# w_comment

created: 2002-09-06 00:34:35
subject: <b>No mate</b>
body:
The bore was made by a team consisting of both men and women.Everything was done like that in the AOL.By the way,very interesting theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 00:56:25
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
I like very much!!<br /><br />Maybe it will come full circle with Rand (LTT) and Lanfear unweaving it.. <br />Nice Job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Brihyanna Sarabix Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 01:10:31
subject: <b>my bad</b>
body:
it was only Mierin and someone called Beidomon that made the bore my bad early<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Bringer of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 01:59:28
subject: <b>The true power</b>
body:
There is mention somewhere, I am not going to look it up because it is late for me right now, but when moiridin makes a gateway, he rips a hole in the pattern. Is this time travel? If ripping a hole in the pattern is time travel, it could lead to some wild possibilities about how the bore will be resealed. Doesn't really have to do with undoing weaves, but it does have to do with the last battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 06:27:25
subject: <b>Why does the Bore have to be undone, not cut.</b>
body:
If the Bore is a weave, not a hole, and it makes sense for a weave to be holding the bore open, then it could be undone or cut. Remember that unweaving a weave is only necessary to prevent it from being copied. And the Forsaken don't like to unravel, only to cut through. Moridin was amazed that he was so close to an unravelling weave and still alive. So why would it have to be undone? Unless Lanfear is dead, she could redo it.<br /><br />Also, we've seen that in a mixed circle, the members can channel both powers and see both powers. Rand did that with his taint-clensing thing. Using a circle, one person can take it apart.<br /><br />Comment, a weave only explodes if it isn't unwoven completely and then only by chance. Recall Avi telling Elayne that it may not have exploded.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 07:51:41
subject: <b>But what about the dragon</b>
body:
LTT would have been able to do what michenerj says Rand Elyane and Aviendha will do.<br />Not only would LTT be able to do it, it was the AOL, the knowledge of how the bore was made would have also be known.<br />I find it difficult to believe that Rand and Co. will accomplish what LTT and his 100 could not.<br />Why did LTT seal it and not undo the bore?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 08:55:02
subject: <b>well shadow killer</b>
body:
If you read the post right before yours, they point out that even Moridin is surprised when somebody unravels a weave. So, I don't think it was a common thing in the AoL, or even if they knew about it. As Moridin is believed by many to be Ishamael, you would think he wouldn't be so surprised to see Avi unravel it if it was more common.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 10:26:39
subject: <b>Nynaeve's Weave Holding Moggie</b>
body:
When in Tanchico, Nyn catches moggie and then has to focus her energy on some BA fruit that is throwing around balefire.  during that struggle moggie manages to get free of the weave that nyn had put on her.  Probably she un wove nyn weave<br /><br />Just a thought<br /><br />AJ


created: 2002-09-06 10:55:36
subject: <b>What is there never was a Mierin?</b>
body:
I imagine this has been suggested and ripped to shreds several times, but if someone were to massively balefire Lanfear...no more Bore, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 12:09:25
subject: <b>The Bore is a Gateway</b>
body:
Q: How does a male Travel?<br />A: He &quot;bores&quot; a hole through the pattern to another place in the pattern.<br /><br />Q: How does a female Travel?<br />A: She makes two parts of the pattern overlap and become exactly the same.<br /><br />The Bore is probably a male gateway with the female guidance.<br /><br />The seals eventually failed because they were trying to block an open gateway instead of closing the gateway itself. The DO is holding the bore open much like Rand held open Avienda's gateway to Seanchan.<br /><br />The alternative is what Moggy proposed when Eg asked her the difference between mail traveling and female in LOC.<br />If a woman were to try the male way of traveling, she would be sucked into that area between the pattern. What if Biedemon provided the guidance and Mieran did the boring?......<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 13:56:46
subject: <b>some thoughts</b>
body:
as was said when a male and female are linked they can see both halves of the source.<br /><br />LTT wasn't there when the bore was made so he may not have known it was a weave. <br />his hundred companions were all male as well so he couldn't have linked and seen the female half of the power.<br /><br />i don't have my books so couldn't find but around where elayne is unraveling her weave it is mentioned that once a weave such as a gateway is made the weave itself is impossible to discern with the exception of the last thread placed, the other exception is reading the residue, but that can only be done after the &quot;weave&quot; is no longer &quot;powered&quot;. <br /><br />since the &quot;weave&quot; holding the bore is still being &quot;powered&quot; no one can see more then the last thread placed.<br /><br />unweaving the bore would be dangerous yes, however, with the probable nature of the bore it follows that the &quot;weave&quot; may also be &quot;wrapping&quot; around parts of the pattern itself so slicing the weave could damage the pattern as well, specifically the part of the pattern containing the DO, that would be bad.


created: 2002-09-06 14:23:41
subject: <b>What can I say?</b>
body:
Good theory. Damn original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 14:28:39
subject: <b>unweaving the bore</b>
body:
Hey, I like that idea about the bore being a gateway, albeit a combination of male and female parts.  <br />That is an excellent idea, and it also offers a real solution to how to fix the bore.<br /><br />I definitely believe that Lanfear is going to have to help in fixing the bore.  Otherwise, no one will no enough about the problem at hand.<br /><br />As for Beidomen, however, I only have 3 words to say: he is dead.  I have seen alot of luny theories about Beidomen, such as him being Mordeth, or such as him being Bayle Domen (lots of laughs), but i just don't see any reason for him to be alive.  Can't people from 3,000 years ago just die like they are supposed to?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I have a few more questions about this theory.<br /><br />1.  Before the bore can be unweaved, Lews Therin's patch first has to be unweaved.  This means that seals will all have to be broken.  Basically, we are looking at a wicked fight up in the evil netherlands of Shayol Ghul.  The real last battle is going to be similar to the battle at the EoTW.  Rand will fight the true fight with the DO, while the surrounding armies help protect Rand and also protect their homelands from being invaded.<br /><br />What this means to me, is that the Last Battle will not need a whole book to be written.  It might only need a quarter of a book, or even just 3 or 4 chapters.  <br /><br />Basically, right now, RJ is just setting everyone up to be in their proper places so that the Last Battle can be fought.  My thought is that the White Tower conflict is going to the crucial step.  I think everybody and their dead brother is going to show up at the White Tower, and this is going to eventually escalate into a desparate struggle to get to Shayol Ghul and finish off the DO.  Of course, the horn of valere is also conveniently located in TV.  <br /><br />Once again, I wanted to say that this unweaving theory is a million times better than the balefire Lanfear theory, which was the only conclusion I had previously been able to see to the Last Battle.  <br /><br />I also like the idea of Narishma being there.  He clearly has shown his talent for unweaving.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 15:49:07
subject: <b>a few clarifications</b>
body:
People seem to be confusing the different ways of destroying a weave.<br /><br />A weave can be cut, picked apart, or dissipate on it's own.  People seem to assume that Lanfear would be good at picking apart a weave for some reason - I don't know why.  She doesn't even know that it's possible.  The only thing she's shown to be adept at is cutting male weaves.  And she may not even be all that good at that, all we have to go on is Rand's point of view, and he sucks at it.<br /><br />And the method that Moghedien &amp; Rand use to break a Shield once it's been tied off is different as well.  Like it is described in Lord of Chaos, when the knot has been tied off, you work your way into it &amp; flex.  If you're strong enough, it will burst.  This is skill Lanfear was referring to when she says that Asmodean never was very good at it.  And this is not the same as the skill Aviendha &amp; Elayne have demonstrated - picking apart a weave so it vanishes &amp; leaves no trace of it's existence.<br /><br />But like someone else said, if the bore were a weave, there would be no need to pick it apart.  Given enough One Power, you could simply cut it like you would anything else.<br /><br />Not only that, I don't believe it's possible for someone to pick apart a weave that is not their own.  If that were possible, how much sense did it make for Elayne to pick apart her Gateway, and not Aviendha?  Elayne knew how difficult it was, Aviendha could have just done it herself.<br /><br />And I must be forgetting something, where does Narishma demonstrate the picking apart skill?


created: 2002-09-06 15:59:29
subject: <b>picking a weave apart</b>
body:
You can pick apart a weave made by someone else , you just have to have controll over the flows . So Elayne could link with aviendha , pass the controll of the circle to her and then Avi would be in a position to pick it apart .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sawa TAWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 16:11:56
subject: <b>Clarifications</b>
body:
I acknowledge that there are a lot of flaws in my argument. The problem, though, is not so much one of the evidence disproving my conclusion as the fact that we don't really know enough about the structure of the Bore or about the distinctions between picking apart a weave and cutting one to be able to make any firm decision.<br /><br />The problem of picking apart or cutting a weave is one that I've never been able to resolve to my satisfaction. I think the main problem here is that we don't know anything about the Bore, other than that it was created with saidar and saidin. Is there some enormous, tied-off weave at Shayol Ghul? Maybe, maybe not.<br /><br />Second, we've only seen two examples of picking apart weaves - hardly enough evidence to draw any sort of conclusion. Honestly, the main evidence I had was that Jordan introduced the idea rather clumsily, which made me suspicious about his reasons - this was the best reason I could think of for bringing up the concept. We know that you can pick apart your own weave and cut someone else's -what about a tied-off weave?<br /><br />Anyway, I fully acknowledge that this doesn't have much support - that's why it's a theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> I hadn't heard any similar ideas and wanted to throw this into the pot...


created: 2002-09-06 16:23:53
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Okay, I really like this idea, it seems like quite a possible way to undo the Bore.  And I don't really see flaws as you say, only obstacles.  Granted, not much is known about the Bore, but Lanfear is one of its creators, so she could be grilled for this knowledge.  Obstacle to that is that she is currently mind-trapped, and could be prevented from telling anything with only a little pressure from Moridin.  But in any case, your point about picking apart weaves seeming to be just laying the groundwork for something bigger, and it makes sense that this is how he will use it.


created: 2002-09-06 21:29:01
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Since everyone here is done mistating the info, let me clarify. The bore was CREATED by lanfear and Biedomon. This was their attempt to tap into the weak  or thin spot in the pattern that would allow them to use an undivided source of power. They did not seal the bore only open it up.<br /> <br />The actual sealing was done by only male Aes Sedai. This group of males were known as the Hundred Companions, led by Lews Therrin himself. (Their number was actually 113) The Hundred Companions were actually tho ones to seal the bore. There were no females involved in the sealing. Which rules out Elayne and Aviendha picking out the weaves. <br /> <br />I do however like the idea, this would be and interesting way to open and then re-seal the Bore.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-09-06 21:53:20
subject: <b>weave picking</b>
body:
In the eye of the world, there is a sceen in which moirain is pausing in flight after using the one power and another charactor says to her , what are you doing, we got to get out of here, and she says...I'm making sure no one knows we were here. could it be that this was the first time we saw weave picking, but because we had not been privy to her pov yet, there was no way to tell the reader? This would be a great way to bring Moirain back into the picture, and give her the roll she deserves. by the way, good theory.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> P<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 22:06:49
subject: <b>Lira</b>
body:
there is a theory here on wotmania that outlines just what you posted. Have a look...it's pretty well done and I think it got an overwhelmingly positive vote.<br /><br />About the theory, I agree with those who posted before me. I guess that picking apart the weaves that make up the patch on the Bore would be a way to undo what LTT and the Hundred Companions did, thus paving the way for Rand to follow Fel's advice and seal the DO again (from scratch).<br /><br />As someone pointed out just above, Lanfear's work <i>is</i> the Bore. She didn't weave anything...just &quot;bored&quot; through to where they sensed this new power. Also, LTT and co. wove a patch over/across the Bore. Since there were no women present, this patch is comprised of solely saidin, thus neither Avi, Elayne, nor a Wise One could unweave it, unless linked with a male so as to see the weaves.<br /><br />So that leaves the question. Who will unweave, if this is what is to occur?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hedgehog</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 22:28:43
subject: <b>Nice Ideas here, but some clarification is needed...</b>
body:
First, from TSR we learn that Mierin (Lanfear) was searching for a power source that could be used by both Men and Women without the normal difficulties of saidar/in. SO the idea of her boring a gateway like a man or something is probably a bit silly; Mierin and Beidomon were part of research team, and likely spent a lot of time studying and researching what they were doing, and whatever weaves they used probably had an immeadiate effect upon the pattern as well as being severly complex... anotherwords its not just a &quot;weave&quot; holding the Bore open, but damage already done to the pattern. It is unlikely that all of those at the Paran Disen (sp?) who survived turned to the shadow, and those researchers who didn't would have been able to tell the rest of the Aes Sedai about the nature of the Bore, and if it could have been so easily fixed they would have fixed it.<br /><br />Second, the language Jordan uses to describe the bore makes it seem very much a singularity. A singularity is the point that is at the center of a black hole where the laws of physics break down, and does much the same to space time as the Bore does to the Pattern. It is more likely that this &quot;singularity&quot; will have to be removed as a whole rather than just cut weaves that may or may not still be holding it. <br /><br />Third, Narshima did NOT unweave Rands ward on Callandor. Rand gave him the key to safely unlock the weave and remove the Sword That Aint. Remember when the Forsaken are talking about the ward on the Hold at Tear, they say that if they didn't know the &quot;key&quot; they couldn't untie it (the knot holding the weave, not unravel the weave itself). Rand just gave Narshima the key to untie it safely.<br /><br />So finally, the reason we assume that the LB will be faught at SG is because this is where you can &quot;feel&quot; the bore (its not realy at SG, anymore than it is anywhere else), and because the Dragon can feel the DO to fight him. Since acording to Demandred the Bore is not actually there, it must mean that there is not an actual weave that is still in tact. But this was a great theory. And I have to agree that it is wierd that Jordan brought up Unweaving and then dropped it again, but I think along this vein something has been brought up and dropped again that is more relevant to the last battle is the Vacuole that Moghedien mentions in PoD. What if the bore could be &quot;concentrated&quot; or placed in a Vacuole, and then have that Vacuole cut off from the pattern. According to Moghedien whatever is in a Vacuole that is cut from the Pattern is &quot;gone forever&quot;..


created: 2002-09-06 22:44:18
subject: <b>A quick reply</b>
body:
I wasn't suggesting that the Patch would be picked apart, but the Bore itself. We know that the Bore was created with the One Power, both saidar and saidin, and unless you know something I don't, that means weaves. The Patch doesn't need to be picked apart - just break the Seals and viola, no Patch. If I had to guess, I'd agree with the people who posted earlier, saying that the Seals need to be  broken (clearing the rubble), and then the Bore needs to be picked apart... though that's just my opinion.<br />


created: 2002-09-07 00:12:38
subject: <b>why not?</b>
body:
Re: billytwilight, the comment about the bore being a singularity, doesn't that sound a bit like traveling with the TP to you? ripping a whole through the pattern?<br /><br />Asmo made a comment to rand, that he only knew of LTT, sammael, and one or two others (forgot, sorry) that could hold open someone elses gateway.<br /><br />why couldn't it have been a modified gateway, we know they can be used to travel AND enter T'A'R in the flesh, so why not more?<br /><br />LTT might have known this, and tried to seal it using tied off weaves in cuendillar ter'angreal (the seals)<br /><br />it also makes sense with Fel's comment about &quot;clearing away the rubble&quot;, the 'patch' would stop anything from getting through, but it would also stop it from closing as well.<br /><br />damn good idea about the bore though, wotmania, give him a 100 WSE points for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 01:47:49
subject: <b>A Few Points</b>
body:
1)  Jordan has already given us an instance in which a human channeler can see both saidar and saidin.  Rand used saidar in the cleansing of the taint, and he could see it well enough to compare it to a flower.<br /><br />2)  I don't think that the wanderer stepped outside of time, only the Pattern.  After all, the Dark One told Demandred that he could not bring Rahvin back because even he cannot step outside of time.<br /><br />3)  Many people seem to assume that because the Bore was created by the One Power, it is a thing of the One Power itself.  This is not necessarily true.  If you bore a hole through a wall, that hole stays there until you seal it up again, even if there aren't any weaves keeping it there.


created: 2002-09-07 02:32:00
subject: <b>about Narishma</b>
body:
I don't think he unweaved anything either, but he showed a remarkable ability to cut through Rand's traps.<br /><br />Recall that Narishma said that Rand didn't give all the information he needed, and almost killed him.  Clearly, Narishma had to improvise a little bit.  However, it shows that he is quite skilled at getting rid of traps.  I have no idea what this will translate to later on, but it would be cool to see Narishma get a bigger role in the future.  <br /><br />Now, about the Bore.  There is only one way that I can currently conceive of the Bore being unweaved.  This way is if the Bore is some kind of gateway, or somekind of 'singularity' or black hole to the DO's dimension.  If it is a gateway, albeit an extremely complex kind of gateway, then I think the Bore can be unweaved.  Or perhaps the Bore would not even need to be unweaved.  perhaps the old threads could just be sliced.<br /><br />I really like the unweaving idea, however, because they didn't know how to do that skill in the AoL.  This might explain why they couldn't figure out how to get rid of the bore back in the AoL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 03:28:27
subject: <b>Oops</b>
body:
Sorry, I started the bit about Lanfear being highly skilled at unweaving. Of course, no-one in the AoL could unweave, it is one of those things that these half trained barbarians have figured out for themselves. However, in defence of a further role for Lanfear (for no other reason than I think it would be neat), she is very skilled at cutting weaves. I agree that the patch over the bore can be removed just by breaking the seals, as to the nature of the bore ... ? Well, no one knows, I guess if the wall is sort of self-repairing, and the bore is a channel holding the wall apart in a single place, then unweaving or cutting the weaves will remove the channel and let the wall repair itself. If (as I thought before I was converted by this theory) the bore is just a hole that is no permanant, than Rand and Co will have to simply recreate the wall where the bore is (but doesn't this sound like patching to everyone out there?). There are only four new talents in this age, unweaving, bonding, healing stilling, and involuntary circles, surely they have some importance to play in the Last Battle? Each of these will have to have some use, which will result in why Rand &amp; Co win, while LTT + friends failed. Maybe Rand is forced by an involuntary circle by the Seachan to battle the Dark One's forces until they are nearly destroyed by the Chosen++, stilling Rand and killing most of Co. Then Rand is healed of stilling, and together with his bonded girlies unweaves the bore, saving the day?


created: 2002-09-09 18:28:17
subject: <b>Clarifications</b>
body:
Very good theory.<br /><br />Just some things to point out:<br />Weaves can be picked apart by someone other than the weaver, because Aviendha says she was taught to pick apart weaves by unweaving a knot in a flow of Air made by a Wise One.<br /><br />Also, the weaves around Callandor are inverted, so no one but Rand could see them, therefore unable to be picked apart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Tarmon Gai'don</b><br /><br />&quot;Oh, you stupid dancing Irishmen!&quot; - <i>al'Teara</i><br /><br />&quot;We are subject to the same subconscious tollways as everyone else.&quot; - <i>Totoro</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 02:36:13
subject: <b>Heroes of the Horn</b>
body:
There's nothing that ever said that none of the heroes that are bound to the wheel can channel. Maybe when Lanfear and the male Aes Sedai that was with her when the True Source was going to be tapped for the 1st time linked to do it , and then instead of going to touch the True Source, she made the Bore instead, and maybe the male Aes Sedai she made it with was bound to the wheel, so when Mat blows the horn, he'll show up, know how the Bore was made, link with a strong female Aes Sedai, or maybe a circle, as well as a few Asha'man, and he picks apart the weave that he unwittingly helped make.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-29 13:12:44
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
About Narishma, in LOC (Ch. 32 and Pg. 453 HB), in Rand's POV, he is looking at Callandor in the Heart, and thinks that &quot;If the Prophecies could be believed, whoever drew it out would 'follow after' him.&quot;  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Narishma had Callandor at the end of WH, and I believe that he was sent to fetch it.  So, here is what I propose.  Rand and Avi or Rand and Verin (who would be able to see both male and female weaves (see my brutally debunked theory on Verin)) will unweave the bore itself, but the seals, surprisingly enough will still be holding it open.  Narishma's role will be to &quot;clear the rubble&quot; and get rid of the seals.<br /><br />(BTW, I was just kidding about Verin, I have conceded defeat on that theory)


created: 2002-12-03 15:55:31
subject: <b>Picking Apart the patch</b>
body:
I wonder if Rand could pick apart LTTs weave of the patch because he is LTT reborn. Anyone have any thoughts on it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-03 09:10:53
subject: <b>I had this theory too.</b>
body:
I posted this theory a while back (twice in fact) on the Usenet group rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan.  I'm glad someone else either had the same thought or saw my theory posted and posted it here.  Thanks.<br /><br />Here are the links to the original theory posted (uses Google).  Or just do a search for Bore in the newsgroup.<br /><br />http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bore+group:rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;selm=91dvaf%24h8t%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&amp;rnum=6<br /><br />and<br /><br />http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bore+group:rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;selm=Pine.SOL.4.30.0203041506490.19863-100000%40yeager.cse.Buffalo.EDU&amp;rnum=1


created: 2003-03-08 17:09:30
subject: <b>Is the Bore a Weave?</b>
body:
Is the Bore really a Weave, though? I always assumed that Beidomon and Mierin used a Weave to create the Bore, but that now it was independent of the One Power (i.e. there is no Weave present anymore, just a hole).<br /><br />If the Bore IS a Weave, though, then this theory makes a lot of sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 10:08:14
subject: <b>fixing the bore</b>
body:
i think that rand has to release the dark one by breaking the seals. then, while he is fighting the dark one two Great circles one lead by Logaine the other led by an equally powerful Aes Sedai will undo the bore. this will cut the dark one off from the true power forcing the dark one to choose a human form and limiting that form to using the One Power which will proably be a female as that will be the direct opposite of Rand and that does seem to fit with The Creator's(Robert Jordan) scheme of opposites battling.


created: 2003-10-31 03:01:21
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
I never got through all the comments so maybe someone already brought this up but.....<br /><br />I'm pretty sure the bore is NOT being held open by a weave <br />a weave was used to make the opening but nothing is needed to sustian it<br /><br />you will remember that in the aol their biggest fear was that the bore was slowly growing larger and that one day it would be large enough to completely unleash the dark one but a weave doesn't grow it can be tied off but it stays the same<br /><br />the bore doesn't need a weave to stay open. once that hole in time was punched it gained its own force and would eventually have ripped open all on its own<br /><br />nice theory but it doesn't add up


created: 2002-09-06 16:55:36
subject: <b>to Stone Dog Aiel</b>
body:
yes! I had thought of that as well... but there are so many possibilities what could be in his dreams <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 17:29:04
subject: <b>Sounds plausible...</b>
body:
I don't think we've been able to see much of Rand's dreams since his early ones with the DO and Ishy.  I can only imagine how crazy they've gotten by this time.  No pun intended of course. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-07 01:11:49
subject: <b>damn.</b>
body:
when i read the title of this theory i was so hopeful. i thought somone finally made the effort to chronicle rands dreams to prove he is a dreamer himself.<br /><br />oh well.<br /><br />anyway, about your theory, i don't buy it. I think the dream we are talking about is about egwene trying change a lot of the whitetowers silly traditions.


created: 2002-09-07 04:24:11
subject: <b>I can see it</b>
body:
Though I'm thinking Egwene really wants to see into Rand's dreams because she still has the hots for him and wants to know what sorts of kinky stuff he's into. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 16:06:57
subject: <b>yes but...?</b>
body:
Nice theory, but what would happen if they see one of Rands Dreams, but he is dreaming of himself as Lews Therin Telamon?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 02:01:41
subject: <b>Egwene's Dream</b>
body:
You think that the dream about the black and white aes'sedai symbols are refering to Rand's unbreakable dream ward.  But I believe that it is a dream refering to the fact that a unified male and female white tower would be indestructable.


created: 2002-09-16 17:22:16
subject: <b>Forget seeing his dreams</b>
body:
Even if Rand stops sheilding his dreams (or doesn't get to, like when he's knocked out) Egwene won't beable to spy on them.  He has been bonded as a warder, and Moiraine said in tDR that warders dreams are sheided as part of the bond.  When Perrin tells her about the &quot;wplf dream&quot; where Rand nearly kills him, hes asks her if she can sheild hisdreams, and she says she won't if even if that's what he wants, because she's Blue Ajah and will only bond one warder.  The implication is plainly that the Warder bond itself sheilds the warder's dreams.  Rand is bonded twice, and even if his and Alanna's bond is broken or undone, it's highly unlikely he and all three of his other bondholders will agree to undo their bond just to let Egwene play psychoanalyst.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 17:19:35
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
they're shielded if the Aes Sedai shields hers as Moiraine does.  I dont believe that Avi or Elayne know how, and Min can't.  Alanna, however, is a different sstory; however, I don't think she'll have the bond that much longer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 21:39:48
subject: <b>like the possibilities</b>
body:
Disagree with the theory as a whole.  Symbol is involved in too many important things to connect it easily to one.  I agree that because he's a warder doesn't mean his dreams are shielded.  Don't think he'll get rid of Alanna, either. Too many uses he wouldn't put the other girls to.  Finally, though, it would be a neat occurrance if a meeting w/ Egwene convinced Rand to let her into his dreams so they could plot together. Would be a step in the direction of the path he's started on this last book - trust....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-01 08:09:35
subject: <b>Do you guys really think that Egwene is going to be able to break into Rand's dreams?</b>
body:
Ummmm....guys, it seems unlikely to me that Egwene is ever going to break into Rand's dreams.  Whether or not his dreams are shielded by his bond with Alanna, the only person we've seen in the entire series who even claims that it might be possible to break in is Lanfear.  Lanfear is the strongest of the forsaken, one who claimed TAR as her own....  Also, at this point in the series (if I remember correctly) Rand has not yet reached his full potential.  By this point, he is much stronger than he was when Lanfear threatened to destroy his warding.<br />  Egwene has learned most of what she knows from the Aiel Wise Ones, and they obviously cannot break into Rand's dreams.  While Egwene may be stronger than the Wise Ones, she still knows less, and if they cannot break the seal around Rand's dreams, then I doubt she can.<br />  Finally, I would be worried about what might happen even if she did manage to break into his dreams.  We know that sometimes Rand dreams as Lews Therin (grammatically, that's probably not correct, but, whatever).  If Egwene breaks into the dreams of one of the most powerful and knowlegeable channelers of the AOL, LTT may end up pulling her into his dreams, as she hinted the Wise Ones could.  Good luck getting out then.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The buck stops here.&quot;-Harry S. Truman <br />&quot;Nobody pushes a dwarf.&quot; -Gimli, son of Gloin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Jester-Warrior of the Black Tower<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 07:10:52
subject: <b>Not a good idea to spy on Rand</b>
body:
I'm undecided on what Egwene's dream means but if this is what happens then I suspect that if Rand finds out that somebody has broken into the dreams then he may well set out to teach them not to mess with him. <br /><br />It would be a fairly big invasion of privacy and he does carry a certain distrust of any AS that aren't around him at the moment from what I've seen. It could well also set back the attempts to convince him to be more trusting towards AS that Cad has been attempting<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-04 20:42:00
subject: <b>Might...</b>
body:
have to in order to save Rand. eg.  Rand's in a coma.  Will Egwene help him return?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 05:57:58
subject: <b>Me like</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-13 22:42:13
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
ok, i agree with this theory, but what does what lanfear says about breaking into rands dreams have to do with it?  maybe i am being nitpicky or maybe this just flew straight over my head, but oh well, there you go<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-27 22:12:07
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Why does she &quot;need&quot; to break into his dreams? It seems just like Egwene (or several other characters I know) to want to control Rand and every other important character (male or not). Can't a person (whether he is the Dragon Reborn or not) have some sort of privacy? That is one of my disappointments with the series: Everybody trying to control somebody else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 15:04:14
subject: <b>Personally,</b>
body:
I think Rand's a Dreamer. He could go to TAR to look at Callandor, and the gal there sounded as if he did so every night. That's evidence enough for me, even without the ones where he walks towards the White Tower, which sounded insanely prophetic to me.


created: 2002-09-07 19:26:20
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
I must say that I agred with the theory in most part...but I have allways thought that when<br /> the boom hits the trolloc is because he is ta'veren, not because he channeled but that would <br />explain what he was doing on the mast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 19:41:40
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
since we have only seen the effects of one male wilder, you could be right in that these are the typical symptoms a male wilder experiences when first channeling...<br /><br />Or you could be completely wrong, since Rand is kind of a special case.<br /><br />But yeah, I agree with what you have since those two instances all show the same thing. I guess I had never considered the difference between the male/female wilder reactions.<br /><br />Does anyone remember any mention of an Ashaman experiencing any symptoms when first channeling?<br /><br />(I'm aware that they learn to channel through a teacher, and thus aren't wilders, but maybe some of them began channeling before coming to the BT.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hedgehog</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 20:32:29
subject: <b>Pretty General Knowledge</b>
body:
I think that the &quot;sickness&quot; Rand had after his first three attempts at channeling coincides pretty well with what Moiraine told Nynaeve. If you recall in each of those situations Rand is described as feeling giddy so to speak, warm and tingly all over. Much like Aviendha saying that unweaving gone wrong produces results that you can't guess (ie- sometimes a nuclear boom, sometimes a pop and fizzle), so does a wilder's first touches of the Source. So I think its probably pretty clear that these are normal reactions, and that the &quot;thrillseeking&quot; is more a result of him being to high to think. Remember, Jordan often compares the True Source to a drug, and you never what a drug might do to you, it might only make you high, or it might make you sick to the point of death. I think the more important thing to try and figure out is where is Rand's block? Moiraine talks about how a wilder who doesn't learn control by the time the channeling and the sickness happen together then they are like a clock that is wound and ticking down to death. We see Rand's sickness happen 6 days, then 4 days, then 1 day after channelling, but when he channels at the Eye, he shows no sign of sickness. Unless waking up with the memory loss or that whole weird sensation he gets on the battlefield at Tarwin's Gap is the sickness. If so he should have died by now. If not, that means he learned to control the Power, and if so, he should have a block. The Aes Sedai say that wilders who survive always have a block. So where is Rand's? I think that it's probably the fact that Rand's demeaner goes all flat and emotionless when he channels. Don't know what purpose that would serve, but you will notice that all the Ashaman are full of emotion when they channel, and Asmodean told him that he should be able to go beyond that. Either that or he has already broken his block and we just never heard about it.


created: 2002-09-08 01:28:53
subject: <b>Rand's block</b>
body:
I don't think Rand ever had a block. The block to me meant that if you didn't know what you were doing, you would make a block to prevent yourself from channeling whenever you wanted. If you knew you could channel, then there was really no reason for the subconscious block. Nynaeve had one because she went though her sickness, and never even knew that she could channel, so she blocked herself subconsciously to not hurt herself, and thus, not draw too much of the one power someday and kill herself. Rand found out he could channel right after the eye, and then, didn't form a subconscious block, because there was no denying what he already knew, ergo, that he could channel. I believe that Egween, Elane and Avienda are all wilders, that is, they had the spark born in them, but they never had a block either because they had a guide to help them and there was no reason to block something subconsciously they already knew about. Nynaeve would have never had a block if she was found by Aes Sedai before she learned to channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 09:28:56
subject: <b>They are the same</b>
body:
Moiraine tells Nynaeve that a wilder can feel full of energy or unable to speak as a result of chanelling. I think that is the same way Rand feels. So male and female symptoms should be the same.


created: 2002-09-09 00:04:05
subject: <b>Pleasure vs Pain</b>
body:
It is interesting that (assuming the theory is true) that women experience pain/sickness when touching the source for the first time &amp; then after they learn they experience huge amounts of pleasure from using the power.<br /><br />However men have euphoria when first touching it but then have to fight on a razor blade when channeling afterwards just to survive.<br /><br />The euphoria may have something to do with the Taint also.<br /><br />Anywho.<br /><br />Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-09 05:59:43
subject: <b>No..</b>
body:
I agree that the luck was probably a case of ta'vern, but the other cases are all legit. Lots of research, but you can't conclude anything just from Rand, for one, he was also getting in touch with LTT (maybe LTT is an adrenalin-junkie, and his personality influenced Rand's after they made contact through Saidin). Or maybe Rand is just like that himself, afterall he adapted to battles and kingdoms remarkably fast for a normal ol' shepard, he must have a bit of a thrillseeker's personality himself.


created: 2002-09-09 09:13:08
subject: <b>Moiraine knew more....</b>
body:
I just finished reading EotW again and in it Moiraine says that the reaction from touching the True Source without guidance for the first few time can be like a sickness or a euphoric reaction as well.  Of course, I don't have the page in front of me, but it occurs after she initially tells Nynaeve about it.  Within the next couple chapters, she again talks about the reaction from the first touches and adds in the feelings of euphoria as a *possible* side effect.  I will try to find the quote later, since I do not have the book near me at this time.  Sorry, it was a good thought.<br /><br />On a side note, my impression is that Rand's first experiences channeling were 1) Giving Bela strength 2) Smashing the Trollic with the boom 3) Blasting that Gode guy in Four Kings and 4)Fighting Aginor at the Eye of the World.  First 2 get a euphoric reaction to the act, second 2 are a sickness reaction.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Where do I sign up?


created: 2002-09-09 18:07:32
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
I have always attributed the Trolloc getting hit by the boom and possibly the lightning with Rand (and Mat) being ta'veren.  The others, however, are definitely channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Tarmon Gai'don</b><br /><br />&quot;Oh, you stupid dancing Irishmen!&quot; - <i>al'Teara</i><br /><br />&quot;We are subject to the same subconscious tollways as everyone else.&quot; - <i>Totoro</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 19:00:05
subject: <b>Sorry, but no</b>
body:
Don't mean to be snippish, but both the Lightening and the boom were channelling. This is proven just by the sickness and lightheadedness after each instance. You dont get sick for being ta'veren. Sorry.<br />


created: 2002-09-11 16:31:03
subject: <b>What's all the fuss</b>
body:
As I recall, Moiraine flat out stated &quot;the reactions are different&quot; in her talk with Nynaeve.  There we go.  She also told that the inevitable death of a channler who never learns to control the Power takes different lengths of time.  Plus men go mad at a different rate: one went nuts the day after testing for the ability, while Logain seems to have lasted to his late twenties or thirties at least.  No one calls him &quot;young man,&quot; while people often refer to the 27- or 2<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />year-old Galad that way (for the record his mother went to the Waste four years before the Aiel War, and Rand was born three years after it started.  Rand is 21, so Galan has to be in his late twenties.  Talanvor is older and people call him young).  And the boom was channeling.  The sailor was way too certain he tied it down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 17:42:27
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I have seen this argument on other web pages, I do believe.  I pretty much agree.  I was hoping that this theory would cover something new; although it is probably new to the theory post.<br /><br />I am beginning to think, though that the chanelling sickness is not limited to EotW.  There are a few instances in tGH that are suggestive of it as well.  For instance, just after Rand uses the portal stone with Selene he experiences a rush of euphoria in fighting the trollocs.  It would be interesting to find out if Rand experienced something similar after his chanelling to cut the Lanfear's trap.  <br /><br />There are also two odd instances (in the EotW and in tGH) where Rand feels caught up by the wind and held.  (The air solidifies.)  These could be related to his chanelling as well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 18:51:01
subject: <b>whats in a week</b>
body:
In the beginning of your theory you state that the BWB says that a week is 10 days....well I believe that Moirains comment is &quot;a week or 10 days&quot; so it could be that RJ meant just what he said and 7 years later or so when the Big White Book came out he had other things on his mind and missed that one.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 13:39:27
subject: <b>one point about wilders</b>
body:
All wilders are people with the spark. They will eventually touch the source on their own, but not all people with the spark are wilders. If their training begins before they start to channel they are not considered wilders. So Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are not wilders even though Aes Sedai, in their infinite arrogance probably consider Aviendha, the wise ones and the Sea Folk windfinders to be wilders just because they weren't trained in the White Tower. Anyways, just pointing out that for female channelers in the main group of characters, Nynaeve is the only wilder.


created: 2002-09-18 00:05:07
subject: <b>What about Lews Therin?</b>
body:
I'm not sure I agree with myself here, but after reading all the postings it occured to me that Lews Therin is missing in all of this.  Perhaps the euphoric feelings were a dormant Lews Therin glad to be touching the source, even if it is vicariously.  Also, this might explain why there was no block.  Lews Therin's been there done that, and this may have all been subconciously transferred to Rand somehow.  I guess it sounds a bit crazy but I thought I'd share it anyway.


created: 2002-09-21 03:02:38
subject: <b>what about Asmodean?</b>
body:
Ok Rand would have a block if he was a wilder. Wilders learn how to control the one power on their own corect? Rand did not learn how to contorl the one power before he had Asmodean as a teacher , before that he was just doing things by instinct and need. Remeber he could not reach the source everytime he tried, nore could he form weaves he wanted to on command, and some times he would try to do one thing and do totaly the wrong thing. Therefore I don't think he should have any type of block, seeing as how he had Asmodean as a formal teacher.<br /><br />just a thought<br />Nick  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-22 11:53:14
subject: <b>my view</b>
body:
I always have had the impression that EOTW has the odd inconsistancy as it was written while RJ was still making WOT rules up - Morraine is using a staff to help her focus her channeling but I don't remember this occuring anywhere else later with an AS.<br /><br />I think this may well be why Rand's learning to channel is a bit different to normal, that and the fact he's just become the most powerful ta'veren as well as his first channeling's being when he's scared out of mind.<br /><br />As for the odd acts of risk taking - well maybe that's a foreshadowing of his Aiel half coming through? though again mixed up with the above.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-03-21 09:19:23
subject: <b>Why has no one picked up on this before?</b>
body:
I will quote from the paragraph in which Moiraine describes the wilder channeling reaction to Nynaeve-<br /><br />&quot;Headaches and numbness and exhilaration all mixed together, and you taking foolish chances or acting giddy.&quot;<br /><br />This pretty much describes Rand's thrill-seeking symptom, and this means that the Male wilder response is the same as the Female one, at least on the surface. Perhaps the taint made the 'foolish chances' effect both more likely and more effective, but it seems to me that Rand's symptoms are just as Moiraine described!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 14:18:36
subject: <b>The Shadow at its blackest</b>
body:
That is an interesting insight. Who, but Jordan, could ever manage to beat back the Trollocs. The portal stone lives you've mentioned about the Seanchan not even able to hold back the Shadowspawn invasion in spite of exotic creatures and damane make things seem very hopeless indeed. The Seanchan has the best armies in the world, no other army (we don't know about Shara) could ever match the Seanchan, except Rand's Asha'man and Aiel together, barely. So, how could the world ever hope to defeat an invasion worse than what the Ten Nations suffered in the Trolloc Wars?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 15:34:37
subject: <b>Very Nice</b>
body:
I think that the fact that we now have MANY channelers who know how to use gateways makes the borderlands irrelevant. With these armies now in a position to quickly join other armies, you see a better defense than could ever have been mounted in the borderlands.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Throughout history, when people get wood, I want them to think of Trojans&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Ned Flanders, aka The King Troy<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> &quot;That's no Moon...&quot; &quot;Here, let me hike those up for ya&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 22:00:10
subject: <b>Male CK</b>
body:
It is mentioned that a channeler with Choeden Kal(sp) could melt a continent so as long as Rand has his access key he can wipe out any army and even Narishma with Callandor can do same with 2 female channelers. So either one of them can slay any number of shadowspawns.


created: 2002-09-08 23:01:56
subject: <b>Alliances</b>
body:
In response to Gaeron . . .<br /><br />Had the Seanchan taken over Randland, their numbers would surely have been diminished.  Can you imagine the Borderlands surrendering to them without a fight, or, worse, the White Tower?  Perhaps they would even have tried to go after the Aiel, and we know that *nobody* can face the Aiel without losing a substantial number of troops.  Also, who knows what would have happened to the Ogier, and as for the Sharans and Sea Folk . . . well, you get the point.<br /><br />However, Rand *did* leave the Two Rivers.  Because of that, what we may be looking at here is an alliance greater than anything Randland has seen since the Age of Legends.  In some ways, it may even be greater.  After all, this is an Age hardened by war, an Age changed every bit as much as the Aiel.


created: 2002-09-08 23:42:58
subject: <b>minor correction.</b>
body:
To Nameless One.<br /><br />You state that *no one* fights the Aiel without substantial losses. However, the Asha'man defeated 40,000 of them with only a few casualties at Dumai's Wells. I'm not saying this to nitpick; simply to point out what a formidable force the Asha'man are. Just imagine what they can do now that they have some Aes Sedai with them. I think that they would be more than a match for any amount of trollocs. Only a sizable force of dreadlords will be able to curtail an easy victory for the Light. Unfortunately, looking at developments within the Black &amp; White Towers, this is already a reality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 23:46:19
subject: <b>Oops, almost forgot...</b>
body:
Cannoli, this was a very well-developed &amp; -thought out theory. I agree that the Pattern is at work here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 13:39:31
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
<i>The accepted notion of Tarmon Gaidon involves a large battle, and those with an eye to making concrete preparations for it have begun with the notion of re-fighting the Trolloc Wars (Pedron Niall attempting to unite humanity to fight a war; Rand gathering Asha'man to fight Dreadlords and attempting unification as well). </i> <br />Yes, but along with the Dread Lords will be whatever is left of the Forsaken. And, they fought their own World War in the War of the Power. The borderlanders would have been crushed if they had remained along the Blight.<br /><br />I agree, the pattern is at work. The Borderlanders were moved south so that they would not be whiprd out in the passes into the Blight. Those who remain in the garrisons along the Blight will fight the delaying action but the large borderland armies will be with Rand to form the core of the deffense. I doubt it will come to a full on face to face slug fest, more of a cut-run-turn-run deal. Remember Mat's thought before the battle in Cairihein (sp), he was thinking of numerous fields where those tactics had been used to great advantage. When you don't have the numbers for the &quot;human wave&quot; you have to pick your fights and targets carefully.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pike-Captain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Prepare to pass the Heart Guard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <br />Its time to dance with Jak o' the Shadows! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />War is evil. But sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils.- Kissinger<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 23:13:44
subject: <b>If they did break through the North....</b>
body:
As there are probobly no large numbers of Traveling Aes Sedi or Asha'man Borderlands, it would be possible that the information if invasion would come to late to save most of the borderlands.  The W.T. is fairly colse to the North though, and after there is a unified tower and a B.T. rent in fire and blood, Tar Valon will be very central.  Add in Dragon mount, I definatly belivce that the trollocs will get at least as far as Tar Valon as our heroes cope.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 00:41:10
subject: <b>Oops . . .</b>
body:
Perhaps I should have said that no force that could have existed had Rand not left the Two Rivers could have fought them without significant losses.  (That's another thing.  If Rand hadn't left the Two Rivers, the Asha'man, Legions of the Dragon, and Band of the Red Hand would never have been created. . . .)  I was sort of thinking along the lines of what would have happened had the Seanchan tried to conquer the Aiel Waste.  Thanks, Olu.


created: 2002-09-11 15:55:04
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
Someone said earlier that the Seanchan would have taken losses from the Borderlands and Aiel.  In Glimmers-SPOILER ALERT-Bashere states that &quot;...tyrants can be endured and the Blight killed the foolish...&quot;  I believe the Borderlanders would have realized the futility very quickly of fighting and bent knee to the Seanchan, perhaps even welcoming their support and the aid of thier monsters, even if they disliked the idea of damane and property.  In fact I believe that Bashere's comment supports even further my thesis that the Pattern is at work, since if Borderlanders can endure a tyrant ruler, they should not have any problem ignoring foreign troubles.  Thanks for the feedback.  I feel you can't really enjoy a book that doesn't make you think, so it's good to see so many people analyzing WOT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 23:19:13
subject: <b>The Aiel War Veterns</b>
body:
Although the Boarderlanders are the most experienced forces in the wetlands (Aiel aside) the constant strive between nations and nobles has to have created some very experienced soldiers we're discounting.  As most of the different forces are quite small it would be interesting to see how many of the more successful groups are led by veterns of the Aiel war as these veterns would be ideally placed age wise to lead the various forces.  A group of vetern 40-60 year old leaders with a bunch of young backs offers a rough command structure currently lacking in the Wetlands.<br /><br />However this means all those contentous nobels will have to co-operate better than they did during the Aiel War....<br />


created: 2002-09-12 01:50:05
subject: <b>Re: A Few Comments</b>
body:
I don't know . . . maybe, but I can think of a few things that the Borderlanders might have disliked even more.  For instance, many people on this side of the Aryth Ocean believe that the creatures the Seanchan use are Shadowspawn, and the fact that the raven is their imperial symbol doesn't help.  I can see them bending knee to tyrants, but not to tyrants that they believe serve the Shadow.


created: 2002-09-12 15:25:33
subject: <b>To Nameless One</b>
body:
Ouch, good points.  Still, THEY, at least, would recognize real Shadowspawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 02:09:09
subject: <b>Yes, but . . .</b>
body:
They might have assumed that the Seanchan creatures were a new kind of Shadowspawn.  I believe a few Whitecloaks also made that assumption . . .<br /><br />Still, I agree with your theory, for the most part.  The Pattern must be at work here, although I can think of a few other reasons why it might want them down south.


created: 2002-09-19 09:35:39
subject: <b>A little problem with the facts of this theory.</b>
body:
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the Trolloc Wars occured a 1000 years before Hawkwing. I remember Hawkwing fighting some Trollocs and he routed them once or twice so they never came south again. <br /><br />As to the theory, I think the pattern has nothing to do with it. It is part of the Dark One's grand scheme to make the borderlands seem quiet, so that the rulers would be sucked south and move their armys away from the Blight. That way the Trollocs can pour through and reap havoc realitively easily.


created: 2003-01-09 16:34:16
subject: <b>The mirror worlds show all possible realities</b>
body:
Since it is possible that trollocs defeat Seanchan if Rand stays home, then he lives that life.  But it is also possible that the Seanchan win, we just didn't see that life.<br /><br />As to the person above me:  you misinterpreted him.  He's talking about how Artur prevented the outbreak of a second Trolloc War (in theory).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 19:32:40
subject: <b>Agree with Burr</b>
body:
I agree with Burr's initial assessment.  Why would the pattern want all the Borderlanders south and give up the defensive advantages of the Borderlands, just to force the armies of the Light to have to (probably) push through the Borderlands into the Blight during or before Tarmon Gaidan.  With all the prophecy about Rand's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, it seems likely that the battle will be fought or at least concluded in the Blight.


created: 2003-06-11 15:55:11
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
Cannoli, you`re totally on the mark. {Just a minor point: isn`t it the Wheel that provides fodder for the Pattern to use?}<br /><br />Not only do I agree with you, but would go further.  The same actions of the Wheel have caused Mat to be where he is now, along with Perrin and Egwene.  Had all the main characters NOT done as they have, the World would not have a prayer. <br /><br />I have been thinking about a theory that the gathering of all these disparate armies are going to gather in Caralain Grass to fight the Final Battle against the Dark Forces--------BUT only after Rand has spilled his blood on the rocks of SG.<br /><br />This fits in perfectly with Nicola`s Foretelling<br /><br />          &quot;The great battle done but the world<br />             not done with battle&quot;<br /><br />Connoli:  a great theory!  I frequently disagree with you, but not now.<br /><br />RJ does in fact have a powerful vision.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-28 13:53:56
subject: <b>almost totally agree</b>
body:
Rather than the Pattern being the reason though, I would say that the effect is from Rand's ta'veren-ness.  Rand pulls what he needs to him.  I agree with you that he will need the borderlanders for all the same reasons you brought up.  He will need their armies and their generals/leaders to push that sliver of hope just a little deeper.  Another excellent example of the sometimes-but-not-always-the-case &quot;He needs it, he gets it&quot; ta'veren effect.<br /><br />Of course, one could argue that Rand being so strongly ta'veren is affecting the Pattern.  Then the Pattern would be pulling at the borderlanders.  But ultimately I think the point for the cause being Rand is more correct.  It's a very minor point, but I get picky sometimes.  Hehe.  <br /><br />Great theory though, here's a thumb's up!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 16:18:35
subject: <b>Bad Ash has it as I understood it</b>
body:
NT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 00:39:11
subject: <b>Rand did it</b>
body:
I also remember Rand saying he made Sulin his servant because he was sick of her trying/failing to serve others.<br /><br />Sulin was originally working for Mistress Harfor as a general palace servant not waiting on Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 12:42:01
subject: <b>Sulin became a servant to make up her toh to a gai'shain</b>
body:
Nandera says, &quot;You spoke to gai'shain as Far Dareis Mai.&quot;  &quot;I did.  we will deal with it when Rand al'tThor is safe today.&quot;  LoC, Chapter 21 To Shadar Logoth.  Rand later comments on how he hadn't seen Sulin since going to SL and remembers this conversation between Nandera and Sulin, this is all in Chapter 28 Letters.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 12:42:36
subject: <b>You have toh</b>
body:
Firstly I don't understand how you break ji'e'toh.<br /><br />Secondly you have toh towards Sulin for even suggesting something like this.<br /><br />It violates everything that is Aiel.<br /><br />Anyway another hole in your theory was that becoming a servant was not her first choice. She went to the kitchens and was turned away.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 18:55:58
subject: <b>I apologize</b>
body:
I just wanted to put something up on the Theory Post because there hadn't been a whole lot of new entries in a while.  This was a pretty crappy one to choose.<br /><br />That's a good question, how do you break ji'e'toh?  Answer:  You don't.  You live by it.  You can't break it unless you figure there is a way to &quot;break&quot; your honor.  Having toh isn't breaking it, it's just your duty to atone for the toh.  The only way to &quot;break&quot; it, I suppose, is to not live by it, but Sulin meeting her toh proves she lives by it.<br /><br />Plus, the next few pages clearly state why Sulin has toh, and even expounds on how you can gain toh to a gai'shain.<br /><br />All in all, a pretty lousy theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 22:45:12
subject: <b>Bad Ash has Toh to us for posting this</b>
body:
and Inane, well, your pretty much Gai&#8217;shain now. Don't worry, it's only a year and a day.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />No need to apologize, just because we all couldn't argue amongst ourselves endlessly, quote the book to the point of copyright infringement, or run off on wild tangents that aren't even related to the original theory, doesn&#8217;t mean it wasn&#8217;t worth mention on the theory board. Nobody has complaned about wSE pts yet at least. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 12:50:42
subject: <b>so we're all agreed it's crap,</b>
body:
but i thought I'd add that aiel don't spy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font color="silver">Your favourite place is you and me.</font></i><br /><br /><i><font color="white">Eat dirt, fascist herbivores!</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 12:27:33
subject: <b>Crap Theory, but Aiel DO spy</b>
body:
...in all KINDS of things.  They may dress it up as something else, but it's spying.<br /><br />Wise Women peeking into peoples' dreams to try to find out about them is spying.<br /><br />Aiel coming over the Dragonwall to look for the Car'a'carn is spying.<br /><br />Much of the activity around Rand is spying.<br /><br />Hey, I have nothing against spying, I'm just maintaining Aiel do it.<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-16 01:10:26
subject: <b>Aiel spies</b>
body:
When they went over the wall into Lady whatever's palace(I'm moving and am therefore WoT deprived) I don't even think they could consider that anything but spying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 22:42:32
subject: <b>one more thing...</b>
body:
I thought the Wise Ones main objective in making Aviendha stick to Rand was to make him know his blood, his own people and thus more interested in saving a larger remnant of a remnant instead of just waisting them...<br /><br />thats why they were so happy when they found out she bedded him, I believe there was a scene where Rand(?) overhears part of a conversation where Amys(?) says that Aviendha accomplished her objective far better than expected?!?<br /><br />just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Sliph<br /><br />[I just picked this name because all good ones were taken]</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 16:59:28
subject: <b>To round things out.</b>
body:
I can't believe he got wSE points for that!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 10:43:33
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
This theory is waaaaaaaaayyyyy out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 22:11:38
subject: <b>OMG</b>
body:
Omg, crap theory of the year.  Ok, whethere they spy or not, there was something else she could have done to be placed as a spy.  I don't think they would stoop to shaming a gai'shain (which, in case u forgot, is y Sulin had toh in the first place) just to insert a spy when there are much better ways to do it.  Not to mention, then all of them would have toh, Nandera and the Wise Ones included, and the Aiel are too strict with ji'e'toh to not do anything about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-23 05:15:42
subject: <b>Sulin</b>
body:
Sulin's toh doesn't have anything to do with spying, she's watching him just to guard him. Speaking to a gai'shain as a Maiden is deeply shaming to said gai'shain, and incurs loads of toh. Nandera, I believe, confronts her for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;No one tells us how to be men. We just are&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Perhaps that is why you make such a bad job of it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Let the Dragon ride again upon the winds of Time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 21:25:49
subject: <b>Sulin is not a wise one.</b>
body:
Sulin would not be spying for the wise ones because she is not a wise one. Neither is she a wise ones aprentice. She is a maiden of the spear, and as the maidens are with Rand as much as they can be, this would make spying for them in a word, stupid. Sulin doesn't really see more of rand by being a servant, she sees less, and yet she stays. Her toh is for signalling the shai gain to gather maidens, not for spying on rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 01:42:31
subject: <b>Sensing Shadowspawn No Gift at All</b>
body:
In the wheel of time RPG, bonding a warder doesn't grant the ability to sense shadowspawn.  That is a weave that the aes'sedai can perform.  That book was fully inspected and reviewed by Jordan himself, so I doubt it was an oversight.


created: 2002-09-10 01:58:02
subject: <b>Power</b>
body:
i would put it down to Rand being full of the power, or perhaps being bonded to someone who can channel the male half makes them unable to sense shadowspawn. it could even be the taint doing this...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 02:39:22
subject: <b>The One Power and the Shadow</b>
body:
This is kind of a mini theory in itself, but I believe that channelers sense shadowspawn because of their connection to the True Source. Shadowspawn were created by Aginorthrough genetic manipulation and mixing the power of the Dark One . The result was the Trollocs and Darkhounds that we know and love. <br /><br />When the Bore was first made, it was because the Aes Sedai discovered the DO's presence. This discovery I believe is attributed to the connection to the True Source. The True  Source is the power that turns the Wheel of Time which weaves the Pattern, and the Dark One as the antithesis, a destroyer, is an opposite power . This is why channelers can sense   the DO, and creatures twisted by His power.<br /><br />All this is to say that it is the Aes Sedai that sense shadowspawn. Warders get this as a fringe benifit. In either case, Rand would be able to sense shadowspawn no matter what, since he can channel. So, either the shadowspawn in SL were shielded by Sammael, the taint on SL overwhelmed the taint of the DO, or Rand was merely preoccupied. Whew, that was longer than I thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 04:25:27
subject: <b>It was in Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
I think Rands trouble in this case was that he was in Shadar Logoth. <br /><br />We are told in TDR that sensing shadowspawn is like feeling the taint so with the hightened taint feeling from being in SL he may well not have noticed the presence of the Trollocs.<br /><br />And he did have a lot on his mind with Sammael.


created: 2002-09-10 08:09:31
subject: <b>Perrin....and Gray Men</b>
body:
In Illian for the short time they (Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, Faile, and Loial) were there, they came in contact with some Gray Men. Lan and Moiraine did not sense anything, but Perrin smelled something wrong, or saw, can't remember which but still, I think that means that Shadowspawn can kind of be shielded to hide themselves from Warders and Channelers alike. So there, it has nothing really to do with whether its a bonded gift, but if these shadowspawn were all shielded. Correct me if I'm wrong.


created: 2002-09-10 11:25:19
subject: <b>Jaric, you're correct.</b>
body:
Throughout the series, there have been numerous instances where an Aes Sedai or Warder has been unable to sense shadowspawn like we're led to believe they could.  The most obvious one would be the Lan, Moiraine, &amp; Perrin's encounter with the grey man in Tear.<br /><br />On the flip side of the coin, there have been plenty of instances where Rand HAS been able to sense shadowspawn (the darkhounds in Rhuidean come to mind, as well as the Grey Man that Taim killed).<br /><br />Basically, the ability isn't consistent, and I don't believe there is enough information to form a theory about it (yet).


created: 2002-09-10 12:27:46
subject: <b>Grey men are different</b>
body:
I agree that the sensing of shadowspawn especially with regards to chanellers and warders seems inconsistent. However, I don't think the fact that Grey Men are an exception to the &quot;Channelers/Warders sense shadowspawn&quot; is meaningful because that fact, alongside their general unnoticeability is the very source of their shadowspawnness. They are assassins who are made incredibly difficult to sense - by Aes Sedai and Warders as well as by normal people. That's what they do. Plus, they are humans who have given up their souls to gain this power, and presumably the Dark One's favor, so might not technically be shadowspawn anyway in the same way as fades, trollocs, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 12:32:54
subject: <b>Te RPG is not a good source for evidence</b>
body:
While RJmay have reviewed it this instace along with others is in direct conflict with the books.  Moiraine and Lan both sense Trollocs in Emond's Field and there's no way Moiraine was channeling since she never expected Trollocs in the Two Rivers.  There's other places as well that mentions Warders can sense Shadowspawn.  <br /><br />As for the GM inncident Moiraine mentions that GM aren't Shadowspawn and therefore they can't sense them.  Right after that there is the scene with the Darkhound's prints and neither Moiraine or Lan sensed it, probably because Sammael warded it the same as the draghkar in tGH that almost kills Moiraine.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 14:44:35
subject: <b>The Taint</b>
body:
One reason that Rand maybe can't sense the Trollocs is because of the taint that destroyed Adriol overpowers his abiltity to sense Shadowspawn.


created: 2002-09-10 14:45:12
subject: <b>Rand was....</b>
body:
.....focused on Sammuel and inside the void.  Under normal circumstances Rand has been able to sense shadowspawn eg.  Grey man in Stone of Tear, Drakhar in the waste,  Grey Man in Cairhein ( Taim killed ).<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 17:05:08
subject: <b>Shadow's hiding</b>
body:
In TDR after the attack in the mountains of mist Rand comments to perrin and Min that he could have given warning but he could not tell the difference between the Taint and Shadow spawn until they were almost in the camp.  Therefore Rand has a hard time with the sensing of shadow spawn even on a good day.  Perrin felt guilty because he could have as well from the wolves.  Instead the camp wasn't woken until shadow spawn were damn near in the camp.


created: 2002-09-10 18:13:54
subject: <b>Rand has the ability</b>
body:
Like it was mentioned above, the taint is a similar feeling to that of shadowspawn, but Rand had a few times in the series sensed them well before anyone did, but was unable to tell the difference,  now that the taint is cleansed he should realize that when he is feeling the taint it will be shadowspawn,   Added to that his strength in the power, plus being bonded to three aes sedai, two of whom are among the strongest of the females,   He should be from now on be consistantly the first to sense when they are around,<br /><br />and as an afterthought,  I would assume that this a talent that would tie in closely to the use of spirit,  whether knowingly or not,   and We  have seen how srong Rand is with Spirit, (affecting everyones dreams in the beginning of TDR)  Anyone else think that spirit would have something to do with this.


created: 2002-09-10 20:42:08
subject: <b>Rand was in severe pain</b>
body:
after all, he had just gotten out of bed from his epic Fain dagger wound.<br /><br />Then, his feet were scorched by Sammael in Illian.<br /><br />Rand was hurting the whole time.  I think this is reason enough to explain why his awareness was not tops.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 09:00:47
subject: <b>The Forsaken know...</b>
body:
In tGH, &quot;Watchers&quot; (pg 332) after the Draghkar attempts to kill Moiraine in Adeleas and Vandene's garden, Adeleas asks specifically:<br /><br />' &quot;How,&quot; Adeleas demanded, &quot;could any creature of the Shadow come so close without us sensing it?&quot; '<br /><br />to which Moiraine replies: ' &quot;It was warded.&quot; '<br /><br />At the time, the Aes Sedai present attributed a warded Shadow spawn to the Black Ajah.  I think most likely it was a sending from Liandrin by orders from Ishamael at the little Darkfriend's Social held in the Prologue.  The point being Aes Sedai (and their Warders) *expect* to sense Shadow spawn, and only can't when the nasties are warded. <br /><br />Rand not sensing Trollocs could easily be the taint or his enemies (namely, the remaining Forsaken) who are well aware that if they wanna use henchbeasts to get to him, they better ward them.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Where do I sign up?


created: 2002-09-11 12:16:24
subject: <b>We have some good stuff here...</b>
body:
So I am going to put what a lot of people have alrady said into one post, and then we can put this theory to rest.<br /><br />1.) Rand has been passed out for 2 days by a nasty wound from Fain.<br /><br />2.) He's already at the point of exhaustion, but he attacks Sammael anyway, nearly looses a foot, and after holding the power for a while (which is very tiring), heads to Logoth to take it to the Forsaken.<br /><br />3.) Shadar Logoth is a nasty place, and Rand has both the male taint pulsing in him and Mashadar's poison beating in time from Fain's dagger.<br /><br />4.) Sammael likes to have a backup plan, so there is a possibilty that he had the trollocs shielded to protect himself incase Rand got to him in Illian.<br /><br />5.) Rand was completely concentrating on Sammael and exhausted to boot, and thus could have walked past a Lightfriend social and not noticed it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />And now for the proof of the opposing side:<br /><br />1.) Rand has sensed Shadowspawn before he was even bonded.<br /><br />2.) Lan and Aes Sedai have insisted that Gaiden can sense Shadowspawn.<br /><br />3.) We can assume the only reason Rand is alive is because he was bonded.... It is said a Warder can live through wounds normal men cannot, and this probably helped keep him alive through the Fain Dagger wound. If he got this part of the bond, why didn't he get the rest.<br /><br />4.) Unless it's printed in one of the existing 9 books, Glimmers, New Spring, or something else Jordan has printed like &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghoul&quot;, it can't be used as evidence. Thus the RPG book doesn't fly. And I don't even fully trust the BWB, or some of Jordan's chat transcripts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think we can see from this that Rand probably gets all the advantages to some degree or another of the Warder bond.... but who can say what Alanna (or his other 3 hoes) get from it.


created: 2002-09-11 16:15:15
subject: <b>Comment on a comment-the RPG is WRONG</b>
body:
In the RPG, it states that a Warder can only be bonded by one person, and attempts to bond an already bonded Warder will not work.  This is obviously false, as seen in WH, released a year before the RPG (so we can't say Jordan changed his mind-though evidence does seem to point that way, as I recall Elayne's motive for wanting to bond Rand had been to have something of him that was all hers even if she had to share him in other ways).  The RPG also describes &quot;sharing strength&quot; as borrowing hit points from the Warder.  The only time we've seen an Aes Sedai take strength from her Warder was Elayne when she was holding the gateway during the Seanchan attack.  She borrowed Birgitte's strength despite the fact that Birgitte had been wounded and Elayne hadn't (in game terms, Birgitte would have lost hit points and even though no one had touched her, Elayne would have been taking more hit points away from her to ease her own exhaustion), in fact, until the gateway blew up, Elayne was unwounded, only extremely tired.  As a side note on Elayne, a few characters have some special ability called Balance with varying numbers attached to it, but Elayne, the (briefly) professional tightrope walker has not a trace of this talent.<br /><br />I also don't understand the magic system as explained in the book, but it seems like a crock-who cares what &quot;level&quot; you're at?  The only limit on how often you do things in the real books is how far you can push yourself before getting exhausted.  As far as I can tell by the RPG's rules, Nynaeve is more powerful than Rand, when the one time they are channeling together, she caves first, despite Rand actually doing the channeling, and Nynaeve just sitting there.  Also, when Egwene and Elayne faced Rand, they were more likely to be at a higher &quot;level&quot; since they had actually been trained, while Rand had no clue.  He did have more raw strength than the two of them combined. Under the RPG's rules, he wouldn't be ble to fight two Accepted with his low amount of &quot;experience.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 18:23:02
subject: <b>Reaching</b>
body:
Sounds like everyone is reaching to explain Rand's loss of sensing trollocs and the like. I remember reading that he looses this ability when he gets bonded, against his will, Allana has made a few comments about not being able to control him to some degree or another and attributes it to that, so maybe because she violated him there are some side effects....in any case we'll never know untill RJ lets us in on it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 19:40:39
subject: <b>ummm not quite.</b>
body:
For those of you who forget the example given has Rand in Shadar Logoth.  A place inherently evil.  He can't feel the trollocs because the very air feels evil.<br />the very pebbles according ot RJ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 23:10:35
subject: <b>it was shadar logoth</b>
body:
ok. we know rand can sense shadowspawn anyway because he is a channeler. he sensed the darkhound in rhuiden. even if he didn't get this ability from the bond he has it. maybe shadar logoth was messing with this. it does fight the darkone's evil after all. maybe it squashed what could be sensed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ignorance is not just bliss, it is a house that i live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />                                 -Wayne Brady<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 08:01:04
subject: <b>o...k</b>
body:
he &quot;runs&quot; into the shadow spawn because he is preoccupied or SL's taint, not because he can't normally sense them.  in earlier books while rand is in the wastes he senses the draghar(SP) and the dark hounds so he can obviously sense shadow spawn.<br /><br />if you were fighting someone that can burn you to ash wouldn't you be preoccupied too?


created: 2002-09-15 11:28:45
subject: <b>channlers have it anyway</b>
body:
he would not be in need of any bond to sense them if he were clm etc. In TDR he senses trollocs coming to the cmp (unless I miss my guess... it might have been later on) I would say Sammael was to blame.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 01:03:32
subject: <b>Gray Men</b>
body:
I think that it was just being in SD, with the new wound from Fain and the taint, plus his tiredness and injuries.<br /><br />Also, to clear things up, Moiraine, I don't remember where, actually says that Gray Men can't be sensed by Warders/Aes Sedai, because they are people who have given their souls to the shadow, but they aren't shadowspawn. This also means that the ability to sense shadowspawn isn't as inconsistent as Daemione stated, but Gray men can't be sensed, because they aren't shadowspawn, and any other time that shadowspawn have been seen and not sensed they were most likely warded since they were sent by a Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 14:06:42
subject: <b>the dragkhar that attacked Moiraine was warded...</b>
body:
she didn't sense it, and we KNOW that she can sense shadowspawn.  Anyway, I think Rand was preoccupied, among other things, and just didn't notice the shadowspawn, or the taint of SL was overwhelming him, etc...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-15 00:09:18
subject: <b>Wheel of Time RPG</b>
body:
I keep reading people who quote the RPG as evidence for various theories, and people who discount the RPG because it contradicts the books.  Now I have never looked at the RPG, but I have experience with RPG's in genereal dating back to about the second grade.  What some people can't seem to remember is that roleplaying games have rules in them to keep the game balanced and &quot;fair&quot;.  I know games and gamers.  Some of the things in the books that are possible but forbidden, because they are evil or dangerous, would give big advantages to players in the game, and gamers wouldn't care if they were evil or dangerous, they would do them for the advantage.  Now I'm not bashing power gamers, I am one myself.  But game designers have to make the game balanced or it would be boring.<br /><br />On the other hand, the only rule in fiction is to write a good story.  And since the author &quot;gamemaster&quot; controls ALL the characters, no character is going to do anything to unbalance the story.  My point is that in books, things are done that COULD NOT be allowed in a roleplaying game based on the book.<br /><br />So while I will use game rules as a resource regarding the story, obviously if something contradicts the book, the book overrules the game.<br /><br />So when you start using the RPG to justify your theories, remember that it was written with game balance in mind, not strict adherence to the novels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Vengeance is Mine,&quot; sayeth the Lord.  I'm just here to arrange the meeting.<br />This is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 19:05:14
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
i agree that being able to channel blocks the warder of getting the gifts. in wot rpg, the requirements r that u must bond a NON-CHANNELING person. Else, wouldnt the aes seadi just bond each other?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-10 09:11:42
subject: <b>They wouldn't bond each other because...</b>
body:
...firstly, bonding women is against tradition, secondly, they wouldn't trust each other to hold each others bond. Remember, until Alanna bonded Rand, they didn't know that you couldn't compel a channeling warder.


created: 2003-07-04 21:59:16
subject: <b>I dunno if this was said or not...</b>
body:
He can sense Shadowspawn, he didn't because he was too worried in finding Sammael.  In the third book when Trollocs attack the camp Rand states that he could sense them, and tried to do something with the power before they came too close, but only set tree's on fire.


created: 2004-05-20 12:17:22
subject: <b>Shadar Logoth, that place is full of evil</b>
body:
I agree with those who wrote before me that being in Shadar Logoth may have flawed Rand's perception of evil, being surrounded by so much evil. Even without considering what Saidin can do to this ability or if Alanna could have granted it to him..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Lady Isa</font><br /><br /><font color="pink">nominated WoTboard's Moiraine AND Mesaana</font><br /><font color="blue">Member of the Fearsome Four</font><br /><font color="crimson">Bonded to Sidious and Phil</font><br /><font color="green">Cindy is one <i>Green</i> Redneck</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <font color="violet"><b>July 12th 2008</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 19:49:14
subject: <b>I would agree with lira...</b>
body:
I think it's much more likely that he didn't gain the benefits of being a Warder because he hadn't accepted the bond.  Note, in WH (I think, either WH or CoT), Rand thinks so: &quot;He breathed, and he was bonded to her, the bond with Alanna had never been this way.&quot;  He had accepted the bond with Elayne, Aviendha, and Min, and so may have gained the positive effects of the bond.  May have.  I haven't seen any indication that he has, but the above quote shows that the bonds are different.


created: 2005-05-23 00:51:16
subject: <b>Rand's gift is stronger</b>
body:
Rand's gift of sensing shadowsporn actually grew stronger after Alanna bonded him. In TDR Lan said &quot;Their taint of evil is not strong enough for either Moiraine or me to sense. Gray Men have walked past a hundred guards without being noticed, and Warders among them.&quot; So, obviously Gray Men can usually get past the Aes Sedai can sense shadowspawn problem fairly easily. Before the bonding, Rand never senses Grey Men. He didnt  sense them the night of the shdowspawn attack in Tear until he saw them over Lanfear's shoulder. After Alanna bonds Rand though, Lews Therin seems to sense the grey man coming. Since Rand is preocupied with his other thoughts, he doesn't understand Lews Therin's cryptic warning &quot;Death comes&quot;, until the grey man actually enters the room. When he finally realises what it is he has been sensing he attacks and Taim kills it.  Whether or not you believe Lews Therin is real, it was his warning that made Rand pay attention, so when he did notice the taint, he could do something about it. In Sadar Logoth he had the same problem, he was preocupied with his injuries, his plan to kill Sammael, the resonnance of the to evils in the city, what Min and Cadsuane would say when they heard.... Well he had a lot on his mind. The theories that point to the  mountains in TDR though, were Rand's inexperience with the taints of the saidin and the shadowspawn that stopped him giving warning. He never has that problem again. In conclusion, Rand's ability to sense shadowspawn has increased since Alanna bonded him.... so long as he is paying attention. The real question should be whether the second bonding has changed it again.


created: 2002-09-10 20:07:54
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Demandred is supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand.  He's apparently &quot;stumbling around hoping to bump into him.&quot;  There are a lot of places he could be, but the Seanchan continent isn't one of them.<br /><br /><br />This has been my lucky week for first postings on new theories... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />    -OA


created: 2002-09-10 20:21:08
subject: <b>I will put one passage I located here:</b>
body:
A while back, I spent some effort looking for examples of Demmy among the Seanchan.  Unlike others, I personally believe that Seanchan is one of the best places for Demmy to have been.  In another post, I will explain why.<br /><br />I, personally, did not locate any really good Demmy suspects among the Seanchan.  The only one that even raised any alarms was Elbar, Suroth's henchman.  However, I do not believe Elbar is Demmy, as he allowed Min to knife him in TGH.  <br /><br />But, for your personal interest, I will detail an account of Elbar on this BB post. Here goes.<br /><br /><br />TGH<br />In chp. 40 we see another physical description of Elbar, pg 564, &quot;and the bareheaded soldier came with them. He did not put a hand near the sword hilt sticking up above his shoulder, and he wore a casual smile, but Egwene watched him narrowly... The hook-nosed man suddenly seized Min and Elayne by the scruffs of their necks, and the next instant everything seemed to happen at once. The man yelled a curse.&quot;<br /><br />After this we see Min and Elayne's escape attempt- the girls channel, and Min knifes Elbar in the hand.<br /><br />on pg. 568, we get a positive ID of the hook-nosed man, &quot;Elbar, recall them (the Seanchan pursuers).&quot;<br /><br />Interestingly, during this time Suroth is talking quite freely about &quot;her great master&quot; and about how Turak doesn't know she is gone. From Suroth's words, I am assuming that Elbar is very likely also a darkfriend, especially due to the authority that Suroth gives him.<br /><br />ACOS <br />We see a cold,tall, dark, hook-nosed officer named Eblar take Morgase and her party and bring them to Suroth in the Niall's old office. Eblar brings Morgase to the apartment with a guard of several soldiers. When he gets there, the hook nosed officer &quot;seeized the back of Morgase's neck and bore her down prostrate beside him... she saw him kiss the floor.&quot;<br /><br />'Release her, Elbar. The Queen of Andor is not to be treated so.&quot;<br /><br />Eblar begged forgiveness, and Suroth said &quot;Perhaps when ou are punished. Report yourself now. Leave me! Go!&quot;<br /><br />Pg. 549 we see from Morgase's PoV-<br /><br />&quot;Eblar bowed on his knees, then rose smoothly, backing away from through the door. For the first time Morgase realized none of the other soldiers had followed them in. She (Morgase)realized something else as well He (Elbar) gave her one final glance before he vanished, and instead of flickering resentment for the one who had caused his punishment(Suroth), he...considered. There would be no punishment; the entire exchange had been arranged beforehand.&quot;<br /><br /><br />My analysis:<br /><br />While I don't think we can read too much into this, I have never seen anyone bring this passage up for discussion. It is quite interesting.<br /><br />Basically, we see a dark, tall, hawk-nosed man of some authority arrive to escort Morgase. I do not want to jump to conclusions, but I cannot help but notice the similarities in physical features between Eblar and Demandred. Seriously, how many characters in the Wheel of Time have these features?? How many times is RJ trying to give us a false trail to Demandred?? Basically alot.<br /><br />However, Eblar's case is quite interesting. Eblar brings an escort of soldiers to Niall's appartments. The soldiers are gone when Eblar leaves. This in itself doesn't say too much.<br />But Morgase found it notable for some reason.<br /><br />The point I find interesting is the set-up meeting. Eblar is clearly a man of some power and authority- we can see this by the way that he &quot;considered&quot; Morgase as he left the room. Obviously, Eblar wasn't really wasn't being punished- and the whole encounter between him and Suroth was set-up for some reason.<br /><br />I am not sure exactly why this was set up like this. Perhaps Suroth wasnted to impress her authority and control on Morgase indirectly, rather than insult Morgase by commanding her to bow to her.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 20:33:04
subject: <b>Demmy and the Seanchan</b>
body:
Good theory.  I believe that the quotes you provided could be worked into a much larger theory about Demandred being in Seanchan.  The idea is actually quite reasonable when one analyzes the issue deeply.  <br /><br />Seanchan is not a small country, it is a complete continent.  The guide even says that Seanchan is bigger than the Westlands, the Waste, and Shara combined.  Plus, the brunt of the Seanchan forces are in two places: Seanchan and the Westlands.<br /><br />Semiranath just recently arrived in the westlands. She had to remain in Seanchan and develop herself with Tuon for some time. Even if Tuon had been at Falme, Semirhage would have had her time severely restricted as Tuon's truth speaker.<br /><br />So who was to direct the forces in the Westlands? I believe it was Demandred. It makes sense that Semi and Demmy would have at least worked in a loose alliance, especially since they had the pact not to kill each other.<br /><br />Demandred organized much of the chaos that allowed for the Seanchan invasion to come so quickly. He helped keep the Tarboners and Arad people at war, he helped instigate the Prophet, and he helped in removing Pedron Niall and the Whitecloaks.<br /><br />This is what I think.<br /><br />I personally, think that the one forsaken in one country formula just doesn't work with the Seanchan, especially since Semirhage had so many demands placed on her time (for example, all the meetings she was missing).<br />Plus, Semirhage is not a general (at least I don't think she was). Demandred could fill in the generalling. Seanchan is just too big too wield by one forsaken alone, and I think we will soon see how big a force it really is.<br /><br />As for the ending of LoC, when Demandred said, &quot;Aren't you pleased&quot; to the Great One, I think he may have been referring to the events that were taking place with the Seanchan invasion, as well as with the chaos that was seeded by Dumai's Wells (Demmy afterall did have a command of many of the asha'man there).<br /><br />So, what I personally think, is that Demmy is involved with Seanchan, and that is one of the reasons RJ has kept it a mystery so long. He wants to suprise us. And it could be a real surprise, because the Seanchan haven't become that involved in the story yet. But with the Tuon, Mat crossover, I think we will be getting more and more hints.<br /><br />Finally, in one of Ciel's theories, Ciel speculated that the quote about Demmy watching Rand, could have many different interpretations.  One such interpretation of Demmy watching Rand, could be for Demmy to keep an eye on Rand's military forces.  This is actually a great idea, and it makes perfect sense. There are many df spies that can keep an eye on where Rand is, but what about Rand's troops?  Who has the better expertise in spying on armies than Demmy himself?<br /><br />Therefore, the quote about Demmy spying on Rand, may not be that useful in actually locating the physical presence of Demandred.  Also, in WH, we saw how Demmy had kept a close tab on all the places that Rand had been.  This seems to me as if Demmy was using a network of spies, rather than watching Rand himself.  Because the only person who went with Rand was Min.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 23:36:57
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
This is probably the best theory I've seen concerning the location of Demandred.  I remember somewhere Graendal saying something about knowing that activities in the south were Demmy's work.  The Seanchan have only been taking over the South so far.  Two thumbs up on the theory.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 02:05:36
subject: <b>Not the Seeker</b>
body:
He can't be the Seeker after Egeanin because we've had a PoV from him and he definitely isn't Demmy, he's a Seanchan. He almost got caught by Egeanin because he broke some Taraboner's arm - he was thinking about how disgusting and low-life it was that the nobles didn't have the dignity to commit suicide when they were reduced to penury. In Seanchan terms. He isn't Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 13:29:30
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
That's true Ruriha Sedai, I was just throwing that part out there because I think that's the only Seeker we've met so far. It's the only one I can recall.


created: 2002-09-11 16:39:40
subject: <b>this is one of the best Demandred theories</b>
body:
I still think Demmy might by among the Saldaean army though, hiding as Tumad (sp?).  Even in the grip of a heat wave across the land, northern Saldaea might be cool, if not cold.<br /><br />But the Saldaean army might have been traveling south by that point.  I'd have to re-read to get it straight.


created: 2002-09-11 23:09:33
subject: <b>alternative location</b>
body:
Although you mention the velvet clock being a source of warmth two thoughts came to mind....<br /><br />1) the boarderlands were also reported to be freezing the spring (tEoTW) before and no winter was reported making the upper hills a distinct possibility.  This could be due to the weakening of the boarder towers allowing for another Malkari invasion situation<br /><br />2) Carithian (sp?) due to the comment made about the foregaters wearing the castoff clothes of the nobels...silks and velvets I belive.  Where else would a source of chaos be better placed than in Carithian (sp?) with all the confusion going on with the rebels, Rand, Andor, the Aiel, Illian, Tear, and Ogier walkout.<br /><br />Just a thought....


created: 2002-09-12 12:39:20
subject: <b>I don't agree</b>
body:
Fair enough, he could be masquerading as a Seanchan. But that doesn't square with Graendels words to Demandred, when they learn Rand's attempting to cleanse saidin of the taint: &quot;And you've been hoping to blunder into him!&quot;.<br /><br />As for the cloak idea, the words &quot;clutching&quot; and &quot;straws&quot; spring to mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 13:45:07
subject: <b>Blundering possibility</b>
body:
Graendal could mean his seanchan armies trying to blunder into Rand, not just the man himself. <br /><br />The Borderlands as well are supposed to be in an unnatural season at this point of the story. It's hot everywhere in Randland. I don't think Demandred would be hiding among refugees.


created: 2002-09-12 16:22:09
subject: <b>I dont think so.</b>
body:
Well, maybe He just visits Semi. Who know?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 18:09:52
subject: <b>No!</b>
body:
Sorry but I don't buy this theory.  Demmy was wearing a cloak SG because he knows its cold, not because he's in Seanchan.  If you recall soon after his trip to SG he meets Geandal, Semmy and Messana to issue orders.  When he arrives via a gateway he is describe as wearing a Gray suit.  So what why not a coat?  <br /><br />Demmy is not in Seachan! He is in the Westlands and I will locate him before the next book.  Actually I think we have found him I'm just trying to find some more proof to back it up.<br /><br />I will ask you guys for help though.  I'm trying to cross off Einor Saren.  Please provide me with something concrete that goes against him being Demandred so I can cross him off the list.  If you aren't aware, he is a Whitecloak questioner that has the same physical description as Demmy. He is also responsible for hundreds of innocent casualties in Tarabon.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 14:51:36
subject: <b>Good theory, but...</b>
body:
I don't think so. I also think that he just knew it would be cold at Shayol Ghul. We've heard time and time again that ignoring the temperature doesn't mean it won't affect you physically. After all, we didn't see Elayne running around naked in the winter...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 20:36:39
subject: <b>Haste</b>
body:
A question; Do you think ANYONE would hesitate or dally when the Dark One summons them? I think not. Demandred didn't have time to don a cloak unless wishing to incur the Great Lord's wrath, he had it on when he made haste to Shayol Ghul. On his way to the meeting between the Forsaken he wanted to keep them from any clues of his possible where abouts therefore ditching the velvet cloak before arriving at the gathering, this being the reason for his tardiness. Also, Columbo, do you know the difference between a 'coat' and a 'cloak'?


created: 2002-09-14 00:50:29
subject: <b>fur</b>
body:
I caught this cloak comment and used it to further my idea that Demmy is with the borderland armies, specifically in Saldaea.  (Quick clarification:  I have many ideas about Demmy, many contradictory, none I am sure are true) We have heard many times about Saldaean furs.  Also, if Demmy is involved with Mazrim Taim, this fits.  Later in this same passage Demmy refers to the raids stopping in the borderlands many many times.  I felt this was significant.  I also felt that Demmy's tone during these passages was almost gloating.  As if the raids stopping were because he had taken over the area and the DO stopped the raids for his benefit.  <br /><br />However, none of this squares with the events down south comment.  However, one must remember that Sammael then spoke of proxies.  So of course, Demmy doesn't have to actually be in the south.  If this theory is correct, I beleive that Demmy was involved with many &quot;side projects&quot;, possibly Taim, the prophet, etc. while building his forces in the Borderlands.<br /><br />Furthermore, whilst rumours we know are connected to Forsaken involvement other places are swirling, we also keep hearing about Saldaea<br /><br />When looking for Demmy it is important to think about the story as a novel.  Demmy is obviously a character for a later plot line as we have not seen much of him.  The borderlanders are as well.   <br /><br /><br />Or he could just be Mazrim Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 02:19:44
subject: <b>to colombo:</b>
body:
&quot;Demmy is not in Seachan! He is in the Westlands and I will locate him before the next book. Actually I think we have found him I'm just trying to find some more proof to back it up.&quot;<br /><br />Good luck.  You still have a lot of older ideas to publish first.  Such as your, where is the other male access key theory.  <br /><br /><br />&quot;I will ask you guys for help though. I'm trying to cross off Einor Saren. Please provide me with something concrete that goes against him being Demandred so I can cross him off the list. If you aren't aware, he is a Whitecloak questioner that has the same physical description as Demmy. He is also responsible for hundreds of innocent casualties in Tarabon.&quot;<br /><br />Einor Saren will be quite difficult to cross off your list.  I can think of no strong reason to cross him off.  Especially now that Glimmers gave us that little mysterious stink line.  This has many of us thinking that a gateway was formed from the blight.  In addition, he was also seen near Asunawa before Niall was assasinated. <br /><br /><br />By the way, what exactly is velvet anyway??  Someone said that he thought Demmy was in the Borderlands, because Saldaea was noted for its furs.  But is velvet made from animal fur or plant fabric?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 02:29:09
subject: <b>A Warm Front</b>
body:
Wotenslave, remember the entire Westlands is in a perpetual heating trend. Even the Borderlands are unusually hot for this time of year as is everywhere else in Randland. I thought the cloak pointed to the Borderlands too, but then this warm front was pointed out to me by my friend. I agree on the proxies point, although I'd have to reverse it saying Demandred's proxies are messing around in the Borderlands as well as other whereabouts in the Westland.<br /><br />Possible tags:<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Tied up like Cabriana by Semirhage <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Collared like Moghedien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Under Halima's influence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-14 08:09:43
subject: <b>Velvet</b>
body:
The cloak of which you speak is only fur-lined velvet. Velvet is not exactly a material built for warmth. And a fur lining is nothing more than a stylish addition. This tells us that it was probably more of fashion thing than something built for warmth. the man.<br /><br />Wool, or fur, or some material that would retain warmth, would look suspicious but velvet, really doesn't strike me that way.<br /><br />***<br /><br />Also, in regard to the &quot;proxy&quot; issue. One would wonder why Demandred was given a specific &quot;charge&quot;-type relationship with Rand, if he only has spies on the man. Everyone is spying on Rand. Moridin admits to having spies on Rand in tPoD. One would wonder why Demandred is singled in that regard, unless he were near Rand in person.


created: 2002-09-15 18:50:58
subject: <b>spot of tea</b>
body:
dem's visit to seanchan could be put down to something as simple as him popping by to have a spot of tea and a bit of a plot with his known ally semi. maybe he was helping her to insinuate herself into seanchan high society in a less obvious way than torturing everyone until they agreed <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-15 22:50:23
subject: <b>A Question of Construction</b>
body:
Tel Janin, you're thinking of trim, not lining. Something lined with another material basically has a coating of that material. A silk lined coat means it has silk on the inside of the coat and another material making up the outside. A trimmed coat would have the material only on the ends of the coat or near the ends, or borders of the article of clothing. Such as 'her dress was trimmed with small blue flowers'.


created: 2002-09-16 17:44:06
subject: <b>Bac et Ydral.....</b>
body:
First to answer your question.  Yes I do know the difference between a cloak and a coat.  I have a couple questions for you Bac et Ydral.<br />1. Please tell me why you think Demmy is using proxies in the borderlands?<br />2.Who are you exactly? and the reason I 'm interested is you sound alot like Vashti.  <br />3. Demmy was in haste in going to SG and thats why he gave himself away?hahahahahah....come on you can do better than that.  Tell me what made you think he was in haste.<br /><br />Take your time Bac et Ydral......I look forward to your response as I'm interested in Demmy's work in the borderlands.  Although I think its just wishful thinking on your part, isn't it?<br /><br />Matrimony Cauthon....are you also using a new name.  You do remind me of one Three in a Boat.  Three in a Boat stopped posting when you started and I'm willing to bet Matrimony Cauthon and Three in a boat are one and the same.<br /><br />As to who has the second male access key maybe I'll hang to it awhile longer.  And thanks for all your help with Einor Saren. The evidense you provided was priceless.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 19:41:28
subject: <b>Where is 3 in a Boat anyway?</b>
body:
I miss his posts.  No, I am actually not 3 in a Boat.  He hasn't been around much lately.  I miss him and Dom.<br /><br />To Columbo:<br /><br />One more important point about Einor Serene.  Asunawa was seen with a basic training book of whitecloaks in Glimmers.  It has been suggested that this is because Asunawa is not actually a whitecloak.  However, from one of Asunawa's POV (it's in the FAQ somewhere) we know that he is not a forsaken. <br /><br />However, Sarene is still completely up in the air.  If the stench and the basic training book are comined, one can surmise that Asunawa might be one of Demmy's proxies, and that Demmy might be visited the WC's occasionally as Sarene.    Of course, that theory has nothing but tangential points to support it.  <br /><br />Sarene, however, did do a good job of cleaning out Almoth Plain for the Seanchan invasian.  I have personally believed that Demmy might be acting with the Seanchan, but that he might have used Serene (or actually been Serene) to help his endgoal of bringing in the Seanchan invasian.<br /><br />The same thing can be said about Niall's assasination (wasn't he assasinated in LoC?)  Taking out Niall helped spread out the Seanchan invasian that much quicker.  <br /><br />Graendal's part of the whole chaos plan might have been to manipulate Ituralde, and help to keep the Tarabon and Domani forces from creating a resistance.<br /><br />We know that Ishmael has been succesfully manipulating the Domani and Taraboners for years.  He even helped to break up the 4th compact. (or was it the 5th).  I believe it was this compact that the Aes Sedai ambassador (what is her name?) said was her only major failure.  <br /><br />Ishmael was also highly responsible for getting Artur Hawkwing to send his armies to Seanchan, and later to help create the return.<br />Ishy clearly had a plan in mind for the Seanchan.<br /><br />I believe that in LoC, Ishy was involved, behind the scenes, in helping to setup the 'chaos' plan.  He gave everyone a little assignment, and Demmy's was to help make way for the Seanchan return, thus helping to further divide the world against itself.  Of course, I think Demmy threw in a couple extra flourishes such as manipulating the Dragonsworn, and getting a hand in Rand's Black Tower project.  <br /><br />If anything, Demmy seems to be all over the place.  RJ is clearly playing a game with us, giving us half-clues and physical descriptions of Demmy look-a-likes.  I have compared it to Where's Waldo, especially the puzzle where everyone looks like Waldo.<br /><br />I believe that Demmy is acting in many different places concurently, and that we can't pin his identity to any one person.  I think he is a bit like Lanfear, from the POV that he gets around and has many different identities.  Clearly Demmy has a skill at spying (just look at how quickly he tracked where Rand was in the beginning of WH).  But this goes to say that he has df networks in many places.  I think it will be all but impossible to isolate Demmy to one person or place.  He is not Sammael afterall.  Demmy is the last surving male Forsaken, and he knows it.  The thing that killed most of the males, was their prominence of position and their boldness to confront Rand.  I think Demmy is smart even to avoid that same snare.  <br /><br />By the way, Columbo:  Are you Green Gaidin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 19:47:02
subject: <b>Mind of My Own</b>
body:
First off, I am not Vashti, my name is much more creative. Just because multiple people doubt you Columbo doesn't mean they're all the same person. We have minds of our own.<br /><br />Secondly, I'm not positive Demandred is using proxies in the Borderlands, but as far as I'm concerned there's something amiss in the Borderlands. The people of Fal Dara, Saldea, Shienar, ect. do not fight amongst themselves yet rumor of skirmishes have been mentioned. I feel one of the forsaken is stirring up trouble in the lands below the Blight.<br /><br />Yes man, haste. As I said, I doubt any of the Chosen would mess around when summoned by The Great Lord. He demands respect and obedience, not laziness. He didn't give himself away to anyone regardless. Jordan dropped in a VERY subtle hint and seemingly an excellent hidden clue since it's not been mentioned on these boards until now as far as I can see. No solid proof can be given for my theory, though neither for yours. We'll see who is right, if either of us are, when Jordan finally reveals Demandred's identity and location.


created: 2002-09-16 21:48:34
subject: <b>Not Demmy....</b>
body:
the fighting in Shineir has to do with Rand being the Dragon reborn and nothing to do with The Mandred.  When have the Forsaken shown 100% loyalty to the DO when not in his presence?  The velvet cloak wasn't mentioned before because everyone knows that Demmy knows its colder than a #$#$%%$#@# at SG.  It doesn't mean, like you seem to think? that Demmy was out for a walk in Seanchen and was summoned and opened a gateway on the spot to SG.<br /><br />Also in LOC Demmy sees Elayne for the first time in the world of dreams.  If you remember the scene, thats fine, if you don't, its a refresher.  It means that Elayne and Demmy haven't run into each other to this point unless unknowingly.<br /><br />No I'm not GG but I like the way he thinks.  Looks like Einor Saren stays on the list.  I have always thought the same way about Demmy being more than one guise.  Lanfear hints at it in book 4.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 01:06:50
subject: <b>Heard my name called and thought I'd stop by.</b>
body:
Actually, I DID catch this and discussed it with Columbo (not me<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) about two months or so ago. We discounted it, though, because of the cold at SG and the fact that RJ said we can figure out who Demmy is by now. Since we have not seen anyone even REMOTLEY suspicious in the Seanchan army (Demmy would not take orders from Suroth in a million Ages), that can be discounted. Since we have not seen anyone matching Demmy's description IN Seanchan, that's out, too. <br /><br />I'm going with Columbo on this one (big surprise ;D) I'm thinking Eianor Saren due to there not being aNY refutable evidence on him personally and the fact that Sammael's comments can be interperated as the Whitecloaks moving across Altara (toward Illian) in FoH.<br /><br />BTW, Matrimony, you DO sound alot like 3iaB. Huh. I never thought about that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 08:58:36
subject: <b>on the slopes</b>
body:
I love how some are so eager to shoot holes in good theories to support their own. The author here points out a great clue as to where Demmy was when the DO summoned him. A heatwave covering all the westlands and Demmy wearing a Fur lined cloak would make him stand out in a crowd anywhere in that land, especially when everyone else are wearing light dust cloaks. Yes, it is cold on the slopes of SG, and I guess if he was expecting to stand out there for a week or so the cold might begin to affect him. OTOH, he is going inside SG where it's quite a bit warmer. In fact, if he was going to take the time to grab something to wear, he should have grabbed a pair of knee pads to stop the blistering heat. The fact that he shows up later at the meeting with the other Chosen W/O the cloak suggests that he took the time to dispose of it to hide his whereabouts from them. Now, as to Sammy's comments about &quot;events to the south&quot;, these were made when he was visiting Graendal in Arad Doman. When I look at a map of Randland, I see Almoth Plain, and Tarabon just south of there, with Amadicia to the southeast.The other important part of the quote was about his &quot;lackey's can carve out what they want, as long as they steer clear of me&quot;.We know Niall has been trying to take pieces of Altara and extend the borders into Tarabon, so this could mean the WC. But now we also learn in the prologue of LOC, thru Niall's message pigeons, that the Seanchan are in Tarabon, doing a little carving of their own. Coincidence? I'm sure of one thing. RJ does not want to give away Demmys' location easily, and IMO, he is not staying anywhere too long. There is this to consider, there are about 9,000 WC. Enough to cause trouble and stir the pot, but not enough for much more, not when you start looking at the size of the Borderland Armies{200,000+},Aiel nation{500,000?},and the Seanchan {?},which is larger in size than all the westland, waste, and Shara together. If I was Demmy, I might use the WC, but I would sure want a few more soldiers, channelers, etc. behind me if I was going to try anything more than stirring the anthill. Blundering into Rand, or keeping an eye on him, pretty much precludes Demmy from tying himself down anywhere, for any length of time, no matter who he might be posing as. I hope that shines a little light on the subject.{HEHE}<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 16:57:42
subject: <b>hahahaha</b>
body:
Are you suggesting that when Sammy made his comment that there were only 9000 whitecloaks?  I don't think so.  Maybe now that they've been disbanded but not in LOC.  In LOC when Sammy makes his comment about Demmy's proxies the Whitecloaks are a force to reckon with.  It is not until much later and after the Seanchen scatter them that they become less of a threat.<br /><br />I have also believed the Demandred is in more than one cookie jar.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 07:27:23
subject: <b>To Colombo</b>
body:
I wasn't suggesting that at all. What I was suggesting was that PEDRON NIALL was doing the carving. And from the POVs we have of Niall, he isn't Demmy and he doesn't appear to be under the thrall of compulsion either.  For myself, I always thought our first Demmy sighting was the peddler Mil Tesen in the LOC prologue, who brings the rumor of Morgases' death directly to Gawyn. He is somewhere between Carhein and TV, WALKING, leading a mule, yet he has news all the way from Camelyn. He makes a comment about how good trading with the Aiel is, and Gawyn wonders to himself why he is heading away from such good trade. The end result of the news sets Gawyn hard against Rand, when Gawyn later ends up in a position to help Rand but won't, and surely sets up later conflict. Just a little more chaos to stir the pot. A little more light in the night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 14:05:05
subject: <b>Light</b>
body:
I never ever suggested that Naill is Demmy or is being compulsed.  I believe that Naill is to strong will to be compulsed.  I also thought that the peddler was out of place.  In the middle of noware and with all the latest gossip.  And as you pointed out with the right gossip to change Gawyns oppinion of Rand 180 deg..<br /><br />Demmy as well as Fain still used the Whitecloaks to work against Rands plans.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-20 02:39:37
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
For my next possible Chosen sighting, check under &quot;Why is Tuon Smiling&quot;  Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-22 11:50:42
subject: <b>And who says the Forsaken are omniscient</b>
body:
So Sammy believes that Demi's lackeys are working in the South. Ariel Sharon believes that Yasser Arafat is personally ordering suicide bombers. George W. Bush believes that Osama orders every terrorist attack in the world.<br /><br />They're as fallible as anyone else, remember the Forsaken lost Rand in Winter's Heart. It's a reasonable stretch of the imagination that paranoid Sammael saw Forsaken hands in everything happening around him. It is quite possible that people can do evil without needed some mega-evil creature prompting them.<br /><br />FLAME ON<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-22 12:51:30
subject: <b>Follow the Leader</b>
body:
W/O going into politics, some are easily led, some will follow any lead, some are led away kicking and screaming, and some are actually leaders. Just as some see things that aren't there, some see nothing when its right under their nose. Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 16:38:03
subject: <b>Lightman</b>
body:
In WOT everything is something......<br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-16 17:42:22
subject: <b>I know, I know.. He's all of them!</b>
body:
I really can't see a reason why Dem (as good at traveling<br />as he is) can't be most of people mentioned above.  It <br />would also fit with proxy theories (proxy being one higher<br />in standing in the world, at least as other people see it).<br /><br />1. Saren.  Proxy: Asunawa.<br />2. Elbar.  Proxy: Suroth<br />3. Someone with Dragonsworn  Proxy: Masema<br />4. Saldaean soldier.  Proxy: Borderland armies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />= Moerien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />=<br />


created: 2002-11-16 06:42:52
subject: <b>Thumbs up Moerien</b>
body:
I agree that Demandred is probably using several characters and controlling various factions. <br /><br />Black Tower : Controlling the DF Ashaman ,but not as Taim or any other present there.<br /><br />Masema: Probably influencing the Prophet from behind the scenes.<br /><br />Whitecloaks: Well, this I don&#180;t agree on. Fain and the Forsaken just don&#180;t mix. And I don&#180;t think the Seanchan needed any help from the inside to take Amadicia. They are many enough.<br /><br />Seanchan: This is the most important one. Eblar ( or whatshisname ) is a good theory. Someone has to be telling Suroth what to do.<br /><br />I you look back to the end of TEOTW and beginning of TGH the Forsaken are just loosed again upon the world. Ishamael of course has been at work for a long time. Now what do they do ? <br /><br />Sammael - controls Illian<br />Belal - Tear<br />Rahvin - Andor<br />Aginor &amp; Balthamel gets themselves killed ...<br />Asmodean - wanders around, then hooks up with Rand<br />Mesaana - controls the White Tower<br />Graendal - Arad Doman<br />Semirhage - Watches Tuon / controls the Seanchan second party <br />Lanfear - uncertain/moons after Rand ...<br /><br />The only Forsaken that takes any interest in the southwest is Moghedien. And we don&#180;t know if that is her only location. Probably she is mainly spying on the others, not planning any military or political actions.<br /><br />Could it really be that the Forsaken don&#180;t interest themselves in the southwest ( Ghealdan, Amadicia, Altara, Tarabon etc ) ? Nonono. The Forsaken that are closest to the Dark One ( Ishy, Dem, Semi, Mesaana ) are certainly aware of the Seanchan. They are just too important to be ignored.<br /><br />And the only one left to deal with this area is Demandred. I think he is in control of the Seanchan Forerunners and Semi&#180;s controlling the second party.<br /><br />Moghedien has a hand in it also. There is a connection between her and Suroth in some way as is proved by Liandrins fate. But if this is Moggy working on her own before she gets the mindtrap or on orders fron the Moridin/Ishy/Demandred gang is unclear to me.<br /><br />Who Demandred is posing as is not as important compared to what he&#180;s doing.<br /><br />Well, well, maybe we will know in two months ...<br />


created: 2002-11-21 18:08:46
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
It is possible, he is Seanchan. He would not need to be in Randland to manipulate Masima. Remember, Perrin has just learned about the Prophet meeting with the Seanchan. The Seanchan do not really respect bandits, so why the discreet meeting? And also, he could move in on Seanchan territory even if Semmirhage is Anath (remember the loose alliance, they would not go after each other until the others were gone.) I think semirhage is Thereva anyway. But Demandred could be the seeker. He is on the trail of the woman who knows where a device that could capture Rand is. And would Demandred want anything more?


created: 2002-09-13 15:24:04
subject: <b>search for angreals and sa'angreals</b>
body:
Well maybe all the stuff Moiraine brought over the dragon wall will finally get used.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 16:09:37
subject: <b>At least...</b>
body:
...this is the first theory to address the &quot;why&quot; of Logain going to Cairhien.  I would doubt it was for angreals though.  I would place my bet on some kind of audience with Rand.  He's the kind of guy Rand needs.  Logain addresses him properly when he mentions Rand and respects him for what he knows he is destined for from his POV.  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 16:31:53
subject: <b>How much better are the Asha'man?</b>
body:
Are the Asha'man really that much stronger than the Dedicated? I always felt that the Dedicated were only raised to Asha'man if they held Taim's view. I thought that their were some Dedicated who were strong enough and good enough to be Asha'man, but Taim didn't like the way they thought. Maybe I'm wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 18:59:10
subject: <b>Playing the numbers game</b>
body:
Logain doesn't need angreal with most of the Black Tower on his side. Besides, whatever advantage the relatively few full Ashaman have, linking with the Aes Sedai would overcome this. It is more likely that Logain is looking for Rand to find out what is going on.


created: 2002-09-14 01:05:47
subject: <b>Rain man</b>
body:
definitely looking for Rand, definitely<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 01:33:48
subject: <b>Many things he could go for..</b>
body:
First what no ones said...to prove Taim sent the traitors... now this can do many things if he finds some proof...<br /><br />1. He tells rand and gets on his good side<br />2. he proclaims Taim a traitor to try and make rebellion just.<br />3. he proclaims Taim traitor to gain more followers for the war.<br />4. or just to confirm Taim is really is THAT bad..<br /><br />5. for other reasons..<br /><br />Now i agree he could be going to find rand or research...but..I think he'd be searching more for info on channeling to get some tricks to use in the battle..to get an edge i doubt he'll find info leading to Angeals Sa'angeals or Ter'angels and As far as i know the Wagons with the goodies were last seen on the way/or made it to the tower..so i doubt he's looking for the wagon...<br /><br />he might just be in search of some of that good old Cairhein women and wine *grins* who knows whats on his mind


created: 2002-09-14 02:22:48
subject: <b>the research idea doesn't seem likely</b>
body:
If the only reason he was going to Cairhien was to use the library, I doubt he would have announced himself in such a dramatic fashion.  He would have gone in secret.  Because he will not have much time in Cairhien once Taim finds out that he is running his own show now.<br /><br />He could just have easily sent a few intelligent Ashamen (with brown Aes Sedai) to use the library in secret.  That way, he could have learned everything he needed, without alerted Taim to his plan so soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 02:53:44
subject: <b>Some Speculation</b>
body:
Well, now that the theory got posted I want to make a speculation. In WH Logain tells Gabrelle and Toveine to enter his house and make some tea. After these casual words, he ORDERS them exactly NOT to touch his books. I think that these books have something to   do with his departure for Cairhien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 02:55:09
subject: <b>the asah'man vs. the dedicated</b>
body:
the first group of people who could channel under taim in the black tower were all people who came for rand.<br />they are all not suspect of being dark friends, damer flinn, grady, others ...<br /><br />taim will be killed according to egwene's dreaam, and logain will mount the black tower.<br />let jordan write the story, will you ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I can't speak to the point or I might provoke the provoker.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 12:31:25
subject: <b>L and T and Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Anyone think it's possible that Logian will aid Egwene's forces against Tar Valon?  He and his Dedicated, perhaps.<br /><br />The problem with saying all Ash'aman are dedicated to Taim is that why WOULDN'T they obey him?  Taim has been designated by The Dragon Reborn himself as the M'Hael, the teacher. It is Rand's order that has them obeying Taim. <br /><br />I don't buy for a moment that they would all side with Taim against Rand, should it come to it.  Which, of course, it won't -- the conflict will be between Taim and Logain first.<br /><br />Taim is using his influence to find the corruptible Asha'man.  But they all aren't budding Dreadlords.


created: 2002-09-15 20:02:22
subject: <b>i agree with SeraphicLaw</b>
body:
i think SeraphicLaw is right. plus from what we have seen of soldiers, they are already killing machines. i think the battle training comes first, then things such as healing and other things. so Logain would have the advantage of numbers if not experience<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ignorance is not just bliss, it is a house that i live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />                                 -Wayne Brady<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 22:20:23
subject: <b>logain went for help</b>
body:
i think logain went to cairhien for help or to let rand know what taim is upto. instead of finding rand he has found one of rands best friends(loil) and trusted ashaman. plus a but load of loyal AS also. this will certainly be good reading when crotw somes out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 02:56:16
subject: <b>another Plus for Logain..</b>
body:
He has Aes Sedai...i think 1 Women and 12 men could make a circle..unless the ratio limited to about 7/6 (the strongest Link of 13) anyways as i remember all the AS that were captured were Bonded to Logain and his men..so they get that advantage


created: 2002-09-16 12:32:45
subject: <b>Hehe</b>
body:
How long do you think the rebellion against Elayne would last if Logain takes the Tower and submits the Black Tower grounds to Elayne's authority in Camelyn?  In exchange for recognition of the organization's independence.


created: 2002-09-16 19:52:12
subject: <b>Are the Ashaman better trained?</b>
body:
It seems to me that Taim has simply made all of his followers Ashaman regardless of abilities.  Rand made Dashiva and Flinn Ashaman without going through Taim, and he and 'his' Ashaman looked down on Rand's coterie.  This indicates, to me, that the Ashaman are not necessarily better trained, but simply put in positions of leadership by Taim to control the rest.  (Think of it as a General making all his firends Captains over the Sargents and Soldiers beneath him.)  In that case, the Ashaman are not much better than the rest, and the best of the lot, (Torval, Gedwyn, Kisman, etc.) were killed by Rand (actually everyone but Rand) in Far Madding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-20 00:45:23
subject: <b>Missing Something Folks</b>
body:
I think it is very likely that Logain has come for angreals...or at the very least he will find them. Evidence comes from Glimmers itself (pgs 123-5): Karldin finds a note on the body of one of the attempted assasins, and Loial says &quot;...if there were more then two Karldin, if they found...&quot; Now what could Loial and Karldin know about that darkfriends would look for, but that they wouldn't want Aes Sedai to know about? Only thing I can think of is some sort of object of the power: angreal, sa'angreal, or ter'angreal. Nothing else that I can think of would get this sort of reaction. Thoughts?


created: 2002-09-20 15:57:21
subject: <b>geoff mc is right</b>
body:
In Glimmers, Logain speaks to one of Taim's faction who invites him to Taim's &quot;private lessons.&quot;  Logain speculates after that the Asha'man might lose his Dragons if he doesn't watch his mouth.  This, plus the observation (in LoC) that none of the men who came to Rand personally were full Asha'man, leads to the obvious conclusion that full Asha'man status is a sign of Taim's favor, rather than ability.  Logain probably asked permission to recruit to get around any spurious charges of desertion if he went to Cairhien, as it is likely no one at the BT is allowed to come and go as they please, especially since Rand told Taim to stay there.  Finally, the PLURAL OF ANGREAL is ANGREAL!!!!  Not ANGREALS, dammit!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 11:17:01
subject: <b>the reason why he is in Cairhien</b>
body:
1stly, the 31 pages were found in CHACHIN not cairhien.<br /><br />2ndly, if he wanted to search a library, why shout it from the rooftops?<br /><br />3rdly, how would he know about Moiraine's stash.<br /><br />4thly, he is searching in the last place Rand was for RAND!<br /><br />Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one.<br />By the way, Loial was talking about the SEALS!!


created: 2002-12-10 07:22:20
subject: <b>Another idea</b>
body:
Logain went to Cairhien to help &quot;prepare&quot; that country for when Elayne takes over. The last thing Rand did in public was send orders with Dobraine(?) about what to do with Cairhien while Rand was AWOL.<br /><br />Though it is more likely to be the &quot;out looking for proof of Taim's guilt and for help from Rand&quot;, if we can still base anything on that description of what was going to happen in WH. (Maybe that &quot;Logain discovers Taim is a liar&quot; was just postponed, and not a total misdirection?)


created: 2003-01-15 14:47:03
subject: <b>Logain left to find Rand...</b>
body:
Logain went to meet Rand.  <br /><br />As someone already mentioned, Logain heads to Cairhein, where Rand was last known to be....then, near the end of the book, he ends up where Rand actually is.  With news/info for Rand.<br /><br />He is there to help Rand. Egwene, and Siuane (Sp?), helped set him free so he could find Rand, and help him.  <br /><br />He may have had other plans for his trip, but the main one was to see Rand.<br /><br />Sar


created: 2003-01-20 23:12:58
subject: <b>Answer: Warn Rand about Taim</b>
body:
Well, it's clear from the end that Logain went to Cairhien looking for Rand to warn him about Taim.  And to tell him that Rand's control over the Black Tower was about to be lost if he didn't reassert it soon.  <br /><br />For Jordan, that's a short mystery -- it was solved before we reached the end of the book it started in.


created: 2003-11-26 14:15:23
subject: <b>Library Theory</b>
body:
If one reason for him going to Cairhien was in fact to go to the library, I belive there is a reason other than aquiring information about Angreal or Angreal themselves.<br /><br />I'm surprised it hasnt been mentioned already.<br /><br />If I were him I'd be researching information on men and women linking with the one power, especially what with the Ashaman bonding Aes Sedai. It seems like the next logical step, not necessarily in preperation for a battle in the black tower, but for TG.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents.


created: 2005-04-04 13:07:30
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I like Logain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> (I matched with him on the personality-test too)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 13:12:33
subject: <b>And...</b>
body:
Does Taims ashaman bond Aes Sedais? Anyway Logains does... If they link in tha battle against Taim, they could crush him! Wouldn't that have been fun? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> (If Taims Ashaman bond Aes sedais too (wich they probably do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />), this was really stupid)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 12:17:46
subject: <b>Some potential problems</b>
body:
1.  We still do not know what was Foretold for Tuon when we first met her, that made her punish (then comfort) the damane.  That has been the most critical thing about Tuon, yet we are still unaware what it is.  There is much speculation, but no fact.  But from this unknown part is her motivation, even if she doesn't like it. In any event, we can surmise that it is something that would be unappreciated by a high noble Seanchan.<br /><br />We KNOW Mat and Tuon will be married.  Some guess that this is what she heard, or something related to that.  Also, if I recall, the rolling dice stopped at the Tuon encounter (correct me if I'm wrong, please).  If so, there is a certain necessity to this.<br /><br />2.  If you recall, both Mat and Perrin have commented about not 'feeling right' when they were trying to go against the Pattern.  Tuon's smile may be the feeling of satisfaction of finally accepting the Pattern in her life. <br /><br />3.  Just because even reasonable Seanchan believe Rand must kneel doesn't mean they're right, just as it doesn't have to mean they're Dark Friends.  There are likely some truly well-meaning Whitecloaks (including Galad) who are simply errant in their beliefs and priorities.  Don't forget: many of the Seanchan 'prophecies' or believes will be at least tainted from Ishamael's manipulation.  Plus, the Seanchan are wrong about damane/Aes Sedai, though they all fervently believe they are correct.


created: 2002-09-14 13:03:31
subject: <b>There's a lot we don't know</b>
body:
We know so very little about the Seanchan, it makes it impossible to prove or disprove anything.<br /><br />I don't believe for a second that Rand has to kneel before the Crystal Throne.  The Seanchan are wrong about everything.  I believe their entire culture and belief system was manipulated by Ishamael as part of some kind of long-term &quot;master plan&quot;.  It seems obvious to me that their prophecies have been doctored.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 13:07:18
subject: <b>Hmmm..</b>
body:
I wonder IF she hs it..IF she can keep it from the 2 AS with them....Remember Females feel dark feelings near it..like Dread,Fear,sadness etc.. but how far from the object does that Dread Aura end..i'm not sure..<br /><br />also we can't be ure she has it..it's more bulky then a normal A'dam and i don't remember anyone of her's lugging around a bag.. so that makes me think if she ever had it, that she doesn't right now.<br /><br />As to why she smiles and Mat shivers...who knows..maybe the smile reminded him of his Formal love thew queen...hehe<br />


created: 2002-09-14 14:01:04
subject: <b>Mat's marriage</b>
body:
Keep in mind Mat may already have wed himself to Tuon without knowing it.  The only time she has shock (no smiles) during their encounter was when he says that she is his wife.  Something very important has to do with that veil and why she is wearing it, and Mat removed it.  Maybe marrying her is as easy as removing the veil and naming her his wife.  <br /><br />Tuon is probably not a DF, but is definately a pawn of Anath/Semi.  In the dust jacket of CoT it says that the Shadow is chasing Mat along with the Seanchan.  Would this just reference Semirhage, or another shadowspawn threat?  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 14:22:05
subject: <b>Daymon makes a good point...</b>
body:
... about the bulky a'dam not being on her person.  It's not like Mat is going to let her go to her room and pack a few things...<br /><br />I had thought about that before posting.  All I could come up with is that Selucia might have it.  Maybe he WILL let them pack some things if Tuon or Selucia offers to help them escape.  Their original plan was to use Egeanin's authority to simply walk out the front gate.  It will be hard to do that with a tied-up DOTNM slung over Mat's shoulder...<br /><br />P.S. I had the same problem with the error page.  Nice to know it wasn't just me...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 15:48:07
subject: <b>Tuon's smile is painted w/ daggers</b>
body:
I agree that Tuon's smile was not on something superficial. Heirs of the Empress were encouraged to do intrigue against each other so that the Empress could name the best Great Game player as the [Heir] of the Nine Moons. Perhaps the Great Game among the High Blood was as sophisticated and byzantine as among the Cairhienin, or even better.<br />Tuon's only 19 (or 20) years old and already she outlived two heirs being put in the Tower of Ravens, another heir dying, and her own soe'feia (Neferi) being pushed down the stairs and breaking her neck. Presumably, she also survived questionings by Seekers back in Seanchan in connection with those imprisoned heirs. And one of her mother's favorite games was to leash damane to High Lords, watching them scream in agony to death if the Lord happens to have an unknown channeling capability.<br />How many of us can say that we are ever that good at intrigue in high school or college?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 22:08:24
subject: <b>Hang on one minute . . .</b>
body:
While I do believe that Tuon's smile is significant, there are some flaws in this argument.<br /><br />To begin with, where would Tuon get such information about Mat's connection to the Dragon Reborn? It's highly unlikely that even Tylin knows of a connection between Mat and Rand, and why should Mat tell her, anyway? On their first meeting, Mat managed to persuade Tylin that the only thing remarkable about him was that he is ta'veren. Why should Tylin think to take it further? Of course, if Anath is really Semirhage, as is likely, she is probably aware of who Mat is, and may have told Tuon. There are, however, a few problems with this assumption. Anath shows absolutely no interest in Mat, which is odd behaviour for one of the Forsaken, though this may be a ploy. The most important piece of evidence, however, is that in Mat and Tuon's (4?) conversations, she never finds out his name, and it says in Winter's Heart somewhere that she and Tylin never spoke of him again after the first meeting. If Anath never heard the name Mat Cauthon she would probably not be interested. It is also possible that she does not know what he looks like, either.<br /><br />It has been suggested that Tuon is under Anath's thumb, but I think there is significant evidence against this, if Anath is Semirhage. In Ch 14, Tuon thinks that she is not comfortable with Anath, a strange feeling for someone under compulsion. She also refuses Anath's offer of a penance on several occasions throughout the book, insisting that she must atone in her own way. If we compare this to Greandal's sycophants, and those complused by Rahvin and Moghedian, her behaviour is very different. She listens to Anath because she has been bought up in a family and culture that insists she listen to her Truthspeaker, but she does not blindly follow all her advice. Anath is an influence, but does not control Tuon. Finally, in LoC, Semirhage relfects that her charge is willful and obdurate, not the thoughts of one whose charge is obedient. Channelling would be very difficult in Semirhage's circumstances, she often has trouble attending Forsaken meetings and apparently has made no attempt to change her appearance. Channeling would be very risky when surrounded by damane, even using inverted weaves. This may provide an answer as to why Anath is so vicious in her harangues directed at Tuon, and why the penance she administered was so severe, and why she keeps offering to give the girl another. With compulsion performed by channeling too risky, her harshness may be her only way of reining Tuon in, possibly by breaking her spirit through humiliation and punishment. <br /><br />Finally, Tuon must be very intelligent. Don't you think that Anath coming up with information about Mat would rouse her suspicions? Besides, she does not attempt to use Mat, or as far as we can make out. . .<br /><br />I think the safest assumption would be that Tuon's smile is related to the foretelling given to her by the damane Lidya.


created: 2002-09-14 22:37:33
subject: <b>The connection between Mat and Rand</b>
body:
We know that Suroth is a Darkfriend, and thus she would almost certainly know of the connection between Mat and Rand.  If Anath is Semirhage, then Anath definitely knows the connection between Mat and Rand.  Finally, Tuon attempts to buy Mat from Tylin.  Sure, he has well-turned calves; but considering Tuon's association with Suroth and Anath, I find it difficult to believe that's the only reason she's interested in him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 23:02:35
subject: <b>Tuon=Crystal Throne?</b>
body:
Perhaps Tuon, as the heir to the Crystal Throne, sort of IS the Crystal Throne.  Maybe if Rand kneels to her, he in a way, kneels to the the Crystal throne?


created: 2002-09-14 23:15:27
subject: <b>Think We're Looking Too Far into it.</b>
body:
Tuon comes off as something of a rebel.  If Semirhage actually comments on it...yow. <br /><br />There's a couple of things we're overlooking:<br /><br />1.  Mat is Ta'veren. I'm sure people aren't forgetting, but we know that his Thread-tweaking is typically symbolized by sounds of rolling dice.  And those have fully centered on Tuon. So something HAS to happen.<br /><br />Now, I'm one who doesn't like to attribute EVERYTHING to the guys being Ta'veren, but this is an interesting showdown.  It's really the first Forsaken vs. Taveren Who's Not Rand.  How will Semirhage's power and implacability stack up against Mat's 'luck' and quickness?  <br /><br />2.  Jordan LOVES to hook people up.  I swear, he's a horny old goat living vicariously through these matchups.  We've been wondering who the Daughter of the Nine Moons is for 7 books, and DING! here we are.<br /><br />I strongly think Semirhage may not know who Mat is.  First, others haven't worried about it.  Asmodean and Lanfear didn't pick up on it.  Asmodean started getting interested in Mat, but simply for what he seemed to be -- a brilliant prodigy.<br /><br />Mat has spent -very- little time with Rand since The Shadow Rising, so why would anyone associate him with them?  I'm betting even Halimagar didn't pick up on it, either.  After all, why should she/he?<br /><br />The focus is seriously on Rand.  Modern Scholars of the Dragon Reborn (Moiraine, Suian and Verin) were all shocked to find three ta'veren, esp. of such strength.  Don't you think if anyone had picked up on it, they would've sent far more against the Two Rivers when Perrin was there?  Don't you think that would've merited a brief side-trek by Dashiva or Demandred? <br /><br />Lastly, Semirhage seems by far the steadiest of the Forsaken. I think she's incredibly focused...she has a job, and that job is Tuon.   <br /><br />One more thing:  About the smile...remember, her sparring with him seemed as much a joy as anything else.  She was measuring herself up against him -- found him worthy, since she fully expected to win...and that and inevitability led to her smile when she realized who he was from her damane's Foretelling (yep, I just strung out some suppositions in this last part).


created: 2002-09-15 00:52:48
subject: <b>Mat will help bring the Seanchan to rand.</b>
body:
Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons, right? Well isn't the empress like &quot;the Nine Moons,&quot; in a matter of speaking? What happens if the almighty Empress, may she live forever, kicks it and dies? (I just realized I just contridicted myself) Tuon becomes empress with her brand new hubby, Mat. Rand now has a direct link to the Seanchan ruler. (And maybe he could just give her one little bow while she is on the Throne, just so the Seanchan don't feel like thier getting jipped on thier prophecy.)<br /><br />p.s. There needs to be a Tuon Emoticon, don't you agree?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 01:44:12
subject: <b>about who will serve who</b>
body:
Moirane mentions a few prophecies, I believe in tGH, anyway, one of them is: &quot;what does it mean that he will bind the nine moons to serve him?&quot;. This is even before we ever hear about Mat and his marriage to the DotNM. So, I think that the Seanchan will end up on Rand's side before all is said and done. That said, I also think that Rand will end up wearing the Sad Bracelets too, in a kinda collared hold the lamb up for slaughter move, maybe the women that hold him are even the women close to him, ergo, Nynyaeve, Elayne, Avi, or Egween, or maybe even Alivia, she is supposed to help him die afterall. Anyway, the nine moons will be bound to serve him, it is in the prophesy of the Westlands, the prophecy that has been correct up to this point, and not the obscure fabricated Seanchan drivel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 12:46:09
subject: <b>&quot;Binding&quot; the Nine Moons</b>
body:
&quot;Binding&quot; seems to be a rather strong word.  It doesn't sound to me like Tuon is going to have much of a choice.  Here are some ideas along that line of thought about what it might mean...<br /><br />1) Tuon could be tricked or forced into swearing an oath on the Oath Rod.  Thus, &quot;binding&quot; would be literal.<br /><br />2) Rand might bond Tuon.  I don't know if he'd do that though, considering how angry he is at Alanna for doing it to him.<br /><br />3) There are the side effects of the Sad Bracelet.  Tuon may use it on Rand, but quickly herself under his control, thus satisfying both versions of the prophecy.  If so, who would the second woman be?  Semirhage as Anath?  But Tuon doesn't know Anath can channel, and Semirhage can't let her ability be seen by another female channeler without potentially giving away her identity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 21:44:47
subject: <b>just a note</b>
body:
the Sad Bracelets don't need two women, one is enough, but it is better with two. When Moggy tells Nynaeve about it, she says that the madness from the taint wouldn't be as bad if there are two females using it, but they would end up fighting for control. Now the taint is gone, so that shouldn't be an issue. One other thing that it seems isn't considered, and what I was saying before but not clearly. Is that Rand may end up in it voluntary, and then there would be no fighting for control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 22:38:36
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
This theory is exactly what I thought was happening, except I didn't think of the very reasonable point that she can't be carrying it. Oh well, it'll get worked in surely. I do think Rand will end up wearing the A'dam for a while, maybe that is when he'll need Perrin for the second time, and Mat will help. I bet that if Egwene or the others came along they'd save Rand from whoever held him, but wouldn't free him without wringing out some major concessions from him ('Rand I am the Arymlin Seat and I know everything and anyone who channels has to be ruled by me, so swear that you will obey me before I let you go. It's for your own good anyway, 'cause you're only a man so you can't be expected to make your own decisions'). Hopefully Rand'll flip if he is controlled by women again, and he might even still Egwene if she is the one who saves him.


created: 2002-09-16 09:31:12
subject: <b>I have always dreamed</b>
body:
Of Taim wearing that thing in the end.  Let Logain control him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 16:58:34
subject: <b>Tuon will make Mat a slave (da'covale)</b>
body:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There is a huge amount of evidence that Tylin will sell Mat to Tuon as a slave later in the story.  I think eventually Mat and Tuon will get married and control the Seanchan... but NOT until Mat loses his eye and the Seanchan Empress gets overthrown and a bunch of other stuff.  Tuon is going to enslave him first.<br /><br />As for her smile:  I think it was a smile of &quot;Oh boy, are you in for a surprise when you realize exactly what kind of power you just kidnapped.&quot;  She's probably thinking up punishments for him.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-16 20:20:51
subject: <b>Uhhhh.....I forget</b>
body:
...where it shows that Tylin owns Mat and can sell him, and where he is in her possession to enact such an arrangement.


created: 2002-09-16 22:26:54
subject: <b>Remember TDR</b>
body:
Page 93 of paperback Dragon Reborn:<br /><br />(Moraine) &quot;What does it mean that he shall bind the nine moons to serve him&quot;<br /><br />I think everyone forgets a lot of the earlier books when it comes to prophecies and viewings about the seanchan. <br /><br />Moraine is telling rand about several areas of the Karatheon Cycle that no ones knows about. Well, we now know about a lot of things that he foreshadowed back then, and so this means that rand, somehow, some way, will bind Tuon and the Seanchan to him. How, I dont know. So i will wait with every other addict...


created: 2002-09-16 22:31:15
subject: <b>your right!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Tuon can channel.........Oh Mat wake up! This is one of his most deadliest foes, he's going to need that fox head and his charms more than any other time in his life.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 00:56:36
subject: <b>*Groan*</b>
body:
Semirhage doesnt know who Mat is? The Forsaken havent been concerned with him????? What about the aiel dropped in on his tent? Or Melindrha with Sammael's knife? Or how about the Gholam's orders to kill him along with the girls?<br /><br />The Dark has known of Mat and Perrin since EotW. Theyve been out for three years and the Forsaken dont know? lol. Ishmael showed all of the DF's at his meeting their faces so why would the Forsaken not know them?<br /><br />Or how about the Fade's comments to Perrin in tDR? &quot;Cut one leg off the tripod and it falls.&quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 01:56:31
subject: <b>Semi and Mat, and the Shadow</b>
body:
There is one thing about all those examples of the Forsaken knowing about Mat. All of those are Sammael. Sammael sent the gholam, Melindhra, and the Aiel. Sammael wanted mat out of the way 'cause Mat was ostentatiously going to go be in charge of the attack on him (and I'm guessing Sammy had a spy who told him of Mat's generaling capabilities, although questioning who opens up a whole 'nother can of worms...) Anyway, the point is, Sammy is the only one who has tried to do in Mat, and Sammy was a rebel. Plus, he's dead. Sure, Ishy was after Mat in TEoTW but that's 'cause at that stage no-one knew whether Rand, Mat or Perrin was the DR. Semirhage has no connection to or prior association with the idea of killing Mat. Moreover, I fully agree with the other things mentioned; Tuon is certainly not under Semirath's thumb, and either Semi or Suroth mentioning &quot;oh, I happen to know that Tylin's commonborn unimportant toyboy is one of the Dragon Reborn's best friends, isn't that useful?&quot; would make her just a little suspicious. No-one in Ebou Dar really knows who Mat is, except Thom, and no-one will persuade me that he told Semi who told Tuon who...yadda yadda yadda....<br /><br />The other thing is, the blurb mentions that Mat finds he can neither keep her <i>nor let her go</i>, not in safety for <i>either of them</i>, for both the Shadow and the might of the Seanchan Empire are in deadly pursuit....<br />What this says to me is: Mat can't keep her because if he does he's dead (the Seanchan.) he can't let her go because...she will not be safe? From what? Obviously, the Shadow. Somehow, it is worked out that Suroth is a Bad Person, probably through the Egeanin and Thom connections. And Semi and Suroth decide the best thing to do is get rid of the troublesome Tuon, blame it all on Mat, get rid of him too, and have Suroth, a DF, in charge of the invasion - instead of the possible reasonable Tuon. So Tuon agrees to come with Mat, in hopes of getting to, say, Tarabon where the Hailene is but Suroth isn't. And then, maybe, to the DR. But on the way she tells Mat - through ta'veren or not - something about the male a'dam, which he already knows of through Thom. Then that can be averted before it happens. <br /><br />*pulls herself back and shakes her head* Um, wow, speculation overdrive there. But I think my point was that Suroth and Semi are out (or going to be) to get Tuon. Hey, I might have a theory here...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 08:15:03
subject: <b>assumptions?</b>
body:
You seem to be assuming that the Forsaken work together and share information, GG.  Ruhira had a very good point.  Only a couple (I'll add Ishamael/Moridin to the list) have demonstrated ANY awareness of who Mat is.  I don't recall Semirhage at that meeting....<br /><br />Essentially, you are basing your approach on the premise that the Forsaken share information.  I submit there is far, far more evidence to show that they do not.<br /><br />As for Melindhra and the attack on the camp...that's just it -- it was an attack on the entire camp.  And for Melindhra, it could as readily have been her being attracted to Mat the same way Asmodean started to notice him; he's brilliant and successful and knows things he shouldn't and is close to the Dragon Reborn.  <br /><br />To squash your Forsaken theory, Asmodean was as stunned (moreso, actually) as anyone with Mat's battleplan.  Surely he would've known to suspect something if he knew who/what Mat was.  Lanfear showed Mat absolutely zero interest.  She's not so fixated on LTT/Rand as to ignore such a plum as that.  And this occurred AFTER that meeting you mentioned.


created: 2002-09-17 13:17:56
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
You are mistaken again.  The attempted assasination of Mat by the Aeil was not an attack on the entire camp.  I will refresh your memory.  A Male channeler creates a gateway beside Mat's tent in the middle of the night.  Some Aeil drop in through the gateway and attempt to take Mat's life.  They were unsucessful.  This just after Sammuels attempt to make a treaty with Rand which I believe he intended to keep, at least for awhile anyway.  Unless you can convince me otherwise I believe it was Demmy that made that gateway.  If you are a male channeler do you not need to know exactly where your going to make a gateway?  The exact spot?  Might suggest someone in the band?<br /><br />To assume after 3yrs that the remaining Chosen are unaware of Perrin and Mat is Foolish.  It also suggest that these remaining Chosen are extremley stupid.  Aren't we dealing with the top guns?  I guess not.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 13:51:43
subject: <b>Lanfear knew about Mat...</b>
body:
Lanfear made a point of visiting Mat in the WT in TDR.  She knew he sounded the Horn of Valere.  His role as the hornsounder may not be common knowledge amongst the Forsaken, but his friendship with Rand pretty much has to be.  After all, it is common knowledge amongst the AS that the three ta'veren were found together, therefore it is known to the BA.  I would guess that all the Forsaken have at least a few BA contacts.<br /><br />As for Semiranath knowing but not doing anything.  Well, it wouldn't be the first time a Forsaken's actions were inexplicable.  Mesaana and Halimagar are both in a position to do far more &quot;active&quot; damage than we've seen, but have chosen to take more subtle actions.  Semiranath may be doing the same, manipulating events around Mat &quot;off-camera&quot;.  In fact, the original theory is pretty much based on that supposition.  We know that Tuon wants to contact Rand (see Quote 3 in the theory).  It makes sense that she would see Mat as a means to an end.  That is why she is watching him, but otherwise not interfering with his escape plan.<br /><br />BTW, I had always assumed that the attempts on Mat's life were all initiated by Sammael.  There was always a plan (between Lanfear, Sammael, Greandal, and Rahvin) to &quot;bait&quot; Rand into attacking Sammael, allowing the other three to ambush him.  I remember a quote along the lines of &quot;maybe someone close to him dies&quot;.  The assassination attempts seem to have stopped with the death of Sammael (except for the gholam, which is carrying out orders received BEFORE Sammy died).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 14:25:18
subject: <b>Tuon is not the danger</b>
body:
Of all the little group now attached to Mat, I don't think she is the true danger - personally I have been convinced from the word go that Mat's new and very convenient companion Noal (who doesn't even so much as flinch at the sight of a gholam) is the mysterious Old Cully mentioned by Shiane's POV, as an unobtrusive Darkfriend who stands very high indeed. He also matches the description of the man who Mat meets outside Carridin's palace and is then described still watching them later, even to the large nose and the long knives. He has the sound of someone who was 'distilled' the same way Fain was before he entered Aridhol.


created: 2002-09-17 16:47:05
subject: <b>Crusader</b>
body:
I don't know if your aware of it or not, but most people are of the thought that Noel Charin, is actually Jain Charin, AKA, Jain Farstrider. You might want to read up on the FAQ on this site about Jain Farstrider. It would seen that while Noel/Jain has ran into Ishameal and most likely Greandal, I don't think I have ever seen him been suggested as &quot;Old Cully&quot;. We know that Noel is haveing memory problems, he get that from his own POV, but I don't think he's been playing at a high level dark friend and can't remember it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 18:30:26
subject: <b>Windsor...</b>
body:
is correct.  <br /><br />Would Semmy use the Male adam considering its drawbacks?  As for Tuon using it, no way!  Rand would be in control very quickly were Tuon to try and use the adam.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 19:45:33
subject: <b>Wow! A TRIPLE post! lol.</b>
body:
You're not thinking straight, Vashti. Do the Forsaken share all info? No. Agreed there. But when even Fades know about all three ta'varen (&quot;cut off one leg and the tripod falls&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> in book 3, thinking that all of the Forsaken don't know about Mat and Perrin is, and I'll do Columbo one up here, stupidity.<br /><br />What did you expect? Semirhage to walk right up to Mat and shake his hand? &quot;Hi, I'm Semirhage. Oh, btw, I'll be trying to kill you (or mabye you think that the Dark wants the Light's greatest General alive?) so I thought I'd introduce myself.&quot; Now that's exagerated, obviously, but the point still stands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 00:00:35
subject: <b>Columbo...</b>
body:
You think that Rand would take control of the a'dam the minute Tuon clamps it on him? You're forgetting that Tuon prides herself on being a very skilled sul'dam and trainer of damane. Think back to her training of the damane Mylen (who was Aes Sedai to boot). Tuon would put all her sul'dam skills onto trying to control Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 01:18:01
subject: <b>Semirhage certainly knows who Mat is</b>
body:
Excellent discussion here.  Here are my 2 coppers <br /><br /><br />Here is why I think Semirhage knows about Cauthon and is interested in him:<br />Most of the Forsaken already know Mat:<br /><br />1. Ishmael- this is obvious<br />2. Lanfear- she saw him naked for heaven's sake!<br />3. Moghedian- She has to know about Mat since she was in the Salidar Aes Sedai camp, and spent so much time with the wondergirls<br />4. Mesana- Cauthon was in the white tower, created a huge stir<br />5. Samuel- this one is obvious<br />6. Arangar- a.k.a. Balthamel- He tried to kill Mat in Salidar<br />7. Osangar- a.k.a. Aginor- He must know of Cauthon from the Eye of the World<br />8. Rahvin, Be'lal, Asmodean - don't matter<br />Now this leaves 3 forsaken: Semirhage, Demandred, and Graendal<br />I would wager that the forsaken probably learned of Cauthon from their trips to the D.O. in Shayol Ghul. If not, Semirhage probably learned of Cauthon from Mesana, since she has meetings with Mesana and Demandred.<br />If not from Mesana or Demandred or the D.O., she learned of cauthon from Aes Sedai. Judging by the stir that Cauthon created when he arrived at the Salidar Aes Sedai camp, Mat Cauthon is a hard person not to know about. If you look at it, Mat has had as many direct experiences with Forsaken as Rand has had.  If most Aes Sedai know about Mat Cauthon, then I refuse to believe that Semirhage's intelligence network is crippled enough that she doesn't know about him.<br />Semirhage has her eye on Mat. Just cause<br />she hasn't expressed any outward interest doesn't mean anything. I think Semirhage will still direct her full attention on this young rogue.  <br /><br />Also, would not a dreamworker be able to see ta'veren?  Correct me if I am wrong, but don't ta'veren have a very strong light that eminates in dreamworld, that makes it very easy to find?  I mean, how else did Ishmael find Rand, Mat and Perrin so easily in EoTW?  <br /><br />Any person in dreamworld (i am speculating), with skill, should be able to find ta'veren.  So this is a whole 'nother idea of finding out about Mat.  Lanfear clearly had spied on some of Mat's dreams, and so had Ishy.  And all the forsaken have times to dreamworld, as we saw from some of the df meetings. (including the one that nynaeve spied on)<br /><br />Therefore, I think it is highly unrealistic to think that Semirhage doesn't know who Mat is.<br /><br />And finally, I think Ruriha has one of the best ideas that i've seen here:  Semirhage and Suroth might try to take Tuon out, thus vesting control for themselves.  Therefore, Tuon would be in danger no matter where she went.  And, of course, Mat is going to be a marked Mat until he gets a pardon from a Seanchan higher up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 01:26:06
subject: <b>Old Cully is DEFINITELY not Noal Charin</b>
body:
<br />Here is the conclusive info (found from the FAQ), of why Old Cully cannot be Noal Charin. <br /><br />&quot;Old Cully-- One of the local DFs is a murderous old beggar named Old Cully, and it's been suggested that this Old Cully and the barrel man (Noal) are one and the same. This is not possible. Carridin knows Old Cully by sight, yet when he sees the barrel man (Noal Charin) in [ACOS: 15, Insects, 286] standing next to Mat, he doesn't recognise him. Another reason why the barrel man can't be Old Cully: Carridin describes Old Cully as having one eye and no teeth [ACOS: 15, Insects, 284]. But when Mat sees the barrel guy in [ACOS: 14, White Plumes, 282]: &quot;...he grinned, showing gaps in his teeth&quot;. There is no mention of the barrel guy missing an eye, either.&quot;<br /><br />Once again, feel free to correct me, but didn't Old Cully get killed by Mat?<br /><br />Recall when Mat was waylaid by beggars in Ebou Dar.  Birgitte, Beslan, and Mat killed off the beggars (who weren't in the guild), and the guild beggars took out the rest.  I distinctly recall one of the beggars being quite a nasty man, who hadn't bathed in weeks.<br /><br />I could be wrong, but i always associated that beggar with Old Cully.  Afterall, Old Cully was ordered by Carridin to capture Mat. (hence the bag that Mat saw).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 03:47:51
subject: <b>I'll beat Columbo to the punch here.</b>
body:
The reason that Rand would take control of Tuon is because the male a'dam works differently from the female versions. Moggy talks about this to Nyn (I think it was) and says that using it would be EXTREMELY dangerous because it becomes a battle wills, and the one clamped will come out on-top because if they don't they will be broken. See, the man has a chance to exert his will on the woman wearing the bracelet. The only way around this is to share control of him the way that Nyn and Elayne do to her later: continually pass the leash. As Moggy put it: who would you trust enough with the Dragon Reborn?<br /><br />As well, if 2 women wear the bracelets at the same time, they get VERY jealous and mistrustful of the other's intentions and it opens a door for the man to take control of both of THEM. <br /><br />Is this a way for the Seanchan to bow to Rand, Mr. Iron Will? Yes, but Tuon has no chance against a man as hard as Rand where the Male a'dam is concerned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 05:07:51
subject: <b>Because Noal is who he is</b>
body:
Noal is property of Tuon. He is her Hand. She is smiling because her plan is working. She is going with Mat, based on the Foretelling that she got on the boat, signs of birds and stuff.  Noal has a big nose, he is quick minded, willing to grab one of the blood after he has been giving Mat info on stuff (as good as Thom can).  Mat has some of the quickest hands around and Tuon kicks the crap out of him several times.  She does not hit Noal once while he holds her. The Maid talks about &quot;this is madness&quot; to Tuon..while not looking at her.  Jordan has said that the  protectors and property of the blood can read their tiny signals while not looking directly at them.  The Plan was to go with Mat...she is going and taking her Maid (deathwatch guard in a maid suit) and old dude that has Mat's confidence (her Hand and assistant guy) and 3 or 4 leashed women and a Captain that knows WHO and WHAT she is.  Many people smile when a Plan comes together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ynot Takeit<br /><br />from the village of Uall.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 05:57:40
subject: <b>Is Tuon the Real Danger?</b>
body:
If you think about it carefully, it may be unlikely that Tuon will try to put the male a'dam on Rand. Now, of course she's been brought up with the prophecies concerning the crystal throne and all, but what we are not considering is the sort of upheaval that Tuon will have to go through before she gets near him. Just consider one of her travelling companions, Egeanin. What does Egeanin know? Egeanin knows from Elayne and Nynaeve that channelling can be taught, and she figured out that sul'dam must be women who can be taught to channel. It's only a matter of time before she tells Tuon. Tuon can fit two and two together easily enough, and will realise that this means that she can channel. This is probably going to be a pretty big shock for her. Renna, Seta, and Bethamin have apparently never gotten over it, and though I suspect that Tuon is made of sterner stuff, she too will feel what they are feeling.<br /><br />The belief in the whole damane/sul'dam thing is important to Seanchan society, and the loss of it has been a big blow to those three sul'dam and Egeanin. Though Egeanin has not begun to question the validity of the Seanchan prophecies as yet, many of her beliefs are eroding, and it may only be a matter of time, both for her and for Tuon.<br /><br />Finally, Tuon is likely going to be with the group leaving Ebou Dar for at least a little while. It is worth considering that she may well develop some relationships with these people, and some of her priorities may change as a result.


created: 2002-09-18 10:54:13
subject: <b>Noal is not Tuon's hand</b>
body:
Noal knows practically nothing about the Seanchan.<br /><br />When he was going into the Tarasin palace, he made a remark that showed his complete ignorance of Seanchan Seekers.  Mat was slightly worried about Noal's remark.  I think it had something to do with breaking the Seanchan vows.<br /><br />Noal comes from someone different entirely.  Noal has been to Shara.  And he is almost certainly Jain Farstrider.  I have 2 theories speculating Noal's connection with Graendal.  They are both solid, especially the part that says that Noal is under compulsion (similiar to the compulsion of Morgase), and the part that says that Noal (the old barrel man) has been spying on both Carridin and the black Aes Sedai in town.<br /><br />I'll let you read the theory for yourself, but a Noal connection with Tuon (although an interesting idea) currently  seems unlikely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 15:46:18
subject: <b>Noal knows nothing about the Seachan</b>
body:
If you did not want folks to know you were from America, you would not walk around acting like John Wayne.  My point being, the guy that Matt played dice with and mentioned the DO9Moons was not dressed in Seachan clothing and acting like one.  The ship captain that hung with Elane and Lan's wife didn't stand out as a Seachan until Bayle recognized her.  I'll read up on the old man theory.  Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ynot Takeit<br /><br />from the village of Uall.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-20 02:30:53
subject: <b>Matrimony:Graendal</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure Graendal knows about Mat too. In LOC in the chapter titled A Different Dance. HB p.117, 2nd para. Mat is making his rounds of the inns and pokes his head in one and sees &quot;there a copper-skinned Domani woman,though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers&quot;. 16 pages later, in Threads Woven in Shadow, Sammael is meeting Graendal in Arad Doman, p.130 2nd para. &quot;Her thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger&quot;. Then on p.132 1st para. she uses the MOM to show Sammael one of her disguises, &quot;Her skin became coppery but dull, her hair and eyes dark but flat&quot;. The fact that these events were so close, kind of caught my attention. Of course it could just be a coincidence. If there is such a thing in RJs' world.   A little more Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-20 09:16:04
subject: <b>Light of the Night</b>
body:
That is a great, great pick-up.<br /><br />To me, that is icing on the cake that Graendal has schemes revolving around Mat.  <br /><br />You have got to be the 1st person I know who has seen that.<br /><br />I think you should either make a theory of it and post it to the theorypost.  Feel free to add any pts. from any of my earlier 2 theories on the connections between Graendal and Mat.<br /><br />If you don't post to TP, at least copy what you wrote and post it to the WOT message board.  It is at least worthy of everyone seeing.  As it is now, I don't think many people will see that message of yours.<br /><br />And if keep your eye out for more such instances.<br /><br />Did you know that we had a Sammael siting in Baerlon in the EotW.  He was that blonde man with the scar going all the way across his face.<br /><br />Perhaps other forsaken such as Demmy have been seen throughout the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 03:42:44
subject: <b>That *was* a nice pick-up, but . . .</b>
body:
How does a &quot;modest blue dress&quot; match with a &quot;thin blue Domani gown&quot; that &quot;clung and more than hinted?&quot;  If she was posing as a Domani, then I see no reason why she would have changed this detail.  In fact, wouldn't her &quot;modesty&quot; make her stand out?


created: 2002-09-21 10:07:52
subject: <b>Modesty</b>
body:
I guess modesty is in the eye of the beholder. Most Domani dresses that we have read about seem to cling and reveal. I more or less made this tie-in because in the same chapter, &quot;A Different Dance&quot;, HB p.119, Edorian, mentions to Mat that there was a rumor that the DR had been in town. Come to find out thru Mats' POV, he had gated into his room in the wee hours of the morning. Unless someone was listening at the door, or there was unmentioned taver'en miracles in the night, it suggested to me that maybe someone was using the little eavsdropping trick of Morainne's.   I know this is weak, but RJ gives us as little as possible to go on. Yet it does make sense that someone should be keeping an eye on Mat, when Rand has made it clear that the invasion of Illian will begin when Mat gets there to take over the invasion force.                 Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 19:51:38
subject: <b>The Sammael thing is chancy</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure said guy with scar was mentioned as a known local person and WC-informer, and at this point Sammy would be just out. Also, the timing's a little early - the Toxic Twosome were released at the end of TEoTW and they were the least bound apart from Ishy. The others took a little longer to get out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 22:02:20
subject: <b>Re: Modesty</b>
body:
I find it very unlikely that Sammael's definition of modest is more conservative than Mat's.  Remember the streith gowns?  People seemed to be open about these kinds of things in the Age of Legends, whereas men in the Third Age get excited over ankles.<br /><br />Also, the quote you provided (I don't have the books with me) said, &quot;a copper-skinned Domani woman,though wearing a modest blue dress.&quot;  This suggests to me that her dress was modest not only by Domani standards, or else RJ would have said something like, &quot;a copper-skinned woman wearing a blue dress that was modest by Domani standards.&quot;


created: 2002-09-22 00:01:07
subject: <b>about the gown</b>
body:
&quot;there a copper-skinned Domani woman,though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers&quot;. <br /><br />&quot;Her thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger&quot;. <br /><br />Ok- I think L. of the N.'s pickup is more involved than just a simple blue dress.  I personally think the most important point is that both people were wearing gemmed rings on all 10 fingers.  Not than many people (except Sevanna) dress in that fashion.<br /><br />In addition, we saw another of Graendal's disguises, where Graendal took on coppery skin.  This is the 2nd match.  And finally, we see something about a blue dress.  I personally don't think that the 'modest' descriptor is that important.<br />Modest is one of those words that can have different meaning based on the context.<br /><br />For example, I used to be a swimmer.  When I 1st had to where the speedo, I was embarrassed.  But later, I grew used to it.  And my mother told me that I was becomming more 'modest' with my swimsuit.  So, in this example, modest was used to describe my inhibition at exposing myself.<br /><br />But in most other examples, it is used in relation with religious people who dressed 'modestly' or in a non-revealing way.  <br /><br /><br />So, I think this catch is very valid, and very good. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-22 04:16:16
subject: <b>MOM</b>
body:
Graendal does like to dress lavishly, true, but remember with the MOM, the closer you stick to the original disguise the better. And if she was spying on Mat she wouldn't want to draw attention to herself. Graendal, and modest don't belong in the same sentence, Graendal and deception sure do though. Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 00:53:18
subject: <b>Look . . .</b>
body:
I wasn't trying to disprove your theory.  As far as I know, you could be right.  I simply thought that it was strange that she would choose to make herself &quot;modest&quot; when most Domani are anything but.  It seemed to me that a modest Domani would be more noticeable than one who dressed the way a normal Domani would.<br /><br />I know you have other arguments, which is why I think it is a valid theory.  I also realize that it is better to stick to the original disguise with the MOM, which is why I thought it was strange that she would choose to change such a small detail when it might have been better to stick to the original.<br /><br />However, now that I think about it, I suppose that most men *would* notice a Domani wearing a revealing dress more than they would notice a modest Domani.  That answers my own question.


created: 2002-09-24 21:12:13
subject: <b>Matrimony Cauthon..I agree????</b>
body:
I as well as GG also believe that it was Sammy in Eotw.  It irritates me when people say that he wasn't free at the time.  Of course he was!!!! Pay attention.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />P.S. I picked up on Greandal in LOC as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 08:16:19
subject: <b>Disagree...</b>
body:
in the Dragon Reborn, I cant remember but I think its Chapter 6. theres a possibility I got the wrong chapter , but whatever , Perrin argues with Moiraine about the prophecies.<br /> Moiraine says that there is no way to know the meanings of 90% of the prophecies and then PROCEEDS WITH EXAMPLES.<br />Among them , she mentions that he will &quot;bind the nine moons to his will&quot; -its not an exact quote but this is DEFINATELY mentioned.<br />Obviously, then no one knew that the Seanchans used &quot;nine moons&quot; abd so couldnt decipher the prophecy , but we know now.<br />Toun may think she can bind him , but i reckon she is in for a nasty surprise.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i killed the world and you can too if you try hard. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 19:00:26
subject: <b>Graendal in Maerone</b>
body:
I've found another pertinent quote:<br /><br />LOC, To Understand a Message (p 484)<br />Graendal (to Sammael): &quot;His army is still gathering in Tear.  I have seen it.&quot;<br /><br />If Graendal was personally scouting Rand's army on the Plains of Maredo, then it seems very likely that she would check on the progress of the Band as well.  Especially since everyone is supposed to know that the attack on Illian will begin when Mat joins Weiramon's army.<br /><br />IMNSHO, this confirms the Graendal sighting in Maerone.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 14:22:45
subject: <b>Where is she hiding it?</b>
body:
It would seem to be feasible, but I cannot conjecture her hiding it -- where? -- in her pocket?  She was kidnapped by Mat, and she wasn't packed and ready to go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Here be Myth</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 10:39:14
subject: <b>Im confused!</b>
body:
Ok now, it looks like ive missed something very important lol. Anath is Semirhage? Is it a fact or is it your theory?<br />Your theory does make alot of sense and if Tuon is a DF... ill be mad hehe.


created: 2003-02-13 18:43:48
subject: <b>Damane trainer...</b>
body:
&lt;center&gt;Notices how when we first meet Tuon she is commenting on how she feels about training damane?  And how although she isn't a sul'dam she enjoys training them?  This sets it up perfectly for her to be the one to put the leash on Rand (although the very idea of the a'dam makes me convulse with WOT anger....)...<br /><br />Simply said....Please Light no!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Snakes and Foxes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to blind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />Snakes and Foxes</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 17:48:58
subject: <b>How?</b>
body:
There are just a few facts here I think I should point out...<br /><br />A)Tuon is bound and gaged...she's not hiding the a'dam on her person because you'll remember that she always wears form fitting clothes to flaunt herself.  <br /><br />B)Tuon has no idea that Mat is connected with Rand.  Granted Anath may have told her something but without the info we have to assume that Mat is just Tylins Toy.  <br /><br />C)Notice Tuon's reaction when Mat says she's my wife:<br />&quot;Tuon stared, but her expression was absolutley unreadable, hiding every thought behind those dark eyes.&quot;<br />WH, &quot;What the Aelfinn Said&quot; Page 687.  <br />To me this sounds like the kind of reaction one would have if they knew in advance they were going to marry somebody and it just slapped them in the face.  Suppose the fortelling that Tuon's damane had was that she would marry a man she met in Randland.  I imagine she would be upset over hearing that from her damane and shocked when faced with it...much like Mat is.  <br /><br />All in all I hate to have to disagree after posting agreemance earlier.  Just went back and reread some of it and looked over the facts....all in all I'd say that she is happy because she has found what her damane told her she would...and it's not too bad.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Snakes and Foxes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to blind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />Snakes and Foxes</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 15:36:07
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
This has nothing to do with Rand!  This has to do with Mat and Tuon.  This has to do with Lidya's fortune telling.  What two things does Mat fear most? Death and marrige.  So what else could he be shivering for.  Next you'll say its the weather. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Forever


created: 2003-03-08 21:38:05
subject: <b>shes staying with mat - COT spoilier</b>
body:
in COT Tuon mentions that Mat shouldnt be afraid of her escaping because she keeps her word. Tuon proved it to him at more than one instance.  Maybe she is not really that honorable, but she just wants to keep the fact that shes on a mission to capture Rand with the a'dam a secret.  ahh...logic


created: 2003-05-26 17:26:48
subject: <b>-</b>
body:
I see it hard to belive that she have tha a'dam (&lt;-- spelling all wrong right?) with her right now. Since she were ripper out just from walking in the palace.


created: 2003-08-10 22:32:25
subject: <b>question...</b>
body:
could someone explain when she came into possession of the bracelet... did she get it from suroth already? or are we just assuming that she has it... im confused.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 16:06:26
subject: <b>wait, Tuon put the adam on Rand?</b>
body:
correct me if im wrong, but I thoght only a woman channeler could use a female adam on a woman channeler. if a man was at either end, both would experience great pain. So... how could a woman (channeler?) put the adam on rand?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-10 16:55:18
subject: <b>Several things...</b>
body:
(Sorry if I seem vehement in this post, but this theory is driving me nuts.)<br /><br />1. Suroth has the a'dam. WHY WOULD A DARKFRIEND HAND OVER SOMETHING SO VALUABLE TO A NON-DARKFRIEND? Yes, Tuon believes he must kneel, BUT SHE STILL IS NOT A DARKFRIEND.<br /><br />2. How could she have the a'dam with her? What, is it stuffed up her shift or something? Did she bring a little knapsack with her that I don't know about? What? She was ABDUCTED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT for heavens' sake, TIED UP AND GAGGED. When did she have time to take the a'dam with her? <br /><br />3. SHE WAS DISGUISED AS A HIGH LADY. Do you remember that? Do you remember that she decided to wear a veil when she first landed, making EVERYONE pretend she was just a High Lady? So how is she dangerous to Rand, then? Hm, I don't know. MAYBE THE FACT THAT'S SHE'S THE FREAKING DAUGHTER OF THE NINE MOONS INSTEAD OF A HIGH LADY.<br /><br />4. IF TUON HAS THE A'DAM, WHY IS SUROTH PLANNING TO MEET UP WITH RAND? Seems a perfect opportunity to whip it out, slap it around his neck, and smash him to his knees. <br /><br />I mean, really. Shallow? Nobody knows she's the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and if they do, they have to pretend she isn't. I would think that finding out that she has the power to bring every Seanchan citizen crashing down around Rand's head is danger enough, when he's just expecting a shaky, temporary stalemate between the two nations until the Last Battle. Shallow? The man just met his FUTURE WIFE. A wife who's being kidnapped in the middle of the night, whisked out into a storm, and still acts as if she is still in control of everything. That would make anybody shiver. Shallow? He just fulfilled his half of the marriage ceremony without even knowing it. It's now completely up to her whethere they wed or not, and she knows it. I would have done more than smile; I would have laughed my ass off.


created: 2005-09-17 01:37:00
subject: <b>I also don't think</b>
body:
that Tuon has it. I think that Suroth is planning to use it her own way (or the way she has been instructed to) in her own time, having nothing to do with Tuon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-08 15:46:54
subject: <b>Hehe, you need to calm down, Almira.</b>
body:
You have to remember this theory was written well before CoT was released.  Post-CoT, it's impossible to believe the male a'dam is not still in the possession of Suroth and/or SemiAnath.<br /><br />I seem to recall that when I wrote it, the driving idea was that Tuon wanted to go with Mat because she expected him to lead her to Rand.  The a'dam was simply a possible explanation for why she was dangerous to him.  Of course, the way I ended up writing it, the theory seems to be more about the a'dam than about Tuon's motivations.  My bad.<br /><br />Unfortunately, for all the time Tuon gets in CoT, we still have little more idea of her plans or motivations than we did before.  I'm still convinced that Tuon was smiling for reasons other than wanting to be with Mat. I just no longer have any idea what those reasons are.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-18 16:32:05
subject: <b>NO!</b>
body:
&quot;Many assume that Tuon is smiling because she wants to be with Mat, and that he shivers because he dreads being married. I don't believe either character is so shallow. I believe Tuon is smiling because Mat is playing into her hands by taking her with him. She may even know exactly who Mat is (from Anath). Mat shivers because he senses something sinister about Tuon's smile.&quot;<br /><br />when she asks about the dragon reborn he lies to her, at the end of the book she learns that he knew him AND grew up in the same village. AND WAS PISSED! and suprised she missed the lie.<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-16 14:55:33
subject: <b>just because</b>
body:
Just because we know the taint is gone does not mean that everyone will accept it as fact. I believe that Rand (or any other male channie) will have a problem convincing anyone that the taint is gone that saidin is clean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 16:40:09
subject: <b>Change is difficult...</b>
body:
Even though the Taint is gone, only male channelers know that. Everyone else will just keep on being afraid of them going mad and killing everyone, disbelieving the claims that saidin is clean.<br />RJ said in an interview that even though the Taint is gone, the Sharans would keep on breeding and killing the male Ayyad.<br />I don't know whether saidin has adapted to the conditions of the Third Age. 3,000 years is a mere moment on the cosmic scale, after all. The universe (and Time) is too vast to be concerned with a tiny planet inhabited by a puny species with ambitions to be gods. Did the books actually said that almost all of the Asha'man were not born with the spark? I would reconsider my skepticism if evidence is brought forward.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 18:33:26
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
...This theory wasn't a comment on whether or not people would accept that the taint is gone but the theory is a valid one IMHO.<br /><br />It attempts to answer the question of why so many more female channelers have been found in the past as compared to male.  Yes the White Tower is a shadow of what it once was but they still have more girls show up each year then the Reds find men to gentle.<br /><br />I like the theory but only have one question.  Do we KNOW that men didn't ALWAYS have the tendency to need to be taught to touch the source?  In the AOL, they would have probably tested everyone sort of like the a'dam testing of women.  So, they would find all the men/women who could channel at all.  Thus, maybe, men don't tend to touch the source naturally but women do.  <br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2002-09-16 23:13:54
subject: <b>it has always been recessive</b>
body:
i think i remember from the big white book it said channeling is a recessive trait. always has been. only like 3-4 percent of the population in the age of legends could channel. as for why so many men are being found who have to be taught, look at how many women who have to be taught are being picked up by the salidar aes sedai. they are picking up even more than the men i think. so if i am right on all these points this theory is pretty moot. maybe i am wrong though. if i am don't be afraid to let me know<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ignorance is not just bliss, it is a house that i live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />                                 -Wayne Brady<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 23:27:34
subject: <b>Gaeran...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>RJ said in an interview that even though the Taint is gone, the Sharans would keep on breeding and killing the male Ayyad.</b></font><br /><br />Could you tell me when he said this, and possibly supply the link?<br /><br />I don't recall seeing this said anywhere, nor do I think RJ would disclose this information, but if you have the interview transcript then I am obviously incorrect.<br /><br />Regarding the theory, I totally agree. RJ's world is all about balance (as any Molson Ex beer drinker will tell you) and therefore the number of channelers born with the spark must balance as well.<br /><br />Well done, it's something I've certainly never considered.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 01:38:11
subject: <b>Not nature, but the culling</b>
body:
I think we can assume that yes, there are less men with the spark, as mentioned in the Tower records, but this is because the men who had the spark got killed/stilled/died of the Taint, most before having kids. Therefore, they don't pass on the gene for channeling without being taught, therefore, it becomes very rare. Simple enough. The women with the spark become rarer too, but they are not actively killed and roughly 3/4 DO survive to have kids, as very very few of the whole number of them go to the Tower (only 1000 AS!), so it continues.<br /><br />And the Ayyad comment thing; RJ said yes, <i>if</i> saidin is now clean, then the Sharans will continue to kill their male channelers as they kill them anyway before they can begin to channel, so they wouldn't notice the difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 07:22:33
subject: <b>No mutation, just plain genetics</b>
body:
I agree with the basic premise of this theory.  It follows basic genetics that channeling is a rare recessive trait where someone with one chromosone can be taught and someone with 2 has the 'spark'.  The reason we don't see many men with the 'spark' is because they just have not been featured in the story line.  Taim came back from one of the first recruiting missions with a boy who had the spark.  I am rereading the series again so I am sure I will come across that reference pretty soon.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Where do I sign up?


created: 2002-09-17 14:41:12
subject: <b>Perhaps it was always like that.</b>
body:
I agree with what you say - I hadn't noticed the smaller number of male channellers with the spark myself, but now it's pointed out I see you're right. However, it might be within the nature of <i>saidin</i> to be like that anyway. &lt;i/Saidin&lt;/i&gt; seems to remain more hidden than <i>saidar</i>as it is: female channellers can instantly tell whether someone can channel, and what their potential is; men have to do the resonance test, and no-one, not they nor anyone else, will ever know their potential until it is reached. Women see a glow; men don't. It could be that, in accordance with this pattern, there is a smaller proportion of male chanellers with the spark than of female, although there are the same number overall. I mean, I realise you've rightly pointed out that this is the case now, but it could be that it was always like that. Wonder if we'll ever know...?<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 18:36:06
subject: <b>P Floyd...</b>
body:
Here is a transcript of that interview you asked for:<br />(Got this from THUS SPAKE THE CREATOR)<br />http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator.htm<br />Q: Is the Shara world going to be changed a lot now that their male channelers won't go mad? Will they even find out because they kill them so early anyhow? <br />A: Shara will not be changed by the fact that male channelers wont go mad because they kill man who might possibly be able to channel at a very young age those guys are nothing but breeding stock kept utterly innocent and utterly ignorant until they are killed.<br />As to why RJ revealed so much, here it is:<br />Q: In a previous statement, I believe you had basically said that the action of the series would take place in the lands known to Rand and his friends, i.e. not Shara or Seanchan, and yet the new book has a lot of stuff about those lands. Have you changed your mind? Is action in either of these two lands a possibility now? <br />A: No. Except for the possible occasional divergence -- except for Rand's excursions to Seanchan when he chased after Aviendha. I was willing to put as much as I did into the guide because I will not be using those things in the books in the same way that I used Kandor or Saldaea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 20:59:54
subject: <b>It was always recessive</b>
body:
So, are you saying the ability to channel saidin was a dominant trait in the Age of Legends?<br /><br />I think it was always recessive, and that's why only a small percentage of the population could channel, even in the AoL.  The reason we haven't heard about any other men born with the spark is because it would get real boring real fast.  We know about Rand, Logain, Taim, and Narishma having the spark because they're all (relatively) major characters.  We know some of the major character female channelers born with the spark, but we certainly don't know the status of all of the major female characters.<br /><br />Can you imagine if Jordan had to work in the status of all the Ashaman?<br /><br />Rand: &quot;Taim!  What are you doing here!  This is the 93rd time I've told you not to come near me!&quot;<br />Taim: &quot;But my Lord Dragon, I had to tell you about this Ashaman born with the spark!  Let me tell you all about him, and then never mention him again throughout the remaining 4 or 5 books.&quot;<br /><br />What a drag.<br />That's my two cents.<br /><br />Shani


created: 2002-09-18 01:38:35
subject: <b>Wilders..</b>
body:
My opinion about why there is not as many men born with the spark as women is because either they died trying to learn how to control Saidin (1 of 4 women born with the spark dies at this point), or either they were hunted and gentled by the Red Ajah (it is its only purpose...).<br />So I think that is an explanation, women are more numberous because they are discovered and taught more than stilled or dead.<br />Here we are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 06:45:29
subject: <b>Hocus Pocus Genetics</b>
body:
Its a nice idea that the ability to channel Saidin has become hidden until times of desperate need but I think most people will agree less folk are being born with the spark, both men and women, due to the 'culling'.<br /><br />I mean just about every character goes on about how much weaker Aes Sedai are now, how few there are, how less men who can channel are found each year, etc.<br /><br />Saidin hasn't gone into hiding its just being wiped out over time along with Saidar.<br /><br />Just shooting off at a tangent; if everything is meant to balance does the amount of channellers (with their special powers - just read Dumai's Wells, where channellers kick ass with ease) balance with the amount of normal bods? I mean get 5 channellers verses say a million crazed savages and who will come out on top? <br /><br />Less Channellers, less people. Where's the balance?<br /><br />Anyway I've got to get myself a more exciting job.<br /><br />Dai Lau<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> &#8220;Relativity of time: <br />Hours in the arms of a hot woman seem to last seconds. Seconds at work seem to last for hours.&#8221;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-18 10:16:11
subject: <b>RE: Genetic mutation of saidin</b>
body:
I wasn't trying to imply that the channeling gene had changed, but rather adapted to guarantee its survival. Think of it more like a chameleon changing its colour to blend in with its background. <br /><br />As far as Narishma is concerned, surely the fact that he is the only other man mentioned to be born with the spark highlights how unusual it is. If the idea was to show that there were others who were born with the spark, wouldn't it be better to slot in a couple more? <br /><br />In fact, Rand chooses Narishma to retrieve Callandor partly because the latter <i>was</i> the only other born with the spark. Besides, it wouldn't be too hard to show that other men have the spark; we are told plenty of women have the spark during more general descriptions of the characters. I think the omission is a deliberate one on RJ's part to illustrate Narishma's status. And, it backs up my argument to a certain extent. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-18 12:19:21
subject: <b>Saidin beacon</b>
body:
I believe that the ratio of male channelers born with the spark and male channelers who could learn how to touch the True Source is the same as that of the Aes Sedai. It's much harder to detect the sparked wilders than to find those who could learn. Thereby, these wilders are relatively easy for the Red Ajah to detect.<br />After the Aiel War, the Red Ajah and Black Ajah went out on a pogrom against all lucky men. I propose that some, if not most, of these &quot;lucky&quot; men were born with the spark. They were gentled and/or killed by the Red and Black Sisters, thus leading to the apparent imbalance between wilders and 'learners' among the Asha'man.<br />Perhaps if we were to tally up the number of those who were gentled in the &quot;vileness after the Aiel War&quot; along with the number of Asha'man, we would find the same ratio of wilders and learners as among the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Would that be one of the reasons why Ishamael was so upset with Jarna Malari? Had these wilders lived, there would be more chaos and madness, perhaps even more False Dragons around the time Rand proclaimed himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 19:47:47
subject: <b>pfft</b>
body:
It's great to go into all the details of genetics mutations and all the many many variables that factor into genetics and population genetics.  We could spend entire semesters at uni discussing these topics but it's all meaningless if Jordan hasn't studied these topics.  We can't analyse things that aren't there so let's just call it magic...


created: 2002-09-17 19:38:59
subject: <b>Why would Perrin make a deal with the enemy?</b>
body:
We have no idea why Perrin would feel he has to consider allying with an enemy, but it's there on the dust-jacket, ergo it's true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 20:06:24
subject: <b>whitecloaks</b>
body:
He will join up with the whitecloaks and they will fight the shaido.  That is the enemy told on the duskjacket.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Bringer of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 21:12:20
subject: <b>Somethings to note....</b>
body:
Uno says in TSR that Masema has always been a $%#hole.  It's that recently he's lost his mind. Demandred using compulsion?<br /><br />Also, Masema didn't give away there position in the mountains.  How would he accomplish this?  I believe that either months spent looking for Rand's party or the result of a male forsaken sensing Rand's channelling ( almost brought the mountain down at one point). Led the Fades and Trollocs to their hideout.<br /><br />Also, Masema didn't break off from the party on his own accord.  Moraine sent Masema and the rest of the Shinerians to a town in Ghealdan.  They were to wait there for further intructions from Moraine.  The intructions never came as we now know from Uno.  Uno says that it was at this point while waiting for word from Moraine that Masema started spewing the talk and gathering followers.  This is also the time were he starts to go crazy.  <br /><br />It's my belief that Masema had a run in with Demandred while waiting for Moraine's intructions.  Whether or not Masema is a Darkfriend doesn't matter.  He is still causing problems for Rand.  <br /><br />We also see from Naill's point of view in LOC, that he is letting Masema commit terrible crimes in the name of the Dragon.  This worked well with Naill's plan to unite the nations behind himself.  Naill went to great lenghts to cause havoc for Rand.  One of them was to allow Masema to become what he has.  Although even with Naill allowing Masema to grow.  Masema still required outside assistance ( Demmy ).  At this point Masema has become a problem. <br /><br /> Their is one other who might be responsible for Masema's change.  I'm working with GG to put together a theory that includes Masema, Mat and Egwene.  As soon as it's done I will post it.<br /><br />Well I have lost my train off thought again.<br /><br />Good-bye for now,<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 22:27:29
subject: <b>A couple of more thoughts</b>
body:
In response to Burr's comment I say that Perrin could be forced to make a deal with Masema because Perrin's group is fairly small compared to the large mass of Shaido they're going to run into.  When Perrin sees how large the group of Shaido is he'll be desperate and grab at any alliance that will help him rescue Faile.<br />  In response to the main post I agree with all but a few small points, the main one being:  I think Masema was the one that Bors saw at the gathering and that the subliminal suggestions given to him by Ishy were along the lines of &quot;do what you can to disrupt Rand's plans but when it appears he's winning (or, &quot;if he wins a major battle&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, too bad Masema, you'll have to go insane and start causing chaos in his name&quot;.  I think that's the whole reason he's acting so nutty and giving Rand a bad name.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-17 23:23:31
subject: <b>Way off Traveler</b>
body:
to The Traveler,  Saying that Masema was at the meeting and not Ingtar is wishful thinking on your part I'm sorry to say.  I'm sure that if you took some time to think on it you would agree.  If after you've thought about it and still can't figure it out, just let me know and I will do what I can for you.<br /><br />Everything points to Ingtar and only wishfull thinking to Masema.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 05:49:07
subject: <b>Way off Columbo</b>
body:
The Darkfriend Social in TGH was obviously meant for high Darkfriends. Such an important meeting would not be wasted by just any Darkfriend who happened to be available.<br /><br />And by no means was Ingtar a Darkfriend of high rank. By his personallity alone do we know this. Why did he turn to the shadow? Not because of hatred or greed, but because of the apathy the world has shown his people's strife. Twisted? Yes. Stupid?  Definitely. Butbelieve that such a mind set would bring him to any high rank  in the DF orginization? Not likely.<br /><br />Masema, on the other hand, has a much more vain personality type that seems to fit the bill. Plus his extreme turnaround can very likely be a trigger to the compulsion/instructions Ba'alsamon gave at the DFS.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 07:09:56
subject: <b>&quot;Darkfriendness&quot; of Masema</b>
body:
myself, i am not sure that Masema truly is a Darkfriend.... My guess is that he is a tool of darkfriends or Forsaken....<br />We know Niall intended to let Masema bring chaos, but is he the first to have the idea? I d rather see Demandred's touch in it - he has to spread chaos too- and if I remember well- , he likes to use proxies.... I don't think we can link the prologue of TGH to Masema, i 've always though and I think that the Shienarian was Ingtar (maybe from details like his stance, his &quot;class&quot; )<br />So i tend to favor Masema not being a Darkfriend but being used for Darkfriends' means...<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Stormbringer  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-18 09:56:49
subject: <b>What if.....</b>
body:
It's just a thought, but what if its the Shaido he makes the deal with since they're the ones who have his wife....Not saying that I think this WILL BE the case...just a thought.


created: 2002-09-18 10:14:20
subject: <b>hum...</b>
body:
i hardly see Perrin making a deal with people he hates (although he did one with the whitecloaks in Edmond's Field) and i don't think shaidos could make a deal with perrin: what perrin could give them is rand (sevanna being obsessed by him) and perrin would never do that... i hope...<br />I myself think that perrin will kind of ally with masema (he has the numbers) in order to rescue Faile, but i think faile will get out of this mess by herself; like the good girl she is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ... <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Stormbringer  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-18 12:52:48
subject: <b>Whitecloaks all the way</b>
body:
It would be very disappointing if Masema turned out to be a darkfriend.  What makes RJ a great writer is the variety of characters: not every hero is a saint and not every bad guy is... a bad guy.  Masema is a power-hungry, religous fanatic.  Making him a darkfriend with sinister intentions is greatly trivializing his character.  That's not to say that others haven't taken advantage of his zeal, but he's no darkfriend.


created: 2002-09-18 14:54:41
subject: <b>Why did Masema go crazy and when?</b>
body:
The main questions that we need to address in order to understand Masema is why did he go crazy and when?<br /><br />In order to answer why we first must answer when.  It seems to me that Masema started going wacko sometime between the portal stone in tGH and when Rand left the mountains in the beginning of the next book tDR.  I am basing this purely on his actions.  Being a mere fanatic doesn't seem to fully describe how Masema treats Rand in the beginning of tDR.(Perrin doesn't smell the madness in him at the time, but I am unsure how far his scent of emotions has developed at that time.) This happens over a very narrow window of time.  (I guess it is possible to argue that Masema has always been crazy but that it took the Dragon Reborn the ta'veren associated with that to bring it to a head.  I don't think that is the case though.)<br /><br />Masema went crazy during a time period that it was unlikely the Forsaken knew where he was or was able to directly manipulate him.  He was hiding with Rand in the mountains.  This leaves only a few options.<br /><br /><ol><li>(As suggested above) He had orders placed into his <br />subconcience at the DF meeting by Ishamael</li><br /><li>Ishamael or another Forsaken did the deed in Masema's dreams</li><br /><li>it is a ta'veren effect</li><br /></ol><br /><br />The main trouble is I don't like any of these options.  The first two requires that Masema be a DF (he is not ta'veren to pull Ishamael to his dreams.)  The third really isn't an answer at all.  I don't think that Masema is a DF for one simple reason.  When Masema went through the portal stones he came out crying.  <i>He doesn't like what he becomes.</i>  One plausible explanation of his crying is that he becomes a crazy fanatic bringing destruction in the majority of his alternative lives.  I don't think a DF would have the same reaction.  Although he might be crying for a different reason.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 15:39:19
subject: <b>Entyti?????????????</b>
body:
It seems all the intellectuals are out.  Is it a full moon.  I will not waste my time with you Entyti.  Sorry.  You will have to go it alone.  To even suggest that Ingtar would not qualify as a high level darkfreind is ignorant.  Ingtar is well respected and happens to be a Lord in Shinear with alot of pull.  Someone who has influence, if I've lost you Entyti.  Just to mention a couple things that point to Ingtar as thats all the time I'll spend for your benefit Entyti.<br /><br />1. The Shinerian at the DF meeting was wearing a yellow coat ( Ingtar's color )<br />2. The Shinerian carried himself like a soldier/ Lord.<br />3. Lan notices Ingtar's return and ponders why Ingtar had been gone on an extended hunting trip.  He also happens to be returning alone.<br />4. We know that Ingtar was a DARKFREIND!<br /><br />The rest is up to you ENTYTI.<br /><br />AS FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO MASEMA? I'LL SHARE WITH YOU ALL.<br /><br />FAIN HAPPENED TO MASEMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  FAIN BRUSHED MASEMA IN SHINEAR AND HE HAS BEEN GETTING PROGRESIVELY WORSE EVER SINCE.  SOMEONE MENTIONED THAT PERRIN NOTED THAT MASEMA AND HIS FOLLOWERS REMINDED HIM OF SHADAR LOGOTH.  FOR THE REST YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT FOR MY THEORY.  IT ENVOLVES ALOT MORE THAN FAIN AND MASEMA.<br /><br />COLUMBO IS ON THE CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 19:35:36
subject: <b>Galina</b>
body:
I think is going to be Galina, she is under the power of the Shaido and she wants to escape, she can help and obviously she is the enemy, as she is a darkfriend, and I can't imagine Perrin dealing with someone he knows is a Darkfriend, so Galina fulfils all the requirements...


created: 2002-09-18 19:36:48
subject: <b>Masema is trying NOT to be a darkfriend</b>
body:
No need to be rude Columbo, their ideas are just as valid as yours. Personally I don't think Masema is a darkfriend at all, I agree that would cheapen his character into just another bad guy. As to why he went nuts, well, I think we just about answered it before. When Masahen went through the portal stones he saw that he was a darkfriend in other worlds, and it terrified him, and made him come out crying. After that he was worried about his soul, and became a complete fanatic to try and prove to himself that he is good and isn't a darkfriend afterall.


created: 2002-09-18 20:03:47
subject: <b>Sorry Entyti!</b>
body:
This stupid series gets me fired up and I apologize for being rude.  Its obvious by the varying comments that we are not sure of Masema and my Theory isn't fool proof.  One of my faults is that I get an idea in my head and then don't consider anything else.  Sorry for being a p$#%@.  I'm also pissed the RJ's book isn't done yet and my inability to nail done Demandred.<br /><br />I never suggested that Masema was a DF.  Fain can sense if someone has even thought of being a DF.  That is part of my Theory RE; Fain and Masema.  Fain sensed that about Masema and brushed him.  Masema has been getting progressively worse ever since.<br /><br />It seems I'm divulging more of my theory.<br /><br />At one point in LOC from Fain's POV.  He thinks on his ability to sense DF's and his tricks.  He also reveals that he has employed his tricks on Elaida and Naill.  He says that they will never trust Rand because of what he's done to them.<br /><br />I have evidense that points to the same being employed with Mat and Egwene.  One of the main reasons Fain let them live in Fal Dara is to cause problems for Rand.  Realizing their closeness and importance to Rand, Fain left them alive to cause trouble for Rand.  Fain employed his tricks and the result is Mat and Egwene having little or no trust of Rand.  Mat and Egwene do not trust Rand as they once did.  As a result Rand is wary of them as well.<br /><br />Well I hope to put all the evidense together and post my theory soon.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 00:36:38
subject: <b>I see two good theories...</b>
body:
... about what made Masema crazy.  Columbo's theory about Fain brushing him in Fal Dara seems very likely.  I remembered Niall and Elaida, but I've never considered he might have done the same to Mat and Egwene.  Now Mat was already affected by carrying the dagger, and the healing he received in TV may have helped him to shrug any further effect off.  That's why Mat is still able to work with Rand.  Egwene however... Rand may be &quot;feeling her anger&quot; a little worse than I previously expected.<br /><br />But there's another possibility.  RabidWombat suggested that Masema's personality changed after going through the portal stone.  That by itself could have been enough to tip a weak mind over the edge.<br /><br />As for Perrin's deal with the devil.  I originally thought he would join up with the Whitecloaks.  They've been constantly held up as Perrin's special enemy throughout the series.  However, he's made deals with Whitecloaks before (TSR), and they never held up their end of the bargain.  I still think it's going to be them, but somebody's going to have to do a lot of fast talking...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 02:00:32
subject: <b>I agree about Galina!</b>
body:
I mean, I think this theory is good- in fact I gave it a thumbs up because I think it's more plausible than most.  However, I _DO_ think that a deal will come in some form with Galina as well. She's not there for kicks- she is definitely with the Shaido for a REASON.  let's find out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 11:29:08
subject: <b>Fain theory</b>
body:
I must admit the idea Fain may have brushed Masema (maybe in Fal dara while in jail) is quite brilliant but i don't like the idea of &quot;mixing&quot; fain with Mat or Egwene. I mean, Rand and Egwene have changed a lot, have many responsibilities, and can't trust each other as they used to. NO need to see Fain's hand in it...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Stormbriner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-20 16:07:08
subject: <b>Re: Galina</b>
body:
Perrin knows who she is.  Rand said, when Rhuarc reported to him before leaving Dumai's Wells, &quot;I'd give almost anything to have Galina...&quot; and he stroked his swordhilt.  This was Perrin's POV, so he would know the name Galina.  Now people seem to forget stuff at an amazing rate in WoT, but she can't do much to help constrained by the appearance of the Three Oaths, and the fact that a word from a Therava, who has a definite inerest in her, and would be unlikely to let her alone long enough to contact Perrin, would stop anything she could do.  I think the enemy he deals with will be the Seanchan, or possibly the Whitecloaks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-20 21:16:44
subject: <b>&quot;Let the lord of CHAOS rule&quot;</b>
body:
The DO gave this command a while ago, and I think that Masema has been a very useful instrument of chaos.  He's turning nations against Rand.  He's spreading poverty and famine and such.  He's confusing the &amp;@*% out of people.  He's created a huge nasty Dragon cult.<br /><br />Whether or not he really IS a Darkfriend remains to be seen, but I doubt it matters.  He's insane.  He is helping the Shadow side whether he understands it or not.<br /><br />So many CRAZY PEOPLE!  Galina is sort of off-kilter too.  Anyway, I agree about Galina.  She is a high ranking Darkfriend and she's too close to Faile to not be used in the plot.  She is planning to steal that Oath Rod.<br /><br />And let's not forget that Suroth- a HUGE Darkfriend- has been secretly chatting with Masema.<br /><br />When Perrin has to make his deal, it will be for love (to save Faile of course), but he'll have to support some anti-Rand cause and go against Rand's orders.  Two possibilities that I see:<br /><br />1) Sevannah and the Shaido bind him by the Oath rod for their use, or force him to serve them in some other way, and Galina ends up running the show.<br /><br />2) Suroth, Masema, and later Anath (aka Semirhage) force Perrin to serve them, and perhaps manipulate him into bringing Rand into their hands so they can put that male a'dam on him.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-09-26 11:52:13
subject: <b>not Galina, the Shaido, Masema or the Seanchan...</b>
body:
...but the Shadow itself.<br /><br />I think you need to take another look at the dust jacket text for CoT. :<br /><br />&quot;Perrin Aybara seeks to free his wife, Faile, a captive of the Shaido, but his only hope may be an alliance with the enemy. Can he remain true to his friend Rand, and to himself? For his love of Faile, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Perrin is willing to sell his soul. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> &quot;<br /><br />I've just finished re-reading the series, and in the last several books have noticed Perrin's decline. He started out being quite duty-minded, responsible; doing the right thing (yet not as bullheaded about it as Galad) despite what it might cost him. Now, in the last several books you see him becoming less responsible except when it comes to Faile (who I somewhat suspect of being a DF, but I'm not sure yet; and I'd hate that because I like her). I don't have the books with me so I can't quote &quot;chapter and verse,&quot; but I remember him saying such things as (paraphrasing) &quot;Burn them all! They can all burn, as long as Faile is safe!&quot; and in his POVs thinking along the lines of nothing matters except Faile.{at the same time, notice how Mat is becoming more and more of a &quot;responsible adult&quot;}<br />   I'm thinking that Perrin has a Crossroads (intentional) he must reach in this book, and it can be symbolized by his choice of axe or hammer. Remember Elyas told him to throw the axe away if he ever started liking using it. I predict Perrin will realize he enjoys chopping Shaido to pieces with his axe while trying to rescue Faile. He might even, for a time, fall to the Dark Side of the For-- um, to the Shadow.<br />   Wouldn't that be something: Dain Bornhald and company stumble across Perrin shortly after he swears oaths to the Dark One, oaths he believes will rescue Faile, and are finally proven right that Perrin Goldeneyes is indeed a Darkfriend. Now, I don't think Perrin will stay a DF for long, he'll be redeemed by Berelain (or Berelain AND Faile together). At which point he'll give up the axe, and maybe even decide to go Tinker and follow the Way of the Leaf (not really that likely that last part though).<br />   So Perrin's Crossroads could (and most likely will) see him fall to the Shadow for some time, a harbinger of Rand's fate of being turned to the Shadow during (or just before) Tarmon Gaidon, making it necessary for Mat to kill Rand (of course this ties into another theory I'm working on about how Mat is the REAL hero of this war). <br />   I'm not yet sure what Mat's (and Rand's) Crossroads is yet, but when I have an idea, I'll let you know. In the meantime, flame away.<br /><br />imlad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />an occasional poster<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />, <br />a regular lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />,<br />addict of the WOT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-12 20:04:08
subject: <b>I think that it will be Masema, but...</b>
body:
I also think that it will be Masema, but I'm not sure. I think that Colombo had several very good points. However I would like to shed some light on Masema's abrupt turn around. In the theory tVoLT states:<br />&quot; even though Masema was eager to reach Rand &quot;as quickly as possible&quot; - to do what, one might ask - he then abruptly decides to change course to follow Perrin, along with all his followers.&quot;<br />He does this after he learns that Faile has been captured by the Shaido. Early on in the series we learn that Masema absolutely hates the Aiel. In fact I think that it's the main reason that he dislikes Rand so much in the beginning, Rand of course is the 'spittin image' of an Aiel. Anyway I think that Masema would be willing to do most anything to fight Aiel. So when Perrin mentions his problem, Masema is not only willing to abruptly change directions, but he also is even willing to Travel through a Gateway. Something that he said he would never do. His hatred of the Aiel is that great. (btw I wonder if his is the 'missing army' that brought Suroth rushing back to Ebou Dar?)In any case I don't find his change of direction very surprising in light of his hatred of the Aiel.<br /><br />NaClH2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 14:39:00
subject: <b>Theory Holes</b>
body:
&quot;Most people now assume that this was Ingtar, who admitted to Rand that he was a Darkfriend at Falme but &quot;redeemed&quot; himself.&quot;<br /><br />To further prove that it was Ingtar, I give this following quote:<br /><br />'&quot;Ingtar's with them.&quot; Lan sounded as if his thoughts were elsewhere. &quot;Back from his hunting at last. Been gone long enough.' - TGH, ch1<br /><br />I always connected that to Ingtar's being in the Darkfriend meeting after my second reading of the series.<br /><br /><br />________<br /><br /><br />&quot;However, we know that Masema never liked Rand throughout TGH&quot;<br /><br />Masema's hatred of Rand was explained because of his hatred of Aiel.<br /><br /><br /><br />________<br /><br /><br />&quot;Furthermore, in Chapter 5 of TDR, who led the Trollocs to the secret camp in the mountains?&quot;<br /><br />It was Rand's uncontrolled channeling that told the Myrddraal where their camp was, as they can sense channeling.<br /><br />If a traitor would have tipped them off (Which I can't see how he could, without others noticing, since there were only around 25 people in the camp, and because of the state of constant vigilance they were in, his disappearance would have been noticed immediately.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously&quot; - Hubert H. Humphrey</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 15:42:08
subject: <b>Sevanna</b>
body:
Masema's just one poor cookie who started has had a wretched life, with all his friends (probably) being killed by the Aiel, his captain (Ingtar)dying, etc. Being fanatically for Rand is just something to replace that. The Whitecloaks are the same way, so it is not an unusual thing in WoT. Anyway, he's already made a deal with Masema, and Masema is helping him, so he's not going to make another one.<br />I too think Galina is likely, or maybe with Sevanna. Maybe Perrin will offer himself as a willing slave to Sevanna to save Faile (its the sort of wool-headed thing he'd do :-)), and Sevanna would not be the first Rand-obsessed woman to switch to Perrin (Berelain). That is the enemy he makes a deal with, but maybe Berelain and Faile will rescue him be means of some cunning device (such as killing all the Aiel they can find).<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar!! Tai'Shar Qo'nos! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-11 23:01:32
subject: <b>Bryce of House Slobochevski'i</b>
body:
Why couldn't the &quot;deal with the enemy&quot; be w/ Berelain? Remember her offering a &quot;truce&quot; after Faile was taken?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brutus de Petrovichski<br /><br />If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made of meat???<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 15:21:19
subject: <b>Perrin + Sevanna</b>
body:
Sevanna switches from being obsessed about Rand to being obsessed about Perrin?  THREE WHINING, ANNOYING, OH-SO-HATEABLE WOMEN IN LOVE FOLLOWING PERRIN AROUND?  I think I would go insane.  Berelain and Faile are more than enough.  Perrin will spit Sevanna (and hopefully the other two as well, but there's not much chance of that) on the end of his bloody axe.<br /><br />And I will laugh with joy.


created: 2002-09-19 14:58:45
subject: <b>I just don't think it's clear enough...</b>
body:
that Tigraine couldn't be taught at all, to say the genetic theory is debunked.... you've certainly weakened it alot though.<br /><br />Rand isn't a great choice to work with either IMO.  He's the dragon and could very well be a special case.<br /><br />Those grays should do some research in this...  it'd take some time for them (generations depending on how thorough they'd like to be) but they could do it.  Should've already done it by now.


created: 2002-09-19 15:24:41
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Can you let me know what families have channeling running in them?  I can only think of one case where we&#8217;ve seen more then two people in the same family who can channel, but I might be forgetting some.<br /><br />If you know of a discussion of this, a link or address would be fine.<br />


created: 2002-09-19 16:41:34
subject: <b>One Question</b>
body:
I don't have access to the Guide but I thought it said that channeling was a double recessive gene.  This makes it sound like there are two sets of genes that are required for channeling.  Assuming my memory is correct this means one of your two are more likely B) but a different way to get there.<br /><br />one or the other complete set gives the ability to learn while having both complete sets give you the spark.  This might explain also why sparkers have a higher ability to channel (or so it seems) the more sets the higher the ability.


created: 2002-09-19 16:58:07
subject: <b>To: Justa Boy</b>
body:
I don't have the books to make 100% sure of this but I can think of 2 areas where multiple family members being able to touch the source are mentioned.<br /><br />1. Girls from Two Rivers.  If I recall correctly, there were a number that were from the same families.<br /><br />2. The Atha'an Miere who wants to become AS in WH.  She is at least 3rd generation of strong channelers and wants to go to the White Tower because she wont get a fair shake with her own people based on her family history.<br /><br />There are probably more (and I hope I remebered those above correctly) but, again, I don't have the books to check.


created: 2002-09-19 17:02:43
subject: <b>For the Record</b>
body:
The Guide refers to a recessive gene, but makes no mention of a double recessive gene, to my knowledge. If I had the Guide at close hand, I'd dig up the quote, but I recently moved and the Guide is buried in a box somewhere.<br /><br />The list of channelilng families is in the WotMania FAQ entry entitled &quot;Is Channeling Genetic?&quot;<br /><br />The examples are:<br /><br />1. Morgase Trakand &amp; her daughter Elayne<br />2. Moiraine Damodred &amp; her niece Elayne (through Taringail; Moiraine not related to Morgase)<br />3. Adeleas &amp; Vandene, real sisters<br />4. A reference to <i>damane</i> in WH: &quot;Dani and Dali, sisters who hardly needed a sul'dam's direction&quot;<br />5. The Atha'an Miere Din Gelyn family - from WH: &quot;My grandmother is Windfinder to the Wavemistress of Clan Rossaine,  my great-grandmother is Windfinder to Clan Dacan, and her sister to Clan Takana; my sister was kept an apprentice five years longer than normal, and my cousin six!&quot; Counting Talaan, Caire, and Tebreille, there are EIGHT channeling members of this family.<br />6. Not mentioned in the FAQ is a reference from TPOD. I don't have the exact quote, but Egwene is ruminating on all the new novices, and she mentioned a mother and daughter - saying the daughter would be stronger by far, one day.<br /><br />(The FAQ's reference to Amys and Aviendha is an error; they are related by marriage, but not by blood)<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-19 17:17:14
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
Also, have you considered what else Theory A) would mean? (Theory A being what I was trying to disprove)<br /><br />1. The parents of any channeler born with the spark would both be able to learn. This includes Bran &amp; Marin al'Vere, Taringail Damodred, as well as Moiraine &amp; Nynaeve's parents, whoever they were.<br /><br />2. Bran &amp; Marin have several daughters; each daughter would therefore have a 3 out of 4 chance of being able to channel or to learn. So would Galad Damodred and Gawyn Trakand.<br /><br />While it's always possible we really do have that many characters with untrained ability, I find it rather unlikely.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-19 18:21:49
subject: <b>Quote from the Guide</b>
body:
&quot;Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, only two to three percent of the population could channel.&quot;<br /><br />I haven't seen any other references to the genetic basis. I think this does lend credence to the idea that something beyond one pair of the genes is necessary to have the spark, but there's no way to know whether that's another pair of recessive genes or not...


created: 2002-09-19 23:03:13
subject: <b>I think you guys are thinking about this far too black and white</b>
body:
What I mean is, you guys always talk about it like there is only one pair that matters for all this. Like was mentioned by Burr, somebody like Morgase was just weak, so clearly there are other genes that play a roll, for sure one that would determine the strength of the channeling ability, and probably there are different sets for if a person has the spark or not. And let's not forget TALENTS! and strengths in the powers. Or even lets go further, what about Min, clearly she has some funky gene work going on to be able to foretell the future all the time, or maybe she is just a super ultra weak channeler with a strong foretelling ability, at any rate, clearly there is more then one pair of genes at work for the &#8220;magic&#8221; abilities presented in WoT. <br /><br />I have shied away from these gene theories because I really don't think there is enough evidence in the books to really tell us everything we would love to know. These theories are fun science, people are looking for answers with the information they have, but sadly, some of this stuff will probably just remain a mystery.<br /><br />That's my two Tar Valon Marks anyway, and probably my last on this gene stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 23:47:10
subject: <b>Genetics of It</b>
body:
Having studied genetics, I think theory B as originally posted is correct.  <br />There are two possibilities for channeling.  One is double-recessive.  It is pretty strong.  With the closed populations-Sea Folk, Aiel, Sharan-we see a higher rate of channeling than in Randland.  The reason for this is that female channelers are not taken out of the breeding pool, so to speak.  This has the effect of spreading the genes throughout the general population, increasing the chance of the double-recessive genes matching.  In Two Rivers, the same effect is seen with similar results.  In the small towns Egwene's army moved through, a similar stream of girls was found-the result of smaller towns having a higher percentage of families remain there for generations.  If one person has the gene, then it spreads to the whole population over time.  <br />In Randland, male channelers are killed and sometimes I think their families are too.  Female channelers, aside from village Wisdoms and the Kin, are removed from the population, lessening the availability of the gene to subsequent generations.<br /><br />The second theory, not mutually exclusive with the first, is that the genetic component is single-recessive and the strength and spark are just subject to factors that influence the degree to which a genetic trait is expressed.  For instance, our eyes are either blue or brown.  Under-expresson of brown can make a genetically brown-eyed person have blue eyes.  Various mixtures of factors make our eyes different colors.  In channeling, various factors influence strength.  The spark could simply be triggered by a certain amount of strength and some other factors.  <br /><br />Talents work the same way.  Over time, the Sea Folk have bred the best Windfinders possible-in strength as well as in Talent for weather-working.  They have selectively bred the Talent in their members.  Females with the Talent are more likely to rise in station and thus become more desireable wives for the men.  This spreads the Talent, although a lot less than pure genetics.  Environmental factors also play a role.  But when all the Sea Folk eat common food, live in a common area and with a similar life-style, environmental factors play less of a role.  Hence Sea Folk will always have the greatest collection of Windfinders.<br /><br />Of course, this is a fictional series in which RJ is the Creator, so all this science could just be a waste of my time typing, but hey, we hold Him to a higher standard, so maybe not.  Woody


created: 2002-09-20 00:11:43
subject: <b>Not genetic</b>
body:
Channeling should not be a genetic trait, it has to be soul-linked, otherwise what would have happened if LTT was reborn into a body without the correct genes? I seriously doubt that the reincarnation of any of the greatest channelers would not be able to channel at all. It is an integral part of their personally, and therefore very important that they carry it over to the next life. And what about the Chosen 'Gars? They were plonked in new bodies, and were still able to channel, and we were certainly not told that they had any less power (and we would have been). You say that the Dark One could have found them bodies that were equally able to channel, you say? Well, possibly, but the Chosen are so powerful, you'd think there wouldn't be a whole lot of choice out there for the Dark One to pick bodies out of. If it does run in familes? Well, maybe it is never remarked when it doesn't? You have only a few examples, this could be due to chance, or just the pattern. Plus most of the examples are among the high born, which will also be more commented upon.<br /><br />So if RJ said it was genetic, there are two possibilites: genetics works funny here, and is changed by the soul that possesses the body (hey, why not?), OR Jordan does not fully understand genetics, and has some funny ideas out there (afterall, it is a fantasy book, who cares if there are unrealistic facts). Personally, I think it is the second, as the quote that was used from the guide is &quot;Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, only two to three percent of the population could channel.&quot; Now, if you know genetics, you know that recessive does not mean rare. The Blood group 'O' is recessive, and it is the most common blood type. Anyway, we can't expect him to get things right all the time, so there is no point over-interptreting these type of things, as they are probably mistakes.


created: 2002-09-20 00:31:34
subject: <b>So many different people</b>
body:
Aes Sedai, Finns, Wolf Brothers, Oiger, Min's (hey that rhymes with Finn), Spark Borners, Channeling Learners, Dream walkers, Sniffers, Wind Finders, Fortellers, Wise Ones, Tree Brothers, Trollics, Grey Men, Myyraddral (sp) Golem, the list goes on and on. At some point, you have to just suspend the rational theory of disbelief, and take it for what it's worth. <br /><br />Screw the gene theory!<br /><br />lol<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-20 01:12:01
subject: <b>come on guys</b>
body:
You are overanalyzing this way to much. I doubt RJ in his wildest dreams would have thought that obsessed people would try to formulate theories on the biomechanics of channeling.<br />Do you really think he has time to map out the genetic code of the races in WoT? The only reason why he would do this isn't to supply you guys with information; it would be to make money on people who are obsessed about this kind of stuff.<br />You give RJ too much credit. And I bet you a million dollars RJ HAS made mistakes in his series. It's all but impossible not to make mistakes in a series of that caliber.<br />And you are trying to equate genes with Rand al'Thor???<br />HE'S SPUN FROM THE WEB, specifically from tel'aran'riod or whatever.<br />His powers and abilities come from his strings, his soul, and being reborn as a Ta'veren. You can't POSSIBLY base ANY gene theories on a ta'veren. Normal physiology can't apply to these special characters.


created: 2002-09-20 04:04:32
subject: <b><i>ta'veren</i> and gene theories</b>
body:
To Adrian and CleanToe:<br /><br />You can't base any genetic theories on <i>ta'veren</i>? Whyever not? Being spun out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod by the Wheel doesn't necessarily mean a character's genetic makeup is predetermined; in fact it cannot mean that, otherwise the Heroes of the Horn would LOOK the same every time they were spun out, and clearly that is not the case. Birgitte's blonde hair notwithstanding, LTT and Rand do not have a similar appearance at all - one of the Forsaken, probably Lanfear, said something like &quot;You don't look like Lews Therin except for your height, but I'd know your soul anywhere...&quot;<br /><br />When the souls of Horn Heroes are spun into the world, they are, apparently, placed into the bodies of newly-born infant children - who <i>already</i> have their parents' genes.<br /><br /><br />To anybody who thinks this subject is nitpicking and splitting hairs:<br /><br />Every person has a different tolerance level for how detailed they are willing to get when considering how fictional things work. If this topic is beyond yours, you need only ignore it. Deriding people for discussing things they find interesting is counterproductive.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-20 08:14:57
subject: <b>well..</b>
body:
I agree you ppl Looking WAY to far into this and like the Hero Soul taking the babys body...but the soul must enter the baby AS it's born or before..since as soon as rands born the one AS in the Tower knows.


created: 2002-09-20 09:14:40
subject: <b>For Toivo</b>
body:
Quick thing about the genetics.  If it is a double recessive trait then a person could have the spark and neither parent be able to learn or have the spark.<br /><br />SsRr x SsRr with ssrr being needed for spark.  .5*.5*.5*.5=6.25% chance of having all four.  Don't feel like writing out all the probabilities but could explain why spark is so much less common then learning.  Different combinations could also explain varying strengths.


created: 2002-09-20 09:54:26
subject: <b>Taveren</b>
body:
I have wondered, especially since looking at Rand in the WOT RPG, if Rand would lose the ability to channel, or would weaken significantly, if he loses Ta'veren status.


created: 2002-09-20 20:02:36
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Also, it's quite possible that channeling itself is not inherited, just the potential to channel. Similar to gene for breast cancer and other 'inheritable' cancers. All children undergo some mutation in their genome during fertilization, so it could be that the recessive part only gives a predisposition to channeling. The actual ability/power comes from random mutations. This would lead to a general predisposition to channeling that could be somewhat traced up a family line, but just not clear cut enough to fit a direct inheritance model.


created: 2002-09-21 00:35:19
subject: <b>once again</b>
body:
I must reiterate how deep you are looking into nothing. This is a fantasy series guys, not Darwin's theory on evolution or Marco Polo's travels in Asia. It's certainly not Freud or Einstein.<br />It's a series. Do you think RJ has given any thought AT ALL to what you guys are talking about in this post? He says it's genetic. I doubt in his wildest dreams he thought you people would take it 50 steps more than that and apply actual genetics to this world.<br />Please, for pete's sake, stop overanalyzing everything. Some things you can take at face value. Some things really aren't as complex as they seem.<br />Ackman's Razor, I believe.


created: 2002-09-21 03:25:21
subject: <b>Re: once again</b>
body:
1)  I think it *is* possible that RJ has given some thought into this.  If I were to write a fantasy series, I almost certainly would. Besides, he's a scientist, even if genetics isn't his field of study.<br /><br />2)  Why shouldn't we overanalyze?  It's fun.  You should try it sometime.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />3)  I know that these books aren't real.  I don't even believe that a Creator, &quot;Dark One&quot;, magic, life after death, or souls as most people would define them actually exist in real life.  That doesn't stop me from having a little fun with the series.


created: 2002-09-21 13:37:56
subject: <b>Agresses with people who say to lighten up.</b>
body:
We are perfectly aware that it's fantasy series. So what? it's still fun to be over-analytical and stuff.<br /><br />And on-topic I'd like to say that many of you have very good points. Unfortunately we will probably never know the full story on the genetics of channeling. But hey, kee[ up the speculation!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 15:16:23
subject: <b>Tigraine</b>
body:
was never daughter-heir, was she?  As I recall, there was a hughe tussle for succession when she got the throne.  If she was never daughter-heir she might never have gone to the tower, and if she had the ability to learn but not inbred in her, the wise ones might never have known.<br /><br />so there is one little hole.  (:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Susan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT swearer</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 21:32:26
subject: <b>Re: Tigraine</b>
body:
Tigraine was the Daughter-Heir.  The struggle for the throne only occured after she crossed the Dragon Wall and her mother, the Queen, died without an heir.


created: 2002-09-21 22:23:22
subject: <b>re: Tigraine</b>
body:
To Suziannabean:<br />You are thinking of Morgase, not Tigraine. Morgase was never Daughter-Heir, it was her fight for the throne you are remembering. Tigraine was the Daughter-Heir that dissappeared, shortly before her mother Queen Modrellein died - leaving nobody on the throne, which brought about the conflict that led to Morgase being crowned.<br />An interesting note is that in TEOTW, RJ made a mistake where it says Morgase WAS Daughter-Heir. All information gathered from later books refutes this.<br /><br /><br />To CleanToe: <br />All of the genetics discussed so far in this theory and these comments, is standard, required curriculum in practically all American High Schools. It's hardly Einstein-material. In theory , everybody is supposed to know this stuff. Even still, you will remember that RJ was a physicist, and has almost CERTAINLY thought through ALL of this, if only for his own pleasure. <br /><br />To APK5: You are right, because I didn't account for the Double-Recessive possibility in my orignal theory. If ss or rr, either one, makes the ability to learn, and rrss is required for the spark, neither parent would HAVE to be able to learn. However, the chances of  a &quot;sparker's&quot; parents both having RrSs is 1/27. The odds of those parents producing a &quot;sparker&quot; is 1/16. Unlikely, but yes, still possible.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-22 07:16:41
subject: <b>genetics</b>
body:
well, here in the land of oz, we dont have to learn this crap. but heres a few points.<br /><br />1. what about dormant genes? skipping a generation and all. DUH!<br /><br />2.if jordan mentioned it in the guide, then i think he JUST MIGHT have thought it out beforehand!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-22 19:19:17
subject: <b>So what that RJ is a scientist?</b>
body:
Actually it's Occum's razor (from William of Occum), but I happen to agree.<br /><br />To those people constantly saying that RJ is a scientist? Well, so what? I am a genetist, and I wouldn't have an idea about most of physics, so why should he know about genetics? Because he studied it in school 30 years ago? I doubt it, plus all the stuff he learnt then is basically wrong (which would explain his genetics theories).<br /><br />Sure, feel free to over analyse, but usually these theories are about trying to work out what Jordan is thinking, so we can know what he'll write. Instead, here we are talking about something that he obviously hasn't thought about much at all, so we are not likely to achieve much except realise that either 1) he doesn't care enough about this stuff to have clearly worked out a system and incorperated it into his books, or 2) he knows little about genetics, and just through it in for fun (you would be surprised at how little most people know about genetics). Of course, since we all have option 3 - there is a creator, which means magic. Therefore we can't explain things by science - after all what is magic? Magic is a way to get around things that are scientifically impossible.


created: 2002-09-23 05:10:41
subject: <b>Why *shouldn't* RJ know about genetics?</b>
body:
I'm not clear about what you are applying Ockham's Razor to. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> I couldn't tell specifically which comments, or by who.<br /><br />You ask, why should RJ know about genetics? No reason, except that his being a scientist (as well as a heavy reader) establishes that he has curiosity about how things work, and a will to explore them. I have these attributes myself, though I don't work in a scientific field (heck, I'm unemployed) - but I am enthralled enough by the world around me to read every scrap I can find on such subjects as genetics and physics.<br /><br />All I can say is that if I was writing this, or any series, I would make darned sure that all the science I used would be so accurate, that even a physicist or geneticist could find no fault with what I wrote. Or a chemist or a biologist or a doctor or a mathematician or a psychiatrist. To my mind, researching such subjects to ensure the accuracy of what I write, would be part of the fun of writing - and I cannot imagine RJ just saying, &quot;Well, if I don't know how this works, I can always just make it up.&quot; He's exactly the sort of person who would find out how it works. The only times he has ever thrown science out the window in favor of magic, are when he has something specific he wants to be true for his story. He doesn't do it just to cover ignorance - no author worth his salt does, because who knows how many readers will be put off by gross innacuracies?<br /><br />At any rate, this has been quite a discussion, party-poopers aside, and I'm pleased that my first try on the Theory Post has sparked such interesting thoughts by so many people. Even the naysayers!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Toivo<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-23 17:04:00
subject: <b>More genetics ramblings.....</b>
body:
First, just so y'all know, I'm not a geneticist, I'm not even a biologist.  I'm just a 1st year BSc student, so if my facts are simplistic or messed up, sorry.<br /><br />Ok, the recessive gene thing.  I'm going to make a really simplistic example of fruit flies.  In fruit flies, there are several variations of the gene for eye colour.  I don't remember which colours are which, so I'm naming at random, but it's something like the gene for red eyes is recessive to the gene for brown eyes, which in turn is recessive to the gene for black eyes.  If the gene for having the spark is recessive to the gene for being able to learn to channel, which in turn is recessive to the gene for not being able to channel at all, it's easily possible for neither parent to be able to channel or learn to channel, but some of the offspring can.  If that's what people are saying with the double-recessive gene stuff, sorry for repeating you; I kinda forget the vocabulary for all this.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation.<br />-Georges Clemenceau<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 11:05:34
subject: <b>but seriously....</b>
body:
It is for discussions like this that I included the last quote in my signature.... <br /><br />But don't let it stop you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Engeltje <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I'm not a guru or a sage. I'm a storyteller. The only times I get disturbed is when I find people who seem to be taking this too seriously.&quot; - Robert Jordan <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 18:34:38
subject: <b>thanks for the contributions</b>
body:
I have to say, that having read through all the posts, I'm not a whole lot wiser about the way genetics work in Randland.<br /><br />However, I really enjoyed the opportunity to think about the questions that were asked, and I do like to think that there's at least a PARTLY scientific basis for what goes on in the WOT.<br /><br />The thing is, as advanced as science is on Earth, there remain many frontiers that have not been explored as far as how life works, where it comes from, where personality begins...and so on.<br /><br />I have no problem with the unexplained being a part of Randland.  If anything, it makes it MORE authentic.<br /><br />Its nice to theorise about what RJ has in store for the people of Randland.  But I also enjoy being surprised too.<br /><br />Keep at it...<br />


created: 2002-09-27 19:12:28
subject: <b>Forsaken side</b>
body:
Just an idea to throw out there-<br />The Forsaken can all channel (obviously) and when they are put into another body, the keep the ability to channel and to the degree that could channel previously.  Even a guy reborn into a girl's body kept the ability to channel Saidin.  And also remember the Lews Therin could channel to a certain degree and Rand can channel to that same degree (seen in compared to Forsaken).  Is it possible that the ability to channel is at least partially connected to the soul?


created: 2002-10-01 02:23:56
subject: <b>Good point!</b>
body:
I've been trying to say that last point for awhile, as I think it is very telling. I don't think any of the 'genetics-channeling' people have addressed it at all though (probably because there is not much of a counter for it).


created: 2002-10-01 07:04:01
subject: <b>The forsaken are reborn through the dark one's power...</b>
body:
...And the dark one is lord of paradox and master of unreason yadayadayada.<br /><br />There, we've answered it all. Let's move on to the next theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-17 16:11:29
subject: <b>A (hopefully) conclusive post . . .</b>
body:
In response to Adrian, CleanToe, Toivo, and whoever else included this, the philosophical/scientific principle is OCCAM'S RAZOR. <br />      Now as much as I enjoy debating reality and its application to my hobbies, I know that no one is going to be able to explain the genetic expression of channeling in Robert Jordan's books because . . . No scientist today completely understands the expression of anyone's genetics. There is still an inherent level of uncertainty due to a few little things called incomplete dominance and co-dominance.<br />      My point is this: There is enough uncertainty to allow for Robert Jordan's basic concept of genetic channeling to work, perhaps not based on the simple dominance mechanism, but just the same it could still work. I emphasize could, because I highly doubt whether or not anyone reading this will be able to conclusively eliminate the possibility of RJ's idea working or not, and as such I refuse to make any definitive statements.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I told you to make weapons, Taim. Show me just how deadly they are. Disperse the Shaido. Break them.<br />     -Rand al'Thor, to Mazrim Taim<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 00:38:03
subject: <b>just my pennies</b>
body:
I just wanna say:<br /><br />These theories are interesting for about the first 10 minutes then you are just beating a dead horse.  This is also why i can only take about a month of WoT before i have to quit and read something else, because, hey, in Salvatore, no one asks why the snake intestine turns into an acid glob.  I bet its because the snake intestine has a genetic disposition to turn into acid when certain words are said to it, right?  With all your co-dominance and genes sometimes skipping generations and selective dominance, RJ has enough leeway to just put channelers where he needs them and get away with it.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he makes some of them related just to screw with your heads.  Its called magic, usually in fantasy series', any takers?<br /><br />That one guy with the RJ quote about people taking this too serious is right.  Don't take a book to serious, itll ruin it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-18 04:13:45
subject: <b>A bit Hitlerish but...</b>
body:
In either case wouldn't it be concievable that in some age or other, channelers rule the world and basically rid the world of all non-channelers?  It is a bit um... mean i suppose but would not the world be a better place if everyone born everywhere could cannel?  not to mention live about 8 times longer on average.


created: 2002-09-24 19:21:18
subject: <b>More circumstancial evidence</b>
body:
While doing an internet search on Anaiya, I ran into this quote at linuxmafia (http://linuxmafia.com/~pam/wh-posts/faq.sheriam)<i></i>:<br /><br />&quot;Anaiya stroked Egwene's hair soothingly.  &quot;It will go well, child.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Now a) the stroking of hair is very similar to what Sheriam's mystery attacker does to her in PoD and b0 she clearly thinks of Egwene as a &quot;child&quot;, again similar to the reference to &quot;what the girl is doing&quot; that Sheriam's unwelcome visitor makes.&quot;<br /><br />Anaiya was among those Salidar AS who swore an oath of fealty to Egwene.  If Anaiya <i>does</i> turn out to be Sheriam's attacker, then she is certainly Black Ajah.  Or else she would have to be very twisted to believe what she is doing is within the bounds of her oath.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 20:03:24
subject: <b>A Rebuttal</b>
body:
I myself once suspected Janya, because of that incident where she's seen keeping company with Delana. Merely having an aquaintance or even a close friendship does not constitute proof that if one is Black, the other is. Look at Seaine - she was very good friends with Talene before Talene's Black status was uncovered. This is totally insufficient to demonstrate even a likelyhood of Black Ajah membership for Janya - and the fact that Janya was once seen talking to Anaiya is an even flimsier connection. Aes Sedai are &quot;sisters.&quot; They talk to one another. So what?<br /><br />Second, I've never seen any evidence, anywhere, that Anaiya was a Sitter in Salidar or anywhere else. If you can find a quote that supports it, in the FAQ or a theory or the books, all well and good, but otherwise it's pure conjecture. What you've read on the subject may have convinced you, but you need to do more if you want to convince readers of your theory. And, whether she was a Sitter or not...<br /><br />Third, I believe that the fact that Halima attached herself to a Sitter for the Gray instead of the Blue, means that there are no Blue Sitters from the Black Ajah. Cabriana was Blue, and if Halima had worked for Cabriana it would have been seen as natural for her to seek out a Blue Sitter if she could have. It was a risk to attach herself to a Gray, because some sisters might wonder why. Also, the numerous references to Halima needing Delana make a strong case that Delana is the sole Black Sitter in Salidar.<br /><br />Fourth, you first assert that Delana and Takima could both be Black because they both looked sick at the War Vote. Then, you say the Black Ajah would be in *favor* of the War Vote. Either you've contradicted yourself, or you haven't explained what you meant clearly enough. I believe that it's quite possible Takima could have look sick simply because the Law of War bound the Hall to obey Egwene, and Takima could have stopped this disaster if she'd spoken up in time.<br /><br />Fifth, the pieces evidence you cite from the early books (her connections to Egwene's Dreaming and Mat's being held in Tar Valon) are way, WAY out on a limb. Not that they can't be true, but you've stretched them far beyond what they're worth.<br /><br /><br />Remember when Sheriam tells Siuan that most of the charges against her (Siuan) were so thin they should have been laughed away? I think the same can be said of almost all of your evidence. It is flimsy, circumstantial, and ambiguous. Not that I'm trying to insult your theory, I think you've done a great job of looking for patterns in the chaos, so to speak, I just don't buy this one. <br /><br />All in all, I'd say that RJ has deliberately made Anaiya into an enigma-sister, like Verin is. She's mysterious and nobody can be sure what makes her tick, just like Verin. Remember that there were many, many theories and pieces of evidence in favor of Verin being Black Ajah, but this was disproved in TPOD and WH.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-24 21:08:04
subject: <b>Anaiya as Sitter</b>
body:
Anaiya had been a Sitter for the White Tower (not for Salidar) or at least so says the Wheel of Time Character Archive, as quoted below.  (Sorry for assuming that was commonly known info.)  So it may be said that she gave up her seat for Moria.  (Of course, one might ask why a Black Ajah member would give up her seat if all it accomplishes is getting another Black Ajah member in the seat.  If there is already one there, why bother?)<br /><br />&quot;Anaiya <br />&quot;Allegiance: The Light, The Blue Ajah.<br />&quot;Title(s): Aes Sedai.<br /><br />&quot;Egwene. Dark haired with a lovely smile and a blunt face. Her smile makes people feel safe and special. Polite and pleasant, open and honest. She means what she says and says what she means, able to see to the heart of things and people and accept what she sees. Many people think her openness is a front for lurking schemes. <br /><br />&quot;She was a Sitter in the Hall of the Tower and began helping Egwene to find out if she had a talent for dreaming. She will strive for what she wants and won't give up easily. She escaped the Tower coup to Salidar with the renegades and became a part of Sheriam's group. She has sworn fealty to Egwene and has since become vexed.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 02:16:55
subject: <b>Character Archive</b>
body:
What, exactly, is this Wheel Of Time Character Archive? Or rather, where can I find it on the Web? I'd like ot be able to browse it myself.<br /><br />Where does it get its evidence for making assumptions about characters like this? The quote you made was written by a third party, not RJ, and third parties are not infallible.<br /><br />The books do not refer to Anaiya as a Sitter anywhere. I haven't read New Spring, so if the info comes from there I'll accept it, but I'm 99% certain that Anaiya was not a Sitter at the time Siuan (then the Amyrlin) visited Moiraine &amp; Agelmar in Shienar. It was strongly implied that *none* of the sisters who went along were Sitters.<br /><br />Just curious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-25 06:58:11
subject: <b>Anaiya is not black!</b>
body:
How dare you call Anaiya black? <br /><br />shes one of the coolest charekters in the book, she cant be a darkfriend! <br /><br />yes i know this is no evidence but i dont care. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="teal">Vantan hr&#237;veress&#235; helka</font><br /><br /><font color="white">spacespacespace...</font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 08:14:08
subject: <b>I agree with this theory</b>
body:
The character archive is related to the RPG, which RJ says is irrelevant.<br />Now, I have heard a lot of people put forward the case for Anaiya being black. The evidence put forward is very convincing in my eyes.<br />I agree that she is black. But (though I have no evidence) I think she also the third member of the triumvarate of leaders of the High Council (with Galina and Alviarin).<br /><br />Now, whether or not Moria is black is just guesswork in my eyes.


created: 2002-09-25 09:51:26
subject: <b>I agree, too</b>
body:
I've thought for a long time that Anaiya might be black, but have never had any strong evidence.  <br /><br />  My suspicions were first raised on my second reading of TGH, when Anaiya first appears in the company of Liandrin.  Anaiya seems to exercise some small amount of authority over Liandrin at the time, and this made me wonder at Anaiya's alignment.<br /><br />  Then there was the connection with Halima that has been stated in this theory.<br /><br />  Another factor in my thinking was the episode in LOC wherein the Salidar AS use TAR to gain info about Elaida's schemes.  Two significant factors arise in this expedition.  First, I always thought that the Nightmare they ran into may have been conjured by the presence in their party of a black sister whose thoughts started to wonder on to what sort of punishment she might expect if she failed in some given mission.  This is pure speculaton, however.<br /><br />  Secondly, the Salidar AS discover Elaida has come to some agreement with the King of Illian (I think), but before they can discover exactly what this agreement is, the piece of paper changes to something else.  A few chapters later, Balwer reports exactly the same thing; that he has learned of some agreement between Elaida and the King of Illian.  I always took this to signify both the presence of a black sister in Sheriam's group and also Balwer's status as a DF.<br /><br />  As for the War Vote, i got the feeling Halima had ordered Delana to make sure that their progress was a slow as possible, regardless of anything else.  During the vote, Delana was unaware of the consequences for Egwene if it was agreed that they were, indeed, at war with Elaida.  Hence her indecision.  Once Egwene revealed the reasons behind her ruse, Delana must have been very worried indeed, hence her illness.<br /><br />I also like the connection between Sheriam's assailant and Anaiya-I really like that.  It seems a good fit to me, and could mean Sheriam is not a DF herself.<br /><br />  Finally, I also believe Anaiya might be the missing third sister in the Black Ajah's top 3, and find it amusing that the top 3 come from the Red,White and Blue Ajahs...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 10:48:23
subject: <b>Character Archive</b>
body:
http://www.netspace.net.au/~dmt/wot/index.html<br /><br />I've seen nothing to suggest that this site is related to the RPG, contrary to what spudman said.  I couldn't even find the term &quot;RPG&quot; in their site search, and their notes claim much book research (since December 1997).  However, they <i>are</i> a third party site, so they could be in error.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 10:50:09
subject: <b>Unfortunately, I agree</b>
body:
I also thought that it was odd that Liandrin was acting all suboordinate to Anaiya in tGH, and that was my first clue as well. I thought it strange too, that RJ always makes sure to describe Anaiya as kind looking, motherly, friendly, etc. It just seems like he's really trying to force that impression on people, and for a character seen as infrequently as her...<br />As far as Ishamael knowing about Egwene's 'protecting' Rand in T'A'R, If I recall, she came across Ishy briefly in her nocturnal excursions, so I think that's how he knew, but sadly I still must agree that Anaiya is Black Ajah...Dammit...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 12:38:15
subject: <b>Here's some more &quot;evidence&quot;</b>
body:
I don't know about the rest of the evidence, but here may be an example of Anaiya is at least black. In LoC when Salidar is &quot;attacked&quot; by the miasma from the DO prison and Nicola has her first foretelling, the only Aes Sedai in the group happens to be... you guessed it, Anaiya. When Nicola has her first foretelling, Anaiya asks her to meet her in the morning.<br /><br />Later, when Mat first arrives at Salidar Nicola sees him glowing. And, you bet, Anaiya says &quot;You have just uncovered your first talent, yay!&quot; Anaiya is almost certain to have realized that Nicola had the foretelling. It is a rare talent, but everyone knows what it looks like, especially for someone who has it in fits (ie- the trance like state, etc) Anaiya would have to expect that she could foretell, if not how strongly the foretelling might be. It also seems to be her expertise, since she is the one who tested Egwene in the first place to see if she was a Dreamer/Foreteller. So if she had to know that Nicola had the foretelling (keyword=know), how could she tell Nicola that her ability to see Ta'veren was her FIRST talent.<br /><br />Just some hard evidence that she lied... I think. There is also the possibility that she didn't think that Nicola had the Foretelling. But it seems that if we all see she has a foretelling, then Anaiya who has experience in this kind of thing would too.


created: 2002-09-25 14:34:42
subject: <b>maybe not!</b>
body:
I don't about the rest but I do know that Ish know about Edwege dreams because he saw her. Here is the qoute;<br />&quot;A nightmare for true, but real. First there had been a<br />man with a mask over his face, and fire in place of his eyes. Despite the mask, she had thought he was surprised<br />to see her. His look had frightened her till she thought her bones would break from shivering, but suddenly he<br />vanished, and she saw Rand sleeping on the ground, wrapped in a cloak.&quot;<br />So that is why Ish said to Rand that the girl can't protect him.<br />And the rest of the theory coinciden?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 14:39:23
subject: <b>Yes, Moria is a stretch.</b>
body:
I don't know where on the internet I read the bit about Anaiya as sitter; it's been on my mind for a while.  Since I didn't have FoH (I loaned it out) when I wrote the theory, I assumed the evidence for it was in there.  Bad assumption.  Maybe some of those character archives are making assumptions from Anaiya's presence in the Fal Dara delegation that accompanied Siuan.<br /><br />As for the Salidar sitter politics...I believe some sitters are true rebels, some are darkfriends, some are in touch with different factions in the Tower itself, endless speculations could be made.  In PoD 19 &quot;The Law,&quot; Jordan writes that several of the sitters who remained seated looked sick after the war vote, among them Magla, Saroiya, and Takima.  Some of them were no doubt purely uncomfortable with and unsure of the direction the Tower in exile was taking.  I became suspicious, however, that some of them were perhaps under different pressures than their own consciences.  Former sitters became suspect to my mind, and I noticed that Janya and Takima voted differently, and thought perhaps they were under different pressures.  All speculation, I admit, but fun, especially when you start trying to figure out darkfriends.


created: 2002-09-25 21:38:23
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
We may have to see whether Anaiya is a Black Sister in upcoming books. If she is actually Black, I feel she may be coerced into it (13 channelers, 13 Fades trick). One of the evidence for such a Shadow coercion may be Anaiya's own resignation from the Sitter and Moria is made Sitter. Moria could be a willing Black, thus &quot;better suited&quot; for the position then a coerced Black.<br />I also noticed the &quot;Mor&quot; part of her name. And her whole name as well. It's also the name of a particularly deadly place in Lord of the Rings (Mines of Moria, anyone?). Another RJ contribution to Tolkien?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 06:01:20
subject: <b>Foretelling and Ta'varen Spotting</b>
body:
The bit about the Talents (billytwilight) is good.  Given the two incidents -- Anaiya witnessing Nicola have a Foretelling, then later witnessing her spot a Ta'veren and calling it her first talent -- the only possibilities are:<br /><br />a) Anaiya was so busy during the bubble of evil that she didn't see the Foretelling for what it was.  She says something at the time, along the lines of &quot;What was that, child?&quot;, and then appears to brush her off.  So she MAY just not have noticed at all.<br /><br />b) Anaiya might actually believe that the Foretelling was an accident and not a true Talent.  I don't see why, but it might pass in a court of law, and it would clear her name on this count.<br /><br />c) Anaiya noticed the Foretelling, suspected that nobody else had, and decided to snatch the Talent up for the Shadow.  This would explain why she deliberately calls it the &quot;First&quot; talent -- and come to think of it, why else would we have been shown that little snippet?  (Unless Nicola is going to spot some other Ta'veren later on?)<br /><br />Good spot, and yet more evidence of Anaiya's naughty persuasion.


created: 2002-09-26 08:32:07
subject: <b>Quite possible</b>
body:
Obviously there are more Black Ajah in Salidar that we don't know about,it's unlikely Delana is on a one-woman reign of terror there, and Anaiya now seems a better guess than most.  I'd never really thought about connecting her to the Black, and I never knew she was a Sitter either.  <br /><br />As the third member of the Supreme Council, it's possible, but seems just speculation at the moment.  Depending on how much influence Alviarin, as head of the Black, had on the coup, and how the Black Ajah split itself, it seems likely they'd try to get a sister or two in the little council that was taking shape in Salidar<br /><br />The fact she's always being described as motherly and friendly and so on would make it all the worse if she's unveiled as Black.  So it's definately a possibility and one i agree with.  This seems a better theory than many i've read lately<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 08:45:47
subject: <b>Anaiya is NOT Black</b>
body:
When Halima arrived at Salidar, she sought out the most powerful people that would be sympathetic to her cause.  In Delana's case, it meant that she was also Black.  For Anaiya, it meant that Halima had all this information about Cabriana, a Blue sister.  I would think it would be obvious that Anaiya is the head of the Blue Ajah.  Halima knows this and went to her directly in order to prove her credentials.  After Anaiya was satisfied, Halima asked to see Delana to relay some message and the rest is in the books.<br />Woody


created: 2002-09-27 03:01:54
subject: <b>Moiraine practically says Anaiya was a Sitter</b>
body:
In TGH, Anaiya says Moiraine is needed in Tar Valon and Moiraine says that she leaves the Hall of the Tower to Anaiya; if the Hall is Anaiya's business this at the least strongly suggests she is a Sitter. I take it as proof. <br />Sorry I don't have the exact quote, but I have had the Sitter argument before and remember this passage very clearly.And, BTW, Moria is a name IRL as well...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-27 14:58:26
subject: <b>But if Anaiya is head of the Blue Ajah...</b>
body:
then the Hall would still be her business, even if she wasn't a Sitter. Has the head of the Blues ever explicitly been stated? I believe Aeldene was only mentioned as the head of the Blue's spy network.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 18:26:42
subject: <b>Supreme Council</b>
body:
<br />As for Anaiya I don't believe there is enough proof to convict, we'll have to RAFO.  I know this is probably bad etiquette but I have a question about the supreme council.  I know regular black sister's only know 2 others to protect the black adja but where is it stated that the supreme council only has 3 members?  It's been a while since I've read the series and I can't recall any reference...thanks.


created: 2002-09-30 13:26:12
subject: <b>Eshelmon</b>
body:
From what i recall there are 13 sisters on the Supreme Council.  The reference to three comes from the first page of Ch 40 of ACOS, 'Spears' in which we have a POV from Galina in which she thinks that ' ...she was one of only three who knew the name of the woman who led their hooded meetings.'  <br /> Just so you know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 05:17:48
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
It might be a good idea to write a compilation of these for a FAQ sometime.<br /><br />I have long suspected Anaiya of being Black Ajah, but it's still on a knife edge. I might look into this if I ever get the time. <br /><br />Anaiya is not a Sitter, nor likely has ever been one. The three Salidar Sitters for the Blue are Lyrelle, Lelaine and Moria. Both Lyrelle and Lelaine were Sitters before the split. Moria was not. Why would Anaiya leave her position as Sitter when both the other Sitters retook their seats? There is the possibility that she left the Hall to take the role of the Ajah Head, but I suspect that she may have been Ajah Head long before that. There are no other candidates that would fit as the Ajah Head. It would also explain why the blues seem divided in the Hall. If Lelaine were the Head, we would see a strong shift towards her in the Tower. The Ajah Head dictates policy. If Anaiya was not supporting Lelaine's claim as Amyrlin, it would explain why she didn't have the Blue Ajah in her grasp. There are many more explanations though.<br /><br />Another point towards her being Ajah Head is the fact that she is one of the six that 'hold the real power in Salidar'. The other five are Beonin, Carlinya, Sheriam, Myrelle and Morvin. Myrelle is a known Ajah Head, Morvin and Beonin are both formidable women and Carlinya seems to be very ambitious (Both she and Beonin wanted to be Amyrlin). Ambitious enough that she might place herself as Ajah Head. My personal opinion is that there are a few more Ajah Heads among the Salidar Six. They are minus a Yellow representative, however. Romanda is probably the Head of the Yellow. She, unlike Lelaine, does seem to have a firm grip of her Ajah. <br /><br />Saying that, if she is Ajah Head, she can't be Black Ajah. Alviarin clearly states that Galina is the only Black Sister that is the head of their Ajah. Plus it would also mean that Alviarin should have had way more control over the split that she did have... though we may speculate that the split was her plan all along. <br /><br />Of course, there is a lot that would lead us to believe that she is Black. Lelaine could always be Ajah Head and the Blues could just be naturally unruly. Perhaps Lelaine's arrogance can be explained if she were Ajah Head.<br /><br />Oh, one more thing. The interaction between Janya nad Anaiya at the start of LoC is suspicious indeed. Janya seems to be under her control. It may also be noted that Janya was not only associated with Delana, but was living with her. Nynaeve visits them on occasion. Hence we see Janya acts exactly as Delana would want her to. If Aniaya had a hand in that too, it would make sense. <br /><br />I have a long list of strange anomilies between the Sitters of Salidar that I was planning on putting in a FAQ one day. Some of it is very interesting, but there's a good bit of speculation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 01:14:29
subject: <b>Anaiya, Blue Ajah and Ajah Heads</b>
body:
<br />Some points on your theory:<br /><br />1. As far as Anaiya pulling Liandrin in to line in Shienar,here is a simpler explanatin. Liandrin had been criticising 2 Blues who were stronger in the Power than she.  Naturally Anaiya made her back down. You aren't allowed to be uppity to AS stronger than you.<br /><br />2.  Anaiya could be either Blue Ajah Head or a Sitter at the time they were in Shienar.  Not only did MOiraine tell Anaiya the Hall was hers to deal with, whe also remarked that Anaiya deals extremely well with the Hall.  That is likely to be a Blue Ajah Head as much as a Sitter. <br /><br />3.  When Anaiya is described as motherly it reminds me of that AS in New Spring who was Mistress of Novices and motherly and Black.<br /><br />4.  It was interesting when Siuan was talking with Sheriam's group on arriving in Salidar and asked Anaiya if Aeldrene (in charge of the Blue's agents) had arrived yet.  <br /><br />Because the Blues have such an extensive network - bigger than any other Ajah, it has always seemed to me to be an obvious taget for the BA to infiltrate. They could get info, and control what info to send on.  Either the AS who runs the agents - Aeldrene at this time -  or else the next in command that Aeldrene reports to. Could this be Anaiya?  <br /><br />We have been told in the books that even within an Ajah few AS know the identity of the AS that runs their network. Anaiya was one who knew this, so she has some position of authority - Sitter, Ajah Head, or whatever. It looks to me like Aeldrene, and therefore the Blue's agents, report to her.  The BA would want someone of theirs in a position like that.  Liely that Aedrene is BA too.<br /><br /><br />4. On the subject of what the Ajah Heads are up to in the Tower, if the Amyrlin and the Hall are deadlocked, at loggerheads or behaving unproductively (read stupidly) there must be a way of counteracting this.  That is one of the roles of the Ajah Heads, I think, and is why they have some way to recognise each other and get together to control votes, sack Sitters or whatever is necessary to bring Hall and Amyrlin to order.<br /><br />By having youg Sitters in times of upheaval they have effectively given themselves more votes, rather than just the one they would have if they sat themselves.  Also they can work behind the scenes (as they are doing) without others knowing what is going on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 08:26:09
subject: <b>Anaiya, Delana and Halima</b>
body:
I always took the fact that Halima being sent to Delana meant that Delana was fairly senior in the Black Ajah's organisation. <br /><br />From an Alviarin POV, we get the fact that she has met several of the Forsaken, and they have sought her out as Head of the Black.  <br /><br />It seems more likely, then, that Halima would go to the most senior/important Black Ajah member in Salidar.  <br /><br />While this doesn't preclude Anaiya's being Black, it does make it less likely for her to be on the Supreme Council<br /><br />By the way, the Supreme Council cannot only have 3 members, as Galina thinks at one point (POD, somewhere after being caught by Sevanna) that her place on the Supreme Council was next to that of Alviarin herself.  If there were only three, both others would sit next to Alviarin, and the comment is pointless.  Therefore, there are more than 3. 13 seems a good number, it turns up an awful lot, and seems appropriate for the Council as well. <br /><br />Back to the main point, both Anaiya and Delana could be on the council.  It seems logical, though, that Delana stands higher than Anaiya, or equals at best.  <br /><br />Alternatively, Delana could be the highest Black Sitter, assuming there to be others, and so Halima went to her for that reason.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-18 08:53:41
subject: <b>There are 13 in the Supreme Council</b>
body:
That is known. Can't remember where the reference is though...<br /><br />Anyway, that bit about the three refers to the fact that only three of the Supreme Council actually know Alviarin's identity as Head of their organisation. The others are completely in the dark, if you'll excuse the pun, about who is controlling the Blacks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 13:46:20
subject: <b>Secrecy and lack of coordination</b>
body:
There are so many pieces of evidence pointing to her--circumstantial though they may be--that I think that Anaiya is Black Ajah.  <br /><br />As for why Halima would go to Delana and not Anaiya if Anaiya were Black Ajah, it could be as simple as Anaiya being busy and Delana needing to be activated for other matters to be supervised by Halima who will act to coordinate the BA in Salidar.  It may well be that Anaiya and Delana are both BA but don't know that about each other. Considering the dramatic split in the Tower, it's conceivable that the BA are slightly in disarray and regrouping as well.   <br />


created: 2003-01-12 17:57:45
subject: <b>Nicola talent not a lie</b>
body:
When considering the case, we should look at what she said to Nicola carefully. If I recall correctly she say's that you have discovered your first talent. Now this is not a lie, because it is the first talent Nicola has discovered - she doesn't know anything about her foretelling at the moment. Anyone ever said that Aes Sedai can twist the truth until you cannot recognize it?


created: 2004-10-17 15:37:47
subject: <b>Anaiya, etc.</b>
body:
I think that all the evidence points to Anaiya being the Blue Ajah Head.  First, the quote from TGH about leaving the Hall to Anaiya.  This doesn't fit if she is a Sitter, because none of the other Aes Sedai that come with the delegation are Sitters.  They are all young, but powerful sisters (Alanna, Alviarin, Carlinya).  Therefore it's unlikely that Anaiya is a Sitter.  Why would she leave the Hall, especially if the Blue Ajah is being attacked by all the other Ajahs like Siuan talked about?<br /><br />Second, Halima comes to Anaiya because she is posing as Cabriana Mecandes' secretary.  Cabriana was Blue Ajah, so it makes sense that Halima goes to Anaiya to tell her sordid tale.  When Halima says that Cabriana and Delana were friends, Anaiya shuffles her off to Delana because she's got much more important things to worry about.<br /><br />Third.  Who the heck WAS that Sitter in the Hall?  I don't think it was Anaiya, because of the above reason, and why would she give up her seat in the Hall anyway?  She could still be part of the Salidar Six and be part of the Hall.  But if it wasn't Anaiya, then who was it?  Some people have said that it was Cabriana.  But this doesn't hold water, because in New Spring, it states very clearly that Cabriana is very weak in the Power.  Someone so weak wouldn't become a Sitter.<br /><br />Fourth, Lelaine has her power base because she's strong in the Power.  The books clearly spell out that Lelaine and Romanda are the most powerful Aes Sedai in Salidar, next to the Wondergirls (and eventually, Nicola).  Sitter + Strong in the Power = ambitions to become Amyrlin.


created: 2002-09-26 21:31:04
subject: <b>First</b>
body:
Yay!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-27 12:10:16
subject: <b>Anath as precaution</b>
body:
I think that the translation 'precaution' fits Anath better.  If she is Semirhage (and I am positive she is), then she is used as a precaution against the Seanchan helping Rand instead of opposing him.<br />Also, as for her opposition to Moridin, she did send Trollocs to save him in the Stone and her 'coertie' of Demadandred and Mesaana want to control Rand while Moridin wants to let him go free and manipulate him that way.  <br />Finally, as the preiment Healer of her day, she would naturally stand in opposition to Death.  She herself thought that she had snatched people back from the jaws of death before.  <br />Woody


created: 2002-09-28 22:34:27
subject: <b>Ageless Look</b>
body:
I agree with Burr, although he sounded a little unsure of himself. The fact is that ALL Aes Sedai are bound by the Oath Rod. Non-black sisters have the Three Oaths, and Black sisters have their own set of three oaths. This was revealed by Katerine Alruddin in LOC.<br /><br />All in all, I don't think anybody disputes that Sareitha is both Black Ajah and the killer - her coffin had plenty of nails already, but your extra evidence, while highly circumstantial, does add a few more. <br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-28 22:42:06
subject: <b>Hmmmmm...</b>
body:
I don't remember any mention of coffins in any of the books.  And as for nails.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-28 23:13:50
subject: <b>The being attacked thing</b>
body:
Sareitha is not referring back to an attack in Ebou Dar; she is talking about something that happened to Elayne and Aviendha in Caemlyn not too long ago. Also, although I agree she is BA, why would she give all those hints? The comments seem a little too ambiguous; probably she was studying the shops intently in an attempt to seem casual and diffident. Or maybe she was just window-shopping, or bored...<br />Also, as others have said, the agelessness thing proves less than nothing, as ALL Aes Sedai, including the Black Ajah, look ageless. All it means is that she hasn't been Aes Sedai very long. <br />Personally I would think there is as much evidence for Careane who behaved suspiciously at the Kin's farm and regarding the runaway novices. Of course, she does have more Warders, but then Asne Sedai has four and she is Black.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 01:18:12
subject: <b>Elayne</b>
body:
Not that I disagree with you on the issue, but why would Sareitha warn Elayne about possible DarkFriends? I mean it seems that if she was BA, and there were some DarkFriends planning a well aimed stone, se would insist on seeing more of the city with Elayne.<br /><br />I think she must have seen some sort of signal from a fellow DF that let her know about some meeting or something. She then takes Elayne back to the palace so that she can be free to go and do her own thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 03:42:52
subject: <b>i agree with kritter, but</b>
body:
why cant she be forced into it like sheriam? knock off her oaths (maybe), and just torture her into saying it all, no-one says that a BA is there, so why does everyone assume it? because it must be an AS, but why the hell not torture her, or get a 'sympathetic' AS (hey, BA's can still have non BA friends...) to help out..... this shoulda been a theory. can i get some free points mike?? no? damn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 12:22:01
subject: <b>Another point on agelessness</b>
body:
Ok, maybe it has been mentionned plenty of time that Sareitha didn't acheive the ageless look yet, but the same thing is constantly being said about Beldeine (the young green who swore to Rand in Cairhien), so it adds another reason why that argument doesn't proven anything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 12:52:31
subject: <b>Yes, Ruhira Sedai is correct.</b>
body:
The attack she is referring to was an attack against Elayne and Aviendha in Caemlyn. Elayne (and Birgitte) makes a comment to herself about it in the same scene that tells the reader a little about the attack.<br /><br />If you're going to use it in your theory you should have made sure you were correct.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hedgehog</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 00:14:58
subject: <b>More than Meets the Aes</b>
body:
If Sareitha is BA, and the murderer, which she may well be, I then think there is more to it.  The whole plotline has seemed a little too isolated -- a murder, a possible suspect, an Aes Sedai turning out to be Black Ajah; Jordan's subplots usually have a greater degree of tie-in to the story as a whole.  This tells me that either:<br /><br />a) It's not Sareitha and there's something deeper and darker going on -- a notion backed up by the fact that the entire murder plotline has been too easy and obvious all around.<br /><br />b) It is Sareitha, and Sarieth is not who/what she seems.  No good Forsaken candidates, but there could be... something<br /><br />c) My initial theory is correct, that Robert Jordan's wife has been writing the Elayne plot lines from the start.  The Elayne stuff always seemed a little too... unconnected... so I figured, maybe he's letting someone else do some of the writing....<br /><br />My vote would be for a deeper, more intricately woven plot than meets the eye.  My guess is that the seige of Caemlyn is going to connect forward, while the murder connects backward.  Don't ask me what I mean by that; I don't think I know myself.<br /><br />OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-30 13:13:07
subject: <b>I Agree whole heartedly</b>
body:
I concur with Gena Sedai's findings<br />when reading the pages i seems obvious and too coincedental, I had figured this out a few months ago, I<br />tried submitting it, but it was not posted,  <br />perhaps i should have kept resending it.<br /><br />at least this deserving theory saw the light of day.<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-30 19:46:52
subject: <b>i agree..</b>
body:
something else about Sareitha.  In COS, it is mentioned in 2 separate instances that Sareitha is highly disbelieving of the Kin's advanced ages....   why is that mentioned twice?  Why stress that Sareitha is a bit bent out of shape about the Kins' age?  She even calls Reanne a liar to her face... very un-Aes Sedai like behavior. <br /><br />The promise of immortality must be one of the main draws to joining the BA.  Sareitha might be a little perturbed to discover these long-lived ladies in Ebou Dar.... might just be regretting the decision to become BA.  <br /><br />By itself, this might mean nothing.  But it's always seemed a bit suspicious to me that Sareitha in particular is so bent out of shape about this issue.


created: 2002-10-04 11:31:46
subject: <b>Careana as the Stronger Suspect</b>
body:
To my appraisal of the situation, Careana is the stronger suspect for a combination of a simple observation in tDR and a reason given in Glimmers:<br />In tDR, when Elyane, Egwene and Nynaeve are looking at the personal info of the fled BA, they see that there is a conspicuous lack of a pattern.  They correctly deducted that there must be a pattern and that the absence is contrived to hide any pattern.  We now know that the pattern is probably connected with the Red Ajah-Galina being a major recruiter.<br />In Glimmers, we found that the BA had a cell structure.  No cells had total access to more than 3 others.  So far, all cells we have seen have had NO 2 members from the SAME Ajah.  <br />This serves to dilute the large amount of Reds and offer protection from discovery.  In the case at hand, it means Marillin, a Brown, would not know any Brown BAs in the palace on her own.  She could know a Grey or a Green, meaning Merille or Careana.  Merille has undertaken too much and I think, has shown her motives clean enough to be above suspicion.  Carenana is the only logical choice left.


created: 2002-10-14 16:07:25
subject: <b>Black Ajah cells</b>
body:
Great job with the structure of Black Ajah cells. Your explanation definitely makes sense: if one Black sister knows two other Blacks who are not of the same Ajah, then that definitely rules out Sareitha. Now if someone could remember what the Ajah was of the sister whom Talene revealed to be Black, then the case against Careane could be strengthened.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 07:57:33
subject: <b>another quote for Sareitha</b>
body:
while re-reading PoD I came upon this quote that imho could stress the suspicion of sareitha as BA. In itself the quote says nothing, but if read with the suspicion in mind it gave me an extra thought. It comes from the scene where the Bowl of winds is used (so before the brutal double murder...). Sareitha explains that linking can not be forced, that willing surrender is necessary. She states that she has studied every surviving page on the subject. <br /><br />The thing that gives to think is the reaction of Elayne:<br />&quot;Yet Elayne wondered. What was in the pages that had NOT survived? She had noticed a slight change in Sareitha's infliction at one point. She had questions. For later, when there were fewer ears around.&quot; (PoD- tor pocket, p129) <br /><br />This quote means that Elayne suspects there is more to this subject then Sareitha tells. Forcing someone into a circle would be a perfect object of study for a BA imho. That at least was my reaction when I reread this. BUT I was obviously prejudiced.<br /><br />Taiga<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Harvester of the Waste<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Caught between Hammer and Anvil<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Grand Inquisitor of the Tainted Truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 01:43:29
subject: <b>Sareitha=Mesaana?</b>
body:
I agree with your idea.  I also think that Sareitha could possibly be Mesaana in diguise. Why Not?  Sareitha does wear a bronze dress like the one under Mesaana's illusion weave.<br />And I think she might also be a lip tapper.  Just guessing


created: 2002-09-29 13:02:13
subject: <b>Actually, Tar Valon was taken once.</b>
body:
At one point during the Trolloc Wars, there were actually Trollocs inside the Tower. <br />This is mentioned, I think in WH, when Siuan is talking with Egwene about the secret records.<br /><br />I like the comparison between Tar Valon and Constantinople, but I don't like the idea of Mat tearing down the Tower.  I think if anyone does that it will be Asha'man.  Remember that <i>saidar</i> was used to help make the Tower, it would only be fitting for <i>saidin</i> to be used to tear it down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">________________<br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 14:12:22
subject: <b>ahem.</b>
body:
The walls don't need to be taken down.  Everyone can Travel. That's by farrr an easier way to get into Tar Valon.  Who needs to tear down the walls when they can simply open a nice little gateway right into the city, or into the tower itself?  Seige warfare is obsolete when one can step thru a hole in the pattern, strait into a defended city or castle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Creator of All<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 14:18:05
subject: <b>Cannonading</b>
body:
Thanks for noticing the parallels between Tar Valon and Constantinople. Though...Mehmet didn't knock down the Theodosian Walls with just one cannon--he had several drawn up. Even after months of firing the cannons at the walls, Constantinople held. The City only fell because a Turkish soldier found an unlocked sortie gate unguarded in the Walls.<br />I feel that Egwene wouldn't want to damage the Shining Walls of Tar Valon. She wants to end the battle with as little blood and as quickly as possible. In addition, the Walls need to be intact for the massive Trolloc invasion that would soon burst out of the Blight (as hinted by RJ).<br /><br />Another possible parallel you could draw between Tar Valon and Constantinople: when the City fell, its scholars fled to Italy, helping to start up the Renaissance. The White Tower Library is notorious for its secrets locked up (sounds rather like the Vatican Library, no?). Should Tar Valon fall and the Library opened up by the young Amyrlin, Aes Sedai secrets would be known to the world. Halima (Aran'gar) would encourage such divulging of secrets, for there are secrets that might damn the Aes Sedai in the eyes of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 00:21:55
subject: <b>Gaeran</b>
body:
Man how did u find such accurate information? I did three days of research and only found the thing about the cannon and Mehmet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 00:50:47
subject: <b>hmm, not sure when constantinople fell</b>
body:
but, i believe cannons invented around 1350...renaissance in italy began before that...1350 was when it started to spread to rest of europe, but, yeah...all i had to say<br /><br /><br />funny, i just read today about this cannon thing....800 punder or somethin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> shaza <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />putzmeister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Poimpet of the Poimps&#8482;<br />resident asshole<br />Voice of the People<br />Protector of the Down With The Capital S Shack<br />Typo Master<br />Founder of the Way of shaza&#8482;<br />Best Gosh Darn Dog in the West<br /><br />shaza?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 00:58:20
subject: <b>constantinople fell in 1452</b>
body:
I think a lot of the big figures in the Renaissance were Italian born, and I never thought of Constantinople as being an intellectual city (after all, the conquering Turks did have superior weapons technology), but I guess scholars from there could have helped the Renaissance along.<br /><br />On another point, I wrote an essay involving the siege of Constantinople last year and I seem to remember a book by Charles Oman, called &quot;The Art of War&quot; or something like that, being very helpful.


created: 2002-09-30 01:12:41
subject: <b>cannons</b>
body:
I will agree that Mat most likely will put gunpowder and a bellfounder together and come up with a cannon. OTOH, I hope that he will put it to use against the trolloc hordes instead of the cities of the Westlands. Rand has been trying to unite the nations to fight the dark, and using a weapon like that against even TV would not be in character, unless he suddenly convinced himself it was infested with nothing but DF. <br /><br />I also doubt that a cannon would have much affect against the ToG, which has been put forth on the MB, unless he also develops armor-piercing shells as well.<br /><br />Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 02:46:15
subject: <b>firstly</b>
body:
If anybody invents cannons, it's Aludra, she already knew what was up, she just wanted Mat to figure it out for himslef, though Mat might get the credit, thus making him just another Eli Whitney.<br /><br />Second, maybe they will use &quot;giant&quot; cannons to break down Tar Valon walls, and all the people in Tar Valon will go &quot;oh wow gee! they must be giants!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 07:57:07
subject: <b>I've got to agree with The Creator</b>
body:
Its a little easier to do short travelling into TV in lightning fast strikes, where you can force Elaida and the Sitters to surrender the city, than to wait for Mat to arrive whilst developing a cannon on the road. Lets face it the seige has just begun and Mat's hundreds of miles away.<br /><br />Nice imagery. Nice comparison to Constantinople, but it ain't gonna happen. Cannons should make a nice mess of trollocs though.<br /><br />Dai Lau


created: 2002-09-30 08:28:27
subject: <b>Travelling isn't possible</b>
body:
Egwene's Aes Sedai wouldn't Travel inside Tar Valon. That would show any Aes Sedai that sees the portal how to open one herself. Then Elaida's Aes Sedai would be able to escape. So it will be more like a regular siege without using the One Power that much.


created: 2002-09-30 10:43:21
subject: <b>Constantinople was captured three times...</b>
body:
in 1204 (by the crusaders), 1261(by the greeks), and 1453(by the Turks), not twice. Also, it was the capital of an empire. I know TV once controlled more land than it does now (before Hawkwing captured it), but it's always essentially been a city state, not an imperial capital. Constantinople then contiunued as the imperial capital of the Ottoman empire. So if TV was Constantinople set in Randland it would make more sense for the seanchan (invaders from another continent perhaps comparable to the Muslim invasion of christian europe) to capture Tar Valon and make it their capital. Also, TV was invaded during the Trolloc wars (at least once, maybe twice I can't remember) and by the followers of one of the false dragons (I think Guaire Amalasan- Egwene is told all this by Siuan) so the shining walls have been breached (if you include Elaida's coup d'etat) three or four times already, before whatever involvement Egwene or Mat may have. Also, why do you need cannons to take down the shining walls when you have the one power. TV is currently experiencing a period of internal dissent and civil war which I don't think is really comparable to the fall of Constaninople. If anything, although I doubt TV is actually based on any one real city at all, I can see more comparisons with Rome. So, nice try but sorry, i have to disagree with your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 11:47:46
subject: <b>traviling is possible</b>
body:
All that they would have to do is invert their weaves and then they would be able to travil in to the white tower and take it form inside.


created: 2002-09-30 12:52:35
subject: <b>Constantinopole declined</b>
body:
Constantinopole was also very weak when the Ottomans came. It was like what is happening in Tar Valon now. By the way, I'm not sure about this, but I think Egwene's Aes Sedai don't know about inverting the weaves. If they knew, they wouln't be thinking about a siege with an army.


created: 2002-09-30 12:56:29
subject: <b>Random Monkey</b>
body:
1. The Greeks did not capture Constantinople. Simply the crusders left the city devastated.<br />2.Have you heard the saying the world whirls around TV and TV whirls around the White Tower. So maybe TV is more than an empirial city.<br />3. Entering the city does not mean capturing. The trollocs broke through the city but did not capture it. The followers of Guaire Amalasan tried to caprute the city but failed! So I think TV has not been captured before Elaida came.<br />4. (This is plain speculation.) Maybe the city walls are protected by the One Power and one would need a mechanical way to destroy the walls.<br />I think that this answers your arguments.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 13:02:47
subject: <b>constant Constantinople and Tar Valon</b>
body:
Cocolino, I'm majoring in World History and I specialized in Roman-Byzantine history for a while. There's so many sources where you can find such information, one of which is Edward Gibbon DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, although many of them are biased against the Byzantines.<br /><br />Indirian, Constantinople was a center of scholarly pursuit and was often called 'the Light of the World that Guards Against the Dark of Night' meaning its own intellectual, commercial and religious value in the Dark Ages and its ability to protect feudal Europe against the true empires in the East. Many of those great Italians had Greeks as tutors or teachers. And by the way, &quot;The Art of War&quot; was written by a Chinese, Sun Tzu.<br /><br />I agree that Travelling undetected is possible to get past the guards around Tar Valon (with inverted weaves). I'm rather impartial to the theory that before too much violence swallows Tar Valon, Egwene would be betrayed by her own Sitters (who wanted to see the White Tower reunited) then be rescued by Gawyn from the axe in the Traitors' Court.<br /><br />Random Monkey, if you think back to the Portal Stone lives that Rand saw, one of these alternate lives had Rand hearing that the Seanchan took Tar Valon, razed the city and salted the island where it stood. Their hatred of Aes Sedai IS that bad.<br /><br />Perhaps a better real world comparison for Tar Valon would be Rome of the Popes and the Castello d'Sant Angelo (which never fell to invaders). The intrigues of the Amyrlin, Sitters and Aes Sedai is rather similar to the Pope, the Cardinals and Catholic Church at large. Many times, we hear of how the Aes Sedai meet questions with their typical cool (arrogant) gaze. The same is true for Cardinals working in the Vatican.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 14:17:24
subject: <b>Nobody cares about TV!</b>
body:
... and by nobody, I mean people in Randland.  Obviously we care or this discussion wouldn't be happening.<br /><br />Over the last thousand years, the AS have made themselves increasingly irrelevant.  We've seen three Amyrlins in the series, and none of them were able to control their own sisters, let alone manipulate distant rulers.  Egwene actually has more control of her people than Siuan or Elaida.<br /><br />There is an oft repeated saying in the books, to the effect that if the Amyrlin Seat summoned the Lord Captain Commander of the CotL, that he would come (however reluctantly).  This is pure AS arrogance.  If you look at the geopolitical reality at the start of the series, you will see differently.  Whitecloaks travel wherever they want, openly and in armed groups, even to the walls of Tar Valon.  Meanwhile, travelling AS are forced to disguise themselves and use false identities.<br /><br />To tie in with the theory, the question is:  Was Constantinople still a significant political player when it fell to the Turks?  Or was it a pale shadow of its former glory and influence?<br /><br />Personally I prefer the Rome analogies, with the White Tower itself as the Vatican.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 17:00:37
subject: <b>The Cannons of Cauthon</b>
body:
I find it far more likely that Mat would &quot;invent&quot; a short barrelled mortar, shaped like a bell but with very thick walls. This type of weapon was often used by naval forts to send flaming or explosive or chained projectiles at ships in harbor. The chained balls were used to destroy rigging and were extremely dangerous (though quite effective) to fire. These required 2 mortars 2m appart and a simultaneous discharge of the cannon. If they were off by more than 1/10 of a second, both gun crews could be killed by the swinging ball of the first cannon to go off.<br />I find it probable that this kind of weapon would be put to use against the Seanchan ships. You could use these to toss exploding or burning rounds over high walls, but I doubt Egwene would want the city of TV destroyed by bombs or fire.<br /><br />Besides, with her knowledge of earth and fire, she could be far more effective as a weapon than any cannon. If she wanted to take down the walls, all she would have to do is undermine the walls deep beneath. With a small section weakened in this manner, the entire wall would collapse.<br /><br />The main physical strength of TV is not the walls, but it's position as an island. Walls can always be undermined if you can reach them. The harbors have never been blocked and Egwene has the perfect opportunity to complete the seige with a total blockage of the harbor. Again, Egwene's knowledge of earth could suit her very well.<br /><br />Eg can always Travel to the sub-sub levels that &quot;nobody&quot; ever visits in order to either infiltrate the WT or to do a little &quot;raiding&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 21:23:33
subject: <b>I think you are wrong.</b>
body:
first of all, there were many cannons not just one large one. also, the only real reason constantinople fell was because emperor justinian used almost all of its resources thus leaving the byzantine empire bare.<br /><br />another thing is that if egwene were to lay seige to TV with cannons she would not only bring bloodshed to aes sedi but also to the citizens of TV, now of course that would just make everyone just love egwene and i bet they would want her to rule the city.<br /><br />another fact that you all have missed is if they use inverted weaves then guess what happens! the BA learns how to invert!!! this means that they could set traps all over the WT and anywhere else they wanted to and no one would know that they were there. i personally believe that egwene is smart enough to realize this but if she isnt well she is just not fit to rule.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Counter Mage <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-01 01:22:42
subject: <b>BA already know how to invert...</b>
body:
... or they soon will.  Mesaana will teach them everything they need to know (so long as it suits her plans).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-01 07:09:41
subject: <b>Only if she wants</b>
body:
Mesaana will teach the Black Ajah only if she wants. Egwene wouldn't want to invert her weaves because all her Aes Sedai would learn how to do that. She isn't sure which of them are Black Ajah. Also, she has no idea that Mesaana is in the White Tower and can show the Black Ajah how to do this. Also, if she Travels to the unused places in the White Tower, there is a chance that and Aes Sedai would be there. I know this chance is very small, but I think Egwene wouldn't risk it.


created: 2002-10-01 08:11:48
subject: <b>Not sure about cannon</b>
body:
I think your jumping the gun(pun intended) about Cannon being invented. I think it more likely small rockets will be used. The dream has Arrows of fire, which sounds like no cannon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-01 14:21:33
subject: <b>How Shadowspawn will swallow cannon tech</b>
body:
I feel that Mat will use gunpowder in the way similar to what Rand did at the Illuminators' chapterhouse in Cairhien (TGH: Ch. 27): blast the Trollocs with mortars. Mat and Aludra may use a thick bell or a metal cylinder to shoot rockets into crowds of Shadowspawn. Early cannons (the first of which was in China of the Sung Dynasty in the 13th century) were like that. Not too accurate, but very deadly to an opposing army or fleet.<br />Here's hoping that Mat manage to invent the cannon in time for the coming Trolloc invasion. Or perhaps he invents it BECAUSE of the Trolloc invasion that may soon pour out of the Blight over the Borderlands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 01:43:14
subject: <b>Cannons ?</b>
body:
I do not believe that Mat will use cannons to destroy TV's walls.<br />The first reason is that he has not yet found his bellfounder, so...<br />The second reason is that Mat's talents are going to be used in another way (my opinion is helping the Atha'an Miere). In fact Egwene already has a great general at her service and she wouldn't need another one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 05:57:52
subject: <b>Double Walls</b>
body:
I think (from memory) that the walls of Constantiop[le weren't really 10m thick, it was just doubled. eg wall inside a wall, so you need 2 gates to get inside the city. Shows that Age of Empires actually is educational! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Greatest Of All Onions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 22:11:46
subject: <b>The use of Travelling</b>
body:
I think that since Egwene is determined to get Elaida off the Seat, she would use Travelling. All she would have to do is open gateways into the main parts of the Tower. Don't forget, the rebels also have their own Warders to combat the warders of the Tower, and also, a good size part of the Tower Guard is off with Gawyn. If Egwene opened gateways into say: the warder garrison, the tower guard barracks, the Hall of the Tower and the Amyrlin's study as well as maybe some other key locations, she could force the Aes Sedai to surrender (logically they would be so shocked at the appearance of an army in Tar Valon alone that they wouldn't react fast enough). One other thing, surely the TV AS would have realised that the rebels could Travel when Egwene's army appeared suddenly in front of TV and remember, AS keep secret what each of them knows how to do so surely they have already set up traps in the WT, and some will definitely be inverted. <br /><br />Sorry about the length of all that.Had to prove somebody wrong at least<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Ashaman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One other thing, i wrote a comic based on the wot series. If anyone's interested in reading it, email me and ill send u a scanned copy. lordasmodeus@hotmail.com<br />


created: 2002-10-05 03:47:36
subject: <b>no real reason...</b>
body:
but I just somehow highly doubt it. why would mat blast apart the Tar Valon wall w/ a cannon when there's Aes Sedai who could shatter the wall w/ saidar (Siuan &amp; Leane could do it if it went against the 3 oaths.) &amp; i think Mat'll be busy getting married to the Daughter of the 9 Moons while Tar Valon is being beseiged.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-06 10:11:38
subject: <b>Traveling is possible...</b>
body:
I remember reading once(i forget where) that the salidar aes sedai knew how to travel, but did not have the strength. i also think i read that some of the more powerful aes sedai were with egwene in salidar. if this is true than the aes sedai would not be able to travel, because of there lack of strength. Traveling would be a better idea for the rebels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Bodyguard to the Creator, Franco Columbo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Destroyer of Trollocs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of Callandor's twin brother, Kallandor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Seeier of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> The Divine Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Couchrunning! It'll move you.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 02:20:12
subject: <b>Constantinople</b>
body:
I love this theory and the comparision to Constaniople. Mat won't use cannons on the walls it will mostly be a normal old seige with a bit of the one power thrown in for effect.<br /><br />Just like to say I like Namless Asherman's analysis of AS influence and loss of power. It does reflect Constantiople which was the heart of Christianity in the old days but could get no help from the rest of Europe when the Turkish invasion started and their only influence at this time was Constatinople and nothing else. The move of power from Constantinople to Rome could reflect the change in power base of the AS from the White Tower to the Black Tower. Come on and think about it something has to replace the White Tower's influence.<br /><br />Also to Small Thorny Black the walls of Constatinople were about 10 metres thick and double, the outer wall was the thinest. (Trust me, there still there and I was standing on them earlier this year).<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-02 01:47:13
subject: <b>Constantinople Stuff</b>
body:
Counter Mage - learn your history. Justinian died in 565 AD, Constantinople got sacked in 1204 and it finally fell in 1453. If he had screwed up the empire that badly it would have fallen a long time before it did. And Justinian may have used up most of the army/treasury/resources of the Byzantine Empire, but he also managed to expand it quite a bit. Even when it fell back after he died, it wasn't exactly a total collapse, they rebounded a few times in the intervening millenium. He may have had some slight contribution to it, but that would be like saying that Romulus slaying Remus was responsible for the downfall of the Caesars or that William the Bastard was responsible for the War of the Roses. <br /><br />Gaeran - Sun Tzu wasn't the only guy to name his book &quot;The Art of War&quot;. Machiavelli had one, and I'm sure that there are others too. It's not like he's got a copyright on the title. Sun Tzu's may be the best known one(and the best one), but it's not the only one.


created: 2003-01-28 23:01:15
subject: <b>traveling into Tar Valon</b>
body:
sorry if someone else already posted this, I really dont have the time to rad every post.  you cuold easily travel into tar valon.  first, the actual sisters would have no need to step throught the gates.  second, no one said you have to travel into the white tower itself, you could easily open a gateway into an alleyway somewhere and have a couple hundred soldiers run out and close the gate before anyone knew a thing.  third, even if you wanted to travel closer to the tower itself, you could easily open gateways to places that are known not to be used, such as empty quarters (those of the blue ajah), the ogier grove, etc.  <br /><br />I think it would be quite interesting to send men in under cover of night with getways over the course of weeks and have them all strike suddenly on a certain day and certain time.  then you could coordinate an attack with the forces outside the walls as well.  even a few thousand extra men on the inside could go unnoticed during a seige, and they would be able to make quite an impact in a battle to break through the walls. especially if some were warders.<br /><br />onnestabe


created: 2004-02-03 19:52:30
subject: <b>hmmm.....howabout constantinople=tear?</b>
body:
It makes more sense that constantinople is like tear, tear has only been captured once(by Rand), and there is an army besieging it now.  However this army wont take it, they will be driven back by the seanchan when they come and the seanchan will conquer tear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 10:50:34
subject: <b>Hmmmm..........</b>
body:
Stalks off to reread Glimmers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 12:02:21
subject: <b>a contrary view</b>
body:
- My thought was that the smell could be three things:<br /><br />1. Darkhounds in the camp<br />It is in keeping with the title of the book I would think.<br /><br />2. Other Shadowspawn being &quot;sensed&quot; by Valda<br />This would point at him being able to channel, how ironic would that be?<br /><br />3. Your theory, though it doesn't necessarily have to be Demandred, does it? Why not another forsaken?<br /><br />- Saren being Demandred was a bit stretched and generally points at your anti-Taimendred stance. (sometimes the most obvious is the right thing -is that occum' razor? -)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2002-10-02 13:26:51
subject: <b>I don't see how this could be just Shadowspawn.</b>
body:
&quot;He was scanning the camp for the source of the smell, when suddenly there was no smell. The wind did not change; the stink just vanished.&quot;<br /><br />Why would Shadowspawn stink suddenly just vanish without the wind changing?  Darkhounds can't just disappear, can they?  It could <i>possibly</i> be a fade who travelled away using a shadow, but I don't personally believe they can really do that, or else we'd have seen it done more obviously and more often.  Anyhow, I don't recall such a stench being used to describe fades; if it were a fade, he would have shivered or something like that, not smell a stench.  Slayer could disappear, but when he was Luc at Two Rivers, no one complained of a stench.<br /><br />Now, it could be that Darkhounds were Travelled in and back out again by someone who didn't want to go themself.  But then you have to come up with explanation as to why the channeler would be interested enough to send Darkhounds on a scouting mission, but not interested enough to go themself.  Moridin went himself to spy on Sammael, Graendal, and the Shaido, and it's not like risk is going to be a compatively large factor, especially considering the Whitecloaks presumabely have no channelers.  Also, while jiving with your first explanation, you also have to show why this would be important enough for RJ to write about.  And whatever your explanations, they probably aren't going to be simpler than the hypothesis that there is a channeler in the Whitecloak camp who was Traveling to the Blight.<br /><br />So let's say there was a channeler in the camp.  If so, then it was most likely a Forsaken, just because RJ doesn't make things quite so mysterious when only Black Ajah are involved.  In any case, the only Black Ajah member who (we know) knows how to Travel is Alviarin.<br /><br />If it is a Forsaken, it is almost certainly either Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedian, Halima, Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, or Graendal.  The most likely of these, in my opinion, are Moridin, Cyndane, Moggy, Demandred, and Graendal.  Ishmael was probably behind Carridan's dealings with the fade (some even suspect that Ishy was the fade in disguise).  Cyndane and Moggy are Moridin's gophers.  And Sammael mentioned Demandred's friends in the south.<br /><br />Because it would be much easier for a Forsaken to spy and/or manipulate if he had a place from which to legitimately oversee things, and since a Forsaken is more likely to spy if they have a stake in the group they are spying on, it is simpler to assume that there is a Whitecloak Forsaken than to assume the Forsaken was spying on the Whitecloaks as a one-time thing.  I don't recall any women Whitecloaks, and Cyndane and Moggy are too busy anymore running around for Moridin to maintain a steady position.  So we are left with Moridin and Demandred as likely candidates.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


