# w_comment

created: 2001-07-24 17:33:25
subject: <b>About Morgase and her treaty</b>
body:
Wait a tick, Elayne has by now accepted the fact that her mother is dead as a door nail and moved on with her life. When Valda sent her the letter saying that Morgase was alive she burned it up on the spot in a rage that he'd try to soil her mothers memory like that.<br /><br />   So if Valda showed up with a treaty signed by Morgase Trakand, Elayne would not even acknowledge it at all. THis might start a war with the white cloaks when she needs stability the most. That give Galad the inevitable 'two rights' situation that forces him to re-evaluate his life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 22:51:25
subject: <b>THE BORDERLANDERS</b>
body:
Elayne made a pact with the borderlanders to have them march on Camelyn so that she can get the throne using the game of houses. She promised in return she would reveal where Rand is. The armies are from the borderlanders and are split between their respective contries to making them different armies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 23:23:33
subject: <b>Balwer said</b>
body:
that the Whitecloaks battled the Seanchan 10 days ago 100 miles to the West. I know Perrin's storyline is 14 days behind Elayne's but man that's a lot of travelling.<br />And why go to Aringill and come from the East.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-25 00:29:13
subject: <b>Can't be the borderlanders</b>
body:
To the person a couple of post above<br /><br />Elayne had only just come back from seeing the borderlanders when she was told about the approaching armies. The message would have come by pidgeon and I don't think pidgeons can move as fast as people when they are Travelling.


created: 2001-07-25 08:29:28
subject: <b>In response to Blind Dog</b>
body:
A person could have spotted the borderlanders coming and then ridden in do Camelyn to tell the palace it does not have to be sent by pigeon and even if it was a pigeon can make it back in the same time they are not slow creatures.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 20:09:22
subject: <b>East</b>
body:
The Borderlanders are still in Braem Wood, in the north. Else they must have learned to travel- but how?<br /><br />I think this may part of the four:<br /><br />-help of Cairhieriens for Elayne<br />-some Aiels/new formed Clans of Cair. to go to Faile<br />-some Nobles against El.<br />-parts of the old Kings Guard<br /><br />This is what I think, folk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-26 03:25:08
subject: <b>BLACK TOWER</b>
body:
If WCs tried to invide Andor Asha'men would not be very happy and they would wipe WCs out and Children should know that fact. So I think that WCs will stay away from Andor. BT is very near to Caemlyn, so they could not allow any hostile force to control that city. Children hate all channelers, so it would be logical move for Asha'men to kill all WCs they meet. BT has somekind of agreement with Elayne, so it would be sensible that BT will protect Elayne against any power, which doesn't have somekind of mutual understanding with BT. So if I wanted to remove Elayne, first thing I would do would be contacting Taim and asking his permission to attac. Anybody who would not have that permission would be in deep trouble unless they have a lot of firepower.


created: 2001-07-26 08:39:43
subject: <b>more</b>
body:
Only powers that has more firepower than BT are Seanchan and Shara empires, The Shadow and Aiels. Assuming that they could and would send all their forces against BT. However Asha'men could easily wipe out anyone of their armies. Children would not last 5 minutes against whole power of BT. In Dumai Wells Shaido had 40000 warriors and over 200 WOs and they lasted only that 5 minutes against 200 Asha'men and Shaido lost more men than Valda has under his command. Black tower has now more channelers, so the battle between Asha'men and Children would be even worse to Children than Dumai Wells was to Shaido.


created: 2001-07-27 18:00:31
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Good idea here, although I am apparently not alone in my confusion of which way the three armies are moving.  <br />Good point about the Black Tower, PTH.  The BT does have a certain measure of control in the area -- although if Rand is smart he will let Elayne do her own fighting rather than try to help.  She doesn't want his interference in Andor after what he pulled following Rahvin's death.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 21:47:56
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Actually, I don't think that the Aiel could match the Black Tower.  In that kind of fight, only channelers matter, and I don't think the Aiel have more than about 1000 or 1500.  That's a large number, to be sure, but remember they don't use the power very much.  I would put my money on the Black Tower.<br /><br />I think it's possible that the army is Whitecloaks, but it won't do them any good.  Elayne is firmly convinced that her mother is dead.  Even IF Valda somehow convinced her the treaty was genuine, Elayne would not honor it.  Remember, by the time Morgase got to Amador, Rand had blown away Rahvin and taken control of Andor (well, sort of).  Morgase was not the queen anymore.<br />I don't think it matters, tho.  There's not a shot in hell that a whitecloak army will make it to Caemlyn.  There's an Andoran army on the border of Ghealdan, remember?  They were there to meet Egwene.  Even if they made it past them, the Whitecloaks would surely attack the Black Tower (remember, they wanted to attack Salidar, with it's 300 or so Aes Sedai, so impossible odds mean nothing to them).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 23:38:35
subject: <b>not Whitecloaks</b>
body:
First off there has never been 20,000 Whitecloaks.  Second there are only around 1,000 that survived and escaped from the Seanchan.  And lastly the armies in Caemlyn are coming from the east, whereas any Whitecloak survivers would have approached from the south-west, as that would be the quickest way to Caemlyn from Amadicia.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 14:02:58
subject: <b>not the right direction</b>
body:
I like the Whitecloak idea; especially bringing Galad into the picture.  I think that he is meant for bigger things later.  However, the armies are coming from the east.  When is Loial coming back?  Could he be coming with his people from Stedding Shangtai?  How about Gawyn and the Younglings?


created: 2001-08-06 10:02:09
subject: <b>Not Ogier</b>
body:
For Small Armies. abut 20,000 or 30,000 altogether. I think U can discount the Ogier cause surely they would have notices that some of them were 8 ft tall.


created: 2001-12-06 10:57:01
subject: <b>Andoran Armies</b>
body:
I got the impression the 4 armies were the other houses moving against Elayne so they could take the throne<br /><br />Krane


created: 2001-07-24 15:05:12
subject: <b>Being A Warder is No Reason Not to Guard Lan</b>
body:
I think it's a great theory.  I also think that there's no reason why Elyas couldn't be BOTH a Warder AND Lan's bodyguard.  After all, every nation had its Aes Sedai advisors - the White Tower is the equivalent of the Vatican in medieval Europe.  So even after Malkier fell, the White Tower had a continuing political interest in keeping the heir of Malkier alive, so as to one day hope to reclaim the nation from the Blight or raise him under the care of the White Tower to then marry him off to an eligible princess or lady to cement political ties with the Borderlands and other nations.  And where there are Aes Sedai, there are Warders (unless we're talking about Red Sisters).  And who makes better bodyguards and personal trainers than Warders?  Don't forget who was teaching Rand fencing throughout the first couple of books (not to mention helping to keep him alive).<br /><br />For all we know, Elyas being a Warder might have also influenced Lan's decision to become a Warder himself.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 15:37:47
subject: <b>Elyas not one of the five</b>
body:
According to New Spring 5 bodyguards survived when escorting Lan from Malkier. On the next page, after Bukama comments to Lan: &quot;Bukama had carried him out of Malkier tied to his back. The last of the five. Bukama had the right of a free tongue even when it touched Lan's carneira.&quot;<br /><br />Most definitely implying that the others are dead<br /><br />(It could also mean that they are gone but in the same section of NS. Bukama wouldn't break an oath to save his own life. There is no way the other 4 would have broken their oaths and left Lan)


created: 2001-07-24 15:46:34
subject: <b>Maybe not the five, but a valid theory.</b>
body:
I have to say, the hair thing also looks Shienaran (I think, or some other still existing borderland).  Still, with the sword, that's a good point.  I would think Lan could have more than 5 tutors during the course of his life.  I'm not sure how little baby Lan was when Malkier fell, but Elyas might have taught Lan and then left to be a warder, and then another number 5 teacher ascended.<br /><br />HOWEVER...<br /><br />Warders also receive sword training, a lot of blademasters are warders.  I expect that at the very least Lan would have furthered his training after being bonded.  Little Lanny wasn't THAT old that he knew everything there was to know about sword fighting.  Further, the Tower knows more about the Blight than many borderlanders.  The borderlanders have practical knowledge, but Tower knowledge is deeper.  So Elyas could just have been a warder tutor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 17:46:58
subject: <b>Says who?</b>
body:
Since when has it been explicitly stated that the Aes Sedai know more of the blight than the people who live at it's border?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 19:44:32
subject: <b>::sigh::</b>
body:
i think the theory of Elyas being one of Lan's bodyguards to be fairly sound. it would help explain how Elyas has skills that seem to surpass a regular Warder, and border more along the lines of a soldier like Lan. <br /><br />I do think that Lan's age is a bit overestimated. It can be assumed that WotLand is similar in many ways to our mediveal times, in which case people dont live past 50. But, since WotLand seems to be better off, they may live to be 60 or possibly even 70. I would put Lan's age in EoTW in his mid 30's. Same with Moiraine. <br /><br />Also, Lan was not taught by 5 soldiers. there were 20 Elite Malkieri soldiers given the job of carrying their Uncrowned King through the Blight and into Shienar. Five survived, all of whom were wounded. Their oath was to carry him to safety, out of the Blight, not remain with him until their last breath. An Aes Sedai may have been on-hand, Healing the five Elite's and offering them jobs as Warders, while Lan was raised in Shienar [ i think thats where he grew up anyway ]. Lan was taught the sword and the Blight partially in his journey through it, and also from growing up in the Borderlands<br /><br />Elyas was Warder before he was Wolfbrother. Which is why they tried to gentle him, which is why he had to kill a Warder to escape.<br /><br /><br />one final note, the Tar Valon witches dont know didly squat about the Blight. for them, it looks ugly, so why bother going in? Maybe one or two Borderland Blue's are different, when they arent pouting, but for the most part, Aes Sedai have enough trouble keeping their self-assumed yet out-landish duties in hand to worry about the Blight. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />s     X     e


created: 2001-07-24 20:34:18
subject: <b>Elyas the Malkieri</b>
body:
Its entirely possible that Elyas fled Malkeir went the proverbial Sh*t hit the fan, know what I mean? Malkeir was betrayed to the Blight and Elyas got the hell out of there, we know Lan is <b>*NOT*</b> the last Malkeir but only the last honoring their traditions. We see in NS that there is a bunch but they are slowly adopting the ways of other lands..Suppose Elyas went to the Tower, became a warder then after Moriaine bonded Lan and they went back to the Tower he met up with Elyas and they trained together?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> The Lucky One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tweak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Jack of Hearts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Hand of Enchantment<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 21:37:18
subject: <b>Ages</b>
body:
Lan and Moraine may be around 30 physically speaking, since both Aes Sedai and Warders age slowly (Aes Sedai more slowly than Warders), but there's no way that they are <i>really</i> in their 30s.<br /><br />If so, that would mean that Lan and Moraine were both 10 years old in New Spring (which occurred approximately 20 years before the present story).  At age 10, Moraine wouldn't have even been in the Tower yet, much less be a full (if relatively young) Aes Sedai.  And Lan had obviously passed through puberty <i>long</i> before New Spring.<br /><br />Say Moraine went to the tower at age 16 (as being of a noble household, she probably would have been found sooner rather than later).  And say she became a full Aes Sedai after only 5 years.  Then allow arout a year before New Spring started, since Moraine obviously wasn't just beginning her journey.  And then add approximately twenty years between New Spring and the regular series.  That puts Moraine in her low 40s.<br /><br />And if Lan was around 20 at the time of New Spring, then this would put his age at about 40, and probably more rather than less.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 07:43:20
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
Regardless of whether or not Elyas was Lan's bodyguard, I can see Elyas being the one to rid the world of Slayer. He would probably recognise Isam and given his experience of the wolf-dream is competent enough to kill him.


created: 2001-07-25 20:28:34
subject: <b>Excuse me???</b>
body:
Excuse me people? Remember, Elyas ran away from his Aes Sedai.  Lan could have remembered him as a Warder, or heard the rumors that a Warder named Elyas had run away. He could be under the obligation to find this run-away Warder. Now, there could be a bounty on his head, since the probable story surrounding Elyas is that he is a Darkfriend, seeing as how a lot of people (with the exception of Lan and Moiraine) believe that those who run with wolves are touched by the Dark One himself.  Lan, being honor bound that he is, would decide that it is his duty to find out why a Warder would run away from his loving Aes Sedai.  And then labeled a Darkfriend.  Of course his proverbial ears would perk up at the mention of his name.<br /><br />&lt;sigh&gt;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 21:22:09
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Although Elyas may be Malkieri, I believe that New Spring disproves the<br />existance of any surviving bodyguards. Lan and Elyas may have been friends<br />(they have both been warders), or it's possible that Elyas gained some sort of <br />reputation among warders after fleeing his Aes Sedai. <br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Nae'blis in Training <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Fan of Pepe le Pew <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Reader of Chaos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> The Man with The Plan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />            Cavrin<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am a worker&quot; <br />-The Prophet Muhammad<br /><br />&quot;A lot of people think right-wingers aren't capable of being amusing at all. Not true. Mussolini looked hilarious swinging from that lamppost.&quot;<br />-Charlie Brooker</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 23:53:12
subject: <b>Elyas and Lan knew each other</b>
body:
In EotW on page 579 in the paperback version, Perrin asked Lan if he knew Eylas, and Lan responded with &quot;I knew him.  He taught me much, about the Blight, and about this. [Lan touched his sword hilt.] He was a warder, before...before what happened.&quot; (This is in the 3rd full paragraph from the top of the page.)<br /><br />So that proves that Lan did know Eylas and that also proves that at least Eylas was from the Borderlands b/c even before Lan became a warder he courted death in the Blight like a bridegroom courts a bride (said later in EotW and in TGH) and it would take more than 5 guys to help train Lan if he became as good as he did and if Aes Sedai really were interested in Lan, why didn't they bond Lan after he was old enough to realize how good it would help him?  I don't think that they had any clue where he was b/c of the whole meeting with Moraine and how she had to find him and everything (I could be wrong here b/c i haven't read TGH for a while, so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong).<br /><br />I would assume that since Eylas is a lot older than Lan b/c of him showing his age (i'd say that he was as much older as Lan as Lan is older than Rand), that more than likely he came from Malkieri, but that he wasn't a bodyguard for Lan b/c he would've already been bonded by then b/c i'd assume that the Aes Sedai don't bond warders that are really old, so he would've had had to be stationed in one of the Borderlands wither right before it happened and convinced his Aes Sedai to stay by Lan in order to help train him, or that the Amyrlin Seat sent him with his Aes Sedai b/c he was from there and that he would help to raise Lan in the correct way as she say it.<br />That's about it as far as i know right now. (This is my 1st submission for anything, so i'd appreciate anything that might tighten my logic or anything that needs correction)


created: 2001-07-26 00:51:12
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
thats wrong<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> shaza <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />putzmeister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Poimpet of the Poimps&#8482;<br />resident asshole<br />Voice of the People<br />Protector of the Down With The Capital S Shack<br />Typo Master<br />Founder of the Way of shaza&#8482;<br />Best Gosh Darn Dog in the West<br /><br />shaza?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 16:26:08
subject: <b>the ages?</b>
body:
Well based on the 'new spring book'.....about lan and moiraine i think the age of lan is actually closer to 47 (well rond abouts neway) and  bukama.....the only lasting of all of Lan's teachers/protectors was a fair old age of about 50-60 when lan was only 25!.....so i never pictured elyas being old enough to be 1 of them.....nice try though!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-29 03:39:03
subject: <b>About the admin's comment...</b>
body:
He stated something along the lines of &quot;maybe Elyas became a warder to save his sanity after becoming a wolf brother&quot;. Ehhhnn, wrong...his wolfbrother blessings didn't appear until after he was a warder. I forget in which book, but he talks about how a Brown Aes Sedai knew why his eyes changed Gold...which means he was a warder at the time. I also subscribe to the warder training rather than the baby smuggling...because quite frankly Elyas wouldn't break that kind of word, as has been aforementioned.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />G0dMoridin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-30 17:10:33
subject: <b>Elyas</b>
body:
This is a nice theory, however it forgets one crucial piece of information.  We're told hands down that of the five who escort baby-Lan out of Malkier, all of them die, except for Bukama (?) who died in New Spring.<br /><br />So he might be Malkieri, however I don't think he could be one of those who escorted Lan from Malkier. Because...where'd he go?  Why wasn't he mentioned in this case?


created: 2001-07-31 12:49:54
subject: <b>I agree with the above post</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 13:47:37
subject: <b>Elyas the Malkieri &amp; his Aes Sedai</b>
body:
When Nyneave was being tested for Accepted, she encountered a woman called Rina. We later discover that this was the name of Elyas' Aes Sedai. Within the false reality of the ter'angreal Rina is Lan &amp; Nyneave's advisor. Does this not strengthen a link between Elyas &amp; the Malkieri?


created: 2001-08-05 02:07:12
subject: <b>about the above post</b>
body:
In TGH, the name of the Aes Sedai advisor to Malkier in Ny's Accepted test is named Sherina...as in the old woman who's very strong in the power and found by the traveling Salidar sisters in one of the later books.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Bard Burner Extraordinaire<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of Changing Titles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">AshaMan-at-work, who's real name is &quot;Jon Snow&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> WARG! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Mass Genocide is the second most exhausting sport after soccer.</i> - Loki, &quot;Dogma&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 13:31:09
subject: <b>Re: Elyas the Malkieri?</b>
body:
After reading all your comments, I think that if Elyas is Malkieri, then he left before Lan was smuggled out, and that Lan met him after coming to the Tower with Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Monotype corsiva">Martin<br />-------<br /><font color="grey">The world's finest. Est. 1984.</font></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="grey"><b>I was tanned, dirty and hot.</b> -Fanatic</font><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 00:31:29
subject: <b>Elyas</b>
body:
Lan said Elyas 'was a warder, before...before what happened' so if Elyas was Malkieri then that would possibly mean he became a warder before Malkieri fell. Lan would have meet up with him later in the White Tower and being both Malkieri they would have trained each other what they know and so on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Bounty Hunter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> WWE Intercontinental Champion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br />~Proud Native of the Sunny Beaches of Canada City~<br /><br />&quot;When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons, and make super-lemons.&quot; ~ Principle Scudworth</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 17:20:07
subject: <b>Elyas' Aes Sedai, Rina</b>
body:
If you recall, Rina is the name of the Aes Sedai whom Egwene met when she was a damane, the one who told her to remember Rina of the Yellow Ajah (I think it was yellow, anyway).  If memory serves me, then Rina was rename Pura, and Pura is now a loyal damane who we meet again in either Path of Daggers or Winter's Heart, as one of either Tuon's or Suroth's damane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 00:08:12
subject: <b>Pura the Damane</b>
body:
Pura's actual name is Ryma (TGH, Falme, pg 600 in paperback).  Unless there was a mistake that's been corrected in a later printing, or light forbid RJ made an error.<br /><br />I kind of hope Pura IS Elyas' AS as there's a good chance they might meet in COT.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 12:10:18
subject: <b>Maybe like this?</b>
body:
Elyas is a Malkieri who escaped to the northlands, and was there when Lan got smuggled out.<br /><br />Could be only 5 to 10 years older, and then is an ideal age to be the &quot;big brother&quot; of Lan as they fight the blight.  <br /><br />Elyas follows Lan to the tower...


created: 2002-12-20 20:39:00
subject: <b>I don't think he's Malkieri</b>
body:
In New Spring, it mentioned that some Malkieri warriors who had abandoned their customs when Malkier fell still had marks on their foreheads from the hadori. Elyas doesn't have any such marks. Then again, lack of hadori marks don't prove anything, I guess.


created: 2004-03-14 16:18:19
subject: <b>Interesting, but not possible</b>
body:
Bukama was the last surviving of Lan's guards. If Lan knew Elyas from somewhere it was probably because they were both Warders. Although New Spring does say that others escaped Malkier I also believe they died in the book.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-22 08:38:58
subject: <b>new New Spring</b>
body:
I wonder if anyone will make an updated version of this theory now the Extended NS has been released - in which Elyas appears. <br />Well here's the quote:<br />pg 115 New Spring hardcover &quot;The Itch&quot;.<br />&quot; Two others [warders], in shirtsleeves, were practicing with wooden swords in a broad side corridor, the bundled lathes clattering with each swift blow.<br />Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, 'Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!' For size, they might have been twins though one was dark and clean-shaven, the other fair, with a short beard.&quot;<br />Some of the extra information about Lan may also be useful to some degree, and Rina may have appeared at other bits which I missed.


created: 2004-04-02 15:59:15
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Unfortunately, New Spring tells us that Lan's last bodyguard was not Elyas but someone else. (sorry, can't reme,ber his name) I do beleive that Elyas WAS mentioned in New Spring though, somewhere in the Tower training or sparring when he was a warder. Ill have to hunt this down though.


created: 2004-10-28 22:37:19
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
In NS the hardcover it mentions many of the Malkier survivors had melted into the other borderlands. Thus I think the reason many want the Crane to fly again still not so many years after New Spring takes place. Many of them were young then. <br /><br />I think there is more to this story than is being told.<br />I think we might get more in more of the prequels.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-24 00:45:00
subject: <b>I dont think so</b>
body:
The only reason that I disagree with this theory is that Elyas was a Warder. I don't think that he would have become a warder if he was supposed to raise Lan. He wouldn't have had time for both.


created: 2005-05-02 15:52:07
subject: <b>To Those of You</b>
body:
Who discount this theory solely because of the supposed &quot;oath&quot; that would hold Elyas to Lan. The oath was to get Lan to safety, it had nothing to do with raising him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-26 04:16:36
subject: <b>TALENT</b>
body:
Personally I think that one must have talent for Compulsion to be able to use Compulsion. So if person have strong talent for Compulsion (s)he can have better control over his/hers victims than person who has weaker talent. Experience also helps. For instance Graendal who was Mindhealer, and so has very strong talent for Compulsion, during AoL and has a lot of experience can control people better than any Asha'men. Strenght in OP also helps, if person have talent, but if person don't have that talent (s)he cannot use Compulsion at all. There is a possibility that sex is also important, but major factor to me is that talent for Compulsion. Average male is stronger that average female. So it is very difficult to find out if reason for better success of males is their sex or their strenght.<br /> In fact I got a picture that during early books of WoT it was impossible to do anything with power unless person had talent for that thing, but it seems that RJ has changed rules. For instance at first only those people who had talent for Traveling could Travel, but now anybody who knows right weave and is strong enough to use that weave can Travel. Healing seems still depend on talent, so WOs cannot Heal anybody, but demand of talents is lower than during early books.


created: 2001-07-26 08:55:16
subject: <b>MORE</b>
body:
Another thing is that women who could channel fire should be very rare, but they don't seem to have any problems of using that. For instance in Dumai Wells all channeling women used weapons weaved with Fire and those weaves were very strong. Damanes could also use Earth weaves anytime they had to destroy something, so rules that said that women with strong power either in Fire or in Earth should be exceptionals have changed. Another thing is that in early books each woman should have affinity only in few powers and women who could use all 5 powers should have been very rare, but now almost any channeler could use either Earth, Fire, Spirit, Air or Water anytime without any problems at all. So RJ had changed that rule also.


created: 2001-07-26 11:02:31
subject: <b>to PTH.....</b>
body:
do you by any chance, stutter???    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-26 15:00:09
subject: <b>pth's....post....</b>
body:
It was never stated that women could NOT channel Fire and Earth. Meerly that they werent as good with it as they are with Wind/Air and Water.<br /><br />Think about it this way. If a female channeler wanted to put out a fire, she would use Water on it. If a male channeler wanted to put out a fire, he would meerly suck the flames away with Fire. Femme-channelers cant do this ( remember back to TSR, when Egwene and Elyane think about one of the novices/Accepted who burns her arm trying to suck flames away with Fire ).<br /><br />Any person who can channel can use any of the Five powers.  &quot; Talents &quot; usually refer to a certain type of weave that the person is good with ( Moghedien, when she attacks Nyneave and almost kills her, thinks that if she had only been a little better at Compulsion her life wouldve been so much easier, and Graendal, a few times, says she was prolly the greatest Compulsionist in the AoL. Only one or two Asha'man can Heal, and not all Aes Sedai are good at it. Then theres the Kin woman who can bend a shield into a circle ). <br /><br />If a woman tried to use the weave-attack the Asha'man used at Dumani Wells, they probably wouldnt be able to pull it off. They might be able to find a way to do the same thing, only woven differently, but weaving the exact same thing, with the same powers, for them is impossible ( remember that Saidin makes a Gateway by boring a hole, and Saidar makes two places the same ).<br /><br />Basically, ALL CHANNELERS can use the Five Powers. Two channelers might be equal in power, or near to it, but they woudl have very different powers in weave's. One might be an exellent Healer, while the other can barely Heal a papercut. Men are most skilled with Fire and Earth. Women are most skilled with Air and Water. Men and Women are equally skilled with Spirit. However, Men are almost always stronger than women ( in the sense that it takes more to over-power them, more to match them. Rand can shield and toy with Egwene and Elayne, who are prolly in the top 10-Most-Powerful-Femme Channelers. The Forsaken might push them into the top 20, but their still two of the most powerful seen since the Age of Legends ).<br /><br /><br />on another note, it was stated in the original post that Lanfear couldnt Compulse Rand because he was so much more powerful in the Power than her. Think to FFH. Lanfear almost killed Rand ( true, she had an angreal, but even without that, she was still a very good match for her ). <br />Compulsion definetly isnt one of Lanfear's more powerful Talents ( id have to say sliceing saidin-weaves has to be her best Talent  ). In fact, i dont even think she ever used Compulsion on Rand or anybody else. It might have been because it was almost impossible to do with Rand, it could be because shes not good at it, or it could just be because she prefers to talk to them and make them see how she see's without the use of the Power. Wheneve someone see's her ( well...before she died and all ) they always commented on how beautiful she was, which probably helped her think she could convince someone of something by just talking to them. She could've Compulsed Mat when he was in Tar Valon, since even a small use of Compulsion would've let he think one thing, and to use him, but she didnt. so.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-26 19:09:30
subject: <b>PTH - learn of the Power</b>
body:
Talents aren't so much requirements, not most of them at least, as  they are aptitudes.  Somebody with Talent for healing is better than somebody without the Talent.  It's like real life: just because you don't have any talent whatsoever for art doesn't mean that you can't draw a recognizable house.  There are Talents that are prerequisite to what you have the Talent for, for example foretelling, but those are rare among Talents.  They can be likened to skill in computer programming.  Somebody with no talent whatsoever for programming cannot make a good program (and it would be sheer luck if they could make a program at all).  As the above guy said, the same goes for the 5 weaves: people have different aptitudes in each.<br /><br />As for the theory, I mostly agree.  I have to mention, though, that you shouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility that Ta'veren might shield against compulsion.  In fact, that would explain why Lanfear didn't compulse Mat (perhaps she's a great compeller, even against men, but all her enemies are immune.  Poor thing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).  After all, the explanation DOES make sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-27 12:42:45
subject: <b>props to pth but you talk too much(stutter)</b>
body:
i mostly agree with this theory &amp; thought it was well written .but MAN pth litterally ate up the comment board.which is the part of the theory post i like.I like to hear other peoples thoughts but pth ate this comment up.while you had a good point id like it if you could not take up all 16 posts PLEASE!!!!! thanx peace favor your sword<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">uglykidrand<br />&quot;peace favor your sword&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 14:49:50
subject: <b>weave strength</b>
body:
I think many of the Damane can wield Earth and Fire so well because that's all they were ever trained to do. Have we ever seen a damane heal? Yet almost every Aes Sedai can heal a bruise at the least, because it's part of their training. Egwene even says that she was prized for her ability to work with Earth, which is an instinctive aptitude. Moirane, too, seems to have greater strength with Earth and Fire than most female channelers (remmeber the earthquake in EotW?).<br /><br />Wise Ones cannot heal because they never learned how, IMO. Asha'man who can heal have the talent for it and do it instinctively (Narishma, isn't it? I hope it wasn't the Forsaken, that would blow my theory here). <br /><br />I definitely agree with the poster who said Talents are instinctive, whereas anyone with sufficient strength can 'learn' to do a weave, at least passably well. It's the difference between Rembrandt and someone who uses Rembrandt paints. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />LTT


created: 2001-07-28 15:13:46
subject: <b>There must be truth</b>
body:
That does it. New rule if you're going to talk about gender issues you have to name the thread with the word gender. If you use the word SEX it HAS to involve sexual interaction. I will now have to come up with a theory involving sex to illustrate my point.<br /><br />  By the way great work dude.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 00:02:24
subject: <b>Sex Compulsion of the FIRST type</b>
body:
I don't know how many people noticed, but the type of sex Compulsion you referred to (e.g. getting that &quot;hot&quot; stewardess to drop it and come to the lavatory with you) has already been performed on someone.<br /><br />Remember Lan?  Right.  His bond now resides with Myrelle, who thinks it necessary to put her Warders &quot;in the bed of a woman&quot; (in her case, her own) in order to save them from the death of their previous Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Now I can't honestly see Lan saying, &quot;Yes, Myrelle, let's go off and do that--I don't <i>actually</i> love Nynaeve, I only pretend because I want to see how she reacts and see if she loves me.&quot;  In other words, Myrelle used their bond to Compel Lan into joining her for a little action usually reserved for husbands and wives.<br /><br />What does everyone think?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 20:00:25
subject: <b>This is what I thought...</b>
body:
LTT, it was Flimm (Flinn? can't remember) who could Heal.  Narishima is the current wielder of Callandor. They are the only two Asha'man alive that Rand trusts, in part because Flimm could heal him.  <br />Kaiser Karl, I got the impression that Myrelle had transferred the warder bond to Nynaeve, which would simplify matters.  Besides, do you think Myrelle would do it more than once, after Nynaeve heard about it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 15:14:56
subject: <b>makes sense....</b>
body:
This theory would also help explain why the male a'dam Nyneave and Elayne found had 2 bracelets.  I remember Moghedien explaining to Nyneave that 2 would lessen the bracelet wearer's chances of &quot;catching&quot; the male channeler's madness, but maybe it also has something to do with it being easier for a woman to control a man if she's linked to another woman. <br /><br />


created: 2006-11-13 16:37:50
subject: <b>The weaves for compulsion</b>
body:
<br />I can't remember the book, but when Nynaeve was in Tanchico I  I think, the elements of the Compulsion weave are stated.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I cannot remember all of them.  There were three, and one was Water.<br /><br />I do not think there are any gender bonuses or weaknesses other than that which you see in the Power.  I think it is solely a matter of Channelers vs. non-channellers and Channelers vs. Channelers in both Compulsion and in Warder bond, and how strong they are.  I think because Logain was stronger than the girls he bonded made a difference.  Perhaps because men are stronger in the power that they usually got the better end of it, and so we are given the sense that the slant is due to gender itself rather than the power granted from that gender, which is almost the same thing, but not exactly.<br /><br />-Morgase could not channel, or barely whicker a candle if at all, which would make Rahvin's control over Morgase a situation of channeler vs. non-channeler, rather than channeler vs. channeler, and I think should be struck as evidence for or against gender bias.<br /><br />Speculation:<br />When I first read about a warder bond between two channelers, I thought back about weave inversion to conceal channeling.  It would be interesting if the subjugated can reverse the direction of the bond to become the master, and vice versa.


created: 2008-05-08 00:14:02
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
Its been stated numerous times that Graendal is THE master of Compulsion. No one, not Rahvin, not Lanfear, not even Moridin is more skilled. But why?<br /><br />Well, the answer is pretty obvious..<br /><br />Compulsion is about more than just strength and weaves, its about knowledge. Graendal was one of the foremost, if not THE foremost, experts on matters of the mind. This is stated in the Guide and is reinforced by the fact that she, unlike many of the Forsaken, had earned the third name in the AoL (she was known as Kamarile Maradim Nindar). Not even Lanfear had earned a third name in the AoL. Obviously, you had to be of massive importance to receive a third name. So, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Graendal was the most premiere expert on matters of the mind, which would explain her Compulsion expertise as well. Compulsion is not merely about execution, its also about application.<br /><br />Also, your only real argument against Graendal's skill comes from her running from the Asha'men. You should know that Graendal does not &quot;do&quot; direct confrontation, especially when it isn't on her terms.


created: 2008-05-08 00:18:21
subject: <b>Oh, and one more thing.</b>
body:
One more thing:<br /><br />Remember when Moggy and Cyndane showed up at Graendal's palace and Graendal threw them both under Compulsion? Although Cyndane was more powerful than Graendal, she still fell easily under her control. Even under stressful and tense circumstances, Graendal was able to control not only one powerful channeler, but two.


created: 2001-07-28 13:43:31
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
This theory makes sense.  It explains why the Forsaken, who have MUCH more experience and knowledge than Rand/Moiraine/Nynaeve, are killed off like flies.  The Dragon must survive to the Last Battle and any attempt to keep that from happening will be thwarted.  Good theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 15:22:54
subject: <b>You hit the freekin nail man....</b>
body:
/....now all the other nails are going to gang up upon you.<br /><br />   Seriously every now and again I find a theory that clicks as right from the git go. This is one of those theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 16:15:12
subject: <b>forsaken deaths....</b>
body:
Not all Forsaken Death's are meerly because the Pattern says so. People always say that because the Forsaken know so much it should be amazingly hard for Rand or any female channeler to beat them. But, look at Nyneave Vs. Moghedien in Tanchicho. They are equally matched in the One Power, and The Spider's great knoledge didnt do didly squat to help her. Sometimes the ego the Forsaken have works to their disadvantage. Bathamael and Aginor for instance. they thought themselves completely invincible, but one was killed by a plant, and the other by a man who didnt even know he could channel. Be'lal died of his ego, since he thought he could lure the Dragon into the Stone, make him take Callandor, then kill him and take it, but he didnt think that MAYBE one of those un-trainted girls would know how to use balefire. Sammael probably did the best job of fighting Rand, because he had a backup plan. Rahvin did the saidin-tracking-weave too, but he didnt count on being over-whelmed and then killed. Sammael had an escape plan, but i guess he didnt count on being taken out by the very enviorment. Their ego's are always their downfall. Part of it maybe part of the Pattern's plan, but some of it is just the Forsaken getting themselves in too deep.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-28 18:40:22
subject: <b>What can I say?</b>
body:
Well done! This is one of the best theories I have seen on this page, and it is so obvious that no one could see it, which is RJ's way. Good one!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 20:33:13
subject: <b>im freaked out</b>
body:
well after reading this theory i have come ot the conclusion that wot fans are crazy. you guys talk about wot as if its an alternate reality that realy exists. i think everyone at this site needs a year or two away from anything owt related and then eveyrone will become sane again. listen people, ITS A BOOK!!!!!!!! the forsaken were killed because rj wanted them killed off. thats the end of it. you people act as if the story in the books is real and it really is happening or happpened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JACKAROO<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 21:03:59
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
When Rand went through the Portal Stones and saw some of his possible lives he didn't necessarily fight in Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 21:55:06
subject: <b>Blasphemy!!!</b>
body:
It is NOT just a book!  The world is, in fact, real!!  Robert Jordan is a sort of prophet, linked to the pattern, and is spitting out the story as it filters through to him!  Kill jackaroo, the unbeliever!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 03:32:54
subject: <b>You have received enough praise...</b>
body:
But, more couldn't hurt.  Though the theory kinda is obvious, (Similar to the modern day &quot;'Cause god wanted it that way&quot; ) do not take that as putting yourself or the theory down, it still does manage to cover most of the bases in the book.  (As it does, in a different, ignorant sort of way in life)<br /><br />One qualm I do have with this theory though (While it is quite a blanket statement, which really cannot be argued against), is the nature of the statement.  It seems a bit too much like the &quot;Because the Pattern Said So&quot; type defense, my parents use. (Yes, they tell me to go haul rocks out in the backyard because the pattern wove that into the days exploits)  It is one of those kinda bs defenses which acts as an ultimatum.  But, again, the theory is fairly rock hard, that is partly my qualm with it.  (Hehe)<br /><br /><br />Another qualm about the Shaidar Haran thing though, not quite sure on this one, (Other than the implication of Moridin being Shaidar Haran), but isn't Shaidar Haran bound in some respects to Shayol Ghul?  I kind of got that impression, (I do not recall him elsewhere in the books) that he really cannot stray far at all from it (I.E. out of the blight).  Just something I would like clarification on, if anyone has evidence to the contrary and whatnot.<br /><br />Once again though sir, kudos on bringing light to the masses.<br /><br />JMoridin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> One. Cool. Guy.


created: 2001-07-29 09:02:45
subject: <b>I agree with the above...</b>
body:
On the last point of the above, Shadar Haran IS bound to Shayol Ghul, we don't know how bound, and I don't think it would matter in this situation (didn't he make it to Graendal's palace in Arad Doman?  Or is it somewhere else?)<br /><br />However, that theory kind of makes all the non-last battle books pointless, doesn't it? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> (now THERE'S a brain-bender).<br /><br />As for Jackaroo who is frightened by us...<br /><br />None of us believe wot exists (unless you believe in infinite parallel universes of infinite varitey which could include magic, in which case Wotworld MUST exist, but that is rather a niche group).  However, it is extremelymuch easier to type in a familiar present tense than to subtend every sentence with &quot;..., not to imply this is real or anything&quot;<br /><br />As for the Forsaken were killed off because RJ wanted to kill them off...<br /><br />So, WHY did he want to kill them off?  Let us have our fun.  You're one of those people who, if they believed in destiny, would say &quot;the future can't change, why try?&quot; when of course even believing in destiny that's the exact wrong thing to think.<br /><br />As for a year or two off of WoT...<br /><br />With the exception of reading Winter's Heart for the first time 8 months in, I did that.<br /><br />As for my as for sentences...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 09:03:56
subject: <b>Oops...and as for Mr. Bob...</b>
body:
just because it didn't happen (because the pattern made something else so) doesn't mean it can't happen and thus happenned in an alternate universe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 11:13:51
subject: <b>I don't think you get what I said(or I am not getting what you said)</b>
body:
I don't think that Rand is winning all the time because of the pattern. Many a time has it been stated that he is mortal and could die like the rest of the peeps from WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 16:55:16
subject: <b>As Suian said to Elmidreda</b>
body:
Rand could die, the Pattern isn't going to produce a miracle to save him.  It didn't get him out of the way of that arrow in PoD, did it?  If Flinn (I think) hadn't been there, the Dragon would have never made it to the Last Battle.<br /><br />I'm not saying you're not right to a point, though.  Heck, it may be part of the Kathereon Cycle for Rand to &quot;Destroy the Darkness that had forsaken the Light.&quot;  I just don't think that he's invincible.


created: 2001-07-29 20:16:25
subject: <b>C'mon, let's give Rand a LITTLE credit here, guys</b>
body:
The last couple of dead Forsaken were done in by Rand's skills and power just as much as anything else.  Look at the attack on Sammael in Illian.  Good tactical thinking.  Ever since Asmodean taught Rand how to seize saidin consistently Rand has done pretty well for himself; he doesn't really need the Pattern to back him up now that he has a few trustworthy Aes Sedai and Asha'man to watch his back, plus the chodan kal for emergencies.<br />Knave's got a good point, too.  The Forsaken used to be pretty contemptuous of Rand, although for some reason they seem to have gotten over that.  They were really digging their own graves.  Rahvin seemed to have no real contingency plans for when Rand showed up, for example.  In terms of fighting Rand Sammael did it the best way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 01:18:17
subject: <b>Hold on, people...</b>
body:
I agree with you, not the theory.  However, it is my duty to play devil's advocate, and unleash abject terror amongst the true and righteous.<br /><br />I think Mr. Bob doesn't understand what I'm saying: Rand could die, but under this theory, he just won't (at least until the Last Battle).  I'm pretty sure we agree with that; RJ hasn't finished his books yet, after all!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 15:12:22
subject: <b>I don't think he will die until the Last Battle either</b>
body:
I just don't think it is the Pattern that has kept him alive all this time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 22:57:37
subject: <b>No admin</b>
body:
Does anybody else notice that here is no Admin response to this theory at the bottom of it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 02:37:50
subject: <b>Interesting but...</b>
body:
Cool theory but I doubt it.<br /><br />Rand is not just a 'half trained boy' really - He is supposed to be Lews Therin reborn.  When Rand is facing the Forsaken I think that RJ makes it pretty clear that 'Rand doesn't really know what hes doing' and the skills he is using are drawing on the memories of Lews Therin.<br /><br />Rand has to be at the Last Battle but that doesn't mean he cant die.  <br /><br />There could be any number of ways for Rand to be 'bought back' to life.  Remember Ishy saying that Rand could be just as useful to the DO in death as he was in life?<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-31 17:52:12
subject: <b>Awesome work..</b>
body:
Your explanation is so good it makes me wonder how I missed it. Very good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 01:23:15
subject: <b>Awesome</b>
body:
Great theory, well put, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah, blah, blah, blah.  Now, for the bad stuff.    .....   Hmmm... how about that.  No bad stuff.  Cool.<br /><br />And  also, to you peeps out there against this theory, think.  You can say that the Forsaken deaths were all from bad planning.  But you'd be wrong.  Sammael was about to kill Rand, so, suddenly, Sammael is buried in Madashar.  Balthamel tries to kill Rand, and a Nym, who were almost as pacifistic as Ogier, spontaniously decides to go kill something.  And it is not possible to say the Dragon Reborn's first major act of channeling is not the will of the Pattern.  All the Forsaken who have died trying to kill Rand were eliminated by the Patern.  However, if they are not trying to kill Rand, they may have a chance.  Remember, Nyneave only won the first time because she threw the male a'dam at Moghedien's face.  (and she then lost the next two fights).<br /><br />So, if one of the Forsaken goes after Rand, they're toast, no matter what.  If they go after someone else, who knows what will happen?<br /><br />P.S.  yes, the Dragon Reborn can die, but it is very unlikely (such as slipping and falling off a cliff), and a new one would be born again immediately.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 02:08:11
subject: <b>And also...</b>
body:
	In tGH, (pg 526 paperback) Verin said &quot;You are the Dragon Reborn...Oh, you can die, but I don't think the Pattern will let you die until it is done with you.&quot;<br /><br />Meaning that he could die, potentially, but it will not happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 23:31:29
subject: <b>The Pattern</b>
body:
It may be true that Flinn was the only person who could have saved Rand, but who's to say that the pattern didn't put thim there?


created: 2001-09-08 04:46:01
subject: <b>Definitely not the Pattern.</b>
body:
It would defeat the purpose of the books to kill Rand off before the Last Battle, so there is the reason Rand wins the battle against the Forsaken every time. The reasons for this include such things as his ta'veren status, Lews Therin living in his head, Forsaken arrogance and ta'veren friends. The Pattern is not omnipotent, I would find it a little weird if the Pattern would weave a hole in the Dark One's Prison, which was put there by the Creator, who invented the whole shebang. Counterproductive to include a strong chance of destroying your creation, innit? Peple have the ability to do things that go against the Pattern - balefire, boring a hole in the DO's prison, that kind of thing. Although it is impossible to make great changes, like a farmer (apart from a major character) becoming a king, the application of the One Power in a big way can have a strong non-Pattern impact. Pretty rambly, but that seems standard.


created: 2002-01-06 08:47:39
subject: <b>Joint reasons in tandem...</b>
body:
Not only does the Pattern require Rand to survive until Tarmon Gaidon, but so does the Book. Then again, they are exactly the same thing. Bits of the Pattern have been revealed in advance, thus have bits of the Book. The Book is the Pattern, Robert Jordan is the Creator, and I am...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 22:54:02
subject: <b>What about the question of free will?</b>
body:
I like and dislike your theory. I think that you explain some of Rand's success in the early stage of the battle, but then again that could also be explained by the dead lunatic in his head, who has his moments of lucidity. Part of the problem is that you treat the pattern as though it is synonymous with the creator. As it has been explained the pattern is simply every action of every being, after all there are dark threads as well as light; the dark one seems capable of weaving in black threads with his prophecies of the shadow that are also fufilled along with the light. Getting back to the point, the pattern has no will of its own. At least supposedly this is true. The character's are supposed to have the freedom to choose however they will. On the other hand it does seem that prophecy exists and this could not happen in a world of complete freedom. After all if these actions are pre-determined then they aren't really free. The world of the wheel seems based on the idea that time must be circular and rigid (as fell said the world will eventually reach the point where everyone has forgotten about the DO's existence again). Still there is the possibility of change based on the choices that all of the character's make. So in conclusion the pattern is not protecting Rand nor destroying his enemies it can only be by the actions of another being. So I guess the question that begs to be asked is can the creator manipulate the pattern and thus by his actions affect things behind the scenes if you will? I guess that also would mean that the DO can as well.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> es mejor a ser el mano derecho del diablo en vez de estar contra su camino.<br />


created: 2002-11-22 11:19:29
subject: <b>Not convinced</b>
body:
The problem with the theory is that the only proof that I can see is that Rand hasn't died yet. It can't be disproved as that can only occur if Rand dies before TG,  but I don't think that really is very good evidence. Maybe some of the Forsaken are bored and so they are letting Rand kill them to pass the time till the DO tells them to gather together and destroy him? - the proof is he's managed to kill some of them<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 12:29:29
subject: <b>no silly patern would stop me!</b>
body:
but i agree with you that it is that that appears to be protecting him from the forsaken,fain , narg, bella,stray mountain goats and from his inevitable marrige to not 1 but 3 nagging machines<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 08:47:43
subject: <b>as said quite many a time</b>
body:
awesome theory. I especially like how this explains 'let the lord of Chaos rule'<br /><br />Oh, and Jackaroo, OF COURSE we treat it like it's real. it is, afterall... yes, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> is definitely a prophet. or the dragon reborn getting it all from some madman in his head...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 20:23:20
subject: <b>manipulation of time</b>
body:
Not sure about the theory, but I want to know what happens when you balefire yourself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tmagic77 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />The guy who does stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 20:44:44
subject: <b>Back to the Future</b>
body:
It would be kind of like that.  Rand goes back in time just before his old self arrives.  Remember in back to the future 2 i think, maybe the end of 1, he comes back to present just in time to see his past self leave for the past.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 00:15:21
subject: <b>Hmm....</b>
body:
Tmagic77 gave me an interesting thought with that question. First of all since a balefire stream is required to travel in a straight line (so far as we've seen at least) it'd be a tricky thing to do.<br /><br />   You'd have to open up a travel gate directly in front of you (that is to say the entry gate is in front we'll call it gateA) leading to one behind you (exit gate a.k.a. gateB). Then you channel a bolt of Balefire into gateA and it comes out of gateB to hit you in the back.<br /><br />   Now starts the problem. Unless you managed to use a weak enough bolt to erase you with no drawback trhu time (and assuming that's even possible), you've started a paradox. If you're rewinded to before you ereased yourself then you didn't erase yourself and your back again. If you weren't erased then you sent out that balefire and erased yourself.<br /><br />   Either you'd keep mobving yourself backwards in time (doubtful) or you'd rip the pattern apart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 18:57:36
subject: <b>Ugh!</b>
body:
I have a headache now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 21:15:18
subject: <b>ARRRGHHH . . . my brain hurts . . .</b>
body:
Freak, isn't this series complicated enough as it is?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 08:41:11
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
I don't think the distortion effects of balefire effect the person that uses it.  Remember, every time Rand has used it against a Forsaken, nothing about Rand changes.  The world might shift around him, but he stays put.  I think this is because, if you fire balefire of any strength, it erases your target.  If the time shift effects you, then you never would have fired.  But if you never fired, your target is still there.....<br /><br />It doesn't effect the user, so the bolt would just destroy you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 16:30:58
subject: <b>Good point, Grak!</b>
body:
Thats all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 08:39:44
subject: <b>how bout this one</b>
body:
i dont think that time travel is possible but the mention of gateways got me thinking. you step through a gateway made by someone else. you then balefire the person who made the gateway strongly enough to put you back before you entered the gateway. since the person who made said gateway was balefired, the gateway was never made for you to step through to balefire him, or her <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. therefor, since that person was never balefired, they did make the gateway, you did balefire them and the whole cycle begins anew. does anyone see where im going with this cause i got lost as soon as we started talking about balefire.


created: 2002-02-23 13:18:17
subject: <b>How Balefire works.</b>
body:
Time is always referred to as a pattern. Think of it this way, balefire is like a flame, the stronger the flame, the farther it follows the thread. It isn't that it turns back time, but that it burns that thread from time. It is that simple. ;P


created: 2002-08-14 13:27:01
subject: <b>its easy</b>
body:
its easy if you just think about it.  one if you balfire your self nothing happens, beacuse you get reset to just befor it was cast or how far it is suppost to burn back.  this means from your point of view nothing happened(you would not even know it happened)now you are looking at an endless time loop, your soul would keep on being reset but you would not get to move father down the pattern with everybody else.  the other question is what happens when you balefire some who made a gate way for you and you are on the other side when you balfire them.  all that would happen is you are on the other side, they are dead you remember what they did, you are where the gateway droped you , and their would not be any residue of the gateway weave.  well, that is just what i think thats all.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-05 07:43:07
subject: <b>Not really time manipulation</b>
body:
Ok, so balefire burns out a thread from the pattern and so removes the things that person did for a certain time, right? <br /><br />If you can think of the pattern as an inifinately maleable cloth with a weave in n dimensions, this might make sense;<br /><br />I think, rather than a manipulation of time, the pattern simply &quot;falls back&quot; into the &quot;space&quot; left by the burnt thread. The threads to account for this aren't created by going back in time and changing what happened, because IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED!<br />Remember the parallel worlds Rand and Hurin met Selene (Lanfear) in? These worlds are reflections of the world wot is based in, representing universes or dimensions where something happened differently to the &quot;real world&quot;. Perhaps balefire simply makes room for some of the threads from the reflections. No more paradox!<br />Hehe i talk so much rubbish<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-04-19 13:46:30
subject: <b>just wonderin</b>
body:
I always wondered how balefire worked because if you think about it it shouldn't.  If you erase someone from the pattern for a certain amount of time back how is it that they were in place to be burned from the pattern. Thus while in essence you would be erasing what they did for a certain amount of time, depending upon the power of the weave, you would also erase the fact that they were ever their to get hit by balefire so technically it shouldn't work<br />now i really wish i understood what i just said


created: 2003-07-27 01:44:07
subject: <b>Wow, this is giving me a headache...</b>
body:
Oh, this is sooo complicated..... this is why they stopped using balefire in the war of power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />~Master of the Ashandarei~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Kneel to the Lord Nae'blis or you will be knelt.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> The Dark One's own luck... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />If you need a friend, look no further!! I like having friends...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 17:08:28
subject: <b>err...</b>
body:
Not sure about the time travel thing (I doubt it would work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />) but for Rand going back to ambush his betrayers, he'd violate the second law of time travel:<br />Never Meet Yourself In The Past.<br /><br />Would violate the first too, but not as bad:<br />When time traveling, never talk to anyone or affect anything. To do so will have unforseen results and can change the corse of history.


created: 2006-02-05 21:57:55
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I think that time travel is possible in Randland, but not with balefire.  I think it's just a different kind of gateway.  See, when Rand's talking about making a Gateway, he says he bores a hole in the Pattern from point A to point B.  However, we know that the Pattern isn't just the present, it's all of time.  Thus, shouldn't a powerful channeler be able to bore through the pattern to some other time in the pattern?


created: 2001-08-02 00:53:51
subject: <b>One Thing</b>
body:
So does the Anti-Rand have a goatee?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 06:22:59
subject: <b>BALEFIRE</b>
body:
Servants of Shadow stopped using Balefire during WoS. If DO really wanted to destroy Pattern He would not have allowed that. So DO either don't want to destroy Pattern or He wants to do it Himself. If His servants had continued using Bf world not exist any more. So DO don't need Dragon if He wanted to destroy world, He would only have to give order that all His followers must use as much Balefire as they can make and world would very soon vanish.


created: 2001-08-02 09:41:16
subject: <b>Re : Balefire</b>
body:
They stop using balefire because it would destroy de world.  Even thou that is the main goal of the Dark One, it is not the goal of his followers to destroy the world, they want to rule it.  If you destroy the world there is nothing left to rule.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Wariac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 14:29:34
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
PTH,<br /><br />This is the fundamental flaw with the DO's followers.  There are limits to what they are going to be willing to do (at least among people who are actually powerful enough to do what the DO wants).  There is also a question of exactly how much power it takes to free the DO (balefire is just a guess, but I think a good one).  I think it is clear from the books that only the Dragon is powerful enough to fully free the DO, no matter how it is done.


created: 2001-08-02 14:36:43
subject: <b>A note about the theory</b>
body:
This was my first theory posted.  As I was thinking about it, I realized that it was a bit off.  I edited it, and sent in a new theory titled &quot;The Theory of Many Things&quot;.  I had attached a note for the administrators to ash can this theory.<br /><br />Since this theory did make it up, I'll explain the revisions.  About the only real change is to change good/evil to order/chaos in every place.  The main reason for the change is that order/chaos can be measured more objectively than good/evil.


created: 2001-08-02 20:11:11
subject: <b>Well laid out concept...</b>
body:
Not so much a &quot;theory&quot; I would say but rather a concept or &quot;model&quot; of WoT.  The Post was well laid out and efficiently stated.  I tend to generally agree with the concept/model.  Great job.<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-03 18:12:29
subject: <b>Pretty nifty</b>
body:
I may not agree with the idea of a reverse version of the creators world (no I will not use the R name), but I like it anyway. I do wonder that if the DO is all about destruction, then what would his world look like?<br /><br />   Hope to see more theories from ya man.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 21:37:08
subject: <b>But chaos doesn't exist</b>
body:
Choas simply cannot exist. Order means rules, essentially, while choas means a lack thereof. This creates a conflict, for no matter what, there are rules, even if the sole rule is that there are no rules... A paradox I suppose.<br /><br />Does this make sense?


created: 2001-08-08 08:21:23
subject: <b>great cocept</b>
body:
in my opinion its not about destruction of (for lack of better name)randland as it is about having cotrol of its decomposition<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">uglykidrand<br />&quot;peace favor your sword&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 02:05:05
subject: <b>Order &amp; Chaos</b>
body:
How can order exist if chaos cannot? If chaos is the absence of order, well, then it's just the absence of order, nothing more. Order is not about rules BTW. Neither are order. There can be order without rules and chaos with rules. Just take a look at the world...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 17:55:41
subject: <b>Some comments in reply</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>The Creator and the Dark One:<br /><br />The Dark One is a necessary Force in the universe serving an opposite, but equal in importance, function. It probably isn't accurate to call the Creator Good, and the Dark One Evil. The concept of Good/Evil is simply too subjective (i.e. it depends entirely on the point of view of a third party to determine if something is good or evil). I think that a better view would be one of Creation/Destruction (probably still overly simplistic, but less subjective than Good/Evil). This would make the Creator responsible for Creation (don't think that I would ever have guessed that  ), and the Dark One responsible for Destruction. In this framework the Dark One becomes every bit as important for the continuation of the Wheel as the Creator, as creation and destruction are both very necessary in nature. What is interesting about the equality between the Creator and the Dark One is that they are both limited in directly affecting the world (if in different ways).</b></font><br /><br />This is an interesting idea. However, since all we ever see is a third party POV, it is still correct to speak of Good/Evil. That is, if you are correct. RJ has said that his world is very Manichean (Manichaeism is a dualistic worldview where good and evil are equal opposites). This means there definitely IS Good and Evil. But, this gets in to very deep philosophical ideas. Can humans transcend their circumstances and truly understand that there is no Good and Evil (in the world of the Wheel of Time, anyway)? If not, then it seems pointless to discuss whether there ACTUALLY is Good and Evil, or if there is simply opposition. At any rate, that is all I have to say on this subject. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The Pattern:<br /><br />I think that the best analogy for the Pattern is to vision it as a coin. On the one side (where the story takes place) the Creator reigns supreme, and on the other the Dark One is supreme. The coin (Pattern) itself is where the Creator and the Dark One meet, and the combining of their natures is what created the Pattern (note: everything I say will be about the side where the story takes place, but it can be assumed that everything is the exact opposite on the other side (i.e. the Creator being &quot;imprisoned,&quot; etc.)). An important point about this is that the Dark One is not really in a &quot;prison.&quot; Rather he is on the other side of the Pattern, and is trying to break through to this side. The Pattern is the neutral point between the Creator and the Dark One. Its purpose (in so much as it actually has a will) is to keep the balance between the Creator and the Dark One, so that the world will continue throughout time. For example the War of the Shadow and its outcome can be seen as the Pattern compensating for a shift too far in the direction of the Creator.</b></font><br /><br />I like the idea that the DO is not &quot;imprisoned&quot; (as in caged) but simply is &quot;blocked off from.&quot; I don't know that the Pattern could be called neutral, though. The Creator made the Pattern, so it would seem to be good, rather than neutral. (Perhaps this is why the DO wants to take over?) I wouldn't say, however, that from &quot;the other side of the Pattern&quot; that the Creator is &quot;imprisoned&quot; (like the DO is). This is because the Creator is not blocked off from anything (like the DO is).<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The Eternal Conflict:<br /><br />This is the conflict between the Creator and the Dark One. This is Dark One trying to escape his &quot;prison,&quot; and the Creator keeping that from happening. As I said the Dark One is simply trying to get to this side of the pattern. Why? Basically it is the nature of the Dark One to destroy, and there are things here to be destroyed. The Creator is trying to prevent that from happening because it is his nature. This conflict is truly eternal in that even if one or the other totally wins (thus ending the Pattern as we know it) a new balance will simply be created, and it will all start over. For some reason the Creator and the Dark One do not contend directly against each other, but rather everything is placed on the Dragon.</b></font><br /><br />The reason the DO and Creator cannot contend directly is because they are perfectly matched - there is an eternal stalemate between them.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The Dragon:<br /><br />In the eternal conflict the Dragon is the only person who means anything. I believe that this realization is what drove Ishamael mad. Imagine being as powerful and knowledgeable as he is, and realizing that he is utterly insignificant to his master. It is given to the Dragon to be the only one who can totally bring the Dark One to this side of the Pattern (I imagine it would be done by destroying the world in balefire). Furthermore I think that for the Dragon to bring the Dark One fully to this side requires that he be willing and not coerced (this would explain why the Dark One has not allowed Rand to be forcefully turned, and commanded that Rand be allowed to grow into his power). Ultimately only the Dragon will decide this conflict.</b></font><br /><br />Isn't Ishamael the DO's Chosen surrogate (like the Dragon is the Creator's Chosen surrogate)? [Side notes: is it possible - at least for one person - to destroy the world with balefire? Can a paradox like that exist?] Why does the DO need the Dragon willingly (or at all)? Does the DO need the Dragon simply because the Dragon is the strongest in the Power? That couldn't be, since a number of Power-wielders together are stronger than Rand. It must be something to do with the Pattern, which was made by the Creator. I don't know what implications that has, but it seems important.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Minor Conflicts:<br /><br />These are the conflicts with everyone else. They focus on what the world will be like after the war (who will rule, etc.), and are mostly what the books focus on. The important thing about these conflicts is that there is a disconnect between the Dark One and his followers. The Forsaken (and Darkfriends) want to rule the world, while the Dark One wants to destroy it. This difference in objectives puts the Dark One and his followers at odds at critical times. While it is clear that the Dark One will generally support his followers, it is fairly clear that he would do anything (up to and including destroying all of his followers) to bring the Dragon to his side. What this means is that sometimes the Dark One will undermine the plans of one of his followers (like Semirhage sending Trollocs to save Rand at Tear).<br /><br />Okay, that is my basic theory of everything. I don't think that there is much in the way of direct evidence to support my points, but I do think that there is quite a bit of indirect evidence supporting me. I'll probably post a few other theories in the near future, and this theory is going to be the basic foundation for them.</b></font><br /><br />The DO doesn't want to destroy (as in annihilate) but rather, the DO wants to re-make the Pattern in his/its (?) own image. [Side question: I thought Lanfear sent the Trollocs that defended Rand. Semirhage was in Seanchan at the time, after all, wasn't she?]<br /><br />Thumbs up for a well-written theory, though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 23:23:46
subject: <b>The...End?</b>
body:
...and just when Rand was about to win the Last Battle, he tripped over his shoelace and was sent plummeting into the Bore.  And the universe exploded.<br /><br />...<br /><br />Creator:  (English accent) Bugger it!  Lost again!<br />Dark One:  IT ONLY TOOK ME NINETEEN MILLENNIA TO DO IT THIS TIME.  I'M IMPROVING.<br />Creator:  Yes, you are, old man.  I'll have to raise the stakes this time.<br />Dark One:  OK, THIS TIME THE DRAGON CAN SHOOT LIGHTNING BOLTS OUT OF HIS EYES.  BUT ONLY ON THURSDAYS.<br />Creator:  Oh, good show old man!  What a clever idea!<br />Dark One:  WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THEM?<br />Creator:  Hmm...What if they have an extra arm growing out of their derriere?<br />Dark One:  YOU DID THAT THE TIME BEFORE LAST.<br />Creator:  Oh, yes, old sport, that's right.  Hmmm...how about this time it's the men that get pregnant?<br />Dark One:  THIS SHOULD BE FUNNY TO WATCH.<br />Creator:  What a pleasant way to spend the eternities, don't you agree, old thing?<br />Dark One:  VERILY.  NOW I HAVE TO PEE.  DON'T START WITHOUT ME.


created: 2001-08-02 13:50:25
subject: <b>Anthony's..</b>
body:
Incarnation series ruled<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Awesome series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 14:19:38
subject: <b>What if....</b>
body:
Lets say that the Creator formed this pattern so that is will go around forever and ever, and no matter how hard the Dark One tries he is ALWAYS so close.  It is almost a bad joke for the Dark One.  The creator does this so mankind can learn lessons that need to be learned in order to further themselves (in whatever that maybe).  The creator didn't want to create a perfect world or else the inhabitants would not be truly special.  Maybe Jordan was trying to impose an imagine of reality (our world) and his fantasy world and trying to expose an absoulute truth.  Humans our special, becasue they strive to survive and over come impossible odds.  That is the reason why at the end of all the books Jordan is going to keep the wheel going, becasue life keeps going and so does mankind....striving to fight the dark.  <br />I know it seems kinda sappy, but don't you wonder why if things seem right at the brink the pattern always some how makes things better (kinda like a corrective measure or bounds)...even if Rand would sit and do nothing the pattern would force him to fight and serve...all these things are symbols for the picutre of our own reality.  What those symbols consist of who knows.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I could die for you, but I couldn't and wouldn't live for you&quot;--Ayn Rand 'The Fountainhead'<br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Philosopher of the Ages <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of Time Wasting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> One Who Does Nothing At Work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 16:20:44
subject: <b>Think starwars</b>
body:
In starwars, if you kill someone out of hate you turn to the dark side.  The creator might have killed the dark one, but in turn, became the dark.  The same thing happens with the next creator.  Don't ask where the new creators came from.  I haven't finished thinking this out.


created: 2001-08-03 02:33:18
subject: <b>It seems to me...</b>
body:
that the reason that the Dark One is bound is because he is the Dark One.  The Creator trades the abilty to interfear with the world so the Dark one can be bound.  If he were to interfear then maybe the Dark One's prison would open.  After the only time we hear the Creator speak we find the first seal broken.  Maybe this was a coincidence but maybe it wasn't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 10:46:56
subject: <b>I agree with Gynsala and Wotmania...</b>
body:
Piers Anthony's 'Incarnations of Immortality' totally rocked.  If anyone is really interested by this theory, read these books: you won't be disappointed!  Be sure to start with 'On a Pale Horse' about the Incarnation of Death.  Great Read! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 18:31:17
subject: <b>Nifty idea Ultraman</b>
body:
I think your comment is the first to offer a truly good reason as to why the creator isn't as hands on as the dark one.<br /><br />   BY the way I like this theory.  Don't have much to add at the moment, but I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 02:58:18
subject: <b>Red_Asha'man?</b>
body:
What would a Red Asha'man be?  A man who hunts down women who can channel and stills them?  I didn't read your theory.  I am just curious what a red Asha'man could be.


created: 2001-08-06 02:30:20
subject: <b>maybe....</b>
body:
The Creator will not step in, unless the DO actually wins.  Then he will step in, stop the DO, re-seal him, and fix whatever is wrong with the world so far.  that would be cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 21:15:38
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Does anyone know of a series where the bad guys WIN? The best series get pretty darn close to that (like LotR, SW:ESB, ASoIaF), but the good guys always seem to prevail anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 12:43:22
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
If you think about it, the Creator had enough power over the DO to at least bind him outside the pattern at the moment of creation. So, it might be possible that the DO himself is a tool of the creator as must as the Dragon-soul.  Think of it it terms of using a controled burn to thin the growth in a forest.  Anytime you use fire this way you run the risk of your &quot;controled&quot; fire running wild and destroying everything in its path.  But if you have the right people to contain the blaze and put it out after it has done its job, it can be the perfect tool to clear the land and allow new growth.<br /><br />Also, I agree with the comments on Anthony's Incarnation series...wonderful books.


created: 2001-08-10 15:59:23
subject: <b>The Creator spoke at the end of the Eye of the World...</b>
body:
although a few contest that that was the Dark One, those few are merely a vocal minority.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 06:43:04
subject: <b>Does Light Win!!!</b>
body:
<br />Dragon wins DO!!<br /><br />AoL there were no darkfriends as we know them!!!<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Light won? and darkfriends were destroied?<br /><br />How did the WAR start again why did Dragon reborn?<br /><br />'cause there are no winnings nor losing in the Wheel of time!!!


created: 2001-10-15 12:51:32
subject: <b>Series Where Evil Wins</b>
body:
I believe it was 'Stranger in the Shadows' that asked about<br />a series in which the bad guys win. Only one comes to mind,<br />but it is definately worth a read. It's called 'Villains by<br />Necessity' by Eve Forward (I think that was her name). It was a pretty good book from the view point of the villans.<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-04 05:46:43
subject: <b>to stranger in shadows</b>
body:
I can't think of any series where the bad guys win off the top of my head, but I can think of a couple which touch on that sort of thing.<br /><br />1, Stephen Donaldson: The Gap Series - most of the characters in this series are complete lowlifes, or are twisted in one way or another.  I highly recommend this.  If you've read the Thomas Covenant Chronicles you have an idea how Donaldson creates a dark aspect in his characters, in the Gap series every character has many many personality flaws.  fun.<br /><br />2, (Do NOT buy these as new.  Borrow, rent or pick them up second hand) L.Ron. Hubbards (sorry people but it is a good series &amp; it is heavily ghost written/edited so.....) Mission Earth Decology (I've only read up to book 6 as I will not buy them new and can I find 7, 8 or 9, no).  This is mostly written from the perspective of the bad guy and is worth reading, it does however seem to descend into a rather perverted series by book 4 or 5.  I did quite enjoy them though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">what? sorry,.....I'd stopped listening.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 00:03:08
subject: <b>Anthony's Incarnations has even more to offer</b>
body:
This is more of a response to Wotomania's comments:<br />I like Wotomania's tie-in with Anthony's Incarnations series and I believe there is even more revalance that can be gained from Anthony's work.  &quot;With a Tangled Skein&quot; deals with the weaving of fate (The Great Pattern)and the effect certain strands have on each other.  Evil (Satan)touches this pattern and tries to tangle the web and confuse the agents of good to hide his future plans.<br />Also, the Incarnation series deals with the gypsys' quest for the ultimate song, &quot;The Llano&quot;, which has great power over reality.  This is very similar to The Tinkers' (who are WOT gypsys) quest for the &quot;OLD Song&quot; in WOT.


created: 2004-11-16 00:42:24
subject: <b>Where Bad Guys Win</b>
body:
Stranger in Shadows asked if there was a series where the bad guys win. Depending on one's Point of View, the Time Master series by Louise Cooper is a good work.  Her Indigo series is a worthy read also.


created: 2001-08-02 10:29:12
subject: <b>Nice...</b>
body:
We all know that Galad is one heck of a swordman, and I can't help noticing that, among Galad and Gawyn, GAWYN is the leader (and &quot;the most dangerous of the two, surprisingly&quot;...). Gawyn is a leader of men, and Galad is a good guy (too good, but that's another story). So, like what you said, what is his role? Logain will be Rand's sidekick, we pretty well know that. Mat will be the Great general, Gawyn the motivator of troops, Perrin the sad fighter and the one who will probably lead the &quot;non-humans&quot; (wolves, Ogiers -yes they will fight-), so what place will there be for the Grand Galad?<br /><br />Keep in mind that Galad is a direct allusion to Galahad, the PUREST of all the knights, who never knew a woman, who always id hat was right, and who found the Graal... The vase that received the blood of Christ, and that gave food to everyone  in England... So what could be the Graal in WoT?<br /><br />I honestly don't know, but I think Galad's role is yet to be defined... leading the Whitecloaks is a given, but not enough I think...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 15:29:03
subject: <b>Shadar Hairan Would RAPE Galad</b>
body:
Galad would be slaughtered by Shadar Hairan. It would be great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 16:44:24
subject: <b>Galad's role</b>
body:
In answer to &quot;Who is Galad&quot;: Galad will be involved in plotlines with Rand, Elayne, and Egwene.  That's it, that's all.


created: 2001-08-02 18:34:45
subject: <b>Galad is screwed</b>
body:
Galad is a terrible character. What's worse is Gawyn. I hope Galad kills Gawyn when, in a fantastic plot twist, the white cloaks invade the re-assembled white tower and slaughter the occupants, along with Gawyn's Younglings. If we're lucky, Egwene, Elayne, and Min will all die because all they do is squabble and ruin the books. If it wasn't for those girls, Rand wouldn't be distracted. Anyways, I ran off on a tangent. I hope Galad kills Gawyn. And, on accident, he twists and rolls his ankle. That's all I got to say about that.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Breaker of Worlds <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Suppressor of Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Yo-Yo Lord of Unyielding Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Successor of the Dark One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Verbose Tyrant of Endless Rhetoric <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />CleanToe<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-02 23:13:59
subject: <b>First Prince or Captain-General of Cairhein</b>
body:
The Whitecloaks are cactus after their various defeats. Galad must have heard some rumour of a queen kept prisoner at Amador.<br />When Tallanvor shows up (40 Miles behind Perrin and counting) he must put two and two together and either leave the Whitecloaks or get Valda to head south and join the party.<br />When he learns of Morgase's treatment he must leave the Whitecloaks..........surely?<br />With Elayne Queen of Andor and Cairhein, there may be a Gawyn type of job opneing in Cairhein.<br />After getting their butts kicked twice surely the Cairheinin must form an army.<br />Who better to be Elayne's Captain than Galad.<br /><br />Galad is also going to play an interesting part with his brother Rand.<br />Elayne through the bond may notice Rand's strange behaviour to Galad and realise the connection.<br /><br />Agree, Rand's blood on Shayol Ghul must have something to do with his wound. If Rand used Choedan Kal to seal the bore the DO would vomit on<br />saidin and send all the Ashaman mad...........again.<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-03 17:45:24
subject: <b>Egwenes Warder</b>
body:
Egwene is green, so she can get more than one Warder, one will be Gawyn and the other is Galad.<br />Maybe this way he will fight Shaidar Haran <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-03 20:56:08
subject: <b>Galad the Asha'man?</b>
body:
I was just thinking about Galad's relationship to Rand when I realsied that he is in fact related to several powerful channelers. Rand is his half brother on one side, Elayne is his half sister on the other and Moraine is also his half aunt (is that the right term?). I'm not sure what people's thoughts were on blood relations and channelers but he does have links to three strong wielders of the One Power. Something for a whitecloak to think on anyway.


created: 2001-08-03 20:57:13
subject: <b>The Grail...</b>
body:
Re: Galad as Galahad, purest of the knights and discoverer of the Grail... asking &quot;what is the Grail?&quot;<br /><br />One of the names by which the Grail was referred in older legends was the San Greal.  Gee, what's this?  Sa'angreal?  I'll bet that the Grail, whatever found by Galad (maybe) is going to figure in Rand's fate at Tarmon'Gaidon.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--Mostly Harmless <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 02:11:16
subject: <b>Sexy Galad...</b>
body:
I think Galad's role will be very important in future books.  He IS the Man in White that Berelain falls for and he WILL be the leader of the White Cloaks.


created: 2001-08-04 15:50:06
subject: <b>Galad....</b>
body:
As much as i absolutely loathe Galad, he's main role in the book is probably going to do some good. When Berelain finally falls for him, she'll leave Perrin alone. Galad will probably also lead the Whitecloacks, which will be a big improvement on their part. Galad is a Whitecloack because he read a book written by their founder, and thought his idea's were sound, and since Galad always does the right thing, he might be able to turn the Whitecloacks from a bunch of paranoid, exaggerating thugs with swords into what they originally were. Priests/Monks. <br /><br /><br />just to say it, Galad getting schooled by Mat in TDR is one of the greatest scenes in all of WoT. I also would've loved to have seen him get gut'd by Uno and that other Shienar back in Ghealdea. Galad may be Warder trained, but the most Warders ever do is just that. train. Shienars are taught on the battle field. Oh man i hope Galad get run-though some day.............


created: 2001-08-06 21:31:13
subject: <b>People's Roles in Tarmon Gaidon</b>
body:
RJ is pushing Galad's character because, though lots of readers hate him for his goody-two-shoes-ness, he will be essential at TG.  This fits in to the grand scheme:  each semi-important/important character in WOT World will be key during Tarmon Gaidon.  A lot of this is the same as Ananke's thoughts:<br /><br />Rand, obviously, will go battle the DO himself.  I won't get into that, to much disgression there.<br /><br />Logain, by then the head of the BT, will lead the Ashaman and battle Taim (don't even go there about Demandred) and his dreadlords.<br /><br />Egwene, as Amrylin and Green (Battle) Ajah, will be in charge of the AS also countering the dreadlords and black ajah, and what remains of the forsaken.  Side note:  with the rate things are going, my guess is that almost if not all (except Moridin) the FOrsaken will be gone by TG.  There will be new Forsaken, of course, to make legends for the next Age.<br /><br />Elayne, along with Gawyn, will lead the forces of Andor, though most of Gawyn's attention will be focused on the Younglings.<br /><br />Mat will be the Great General, commmanding the regular Forces of the Light.  <br /><br />Perrin will command the wolves, and I think at the very end of TG, as Rand dies and defeats/seals away the DO(another arguement I don't want to touch), he will help the Tinkers find the song.<br /><br />Loial will lead the Ogier.  He isn't a very aggressive guy, but we know he can fight.  Also, in Seanchan, the Ogier are like SWAT teams, and participate in battles.  <br /><br />Avienda will be a super Wise One and be instrumental in the Aiel's participation.  She will also be busy with her four babies.<br /><br />I'm not sure how Min will fit in, but I'm sure she'll be important somehow.  Ideas, anyone? <br /><br />Lan will rally the Borderlanders under the Golden Crane.  He will live, and Malkier will live again.<br /><br />Nynaeve will be with the Yellow Ajah, healing those who can be healed. <br /><br />Tam (this one's a maybe) will help with the fighting, since he has lots of experience.  <br /><br />But Galad.  I'm sure he will have risen fairly high in the Whitecloaks by this time, and when one of the highest-ups dies, loses his nerve, or is revealed as a darkfriend, Galad will take over and save the day.  Also, by the time TG's over, the Whitecloaks will have become so sick of the fighting that they, under Galad's leadership, will return to their roots, as gentle, passive, light-spreading folks.  <br /><br />He could also command the forces of Cairhein.  He is the rightful ruler of Cairhein, unless you count Elayne.  So maybe that will come into play too.<br /><br />Sorry for the length!<br /><br />Thoughts? Flamings? Rebuttles?<br /><br />~Eswana~


created: 2001-08-06 23:57:00
subject: <b>Rebuttal to above...</b>
body:
Good one, and i dont mind the length of the response. Well, I like your placements, though I doubt it about Tam being a mabye. I think that he will play an important role in TG as leader of the Dragonsworn, while Mat leads the Seanchan(mabye) and The Band of the Red Hand (does that sound strange to anybody else?). Tam is a great military leader, and has fought in more wars as a commander than anybody else IN THIS LIFE (that excludes Mat). Whitecloak war, 2 between Illian and Tear, and the Aiel war. Tam is one bad Mofo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 14:04:53
subject: <b>:-)</b>
body:
Yup, with Tam's battle experience he will most likely be important in TG.  And I forgot about Mat leading the Seanchan, which is something we've kind of known for a while.  I agree about Galad being Jeorom (sp?) by the way.<br /><br />Still no clue as to how Min will be significant in the last battle.  Ideas, anyone?


created: 2001-08-07 16:42:50
subject: <b>Min's Role at TG...</b>
body:
With Harid Fel (i think that's the philosopher's name) dead, Min's busy reading all of the philosophy books she can find.  Could her role at TG be that of the person who discovers what Rand has to do to defeat the Dark One and restore the seals on his prison?<br /><br />Just a thought...


created: 2001-08-07 17:23:30
subject: <b>Could be!</b>
body:
The thought never crossed my mind about Min and her brains!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 18:01:28
subject: <b>Damn it all to hell!!!</b>
body:
What I don't understand is why every god damn person has to be someone reborn.  couldn't they just be someone who is good at something or important.  In my opinion the only person who was reborn is Rand.  please stop using the 'being reborn' theories.


created: 2001-08-07 21:43:25
subject: <b>I never thought of that!</b>
body:
I like the idea of a philosopher Min- it gives her more depth than ever before. I like the idea of her importance at TG, though I am thinking that the actually sealing of the DO's prison will be done with the Power (duh) so, being a nonchanneler, she couldn't contribute as much.  But maybe she'll figure out the cryptic notes Fel sent to Rand- the &quot;need to break them before you can build&quot; (reference to the seals) notes.<br /><br />And people are reborn in WOTworld.  Birgitte and Gaidel Cain and the other Horn people are good examples.  As Birgitte told Nyn, she is spun out by the wheel ever so often.  Isn't that just a little bit like being reborn?  And it makes it interesting- guessing who so-and-so is.


created: 2001-08-11 01:37:04
subject: <b>In agreement with Unborn... and Eswama</b>
body:
Galad will certainly play a large part in in TG as he will undoubtedly be leading a newly reformed (by the end of whatever number book that will bring us to the LB) Whitecloak Army.  I say newly reformed because we have to look at the evil that is begining to bubble within the Whitecloaks currently.  Galad will play an instrumental part in cleansing darkfriends from the Whitecloaks while bringing about a new wave of thought about channelers (both male and female) amongst the Whiteclaoak regimen.  Everyone must follow the most powerful recorded channeler in history, LTT reborn, if The Light is going to triumph at TG.  This will become painfully clear to Galad, who will in turn make it clear to his amry.  He will reconstruct the very core of the Whitecloaks, eliminating the fascist and nearly untouchable Hand of the Light, and show that The One Power is truly the Creator's gift, and that the DR is the Creator's &quot;Hand&quot;.   <br />   His relationship with four people, and the possibility he will discover that he can channel, make this nearly inevitable (especially if the Whitecloaks are going to have any redeeming qualities in this series at all...which, subsequently, I believe RJ will give them) <br />1.Egwene -who will take her place as the true Amyrlin in a unified White Tower and who Galad has clealy stated his feelings for.  Strong tie for a Whitecloak to have.  A crime under current regime.<br />2.Elayne -his half sister whom he felt he was supposed to protect at any cost. (and still does)  She will be Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah and Queen of Andor.  Another strong tie to a supposed witch.<br />3.Moraine Damodred- his half aunt I believe Unborn called her.  Becoming a legend amongst novices, Accepted, and Aes Sedai for her confrontation with Lanfear.  She is sure to show up again as she has unfinished and unexplained business with Thom, and will therefore, possibly, have dealings with Galad.<br />4.Rand al Thor- he is related to the DB through his mother, making him, as you all know, his half brother.  Rand is also in love with Elayne and almost a brother to Egwene, which Galad will have to respect and accept.  No need to say more on this.<br />  I'm also of the mind that Galad, considering these aforementioned relationships, has the inborn ability to channel.  If he does it will certainly define what kind of effect he will have on the Whitecloaks, especially if he keeps rising in the ranks.<br />Sorry. I rushed to finish because I'm going on too long.  Please forgive...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Taishar Manatheren!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 00:45:29
subject: <b>Channlers</b>
body:
I think it would be very cool if Galad could channel, but I don't think he has the spark, rather, he has the ability (though a strong one) to learn.<br /><br />Galad is older than Rand, older than Gawyn, etc. So I'm guessing he's probably in his mid-twenties.  I think he's a bit too old to have the spark, which would have already manifested itself in him by now.  But I think it's very possible he can be taught to channel.<br /><br />~Eswana~<br />~smile always~<br />LIVE OUT LOUD


created: 2001-08-20 21:14:24
subject: <b>Yep, that why he is rising through the ranks so fast.</b>
body:
And who can say that he is not channeling without being aware of it.  We have heard of this in the series.  Maybe when he has channeled it seemed to him (and everyone else) that something merely fortuanate happened to him.  Men who can channel always seem to be extremely lucky before they even know what it is they are doing.  This would explain why he is rising through the ranks at such speed.


created: 2001-08-20 21:22:31
subject: <b>So he could have the Spark</b>
body:
Think about it.  He could turn out to be one of the most powerful men ever to walk the earth.  I just hope Barelain gives it up to him so he won't have act like theres a police bayton stuck up his ass his entire life!!!


created: 2001-08-23 15:58:18
subject: <b>Galad .....a channeler?</b>
body:
No way Galad can channel. If he can channel, so can Gawyn. Its already been set-up who can channel, and who cant. Galad and Gawyn are leaders of men, not Asha'man. What we need to do is get Perrin &amp; Co. together with the Younglings in Andor, so Gawyn and Elayne can see that Morgase isnt dead. I feel like smacking Gawyn around when he threatens Rand. However, he did make an interesting point. ' Al'Thor, one day, i will see you dead '. Well, he probably will. But Rands going to come back, somehow. Speaking of which, couldnt that be a wish Moiraine could make? She did go through the door-way where you can make wishes. Maybe she'll ask that Rand come back to life if he ever dies. <br /><br /><br />bah, side-tracked. Galad being a channeler would ruin his position in the Whitecloaks, because not hes related to the One Power. <br /><br />also, im all for watching Galad being gut'd by a real soldier. Maybe he can face Mat again and get slit from groin to throat. ::giggles evily:::<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-03 12:16:42
subject: <b>min...</b>
body:
i had one theory about mins role in the last battle...<br />she will be kidnapped, i have no real proof of this only that thais is a fantasy serie and no one inportant has been kidnapped yet... but now i recall that falie has been kidnapped... hmmf... oh well maybe she will be kidnapped anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-07-29 10:31:10
subject: <b>Kidnapping</b>
body:
Hmmm...Wasn't there someone else important who was kidnapped?  What was his name again...oh yeahe, Rand.


created: 2002-09-14 13:38:22
subject: <b>Just one minute...</b>
body:
Everyone keeps talking about Egwene being Green Ajah? Have I missed someting? She was raised from an (ajahless) Accepted to a by definition Ajahless Amyrlin. &quot;The Amyrlin is of all Ajahs and none&quot;, right?


created: 2002-09-21 00:05:31
subject: <b>why people think</b>
body:
the reason is becuse durring her accepetence test third vision she see her self as the Amyrlin and her keeper is green then assuse that she was green befor she was raised.<br /><br />Second after the test she asked what it meens to be green.  <br /><br />now that she is Ajahless Amyrlin she porple could chose to folow the green rule of mupital warders or one of the other Ajah rule for warders


created: 2002-11-11 15:22:21
subject:
<b>i think your right (as usual) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
galad is an awesome swordsman. rj has made that clear. i'm not sure about him fighting shadar haran, but he'll probably play a pretty big role in the last battle. he is rand's half brother, after all... &amp; i'll bet he gets killed by a trolloc wielding a quarter staff.


created: 2003-03-20 21:37:06
subject: <b>In response</b>
body:
&quot;Who does that leave for Lan? Fain?&quot;<br />I think that Lan has to fight Luc/Isam...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Force, Caller of Lightnings<br />Hero of Shrouded Hills<br />Enemy of Tsen'ang<br />Friend to the Molochean Hand<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-02 23:49:37
subject: <b>Hmm... quarterstaffs</b>
body:
Okay, this may be a bit weird to some of you but here goes!<br /><br />I think that Loial will not neccesarily defeat Shaidar Haran, but at least prevent him from killing Rand and/or Co. while they're vulnerable/tired during the Last Battle. This would appease the quarterstaff vs. sword lesson, and give Loial a very good reason. I also think that he'll lead the Ogier into the Last Battle, and it's kind of hard to imagine Loial with a sword, isn't it? And he's sung one before, while in the world reached by the portal stone, and for no apparent reason, so why not again for the battle that will determine the fate of the world, hmm? Well, butcher this, or praise this, or whatever you will, but it's my idea, and I'm stickin' to it! <br /><br />Vali&#224; Snowstream,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" />Elve of Lothlorien<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" />Hedron, High General of the Gongilians<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> I know better than to play stupid with you;<br /> you're obviously far better at it than I am.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Rob's wife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think geeks are sexy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> So I went and got my own! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Te quiero mi hermano!<br /><br /><font color="#0099CC">Caboose: Tell him about how his dad got to third base with you!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 20:18:24
subject: <b>Makes total sense</b>
body:
I think it is totally possible that Galad would be Jearom Gaidin reincarnated. Has he ever lost a fight, other than Mat's? I can't be certain, but I don't think so. And the beating with a quarterstaff was very symbolic. He does kick and it has been my personal opinion that he will be the best swordsman ever (better than Lan). So yea, I think its a definite chance. With regards to the Grain-sa'angreal connection, the only thing I can say is creepy. I'm not sure if it was inteded, but if it was then....we have a very large twist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 22:54:36
subject: <b>He's not that bad....</b>
body:
I'm tired of people slamming Galad and Gawyn. They have rather interesting personalities and are just plain cool. Why? Well first, Gawyn. He hates Rand and doesn't give a damn that hes the Dragon Reborn. Hes caught up in something hgue he can't do much about and he knows it. Galad is even better. Hes too perfect. But hes cool....so long as RJ keeps him single. The great thing about him is that hes head over heels for Egwene, despite being a whitecloak and he an Aes Sedai. Ironic. However, Gawyn gets Egwene, so I doubt Galad will. I think he will die saving someones life. Some possiblies: Rand, Egwene, Elayne, Gawyn. Why? Well, hes always been alone in his life and that weights down on someone. The only person he ever had was his dad who he was always trying to appease. So.....yea. That makes for a hard life. Now, Elayne has always thought he was a jerk and hated him. Personally, I think Galad has something to prove to her: he isn't a jerk. What better way than saving her lover/frienc/her/brother's life? Yea.....okay thats done<br /><br />Next part. This is totally random, but as far as name comparison, the Galahad thing was great and I offer another name. Gil-Galad. Who the heck is Gil-Galad you ask? Elrond's dad in the Lord of the Rings. He was a great leader, probably the most important elf in Middle Earth during the first War of the Ring. He got blasted by a Sauron made fireball during the fight. He died. Just some randome notes, but if you see Galad pick up a spear...well thats creepy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-07 08:19:49
subject: <b>I for one dont hate Galad and Gawyn</b>
body:
...but admire them they fight as normal men without the power or anything.<br /><br /><br />who i think does what during TG<br /><br />Rand will battle DO thats been known through out the series<br /><br />Logain by this time will have desposed of that Da'stang Taim and secured his poistion as the true M'heal he will lead the asha'man in to TG under Rand and defeat Shadar Haran (Logain as rands second and SH as the DO's)<br /><br />Mat will be the Great general and command the forces of the light in Rands name aswell as lead the Seanchan the band and the heros of legend<br /><br />Galad as we all now is now the Lord Captain Commander of the Children as he killed valda in trial beneath the light forfeating his rank to Galad, by this time Galad will have learned what Really happened to his mother and he will learn that he and Rand are brothers they form a kind of bond, Then Galad and Eqwene will join forces with rand galad to lead the children and Eqwene to lead the Aes'Sedai as the precepts sate that to fight the raven (shadow and/or the seanchan) you may make alliance with the serpant (Ae'sedai) until the battle is done, only they wont need to fight the seanchan sense matt is the prince of ravens (Who knows galad may even become king of chairhein though i doubt it, i think the thing with him and barelain is given though)<br /><br />Perrin will lead the wolves into the last battle<br /><br />Loial will lead the Ogier<br /><br />Elayne and Gawyn along with the younglings will lead andor into TG<br /><br />Aviendha will lead Aiel along with Rand his chiefs and the other wise ones<br /><br />I belive Nynaeve will rally the boderlanders under lans golden crane and lan will run with it no offesnse Eswana Sedai (XD)<br /><br />Min will find a way to seal dark ones prison and keep history from repeating itself (backlash of taint from Saidin)<br /><br />and As for Galad being a channler and as i saw someone state before hes much to old now to start unless hes taugh besides he isnt closely related enough to channel any of his Channeler realtives for it to have had profound diffirence espacially sense hes older them all except Moiraineand as for the Jeoram Gaidin part well ill admit that Galad is a kick but blademaster hes only ever taken on three men at a time rand has taken on six anyway theirs just not enough information on the legendary hero to prove it one way or the other besides not everyone has to be a reborn hero. Perrin is not Ameon reborn despite what ppl claim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Far ayende far shain e far daishar <br />Birgitte Rules!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 10:31:13
subject: <b>Nope...</b>
body:
Galad will not be the Man in White... or at least he will not return Berelain's affection. Because Galahad (mythology) never courted women...<br /><br />Although it would be fitting for Berelain to fall in love for him just because he is hard to get...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 12:24:39
subject: <b>Galad/Galahad</b>
body:
RJ did base him on Galahad, but none of characters are PURELY their mythological base.  Galad COULD be the man in white.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 12:54:04
subject: <b>As long as Faile DIES!</b>
body:
I don't really care what happens with the rest of the story from here on in, as long as:<br />1. Faile DIES! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br />2. Egwene(sp?) gets nocked of her high horse,and I mean HARD! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br />and,<br />3. Rand B****-slaps Cadesuane(sp?). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 13:35:43
subject: <b>Faile Rocks</b>
body:
Dude, Faile is awesome.  I don't see why anyone wants her dead.  She is one of the most interesting characters in the whole book.<br /><br />Long live the falcon!<br />Long live Faile!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Mysterious Named One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 14:42:13
subject: <b>I just want Perrin to die</b>
body:
I don't have anything agains Faile (though I wouldn't want to marry her <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />), but I can't stand Perrin.  He wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't such a whiner.


created: 2001-08-02 15:31:40
subject: <b>If Faile dies</b>
body:
I'm of the opinion that Perrin is Berelain's man in white, since the mourning color for the Two Rivers.  Also no matter what else happens there aren't enough troops near Perrin to take out the Aiel with Sevanna, they have almost 4000 Aiel and almost 300 WO, whereas right now there are only about 2000 menb with Perrin including The Prophet's troops.  There may be another 1000 Whitecloaks, but still no where near enough to take the Aiel without some serious help.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 16:50:04
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
I truly don't have a problem with Faile.  In order of women i like, it problably goes<br />Moiraine<br />Nynaeve<br />Min<br />Egwene<br />Elayne<br />Faile<br />Aviendha<br />Tuon.<br /><br />Good order, I think.


created: 2001-08-02 19:54:44
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
I don't know about all you people, but I think that if Berelain were ever to fall head over heels in love with Perrin, it would have happened already.  I seriously think that she views him more as a challenge than something serious.  As soon as she sees GALAD, she'll probably stop her little games with Perrin, and start them up with Galad.  Anyways, Faile is gonna live, because killing her would piss off many more people than it would make happy.  Rock on Faile!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 23:03:33
subject: <b>Berelain is in love - almost</b>
body:
When Perrin calls Berelains a &quot;childish games&quot;, Annoura calls him a 'large fool&quot;<br />Berelain's gaze on Perrin's back was exactly the same as Faile gaze on his back at the Blacksmith's in Tear.<br />When Perrin was sick in TSR Faile would sit by his bed. When Perrin was sick in WH guess who was sitting by his bed.<br />(Side question - where did Berelain sleep that night? Next to a naked man!)<br />I think all it will take will be a greaving Perrin (in white) at Faile's gravesite and she will fall completely in love. It would seem strange for RJ to spend all this time on the Berelain/Faile thing to have it destroyed in one chapter when Galad shows up.<br />Then again RJ doesn't seem to like kiling any major good guys. Where's the 'Balance' - sigh


created: 2001-08-03 10:24:38
subject: <b>I don't agree with Mr. wotmania</b>
body:
that RJ won't killa good character in book 10 if he hasn't done this so far.<br /><br />But coming back to the point, Faile &lt;b&gt;isn't&lt;/i&gt; a good character. She's the biggest danger to Perrin and must be killed! The sooner the better. (for Perrin and the general story). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Kill Faile<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Berelain rules!<br /><br />and Cadsuane is remarkable <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 11:25:17
subject: <b>Opinion poll</b>
body:
I wonder if there has ever been an opinion poll on who likes/dislikes Faile.  I'd be very interested to see the results.  <br /><br />If there hasn't been, there should be.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ABOtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Mysteriously Named One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 19:14:35
subject: <b>Response to AOBtD</b>
body:
There is a poll in the archives asking if your glad that Faile got dragged naked through the snow. Unfortunately the yes answers out weighed the no column. SOme people are just plain mean dude....<br /><br />   By the way I don't know if Berlain is capable of love. She can only be comfortable with love on 'her terms' and that's not really love. In fact if you think about it Mins viewing didn't say that she will ever fall in 'love'. I think her exact working was 'fall head over heels for a man in white'. That could indicate falling 'lust'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 19:19:25
subject: <b>There was almost one....</b>
body:
I believe there was a quickpoll on &quot;Were you happy to see Faile dragged naked through the snow?&quot; or words to that effect. Sadly, arounbd 50% of those who responded said &quot;yes.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Faile is one of the COOLEST characters! The sad thing is, she and Berelain would probably get along quite well if it wasn't for the Perrin thing, This is supported by their personalities and Faile's POV. I think that Berelain will fall for Galad (and have to chase him up, down and possibly around the bend to get him. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) Then she and Faile can stop bickering and one small portion of Randland will be sorted. For oh, say, five minutes, until something else shows up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 02:44:56
subject: <b>Why can't Perrin have two women?</b>
body:
Rand has three women and none of them have much of a problem with sharing him.  I think Faile is okay.  I also think Berelain is okay.  Why can't Perrin have both?


created: 2001-08-06 02:06:22
subject: <b>Jim</b>
body:
You said Perrin would not stand a chance against Sevannah (sp?) because he has only 2000 men?  Yeah, right.  Sure, he only has 2000 MEN, but how many WOLVES live in the miles and miles of country and forest around them? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think Perrins should call all the wolves, and have them mob the Aiel.  That would be cool.<br /><br />P.S.  Why does *everyone* hate Faile?  Most arguments are based on annoyance, but Faile doesn't stand a chance against Nynaeve and Elayne in the Annoyance category.  Those two could out-annoy anything on the planet!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 13:56:21
subject: <b>Rathan</b>
body:
I don't think that there are enough wolves either to help overcome 300 Wise Ones.  Plus the 2000 troops that Perrin does have are almost all farmers they wouldn't last two minutes against the Aiel.  And honestly, I doubt that the wolves would hold for that long either, they might be able to tip a close battle, but not something like this.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 15:06:23
subject: <b>Faile dead?</b>
body:
I dont think Faile will die. RJ seems to have a habit (except maybe Ingtar) of not letting his chars die. The man in white will probably be Galad, Berelain will stop chasin Perrin, Faile and Berelain will become friends with eachother, Perrin will not understand anything of what happened and moan about nt understanding women.<br /><br /> I do agree with some people abut Egwene and Elayne who have to be put down from the high horses. Being rescued from Halima by some male channeler might do for Egwene. Being dragged of dosed by forkroot by the darkfriends in Caemlyn WILL do for Elayne.


created: 2001-08-06 21:34:47
subject: <b>Annoying People in General</b>
body:
Every single character in the series (with the possible exception of Lan) has annoyed me at one point or another.  I have to say that Rand is currently the least annoying, because he's actually doing stuff.  (I just hate it when all the good guys are working in opposite directions because they just don't talk to one another.)<br />I do say that stuck-up know-it-all Aes Sedai are probably the most annoying, especially Nynaeve and Egwene, but Elayne is at last coming around.  If they would just shut up and let Rand do all the work, the books would be far more enjoyable . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 06:39:17
subject: <b>What's wrong with Faile?</b>
body:
I think she's a great character making the books even more thrilling. And just because Perrin is my favorite, I wouldn't stand seing him that sad. Faile has to live!<br /><br />Berelain's man in white:<br />I like both the Rhuarc and the Perrin theory! But Berelain and Galad would make a nice couple... 'though I nearly believe that Galad could be gay...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Elin Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-09 06:28:09
subject: <b>Sawyer_Destroyer</b>
body:
I haven't thought about that! I completely agree with you! Why can't Perrin have to wives?<br /><br />(Well, maybe because he's too much of a gentleman....)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Elin Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-19 18:23:12
subject: <b>no title</b>
body:
I can see that Faile is annoying, but I don't understand why people hate her so.<br /><br />she doesn't say very much in Perrin's pov, not even in her own. and she most certainly doesn't sniff like the other women in the books! Nynaeve and Elayne are sniffing 3 times a page it seems. don't get me wrong, I like Nynave- Elayne... eh. <br /><br />but how can Faile be so irratating when she just stands in the background? Perrin is always saying he doesn't understand his wife. when they were in the camps and Faile was sending out her spies, she said she didn't understand Perrin. that he was just as stubborn as he believes her to be. <br /><br />my point is that she isn't as bad as most people say she is. I'll hush now


created: 2001-08-31 19:13:15
subject: <b>Just a silly idea</b>
body:
I was getting quite bored seeing how Berelain chased Perrin, when I thought she seemed quite desesperated trying to put her hands on him...<br />Perhaps she is in love, or it is just a challenge..., but also Berelain could have passed the ter&#180;angreal door of Tear, or seen a foreteller, or anything you like to think about..., and knows very well she must do all the possible to get Perrin for her or something bad will happen, because her fate won&#180;t be completed. (For example, the Finn told Mat to go to Rhuidean or he would die and the Pattern would be broken).<br />It&#180;s just a possibility IMHO, because if all this thing is just a game, I think it&#180;s lasting too much!<br />(By the way, I wouldn&#180;t mind if RJ killed Faile; I think Berelain is a very, very interesting woman... ;-) ).<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-03 02:26:57
subject: <b>the man in white</b>
body:
Perhaps i'm barking up the wrong tree here, but ever since i heard min's viewing concerning berelain, that she'd see a man in white she'd fall head over heals in love with, i've only been able to assume she means a gaishan. Just my personal opinion, but im pretty sure im right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-16 14:47:37
subject: <b>Forshadowing?</b>
body:
Does anyone think about the conversation between Faile and Perrin where she asks him what he would do if she died, whether or not he would remarry?  Just thought that it might go along with this theory.


created: 2001-11-21 23:46:06
subject: <b>an immposiblity</b>
body:
i do not think that it is possible for Faile to die in this seris without Perrin going out of his mind. Many times throughout<br />the book we hear him/read him think what would happen if Faile dies. I think that he would lose all inner self and go<br />on a rampage to kill the murder of his wife. Then he would go to destroy as many Trollocs and Fades on his way to <br />the Blight and beyond, fore i think that there would not be a bit of human left in him if she died.


created: 2002-01-22 21:06:51
subject: <b>Faile...</b>
body:
I don't really have too much to say about the theory, outside of that I agree that RJ won't kill her off and Perrin will always rescue her from whatever situation she's in.  What I do want to say, though, is in response to wotmania stating that it seems that everyone either loves her or hates her.  Well, meet someone who does neither!  I don't hate Faile, nor do I love her.  She simply is a character I have to read about to get on to better things.  Sometimes she's amusing, sometimes I'd like to choke her, but she's not so bad.  If Perrin loves her, then I'm okay with that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 23:42:02
subject: <b>On Perrin and 2 women</b>
body:
Yes, Rand had three women. But the operative word is that they're WILLING to share him. I simply cannot see Faile ever sharing Perrin, can you? She is way to controlling (EVEN THOUGH I ABSOLUTLY LOVE HER!) but she s to controlling and WAY to possesive. SHe could never, never, EVER share Perrin. I also don;t thibk Perrin would be happy with Berelain. I have no evidence, it's just a feeling.<br /><br />PS. I like Faile<br /><br />PPS. I really like Faile<br /><br />PPPS FAILE IS COOL<br /><br />PPPS FAILE IS REALLY COOL<br /><br />PPPPS That's all I have to say<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smiter of cornflakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Legolas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sporks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The one and only BogDog <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 13:32:52
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
I think (and hope) Faile will survive. And Perrin&#180;s forces DO have a chance against Shaido. Sure the Shaido forces are more, but with a good strategy it might work. Maybe Faile and the others will escape and help Perrin? <br /><br />But it&#180;s true that Perrin would lose his mind if she died.


created: 2002-04-19 16:25:44
subject: <b>by george I got it</b>
body:
Berelain's man in white will be Perrin, but it wont be like everyone seems to think (Perrin in mourning).  Perrin will find the Shaido and dress as a gaishan and march right in the middle of the shaido camp and rescue Faile, Morgase, and the other captives.  Then in some ta`veren swirling the brotherless will turn on the Shaido and will join Perrin as he begins trying to crush the Shaido.  The Brotherless are displeased with Sevanna and will turn the tide of the battle in favor of Perrin.


created: 2002-05-08 00:08:58
subject: <b>I guess I am the only one that thought this...</b>
body:
Where will the prophet be all this time that Perrin is warring and breserking?  What are they going to do with him???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 11:08:07
subject: <b>Read the Untouchable Blacksmiths theory</b>
body:
This guy has a good idea that merits your attention to settle what will most likely happen to Faile and the Shaido.<br />Give it a look'see and write your POV.<br /><br />(I bow to the many gifted writers to this thread.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 23:33:23
subject: <b>axe or hammer</b>
body:
on the issue of perrin going psycho i think there's a good chance. since the first book its been a major issue. elyas tells perrin to give up the axe when he starts liking it. that may have began to happen. at the beginning of crown of swords perrin tries not to think about the battle at the wells &quot;a dark seed growing.&quot; i think the wolf in him is comung out.<br /><br />oh and by the way faile is perrins link to the broken crown and she'll be around until he gets it. sorry.....


created: 2002-07-30 13:23:12
subject: <b>Here's what WILL happen...</b>
body:
and I know this because I'm RJ's milk man and he told me...he just brought it up one day.<br /><br />Perrin finally catches up to the Aiel camp and mounts a rescue but he gets there <i>just</i> too late and SNAPS. I mean he goes off. He loses himself as a wolf and starts hamstringing people and ripping out their throats all the while shouting &quot;NEVERBORN!!!!&quot; (see early TDR fight scene, it's worth a laugh).<br /><br />So he's all wacked out and stuff and then he shaves off his beard with the axe and puts it down to put on gai'shain white. Thus, with Faile out of the picture (as she is now dead) and Perrin in white, along comes Berelain and Masema. Masema also puts on white, but Berelain falls for <i>him</i> and they run off leaving Perrin. Meanwhile, the Two Rivers farmers mount an attack with their bows but they forgot all the arrows so they're f*cked and get slaughtered.<br /><br />This is all will happen in CoT.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 10:17:00
subject: <b>WC</b>
body:
The whitecloaks will join Perrin and there are definitely a lot more than a thousand. Remember Pedron Niall was gathering every !@#!#%#&amp;@# whitecloak in Randland, leaving token garrissons everywhere, and Valda managed to get most of the whitecloaks out of the battle with the Seanchan, so there's at least 100000 whitecloaks around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-03 08:12:59
subject: <b>A Whole Bunch of Crap</b>
body:
1. Re: The man in white theory: Min never saw that the man in white was gonna return those feelings, so it might not be that Berelain and Galad get together. However, given RJ's tradition of happy couples (e.g. Domon/Egeanin, Juilin/Amathera) it's highly likely they will.<br /><br />2. Re: Important deaths: Personally, I feel a major (but not MAJOR) character will die in book 10. I think it'll be Morgase, because everyone thinks she's dead anyway, she could be killed while escaping the Shaido and Elayne being Queen should only really happen when she's totally dead (as an ironic twist)<br /><br />3. Re: Faile: As any fool doth know, Faile is one of the best female characters in WoT unlike the following...<br /><br />4. Re: Annoying females: How anyone can say Faile is worse than any of Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Min, Cadsuane, Alanna, Elaida, Breane and Lini is beyond me? The only truly good females in WoT are: Faile, Moiraine, Birgitte and Graendel.<br /><br />5: A whole theory about Perrin and I didn't mention him once! Wait... D'oh!!!<br /><br />&quot;A dark power is rising...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;A dark power is rising ... and it brought cookies!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 23:28:45
subject: <b>Faile...</b>
body:
What's all this about Faile dying?<br /><br />If you don't like Faile because of what she does to Perrin, remember, he loves her, so deal with her for his sake<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />By the way.  Jordan killed off TWO good characters, Asmodean (he was a good guy when he died), and Moiraine.  remember TFOH?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The call of the wolf shall strike fear into the hearts of criminals, for they shall know that their time on this Earth is short<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />-Darkwolf Bloodsbane, Lord of Darkness, the Destroyer<br />Shut up, 'Wolf<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />-Me, Lord of Light, the Preserver</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 13:40:12
subject: <b>It is not possible.</b>
body:
As was already stated, there are not enough troops, even with the Whitecloaks.  However, when you think about it, Galad would have little to no reason to help Perrin.  Galad, being a Whitecloak now, possibly also believes &quot;Perrin Goldeneyes&quot; to be a darkfriend.


created: 2003-06-18 07:17:36
subject: <b>At last! Somebody sane!</b>
body:
No, I'm not talking about this Berzerker rubbish, but Mat alBara who has stated the obvious: Faile is one of the best female characters (actually, she's my favourite character). Nynaeve... what's with her? Egwene's a bit weird too. Elayne needs a good slap, and of course there's the Aes Sedai, all of whom are as arrogant as hell. Sure, Faile can be a bit irrational, but I reckon that Perrin's gonna stop all this forcing-argument nonsense soon (as she dreamed) and they'll continue to live happily.<br />And as for Berelain, she's the worst. Hitting on a guy whose wife might be dead!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-24 16:34:44
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
i disagree but something similar could happen like a huge battle were perrin saves faile but perrin will be supported by the seachan not the white cloaks.  as for beralains &quot;man in white&quot; i have no idea<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-07 17:53:33
subject: <b>Yeah Right</b>
body:
Um...NO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-09 07:38:14
subject: <b>Woot! Egwene lovers... ignore!</b>
body:
I apologize in advance if I offend Egwene lovers.. I figure'd I'd post this on a theory that has been disproven. Another oppurtunity to Egwene bash!!! Ahem... Faile is an awesome character, probably my second favorite female character after Tuon. Unlike Egwene, whom others have brought up as being either annoying or good. Keep in mind I despise nearly every bone in Egwene's body... but still respect her... odd. Faile is way superior to Egwene personality wise for the following reasons(imho): she has never gone against what Rand wants. She may not like him, however she recognizes him as the DR and seems to understand that other people have their own intrests, whereas Egwene seems to think that the WT is always right and that all should have the WTs intrests in heart. Egwene is very conniving and illegaly is sitting in the AS. Faile on the other hand is remarkably straight forward, unless something must be done for someones own good(getting help instead of going to Caemlyn in TSR for one). Faile seems to understand that you can't fight destiny... either Egwene knows nothing about the Prophecies of the Dragon, thinks fate can change, or has decided that &quot;unstained tower breaks bends knee to the forgotten sign&quot; means that the BT and Rand must bend to her somehow. Though lots of AS characters tend to ignore that bit of prophecy. Elayne is also annoying, but not on this scale and she is at least the legal Queen as opposed to  an impostor to the AS like Egwene is. Now onto Cadsuane haters... wtf? Cadsuane is awesome, she judges on merit as opposed to strength in power. She seems to be much more aware that the tower must eventually follow Rand, Cadsuane is merely trying to make sure that its on the WTs terms. She does not seem to care fully that AS are bonded to Asha'man or that some AS swore to Rand. At least not like most AS seem to. Cadsuane, we KNOW has Rand's best interests in heart NOT the WTs, NOT AS, NOT her own. And by having Rand's interests in heart, she has the world's in heart. Cadsuane ranks right after Faile for me. I personally think she is prepared to bow to Rand as soon as Rand starts controlling his temper and relearns he is human. Now I apologize again for this little rant... I don't understand Elayne/Faile/Cadsuane/Nyneave haters when we have Egwene to hate! Particularly when Cadsuane and Faile are so cool!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 08:38:16
subject: <b>Bad people</b>
body:
I can't help but agree that there are too many bad characters knocking about in Randland. In fact there are too many characters full stop. Admittedly I have a tiny brain and the attention span of a gnat and its also true that the sheer scope of his world is part of the appeal but I could live without reading about yet another Aes Sedai novice or red or bloody green that we've never heard of before.<br /><br />In nine books, we've only had one decent major battle (Dumai's Wells). We need another one, if only for population control. I personally can't wait for the Tower/Salidar battle. That should thin the ranks a little.<br /><br />One question though. Just how many people are following Rand around when he's in Caemlyn, Cairhien, Tear, Illian. Between Sea Folk, Wise Ones, Aiel, Asha'man, Aes Sedai, Saldaeans and bloody Min, he must have enough already to take to the last battle. <br /><br />Rant over. I do love this site.


created: 2001-08-03 09:06:11
subject: <b>RAFO</b>
body:
Obviously the author of the theory hasn't read WH. I think it was Lily in Winter chapter, where the Forsaken had a meeting with their Na'eblis. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />During that meeting before Ishy arrived Demandred thought something about <b>at least</b> a dozen of <b>Chosen</b> that died because the DO was displeased with their actions remaing 4 could have been killed by the forces of Light. If you consider the fact that during the AoL there were many many more people than &quot;now&quot;, 29, the supposed number of Forsaken isn't that big and may be accepted as true. The weaker may had just become Dreadlords.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-03 09:19:22
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I think either I missed something, or wotmania did, because there's nothing in the theory that I read to indicate that any of the Chosen are/were alive in the present day except the thirteen sealed in the Bore.  The others were simply remembered as Dreadlords, not Forsaken.  Good post.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 11:19:32
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
I was going to say the same thing as Vanin, that the Chosen ranks were thinned by the DO.  However, he beat me to the punch.  <br /><br />Kudos to Vanin!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Mystriously Named One<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 19:26:41
subject: <b>Vanin AOBtD just ofr the record....</b>
body:
.... I seemed to have forgotten/overlooked the portion of WH where other Chosen are mentioned. I do agree that any Forsaken beyond the 13 important ones were thinned out for various reasons and not remembered in history.<br /><br />   Afterall the fact that the DO hasn't resurrected any of these other 29 True Power weilders tends to indicate that they weren't that important to him in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 18:37:50
subject: <b>IMHO</b>
body:
I always thought that the Forsaken that did not survive were killed by the other Forsaken.  I don't think that the DO has any problems with them killing each other.(Culling the wheat from the chaff)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 09:56:00
subject: <b>something everybody overlooked...</b>
body:
Shadar Haran (sp? darn it!) has access to the True Power, and NOWHERE it is said that all of the Forsaken have access to the TP. In fact, it would make them invincible opponents... think about it for a second... would Sammy have been toast if he could just have sent a weave Rand didn't see and couldn't fight? I think only two of three people (Shadar Thing, Morridin, maybe another) have access to the TP &quot;now&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 14:03:54
subject: <b>Ananke</b>
body:
First off, several of the Forsaken have thought to themselves that they had access to TP, but that the price of using it is too high, except in the most dire of situations.  Sammael was arrogant and believed that he could take out Rand with saidin, or just let Mashadar get him.  <br /><br />As for the original theory Demandred(I believe) mentioned that the Forsaken used to fight each other as much as the forces of the Light during the AoL.  The DO had no problem with this since he wanted only the strongest.  I think that it's mentioned that the &quot;remaining&quot; 13 Forsaken were trapped with the DO, therefore the rest were already dead.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 09:58:45
subject: <b>Once there were 29 Forsaken,</b>
body:
the other sixteen just all got killed by either the forces of LTT, the DO or the other Forsaken (I remember Demandred saying something about him, Semirhage and Mesaana having defeated many opponents together, and I don't think he is talking about LTT's men there). As for the TP, in the beginning of the series all the Forsaken had access to it (even if they didn't dare using it) but after Shaidar Haran has been introduced and Moridin has been appointed Nae'blis, only those two have still access to the TP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 10:02:45
subject: <b>Something else</b>
body:
someone said above that we only had one decent battle so far, being Dumai's Wells. I think that person failed to remember the big Aiel battle in tFoH, which had, if I recall correctly, easily five times as many people involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 10:43:46
subject: <b>other battles</b>
body:
let's not forget the battle in Falme (heroes of the horn, children of the light, Seanchean army) &amp; the battle at Tarwins' Gap (borderland army, trollocs)<br /><br />I think that one of the other 16 forsaken is Beidomon. (who drilled a hole in the Bore with Lanfear)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Belgium's best kept secret <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />!! vote for Wesley Clark !!<br /><br />give me a freeking job will ya!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 01:33:58
subject: <b>there were other chosen</b>
body:
in WH, in Wonderful News<br /><br />Demandred thinks....&quot;During the War of Power, more than a dozen of the Chosen had died of the Great Lord's suspicion.&quot;


created: 2007-02-14 20:38:47
subject: <b>you mean &quot;RANDLAND&quot;</b>
body:
hehehe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lad, I'm the best damn Gleemen ever&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> --&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&quot;Shall i never know who killed Asmodean&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 11:11:47
subject: <b>#3 is proves more that Lan doesn't know Tam.</b>
body:
3: Lan muses on where Tam got the sword to Rand: &quot;He (Tam) called it useless, did he?&quot; (The Eye of the World) &quot;He must not have always thought so.&quot;<br /><br />This, to me, more implies that he doesn't know Tam.  I would think that if Lan had known Tam when Tam was wielding the sword he would have said something more like: &quot;He did not always think so.&quot;  This would have shown intimate knowledge of Tam's beliefs.  &quot;He must not...&quot; seems to imply guessing at Tam's behavior.<br /><br />2 cents


created: 2001-08-03 11:13:32
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
It seems to me that Tam, being a memeber of the Village Council, probably had the opportunity to meet Lan while he was in the 2R.  If Lan had been a pupil of Tam's, I would think that there would be some kind of fondness, or at least recognition bewteen the two of them.  However, I don't remember even a glimpse of recognition in tEotW (of course it has been awhile since I last read it). <br /><br />Besides, I believe Tam and Lan are about the same age, so it is unlikely that a farmer with hay in his hair would teach anyhting to an uncrowned king of an extinct borderland who grew up with crack soldiers, etc, etc, etc.<br /><br />I don't know, it's possible, but I doubt it.  I think it is just too much of a coincidence.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Mysteriously Named One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 14:37:36
subject: <b>And on first names...</b>
body:
Lan probably calls Tam &quot;Tam&quot; instead of &quot;al'Thor&quot; because there are two different &quot;al'Thor&quot;s, Tam and Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 19:24:08
subject: <b>Possible</b>
body:
I don't think Tam taught Lan the Flame and the Void though. Oh, and on first names, EVERYONE calls Logain Logain, and thinks of him that way. I have never seen a character refer to him as &quot;Ablar.&quot; Toviene tries, but can't make herself becuase Logain is the name he made famous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 19:44:20
subject: <b>Help me!</b>
body:
I'm getting trashed here! Well, I think that Tam would not want to mix with Aes Sedai and/or Warders after whatever it was that happened, happened (Ishy tell Rand that his father was &quot;...chosen by the White Tower, like a stalion roped and led to his business&quot; &lt;tEotW, ch. 14, pg. 204 paperback.&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. That is why he did not associate with Lan. Also, Lan and Tam were together at one time, when Tam was saying goodbye to Rand. At this time (as mentioned in my theory), Lan gave Tam the respect of letting him talk to Rand. Would Lan go against Moiraine's wishes (for Rand to hear the story) to be kind to a &quot;farmer with hay in his hair&quot;? I DON'T THINK SO! To further prove this, I just finished tGH again. At one point, Moiraine is talking to Lan in Adeleas'/Vandene's library. Lan basically chews her out when she tells him of her preperations to pass his bond to Myrelle, and tell her that he ALWAYS followed her orders, even when he questioned them. Would Lan wait for Tam to say goodbye for no reason? Two last things: Tam had the unbreakable sword of a King, Lan has one of a normal footsoldier. Which is harder to get? I thought so. Would Lan tell a young boy whom he had just met his life story? Nope. That is why he beat around the bush like he did when he said &quot;He must not have always thought it so.&quot; Lan, like RJ, has a way of thinking that something should be obvious when nobody else sees the extreme subtlety(sp?). NOW WHO KILLED ASMODEAN?????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 19:45:11
subject: <b>If they did meet...</b>
body:
...Then I think it more likely that Lan would have taught Tam the flame and the void. What's more likely, a farmer knowing a combat skill that a warder trainednoble doesn't, or the other way around?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 20:01:27
subject: <b>UH-UH</b>
body:
Tam would have taught Lan the void as he was a blade master first. Using my rough math, Tam was 20 when he left the 2 riv. 10 years to become blademaster while rising through the army, which led on another 5 years through the wars, so he was a blademaster for about 7 years at the time of the Aiel war. Lan was probably considered a blademaster at the time of the Aiel war (age 23-26 or something), so he had fought with a sword for 13 years to the AW (10 when he got sword). Tam had fought with the blade for 15 through REAL wars, such as the ones between Illian and Tear, and the Whitecloak war, which really means that he was more experienced that Lan. <br />PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING: For the record, I think that Tam was/is better with a sword that Lan. Proof, you say? OK. Lan (in NS) kills 6 men in a 6-on-1 fight, and says that he is lucky beyond belief, and he was 26 at the time. In tEotW, Tam kills 8 Trollocs in like, a 12-on-1 fight. He was about 55 at the time!!! <br />FOR THE RECORD: I think that Tam is comparable to (even though I'm not a huge fan of Star Wars) Obi-Wan Kenobi(sp?) Tam is probably the greatest commander of troops alive today, with the exception of Mat, and he will play a huge part in the series as it draws to a close. Mark my words...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 22:32:31
subject: <b>Not to be picky</b>
body:
but i don't think Tam's blade was unbreakable... i seem to remember it being destryed in the battle with ishy in the sky.  Then again who knows if a Forsaken can break a blade like that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Daneish<br />-King of the Danes<br />-Eater of toast<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 23:09:41
subject: <b>Moiraine said...</b>
body:
that the blade was unbreakable cause it was made with the power. Lan said this also, I just can't remember where. It's in there, though!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 23:46:58
subject: <b>Unbreakable blade</b>
body:
But the sword's broken now, isn't it? I thought that Rand only had the hilt left.<br /><br />Also, about Lan's fighting ability: I'd say that fighting men is harder than fighting Trollocs. Rand also fights six men at the beginning of LoC, and he barely defeats five, and gets whacked by the sixth. I've always imagined Trolloc fighting as butchery, without any real art-- they probably don't even move that fast to avoid parries. Didn't Rand kill one in TEotW as well? And he'd never used a sword in his life. Men, on the other hand, if they're trained with a sword (as Lan's opponents and Rand's opponents were) will block and dodge, as well as use more skillful manoeuvers. No offense to Trolloc-lovers, but they're not the smartest limbs on the evolutionary tree. Didn't Jearom (greatest swordsman ever) only face <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />10 men at a time and win?<br /><br />Tam, I'm sure, is a *very good* swordsman. As is Rand. As is Lan. And Galad, and Gawyn, and nearly every *other* important male in the series. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> But until they go fight each other, or are in similar situations, I don't think that they can be compared to each other. (that's like asking, around book 2, who's more skilled with the Power, Moiraine or Siuan-- how are we supposed to know? We just know that they're both pretty good.)


created: 2001-08-03 23:58:47
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Well I'm gonna root for the underdog on this one cause I really like this theory. Though they may not have met before, I bet Lan knows of Tam at least by reputation if not in full.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-04 01:40:35
subject: <b>Lanfear/Selene also new of the flame and the void ...</b>
body:
but called it something different when she was wandering with Rand and Hurin and Loial in an alternate world (Portal stone traveling).  So, we know it didin't come from Tam's mind and its is unlikely that Tam taught it to Lan ... although others might not mention it, it is a &quot;trick&quot; that has existed for many years ...<br />IMHO<br />... love the rest of the theory tho!  I'm all for Lan and Tam being chums.<br />Angela<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Terpsi<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Queen of Terpsiland<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" />Goddess of her realm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Dancer Extraordinaire</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 05:17:28
subject: <b>To AOBtD</b>
body:
This doesn't support or refute the connection between Lan and Tam. But in case that you have forgotten, Tam was in a fever inspired stupor after Rand rescued him from the trollocs. Tam had no idea where or when he was and nothing on his earlier visit to 2R's indicated that he had time to actually meet with the strangers (i.e. Lan) while there. Realizing that time was of the essence, Lan did't have time to wait on Tam to be rested enough relive the glory days of their youth, assuming that they knew each other before.


created: 2001-08-04 07:45:13
subject: <b>Problem</b>
body:
I think Tam was too late to teach Lan the Void. Lan was born in 953 NE (from the Guide), and he was taught by Malkier's finest from his cradle... he would have known about the ko'di by around 14 i would say, so 967 NE. For Tam to have taught him he would have had to leave the Two rivers by 960 at the earliest; he has to learn about it himself, get good at the sword (5 years for bladesmaster), then go off to wherever Lan is to teach him. That would mean he was away from the 2 rivers for 20ears, which i find unlikely...


created: 2001-08-04 16:27:38
subject: <b>I DO like this theory</b>
body:
It's my kind of thing. It is possible that Tam taught Lan, if not likely. We know that at the end of the Aiel War Lan was good at sword fighting, but yet he could be easily beaten by ezperienced swordsmen. Tam, however, at this time had been Second in command of the Illianer Companions and a Blademaster with a Power-wrought sword. What's more is that he had held this position for some time, since the Aiel War lasted 3 years and he had the position during the Battle of the Shining Walls, near the end of the War.<br /><br />By this time Lan was only 20 and all his mentors were dead or very old. Also in New Spring I think it says somewhere that they had arrived from the far south. Im not sure if it actually mentions Illian anywhere but it would be worth a look. Since Tam is only a bit older than Lan it is likely that if they did meet and practice the sword, they would get on better than Bukama and Lan. As for who taught who the Flame and the Void, I think that this was Lan teaching Tam. It is likely that Lan learned this early, as Rand did.<br /><br />But alternatively, Moiraine knew all Tam and Kari's background info so that is maybe how Lan knows about Tam. Then again it is very possible that they met. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 04:01:15
subject: <b>Possible</b>
body:
It's possible that lan knew OF him, but didn't know him personally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> I am Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 15:29:11
subject: <b>this is REALY not such a good theory...</b>
body:
sorry to shatter it but do you remember that when moraine cures tam that lan is there? meaning that he would at LEAST be suprised to see him if he DID knew him...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Buffy: 'ho, been a long while since i met one who didn't know me, you should get home' <br /><br />Kid: 'how did you do that?'<br /><br />Buffy: 'it is what i do...'<br /><br />Kid: 'You...but you are just a girl!'<br /><br />Buffy: 'that is what I keep saying' <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 02:05:13
subject: <b>Have you forgotten...</b>
body:
That Lan is a rock and does not show any emotion? He is committed to Moiraine's cause. Come on, people, Get it together! That's the first thing that you should know about Lan. sheesh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 02:18:47
subject: <b>Click...</b>
body:
While i do not agree with you, I do like your signatures. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 09:38:46
subject: <b>Two points...</b>
body:
1.  Lan's sword is <b>not</b> the sword of a foot soldier...it is the sword of Malkieri kings, identified as such in TEOTW...so your theory that Tam's sword was a king's sword is an assumption wheras Lan's sword is one in fact<br /><br />2.  also in TEOTW, Lan is surprised when Rand already knows about the flame and the void and tells him that he learned it from Tam....if Lan had also learned it from Tam, why would he be surprised???<br /><br />I think it's possible that they had met, maybe even fought somewhat together during the battle but the rest is kind of a reach.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 11:51:26
subject: <b>Thanks Maxell</b>
body:
Your observation is correct, but I still think there would have been a lot of &quot;Tai'Shar&quot;ing back and forth, or some sort of respect paid to a mentor.  <br /><br />Also, I agree that if Tam taught the Void to Lan, Lan would not be surprised that Rand already knows it, as mentioned above.  <br /><br />While it maybe possible that Lan knew OF Tam based on the timelines and such, it is a BIG reach to assume that Lan was Tam's student.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Mysteriously Named One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 13:37:20
subject: <b>Tam bought his sword</b>
body:
&quot;I got it a long time ago, Tam said, a long way from here.  And paid entirely too much, two coppers is too much for one of these.  Your mother didn't approve, but she was wiser than I.  I was young then, and it seemed worth the price at the time.&quot;<br /><br />Also Tam never faces 12 Trollocs at once, the first few he killed were as they came one by one into the house, he even explains that the only reason he got away is because they were coming into the well lite house which would have made them nearly blind for a short time.<br /><br />I also have to agree with whoever posted about Lan being surprised that Rand knew the flame and void if Tam had taught it to Lan or the other way around he shouldn't have been surprised.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 14:42:01
subject: <b>Same master..</b>
body:
Does anyone other than me think that perhaps Tam didn't teach Lan about the Flame/Void, but instead a third person taught both of them.  They could have been trained at the same &quot;School&quot; or possibly by the same master.  Someone stated above that they might have fought together against the Aeil, so they could have had the same master swordsmen then.  <br /><br />It could be that, or maybe that is just something blademasters do.  Maybe it is part of the blademaster training.  Sure the Warders don't generally teach it, but perhaps there are seperate classes for people who try to atain the blademaster rank, and it is taught there.  All we have seen of the training is with the younger warder-in-trainings (the two Gs class).  <br /><br />Just a thought.<br />


created: 2001-08-06 18:05:26
subject: <b>I agree with you</b>
body:
They could have had the same master. I like the theory on Elyas Machera being a Malkieri...so he could be a candidate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 21:55:46
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I like the theory, but here's my addition:  Lan knows Tam by sight and reputation.  Hence his respect.  However, if Lan doesn't know Tam personally, then he's not really the type to say &quot;Hey, you don't know me, but...&quot;<br />This seems the most likely to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 23:50:31
subject: <b>Well,</b>
body:
This post has become the topic of some heated debate, and I couldnt be happier <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />  Well, in resopnse to, well, someone, i say this: Lan's sword is the sword of a footsoldier during the War of the Power. Tam's sword is the sword of a GENERAL during the war of power. My words were technically off, but everyone knows what I meant, except you. <br />By the way, I really like the idea of someone else teaching Lan and Tam BOTH the F&amp;V, though I doubt that he was Lan's master. Mabye another blademaster in the Aiel War? Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 13:41:56
subject: <b>Re:Jim</b>
body:
Just because Tam says two coppers is too much to pay for a sword doesn't mean he paid two coppers for it. . . It might not even be a monetary payment he's talking about.  Maybe if he hadn't bought the sword, Kari wouldn't have died, or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">( &#8226; &gt; Penguin ( &#8226; &gt;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> PC hater <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 16:31:34
subject: <b>Tam knows Lan</b>
body:
I like this idea.  However I think Lan taught Tam.   Tam was a sheepherder before<br />he left the 2R so how would he know about the void unless someone taught him.  We<br />also know Lan's been fighting since birth - weapons were his toys.    <br /><br /> Anyway, this explains the affection Lan showed Rand in (GH).   He's just like a proud uncle or grandfather assuming<br />he was close to Tam before Tam returned to the 2 Rivers which would have been about the<br />same time Lan and Moir joined together.   In GH Moir asked Lan if he remembers when they first met about 20 years before. Rand is about 20 and Tam returned to 2R when Rand was just a baby  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-11 10:06:27
subject: <b>Unbreakable sword?</b>
body:
Nice theory . . . and what I have to say doesn't dispute it.  I just want to point out something about it.  The sword Tam gave Rand isn't unbreakable.  It broke during Rand's battle in the clouds with Balzamon (I don't have a book handy for the spelling, but you know who I'm talking about), when Rand stabbed him in the chest.  Thus the reason Rand now uses the sword once owned by Lamam (minues all the baubles).  So either Tam's sword was not power-wrought or power-wrought blades aren't completely unbrekable.  Just a thought.


created: 2001-08-11 10:38:24
subject: <b>Tam didn't teach Lan, nor the other way around</b>
body:
1. In New Spring Jordan clearly says that Lan had year's of practice in ko'di (his name for the Flame and the Void), since New Spring takes place just after the Aiel War Tam couldn't be Lan's teacher.<br /><br />2. If Lan thaught Tam, he would also use the name ko'di, so this is also out fo the question.<br /><br />3. It was a big army and a large battle, so it is unlikely that they met in the Aiel war, but it is possible that they knew eachother's rep.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord Sigmar<br /><br />Today is a good day to die</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 10:13:19
subject: <b>For those who doubt Tam's sword,</b>
body:
it really WAS power-wrought, that was what Lan said, and one would think he knows those things pretty well since he is a warder.<br />My opinion is that the fact that the blade was broken shows how important and remarkable the events in Falme were. I mean, battling with perhaps the mightiest Forsaken in the sky isn't just what happens every day, even to the Dragon Reborn. It also points out that Rand survived only by a hair, obtaining his never-healing wound and all.<br />The breaking of the sword also led to the situation where Rand didn't have a sword anymore, and had to use the Power more often to protect himself.<br />But now I'm wandering off the original point... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I just wanted to point out that the sword was power-wrought and that its breaking up had a reason.<br />And finally, to Green Gaidin, I agree with you (if not in all) and I believe after reading your theory that Lan and Tam know each other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Ciel<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 13:12:36
subject: <b>It's kinda obvious that the sword IS breakable...</b>
body:
At the very least by balefire. Duh. Heartstone is the hardest to break, next power-wrought metal, but both can be broken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-wink-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 11:23:27
subject: <b>Knew of, not Knows</b>
body:
Just to say I really enjoyed this theory, makes you think what the characters did before they were famous.<br /><br />I think that the most likely thing was that the pair knew of each other by rep. but wouldn't have met with them being a bit busy before and during the battle of Blood Snow and the War taking in such a large area, from the spine of the world to the shining walls.<br /><br />My main reason for thinking they weren't aquaintances is that they would have looked each other up after the battle to make sure the other wasn't dead (esp. if either had taught the other sword-play)Fact is if this happened Lan would have known of Tam's mysterious child and it would have taken less than 20 or so years for him and Moiraine to connect the dots (Tam's name on the list NS)<br /><br />Almost got close to ranting there, so much more to discuss; power-wrought blades, the flame and void, how did Tam get his blade?(nice idea by the way) etc.<br /><br />Dai Lau  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-09-01 10:52:32
subject: <b>Tam didn't buy his sword</b>
body:
As a sidenote to the post that states that Tam bought his sword, instead of recieving it as a reward from the Illianer king, I'll have to disagree. Tam did NOT say that he bought it.<br /><br />&quot;I got it a long time ago, Tam said, a long way from here. And paid entirely too much, two coppers is too much for one of these. Your mother didn't approve, but she was wiser than I. I was young then, and it seemed worth the price at the time.&quot;<br /><br />All he's really saying is that a sword like that wasn't worth two coppers (with everything that comes with it), and the price he paid (in blood, memories, most likely) wasn't worth it.<br /><br />Although I like the idea that Lan might have known (of) Tam in the past (and about the whitecloak war), I don't see any evidence that Tam was Lan's teacher.<br /><br />/ps


created: 2001-09-08 08:26:48
subject: <b>like the theory but..</b>
body:
i think that they may know each other by name and reputation,not personally though, and as for your comment in yout theorie that when in the GH Rand was going to see the amyrlin, Land chooses a red with golden jacket, and said the colors were right, it wasn't a comment towards Tam, Those are the colors of the dragon ,remember?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Death is lighter then a feather, Duty heavier then a mountain.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 16:18:35
subject: <b>hmmmmm...</b>
body:
Tam's sword is unbreakable by conventional means. Those being anything remotely likely to happen to any normal person. also as i recall (though i could be off here) the sword melted when Rand impaled Ba'alzamon up in the sky. Being that BZM was likely holding saidin at the time, (it might have been the True Source) this could have melted the sword and caused it to break. also, it is possible that Tam and Lan could know eachother, but until i have more in depth information i won't comment on whether i think they are intimates or not. One more thing. Tam BOUGHT the heron marked sword. While i certainly will not refute the genius of Jordan's work, i highly doubt that even he would word Tam's casual talk into something that can be interpreted as something entirely opposite. besides, what motive does Tam have to lie about buying the sword? he doesn't. As for believing that he didn't buy the sword by proof of him saying how much he paid for it, is a streach that even Jordan would laugh about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-14 16:06:03
subject: <b>Tam and Lan</b>
body:
OK, I know that this is going to seem pretty out-there to some of you, but has anyone considered the fact that *perhaps* Tam is Malkieri, and one of Lan's 5 surviving bodyguards?<br /><br />Just something for you folks to chew on for a bit...


created: 2001-11-14 16:09:00
subject: <b>RE: Richard Althor, Tam did not pay for the sword.</b>
body:
&quot;I got it a long time ago, Tam said, a long way from here. And paid entirely too much, two coppers is too much for one of these. Your mother didn't approve, but she was wiser than I. I was young then, and it seemed worth the price at the time.&quot;<br /><br />Tam never said he paid two coppers for it, he never said that he paid any monetary unit for the sword.  I have always been of the belief that he is talking about the price in blood and the lives of friends lost earning the sword and the lives of those he killed in the war.


created: 2001-11-28 16:38:13
subject: <b>The power wrought swords</b>
body:
The 2 we can be sure of belonged to kings, Rand has king Lamens blade now and Lans sword is the sword of the Malrakie king.  It would make sense that the 3rd blade, the one rand got from tam could also belonged to a king and been received as a gift/reward/honor for reasons already mentioned.


created: 2001-12-04 15:31:01
subject: <b>Big fan of the 3rd Party Idea.</b>
body:
I like the idea that Tam and Lan learned from a third party together.  It doesn't necessarily explain why Lan doesn't use the term ko'di.  Maybe he learned it along with his other training as a kid, but he does recognize the phrase F&amp;V, and so must have come into contact with someone who used it.  Doesn't patch up many holes, but it works with regards to timing and dates, etc... <br /><br />Neat idea in general.  I really like Lan and Tam both.  It would be pretty radical if Tam came out of nowhere during TG to start kicking some DF fannies alongside Lan.<br /><br />Lan isn't the type of guy to openly show emotion on his face.  Obviously, Tam is trying to hide something from Rand.  Did everyone forget that at this point Rand has no idea who/what he's descended from? BIG SECRET. <br />If Lan shows up and Rand has *no idea* about his Dad's sword and whatnot, he's not the type of guy to blow it and tell his buddy's son that he knew his dad from the Aiel War and he wasn't actually a farmer, but a well trained general(second in command - whatever) in a regimen known for their skill and bravery. (Sorry about the run-on)  *<br />&quot;Well, it's like this, Rand...&quot; Yeah, I just don't see it.  Lan actually has tact, and is one of the few men in the series, other than Thom, who do.  *<br />He is one of the few characters completely devoid of emotion throughout most of the series. The only times he shows emotion are when Moiraine/Nynaeve upsets him, and when he warms up to Rand and helps him prepare, picks out the coat etc... So, he wouldn't pipe up as Tam's being healed and say &quot;Hey! Tam! Funny meeting you here! How's the Heron sword?&quot;  No way.  Not his style at all.<br /><br />Lan also wouldn't have given Rand the time of day if he didn't know him or his father. (Good point about the argument between Moiraine and Lan over his bond.) He wouldn't have gone against her orders if he didn't have any personal connection to Rand/Tam. She wanted the group to haul a$$ out of there.  Why did he allow for the goodbye if not out of respect for Tam?  I think that point alone proves that Tam and Lan at least knew of each other. <br /><br />They probably met in training and fought together.  <br /><br />The whole teaching thing isn't it, I do think they learned together though.  Where? No idea. Not even the foggiest notion of where RJ will go with this if *indeed* they know each other.  Which I think they do. <br />I, too, enjoy the theory that Elyas is Malkieri.  The possibilites.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 19:36:16
subject: <b>I hate to attack your flanks, but....</b>
body:
Remember when Lan is teaching Rand how to use a sword in TEOTW?<br />Lan tells Rand to become one with the sword.. yadda yadda yadda.<br />Rand says something to the effect, &quot;Like the void and the flame?&quot;<br />Lan says he doesn't know it by that name.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-01-08 15:56:00
subject: <b>rambling about stuff i forget who said what about.....</b>
body:
A few points...without any research, but still worth two cents.(coppers)<br /><br />1)Tam's sword had herons on it. Lan's doesn't. Given that the Power-wrought swords still existing are scarce in this age/time (even tho they're unbreakable...go figure), I wager that all of them would have wound up in the possession of the overly rich, highly decorated war-heroes, or Kings. Hence both swords are from Kings, but likely King Laman's sword (with the herons) was really a *King's* sword or meant for a higher-station when it was made. Lan's Malkier sword was and is now &quot;a King's sword&quot;, but perhaps not was its intention in creation.<br /><br />2)Tam's fever dream/speech was hardly a passing conversation and clearly shows his gratitude/value of the sword itself by defining its worth as less than the worth of two coppers. I doubt he paid anything for it, in light of his station in the war. I suspect he was given it as reward or gift or prize, considering the inherent and monetary value of any heron-mark sword....let alone one that is 3000 years old. Lan remarks on how few people can identify the swords or even know they exist, yet persons who would covet such would certainly know what they are. This reaffirms Tam's lack of awe/respect/desire for the sword as a resentment, not a pride. I don't think Tam is proud of the Aiel War, his rise, his conquest (whatever that is, yet to be known really), or reward, or losing his wife ... look at where he is, he returned to the Two River's to be a shepherd and he locked away his sword for 15(?) years. Tam's remorse and loss is manifest in his lack of pride for the sword. What is Tam proud of?<br /><br />3)Tam is proud of Rand and sought to protect him before all else in tEotW. I agree with the green-warder guy that Tam knows Lan's identity beyond that of a Warder, but I doubt its a friendship or anything personal. I suspect Lan knew Tam by reputation and perhaps even served under him at some point, but wasn't about to confound his and Morraine's plan to expedite Rand from the Two Rivers. Just as likely, Tam recognized Lan (there couldn't have been many Malkier swordsmen wearing leather headbands with long hair and stoney faces no doubt making names for themselves in the Aier War) and wasn't about to make Rand anymore suspect to Morraine than he already was. Tam and Lan are practical and not given to revealing more than needs be. They're team players.<br /><br />4)Lan avoids the 'flame and the void' reference when Rand first asks him about it. Lan defines it by saying 'burn your emotions into empty space', or something, as he was trying to get the result of a skill without teaching anything of matter to the boys. Perhaps the Ko'di (sp?) includes a 'flame and void' or just has the same elements. Perhaps its something Tam picked up and he coined his own phraze for teaching purpose for Rand. (Heres my unresearched theory tho: its a male Aes Sedai action taught much like Aes Sedai flower/saidar thing for relaxation and concentration that was passed down for however many thousand years resulting in a recognized practice by bladesmasters, as they became the most formidable and respected human weapons.) Lan says, 'shut up sheepherder, i can't make you into a bladesmaster in one lesson', or something ... not &quot;i don't know it by that name&quot;...Lan acknowledges the flame and the void thing as a bladesmaster practice. (saying so isn't a stretch of RJ's writing practice) Even Siun notices it when Rand turns 'flame and void' on her in GH....asking if its something Lan taught him...i don't think shes refferring to his air of gusto, but that emotionless/no character/readiness of vital concentration.<br /><br />5)Also, one of the forsaken, i forget who, asks LTT-Rand 'remember when we invented sword-fighting'? I suspect the art of swordfighting and being a bladesmaster started with male Aes Sedai as mimick of the forsaken and the Dragon and now is remnant int he artform of Ko'di. Hence the mark of a heron as something uniquely-unique, such as to be found on a *King's blade* and something signifying more worth than something wordly or normal, is itself marked onto Rand, twice ... he's special.


created: 2002-01-18 10:42:31
subject: <b>The Sword</b>
body:
One scene that seems to be missing from this argument is when Rand uses the sword to cut wood to make a litter to carry Tam in. After cutting part of the cart apart, he notes that the sword is still sharp, whereas the wood should have dulled it somewhat. This supports the argument that the sword is Power-wrought.<br /><br />As for the sword eventually breaking at the battle over Falme, I believe RJ used it as symbolism. Remember when Rand sees the remains of his father's sword, he thinks to himself that his last tie to his father is severed. This all symbolizes that Rand is now accepting his fate as the Dragon Reborn, thus losing all ties to his past.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 22:11:14
subject: <b>I'm</b>
body:
a little bit late here, few will read it, but generally I do agree with you that Lan either knew Tam or knew of him, even if I don't agree with all your reasonings.


created: 2002-01-26 14:56:50
subject: <b>Maybe........</b>
body:
OK I think it could be quite possible that they know each other although even if so only briefly, perhaps they met in the battle of the shining walls, since both were where the battle was hottest.  Since Moiraine states in new spring when she is listing all the people she will be looking for Tam is one of them, highly unlikely that tam woudl go arounf telling everyone that he found a child on a mountain considering that the people in 2R don't even know, maybe lan knew tam as an breif friend and found out that way.  As for the flame and the void lots of people know that, Lanfear tlkas about it, as does Sanche when she meets rand so I don't think either one taught the other.  So maybe they have met, I hope they have actually, and lastly aside from the offhand comments by rand, he sorta protects him as well takes him under his wing if you will, kinda the thing you would do for the son of an old friend.  Finally to end this rant, Lan goes on to tell Rand that he should think of Tam as his father no matter what on the tower in TGH, why would he do this except out of respect for Tam. Done.


created: 2002-01-28 04:29:28
subject: <b>Hah!</b>
body:
This is without doubt the best theory I have seen so far - well done GG. Tam and Lan are by far my favourite characters in the book and I firmly believe that Tam is coming back as well. after all he's the biggest bad ass in the series.<br />Now, I think there is a big cover up goin on in the two rivers in TEOTW. Lan knows Tam for sure, but I am certain that Tam made a deal with Lan and all his former war buddies to leave him the hell alone after the war, let him go away with his hot wife and kid, and help him to forget his experiences away from the two rivers. He obviously had enough of all the killing and violence, all the friends he lost, and decided he was going to go back to the 2R to restart a good honest simple life to bring up his son. He is very secretive about his past, everybody suspects he was a badass but they leave him alone cause his wife died etc or out of respect for a village council member. <br />When Lan arrives, he upholds his part of the deal with his old buddy Tam, and keeps his mouth shut. the proof of this is that he lets Rand talk with his pops before going. this also explains his cryptic comments about the sword etc. <br />More importantly, when Tam says he got the sword for two coppers, I think he just pulled a random number out of his head to make the sword seem insignificant to Rand and explain why he's hidden it for 15 years. do you think he's honestly gonna say oh yeah, this sword, I got it from the king of Illian after I saved his life...&gt;???<br />great theory. props to Green Gaidin, I agree 110 %. Tam is the man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Slayer of Idiots<br />Drinker of 40s<br />Guardian of the Light<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 03:19:46
subject: <b>Distracted by irrelevancies...</b>
body:
I don't really have any conclusive evidence about the main point of this topic--other than that Lan may have known OF Tam during the Aiel War, etc. as a commander, in the same way that generals get famous in our world--but a couple of things in the arguments and counter-arguments can be answered by me.<br /><br />The &quot;color [being] right&quot; that Lan mentions about Rand's coat is a reference to his being the Dragon, and the red and gold is the coloration of the Dragon depicted on the Dragon banner and on Rand's Asha'man pins.  (Even though someone will want to say gold as in &quot;golden bees of Illian&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Also, if Tam was such a great general as someone mentioned, why did he follow Perrin's orders in tSR? (And if it was the <i>ta'veren</i> pull, why didn't he even try to give any--presumably good--advice???<br /><br />That's about it.


created: 2002-03-18 14:09:41
subject: <b>tam following perrin</b>
body:
the response to your question is in the books and tam replies something ^likje this &quot;... you took charge back at the farm&quot; Tam helps &#232;errin organise the 2r forces but doesn't take charge cos he doesn't want ppl thinking about his past <br /><br />2 cents


created: 2002-04-27 22:44:57
subject: <b>Interesting, BUT...</b>
body:
While this theory does bear consideration, there are some important points that need to be made. By points from the proof:<br />3. It is possible that Lan's comment hints at a previous    acquaintance, but it seems more likely that it was just a general statement that had to do with the strangeness of a shepherd's possession of such a rare sword. Lan would have known from seeing the sword that Tam had to have been a master swordsman at some time in the past.<br />4. What about Lan's and Tam's ages?? We know that Lan is at least fifty years old, while Tam is at the most the same age, if not younger. It seems likelier that Lan taught the technique to Tam (where could Tam have learned it that the Warders didn't know about, anyway?) than Lan learned it from Tam. In addition, it is mentioned several times that Lan learned how to fight from the Malkieri warriors that brought him out of his native country before it was overrun by Trollocs. Lan's learning of the technique from the last surviving warriors of the extinct Malkieri army would also explain why no one else knows about the it - the knowledge was lost when Malkier was destroyed.<br />5. Also, we know for a fact that Lan is not stupid. The only reason I can see for Lan to have given no indication that he knew Tam while Rand was present is that Lan knew that Rand didn't know his father's history and had decided to keep silent. Then why would Lan slip up later and call Tam al'Thor by his first name?<br />6. The facts of the Aiel War, though hazy to the people of the Two Rivers, would have been well known to those who were as active in world politics as Aes Sedai. It would have been fairly easy for Moiraine to use sources of intelligence other than Lan to find out the identity of such a high-ranking Illian commander of that time. After all, she knew about the heron-mark blade, too, and was probably very interested in how Tam acquired it. It would not be a stretch of the imagination to assume that she would have done some investigation of Tam's background.<br />7. There were many battles during the Aiel War, and not all of them could have happened without any overlapping. There is nothing to indicate that Lan and Tam fought in the same &quot;hot spots&quot; in battle, or even in the same battles!<br />8. Lan could also have thought the coat was appropriate because the herons on the collar matched the heron on Rand's blade. His amusement was probably because he recognized Rand's distaste for the clothing and also knew that Rand's change of wardrobe was because of Moiraine's meddling.<br />Extra:<br />Also, if Lan and Tam were knew each other so well, wouldn't Lan have thought Tam's suddenly having a baby without anything said before a little strange? Moiraine and Lan searched for the Dragon Reborn for close to twenty years before finally locating Rand. When Moiraine first met Lan and described the circumstances of the Dragon Reborn's birth, why wouldn't Lan have made the connection (knowing as he would have his friend's location at that time), if not then, then not too long after?<br /> Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Whitecloak War AFTER the Aiel War? In that case, Tam would have already gone back to the Two Rivers and so would not have had any role in the fighting.


created: 2002-05-06 01:43:18
subject: <b>Sounds good except</b>
body:
In New Spring Lan uses ko'di (flame and void) like he's used it for a long time.  More likely is that Lan taught it to Tam.  Most likely they both learned it from different places.  I do like the idea that they knew each other from the War.  I think the only time Lan sees Tam is when he's unconsious after being healed.  And we all know Lan isn't a very talkative guy and no way would he say anything like that to Rand without checking with Tam and maybe Moiraine first, especially after just meeting Rand and knowing a bit more of the journey they must undertake.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Member of the WoT-Jedi Council <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My First Duty is to the Truth<br />I am Jack's complete lack of Surprise</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 22:48:56
subject: <b>Not Quite Sure About the Flame-Void Part...</b>
body:
If either taught the other, it'd be Lan teaching Tam. But I seriously doubt that either taught the other about the flame and the void. That's just my opinion, of course, but... my opinion is the best opinion there is. HA!<br /><br />The rest of the theory was good. Tam and Lan could very well have met before... the two father figures in Rand's life, replacements for the father Rand never knew. Both are blademasters, and both fought in the Aiel War. It makes sense, really. Good job, aside from that whole one-teaching-the-other thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 01:25:09
subject: <b>Yeah, I'll admit the whole one-teaching-the-other thing was...</b>
body:
... a bit out there, but I just don't see how Tam could have learned it from any soldiers in Illian, so we're left with Lan &amp; Bukama (who were still alive). I also don't see Tam learning that technique and immediatley using it after learning it. A Blademaster would stick with what was comfortable for him, especially when Fighting Aiel. That is why I said they could have learned from one another, or a third party. If it WAS just the two of them, I would say that Lan taught it to Tam since he's known it for so long. Sorry, it was an oversight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Some facts: <br />-The Whitecloak War was before the Aiel War. Tam had the Power-wrought sword before the AW. <br />-Lan could not have known of Tam finding Rand; after the war, they headed in opposite directions. Tam southwest, Lan north. Tam found him AFTER deserting the army.<br />-... that's about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 20:15:51
subject: <b>Just a small point</b>
body:
We are told that Lan learnt the sword from birth and grew up with it, and he is a diadem battle lord and all that.....dont you think that he may already have been a bladesmaster before the Aiel War? And do you think that any blademaster, let alone our Lan, would actually listen to another man telling him how to better his performance. Its possible that this did happen however.<br /><br />Your points are generally all good though. Good work.<br /><br />Oh and it seems to me that while most of the good characters are not together at the same time, they do eventually cross paths at some point, and I cant see Tam not being there with Rand either before/during the Last Battle. Thus I think that we will see Tam and Lan together. But first, Isam has to go.... I LOOK FORWARD TO THAT FIGHT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 15:48:41
subject: <b>creator Will Jiang, god of the world</b>
body:
this is not making any sense......<br />Try to tell it again without <br />UNCLEAR, NOT CONVINCING EVIDENCE<br />!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Will The Great<br />Lord of Eternity--&gt;POWER!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Worship me and you will recieve great blessing, refuse and face my wraith!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-03 17:27:12
subject: <b>Lan knows OF tam</b>
body:
It's more likely that Lan knew of a commander of the Illianer Companions named Al'Thor, and was able to deduce that Tam was probably that person.


created: 2002-10-02 16:54:35
subject: <b>not unbreakable</b>
body:
i have seen a couple of points bade about how the &quot;unbreakable&quot; swords are not completely unbreakable. well to put it to rest, they arent unbreakables, i dont have the books so bear with me. the swords were made by the one power by forging them so strong that they would never dull or break in CONVENTIONAL means, they were so strong that the aes sedai had to put the herons on them because the blademaster couldnt mark them. in otherwords, they are pretty much unbreakable, wile fighting normally, but when you get in a fight like rand and ishy and all that power is being foced onto that blade dont ya think it'd break? and it didnt exactly break, it melted, about a foot from the handle if i am right. just a little bit for ya all to chew on.<br /><br />What, sex?, Whats so bad about hearing your old dad talk about sex...? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />~Grampa Simpson<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Heh Heh, Silly Lisa, vampires are make believe, like elves, gremlins, and eskimoes.<br />~Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-22 23:16:27
subject: <b>To sum up</b>
body:
The sword wasn't broken, it was melted.  The Aligning the Matrix thing just re-arranges the molecules of the metal, which would only make the melting point higher, if anything, it wouldn't prevent it from being melted.<br /><br />And another thing.  Not to offend anyone, but the two coppers thing...he was in no way referring to paying 2 coppers for the sword.  He was talking about how the sword is worthless, and 'violence isn't the answer.'<br /><br />Plus, neither one could have taught the other the Flame and the Void or whatever you want to call it.  Firstly, they call it different things, secondly, by the time they would have met, they both would have had to be pretty proficient with the sword, and implementing a new method of fighting would be hard when fighting against Aiel. Lastly, Lan was playin around with swords and stuff when he was like 3, I'm willin to bet that when lil' Tam was playin around in the 2R, he didn't use a sword, most likely a bow and quarterstaff...but I digress.<br /><br />I heard a stray comment in there about Tam being Malkieri, and being one of those 5 remaining body guards.  I hope everyone just dismissed this out-of-hand, but I dont like to miss the chance to enlighten someone.  This is impossible  because of 2 main things: Tam grew up in the Two Rivers and Tam and Lan are roughly the same age.<br /><br />This wraps up my little rant.  Hope I helped in some menial way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 17:32:05
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
If Lan knew Tam, it's unlikely Moiraine would have been spending 20 years looking for the Dragon Reborn. Maybe that's why they were finally in the Two Rivers, though.<br /><br />&quot;Oh! I just remembered! An old war buddy of mine from the Two Rivers found an Aiel kid on the slopes of Dragonmount. That's what you're looking for, right?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 13:32:27
subject: <b>Others know about the Flame/void</b>
body:
In TGH Lanfear/Selena tells Rand she has heard about the Flame and Void, others called it the oneness, so it may be that Lan learned from some1 else.  <br /><br />the hunter<br /><br />Gwydion Quatar<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Gwydion Quatar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />    Champion of Mankind<br />       Knight of Passion<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-30 17:15:00
subject: <b>&quot;The sword that could not be broken was shattererd...&quot;</b>
body:
At the very end of &quot;Blood Calls Blood&quot; chapter in tGH, Lan says to Rand, &quot;Well, the sword that could not be broken was shattered in the end, sheepherder, but it fought the Shadow to the last.&quot;<br /><br />I think that about sums it up about unbreakable swords breaking.


created: 2003-09-03 04:08:00
subject: <b>I haven't read all of the replies but...</b>
body:
The Heron-marked blades aren't as rare as was stated.  The Seanchan blademaster in Falme has one and Eamon Valda has one.  I'm sure there are others...


created: 2003-09-14 22:35:09
subject: <b>Have you read new spring????</b>
body:
I think you may be right about Tam and Lan knowing each other but i think it might have been Lan who Taught Tam the flame and the void because if you read New Spring the Flame and the Void is Ki'sin to Lan or the oneness wich leads me to believe that he was taught this by his five men. Also briars on his coat when Lan was amused is because when he went to Canin (i think thats the name) he put on a coat with briars for like remberence lost or sumthing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Catlynn Gaidin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Dudes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Hell hath no fury as a women scorned<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />There are only 2 things that are infinte, the universe and human stupidity and i'm not sure about the former-Albert Enstien<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-19 09:43:05
subject: <b>Ahem Ahem Ahem</b>
body:
Very very interesting Theory Green Gaidin.<br /><br />And I agree with you, Lan Knows Tam, or knows of him.<br /><br />Some points written in here I do not agree with.<br />Such as Tam learning F&amp;V to Lan.<br /><br />I believe that the flame and void aren't That rare.<br /><br />Every aes sedai knows it, and I can bet a sweet buck that they teach Gaidins the Flame and void in gaiding school, whatnot. <br />Maybe RJ just didn't mention it.<br /><br /><br />But yea.<br /><br />Lan knows of Tam.<br />And why wouldn't he, Tam was second in command in a war Lan fought in. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 19:48:06
subject: <b>to Richard Althor</b>
body:
Just wanted to say that it's pretty obvious Tam did not just buy the sword <br />and I really like the idea it could have been won defending the king of illian<br /><br />but like I was saying theres no way Tam bought the sword<br />1) No merchant is ever going to have a power wrought blade people tend to keep track of that sort of thing<br />2) If a merchant did have it he would know what it was and a farmer from the 2 rivers could never afford it even after becoming a hero in Illian<br />3) He paid entirely to much for it.......I would say watching a bunch of men you trained and have become close to die is more than enough to be considered to high a price.<br /><br /><br />As for the theory itself.........very nice I doubt that Tam taught Lan the f/v but I pretty much always assumed that Tam knows Lan and vice versa.<br /><br />I mean honestly look at the respect Lan showed Rand from the start,  He's essentially been Rands surrogate father from day one out of the 2 rivers.<br />Even now when Lan doesn't really know if Rands crazy or not and pretty much is scared spittless of Rand (I say that because of the caution he openly displays around Rand, which is more than I've seen towards anyone else in the series)he still treats him like a son. you know what I mean all those little pieces of &quot;Wisdom&quot; that lan gives to Rand. Not once in the series does Lan do this for ANYONE else.<br />This to me speaks of a deeper seeded respect than &quot;Oh youre the Dragon Reborn and that means I should help you&quot;<br /><br />that sort of thing just doesn't sound like Al'Lan Mandragoran or whatever the hell his full name is<br /><br />Peace


created: 2004-05-06 17:29:48
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
Old theory new comment?<br />I beleive Lan taught Tam the flame and the void. Who is more likely to have had it first. The heir to the borderland throne of malkerie or a farmer looking for adventure? It do make more sense for Lan to teach Tam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-15 21:09:10
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Moiraine says right after explaing tam and his history that she wished she would have known that sooner, you din't think that Lan would have mentioned anything or that she would have asked them<br />


created: 2004-09-13 11:46:32
subject: <b>Maybe we'll know...</b>
body:
I really liked ur theory! i would love to know if they really know eachother... Have u heard that one RJ's prequels is going to be about Tam and his adventures befor Rand was born? maybe we'll know then... anyway, i do not think lan learnt the oneness from Tam. maybe its the other way around. some malkieri thing, maybe?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 23:44:36
subject: <b>Power Made Weapons</b>
body:
Okay This is for all the wot readers.<br /><br />First Blademasters -&gt; Are the stuff of Legends ahnd sought for there skills. It is likely that Tam was Renound for his skills but Durning the heat of war never turely centered out for his skills , thus never getting the widely known reputation of a bladesmaster. Secondly Lan at the Time was a prince and very busy leading armies. doubtful he and tam new one another. <br /><br />Third and Final point . As far as power made weapons. there are many power made weapons that were very durable.<br />there was some reference to heartstone sword (they would have been unbreakable) but others could have been made that  would last a longtime but up against the power of Ishy would melt like butter.<br /><br />Not every Power made weapon is timeless. If that were the cass then I think we would have seen at least one  Shockrin lance.


created: 2006-06-04 12:49:51
subject: <b>Just a Thought</b>
body:
you would think that some of the older companions and the Council of Nine might of remembered an al'Thor leadin the companions back in the day and you would think the same for the White Cloaks considering how many battles they loss (near nil and aleast never twice to the same man...) but no one seem to get this...


created: 2006-06-16 20:47:08
subject: <b>RE: Just a Thought</b>
body:
If you closely read the books, I believe it is in the eighth book that is is mentioned very briefly that Rand was partly given the crown because they knew of his father. A kind of side reason... they had fine examples of his character from his charity, however they also had the knowledge (partially) of his lineage.<br />Also, just like to say GG I REALLY love this theory. I kind of think it went like this though. <br />One day, Illian is in control of the army during tha Aiel war. (Recall, this is how it works. Lan stated &quot;Niall has the army today&quot;. And the went on to explain a rotation.) However, the king would put the army into command of top general. But today he is sick, so command goes to Tam, his second. Tam designs strategy, etc, etc. However Lan disagrees with the plan, and being Lan is not afraid to say it. Also, he is of a royal line, so Tam meets with him and treats him with all respect. Still a disagreement, but they are civil to one another and get along kind of. Anyway, Tam takes Lan's ideas under &quot;advisement&quot; and either listens to advice or doesn't. Does not matter. Next battle in day, either a win or a loss... I'm thinking a win as it might explain Lan's respect for Tam. This can explain why Tam does not recognize Lan, but Lan does Tam. You won't recognize someone you meet once, unless he commanded you and you met him. I don't buy the whole thing about teaching, read the books again and you will see the F/V and ko'di or the exact same thing. As is the oneness. In fact &quot;ko'di&quot; is the old toungue for Oneness. Despite this, the names are different. Tam has already reached second to Illian's best general, which insists he was already blademaster level. Also, strategy wise I liken him to a Great Captain (Bryne, Niall, Ituralde, etc) It is the only explanation that an outsider, commoner could reach such a high rank... one of the best of the best at strategy. I like the idea of how he came to possess his power-wraught blade. He saved the King and recieved it. If you read KoD, Mattin seems to be a decent guy and would be willing to award a man in such a way. It is also possible that he obtained it in a duel. Remember, that may be how he earned the heron. By defeating a B/M in a fair duel, you obtain that rank and his blade. The idea that a merchant would sell ANY sword, let alone a heron mark one... not to mention power-wraught for two coppers is ludicrous. I consider this an outright deflection on Tam's part... he wouldn't want to lie to Rand, so he deflected his question. No one argue... two COPPERS would not pay for the cost of the MATERIALS for a sword, let alone the crafting of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-23 20:18:14
subject: <b>Likely true, but not likely closely</b>
body:
I say that it is likely that they knew each other, or at least knew of each other during the Aeil war. The reason I say that is because there are very few blade masters in the world, and due to their ages (very similar, wiht Lan probably being just a little younger) they both probably became blade masters either just before or during the Aeil war. There are only 2 ways to be named a blademaster. 1. By fighting and defeating a blademaster. Since the known world was engaged in fighting the Aeil, that isn't likely. And 2. by being named a blademaster after a skill trial by a panel of blademasters. I think the required number is 6 or more. With so few blademasters around, and most of them engaged in fighting the Aeil, it is probable that one or the other sat in on the panel for the other to be named a blademaster. At the VERY least they would have heard of each other since they were both considered very young to be named as blademasters.<br /><br />It is also possible that the same men that trained Lan helped train Tam. Since Lan joined in the Aeil war, it is likely that they did too, and being older and more knowledgable, the best position for them in the armies were either advisors or trainers. <br /><br />Just my 2 cents worth.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-03 09:30:15
subject: <b>Rand did not Sheath the Sword at Falme!</b>
body:
I don't know why people keep saying this, but Rand did NOT sheath the sword at Falme!  If he did, he would have died.<br /><br />Rand remembered Lan's comments right before doing his kill-Ishamael-while-taking-a-mortal-wound routine, but when it actually came down to it he merely gave Ba'alzamon a chance to kill him such that he'd surely be able to kill Ba'alzamon if he took the chance.<br /><br />Ba'alzamon's blow was not lethal.  Rand did not sheath the sword, for that requires sheathing it in your own body.  The sword was sheated in Ishamael's body.  So if Rand finally does Sheath the Sword, he may be able to take out the Dark One.  Nice idea.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 10:47:25
subject: <b>Dark One in the flesh...</b>
body:
I thought the Naeblis was (unknowingly) being groomed for the honour of providing a body for the DO. But then, the DO would love Rand to be Naeblis!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 11:52:50
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I looked at the incident at Falme as sheathing the sword.  Sure, he didn't die, but he did accept a very serious wound to get the job done.  I wasn't recalling that the sheathing the sword required the person to actually die...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/1.gif" /><br />wotmania<br />Creator of wotmania<br />Making Admins Dance for Over a Decade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 14:53:32
subject: <b>Sheathing the sword</b>
body:
Rand didn't die at Falme, but I think he EXPECTED to.  He felt he was sheathing the sword when he did it, so I think  it applies to this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 20:03:00
subject: <b>What about Ingtar?...</b>
body:
...I'd gotten the impression that Ingtar putting himself into danger to buy Rand the time to get out of Falme (and thus comitting suicide for all intents and purposes) was a form of sheathing the sword. He died because there was no other way for everyone to win.<br /><br />   I don't necessarily think this thoery wrong mind you. Just that sheathing the sword seems to have already present in the series is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 22:22:53
subject: <b>The blade not sheathed yet</b>
body:
I agree that Rand has yet to sheath the blade. Althought he did sacrifice himself and took a bad wound to get the job done, that is not sheathing the blade as Lan explained it.  He was pertaining to one sheathing his own sword in his own body to get what needed to be done done.


created: 2001-08-04 11:06:12
subject: <b>Why In the name of.....</b>
body:
Why would the Dark One want to enter Rands body?, when the seals fail and give away, he will be able to touch and enter the world as himself, a supernatural all powerful, godlike entity, with power and knowledge beyond comprehension, what you're saying is that he would give that up to be a mere mortal!, sorry but I find that hard to believe.


created: 2001-08-04 13:14:16
subject: <b>Good point forge but............</b>
body:
That is a good, and valid point.  But if that were true, then The DO would have absolutely no use for Rand.  Why would he put up with some kid who's more trouble than he's worth, if he didn't need him for somthing.  Maybe the DO needs a mortal body to enter the world in the first place, and cannot do so without one.  And Rand's body would be the best for him to use.  I think that's the reason he says he'll take rand alive or dead, because either way, he'll have the body.  It also explains &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Reign&quot;.  The more powerful Rand gets, the better for the DO.


created: 2001-08-06 10:04:22
subject: <b>sheathing the sword is Hara-Kiri</b>
body:
a form of suicide used by samura&#239;s who had done evil/bad/wasteful deeds, and to die. It was an unhonorable death, but one that allowed the samurai to make up for what he had done. The noble death was Seppuku, when your best friend severed your head... (I love samura&#239;s...)<br /><br />Just to say, I think Rans might sheath the sword after he does something bad... allowing the DO to enter his body would cetainly qualify!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 10:43:07
subject: <b>What Lan said</b>
body:
I believe he said that when you sheath the sword you lower your guard so that you may give your opponent a lethal blow but in the same time open yourself for an counterblow from your foe that you won&#180;t be able to block. <br /><br />Of course he didn&#180;t say it in those words but the meaning of it is still the same.<br /><br />/Marcus


created: 2001-08-07 00:26:35
subject: <b>HewwwWo!</b>
body:
Guys,<br />Great to see your posts! This will be my initial one. I just want to throw in my comment that its apparent that Rand has sheathed the sword. He was only saved by Lanfear's healing, and so technically, he did die. Lan does not mention the form, which is what Sheathing the Sword is, in any other book besides TGH. Now the theory about Rand letting the DO to enter his body to kill him sounds cool and unique, but does not follow through with the theology behind the series about all things being a circle and never ending. Thats why their is a mention somewhere in the series about the Last Battle not really being the LAST battle. <br /><br />Elyas2k1<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-07 05:34:33
subject: <b>Have to agree</b>
body:
I have to agree with that, It makes sense. Sooooo, maybe Rand sheaths the blade to weaken the DO in order to trap him back in the bore with the help of various companions (the creator knows he has plenty ^_^)  I just think there has to be somthing to give the light an edge.  Rand has friends, but he doesn't have the 100 companions that LT did.  Maybe it will be the aes sedai, but i doubt it.  If the DO actually escapes the bore completley without taking a host, then nothing will be able to stop him.  The creator couldn't and Rand is a far cry from being the Creator........or is he &gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  kidding.


created: 2001-08-07 17:09:58
subject: <b>My 2 Cents...</b>
body:
Since the only book where Lan discusses Sheathing the Sword is in book 2, isn't it reasonable to assume that Robert Jordan would have brought it up a few times in the last seven books if it was going to be a major factor in TG?  I don't think that the physical mechanics are going to matter as much as the lesson that Lan instilled in him.<br /><br />Also, if you want to know the spirit of what Lan says, look no further than the scene at Vandene and Adeleas' farm.  When Lan and the other Warder run in the room and see the Draghkar, both scream &quot;embrace death&quot; and go straight for its heart, leaving themselves totally defenseless.  While this is not the physical mechanics of &quot;Sheathing the Sword&quot;, it certainly is in the spirit/theme of the maneuver.  And we all know that Robert Jordan loves to drop subtle hints and variations/clues on those hints.<br /><br />Therefore, when Rand accepts Ba'alzamon's blow in order to get in his own fatal strike, he is sheathing the sword.  Furthermore, when Ingtar stays behind and accepts death to protect Mat and the others, he is also sheathing the sword.  I think that Lan's explanation, while being specific, is better applied as an attitude than a state of mind.  If you haven't noticed, &quot;sheathing the sword&quot; is the theme of the entire novel: it is a tale of self sacrifice for the good of others.  <br /><br />Think about it: Rand attempts to drive his own friends away because he might hurt them.  Perrin and Rand drop everything to save Mat's life.  Mat blows the Horn to save his friends.  (I'm not going to list them all, we wotmaniacs are a bright bunch...)<br /><br />So, what I'm saying, don't limit yourself to Lan's physical description when the point of &quot;Sheathing the Sword&quot; is a state of mind, an act of self sacrifice.


created: 2001-08-07 17:11:50
subject: <b>End Of Days</b>
body:
Just Wondering if you watched Arnold in End of Days, before you came up with this theory. It could be possible but I doubt it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 21:54:14
subject: <b>sheathing the sword</b>
body:
i thought that in tGh Lan said something like &quot;One day you might find it best to sheath the sword in your own body&quot; or something like that...and Rand wondered why he would ever do something like that.<br />


created: 2001-08-10 10:12:38
subject: <b>Sheathing the Sword</b>
body:
is NOT Seppuku.  The only sword used in that ceremony is the sword an acquaintance uses to cut off your head.  Seppuku was used to return honor to one's family or clan, not to achieve a particular goal at all costs.  Lan's explanation only stated you would allow the sword to be sheathed in your own body.  Borderlanders are all familiar with it.  I don't see how falling on your own sword would gain you anything particularly a goal you had to reach at all costs.  Ingtar Sheathed the Sword (FOUGHT with no hope of survival, he didn't fall on his own sword) to allow Rand and Co. to get away.  Rand did Sheathe the Sword in his fight with Ba'alzamon.  I would think we could take his word for it....


created: 2001-08-10 16:02:59
subject: <b>Hey...what if...</b>
body:
You know how Ishamael started thinking he was the Dark One?<br /><br />Maybe he WAS the Dark One!  That's why he didn't die.  Now he's Moridin.  But he can't be totally free until his self jumps to Rand.<br /><br />In that case that's why Moridin helps Rand - he wants him to survive to the last battle so that the DO can possess him.<br /><br />Definitely an original theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 05:14:23
subject: <b>mmm...I don't know</b>
body:
I thought Rand in battle over Falme did not &quot;Sheath the sword&quot; but instead took a stance only to be used in practise which left his side open, and gave him a killing blow but he had to take an injure to do it..... maybe I'm wrong???


created: 2001-11-22 10:31:58
subject: <b>Sheathing is sheathing...</b>
body:
I'm not going to quote anyone from the books or anywhere else, but sheathing the sword is just that...sheathing the sword.  Lan meant that there may come a time when Rand or anyone else may need to take their own sword, and run themselves through.  It hasn't been harped done since it's initial mentioning because there's nothing to harp on...people don't talk about killing themselves all the time.  It was mentioned...done.  Now, how does this tie into a Last Battle theory?  Rand will take his own sword and at the very least injure himself with it.  This will be the spilling of the blood on the rocks and all that.  This will symbolize the ultimate human sacrifice...a mortal dying (or bleeding) so other mortals can live.  The Creator cannot perform this feat.  Therefore, he has his representative on earth do it for him (insert Jesus analogy here).  Maybe this would allow the Creator to intervene and stop the Dark One (I don't really believe that, though).  There is no way Rand can defeat the Dark One with the One Power.  The Forsaken can't channel in his presence, so why should Rand be able to?  And if he's free, the Dark One would be even more powerful and could easily defeat Rand.  And with all this new True Source stuff going on, it makes it more unlikely that Rand can beat him with any kind of Power.  Rand has always been a believer in carrying a sword with him, even though he can channel.  This will likely become significant when the Power is impossible to use.  So, he has steal.  He'll use it to spill his blood.  The author has stated that he's had the last scene of the Last Battle in his head since day one of the Wheel of Time.  So, it's unlikely that any details that have unfolded over the years in the books will come into play.  The author has also been very careful not to allow the One Power to dominate all plot lines and events.  It still comes down to a sword fight or a mortal army, most of the time.  Since I'm starting to repeat myself, I'll sum it up:  Rand will sheathe his sword into his own body at the Last Battle, thus spilling his blood on the rocks and saving humankind.  Other factors will come into play but this, I believe, is the central theme of the Last Battle.


created: 2002-01-14 08:24:33
subject: <b>You are all wrong.......</b>
body:
When Rand was talking with Lan during practice and Lan mentioned &quot;sheathing the sword&quot; Lan WAS talking about suicide...... later Rand was practicing with Ingtar and he was doing a form that helps balance but is NEVER to be used in actual battle, because it leaves you wide open,  it was this balance form that Rand used against Ishamael..... so he HAS NOT &quot;sheathed the sword&quot; yet.........  this is a very plausible theory<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-22 16:22:45
subject: <b>sheathing the sword</b>
body:
i don't know about all of this theory, but i definately agree that Rand will most likely sheathe the sword at the last battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Enin Bar'nast<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 08:37:25
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
Rand will NOT sheathe his sword at the last battle. And the theory about the DO taking over Rand is total rubbish...why would he do it? A supernatural enigma like himself(is it ever mentioned that the DO is really a he...?) will not need a mere mortal to merge with. The merging aura is Rand merging with Lews Therin, with Rand being the victor and thereby in control. When RJ says 1/3 of the theories is totally BS, I would think he refers to theories like these...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 05:59:54
subject: <b>Sheathing the Sword</b>
body:
I just logged on to post pretty much the same theory, but someone got there first (damn). Anyway, I agree, and the stuff about the DO needing a human body makes sense, cos even without the seals, he won't be able to touch the world fully, cos I don't think he could in the War of Power.<br />   oh, also, the Hara Kiri/Seppuku thing. Hara Kiri is suicide by disembowelling yourself, not running yourself through with a sword. Seppuku is merely a more polite wourd for the same thing. Seppuku/Hara Kiri was ammended at some point to allow a friend to behead you at the moment of worst pain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 16:00:59
subject: <b>DO DOESNT need a body, period.</b>
body:
If the DO couldn't affect the world in the war of power, how did the society go from a peaceful civilization that all but FORGOT the meaning of the word WAR let alone how to wage it, or how to fight, to a world on the brink of collapse commiting genocide, killing and waging the nastiest of war techniques against eachother, how did the chosen arrive en masse before the war?    How did blight form? How did the sky darken when the Sharom fell?  HOW did the DO taint saidin? <br /><br />The DO is NOT a traditional being in the sense it has a beginning and an end, the DO is on the same level as the creator, since IT was there before the Creator made all of creation!  Its manefestation in the pattern isn't based on the posession of a body, it is in the wheel itself, as it imbues the wheel with itself things follow the will of the DO.  <br /><br /><br />Sheathing the Sword:  Lan describes Sheathing the Sword as a very specific form, hence the caps, its a title.  Rand did Sheathe the Sword when he fought The heart of the dark, he even says so, how else to you think he got that wound in his side?  Tam's blade was only sticking up from it when Min found him, if the power hadnt cauterized the wound as it was made he WOULD have died.  The darkness in the wound is from either the backlash of the power/Baalzamon's connection to the DO or the taint, since they describe the OP flowing through the blade. I don't know if Rand will do it again at TG/LB but i think he has established that he wouldn't hesitate to.  Now this isnt to say that the mindset of putting anothers life ahead of yours isn't applicable, but there is an important distinction to be made here, there is a form called Sheathing the Sword, and there is the mindset of selfless-ness, they are different but similar.<br /><br />Sidenote:  you use a wakazashi when commiting seppuku, and if you perfomm the rite/act properly and embrace the pain without fear then you can be beheaded regaining some of the honor you lost. If you flinched or backed down then you lost even more honor and were basically looked upon as dirt.  Consider it the ultimate form of settling oh.<br />


created: 2002-11-25 12:54:15
subject: <b>Why....</b>
body:
Not to discredit any of the theory or posts about it (I find it interesting); but I just can't understand the whole Dark One taking over Rand's body thing. As I see it, IF the DO did take the body for whatever reason...WHY would he allow the body to destroy itself? If the DO gets in there, would he not then have complete control over the body?? I would think that the Dark One has sat down and thought this through; he wouldn't even chance entering someones body and not be in control, especially if the body's owner opposed him. I don't think that if this takes place Rand will have any chance of Sheathing anything anywhere!


created: 2003-05-04 18:37:45
subject: <b>If you say so...</b>
body:
So if we're all assuming that the DO needs a body to actually walk among mortals...then, er, why doesn't the Creator just snatch up Rand's body before him?  I mean, if the DO can, the Creator can.  Anyway, as much as I like the theory, I always thought Moridin (as said before) would be used as a host if need be?  Hey, if the Last Battle is going to be A DO-in-Moridin's-body vs. Creator-in-Rand's-body, then all I can say is BRING IT ON! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 13:45:45
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
only one problem here. rj doesnt really rabit on about sheathing the sword. it hasnt been mentioned in 8 books and it was only specifically 3 times in the books (i think). sheathing the swords point was to allow rand to defeat ishmael (rand effectively used himself as bait in a trap)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 12:49:57
subject: <b>Siuan was not the head of the Blue Ajah</b>
body:
If your theory is correct, Siuan would be the head of the Blue Ajah before becoming Amyrlin.  Since we never heard this from her point of view EVER, I think it highly unlikely.<br /><br />The two positions are separate; they have to be.  No other Ajah requires its head to maintain its eyes-and-ears as well, and the Blues have a LARGER network.<br /><br />Thus, Aeldene is not the head of the Ajah, only the Blue Ajah equivalent to Sebban Balwer.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 15:52:37
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
But Id agree wih you on Carlinya, Morvin and Beonin being the heads of their Ajahs. I would put Anaiya as head of the blue Ajah. You say that she doesnt have that kind of power but then why would that group be described as being the real power in Salidar? I say that each is the head of their respective Ajahs wth the exception of Sheriam, who previously was Mistress of Novices and a very close friend of Suian. That and her strength in the power is why she has power and is not head of an Ajah. <br /><br />That still leaves the Yellow Ajah. We know that the yellow leader is in the Tower, but I would put Nisao or Dagdara as head of the Yellows in Salidar. I seem to remember that Nisao was very important among the Yellows, but also it says that Dagdara knew twice as much about Healing as the other sisters in Salidar. Neither is a Sitter so it would be believable that one of them heads the Yellows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 03:11:53
subject: <b>A few other points</b>
body:
I know this is a not evry important and possibly untrue theory, but I thought it was worth sending in. I would like to stop and give credir here to someone most of you will not remember, Birdhead, who frequented the MB until a month or so ago. It was her idea originally, but she can't come for I while, so I sent it in. <br />If Nisao is the head of the Yellows, then why does Romanda go her own way so often? If she is, she(Nisao) is oath-sworn to obey Egwene, so couldn't Egwene get her to rein in Romanda a little, and Anaiya Lelaine? I know Romanda and Lelaine are well respected, but they might obey their Ajah heads. Or maybe Egwene doesn't know who the Ajah heads are, and this will be revealed in the next book and is a part of the plotline.....or maybe not. If it was, that's be one puzzle as to what's in Book 10 sorted. Ah, I'm just dreaming. But who knows? Aeldene may be the head, she may not be. Time - or maybe RAFO - might tell. We hope. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 04:13:42
subject: <b>Ajah heads</b>
body:
The likely heads of the Yellow and Blue Ajahs are Romanda and Lelaine, respectively. Even if they don't hold those positions formally, they have the authority of them.<br /><br />The likely head of the White Ajah is the Sitter Aledrin. Aledrin is the youngest White Sitter, and authority in the Hall goes by age; yet Aledrin, when standing to declare war on Elaida, pulls the older Berana to vote with her. Since she doesn't have authority by age over Berana, she must have some other form of authority. Most likely, that of Ajah head.


created: 2001-08-06 05:32:13
subject: <b>I think that neither Aeldene nor Lelaine heads the blue ajah</b>
body:
Granted, Lelaine is the strongest blue in Salidar and together with Romanda she quashed Sheriam's faction's influence in the hall but if she was head of the blue ajah then why don't Sheriam and Anaiya give up their up their goals in favour of Lelaine's. Aeldene is the head of the blue's network but she does not have any influence over Sheriam, Anaiya or Lelaine that we have seen so far. She has tried to get the amyrilin's network out of Siuan but Siuan has resisted her so far. As regards Lelaine, she did not support Egwene's declaration of war against Elaida until Moria attacked her and even then all she warned Moria with was a talk of proper protocol. I believe Moria made a mistake in attacking a sister who is older and stronger than her but that is it. Also Siuan would have told Egwene if either Lelaine or Aeldene leads the blue ajah, she has already proven by her past actions with Moiraine, that her main loyalty is to seeing the Dark One defeated and not to the blue ajah or to Aes Sedai in general. The true head of the blue ajah remains to be seen.


created: 2001-08-07 00:12:14
subject: <b>two words</b>
body:
WHO CARES???<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 16:05:56
subject: <b>DaBuilder, either you've had a lapse of temporary insanity...</b>
body:
or, in fact, you truly ARE an utter moron.<br /><br />This is a theory post.  This is a theory on the theory post.  The theory states what people think is going to happen.<br /><br />Now, I personally don't much care about this particular topic.  However, one theory poster and 5 posters above you have already expressed an interest in the subject.  THEY care.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 16:43:21
subject: <b>Just a thought on this...</b>
body:
...First off I do recall at least one other theory on this somewhere. It also mentioned the fact that if Taim was the killer that disqualifies him from being Demandred since he was unsure of whether Asmo is alive.<br /><br />   I disagree with this theory, but not on the lack of being an obvious candidate. By now I think it's become crystal that despite whatever Jordan may have thought he did not in fact make it very obvious as to who killed Asmodean.<br /><br />   My reason for not agreeing is that there was no indication before the end of FOH that Asmodean had any idea who Taim was or what he looked like. This is the same reason why I disqualify Slayer as the killer. We may have found out in WH that Slayer knows the Forsaken (or at least some of them), but in FOH we had nothing to tell us that he was anything other than a high ranking DF.<br /><br />   All in all even if I disagree with it I still find it to be a good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 16:56:26
subject: <b>Borderline</b>
body:
Although i don't agree with this theory, i think it is a very good one. I personally think graendal did it, since she was mentioned by moggy, and nothing disproves her. The only thing that makes me side with graendal is i feel it is more obvious, since taim hadn't even shown up in FoH, even though it was just mentioned. BUt i'll still vote yes, just because its new to me, and theres nothing against it


created: 2001-08-08 18:44:56
subject: <b>Query...</b>
body:
I just have a question.  Balefire burns threads out of the pattern.  Therefore, erasing actions of a person, thing, animal, whatever.  This is a given.  But, if a person was dead, and then balefired, what would the effect be?  Hmmmm.....  Also, there are easier and less dangerous ways to dispose of a body with the OP, so I don't know how i feel about that aspect ot the theory.  aaight...OUT


created: 2001-08-08 23:03:44
subject: <b>Moridin?</b>
body:
I'm sure this has been brought up a zillion times, and is blindingly obvious, but can anyone enlighten me as to why Moridin wasn't the culprit?<br /><br />He'd inspire fear, he'd be known by Asmodean (actually, would he?), and he's the baddest bad guy, so he'd have motive, and I would've thought he'd be an obvious subject.<br /><br />But was he not introduced to us at that stage?<br /><br />Sorry, I don't have my books... <br /><br />Just tell me I'm wrong and I'll be satisfied...


created: 2001-08-09 12:17:48
subject: <b>He hadn't been introduced yet.</b>
body:
1) He fails the obvious test.  (Jordan said that &quot;death&quot; in &quot;death took him&quot; does <i>not</i> refer to Moridin.)<br /><br />2) More specifically, he fails the 5 books test.  Moridin (as Moridin) didn't appear in the first five books, and Jordan said that's all we would need to figure out who the killer is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 16:28:25
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
I personally think Graendal killed Asmo.  However, I can add a little to this theory.  It has been noted that Taim looks like Demandred.  If Taim was the killer, Asmo may have mistaken Taim for Demandred.  Asmo only had a quick glance before he was dead, so this is a possibility.<br /><br />Also, whoever killed Asmo probably didn't use balefire.  There are other ways to kill a person and dispose of the body.  Besides, my understanding is that balefire would be a pretty noticeable weave.  Since the killer was going for secrecy, balefire doesn't seem like a very good choice to kill Asmo.<br /><br />Well, that's my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mslano<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 16:41:32
subject: <b>If Taim did it...</b>
body:
Well, if Taim isnt Demandred (Wich we know he is) Some1 must have learned him balefire. Even the forsaken hesitates using it. But they fear it too. Even some1 as weak as Moiranne could kill the forsaken with it. Then: would any of the forsaken dare to teach him that? Since Taim is so strong.<br /> I remeber Graendal said something like &quot;If you think I will teach them compoulsion, forget it! One of those girls wasnt jada jada jada. I WILL NOT RISK STRENGHT AND SKILL COMING TOGETHER IN HER.&quot; She said it to Sammael I think, when meeting with the wise ones. Its unlikely some of the other forsaken would teach Taim such a weapon.<br /> So if Taim killed Asmo, I dont think balefire was used<br />


created: 2001-08-10 15:41:11
subject: <b>something that bug me</b>
body:
Something that has always bugged me about Asmodeans death, is the fact that there is ZERO reaction from Rand. Asmodean died at the end of book 5, and the only thing that happens after is Demandred talking to the DO. Asmo isnt even mentioned in the nect 2 books at least by any1 other than the surviving forsaken. THE KILLER IS RAND. He doesnt even wonder where Asmo went, Asmo would certanly have recognized him, and maybe he came across Rand and LTT took over and killed him?


created: 2001-08-10 16:08:57
subject: <b>Female Balefire</b>
body:
The description of Asmodean's death matches female balefire, strongly suggesting that a female channeller did it.  It does not match or even suggest male balefire.<br /><br />Female balefire - &quot;word hung in the air for a few seconds after his body disappeared...&quot;<br />Male balefire - &quot;The colours of his body seemed to invert, so that black was white and red was green...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 20:15:04
subject: <b>For a Theory with so little support...</b>
body:
...this is remarkably well thought out.  Nice job. <br />(By the way, Rand as the killer does sound interesting.  As I recall, he really didn't trust Asmodean, and if he was content that Asmo had given him enough training, then the ex-Forsaken would be more risk than benefit.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 12:52:54
subject: <b>Rand</b>
body:
Rand never wonders where Asmo is, but in his thoughts sometimes he thinks about how Asmo ran away, and even thought Asmo was attacking him once, briefly, in Path of Daggers. Also, I gathered that Asmo died at about the same time Rand was talking to Bashere, as Asmo left the room before Bashere and Rand really got to talking. Besides, Rand had tons of opportunities to kill Asmo, why resort to the sneaking around like that? Although I do grant that perhaps Rand feared Lanfear flipping out if he killed Asmodean, and when she was gone, finished him off. I don't think he did, but who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 16:00:13
subject: <b>Graendel</b>
body:
One of my other problems with Graendel is that, while RJ may have perhaps thought she was obvious (if she did it), most people did not until after Fires of Heaven, when she seemed sure Asmo was dead and things like that. If I recall correctly, when the Wheel of Time FAQ was on Fires of Heaven (before the release of Lords of Chaos) they had a poll, which Lanfear was won. However, Graendel wasn't even a candidate. (I doubt Taim was either, I'm just saying). Unfortunately, a lot of people who argue that Graendel is obvious are using information from Lords of Chaos or later. Remember, as far as the obvious test goes, information after Fires of Heaven cannot be used, because the comment was that it should be obvious at the time of his death. So the only obvious thing about Grandel is Moggy happened to mentioned that Rand would find Graendel and Rahvin waiting. The Forsaken do lie though, Moggy could have been trying to make Nynaeve worried that Rand might not be able to handle two Forsaken. Or maybe Graendel backed out on Rahvin. It is possible, but I dunno, it never really struck me as obvious that she killed Asmodean. Not that Taim was really obvious either, but at least he was mentioned a mere 2-3 pages earlier.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 02:06:04
subject: <b>NOT Rand</b>
body:
The only chance of Asmodean fearing to see Rand at this point is if he was truly expecting and hoping that Rahvin killed Rand. Since Asmodean has been betrayed and emasculated by Lanfear, he is indeed afraid of the other Forsaken, so I think he would be much more afraid of Rahvin surviving the fight with Rand. <br /><br />No, if it was Rand that he encountered there, he wouldn't have been scared to death, he would have been relieved. He has a shadow of a memory that he should already be dead, and he isn't stupid so he might have guessed that Rand has balefired Rahvin hard enough to back up several minutes of time.<br /><br />It might be valid to think of Rand as having enough rage left over from the battle with Rahvin to blast Asmodean on sight, but then we wouldn't have his internal POV wondering where Asmodean ran off to.<br /><br />Taim doesn't make a direct appearance early enough to be considered a likely candidate with the clues that RJ has offered.<br /><br />Graendal remains the favorite. Asmodean would have been shocked to see her, would have been scared, and we know from Moghedien's comments that Graendal and Rahvin were at one point operating as a team. That gives her at least some reason to be skulking about the palace at Caemlyn. Still not strong enough to qualify as &quot;obvious&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 01:21:56
subject: <b>Graendel</b>
body:
That's exactly it, Tim. I think that by the current evidence, if it was anyone, it'd be Graendel. She isn't obvious enough to me to satisfy it, and yet, the only other person that could possibly strike me as obvious is Lanfear, and that doesn't make that much sense considering she supposedly died. Perhaps in Book 10 we'll finally find out. If it was Lanfear, the only reaso to keep it secret would be Cyndane, and now that we know Cyndane is Lanfear reborn, there's no longer a reason. Then again, by that logic, if it was Graendel, hwy keep it secret at all? I guess, to put it bluntly, if it was Graendel, then RJ just likes to f--- with us, and won't tell us for that reason. He must love everyone arguing over this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 03:15:28
subject: <b>maybe taim, balefire i no think so.</b>
body:
well i like the idea of taim killing Asmodean but i must say that it was probably someone else and who ever it was probably didnt use balefire. when i think of balefire i think of total, complete, obliteration. as in end of existance.  thats how balefire works right? now, i think of death as mearly a destruction of the body, wheras obliteration is something completely different.  so when in FoH it says &quot;...when death took him...&quot; i take that to mean that he was killed in conventional means(conventional as in ways not disrupting to the fabric of reality) thats just my opinion. feel free to shoot me down as neccessary.  i also half believe that padan fain, aka ordieth, killed asmodean. although there are obvious problems with that, i will still throw it out there:p i just dont picture greandel doing something along those lines..i dont think its her style. but i am horribly biased when it comes to character personalities in books so it doesnt carry much weight.<br /><br />well thats the two cents from the guy uve never heard of and will probably never hear from again..sighs of relief indeed<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-02 15:52:54
subject: <b>Hmmmm......</b>
body:
I seem to recall Asmo opening a cubbard, looking for &quot;refreshments&quot; when &quot;death took him&quot;.  How about Shadar Haran?  He zips in from a shadow, does the deed and is gone with the body before anyone knows what's up.  Or he takes Asmo back with him and makes a properly messy job of it.


created: 2001-09-09 16:28:59
subject: <b>Not Shadar Harin (s?)</b>
body:
i may be wrong but i dont think we met him until the prolouge of LoC....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 16:16:00
subject: <b>Just another 'whodunit' Theory</b>
body:
One step and he stopped,the blood draining from his face.<br />You ? No! The word still hung in the air when death took him.<br /><br />Proof :<br /><br />a) The 'you ?' indicates surprise. Asmodean was surprised to find that person overthere. It must have been a woman. A male channeler coming by gateway and channeling balefire (It must have been balefire from the 'No!'; Asmodean wouldn't have been afraid of anything but balefire, the Final Death) would have been sensed by Rand.<br /><br />b)Jordan himself says it was obvious. I don't think Mesaana, Semirhage and even Graendal are obvious. It must have been Lanfear. But was she alive when it happened ?<br />I think so, when Moghedien meets Moridin their already is another mindtrap and later we meet Cyndane. If Cyndane is Lanfear (and we all think so or know so) she was already back before Moggy was mindtrapped. And only Lanfear makes perfect sense. The surprise at Asmo's face especially


created: 2001-10-05 13:08:47
subject: <b>Lanfear? Cyndane? Questionable</b>
body:
The main problem with Lanfear is that if Cyndane is indeed Lanfear brought <br />back to life then how would Asmodean have known who she was. We have <br />no indication that he knew Lanfear was alive again or what she now looked <br />like. The killer was obviously somebody that Asmodean was able to recognize<br />in an instant, which I doubt he would have of Cyndane. <br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2001-12-06 23:38:03
subject: <b>If it was Cyndane...</b>
body:
...and I think it might have been, then she could easily have disguised herself to look like Lanfear, to make sure that Asmodean knew who was killing him. It's just as likely as Graendal. In any case, it clearly isn't as &quot;obvious&quot; as Jordan thinks it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 23:13:52
subject: <b>Asmodean's Killer is Graendal</b>
body:
It's &quot;obvious&quot; in that Moghedien says that Sammael and Graendal will be waiting for Rand.  Note the two servants, one male and one female, who haven't fled the palace during the Rand-Rahvin fight.  Asmodean passes by the area where these servants are, then is killed in a manner that seems to be female balefire, but recognizes his killer.  Therefore, it is &quot;obviously&quot; Graendal.<br /><br />Of course, if you don't believe me, you can just look up the chat where a person made a comment about how the killer was Graendal and RJ responded that he thought that even the most casual reader should pick up on that.  I disagree with that statement, but nonetheless it was confirmation from RJ himself.


created: 2002-08-29 14:01:43
subject: <b>makes sense, graendal</b>
body:
when balefire rips a person from the pattern,  i wonder if it can affect memories of other people in anyways??  perhaps..  that would explain rands failure to acknowledge the absence of asmodean.  Cos we know rand, and hes not one to leave lose ends now , is he?  i mean look at how he chased after the rogue ashaman.. ?


created: 2002-10-31 01:17:57
subject: <b>The &quot;sensing&quot; issue</b>
body:
You know, thinking about it, I don't see how the sensing issue comes into play at all. We've never seen any reaction from Rand saying whether or not he felt someone channeling. Remember that he thinks Asmodean escaped. How do we know Rand didn't sense a male channeler, and think that it was Asmodean doing the channeling? He certainly thinks Asmodean escaped. So, I don't think the sensing thing is a factor at all. If it was a male channeler that rand sensed, he likely thought it Asmodean, and if it was a female channeler, there's no reason why Rand wouldn't have thought Aviendha did it (unless she had gone back to Cairhien by that point? I'm not sure). In fact, IF we try to assume that someone would have sensed the channeler, I think a male channeler would make loads more sense. The only person who could have sensed that would be Rand, and he probably would have thought it was Asmodean escaping. We don't know how long Asmodean was wandering before he got zapped. It could have been just after Rand's last section ended. Now, if it was a female channeler, Rand would have thought Aviendha, but who would Avi think it was? <br /><br />Just one more little thing of interest, didn't RJ once say that most fan letters get it wrong? Since Lanfear and Graendal seem to be the big favorites, wouldn't they also be the ones RJ receives the most fan letters about, in regard to Asmodean's death? I dunno, just a few thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-03 13:51:16
subject: <b>I'd bet it was a male channeller</b>
body:
Hey people, I don't know about you guys, but I agree that Rand would have written off any male channeling to Asmodean, especially if he was busy with Bashere.  That is, if it wasn't he himelf.<br /><br />To me, the most obvious ones would be Taim (only after taking into account LoC though) and Sammael.<br /><br />Taim would probably be looking around the palace before he went to Rand to try and use anything to gain power.  He would have little problem getting in since he obviously already knew how to Travel.  And since he looks like Demandred that might have gotten the reaction from Asmodean.  There's know reason that Taim would even need to know who Asmodean was.<br /><br />Sammael has the definitive motive for striking back.  He was set up as bait for a trap that got blown to bits, still leaving him with a bullseye on his back.  It's possible he went to Caemlyn to try and figure out a way to beat Rand by himself or what Rand's plans were gonna be.  If he saw Asmodean, he would probably have blamed him for the plots failure.<br /><br />I don't think it was Graendel because it isn't her style.  She would much rather have compulsioned him into obediance and had a rather nice slave or present for the DO (you know she'd take the opportunity to curry favor).  I doubt that Lanfear or Moiraine would have been able to get there from the Finns that quickly either.  Moghedian was otherwise occupied (already bested by the girls) and we really didn't know anything about Mesaana or Semirhage.<br /><br />I actually think Rand did it himself without knowing (LTT took control), but that's besides the point.<br /><br />Tid-bits ahoy and feel free to rip.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 17:17:26
subject: <b>You Have It Mixed Up</b>
body:
Although I'm sure you were using the terms &quot;soul&quot; and &quot;spirit&quot; as place-holders for your concepts, in the mystic tradition of all the Great World Religions there is a concept that the person is comprised of body, soul and spirit, only it is the soul that is the lower entity and the spirit which is the higher entity.  This is apparent in the Greek New Testament, where &quot;psyche&quot; (soul) is akin to &quot;psykhos&quot; (wet) and associated with the element of water, whereas &quot;pneuma&quot; (spirit) is associated with air because the verb &quot;to blow&quot; is &quot;pnein&quot;, as well as with fire (&quot;John baptised you with water, but I will baptize you in fire and the spirit&quot; ).  Similarly, the Hebrew term &quot;nepesh&quot; (Arabic &quot;nafs&quot; ) means soul, whereas &quot;ruach&quot; (Arabic &quot;rukh&quot; ) means spirit.  Sufism describes the &quot;jihad al-kabir&quot; or &quot;greater holy war&quot; as the war of the rukh to conquer the nafs.  In all these traditions, the soul can perish, and does perish as the incarnation that it was attached to fades farther and farther into the past (the mystic traditions of Gnosticism and Qabbalah definitely preach reincarnation; I don't know if Sufism does).  I think Jordan almost certainly drew on these concepts.  After all, Rand doesn't have 25 incarnations of the Dragon in his head, just LTT and (perhaps) another one.  Yet the wheel is endless, so there have been dozens of Dragons. <br /><br />In short, I think your theory has definite merit, but what you call the soul is actually the spirit and vice-versa.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 17:53:28
subject: <b>Cool Theory</b>
body:
Whatever you call it, this is a very interesting theory.  <br /><br />Nice Work!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 20:37:12
subject: <b>Rand`s blood on Shaol Ghul</b>
body:
If everyone wants to know what happens at the last battle we have a perfect marker in the way he cleansed Saidin.The evil of Shaddar Logoth and the evil of the DO fight each other ,are attracted to one another. In book 1 Morraine tells us that Mats dagger will attract any Myyrdrall around because of it`s evil.In book 7 Flinn puts a ward around Rands wound and claims he sealed them up for a while (the 2 wounds)to fight each other.When Rand`s blood falls on Shaol ghul  it will come from his wound and probably destroy the DO/DO`s prison/Reseal DO`s prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 00:24:34
subject: <b>What a Theory</b>
body:
Now, I must say, whether or not the theory is accurate I must say it is a damn fine theory. Well thought out. The idea of it all would make an excellent ending, and allI can say is..damn. Very good thoughts, even if it's not the real ending.


created: 2001-08-09 10:18:19
subject:
<b>Thanks for the positive comments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
To the Voice,<br /><br />You are correct that I basically used &quot;soul and spirit&quot; as placeholders.  I am not very well read in religous thought.  In fact I first wanted to use the word &quot;personality&quot; instead of &quot;spirit.&quot;  However, I decided that term was too cumbersome to use.  The reason I used &quot;soul&quot; as the eternal part was because that is how it is used in the books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-09 11:14:14
subject: <b>Mind, body, and soul</b>
body:
While reading this theory I happened to remember a passage from the prologue to LOC that I think supports the basic idea and clarifies how Jordan is wording it. This is from the scene where Aran'gar is complaining about being given a female body.  Shaidar Haran tells him/her;  &quot;You will adapt.  The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body.&quot;...&quot;Soon it will be as if you had never had any other.&quot;<br />Good theory, I like it.


created: 2001-08-09 13:21:26
subject: <b>I love it!!!</b>
body:
This theory is entirely believable (sp).  I especially like it because I don't want Rand to die.  You should post more thoeries! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Lan_Rocks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 13:56:49
subject: <b>I like the theory!!</b>
body:
Gotta add something in there for Mordeth though.  Per Lord of the Rings/Gollum, Mordeth will probably have some big part to play in defeating the DO, probably not of his own intention either.  I'm thinking Fain will tag along during the Last Battle, and play a part in the whole &quot;blood on the rocks&quot; part of the prophecy.  If it were gonna be a true parallel to LotR ending, Rand would go to Shayol Gul with the intention of doin what you say.  He'll change his mind at the last sec, decide to use the Cheodan Kal, which of course, wouldn't work.  Mordeth will run in, kill rand, beginning the whole spirit/soul transfer.<br /><br />Oooo, just had another though.  During several major battles, rand has gone to T'roid to fight.  Why would RJ introduce a corny &quot;detached soul&quot; point of view, when he can have Rand standing in the Dream Shayol Gul, and make the choice there?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 16:11:10
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
really well thought out, i really like this theory.  Don't know if it would happen, but i like it none the less.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Raistlin Majere<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Challenger of Gods<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Procrastination means never having to say you're sorry.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 09:00:57
subject: <b>modification</b>
body:
what about the third face Rand sees???<br />first: him<br />second: Lews Therin Telamon<br />third: ??<br />if this theory is to be believed, Rand's Soul would patch the Bore, or sthg like that... maybe his resurection will be in another body (a body on the edge of death, or especially prepared to welcome the soul of Rand by Nynaeve for example), it would be sthg like a soul's transfert, and this would explain the three faces..., the three being related to the same soul...<br />well, I don't claim i ve solved everything, event that is what will happen, but it is a basis of discussion....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-10 10:38:41
subject: <b>The thrid face</b>
body:
Gandalf,<br /><br />In my theory I postualted that the thrid face was both Rand and Lews Therin.  I believe that Rand is seeing Lews Therin, and that Lews Therin is seeing Rand.  I think that the whole face thing is a consequence of them merging into a single person (Min's viewing).  When the merging is complete I think that they will stop seeing the face.<br /><br />I could well be wrong, but I believe that makes more sense than some of the theories about that third face. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-10 20:23:44
subject: <b>Okay, so I haven't read it for a while...</b>
body:
But the impression I got from Min's viewing of the two men merging was that one would win out over the other.  I do like the third face being the blend, however.  If Rand DOES mix with LTT, then let's hope the madness gets lost in the shuffle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 22:11:37
subject: <b>Min's viewing</b>
body:
Foretellings and viewings mean exactly what they say.  Nothing more and nothing less.  The trick is understanding exactly what they say.  Min's viewing is:<br /><br />&quot;You touched and seemed into one another, and...one of you dies and one doesn't.&quot;<br /><br />It doesn't say when the other dies.  Just the fact of one dying and the other not.  It can be read that one will die in the merging, but it can also be read that the other will die somewhen else.<br /><br />I'll give an example of what I am talking about of how foretelling can give one impression of time, but what happened was different.  If you read the prophecy verse &quot;Twice and twich shall he be marked&quot; cold, there is a fairly strong impression connection between the events (including in time).  However, we know that the events that caused those markings were each different and seperated in time by a fairly wide margin.<br /><br />My point is that prophecy can (sometimes) give the sequence of events, but rarely (more likely never) will it give an actual timeframe.  That is why I have no problem with the death happening some time after the merging.


created: 2001-08-11 08:25:58
subject: <b>LTT...</b>
body:
okay i havent much time but how do we no if LTT is still there after the taint being healed....(okay soo i personally believe he will but)...there always the chance LTT could be gone and the merging of the two could be finished giving rand the memorys of LTT without the 'ohh my illena' crap.....this is my sisters personal theory and saying as she hasnt got loged on yet i thought id say it for her.<br />laranna<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-12 16:35:29
subject: <b>Excellent!</b>
body:
I like this theory very much, but I wouldn&#8217;t want it to be the end (for the simple reason of non having the end spoiled <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...and the Angel of death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> came among them and said: &#8220;Hi guys <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />!&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 10:49:18
subject: <b>Sealing of the Bore.....</b>
body:
the reason the Bore LTT set-up didnt work well was because it was done only with saidin. all ' great ' with the power [ creating things ] are done with saidin and saidar.  By the time of Last Battle, Rand will lead the Asha'man, and Egwene [ most likely ] the Aes Sedai/Wise Ones/Windfinders to Shayul Ghul, and useing both halfs of the Power, they will create a new seal on the Bore, which will last until that knotch on the wheel when somebody drills a hole in it. <br /><br />As for Min's viewing, it can be seen as a more subtle thing. in WH Rand thinks to himself that he can draw the renegade Asha'man, despite the fact that he'd never been able to draw anything in his life. I think the mumbling Lews Therin will slowly fade away, and it will become only Rand with his memories anhd stuff, like Mat and his memories. This goes along with the theory of the third person being a blend of both Rand and Lews Therin. It would make sense that a stronger Dragon would come out of such a Fusion.<br /><br />As for Souls or Spirits popping out and sealing the bore.........thats far-fetched enough to be in a Harry Potter book. Theories work best when you stick to the logic/science already set up in a book. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-26 20:20:55
subject: <b>Rand=Jesus</b>
body:
I like this theory because the idea of self-sacrifice connects Rand with Jesus to a certain extent, somethings which Jordan has done throughout. Though they differ emmensely in terms of character, both are messiah figures. Jesus of course saves people from there sins, while Rand will save them from them the devil himself. The concept is the same with Rand fighting the Dark One a definate symbolism of sin. This theory brings to light the idea of Rand resurrecting, which again fits with the Christ parallelism. Also, comparing Biblical prophecy with Dragon prophecy, one can see the similarities. <br /><br />Of course this theory doesn't exactly match up with Jesus, but I don't think Jordan has ever made obvious connections for us. Still the idea of Rand willingly sacrificing himself to &quot;save&quot; humanity only to return to life a short while later makes perfect sense to me in keeping with the Christ-tradition. As we all know Jordan is big on religious matters, hence the whole Creator vs. Dark One thing. Few fantasy books have such an obvious monotheistic world view (at least with the Creator still seen by the masses as a &quot;good guy&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, so comparing the Dragon Reborn saga with Christianity is that far fetched. God Bless.<br />


created: 2002-01-02 05:07:41
subject: <b>this sounds too familar</b>
body:
I don't think we will see this ending because it is too similar to another ending. This theory smacks of the covenant ending (Thomas Covenant from the white gold series written by Donaldson). Jordan is more original than that in my opinion. Covenant dies twice and stops lord foul. Hopefully Jordan will be able to end this thing with the same style and grace that he has used for writing this series. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-06 09:01:08
subject: <b>Very Possible In Essence But...</b>
body:
I think LTT's death at the last battle is a give in because it will allow Rand to live his own life after the battle. However I can't say I agree with the rest of it. It's all a little too airy fairy (for want of a better description) for RJ. I think the Last Battle is going to blow us all away and no one will have forseen RJ's vision.


created: 2002-12-04 17:03:53
subject: <b>Rand's ressurection</b>
body:
You wondered about Rand coming back to life.  Remember: &quot;Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead.&quot;  LOC 7-A Matter of Thought


created: 2004-11-27 13:35:47
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
i like this it fits with lews therins mumblings and rands morbid streak. presumably birgitte would remeber how she was ripped out of tel'aran'rhiod and teach it Rands Hareem, they could then reduce their waiting time<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-11 02:27:45
subject: <b>noooo....</b>
body:
This sounds like a whole lot of crap... I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good solution to the last battle and stuff, but do you really think this is how RJ will write it?? The stuff about soles and spirits was kinda cool, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 17:03:05
subject: <b>I like it!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This is another nail in the Taimedred coffin. Of course this debate still won't get settled until at least book 10 or so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 17:25:07
subject: <b>No Proof at All</b>
body:
Whether or not Taim is Demandred, I see no reason to believe this is proof of anything.  Maybe Demandred wanted to lead Bashere and his army out of the Borderlands and felt that he could, as Taim, do that best by letting Bashere track him.  Or perhaps the real Mazrim Taim headed south and was butchered by Demandred, who assumed his likeness, after he arrived in Caemlyn.  After all, it's after he shows his face at the beginning of LoC that Bashere doesn't recognize him.  Simply put, there are lots of reasons why a &quot;Taimandred&quot; theory wouldn't be put to rest by this point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 17:47:42
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Maybe there should ba a fricken moratorium on the Taimandred debate.  It's getting to be like the Pro Life/Choice debate.  Either you agree, or you don't, and there is not enough INCONTRADICTABLE evidence on either side to convince anyone on the other side to change sides.<br /><br />For my 2cents, I don't think Taim is Dem, but whatever.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 18:07:03
subject: <b>No proof</b>
body:
I agree with &quot;The Voice of Lews Therin&quot;. This is not proof at all. I believed in Taimandred until Winter's Heart and I always thought the best version of the Taimandred theory would be that Demandred had assumed the person of Taim, AFTER Taim had proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn. This is why Bashere's comment would make sense (the one where he doubts the person in front of him is really Taim). While the theory is virtually dead anyway by now, this is not any reason for it. If it had been, it would never have been a working theory at all, since we knew this already when Mazrim Taim was first presented to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 19:29:57
subject: <b>Don't hit me</b>
body:
It's a very very long shot, but I like to be different anyway.  But personally I think it's Amos' soul/spirit inhabiting Taim's body.  What better punishment for failure than to throw him right back under the command of Rand.  That would also explain his stiffness and rage whenever Rand orders him to do somthing.  I don't think the DO would just throw him away, no matter how he failed, he could still be of use.  And I say this because I also don't believe that Amos was killed by bail fire.  A spell of that magnitude, even a small stream of it would have been felt by rand since it was not that far from him.  Even if a woman had channeled the bail fire, Rand would have felt a tingle from that kind of power.  Yeah, it's a long shot, but In RandLand, it is definatly possible.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-08 20:10:26
subject: <b>Taims comments</b>
body:
The main problem with that is Taim says he knows traveling why would Taim as Taim not travel he has as much reason as Demandred to walk. well anyway<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 20:46:53
subject: <b>No, Taim couldn't travel</b>
body:
He learned from Rand, so it's just natural he (if he is simply Taim) didn't use traveling. As far as I remember though (I don't have the books to check), he actually used the term &quot;Travel&quot; about what Rand did, without Rand telling him that name. Interesting (if I remember correctly), but not a point anymore with the Taimandred idea dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 00:33:17
subject: <b>A retort to Voice of Lews Therin</b>
body:
Ok, you said that either Taim wanted to get rid of Bashere, or he was attacked by Demandred in caemlyn. Why would Demandred want Bashere with Rand? He should have been working on turning one of the worlds top five captains AGAINST rand, not towards him. Even if they weren't direct adversaries, he would have benefited more by keeping them seperated (Two smaller foes are a lot less diffacult to face than one larger one) And as for killing Taim in Caemlyn, that makes no sense. First of all, how did he know Taim would go to Caemlyn at the same time Rand was there? He could have done it spur of the moment, as soon as the two came together, but whos to say they would have come together? Rand didn't announce his amnesty until AFTER bashere arrived, which would have been after Taim arrived in Caemlyn. Also, if Demandred was to assume Taims identity, why do it then, instead of right after he was caught by Aes Sedai? I think it is fairly obvious that there were black sisters involved in his capture (I mean, he's the first Channeler to escape AS once caught. I don't think thats just a coincidence, he had inside help) and Demandred could have worked with the Black sisters instead of letting Taim roam around on his own for a while and lead Bashere straight to Rand. It is possible, but i think it is VERY unlikely


created: 2001-08-09 01:19:55
subject: <b>traveling</b>
body:
there are plenty of reasons not to travel.  Maybe Demandred (Taim) led Bashere to Rand by walking to add support to his disguise, as opposed to just showing up.


created: 2001-08-09 04:42:07
subject: <b>Prophet and loss</b>
body:
I think Demandred is using Masema. At the Forsaken gathering at Graendal's, she thought &quot;events to the south&quot; looked like Demandred. She lives in Arad Doman, one place to the south is Ghealdan.<br /><br />&quot;Lackeys carving out power&quot; - the only place I think this sort of thing is happening apart from the Seanchan invasion is with the Prophet's mob. Plus what better revenge than to subvert the Dragon's own followers.<br /><br />Plus Masema in Winter's Heart is showing a distinctly un-disciple like desire to kneel at the feet of his God - witness his attempted alliance with the Seanchan. Could be an attempt for Demandred to link  with Semirhage.<br /><br />I've probably made loads of factual errors on this as my memory is pants so please feel free to demolish this idea.


created: 2001-08-09 08:29:44
subject: <b>This is pathetic</b>
body:
Oh yeah, like Taimandred is going to Travel, i can really imagine it. &quot;I really don't want everyone to know that I am Demandred, so I will just Travel away, and completely baffle Bashere with how i disappeared, then if ever he meets Rand... well i might have a bit of explaining to do, but i can get around that, can't I. I'll just explained that i learnt to channel of my own accord, Rand will believe me.?&quot;<br />Yeah. Right.


created: 2001-08-09 15:46:17
subject: <b>I don't believe Taim and Demandred are the same person, but...</b>
body:
I'm not convinced either way.  I will say, however, that I posted something to the effect that he couldn't be Demandred because of the timeline, and it was pointed out to me that:<br /><br />Most people who believe Taim is Demandred don't think that Taim has ALWAYS been Demandred.  In other words, he commandeered his identity.<br /><br />If he did take Taim's identity, he probably did so right after arriving in Caemlyn, when Demandred explained his plan to Mesaana and Graendal and everyone else.<br /><br />May the author FINALLY resolve this dispute in the next book.  PLEASE?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 18:08:22
subject: <b>Why</b>
body:
Why would Demandred lead Bashere to Rand?<br />Quite simple - to follow the Dark One's order and &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot;<br /><br />Personally im of the view Taim is an attractive red herring and Demandred is Weiramon(dred?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />As a side comment to the original theory I think that Graendal is Asmodean's killer...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 18:09:04
subject: <b>Nope.</b>
body:
That order didn't come till later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 07:27:22
subject: <b>Your wrong Burr</b>
body:
The order to let the Lord of Chaos rule was given at the beginning of TLOFC.  Taim showed up to meet Rand after the prologue, but even if it hadn't been given first, maybe Bashere is a darkfriend (I doubt it).


created: 2001-08-11 11:40:27
subject: <b>Really??</b>
body:
I thought it was the prologue of LoC.  (I guess cause the ending of that bit was in the epilogue of LoC).<br /><br />Well, okay.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 01:38:46
subject: <b>Taimandred whatever...</b>
body:
Sorry,<br /><br />Mazrim Taim is just that Mazrim Taim.  Demandred is not him or abduct him or whatever. However it seems more likely that Moridin has been dealing with Mazrim.  Teaching him what he has needed to know, one reason Taim always appears with a smirk on his lips.<br /><br />Think of the timeline's involved with Rand being heralded as the Dragon Reborn in the GH.  As we learn in the DR, Taim, and the other false Dragon in Haddon Mirk, all fell unconcious immediatley following Rand's victory at Falme.  Also Taim had been winning the batll up to that point, Demandred is good at what he does but he is not that good. Ishmael, Rahvin, Samuel were all better than he. Yes they are dead because they dared more- Demandred is to cautious to lay out such a bold plan.  Again, however, I believe more that Moridin is pulling Taim's strings.  Nothing is mentioned on this at all but its a good hunch.<br /><br />Moridin has and will always be much more dangerous than the forsaken.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-30 08:44:14
subject: <b>Bad Ashmans</b>
body:
When Rand went to Far Madding to kill the &quot;bad Ashmans&quot; didn`t Fain show him what two of them had said before the died? And they said that they had spoken to Taim AND D. Ofcourse he can still be the same person, but I don`t really think so. But I REALLY think Taim is a very BAD PERSON.


created: 2001-12-13 12:44:36
subject: <b>Stealth</b>
body:
Ok, I can see where your theory about the Traveling is valid.  But think of it this way.  If Taim is Damandred (just go with it for a second), then using an art that has not been used in thousands of years would most likely lead to the rumors of him being one of the Forsaken, and he would never get into Rands good graces to STAB HIM IN THE BACK!!!


created: 2002-09-17 17:23:35
subject: <b>Oh, come on...</b>
body:
The fact is that none of us know as much as we would like to think we do. I personally have always liked the Taimandred theory, and nothing I have seen gives me reason to think otherwise. My thinking doesn't lie among the lines of having proof that Demandred is Taim... merely that there really is no one else, and according to Jordan, it should be obvious who all the Forsaken are. Who else is OBVIOUSLY Demandred? No one! IMHO, Jordan has hidden Dem in plain sight. I will believe otherwise when I see Taim and Demandred in the same room simultaneously, or when one is BFed and the other stubbornly persists in their existence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 19:17:45
subject: <b>You are probably right, but...</b>
body:
There are quite a few other things pointing to Guire not being LTT reborn. The best I can think of is this:<br /><br />Everyone, including Baalzaemon and Verin, have mentioned Guire in a way that shows he's considered to be a False Dragon. I doubt LTT would ever be reborn as something other than the real Dragon. The different prophecies comes from a time before Amalasan, and since he didn't fulfill them, the only reasonable explanation is that he actually WAS a false Dragon and nothing else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 21:05:46
subject: <b>Names</b>
body:
While we're on the subject of Names, I just have a question.  Why does everyone refer to Lews Therin as Lews Therin?  Lews was his first name, why don't they just call him that?  It doesn't make sense to me.  Therin was his last name.  The third name, Telemon, was given to him later for his accomplishments.  When they call him &quot;Lews Therin,&quot; it just seems wierd to me.  It should just be Lews.<br />I wonder what the people who never were honored with the third name (Barid Bel) were referred to as?  I can't guess.  It just seems like they are Aiel, calling everyone by their entire name.  It's odd.


created: 2001-08-11 21:21:12
subject: <b>Not weird...</b>
body:
George Bush<br />Jesse Jackson<br />Robert Jordan<br />Leonardo Davinci<br />Etc.<br /><br />Sometimes we call important people by their last names, but almost never by just their first names.  If you did that, people would think you were a snob or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 21:33:24
subject: <b>Surnames and first names</b>
body:
There is still at least one thing I think is interesting regarding what names the characters are mentioned by. All Aes Sedai are mentioned with first names (Siuan, Leane, Elaida etc) while Ashaman almost always are mentioned by their surnames (Flinn, Narishma, Dashiva etc). I wonder if RJ has done it on purpose or it just happened to be that way...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 02:26:40
subject: <b>names and stuff</b>
body:
A few things...<br /><br />1) Demandred did have three names (as befitting the 2nd most distinguished person of the Age), Barid Bel Medar.<br /><br />2) The Aiel use both first and surnames in addressing people, possibly because they don't seem to have surnames themselves and so seem to consider both together to be the whole name. &quot;I see you, Rand al'Thor&quot; etc. This could equally apply to the AoL.<br /><br />3) How do we even know that &quot;Telamon&quot; was the third name added? &quot;Therin&quot; is his surname-equivalent (Ilyena Therin Moerelle) but &quot;Lews&quot; could have been the third, and a title, which would make &quot;Lews Therin&quot; comparable to &quot;Doctor Smith&quot;.<br /><br />4) Guiare didn't fulfil any of the prophecies. It seems that, except for the 'Into the heart' one, Rand's fulfilled them all by accident. Guiare deliberately tried to (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> banner, Children of the Dragon, trying to take Tear), but failed. Why should every false Dragon who comes along automatically have to be LTT in some incarnation?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 07:13:08
subject: <b>point about hawkwing</b>
body:
remember that Hawkwing`s name was Artur Pendrag Taenraill (ok i horribly mis-spelt that but it`s damn early and my head hurts),my point is he was named Hawkwing ,ie. just as Lews Therin came to be called Dragon ,Arthur Pendrag came to be called Hawkwing so maybe in a future age everyone will be waiting for the fullfilment of a new prophesy ,waiting for the HAWKWING REBORN<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> follower of The Church Of The Probable Opinions&#169; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> marked with the dreaded LVIII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> smoker of the big choo choo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> bearer of the monolith <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> died from the shock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> 4th Letter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 17:43:37
subject: <b>Of course he was not!</b>
body:
Think about it:  the Rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, is called the Dragon Reborn.  This man would be born in mankind's greatest hour of need to save the world.<br /><br />When Guaire Amalasan came to power, he was eventually destroyed by a young king who was <i>ta'veren</i>, Artur Paendrag Tanreall.  However, he did not save the world.  In addition, it was proven that he was NOT the Dragon Reborn.  Thus, he was not the Dragon Reborn, the Rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon.<br /><br />It is an entirely different (and more interesting question) to ask whether Guaire Amalasan is also linked to the Wheel.  That is, was his soul spun out a few years before Hawkwing's so that the Seanchan could be set up when they were so they could come back and assist the Dragon Reborn in the Last Battle?  He may not be linked to the Horn, but I'm willing to bet that his soul is always born as a false Dragon or equivalent, and always defeated by the same young <i>ta'veren</i> king.<br /><br />Thanks for stating the obvious, though.  Guaire Amalasan was a false Dragon.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 17:48:33
subject: <b>Maybe, Maybe Not</b>
body:
Maybe, heros of the horn can have both Major and Minor incarnations. <br /><br />Consider Birgitte.  Maybe Birgitte was just the last MAJOR  incarnation of Birgitte. (Birgitte's memories are confusing though.  Birgitte had no memories before the tower was built in WH.  Part of the the white tower was built from Arafel.  Yet, Birgitte has had no incarnation after the existing Borderlands(including Arafel) was created!  (Sometimes I wish I had the BWB)) Unless the BWB says, we really don't know if Birgitte was the last incarnation of Birgitte the warder.  It is even possible Birgitte was Annie Oakley (but that is a theory for later <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) .<br /><br />Remember in T'A'R you can look like anyone you want to.  Maybe which incarnation the heros call each other and appear as is their choice.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 21:34:35
subject: <b>Rebirth</b>
body:
I'd say as far as Guaire not fulfilling any prophecies so he can't be the Dragon, the prophecies say the Dragon will be reborn when he is needed, not necessarily that his soul won't be naturally spun out before then. Kinda like the Horn of Valere, it has to be there at the last battle, but nothing says it can't be there before. Obviously I don't think Guaire was LTT reborn, as I wrote this theory, just something to think about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 15:51:00
subject: <b>Re: Surnames and first names</b>
body:
I just wanted to reply to Yubi's comment about Aes Sedai and Ashaman.  I noticed in WH that when Flinn &amp; co. became warders that it abruptly switched and they were referred to by their first names.<br /><br />HJ Shorter<br />WOT Obsessed newbie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Heather<br />Full-time mom, part-time Wotmaniac. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;He hit on Gimli but I warned him right off. Nobody tries it on with my dwarf.&quot;  The Secret Diaries.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 19:59:06
subject: <b>Age of Legends names</b>
body:
I've always thought that the honorific names were the second, not the third. Think about it:<br /><br />Everyone with only two names gets called by their first name alone.<br /><br />Everyone with three names gets called by their first two (with the exception of Ilyena).<br /><br />Doesn't it make more sense to call someone by first name followed by honorific if they have one, rather than first name plus surname, but only if they have an honorific? In other words: LTT was originally Lews Telamon and got called Lews. When he was awarded a third name, he was Lews Therin Telamon and got called Lews Therin.<br /><br />Now Ilyena is a rather baffling exception, but she stays that way whichever name is the honorific. She was Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar before marrying, and then became Ilyena Therin Moerelle. For some reason, her second and third names switched places. Any guesses?<br /><br />As for why she's usually only called Ilyena, not Ilyena Therin, that's easy enough; practically every time we've heard her name said, it's been by LTT. I doubt anyone calls their spouse by an honorific; she probably called him Lews.<br />


created: 2001-08-16 20:56:21
subject: <b>Names and IMPORTANT Birgitte info!</b>
body:
OK first of all the Ashaman surnames is probably because it is more like the army and men tend to call each other by their surnames.<br /><br />Aes Sedai are usually called by their full names by anyone unknown to them and by their first names by their friends. Mathwin Sedai wouldnt sound right.<br /><br />OK now for the important flaw in the Birgitte incarnations. Birgitte was definately not the last reincarnation. She herself says that she doesnt know who she is when she is reborn but she always is Birgitte and returns to being her in TAR after she dies. This shows that there is one character that is always the same in TAR.<br /><br />Additionally I assume that everyone here has read the Guaire Amalasan theory in Post-WH theories. It is one of my strange ones, BUT there are lots of things that point to them as being uncannily similar. Also it WAS an attempt to explain that third face. I dont belive that it could possibly be a future Dragon or a mixture of LTT and Rand since they both recognise it as someone else. It could be someone else but than who can both do that and matches the description? <br /><br />As for the prophecies, I think that he wasn't meant to fulfill any because he wasn't the proper Dragon Reborn. Perhaps he had only a minor but significant role to play. Guaire Amalasan alone was responsible for Hawkwing's empire coming to be which lead to the Seanchan. Who is to say that a 'False Dragon' isnt part of the Pattern's plan and who better than the Second Dragon to play such a role. Look at the other theory! There is too much to dismiss quite so easily!<br /><br />And I dont think that 'every' Dragon is him reborn, only Guaire for the reason that none of the others had anywhere near as important a role as the others. As for Jordan not thinking he is important....just look how much info Amalasan gets in the WoWoT. No other False Dragons get anywhere near even a paragraph and he gets more than some of the Forsaken. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 01:04:57
subject: <b>on the Birgitte thing</b>
body:
My only thing with that is, supposedly, as it says in all of the books, the current times soon fade to legend, and then myth, and are long gone by the next time the age comes around. So even if Birgitte isn't her last rebirth, it had to be within the last few ages, before the 3rd age came again and likely at the very earliest, the 6th or 7th age. Everyone has heard the legend of Birgitte (that's a key thing, too, Birgitte isn't a myth. The characters do refer to myths a few times, especially in Eye of the World, but those are always referred to as stories of a time long ago, while Birgitte is always referred to as a legend.) Just a thought. As far as Guaire being a true dragon, I don't think he's a false one because of any reason besides the one I stated in my theory. He could easily have been reborn and just not been the rebirth that signalled the end of the age (being Rand, of course). The prophecies never said LTT couldn't be reborn until it was time to fulfill the prophecies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 01:44:29
subject: <b>Heroes' Names</b>
body:
What if the Heroes call themselves by the name that first become distinguished? For everyone but LTT (who, as the Dragon, has presumably been important for Ages and Ages), they were perfectly normal souls just being reborn again and again into undistinguished bodies. The Master Luhhans of the world, you know? They have a purpose in life, but not a great one, and they're not remembered long after their deaths. Then one of the incarnations becomes famous: an archer named Birgitte, or a king named Artur. So that name is immortalized, and the soul is attached to the Horn and gets spun out at intervals. But the person is called by (and considers themselves to be) the name they had when they first got famous.<br /><br />I don't know if there's any evidence for or against that in the books, but I think it works well with the quote somewhere above about Birgitte having many names, but always being Birgitte. It's sort of like having ten nicknames: you answer to all of them, but you have one idea of *yourself*, and when you think of yourself, it's with a particular name which you associate with you.


created: 2001-08-17 07:13:55
subject: <b>KLitke7967</b>
body:
I agree with the last part of your argument that Guaire could have been a less significant role for LTT.<br /><br />On Birgitte, if she had been a hero as Birgitte then surely she would be a historical figure. I think that its funny that Suian has the Talent of seeing Taveren and yet we havent had any mention where she has used this other than with our three main ones. If her last incarnation of herself was as Birgitte, since we know she was alive in the Trolloc Wars, she should be remembered just as the heroes of that time were. eg Aemon and Manetheren. <br /><br />Note that Birgitte might have been reincarnated later and the latest reincarnation of anyone bound to the Horn as the name we know them by has been Artur Hawkwing. Some of them must have been reincarnated since but as different names.<br /><br />Also we do know of myths before the Age of Legends. All those stories about Mara and the three kings and Anla the Wise Counsellor date to that time.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-18 21:01:39
subject: <b>Moridin_2000</b>
body:
This is true, I had forgotten Birgitte was alive during the Trolloc Wars (although probably not as Birgitte). Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 13:33:45
subject: <b>Guaire Amalasan was LTT Reborn</b>
body:
Hawking claimed he had ridden alongside The Dragon as many times as he had ridden against him. It is my belief that People Bound to the Wheel are spun out when the Pattern requires them for a certain task. For instance;<br /><br />The wheel spins out the Dragon soul, and it is born in the form of Guaire Amalasan. GA Reads up on the Prophecies [ just like Rand did ], gathered an army behind him, and attempted to take the Stone of Tear. Who stopped him? Artur Hawking. a young Hawking. it was in those very battles where he got his nickname, Hawking. And thus began his ascent to King of the World [ just about anyway ]. Which led to him sending his son across the great ocean to Seanchan, which have now come back, at the very time when the Dragon Reborn begins to make his claim on the world.<br /><br />while Guaire Amalasan didnt fill the Prophecies of the Dragon, i think he was still the Dragon's soul Reborn. In fact, i think Lews Therin's soul has been Reborn a bunch of times in the three thousand years since his death. But it wasnt until the Pattern/Wheel/Creator or whatever felt the Seals weakening, and knew the Dragon's soul was needed again.<br /><br />Another reason why Guaire Amalasan has to be SOMEONE Reborn, is that Artur Hawking never beat him. One of the Greatest Generals of all time couldnt beat one false Dragon? No. Lews Therin was a great General. it was his souhl Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Knave  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-20 00:38:36
subject: <b>Others</b>
body:
Know what I'm interested in? Yurian Strongbow, Raolin Darksbane (spelling I can't even remember his first name now), and those other people mentioned as False Dragons. I don't think anything is ever really mentioned about them (unless it was in Winter's Heart concerning Far Madding and I missed it?) Who were they? We know quite a bit about Guaire through the Guide, and Mazrim Taim and Logain through the series, but what about those other two?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 00:28:58
subject: <b>*yawns*</b>
body:
Well, I can see that this could pose a big question on if the dragon had been Guire, but I thought it had been proven almost beyond a shadow of a doubt that Guire was not the dragon reborn. And I also thought that he was only spun out at really critical times, which made him such a powerful tavern, but oh well, this is way too much heavy thinking for me at this hour.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 11:16:30
subject: <b>Choice of name usage with the heroes of the horn</b>
body:
Name usage is most likely linked to the incarnation that tied them to the horn originally.  For Brigette the incarnation of Birgette is the one that tied her to the horn so that is the name they call her.  The same with the other heroes.  They could have been reborn uncounted times before or after but that incarnation tied them to the horn, so that is their name.


created: 2002-09-28 11:16:14
subject: <b>Guaire Amalasan IS LTT</b>
body:
I specifically recall either Perrin or Mat matter-of-factly &quot;seeing&quot; Rand in the past fighting Artur Hawkwing. Perhaps one day I will look for it, or one of you that has more time can do it.


created: 2002-10-31 01:29:01
subject: <b>Seeing Rand</b>
body:
It'd have to be Mat, if it did happen. I don't remember it, but I'm rereading the series, I'm up to the beginning of Book 6, so if I see anything, I'll let you know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 23:18:15
subject: <b>response to Burr</b>
body:
If you suddenly found yourself in someone elses head, do you honestly think that you would try and engage the person in a conversation?  Or would you start rambaling about different things, figuring that you had lost it?


created: 2001-08-11 23:24:58
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
And, in fact, tried to post a theory almost exactly like it.  It's sort of like zero just said.  If YOU found yourself in someone else's head, you wouldn't be all that coherent, either.  Besides, I think all the information he has given Rand sort of rules out insanity.  He has helped a lot with memories about how to use the Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 00:10:18
subject: <b>Lunacy</b>
body:
Am I the only one who doesn't think that Lews Therin's voice is anything more than Rand's own insanity taking over?  It sure seems that way sometimes.


created: 2001-08-12 00:16:40
subject: <b>Fear defeats reason....</b>
body:
When LTT screams and orders rand to kill, he is in fact very fearful of your 'Taim and Asha'man', because he knows not to trust any channeling man (after the stuff up while sealing the Bore), because he has been burned once and he doesnt want to be near anyone else who can channel...<br /><br />But zero and Grak have also established this, good work lads...<br /><br />Madrox out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 00:58:28
subject: <b>He's a mad man with lucid moments</b>
body:
I think hes as mad as the mad hatter but he slips into moments of lucidity now and again Or just because he is mad doenst mean he isnt sometimes right either way hes not all wrong.


created: 2001-08-12 02:42:18
subject: <b>You should mention</b>
body:
that LTT has been getting a lot saner of late. Quite a few times he says something &quot;sounding almost sane&quot; according to Rand. Especially that comment in book 8 or 9, &quot;i would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad&quot;. He definitely has not gibbered much at all in book 9. Note that the saner LTT seems to get, the madder Rand seems to be.


created: 2001-08-12 09:47:41
subject: <b>Ishamael may not have permanently healed the madness...</b>
body:
And Rand isn't a hero of the horn, he's something else entirely...don't argue with me here, the point has been made before, Rand has differences to the horn heroes.<br /><br />Oh, yeah...LTT -HAS- to be affected by taint-madness.  He was at the breaking.  He may have been exempt while dead, but as he comes back Rand's taint-channelling affects him also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 10:42:42
subject: <b>If You...</b>
body:
If you had just realized you killed everyone you had been trying to protect, everyone you cared about, they don't you think it would cause you to snap?  LTT's final act was channeling a mountin up in his suicide-not exactly the sanest way to express greif.  I think LTT has major problems, but is not mad from the taint, just mad from greif.  He doesn't usually imagine threats, he's just a little parinoid.  No yelling about spiders or anything, just constant &quot;why me&quot;s.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 12:09:43
subject: <b>Response to kenco...</b>
body:
...I think that the comment from LTT &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad&quot; is more of an indication of insanity really. It tends to imply that Lews Therin thinks that he's alive and Rand is the crazy disembodies voice in his head. I recall something similar in LoC when Lews Made the comment that he told the Salidar embassy to sen no more htan 2 or 3 sisters at a time. Rand quickly corrects him that HE was the one who said that.<br /><br />   Your Master I think you're right about Ishy. In fact I seem to recall in the intro to EotW that he made a comment about his healing being temporary.<br /><br />   I agree with Zorrander that Lews is a nutcase that occasionally gets lucid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 17:27:46
subject: <b>Wolfbrother22 (Johnson) is Right!</b>
body:
I believe that LTT is a symptom of Rand's insanity combined with real memories from LTT/Rand's former life.  <br /><br />The only question is, if LTT is simply a figment of Rand's insanity how does he know so much about the AoL, etc.. The answer I feel is memory leaks from his previous life (most likely due to the fact that he is a hero or the horn and lives in T'A'R between lives).  <br /> <br />As proof that memory leaks can sometimes happen consider Mat.  Mat had a similar experience (prior to talking to the foxes) where he had a memory leak in a dream (tDR) and when he was being healed of the dagger and where he started talking in the Old Tongue.<br /><br />It isn't that much of a stretch to say that this could happen to Rand as well.  Rand, being 'Bound to the Wheel',<br />has memories while in T'A'R of his previous lives.  When the stress of the taint (probably combined with the fact that he entered partway into T'A'R in tGH) causes those memories to leak through.  As a defense against this strange leakage of memories, Rand's insane mind invents LTT.<br />Rand can now say LTT is insane rather than Rand is!<br /><br />I agree with the main post as well.  If you look at most of the statements from LTT from the perspective of LTT's life they are perfectly sane.  LTT saw the effects himself going crazy.  He is perfectly sane in wanting all male channellers dead. (I have no sane reason for LTT wanting to break the Seals, though.)<br /><br />RabidWombat (Johnson)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 02:18:46
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I think that if I had another person in my head, it would not be illogical for that person to think he had control of my body and I was the voice in my head. Rand and LTT are in fact the same person, just different incarnations and the soul. I think it's a fight for control rather than a fight for sanity. It seems rand is insane because he's talking to a voice in his head, but he's the Dragon...he's exempt from a crapload of other stuff, why can't he have another personality hanging out in his head?


created: 2001-08-13 13:07:21
subject: <b>Rand stupid?</b>
body:
Why is it stated that Rand is stupid?<br />It seems to me that he has shown great intelligence. He has managed<br />to do quite well for an un-schooled shephard. Part from bleed over memories from Lews<br />But also due to his own ablities.<br />We have to remember that Jordan has not let us see all that is going on with Rand.<br />For example, in the 3rd book, Rand just takes off and leaves everyone after the Trollic<br />attack. He obviously had a reasoned out plan, that we had no info on.<br />So a lot of the 'stupidity' of Rand is in my opionin just the fact we do not know<br />what is being planned by Jordan.


created: 2001-08-13 14:08:54
subject: <b>i disagree with Ralph</b>
body:
Sorry, but i think Rand is an absolute idiot who never manages to get anything done, and sits aroung whinning about it all day.


created: 2001-08-15 13:43:15
subject: <b>He is MAD. Period.</b>
body:
Come on, all Ishy did was forge a bound between the DO and LTT, so that he would be protected from the taint. LTT killed himself to destroy the bound. And he wasn't really healed by Ishy, he just became aware of ehat he had done. He got his memories back, sort of.<br /><br />And LTT was the not the most intelligent man in his age, only the most powerful. That is clear when you read the short story concerning the sealing of the Bore.<br /><br />He thinks Rand is in his head. That in itself is plain dumb. Please get over it, he is mad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 14:08:36
subject: <b>Lew Therin Better not be Mad</b>
body:
LTT can't be mad, because he is the only salvation for &quot;Randland&quot; or so we've heard so many times.  This goes with the theory i submitted a while ago, (which hasn't been posted yet as everybody has lives outside of WOTMANIA so no offense meant), where i state that Rand and LTT are two distinct &quot;people&quot; in one mind, you've all heard that Rand is LTT reborn, well, so maybe they meant it literally, and LTT is reborn in Rand's head.  I admit, i did think that LTT was insane at first, but now as i go back and re-read the whole series, i notice that LTT has been there from Eye of the World and is probably more sensible than Rand, which given his vast experience, (like 3000 years) makes sense, and the qoute about &quot;i would not mind you in my head if you were not so clearly mad&quot; is proof that there are two people in Rand's head and not just rand and his insanity.<br /><br />LTT has to remain sane long enough to help rand &quot;save the world!&quot;  that's all there is too it.  Or why would he have to be reborn in the first place.  If the world doesn't need LTT it wouldn't have caused him to return.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">boo's heart and soul <br /><br /><br />&quot;A few came close, but they ended up either having 3 nipples or an extra toe or some weird thing like that.&quot;<br />Wulf`gar<br /><br />February 22 ,2003 .. a day that will live on in infamy for years to come</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 20:18:03
subject: <b>Two Things....</b>
body:
One, another Quote.  I forget which book this is in, but LTT says &quot;Why do I have madmen in my head? Light, why?&quot; or something like that.  I really have nothing to say about that, I'm just tossing out another quote for you guys to argue over <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Two, with the seal thing.  I think LTT knows that after the Last Battle, he will no longer be in Rands head, as he will not be needed.  And, he is constantly complaining about having to be stuck in Rand's mind.  So, he breaks all the seals, the DO is free, and LTT no longer has to live inside a &quot;sheepherder&quot;.<br /><br /><br />p.s.  I think LTT may really be real, as in several instances, (mostly in WH) he is talking to Rand, and says &quot;we&quot;.  For instance; in WH, when Rand is in the cell in Far Madding, LTT says &quot;the box! ... they have put US in the box again!  WE have to get out!...&quot; (emphasis mine) and so on. (note the &quot;we&quot; and the &quot;us&quot; ).  Also, earlier, when Min and Rand are talking, and Rand thinks that death may be a release, LTT says &quot;It <i>is</i>!  Death <i>is</i> a release!  WE <i>deserve</i> death!&quot; (note, once again, the &quot;we&quot;, as if LTT considers them both real).  I think that this says that they are both real, as LTT and Rand both seem to think that they are both real people.  And if thay can accept that there are two people in the same body, WHY CAN'T YOU ALL?!?!<br /><br />My rant.<br /><br /><i>The Big Red Dragon&#8482;</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 22:40:27
subject: <b>why LTT MUST BE MAD!</b>
body:
ok...if he is not mad hten why did he want to destroy the seals? *puts on an anti sp's proof suit and activates the flaming deivce* he wanted to destroy the seals to release the DO and to die! he sais it all the way! nad if he is so bloody sain hten why doesn't he teacehs rand what he knows? doesn't LTT knows htat ilena (whats her name again???) is probably resurcuted or reborn already??? it is realy obvious that ilena is one (or more or all) of rands ladies...maybe someone close to him...but she is alive this round! she must and even if she isn't she will be in hte rounds to come! then if LTT is so bloody sane then why doesn't he helps rand? sure that he would have helpd but he is so crazy that it doesn't matters...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Buffy: 'ho, been a long while since i met one who didn't know me, you should get home' <br /><br />Kid: 'how did you do that?'<br /><br />Buffy: 'it is what i do...'<br /><br />Kid: 'You...but you are just a girl!'<br /><br />Buffy: 'that is what I keep saying' <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 16:13:30
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
I must admit to having a slightly different idea about LTT/Rand.<br />I don't know why, but I never thought, till looking on the internet, that LTT was dead, like a ghost.<br />I thought that it was a sort of time-distortion, or rather that their shared soul was outside Time. <br />I thought, and still think, that the LTT that Rand hears is still alive, in the AoL, though whether before or after he went mad, I don't know.<br />Furthermore, I think that LTT, in the AoL, is hearing the voice of Rand al'Thor in his head, and so he thinks that he is going mad.<br />He may also be hearing the voice of the Third Destroyer.<br />You see, I think that as the boundaries between Rand and LTT are eroded, LTT and Rand are beginning to overlap, and hear each other in their heads. Eventually, they may become one, at the moment of Tarmon Gaidon. Perhaps Rand and LTT were in the same body at the moment of the Sealing.<br />So, the Sealing of the Bore, and Tarmon Gaidon occur at the same time, the time when the incarnations of the Dragons unify.<br />I think this is backed up by that strange &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.&quot; quote: LTT hears Rand in his head, and thinks that Rand is mad. I must say, this quote came as verification of something I had long thought not only obvious, but the only possibility. I think it better reflects the infinite recycling of the Wheel than having some ghost/spirit linger on and enter Rand's body, which sounds a bit contrived.<br />Just a thought.<br /><br />-Salmoneus, the Divine Herald, the Voice of Truth, the Chosen One, the Unbeliveably Arrogant and Egotistical.


created: 2001-08-20 12:26:21
subject: <b>He's Mad I say! Mad! HaHaHaHaHa!!!</b>
body:
I have to agree with the fellas that say LTT is mad with moments of lucidity, as most mad folk (those touch by the light) are.<br /><br />I think the reason he's mad and could be the same for all the Male Aes Sedai is that the DO's revenge is to have connected him to Rand in the future, as Salmoneus said. I can imagine nothing worse than to think you'd defeated the biggest baddy around only to find yourself looking through someone else's eyes just before the end of the world again (Could be seeing through every resurrection)<br /><br />LTT could have killed his family and co. whilst seeing Forsaken through Rand's eyes, who can tell? Well actually I know a man who can.<br /><br />Strange to think of LTT getting saner (Is that a word) as Rand drifts into insanity. Maybe LTT will take control and save the world but I reckon Rand's doing an OK job anyway.<br /><br />Anyway the musings must stop there's reading to be done<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  Dai Lau   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ex-Cannon Fodder  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-21 23:27:15
subject: <b>Mostly, I Agree...</b>
body:
For the most part I agree, but it is also a possibility that (even after he was healed of his madness) he went mad AGAIN just over the simple stress and extreme sadness at having killed the love of his life <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> , not to mention anyone that had any blood relation at all to him. So I am still undecided on whether or not LTT is a crazy-demented- psychopathical-weirdo-that-belongs-in-a-looney-bin-for-all-of-eternity. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-25 06:21:22
subject: <b>I need to defent myself</b>
body:
I feel like I shouldn't be doing this, but the defense always gets to crossexamine, right?<br /><br />Kenco says he is getting saner of late. I have not really noticed that. I think maybe it is because he is getting used to and accepting that he is trapped in the head of this wannabe-tough-guy. Rand himself says somewhere(perhaps inside the TV-AS-box, that you can get used to anything if it goes on long enough.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Also, I am convinced that Rand, or the Dragon, is in fact a Hero of the Horn. All the Horn heroes have differences. I would like to see what makes that a closed case.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And he was not mad when he died. Ishamael healed him from the madness, yes, temporarily, but two seconds later, he travelled to Dragonmount and killed himself, and so there was not enough time for the taint to start affecting him anew. He died before that was possible.I would not say killing himself like that is an indication of madness. I, too, would have felt like I deserved to die had I killed the love of my life (he is fortunately still alive).<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />As for wanting to Break the seals. I do not see that as a sympthom of madness, either. Perhaps he knows that the Taint is somehow connected to the Seals, and by breaking them wanted to get red of that. The DO would not be completely free even if that happened, just as free as he was in AoL. Have to clear rubble before you can build.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I do not think Ishy forged a bond with the DO, partially because he cannot do that, only the DO can, and partially because that would not take away the madness that was already there. And it would not be temporarily.<br /><br />And Ananke; I think intelligent and powerful in the Age of Legends was mostly the same thing. He was the greatest Servant of all, and I doubt that they would bother with that disgraceful scheeming the AS of &quot;today&quot; do.<br />I think you had to be better at something more than swordfighting to be the first among Servants.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Please, don't kill me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 21:45:14
subject: <b>Salmoneus, your idea is great!</b>
body:
I love this theory: LTT and Rand hearing each other in their own time (AoL and present), sharing thoughts, and both thinking they have a mad man (or voice) inside his head..., and perhaps in contact with other reincarnations of the Dragon, past or future?... <br />The point is that Jordan is physician, and all this tale is full of physical facts, for example the Stone Portal to other worlds or dimensions: parallel or possible universes... (the fast travel Rand made in TGH with Loial, Hurin and Selene is based in time-contraction stated in relativity, for example). Travelling sounds like opening a worm-hole (a special kind of black-hole that could make possible travels across time and space). And Balefire, that plays with headaching time paradoxes...<br />The idea of two minds separated in time contacting each other, it&#180;s much better than the weird idea about a gosht mumbling in Rand&#180;s mind. I think RJ is quite brilliant making original plots, and I&#180;d be very dissapointed if that were the explanation.<br />So, if LTT is crazy or not, only depends on if he was mad or not at the time of AoL when he started to hear Rand into his head. IMHO, I think he isn&#180;t mad, he&#180;s just suffering from deep stress and hysteria... (he never asked for this employment!)<br />I&#180;m not trying to state this is the clue (there are many other solutions to Rand&amp;LTT problem), but I find quite interesting that RJ (and many other fantasy authors) usually develop their universes around the &quot;newest&quot; physician theories...<br />Anyway, this doesn&#180;t solve our problem: to be mad, or not to be mad, that&#180;s the question. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-14 16:31:59
subject: <b>I agree somewhat</b>
body:
As the books progress and Rand seems to go mad, Lews Therin seems to get saner and have more lucid conversation.  With the taint gone perhaps this has been arrested.


created: 2001-10-01 12:09:27
subject: <b>Ishy's healing was temporary</b>
body:
In the prologue to Eye of the World, he said that he was not good at healing, and even if an Aes Sedai was there, she could only give temporary relief.  Therefore, if someone better than Ishy couldn't heal him, how could Ishy?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 06:56:24
subject: <b>I'll try to answer that</b>
body:
although I thought I had done it in the theory.<br />He could only heal him for a brief momen, and the taint would invariably start doing its work again. However, LTT killed himself before he could go mad again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 10:30:03
subject: <b>I prefer Salmoneus theory</b>
body:
Salmoneus, your idea has some really good original thinking in it. It is much more intriguing than any other idea on the topic I have read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 05:32:04
subject: <b>MAD</b>
body:
If think that LTT is mad because Ishy just cure him so he can understand what he have done(i dont rember exactly how it say since it was a while since i read it). And sometimes <br />like when they (Rand and LTT) were in the box of the AS that works for Elaida, he teach Rand how to break the shield and it is know that even if you are a mad man you can have moments when you are how sane that everyone else. And listen to the word of wisedom he gives Rand &quot;I broke the whole world you can to if you try real hard.&quot; Atleast it was something like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-12 02:51:17
subject: <b>sanity/insanity at the moment of death</b>
body:
this is my first post here, so hi to all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />now to the matter: i think ltt was mad when he died, after all. two reasons:<br />first: ishamael does not heal the dragon of any mental illness, he merely allows him to briefly remember the onslaught. now, the madness in ltt stems from the taint on saidin and i don't think it stands to reason that ishamael or any other knew of an actual cure for that (not even being tied to the dark one would serve as that if the one who got protected were already insane). the forsaken just knew of a way to erase some of the most acute symptoms. so, ltt dies a lucid man, but still corrupted.<br />second: it is remarked more than once that ishy's healing (or any other) would not last for long. while ltt seems to stay rational until the end, we don't have that many remarks from his pov once he starts channeling like mad (ahem <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) on the soon-to-be dragonmount. it makes sense to me that all that tapping into tainted saidin just plain erased ishamael's efforts.<br /><br />you mention the fact that ltt is still suffering from the death of his loved ones, and that is quite natural. i don't think those feelings tip the balance one way or the other, either. it is known that madness deriving from the one power makes you slightly paranoid (and ltt certainly shows some signs of that too), but we've been told little else about that. maybe every power-crazed man at times regrets what he's done.<br /><br />on the other hand, i agree wholeheartedly that being inside rand's head would drive the sanest man utterly insane in a few minutes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-dotp-<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> the more that it hurts, the less that it works <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 15:33:16
subject: <b>I can prove this wrong right now..</b>
body:
Alright, you all say that you would ramble if you find yourself in someone elses head. LTT says many times that he thinks Rand is in -HIS- head. Proving that he is very much insane.


created: 2002-05-03 15:11:56
subject: <b>Taint</b>
body:
To tell if LTT is mad or not we really just have to decide what the taint actually does.  In my oppinion it weakens the barrier between the minds of the reincarnated soul.  It obviously doesn't weaken the barrier between possible worlds or else Rand would have an infinite amount of voices in his head.  However, LTT goes crazy in the AoL because he starts hearing Rand in his mind and unlike most people the Dragon is not spun out of the wheel very often.  He is only spun out to battle the DO.  So LTT is crazy inside Rands head because Rand is crazy inside that LTT's head.


created: 2002-06-11 03:32:04
subject: <b>I hope</b>
body:
I hope I don't sound up myself but I always suspected Rand might be in LTT's head because of his comment about Rand being so clearly mad.<br />Now if Rand is in LTT's head in the AOL and LTT says he is quite clearly mad than I think it might work both ways. Say LTT is in the bath tub and a voice from a completely differant time that calls itself Rand starts saying Tarmon'gaidon is coming and that he must make himself harder, you'd think the voice was mad because your not about to blame yourself in your own head, besides the ridiculously out of place comments (imagine looking at lanfear while a voice in your head is say something along the lines of &quot;must be harder..much harder..&quot; )now suppose as time progresses LTT sees much of what rand knows coming to pass, LTT might believe what Rand says or have an increasing awareness of Rand's expieriences and so LTT helps Rand.<br /><br />One thing I can't explain is how LTT knows about Illenyia (sp?) if he is communicating with Rand during his own age, unless he is communicating after her death or he knows he will kill her but keeps defending the light and holding to his course despite any warnings. Of course remeber that we can only RAFO to be sure on some cases, and I think this is one of them.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Caraman Gaiden<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-25 09:40:23
subject: <b>I reckon...</b>
body:
the taint erodes the barrier between a man and his last incarnation. Several people have said this before. Cadsuane, who has handled more male channellers than most Reds have, asks Rand about voices before he tells her, because male channellers all get it, so Rand isn't the first to hear voices. Therefore, it could be (not saying it is, mind) that LTT, mad with the taint from the moment he sealed the Bore, has a voice in his head of the last Dragon. &quot;Oh why do I have a madman in my head&quot; would then refer to the 2nd Age Dragon. When he said &quot;I would not mind you in my head if you were not so clearly mad&quot;, what's to say he's talking to Rand? We know there are three people inside Rand's head - he could be talking to his madman, the 2nd Age Dragon, in the same way that Rand talks to LTT. Whether the 2nd Age Dragon is mad or not doesn't really matter, as madmen like LTT often think sane people are mad.<br /><br />Might not be true, but just a thought to throw in. I don't claim I'm the first to think it either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-05 11:05:42
subject: <b>Rand stupid??</b>
body:
Okay, Rand is definately not stupid and Im not sure why this was stated more than once in this theory. Rand gets things done in his own way and as long as those things get done, who are you people to say his methods of doing things are stupid.  I guerss that is just your OPINION but definately NOT a fact.


created: 2002-11-08 23:04:50
subject: <b>Rand is stupid isn't he?</b>
body:
I never really thought about it before but your theory has made me realize that Rand is, in general, a rather dumb guy all in all.


created: 2002-12-27 12:06:53
subject: <b>let's see...</b>
body:
First off: hello day_of_the_phoenix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />You might be right about his lucidity just being temporary, but erasing the acute symptoms would mean erasing the madness, at least since he died before it could work itself up again, doesn't it?<br />And I am not sure that I agree that channeling once (or twice, it would be) could bring the madness back to a noticeable amount...<br /><br />And to Enzeru Crossa; that does not prove anything either way... we know nothing about how LTT experiences the situation, and it might easily seem to him that Rand really is in his head and not the other way around.<br /><br />BtB; I never quite bought the weakening of the barriers-part, but even if that were so, I doubt that LTT would have heard Rand. Does it make sense that the DO has to be battled in only two of seven turnings of the wheel, and these two straight after eachother? And how does this explain the ones seeing spiders and the like? I get the impression that the taint works as... I do not know... something of a bad trip, if you know what I mean. <br /><br />And avhienda: Rand being stupid is just about the closest thing we come to a fact that is not explicitly stated in the books. But you are right of course; it is merely my opinion.<br /><br />And Tommy V; glad to hear of your awakening <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-01 02:57:39
subject: <b>I have to agree</b>
body:
I have to agree that LTT is not insane, but for different reasons. It is the same reason I think Ishy (Moridin)... <br />is sane. That is a theory of mine though I have'nt seen yet and will soon write. You'll see it soon I hope.


created: 2003-02-13 18:36:16
subject: <b>Speaking TO Rand...</b>
body:
I think I'll have to agree...has anyone ever noticed how at times he seems to be talking TO Rand...not just rambling on?  There are also times when he speaks TO Rand as though RAND were the voice in HIS head...it's an interesting set of circumstances....<br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind&quot;<br />Snake and Foxes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to blind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />Snakes and Foxes</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-26 23:05:25
subject: <b>About Rand being stupid...</b>
body:
I don't have anything earthshaking, I just get the feeling that alot of people are getting ignorance confused with intelligence.  Just because someone didn't receive an education, doesn't mean that they have no brains, as in the case with Rand.  While He never had the chance to train with someone(besides the short time with Asmodean), He was able to teach himself alot and destroy a large portion of the Forsaken by himself.


created: 2004-03-26 16:42:08
subject: <b>YOU ARE CRAZY, AS IS LEWS THERIN</b>
body:
Has it occured to anyone that LTT was NOT healed in the preface to the 1st book. He was subjected to massive amounts of pain in order to grant him a few moments of lucidity before he was killed. It sais something along the lines of &quot;I wish one of the sisters was here to do something for you, but as it is I have my own methods&quot; in a tone that suggests he is being sarcastic. WHAT PEOPLE SAY IS NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY MEAN, ESPESCIALLY FOR THE FORSAKEN. I would, however, like to congratulate the author of this post for his most elloquent description of Rand's intelligence. He is, without a doubt, the most foolishly philantropic egomaniac I have ever read of and it gladdens me to see other people spreading the good news.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Welcome to my mind. Heres a claymore. You'll need it.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-31 17:09:31
subject: <b>Dragon and Heroes</b>
body:
Keeps cropping up and keep wondering. You people say that the dragon ie Rand and/or LTT are hero/es of the horn. Well if that was so then surely LTT and previous dragons would be summoned by the Horn of Valere? Hmmm it appears that wasn't thought out too well...<br /><br />in my humble opinion the dragon is not bound to the horn at all because of his inherent uniqueness. I also believe that due to LTT death by channeling Spirit, his spirit resided in Dragon mount and then went to shelter with Rand's body when he was born. Or something like that, its late gotta sleep.<br />Feel free to rip this to shreds.


