# w_comment

created: 2002-08-19 15:35:37
subject: <b>Vashti....</b>
body:
I disagree for several reasons.  Demandred is not Masema.  Demandred is using Masema.  <br /><br />Masema went nuts when he discovered Rand was the Dragon Reborn.  In that time Min spent months in Masema's presence.( you must have forgotten, thats okay )  Perrin also smells Masema, and the result is he's nuts.<br /><br /> Masema is not Demandred.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 17:56:23
subject: <b>I know all is fine with the world when...</b>
body:
I see Columbo and Vashti arguing on the theory posts. Well, disagreeing anyway. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My personal thought is that Masema is not Demandred, but is his proxy. Granted, I may be wrong. I just think Demmy has too many proxies to actually be a character other than Demmy himself. Hopefullt CoT will solve alot of these mysteries.<br /><br />I always thought that Ingtar was the one at the DF convention, and there is not enough proof (yet) to convince me otherwise.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for listening. Peace, out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 23:09:59
subject: <b>Ingtar it was..</b>
body:
...who we saw at the meeting in TGH.  The description does seem to lean towards him.  Also, he was the perfect man to be spreading the order to keep the gates closed and to keep Rand in Fal Dara, as he had the authority to do so.<br /> However, I have thought before that Masema may well have also been present at the meeting, and his change in behaviour was probably the result of the orders Ishy left in his subconscious.  This relies on Ishy somehow being able to attain glimpses of the future, which seems to me to be likely, although I don't know how.<br />  Finally, I agree with Columbo, Perrin's account of the madness in Masema's scent strikes him out as being Demandred, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 00:57:18
subject: <b>Hmmm Interesting</b>
body:
I disagree that Masema was at the meeting(despite the cool theory post name). Also I doubt Demandred was Masema. <br /><br />More likely Masema could be being Controlled, however unlikely. Would all of his followers be controlled too? Or does Compulsion not leave a distinctive scent? You would think it would. If Perrin can smell fear I believe he would be able to smell Compulsion. I am leaning towards Masema just being a ordinary fanatic but his sudden change in his character should be taken into further consideration especially with his upcoming role in the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 10:48:53
subject: <b>Ingtar it may or may not be</b>
body:
who is the man who calls himself Bors.<br /><br />However, why is absolutely everybody convinced that Masema is a friend/servant/slave/pawn of the dark?  It seems to me he's a crazy religious fanatic.  You can compare him to many historical nincompoops.  He hates Aiel, but maybe all his life he believed the Dragon Reborn wasn't so bad after all, and if that dragon happens to be Aiel, well, maybe the Aiel aren't so bad after all.  An end to racism.  I'm not positive, but I believe we've seen Masema hating other Aiel too.<br /><br />I do applaud the theory that Masema is Demandred, but from a style Point of View, not substance.  There is good logical and circumstantial evidence that it is possible listed above, but it comes off as a house of cards to me, with no real evidence.  Nonetheless, it is a very finely constructed house of cards, with flying buttresses as it's chief architectural breakthrough in house-of-cards making.<br /><br />My stance.<br /><br />Bors - somebody.  Maybe Ingtar, if not, then not a plot-character -- yet.<br />Masema - Masema.  Masema is Masema, and he is a fanatic, and he is Masema.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 10:58:27
subject: <b>Masema, Min and Demandred</b>
body:
Thanks for the reminder of Min and Masema (basically, book 3), however...it doesn't invalidate my support.  Masema didn't split until after the camp.  <br /><br />Plus, we are told that we have the info for who he is.  And as I said, nobody else covers all the bases like Masema does.  Not Norrydred, not Aramdred, not Weiradred and certainly not Taimendred<br /><br />As for Perrin's scent...well, what do Forsaken smell like? <br /><br />And I think it's highly evident that Demandred is nuts.  He's essentially a paranoid schizophrenic with massive insecurities (afterall, he betrayed the Light almost completely because of jealousies) and consumed by envy. <br /><br />That would work for Perrin's nose.


created: 2002-08-20 13:21:29
subject: <b>Bors was Carridin, wasn't he</b>
body:
Just refering to a comment above. I thought Bors was the whitecloak Jaccim Carridin that ended up being tortured to death in WH (I think) for failing the forsaken. But still, there was a Shinearan there.<br /><br />As for the smell of Masema, Perrin says he smells crazy. I have no doubt he is. A Forsaken could very well have this smell. IMO Masema probably has several characteristics in common with the Forsaken.<br /><br />What if the Seanchan he was seen talking with was Semirhage in her Anath disguise. That would certainly tie everything up in a nice little bundle. But for now, there is not enough evidence to convince me.<br /><br />If Demandred was Masema, and he was suppose to be keeping an eye on Rand, why didn't he let Perrin's Asha'man take him to Rand? And why doeshe seem sp afraid of channeling. Dashiva certainly wasn't afraid to use gateways and be near loads of men who could channel. Unless he wanted to pursue his own plans to let chaos rule. But would he risk disobeying just to keep anarchy going? Besides, at this point, I think the roving bands of Dragonsworn could pretty much keep dishing out choas without Masema around at this point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 13:27:56
subject: <b>Vashti.......</b>
body:
Did not perrin smell madness? <br /><br />I don't believe that Demandred is Masema.  I believe that Demandred is using Masema and maybe his likeness once and a while ( As Lanfear used a likeness in the WH ). The reason being is I don't believe that Masema could have accomplished what he has on his own.  I'm with Randwashere in that Demandred is using more than one guise. <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />P.S. Bors is not Ingtar he is Carridon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 14:14:55
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
...he did smell madness. But who says Demandred isn't mad?  He's always come off as pretty whacked-out to me.  That was my point.<br /><br />And, it of course opens the issue of, if we have all the info we need, and if not Masema, then who?


created: 2002-08-20 15:12:07
subject: <b>Min views</b>
body:
I don't think Min recognise a Forsaken because of the viewing she has. Remember when Rand was wounded from Fain dagger? Dashiva was in the room with Min when Rand was healed by Flin. And Min didn't know that he was a Forsaken.<br />So, Demandred could be unnoticed near Min and Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 16:10:35
subject: <b>It depends...</b>
body:
Min has a &quot;problem&quot; with channelers.  She sees a multitude of auras dancing around them and most of the times she doesn't see anything useful or clear.<br /><br />Min had at least three encounters with Forsaken.  We don't know what she saw around Lanfear (TGH) if anything at all. She once viewed that Moghedien (Marigan) &quot;was trouble&quot;.  That's not much and she didn't detailed what she saw...<br /><br />She viewed a multitude of unreadable dancing images around Aginor (Dashiva), but that again was very typical of what she views around channelers. In fact, in that scene the description also applied to Cadsuane who was next to Dashiva. <br /><br />In theory, Min can also tell a channeler from a non-channeler if they hold the power or channel, because the dancing images then become blurry.<br /><br />So, if Demandred approaches Min and Rand, he would be better for his safety to be an Asha'man, else Min could well notice something strange about his auras, like the unusual amount of images for a non-channeler and non-warder. No doubt it's the kind of thing she would tell Rand about.  Not that the Shadow knows about that, though (unless Mesaana had very effective spies).<br /><br />But I guess Min would have to be quite lucky to see something telling a Forsaken from another channeler.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-20 19:21:10
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
Madness? Demandred?  Please!  He is not Mad or crazy.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 23:20:50
subject: <b>Sevanna</b>
body:
Just in reference to the Bors comment, Jaichim Carridin (sp?) was definitely Bors as he answered to the name once when a fade came and visited him, as for my thoughts on Masema he is crazy, not evil, maybe confused and led on by someone but not a darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 09:43:07
subject: <b>Uh...why not?</b>
body:
Why is Demandred not crazy?<br /><br />He's a megalomaniac.  He has incredibly strong ties to the Sinkhole of Evil in the universe, the Dark One (which HAS to be unsettling).  He is absolutely consumed with envy and jealousy of Lews Therin.  He was trapped for 3000 years with a bunch of other maniacs, most of whom would be rather delighted to kill him.  He's (rather necessarily) very paranoid of the people who are his allies! Whenever anyone describes him, they always begin with how nuts he is about LTT. <br /><br />The question is not whether he's insane, but how anyone could think he's stable.  <br /><br />Just because he's functional doesn't mean he's not a lunatic.  For reference, all insane people are not drooling, raving vegetables.


created: 2002-08-21 09:53:14
subject: <b>Let's Take it Further</b>
body:
and this is for fun, folks. Don't get bent out of shape.<br /><br />You're Demandred.  You've been posing as Masema (says I!) for a year or so.  Why?  To discredit the Dragon (Reborn).  Your entire life and purpose is designed to interfere with someone who you hate.  People that specialize in 'hate' readily admit that you are REALLY filled with hate.  And having to discredit Rand is pretty galling, because that means that Rand/LTT IS actually more significant than you are, and your duty is to reinforce that.<br /><br />Then what happens??<br /><br />Some...WHELP...some bearded lackey (who you don't realize is Ta'veren), comes to summon you to account for yourself to the very person for whom you have made 'hate' an artform.  To SUMMON!!! As if you were some poorly trained hound that peed on the floor in front of company!  Worse, this..this...LACKEY dares to tell you who and what you can bring with you.  In fact, he's liberally been hanging your own followers! HOW DARE HE!!??<br /><br />Is it any wonder at all that Perrin smelled madness and rage?<br /><br />Demandred is nuts :-)


created: 2002-08-21 11:53:20
subject: <b>Anyone who serves the Dark Lord</b>
body:
has to be a least a little bit crazy. Consumed by greed, jealousy, hate, anger, or whatever to swear their soul to the Dark One. Anyone who kills just for fun has to have a screw loose. Thats whats wrong with the insanity plea in the United States. Anyone who kills in, IMO, crazy!!<br /><br />But how can Masema keep an eye on Rand? Thats still the biggest aurgument in my mind that excludes Masema from being Demandred. Maybe he was trying through his proxy, Taim. Like as if Rand even trusts Taim at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 12:25:06
subject: <b>For goodness sake, Demandred is not Masema</b>
body:
and he is not insane. Forgive me for saying so, but mabye you need to re-read the series. It seems like it's been a while for you. No offense is meant by that, you have some great ideas, but unfortunatley I just don't think that you're as familliar with the series as you might think. <br /><br />For a quick refresher, go back and read the Forsaken meeting through Dem's PoV in WH. Then tell me if he's mad. The answer is a resounding &quot;No.&quot; <br /><br />Like the abive mentions, I feel that Dem is USING Masema, but to say that he is would be ridiculous because of Perrin's smell.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 15:19:04
subject: <b>got proof?</b>
body:
So far I've heard twice that he's not insane, but no reason to back it up, in the face of excellent reasons why he is.<br /><br />Perhaps you're confusing 'insane' with 'gibbering madman'. <br /><br />The insane can be coldly analytical, calculating, incredibly lucid, and appear highly functional. Demandred certainly can be the above.  That doesn't mean he's sane.  He also has been obsessed, driven, suffused with rage, incredibly paranoid--bah, I've already listed the things pointing to it...stuff that no one's bothered to refute. <br /><br />The converse of what you're suggesting is that sane people never go wild, never holler and scream and rant.  Ever see a sports event?  Do only insane people attend concerts?<br /><br />And people should quit relying so much on Perrin's nose.  After all, it didn't tell him much about Luc, did it?  THINK!!! He smells things.  He smells things that are essentially associated with fear, elation, etc., or what we've come to know as pheromones.   He does not, nor cannot, smell &quot;So-and-so has made a vow to the Ultimate Entity of Evil to serve them.&quot;   What pheromone would represent that?  What scent would convey that?<br /><br />


created: 2002-08-21 18:00:45
subject: <b>Hannibal the Cannibal</b>
body:
from Silence of the Lambs was all those things Vashti said, intellectual, calculating, etc., and he was decidedly crazy. I have much more stock in Min's visions, when she knows what they mean, than I do in Perrin's nose.<br /><br />But I still don't think Demandred is Masema.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 18:03:13
subject: <b>Go and re-read the series.</b>
body:
In tSR, Perrin DID smell something wrong with Slayer. Go and read it. He was about to kill him out of wolf instinct, but Faile shaming him due to his 'jealousy' stopped him. Jeez.<br /><br />Masema is insane 24/7. Uno and the Shinerians concur with that. Did you read that Forsaken meeting? Have you read the scenes in LoC? Demandred does not lose control. Ever. Remember his reaction to SH? Did he lose control? Nope.<br /><br />PLEASE re-read the series. What evidence do you have, exactly, of Dem being mad? Re-read his PoV's and then come back and talk.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 18:30:11
subject: <b>Dealing with Madness...</b>
body:
To even suggest that Perrin would smell anger and madness on Demendred is MADNESS!  To downplay Perrin's abilty of smell is crazy.  To even suggest that his sense of smell did nothing to help him uncover Slayer is of the wall.  Especially when Slayer had the Two Rivers ( except Perrin whose sense of smell picked up something inhuman from Slayer) fooled.  Which if you have forgotten led to Perrin hunting Slayer which very nearly cost Slayer his life.  Perrin's nose is not insignificant.<br /><br />Take GG's advise and reread the series Vashti!  Your fancy use of words will not help you here anymore.  You have been exposed.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 09:13:34
subject: <b>I'd just like to congratulate Vashti...</b>
body:
for going against the grain.<br /><br />Hey, maybe (okay, probably) he's totally wrong on Dem being Masema but he does provide interesting points and certainly some interesting discussion.<br /><br />Hell, I look forward to new theories simply to read you guys' arguments.<br /><br />And don't tell him to re-read the series, cuz none of you need to. Lol, that seems to be like the ultimate diss here on wotmania.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 10:38:51
subject: <b>More fuel for the fire</b>
body:
At the end of LoC, the DO is rewarding Demandred for a job well done: &quot;Have I not done well?&quot; etc. Masema isn't remotely involved (as far as we know) with <i>anything</i> that occurs in the entire book. This isn't evidence that he can't be Demandred (although I don't believe that he is); I was just curious what explanation anyone might have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 11:32:15
subject: <b>You ALL are crazy</b>
body:
because you seem to think this sh*t is real!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 13:49:55
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
IT ISN'T REAL? NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 09:23:53
subject: <b>*smacks head* Carridan is Bors! That's right.</b>
body:
I -knew- it wasn't Ingtar.  I didn't mention that, because I thought I might be wrong.  When I say something, I'm not wrong, usually.<br /><br />I was right, Carridan (sp?) is not a main character by any stretch of the imagination...yet...or ever, I suppose.<br /><br />Anyway, Demandred, he's clever, jealous...<br /><br />Vashti, no offense, but you remind me of people who think that Hitler wasn't smart, because he was evil.  Hitler was evil.  But he was also quite bright.  Evil is basically a lack of the morals you or I have, and is in no way related to sanity and other things.  You wouldn't call an insane person, or a bear or a jellyfish, evil for murder.  You'd call them crazy.  These guys are evil.<br /><br />Even Ishamael/Moridin has moments of lucidity.  Fleeting moments, and fewer between, he's a genius who's been imprisoned too long.  Demandred, I see no instances of non-lucidity in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 12:26:49
subject: <b>Thanks somebody's master</b>
body:
I was beginning to think I was crazy.  Demandred's POV have never pointed to madness or craaazzzzyyyy.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br />P.S. Vashti,  As you know I don't think that Masema is Demandred, but he is in close proximity to Masema.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 12:40:57
subject: <b>LOL @ P.Floyd!!!</b>
body:
That was a pretty severe diss, now that I look back, but it really wasn't meant to be. Vashti can be very insightful when he has the facts right, but alot of times he doesn't. We could get ALOT of things worked out on these comments (we do already) if we could concentrate on the facts and not arguing about why somebody is wrong, then defending one's self when one is wrong. If we are all on the same pages, that is : ROBERT JORDAN'S SERIES THE WHEEL OF TIME, we could see right through RJ's clues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 13:07:27
subject: <b>I like this theory.....</b>
body:
if for no other reason than I tried submitting it here a couple of months ago, and it was rejected.  What was wrong with what I wrote about it.<br /><br />Anyways, I had a lot more to my theory.  Let me pull it off the board I posted it on, and you should see that Masema's actions are very inconsistant.  Here it is.<br /><br />&quot;The question that sticks out in my mind is why did Masema suddenly go insane. Sure, he could have been overwhelmed by what he had seen at Falme. Another possibility is that the seed was planted in him to brew Chaos. We know that Ishy gave each person individual orders. In the meeting, he took Bors aside and told him what to do. He then proceeded to use Compulsion on him to plant orders in the back of his mind that he would know to do when the time came. His reasoning was that *some orders are too important to know, even for the person carrying them* (sorry this is a paraphrase)<br /><br />Later, in aCoS, when Sammael visits Carridin, Carridin notices Mat and gets a headache where he suddenly sees tHoV and Fain's Dagger. He then asks Sammael if Mat should be eliminated. Sammy gives Carridin specific orders to leave Mat alone, and leaves. As soon as Sammy leaves, he sets his DF circles to find Mat. Why would he disobey a Forsaken? Unless he was following the orders of a higher power. I believe this comes from the Compulsion Ishy placed on him in Book 2.<br /><br />We now have evidence that Compulsion has been used to make certain events happen throughout the series to Ishy's liking. We also know that the DO has always wanted Rand to continue ruling, but ferments chaos all around him. What if Compulsion was used on Masema to make him an insane follower of the Dragon. No one on the side of Light has created chaos more effectively than Masema, all in the name of the Light.<br /><br />Also consider his dealing with the Seanchan. Why would any follower of the Dragon ally himself with the Seanchan, especially SOMEONE WHO SAW HIM BATTLE THEM AT FALME!!!! This strikes me as highly suspicious, since he knows they are Rands enemy. Knowing that Semmy had allied herself with the Seanchan, which Ishy assuredly knew in tGH, since he seemed to be aware of what everyone was doing, this has new signifigance.&quot;<br /><br />Basically, I believe that Masema is a DF, and a tool of Ishy, not Demmy as has been previously believed. I realize there is a lot of speculation here, but there are some spectacular inconsistancies in the actions of certain characters that scream on opposite motive. <br /><br />And for the guy who stole my theory, next time acknowledge that the idea wasn't originally yours.  I searched through all the wotmania sites I could to see if anyone had ever posted that idea, and no one had.  Nobody likes a thief.


created: 2002-08-23 15:48:58
subject: <b>Demmy's not Ishy's....</b>
body:
We have not seen ONE thread of evidense that supports the idea that Masema was at Ishy's meeting. NOT ONE!  So you cannot attach Masema to Ishy, which throughs out compulsion.<br /><br />Now for what we know.<br /><br />&quot; Tell him I know what he is up to.&quot; Demandred had always liked using proxies. &quot;Tell him to be careful&quot;. I won't have him or his freinds interfering in my plans.&quot;  Perhaps he could direct a'thor's attention there; that would likley put an end to him. If other means did not work.<br />                    - Sammy LOC<br /><br />Okay.  If you recall after Rand took off on his own to go to Tear ( from hiding with Moraine, Lan,  Min and the Shienarian's, which Masema was one of) Moraine sends the Sheneriens to a small town in Ghealdan, to wait for word from her.  At this point Masema and the other 15 Shinearians had sworn to Rand.  Masema had yet to lose his mind.  Meanwhile I will submit to you that Demmy was already working in the area and using the Whitecloaks.  Uno tells Nyneave that Masema went weird after waiting some time in the small town in Ghealdan for Moraine to contact them which she never did.  Masema starts spotting about the Dragon and starts a following ( Dragonsworn ).In a matter of months takes over control of Ghealdan.  <br /><br />If you recall from above Sammy said Proxies, meaning more than one.  I beleive that Masema is a proxy of Demandred's and with Demandreds help, has created something Masema on his own was not capable of.<br /><br />Also Sammy suggests that not only  is Demandred using proxies but is in the area as well.<br /><br />Who is Demandred? I don't know.  I will submit to you that he is also working in the area ( Amador, Altar or Ghealdan). The only suspect that comes close in the area that matches Demmy's physical description is Valan Luca.<br /><br />Valan Luca matches Demandred physically.  Valan Luca came out of no where and has had interaction with some of the main characters over long periods of time.  Valan Luca is smart and arrogant.  He escaped unscathed with his show from Ghealdan. He's in the area ( meets Nyneave, Elayne, Thom and theif catcher in Amador )which Sammy suggests. The only thing wrong with Valan Luca is his crush on Nyneave.  Something is missing otherwise you would have the Mandred.<br />Which begs the question...What and Why do we know Valan Luca and his show so well?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 16:12:52
subject: <b>See What Happens When You Get Busy?</b>
body:
Don't check in for a few days and see some pretty wild and unsupported stuff.  Really, nothing worth responding to.<br /><br />Well, one comment:  Being insane does not mean you must be a gibbering, drooling, hooting maniac.  And anyone who puts that forth simply doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.  In fact, the most dangerously insane people can be frighteningly focused and calm.<br /><br />I've asked for people to put forth other options for Demandred that cover all the bases so well, that withstand the criticisms as well.  No on had, until Columbo's intriguing mention of Valen Luca.  I'll say intriguing because nobody's mentioned it before, and he DOES appear with annoying frequency, but...well, I'd like to see more discussion on this about WHY it might be Luca.  I'm willing to read some reasoned discussions.


created: 2002-08-23 17:42:09
subject: <b>Bayle Doman is Demmandred</b>
body:
I don't know that I really beleive that, but he reminds me of Valan Luca. He seemed like a minor charachter that I wondered why I was even reading about him, but then he keeps coming back. Like the energizer bunny.<br /><br />Again, I have to ask, how would Demmy get close to Rand by being Valan Luca? We have never seen Rand express much interest in traveling menageres, and Luca was planning on staying in Ebu Dar until spring.<br /><br />But Rand did run into Doman unexpectedly, so he may well again. Which is why it HAS to be Doman.<br /><br />Or maybe Demmy is Doman, Luca, AND Masema. That's it!! Finally, now we know. Oh, ya, he's also Norry and Taim and Ishy, as well. Plus the Dark One; its the only answer!<br /><br />God, it must be Friday. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I need to go home and lay down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 22:18:48
subject: <b>It CAN'T be Domon...We've had a Domon POV!!!</b>
body:
back in TGH or TDR where he received a letter and met ppl who urged him to go East, but instead went West.<br /><br />C'mon. We can't just start suggesting random ass people who Dem could be posing as...he isn't Domon for sure, he isn't Luca also for sure, which someone wanted to discuss so I will oblige.<br /><br />For some points, let's look at Luca's behaviour. He is flamboyant, extravagent, and full of himself. Okay, these neither rule him in nor out as Dem, so they mean nothing.<br /><br />His attitude towards Nyn. He liked her and wanted her to run off into the sunset with him. What if she had said yes? I can't see Dem irking out a meagre existance as menagerie leader with her, and also maintain all his &quot;proxies&quot; and various points of contact. Luca's position is most likely very time consuming in that he would have little chance to attend meetings, gather information and make the necessary visits that a Forsaken has to.<br /><br />What else about him? Well, he managed to avoid capture by the Seanchan by paying some member of the Blood a favor if I remember correctly. I guess that could be a little suspicious but certainly not enough to warrant being a F.<br /><br />And yes, he is to the south so events could have his mark on them, but no way. He hasn't done anything special, certainly not special if that is the chaos Dem reported back to the DO that he created.<br /><br />Of course, there is always the (slightly) more plausable idea that Luca <i>is</i> a proxie of Dem. This is easier to argue, but why would Dem use Luca? First, we have no evidence AT ALL that Luca is a DF. Second, he's just not that damn important...not important enough to waste the time and energy to control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 22:21:13
subject: <b>I know who Dem is!!!</b>
body:
He's Hu and/or Tad!!!<br /><br />Remember them? They're the Winespring Inn stable boys.<br /><br />Nah, that's always been a joke of mine. That was going to be my WoT related screen name...but I chose this one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 23:36:18
subject: <b>I believe</b>
body:
I fully agree with you but extend it by saying that I think that Masema is actually Demandred.  Did not the DO order Demandred to increase choas and let &quot;the lord of chaos rule&quot;?  I find it quite fitting b/c we have no idea where to find Demandred outside of the Taim theories (which I wholeheartedly discount).  Where better to serve the DO and achieve his own ends then by being a &quot;follower&quot; of the DR?  And you never get any PoVs from Masema, despite his being such an important part of the story.  No where else do the other Forsaken give PoVs from their &quot;secret lives&quot; before they are discovered.  It only adds weight, for those willing to look, that Masema being Demandred could quite conceivably be true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />life is like a wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />happy people live longer lives <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 14:43:00
subject: <b>Good theory, but...</b>
body:
I thought Masema was just nuts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Master of the Revels</i><br /><br /><b>If I can't dance, then I don't want any part of your revolution</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-29 22:41:56
subject: <b>Why A High-End Meeting?</b>
body:
One thing everyone is assuming is that this meeting in tGH with Ishmael was a &quot;high-end&quot; meeting.  Let's take roll call:<br /><br />A Shienaran lord:  Shienarans are renowned for their dedication to duty, fighting the Shadow and respecting the White Tower.  Any Shienaran darkfriend would have to be REALLY evil, or half-assed like Ingtar.<br /><br />Aes Sedai:  More than one present, and one was probably Liandrin, not a model darkfriend 'cause she later tried to take out Moghedien and ultimately ended up leashed by the Seanchan.  Maybe devoted, but not particularly good at her job.<br /><br />Bors:  Carridin was a lousy darkfriend.  He screwed up so many times I couldn't believe he made it all the way to the Path of Daggers.  <br /><br />Perhaps this was a meeting of half-hearts and screw-ups who needed close watching, a roomful of Omearnas, if you will.  Such darkfriends would think it was cool meeting with all the masks and secrecy, and they would be easy targets for smart Lightfriends, decoys from what the Shadow really had going on.  In that case, Ingtar is a perfect choice for this &quot;high-end&quot; meeting.<br /><br />Of course, even Jordan probably wasn't that subtle this early in the series.  My point is that the one guy we're SURE was there died for failure.  Another likely one was discarded for hers.  Ingtar was trusted just with opening a darned gate.  He got lucky by going out in a blaze of glory.<br /><br />Mesema's just a fanatic.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> He has his own way of showing support for the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />WoT While You Work.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-08-18 15:30:03
subject: <b>i don't think so...</b>
body:
the Dark One's original orders to the Forsaken were to kill Rand... why? because the DO knew he could resurrect Rand and turn him to his evil purposes... Rand currently isn't tied to the dark one by a 'black line' or anything so how is that possible? because the connection to the DO isn't needed for the DO to find your soul...<br />2nd... i'd REALLY like to know where this pool of dead souls thing is from 'cuz that really doesn't sound familiar at all...<br /><br />Thank the Creator for new theories though!! I thought I'd die waiting for another one to go from 'Pending' to 'New Theory'...


created: 2002-08-18 15:36:15
subject: <b>Fair enough, but</b>
body:
I always thought he wouldn't be back because I thought the DO would not have been pleased with him last time, and thought I'M NOT WASTING MY TIME RESURECTING THAT IDIOT, I CAN MANAGE WITHOUT TRAITORS AND INCOMPETENTS.  The DO, despite sparing Moghedion, isn't likely to be very merciful to those who betray him, whatever their reasons.  <br /><br />When he told Demandred that Asmo was dead, &quot;ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS&quot; or whatever the quote is, he gave the impression he was not pleased with Asmodean.  <br /><br />YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME and all that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 20:06:39
subject: <b>i don't think so either...</b>
body:
Rand also cut off Ishamael's ties, so by what you are saying, Ishamael couldn't have been resurrected as well.  I think Moridin is his reincarnation, so I would disagree.


created: 2002-08-18 22:04:39
subject: <b>The Greeks' idea of hell</b>
body:
Perhaps you are thinking of the hell that Orpheus went down into, or like the kind pictured in the Disney Hercules movie (terrible, by the way) where a huge pool of souls are flying about?  That's the only place I can think of that sounds like what you describe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 22:11:48
subject: <b>Ummmm, Lanfear? She had no ties that I was aware of.</b>
body:
She was resurected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 22:11:54
subject: <b>pool o' souls...</b>
body:
the pool of souls idea for the land of the WoT seems totally ridiculous to me... but the idea is there in a lot of other fantasy and stuff... i mean, mortal kombat does it too... but the point is, nothing in WoT hints that there is such a thing there...


created: 2002-08-18 23:25:17
subject: <b>ASMODEAN ISN'T DEAD</b>
body:
someone else raised this idea but i can't remember who has the copy right on this idea but:<br /><br />the exact line that tells of asmodeans demise was &quot;when death took him.&quot; death equals moridin.<br /><br />another thought. can the dark one bring back his followers from the age of legends? surely lew therin managed to get a few powerful baddies. <br /><br />and another thought. Who says the dark one can't bring back those balefired. if memory serves the voice to suggest this was none other then the father of lies. can we really trust anything he says?


created: 2002-08-18 23:29:01
subject: <b>There IS an Afterlife!</b>
body:
It was stated in an RJ Chat (to be found in the new sections of the FAQ) and It really annoyed me, because I had just finished a really good report for World Religions involving the reincarnation of souls on the Wheel of time, and while the quote didn't scrw me over completly, I did  have to tweak some things to make my argument and comparison work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 01:08:37
subject: <b>wow! some of these posts make my brains hurt!</b>
body:
Jay Jay, no, he is not still alive!<br /><br />&lt;the exact line that tells of asmodeans demise was &quot;when death took him.&quot; death equals moridin.&gt;<br /><br />There is more then one reference to a chat with RJ where people ask him this, and he is AGHAST(!) that people even think this! He considers the idea absurd. He says that we should know who killed Asmo the moment it happens, and Moridin hasn't shown up yet. <br /><br />Besides, his name means death in the old tongue, but the book is in English. And even though the chars in the book don't speak English, but rather, we can assume that the story is translated to us, the words don't come out of the mouth of a person in the book, they come from the author, or the narrator, or whatever, the all knowing 3rd person. Wordplay like how you mention only works if it is dialogue.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 01:15:00
subject: <b>oh and The_Wandering_Gambler</b>
body:
I don't know what exactly your trying to say, from your post, I could assume your trying to prove the existence of an afterlife in this &quot;report&quot; for school I assume, based on The Wheel of Time, a work of fiction. I don't know what your trying to say exactly really, but RJ is just a mortal, a gifted man with a wild imagination and an attention to detail, and he has a very crafty way with words, but he is just a man. I pray your report was just some kind of comparison between fiction and fantasy to religion, because from your post, it sounds like your signing up for the cult! lol. <br /><br />Ok, I post this in good fun, not trying to start a big debate here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 01:55:12
subject: <b>Good but no</b>
body:
10 out of 10 for orginality but I can't see this as being true.Firstly the Great Lord of the Dark says &quot;WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH&quot; when speaking of Asmodean.Unless he gets really desperate he won't be bringing him back,thats if he didn't get balefired in the first place.Secondly,the link with the Great Lord of the Dark as a means of re-incarnation is a good one except that this link is only to keep the taint from affecting the male Chosen.Thats about the extent of its use.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 03:32:31
subject: <b>I thought</b>
body:
Rand severed the tie Aginor had with the DO.  Wouldn't that mean he shouldn't have been ressurected?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="blue">T</font><font color="red">r</font><font color="yellow">i</font><font color="gray">g</font><font color="green">g</font><font color="purple">e</font><font color="orange">r</font></b><br /><font color="green">Warder to Spettio</font><br /><br /><br /><b><font color="red">FEAR.</font></b><br /><br />Mike Mackert stalks you on myspace.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 05:52:13
subject: <b>My first theory</b>
body:
Well this is my first theory and I want to address a few things. <br /><br />First this theory shook me off my deluded opinion that there won't be any mean guys like you that will shatter my theory into pieces in no time.<br /><br />Second pool is a word I used because I thought is best. It is not pool. It is a place that is outside time ( like the DO's prison). When one dies his soul goes there and when the Wheel needs a special soul for example a ta'veren or a humble woman that is made for housekeeping it will take it from there and put it in a newborn baby.<br /><br />Third Aginor did not get severed from his connection to the Dark One.<br /><br />Lastly o-bot undeceive from one of my greatest delusions. I have read the wot series three times and I ALWAYS thought that Ishamael dies in tGH. This morning o-bot and a friend of mine told me that he dies in tDR. I always thought that the Baal-Zamon in tDR is another Forsaken or an illusion that came from Rand's madness. Today I understood that the strike that Rand made in Ishamael's heart did NOT kill him.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S. This means that the DO has the same ability like the Wheel itself. To choose the soul that he wants.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 06:54:32
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
The part about a pool of souls may not be supported by direct quotes but I wholeheartedly agree with the notion as Ishmael was able to pick out Rands mother in an attempt of blackmail. Furthermore, there is a quote in the same chapter where Ishmael states that the realm of death is DO territory. I don't think he's lying here, just gloating.<br />What I fail to see is what differs Aginor's &quot;threads&quot; from asmodean's? Aginor is killed in tGH after Rand has severed his ability to channel as well as his ties to the DO.


created: 2002-08-19 08:29:55
subject: <b>ishamael</b>
body:
my opinion on how ishamael was able to use kari al'thor was that he used some sort of compulsive-like thing.  Basically something that delved into rand to find his weakness, his family or smthng... the reason I thought that was that Ishamael was NOT the DO and I can't believe that the DO would give Ishamael the power to find souls he wanted...it also seems odd that ishamael could use kari al'thor in a dream in the physical form rand is used to seeing her in...i doubt a person reincarnated looks the same they did in a previous life, ala rand and lews therin (lews therin wasn't bred from the aiel... so he wouldn't have their characteristic height, hair, eyes that rand does) <br /><br />additionally, I don't think that every soul is reborn as the pool of souls seems to suggest... because the WoT is infinite, every soul would be spun out more than once... I find that hard to believe... i don't have any alternate description of what happens, but i don't think the pool of souls works...<br /><br />finally, no one called you a moron or anything, so don't call anyone mean... if you don't want people's opinion on the ideas, don't post it... i for one am glad you did post it, because the idea is interesting, whether i agree with it or not, but if you don't care to hear our opinions, don't bother...


created: 2002-08-19 10:06:40
subject: <b>To imfunny</b>
body:
I NEVER EVER THOUGHT TO INSULT ANYBODY!!!!!!<br />ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS ARE GREAT!!!!<br />PLUS I LEARNED LOTS OF NEW THINGS FROM YOUR OPINIONS ( WHICH IS VERY GOOD FOR ME <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> )<br />I MEANT TO USE &quot;MEAN&quot; IN A NICE WAY!!!<br />SORRY FOR ANY MISUNDERSTANDING<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 10:57:44
subject: <b>Cocolino</b>
body:
Sorry for taking it poorly, I had just woken up when one of those damn telemarketers called... at 8am!!!.. I was in a bad mood, I apologize for taking it out on you...<br />Looking forward to your next theory


created: 2002-08-19 12:41:40
subject: <b>If my memory serves me...</b>
body:
correctly, didn&#180;t Rand cut of Ishys bond to the DO in the end of tEotW? Then this theory wouldn&#180;t work eh?


created: 2002-08-19 13:07:21
subject: <b>Again?</b>
body:
ASMODEAN WAS BALEFIRED BY GREANDAL!  ONLY OTHER OPTION IS LANFEAR OR MORAINE.  AND THAT ONLY BECAUSE ASMODEAN IS ASSUMING THEM BOTH DEAD AND GONE BEFORE HE GETS ICED.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 13:42:06
subject: <b>New Ideas</b>
body:
I would like to hear your opinion about this one. Some of my friends that read WoT think that the bonds only protect the male channelers from the Taint. However, if you reread the section after the struggle for the Choedan Kal Asmodean's reaction was very harsh. He starts screaming (to Lanfear) something like: &quot;Tell THEM!! Tell them I am still one of them!!&quot; I think that here under &quot;them&quot; he means the other Forsaken. Now why would Asmodean react like this. If the bonds only protected him from the Taint his reaction would not be like this for sure. This histerical reaction leads me to think that these bonds are the proof that he is a Forsaken. While he is without them he would be a TARGET for every other Forsaken. Then the excuse in front of the DO would be, &quot; But he did not have the bonds! He betrayed you!&quot; Voila hands clean.<br />I would really like to hear your opinion on this thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 14:10:53
subject: <b>Cocolino and Columbo</b>
body:
A couple of things.  First, a critique on your post.<br /><br />It appears as if it the main reason it was posted was because of the 'severing the black ties' element.  Regarding 'Pool of Souls'...putting forth a vague memory that you may have heard of it as evidence is not at all adequate support.  This was your first theory, so I'm critiquing, not slamming.  What IS obvious is that such a 'pool' is not a common reference, so you should make certain of the validity of your main point, or withhold posting. So...a suggestion...when posting, make sure of your evidence, or at least your strong reasons for the evidence.   <br /><br />The 'severing black ties' bit...<br />Interesting concept.  But a few holes or questions (some having been mentioned by others).  How would the DO recognize dead female forsaken (i.e. Lanfear).  Asmodean makes reference to the black ties as that which protected him from madness.  The females need no such thing.  <br /><br />Have we seen black ties on other male Forsaken? (Rahvin, Sammael, etc.)? I honestly cannot remember and am too lazy to look now.  This brings up a curious element of why Rand didn't try to sever them.  I think it could be explained by circumstances.  He NEEDED Asmodean at the time; He was enraged by Rahvin, he completely hated Sammael and he didn't know enough with Bel'al. <br /><br />Secondly, why have we (or Rand or other Asha'men) seen black ties on Dashiva?  Once he had died, perhaps he no longer had them?  Maybe it was the DO's means of control -- &quot;be a good (evil) boy and I'll give you the protection again&quot;?  Or...possibly, it was simply a slip on RJ's part.<br /><br />Columbo, regarding Graendal balefiring Asmodean...I agree it was Graendal, but I honestly ask: was it balefire?  Again, I don't exactly recall.  Why I ask is this:  Forsaken seem to have massive protection against common elements.  Remember Nynaeve engulfing Rahvin in flame?  And Aginor and his buddy at the Eye of the World?  Now, the DO's protection, fed by the black ties, could account for this.  Also with the fact that they may have had some defenses up early, even though they obviously did feel it.<br /><br />Yet Asmodean was completely surprised. Absolutely flummoxed.  Plus, we don't know if Lanfear's block was still on him.  He definitely knew he had changed, but I don't recall him commenting. And if that's the case, he could be fried by 'normal' fire just like anyone else -- and not have the power to do anything about it in defense. <br /><br />Again, this is a real question and not a challenge. Because if he was NOT balefired, that opens the door for him to come back, and while it's not quite a hunch, I would not be surprised if it happened (because that would open the door on several other nifty theories).  The main teaser about this was how much Jordan seemed to linger for a page or so on Asmodean have a whole new future ahead of him.  That would be an abrupt and frustrating end to a new and exciting subplot device.  Also, it'd be unnecessary to balefire him. Graendal could fry him several other ways, and if he didn't want him back, RJ could just say the DO was tired of him. <br /><br />Lastly, remember...Asmodean was 'twisted by his own weakness'...but so was Lanfear and several other dead Forsaken, yet they were returned.  For all the DO's power, he does NOT have so many servants of such power that he can just shuck them aside.  Asmodean didn't do anything that Lanfear wasn't trying for...and with far more justification.<br /><br />So...balefire for real or not?  Thanks for any feedback.


created: 2002-08-19 14:49:53
subject: <b>the afterlife</b>
body:
The DO says &quot;WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH&quot; when speaking of Asmodean.<br />  If there is a final death, then I'm assuming that there is some sort of afterlife.  For the heros bound to the wheel, we know their afterlife is to wait around until they are re-born.  [ aside: Are there villain-heros also bound to the wheel?  Can a person be reborn over and over again for doing something terribly bad? ]<br />  Anyway, I would assume that a &quot;final death&quot; would mean that one of two things (though I'm sure other folks could think of other afterlifish situations) :<br />(1) If the afterlife leads to re-incarnation, then the final death would be to prevent someone from being re-incarnated.  If the DO has this power, does he also have the power to keep heros from being re-born?  Is there some place TAR-ish where he could just go and kill everyone?  If he really would have power over Rand after Rand dies (which could be a lie or might not be), then wouldn't he be able to have the same power over other people who get reborn again and again?<br />(2) If the afterlife is a heaven/hell/both kind of place, how is it determined who goes where?  Can the DO touch both places, or just the hell-type place?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The rune in spoon falls moonly on the prune.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 15:50:08
subject: <b>Vashti....</b>
body:
Passage in question not at my fingertips but 1.he was taken out in an instant. 2. Also part of a scream hung on the air.  Both point to balefire, the second to a women using balefire.  <br /><br />Also if you remeber the next day Demandred went to SG and the DO new of the Death's of both Rahvin and Asmodean.  Demandred only new that Asmodean was missing. <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 20:04:02
subject: <b>As far as the Pool</b>
body:
It's true there is nothing really in the book to suggest a &quot;pool&quot; of souls, however I still believe there is something of the sort, and here is why:<br /><br />The Wheel weaves threads.  These threads are events, or lives (This is clear not only from the books, but also from &quot;The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time&quot; ).  In any case, it specifically says that somethings the Wheel (paraphrasing) chooses to end, some to begin, and some it choses to keep around; re-threading to It's purposes.    The only thing that can alter this is BaleFire, which completely removes the thread from the Wheel, without the Wheel's &quot;approval&quot;.  That is the very reason for Balefire being so dangerous to the Wheel.  It could destroy the Wheel entirely (Moiraine says this somewhere... I'll find where and post later), which is why it is basically a banned use of the power from the White Tower.  Anyway, since the Wheel can keep threads around and reweave them later (as it does with the Dragon, etc.) then obviously there is SOME form of afterlife (or waiting around period anyway).  We even have proof of this with Bridgette.  She was &quot;born&quot; before she was supposed to be born.  Her soul came from her afterlife waiting place. <br /><br />There is another point about the Wheel, which suggests something that none of you have really mentioned before, which applies to this theory, but perhaps should be one of its own.  If the &quot;soul&quot; of someone is really a thread of the Wheel, and is kept around until the Wheel choses to re-eave it into an Age or end it, then the DO really doesn't have power over the dead at all!  Think this through with me a minute.  If your soul is a thread on the Wheel, then the DO can't touch it (even in death since it's still a thread of the Wheel).  We know this becuase the whole story is based around the fear of the DO coming loose from his prison, because then he could &quot;touch&quot; the Wheel and remake it in his own image.  We KNOW the DO can't touch the Wheel (at least not yet), because then the world would cease to exist as those in RANDLAND know it today.  Hence, the DO cannot have power over death.  This suggests that he is either lying, or that his power is implied by the fact that without Rand there to stop him, he will eventually break free, and then he WILL have power over EVERYTHING.<br /><br />Also, this brings up one more statement, incase any were thinking about it.  Balefire is not a viable weapon against the DO, because B-fires deadliness comes from removing someone's thread from the wheel, but since the DO is separate from the wheel (like the Creator and the True Source that drives the Wheel) he therefore cannot be affected from Balefire. (This really isn't an important point, but just so we're all on the same page if it ever comes up).  AND balefire obviously can't be stopped by the OP, because otherwise Rahvin would have tried to block it versus jumping out of the way. (I think the same happens with Demandred (sp?) doesn't it?  He tries to avoid B-fire, not block it)<br /><br />i know it's a bunch of different thoughts, but the all piece together in some fashion... sort-of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">****Fortune for a Quarter... I LOVE Quarters!****<br /><br />****Give me a quarter and I'll tell you your fortune****</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 23:28:16
subject: <b>Balefire blocking?</b>
body:
Didn't Rand use Callandor in TDR to split Ishamael's beam of balefire, and thus avoid being toasted?  That's how I read it, anyway.<br /> As for the black cords, it seems they are only readily visible in TAR and places like that, such as the dimension used for Skimming.  When Rand cut Asmo off, he had to visualise something he had seen whilst they were both Skiming, but which was invisible to him at the time.<br /> When Rand cut Aginor off in TEOTW, I think he cut him off from the flow of pure <i>saidin</i> which Aginor was drawing from the eye himself, though I don't know why.  I'm not 100% sure about Aginor, but I do think that's the case for Ishy and Asmodean.<br /> Finally, Asmodean wasn't necessarily balefired, but it does seem the most likely option.  It gives the 'best fit' for the circumstances and the observed results.  However, Slayer may well have been the killer, as has been posted elsewhere.  The problem there is whether or not he could then have dragged the body into TAR with him, which is something we don't really know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 00:50:49
subject: <b>Robert Jordan has more class than to use stupid puns</b>
body:
like &quot;Death&quot; took him. That's ridiculous. <br /><br />Yes Asmodean will not be resurrected. Why? Because the Dark One's upset with him. We know the Forsaken are not omnipotent but is the Dark One also? He should have known that Asmodean did not betray him but was taken prisoner. Was he just angry at his faliure anyway?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 03:46:41
subject: <b>Asmodean's death</b>
body:
Okay this is just a simple idea. I haven't researched it nor I am sure whether to believe in it BUT.....<br />Is there a chance that the GHOLAM killed Asmodean?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 09:07:54
subject: <b>I don't think it could have been gholam</b>
body:
He hadn't shown up in the story yet when Asmo died. RJ said we should have known who killed him the moment it happened. If a char hadn't been introduced yet, it would have made it pretty darn hard to know.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 09:18:29
subject: <b>Windsor</b>
body:
Where have you read that? I would like to read it also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 09:35:38
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
The black cords appear only in that place of Skimming<br />Rand didn't see the black cords on Asmo, he 'envisioned' them.  He did see them on Ishy in book 1, but that wasn't in a normal place exactly, perhaps it had similar qualities to those of the skimming limbo.  Sammael Rahvin and Dashiva were seen only in Tel'aran'rhiod and the normal world.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 10:33:05
subject: <b>Evidence of Balefire</b>
body:
This theory has flaws pointed out by others, but the biggest flaw, IMO, is that we have reason to believe that Asmodean WAS balefired.<br /><br />Re-read the description of his death, and of other balefirings.  Whenever males balefire somebody, their body's colours invert.  Whenever females balefire somebody, their final cries &quot;hang in the air&quot;.  Asmodean's scream &quot;hung in the air&quot;.  It only seems weak until you actually read it.<br /><br />Second.  The Father of Lies is smart, not compulsive.  He wouldn't lie about his orders, and I see no reason for him to lie about not being able to step outside of Time.  The only known way to push somebody out of Time in WoT is with Balefire.  People get hung up about the DO and Ishy being liars.  They lie, but they also tell truth, especially when there's no reason not to.  Remember, Moghedien told truth about how the stars were suns in distant solar systems in her first confrontation with Nynaeve.  She serves the father of lies and is herself known for weaving webs of deceit, but she chatted about what we objectively know as truth while Nynaeve tried desperately to kill her.<br /><br />This goes among those who pointed out that the well/pool of souls was unlikely, that Ishy has several times had his dark ties severed and been resurrected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 12:21:31
subject: <b>It had to be Balefire</b>
body:
Think about this logically because we are missing a right-in-front-of-your-face point: Asmodean's body was NOT found, thefore there were no traces of his death present. <br /><br />If it was regular fire, think of the stench that would be left behind, not to mention the scorched stone. Somehow I don't see the culprit (Graendal) on her knees with a brush and bucket. Also, we know that it WAS a woman (the scream) and that they could channel (no trace of body, no Dreamwalkers would DARE step into TAR in the flesh). I, personally, feel that Graendal had direct orders from the DO and used the TP. If not, Avi would have sensed such as mass consumption of the Pwer and at least remarked on it. This also fits with the no-fire thing. Graendal would not waste her time using the TP (terribly addictive) to clean upthe mess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 13:37:46
subject: <b>I agree GG</b>
body:
Greandal used the TP otherwise Avi who Asom had just left would have sensed a women channeling.  It takes a huge amount of the OP to create Balefire.  Avi would have sensed this if the OP had been used.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />P.S. SLAYER HAD BIGGER CONCERNS THAN KILLING ASMODEAN.  SLAYER HAS BEEN TRYING UNSUCCESSFULLY TO KILL FAIN.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 14:28:30
subject: <b>Okie-doke</b>
body:
I rather assumed in general that he had been balefired (or True-Powered...but I'm not sure if that's 'complete' either), but I was trying to remain open to the possibility that he hadn't.  As I said before, it would've led to some nifty potential plot threads.<br /><br />However, regarding any smell of fire or burning or such, I seriously doubt that would turn Aviendha's head, as there just HAD been a battle recently. <br /><br />


created: 2002-08-20 17:46:37
subject: <b>Asmodean as a traitor</b>
body:
&quot;For all the DO's power, he does NOT have so many servants of such power that he can just shuck them aside. Asmodean didn't do anything that Lanfear wasn't trying for...and with far more justification.&quot;<br /><br /><br />But I don't think the DO knows anything about that. If he got a report from Graendal he knows that Asmodean went to the enemy and taught Rand tricks that possibly got Rahvin and Lanfear killed... but even if she knew Graendal wouldn't tell him about Lanfear's involvement with Asmodean - she was too involved with Lanfear herself to take that risk.<br /><br />Later Moridin spared Graendal but not Sammael because he was fooled by Graendal, he didn't know that it's Graendal who was trying to manipulate Sammael into betraying the DO's orders.  Greandal is the really devious one.<br /><br />Graendal deserved a mind-trap just as much as Lanfear and Moghedien did.  She's probably the biggest traitor of them all, going straight against the explicit orders of the DO by bringing Sammael to kill Rand.  And telling Demandred another thing...<br /><br />But the DO doesn't know that.<br /><br />I think Graendal and Lanfear agreed to work together for a while. Lanfear needed a female ally to face Rahvin and Sammael.  Graendal collaborated because it fitted her own plans to get rid of the 2 guys (when Lanfear was killed Graendal went on and found an alternative way to get rid of Sammael). Graendal's favored path to Naeblis is to get all the others killed.   I guess she intended to sell Lanfear as a traitor too, eventually. <br /><br />Of course, Graendal jumped on the perfect occasion to kill Asmodean. <br /><br />She most certainly went to SG to tell the DO about Asmo's death and treachery and get her pat on the shoulder for this deed, and if she didn't use Balefire but another killing device using the TP she probably brought the body with her.  That would certainly explain why the DO knew before Dem's visit the next day that Lanfear and Asmodean were dead and that Asmodean was a traitor (that possibly Rahvin, Lanfear and her were trying to stop teaching Rand, or whatever she invented).  <br /><br />Also, if Graendal collaborated in any way in Lanfear's scheme with Asmodean, such as providing his whereabouts to her (the DF merchants were Saldaeans (that trade a lot with Arad Doman), the girl was extremely &quot;pet&quot; like, Asmodean has met Graendal in Arad Doman earlier) that's all the more reasons to get rid of Asmodean a.s.a.p.  And to keep quiet about it except to the DO...  she's supposed to be the pleasure-first superficial one of the lot, incapable of subtility with Compulsion... not the cunning, cold-blooded and disciplined backstabber who wants them all out of her way before the DO's release.


created: 2002-08-20 23:56:16
subject: <b>very nice dom</b>
body:
I like that, prolly the best evidence I've seen yet for reasons Graendal took out Asmodean. I've always thought that myself. As for the method I'm still out on that, the current evidence seems to be this<br /><br />1) Instant death<br />2) Scream hangs in air<br />3) No evidence he was killed<br />4) Aviendha was not mentioned to feel anything<br /><br />Alright, the first three points lead towards female balefiring, very good, however the fourth seems to take away from this. The True Power is completely seperate from saidin and saidar, therefore you would believe that if it could make balefire it would not nessecarily have the same effect as using saidar to make balefire, in fact it would make sense not to. So options for method of death are<br /><br />1) Saidar Balefire, Aviendha is off and for some reason doesn't notice the power being used elsewhere in the palace, I have no clue why maybe she is unconcious, asleep, lots of random female channelers hanging out or something.<br />2) True Power balefire or some other true power method of killing has the same side effects as saidar balefire and leaves no trace.<br />3) Asmodean's scream just hung in the air after he was moved out either to T'A'R or skimmed away.<br />4) Some saidar method of death was used and saidar cleaned after while the scream hangs for some reason, I could see a gateway being missed by Aviendha if she was in another part of the palace involved in something and that would require more power than any method of death + cleaning needed.<br /><br />hmm, that looks like enough<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 02:53:47
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
Asmodean's not dead, he just had an out-of-series experience. Right now Asmodean's behind muh tool shed a whakin' away. I ain't never seen a Forsaken could awhack so much...Like a spider monkey...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 03:27:24
subject: <b>Strange</b>
body:
Okay... today I read the whole blackboard and something strange struck me. When it isn't to balefire everyone seems to think that Asmodean was killed with a fireball. ( everyone says - there will be smell, ashes, burnt) Well I was wondering couldn't the murderer use lets say a knife made of Air and strick Asmodean's heart for example?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 09:36:44
subject: <b>Balefire vs. Normal Fire</b>
body:
Columbo,<br />My guess is that when comparing another method to Balefire, its very easy to associate FIRE, since that's part of the word with which we are comparing it.<br /><br />i.e., &quot;Why Balefire instead of normal fire?&quot;<br /><br />Also, perhaps it's possibly a little bit of event association...in the only other two times we've seen a female channeler (of whatever strength) harm a male Forsaken, it's been with fire (Moiraine in book 1 and Nynaeve with Rahvin).<br /><br />One kink in the True Power argument vis a vis Aviendha's awareness:  Avy is very powerful, but not very well skilled.  Graendal could readily have inverted her weaves to prevent just such notice.   Graendal actually was quite bold to venture into that area.  It could be surmised that she was cautious in what she did.<br /><br />Graendal rocks :-)


created: 2002-08-21 11:56:55
subject: <b>That's a good thought, Vashti</b>
body:
On the inverting weaves thing. However, I seem to remember that inverting hides the weaves from the sight of another woman, but wouldn't she still feel it? Truth told, I don't remember exactly how that works. Also, it takes a MASSIVE amount of the OP to create balefire and, skilled or not, Avi would have felt that.<br /><br />As for regular fire being the culprit, I submit Rahvin's death. Nyn pulled on Moggy's power until she felt the pleasure begin to turn to pain for her. With Forsaken strength (equal to her own <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) she unleashed the hottest fire she could on Rahvin. It was only on him for a second and half of his face and clothes  were burned off. Think, though, of how long even fire that hot would take to kill. Asmo would have gotten out a SERIOUS scream in that time, not one that was faint and hung on the air. BTW, remember that fire was created using as much of the OP as a Forsaken could hold. It would be sensed as readily as balefire strength.<br /><br />As well, again, it would leave a stench unimaginable. Have you ever smelled burnt hair? lol. It STINKS something awful. Can you imagine burnt flesh? My goodness, that would be noticed post haste. As well, as I said already, the cleanup would tkae hours by hand. That's out. It would take a steady use of the OP. That's out because Avi woul;d have noticed, inexperienced as she was. What we're left with is what has been presented: TP balefire.<br /><br />Interesting idea on the effects of TP balefire though. I will think on that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 12:33:45
subject: <b>Aviendha sensing Graendal's channeling</b>
body:
I completely agree with the reasonning, Graendal is way too cautious to risk being detected by a woman while Rand is nearby.  Whatever she did, she was cautious with her weaves.<br /><br />Even if she was surprised by Asmodean, she must have been perfectly ready to face anything or anyone and aware of the dangers.  Whether she remained in Caemlyn in the aftermath of Rahvin's death to assess Rand's next move and to kill Asmodean (my belief) or came to Caemlyn &quot;by accident&quot;(the pantry being her usual secret &quot;doorway&quot; into Rhavin's palace and the infamous servants her pantry's &quot;guards&quot;, perhaps) no doubt she was ready to strike, and cautiously... if only out of respect for Rahvin's hideout.<br /><br />And Graendal definitely rocks!  With Moridin and to a lesser extent Semirhage it's the one I really wish Jordan will keep alive and kicking until TG.  My guess is that her next &quot;target&quot; will be Demandred.  With Moridin more and more solidly in charge, Demandred probably look to her like a bleeding animal who put his foot in a tank full of piranhas... and I think she will rise to the occasion and push him a bit.  It already showed a bit in her POVs in WH.


created: 2002-08-21 15:28:17
subject: <b>Completely unrelated thought</b>
body:
Graendal certainly seemed to know her way around Caemlyn, didn't she?<br /><br />I mean if someone said that Morgase didn't know where a particular pantry was, i her own palace, I wouldn't be shocked. <br /><br />Why would a high noble go to certain, common places?  <br /><br />Also, I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that Graendal was expecting Asmodean.  Why should she?  It was practically a spur of the moment decision of Rand to go to Caemlyn.  It would be VERY understandable that he would NOT bring a tethered Forsaken when he goes off to fight another Forsaken.  Even the trickle of power that Asmodean could manage could perhaps sway the issue between Rahvin and Rand.  All it would take would be a momentary distraction, or a very minor illusion that obscures Rand's sight at a bad moment.  Too much of a risk to make such an assumption that would result in devious Graendal lurking around a Balefire fight. <br /><br />I think Graendal was what she always is -- ever the opportunist.  And the True Power is never guaranteed (except for Moridin currently), so it's likely she would've used an inverted weave for something such as Columbo said:  a dagger of Air, filling his lungs with ice or something.<br /><br />But it still doesn't explain why she knows the back halls of the Palace so well.


created: 2002-08-21 19:31:16
subject: <b>Vashti....</b>
body:
You have me mixed up with Cocolino ( comments on using air as a knife not mine).  <br /><br />Also to the person who suggested that Avi might have been sleeping or maybe another female channeler in the area as there had to be lots.  You are wrong on both points.<br /><br />1. Asmodean was leaving Mat and Avi's presence and couldn't have been more than 50 feet away on the other side of a door when he was taken.  Not to mention Rand in a room with Bashere on the second floor above where Asmo gets popped.<br /><br />2.  As far as Rand and Avi are aware there isn't another female channeler in the city at the time.  <br /><br />In conclusion Avi is awake, close and knows enough to sense the amount of power it takes to create balefire.  Which if you aren't already aware takes a huge amount of the power to create. <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 22:45:48
subject: <b>Cords the key?</b>
body:
Didn't Rand cut the black cords from one of the Forsaken in TEOtW?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mercy!&quot; cried Gandalf: &quot;if the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What do you want to know?&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 02:14:08
subject: <b>Cocolino</b>
body:
I searched for a little bit today, using &quot;robert jordan interview asmodean&quot; as a search sting in google, and couldn't find an exact quote. But if you use that search string in google, you will find plenty of references to him saying somthing like:<br /><br />highpockets says: <br />Any hints on who killed Asmodean? <br /><br />RJ:<br />The Asmodean question? I've said time and again that there is enough evidence for you guys to figure out who killed Asmodean.  I have, since Asmodean's death, put in a few more clues. The evidence is there, if not exactly listed with flaming arrows pointing to it. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.<br /><br />So, where did he actually say &quot;we should have known when it happend&quot; I cannot find. But, then again, he kinda hints that he doesn't understand why we didn't know at the time of death, read it, slowly. <br /><br />The whole fact that he has added more hints to tell us kind of says we should have known right off the bat. There is a welth of infomation on this, if you search for it. I can give links to that. Here is one: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/WOTFAQ/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html#grn<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 02:24:34
subject: <b>One more thing</b>
body:
I would just like to say, that every counter argument on the link I just posted, is W E A K, and purely speculative IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 09:10:07
subject: <b>Guys, you're assuming balefire is a big event.</b>
body:
Channelling large amounts of balefire, well, that's difficult.<br /><br />Channelling an itty-bitty balefire of one microsecond might not take so much power as one of their power-light bulbs, and could go undetected.  Remember, Moiraine, FAR weaker than any forsaken or most main-character channellers, was able to balefire on a couple of occasions.  It does not take barrels of power to balefire somebody, even though it IS a powerful effect.  It is just difficult to weave, and a relatively unknown weave at that.<br /><br />I'm not saying it isn't possible that it is a massive undertaking, it just seems to me that evidence points to small balefire as being a relatively power-efficient method of destruction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 15:55:34
subject: <b>Uggg</b>
body:
Ok...<br /><br />Someone said that Mat and Avi were nearby, maybe 50 feet away, when Asmo was killed.  If so, wouldn't they have heard a scream?  Especially a lingering scream?  I would imagine Asmo was pretty isolated at the time of death.<br /><br />No, moridin (death) did not &quot;take him&quot;.  He is dead.  RJ said so himself.  Lets have no more arguments about that.<br /><br />Why is everyone convinced it had to be balefire?  Because his scream lingered?  Screams linger.  No one likes to use Balefire.  Even the forsaken avoid it.  Rhavin uses it only as a last resort, out of fear.  It seems unlikely that one of them would use it on Asmo when another method would be just as effective and less dangerous.


created: 2002-08-22 16:24:50
subject: <b>RE: somebody's master</b>
body:
1.Moraine was considered above average in strenght when compared with other aes sedai of her age.<br />2.Moraine also had the use of an angreal.  Which if you are not familiar with increase the amount of power you can hold.<br /><br />I hope I don't have to respond again.<br /><br />It takes alot of the power to create balefire.  Which has been mentioned in the books on several occasions.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 09:14:13
subject: <b>Columbo.</b>
body:
Old buddy old pal...I thought you were a nice guy? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  You're being rude.  But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.<br /><br />1. Moiraine was above average for puny weaklings (other aes sedai of her age) who had never balefired before and thus she was not good at it.<br />2. Moiraine was tired and relying almost completely on her angreal on at least one of those occasions.  And if I recall correctly (and I'm not sure I do, don't kill me) she didn't have it one her another time she balefired.<br /><br />I hope you do respond again.  I enjoy intelligent debate more than some of these other people who drop off their thoughts, which are sometimes stupid, and leave.<br /><br />It is difficult to create balefire, although with a rod of balefire, not a lot of effort seemed to go into the users (some of which were Black Ajah that we can presume were of average power).<br /><br />If you could quote me one instance where it specifically says it &quot;takes a lot of power to create balefire&quot; I will give up.  But you aren't allowed to use one of those wrist-sized beam arguments.  Balefire takes variable amounts of power, based on Tar'angreal, skill in weaving, and magnitude of the weave.  Presumably, a Forsaken has access to all three.<br /><br />I'll admit that the arguments I gave were incomplete.  That's because I submitted a theory recently with the complete arguments and didn't feel like retyping them all.  Mostly, they were reminders for the benefit of those who have been on the site a lot.<br /><br />Oh, and I'm YOUR master, not somebody's master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />I have been arguing this one as long as this messageboard has been here (actually, at first I had no idea and didn't care what killed Asmodean, but I just LISTENED to arguments), and I bring ancient yet proven arguments back to bear against a new crop of unbelievers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 12:21:10
subject: <b>RE: somebody's master.....</b>
body:
hahahahah.....alright you have my attention.  Sorry for being rude.  As to your name change, I just can't type it in the way you do.  Something wrong with my computer maybe.  <br /><br />I will look up for you, some facts.  In the meantime please answer me this. Is a trickle of balefire ( enough to light a light bulb) enough to kill? If it is, does it take longer?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 22:59:22
subject: <b>You're forgetting something</b>
body:
In tEotW, Rand cuts Ishamael's thread, and yet he (after eventually being killed) is resurrected as Moridin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat for President!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 00:51:53
subject: <b>Good thread</b>
body:
As this has turned into two different threads wrapped up into one, I will respond to something a few people have brought up regarding a so called immunity or resistance to fire among the Chosen.  If you recall the battle between Rand and Rahvin in TAR, when Moghedien and Nynaeve then appear, I think that many people are missing one extremely important detail.  The women were there in spirit, and the men were there in the flesh.  Remember that Moghdien was in panic over the fact that they were FAR weaker due to this difference (yes I know that they are weaker anyway, but this was a very obvious difference).  Therefore, I do not think that this situation applies in stipulating a resistance to fire.  The fire that Nynaeve threw at Rahvin was not as strong due to the fact that Rahvin was there in the flesh and Nynaeve was not.<br /><br />As to the other points mentioned, I agree that Graendal most likely killed Asmodean, and also agree that there is something more to the black cords than simply removing the taint.  Just wish I could figure out what it is exactly,and the pool of souls just doesn't work.  Good theory though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace is only found through victory, and fools aspire to peace and freedom without cost.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-02 13:07:49
subject: <b>Being Macho are we</b>
body:
You are forgetting the women Forsaken Lanfear is reincarnated so we know that the It cant be the ties becuse the female forsaken dont have them.<br />and dosent Rand cut Arigor/Balthamels bond in the green mans place.<br /><br />


created: 2003-07-04 07:32:54
subject: <b>Asmodeans not dead</b>
body:
Hes just frozen.......and when we find a cure for cancer we're gonna thaw him out.  And hes gonna be p*ssed.  How p*ssed?  Have ya ever taken a cold shower.  Well try multiplying that by 15 billion times.  Thats how p*ssed Asmos gona be<br />Long live the black tie events and social organisations<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><br />Engaged to be married to her very own Mr Rob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="#ff0000">Once again I put the blame squarely on tight pants</font></b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-07 21:52:37
subject: <b>Its almost definitely not Graendal</b>
body:
NO offense to any one, but even though I agree with the Graendal killed Asmo theory, theres one small flaw. At this point most people believe that either Graendal or Lanfear did it, those are by far the two majorities. Now here is the flaw, I read(can't remember where I think it might have been on the faq or maybe on another site) that RJ stated quite clearly that he likes to see us squirm(one of the many reasons he has not revealed the killer yet)and that a vast majorities of the theories about Asmo's killer he  has seen are INCORRECT. Considering that the Graendal theory is one of the most followed, I think it is safe to say that Graendal is not the killer<br /><br />as an afterthought, anybody thought about the possibilities of it being a person who does not serve the DO?


created: 2005-11-22 01:16:04
subject: <b>Ok, here goes... ::whips out chalkboard::</b>
body:
No.<br /><br />The Dark One stated very specifically in a conversation (I think it was with Ravhin) that he cannot pull back souls that have been balefired because he has to do so at the moment of death. Since balefiring someone kills them before, it is essentially the only way to prevent the Dark One from claiming a soul. If you don't believe me, read the conversation for yourself. I suggest you use the fine searching facilities on this site for that.<br /><br />Also, there is no stated restriction upon whether the souls the Dark One holds onto must be Darkfriend. Granted, it would make sense, but don't go on the assumption that such is the case. RJ loves to see us squirm, yes, but his methods always involve us overanalyzing the information he gives us. Besides which, the Graendal theory is not most theories - it's is simply the most followed one. And just because it's the most-followed theory doesn't make it wrong, either. Sometimes the truth is just that obvious.


created: 2006-01-03 10:38:49
subject: <b>Ashes and Stench</b>
body:
Lets assume he was killed with Fire.  First one could place an inverted weave of Wind to gag him so he couldn't be heard as he died.  Then he is incenerated.  A few threads of wind to blow away the stench and ashes.  Last Earth to cover the scorching, you just have to change it's chemical form, the darkening is simply the affect of a chemical reaction to the heat, just chnge it back to how it was before, all it would take would be an inverted weave of fire, an inverted gag of wind, and precision channeling to make the other weaves hard to sense.


created: 2002-08-20 13:25:54
subject: <b>They want it all</b>
body:
They just started in the west and started moving east. I don't really think there is a legitimate correlation. They haven't gone to the Two Rivers or Berlon. And it would seem they are readying themselves to have another go at Illian. And there is alsp speculation that the seige is from the rebels, not the Seanchan. Hopefully, CoT will tell us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 13:38:17
subject: <b>That's stretching it a little far</b>
body:
The problem I see with this theory is the fact that the Seanchan have to attack from the West! That's where they are coming from. They wouldn't attack from the East. <br /><br />The Siege of Tear is an interesting little tidbit of information and this may very well be the Seanchan but couldn't it also be the rebels?  <br /><br />Well it's an interesting theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 14:36:22
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
This is a really interesting theory. I don't think I agree with it, but still, it's amazing how much info you must have had to look up to create it!


created: 2002-08-20 16:42:41
subject: <b>Elayne</b>
body:
One other problem with this theory.  It would in no way help Elayne.  The Seanchan would not leave a channeler on the throne.  Morgase, they likely did not know about.  But Elayne is too openly Aes Sedai.


created: 2002-08-20 18:33:36
subject: <b>Their are a lot of similarities.</b>
body:
Their are a lot of similarities.  Consider that both Alamasan and Rand proclaimed themselves in about the same area.  There was also an invasion of Trollocs during Hawkwings reign. I do believe.  I have often wondered if the Trolloc wars and Hawkwings reign weren't reflections (or shadows) of a time when TG occured at these times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 21:04:29
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I like the idea. I never thought about it really, but I also have to agree with a post above that they are forced to attack from the west. Also, i don't think the Stone of Tear would last long against a siege by the SeanChan. While it took Guire a while, and he never succeded, he didn't have the backing of damene and the ability to continually use the OP in attacks. Yes, I know he could channel, but that doesn't do the same as having several channelers attack. But at any rate, I don't think the siege is by the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 22:57:30
subject: <b>where does mat fit in.</b>
body:
I personally think mat is going to have some major influence on the Seanchan invasion. Remember he has memories of these world conquests already mentioned. If anyone can stop the seanchan mat can.<br /><br />jordan is pretty well versed in military history and interestingly enough the same places are often fought over due to their stratigic importance(the sight of ancient troy for example). Perhaps the names of places have changed, but terrain changes very slowly. <br /><br />On the pattern of conquest, someone invading tarabon isn't going to turn around and take the aiel waste. The seanchan is spreading like a fire taking whatever it comes to next.<br /><br />But the ramifications of Suldam being able to channel is going to stop the seanchan before they get too far. But maybe as the dragon ties the east to the north the seanchan will tie the west to the south...


created: 2002-08-21 02:50:07
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
This is a really good observation and makes a very good theory.Maybe the parallel between Guaire Amalasan's and the Seanchan's conquest is that the extent of territory captured by Amalasan before Harkwing stopped him will be the same as the Seanchan capture before Rand stops them.It is pure speculation but it sounds good to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 10:05:10
subject: <b>Smaller Patterns</b>
body:
I think the idea that this is another case of history repeating itself works well in this context.  Remember that Jordan has stated numerous times in the books that history does not repeat itself exactly with each turning of the wheel.  There are always deviations, and deviations towards the beginning of an event can have profound effects on the rest of the event.  However, it is entirely reasonable to think that the correlations between the Second Dragon's conquest and the Seanchan invasion are simply because of geography.  We'll have to wait and see how this all turns out.  I like the idea of history repeating itself within an age though, like smaller patterns within the larger tapestry formed by the Wheel, so I'm willing to give this a shot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 14:10:52
subject: <b>Seanchan Blacklist</b>
body:
I have to disagree that Rand would allow the Seanchan to get however far Amalasan did.   First off, in WH he cleansed the source so now he doesn't have to worry about going mad from the taint when he touches the source.  He will go all out, with the ashaman he can trust, against the Seanchan if he believes he cleansed the source and try to scour them from the Westlands or just back to Tanchico.  Secondly, the Seanchan are going to have a fight on their hands if they enter Murandy what with the Borderlanders and the Band of the Red Hand and the claiments of the throne of Andor,  who will watch the Borderlanders until they do something foolish, being in the same area.  So, to wrap everything up the Seanchan will see that going through Murandy is tantamount to suicide no matter how many damane they have when they hear of  3 maybe 4 armies in Murandy, more than likely they will gather all of their forces and head for Illian then Tear, if of course Rand doesn't tear them to shreds.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-21 16:58:41
subject: <b>Some very interesting points</b>
body:
while I think I disagree with the main body of this theory, the whole parallel between Guaire Amalasan and the Sanchan, I think the were some other smaller, very interesting theories in this post.  I quite liked the idea of the Sanchan besieging the Stone of Tear and then propping up Lord Darlin as a puppet.  Otherwise I have a hard time seeing him becoming a king and fulfilling Min&#8217;s prophecy.  Had the theory focussed more on that I would have really liked it.  In some ways I also liked the idea of the Sanchan taking Caemlyn and using Elayne and Queen, which would at least end that plotline quickly&#8230;however I really don&#8217;t see Elayne allowing herself to be used that way, nor do I see the Sanchan suddenly appearing in the middle of the continent.   For them to attack Tear however is entirely believable.  More so I believe than those rebels.  If the stone has never fallen before Rand took in the DR, I seriously doubt the rebel would be able to, or even try.  However the Sanchan, wielding the One Power as a weapon and with the ability to drop soldiers into the stone using raken could quite easily take the stone in a similar manner as they did the Fortress of Light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--~&lt; Robbert <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Hawking &gt;~--<br /><br />&quot;The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind&quot;<br />&quot;killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 04:56:40
subject: <b>The Seanchan wouldn't use Darlin</b>
body:
as his title is High Lord, they would think it means he is claiming to be one of the Blood (narrowminded as the Seanchan are), ans so he must die.  This is not my ideabut that of one of their generals in his POV in TPOD.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 08:30:11
subject: <b>WOW, the work that went into this theory is very impressive.</b>
body:
You've presented a very persuasive case that the Seanchan Invasion mirrors Guaire Amalasan's conquests of the Westlands. It could be the case or not. Brilliant theory. I'll be interested to see if the CoT proves or disproves your most interesting theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 12:22:06
subject: <b>Shinowa</b>
body:
Suroth knew about Morgase and her &quot;visit&quot; at White Tower and she told her that. That was just one of the arguments she used to make Morgase accept what was &quot;offered&quot; to her.


created: 2002-08-24 21:05:38
subject: <b>reasons why .....</b>
body:
There are a couple of reasons why the seanchan would start invading from the west.<br /><br />1) has already been mentioned, in that, you wouldnt start from the east, when the west is so much closer. And <br /><br />2) If you want to win a battle or conquer a nation, the best way to do it is to pick a nation that is already in uproar, and already at war with somebody else. This way you can walk right in and conquer both nations because they cannot build a big enough army, cos they have already lost heaps in the war between the 2 nations, this means Tarabon and Arad Doman, who have been fighting for the last 500 years or so.<br /><br />Thats my theory anyway !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-08 14:29:23
subject: <b>Not in Tear</b>
body:
With the Ath`an Miere completely filling Tear`s harbor, the Seanchan don`t have a prayer.  Would love to see them try!  Don`t forget all the Windfinders Mat freed.  The Seanchan are no longer going to rule the seas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 15:42:06
subject: <b>hehehe</b>
body:
the whole sexually frustrated stuff had me laughing pretty good. Finally a humorous theory that is actually humorous! <br /><br />Well done, I vote agree!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 15:49:56
subject: <b>Damn Mrs. RJ to hell!!!</b>
body:
If she was more like my wife, the whole series would be done by now! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 16:09:14
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
*NM*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 06:32:23
subject: <b>THIS IS THE BEST THEORY I HAVE EVER READ</b>
body:
Does this mean if Rand has all three girls at once (like we all hope he does) he will be so totally satisfied that Lews will be blasted out of his head for good.<br /><br />personally i hope not. Lews has style.


created: 2002-08-24 19:16:59
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I'm not sure who is more frustrated Wombat.  You or Mr. Jordan.  Cause only someone totally frustated themselves would come up with this one.


created: 2002-09-18 21:28:19
subject: <b>Amazing</b>
body:
Woo! Fun theory, we should test it...of course if we did just stick him in a room that would pose a problem...we'd all be staring at him, would make it hard to write I imagine.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> redushab <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-07 13:26:32
subject: <b>Hilarious!</b>
body:
This is one of the only humorous theories that I actually found funny! But are you sure that it is not you who is frustrated?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I LOVE MAT!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">&quot;A kiss is a lovely trick designed by nature to stop speech when words become superfluous.&quot;</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 15:52:59
subject: <b>LOL.......</b>
body:
So maybe if we do trap him he migth aswell forget how god sex is so thanks to RJ's wife. By the way... good one you have talent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">KLK_vi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />&quot;Eye of twigligt give us sight-Take our offer,give us migth-Make our powers tears of nigth&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It is futile to resist the spiral of death&quot;<br /><br />&quot;No matter wot you do just !!!!PLOP!!!! it&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 16:28:40
subject: <b>that was brilliant</b>
body:
damn, you are a genious. however... i personally dont hope rand gets all three girls at once. that's just sick...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 14:24:17
subject: <b>lews therin's voices</b>
body:
what if lews therin were in control while rand and the ladies were makin' whoopie. would that force jordan out of both their heads? that would be like destroying the creator and unraveling the pattern. wicked. of course, jordan would never write that into the story, because if it happened, he wouldn't be in lews therin's head anymore and rand couldn't be in his head anymore, so he wouldn't have known that any of the WoT happened in the first place. trippy theory, dude. trippy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">That's right! An Aielman with a sword!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />I fear Perrin has fallen to the dark side <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-22 15:31:57
subject: <b>ROFL...</b>
body:
Ha!!! That ranks up there with the end of the series being Rand, Mat, and Perrin wake up from a massive drug trip and then the page ends and that it was all one huge joke... wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 01:00:57
subject: <b>The Vileness</b>
body:
I do believe that he was gentled during, what Cadsuane refers to as &quot;The Vileness&quot; New Spring etc. The Black Ajah flurry of gentlings to try to take out the Dragon Reborn. If you don't know what I am talking about<br /><br />http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html<br /><br />That explains the whole thing in depth. I may be wrong. Elaida is not Black Ajah but she may have been unknowing accomplice. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 01:02:16
subject: <b>One more thing</b>
body:
A quote from the FAQ<br /><br />One of the victims of this 'search and destroy' directive was Thom's nephew Owyn. Presumably, Owyn is among the gentled men who do not appear in the Tower records Elaida and Alviarin are discussing in ACOS. Elaida and Alviarin later discuss that merely knowing that there are channeling men who do not appear in the records is dangerous. The danger likely stems from the notion that because they are not listed means that you would only know from personal knowledge, which would suggest some involvement. Elaida's comments seem to imply that she participated in at least one of those missions [ACOS: Prologue, Lightnings, 22], and Toveine confirms this [TPOD: 26, The Extra Bit, 513].<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 03:10:13
subject: <b>Moiraine's letter for Thom</b>
body:
Thom has already recieved Moiraines letter.Rand gave the letter to Mat in LoC when he sent Mat to keep Elayne safe until she returned to Andor.Mat passed the letter on to Thom when he arrived in Salidar.


created: 2002-08-24 04:36:11
subject: <b>The above is correct...</b>
body:
Thom got the letter in LoC. We just don't know what's in it - when Mat asked Thom, he also asked if Thom had rescued the woman the letter was from, or left her. Thom says he left her and walks away. While this is informative concerning Thom's feelings towards Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> it doesn't actually tell us what was in the letter. Maybe Thom will get a PoV in CoT?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 06:27:14
subject: <b>I agree whole heartedly with this theory.</b>
body:
and I like your style. No mucking about and straight to the point. Obviously the Reds have been up to something dodgy besides getting thoms nephew but Elaida was in on it and we know from tDR that thom believes Elaida is none too fond of him. I hope thom skins that bitch alive and uses her skin as strings on his harp. (or is that a bit excessive).


created: 2002-08-24 14:45:02
subject: <b>The FAQ - Who gentled Owyn</b>
body:
Why don't you people check our own FAQ here at wotmania.<br /><br />We've had it covered for 10 months now.<br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/faqtopic.asp?ID=23


created: 2002-08-24 18:48:17
subject: <b>i think you guys are missing the point this theory makes</b>
body:
the FAQ tells who may be involved. This theory and my support of it is about elaidas MOTIVATION. the point is she did this to get to thom.


created: 2002-08-25 23:35:02
subject: <b>Rand did give Moiraine's letter to Thom. . . . . . . .</b>
body:
When he sent Mat to Salidar he gave Mat the letter, who in turn gave it to Thom, we even watched Thom read it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 07:32:01
subject: <b>No that's not true</b>
body:
The real reason she gentled the young boy (brace yourself) she found out he can channel <br /><br />something about her being the red Ajah<br /><br /><br /><br />by the way Thom is a hero of the horn<br /><br />read the chapter about the party rand went two in tGH for conclusive evidence<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 14:12:21
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
No.  Their is no connection.  Sorry but I don't agree with your theory.  Coincidense.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 14:21:14
subject: <b>This theory being accurate would just mean that . . .</b>
body:
Elaida had executed an indirect and effective machination base on careful observation of the relevant facts and personalities involved which turned out exactly as she had intended and accomplished her goals perfectly.<br /><br />Given that this is Elaida we&#8217;re talking about, I&#8217;m going to have to vote no on this one.<br />


created: 2002-08-26 19:06:22
subject: <b>by they way</b>
body:
exactly HOW is Thom a hero of the horn? SUPPORT your statement, dont just tell people you think its obvious SOMEWHERE in TGH...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 22:23:02
subject: <b>the letter</b>
body:
Didn't Thom already read that letter? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 19:28:09
subject: <b>Following orders of Red Ajah</b>
body:
She was definitely in on those Stillings, and the result re Thom and Morgase suited her purpose of control.  Whether she made the original decision, we don`t know.  <br /><br />                  very good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-30 08:41:14
subject: <b>so....</b>
body:
so when moiraine gives thom the names and says do what you want to them as revenge, and elaida is one,does that mean thom will mtake down elaida?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 15:05:56
subject: <b>this is an excellent idea</b>
body:
but I have a few questions.  The One power could not be used in Far Madding.  So how could Fain create illusions, if he was not using the One Power?  You said Fain gained Sammael's power, but Sammael didn't have the power to create illusions without the one power.  Therefore, I am not sure how well this theory plays out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 18:37:38
subject: <b>Wait a minute...</b>
body:
I always thought Fain's illusion was the two blackened bodies laying on the floor. I thought the two people who came up the stairs were <i>actually</i> Gedwyn and Torval, else how could he recreate them talking about waiting for the others...maybe I need to re-read that chapter.<br /><br />Plus, I never even considered the two bodies to be an illusion, but rather just two people who Fain killed and made unrecognisable from the dagger...Rand thinks to himself that he couldn't recognize the two bodies. I only thought that he created an illusion in the first place because so many people (on this site) said that he did, otherwise I just would have thought that he was being clever...which he is exceptionally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-24 18:41:04
subject: <b>I like this theory but...</b>
body:
i have to disagree. The post just before me makes a good point.<br /><br />but i also happen to think sammael isn't dead. look at the theorys about sammy. He's up to something really sneaky.


created: 2002-08-24 19:43:26
subject: <b>re:fains power</b>
body:
sammael is dead for sure, RJ said so. But im thinking Fain's powers were not so much tied up to shadar logoth. Mordeth brought that evil there in the first place. Mordeth is a renegade elfin or aelfin whatever those are. Im kinda thinking he may even be more powerful now that SL is gone.


created: 2002-08-24 20:27:02
subject: <b>interesting possibilities</b>
body:
If Fain's power is tied up with Shadar Logoth somehow, it raises interesting questions now that the city has been destroyed.


created: 2002-08-25 00:43:48
subject: <b>eh...</b>
body:
I don't like it, first Fain has been growing in power ever since he left Shadar Logath, but he is free of the place. That was the whole thing behind someone coming to Shadar Logath and leaving with Mordeth's soul. I don't think whatever happens there will affect Fain/Mordeth at all. If it did the whole Fain plotline would be thrown into conundrums in a bad way.<br /><br />The whole illusion thing was due to Fain but he didn't gain that power from Sammy's death, if he had gained some sort of power from him due to his soul it wouldn't be illusion. Sammy used that rarely compared to other Foresaken (Graendal, Mogehedian). While this isn't a point in and of itself it was used even more rarely compared to other things he did, mostly militarily related, such as setting wards.<br /><br />I'd put up more evidence but my books are packed till Monday at least, maybe I'll come back and put something in when I'm done moving.<br /><br />By the way, I agree with the comment above about the Dark One being unable to revive Sammy because he can't access his soul. It just happens to be because Mashadar has it, not Mordeth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 00:48:46
subject: <b>ahh yeah</b>
body:
Hehe, what happens when I'm thinking as I post, it was Burr who mentioned the soul being in someone's possesion. I also forgot to mention that I think RJ lies like an Aes Sedai, but he came right out and said &quot;Sammael is toast&quot; I don't see any other way to read that than that he died. Someone nb me and I'll definitely come back and put up some passages refuting some stuff after Monday.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 03:32:46
subject: <b>very interesting</b>
body:
I reallllllllly like the theory, but yes, Matrimony raised a good point- if he did gain power from Sammy, how could Fain create illusions in Far Madding? The only answer would be that he, too, has a well.  However, I believe that to be highly unlikely, and therefore I dont know what to make of this. <br /><br />Really good idea though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 08:24:42
subject: <b>Sorry, but I disagree</b>
body:
What about all those Myrdraal that where consumed by Mashadar?  Did Fain recieve their power to fade into shadow?  (No he didn't)  <br />soon you'll be thinking that if Perrin or Elyas would have fallen into Mashadar then Fain would turn into a Wolfbrother.  <br />I'm sorry but I just can't understand where you get you're ideas.  Pesonally, I agree with the above posters about fain not being able to use Illusion in Far Madding (aside from him not being able to channel, ofcourse), but we all know his powers don't come from the One Power.  <br />I don't see why anyone would think his power comes from somewhere else, as there are other examples for powers that don't use the OP, such as the Horn of Valere (who made it? and how?), Ogier Treesinging, Luc/Isam and others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 14:52:56
subject: <b>You guys are missing the point</b>
body:
What the author is saying (well, what I think they are saying) is that every soul consumed by Mash. increases Fain's powers. The illusion in FM was not a result of the OP as Fain cannot channel, but rather it is a result of Fain's power growing with each new victim to Mash.<br /><br />Remember the discussion we had on the fog in CoS at the rebel encampment and whether it was Mash? Personally, I believe it was, and since it claimed so many people there Fain was juiced up to a degree we've never seen before.<br /><br />Then again, mabye it's just me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 17:55:36
subject: <b>Fain getting weaker?</b>
body:
This point was already made, but I'd like to say it again.  If Fain really is connected to SL, then, would he be getting weaker, or even be dead because the city is destroyed?  Someone a little smarter than me should think up of a theory about this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">egwene03</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 11:51:12
subject: <b>Do you REALLY want to be like Egwene? WHY???</b>
body:
lol. Anyway, the power of the dagger was around much longer than SL: that was just a place that the dagger worked it's magic to a degree never seen or remembered before. The REAL power comes from the dagger and we know this because Mordeth says that he needs the dagger (inside Fain's head) and fain goes through incredible danger to get it back. When he has it he fels &quot;Whole&quot; again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 12:14:43
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
He himself says he doesn't understand the powers he has gotten. Obviously, he wouldn't be able to channel in Far Madding. Maybe the dagger is a well. Or as GG pointed out, maybe its more of a soul related thing.<br /><br />OTOH, maybe that was an intentional clue from RJ to point out that Fain cannot channel, and his powers are from some other source.<br /><br />OR... maybe it was the true power. Men and women can't channel in FM, but I bet anyone who could use the TP could. Maybe thats another reason the Dark One wants Fain dead so bad, he, through Mordeth, has found a way to access the TP without permission.<br /><br />Or maybe not.<br /><br />Anyway, very original theory, and a job well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 04:14:22
subject: <b>The Dagger doesn't matter</b>
body:
The dagger doesn't matter, it is just a link to SL. why do you say it has been around longer than SL? Moraine said that even a stone from SL would make you evil, so Fain probably just wanted his link back.


created: 2002-08-27 16:58:46
subject: <b>Mordeth's powers</b>
body:
To me it seems something makes Mordeth more and more powerful as the series goes on - quite possibly it's the murders he commits as Fain that feeds him, or perhaps it's simply the havoc he wrecks around himself by counseling and ordering various people; after all it's all extremely similar to what ended up creating Shadar Logoth in the first place - just think of all the wretched followers under his influence.<br /><br />But I completely disagree with the theory that Padan Fain gained &quot;forsaken-like&quot; powers from Mashadar killing Sammael.  It overlooks an important point. Mordeth doesn't need the Forsaken or additional knowledge to create illusions (or as far as we know the One or True Power) - he knew how to distort reality way back in book 1.  It just seems Fain is now more able to use more of Mordeth's powers *outside* SL.  <br /><br />I don't know if I can agree with the POV (from posters on the board or from characters) that the dagger itself is irrelevant and that Mordeth only needs a link to SL to &quot;make him whole again&quot; - a pebble, anything.  If that were so, why didn't Fain picked up any object before leaving SL?<br /><br />To me what happened is that Mat wasn't supposed to escape with that Dagger.  He carried something out of Mordeth's &quot;treasure&quot;, Mordeth was to have his body.  But Mat escaped and Mordeth was able to enter Fain's body instead, perhaps because he could capture anyone after an object from his treasure was carried out of SL, or perhaps because Fain was &quot;different&quot; because of whatever Ishamael/the DO did to him.  <br /><br />In any case, the object carried out of SL was perhaps supposed to remain in the possession of the body Mordeth possessed.  It could be what links the possessed body to Mordeth's soul, a physical carrier for the SL taint, a &quot;portable SL&quot;.  It also seemed vital that Fain got his hands back on that object carried out of SL by Mat, he couldn't pick up something else for himself - it appears.<br /><br />Not that it contradicts Moiraine's opinion that everything down to peebles in SL are tainted and dangerous too, though.  But I don't think the link would have worked quite the same way with something not offered by Mordeth himself (albeit almost indirectly in Mat's case).<br /><br />If that's the case there is an unresolved issue or a plot hole as to why Fain didn't pick an object to &quot;make him whole&quot; before leaving SL.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-27 20:53:08
subject: <b>I wrote a theory a while back about Fain's dagger</b>
body:
I think you should do a search of my theories and read it.<br /><br />It is important to note that Mordeth was on the verge of killing Mat, Rand, and Perrin.  After Rand noticed he didn't have a shadow, Mordeth said something like, &quot;it is decided.&quot;<br /> <br />And then he went into attack mode, puffing himself up.<br /><br />However, Mordeth suddenly retreated, and the boys saw him simpering in the corner and then dissappearing into the cracks in the wall much like a gholam.  At this point, it is also noticed that Mat was carrying the dagger.<br /><br />Another important point is Mordeth's quote, &quot;You can take anything except....except&quot;<br /><br />I believe that with Mat's ta'veren powers, he picked the one object that Mordeth did not want him to pick up: the dagger.<br /><br />Like Dom said earlier, perhaps Moiraine was wrong.  Perhaps all of SL was tainted, but maybe it was really only the dagger that truly mattered.  perhaps the dagger is some sort of ter'angreal or something.<br /><br />One last quote of important came at the end of TEoTW.  Aginor looked at Mat (and his dagger) and said something like we followed him, &quot;An old friend, an old enemy.&quot;<br /><br />To me this suggests that perhaps Aginor had something to do with either Mordeth or the dagger.<br /><br />In WH, we saw a red herring with the gholam.  Noal Charin said he had never seen anything like it, but Mat said that he had, in Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Perhaps this is all coincidence, but if you combine Aginor's familiarity with the dagger (or the SL evil) and the similiarity between Mordeth and the gholam, a new theory arises.  Could Aginor have been the one that created Mordeth?<br /><br />I think it is possible.  After all, he was genius enough to create the gholam, and fades who are not quite in synch with reality.  <br /><br />But, back to the main point, I think that the dagger is a very important part of the story, and not just some feeble part of Shadar Logoth.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 10:20:52
subject: <b>Aginor and the Dagger</b>
body:
I remember I quite liked that theory, M_C.<br /><br />Unless Jordan made a mistake there is indeed something very strange in Aginor's words at the EotW.  As far as we know, Mordeth and SL are way after his time - he shouldn't refer to either the taint, Mordeth or the dagger as an &quot;old friend, old enemy&quot;.  At most, as he &quot;fought&quot; the Trolloc Wars as Ba'alzamon Ishamael could be in a position to make such statement, but not Aginor.  It doesn't make sense.<br /><br />So Aginor must have meant something else.  Either it had to do with the Dagger itself (thus the interesting Ter'angreal theories) or it has to do with the SL taint on the Dagger that was very familiar to Aginor for some reason - for instance because he met something quite like it in the AOL.  Or he knew how the taint infested that dagger, and how to track it.<br /><br />This, combined with the similarities with the gholam noted by Mat and the fact the gholam project was rapidly abandonned as too dangerous gives rise to theories that when it says Mordeth espoused the ways of the Shadow to fight the Shadow, it might have been a bit more literal than we thought, ie : there could be a scientific explanation behind SL and Mashadar - principles Aginor may have discovered or applied differentenly in the AOL to create his gholams and other Shadowspawn. Principles Mordeth re-applied in Aridhol to fight the Shadow, creating SL/Mashadar and getting trapped.  The stories about Mashadar arising from the evil of men, mistrust, greed etc. may then be only that, nice stories to rationalize the unexplainable - now believed to be facts by even the AS scholars of the Age. But for having read the POVs of the Forsaken we should know better than to trust everything believed to be &quot;historical truth&quot; by the AS.<br /><br />From there, anything is possible.  Mordeth could have been around since the AOL - and known of Aginor and co - perhaps kept prisoner in a stasis box by Ishy until he thought it funny to unleash it on the nations during the TW.  Or maybe Mordeth is in some sort of pre-gholam state (not yet bound into a coil/body - he could spread to a city and infect it), or the result of another similar experiment of Aginor.  <br /><br />We still don't quite know why Mordeth hated and hates the Shadow so much either.  And I think one of the books or the guide also emphasized that nobody knew where Mordreth came from when he showed up in Aridhol.<br /><br />----------------------------<br /><br />To get back to the theory, what I like a lot in it though is that Mashadar keeps or destroys the souls, so even the DO can't reach Sammael's soul (not that He would bring him back even if He could, I think.  As far as we can tell, Sammael was all but literally sentenced to death by Moridin for betrayal of the DO's explicit orders)<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-28 17:15:26
subject: <b>Just a thought.</b>
body:
I was just sitting here reading and this poped into my head. What if somehow a part, or all of Mordeth's soul is somehow in the dagger. That would explain why he wants it so bad and why it makes him &quot;whole.&quot; Also, it could be why Fain doesnt die/gets sick from having the dagger. It would also explain why he is so careful with it, and why he didnt want Matt to take it...if thats what he was refering too.<br /><br />Feel free to rip this appart.


created: 2002-08-30 15:40:51
subject: <b>Aginor and the Dagger</b>
body:
I'm just thinking here... but it seems more likely that Aginor made and used the dagger to make the Fades and Gholams.  Then somehow Mordeth got his hands on the dagger and discovered some of its uses/powers.  He used them against the shadow and transformed himself into his current fade/gholam like state as a consequence.<br /><br />This would explain why Fain has control over the Fades, I wonder if that would change if he lost the dagger?  Maybe just being joined with Mordeth is enough...  I hope Fain never finds himself a gholam, because this implies he could control them too.  If this is near the mark it also helps us understand the dark one's desire for Fain's death... would you want someone out there who can control your minions?<br /><br />Has anyone channeled at Fain since he joined with Mordeth?  Perhaps his similarities to a gholam can help him out if that happens...<br /><br />Fain is getting more interesting by the minute <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-30 16:02:11
subject: <b>In ACOS, Alviarin channeled at Fain</b>
body:
And the weaves worked on him.<br /><br />I am not sure what happened to the original Mordeth dude, probably died in WH, but Fain definitely doesn't show any of the properties of a gholam.<br /><br />It seems that there is a way of controlling a gholam that has nothing to do with the dagger.  THis was evidenced by Graendal who had a close brush with a gholam, but somehow managed to escape.  The question still remains as to if she controlled the gholam, or if she merely escaped.  <br />But Sammael clearly had a way of controlling the Ebou dar gholam.  It will quite interesting to see what way that is.  Obviously, it has nothing to do with the dagger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 00:04:22
subject: <b>sammael</b>
body:
Have you ever seen my big fat greek wedding.  You should.  In it, the greeks refer to the waspish family as &quot;toast&quot; meaning boaring and dry.  This is obviously what RJ meant by Sammael being toast, he is a boring rich person, but he is still alive. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 17:34:13
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
If Mordeth has gholam like properties, is it not possible, then, that after Mordeth was created Aginor utilized Mordeth to create the gholams?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 16:43:17
subject: <b>Re To Fain gains powers from Sammael's death</b>
body:
that can't be possible because Sammaels's powers of illusion come from saidin.  It could be that his increase in strenght comes from the fact that Mashadar consumed another soul.


created: 2003-05-13 07:39:16
subject: <b>Weaking of barriers...</b>
body:
Since the release of CoT, it seems pretty likely that the 'illusions' of the deceased Gedwyn and Torval walking up the stairs toward Rand are the same 'ghosts' that we see throughout CoT.<br /><br />I bet that Jordan included a few early examples of the clear theme he rides in CoT.  The turned (spoiled) hams in Caemlyn in WH is another example, but not one that even the clever theorists posting here would bet on at the time.


created: 2003-05-22 13:39:02
subject: <b>it is also possible</b>
body:
that Fain just always had that power, he didn't show it before. Rememeber that Mordeth is a creature of manipulation and distrust. Illusions would be right up his alley. Still not a interesting theory. The more reasomnable question here thoguh is...now Shadar Logoth's gone. What happens to Fain?


created: 2008-07-24 14:38:39
subject: <b>Fain's dagger is special</b>
body:
Notice how in TEOTW Mordeth makes a comment around &quot;Take anything you want except...[given the events in further books, the dagger, I guess]&quot;


created: 2009-06-17 19:32:31
subject: <b>fain is awsome!!!</b>
body:
I love this story line in the book.I think that it is plausable that fain gains the power of the souls that he imprisons. He is such a corruptor of souls and so evil ,how he has grown since book #1 has been engroseing .Love it ,keep it up!


created: 2002-08-25 10:08:34
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
The evidence is Vague. I would like to know more before I cast a judgement. But as it is now I say... NO<br />I think Verin only speaks of what she belives to be... not what she knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Drooling Lunatic<br />Socrates Reborn  <br />Protector of Goats<br />He who must not be named <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 11:03:42
subject: <b>ummmmm</b>
body:
Remember that in terms of Saidin, a person has to be holding it to have their strength gauged, Rand wasn't holding the power in Fal Dara.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 11:54:48
subject: <b>Well thought out and presented. But....</b>
body:
I know &quot;everything after 'but' is bs&quot; However.....<br />I'm thinking that Verin's belief of Rand's power is based on her power of observation, not innate knowledge of the amount of sadin he can hold. Throughout the series we are given much evidence that Verin is extremely observant, and even by tGH there is a good deal of evidence that Rand is hugely powerful.<br />This next is a nit pick but I think her comment on flying fish and diving birds was just that, a comment on the saying about birds and fish rather than any allusion to sadin.<br />Even though I voted &quot;no&quot; I still liked your post. It made me think.<br />NaCl(streeeech those brain cells)H2O<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 12:46:53
subject: <b>Unlikely.</b>
body:
No female channeler yet has shown any ability to see/sense Saidin and weaves of Saidin.  <br /><br />The comment about birds that dive, and fish that glide could just be Verin doing her &quot;daft, absent-minded Brown act&quot;.  <br /><br />Given that she knows Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and Lews Therin was a very strong channeler, it is reasonable for anyone to assume Rand is just as strong, without being able to sense Saidin.  <br /><br />Also, from the scene in TGH, they may have to gentle him if he is too stubborn for them to control him, and he goes out of control<br /><br />A few vague Verinisms and scenes connected mainly by possibilities do not automatically mean Verin has abnormal powers.  Most of the things she could have sensed could well have been based on simply observing him, and educated guesswork<br /> <br />As far as I recall, the only jewellery Verin is seen to wear is an broach shaped like a flower or something, and that's an angreal. <br /><br />I don't remember a the quote about damane, Burr, could someone remind me what it was<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 14:03:42
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
Verin always seems to have an ink smudge somewhere on her.  Maybe this is ter'angreal ink... j/k<br /><br />Anyway, interesting theory; all signs point to Verin being a very complicated character.


created: 2002-08-25 14:58:18
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
The best quote there is the one on how fish CAN fly, and birds CAN swim. VERY interesting. However, if that is in fact the truth, I tend to think that it is the result of having some sort of angreal. I just don't think that it is possible to have a combination-user. <br /><br />Then again, could it be possible? after all, look what the DO did with Arangar. eh. Just a thought. I'm sticking to the &quot;It's not possible&quot; line <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good thought though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 21:40:42
subject: <b>I'm not so sure</b>
body:
I agree that Verin is a very puzzling character but that doesn't mean that she has Talents that have never been introduced anywhere in the books.  I guess it is plausible that she has a ter'angreal but it would have to be very unique to tell you how strong someone is in the power even if they are not holding the power (and to judge a male's strength, they have to be actively holding as much as they possibly can).  I don't think she has any Talent that allows her to ascertain strength in Saidin, nor do I believe she has a ter'angreal that does it for her.  I think she is simply very observant and a very good actress to keep people thinking that she is dreamy and muddled.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents worth.


created: 2002-08-25 22:55:48
subject: <b>She could just be commenting on the fact that he is stubborn</b>
body:
She could be saying we have to gentle him because he won't follow our wishes. Verin is shady I'll give you that but there is nothing fishy(hehe about the scene with the fishes flying and the birds swimming. I think she may just have insight to Rand's character that other people don't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 03:40:21
subject: <b>mmmm</b>
body:
But wouldn't she have tried to warn Alanna when she realized she was bonding Rand. If she can sense his strength she would of known before Rand sheilded them that he was too strong for them.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lurker Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />mother to siamese cats Monty and Cleo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 07:22:17
subject: <b>Damna</b>
body:
when in tGH the group reached falme rand thought about using saidin to defeat the senchan but Verin commented about the damna that perhaps thay will sence it and will be puzzeled by it <br />maybe she tought that all woman can fill saidin (I think it was a slip by RJ)<br />perhaps she can fill tavern and not saidin and means his strength in that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 09:34:03
subject: <b>You Missed Some Evidence</b>
body:
Verin also senses the male half when they travel through the portal stone.  I forget the exact quote, but she said she felt a big surge in the power and tells Rand he must learn to control the power.  She would have only made this comment if she felt Rand channeling the male half.<br /><br />Secondly Verin warns Rand not to channel when he goes into Falme.  She says that it might be detected by the Seanchan damane.  Therefore she seems to indicate that some woman can sense a man channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> I love Graendal because she messes with my mind</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 10:19:57
subject: <b>Portal stone</b>
body:
&lt;quote&gt;Verin also senses the male half when they travel through the portal stone. I forget the exact quote, but she said she felt a big surge in the power and tells Rand he must learn to control the power. She would have only made this comment if she felt Rand channeling the male half.<br />&lt;/quote&gt;<br /><br />This doesn't indicate anything. The portal stone could be working in a similar way as the bowl of winds. It was channeled with saidar but it drew itself on Saidin. So both Saidin and Saidar are used when traveling by portal stones. It can substitute one of the powers, therefore usable by male channelers alone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><b> Lupo </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Fantasy-Fantast magnific <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolf at heart <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Original Finn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 10:54:51
subject: <b>eh.</b>
body:
The evidence presented for this theory is VERY circumstantial, and some of it not applicable at all.<br /><br />For instance, the bird/fish quote is evidence against your theory.  Verin stating, &quot;I have always thought that was a bad saying&quot; means that the analogy doesn't match up in her mind.  If she had not said this, and simply mentioned the fish that fly &amp; birds that swim, it would be very fishy indeed (eh, sorry).<br /><br />As for the &quot;stronger than expected&quot;, &quot;we cannot gentle him&quot;, and the eyes widening bit, I don't believe for a second that she was surprised at all, as she certainly wasn't just realizing this stuff.  That was an act put on for Siuan &amp; Moiraine's benefit - witness her similiar blonde performances throughout the series, most notably in Far Madding.<br /><br />All the other instances mentioned as being evidence for this theory (portal stone episode, cautioning the Salidar embassy, etc.) can be explained simply by the fact that Verin is intelligent &amp; observant.<br /><br />The only thing really in question here is her comment on the damane being able to sense Saidin.  But given how obsessed they are concerning marath'damane, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the Seanchan have some way of detecting a man's channeling.  Curtailing male channeling has been pretty high on every civilization's priority for the last 3 thousand years, it's not likely the Seanchan haven't figured out some way to find &amp; deal with them.<br /><br />In any case, it's fairly obvious there's more to Verin than we know of, but I don't think being able to sense saidin is it.


created: 2002-08-26 17:13:09
subject: <b>Daemione had some good comments, just wanted to add a few</b>
body:
The fish and birds comment is against your theory because she believes it is a poor analogy.  If she could sense saidin then the fact that same birds can swim and some fish fly, would make it a great analogy, because there are exceptions.<br /><br />Most likely the stronger than I expected comment has to do with willpower, he stands up to all three of them, which Verin may have been surprised over.  He even suggests that they should still him.<br /><br />As for the damane, she uses might, as well as, if care is not taken to keep the amount of Power used small.  If the damane saw lightning strike from a clear sky they would know that no woman had caused it and therefore it had to be a man.  Or Verin might have realized that the a'dam was a ter'angreal that might be able to do more than simply control women, like perhaps detect channeling, both men and women.<br /><br />As for the Salidar embassy she does finally help them plan the unfortunate encounter that leads to Rand leaving Caemlyn, if she knew how powerful he was then why did she change her mind.<br /><br />Here's proof she can't sense a man's strength, from her POV in tFoH, Lessons and Teachers, &quot;In any case, it had been a series of bad moments, from <b>discovering</b> that they could not cut him off from the True Source to the contemptuous ease with which he had shielded them, snapping their connection to <i>saidar</i> like a thread.&quot;(emphasis added)  If she only then discovered how strong he is then obviously she couldn't have sensed it in tGH, or any other time.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 18:19:16
subject: <b>ok, ok</b>
body:
I will concede this theory as a loss.  However, your enlightened responses have raised a new question in my mind.  Unless I'm gravely mistaken, no one in the &quot;known world&quot; knew about the Seanchan until they showed up in the books.  One of you stated the following...<br /><br /> &quot;But given how obsessed they are concerning marath'damane, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the Seanchan have some way of detecting a man's channeling...it's not likely the Seanchan haven't figured out some way to find &amp; deal with them&quot;<br /><br />How did Verin know anything more about the Seanchan than she heard from the rumours?  Much less something as detailed as that hypothesis


created: 2002-08-26 23:02:22
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
I dont think she can. If she could why would she mess with Rand when Alanna and her bonded him? it was her idea. And think... everyone knows that the Dragon Reborn would be powerful hes LtT reborn for crying out loud!


created: 2002-08-27 00:43:07
subject: <b>to Mahdi Raen about the Seanchan</b>
body:
She didn't know and to be honest from the evidence in tFoH, The Far Snows, they can't.  The Seanchan found Avi's gateway but likely couldn't detect Rand's channeling.  The thing is Verin said they might be able to, and quote her, &quot;Always plan for the worst, that way all your surprises will be pleasant ones.&quot;  That's all she was doing, preparing for the worst.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 07:38:25
subject: <b>Fish and birds...</b>
body:
I just submit a thought that has crossed my mind about the fish and birds thing. Does it exist a True Power for the people who fight the DO. A reunion of Saidin and Saidar which is a gift of the creator.<br />Maybe stupid, but something I never thought of before.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 11:16:59
subject: <b>Re: Burr's question about ornaments</b>
body:
I can't remember which book, but I know that at least once Verin is wearing a pin (a turtle? or maybe a flower- one or the other).  I remember wondering whether it had some kind of special purpose, just because RJ took the trouble to describe it to us. Verin just doesn't seem to be the type to care about accessories so I'm thinking the pin had some kind of One Power related use.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 13:28:53
subject: <b>The flower pin is an angreal.</b>
body:
The flower pin is an angreal.  We see her keeping it hidden in the prologue of PoD.  She uses it to help her Compel Rand's captive tower AS.  Later she wears it openly.  I don't know why she decided to risk exposing it openly.  (Maybe the WO use of jewelry is somehow rubbing off on her.)<br /><br />I do remember that she wears no other jewelry than that.  It is therefore doubtful she is using a ter'angreal.  Unless it is a special AS ring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 09:40:14
subject: <b>fish fly, birds swim</b>
body:
Maybe Verin's comment on fish flying and birds swimming meant that a woman can possibly help a man, by linking???  I don't know but that's my best guess.  When Rand had Asmodean with him Asmo wasn't able to teach to much, because he was not a good teacher.  Though he did say if they were to link with Moiraine he could do a lot better.  As for Verin's advice to Rand, not to channel at Falme.  Maybe she didn't want him to get caught, he could have been overwhelmed by the damane if they found out.  Nowhere in the series does it say that a woman can detect a man in any way, even the Forsaken say so.  Though there are the ter-angrials that can help.  But no other way, so they would have to see a bolt, a fireball, whatever, and see that it was not made from saidar to know what Rand was doing.


created: 2002-08-28 11:42:25
subject: <b>I don't know.........</b>
body:
The theories seem like they are rather vague... I have to admit that, when Verin's eyes widened at her statement, I was rather puzzled. I believe that her statement was about Rand's strength in the power, but she (and Moraine (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have a referance source with me)) were just , for lack of a better word, manhandeled by Rand with the power. Now, I don't think that it would take an Aes Sedai with a special Talent to notice that some of the most powerful women in the White Tower were being handled like kittens. <br /><br />Secondly, the comment about flying fish and diving birds could be just that Verin thought that a comment should be acurate when compairing the two sides of the Power. I doesn't necessarily have to aid to her forementioned Talent.<br /><br />I do have to agree with Burr though, it is a good idea, and I don't remember if she wears any ornaments. I don't really agree that it could be a Talent though.


created: 2002-08-28 15:56:01
subject: <b>Verin's Ornaments</b>
body:
In responce to Burr's comment:<br /><br />Verin almost never wears ornaments.  In Winter's Heart, though I'm not sure where, Cadsuane thinks that a plain brooch is the first piece of jewelry she's ever seen Verin wear.


created: 2002-08-29 00:49:23
subject: <b>Jim! I can't find that chapter in TFoH!</b>
body:
The closest I could find in my paperback was called &quot; To Teach, and to Learn&quot;. Could you tell me what number chapter it was, or perhaps if you meant a different book?<br />  As for everyone saying there is no reference to such a possibility anywhere in the books, I must strongly disagree, at least in part.  Moghedien was possibly trying to teach the girls in Salidiar how to detect a male's channeling.  Secondly, Nynaeve could sense Aginor's channeling in the third part of her testing to become Accepted.  I know this is a special case, and that Moggy may well have been lieing - it certainly seems she wasn't teaching them what she claimed to be, just a way of giving themselves headaches- but that doesn't mean it is not possible.<br />  Verin is one of those annoying characters who seems to have surprising knowledge about all sorts of things.  Who knows what she might or might not know.  But I agree with most, I doubt she can sense a man's strength, and am not convinced she can sense a man's weaves, either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 16:50:20
subject: <b>Correction to previous post</b>
body:
Lessons and Teachers is Ch 11 in LoC not tFoH.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 15:17:26
subject: <b>I find it iteresting</b>
body:
that verin is the only AS that we see that believes it possible that a female channeler can sense a male channeler, all others take it for granted that it can't happen.


created: 2002-09-02 20:31:04
subject: <b>women sensing saidin</b>
body:
I don't have the books with me right now so this is strictly out of memory... But if I remember correctly at the end of Winter's Heart one of the male forsaken notices that one of the aes sedai can sense saidin and thinks something like, they would've created a ter'angreal to see saidin... Which of course would make sense... So they could fight it better... Would it not be possible for Verin to have such a ter'angreal? They must have made more than one and we all know Verin never shows or shares everything...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 19:14:27
subject: <b>an unforgotton point of interest</b>
body:
I think what is really forgotton about Verin and her<br />knowledge of Rand is the time he transported the entire little army to falme directly from one portal stone to another.                                                         For someone to do that had to be very very powerful, clearly knowing that she could not have done it herself. Nice try, but I think Verin is <br />just Verin.


created: 2002-09-20 20:43:29
subject: <b>Don't give up that easily</b>
body:
One thing that the people who said that this has never been seen or introduced before seem to forget the old things come again and the new things happening. It could be that there were rare women with a Talent that could see Saidin, or the other way around. Remember that Foretelling seems to be coming back, sincve I can't think of hearing of anybody besides Gitara, Elaida and Nicola who have had any Foretelling since the Trolloc Wars(I'm probably wrong there). Or it could be like Min's viewings or Perrin's Wolfbrother thing. Also we must remember that there are very few men who can channel, and just as there are very few Ta'veren, there are even fewer people who can see Ta'veren than there are Ta'veren. The people who have this Talent wight just never have been exposed to men who could channel before. Then again maybe I've been smoking crack without knmowing it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 18:29:22
subject: <b>We may have to gentle him before ...</b>
body:
He goes mad, like all the other male channelers - that is what Verin was going to say.  But they can't do that, because he needs Saidin to fight the evil one.


created: 2002-12-18 06:38:19
subject: <b>Verin's Lie about Moiraine's sending uncovered.</b>
body:
She didn't lie, she twisted the truth.  We find out later from once of the Aes Sedai later when Egwene and co. are boarding vessels and inquire after Moiraine and the Amyrlin that Moiraine up and vanished then two days later Verin does too.  In fact it seems that the two may be connected considering the appearance of Verin and her inquiring after Moiraine at the Sheinaran camp.  Moiraine sent her not with words but by her actions, Moiraine's dissapearance caused Verin to hunt out Rand to provide assistance etc.


created: 2005-03-05 21:30:00
subject: <b>A lot of air</b>
body:
YOu have no real evidence. Your grasping at shadows. Verin could have just been putting up her masquerade as a typical Brown with that comment on the metaphor. And strength in spirit could be a factor in whether or not to gentle a man. Plus that whole dialogue between her and Moiraine and Siuan just reaks of Verin manipulation.


created: 2005-07-13 08:57:41
subject: <b>Nynaeve could do even more!</b>
body:
&quot;Nynaeve could sense Aginor's channeling in the third part of her testing to become Accepted&quot;<br /><br />From that passage, it seems she could do even more: she sent his weaves right back at him! So I think she can feel or 'see' the saidin weaves and somehow control them to send them back.


created: 2007-04-16 05:04:23
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
This theory is surprisingly convincing. It is small slips that give away most - such as &quot;he's stronger than I thought; maybe we should gentle him.&quot; (Or similar piece of evidence of fishiness of Taim - &quot;the so-called Aeil&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />We also know that Verin is anything but &quot;typical Brown&quot;, having figured out who the Dragon Reborn is, etc. So I don't think she would be making comments, i.e. fish fly, for no reason. What she might be saying is &quot;I can sense your strength in saidin, yet none the less I cannot teach you.&quot;


created: 2002-08-25 12:56:19
subject: <b>I thought the great Sa'angreal were never used</b>
body:
This is based on the Guide (AKA the Big White Book).  It says, basically, that the two great Sa'angreal were never used during the War of Power, and the access keys were lost.  I don't know when the Eye was cleansed, and whether they found them in time, so it is possible.  <br /><br />If they had found an access key, the Aes Sedai of the time might have tried to keep it, although not if it was broken, and much was lost in the Breaking.  <br /><br />On the other hand, it is also possible that the key was broken by accident during the Breaking, or in the 3,000 years since.  Ter'angreal are not indestructible; the doorway melted, the hedghog snapped<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 12:56:34
subject: <b>wow i'm first</b>
body:
I like the idea and i believe that it could really be that way but where did the male ter'angreal go did the surviving female aes sedai destroy it? it could also be that once the ter angreal had been used the male aes sedai went mad because of th taint and lashed out and destroyed the male ter' angereal and damage the female with the power before the female aes sedai could kill the men....


created: 2002-08-25 16:57:40
subject: <b>I always fugured saidar was used as a seive or</b>
body:
whatjamacallit paper for saidin, so that the saidin passed the a mesh or something, but the kinda thicker oily taint was caught, the pure taint coulda killed i spose, both for the female aes sedai holdin it, and if it bounced back to the men holdin it.<br /><br />Just an idea<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font color="silver">Your favourite place is you and me.</font></i><br /><br /><i><font color="white">Eat dirt, fascist herbivores!</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 01:20:51
subject: <b>I always assumed...</b>
body:
It just got broken in a normal fashion during the Breaking. You know, someone knocked it off the table or something. Well maybe not quite that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />, but despite that fect that <i>&lt;ter'angreal</i> are hard to break they are not indestructible. <br />Besides, we saw the people who planned to create the Eye of the World in TSR, with <i>Callandor</i> and the Green man and the Dragon Banner.  The Aes Sedai - three of them - were talking abpout the men they were going to work with, saying they were inexperienced but not yet touched by the Taint. There was no sign of the Choedan Kal, nor did they mention it in their conversation.  I think they didn't know where it was - they would have hidden it for safekeeping otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 09:05:16
subject: <b>Excellent Thoeory!</b>
body:
As I was reading this theory Ruriha, I was thinking about the exact same events you were. But, I want to add a little of my own. I think that the Aes Sedai knew where the Chodan Kal were, at least one pair of them anyway, and they hid them with the most unlikely people; their dedicated Aiel. If you go back to Rand's viewing of &quot;The Road to the Spear&quot; in tSR. It is in the Hall of Servants that the female Aes Sedai are talking about the foretelling of Callandor. The Green Man is also there, and so is the Dragon Banner. Also, in this scene, they are sending the Aiel away and they tell them to keep moving until they found safety. Which they eventually did, in the Three Fold Land. This is where they built the city of Rhuidean, and made a great plaza to hide the Chodan Kal amongst many other figures and statues. Decoys if you will <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Chodan Kal were the Aeil's charge, even if they did not know it. Their protection of them is what turned some of them from the Way of the Leaf, to one of the greatest warriors in the world, and the ones that remained true, The Jenn, built an entire city to hide them amongst the other decoys. Witch the Aiel of today have been guarding for ages.<br /><br />So, if this theory is true, that takes care of the two pair of access keys. One set went with the Aeil, to be used at a later date, and to keep them out of the hands of the Forsaken. The other went with the Aes Sedai to make the Eye. The unknown then, is what happened to the other male access key, and does it even matter? <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 12:05:55
subject: <b>RE: Ter'angreal are hard to break</b>
body:
When Egwene picks up the broken Women Figurene (the Chodan Kal), it gives her quite a bit of pain, she then drops it and it shatters. <br /><br /><br />tSR - Chapter 11 - What Lies Hidden:<br />&lt;The crystal sphere flickered in fitful, lurid flashes, and<br />needles stabbed her brain with each flash. With a sob of agony, she loosed her hold and clasped<br />both hands to her head.<br />The crystal sphere shattered as the figure hit the floor and broke into pieces, and the needles<br />vanished, leaving only dull memories of the pain and a queasiness that wobbled her knees.&gt;<br /><br /><br />Who knows if it shattereed so easy was becuase of Tel'aran'rhiod, that it was already broken, or what though. <br /><br />Also of note, when she looks at it again later, it is two peices again and laying in the display case where she first found it. (because things that happen in Tel'aran'rhiod don't happen in RL)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 12:19:20
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
You guys REALLY haven't puzzled out what happened to the other male access key? lol. I caught it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*High fives Columbo*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 14:26:07
subject: <b>I kindof like this idea, but burr has a great reply too.</b>
body:
I definately think that there were only 72 linked during the cleansing of the eye. The other's could've been there to protect them...or could we assume that the number 100 was just exageration due to legend? Armies get bigger and bigger in memory as time passes. Plus...would they need an extra 28 Aes Sedai to protect them? Wouldn't they have warders?<br /><br />Great theory overall though...makes one think. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pi<font color="red">b</font>are<br />Crazy Like a Fox? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 16:52:02
subject: <b>I think this may be a RAFO</b>
body:
By the way, there were three pairs of access ter'angreal.  To pibare, there were no warders in the AoL.  The reason we need to RAFO is that Rand's clensing may have broken the female Choedan Kal itself as well as the access key, and if that's the case it's unlikely that this theory would hold.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 17:56:10
subject: <b>Jim, how do you know there were three pair?</b>
body:
I think I will read some of the guide tonight to see what it says about all this stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 02:02:53
subject: <b>Enjoyable theory. But what's up with the Eye of the World?</b>
body:
It's a very plausible theory.  The only real argument against it that I can see is that everyone says the Choedan Kal were never used during the War of Power--and as for that, perhaps they only meant that they were never used in the actual war, not that they weren't used at all for something else, like making a nice little pool of pure saidin.  <br /><br />Incidentally, did anyone else think that perhaps the Eye of the World didn't turn out to be as important as it was built up to be?  Wasn't it &quot;created to guard the world&quot; or something to that effect?  And why was Ishamael so desperately trying to keep Rand from reaching it, when it was just some saidin lying around?  To keep Rand from learning he could channel?  It would've been far more effective to just not mention the Eye in the first place, if that were his goal.  No one would've known he was supposed to go use it, then.  Oh well. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 04:15:47
subject: <b>It wasn't the Eye as much as what it guarded.</b>
body:
The Eye was created to guard a Seal, the Horn, and the Dragon Banner. These had to be kept from the Shadow. The Eye was made of <i>saidin</i> for one purpose; only the Dragon Reborn could use it, because he would have to be a very strong channeler. Him, or a Forsaken. That meant no casual passer-by could find the items, only he could drain the pool and find them. I guess they didn't contemplate false Dragons (and in any case the Pattern stopped them.) Of course, a Forsaken could do the same, but if one did everything would be toast anyway so it didn't matter. <br />To sum up, the Eye was to guard the items within and make sure only the DR could get them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 07:27:34
subject: <b>Finding the access keys...</b>
body:
<br />Well, I totally agree that the aiel were made to guard the ter'angreals.<br />They had 2 of the access keys. So now, as we know that aiel are connected to <br />Shara and the Atha'an Miere, my guess is that we will find the keys not far from these countries.<br /><br />Another point is that why the Choedan Kal were placed so far apart. One in Cairhien (who had relations with the aiel...) and one on the Island of the Atha'an Miere.<br /><br />I think there are too many connections to make it coincidences.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 12:27:58
subject: <b>As far as their 'placement' goes...</b>
body:
I doubt that the Choedan Kal were deliberately placed where they currently are; rather, I think it more likely they ended up there as a result of the Breaking, what with all of the lands being swallowed up by waters, mountains rising up from flatlands, &amp; all that other fun stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 14:29:30
subject: <b>So Olu</b>
body:
Your idea is that the Chodan Kal floated, or maybe bounced along the ground via earth quakes to Rhuidean during the breaking instead of being carried there by the Aeil along with all the other Angreal, Ter'angreal and figurines? I suppose it is possible.<br /><br /><br />tSR - Chapter 26 - The Dedicated<br /><i>Adan studied the stone doorframe, tumbled piles of stone figurines, odd shapes in crystal standing among the potted chora cuttings Sulwin&#8217;s folk had no use for. Was there a use for any of it? Was this what they were being faithful for? If it was, then so be it. Some could be saved. There was no way to tell what Aes Sedai might consider most important, but some could be saved.</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 14:37:02
subject: <b>And here is the plaza in Rhuidean</b>
body:
This is why I suggested that they had many decoys as well as the actual Chodan Kal Figurines:<br /><br />tSR - Chapter 24 - Rhuidean:<br /><i>A clear lane led from each street Mat could see, straight to the columned rings, but in the spaces between, statues stood haphazardly, life-sized down to half that, in stone or crystal or metal, set right down on the pavement. All among them were . . . . He did not know what to call them, at first. A flat silvery ring, ten feet across and thin as a blade. A tapering crystal plinth a pace tall that might have held one of the smaller statues. A shiny black metal spire, narrow as a spear and no longer, yet standing on end as if rooted. Hundreds of things, maybe thousands, in every shape imaginable, every material imaginable, sotting the huge plaza with no more than a dozen feet between any two.</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 14:45:19
subject:
<b>Ok, last big quote on this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Here is a paragraph that comes right after the one I posted above:<br /><br /><i>He was ready to rum around and go back right then, but Rand continued on, barely looking at what lined his way. Once Rand paused, staring down at two figurines that hardly seemed to deserve a place with the other things. Two statuettes maybe a foot tall, a man and a woman, each holding a crystal sphere aloft in one hand. He half-bent as if to touch them, but straightened so quickly it could almost have been Mat&#8217;s imagination.</i><br /><br />Now we have the Aeil carrying all these things in their wagons during the breaking, running for safety with these things, various Angreal, Ter'angreal and figurines. How did the Chodan Kal get to this plaza if not brought there by the Aeil? If not, whoever did bring them must have found all the other statues there very convenient to hide they keys with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 15:40:16
subject: <b>***sigh***</b>
body:
You guys need to read eachothers responses more carefully.  One of you is talking about the Choedan Kal access keys (the ter'angreal), and the other is talking about the Choedan Kal themselves (the sa'angreal).<br /><br />To hopefully sum up a few things . . . .<br /><br />1.  There are 4 access keys (although Jim seems to think otherwise - we don't know why), but only 2 Choedan Kal.<br />2.  Two access keys (male &amp; female) were taken by the Aiel to Rhuidean - these are the ones in possession by Rand.  The female one melted down during the cleansing of Saidin.<br />3.  The second female key is also frigged up, and on display in Tanchico.  This theory suggests it was used to create the Eye of the World.<br />4.  The final male key is MIA - maybe.  (Apparently Green Gaidin &amp; Columbo have figured it out).<br />5.  The male Choedan Kal itself is half buried outside Cairhien.<br />6.  The female Choeden Kal itself is half buried on Tremalking (I think).<br /><br />Jim, where do find evidence for 3 sets of access keys?<br /><br />Green Gaidin, would you mind sharing your thoughts regarding the 2nd male access key?  Or at least pointing us in the right direction?  There's currently nothing in the theory database or FAQ regarding this.  Without knowing anything more, it could be anywhere from in the White Tower vaults to some farmer's mantlepiece.<br /><br />Regarding the extra 28 Aes Sedai, I don't think it means all that much.  After all, Lews Therin's 100 companions actually numbered a good bit more than that.  And for all we know, they made 2 circles of 50 and used a technique completely different than that of Rand &amp; Nynaeve's (since they obviously had a lot less success).<br /><br />As far as this theory goes, I don't buy it.  If the group creating the Eye were using the Choedan Kal, it's not likely they'd need a crapload of Aes Sedai to increase the amount of One Power they could use.  After all, using the Choedan Kal, Rand &amp; Nynaeve were able to process ALL of the taint in just a few hours - not just the small pool of it that the AOL Aes Sedai dealt with.  I think it unlikely they they brought along another 98 Aes Sedai just to dump the taint into.  Why not just pour it into some nearby squirrels or something?  No, I'm of the opinion that the Choedan Kal were not used for this endeavor.<br /><br />I think a good size circle was created to do the actual deed, and the remainder of the Aes Sedai had the task of protecting those working (after all, they were in the middle of the Blight, and by channeling that much they were lighting one big ass signal flare for all it's shadowspawn denizen's).  None of them made it out alive, probably just overwhelmed by the Blight.


created: 2002-08-27 18:05:12
subject: <b>Clear and Present Danger....</b>
body:
1.  It is assumed that there is only one set of access keys.  GG and I know that infact there is two sets.<br />2.  The Choden Kael have NEVER! been used.<br />3.  The original set was lost in the War of Power.  Sammuel conquered land in which the keys where kept.  Sammuel was unaware of what was under his nose at the time and the good guys didn't want to risk going in to get the keys out.  Result was a second set of keys made.<br />4. As others have pointed out Egwene stumbled on to one of the two female keys that exist.<br /><br />As to where the second male key is??????  I can tell you only that GG and I stumbled on it accidentily and are now putting something together.  In our search for Demandred and focusing on Taim ( who originally was Demandred but RJ changed his mind????),  and with what we new of the access keys we were led to the whereabouts of the second male key.<br /><br />Stay tuned! and everything will be revealed.<br /><br />Columbo and GG are on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 18:27:01
subject: <b>yes I see your point Daemione</b>
body:
I was misinterpreting Olu. Olu was talking about the Chodan Kal themselves, I was talking about the access keys.<br /><br />My apoligies to Olu for being so sarcastic in my reply <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 21:38:12
subject: <b>Other male key</b>
body:
Hmm.  Can't wait to hear more from Columbo and Green Gaidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 00:00:19
subject: <b>A few points</b>
body:
1. The Choedan Kal ARE the ACCESS KEYS, the sa'angreal statues were never named. (well, not to us anyway)<br /><br />2. They were never used before the cleansing of the taint. (except rand + asmo's fight)<br /><br />3. i didn't see anything about 2 sets of access keys, if elayne can duplicate ter'angreal, why couldn't someone else? maybe a dodgy copy that broke when used?<br /><br />4. the eye of the world was hiding with the green man, whose little hidey hole MOVED. it was never in the same place twice, and could only be found by people with need.<br /><br />Maybe all those aes sedai were needed to merge the RW and T'A'R together to do THAT, rather than cleansing the liquid saidin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 09:03:17
subject: <b>Regarding the two female access keys</b>
body:
Somewhere, I'm not sure where.  Lanfear says she 'snared' the second female choedan kal with traps.  So it might be in working condition, or it might still be broken along with the traps.  That should explain why Egwene feels all that pain when she grabbed it.  How does everyone know there were only two male and female access keys?  Doesn't it say there were several made, I don't remember reading a specific number.


created: 2002-08-28 11:16:45
subject: <b>Is there another male key?</b>
body:
Thinking about it more, I guess it depends on when the second key(s) were made.  If, like you're suggesting Colombo, the second set was created while the War of Power was going on, there's most likely a second male one floating around.<br /><br />But if I recall correctly, after the 1st set of keys were lost, Lews Therin didn't waste any time in implementing his plan &amp; sealing up the bore (like, the next day, I think).  I'm not sure there would have been time for the Aes Sedai to create another set of keys.<br /><br />If this is the case, it's more likely that there is no 2nd male key.  After all, with all the male Aes Sedai going insane, the last thing they'd want to do is create another access key to the male Choedan Kal.<br /><br />Anyway, I guess all this would probably be better suited for blackboard conversation when your theory emerges.<br /><br />Aldo, Lanfear didn't set any traps on the broken access key in Tanchico - it's a trap just by being broken, as evidenced by Egwene's experience with it.  Although, I suppose it's possible that Moghedien laid a snare on it, as she had gotten to it before Egwene.  But I don't think that's likely.<br /><br />Mussels, that's a good idea regarding the whole mercurial aspect to the Eye - but I'm pretty sure the sa'angreal themselves are the Choedan Kal, and the access keys are just ter'angreal.


created: 2002-08-28 11:34:06
subject: <b>There's no 'mabye' about it</b>
body:
There was a second set made after the first fell with a territory to Sammael. The AS could not risk going in after them; if even one of them was caught and sent to Semirhage the secret would be out and the war could not be won against the power of the CK. Therefore they left the keys where they were and constructed a second set.<br /><br />Ooo. I'm getting all goosepimply hoping that the TP admins will actually POST this as a theory. NEVER FEAR! We are working on something, and not just a theory. One idea is a new idea for this board, which we have to talk about with our fearless leader: Mike.<br /><br />SOON!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 16:41:01
subject: <b>a rundown</b>
body:
Who got the idea that there are 3 sets of CK?<br /><br />I have never seen anything like that before.<br /><br />I think the guide says that the CK have never been used before Rand, but who knows if that is true or not.  Much of the theme of WoT is that information gets lost and distorted as it passes through time.  <br /><br />Perhaps no official record of the CK being used was ever made, because the AS wanted the shadow to know as little as possible about the use of the CK. (of course, if the CK were used, the shadow would have known anyway, just like they found out in WH).<br /><br />This theory is plausible, but there is no evidence to substantiate it, just speculation.  All in all, however, it is a creative and interesting theory.  <br /><br />This is however, the best theory yet, that explains why the CK is broken.  Surely, there is an interesting story that explains why the female key was broken, other than by accident.  <br />


created: 2002-08-28 17:39:37
subject: <b>Daemione....</b>
body:
You are correct. Lews Therin would not risk an attempt to retrieve the access keys ( 1st set ).  As GG mentioned if the attempt failed it might lead to the keys falling into the wrong hands.  A second set was created but never used ( sent with Aeil to Rhudien ).  As it has been pointed out, there is evidense of Egwene stumbling on a second ( original ) female key.  GG and I accindently stumbled on the whereabouts of the second Male key ( original ).<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 00:29:20
subject: <b>How many keys? And just how hard are they anyway??</b>
body:
Do we really know for sure that there are only 2 sets of access keys? (AK's)  Or is this just supposition?<br /> Personally, after what Osan'gar said regarding how difficult they would be to destroy ( WH Ch? &quot;Wonderful News&quot;-I think, don't have the book handy), the fact the female AK broke in cleansing <i>saidin</i> suggests to me, quite strongly, that the other AK also broke after/during use.  Certainly it didn't break by being bumped off a table!<br />  In fact, putting that together with Osan'gar's thoughts regarding his intentions of killing Rand with Balefire at the end of WH, it seems likely to me that perhaps the only way of destroying the AK's may well have been balefire.  This may not be the case once they are broken, as are both the female ones we know of, but I would argue RJ may well have hinted that it is the case in the normal run of things.<br /> The way all those AoL people freak out about them 'never being tested' suggests that they may well have been flawed in some way (obviously!).  So therefore, it may well be that the female of the two is flawed in a minor way, which leads to the access keys being broken after use.<br /> After all, if either of the two channelled a greater amount of the power in the end of WH, it must have been the male one, as <font size="-1"><b>ALL</b></font> of <i>saidin</i> passed through it.  I still don't understand, myself, why a constant flow of <i>saidar</i> was needed once the 'conduit' connecting <i>saidin</i> to SL was woven.  Why could it not then have simply been tied off?<br /> If it does turn out that the female CK, or it's access keys were flawed and yet nearly indestructible, as Osan'gar believed, then this provides a strong argument that the female of the two, at least, was used sometime during the breaking, and indeed, may well have been used to cleanse the saidin in TEOTW.  Good theory!<br /> As for the AK's being lost in territories captured by Sammael, if they were so important that their falling into enemy hands would have meant losing the war (which it seems it would) then wouldn't the AS responsible for making them have destroyed them themselves, as the only sure way of preventing them falling into the hands of the Shadow??<br /> Finally, if you guys think you know where the other male AK might be, then please don't keep us in suspense-let us know!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 01:25:40
subject: <b>Unbroken...</b>
body:
<br />we all assume the Tanchico access key is broken because of what Egwene saw, but couldn't it have been an illusion to protect and hide the key.<br />It can very well be explained if a male channeler did that, the sensation of Egwene being caused by the taint of the illusion weaves, and any male channeler (including Forsaken) would try to keep that from any female channeler.<br /><br />Just another idea.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 03:52:37
subject: <b>That missing Access Key...</b>
body:
...maybe I'm missing the obvious problem with this thought, or maybe GG and Columbo have actually stumbled across some obscure hint embedded within the books somewhere which would tell us where the AK is, but....<br />....it occurred to me the answer may well be obvious.  Very obvious.  If both the AK's were in territory overrun by Sammy, then maybe both of them wound up in Tanchico.  Or somewhere around there, anyway.  I keep going back over those posts, hoping for a clue, but if it's there, I can't work it out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 11:30:28
subject: <b>Lanfear's trap</b>
body:
If we are correct in saying that lanfear layed traps on the second access key, then isn't it plausible that somehow the traps are related to the key being broken?  I mean lanfear could have used inverted weaves and distorted the figurine so that it appeared to be broken so people would think twice about even picking it up. Just a thought!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 01:30:00
subject: <b>Lanfear ?</b>
body:
I think Lanfear would have used it. She is said to be maybe the strongest of the Forsaken, with the CK she would have nobody to match her.<br />My guess is more like a male hided it with Saidin so no woman can find it.<br />Two of the keys were in Rhuidean, so maybe both the others are in Tanchico seems just too easy (but that is only my opinion...).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 23:08:36
subject: <b>One thing</b>
body:
One of the Forsaken says this somewhere (I'm thinking 4-6th book but I don't know), the maximum number of females in a circle is 66, the maximum of males is one less that the females, except in 1 male to 1 female, 2 males to 1 female, 2 males (connected by a female), and 2 males to 2 females. So the max in a circle is 66 female and 65 males, for a total of 131 (strange that 13 is the maximum all female circle though).  Anywho, clarification, there is no need for this theory 100 Aes Sedai can link up just fine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-09 10:38:57
subject: <b>Only 2 Sets?</b>
body:
So we're all okay with the assumption that the Aes Sedai, during the early days of the Breaking, went into the Shadow-controlled territory, which probably still had a bunch of Shadowspawn, Dreadlords, and whole armies of Darkfriends, and found the access keys they had lost?<br /><br />And we're not agreeing with an assumption that the Aes Sedai realized their folly in only having one way to use their greatest weapons and thus made at least 2 more sets of access keys (a total of 3+ in existence)--all in reserve of the other, so they always had one if necessary?<br /><br />Just checking.<br /><br />Elder Haman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Still looking for Loial <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-11 19:54:20
subject: <b>A couple problems</b>
body:
It doesn't say anywhere how many access keys were made for the Choeden Kal.<br /><br />Lanfear didn't set any traps on the other key. The broken key itself is the hazard. <br /><br />The Aiel's sacred mission was just to survive to produce the Dragon Reborn. The OP objects just gave them something real to do to stay together. The AOL AS who give them the job basically says, &quot;umm, oh yeah... that stuff... take care of that stuff for us. Yeah, that's the ticket!&quot; <br />(They were cussing out the AOL AS who had foretold the Dragon's rebirth among the Aiel for not being specific enough when Rands ancestor walked in).<br /><br />I think that's everything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 10:19:22
subject: <b>no name</b>
body:
There are 4 access keys?  Were is the other male key?  I guess i should re-read the series.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-05-21 09:23:28
subject: <b>Misinformation</b>
body:
There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about various aspects mentioned in these posts.  I could sit here correcting everyone for hours but I wont.  What I will mention however is an explanation of the breaking of the Access Key which Nynaeve uses during the cleansing.  <br />Rand is generally accepted to be as strong in the power as a man can be but Nynaeve, while as strong as Moghedien, is clearly not as strong as a woman can be.  We know this from power comparisons involving Lanfear and Alivia for example.  During the cleansing, Saidin and Saidar were used equally.  If they had not been, the conduit would have failed for one reason or another.  Since the Choedan Kal have equal strength and the Access Keys have equal strength, the difference boils down to Nynaeve.  We know she is weaker than Rand in the power and indeed she reaches her point of exhaustion sooner.  Since Rand was still pulling a full measure of Saidar wether Nynaeve could handle it or not, the strain fell on the weakest link in the chain - the Female Access Key.  It was this overtaxing which caused it to break.  I suppose from this we can reason how much magnitude of power it would take to have broken the other Female Access Key but I'll leave that for someone else to do.  Hope this clears it up for a few people. <br />


created: 2004-05-22 22:09:54
subject: <b>Misinformation</b>
body:
**During the cleansing, Saidin and Saidar were used equally. If they had not been, the conduit would have failed for one reason or another.*<br /><br />Dovien, i know you think you know what you are saying, but you dont. If you would re-read CoT, you would remember that the comparison of the amount of Saidar used, and the amount of Saidin used was &quot;Dragonmount beside a foothill&quot; Saidin being Dragonmount. Don't get all condesending when you do not have your facts straight


created: 2005-01-03 15:43:44
subject: <b>Um...sorry.</b>
body:
No way did this happen. It has been said time and time again that the Choedan kal were never tested. LTT goes crazy(even more than usual) when Rand says he's gonna use them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rest in Peace, RJ</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 20:16:26
subject: <b>i dont buy the dna bit.</b>
body:
good theory but the whole dna thing isn't really supported by any evidence. you might be right but. jordan does like to have a scientific slant to the mystical.<br /><br />i definately think there is something more to the whole cat and dog thing. <br /><br />does this mean that a channeling couple need to keep birds or fish for pets.


created: 2002-08-28 23:40:49
subject: <b>nicely written</b>
body:
Very nicely put together theory, it is the ones like this that I rather enjoy reading. Despite the lack of evidence you put forth some interesting hypotheses, and I agree with you on some points but overall dislike the conclusions. There isn't enough evidence one way or another but certain things just don't appeal to me. I look forward to more ideas from you, once again very nicely done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 00:50:18
subject: <b>Maybe the other way around?</b>
body:
With all the balance in the WOT, we now need Tiger-Sisters or something to balance the Wolf-Brothers. But Cats and Dogs are definately Saidar and Saidin. I don't like the bit about genetic engineering the Dog/Cat DNA into the genome, otherwise a family that gives lots of female channelers will be much less likely to give male channelers (Cat DNA) and vice versa. In fact, when Aes Sedi talk about the 'genetics' of channeling, they assume it is the same cause in males and females, thus culling males reduces the number of channeling females. If males had dog DNA and females had cat DNA then culling males would reduce the amount of dog DNA but would not touch the amount of cat DNA, leading to no change in the number of female channelers. Also, what happens when a male inherits the Cat DNA or a female inherits the Dog DNA? This just doesn't work. Perhaps the other way though? If they genetically engineered dogs and cats so they can sense saidin and saidar, this would make sense. Maybe the strange six fingered cats in the two rivers are the original cats, and the five finger variety are the new cats that can sense saidar? After all, with all the channelers (especially female potential ones) in the Two Rivers, every household would have tonnes of cats (which we didn't hear about), and Rand never mentioned anything odd about the cats of the Two Rivers except that they have six fingers. Surely he would have mentioned that cats hated him?


created: 2002-08-29 05:08:42
subject: <b>i think...</b>
body:
I think you need to be in a hospital whit mattress on the walls. And if that dosen't work a bullet in the neck. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 06:54:41
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I have to admit, though there isn't much to go on, there is a strange ring of truth. The Wolf-sister argument and the as well as the genetic culling argument are hard to defend. Perhaps the people were given a chromosome with both cat and dog DNA. However, time being circular, I don't see how Rand is going to set up the world to return to the First Age unless he a) kills off every channeler or b) genetically removes that chromosome...<br /><br />Also, Elyas&#8211; in talking about wolfbrothers, implied that the connection was MUCH older than channeling, so the timing is way off.<br /><br />Either way, it was a really interesting angle and a well thought (and very believable) out theory, so I still vote yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 08:56:38
subject: <b>gabbekj!</b>
body:
I don't agree with the theory either but there are better ways of putting it. Don't you have anything constructive to say? I think agressive people belong in that room, not people who actually have ideas! You could do with some chora trees by your computer.<br /><br />OK. About the theory. Maybe there's more to the cats and dogs then meets the eye. What did you find in Egyptian mythology about it, besides the fact that they respected them? I doubt it was that they were subjected to genetic manipulation. And about the Tube of Power... it all seems a little far-flung to me, you don't give much evidence. I think there are sniffers and Ogier and Wolfbrothers because it is a colorful world, full of strange and interesting creatures. <br /><br />I've got a few questions. How come there are male Ogier? What is your conduit made of? How come male channelers can't sniff or talk to the wolves if they were the final stage of the experiment? And there are other Talents, too, like Min's, or Dreamwalkers that can't channel and haven't got anything to do with the wolves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 09:37:55
subject: <b>about time being circular</b>
body:
I don't think that anybody will be around when it resets. You won&#8217;t have to cull out the channelers because everybody will be gone. I always assumed that someday the sun would give out, the universe contracts, big bang, and then we go all over again... This could hold with some RL theories as well. Think, all ages == billions and billions and billions of years. Basically a full circle of the wheel is like a cosmic cycle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 10:36:56
subject: <b>More of a hypotheses than a theory . . .</b>
body:
I don&#8217;t want to be harsh, but I really do believe that &#8220;this is some random part of the story that he has simply flung into the plot.&#8221; <br /><br />Actually I take it back, the dog and cat thing has never been tied in anyway to the plot.  It&#8217;s a bit of color that RJ has put into the background to add depth to the world he has created.  He&#8217;s taken the old clich&#233; that woman are &#8220;cat people&#8221; and men are &#8220;dog people&#8221; and made it manifest among chandlers.  He&#8217;s taken lots of clich&#233;s about men and women and made them manifest in WOT. I really don&#8217;t see anything more to it than that. <br /><br />RJ&#8217;s best strength as a writer &#8211; by far &#8211; is the depth and complexity of his world building.  One of the ways he&#8217;s done that is by adding colorful little details throughout the series and then reincorporating them to strengthen the plausibility of the world he&#8217;s building.   To do that he has to use details that have no importance beyond themselves. <br /><br />Also, one of the reasons his mysteries and riddles are so interesting and debatable is that the relevant clues don&#8217;t jump out and grab you because they are included among so many details.  The ageless faces weren&#8217;t a dead giveaway about the binder rods because that detail about AS was one of so many about them, including their affinity to cats.<br /><br />Finally, for a theory that proposes to account for all &#8220;mystical&#8221; powers from the One Power to Sniffing, you have left out Min&#8217;s visions and Dreamwalking.  I don&#8217;s see how either fits neatly into your theory of gene splicing being the origin of all metahumans in the 3rd age.<br /><br />Having said all that, I go back to my headline.  What you have here is not so much a theory as a hypothesis.  Except for the sketchy genetics, there&#8217;s nothing here that is flat out wrong.  You&#8217;ve taken a few good observations, strung them together with a lot of intelligent guesses to produce an idea of how things might have been.  They might have been just that way.<br /><br />I doubt we&#8217;ll even know because I doubt that RJ is going to dedicate any of his dwindling number of remaining pages to either AOL and earlier metaphysics, nor to an explanation of the behavior of dogs and cats.  I really think it&#8217;s just one of those little things that make WOT the rich world it is.


created: 2002-08-29 10:55:27
subject: <b>Ogier</b>
body:
It says in the Big White Book that the Ogier are natural and not genetic creations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 13:53:51
subject: <b>nice thought</b>
body:
I like the connections you made between channeling and cats and thief cathcers and dogs and so on, but the DNA thing just took it too far.  That and the Wheel ain't set in Earth, period.  I'm not sure how many times Jordan can say that (not that I blame you for thinking that, it is an enticing thought).  Those connections may pan out into some plot element, but I have to believe that it's just another interesting connection.  There are a few of those that aren't plot points, if I remember correctly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The joke is we all have the same punchline</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 14:41:18
subject: <b>I agree with Justa Boy</b>
body:
However, this is really well thought out. One thing that could be included as support, is that we KNOW Aginor was doing genetic experiments (can you say Trolloc? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)  If he was doing these types of experiments, wouldn't it be possible that someone else was doing/had done others? Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Throughout history, when people get wood, I want them to think of Trojans&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Ned Flanders, aka The King Troy<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> &quot;That's no Moon...&quot; &quot;Here, let me hike those up for ya&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 23:58:57
subject: <b>OK, AshaKahn</b>
body:
Tell us where RJ says WOT doesn't take place on earth.<br /><br />That is your mission.<br /><br />I have searched the web high and low looking for this in an interview where something like this is said, and haven't seen it.<br /><br />I know full well this is a work of fiction, but at the same time, RJ kinda takes care of the <i>rational theory of disbelief</i>. He has hinted that the story takes place in our future:<br /><br />&quot;Tell us about Lenn,&quot; Egwene called. &quot;How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars.&quot;  (John Glenn, the Eagle has landed)<br /><br />Stylized Three-Pointed Triangle reeking of greed and pride (Mercedes Benz emblem that Egwene found in Tanchico)<br /><br />Mosk and Merk who fought with lances of fire in the sky??? (Moscow and America, ala The Cold War (thought it never happened, legend becomes myth remember))<br /><br /><br />and as I said before, I look at a turning of the wheel, for the sake of the story mind, as a complete cosmic cycle, ergo, big bang, we all live out our lives and stuff, then, eventually all matter goes back into one big ol&#8217; mass of stuff, big bang again. Wash Rinse Repeat.<br /><br />If you think about it, you can see how a man of science would be so careful with this stuff, it matters to him. He doesn't like to watch a movie or see a story and go &quot;nope, that could never happen&quot;. He puts his story in the future, and in such a way that we really can't say, &quot;nope, that will never happen.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 00:29:30
subject: <b>Reply to question</b>
body:
This is for the person who asked where male Ogier came from and where Dreamwalkers came from if my theory is correct. Now, I don't know if any of you are biologists but in human beings two X chromosomes make a person female and an X and Y chromosome makes them male. Most people think that male traits are carried on the Y but that just isn't so. The Y chromosome is a pitiful little shrivelled thing and has about a fifth of the base pairs of the X. But that really isn't important, because the power probably isn't sex linked, meaning that's it's not carried on either the X or the Y. But rather it's sex linked meaning it's the hormones that cause distinction in the power, but I think that if this was absolutely true we can expect the male forsaken in teh female body to be growing hair on his/her face soon. But anyway sex influenced doesn't mean that a man couldn't carry the same trait as a woman... I'm sorry but I can't go much further without getting too technical for most people to follow. But as for Dreamwalkers... it seems to me that Dreamwalkers ability to walk in Tel'aran'rhiod could have been taken from Wolfbrothers and given to other human beings. As for where Min came from... who knows maybe it's just the pattern trying to nudge things in the necessary direction. And the reason Dogs go crazy on the Aes Sedai is because they smell Cat hormones on them, I thought that was obvious from my theory but I guess I didn't clarify well enough.


created: 2002-08-30 06:29:15
subject: <b>We're currently in the Seventh Age</b>
body:
What a well thought-out theory! Not that I buy it, but it was very interesting to read.<br /><br />The topic that interests me here is whether Earth is part of the WoT. RJ has in fact said that the world of the Wheel IS our world. Check the FAQ sections that list things he's said. One of them went like this: when asked if the books were set in our past or our future, he replied something like &quot;time is a wheel, you can look back and see the past, and you can look ahead and see the future; the books are set in our past and our future, depending on which way you look.&quot;  This basically is a roundabout way of saying that our world is one of the seven Ages.<br /><br />Myself, I believe that we are about a half turn away from the Third Age - the Cats &amp; Dogs theory places us at the First Age, but I think the Sixth or Seventh is more likely. This does not impact the theory - I just think it would take more than one Age to get from our world to the AoL. The AoL was described as an idyllic, uber-peaceful society.  To change from our unquiet, non-channeling world into the AoL in one Age is too much change too quickly for the resulting society to actually be so peaceful! If that makes any sense.<br /><br />Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your theories! I like the ones that have a scientific basis. I get sick of reading the Asmodean and Taimandred debates that just go on and on ad nauseum.<br /><br />-Toivo


created: 2002-08-30 08:32:05
subject: <b>kinda odd Toivo</b>
body:
that every book starts off saying it's &quot;called the <b>third</b> age to some, an age long past, an age yet to come&quot; if it's the seventh age.<br /><br />I don't know if RJ would totally pull the wool over our eyes like that, not on that scale, I mean, it's the omnipresent narrator that says it's the third age, it's not like some char in the book thinks it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 09:54:58
subject: <b>Windsor, you might read a little more carefully . . .</b>
body:
As it says at the beginning of each book, the story of Rand et all takes place in the Third Age.  Toivo was making the case that you, s/he and I &#8211; everyone reading the books &#8211; are living in the Sixth or Seventh age.<br />


created: 2002-08-30 20:43:25
subject: <b>Windosr</b>
body:
I took Toivo's comment to mean that he thinks that we ('we' = you and me and everyone else) are currenly in the 7th Age.<br /><br />At least, I hope this is what he means because if he doesn't know that we (this time 'we' = Randland) are in the Third Age he shouldn't be posting on a WoT theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 22:33:01
subject: <b>Sorry, I didn't mean to be unclear...</b>
body:
I meant that you and I, &quot;real&quot; human beings in the year 2002 AD, live in the 7th Age, halfway around the Wheel from the 3rd Age that our favorite story takes place in.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Toivo


created: 2002-08-31 02:14:55
subject: <b>Reply to Toivo</b>
body:
If your read my other theory The Not So Legendary Age of Legends you'll see why it didn't take so long to achieve the Utopian society.


created: 2002-09-01 20:46:11
subject: <b>In reply to Lathendross</b>
body:
You are right that the genetics could be sex-dependent, but not sex-linked, so their could be cat and dog DNA floating around, but cat only becomes active in girls and dog only becomes active in boys. So you are proposing that there are bits of dog and cat DNA floating around the genome, and if males inherit the dog DNA they become channelers, but if they inherit the cat DNA nothing, and vice versa for females. But that would still make it two independent traits which are seperately inherited, so male culling still would not affect female channeler numbers, and breeding a male channeler to a female channeler would not increase the chance of having channeler children (as happens in Shara). And this is from a biologist.


created: 2002-09-01 22:54:22
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
This is a nice idea but there are a number of textual problems if I remember correctly.  First of all in one of Perrin's POV's while talking to Hopper he has a memory of running with the wolves in antiquity.  It seemed to me that all people ran with the wolves, that humans and wolves were natural allies.  This is not a talent that was the result of any expirementing by humans, but a talent that we have lost.  Also I think that the jump to Ogiers being some sort of genetic expirements by humans seems off.  I think that they are their own creatures, born from evolution.  I do think that you have something with the senses of animals.  However I think your attempted link to Egyptian mythology is faulty.  I think that what RJ is going on is more linked to the ability of dogs to sense epilectic seizures in people before they happen.  That RJ is honing in on the fact that domestic animals have a certain affinity for and special connection with humans, and that explains the behavior of dogs and cats.


created: 2002-09-02 00:01:52
subject: <b>Reply to Adrian</b>
body:
You're wrong. If the trait (the channeling gene from a cat and a dog) were carried closely to one another and only became active during the hormonal changes in a channelers shift to puberty; culling out one would still cull out the other. We all have two sets of twenty-three chromosomes, if a homozygous (has a copy of the gene in each set) carrier of the channeling gene has children then each kid should have the ability to channel, regardless of being male or female because the parent would give a chromosome copy to a male or female child, and all they have to give are channeling genes. I never thought of this but maybe homozygous carriers are wilders? Just a thought... anyway. A Heterozygous carrier should be producing a channeler in every one of two kids. Remember if it's only sex dependant inheriting the gene itself has nothing to do with the sex of the carrier, only the activation of the gene does. Sex dependant traits are not carried on the X or Y chromosome and thus have nothing to do with the sex of the child.


created: 2002-09-02 00:10:55
subject: <b>Reply to the Ogier Guy</b>
body:
I personally would be sort of disappointed if the Ogier were a naturally occuring through evolution. Because for them to evolve without us doing the same thing a variety of circumstances would have to be met, which are unlikely.<br />1) no gene swapping outside the population that's evolving, this means no Ogier ancestors can have sex with any one who is not an Ogier ancestor.<br />2) There has to be different selection pressures on the soon-to-be Ogier population than on the normal human population.<br />It's possible that after the end of our first Age an apocolypse could have occured that might have segregated Ogier ancestors from other humans, perhaps in steddings? And the lack of the presence of the One Power caused them to evolve differently from us, but it would have taken so long that whatever had forced them into hiding probably would have killed everyone on the planet.<br />I don't own the Series Guide so I don't know exactly who said they were natural, but it might have been a mistake by a  scholar at that time... or even more unlikely something RJ didn't think of but I doubt that since his attention to detail is so anal. I just don't see how Ogier could have evolved from humans... unless their Aliens which I also doubt.


created: 2002-09-02 00:43:36
subject: <b>To Lathendross</b>
body:
Okay, if the two traits are tightly linked, and the cat DNA is under a female specific promoter and the dog DNA is under a male specific promoter, then yes, it could work out the way you said. But there are still very serious flaws with this.<br />-	why did they make it so that only females could use cat DNA and only males use dog DNA? Why not let both be accessed by both genders, so channelers of both genders could use both sides of the one power?<br />-	if a small amount of dog/cat DNA makes this much difference, why don't we see significant powers in household pets?<br />Therefore, I still think that the ability to channel is either natural or a freak occurrence, and that dogs and cats either have a natural empathy to the one power, or they were engineered to sense the one source and be familiars (now he is using material from witch/warlock lore).<br /><br />As an aside, with the simple recessive genetics you outlined (where one copy gives a carrier, and two copies give a channeler), then every child of a pair of channelers will also be a channeler (both are homozygotes). And the mating of two heterozygous carriers will give a channeler one in every four children (not two). Also, the fact that you have various levels of ability in the one power, indicate that it is either a quantitative trait, or a single loci trait with a large number of polymorphic alleles. This quite simply does not fit in with your single insert of pet DNA theory.<br /><br />Finally, in defence of dwood1978, he never said that ogier evolved from humans, he said they evolved as their own creatures. So all your comments about how unlikely the evolution of ogier is, are simply wrong. After all, if humans evolved, why not ogier?<br />


created: 2002-09-02 11:51:01
subject: <b>Back at ya Adrian</b>
body:
First off there's no way channeling is a freak occurence and the same goes with Ogier. Since we don't have channelers now, in the First Age, this means that somewhere after this there will be channelers and Ogier. And the odds of channeling, a perfectly ordered system in humans, occuring naturally without the rest of the race changing as well are probably way over a trillion to one.<br />The reasons Ogier couldn't have evolved along side us are that we don't have Ogier now, and we're probably their closest relative. The jump from a more primitive lifeform would have taken a couple million years, and that's if every random mutation was beneficial.<br />As for the various strenghts... well. Perhaps there are many copies of &quot;sub channeling genes&quot; and only the main channeling gene can activate them. Maybe these subs provide extra ability to channel the One Power. Note how Morgase is a weak channeler, but she still has the master gene to control it, but if Elayne's dad had a whole bunch of sub genes or was a channeler himself this would explain Elayne's high strength. This would also explain the various strengths and probably talents as well.<br />You misunderstood my Punnett square idea, I meant that channeling was a dominant gene. Where a heterozygote was a channeler would have to be taught, and homozygote would be a natural channeler. As for cats and dogs being familiars... why? Unless you're going to use dogs to track down people who can channel there really isn't much of a benefit. Could you please explain that idea more.


created: 2002-09-02 15:47:43
subject: <b>Another Faulty Assumption . . .</b>
body:
. . . is that the number of channelers in the world is in fact being culled.  This is an Aes Sedai theory (I believe a white idea) mentioned early in the series.  It&#8217;s based on the evidence that fewer and fewer girls who can channel are coming to the Tower and they are finding fewer and fewer men to gentle.<br /><br />As both Egwene and Taim&#8217;s recruitment efforts have shown, the belief that there are fewer channelers now than in times past is highly questionable.  The Aes Sedai presume that if they are finding fewer, then there must be fewer to find. This is pretty typical Aes Sedai arrogance &#8211; failure to consider that they are just doing a worse job then their foresisters did and, even in the area of tracking channelers, the Tower&#8217;s influence is waning.<br /><br />The Kin hid a thousand channelers from the Tower.  The Sea Folk completely obscured both the role and the number of channelers in their society by sending a few weak decoys to the Tower.  Egwene found nearly a thousand new novices plainly in the land just by bothering to look instead of waiting for them to come to the Tower.  Taim has almost reached his goal of the Black Tower equaling the pre-split White Tower.  That&#8217;s not even counting the cultures outside the Aes Sedai sphere of influence.<br /><br />The books offer no evidence that the number of channelers has been reduced, much less that gentling has significantly culled the trait from humanity.  Much more likely is that this, like so much the Tower &#8220;knew&#8221; to be true, is just plain wrong.<br /><br />This certainly doesn&#8217;t disprove this theory.  It does &#8211; along with a conspicuous lack of evidence that the ability runs in families &#8211; call into question a significant pillar of the argument that channeling has a genetic basis.


created: 2002-09-02 16:51:48
subject: <b>But Jordan is a scientist</b>
body:
Not to toot Robert Jordan's horn too much but the guy is pretty brilliant. But more than that he's a scientist, I doubt highly he's going to go off on a tangent about life force and the spiritual mojo involved in channeling. And the Tower is right in a way. Since a number of the girls they found were Wilders, and if being a wilder involves beinga homozygous carrier of the channeling gene, then Aes Sedai gentling men that channel, and Aes Sedai not getting it on enough would weed out a number of the genes. Remember most of the people Egwene finds need to learn to touch the True Source, and they are not Wilders.


created: 2002-09-03 03:11:48
subject: <b>A few things</b>
body:
I think this has been forgotten in this discussion so I'll say it now.The ability to channel has nothing to do with genes.It has to do with your soul and the ability to channel is bound to the soul.This is why the average of channellers in the population doesn't increase or decrease(with the exception of some bale-firings here and there).The child of a channeller or of two channellers is more likely to be a channeller but thats as far as you can go with the genetics thing.<br />The Ogier being genetic experiments is definately wrong because it is stated that they are natural beings like humans,but I can kind of see where you were coming from.<br />One more thing,do you think an all powerful channeller who everyone is scared of is going to channel into a rod and swear an oath just because someone who can't even channel says to.I don't think they would,they would be more likely to rip them to shreds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 21:17:05
subject: <b>Once again&#8230;</b>
body:
Why would they make cats and dogs as familiars? No good reasons except witches and warlocks did it, and Jordan likes to copy mythology. Maybe they were lonely, or just wanted to see if they could. Maybe they wanted to create more intelligent animals to help out (the same way they created the Nym) and one way to make an animal more intelligent could be to give it contact to the source - wolves certainly seem more intelligent than they are here.<br /><br />Next, it is ridiculous for you to say that channelling is a dominant trait. Since you now say that wilders are people with a double dose of the dominant trait (also, it cannot be truly dominant if homozygous carriers are different to heterozygous carriers), then all children of wilders can learn to channel, and both parents of wilders could learn how to channel. So Egwene's dad could join the black tower, yes? So Aviendha mother must be a wise one, yes (remember all Aiel that can learn to channel are made into Wise Ones? And Mat's sister has the spark inborn, doesn't she? So Mat has at least a &#188; chance of being a wilder and a &#189; chance of being able to learn to channel. Also, you can then never get a child that can learn to channel from parents that could not learn to channel.<br /><br />And you assume that channelling just came about suddenly, so it must be though genetic manipulation. What if the channelling genes were always there, but without Aes Sedi to teach others to channel, the wilders mostly died, and no-one else learnt how. You would have a few wilders around with one or two tricks who didn't know what they were doing, but certainly no-one would now about the One Power. And then one day, some wilder worked out what they were doing, and started training others, and eventually the Aes Sedi were formed. This would satisfy the claims that the wolf-brothers were around before Aes Sedi, and knowing channelling. Alternatively, why couldn't channelling just be a freak occurrence. Remember the creator? Why couldn't he have just got up one morning and said, 'Oh look how peaceful the Age of Legends is! I think people can be trusted with more power now, why don't I let them tap into my mind?' Bang, channellers. Or, if you really want to assume that this is set in our future, you could have the quite common theme that nuclear war destroyed our lifestyle, and made mutants who have special powers. And Ogier? Again, you base your assumption on the fact that this is earth, and since we don't have Ogier, Ogier must have come around suddenly. Well, what if the creator just created Ogier? Or if it isn't earth, and Ogier have always been there? Or if (as one person suggested) the wheel of time is the full cycle of the universe, and human and Ogier evolved side by side, then we have the Third Age, sometime after that the Ogier die out, and the present is after the Ogier have all died out? Or maybe the Ogier are hiding in tunnels under the mountains, remember this is a fantasy book after all.<br /><br />I tend to agree that genetics may not be needed after all. It should be soul-linked - or what would have happened if LTT was reborn into a body without the genetics for channelling? Rand would be quite different, yes? And Osangar/Arangar show that it is the soul that has the ability to channel, not the body (you could protest that the Dark One chose bodies that could channel - but they seem to be of the same strength - and your hormone linked genetics would then turn Arangar into a saidar channeller). And as for the pet DNA theory - well, it is getting more and more complicated, and it is always the sign of a poor theory when you have to constantly fix it up. Originally it was cat DNA put into females and dog DNA put into males, then you had to correct it and make it sex-dependent, then you had to make them tightly linked, and now you are saying that there are multiple loci with main channelling genes controlling sub-channelling genes with multiple copies determining strength. That's pretty weak, sorry. And the defence that Jordan is a brilliant scientist, and wouldn't 'go off on a tangent about life force and the spiritual mojo involved in channeling'? Well, sorry but if he wanted to keep it science he would have written science fiction not fantasy. Remember that he has invented the Dark One and the Creator, isn't that already showing signs that he is willing to talk about 'life force and the spiritual mojo'?<br />


created: 2002-09-04 00:31:33
subject: <b>Adrian, you sound all pissed...</b>
body:
Since this is the internet I can't really tell if your internal monologue is reasonsably calm, or if you have now passed into blind righteous indignation. So if you are pissed, please calm down. Well now that I've given my happy little hippy love message I'll reubt.<br /><br />Now the reasons you stated for creating smarter animals don't make much sense, except for the wolves appearing smarter in the WOT than they are now. And I don't think Aes Sedai created the Nym... I don't know why, just like I'm sure you don't know why they did. As for the genetics homozygous wilder channeler thing.... that was sort of just a side thought I didn't think out to well but I did have the tightly linked thing worked out I just didn't put it in the theory because I didn't think most people would get it.<br /><br />Now, Randland has to be earth and we have to be the first Age for a lot of reasons. First of all Rand is speaking English, not just another language represented by English. We know this because most of the songs rhyme and Faile once said to Loial in the Shadow Rising, &quot;you're as good as your name.&quot; Meaning that he was Loyal. And furthermore, can't remember where in the books, Mat heard a song that went &quot;trust in me said the Aes Sedai&quot; now the meter and rhyme work out in that perfectly in English. And are you going to tell me they're just randomly speaking English. No, this means that there were likely once English speaking people on the planet, the language fell into regression during the AoL and came back whenever it did... I know he says where but I can't remember.<br /><br />And seeing as how there's no evidence for an age inbetween neandrathal times and our own times we're probably the first age. So if you don't buy into the whole Cat Dog thing, at least belive that Aes Sedai were created.<br /><br />Also, if the parents being able to channel helps the kid being able to channel shouldn't it be gentic? Unless certain souls can only go to certain other soul parents? I don't know... It's late and I'm tired. I'll check tomorrow to see if this argument or &quot;discussion&quot; in groovy hippy love language is still going on.


created: 2002-09-04 01:34:13
subject: <b>Nah, I just love a good argument&#8230;</b>
body:
Quite a few of your arguments here are based on WoT being earth. You should post this as a separate theory, I think it would be a good one to debate. But the English argument has to be the worst evidence I have seen for this theory so far. Amazingly enough, it appears that English is some type of universal language that is spoken as the common tongue in nearly every fantasy novel or even science fiction novel that has been written. All authors do it, because the readers are reading in English, and that is the only reason! We don't know that they are speaking English, RJ might have translated all the speech for us (the usual writing method). And as for the meter and rhyme? Well, that isn't bad (and shows you have thought about this quite a lot to get those examples), but you would have to be a really pedantic writer to deliberately mis-rhyme all the speech. Also, if we are in the first Age, and the WoT is set in the 3rd Age, a massive amount of time separates us (think in terms of at least 10 000 years) - ask any linguist how much they think a language would change in 10 000 years! Just the last couple of hundred years has made you US guys speak differently enough that many of your rhymes and meters appear forced in English, and 'Olde English' is barely understandable to those of us who speak modern English.<br /><br />As for you not thinking that the Aes Sedi created the Nym - it was plainly stated in the books that the Aes Sedi in the Age of Legends created the Nym as creatures to utilize the One Power to help growing things. I actually think that the wolves, cats and dogs all have a natural affinity for the One Power, but it is by no means a stretch to think the Aes Sedi created them. Perhaps as a lead up to creating the Nym? Start small with intelligent animals, in the hope that one day they will be able to create an animal that is able to use the One Power to benefit mankind? A reversal of your theory, with cats/dogs and wolves being intermediates to the ultimate creation, the Nym. And why? The Aes Sedi could look after crops themselves, but why do the hard work when you can make something that will do it for you? (think computers).<br /><br />With the Rand example, we can see that a reincarnated soul is not the descent of the previous person, so genetics must be taking a background seat to the soul in at least certain aspects - and the ability to channel is definitely one important aspect to the most important souls we are reading about! Or do we just assume that the Dragon sits there waiting to be reborn until a kid is born with the proper genetic combination to be the most powerful channeller?<br /><br />Basically, I just don't think channelling can be genetic, I agree with Tai shar that it is soul-linked, and furthermore, probably a gift from the Creator. Don't get me wrong though, the genetics theories are my favourite ones! And I love the fact that so many other scientists are fantasy readers (like you?).<br /><br />Waiting for that next theory&#8230;<br />


created: 2002-09-04 14:56:26
subject: <b>In response to Burr</b>
body:
The A'dam is also a ter'angreal, and it was made to control channelers.  The Oath Rods probably came about in the same way.  One channeler created it in order to control others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 15:23:33
subject: <b>Take it outside, boys. . .</b>
body:
Lathendross,<br /><br />In response to our host&#8217;s request to move tangential discussion to the message board, I&#8217;ve responded to your language discussion here <br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=1256<br /><br />Incidentally, I hope you&#8217;re not taking any of this discussion personally, as I said in my initial post; you&#8217;ve pull some interesting threads together and tried them into an interesting hypothesis.  I admire your chutzpa in putting it up before such a discerning and opinionated group of readers as WOTmaniacs. <br /><br />It&#8217;s been batted about here for a week or so and hasn&#8217;t won many converts.  That&#8217;s cool, keep going back to the drawing board, you&#8217;ve spurred some interesting discussion, thanks.<br />


created: 2002-09-04 16:06:12
subject: <b>A Question re: the First Age being ours.</b>
body:
If the First Age is our Age, then please can you direct me to the nearest Portal Stone?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 16:50:41
subject: <b>Maybe channelling is the result of ...</b>
body:
a huge horrific disaster...  IF you take this world to be WoT in an early/later turning of the wheel.  Maybe there was a disaster on a near global scale similar tot he breaking...  maybe something that had to do with pollution or space exploration, we are starting to play around with temporal mechanics..  it's a only a matter of time before we start to find ways to bore through the fabric of the universe...  Hence, the Portal Stones..  the drilling of the Bore...  every age seems to have something happen that bores through the essence of reality... maybe we(randland humans) bore through the fabric of existence to another dimension maybe where the source is potent and bam....  rip the fabric of our world in such a way, that people die off and some people are tainted and some aren't.  It's like people living near nuclear disasters...  some develop cancers and have horrid defects... and some mysteriously don't.  Maybe chanelling is such a thing.  An effect from another dimension where the source is more intertwined with the inhabitants of said dimension....<br /><br />just My 2 cents..  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~A~ <br /> <br />&quot;It appears we're reaching a period when our senses and our minds no longer respond to moderate stimulation&quot;<br /> <br />CANADA HERE I COME<br /><br />BOO!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 17:03:31
subject: <b>in response to eyeless myrrdraal</b>
body:
Tell me about it!  I want one...  then I could go to next week and get the lottery numbers!  (ie... hurin, rand and lanfear arriving ahead of the trollocs)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~A~ <br /> <br />&quot;It appears we're reaching a period when our senses and our minds no longer respond to moderate stimulation&quot;<br /> <br />CANADA HERE I COME<br /><br />BOO!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 17:04:26
subject: <b>er... that didn't quite work out right!</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~A~ <br /> <br />&quot;It appears we're reaching a period when our senses and our minds no longer respond to moderate stimulation&quot;<br /> <br />CANADA HERE I COME<br /><br />BOO!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 22:55:26
subject: <b>To Windsor</b>
body:
If he hasn't said that, my bad, I thought he had.  calm yourself.  Also, you said that scientifically, in our world, the universe is destined to collapse back in on itself and have another big bang, hence the 'whell' starts again.  Sorry, but that ain't right and that's a fact.  By all the knowledge we have, our universe will expand forever and ever, look it up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The joke is we all have the same punchline</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 18:32:01
subject: <b>I am just being sarcastic</b>
body:
Not really worked up<br /><br />Aye, it would seem the universe is never going to fall back into one big ol blob of mass to bang again someday. But who knows, we don't understand that much about it, and might not in our lifetimes. It still could come back in someday, hard to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 01:39:58
subject: <b>Well I did a little research</b>
body:
Particularly on &quot;The Big Crunch&quot; which is the theory that eventually the universe will collapse back on itself. Thus creating a cyclical model of our universe. This would mean that even outside this piece of fiction, time would be like a &quot;wheel&quot;. Now, without trying to overstep my understanding of all this lets put it into simple terms, and that&#8217;s pretty much how I understand it too. <br /><br />In order to explain some of the problems with our present model of the universe, the biggest being that there isn't enough matter in it to keep it together, ergo, the universe will never collapse back on itself (red shifts indicate that it is ever expanding), scientists have brought forth theories of antimatter, or dark matter, to explain how the universe could some day collapse. It is theorized that this anti-matter exists in dimensions other then the 3 we know.  10 dimensions total. <br /><br />Anyway, back to our little story written by a scientist himself, and a very well educated man. He has introduced a thing called portal stones, which in fact, lead to different dimensions; Different ways that the events could have turned out. So, does the matter in a portal stone world have mass that tugs at the great whole? I dunno. I am going to have to do much more research on this then I know about it now. Not just with the wheel mind, but why RJ has set up things the way he has. I am only interested in this because as I stated earlier in this post, the &quot;wheel&quot; to me doesn't just mean constant people living and doing their thing, but a whole cosmic cycle, and to me this means, big bang, the lives of humans, big crunch. <br /><br />Even with the male Aes Sedai breaking the world, and the second breaking foretold by Rand's last battle, we would eventually find some evidence of previous ages in our own. Now I know it&#8217;s a story, but bear with me, it is never explained in the books. Wheel takes place on earth, and RJ doesn&#8217;t even touch dinosaurs, we find record of them, why not previous ages. This is so hard to put into words; I really have my work cut out for me if I am going to make this a full-blown theory. But, I think, that that the turning of the wheel of time is a complete cosmic cycle, there is no evidence of previous ages in say the first age because they are completely erased by a folding of the universe. I am talking on a full turning of the wheel being trillions of years. <br /><br />Imagine; If  the wheel spinning a cycle was measured in a progress bar a mile long, a couple of those ages, like the 1st though the fourth at least, would be a width so small, you would need to zoom in billions of times, to even see the line of time they took up. I hope that made sense. Anyway, I will work on this, I have never had a theory on theory board, and this one could be fun. <br /><br />The only cyclical model of time we have in real life is that the universe will eventually big crunch someday, and so far, nobody has proven it, though many are looking. It&#8217;s hard to say if we will even know in our lifetime. But what we do know, is that even though all evidence suggests the universe is ever expanding, there are too many holes we haven&#8217;t filled to say that&#8217;s the way it&#8217;s always going to be.<br /><br />Holy crap I have dug myself a hole!<br /><br />Peace<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 01:50:54
subject: <b>You know, thinking about this more</b>
body:
RJ has used legends of our past and given aspects of them to our story chars, and our history to make legends in the books, witch totally debunks my own little hypothesis, that it is not just people without end. In fact I even posted some of this evidence above. I guess I should tell you all now that I like the taste of my own feet, if your wondering why I have mine in my mouth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 12:52:11
subject: <b>Windsor</b>
body:
I like you post and think you should still pursue this line of thought, but I do have one quote for you.  It&#8217;s when Egwene visits Verin&#8217;s study in DR, chapter 21, &#8220;A World of Dreams&#8221; where one of the many wonders she sees is:<br /><br />&#8220;what seemed to be a bleached, white lizard&#8217;s skull, but could not be, for the skull was longer than her arm and had crooked teeth as big as her fingers.&#8221;<br /><br />Sounds like a dinosaur fossil to me.  Amazing how much RJ has dropped in there, isn&#8217;t it?<br />


created: 2002-09-06 15:26:11
subject: <b>yeah I thought of that too Justa Boy</b>
body:
I couldn't recall the chapter or even book where dinos were mentioned, but after I posted my third post in a row, I figured it was time to shut up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />My posts ended up being more me arguing with myself then anything, I will keep this idea in the back of mind though, and maybe do a little more research into it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />. I really thought I was on to something for a while there...<br /><br />This is what happens when you drink beer while posting on blackboard, let it be a lesson to us all!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 16:01:38
subject: <b>interesting.....</b>
body:
I dont agree.  i dont like the stuff as how its all dna, i prefer to have the idea that this is a true fantasy world , which means no science wotsoever ( at least not in this cycle of the wheel).<br />but the prob. is, that there is a little more to back it up. Doesnt sheriam tell one of the girls that Siuan thinks that the ability to channel has been culled out  by the killing/genling of guys who can channel?<br />in the age of legends , around 1/10 people could channel so that means that only 10% of the worlds pop. was denetically modified. so maybe , most guys have a recessive dog gene so when it is coupled with a recessive cat gene , it makes an Aes Sedai.Aes Sedais could also come from a mother with the dominant cat gene but as Aes Sedai dont have kids this means  that most will be able to learn - its very rare for any to be born with the spark. as the only men who channel before the black tower are those with the spark ie a dominant dog gene , obviously , there fathers couldnt channel (or is that true?) and so it only apprears like every 15 generations or something<br />we know that in the past there had been many more Aes Sedai than now , and as guy chanellers were usually killed, there would be a huge decrease in those who could channel cos the gene wasnt being passed down .<br />i know this has lots of holes in it , but i think its all crap anyway , about it being scientists making channelers . why cant it just be that its always been in the genes, with no scienist involved? oh well . i hope u appreciate this contribution which totally contradicts my beliefes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-23 14:50:59
subject: <b>Fantasy guys, fantasy</b>
body:
I think you must remember that we're reading a FANTASY novel here.  As soon as magic, aka the Source or the Power, is introduced, you've already gone and shot science in the head.  <br />RJ is a scientist, yes, and doesn't just do stuff at random.  He does have a methodology to most everything in the series that is of importance.  Some things are just there for atmosphere and detail, though, to give the world more color and life.  Not everything in the world must follow laws of physics and biology as we know them.  Remember, MAGIC.<br />If RJ wants there to be ogier, for sake of story of atmosphere or just cos he wants them, he can have them.  Simple as writing, &quot;he saw an ogier before him.&quot;  There you go, ogier are now part of the world of WOT.  Much like the Creator, the Dark One, the Source, Portal Stones, The Ways, countless other things, and, of course, channelers.<br />What it all comes down to is that this kind of stuff is interesting and fun to argue over, but does not matter, and is probably not something RJ took into consideration or worried about.  It's not woven into the story (strongly), it's not important to the story, and, again, there's MAGIC.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">www.scienceofshape.com<br />www.whysohostile.com<br />www.ancillarymusic.com<br />www.scienceofshape.com/sidetracked/</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 23:35:12
subject: <b>not to be presumptuous, but...</b>
body:
Instead of Chanelling being a gene splicing of humans with animals, perhaps it is a mutation of present day &quot;psychic abilities&quot;, an enhancement of them to a great extent...<br /><br />It's just an idea i had while reading this theory here, and i have no idea if anyone else has had the same or similar thought, so i thought i'd post it. Do with it what you will.<br />


created: 2002-10-13 19:09:39
subject: <b>But if this is the case...</b>
body:
wouldn't cats and dogs be able to channel the One Power? And if that were so, why haven't the dogs of the world destroyed it with tainted Saidin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-iluv2act<br /><br />Actor, singer, and ladies' man extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-21 18:57:00
subject: <b>Great Post</b>
body:
Great theory!  I love the tie in's for our Age.  I have often wondered if Ford or Chevy made Jo Cars.  <br /><br />As for the Dog and Cat DNA Theroy, right on.  Don't feel that you havew to fill in all the blanks, RJ sure the hell doesn't.  Maybe the cat and dog trait has always been in humans and that the scientists in the first age just refined it.  That would explain the witches, warlocks and wizards of the past.  GENETIC EXPIRMINTATION Happens everyday.  <br /><br />As for Ogiers, I could swing both ways.  They could have been modified or just some race that was well hidden from us in this age, like elves and dwarves. (I think we would all like to belive in them, wouldn't we?)  <br /><br />Also I think you can tie all this in to the Tolkien connection.  Remember Saramon(sp) created the Isengard Orcs by combining human and goblin DNA.  My only question is when did the LOTR cycle take place?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 15:18:44
subject: <b>Some clarifications</b>
body:
In case anybody still reads this.<br /><br />It is a fact that channelling is genetic, the guide says this.  It naturally follows that the Aes Sedai culling theory is also correct.  It is a stretch to say that these are cat &amp; dog genes.  There seems to have been discussion on whether Channelling is a dominant or recessive trait.  I suggest that it might be a multiple-gene (properly, multiple-allele) trait.  For the most part, brown hair dominates blond, but you get different subcolours and also red hair (in European-descended people).  Brown eyes dominate blue and yet there are different shades of such and even green eyes.  And perhaps the Wilder genes are completely separate from channellers, so that a non-channeller could be a Wilder or not, and you'd never be able to tell (or perhaps this is where wolf-brotherhood and suchlike come from?).  The multiple-gene idea is VERY much supported by the fact that channellers have varying strengths in their channelling.<br /><br />It is also a fact that wolfbrothers came before channellers.<br /><br />The Vulgar tongue is a new language and therefore if it happened to be modern English that is coincidence.  But I agree more with the translated bit.  Even the rhymes can be changed to rhyme when translated.  It doesn't mean quite the same thing in each language, but nevertheless Canada's &quot;O, Canada&quot; rhymes in both languages, and gets the same point across.  Loial's name could have been changed.  Mostly, though, I think it's English for convenience.  On that note, do any of you foreigners have a translated copy?  Are the words different?<br /><br />WoT is Earth, that is, Earth is another age of WoT, is a basis for this theory.  The basis is strongly supported, the net and the theory post will provide you with numerous pieces of evidence, many of which I came up with myself.  RJ has given misleading answers to questions that resolve this:  somebody cited a quote that says wotworld is both our past and future, but this is only implication.  Still, do not judge this theory one those merits, it is not very relevant.<br /><br />My thoughts:<br /><br />I like this theory in the way I like the faked moon landing theories:  They are amusing and have some neat points, but have very little real basis and I don't intend to believe it.<br /><br />On a side note, I say that our age is the First Age.  This is mainly because of Thom's references to the Age before the Age of Legends (that is, the first age), which are strong points for the WoT is Earth theory.  We don't know much about ages five through seven, maybe they are similar to the other four, but I would thing that Age seven is prehistoric, allowing for all those dinosaur bones in Tanchico (shortly before Nynaeve confronts Moghedien for the first time) and other such things.<br /><br />I expect that what triggered the Age of Legends (which I don't think was so perfectly utopian as some think, just a natural progression of current society assuming NO MORE STUPID TERRORISTS AND WARS OF COUNTERTERRORISM screw it up) was the &quot;discovery&quot; of channelling.  I can't remember where it is in the books, but I confirmed on the Net that the first Tamyrlin (male Amyrlin) was the first Chaneller.  Perhaps a natural mutation?  I really don't think we were engineered to channel.<br /><br />Oh, and Eyeless Myrdraal?  Yes, you.  Nobody said that the Portal Stones had to be built by NOW.  Just before the late AOL, so possibly the early AOL or later in this age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 13:19:36
subject: <b>Ever notice that Cats and Dogs dont like Rand/</b>
body:
Ever notice that Cats and Dogs dont like Rand, in EOTW the cat at the inn hisses at him and then runs from him, and then in TDR (I think) he keeps getting attacked by dogs! <br /><br />What do you make of that?


created: 2003-01-19 22:36:05
subject: <b>of course ogier evolved.</b>
body:
I think the ogier in our age is the elusive bigfoot. they both avoid hasty humans and seem to have an affinity with nature. Anyway, Just a thought


created: 2003-01-30 11:53:14
subject: <b>some errors</b>
body:
Osan or aran'gar (allways mix them up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />) was a male from the begining, and is now in a female body, and he is still using saidin, so if your hormone theory was right, he would now use saidar, or not be able to chanel at all (if the woman was a non channeler) And he also says that this proves the ability to channel is tied to the soul.<br />And its stated in world of jordan that aproxemetly 3% of the population are chanelers.<br /><br />Regarding the oath rod, it was made during the age of legend, and it was used as a punisment for those few who did acts of violence or stealing and such, they took oaths to never do it again on the rod, and the rod mede certain that they couldn't, This is also stated in World of Jordan.


created: 2003-07-31 20:15:56
subject: <b>Of course....</b>
body:
So clear...So obvious...A friend of mine actually thought of this before but never gave it a second thought afterward.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 04:39:51
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I do not agree with your theory about cat/dog/wolf DNA being inserted into humans.  a male or female parent who can channel can produce a male or female chaneler as a child, this would not be possible if they were two separate genes.  and humans(two-legs) have been running with wolves for a long time, before the power even, maybe even since the beginning of time or near enough that it doesnt matter.<br />They are just talents that have surfaced in humans, like ogier have there tree singing.  it does seem true that only men are wolf brothers, but the balance to that is that women can dream walk, and men cannot unless they enter the dream in the flesh using some power (one power, true source, etc.)<br />As for cats and dogs sensing the source and their responses to it, maybe they can just sense it because they can.  like gholam or myrddraal, maybe they can smell it.


created: 2006-06-11 12:17:04
subject: <b>What about other talents</b>
body:
Im not sure if anyone else has posted this as a comment but what about all the other gifts? the ability to fortell, see taveren, go to the world of dreams and im relatively sure theres a few more... however just a little help im relatively sure that in the great hunt when rand and co need to use a waygate to get to falme just after leaving carhienin they go to stedding tsofu or possibly a different stedding im not sure which, whilst there an ogier elder states that the ability to see taveren is more common in ogier aswell as a lot of other talents.


created: 2002-08-29 05:06:25
subject: <b>The High Seat?</b>
body:
Is something I've also wondered about, and I also tend to connect it to the Throne of the Empress, but their fanatical culture seems, to me, to simply be the result of their obsession with honour, and the belief that honour is more important than life itself.  This kind of social belief has not been totally unknown within the real world.<br />  As for Oath Rods, I must agree that the AS of the AoL were certainly not bound in any way, unless they were criminal.<br /> Finally, I think the strongest element that bound together their 'utopian' society was the social belief that helping others was the highest ideal - hence Aes Sedai being 'Servants of All' and yet being, in a sense, the top of the ladder.  Perhaps having all those da'shain Aiel as willing servants, food unaffected by disease and a place for everyone and everyone in their place might have had something to do with it as well...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 05:14:20
subject: <b>maybe I am wrong but</b>
body:
was it not Mat PoV get to see through in Rhudien (don't know how it is spelled).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 07:16:50
subject: <b>Yesa and no</b>
body:
Well, if I remember correctly, Semmy feared being binded because she was a bad little girl. That would make more sensethan the status  idea what with the price the oath rod exacts. Either way, it is very possible that the nine rods of dominion were the oath rods. But why would the Tamyrlin have all nine if they did the same thing. It makes more sense if the rods did different things.<br /><br />The throne does makes sense, though I don't think it was compulsion, exactly. If it were, then there wouldn't be much need for the oath rods. <br /><br />I like the chora theory, however. Perhaps it kept most people in line, aand the extremists were either bound (for channelers) or put in that chair ter'angreal that is now in the white tower being used for criminals. Wow, morbid way of looking at it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 08:34:34
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
Nice theory! The best I've read in some time.<br /><br />You're probably right about the chora trees.<br /><br />But I disagree with you on several points. I don't think many Aes Sedai were bound in the AoL. Semirhage would have been bound only because she committed terrible crimes. She tortured her patients. <br /><br />About the High Seat. There were no Darkfriends in the AoL because the Dark One was sealed away, unknown. When he was freed, all at once there were people ready to swear to him -- the people you refer to as assholes. But there are Darkfriends in Seanchan, so the Crystal Throne doesn't work the way you say it does. I seem to remember that the Crystal Throne causes you to feel awe, but I guess the effects wear off. <br /><br />Well, anyway, nice theory!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 13:27:15
subject: <b>Rods of Dominion...</b>
body:
Maybe it's a long shot, but I've thought that maybe, just maybe, that red rod Ter'Angreal that Elayne got from Ebou Dar might be one of the rods of dominion. Just have to figure out how it works.


created: 2002-08-29 23:13:19
subject: <b>mat and the throne</b>
body:
i hope there is a scene when mat must stand before the crystal throne. unstead of being awed, thanx to his fox head, will be his usual disrespectful self. anyway that has nothing to do with this excellent theory. sorry...


created: 2002-08-30 00:05:49
subject: <b>hey man...</b>
body:
pass the Chora, and don't asshole factor it<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br />heh<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 00:14:53
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
I can't really think of anything major to disagree with in this theory.That the seat that Lews Therin Telamon once sat on when he was first among servants is the one that the Seanchan empress sits on now is something I've never thought of,although it's always been obvious that the crystal throne is a ter'angreal of some sort.I'd love to know where the ring of tamyrlin is too.I reckon it's a Saa'angreal,not just an angreal.Anyway,great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 01:13:16
subject: <b>Did anyone ever notice...</b>
body:
that this writers' theories are really like 2 in 1's? lol<br /><br />Anyway the Ring of the Tamyrlin was the second most powerful sa'angreal eve created from men and it says so in the expanded glossary from &quot;To the Blight&quot;. We ALL know that it's coming into play at some point if Jordan put that in. EVERYBODY LOOK FOR RINGS!!! lol.<br /><br />As for the theory, very original. It's a good idea, though I don't think that it is any sort of actual drug. One of the Forsaken (Demandred?) said that this Age was just one big wilderness because of a lack of Chora trees, though it did not sound like he was having withdrawls <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 02:00:47
subject: <b>To Elriss Talrien!</b>
body:
I agree! And don't forget... there was a black rod too that felt like pain! That may be one too!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 07:03:11
subject: <b>More Than Nine Oath Rods</b>
body:
I believe there is compelling evidence that there were originally far more than nine Oath Rods. We've seen two Oath Rods in the series so far - and both are marked with numerals at one end, the markings that must be channeled into to activate the rod. While it's possible that for some reason they have no meaning, or some other meaning, I believe it makes the most sense to assume the numbers are like a serial number, describing which rod it is. Thus the Tower's Oath Rod was Binder #3, and Sevanna's was Binder #111 (Galina tells us which actual numbers were inscribed on them in TPOD, &quot;Questions and an Oath&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />As far as Elayne's strange rods go, the ones she found in the Ebou Dar *'angreal stash... the black rod that felt like pain could be anything, but I think we have enough evidence to say that the red, warm rod is in fact a Power-driven sex toy. The dimensions Elayne gives it make it sound about right for a largish dildo (ahem... &lt;blush&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, it feels warm to the touch, and we saw what happened to her when she channeled Fire into it. I cannot believe that the Nine Rods of Dominion would include a sex toy. Then again, who knows? &lt;grin&gt;<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-30 22:20:51
subject: <b>My God - you've just made ME want to swear for the Shadow</b>
body:
The Utopia you've described sounds like a Hell of mind control and &quot;medicating&quot; people into complacency.  If that's the case, I think I'd be first in line at Shayol Ghul to &quot;mix things up&quot; a bit.<br /><br />After all, a calm and peaceful world is a BORING world.  So boring you could calmly and peacefully slit your wrists and not even notice passing from one oblivion into another.<br /><br />In other words, FANTASTIC THEORY!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 00:15:40
subject: <b>Reply to Oath Rod Guy</b>
body:
If you read my other theory &quot;Cats and Dogs&quot; you'd understand why I think the Oath Rods were created in the first age to control channelers. I imagine that when Aes Sedai came to power in the second age, The Age of Legends, being naturally hateful of what was used to control them they broke all the oath rods they could, maybe until only nine were left. This could explain why the numbers are wierd. Maybe in the First Age they were serial numbers to keep track of Oath Rods, and since the Aes Sedai in the second Age probably didn't destroy the Rods in numerical order the serial numbers would be all tossed around.


created: 2002-09-02 16:00:50
subject: <b>About atheving higher standing in the AoL</b>
body:
You should remember that in the AoL you athieved highert status with getting a third name , which could be given to you for a number of things like sience reschearch , society services and so on . <br /><br />Anydoby cought it that Age of Legends AoL is also America on Line , I wonder if Jordan doesn't want to give us some hint , and do you think they are paying him for it . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sawa TAWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 19:29:29
subject: <b>Darkfriends...</b>
body:
If this is true how did the High Lady Suroth become a darkfriend? And second, when savanna meets with Samel in disguis, he gives her a rod to BIND rand to her, but it has a number on it (sorry I do not have a book to reference to), but it's a high number. Then somewhere eles in the book they decribe an oath rod and it also has a number on it and it's nowhere near the other one. But you are on the right track...there is a clue there.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 11:19:55
subject: <b>Oath Rods, Chairs and Rings</b>
body:
In EotW, Ishamael says Lews Therin &quot;summoned&quot; the Nine Rods.  That wording seems weird, why would anyone need to summon objects?  While it's true the AS didn't start taking the Oaths until after the Trolloc Wars, the &quot;binders&quot; (as I think Semi thinks of them) have been around quite a while longer, but I think there were different kinds, and I think it's likely that they were used on both channelers and non-channelers.  The binding chair the Tower BA Hunters used on Talene must work on non-channelers, it stands to reason, to me, that there must be an Oath Rod or two out there that will work on just anybody.<br /><br />And a friend of mine just let me know that in the WoT RPG book, the rod Elayne embarrassed herself with is called the Ebon Scepter, and what it does (if the channeler loses control) is knock the poor woman unconscious--and then proceed to broadcast an Illusion of her dreams and/or fantasies to anybody who happens to be nearby.  Which goes a long way towards explaining why everyone was laughing at Elayne, no?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I do agree, though, that it's likely the Crystal Throne is the High Seat, or the Tamyrlin Seat, or whatever.  I remember reading *somewhere* that there was a chair that inspired awe in all who looked on the person sitting in it, and that's pretty much a direct description of how we know the Seanchan feel.  I don't think it's really Compulsion, though, because I'm fairly certain it goes away pretty quickly. <br /><br />And for the rings ... I've been sitting here, pretending to do work, thinking about rings, of all things.  I can only think of two of them, at the moment - Egwene's Tel'aran'rhiod ring, and Mat's shiny new signet.  With Mat's luck, and the vague memory I have that once he put it on, it wouldn't come off, how likely is it that it's just an ordinary ring?<br /><br />I think I'm done now.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Flame on!


created: 2002-09-07 11:05:36
subject: <b>The RING</b>
body:
You asked if we had any theories about what 'the Ring of the Tamyrlin', well the only ring that I can think of is Egwenes, the dream ring(Sorry I don't have my books) Anyway if what I've just said proves true, that Egwenes ring is the one, then not only will she win back the white tower but she'll also control the male channallers. Wow! There's just one problem, I can't seem to remember who's got the ring right now, what happened to it after the Aedai had summoned Egwene?


created: 2002-09-15 02:26:18
subject: <b>More than one use for the binders</b>
body:
With the idea that the oath rod is one of the 9 Rods of Dominion, it could be that there are 9 oath rods and the only visible difference between them is their number, but if you have all 9 of them together, you can do something besides bind a channeler, like maybe that's how the keys for the Choedan Kal were made. And when Ishy said Lews Therin summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion, it could be that the rods each had a keeper, so that they could never be used for their alternate use by being all brought together, and when Lews Therin summoned the 9 rods, it was to make keys to the Choedan Kal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 10:04:48
subject: <b>And of course...</b>
body:
Compulsion. <br /><br />At least I got the impression that it was widely used, with organized teaching of it. Various people talk about their skills in compulsion like modern channelers would about healing. Sure, it's the forsaken talking but it's usually more obvious that something was taboo in their age


created: 2002-09-23 07:31:26
subject: <b>uhm</b>
body:
A little problem with this, the oath rod was used in the AoL on the very few people who commited crimes, if they where cought the where made to sware never to do it again, if i remember correctly from the world of jordan.<br /><br />There where no dark friends during the AoL because the dark one was trapped, and it wasnt untill lanfear broke the seal that the dark one was freed, so therefor how could there be any folowers of someonesomething (that to them) that doesnt even exist?<br /><br />And the Tamyrlin didnt have to &quot;contol&quot; anyone, because he was a natural leader, and people followed him for the same reason the aes sedais follow the amyrlin, and she doesnt need to use compulsion or any other tricks to make them do what she wants, they do what she wants because they chose here to be their leader and belive in her.


created: 2003-01-09 15:13:57
subject: <b>not bad</b>
body:
Interesting idea.<br /><br />The compulsion and mind control sounds alot like what's been going on in our world for the past century by the Insiders.


created: 2003-01-28 00:22:48
subject: <b>Utopia?</b>
body:
Who says that the age of legends was a utopia?  All that we really know is that it was a very advanced society.  And, as can be seen through out history, the more advanced a society becomes, the more peaceful it becomes.  I don't think that anything was needed in order to keep the populace under control, they were just like we are, but they had just evolved beyond the petty disagreements and violence that we find in our society.<br />just a thought


created: 2003-02-09 23:52:17
subject: <b>Mat's Ring</b>
body:
Oh for sure, Mat's ring has a huge part to play in this escapade.  First, doesn't it have the nine moons (nine rods of dominion...coincidence?) and a hawk.  Tuon is very interested in Mat's ring.  Obviously it holds some significance for her, but perhaps it could also be this so called Ring of the Tamyrlin.


created: 2003-02-28 18:28:55
subject: <b>Very Good</b>
body:
Really nice theories, I must say I'm impressed although...reading all the comments and stuff about oaths and compulsion, you understand that the AoL was, in fact, a fascistic policestate...<br /><br />I like it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-10-30 04:05:31
subject: <b>are you insane???</b>
body:
this comment is for raven3182 who said that the more advanced a society becomes the more peaceful it becomes<br /><br />I'm sorry, not to be rude but thats one of the most ridiculously ludicrous things I've ever heard ...... look outside your window at our world for 5 minutes sometime were as advanced as society has ever been we talk a whole bunch of BS about being politically correct......and then we turn on the news and hear about the war in the middle east and the wars in the former yugoslavia and how little erica down the street was abducted raped and thrown in a ditch last night <br />and youre trying to tell us that technological advancement is the key to a peaceful society but it's not<br /><br />so now that my rant is over I would just like to apologize if I have offended because it was not my intention I just feel that comments like this distract us from working on solving the problems we've created as a society<br /><br />honestly as i see it the more advanced we've become the more barbaric we've shown ourselves to be<br /><br />there has always been war and humans have always hated other humans but I ask you this: when other than the last hundred years has a human being ever started a war that cost a million lives? never. We've had 2 in a century WWII cost 60 million lives and along the way we developed weapons that can and most likely will destroy our planet one day<br /><br />I just wish we could go back 10000 years and start over......


created: 2005-01-10 12:34:47
subject: <b>are YOU insane???</b>
body:
wait another 10,000 years for the knife of dreams!!!! hell no!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 08:23:47
subject: <b>mmf</b>
body:
peace comes at the cost of NOT advancing. If you're not gonna encourage a dog eat dog corporate world &amp; setting up sweatshops in third world countries, well you're not gonna get very far. The more assholes you have, the more advanced you become<br /><br />serious discussion aside, the chora dope paragraph had me laughing for 5 min straight


created: 2007-09-04 17:07:49
subject: <b>Excellent (apart from Rods bit)</b>
body:
Your main point being that it is in fact somewhat like Brave New World, only with less social stratification.<br /><br />My main idea for it being short of legendary is that this was a society that was basically static. Modern economic growth is doubly exponential growth. AoL'ers were prosperous because of wide and skilful usage of the OP but at base they were not an industrial society with associated mentality. Even mass production of One Power things didn't really exist, except for binders, that we know of (and even here it sounds like it was more batch production than mass production). For instance, all those dream ter'angreal they have, and all are finely carved, individual objects. <br /><br />Such a society, despite being numerous, healthy and educated, could not advance at the fast rates we see today.


created: 2002-08-30 08:02:17
subject: <b>It is very possible.</b>
body:
Compulsion would definitely not be new to her.<br />She could be a tavreen of sorts.<br />She was there when Gitara made the foretelling.<br />She has Lan for a warder.<br />She found TDR among other things.<br />Knows more about the forsaken and the DO then she lets on.<br />She is either a tavreen or a lightfriend if there is such a thing.<br />What I am trying to piece out right now is how she made it to the eye twice. She had been there without Lan.<br />Reading New Spring there are references that indicate that between being raised to the shawl and making Lan her warder she could not have made it into the blight to the eye.<br />I would think once bonded Lan would not let her into the blight without him.<br />So the only other option is she went there before she went to the tower to get trained.<br /><br />There is definitely more than that meets the eye with this lady.<br /><br />RAFO I guess RAFO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />We come, brother. We hunt.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 08:20:20
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
<br /> Why do it only once? Especially when Rand and Moiraine were having a bit of an argument she could have done it again to tell her what his plans were.<br /> We have also seen Nyn and Elayne compelled so we know it definitely works on channelers so we know Rand is not doing anything later to stop Moiraine.<br /><br /> So yer, why do it only once???


created: 2002-08-30 09:57:48
subject: <b>Plenty of other explanations.</b>
body:
Rand becoming the strongest ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing probably had more to do with it.  The Pattern NEEDS him to get his ass in gear &amp; leave Emond's Field.  I suspect that the &quot;wrenching inside&quot; was his ta'verenness coming into full bloom, after lying dormant for most of his childhood.<br /><br />I don't doubt Moiraine had more tricks than we know of, a form of compulsion could very well be one of them.  As for why we wouldn't see her do it more often, well - it's forbidden.  Not that she isn't capable of breaking the rules (like with balefire), but she's definitely reluctant to.  And growing up as a Cairhienian noble, she's more accustomed to less direct methods of control - witness how she never uses her bond with Lan to control him.  She accomplishes what she needs via other methods.<br /><br />Not only that, but Rand begins channeling the next night - I'm not sure she'd risk using the One Power on him once that started up.


created: 2002-08-30 10:24:16
subject: <b>Moiraine did try and failed</b>
body:
I can't remember exactly where (and I am no good at looking things up) but I remember her stating that she did try to force him down her chosen path but he didn't respond.  She did that via the gold coin she had given him, Matt, and Perrin.


created: 2002-08-30 10:25:36
subject: <b>IMO, No</b>
body:
At this point she didn't know for sure that Rand was TDR. She thought he was just a dumb sheepherder (Well, at this point he was), and she could intimitate him. I just think he was feeling regret at having to leave.<br /><br />However, thank you for pointing that out. Moiraine is definately a interesting character, and has a lot of surprises in her. It will be very interesting when she &quot;comes back from the dead.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 12:36:00
subject: <b>My 2 cents</b>
body:
I think it was a silver coin she gave Rand and Mat and Perrin and I think she laters tells that the with the coin's she would be able to compell them to follow her to Shayol Ghul if she said so. And that the reason he was able resist her was for he could use the OP. And if she had use Compulsion he hadn't stand a chance but I dopn't think she can use Compulsion. It have benn forbidding since the War of Power (that is what I think) and Verin is the only today that can use Compulsion (not counting the Forsaken) maybe Rand can from LTT and Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve can if Mogdhien did teache them while caputered. So the posibility that he could it to is very small.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 12:42:32
subject: <b>Winter Dawn hit on the main point you missed</b>
body:
At the end of tEotW Moiraine tells Rand, &quot;After I gave you the token, the coin, and made that bonding, you should have been willing to fall in with whatever I wanted, but you resisted, questioned.&quot;  Likely the bond was similar to the Warder bond and she should have been able to use it to compel him as Alanna tried to do in LoC with the Warder bond, which also failed.  So it's not really Compulsion.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 13:25:19
subject: <b>Allana?</b>
body:
When Allanna bonded Rand, she said that right after, she tried to compell him, but it didn't work because his mind was so strong.  Not sure exactly how that fits in, but just throught I'd throw it out there.  I am not sure if that has anything to do with him having declared himself TDR, or with him being a channeller, or what ... or even if it would have still applied back in Emond's feild ... but I wanted to stick that in there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Susan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT swearer</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 15:25:16
subject: <b>absolutely not!</b>
body:
One of the things we learn about Aes Sedai from the POV's in the books is that most girls with the spark come to the tower with a little trick they learned on their own.  And the trick usually takes one of two forms.  A way to get what you want, actually a very basic form of compulsion.  Or a way to eavesdrop on others with the Power.  Which one did Moiraine have?  Can you say &quot;blue stone&quot;?  Rand shivering was nothing more than him sensing the Source being held.  If you are looking for foreshadowing, that would be it.  Foreshadowing that Rand could channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 16:36:05
subject: <b>Probably not</b>
body:
He may well just be able to see the logic of leaving, yet be reluctant to do so.  <br /><br />The first quote, about the Spring pole and shivering could just be a reaction to what has happened, the Spring Pole burned, the village attacked and his home attacked.  a shiver of fear is not out of place<br /><br />Also, has Moiraine shown any other signs of being able to Compel?  Would she not have tried it in TSR when trying to convince him of what he should do, instead of having to surrender to him?  Would she not have tried it on others?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 19:43:27
subject: <b>Winter dawn got it right</b>
body:
Moirane used something like compulsion, when she gave them the coins. i always thought it was compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-31 00:12:11
subject: <b>To Shadow Killer</b>
body:
It is unlikely Moraine is ta'veren but rather that she was caught up in Rand's web of desinty. That is, the pattern realized, well not realized but you know... someone would have to go get Rand if he was to be the Dragon reborn the way in which he was supposed to be. And we know that certain Aes Sedai learned to Compel as Wilders before going to the Tower and there's no reason Moraine couldn't be one of these.


created: 2002-09-02 17:45:18
subject: <b>He hasn't channeled yet</b>
body:
Can you sense channeling before youv,e done it yourself?<br />He doesn't shiver other times Moiraine channels in EOTW.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 17:46:49
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
As others have pointed out already, Moraine did not try and use compulsion on Rand.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 19:19:24
subject: <b>More than meets the eye...</b>
body:
I think if Moiraine reappears in the next few books we will see a few questions answered. This theory being one of them. My question to add to this is, How did Moiraine find them? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 22:58:48
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
I will have to disagree.  First, because Rand is very strongly taveren, he became taveren right before Moiraine came to The Two Rivers, that is what allowed the DO to find him there, you can't compel someone that important to the pattern, remember when Alliana (ok I know this isn't the right name, but I can't find any of my books right now -_-,) tried to the warder bond to move Rand, she described it as trying to move an oak tree with her hands.  If it was that easy then why haven't the Forsaken just compelled him to jump off a bridge yet?  Second, Rand's abilities hadn't devloped enough to sense women channeling, he didn't sense anything when Nynaeve heal his father, or misc other times when Moiraine channeled.  Just my pair of pennies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 12:17:49
subject: <b>HEY!</b>
body:
First of all i dont agree with this theory at all. Secondly, dont call Moiraine a Witch you @#$@#*&amp;!#!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 08:35:52
subject: <b>She sure did!</b>
body:
Actually, I would say that she tried compulsion on Rand a few chapters before that when she gave the coins to Mat and him.  She said &quot;There is a bond between us now.&quot; and neither Rand nor Mat felt like they could spend the coin.  A Tar Valon mark would probably be more than they would see in years as farm boys, but they still wouldn't voluntarily spend it.  Moiraine had to use compulsion in order to keep that coin with them.


created: 2002-12-31 14:01:43
subject: <b>I highly doubt she could read minds</b>
body:
Even if Moiraine did compulsion how in the world would she be able to read rands mind! 2nd of all, i think moiraine realized that for Rand to forfill his destiny he most make the choices himself instead of just being forced to<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vishnu of the 3rd Order <br />Recorded Time Dragon <br />Recorded Sorceress of the Fire Plane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Devoted servant of Knowledge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Novice of the White Tower (Hey im workin my way up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />Oh yes and i love michael shanks... lol.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 00:32:12
subject: <b>Other Evidence</b>
body:
Okay, I don't totally agree. But I think Moiraine can us Compultion on people (aka she knows one of the lost things people can do with the Power). At the end of tEotW, Moiraine says that the token she gave Rand should have made him accept what she said, but he always seemed to challenge her authority. She says this while telling him he's the Dragon Reborn, so he doesn't really notice. To have someone accept what you do is Compultion for sure. I'm making a theory on this one.


created: 2003-05-31 15:14:51
subject: <b>Voted No</b>
body:
If Moiraine had used Compulsion on Randwith the coin {and it would also have been on Mat and Perrin}, none of them would have been able to relinquish their coins, as they did.<br /><br />The coins were channelled in some way to allow Moiraine to find their locations, similar to the Warder bond. Moraine has not used Compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-06 11:54:08
subject: <b>Moirane could compell.</b>
body:
In The Great Hunt, Siuan, Moirane and Verin compell Rand in Ch 8 The Dragon Reborn. They found it difficult but did succeed in making Rand go with Mat and Perrin.


created: 2004-07-07 15:17:23
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
-while i think that moiraine is certainly capable of compulsion and other 'lost' talents, i don't think she used it.  <br />-its unlikely that she used compulsion to keep rand mat and perrin from spending the coins, because that would be unecccesary as spending them would be about the equivalent of pawning an expensive ring given to you by a figure you respected or were sort of in awe of.<br />-it is unlikely that rand's shiver by the pole is anything other than fear, as that makes perfect sense, and also as he doesn't sense people channeling again, or even get shivery, until MUCH later in the books at the palace<br />-when he feels the wrenching and the emptiness, it is most probable that it is either discomfort at the prospect of leaving, or the pattern tugging him to leave as he was required (as someone stated before)<br />-also, compulsion is forbidden, and moiraine shows a definate reluctance to break IMPORTANT rules as seen with the balefire.  also there are many instances where she could easily have used compulsion (especially with Lan, and that IS allowed) but it's not in her nature so she doesn't which makes it seem unlikely she would use it with rand.<br /><br />good theory, but i just don't agree<br /><br />Saera Sedai         <br />Blue Ajah<br /><br />P.S. Moiraine is NOT a witch!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-07-19 21:11:50
subject: <b>Where did she learn it?</b>
body:
Although I agree that Moiraine would have compelled Rand, I don't think that she could have.  From what we've seen of Compulsion it is a very complex weave that she probably couldn't learn on her own.  Because it is outlawed in the Tower, she would have had to have learned it elsewhere.  In a nutshell, I don't think that Moiraine COULD have compelled Rand.


created: 2005-09-18 10:09:34
subject: <b>First of all, Moiraine is NOT a witch.</b>
body:
Secondly, to fionwe:  No they did not compel Rand to go with Mat and Perrin, Rand decided to go out of his own sense of duty and friendship.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Number of people I've gotten into Wheel of Time: 6  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /> Velahrn of the Order of Cadsuane Haters  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars fans unite! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-15 18:46:22
subject: <b>Reading Minds??!?!?!</b>
body:
Come on! Every single woman in Randland seems like she can read minds.  The guys are always like &quot;She seemed to read his mind&quot; or &quot;How did she now what he was thinking?&quot;<br />Not only Moraine<br /> Also, Moraine is VERY cool<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And so is egwene<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you.&quot;<br /><br />-Rita Mae Brown</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 15:30:14
subject: <b>May be possible... but not from your main proof</b>
body:
Min was already accepted as a defacto Wise One by the Aiel because of her viewings.  And who was the first Aiel she viewed, and told them?  Melanie(you will have twins).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-31 04:50:04
subject: <b>It works with Elayne and Avi too</b>
body:
Elayne is a roofmistress (for Andor); Aviendha is a Wise One. So Rand is set. But you could also look at it another way. Elayne is roofmistress and WO, because she is AS. Aviendha is a Wise One. Min could be a roofmistress, I guess. So Rand has one-and-a-half roofmistresses and one-and-a-half Wise Ones. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 17:51:49
subject: <b>Wise Ones know about Elayne</b>
body:
Egwene and Aviendha have made no secret of the fact in front of the Wise Ones that they want Elayne to end up with Rand.  Bael's lack of reaction to Bashere's comment that Rand wouldn't be happy if they displeased Elayne implies he knows about Rand &amp; Elayne.  The Wise Ones know about all three of Rand's girlfriends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 23:20:25
subject: <b>They wouldn't have a problem with the triple wedding</b>
body:
because Avi &amp; Elayne are already &quot;sisters&quot; and if they choose Min to be roofmistress, then its all good.


created: 2002-09-03 00:06:52
subject: <b></b>
body:
From Min's &quot;toe&quot; comment in WH, she obviously didn't learn too much about being a roofmistress in the tents.


created: 2002-09-03 08:32:08
subject: <b>I disagree.</b>
body:
I find this rather farfetched and rather ridiculous cause I would think that the last thing on the Aiel's mind right now is to find a future roofmistress for Rhuidean. There are more important things going on after all. <br />Besides Rand hasn't even married anyone yet, and the wise ones for sure didn't know how Aviendha, Elayne and Min would go on in LoC.<br />You state that the wise ones use dreams to find wives for clan chiefs. I have never read that but it could be that I missed it. Anyway I can't recall that they needed a dreamwalker specifically but I will take your word for it. It might just be that they somehow forsaw that Min would be important to Rand and to the war. And it could also be that this wasn't about Min at all, which seems likely to me. I would think that they wanted a wise one to keep an eye on the Aiel and Rand in Caemlyn. And of course it had to be a dreamwalker so she could report back too instead of only listening to messages in her dreams (like a normal wise could).<br />To me it seems the issue of a roofmistress for Rhuidean or Min's position when she is Rand's wife are concerns for after the war. And even than I figure that Min would sooner become queen of Illian then an Aiel roofmistress. Rhuidean seems hardly important to me with all the Aiel spears gone. Of course they have still a lot of valuable items there but those are tended by wise ones.


created: 2002-12-31 07:05:51
subject: <b>Barking Up The Wrong Tree</b>
body:
Hey<br /><br />When Melaine went back to Cairhien on &quot;Wise One's Business&quot;, she was doing more than talking with Bael, if you catch my meaning!!<br /><br />The evidence is that Rand asks Avi why she didnt go with Melaine, and Avi replies &quot;Melaine would not be pleased if I interfered now&quot;<br /><br />That has NOTHING with Min being a roofmistress (the Wise Ones hadnt even met her at that stage!!)<br /><br />Secondly, how can Min be a roofmistress??<br />She isnt Aiel!!<br /><br />Seeya all later<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DaNi3L<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> RuLeR oF tHe FrEe AnD uNfReE wOrLd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> eViL <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Trying is the first step to failing&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> ~ Homer Simpson <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> ...i EnVy RaNd... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 13:35:05
subject: <b>I like the idea but . . .</b>
body:
. . . The evidence does suggest otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-29 22:47:53
subject: <b>Almost but...</b>
body:
We know 3 women will fall in love with Rand, what we don't know is the marriage part.  In TSR I believe that Melaine starts to let slip that Aviendha and Rand will marry.  Either it was dreamed or it came from Aviendha's very recent trip through the Aiel's Ter'angreal, either way it seems that Rand will be making at least one of them an honest woman.


created: 2002-09-02 17:59:42
subject: <b>Good theory. Sounds probable.</b>
body:
As to Burr's comment on why Ituralde would worry that the Seanchan might discover his plans, I suppose it's possible that Ituralde knows about the Seanchan Ogier &amp; fears that they might sense the Stedding. I'm not sure if any Ogier Deathwatch Guards have come with the <i>Corenne</i> aside from Tuon's personal Guards or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 19:37:41
subject: <b>Graendal</b>
body:
I wonder if some of Lord Ituralde's plans have anything to do with the letter sent my Graendal in PoD.  In ch. 12 she gives a letter to Nazran to give to him and to make sure that there is human blood on it, not only that, but she forged the letter that was sent to him.  Maybe she was seeding some plans about the Seanchan in this letter.  Or is there another idea of what it contained.


created: 2002-09-02 21:29:52
subject: <b>a thought on the letter</b>
body:
Ituralde does think about the letter in Glimmers:<br /><br /><i>This last order was different, though. For one thing, a Gray Man had killed Lady Tuva trying to stop it from reaching him. Why the Shadow might fear this order more than any other was a mystery, yet it was all the more reason to move swiftly. Before Alsalam reached him with another. This order opened many possibilities, &amp; he had considered every last one he could see.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure what Graendal's exact order is, but Ituralde keeps thinking about saving Alsalam from himself, &amp; Arad Doman as well. I think that the Wolf is improvising on that order in some way with the actions he was taking (colluding with the Dragonsworn; preparing to engage the Seanchan). I got the impression that Graendal wouldn't approve of his interpretation of things, but I don't think he's directly disobeying it. He's still loyal to Arad Doman, &amp; Alsalam, &amp; I think that one reason for his actions is to remain unavailable to receive new commands from the King which might disrupt his current plan.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 02:24:00
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
Ituralde does come across as a very intelligant man in glimmers and it would take an intelligant man to work out how to defeat the seanchan.Take away the Damane and Sul'dam and all you have left is a moderately above average fighting force.I'm sure that Ituralde and his soldiers can handle that.Using a Stedding to do that is a very good idea and should work because Ituralde will have worked it all out and I have no doubts that he is as good a general as someone like Bashere,maybe even better.I hope this does happen because it would make for great reading!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 03:31:55
subject: <b>The order was pretty clear</b>
body:
He was ordered to attack the Seanchan with everything he had. Presumably Graendal was hoping Ituralde would get totally defeated and the chaos would increase. But if he wins...<br />Also, he is named as one of the greatest generals by Sheriam's Warder. He listed Bryne, Bashere, Ituralde, Niall, and Agelmar. Bryne is with the SAS, Bashere follows Rand, Niall's dead, and Agelmar is with the Borderlanders. You could safely add Mat to that list. Since all the Great Generals seem to be on the side of the Light - all are definitely not DFs except Agelmar - we're lucky. <br />Also, Ituralde is soooo like Mat. He even says that he's not a gambler, he just knows what risks he can take - and what ones he has to take. That is Mat all over. Thing is, with Mat up to his neck in Seanchan they'll probably end up on opposite sides. <br />Now that would be interesting....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 09:55:18
subject: <b>comment to Burr</b>
body:
I don't recall if it is ever stated but they may not have to worry about Damane in scouting parties because I the stedding are probable just an invert bowl.  I say this because if they were not then any stedding under the ocean would cause the loss of channeling. I believe those areas would have been remarked about sort like our bermuda Triangle.  But I could be wrong.


created: 2002-09-03 11:17:36
subject: <b>If Ituralde wins....</b>
body:
He is now one of the most powerful generals in Randland.  This is because he is a smart enough man to know how to capture the damane as opposed to kill them.<br /><br />Can you imagine?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 11:30:18
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 11:35:43
subject: <b>But who is pulling the Wolf's strings?</b>
body:
Good theory, it's gonna be interesting to see about the Steddings, but it could very well be.<br /><br />This could still be in line with Graendal's scheming, though. The absolutely worst thing, from the Forsaken's point of view, that could happen, would be that the Seanchan ended up on the same side as Rand. Maybe Graendal's game is to have them squashed by Ituralde before that happens, or as a plan B, have them squashing Ituralde, thereby creating more chaos, and alienating them even further from the nations under Rand's control.<br /><br />(Sorry, 'bout the grammar, I was in a hurry when I wrote this) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 15:00:41
subject: <b>you the master</b>
body:
I like the Stedding idea.<br /><br />Yeah, it does seem like Graendel is trying to get Ituralde and a large army killed... but why would she want to do that if she can use him instead?  She owns a kingdom; why lose the army?  The letter with human blood is too much trouble to go to just to get rid of the Wolf.  So maybe she knows what his plan is, and has, in fact, manipulated him into it.  Maybe one of the other Forsaken whom she hates is amongst the Seanchan, and she's using her army like pawns on a chessboard.<br /><br />Is anyone else a bit frightened by RJ's statement that he hopes to end the series in 2 more books???  How is that possible?


created: 2002-09-03 17:05:00
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Graendal could be in for some trouble if Ituralde leads the Seanchan to the Mountains.<br /><br />I'm not sure if this is common knowledge but Graendal currently resides in Katar (just west of the Mountains). In LOC I believe there was a quote that she lived in site of the Mountains of Mist, and since she lives in a palace in Arad Doman, well she must be living in Katar, as it's the only marked city on the map in that vicinity. (If this is all well known, I apologize for re-hashing.)<br /><br />But, if he leads them into Stedding, she might not have anything to worry about, since we all know that Graendal enjoys her palaces and isn't camping out in some Stedding (plus, she wouldn't live somewhere she couldn't channel).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hedgehog</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 18:00:32
subject: <b>Please Stop manipulating the votes!</b>
body:
I don't understand why someone thinks manipulating the votes is  so clever.  Anybody could do it.  The thing I realized is that Mike's fix only works for registered users.  People who are not logged in can still vote as much as they want.  Bummer.<br /><br />I know for a fact that at least half these votes are bogus.  Darn, I thought we had this problem solved.  Anyone have any ideas?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 18:09:27
subject: <b>I've already posted on the Team board about it.</b>
body:
I think Mike's away from the site right now, but he'll see it soon enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 04:08:54
subject: <b>Voting</b>
body:
One way to avoid someone manipulating the votes would be to only allow registered users to vote.  Since registration is free, it wouldn't hurt anyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 11:45:43
subject: <b>Don't you guys listen to Burr...</b>
body:
The TB is not the place for these types of discussions. Which means I shouldn't be saying this, either. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Matrimony, just keep in mind that you are da man, and every comment on the blackboard says so. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> You are right with everyone that has the courage to put their names in writing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 12:07:46
subject: <b>The other plan</b>
body:
Ituralde is a wilder, he is thinking about his weather sensen, which sound very like what Nynyve had in EOW. If he knows this he may ateempt to channel his way out of it.<br />just a thought


created: 2002-09-04 15:20:44
subject: <b>if Ituralde was a wilder</b>
body:
he would still be crazy to try to face the Seachan. One full fledged Asha'man would not significantly alter a battle with a bunch of Seanchan, let alone a wilder. And now that the Seanchan know about Asha'man, they will adjust their defenses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 16:10:42
subject: <b>Vote hint</b>
body:
Easy to fix. Any reasonably good programmer can limit votes to one per IP address. It may screw people behind a firewall over, but it will work. I'm mailing Mike with this as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 12:39:35
subject: <b>Quite a track record</b>
body:
You know, I don't think I've ever read a theory by Matrimony that wasn't pretty darned good.  I don't necessarily agree with all of them (though I think I do with this one) but even when I don't, he just supports them so well with facts and quotes that I can't help but respect his opinion.<br /><br />However, as for this being part of Ituralde's plan--wouldn't the damane still be able to camp out outside hte stedding and cause lightning bolts to rain down on the Wolf and his army?  It worked to get past Mat's foxhead, it'd probably work with a stedding, too, as the bolts are the effect of the Power, not the Power itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 07:34:21
subject: <b>If they notice in time</b>
body:
If the stedding is fairly large, you can hold the ambush army in the center and lead the Seanchan right down the throat of a pincher without them noticing until it's too late. Then you close the pincher from behind and keep them bottled in. Even if most of the Seanchan army is outside, the damane will be inside, leading the chase as normal.<br /><br />If Ituralde has pissed them off enough, they'll be charging blindly after him, not setting up camps.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 16:36:17
subject: <b>Wolf joining the Pack</b>
body:
Should Lord Ituralde succeed in repulsing the Seanchan, he would join the ranks of people who could defeat them (Rand, Mat, presumably Perrin) Though...the tone of Ituralde's thoughts imply that he would not like joining the Dragonsworn, prefering to be a Domani for Arad Doman, casting the Dragonsworn in a negative light. Would the Domani general ever join the Dragon Reborn's 'alliance'? Extreme circumstances may force him to join, but would he join voluntarily?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 13:20:14
subject: <b>Just one thing . . .</b>
body:
i can't remember in which book, but it is stated that a stedding produces much the same effect as the chora tree. I.e peace, contentment.<br /><br />That would kinda make it difficult to fight a battle wouldn't you say?<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-16 11:22:52
subject: <b>Paetar....</b>
body:
The stedding did not stop Perrin from killing those white cloaks.  I don't think it would have any effect on soldiers fighting a war except to disarm the channelers.


created: 2002-09-19 03:57:02
subject: <b>Back to the discussion</b>
body:
Seanchan use flying creatures as forward scouts.  This is faster, safer and who looks up as often as down at their next step ahead.?<br />Therefore, the Seanchan probably won't know a Stedding from any field of grass from the air.<br />However, the advantage will be totally lost the minute the two forces engage in battle.  Picture a slow retreat in active combat into the Stedding. (Not a bad plan at first reading.) This may neutalize the Damane in the front lines, but the word will spread very fast in an organized army.  The Seanchan will probably fan out and simply wait out their opposition.  <br />If Ituralde can occupy the Seanchan with his forces in a Stedding hoping his other armies can flank the Seanchan is his biggest risk.  They won't face as many Damane at first, but they will be totally exposed once battle is joined.<br />Let's FAFO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 02:41:17
subject: <b>Great Theory!</b>
body:
This is a great theory, well pondered and presented! If any would care to dig through what the Ogier Elder had to say of steddings with waygates when Rand requested such infomation in Caemlyn (to close the waygates) they could verify this, however I am fairly certain he mentioned unused stedding in the misty mountains regions. A number of them in fact.<br /><br />How high does a stedding's &quot;peaceful tingle&quot; affect stretch? Would Raken (or was it To'raken?) scouts sense it so high up?<br /><br />Certainly when the Seanchan first encountered the stedding they would know it for what it was, but what would they do then... cower outside because their damane were innefectual or clear &quot;the rabblesome oathbreakers&quot; from the field anyhow? (or at least try!)<br /><br />Even were they to lay siege to the stedding, an army marches on its stomach and with the multitude of false Taraboners causing strife along the northern marches of the Seanchan held lands, that could well cause supply shipments to be hampered. Certainly they could fly some in however it was noted that the availability of the flying cargolizards was very low... could they constantly be flying enough to feed an army, and even so could they be spared for such a task?<br /><br />The Wolf has a plan, and I for one am certainly going to enjoy reading it as it unfolds!<br /><br /><br />Jheran...<br />*insert witty remark here*<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jheran...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Insert witty remark here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 01:06:43
subject: <b>Jheran, thanks for your tip-off</b>
body:
LoC, clearly indicates there are abandoned stedding in Ituralde's general area. <br /><br />Here are the possibilities mentioned:<br /><br />an abandoned stedding in the Mountains of Mist<br /><br />a stedding deep on Almoth Plain, near the great forest called the Paerish Swar<br /><br />a stedding in the low mountains along the north of Toman Head, facing the Aryth Ocean.<br /><br />So we have three good possibilities there.<br /><br />RJ truly has a plan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-13 22:03:15
subject: <b>RE: The stedding</b>
body:
This is an idea i had as well.  But this is going to be very tricky.<br /><br />First the seachan will not only have to chase the wolf but do it in considerable numbers for his plan to have any effect.  Plus the seachan can't use those raken beast to drop off a number of soldiers and damane in front of the wolf while retreating.  A big if<br /><br />Second, If i remember correctly, you feel it when you enter a stedding.  If any of the advance soldiers have ever been in a stedding this could easily ruin his plans.<br /><br />Third, the damane won't follow the domani into the stedding.  they would have to be really stupid to do that.  Plus when the first damane enters the stedding, the entire army will know very quickly they are in a stedding.  But for the wolfs plan to work the bulk of the army will have to follow him into the stedding.  Another big if.<br /><br />Fourth, the ambush has to be far enough into the stedding for the damane not to have an effect.<br /><br />I just don't know if the seachan would be willing to follow the domani into the stedding without their damane.  It is possible, since they have a very strict sense of honor though.


created: 2002-11-05 05:33:35
subject: <b>The wolf has a plan (curiosity adding)</b>
body:
Remember Bayle Domon mentioning That silverspike in the mountains which kils everyone who comes nearer than a mile of it. the thought just struck me that the Seancan dont know of it but its apparently a common legend everyone around Saldea and Arad doman knows, since Bayle wouldnt have heard of in the first place being an foreign smugler and trader. NOW what if Ituralde is goig to bate the Seanchan to it while himself going around it and thus destroying his enemy utterly and forever.<br />Feel free to comment my pragmatic massacre.<br />


created: 2002-11-09 14:08:06
subject: <b>Silver spike thingie</b>
body:
Wasn't it nearby where the Borderlands rulers met in the beginning of the PoD? I think Ethenielle thought it a useful legend, that the spike kills everything coming nearby, implicating that that isn't true. Can't be bothered to check, though, maybe I'm mistaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-21 23:25:22
subject: <b>the golden spire</b>
body:
Stories of this place spoke of mad visions, of the dead walking and death at touching the spire, so going near it should be safe


created: 2002-12-10 06:59:21
subject: <b>Remember Graendal</b>
body:
Regardless of what Ituralde's plan actually is, it should be remembered (from what I've gleaned from the theory (I haven't read any of CoT yet)) that Graendal's letter is the main impetus for his making the plan to attack the Seanchan.<br /><br />Why, then, is Graendal actively plotting against Semirhage and maybe even Demandred? Is she aiming for being Nae'blis? How does this help Graendal? And also, how does it help the DO, when Ishy and other Chosen expended so much effort to bring the Seanchan back here at this precise moment?<br /><br />I have only two ideas. <br /><br />1. A destroyed Seanchan army can't help Rand in the Last Battle, and that Semirhage is plotting with Graendal to destroy Seanchan now since Sem has lost Tuon to Mat, and the DO can't risk Mat and Tuon leading all of Seanchan to Shayol Ghul and Rand leading everyone else there also.<br /><br />2. Graendal was working with Sammael, but always had her own plans.  Thus, she never would have helped him scatter the Shaido if it hadn't fit in with her plans. If the Shaido were near the Mountains of Mist and Almoth Plain, she would know. Sevanna ended up on that half of the world, why couldn't the rest of them be nearby? They haven't appeared in any other countries. Only the Mountains of Mist and Arad Doman are total mysteries. Shaido numbers would HAVE to be more than whatever Ituralde can scrape together, regardless of how many Wise Ones Sevanna stole from the scattered septs, and the Aiel would be better fighters too.<br /><br />I'm just saying Graendal's plans are much more informed, well thought out, and ultimately more important than Rohan Ituralde's.<br /><br />Sorry about the book-length BB post I just made you read. It's part of a theory I'm working on about Graendal's scheming.


created: 2002-12-13 15:39:08
subject: <b>Stedding versus Ter'Angreal</b>
body:
Ituralde might be leading them to a ter'angreal that stops channeling (like the one in Far Madding), or even instantly kills/stills anyone who channels nearby.   A ter'angreal that Ituralde can control and activate at the time that he wants.  <br /><br />The problem with leading them to a stedding is that once the damane sense it, they will refuse to go forward.


created: 2003-01-12 16:44:03
subject: <b>Damane cant sense steddings</b>
body:
the only problem with the steddings is, what if the damane walk through the barrior and notice that they are in a stedding, they DO have steddings in The Seanchan Empire(ogier gardeners). they may know whats up when they feel that cool refreshing feeling wash over them when they walk into a stedding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-28 17:47:25
subject: <b>Of damane and steddings</b>
body:
Although you don't think realy well in the middle of the night, I do think I have come up with...something.<br /><br />First, anyone knows exactly how an a'dam works?<br /><br />From what I remember (it's 11.45 here...PM) for an a'dam to work, you need someone who can channel at one end, plus &quot;a learnable channeler&quot; at the other. Going into a stedding removes all feeling of the source, so the question is, what happens to the a'dam link when the damane and her sul'dam enetr the stedding...?<br /><br />I'll probably write more when I've had some sleep...this is just scetch-work, don't flame me for forgeting stuff. Please?


created: 2003-05-11 17:17:59
subject: <b>Regarding Graendal's letter...</b>
body:
That was merely the latest in a series of contradictory orders she had sent him from &quot;Amalasan.&quot;  He mentions how they keep interfering with his plans and he has moved fast and quietly to avoid another order that could ruin everything he is planning.  Also, Graendal sent out the last letter right before getting her own marching orders from Shaidar Haran.  Her thoughts about that last letter and not mentioning it suggest she will be too busy to follow up as she has in the past.  She might have planned on telling Ituralde to retreat before he could come to grips with the Seanchan, and she likely had no thought of him using the various layers of deception and manuver he intends.  In any event, it seems she has given him the loophole he needs to save the country from he machinations.  This was well in advance of the cleansing of the taint, don't forget, so when Rand meets with the Seanchan, Ituralde might already be fighting them.  If he wins or goes down to disaster, it could help Rand in the negotiations either way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-26 23:34:59
subject: <b>damane in stedding</b>
body:
What happens when the damane enter the stedding? Does the link between them and the sul'dam still work?<br /><br />Also, we all know of channelers reluctance to enter or stay in steddings.<br /><br />If either the a'dam's link is broken or the damane refuse to stay in the stedding, they will wait outside. No doubt the commander of the soldier would leave some remnants of the army to guard them, and may even send all of his soldiers out of the stedding thinking that it is some trap.<br /><br />This would leave the potential ambush sitting around in the stedding like idiots. The Seanchan army could then surround the stedding (using the damane to track the steddings size) and simply starve them out.<br />


created: 2003-05-29 20:24:59
subject: <b>Damane in Stedding</b>
body:
The Damane are way too brainwashed for even if the a'dam thingy breakes.  They will beg the suldam to take them and put the thing back on.<br />Also, I don't know on earth all of the damane would go in at once.  I mean........if one goes in, and gets cut off, word will spread and things will be changed.<br />About the raken things... They seem to be touchy creatures, needing a runway and things like that to take off, just the ones that cary people, not to mention the cargo kind.  It seems unlikely that they would drop soldiers in front of the Domani army, because without a runway, they would have to do just that...... drop them, unless they invented parachutes.


created: 2003-06-11 18:56:31
subject: <b>OP and the Stedding</b>
body:
To those thinking the Damane could channel outside and over the heads in a Stedding, it can`t happen.  Nothing done ouside the Stedding with the OP effects anything inside the Stedding.  This is the reason the Ways entrances for the Ogier Stedding are outside.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-22 08:54:34
subject: <b>not quite</b>
body:
I agree with the theory all the way through...until it says he's leading them to a Stedding. It's an interesting theory; one that I hadn't considered, but personally I think he's aiming for the Blight.


created: 2004-02-26 23:27:12
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with this theory, he must be hoping to lure them into a stedding.<br /><br />Purplecoats, the blight is too far away I think, he would have       to cross all of Saldea to reach it.


created: 2004-07-22 17:38:28
subject: <b>definately a stedding</b>
body:
I don't think the Wolf is counting on the Seanchan Sul'dam and Damane enterring the stedding.  Destroying them is not his objective, rather he plans on eliminating the conventional forces of the Seanchan.  While the Sul'dam/Damane are certainly effective, I think they'd be easy enough to deal with once the rest of the army was out of the way.  <br />  Ituralde knows the Sul'dam/Damane won't enter the stedding-why would they?  However, he hopes that the main body of the Seanchan army will.  After all, its generals will, he hopes, believe they are chasing only a few thousand men (mostly like many less by the time they get across the Almoth Plain).  They won't know about the other forces Ituralde has in waiting for them.  Ideally, they will rush in to the stedding, leaving a small detachment of men to look after the Sul'dam and Damane, only to find that the stedding contains many, many more Domani than they thought.  It seems unlikely they would send in only a small part of their force.  If you have 20,000 men, and think your enemy has only 2,000, you send the full 20,000, because it's better to smash an enemy force outright than risk sending in units piecemeal.  <br />  Perhaps they'll send in scouts first, wary of entering an area where channeling is impossible, but, if Ituralde is setting up an ambush, it shouldn't be too difficult to make sure those scouts don't come back out, or see only what he wants them to see.  Either way, the main body of the Seanchan army would end up comming in after him, thinking that he entered the steading simply in the hopes of escaping them, which seems logical enough.  By the time they cross the Almoth, they'll no doubt have heard word of rebellion in Tarabon, which means camping down to starve the Domani out of the stedding is out-the Seanchan general will be under instructions to destroy the Domani as quickly as possible, and return to Tarabon to deal with the insurrection.


created: 2004-08-08 16:34:59
subject: <b>Ogier Gardeners</b>
body:
Although I might be missing some information, ever wonder why Ogier Gardeners are so different from westland Ogiers ?<br /><br />Maybe it's because they never did find the Stedding in Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-02 09:55:23
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
I&#180;m quite sure it says somewhere that the Seanchan army relies   <br /> heavily on their Damane in battle. If they all of a sudden were irrelevant Ituralde could probably take them as &quot;sitting ducks&quot;, wondering why the Damane is running back...<br /><br />fanatic-templar, the &quot;peaceful&quot; Ogiers die if their away from a stedding too long, and it say&#180;s that Ogier fought in the troloc wars etc. so probably it&#180;s just that they haven&#180;t been pacified yet...


created: 2004-11-28 11:06:53
subject: <b>another greta theory from matrimony cauthorn</b>
body:
i really like this theory, it may have something to do with an intense hate of the seanchan or a complete obsession with wolves but i think it is great. go on the wolf!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-08 11:53:15
subject: <b>ogier</b>
body:
I believe I read someplace there are no steddings in S. They were away from one so long they longing went away/survived somehow and are not tied to them.<br /><br />another interesting thing about steddings that was said was <br /><br />&quot;a stedding in the low mountains along the north of Toman Head, facing the Aryth Ocean.&quot;  This is the only stedding that has extra information added to it, the rest are just a location, this one faces the Aryth Ocean...I believe a large scale battle will happen there and the forces of good or who ever drives them out wont have AS,or A-men but the stedding will counter the S damane


created: 2002-09-03 15:01:05
subject: <b>I Think It May Be So</b>
body:
It's the first good theory about what the heads of the ajahs are doing together anyway.  Timing's good with Egwene outside the walls.  Wonder what Mesaana's gonna do to twist it all up....


created: 2002-09-03 15:07:23
subject: <b>What abouy the Salidar Hall of Sitters</b>
body:
From the talk which Suian had with Egwene before the Hall sitted to declare war on Elaida , we know that there are also sitters who are younger than they should be in their Hall .<br />This is a too much coincidence to be a hapennstance , and also from each Ajah ( I don't remember about the Blue but definietly in others it is the case ) . I think that each &quot;neutral&quot; Ajah that is the Yellows , Gray , Brown , Green , White are talking among theit WT and Salidar factions , and I agree that your theory is right If we count the Salidar Sitters we will also propably find 10 which would be ready to wote to despose Egwene .<br />So what I think is that , the &quot;neutral&quot; Ajahs arte waiting for a signal from one of the Amrylins that will show which one is stronger and has a better chance of getting on the good side of Rand , in this case the 10 sitters in either Hall will wote to dispose the oposite and chosse as the succesor the other .<br />Of course when news of Dumais Wells , Rand's kidanpping and treatment , Tovienes and her group fate , will get to either group we know what will happend . Elaida will get sacked . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> And who will bring these news , of course Gawyn when he hears who leads the Salidar Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sawa TAWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 18:19:57
subject: <b>Good theory....</b>
body:
I find RJ's writing about Aes Sedai to be EXTREMELY confusing and hard to keep up with.  There are so many people to keep track of, and there names all sound so similar.  In terms of writing theories, I believe that the most difficult theories to write are the ones about Aes Sedai sitters and political organization.  So good work with what you put together.<br /><br />Basically, I believe that the 2 halls are working together.  Both the WT and the rebels have the same mysterious pattern of young sitters.  And if you throw in the rebel sitters reactions to the vote about going to war with Tar Valon, something interesting begins to emerge.  Note that the sitters were all quite shocked and on the verge of getting sick.  I believe this is because they had a plan to re-unite the 2 towers.  <br /><br />The 2 halls were working together in such a way to find a bloodless solution to their conflict.  By manipulating the sitters, they were in a prime position for a peaceful negotiation.  But then Egwene steps in, and off the radar she suddenly gains dictator like priviliges to execute the war.<br />No wonder the AS seemed so sick.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see what the net result is.  I still like the idea of the sitters feigning, and manipulating Egwene into thinking she will be the new Amyrlin of both Towers.  But once she enters the tower, Egwene will be arrested for treason.  The sitters of Salidar might agree to that plan in order to work out a peaceful solution to their conflict.<br /><br />Egwene will undergo a trial, and many, such as Nicola, will testify against Egwene.  Ultimately, Egwene will be sentenced to death.  Egwene will almost die, but then someone will rush to her aid, and suddenly relate Elaida's criminal wrongdoing to the Hall.  I believe this person will be Gawyn.  Gawyn will be the one to tell the Hall about Elaida's bungling on Dumai's Wells and also of her cover up.   <br />I also think Mat Cauthon and his band of the Red Hand will suddenly get involved in the whole medlee.  I believe it is Mat's choice to choose between either Elayne or Egwene.  He will choose Egwene.  <br /><br />I think the WT conflict is going to escalate into something completely interesting.  I believe that Rand will also get involved, and perhaps the Seanchan might also.  I think this conflict will be central to the whole Last Battle, and something that RJ is not just going to write off in one book.<br />Should be interesting.  Let me know what other ideas you have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 22:56:03
subject: <b>elaida's foretelling</b>
body:
i keep remeberinh her dream (from PoD??) about all the salidar AS kneeling to her + beggin Etc. what better way into the tower than to pretend to surrender? surrender, get taken to Elaida, and offer to 'show' her how to make a gateway. just point the gateway at GAreth brynes army, and you've got one less amyrlin, with minimal killing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 23:32:24
subject: <b>good stuff</b>
body:
i must admit i have not got a clue where JR is going with this thread. However your work on the ten sitters and the lesser consensus was  excellent. I've actually been hoping for a theory that would shine some light on wht the hell is happening with those AS.<br /><br />My opinion on what is happening is Egwene is going to kick arse. The salidar AS have been strengthened their exile, they know more stuff then ever before and they are united. The tower AS however at one anothers throats and Elaidas leadership is pathetic. Furthermore when you do some calculations it is highly probable that not only does the Salidar AS have more novices then ever before they also have more AS. Elaida has lost almost 100 AS in her stupid attacks on Rand and the ashaman.<br /><br />anyway there is a prophesy, i think perrin dreams it, that egwene is surrounded by women who one by one kneel to her. I think this means that she will gain the leadership of the AS through her own skill and brilliance. She'll do some pretty cool things in COT


created: 2002-09-04 01:40:29
subject: <b>Elaida's disposal</b>
body:
I think if they were going to dipose Elaida with the new Sitters they would have already done it, according to your theory.  I believe the reason for the voting in of the younger Sitters is that the heads of each Ajah both WT and rebels want someone easily led into certain decisions.  Look at Romanda's and Lelaine's coterie of follower's all easily led by a strongwilled woman.  That is what I think is going on. If I'm wrong prove it.


created: 2002-09-04 04:06:59
subject: <b>The Real Plan of the Halls</b>
body:
I have a somewhat different theory as to why both Halls have too many young Sitters, or Sitters chosen in strange ways. Rather than communicating with each other to arrange a bloodless resolution to the conflict, I believe that with each Hall, each Ajah is look to preserve its original slate of Sitters.<br /><br />It is not necessary for the five split Ajahs to be communicating between their Salidar and Tower factions for this to be the case, although it would help. When the Tower is finally re-united, there will be two Halls in conflict - or so it seems. This would result in two whole Halls, and either one will be chosen or the other, resulting in the loss of half of the original Sitters.<br /><br />To avoid that fate, I think each Ajah has decided in advance to fill the gaps in their Sitter's ranks with sisters young enough that they will not have enough clout to hold onto their seats when the Tower reunites. The original Sitters from both sides will resume their positions, the young ones will be thanked and shoved aside, and that leaves the reunited Tower with its original Hall roughly intact. All those Sitters with all those years of combined experience - this way the Tower will not be losing half its senior leadership with Tarmon Gai'don just around the corner.<br /><br />It could be just as simple as that.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-04 11:41:13
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
But the sisters elected the new sitters as the Tower was breaking, so for them to do so would assume that they were planning their own failure, after helping Eladia claim the Amryln Seat.<br /><br />I like the spin Matrimony put on it. This assumes that many of the sisters are still in communication between the two towers within their own ajahs, which may be the case. Certainly the SAS are still using their spy networks from before the split.<br /><br />One other thing to keep in mind about this pattern, is Suian remarking something like: &quot;there is a pattern there, and I mean to find out what.&quot; Suian is a very intellegent person, and I think she would be able to descern if the pattern was something as simple as &quot;lets put younger women in as sitters so we can kick them out when the tower is re-united.&quot; After all, that conecept should be right under her nose, with Egwene around, as that what was planned for her.<br /><br />Peace, Out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 13:59:22
subject: <b>You're Right</b>
body:
You're right, Randwashere, my little Preserve The Original Sitters theory holds a lot less water for the Tower Hall than it does for the Salidar Hall. I only came up with the theory right after reading &quot;Elaida's Predicament,&quot; it's not like something I've been working on for months or I would have had more evidence and posted it as its own theory. I just like finding holes in theories, and alternative possibilities too much for my own good.<br /><br />As far as Siuan detecting the pattern goes, that was a good point but not as ironclad as your first. After all, RJ is fond of showing how even his smartest characters have blind spots. And, many people's blind spots revolve around him or her not seeing a plot to do just what he or she has plotted before. Nevertheless, it's still an objection to bear in mind.<br /><br />However it works out, I rather like the idea of at least the Salidar Hall trying this.<br /><br />Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Toivo<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-04 18:21:13
subject: <b>Ya, but Suian has a knack for finding patterns...</b>
body:
where others see nothing. That was stated somewhere, I think New Spring. So I think it is still relevant. The thing that perplexes me is how the sitters are young in both halls. It still seems a stretch that the heads of the Ajahs would work together from both towers to the same ends. But who could know the heart of a woman. let alone an Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Jus' kiddin'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 01:40:16
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
We can't forget that legally, neither Egwene nor Elaida is Amyrlin. By Tower Law, all the Ajahs are required for a greater consensus. Neither had all the Ajahs. So, somehow, Egwene must get the Red Sitters to support her - because otherwise someone will find a way to use it against her. How will this tie in?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 06:01:21
subject: <b>Ruhira Sedai</b>
body:
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! HOW WAS I SO BLIND???? This changes the theory a lot. Not Talene ( the black ajah sitter) is going to be the last sitter ! It is going to be Pevara as she is the Red that Egwene needs. ( There are going to convince her somehow). Thanks Ruhira that changed the things a lot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 06:24:37
subject: <b>The last post was in a hurry</b>
body:
Now that I have calmed myself... In the beginning I thought that they would use Talene as she gave an oath to obey some of the Sisters and she will do anything they say, but..... now I come to think about what will happen if they discover ( I imagine something worse than what happened to Suian and Leane). When you compare the two risks if they tell Pevara she will be furios but her fury will settle down eventually and then there will be no fear. However, if Talene is chosen as the last Sitter the whole plot may fail because of her being Black. Plus Ruhira's reason adds to the choosing of Pevara instead of Talene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 10:37:52
subject: <b>Unless the Red Ajah is disbanded.</b>
body:
Whats the point of it, now? When Saidin cleaned, and the Black Tower I dare say it would be not only illegal, but very dangerous to try and gentle any man who can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 10:48:08
subject: <b>Greater Consensus</b>
body:
At the moment, I can't remember what the rules were in PoD, but is the Greater Consensus also required for declarations of war?  With Egwene right outside the city, even the AS who prefer to remain blind to the world must realize that there's a throw-down coming.


created: 2002-09-05 11:35:36
subject: <b>Egwene's Accepted Test</b>
body:
Something interesting I just thought I'd toss out here.<br /><br />During Egwene's test for Accepted, she saw her future self as Amerlyn (which has already taken place, although she doesn't have the actual Seat yet).  She also was thinking about the Black Ajah but then became confused... she remembered the breaking of the BA in something called &quot;The Great Purge&quot; or some such.  No doubt this is beginning now, with the Sisters who have discovered Talene... it's pretty obvious that there will be a major house cleaning in the White Tower and again with the Salidar contingent as soon as they get back into the WT.  <br /><br />I'm pretty sure Elaida's overthrow will not come from a consensus of the Sitters.  Or, more to the point, that may not be what the Sitters are currently planning.  I suspect that when it is discovered that the women closest to Elaida (Galina and Alviarin, especially) are Black Ajah and Elaida is revealed to be nothing more than an unwitting puppet, she will be stripped of staff and stole faster than it took to type it.<br /><br />This may also be the way for Egwene to gain a bloodless victory over the White Tower.  It may be that the Hall will be so appalled at what has happened that they will embrace her without too much difficulty, especially when they realize how capable she is in spite of her age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 22:23:20
subject: <b>Not all Red Sisters are Bad</b>
body:
Some, such as Pevera, are Reds for a noble purpose -- the men who could channel NEEDED to be handled, at least before this era. <br /><br />An honest Red would certainly see that Elaida was unfit, once Alviaran's control was revealed.  Further, with the cleansing of the Taint, the entire purpose of the Red Ajah may be a moot point (but that remains to be seen).  Not all Reds are fools.  Even Elaida was a woman of noble purpose.  Her failing was misunderstanding her potent, admittedly vague and erratic gift. <br /><br />Frankly, I wouldn't be too amazed if she actually goes out in a blaze of glory/redemption, trying to correct the great mistakes she made.  Doubt it, but wouldn't be shocked. On the other hand, Mesaana might wring her dry and toss her bloodless husk onto the Great Seal.<br /><br />Good work, Cocolino.  I'm not sure of how correct your theory is, but I certailny like the work on it.


created: 2002-09-08 11:41:40
subject: <b>Forsaken Influence?</b>
body:
Working from what Matrimony said... is it at all possible that the pattern (of young Sitters) is a plot on Mesaana's part?  With the exception of giving Alviarin her gateway, Mesaana has been conspicuously absent.  She must be involved at some level, and maybe at many.  Could she be covering her bases by gaining a hand on the lesser concensus, perhaps because it's obvious that Elaida won't be useful forever?  And could the repetition of the pattern with the SAS be due to some plot between Messy and Halima?


created: 2002-09-09 14:37:03
subject: <b>Declaration of War</b>
body:
The lesser consensus is all that is required for a declaration of war. When the SAS declared war on Elaida, the lesser concensus stood, and Sheriam asked for the greater consensus to stand to display unity among the tower. She didn't get it.<br /><br />R<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 16:53:15
subject: <b>Myrelle??</b>
body:
I forget who said that the new Sitters are in place to depose the &quot;wrong&quot; Amyrlin, but it's the best explanantion for these &quot;odd&quot; sisters.  New pople were obviously selected because as Seaine said, &quot;when we are young we cannot go against our Ajah's&quot; so this way the Ajah heads can influnce the voting in the Hall.  Remember how annoyed Myrelle, the head of the Green Ajah in Salidar was about the Green Sister who didn't stand for Egwene?  She had promised in FoH that she could have &quot;every Green Sister behind (Sheriam).&quot;  Further, Elayne reveals that she is much too young for the job, in LoC.  The &quot;too young&quot; bit isn't limited to Sitters but likely to the Ajah heads in Salidar as well.  Also, how did no Ajah head end up fleeing?  They are almost all mentioned by Glimmers and all in the Tower seem to be originals.  Finally, Siuan believed that Moria was chosen for the Hall because she would follow the lead of the other two Blue Sitters, Lelaine and whatshername.  For the record, she replaced Anaiya, who gave up her seat to stay on Sheriam's committee, or was excluded from the Hall out of resentment for the Committee's influence.  The point is, replacements were likely chosen for their susceptability to influence.  Egwene, of course being the utter cretin that she is, comes up with the age-old fantasy that young people are more flexible and more welcoming to innovation and change, forgetting that the whole reason for her selection was her youth and the belief that they could push her around.  Aes Sedai seem to regard the two traits as being interconnected.  Younger sitters obviously chosen to be influenced-and now this theory suggests something they are meant to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-09 14:32:15
subject: <b>Egwene will have Red Sitter(s?)</b>
body:
Remember Teslyn? Vewy vewy thankful to young Mat, who doesn't like to see a Two Rivers girl pushed around as a puppet. I have been thinking along these lines for a long time, and the idea only got stronger for the thought of Greater consensus needing every Ajah Sitter. Didn't Teslyn promise Mat ANYTHING if he saved her. First she said 'anything that doesn't betray the White Tower' or something like that, then she said very forcefully ANYTHING. And remember, she is reeeeally getting enough of Elaida, too...<br /><br />Jesse Bilal is a Brown sister as far as I know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-09 05:40:46
subject: <b>The ajahs are talking</b>
body:
I really liked both this theory, and the one that suggests all the too young or otherwise odd sitters will be chucked to form a cohesive hall when the tower is reunited.  I can imagine multiple ways where the consensus for deposing both Elaida and Egwene is achieved in both camps, the tower is reunited, and the original sitters raise Egwene, thus using both theories.  I certainly haven't seen any other good theories on what's going on there.<br /><br />A couple of points:<br /><br />Suian doesn't know who's sitting in the WT, so she's trying to spot the pattern without all the data.  Although, didn't she catch a list just at the end of CoS in TaR before it turned into building supplies or something?  So maybe she'll work it out soon.<br /><br />Mesaana doesn't know what they're doing (it was her asking Alviarin to find out that led to Talene's undoing), so whatever it is, it's not a BA plot.<br /><br />I read another theory somewhere that suggested Lelaine and Romanda are really in cohorts, just like Suian and Leane, before rereading CoS, and after looking out for it, their collusion seemed very possible.<br /><br />Most of all, I like the way the AS in both camps seem to have found a way to communicate (or else there's one almighty coincidence happening - and RJ doesn't do coincidence), plan ahead and generally behave like the smart set of women they should be.


created: 2005-06-16 11:51:43
subject: <b>Red Ajah</b>
body:
Since Rand cleansed the taint the Red Ajah no longer has a function.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Light Bind you.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 14:47:41
subject: <b>Every seven years</b>
body:
When I read this I thought of Shara. Aren't they killing their rulers every seven years?<br /><br />I doubt this is of any importance but that's just something that came to my mind.<br /><br />And I like the theory. Good job.


created: 2002-09-04 17:29:04
subject: <b>I saw it in the pending queue and wanted to post it!</b>
body:
*blows raspberry at Burr* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  Seriously, though, I really like this idea.  <br />First off, to answer Vanin, it is every seven years that Shara's rulers off themselves (or one does, anyway). While Burr's comment that Min is no maiden (in the chastity sense) is true, she is the only one of the three ladies who is still free of any sort of _official_ 'grown-up duties.' This makes her a maiden in a sort of legal sense, I guess. Elayne and Avi both have heavy burdens to shoulder for their people's sake, but Min is free to come and go as she pleases.  Comforting Rand is definitely a heavy burden in and of itself (no pun intended <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> ), but no specific nation expects her to rule in any capacity.  Just my 2 cents, though. Nice work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 17:37:27
subject: <b>Winter King=Winter's Heart</b>
body:
I also thought of the Shara's regicide in every seven years, but I also thought of how &quot;Winter King&quot; may be connected to the Winter's Heart prophecy:<br />&quot;The seals that hold back night shall weaken,<br />and in the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born<br />amid the wailing of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,<br />for winter's heart shall ride a black horse,<br />and the name of it is Death.&quot;<br />'winter's heart be born'--Rand getting to be as cold as the middle of winter, thus becoming a wintery king.<br /><br />Just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 20:47:01
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
After rereading my theory, I see a couple of things I need to clarify. First, the winter in Winter King refers to the time he rules, he is killed on the first day of spring, the Celtic holiday of Imbolc. Second, in the Celtic mythos maiden does not, I repeat does not, mean virgin. It means young and beautiful, unburdened by the running of a household and unmarried. All maiden really meant to them was that a woman was of marrying age, but as yet unwedded.<br />If anything else needs clarification, lemme know.<br /><br />  Alainn_Cineal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DO NOT TRIFLE WITH DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY, AND TASTE GOOD WITH CATSUP......</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 22:53:53
subject: <b>Comforting</b>
body:
Min sure as hell has COMFORTED rand enough.<br />also, the every 7 years thing sounds remarkably like the sharan tradition<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 00:08:39
subject: <b>I love this stuff</b>
body:
Every time one of you brings forth some bit of information like this I just eat it up. It makes me want to read and research this kind of stuff myself. Anyway...<br /><br />If what you say about the sacrifice is true, being in spring in all, maybe that could give us a hint to when the Last Battle will happen, spring follows the winter after all, and at the pace the books are going, and it being winter now, food for thought. Perhaps it will also happen on the day of an eclipse (twice dawns the day, as has been suggested on many other theories). I searched the net for an eclipse calendar, and found they can happen at pretty much any time. (http://www.earthview.com/timetable/futureTSE.htm). So, depending on when the third age is, who knows? (or are we on the fourth age now?). <br /><br />I don't disagree with any of this, RJ has said he pulls from many myths and cultures, and no doubt blends and mixes them together. <br /><br />I give it a thumb up.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-09 16:41:57
subject: <b>Celtic Mythology in WOT</b>
body:
RJ actually said in an interview that he utilizes Celtic mythology as much as Arthurian legend, only Arthurian legend is more recognizable to his readers so they think there are more parallels there than elsewhere.  With the amount of Arthurian parallels I see in WOT, there must be a whole hell of a lot of Celtic parallels I don't.  Bits of that interview are in wotmania's FAQ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 02:46:30
subject: <b>Wow!</b>
body:
Great theory.  I never even thougt of that, but knowing of Jordans use of mythology, why not Celtic.  Thumbs up from me<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Rokk Krinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-26 04:45:39
subject: <b>enough already</b>
body:
does every one have to come up with another mythology based theory. we already now that the horn of valiere (sp?) is rip off of the hall of valhalla, Perrin is thor (hammer), and Mat is odin (ravens and the one thing). Authurian and Celtic ledgends all mention these types of heros. But why just mention the Europian myths, the egyption myths seem to have some relavance. <br />the Dark one is anubis, Rand is Osiris ,Isis is represented by the Aes Sedie<br />one of the myths is that at the end of each day Osiris is killed  by Anubis (as in Tarmon gaidon) and durring the night (when it's DARK) is bought back to life (HEALED) by Isis. it's not a very accurate retelling but you get the picture. <br /><br /> Knower of all things Mythy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> sister of Vetitas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br />  lady of Honour <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />   Carri


created: 2003-02-19 08:21:22
subject: <b>All three women include all three aspects</b>
body:
In Terry Pratchett's discworld series, specifically in the witches books, and especially in &quot;Carpe Jugulum&quot; the three witch characters make casual references to themselves as fulfilling the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone roles.  In the aforementioned book, the eldest witch, Granny Weatherwax, contemplates quitting with the addition of a new witch to the group, and when the younger witches try to argue about their unsuitability for the roles, the remaining older witch, Nanny Ogg, points out they can fit into the roles in different ways.  The example she gave was that some women naturally personify these types, such as a relative of hers who had been married for a long time with several children but still blushed at Nanny's suggestive jokes and cuisine.  Regardless of how much sexual experience she had, there was still a fundamentally innocent quality about her.  Elayne seems to have the same quality, with Birgitte refering to her as prim, and her embarassment over asking Rand to kiss her, and her inability to directly propostion Rand.  Aviendha is compared to a mother by both Rand and Elayne when she persists in trying to hard to see to their well-being (FoH, when Aviendha won't let Rand go into Cairhien to talk to the nobles, he says she doesn't seem any differnet from the individual Maidens who treat him like a chil; CoT, when she's nagging Elayne about her choices of beverage at the Matherin estate) and Mat notes her maternal attitude towards Olver.  The fact that Elayne happens to be pregnant doesn't necessarily make her the Mother.  The Crone is also a figure of wisdom and guidance, and Min fills that role admirably with her viewings and new grasp of philosophy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-09 11:20:35
subject: <b>liking it</b>
body:
good theory. it's nice to read a non-athurian or norse mythology post for a change <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-10 17:42:12
subject: <b>Of course RJ incorporated Cetlic myth.</b>
body:
I know I am a bit late in responding to this theory, but I've only just seen it. Frankly, I&#8217;m surprised at the lack of other theories here re: Celtic mythology. I am Irish and having grown up hearing all the old tales and legends it is phenomenal how heavily RJ (rest his soul) drew upon them. There&#8217;s little point in even starting to point out specific instances as there are so many, but they are there. One thing a lot of people don&#8217;t seem to realise is the there isn&#8217;t that big a differentiation between what is classed as &#8216;Celtic myth&#8217; and what is &#8216;Arthurian myth&#8217;. Today we associate Ireland, Scotland and Wales as having primarily Celtic heritage, but lets not forget that Arthur lived in Celtic Britain, not modern day England. In fact he was supposedly born in Tintagel castle which is in present day Cornwall, still a proud Celtic (though not sovereign) nation. The stories of Arthur and Avalon have their roots in a time of transition away from that of Celtic tradition and paganism. I&#8217;m not going to get too into detail here, but just remember that RJ wasn&#8217;t working from the Hollywood clich&#233; of the Knights of the Round Table and the Holy Grail. It is obvious from his writing he took the legend in the context of what it is- a historical myth from Celtic times. I&#8217;m going to finish now but I would recommend that anyone who wants to know the true extent of how much RJ took from Celtic legend should try and read The Ulster Cycle (a modern translation of it, of course). <br /><br />R&#243;is&#237;n NicLochl&#225;inn


created: 2002-09-05 22:37:01
subject: <b>Intriguing</b>
body:
I find this interesting. I mean you're right we have never heard about it which it a little suspicious considering Jordan never just makes characters have new powers when the time comes. I had thought that the seal on the Bore was just made out of saidin because no females assisted in the strike. I guess I was wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 22:37:04
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
What an intriguing idea! I certainly am all for this theory if it really means this is the Last Battle.  But if Aviendha, Elayne, etc. were to unravel the weaves connected to the Bore, what would be the level of destruction as a result? I imagine it would consume a great part of the world.  Destroying half or all of the Westlands certainly would be a shocking (and upsetting) end to WOT.  And not one any of us would like, I'm sure<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-05 22:44:28
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
I, like Jeordam, always imagined it just like a drilled hole; but you're right- that's a GREAT idea.  BUt can someone who uses the True Source (like moiridin) see both halves of the one power? Or maybe Lews Therin has some idea how to do it...<br /><br />great great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 22:57:16
subject: <b>Weaves</b>
body:
First off, NICE THEORY! Original! Second, I think that, if Rand (I'm assuming that he'll be the one to pick them apart) doesn't really have to see the weaves, so long as he knows what the weaves are like. I mean, one can cut another person (opposite gender) weave even though they can't see the weeave. I'm just thinking that if someone tells Rand, or Rand instinctively knows through Lews Therin or some other way, but as long as Rand knows what the weave for saidar is like then he should be able to pick it apart. But yeah, great theory.<br /><br />~If the road is easy, you're likely going the wrong way~


created: 2002-09-05 23:11:49
subject: <b>COOL</b>
body:
the only problem I see with this theory is that maybe the bore is not a weave. I'd also like to point out Narishma has shown incredible skill in undoing weaves when he got calladorn.


created: 2002-09-05 23:16:23
subject: <b>Love it!</b>
body:
It's been said before, but this is a really nice theory. I can see the original people creating a passage-way to the DO, which was simply capped, so yeah, it could be unpicked if this is the case. And wasn't Lanfear one of those who originally made the bore? So both Saidin and Saidar are part of the bore, making it tricking to unpick. But Lanfear also seems extremely competent (perhaps the best out of anyone) at unpicking both male and female weaves - remember what she said to Asmo when she shielded him? Perhaps she still has a role to play in this all, as Jordan did keep her alive. So far we have all been thinking that this was balance to keep Moraine alive, but perhaps Jordan will give Lanfear a role in removing the bore, which would nicely come full cycle (especially if she and LTT work together on it).


created: 2002-09-06 00:06:40
subject: <b>cool but a little wrong</b>
body:
if you all remember that the bore was made up bye useing the female half of the source.  Lanfear and some other chick did it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Bringer of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


