# w_comment

created: 2002-03-26 16:33:28
subject: <b>Fighting etc.</b>
body:
I too think that the &quot;rumors&quot; are probably foreshadowing in some fashion.<br /><br />I think there will be a fight but it think it will be much more complex than just Egwene vs. Elaida.  There is also an Elaida vs. Alviarin struggle ongoing and the anti-BA witch-hunt will be woven into that as well - the captured Black sister has revealed to the hunters that she thought Elaida was Black Ajah.  <br /><br />I think it's quite possible that Mesaana will devise a scheme to sacrify Elaida in order to reposition herself and Alviarin near Egwene because it's just too tempting to control a young Amyrlin who is the friend of Rand Al'Thor. But Elaida will fight like a badger and with the witch-hunt closing in Mesaana and Alviarin might be forced to flee.  Once the alarm is sounded, the BA who can't Travel will be fighting for their lives and in the confusion Egwene will enter Tar Valon.<br /><br />I think that Moridin will get involved in some fashion and we won't understand where he is going with all but it might end with Mesaana and Demandred trying to organize something against Moridin and trying to gain the support of Semirhage while Egwene sits on the Amyrlin Seat with Halima at her side and the Black Ajah seemingly routed out. <br /><br />It's very hard to guess out the timeline of the Tower conflict though.  According to a timeline, Egwene's army Travelled to Tar Valon 10 days before Rand cleansed Saidin.<br />It means that :<br />1. Halima survives the first ten days of the conflict and is not busy enough not to come to Shadar Logoth. Conveniently enough, we didn't get a POV from Aran'gar in SL!!<br />2. We got a POV from Demandred, Cyndane, Moghedien and Osan'gar but none gave us even the beginning of a clue that they were involved or aware of the Tar Valon events. <br />3. Mesaana doesn't show up in SL but wasn't there at the Chosen meeting (10 days before Egwene Travelled to TV) when the orders were given, so her fate is very much RAFO. <br /><br />I think it's likely that a sizeable part of CoT will tell us what happened in the ten days between Egwene's departure for TV and the events of WH 35.  We also left Perrin's storyarc 18 days before the cleansing of saidin, while Mat and Tuon were leaving Ebou Dar only 3 days before it.  It makes a junction between Perrin and Mat in the north of Altara or in Murandy quite possible, and quite convenient for Mat since he currently has no one with him who knows how to weave a gateway.<br /><br />Gawyn and the Younglings are not exactly well regarded by any faction in Tar Valon at this point, so I think the dream about him and Egwene won't happen with him choosing between Elaida and Egwene.  He might rather have to choose between helping Egwene or going to Elayne in Caemlyn.  His presence in TV might save Egwene from some trap that would have lead to her capture and stilling.<br /><br />A possible wildcard is Cadsuane's gang.  They have seen Halima at Shadar Logoth and they could pay a little visit to the Tower and new Amyrlin when they hear the rumors that it is no longer broken. I doubt it will happen so early, but Aran'gar is definitely not fully secure around Egwene as long as the Asha'man and sisters around Cadsuane might uncover her.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-02 09:51:25
subject: <b>Just a thought on the two huge Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Thought the two huge Aes Sedai Mat has to weigh on a scale could be the huge Sa'Angreal statues.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Goldeneyez


created: 2002-04-17 15:34:46
subject: <b>Great!</b>
body:
All of the first bit fits so perfectly, I am nearly sure it will happen now. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I am just not sure about Tuon staying on in the White Tower to study the One Power. Although, if Egwene decides she was ex-damanae to be affiliated w/ the Tower they have some talking to do. Also, I don't think mat has a &quot;thing&quot; for Egwene. Gawyn's her man remember? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eilonwy Sedai <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Blue Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Accomplished Dreamwalker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Author to Be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of Absurdity Anonymous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Member of English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 01:46:10
subject: <b>RE: TYING TOGETHER A FEW DREAMS</b>
body:
I actually think the 2 Aessedai that Mat will have to choose between are Egwene and Elayne.  We know from the dream that Egwene will die if &quot;someone&quot; doesn't run enough.  At first I thought this was Gawyn, but It could be mat.  2nd, Mat made a promise to see Elayne safe and she is probably about to be besieged by 20 to 30 thousand men.  Which will he help?  Hmmm...


created: 2002-12-11 14:44:39
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
I think the hawk stretching out might be Berelain, because in the CoT review it was said something about Ewgenes and Berelains relationship, so it very well could be Berelain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 11:51:24
subject: <b>Bode</b>
body:
After reading Crossroads of Twilight, I'm pretty sure Mat will get to Tar Valon with his entourage soon.  When he finds out Egwene is captured, and that it would have been his sister, he is definately going to be upset.  Time to load up the cannons and take some walls down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 19:49:24
subject: <b>Well CoT really throws all this discussion out, huh?</b>
body:
First of all, Egwene was dreamed of her Seanchan woman again, who does not seem to be Tuon, and she's been captured.  So much for all the &quot;How could she be captured?&quot; comments.  Further, it appears Tuon can learn to channel, after all, she's the counter to Mat's ideal woman in so many ways, why not his biggest bugaboo, the One Power?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 21:53:02
subject: <b>Doh</b>
body:
Man, and all the time I've thought that there was no relation to Starwars. You truely are a genious. Thank you for enlightening me in the ways of RJ's thought process. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 21:53:12
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
You've hit the nail on the head.  My one unanswered question: Who is Jabba?  And I guess Rand and Nynaeve are twins!


created: 2002-03-20 01:28:25
subject: <b>LOL!!!</b>
body:
That was hilariouS! But I'd have to think that happy-go-lucky Lando would be the irresponsible Mat. ANd did you forget? c3p0 and rd2d? Narg and BelA!!!!!


created: 2002-03-20 10:21:40
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
May the Source be with you...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 17:05:50
subject: <b>*laughs...</b>
body:
...and can't stop for a full minute*<br /><br />Excellent!  I love it. *starts laughing again*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 23:26:38
subject: <b>My Two Cents...</b>
body:
Ha ha, very funny, ha ha<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 13:21:38
subject: <b>sweet</b>
body:
Jabba the Hutt is Princess Tylin, who was holding Mat Solo captive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Friend of the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Subject of Perrin Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Friend of Jaim Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Soldier for the Two Rivers army<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 01:11:13
subject: <b>Or...</b>
body:
Jabba the Hutt is Valen Luca, who forced Princess Nynaeve to wear a revealing costume.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-17 07:54:25
subject: <b>Excellent!</b>
body:
Who would of thought of that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" />The Troll God<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-06-21 03:06:28
subject: <b>Incredible!</b>
body:
You truly are a genius! The resemblance is uncanny...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-Violence is not the answer. It is the question. The answer is yes.<br /><br />-War doesn't determine who is right. It determines who is left.<br /><br />Dedicated follower of Asmodean and idolizer of the Chosen!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-13 21:50:33
subject: <b>*sigh* nope</b>
body:
I'm afraid it isn't the Force. It's the Schwartz. ^___^<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Insert your own f*ck*ng wit here _____.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-25 01:17:13
subject: <b>i don't know what you took</b>
body:
But just reading the theory makes me feel as if <i>I'm</i> the one hallucinating. Good for laughs all around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 23:19:34
subject: <b>If Faile did die...</b>
body:
If she did die I think that Perrin would think that all hope is lost and do something stupid and try to harm himself. I reckon that Berelain would be the one to help him through this and Perrin would eventually accept her love <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> remember, this is an IF I dont actually think that Faile will die, i'm just pondering what would happen if she did <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> saying that Galad is her man in white...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 00:37:19
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
I really like the idea the Galad won't return Berelain's affections.  But what if her man in <br />white isn't referring to a white cloak?  Some other people in white are gai'shan or a da'covale.  (Don't the da'covale<br />where transparent white robes.)


created: 2002-03-20 06:47:43
subject: <b>Whitecloak</b>
body:
In WH(Offers?) Galina mentioned WC who has tried to escape 9 times. If that captured WC is Galad his and Berelain's relationship could became totally different than if he still was a WC and G would be more open to certain facts like serving Perrin and Rand instead of thinking them as his enemies if he was saved by Perrin.


created: 2002-03-20 09:18:16
subject: <b>Galad makes eminent sense</b>
body:
There ARE other possibilities (Shara, a gaishan, etc.), but Galad makes enormous sense for one big reason, aside from the ultimate match in beauty:<br /><br />Politics.<br /><br />Galad will likely end up as King of Cairhien.  RJ has so far shown Mayenne in a sympathetic light.  That's an appropriate match.  Further, he's shown Berelain to ACT like a hussy, but to not actually be one.  I think from the way he's shown Galad, he could accomodate/understand the persona and see the person that has so impressed folks like Rhuarc and the Wise Women.


created: 2002-03-20 10:18:31
subject: <b>*dissapointed* aww.......</b>
body:
Everyone is probably right. It most likely is Galad, but I still wish it would be Perrin. I really like the thought of the white Saldaean mourning garb. (wishing)- If Faile DID die, we know that 1) Faile finally showed a 'gruding admiration for the woman' (Berelain), and 2) She (Faile), told Perrin to find an suitable woman should she die, and she thought in her head something about it being arranged before hand. Its not likely, but I can dream can't I?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 11:48:11
subject: <b>I'm</b>
body:
hardly a Faile fan (though I've found that channeling all my hatred into one character helps, sorry Egwene), but I think people will like her a whole lot more once Berelain is hooked up with Galad. Then we don't have to put up with her risiculous jealousy all the time.<br /><br />You know, I'm shocked that this theory hasn't been posted here before! I'm sure many people have seen this as the answer to the man in white question as I have and just assumed that it had been brought up.


created: 2002-03-20 15:43:16
subject: <b>Funeral White</b>
body:
I believe it is the Two Rivers that has the custom of funeral white.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Teirza<br />&quot;Wherever you go, there you are.&quot; Buckaroo Banzai</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 16:39:46
subject: <b>Faile Will Live</b>
body:
Whether white is the traditional mourning color for Saldea or the Two Rivers doesn't matter.  Either way, we can see Perrin wearing the color in mourning if Faile were to die . . .<br /><br />...but she won't.  There has been ample evidence that Perrin would go absolutely nuts if he lost her.  &quot;All that mattered was Faile,&quot; and so on.  If she dies, he will go mad and probably become like the poor wolf fellow in the cage earlier in the series.<br /><br />Plus, we kinda need Perrin to make the story work.  We see him (and Mat, and especially Rand) changing from page 1 of the first book from what they were, but they are still friends with strong ties, and they rely on each other to fight the Shadow.<br /><br />It would be interesting to see a Min viewing or an actual event later erased by balefire in which Perrin did lose Faile and married Berelain with a demeanor similar to a gentled male Aes Sedai.  That would be cool.<br /><br />However, I do not believe Faile will die.  She's too smart and too feisty.  When things got bad in Cairhien, she became a lady-in-waiting and spied on Colavere (it WAS Colavere, wasn't it?).  She bided her time until she could make a move.  Rand just happened to get there first.<br /><br />Faile will not die, and she (along with Morgase and her cunning) will facilitate her own escape.  Such has been the stuff of her relationship with Perrin forever.  He tries to keep her out of trouble, she gets in and out of trouble on her own and scolds him for thinking she's helpless.  This is just a more serious version of the same.<br /><br />It is possible Perrin WILL save her and she will finally have to admit that she needed him when she was in danger, maybe to create a sort of Disney &quot;two hearts become one&quot; sentiment or something, but I see her escaping the Shaido by herself, and we all know how hard it is to get away from those pesky Aiel.<br /><br />To return full circle, I agree that Berelain and Galad will end up together.  Sounds obvious to me (I hope this isn't another Taimendred situation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />).  Perrin's just not the guy for her.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-20 19:16:18
subject: <b>Rescue</b>
body:
&quot;Faile will not die, and she (along with Morgase and her cunning) will facilitate her own escape.&quot;<br /><br />I see that happening as well. Jordan has put too many efforts into the set up of &quot;House Aybara&quot; and the Two Rivers stuff to just throw it out of the window by making Faile die and Perrin become the consort of the First of Mayene (like Berelain would give up her throne and follow him in the back country in Andor). Jordan also spent pages to set things up for Faile's return - many people around Perrin now believe that he slept with Berelain while Faile was away.<br /><br />Aram will fuel Perrin desire to go after the Shaido to take revenge for Faile's mistreatment, though - IMO that's the &quot;brambles and cliff&quot; situation Egwene dreamed about.  All the more pointless since Faile survived.  At that point it's quite possible that they meet Mat and Tuon fleeing Altara and who have no Aes Sedai who can Travel with them right now.<br /><br />And I agree that Perrin would probably never recover from Faile's death, even with the good cares of Berelain. <br /><br />I think that the man in white is most likely Galad and that the funeral white is a decoy planted by Jordan because he knew that he would put Faile in dire danger eventually.  I find the idea that Galad could be a captured gai'shan in the camp quite interesting too.  That would resolve many plot threads at once :  Berelain's man, how the identity of Morgase is revealed etc.  Also, it would be interesting as well that Galad and Morgase are reunited in that kind of sad-happy and humiliating situation - both are very proud characters - and they could end up heading West just in time to make a surprise appearance at Elayne's coronation, in time for Morgase to tell Elayne that everything can go on since she has renounced the throne.  Good occasion as well for Elayne to resolve the &quot;Manetheren&quot; situation and annoblish Perrin for what he has done for his mom. And Galad/Morgase would also make a natural pair to oppose Elayne on the Dragon issues.  <br /><br />Poor Galad.  The guy is really heading for one bad surprise after another. The whitecloaks' power crumbled. Gawyn got Egwene, Morgase is not dead but is acting as the servant of a blacksmith the Whitecloaks consider a DF, she is a prisoner of the Aiel, his sister is pregnant out of wedlock and the father is the Dragon Reborn who, incidentally, also happens to be his half-brother.  Talk about someone loosing all his illusions - all he will miss is someone telling him that he could learn to channel.  The poor guy will really really need someone like Berelain to survive all these news...  I could well see him becoming the King of Cairhien too, Jordan has repeated too often that Elayne would claim this throne, it's fishy.  <br />


created: 2002-03-21 03:46:08
subject: <b>You're The Man (or Woman), Dom . . .</b>
body:
I appreciate your agreement with my earlier statements.  This is three times now you and I have TOTALLY agreed on an issue.<br /><br />I cannot say I'd ever feel sorry for Galad, tho.  Sure, he's had some rough times, but HE was the one to kill his blademaster in the Tower, HE was the one to chase Elayne and Egwene around and try to keep them from becoming Aes Sedai, and HE was the one who joined the bloody Whitecloaks. <br /><br />He's a hero and has to survive, but his goody-two-shoes boy scout routine drives me up the wall.  He and Berelain deserve each other:  He sounded like a great character who turned into a loser (and he doesn't even know it), and Berelain turned out to actually be cooler than we all originally thought.  Maybe they'll meet somewhere in the middle and both be &quot;pretty OK&quot; characters. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-21 08:24:09
subject: <b>Hopefully</b>
body:
we will see some radical changes in Galad. There is of course everything Dom has said, no one could go through all of that and come out the same, and I'm hoping for a Lan style change, Berelain can be Galad's Nynaeve.<br /><br />What I really hope we'll see is that Galad is pushed too far by all these revelations and completely rebels against his good side (good side? good entirety I should say). It's a pity I don't see it happening.


created: 2002-03-21 10:08:13
subject: <b>why didn't min recognize him?</b>
body:
I desperatly want it to be Galad too.  The only thing that concerns me is why Min wouldn't have recognized Galad in her viewing.  The viewing is in LOC, she knows Galad quite well from her time in the tower.  Furthermore, she says &quot;a man in white&quot;.  Min knows what Whitecloaks look like, you'd think she would have phrased it differently if she saw a Whitecloak, instead of a man in a white cloak, in Berelain's future.  Even if Galad's face was shrouded, (as elayne's and aviendha's were in her first viewing of rand), or turned away somehow, she should have recognized the garb of a whitecloak if not galad himself.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-21 11:57:08
subject: <b>No Way!</b>
body:
More likely she destined for some Aiel who is wearing white for having been captured.<br /><br />Is it only me or is it not set up that the &quot;best&quot; swordsman -- Galad is going to be fighting Rand?  We all know Rand is going to lose his power and have to fight with a sword.  There is just too much hinting about that.  After all... didnt Bashier ask why Rand was training so hard when he had the power?  Foreshadowing!  And he has to be able to beat the best... and the best is Galad.<br />


created: 2002-03-21 15:20:10
subject: <b>Viewings</b>
body:
&quot;she should have recognized the garb of a whitecloak if not galad himself&quot;<br /><br />That's very hard to tell. In that case Min told us the meaning of her viewing but not what the image was - sometimes it's even just auras but she knows what they mean.<br /><br />She would probably recognize gai'shan robes as well as a Whitecloak garb too, not to mention Perrin in white.  <br /><br />Unless the man in white is a new character, there's good chances that Min's viewing was a bit abstract or that she was not seing the man in white clearly/completely.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-21 20:32:53
subject: <b>This again</b>
body:
There's actually been quite a few posts on the man in white. I am suprised it's come up again. I think one is under the miscellaneous character section- called 'defending Berelain' or something like that.<br /><br />Min's viewing: &quot;Well she'll be snubbed up sooner or later. I saw nothing of use to you. Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels in love. Some women have no shame at all&quot;<br /><br />There's been a bit of debate whether the &quot;no shame at all&quot; comment has to do with the viewing or what Min thinks of her clothes. i.e. either looking at Perrin in 2R&quot;s white at Faile's gravesite or her low cut dresses. But what is definite is that this man will snub her. It all depends on what your definition of snub is. If it's rude then its Perrin. If its a polite rejection then its Galad.<br /><br />But Faile attraction to Perrin in TDR is the same as Berelain's in WH (his back). And Annoura called him a large fool for believing Berelain's attentions was just a silly game.<br /><br />If Berelains affection for Perrin was just a whim of hers then RJ has taken a flimsy storyline way too far. This has been going on since Book 4!!!<br /><br />Perrin lost all his family (14 of them) and didn't lose his mind - he's stronger than you think.<br /><br />And if Perrin has a brain God gave a sheep he will not attack 300 channelers with only 10. A simple rescue would be to take Aram, Neald and Grady, dress is Gaishin WHITE, find Faile and Gateway the hell outta there!<br /><br />The key is the sa'sara. We heard of it but havn't seen it yet. And Faile (if she lives) or Berelain (she knows it I'll bet) will dance it for him and all will be well  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-21 20:42:50
subject: <b>Not even!</b>
body:
&quot;And he has to be able to beat the best... and the best is Galad.&quot;<br /><br />I think Lan, Gawyn and Tam might have something to say about that... and that's just among the sword-wielders.  Jain, Rhuarc and others also would school him. <br /><br />(Don't forget the breaking of Tar Valon and someone's comment -- Min's I think -- &quot;Who could've known that Gawyn would prove the more dangerous?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I think Galad is a master of technique and fundamentals, but there's -far- more to fighting than technique.  Call it a killer instinct, and Gawyn, Rand, Perrin and others have it it much larger doses than Galad does. <br /><br />Either way, there's no way Galad and Rand will fight.  First of all, they're brothers.  Second of all, Galad is not a frothing-at-the-mouth Whitecloak.  It's kind of hard for him to be, given that almost everyone in his family can channel to some extent and Galad IS respectful of family.<br /><br />Rand has absolutely zero animosity toward Galad, and Galad doesn't have any serious baggage with Rand.  A Rand-Gawyn fight is MUCH more likely.<br /><br />The likely Two Rivers confrontation with Galad is Perrin.  Everything is pointing toward their meeting -- soon.  And Rand is no where around.  And hey, Mat already whupped him bad.  <br /><br />But I don't think it will be a fight.  I wouldn't be amazingly surprised to see Perrin toss him in a river or something when he cops the wrong attitude at the wrong time, and Berelain rushes from Perrin to coo at the bedraggled Galad.  We don't see much about Perrin being a notably dangerous fighter -- save for the fact that he wins and survives every fight he's in, and some of them weren't so minor (a Fade when he was still getting the feel of the axe, etc.).  Very few non-channelers would be able to overcome Perrin, methinks. <br />


created: 2002-03-22 08:16:41
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that only Lan is the equal of Galad when it comes to the sword. I mean, if Rand wasn't ta'veren and couldn't channel, who would you bet on in a swordfight between he and Lan? I'd go for Lan everytime. I'd go for Lan over every swordsman we've seen in the world so far...except perhaps Galad.<br /><br />As for others such as Rhuarc, it's not a fair comparison with different weapons. You might as well compare Rand to Galad at full strength, just because Rand would undoubtedly win doesn't make him the better swordsman.<br /><br />As to that &quot;foreshadowing&quot; of Rand losing his power, I don't see that at all. Why would Jordan include Rand learning the sword? Because there are places he can't use the power, like Far Madding, steddings and times he won't want to use the power to avoid detection, anytime he needs to kill someone when a male Forsaken is around, Shayol Ghul.


created: 2002-03-22 13:28:22
subject: <b>Loosing the Power</b>
body:
Beside, there is little point in having Rand being severed now that Nynaeve and many others can Heal him.  Oh well, it could serve for one fight or something like that, but unless Rand manages to alienate the complete WT and the Asha'man and make them believe that the Dragon shouldn't channel anymore, there's little doubt he would be Healed quickly, even the severing occurs during TG.<br /><br />I don't think Jordan would have spoiled the discovery that  severing can be Healed, especially at full strenght for men, if he intended to cut Rand from the Source later in the series.


created: 2002-03-22 15:26:45
subject: <b>Rand doesn't use the Power with his Sword</b>
body:
He uses the Void -- as taught to him by Tam and also known by Lan.  We don't see much in the way of Galad's PoV, but nothing he does suggests that.  <br /><br />Without a doubt, Galad is a masterful technical fighter.  Rand is as well.  I'll even accept that Galad is a better technical fighter than Rand...and part of that acceptance is looking at how they learned -- Galad grew up with palace training, Rand learned mostly through necessity (and Lan's crash courses).<br /><br />Who has Galad fought? No doubt many a dangerous opponent -- to a normal swordsman.  But has he fought anyone along the lines of, oh, Torean or Toram Riatin, noted blademasters themselves?  Hmm...Ishamael?  Before people squawk, I'm certain he'd win his share. <br /><br />But, as someone says, Rand vs. Lan, take Lan every time -- and I agree. Lan's the best, period.  But at -least- until Galad puts some notable victories under his belt and survives some truly deadly foes, I'd take Rand over Galad any time.  At this point, I'd take Gawyn over Galad.  Not that any of these will ever happen....<br /><br />But...the basic idea is that Galad has blind spots, and blind spots of any sort will get you killed by an equally skilled opponent -- or even one nearly as skilled.


created: 2002-03-22 15:38:47
subject: <b>Let Us Not Forget Mat . . .</b>
body:
I too believe Rand will have a sword fight with Galad.  It's what the reader wants, and I think RJ will be good enough to give it to us.  The circumstances surrounding it are a bit hazy at the moment, but I feel confident we'll see it.<br /><br />Since we're talking about kick-butt warriors, no one seems to have mentioned Mat.  He beat Galad and Gawyn BOTH at the same time.  Admittedly, they were still in training, but Mat had just been healed from Fain's dagger too.<br /><br />Perrin's no slouch either.  Somewhere in the Tinker song theory someone said Perrin's only a mediocre warrior whose wolf instincts and luck help him.  WhatEVER!  Perrin with his axe OR hammer is the equal of the average Aiel, I'd say.<br /><br />And Birgitte?  No one seems to think of her either.  She's been kicking butt for a thousand lifetimes.<br /><br />I agree that Lan is the equal or even superior to Galad.  He's older and more patient, and has devoted time to little else than Warder stuff for the pasty 20 years.<br /><br />We still shouldn't discount Rand, tho.  In WH, when he was in Far Madding, I was salivating for a good sword fight.  Seems to me the LAST place a renegade Asha'man should go is Far Madding.  Rand's even more a threat there.  Plus he almost beat five guys in the first chapter of LoC.  We should assume he's an even better swordsman now.<br /><br />I don't care WHO squares off with Galad, frankly.  As long as he gets BEAT. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-22 15:42:27
subject: <b>A quote from Berelain</b>
body:
&quot;I will take the blacksmith away from you and keep him as my pet for as long as he amuses me.  Ogier's oath on it, farmgirl. ... You can have him when I am finished.&quot;  <br /><br />This is <b>not</b> someone who is in love with Perrin.  She is getting even with Perrin for his refusal to deliver the letter to Rand and with Faile as well for her attack on Berelain.<br /><br />In responce to the person who claims that Perrin will not go crazy if he lost Faile.  Their claim is that Perrin is stronger than people give him credit for and cite him surviving the loss of his family.  If you read that section again I think you will find that Perrin barely survived that loss without going on a rampage.  Furthermore, the only reason he did survive it was because of Faile's help.  Berelain doesn't love Perrin the way Faile does (Perrin would have smelled it if she did).  There is no way Berelain would or could help Perrin in the way that Faile did.<br /><br />Getting back to the theory.  I am suprised that this has not been posted already.  It has been 'discovered' at least 10 times since I have been here.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 16:31:29
subject: <b>about the sword fighting thing...</b>
body:
I actually posted that as a question for the quick poll....hopefully it will be use some time soon.  I think it will be fun to see how every one rates each of these characters:  Rand, Galad, Lan, Tam, Aram, Gawyn...but as someone above pointed out...Rand has defeated some very noticable and impressive foes already while Galad has not (atleast not that we know of).   The only time we saw Galad in action was against Mat and also in FOH against the mob trying to get at Nynaeve and Elanye.   Rand almost defeated 5 very good fighters at once, remember he was fighting the best that he could find with promise of a large sum of gold to any one who could defeat him.  This was to insure no one held back.  Also unlike Galad, Rand implements the use of Aiel fighting techniques in his style (such as kicking and punching.  We saw this when he fought those five men)... As far as I am concern  Lan is the best for now...with Rand not far behind  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />by the Way I don't think Rand is going to loose his  channeling abalities.  He wants to perfect the art of using a blade because he forsees times when he won't be able to use his channeling powers  (Remember he forced Taim to let that former Queens Guard teach the Asha'men the use of the sword.)<br />


created: 2002-03-22 19:40:54
subject: <b>Galad waded...</b>
body:
into the middle of that mob and wasn't even touched, whereas the rest of the good guys, notably Uno, another Sheinaran, Thom, and Juilin went back to back and all recieved wounds of some sort. <br /><br />By the way, Mat is very badass. He thumped Galad and Gawyn both while he could barly stand, he kiled Coulidin, who I would assume was an above average Aeil, and I think one time he took on something like six Aiel by himself until help arrived, not to mention the countless Myrdraal and trollocs. Perrin to is among the best. Don't forget him holding off a myrdraal with a tree in his side, well not a tree, only a thumb width trolloc arrow.<br /><br />IN any case it's hard to compare the merits of fighters. Different wepons, styles, and such. And even in one on one fights there are other things then just skill that are involved. Luck, determination, physical state, and the like. I think if it was just broken down to pure skill I'd put Galad over everybody but Lan, but otherwise I'd put a bunch of people over Galad.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-22 20:24:43
subject: <b>Styles</b>
body:
The above note made some nice points.<br /><br />Rand DOES have an advantage that Galad doesn't -- he has the Warder bond.  But I imagine that is certainly neutralized by the two seething cesspools of pure evil as active wounds in his side.  Things like that tends to crimp one's style. <br /><br />I'm not trying to put Galad down; he's certainly in the top 10, and that's no slouch.  He just lacks experience, and experience against the absolute best.  Sure he waded into a mob and emerged unscathed;  Rand slew 3 armed Warders with his bare hands.  <br /><br />Plus, there's still a lot we don't know. For instance, we don't know how good the champions of the Borderlanders are, but I bet they're pretty darn good.<br /><br />I still think Lan is hands-down no. 1.  After all, Toram sorta beat Rand (arguable, but likely), yet Lan beat him.  He's had the same (or likely better) training that Galad had, and a lifetime of practical application.  He has the vast admiration of the Aiel, which is pretty hard to get.  <br /><br />As for the staff-wielders...Mat is the elite.  He beat Galad and Gawyn as noted above, and Couladin.  That actually gets us back to Rand -- he beat an elite staff-wielder in Ishy.  At least, I assume after several millenia to practice, Ishy was pretty good.


created: 2002-03-23 15:41:03
subject: <b>Lan's definitely the best</b>
body:
Lan's definitely the best out there.  He's been courting death for quite a while now.   And he can't get killed!  Lan doesn't have Mat's luck, and he's probably waded into the thick of battle a lot.  And the bugger can't get himself killed.  <br /><br />Galad's good for a show right now, because he's never been in an intense battle where he had to fight or die.  Yeah, he didn't have a scratch from the mob, but that wasn't a full pitched battle.  He's got the potential to be really good, but needs some battle practice.  Doubt he'll get it, though; it might ruin his good looks!  I think all the women around him would hold him back.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Two Rivers folk are pretty bad ass, too.  Matt, Perrin, and Rand are impressing people all the time (in the early books), and they always think there's someone better back home!  And the Two Rivers fended off huge attacks by a bunch of DO minions.  Makes me wonder how Able Cauthon and Tam al'Thor would fare against some of the other big fighters out there.  (I'd bet on the Two Rivers any day!)<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-24 03:47:17
subject: <b>pyramids</b>
body:
if you look at the skill level of various warriors in terms of levels on a pyramid, its rather interesting.  i'd say that on the top tier is Lan, Mat, Galad, and Birgitte.  Those four are clearly the best out of the characters we have seen before.  Rand, Perrin, all other blademasters, and anyone else that's supurbly gnarly would go on the tier below them.<br />When you look at the top four, not only from the awesome things they've done throughout the books, you'll see what i mean.  If you want to talk about experience, Mat and Birgitte have the most battle experience in the world. Matt is arguably the fastest guy in the world. (It would be awesome if Tuon teaches him that Black Belt stuff) Lan has the most experience behind those two, yet it is puny compared to theirs.  He, however, it just plain incredibly awesome.  Galad deserves to be on the top tier from pure skill alone.  And by the way, Warder training is the best in the world (second maybe to the Aiel, who train since brith, practically).  Warders are taught all aspects of fighting, including hand to hand, and even the quarterstaff.  You'll remember just where Mat got his when he thumped Galad and Gawyn...<br />On the tier below that we find people like Rand, Perrin, Shienaran studs, Couladin, Toram, and the like, who are incredibly sweet fighters, just not at the level of the top four.<br /><br />of course, if look at things beyond mere warrior ability, you'll see advantages like ta'vereness which give definate edges to certain ones, as well as channeling.  When it comes to channeling, we would see a very different set of the 'tiers of skill', with people like Moridin and Rand on the top.<br /><br />well, that been my take on all this


created: 2002-03-24 13:03:37
subject: <b>What has Galad done?</b>
body:
I just don't get why everyone puts Galad at the top. What's he done?  What's his resume?  He survived a mob? <br /><br />Yes, yes, I know, he's done other things.  But he hasn't done anything half as impressive as any of a half dozen things Rand has done.<br /><br />Before we start annointing him the best, let's see him beat a blademaster or 3. <br /><br />(heh, Rand also has had Warder training -- from Lan!)


created: 2002-03-24 21:23:32
subject: <b>Bizarre</b>
body:
I'm in the Berelain, Galad and Whitecloaks section and In Defence of Berelain rates 87% for and 13% against that Berelain has true feelings for Perrin and this post has 87% against and 13% for.<br /><br />Like a survey it just depends on how you word it I guess<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-03-25 10:23:23
subject: <b>Toram beat rand?</b>
body:
Hello?  Rand was distracted for one thing...another was that Rand was not even putting in the same effort as toram who was getting angry because he could not humiliate Caroline's &quot; little cousin&quot;.  Sorry.  Galad has defeated no one of substance that we know of.  sure Gawyn and Elayne thing he his good....and I am sure he is, but neither have seen Rand with a sword...


created: 2002-04-10 15:51:42
subject: <b>Sounds possible</b>
body:
The theory sounds good. Who knows, maybe Galad will help protecting Berelain and the others who won&#180;t go into battle (or the rescue party). He and Berelain would be good for each other.<br /><br />Just another thing, IF Faile died Perrin would lose his mind and possibly even die too. I think his bond to Faile is even stronger than that he had to his family. And yes, the only reason he survived the loss of his entire family was because of Faile.


created: 2002-06-17 22:19:41
subject: <b>Yes and No</b>
body:
OK now I think your right Galad is the man in white.But I think that he will fall in love with her he'll just deny it. Look at Rand he denied any love for along time.  He just won't accept it because of Egwene.  This will last until he realizes that Egwene doesn't care about him then maybe he'll realize it.  <br /><br />Good Theory!


created: 2002-06-25 23:14:30
subject: <b>Confusion</b>
body:
Faile will probably live because RJ doesn't seem to like killing major characters for the good guys (or Forsaken women for that matter). But what is strange is how everyone believes the man in white is Galad when there is not one shred of evidence that he is. Also the possibility of Berelain having real feelings for Perrin.<br />?????????<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-03 01:49:49
subject: <b>fun</b>
body:
I liked this theory, but the comment of the Saldean mourning garb made me think of a funny interpretation.  Faile's mother dies, her father dresses in white, meets Berelain, they fall in love and Faile has a new stepmom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />(I don't mean this seriously, I just thought it was funny)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Insert sig here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 20:47:29
subject: <b>Everone hold the phone...</b>
body:
...What about Min's viewing? (The Broken Crown) Isn't Perrin going to be the King of Saldaea?  Thst means Tenobia, Davram, and Faile will die, correct? Anyways last time we saw Galad was, UP north. Perrin will get with Berelain because Robert Jordan is just that cool.<br /><br />


created: 2002-08-09 14:16:54
subject: <b>I disagree ( with a lot)</b>
body:
I am a little behind times because I just finished reading through WH for the first time the other day.  I remember RJ specifically putting in that Tenobia was not married and that probably no one could take her because of her demands for a mate.  But as it went on I totally pictured Galad.  I beleive that Galad will be a help in getting the Borderlands to follow Rand.  But I also beleive that Davram and Lan will also have a huge help in that vicintiy.  <br /><br />As for Faile dieing I don't know.  As for who will marry Berlain I don't know put I am ALMOST sure that it is not Galad.  I speculate that Faile will die.  I also speculate that Berlain will take Perrin.  Or maybe they will do what Rand did with Elayne, Aviendha and Min.  Who knows? RJ does!<br /><br />For the record I believe that Rand and Galad would be a very good fight.(If Rand does not go into the Void.)  We always see Rand at his best when he goes into the Void.  As for best it is &quot;hands down LAN&quot;.  I agree that Lan would beat any one.  I always loved the phrase that Perrin used in the TDR.  When comparing Rhuarc and Lan.  He said something to the effect that [if Rhuarc and Lan were to go at it that he didn't know who would win but that a (rat or something) would starve off the difference.]  <br /><br />I believe that Aram and Galad will go at it and it will be a close match and the only way that to stop it will be when Perrin tells one of the Aes Sedai or on of the Ash' aman to hold them with the power.  I believe that Aram is better than what people give him credit for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 08:29:33
subject: <b>My Two Cents</b>
body:
And here they are, for what they're worth.<br /><br />Whatever happens to Faile, I don't think Perrin will end up with Berlain.  It says that a guy dressed in white will make her fall head over heels.  She's already interested in Perrin, so if there were some point in the future with Perrin wearing white, why would Berlain fall for Perrin all over again?<br /><br />Galad makes sense, but then, so does a gai'shain or someone else.  I don't think there's anything yet that specifically points to Galad more than someone we haven't met yet (remember Cadsuane didn't appear until late).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 01:02:00
subject: <b>what will happen</b>
body:
RJ being the devil that he his, Perrin gets to thinking Faile is dead, schtups Berelain, finds Faile, hijinks follow. Logical progression too. Rand gets three, looks like Mat is set up with one, so Perrin gets two.


created: 2003-01-10 12:49:27
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
She will fall for a gai'shan (sp?) they wear white too you know. It would be interesting to see her fall for a supposed servant.<br /><br /><br />Golden eyes<br />Glowing in the Night<br />the smell of Blood<br />Hangs in the misty air<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 01:14:10
subject: <b>Faile won't die yet....</b>
body:
because Perrin cannot be wearing the broken crown if faile dies.  There is NO WAY Perrin will get the crown if she dies because Bashere has only met him the once (and the older mother in law ain't real keen) and he has younger sons.  Therefore, Faile will have to live long enough to become the head chick of Saldea (sp??).  Also, I think RJ may be leading up to a &quot; who shall perrin choose, rand or Faile&quot; scenario.<br /><br />While I don't think Faile is the right woman for Perrin I would hate to see her die.<br />


created: 2003-05-03 10:37:52
subject: <b>GET YOUR REFERNCES STRAIGHT!</b>
body:
Rand killed 1 warder with his bare hands, and wounded another w/the first ones sword so badly that he died from the healing. Somebody, show me the third one, please!


created: 2003-05-17 02:43:59
subject: <b>What everyone has neglected to mention...</b>
body:
...is that Berelain administered Cairhien for a time and was a popular ruler there.<br /><br />Consider the following:<br /><br />Galad is a whitecloak and easily qualifies for the &quot;man in white&quot;.<br /><br />Galad is of House Damodred and could easily qualify for the Crown of Cairhien.  Since the Cairhienin are already primed for Elayne, they would surely accept Galad based on the same bloodlines and the more so perhaps since he would not hold the throne in Andor as well.<br /><br />With Berelain's past in Cairhien, she would probably strengthen Galad's claim to the throne.<br /><br />&quot;Like will to like&quot; as the saying goes and both Galad and Berelain have been described as exceptionally beautiful.  They also each have high moral standards which (in their own individual ways) differ from the norm.  Berelain may or may not be a trollop, but she has always appeared to have a certain integrity, in political areas at least, and tried to rule in Cairhien &quot;fairly&quot;.  Remember that something has made the Wise Ones look upon her favorably.  I believe she and Galad would have similar views on what is &quot;right&quot; when it comes to ruling a country.<br /><br />Jordan is setting up all his main characters to be rulers in the future.  Egwene (and Gawyn as Warder/Captain of the Tower Guard?) in the Tower, Elayne in Andor, Rand &amp; Avienda (w/ Min as Roofmistress?) among the Aiel, Perrin and Faile in Saldaea/Two Rivers, Mat (with Tuon) over the Seanchan, Nynaeve &amp; Lan in Malkier, Logain will probably head the Black Tower (hm...Leane as a consort of some sort?), Galad and Berelain in Cairhien?  Why not?  Besides, it fits.  <br /><br />Hm...wonder what Moiraine and Thom will be doing...or Siuan and Gareth?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Shel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 21:22:15
subject: <b>a lot of posts</b>
body:
I was quite surprised that there were 42 responses to this theory!  I don't see any flaws in the theory, but it is kind of plain and doesn't really say anything that isn't brought up in other theories.<br /><br />Then I stumbled upon the &quot;Who has the bigger pe... sword-fighting skills?&quot; conversation and I was surprised no longer.  I don't know how many times I've seen the blackboard degenerate into this conversation.  It seems like it took forever for the posts to get back to the theory!<br /><br />Well anyway, my daily rant is over now.  A thumbs up on the theory of course, but I base my answer mainly on the bias that better theories have already made better cases for it using more notes from the book.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance.  Mine above all others  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-07 10:42:30
subject: <b>Checkin me sig</b>
body:
I'd pwn them all in a sword fight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-21 01:20:00
subject: <b>snub or snub up</b>
body:
The lot of you are getting confused by Min's use of the expression snubbed up. If all that was going to happen to Berelain was to be ignored (snubbed). That's been happening since her first appearance. The way Min said it though, is significant. <br />It would have to be the opposite of Berelain's current situation. And what is Berelain's current situation? Right now, Berelain is using her charms to manipulate others. Supremely confident of her skills and beauty, she is essentially pursuing Perrin more out of amusement to herself and to spite Faile. <br />On regular days, she uses her &quot;techniques&quot; in order to keep Tairen highlords off balance in her dealings with them. This has been rendered obsolete by the coming of the Dragon Reborn of course. So what did she do? Set her sights on a position of some influence around the Dragon Reborn. First trying out as his mistress, with ahem, terrifying results. Then there was Rhuarc who did not quite react the way she planned. Finally choosing between Mat and Perrin. Mat she dismissed off hand for being too much like her. Leaving her with Perrin. But this is getting off course.<br />Min used the expression snubbed up in much the same way one would say gathered up, or picked up. This might indicate she'll end up with this man in white. Eventually. <br />It will be the opposite of her current circumstances so she might lose control over herself and the situation over all. She won't even be confident about how things would turn out.<br />Oh and yes, I happen to agree it would have to be Galad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 09:23:12
subject: <b>Who voted against?</b>
body:
To disagree with this theory means you think Mat can channel. I'd like to hear/see your reasons why. <br /><br />Hopefully whoever voted to disagree didn't do it just to prevent a 100% acceptance.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 11:52:54
subject: <b>No, but...</b>
body:
I didn't vote no, but I think some people just have to be negative, and don't like to see 100% on anything.<br /><br />I know that there has been some speculation about how ironic it would be if Mat chould channel, giving the way he feels about channeling. Also, being lucky has been theorized to have something to do with channeling.<br /><br />This seems like pretty rock solid reasoning. Good job!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 12:33:11
subject: <b>I voted no...</b>
body:
Not because I think that Mat has the spark/can learn to channel, but since I disagree that the theory proves otherwise.<br /><br />I think it still it is possible that he can learn to channel.<br /><br />Those Seanchan noblemen who died could very well only be those that have been born with the spark. Those men who can learn to channel are not necessarily affected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 13:32:57
subject: <b>The title of the theory...</b>
body:
is &quot;Mat Cauthon cannot channel.&quot; Not &quot;Mat Cauthon cannot learn to channel.&quot; <br />True, we don't know if the Seanchan who died from adam contact had the spark or not, so I guess I have to accept ursidae's opinion. I personally voted Yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 14:05:30
subject: <b>Thanks for explaining the Disagrees</b>
body:
Hey, cool. It's nice to see people stick to their ideas. I'm glad to see that it's not someone just not wanting 100%. (And this isn't even my theory!)<br />I will say that yes, it would be...intriguing if Mat found out he could channel or could be taught to channel. However, I don't think it'll happen, he's got enough going for him as it is.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 14:07:36
subject: <b>Lanfear is the most powerful Female Forsaken but . . .</b>
body:
She would be no match for any of the men.  I know that sounds inflammatory but let me explain.  <br /><br />The quote from the Guide that Lanfear was &#8216;. . . possibly the most powerful of all (the Forsaken) next to Ishamael (pg 61)&#8217; is clearly hearsay.  This section of the Guide is headed by a paragraph basically stating that all information gathered on the Forsaken was pieced together from various fragments of second-hand reports spanning 3000+ years of history and has been collected and is related to you by a human inhabitant of the World of Wheel of Time.<br /><br />This Guide seems to be compiled by a PRESENT DAY scholar, (though he does not identify himself) living in the Westlands who has recently discovered new historical evidence concerning the Age of Legends.  Thus, this is not the Omnipotent Narrator from whom we can follow the novels and see all the various POVs of Rand, Mat, Egwene, and so on.  If you don't beleive just read a couple pages of the Guide again and see how it's written.   <br /><br />No, in the Guide we get a first person essay from a researcher and historian who, like all historians, must report events and make hypotheses on a time long removed from their own with naught but the imperfect and often prejudiced evidence found only in the reports and accounts of earlier historians.   <br /><br />This writer, who by his writing is clearly not an Aes Sedai or Asha&#8217;man, has grown up in the present and can be forgiven for not having any first hand knowledge of Lanfear and for his inaccurate approximation of her strength in the Power.  His understanding of the Power is greatly influenced by what is commonly believed by PRESENT DAY Aes Sedai.  They are the current authority on all that has to do with the One Power and who would dare gainsay them?  <br /><br />We know from Moraine that most present day Aes Sedai believe that men and woman are equal in the Power.  Since there has not been a great deal of male channellers in the past 3000 years, there was not much evidence to refute this belief.  But from Asmodean and other Forsaken (as stated above me) we learn from those who were actually around in the Age of Legends, that the distribution in strength in the Power of a man and a woman will be roughly the same as their distribution of physical strength.<br />


created: 2002-03-20 14:25:32
subject: <b>The Numbers</b>
body:
Now of course there will be relatively weak men, and relative strong women, but for the most part men will be a good deal stronger than women.  In the real world, I happen to be an amateur bodybuilder.  A &#8220;strength expert&#8221; you might say.  I think I know enough about human physiology to comment on the difference in strength between men and women, especially very strong men and very strong women.<br /><br />Now given that the rule of Power distribution in men and women is indeed similar to the distribution of strength, and that the distribution of strength in WOTWorld is similar to that of our own, I can prove that Lanfear could not have been close to as strong any of the Male Forsaken.<br /><br />Having employed resistance strength training for many years I feel safe endorsing the results of the New England Journal of Medicine&#8217;s fitness study conducted four years ago involving 10,000 men and 10,000 women of all ages, ethnic backgrounds and industries.  <br /><br />Each man and woman was tested in a local health club and asked to do perform a One-Rep-Max of barbell squats and a variety of other common weight-room exercises in an attempt to find the average &#8220;natural&#8221; strength of men vs. women.  The squat is one of the best indicators of a person&#8217;s over all strength (if not at all the only one).<br /><br />To make a long story short here are the findings that I think would be most relevant in determining how many average female channellers it would take to equal an average male channeller in strickly overall strength:<br /> <br />The average man tested weighed 174 lbs. and squatted 351. lbs. (figures are rounded up)<br />The average woman weighed 116 lbs. and squatted 86 lbs.<br />Strength ratio - Man to Woman : 4.1 to 1  (351/86=4.1)<br /><br />So we can estimate that it would take more than four average strength female channellers (unlinked) to equal one average male channeller.<br /><br />Thats fine for our basic Aes Sedai to Asha&#8217;man ratio, but surely the results for the Forsaken (perhaps the strongest channellers in the world) must be different.    <br /><br />Well I did some research on the Internet and found  Guinness&#8217; worlds strongest man and woman (or at least those with the heaviest squats &#8211; and in the interests of expediency lets equate the two).  <br />The current Guinness world record for men&#8217;s squats is 1047 lbs.<br />The current women&#8217;s world record is 508 lbs.<br /><br />Still more than 2 to 1.  So from this evidence we can say that Lanfear (the strongest woman in the world) could at most be only half the strength as Rand (the strongest man) and that all the male Forsaken (even Asmodean) would be a good deal stronger than her strictly in the overall amount of the Power they could draw.  Now this obviously doesn&#8217;t mean that she would be easy meat for them (as she has a great deal of knowledge, cunning, and skill &#8211; the strongest guy isn&#8217;t necessarily the most dangerous fighter) but she would be at a disadvantage.<br /><br />So how did she put that shield on Asmodean at the end of TSR?  Well, if you remember Rand and Asmo had just had huge duel with the Choeden Kal and were so tired they couldn&#8217;t even stand, let alone channel.  Weakened as he was, Asy had no chance.<br /><br />But why in the Guide is it stated that Lanfear was possibly the &#8216;most powerful of all next to Ishamael&#8217;?  As I stated above that sentence is hearsay.  The writer was giving his best account of someone who may have lived as many as 3500 years before his time. <br /><br />Lanfear was undoubtedly the strongest woman of her time and noted as such.  More powerful than most men but not the strongest.  Then war came.  And madmen broke the world.  Civilization dwindled and immeasurable knowledge was lost.  For 3000+ years the only people who could channel were women.  Since the ONE POWER was equal they began to think that men who could channel would be no stronger than they.<br /><br />So now 3000 years later a researcher finds that Lanfear was absolutely the most powerful woman of her time.  So by the writer&#8217;s logic, since men and women were equal in the Power in the AOL, Lanfear must have been as strong as the strongest man, or nearly so.  See, this is just hearsay.<br /><br />Now I&#8217;ll admit that Asmodean&#8217;s words to Rand could be less than completely accurate.  But Rahvin thought he could overpower Lanfear and if necessary Grendhael as well.  I think this principal works because with these numbers (1045/86 = 12.1) Rand would be about twelve times as strong as the average female channeller (or a weak Aes Sedai).  Thus they would need a full circle of 13 strong Aes Sedai to overcome him.<br /><br />I know it&#8217;s hard to apply a mathematical equation to fantasy (and I don&#8217;t claim that it is exact) but I just wanted to prove that Lanfear could not be stronger than Dem, Rahv, and Co.  Did I or not?<br />


created: 2002-03-20 14:32:20
subject: <b>Oh Damn it, how did that get posted here?</b>
body:
I'm sorry.  I guess I had too many windows open.  The above posts are supposed to be comments on the &quot;Not all the Forsaken were Chosen&quot; blackboard.  I do apolligize.  You can see what I was responding to on the blackboard for that theory.  Sorry.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />The Kahn <br />


created: 2002-03-20 16:27:25
subject: <b>Reason for thinking Mat can learn to channel</b>
body:
I'm still undecided on this one, but I do understand the logic behind thinking Mat might be able to channel in the <br />future.  Most men don't start to manifest the spark until age 25, unless they are incredibly strong like Rand.  The<br />Two Rivers boys are between 21 to 23, so Mat still has a while to manifest the spark if he does have it.  The reason<br />for thinking that he has the spark is because he's shivered a few times when a woman has channeled.  I don't<br />remember which book it's in, but there's one incident when Moiraine or Egwene was channeling near Mat, and<br />Mat got a chill/goosebumps on his arm.  That's how men who channel can recognize that a woman can channel,<br />and a non-channeler can't feel this.  Soon after this, he got his medallion from the Foxes that prevents the flows <br />from channeling saidir and saidin from touching him.  And if he's got this medallion, it might prevent him<br />from channeling at all.  (Who knows?  We haven't seen someone try to channel with the medallion on.)  Since <br />he's too young to have started to manifest the spark or to learn to channel, the a'dam wouldn't hurt him.  Add to <br />this the fact his sister will be pretty strong in the power, and there some evidence that Mat can one day channel.  <br />The problem with this theory is that Mat might have shivered because he can learn to channel/has the spark, or<br />because he doesn't like to be around people who can channel.  And just because his sister can channel doesn't<br />mean that he can.  I personally think it'd be really funny if Mat could learn to channel because he hates anything<br />to do with the power so much, and he'll end up with both him and his future wife being able to learn to channel.  <br />Wouldn't it be great?  Both Tuon and Mat would be absolutely horrified if they could learn to channel.  Tuon <br />because she thinks of women who can channel as dangerous animals, and Mat because he hates anything <br />with the power.  And they're shared disgust could bring them closer together as a couple


created: 2002-03-20 16:53:53
subject: <b>Mat Has Enough Problems . . .</b>
body:
without being a male channeler thrown on top of it.  His demeanor, his lifestyle, his distrust of anything to do with the Power and foxhead medallion all point to his NOT being able to touch the One Power.<br /><br />Jordan has gone to great lengths to show it's not his style.  Rand and/or Logain will command the channelers in TG, Perrin will command the conglomerate army of Mayene, Cairhien, Two Rivers and Mat will command the Band and maybe even the Seanchan. <br /><br />I guess Elayne will control Andor and the Borderlands, Egwene will bring the sisters, Bashere will command his Saldeans, the Dragon's army, the Illianers and the Tairens, possibly other countries as well.<br /><br />Everyone will have his/her place.  Mat won't be just another Asha'man.<br /><br />And for those who don't believe in 100% theories, maybe I'll just post a theory that Rand is a woman, and Fain is her lover. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-20 18:12:23
subject: <b>I dont' think Mat can channel, but....</b>
body:
I don't think Mat can channel, but it would be funny if he could learn too, especially adding the fact about Tuon mentioned above.  I don't think the a'dam could hurt Mat with the medallion on.  I don't have the books with me, but did he have that on at the time?


created: 2002-03-20 18:51:14
subject: <b>Wouldn't it be funny...</b>
body:
Not that I think that Mat can channel (don't know at this point), but I can just see a scene where Mat learns that he can channel.  Wouldn't it be great?  He'd say &quot;Blood and bloody ashes, I can learn to channel, too?  Well I sure bloody well aren't going to learn.  Burn Rand and all those fool Aes Sedai and bloody Asha'man!  No one's going to teach Mat Cauthon to channel.&quot;  And, being Mat, he'd end up learning how to channel anyway. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-03-20 20:13:48
subject: <b>RJ was asked about this at a book signing a while back...</b>
body:
RJ was asked if Mat could channel at a book signing in Australia(?)  He was rather emphatic that Mat could not channel nor could he learn to channel.


created: 2002-03-20 21:44:32
subject: <b>Was............</b>
body:
there ever a question?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 00:28:20
subject: <b>Yeah, I agree....</b>
body:
But was this EVER really an issue? I mean, COME ON! What's next? This is almost as bad as that one about how the Creator is more powerful than the DO! No, no. At least this one is true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seriously though, I dont think that it has ever really been an issue, and whoever brought this up is reading a little too much into things, I think. <br /><br />Don't think I'm attacking you, MC: I know that you didnt start this debacle, but whoever even thought of raising this question is digging too deep (ie: they have no life).<br /><br />Then again, mabye its just me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 01:42:48
subject: <b>LOL green gaidin</b>
body:
I agree with you actually.<br /><br />I was on a quest to see if I could get a theory posted by Jeordam, which is excruciatingly difficult to do.<br /><br />When I reread LoC, I realized this theory, and it was so obvious that I knew that Jeordam had to post it.  <br /><br />Otherwise, I am not even going to spend anytime defending this theory if anyone chooses to attack it.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 10:47:22
subject: <b>hmm?</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be funny if Mat learned to channel, proved out to be four times stronger then Rand himself. Then everyone would believe they chose the wrong dragon reborn, Elayne would be disgusted, Lews Therin would scream and for a split second hang in limbo till he pops in mats head where mat suddenly falls knocking rand over and they suddenly switch rolls from a serious case of forgetfullness, cadsuane swears Rand tells her to shut her mouth min looks in wonder as mat start balefireing the Band, and Perrin begins to talk to birds betraying his wolfbrothers, all the little wolfs come and attack add even more to the confusion and the last one left standing is Taim, oops Mat missed and wiped out the Ashaman.Moiraine comes back, smacks Mat for using balefire. Lan cuts of Nynaeves head looks at Mat and Say's GoodWork. The Dark One seeing this madness steps out and laughs. Mat picks up Rand Sa'angreals, and sends a bolt of balefire strong enough to erase all time. The DO is gone as if he'd never been created and the World Suddenly changes, everyone starts dancing to some corney song, the Green Man is Suddenly Reborn. Mat some how triples in strentgh and wipes Shayul Ghul away with such strength it creates a gateway unlike anyother letting all the worlds join together. They see some short people with an oldman going on about the One Ring, a guy that tells Lan he don't know how to use a sword, Lan cuts his head off as the old man screams Aragorn. Lan laughs and does a dance never seen before. Then all the power in the world jumps out and takes Robert Jordan by the hair bringing him Matland saying see what you did?<br /><br /><br />We gotta have some fun don't we Master?


created: 2002-03-21 11:48:19
subject: <b>Yes yes, I know, I take life too seriously...</b>
body:
but I don't care! I must refute even comic theories! Bwahahaha!<br /><br />I would think it's virtually impossible for someone without the spark, but who can learn to channel, to be 4 times stronger than someone with the spark.<br /><br />Now if you'll excuse me I've got an appointment with Matt Greoning where I intend to demonstrate that very few people can fall down a cliff without dying...I will also try to get him to spell his name Mat.


created: 2002-03-22 11:06:00
subject: <b>On a side note...</b>
body:
I'm a little interested in something I saw in FoH.<br /><br />Mat has absolutely no 'memories' AFTER Artur Paendrag (curiously enough, he fought AGAINST Hawkwing).<br /><br />He mentioned the beginning point of his memories, but that doesn't interest me as much, since we see no other comments about that, but....<br /><br />Why none after Hawkwing?  There's no sensible reason for them to get cut off by sheer chance.


created: 2002-03-22 11:47:49
subject: <b>Mat and Cat...</b>
body:
Mat certainly feels those goose bumps when women channel at him. RJ mentions them several times in The Dragon Reborn when Mat meets Lanfear and Amerlyn in Tar Valon.  Also interesting is cat's behavior in the Queen's Blessing inn, when Mat throws five sixes.  The cats are known to dislike male channelers.  On the other hand these might just be ta'veren things (is there any mention of Perrin feeling goose bumps?) or insignificant details, or even... <br />


created: 2002-03-22 15:21:25
subject: <b>Well, he can't learn either</b>
body:
If the luck stuff was something to do with channeling, that would mean he was already using the power, and the a'dam would have hurt him anyway, wouldn't it?


created: 2002-03-22 15:22:45
subject: <b>This theory doesn't prove anything (And in responce to the side note)</b>
body:
If I remember correctly the men who died were attached to the a'dam.  They didn't just touch the a'dam.  Mat hasn't been collared yet!<br /><br />On an unrelated note.  The person I'd like to see be able to learn to channel is Lan! (or maybe Rhuarc).<br /><br />Finally, in responce to the sidenote question asked by Yashti.  Why is it that Mat has no memories after Artur Hawkwing?  You can also ask why is it that his memories are primarily of Manetheren.  My personal opinion is that the memories were stolen from people who have went through a gateway to the foxes or the snakes.  It might even be the snake gateway that is in Tear. (Else it could be an undiscovered fox or snake doorway.)  <br /><br />One of Mat's last memories was of being attacked by Artur Hawkwings forces.  If I remember correctly he was serving in Aldeshar.  Aldeshar was one of the last places conquered by Hawkwing and he was ruthless there, before he met his second wife.  If most of Mats memories of that time came from Aldeshar that would explain why Mat had a lot of memories hating Artur Hawkwing.<br /><br />There are very few memories after Aldeshar was conquered probably because very few people entered the gateway afterwards.  We know that Mayene nobles eventually entered the snake doorway.  Maybe there wasn't a noble with suitable enough memories to stick in Mat's head, though.<br /><br />An interesting sidebar is that Mat has a lot of memories of people dying.  This means that memories were stolen from people <i>after</i> the went in through the gateways.  This isn't really a problem for my hypothesis, though, since it is known that snakes can see the future anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 15:22:46
subject: <b>This theory isn't ROCK solid...</b>
body:
Personally, I don't think Mat can channel, but_ just to play the Devil's advocate_ he might not be affected by the a'dam because of his medallion. Seeing as how it stops flows of the power, it could prevent  sensing or grasping the True source to those who wear it (a la a stedding). We can't be positive, since we haven't seen such a thing yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 20:08:52
subject: <b>Mat and Hawkwing</b>
body:
Interesting point you raised there, Wombat.<br /><br />This puts an interesting twist on the fact that MAT is the one who summoned Hawkwing -- who didn't follow him; he followed Rand instead. <br /><br />This also makes an interesting angle on Mat and Tuon -- Hawkwing's heir, in theory.  Mat'll be banging ol' Paendrag's uber-great-grandaughter *smirk*  Won't THAT set Hawkwing's ectoplasmic teeth on edge???


created: 2002-03-31 16:01:53
subject: <b>what about the fox head?</b>
body:
I agree with the theory, but i have to voice the possibility that the fox head may negate any innate ability in mat to channel. As it seems to create a localised stedding for an individual, then mat couldnt feel or be aware of channeling. The fox head only goes cold when he is channeled AT. Raises an interesting possiblity of what would happen if a known chaneler put it on. (probably nuthin, but its fun to guess.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 20:03:13
subject: <b>I don't think the fox head matters</b>
body:
We have seen at least one other ter'angreal that has the same properties.  At the end of WH, Alivia wore one.  She could still channel with it on, it did not negate her channeling ability.<br /><br />Also, Cadsuane most likley also has a ter'angreal in her hair piece that blocks channeling.  Obviously, Caddy can channel.<br />Thus, it seems that our friend Mat cannot channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 09:41:44
subject: <b>Just a quick thought here</b>
body:
I agree with the theory purposed here but just to play the devils advocate for a minute - what about the possiblitiy of his ever precious medalion having the ability to block any and all things do with the power and what can harm him... just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Dire Wolf who Knows None other than Talborak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;If every fool wore a crown we would all be kings&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />                       proverb<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Of my own free will, Bonded To SR71. May she always find the strength she needs in me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 14:27:50
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I disagree although i am not saying that mat can channel he still might be able to learn. The adam that causes pain to men that can channel when touching would not harm someone that can learn. If it would than how would there be any suldam at all. The adam only controls or causes pain to the wilders or people who have to learn to channel.


created: 2002-04-27 15:08:45
subject: <b>Thank you for clearing that up!</b>
body:
It really irks me when people persistently suggest really idiotic things like, Mat can channel. It just doesn't work!!


created: 2002-05-01 17:36:40
subject: <b>Mat Cauthon CAN channel</b>
body:
I think he was not hurt because of the medallion.<br />Think about him channeling. About one in thirty men can channel. 15000 people went to bashere's army and 500 became ashamen. Besides, Mat is taveren, he probably has even more of a chance. What would be cool is if Mat could make terangreal and angreal. Maybe he could make a terangreal that puts the hole or bridge (whatever it is) to channel saidar into people. Then he could channel both saidin and saidar!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WoTmen<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />need freedom to roll the dice!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />Female rulers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />need to be spammed!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 16:27:40
subject: <b>Beginning of TGH</b>
body:
Let me think.... Oh yea in the beginning of The Great Hunt, when Ishmael/Ba'alzamon is instructing the gathering of Darkfriends does he not state that the reason he wants Rand, MATT, AND PERRIN is so they can be the new Dreadlords?<br />I also seem to remember a part in either tEoTW where Moiraine says a Dreadlord is a leader of the Dark Ones armies male or female who can channel? I'm not sure where its at I apologize.. This leads me to another theory entirely wouldn't the Black Ajah be Dreadlords or ladys or something to that extent? Anyway my point is that both MAT AND PERRIN can learn to channel... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-25 23:19:45
subject: <b>Please read the previous posts before making new ones</b>
body:
OK everybody,<br /><br />I just wish you would read the previous posts before making new ones.<br /><br />The fox-head DOES NOT inhibit someones ability to channel.  Cadsuane has a hair piece that blocks channeling, and Alivia wore the channeling blocker at the end of WH.  They could STILL CHANNEL.  Therefore, the foxhead in no way impedes Mats ability to channel.<br /><br />2nd point.  A'dams DO affect people who can learn to channel.  Just recall TGH when Egwene put the a'dam around her sul'dam.<br /><br />Since the a'dam affects women who can channel and women who can learn to channel alike, it stands to reason that it affects both men who can channel and men who can learn to channel.<br /><br />About the dreadlord thing.  I have not reread these quotes, so I do not even know if they are actually there.  Please post them here and I will consider them.  However, what is Ishmael's name?  Is it not 'Father of Lies.'  Don't take everything he says to be truth.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 20:45:11
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
Did Mat have his foxhead medallion at this point? And would it have protected him from any pain?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-13 07:21:43
subject: <b>Half the Light of the World</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be interesting if Mat could learn to channel, and he had to give up that as &quot;Half the Light of the World?&quot;  I don't really believe that but it makes an interesting point.  Also, we can't judge what Mat's medallion can do based on what other ter'angreal can do.  Remember, it did come from the 'Finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 15:41:10
subject: <b>But what about the fox head?</b>
body:
I'm not saying that Mat can channel, I don't have an opinion either way. But I think your theory doesn't do a good job of fleshing out whether his fox head would have any effect on him not feeling pain when he touched the adam. The fox head allows him to avoid anything associated with the OP so maybe it might prevent the pain associated with touching an adam. But then again, I don't think RJ mentioned his fox head growing cold at the time either. Who knows? Wouldn't it be a shock if he could channel though?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- The Faery<br /><br /><br />Bad habits pay off in the long run. <br />     -Matrim Cauthon<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 20:51:28
subject: <b>A few points</b>
body:
We have to look at the way that the a'dam has been used by the Seanchan. They test all girls. Some girls are controlled immediately by the a'dam, they have the spark and they become damane. Other girls can feel the emotions of damane through the a'dam when they are tested, they have the ability inborn and they become sul'dam. Not all girls who can channel are initially controlled by the a'dam or there would be no sul'dam to control them. Through training damane the sul'dam have contact with saidar in the form of a link. It is after this contact with saidar, involuntary, and unconsciously, almost like a wilder that sul'dam can be controlled by the a'dam. <br /><br />We know for a fact that Rand almost killed himself and a damane when trying to remove her a'dam, but he is an active channeler. Mat did not get hurt but does not mean anything except he does not have the spark, he would only be hurt if he had ever been in contact with saidin, which we know he has not.  <br /><br />As for Mat's ter'angreal we can not say that we know what it will do just because we have seen something similar on Alvia and Cadsuane. The dream ter'angreal that allow access to Tel'aran'rhoid all do it, but in different ways. The stone ring can be used by non-channelers, but does allow a channeler to use the power in the World of Dreams, just as if they were awake. The other ter'angreal that we know of allow access to Tel'aran'rhoid if they are channeled into and once there, the woman can barely channel at all. Evidence of ter'angeal with the same function but with very different properties. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-28 00:32:33
subject: <b>maybe he can channel</b>
body:
i didn't vote but correct me if i'm wrong - doesn't the adam cause a surge in the one power that either kills or drive a man able to channel mad. mat's medallion protect aganist any of the one power direct at him. perhaps the medallion protect him. it should of, right? i'm new to this let me know what you people out there think.


created: 2003-04-08 07:57:00
subject: <b>i dissagree!!</b>
body:
Mat may be able to channel becauce the man feels pain when he touches an a'dam only if he channeled before therefore i belive that he may have the genetic ability in him but it just did'nt emerge yet. why do the sol'dam fail the pass the test? becauce their ability did'nt emerge yet!<br /><br />so i am not saying that he an channel for sure i am just saying that he might have tha ability in him!


created: 2003-08-04 16:10:50
subject: <b>Foxhead Medallion</b>
body:
<br />  I believe that the reason Matrim Cauthon couldn't feel the pain was because the source of the Terangreal is Saidar. Well with him wearing his Foxhead Medallion, anything a woman attempts to do to him disapates around him. Thus him touching a Saidin created Terangreal wouldn't have any affect on him


created: 2003-12-09 20:01:52
subject: <b>Mat Cauthon cannot channel - Wrong! (Potentially)</b>
body:
As a matter of logic, the post, and the 94% who agreed with it, are wrong. As to people's opinion and whether he can or cannot, or if he will end up channeling, who can say. But the post as written does not prove he can't channel, that is a fact. And here's the proof. <br /><br />In the proof of the Theory we see the following:<br /><br />&quot;Simply touching an a'dam can result in pain for a man who can channel when the a'dam is being worn by a woman who can channel.&quot;<br /><br />And then:<br /><br />In WH, In 'What the Aelfinn said' we get a practical example of Mat taking the a'dam off of Nestelle din Sakura, &quot;Her hand guided his to the segmented collar around her neck, and it came open for him with a metallic snick. She drew a very long breath.&quot;<br /><br />A careful, and correct reading of the proof reveals the use of the word &quot;can&quot;, not will. The word can is not determinative, it does not mean something will happen for certain, merely that it &quot;can&quot; happen. Ergo, sometimes it doesn't happen, even though it &quot;can&quot;. Thus, the fact that Mat didn't not experience pain, that time, is not determinative of his ability to channel. Maybe there is only pain for those whose ability has manifested.<br /><br />Thus, it is impossible to say for certain he cannot channel, thus the post is incorrect. Plus, that would negate all the evidence that he can channel.<br /><br />1) Mat is extemely lucky. Again, it is said in many places that one sign of a man channeling is that he is extremely lucky. In New Spring, for one. Again, this is not determinative in favor of Mat being able to, but he certainly fits the bill.<br /> <br />2) Mat's sister can channel. Again, there are many places where the theory of channeling being genetic is floated, and in many places, supported - especially among the Sea Folk Windfinders where channeling sometimes hits 3 generations in a row. Again, it doesn't mean Mat can channel, but the genetic profile certainly maintains it as a possibility.<br /><br />3) Mat can feel it when a woman touches the True Source. In the Great Hunt, Visitations, while being visited by Selene.<br />&quot;She stretched out a slim hand. Her hand was empty, and she stood halfway across the room, but he leaned back, away from her hand, as if she were right on top of him with a dagger. He did not know why, really, except that there was a threat in her eyes, and he was sure it was real. His skin began to tingle, and his headache returned. Suddenly tingle and pain vanished together, and Selene'e head whipped around as if listening to something beyond the walls...&quot;<br />Anyway, she startedt to channel at Mat, he felt it, and she stopped and split when she felt an Aes Sedai approaching - in this case the Amyrlin and Keeper.<br /><br />Proper theory to follow soon on this topic.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-10-03 21:37:18
subject: <b>I am forced to disagree...</b>
body:
Yes, the above posters are correct.  This theory is incorrect because the ability to channel hasn't yet manifested in Mat (if it is in there), so touching the a'dam wouldn't affect him.<br /><br />However, why  do all you people want Mat to channel so much?!?!  He's so much cooler without the dumb ol' One Power.


created: 2004-10-13 20:28:17
subject: <b>Mat Cauthon and channelling</b>
body:
Alright, I believe that is it possible that he CAN channel, I'm not saying that he can definately, but that it is VERY possible.<br /><br />We all know that the people in the Two Rivers run strong of the old blood and have a higher precentage than others in being born with the ability to channel. <br /><br />I've read one theory saying that he cannot channel because he touched the a'dam and it gave him no pain (the a'dam is suppose to bring pain to men who can channel when they touch it). Well, if he was born with the spark inside of him then of course it would give him pain. <br />-HOWEVER-<br />The Seanchan test every girl to see if she has the ability to channel, it does not tell us how they test them, though I'm going to guess by making them try on the a'dam to see if they can feel anything. But, the girls who become sul'dam are missed in this test; because they do not have the spark, yet can be taught to channel. <br />So, if the a'dam has no ill affects on these girls before they learn to channel, then would it really have an ill affect on Mat if he can only learn to channel, but does not have the spark? <br />Makes you wonder at least. <br /><br />So, with that said, I do believe it is POSSIBLE that Mat can have the ability to channel and just does not know it, because no one has tested him.<br /><br />-Mike JC Nixon-


created: 2004-10-15 06:44:43
subject: <b>Mat Channeling</b>
body:
I liked the idea of Mat giving up the ability to channel, as sacraficing half the light of the world or whatever. In my opinion this would keep mat as &quot;Cool&quot; because he would never be able to channel. I do not think being Ta'veren has anything to do with channeling as others have mentioned, as Aurther Hawkwing (sorry for mispellings its really late) was also Ta'vern, and he to our knowledge could not channel. The possibility is there, and the a'dam proof imo does not cut the mustard in several ways (Most of these have already been suggested before me). The one I see the most fitting is, Mat's powers in the one power have not yet manifested. <br /><br />To stray back to the idea of Mat losing the ability, perhaps this will be his way of betraying Rand and the light. Surely with the One power as his ally he can do far greater things that he already has, but with out it, he can also get past certain individuals with out being detected and what not. I'm not sure in what way Mat will lose the ability to channel, but perhaps it will occur in another run in with the Finns (That is to say if he enters the Ghenji {Again sorry with spelling } tower. We'll eventually find out I'm sure. Still Mat channeling so late in the series seems to be a rather silly event in any case. I just want him to remain sexy. AND WILL SOMEONE FIX HIS LEG!!!<br /><br />Love always and forever,<br />Phoenix


created: 2004-10-19 20:08:33
subject: <b>you all are INSANE</b>
body:
Like the title says, you all are INSANE. Where is this whole &quot;Mat can channel/learn to channel&quot; thing coming from? Give it up; as if there's TIME for that. <br /><br />He's going to save Moiraine, he's an ignorant spy for the Dark One, he's going to lose an eye, he's Hawkwing reborn, he's Aemon Reborn, he's going to rule the Seanchan, he's going to rule Manetheren, he's going to be Tuon's Warder, he's going to give up Tuon, he's going to make cannons and guns and bombs, he's going to blow the Horn of Valere, he's a thousand men reincarnated, he's the Dark One -<br /><br />- Whip some icing onto the cake, and we have MAT CHANNELING. And I suppose next we'll have a theory that Perrin's a girlscout?


created: 2005-09-06 23:49:33
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
but for the sake of argument, would it matter if he was not actually channeling at the time? Arangar was when she entered the tent, she may not have let go of the source before she touched the adam. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 23:55:58
subject: <b>betrayer</b>
body:
ive been thinking that there HAS to be someone on the good guys that will go over to &quot;the dark side&quot; there is one in every story/series of this proportion i have no idea who but i think it will be a bigger character a new forsaken so to speak<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-23 00:34:25
subject: <b>What about Taim being Judas?</b>
body:
I mean, if you think about it, Taim was Rand's second in a way, and obviously Perrin and Mat aren't going over.  It's a good theory! But as for Jesus being son of God, well, the Dragon could be (not son of the Creator) the Creator's <i>hand</i>, if you will, in Randland.<br /><br />I don't know, but I think it's good.  Nice job!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-23 02:14:27
subject: <b>perhaps Jesus is the Dragon of our age.....</b>
body:
i think it's pretty obvious now that WoT is our world during a different age... so what if Satan is Shai'tan and Jesus is the Dragon.... hmmm.... another connection between <br />Jesus and Rand is that they are both shepherds..... <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-23 02:16:53
subject: <b>The Creator Is Not Good . . .</b>
body:
Sure, there are plenty of ways to view Rand as a Christ-like figure (stigmata, rebirth, etc.).  I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with it either.  Jordan's done a good job drawing from myth and religion (yet keeping it original), and I can see many readers equating Rand to Christ (there's probably even some people out there who consider the WoT series the Bible itself!)<br /><br />What I don't agree with is the Creator being cast as &quot;good.&quot;  Rand is a champion for &quot;good&quot; (though he is ruthless when necessary), but not the Creator.  <br /><br />Why?<br /><br />The Creator is neutral.  The Creator made all, including the DO, sealing him inside Shayol Ghul at the moment of creation.  Goodwill, kindness and compassion are basic characteristics of mankind.  Evil and selfishness are natural human tendencies as well.  Deceit and corruption are more finely-honed versions of evil.  However, none of these characteristics are automatic, they have to be learned.  Survival is the only neutral agenda, and both sides are pursuing it vigilently in their own ways.<br /><br />But the Creator does not endorse good or evil.  The world is the battleground, and although &quot;good&quot; has won so far, evil has an equal chance each time the Ages come to pass again.<br /><br />If the Light is to triumph over the Dark, it must prove itself each instance in which the Wheel of Time comes full circle.  The Creator (God, if you will) does not automatically award all of mankind with good fortune.  It has to be earned.  Some earn it through duty, honor, hard work, etc.  Some earn in through deception and cheating.  Both earn it though violence.  <br /><br />At the end of the day, survival is all that matters.  The Creator knew this when He/She/It created mankind (not that I was actually THERE when it happened).  How one pursues survival is what determines good and evil.<br /><br />I know this response is a little off the point, but it's important that we recognize the Creator has no agenda other than balance.  The best way to maintain that balance is to imprison the Dark One and let humankind do what it will to each other.<br /><br />Thanx for letting me ramble . . . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-03-23 02:59:32
subject: <b>Good theory, but what about the order?</b>
body:
I like this theory, but I have a problem with the ordering of the wounds. Christ was first scourged with the whip, then had the crown of 'swords' placed on his head. When they nailed him to the cross his wrists and feet were injured. The final, some say 'killing' blow was the spear to the side, which flowed the water and blood onto the rocks of the mountain. In order for this theory to work, it would seem to me there would have to have been some order. So it would make perfect sense if the wound we see in Rand's side is not the only wound we see, or just not the full extent of it. Maybe, like at the Last Battle, he will be wounded once in the side, killing him, and allowing his blood to stain the rocks of Shayol Ghul.


created: 2002-03-23 06:57:20
subject: <b>which one</b>
body:
Either Mat or Perrin, both oif them have ties to Rand, and both are ticked off with him at the moment.


created: 2002-03-23 08:05:06
subject: <b>People don't seem to understand...</b>
body:
When Jordan draws from these places (the Bible, King Arthur, Nordic Gods...), he rarely, if ever, draws direct parallels. That's one of the main themes of the Wheel of Time, he writes about it at the start of every book! As stories get passed on, they change ever so slightly with each telling and through time they might end up being the complete opposite of what actually happened. Which is why we have tales of Guinevere marrying Arthur, whereas in fact Egwene al'Vere and al'Thor were just the two most powerful people alive for a time.<br /><br />I mean, here's a total reversal. I believe that somewhere in the Bible, quite possibly in Revelations, there is the description of how the angel Michael leads the other angels against Satan and the other angels who revolted and finally destroys them. However, in the WOT, we can see that the opposite happens. We know that Taim is going to lead a rebellion against Rand. But here's what's interesting. Taim is the M'Hael, but that's pronounced MA'kHAIL (Micheal) and Rand is the Dragon (another name for Satan). So what Jordan is essentially suggesting here is that what we think is true, is in fact that complete opposite of what really happened.


created: 2002-03-23 15:06:05
subject: <b>Egwene is going to be the betrayer</b>
body:
Egwene is going to betray Rand in some way.  RJ's been setting it up for quite a while.  Egwene doesn' like that fact that Rand's having sisters swear fealty to him, even though she's doing the same thing.  And she's trying to bring all female channelers into some relationship to the White Tower, and Rand's got quite a few women channelers working for him.  (The wise ones, the windfinders...)  And Egwene's got one of the Forsaken with her all the time; who knows what Halima's going to convince her to do.  And now that saidin's clean, who knows if Egwene will try and bring all male channelers under her, too.  I think this is going to lead up to some very big show down between Egwene and Rand, and the two won't part as friends.


created: 2002-03-23 19:13:52
subject: <b>Small correction</b>
body:
Jesus was a carpenter, not a shephard. Well, in an abstract way he could be called a shephard of men, and has been, but he didn't tend a flock of sheep. I agree with 3 in a Boat, RJ doesn't directly parrallel any myth or story. If we use mythological influences to theorize about upcoming events we need to be very careful. We should look at RJ's influences and referenses, but we shouldn't take them at face value, we should try to come up with stuff by corrupting myth's in a way that is RJish. There is a ton of stuff like Guinevere/al'Vere and Arther/al'Thor (which I tip my hat to 3 in a Boat for spotting) Granted, these things are tough to spot until after the fact, but if this book were easy to predict it wouldn't be half as cool.<br />We shouldn't use references as the sole evidence for a theory, but should add it to strengthen other evidences from the books.<br /><br />Back to Rand being Christlike, I think Rand's wounds do parallel Jesus', but I don't think we can assume there is going to be a betrayer because of it. I think it would be safe to say Rand is going to die and come back to life three days later. Not just because of the Jesus parallels, but that added to Nynaeve not being satisfied till she had healed someone three days dead, and Min's viewing of three figures sorrounding a dead figure on a boat. And one or two other hints that I can't remember.


created: 2002-03-23 20:03:08
subject: <b>The Betrayer is an obvious one</b>
body:
Remember in tGH when they went through the portal stones? Mat comes out wide eyes and keeps telling Rand 'I would never betray you!' <br /><br />Now with Tuon/Seachan in the mix, along with the fact that Tuon may come to be connected with the White Tower in some way (or, that is at least speculated), we can easily see Mat betraying Rand somehow. Well, Mabye it will somehow be both Mat AND Egwene. Don't forget, Rand will 'face the anger of the Amyrlin Seat'. Eladia's foretellings dont lie.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-23 21:55:10
subject: <b>I've always seen the parallels...</b>
body:
between Rand and Jesus, but then, that's probably because I <b>am</b> a Catholic. Not just the wounds and the Crown, also the fact that Rand is destined to die to save the world.<br />As to a betrayer, I'm not sure there will be one, but if there is Mat and Egwene are both good choices. One thing most people don't know is that Judas thought he was doing the right thing. He thought he was setting up a meeting where Jesus and the Pharisees( his accusers/murderers) could talk things out. Jesus forgave Judas, but Judas never forgave himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-24 10:23:46
subject: <b>no Judas</b>
body:
OK, so, though I too am Catholic, I don't neccessarily believe there will be a Judas as perscribed by the Biblical parallel.  As I think 3 ina boat pointed out, RJ likes to warp the myths that he uses.  But then again, you can't call him a plagarist because most myths parallel each other.<br /><br />For instance, there is a flood myth in Mesopotamian culture, just as in Hebrew culture and Greek myth.  The same for Arthur Pedragon (spelling?) being a Jesus figure.  But they arent all the same.  They merely share the high points and usually have the same moral in the end.<br /><br />I think RJ is taking one of the lesser facts from the Jesus story to parallel.  <br /><br />The question remains: What whill Rand's fifth wound be?  <br />I personally think that they are all there, maybe even an extra.  I dont think the herons and dragons can be lumped together.  They came from separate sources.  (yes the herons came from different times, but are identical and can be assumed the same, just as the two nails in Jesus are considered the same wound)<br />Therefore, I think Rand has all five, plus one.<br />Crown of swords, burn in the side, herons, dragons, whippings (still a bit sceptical on this, but it does match Jesus)....the plus one is Padan Fain's (spelling?) wound<br /><br />Does this parallel Jesus? I dont think so.  Thats the only place I see the theory going afoul.<br /><br />Also, the spear wound isnt the &quot;death blow.&quot;  It was merely the last wound given.  Jesus was already dead (I think...if im wrong, it still doesnt take away from this statement).<br />So, I dont think that Rand's side has to bleed at the Last Battle.  That doesnt mean it wont, i just dont think that it is part of the parallel.<br /><br />Ahh...sorry, this was way too long!!<br />you know what i mean right?<br /><br />Fell free to smack my theory around.....thats the only way to learn right?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-24 17:00:57
subject: <b>true</b>
body:
I think you are right rand did not say he was the creator but he did say he was the dragon reborn,lord of the morning and so on.I think you are right.


created: 2002-03-24 20:36:24
subject: <b>The last wound</b>
body:
Yes, AshaDom is right, the spear in the side was the last wound that JC was given and it was given after his death. It's a classic proof of Christ's death used by apologists to argue for his resurrection.<br />Basically, if you have blood and water coming out of a fresh wound (rather than just blood), then it's an indication that the person really is dead and their blood has started to separate.<br />There are bvious parallels b/w WoT and Arthurian nmyth, Christian belief (Catholic or otherwise), and a host of other stuff. If you're serious about looking at all the references , try this link http://www.ece.umd.edu/~dilli/WOT/WOTindex/ ie Wotmania is not the _only_ source of net wisdom about WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I* think it's pretty nifty anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 08:51:55
subject: <b>One more parallel...</b>
body:
In response to Child of the Light&#8217;s comment about Shai&#8217;tan being Satan, Shai&#8217;tan is the Arabic pronunciation of the Hebrew word &quot;satan,&quot; which means &quot;adversary&quot; (more or less).  So yeah, Shai&#8217;tan is definitely a Satan-like figure (I tried to post a theory on the connections between WoT and Islam, but it never got postedL).  Another comment I&#8217;d like to make is that in some traditions Jesus is seen as a messiah figure but not as God or as the son of God (or at least, as a son of God in the sense that we are all children of God).  Islam, in particular, holds Jesus to be a prophet, but not God.  I know there are other Christian groups that believe this as well.  These groups believe that Jesus was a messiah, but was still just a normal man.  It was only later that he was made out to be divine in any way.  This relates to WoT because Jordan could be using Rand in this way, as a savior figure, but a human just the same.  Masema could represent those who would make the savior out to be more than he really is, since Masema clearly believes that Rand is divine.  Perhaps Masema, one of his most devout disciples, will be Rand&#8217;s betrayer.  Or maybe he will become a Paul-like figure, preaching the &quot;gospel&quot; of Rand as a divine savior after the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 11:02:42
subject: <b>Nice one.</b>
body:
I do enjoy these &quot;mythical source&quot; theories.  The use of mythology is one of the things I like best about WoT.<br /><br />Green Gaidin is right, I think, Mat has to be the betrayer because of the portal stones incident.<br /><br />It could have to do with Rand's being brought to kneel before the crystal throne perhaps.  Hopefully it will all work out for the best this time round.


created: 2002-04-28 23:06:29
subject: <b>This is fantasy!!!</b>
body:
I read fantasy to get away from the real world. i dont care if  you people are catholic or jack$%#ses. If I wanted sermons I would show up on sundays. Can we leave religion out of this; because their are know religions in Randland. It's pretty much  black or white. they follow the light or the shadow. there are no christians, catholics, jews, muslims or any of the other thousands of didnt ways to be one with yourself. <br /><br />So please no more jesus/rand theories. Hello, rand has killed, must kill, and will kill again to survive and save everyone else. we know rand will not lay down and sacrifice himself because thats what prophecy says he must do.<br /><br />I agree with Wiseone, i believe Egwene will do something seriously f'ed up to rands plans,and avihenda will have to take her out for it. We can all see her changing dramatically to do things opposite of rands. her whole idea of every woman channeler be connected to Tar valon is so whack. If not for Gawyn i could see her being Red ajah now.<br /><br />Last Matt is not the BIG BETRAYER. Hooking up with Tuon will piss rand off but he isnt betraying rand. We all know if something happens to one of the three Tav'eren, the other two will be hurt also. thats why they keep seeing the visions; they must be together again.  <br /><br />ashamn420 <br /><br />loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />assasin of the shadow and meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 20:09:15
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
One BIG thing was that Jesus never sinned, and I'd have to say....Rand HAS DEFINITELY sinned more than once...Thou shalt not kill...thou shalt not commit adultery...what else...? Lots, I think. Not to say he's a bad guy, all in all, but just saying that Rand and Jesus were quite different. And about the wounds, there's not that many places where an author could write in significant wounds. The side, the arms, the hands, etc. There just parts of the anatomy where there could be interesting wounds. I mean, RJ wouldn't put a wound of the same significance as Rand's side wound on his feet or shin or something instead, would he? Just imagine the whole story with the wound not being in his side, but on his....ankle. Not as much impact.  One parallel I WILL acknowledge is the Crown of Swords/Thorns.  <br />Plus, if RJ DID put in purposeful parallels, LOTS of authors use mythology in their writing, anyway. But they don't necessarily follow that mythology step by step, so I don't think we should draw any conclusions about Rand's future based on Jesus' past.


created: 2002-05-05 05:32:53
subject: <b>Agree with Ashaman420 - forget the religious prop</b>
body:
I'm not trying to upset anyone here, but I think there is very little success to be had in pursuing the religion/RaThor similarities.  Why would Jordan want to plagiarise a book that is so widely available?  Besides, some of the links being drawn are fairly tenuous - I could find more similarities in the life of my boyfriend, who has taken similar wounds at work (sure not a spear to the side but rather a nail puncturing his side, several cuts to the hands, barbed wire flinging across his forehead whilst fixing fences) holy crap, I'm dating the almighty!  Or is it Rand?  Lews Therin?  Honey have you been honest with me?!?<br />Sorry, I did get a bit sarcy, but I just think the links are not there, and threadbare though some are, it doesnt give us a clear guide to RaThors future.  After the books are all over im sure the fanatics out there will find a way to link everything back anyway, no matter how irrelevant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="00aa00"><b>Member of Wotmania Writers Guild</b></font><br /><br /><font color="00aa00"><b>S</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>o</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>m</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>e</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>s</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>h</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>t</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>a</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>l</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>i</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>n</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>a</b></font><br /><font color="00aa00"><b>(Help me sink this world into the shadow - of beautiful trees)</b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><font color="00aa00"><b><i>Blessed Be</i></b></font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 03:24:18
subject: <b>Christ figures</b>
body:
One of the most common motifs in all of literature is the Christ figure.  In the Arturian legend, Arthur is one (sometimes Percival).  In Les Miserables, Jean Valjean.  Henry V in Shakespeare's play of the same name.  The Duke in Measure for Measure.  Alyosha in Brothers Karamozov.  Owen Meany in A Prayer for Owen Meany.  Etc, etc, etc.<br /><br />No Christ figure is a perfect representation of the Biblical account.  All that it usaully requires is a selfless sacrifice to save another (And I'm not just blowing smoke, I am acquainted with several authors who openly admit to purposely paralleling Christ).  Jordan is remarkable in how close to the Bible he actually comes (and it doesn't take a Catholic to spot it).<br /><br />He is obviously influenced heavily by Judeo-Christian-Islam sources.  First: Shai'tan is not only the pronunciation of Satan in Arabic, it is the direct translation in romanized Arabic (down to the apostrophe in some texts).  Second: Shayol Ghul.  The name for hell in Hebrew is Sheol.  Third: Belal, Sammael, Asmodean.  Three devils named in Jewish (and Islamic, I think) tradition: Belial, Sammael, and Asmodeus.  There are more connections, but I'd have to actually think about it to remember them.<br /><br />The parallels listed in the other posts and in the theory itself are very valid.  I took note of all of them my first time reading.<br /><br />As for Judas...my vote goes with Mat, but I don't see him completely turning on Rand, just screwing up big time and probably losing his eye in the process of fixing it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Papa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Founder of the Wotmania Writers' Guild <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to no one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 20:15:31
subject: <b>Another interesting word derivation...</b>
body:
Everyone seems to be fascinated with the whole Shai'tan/Satan, Egwene al'Vere/Guinevere, Al'Thor/Arthur, Dragon/Pendragon thing, I just thought I'd point out another one that I found earlier today.  I don't know if anyone else has ever posted this, but &quot;golem&quot; is a Hebrew word referring to a human-like creature made out of clay and endowed with life through some means (i.e., a charm). Gholam/Golem, anyone?<br /><br />First post!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 07:54:46
subject: <b>what</b>
body:
how do you have to be catholic to understand this theory <br />im sure christian would be enough it is the bible we are talking about all christians refer to the bible as their main text<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">f@@k it im ganging tae the boozer<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 19:41:23
subject: <b>Biggest Christ parallel</b>
body:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the biggest parallel between Rand and Christ: the Snakes prophecy that &quot;to live he must die.&quot;  <br /><br />If that ain't drawn from JC, I'll eat my <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-13 14:13:25
subject: <b>Betrayer</b>
body:
I used to think Mat would be the betrayer... the whole half hte light of the world thing.... But recently I have been thinking it will be egwene... due to her accepted test.  She was amyrlin and had rand up for trial in the tower. tho she tried to free him... That was her in the &quot;vision&quot; not the vision egwene.  either way rand couldnt have wound up in the the tower without the amyrlin's ok i think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-10 18:16:48
subject: <b>What if......</b>
body:
Rand isn't a wot version of jesus, he just has some similarities to him.<br />RJ could have just thought some of Rand's wounds could relate to christ. Doesn't necessarily mean Rand is the wot version of him.<br /><br />BTA<br />'Killing the enemies of the Dragon Reborn for fun and profit since 999 NE'<br />


created: 2002-12-19 13:07:02
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
I can see the parallels, the betrayer is obviously either Taim or Perrin (read CoT book jacket.)  i can't wait to see where this leads<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-23 00:05:19
subject: <b>Alivia?</b>
body:
Maybe I'm waaaaay off here, and I don't know that I necessarily agree with this theory, but what about her?  Remember Min had a viewing that she would help Rand die or something....I don't remember any of the exact words but that would deff fit in.  Just a thought flame it if you want.  <br /><br />Also in responce to Bastian, I'm a Christian *Not Catholic you'd probably describe me as baptist* and Jesus was a shephard.  No he didn't lead sheep but like Psalms twenty three says 'the Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want&quot; the want part doesn't really relate... but Christ is a shepherd to Christians, and we're reffered to as his sheep.  So he was a shepherd and a carpenter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-10 22:11:10
subject: <b>3rd</b>
body:
Rand, in Illian, got foot wounds from one of Sammael's traps. This is a quick thought and has no references. If you would like to look it up it is towards the end of ACoS.<br />dark_hound


created: 2003-03-26 17:14:57
subject: <b>A note on the blood/rocks of Shayol Ghul thing</b>
body:
Just thoughts... but just because Rand's blood is spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, doesn't mean he has to die, does it?  I mean, he could get a papercut and spill blood.  Also, &quot;blood&quot; might be used as refering to kin, like, say, his son.  Don't ask me how a son can be &quot;spilled&quot; tho...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;So, these amphibians, do they like, have to go back into the water to, like, refurbish?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />I sniff in your general direction</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-20 03:12:06
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
Ok I really did try to finish the black board post but wow ... you guys are just cut thoughts. One I understand that we get caught up in your own believes and tries to make them true that doesn&#8217;t mean they are. 2 it's a book fantasy don't make it real... 3 there are links here but state it once and walk away I mean gah how bad can you beat a dead man. D it's not black and white that&#8217;s what makes it interesting you don't know what&#8217;s happening next you can guess and check but you don't ever have 100%. So for everyone else. Keep up the great post and theories ... try not to repeat ... and blood and bloody ashes.. Have fun that&#8217;s what&#8217;s this site is here for.... right?...<br /><br />This is not my world I just live it<br />


created: 2005-02-18 09:47:08
subject: <b>What is this &quot;catholic&quot; you speak of?</b>
body:
I don't know about you, but the Creator, the wheel, and the pattern are the only religion I need...<br /><br />On a more serious note, thats very interesting. Many more parallels than i think can go unnoticed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 23:45:13
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
While the DO is able to bring people back from the dead, he's not the only entity/force with that ability.  What about Gaidal Cain/Birgitte?  Or the Heroes of the Horn? (Yes, I know they're not back from the dead, but there IS a whole cyclical thing).  Not to mention Rand and LTT, or even Slayer, who is allied, but not a servant of the DO.<br /><br />More interestingly, there's the point of Mat.  <br /><br />I think such power comes with a dear cost, and one that the DO is reluctant to pay frequently. Else why not keep bringing back dead Forsaken?  So what if they've failed before?  It happens sometimes.  And they can be 'controlled' or punished other ways (the cousavora, for instance).<br /><br />There are other instances where the DO has power, but it is used sparingly (The True Power).  <br /><br />Speaking of the True Power, what's the counterpart to it in RJ's balanced universe?  We haven't seen one yet.  I submit that the balance is the &quot;Song&quot; that the Tinkers search for.<br /><br />Finally, there's the unanswered question of what happened with Lanfear and Moiraine?  Lanfear died, but how?  And did Moiraine die?  We know she's coming back (or at least assume).  <br /><br />


created: 2002-03-23 07:01:32
subject: <b>Moridin</b>
body:
In the end of winters heart it was speculated that moridin has ben around from before they were sealed in the bore, so i would have thought that it means that he was keeping himself secret, and has always been there.


created: 2002-03-23 08:11:28
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
You think anyone aliies themself with the DO Vashti? I don't, Slayer serves as anyone else does.<br /><br />Speaking of death, I was thinking...does Rand realise what he's done to Liah? He balefired her! Her soul is gone now, never to be reborn. He really should have killed her some other way if possible, even if it left her soul with mashadar there is at least a possibility that those souls would be freed one day to be reborn.


created: 2002-03-23 15:17:30
subject: <b>Very interesting...</b>
body:
Great idea!  The Dark One's got to have a way to keep track of which threads in the pattern are those of his followers, so they have to be tagged in some way.  (Maybe not through the taint, because the women seem to have it, too.)  And since they come back with memories of their last life (but not the one before it), they weren't ripped out of TAR like Birgitte was.  I wonder how he does it.  It seems he can't put them back into their old bodies, and puts them into new ones freshly killed near SG.  (I think that Lanfear's in the body that was the AS Semi tortured.)  He's outside the pattern, and since he's bringing people back, he must have some access to the pattern...<br /><br />But, I think he can bring back anyone who hasn't been balefired.  He told Dem this.  And I think he's unwilling to bring back traitors like Asmodean.  (Interesting that he thought that Asmo was a traitor; Lanfear knew that he wasn't really; she must have lied to the DO.)  I think he just needs a freshly killed body to insert the soul into (or maybe a soulless body like a gray man?  hmmm...), which is why he can't bring people back in their original form.  <br /><br />Great theory!  It make a lot of sense.


created: 2002-03-23 18:25:34
subject: <b>Are we sure the bodies used are dead?</b>
body:
When the DO &quot;gave&quot; Lanfear and the 'Gars new bodies, I thought that he used live bodies. I thought that somehow the soul was ripped out of the live body and replaced with the soul of the one that the DO wanted to inhabit the body. If the DO could re-animate a dead body with the soul in it, why not just reanimate the Forsaken's old body? Instead, all of the reanimated Forsaken are in new bodies. Any thoughts, proofs, or dis-proofs on this? <br /><br />And, no, I don't know what happens to the original soul that was ripped out of the body that was then used to house the Forsaken's soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-24 01:34:33
subject: <b>Soul Destroyers</b>
body:
Very interesting theory.  In reply to Entwife above we have a good candidate for a soul destroyer in the Draghkar.  It says in the white book that victims unlucky enough to be kissed by a Draghkar but saved before the moment of death are left as empty, soulless shells.  Perfect for a new soul to be installed, maybe the Draughkar were created for this very purpose.


created: 2002-03-24 11:19:08
subject: <b>Bayside, you may be right</b>
body:
Good idea about the Drahkar (sp?). Excellent idea about where the soul went.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-24 16:54:02
subject: <b>3 in a boat, I seem to remember...</b>
body:
RJ stating that people who were balefired could be born again as would happen naturally.  I'll search the transcripts and see if I can find an exact place and time that he said it.


created: 2002-03-25 13:13:28
subject: <b>Just a little point</b>
body:
&quot;If the DO could re-animate a dead body with the soul in it, why not just reanimate the Forsaken's old body? Instead, all of the reanimated Forsaken are in new bodies. Any thoughts, proofs, or dis-proofs on this?&quot; <br /><br />It doesn't prove or disprove anyhting but in most of the cases you mention the DO did not have access to the bodies and/or they were seriously destroyed.  In Lanfear's case we don't know enough of what exactly happened to her with the Finns but possibly the DO couldn't reach her there until she died and her soul became reachable to him.<br /><br />So far, we don't know if the DO can or cannot re-animate dead bodies by putting a soul back in. I guess we might have to wait until someone brings him the dead body of a defeated Chosen or until a death/resurection happen at  Shayol Ghul itself.  He must work with existing bodies and can't create his own, at least that much seems clear.<br /><br /><br />That said, it would make a lot of sense that the DO can't give life and is limited to either sustain it eternally or put souls in stolen live bodies. That fits more with the profile of an &quot;Evil God&quot;, usually they can't create, just pervert the existing energy/life. <br /><br />----<br /><br />I think the Guide mentions the DO promising immortality to deserving darkfriends who couldn't channel, not only to the channelers. I don't think the DO's transmigration trick is limited to channelers.<br />


created: 2002-03-25 14:33:13
subject: <b>Re: Just a little point</b>
body:
&quot;I think the Guide mentions the DO promising immortality to deserving darkfriends who couldn't channel, not only to the channelers. I don't think the DO's transmigration trick is limited to channelers.&quot;<br /><br />I also thought of such a possibility, but I did not mention it because as I said, there is no evidence showing that it has/can be done.  I would argue though that any immortality has to be done by a visit to Shayol Ghul where the link making it possible can be established.  This would be in keeping with my theory as all the forsaken have been to Shayol Ghul and might also explain why dreadlords have not been revived (that we know of) because though they were chanelers they might not have been to the Dark One's Prison, or where perhaps balefired to death there is no enough information about them to know.<br /><br />//i\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 13:47:48
subject: <b>black thread</b>
body:
the black thread protects the male forsaken from the taint.  I don't think anyone has seen any on the female forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 12:07:34
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
<br />Response to Iron Chef:<br /><br />As I mentioned in my theory there is no clear proof that the events connected with Kari Al'thor occured because they happened during one of the dream sequences, so there is no way to know if what Rand saw was true or simply some kind of trickery pepetrated by Ishamael.  To date we do not know of a non-chaneler walking around in someone else's body that the Dark One has brought back.<br /><br />Response to Mandrag:<br /><br />Also as I mentioned in my theory, just because there does not appear to be such a link between the female forsaken and the Dark One it does not mean that such a thing does not exist.  In fact it is interesting to note that Lanfear knew that Asmodean had had his connection snapped.  While it is true that she might have known about the link from other male chanelers, it does not seem like something they would reveal as it is a weakness that could be exploited by the females viying for the favor of the Dark One.  Also, as I mentioned, the existence of such a connection would also explain how the Dark One can allow/deny the use of the One Power which can be used by men or women.  Without a connection, how would it know?<br /><br />//i\\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 12:14:39
subject: <b>Graendal</b>
body:
In WH 13, she made a comment about the male channelers, insinuating that the DO may no longer trust those who channel saidin if the taint is removed.  She also says that they had to be as fearful or Rand's success or failure.<br /><br />That doesn't prove but implies that the threads really are there to keep the male Chosen from touching the taint, that they would be gone after the cleansing and that there isn't any other &quot;physical&quot; link to the DO beyond that (otherwise if both genders had them he would still trust the males as much as the females). Also, why use mindtraps for the Chosen if the DO can simply tell them that he can remove the link that allows their ressurection if they don't behave?  <br /><br />To see the link gone would be a relief for the male Chosen who have to depend on the DO's favor but Graendal was implying that the males would have to be more cautious of the way they obey the DO when saidin is cleansed, because he won't have anymore that hook on them that forces them to be loyal.  They won't benefit anymore from a certain freedom to further their personal schemes now that the DO will be more wary of them.  Moridin (who might well have order her to say that) emphasized her comment by adding that the DO trusted all of them, for now.<br /><br />As for resurrecting non-channelers, what about Luc/Isam? The Dark Prophecy mentionned that one of them was dead and the other alive.  It's a complex and special case, but whatever the DO did to them he can apparently work his tricks with the souls of non-channelers, even dead ones.  In that case, from all the descriptions we got so far, the two bodies used are apparently the original ones as well.<br /><br />There is also the case of Fain/Mordeth.  Mordeth's soul entered Fain's body (without apparently pushing out Fain's soul). In that case, Mashadar seems to have kept Mordeth's soul from going wherever souls go when they leave their host-body (and Mashadar probably has/had Sammael's as well). It does sound like what the DO might be lying about is that he may not be the only one who can separate/unite souls and bodies at will, but perhaps because he is outside the pattern he might be the only being who can access and identify the souls of the dead.


created: 2002-03-28 14:11:33
subject: <b>and</b>
body:
another obvious situation of dual souls is Rand and LTT.  Perhaps Moridin will have a farmer talking to him in the back of his head...


created: 2002-03-28 17:30:21
subject: <b>Vashti PLEASE!</b>
body:
You never cease to amaze.  Three in a boat i agree with you in that you either serve the DO or you don't.  Vashti PLEASE go back and look up the effects of balefire.  I think you'll find the answer your looking for.  Hang on I'll save you the trouble.  If you die as a result of balefire you can't be brought back.  It's not that the DO only has so much gas left in the tank.  If he could he would.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 15:49:02
subject: <b>About Asmodean</b>
body:
I'm sure that by now someone has said this before on this thread but...<br /><br />   There's a really simple reason that Shaitan didn't bring back Asmo. Not because he couldn't, but because he doesn't have the desire to do so. The man had already proved himself to be a willow in the wind. He's a livin for the now type bloke that goes with whomever can keep him in the red for the moment. <br /><br />   Thus if Shaitan brings him back to life he can't trust that Asmo won't just turn tail again and run back to Rand. Even with a mindtrap Asmo is still useless, because he's more concerned about survival of himself than further the plans of the dark. While everyone else was working on securring their power and helping the cause, Asmo was hiding out hoping that more would die before he'd be needed.<br /><br />   The only reason to Mind Trap him and give him over to Moridin would be for torute, and I think it's no Mystery who'd do a better job of making asmo suffer if the choices are Moridin or The Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-30 17:02:47
subject: <b>the black thread</b>
body:
The black thread connected to Ish. at the end of EotW was Ish using the True Power.  We all know that he used it some (especially if you believe that Moridin is Ish. come back).  Rand did NOT do anything such as severing the tie from the DO, he basically just cut him off from his power.<br /><br />Part 2: (my own theory)<br /><br />The net that was on Asmodean, which was cut away by Rand, exists on every one of the Forsaken.  Asmo has been the only one that we have seen that close (rolling on the ground fighting kinda close) to see the net.  We don't know what benefits this net gives to female channelers in addition to life, unlike that we know it protects males from the taint.  I also believe that the net provides the link for reincarnation and if Rand could ever start breaking those nets away form the other Forsaken he could just kill them and be done, without *having* to balefire them to keep them dead.


created: 2002-11-10 00:28:46
subject: <b>re:</b>
body:
&quot;If the DO could re-animate a dead body with the soul in it, why not just reanimate the Forsaken's old body? Instead, all of the reanimated Forsaken are in new bodies. Any thoughts, proofs, or dis-proofs on this?&quot; <br /><br />In response to this, I would say that there are certain tactical advantages to appearing in a body different from that in which you are expected to appear.<br /><br />In response to the theory, I would say that both the Kari Al'Thor part, and the quote saying &quot;you will serve me dead or alive&quot; are both completely irrelevant.  Seeing as they were uttered not by Shai'tan himself, but by a delusional compulsively lying madman.<br /><br />just my two cents...


created: 2003-01-27 03:59:29
subject: <b>Sources of Power</b>
body:
I think that the so called &quot;TRUE POWER&quot; is only a cheap imitation of the one power. In reality, the true power is just the DO's own influence over an individual. A lending of perceived power that slowly turns the user into an extension of the DO.<br /><br />The DO cannot create life, cannot create souls, and cannot bring anyone back from oblivion.<br /><br />I do believe that Rand saved the soul of Kari al'Thor in tEotW, and that this was a gambit that failed on the part of Ishmael. He probably expected Rand to fall into despair. Did Ishmael know that Kari was not Rand's mother? <br /><br />For that matter, how much do the Forsaken understand a world that is three thousand years beyond there own? (with the exception of Ishmael).<br /><br />


created: 2004-12-01 16:52:23
subject: <b>hhmmmmmm</b>
body:
intersting, makes me want to read the eye of the world again<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-12 00:47:52
subject: <b>Asmodean could come back</b>
body:
You say that Asmodean couldn't come back because his link to the dark one was severed, but didn't the same thing happen to Aginor? And Aginor came back<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 22:38:34
subject: <b>Ha!</b>
body:
I got the first vote! Ha! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Oh, and this was extremely funny. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 23:57:08
subject: <b>Answer</b>
body:
In answer to Jeordam's question...they could use and infinitly large funnel and point the little end right in borderlander's driveway...give a little nudge and you have oily taint all over borderlander's driveway....but then it would have to be infinitly large....and why would someone have an infinitly large driveway??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 11:07:42
subject: <b>taint spots in the driveway</b>
body:
Ya know, I thought it was just me, but I have lots of oily, black spots in my driveway.  And when any of our animals (or me for that matter) try to lick it up, we usually run around our lawn crazy as well.  Not to mention, our lawn doesnt seem to grow, usually wierd distorted plants take over the gardens as well.  <br /><br />Come to think of it, my neighbors have similar spots as well.....maybe the infinite Taint got sprinkled over all of our driveways and lawns. <br /><br />Thanks Rand, by saving your precious little wierdo friends, you screwed over my chances at getting the Lawn of the Month.<br /><br />Oh, and you will be getting my gardening bills from now on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 11:38:37
subject: <b>To Jeo:</b>
body:
I don't think that the taint  or the OP is a tangible thing. It is not physical. If you look at the use of atomic weapons, mass is converted to energy with particles that are beyond our ability to see, but the power is unbelievable. Also, when Rand moves the taint, it's more of a battle within himself (He doesnt go physically to the Source), So with the Choden Kal that have the power to destroy the World, mabye he could move it if the Power is only say... as big as a puddle. Then again, there was the Eye of the World. Hmmm...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 19:46:25
subject: <b>Bad Habits</b>
body:
Everything happens for a reason my friend.  Perhaps it is time to give up the smokes....<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />p.s.  my wife has been trying to get me to stop smoking for years.  I told her I would stop when I finish reading the last WoT book.  That should give me another 20 years or so...


created: 2002-03-28 11:05:55
subject: <b>I think he put the Taint into the weedkiller the keeps killing my lawn instead</b>
body:
(title)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 19:17:09
subject: <b>Theory on.......</b>
body:
It seems to me that all the people using this site have been affected with the taint.  The usually insightfull theories are gone and replaced with mad ramblings.  Either that or you all need book 10 released now as the theories have become stale and moldy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 02:04:03
subject: <b>HEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHE!!!!</b>
body:
Need I say more?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smiter of cornflakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Legolas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sporks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The one and only BogDog <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 10:16:31
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree. Rand must have put the Taint on driveways and lawns across the world. I'm beginning to see the effects too.<br />My neighbors dog walked into my yard at one end, (I haven't mowed my grass in many years, and now I'm afraid to.) <br />and it came out a Darkhound. I shot it. My neighbors were really upset. A friend of mine was licking a puddle of Taint on<br />my driveway. I ran him over. His mom was really upset. I thought the garden hose was a Worm. I hacked it apart with <br />my sword. My dad was really upset. All in all, my day was bad. I'm gonna kick Rand's ass...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 15:32:05
subject: <b>Update...</b>
body:
The police came after I ran over my friend. I told them I did it because the Taint had him in it's grip. They asked what the Taint was. I told them. I even SHOWED them. They didn't want to crouch down and peer at it like I did. They thought I was crazy. They arrested me. This day keeps getting worse and worse. I'm in a padded cell now. They try to give me funny pills. It smells funny here. Someone help me? I won't get out for years. That means I'll miss everything from now until eight months before the release of Book 11. Damn Taint... Now I'm talking in choppy sentences... Someone really should kill Rand...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 15:33:22
subject: <b>To Jeordam: The taint is not infinite</b>
body:
Remember:  the taint covers the <i>surface</i> of <i>saidin</i>; it does not surround it, so it most likely is finite.<br /><br />Let's say that the True Source is accessed through some sort of interface, such as the surface of a lake.  All I have to do to pollute the lake and make it unusable to anyone (safely, anyway...) is pour a few gallons of motor oil on the surface.  By analogy, the True Source could be tainted in a similar way.<br /><br />Perhaps you're getting stuck on the river analogy many people use for accessing the Source.  This phenomenon could be analogous to the following scenario:  you want to drink from a river, but the only place you can get to the shore is covered in caustic soda pellets.  You thus must wade through these caustic pellets on the shore to access the water.<br /><br />Any way you think of it, it's quite reasonable to imagine the True Source being of infinite volume, but the taint being finite in volume.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 10:21:08
subject: <b>To respond...</b>
body:
The taint was destroyed (responding to someone's comment about how could Rand and Nynaeve move something<br />that big) unless anyone forgets Shadar Logoth being blown to smithereens and Moghedien jolted here and there from the<br />force of the &quot;detonation&quot; let's call it.  They say there was a huge crater there, and they keep muttering that it's clean.<br />I'd say that's pretty thorough.  Also, since the Coedan Kal apparently provide enoughor the Power to challenge the CREATOR,<br />it seems logical they could remove the Dark One's backslash.  Lanfear was certain they could destroy the DO<br />himself.  The taint was just a counterstroke, not the full thing.


created: 2002-04-01 20:37:55
subject: <b>To Kaiser Karl</b>
body:
Is not a fraction of infinity also infinite?<br />Is not the surface of an infanite sphere vast beyond measure?<br />Is not this an odd sentence structure to be using?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 12:21:42
subject: <b>ahh, math</b>
body:
ok, as to surfaces and infinity.....now, if i remember correcty from my Calculus class, there was some sorta series and set of equations that dealt with such things...yeah, calculus is wierd like that...<br />anyways, there was one thing where like an infinite cone could hold a finite amount of fluid...or vice versa....so fractions of infinity are really wierd.....<br />but, since i dont remember that stuff, ill just leave it at that<br /><br />oh, and yes, the taint was moved into our world....<br />oooh , tainted love.......blah!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 18:56:06
subject: <b>Best Theory Ever</b>
body:
Usually i am disapointed when someone says something is funny around here, but this is good comedy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Codman25<br />&quot;Your Heart is Free, Have the Courage to Follow It&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 01:00:10
subject: <b>Big Taint / Little Puddle?</b>
body:
The answer is obvious...  RANDLAND IS TINY!<br /><br />I say look around in your backyard.  If you find a hollow pebble with a badly patched hole in it, DROP IT IN YOUR BARBECUE!  You could be saving Rand &amp; co. a whole lot of trouble...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 20:17:48
subject:
<b>LOL! And I thought the taint got into the previously small patch of poison ivy behind my house.</b>

body:
Maybe the taint got sucked all the way down through the core of Rand's world, then back up, emerged right next to a portal stone in another hemisphere, and triggered the signs for *our* world (generally believed to be the SUV and Starbucks icons). It couldn't, however, emerge fully at one site due to generally high import tariffs. So, the taint split up into lots of little offshoots (sort of like when the Emperor of Dune deconstructed to a multitude of baby sandworms) and found its way into places where it could sense a strong concentration of thoughts focused on some of the more, ummm. . .abstract. . .matters related to WoT.<br /><br />As to how the infinite mass of saidin could be moved, well, maybe those particular sa'angreal can access an infinite amount of force, i.e. the One Power. That would account for the prominent doppler shift seen by a little-known character who walks around in a lab coat with a blackboard muttering something about the One Power and unified fields. (I know that isn't in the book, but am sure RJ merely overlooked it. After all, there was a lot going on.)<br /><br />Or maybe it's just the madness creeping in already.


created: 2004-06-09 01:40:29
subject: <b>Oi!</b>
body:
Oil. The word for that is oil. The word for me is literal bitch, but thats another story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 08:28:15
subject: <b>Stop talking about your Taint</b>
body:
Seriously guys, no one wants to hear about your taints.  <br /><br />As for where the Dark One's taint went, I think a better question is why use your taint as a counter-stroke?  I mean it is pretty disgusting, hell I sure wouldn't want to drink water from someone's taint, but if you are the freaking dark one, you would think you could come up with something more deadly?  <br /><br />That said, I guess the dark one had a really huge taint, and if the taint extended from the bore (a hole) what I want to know is once you've handled the taint, pulling it away from the hole, what do you do with the Junk?<br /><br />PS<br />I feel sorry for Shadar Logoth: I wouldn't want to meld with anyone's taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Muahahah!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> I like these smilies!!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Longwinded, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Perverted, yep, that's me... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-14 21:09:55
subject: <b>me too...</b>
body:
there's a little bit of the taint in my garage as well. a little black spot that we cover with newspaper. my mom parks over it, and thusly, her car craps out all too often. i love it when idiocy makes sence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Men fight when they should run,and fools fight when they should run. But I had no need to say it twice.&quot; -Faile ni Bashere t'Aybara<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> NARG SMART!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 00:56:48
subject: <b>my comments on a great theory</b>
body:
As for the fire, bit- I think Mat could easily produce Fire.  Basically, what I think will happen is that Mat will run into Aludra before he leaves Ebou Dar.  Somehow Mat will get some of Aludra's matches.  Case closed, Mat now has a way of producing fire.<br /><br />I also think that something similar might happen, especially the convergence of both the real and the dreamworld towers.  <br /><br />However, if Perrin or Egwene enters the tower in Dreamworld, that spells bad news for them.  Birgitte was very clear when she pointed out that the tower is almost impossible to exit from dreamworld.  I think that Perrin will get trapped inside the tower himself.<br /><br />Now, I don't have much evidence for this, but my one interpretation is this:  Recall the cover of PoD?<br /><br />it says something to the extent of &quot; Faile having to pay with her life, and Perrin destroying his soul to save her.&quot;<br /><br />My interpretation of this, although it is completely hypothetical, is that Perrin losing his soul is akin to Perrin getting trapped in the tower.<br /><br />If Perrin was trapped in the tower in dreamworld, then in the physical world it really would appear as if Perrin was 'soul-less.'  Berelain even commented about this in WH, when she said something about how Perrin's vital signs were very low while he was out in the cold in the wolf-dream looking for a trace of Faile.   <br />Of course, Perrin would have his own adventures inside the tower, but ultimately Mat and Thom would come to save Perrin.<br /><br />One question I have been pondering is why Mat would enter the tower in the first place:  Mat hates these things and would only enter at great need.<br /><br />What I presume is that Mat will be faced with a great, great decision- possibly relating to weighing the 2 Aes Sedai on the balance scale.  Now, I don't know who these Aes Sedai are, but they will somehow trouble Mat deeply enough that he will force himself to enter the tower to seek the 'Finns advice.  Of course, the price Mat will pay will be one of his eyes.  I think Mat might also gain another ability, such as the ability to read the future.<br /><br />Next question:  Why would Thom be spurred to enter??<br /><br />I think Thom will know something of this tower from the letter that Moiraine wrote him.  Thom may even be the one who tells Mat of this tower in the 1st place.  Based on events in the letter, Thom will know when the time is right to enter the tower.  <br /><br />What about Olver??<br /><br />Olver, due to his fascination with snakes and foxes might also come along- especially if he is really Gaidal Cain, cause the tower is perfect hero material.  However, I have no idea why Mat would let Olver come along in the 1st place.<br /><br />How is the tower entered?<br /><br />This is a big unresolved question.  Perrin has the advantage of knowing about Slayer and may even get to observe Slayer's trick of entering.  But Mat has no way of knowing.  I don't really propose anyone, but Mat is going to have to learn sometime.  <br /><br />Someone posted a very interesting post about crossroads in the celtic tradition.  It held several clues to as how the tower could be entered.  In this post it was said that crossroads included many landscape features such as where sea and land met, or where the sky and the highest part of earth met.  In these crossroads, towers or monuments were often built.  The post also mentioned something about the way of entering these towers was by circling the tower (can't remember how many times, or whether it was clockwise or counter-clockwise).  <br /><br />I think this post about the celtic tradition and crossroads may be very relevant to the tower of ghengei and also to the title, &quot;Crossroads of Twilight.&quot;  <br /><br />I think it will be Very, very interesting to see this thread resolved.<br /><br />However, I would like to make one major point here:  I do not think anyone, except for possibly Thom, will be entering the tower with the intention of finding Moiraine.  For all they know, Moiraine is dead.  Each character will have their own motivations for entering the tower, it they will not be based on rescuing Moiraine.  <br /><br />My last point is that if all these characters come together, what will prevent evil characters from also being involved??<br />Slayer might be involved, and all the Forsaken who are Dreamwalkers are candidates.  Could a battle result from this Tower event? I am just speculating, but I wanted to feed the blackboard discussion.<br /><br />Once again, excellent theory Three in a Boat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 01:06:56
subject: <b>Moiraine, Moiraine, wherefor art thou Moiraine?</b>
body:
I like it. Good research, especially on the Egwene part (I think you deserve a reward for getting something no one else surely thought of). I have been thinking along much the same lines with Thom and Mat, myself, but not too sure of their bit parts. I don't know how Perrin could really rescue Moiraine, though, in the next book because he is a little caught up in his quest for the falcon. Also, Egwene is sitting pretty on Elaida's doorstep at the moment. Otherwise, it fits pretty well with the current story. Those little things are going to bother me greatly, now. I must admit a certain tingle thinking of Moiraine coming back; it may be the one thing I am really looking forward to in the coming books. Good job.


created: 2002-03-27 01:20:53
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
This is barely related at all to the theory, except for one little part.  The little wound with a hat covering it part.  Maybe the wound she is unable to see is Mat's loss of an eye that everyone seems to think will come to pass.  Yeah, and Aan-whatever, wherefor does not mean where a person is at, it means why are they that person.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 01:51:48
subject: <b>3 times</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, the Celtic tradition post said that you had to circle the tower 3 times.  In regard to this possibility I noticed a neat little fact in TSR.  When Perrin chases Slayer to the Tower of Ghenjei, Perrin circles the Tower twice and that's when Hopper appears yelling at him to stop.  Is Hopper just trying to stop him from chasing Slayer or to stop him from entering the Tower by circling a 3rd time?


created: 2002-03-27 02:31:29
subject: <b>Pretty good</b>
body:
When you got me thinking, the one I thought of instead of Egwene (who's awfully busy with other things), is Aviendha. Why? Well, mostly because she's a fire freak and she doesn't have anything better to do. Every notice our pretty little redhead is a pyro?<br /><br />Or, Mat being the trickster he is, it could something from the Illuminators that the Finn won't recognize.  &quot;Nope, no sir, Mr. Snake/Fox; I didn't bring no fire...&quot;  That's when he pulls out those little harmless paper products filled with a funny dark powder....


created: 2002-03-27 02:52:16
subject: <b>One additional point about the tower in dreamworld</b>
body:
I mentioned earlier that Perrin will get trapped because the tower is almost impossible to escape from dreamworld.  But that begs a certain question:  Well, then How does Slayer get out of the tower in dreamworld??<br /><br />I think the answer is pretty simple.  Slayer has the ability to make gateways in and out of tel'aran'rhiod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 03:28:41
subject: <b>re</b>
body:
I think that either Slayer didn't go to that tower or he had somekind of deal with Finns. For example he could produce most human skins that foxes are using as clothes and so have somekind &quot;key&quot; to that tower.<br /><br />However I think that he only tried to trick Perrin of going into that tower and so trap him inside without chance of escape. So I suspect that he only leaved TAR, or returned to real world and not went inside.


created: 2002-03-27 09:42:03
subject: <b>Nice theory!</b>
body:
I must, though, say that I think you are stretching the evidence a little in including Perrin and Egwene.  I, too, noticed the title of the chapter.  I personally feel that it was a play on words meant to encompass both sections of the chapter differently.  As far as to why RJ had Perrin follow Slayer to the Tower of Genjei.  There are a number of strong reasons.  It introduced  Birgitte and explained a little more about the Finn's.  Maybe, just as importantly, it set up a way for Lanfear to be rescued from the Finns in time to kill Asmodean!  No extra reason is needed.<br /><br />I agree strongly with your reasons for including Mat with Thom.  The use of the conjunction &quot;while&quot; is very suggestive.  What better place for Mat to trade his eye to save the world than in the land of the Finn.  (Plus it fits the mythology of Odin, although maybe too well.).  An interesting note, is that if Mat does give up half the light of the world in the land of the Finn 2 of the three predictions of the snakes would have happened there.  What are the chances of Mat getting married there as well <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br />Another point that I have mentioned previously and will again is that I feel the best way for Mat and company to enter the land of the Finn's is not through the Tower of Genjei but another gateway.  If Mat found another gateway he would more than likely go through it, especially if he found out there is a way to cheat.  (Mat hates the snakes and foxes and wants revenge.)  Maybe Mat will escape through the tower of Genjei.<br /><br />Another possible way that the tower of Genjei entered the story is through Mat's memories.  Mat's memories mostly come from Manetheren and Aldeshar.  If memory serves me correctly both countries would have had the tower of Genjei at their borders.  That would explain where the foxes got the memories the stuffed in Mat's head.  The stole or bought them from people who entered the tower of Genjei.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 10:30:24
subject: <b>Fire to Blind</b>
body:
Great theory, Three. I just wanted to comment on a few twists I found interesting. I just wanted to suggest what the role of each person may be.<br /><br />In order, Thom would be the first in (Music to dazzle)if the ryme is strictly followed, which may not be the case. But it seems to me Thoms role is to distract the Finns.<br /><br />If Perrin is the Iron, which I would agree with, then his role will be to bind. Any clues how this could happen? Perhaps with a large pack of wolves, he could keep the Finns at bay? I can't think of any hints as to how he may accomplish his role.<br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen&quot; - may just be strength in numbers, especially when Egwene is strong in the power.<br /><br />Regarding the &quot;Fire to Blind&quot; where fire represents Mat, according to your theory. I just think it is ironic that Mat is suppose to blind the Finns, allowing Thom to rescue Moiraine, when Mat himself will loose an eye. Or is there some way Mat loosing an eye could symbolize him blinding the Finns? I can't see how, but the dreams are based mostly on symbolism. At any rate, this is just dripping with irony.<br /><br />Maybe he blinds them with the fire sticks, but he needs to make a bargain with them to escape the tower. They say &quot;Sacrifice your eye in return for your freedom.&quot; He says &quot;Flaming bloody women, Aes Seadai. Here, have the eye.&quot; Remember, he is very galiant when fighting the gholam in Ebu Dar.<br /><br />Anyway, great theory. This is one story line I would like to see resolved in this next book.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 12:08:10
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I guess this  could be it, but I Don't think that Mat will be involved. Why? WHY? Well, there are the snakes, and the Foxes and each have a doorway. There will NOT be a third doorway since there is no other side than the two mentioned, and the two doorways led to very different places inside the tower. That leaves us with entering via the tower itself. <br /><br />#1, there is no enterance. Domon made that CLEAR. <br /><br />#2, apparantley the only way to enter is through T'A'R.<br /><br />#3, I always thought that Thom fit all of them. Fire in his act, Iron is his knives (well, steel, but hey. Wadda ya gonna do?) Music is SO him, and Courage oozes out of the guy (taking on a Fade with KNIVES?)<br /><br />This was an... interesting theory, though. Especially about Perrin and the Iron. I just don't see him dropping the search for Faile to do this, though. I don't think he sleeps much now anyway, but it is a possibility.<br /><br />The most likley people, though(according to the rhyme), Are Mat (Fire) Perrin (Iron) Rand (Courage) and Thom (Music) and that COULD be the reason for the swirling colors (Get back together). Also, through Rand, this gives the Non-Dreamers a chance to get into T'A'R. Otherwise, how would Thom and the others get there?<br /><br /><br />Oh, and Vashti, where is Aviendha a pyro? I don't seem to remember that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 12:34:47
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
The Courage to strengthen was Mat's as well... i mean, if he does make a deal with the Finns for his eye, let's say, that's gotta take a hell of a lot of courage...<br /><br />It's a good theory, and I was very interested reading it. I like your play on words with Egwene, and I like how you tied Mat and Thom together<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 13:03:44
subject: <b>Don't forget Oliver</b>
body:
Sorry, I'm at work (yea, doing quite a bit of work as you can see) so I don't have my books handy.  But I remember that when Mat and Oliver were playing snakes and foxes, Mat felt sorry for him because there was no way to win but to cheat.  I'm guessing that at the crucial moment, Oliver will figure out that he has to 'cheat' and this little venture will suceed (He is after all Gadial Cain)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 13:38:31
subject: <b>But They Have to &quot;Cheat&quot;</b>
body:
Great theory, on the whole.  There's just one extra bit that needs to be added: they have to &quot;cheat&quot;.  You've alluded to the importance of it, but as I see it it's vital because of the process of getting to the Finns:<br /><br />1.  You have to get into their world.  This can be through a doorway, TAR, or by walking around the tower three times in the real world for all we know.<br /><br />2.  You are greeted by a representative of the Finn.  He asks, &quot;You remember the covenants, yes?&quot; and asks if you have any musical instruments, fire or iron with you.  YOU HAVE TO SAY NO.  You also probably have to be telling the truth.  The Finns aren't stupid.<br /><br />3.  The representative is the only one who can properly guide you through the paths.  Otherwise, you'll get lost in the many hallways before coming to the chamber where your wishes are granted or questions answered.<br /><br />4.  It's when you get to the &quot;audience chamber&quot; that you have to &quot;cheat&quot;.  How can this be done?  Well, we all know that fireworks create &quot;fire to blind&quot; without you having to lie when you're asked if you have any fire.  Thom could probably just sing, or use a non-instrument as a makeshift instrument, without having to lie about the musical instrument question.  As for iron, I'm not sure.  An earlier comment said &quot;Perrin is the iron&quot; and &quot;Egwene is the courage&quot; but the Finn don't ask if you're afraid so I think the courage is just a reference to having the balls to attack the Finn in their home.  What, then, is the iron? I think that the fire blinds them and before they can recover, the music will put them in a charmed state which allows them to be restrained using iron.  Once they're trapped like this, they'll have to form a new &quot;bargain&quot; that would involve freeing Moiraine.<br /><br />Does it make sense?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 13:45:00
subject: <b>how the non dreamers can get into the tower</b>
body:
mats medallion, ive siad it before but no one ever remebers<br />i think mats medallioin can be a &quot;key&quot; to the tower, maybye there is a snake &quot;key&quot; also, that hasent been found yet, BUT i dont think the snakes have anything to do with it, <br /><br />the world were as different as they were similar, so they could be connected but i dont think so<br /><br />moraine fell into the foxes world, matt wants to get back at the foxes, matt has the fox terangreal, if it IS one we dont know that, elyne hasent even looked at it,<br /><br />also mabye the key to killing the gohlam is in the tower, matts medalion hurts him, so mybe other finn work will<br /><br />i love the theory though, very well donr tying egwene into it, even if the rest were obviously it is very jordan-esque, to do that he really is a foreshadowing master<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 16:34:32
subject: <b>Great Theory, Three in a Boat!</b>
body:
I've always thought of Perrin when I think about the &quot;Iron to bind,&quot; and his conection to Slayer and TAR would help him get to the Tower.<br />As for Egwene... I'm not so sure. The &quot;chapter-title-refers-to-her&quot; thing is a bit of a stretch. Although, she could be the one that bring Perrin and his iron from TAR to the waking world at the right time to &quot;cheat&quot; without lying. Voice of Lews Therin is probably right about the 'finns being able to tell if you lie to them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 16:57:34
subject: <b>random thoughts...</b>
body:
What's the tower of Ghengi made out of anyways?  Maybe it's made out of a form of iron, and binds the snakes and foxes to it in some way.  Birgitte said in the tower lies the way to their realm, but she didn't say it was their realm.  So maybe the tower has some way to go to their realm without constraint.  With the gateways, a person can only go once.  The tower was made to limit the interaction between humans and the snakes and foxes.<br /><br />And the rhyme-maybe the spirit of the rhyme, and not the actual details, are what's important.  You need strength, an ablility to dazzle and blind, and something to bind the snakes and foxes.  So you need to create a distraction so the snakes and foxes don't pay attention to you, and strength to bind them.  Once they're bound, they can be your slave, and grant you requests and answer any question.  (Like a genie--when you rub the bottle, you get three wishes, and once you wish, the genie goes back into the bottle.  Unless you can find a way to bind the genie to you...)  Add to this Egwene's dream-Matt's dicing while Thom's saving Moiraine: Matt's providing the distractions while Thom goes to find Moiraine.  (Maybe Matt and co. don't bind the snakes and foxes; just use them.)  <br /><br />As to Matt giving up half the light in the world to save the world--I think this is literal, and not some kind of symbolism.  But, I think Matt's thinking of it wrong.  It's not half the light (like sunshine and brightness), but half the Light (like Light vs. Dark).  Since Matt's a great general, maybe he has to make a decision at the last battle to sacrifice half of the Light (half of the people that follow the light) in order to win the battle and save the world.  (Just one of my bizare thought that come up when I've studied for too long.)


created: 2002-03-27 19:35:10
subject: <b>Wasted effort?</b>
body:
Nice to see Three in the boat has arrived at almost a theory.  Sorry but I don't agree with you!  An army will not be required to save Moraine.  Only one is equal to the task. Thom. Maybe just maybe Mat will play a part.  Nice try Three in an overturned boat....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 19:47:23
subject: <b>Comments anybody?</b>
body:
Waiting patiently........<br /><br />lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 20:54:06
subject: <b>Aviendha the Pryo</b>
body:
I'm partly being facetious, of course, but if you note, the red-head definitely likes to use fire in moments of crisis.  She's a warrior, after all, and so she uses that which is a weapon.  This may also be part of her strength, since women typically aren't strong in earth and fire.<br /><br />1. She blasts a fireball during her Wise Woman training in the Waste that just makes Mat more worried.<br />2. Right after Rand balefires a Draghkar, she sends out a torrent of fire to fry one moving in on him.<br />3. (little shaky on this one) I thought after their little igloo tryst in the lands of the Seanchan, she sent fire.<br />4. When Elayne was trying to unravel the portal, she kept up a non-stop stream of fireballs. <br />5. She and Egwene used a lot of Fire (and Lightning -- but I wouldn't be surprised if one preferred a particular type) in the assault on Cairhien.<br /><br />All other female channelers tend to prefer Air or Air-based powers (lightning).  She likes fire -- and lots of it. If I recall, she tends to use fire euphimisms a lot, too, just in normal speach.  Some of it is simple stuff (with Min, talking about the heavy booze that burns, while Elayne was getting it on with Rand).  <br /><br />Anyways, her role in this is pure speculation on my part. Just brain-storming.  As I also said, she's a major character who doesn't have a thing to do now (for awhile).


created: 2002-03-28 04:58:10
subject: <b>A question about this theory.</b>
body:
How would Perrin or Egwene going to the Tower of Jenji from TAR get them any closer to resucing Moiraine ? Moiraine's not a Dreamer, so it's unlikey that even if they were in the Tower, they'd come across her.<br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 12:34:04
subject: <b>Vashti PLEASE!</b>
body:
Your not brainstorming here.  What your doing is trying to hit the lottery.  Aviendha used fire on a few occasions WOW! I overwhelmed. Vashti, I think Master Gill will be the one to save Moraine.  If I recall he's always been able to build a nice fire in his inn.<br />Sorry to Three in a boat.  You've had some good stuff in the past.  I was upset after reading this because it was obvious that you hadn't put any thought into it.  Sorry for being hard on you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 12:43:55
subject: <b>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!</b>
body:
Holy Crap! Columbo cracks another case! You've got the right of it here, my friend <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wow. What an entrance! (Is this the first time you've been here? Haven't seen you before.)<br /><br />ROTFLMAO!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 19:36:57
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Thank you for putting so much thought and effort yourself into explaining why you don't agree with my theory Columbo, much appreciated &lt;rolls eyes&gt;<br /><br />Though to tell you the truth, you're right, I didn't put much effort into it, it came to me naturally, as all things do when it comes to the WoT.<br /><br />You say an army won't be needed to rescue her, which is just as well as I don't have one. I have 4 people. I don't know if they'll all go, my theory certainly isn't full proof, but hopefully it's original and will spark some (constructive) debate.<br /><br />Thanks to everyone else who complimented my theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As to how Perrin and Egwene would be able to rescue Moiraine, how do you know that their is a TAR equivalent to the Finns home? Clearly it is a completely seperate place to the world Rand et al live in, entering it through either the waking world or TAR may well not take you to another place.<br /><br />While there are certain possible reasons for explaining away RJ introducing the Tower in TAR to us, I just think there's something more. He could have simply introduced Birgitte by having her warn him not to chase Slayer. Lanfear's story (if it did happen through TAR which I don't think happened) could be explained other ways. Perhaps it's just a feeling, but specifically having Slayer escaping through it leads me to believe that either Perrin or Egwene or both will enter at some point and I can't believe Jordan would do that without including Moiraine.


created: 2002-03-28 20:00:09
subject: <b>Original?</b>
body:
I don't think so three in a boat.  It seems to me that you've borrowed from previous theories only to add Perrin and Egwene and then put your name on it.  Things just come naturally to you don't they.<br />I've said Thom with maybe some assistance from Mat,  Why?  I'll tell you briefly.  Thom has everything required for the job.  Mat has some experience to share as he has hade dealings with the Finns.  Will Mat physically help Thom?  No.  Mat has enough to worry about and has already had one to many dealings with the Finns.  <br />I know, lets put everything on hold and everyone in the series can call a time out to go rescue someone who is presumed dead. <br /><br />Nice try Three in boat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 20:20:19
subject: <b>The Ability to Type Doesn't Necessitate Intelligence.</b>
body:
Talking about trying to hit the lottery...Columbo is apparently desperately seeking material for his next Cub Scout talent show, stand-up comedy category.<br /><br />Well, for those lacking electrical activity in the brain, there's a bit more to it.  I'll type slowly so you can mouth the words as you go.  Regrettably, I don't have any pictures to add, so it's highly unlikely you'll understand, but that was to be assumed regardless.<br /><br />Aviendha has used Fire as a weapon more than all other female channelers combined, if I remember correctly. And if it's not precisely correct, it's close enough to make little difference. <br /><br />Hmm...in an exercise in trying to guess whom and what the riddle is referring to, a reasonable effort is to find people with distinguishing similarities to the mentioned traits/signs.  Aviendha's channelling it defined by Fire...hmmm...anyone else defined by fire?  Dang it, I can't think of a single one.  I'm sure our budding Henny Youngman, Jr. could, but he doesn't like to display his brilliance, he only likes to mock.<br /><br />Now then, let's see...some type of expedition would require, well, PEOPLE to go on it (gee, ya think?).  Since it's obviously going to be a major undertaking, I'm making the daring cognitive leap of suggesting that, oh, I don't know...major characters will participate.  Whoops, I'm sure I've lost the mouth-breathers among us. Oh well.<br /><br />Given that, one must look at who is availible.  Rand? Comatose and sorta concerned with fending off Forsaken and other miracles.  Perrin?  Noted, but a bit busy right now freaking out over his lost wife, and playing checkers every night with Masema.  Mat?  Getting ready to deflower Artur Hawkwing's descendant, and delaying a definite need to get back to Talmanes (poor trade-off from Tuon, if you ask me, but go figure).  Min?  Tied to Rand, totally, moreso now that he's knocked out.  Nynaeve? same as Rand, which also removes Lan.  Moiraine? Oops, target of the search.  Elayne? Getting ready for the mother of all tea parties for four armies, and spending mornings filling up her chamber pot with the gift of twins.  Birgitte? Tied to Elayne.  Juilian?  Nibbling on the neck of a pet Aes Sedai.  Aram?  With Perrin.  Cadsuane?  Busy giving Rand attitude, and about to have her hands full with all kinds of wavemistress'-in-training, and uppity Aiel.  Verin?  Surrounded by Wise Women, most likely ecstatic that Moiraine is not around to unravel her plots.  Suian?  Can't leave Byrne.  Logain?  Marshalling forces and factions against Taim.  Egwene? Got her hands full leading a trifling rebellion against Elaida and the White Tower.<br /><br />That leaves...(counting on my fingers to help out the synaptically-impaired)..one...two...TWO! Two main characters who aren't much accounted for!<br /><br />Thom, who we all know must go, given the prophetic dreams...<br /><br />and AVIENDHA, who also happens to be Courageous, has a defining affinity with Fire, and a well-trained warrior even without weapons.  Oh, and a channeler, and likely to have the ability to enter TAR through one of Elayne's little toys (or ring).  And who has completely nothing to do in the foreseeable future. <br /><br />Oops,  I probably used two many non-monosyllabic words. <br /><br />Y'know, if all you want to do is mock and provoke, there are plenty of other websights like &quot;RancidRULZ!&quot; or &quot;UrbanBoyz&quot; or &quot;Luv4Britney&quot; where you can join all your other pubescent wannabees.  Somewhere, some village is missing its idiot.


created: 2002-03-28 20:23:37
subject: <b>*Inhales Sharply*</b>
body:
I don't know TiaB. Looks like Columbo has caught you with your hand in the cookie jar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I jjust... I don't see how They will all break away from their own individual searches to come together and rescue Moiraine, who is presumably dead. Actually, she is dead now. No question about it. If you want to know why, just ask <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Simon (I think) had the best comment on this theory, though. If Perrin/Egwene go into the Tower in TAR/Wolfdream, why would you just assume that it would be the same as our non-dreaming friends' encounter with the real Tower? TAR is a reflectin and would therefore have nothing to do with Moiraine's rescue. If it DID, then we have to discard the realworlders. We cant have both at the same time.<br /><br />To Columbo: Have you taken an intrest in Thom? If so, mabye you can help me with a theory that I'm putting together on Thom. Noteboard me if you want, cool?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 20:26:34
subject: <b>Hey Vashti,</b>
body:
When (No, that's not the right way to say it.) <br /><br />WHEN DID AVIENDHA EVER HAVE A RUN IN WITH THE FINNS? She was present at the Lanfear incident, but in no way went through the door. Jeez, have you ever read the books? LOL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 20:36:52
subject: <b>Vashti lucky</b>
body:
Green Gaiden got a crack at the unfortunate error of yours.  I wouldn't have been as kind as Green gaiden.  <br /><br />Green Gaiden yes I'll help if I can with Thom.  It seems to me that everyone has passed him by maybe because he holds himself out as a gleeman.  Hey wait he is a gleeman.  I've always thought of him as much more.  Thom is an enigma.  <br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 20:37:04
subject: <b>Rhuidean?</b>
body:
Y'know, that gateway?  Quite likely the gateway that all other Wise Women (and perhaps Clan Chiefs go through?)<br /><br />The Gateway where Moiraine went for info, and Rand? And likely Mat?<br /><br />The place where she learned about her inevitable relationship with Rand, that made her in such a pissy mood? <br /><br />We ARE talking the same Robert Jordan, right?<br /><br />There's something called 'reading between the lines', where one takes that which is implied and not necessarily what is set out in type.  After all, we know Moiraine went through some gates/rings, even though we weren't in her direct PoV.


created: 2002-03-28 20:51:03
subject: <b>OK, Night Night Vashti.</b>
body:
OK, I'll outline this for you in a few simple steps. You won't have to read between the lines for this one. Okay?<br /><br />#1: The doorway was not the same device that the Wise Women use. Okay? Proof? Why, of course. You cannot go through the doorways twice as evindenced by Mat in Tear (He falls through the doorway when trying to go through a second time.)<br /><br />#2: If #1 is true (See above), which it most OBVIOUSLY is, then Moiraine could not have gone through the doorway a second time when she fought Lanfear. Okay?<br /><br />#3: The Wise One's testing device is somewhat similar to the Aes Sedai's for Accepted testing, if I'm not mistaken. Werent there three rings? <br /><br />#4: Rand did NOT go through the Rhiudean doorway. He went through the glass pillars. Is it all starting to come back now? Yeah! I knew it would be. That was when he seen Couladin's brother tearing his face off and the history of the Aiel was revealed to Rand.<br /><br />#5: There is no LIKLEY when the scene is described vividly in the book. The fact that you said that Mat 'Likley' went through the second doorway proves that you don't know WoT from a hole in the ground. <br /><br />I'll ask you again: HAVE YOU READ THE BOOKS? If not, or you're unsure of your knowledge on the subject, go to bed and start reading them in the morning. That way the Adults can talk. Okay?<br /><br />Goodnight. You, my friend, just got Red-Balled. (Pulp fiction style) Owwwwwwwwwwww. Owwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuch. LMAO.<br /><br />(Embarassed yet? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 21:02:20
subject: <b>Who Let the Infants Out?</b>
body:
Gawdawlmighty.  Doorways, Portals, Rings, whatever the heck you want.  <br /><br />Thank you for proving my point. Like the Accepted go through.  Does it matter HOW one goes through? Don't you understand the inter-connectedness of everything in Jordan's world?  Something/Someone(s) told Aviendha some things, and she has acted on it.  Maybe you don't make connections between disparate events.  If you don't, then you're missing half (or more) of what goes on in this series. <br /><br />And Yes, to reply to your juvenile baiting, I have read the books -- several times.  Have I read Mat's particular passage lately?  Nope.  And I HAVE read something here that raised an interesting point, so I chose to qualify my words, instead of talking from between my buttcheeks, as seems like such a determined past-time for so many *ahem*. <br /><br />My embarrasement in this only comes from sharing a board with someone who feels someone else should be embarrassed, but can't even spell the word correctly. (gotta love irony!)


created: 2002-03-28 23:55:25
subject: <b>I Think that somebody is EXTREMLEY mixed up.</b>
body:
If you're embarRassed, just say so and I'll let up. No need to be uneasy about it; some people just can't deal with the pressure I put on them. Just say so in the future, ok <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now, what you said doesn't lie, so if you want to point the finger, let's start with you. <br /><br />Since what you said cannot be changed, let's go back to it. To make it easy for a fourth grader to follow, I'll use your own quotes.<br /><br />&quot;Aviendha's channelling it defined by Fire...hmmm...anyone else defined by fire? Dang it, I can't think of a single one.&quot;  Well, actually, you're the first one that I've EVER heard point that out, but as Columbo said above, Master Gill DOES make good fires in his Inn... Seriously though, I don't remember Avi using Fire any more than any other Female. Oh, and no other character is defined as using Fire? What about Mat? Unless you have a rebuttal for him inventing gunpowder (reaching up into the skyand grabbing a firework, and Egwene saying that men would die because of it). Actually, I would like to hear what you think that dream means if not the gunpowder. At any rate, Avi has CERTIANLY never crossed my mind as Fire based.<br /><br />&quot;Since it's obviously going to be a major undertaking...&quot; Uhhhh..... who said it was going to be? Why do you need an army? Besides, if you could, how did you say it? Read between the lines, then you would know that even if 100 people went into the doorway at once, they would not see each other. Rand Mat and Moiraine didn't see each other in TEAR, so that's an obvious one. Even YOU would have picked that one up, I thought. Oh well, I guess you're just not as smart as I took you for. Go figure.<br /><br />&quot;Given that, one must look at who is availible. Rand? Comatose and sorta concerned with fending off Forsaken and other miracles. Perrin? Noted, but a bit busy right now freaking out over his lost wife, and playing checkers every night with Masema. Mat? Getting ready to deflower Artur Hawkwing's descendant, and delaying a definite need to get back to Talmanes (poor trade-off from Tuon, if you ask me, but go figure). Min? Tied to Rand, totally, moreso now that he's knocked out. Nynaeve? same as Rand, which also removes Lan. Moiraine? Oops, target of the search. Elayne? Getting ready for the mother of all tea parties for four armies, and spending mornings filling up her chamber pot with the gift of twins. Birgitte? Tied to Elayne. Juilian? Nibbling on the neck of a pet Aes Sedai. Aram? With Perrin. Cadsuane? Busy giving Rand attitude, and about to have her hands full with all kinds of wavemistress'-in-training, and uppity Aiel. Verin? Surrounded by Wise Women, most likely ecstatic that Moiraine is not around to unravel her plots. Suian? Can't leave Byrne. Logain? Marshalling forces and factions against Taim. Egwene? Got her hands full leading a trifling rebellion against Elaida and the White Tower.&quot; Wow. Wow. You actually know the Characters' names! Congrats! Now, Considering Thom was about a meter away from Mat at the end of WH, I guess... yeah, that COULD bring Mat in. Hmmm... Perrin? Well, he's the closest physically to the Tower whereas Thom is a considerable distance and not headed in that direction. Strange. Logain? Were you just reaching here? No, never mind. I don't want to put the red ball in your mouth AGAIN, do I? Besides, If Avi is in Andor with Elayne, WHY WOULD SHE GO TO THE TOWER OF GENJI, AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE? She met Moiraine for a couple of months, and didn't hardly talk to her at all. You've got some homework to do, because grasping at straws isn't working for you.<br /><br />&quot;...and AVIENDHA, who also happens to be Courageous, has a defining affinity with Fire, and a well-trained warrior even without weapons. Oh, and a channeler, and likely to have the ability to enter TAR through one of Elayne's little toys (or ring). And who has completely nothing to do in the foreseeable future. &quot; Can you tell me again why the rescue will be through TAR? I must have missed that one. Oh, and Thom has all of those things, and he actually has ties to Moiraine.<br /><br />&quot;Y'know, that gateway? Quite likely the gateway that all other Wise Women (and perhaps Clan Chiefs go through?)&quot; No, I don't know. Since they go through DIFFERENT tests with none of the same equiptment, I think that mabye you're wrng here. Wadda ya say?<br /><br />&quot;The Gateway where Moiraine went for info, and Rand? And likely Mat?&quot; Once again, I don't follow you. That gateway was in TEAR. That's T-E-A-R. And what's thins about 'likley Mat?' Uhhh..... he's how we know about the Finns.<br /><br />&quot;The place where she learned about her inevitable relationship with Rand, that made her in such a pissy mood?&quot; Yeah, I know what you mean, but it has NOTHING to do with Moiraine or the Finns. Next.<br /><br />&quot;We ARE talking the same Robert Jordan, right?&quot; Apparently not. I'm talking about THE WHEEL OF TIME. The first book is called The Eye of the World. Try it; you might like it.<br /><br />&quot;Doorways, Portals, Rings, whatever the heck you want.&quot; They're... quite different. <br /><br />&quot;Thank you for proving my point.&quot; ???????? What point?<br /><br />&quot;Does it matter HOW one goes through? Don't you understand the inter-connectedness of everything in Jordan's world? Something/Someone(s) told Aviendha some things, and she has acted on it. Maybe you don't make connections between disparate events. If you don't, then you're missing half (or more) of what goes on in this series.&quot; What are you talking about here? It seems like gibberish to me. Does it matter HOW one goes through? When they're not even close to being the same thing? I... THINK... so. I would like your interconnected theory, please. You know, the one on how the Finn are connected to the Three Rings test. Are you saying that Avi seen something of Moiraine in her future? If so, then how do you explain her knowing about her love for Rand? There is only ONE ring for the Future, and it dealt with Rand, not Moiraine.<br /><br />&quot;I have read the books -- several times.&quot; Try doing it again. <br /><br />For my next trick, I would like to put two of your quotes together to show your IQ level. &quot;My embarrasement in this only comes from sharing a board with someone who feels someone else should be embarrassed, but can't even spell the word correctly.&quot; &quot;Gawdawlmighty.&quot;  No comment. &quot;(gotta love irony!)&quot; I sure do... I sure do.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 01:44:34
subject: <b>Vashti has</b>
body:
been balefired.  That means he cannot be brought back to respond to Green Gaidon.  Green Gaidon has used balefire on Vashti.<br />I got involved recently because things here have been deteriating.  The last year I've enjoyed just reading theories and comments. Lately theories and comments have been terrible. Thanks Green Gaidon and Vashti for bringing some life back to this site.  I look forward to more well thought out debates.<br /><br />Vashti PLEASE don't dig yourself further in a hole than you have already.  <br /><br />Green Gaidon hats off to you.  Great work!  You've sold me and provided some added insight.<br /><br />Three in a boat you continue to disapoint.  You post a theory and then don't stand beside it? What have you to say?  Do you even care?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 11:39:56
subject: <b>Rhuidean</b>
body:
Without goinf back and re-reading FoH before posting, I thought I'd mention a thing or two. Wise women (used to) go to Rhuidean twice, while clan chiefs only went once. They go through the same three ringed angreal that the clan chies go through, which was constructed by Aes Sedai to teach the Aiel their history. I can't remember anywhere were it says what that do when they go for the second time. Or perhaps they go through that particular angreal the second time and do something else the first time.<br /><br />Thom is definately &quot;DA MAN&quot;, and anyone who thinks he is just a gleeman is gravely mistaken, as Mat found out in TDR. There is absolutly no doubtin my mind that he will rescue Moraine. And he also fits every part of that ryme.<br /><br />There is no doubt, either, that Mat and Perrin are connected to the Finns and the tower.<br /><br />Other than that, this is a theory. A theory is just speculation. I thought Three brought up some interesting points, I had not considered. Is he right? Hell, I don't know. Colombu and Green have also brought up some very interesting points. Are you right? Hell, I don't know. I don't really agree with Vashti and Avi, but he certainly can post comments like every one else. I've seen dumber comments posted. I like to come here to read other people theories and ideas, whether I thnk they are right or not.<br /><br />Can't we all just get along. Its RJ's fault for taking so long on his next book! Damn Him! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace, out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 15:13:49
subject: <b>Randwashere</b>
body:
Correct this is not a place for squabling.  Vashti hats of to you as you had me LMAO with your response to my comment above.  In particular the part about the cub scouts.  No hard feelings I hope.  Thanks Green Gaiden for proving the point I was trying to make.<br /><br />What if Moraine is already free?  Lanfear has returned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 16:13:21
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
&quot;I don't think so three in a boat. It seems to me that you've borrowed from previous theories only to add Perrin and Egwene and then put your name on it.&quot;<br /><br />No no, you're right, I should have ignored previous theories. I shouldn't have put in Mat and Thom, they've been suggested before, I should have ignored things even if I believe in them. Clearly a theory is only original if every single element of it has not been brought up before.<br /><br />&quot;Three in a boat you continue to disapoint. You post a theory and then don't stand beside it? What have you to say? Do you even care?&quot;<br /><br />Sigh, I can't tell if you're trying to annoy me with your ignorance/stupidity or if it's accidental. If it's the first one it's INCREDIBLY sad, but there are the likes on the net. If it's the second one, well it can't be helped. I do my best to come to the site everyday and usually manage to. If I have nothing to do and get bored, I'll come more often. Everyone else seems to have the patience to wait for replies, hopefully you will find some. Though given the fact that you posted a message saying &quot;Comments anybody? Waiting patiently........lol (clearly a lie)&quot; 12 MINUTES afterafter you had posted, I don't expect you will.<br /><br />&quot;Things just come naturally to you don't they.&quot;<br /><br />Now we're understanding each other!<br /><br />&quot;I don't see how They will all break away from their own individual searches to come together and rescue Moiraine&quot;<br /><br />I have explained this. I have not said Egwene and Perrin will go with the intention of rescuing Moiraine. In fact I've said they might go for another reason entirely, but end up helping in some way, even if they never realise they have (as passing on information in the WoT world doesn't seem the thing to do).


created: 2002-03-29 18:36:36
subject: <b>A few more points</b>
body:
I wanted to address a few things here and reiterate what I said in my first post.<br /><br />Thank you Columbo and G.G. for providing more needed comic relief.  <br /><br />Why are these people needed to save Moiraine??<br /><br />The answer:  they arent'.  I think some people are missing the point in that the Tower of Ghenjei encompasses something much more than Moiraine.  Something huge could escalate in Finnland, and Moiraine is just one by-product of what will happen.<br /><br />Here are view possible things that could happen:<br /><br />Perrin, Slayer showdown, and possibly something to do with Faile (as in TDR where he entered the wolfdream to save her)<br /><br />Mat- being forced to go into the tower for answers, and having a showdown with the Finn<br /><br />Thom- looking for Moiraine<br /><br />Olver- following Mat inside and meeting some of his destiny as being a hero reborn(if he really is a hero)<br /><br /><br />I have no idea why Egwene would want to be involved, however.<br />So you see each character could have their own motive.  Jordan is quite adept at bringing all the characters back together, especially when they all have different reasons.<br />Just look at everyone converging on the stone in Tear.<br /><br />To reiterate my point again:  the tower is not just about Moiraine.  Everyone thinks Moiriane is dead, except perhaps Thom.  <br /><br />Someone huge could escalate there, something that we really can't predict, but that has a need of at least 2 ta'veren and several other important characters.  <br /><br />Of course, this is speculation- but Perrin and Mat are very logical choices to enter the Tower.  And as we have seen, there are many connections between CoT and the Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 19:29:45
subject: <b>*Bows to MC*</b>
body:
The thing is, though, WHY would eberybody converge on the Tower? At least in Tear they all had reasons for being there, but as far as I know, the only reason for ANYBODY to be there is for Perrin in the WD. If I recall, the only ways in in the real world are the doorways, and that eliminated Mat die to him being through both already. As Columbo said, though, it's probably Mat's knowledge of the Finns that will be needed.<br /><br />Once again though: Why do we assume that the TAR version of the Tower is the same as the Real world one? Everything else is different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 22:09:18
subject: <b>here it goes...</b>
body:
&quot;The thing is, though, WHY would eberybody converge on the Tower? At least in Tear they all had reasons for being there, but as far as I know, the only reason for ANYBODY to be there is for Perrin in the WD.&quot;<br /><br />Ok, RJ can make his characters converge, sometimes almost completely out of the blue- look what he did at Falme in TGH.<br /><br />I think I just mentioned some reasons, and some pretty important ones in my last post. I clearly think that RJ is setting up a return for Mat to dreamworld.  I think Mat's case is just as strong as Perrin's.<br /><br />Thom's is a little more shaky, but from everything we've seen, it appears Thom will be involved with Moiraine's rescue. <br /><br />The thing is, there will probably be a lot of reasons we can't forsee right now.  For example, what were Moir's 3 wishes (assuming she got them)?  It could be that one of her wishes had to do with her release, but that it didn't happen right away, that maybe her imprisonment was her punishment.  But maybe another clue will leak out soon, perhaps through Egwene or Perrin dreaming.  And maybe one of Moir's 3 wishes will have something to do with her release.<br />Just another hypothetical is that maybe there is some powerful weapon that is locked in the tower that is suddenly re-located- perhaps there will be a race to be the first ones to retrieve it.  We can't really say what might happen there, but alot of things clearly can.<br /><br />&quot; If I recall, the only ways in in the real world are the doorways, and that eliminated Mat die to him being through both already. As Columbo said, though, it's probably Mat's knowledge of the Finns that will be needed.&quot;<br /><br />Mat's knowledge of Finns will be useful.  However, I don't think you are correct about the only gateways to Finnland being the 2 doorways.  I think that the tower can also be entered in the physical world- but that the key to entering hasn't been discovered yet.  I was excited when I read the Celtic post by Xoe because it suggested that these towers could be entered if they were circled 3 times in a certain direction.  Apparently, Perrin circled the Tower twice in the WD, so this circling thing might really be the key to entering the tower.  <br /><br />&quot;Once again though: Why do we assume that the TAR version of the Tower is the same as the Real world one? Everything else is different.&quot;<br /><br />Ok- this is an interesting question, with interesting conclusions.  Let's momentarily ask a different question:  What would happen if someone entered one of the Aes Sedai accepted ter'angreal in dreamworld??<br /> <br />My answer is that it would probably do the same thing- take them to that different dimension.  <br /><br />The thing is- although the towers are in 2 different dimensions, they both probably still serve as Gateways to the Finn dimension.  At least that is my hypothesis.  We already know the dream gateway takes someone to 'Finnland, so why wouldn't the physical tower?? <br /><br /> Both other physical doorways lead people into the Finn dimension, so clearly the Finn dimension can be accessed from both dreamworld and the physical world.  The question that is still in question, is whether the physical Tower of G. can lead someone into Finnland.  I see no reason why it shouldn't.  It just makes sense that it can be accessed.<br /><br />To me, the biggest question is:  How is RJ going to fit all this stuff in one book.  Clearly both Mat and Perrin would have to move around quite a bit for my version of events to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 22:16:54
subject: <b>Well, don't forget...</b>
body:
that this doesn't necciasrily happen in CoT, although with the probability being the Two Towers split via Dreadlords, something good has to balance those out aka. Moiraine's rescue. <br /><br />I guess we won't see until November <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Oh well. <br /><br />BTW, Columbo and I have been down and dirty talking about this stuff so look for a theory by us in the near future on Moiraine (That's IF Jeo posts it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 22:20:41
subject: <b>He probably won't</b>
body:
sorry, i couldn't resist.<br /><br />Do you know that I just submitted 12 theories last month??<br /><br />And guess which won got posted!<br /><br />The one that was almost an afterthought for me, the one I didn't spend any time on.  Yes, it was the Mat Cauthon one.<br /><br />Of course, all 11 were deleted- and some of them (not all) were actually quite good. <br /><br />I don't know if I'll ever post again. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 22:48:03
subject: <b>Yeah, I know the feeling.</b>
body:
I did that a couple of times to be snubbed with quality stuff. I guess they would rather have poorly proven rehashes full of holes than quality original stuff like You and I think up. Not that it's all garbage. That Gholam one was rather thought provoking (About how he is made of the OP). Oh well, hopefully I'll draw someone other than Jeo. He really IS tough!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 01:07:16
subject: <b>Don't Forget the New Phrase for Courage</b>
body:
Also in that chapter and when she goes through T'A'R to Salidar, just before she leaves her mentors tell her to remember her aiel heart.  And still later, when faced with Aes Sedai she reminds herself &quot;heart of an aiel&quot;.  Lending further strength to your theory she will be there, with her courage and aiel heart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">From the treetops, my pain streams<br />Dark even blacker for jolts of sun<br />Shafts that pierce the soul of one<br />I offer truth through a curtain of rain<br />I stay the way of dreams<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Rhaviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 20:16:05
subject: <b>Three in a boat</b>
body:
Maybe it's a little of both.  Thanks for the reply.  At this point I don't agree with you.  I''m sticking with Thom and Mat even though I'm not sure Moraine even needs to be rescued. Lanfear has been released.  When Mat was to die he was left hanging to die in his world.  Has anyone been held by the Finns before?  If Moraine is free and I think she is.  Why have we not seen Moraine?  And if she has returned alive would Lan be aware via the bond?  Will RJ deal with this in the next book?  I hope so. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 20:56:23
subject: <b>Lan's Bond</b>
body:
One theory is that Moirane dies because Lan felt the bond break, and it was transfered to Myrelle. Exactly how bonds are transfered is unclear. Perhaps Moirane arranged for the bond to be transfered after she left her own dimension. At any rate, Lan can learn nothing from the bond because he ceased to have on with Moir. Can't learn anything there.<br /><br />As far as Moir already being out of Finnland, I can accept the vision Eg had with Thom rescuing Moirane as something which doesn't have to be connected to Finnland. But, if Moir is already out of Finnland, where is she?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 23:35:15
subject: <b>On the subject of Lan and the Bond</b>
body:
Either Moiraine is dead or passed the bond to Myrelle before going through the gateway. Perhaps when Lan was unconcious? Doesnt she say something about Putting him out of her mind at that point? The reason that I say this is because if the Bond dissapeared when Moiraine went through the first gateway in Tear, La would have recognised the effects. <br /><br />Columbo brings up a VERY interesting point. If all the others were spit out so quickly, why do we assume that Moi is still there? Could she have something to do with the Borderland armies? She WAS there when Agelmar told Lan that the Borderlands would flock to the Golden Crane. Hmmmmmm..........<br /><br />To TiaB: Lanfear says that her decreased power (which I always assumed was due to her new body) comes from the deal with the Finns. It was the price she paid, the same as Mat paying with his life. Then again, assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 08:37:43
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
&quot;Lanfear says that her decreased power (which I always assumed was due to her new body) comes from the deal with the Finns.&quot;<br /><br />That's not true. She says that she was stronger before she was held by the Finns. Now this may well be due to a deal she made with them, but it definitely does not say that. It could be because she was stilled and later healed. It could be because she had some ter'angreal that maxed out a woman's strength in the power. Who knows? We can't be certain yet, we need more clues.<br /><br />As to the idea that Moiraine could only have either died or passed on the bond before she went through, that's not true. There is at least a third option. When Moiraine went through the gateway in Tear, the warder bond survived, which has lead some to believe that it should have here and therefore she must have died. However, this is not the case. When Moiraine went through the one in Tear, she could still pass through it one more time as she had to leave through that gateway, therefore the link between this world and the Finns was still open and therefore the bond would still work. Besides, there was also the other gateway in Rhuidean that neither of them had passed through which means that the bond could have gone through there. However, the time she fought Lanfear, they destroyed that gateway. As far as we know they are the only two in existence have therefore been closed off to Moiraine's access forever. She is in a totally different world, perhaps another dimension, it would not surprise me at all to find that that broke the bond, how could Lan sense where she is if she's in a different world? There is of course the Tower of Ghenji, but that is not open, so the biond could not pass through that either.<br /><br />It could be as simple as her passing on the bond of course, I'm just giving another view.


created: 2002-03-31 14:49:18
subject: <b>The Bond</b>
body:
I'm kinda leaning toward the idea that Moirane knew something would happen and that she did not want Lan to die trying to avenge her, especially while she was still alive. So she wove the treads necessary to transfer the bond prior to getting into it with Lanfear. Then, when she saw events unfolding like she had been told, she triggered the the bond transfer. Of course, I have no idea if this is possible.<br /><br />Lan has a lot of courage, maybe he'll go to Finnland and rescue her. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 16:03:45
subject: <b>the balance scales</b>
body:
We have seen balance scales around Mat 2 times: once  Min saw his eye on it, and Egwene saw him judging 2 Aes Sedai. About the eye we know that he will sacrifice half the light of the world to save the world, so he will lose an eye. Another seeing of Min's said that the cause of the Light would certainly fail without a woman dead and gone, meaning Moiraine. So if the word &quot;while&quot; really does have the significance you say it does, that would mean that one of those Aes Sedai is Moiraine, and that the price of the deal he will make with the foxes to save her will be his eye.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 16:33:13
subject: <b>and</b>
body:
and I agree, Lan is coming through too: iron to bind, wasn't it... and Lan was bound to Moiraine. And if Lan is coming then maybe Nynaeve is too, after all she's free at the moment and she's as brave as anyone else and it would be ironic if she was to save the woman she hates so much<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 17:53:32
subject: <b>3iaB, this is what we call 'grasping at straws'.</b>
body:
&quot;She says that she was stronger before she was held by the Finns. Now this may well be due to a deal she made with them, but it definitely does not say that. It could be because she was stilled and later healed. It could be because she had some ter'angreal that maxed out a woman's strength in the power. Who knows? We can't be certain yet, we need more clues.&quot; Your first option: She was stilled then healed. That is out because none of the Forsaken knew that was possible never mind having the ability to execute it. Your second option: her having a terangreal that maxed out her power. This is arguably the dumbest thing I have EVER heard on the subject of WoT. First of all, where does it even suggest this, and second of all if that was the case then she would have no need to covet the Chodean Kal because this would be more powerful. Man, that was weak. Oh, and If you need more clues that what was given, you shouldn't comment on Lanfear.<br /><br />&quot;As to the idea that Moiraine could only have either died or passed on the bond before she went through, that's not true. There is at least a third option. When Moiraine went through the gateway in Tear, the warder bond survived, which has lead some to believe that it should have here and therefore she must have died. However, this is not the case. When Moiraine went through the one in Tear, she could still pass through it one more time as she had to leave through that gateway, therefore the link between this world and the Finns was still open and therefore the bond would still work. Besides, there was also the other gateway in Rhuidean that neither of them had passed through which means that the bond could have gone through there. However, the time she fought Lanfear, they destroyed that gateway. As far as we know they are the only two in existence have therefore been closed off to Moiraine's access forever. She is in a totally different world, perhaps another dimension, it would not surprise me at all to find that that broke the bond, how could Lan sense where she is if she's in a different world? There is of course the Tower of Ghenji, but that is not open, so the biond could not pass through that either.&quot; Wow. WOW. Last time I checked, the bond is not a worldly thing. It does not dissapear because someone stands behind a wall, for instance, and if it didn't dissapear when she went through the first gateway, then why when she goes through the second? Oh, and didn't Lan wake before the Doorway was completley burnt? Didn't Rand stop him from going? It's been a while but I seem to remember something of the sort. Oh, and if Birgette says that the Finns are inside the Tower, then the Finns are inside the Tower and that is where one goes when they go through the doorway. Since the bond does not dissapear when one stands behind a wall or is in a building (the Tower) then Lan WOULD feel the bond if she was not A: Dead or B: she passed the bond. Nothing else fits. BTW, being in another dimension likley has nothing to do with the Bond dissapearing since Rand can still feel Alanna when Skimming. <br /><br />BTW, what happened to Vashti?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 19:31:35
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
I believe that Moiraine passed Lan's bond when she went through the gateway. Moiraine is alive, and she killed Lanfear.<br /><br />Heres my theory.<br />Consider the possiblitiy that when Moir went through that doorway already, when she was in Ruidean(spelling?). Perhaps this was one of the things her visions in the Wise One rings told her to do. Then later, when she tackled Lanfear, Moir was carried through the doorway into Finnland <i>for a second time</i>. This would overload the doorway, destroying it, and preventing either of them from returning. Lanfear was killed, Cydaene is evidence of that. Moiraine survived but has no way to get out.<br />I admit I have no proof of this, but it would explain severalm things and I wanted to see what others think of this idea<br /><br />To Green Gaidin: I don't know where Vashti is amd I don't care. Good riddance!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 20:01:30
subject: <b>GG</b>
body:
As to the Moiraine/Lan questions I have already answered them, read again.<br /><br />&quot;She was stilled then healed. That is out because none of the Forsaken knew that was possible never mind having the ability to execute it.&quot;<br /><br />Yes, I'm sure Semirhage doesn't have the ability to execute it, despite being possibly the finest Heaker of the AoL and DEFINITELY of those alive today. Do you really believe that none of the Forsaken know about Nynaeve Healing some of the stilled sisters? Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima knows for certain and any yellow/black sisters within the camp (and we have to assume there are some) would be able to show oen of the female Forsaken. Think of it like this: Lanfear is killed/kills herself to escape the Finns. Her soul is brought back to life. She has been stilled. Moridin hears about Nynaeve's Healing. He orders one of the Black Ajah to instruct Semirhage on how to do it and then orders her to Heal Lanfear.<br /><br />As for the point about a ter'angreal maxing out the power a woman can hold...I didn't mean like an angreal. I'd have said like an angreal if I meant that. I meant maxing out what the strongest woman could possibly hold unaided. Which would obviously be a vast amount less than using the Cheodan Kal. As to clues...well, Lanfear always seemed to wear those stars on her head and I suspect they may have been ter'angreal of some kind, like Cadsuane. So she appears to have SOME sort of ter'angreal. Secondly and more importantly, she is shocked to find that Alivia is stronger than she was. She says something along the lines of (sorry, no books on me) &quot;That was impossible! Now woman COULD be stronger!&quot; Now I've added to capitals as I don't know how to do italics as it is in the books. This could be seen simply as Lanfear's arrogance. Or it could on fact be that somehow she really was as strong as any woman could be unaided, perhaps through a ter'angreal. Combine this comment with her reduction in strength and you have the basis of an argument.<br /><br />Personally I don't think a bargain with the Finns is at all likely. Could you see Lanfear bargaining away some of her power?! Plus her life on top of that, clearly she has died and if not at the hands of the Finns/Moiriane, then who? Do you think lanfear would make a bargain to escape that would include both her death and a loss in her power? Why wouldn't she just try and get herself killed, hell Mat almost managed it w/o even wanting to die!


created: 2002-03-31 20:02:56
subject: <b>*chuckle*</b>
body:
Glad to see I was missed!  A couple of 15-hour work days, a film shoot for another 13 hours, and family obligations for the holiday have kept me busy.<br /><br />But I'm not going to get into that further.  My point of interconnectedness stands (and has been reinforced elsewhere, but those who like to nitpick will pretend not to see it).  And it doesn't matter, since the purpose was to mock and not to share.  <br /><br />Anyone including Mat into this theory will need to account for quite a few things:  1. Rand's need for him (time is drawing close) 2. Talmanes' feeling of urgency  3. The whole Tuon-Seanchan resolution.   I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying they are current (and quite important) issues that need to be accounted for, and haven't been yet.  But I don't expect it to be taken seriously, since the knee-jerk reaction is one of puerile petulance.


created: 2002-03-31 22:02:36
subject: <b>Three, with those kindof moronic comments, you shouldnt be allowed here.</b>
body:
&quot;Do you really believe that none of the Forsaken know about Nynaeve Healing some of the stilled sisters? Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima knows for certain and any yellow/black sisters within the camp (and we have to assume there are some) would be able to show oen of the female Forsaken.&quot; Wow. Point #1, Arangar cannot understand a woman's way of channeling. Arangar can control the MALE half of the OP. Point #2, a woman healing a woman makes them SUBSTANTIALLY weaker than they were. Since, to my recolection, no male has healed stilling yet, Lanfear's strength would be FAR weaker than she was, but this is not the case. If Lanfear was a 10, now she's a 7. Siuan was an 8, now she's a 4. Lanfear's weakness is a result of the Deal. Why? Because it's the only thing that Jordan has even HINTED at. If it is because of some retarded healing-behind-the-scenes I'll be VERY dissapointed because it's not his style at all.<br /><br />&quot;As for the point about a ter'angreal maxing out the power a woman can hold...I didn't mean like an angreal. I'd have said like an angreal if I meant that. I meant maxing out what the strongest woman could possibly hold unaided. Which would obviously be a vast amount less than using the Cheodan Kal. As to clues...well, Lanfear always seemed to wear those stars on her head and I suspect they may have been ter'angreal of some kind, like Cadsuane. So she appears to have SOME sort of ter'angreal. Secondly and more importantly, she is shocked to find that Alivia is stronger than she was. She says something along the lines of (sorry, no books on me) &quot;That was impossible! Now woman COULD be stronger!&quot; Now I've added to capitals as I don't know how to do italics as it is in the books. This could be seen simply as Lanfear's arrogance. Or it could on fact be that somehow she really was as strong as any woman could be unaided, perhaps through a ter'angreal. Combine this comment with her reduction in strength and you have the basis of an argument.&quot; OK, that's a good point. She wore stuff in her hair, so it MUST have been a ter'angreal even though Jordan didn't hint at it in the least. *shakes head* Oh, and as for being unaided with a TA, I think that you misunderstand 'unaided'. Sheesh man! Besides, if she was trapped in the Bore for 3000 years, what's to say that they still had what they had? Besides, if she was only more powerful because of a TA, we would have seen smugness from the other Female Forsaken. Oh, and anything thatlets you draw more of the OP than you can naturally is called an ANGREAL, not a TER'ANGREAL.<br /><br />Man, oh man. Why am I still responding if THIS is what I'm arguing against? It seems that I keep shutting you guys down ad you keep coming back with dumber statements every time. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 02:49:05
subject: <b>not Healed</b>
body:
I bet Lanfear wasn't Healed of stilling, because Nynaeve isn't the only one who's discovered a way to do that. So has one of Rand's Asha'man, I don't remember which one. When he Healed the Aes Sedai Rand had severed, no-one mentioned any loss of strength. If they had lost strength, I'm certain everyone would have noticed it, look at the commotion it caused among the SAS. And the Forsaken should know about both, they have eyes-and-ears around Rand, and in the Aiel camps for sure, not to mention the among Asha'man themselves... So if Lanfear really was Healed, she would be Healed in a way that she wouldn't lose strength. I'm sure the DO could have it arranged.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 09:00:47
subject: <b>Sigh</b>
body:
I don't know why people can't be more civil, but anyway...<br /><br />&quot;Wow. Point #1, Arangar cannot understand a woman's way of channeling. Arangar can control the MALE half of the OP.&quot;<br /><br />I know! My god! Read what I say! Aran'gar will of course have heard about the Healing. She is highly likely to have reported it to Shaidar Haran/Moridin. If she hadn't, they'd find out some other way, they will have spies within the camp. Then it is simply a matter of getting a woman (whether BA or a captured Aes Sedai under compulsion) who can reproduce the weave to show Semirhage.<br /><br />&quot;Point #2, a woman healing a woman makes them SUBSTANTIALLY weaker than they were. Since, to my recolection, no male has healed stilling yet, Lanfear's strength would be FAR weaker than she was, but this is not the case. If Lanfear was a 10, now she's a 7. Siuan was an 8, now she's a 4.&quot;<br /><br />So, Nynaeve, using Healing that has been described as sloppy by a Wise Woman even in today's pathetic version of Healing when compared to the AoL, managed to get Suian back but only at 1/2 her previous strength. Yet you can't believe that if Semirhage was shown the weave and refined it using her FAR superior knowledge (as she was the greatest Healer in the AoL and is also considerably stronger than Nynaeve, not sure if the latter would make a difference to the Healing), you don't think she could bring Lanfear 7/10 of her strength back as opposed to Nynaeve bringing 5/10 of Suian's?<br /><br />&quot;Lanfear's weakness is a result of the Deal. Why? Because it's the only thing that Jordan has even HINTED at. If it is because of some retarded healing-behind-the-scenes I'll be VERY dissapointed because it's not his style at all.&quot;<br /><br />I don't know whether it'll be Healing behind the scenes or the DO's punishment or what! But to say that Lanfear's weakness is a result of a deal with the Finns as it's the only thing hinted at is ridiculous! The only thing that has been hinted at is that her reduction in strength happened due to her visit go the Finns! What if Lanfear tried to break a different deal and escape and they reduced her power? We know they ahve all sorts of powers. That wouldn't be part of the deal! It'd be a punishment! Can your mind not hold the idea that more than just a deal could have happened while she was with the Finns?!<br /><br />&quot;As for the point about a ter'angreal maxing out the power a woman can hold...I didn't mean like an angreal. I'd have said like an angreal if I meant that. I meant maxing out what the strongest woman could possibly hold unaided. Which would obviously be a vast amount less than using the Cheodan Kal. As to clues...well, Lanfear always seemed to wear those stars on her head and I suspect they may have been ter'angreal of some kind, like Cadsuane. So she appears to have SOME sort of ter'angreal. Secondly and more importantly, she is shocked to find that Alivia is stronger than she was. She says something along the lines of (sorry, no books on me) &quot;That was impossible! Now woman COULD be stronger!&quot; Now I've added to capitals as I don't know how to do italics as it is in the books. This could be seen simply as Lanfear's arrogance. Or it could on fact be that somehow she really was as strong as any woman could be unaided, perhaps through a ter'angreal. Combine this comment with her reduction in strength and you have the basis of an argument.&quot; <br /><br />&quot;OK, that's a good point. She wore stuff in her hair, so it MUST have been a ter'angreal even though Jordan didn't hint at it in the least.&quot;<br /><br />Yes, you'll notice that I said MUST and gave no room for myself being wrong. Oh no, wait, I didn't. How do we know Jordan didn't hint at it? I believe he has hinted at it ever since Cadsuane hair ornaments were revealed to be ter'angreal and possibly from beforehand. The amount of times something has been revealed in later books and when you look back you think &quot;Damn, the hints were there all along&quot;, I'm not arrogant enough to think Jordan hasn't got more of these in storre for us.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and as for being unaided with a TA, I think that you misunderstand 'unaided'. Sheesh man!&quot;<br /><br />Please, stop nitpicking! You know what I meant, but just in case you can't understand it, I'll explain again. Imagine the absolute limit a woman could have in the power unaided. She'd be the most powerful woman in the world and could only ever be equalled, unless people were holding angreal. Nowe imagine a ter'angreal that allows any woman who can channel to be able to hold that amount. That is what I'm getting at, I'm not saying Lanfear was unaided, I'm saying that it's the putting her up to the max strength a woman could be w/o being aided!<br /><br />&quot;Besides, if she was trapped in the Bore for 3000 years, what's to say that they still had what they had?&quot;<br /><br />Clothes might well wear away, in fact they almost certainly did, but Lanfear was deep enough to retain her previous body. Besides, why would a ter'angreal not have survived? They're next to impossible to destroy and being trapped in a place where time would barely touch it seems quite safe.<br /><br />&quot;Besides, if she was only more powerful because of a TA, we would have seen smugness from the other Female Forsaken.&quot;<br /><br />If they knew about the ter'angreal.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and anything that lets you draw more of the OP than you can naturally is called an ANGREAL, not a TER'ANGREAL.&quot;<br /><br />No, what I have described is NOT an angreal. An angreal magnifies the amount of power you can hold. It multiplies the power you already have. So if Elayne was to use the same angreal has Suian, Elayne's increase in power would be greater than Suian's. They may both double in power, but that of course is in Elayne's favour. What I have proposed does something quite different. It adds to the power until you hold as much as any woman could. It would not matter whether Elayne or Suian held it, they would both increase to the same strength. Thereofre it is a ter'angreal.<br /><br />The problemn we have here seems to be a misunderstanding. You seem to think I'm putting forward theories that I believe in and that I refuse to believe yours. That's not the case. I only started putting forward other ideas when you said that a deal was the only logical answer. Do I believe that she has lost a ter'angreal? No, probably not. Do I believe she was healed by Semirhage? Again, not really. Do I believe she let the Finns take some of her power so she could be freed? Nope, but it's a possibility. Do I believe her power loss is the result of her visit to the Finns? Yes. However, just because I believe one theory more than any other does not mean I can't allow myself to believe that others exist. Hopefully you will come out of your arrogance and see that a deal with the Finns is not the only explanation possible, even if you think it most likely.


created: 2002-04-01 10:04:18
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
This is flat-out impossible.  I personally believe it will happen in book 10 since all required elements are there.<br />Olver or Mat could do for courage, Aludra's fireworks for fire, Thom for music, and Mat again for iron.  It would be<br />ironic if Mat used his power-wrought iron to bind the aelfinn and the elfinn.  Egwene should and could not be there<br />for a few reasons.  One: she's got responsibilities.  Two: There are many more courageous people than her.<br />Three: she's not in the right place.  Four: it has nothing to do with T'A'R because Birgitte said it's harder to escape<br />THERE than in the normal world.  Why would they make it harder?<br /><br />I don't think it'd be Perrin either because he is also out of place and he's on a sort of quest to, y'know, rescue the love <br />of his life.  I doubt he'd want to sacrifice Faile on the off-chance they can get Moiraine back.  However, it's more<br />likely for him to do it than Egwene by far.


created: 2002-04-01 10:53:16
subject: <b>Sigh</b>
body:
How many times do I have to explain EXCATLY the same things?<br /><br />&quot;Egwene should and could not be there<br />for a few reasons. One: she's got responsibilities.&quot;<br /><br />Yes, she does. But so does Mat and no one worries about him going. Besides as I've already said, she could go without even knowing she's helping rescue Moiraine! She might be chasing Slayer if she sees him in TAR around her camp.<br /><br />&quot;Two: There are many more courageous people than her.&quot;<br /><br />If you read my theory you'll see that I did not pick Egwene for courage simply because I think she is most courageous. I chose her because hs eis specifically the one shwing so much courage in the chapter entitled Courage to Strengthen, a line from the chant!<br /><br />&quot;Three: she's not in the right place.&quot;<br /><br />In TAR she can always be in the right place.<br /><br />&quot;Four: it has nothing to do with T'A'R because Birgitte said it's harder to escape<br />THERE than in the normal world. Why would they make it harder?&quot;<br /><br />They aren't consiously making it harder! She wouldn't know she was going to rescue Moiraine!<br /><br />As to Perrin not going along, if he saw Egwene about to enter the Tower of Ghenji chasing Slayer for example and he warned her, but she went anyway because she thinks she is such a pro in TAR that she could handle it, do you not think he'd go after her?<br /><br />As you obviously haven't read the posts above (or if you have you forget things quickly) I suppose I also need to point out once again that I'm not at all sure that this will happen, it's just a theory, you can put forward theories without believing in them (unless you're defining theory differently to me). it may seem like I'm being incredibly defensive over something I'm not sure I believe, but I'm just trying to point out that it's not &quot;flat-out impossible&quot;.


created: 2002-04-01 12:29:58
subject: <b>Seriously, what am I doing here?</b>
body:
Why am I arguing with you if you don't even understand the difference between an angreal and a ter'angreal? Anything that let's you hold more of the Power than you can naturally is called an angreal. Period. End of discussion!<br /><br />BTW, if you don't believe in what you're spouting, then why bother?<br /><br />Oh, and if Lanfear was the strongest, and Aliva isstronger with Nynaeve close behind, then Lanfear's 10 equals Nynaeve at 9. On par with Semirhage, wouldn't you say? Also, if Semirhage has no idea how to use the healing, then I wouldn't say that she has an advantage over Nynaeve, would you? Oh, and Nynaeve is ANYTHING but a sloppy healer. In fact, I would say that short of Sem, she's the best ever.<br /><br />No. Why am I still here? Honestly? I shouldn't have even responded to this if you're just throwing out Ideas for me to shut down. You DO have some good points, like what would last through the 3000 years in the Bore, but that ter'angreal/angreal thing is just too much!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 13:46:46
subject: <b>A few more comments</b>
body:
It seems to me that I have heard Mat being mentioned as someone who plays Snakes and Foxes, and it also seems he may have had a run-in with the Finns once (or twice) before. He is mentioned in the dream Egwene had, as being alongside Thom when he pulls the stone from the fire. I gotta beleive Mat will somehow aid Thom in rescueing Moirane, regardless of who else goes. He also has memories which could help, and knows you need to cheat at Snakes and Foxes to win.<br /><br />Perrin also has links to the Tower, and I think it is reasonable to think he may have something to do with the rescue when it happens, even if it is indirectly. Yes, Perrin is kinda busy right now. But one night in TAR won't slow him (or Egwene) down all to much. Egwene may have all the time in the world, if Bryne is allowed to lay siege to Tar Valon. Seiges can take years. Remeber, Aes Sedai cannot channel unless their lives, or the lives of other sisters or warders are in danger. So this showdown probably won't be a big fireworks showdown. It is more likely to be resolved diplomatically.<br /><br />I had proposed, several posts ago, that perhaps Lan would go, because he has courage. Someone else posted that he had been &quot;bonded&quot; to Moirane and is like iron, and hence agreed with me. Unfortunatly, that suggestion was made in jest. He is much to busy making Nyneve's face flush to go run off after Moirane. Unless everybody goes to rescue her. Now that I think about it, Rand would qualify as well. He plays music, he is getting hard (like iron), he can shoot fireballs, or even those ropes of fire things he learned from Sammal in CoT. And he is courageous.<br /><br />No, perhaps we should just stick with people who have been associated with the Finns, the Tower, or even the riddle in some way.<br /><br />As for the Lanfear thing, my mind is definatly made up. I'll wait until the next book comes out to decide how she lost strength and came back. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace, out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 13:59:40
subject: <b>Again...</b>
body:
&quot;Why am I arguing with you if you don't even understand the difference between an angreal and a ter'angreal? Anything that let's you hold more of the Power than you can naturally is called an angreal.&quot;<br /><br />Sigh, no it's not. I have demonstrated how an angreal multiplies power and that what I am saying does not do this. There's nothing more I can add though, so well just have to differ.<br /><br />&quot;BTW, if you don't believe in what you're spouting, then why bother?&quot;<br /><br />1. I like to spawn discussion. I will put forward posibilities, anythign I can't find proof against.<br /><br />2. If someone says there's only one way something might go, even if I agree with the idea they have, I will point out other possibilites if they exist.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and if Lanfear was the strongest, and Aliva is stronger with Nynaeve close behind&quot;<br /><br />Alivia is not stronger than Lanfear was. She had a strong angreal when yndane faced her. Even the weakest of angreal will multiply your strength by half.<br /><br />&quot;Then Lanfear's 10 equals Nynaeve at 9. On par with Semirhage, wouldn't you say?&quot;<br /><br />No I wouldn't. Nynaeve is on par with Moghedien's power, who is the weakest of the female Forsaken. We don't know how strong Semirhage is, but stronger than Nynaeve certainly.<br /><br />&quot;Also, if Semirhage has no idea how to use the healing, then I wouldn't say that she has an advantage over Nynaeve, would you?&quot;<br /><br />Yes I do think she will have an advantage. She simply doesn't know the weave. But her handling of the weaves will be far superior.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and Nynaeve is ANYTHING but a sloppy healer. In fact, I would say that short of Sem, she's the best ever.&quot;<br /><br />I'm sorry, but you just don't know the facts of the series as well as I. Not on these points anyway. Sumeko the Kinswoman is better for a start. The following is what Nynaeve says the first time she sees Sumeko Heal (CoS): '&quot;No, no, go on,&quot; Nynaeve said absently. Most of her attention was fixed on the woman under her hands, but not all. &quot;You seem to know a few things even I-That is to say, you ahve a very interesting way with the flows. I suspect that a great many sisters will want to learn from you.&quot; Half under her breath, she added, &quot;Maybe now they'll leave me alone.&quot;'<br /><br />Also, in PoD the you can see the following: &quot;Sumeko had criticized several of Nynaeve's Healing weaves as &quot;clumsy,&quot; and Elayne thought Nynaeve was going to have apoplexy on the spot.&quot;<br /><br />So a self taught Wise Woman is better than Nynaeve in these days. I would think that if Nynaeve was to travel to the AoL somehow, she'd find herself to onyl be an above average Healer.


created: 2002-04-01 17:42:35
subject: <b>Other healers</b>
body:
I don't remember names, so I'm sure I'll get ripped up and down by the nit-pickers, but anyway....<br /><br />After Fain slashed Rand's wound and Cadsuane and Co. were trying to save him, Cadsuane spoke to a Yellow, saying (paraphrased), &quot;You are the best healer today, maybe ever.&quot;<br /><br />Now, if we assume that Cadsuane is still an Aes Sedai and bound to the Rod, we know she cannot lie (I only say 'if' because I've seen some suggestions proposing that she's not. I believe she is).  However, she CAN be mistaken, and wrong, without it being a lie.  She hasn't met Nynaeve (and Semirhage!) yet, for instance.  But...that certainly means we can believe that the Yellow AS to whom she spoke is an incredibly good healer. <br /><br />Then, there's the old man Asha'man (again I can't remember names) who partially healed Rand.  He did more than Nynavae AND that Yellow did.  This doesn't make him better, necessarily...maybe just talented and lucky. <br /><br />But in any event, Nynaeve certainly has a lot of competition for best Healer.  More likely, she's very talented, but not as much as the others, yet has more power.  Plus, as a wilder, she's accustomed to finding non-standard ways of doing things (a plus for her, actually). <br /><br />A power comment:  Nynaeve is a wilder and still coming into her power.  Now that her block is gone, it may grow in leaps and bounds.  She seems to know very little about channelling compared to any Aes Sedai or other formally trained female channeler (Wise Woman, Wind Mistress), but she has power and creativity.  Even Moghedien commented about how interesting she could be when she's properly trained.


created: 2002-04-01 19:16:31
subject: <b>Vashti RETURNS.......</b>
body:
I have to say I wasn't expecting you back after the beating you recieved from GG.<br /><br />Vashti says:  &quot; More likely,  she's very talented,  but not as much as they others,  yet has more power.&quot;<br /><br />Columbo says: &quot; Nyneave SWEATS talent.  There is no one with a tenth of the talent she has.  Nyneave lacks only proper training.  Nyneave has accomplished things only dreamed of.  <br />&quot; yet more power.&quot;  Moraine decribes Nyneave as a bonfire beside two candles. The two candles I'm refering to are Egwene and Elayne.  Two that have the potential to be the strongest AS in a thousand years.  I would say you are right SHE HAS WAYYY MORRRRRRREEEE PPPOOOWWWWEEEERRR!  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 19:48:32
subject: <b>Mad Ashaman,</b>
body:
Randwashere and Green Gaidin thanks for the feedback on the bond.  I think it was Randwashere who mentioned that Moraine hasn't returned because the doorway was destroyed.  Is there not another way to return other than the doorway that was destroyed?  And if there is why is Moraine being held?  Has anyone ever been held by the Finns?  Lanfear has returned via a deal with the Finns or death.  If Moraine is dead how will she return.  If Moraine is alive why hasn't she made a deal with the Finns and returned?  If Moraine has returned why have we not heard from her?<br /><br />Looking forward to your feedback.<br /><br />I'm with you Mad Ashaman Re: Vashti.  Unfortunatley he has shown up again with what he probably considers  another break through.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 19:58:26
subject: <b>Beating?</b>
body:
Hmm...taking a very minor point that wasn't even relevant to what I said, and throwing a temper tantrum that blinded oneself to greater possibilities...that doesn't represent a beating.  I still don't recall him effectively countering my point about Aviendha.  Which is funny, since that was just supposition -- thinking out loud, if you will.  If that's what you call a beating, then you probably think the South won the Civil War. <br /><br />There's a difference between skill and ability.  Nynaeve is an incredibly gifted, incredibly powerful amateur.  That's right -- amateur. What is an amateur? One who lacks formal, professional training.  She does. Almost completely.  Her training has been highly constrained because her time in the tower was blocked by her inability to see flows (unless she was highly pissed).  Pretty much, her education -- short as it has been -- has been limited to theory.  And she's hardly the most patient student.<br /><br />Now, I'm not dissing Nynaeve.  Aside from the fact that she's the most annoying character I've encountered in literature in the last decade, as written, she is very clever, very brave, very determined.  She seeps with Power. But healing Suian wasn't an issue of Power. It was an issue of trying something different. In this case, her lack of training helped.  As one of the AS commented, &quot;What made you think to use Fire?? Fire is NEVER used in healing!&quot;  ...until now.  It's not that the other AS -couldn't- have done it, it's that they never would have thought to try.  That goes back to the Age of Legends, btw. <br /><br />But...once they saw how it was done, they immediately were seeing ways it could be done with more finesse and SKILL.  <br /><br />So far, everyone is assuming that the reason the un-stilled women are less in power is because a woman healed them.  We don't have any support for that, though.  It is, as your idol and demigod Green Gaidain said (I think it was him), an assumption, and we all know what that means.   That then presumes that a woman healed Lanfear, and that in fact she was stilled.  Yet no one knows what reincarnation does to one's channelling ability.  For instance, we know it's tied to the soul, or else Halima would be a typical female channeler.  <br /><br />Maybe what it needs is both a male and a female, instead of someone of the opposite sex.  Or maybe it's just an issue that, as with a dug hole being refilled, you never refill it completely. After all, we don't know if Logain has less power than he did, since we have no way to measure.  We can SPECULATE, but that's all it would be: speculation. <br /><br />Either way, Nynaeve accomplished what no one else did.  It wasn't due to training or Power, but to inspiration.  That being said, she did it clumsily.  And the other Aes Sedai botched in allowing her to do it the way she did.  After she Healed one of the women, they should have had that one draw power, to note the effects. <br /><br />But just because it was clumsy doesn't make it any less remarkable. But it doesn't mean it couldn't have been done better -- more skillfully.


created: 2002-04-01 20:31:54
subject: <b>Sigh. TiaB</b>
body:
I didn't want to do this, but you leave me no choice. It's going to hurt you more than it will me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Columbo, get the RedBall.<br /><br />&quot;Sigh, no it's not. I have demonstrated how an angreal multiplies power and that what I am saying does not do this. There's nothing more I can add though, so well just have to differ.&quot; When I get home, I'm going to look up the definition for Angreal for you.  Oh, and while we're on the subject, what do you call an object that let's one hold more of the power than they could without it? ANGREAL. If you can't see that then I'm sorry but mabye you need to read the books again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&quot;Alivia is not stronger than Lanfear was. She had a strong angreal when yndane faced her. Even the weakest of angreal will multiply your strength by half.&quot; Yeah, OK. Lanfear, the cavewoman that she is didn't see it? Jeez man! Pull your head out from between your cheeks! That would mean that the strongest AS of this age are less than half as powerful as Lanfear was? You're thinking like an AS. The Forsaken are not gods, only mortals. Get it straight.<br /><br />&quot;Nynaeve is on par with Moghedien's power, who is the weakest of the female Forsaken. We don't know how strong Semirhage is, but stronger than Nynaeve certainly.&quot; Wow. Thanks for your opinion, but unfortunatley it is completley unfounded. Why is Sem stronger than Nyn? Can you provide an example? Are you basing this on the fact that the Forsaken are from the AOL? The Forsaken arent the Forsaken because they were the strongest in the Power. True, they were thirteen &quot;Of the strongest&quot;, but not THE strongest. Take Asmodean for example. In this Age we have seen 4 (or mabye 5) people that are as strong or stronger than he was. We have Rand, Logain, Taim, Narishma and (mabye) Flinn. That's 5 off the top of my head. Isn't it possible, just mabye, that the Forsaken were just people? On a scale of 1-10, that would make Nynaeve a 4 with Aliva as a 5, right? Do you REALLY think that if Lanfear was a 10 that one of the strongest 13 people would only be Moghedien's strength? That would make Moghedien a 4, as well. Nynaeve OWNED Moghedien with less knowledge/skill. What does that tell you? It tells me that Nynaeve is more powerful than Moghedien by a longshot. Moghedien is mabye an 8, with Nyn a 9 and Aliva/Lanfear at 10. Oh, and Nynaeve hasnt reached her potential yet. As Columbo said above, She was a Bonfire next to Egw and Elay's candles. And Moiraine is no fool. The AVERAGE Channeler of this Age is weaker, true, but next you'll be telling me that Rand is not as powerful as LTT!? If you do then this discussion is over and you get an F for Fool. <br /><br />&quot;Yes I do think she will have an advantage. She simply doesn't know the weave. But her handling of the weaves will be far superior.&quot; That's a pretty big 'simply'. Oh, and if you want examples, then remember when Nyn. healed Avi's friend? If I'm not mistaken, Elayne remarks that what Nyn was doing to heal was like 'knitting a sweater in each hand, one with each foot, blindfolded. Then it just got too coplex to follow.' Not an exact quote, but if you don't remember it, just ask and I'll look it up. That is not exactly easy to do, considering Elayne doesnt think that she can even FOLLOW the weaves, and she's supposed to be the strongest in 1000 years! Man, oh man; you are getting  trashed! Knowing you, though, you'll just come back with another few ridiculous statements to 'back up' your inane fancies. WAIT! I'm not done yet.<br /><br />&quot;I'm sorry, but you just don't know the facts of the series as well as I.&quot; Like when your comment about the angreal that isnt an angreal 'tore me apart'? yeah. That WAS pretty bad. *laughs*<br /><br />&quot;You seem to know a few things even I-That is to say, you ahve a very interesting way with the flows. I suspect that a great many sisters will want to learn from you.&quot; Half under her breath, she added, &quot;Maybe now they'll leave me alone.&quot;' So, she weaves differently from Nyn. Big Deal. Nyn doesnt say that it's BETTER, just different. Oh, and BTW; Sumeko is about 300 years old. Nynaeve is about 26. Sumeko has been trained by the Tower/Kinswomen. Total time spent in the Tower for Nynaeve: about 3 months. Now don't get me wrong; Sumeko is obviously very good, but when have we ever seen Nyn lose a person with the OP? What about Sumeko's experience with healing stilling? Yeah, that was GREAT. Oh, and what about when she calls Nyn's weaves sloppy? I take that to mean that she sees tha traditional AS method as lesser than her own but that isn't proven. After all, Sumeko lost a woman who was attacked by the Gholam. Nyn has NEVER lost anyone. Thank you. Next point.<br /> <br />&quot;So a self taught Wise Woman is better than Nynaeve in these days. I would think that if Nynaeve was to travel to the AoL somehow, she'd find herself to onyl be an above average Healer.&quot; Self taught? What do you call the Kinswomen? Didn't she spend time in the Tower? Obviously... how did you say it? &quot;I'm sorry, but you just don't know the facts of the series as well as I&quot; <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />OWWWWWW. OOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW. OOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHH.........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 20:42:29
subject: <b>Vashti: Does anyone elso think this guy's a moron?</b>
body:
I'm REALLY getting tired of shutting you down, but... wait. That's a good point. Nynaeve was the first to do it, and it COULD be that it was sloppy, and it COULD be that someone else might do it better in 3000 years, but wait: We DO have something to measure it by. Logain. If Logain is of a power with Taim, and Taim is slightly less than Rand, than unless we are to believe that Logain was more powerful then Rand by roughly double, we have to READ BETWEEN THE LINES and see that Logain is as powerful as he was before. Nyn, the 2nd most powerful woman of this Age shielded him and knew that he had to but flex his might and the Shield would snap. Sounds like he's back to where he was, doesn't it? Can you pick your drooling head up from he desk and nod? That's a good boy. *pats Vashti on the head* <br /><br />Jeez man! That was ALMOST a point! Better luck next time!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 20:57:23
subject: <b>*chuckle*</b>
body:
Hmm...that sounds suspiciously like a SUPPOSITION, Sickly-Green Gaidan.  And...searching my memory...yep. It's precisely the sort of thing you love ranking on people about.  <br /><br />Hoisted on your own petard!  God, that was easy. Thanks for cooperating.  Go home. Do not pass go, do not collect $200 or a brain.<br /><br />Sorry. Not responding to your drivel anymore, or for your lackey-in-waiting (or maid of honor or whatever), Columbo.  This is a board for intelligent people.  You can pick up your keys and hat at the door.


created: 2002-04-01 21:10:33
subject: <b>TiaB and Vashti</b>
body:
I have to agree with Green Gaidin in both cases.  Three in a boat and Vashti seem to have opinions on everthing with no facts to back there opinions. Even in cases where they've tried to use facts it has been with misinformation.  Green Gaidin its clear to me you've done your research and have proven your points over and over again.  Well Done Green Gaidin!<br /><br />In particular Vashti you have always given the impression that you know more than anyone else on this site.  Yet time and again you fail to prove your point.  I think maybe you should read them again.  What do you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 21:20:52
subject: <b>What a shock!</b>
body:
&quot;I have to agree with Green Gaidan on this one&quot; (Columbo)<br /><br />Well DUH! Dude, just give him a reach-around and some flowers and get it over with.  <br /><br />See how easy it is to accuse someone of not presenting facts when you don't present your own?  I think if you read back, Columbo, you'll notice that I've presented considerable evidence.  But if you ignore it, then you can pretend it doesn't exist. And then you get good fodder for one-liners. They'll be inaccurate, but you're used to that.


created: 2002-04-01 21:27:17
subject: <b>Vashti PLEASE!</b>
body:
don't respond anymore.  Thank you!  You pretend to be intelligent.  You pretend to know more than others. Then when you are confronted with facts you respond like a child would and accuse us of the behavior.  If our responses to your pipe dreams are to devastating and you haven't a response because you are not half as intelligent and know less than half of that concerning the WOT then PLEASE DON&quot;T WASTE MY TIME!<br /><br /> Have you nothing to share?  I've said it before and I'll say it again,  read the books as you don't have anything to add but your childish behavior.  Facts Vashti and not misinformation only please.  Don't waste our time.  If you don't have anything to share then PLEASE DON'T.  Stop acting the child and then pointing your finger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 21:37:49
subject: <b>Aviendha</b>
body:
I will not waste my time AGAIN VASHTI.  Aviendha is a million to one shot.  You can do better than this can't you.  No you can't you've already proven that many times over haven't you.  <br /><br />&quot; In my day, girls jumped when a Wise One said jump,  and continued jumping until they were told to stop.   As I am still alive,  it is still my day.  Need I make myself clearer?&quot;<br /><br />               - Sorilea, to Aveindha and Egwene al'Vere<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 21:38:46
subject: <b>EEeeeek!</b>
body:
I ignored my own advice and responded!  S'okay. Won't anymore. But something for you to check on, Clown-umbo, is my notes where I detailed Aviendha's affinity for fire, where I detailed the 'Busy' factor of all the major characters, where I detailed the other factors of skilled Healers, where I detailed Nynaeve's lack of training.  They are facts, they are verifiable, you can look them up.<br /><br />What have you done, Clown-umbo? Besides prostrate yourself at SGG's feet and tried to provoke?  Anyone with a clue knows what a lame debate trick it is to deflect attention by making wild accusations, without anything to back them up.  <br /><br />&quot;The Best Defense is a Good Offense&quot; is a minor-league tactic and will get smacked over the fence in the big leagues.  And you're not even trying a -good- offense.  You're just typing in all caps.  <br /><br />I'm off this thread, folks.  Enjoy!


created: 2002-04-01 21:47:22
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
You got me Vashti.  I have news for you Vashti. You've  been of this thread for a long time  you just didn't know it. Well that isn't surprising now is it?  <br /><br />Vashti is after all only smoke and mirrors.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 22:58:17
subject: <b>The quote is SO true</b>
body:
&quot;Only a ninny thinks she can threaten people, Elayne, and still get anywhere.&quot;<br />-Nynaeve al'Meara<br /><br />&quot;Hmm...that sounds suspiciously like a SUPPOSITION, Sickly-Green Gaidan.&quot; oooooooooooooo! Ouch! That'll teach me! Oh, and if you want to TRY to p!ss on someone, at least spell their name right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> There's a good boy.<br /><br />&quot;Go home. Do not pass go, do not collect $200 or a brain.&quot; I am home, I'm not going anywhere, and I gave all my money away to help the treatment of people like you. Oh, and since I shut you down on every 'point' that you made (Like thge revelation of Avi's fire abilities. Man, was THAT a target), I guess my brain is working fine.<br /><br />&quot;This is a board for intelligent people. You can pick up your keys and hat at the door.&quot; Intelligent people like....... you? You're deep and profound understanding of how Mat MAY HAVE had a run in with the Finns? Vashti, the tapes are abridged. Try the books.<br /><br />&quot;Well DUH! Dude, just give him a reach-around and some flowers and get it over with.&quot; ooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkk........ are you jealous? I have to be honest; you sound jealous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Seriously though, why is it consdered bad to join the winning team?  And we ARE winning. When we started responding here, the votes for the thread were 90% for and 10% against. Ever since you joined TiaB's side the votes are now 49% for and 51% against. I guess you really DID provide rock solid evidence. Too bad feces arent accepted as widley as facts. Ouch. <br /> <br />&quot;you'll notice that I've presented considerable evidence.&quot; Uhhh.......... where? Everything you've said has been shot down by Columbo or myself. Seriously, that HAS to hurt.<br /><br />&quot; I detailed Aviendha's affinity for fire&quot; LOL! Torn apart. Master Gill strikes a mean match.<br /><br />&quot;I detailed the 'Busy' factor of all the major characters&quot; As evidenced by the right honerab;e Matrimony Cauthon, that doesn't mean anything. Remember Tear? Falme? Avi is with Elayne and RAND right now. I don't think she's leaving any time soon. Torn apart.<br /><br />&quot;I detailed the other factors of skilled Healers&quot; Torn apart. Hard.<br /><br />&quot;I detailed Nynaeve's lack of training.&quot; It's not called a point when you debunk it yourself. Remember? Originality. Torn Apart.<br /><br />&quot;They are facts, they are verifiable, you can look them up.&quot; Where? In the Abridged tapes? LOL<br /><br />&quot;Anyone with a clue knows what a lame debate trick it is to deflect attention by making wild accusations, without anything to back them up.&quot; Wait wait wait wait. YOU are accusing COLUMBO of not having valid points? LMAO! Whatever YOU say!<br /><br />&quot;&quot;The Best Defense is a Good Offense&quot; is a minor-league tactic and will get smacked over the fence in the big leagues. And you're not even trying a -good- offense.&quot; Yeah. You're a powerhouse.ROTFLMAO!<br /><br />&quot;I'm off this thread, folks. Enjoy!&quot; We will without you.<br /><br />OOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.............  OOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW......... OOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...........<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 03:53:37
subject: <b>Maybe if you try really, really hard</b>
body:
you can reach one hundred posts of complete crap. Your at 78, 79 counting my little addition. At times though, I must admit, you infantile banter is amusing, at others just embarrasing. *Points his finger at Columbo and Green Gaidin* You two have degraded this whole post with you inflammatory crap. I will do the same thing to you GG as you seem to enjoy doing to 3inaBoat. The first minut, utterly meaningless point I will argue just for the sake of arguing, is how you figure Taim, Logain, Narishma, and Flinn are stronger then Asmodean. If you where to read tSR, at the very end, you will find rand haveing a very difficult time defeating Asmo. Surely you don't mean to say Taim and Logain are as strong as Rand? As to why you even put Flinn and Narishma in this group I cannot fathom, Flinn is an above average male at best, and though Narishma has the spark inborn, and MAY become very powerful, he is not yet.<br /><br />Second point, where did Nyn work Moggy? Once again, if you were to read tSR, instead of spending you time here pulling senseless arguments out of your a$$, you will find Nyn in a deadlock with Moggy, only beating her with a little physical distraction. It being generally accepted that Moggy is the weakest forsaken, we can say the Semirhage is stronger then her and therefore stronger then Nyn. As to your other senseless argument in which you say Nyn is the best healer, in what hidden crevice in the darkest depths of your anal cavity did you pull that from? She has great TALENT, thats all, there are numerouse others who have much greater skill.<br /><br />Third point: Vashti's interconnectedness of the Flinn and ring ter'angreal, (and portal stones, if you recall when Rand used one in tGH he also sees varients of the future). Though Vashti did get some facts wrong, I agree with it. There must be a place where the future threads of the wheel can be seen, a place the Rings go to and the Flinn read from. Because of Rands Portal Stone use, I submit that this place is sorta between worlds, its the air between the jellybeans in a jar. (the jellybeans being the worlds for you slower types, *cough* Columbo *cough<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />You can see into the other worlds, which are variations of the &quot;main&quot; world anyway.<br /><br />I realize by hitting the submit button I open myself up to the childish prattlings of those that will go unnamed. I just thought I'd lend a hand to those that were actually trying to facilitate disscussion until put on the defensive and forced to retaliate.   <br /><br />


created: 2002-04-02 10:40:12
subject: <b>Thank you Bastian</b>
body:
for helping out here. In fact you've said some of the things I will, please bare with me if I repeat. And I also have no idea why people act the way they do, I'd be quite happy to have this argument without the...atmosphere that seems to arise.<br /><br />&quot;Yeah, OK. Lanfear, the cavewoman that she is didn't see it? Jeez man! Pull your head out from between your cheeks! That would mean that the strongest AS of this age are less than half as powerful as Lanfear was? You're thinking like an AS. The Forsaken are not gods, only mortals. Get it straight.&quot;<br /><br />I'm sorry, but you don't even known basic facts of the series. I'm not guessing that Alivia had an angreal. She DID have an angreal. We see her get it off Nynaeve right before the battle.<br /><br />Moghedien is the weakest of the Forskaen in the power. Nynaeve and she have battled. They were evenly matched. Therefore semirhage is stornger.<br /><br />&quot;Take Asmodean for example. In this Age we have seen 4 (or mabye 5) people that are as strong or stronger than he was. We have Rand, Logain, Taim, Narishma and (mabye) Flinn.&quot;<br /><br />I don't know how strong Narishma will end up, no one does, but he and Flinn are MILES off Asmodeon's strength. Asmodeon was equal strength to Rand at the end of TSR. We have never seen Logain's power judged, but by all accounts he may well be as powerful as Taim. As Taim is nearly as strong as Rand, to the point where they'd need to battle to see who is more powerful, I would say that they might be equal to Asmodeon.<br /><br />There's no point arguing that point as you've gone off at a tandent assuming that I was basing Alivia and Nynaeve's strength on the fact that they weren't born in the AoL.<br /><br />&quot;If I'm not mistaken, Elayne remarks that what Nyn was doing to heal was like 'knitting a sweater in each hand, one with each foot, blindfolded. Then it just got too coplex to follow.' Not an exact quote, but if you don't remember it, just ask and I'll look it up. That is not exactly easy to do, considering Elayne doesnt think that she can even FOLLOW the weaves, and she's supposed to be the strongest in 1000 years!&quot;<br /><br />So? You think strength in the power has anything to do with whether you can follow weaves well or not? Elayne has little to no talent with Healing, that's why she can't follow it.<br /><br />&quot;So, she weaves differently from Nyn. Big Deal. Nyn doesnt say that it's BETTER, just different.&quot;<br /><br />If you refuse to see that Nynaeve's and Sumeko's comments clearly indicate that Sumeko is a better Healer, I don't know how I can convince you.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and BTW; Sumeko is about 300 years old. Nynaeve is about 26. Sumeko has been trained by the Tower/Kinswomen. Total time spent in the Tower for Nynaeve: about 3 months.&quot;<br /><br />So? That's totally irrelevant. The point is not how good they will be eventually, but how much better Semirhage is right now than Nynaeve was when she Healed Logain.<br /><br />&quot;What about Sumeko's experience with healing stilling? Yeah, that was GREAT.&quot;<br /><br />What are you going on about? Does it look like I'm arguing who's more innovative? If I create a new move in soccer, does that make me a better player than Pele? Sumeko has only been brought up to show that someone even from modern times, where Healing is nothing compared to the AoL, is better than Nynaeve.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and what about when she calls Nyn's weaves sloppy? I take that to mean that she sees tha traditional AS method as lesser than her own but that isn't proven. After all, Sumeko lost a woman who was attacked by the Gholam.&quot; <br /><br />So? Soemthimes they just can't be saved. Your right, it isn't proven, but given the fact that Nynaeve has stared in astonishment at Sumeko's weaves and didn't have a go at her when she was told her weaves were clumsy, it seems highly likely that Sumeko's way is better.<br /><br />&quot;Nyn has NEVER lost anyone.&quot;<br /><br />Ermm, what does that have to do with her ability to Heal?<br /> <br />&quot;Self taught? What do you call the Kinswomen? Didn't she spend time in the Tower?&quot;<br /><br />Yeees...what's your point? She is self taught, if she wasn't self taught half the Yellow sisters in the Tower would be calling Nynaeve's weaves clumsy as they would ahve been taught that way too, rather than cooing over everything she does. In fact she even says that she carried on learning after she left the Tower. her basis may be there, but she has gone way beyond that.


created: 2002-04-02 13:35:55
subject: <b>Is Bastion TiaB's other screen name?</b>
body:
Only 1 can be THAT... simple. <br /><br />&quot;The first minut, utterly meaningless point I will argue just for the sake of arguing, is how you figure Taim, Logain, Narishma, and Flinn are stronger then Asmodean. If you where to read tSR, at the very end, you will find rand haveing a very difficult time defeating Asmo.&quot; Actually, Rand had a difficult time defeating him bacause they were both accessing the Chodean Kal. With that kind of Power running through them, Rand isn't a 10 strength, he's a 1,000,000 strength. At that point Asmo being a 999.998 doesnt really count for much, see where I'm going? Next, I'll quote LoC for you. Page 92 Hardcover: &quot;'How strong are you?' Rand broke in. 'Seize Saidin. Do it. As much as you can hold.' For a moment Taim only looked at him expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow such as womencould see around another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of Saidin to devistate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see.IT WAS NOT MUCH SHORT OF WHAT RAND HIMSELF COULD HOLD, UNAIDED. But then, THE MAN COULD BE HOLDING BACK. THERE WAS NO SENSE OF STRAINAND HE MIGHT NOT WANT TO SHOW HIS FULL STRENGTH TO RAND; how could he know how Rand might react?&quot; That was one of the main arguments for Taimandred; that he was just less in the power than Rand. It was likened to Demandred and his being JUST LESS than LTT. (look it up in the Guide). Since Demandred was so close to LTT, and Taim is so close to Rand, unless you're going to tell me that Asmo was more powerful then Demendred (at which point I will ignore you forever, big loss) I think that Taim is more powerful than Asmo. Also, my PoD and WH are out on loan, but isnt Logain of a power with Taim? Doesnt someone remark this when they discuss the factions in PoD? If so, and I'm not crazy, then we see that Logain is of a power with Taim, or perhaps slightly less. Say... like Asmo. That's two. As well, I thought that Rand remerks something about Narishma after he retrieves Callandor about how powerful he would be when he reached his potential. If RAND remarks this, he must be very powerful indeed.<br /><br />&quot;Second point, where did Nyn work Moggy? Once again, if you were to read tSR, instead of spending you time here pulling senseless arguments out of your a$$, you will find Nyn in a deadlock with Moggy, only beating her with a little physical distraction. It being generally accepted that Moggy is the weakest forsaken, we can say the Semirhage is stronger then her and therefore stronger then Nyn. As to your other senseless argument in which you say Nyn is the best healer, in what hidden crevice in the darkest depths of your anal cavity did you pull that from? She has great TALENT, thats all, there are numerouse others who have much greater skill.&quot; That is a good point, and well taken. If Nynaeve was, say... 400 years old like Moggy is, then hey! Mabye it would have been quite different. You know what? If I could travel back in time right now and fight Mike Tyson when he was 12, I'd kick his @$$. No question about it right? Well, what if a 12 year old kid kicked Tyson's @$$ now? THAT would be like Nyn vs. Moggy. Nynaeve is 26. Moggy is 400. Thanks.<br /><br />&quot;Third point: Vashti's interconnectedness of the Flinn and ring ter'angreal, (and portal stones, if you recall when Rand used one in tGH he also sees varients of the future). Though Vashti did get some facts wrong, I agree with it. There must be a place where the future threads of the wheel can be seen, a place the Rings go to and the Flinn read from. Because of Rands Portal Stone use, I submit that this place is sorta between worlds, its the air between the jellybeans in a jar. (the jellybeans being the worlds for you slower types, *cough* Columbo *coughYou can see into the other worlds, which are variations of the &quot;main&quot; world anyway.&quot; My friend, this is a point that I'm sure you'll be kicking yourself for after I say this, but I have to say it nonetheless. The finns that tell the future are in Tear's doorway. The ones in Rhudian are the ones who take a price to GRANT WISHES or GIVE GIFTS. Mat's price was his life. You see, you just got mixed up, that's all. They arent the same Finns. A MAJOR point there. <br /><br />&quot;I realize by hitting the submit button I open myself up to the childish prattlings of those that will go unnamed. I just thought I'd lend a hand to those that were actually trying to facilitate disscussion until put on the defensive and forced to retaliate.&quot; If someone doesn't know what they're talking about, then don't post! Simple as that. My stuff, as well as Columbo's, has been cold, hard facts. Alot of the other stuff has been speculation and supposition. If someone wants to argue with the facts, e-mail Jordan and argue with him. It's in the books, just like the Taim/Logain thing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 13:51:15
subject: <b>How did we got HERE after a Tower of Genji theory?</b>
body:
Oh well. <br /><br />&quot;I don't know how strong Narishma will end up, no one does, but he and Flinn are MILES off Asmodeon's strength. Asmodeon was equal strength to Rand at the end of TSR. We have never seen Logain's power judged, but by all accounts he may well be as powerful as Taim. As Taim is nearly as strong as Rand, to the point where they'd need to battle to see who is more powerful, I would say that they might be equal to Asmodeon.&quot; Why? Read my above post. Are you saying that Asmo is as powerful as Demandred? Like I said before, the Forsaken arent the Forsaken because they were THE most powerful They were 13 OF the most powerful. They are the Forsaken because they survived the other dreadlords' schemes better than the others. Therefore they were 'Chosen'. Asmo was NOT as powerful as Taim or Logain. As for Narishma, mabye not now. But like I said, when their full potential is reached they can be compared. That's what I'm going by. After all, I COULD kick a 12 year old Tyson's Arse.<br /><br />&quot;So? You think strength in the power has anything to do with whether you can follow weaves well or not? Elayne has little to no talent with Healing, that's why she can't follow it.&quot; A talent has nothing to do with if you can follow it or not. It's if you have an in-born ability. I never said that Elayne COULD heal like Nyn. I said that if she can't even FOLLOW the weaves, they must be quite complex and therefore Nyn must be pretty darn good at it. In fact, the Yellow sisters were all amazed at Nyn's abilities BEFORE she Healed the stillings. In that case, she must be pretty good. Give this point up; you can't win it. <br /><br />&quot;If you refuse to see that Nynaeve's and Sumeko's comments clearly indicate that Sumeko is a better Healer, I don't know how I can convince you.&quot; If you can explain why Different equals better, I'll concede the point. If someone is right, they're right and I won't argue. I just don't think that different is better, that's all.<br /><br />&quot;If I create a new move in soccer, does that make me a better player than Pele?&quot; LOL! LMAO! You must have kicked yourself as soon as you wrote this. If Sumeko invents a new way with the weaves, does that make here better than Nynaeve? LOL! You've GOT TO give me this point now.<br /><br />&quot;Ermm, what does that have to do with her ability to Heal?&quot; If one can't measure one's healing skill by how many people near death they've lost/saved, then how can we measure them?<br /><br />This was your quote: &quot;So a self taught Wise Woman is better than Nynaeve in these days.&quot; My point was that she was not neccisarily self taught. She had the Kin. Oh, and Nyn was self taught, too. Well, 2 months in the tower doesnt really count in my book, anyway. Sumeko has had more formal training than Nyn, so your point about a 'self taught wise woman' (who said that the AS were ALWAYS better? The kin are not savages.) is void. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 15:14:20
subject: <b>Thanks to all of you.....</b>
body:
I have a headache.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />     It has been like reading the WoT version of <i> Roshamon </i> (sp).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 16:18:53
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I'm not Bastian, if you don't believe me then get someone at the site to trace my IP and his or something, I dunno if that's possible, I'm not technically minded.<br /><br />Oh well. <br /><br />&quot;Why? Read my above post. Are you saying that Asmo is as powerful as Demandred?&quot;<br /><br />I don't see where you've come up with the idea that Rand and Demandred are the same strength, unless you think Rand has reached his max potential of course. As to Asmodeon being equal strength to Rand at the end of TSR, it's true. In fact, amazingly, they were absolutely equal, as just the slightest draw of strength from Rand's other angreal helped push his strength the tiniest amount to win.<br /><br />&quot;Like I said before, the Forsaken arent the Forsaken because they were THE most powerful They were 13 OF the most powerful. They are the Forsaken because they survived the other dreadlords' schemes better than the others. Therefore they were 'Chosen'. Asmo was NOT as powerful as Taim or Logain. As for Narishma, mabye not now. But like I said, when their full potential is reached they can be compared. That's what I'm going by. After all, I COULD kick a 12 year old Tyson's Arse.&quot;<br /><br />Why are you still arguing this point? I've already said that I don't think that the Forsaken are far and away the best channelers ever, that was an assumption of yours!<br /><br />&quot;A talent has nothing to do with if you can follow it or not. It's if you have an in-born ability.&quot;<br /><br />Yes and part of that in-born ability will be that they're able to follow complex Healing flows! After all, the yellows are beginning to copy Nynaeve's ways, yet they're all less powerful than Elayne, but somehow they can follow Nynaeve's flows!<br /><br />&quot;I never said that Elayne COULD heal like Nyn. I said that if she can't even FOLLOW the weaves, they must be quite complex and therefore Nyn must be pretty darn good at it. In fact, the Yellow sisters were all amazed at Nyn's abilities BEFORE she Healed the stillings. In that case, she must be pretty good. Give this point up; you can't win it.&quot;<br /><br />What point?! I've never denied that Nynaeve is a fantastic Healer! You're just making up arguments now! All I've pointed out is that other than Semirhage there are superior Healers to her!<br /><br />&quot;If you can explain why Different equals better, I'll concede the point. If someone is right, they're right and I won't argue. I just don't think that different is better, that's all.&quot;<br /><br />But the way it's phrased! It all indicates that Sumeko's ways are better! Why isnt she staring at Nynaeve's weave's in amazement? Why isn't Nynaeve criticising Sumeko's weaves as clumsy?<br /><br />&quot;LOL! LMAO! You must have kicked yourself as soon as you wrote this. If Sumeko invents a new way with the weaves, does that make here better than Nynaeve? LOL! You've GOT TO give me this point now.&quot;<br /><br />No, once again refer to the above answer. You're reading it as different. I'm reading it as better.<br /><br />&quot;If one can't measure one's healing skill by how many people near death they've lost/saved, then how can we measure them?&quot;<br /><br />Sorry, I read that wrong, I thought you said she'd never lost TO anyone. You obviously have to take into account how far gone the people are before they try and Heal them. Sumeko was just unlucky enough to get someone who was going to die whatever she did. She and Nynaeve could easily have been the other way round.<br /><br />&quot;My point was that she was not neccisarily self taught. She had the Kin.&quot;<br /><br />Do the Kin actually teach? I'm trying to remember. Anyway, even if they did, I think Sumeko has gone beyond any of the other Kin, unless there are people Jordan hasn't revealed.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, and Nyn was self taught, too. Well, 2 months in the tower doesnt really count in my book, anyway. Sumeko has had more formal training than Nyn&quot;<br /><br />That's true, but my point wasn't really Sumeko v Nynaeve but rather that these people are teaching themselves and are still better than any who are taught. Think how much better it must have been in the AoL!<br /><br />By the way, your last post was much more pleasent to argue with you over. It was just more civil and makes coming to this site much more fun for me.


created: 2002-04-02 18:53:30
subject: <b>Bastian not TiaB</b>
body:
For the first time I have to disagree with GG.  Bastian is definaltley not TiaB.  TiaB is far more in touch than Bastian.  TiaB also doesn't accuse someone of &quot; childish prattlings&quot; only to then submit childish prattlings.<br /><br />Bastian please:<br /><br />Don't try to add to the series or make things up to prove a point.  If you have a opinion on something, do some research and post the book and page #'s.  Don't add or make things up.<br /><br />Read the books.  Some have read the series more than once,  you might fit in that category.  Don't listen to the tapes as GG already pointed out that the tapes are abridged.<br /><br />In defence of comments posted on this page.  I agree some of the comments posted (like yours) are garbage and only take away from the good ideas spawned by serious debating.  Sometimes to get others thinking you have to challenge them in a way that will wake them up.  The results are people spending more time thinking and improved product.  I think that everyone involved besides Vashti will agree.  <br /><br />Bastian lets use you as an example.  You said you would make a fool out of GG because he had made a fool out of others.  The end result was GG making you wish you hadn't hit the submit button after all.  Next time before you hit the submit button do some research to back up your claims.<br /><br />Also note that you haven't lended a hand you've only hurt those you thought to help.  You've proven effectivley that you don't know WOT.  Please leave it to those that do. PLEASE! <br /><br />Thank you GG and TiaB for providing helpful stuff.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 22:27:22
subject:
<b>No problem Columbo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Three: Well, to tell you the truth, I don't think that there's anything left to talk about here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> That's too bad cause it was fun while it lasted. We have answered each other's questions for 86 posts now (a record, If I'm thinking correctly.) and now... well I think that we pretty much either agree on the points or just look at things differently (ie Sumeko is better than Nynaeve). <br /><br />Like I said, things are just getting stale now as we come to a stalemate on the discussion. It was fun while it lasted (except for some people who like to stick their noses in with absolutley no knowledge of what they're talking about) but it's time to pack it up. <br /><br />I can't wait until the next discussable theory to start it all over again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&quot;I'll bet there's treasure inside.&quot;<br />-Mat<br /><br />Columbo, thanks for the back up and let's get to work on those page numbers on Thom so that WE can have a turn at defending a theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Vashti: Have you decided on the bet? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Bastion: Well, I don't know you never mind want to talk to you, but thanks for your input, even if you were DOA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />See you guys at the next stop.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 02:16:49
subject: <b>okay</b>
body:
Nyn's fight with moggy was pure strength in the power. There were no complex weaves that would give moggy an advantage. I am sure you could beat up a 12 year old Tyson GG, but that analogie does not fit here. Moggy has much more skill and experience with the power, buy skill and experience does not translate into strength. As I don't have tSR I can't give a page number, but the fight is somewhere in the back. Nyn tries to shield Moggy while Moggy tries to shield Nyn, it's a arm wrestling match, pure strength in the power where Moggies greater skill plays no role. <br /><br />I'll give you taim and Logain as maybe, possibly being equal to Asmo. But not Flinn or Narishma.<br /><br />What makes you think the Flinns live in two different places? There are enough similarities between the two to make me think they do. The crazy halls, rooms, and so forth. There are superficial differences, but they're just that,m superficial. They share the same basic characteristics.<br /><br />Columbo, I'll admit the hypocrisy of my above post, but I don't agree with this veiw you seem to hold that says by being an asshole you get people thinking. What you get, as shown beautifully on this blackboard, is people getting angry and submitting some silly stuff, and NOT thinking their posts through. I don't think acting like an a$$hole ever helps anything, but if you want to keep acting like an a$$hole you can, I'll just have to ignore you.<br /><br />You see, I have subdued my urge to write cheap insults that breed nothing but more chep insults. I hope the rest of you can to.


created: 2002-04-03 11:54:47
subject: <b>Bastion</b>
body:
I thought that everyone here made it clear that this was over, but just to give closure, I'll counter you one last time. <br /><br />Nyn vs. Moggy; we were talking about two different things. I was talking power as in peak preformance, you were talking right now. I was saying let's go 1 on 1 at the peaks of their carrers. After all, when saying 'Who's the best of all time', one compares two people at the height of their carrerrs. Their peak. I was doing the same. We were just on different pages.<br /><br />I'm glad to see that you can concede a point when you see the facts. I've been trying to do the same thing and it just makes it more fun when everyone plays fair. Oh, and for the record, there was a space of just less than a year (10 months our time) between tSR and LoC. That's a LONG time for Rand to gain in power.<br /><br />As for the Finn, my point was that there are two different kinds, not that they werent both in the same basic area. I said that they did different things. The ones in Tear told the future. I never debated that. The ones in Rhiudean, where Moi went with Lanfear, grant wishes but extract a price. My point was that they did different things.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 13:14:19
subject: <b>Bastian</b>
body:
You haven't subdued your urge to write cheap insults.  All you've done is take it to the next level ( Name calling) haven't you Bastian?  <br /><br />To respond to your remark regarding nothing accomplished here I'd have to disagree.  I believe alot has been accomplished.  Some of us still don't see eye to eye on everything but that never happens.  What I'm looking for is answers to questions like everyone else that visits this site.  I love the series and like everyone else I'm looking for answers.  Trying to solve the unsolved.<br /><br />I'm passionate about the books and was only looking to add some humour, make it funny and entertaining for others.  You yourself admitted that you enyoyed reading some of the comments.  If your not interested in giving someone  the needle Bastian, then don't.  If you don't want to respond to me then don't.  But please don't participate in the fun and then point your finger at me.<br /><br />To anyone that was involved in this long debate and was insulted my apologies to you.  I was only looking to liven things up and I think I managed to accomplish this.  In the future don't take it personally.  Let go and have a little fun.  Also Bastian don't start name calling.  You want to give someone the needle thats fine.<br /><br />My apology even includes you Vashti!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 17:20:36
subject: <b>For the record</b>
body:
I wans't calling you an a$$hole. I was just saying that I don't think &quot;needling&quot; helps anything. It just gets poeple on the defensive, as shown in this post, and does not facilitate open discussion. What you get is misunderstanding, as there is ample example here. Next time I won't get involved, as I have proven here that I suck at wordplay. That I became involved in the way I did is a strike against me and I apologize for perpetuating the whole thing.


created: 2002-04-04 13:53:30
subject: <b>Bastian</b>
body:
NO hard feelings I hope?<br /><br />See you at the next stop.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 17:38:17
subject: <b>wow, great theory!</b>
body:
nice catch with the egwene in the courage chapter. i never thought if it!<br /><br />i think this is one of the better thought out / explained theories. (unfortunately the messages on the board doesn't seem to be well though out at all)<br /><br />as far as the saving moraine theories, this is really the only one i can give a thumbs up.


created: 2002-04-30 00:35:01
subject: <b>RE: Courage to strengthen...</b>
body:
I hadn't thot of this before, but Mat's prophecy from the Snakes was that he would lose half the light of the world to save the world.  Obviously he's going to sacrifice one of his eyes to 'save the world'. <br />Now to Min's viewings regarding Moiraine.  It is more than implied that Moiraine is connected somehow to Rand's success or failure at the Last Battle.  If she's there, he'll win.  <br />I'm thinking that Mat will be one of the ones to rescue Moiraine, and that the people who go to rescue her will be allowed to have her on the condition that one of them sacrifice something of themselves to get her back.  Mat's eye.  To save the world.  Because Moiraine HAS to be at the Last Battle or Rand will lose.<br />This fits with Egwene's vision of seeing him with blood dripping down his face WHILE Thom pulls Moiraine's stone out of a fire. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 09:26:36
subject: <b>Almost right</b>
body:
I agree with the part about Perrin and Thom, but you mixed the two parts of Mat and Egwene.  Egwene out of anyone being Aes Sedai would be the one with fire to bind.  While with Mat, I don't care what anyone says running into the Stone of Tear crawling with Aiel, the garrison, Black Ajah, and a Forsaken with only the protection of his wits and a long stick counts as being the most courageous of all the WOT characters, and possibly more insane than Rand will ever be.


created: 2002-06-04 13:44:39
subject: <b>Some extra thoughts....</b>
body:
I'm reading all of this and loving the analysis, but a few points I haven't seen yet (no, I have not read all yet, just found this site and there are almost 100 in this thread):   <br /><br />1. Could Egwene be the &quot;iron to bind&quot; since she has a notable, particular affinity for metal (discovered when she was a damne)?<br /><br />2. Rand can play the flute too (music)...<br /><br />3. Mat, alot seem to think, is to be fire (through Aludra) - I agree and have one more bit - Mat is a good juggler, which can be dazzling... (of course, Rand could channel fire).  <br /><br />Finally, Didn't Mat get away with a steel knife?<br /><br />I apologize if these are up there somewhere, don't usually spout off w/o reading all posts but I'd forget these.


created: 2002-06-20 04:36:56
subject: <b>Good god...</b>
body:
Hats off to GG and Columbo. That was quite the show. You whooped everyone's arse, and how many people were arguing with you? Vashti... Bastian... Three in a Boat... and anyone who didn't like your display of flames and burns. I was laughing my a$$ off. Thank you. And Vashti... how can you ever show your face again? <br /><br />Wanna see my Vashti, Bastian, and 3iaB immitations?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 20:43:05
subject: <b>OOH! I like it!</b>
body:
This is a good and well-researched theory. Not only that, it has events happen in a quite favorable way. However, do you think that the fire in Egwene's dream that Thom reaches into could have anything to do with your theory, perhaps to say that maybe Thom might have two roles? On the other hand, it could just symbolize danger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="goldenrod">Lady Alrae of House Carillon</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="maroon">Snooty Tairen Noble Extraordinaire</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /> AKA <b><font color="red">Paine</font></b> <img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><b>I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All Hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 11:49:36
subject: <b>I got the hundredth comment!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Looking back over this, it was an amazing debate. Best ever WoT one at this site, I would say.<br /><br />Anyway, to all the warriors here, good one. Now lets get back at each other's throats with a new theory!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-01 17:35:43
subject: <b>Apparently, I`m #101</b>
body:
Don`t know if anyone of the participants will get back to this post, but I liked it, Three.<br /><br />BTW, Avienda, Moiraine, and the Wise One`s {for their lst testing} go thru the Rings, similar to the WT Accepted tests. The Chiefs go thru the Columns only once to receive the Dragon and the women go thru the Columns to become Wise Ones.<br /><br />Matrimony Cauthon: the last line of your postings are offensive. Hope you never have to be involved with the Special Olympics or the participants.  If you have gotten rid of that line already- Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-18 02:30:31
subject: <b>Who's got the phat beats, and who the fire?</b>
body:
Perhaps we've got Mat and Thom backwards as to who represents what in the chant of the Snakes and Foxes.<br /><br />The vision shows Thom pulling Moiraine's jewel out of a fire.  FIRE!  Thom is the fire!  Now if we're assuming Mat is also going to be in on the rescue, then that leaves him with the music.  But what's his connection to music anyway?  Well, he DID learn a bit of the flute from Thom, but he's CONSTANTLY humming and singing songs.  Think about it.


created: 2002-03-26 23:48:11
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
this is a great theory and would certainly explain why Mat's medallion would hurt the gholam.  They kind of remind me of the thing from Terminator 2...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 01:15:30
subject: <b>What about...</b>
body:
If the medallion can hurt the Gholam, what could kill it? I'm of a mind that attemting to sever the Gholam itself may just kill it. But maybe that would not affect it since it is still the OP. Maybe there is a ter'angreal out there that was made exclusively for severing. That might work.


created: 2002-03-27 03:27:52
subject: <b>Further thoughts</b>
body:
Well, if a gholam is made of the One Power, like I stated in my theory, it wouldn't survive in a stedding at all. That could be a way to kill it. As far as severing goes, I'm not sure. Severing cuts off a person from USING the One Power. Since the gholam doesn't USE the One Power, it is made of it, what would be there to sever? And Severing is like a cutting action. Since a gholam is not made the same internally as a human, a person trying to sever the gholam wouldn't know what to cut.<br /><br />Here are some further thoughts, and a bit of correction. I stated that perhaps the gholam is not immune to the True Power, and that is how Moridin controls his gholam. It is stated in the books, PoD to be exact, that the gholam had always been compelled to do whatever it had been ordered to do. Thus, it may indeed be immune to the True Power, which is why all the Forsaken are uneasy around gholam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />Squall Thrawn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Singer of the Song that need never be Sung<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />An all-around kewl guy who has a &quot;gay&quot; old time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><i>Examine all obstacles carefully. With ingenuity, they may be turned into levers.</i> -Grand Admiral Thrawn</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 08:39:11
subject: <b>It would have to be more then just of the One Power</b>
body:
For one, it likes to feed on flesh and blood, as we see at the end of Chapter 2, Unweaving, in The Path of Daggers. Where it states that &quot;Fresh Blood, hot blood, was a necessity&quot; at it eats the remains of Madic, a DF who Moridin melted after watching Avi unweave a gateway. <br /><br />Another point worth mentioning, is that the gholam is starting to take on a mind of it's own. Also stated in the last few paragraphs of this chapter, from the gholam's POV, we see that it has a &quot;concept of not being constrained&quot; or NOT being compelled to obey one or another human. It has orders to kill both Mat and the Nyn and Elayne, but has to make a decision for itself on who to peruse, as the group splits up. Maybe this is how Machin Shin and Mashadar got started, constructs of the One Power, or even the True Power, that started taking on a life of their own? That&#8217;s probably stuff for a different theory though...<br /><br />Another thing that I found interesting, is that also in that POV from the Gholam in Chap 2, Book 8, we see that the &quot;Moment of death, when it felt the ability to channel vanish along with life, produced ecstasy.&quot; Why would a creature find pleasure to the point of ecstasy in killing that which it is created of (or at least the ability to produce what it is made of)?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 08:45:28
subject: <b>Whoops, forgot to mention this...</b>
body:
Also, I think that the ability of Mat's medallion to hurt the gholam, is similar to how Rand cleansed the taint. When Rand cleansed the taint, He took one evil, that seemed to repel another evil, and forced them on each other. I heard Jordan describe how this worked once, and maybe I will try to find it. At any rate, it is the concept that is the reverse of opposite&#8217;s attracting, that is, that same polarity&#8217;s repel. <br /><br />So, you have Mat's medallion, which can &#8220;absorb&#8221; the One power, and a critter, the Gholam, that can &#8220;absorb&#8221; the One Power, when the two things are touched together, they &#8220;repel&#8221; one another. Of course, this should also mean that the gholam should hurt the medallion in some way too. Maybe not though, it might not hurt the medallion any more then a regular person hurts steal when they meet.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 11:40:08
subject: <b>Can't remeber it all that well but..</b>
body:
I believe that in one of the books someone said something about how there were other gholams but now very few if none remain, then mat met his little friend(the gholam he attacked). So if there were other gholams and they are now gone then there is a way to kill them. And as far as them being a made of the OP is believable except LTT keeps poping into my mind. He drew too much of the OP and created a mountain would a whole being of the OP not be dangerous enough just to be in the area of it? Mat could kill the thing easliy just put the medallion around his neck and watch him die, or as was stated above, get him to a stedding, which you'd probably have to lead him through a waygate cause only an idiot would go to a stedding knowing they are going to die as soon as they get there.


created: 2002-03-27 12:19:26
subject: <b>If the Gholam Is made of the OP</b>
body:
then why does it need blood? <br /><br />That's my only question: I like this theory!<br /><br />Two other interesting Questions about the gholam:<br />#1: If you cut a limb off, what would happen? Would it grow a new one? Would the limb just come back to the body  a la T-1000?<br />#2: What would happen to it if cut by Fain's dagger? This is how I see the Gholam dying. Don't ask me why, but I just see Mat as having too much stuff to do before the end without hunting/killing a Gholam.<br /><br />Oh, and Moridin does not command the Gholam since he does not acknowledge it in book 8. It was Sammael who commanded it since he found the stasis box. I thought that was obvious. *shrugs shoulders* BTW, now that Sammael is dead, I guess the Gholam does have it's own free will. Interesting...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 13:11:02
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
One slight error, Elayne remarks about how her flows dissipated when whe channeled at it; the gholam did not absorb the flows.<br /><br />Another point is that the gholam we have seen can think and reason, and I just question whether the A.S. from the AoL could create artificial intellegence.<br /><br />As far as the medallion is concerned, we have no proof that it hurt the gholam because it was a ter'angreal, or because it was silver. It certainly would be easier to the gholam kill if silver hurts it, but maybe too easy. And you would think it may have inadvertantly touched silver at some point previous. &quot;The gholam reached inside into his victim, searching for the stomach on which is wished to feed. A silver coin fell from the mans pocket, landing on the gholams arm. The gholam screamed in agony at the small hole the coin bore through its arm.&quot;<br /><br />I suspect before TG that Elayne will have a chance to learn how to make this particular t.a. which will give the good guys one big advantage over the new dreadlords. But thats another subject altogether.<br /><br />My question is, how so you get a gholam to go to a stedding (or Far Madding) so it will die? Ask nicely?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 13:41:39
subject: <b>The One Power?</b>
body:
Do you mean the pure One Power?<br />Or something created by using both halves? Or just one?<br /><br />The former I doubt because no human has ever been able to use the pure OP (though Mierin and Beidomon tried, in the AoL) and the gholam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /> were created by people (Aginor?).<br /><br />The gholam seen in Ebou Dar has only tracked wielders of <i>saidar</i> so far (I think), and that's the only half of the OP Mat's medallion is known to affect (Rahvin's lightning wasn't a flow of power, so it might not work on <i>saidin</i>). <br /><br />So is the Ebou Dar gholam made of only <i>saidar</i>? Is that's why it's shaped like a man?<br /><br />I don't know where I'm going with this, but answers to these questions might make this theory more palatable to me.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-27 13:42:27
subject: <b>Push it into a Stedding</b>
body:
We know that in a stedding, the One Power is cut off.  Therefore, if you can somehow push a gholam into a stedding, wouldn't it just dissolve into nothingness?  Or, in the alternative, might it not become vulnerable and subject to being killed?  It seems to me that it's your best bet with a gholam, unless Mat can get more foxhead medallions out of the Finn when he goes in there to get Moiraine...funny how these posts connect with one another...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 13:51:32
subject: <b>About the blood thing...</b>
body:
Great theory!<br /><br />Some of you have been suggesting that the gholam can't be made of the OP because it needs to feed on blood.  Well, why do we need to drink water when we are made of mostly carbon, huh?  And, if the AoL was, in fact, an age or two after our age, as some have suggested in the 'WoT World is our world' theory, they would have had a VERY good idea of how to make artificial intelligence.  Besides, when you get down to it, all life is like AI, albeit quite advanced.  Many living things were created in the Aol, like Avendesora, the Nym (sp?), and who knows what else.  It is not difficult at all to see the gholam was being made entirely of the OP.


created: 2002-03-27 13:59:07
subject: <b>i was thinking that too</b>
body:
they are related theories but have nothing to do with one another...<br /><br />anyhoo, matts medallion may not be a terangreal, jordan emphisizes it too much, like elyane thpough i have to expamine it, it MUST be a TA to stop the power&quot;(paraphrase)<br />if he is pointing out that she is thinking it i dont thinkit will be a TA<br /><br />didnt someone ask jordan what would happen if a golam ended up in a stedding and he said RAFO? im pretty sure this is in one of the interviews posted in this site<br /><br />so if its RAFO, shouldn't it happen sometime in the books?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 14:13:18
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
... if your theory is correct, shouldnt our heroes be able too... erh... dont remember the word... untie the weaves of the gholam... Ah well... just a thought =)


created: 2002-03-27 14:24:18
subject: <b>Mat's Medallion works with Sadin...</b>
body:
When he meets Halima in the Salidar camp, Halmia (Balthamel, am male channeler) channels at him, and his medallion goes cold. This is in chap 44 of tLoC.<br /><br />I guess this brings up some points about the nature of the medallion. We know that it can't stop a shoe hurled with the power; I suppose it can't stop a lightning bolt or fireball either... Or else how did Mat die from Rahvin bolts?<br /><br />About the medallion absorbing the flows, maybe that's not the right word. But both a gholam and the medallion act in much the same way when channeled against. I can't believe this is coincidence. When one touches the other, it hurts the gholam, why else would it do this if it didn't act in a repelling kind of way, much like two like magnets work? <br /><br />About the blood bit. If the gholam was pure One Power, what is it? A tied off weave? Does it's anatomy some how turn blood and flesh into the One Power so it can sustain itself, like how we breathe and eat? <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 16:43:56
subject: <b>more comments</b>
body:
Great theory, and it explains a lot.  I don't think that Matt's medallion and the gholam are made of similar materials.  If they were made of the same stuff, Matt's medallion would have melted, but it just felt like the normal cool of silver.  Flows of the one power melt away when they come near the medallion or near the gholam; they both act as some kind of shield for the one power.   The gholam reminds me of a vampire--they both need fresh human blood to survive, and an object can burn them.  (For a vampire, it's a cross; for the gholam it's the medallion.)  For vampires, a cross burns them because it's a evil demon, and the cross is a representation of goodness and purity.  So maybe Matt's medallion is the gholam's &quot;cross&quot;.  (And we know that RJ likes to bring in myths to the books.)  And if you bury a vampire with a cross over the grave, it won't be able to escape from the grave.  So maybe if they can find some way to lock the gholum up and put something on it made of the medallion's material, the gholum won't be able to escape.  (Maybe trap it in a stedding?)  <br /><br />Another random thought--Birgitte said a while ago to Perrin in TAR that the Snakes and Foxes weren't evil like the DO, but so different from humans that they might as well be.  And they hate anything to do with the DO.  So the medallion and the gholam are two things that have the same function, but do it in very different ways.  Since they Snakes and Foxes hate the DO so much, it makes sense that they'd know how to make a weapon against any dark creature.  <br /><br />And maybe this is why iron can be used to bind the Snakes and Foxes; maybe iron hurts them the way that Matt's medallion hurts the gholam.  (Hey, the gholum and the snakes/foxes feed off humans--the gholum feeds off human's blood, the snakes/foxes feed off of human's capacity to think.)


created: 2002-03-27 17:12:22
subject: <b>Several Comments</b>
body:
&quot;Moment of death, when it felt the ability to channel vanish along with life, produced ecstasy.&quot; <br />Perhaps when the person died/became a gholam his conction to the true source was <i>modified</i> in such a way that it was redirected into forming a sort of &quot;magnetic&quot; shield of the OP(let's give it a <b>positive</b> charge). When someone channels at it, the <b>positive</b> charge of the offensive weave is <i>repelled</i>.<br />In the case of Mat's medalion(<b>negatively</b> charged), when it came in contact with the gholam the <b>positive</b> and <b>negative</b> charges neutralized, and &quot;electrical&quot; energy passed from the medalion to the Gholam creating an electrical burn.<br /><br />Whew! Now that that's done...<br /><br />As for getting the gholam into a stedding, it's easy. Just get Mat, Elyane and Nynaeve into the steading and the gholam will have no choice but to follow. I do belive that if the Gholam kills his targets he will be completely free now that Sammael is dead, and <b>that</b> is a scary thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Drinking blood: The fact that the Gholam, feeds on blood reminds me of the Vampire: The Masquerade game. the vampires feed on blood to sutain their unlives and to fuel their supernatural abilites. Maybe the Gholam is like this too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 17:39:10
subject: <b>Gholam in a stedding</b>
body:
The gholam in Ebu Dar got scared off by Mat. I don't think it will follow Mat and company people into a stedding, he doesn't want them that bad or else he wouldn't have run away in Ebu Dar. Channelers know when they step into a stedding, and I think gholam would also be able to sense the presence of a stedding and avois one, if in fact, he would die.<br /><br />The only way  can see, is to take Mat, with his medalian swinging around on its cord like in the warehouse, and actually backing the gholum up until it is in the stedding before it is to late to stop itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 20:16:52
subject: <b>I'm pretty sure the True Power wouldn't work ...</b>
body:
... because I remember the gholam saying or thinking that it had never been found something that could hurt it before (before Mat's medallion).  Wish I had my books here; I'd look it up.  So, if it had never been hurt before but knows the difference between the One Power and the True Power, it probably wouldn't work.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 22:13:13
subject: <b>Nothing that could hurt it...</b>
body:
Yeah, I remember that quote as well. I would assume since that thing's been around since the AoL, it would know what a Stedding is. But since it doesn't remember coming across anything that could hurt it before, that kinda shoots that down. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I also remember that the medallion and the Gholam *dissapate* the flow, and do not *absorb* it.<br /><br />All in all, I kinda like the idea of the Gholam being made of pure OP but I really don't think that's the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 02:13:35
subject: <b>Compulsion of Gholam</b>
body:
Sorry to post so late after so much has been said, but it seems to me that Gholam might be compelled by TP (as opposed to OP), which is why the Forsaken are nervous around it. They have no guarantee that the ability to use the TP will be granted them, so Gholam scare them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 11:50:20
subject: <b>Why Gholam needs to drink blood</b>
body:
I like this theory.<br />I believe that the reason the Gholam needs to drink the blood is to give (and keep) the quasi-human form. Otherwise, since the OP is not matter in and of itself, there would be no mass, no form, nothing to tie it to a single form.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 11:52:17
subject: <b>A way to kill or diminish a Gholam</b>
body:
If it is a creature of the OP, how about trying to channel through it the same way you would an angreal? You would then be siphoning the very substance of the gholam, diminishing its power and form....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 15:24:51
subject: <b>Another thought . . . .</b>
body:
If a gholam were made from the One Power, it would consist of both saidar &amp; saidin, correct?<br /><br />And being made of saidin, one would think the taint might have somewhat of a detrimental affect on it.  It obviously didn't do the Ways much good.  But then, perhaps the decay was halted while it was in the stasis box.  Had Rand &amp; Nynaeve not cleansed the taint, maybe we would have seen the gholam start getting sick as a result of it.  But then, it took the Ways some time to show evidence of the taint, and they were made completely of saidin.  I don't know - just rambling now.<br /><br />I suspect if we could determine how the Forsaken control the Gholam, it would answer a lot of our questions.


created: 2002-03-28 15:38:39
subject: <b>Graendal said</b>
body:
I can't remember the book, but I remember reading a Graendal POV regarding Sammaels ter'angreal collection and she wondered if he found a stasis box.  She remarked that she would be hesitant to open one if she found one because she feared a gholam or jumara would jump out.  This leads me to believe that the gholam can be captured and contained (it must have anyway for the last three thousand years) in a man made device.  How does an individual control a gholam anyway if they are immune to the One Power?  It appears to me the Forsaken would be as vulnerable to a gholam as an average Aes Sedai, or else Graendal wouldn't fear something like that.<br /><br />I guess the Gholam is sworn to serve a master (Sammael or otherwise) because it is beholden to its master (genie in a bottle?) for one reason or another.  What that reason could be, I don't know...  It does interest me in how one would control a gholam.  Having in one's possession something (a mindtrap ,e.g.) the gholam can't live without?  True Power perhaps?  That seems to be the cop out answer for anything that we can't adequately explain....


created: 2002-03-28 17:57:06
subject: <b>Control</b>
body:
Graendal also considers that only someone totally crazy could have invented the gholam, so there must be a reason for it. There are really dangerous, but then, if they were easily or safely controlled that wouldn't be much of a worry for the Chosen.  <br /><br />A remote or control mechanism not using the power is a possibility, but likely Graendal would have explicitely worried about not having the means to control a gholam anymore in her POV.<br /><br />I think the True Power is, though convenient, a real possibility this time.  For sure only a crazy person would create a gholam if it can only be controlled by using something as dangerous as the True Power, since it's extremely addictive and is available only if the DO wishes it.<br /><br />Another possibility is that the gholam were Compulsed to obey certain type of orders before getting whatever makes them immune to the One Power.<br /><br />An another interesting tidbit is the fact there were 3 male and 3 female gholam.  Perhaps the key to the way they are controlled lies there.  There is a way for male channelers to make a male gholam obey and the same for the women and the female gholam.  No clue what it could be, though - perhaps there is a code, a certain weave, that &quot;desactivate&quot; the gholam immunity to the OP (a shield that follow the same principles as Mat's medallion?) and allows a channeler to use Compulsion on it. Or they were Compulsed during their construct and afterward you order them with codes that triggers the initial Compulsion without having to use the Power. Initial compulsion would explain why the gholam remembers vaguely being free at some point.<br /><br /><br />Personally, I think the gholam is more akin to Mashadar than anything else in WoT so far. &quot;An old friend, an old enemy&quot; said Aginor about the dagger or more likely, about the taint on it - and Aginor was bounded in SG way before the Trollocs Wars. Why did he said that? I think Aginor might have recognized the evil residue left by the people of Aridhol as a phenomenon he toyed with in the AOL to create the gholam.  As Mat noticed, Mordeth too was able to do tricks (squeezing himself into a tiny hole) similar to the gholam.  Mashadar certainly had the ferocity of the gholam too.   I think Moiraine was able to use wards against Mashadar, though, so the immunity against the OP must come from something else. Could she have done the same to Mordeth before he entered Fain's body? That's RAFO I guess.<br /> <br /><br />


created: 2002-03-29 02:27:59
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Boy, you take a coupla days off and the message board explodes!  I have some catching up to do... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />First of all, I like this theory very much.  The Gholam is a curious and dangerous creature.  To know more of its construction would be helpful.<br /><br />I've prepared some responses to the various Wotmania patrons who've already graced this wonderful theory with some insight:<br /><br />To Green Gaidin:  You asked about the severing of limbs.  If the Gholam is indeed constructed with the OP, then likely each limb would be like a pseudopod of OP, which would dissipate harmlessly if severed.  The arm would then be replaced instantly.  Whether or not severing a limb would diminish a percentage of the Power a Gholam would need to exist is up in the air.<br /><br />To Randwashere:  You mentioned Elayne's flows being severed when she tried to attack the Gholam.  You're on the right track.  I don't think the Gholam &quot;absorbs&quot; the OP exactly, but it may have a shield constructed around it which would negate any use of the OP against it like armor made from the Power.  Mat's medallion works in much the same way, which is why he can't be wrapped up in flows of Air, but can have horse crap thrown through the air at him.  When the two come together (the medallion and the Gholam), the shields momentarily &quot;scrape.&quot;  We have yet to see if Mat's foxhead medallion is also damaged by this contact.<br /><br />To cgilbertmc:  You suggested the Gholam needs sustinace to create mass, else it would not be able to physically touch things, much like a vampric mist or crimson death in good ol' D&amp;D.  Interesting, but I think the need for food is something like when Mat gets healed after he's severed from the dagger, or when anyone receives a good deal of healing from an Aes Sedai.  Mat ate like a horse for days, and needed rest as well, because Healing draws energy from the person being healed.  Perhaps the Gholam needs to &quot;recharge&quot; the OP with actual energy.  Like a car battery, if it gets a jolt now and again (from running the car), it can go on almost indefinitely.<br /><br />To Dom:  You're still the man, Dom, but I'd have to pass on the Compulsion theory.  Even tied flows will dissipate/fall apart eventually without more of the OP fueling them.  Even if these tied flows are maintained in the stasis box, I can't see them lasting through a couple of Ages without them breaking down.  It is possible some sort of protocol is taken during the construction of a Gholam so that the OP which makes up its existence powers the Complusion itself, but that seems a little far-fetched and, quite frankly, out of reach for us to learn anytime soon anyway. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />  Nonetheless, great response! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just some responses to my pals at Wotmania.<br /><br />Braidtugger is back!<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;My other car is Bela!&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-29 10:55:04
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I really like this theory. It makes a good deal of sense. However, I wonder if the gholam weren't originally people that were modified somehow with the Power. Kind of like Grey Men give away their souls. Or what if they are a OP driven type of shadowspawn, not made of the OP themselves. I'm not sure how the finns came to posess Mat's medallion, but even though it dissapates channeling, the ter'angeral had to be MADE by someone using the Power, right? Why not the same with the gholam?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 12:32:02
subject: <b>Gholam have died before</b>
body:
I remember distinctly one of the Forsaken (Graendal, I think) thinking about the Gholam and remembering killing one before.  This limits the means of destroying the Gholam to either the One Power or the True Power, since the Forsaken almost definitely didn't have Mat's amulet, and I can't imagine them spending the time to drive a Gholam into a stedding.  <br /><br />I favor the One Power option since I can't really picture Elayne unleashing the True Power, and the Forsaken aren't having problems with the Gholam.  Since the Gholam hasn't felt pain, it's probable that the killing of the creature is more of an all-or-nothing kind of deal; either the weave sort of dissipates the gholam, or the weaver gets killed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> The Late Coulin-Gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&quot;If you think you are,<br />you aren't.<br />If you think you aren't,<br />you still aren't.&quot;<br />                             -Love Hina</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 17:19:53
subject: <b>various</b>
body:
if the gholam really is made of op maybe the gholam could be killed by taking a ter'angreal like the Far Madding one near it. but my opinion is that the gholam were made by the true power instead of the one power. that would explain the Forsaken's dread of it, and why it wouldn't be affected by the op. oh, and randwashere, Aginor could definitely make AI, because Myrdraal are quite intelligent id say<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 14:26:40
subject: <b>Killing a gholam</b>
body:
&quot;I remember distinctly one of the Forsaken (Graendal, I think) thinking about the Gholam and remembering killing one before.&quot;<br /><br />In LoC 23, Graendal remembers that she had a near fatal encounter with a gholam before, but there's nothing to indicate that she actually killed that gholam.  She might, but she could just as well have Traveled away or succesfully controlled it after a struggle.


created: 2002-04-07 23:13:54
subject: <b>A thought....</b>
body:
I heard severing mentioned and several rebuttels against it....does anyone think that placing a shield on it would have any effect?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 05:40:12
subject: <b>Not the One Power, the &quot;True&quot; Power</b>
body:
I think the Gholam was more likely made with the &quot;True&quot; Power, not the One Power.  Reasons:<br /><br />1. That would explain why it cancels out the One Power.  The &quot;True&quot; Power is the One Power's opposite.  Moridin Travels by _ripping through_ the Pattern of the world, not by weaving a pattern of his own, as he would if using the One Power.  Rending is the opposite of weaving.<br /><br />2. Aginor made the gholam, just like he made the Trollocs, the Myrddraal (as a side effect), and the Draghkar.  The magic used by the Myrddraal and Draghkar is not the One Power.  Considering their abjectly evil and chaotic natures, they are probably using the &quot;True&quot; Power, or rather something bred into them _by_ the TP.  It would make sense that the Gholam does the same.<br /><br />3. The fox medallion absorbs only saidar, not saidin.  Remember, Rahvin's lightning strike kills Mat, medallion and all, before Rand's balefire erases that fact.  For the medallion to work the way you suggest, the Gholam would have to be a thing of saidar, or that at least incorporates saidar.  But Aginor was the architect, and he can't wield saidar.  <br /><br />4. We learn at the end of WH that Aginor isn't even that strong with saidin.  He got to be Chosen because he's a some sort of genius mad scientist.  But genius or not, it must have taken great power to make all the Shadowspawn that have troubled the world since his day, and I don't think he was powerful enough in the One Power to explain that.  I'm guessing it was the work of the &quot;True&quot; Power.  Remember, besides Moridin/Ishamael, Aginor is the only other Forsaken regarded by his fellows as being a little mad, and madness must go with the TP just as it goes with the taint on saidin.  That's why the more sane Forsaken fear to use it.<br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br />Florian<br />


created: 2002-04-25 21:06:43
subject: <b>Aginor and vampires</b>
body:
I guess what I have to say has already been said in the post at various times, but since everyone seems intent on disproving it, I'll say it again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />First of all, simply to clear it up: According to the WOT guide (the big white one) Aginor actually is very powerful (&quot;The second most powerful man...Aginor came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength&quot; pp 53). Also, he definately made the gholam, which it says on the same page. So that's that, from RJ's own mouth.<br /><br />As for everything else...as an avid vampire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> I immediately thought of them when I read of the gholam, and automatically assumed it was what they were based on...an immortal, almost invincible creature who simply needs human blood to sustain its greater powers. I think the best way to destroy a gholam would be to somehow bind it (don't ask me with what...thats for Jordan to find out! lol) and keep it from a source of human blood. I think it would starve and dissipate, much like a vampire starved of blood will die, without fuel for its body.<br /><br />So there's my HO...okay, now you're all free to debase it if you wish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace<br />--Memnoch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Sedai<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 17:07:18
subject: <b>As I stated eariler</b>
body:
When Mat meets Halima, who is really a male channeler (Balthamel (sp)) in a females body, she/he/it/whateva channels at him and the fox head goes cold, he/she uses sadin. This is right after he dances with her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 21:15:56
subject: <b>Yes and also to confirm...</b>
body:
for all those keep saying otherwise:<br /><br />Mat's medallion DOES stop <i>saidin</i>.<br /><br />As stated above, it stopped flows from Halima (Balthamel) who channels <i>saidin</i>.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 18:39:01
subject: <b>Yes indeed...</b>
body:
RJ has specifically stated that lightning such as killed Mat is not a weave of the one power, just the effect of the power, much like throwing a rock, the rock is not of the power, but it was thrown with the power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 15:29:33
subject: <b>Pure Power and the Eye of the World</b>
body:
I don't think it's possible for the Gholem to be made of the one power. Remember the Eye of the World? The only time we've ever seen any pure essence of the one power and it was a liquid-like pool. Furthermore, I recall mention of the creation of the Eye requiring the work of large numbers of men and women channelers working together for a long time and a number of them dying in the creation of the Eye. So, it seems even more unlikely that Aginor (no matter how strong) could've made 6 creatures composed entirely of one power by himself. Fun speculation, but I think, not feasible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 21:29:31
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
I couldn't see it stated anywhere but I wonder if <br />Balefire could kill a Gholam.  Or if Balefire could kill Mat with the medallion on.  Just a thought.<br />Another thought is that how do you kill a vampire? You stake it in the heart.  Now this is supposing it has a heart that can conform to very small things.  Maybe if Mat were to stake it some way it would die.  Probably not.  This theory I like.  Maybe they took a soul and bound it (kind of like turning someone to the DO against their will).<br />And made it need blood for sustaining its life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 22:20:15
subject: <b>balefire</b>
body:
balefire was what i was thinking, but i will giv you some theories to chew on i guess..<br /><br />Firstly:<br /><br />Try melting it, we know that when the fox head touches it, it produces a hell of alot of heat and it burns it, so perhaps if it was frown into the likes of a firey pit or something it might lose its molecular cohesion..  just a thought.<br /><br />Secondly:<br /><br />Blow the damn thing up!<br /><br />hehe, if rand figures out this gun powder thing, he will be able to use tnt perhaps to create enough heat in it to cut it up into tiny bits (like i say below) and (burn it like i say above)<br /><br /><br />Thirdly:<br /><br />Cut it up into tiny little pieces..  not a bad idea, severer it and keep chopping it up until there little left, then take all the parts to the corner of the earth in boxes :-D  using gateways to travel or something..<br /><br />only other thing they could do with it, is dump it in those plains where rand ended up , when  he went to sleep and used a portal stone acidently or something..<br /><br />perhaps the gholam is some kind of huge living ter'angreal, i remember a aes sedai warning about the adverse using a ter'angreal on a ter'angreal once upon a time, that could be the simple answer to why mats medalion works on it..<br /><br />one other point, is it really the medalion thats damaging the gholam?? (Mat touches it and it burns, if u look at the paragraph closely, we dont know if the medalion is touching his neck, the foxhead fell out of Mat's &quot;open&quot; shirt: &quot;Struggling for air, he pushed himself up, foxhead dangling from his open shirt.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />so perhaps, mat is burning this gholam all by himself and he doesnt realise that him being tavaren has an adverse affect on it, or something..<br /><br />just some other info, we know pretty much the gholam came from a statis box from what birgitte sed, we also know there were origionally 6 created, 3 male and 3 female, this obvioiusly suggests there limited in what they can change form into, so perhaps re melding a limb to themselves is somewhat harder than we beleive.. especially if u use a power wrought heron marked sword to do the slicing and dicing..<br /><br />just my thoughts on the matter :-)  alot to chew on there..


created: 2002-08-29 22:22:37
subject: <b>oops forgot</b>
body:
forgot to mention something, obviously this gholam can be controlled somehow, which suggests a way of harming or hurting it, cos i cant figure out another way of contorlling something like that other than threatening it, i mean the creator must of put a fail safe for something as powerful as that, thus we can reason that who ever got it out the status box is in control of it and **KNOWS** how to kill it , more than likely..


created: 2003-01-02 16:21:48
subject: <b>gholam</b>
body:
I have not read all the other comments on the board. There is only one problem with this theory. The Gholam doesn't absorb the  flows. the flows don't touch him. He is similar to Mat's ter'angrel. The flows just melt around him. It is quite similar to the effect a stedding would have, but the only problem isn't a many ter'angrel like the ones in Farmadding. It is a tool for war. This is pure speculation though. Please shoot this theory full of wholes.


created: 2008-01-22 00:47:27
subject: <b>umm... Question?</b>
body:
When the medallion is touching Mat's skin it's properties are also placed on him. If this is true then why is the Gholam not hurt when he touches Mat then?<br /><br />Also, I don't remember reference to the medallion &quot;absorbing&quot; anything. I'm sure it was always something like: &quot;The flows just MELTED BEFORE reaching him&quot; That's not an accurate quote but a summary of what I remember with searching through the books again. <br /><br />I was always of the opinion that Mat's medallion is similar to Cadsuane's Humming Bird hair clip which she used to DISRUPT Semirhage's weave in KoD.


created: 2002-03-27 21:16:48
subject: <b>the flood...</b>
body:
...is not God's touch on our world, it's just some powerful channeller playing with the bolw of the wind...


created: 2002-03-27 21:31:44
subject: <b>Why WoT world IS Earth.......</b>
body:
This goes to Raserei and all the other people that STILL think WoT is not Earth.  I'll just use a few examples straight from the books:<br /><br />Book 3:  When in T'A'R,  Egwene goes to the Panarch's display room and picks up a &quot;three-pointed star inside of a circle&quot;.... &quot;from an age BEFORE the AOL&quot;.... &quot;made of an unrecognizable,  soft, chipping metal&quot;.... &quot;associated with pride and vanity&quot;....  okay,  can't get much clearer...  it is a Mercedes-Bens insignia,  from our age,  made of chrome!<br /><br />Thom's stories:  <br /><br />Elsbet,  Queen of All=  Queen Elisabeth,  during a time when, &quot;the sun never set on the British Empire&quot;<br /><br />Mosk and Merc,  two giants that fought with lances of fire=  two powerful nations that fought with nuclear weapons (in OUR future)<br /><br />Lenn,  who flew to the moon in the belly of a fire eagle= John gLENN...&quot;the EAGLE has landed&quot;<br /><br />AND, Jordan specifically mentions a time when &quot;humankind forgot the use of the One Power&quot;..... if you read these books you have to know that Jordan never mentions something for nothing.  Not to go into the numerous biblical similarities... that would take forever....<br /><br />And that is why WoT IS OUR WORLD.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-27 21:57:18
subject: <b>Sorry, but...</b>
body:
Interesting theory, but nun's don't have mystical powers such as the Aes Sedi have in the WOT. Also, something tells me that something screwy is going on with those people who claim they have supernatural powers. While I admit that it would be cool to have those, usually &quot;miricles&quot; are produced by a sense of faith and not conjured up because of some other outside power such as saiden or saidar. But, I do like the theory, i just have to say that I can't really agree with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 23:02:09
subject: <b>John Armstrong landed on the moon</b>
body:
This has been pointed out before by someone who probably knows more about this than I do, but... John Glenn never went to the moon. He was the first man to - help me here - orbit the Earth. But Glenn did get to go up in the Space Shuttle as a Senior Citizen. Go John!<br /><br />Anyway, Child of the Light, you can't use &quot;Lenn&quot; to prove the Earth/Randland thing unless you accuse RJ of making a mistake about Glenn &amp; Armstrong. BTW, I get a HUGE kick out of the Mercedes-Benz ornament. I would have NEVER come up with that one on my on. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 23:56:36
subject: <b>Actually EntWife.... It was Neil....</b>
body:
Actually it was Neil Armstrong that landed on the moon... but that is beside the point,  things change over thousands of years,  names etc.  &quot;ages come and go, leaving memory that fades to myth that fades to legend,  and then even legend is forgotten&quot;  so on and so forth...   WoT is OUR world,  it really couldn't be much clearer in the books,  just read between the lines and pay close attention....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-28 01:21:18
subject: <b>Thom in The Shadow Rising...</b>
body:
I have to agree with Child of Light on this one. Page 231 of The Shadow Rising has Thom saying to Elayne something to the effect of ...&quot;Those who know the truth will die, and their grandchildren's grandchildren will remember something diffrent&quot; etc. &quot;Two dozen generations, and you may be the hero of it, not Rand.&quot; &quot;Rand al'Thor may be lucky if the next Age remembers his name correctly.&quot;<br /><br />This illustrates to us how the facts and names of events can change with time. Jordan was definately dropping us a hint here.


created: 2002-03-28 02:04:30
subject: <b>No, I don't agree.</b>
body:
There doesn't seem to be enough time b/w the ages if you stick to 'biblical' analysis. Technically, if you add up the ages and begats and everything else, God created the world about 4,000-4,500 years ago. that doesn't seem long enough to have run through enough ages- in WOT I think the last age has run for about 3,00 year (is that right?), which means maybe 1.5 ages since the creation, even if you assume the creation is a remaking of the world from the age before.<br />The references to our world do not _prove_ a connection (and there's more references if you want to look, try the WOT FAQ, full of commentary and links..) Consider Stephen King's gunslinger series, or The Lord of the Rings they're full of crossovers or parallels to our world, but they're not 'our' world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 08:30:32
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to say something.<br />I, too, am a huge fan of the Wheel of Time series and definately enjoy the fantasy world.  <br />However, I do believe that making this fantasy into a reality may be stretching it too far.  I dont like to tell other people they are wrong, or have issues.....but, look....a creation of the mind is only that.  RandLand is not Earth.<br /><br />HOWEVER!  I do beleive that any creation of the mind could easily exist in another place...another dimension if you will.  Now, im on my way to becoming a Physicist, dealing with cosmology and space-time, reality, stuff like that.  But I think that anything that we create in our minds...people, places, gods.....are created in some other existance.<br />So, RandLand exists, somewhere else.  Maybe in something like the Wolf Dream, or Tel..poo, i can never spell the dream world right...oh well.....you all know what i mean right? like those parallel worlds that can be accessed by those portal stones, or a form of Travelling...that would be cool huh? Ill work on that after I get my degrees, maybe Robert Jordan has already discovered such technologies and is just stealing ideas from someone else's creativity...I hope not!<br /><br />just my ramblings...nothing more<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 11:40:35
subject: <b>It isn't all bible.</b>
body:
I know that it is very attractive to fund a theory on the Bible. But we always should keep in mind that the Bible wasn't RJ's only inspiration. So if we run an analyse of the origin of tWoT, we should keep some space for 'alien'myths. Because this 'looking at only one side' is an error who's to common made.


created: 2002-03-28 12:01:31
subject: <b>I Don't See Any Reason to Believe This</b>
body:
First of all, the twisting of names from our world to make WoT legends doesn't mean WoT is set on our Earth; it may just be that Jordan wants us to see how fact becomes legend becomes myth becomes forgotten.<br /><br />Second of all, why five ages in particular?  Why is the &quot;Ice Age&quot; thrown in with Biblical events (is someone under the influence of the Ice Age movie?)?  Why does Noah represent a shift in ages?  Why does Christ's initial coming then represent another shift?  It doesn't make sense.  From a pagan perspective, the Age of Taurus (4000-2000 B.C.) gave way to the Age of Aries (2000 B.C. - 1 A.D.), which gave way to the Age of Pisces (hence, Christians greeted the new era with a fish symbol that was &quot;ICHTHYS&quot; - Iesous Christos Theou Yios Soter), which has just ended recently, putting us in the Age of Aquarius.  If you're going to use Christian myth, that's the appropriate breakdown.  If you're going to use Jewish myth, then you go from Genesis 1 to the coming of the Messiah (who still hasn't come, if you're Jewish).<br /><br />Simply put, I don't see any reason why we are supposed to believe that WoT must be set on Earth.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 13:31:17
subject: <b>Thanks for the correction...</b>
body:
Child of Light - Thanks for the correction. Actually, my mis-remembering who landed on the moon helped me believe in your points (and in the Theory being discussed). The moon landing happened in my lifetime. When I was in Elementary School (showing my age here) all classes were interupted so we could watch the moon landing live. I can't even remember if it was the first one or a subsequent one.<br /><br />If I can confuse the names of the men who did something during my lifetime, how much more can those names get twisted over multiple generations. And there ARE a lot of people out there who think that Glenn did go to the moon.<br /><br />I know that this discussion is kinda off the point of the theory, but I thought if I could shoot down one argument the rest of the arguments would crumble. Obviously not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 13:53:59
subject: <b>BTW, it could be LEM</b>
body:
I thought Jordan was referring to LEM, the Lunar Expeditionary Module, which is what the actual vehicle that landed on the moon (nicknamed &quot;the Eagle&quot; ) was called.<br /><br />That would be closer to being right than to say it's from John Glenn.<br /><br />And as always, Buzz Aldrin was forgotten.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 15:51:35
subject: <b>bout that Christ could have been known as the Dragon at one point......</b>
body:
and that is traditionally Lucifer's name, at least to us now, <br /><br />I thought I'd point out the little switch, however I'm too tired to make anythignout of it, can you?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font color="silver">Your favourite place is you and me.</font></i><br /><br /><i><font color="white">Eat dirt, fascist herbivores!</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 17:04:54
subject: <b>Ours is NOT the Age before AoL</b>
body:
Because if it is, can you direct me to the nearest Portal Stone? If Randland is Earth, then ours should be the Seventh Age, not the First Age. It would be then thus:<br /><br />1. bAoL. Mankind toys with alternate realities. Magic?<br />2. AoL. Probably started with the discovery of One Power.<br />3. Third Age. We are all waiting impatiently for it to end.<br />4. Fourth Age. Technical progress. Perhaps ends with a nuclear war? <br />5. Ice Age? Man roaming as brother to animals? Ends with a flood?<br />6. Noah-Christ, that I'll give you.<br />7. Our Age. <br />


created: 2002-03-28 17:31:28
subject: <b>Mosk and Merc</b>
body:
Mosk could very easily be Moscow, and Merc could be America. Thats if you swallow what's being said above, which I have, without chewing. I'm not sure about the whole biblical breakdown, but I do think WoT is Earth in the future. Le me change that, I believe it's meant to be earth in the Future. I thin thats how most people feel, I strongly doubt there is anybody taking this as Holy Spirit inspired Gospel. Besides, its fun to beleive Earth could be WoT, to fanatasize about channeling. Thats whats fun about fantasy, Fantasizing.


created: 2002-03-28 23:33:34
subject: <b>me again....</b>
body:
I'm not saying that WoT ties directly into the bible,  although it is obvious Jordan gets some of his inspiration from it.... what makes me believe that it is our world in the future or past or both,   is the kind of writer Jordan is.  He never mentions anything (characters, places, etc.) without them or it playing a much bigger role in the over all story,  so,  i don't think he would ever have even dropped hints that could tie to our world if he didnt want the story to go in that direction.  Fortune prick me!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-29 01:14:26
subject: <b>Confusion anyone?</b>
body:
I'm not exactly sure how alot of people came up with us thinking that we BELIEVE that Randland is Earth. I mean c'mon, RJ is a fantastic author but I dont take the WOT as scripture. That would be one of two things...sacriledge or stupidity and I dont subscribe to either one of those. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-29 02:32:12
subject: <b>I think you say Hawkwing ended the 2nd age</b>
body:
He did not. LTT did. Forgive me please if I misread the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 00:21:09
subject: <b>Hey Jack and Coke.....</b>
body:
No one is saying that WoT is in fact our world.... it is a made up world,  what we are saying is that it is supposed to be our planet in a fictional story,  kinda like say... ummm.... &quot;silence of the Lambs&quot; is fictional,  yet it is supposed to be our world... get it?  We understand that WoT doesnt REALLY exist,  but it is supposed to be a FICTIONAL version of OUR world's past or future.... Burn me!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-30 03:30:47
subject: <b>Hey Child of the Light!</b>
body:
FYI, I was by no means attacking anything you said on this theory thus far. My appologies to you if it seemed as such.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> What I was responding to was those who would think such as was illustrated by AshaDom's post...<br /><br />&quot;Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to say something.<br />I, too, am a huge fan of the Wheel of Time series and definately enjoy the fantasy world. <br />However, I do believe that making this fantasy into a reality may be stretching it too far. I dont like to tell other people they are wrong, or have issues.....but, look....a creation of the mind is only that. RandLand is not Earth.&quot;<br /><br />To Ashadom, I have to say that I like the second part of your post and even agree with it after a fashion. I myself have often theorized that artists, i.e. writers and painters, may have some genetic defect(or gift?) to see other realities, albeit subconcieously, and then feel compelled to share them with the rest of us. I like your thinking. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-30 04:25:03
subject: <b>Okay J&amp;C.....</b>
body:
I wasn't really offended,  i just get overly protective of my beliefs,  I am a Child of the Light, afterall.... so no offense taken and hopefully none given on my part... and I still say WoT is, is, IS EARTH!!!!    may the hand of the Creator shelter and protect you.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-30 05:57:37
subject: <b>Well hey maybe it is</b>
body:
Given all the things I've read around here, maybe the WOT is earth. Perhaps some Aes Sedai used a portal stone to go back(or forward)in time and let RJ know what was up so we can be prepared. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Try saying that five times fast.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-02 09:05:59
subject: <b>uh, are we missing the point?</b>
body:
i think this theory was originally intended to support the idea that in RJ's world, and only in RJ's world, randland is earth.  he has created a world that alot of our current myths, legends, philosophies, and religions might be based on.  NOT  that in truth, randland is earth.  for those of you who took it that way, may you find psychiatric help and lots of meds.<br /><br />peace!


created: 2002-04-03 02:06:02
subject: <b>To Prince of the Dawn....</b>
body:
First of all. . . Shut up.  Second of all,  I think you're the one missing the point.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-23 15:21:15
subject: <b>Response to the comments</b>
body:
First of all, I want to thank everyone for the comments.  This interplay is part of why I like WotMania so much.  Anyway, I just wanted to put a little more fire into the weave, so to speak, and maybe spirit.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ingwall, I like the idea of putting another age between ours and the age of Legends.  It makes things fit just a little better, and we can toss the ice age. (though at the same time I'm a little sad I wont get to live in the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Gena Sedai, Yes, I think you're right.  So many names, so many major events.<br /><br />To all those who were getting a little upset that I was pressing a new religion; I'd hoped that I was clear enough in the start of the post that I was not doing so.  This is a Fictional world, and many people enjoy bringing it just that much closer to ourselves.  I consider myself to be quite religious, and think this form of Circular time absurd, but it is fun to put the world you know into a fictional setting.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One last note; has anyone noticed the similarity between the aura/glory/etc often seen in paintings around Prophets/Saints/etc and the glow around those using the One Power?<br /><br />Just a thought  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Thanks again for the comments!


created: 2002-05-14 00:36:24
subject: <b>Foolish thinking</b>
body:
The dragon cant be based on Christ or God in any way because God is perfect and doesnt screw up.  rand and Lews Therin (the dragons we know of) have screwed up a lot.  You cant base someone who is as faulty as those two are on the Perfect Triune God.  and to whoever said that God made the world and has hence left us to our own desires really needs to read about God more cause if you read just a little of the Bible you see that God most definetly did not just make the world and then back off.  That is only foolishness.


created: 2002-06-12 04:01:45
subject: <b>FAN FIC</b>
body:
AS FAR AS ONE OF THE POSTS GO ON HERE ABOUT POSSIBLY THE AOL HAVING STARTED DUE TO THE DISCOVERY OF THE ONE POWER, I READ A FAN FICTION STORY ON ANOTHER SITE ABOUT THAT.  THE SITE WAS DRAGONLIBRARY.COM, AND IT WAS ABOUT SOMETIME IN OUR NEAR FUTURE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE ALL OF THE SUDDEN REALIZING THEY HAD THE ABILITY TO USE &quot;MAGIC.&quot;  THE STORY IS NOT FINISHED, AND I DESPAIR SOMEWHAT OF IT EVER BEING SO.  JUST WANTED TO PUT IN MY TWO CENTS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 18:19:06
subject: <b>umm... some history missing</b>
body:
First, and foremost, some historical info on our world.  Our world was around for a long while before humans were around...  So... this enless cyclical time thing doesn't really work with our world.  While I do think RJ is making some allusions to our world, I don't think he intends it to be taken as this world is our world, just in a different Age.  First of all is the slight problem of dinosaurs.... You know, the rulers of the earth for a few million years before we and mammals came around.... But anyways, it doesn't really matter much, but yeah...


created: 2002-10-14 13:09:18
subject: <b>Starry Ages</b>
body:
Probably some dinosaur fossils made it into the Panarch's museum. Perhaps dinsosaurs were some of the strange unknown creatures in the frieze on a wall in the Panarch's Museum. REmember Thom's knowledge of Ages. &quot;Ages when men walked as brothers to the animals, Ages when men ruled the stars. Ages that ended in ice and snow (Ice Age) and Ages that ended in fire&quot; (talking about the end of the Dinosaur age when a meteor fell and smothered the world in fire and ashes?) One more thing that you have overlooked: the stars themselves. One of the best way to identify your location on Earth is to look at the starry night sky. Rand identified some of the constellation: the Hunter or Warder in other lands (Orion?), the Five Sisters (Pleiades--once called the Seven Sisters, but one star faded away, perhaps another would fade away leaving five stars), etc....Astronomy says if you're on another planet in a different star system, the appearance of the constellation changes into something different or even unrecognizable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 11:10:32
subject: <b>Judaeo-Christian beliefs a minority</b>
body:
Let's remember that our culture (the West) while currently the dominant civilization, possesses only one type of myth/religion.  In your theory the First Age - ours - is labeled 'Christ.' That's overstating Christianity's popularity, to put it mildly.


created: 2003-05-28 01:49:36
subject: <b>your ages are way off</b>
body:
That leaves us with five ages to fill in. From what we can see in Randland, both ages have/will end with a major cataclysmic &#8220;end of the world&#8221; event, as well as one person who will be a savior to the world; Rand in the third age, Hawkwing in the previous.<br /><br />hawkwing is of rands Age. lews therin was the last age. r u reading the same books as us? more evidence is when hawkwing know lews is rand &quot;even if he doesnt know it himself.&quot; man he even references lews getting into trbl over women. your theory sinks here because the figure of rand/savior/etc is a repeated soul in a different body. hawkwing &amp; rand in the same place no lews in the horn, when the dragon is part of the horn.<br /><br />If we go through our own folklore, we have a Christ who will end our current age in his return, and ended the previous age when he came before. We can also piece together (with continuing difficulty, because as Thom said, no one knows how the story will change in the ages to come), that the age before Christ began with the Flood. The world was saved at the end of that age by one man, Noah, but it is possible there was someone else not mentioned in the lore. That&#8217;s three ages.<br /><br />noah is of our age as well as christ wrong again<br /><br /><br />First Age: Christ-Current day.<br /><br />maybe<br /><br />Second Age: Age of Legends.<br /><br />maybe<br /><br />Third Age: Randland.<br /><br />well it is after the aol<br /><br />Fourth Age: Post-Randland (because we do hope for a happy ending)<br /><br />who knows<br /><br />Fifth Age: Ice Age<br /><br />who knows<br /><br />Sixth Age: Adam-Noah<br /><br />same age<br /><br />Seventh Age: Noah-Christ<br /><br />same age<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>NEKRO</b><br /><b>VIVA LA REAGAN REVOLUCION</b><br /> <br /><b>Forget the dog he will sh<i></i>it in the den today a gat is mans best friend</b><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


