# w_comment

created: 2007-12-17 16:37:08
subject: <b>too much power</b>
body:
I have not read all the comments, so this may be written somewhere already but... I think, that when someone powerful as Lews Therin, pulls as much as he can of Saidin, anything can happen. I think the amount of power wielded, under those, to be honest, pretty bad circumstances, &quot;destroys&quot; (didn't know a good english word) all protests about just how it happened.<br />


created: 2008-03-05 21:36:42
subject: <b>the proof isnt quite convincing</b>
body:
i agree with the fact that lews therin has not been spun into the pattern since the age of legends, his effect on the pattern is too great for him to have been spun out since, but it still remains that if he was spun out before, that dragon reborn would have been the dragon reborn and brought about a new age like rand is. the fact is that the dragons effect on the pattern is so great that if he was spun out more than once an age it would mean shorter age ( i mean only the cataclysmic events that signify the end of an age). this means that the dragons thread would only be spun out once every age in every age, not just this one. this would either require an event similar to dragon mount for the death of every dragon or simply the dragon's spirit to remain in tel'aran'rhiod longer than any other spirit. also lews therins obsession about illyena is not necessarily proof of this theory. the voice is meant to drive rand mad and quiet acceptance isnt exactly maddening.


created: 2002-10-25 12:42:51
subject: <b>Interesting model</b>
body:
Interesting model, but do you really believe that RJ went through this much trouble?<br /><br />On a side note, you really should define your terms (gateway carrier, etc..) before you tell how many there is.  Other than that, I like the thought process.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 14:08:31
subject: <b>Sure!</b>
body:
I can only hope that he did.  He is a scientist. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 22:25:42
subject: <b>Really good theory, but...</b>
body:
I can tell you put a lot of thought into this but i think that RJ puts in channelers as he needs them for the story. Because after all hes not trying to replace the real world with this one. Is he?


created: 2002-10-28 00:53:06
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
I'd have to disagree. Sure you have some pretty nice punnett squares that could explain relative strenghts, wilders and so forth, but one thing that happens once you have a multi-genic trait is that it starts to become very difficult to track in families - just look at multiple sclerosis or diabetes type 1 - definately genetic, but with so many genes involved, it is very rare that several members of the same family are affected even when there is a strong predisposition. And if it doesn't visiably run in families, who needs the genetics? Okay, I'll buy your idea that the DO is special and can change the rules, but have you explained why people that were strong in one life-time are strong in the next (ie LTT and Rand)? They have no genetic link at all, yet the soul inhabits a body that appears to be of identical strength in channeling (I don't think anyone whould argue that LTT and Rand are of the same strength) - the obvious answer to this is that the soul determines both the ability to channel and the strength of channelling. In addition, this has the benefit of explaining the Foresaken having the same strength and ability in their new bodies, without invoking the DO's mystical powers. Finally, we have a Creator - why? What has he done to help people face the DO? I purpose that the Creator gave certain souls the ability to channel (perhaps to aid the world in the struggle against the DO). We can invoke 'magic' since we know that the creator exists, so why not? Seems a simpler reason than the genetics theories. Possibly (and here I'll admit that I'm really guessing), the Creator starts to weave souls that can channel into the pattern when the DO is about to emerge - so before the bore was made, the number and strength of channellers started to increase, and they learnt how to use their powers so that when the DO got free they could withstand him. Many people purpose that with the DO being sealed by Rand, people will loose the ability to channel gradually, and become a modern-like world - in this case I'd say that the creator is keeping the channelling souls back from the pattern until they are needed again.


created: 2002-10-28 02:25:02
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I totally agree with this theory, but since RJ has said theere are 21 levels of channeling strength I would postulate 10 genes which code for strength, not 2. This allows many more levels, which fits better, and is prefectly reasonable; a lot of diseases etc. have _very_ complicated requirements genetically. Another site had a theory on this, and that's what it suggested. Also, it suggested that for wilders, there is a gene for having the spark (&quot;w&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. People with the recessive of that gene will have the spark, but ONLY if their strength is above a certain level. That explains why all sparkers are so strong, and why some strong people don't have the spark. The majority of people are below the threshold strength and have a dominant or recessive W gene, or are above but have a dominant W gene. Only a small minority are above and have a recessive W gene - the sparkers/wilders.  <br />Also, as for the old &quot;the Creator did it&quot; theory on Rand...if we're saying he did it, how about he just made sure the body LTT would be born into was genetically coded to be a strong channeler? That works just as well and allows for the genetics which is practically proven.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 03:54:58
subject: <b>The genetics is practially proven, eh?</b>
body:
Actually to have 21 levels of channelling strength you would only need five genes, if each had two alleles and each combination gave a unique outcome, or even less genes than five if there were multiple alleles (eg 3 genes with 3 alleles each). I think 10 was just a randem number.<br /><br />And &quot;the old Creator did it&quot; theory? Why not? He has to do something. Isn't it a lot easier to say LTT's soul was given great channeling ability in any body, rather than LTT was born in a body with a large genetic predisposition to channel, then died and was reborn in another body which had the same large genetic predisposition to channel? Sounds a bit complicated, and of course the DO is doing the same thing every time he wants to reincarnate someone in a new body - even though you'd think that bodies with the same ability to channel as the Chosen would be exceedingly rare in the borderlands, yes?<br /><br />Basically, as good as this theory is, I'd hardly say that the genetics is practically proven, a soul-linked theory is simpler, and more likely considering the importance RJ places on the reincarnation of souls on the wheel of time.


created: 2002-10-28 11:22:46
subject: <b>Life is too complicated</b>
body:
Nice theorizing.  But I have to disagree with the complexity of it. I agree channeling is a genetic trait, but I think we just stick to the simple 4 square genetic modeling of recessive/dominant traits. [1 ressesive+1 dominant = Can Learn / 2 ressessive = Spark.  The ressessive genes most likely have to be a hybrid of some sort, kind of like having red hair. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> ] Strength and the like is determined by any number of genetric AND metaphysical traits including soul. <br /><br />I submit this idea for thought.  Think of Nynaeve's description of the &quot;hole&quot; or &quot;something cut&quot; she found when Delving stilled/gentled persons to figure out how to heal them.  2 elements were required to &quot;fill&quot; this hole or &quot;reconnect&quot; the cut to perform the healing - Spirit and a gender based element (Fire for men, Air for women).  The use of Spirit could suggest the link thru the soul of the channeler to the OP.  I say that the strength of that connection thru that space to the OP is based on the soul or the souls affinity for using the OP.  This would determine strength.  The body determines if you can touch the True Source, but the soul determines to what extent.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />  Where do I sign up?


created: 2002-10-28 12:47:47
subject: <b>OK but...</b>
body:
Thanks to all that replied but Channeling is genetic, RJ says so in the BWB. So there.  And to the ohters you are right my model only gives 9 levels of channeling ability, but it is hard enough working with 4 genes (it goes up expoteinally every gene). ANd working with 4 was hard enough.<br /><br />But does the soul have anything to do with channeling?  Of course it does, why else would RJ write about it.  But as I stated the proper vessel would have to be made.  Wiring someone like LTT into a body of a geneticlly weak channeler would be like putting the wrong fuse in a circut.  LTT would &quot;Blow Out&quot; the other body with too much power. (Hey that would be a good theory on the false dragons of the past)  <br />Rand can handle him, because Rand IS him in the channeling genome &quot;aabbccdd&quot; <br />So the body WOULD have to be right for the soul to encorporate it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 15:51:52
subject: <b>Ta'Veren comment</b>
body:
you stated that you belived that the Ta'Veren genome is 'aaBbccdd' if i remember correctly.  If that is true then how do you have a channeling Ta'veren aka RAND. other than that it is an increadable amount of work spent trying to figure out how channeling works, good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 16:29:25
subject: <b>Good Logic, but . . .</b>
body:
You&#8217;ve done a good job of extending the logic of the genetic theory to allow for how channeling does not travel obviously in families, although the issue of how rarely RJ has show any channelers to have any relatives with the ability has still not been fully resolved.  <br /><br />That brings me to my issue with this whole area of theory; I just don&#8217;t see it in the novels RJ has written.  In this post on the message board, http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=9532 I address why I feel that the line in tBWB is superfluous.  It&#8217;s really the absences of genetics in the book that makes me think this whole area is us fans reading things into the books that aren&#8217;t there.<br /><br />1.)	No culture we&#8217;ve seen has any inclination that channeling can or should be bred.  The Seanchen are brutally impersonal in their social controls and caste system; the AS coldly calculating in their manipulations and uniquely aware of OP levels; and the Aiel are ruthlessly pragmatic in ensuring the strength for survival of their people.  Yet, none of these societies has ever been shown doing anything to manipulate &#8211; or even track &#8211; the birth of channelers.<br /><br />2.)	We know from direct POV&#8217;s that the teens from a farm village are aware of how selective breeding works with animals, yet the only theory we&#8217;ve seen applied to channelers is the AS hypothesis that channelers are being bred out of existence &#8211; something we now know to be false.  Incidentally, why aren&#8217;t they declining even when males are universally gentled and AS and Damane don&#8217;t breed?  <br /><br />3.)	We know they do it in Shara, but that&#8217;s off screen (as it were) and we have no evidence that it actually works, even tBWB admits channeling shows up there outside established bloodlines that go back 3,000 years.<br /><br />4.)	The Forsaken are from an age of scientific knowledge, yet we&#8217;ve never seen from them &#8211; or any other knowledge of the AOL &#8211; that they view channeling in terms of familial lines.<br /><br />As I said above, the logic of your Punnett squaring is impressive.  With my layman&#8217;s knowledge of genetics, I can&#8217;t poke any holes in what you&#8217;ve done.  I just can&#8217;t attach you work to RJs.  As you&#8217;ve pointed out, RJ has insisted on a &#8220;scientific&#8221; level of law in the metaphysics of WOT.  He certainly could have dropped pointers in there somewhere if he wanted - yet he didn&#8217;t.  If the power of the One Power could be harnessed by selective breeding, one of his power-hungry cultures would have tried it &#8211; yet they haven&#8217;t.  Even if a culture refused to embrace the idea, some individuals should have thought of it - yet none have.  It&#8217;s just not there in RJ&#8217;s books.


created: 2002-10-28 17:21:31
subject: <b>RE: Justa Boy</b>
body:
Well you do bring up some huge problems in the Genetic WOT concept.  Here is my attempt to try to answer your questions on why aren't channelers bred:<br /><br />1) On the Mainland world of WOT (Andor, Tear, etc) I would belive that the people would marry for money or love.  I think it would be looked down on to marry for OP points. Or...<br /><br />2) It's considered too dangerious to keep the men around.  It Seems to me that the ripe age for sex in WOt is in the early 20's.  I dont think a single young teen pregnancy has happened in the whole story.  So given that puberty(13-18 ) is usally when a Wilder would display power, he would be Genteled by the time he was socailly ready for sex. Or...<br /><br />3)it takes more genes than I listed.  I used a square based on two Heterogenoius mates AaBbCcDd, which in most areas would be quite rare.    They would not be able to channel, or sense the source.  They would only have a 4 in 1000 chance of having a child that could channel at Nynaeve's level. Thats alot of babies.  but if it took more genes, lets say 7 pairs it would jump to 1 in 2400.  Most races in the Mainland would have a dominate pair in the first of the genome.  Areas like Tear for example. I think that the WOTians think it is soul based and not genetic. Or more than likely they just dont know.  But...<br /><br />4)How do we know that the AOLians did not?  Lanfear was hot for LTT for a reason.  maybe it was to have a super child. Maybe that is the reason that AOL Sedai were soo much stronger in the OP. And...<br /><br />5)Aes Sedai today are prudes.  Not a lot of loving going on in the White Tower (Pillow Friends Excluded).  I can't think of one Aes Sedai having a child.  Why?  The reason is kinda of sad really.  Would you want to stay young and watch your husband and children die of old age?  Me either.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So there you go I hop it helps.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 17:23:55
subject: <b>RE: for Ipkin</b>
body:
Well i guess you are right.  I forgot ALL about that.  OoPS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 10:32:54
subject: <b>co-dominance</b>
body:
My theory is that the genes for channeling aren't dominant-recessive but actually co-dominant.  Example: red sweet pea plant crossed with a white sweet pea plant gives pink flowers, both genes are expressed.  Some of you may remember Mendel's experiment from bio class...so what if the channeling gene  and the gene for not channeling are co-dominant? Let's say the gene for not channeling is A and the gene for channeling is B. Someone who is AA cannot channel, someone who is BB has the &quot;spark&quot; and someone who is AB would only channel if taught to.  Now this has been over-simplified a bit, but I like it.  As for saidar and saidin, that is simply determined by the presence of a Y chromosome.  All invertabrates are inherently female, it the presence of the Y chromosome that changes the embryo from female to male, due to washes of testosterone during fetal growth. As the testosterone wash alters the embryo from female to male, so is the ability from channeling saidar altered to channel saidin.


created: 2002-10-29 16:10:11
subject: <b>Punnet squares are not proof!</b>
body:
Since invertebrates don't have testosterone, I guess you are talking about vertebrates, where yes, all humans start life as female until they are changed to male - but this is not all vertebrates eg in pigeons, females are XY and males are XX. But if it is genetic (and so far there has been no evidence that it is), then it is almost certainly codominant, since there are probably no actual recessive traits around - all alleles exert at least a low level of codominance. Also, for those of you who love to spend hours coming up with these punnet squares - there are almost no human traits (certainly I can't think of a single one at the moment) with only two alleles. If you were to be realistic, imagine a mostly dominant alleles present in the majority of the population with no channeling skill, and then a range of different codominant alleles each with slightly varying predisposition to channelling ability, found in rare populations. In addition, this system would give slightly different ranges in chanelling skills in various populations, based on which populations have increased frequencies of which predisposing alleles.


created: 2002-10-29 20:39:59
subject: <b>*chokes on own tongue*</b>
body:
(This post refers to many-a-post that appears on this board, I'm not singling out this one) Talk about overanalysis.  I thought that Robert Jordan wrote these stories to stimulate out creative minds...They're not real.  In fact, they're an enjoyable read, but like any good fantasy book, they're actually quite...Brace yourselves...UNREALISTIC!  Maybe Big Bob doesn't feel like explaining why the gollum are defeated by Mat's meddalion, and maybe he doesn't feel like doing blasted PUNIT'S SQUARES OR WHATEVER IN THE WORLD THEY&quot;RE CALLED to verify what he wrote.  &quot;Uh-oh, I stated that channelling was genetic, better whip out my biology reference tables so I can prove it to my Oh-so-very-interested audience!&quot; ...Don't think so.  Maybe Robert Jordan states ceratin things because it adds another dimension to the plot, or develops the personality of a character.  Let's concentrate more on the rich literary elements and less on scientific proofs.  As exciting as Rand-Land is, it's completely fictional.  If I were a writer and people veiwed my writing as a mathematical equation instead of the work of art that it is, I would vomit.  It's a story, full of themes, metaphors, analogies.  You can really learn a few things from it if you look at it with the right brain, instead of the left...If I have my anatomy correct...


created: 2002-10-29 20:57:50
subject: <b>Punnet square</b>
body:
Just read the title stupid<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 23:04:36
subject: <b>RE: RoyalAssasin</b>
body:
What?  The WOT world is mot real?  Oh my what ever will I do?  What a Jack ass!!  Do you ever think that some people have fun theorizing about the what-ifs?  As far as I can tell no one MADE you log onto this web site, then select this theory and read it.  Free will, pal, free will.  <br /><br />I don't really care if you disagree with my theory.  But if you are gonna disagree, disagree.  Make statements on why my theory sucks and back them up.  <br /><br />I am sorry that you do not have the capacity to understand why some people enjoy being OVER Analytical, maybe someday you will. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 03:46:50
subject: <b>The &quot;Simple Theory&quot; is WRONG</b>
body:
May I point out that in my theory, &quot;Common Genetic Channeling Theory Debunked,&quot; I argued that there is VERY strong evidence that the &quot;Simple Theory&quot; (that AA is a non-channeler, Aa can learn, and aa has the spark) is false, or at best not the whole story.<br /><br />to Adrian: on the contrary, RJ has practically hit us over the head with examples of channeling running in families. The examples are listed in the FAQ. What the Randlanders believe is irrelevant - RJ shows us time and again that belief and truth are different things.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-30 15:41:05
subject: <b>pretty complex...</b>
body:
Brain hurts. Ooh, look at all the pretty letters!<br />To quote the great Homer:<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> boobies.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 18:29:59
subject: <b>One thing I have to disagree with...</b>
body:
Wilders are not a subtype of channeler, but simply women (or men although this distinction can not really be used on them) who have not been found and trained by the White Tower.The term is not common, but an internal WT term with a very negative bias. For an Aes Sedai, even the Aiel Wise Ones (and Sea Folk Windfinders) are strictly seen Wilders. So the part of the theory about the Wilder gene can definitely not be correct.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 20:29:31
subject: <b>On wilders</b>
body:
In the way I understand the definition is that a wilder displayed the use of the OP with out the training nessasary for normal channelers.  In the combo theory I am saying that there COULD be a genetic conection.  <br /><br />But you will note that this trait dd is not just for wilders, but potential wilders.  Example: Elayne could have waited a couple of years and touched the OP on her own, but since she did not she isn't considered a wilder.  this theory would consider her a POTIENTAL WILDER. <br /><br />As far as I have seen most Wilders are stronger than those that have been taught to touch the OP.  Examples: Rand, Taim, Logain, Nynaeve.... So the negative termanology by the White Tower may just be jealously. <br /><br />But I could be wrong since it is just a theory.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />By the way all listed Channelers above should be geneome &quot;aabbccdd&quot; or in the exceptional catagory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 21:56:42
subject: <b>Channeling is a metaphysic trait!</b>
body:
An interesting theory, but I think that there are some things that must be taken in to count...<br /><br />1. The Power itself is a metaphysical thing. (why else would he devide it up in to the classic greek elements + soul)?<br /> <br />2. the soul wandering isssue....<br /><br />3. The fact that Jordan has stated many times that the Power is in everything, human, dog, tree and stone. Which does not seem very scientific to me...<br /><br />4. The only character (channeler) in ther series who has got a close relative who also can channel is Elayne, and one (1) out of [X] people in Randland, is not enough to be concidered a proof for inheritation of channeling abilities.<br /><br />5. but then again...we do not know of any Aes Sedai - Ashaman (spelling? -it's 03:57 in sweden...zzzz...) children.<br /><br />6.The fact that Tarmon gaidon is drawing near, which creates the need for the heroes to fight the DO, and also the need for channelers.<br /><br />7. but then again the possibility that the oath rod makes one infertile and the fact that the number of new Novices in the tower is shrinking (i.e. less people to carry on the genes...)does support the genetics theory.<br /><br /><br />The bottom line is: ARRRRRRGH I DONT KNOW!!! but, I do not think that is was mr. Jordans intention to put in a parenthesis on genetics..... <br /><br /><br />//feels like my brain is working at about -235% of its capacity right now, I can assure you (.....zzzzzzzz...zzz..zzzz..). So dont mind the spelling plz! \<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-05 11:59:37
subject: <b>Enough</b>
body:
I think that this theory really sums this stuff up.  Though it is pretty facinating, I think we've all (my self included0 taken this too far.  Though RJ does a ton of research and work into his writing, he will always leave some things not explained.  Thats the thing fantasy, not everything can be explained.  If everything was able to be explained and manipulated, I'd have to say this would be a pathetic fantasy series (which it is not).<br /><br />Sir Babi Hong, knight of the castle making


created: 2002-11-05 11:59:48
subject: <b>Enough</b>
body:
I think that this theory really sums this stuff up.  Though it is pretty facinating, I think we've all (my self included) taken this too far.  Though RJ does a ton of research and work into his writing, he will always leave some things not explained.  Thats the thing fantasy, not everything can be explained.  If everything was able to be explained and manipulated, I'd have to say this would be a pathetic fantasy series (which it is not).<br /><br />Sir Babi Hong, knight of the castle making


created: 2002-11-05 12:06:34
subject: <b>Oops</b>
body:
Did I post that twice? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-07 15:35:31
subject: <b>On channeler's relatives and breeding out the ability</b>
body:
Hmm, a few examples - Moiraine is aunt to Elayne (father's side) and Elayne's mother has some tiny ability.<br /><br />Talaan (?) the Sea Folk Windfinder apprentice has at least mother, aunt, cousin and grandmother who can channel, I think. (Look to the WH where Nynaeve is teaching the Windfinders for more exact reference).<br /><br />There are damane sisters, I think in WH where Tuon is coming to Ebou Dar. Damane are always women with the spark inborn; sul'dam are the ones who can be taught.<br /><br />Vandene and Adeleas are sisters. It doesn't say whether they are twins, but both can channel and if I understood right, are relatively strong.<br /><br />On breeding the ability out of the gene pool - not likely if we take this genetic theory for a &quot;fact&quot;. First; plenty of people not able to channel with such genes that it is possible for their children to channel.<br /><br />Second; only males with the spark are gentled or die of their channeling, and with men the spark manifests later than with women. 16-25 maybe? Thus it is possible for them to have children before that. Also, the men who can learn are free to reproduce.<br /><br />On the mainland, women with spark die, go to WT or just live with the ability, sometimes as Wisdom's or such. Of the women who can learn, some go to WT (and might be put out, too). The percentage of potential channelers becoming Aes Sedai is quite low, I would think.<br /><br />With Aiel, what I wrote about mainland male channelers applies there. All Aiel women with the possibility to channel are found, but they can have children; Melaine is pregnant according to Min. The same is likely true with Sea Folk.<br /><br />In Seanchan, damane can't have children and sul'dam are unlikely to have any. However, becoming sul'dam appears to be voluntary, and there's always those non-able people who can have channeling-able children. With men, same as in mainland.<br /><br />In Shara, channelers are in a way bred. However, the theory leaves it quite possible for channeling people to be born outside the channeling bloodlines; the AaBbCcDd x AaBbCcDd that the theory writer used would be one such case. Thus, that too is explained.<br /><br />I like to waste my time over-analyzing and like to read other people's results of such activity. Nice theory! I hope something like that is what RJ had in mind, at least vaguely in mind. &quot;Some people just can channel&quot; sounds too sloppy an explanation to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Oh, about Rand: it can be said that his &quot;breeding&quot; was quite carefully controlled by fate, so it wouldn't be a chance his strenght equals LTT.<br /><br />And about the 'gars: I think the normal &quot;rules&quot; don't necessarily apply to their situation, as they weren't reborn but rather moved to new bodies.<br /><br />Oh, and I think that strength might have some factors outside the gene set determining the ability to channel. Straight-on-soul-theory doesn't appeal to me: I don't think that being or not being able to channel in previous life necessarily affects the next. Rand, of course, is the special case.<br /><br />Phaw, I got long-winded! Anyways, good theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 14:53:47
subject: <b>Maybe Heroes of the Wheel twist genetics</b>
body:
... in some way, a perfect example is Birgitte. Thom says he knows stories which could be about her under a different name and life, with different hair but otherwise identical features. <br /><br />This would explain why Rand and LTT have similar/identical strengths. For those of you who believe in the Olver/Gaidal theory that's another good example.<br /><br />I'm not saying all aspects of a Heroe's genome would be the same (at least not every time they're reborn) but chunks of it.<br /><br />The chance element involoved in genetics must be affected by the soul or something similar.<br /><br />As for recylced Forsaken... maybe the DO can forcibly mutate DNA so that it will accept changes when the new soul is forced into the body.<br /><br />This is just an possible addition to that great theory, which I totally agree with.<br />


created: 2003-11-11 15:13:27
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
Interesting thery =) i believe the trait is genetic, in randlan the could be something else to it too, thouhg... Its just that genetics is so coplicated that there are so many ways to make work in inheritance level....<br /><br />just to throw another bone to chew at consider the way the genes that code for immonoglobulins. the actual gene for coding for example IgG consist of several parts of which the workin gene is constructed for every lymphosyte. the are several ways to put the gene together and the result is always different. so when applied here to channling the result for someone to be able to channel he/she must have the gene put together the right way (or one of the right ways -&gt; the assemlblage determinating strenght). So there would no need to diffentiate between the ability to channel being dominant or resessive trait. Just that the persons not able to channel would have the parts that make the person to channel deleted at some point of development. <br /><br /> the gene for channeling could be chopped when the nerve tissue starts to diffentiate from the rests. in the germ line cells the gene would stay untouched. this way all men and women could have any kind of child. and the trait not so obviously inherited fenotype. the fact that the trait could run in families could be perhaps explaned by a regulatorygene(product) that enhances the possibility of the &quot;winning&quot; combination. <br /><br />does this seem a bit too complicated? most sertainly yes! far fetched? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> but i had fun developing it! btw should i&#180;ve made this my own theory...<br />


created: 2005-08-18 21:03:33
subject: <b>Good Theory, But...</b>
body:
I enjoy overanalyzing as much as the next guy, but I feel that family members should begin to worry apout your social and mental health.  <br /><br />&quot;When you start to map the genetics of fictional charecters, you know you need to get a girlfriend&quot;<br />                           -Ashaman Assassin<br />                                   &quot;Good Theory, But...&quot;


created: 2005-10-28 22:11:55
subject: <b>Wilder = Strength</b>
body:
I don't agree with that. Elayne and Egwene, although not wilders could have been if not found by the WT. They are not strong at all compared to Nynaeve, and Sharina (I think that's her name) could only learn to channell if taught and her potential is more that Nynaeve's. I agree that the combinations are complicated, just as you said, but I don't agree with the comment that wilders are always stronger.


created: 2008-03-06 02:19:30
subject: <b>this was good</b>
body:
this was intresting and helped explain a lot, we're studing the genome at school and that helped me understand this<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-29 20:47:51
subject: <b>too much information</b>
body:
Biology wasn't my favorite subject in high school. So all this talk of dominants, recessives, co-dominants and gateways is giving me a headache.<br />What if the ability to channel is the only gene, and the spark is a mutation of said gene?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 14:07:11
subject: <b>I have to disagree on the gholam as living Cuendillar...</b>
body:
Cuendillar becomes stronger when the Power is used against it.  Weaves directed at a gholam simply fall apart. The One Power acts very differently in each case.  The characteristics of cuendillar and gholam are therefore quite different.<br /><br />Also, on a less convincing note, cuendillar is a very strong, unbending material.  Granted we've seen instances of inanimate, normally sturdy objects being manipulated in such a way as to create the illusion of movement (table in Rand's room in the Stone of Tear for instance) but cuendillar is a special material that would, in my mind, only become stronger and more solid if manipulated in any way with the One Power.  (How's that for a run-on sentence...) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-25 15:55:01
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
Ok I buy it.  <br />Maybe if Matt's Medallion and the Gho'lam are made of the safe &quot;stuff&quot; it was a biofeedback that hurt the Gho'lam.  <br /><br />Kind of like negative + negative=Postive. Mat wouldn't feel any thing because his medallion isn't setient.  Good Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 00:59:36
subject: <b>gholams could be made of the one power</b>
body:
I always thought that Gholams were made of the one power, sort of inverted slippery weaves so the one power slides off them. so an object that absorbs the one power would naturally hurt them - how to kill a gholam? ask them to visit a stedding. also, if they are made of the one power they are not real living flesh, so they could slide through cracks and so forth, perhaps have powerful senses, are not limited in their physical strength by muscles, and all the other special features gholams come with. perhaps the true power instead? who knows?


created: 2002-10-28 01:00:04
subject: <b>Steddings work differently</b>
body:
The difference with a stedding is that channelers lose access to the one power. The same it true for Far Madding. When someone uses a well (sort of a like a battery), they can channel within the stedding, so it does not dissolve the one power.<br />So yes, it's entirely different things.<br /><br />Helene<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wouldn't it have been funnier if JFK had gone to Hamburg?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 02:01:03
subject: <b>To me, it's always been about when two like things combine, they cancel eachother out</b>
body:
Shadar Lagoth (an evil) and the Taint (an evil) fought eachother and destroyed eachother.<br /><br />Mat's medallion (blocks the Power) and a Gho'lam (blocks the Power) fight eacthother and destroy eachot... wait, did Mat's medalion get marred when it touched the golem? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 05:03:29
subject: <b>Follow Up</b>
body:
I see my theory here is being knocked around quite well.  But I want to throw another idea in to fan the flames.<br /><br />Cuendillar as solid One Power?  We saw saidin as a fluid (I think, it didn't have any ripples), the Eye of the World.  So I can believe that a gholam is made from the OP.  A critical question I would really appreciate answered is does it EXACTLY say that the weaves fell apart when the hit the gholam?  (This will help with the stedding question).<br /><br />But what if both halves of the OP are made manifest like the Eye of the World together?  Maybe then it would be solid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 08:22:38
subject: <b>Gholem v Medallion</b>
body:
I like the idea about the feedback damaging the Gholem. This would mean that the medallion is being damaged at the same time. Won't it be fun, Mat realizing that the only way to destroy the gholem is to sacrifice the medallion and his immunity. Or maybe it's already damaged and next time someone channels at him, he becomes a very surprised Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 09:09:19
subject: <b>Mat's medallion...</b>
body:
still works even after the encounter with the encounter with the gholam, so it doesn't appear that the two simply cancel each other out i.e. the medallion wasn't 'hurt' in the same way as the gholam (although admittedly it was only a touch- prolonged exposure might destroy both gholam and ter'angreal). Unfortunalty we just don't know enough about how either cancels out the one power- do they both do it the same way or are there various means. If the latter is true it might support the idea of cancelling each other out, while if the former was the case maybe there was some kind of 'overload'?<br />  As to the gholam being purely a construct of the one power, as in it's somehow 'living one power' as some people seem to be suggesting, this seems unlikely. The existence of the eye of the world shows only that the one power can be consentrated, not animated. It was not even proved that the eye was physical (pebble appearing to get larger as it fell isn't consistent with the one power simply being converted into a physical fluid), it might merely have been the case that in such a concentrated state it can be it can be detected by non-channellers. All the other power objects seen so far have apparently needed a physical basis which is then altered, why should the gholam be different. What we need is for Mat to tough his medallion to some other angreal and see if it is destroyed- if it is it suggests that the gholam is hurt by the disruption of power bonds keeping it in existence, if not it suggests there is something more to the gholam and medallion lacking in other artifacts of the power, and that it is this aspect which causes such a violent reaction between the two.<br />  Just had a thought- we know that weaves can be cut, we've seen the Forsaken (and I think Rand though could be wrong) do it, e.g. in tDR(?) Lanfear slices the bonds Rand is using to hold her against the wall. Could it be that the medallion and/or the gholam progects some kind of web (made from inverted weaves) which cuts any weave directed in that direction? Just a suggestion, no idea if it fits in at all with the facts. If it was true though couldn't channellers do the same thing- imagine an army covered by this sought of 'shield' sent to defeat the Seanchan and their damane. On the other hand if it was the case why haven't the Forsaken be using armies of Trollocs shielded in this way- unless it's all part of the DO's grand scheme? I feel I'd better give up before contemplating all the possiblities of Wheel of Time drives me insane! So, uh, yeah, think about what I said (and probably mock it- these are after all only ramblings)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 11:45:36
subject: <b>Refining</b>
body:
My original idea had nothing to do with cancelling out of anything.  I don't think this is what is happening.  The idea was that the gholam was &quot;changed&quot; in a similar way that ter'angreal (and supposedly angreal and sa'angreal) and that's where it came from.<br /><br />Again the question is &quot;Did the weaves used against the gholam FALL APART'? Or were they just ineffective?  If they fell apart, then I don't know what to say.  But if they were just ineffective, then I would say that the nature of cuendillar is that it is sustained by the OP in some way. <br /><br />And about the medallion as a mini-stedding (sartificial), Winter's Heart, p462: &quot;No weave made outside can affect what is inside...&quot;  So that can explain how Mat's medallion works.  As for it harming a gholam, well, we haven't seen anybody try to channel AT a stedding, now have we? So who knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 22:50:09
subject: <b>Just a quick question</b>
body:
Just a quick question...<br /><br />What are the Nym?  I've never heard of them.  Are they another name for the Green Men?


created: 2002-10-28 23:35:27
subject: <b>Nym</b>
body:
Yes, they are the race that the Green Man belonged to before his unfortunate death.  Read The Shadow Rising, chapter 26 The Dedicated.  The Green Man's name was Someshta. Page 430 paperback, Aes Sedai have a task for Someshta, the last of the Nym.  They also have the Dragon banner there, and we know where that was found.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 10:00:15
subject: <b>Gholam can alter their shape</b>
body:
They squeeze through small openings and move almost like a fluid. And, as far as I know, this is something cuendillar cannot do. Nor can people. So, I find it hihgly unlikey that Gholam can be a combination of the two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 13:14:08
subject: <b>Gholam and Golem</b>
body:
I just thought of it while reading this theory, has anyone noticed the similarity in the indestructability of the Gholam and the Golem.  Golems(D&amp;D, and Slayers not lord of the rings) are pretty hard to hurt.  any thoughts on that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;so exactly what sound does a goat make when you throw it out a window?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 20:05:45
subject: <b>Think.....</b>
body:
In somebook, I don't remember which one, when Aviendha unravels the gateway, we get POV of the gholam after Moridin was watching the Aiel woman, and the gholam obiously has thoughts about the OP and TP and how he does not want to server to his master anymore. This has to mean that he originally was made from a living thing....a person maybe? Plus we are told that there were Male and Female gholams (or was it only their appearance?) made. If that is tru how can OP be male or female? It has to be both saidar and saidin. Or does birgette refer to the gholam that was made of saidin as male and saider female? Or what that matter how can cuendillar be male or female? I wanted to say something else but I forgot and this is getting long anyway so lets hear all your thoughts...


created: 2002-10-29 22:06:31
subject: <b>Male and Female with other random babblings</b>
body:
The gholam were made to look like male and female.  They weren&#8217;t actually male or female.  I don&#8217;t think they have internal organs so what would distinguish between the two other then looks.  They were constructed to look human so that they wouldn&#8217;t be noticed (I cant remember where it said that but I am pretty sure it was said).  The gholam were constructs like the Nym (since the Nym were made by the &quot;good guys&quot; I don&#8217;t see them being made from humans so I doubt that humans were needed to make the gholam) I always thought that it was merely the silver.  Honestly you are a channeler and something that is completely immune to you what are you gonna do?  I doubt you would throw your pocket change at it.  It is very possible that the gholams would never have encountered silver cause silver aint good for weapons so soldiers wouldn&#8217;t wield it against them and no one is gonna think to try that against such an inhuman killing machine.<br /><br />Jonboy the redturtleneck


created: 2002-10-30 09:33:24
subject: <b>Has anyone heard of composite materials?</b>
body:
Just because cuendillar is hard doesn't mean that the Gholam cannot have cuendillar in them. In engineering it's called particulate strengthening. What I'm saying is that the Gholam are not made_up_of heartstone, but rather they have it distributed in their flesh. <br /><br />Another point is that, although rock is a hard material, it can still flow in particle form. An egg timer would be the best example of this. Similarly, the Gholam would still be able to flow through small places if they had heartstone within them in particulate form. <br /><br />You could extend this to nearly all the Gholam's attributes. Strength, bloodlessness, cold skin and, most importantly, immunity to the One Power.<br /><br />Anyway, Heartstone could be used in many different forms, not just the form of the seals. I propose that Gholam have HeartSAND within their bodies. I'm sure there could be plenty of other applications if I could be bothered to think of them.<br /><br />On the idea of channeling at Heartstone making it stronger, well, I remember the quote, but what does that mean? How can you get any stronger than totally impervious? Here's something to chew on for a bit. It could be theorised that Heartstone starts off in a soft stage and then gets harder if you channel into it. This would explain how it would be possible to mould it into intricate shapes like those seen in the Tanchico palace. A bit like thermosetting plastics, in a way. <br /><br />Again, this opens up way more possibilities. There could be some kind of agent inside the Gholam to keep it soft or it could be some kind of softer compound, similar but not exactly like Heartstone. Even wondered why Heartstone is so smooth? Plastic flow would account for it... Of course the Gholam is not made up exclusively of cuendillar, he could just have the soft compounds within him.<br /><br />I do study engineering BTW, in case any of you are wondering why I'm going into this in a lot of depth. With a little knowledge of material science and forming processes, it becomes not only possible that Gholam are made up of something very similar to Cuendillar compisite, but possible in a number of different ways.<br /><br />How DO they make Heartstone, anyway? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 14:43:15
subject: <b>Composite materials</b>
body:
Gholam being made as a composite material which includes cuendillar does work for me, either, because the aggregates, or bonding agents used to form the composite material would not be immune to the effects of the one power. What you're suggesting is not unlike concrete, which is merely gravel and sand which are held together by a bonding agent, such as cement. Only in this case, the bodig agent would by pliable, and not hard like cement, allowing the gholam to flow in &quot;fluid like&quot; motions. So, when the one power is used on the gholam, the bonding agent would be distroyed, and not the cuendillar, and it would be reduced to a pile of infiniately small grains of heartstone.<br /><br />Unless your suggesting a molecular bonding which combines the materials on a subatomic level. Which would effect the properties of hearstone itself, prossibly rendering it succeptible to the one power.<br /><br />IMO, the gohlam are just bad guys RJ made up who happen to be extremely alergic to silver, and that's how Mat will defeat them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 17:46:39
subject: <b>Well.... not concrete..</b>
body:
Like you say, the bonding agent would be flexible. Anyway, I get the idea. The rubber-like material would simply be destroyed, leaving the cuendillar particles behind. I must admit that I hadn't thought of that... Damn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I'll try my best to rally.<br /><br />The One Power does not have to behave in that way at all. Mat's medallion can act over a given radius, as do the Guardian and the stedding. Whether the cuendillar could do the same is mere speculation though. If it does, it would mean that the whole body is protected, not just the particles.<br /><br />We also know that cuendillar can absorb the One Power through the 'channeling only makes it stonger' idea. It may be possible that the particles can absorb away the weaves leaving the binder material unharmed. Possibly related is the idea that Mat's medallion gets cool when the One Power is used. I dunno, it's just an idea I thought I'd throw in... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, that does not exlude the other possibility that the Gholam could be made up of a viscous form of cuendillar. That's more akin to alloying or solution strengthening, though. It would be a bit better than particulate strengthening though... <br /><br />Yet a further idea is that, since the Gholam is a living thing, the cuendillar is bound up in it's cellular structure. Aginor no doubt created some complex genetic engineering to get the effect he desired. I wonder how many prototypes he would have gone through to get the final Gholam. <br /><br />Anyway, we've already seen strange things like this. The Nym are no less fantastic. They are specifically mentioned in the Guide as hybrids and One Power constructs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 12:31:24
subject: <b>a few things</b>
body:
Mat's medallion is not similar to Far Madding's ter'angreal it only protects him as long as it's touching his skin.<br /><br />Assuming that heartstone is made in a similar way as ter'angreal it's not likely that Aginor could have done it, because if he could make ter'angreal why hasn't he?<br /><br />As far as we know nothing can hurt heartstone, except the DO apparently.  Remember that any force acting against heartstone makes it stronger not just channeling, which makes it unlikely that the absence of any force would make it weaker, which is basically what you're saying if I understand it right.<br /><br />Also to whoever it was that asked why the Forsaken haven't made Trollocs that are protected in a similar way; it's for the same reason that there were only 6 gholam, the Forsaken would fear them too much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-01 10:21:59
subject: <b>Difference between Gholam and Cuendillar...</b>
body:
What I should have made clearer in my first response to the theory is that weaves directed at Cuendillar have an effect.  Those that are directed at the gholam simply disappear or dissolve.  The properties of Cuendillar and the gholam are very different.  That is my main argument against gholam being made of or having Cuendillar in their systems.


created: 2002-11-01 15:46:56
subject: <b>cant be true.</b>
body:
hmm.. cant be true.<br /><br />you say that your not suggesting anything about the seals on the DO's prison. but they are made out of Cuendillar to arent they? So they sould have the same rules as the rest unless you think there are diffrent types of Cuendillar.<br /><br />and if ceundillar could be destroyed by steddings dont you think someone should have noticed that?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="teal">Vantan hr&#237;veress&#235; helka</font><br /><br /><font color="white">spacespacespace...</font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-02 06:21:58
subject: <b>I could be wrong</b>
body:
um...  maybe you forgot. i can't remember where but it was in the white tower. but it spoke about how simliar ter angreal react to each other. this was the case with the dream ring(stone one) and the 3 archs. they got hot and were uncontrolable and nearly melted. i think this is the same sort of situation as with the gholam. it got its face burned by iut anjd matt comments on how it sizzled. think it just a coincidence???


created: 2002-11-02 16:59:05
subject: <b>How the dark one destroys the seals...</b>
body:
If your theory is true and heartstone against heartstone = damage to heartstone, this could be the way DO destroys the seals. I.e. when he finds them he sends a gholam (or several) to break it.... perhaps.....or did i miss anything in the books? <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-08 13:22:57
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
Gholams can detect channeling, male and female in some way or another, and someone mentioned the true source, the gholam saw moeidin using thr TR and didnt know what it was, it was different from the two and the , smell i think it was, burned the Gholams nostrils, maybe the medallion is made of the TR, not many poeple can use it, the DO, moridin and the creator, and whoever that guy was that was in SL and balefired mashadder


created: 2002-11-15 13:34:23
subject: <b>Gholam can be hurt.</b>
body:
I think something that needs to be considered is that the gholam can be hurt. Since everything dircted at cuendillar only makes it stronger, then the knife should break or bounce off. Instead it goes into the gholam, the gholam pulls it out of course with no blood on the blade, but the blade does go in. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 18:22:41
subject: <b>Not heartstone</b>
body:
I could be wrong but don't weaves aimed at a gholam just disappear? We know that they are not cut as the wielder of the flow doesn't feel the force of them rebound. And Elayne tries to melt the male a'dam (which is heartstone) and she isn't shocked by the weaves disappearing, she just says they are absorbed like they would be into anything else, but that they have no effect. (I could be misremembering this bit though)<br /><br />Which all suggests that the gholam are neither shielded with an Auto Flow Cutter (TM) nor made of heartstone.<br /><br />To me it seems that you can <br />a) absorb flows, like cuendillar<br />b) cut flows, like Aes Sedai do while fighting with the power, causing them to 'rebound'<br />c) unravel flows, like Mat's medallion, Nynaeve's bracelet (or was it the necklace?), Avienda's unpicking the gateway, and the Gholam's defenses.<br />d) Block people from touching the source (but not from wielding the Power).<br />e) Whatever it is that Stedding do. This is a separate category as it is said that nothing woven outside affects what is inside. Possibly a combination of (c) and (d) but I can't remember if it is ever mentioned how the stedding were made.<br /><br />One problem with putting the gholam in (c) is that someone says that they didn't know about unravelling flows in the Age of Legends when the gholam were made. Possibly that was one of Aginor's trade secrets that was rediscovered later, after all he wouldn't want anyone else knowing how to counteract any use of the Power, it would undermine the forsaken's power. And in response to Jim's question, maybe Aginor has made himself a protection ter'angreal, after all we don't know that he hasn't (I'm assuming he didn't have time between being initially freed and going to the Eye of the World, I got the impression they were very recently freed).<br /><br />Is a gholam technically a ter'angreal then? Just different enough (by being able to walk and talk etc) to cause the resonance effect when touched with the foxhead medallion? <br /><br />By analogy with what happened during Egwene's Accepted testing, it would seem that the medallion won't itself be damaged in the same way the twisted ring ter'angreal wasn't: in physics terms, the rings (and the gholam) have a sort of resonance frequency, and the twisted ring some how 'drove' the larger ter'angreal at that frequency causing it to nearly be destroyed while leaving the 'driver' unharmed.<br /><br />Another example I suppose of RJ taking a real-world effect and applying it to the WoT world. At which point we emphatically don't mention a certain James Cameron film <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The other possibility is that rather than being based on (c) the gholam were reverse-engineered from (e), the stedding. This assumes that the stedding were a natural phenomenon in the AoL, which is fairly reasonable as the Ogier themselves are. Which gets on to how Ogier can sense stedding and waygates. Ogier can't become wolfbrothers, but some can sense ta'veren (which is a Talent of the Power) so can they (in theory at least) channel or is the stedding's protection something not directly derived from the One Power, which means my arguments are going round in circles arg this needs its own theory I'm going to bed...<br /><br />Feel free to poke holes in this, I'm just writing stuff down as it occurs to me!<br /><br />tomsci


created: 2003-02-05 10:54:06
subject: <b>It cannot be a ter'angreal</b>
body:
It cannot be a ter'angreal base upon the fact that Mat's fox head medalion only stops saidar not saidin.  Rahvin killed Mat, Aviendha, and Egwene while Rand was attacking him.  Rand did remark that Mat's fox head medalion did not seem to help him against saidin.  The gholam stops both one power and therefore cannot be similar to Mat's medalion.


created: 2003-02-18 09:36:22
subject: <b>Mat's medallion</b>
body:
Can stop Saidin as well as saidar Rhavin killed him by calling lightning not by channeling directly at Mat.<br />Halima Who Is able to channel Saidin channeled at Mat in Salidar and was shocked when the weaves broke apart around him.<br /><br />On another point The Medallion And Ashendrei (spelling) are Aes Sedai work from the Age of legends and were carried to Rhuidean by the Aeil when Mat and Rand enter the square in Rhuidean amongst the other terangreal it is mentioned that the Ashendrei and medallion are stood upright in the square. So they weren't made by the Finns just given to Mat by the Finns


created: 2006-02-20 18:43:19
subject: <b>No its not heartstone</b>
body:
It couldnt be heartstone because heartstone can't be broken, chipped, or stabbed. But one of Mat's knives went through it so it can't be heartstone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-25 02:55:57
subject: <b>worth thinking about</b>
body:
I don't agree that the gholam would have small particles of cuendillar inside him. There is no evidence being placed in a stedding can harm cuendillar. The part about the medallion creating a mini-stedding does bear thinking about though. <br />The gholam is obviously created with The Power, and part of it is letting the gholam take on human shape, or any other shape. What if the mini-stedding the medallion creates disrupts the Power in the gholam that allows it to take shape?<br />The other possibility is that because they have the same effect of unravelling weaves of the Power directed at them(dubious and undocumented on the gholam's part), it causes some type of interference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 11:26:08
subject: <b>Just a Thought</b>
body:
Now I'm just posting from what I read there, but isn't it possible that Slowing could almost be seen as a blessing. For example, a sul'dam could be seen as slowing BECAUSE she has served the Empress, and the explanation that the Empress has slowed (if she has) is that she has been blessed by the Light, kind of a sign of approval from the Creator. That would fit right in with how kings used to think in our world.<br /><br />Of course, this is all speculation. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 13:33:50
subject: <b>The Seanchan Sundering</b>
body:
That's a very insightful theory about the Seanchan! You could add to your theory the part about entire pages spent on Egeanin's thoughts on the sul'dam revelation when looking at the collared Bethamin. In it, she imagined the Empire being ripped apart by this revelation.<br />In addition, the continent of Seanchan is a seemingly inexhaustible source of settlers, troops and sul'dam/damane, yet repeatedly, we are reminded that rebellions still occur in Seanchan (remember The Far Snows and Assid Bakuun's memory of suppressing the revolt in Marendalar?). Should this revelation come and the channelers are stamped out as you theorize, what can hold the Empire together? That continent may go back to being a shifting quilt of warring nations with the Empress holding Seandar and surrounding areas, and the flow of Corenne to the Westlands may sputter out, saving the rest of the Westlands from Seanchan conquest.<br />Maybe then, once the Corenne is cut off from Seanchan, Tuon can be Empress of the Seanchan in the Westlands with Mat's, Rand's, and the Egwenean White Tower's support. That would be a replay of Luthair's Consolidation being cut off from Hawkwing's empire a millennium before by the War of the Hundred Years. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 13:37:32
subject: <b>Pisoner &amp; Warden</b>
body:
One problem with the slowing being a blessing we know the the damane slow and that they are consider dangerous aminals.  I so not think that it would be consider a blessing to slow. For why would the Prisoner be getting the same medal that the warden got for guarding her I dont think so.  most likely every one just turns a blind eye for see no evil and it is not there


created: 2002-10-30 14:50:17
subject:
<b>I have to be negative again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<b>...Sul&#8217;dam can learn to channel, this has been made abundantly clear. ...  We know that damane Slow and have much longer life spans...</b><br /><br />Both of these are true. <br /><br /><b>Slowing is an effect of the Power.</b><br /><br />Definitely true.<br /><br /><b>...The glossary of CoS states &#8220;Sorilea: The Wise One of&#8230;. Barely able to channel, she is also the oldest living Wise One&#8230;&#8221; This shows that no matter how weak someone is, they will Slow and have a longer life span.</b><br /><br />So far I have no problems, although the rest of the quote says something to the effect Sorilea isn't that much older as she thinks.  This is quite important and should have been included.  <br /><br /><b>Considering how weak Sorilea is, we can addition conclude that the amount of Power used cannot be a factor in how long someone lives or how much they Slow...</b><br /><br />Here is where I disagree.  Most of the evidence suggests that the amount of slowing <b>does</b> depend on strength.  The problem is that wise ones that slow more don't live long enough to dies of old age.  The classic example is a WO, named Mora I think, who is said to live over 300 years and still appeared to be young when she died of a snake bite.  Sorilea may be that old but she doesn't look young.  Another important piece of evidence is that Elayne believes (CoS I think)  that the amount of slowing depends on strength in the power.  Just because a character believes something doesn't make it true.  On the other hand Elayne is in a position to know, at least for AS who are bound with the Oath Rod.<br /><br /><br /><b>Another possible reason sul&#8217;dam would not Slow is that they might never Embrace the Source, never channel the Power. However, evidence from LoC shows that this is very unlikely...</b><br /><br />You are completely wrong about this.  Aviendha sees suldam in FoH and notes that they seem like people who can channel but have never used it.  Second Nynaeve thinks a number of times when controlling Moggy that the flows are coming from Moggy.  Nynaeve controlls the flow while she is not embrasing the source.  She does get some of the pleasure and maybe vision enhansing effects of the link but no flows actually go through her.<br /><br /><b>&#8220;Snapping her mouth shut, Nynaeve tried to put herself on that brink where you embraced saidar...Saidar swept through Nynaeve to Anaiya, and when she attempted to pull back - it was her, she realized, not the flow itself - her flow was held, melting into a larger.&#8221; (LoC, &quot;Dreams and Nightmares,&quot; pg 352, paperback).<br /><br /><br />Since the a&#8217;dam is just an involuntary link and the Power flows through everyone involved, the sul&#8217;dam must have the Power flow through them, they must channel.</b><br /><br />Again your evidence is proof <b>against</b> your theory.  Anaiya controlls the flow but the flow doesn't flow through her.  Nynaeve's flow joined with the others AFTER it flowed through her.   <br /><br /><b>Since the sul&#8217;dam Slow and live long, why haven&#8217;t the Seanchan figured out that sul&#8217;dam are as much marath&#8217;damane as the despised Leashed Ones...</b><br /><br />There is no evidence for or against Suldam slowing.  Give me solid evidence and I will believe.  <br /><br /><br /><b>In WH, during a conversation between Bethamin and the Seeker, the phrase (this is not exact) &#8220;may we live long in the service of the Empress&#8221; is used. ... Another possible clue is that every time the Empress is mentioned, &#8220;may she live forever&#8221; is attached to her name.</b><br /><br />These saying mean absolutely nothing.  They are used today for kings and queens that live just as long as anyone else.  The only evidence that I can think of is the fact that the Seanchen haven't had a king in hundreds of years (WH-What a veil hides? Tuon PoV).  Yet, men seem to compete for the emperor position just as much as the women.  What is the chance that <b>all</b> the emperor from that time were women if each reigned for only 30 or so years?    <br /><br /> <br /><b>...When the news that sul&#8217;dam can channel is revealed to all of Seanchan society, there will be an enormous backlash against sul&#8217;dam. ... Riots, sul&#8217;dam murders, damane murders are likely to result after the revelation. Why would Tuon be spared? </b><br /><br />The revelation of the fact the Suldam can learn to channel has not been played out.  It is impossible to predict how it will occur or what will happen because of it.<br /><br /><b>It is interesting that as the revelation comes closer, Mat and Tuon are escaping from Seanchan controlled territory. This makes it more likely that Tuon will be the Seanchan woman with Egwene, this is a Dream Egwene had that is copied from wotmania&#8217;s faq:<br /><br />&#8220;Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.&#8221;<br />-The Dragon Reborn, Following the Craft</b><br /><br />Egwene has had several dreams about the Seanchen the she has dismissed as nightmares.  I don't think they are.  One was with Mat and the Seanchen which we have no other information about.  The other two might still happen and put an interesting twist on the story.  The first is of lines of AS being made damane and attacking the WT.  The second is of a hard faced Seanchen handing her an a'dam.  Both of these dreams together paint a picture of Egwene using a'dam controlled AS to attack the white tower.  This is a wacky theory I know, but it fits the evidence and the path that Egwene is taking.  <br /><br /><b>...&#8220;A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. &#8220;<br />-A Crown Of Swords, Unseen Eyes<br /><br />There is a strong possibility that the golden hawk is Tuon, since the sign of the imperial family is the golden hawk... </b><br /><br />Personally I think the golden Hawk is Elaida (from her boxes).  The golden Hawk may be a symbol of the empress but it has no relation to Tuon, currently.<br /><br /><br /><b>I think that Egwene and Tuon will be tied together because Tuon will bring the sul&#8217;dam and the damane to the White Tower. Consider the following, Egwene wants every woman who can channel tied to the Tower. After the backlash against sul&#8217;dam in Seanchan society, the sul&#8217;dam will be desperate, not wanting to live like damane and temporarily unable to be a part of Seanchan society. With their options limited, I think that the sul&#8217;dam and the damane will run and end up finding/joining Tuon and Mat. The group will then head towards the Tower. This has already started with the 3 sul&#8217;dam escaping with Egeanin. The treatment of damane is horrific, as the books have mentioned many times, and I don&#8217;t think that the Seanchan will be able to join the &#8220;good guys&#8221; while they are doing something that is portrayed as horrible and evil. Admittedly, there is not tons of strong evidence suggesting that Tuon will lead the sul&#8217;dam and damane to the White Tower. But all the dots are there, waiting to be connected. This scenario solves the problem of the damane while also temporarily disabling the Seanchan war machine. The natural question now is how the Seanchan will be joined to Rand. Perhaps Tylin will hold the Seanchan together and deliver them to Mat, who will then deliver them to Rand. Perhaps Berelain being a descendant of Hawkwing will be the path from the Seanchan to Rand. Either way, Tuon leading the Seanchan sul&#8217;dam and damane to the White Tower works very well at solving moral problems and fulfilling prophecies.</b><br /><br />Too much speculation, not enough evidence.<br /><br /><b>Overall, the sul&#8217;dam, their place in Seanchan society, and their future role in the books are interesting enigmas. I hope these observations/predications the Seanchan prove interesting and accurate.</b><br /><br />I trust RJ enough to think that almost any solution he comes up with will be interesting.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 15:35:09
subject: <b>extra sul'dam channeling proof</b>
body:
Although during the link, the flow may come from the damane side, the Power still touches the sul'dam side for some period of time.  <br /><br />Additional evidence comes from when a student is first learning.  When Taim is testing Flinn in LoC, and when Egwene is getting her first lesson in EotW from Moiraine, they were both presented with a steady weave and eventually mimiced it weakly for a brief time.  There is no direct evidence, but it should be safe to assume that sul'dam will do something similar when linked to damane.  <br /><br />More so, remember that a'dam do not work at first on sul'dam, its only after years and years that the a'dam does work on the sul'dam.  The difference is that now the sul'dam HAVE been channeling, they have embraced the source.  Other wise, the a'dam should still not work on them.


created: 2002-10-30 17:08:53
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
uncertainty, your comments don't make sense.  How is the method of someone learning how to channel evidence that a sul'dam channels enough to prevent aging?  And where does it say that an a'dam will only hold a sul'dam after years of training damane?  It doesn't.<br /><br />I agree with rabidwombat.  The largest hole in this theory is the claim that the amount &amp; frequency of the one power channeled has no affect on a channeler's longevity.  The story of the Wise One Mora refutes this.  It is noted that she was a strong channeler and looked young when she died at 300 from a snakebite.  It's not tough to infer that she looked younger than Sorilea, and also reasonable to infer that she was older, since there is a line soon after that mentions that VERY few people live to be that old in the Waste.<br /><br />If all channelers age at the same rate, Sorilea would have to be about 1,000 years old based on her description.  This would surely be remarked upon at some point.  I mean, Alivia is over 400 &amp; only looks middle-aged.  Her strength in the One Power is the reason why.<br /><br />I don't recall ever reading that a sul'dam gets any of the &quot;side-effects&quot; of using saidar.  i.e., the visual acuity or a sense of bliss.  She merely controls the flows.  It stands to reason that longevity is just another one of those side-effects to channeling.  So the less you channel, the closer your lifespan will be to a normal person.  A sul'dam, who has never embraced Saidar &amp; channeled it through her own person would have the same lifespan as any other person.<br /><br />All other evidence presented regarding the &quot;May She live Forever&quot; phrase is circumstantial at best - except for the golden hawk/Tuon connection, I've thought that for a while.


created: 2002-10-30 17:21:10
subject: <b>Suldam do get some of the side effects of chanelling.</b>
body:
Suldam do get some of the side effects of chanelling.  They get the One Power addiction side effect.  Nynaeve has a PoV where she is forcing Moggy to do a weave.  Nynaeve is not touching the source at the time only using it through Moggy.  If I remember correctly she describes it as almost as feeling almost as good as chanelling herself.  Further, Suldam talk about becoming complete with the damane with almost the same type of One Power addiction that people who channel directly experience.<br /><br />I also think there is some evidence that the controller of a normal link gets a heightened sense of awarement comparable to channelling the amount of Saidar/in.  I am not quite sure whether that happens with the a'dam link, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 17:22:15
subject: <b>Thumbs up!</b>
body:
Brilliant theory - very rare on the site at the moment, this one is well thought out and logical without completely reaching out on a limb. I'd have to agree with the lot. Even if slowing is based on strength in the one power, does this affect the theory? I think not - we can assume that at least some of the Sul-dam are stronger than Sorelia, so at least some of them will have significantly longer life-spans. Congrats!


created: 2002-10-30 17:51:01
subject: <b>response to Daemione</b>
body:
-[How is the method of someone learning how to channel evidence that a sul'dam channels enough to prevent aging?] <br /><br /><br />The training example is to just another little likely example of the sul'dam using the Power.  And I do agree that strength in the Power makes a difference, but that cannot be the only factor because of Sorilea.  I am not arguing that the sul'dam should look young, just they should be much older that normal people.  And assuming they channel as little Power as Sorilea, that channeling should increase their lives significantly.  My theory is in part to point out that even though it has never been stated, the sul'dam DO experience Slowing and longer life spans.  <br /><br /><br />-[And where does it say that an a'dam will only hold a sul'dam after years of training damane? It doesn't.]<br /><br /><br />You are right, it doesnt directly state that, it is fairly obvious. Consider this:<br />The a'dam works on women with the spark inborn, damane.  Women who can learn to channel are able to use the a'dam, but the a'dam does not work on them.  What is the difference?  The future damane have touched/channeled the Power and the a'dam works on them.  The future sul'dam have not touched/channeled the Power and the a'dam does NOT work on them.  BUT years later, after working with sul'dam and damame, the a'dam DOES work on the sul'dam.  Again, what is difference between now and then?  The only possible reason the a'dam would work on the sul'dam NOW and NOT when they were first tested is that the sul'dam have been channeling the Power.  Nothing else makes sense.  And remember that every single year for the adolescent years of their lives, Seanchan women are tested for the ability to be damane AND the ability to control damane.  Thus sul'dam MUST be channeling the Power or the a'dam would still not work on them.  I cannot fathom another reason why the a'dam would just suddenly work on them now.  I wish I had included that in the theory.<br /><br /><br />-[The largest hole in this theory is the claim that the amount &amp; frequency of the one power channeled has no affect on a channeler's longevity. The story of the Wise One Mora refutes this. It is noted that she was a strong channeler and looked young when she died at 300 from a snakebite. It's not tough to infer that she looked younger than Sorilea, and also reasonable to infer that she was older, since there is a line soon after that mentions that VERY few people live to be that old in the Waste.<br />If all channelers age at the same rate, Sorilea would have to be about 1,000 years old based on her description. This would surely be remarked upon at some point. I mean, Alivia is over 400 &amp; only looks middle-aged. Her strength in the One Power is the reason why.]<br /><br /><br />I never stated that Slowing should make the sul&#8217;dam look young, I only stated that they should be very old.  I did state that strength was not an indicator, that WAS wrong.  Strength must be an indicator because of Mora, but it cannot be the ONLY indicator because of Sorilea.  Thank you for pointing that out.<br /><br /><br />-[I don't recall ever reading that a sul'dam gets any of the &quot;side-effects&quot; of using saidar. i.e., the visual acuity or a sense of bliss.]<br /><br /><br />Re-read all the parts about sul&#8217;dam.  Sul&#8217;dam call linking with a damane &#8220;being complete&#8221; and they LOVE it.  Sul&#8217;dam either definitely get something through the a&#8217;dam or they ARE channeling during the link.  Either way, it doesn&#8217;t make a difference.  Because of the a&#8217;dam working now and not before, the sul&#8217;dam MUST be channeling sometime.  Thus they Slow to some extent and have longer life spans.<br />


created: 2002-10-30 18:47:57
subject: <b>The Empress</b>
body:
I would go further.  I always suspected that the Empress knows she can channel.  <br /><br />I have thought that since I learned of the Crystal Throne is a TA and most require a channeler, and that most monarchs to sit upon it were female.  <br /><br />By my opinion is based on no fact and only speculation.


created: 2002-10-30 19:24:43
subject: <b>Crystal Channeling</b>
body:
Riothamus, think back to when Tuon was still on the ship to Ebou Dar. As Anath was berating her, Tuon remembered how a soe'feia slapped Emperor Algwyn in public and that Algwyn was the last man to sit on the Crystal Throne. He ruled about a thousand years before. I personally think Algwyn was either the son or grandson of Luthair, since Luthair came to Seanchan over a thousand years ago. This may be something to do with your theory that the Empress may be able to channel or at least may be 'sul'dam-able.' Another circumstantial evidence could be the way the Empress said nothing about Tuon requesting the sul'dam testing.<br />We shall see in the upcoming books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 20:37:08
subject: <b>Luthair's son</b>
body:
I'm completely unfamiliar with this passage (having forgotten it), but it raises an interesting point:<br /><br />That means somewhere along the lines, the line of Artur Hawkwing had channelers. <br /><br />Hmm...think anyone's gonna tell him this the next time someone blows the Horn?


created: 2002-10-30 22:16:03
subject: <b>re: a'dam and sul'dam</b>
body:
This is in reference to Daemione's comments...<br /><br />In WH, it is stated that sul'dam are tested every year to see if they are truly marath'damane until age 25. This implies that very few sul'dam have unconsciously developed sufficient affinity with channelling by age 25 to be picked up with an a'dam. <br /><br />Side comment re: slowing... Anyone else think maybe Morgase has slowed a bit? All the discussions of her beauty etc. suggests the possibility of youthfulness related to her weak channeling ability. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 03:41:35
subject: <b>Morgase</b>
body:
I think you're right about the reason she still looks so good.  It might well be evidence that even people who can channel only the tiniest bit of OP slow. <br />Good catch!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An empty desk is a sign of an empty mind</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 05:49:23
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Nicely written and an interesting read. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Reading the comments here I am now starting to believe that theory about the Seanchan Empress being able to channel. What a secret that would be. Every so often the Seanchan Imperial family would throw out a channeler. If the Crystal Throne is a terangreal that requires channeling, that would imply that the Empress or Emperor would have to run it with a channeler. This would mean that not every ruler would have ben able to use it... unless they used a damane. I am beginning to believe that the Empress already knows the secret behind the damane, but has been withholding it to preserve the Empire, and her own head.<br /><br />It's all just speculation, but I'm hoping that it's true. We should find out a lot more in CoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 10:18:25
subject: <b>testing . . . .</b>
body:
Ah, but is testing for marath'damane done by slapping an a'dam on them &amp; seeing what happens, or merely by coming within the presence of a sul'dam/damane to be sensed?  I've always believed it was the latter.  It's pretty well documented that Aes Sedai can sense the spark in anyone once they're within a feet of them, but they can't sense the ability to learn (see Elayne &amp; Nynaeve talking to Egeanin in Tanchico).  So marath'damane would be found pretty easily without the use of a spare a'dam, and testing for sul'dam ability would be done by putting them on the controlling end of a damane.<br /><br />As for sul'dam feeling &quot;complete&quot;, they feel complete whether or not the damane is actually channeling.  I submit that this is a psychological phenomenon, and not One Power related.  They're &quot;complete&quot; when they're doing what they're trained to do and fulfilling the role society has put them in.<br /><br />And could we find the exact quote of Nynaeve's POV? - the &quot;almost as good as channeling herself&quot; comment.  I remember this happening, but always assumed that the satisfaction lay in controlling the flows &amp; having the saidar available for her use, not the sense of bliss from being filled with the One Power.


created: 2002-10-31 13:04:50
subject:
<b>Good theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Good theory and I belive that you are right on at least the first few points.  IMHO, Channeling is genetic and is tied to the genes for aging (Please look at my theory Proof of Genetic Channeling). With that in mind all a Sul'dam and damame would share a large amout of the channelling genome. I love to quote myself because I am just that kinda Jackass.  Good Theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 13:06:02
subject: <b>sul'dam don't channel ever</b>
body:
If they ever did the damane around them would see the glow and know that they can channel.  Since they don't channel they don't slow, just like Sharina, the old woman that shows up on one of the SAS recruiting trips, and also appears in Nynaeve's Accepted testing.  Also further evidence that sul'dam don't contribute to the link can be found in tFoH, The Threads Burn, &quot;We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are.&quot;  It's unlikely that the Crystal Throne requires anyone channeling, we've seen several such ter'angreals, the dream ring, Mat's medallion, the Far Madding ter'angreal and others.  Therefore it is hardly logical to assume whether the throne does or does not require channeling, however I think it is more likely to be the case since it is the easier explanation.  As fro the woman who is Seanchan with Egwene, it doesn't have to be Tuon, it could be Alivia or Egeanin or some other Seanchan we haven't met yet.  If it is Tuon she will likely go wherever Mat goes and he may decide to see Egwene in a short time, also explaining the possible connection between Tuon and Egwene assuming you're right about the golden hawk dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 15:58:00
subject: <b>WOW!</b>
body:
At first i was wasn't sure if anyone could come up with something new, but I was mesmorized! One might think you had inside info on the subject <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Anyway, I think you are right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-01 11:26:56
subject: <b>Honorific Explained</b>
body:
We know the unoriginal origin of the honorific, &quot;May the empress live forever.&quot;  We also know that the Seanchan society is centered around a cult of the empress, much like the Roman Empire was-the Emperor is near-divine.  Service to the Empire in both situations is considered paramount.  Would not the ultimate honor for a Seanchan being able to serve the Empress forever?  (In theory only.)<br />Woody


created: 2002-11-01 19:52:33
subject: <b>The Sul'dam DO NOT channel</b>
body:
Not only do the <i>sul'dam</i> not channel the Power through their own connection to <i>Saidar,</i> they do not channel the linked flows from their <i>damane</i> either.<br /><br />1. <i>Damane</i> would see the glow around them.<br /><br />2. Tuon, in WH, reflects on her six <i>damane:</i><br />&quot;...Charral, her hair as gray as her eyes, but still the most agile in her spinning...&quot;<br />This clearly indicates it is the <i>damane</i> doing the directing of flows.<br /><br />3. Consistently throughout the books, <i>sul'dam</i> are described as &quot;sensing&quot; what their <i>damane</i> are channeling - not &quot;controlling&quot; it.<br /><br />4. Even the &quot;Power Addiction&quot; evidence is AGAINST <i>sul'dam</i> channeling:<br /><br /><i>Damane</i> and <i>sul'dam</i> are linked. The <i>sul'dam</i> is in control of the link itself; the <i>damane</i> is in control of the weaving of flows. Channelers in a link can sense each other's emotions, and are tightly bound to each other for the duration of the link. Therefore when <i>damane</i> feel the joy of <i>Saidar,</i> their <i>sul'dam</i> can feel the <i>damane's</i> joy through the <i>a'dam</i>.<br /><br />This is consistent with the behavior we see in the books. <i>Sul'dam</i> are less strongly addicted to the feel of the Power. What happens if a <i>sul'dam</i> is kept from feeling it for a long time? Look at Renna and Seta. They are unhappy, lazy, lethargic, and clearly depressed. But notice that they have NOT lost the will to live, even though they know they will never be &quot;complete&quot; again. If <i>sul'dam</i> were the ones doing the channeling, Renna and Seta would display the same effects as a victim of stilling.<br /><br /><br />Therefore <i>sul'dam</i> do not channel the Power in any way, and do not slow.<br /><br />-Toivo


created: 2002-11-02 13:08:20
subject: <b>Concerning sul'dam channeling</b>
body:
You do not take into account the fact that the a'dam now does work on sul'dam.  It only works on women who do channel.  Thus the sul'dam MUST be channeling sometime, since the a'dam didnt work on them, and then it does.<br /><br />There are several possible reasons for why the damane would not see the glow around a sul'dam.  And even if the damane DID see a glow around the sul'dam, the punishment for telling anyone would be terrible.  I highly doubt the sul'dam would believe the damane, and I highly doubt the damane has the courage to even try to tell anyone.<br /><br />Another consideration for you is about how long it takes for a sul'dam to begin channeling.  Nothing is suggesting the sul'dam link with damane and suddenly start channeling.  It takes years to learn how to channel effectively.  The sul'dam are just getting their training in mini doses when they are liked to the damane.  It could be over the course of decades that the sul'dam slowly build up how much they channel, or build up the ability to see a glow around a channeler.  Remember that Egwene and Nynaeve both channeled long before they ever saw the glow around someone.<br /><br />Blocks are another possible explanation to these problems.  Nynaeve taught herself to channel.  She was channeling for years.  However, she never saw a glow around anyother woman who can channel.  Even when in the two rivers, Nynaeve talks about sensing something in certain women.  &quot;Listening to the Wind&quot; I think it was called.  None of these Wisdoms or apprentices ever talked about seeing a glow around another women and some were clearly channeling.  They didnt even KNOW they were channeling.  But Nynaeve realized it quickly when the truth was pointed out.  Just like the sul'dam, though they deny it.  <br /><br />The sul'dam do not like or want the knowledge they can/do channel.  Nor do the damane want that knowlege, to escape punishment.  However the feeling through a'dam works (and it doesnt really make a difference), the sul'dam could easily have a block about knowing they channel.  Just like other wilders and Wisdom-types.  And we know the sul'dam must be channeling because the a'dam works on them now, and it didnt when they were first tested.<br /><br />PS.  It seems likely that Seanchan women are required to put on an a'dam when being tested for being marath'damane.  The Seanchan would consider this safer for everyone involved.  Plus they REALLY dont want to miss even a single woman, and trying the a'dam on would lower the risk of missing someone.  And trying the a'dam on wouldnt affect women who dont channel.  So I cant see a reason why the Seanchan would not require women to actually try on the a'dam.  Plus I'm pretty sure I read it in the big white book.


created: 2002-11-02 22:57:38
subject: <b>Slowing</b>
body:
I think slowing is caused by being able to channel, but NOT using it, look at the Wise ones in Ebou Dar. They can channel, but they dont because they might get caught, and they live the longest! Thinkaboudit!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-03 02:14:00
subject: <b>The Royal family thing...</b>
body:
I think that members of the royal family <i>are</i> tested to see if they can channel, from a comment of Tuon's. She mentions that a brother and sister of hers had been made <i>da'covale</i> and struck off the records &quot;as surely as if they had been able to channel&quot;, or words to that effect. (Bethamin tells us <i>damane</i> are struck off the rolls of citizens). This implies that members of the royal family are tested, and if they can channel, they are collared. This would only make sense as the whole POINT of the collaring is because in pre-Luthair Seanchan female channelers ruled, and Luthair wanted to stop that. An Empress who could channel would be the Empire's worst nightmare. I imagine any Empress would ensure her daughters were tested, to stop that - and of course they'd be caught if they were wilders. The <i>sul'dam</i> thing is different - they wouldn't be normally tested for <i>sul'dam&lt;i&gt; as they have other duties, like Tuon, only she insisted on it personally. So I find it very unlikely any member of the royal family would be a channeler or know they could learn to...until Tuon....especially as it mentions in the guide that the knowledge &lt;i&gt;sul'dam</i> could learn died out within 100 years. The Empress almost certainly does NOT know, although since her daughter can there is every possibility she can learn to channel. She probably won't though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-03 07:40:00
subject: <b>Aviendha</b>
body:
Having read all this, I am somewhat confused by what Aviendha saw. A women can't sense the ability in someone who learns to channel. So what did Aviendha sense? I assume it was because of the a'dam. In that case if the Suldam can sense marath'damane thay should be able to see what Aviendha saw in the sul'dam. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 00:47:16
subject: <b>not bad</b>
body:
I like the idea that the out of favour suldam will go to Egwene, but although Tuon would be a good candidate for this I can't see it fitting in to the story. I mean her and Mat have no intention of going to see Egwene and Tuon has lost all connection to the other Seanchan by leaving with Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 05:58:48
subject: <b><i>Sul'dam</i> don't channel, but can still be sensed</b>
body:
<i>A'dam</i> work on women who CAN channel, not just women who have channeled. The fact that the <i>a'dam</i> works on experienced <i>sul'dam</i> says nothing whatsoever about whether they do channel. It stands to reason.<br /><br />Also, Aviendha could sense the <i>sul'dam</i> because you can sense the ability in any woman who can channel, whether they learned or had the spark. Reanne said she could sense the ability in <i>sul'dam,</i> but in a strange way, as if the <i>sul'dam</i> had never used the ability.<br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-04 06:35:33
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
Toivo, what you say contradicts what Elayne said. Now either she or Reanne is wrong or use of the a'dam makes the ability apparent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 15:04:14
subject: <b>The slowing and women who don't channel (but can)</b>
body:
Women who do not channel, but can still experience the slowing.  Consider the women in the sewing circle...one of them was three hundred-odd years old (which made one of the Aes Sedai faint as I recall), and yet they do not channel whatsoever.<br /><br />Thusly, the leash holders will experience the slowing and live a damned long time.  Considering that the Empress probably has some very good bodyguards, I would think that she'll live a LONG time.<br /><br />As for ability to channel impacting one's lifespan, it's not yet been proven in either direction.  We have no evidence.<br /><br />With all of this aside, RJ made a mistake by adding the slowing AND the fact that channeling is a genetic recessive together.<br /><br />Here's why:<br /><br />Situation 1:<br /><br />Channeler A meets regular person B, and considers dating and marriage, and all the things that go with it.  S/he would more likely than not decide against marriage in that case, because the regular person would die in sixty or seventy years tops, whereas the channeler will live for another three or four hundred years, and watching your spouse grow old while you are still in the prime of life sucks tadpoles.<br /><br /><br />Situation 2:<br /><br />Channeler A meets Channeler B and considers dating and marriage, and all the things that go with it.  S/he will be more likely to consider the concept of marriage seriously because of the lack of baggage regarding lifespans.  Since they live longer than most (300+ years), their period of fertility is probably much longer as well.<br /><br />Following that pattern of logic, what you would see is a LOT more Aes Sedai than normal people in the long run, assuming that they didn't intentionally limit the breeding of Aes Sedai (doubtful).<br /><br />Anyway, that's that.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 16:39:58
subject: <b>Clarification...</b>
body:
Subjugator, the Kin do channel, they only channeled on the sly and only when and where they cannot be detected by Aes Sedai or 'witchhunters'.<br /><br />I remember something about one of the RJ interviews. Someone asked if an Ogier could be bonded like a Warder by a channeler. RJ's response was to the effect of: &quot;No Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean has ever been bonded.&quot; Now, if an Ogier gets the Longing if he's outside of the stedding too long, what about the Ogier Gardeners in the Deathwatch Guard? Are they bonded to the Empress? If the Empress has the ability to learn how to channel (as opposed to the taboo-ed spark of marath'damane), she could be Bonded to the Gardeners, thereby drawing upon their formidable strength and vice versa, preventing the Longing. This could be supported by Seanchan POVs in which the Deathwatch Guard sported the black ravens tattoo of imperial da'covale and the Gardeners didn't have that &quot;but that is between them and the Empress&quot;.<br />I read somewhere in the series (don't remember exactly where) that the Deathwatch Guards swear oaths to the Empress while touching the Crystal Throne itself. Could the Throne have properties of the Oath Rod as well as Compulsion?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 17:29:59
subject: <b>Tuon: a future Seanchan rebel</b>
body:
I gotta say, I disagree that the Sul'dam Slow significantly.  That sort of thing would be noticed and persecuted in their society, which is so paranoid about channelers.<br /><br />BUT I love your idea that Tuon and Egwene will be tied together later.  Until now, I had assumed that the golden hawk was Berelain, but I couldn't figure how she would be tied to Egwene.<br /><br />Egwene hates the Seanchan and their slavery, so it would be very interesting to see how she and Tuon react to each other.<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-04 20:32:04
subject: <b>Slowing depends on Strength</b>
body:
Rabid Wombat alluded to this incident but I don't recall if anyone else did.  When Elayne first explained Slowing, she told Nynaeve, &quot;How much depends on how strong we are, but not when.&quot;  In other words, Morgase, who is very weak, merely looks very young for her age, but not so that people think she has an unnatural lifespan (she was 16 when Queen Modrellin died, soon after Tigraine went to the Waste, &quot;four years before the hunt for Laman&quot; and the War lasted 3 years, and Rand was born on the last day of the war- 19 in EotW, plus 7 years between Tigraine's disappearance and his birth, plus Morgase's age at the time makes her 42!  In a medieval world, and she is still drop dead gorgeous, and doesn't look old enough 2 years later, to have an 18 year old daughter, according to Pedron Niall.  Plus Dyellin was a &quot;child&quot; when Tigraine left, meaning younger than Morgase's 16, despite having grey in her hair now.)  By contrast Nynaeve looks no older than 20, and as she is still gaining her strength, will probably remain that young-looking for a long time. Aliva, with her phenomenal power is never described as old-looking despite threads of white in her hair and fine lines at her eyes.  She's almost as old as Reann Corly, but seems far younger from the descriptions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 21:51:07
subject: <b>Aging and History</b>
body:
Interstingly...I'd like to bounce this off of some of you folks, since I haven't seen my books in awhile.<br /><br />The Kin are aged up to almost half a century, correct?  Yet none of them look even remotely anywhere NEAR Sorilea's age.<br /><br />How old might that make her?  Everyone talks about the Age of Legends, et al.  I recall one of the Forsaken's quotes (Aginor, I think?) &quot;The Wheel of Time grinds exceedingly fine over 3000 years.&quot;<br /><br />Yet here we have people who have been alive and rather healthy for at least a good chunk of that.  Now, we don't have any number-crunching on slowness, appearance and actual age, but in the absence of that, would it be out of the question to speculate that Sorilea might be approaching the age of 1,000?  After all, she never touched the Oath Rod.<br />


created: 2002-11-05 11:01:06
subject: <b>But remember Vashti,</b>
body:
that in one of the glossaries, under Sorilea's entry, it listed her as the oldest known Wise One, <i>but not by as much as most people think.</i> (Emphasis mine.)<br /><br />Thus, I don't believe that Sorilea is some uber-oldster, but rather is an old woman who actually looks her age (or more??). As we all know, her strength in the Power is almost neglible, and this probably accounts for her appearance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-05 13:48:10
subject: <b>By as much.</b>
body:
The &quot;by as much&quot; comment means simply that Sorilea isn't as much older than the <i>next</i> oldest Wise One as people think.  The next oldest Wise One could also be extremely old, much older than most people think.  If every female Aiel channeler becomes a Wise One, and channelers not bound to the Oath Rod typically live to a extremely old age, then there should be <i>an</i> extremely old channeler among them, even before counting Sorilea.  If Sorilea is the oldest Wise One, then she is most likely <i>extremely</i> old, no matter how much older she is than the next oldest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-05 23:52:02
subject: <b>re: Sul'Dam channeling</b>
body:
In the LoC prologue Nynaeve is channeling using Moghedien and the a'dam.  Moghedien was the one embracing the source, &quot;but it was Nynaeve who directed the channeling.&quot;  She could direct Moghedien's channeling whether or not she was mad enough to channel on her own.  I can't find the other quote I was looking for where Nynaeve (or Elayne?) was trying to learn the weave to detect a man channelling.  While wearing the collar, Moghedien could not demonstrate the weave herself, she described it and Nynaeve was the one weaving it with Moghedien's direction.  This would indicate that the collared person does NOT, in fact, do the weaving.<br /><br />In tGH, I believe, we learn that damane have to do what the sul'dam want.  I got the impression that they cannot channel anything but what the sul'dam direct them to.  Does anyone know where this is mentioned?<br /><br />These sections put together imply this: It is the bracelet wearer, the sul'dam, who does the weaving using the collared woman, the damane, as her link.  The a'dam in a way, turns the damane into an angreal or perhaps a &quot;puppet&quot;.  The damane is the only one to embrace the source and the flows come from her, but it is only possible when the sul'dam is directing it.  As was said in an earlier argument: because the sul'dam cannot see the glow, or the weaves, their &quot;channeling&quot; through the damane is done in the same way that a wilder with a block would channel.<br /><br />The more they do this, the more indirect practice they get channeling which is why they fail the test for damane, but after they have been linked for years they are able to become damane.  Again, in tGH, Egwene is told by her sul'dam, &quot;When one has been a sul'dam long enough one learns to tell many things about a damane even without the bracelet.&quot;  They learn by being the 'puppet-masters' and 'users' of the channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 21:28:06
subject: <b>But dilirah,</b>
body:
In TGH Egwene manages to channel a trickle of the power all on her own, without a <i>sul'dam</i> even present. Remember? It's the incident that made Renna rename her Tuli. Sure, it made Egwene feel sick to do it, but that's just an incentive thing. The point is she was capable of channeling if she was willing to put up with the sickness.<br /><br />Furthermore, when Egwene was first caught, her <i>sul'dam</i> knew she didn't even try to make the tree explode. That means that Egwene was the one doing the trying.<br /><br />I think that perhaps the anomaly of Moghedien not being able to demonstrate weaves for Nynaeve was just a result of Nynaeve not knowing how to make the <i>a'dam</i> allow Moggy to channel. When a *trained* channeler is holding the leash, she can use the link for herself as she likes, but an untrained woman like a <i>sul'dam</i> is dependent on the <i>damane</i> for the Power to be woven.<br /><br />-Toivo


created: 2002-11-07 16:12:53
subject: <b>Damane can channel, sul'dam do not.</b>
body:
It is implied if not stated outright in tGH that to test for damane, they simply see if they can sense the ability to channel.  The test for sul'dam is simply whether or not they can feel the damane through the bracelet.  Any &quot;test&quot; of the sul'dam would probably reveal she can channel.  Once someone tests postitive for the Power, the ability is there for good according to the Guide.  The oddness a channeler feels about the sul'dam is likely just assumed by damane to be the normal feel of a sul'dam.  And they can channel, sul'dam or no.  When one of the captives was uncollared in PoD, she channeled, killing several men until she was collared again.  Also in WH, Alivia in her conversation with Nynaeve, the day after she's let loose, shows she feels just as capable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 23:43:31
subject: <b>Sorelia and Cadsuane</b>
body:
Your best piece of evidence that slowing is not dependent on strength in the One Power is Sorelia's great age, but she can only be 100-150 years old, which is not really that old. For all of you who think I just pulled that out of a hat, remember when Sorelia tried to marry off Egwene to a young man with a scar (offering to introduce them in sweat tent), well, she said that his great-grandfather was her sister's son. So, let's say the young man is the same age as Egwene (~20) and 20 is the average generation time, then his great-grandfather would have been born 80 years ago, and Sorelia is likely to be 100. Even with 30 years as the generation time (which is quite long), she is still only 150 max.<br /><br />And Cadsuane has suprised all the Aes Sedi with her age - everyone was amazed to see her still alive both times she made a comeback, so she is obviously extremely old for an Aes Sedi, and is also the strongest until very recently.


created: 2003-06-08 14:04:19
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Just a note to ADRIAN:<br /><br />Cadsuane was 295 years old when we first met her- and later from her POV knew she realized she didn`t have much time left.<br /><br />Again, when she and Sorilea made their Water Oath re teaching Rand laughter and tears, Cadsuane noted to herself that the two of them were about the same age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 12:45:04
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
nice theory although i must say that now damane are out of the equasion i am in favor of rand giving seanchan a good old fashioned ass-whippin rather than peace<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-24 17:17:50
subject: <b>good theory, let me add a bit.</b>
body:
I couldn't imagine myself living unquestioningly in Seanchan. this may be due to my personality (I once said that the Seanchan were the best villians ever written, and was utterly dissapointed when I was told that there would be a truce rather then a grand liberation and had to fall back to my hopes that the Sharans, at least, would get what's coming to them)), and it may be because I have a few things things they don't (political satire, Rock'n'roll, etc.), and maybe the rebellons often alluded to were the reults of the George Orwells and Niel Pearts of the continent, but damane on the rebels' side makes it more likely that they were living under the &quot;seanchan philosophy&quot;. BUT, if the Empress had lived over 300 years and they had &quot;living proof&quot; ot the creator's intent, that would add quite a bit of weight to their propaganda. any long life of the sul'dam may also be percieved as divine favor. It would also make it more likely that there had been no emporors for nearly 900 years if we increased the length of one reign from 30-90 years to several hundred and called Algwyn Luthair's son.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">we really need an edit button on the blackboard. I mean, who doesn't occasionally make a comment that (unintentionally) sounds really snooty, as if it insulted a lot of people's intelegence, then realize they mis-spelled it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 11:47:06
subject: <b>Honestly Didnt realise this was an issue</b>
body:
I would say this is obvious - but fair play you have a point, and yes there are variations in level of blade master. However while Rand defeated Turak that may have something to do with the three ta'veren being in the same place and the need of the Pattern.<br /><br />I would say that the blademasters are definately not of the same level. Lan is the most dangerous, but even he was second to Ryne (another Malkieri) before he died. We must only assume that Isam/Luc is fairly hard as well. Gald is defo better than Gawyn. I would think that Rand is better than Gawyn but there is nothing to actually make such a comparison. Following that Id say that due to the nature of the books the other blademasters wil not be as good as these guys. AND I still think that Rand and Gawyn will improve, as will Galad. <br /><br />Thats my evaluation but no real basis.<br /><br />GOOD WORK LADDY<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 12:38:46
subject: <b>huh?</b>
body:
This is in response to Moridin 2000.  &quot;Galad isn't that good anyway.&quot; <br /><br />The Fires of Heaven Ch. 48 pg. 557-8 HC: &quot;Yet if they held the mob, it was Galad who broke them.   He faced their charge as though awaiting the next dance at a ball, arms folded and unconcerned, not even bothering to bare his blade until they were almost on top of him.  Then he did dance, all his grace turned in an instant to fluid death.  He did not stand against them, he carved a path into their heart, a clear swath as wide as his sword's reach.  Sometimes five or six men closed in around him with swords and axes and table legs for clubs but only for the brief time it took them to die.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps I am just being dense and this is sarcasm but if not this seems to me to be like saying Rand isn't all that strong in the One Power.


created: 2002-11-06 12:54:56
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
who was this other malkeri? I take it he was in new spring (as im not familiar with the name and haven't read new spring.) but if he was you should remember that lan has had 20 odd years to improve, I agree he is the best though but I would say galad would best rand! Valada skill is unknown when matched with other blademasters though! I imagine that he would match most or their would be no point entering his sword skill to the story<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 13:36:41
subject: <b>I thought this was obvious as well....</b>
body:
But you put to rest anyones doubt with the Nial quote &amp; well reasoned reason why.<br /><br />As well, I always believed that if Galad wasn't yet rated a blademaster, it was only because he hadn't tested. Which bring my question, who bestows the title blademaster? Is there a Grand Fraternal Humbug Order of Blademasters that meets? <b>Are</b> there tests/challenges that must be passed/met to attain the level?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pike-Captain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Prepare to pass the Heart Guard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <br />Its time to dance with Jak o' the Shadows! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />War is evil. But sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils.- Kissinger<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 14:01:59
subject: <b>Rand didn't get voted in by a governing body of BMs</b>
body:
Blademasters aren't made; they are recognized.  A experienced swordsman (not necessarily a blademaster himself) should be able to recognize a blademaster when he sees one fight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 14:12:45
subject: <b>Lan vs Galad</b>
body:
Right from this site (and others), an interview with RJ:<br /><br /><i><b>Rob Hill from Cardiff, Wales, U.K.:</b> Who would win in a sword fight between lan and galad? My moneys on lan. <br /><b>RJ:</b> (laughs) Unless you can find someone else to bet with, use your money to buy yourself some beer.</i><br /><br />In orther words, unless you can find somebody who is silly enough to put money on Galad, your money is better spent elsewhere.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 14:19:51
subject: <b>As is typical of me</b>
body:
I focus on some side issues rather then addressing the main theory. Anyway, I agree with Ruriha Sedai that Valad is a blademaster, and look forward to a clash between him and Galad. Any physical fighting in general in the books gets my thumbs up, weither swords, spears, axes, or using the One Power to make waves of people explode. Ok, so I favor the Dumai's Wells type stuff, but sword fighting is cool too!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 15:19:40
subject: <b>Don't you forget someone???</b>
body:
Although Mat and Perrin do not handle swords, they are some pretty tough fighters (Mat is better than Perrin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) I would like to see them fight any of the blademasters! It will be a battle to remember!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 15:29:10
subject: <b>Pretty good find.</b>
body:
I also didn't realize there was an issue about this, but I (along with most, I suppose) had forgotten about his heron-marked blade.  Good catch.<br /><br />In regards to &quot;who would best who&quot; arguments, I think it's important that we keep in mind situational variables.  Are we talking about a sparring match, or an &quot;all the chips are down&quot; situation?<br /><br />In a friendly joust, Galad rates as high as anyone in the world, in my opinion.  But we have yet to see him tested in a pressure situation against a highly skilled opponent.  For example, if it really came down to it, I think there's a good chance Gawyn would be able to take him out (he'd fight dirty).  And I don't think anyone argues that Lan or Rand would be able to dispatch Galad in a life or death situation.  Lan's probably the most lethal swordsman in the world, and Rand is kind of psycho.  Plus he's got that whole Dragon Reborn/ta'veren thing going on for him.<br /><br />As far as Turak goes, I think it's entirely possible that he really wasn't all that good, and a half-trained Rand (by mainland standards) may have been the equal of a Seanchan blademaster.  I mean, when your armies have damane, s'redit, grolm, etc. all available to you, it would greatly reduce the amount of toe-to-toe hack &amp; slash that is necessary.  I wouldn't be surprised to discover that one-on-one hand-to-hand swordsmanship is somewhat of a lost art in the Seanchan empire.<br /><br />And although they had constant rebellions &amp; uprisings, the Seanchan continent certainly doesn't have anything like the Blight in which to keep entire countries &amp; armies honed.<br /><br />Hmmm, maybe I should make this into a theory . . . .


created: 2002-11-06 16:44:27
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Good catch on the Valda stuff. <br /><br />Interestingly, there is not a lot MORE regarding Galad's skill.  Before the predictable happens, I've already stated that I think Galad's likely in the top half-dozen in skill.  But as has been demonstrated many times in the series, at least from Jordan's standpoint (and mine as well), there's more to a fight than skill.  <br /><br />Even Lan made that one reference, paraphrased &quot;He thought I was finished, with just one arm, but....&quot;<br /><br />Galad is likely more skillful than Gawyn, but it is well possible that Gawyn is more 'dangerous'.  Even if she's not a fighting expert, we HAVE to give Min's perspective some validity. It was an awfully definitive statement &quot;But who knew that Gawyn would prove the more dangerous?&quot; Her viewings tend to fall in those categories.<br /><br />Same with Rand.  Certainly with Lan.  A lot of it is attitude.  Galad simply hasn't been pushed.  Can anyone ever see him 'Sheathing the Sword', as Rand did to defeat Ishamael?  Galad is so absolutely secure in his competence that it doesn't yet appear that he could concieve of a circumstance where he might not win.<br /><br />That may be competence; it may also be immaturity and inexperience (not lack of talent...that's different). <br /><br />Galad hasn't been pushed, while Rand has sought to push himself at every opportunity, against the finest competition in whatever land he's in.  Against the finest of the deadly Aiel, in practice against Lan...There's no way Galad has shown a smidgen of that intestinal fortitude.<br /><br />Galad is wonderfully skillful.  But he's not even close in being remotely as experienced and gritty as Valda, Lan, Rand, and now even Gawyn.  Hey, if Valda's willing to assassinate, why wouldn't he be willing to use dirty tricks that Galad couldn't even contemplate?<br /><br />As for others...Mat whupped him pretty bad.  And Perrin...I dunno. Another thing of 'not better', but Perrin seems fairly close to a berserker at times.  If he felt it was important, he'd probably take a sword thrust, trap it in his ribs, and hack Galad's shocked face off with his axe.  Better? No.  But very, very dangerous; maybe more so. (but for those about to leap...probably not).<br /><br />And we can only take the Ta'veren thing so far.  Ta'veren are not invincible. In fact, it very well may be that whatever makes one Ta'veren may well completely fail to aid that person, since they need to do things on their own.  Plus, it's possible to work against them (as with Rand in the duel in the camp).  Remember...Ta'veren doesn't mean 'only good'.


created: 2002-11-06 17:41:30
subject: <b>Mat the staffmaster</b>
body:
Jerome (sp?) the greatest blademaster ever was defeated only once, by a farmer with a quarterstaff. we constantly hear how he defeated 10 at once blah blah blah... If there is ever a point where Galad must choose between his sister and friends, and his vows as a Child im betting Mat will be there as needed (as he promised to Nyneave and Elayne in bk3)and give whiteycloak boy a good licking with his ashandarei. Humility is a virtue, and Galad is lacking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 18:42:18
subject: <b>On my comment</b>
body:
I forgot to use italics <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />. I meant to say that he isn't <i>that</i> good with a sword. I certainly don't think him Blademaster standard. Rand had LTT's latent memory and Lan's teaching, which accounts for his skill. I think that Valda could beat Galad in combat. I could be wrong though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 19:41:30
subject: <b>Giving Rand Credit</b>
body:
I think we should more than we do.<br /><br />I don't have the Guide or so, but does it say somewhere that Lews Therin was a blademaster? It says he was a great general, but I don't recall anything about any superb skill. Trained, sure, good, likely.  I bet Gareth Byrne and Bashere are good, but they're not blademasters (that we've seen). But a master...dunno.  Can someone help with this?<br /><br />Also...I'm fairly confident that while we have seen many instances where Rand received that LTT aid in channeling, I don't recall ever once seeing it for weapon work. <br /><br />One of the themes in the book is Rand struggling to retain his own identity. Perhaps his swordsmanship is all him and the influences in HIS life.  Let's face it, his 'father' was a blademaster.  He obviously knew how to use a bow quite well even by the time Moiraine found him, and was likely pretty good with a staff.  His father trained him in things like the Void, which is essentially concentration and focus. In TGH, Lan gave him a solid assessment of his promise (You don't make the same mistakes twice, etc.), saying that in 5 years he could make him a blademaster.<br /><br />Well, it hasn't been five years; it's been what? 2? maybe 3?  But of course, Rand's 'education' has been far more accelerated than what Lan likely would have put him through. <br /><br />Maybe Rand is a blademaster in his own right, on his own merit?


created: 2002-11-06 23:20:24
subject: <b>rand might be the top man</b>
body:
OK. i know everyone KNOWS lan is the best swordsman bar none. but i was just rereading WH. &quot;He[Lan] might chatter with Rand like two men over pipes and ale, but he thought Rand was dangerous. And Rand looked at Lan as if he knew it, and accepted it.&quot; (WH,Ideas of Importance. pg274) Now some of you may think that Rand is dangerous becuase he is a mentally unstable channeler. I think that may be part of it but i think more so that Lan knows Rand has matching physical fighting capabilities if not superior. also when Rand barely had his sword Lan said he could make him a blademaster in a year. Is it just me or is a year a very short time to become a master at anything, ESPECIALLY SWORDSMANSHIP. it has been about 2-3 years, if his rate of imrovement remained semi constant imagine what he would be now. <br />As for everyone else i think Galad is better than Gawyn but barely and rand could whoop up on either though they MIGHT give him a run for his money, i repeat might. i don't know where valda falls but turak was much further down. <br />in regard to what someone said(sorry forgot who) about mat and perrin they are undoubtedly blademasters. mat tore up gawyn and galad both at THE SAME TIME!!!!! i think mat could push rand though Rand would come out on top if he didn't get distracted like he did when he dualed the person who Fain was influencing(cant remember that name either).i also hope you notice that the best swordsman all seem to be on the side of the light, even valda. this could help in the last battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ignorance is not just bliss, it is a house that i live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />                                 -Wayne Brady<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 23:56:52
subject: <b>MAT IS THE BEST</b>
body:
I think Mat would whip anyones arse in a fight. He got staight out of a sick bed and thrashed Galad and Gawyn at once. That was before he got his memories. I bet with those memories he would be a blade master hundeds of times over. Finally it is obvious he is the most dextorous and has the best reflexes of anyone in the series. Sure Lan might give him a good fight but he'd slip on a banana skin and fall on Mat's spear or something...


created: 2002-11-07 05:42:13
subject: <b>Read the whole reference</b>
body:
In glimmers, at the reference, it stats several things.<br />1. The guys are big (most big guys are a little slower - definatly not conclusive in itself)<br />2. They were questioners - they don't usually fight with swords<br />3. It was cold and there arms were crossed - no where near their weapons.<br /><br />Any half decent experienced soldier could take them, you wouldn't need to be a blademaster.<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-07 08:30:31
subject: <b>I dont think Rand is the 'best'</b>
body:
After all, Toram Riatin gave him a kicking, and Rand was certainly doing his best.  Rand is pretty darn proud, and he didn't want to lose face.<br />  This establishes, I think, that Lan is a better swordsman than Rand.  The question remains where Galad might stand.<br />  Personally, I put Galad as either second or best.  I know this won't be a popular opinion, but the quote given above in reference to Galad's sword-work in TFoH almost seals it for me.  Even compared to Birgitte's bow-work, which we all know is legendary, Galad's swordsmanship was the real stand-out element in that battle.  The passage describing Galad here is, as far as I recall, unique in the WOT.  Galad was ten paces away from the others (I think) and surrounded by chaos on all sides, and yet carved a path for himself and remained unscathed.  Admittedly, Lan might 'sheathe the sword' whereas Galad would not, and its certainly undeniable that Galad would never fight dirty, but his skill is nothing short of legendary, IMO.<br />  Mat uses a quarterstaff, and thus has an unfair advantage.  He also has those other memories, the quickest hands Thom has ever seen, etc.  He gets my vote for most dangerous (non-magic) fighter.  I just don't know how to rank Lan against Galad.  And Jordan's response to that question seems just a little ambiguous to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 09:54:10
subject: <b>Same Old Question</b>
body:
To be the best, you have to beat the best.  Galad hasn't matched himself against any blademasters.  I'm sure he will, I'm sure he'll win some.   But he hasn't yet.  <br /><br />Until he starts beating up on more than a crowd of thugs, he can't make that claim.<br /><br />And yeah, I know he looked great in practice against Warders, and they're awfully good.  'course, Rand killed armed Warders with his bare hands, while surrounded by them and Aes Sedai.<br /><br />I don't consider Rand the best.  But he is great.  As for Toram, he certainly faced a master, but he was also operating with numerous disadvantages  (coat, gloves, and Pain's interference, and his wound).  Against a deadly opponent, that's pretty tough to overcome.<br /><br />Galad needs to justify the hype, against people at his own level. Until then, he can't be annointed anything without it just being hype.


created: 2002-11-07 10:49:01
subject: <b>Isn't this 'theory' making mountains out of mohills?</b>
body:
It is just about self-evident that Valda is a blademaster.<br /><br />No self-respecting officer would carry a heron-mark blade if they did not truly deserve it.  It would be a bad precedent for their men.<br /><br />This seems almost more like stating quotes out of the book directly, than making any real theory.


created: 2002-11-07 11:16:56
subject: <b>Isn't any theory?</b>
body:
The best ones are the ones with the most obvious quotes. Take Semi-Anath, Setelle Anan and Noal Farstrider. In this case though, most people seemed to have overlooked this fact. I certainly did. Ruriha mentioned that there was some debate on it and she was simply clearing it up.<br /><br />There is also the issue of whether or not Galad can beat Valda just as easily...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 13:22:08
subject: <b>To baphomet23,</b>
body:
Toram didn't give Rand a &quot;kicking&quot;. They seemed to be pretty well matched but then there was a noise that had to do with the fog cloud and Rand got distracted and paused. Toram, being the DF that he is, didn't hold back and let Rand have it.<br /><br />Anyway, regarding who's the best and who has or hasn't been tested, consider this.<br /><br />In the NBA (silly analogy), Shaq is most likely the best player (at the moment), right? But, I don't know of many people who would argue that he is the most TALENTED. Certainly, Kobe or Ray Allen would be considered more talented, but what makes Shaq the best is that he uses what he has (height, being HUGE).<br /><br />Liken this to WOT (lol) and we can see why Rand and Lan are the best, whereas Galad certainly isn't. Yes, I concede that Galad is most likely the most talented, and with some refinement and practical experience he could be the best bar none. But until he gets that exp he's just another wannabe Shaq, looking pretty like Kobe. Rand and Lan on the other hand use what they have, namely desire and their wits.<br /><br />Wow, I hope you followed all that, but like everyone else I find this topic particularly interesting and wanted to share my thoughts.<br /><br />Good theory, BTW, and I do agree that Valda is a BM.<br /><br />Oh yeah, and someone else wondered how you get delegated a Blademaster. Well, I think it's like declaring yourself one or being recognized as one. See, I'm a skilled Java program and thus can designate myself a Java guru, or if you like a Javamaster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 14:51:05
subject: <b>Lews Therin's skillz &amp; other misc. ramblings</b>
body:
Re: the swordsmanship of Lews Therin, isn't there a passage somewhere with Ishamael talking to Rand/LTT . . .   &quot;we took the game of swords &amp; made it deadly&quot; or some such?  I got the impression from that section that Lews Therin &amp; Ishamael (whose original non-forsaken name I don't recall) were two of the best of their time.<br /><br />Also, I believe it was Siuan who made the &quot;Gawyn may be more dangerous than Galad&quot; observation, not Min.<br /><br />As far as who qualifies as a blade-master, I think actually using a sword as your weapon of choice is a pretty important requirement.  You can't consider Mat or Perrin to be a blademaster, but that's not to say they wouldn't be able to match one in combat.  Vashti's hypothetical Perrin/Galad fight with him taking the sword in the ribs (and not caring) in order to win I think is pretty indicative of what could really happen.  Imagine if Faile were killed or something.  Perrin's got his whole Beserker/animalinstinct/sharpened senses thing, and Mat of course has his excellent skill with a quarterstaff, as well as numerous other well-documented advantages.<br /><br />And Rand, of course, is unbelievably dangerous - him killing 2 warders with his bare hands while under guard by Aes Sedai (after being beaten, dehydrated, malnourished, &amp; kept in a box for several days), is pretty indicative of what he's capable of.  I can't picture anyone else but Lan being able to do something like that (that we've been introduced to, at least).  Maybe Rhuarc?<br /><br />But bottom line, I think we need to differentiate between blademasters &amp; deadly warriors.  Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, McLaren, Porsches, etc. are all the fastest street cars in the world (blademasters), and garner a lot of respect because of that.  But there are superbikes out there that despite being able to embarass them all, aren't given nearly as much respect (Mat).<br /><br />Maybe Mat's success/fame will be the start of a new &quot;staffmasters&quot; or &quot;ashandareimasters&quot; society . . . .  They'd all have a big goofy hat instead of a heron mark or something.  And they can have tourneys against the Wetlander blademasters and Aiel spearmasters.  Hey, they'll all need something to do after they lock away the Dark One again . . . .


created: 2002-11-07 15:53:39
subject: <b>Galad is definaly ablademaster</b>
body:
do you recall when he was helping them out of tanchico i think and he just cut down a bunch of people without taking as scratch, well everyone else had cuts even birgitte, however nyneave remarks how death seem to just fall around.


created: 2002-11-07 16:47:55
subject: <b>Get it right</b>
body:
Bel'al was the one who said he and LTT had adapted a &quot;tame&quot; fencing sport into a form of combat. Loial said he and Sammael were both blademasters (It never says LTT was). Leane said she had always thought Galad was the more dangerous of the two brothers, implying that now she believes Gawyn might be.  There is more to being dangerous than swordsmanship.  Mat has no idea how to use a sword, but Birgitte says he's more dangerous than Nalsean, a soldier and aristocrat who has likely trained in swordsmanship his whole life.  Rand never even hints he has learned swordfighting from LTT.  He routinely mentions anything he learns from LTT or things that might come from his memories, like Old Tongue phrases or words, weaves of saidin, or tactics and strategy, but never anything like swordsmanship.  He has some of LTT's physical abilities like drawing, and can use his own talents like flute-playing in conjunction with the memeories, but it never says he borrowed his skill with a sword from LTT.  Rand probably beat Turak because his skill took a sudden jump upward when he started concentrating properly.  It is highly likely that the Seanchan blademasters are every bit as good as the Westlanders.  Finally, Galad has fought in battle, and even though that has very little to do with swordforms, he has likely acquired some experience in &quot;the butcher's work.&quot;  He can't be ruled out just because he isn't all that popular or because he's good-looking. Don't forget, Rand's and Galad's mother learned Aiel fighting styles and survival skills in a year.  She was already a good shot with a bow by Aiel standards, which seems atypical of Andoran noblewomen (Morgase's reluctance to learn to handle a knife, when she is plainly willing to fight alongside her people in a hopeless battle if necessary; Bryne's statement that Arathelle would leave command in military matters to her ally, Lord Pelivar).  Good combat instincts and a knack for learning to fight might just run in Tigraine's family.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 18:09:09
subject: <b>So, Valda is kinda like Shandon Anderson</b>
body:
...not a bad basketball player, but not near in the same category as Shaq or Kobe. Although there are actually over 300 players in the NBA, and only 100+/- blademasters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 20:10:48
subject: <b>In any event...</b>
body:
It is likely clear that Valda will be Galad's 'baptism'.  Presumably, Galad will win. <br /><br />As for how does one get to be a blademaster?  Bear a heronmark sword?  Well, they're not just 'found'.  I'd imagine you get such a sword by award (from nobles) in recognition of reputation...or by winning it (defeating its former bearer).<br /><br />Interestingly, the fact that one possesses a heronmark sword almost certainly identifies them as a blademaster, because if they aren't, then they will lose soon enough.  Rand was very much an exception to this in Byrne's assessment.  paraphrasing, &quot;He can't have earned it, yet somehow it is his.&quot;<br /><br />Turak likely took Rand lightly after the first few passes, enabling Rand to stay alive long enough to make that 'jump'. There's a lot to be said about being young, strong, fast and hard as nails...with some practice.  Turak let his concentration lapse, and soon enough was an ex-blademaster (as well as being ex-alive).<br /><br />The one guy it would be interesting to see again is the one who beat Rand in that exercise (where Bashere threw the dagger at him).  Rand called for the best availible...and even though it was 3 v. 1, he had dispatched the other two.  That guy still beat him, one on one. Or very close to it.


created: 2002-11-07 21:01:17
subject: <b>how does one become a blademaster</b>
body:
I read in some Jordan interview, can't remember where, that the only way to become a bladesmaster was to be accepted by other blademasters as a blademaster.<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-07 21:36:56
subject: <b>ONE MORE THING</b>
body:
I reckon Aram is a contender when it comes to who is the best with a SWORD. I reckon Galad is way over rated. The pansy has only faced rabble. Sure he looks good jumping around a practice yard or chopping up farmers and tradesmen but lets see how well he does against aiel or seanchan deathwatch guards. Aram has only fought trollocks and shaido, the tinker has never been scratched.<br /><br />And Lan would whip Galad's arse. I mean when Mat ( in his first hour out of a sick bed) humiliated both Gawyn and Galad in TV, Jordan was saying &quot;these pretty boys don't cut it in the big league.&quot;<br /><br />I reckon even Olver could beat Galad. He's a pussy.<br /><br />Finally I think Gaul and Elyas must be rated. Elyas for obvious reasons and because Gaul is the archetype aiel warrior. Remember in tDR: he sat in a cage for a few days, without anything to eat or drink then wasted at least eight or nine fully armed and armoured whitcloaks with his bare hands.


created: 2002-11-07 23:41:06
subject: <b>I like this topic</b>
body:
Okay, on the subject of Rand beating Turak: When you learn a martial art (like kung fu) before you learn the sword you learn the staff. All the moves are the same with the advantages of not chopping your own leg off if you make a mistake. Once you have mastered the staff it's much easier to master the sword, especially since it is a smaller less cumbersome weapon. Remember Tam and Abel were the best staff fighters in the two rivers. So it's not so odd Rand learned so quickly or that he defeated a blademaster after such a short time of sword training. He also was trained by the best, which counts for something.


created: 2002-11-07 23:59:02
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
I've always thought that at this time, Galad has got to be about even if not better than Rand with a sword, maybe just slightly worse, and Rand fought Toram Riatin in A Crown of Swords, and Riatin IS a Blademaster, and Rand was AT LEAST even with him. That says that Rand at least is a Blademaster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 00:38:32
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
Jay jay you've got something there, Galad sucks and Aram just has to turn out to be the best blademaster ever with his hype.<br /><br />Personally, I think by the end of the series it will be Aram, Rand, Lan, Mat, then miscellaneous blademasters/warders. Galad will be dead. Gawyn is too wipped to even be counted.


created: 2002-11-08 11:49:58
subject: <b>blademasters</b>
body:
remember rand and toram fought for quite a while, they paced back and forth,in far madding lan whipped toram in quick time ( although he did get injured a bit) so this goes to show lan is better than lan at the moment anyway as to where galad stands he needs to start fighting trained swordsman<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 12:48:12
subject: <b>Galad</b>
body:
I remember reading about Galad and Gawyn being trained by Hammer and that other guy at the tower to be a blademaster, and they killed them along with other warders and blademasters<br />i see it like a sport, a guy in lets say wrestling for 4 years against a guy for 8, the guy who was in it for four years may have been taught by better people, maybe be smarter and learn rom his mistakes faster(Rand never making the same mistake twice), and may just have a natural talent for it.  anyways I think Galad is goo, not the best but good.


created: 2002-11-08 14:46:57
subject: <b>The Hammer</b>
body:
It was Gawyn who slew the Hammer and essentially led the 'revolt'. <br /><br />It is Gawyn more than anyone that makes me intrigued.  He may actually turn into a darkfriend.  Others have for less. So far, as far as he knows, the Dragon Reborn slew his mother and tried to claim the throne, the traditional leader of the 'Free World' (Suian Sanche) sent his sister, whom he was sworn to protect, off to her apparent demise.  He is the agent of Mesaana (unwittingly) and other Black Ajah.<br /><br />He is perilously close to damnation.<br /><br />And then there's the dream where he MAY actually execute Egwene. <br /><br />


created: 2002-11-09 18:31:13
subject: <b>Galad defeats Valda...</b>
body:
without much effort.  Galad is better than he thinks and thats what makes him dangerous.  Valda is a blademaster which makes him dangerous also.  Valda's weakness is that he is overconfident. It will kill him in a fight with the likes of Galad.  <br /><br /> <br /><br />Columbo's ranking:<br />1. Rand<br />2. Lan<br />3. Galad<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-09 21:59:41
subject: <b>galad</b>
body:
i always thought that Gawyn was better than galad but tried not to out shine him to give galad more credit. remember that it was Gawyn who killed i think it was Hammer in the rebellion


created: 2002-11-10 00:30:21
subject: <b>P Floyd's Official Top Ten Rankings</b>
body:
This includes not only swordsman, but anyone with any weapon.<br /><br />1. Be'lal<br />2. Rand<br />3. Lan<br />4. Mat<br />5. Perrin<br />6. Rhuarc<br />7. Gawyn<br />8. Galad<br />9. Torma <br />10. Aram<br /><br />Why Be'lal number 1? I'm not sure, but that's the way I feel, since Rand remarked on how good he was when they fought in the Stone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 11:13:16
subject: <b>Out of interest...</b>
body:
...why are you putting Rand ahead of Lan?<br /><br />I mean, if we were just talking in terms of who would win a fight, I would say Rand without a doubt. If for some reason he wanted to kill Lan, he'd burn him to a cinder on the spot. If they were in a stedding or anywhere Rand couldn't channel, it'd be much closer, but I'd say Rand would win due to his ta'vereness. Unless the pattern required him to lose for some reason.<br /><br />If however we're just talking about who is the better swordsman, taking away channeling and luck, I can't see any reason to think Rand the better. Eventually (if he survives) yes, at Rand's peak I think he will be better than at Lan's peak.<br /><br />As for that RJ comment about Galad vs Lan, I don't see why you could only take it to mean that you shouldn't bet on Galad. Jordan didn't know whether the person who was asking the question meant that he was supporting Galad or Lan. I always took it to mean &quot;That fight's never going to happen, so find another 2 to bet on.&quot;


created: 2002-11-11 14:39:11
subject: <b>LOL everybody is forgetting Isam</b>
body:
Silly silly silly. Think genetically: he is Rand's uncle and Lan's cousin merged...............genetically he is probably disposed to being a good swordsman. Further more both Luc and Isam were likely to be trained in swordsmanship........especially Isam being Malkieri. Now consider the fact that they have been the Shadow's chief assasin for years. Isam will be hard as nails: on a par with Lan<br /><br />Also think logically. Galad has many referance made about how good he is and whenever him and Gawyn were compared he came out favourably. There is mention of his natural talent because he is better.....thats the only reason why we would be told. Furthermore Galad was beating blademasters (Harnan - the master-at-arms  at the tower) for ages.<br /><br />Rand is up there cos hes the Dragon Reborn and insanely hard.............Lan cos hes Lan. <br /><br />IN ANSWER TO QUESTIONS:<br /><br />Lews Therin and Be'lal were the ones who began swordfighting as an act of combat as opposed to sport.<br /><br />Ryne was a better swordsman than Lan, he was in New Spring.<br /><br />I ALSO PROPOSE THAT LAN IS NOT GROWING IN SKILL AND NEITHER ARE ANY OF THE OTHER OLDER SWORDSMAN. SKILL PLATEAUS AT A CERTAIN LEVEL.<br /><br />Thus I would say:<br /><br />1 - Lan<br />2 - Isam<br />3/4 - Galad/Rand<br />5 - Gawyn<br />6 - Valda<br />7 - Aram<br />8 - Tam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-14 07:53:20
subject: <b>Parallell</b>
body:
I think you can draw a nice parallell to legendary fighters of our time:<br /><br />Mat - Bruce Lee; quicker than his own shadow, and pound by pound possibly as tough as anyone.<br /><br />Galad - Jet li; his strength lies within grace, but this is also his weakness. <br /><br />Lan - Jackie Chan; lots of rough experience, and a vast number of moves combined with natural talent.<br /><br />Perrin - Chuck Norris; even though lacking style, he gets the job done, and trust me... you don't wanna upset him! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Rand - unknown; I think Rand is actually using a combo of all these styles.<br /><br />Conclusions: Uh... what was my point again...? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />-dt<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-16 17:58:15
subject: <b>Gawyn is a little prick!</b>
body:
He stabbed Suian's warder in the back, and probably killed Hammar in the same way too! There is NO way a bunch of new recruit punks could take on highly trained and experienced swordsman otherwise. It's like a bunch of guys taking martial arts for 1-3 years, still having another 2-3 years until 1st degree in blackbelt, and somehow massacreing a ton of 1st-5th degree blackbelts. It makes no sense at ALL! THAT SIMPLY COULD NOT HAPPEN. I'd say he's overrated and a putz and should be dealt with by Rand...that or he should kill himself after realizing how much of an idiot he is and how he has murdered people for the shadow!<br /><br />Anyway, Lan is the man, well all know that; and I'd say Aram is definetly a blademaster as well. Being surrounded by hordes of trollocs and shaido and never letting them touch him or Perrin is quite a feat, and Tam's comments about Aram are evidence, as well as Aram &quot;dancing with his blade&quot;.<br /><br />Galad is pretty awesome I'd say, being able to rip through beggars faster than legendary Birgitte, and regarding a small team of Shienarians, one being Uno, as nothing, and them accepting it as near the truth(!). <br /><br />Mat is pretty incredible, for the Galad/Gawyn incident, as well as shredding a myddrall in seconds after gaining his memories, and beheading Couladin amongst an army of Aiel, and for reducing the DF beggar population by 75% in every city that he has resided in.<br /><br />Perrin is pretty good, with his strength and going berserk and all, and crushing metal cups with one hand! He's taken on plenty of trollocs and survived hordes of Aiel without a scratch too, but part of that you can attribute to Aram. (I personally nominate Perrin and Aram as WoT's best tag team excluding channeling!) He really oughta dual wield the axe and hammer though.<br /><br />Rand is great, though hard to measure, due to channeling (the main reason why he beat Turak is that he embraced saidin and got his senses enhanced). He's definetly up there, but I'll just say he could definetly kill Gawyn. Galad would be hard to say (it's too hard to deny the devestation he waged upon those thugs when compared to Birgitte and the Shienarians), and the same with Aram, partially cos I think that Galad and Aram may be roughly equal with eachother (though Aram has been facing much harder battles that we have seen, the two fighters are described very similarly when fighting).<br /><br />Isam/luc is just plain unfair. They can pop in and out of T'A'R whenever they want, wherever they want. I think only Lan's superior skill/wit/senses/reflexes or Rand channeling (probably by using the cords of fire trap) could defeat him popping in and out of reality on you, with poisoned weapons. He's more a murderer than a blademaster (JUST LIKE GAWYN).<br /><br />Anyway, to Valda, we haven't seen any demonstrations that can really give a measure as to how good he is, so who knows? Maybe he's better than Galad, but that is unlikely. I think Galad might lose his composure/grace if he realizes that Valda raped his mother though, and could cause him to fight worse...or maybe better/more dangerously? Anger usually clouds the senses, but it sure works for Perrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-17 06:28:43
subject: <b>Jeez, it's been awhile....</b>
body:
Vashti - I know you made your claim and have to stick by it now, but you seem to continually backtrack. Soon Galad will be the best in your eyes and you would have us believe that you had known it all along <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Also, that was Leane saying that Gawyn MAY HAVE BEEN more dangerous, but what does Leane know about sword fighting? Anything? Nope. Also, Gawyn reveals in his own thoughts that Hammar had been fighting all day while Gawyn formed the resistance later known as the Younglings. Hammar was exhausted. Galad, on the other hand, could defeat Hammar two of three with Hammar's choice of weapons. By the end, even the warders were not a challenge for him so he stopped coming. Gawyn himself thinks that it was ALL HE COULD DO to hang on against Galad. If he tried to do anything other than survive, he would be finished. Oh, and he also says that Galad did that effortlessly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Can I see Galad doing anything to win? Yes, I can. Much moreso than Gawyn, for example. Galad is just about the most strongwilled person in the series, save Rand, Lan, Moiraine and Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Galad will do what is right NO MATTER WHAT, said his sister. Can we trust her opinion? His confidence is not overconfidence, though. It has never shown that it is overconfidence; only the knowledge that he is the best. That can be more dangerous to an opponent than 'What if I dont win?' because there is 0 doubt in Galad's mind. That makes him HUGELY dangerous. But galad hasnt been pushed, right? Beating the Warders silly? If I could beat Lennox Lewis silly no problem at all, what odds would you give me against Evander Holyfield? Once again you demonstrate your incompetence with the 'Mat whupped him pretty good' line. Such ignorance as to whatwas really going on there. <br /><br />Non Blademaster believers: When you kill a blademaster, or are considered an equal by one, you are one. Therefore Rand is a BM in two different ways.<br /><br />Windsor: You mistook that quote. Jordan was trying to save that guy some money by betting on Lan. He was hinting that Galad would win a showdown.<br /><br />balefried: We dont know the circumstances of Jearom's defeat to a farmer. Was he surprised? Sick? Drunk? etc? We cant say for sure, so the whole 'staff beats sword' thing is really just a runor of sorts: not proven. Also, please re-read that scene to see what was really going on and why Mat beat G&amp;G.<br /><br />JAY JAY: Memories of the mind are not the same as muscle memory. Mat does not have his great technique of Spear fighting from the memories, but rather from his father. He added things in later because of the memories, but in the end Mat is still just a farmer with a staff, not the highly trained killing machine that Rand is.<br /><br />Vashti 2: Galad made Nynaeve's jaw drop in FoH whith his sword skill. Nyn has seen Lan, remember? Her thought was that she had never seen anything like it, EVER. Oh, and remember those guys, the Shinerians? They could not believe it either. You know, the guys who had spent their whole lives fighting wars against Trollocs and Fades? Yeah, they were, how did RJ put it? In Awe of him.<br /><br />JAY JAY 2: Thank you for showing your incompetence. Galad has beaten Blademasters and warders with their choice as weapons. Mat won because he NEEDED that money (ta'varen) and G&amp;G felt sorry for him. They underestimated him, as it was not a battle to the death, but I dont see Galad screwing around if it's for his life.<br /><br />P FLOYD: Actually, Sammael was the world champion swordfighter in the AoL B4 the War of Power. Be'lal? He was just another Blademaster. There is no proof for him being the best. Perrin is better than Galad? GAWYN is better than Galad? Okay....<br /><br />drunkentrolloc: Bruce Lee was tough as nails? So was Clint Eastwood. Actually, Clint would have kicked his ass. The Man with no Name never lost a fight in the movies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Also, of all the ones you showed, the Chucker was the only one to distinguish himself in competiton. The rest are actors with Martial Arts training. Wesley snipes is the same thing.<br /><br />Whew! I'm back, baby!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 18:23:33
subject: <b>the top two</b>
body:
i think it boils down to lan and galad<br /><br />lan would beat hamman gaiden 3 out of 3<br />on his way to myrlle he went through any shadow spawn that came in his way without shinerean back up.<br />he is the best warder swordsman<br />when he was at myrlle camp everyones jaw dropped at his display and how long it went on<br />nyneave has never seen lan in a battle situation like she saw galad<br />lan has more experience <br />and rj comment is ambigious(sp)<br /><br />i think all galads good points have been covered b4<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 12:37:02
subject: <b>Valda?</b>
body:
Valda is a pompous moron, that's also stated by Pedron Niall, though probably not a direct quote.<br /><br />Valda probably got the sword from a dead Warder, after burning his Aes Sedai as a witch or something.  That alone would make it prized, since it would symbolize his greatest accomplishment as a Whitecloak. And he wouldn't feel ashamed about carrying it because he is, after all, a pompous moron.<br />


created: 2002-11-20 00:16:22
subject: <b>uh, GG...</b>
body:
Bruce Lee took on many, many challengers, and would 'feel out the guy, and then the fight would be over...like that'. He took on people of various skill levels, and had to fight masters of wing chun and beat them in order to be allowed to teach the martial art in the USA. In addition, you can tell by the speed, power, and focus he was capable of (the one inch punch as an example), that he was far faster and likely more dangerous, than say Chuck Norris. The only way Clint Eastwood would kick Bruce's ass would likely be with a gun. What about Jet Li? Just because he hasn't gone to competitions and wiped the floor with everyone doesn't mean that he is still a terribly dangerous fighter.<br /><br />Anyway, another guy to consider (and someone mentioned above), is Elyas. I'm not sure if the info is correct, but the quiz over his character on this site says that he 'taught Lan swordmastery'. If that is true, that says something about his fighting ability. If not, he still talks about killing warders like it's just bad business and that he doesn't like doing it, in an offhand way. I've always seen Elyas as WoT's Wyatt Earp, myself.<br /><br />Also, another point to consider, is that Elyas is the only wolfbrother warder that we know of, and Lan is the only king and certified blademaster warder that we know of, other than Rand. Being a warder helps fighting ability, as does being a wolfbrother, so that could definetly give an edge. Any other warders that also are distinctified as blademasters haven't been mentioned yet or are dead (likely backstabbed by the filthy little prick Gawyn!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-20 04:00:07
subject: <b>Swordsman in Sable</b>
body:
I am curious as to where you have obtaned this information pertaining to Bruce Lee. I, personally, have never heard of him taking on 'all challengers'. I have read his book, my dad fought for the wrold champoinship in Kickboxing and my Uncle was a contender in heavyweight boxing at one time. We know our stuff. Also, if his movie is to be believed, he LOST that challenge and had his back broken for his troubles.<br /><br />I dont seriously think that Clint could beat Lee in a fight, I was merely illustrating that Bruce Lee was an actor. He was by no means the greatest fighter of our time, or ANY time. He was a martial arts actor.  People who think this are misinformed worshippers of popular media. Ask any fighting analyst and they will tell you the same. Give me a staff and have men that weigh 100 lbs rush in at me one at a time. I don't give them very good odds. How did Eddie Murphy put it? &quot;Be in a movie with me, make me the star and I'll whoop your ass.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 13:03:15
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I've watched a few biographies on the Discovery Channel (which is where I got the quote from, one his former directors spoke of his challenges as such), as well as seen the movie. You forget to mention that in the movie, he recovers from his back injury and beats the guy that beat him in under a minute. Whether or not the movie is just a totally made up lie (as you might be suggesting), you can tell by performance in movies, at least raw ability. For example, compare Wesly Snipes to Jet Li, or Jet Li to Keeanu Reeves(sp?), or Chuck Norris to Bruce Lee or whoever in terms of speed and accuracy. The proof is in the pudding. If you are lightning fast and crisp when having to perfrom, it won't be quite as good, but not a far cry from how you perform in a real combat situation. Whether or not, say, Jet Li's raw fighting ability could match up to Chuck Norris' fighting experience, they are both dangerous people.<br /><br />Another example is for movies with swordplay. If you have ever watched lone wolf and cub, you cannot deny that Wakayama is an excellent swordsman, even if he is an actor. Throughout the movie series he does things that are near ubelieveable, like for example a swordstroke that is so fast that literally, if you blink, it's already done and back in his scabbard. It's unlikely that many swordsmen can perform a stroke like that, with a degree of accuracy. So, just because he's an actor and hasn't officially proven himself doesn't mean he's a dangerous opponent.<br /><br />And another example, just because shaolin monks don't enter tournaments doesn't mean that they aren't dangerous. Just don't put so much stock into tournament performance and that if you don't go to 'em, that you have little fighting ability.<br /><br />I'll definetly say this though: if you got Bruce Lee on the ground, he'd almost definetly be toast. So, if he were to enter the UFC, he would be meat just like any fighter that has little to no grappling experience. But, in a standup fight, he would be pretty dangerous. I'm not saying Bruce Lee was one of the greatest fighters ever, but I will say that he was a dangerous enough person <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-20 19:34:54
subject: <b>GG</b>
body:
My rationale for putting Gawyn ahead of Galad is that Gawyn has much, much more to live for than Galad does. Gawyn would be the more desperate fighter, and would take &quot;cheap shot&quot; as necessary as someone above me mentioned.<br /><br />Also, I put Perrin ahead of Galad because he would probably kill him if they were in a fight (that is the whole premise of the ranking, after all)! This list and discussion has evolved from only swordsmen to other types of fighters. Are you suggesting that Galad would kill Perrin if they got into a fight? I doubt it. Hell, Mat beat him when he was sick and Perrin is at least as dangerous as Mat. Or had you forgotten about that little fight they had?????<br /><br />About Be'lal, I haven't read the Guide in awhile but I recalled that in the brief section about Be'lal it mentioned that he was a dinstinguished bladesmaster. Because of this, I considered that he may be better than the bladesmasters of this Age.<br /><br />Mainly, I was just trying to throw a slant into the usual rankings and introduce someone new.<br /><br />It pissed me off to see you come in and post to just to criticize others' postings and thoughts. Why don't you come up with your own thoughts rather than take shots at everyone else?<br /><br />You claim Vashti shows his incompentence once again. Come on. You know he isn't incompetent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-21 13:29:59
subject: <b>Galad's Character</b>
body:
I agree that Valda is probably one of the blademasters and probably a darn good one.<br /><br />I personally think Galad is one of the best swordsmen out there - because of the description we've had of his fighting. Remember that when he was in the tower EVERYONE came out to see him practice - not just the flighty young Greens.<br /><br />His skill and weakensses will be based on his character. He never does anything wrong. We could expect this to extend to his use of the sword as much as possible, he probably won't make many &quot;mistakes&quot; but that could be the biggest mistake, his inability to improvise to win in a duel. It's all his character.<br /><br /><br />Sorry if this has been pointed out already on this post, I didn't take the time to read all 48 responses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Feet spread to maintain balance on a windy deck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 09:49:57
subject: <b>The Void</b>
body:
The void is probably a determining fACTOR IN WHO IS THE BEST. Neither Galad or Gawyn uses it, because we can assume they would share tips etc, and we know Gawyn doesnt. We also know that the Void allows better concentration and less fealing of pain. If both Rand and Lan (who is the best) choose to use it, there is defo an advantage for them. Thus I think Gawyn and Galad limit themselves.<br /><br />Also Mat is not as good as Lan and he knows it. Although Mat always understates his ability, I think he truly knows this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 16:43:33
subject: <b>A couple of responses.</b>
body:
Sword in Sable: I never denied that Bruce Lee was a good fighter, he would whip me anyway, but he is certianly not the best, nor even one of the best of all time. BTW, Wesley Snipes has trained in MA since he was a boy. His moves look damn good on camera, too, so why is he not considered a great fighter? Bruce Lee was a Martial artist, yes, but he was an actor and therefore not one of the most dangerous men who ever lived, as some weakminded people think.<br /><br />P FLOYD: Go and reread tDR and tSR for Gawyn's thoughts on Galad. Galad would kill Gawyn if he had to and I don't think it would be much trouble for him as Gawyn thinks something pretty similar to it to himself. Unless you forgot about that?????? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Since you have zero proof to back yourself up, I'll ignore you from now on. I am sick of having to tell people that they have the facts wrong, though nobody is perfect. I'm not going to get into it any deeper.<br /><br />Especially if you think that Perrin would beat Galad. That is just, well, stupidity. Nice try on the p!ssing, though. A few more years and you might have something <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Come up with my own thoughts? Excuse me? Well, if you don't know who I am or you havent read some of my theories and ideas, well, I guess I cant hold it against you.Not everybody knows me.<br /><br />Just the hardcore WoT fans that <i>know</i> what they're talking about.<br /><br />Also, Vashti is not imcompetent, it's more of a rivalry between the two of us since wee seem to have two distinctly different viewpoints on some subjects. I also caught him once in a tangle and we've been trying to do the same to each other ever since. I am in no way responsible to you as far as what I think or feel about the series or anyone on this site. I always back my comments or theories up and know more or less what I am talking about. Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 16:51:27
subject: <b>re: the Void</b>
body:
I agree with what you say about the Void giving a definite advantage, but why do you say that Gawyn and Galad don't use it? I'd always assumed that it was a trick of concentration known to Warders and blademasters. I can't imaging the deadly grace and fluidity in battle of a Warder without the supreme concentration that is the void. <br /><br />And anyway, is the Void in itself really a factor? Isn't it that the best are good enough to assume the Void, rather than knowledge of the Void dictating who is best?<br /><br />Veering back on topic I'd have to say that in terms of who's sword skills impressed me the most, it has to be Aram. No other character has gone from a complete ignorance of *any* form of weapons or elementary fighting to a competent swordsman in such a short time. I mean, Rand already knew how to fight, and use the void, before Lan started teaching him.<br /><br />I have to agree with the comments about Galad as well - he is up there with the best of the swordsmen but he would still lose against many of the characters we've met. He's too damn honorable and a gutter fight to the death is *not* the same thing as a duel in the Warders' practice ground. Remember Lan beat Ryne even though he wasn't as good a swordsman (at the time).<br /><br />So what was the question again? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> It all depends on whether you want to rank people based on whether we're talking about just sword fighting (Mat and quarterstaffs...), who's best 'on paper' or who would win in a real-world fight. (Because that would usually be a channeler or Isam anyway)<br /><br />In short, Rand or Lan. Rand has the youth, Lan has the experience. And if they ever have a proper fight then RJ has strayed away from his plot waaay to far, so we'll never really know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-22 23:01:48
subject: <b>Alrighty</b>
body:
Well it was probably misleading of me to have Wesley Snipes and Keeanu Reeves both being compared to Jet Li. I simply meant that you can tell from movie performance that one has more raw talent than the other. I definetly don't think that Mr. Snipes and Mr. Reeves are on comparable levels, as Snipes could turn Reeves into hamburger, but I'll say they both look worse when compared to Jet Li. <br /><br />For the record and further clarification, imo, in comparison Snipes is slower, less versatile, and less agile, but most of that can be attributed to his size/strength. Reeves is kinda sloppy because he simply hasn't trained long enough.<br /><br />You were coming off to me as saying that Bruce Lee and other martial arts movie stars as being 'just an actor with some training', and thus not being truely competant fighters off the screen, as well as their screen performance not being even a minimally credible indication to their real ability, as you inferred with the Clint Eastwood and Eddie Murphey bits, whether they were serious or not. Glad things are cleared up though. <br /><br />But eh, I'll suggest a little more tact and less sarcasm, unless you like people getting offended and reacting as such. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean you should dislike them, though yeah these forums can be frustrating sometimes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-24 15:40:47
subject: <b>Whatever dude....</b>
body:
You're full of yourself. Take a step back. It's only WOT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 10:24:43
subject: <b>Whoops</b>
body:
Didn't think anyone would take my last post so seriously.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However the important thing was not the degree of skill, but the characters/persons style of choice, im my previous comparison.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To green gaidin: calling someone weak-minded because they do not share your point of view, is narrow-minded. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />By the way, I don't think it's quite so obvious that IF Mat could outbest Galad with his staff, and Lan beats Mat.. that Lan would beat Galad.<br /><br />I mean.. just because B beats A, and C beats B, it does not always mean that C will beat A. Right? Hope you understand what my point was. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />-dt<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />


created: 2002-12-02 21:18:15
subject: <b>birgitte and more</b>
body:
A quick point about the comparison people make with birgitte and galad at the &quot;thug fight&quot;. Firstly the ability of archers improves dramatically with numbers. Secondly, an archer in that type of fight can only be as good as how fast they draw. If memory serves me they are extremely outnumbered in a street, which means every shot would hit but show little impact on a crowd. Somebody with even half the ability with a sword compared to birgittes bow would rip the thugs to pieces. Simply wade in swing and slash and several are down, before the bowoman again draws.<br />Now for the real part of this post: The most dangerous, no holds barred every ability included.<br /><br />1. Rand/Shaidar Haran/Moridin<br />2. Forsaken and every other strong channeler<br />3. Other channelers<br />4. Mat (when his luck is in, has amulet of none channeling)<br />5. Perrin (pattern won't let him die, call wolves for re-inforcements)<br />6. The Gholam (all the channelers can just travel away)<br />7. Lan (Hard case, remember he disappeared for about 6 months and just trained and killed)<br />8. Luc/Isam etc<br />9. Gawyn (he's currently on the brink of insanity...and he fought aiel, hes got to be good)<br />10. pro rhuarc or someone<br /><br /><br />Just SWORD fighting ability, with no cheap shots etc. to first blood<br /><br />1. Lan<br />2. Galad<br />3. Rand<br />4. Gawyn<br />5. The rest of the blademasters<br />6. Aram<br /><br /><br />Fight to the death with a WEAPON, no specialties<br /><br />1. Birgitte (one shot your dead from 5 paces to 200)<br />2. Lan<br />3. Mat<br />4. Rand<br />5. Gawyn (remember hes close to insane)<br />6. Galad (kick dirt in his eyes and he would stand their and complain about how &quot;that isn't right&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />7. Rhuarc (he's aiel?)<br />8. Perrin (he has the shortest weapon and it ain't to good for defense)<br /><br />The rest of the blademasters etc.....<br />Aram isn't included because hes only fought trollocs... And how long has it been since even a mydraal was dangerous to one of these characters.<br /><br />Anyway thats my two cents...<br /><br />(p.s. has anyone ever thought of giving an aiel a warder cloak?.....)<br />


created: 2002-12-20 06:42:13
subject: <b>Your all forgeting someone</b>
body:
Honestly this is my opinion on the rank of the greatest fighters excluding archers and channeling and nonhumans to an extent.<br /><br />1. Lan (c'mon read the story about how he grew up, has anyone else grown up like that ? NO) 10/10<br /><br />2. Isam/Luc (so far he's only really proven to be an assassin but what about the two rivers battles of killing his own myrdrawl (what was with that ? ) but i recken he's underestimated with a sword) 9.8/10<br /><br />3. Abel Cauthan  (see below) 9.5/10<br /><br />4. Mat (He beat Galad AND Gawyn when sick, but remember he said his dad was the best in two rivers therefore better than Mat) 9.45/10<br /><br />5. Rand (wont bother) 9.4/10<br /><br />6. That lord Toram Riatin (the guy that rand didnt actually beat in the woods outside of Carhiren just before the mordeth stab) 9.39/10<br /><br />7. Aram 9.2/10 (He pressed hard blademaster master (tam) meaning he was almost beating him, although you can debate that Tam is getting old, i personally dont believe that matters too much, look at Lan)<br /><br />8. Tam Al,thor 9.15/10 (blademaster)<br /><br />9. Eamon Valda 9/10 (blademaster)<br /><br />10. Galad 8.9/10<br /> <br />11. Gawyn 8.89/10 (remember Gawyn and Galad are NOT blademasters)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 05:41:50
subject: <b>Just a point about Rand beating Turoc</b>
body:
It did seem far-fetched that with almost no training Rand was able to beat a High-Blood Blademaster. However, let's not forget that Rand it the literal rebirth of the origional Dragon, and that unlike most reborn souls, Rand seems to have retained some aspects of that previous life. Aside from the crazy split personality in his head, this is apparent in such things as Rand's being able to draw because that is a tallent the dragon had, and his humming while looking at beautiful women. So, while Rand only had a little training in this life, he had the latent reflexes of a very experienced (and possibly 500+ years old) Blademaster his his head. That is why when he started training hard, he quickly became very good.


created: 2004-02-20 00:27:23
subject: <b>how fighting peoples rank, from my viewpoint</b>
body:
Heroes (faces, no heels) only, and no unfair advantages i.e. power usage or cheap shots.<br />1. rand-lan-rhuarc<br />2.mat: when he's being extremely lucky, i don't know how anyone with a brain and a keyboard, can even CONSIDER anyone else even having a snowball's chance in hell against mat.<br />3. GAlad. Lan once comments in New spring, that for a single swordsman, no matter how good, to even SURVIVE in a fight against 4 or more other peoples, is basically impossible. therefore for Galad to just whoop up upon a legion of enemies that way indicates UNGODLY skill. I mean C'mon the guy was SURROUNDED!!!!!!! anyone of those guys could have easily have stabbed him in the back if he wasn't like SUPER SUPER SUPER SUPER CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i am sick of peoples rankins being biased against Galad due to personal dislike for the guy!!!!!<br /> 4. Perrin, i mean Cmon how often do you see a guy with an axe, however well made this axe might be, consistently prevail in DIFFICULT fights against peoples with swords and such??????? ( not to mention the wold senses and such)<br />5. Elyas, he escaped from an aes sedai place, after being suspected as being a Darkfriend, I mean the place was CRAWLIN with warders and such!!!!!!!!! and he TAUGHT lan and trained HIM to become a blademaster. not to mention he also gots wolf senses.<br />6. Gareth Bryne ( i'm actually thinking he will probably turn out to have been a blademaster all along), Tam Al'Thor, Abel Cauthon, and various other hicks (Valda included) they might not fight in the series, but i mean hey they've all been masters of their various weapons for YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they will have had ample opportunity to become deadly in their respective weapon fields.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 09:32:14
subject: <b>Inresponse to &quot;Pretty Good Find&quot; by Deamione</b>
body:
I have nothing to add to this post on the fighters of the Wheel of time. Everything that needs to be said has. To the nth degree.<br /><br />I just have a clericle problen to fix<br /><br />Deamione posted:<br />&quot;And although they had constant rebellions &amp; uprisings, the Seanchan continent certainly doesn't have anything like the Blight in which to keep entire countries &amp; armies honed.&quot;<br /><br />Correction in the BWB it stats that Seanchan does have a blight they just killed off most of the Trollocks and such and most of the DF's have been eradicated. With the exception of some Drakar.<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-22 16:23:37
subject: <b>Swordsman Rocks</b>
body:
I agree with Swordsman in Sable,s opinion of Gawyn. Gawyn is a pain in the arse. I'd like to see  Hanlon take out Gawyn in aswordfight.


created: 2002-11-07 11:47:00
subject: <b>Egwene's Wall Dream</b>
body:
I always tied Egwene's wall dream to her frustration at being able to access Rand's dreams.<br /><br />And there are more than two significant seats or thrones traditionally belonging to women in the series: Elayne's throne in Andor, the Amyrlin Seat's chair, the Empress' Crystal Throne (note that recent theory about the Empress possible longevity)... <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 11:53:10
subject: <b>very interesting</b>
body:
but do not forget Eladia's fortelling that the white tower will be whole again and stronger than ever.<br /><br />not being pro or con just mentioning white tower stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Choosin' to be Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 12:24:49
subject: <b>Hrm, intrestnig theory</b>
body:
It could very well be, but I side more with Burr that it would be Eladia not Egween in the chair.<br /><br />about <i>but do not forget Eladia's foretelling that the white tower will be whole again and stronger than ever.</i><br /><br />Well, if Rand unites the tower, and joins them with the Asha'men, it would fulfill both halves of that foretelling. The tower would be whole (all Aes Sedai would be back in one group) and they would be stronger then ever (they would have the Asha&#8217;men with them). <br /><br />A nice little theory, but even with the evidence you put forth, it's RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 13:11:40
subject: <b>Rand shall stand before the Amyrillin and know her wrath!</b>
body:
I am not one hundred percent sure how this fits in but there is also Elaida's fortelling that included that the dragon shall face the Amyrillin and know her wrath.  <br /><br />The problem I have with this hypothesis is twofold.  First, Rand has no interest currently in taking over the WT.  Second, Morgase <i>was</i> murderously angry at Rand because of the rumours she heard of him.  At the least she was <i>very</i> angry at him.  <br /><br />You may be correct, but I think I will leave this a RAFO for now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 14:17:11
subject: <b>Could be Elaida</b>
body:
You're right that Elayne wasn't really ready to commit murder. And she would be the rightful owner of the Amrylin Seat if Egwene and the rebels were defeated. And the Asha'man and Aes Sedai do have to join together the way they were before the breaking, although I always thought that Logain would end up being the Tamrylin. Rand would still be the one responible for unseating Elaida. This certainly seems possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 16:21:57
subject: <b>The owner is Morgase</b>
body:
When Rand sat in the Lion Throne, Morgase was still legally the Queen as she was until she swore the oath of abdication in CoS.  Immediately after he is seen sitting there talking to Bashere, we cut to Morgase's PoV, where she is thinking woe to Gaebril or ANY man who thought he could sit on the Lion Throne.  Rand will merely know the Amyrlin Seat is angry.  If he takes over the Tower, she wouldn't be Amyrlin Seat any more.  Egwene in her typical hypocrite mode, will be angry at Rand for accepting freely given (if ta'veren inspired) oaths of fealty (the Aes Sedai don't see themselves as forced, whatever Taim said), which she herself acquired through blackmail and extortion.  If Logain is loyal to Rand, all they have to do is expose Egwene's deception about the Red Ajah, and neither they nor any of the sisters whose trust was abused will take Egwene seriously, especially if it comes out that she countenanced the lie in order to foment a war between sisters to secure dictatorial powers for herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 17:15:25
subject: <b>Great!</b>
body:
I really hope this theory is right, that would be fantastic. I have to say I assumed that the prophercy meant that Rand would have to bow to Egwene as he felt her wrath (perhaps he gets the male a'dam, Egwene saves him, and then berates him while he is at a disadvantage, or makes him swear to obey her or she won't take it off). Egwene is full of herself and has no respect for men, so that is the type of thing she'd do. Of course your theory is soooo much better, that Egwene (or Elaida, but I hope Egwene), because Rand effectively replaced her. Maybe LTT can convince Rand to balefire Egwene? Good job!


created: 2002-11-07 19:48:01
subject: <b>ONE DREAM NOT MENTIONED</b>
body:
Egwene has a dream that she confronts Rand. She is backed up by all types of female channelers, including Seanchan.<br />I think when Elaida foretells the tower will be stronger then ever it is because egwene will bring the wise ones and the wise women and the seanchan channelers.<br /><br />Finally Nicola has a foretelling saying that the guardians and servants will balance each other, as if they are not yet unified. I wish I had my books with me so I could make direct quotes.


created: 2002-11-07 20:20:56
subject: <b>Prejudice</b>
body:
It will be interesting to see how the Aes Sedai react when the Taint appears to be gone.  Where will be the foundation of their antagonism?  What will be the purpose of the Red Ajah?<br /><br />I suspect that there will be a lot of sniffing, hair tossing, braid-pulling and looking down their noses.  Jordan is pretty determined to have women never admit they're wrong.<br /><br />What's kinda neat is, that the biggest bitch of them all, Nynaeve, is also the only Aes Sedai who knows what the Taint feels like, having channeled Saidin (sorta...through the *angreal).  She also knows what it's like now, without it.  Will getting laid regularly continue in her evolution to a human being, and she'll actually be helpful?  We'll see.


created: 2002-11-07 20:48:17
subject: <b>Occam's Razor</b>
body:
&quot;he took it from Rahvin, or at the least Morgase. Morgase definitely wasn't angry, and Rahvin is a man.&quot;<br /><br />We need to use Occam's Razor here and look at the simplest explanation.  Morgase was murderously angry when she found out that Rand had taken her seat.  I can't think of any quotes off of the top of my head, but I can recall when Perrin told Morgase that Rand meant to offer the throne to Elayne.  Morgase was incensed.  And this is not the only time she has fumed over Rand being there.<br /><br />Since Morgase is the simplest and most likely explanation, I think it needs to be our go-to theory for now.<br /><br />Your theory has some creative connections that make for an interesting story-line, but it is a little more exotic, and as such, I do not think it should be the primary explanation for the murderously angry quote<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 21:13:29
subject: <b>YES DIE EGWENE DIE</b>
body:
Rand shall know Egwene's anger. Wow what a shock. I think she spent about 5 books calling him woolhead or something inane like that.<br /><br />The trouble with WoT is that there is no real shocks and suprises. <br /><br />I had the feeling ever since Moiraine said in EOTW &quot;She could be Amyrlin one day&quot; that Egwene is headed for that seat.<br /><br />For RJ to turn around and have Gawyn (the biggest male idiot of WoT) and Egwene beheaded and for Elaida to lead the WT until - 1) Thoms letter 2) Rand's kidnapping and 3) the 51 AS in the Black Tower - brings her down would be unexpected and exciting. <br /><br />And especially getting rid of one of WoT's 'sniffing' men-bashing woman would be BRILLIANT.<br /><br />Rand may arrive with Logain and the Ashaman. Appoint Logain as the new Tamyrlin and there he becomes the 2nd most powerful man in the world - as per Min's vision.<br /><br />But alas I think Egwene will go on bashing Rand to the end. Poor bloke   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-07 22:58:39
subject: <b>Uhh...maybe...</b>
body:
I somehow just don't see this happening. If you discount the throne thing as related to Morgase, there isn't too much to back it up, and story-wise, the White Tower would be way more interesting if Rand isn't in control of it. If he was, it'd just be, oh yes, Rand's in charge again. The dynamics with Egwene as Amyrlin would be much better. Also, can you see the Aes Sedai just agreeing to have a MAN in charge? I don't think so....<br />Not to mention that Dreamers only dream what <i>may</i> happen, so we cannot say for certain that all of Egwene's dreams will come true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 00:22:46
subject: <b>Lots of maybe</b>
body:
I really don't want to commit to any one side when it comes to who is going to be pissed about having her chair sat in. I find myself like that a lot with theory lately. When I first started coming here, I used to vote yay or nay on the poll of the day, but more often then not now, I vote undecided (yes I am one of the goofy few). Why? Because as this theory board is excellent in exploring every detail, most things can be taken so many ways. It's all so RAFO! I am sooo looking forward to book 10, lets all pray together that it ties off some of these threads RJ has been weaving. <br /><br />The only reply I have for anybody here is Vashti, and <i>&quot;Will getting laid regularly continue in her evolution to a human being, and she'll actually be helpful?&quot;</i><br /><br />Now I have to assume your making a joke, especially with the getting laid bit, because Nynaeve is perhaps one of the most acomplished Aes Sedai there is, right up there with Moirane as far as we have read. And I only mention Moirane, because she has killed two Forsaken so far (one albiet temporarly). Nynaeve has these things under her belt:<br /><br />1) Wisdom of her village at age twentysomething<br />2) Learned balefire without being taught<br />3) Had a gun fight with a Forsaken and won (Moggy in Tanchico)<br />4) Learned enough of TAR on her own to capture Moggy later<br />5) Torched and distracted Rahvin long enough for Rand to wax his ass<br />6) Strong enough to help clense Saidin<br />7) Is keeping Lan alive (come on everybody, how bad would it have been if Lan died?)<br /><br />She is an excellent tracker, she stand up to people (Saildar Aes Sedai), heck even Birgitte acknowledges the courage of Nynaeve, though Nyna doesn't think she has any<br /><br />As far as being human goes, well I argue she is one of the most human of the bunch. The one thing I love about Nyna, is that she WILL NOT admit it when she is wrong, not even to herself! How much more human do you get? <br /><br />I really do love Nyna, she is my fav char, I suppose that means I dig the same kind of girls Lan does <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />I know you were prob just making a joke, and I have done my trademark ramble on about an unrelated topic on theory board <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />. What was this theory about anyway?<br /><br />Oh yeah, Rand being leader of the Aes Sedai. Well reading Ruriha Sedai, I have to agree with her. No way the women would stand for that. As has been shown time and time again, Aes Sedai do not back to anybody, and Egween (or Elida for that matter) is Aes Sedai to the core.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 00:57:33
subject: <b>*shrug*</b>
body:
Sure.<br /><br />yes, she is all those things you mention.  She has also been a harridan, nth degrees beyond stubborn, refusing to admit she's wrong, not very steadfast with the truth, a bigot, and a female chauvinist pig.<br /><br />Her block cleared up RIGHT after her marriage.  Jordan was fairly demonstrative in her consumation of the wedding, so I presume it was her first time.  She also has been more reasonable, more open-minded, more considerate and less of a jackass.<br /><br />to me, this constitutes 'continued evolution as a human being'. <br /><br />And the point that this happens is pretty clearly marked. <br /><br />Eh?


created: 2002-11-08 02:11:46
subject: <b>Point made, I concede</b>
body:
But about her refusing to be wrong, well, at least admit it has been some of the most humorous parts of her development.<br />


created: 2002-11-08 02:14:07
subject: <b>Whoops, above ^ was me</b>
body:
I came here with my chat face on, my bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 10:43:48
subject: <b>Ahem, Nynaeve isn't leading the white Tower</b>
body:
Okay, I like this theory, and I hope Rand does lead the white tower, or at least have a strong share of the control.  In all likelyhood, he will probably serve the same role as he does now though.  He is more of a figurehead for the Ashaman, and Taim/Logain are the leaders.  LTT was the Tamyrlin Seat, and (I'm not sure) the Hall of Servants was roughly in the same area as the White Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 11:42:00
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
That puts alot more clarity on that &quot;chair&quot; and &quot;murdurously angry&quot;.  The Lion throne just didn't fit.  And this ties in with those other prophesies.


created: 2002-11-08 14:04:47
subject: <b>The lion throne is too small</b>
body:
This may be splitting hairs, but I don't believe Rand actually sat on the Lion Throne.  In fact it is mentioned several times that the throne was built so that any man who tried to sit in it would be very uncomfortable.  And the dream explicitly states Rand sits in the chair.  Of course these sort of visions are not literal, but along the same lines, Rand never claimed the throne of Andor either.  It seems clear to me that the dream implies a concious and deliberate taking of the chair (or Seat as the case may be).<br /><br />I think this theory holds some excellent possiblilities.  Perhaps not in the exact way described (I think it would be Elaida who would be murderously angry), but it certainly gets a gold star from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 14:11:54
subject: <b>rand lead the white tower? unlikely.</b>
body:
if u remember the short story prequel &quot;the strike at shaynol ghoul (spelling, books elsewhere),&quot; LTT at the height of his power did not command a majority and had to lead a covert strike against the DO cuz his main opponent (a woman)in AS hierarchy swayed the AS to her strategy. so, even the dragon &quot;born,&quot; operating in an age when omnipotent women where used to working alongside omnipotent men, had opposition to his leadership. i can't imagine the arrogant ball-cutters (a little harsh but somewhat justified) of topical randland even considering listening to a male AS. perhaps logain's legions &amp; their bonded AS, rand's &quot;dragonsworn AS,&quot; cadsuane's AS and their bonded ashaman will start the process that male &amp; female channelers have much in common and will complement, not threaten, each other's abilities. i always had a suspicion that that was why the &quot;cross-bonding&quot; was going on. flame away.


created: 2002-11-08 14:43:04
subject: <b>Gotta work out the towers</b>
body:
There are two. But in theory there are really 4.<br /><br />The White Tower -- Tar Valon as we have seen it and read about it.<br /><br />The Black Tower -- The Asha'man<br /><br />The Salidar Contingent -- Their version of the White Tower<br /><br />And the Tower to Come -- The Reunification.<br /><br />Actually, that's another tower...the melding of the Black and the White Towers, and the reunification of the Female White Tower.<br /><br />Rand is already head of the Black Tower.  We have seen so many dreams and other situations (Egwene's Accepted Test) that puts Egwene at the head of the female White Tower.<br /><br />What happens when they are all united?  There won't be any reason for them not to, with the Taint appearing to be gone. <br /><br />Nynaeve will likely be busy being Queen of New Malkier.  Elayne will be busy being the Queen of Andor (and Cairhien). <br /><br />We still have to figure out if Rand is going to survive or not.  So far the only hint we see of that is him striding off with a beggars' bowl (staff? can't remember).<br /><br />Logain....maybe. Suian and Elaida?  *snicker*  <br /><br />I figure the head of the United Ancient Tower will be either Logain, Egwene or Rand.  Hmm...maybe Narishma. But there are still way too many factors to work out before we see that. <br /><br />Actually, it'd be interesting to see what's up with Ajahs.  Did they have them in the AoL?  I don't have the Guide, so if this is in it, someone let me know please.  And sayonara to the Warders...perhaps.  I suspect we'll end up seeing male and female channelers paired up, rather than non-channeling warders. <br /><br />heh, one more thing that would be fascinating...not counting Rand...are any of the Warders capable of channeling?  I don't mean the new crop.  All kinds of rules are broken now.  That'd be kinda wild.


created: 2002-11-08 15:37:41
subject: <b>The Dragon does not belong to any specific society</b>
body:
<br />I think that in the AoL, their WT was just a kind of Church anyone who could channel was part of, in the same manner as what Egwene says about all woman channeling who should be somehow linked to the WT.<br />That will just be it, except that the WT will also be open to men.<br />By being able to channel, Rand will also be connected to the WT, but he won't be himself AS, just as he doesn't want to be king of any land (he is looking for someone to replace him in Illian and Tear).<br />


created: 2002-11-08 15:51:31
subject: <b>not impossible</b>
body:
In fact, it's quite plausible. The point on which I would differ is the first one you make. The chair could be a metaphor for Elayne's throne, as one shouldn't necessarily take a prophetic Dream literally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 15:53:40
subject: <b>*psst* (nitpicking)</b>
body:
Nynaeve broke her blosk BEFORE her marriage. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> While she was drowning. (In Salidar she said she doesn't fight the impossible, can't breath under water and so on, and *BEHOLD* that is how she broke her block.) It was after that that she and Lan headed to Sea Folk ship and she wanted to marry him before he could run away.<br /><br />On foreshadowings of Egwene becoming the Amyrlin... Well, I have long wondered about those. It was a useless thing to say, at that time, since Siuan was still very young, not likely to die any time soon, and deposing of the Amyrlin is not very usual... They don't seem to retire, either, as far as I know.<br /><br />Anyways, neither do I believe Rand will head the Tower. Before TG he's to busy, afterwards, if he's alive, I would believe he would like to be away from the swirls of power, retiring to his father's farm to tend sheep or something like the (now wouldn't his lady loves just love that...) And United Tower (as opposed to BT and WT) isn't likely to happen before TG either, if ever. Too much bickering...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-09 10:58:58
subject: <b>the Tower, AoL</b>
body:
Even people who couldn't channel were part of the White Tower. <br /><br />and Rand currently IS the head of the Black Tower.  Taim runs it on a day-to-day basis, but his title is M'hael -- &quot;Teacher&quot;.   Not 'leader'<br /><br />And Suiane is not so young.  About 40, maybe?  And since the Aiel War, there have been numerous Amyrlins.  That's part of the 'foulness' which Cadsuane mentioned. <br /><br />In any event some of Egwene's dreams and foretellings have come true regarding the Amyrlin Seat.  She IS the Amyrlin (at least of the rebels), and as depicted in one dream, she is without having ever touched the Oath Rod.


created: 2002-11-11 09:06:28
subject: <b>One more dream/vision/prophecy etc...</b>
body:
to be taken into account is the one in which egwene sees gawyn choosing between kissing her and snapping her neck. I believe that this relates to the battle for the white tower, and egwene's dream that if she will die if her rescuer does not arrive in time i.e. i believe gawyn, not rand to be that rescuer- his choice will decide who wins (as in fact it did when siuan was overthrown).<br /><br />  So, if you remove that possibiity (i.e. egwene is so grateful/constrained she has to give rand control) as a means by which rand seizes the white tower, it seems to me there is just no real way in which he could do it. A all out war between the white and black towers? The forsaken would kill themselves laughing at that kind of weakening of the anti-DO power base. Besides, there is this whole thing about Rand becoming a beggar as some others have pointed out, which doen't really seem to be an image you'ld associate with the head of the white tower.<br /><br />Don't forget also the black tower looks like its heading for its own internal war, so egwene (who i'm sure will eventually win control of the white tower) is soon likely to be in a better position to take the black tower than vice versa.<br /><br />In conclusion, no idea whose chair it was, but Rand, while he will almost certainly have future dealings with egwene (over bonded AS for a start) will not come to control the white tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 11:49:47
subject: <b>You're All Wrong</b>
body:
If you'll excuse me while i change the subject back to the original one<br />I think that the throne that rand is going to sit on is the Crystal throne<br />it was proved many times above why it can't be the lion throne or the Amerlin chair<br />but nothing was said about the crystal throne<br /><br />Just something to keep you pondering<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />  May you find good hunting and shes to give you many cubs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 18:01:18
subject: <b>Ahh Vashti</b>
body:
Actually m'hael does mean leader, and not teacher.<br />As u might recall, in tPoD Gedwyn and Rochaid were ranked as this-and-that m'hael, which meant Storm Leader and Attack Leader.  (Rand comments on how Storm Leader seems to fit the weather, if you recall).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 18:33:19
subject: <b>its pretty good</b>
body:
The one thing I don't like is that youseem to assume that Egwene is extremely anti-Rand. I think she'll have to come around and swear the white tower to him when she's taken it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 19:40:33
subject: <b>Lironj</b>
body:
thanks, I missed that. <br /><br />however, I still think it's clear (except to those Taim has perverted) that Rand is the leader of the Black Tower.  Taim takes orders from Rand, not the other way around. <br /><br />A comment about Egewne:<br /><br />In Winter's Heart, when meeting Elayne in TAR, she says, &quot;I know you love him; I love him, too.&quot;  <br /><br />I've argued that they don't trust each other, but they DO care for each other.  But I don't think Egwene would get 'murderously angry'.


created: 2002-11-12 10:36:42
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
To me, this is a really appealing theory. Rand leading the WT would just be great.  I think, if that were to happen, he (Rand) would be the leader, but also seperate and apart. The day to day leadership would fall to the Amyrlin and the Tamyrlin. Kind of a malefemale joint leadership. The word 'Tamyrlin' wasn't dropped into the story by accident, and it's not a title they use in the BT either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 13:15:19
subject: <b>It has to be...........</b>
body:
I really do not think that it has anything to do with the white tower. I think it is the crystal throne. <br />we know how the seanchan treat the daughter of the nine moons and especially when she is on that chair. I think that rand will get to that chair, and she will be so &quot;murderously&quot; angry because to the seanchan rand is supposed to bow to the daughter of the nine moons.<br /><br />then again what do i know?


created: 2002-11-12 14:30:54
subject: <b>I think Rand <i>has</i> to lead the WT</b>
body:
<br /> We cartainly know that Rand will have future dealings with the WT as he will be the main dude in the fight against the DO. We've seen the Wheel create ways for him to lead other nations (Aiel: Chief of Chiefs, Sea Folf etc) and it is his destiny to lead the WORLD in this battle. Why create all this without letting him have control of possibly the most powerful (maybe behind the BT but <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> ) people in the world? Just doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br /> Whether he will actually lead the WT, or lead ANYONE for that matter we will have to RAFO (he might go into SG alone for examle), but I think it quite likely that he, along with Mat will direct/create the battle plan for the WT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 05:29:38
subject: <b>Maybe, maybe not</b>
body:
What about Sevvanna's Chief's Chair. Maybe she has one if she is acting as the Shaido Clan Chief and she really would be murderously angry.<br />I think Rand doesn't want to run the WT and will end up living happily ever after, as much as any man can with three wives to nag and bitch at him.


created: 2002-11-20 17:54:02
subject: <b>Bad title for Description of theory</b>
body:
OK, I don't think Rand will lead the White tower for very long, if he doesn't just hand it over to Egwene right away.  I really see Rand at the end of the series, getting to go off and lead the rest of his life rather anonymously.  With everything he's gone through, his reward would be rest.  Mat and Perrin are the ones who get to become great kings when all is said and done.<br /><br />A better title for the theory would be &quot;Rand will take control of white tower&quot;.  I really do think that it is necessary to bring the full support of the white tower while not being under the white tower.  I just don't see Rand submitting to ANY Amryllin, even his friend Egwene.


created: 2002-12-20 05:51:05
subject: <b>Cyndane</b>
body:
You could be right. I can imagine Egwene murderously angry when she doesnt get her tower or her way. She's a power hugry Biatch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-19 20:36:21
subject: <b>This theory...</b>
body:
is not that improbable now with CoT. Read CoT to find out more <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-13 09:27:30
subject: <b>Rand head of the WT-NEVER</b>
body:
MATRIMONY CAUTHON has it right. It is Morgase, murderously furious with Rand- she didn`t want Elayne within a thousand miles of him. BTH, thanks for the deletion.<br /><br />WINDSOR:  thank you for your support of Nynaeve. She is also my favorite character, along with Egwene and Mat.<br /><br />VASHTI:  Get over it for the Light`s sake!  BTW, is being &quot; female chauvinist pig&quot; worse than &quot;male chauvinist pig&quot;?  And where in the World has she been shown as a bigot?<br /><br />Now that CoT is out, it is obvious that the WT and BT will be allied for the Last Battle, which, IMO will be after Rand sheds his blood on the black rocks of SG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 23:04:34
subject: <b>It must be Cadsuane</b>
body:
She's obsessed with manners, so she probably gets pissed at him for using her personal toilet<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-17 18:02:21
subject: <b>Re: Very Interesting</b>
body:
Howdy. You make a valid point, but not a correct one. Elaida predicts, and I quote, &quot;The Tower will be whole again.&quot; NOT &quot;The White Tower will be whole again.&quot; I believe that what Elaida is referring to is not the reunification of the White Tower, but the Tower as it was in the Age of Legends - neither black nor white. Just the Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 15:26:37
subject: <b>The Chair</b>
body:
I have just always though the the chair in that dream was th sun throne and Colavere (spelling error i think) who was murderously angry. It fits her better than anyone else.


created: 2006-04-02 15:43:34
subject: <b>So Much Evidence For the WT</b>
body:
OK, maybe not solid evidence, but there are tons of things linking to the WT.  In CoT, Nicola apparently has a foretelling of Asha'Man attacking the WT.  There are, of course, the quotes about Amyrlin's anger and Rand sitting in a chair.  And as for Rand having no reason to go to the WT, remember that he has Semirhage now.  And she, of course, could tell him where Mesaana is, which could give him reason to try and root her out.<br /><br />As for everyone saying that him sitting in the chair in Egwene's dreams shouldn't be taken literally, I agree that most dreams shouldn't be taken literally, but this one shows him SITTING in the CHAIR.  How much simpler can you get?  No metaphors, no symbols, just SITTING.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 09:14:50
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Sorry, but that seems far fetched.  <br />Would Mesaana do as Caddy told her?  Or would they not have a contest of wills?  And if so, one of them, either Caddy or Mesaana would be controlled by the other.  We have seen no evidence of either one being out of control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 10:00:08
subject: <b>Mesaana is in the White Tower</b>
body:
We not seen any indication she may be with Cadsuane, although there has been some speculation she has been sneaking off to be with the rebel Aes Sedai. I think this is a good observation on your part, however, and think it's at least worth mentioning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 10:24:24
subject: <b>Sareitha is with Elyane</b>
body:
She was part of the embassy to Ebou Dar, I believe, and left there with Elyane, Nynaeve et al and has been in Caemlyn ever since.  <br /><br />I don't recall her meeting Cadsuane at any point<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 10:37:12
subject: <b>Beldeine is with Cadsuane. Sareitha is with Elayne.</b>
body:
Beldeine is with Cadsuane and Sareitha is with Elayne.<br /><br />Returning to the theory.  First of all I don't buy that everything RJ does is for a purpose.  Even if true, the purpose may be to distract.  RJ seems to delight in distracting the readers with false leads.  Wearing bronze is hardly damning evidence.<br /><br />Second, Mesaana is in the tower.  Sareitha is with Elayne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 12:22:52
subject: <b>Mesaana is in the White Tower</b>
body:
I always just assumed that Mesaana was in the White Tower, so she could be giving orders to Alviarin.  That would pretty much rule out Sarietha...except if she WAS one of the Forsaken, she could probably give Alviarin orders wherever she was.  Hmmmm I dunno. I guess we'll just have to let ourselves be strung along...RAFO


created: 2002-11-12 13:07:54
subject: <b>surely...</b>
body:
if she'd been an Aes Sedai for three years, she'd have spent ages being a novice/ Accepted first? so that timing wouldnt really fit?


created: 2002-11-12 15:18:52
subject: <b>I would hope</b>
body:
that when someone posts a theory to the TP, that they had researched it. I know sometimes there isn't much to go on, but usually you can find evidence scattered out among the various books to tie threads together. I would not assume that Mesanna only has one dress.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 15:19:41
subject: <b>Bronze dress</b>
body:
Nisao, in aCoS when Egwene finds out that Myrelle has Lan as a warder wears a bronze dress, too.  Maybe she's Mesaana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kaldric<br /><br />Of course, [Quixote] carried it a bit too far. He thought that every windmill was a giant. That's insane. But, thinking that they might be...<br />--Justin Playfair, <i>They Might Be Giants</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 06:11:09
subject: <b>Mesanna + Sareitha</b>
body:
Assuming the identity of a newly raised Aes Sedai would be very difficult. The one thing every Aes Sedia knows about every other Aes Sedai is how long they were a Novice and how long an Accepted.  I don't see one of the Forsaken scrubbing pots for a few  years and the only alternative is to assume the identity of a new raised sister.  This has it's problems as too many people would be familiar with the original person ie fellow students, teachers.  It would be very hard to duplicate exactly the manerisms and personality of an existing person.  It would be a lot simpler to take the identity of a sister who no one has seen for several years or a high ranking servant {one who orders the other servants but does not have to do any menial work herself}


created: 2002-11-13 11:36:29
subject: <b>I think we have to look at all the evidence that says</b>
body:
Mesaana is in the white tower. The ones I can think of off hand; we know she has tried to get angreal or sa&#8217;angreal from the Great Hold, but in the same sentence she mentions that she has tried in Tear too. Sammael assumes she is in the WT because of what she knows about Aes Sedai and their doings, he has this thought when talking to Graendal in her lair something like <i>how long has Mesaana been tucked away in the White Tower</i> but it is only his thoughts, not a for sure. She might know these things that Sammeal thinks are damming evidence as to where she is hiding because she is working with Aes Sedai (Alviarin we know for sure) and is posing as one (we assume). Graendal does not know for sure where Mesaana is, though Sammael tells her the WT and that he knows &#8220;for sure&#8221;, but again, it&#8217;s just his assumption. Alviarin also believes her to be in the WT, but again, its just another character musing and assuming. In fact, she teaches Alviarin how to make a gateway, right after Alviarin makes her assumption that she is posing as one of the sisters. Would Alviarin have made that assumption before she learned of gateways? Even if Mesaana knows so much about what goes on inside the WT? What does the glossary say about her? I believe it said she is believed to be residing in the WT. Not a for sure, just believed to be, correct me if I am wrong, don't have my books with me. I also can't think of any other arrows pointing to her in the WT. She has shown up there, we know that, but how do we know she is really residing there other then the speculation of other Forsaken, Black Ajah and an obscure glossary passage? My mind is blank. Not a bad theory I would say, though I think it&#8217;s RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 16:01:46
subject: <b>No, Mesaana is....</b>
body:
In the WT, but NOT posing as Aes Sedai. She has to be in the WT, because she knows what is going on, if she had an identity around Caddy, she would have to spend so much time maintaining it that she wouldn't be able to root out all the secrets of the Aes Sedai (and they take some rooting out...). <br />Alviarin would assume that Mesaana was AS, because she is used to thinking like this:<br />   One Power=Aes Sedai=POWER!<br />She would never think that a mere servant in the WT would have much importance (she was white, remember?), and nor would anyone else. <br />Also, it would be much easier to be a servant than an AS, because there are more servants, no-one pays attention to them, (she could be cleaning the Amyrlin's chamber, and no-one would question her, when would an AS get to do that?) not to mention that a new AS just appearing would cause a little suspicion.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Carai an Caldazar! Tai'Shar Qo'nos! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-13 16:09:36
subject: <b>not enough for me</b>
body:
She could know whats going on from Aes Sedai informants, ergo other Black Ajah. Every black does not know every other black, they are kept in the dark (no pun intended), and do as they are told (well they are supposed to anyway).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 23:41:51
subject: <b>I thought it was more or less unanimous</b>
body:
that Mesaana is posing as Danelle. This scenario holds the largest amount of and, more importantly, the most plausible evidence.<br /><br />Also, a well-written theory was posted a few months ago proving that Sareitha is the yet unknown Black Sister in the Royal Palace in Caemlyn that Shiane was attempting to contact.<br /><br />If you belive this to be true, it allows you to and rule out Mesaana posing as Sareitha, since Sareitha running around the city to make meetings and errands would be out of context for a Chosen.<br /><br />And yes, I also agree that too much stock has been put into the bronze dress. This is definitely something that would require more evidence to dismiss or agree with. RAFO I would think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 01:47:30
subject: <b>well, my point was P Floyd</b>
body:
<i>I thought it was more or less unanimous that Mesaana is posing as Danelle.</i><br /><br />my point is, says who? Mesaana? No. But Sammeal, yes, Alviarin, yep. But what <b>proof</b> do we have? None. I don't care what the unanimous vote is, I think we might be totally mislead here, and ender7698 has a good point, Mesaana could be Sareitha. <br /><br />Show me the money. Where does it say in the books, and Forsaken or Black Ajah speculation aside, that Mesaana is residing in the WT? I think this could be the most obvious mislead RJ has pulled. He has told us she is there, but if you look closely, he says as much by the assumptions and thoughts of other characters. We may have taken the bait, and are now firmly hooked. If he wrote her somewhere else, the back story would support it, she has not been proven in the WT. RAFO<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 07:17:39
subject: <b>Non WT</b>
body:
I still think I am right, she is a servant, but if she isn't in the WT, I think we can safely say that RJ has had Aes Sedai training.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-17 17:20:48
subject: <b>Well Windsor...</b>
body:
<b>Where does it say in the books, and Forsaken or Black Ajah speculation aside, that Mesaana is residing in the WT?</b><br /><br />who among the non-FS and non-BA has any knowledge of Mesaana? .....none. So really it is irrelevant that the only evidence of Mesaana we have is from either: herself, BA, or other FS. That <i>is</i> what we have to go on. I mean, we can disregard <i>tons</i> of other information just because we have received it from a select group (or even a person's) POV.<br /><br /><br /><b>He has told us she is there, but if you look closely, he says as much by the assumptions and thoughts of other characters.</b><br /><br />Well, this is how the Wheel of Time is told, through character's POV's. For example, the only evidence of the Creator we have is through the &quot;assumptions and thoughts of characters&quot;. Following this line of thought, the Creator probably doesn't exist????<br /><br />I for one believe Mesaana is residing in the Tower, posing as Danelle. Of course, I could be wrong, but we'll all have to RAFO, like you said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 17:53:52
subject: <b>Mesaana is not Sareitha</b>
body:
We know for a fact that Mesaana is in the White Tower, so she can't be in Caemlyn. I do believe that Sareitha is a Darkfriend, but she can't be Mesaana.<br />Also, you did not take into account the time Sareitha would have been a novice and accepted. Surely someone would have noticed if she just appeared one day as an accepted or a newly raised Aes Sedai.


created: 2002-11-18 23:26:42
subject: <b>you make a good point P Floyd</b>
body:
I am just getting over analytical because I have nothing better to do while waiting for book 10 to come out. I did fully search for Mesaana though all the books though, and there is not one POV from her where she says she is in the WT. I do find that odd. Anyway, your prob right, her posing as Danelle is even more plausible. I just like to explore all the options, to ridiculous possibilities.<br />Peace <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 18:22:39
subject: <b>Hey!</b>
body:
What would this theory post and response be without people who get overanalytical about a series of books anyway? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Actually, I do agree that there are HUGE holes left in Mesaana's cover as Danelle, simply because she's played such a small part in the story (that we, as readers, can tell). However, RJ can't just finally reveal that she's been posing as some random AS or person who we haven't heard about. That would be lame.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 11:29:23
subject: <b>Mesaana would never teach the Sea Folk</b>
body:
Can you imagine any of the Forsaken putting up with half of what we see from Nynaeve's POV?  Also, I doubt it would be very easy for Sareitha to Travel back to the WT especially during the times when the group with Elayne are sleeping four to a bed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-24 15:22:05
subject: <b>Bronze,,, Velvet ?</b>
body:
the evidence of a bronze dress equals the evidance of the velvet cloth's both Taim and Demi were wearing in LoC <br />But i don't think that Rj has even written this to trap us this is just a coincidense.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-04 10:40:03
subject: <b>How about Shevan ?</b>
body:
In the beginning of the chapter &quot;An unwelcome return&quot; in POD where Alviarin touches Mesaanas dress and sees that it is bronze silk, Elaida is having a &quot;conversation&quot; with some of the sitters. Shevan is one of the and she has a dark golden silk shirt. Dark gold ain&#180;t that far from bronze in color ...<br /><br />And Shevan has some strange reactions early in this chapter<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-12 19:06:34
subject: <b>It's quite possible</b>
body:
I kind of like this theory. It's short and sweet, but it doesn't really affect anything since everytime Callandor is used is after it gets hit with th balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 19:42:15
subject: <b>Like your theory</b>
body:
And I actually agree with the concept of the its angreal power being upgraded.  Consider that an angreal or sa'angreal is inherently a physical object and that the make up of that object is what would control the strength of each angreal and sa'angreal.  Aligning the matrix a technique we have heard of in relationship to ter'angreal is the procedure that we assume coaxes the One power to flow through the object.  It is the quality and type of this alignment that affects use and power of each 'angreal.<br />I have often considered cuellindar to be something like diamond to the nth power.  Diamond because if I remember correctly it has the most structurally sound atomic structure.  This is why it is the strongest substance found on earth.  With the One Power you can make any shape and any substance like diamond, but ultimately you could make it perfectly.  Meaning that it could never be undone.  That being said, perfect structure would provide the significantly stronger and significantly more effective pathways for the One power to travel throgh.  In essence making it a much better conductor because it is better able to reliably transfer energy.  And though my explanation for why cuellindar gets stronger is that it takes the energy acting upon it and strengthens its own structure, obviously 'angreals are able to perform the tasks that they were created for and so a cuellindar Callandor hit by an ouside force would gain a stronger and more perfect structure causing it to be a stronger more perfect conductor, meaning a stronger more perfect sa'angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 19:43:34
subject: <b>well..</b>
body:
ok one thing about Callandor...it SPLIT the blefire...it seems to me that Cuendillar would absorb it....think about it f it grows stronger when the op used on it..that seems toi say it ABSORBS the op...


created: 2002-11-12 19:47:43
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
For one we don't know that it was balefire, for two we don't know that Callandor actually encountered it, it could have been a weave of Rand's that shifted balefire (not blocking it, just deflecting it away). If either of these is the case, then there is no question. Even if balefire did hit Callandor, that means nothing, since 'heartstone gets stronger by attacking it with the one power' seems like a meaningless statement - stronger than what? It is already indistructable. Also, if the heartstone gets physically stronger, this does not imply that the sa'angral properties of Callandor get stronger - this is a complete leap. Otherwise, the White Tower would spend all day everyday attacking any heartstone angreal they have to make them stronger.


created: 2002-11-12 21:11:54
subject: <b>Blah</b>
body:
I don't think cuendillar is crystal, or the other heartstone items we've seen would have been described that way.<br />And a diamond is hard not strong! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 21:23:03
subject: <b>Balefire didn't hit Callandor</b>
body:
The section skipped tells us that between Rand twisting his wrists and the balefire splitting, Rand did his instinctive channelling trick. He, not Callandor, deflected the balefire.<br />We have seen balefire hit cuendillar before, and it wasn't deflected in any way. The figurines in the Panarch's museum just fell through the balefire, without throwing off random sprays like a balefire disco ball.<br /><br />Ouch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 23:58:28
subject: <b>Balefire Disco Ball....That's Just Scary....</b>
body:
The title says it all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob Moore<br />Bromly Falco<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Da'Rie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The 15th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 04:37:12
subject: <b>Why isn't cuendillar affected by Bale fire?</b>
body:
I agree with everyone else on this (I'm bored and need something to do) The Sangreal properties of Callandor won't be affected by the Bale fire, I don't think it will be physically harder as its matrix is already fully aligned (Maybe like diamonds cuendillar can have varying strengths from mostly aligned to fully), but chances are it was Rand deflecting the Bale fire by instinct so none of the above counts.<br /><br />As to why cuendillar isn't affected by Bale fire, what would happen if someone just made some heartstone then used balefire strong enough to burn the pattern past the forging of it, would it still be immune?<br /><br />Bake them noodles.<br /><br />Dai Lau <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-13 11:42:23
subject: <b>balefire disco ball - ROFL</b>
body:
the image that formed in my mind, that is just one of the funniest things I have heard *wipes away a tear*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 15:54:54
subject: <b>Sea Monkeys and the CK</b>
body:
I don't buy into this one...it would be far to easy for every AS or Asha'man who had a *angreal to greatly increase its power  seemingly without limitation.  Just would completely defeat the (intentionally?) multi-tiered levels of *angreal that we see.  Everyone with the power to weave balefire could easily have their own personal CK or beyond, just like those lil' sea monkeys...


created: 2002-11-14 13:14:38
subject: <b>channeling away balefire</b>
body:
I dont think rand could do some channeling trick to channel away balefire.  If he could why wouldnt any of the other forsaken that died from balefire.  I thought that was the calling card of balefire.  It was the absolute end.  Once it was woven at you it is time to pack your bags for Valhalla.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 14:10:09
subject: <b>Do we have any examples of ...</b>
body:
an angreal of any kind (other than the seals) being made of heartstone? It seems to me that all mentions of heartstone (except, of course, the seals) are somewhat innocuous everyday objects, such as decorative figurines, dishes, etc. Angreals, on the other hand, are made of something different, depending on their use.<br /><br />When Elayne made terangreals, she said that something that she couldn't explain happened to the rock, and it wasn't quite rock any more. I expect that something similar happened to Callandor. It was originally some sort of crystal (maybe diamond) and the process of turning it into a sa'angreal made it something different.<br /><br />Beside, I think that all the references to heartstone so far have been a chalky white stonelike material.<br /><br />Rob<br /><br />p.s. the sad bracelets are described as being made of a cuendillar LIKE material that is nearly impossible to destroy. They are also a dull black metal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 14:45:09
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
I just chalked up the reason that callandor split the balefire to either an &quot;anti-Power&quot; aura surrounding the sword or to some shield Rand unconsciously channeled through it.  <br /><br />The material callandor is comprised of never entered my mind, but it does make me wonder- Can the broken heartstone seals be balefired to a state before they were broken? <br /><br />GF


created: 2002-11-16 03:49:13
subject: <b>It is possible to avoid balefire</b>
body:
Haven't bother to hunt down the section, but when Rand was fighting Rahvin, didn't they exchange balefire a few times. Unless it hits you, there's no problem. And if you're quick enough, or have sufficient warning, you should be able to avoid it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 05:41:16
subject: <b>Osangar knew a thing or two...</b>
body:
At the end of Winter's Heart, when Osangar was preparing to balefire Rand's group, he knew that this would destroy the access terangreal but not Callandor. Therefore Callandor is made of cuendillar, probably one of few angreal or sa'angreal to be made so.<br /><br />Whether it became a more potent Sa'angreal is probably RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-06 11:30:40
subject: <b>What does it matter?</b>
body:
If an unbreakable material becomes stronger, how would you tell?<br />BUt about the theory: I don't think Callandor is made of cuendillar. Don't know how it did that, don't have any justifiable reason, that's just my opinion.<br /><br />Well, time to rea the other comments and see how stupid I am.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-24 09:31:22
subject: <b>Only by his ...</b>
body:
Only by his structure grows stronger not ... with chanelling one power ... because ... there is no ... connection .... with ... the agility of the angreal and the power ... it can ... channel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Soory if there is wrong words but i am lazyyyy an' i dont read what i write <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />p


created: 2003-12-06 02:14:52
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
I always thought that the splitting of the balefire was caused but the immense amounts of OP that Rand was holding at the time.  Since Callandor is one of the strongest sa'angreal ever made and we never have a mention of it being used and the CK were not used we know, so conceivable it was the most OP and single person ever held ever.  My belief was that even though it is balefire, its still just a weave so those immense amounts of OP just caused it to rupture the weave was torn.


created: 2004-03-01 08:19:33
subject: <b>no no no</b>
body:
alright for the purpose of proving you wrong we'll asume that callandor is in fact made of heart stone (debatable). heart stone gets stronger every time its attacked (truth). it doesnt get more potent! when described as getting stronger it only refers to the integrity of the material, not the potency of the sa'angreal. so callandor, the indestructable material(assumiong again that it is heart stone), got even less destructable not more powerful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">sheathing the sword<br />1337 U53|2 of WOT<br />me</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 12:28:53
subject:
<b>Thumbs up for your theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Didn`t vote because I`m indecided.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-04 18:38:29
subject: <b>stronger in what way?</b>
body:
Callandor is something special, there is no doubt about it.  My theory is that when Rand was holding amazing amounts of the OP, his strength combined with that of Callandors material to split the balefire.  It did not split because of Rand's ability or Callandor's material, but because of both.<br />As for Callandor being stronger, I believe that its increased strength came from the material it's made from.  It is likely that it is made from heartstone, it would be a good way to preserve such a powerful tool.  Not many angreal are made for heartstone; both angreal and heartstone is rare.  What if because of it's unique properties, any OP used against it adds to it's strength?  That would also explain why it isn't buffered like other angreal.  Shorly after it was made, it was subjected to OP attacks, so it became more potent.  Then, the buffer that applies to every other angreal didn't match with the strength of it, so it became dangerous to use.


created: 2005-01-21 04:53:14
subject: <b>It's a bloody transparent crystal.</b>
body:
Has anybody considered the possibility that, just like any other ray, Balefire might be refracted when it hits a transparent crystal?  If it hits the edge, then half is hitting one facet and half hitting another, thus the beam being refracted in two directions at once.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Behold, my loyal armies...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 23:36:24
subject: <b>not cuellendar</b>
body:
Cuellendar is either black or white depending on if it was created with Saidin or Saidar. The only possible way that is is cuellendar would be if it was made with the true source channeled through the DO. But then that would mean that all the other crystal sa'angreal would be made with it which i don't think is true because the DO would never let them get out of Forsaken hands.


created: 2005-07-17 17:12:28
subject: <b>reinforcment of the theory</b>
body:
As a scholar so insightfully mentioned above, cuenillar is like diamond to the nth power. He said diamond is so strong because it is so orderly. I am a chemistry buff of sorts, at least the theories involved, and I can further support this. The energy absorbed by cuendillar did indeed strengthen it by making is atomic structre more orderly. As my chemistry teacher stated, things only become more orderly when energy is put into the system. An analogy would help here. Imagine your bedroom. Is it covered with dirty clothes? It is messy, probably, not that i know, nor do i want to know, anything about your personal life. Anyway, the only way you will make it less messy is by working, or getting your slave to work for you. If you do not put any energy into the system of chaos known as your room, it will only get messier. Therefore, when the cuendillar in Callandor was exposed to the energy in Moriane's balefire, it became more orderly, and therefore, allowed Callandor to become stronger.


created: 2002-11-13 11:52:02
subject: <b>It's a good Theory</b>
body:
but I have read it before, somewhere... I searched though theory post and and found nothing. Anyway, I give it thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 11:57:42
subject: <b>Life after the Red</b>
body:
I think Burr's probably right on this one, its going to take a lot for the red ajah to survive the rumours that they set up the false Dragons, but it is possible and could go down in the secret histories.<br /><br />Maybe all the Red's could reform as the Purple Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />, their role could also change to hunting Dreadlords instead esp as one of the first to start hunting the Black Ajah was Pevara (First 'good' Red that isn't a lemon)<br /><br />As to Teslyn standing, if the Red's survive three will have to stand for Egwene and she is definitely a candidate, might not even need Mat to force her. Who else would stand? I suggest Pevara again and what's her face the red who was emissary for the White Tower to Salidar.<br /><br />Dai Lau<br /><br />Weaselling out of things is what separates us from the animals...except weasals that is.


created: 2002-11-13 12:42:41
subject: <b>Red Ajah</b>
body:
Yes, I believe Red will continue to exist, with the mission of Darkfriend hunting maybe, as was suggested. It is the largest Ajah and has a standing organization and lots of people used to going out to the world (with the contrast to Whites and Browns for example). Also, destroying the Red Ajah wouldn't be  a unity supporting thing, and we have seen how important it is in the White Tower. It would also weaken Egwene's position.<br /><br />Yes, I have seen this thing mentioned often, today I, too,  searced the Theory post and didn't find a theory, so I decided to write one. Hmm, and here I thought getting a theory posted would be slow. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 13:00:24
subject: <b>Popes?</b>
body:
Anyone here seeing a SERIOUS similarity to the Great Schism in the Catholic Church where there were (at one time) 4 popes?<br /><br />Myrddraal can't smile.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-13 16:36:46
subject: <b>Close...</b>
body:
Voting for Egwene wouldn't be treason, and whatever Teslyn does will be treason to the White Tower - RJ made that clear by making her correct herself on that point. What are things that Elaida has specificially said will constitute treason to the White Tower? These points have been slipped in a couple of times, and I think it is for a reason. From memory, talking to or helping Rand or the rebels is Treason, spreading the Red Ajah rumours is Treason, and a few other stupid things. Possibly, Teslyn will be asked to confirm the Red Ajah rumours (not by outright lying, but still...), to lend the first real evidence to Egwene-Suian's case. Personally, I think the Red Ajah rumours are true, as it would be just like RJ to get a character to lie about something that turns out to be correct - and remember in book 1 Ishy told Rand, Mat and Perrin about all the False Dragons that were 'used' by the White Tower? Thom said he didn't see how the WT could use False Dragons, since they were opposed to them, and dismissed it, but why would the Dark One lie? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Egwene and Suian will need to find evidence that they were telling the truth before they swear on the Oath Rod, or they are screwed - maybe they'll rescue Galina and ask her some tough questions and what a Black sister is doing leading the Red Ajah.


created: 2002-11-13 16:58:32
subject: <b>I thought the Greater Consensus.....</b>
body:
...was unanimous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-14 02:00:11
subject: <b>It is.</b>
body:
The Greater Consensus requires a minimum of eleven Sitters, and one from each Ajah. Egwene can just not tell any Sitters who won't support her that the Hall is in session, and as long as she has over eleven who do and at least one Red...all sweet, and all official too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-14 06:03:34
subject: <b>Re: Burr's comment.</b>
body:
Whether or not Egwene plans to disband the Red Ajah is irrelevant to her present circumstances: she has to follow the procedures <i>as they are now</i>. It's the same in any government. Before Hitler could take away people's right to vote, he had to be voted into power. As it stands at the moment, the Red Ajah still exists and Egwene must have its support to be legally made Amyrlin. After she's got Teslyn to vote for her, she can start trying to disband the Red, although I think &quot;try&quot; is probably the word - I don't think 1/7 of all Aes Sedai will enjoy having their identity removed.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-14 09:20:54
subject: <b>More than 1/7</b>
body:
Actually I believe, according to the BWB, the numbers for the Red Ajah are much more than 1/7.  In fact, isn't the Read Ajah the largest of the 7 (I remember the Blue is smallest)?  In either case, I agree that the disbanding of the Red Ajah is unlikely, but perhaps a realigning of purpose is in order, since saidin has been cleansed.  Maybe since hunting was their purpose before they will to continue to hunt Black Ajah as Pevara's been doing(I believe someone else suggested that already, though I'm not nearly convinced of that).  I'm not sure it matters too much what they end up doing because I think when the Asha'man join the Aes Sedai there will be some sort of restructuring (though maybe no more than the groundwork being laid before TG)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-14 09:55:06
subject: <b>The &quot;Read&quot; Ajah?</b>
body:
Given that we're all here to discuss a book, SKW...  I think the &quot;Read&quot; Ajah is definitely the most numerous here.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-15 09:04:25
subject:
<b>Wasn't that a bit harsh Bish ? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Good to see a fellow Ancient back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 10:00:49
subject: <b>Since it hasn't been brought up yet</b>
body:
<i>&#8220;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.&quot;</i><br /><br />Some have taken that line as the Reds will be cast out and scorned. But I don't think so, and side more with this theory, and think it will be the Blacks that are cast out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 10:56:11
subject: <b>It is more likely</b>
body:
for Egwene to get a cross-over vote from a Red than Elaida getting one from a Blue. Teslyn sure seems to be the most likely candidate to be the one. I'll agree with this theory. And I also think the Reds will continue to be the &quot;hunters.&quot; Looking for DFs, and BA. And maybe the WT has learned its lesson about searching for new girls that can channel as well. They are always complaining about their dwindling numbers, but, was there ever an active search for more? Maybe this will be part of their &quot;new&quot; task as well.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 11:28:45
subject: <b>Red as BA hunters</b>
body:
I like this idea too. They will need something to do. <br /><br />I also forget to add from above about <i>remnants</i>. I think these remnants are going to be those Aes Sedai that survive the Last Battle. Maybe ones that don't become Dreadlords.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 12:47:56
subject: <b>Egwene's Head on the Block</b>
body:
Could this tie in with the vision of Egwene with her head on the block?  (The one where a man is running somewhere, and if he runs fast enough she would not die).  &lt;No books&gt;<br /><br />LOL - it would be great to see Mat rushing to pull Egwene's bacon out of the fire again.


created: 2002-11-15 13:41:57
subject: <b>Why not PEVARA?</b>
body:
She's a Red Ajah (Sitter, I think).<br />and she suspects that Elaida may be a Black Ajah.<br />and she's in the Tower right now.<br /><br />I don't see how Teslyn would get there in time.  Also, Elaida is making quite a few enemies within her own Ajah.  Toveine hates her guts.  So do Katerine and Galina, I think.  If any of those bitter Red sisters shows up in the Tower while Elaida is making a speech, they could puncture her support.<br /><br />I think Teslyn is the least likely to be there.  She's on the other side of the continent, and she doesn't know how to Travel.<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-16 09:47:58
subject: <b>TESLYN IS NOT A SITTER ANYMORE!!!!!</b>
body:
Pevara, Duhara, and Javindra are sitters for the Red.  Teslyn and Joline both used to be Sitters until they were unchaired by Elaida as examples.  This is all a ridiculous discussion.  As to the Red Ajah's future purpose, remember the CoT jacket- it implies the White Tower is needed as a check on the Black Tower.  An Ajah devoted to keeping the men in their place is not totally out of the realm of possibility when there are already so many other institutions in WoT that seem to have no other reason to exist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 01:58:03
subject: <b>red ajah after unification of white tower</b>
body:
Once the white tower is made whole again, the red ajah's job will be to protect the dragon reborn. at first the idea may sound ludicrous, but think about it, the red ajah's purpose to gentle men is now not needed because the male half of the true source is clean and also, it has that ironic twist that we see robert jordan do so often.


created: 2002-11-17 05:38:12
subject: <b>Portal stone</b>
body:
&quot;I don't see how Teslyn would get there in time.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Portal stones exist and Mat should have enough raw power with him to use one. Naturally assuming that one could be used by circle.


created: 2002-11-17 06:43:30
subject: <b>To Cannoli</b>
body:
Teslyn is not a Siter anymore, but if Elaida isn't treated as a legal Amyrlin, unchairing Teslyn won't be legal either. Also, I was thinking that all the &quot;old&quot; sitters (the ones in the Hall before the split) will have chairs, new ones will only be elected to fill up places left by those who are dead or proven Black Ajah. That would support the idea of WT unity and unmaking the split as much as possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 07:26:10
subject: <b>NO Portal Stones</b>
body:
There isn't a portal stone near Tar Valon (at least not a known one) or Verin would know about it. At that to the fact that none of those with Mat know how to use one: neither of the AS are Brown, so why should they?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Tai'Shar Qo'nos! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-17 15:36:18
subject: <b>Another Clue</b>
body:
From Egwene&#8217;s dream from PoD:<br /> <br />Mat, weighing two huge Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended&#8230;She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. <br /><br />Mat making the call between the two Amyrlins would certainly fit that prophesy, and Egwene&#8217;s not seeing clearly what decision hangs in the balance adds to the idea that it might involve her directly (if she knew it was about her, she could probably do the math and thus the prophesy would be too clear).<br /><br />Given Egwene&#8217;s specific interest in the area and the White Tower&#8217;s obvious failing at it; I suspect the Red&#8217;s may become dedicated to recruitment and maintaining the ties of all channelers to the tower.<br />


created: 2002-11-20 09:01:18
subject: <b>The Red Survives</b>
body:
I don't think the Red will be disbanded following Egwene's victory.  It would be too divisive, especially as the Red is the largest Ajah.  The Tower needs to be whole, the Black Ajah, and this could not be achieved by disbanding the largest of the Ajahs.  Elaida dreams of reuniting the Tower but disbanding the Blue, Elaida is a divisive buffoon.  This is not Egwene's MO - she will be the first Amyrlin to truly be of all Ajahs and none, she needs the support of the Reds.  Also, after spending most of the series portraying the Reds as on a par with the Whitecloaks or worse (Elaida, Laindrin, Galina etc) RJ seems to be softening their image somewhat (Pevara, Teslyn, the Reds who have sworn to Rand, even Toveine (OK, she's arrogant and has an eye for the young boys but she hates Elaida)).  They'll need a new role, perhaps working alongside their longtime rivals, the Green, in preparing for Tarmon Gai'don but I think they'll survive.  I think it's also worth noting that the head of the Red Ajah, who might be expected to resist any plans to support Egwene, is far from the Tower without much likelihood of getting their anytime soon.


created: 2003-04-11 04:45:48
subject: <b>Siuan?</b>
body:
What about Siuan? they can choose her againe as Amyrlin, not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 17:45:48
subject: <b>Reds will NOT be Black Ajah hunters</b>
body:
Firstly, we have to assume the WT will survive TG, etc. Secondly, if the Reds become BA hunters, it'll end up as a repeat of the WC's. (Whitecloaks) At first they'll be good, but gradually you'll have it that a Red can simply NOT be Black, which is much like the WC's. That's all on that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-02 11:21:03
subject: <b>teslyn might come in time</b>
body:
my thoughts:<br /><br />-mat and his company is heading where perrin is<br />-since Tuon would be recognized easily by the seanchan with tallanvor, she might do the rites to make mat his husband  and come out in open since this seanchan army doesn't know that Tuon has been kidnapped. The Seanchan army would be under mat's then.<br />-mat would see perrin's problem, and if he can't use his bloody luck to sneak inside the aiel camp and rescue faile/morgase/etc., he(with perrin) would then have to settle it in a battle<br />-mat and perrin's company, including tallanvor's seanchan isn't big enough to go against the aiel. mat would then think of the need of his band<br />-mat might use one of perrin's ashaman to find his band, which for all his belief is with still egwene<br />-mat and his company (thom, tuon, etc.) either with his luck(faster way) or by tracking(he's got thom, juilin and some of his band with him --- slower way) would eventually find the Salidar Aes Sedai(egwene's camp)<br />-mat will learn that egwene is missing or being held at WT<br />-2 possible scenarios:<br />---mat, with his company(perhaps thom and/or juilin,ashaman and any of the seanchan---which matches the dream of egwene of her being rescued by a seanchan) will try to sneak inside the WT to rescue egwene... or<br />---mat would recall his band to join with Bryne's troops for a mighty WT sieging.They would all then attack WT to rescue Egwene.<br />-mat and his band and company will then travel back to perrin since after dealing with the white tower, perrin would still be thinking and sniffing<br /><br />also, there's a possibility that the SAS might get the black tower's support, and considering this, Toveine, a former sitter of the red ajah,might join the SAS as a sitter for the Red ajah, and along side with teslyn, SAS would then now have 2 sitters for the red ajah to support Egwene.


created: 2003-06-12 19:12:03
subject: <b>Teslyn will stand for Egwene=</b>
body:
If she gets there in time.  <br /><br />Dear Connoli:Has it ever occurred to you that you`re constantly attacking fictional females in a story written by a man, investing them with all the qualities you despise {and some that I despise}?  Think about it. Whom should you be angry with?  <br /><br />Seriously, I believe RJ is beginning to put things in balance {in CoT}, and  eventually will have lives in balance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-06 11:16:43
subject: <b>I have no problem with most of the fictional females</b>
body:
The fact is, the conflict and cooperation between male and female is a driving force of the Wheel of Time (both the series and the actual Wheel in the books-driven by the One Power and the opposing forces of saidar and saidin).  Most of the protagonistic &quot;good&quot; cultures have some sort of power-sharing checks and balances along the gender lines.  The Aiel have roofmistresses and Wise Ones competing for Power agaist male Clan Chiefs and battleleaders; the Two Rivers has Mayor and Council against the Wisdom and the Women's Circle.  Note the even balance of genders among the Borderland rulers.  In Ebou Dar, for all the female domination, women can't own ships.  The only real sexism is on the part of the Aes Sedai, according to Jordan, who don't believe a woman can be a Warder, and even Cadsuane revealed she has trouble imagining male Aes Sedai from the AoL. The Asha'man are necessary to put the world back in balance on a male/female axis, but is seems to be CONFLICT between the genders that helps reach the balance - sort like a feedback mechanism.  Therefore, the Red Ajah (my personal favorite ajah after reading CoT) still can have a place as the counter to the Black Tower, whose members are revealing their own (male)weaknesses and arrogances as well as the Aes Sedai.  The only females I have a problem with are Egwene, who is annoying, and not for any female reason (unless blatant hypocrisy is a female trait?), and Min, who is useless, stupid and pathetic.  And Siuan, who is incompetant, with the most unjustified attitude.  But I LIKE Nynaeve and Aviendha and Elayne and Cadsuane, a little.  I can even take Faile, as long as she isn't being a total b**** at Perrin.  I like the Black Ajah hunters in the recent books, and I feel sorry for Elaida.  However, if you're going to start drawing up battlelines according to gender, I know what my chromosomes are, and I'm going to be on our side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-01 00:33:09
subject: <b>how about Faolin</b>
body:
I think if any blue votes for Elaida it must be Faolin. Most thought she would choose red but since she's in Salidar (or was) she had to choose another.


created: 2002-11-16 16:14:19
subject: <b>Although I would heartily enjoy this to be right..</b>
body:
I really don't think so. I think that when she noticed that the sun was a little lower in the sky it was just taking into account that they were moving quite far to the East (? I think?) These people don't exactly seem sophisticated enough to know that it isn't day all over the world at the same time. (In other words, I don't think that they know that the world spins) I never really thought that it was that big a thing. Good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Shameless Chatroom Flirt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Warderette to Dodem <br />Aes Sedai to Jarrod<br />Alexia is my Cowgirl on shining mower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 16:32:42
subject: <b>Aviendha the Reader of Residues</b>
body:
Technically Aviendha already has a Talent that, one could argue, would &quot;put her on a par with our other female hero characters: Egwene the Dreamer, Nynaeve the Healer, Min the Seer, and Elayne the Ter'angreal Maker.&quot;  Aviendha has the Talent to read residues.  In PoD this causes quite a stir among the Aes Sedai, and I think it will become a major factor at some later point in the story.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob Moore<br />Bromly Falco<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Da'Rie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The 15th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 17:43:23
subject: <b>In response to SmeggyWulf</b>
body:
That was one of the reasons I put two references to the fact that they Traveled north. Yes, they did have to go east a short distance, but both statements in the book just said across the river. The bay crossing to the Rahad was described as about 7 or 8 miles. The river above Ebou Dar would be considerably less. So the distance travelled east would be negligable in relation to sun position for a trip that only took a couple minutes at best. Certainly not far enough east or enough time elapsed, for her to notice a difference in its position. Plus the fact that RJ would even mention it at all.<br /><br /> And, believe it or not, they are aware of time differences. Remember when Egwene was in the Waste meeting with Elayne and Nynaeve in Tel'aran'rhiod? There was at least one time that Egwene was in a light trance, riding in the early morning on the way to the Jangai Pass, and the other two were in Tanchico where it was still nighttime.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 18:39:18
subject: <b>The Seanchan portal</b>
body:
The first time she opened a portal to when she ran away it was winter. But i don't remember it bing winter till the bowl being used in Rand land. I am sure someone does.<br />Whether between book 4 and 8 we had no winter in randland.<br />I wonder if the DO cursed the seanchan to winter like he cursed randlan to summer.<br /><br />Which could mean a time portal.<br /><br />I amnot fully convinced of the theory though<br /><br />shadow killer<br /><br />trust is a knife, the hilt as sharp as a blade.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 19:15:14
subject:
<b>That's a neat theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I like that theory. I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~TMM<br /><br />Commander of the Lemurs, Destroyer of Worlds<br /><br /><b><font color="red">This message was edited by 100 lemurs at 25:25:25 AM 13/39/3000</font></b><br /><br /><font color="red">Hail the lemurs. They know where you live.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 22:23:14
subject: <b>Shadow Killer...</b>
body:
...the DO had to strain enough as it was to fix the seasons in &quot;Randland&quot;, let alone Seanchan which is across the other side of the world. It was either just a normal Seanchan winter that Rand and Aviendha stumbled into or it was somewhere in Seanchan where it is always covered in snow (somewhere to the far north).<br /><br />Anyhow, I doubt it (the theory). There's no need to give an explanation for why she was using so much of her power to make a gateway, we know that it's her second way of creating the weave, it's much harder for her. That Elayne comment is so offhand it just seems to be there to increase tension in the amount of time they are taking.


created: 2002-11-17 00:01:02
subject: <b>NOT A TIME PORTAL..</b>
body:
let's see..they had alot of ppl to get throught a little portal (1 at a time) ..thus it'd take maybe HOURS to get them throught thus The sunset remake is merely pointing out that it took longer then expected to get everyone throught...and they might have traveled farther east then you think think..The river doesn't go straight north IT CURVES east look at the map in the book...


created: 2002-11-17 00:48:14
subject: <b>weave difficulty</b>
body:
I read her difficulty forming the weave as being more of a mental block (losing control of herself with Rand, etc. the first time) than anything else.  I'm thinking now that things are being settled with Rand and the other two that it might not be so hard for her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You me when I think really think about it<br />    Are the same&quot; Ikkyu Sojun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Joy is in the ears that hear,<br />    Not in the mouth that speaks.&quot; Giantish saying <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 02:00:44
subject: <b>twice dawning day...</b>
body:
Nice of you to have mentioned Travelling as a means of a twice dawning day.  I submitted a theory that was never posted which essentially said that instantaneous transit to a place far enough to the west could allow the traveller to experience a dawn of the same day more than once.  <br /><br />There is only one way that a day could LITERALLY dawn twice- that is for the planet to remain stationary in its path around the sun for an extra revolution.  <br /><br />If prophecy is fulfilled FIGURATIVELY, and it probably will be, there have been many theories ranging from a volcano erupting blocking the sun and subsiding to a solar eclipse.  If it's a solar eclipse- that would be substantial evidence for anyone who thinks Randland is Earth, as the Earth is unique in that both the sun and moon are the same size in the sky.  Knowledge of heavenly bodies (and visits to some of them) was well known in the Age of Legends.<br /><br />GF


created: 2002-11-17 03:13:18
subject: <b>I think this is a great theory</b>
body:
Just think of its implications. It could certainly play a significant part in the last battle, and the twice dawns the day bit. I don't think it is too easy to blow off the <i>The sun seemed lower than it had in the stableyard, but she knew that was only imagination.</i> remark. People have used traveling a lot by this point, but for some reason, this little blurb is mentioned. It is never mentioned in Rand's many trips from Caemlyn to Cairhien, an often-traveled W to E journey. <br /><br />My big questions are, if they did travel back in time, as suggested, then were there two of everybody that went though the gateway for some amount of time? Were they all at the farm while simultaneously in Ebou Dar before they made the leap? That alone has some pretty big implications, unless of course they just magically vanish in Ebou Dar as if they never opened the time portal/gateway, because they were already at the farm at an earlier point in time. (heh that&#8217;s confusing)<br /><br />I really like all the evidence, it's almost a flaming arrow pointing that something is up, but I am uncomfortable with the circumstances, mainly that going back in time, just like the Back to the Future movies showed us, it means you could possibly run into yourself. Maybe it is worth noting that Loial says as much in TGH in this paragraph:<br /><i>&quot;She is a fascinating woman, isn't she? Some of the Elders don't know as much as she does about history-especially the Age of Legends-and about-oh, yes. She says you were right about the Ways, Rand. The Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round. Those worlds - this one, all the others - are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. Others are almost as likely as ours. Those are as solid as our world, and have people. The same people, she says, Rand. Imagine it! <b>You could go to one of them and meet yourself.</b> The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every<br />variation that can be, will be.&quot; <br /><br />This also brings up proof to another point, the Forsaken, or Lanfear at least, do indeed know something about this stuff, and there is the glaring line about &lt;i&gt;She says there are worlds where it is <b>time</b> rather than distance that changes.</i><br /><br />I think I am getting off track here, anyway, the point is, if there are devices that can do funky stuff with time and distance, then can't we assume there are ways to mess with time with the One Power, as we have seen it done with distance? The portal stones are used for traveling and visiting these other dimensions. So far we have seen the One Power used for traveling, and also for getting to other dimensions with TAR. Bottom line, it makes LitN's theory all that more plausible. <br /><br />While searching for the paragraphs about Rand in the portal stone dimension, I also came across the bit about Rand stepping into the house and there is a family there eating dinner, then he proceeds to have like 4 different visions of how the events unfold. This has never happened again, but it almost seems like Rand is time traveling though different variations of the pattern. Did he do something with the power to see this? This is when he is very inexperienced with the power, and he is afraid of going in, so he might have touched the source without knowing it, like he does all though book one, and triggered some kind time warp where he sees all this carp.<br /><br />OK, can I get any more longer winded? Anyway, I give this theory a thumbs up. There is something to that lower sun and Avi not being able to open the gateway good enough to be dismissed me thinks. I wish we knew more about Seanchan seasons and day times to know more about &quot;The Far Snows&quot; visit. Nice work LitN.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 04:18:44
subject: <b>Please God NO!!!!!!!</b>
body:
the idea of time travel offers to much to the story, especialy one as large and involved as this. can u imagine the screw-up story lines that dont quite make sense, and complete nonsense it would create. if u dont believe me, read eddings &quot;redemption of althalus&quot;.


created: 2002-11-17 07:09:38
subject: <b>TG consequences</b>
body:
There doesn't seem to be any other explaination; I think the most telling point is that it takes more of the OP to open the gateway than it should. If it were just difficulty remembering the weave, that shouldn't have happened. Carrying on the knitting analogy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />, if you try to make a scarf, and its difficult, you stab yourself a lot, but you don't use any more wool. (Possibly: someone who knits can correct me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />)<br />Also this would allow Rand to lose the last battle. I've always thought it a shame that, whatever happens, Rand is going to win in the end (too boring). Now we can have him losing, dying, and Aviendha coming back from a shadow-darkened, apocalyptic world to change time so he wins.<br /><br />Anyway, great theory.<br /><br />Bladud<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Someone is messing with time... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-17 08:50:26
subject: <b>You can't just...</b>
body:
randomly compare things to make analogies! This is channeling, it doesn't have the same rules as other things. I mean if I was to do what you've done (compared it to knitting), then how could I explain a woman being able to build a bridge of air longer than a man can? Through comparing it to the strain a plank of wood would make? It just doesn't work, they can't be compared!<br /><br />I don't see why a second learning of a weave shouldn't take more power to do. After all we've seen that Aes Sedai too weak in the power can still often make a gateway, but only large enough to put their hand through. Now if Aviendha's second way of learning is only powerful enough to make a small gateway that's stable (using the same amount of power Elayne is to make a large one), she's going to have to use more power to make it larger.


created: 2002-11-17 09:18:23
subject: <b>I agree with Windsor (in a way)</b>
body:
<br /> If objects can be made that can change the flow of time and distance, why not with the power? I'm not really sure how one could channel the power, open a gateway through to another world (like a portal stone) and come out again in the same world; maybe she is making 2 gateways and that is the trouble. <br /><br /> I don't think it's possible to go back in time, and thus having a 'Twice Dawns the Day' but I think she made 2 gateways, one into a portal world and one back out again, so that time seemed to have passed in the world, when it hadn't for the party. Much like what happened to Rand, Mat, Verin and that party.<br /><br /> That's my two cents anyway<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 12:30:34
subject: <b>Quantum Physics</b>
body:
I realize the Dreamworld/Ways/Protal stones stuff...  but follow this.  <br />1) A Traveling gateway (for women) does NOT uses either of those, it simply makes one place identical in the pattern to the other.<br />2) Following the current theory of quantum physics a particle can jump from one spot to another without crossing the intervening space, i.e. perform a tesseract also called a quantum leap.<br />3) Traveling does just that, go from one spot to the next with out crossing the intervening space.<br />4) A particle can NOT exist in two different locations at the same point in time.<br />5) In the portal worlds the comment is &quot;She says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round.&quot;  The other way around is spend one or twenty years in the portal worlds and find only a day has passed.  NOTE: Loial never says time is turned back, just slowed or sped up.  In the WoT world time is cyclic, a point is repeated as the wheel turns.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> But, (via our understanding of calculus) each individual point in time is LINEAR.  You can not simply &quot;turn back the wheel&quot; BECAUSE of this fact.  If you try to go backwards from a single point you go backwards on the tangential line, not on the cycle.  Since I am on the time thing here is my theory on balefire.  Balefire does NOT &quot;turn back the wheel.&quot;  Beyond that fact that you CAN NOT, if it did then time itself would go back.  Balefire rips the fabric of the space-time contiuum, it rips the pattern (i.e. burns threads out of the patern).  Balefire forms a chord on the wheel, the stronger the balefire, the longer the chord.  Also, we know balefire does not target the phsyical but the spiritual.  [1) the soul is destroyed, 2) the object is in a different location when it ceases to exist then when it is hit by the balefire.  This also idicates in WoT theology that ALL things possess souls not just humans]  The question occurs then, if balefire rips the pattern, could something else not also rip the pattern in such a way that transports it back into the past?  Following the pattern analogy of  weaving, you can rip a thread out of the weaving, but to insert a new thread is near impossible.  well I ent off on a tangent there.<br /><br />To conclude a weave can not turn back the pattern, so A's traveling gateway could not turn back time.<br /><br />well that is my $.02 worth...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Isaac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> The student of Fel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Theology, Philosophy, and Science.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Isaac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Student of Fel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />Theology, Philosophy, and Science.<br /><br />Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame.  -Albert Einstien</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 13:19:43
subject: <b>Much as I hate to disagree...</b>
body:
... but I do.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I Loads of people there - it must have taken a bit more than five minutes for them al o egt through the Gateway.<br /><br />II Twilight sets fast, you know. The sun might very well have gone down a bit more, and she in her tension have exaggerated it (This <i>is</i> a WoTwoman we're talking about.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />III Aviendha created her first weave runing away, in a major ji-e-toh (Sp?) fright. Rand runs after her, gets her &lt;leers&gt; and all this is reason enough for her to develope a slight block against Travelling. this would explain her problems.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />IV I don't <i>want</i> time-travel!! Balefire is more than enough. (Don't blame me for my selfishness<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 15:23:45
subject: <b>Ok, some of you don't seem to be understanding something here</b>
body:
The sun rises in the East, and sets in the West. So as you travel more and more East, the sun appears higher and higher in the sky, as it is later and later in the day (do a little model with a basketball or something). As Elayne travels East, she notices that the sun is <b>lower</b> in the sky. This goes against logic, and Elayne thinks as much with her little comment about it must be her imagination that the sun is lower. Now about how long it takes to get everybody though the gateway, is irrelevant, the observation is based on one person, Elayne, and the trip for her is instantaneous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 15:35:36
subject: <b>blah I post too fast</b>
body:
I wanted to mention this too. I really liked some of the explanations given by j17268. But wanted to add my own thoughts on some of them. The one I really liked was that baelfire creates a cord on the Wheel of Time. This is a great mathematical and visual explanation. Now in my original post, I said my biggest problem I had would be if there for some period of time, be two of everybody that went though Avi&#8217;s gateway. Well I also tried to give another possibility but it's hard to explain. <br /><br />Suppose Avi opens her gateway and it creates that cord on the wheel. Not only do they transfer distance, but also time. As soon as they step though the gateway, it's as if they were never there in the first place. It's almost like the effects of baelfire. As they travel back down the wheel, it's as if they ceased to exist the moments before they leapt leading back until the time they traveled back too.  I would also imagine that like balefire, all the actions of the people from the point they travel back to up to the point in witch they travel back are erased from the pattern, as it&#8217;s as if they were never there, because their matter can&#8217;t exist in two places in time at the same time.<br /><br />Uh oh! I did it again! my brain just melted... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 15:39:45
subject: <b>This seems to link to a previous theory...</b>
body:
Sometime in the last couple of weeks, a theory was posted that the obvious inconsistencies in the story could feasibly be explained by having two parallel worlds which have been accidentally bridged together.<br /><br />What if Aviendha has found a way to gateway between the two worlds (is that the correct verb?), in which the time is slightly different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 15:47:53
subject: <b>grr, correction...</b>
body:
I would also imagine that like balefire, all the actions of the people <b><i>from the point in witch they leap back, back to the point in witch they travel back to, are erased from the pattern</i></b>, it&#8217;s as if they were never there, because their matter can&#8217;t exist in two places in time at the same time.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 17:34:07
subject: <b>Windsor - about going back</b>
body:
<br /> How do we know that she has gone back in time? The sun could be lower but in a whole new day, ie. 23 hours forward or something. It makes SO much more sense to 'skip' time than go back. I'm sure one of the chosen/foresaken/dark doods of other ages must have stubled upon this weave, why hasn't the DO won? Also, how do you explain going back? Time turns slower when you're further away from the centre of the wheel, and faster when you're nearer to the centre, at no point does it flow backwards. <br /> Is Avi created a doorway to a world that ran mega slower, and then one back out again, a whole new day would have begun, but without anyone realising - just like Rand and co 'wasted' 6 or however months Travelling what seemed like a 2 miunte journey.<br /><br /> What do ya' think?<br /><br /> P.S I think this theory is a brilliant idea - great catch LitN <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 17:40:33
subject: <b>I don't really buy into the time portal theory...</b>
body:
....But I do think that the explanation about learning a second weave is a very plausible one.  I have been wondering why whe had such a problem with it, and I think that it is because she was trying a new way to weave the flows.  RJ takes time to make special mention of how she copied/learned exactly how to make the flows from Elayne  And we know that she &quot;effortlessly&quot; made a gateway before so it is reasonable to assume that she can Travel w/ no problem.  The difference in weaving this gateway is because she was trying to do it &quot;exactly&quot; the way Elayne did it which will not be as effective as the way that she had originally done it.<br /><br />As to the portal world part of the theory, I am not convinced.<br /><br />Sketchlord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-17 18:49:14
subject: <b>a few points</b>
body:
I don't really have too much to say.  It has been my experience, looking for foreshadowing comments for my FAQs, that RJ has very little details in the storyline that don't mean anything.  From this point, LitN does have some grounds to create a theory.<br /><br />I really liked this theory, and it added a much needed revival to Theorypost, but I am still unsure about what to think about it.  <br /><br />My problems are simply that time traveling might distort the pattern too much, especially time travel to the past.  I think we have all seen enough sf movies by now to know what effects I am talking about.  <br /><br />It just seems that if RJ added this element in now, it would mess up the storyline too much.  Time travel is its own theme, in and of itself.  RJ already has made this series too complex, and adding time travel would be way overkill.  Almost cheesy.<br /><br />I also disagree with the people that say that the Forsaken know a little about this time traveling.  I don't see any evidence of this.  If they did, they could have easily gone back into time and done anything they had wanted, including stopping Rand, stealing sa'angreal from the AoL, ect.  <br /><br />While I agree that time travel might theoretically be possible through gateways, when it is practically applied, I just don't think the idea holds very well.  It just raises way too many questions by itself.  And RJ doesn't need to raise any more questions now, he needs to tie up all his loose ends.<br /><br />Otherwise, however, it was an enjoyable theory.  It had entertainment value.  For that reason, and for the reason of LitN's close attention to detail, I voted it 'Yes.'<br /><br />flame away<br /><br />-MC<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 19:25:06
subject: <b>Time travel is impossible in WoT</b>
body:
The Dark One said in the prologue to LoC, that even he could not step outside time.  He could not go back in time and rescue Rahvin.  If he thinks it's not possible, then it very likely isn't.  Don't forget, he was afraid of Rand cleansing the taint, when all the Forsaken were laughing off the possibility.  As his statement about time travel could only dishearten Demandred, who was having reservations about balefire, there is no reason for him to lie at that moment.  And, yes, Moridin believed some possible things were impossible, but who says the DO would reveal everything to him?  He can be awfully paranoid about the Chosen-if they would turn traitor once the taint was gone, why would they have signed on with the DO years before anyone had any idea of the taint?  Also someone suggested that Aviendha &amp; co. might have gone ahead in time by a day, but if that was true they would not have witnessed the Seanchan conquest the same day they used the Bowl.  Mat saw them come in on the same day the girls left, and the girls saw them attacking with the power, after using the Bowl.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 22:37:40
subject: <b>If LitN's theory is true...</b>
body:
We know that the way men and women travel significantly differ: male traveling is described as boring a hole through the pattern, while female traveling is described as making two places very similar and overlapping them.  We also know that men and women, on average, have different strengths.  Ok...<br /><br />One common theory for time travel is the use of wormholes.  From what I understand, a wormhole is essentially a short-cut through space-time.  To me the wormhole theory is akin to how male Aes Sedai travel.  Therefore, one can make the assumption that a slight modification on the method used for distance traveling (for men) could be used for time travel: bore a hole through the pattern just as a wormhole cuts through the space-time continuum.<br /><br />Accordingly, Avi's difficulties in creating/holding the time travel weave are because she is not a man.  Since the male way of traveling is closer to time-travel through a wormhole than a woman's way of traveling, it should be easier for a man to create/hold the weave.  Avi discovered the female equivalent, but since the female version of traveling is different, time travel would hence be more difficult for women.<br /><br />I know that I'm making a lot of assumptions, like time travel through wormholes and that a man could time travel easier than a woman (we have no proof).<br /><br />But anyway, it's a thought, and I like the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 00:29:03
subject: <b>Let me try to explain this again.</b>
body:
A coord is a line drawn inside a circle that does not cross though the center point. <br /><br />Ok, lets try an example. It's 2:00pm and Elayne is on the way to the library so she can go read a book. On the walk, she runs into Avi at 2:05pm. They end up getting into an argument and Avi decides she wants Rand for herself and kills Elayne a 2:10pm. To get away from the scene, she opens a gateway and ports back to the waste, when she does this, the reletive time for Avi is actually 2:00pm.<br /><br />Still with me? Ok, now because Avi went back in time, she was never there to mee Elayne at 2:05pm in the first place. Elayne is back alive, and on her way to the library. It's kinda like reverse balefire (oh boy).<br /><br />Now, Cannoli makes a good point, about the DO not being able to step outside of time. So, while I still love the theory, I guess it means now that channelers would have to have one up on the DO, and I guess there is no reason that they can't, but still. *shrug*.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 08:05:01
subject: <b>about the sun</b>
body:
i don't have much of an opinion on this theory, but i have a comment on the sun and a question. <br /><br />first the question: was it morning or afternoon when she made her gateway?<br /><br />secondly: if it was morning and the sun appeared LOWER than elayne remembered that would mean that they arrived EARLIER than Avi made the gateway b/c the distance Traveled was not that great. if it was morning when they left then this fact alone would prove your theory. <br />if it was afternoon it could still be strong evidence for some manipulation of time considering the relatively small distance that was Traveled and the short time it took to get everyone through the gateway.<br /><br />please forgive my ignorance on the subject but i rarely re-read any of the POV's of Elayne, Nyn, or Avi as i find them tedious and uncomparably boring.<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-18 08:09:40
subject: <b>OK, if this theory is true</b>
body:
Then maybe Aviendha can make Portal Stones? In tGH, when Rand and co. use the Portal Stone to travel to Toman Head, they go forward at least a couple of months. So maybe Aviendha will be able to make them.<br /><br />Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 09:53:30
subject: <b>Well, at the very least this theory is original.</b>
body:
At least, I haven't heard it before. I can't say that I agree with it. It would certainly be interesting, and the arguments used to support it are convincing. But I can't be swayed that the sun setting thing was just elayne's frustration that it had taken so long, and Avi's trouble forming the weave was just a mental block. OTOH, if you turn out to be right, then you have every right to say &quot;I told you so.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 10:29:38
subject: <b>Just a few things</b>
body:
Glad to see I stirred up some debate here. I would like to add that I did not in any way try to slant this theory in my favor to fulfill my own beliefs. Personally, there would be no better way to screw-up this story, than to introduce rampant use of time-travel. I hope that it is an accidental thing that Avi does, that she is unaware of, that will only be used as a plot device to fulfill the prophecy.<br /><br /> A few more things. When I first posted this theory on the MB, I mistakenly said that it was morning. The truth is, it was afternoon. So, if the sun appeared lower in the sky, as Elayne stated, it would appear that they made a jump into the future. This would eliminate the paradox of being in two places at the same time. They &quot;skipped over&quot;, that period of time. My apologies for any misunderstandings.<br /><br /> Some people have stated above, that it took a long time to get through the gateway because there were so many of them to get through. This is not the case. There were 20 Windfinders, 5 AS and their warders, Avi, Elayne, Nynaeve, Birgitte, Lan, and the Knitting Circle(which I believe was only 13 people), and some servants(it doesn't say how many). Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 people. About the size of a large classroom. As soon as the gateway was open, they start going through. I would say a fair amount of time for that few people to take the few steps required to go through, would be less than 15 minutes(a movie theater with a couple hundred people empties out faster). The trip itself is instantaneous. Not that much time elapsed to notice a difference in sun position. It was also mentioned by someone above, that they may have Traveled farther east than I said. I used the map on p.252 of the HB edition of ACoS for my reference. The only farms and groves that are shown are just above the Rahad. According to the scale at the bottom of the map, going 6 miles in a NE direction would put you in the middle of them. Not a very great distance at all. <br /><br /> I included the difficulty that Avi had, and Cadsuane's remarks, because RJ made a point to tell us about them. Caddy says it's hard to re-learn a weave a second way, if not impossible, and it usually doesn't work as well. The part about it not working as well, implies that it does not always do the same thing as a normal weave would.<br /><br /> In my mind, there are two parts to using the power. 1) The thought(the weave you want to make),and, 2) The Weaving(the exertion of energy). Once you have learned how to do a weave, it implants part of it on you(the thought of how you did it). That is why it is so hard to re-learn a different way, according to Caddy. We should all know this by our own experiences. You do the same job day after day, with little thought. Then a new manager wants you to do it his way. Now, you have to think about what you are doing more. Concentrate harder. But, are you expending any more energy? No. Just more thought. Cadsuane does not say that it takes more power to do the weaving. She says it is difficult to learn. It should not require more power unless she is doing something other than just Traveling.<br /><br /> Asmodean's &quot;A dream of a dream&quot; statement about gateways is rather ambiguous. It could imply anything. I included it because of that. Perhaps the AS in the AoL knew the dangers of Traveling into the past. Maybe it was even banned. But one thing I have always wondered about, was Ishmael's knowledge of future events. Like sending Hawkwings armies across the ocean and &quot;sealing two dooms&quot;. Or how about the DFS, where he implants thoughts in Bors's(Carridin) head. The one that comes to mind there is when he sees Mat in Ebou Dar, and the memories come rushing back to him. He sees the Horn of Valere associated with Mat. The DFS was way before Mat blew the Horn. How did he know? Foretelling doesn't fit. It is a rare Talent, and we have seen how vague it is as well as how infrequent they come. Dreamwalking is just as rare, and things that are more distant in the future are harder to see according to the Wise Ones. Where does Ishy's knowledge come from? Obviously not the DO, if he can't step outside of time. Or, does everyone think that Ishmael knows nothing of future events and I'm way off base?<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 11:44:51
subject: <b>I think Ishy</b>
body:
<br /> Must have known that at some point in the future the Dragon was going to be reborn, and that he had to be there to stop him. He had quite obviously read the Prophecies of the Dragon and was able to alter them and even create the Seanchan empire, but base line - he knew a lot of what to expect when the Dragon was to be reborn. So he strated planning. He tried to turn the Dragon to the DO, which he knew to be the olny was he could win the war, no idea why he didn't use comuplsion ir the weave that Verin uses, but mah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> . So he got a certain amount of info from the prophecies. <br /> Now, I don't think that to be a dreamwalker that you have to see in the future; they are two seperate talents. <br /> Next, the DO stepping out of time, isn't he already outside time at the moment - and so unable to effect it? The whole reason that the foresaken did not age was because the wheel did not touch them, they were out of the wheel of time, out of time. The DO can't step out of time in the world because he isn't in it, and wouldn't be able to effect it anyway. If you want proof of this check the last couple of chapter in EoTw &amp; The Guide.<br /><br />That's my now 6 cents<br /><br />Dudes - This is getting expensive <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 11:54:45
subject: <b>Great points at the end there Dodge</b>
body:
If the DO could get ahold of time, he would remake it in his own image. *smack head* why didn't I remember that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 12:29:34
subject: <b>No gateway???</b>
body:
If Avi did open a gateway/time portal back in time.<br />She made it back to a point in time she had not yet made the portal.<br />So if she has not yet made the portal how did she get there.<br /><br />As the DO says you cannot go back in time.Its not logical.<br />I guess we need to look into those pages again for more clues to get a actual time stamp on when things happened.<br /><br />Going forward though. That is another thing. It might be posible. Though doesn't hep the theory much.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 14:07:04
subject: <b>Well I don't know</b>
body:
about Time Travel in general in the WoT, but I think I have evidence to show that Aviendha's gateway didn't take them forwards or backwards in time.<br /><br />The gholam can feel the power used not only at the gateway, but further north too, where the gateway comes out. If they travelled through time it wouldn't have felt both at once.


created: 2002-11-18 14:52:11
subject: <b>adding to three in a boat</b>
body:
To add to the comments of Three In A Boat:<br /><br />All of the women who can channel were only at the farm for at most a matter of a couple hours (depending on how long it took to use the bowl).  If Avi created a portal to the past, they would have been long gone by the time the gholam felt the channeling to the north (along with all the Seanchan in Elayne's explosion).  If Avi created a portal to the future, the channeling would not have happened for another 23 or some odd hours.  I am assuming that the women at the farm would not channel strong enough to be felt from that far away, and so the channeling the gholam felt was from the gateway.<br /><br />I was sitting the fence on this one until this point was raised, now I have to disagree with the theory, though I like the originality of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 16:25:08
subject: <b>could what the gholam feels be them using the bowl?</b>
body:
If they went back in time, and then later use the bowl, it could be they are using the bowl at the same time they went to the past. LOL, this is so nuts. This theory gets wilder as it goes. Also, the gholam would have to be really sensitive to feel the gateway open that far to the north, right? (6 miles was it?) But the bowl, now that used tons of power. I just don't know anymore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 17:08:23
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Its entirely possible. Good evidence as well. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-18 23:12:09
subject: <b>and there is that...</b>
body:
I read the entire escape from Ebou Dar up to the Gholam feeding on Madic, the guy Moridin killed, and if the what the Gholam felt in the north was them using the bowl, Moridin would have felt it too. I guess with this latest evidence, I am now swaying to no, Avi can't time travel, she just has a block. A block because the first time she used a gateway she was running from Rand, and it shames her that she wanted to be caught. Oh well, it was a fun theory while it lasted <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 01:25:55
subject: <b>That's why they're called theories</b>
body:
Nice catch with the gholam. I didn't catch that earlier myself. However, it is interesting to note that they rode their horses for a couple hours after leaving the gateway, to get to the farm(I'm assuming northward still). After they use the Bowl, the Seanchan are there almost immediately after. And they are not riding, they are on foot. I reread that part again after reading Three in a Boats post. It doesn't appear to take them long to use the Bowl,(it covered two pages in my HB edition). It just seems that they are there too soon if they had that long of a ride, and the Seanchan are on foot. Plus, we know they didn't start the invasion until after they had left the stableyard. How did their forces get so far north so soon, when coming in from the south, on ships, that would have had to be disembarked from? They would have had to be following on their heels to get there so fast, when they would have no reason to head that way,(there was nothing up there except farms), until they sensed the power being used. None of the channelers at the farm felt the damane channeling before they started using the Bowl. After they finished using the Bowl, they did.<br /> <br /> There are other possibilities of course. It could have taken them longer to use the Bowl than it appears. And the gholam could have been sensing women already at the farm using the power also.<br /><br /> One thing we all learned though, and that was how far away a gholam can sense channeling. That's pretty impressive. And a little scary.<br /><br />A little more Light in the Night<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 17:50:05
subject: <b>How does Ishy know the future...</b>
body:
... 'cause the future is also the past remember, so Ishy and the DO have been through it all many times, they know exactly what will happen, which is why they will win <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> sort of like the movie Groundhog Day. And for those who said you can't travel back in time, since the wheel only moves forward - just travel forward in time almost an entire cycle, and you'll be effectively back in time. LitN - you said that a new weave isn't harders in effort, just thought - isn't using the One Power thought? That could easily explain why Avi found it 'harder'. And Avi's talent of unweaving weaves - didn't Moiraine do that in the very first book? She set the ward around everyone in the blight, and then when they left in the morning she removed it to prevent any residue being left behind.


created: 2002-11-19 18:17:30
subject: <b>Adrian</b>
body:
You are right on about Moiraine unweaving that weave way back in EOTW. Good job remembering that, seeing as how it ties in nicely with the theory.<br /><br />I agree with the theory. Yeah, exactly how did the Seanchang get to the farm as quickly as they did? The raken were only a few minutes ahead of the people coming on the ground. How fast does a raken travel? Is it in the Guide anywhere? I would assume that they travel at about 50 mph whereas a horse can do 30 mph.<br /><br />Now, assuming that they rode (on horses) to the farm, and that they were only a few minutes behind the raken, does anyone have an explanation for this? I would guess that Avi's gateway did involve some sort of time travel, which allowed the Seanchan to reach the farm in a matter of minutes.<br /><br />Otherwise, I'm not sure, but maybe someone who is more knowledgeable than I am about WOT has an answer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 23:37:47
subject: <b>Since ....</b>
body:
everyone is in on this, so I will sit this one out.  Three is the boat???  where have you been???  Never thought I'd see you again I have to admit.  Good on you.<br /><br />  I agree though that Elayne's comment cannot be brushed aside.  It looks like something to look at closely.  As I said earlier, it looks like you guys have it in hand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 03:26:28
subject: <b>Just a different from of the weave for traveling</b>
body:
Just a different from of the weave for traveling<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath to spit in Sightblinders's eye on the Last Day.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 10:41:25
subject: <b>Using the power</b>
body:
This is to Adrian. I think I understand what you are getting at, but I don't agree. The act of using the power may start with a thought. But, once they form and hurl a fireball, do they have to hold the thought until it reaches the target? Must they think about each bolt of lightening until it hits the ground? This would be very cumbersome. <br /><br /> The point you made is valid and arguable. I guess the question would be, how many things can you think about at once? Is brain capacity ( I.Q. ) the determining factor? I remember Rand in the Stone of Tear weaving 12 flows at once. Egwene was able to handle about 3. Is Rand a genius? Egwene retarded? Not from the evidence I have seen. (of course, some might argue the point about Egwene.)  <br /><br /> Here is a quote from tSR: &quot;Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more difficult than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have been weaving a dozen. He did not even look tired, yet exertion with the Power took energy.&quot; tSR, Playing with Fire, HB, p.106. <br /><br /> Here is a another quote from tSR, Egwene is talking to Rand: &quot;How did you set fire to those tables?&quot; Rand's face took on a pained expression. &quot;I don't know.&quot; He sounded embarrassed. &quot;When I want fire, for a lamp or fireplace, I just make it, but I do not know how. I don't really need to think to do things with fire.&quot; That almost stood to reason. Of the Five Powers, Fire and Earth had been strongest in men in the AoL, and Air and Water in women; Spirit had been shared equally. Egwene hardly had to think to use Air or Water, once she had learned to do a thing in the first place. But the thought did not further their purpose.&quot; tSR, Playing with Fire, HB, p.108. <br /> <br /> &quot;I don't really need to think to do things with Fire.&quot;<br /> &quot;Egwene hardly had to think to use Air or Water.&quot;<br /> &quot;The thought did not further their purpose.&quot;<br /> <br /> That is what I base my opinions on. I think these quotes show that using the Power is not just thought. It is a physical ability. It is why they get tired from channeling. This is why the author goes on and on about strength in the Power. The stronger you are, the more you can do. And we know that Aviendha is strong. This is why I say that it should not take all of Aviendha's strength to make a gateway. Only more thought about the weave.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night<br /><br /> Nice to see you are still around Columbo! Have you been sick?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 11:50:40
subject: <b>Columbo!</b>
body:
You go on about where has Three is the boat been but you have been so scant too! Where have you been yourself? Good to see you back on TP, I missed your wit and comments.<br /><br />On topic: I still like this theory alot, even if I no longer think they went back in time. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 12:57:06
subject: <b>Correct me if I'm wrong, but ...</b>
body:
If I'm not mistaken (since I don't have my books with me and it's been a while since I read that passage, I very easily could be wrong), when Aviendha made the gateway at the palace and they all stepped through into the clearing, the Seanchan hadn't actually landed yet.  However, shortly after their use of the Bowl of the Winds, the Seanchan come out in force.  From her gateway to the use of the Bowl to their escape to Andor, wasn't the whole time less than one day?  If it was, then the Seanchan didn't have time to land, organize, notice their use of saidar, and come after them.  This would appear to lend credence to your theory - however, it might be that Aviendha's time-travel/gateway had the opposite effect of what she needed - they lost time.<br /><br />Anyway, since it's been over a year since I read that passage the details have become fuzzy to me.  Flame away!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 13:10:06
subject: <b>Correction ...</b>
body:
What I meant to say at the end there is this:  it appears they went forward in time, which would explain why the Seanchan appeared so quickly.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 17:22:22
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I have to admit the first time I read that passage I just assumed they had &quot;lost time&quot;, ie went forward in time.  I don't really remember why I thought that so I am going to go back and reread the section...but it was probably Elaine's comment.  <br /><br />As I have said, I don't really remember why I thought this, but I do think Aviendha made a gateway into the future...which would be far easier as a plotline than going &quot;back&quot;.  That way it isn't too powerful of a tool...who would want to lose days, months or even years on purpose unless there was great need.  Going back would open up way too many loopholes; going forward can be used judiciously to further whatever plotline Mr. Jordan has in mind without becoming cumbersome or worrying about characters running into themselves and dying of fright <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But if this theory is correct in that Aviendha can Travel/gateway to the future I don't really see it becoming more than a secondary plotline in case Mr. Jordan needs an out for something. I definitely DO NOT believe she travelled back in time b/c that concept in and of itself is too complex to try and tackle along with all the other concepts in the WOT universe.  <br /><br />But hey, you never know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Belgaria <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br />a newbie to wotmania but loving it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-20 18:23:30
subject: <b>'exact'</b>
body:
Aviendha practiced the weave in front of Elayne repeatedly until she had it exactly. If Aviendha were doing some trippy, far out time traveling weave, Elayne surely would have noticed a discrepency.


created: 2002-11-20 22:34:15
subject: <b>Job change...</b>
body:
has kept me from WOT.  Windsor, I'm your huckleberry.  Thanks for the nice words.<br /><br />Aviendha creates the gateway as she had the time she ran from Rand, does she not?  Avi's gateway affects her diferently as a result.  She has created something.  <br /><br />Was Elayne wrong about the time change?  Maybe, maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-21 06:13:40
subject: <b>Damn...</b>
body:
All this discussion has addled my brain.  Great theory (even if I don't agree), beter than most of the garbage out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">E.M.T.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-21 15:12:48
subject: <b>Seanchan</b>
body:
As to the Seanchan arriving so quickly...for a people obsessed by controlling those who channel, especially so in their return to Randland (did I just say that?!?  Ack...), it is only natural that they would come running with all possible speed to the farm.  I would suspect that the sheer amount of channeling would have been noticeable by the damane, who in turn alerted their suldam, etc...<br /><br />My basic point being - the use of the Bowl of the Winds drew the Seanchan down upon the farm as quickly as they could possibly get there.  If you had such a fetish for leashing channelers as they do, you'd have come running as well.


created: 2002-11-22 18:53:37
subject: <b>The Seanchan and Astronomy</b>
body:
The Seanchan likely appeared in such a timely manner, because they were airlifted in by to'raken.  We know this because of the POV of a morat'raken named Segani at the end of &quot;Threads&quot;.  As they were making their landings in Ebou Dar it seems reasonalble they had the &quot;Fists of Heaven&quot; and several sul'dam and damane ready to enter the countryside.  This stands up under further examination because only &quot;dozens&quot; of Seanchan crossbowmen arrived at the farm with only three sul'dam/damane pairs. I think this is a reasonable number to be airlifted in using the to'raken in such a short amount of time.  If the Seanchan had time to march, or ride, in, they probably would have sent many more soldiers and channelers. After all, there was an entire circle of women channeling into the bowl, and the damane would know approximately how much power was being used.<br /><br />Also, a note about astronomy: As you move north or south you may also notice a change in the position of the sun.  Areas of nothern latitude experience much less daylight during the winter months, until you hit the arctic circle, which experiences no daylight during the winter.  I don't know how far the Farm is from Ebou Dar, but this could also explain the change in position that Elayne noticed.<br /><br />Diomedes<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Athena made a stream of fire flare from Diomedes shield and helmet like the star that shines most brilliantly in summer after its bath in the waters of Oceanus - even such a fire did she kindle upon his head and shoulders as she bade him speed into the the thickest hurly burly of the fight.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 00:13:20
subject: <b>Think Logically.</b>
body:
*I didn't read the previous posts*<br /><br />They changed positions geographically, so it stands to reason that the sun would appear differently.  Thats all, nothing more.


created: 2002-11-24 15:44:58
subject: <b>OMG WISHFUL THINKING</b>
body:
ok lets see logical  ideas..<br /><br />RJ made a mistake (YES your great gfod has made them DOH)<br /><br />Ok they ,made the TP in THE AFTERNOON ..not the morning 15 mins to get them all in throught the GW...hardly lets see 80 ppl iwith baggage,horses throught a Gateway that the had to go throught one by one...in 15 mins as someone stated nope..not gonna happen... it takes longer then the andorian shank thinks thus the lower sun..<br /><br />The Seanchean WERE IN the city... ok was it just me or did the women corner Mat...then e goes off..and a wall falls on him...at the same time the women are leaving..hmm seems the they were in the city by the time the portal was made..  <br /><br />Yes To'rakar drop works we saw it before in the Fortress of light invasion..(the Monsters on the roof letting ppl off) so we KNOW the seanchean do such things..<br /><br />Seachean taking a day to get rdy to go after them..HARDLY we've seen how fast they move.. they don't take more then hours (IF THAT) to take a city...  The feel the gateway the rush towards it..to'raken rush towards it with ppl... <br /><br />othert things could factor too...<br /><br />BUT OMG WISHFUL THINKING....<br /><br />I mean come on ..the Andorian shank makes a commet that the sun is lower then she expected and you go off on time travel<br />yeah...it must be Time travel... couldn't be RJ rushing to produce BS to fill your mouths with while he takes your money hehe ... <br /><br /><br />(BTW i'm a GMMR convert and realize how crudy the WOT is written now..how RJ hasd no talant and his fans are such idiots... Time traval ...OMG thats funny*


created: 2002-11-25 07:55:11
subject: <b>To OMG, Daymon!</b>
body:
Well uh, let's see if I can write this so even you can understand it.<br /><br /> Mat left the palace and started hunting for Olver at the SAME time the girls headed for the stableyard. <br /><br /> They are now in the stableyard, so let's say Mat is now in Mol Hara square, out in front of the palace. Aviendha is surrounded by the Kin, Windfinders, and Aes Sedai. Does any of them mention sensing anyone using the Power? No! <br /><br /> She makes her gateway. They start through. Not one of them mentions anyone sensing the power being used before they start through or after they step through. Meanwhile, Mat is now out in the town, looking for Olver. Are you still following me? Mat now sees ships being sunk in the harbor, By SEANCHAN using the Power of all things! It has been going on for awhile because some of them are completely down.<br /> <br /> Now let me see. Did you follow all of that. Seanchan sinking ships in the harbor. All those channelers. Damane hurling stuff at Sea Folk ships, Windfinders hurling stuff back. A LOT of channeling going on. If it took them hours as you seem to think to step through that gateway, why didn't any of our group feel anything? <br /><br /> If the Seanchan were already in the city, they should have got our girls before they all got through. They had damane. According to you, it took them hours. It only takes hours for Seanchan to take over a city, you said. Certainly they should have felt Aviendha who was using almost all of her strength to make her gateway. But, no Seanchan appear before they step through. HMMMMM. Maybe it didn't take as long as you seem to think to go through after all. Either that, or the Seanchan have not started attacking yet. Which is it? If they aren't attacking yet, they must still be out at sea, or at least out of channeling range.<br /><br /> Now, let's go back to the girls. After they use the gateway, they are in the clearing. And again, not one mention of anyone sensing the use of the Power. Now, if they didn't notice all the Power being hurled about in the bay before they left the stablyard, shouldn't they have felt it when they get in the clearing? How much time has elapsed? They ride for two hours. Still no mention of the Power being used. Surely by now Mat has a wall on top of him?<br /><br /><br /> They reach the farm. They use the Bowl. <br /><br /> Now, they feel enough channeling that they think all of the Forsaken are on top of them. They make another gateway to Andor. They go through. Three damane appear while Elayne is unweaving it. Not enough to feel like all the Forsaken. In fact, they don't embrace the source until Elayne sees them, so they weren't channeling at all. <br /><br /> So why don't you explain to me what you are trying to say. When exactly were the Seanchan in the city? How fast did they get through the gateway? The Seanchan got to the farm pretty fast. Why didn't they get to the palace before they left, if it took that long to get through? Why didn't they sense any channeling before, or right after they used the gateway? Please don't say they were too far away, because they were riding farther and farther away, and they felt the channeling from the farm. I'm sure there is an explanation, and I eagerly await your reply.<br /><br /> Before you start to explain all about the to'raken, and how fast they are,(about twice as fast as a horse, by the way), you better see how big they are. They can be nine feet high at the shoulder when crouching. They are much larger than raken, which are considerably longer than a horse. Not something you would have on the deck of a sailing ship, not with the rigging and sails. That's not all. They need to run about a hundred paces while flapping their wings, before they can take off. Do you know what that means? The ships that the to'raken are on would have to dock at a pier(they have a deep draft for deep sea voyages). You are not going to unload one of those big things on a longboat. That would take a little time, especially if the to'raken are belowdeck in the hold. And they have to have room to take off(long enough and wide enough). <br /><br /> While I'm at it, I might remind you that Robert Jordan has mentioned several times throughout this series, about time variations. <br /> 1) The Ways: Time flows differently in the Ways.<br /> 2) Portal Stones/Alternate Worlds: Spend one day in one, and find twenty years has passed here. Or, spend twenty years there, and find that one day has passed here.<br /> 3) Tel'aran'rhiod: Time works differently here as well. <br /> <br /> Would one more way be out of the question?<br /><br /> Now lets take a look at gateways. Are they all the same? Is the gateway Rand uses for Traveling, the same as the one he makes to Tel'aran'rhiod? No. Here is a quote from tFoH: <br /> <br />&quot;A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel-he knew now that was what he had done-into the throneroom. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.&quot; tFoH, The Threads Burn, HB, p.663.<br /><br /> ALL GATEWAYS ARE NOT THE SAME.<br /><br /> Now read the part about Avi making the gateway. &quot;She motioned as though opening tentflaps. That was no part of the weave Elayne had taught her. But it was almost all she could recall of what she had done herself so long ago.&quot;<br /><br /> She added to Elayne's weave, with her own memory of what she had done before.<br /><br /> If you are going to flame a theory, at least try to say something that has some merit. I was not impressed by anything you offered as evidence, if that is what you want to call it. I really liked the way you waited until it was no longer on the &quot;new theory&quot; post before you put this last bit up. Maybe her gateway isn't a time portal. It is only a theory. But I think I at least put forth some proof that it could be. If you don't like The WoT series, that's fine. Go read GMMR, whoever that is. I read a trilogy by George R.R. Martin once or twice, and guess what? Turns out it isn't a trilogy! Imagine that! I even heard it's going to be six books now! Somebody must be screwing us readers again! <br /><br /> Light!   <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 15:20:30
subject: <b>Occam's Razor</b>
body:
Occam's razor says that this is probably not true.<br /><br />Side note for Dodge:  Some of the Forsaken WERE hit by time.  If you'll remember, the second and third forsaken introduced into the series were incredibly old and withered.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-27 12:38:18
subject: <b>The other portal she makes</b>
body:
Just a quick note, but when Avi makes her other portal, she travels WEST, so it should be earlier than in Caemlyn, yet when they, uh, finish, the sun is just rising. At the time I thought this was just a rather lame joke, but what if it isn't? Also, here she doesn't maintain the gateway, Rand blocks it.<br />The Forsaken may not have returned to the AoL because the weave requires more Power the further back you go, like Balefire.<br /><br />Blood Bladud <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-28 19:48:39
subject: <b>a question</b>
body:
After spending quite a bit of time reading these posts, i started to feel rather pathetic.  First because I actually know what you're talking about, and second because I actually care.  Anyway, I believe someone mentioned this before, but their explanation really wasn't adequate for me.  How is it that when Aviendha visits Seanchan, the area is wrapped in winter, while &quot;Randland&quot; (for lack of a better term) is wrapped in a perpetual state of summer?  And btw, I don't buy the whole idea that the DO can't affect the whole world's climate.  We've seen several times that distance isn't really an issue to Him.<br /><br />P.S. I'd like to talk to the Quantum Physics guy, as there are a few points upon which i very much disagree.


created: 2002-12-06 03:09:34
subject: <b>Woh... what about...</b>
body:
Ok I always thought that the change in the Source in this area was due to the explosion of Elaynes portal... But what if it is really due to Avi's time travel...  Forwards or backwards doesn't mean much to me as of yet... moving forward in time is just as wierd as not.  (If there are infinite threads of the pattern, and if everything that CAN happen does happen, then Avi COULD have made a gateway in another dimension EARLIER than she made one in this dimension, and possible she could be traveling to a DIFFERENT dimension where she made it EARLIER... though that's really complicated) but if it IS like balefire, then it would have some wierd effects.  I don't buy the different weave taking more power... that doesn't make sense.  a WEAKER person made a small gate.  Avi isn't a weaker person.  Nyn does her healing with all 5 elements... perhaps Avi's gateway was made with a Gateway and Balefire (perhaps what she was connecting was THIS world with a DIFFERENT world, and making them the same for a time, and in the different world they made the gateway later or sooner) Who really knows huh?<br /><br />About the Why a girl could make a bridge of air longer than a man... and how you couldn't explain it talking about lumber (I disremember who said it)  Yeah you can... a Woman uses stronger planks in her weave, because she is strong in Air, a Man who is weaker in Air uses Weaker wood, thus it would have a smaller span.  Just as if the Man were making his bridge out of Balsa, while the woman were making hers out of Southern Pine.<br /><br />Pronigious


created: 2002-12-07 13:45:28
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
This is a very interesting idea but I think that it took so much of Aviendha's strength to form her gateway to that farm from Ebou Dar because she had used a different weave when she first traveled to get away from Rand.<br /><br /><br />I LOVE MAT!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">&quot;A kiss is a lovely trick designed by nature to stop speech when words become superfluous.&quot;</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-09 18:58:05
subject: <b>OOOOkay</b>
body:
I'm a bit late, but I'll comment nonetheless.<br /><br />First, I think the difficulty of Aviendha doing this is irrelevant.  Second, learning a second weave doesn't make it work differently, just less well.  Have you ever been to a math class where a teacher shows you some incredibly simple technique for something you've done differently for years, and anybody previously taught by this teacher rather than yours can do it like it's nothing, but you nonetheless prefer the first way you learned it?<br /><br />Actually, that's why it's almost impossible to &quot;convert&quot; a Mac user to Windows, or vice versa.  Despite what either (but especially the Macs) will say, they are both easy, but the way you first learned shall always be easier (well, if you learned it right).<br /><br />I think it's more of a &quot;everybody has different technique&quot; thing, and Aviendha can't jive with Eggy's technique.<br /><br />But that's all very irrelevant circumstancial evidence anyway, let's get to the meat.<br /><br />Next<br /><br />Possible reasons for the sun appearing lower:  <br />She made it up<br />Light-bending effects of gateways<br />ACTUAL time elapsed in the normal manner<br />difference in elevation (they may go from and to a level surface, but that doesn't mean they end up higher, and just because it looks flat, doesn't mean it is, especially at the horizon)<br />Many more<br /><br />Next<br /><br />&quot;We have also seen Rand use gateways to enter Tel'aran'rhiod. So we know that they can be used to reach other dimensions. And what is time, except another dimension? We have also seen time manipulated by other means throughout the series: The Ways, Portal Stones, and Tel'aran'rhiod. So it is not unbelievable that RJ would throw another means of doing this at us. &quot;<br /><br />AHHH!!!<br /><br />You fell into the zealot's fallacy (I named it myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).  This is where you say something, and then say something else totally irrelevant using a different definition of a common word.  That is, you said that gateways enter different dimensions, meaning different planes of existence or parallel realities, so therefore they might cross the time dimension, meaning the locational property of an object along the time axis.  This is the crux of my disbelief for your theory, because I hate seeing this fallacy.  No offense, a common mistake, but nevertheless not one that endears me to the theory.<br /><br />The most convincing argument you make here is the one about Portal Stones.  The Ways and Tel'Aran'Rhiod are different planes (note the non-use of the word dimension) and time passes through them differently, but forwardly.  In Tel'Aran'Rhiod, it is internally consistent but does not always match up neatly relative to the waking world's time.  Einstein would explain (according to me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) that this plane is in constant motion relative to the real plane along at least one (extra-)dimensional (yes, dimensional) axis.  The ways, much like skimming, has a constant time difference with the real world, I forget whether time is faster there or slower.  This would imply that the world of the ways has a slower or faster motion in the physical world than wot's Earth, that is, it is closer or further to it's &quot;sun&quot; or equivalent (assuming identical &quot;sun&quot; size and mass) and thus travels faster or slower, and relatively *gasp* we see different time when instantaneously traveling between these locations.  *whew*.  The Portal Stones, on the other hand, seems to take you for a lifetime in an infinite variety of worlds, and drop you off a week after you came where you intended to be.  Again, though, this is forward-time, and could actually be &quot;missing&quot;, as opposed to gateways, which if they are time portals should allow somebody on the other end to go to the past.<br /><br />Next<br /><br />She already has the talent for residues, a real biggie if you ask me, which I suppose you probably don't.<br /><br />Next<br /><br />&quot;The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.&quot;<br /><br />Well, that's outside the pattern (for males)...which I suppose is, as the DO so adequately put it, &quot;OUTSIDE OF TIME&quot;.  I have to wonder - the maintenance of gateways also seems power-related:  We've seen that they must be tied off or held.  Perhaps the Forsaken do it differently?  Still, this is EXTREMELY circumstancial evidence, and I hereby dismiss it with a wave of my hand.<br /><br />LAST<br /><br />&quot;Where do I think this is leading? If the &quot;Twice Dawns the Day&quot; line from the prophecy is more than just a metaphor, I think it is a very real probability that Aviendha's gateway will be used to this end.&quot;<br /><br />Good one.  I always like these Twice Dawns prophecies, although I must say that my favourites involve eclipses or balefire or resurrection, in reverse order of precedence.<br /><br />STILL, despite my cutting it up, it's a good (though not exactly solid) original theory.  And, you forgot to mention in your thing about time, balefire is the primest of examples.<br /><br />Question:  If your theory is true, can you go back in time and save someone who has been balefired with the balefires back-time resolution happening AFTER the time that you travel to (read it a couple times to make sure you know what I mean), even though their thread is all burned up?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-10 11:11:40
subject: <b>Re: Aviendha's Time-Portal Gateway</b>
body:
This is a comment on Burrs comment.<br />I belive that Aviendha's weave in Ebou Dar is difficult because it's not a clean weave. Aviendha mixes the two diffrent weaves to create a third weave. I think that if she had done the weave exactly like Elayne showed her she wouldn't have any problem because that weave is for a different purpose. Elayne's weave is for Traveling and Aviendha's for both Traveling and Time-Traveling. It must be for both because i cannot see the future world ruled by the Seanchan so they must have Traveled to the Seanchan in a different time.<br /><br />L<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />gain Ablar


created: 2003-01-08 22:36:49
subject: <b>Brings Up A Point That's Been Bothering Me</b>
body:
In FOH when Rand and Avi left the &quot;Far Snows&quot; the sun was just rising in Seanchan. Upon arrival in Cairhien Asmodean informs them that the sun is about two hours away from rising. My problem with this is in my assumption that Seanchan is west (and obviously well north) of Randland therefore the sun would rise in Cairhien before Seanchan.<br /><br />I was also bothered by the fact that RJ had Rand so worried about Avi's gate still being open once he found her. If her gate was no longer available surely he could skim with her back to Cairhien. It might have taken a bit longer, but they were far from trapped.


created: 2003-01-21 22:30:31
subject: <b>I think this has merit</b>
body:
From what I remember Rand was surprised when Avi opened her first portal while fleeing from him that there was snow.<br /><br />Nearly everyone appears to have gone... oh well they are on the other side of the world....but it wasn't winter and they are not on the other side of the equater.  <br /><br />Also, of any of these things there is not mention of going back in time...... they could just as easly go forward (sun is lower = later in the day.<br /><br />This is just my thought without going back and rereading passages.  I could be way off.<br />


created: 2003-01-28 01:26:19
subject: <b>response to Burr</b>
body:
It was Rand who kept the gateway open. As far as we know Avienda let go of the weave as soon as she was through. I think it is atleast possible she time travels.


created: 2003-07-13 15:54:39
subject: <b>I wish it was true</b>
body:
I would love it if this theory was true........it would give Aviendha a Talent.  But im not sure that it would be THIS particular Talent.  By book 10 wouldnt we already know???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> may you always find water and shade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 01:42:29
subject: <b>Do you remember the first time she made a gateway....</b>
body:
They woke up and it was dawn in Seanchan. I believe when they went back, it was still dark.... so i think u may be right!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 01:42:31
subject: <b>The Horn-handled Knife</b>
body:
The first time I read that passage I immediately thought of time-travel, and I have been watching the wotmania Theory Posts for years waiting for someone else to get around to posting it. Some of my ideas still haven't been mentioned yet, so here goes:<br /> Has anyone thought to connect this with the horn-handled knife ter-angreal that Aviendha is so attracted to just a bit later? Remember that nearly all of the other ter-angreal selected for special mention from Elayne's pile have seen some sort of use, often significant. We got a few angreal, a &quot;well,&quot; some other ter-angreal, and one very interesting party gag- that red rod that put Elayne in such a fix. A ter-angreal's design is often indicative of its purpose, and the knife's description has two connotations: a blade for parting or cutting and the horn handle for antiquity. Futhermore, Aviendha feels some sort of affinity to it. Whether this is because of some shared connection to time-travel or just because she is a Maiden, we may never know. If one has read the Golden Compass and following works, one will know that undistinguished-looking knives make great props for extraordinary occurrences involving time-space portals. Whatever anyone else may think, there are just too many details connected to this gateway for it to be a coincidence. They may be a &quot;back door,&quot; just in case, but RJ certainly didn't throw them in just for kicks.<br /> In further support of my theory, recalling the incident with Egwene's dream ter-angreal and her test for Accepted, one may remember that having a ter-angreal nearby that is related to either the type of weave or ter-angreal being used can have strange effects. The arguments for Avhienda having time-Traveled instead of just Traveling have already been enumerated, and they are sufficient for my purposes. Accepting this as a plausible explanation, we have with knife ter-angreal even more possibilites to explain both the difficulty of holding the weave and the time-travel itself. The first time Aviendha Traveled she was going on and on that she had to get as far away as possible so she opened a gateway- the FIRST time that any hero uses one- just because she WANTED one. There are few things that she would want more than to get Rand back, and the same sort of thing could certainly happen again. I believe that Aviendha DID time-travel and that it will be significant later on, but I don't think that it will ever be intentional more than once. As much as I personally don't like the idea of  time travel becoming as much a part of WoT as the Dream World's ever-mutable neck-line, SOMETHING has to make the day dawn twice and a natural ocurrence just doesn't fit the scale of the conflict. I think that one way or another, we WILL see someone cut the deck of time.<br />Flame away, but remeber- don't hate . . . participate.<br /><br /><br />&quot;I wish I had a voodoo globe, so I could spin it real fast and freak everyone out.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Why can't ants and caterpillars just be friends? I mean, one eats leaves, and the other eats caterpillars... Oh, wait, I see it. . .&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who lives by the sword should be living by the gun.<br /><br />Two words: Atom. Bomb.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-14 08:53:42
subject: <b>the first time then?</b>
body:
I don't have my books around so correct me if I'm wrong, but...remember the first time Aviendha made a gateway to &quot;get as far away from Rand as possible&quot; or something like that and they ended up in senchan? The possibility that &quot;as far away as possible&quot; would be the other side of the globe seems resonable, and even if it's not the exact other side of earth senchan is far away enough to create a significant difference in the time of day.  If I'm not misstaken (which I just might be, if anyone has their books around check it out) the leave after dusk and arrives in senchan ar approximately the same time. Logically they should've arrived at dawn if they left at dusk. I'ma have to look in to this when I get back home.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> you can french kiss this clenched fist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 13:50:17
subject: <b>It sounds right...</b>
body:
I think that you really have a point there, when she Travels the first time she should end up in a diffrent time zone. I can't check it in the books but I think that it's in the evining in both ends of the Waygate...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat <br />John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the US Navy, 1981-1987 <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 14:42:45
subject: <b>No other characteristics of TAR</b>
body:
While this is an iteresting theory, I don't recall any other observations relating the Blight to TAR, such as it being light out, with out a visible source of light; dynamic things moving, static things staying the same, etc. Maybe it's worth a re-read on my part, but I think that would be worth one of the characters mentioning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 14:44:29
subject: <b>Not bad.</b>
body:
Actually, the Wise Ones tell Elayne and Nyneave that they cannot use need twice to find the same item.  Elayne and Nyneave are relieved to hear this as they thought they were doing something wrong when they couldn't find the Bowl of the Winds a second time in T'A'R.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


