# w_comment

created: 2003-01-17 17:28:02
subject: <b>Some times I just cannot believe this series...</b>
body:
I know this is not the place to put this particular peice of comment.  However, as I was reading the comments about Mesaana it suddenly hit me that this series of books is just great.  I know that the general feeling is that this book is not as good as others he has written.  But when I think of his writting style of giving hints and misleads to us to get us the think and discuss things it just seems so cool.  <br /><br />Back to the posting.  I think that Mesaana is already introduced to us.  Which character she is I have no clear idea.  I do agree that she was raped.  (in his interview jordan says of SH and Mog the she was raped &quot;...among other things.&quot;  So I also feel that raped is just the begining of it.)<br /><br />Just like a previous response, if I were a betting man I would pick Danelle.


created: 2003-01-17 22:59:20
subject: <b>Listening in</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One thing suprised me when Mesaana was summoned by A. From Winter's Heart we know that Mesaana listens in on every conversation between A and Elaida. However she does not seem to know what happens in the last session. &quot;What is your emergency, child&quot; (page 514 if you want to look) and does not believe A when she talks about Elaida knowing of the Black Ajah. This would give me the impression she was not at the meeting (but then why would she not have spied on it like she did the others I can't find evidence of a ward). Two other important things of note. Number one Shadar Haran ordered A. to find who had found out the Black Ajah; how does he know. Second when Mesanna blocked from channeling and A. sees her face &quot;A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years. She had known Mesaana walked the tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any sign of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name&quot; When I first read this I was confused it implies that Mesaana does not have an ageless face (no Chosen...)but A also still believes her a sister (which implies she has one). If she has no ageless face and she is in her middle years (couldn't have just started channeling) and looks familiar (remember people didn't recognize Suian at all when she lost her ageless face so A can't have seen Mesaana with an ageless face and have this one look familiar) she must not be an Aes Sedai. Of course I may be misinterpreting if her face is ageless or not. Any ideas or clarification? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-19 16:02:50
subject: <b>Re-evaluation</b>
body:
Earlier I said that Mesaana was a green because of her dress.  However, I went back and read through some of the passages in the book and found that a surprising number of Aes Sedai in CoT are wearing their colors as embroidery on another color dress.  Someone mentioned this earlier when they said that the common color was bronze.  This makes me go back to my earlier theory that it is Danelle.  In a previous book (sorry, I can't remember which one), Alviarin brushes past Danelle and describes her as the dreamy young brown sister who had no friends even in her own Ajah.  A few pages later, Alviarin is trying to puzzle out who Mesaana could be masquerading as and she thinks that it must be a sister who has few friends. (that's a pretty obvious clue) Also, we know that one of the reasons Mesaana turned to the shadow was because she was found &quot;unfit for research&quot; but was allowed to teach.  What does the Brown Ajah do?  Research.  So, where would she fit most comfortably?  As far as hiding their true strength, I think that's entirely possible.  Of course, someone once asked RJ this and his answer was, as always, RAFO.  In short, Mesaana is Danelle and hiding her true strength.


created: 2003-01-22 00:22:41
subject: <b>my 2 cents...</b>
body:
I'm not sure who Mesaana is, however if she is an Aes Sedai...<br />1) We know the Chosen do not have ageless faces, which explains the &quot;just short of her middle years&quot; comment from Alviarin<br />2) Mesaana looks familiar to her, possibly a face she has seen before but with an ageless look.  If Mesaana was disguising herself as an Aes Sedai, she would have lost the weave at that time, which explains why Alviarin almost recognizes her<br />3) It seems unlikely that Mesaana is an Aes Sedai who has been with the Tower for many years.  Since when are full Aes Sedai popping up out of nowhere?  Yes, she could have disposed of someone and taken her place in disguise... but then, why did Alviarin recognize her real face?<br />Based on this, if Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, than she is fairly newly raised, hiding her ability, and showing the beginnings of an ageless face.  How she got around the ceremony and Oath Rod... I don't know...<br /><br />Of course, it seems much easier for her just to be a noble woman or random servant.  The sisters holding the rebels and hunting the BA kept commenting on servants hearing their convo while using those passages hidden behind tapestries... it would be easy for a servant to slip away and overhear certain conversations...<br /><br />Just my thoughts... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> Avi Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Bela <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br />(&quot;Avienda&quot; ~~ no 'h' please!)


created: 2003-01-24 00:45:09
subject: <b>More Mesanna Clues</b>
body:
Particular emphasis is placed on Mesaana's ability to <br />1) hide her ability to channel<br />2) channel without others noticing.<br /><br />I think this is strong evidence she is using this to hide as someone who cannot channel - a perfect disguise.  Otherwise, there is very little point to mentioning this ability.  <br /><br />Mesaana was using both these abilities when she was summoned &#8211; almost certainly as part of her disguise.  Why else would she block her ability?  Mesaana knows Alvarin knows she can channel.  If Mesaana somehow hid her strength, and not her whole ability, would she have showed up after being summoned as being weaker in the power instead?<br /><br />Mesaana channeled to eavesdrop into the hall and hear what went on.  The book did not say the hall was shielded, Mesaana might even be able to get through a shield, and Mesaana could channel without being discovered, as mentioned above.  This is far more likely than her being a sitter.<br /><br />Mesaana does not have an ageless face.  She would not have wanted to kill Alvarin unless this was the face of her disguise, as mentioned above.<br /><br />This limits her to novice, accepted, wilder, or newly raised Aes Sedae, if her alter ego channels.  I can&#8217;t believe a new lady could show up, without the ageless face, and simply started calling herself Aes Sedae or accepted!  So Mesaana&#8217;s alter ego didn&#8217;t start out Aes Sedae or accepted.  It seems unlikely Mesaana faked the accepted test, and she certainly didn't take the oath rod!  It is possible she compelled people to say she passed the tests, but unlikely.  With an ageless face, she could have replaced an older Aes Sedae without many friends, but not newly raised Aes Sedae &#8211; too many teachers in the tower to remember her.  Without a doubt, she is not Aes Sedae or accepted.<br /><br />Mesaana could simply be a middle-aged novice, but it is far more likely her alter ego cannot channel.  A middle aged novice could not randomly disappear unnoticed, would be watched closely, would have to do menial work  - and as mentioned above, hiding her strength in the power would not be easy.  Also, Mesaana gains nothing by her alter ego being able to openly channel, as she can channel without being noticed.<br /><br />Alvarin did see Mesaana before - she looked familiar.  So we know Mesaana is in the tower.  Wilders aren&#8217;t in the tower.  That leaves any middle-aged maid, servant or other woman who cannot channel.  There can't be that many, and knowing what to look for should make it obvious.<br />


created: 2003-02-02 14:17:48
subject: <b>Forsaken</b>
body:
<br />&gt; ...rather RJ's comment that <br />&gt; we have enough info to identify <br />&gt; all the Forsaken.<br /><br />Yes... but I asked him personally, face-to-face, and he said flat out that not every Forsaken need be masquerading as someone else.


created: 2003-02-04 15:21:26
subject: <b>Given the MOM</b>
body:
it is still possible that Messana is just about anyone. She doesn't need an ageless face if whe can fake one. I thought the fact that Alviarin didn't recognize her was a huge hint that she wasn't Aes Sedai, but in retrospect, it doesn't mean squat. She could still be posing as a sister, and A wouldn't recognize her w/out her mask. I still like Danelle as the prime candidate, but I also liked the idea that her sister persona was very similar to her own looks, just with an added ageless face, that someone had mentioned earlier.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 03:41:43
subject: <b>This one is easy</b>
body:
Mesaana is the fat cook.  It's painfully obvious.  RJ spent way too much time talking about her in the previous books.  Oh wait, he does that with everyone who isn't an important character.  Seriously, though, it's either Danelle or the cook.


created: 2003-02-08 21:32:02
subject: <b>Bad evidence</b>
body:
How do M. know that A. would be punished by E.? Not a particually difficult one to work out, considering A. has punished E. before, and now A. has had the stole stripped from her. Really this whole thing of punishing A. was probably raised before (in the meeting of the Hall to strip A.), afterall, the Sitters would have gasped in surprise or something if it was really new. Remember it was only a suprise to A. because she was gone, M. had to have know the latest Tower goss, so she didn't need to be at the meeting. Can the foresakan leave a inverted weave spy-camera in E.'s office or something? That would also be an alternative explaination, and would sound like M.


created: 2003-01-10 15:46:04
subject: <b>hah</b>
body:
you get points for the loony theory of the day.<br /><br />This is a very humorous theory, and it made me laugh.<br /><br />Good work<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 16:19:43
subject: <b>Hah Hah...</b>
body:
wrong...<br />For one thing, Fain wouldnt wear a belt sheath, everytime we see him with it, he had it as close to his skin as he could get it,that is when he wasnt holding it.<br /><br />And the other thing was the fact that being skinny doesnt make it Fain.<br /><br />and yes...you do get the loony points.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 18:00:25
subject: <b>No sheath you say?</b>
body:
Of course Fain had a sheath, the dagger did have one after all...<br /><br />But as to why it was empty, maybe he had his dagger drawn like Hanlon thought...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 19:28:33
subject: <b>I dont know .....But</b>
body:
If we accept that it was Fain who died it could be that Mordeth seperted from Fain at the time of the city being destroy and now walking the world as he once was.


created: 2003-01-10 20:05:38
subject: <b>Man, you guys are WAY off. . . =)</b>
body:
Remember, Fain WAS described as having a sheath in the beginning - I'm positive of it. Look back to tFoH and when the trollocs were attacking Emond's Field. Fain did. I'm not saying I agree with the theory, but it isn't so far-fetched. That would be just like Jordan. Afterall, now he wouldn't have to tell us what happened to Fain, just like he won't admit who killed Asmo because &quot;someone already posted the right answer.&quot; too bad everyone in the whole bloody books has been fingered as Asmo's killer. anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brutus de Petrovichski<br /><br />If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made of meat???<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 22:38:08
subject: <b>Ummm....</b>
body:
I just finished Winters Heart, and Fain appears near the end.  Right before Rand falls off the roof, and cleans that taint off the Saidin.


created: 2003-01-10 23:25:23
subject: <b>The only reason it is wrong</b>
body:
You could be right.....<br /><br />Except Fain has no reason to be in Caemlyn stalking DF's.  You had me for a second though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 11:39:47
subject: <b>Can't be Fain. Here's why</b>
body:
<i>A rasp of stubble under his fingers told him that it was a man, but no more. Man, woman, or child made no difference to him...yet he wished there had been a mustache or <b>a bulbous nose</b>, anything to...tell him who this fellow had been.</i><br /><br />Fain has a bulbous nose.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 12:02:18
subject: <b>The New Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
Fain is last seen in Far Madding (WH), i.e. in the south east. Cut to CoT and we see Perrin visit a city (can't remeber the name, So Haven or something similar) for supplies. Perrin, and thus this city, is also in the south. It seems to me that the description of So Haven, ghosts, unanturally dim, the people suspicious and unconcerned with cleanliness, seems remarkably similar to the now departed Shadar Logoth and those, such as Fain's Whitecloaks, who were tainted by the presence of the dagger.<br /><br />Conclusion: Fain isn't dead (to have him die like that is completely pointless story wise) he travelled from Far Madding to So Haven (might still be there, might have left, in fact would probably fit in well with Masema's group, possible future story development?)and his/ the dagger's presence there is turning So Haven into a new Shadar Logoth. Whether or not this is because the old one got destroyed or is something which would have happened anyway I don't know, but Fain is alive and well and causing problems.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 19:00:14
subject: <b>Hmmmmmm</b>
body:
The idea about So harbour is interesting.  It would also fit in with the Darkhounds, if they are indeed after Fain.  However, I do not beleive that this is the case.  RAFO at it's finest lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 19:59:50
subject: <b>Padan Fain is very much alive,</b>
body:
And I believe he is fully responsible for events in So Habor. Shadar Logoth is reborn...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 00:25:48
subject: <b>What about Glimmers?</b>
body:
In Glimmers Ituralde is  talking with Altarans and Taraboners. One speaks to him and is described as &quot;was a lean man, with a sharp nose that made a tent of his veil.His eyes were hard, though, and keen.&quot; <br /><br />he is described  - in TEOTW, ch3 THe Peddle - as having &quot;a massive beak of a nose.&quot;  Seems to me that a massive beak of a nose would make a tent in a veil.<br /><br />&quot;he growled, contemptuous.&quot; Sounds like Fain's attitude. <br /><br />the only thing that gets me is the sharp mustaches. But he could have grown them. Some mustaches come in fast. And what is sharp? Small and thin? Sounds like theose could grow pretty quick. Quick enough to get from Far Madding to the meeting spot. And all he needs is a few darkfriends in the group to get him accepted into the group.<br /><br />Oh yeah, and I don't think Ituradale is a Darkfriend<br /><br /><br />Newworld<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-01-12 02:11:42
subject: <b>key word here</b>
body:
The key word that disprove this is that the sheath is a &quot;LEATHER&quot; sheath. Padan Fain's sheath is all encrusted with jewels and gold and stuff. if Hanlon had felt anything like that, he would have investigated further.<br /><br />By the way, when did it mention him being in Caemlyn last?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 06:14:56
subject: <b>Don't agree</b>
body:
Why would the destruction of Shadar Logoth have any physical effect on Padan Fain? Mordeth broke his connection to the city when he hitched a ride in Fain's body. <br /><br />If anything Fain's linked to the dagger, not the city. He's never had to go back, due to becoming weak or anything like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 20:08:59
subject: <b>Fain is near Far Madding</b>
body:
Due to winter he can't get anywhere quickly without Traveling so he could possibly make it to Caemlyn though I doubt it, Aringill would be a better bet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 04:02:23
subject: <b>Fain is alive and unwell...</b>
body:
Remember, we saw Fain w/ Hanlon at the camp with those opposing Rand.  Min had a viewing of him that he would rape again (Path of Daggers, around pg. 700).  If Fain and Hanlon were in cahoots, it would stand that Hanlon would recoginze him if he had stabbed him in the street.  No, Fain is probably alive and still unwell.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">E.M.T.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 15:35:00
subject: <b>The New Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
I agree with those who said that So Habar is the new Shadar Logoth.  I thought that when I first read the discription of the city.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 01:08:55
subject: <b>So Habor</b>
body:
I don't think Fain died in Caemlyn, he has no reason to be there.  He likes to hob knob with powerful rulers that he can subvert.  He might be with Arymilla, but even that's unlikely because she's stupid, not evil.  He could be in Arad Domon, if he's using the Ways, however. <br /><br />Also, Aridhol became Shadar Logoth because first the King, then the people, used the tactics of the Shadow to combat the Shadow.  Kind of like General Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. The people of So Habor aren't combating anyone, or anything, they're just freaked out because there see dead people, like that stupid kid in Sixth Sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 09:32:00
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
&quot;They just freak out because they see dead people&quot;. Do you not find this a little unusual, towns full of dead people are not particularly common in the WoT world, there must be something fairly unique going on to explain it. Possibly could be a 'bubble of evil' but all of the others of these that we have seen have been short, sharp, and violent, where as the So Habour situation appears to be an ongoing one.<br /><br />Given this, the presence of Fain and his dagger would seem the most logical reason. So Haven is not becoming like Shador Logoth in the same as SL did, i.e. by choosing to fight shadow with shadow, but is being corrupted by the presence of the original evil of SL. None the less, the end result should be the same.<br /><br />Oh, and wotenslaved, i think you could be right about those darkhounds. They must be hunting something in the area and if it isn't Perrin then Fain would make sence.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 12:32:58
subject: <b>Fain is NOT responsible for all the ghosts...</b>
body:
unless his powers have grown immensely.  So what some are saying is that Fain has the ability to affect an area of thousands of square miles??  We see ghosts in Andor, just north of Ebou Dar, and in So Habor at approximately the same time.  Fain's power is that of illusions.  How would he create an illusion of individuals he's never met?  Individuals long dead who are easily recognizable by those who knew them?  I don't buy it.


created: 2003-01-14 22:34:24
subject: <b>Defending my theory</b>
body:
First of all Fain was in Caemlyn for Elayne, he knows that Rand loves her and we all know what Fain does to things that Rand loves<br /><br />Perhaps when Shadar Logoth Died Ordeith Died, but Padan Fain lived on, in a somewhat vegetative state, when he saw Hanlon, someone he knew, he lurched forward, Hanlon spits him and he dies with the empty sheath that once held his most precious possession<br /><br />I know that he was in Caemlyn because of the scene where he's talking to a Darkfriend and says something like &quot;I'm gonna have to hurt her, its all Rand al'thor's fault&quot;


created: 2003-01-14 23:21:23
subject: <b>&quot;Letters&quot; Ch 28 Lord of Chaos</b>
body:
That quote comes from Fain while he is in Caemlyn, but Elayne hasn't even left Salidar for Ebou Dar, yet. The women he is going to hurt is the Darkfriend he's about to rape, and he blames Rand because he's a total nut-job by this point.<br /><br />The So Habor thing is not logically Fain's doing.  Yes, the village definitely has something very strange going on, even more than Elayne's Vassel in Andor, and Mat's experience on the road to buy silks for Tuon.  The whole weevil thing is one part that I haven't figured out.  Fain, however, has never shown any kind of control over the dead.  Nor do the ghosts of So Habor bear any resemblence to Mashadar.  Nor do the descriptions of suspicion, anger and hatred that destroyed Aridhol bear any resemblence to the fear and hysteria that plague So Habor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 03:09:28
subject: <b>Ghosts and weevils</b>
body:
The events in So Harbor are probably happening all over the world.  They are at least happening everywhere our characters are.  I would assume there are many other &quot;So Harbors&quot; in the world right now and it is going to get worse.  The DO is touching the world more.  This is coupled with the fact that a seal may or may not have been broken.  Fain has nothing to do with it.  We are, after all, talking about the end of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 10:07:05
subject: <b>Padan Fain was last seen in Far Madding</b>
body:
The assassin send to kill Hanlon was likely a grey man since he didn't have any distinguishing marks.


created: 2003-01-15 10:24:32
subject: <b>Destruction of Fain's Dagger?</b>
body:
Now if Fain's dagger was destroyed just because shadar lagoth was destroyed, then Rand's side would also have been 'destroyed' but it wasnt and hasent even gotten any noticibly better so i really dont think that Fain's dagger was destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ishasora<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Betrayer of Life <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 21:48:01
subject: <b>Wotenslave is right</b>
body:
The Ghost and the weevils and the rats and all the other vermin is just the Dark One exherting more power over the world. NOt only do we see vermin, but we see Shadar Haran, who we now know is the Dark One's actual presence on earth, growing in power. When have we ever before see him exhert so much power away from Shoyul Ghul then when he punished Mesaana? So Havor is not Fain, its just the Dark one exherting his evil influence. The hounds I don't know about. Its clear they aren't after Perrin or anybody else in his little caravan, so who are they after?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 12:35:34
subject: <b>I stand convinced I was wrong about So Habour</b>
body:
The ghosts do seem to be a common problem. I guess the Lord of the Grave is showing us how he got his namesake!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 14:29:15
subject: <b>Another reason why So Habor isn't Fain's doing</b>
body:
In Shadar Logoth Mordeth had the entire population convinced that to beat the shadow you needed to be as hard or even harder. And because of their determination Arid Hol changed into Shadar Logoth. Mordeth couldn't have done it by himself. The people in So Habor don't really fit into that.


created: 2003-01-20 01:44:27
subject: <b>to tyler durden</b>
body:
padan fain was last seen in far madding getting cut by rand's heron-marked sword.  yes, using the ways he could've gone back to camelyn, although we now know that loial has pretty much locked all of the waygates except for a few.  however, the reasons you give for fain being in camelyn are from books 5 or 6 or 7 and the &quot;quote&quot; you give has nothing to do w/elayne.  now, i know you gave the quote just to show that fain was in camelyn, but still that was way back.  fain was last seen in far madding and i would place more stock in him having something to do w/events in So Harbor than simply getting iced by hanlon in some back alley part of camelyn.  he's way too powerful now to let some low level darkfriend take him out anyway.<br /><br />if he is in So Harbor, it would seem like sense that he would be the object of the darkhounds hunt. i was troubled by what they could be hunting! <br /><br />also, fain ain't gonna die until tarmon gaidon.  he is to WOT what gollum is to LOTR.  his greed and self-centeredness are gonna have some major role to play in the good guys winning the last battle. unintentional, like gollum, but important nonetheless.


created: 2003-01-26 08:54:29
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
The last place we saw Fain was in Far Madding, not Camelyn. I highly doubt he managed to get to Andor in time for Daved to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 13:41:46
subject: <b>Are we sure they are ghosts?</b>
body:
This seems to be getting far afield from the original theory but how do we know they are ghosts.  Ghosts seem to me to indicate a dead person, but Mat saw some of the same visions on his way into town with Tuon.  They didn't seem to me like they were dead people or even malicious.  They appeared to be people wlking along the road on their way to Valan's show when they just dissappear.  The other odd thing is that it seems as if Mat is the only one who say them. <br /><br />make me wonder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />-The Pope of Chili Town<br /><br />Why so blue pandabear?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 21:40:18
subject: <b>Taint on Saidar</b>
body:
Towns full of dead people are not particularly common in the WoT world - what about Elayne's vassel? And remember Elayne had the complaint about weevils and meat going off in the palace. And the keepings around the grain Egwene buys is failing, as are the wards against rats in the Tower - the DO is in action again - winter, summer, plague. Or something like that, plus Saidar doesn't work too well anymore - heh heh maybe cleansing the taint allowed the DO to work slow sweet magic on Saidar.


created: 2003-07-23 15:32:52
subject: <b>So Habor</b>
body:
I'm in the So Habor camp, first thing I thought of when they were in town was Fain. The dirty people reminded me of his &quot;Whitecloaks&quot;. Second was the ghosts and his newfound ability to create illusions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I was going up the stairs, I met a man who wasn't there.<br />Wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd go away.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-23 16:29:55
subject: <b>Obvious Clue that Only one other person here has noticed...</b>
body:
Let me reiterate Olu's point:<br /><br />A rasp of stubble under his fingers told him that it was a man, but no more. Man, woman, or child made no difference to him...yet he wished there had been a mustache or a <b>bulbous nose</b>, anything to...tell him who this fellow had been.<br /><br />Fain most definately has a rather large nose.  Plus, there is absolutely no real solid evidence whatsoever that this is true.  Also, it would be so unlike RJ to do that with Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chuck chuck bo buck, banana fana fo fu-...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-30 15:19:24
subject: <b>just...just...</b>
body:
no<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 13:34:39
subject: <b>Ghosts, etc.</b>
body:
People seeing the ghosts are usually described as near a crossroads, or at dawn or dusk.  Remember that in TGH, Liandrin says that the Dark One's power is greatest at dawn and dusk because at dawn, the night dies, and at dusk, the day.  So Habor is particularly affected by the ghosts because it's situated as a crossroads over a river.  The weevils and vermin are a universal problem, as others have said before.<br /><br />The one thing that doesn't jive with the ghosts is that Mat is the only one who sees them on the road.  What's up with that?


created: 2003-01-10 19:31:14
subject: <b>Important side note</b>
body:
Something else to consider with Tuon and her discovery that Suldam can channel. <br />If you look back to the beginning of Winters Heart when Tuon is first ariving. It is said that she took the test to become sul'dam herself and personaly trains some of her damane. <br /><br />I believe that Tuon will learn to Channel herself. <br /><br />This will obviously help her come to grips with it a lot faster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">that that is is that that is not is not is that it is it<br /><br />...When the Screams can't carry far enough <br />When the sands of time burn razor marks <br />When the ice burns cold and I can feel no more <br />...I'll know it's happened again...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 23:21:36
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
You hit that one right on the head.  Way to go.  Of course, RJ will never come right out and say this.  But he is subtle like that.  Toun will come to that understanding and only people such as yourself will know that Setalle is part of that.  Way to go! <br /><br />This totally illustrates one of my points about COT.  So much happens in the background in this series, and this book is a prime example.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 01:43:25
subject: <b>makes good sense Matrimony!</b>
body:
However, I tend to wonder, though, did Setalle know that Tuon could learn to channel?  Is that why she and her became such fast friends, or is it just a nice coincidence?<br /><br />Now if we could just figure out what the deal is between Berelain and the Wise Ones/Rhuarc <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 06:34:39
subject: <b>Berelain wise ones</b>
body:
I always thought that that was all about imprinting some form of the Aiel code of honour on Berelain as I beleive that this code will become important in the new age and that Berelain will be a leader of that age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 07:32:26
subject: <b>Perhaps you're missing a crucial point...</b>
body:
which is that Setalle cannot channel any more ! and is therefore not a (marath) damane.<br /><br />She shouldn't even be able to sense the source (according to the Guide) if she's been burned out, and that made me very suspicious when she thought that she would be able to be a sul'dam. She may just have assumed that she'd miraculously remember how to do it or somesuch wishfulness.<br /><br />But to return to the point, Tuon is associating (I don't recall any POVs that say they like each other) with an ex-channeller (her abilities have ceased to be - sorry !) NOT a channeller, so to assume that she would feel the same about someone who can tap into the Source at any time is assuming a lot.<br /><br />The opportunity for Setalle to act as a mediator is still there though and will probably result in the same effect in the end, i.e. Tuon will not regard women who can connect to the True Source as lesser beings.<br />I think it's going to take the whole female channeller population a while to accept that Saidin is clean though, perhaps Halima will be Compelled to reveal that at some point !


created: 2003-01-12 06:40:35
subject: <b>Anan is *not* a burned out AS.</b>
body:
Anan cannot be  ex-AS. Someone who is stilled can use an a'dam, as in Siuan Sanche + Leane.<br />Anan can't. End of story. <br /><br />


created: 2003-01-12 10:11:57
subject: <b>bah</b>
body:
Anan wasn't stilled.<br /><br />It is believed that she was burnt out.<br /><br />There is a difference.  Stilling is a clean way of losing your ability, whereas burning out is probably a little more messy and might sever you ability so completely that you you have no scrap left in you to be healed.  That is my hypothesis why the a'dam did not work on her.<br /><br />There is simply too much to suggest that Anan was an AS to believe otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 16:27:18
subject: <b>Burned out...</b>
body:
I also agree that Setalle is a burned out AS. She could even be Corean Nedeal the last AS to study Ter'angreal, that was burned out and left the tower. (At least I think that was her name.) She was supposedly burned out about 20 to 30 years ago, that fits in with Setalle's grown children and established life in Ebu'dar. Her being burned out also explain's why Joline thinks that she recognizes her voice in the basement of the Wandering Woman in WH. She says something to the effect of &quot;Have we met before? When you speak and I can't see you, your voice sounds familiar.&quot; (Sorry I'm at work and my books are at home.)<br />Now as to Tuon feeling anything for her in their new relationship; even if a member of the imperial family is found to be marath'damane her name is removed from all records and she is collared, just like any other damane. Tuon being able to learn to channel that is a different story.<br /><br />Does anyone else see the correlation of channelers that are healed by their opposite regaining full strength. Logain by Nyneave, and the three Rand stilled by Damer, all regained their full strength. While Suian and Leane did not because they were healed by a female. Just as thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 17:16:51
subject: <b>If Anan is burned out...</b>
body:
Then since she knew of the Kin she made contact with them in hopes that they would help her find a way to survive. But the years are off. When she meets one of the kin she recongnizes her, and the response back is that she was my great Aunt, that means three generations so the time is closer to 60 to 80 years.


created: 2003-01-13 15:43:12
subject: <b>A note on burning out vs stilling</b>
body:
&quot;It is believed that she was burnt out.  There is a difference. Stilling is a clean way of losing your ability, whereas burning out is probably a little more messy and might sever you ability so completely that you you have no scrap left in you to be healed.&quot;<br /><br />I don't think so.  Like everyone else here I am at work, so am not able to quote the exact page, but somewhere in CoT Egwene mentions how the novices and accepted are no longer as afraid of burning themselves out since they have found a cure for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 20:59:08
subject: <b>burning is different from stilling</b>
body:
it's just a fact i think its glaringly obvious that anan was an aes sedia,there is so many pointers to it I can't be bothered to put them all down anyway i think they are in the FAQ anyway,as for being burnt out also again i agree that is why the adam doesn't work<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 01:21:33
subject: <b>Re: Qoutes on Burning Out</b>
body:
Just because the novices don't think there is any danger to being burned out, doesn't make it so.  Also, way back in LOC, Moghedien doesn't believe that stilling/burn outs can be healed -- there were probably few or no stillings in the AoL since they could use binding rods, and before the War of Power there was no reason to still/gentle anyone.  Possibly burn outs can't be healed turned into neither burn outs nor stilling can be healed.  Possibly they never even tried to heal stillings/gentlings since they already knew burn outs couldn't be healed.<br /><br />Also, Tuon revealed that she trained damane in front of Anan, so Anan knows about Tuon and her abilities.  I don't know where that caveat may lead, but have at it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 02:21:12
subject: <b>Ability</b>
body:
I think that Anan is like Morgase - extremely weak in the power, almost nonexistant ability, but still has a tiny, tiny spark.  She sought out the Kin as a means of a support group - she probably wanted to be AS, but couldn't due to lack of ability, and discovered that she could assist the Kin instead.  I believe that she will somehow guide Tuon through her first touching of the Source.  This also explains how she can use an A'dam


created: 2003-02-01 06:00:34
subject: <b>The secret of the Sul'dam</b>
body:
Tuon's reaction at the end of CoT indicates to me that she knew full well that Sul'dam can channel.<br />Consider<br />' Selucia made an angry sound, though, blue eyes blazing, and dropped the bundle of cloth from her back as she took a step toward Domon. A quick flash of Tuon's fingers stopped her in her tracks, though it was a quivering halt. Tuon's dace was a dark mask, unreadable. She did not like what she had heard, though. '<br />If this is a secret, kept by the imperial family, then Selucia's reaction fits perfectly. After all, knowing the secret surely carries the death penalty.<br />Of course, the reaction my also be due to the implied insult that Tuon is marath damane, however since almost every other Seanchan who hears the secret reacts in disbelief, I find this implausible.


created: 2003-04-27 00:40:33
subject: <b>setalle+ healing</b>
body:
I cannot remember which book but it is a conversation about previous AS who have been burnt out and one by name is mentioned as having been found unconscious and when she came to could not remember what had happened this 20 years or so ago, this AS is Setalle Anan, this is why the kin treat her with such deference and respect. It was a discussion about what had happened to her and the answer was she stayed around for a while and then just went away and was never heard of again. The healing thing seems to me to be obvious however no-one else agrees with me, full helaing is only done by the opposite sex.


created: 2003-04-27 01:05:58
subject: <b>setalle+ healing</b>
body:
Just remembered which book Setalle Anan is mentioned in, Vandene is warning Elayne about all the Ter'angreal in TPoD and mentions Martine Janata, who is Setalle Anan.


created: 2003-05-25 14:32:48
subject: <b>Setalle Anan is not like Morgase</b>
body:
Setalle is burned out.  She is Martine, who was burned out about 20 years ago, not Corean Nedeal who died about 500 years ago.<br /><br />Remember Setalle testing with Joline did not work.  If she had even a touch of channeling ability, the bracelet would have worked.<br /><br />OTOH, Suane`s and Leane`s testing with Moghedien was in a way successful, in that they could sense Moggy`s feelings but could not control her in any way.<br /><br />There is definitely a difference between burnout and stilling!<br /><br />Tuon`s ability as Sul`dam:<br /><br />In WH, from Tuon`s POV, The Empress, may she live forever, chose not to acknowledge Tuon`s ability.  I believe in CoT was the first time Tuon was aware Sul`dams had the ability to learn to channel.<br /><br />This is a very good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 22:48:05
subject: <b>One of them yes.</b>
body:
I think that you're probably right. I also think that another reason for Anan, is she's to become that person who is supposed to tell Tuon the hard truth(can't remeber name off the top of my head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 10:46:48
subject: <b>setale the teacher</b>
body:
i think setalle is a burned out aes sedai and i think her purpose is to teach tuon to channel. although she can no-longer actively channel, imagine how easy it would be for her to say: 'imagine you are a rosebud opening up to the sun' or 'the bank guides and controls the river, not by forcing it but by surrendering to it'. tuon does these things and bada-bing-bada-boom she embraces saidar!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-16 07:46:20
subject: <b>Angreal discoveries</b>
body:
Maybe she was burned out due to studying angreal. There was an Aes Sedai mentioned earlier in the series - can't think of the name now. Anyway, maybe it's her &amp; she'll dicover something


created: 2003-01-11 19:36:10
subject: <b>I thought Graendal had taken her pets and joined forces with</b>
body:
Van Luca. She is now masquarading as his wife using inverted weaves. Luca can't understand why his sex life has gotten so much better.<br />NaCl(I've DEFINITELY been here too long)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 19:56:17
subject: <b>Mog?</b>
body:
When I first looked at word Mog, the first thing that came to mind was the cute little Moogle from FF3.


created: 2003-01-11 19:56:23
subject: <b>Mog?</b>
body:
When I first looked at word Mog, the first thing that came to mind was the cute little Moogle from FF3. lol<br />


created: 2003-01-11 23:51:21
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
I agree with you for the most part. Except about Lanfear. She has gone into production of Girl Scout cookies (source of the True Power...see my theory, Asmodean's addiction, and why he was taken) She plans to &quot;kindly&quot; offer up the Girl Scout Cookies to Rand and every other major good character, they will all be converted and become addicted to the Girl Scout Cookies's sweet goodness. Moiraine will escape and yell at them, and they will laugh at her, because she's short. <br />Other than that, I loved it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-12 07:24:21
subject: <b>*LoL*</b>
body:
Nice Theory<br /><br />Funny stuff...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> DaNi3| <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> RuLeR oF tHe FrEe AnD uNfReE WoR|d <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> ...the REAL dragon reborn... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Trying is the first step to failing&quot;<br />~ Homer Simpson <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> eVi| <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 02:30:40
subject: <b>Humerous theories suck.</b>
body:
Except for this one; it was actually pretty funny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 11:58:28
subject: <b>oh dear..</b>
body:
You missed out on where poor Rhavin is, from what I understand he's stuck in the dreamworld chanting.<br />I am not balefired..<br />I am not balefired..<br />I am not balefired..<br />...


created: 2003-01-14 01:05:21
subject: <b>Oooops, I did forget Rahvin</b>
body:
Man, I even double checked to make sure I got them all.  Well, Rahvin was balefired so his soul was also recycled back into the mass of souls.  He was combined with the dregs of another soul and was reborn in a Trolloc body, he is now the amalgamation of himself and you guessed it, Narg.  He is now a saidin-wielding Trolloc trying to build up the Way of the Coconut (see great humor theory).  I apologize for my incompleteness


created: 2003-01-30 19:17:57
subject: <b>Squee!</b>
body:
Haha! That's great... And I agree about the Girl Scout cookie thing. I think she's putting tabac in them... I always thought that A'ran was Asmo... Oh, well. It all does make sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lady Amalthea Pendragon<br /><br />&quot;Lan is Shrek! Lan is Shrek! Look! Rand describes him as an onion! He's Shrek!&quot; ... wtf, mate...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 00:09:03
subject: <b>Very amusing</b>
body:
Great work tracking down the bad guys and giving us the inside scoop on what they're doing. Now if only we knew what Narg was up to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 16:19:38
subject: <b>poor bela...</b>
body:
now, what did bela ever do to any of you? everybody is supposed to love and favor bela, but here you are, making fun of her.<br />nice theory, anyways...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 02:38:17
subject: <b>piffle</b>
body:
I hate you with the power of a thousand firey passionate things. Not fireflys. Bitchcakes. Thank you.<br /><br />P.S. Demandred is the great rubber chicken? i dont know which version of the Boks your reading but it isint the right one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 02:42:36
subject: <b>er</b>
body:
the shadow went into my hat. thats all.  end of story. pedestrians will win the war. bitchcakes out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 13:09:30
subject: <b>I like it!!!</b>
body:
Well researched, thought provoking. I like it.<br />I agree with most of it too. Need to dwell on it a little more and reread some passages.<br />On the whole a very good job!!!<br />We have well written theory after a long time.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 14:49:47
subject: <b>Here's another thing to add</b>
body:
Vandene blabs the bit about who it must be a little fast to Elayne and Nynaeve, especially when they could be considered the best candidates among the sisters from the POV of Vandene the Good Guy.  After all, their rise to Aes Sedai has been meteoric, they have demonstrated knowledge and developed new weaves lost or unknown since the Age of Legends, Nynaeve has the most herblore among the Ebou Dar party, and neither does things according to the traditional Aes Sedai ways.  Maybe they are sponsored by the Black Ajah, and receiving hints from the Forsaken. Why would Vandene accept Nynaeve and Elayne as innocent with no real proof. From a Black Ajah standpoint they are the most dangerous members of the Ebou Dar embassy as they are plainly willing to toss Aes Sedai traditions out the window to get the job done.  Vandene had witnessed Elayne's willingness to torture Ispan against Tower Law, and Nynaeve had spoken earlier about not caring about strength as a qualification to be Aes Sedai.  Vandene likely took Elayne and Nynaeve into her confidence to throw them off the scent, as she probably feared discovery by them more than any other Sister, who don't even really seem to believe in the Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 15:27:18
subject: <b>False Dragons not Channelers</b>
body:
When Vandene makes that comment about &quot;two in five years&quot; she was talking about False Dragons, but overall I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-15 16:48:01
subject: <b>Vandene</b>
body:
I agree.  It was Vandene, but until your post, I was of the             opinion that it was Aadelas who was Black, and Vandene killed her, and is looking for a third BA who was mentioned by Ispan during the questioning.  This theory is very well thought out and gives me food for thought.<br />question, though?  why is Vandene stromping through the Caemlyn Palace looking so hard for the Black Ajah?  It seems that her attitude is &quot;looking-for-Justice-which-will-prevale&quot;  it seems that this attitide is more than just a facade.


created: 2003-01-15 17:06:51
subject: <b>I wish...</b>
body:
this actually was a complete case against Vandene. There's some good new information here and more points to add to old stuff, but there are things missing.<br /><br />Some day I might take the time to collect all the evidence for and against Vandene and the other four suspects from theories like this (it's the first time I've seen Taim so that'll be included!), though I'll wait for more CoT points to be made by sharp individuals.


created: 2003-01-15 18:17:22
subject: <b>Just a couple of points</b>
body:
Not particularly in support or opposition, but here they are:<br />1) I don't think it's reasonable to assume, as close as they were, that either Adeleas or Vandene were BA; they either were both BA or not.<br />2)Therefore, if Vandene killed Adeleas, then both were both BA. So if it can be proved that Adeleas wasn't BA, then Vandene didn't kill her.<br /><br />Personally, i think she did it, though i haven't really sat down to think on it to much. This theory was well put together, and i plan to keep my eyes open for evidence on this mystery. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 18:33:29
subject: <b>Perhaps...</b>
body:
But I've often wondered if Vandene was a BA hunter, and she found out that Adeleas was Black, and plotting with Ispan. She didn't want to, but she knew she had to kill her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 19:00:14
subject: <b>I still don't think it was Vandene.</b>
body:
<br />Firstly, this is a great theory. Well thought-out and researched. <br /><br />However, I still don't think it was her. I thought that the Dragkar attempting to kill Moraine when she was with Vandene and Adeleas was a big clue to pointing the finger at Vandene, but this can still be explained by the fact that Liandrin (who is black ajah) went chasing after her from the tower. <br /><br />The biggest thing that puts me off it being Vandene is the below remark she makes (which you quoted) when they are in the tent after discovering the deaths. &quot;Adeleas would never have accepted anything to drink from someone she didn't know, not out here with Ispan. Those two facts name her killer, in a way. A Darkfriend, and one of our party. One of us.&quot; TPoD, Crimsonthorn, HB, p.546 &amp; 547. Why would she say this? This comment narrows down the capable suspects to her and a few others. Why would she cast suspicion on herself if she actually did it?<br />


created: 2003-01-15 19:42:39
subject: <b>another reason for male channelers numbers..</b>
body:
Ok Thom's Nephew *his last blood relative i think* was a male Channeler that was gentled ..From Moiraine by the red ajah without the Tower having a Trial before the Sitters.<br /><br />Now if i remember right it's in tower law that to gentle a Male Channeler he needs to be judged guilty by the Sitters.<br />** reason why Logain and Taim were being taken to the tower before they were gentled**<br /><br />Now i doubt moiraiane was free of the three oaths so i don't she could lie in the letter to Thom and she doesn't say His nephew could hve been gentled without tower approvel but she said he WAS.<br /><br />So this is one case of the red ajah/other sisters gentling a man without the Towers judgement.. Now it stand to reason that if it happened once it could happen more then once now<br />Elaida as a red sister would have a reason to know about the 24 that were gentled. yet only 16 are on record .. <br /><br />now The Chronicles are only let know to The Ameryin ,keeper and the sitters if i remember right. so the theory that every gentling would be known to the world/sisters..<br /><br />just my thoughts on the subject


created: 2003-01-15 20:30:57
subject: <b>I'm convinced</b>
body:
Well done. That was a very good compilation of evidence against Vandene. I have always believed her innocent, mostly because I do not want to believe she could murder her own sister in cold blood after living with her, and presumably loving her, for 250+ years. Even for a Black Ajah member that must be an extremely difficult thing to do. All the evidence I've previously seen has been purely circumstantial. In this theory it's all circumstantial, too, there is no clearly smoking gun - but the sheer volume of evidence you've presented has convinced me of Vandene's guilt.<br /><br />-Toivo


created: 2003-01-15 21:44:28
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
maybe RJ wants us to believe Vandene is the killer...<br /><br />Counter Mage<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Defender Against the Dark Magics<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-16 07:54:49
subject: <b>lying</b>
body:
ok wolford if u ever r trying to lie to someone then for it to be more believable then u put urself at risk by naming urself along with the others. by doing this the people who r getting told then lie then believe it becoz who would think that the person would also name themselves along with all the other possible people?


created: 2003-01-16 12:29:27
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I have to admit, this is certainly a comprehensive study. It doesn't convince me Vandene is the killer, but I certainly think there might be more to their backstory than first meets the eye. That or RJ has just screwed up a bit over the course of the series <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />A couple of things however.<br /><br />1) Ipsan was the one that was tortured to death, which implies to me that she was the one they were after. You could argue that Vandene killed Ipsan in this manner to through the others off the idea that Adeleas was the real target, but this seems a little too far fetched, especially as they would naturally assume that Ipsan was the target.<br /><br />2)If Ipsan is the target then the killer was BA. If it's Vandene then Vandene is BA and her sister isn't (shown by the fact that she had to kill her). This seems unlikely. Why would a member of the BA, a notoriously power hungry group who have to try and achieve the aims of the shadow, hide herself away from the world and for seventy odd years live with someone who is close enough to her to possibly uncover her secret and in a position to do something about it if she did?<br /><br />3) In CoT there are further hints to suggest that either Merilille or Sareitha are BA<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 13:51:53
subject: <b>A few random comments</b>
body:
First, I would like to thank everyone for their comments to this theory. I would also like to add that although this theory wasn't posted until 1/15/03, it was written and submitted before CoT was released in the U.S., where I live. So, I had no idea if CoT would outright shoot this thing to pieces, in fact, I had pretty much given up hope it would even be posted.<br /><br /> I would like to address Burr's reply next. RJ certainly has made mistakes before, so that is as likely as any reason for the discrepancy. It is also possible that Vandene didn't have knowledge of all the male channelers that had been found over the past twenty years. The fact she knows so much of what is going on in the world, especially current events, I think it is more likely an RJ error.<br /><br /> To Fain Forever; the text clearly states she is talking about male channelers: &quot;When was the last time the Reds found two men channeling in less than a year? When did they last find one in five years?&quot;<br /><br /> To Three in a Boat; nothing is conclusive so far. It just seems that we have a lot more contact with Vandene than the rest of the Aes Sedai from Ebou Dar. When I reread the part about Vandene and Adeleas curing the locals of Tifan's Well, it made me suspicious enough to look for more. Other than Nynaeve, those two sisters are the only ones that have been shown to have a possible connection to herblore. <br /> I think even you would have to doubt Liandrin's ability to track Lan and Moiraine. Liandrin is only about 27 years old, raised in a city, then spent around ten years or so in the White Tower. I felt Moiraine's comment about &quot;no danger of pursuit here&quot;, eliminated Liandrin for the dragkar, or at least made her highly doubtful.<br /><br /> To Rabid Monkey; the tea was meant for Adeleas, it was not being delivered to Ispan. She was a prisoner. That is not to say Adeleas was the primary target. However, the fact remains we did see her attempted murder earlier, so that is still a possibility. Both times, Vandene was not with her sister when you would expect her to be.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 14:47:49
subject: <b>to long to find killer</b>
body:
with all the facts you posted and the well over due process of finding the killer who else could it be.<br /><br />except who is the black sister that was traveling with nynaeve and company back to camelyn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 23:36:49
subject: <b>heres a random thought...</b>
body:
first off, i didnt read the entire theory, a little too long <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> so somebody may have already wrote this but how about: vandene used crimsonthorn root, cause she didnt want her sister to suffer (it kills pain).  she didnt want to kill adelas, but the forsaken or the BA ordered the execution and she had to obey.


created: 2003-01-17 12:20:30
subject: <b>Vandene repenting</b>
body:
Good thought Robert Jordan Fan - that thought occured to me this morning.  She REALLY loved her sister (and Dark Friends can love their family - remember the peddler in the waste and his sister Teadora?) and killing her was painful.  That could explain her terrible mood and wasting away that we see in Caemlyn.  She has come to realize that being BA was more than promises to her - she has to kill her sister - much more personal than the rest of the acts she has been asked to perform for the Dark Lord.  <br />Maybe - truly out there, I know, but maybe this will be a catalyst for her return to the Light?


created: 2003-01-17 13:31:09
subject: <b>If it is Vandene, then here is a possible chronology...</b>
body:
Vandene and Adeleas are questioning Ispan. Vandene faithfully reports to her BA superiors what Ispan is telling them. When she tells too much, her superior orders both of them killed, and Ispan horribly. The crimsonthorn root has the double effect of killing the pain as well as causing the paralysis. She quickly and painlessly kills her sister and then performs the required actions on Ispan.<br /><br />I have to admit that the fact that Vandene and Adeleas spent 70 years together working on their history makes it hard to believe that Adeleas didn't suspect anything, but the evidence that they were linked constantly but Vandene didn't know Adeleas was dead is pretty overwhelming.<br /><br />All in all, I like this theory.<br /><br />RAFO, the story of my life...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 13:45:53
subject: <b>Thank you...</b>
body:
Mountain At Dawn. I agree with you and Jordan Fan: Vandene did love her sister. And your point about that Darkfriend peddler in the waste is very relevent to this case; maybe even somewhat foreshadowing?<br /><br />To Random Monkey: You can't infer anything about Adeleas' loyalties from the evidence at the scene. Your comment that if Vandene killed Adeleas then V. is BA and A. is not does not follow from any of the assumptions presented. I do agree, however that it's not possible for one to be BA and the other not when they lived together as long as they have.<br /><br />I just had a thought. Is it necessary for the killer to be BA? We've seen a BA sister act on behalf of the light in her own way (Elza), isn't it reasonable to assume that given the right circumstances, and the right amount of, shall we say, dementia, a non-BA sister may act in a manner concistant with the BA? Maybe Merilille has her wits unseated enough for her to have committed the crime and not be BA. We already know that a sisters perception can allow her to sidestep the oaths.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 14:23:43
subject: <b>I'm totally confused</b>
body:
&quot;To Three in a Boat; nothing is conclusive so far. It just seems that we have a lot more contact with Vandene than the rest of the Aes Sedai from Ebou Dar. When I reread the part about Vandene and Adeleas curing the locals of Tifan's Well, it made me suspicious enough to look for more. Other than Nynaeve, those two sisters are the only ones that have been shown to have a possible connection to herblore. <br />I think even you would have to doubt Liandrin's ability to track Lan and Moiraine. Liandrin is only about 27 years old, raised in a city, then spent around ten years or so in the White Tower. I felt Moiraine's comment about &quot;no danger of pursuit here&quot;, eliminated Liandrin for the dragkar, or at least made her highly doubtful.&quot;<br /><br />You addressed me, but you seem to be trying to convince me of things I never doubted.<br /><br />All I was commenting on is that your title is &quot;The Complete Case Against Vandene&quot;, so I expected a big collection of all the points people have made, but it was mostly just new stuff. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not what I expected from the title!


created: 2003-01-17 15:37:30
subject: <b>points to consider</b>
body:
The main refuttal of this seems to be that V &amp; A spent 70-odd years together in the back end of beyond writing their history, and how could V be BA and A not know it?<br />Well, what was happening more than 80 years ago? V &amp; A live their separate lives in the White Tower and do their Ajah things. V is recruited at this time to be BA. The darkfriends were relatively quiet (other than Ishmael was insanely ordering DFs around occasionally). About 70-odd years ago, V &amp; A decide that they are getting old, even for Aes Sedai, so they decide to retire and write a history of the world. V never thought that the dragon reborn would be born in her lifetime.<br />So, when they retire 70+ years ago, what was happening? little that would distinguish this century from the proceeding 10 or so. Rand's GRANDMOTHER, Modrellein, was a very young child, if she was born at all! So, 70 years living is close, intimate proximity would be easy for V to hide her true Ajah from her sister, since nothing was happening. Granted, the last 20 would be a little more active for the black, but V is retired from the tower... what current BA head is going to think seriously about giving her an assignment when there are so many still in the tower? Moiraine mentions that she doubted many AS even remembered these sisters.<br />Then, about 3 years ago (how many has it been anyway, since Rand &amp; co left the Two Rivers?), V &amp; A decide that events are happening in the world - or a Forsaken or Galina remember V and ask her to come out of retirement (needing the help of all the BA they can lay their hands on) and she convinces her sister to go.<br />Now V actively has to commit horrific acts as a Darkfriend, and her sister finally finds out about it.<br /><br />Anyone know how long Galina has been head of the BA?<br /><br />Anyone have dates on Tigraine's life, and that of her mother?<br />


created: 2003-01-17 17:11:20
subject: <b>ahem</b>
body:
Regarding the last comment: ALVIARIN is head of the Black Ajah, not Galina. Galina is a member of the Council of Thirteen, high-ranking but not highest in authority.<br /><br />Rob the Poser...your speculation has merit, except for one thing: is Vandene strong enough to drive a stake through someone's heart? Could an accomplice be involved?<br /><br />Light in the Night...wow...your theory rocks. I was alternating between Sareitha (went to the city DIRECTLY after Marillin Gemalphin mentioned there's a Black sister in the palace--although MG did say it may take some time to establish contact), Merillile (nabbed a Sea Folk apprentice and hightailed it outta there), and Careane (simply because she wasn't mentioned shooting dark glares at Ispan in PoD). But your theory is a convincing argument on Vandene's guilt.<br /><br />Now if anyone has theories on who killed Anaiya and Kairen...AND WHO BETRAYED EGWENE????<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 17:58:52
subject: <b>My apologies</b>
body:
to Three In A Boat. The title was definitely misleading. I actually started to list everything and realized how long-winded it was turning out to be. So, I trimmed it down to the things I had not seen mentioned before, and to give backing to some that had. I simply failed to change the title after my editting. Anything I left out can probably be found in the FAQ section. <br /> <br /> In the future, I will try to be more accurate in my theory titles. <br /><br /> Light in the Night<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 12:22:06
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
Mountain. I never thought of it that way. It seems that forcing logical statements onto these cases is harder than i thought. Kinda gives you a new respect for the White Ajah, no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 14:08:17
subject: <b>Yes, good points...</b>
body:
My personal opinion, which I will put in theory form when I have time, is that Adeleas is alive.  I believe that somehow she has convinced everyone that she is Vandene. There are problems with this (why would she do that?), but it is my current opinion, I still need to do more research...<br />Either way your theory works, whoever is dead, her sister killed her.  In fact, it lends credence to your theory if I am right...<br /><br />nmaria27: She can channel, of course she can drive a stake through Ispan's heart...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 16:54:34
subject: <b>Interesting idea Shadar Aman</b>
body:
It has been mentioned before as a possibility. In TGH, Vandene says that Adeleas said she should have been a Brown. In the same chapter, she tells Moiraine she is becoming more of a Brown. At the hut, she analyzes the murder scene as a Brown might. And now, in CoT, we see her wearing her Brown sisters clothing. <br /><br /> I can't remember any more references off the top of my head, but there might be. Mat certainly could never tell them apart.<br /><br /> Perhaps the twins(?) pulled a switch?<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 19:33:09
subject: <b>Or...Adeleas?</b>
body:
I like your theory, but a couple of things have struck me.  After Adeleas' death Vandene took her new tacky saddle, and in CoT there is mention of her wearing Adeleas' clothes more than her own.  Perhaps since they look identical, Vandene is dead, killed by Adeleas, and Adeleas is covering her tracks by pretending to be Vandene in case it is ever discovered that Adeleas was BA.  Just a thought.


created: 2003-01-20 05:55:31
subject: <b>Not convincing</b>
body:
I still don't believe Vandene is BA, because she couldn't possibly have hidden it from her sister, they were always very close, not just since they retired. Secondly, Liandrin could have followed them whatever Moiraine thinks (when are main characters ever right about such things?) and I personally cannot discount Slayer completely; with his Isam face he looks enough like Lan to get Nynaeve confused, so it is rather likely he could have fooled Adeleas long enough to drug her. The whole murder has the sort of bloody signature you would expect from Slayer


created: 2003-01-20 11:10:04
subject: <b>A couple of points</b>
body:
Though Liandrin was a city girl she could still have tracked Moraine and Lan using the power - this was something that occurs in both EotW and tGH, the coins that Rand etc carry and Morraine has their clothes burnt to stop the Shadow tracking them, why couldn't Liandrin have used this method?<br /><br />Ont the point about the sisters getting news about Taim etc early as one of them is BA, why would this be the case as they are at that point seemingly of little or no use where they are. Also as they are a Brown sister and a nearly Brown sister, and therefore knowledge addicted, as well as writing a history then they may well have had eyes and ears in assorted cities sending them information about the world as well as spotting rare old books for them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 11:37:07
subject: <b>To smallcatharine</b>
body:
The main reason I find with blaming Slayer for this murder is his ability to find them. He was directed to the Stone to kill the two Aes Sedai being held prisoner. The same in Far Madding; Rand had left clues to be followed there. The group with Elayne and Nynaeve, on the other hand, take a rather circuitous rout to Caemylin; no one knew exactly where they were.<br /><br /> On top of that, in WH, we get a POV from Slayer gloating about killing the AS in the Stone, and he mentions how rare it is that he gets to kill AS. He does not mention anything about killing Adeleas and Ispan, two more Aes Sedai.<br /><br /> I my opinion, these reasons make him an unlikely suspect, and point toward someone within the group travelling together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 12:13:55
subject: <b>A couple of points to snoopster</b>
body:
If you will remember, Moiraine had her room warded in Fal Dara, making it unlikely Liandrin could have gotten to her things to plant something. Liandrin herself is the one that tells us this. You are also assuming that Liandrin even knew about the trick in the first place. Aes Sedai are rather notorious for not sharing knowledge. And Moiraine's statement about no danger of pursuit implies she took precautions against being followed.<br /><br /> If Vandene had eyes and ears in so many places to learn about Taim, as well as look for old books and knowledge of the world for their history, it makes it that much more likely that she would have also known about how many male channelers had been found in the last twenty years, therefore making her a liar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 15:05:18
subject: <b>The Switch</b>
body:
I also thought of the idea that Adeleas may have pulled the old switcheroo and murdered her sister (an idea I really, really like), but after looking around for a bit, I finaly found it--Jaem, though he's pretty much community property by the time we meet him, is actually bonded to Vandene.  If Vandene is the one that's dead, then not only is Jaem a Darkfriend, he should definitely be showing signs of losing his AS.  I don't remember clearly thinking that he was any more out of sorts than he should be, but it's possible I missed something.  Anybody else catch anything like that?


created: 2003-01-21 00:32:46
subject: <b>One thing to ponder...</b>
body:
Great stuff! Just one little thing I thought about that sort of nagged at me.I wouldn't immediately dismiss Jaem as a suspect or an accomplice. Jus tbecause he helped Lan kill the drakhar doesn't prove he's not a darkfriend. Seems to me a similar scenario was used to get a certain fella promoted to the position of Captain of Elayne's personal bodygaurd. He had to kill three men who were supposed to kill Elayne after she drank the drugged tea, remember. And the fact that he hasn't shown the typical distress of a warder who has just lost his AS, as someone else pointed out, is rather...unusual if not totally suspicious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mara Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Servant of all, slave to none<br />Peaceful warrior, ignorant scholar<br />Hopelessly hopeful, patiently persistant<br />One of many, yet one of a kind.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 06:09:12
subject: <b>Light in The Night</b>
body:
Though Moiraine had her room warded she would most likely have left her tack in the stables where Liandrin could have got at it, as for her knowing the trick being an assumption - well it is but then so is assuming she doesn't, there is no evidence either way but is a possible flaw in the theory to discount this<br /><br />As for the eyes and ears suggestion, well it is possible that they only contacted the sisters when they had something of importance for the history that they were writing sand would mention odd events that they knew about at the time just in passing. In addition if their eyes and ears are non AS, as is pretty certain, then they may well not know about every instance that occurs - I would think the Tower didn't give great publicity to every <br />Gentling they carried out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 02:14:57
subject: <b>Great Theory, but gut says no.</b>
body:
It is just a gut reaction, but I can't shake it.  First the tea.  2 cups always bothered me, because they probably aren't bringing the second for Ispan.  The second could have been intended for Vandene, however, as much as brought by her.  I'm not sure the sweetness of the tea and any knowledge or lack thereof about Ade's tastes is a clue.  The crimsonthorn worked very quickly on Nynaeve and Elayne in Amadicia, so Ade would have only needed a sip, or two to feel it's effects.  Why does Liandrin need to track Moiraine and Lan?  What if the Draghkar tracks them, after Liandrin wards him, and points him in the right direction?  Moiraine definitely said &quot;few sisters&quot; remember they went into voluntary retreat to work on their history.  This implies that some do, and why not Siuan Sanche herself?  Why is Vandene SO distraught if she did it?  Certainly Kadere, the DF peddler from the Waste, was remorseful that he killed his sister, but not wearing her clothes around. I may have more after I finish my re-read.<br /><br />Now that I've written this, I have to admit I'm waffling.  I'm still not totally buying Vandene, but the Taim remark does bother me, if only because Moiraine has that line about an answer she wasn't looking for.  And what if Vandene only meant to give Ade enough crimsonthorn to incapacitate her, but killed her accidently -- that would explain why she is so upset.  Like I said, my gut is still leaning against this one, though. Or maybe I just need a cookie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 03:24:14
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
You are getting the herbs mixed up. Elayne and Nynaeve were given forkroot in Amadicia. It makes you groggy and unable to channel.<br /><br /> Crimsonthorn root on the other hand is a pain-killer in small amounts, in larger doses, it appears to paralyze.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 11:15:17
subject: <b>vandene is tryin to misslead</b>
body:
yeah, she is tryin to mislead elayne and her crew any way that she can, she is a darkfriend and when they arent killing they are disrupting anything they can (like info).  simple as that.  oh yeah, the dude who commented on this originally said that either vandene or RJ made a mistake, thats not possible.  RJ put that there for a reason like the author of this theory said.  plus RJ's punk-arse better not make any mistakes in these books, things are like $20 a piece!  great theory, i thought that vandene killed her sis when i got into crossroads of twilight, and you have just made me 110% sure about that, thanks!


created: 2003-01-22 13:37:53
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
If she lied about something....wouldnt that point to her being freed of the three oaths and hence a DF.. and if so then, is it not plausible that she did kill her.


created: 2003-01-22 14:57:19
subject: <b>Eureka!</b>
body:
That thought from Moiraine in Tifan's Wells: &quot;An answer, or a hint to an answer, for a question she had not asked...&quot;  This has always bothered me, but I've always let it slide as I was reading, thinking I would come back to it at some point.  My first thoughts were that it must refer to Taim, as well, but why would she be curious about that when Siuan had already told her Taim's name in Fal Dara?  I finally went back and was looking through the whole chapter, when I finally got the clue I needed: the chapter icon is the SL dagger.  <br /><br />&quot;'Shadar Logoth!'  Vandene snorted.  'In brief, the city was destroyed by its own hate, every living thing except Mordeth, the coucilor who began it all, using the tactics of the Darkfriends against the Darkfriends, and he now lies trapped there waiting for a soul a steal.'&quot;<br /><br />Moiraine never asks about Fain, or even thinks about him.  Later on she is quite sure that Mordeth took over Fain's body, but she never gained that information while she was questioning him in Fal Dara.  That's the answer that she received that she wasn't looking for.<br /><br />Also, there is an exchange between Mo and Van where Van asks if the Dragon has been reborn, and Mo's evasive answer is wouldn't you and Adeleas be summoned by the Amyrlin if he had been reborn?  Van replies, &quot;No, and I suppose we would.&quot;  This implies that Siuan does know about Van and Ade in Arafel.  I think it's reasonable to assume that they would have some info about Taim from Siuan, or another sister, given how close Arafel is Saldaea.<br /><br />I have a couple more points I want to mention, so please bear with me.  At the beginning of Watchers Mo thinks &quot;No one would expect her to come (to Tifan's Well).&quot;  This makes me think that neither Van nor Ade would be expecting Mo, either.  Now, through all of EotW and the first half of tGH we several examples where Shadowspawn and Darkfriends ignore everyone but the three boys.  Now, I'm not saying that there weren't orders out there to kill Mo, but why would Van receive them, especially when nobody would expect Mo to be at Tifan's Well?  Is it reasonable to assume that she communicated with her Dark superiors, then met and warded the Draghkar, avoiding Lan, Mo, Ade and Jaem, during the limited period of time that Mo was there?<br /><br />I did want to make some points about Slayer's POV from WH.  There is more evidence there that it could have been him who killed Ade then I think most people credit, but this post is too long already.  I think it deserves its own theory thread, anyway.  And thanks for clarifying my herbal faux pas, Light in the Night.  I always get those confused. Are there any more references to crimsonthorn in the books?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 17:54:58
subject: <b>Alviarin has been BA Head for 15 years.</b>
body:
What about the two very strong 'novices' (Zarya and Kirstian) that came to Vandene with their suspicions in WH? Vandene is far too weak to tackle either of them with the Power, but she might have been able to 'rid' herself from them instead of telling Nynaeve about them.<br /><br />I always thought that RJ was doing the old good twin/bad twin or twin killed by mistake stunt, but could never figure out which. I still think that more work needs to be done on this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 00:56:39
subject: <b>Re: Eureka!</b>
body:
Moiraine already knew about Mordeth. In tEotW, Shadow's Waiting, HB p.245, Mo says: &quot;Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules... or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again.&quot; <br /> Vandene didn't tell her anything she didn't already know about Mordeth or Shadar Logoth. However, maybe she finally put two and two together. OTOH, as sharp as Moiraine is always made out to be, she would have to be pretty slow at addition to arrive at this answer now, with the information she already had.<br /><br /> As to the dragkar, I intentionally made it a minor point. It has always bothered me because we never see anyone but the Forsaken commanding Shadowspawn. The only exception I can think of is Luc/Isam in the Two Rivers in TSR. I myself would rather suspect Lanfear, who is the jealous type when it comes to LTT.<br /><br /> On Slayer being the murderer, refer to my above post.<br /><br /> To linda sedai; Vandene telling Nynaeve about the two ex-kin's conclusions, seems like a good way for her to confirm suspicion on the other Aes Sedai, while diverting it away from herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 05:16:05
subject: <b>Rebuttal</b>
body:
You're right, Moiraine definitely did know that Mordeth would try take the first available soul that was unfortunate enough to wander into Shadar Logoth.  Knowing that, she SHOULD have been able to deduce what had happened to Fain, but the text clearly indicates that she didn't until after Tifan's Wells.<br /><br />&quot;'It was evil against evil in the ruins of Shadar Logoth,' Moiraine continued, 'foul fighting vile.  When Fain spoke of it, his teeth chattered and he whimpered.  Many Trollocs were slain, consumed by Mashadar and other things, including the Trolloc that held Fain's leash.  He fled the city as if it were the Pit of Doom, at Shayol Ghul.'&quot; (EotW, ch47,p716)<br /><br />&quot;'So the Darkfriend is gone, too,' (Ingtar) growled.'Well, it's the least of what has happened this night.'  'The least even here,' Moiraine said sharply.&quot; (TGH, ch 6, p96)<br /><br />&quot;(Moiraine said,) 'Then we must find the dagger, Sister.  Agelmar is sending men to hunt those who took the Horn, and slew his oathmen, the same who took the dagger.  If one is found, the other will be'...(Siuan) rubbed her eyes tiredly.  'I think we must find this Padan Fain, too.  Why is this Darkfriend important enough for them to risk what they did to rescue him...If Lurks think he is that important...then so must we.'  'He must be found,' Moiraine agreed, hoping that none of the urgency she felt showed, 'but it is unlikely he will be found with the Horn.&quot; (TGH, ch7, p103-04)<br /><br />Moiraine said, &quot;Padan Fain was the Dark One's creature to the depths of his soul, but I believe that in Shadar Logoth he fell afoul of Mordeth, who was as vile in fighting the Shadow as ever the Shadow itself was.  Mordeth tried to consume Fain's soul, to have a human body again, but found a soul that had been touched directly by the Dark One, and what resulted....What resulted was neither Padan Fain, nor Mordeth, but something far more evil, a blend of the two.  Fain - let us call him that - is more dangerous than you can believe.  You might not have survived such a meeting, and if you had, you might have been worse than turned to the Shadow.&quot; (TGH, ch49, p675)<br /><br />*Note: All page references are paperback.<br /><br />If you look at all of these together, I think that it's obvious that Moiraine had totally missed the connection between Fain and Shadar Logoth while she was in Fal Dara.  She didn't even think that Fain was with the dagger!  Given the last quote, if she had done the math before Tifan's Wells, I think she would have skipped seeing Vandene and Adeleas to go chasing off after Rand and company.<br /><br />Anyway, this seems a digression from the original thread, but my point is that the scene at Tifan's Wells does not stand up as evidence of Vandene being Black Ajah.  It does not entirely exonerate her, either, but she does appear to be helping Moiraine out as much as she can.<br /><br />After skimming through the theory again, I want to make a couple more points. First, having a good network of eyes and ears, and White Tower contacts, isn't proof of Black Ajah. Rumors of a false Dragon in Saldaea are first heard by Moiraine in Baerlon.  There is a lot of time and physical distance between Moiraine in Baerlon and Moiraine in Arafel.  Second, Vandene and Adeleas are very evasive in their runaways comment to Elayne.  I think it's entirely possible that they are not searching for runaways from the White Tower, per se.  Third, the thing about Adeleas using crimsonthorn for aches and pains is pure speculation.  Fourth, the tea tray is also missing, and there is no reference to the second tea cup having any tea in it.  Finally, keep your eyes on the Theory board.  I just submitted one, and would really like to see your comments on it, Light in the Night.  Hopefully it makes it up here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 08:19:54
subject: <b>Re: Rebuttal</b>
body:
It's too bad Moiraine didn't spend more time interrogating Fain when she had the chance. She originally said she felt he had kept some things back from her. Probably his encounter with Mordeth. When Egwene takes Rand down to hide in the dungeon, Fain says, &quot;Mordeth knows&quot;, or something along those lines. She probably would have made the connection then.<br /><br /> When our group arrives in Baerlon, the gatekeeper mentions some trouble in Saldaea, nothing about a false Dragon, a man channeling, or the name Mazrim Taim. <br /><br /> My whole point of Vandene having contact with the Tower was to show that she would have known the number of male channelers that had been captured over the last twenty years. Her knowledge of events in the Tower since retiring is damning. If she lied, she is BA.<br /><br /> The fact that the two sisters were curing the ills of the villagers of Tifan's Well is surely an indication of the use of herbs since none of the people know they are Aes Sedai. This is the main reason the Windfinders are not suspects, and gives us reason to look very hard at Vandene. We do not know that any of the other AS in their group knows any herblore.<br /><br /> The fact that the tray is missing doesn't really mean anything. The honey pot still should have been there to sweeten individual cups. It also was not clear whether the other cup was used or not. It is possible that Ispan did not drink any tea. In fact, since she is described as her eyes bulging and her lips drawn back in a rictus of bare teeth, it is likely she didn't, since the poison is supposed to paralyze. If this is the case, then she would have to have been shielded and held with the Power while the stake was driven into her chest. In that case, Slayer didn't do it.<br /><br /> As to Adeleas's sudden taste for sweet tea, I find that curious enough to comment on. It has been my experience that younger people like sweet things and as you grow older, you tend to use less sugar. In TFoH, the two sisters that grill Nynaeve about Rand, make this same observation and one of them even says that young women like lots of honey in their tea, and give her a cup so sweet she can't drink it. Interesting that Jordan then has someone very old developing a taste for sweet tea late in her life. My conjecture that Adeleas was using crimsonthorn for pain, was not therefore, baseless.<br /><br /> &quot;Adeleas blinked and pulled herself back to the topic. &quot;The Kin help runaways. They always have two or three women in Tar Valon keeping watch. For one thing, they approach almost every woman put out, in a very circumspect way, and for another, they manage to find every runaway, whether Novice or Accepted. At least none has made it off the island without their help since the Trolloc Wars.&quot;<br /> <br /> No. They were not looking for runaways. Period.<br /><br /> I also found it more than a little suspicious that these two inseparable sisters are conveniently separated both times Adeleas is attacked.<br /><br /> I look forward to seeing your theory, and will be happy to comment on it. Blackboard discussions are usually more enlightening than the MB.<br /><br /> Good luck!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 01:28:52
subject: <b>Martine Janata</b>
body:
Under Miscellanous(sp?) Theories there is an excellent post about Setalle Anan being the &quot;One who is no longer&quot; and establishes some credible evidence showing that Anan may be Martine.  The fact that Adeleas and Vandene have detailed information about a woman who was burnt out 50 years after their retirement does two things. First, it supports the Setalle/Martine connection, and second, removes some of the mystery surronding the twins knowledge of her.  Sheriam was either a novice or Accepted at the time of Martine's burn-out and would have detailed knowledge of the event.  Sheriam is talking to the twins before they depart from Salidar and could have passed this information on to the twins.  This makes even more sense if they wanted to use Setalle as a contact with the Kin.  The Kin are more likely to know about the Bowl than anyone else in Ebou Dar.  This could also explain the runaway comment from Adeleas since Aes Sedai use the Kin to track and recapture runaways.<br /><br />I also found another instance in which the two twins are not together.  When Mat enters the Tarasin Palace to leave a message for Nynaeve and Elayne he is accosted by Teslyn and Joline.  Shortly after Adeleas, Merilille and Sareitha appear, but not Vandene.  Every scene in which we see one sister without the other reduces the uniqueness of Adeleas guarding Ispan by herself even with the danger of shielding a Black Ajah member.  Also, Elayne sees Adeleas taking Ispan to the hut by herself on the night of the murder, and doesn't comment on it being out of the ordinary.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 04:18:00
subject: <b>That's a pretty far stretch</b>
body:
Why oh why would Sheriam tell the twins about Martine Janata? As far as we know, she changed her name to Satelle Anan and started a new life for herself, leaving the Tower behind. She does not have regular contact with the Kin, as witnessed by her conversation with Reanne when she takes Nynaeve and Elayne to her. In fact, it is doubtful that anyone in the Tower knows who or where she is now. And there is absolutely no evidence that Vandene or Adeleas ever had any contact with Satelle Anan. <br /> On top of that, Vandene and Adeleas know practically nothing about the Kin: <br /> 1)They stated that the Kin took in wilders-they don't. <br /> 2)That none ever remained long, 5-10 years-Reanne was going to be 412 years old on her next birthday. If she was put out of the Tower as an Accepted and taken into the Kin at that time as would be expected from the description, she has been in the Kin for several hundred years.<br /> 3)They keep their numbers small-yeah, 1,783 names on the roll. Almost twice the number of Aes Sedai.<br /> 4)They show no evidence of knowing where the Knitting Circle meets.<br /> 5)They show no knowledge of the Kin's Farm.<br /> <br /> You are under the misconception that Satelle Anan was a go-between to help roundup runaways, or as some kind of liason to the Kin. That is not the case. She was very hesitant to take the girls to the Kin. In truth, Reanne was upset that she brought them. <br /><br /> As for Mat's encounter with all those AS minus Vandene; We all know that Ebou Dar was full of DFs looking for the cache of angreals. Perhaps she had other people to meet. <br /><br /> For Elayne's part; What did she have to be suspicious about at that time? Just because she saw them alone, doesn't mean it registered as anything important, or out of the ordinary. Vandene may have been using the privy for all she knew. Perhaps if she thought about it later, she might question why Adeleas was left alone with Ispan. If she thought a little more, maybe it would dawn on her that a DF is capable of killing a family member, and Vandene would be included on her list of suspects. Perhaps if she really thought a lot more, maybe she would ask or remember if they were still linked when her sister died.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 00:37:34
subject: <b>Not sure I believe</b>
body:
But it is a great theory.  Vandene is a great actor if she did kill her sister.  She has seemed distraught, and out for vengance since it happened.  On the other hand if they were both BA, that would explain why they were so hot to question Ispan to begin with... they could cover up any info that would negatively effect the BA.  If the Chosen or BA leadership required Vandene to kill her sister, then she would not have been able to refuese...bad things happen if you refuse the Chosen etc.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on. <br />-A thought by Susan Sto Helit<br />Hogfather<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-07 16:47:08
subject: <b>Something interesting</b>
body:
Something interesting that no one has mentioned that I know of, is a small tidbit found in PoD [pp. 88 hardcover]<br /><br />&quot;The flies seemed to avoid her [Adeleas] for some reason, though she wore a scent as strong as any of the flowers&quot;<br /><br />This is exactly the type of miniscule kind of clue that RJ gives us to try and figure out what happened.  Perhaps it is nothing, or perhaps it is the key to everything.  I won't reiterate everything said prior, but I will say that I think that this sentence was not written arbitrarily- it holds significance.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ghenjei of the Tower<br /><br />&quot;I'm all theory and no action&quot;<br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 00:18:16
subject: <b>No way!</b>
body:
Most of these points are just really picky, like a lack of honey and A. not likely to change her taste in tea! RJ has slipped up in other things, I think a honey pot falls in the category - too little to be buggered with.<br /><br />And as for V. lying about the number of channellers - I think the number of male channellers is not very well defined in RJ's head. Afterall, Cadsuane said she had captured more men than any 10 reds, lets assume that the very best reds have captured 2-3 men (afterall, it is their sole purpose in life), then Cadsuane has captured 20-30 men. Even if reds capture one man then retire, she has still single-handly captured 10.<br /><br />V. getting information out in whoop-whoop - eyes and ears. Afterall, even if she was Black, she would need eyes and ears - they don't mystically get knowledge.<br /><br />And evidence against V. Easy - why would a Black sister retire for seventy years and write obscure papers? Sounds like someone with no ambition, which does not sound Black. And why would V. kill her own sister? She loves her sister (othewise why live together as pillowfriends for seventy years?), and even though Blacks have been known to kill those they love under orders, V. could have waited until someone else was guarding I.


created: 2003-02-09 00:27:02
subject: <b>And...</b>
body:
... I nearly forget - the healing the sisters did, it didn't have to be herbs. Maybe it was all placebo lolly water while she did the hand-waving. Or maybe they covered up the one power with the pretense of using crystals to heal. Afterall if people nowdays are stupid enough to believe, why wouldn't they?


created: 2003-02-10 04:53:46
subject: <b>Re: Adrian</b>
body:
Nit-picky stuff is what you have to look at. These are the kind of things you must take into account in a murder investigation. Looking at what was in the room, as well as what should have been, but wasn't. The major part of the whole thing was the crimsonthorn root's sweet taste. Whoever used it had to know this. In fact, they also needed to know that Adeleas liked sweet tea, otherwise, one touch to her lips with the poisoned tea, and she wouldn't have drank enough to do anything. <br /><br /> As to Cadsuane, these were simply musings to herself, that she probably had caught more male channelers than any ten Reds. OTOH, she is the oldest living AS, about 300 years old, and seems to have a penchant for finding these men. In fact, she knows about the voices they hear, so it is evidence that she has had considerable experience in this area. Considering that we have heard that sisters die in trying to capture some of these male channelers, it is entirely possible that she has done exactly what she thought.<br /><br /> I suppose that most sisters have eyes and ears working for them. However, from what we have seen, these contacts are usually shop keepers or the like in some town, not people that are out wandering around the world. They come by their info from traveling merchants, etc. OTOH, we also know that the WT has one of the biggest libraries around. Having a contact there would be invaluable for references. Besides, the fact Vandene knew everything about Martine Janata, shows this is likely the case.<br /><br /> Where did you come up with Vandene and Adeleas being pillowfriends? They were true sisters, and RJ has shied away from incest. As to her killing her sister even though she loved her, well, if you would sell your soul to the Devil, you would do anything. Or face death yourself. <br /><br /> A placebo? Are you kidding? And the people keep coming back for more? Maybe a traveling salesman could sell an elixir and move on before the people caught on, but these two live there. On top of that, Moiraine said they were curing their ills, not Healing them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 01:04:38
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
We know Vandene and Adeleas have better than average eyes and ears, even if Vandene is black, she still needs to reply on spies.<br /><br />I was just bollucksing about V and A being pillowfriends, but my point is that while a Darkfriend would kill anyone if they had to, even one they love, V did not have to kill A to kill T, she could just have waited until someone else was on guard, and killed someone she didn't care about.<br /><br />And Vandene as a black would be expected to show more ambition than retiring for 70 odd years.<br /><br />With the placebo, I meant wave the crystals over them, or give them some mint tea, then do real healing on them. Sort of like Wisdoms do when they heal with the One Power. If they are going to heal with the One Power, they don't need to know anything about herbs other than 'this one tastes gross and will hide the healing shiver'.


created: 2003-02-11 05:02:01
subject: <b>Re: But</b>
body:
Yes, I agree most AS rely on spies for info. Where the spies are, determines what kind of info they receive. Think about the fact that the WT split was not widely known. They certainly didn't want it to be known there was a rift, not to those outside the Tower. But somehow Vandene and Adeleas find out and go to Salidar, not the WT.<br /><br /> When the two retired, the world was not on the brink of TG. Is it not possible that they retired to not draw attention to themselves? Sticking around after you are expected to retire could be construed as suspicious. It is also possible, if you look at some of the passages by Adeleas, that she might have been losing some of her faculties. Several times she starts to talk about a subject and starts to wander, and Vandene prompts her back on track. This was the reason I said she might have been using crimsonthorn root as a pain medication, it was not foundless. Perhaps she had a brain tumor or the like, something that Healing couldn't fix. It would explain her change in taste for tea.  <br /> Besides, even in retirement, you can keep your eyes and ears open and still be called into service if needed. Why did they come out of retirement? Why not just live out their final years in peace where they were?<br /><br /> If you will remember, Vandene and Adeleas had taken charge of the prisoner. No one else. They were supposedly the most qualified to do the questioning. Nobody else is seen guarding Ispan after they take her.<br /><br /> Even Wisdoms use herbs that really work. Most aches and pains can be cured with medication, with no need for Healing. I used the POV quote from Moiraine specifically because it said &quot;cured their ills&quot;, not Healed. That is a BIG difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 16:58:01
subject: <b>It's getting more extravagent</b>
body:
Aes Sedi learn to heal from the Yellow Ajah teachers, and we have heard over and over again how the Yellow Ajah despises the use of herbs. Wisdoms use herbs to cure simply because they don't believe they can heal with the one power, and they cannot do it consistantly. A sister who can heal every time with the one power would have no reason to learn herbs, which will never work well enough. And now you are saying that Adeleas may have had a brain tumour or something that couldn't be healed - why couldn't a brain tumour be healed anyway? Certainly I think that if the One Power couldn't heal it, herbs would be useless. And Adeleas being a bit vague - well that also characterises the archtypical Brown sister doesn't it? In fact the sole reference you have to them knowing herbs is that Moiraine said cure instead of heal. Was this just a slip? And how did Moiraine know exactly how they had been curing patients anyway?<br /><br />Someone else had to be guarding the prisoner - Vandene and Adeleas could not have possibly guarded her 24 hours a day. At the very least, they would have had to take turns guarding Ispan, but even still it seems unlikely that no one else would have had a guarding role. Or Vandene could have killed the prisoner beforehand, when she was being guarded by the kin. There were plenty of options. And Vandene couldn't have worried about Ispan telling anyone Vandene was black (if she was) the three black oaths seem to cover that.<br /><br />Finally, you say that coming out of retirement in itself is suspecious - well, doesn't that also implicate Adeleas? Afterall, the two sisters acted exactly the same in retiring, hearing about the split in the tower (how would Vandene have explained that to Adeleas? &quot;Umm Adeleas, I know that we have no contact with the outside would, but this little raven told me the tower had split, and I think we should go join the rebels&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, and joining the rebels. If this behaviour is not consistant with a non-black sister, then both are black - so why would Vandene have killed Adeleas?<br /><br />Occum's razor - the simplest explaination is always the best. When you need to start making too many provisos it is usually a bad sign.


created: 2003-02-11 21:26:22
subject: <b>It only gets extravagant trying to explain to you</b>
body:
Where do you get the idea that wisdoms know if they can channel or not? Nynaeve certainly didn't know she could. And she only did that occasionally. It was stated that sometimes her &quot;CURES&quot; worked better than other times. Not every wisdom can channel. Some, definitely do not. Look at the current lot in the Two Rivers. They only use herbs and poultices.<br /> I got the idea that they were curing these people's ills from reading the book. It clearly states, that NO ONE IN THE VILLAGE KNEW THEY WERE AES SEDAI! Using the One Power to HEAL them, would be a dead give-away that the Power was being used! Have you noticed how people react when they are Healed? It has them shuddering and shaking, gasping for breath, as well as weakened, because the person is using some of their own strength. Hardly a reaction you would have from taking willowbark or one of those concoctions Nynaeve whips up. Obviously, the sisters were trying to keep a low profile in their village. This is why no one knew they were AS. This is why they would learn to use herbs instead of the Power. Of course, I guess you might be trying to say that Moiraine is a liar. I assume she is not, and must have knowledge of these cures the sisters have made, to think these thoughts. <br /> On top of that, some things can't be Healed. RJ has stated that some diseases cannot be Healed. Dementia or Alzheimers would fall under this category. Severed limbs cannot be reattached, as we saw in CoT. I also said it was possible she was suffering from something like this, not a forgone conclusion. And I did not say that the crimsonthorn was being used as a cure for her, but as a painkiller. It was only put forth as a possible explanation for her new-found taste for sweet tea, after drinking it unsweetened for 250 years!<br /><br /> Just when was Adeleas supposed to be able to kill Ispan earlier? They went to the Rahad in the morning, got the Bowl and captured Ispan. Vandene and Adeleas were at the meeting with the Windfinders to decide where to use the Bowl, while the Kin watched her. They left for the Kin's Farm right after that. V and A took charge of her at the Farm. Are you suggesting she should have killed them in the barn on that day? When everyone was right outside? When Elayne and Aviendha had just left them together? <br /> Or maybe later that night when everyone was packed into one house, with everyone sharing rooms with a lot of others, except for V, A and I. It would have been obvious who the killer was that particular evening. Maybe you could be more specific when it could have been done earlier? And while you are at it, why don't you find a passage where it shows someone other than those two sisters guarding her after that first day.<br /><br /> I said NOT retiring when you would be expected to, could be suspicious. <br /><br /> I also stated earlier that both could have been BA. If you are BA and ordered to kill someone, you do it. Even your own sister.<br /><br /> The term &quot;Occum's razor&quot; should only be used by people that can understand what it means. If EVERYTHING has to be EXPLAINED to you, then NOTHING is SIMPLE.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-12 17:34:01
subject: <b>Civility?</b>
body:
Now now now Light in the Night, there is no reason to lose your temper. I know exactly what Occum&#8217;s Razor means, I am a scientist, and we use it everyday. Obviously you are a bit insulted that I am treating your idea like a theory &#8211; you test a theory by trying to point out flaws, and finding a simpler explanation. You don&#8217;t like having to explain yourself &#8211; then don&#8217;t post theories that aren&#8217;t airtight &#8211; the most important part is the defence against sceptics.<br /><br />In response to your points &#8211; I don&#8217;t think that wisdoms (I am talking about Wilder Wisdoms here) know they can channel, they don&#8217;t which is why they have a bar requiring them to use herbs. But what about the ones that occasionally do Heal (unintentially) with the One Power &#8211; if this was &#8216;a dead give-away&#8217; then why did no-one realise that Nynaeve could channel? My contention is that it is not a dead give-away, WHEN IT IS PERFORMED IN HICKVILLE AND IS COVERED UP WITH THE USE OF A PLACEBO. A strong bitter tea (no need for herbcraft) that makes you feel sick will be enough to cover the sensation, especially if those how are sick are very ill. I wasn&#8217;t saying that Moiraine is a liar, just that you are reading a LOT into her phrase, especially considering there is small chance that she had much knowledge about this anyway (afterall, considering most sisters thought they were dead, implies that not many no exactly how they are curing the local farmers).<br /><br />RJ hasn&#8217;t said that some diseases cannot be Healed &#8211; Nynaeve seems to think that anything short of death should be able to be healed, but I agree with your point that using the traditional Healing weave, some things can not be Healed, but you just pulled dementia and alzheimers out of the hat, on the very slim evidence that she is a bit vague (common for a Brown). And dementia and alzheimers do not feature a large amount of pain anyway (plus, even if they cannot be healed, we have been shown that an incomplete healing is able to take away some of the symptoms such as pain &#8211; probably better than some herb). Do you need to make up such an extravagant story to explain that she changed her taste in tea? Maybe she liked to try new food, or maybe (like some of us who like to travel) she makes a point of getting to know the local food and drinks when she goes somewhere new (which is strongly implicated in the comment that she picked up the taste for sweet tea in Ebou Dar &#8211; unless you say she just happened to start getting dementia when she went to Ebou Dar). Come on!<br /><br />I now you said &#8216;NOT retiring when you would be expected to, could be suspicious&#8217;. So because she did something not suspicious, she must have been covering something? You also said that coming out of retirement WAS suspicious &#8211; my point was that both Vandene and Adeleas came out of retirement, and since you contend that Adeleas was not Black, it is obvious that this is not suspicious either. So what exactly has she done that is suspicious? <br /><br />Finally, (like your point on the honey pot being missing) I used logic to assume that at some point Adeleas was not guarding Ispan. Can Aes Sedi stay away non-stop? Do they have exquisite bladder control? At some point Adeleas must have stopped guarding Ispan. At this point she was either left unguarded or was guarded by someone else. If Vandene was a darkfriend who had been ordered to kill Ispan, why not wait until a moment like this before killing Ispan? Afterall, no one doubts that darkfriends can love other people. As far as I can see, a darkfriend would kill her sister if she had to, but if she didn&#8217;t she would avoid it. Why not slip some laxatives into that sweet tea?<br /><br />I&#8217;m not saying I don&#8217;t like the theory that Vandene is a darkfriend. I&#8217;m just saying that at the moment there is no evidence for it.<br />


created: 2003-02-13 01:02:46
subject: <b>Re Civility?</b>
body:
Your quote: &quot;You don't like having to explain yourself-then don't post theories that aren't airtight-the most important part is the defense against skeptics.&quot;<br /><br /> The definition of a theory is: 1)a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena. 2)a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.<br /><br /> By their very definition, theories cannot be airtight. <br /><br /> I have no objections to answering questions about my theory. In fact, I do so regularly. But at the end of your previous post, you implied that I was adding a bunch of provisions to validate my original theory, and then dismissed it claiming Occum's razor. That was rather pompous on your part. I responded in kind. <br /><br /> Your quote: &quot;Wisdoms use herbs to cure simply because they don't believe they can heal with the one power, and they cannot do it consistantly.&quot;<br /><br /> My response was that Nynaeve didn't know she could channel. Not every wisdom can channel. Some definitely do not.<br /><br /> Then in your next post, you change what you said.<br /> Your new quote: &quot;I don&#8217;t think that wisdoms (I am talking about Wilder Wisdoms here) know they can channel, they don&#8217;t which is why they have a bar requiring them to use herbs.<br /><br /> This contradicts your earlier statement.<br /><br /> Here is my response to that statement. In the series, the only people we have seen using the Power to Heal, are Tower trained, excluding the Forsaken and Nynaeve. This includes AS and the Kin. It is unreasonable to think that a village wisdom, that has not been Tower trained, would have any idea she was actually performing Healing. What I am saying is that they do not know they have a bar, because they don't even know they can channel. They use herblore as their way of curing people. You imply they use herbs because they can't depend on their channeling ability.<br /><br /> Your quote: &quot;But what about the ones that occasionally do Heal (unintentially) with the One Power &#8211; if this was &#8216;a dead give-away&#8217; then why did no-one realise that Nynaeve could channel? <br /><br /> I am not going to look up a quote for this, you can if you want. But the ones that Nynaeve used the Power on, (Egwene was the first, she had &quot;breakbone fever&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> were terribly sick. By this I mean feverish, and probably somewhat out of it. More than likely had the chills and shakes already, and thus would not have noticed the Power being used, nor suspected it, nor even know what the Power was. The point I am trying to make is that what you said about V and A, could be true for curing major illnesses. OTOH, using Healing on someone with a toothache or headache, or some other minor infliction that herbs could handle, would be overkill. Villagers would expect some kind of simple potion or poultice. Healing a knifewound for example, and no scar is left, would be, as I said, a dead give-away.<br /><br /> RJ has said in an interview that not everything can be Healed. I don't have the time right now to look it up, but I will later. My inclusion of Adeleas taking crimsonthorn for pain was simply an idea that popped into my head while I was writing the theory. I was trying to figure out what might have caused this change in taste. I found it an oddity, I still do, and put forth the idea as a possible explanation. If you will note however, the theory is not dependent on this being true, so it is not some elaborate tale to justify anything.<br /><br /> Your quote: &quot;So because she did something not suspicious, she must have been covering something? You also said that coming out of retirement WAS suspicious &#8211; my point was that both Vandene and Adeleas came out of retirement, and since you contend that Adeleas was not Black, it is obvious that this is not suspicious either. So what exactly has she done that is suspicious?&quot; <br /><br /> Coming out of retirement was suspicious because of what Vandene said to Moiraine: &quot;If I thought it would do any good, I would pull Adeleas's nose out of her book and go to the White Tower.&quot; <br /> I took this to mean, that by coming out of retirement, she thought it would do some good. Otherwise, why not stay where she was? (If it wouldn't do any good, why go?) But, instead of going to the WT, like she said she would, they go to Salidar. This is an inconsistency. It could be construed as a lie. If that is the case, she is BA. Also, nowhere did I state or infer that Adeleas was not Black. If you will check out some of the above posts, I even say it is possible she was.<br /><br /> Your quote: &quot;At some point Adeleas must have stopped guarding Ispan. At this point she was either left unguarded or was guarded by someone else.&quot; <br /><br /> You are making a statement here with no basis in fact. I myself do not believe there is any way that Adeleas would have left Ispan unguarded. (As to the mention you made of bladder control, they used chamber pots for those necessities, usually kept under the bed. Rarely do authors talk about performing these bodily functions.)<br /><br /> Your quote: &quot;I&#8217;m not saying I don&#8217;t like the theory that Vandene is a darkfriend. I&#8217;m just saying that at the moment there is no evidence for it.&quot;<br /><br /> That's why they are called theories. <br /><br /> IMO, there are quite a few things to at least draw suspicion to Vandene. RJ has tried to draw our attention away from her by saying the other three AS are the only suspects. Elayne, Aviendha and others in the Palace are so convinced it must be one of those three, that it would give Vandene freedom to do other things. I will not be surprised if something happens to her two novices soon. Nor will I be surprised if she isn't the guilty one either.<br /><br /> BTW, I love debating theories. If they don't hold up to scrutiny, they weren't very good. Blackboard discussions are usually much better than the MB, IMO. That's why I keep an eye out here. Sometimes I get a little defensive, and shoot my mouth off too. I've seen Occum's razor spouted too many times when someone tries to shoot down a complicated, in-depth idea. I always try to keep in mind we are discussing a fantasy novel, where everything is not black and white. Look at how deep the plots are, and you will have to agree that in the case of this story, the simplest explanation is not always the right explanation. Otherwise, we would all know who killed Asmo, and Demandred would be Taim.<br /><br /> <br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-13 21:54:09
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
In science what you gave was a hypothesis. A theory is reserved for those hypothesis that people have tried to prove wrong over and over again with no success (like the theory of relativity). Theories are not airtight true, but they are the best explanation available for a given phenomena. <br /><br />As you said, my quotes were : &quot;Wisdoms use herbs to cure simply because they don't believe they can heal with the one power, and they cannot do it consistently.&quot; and &quot;I don&#8217;t think that wisdoms (I am talking about Wilder Wisdoms here) know they can channel, they don&#8217;t which is why they have a bar requiring them to use herbs&#8221;. I&#8217;m sorry if I made myself unclear on this point. What I am trying to say is that Wilder Wisdoms or whatever the local equivalent is called (which may be only a rare class of Wisdoms, but are certainly a lot more common than just Nynaeve and the Kin &#8211; as has been made clear several times by RJ), do not know that they can channel. Like Nynaeve, they use their herbs because that is what they use to heal, but every now and again they channel without knowing, and Heal. And the locals, including Edmond Fielders, never notice. Yes, I agree with your point that this is probably unnoticed only when the people are really sick &#8211; but do we know how sick Vandene and Adeleas&#8217;s clients were? Nowhere did Moiraine say they were curing &#8220;someone with a toothache or headache&#8221;. Most likely, Vandene and Adeleas were not seen for every little grip, and maybe they were just called in if things were serious. And healing a knifewound without leaving a scar is a dead give-away is it? Well why didn&#8217;t everyone realise that the Kin could channel then? We specifically saw an example where one of the Kin tried to heal a fatal knifewound using the One Power. As it happened, the guy died from the shock, but if he had lived, he would not have had a scar. In fact the Kin as a whole prove that you can occasionally heal with the One Power without people realising.<br /><br /> Vandene said to Moiraine: &quot;If I thought it would do any good, I would pull Adeleas's nose out of her book and go to the White Tower.&quot; This is not necessarily a lie &#8211; she didn&#8217;t go to the White Tower because she didn&#8217;t think it would do any good. In fact, it is hardly even the shading of the truth we normally see from Aes Sedi. Plus, all of your possible lies Vandene has said have been to Moiraine when she would have known the truth. Why lie about minor things to an Aes Sedi who would realise and know it meant you were Black?<br /><br />If Adeleas was not Black, why kill her to kill Ispan? Why not just say, &#8220;word came down we kill Ispan&#8221;. Obviously, Adeleas was not Black, or her killer was not Black (or did not know she was Black). <br /><br />Okay, Adeleas could have gone to the toilet in front of Ispan, and dressed in front of Ispan, but what about sleeping? Common sense says Adeleas could not have been on guard 24 hours a day.<br />


created: 2003-02-14 04:26:06
subject: <b>Re: Actually</b>
body:
I got the definition straight out of Webster's Dictionary.<br /><br /> The fact that they have been retired in this village for so long, increases the chances they have cured minor as well as major afflictions. As to the Ebou Dari Wise Women, they are rather famous for their Healing it appears. Here is a quote from LoC, Under the Dust, HB, p.244:<br /> &quot;You would like Ebou Dar, Nynaeve. Ebou Dari Wise Women know more about herbs than anybody. They can cure anything. They have to, because Ebou Dari fight duels over a sneeze, noble or common, men or women.&quot; <br /> The fact that they are using herbs to cover up their channeling is obvious. No one suspects they are channeling because of their reputation to heal anything, thus no one is surprised when there is no scar. Besides, if you have just taken a serious knife wound, you would more than likely be in a state of shock, and much less likely to notice Healing being performed.  Lesser wounds might be tended to another way.<br /><br /> With AS twisting of words, it is hard to tell if someone is lying until you catch them straight out. Her statement is at least questionable. There is no evidence she headed to the WT in any case. If she didn't think it would do any good, why did she go anywhere? You might as well stay put. The part about naming Mazrim Taim, certainly looked like a slip of the tongue to me, especially when she calls him &quot;this fellow in Saldaea&quot; moments later. My stance is that AS that just came from the Tower like Liandrin or Anaiya did not appear to know his name. We know there are dovecotes at the Tower, bringing messages from eyes and ears all the time. The Blues are reported to have the best network, yet Anaiya, who is Blue, doesn't name him. Other people's stances say Vandene and Adeleas learned about him through their own eyes and ears. It is possible I suppose, just very improbable that their personal network is better than the Blues, IMO. This is why I put forth the idea the sisters had contact with the Tower, and backed it up with Vandene's knowledge of Martine Janata. That kind of info certainly came from there, since that is where it happened. This makes it more likely she should have known how many male channelers the Reds have captured over the intervening years. Either she thought Moiraine wouldn't know since she doesn't spend much time in the Tower, she actually did not know, or it could be a mistake on RJ's part as Burr suggested. That has been known to happen. <br /><br /> As to why Adeleas was killed is simple. Whoever was guarding her had to die. Think about it. If you just came in and tried to kill Ispan, Adeleas would try to stop you. If she stopped you, you are caught as a DF or attempted murderer. If she doesn't try to stop you, she is fingered as a DF. She would also be alive to testify who you are. If they killed Ispan together, their only choice would be to flee, and they would both be sought as DFs. <br /> The main thing was, I believe, to make it look like whoever did it had to kill Adeleas to get to Ispan. Less suspicion that way, by murdering the guard, and no witnesses. Or, it could have been a direct order to kill them both. <br /><br /> There is a passage in the books somewhere, LoC I think, about maintaining a shield. It is Tower Law, I believe, or custom. At any rate, it says that you cannot tie off the weave for a shield. This means you must remain awake. I understand what you are getting at, I simply assume that since Vandene and Adeleas were the ones in charge of guarding Ispan, they took turns sleeping. This is also why I brought up the whole thing about the link they made when they first took Ispan. As best as I can tell, they remained linked. One can sleep and still maintain the link. However, since she would be maintaining an active weave, Vandene should have felt that link broken when Adeleas died. That is a major source of my suspicion towards her. I felt RJ put all that info about them linking, being able to sleep while maintaining it, and what it felt like to have the link broken, in there for a reason.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-19 21:51:18
subject: <b>in defense of Light in the Night....</b>
body:
&quot;Nynaeve seems to think that anything short of death should be able to be healed, but I agree with your point that using the traditional Healing weave, some things can not be Healed, but you just pulled dementia and alzheimers out of the hat, on the very slim evidence that she is a bit vague (common for a Brown).&quot; -Adrian<br /><br /><br />One might think that perhaps Adrian is being a bit hasty with her assumptions here...<br /><br /><br />&quot;On top of that, some things can't be Healed. RJ has stated that some diseases cannot be Healed. Dementia<br /> or Alzheimers would fall under this category. Severed limbs cannot be reattached, as we saw in CoT. I also<br /> said it was possible she was suffering from something like this, not a forgone conclusion.&quot; -Light in the Night<br /><br /><br />in this quote, Light in the night does not state ANYWHERE that she believes Ade has dementia or alzheimers. Light in the night simply states that these are two diseases that cannot be Healed, not that they are what Ade is suffering from. At least, that's how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong, Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />   Sometimes, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps in the morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />


created: 2003-07-07 03:22:50
subject: <b>What the doctor ordered</b>
body:
Amazingly well written theory.  You kept the assumptions to a minimum, and even your relatively &quot;big&quot; assumptions need not be valid for the theory to hold.<br />THANK YOU for finally enlightening me to the &quot;answer&quot; Moiraine thought Vandene provided, but couldn't put her finger on.  I swear, this is my 5th time through the series, and I have read that chapter well over 20 times.  I just couldn't put it together!!!  I was missing the dialogue between Moiraine, Anaiya &amp; Liandrin; and SS &amp; Moiraine.  That should be a theory on it's own!!!<br />---<br />&quot;The 'answer, or a hint to an answer' to the question Moiraine didn't ask&quot;<br />---<br />Beautifully done, Light.  This is just the way RJ is supposed to be figured out.  I mean, whether this is true or not, you have brought together facts, observations, and RJ-hints in the story from the MANY places they are contained, and put this together very accurately.  There are always those passages that I read and say to myself, &quot;This means something.  I got to write this down so so I can remember!&quot;  But let's be realistic, there's WAY TOO MANY of those passages.  My hat is off to you for being able to do this!<br />Lastly, I decided to actually read through the Blackboard before submitting my comments, and NELLY that's some intense discussion.  :-)<br />I hope this is RAFO, not like Asmo's murderer, which will never be definitively answered by having Graendal think &quot;She had enjoyed doing that deed almost as much as...&quot;<br />RJ has stated that the answer has been provided, and after reviewing all the facts, the evidence points to Graendal.  I would consider this case to be RJ-obvious, as Adeleas' murderer is also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 06:11:50
subject: <b>I haven't checked in here in awhile</b>
body:
To Spykicrymson- No, at least I don't think I said outright that Adeleas was inflicted with either of those diseases. I believe I said it's possible she had something like them. Her and Vandene are/were both quite old, afterall, so perhaps there were other reasons to retire to the countryside. Several times we saw her lose her train of thought, indicative of something perhaps. <br /> Plus, there is that one passage where it says even the flies avoided her(Adeleas). This has always bothered me, wondering why RJ threw this in. I will venture a wild guess here, and people can make of it what they will. Insects can be very perceptive. Mosquitoes will avoid biting you if you have eaten a lot of garlic, for instance. This also works with fleas on your dog or cat. Maybe the flies avoid her because she has been taking crimsonthorn root?<br /><br /> To Bane_of_Ignorance- Yeah, sometimes these BB posts get a little heated, especially when someone is defending their theory. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and hopefully provoked some thoughts of your own on the subject.<br /><br /> As to the question that Moiraine didn't ask, even I have had second thoughts about that now. After I wrote this, Diomedes wrote a theory based on what I revealed here. It's called, &quot;What Mo Don't Know&quot;. I suggest you read it, as it provides another possibility, as well as an explanation as to why Verin might have thought Moiraine sent her after Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 12:33:29
subject: <b>Other evidence Vandene may not have done it.</b>
body:
First, in The Great Hunt, we find that Liandrin followed Moiraine when she left the procession back to the Tower.  This could be the person, known to be black ajah, to have warded the drakkhar.  Second, you stated that the village believes the Sisters to be kind of like a Wisdom.  They could just be giving some mint leaves and using saidar.  Vandene doesn't seem to me to be the one who killed her sister.  Vandene severely mourns her death, but doesn't under mourn or over mourn it.  She is dedicated to avenge her sister.  <br /><br />Next, you observed that Adeleas started liking really sweet tea in Ebou Dar.  This is the same place at least 2 attempts have been made on her life.  Why would that suddenly happen?  If Vandene had any intention of killing Adeleas, she had ample time before going to Salidar to kill her.  These attempts on her life didn't start until Ebou Dar.  Even before the Kin were found and Ispan captured.  This leaves the AS in the Ebou Dar.  But, further in the books, apparantly the same thing is done in Cairhein with the Aiel who are guarding Katerine Aluddrin.  This makes me think it is someone who knows how to travel and knows herbs.  I do not think it is Nynaeve.  But it would most probably be one of the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dora Sedai<br />Keeper of the Notes<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 04:10:08
subject: <b>Re: Dora Sedai</b>
body:
Yes, Liandrin did leave after Moiraine and Lan left. I don't think there is any evidence to show she followed them, or had the ability to. Nynaeve was able to, to Lan's surprise, but she was trained in woodcraft by her father. Liandrin was raised in a city, then spent years in the Tower. Where or when would she learn woodcraft?  <br /><br />As for the Draghkar, I intentionally left out who might have warded it, or even sent it. Where would Liandrin get one from? She certainly can't Travel. Show me one example of a Black sister commanding Shadowspawn, and you might be able to lend at least some credence to this claim. Most likely it was sent by a Forsaken. <br /><br />Being Healed or cured by herbs are quite different. Would they use the Power on everyone that came to them with a runny-nose or a sore throat? The simple ailments a lot of people have can be taken care of with simple cures that would not attract attention. Think about it this way; almost everyone knows about willowbark being good for a headache or toothache. If the two of them didn't show at least a little knowledge of herbcraft, people would have suspected them of being more than just two old women. Besides that, not all sisters have talent for Healing. Sheriam and Elayne can't Heal much more than a bruise.<br /><br />I found her reaction to her sister's death a little wrong, mtself. When she first sees her with her slit throat, she's pretty calm, Aes Sedai serenity or no. Then she wails like a child after the girls leave. For a sister she was so close to, I think that's backwards, and none of the people there should have expected less than her to wail when she first saw her dead sister. Now she seems to be a little over the top, IMO. Wearing her sisters clothes, using her saddle, etc. Where is that AS serenity now?<br /><br />I only noted one attempt on Adeleas's life in Ebou Dar, IIRC. At any rate, who knows when she became seen as a threat? As I pointed out, it's very unlikely they were looking for runaways in Ebou Dar. If Vandene is a Black sister, and if she was sent looking for the cache of angreals for someone, what would Adeleas reaction be when they found the stash? Adeleas would insist on them being returned to the Tower. Then Vandene would have to kill her face-to-face, and from all appearances, Adealeas was stronger in the Power. (We see a scene where Adeleas lifts the attempted killers up to a second-story window and push them through. Siuan has told us in LoC that this is one of the most difficult things to do. Before she was stilled, she could lift three times her weight). That's at least one possible scenario. <br /><br />Even if Vandene is Black, I think she still loved her sister. It would be hard to kill her herself, so she might have hired some thugs to try, or it could just be a coincidence, too. (I doubt this though, it looks like foreshadowing to me). You must ask yourself this, too. If you think it was one of the other AS in Ebou Dar that killed her, did they make this earlier attempt also? If so, why? What was she doing to be a threat to an AS that were, from all appearances, sitting around the Tarasin Palace doing nothing? For all these AS knew, Vandene and Adeleas were looking for runaways. Why didn't they go after Vandene, too?<br /><br />And as for Katerine's escape, I don't believe for one second that a Forsaken would waste their time, or take the chance, of going into the middle of that Aiel encampment to rescue a Black sister. The Forsaken just don't have that high of a regard for these &quot;half-trained children&quot;. It is much more plausible that a DF Wise One did the deed. Not all of them channel, and the ones that do, don't know Healing. They use herbs, as witnessed on the slopes of Rhuidean. A Wise One would have been able to walk her right out of the camp, no questions asked, once they were away from her guards, or she might have been able to walk away by herself, dressed as a gai'shain, since most people don't pat them too much attention, especially if they are on an errand or doing chores.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-29 01:24:53
subject: <b>The Switch</b>
body:
I posted a theory here a while ago (years now) that the it was ADDY that was alive.<br /><br />The big problem was the warder right?<br /><br />I had found a passage concerning Lan and his Eyes after Moraine was gone and his bond switched they discribed a new look to them. Which at the time we obviously tood for madness of a sort. However an almost identical description of Jaem's eys is given after Addy's murder.<br /><br />I need to re-read about Mat but there is one point I think in which he is confronted with one of the sisters but he doesnt know which. They are supposed to be mirrors of each other as well. <br /><br />I also seem to remember some comment while still in Ebu Dar that Vandene was the one with the sweet-tooth.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 21:19:34
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
All your evidence merely points to Vandene knowing more than she should, wich in no way makes her a murderer. Retired or not she was an Aes Sedai and they have ways of gaining information, even if it's just a pigeon. Plenty of Aes Sedai also have spys throughout the cities, so who's to Say Vandene does'nt. And just because she is retired that does not mean she would nesscarily cut off all contact with any informers she may have. No all I'm conviced of is that Vandene is just someone who likes to be kept abreast of things. As for the tea. These women had been traveling together for a while, any one would know that Vandene'a sister liked her tea sweet. They also could have taken the honey with them. Sorry I just don't see any conclusice evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jenin Wolferin Greystorm.<br /><br /><br />Let the Lord of Chaos rule.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />I like Pie!<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-15 12:40:17
subject: <b>just a thought...</b>
body:
the characters have been confusing adeleas and vandene throughtout all of the books, and now Vandene has taken to wearing adelas' clothes and is using her saddle. has RJ ever actually confirmed that the body is Adelas? do you think it possible that  the characters have been tricked or is that too far-fetched?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-06 01:54:53
subject: <b>yes, plus</b>
body:
Vandene did it, for all of your reasons, plus 2.<br /><br />Ispan probably would not have been offered tea, so somebody else had some.  It would be easy to mark the poisoned tea in some way.<br /><br />SOMEONE sent the warded draghkar (sp?) to kill Mo when she was visiting the sisters.  <br /><br />Vandene and/or Jaem is a darkfriend.  Vandene could have used the power to drive the stake into Ispan, or she could have had help form either Jaem or Slayer to do it.


created: 2005-11-29 12:05:31
subject: <b>The killer might not be BA</b>
body:
Really, if you want to kill someone in a horrible, slow way; a stake through the heart is all well and good....unless you can channel.  I'm sure something far more diabolical can be conceived using the Power than any old stake-through-the-heart routine.  Not like anyone would've considered channeling in the hut to be suspicious.<br />So, to me, that says that the killer either can't channel, or can't use the Power as a weapon.


created: 2007-05-02 22:03:02
subject: <b>pas tout &#224; fait...</b>
body:
what you have written is definitely food for thought but i can not say that Vandene is Black, simply on the nature of her grief and the relationship between herself and her sister; it would be much more likely that Adeleas was Black and her murder was justice, and that is strectching it a tad too far.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When one person suffers from a delusion it is called 'insanity'; When many people suffer from a delusion it is called 'religion'</font><p></p>


created: 2009-03-09 20:42:23
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
I know this is not true b/c Saeretha Killed her. Falion or another BA named her &quot;one of our own&quot;


created: 2003-01-16 13:10:05
subject: <b>Mat saw them too</b>
body:
I do not have my book with me right now, but didn't Mat see some dead people too.  He was walking with Tuon and her bodygaurd into the town to buy some silk and he almost ran into 3 people.  Both of the women looked at him like he was crazy.  I like this theory as well (as much as a newbie's opinion counts).


created: 2003-01-16 13:18:50
subject: <b>yes, Mat saw dead people too....</b>
body:
Where's Haley Joel Osment when you really need him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 13:28:07
subject: <b>I agree it's happening, but why?</b>
body:
The DO's ability to bring people back from the dead seems to be limited to those with a connection to him, and in fact he himself has admitted that he cannot step outside of time. So why is his increased power bringing the dead back to life?<br /><br />Is it possible that in some way time, the wheel, or the one power itself is decaying? The wheel after all is powered by the true power, and there have been several indications that the one power might be failing (Egwene's commenent, the decay of the seals themselves). Maybe the wheel is grinding to a halt. This might be because the DO is causing it (he has previously indicated he wished to kill time) or it may be that the one power's decline is what is allowing him to break free. Either way, the Last Battle becomes the battle for time itself.<br /><br />These are all just (slightly mad) ramblings, but they could suggest a new possibility for the old 'twice dawns the day' question.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 13:55:14
subject: <b>I also like it...</b>
body:
As soon as I started reading this theory the rats in the White Tower came to mind. Also, a comment from Alvairin's POV.<br /><br />&quot;Nothing moved except for a rat that went scuttling away with a faint click of claws on the flagstones. That almost made her smile. Almost. The Great Lord's eyes riddled the Tower, now, though no one seemed to have noticed that the wardings had failed. She did not think it was anything that Messana had done; the wards simply no longer worked  as they were supposed to. There were ... gaps.&quot; (CoT P502)<br /><br />This coupled with Shaidar Haran's apparent increase in power and everything mentioned in the theory all point to the seals weakening. Some might actually be broken where ever they are hidden.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 15:09:55
subject: <b>There are the Dark Theories still to be fulfilled.</b>
body:
The Watchers wait on Toman Head.<br />The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.<br />Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes. <br />Now the Great Lord comes.<br /><br />-The Great Hunt, Blood Calls Blood<br /><br /><br />We've been waiting for some kind of pestilence/famine to occur since TGH (or I have, anyway).  Like you, I don't believe Fain is responsible for the rats, weevils and ghosts.  I think the ghosts have something to do with what the Maiden's told the Tinkers:  Sightblinder plans to blind the Eye of the World and break the great wheel itself (or something close to that).<br /><br />If the DO does want to break the wheel, then there are all sorts of ramifications, don't you think?  There are all the souls waiting in T'A'R that are linked to the wheel.  As the DO sqeezes farther and farther out of the bore and gets closer to his goal, are the boundaries between &quot;reflections&quot; of the wheel (such as T'A'R) and the &quot;real&quot; world beginning to fail?  If so, that would explain the ghosts to some extent.<br /><br />As far as the pestilence of weevils and rats,  I think those are reflections that the DO's power to touch the world is increasing.<br /><br />It's interesting that the wards against rats have &quot;gaps&quot;.  It brings up all sorts of questions as to how the DO is able to mess with the One Power.  I assume he weilds the TP - does the TP then have precedence over the OP?  Is that how he's going to try to &quot;break&quot; the wheel?  The opposite forces of the two halves of the OP (saidar and saidin) working against each other are what drives the wheel forward.  If the DO is able to mess with saidar wards, even in such a seemingly innocuous way, what ramifications does that have on his power over the wheel itself?<br /><br />What do you all think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It is a medium of entertainment which permits millions of people to listen to the same joke at the same time, and yet remain lonesome.&quot;<br /><br />TS Eliot regarding television</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 16:32:47
subject: <b>Perhaps reflecting the decay of the series?</b>
body:
Sorry, but I had to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 16:51:17
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
i like this theory, i had thought at first that Saidar got tainted in some way during the cleansing, but that wouldnt explain So Harbor. I agree fully that it is the DO's touch, so far we have had long winter, long summer, i doubted he'd make long fall or spring, so whats left to wreak havoc with...thats right famine and disease. that explains the weevils.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 18:46:49
subject: <b>LOL EM</b>
body:
That was too funny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 01:17:26
subject: <b>Hehe</b>
body:
I think this is probably one of the few theories that I agree with from CoT that I didn't think of myself during the reading. And, if the book didn't hint that the next one is going to be amazing, spectacular, and side-plot-closing, then I would have to agree with Eyeless Myrdrrall.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 01:26:53
subject: <b>Anyone else think...</b>
body:
That the failing power is going to directly effect the final battle??<br /><br />Rand has been adamant about becoming a master at swordwork, and has all the ashaman learning the sword as well as the power (if I am remembering correctly).<br /><br />So - if the power fails near or at the last battle, Rand can still fight, as well as his men.  Now - what does that mean for the women? and How will that effect the Forsaken.. ???  Shrug... I just see it being slowly set up for a complete failure of power . . . and yet there would still be a way to fight.<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-17 02:40:25
subject: <b>The Power failing,,,</b>
body:
What happens if during or just before the last battle, both sides unleash some seriously strong balefire?  If the Aes Sedai who weave the wardings and keepings are the ones to get hit wouldn't their weavings have no effect for as long as the backburn of the balefire lasted?  Could this mean that the Battle of Balefire could be just around the corner time wise?  <br /><br />The Dead may be a combination of the DO's influence and the weakening of the pattern by the balefire.


created: 2003-01-17 06:28:42
subject: <b>To Kill Time itself</b>
body:
Have to say I totally agree with this theory and its produced some good thoughts. Random Monkey's random thoughts on the Power driving the WoT failing and therefore time itself definite envoke questions of what happens after that? <br /><br />Tenshin, I'm not too sure about your idea, I do like it. People seeing &quot;Ghosts&quot; of folk before they are dead. Nice and Dark, but why is there such randomn deaths? I'd of thought whole towns would get wiped out if it went to balefire warfare. Plus doesn't the wife of the Lord of So Harbor appear as a ghost, who is already dead?<br /><br />Anyway all good stuff<br /><br />Dai Lau


created: 2003-01-17 09:46:17
subject: <b>a couple of thoughts on your theory</b>
body:
- I have said this before, but in Glimmers there is another sighting, one of the maids says she &quot;saw old Maringil walking the halls&quot;<br /><br />- Has everyone forgot that &quot;belief and order strehgthen the seals&quot; yadda yadda<br /><br />- Perhaps the role of the horn of valere is for the heroes to fight these apparitions? Like the fact that the wolves must fight the darkhounds?


created: 2003-01-17 11:11:07
subject: <b>Turnings of the Wheel and the loss of the One Power</b>
body:
I dont know if any one remembers but in either book one when the group meets the Nym(Green Man) he says he remembers a time before people could wield the power. I think that this age, the third, is when people lose their conection to saidar/saidin. this could explain why things of the power are failing; the one power itself is beginning to fade from the world. I think that as a cost to seal the dark one back in to his prison completly there will be no more channelers and the world will forget the power until the 7th age or the next 1st age, which would give them time to advance technology and learn lots of things about the power in time to defeat the dark one when his prison is once again opened in the 2nd age(Age of Legends). this is of course unless you think that time will become linear after tarmon Gaidan.


created: 2003-01-17 11:13:22
subject: <b>This fits nicely with the prophesies...</b>
body:
...at the beginning of the book.  I don't have it in front of me (my hubby took it to work with him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> ), but it essentially says that the Dark One grows stronger while everyone else is busy taking their dear sweet time making decisions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...but that's just my opinion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Now resuming lurk mode<br /><br />Brown Ajah<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Hmmm...fascinating<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> (scritch, scri, scritch)</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 13:06:08
subject: <b>The End...</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that the last battle will remove the ability to channel. I firmly believe that after the last battle the world will be pretty damn similar to the one we live in now.<br /><br />Remember all the vague hints about guns, aeroplanes, etc, Rand building the steam engine...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 14:37:43
subject: <b>Leaks in the Well of Souls</b>
body:
Does anyone think that this decay may have happened before during the Collapse in the Age of Legends? Thoughts of the Forsaken on this decay would be most revealing.<br /><br />The Dark One's touch upon the world is certainly increasing, so ghosts and decay of everythings are happening. Personally, I feel this is a weakening of the boundaries between the world and wherever souls are resting from death or waiting to be reborn (I call this place the Well of Souls, separate from Tel'aran'rhiod which is reserved for the souls of Heroes of the Horn). The world is becoming something closer to what a Lord of the Grave would like. So I agree with the gist of the theory.<br /><br />RJ said that the damage of the Breaking of the World lessens the farther away you go from Shayol Ghul. This is born out by how many more cuendillar relics survive in Seanchan than in the Westlands. Does the same hold true for the decay? It would be interesting to see how a Seanchan compare the decaying conditions with those of the Seanchan continent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:31:10
subject: <b>To Gaerin</b>
body:
Quick point, in tGH Rand et al travel by waypoint to a world where the DO had won, and the result was, apparently, that all life had been virtually wiped out. For me these ghosts (I don't agree with spudman's point that these ghosts serve the DO, so far they seem to be fairly random manifestations) are suggestive of a general break down in reality.<br /><br />Also, so far (and I'm the first to admit that we don't have that much evidence from else where) so far only the power seems to be faiing in the north (in particular around TV) while the dead themselves are appearing in the south. In terms of dire consequences I'm not sure which is worst, but the decay would possibly seem to be further advanced in the south. Something to do with Elayne's channeling-style nuke? (Just another random thought)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 21:58:09
subject: <b>Saidar isn't failing...</b>
body:
The DO's strength in the world is growing and Saidar by itself is no longer strong enough to counter the DO...but Saidar and Saidin are.


created: 2003-01-17 23:24:02
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
Wow Beidomon, if your little theory there turns true just think about how much more complicated the WoT series would have just become. I mean its really complicated right now but if it suddenly forms a solid connection to our &quot;world&quot; the plot would become so much more vast.


created: 2003-01-19 03:35:42
subject: <b>Loss of the One Power</b>
body:
Personally, I would love to see the end of the One Power. And I would hope that RJ would describe the after effects so we could read all about these snotty, snooty Aes Sedai moan and groan and have withdrawal fits.


created: 2003-01-21 16:51:52
subject: <b>Hmm...consider this...</b>
body:
Could So Habor's problems be in any way related to bubbles of evil? Mayhap a bubble burst there...we already know that ANYTHING could happen. As for the weevils, I have yet to come up with something.


created: 2003-01-21 22:51:07
subject: <b>I agree...but</b>
body:
I agree With your theory, just as the weather was being influenced by the DO (as in the long winter ending in The Eye of the World and the long Summer). The Increase in decay is the same thing, I think that a solution will have to be found for this interference as food supplies dwindle and people face starvation. I also believe that it will be solved by the tinkers and the Ogiers, In TSR Rand Sees the Aiel and Ogier grow an entire crop in one day by singing. I also believe this is the song that the travelling people are searching for. Just some guess's but I believe they have some merit


created: 2003-01-21 23:36:11
subject: <b>Fuzzy Boundaries</b>
body:
I'm not sure if this is what Random Monkey was getting at but...<br />since other worlds exists (we know this since Rand was in one with Lanfear) the &quot;ghosts&quot; people see could still be alive in these other worlds.  And since the DO has been getting stronger and affecting things more and more, maybe the boundaries b/t worlds are getting fuzzy.  <br />Hmm... the descriptions of them just bother me tho... I don't have CoT w/ me, but aren't they glaring at some of the people in So Harbor?  And the Lord's wife kind of chases him out of town?  I got the impression he either killed her or had her killed or some kind of scandal...<br />But I'm new at all this theory stuff and I'm so lost in these multiple plotlines... you can all ignore me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> Avi Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Bela <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br />(ahem... it's &quot;Avienda&quot; ~~ no 'h' please!)


created: 2003-01-26 03:18:20
subject: <b>When worlds collide...</b>
body:
I don't believe that it was ghosts that were seen. <br /><br />The Wheel is time itself, it weaves the Great Pattern. <br /><br />The Wheel touches other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. <br />The Wheel is powered by the True Source. <br /><br />The Creator, the True Source, and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel and the Great Pattern. <br /><br />The seals that hold the Dark One in prison are weakening, thus allowing the Dark One to influence the world(s), we have seen such influence on the weather in Randland so it's highly probable that other worlds also experienced unseasonable weather. <br /><br />The Dark One ultimately desires to destroy time itself (the Wheel). So it seems that The Dark One would begin towards the accomplishment of that goal as soon as possible.<br /><br />So if the Dark One is weakening the Wheel which keeps these worlds apart soon these worlds would collide or maybe more like blend together.<br /><br />I believe the &quot;ghosts&quot; were actually people from those other worlds blending in and out of Randland.<br /><br />Also another possibility that could cause the Wheel to falter and allow worlds to blend is the large drain on the True Source which powers the Wheel.<br /><br />Rand and Nynaeve used an extraordinary amount of the True Source for quite a long duration, and this was what we know of only in Randland. <br /><br />How many other worlds was this same event occurring simultaneously?


created: 2003-01-26 21:32:41
subject: <b>Death Shall Sow and Reap</b>
body:
This decay also includes people not caring about hygiene anymore. Having no hygiene precedes illnesses. Is this the prelude to the plague we have all been anxiously waiting for?<br /><br />The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.<br />Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Now the Great Lord comes.<br /><br />The seed is surely the Seanchan come to reclaim the Westlands, and the burning summer already happened. That &quot;bodies fail&quot; part hasn't happened yet. It has been generally believed it meant a plague coming to decimate the world in the face of the Shadow. <br /><br />Symbollically, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are riding through WoT. War, Famine, Pestilence and Death. In the Westlands, famine has happened and war is raging everywhere. Death always happens in war, but Death (capital D) will happen if/when the Dark One is free. Pestilence hasn't happened, but it sounds like it may be soon after CoT due to the decay across the nations.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 08:05:52
subject: <b>early weevil</b>
body:
It's not only in CoT that weevils are appearing. They&#8217;re also in Caemlyn. Winter&#8217;s Heart chapter 8:<br /><br />&#8220;&#8230;but much of the flour is full of weevils and moths, and half the cured hams have turned, as well as most of the smoked fish.&#8221; <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Eleanor Jagad  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The information contained in this message is confidential; disclosure, duplication and/or distribution of this message, without the Amyrlin's consent, is prohibited. This message is sealed to the Flame.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-26 19:45:24
subject: <b>Parting of the veil</b>
body:
With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and THE VEIL OF PARTING RAISED. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.<br /><br />This is one of the prophecies about Rand.  The veil of parting would probably be the barrier between life and death.  If it's raised, then we have ghosts running around whenever and wherever they please.


created: 2003-01-17 17:20:10
subject: <b>ba-BING!!!</b>
body:
BRILLIANT! Makes perfect sense; it's something that sharp ol' Egwene would think of. Yup, now the harbor's blocked and the Tower sisters are fried. Poor Egwene, though. But hey, this fits perfectly well with her dream: &quot;Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop. If not...In that corner of her mind, she felt a chill.&quot; (A Crown of Swords, 250) <br /><br />Here's hoping Egwene makes it out of this mess with her head still attached.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 17:23:59
subject: <b>i thought that was obvious</b>
body:
i thought straight away &quot;she's turned the chain to cuendillar&quot;.  maybe that's just me, but i didn;t think it was difficult enough to figure out to warrant a theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 17:48:37
subject: <b>good work</b>
body:
nice theory, i thought it was a bit obvious that she turned the chain in to fused heartstone to block the harbor. but why the whole chain, she could have just turned the mechanisms that hoist the chains up and down, that way she can just cut the chains below where they were heartstone and put in a new chain system. after all when she takes the Tower back, the chains are still there blocking off river traffic, and how is she gonna fix that?<br />she has a good plan to take the tower, but i dont see that helping her in the longrun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 18:12:47
subject: <b>Good work</b>
body:
Even if this was a little obvious; I like your theory. <br />I wonder how Egwene is gonna get rid of the chain once the siege is over ? Balefire ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:07:06
subject: <b>Riiiiight . . . no kidding</b>
body:
um, no offense, but did this really warrant a theory?  in my mind, the fact that theories like these are posted just further reinforces what a dissapointing book CoT was.  i guess with the lack of any advancement in the many mysteries that still remain unresolved, theories like this are all that we have.  again, nothing personal, it just blows my mind that anyone can even consider a summary of events designed for people too slow-witted to realize the obvious to be a &quot;theory&quot; in any sense of the word.


created: 2003-01-17 19:38:08
subject: <b>No offence, but...</b>
body:
Got to agree with the general consensus, this isn't a theory, it's repeating what's in the book. It isn't as though RJ was particularly subtle about what was happening...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:40:03
subject: <b>Right..</b>
body:
For some reason, as soon as I saw them making cuendillar I knew they were going to do it to the chains, and was just kind of waiting for it the rest of the book.  I think it said it lowered the chains rather than coiling them, but still it may have changed the mechanism as well.<br /><br />What I'd really like to see is a theory on how they're going to change it back.  The only way I can see is to blast out section of the wall and let the chain sink, but that wall is hard stuff too...


created: 2003-01-17 20:16:43
subject: <b>Sounds good to me</b>
body:
I also don't see why they wouldn't start re-enforcing their armies' weapons and armor by transforming it to cuendillar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 23:07:35
subject: <b>Power wrought wepons...</b>
body:
I think that weapons transformed in it to cuendillar would be the same as creating a weapon for one man to kill another which goes against one on those pesky three oaths.<br /><br />specifically...<br /><br />Under the Light, I vow never to make a weapon for one man to kill another.<br /><br />Stupid Oaths!<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-17 23:12:03
subject: <b>I Think it warrants a theory</b>
body:
Much as you dont want to admit it when I read them turning the chain to Heartstone I was a bit confused. This has nicely cleared things up and since these books are quite complicated every piece of knowledge broken down into its simplest form will make things much easier to understand.<br /><br />Of course there is always the statement &quot;If you dont like it dont read it.&quot;


created: 2003-01-18 05:30:38
subject: <b>Cuendillar weapons</b>
body:
Technically, it wouldn't be making a weapon for one man to kill another. The weapons are already made; what has been suggested is only improving them. This may go against the spirit of the oath, but not the letter, and we know how they've treated the lying oath.<br /><br />However, I suspect that cuendillar swords and armour might be a bit heavy. Also, though the armour would be impenetrable, the only thing that would really be useful for is defending against the power, as armour can withstand most sword-blows anyway with little more than a dent. However, cuendillar armour wouldn't stop an Aes Sedai making your head explode, and they're hardly going to spend weeks turning everyone's armour into cuendillar just for the sake of a few dents. Swords also - they wouldn't break, but how often do swords break anyway? Being indestructible doesn't mean it can destroy anything else any more easily- we have no reason to think that a heartstone sword would be any better at cutting things up. Besides, everyone would have to remember to sharpen their swords perfectly before having them turned - however sharp they are when turned is how sharp they stay forever!<br /><br />In short, I think cuendillar weapons would be perfectly possible, just not very useful, especially given the length of time they'd need for it.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 08:46:53
subject: <b>This DOES need a theory</b>
body:
Let's not go over the top on what does and doesn't need a theory here. It's not clearly stated in the book. It may be obvious to some people, but clearly not to all.


created: 2003-01-18 19:13:30
subject: <b>but then what?</b>
body:
What will happen to an again-peaceful Tar Valon with the harbors permanently blocked?  I agree with your theory though.


created: 2003-01-19 03:48:30
subject: <b>Gateway</b>
body:
Could be possible to cut a thing from cuendillar via gateway? Why not, it's not offensive power directed into the thing. Open a gateway stick the cuendillar thingy in it , one part of it will be in one place, the other somewhere far away, the let the flows dissipate... Tada! It's cut in half! (And if it manages NOT to let a gateway close then it's also very useful{blocking a closing gateway! only Rand, Demandred and Graendal can do it, as it was stated somewhere, so why not make ever-lasting Travelling portals?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> So the chain probably can be cut using a power-technique that (supposedly) only the rebels know. Thoug one must wonder if the heartstone can prevent gates opened in the same position it is, thus being neccessary to MOVE the chain INTO the gateway to cut it. I was also wondering why can't the rebels open 4 gateways in shape of a rectandle and cut through the walls? Making new ones is easy: make them out of thin sheats of iron and turn it into cuendillar, ha! thin and indestructible. As for concerning cuendillar armour/weapons, you can make FOIL ultrathin armour AND turn it into cuendillar thus making it LIGHTWEIGHT and INPENETRATABLE at the same time, and imagine using Earth to create a very very thin strip of metal and making it heartstone- it would be a VERY shapr and light indestructible sword that can be wielded much faster then a regular one cutting through almost anything. And the thin armour can be created to cover the body from top to bottom, making the solgiers unstoppapble, include into the outfit robes out of fancloth(WHY hasn't anyone besides the Watcher thought of that, plain cloaks cover you partly) and you get a groop of unseen, unstoppable, unequaled men who will be the best military force in Randland. And concerning the fact that even regular platemail can stop swords, remember firearms, iron will NOT stop bullets/shrapnel, only cuendillar will. <br />-=Burzum Durbatuluk=-<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 12:11:33
subject: <b>gateways and whatnot</b>
body:
The important, less obvious, part of the theory was not that Egwene turned the chain into cuendillar, but that the chain links would fuse togethe rather than each separately turning into its own piece of cuendillar.<br /><br />A standard gateway probably could not cut cuendillar.  Once the weave touches the cuendillar, the gateway would collapse or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 00:52:46
subject: <b>It did need a theory</b>
body:
Although half or more of the people who read CoT already figured it out, what about the other half, who wouldn't get it otherwise. And I think that the way they'll get rid of it is to take out the whole mechanism. Just because it's Heartstone doesn't mean it's not able to be moved. And with the super light-weight swords, they wouldn't work half as well as you might thin, because they aren't heavy enough to stop a swing from another sword. Whoever they fought could just put all their strength behind a swing, aimed at the neck, and good luck stopping it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 08:14:36
subject: <b>Blocking the harbour</b>
body:
None of the Salidar Sitters will believe that Egwene is a Dreamer, and they will not listen to her when she tells them about and interprets her Dreams. <br />In Ebou Dar, a Seanchan Captain of the Air, Yulan(?),is planning an attack on Tar Valon. Kuryd Fareke has the maps on his table when the seeker arrives.<br />Egwene knows, she has seen the attack in her Dream, and since she cannot make the Sitters listen to her at all, she does what she can to protect the Tower. A chain of cuendillar will not break, even attacked by damane. <br /><br />Egwene turned the chains into cuendillar to protect the White Tower, not to attack. Even though she hates Elaida, she loves the Tower, and her ultimate goal is a united Tower.


created: 2003-01-20 13:46:51
subject: <b>egwene slightly slow?</b>
body:
Assuming that this theory is right .....what is egwene planning...Assuming she makes the chain into cuendillar... how will she remove it when and if  she succeeds in her plan.<br />starve to death as amyrlin or use gateways as elayne is....<br /><br />Why is the cuendillar white , maybe it need both saidin and saidar together to make it black...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The best way to resist temptation is to give in to it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Author of &quot;A thousand ways to torture you boss... &quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 15:13:10
subject: <b>Gateways</b>
body:
Egwene and her rebels don't need to worry about removing or cutting the chains across the harbors.  They know how to Travel.  Granted it would be good for business and travel for the common people to have the harbors open but it isn't necessary.  Once the tower is reunited, everyone will know how to Travel and they can get supplies in thru gateways and the bridges.  The chains in the harbor will help when the Seachan attack too.


created: 2003-01-20 16:13:55
subject: <b>What to do with Cuendillar when Egwene rules...</b>
body:
What the hell is she going to do with the Cuendillar chain when Egwene is retakes the Tower?  If it is fused together and can't be destroyed, it is going to either take an act of the Creator or some serious geographical remodeling to reopen the Harbor.  I was just thinking about that when she did it.


created: 2003-01-20 17:23:27
subject: <b>tough decisions.</b>
body:
I'm sure Egwene realized that getting rid of the chain afterwards will be difficult - she's not stupid.  I think it's reasonable to assume that she considers it a necessary sacrifice in order to achieve her goal of cutting off supplies to Tar Valon.<br /><br />And when the thing isn't needed, they can just form up a good size circle w/ an angreal or ten, rip the whole deal out of the ground &amp; toss it aside.<br /><br />Even without doing that, it would only take a couple years for a new harbor to spring up on the other side of the chain.  Goods would just have to go downstream a little ways before they can get loaded onto boats.


created: 2003-01-20 19:04:35
subject: <b>Totally agree, but now on to the next question</b>
body:
What had happend in the harbour is quite clear and there can be litle doubt now comes the question wether or not it was a trap. <br />Was it just basic defensive precautions to have a aes sedai in the harbour and she knocked Egwene out and was lucky, supported by the fact that they where surprised at the worth of their catch) or was it a predesigned trap and where they refering to the fact that they where expecting Bode and not Egene, who tipped em off and what the hell would they have wanted bode for?<br /><br />sry for any spelling mistakes but it is late hier and I don't feel like double checking it


created: 2003-01-20 21:44:51
subject: <b>Removing the chain</b>
body:
I dont see why removing the chains when the tower is taken woul be so hard. A circle of 13 would easily manage: The chain is cuendillar, but not the mechanism that raises and lowers it. Cut the entire mechanism for raising the chain on each side of the harbor away with the power, pick the whole thing up, and throw it in the river (or on the banks).


created: 2003-01-21 07:22:05
subject: <b>GATEWAYS</b>
body:
TO the blademaster: imagine an espadon(a two-handed sword the length of a person, which weights a LOT, used by heavy armoured troops) with the weight of a regular &quot;small&quot; sword: it can deflect blows just fine and at the same time have the crushing ability, the length, and the power that it's lesser cousins lack, plus it can cut through anything, why deflect a sword when with one mighty sweeping arc you can cut the opponent's sword and the opponent in two. This seems a nice chance for a newbie to win against a blademaster: he blocks, you win. Besides how should you care about not deflecting a blow when you are covered by ultrathin lightweight cuendillar armour that is specially designed to cover your whole body :-) As for another way to make it, it's possibleto make it not out of metal foil but out of VERY thin chainmail mesh that can be placed on the person, made into cuendillar(thus fusing into a carapace) and voila- a nice armour. And also imagine cuendillar crossbow headpieces, bowstrings(thin chains), allpeircing thin bolts that can be hurled MUCH farther due to less friction and same weight, if they are barbed it's impossible to take them out without ripping the flesh into rags even usind the OP. Or imagine thin needle-like poisoned arrow points that pierce through ANYTHING(they might be used as all-piercing tranquilizer darts).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 07:36:28
subject: <b>RE</b>
body:
TO Burr: imagine that you stuck a cuendillar piece through an open Gate, there are no weaves inside so it's ok, then let the weaver dissipate, the Gate closes, one part of the thing was here, the other somewhere else, and you rip the connection between them... and the cuendillar thig is patly here partly THERE, or it may suspend the Gate open. As we've clearly seen(as with being severed) nothing is impossible, plus how did the DO manage to make the heartstone of the seals fail if it was TOTALLY indestructible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 13:06:42
subject: <b>pay attention to siri, and i guess this may have been its own theory!</b>
body:
wow, i'm surprised that no one has paid any attention to what siri had to say.  in essence, egwene was not trying to harm the white tower, but protect it against the seanchan.  i'm not saying that i totally agree, but when i first read the part, i thought she was trying to help out the white tower to defend itself from the seanchan, and was pretty upset about it (let elaida save her own ass!)  after rereading it, thought, i thought that she might be trying to block supplies out and turn their siege into something more real than what they had accomplished so far.  after all, she and gareth had pretty much given up on finding any boats to cover the harbor mouths.  however, just to cover bases, i think it imortant to contemplate on why egwene would turn her siege into something more real knowing that the seanchan are coming.  maybe she thought she could take over the tower in time?  maybe she really believed she'd be in the tower shielded and under guard? remember the possible future layed out before when she passes to the accepted rank way back in &quot;the great hunt?&quot;  it was something about her and her keeper(beldeine, i believe) being shielded and her breaking free of her captors and explaining she had never taken the three oaths before.  the way i see it, maybe she takes over the tower from the inside, gets rid of sheriam who turns out to be a darkfriend, takes on beldeine as her keeper to cement ties between both SAS and WTAS, and then the seanchan attack and shield and capture both her and beldeine.  what do u all think?<br /><br />and by the way, i'm tired of hearing complaints about the last three books.  if u don't like the series anymore, stop freaking buying the books!


created: 2003-01-22 14:41:07
subject: <b>I agree. . . .but wasn't it obvious?</b>
body:
If you had read all about what the chain was for and how cuendillar worked, it should have been obvious that was what Egwene did, what I want to know is why she was stupid enough to allow herself to be caught.  Didn't Moghedien ever teach her how to hide her weaves?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Angel of Cleira <br />Creator of her Own Universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> and Ruler of her own World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*Frustrated Fan*  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(I really am nice. . .really. . .)</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 15:01:07
subject: <b>physics . . . .</b>
body:
&quot;imagine an espadon(a two-handed sword the length of a person, which weights a LOT, used by heavy armoured troops) with the weight of a regular &quot;small&quot; sword: it can deflect blows just fine and at the same time have the crushing ability, the length, and the power that it's lesser cousins lack, plus it can cut through anything, why deflect a sword when with one mighty sweeping arc you can cut the opponent's sword and the opponent in two.&quot;<br /><br />This doesn't really make sense . . .   by reducing the mass of the sword, the only advantage you'll have over a &quot;normal&quot; size sword is reach &amp; speed.  Good benefits, but you can't expect it to do as much damage as it did at it's heavier weight.  Considering how rare proficiency at the cuendillar weave seems to be among the general Aes Sedai population, I doubt it'd be very worthwhile - even if the 3 oaths didn't get in the way.<br /><br />It seems obvious to me that a different weave was used to create the unbreakable blademaster weapons we've already seen - one that allows the weapon to keep it's original weight, balance, and appearance.  Perhaps this has something to do with the original material used, the type of weave, sex of the channeler, etc.  Who knows.


created: 2003-01-22 21:17:55
subject: <b>Reliance on Cuendillar...</b>
body:
I hope Egwene is not relying too heavily on the cuendillar chain to further her aims, be it to unite the White Tower or to protect it from the imminent Seanchan attack.<br /><br />It's obvious in CoT that saidar is weakening - the wards against rats; the Keeping not working to protect the food from weevils.  Even before that it's clear that the cuendillar seals are breaking.  I don't think we can assume anymore that cuendillar is unbreakable.  With luck though, it may just hold until the Tower is united.  At least it may rid Egwene of the problem of what to do with the chain once she takes control of the Tower &lt;g&gt;


created: 2003-01-25 10:31:02
subject: <b>cuendillar armor</b>
body:
This is just a small point to be made on the armor part of these posts.<br /><br />A)The main problem I see with the armor is that If I make a set of chain mail, then go and turn it to cuendillarthe parts fuse together (as shown by: &quot;Yesterday, [Bode] and Althyn Conly tried two items at once, just to see what would happen, and the things fused together in a solid lump.&quot; (p. 433)) so just like the chain was fused to one piece your armor would be if nothing else solid, immovable, good for protection, bad for movement. That would go for any other type of armor since all have moving picese excpt for maybe a beast plate, or something of that nature.<br /><br />B)the swords. the only problem I see here with what was being said is this... &quot;This doesn't really make sense . . . by reducing the mass of the sword, the only advantage you'll have over a &quot;normal&quot; size sword is reach &amp; speed. Good benefits, but you can't expect it to do as much damage as it did at it's heavier weight&quot;I can not disagree more, If one man holds a broad sword and chops at a piece of... anything, then that same man holds a katana, (the lightest sword I can think of at the time) and hits an exact copy of the afore mentioned object, which will do more damage? according to what you write there, the heavier sword because its heavier. That is just untrue.There are so many more things to consider, that would tell what kind of damage it would do. Also theres no way you could figure out how effective the sword will be till after its made. The balance could be off, the edge would not automatically keep, etc. etc.<br /><br />C) Ok I know I rambled on here but my last point really, now I do not know the history of cuendillar, but I would think that some one had to have had this idea before, So if it worked where is it. theres no way its been destroyed, its cuendillar. see what Im saying<br /><br />OK thats it, didnt mean to come off rude if I did, its actually the first time Ive posted on here so still new and all that.<br />~ Kalin <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Maddy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />Yeah, you know your jealous<br /><br />&quot;I don't believe in magic, but for you I will&quot;<br /><br />&quot;There is no doubt, no internal struggle. Only quiet, powerful confidence&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 10:06:20
subject: <b>Cuendillar Swords</b>
body:
&quot;This doesn't really make sense . . . by reducing the mass of the sword, the only advantage you'll have over a &quot;normal&quot; size sword is reach &amp; speed. Good benefits, but you can't expect it to do as much damage as it did at it's heavier weight. Considering how rare proficiency at the cuendillar weave seems to be among the general Aes Sedai population, I doubt it'd be very worthwhile - even if the 3 oaths didn't get in the way.&quot;<br /><br />Alright physics man, lets play.<br /><br />     Two swords are swung at eachother in the x direction. Each sword is swung with a force of 10 newtons over a time of 1 second before they collide. The non-cuendillar sword has a mass of 10 kilograms, while the cuendillar sword has a mass of 1 kilogram.<br />Formulas used:<br />F = ma<br />a = v/t<br />Non-cuendillar sword velocity<br />10 newtons = (10 kilograms)(x meters per second squared)<br />x = 1 meter per second squared<br />v = (1 meter per second squared)(1 second)<br />v = 1 meter per second<br /><br />Cuendillar sword velocity<br />10 newtons = (1 kilogram)(x meters per second squared)<br />x = 10 meters per second squared<br />v = (10 meters per second squared)(1 second)<br />v = 10 meters per second<br /><br />When the swords collide their momentum will be the factor determing whether the heavier sword has a tangible advantage.<br />Formulas<br />M = mv<br /><br />Momentum of non-cuendillar sword:<br />M = (10 kilograms)(1 meter per second)<br />M = 10 kilograms*meters/second<br /><br />Momentum of cuendillar sword:<br />M = (1 kilogram)(10 meters per second)<br />M = 10 kilograms*meters/second<br /><br />Notice that the momentums are equal, that means when the two swords collide thier momentums will cancel each other out, thus giving no advantage to the wielder of the heavy sword.


created: 2003-01-27 02:41:37
subject: <b>Redundant</b>
body:
Why create a theory which isn't even a theory, but hard fact? Isn't this plagiarism? Look out! RJ might sue.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-27 10:42:48
subject: <b>continued. . . .</b>
body:
I fully understand that an object traveling 10 times faster than another will have 10 times as much force.  But I guarantee you will *not* be able to swing a 1kg sword 10x faster than a 10kg sword.  There is a huge limiting factor in that the human arm only has so much distance to accelerate the sword.<br /><br />Using a raw numbers reasoning, you could make a 1 lb. blacksmith hammer which would work just as well as a 10 lb. hammer.  That's obviously not the case, you need the weight of the hammer to employ more force than you could with a light one.  An overly light hammer simply isn't going to do as much damage, even if you can swing it marginally faster.<br /><br />Granted, it's a game of trade-offs - make a 50 lb. hammer, and it won't be much use either, as the smith will tire too quickly from lifting it.  The goal is to make a weapon the proper weight that works with a given wielders strength.  With x amount of strength &amp; y range of movement to accelerate, there will be a certain weight where the most damage can be done &amp; still retain the control needed for combat.  And, of course, the amount of control needed depends on the type of weapon &amp; style of combat.  Tons of variables, many of them (like personal preference) simply aren't quantifiable.  Making hand to hand weapons is more closely related to an art form than a science.<br /><br />It's my contention that changing a weapon to cuendillar would throw this balance out of whack.  If it were to be done successfully, a completely new artform/trade would need to be developed in order to find the right proportion of iron, size, &amp; weight before the conversion to cuendillar.  And like I said earlier, the very few Aes Sedai who are any good at it have better things to occupy their time.<br /><br />However, I could see practical applications for armor . . .    Not chain mail, obviously, but breastplates, greaves, helmets, etc. could be all fashioned by pounding out the iron as thin as absolutely possible.  Fit it to the owner, hand it to the Aes Sedai, presto chango, &amp; you've got an ultra-lightweight indestructible piece.  Again, there aren't enough Aes Sedai to outfit an entire army with such protection, but I could see such armor becoming standard issue for Warders, notable captains, Dragons reborn, etc.


created: 2003-01-28 07:20:55
subject: <b>Biggest reason for using cuendillar armour (and who for)...</b>
body:
must be as protection against balefire.<br /><br />You'd have thought that the dreadlords, or at least the Forsaken, would have forced anyone strong enough in Earth and Fire (typically where men are strong !!!) to construct shields for them. Remember that everyone during the AOL became terrified of balefire after the Pattern started to come loose. The DO even asks one of his Chosen (I forget which) whether he'll unleash the balefire for him.<br /><br />One point here, noted above, is that what you need to perform this weave is strength in Fire and Earth, this is very rare in women, as commented on by a sul'dam when Egwene was held as a damane. There's no mention of required dexterity or complicated placement of weaves or nets, etc, which women are better at. So this asks the question why wasn't there a load more cuendillar when there were male AS hanging around the place in the AOL ?<br /><br />It also suggests that the AM will be able to make cuendillar by the armfull - I can certainly see those boys using it as armour and weaponry !!<br /><br />Anyway, it looks like this is a weave (or an application of a weave) that Egwene invented which wasn't known in the AOL.


created: 2003-01-28 09:56:18
subject: <b>Not sure how much use against balefile . . . .</b>
body:
If you remember back in Tanchico when Nynaeve was duking it out with Moghedien, the black sisters showed up with that balefile wand.  I don't have the exact quote, but I recall the large balefile weave slicing large chunks out of everything, but the artifacts made of cuendillar passing through the weave &amp; dropping to the floor.  To me, that suggests that cuendillar doesn't actually *repel* or *deflect* balefile, it merely survives it.<br /><br />So a shield or armor made from cuendillar may not be much use against balefile, as the weave will pass right through it &amp; take out it's owner.  Probably dependent on the strength of the weave, of course.<br /><br />Even if that isn't the case, if you've got a channeler willing &amp; able to use balefire on you, I don't think you're going to have much of a chance, no matter what kind of fancy armor you've got.  Even if you manage to avoid a shot or two of balefire, it's not going to take long for them to find another way to kill you.<br /><br />I also fully believe that the weave Egwene has &quot;discovered&quot; is the same one that was used in the AOL.  Especially considering Moghedien's descriptions were the ones that led her to figuring it out.  Yeah, you'd think there'd be more of the stuff lying around if it was that easy, but let's face it - it's been more than 3,000 years.<br /><br />And in the AOL, I find it doubtful that cuendillar was even that big a deal.  I mean, when you get right down to it, there's very little practical application for the stuff, and there were a LOT of male Aes Sedai who could make it.  That hardly makes for a very valuable commodity.  And when the War of Power rolled around, they came up with much better ways of killing eachother than fancy swords.<br /><br />Also, tetiana, you said: &quot;what I want to know is why she was stupid enough to allow herself to be caught. Didn't Moghedien ever teach her how to hide her weaves?&quot;<br /><br />Hide her weaves, yes.  Hide that she's embraced the source?  I'm not aware that anyone can do that.


created: 2003-01-30 18:50:47
subject: <b>Just, everything</b>
body:
Okay, first off, I'm saying, I agree with the theory. As I zipped through CoT, I was wondering what uses cuendillar could have.<br />What Egwene did with the chain could be either blocking the ships, or keeping out the Seanchan, or both, I don't know.<br />Secondly, to address the weapons and armour issue: It all depends on the kind of sword. And yes, there is that other weave that the blade is changed... Oh well, save that for later. But, really. If you have a katana vs. a nodachi, either could win. If you have a long sword vs. a short sword, depending on the soldiers skill, either could win. Katana and nodachi have a very interesting design, the slight curve of the blade concentrates the force of the strike, letting one swing take out a fully-armoured samurai. As for broadswords, their main advantage is in their weight; once you swing them, it's pretty hard to stop them. I think the most effective use of cuendillar in this sense would be to make only thin breastplates, or neck-covering helmets.<br />Like someone mentioned earlier, what if when the OP touches the cuendillar, the weave dissintegrates? That would take care of the OP threat on cuendillar-clad soldiers. And besides, the only Sisters who could really attack would be Black Ajah, unless the Sister was about to be struck down by a sword... <br />Anyways, think on it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lady Amalthea Pendragon<br /><br />&quot;Lan is Shrek! Lan is Shrek! Look! Rand describes him as an onion! He's Shrek!&quot; ... wtf, mate...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 06:36:34
subject: <b>a trait?</b>
body:
A thing occurred to me just now: why do we see glimpses of things made of cuendillar from the Age Of Legends ONLY in the form of cups, plates, figures, not a damn single piece of armour, it surely would've had a big success in the War of Power, maybe cuendillar has a kind of trait to it. What if you somehow not attack it with power but suck it out, maybe it'll crumble, dissipate, whatever? The guys in the AOL weren't dumb, they would've thought of cuendillar armour? What is the key to this mystery?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 18:02:32
subject: <b>About Everything</b>
body:
Well, the chain is no problem (as it was previosly stated). Channlers can just either:<br />1: Cut the rock that the chain is nailed to.<br />2: Just rip the whole thing off and toss it away.<br /><br />Heartstone weapons are an important innovation, but once Aes Sedai discover how to keep the original properties of the material, it  will become usable for war.<br />*Note - Callandor split Be-laal's balefire in two. <br /><br />I don't think that u can destroy heartstone by brute force. Instead, u must separate the power from the material.


created: 2003-02-06 21:54:47
subject: <b>Weight of Cuendillar vs. Iron.</b>
body:
First of all getting rid of the chain is gonna be hard but not impossible, tho you will have to destroy the winch towers, and probably parts of the piers and curtaiin walls. The cuendillar chain is heavy! It's over a 1/4 mile long. (from the map and scale given in the Big White Book. The chain is also very thick, and probably weighs over 50 tons (the iron one) too heavy to be lifted by a 13 AS circle, maybe even a 72 AS circle but then ya gotta get some Ashaman. The only way I see it being cleared is to either blast or dismantle one pier and let it sink or winch/lever it off the end of the pier and let it sink. <br />I personally don't think that cuendillar is much lighter if at all than iron. There's nothing in all of WoT that suggests that basic laws of physics don't apply there. Therefore conversation of matter has to apply. We don't hear of any kind of emissions (gaseous, liquid or otherwise) happening when iron is turned into cuendillar. It is my belief that the two masses are identical or close enuf. Cuendillar has been described as being ceramic like. There are very dense ceramics here that are not that much lighter than iron. Therefore everything said about the c' weapons has to assume identical (or nearly so) mass.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 16:41:42
subject: <b>Pretty obvious theory, but good discussion</b>
body:
Cuendillar would be fantastic for shields, armour would be a bit more of a problem - since you need mobility, you would need banded armour or something, so just like plate, the weak point is the joints which would probably be held together by leather straps. Don't get me wrong, it would be an improvement, but not much better than normal full plate. Plus you cannot covert already made armour to cuendillar, since it is steel not plain iron, so the expense (consider that most troops are lucky to have any armour due to the cost) would be prohibitive. Shields would be pretty easy, and I like the idea of having them super thin. Weapons are just out of the question, afterall, the main feature of the power-wought blade is identical to cuendillar - it doesn't blunten, rust or break.<br /><br />Why on earth did Egwene go instead of Bode? Surely she understands a novice is less important than the Arymilin Seat. And why not take a couple of Warders, Gareth Bryne, or a circle of linked sisters to protect her? Stupid.


created: 2003-02-10 12:24:31
subject: <b>Worthwhile theory</b>
body:
even if it was a bit obvious, It was not explicit in the book, although nearly so.  The reason I think it was a good theory is that it created lots of interesting discussion, which was fun to read.  As for removing the chain, now that they know the weave to create cuilendar, could they find a weave to unmake it?  I can't see why not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on. <br />-A thought by Susan Sto Helit<br />Hogfather<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-14 21:20:20
subject: <b>bah</b>
body:
First, this is like having a theory that Rand cleansed the Taint. It happened in the book. It's not a theory.<br />(And Callandor didn't split the balefire. Rand did.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-23 17:52:09
subject: <b>Thoughts...</b>
body:
I wish people would stop complaining about this string; if you think it's an obvious theory, good for you, and be on your way.  I'm glad it made sense to you right away, but please give the others of us, who work and think in a different way, the chance to work it out for ourselves, ok?<br /><br />A few thoughts of my own on what's been discussed:<br /><br />A. Are we really sure that saidar is really failing?  Yes, weevels have gotten into the food, yes the rats are avoiding beeing kept away.  But is it possible that someone is willfully opposing this weaves, ie someone in the &quot;official&quot; white tower isn't opposing the weaves to make life hard for those in the tower in exile?  I know one of the first things Moriane told Egween about the one power was that it couldn't be used up, but could there be a ripple or aftereffect in saidar because of it's role (or the amount used) in cleaning the taint off saidin?<br /><br />B. Cuendillar failing isn't necissarially a result of anything happening to saidar.  We don't even know if they were created with saidar, it could have been saidin: unless it is noted elsewhere, the white book only notes that &quot;Seven indestructable Cuendillar disks, made with the One Power and marked with the seal of the Aes Sedai, were prepared to function as 'focus points'...&quot;  We haven't seen any other cuendillar falling apart have we?  Cups or glasses or anything?  Only the seals, so it seems likely that a power is being focused upon these cuendillar that isn't being focused on the others.  Likely, that power is coming from the DO.


created: 2003-05-07 21:26:20
subject: <b>,..</b>
body:
As some have said, this'll ruin the harbour, what to do afterwards lalala.<br /><br />She can cut away the ground beneath the now-cuendillar mechanism or whatnot, and just move it. Aha! Fiendishly clever plan! Go Egwene!<br /><br />This won't work for Elaida because the time needed to fix it is probably time she doesn't have. By the time Elaida gets her act together, she'll be wondering why Lord Bryne's at the entrance to her study.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-16 13:01:38
subject: <b>The Other 50% of Fans Need the Theory</b>
body:
Egwene`s 1st goal in turning the chain into Cuendellar was to block the harbors for the siege to work. Later, after her Dream of the Seanchan`s attack, she realized the blocked harbors would add some protection against the attack, thereby killing 2 birds with one stone!<br /><br />princeofthedawn and Siri-you`re both right.<br /><br />I don`t think Egwene and Beldeine will be captured by the Seanchan.  In her Accepted test, part of her experiences were the normal Accepted Rings and the other parts caused by her Dream Ter1Angreal given to her a short time earlier by Verin<br /><br />Sheriam is not a DF but under the thumb of Delana and therefore Halima.  I believe Beldeine will be Eg`s Keeper, but only because Sheriam is becoming a nervous wreck! But first Beldeine will have to arrive in TV; she is currently with Rand in lower Tear.<br /><br />Getting rid of the chain can be done by:<br /><br />   1.  With a circle of 72 {which has to include Asha`man }and ripping it out<br /><br />   2.  Using the same type of circle to alter the course od the Erinin River- or  <br /><br />   3,  Dragonmount`s eruption will force the relocation of TarValon- when it might even be the Hall of the Servants again!!<br /><br />Silencer: Read the Theory &quot;Parting the Veil and The Last Hunt&quot; in this same section {CoT}.  It is an excellant Theory explaining these weird happenings in the World.<br /><br />All you woolheads out there- stop picking on Egwene.  She is very intelligent, a great Amyrlin and is going to be a key element in saving the World from the Dark One. {sigh} The Wheel has placed her in all these awful situations in order for her to get the job done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 18:12:56
subject: <b>What about Leane?</b>
body:
Eg's changing of the chain takes less than a heartbeat, yet she's caught. If the same kind of welcome is expecting Leane, what is the result? A chain half-turned to cuendillar? And how efficient would that be?<br /><br />What confuses me is that Eg knew Leane was hardly quick enough, yet sees herself as betrayed when she's attacked.<br /><br />So:<br />Was there a similar guard waiting for Leane? Why/Why not?<br />Did Leane have time to complete the change?<br />If not, what is the result?<br />What are the consequences?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 00:51:53
subject: <b>Thanx</b>
body:
iv only read a couple other comments, too many otherwise, but I have to say that I had made absolutly no connection between any of these events, and i just have to say, thanks a LOT  for clearing this up for me.  It seems though, that a lot of people r picking up on things that i have missed completly, which is why im rereading the series.<br /><br />thanks again<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Nynaeves fellow braid tugger<br />Sitter of the tie dye tower<br />Tulleel Sedai of the Teal ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, but the will of the wheel is really what I am willing it to weave,&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 17:58:08
subject: <b>Egwene is going to be stilled, right?</b>
body:
Can't remember if it was a dream or the test for accepted where she comes to save Rand who is about to be beheaded (or will it be Gawyn?) and she tells someone who is surprised to see her that she is no longer stilled.  Or I could be confusing this with another half-dozen things I half-remember.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 18:41:46
subject: <b>In addition</b>
body:
Nicola, was seen spying on the gateway site.  Therefore she probably learned gateways.<br /><br />This is how she got into Tar Valon in the first place.  That is a big detail to consider.<br /><br />And since Bode knew of the plan and was in Nicola's family, it seems very likely that Nicola learned of the plan from Egwene.<br /><br />The reason that the boaters thought that it wasn't who they expected, is because Egwene wasn't originally supposed to go.<br /><br />Egwene is not supposed to endanger herself as Amyrlin.  It is illegal for her without Hall support.<br /><br />However, she didn't want to endanger Bode, so she went in her place.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:14:29
subject: <b>To matrimony cauthon</b>
body:
But Nicola hasn't been in the WT so how could she open a gateway into there?<br />And it was a sitting of the Hall in her accepted testing that was convening on whether or not to punish her - not that she'd already been stilled - and she hadn't taken the three oaths was the big deal that made someone gasp<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brutus de Petrovichski<br /><br />If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made of meat???<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:30:14
subject: <b>u can travel to places u've never been too</b>
body:
Off the Top of my head is Avi from rand... and Asmdous *forsaken that taught rand* said something like To skim u need to know the place you are rtravelling to but to travel by gateway u just need to know where u are quite well... I don't know when nicola left but if it was a few months after they made camp outside Tar Valon she'd know the Area well enuff to travel into the tower..also since it's only a mile or 2 at most she wouldn't need to know the area that well..maybe 30 mins staying in one place or even less...


created: 2003-01-17 19:46:03
subject: <b>slight flaw in your Halima reasoning</b>
body:
Halima has the best reason to betray the plan, as long as the harbors remain open the seige will continue and the White Tower will remain divided up until TG.  Since halima had no way of knowing that Egwene would decide to go herself there was no loss to Halima's position.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 23:03:06
subject: <b>Egwene knew she would be betrayed</b>
body:
I think she knew she would be betrayed in some fashion or that with Bode out there she would be in serious danger.<br /><br />Egwene makes numerous mentions to the fact that there are some things that Amyrlins must do by themselves and things like there is no one who can do it better than her.<br /><br />There is also evidence to support Halima's betrayal. The second Aes Sedai that died (I think by Halima's hand) Was the one that was supposed to go and make the chain into Cuendillar. But she was killed which would result in Bode going. Halima somehow knew that Bode would get replaced by Egwene which would deliver her into the hands of the White Tower which is also riddled by Black sisters.


created: 2003-01-18 01:08:47
subject: <b>Halima having a different reason for killing Sisters...</b>
body:
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but some know that the Sisters were killed with Saidin. I don't know if Halima knows about the planned truce with the Black Tower, but Asha'man walking around the camp would spoil her plans.<br /><br />As for this theory, Nicola makes sense to me. She runs away 4 days prior, and the plan is betrayed. Too fishy for me to pass up.


created: 2003-01-18 08:45:51
subject: <b>Foreshadowing of Nicola's betrayal?</b>
body:
In Ch. 13 of ACoS, Elayne and Nynaeve were worried that Nicola and Areina would do something to Egwene. Now that Nicola is highly suspected of betraying Egwene to the White Tower, what about Areina?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 12:38:35
subject: <b>Good theory... just maybe not the right goal...</b>
body:
You formulated a very good theory and supported it well.  But you act like the aim was for cuendillar.... maybe whomever it was that planned the dastardly deed wanted someone who could Travel so they could give that to the White Tower...


created: 2003-01-18 12:58:59
subject: <b>Nicola is probably dead...</b>
body:
Nicola and Ariana both like to spy on people and then to black mail them. Who in the Rebel camp has a bigger secret than Halima. Now if they found out even a little about what Halima really was, by seeing the effects of her channeling or overhearing her talking to Delana, and tried to use that info or were discovered Halima would kill them in a heartbeat. I think that this is much more likely than them going to the Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 12:26:25
subject: <b>Another Idea (COT)</b>
body:
There's something awfully strange about Egwene's betrayal (?) and capture. She is struck using the one power by an Aes Sedai, surrounded by multiple women who recognize her (presumably other Aes Sedai), yet rather than shielding her, they force tea down her throat. They were standing among the guards on the wall, and there are soldiers crowding around her with lanterns, so they certainly were not acting secretly. The presence of those soldiers, and their willingness to channel openly in the White Tower, makes it highly unlikely that they are Black Ajah.<br /><br />So who are they?<br /><br />Here's a (modest) proposal. There is clearly a coalition of Aes Sedai among the WT and the Rebels, who acted in a concerted fashion to install their own as Sitters before they otherwise might have served. Given that they did this in both places, it stands to reason that they are trying to affect a reconciliation, and reunite the WT. Egwene stands as Elaida's most implacable foe, and the largest obstacle to reconciliation. If she succeeds in blocking the harbor, the rebels will have hope of defeating the WT, and the negotiations are unlikely to bear fruit. So, those sitters who are with the rebels notify their allies inside the WT, to disrupt the plan. They think that they will thwart the attempt to turn the chain to Cuendillar, and perhaps capture Leane. When they get Egwene herself, they have indeed got &quot;Better than they bargained for.&quot; They feed her the tea because they are not acting in an official capacity, and so cannot afford to have the others sense Aes Sedai linking to hold her shield.<br /><br />So who is behind this mysterious conspiracy? Well, we know that the same Sitters who were selected in such an unusual fashion have forced both Elaida and Egwene to send negotiators. We also know that they were those who supported the idea of an alliance with the Asha'man (an idea not broached with Elaida, for obvious reasons). These moves would present a unified front of channelers, a Tower united as it had not been since the Breaking. This makes it improbable that the Black Ajah or the Forsaken are at work here. Is it possible that this is simply an alliance of Aes Sedai who are thinking clearly? Possible, but not likely. Jordan subscribes to the so-called 'Great Man' school of history, in which there is almost always a single person or small group of people manipulating events. <br /><br />I think the Maestro is preparing a whopper of a surprise for us in Book 11. We're going to find out that someone has been working to reunite the Aes Sedai, someone that we know, but don't suspect...


created: 2003-01-20 00:58:02
subject: <b>One other person</b>
body:
Delana could have betrayed her, but there is the fact that she's under Haliman'gar's control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 00:59:08
subject: <b>One other person</b>
body:
Delana could have betrayed her, but there is the fact that she's under Haliman'gar's control. Also, I think Sheriam is being tortured by Halima, or Delana, because that gives them even more control over Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 04:41:39
subject: <b>are there any other non-bound channellers?</b>
body:
why yes there are!<br /><br />Faolain disappeared as well, and she isn't bound either.<br /><br />I think that the betrayers were Faolain and/or Theodrin.<br /><br />And that they are working for Elaida.


created: 2003-01-20 05:47:06
subject: <b>another thought..</b>
body:
I haven't finished COT yet (yes I shouldn't have read that but I was just so curious!) but immediatly when reading that Egwene has been betrayed I recall her third arch!<br /><br />Remember in that Arch Eg was Amyrlin and Rand was about to be gentled and killed. She was taken prisoner by Elaida and handed over to THIRTEEN Black sisters who were waiting for THIRTEEN Myrdraal - trying to turn her. <br />Maybe the sisters in COT bargained for a strong channeler to turn to the Shadow but instead got the Amyrlin: what better than having a Black Amyrlin rather than a Black Keeper?<br /><br /> Since Eg was shielded in the Arch she couldn't free herself with the OP but instead knocked the Blacks down with her bare hands and escaped. Here she is  given a dose of forkroot.. hmmm.. sounds pretty familiar..<br /><br />When she came back to her rooms, her Keeper (to be), Beldeine confessed that she had been blackmailed by Blacks who had stilled her.<br />Who is obviously controlled by someone probably DF? Yes, Sheriam! Her Keeper!<br /><br />This makes Sheriam more of a suspect that Romanda/etc.<br /><br />Anyway, another thing I had to think about was, that Eg imprisoned just SHOUTS for the fulfilling of her dream:<br />her head streched for the axe and somewhere someone is running to save her - and: Gawyn slowly closing a door on her and when it is shout she will die.<br /><br />I think soon Gawyn will step in to rescue Eg - after all she has also seen that she WILL make him her Warder!<br />I suppose that in Book 11 we finally have the big reunion/rescue/Warder bonding between Gawyun and Egwene!!<br />


created: 2003-01-20 08:11:16
subject: <b>Reconsider Lelaine</b>
body:
I think Lelaine needs more investigation. Just before Egwene goes on her hare brained expedition, she has a meeting with Lelaine and Maigan. After a comment from Lelaine about the white tower rectifying mistakes, Egwene thinks that she had not quite said that Egwene as Amyrlin was a mistake that might have to be rectified, but she had come close. <br />The whole Romanda/Lelaine thing has always seemed a little funny to me and I think these two characters are capable of just about anything. Just an observation.


created: 2003-01-20 09:58:04
subject: <b>don't be so quick to dismiss forsaken</b>
body:
I like the above idea that this is part of the sitter conspiracy, but that is just not what I got out of it.<br /><br />I think that this is a plot by the BA, headed by Moridin.  The way in which Egwene was captured (IMHO) was using the power as a weapon - a trademark of BA.  Creative thinking may be a way around this, but Eg was knocked unconsious by the power - this says to me that it was used as a weapon.  Halima's involvement in the removal of other cuendillar maker(s?) seams to be proof of her/his involvement.  The BA in TV lends me to believe that Mesaana is involved.  So I think that this was a Moridin plan, and we saw the beginnings of it when SH reigned in Mesaana.  Remember that Halima is firmly under Moridin's control.<br /><br />Nicola is very suspicious, and really unexplained by this theory. Maybe she did go to the tower.  Or she is involved in the shadow some way - a darkfriend, or deamed important/strong enough for conversion by BA and mydraal.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 15:41:43
subject: <b>Tar Valon lock up !</b>
body:
How will they get rid of the cuendillar chain after the White Tower is united ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 16:07:13
subject: <b>How can it be Nicola when...</b>
body:
How could it be Nicola when those that captured Egwene got &quot;more than they bargained for.&quot;  The Aes Sedai that captured Egwene obviously expected to get Bodewhin or someone else, and if that is what the Aes Sedai expected, then that is what Nicola suspected, because Egwene never told anyone she was going to do it herself until the very end.  What would Nicola want with Bodewhin or any other Aes Sedai besides Egwene?  Nothing, and that is why it can't be her.


created: 2003-01-21 09:56:59
subject: <b>a long note...</b>
body:
I think this whole sitcheation could have been brought about by a combination of what you are all describing. Nicola has fled, along with some other ladies. She certainly loves blackmailing people, and wouldn't hesitate to spill all she knows to WT Aes Sedai in hopes of gaining favor. <br /><br />IT WAS NOT HALIMA. Don't forget that Haliman'gar and Mesaana are opposing forsaken, not seeking the same goals but rather the same prize. They both want Egwene.<br /><br />So Nicola flees to the WT. We know she has been spying on the traveling area, and can reasonably assume she has figured it out. The &quot;science&quot; behind traveling tells us that she can jump to anywhere in the world she wishes to, just by being familiar with the slushy snow where she stands.<br /><br />Once in the WT, or even just TV, she meets a sister or two and begins to tell all, or tells them she has some big secrets. WHAT IF these AS she meets are BA? Or she's taken to the Hall (which has some BA sisters)? It stands to reason that somehow or another the BA has learned what Nicola knows, and has placed some of their own, with Elaida's or the Hall's blessing, on the walls to watch that very night. And boom, instead of finding a novice or sister that can turn things into Cuendillar, they catch the great Egwene herself. <br /><br />So now the BA/WT has Egwene, and it's not Nicola's intentional fault that the BA has her, it's her naivete and chance. <br /><br />And we know that both the WT and the BA must be involved, because Egwene has two related visions. The challenge remains of how to get these two seemingly disparate visions in synch. In one, she's to be tried for treason by the WT and stilled (if I remember it correctly). In the other, she's to be turned by the BA and 13 myrddraal. &quot;sorry mother, they made me do it.&quot;<br /><br />Will both events take place? Will they take place close to one another? Maybe in the confusion following a Seanchan attack, the BA will grab her and try to convert her. Wait, that sounds good. Write that down.<br /><br />Also, we KNOW that both the Seanchan and Gawyn will be involved in her rescue. We're all glad that Gawyn and she can finally shag and get it over with. But, don't discount the Seanchan saving her life, reflected in her Dreams in CoT, and also in that other book where the Golden Hawk reached out to touch TV (or was it touching her in TV - I can't remember). And you'll recall that she saw the to'raken.<br /><br />The point is Nicola betrayed her, the BA will take this opportunity to attempt converting Egwene, the WT will take this opportunity to make her an example and break the seige, Gawyn will shag her, and the Seanchan will attack, uniting the Tower in cause and inadvertantly saving Egwene's life.<br /><br />It all fits so nicely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 10:32:17
subject: <b>A point to humperole</b>
body:
You say:<br /><br />&quot;IT WAS NOT HALIMA. Don't forget that Haliman'gar and Mesaana are opposing forsaken, not seeking the same goals but rather the same prize. They both want Egwene.&quot;<br /><br />This is no longer true.  Halima has been under Moridin and SH's control since reincarnation.  And now, Mesaana is also under their control, as we saw in when SH punishes and does other unspeakable things to her.  After this, he likely gave commands as to what she is to do.  IMHO this is the resulting plot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 11:09:09
subject: <b>You've got a point, but...</b>
body:
Even if their motivations are not strictly their own, the two Chosen are not likely working together. I can't imagine that Moridin would have told either to play nice and work together. Plus, the DO is pissed at Mesaana, so I think that he wouldn't have had Halima intentionally deliver Egwene/Bode/Leane into the hands of the BA. Why trust her with this right after you beat her down? I think it was merely fortuitous for the BA crew that a runaway novice with tons of info fell into the lap of the bad guys in TV. They turned it into an opportunity and *boom*, they've caught a bigger fish than expected. I think Halima's role was to kill those who could do cuendillar to help prolong the siege and the chaos. Keeping the Tower apart helps the bad guys more than anyone (except the Seanchan). And Halima had no need to kill the negotiators, since negotiations were useless.<br /><br />Plus, Nicola didn't know that those two sisters had been killed when she left. So, the crew that captures Egwene is not expecting anyone besides Bode/Leane/the other 2. Halima's job is to kill the strongest (if not all), and Nicola trumps it (inadvertantly) by announcing their abilities/research. The crew in the WT (or the BA, with their inside knowledge) figure out what's being planned and lay in wait.<br /><br />Anyway, my point was that Halima was not involved in the betrayal, although her actions force events - the two weakest in the skill (not counting those who can't do it, period)are forced to go, meaning they'll take the longest time to do it, and be most likely caught<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 11:35:55
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
<br />the forsaken just don't know that they are working together.  The Moridin/SH combo is issuing orders to both Halima and Mesaana, without knowing about the other's orders.  With Mesaana's reclusiveness, she may not even know that Halima is with the rebels (though I doubt this).  <br /><br />Basically, in situations like this, there is no such thing as a coincidence, so I believe that Halima is intimately involved in the plot (though s(he) may not know much about details and its ultimate goals.  <br /><br />Moridin and SH seem to be basically controling the forsaken in a somewhat united (though they may not realize this) front.  Of course - the forsaken don't like this and always have their own agenda as well.<br /><br />I think I got a little off topic, but basically, I think that Halima is involved somehow (but just how deeply?) and I haven't seen anything that convinces me otherwise<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 14:45:49
subject: <b>Maybe, maybe not</b>
body:
I agree fully that Nicola is the most likely suspect, but Faolain has gone missing as well.  I don't thing that she would do such a thing, but she doesn't have a very good reputation.  Maybe she went after Nicola.


created: 2003-01-21 19:57:05
subject: <b>why not the sitters?</b>
body:
While Nicola is a possibility, there seems to be a lot of &quot;if this happened&quot; to get her there:  if she left the rebels and went to the white tower, if she met someone (maybe black ajah) and was forced/agreed to betray them, if she really knew what was being planned, etc.  That she may have foretold an imprisoned Amyrlin still shouldn't give her the details necessary to know what's being done, most Foretellings, like all the prophecies, are quite general/vague.  In addition she disappeared 3 or 4 days BEFORE this occurred and the way Egwene thought about the mission, it was much more new and secret than that.  In addition, Egwene's nightmare about Nicola testifying against her is slightly unlikely to be a true dream -- she seems to be able to distinguish the two types pretty clearly when she's dreaming.<br /><br />Halima is quite suspicious especially considering the recent deaths of the two Aes Sedai.  On the other hand, she is quite close to Egwene and shouldn't want to lose that. In addition to the desire that the tower being split is probably to the BA's (and the Forsaken's) advantage and Egwene being out of the picture for the rebels may make it more likely to reunite the tower.  Also, Egwene notes when she regains conciousness two interesting things about the people around her:  <br /><br />1. she hear's multiple women talking excitedly<br />2. there are soldiers crowded around her<br /><br />If it's the Black Ajah and Darkfriends this seems to be a rather large number of them together at once which VERY rarely happens.<br /><br />So what makes me think it's the sitters?  A few things:<br /><br />1.  Romanda/Lelaine and the sisters negotiating with the WT have something to gain (quicker reunification) and had communications with the AS in the WT prior to the incident.  <br />2.  The fact that &quot;soldiers&quot; are standing around Egwene and not &quot;Warders&quot; makes it seem more a WT thing than a rogue AS (Black Ajah) thing.<br />3.  Finally, and most important, the sister says &quot;We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.&quot;  There's only one group of people that we KNOW were bargaining.<br /><br />Clearly, this still creates a problem with the three oaths and the attack on Egwene.  Which is a big problem that I can't explain away other than to say there are ways of holding up the letter of the oath whilst forsaking the spirit of them.  <br /><br />


created: 2003-01-22 04:34:35
subject: <b>I</b>
body:
don't think Egwene will be stilled! at least I don't WANT her to be stilled! She too important to the story and to damn good an Amyrlin to be wasted away like that! Even IF she gets proper Healing by Damer (since only men can restore a woman's complte strength and vice versa) she will lose her position as Amyrlin by teh very fact of being stilled (no non-channeler can be Amyrlin however shorty being servered form teh source might last)<br />Somebody just HAS to step in a rescue her - or she rescues herself like in her Arches. Oh, had she only been able to stay in that Arch longer! Damnit.. it wasgiving away pretty much of her future (now present) - i'd give something to know Elayne arches too-<br /><br />If a woman needs a hero she needs him now, not tomorrow!<br />-- Egwene<br /><br />Blood and ashes, any hero out there quickly?!


created: 2003-01-22 09:25:05
subject: <b>Sheriam involved?</b>
body:
earlier we see Sheriam telling Egwene about how her friend from the Two Rivers is going to be punished for keeping nicola's disappearance a secret.<br /><br />This seemed strange to Egewene as she did not really see the point of Sheriam's report.<br /><br />What if Sheriam is a &quot;feret&quot; of the WT, and that by capturing one of Egewene's friends, Bode, could give them a lever over Egewene.<br /><br />The same could apply to BA if Sheriam is BA.


created: 2003-01-22 15:33:08
subject: <b>who's betraying</b>
body:
well i have to agree that nicola is probably the betrayer, <br />it was a great detective job by the way, yet the question that should come out  of this is who is she conspiring with ?<br /><br />with elaida ? i dont think so, she is too pompous to listen <br />to wilders/novices however she will see nicola.<br /><br />a lesser fraction of the tower ? who would dare oppose<br />elaida, and why so ? though i m open to suggestions...<br /><br /><br />last but not least - the black ajah (remember what flew in the skies - the draghkar/bat ). they are the most likely because<br />they attacked the boat which no  3 outh's bound aes sedai <br />cound do, but we most not forget egwene didn't feel saidar<br />strike her, she felt someone embracing saidar - it could be <br />a male forsaken, or Halima if it matters to u.<br />maybe a darkfriend asha'man just to cover all of the options <br />thogh that is unlikly. my money is on halima userping <br />the opperation.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-01-23 06:01:24
subject: <b>Why it (probably) wasn't Halima</b>
body:
I very much agree that Halima has every motivation to betray Egwene; Egwene had approved negotiations with the TAS, and while that was making little progress, few things could have split them apart more than a disappeared Amyrlin.<br /><br />However, I just don't think it was her.  Why?  For the following reasons:<br /><br />1) The kidnappers didn't know it was Egwene, so it probably wasn't originally a plot against Egwene.  If it wasn't a plot against Egwene, it wasn't Halima, because she (probably) wouldn't be bothered with a prize as unimportant as Bode.  You can say, maybe Bode being a friend of Egwene's and a girl w/ a lot of potential would call for Halima, but I disagree.<br /><br />2) Halima would have known about Egwene's upcoming change of plans.  She has been controlling the girl for long enough that I would be absolutely shocked if Egwene had any important secrets from her. And if she knew, the kidnappers would most likely have known.<br /><br />On the other hand:<br /><br />1)  It would have been EXCRUCIATINGLY easy to set up Egwene like this: just compel her to go on the mission and let someone know.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel, and with her motivation, it's quite possible that she would have been ordered to do it.<br /><br />2)  The fact that the kidnappers didn't expect Egwene doesn't necesarily clear Halima: perhaps she set up the kidnapping of Bode, and then the opportunity to switch in Egwene occurred to her, or maybe she decided that it would be fairly stupid to trust the kidnappers with that kind of knowledge.  After all, everyone knows that there are spies everywhere, and kidnapping the Amyrlin would make someone actively try and stop it, whereas Bode would not be important enough to risk exposure.  Plus, RJ has been known to slip in red herrings on occassion<br /><br />In conclusion, it probably wasn't Halima, but I wouldn't totally discount the idea just yet.<br /><br />One other thing:  Nicola IS NOT DEAD!!!!  Min said she would be trouble, and a little blackmail hardly qualifies as something that would show up in Min's viewings.  She's gonna do something much worse, and you can quote me on that.  When Min says that someone's trouble, the proper response is to slit their throats and ask questions later.  If Nicola doesn't do something seriously wrong before she croaks, then she must have done something that we haven't been told about yet, and I don't think that she has.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">StanfordMatt0<br /><br />&quot;Don't blame me; I voted for Kodos&quot;<br /><br />We're # 1!  And I was there! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=240380024</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 16:04:15
subject: <b>nicola was the betrayor</b>
body:
why was nicola the betrayor?<br />I think everyone is forgetting about Elaida's meeting with alviarin. In that meeting Elaida knows that the Salidar Aes Sedai have learned how to travel.<br />How would she know this?<br />Elaida is not Black Ajah. Information from Halima or Sheriam, clearly would not have been fed to Elaida. It wasn't Mesaana either, because she was preparing herself to kill Alviarin before Shaidar Haran stepped in. So. Nicola is the only real candidate.<br />At the same time, the fact that the Tower Aes Sedai haven't been traveling yet also makes the case for Nicola who hasn't learned the weave yet. She probably escaped in company of one of the raiding parties from the Tower.


created: 2003-01-24 00:42:03
subject: <b>RE: Egwene's Situation (COT)</b>
body:
I agree, mostly.  Though I have one major conflict.  I don't think Nicola is the betrayer.  She doesn't have quite the access to the 'secrets' that Egwene is developing and harboring.  She's just a lowly novice.  Aside from that, even if she went to the Tower AS, it's likely she'd be put through the wringer before allowed near to anyone to convey any information.  From what I can gather, her disappearance occurs just a few days before Egwene's Aes Sedai-napping, not enough time to get to Tar Valon and report on Egwene to those that would put it to use.  She just doesn't have the motive, at least not enough of one for me.  So who is the likely suspect?<br /><br />For me, it's Black Ajah, and the informant is Halima.  She has access to the information/secrets of Egwene, and the power to make something happen.  Wouldn't Mesaana and Halima love to get in good with Moridin and the DO by proffering up Rand's friend/ex girlfriend, and a powerful Aes Sedai to boot?  The perfect bait to ambush Rand!  Also, Halima's massages were losing their efficiency, given that Egwene starting drinking that horrid tea that seemed to counteract what Halima was doing.  And the envisionment of &quot;An Amyrlin imprisioned&quot; is rather open to intepretation - it could mean Elaida in chains, or Egwene in the hands of the Tower AS or BA.  I tend to believe it's either Elaida's overthrowing, or Egwene in BA hands.  <br /><br />Remember, when Egwene made the plan to turn the chain into cuendillar (sp?), she was sending Bode to do it.  That day, AFTER Nicola was long gone, she decided to do it herself.  Halima could easily get ahold of Mesaana that day, and Mesaana could send her BA cronies to nab her.  <br /><br />When I think about timing and motive for Egwene's Aes Sedai-napping, I think of BA.


created: 2003-01-27 01:04:02
subject: <b>Obviously minty</b>
body:
I can't believe I am the only one who thought it was Maigan - in fact I thought it was obvious.<br /><br />Maigan gives the same mint honey tea right after capturing Egwene as right before Egwene left - a detail that was stressed far too much to be unimportant.  <br /><br />Maigan blames Siuan for the tower split, which is who she thought she captured.  Shouldn't someone who blames Siuan be on Elidia's side? - oh wait, she is!  <br /><br />Reread that chapter assuming everything I say is true, and tell me it isn't RJ's style exactly.


created: 2003-01-30 03:52:23
subject: <b>just one more thing</b>
body:
about Nicola.<br />Didn't the paper from the MoN, apart from Nicola's name and date of running away, bear a witness?<br />I'm sure whether I quite got that but somewhere on this page it said something about the city of Ilian. Correct me if I'm mistaken.. but couldn't that mean that bl**** Nicola is in Illian and will cause trouble there?


created: 2003-01-30 18:13:46
subject: <b>Who betrayed Egwene?</b>
body:
Personally, I don't think it was Nicola who betrayed Egwene. I think it might have been Yukiri and the other sisters who found the Little Tower's moles. I think it might be them, because they could. They all took new oaths. It's only speculation, but it's possible...<br />My other theory would be some Black Ajah. They'd surely be looking for something to do. And they do have a grudge against Egwene and company for the whole Liandrin incident. Again, speculation.<br />Any other ideas?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lady Amalthea Pendragon<br /><br />&quot;Lan is Shrek! Lan is Shrek! Look! Rand describes him as an onion! He's Shrek!&quot; ... wtf, mate...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 13:46:23
subject: <b>The Betrayer</b>
body:
Fist off, let me stress that Nicole couldn't have known about the plan from Bode, beceause she had been gone 3 or 4 days before Bode was brought into the plan.<br /><br />I don't know why Halima would give up Egwene, but it's possible she was able to extract information before she killed the sister who was suppose to go.<br /><br />Please explain to me why Egwene wanted to turn the cahian to cuendiar. Would that keep ships from being able to enter the harbor, thereby shutting off the harbor, a requirement for a proper seige on Tar Valon?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-02 14:55:34
subject: <b>The Ttitle</b>
body:
<br />Look to the title of Chapter 30: What the Oath Rod Can Do.  It's referring to more than just Egwene's conversation with Romanda.  The Oath Rod is responsible for allowing there to *be* a Black Ajah... he's hinting at something.


created: 2003-02-03 21:13:59
subject: <b>A little extra meat in the stew</b>
body:
We know Egwene was trying to cuendillar the chain on one harbour, and it seems likely Leane was doing the same ont he other harbour (Bode was 3rd best at transforming behind Leane and Egwene, so since Leane wasn't at this gate, it makes sense she was doing the other).  When Egwene says she was betrayed, it seems reasonably to assume that she not only means herself but her plan as well.  If so, then doesn't it make sense to assume that there was someone waiting for Leane at the other harbour?  So my postulation is: Is Leane captured as well?  And if so, what does this mean for Egwene's future?  Remember, RJ mentions often in CoT that Leane had the most extensive network of eyes and ears in TV.  Maybe she and Eg will be held captive, one of Leane's spies will learn of it and be used as messengers for a cry for help.  Unless Elaida is involved and doesn't just flat out proclaim she has captured the rebel leader (shades of Darth vader and Princess Leia), a proclamation that Gawyn hears and comes to rescue his beloved Egwene (Like Luke and Han Solo in the death Star.... RJ better watch out if this happens, Lucas will come for everything he owns).<br /><br />Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 02:22:35
subject: <b>The Attack Not Necessarily Against the Three Oaths</b>
body:
The attack on Egwene using the One Power is not necessarily in violation of the three oaths. Here's why:<br /><br />1. The power hit the BOAT and sunk it. It was hitting the cold water that stunned Egwene. But the sister/s that used the power to sink the boat knew it would not kill the boat's occupant, because a large crowd of people was waiting to grab the &quot;traitor&quot; out of the water. Remember when Egwene watches the boats go by with Bryne, and thinks to herself that it is the knowledge of the people that would definitely die if she did it that would offend the three oaths. They knew using the power would not kill her. <br /><br />2. Egwene was threatening the safety of Tar Valon by blocking the harbor. This would give any sister that lives there a need to stop this.<br /><br />Also:<br />I believe that the group of sisters that captures Egwene is just a normal group, probably of mixed ajahs. If there is a black sister present, then it is incidental...that sister is masquerading as a regular sister. Egwene told the Hall about her plan. Any one of those sisters in the Hall could have betrayed the plan. The negotiators could have betrayed the plan, thinking that it was the right thing to do. After all, once the harbor is blocked, any chance at reconciliation without violence is gone.<br /><br />I don't believe Nicola betrayed the Cuillandar plan because the timing is not right. But I do think she may have gone to the White Tower by traveling. And Nicola knows a lot of things that could get Egwene executed.<br /><br />It is very possible that the Black Ajah will ambush Egwene now that she is so vulnerable.<br /><br />I think that the Seanchan will rescue Egwene, whether it is intentional or inadvertant. Intentional: Rand send his new allies to rescue Egwene. Inadvertant: The Seanchan attack, cause chaos, that allows Egwene to escape.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 19:57:33
subject: <b>Egwene swears to Elaidia</b>
body:
What The Oath Rod Can Do - I thought this was a hint that Elaida is going to get Egwene to swear personal feality to her, just like she wanted to.<br /><br />How would Nicola get into the Tower? Even if she learnt Travelling just by watching (quite good for a novice, but possible), she hasn't been there before. Men need to know where they are, women need to now where they are going to travel (except Avi's weave to Seachan, which we know is different to a normal gateway). And Faolin disappearing is just as sus.


created: 2003-03-12 16:46:57
subject: <b>Who says she was betrayed?</b>
body:
Egwene thinks she was betrayed, but she has been known to be wrong and make incorrect assumptions on no information whatsoever (Rand must be using Compulsion on the sisters in Cairhien and Tear, for one example).  The third time she sees some action, and boom, she gets captured.  Again.  What is it, five times now, six if you count her Accepted test (Whitecloaks, Seanchan, Cairhien bandits, Black Ajah and now in Tar Valon)?  Without Egwene dragging them down, Nynaeve and Elayne got captured once, Perrin never, Mat never, and Rand &amp; Min once.  Not to mention none of them got captured because they decided on a whim that it was their duty to abandon a position of responsibility and trot off to foul up a plan already set up without letting anyone know.  Betrayal might merely be an excuse in her head to cover her own incompetance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-13 20:51:46
subject: <b>Oh lay off Egwene already</b>
body:
Sure she's done some stupid stuff, but maybe she's gonna learn a lesson in her captivity that will make her stronger.


created: 2003-03-13 20:54:02
subject: <b>Yeah right!</b>
body:
Does any one else think that Sharina would make a better Amyrlin than Egwene?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 02:01:26
subject: <b>A doubt about Nicola</b>
body:
Nicola and Areina were accused by Egwene of trying to blackmail her. If I'm not mistaken, at that point both of them swore fealty to Egwene. Won't this be in contradiction to a betrayal? Unless of course Nicola actually feels this is in Egwene's best interests, by virtue of her Foretelling or otherwise, but that seems a little unlikely. Another unlikely possibility, that Nicola feels her swearing is void, since she was under duress, but it seems quite clear that she did it out of her own volition.<br />Conclusion: I don't think Egwene was betrayed by Nicola, because if I remember correctly, the latter swore fealty to the former.


created: 2003-04-25 16:49:37
subject: <b>do you remember?</b>
body:
do you remember egwene's test for accepted? in the arches she was amrylin and sheriam was her keeper. right. she had never sworn the three oaths. right she was elaida's prisoner right? see any paralells here? the only thing that hasn't come to pass is sheriams stilling, or has it? that would explain her shady behavior most definitely. my best guess is this halima/ aran'gar stilled her and she's refusing to re-connect her to the source unless she spys for her. why can't the salidar aes sedai do it you might ask? sheriam can't reveal it with out revealing that she has been spying. ding ding! this ties up all the loose ends nicely i think thanks!


created: 2003-05-11 16:53:47
subject: <b>Beldeine was her keeper</b>
body:
Also the inability to channel would be remarked on, especially as in a situation where precedence is an issue.  In any confrontation, Aes Sedai are very conscious of each other's strength, simply as a reflex.  They would not overlook the fact that Sheriam was stilled, and could not be sensed with the Power.  In that same test, Egwene believed Elaida was Black, and she isn't, so it may have been a reflection of her suspicions, and her strongest fear at the moment-ending up a Black Ajah prisoner, especially as Sheriam had just confirmed the circle of thirteen Myrdraal trick.  Egwene to that point had never consciously sensed the ability to channel in a woman, so Beldeine's passing undetected might simply mean that Egwene believed it possible.  Don't forget, too, she had the ageless look without ever holding the Oath Rod.  She saw it on her own face, and if it was a disguise, even with inverted weaves, she would have seen the flows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 21:58:15
subject: <b>Leane</b>
body:
Leane was slower than Eg. Did she have time to finish the transformation? Was she captured as well? Was someone waiting for her as well? What are the consequences of a chain half-transformed? What are the consequences of the capture(s)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-01 20:33:28
subject: <b>Egwene is where the Wheel wants her</b>
body:
Egwene has to be in the WT in order to fulfill the Wheel`s purpose. Now that the Harbors are blocked, there is far less liklihood that there will be warfare between the two factions.  The siege can be most effective in a short time.<br /><br />With SAS looking for an alliance with the BT and TV {thru the efforts of Tarna Feir, Keeper of the Flame} a united Tower will be ready for TG.<br /><br />I believe Egwene will be made Amyrlin. Elaida cast out and the new Hall will be composed of a balance of the old {in age} Sitters and those younger. <br /><br />To get to the Theory- I think an earlier thread has it right.  It was those working for canciliation who betrayed Egwene.  Nicola could not know about Cuendillar being usefor the chains.  Egwene had just that morning announced it to the Hall. Nicola may well have been killed by Halima for attempted blackmail.<br /><br />As for Faolain, who has disappeared- she could well have travelled to TV earlier and divulged secrets--but wait--remember Min`s viewing about Faolain in Salidar?  Min made the comment that with her being so hateful. you would think she would have a bleak future, or words to that effect.  Faolain is a good person!<br /><br />To Matrimony Cauthon:  The last line in your posting is most offensive.  May the Light prevent you ever being a part of the Special Olympics or having to be around the participants.  That is comparable to kicking over someone` wheelchair.  Has noone called you down about this before?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-14 13:06:59
subject: <b>Thanks, Matrimony Cauthon</b>
body:
--for the deletion.  I`ll try to help you find your pants, but running around without does not offend me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-09 21:51:50
subject: <b>if i remember correctly...</b>
body:
it is said towards the end of CoT, after Nicola escapes, that the brigands that are attacking the flanks of the rebel AS are now with aes sedai, and with both gates blocked, and the tower AS caught off guard because egwenes army travelled, it could be supposed that they have learned travelling from somewhere. From someone who would betray other purposes, such as egwenes plan<br /><br />so i agree that Nicola is the Judas


created: 2003-01-17 18:00:02
subject: <b>Gholam tears throats out</b>
body:
Plus, the Gholam's victim's are always described as having their &quot;throats torn out,&quot; aren't they?  I noticed that when I read it but shrugged it off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 18:04:59
subject: <b>A question</b>
body:
I still think becuase of the brutality of the murder that it was the gholam, but you do make an interesting point. On the other hand is the DoTNM just a title such as princess, and could this be one of Tuon's siblings??


created: 2003-01-17 18:20:16
subject: <b>The Gholam did it !</b>
body:
I don't think a decoy of Tuon was planned. Too much Seachan knows the face of Tuon, her Deathwatch guards, Ogier.. I think Semirhage prefer to fly under the radar than take these kind of action...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:16:13
subject: <b>Are you crazy?</b>
body:
I can't understand why everyone is jumping to the conclusion that there must be a plan to set up some sort of faux-Tuon for Rand to meet.  I mean, yeah, that is a possibility given Suroth's comments.  However, far more likely is that Suroth simply meant for Rand to meet with the real Tuon.  Even if Suroth didn't know of Tuon's whereabouts, she could still want Rand to meet with Tuon, assuming that she'd turn up.  Yet, I think it highly likely that Suroth (or at least whoever gives her her orders), being a Darkfriend, probably knows exactly where both Mat and Tuon are.  To believe otherwise, you have to be willing to argue that nobody in Mat's party (and probably Luca's show as well) is a DF.  Frankly, I think it's been made pretty clear that Noal is certainly spying for the Dark.  As to why Anath/Suroth/The Dark One/Whoever is willing to let Tuon go with Mat, that remains to be seen (although I have thoughts about that as well.)  Anyways, this whole fake Tuon assumption just blows my mind.


created: 2003-01-17 19:39:44
subject: <b>to The Ninth Rod</b>
body:
Even if there is a DF in Mat's party it doesn't mean that they shared their info with Suroth or whoever is above her.<br /><br />As for the original theory I doubt Semi or Suroth would bother ripping Tylin's head off when it'd be easier, especially for someone like Semi to make it look like Tylin died in her sleep by stopping her heart.  Also I'm pretty certain that there are plenty of others that would still be able to recognize Tuon even if they haven't seen her since they were all in Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 19:42:57
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
Well i haven't read COt but how was the msg sent? Mat leaves i'd say within 4 days of Rand Cleaning Saidin that leaves a MAX of 2 1/2 weeks from when Mat left till when rand got the message.. so it might be the Message was sent before Mat left and it took maybe 2 weeks to get there...so they don't need to know the real DOTNM was kidnapped when the message was sent on it's way to rand...unless it was by say Piegon/takar i can see how it'd take 2 weekas to reach rand *where ever he was * it's leagues distance and it's not the greatest time to be traveling Wars,plagues etc..that'd add time to the trip


created: 2003-01-17 20:01:18
subject: <b>Various answers</b>
body:
jbtowers, the gholam's first victim, Herid Fel, was torn limb from limb- the Gholam doesn't just tear throats.<br /><br />The Ninth Rod of Dominion, don't forget all those theories that Tuon has the male a'dam and thinks she has to use it on Rand. Suroth/Semirhage might be hedging their bets by letting Tuon go with Rand. If you're right then they can get her back whenrever they want, but if Rand won't come o them then Mat should take Tuon to Rand.<br /><br />daymon, Rand sent Bashere and Bael to negotiate with Suroth, presumably by gateway, and Bashere brought this response, so i'd say it's up to date. I'd stay it's some kind of set-up. Does Suroth know about the Death Watch who have gone looking for Tuon (who wore a veil most of the time I seem to remember)? If she does it seems rather neat that anyone loyal to Tuon who knows her face is now out of Ebou Dar.<br /><br />In responce to the theory, the Gholam probably has the best motive (disappointed after finding Mat gone, don't forget how much the dice were rattling that night, might be some of it was to with whether Mat left the bedroom in time or not) and is the most likely to kill in that fashion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 20:37:14
subject: <b>Yes, Random Monkey</b>
body:
I agree with you completely.  I believe that Suroth is setting up a meeting between Rand and the real Tuon, who does have the male a'dam.  My whole argument is simply that it makes no sense to leap to the conclusion that Suroth wants Rand to meet with someone who will be posing as Tuon, and the fact that she has the male a'dam makes it that much more reasonable to believe that Suroth, being a DF, probably wants Rand to meet with the real Tuon, not some phony imposter sans a'dam.  Anyways, the point is that, at the very least, there is no proof that anybody has any intention of setting up a faux-Tuon.


created: 2003-01-17 22:34:44
subject: <b>not the Seanchan</b>
body:
It certanly wasn't any of the Seanchan that had Tylin killed.  It is posable that it was DarkFriends, but not the Seanchan.  Tylin was of the blood.  Even the Seakers of Truth will not kill one of the blood, no mater the reason.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 23:17:06
subject: <b>sul'dam Tuon</b>
body:
suppostion #1: Tuon has the male a'dam in her posession (in the traveling show?  what, she just always happened to carry it on her person until such time as Mat finally got around to kidnapping her? - or maybe her personal slave, the big-busomed woman carried it for her?)  where does everyone get the idea that Tuon has it?  I know the Seanchan do, but Tuon specifically?<br />suppostion #2: Tuon can channel (granted this is pretty much a given at this point)<br />equals: Tuon will be the one (or one of the two) who will control Rand.<br /><br />&lt;shiver&gt; I do not like where this is going<br /><br />btw - I got the impression that Tuon &amp; Mat &amp; co. were probably going to be headed back to Seanchan controlled territory the last time we saw them. - except, what about our escaped damane?  hmmm... that bears thinking on<br />I think the golom did it.  And if Suroth is setting up a false Tuon, it is just coincidence to Tylin's death.


created: 2003-01-18 00:48:37
subject: <b>3rd choice...</b>
body:
I can see Semi killing Tylin but I don't believe Tuon or a Suroth groomed false-Tuon will be intoduced to Rand at the Seanchan meeting.  The original plan may have involved either but now I prefer a third choice, Semi as DoTNM with the male a'dam...


created: 2003-01-18 01:36:01
subject: <b>of course, this is pure speculation, but.....</b>
body:
my guess is that suroth is indeed setting up a fake-tuon.  as we learned in the chapter with the banner-general of the deathwatch guards, someone who is claiming to be the DotNM has been shaking down local merchants, while being accompanied by deathwatch guards. this was after tuon had left ebou dar with mat.  my pet theory is that semirhage will leash rand when he goes to make peace with the seanchen, and mat and tuon will hear about the conspiracy from the deathwatch guards and return to rescue rand, getting hitched along the way.  anyways this turned into a rather rambling post, ill stop now.  <br />flame away


created: 2003-01-18 09:47:23
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
But you dont need to pluck someone head's off to kill. Or the one that has done it wants to put the blame on a gholam.<br /><br />Either the killer was a gholam or someone who knew about gholam.


created: 2003-01-18 11:41:51
subject: <b>Some responses</b>
body:
<br />Hmmm, I thought the timing was the weak point of the theory, but some people have made a few interesting points I thought I'd try to answer.<br /><br />&gt;Suroth knows where Tuon is.<br />If you read the epilogue of CoT, it's clear that Rand would have negotiated with Suroth, but it seems, on Suroth's insistence, that it has to be the DotNM. Why insist on meeting with someone that Suroth knows is missing? The Nine Rods of Dominion suggested this was because Tuon could be scooped up at any time, but this doesn't make sense. If Suroth has no requirement for a replacement for Tuon, then why hasn't she got Tuon back? What is her motivation for leaving her travelling with Matt?<br /><br />From what I've read on this site, it seems likely Noal is not spying for Semirhage/Anath, but rather Graendal? Ishamael?. And again and again its been made clear the forsaken do not share info outside of a few loose alliances. If Suroth knew where Tuon was, why have there been various discreet searches by Seanchan troops and guards?<br /><br />&gt;Tuon has the male a'dam.<br />I have no idea what you base this on. Unless she carries it with her while walking the palace at night, how could she? She was kidnapped immediately and taken out of the city. She is not even in her own clothes anymore. She has no possessions.<br /><br />&gt;The dice rattling was Matt escaping the gholam.<br />The dice stopped when the city erupted in explosion from the escaping Windfinders, not as Matt left the city. They indicate the passing of a point of crisis, where bad luck could make a huge difference. I can't analyse why the early escape of the Windfinders made a difference to Matt's own escape, but I suspect it was something to do with the gate guards and the danger of discovery. The early explosion meant they were more or less waved right through, instead of Egeanin going inside for a drink. Matt worried at the time that someone would ask questions of the coincidence of all three damane having the ageless face of Aes Sedai.<br /><br />&gt;Tylin was of the blood, therefore no-one would have killed her. <br />Are you sure? Suroth? Semirhage? Any of their darkfriend servants?<br /><br />&gt;brutality of the murder<br />No blood drinking though, at least no mention of it. Hasn't been torn limb from limb. Matt wasn't even the gholam's primary target else, why would the gholam spend so much time killing outside the city limits, instead of going straight for Matt.<br /><br />Just to throw something else out there...<br /><br />If my theory is right then the continuing existence of Tuon is a potential problem for Suroth/ Semirhage. Sadly they might find it difficult to kill her. She is protected by three sul'dam and damane, Matt Cauthon and a band of guards. Worse, they have no idea where she is. So what can you do?? You'd need some sort of shadow spawn which is excellent at tracking, deadly to those even protected by wielders of the One power...like say 50 darkhounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 13:58:14
subject: <b>Much Ado</b>
body:
I can understand the temptation to try to make more out of what happens in CoT than there really is---It was disappointing how little happens, but I think the only thing we can take from the Epilogue is that Tuon has 'lifted the veil' and accepted the title DotNM.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 15:58:13
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
Sorry, but I don't agree.<br />-The Suroth / Semirhage partnership is unlikely to agree a treaty with the Dragon Reborn. <br />-I doubt Suroth would presume to speak for the DotNM unless she felt completely safe to do so. <br />-That the Seanchan possess a male a'dam and are seeking a direct meeting with tDR clearly indicates a trap.<br />-To offer a meeting with tDotNM when she isn't around is extremely fishy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 16:04:46
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
I agree with The_Wanderer.  There are too many people who already know Tuon, and recognize her. Tylin btw...never saw Tuon un-veiled.  Since Tuon was veiled before stepping off her ship.  Tylin never even knew Tuon was the Daughter of the Nine Moons anyways....because of the veil.<br /><br />I don't think anyone has a fake Tuon, unless they're keeping her hidden, out of sight.  Since Tuon herself had many loyal followers/supporters etc.  It was pointed out at least a couple times, how past servents, guards etc have chosen of their own free will to continue serving her after their 'term' was up.  Like the guard asking to re-serve as her part of her guard etc.<br /><br />As for who or what killed Tylin, I don't know...<br /><br />Sar.


created: 2003-01-18 19:06:32
subject: <b>a fake Tuon</b>
body:
Unless I totally missed the point of the discussion between Mor and Karede, it does seem there is a Tuon imposter.  I can hardly see Tuon blackmailing locals for jewelry.


created: 2003-01-18 22:08:56
subject: <b>Unless...</b>
body:
It was just away to get all of those out of the city who might be a problem to Suroth. If I remember correctly this was the trigger which motivated the Death Watch to go a search for Tuon. I have to say I have some doubts about this 'fake Tuon'. If she's part of a plan to trap Rand presumably she's working for Suroth, and so wouldn't need to go out herself and shake people down for jewelry. Of course we really need more info on the situation first.<br /> <br />I personally don't think Tuon has the male a'dam, more likely Semi/Suroth does, i was just replying to another point. Tuon is heading north, to fulfill Egwene's dreams, and there will be a separate storyline with Rand and the Seanchean (don't forget Nynaeve knows about Suroth, so it doesn't need Tuon to expose any Darkfriend plot).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-18 23:37:19
subject: <b>Fake Tuon, Real Danger</b>
body:
Lets remember that when Mat heard about &quot;the deal&quot; that was being made between the Seanchan and some power (Rand) that would let them move easier throughout Randland, he had the DoTNM with him.  It's pretty hard for Tuon to meet with Rand when she's still with Mat.  It has to be a fake Tuon from what I can see.  Not to mention the fact that it really can't be that hard to find someone that looks like Tuon and can control a Damane.  I really don't think that RJ would just forget to tell us that Tuon had already met with Rand, so it should in theory be at the beginning of the 11th book, with Rand thinking back to how he was suckered in and captured (at the very least). I think that when Mat still had Tuon and that when he heard about &quot;the deal,&quot; Rand was already headed to fulfill some crystal throne prophecy.<br /> <br />   Why have a fake Tuon?  Well, the Seanchan need to know that their figurehead isn't mysteriously missing (a bad omen for the return).  The Seanchan are pretty serious about their omens.  Also, Suroth doesn't really have to have a good explanation for her actions, she's probably being controlled by Semirhage by now. (I can't really understand why that didn't happen sooner, maybe it did)


created: 2003-01-19 00:53:48
subject: <b>The Seanchan's Deal</b>
body:
I have been thinking that the deal the Seanchan are talking about is with Masema's Dragonsworn.  We know he's been talking to them and he does have a lot of power and influence now.


created: 2003-01-19 01:46:27
subject: <b>Me too..</b>
body:
When I first read, I thought the big agreement was with the Prophet and his followers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 11:20:42
subject: <b>remember old Suroth?</b>
body:
i think you forget that suroth got hold of Egwene with Liandrin's help, a Darkfriend, probably both are. all suroth had to do was ask the Chosen she is taking orders from to arrange for tylin's death, the Gholam a simple sulotion.


created: 2003-01-19 18:35:45
subject: <b>still the golam, but also a fake tuon</b>
body:
After reading all of the evidence presented, it appears clear that there isn't enough to prove that suroth/semi had a plan to set up a false tuon before she was kidnapped, or that they killed Tylin.  I think it's most likely the gholam did it, and that tuon's dissapearance was an unforseen event for suroth and semi.  If we assume that semi controls suroth, and that between them they already had the male adam, then it makes sense that, after discovering Tuon was gone and tylin was dead, they decided it was the perfect way to complete a plan they had already thought of - controlling rand with the male a'dam.  rand has never met tuon, so he has no idea what she looks like, or any idea of the position and the ettiquite surrounding her title.  semi and suroth surely know this, so when he asks the seanchen for meetings about a truce, they must have snapped their darkfriendy heels together with glee - the dragon reborn coming to them, just like they planned, and he even asked for the meeting!  all of this assumes of course that semi is with suroth, which i have never seen proved.  if it does happen this way, at least it should give us some fireworks for a change. . . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-19 19:18:40
subject: <b>&quot;Under the Veil&quot; doesn't mean &quot;In Disguise&quot;</b>
body:
All of you who propose that Tuon being under the veil the entire time she has been in Ebou Dar is an advantage for Suroth/Semirhage being able to put forth a fake Tuon are missing the fact that the veil doesn't *hide* anything.  In WH, What a Veil Hides, p. 323, the veil is described as &quot;sheer&quot; and &quot;even more transparent than the da'covale's robes, the veil did not hide her face at all.&quot;


created: 2003-01-19 20:15:10
subject: <b>The Gholam killed Queen Tylin.</b>
body:
<br />I think the Gholam killed Tylin, plain and simple. I also think that there will be a final confrontation between Mat and the Gholam (maybe in book 30), where Mat will have the opportunity to avenge her and his other dead companions.<br /><br />Mat holds himself responsible over the death of Tylin. After all, the Gholam was out to kill him and not her. His closeness to her was the cause of her death. Also, Mat was the one that tied her up before he left, which made her more helpless than what she actually was against the thing. On top of guilt, Mat also grew a fondness for her over the time they were together. In her own funny way, she taught him to stop treating women as objects.<br /><br />So I think the Gholam killing Tylin is a strong lead to Mat and the Gholam fighting it out to the death in the coming books.<br />


created: 2003-01-20 01:02:17
subject: <b>One flaw</b>
body:
Only one flaw I can see, but it's a big one. Tylin's head was &quot;RIPPED&quot; off. I don't think any mere soldier could do that. That would take an inhuman amount of strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 01:17:58
subject: <b>I take it back...</b>
body:
The One Power is the other possible explanation, making Semirhage a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 02:45:43
subject: <b>Not Suroth</b>
body:
It would be amazingly swift if Suroth acts the following morning after Tuon's disappearance. Remember that Tuon has been known to disappear at times, she has even gone so far as to fake her own death. So I doubt that Suroth can be sure that Tuon has really disappeared the following morning when Mat has only been gone for a few hours.<br /><br />It seems way more logical for it to be the gholam trying to get to Mat and getting angry after not finding him in place. And instead of kicking against something he took it out on poor Tylin.


created: 2003-01-20 04:21:42
subject: <b>Fake Tuon</b>
body:
Look at the situation from Suroth's point of view... she finds one morning (the morning after lots of crazy stuff goes down) that Tuon is missing... Tuon is known to disappear on occasion... so it's unlikely that she should jump to conclusions... ie. that a fake Tuon is necessary... think how bad Suroth would look if Tuon came back and saw the impostor... most likely, this fake Tuon is not of Suroth's making...<br /><br />Now as for Suroth's claiming that tDotNM will meet with Rand about an alliance or whatever, she does this because it would be highly inappropriate for Suroth to negotiate an alliance or deal in the name of the Empress when everyone knows that tDotNM is in Ebou Dar and should be the rightful negotiator.  It would be a VERY obvious that something was wrong... So to avoid the trouble this would create, she has to assume that tDotNM will be back in time to negotiate with big bad Rand...<br /><br />As for the description of Tylin's head be ripped off... I just can't see how Semirhage would want Tylin dead... Basically, Tylin is a well-heeled dog that will do whatever his masters say, why kill her?  The gholam is the only one that seems to have reason to kill her... 'cuz she was there and mat, his real target, wasn't...


created: 2003-01-20 15:16:17
subject: <b>imfunny, but also very right!</b>
body:
I agree with you on those points...<br /><br />No fake Tuon, as Suroth has seen her go awandering before.<br /><br />Although Rand being asked to meet with the DoTNM is quite suspicious as we know she's not there, from Suroth's point of view she is expecting Tuon to be back in time.<br /><br />Thirdly, the gholam killed Tylin, he went there for Matt and killed Tylin purely because she was there, was easy prey and because they enjoy killing (maybe he fed as well, the book doesn't say)<br /><br />....<br /><br />As stated before, Tuon's veil is not a disguise, merely a badge of office to show people whether she should be regarded as the DoTNM or just a Lady<br /><br />....<br /><br />The main question I have is why Tuon wanted to go with Matt in the first place? <br />I don't think the answer has even been hinted at yet (she's been interested in him from the start but why? seems more than just a crush to me), but what seems obvious is that she's only there because she wants to be there!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 15:33:10
subject: <b>This is fun, more, more!</b>
body:
The fake Tuon has to be of Suroth's making. Only she knows Tuon is missing, and what kind of suicidal idiot would impersonate one of the Blood unless they know he/she is AWOL.<br /><br />Look at this from the Gholam's point of view. Mat's been hanging around the palace for weeks and weeks, and it hasn't gone near him. It's been ordered to &quot;avoid notice, save by those I harvest&quot;. It suddenly changes this policy and goes out for Matt the very night he's out of there? After finding Mat gone, instead of leaving, it decides to rip off Tylins head and then wander away again? How is killing the queen in her own bedchamber in a busy palace &quot;avoiding notice&quot;? Why no blood drinking?<br /><br />&gt;&gt;Sheer veil<br />Yeah, that's absolutely right. I re-read that a couple of nights ago and hoped no-one would notice! (she also was not manipulated into appearing veiled, it was her own choice) But still, I don't think it blows a hole in the theory. Tylin is still the sole person other than Suroth and Anath to spend any significantly long time with Tuon, is able to recognise her and still commands enough power in Ebou Dar to pose a problem. Deathwatch guards don't look upon the Blood. Remember Egaenin and Tuon in CoT. I think it easy enough to pass off an imposter if there are only soldiers to fool, simply because they would rarely really see Tuon, and would not get suspicious, especially with Suroth of the Blood issuing orders.<br /><br />&gt;&gt;Semirhage<br />For a detailed Semirhage = Anath discussion, look through the theory post. It certainly has me convinced.<br /><br />Oh, and about the timing...who is to say Tylin wasn't questioned before death? I doubt she would hold much back in Semirhage's capable hands. She knew enough of Mat and his plans to leave, and of course Semirhage would be well aware of Mat Cauthon. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 21:10:12
subject: <b>Who's going to spill the beans?</b>
body:
I strongly believe that it _is_ a fake Tuon, for several reasons - but Suroth may have not been the impetus for  setting her up. (BTW, I think the gholam did kill Tylin, but Semi and Suroth are capitalizing on it.)<br />If Semi is behind it, then Suroth has no choice but to obey. Think about it from Semi's PoV. Tuon disappears along with Egeanin, two AS damane, and Mat. I think we can assume all the Forsaken know the three ta'veren by now, and when there's a ta'veren around it's a pretty safe bet for her to assume Mat had something to do with it. <i>There is no-one left who will recognise a fake Tuon!</i> The servants don't look at her, nor do the low Blood - and Tuon was spending all her time with Suroth and Tylin, not the other High Bloods. Tylin's conveniently been taken out by the <i>gholam</i>. Suroth is in on it. Tuon's closest friend and servant is also gone. Her sul'dam and damane and bodyguards, who all know her well, are off hunting for her. Who's going to know? If the appearance is close enough, there isn't anyone who will question it (as questioning is likely to get yourself into the hands of the Seekers.) Semi and Suroth can set up a false, pliable DoTNM who will do the right things and allow them to capture Rand (who has just conveniently sent a message asking for a meeting.) The rumour of the girl at the docks comes in - since Tuon has gone seriously AWOL before, if she reappears (especially with a rumour going around that she was seen in the interim) then no-one will comment. Barring Tuon herself reappearing suddenly, they're safe. And if, as was pointed out above, a pack of Darkhounds kills her off first...<br />There is some supporting evidence for this in the CoT blurb. It says that Mat can neither keep her nor let her go, and that the Shadow and the Seanchan are in pursuit. If Suroth and Semi are setting up a false DoTNM and trying to kill off Tuon, this makes perfect sense. That's the Shadow pursuit, and the reason Mat can't just send her back (she'd be dead.) The Deathwatch Guards are the Seanchan pursuit and the reason he can't keep her. This wouldn't be the first time the blurb of a WoT book has been a bit ahead of itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 02:12:03
subject: <b>The strength it takes to rip someone's head off</b>
body:
There's a *definite* difference between someone's head being sliced off and someone's head being ripped off.  A clean cut is much different looking than a tear in flesh.  Given that, I'd say it'd have to be someone using the power, or the Gholam.  A human would have one heck of a time grabbing someone's head and successfully ripping it from their body.  Aside from that, it'd have to be quick, because the struggle would be more easily detected.  Could be a Forsaken, but I tend to stick with the Gholam.  He had motive for being there (Mat).


created: 2003-01-25 13:13:31
subject: <b>why a fake?</b>
body:
ok, the only real question I have is why there has to be a fake DotNM's. Think about this for a second. I want to capture tDR, he conviently calls me up for a meeting. I say sure come on down, You'll have to do it through the DotNM though for I am not allowed to do that type of negotiation. Now, I set the meeting up, except for one small problem, theres a bunch of people with some new jewlery for tDR. With both tDR captured and tDotNM's disappearence, I can basically do whatever I want including running over and tackling the white tower...<br />...But thats another theory <br />~ Kalin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Maddy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />Yeah, you know your jealous<br /><br />&quot;I don't believe in magic, but for you I will&quot;<br /><br />&quot;There is no doubt, no internal struggle. Only quiet, powerful confidence&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 11:27:29
subject: <b>Disguises</b>
body:
What is the point of the &quot;not to many people would be able to remember what Tuon's face looked like&quot; dicussion. If Semi wants to impersonate Tuon, all she has to do is weave one of those inverted disguises. Then she will look exactly like Tuon and she will be able to get right up next to Rand to put the collar on him.


created: 2003-02-04 19:06:31
subject: <b>Bingo</b>
body:
I think Kalin's got it right.  There doesn't need to be a fake DotNM, Suroth just needs bait to bring Rand close enough to leash.<br /><br />The Gholam killing Tylin has nothing to do with Tuon other than her being with Mat now.  Oh, yeah, the Gholam did it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Of course that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 11:51:09
subject: <b>No answers, just questions, really...</b>
body:
1. As for any other suspect for killing Tylin, who but a gholam would do it this way? Maybe on ogier of the Deathwatch Guard may have the physical strength, but a reason ought to be hard to find, unless we are meeting the first ogier darkfriend here without an introduction.<br />2. Who could be a fake Tuon? Not just anyone I guess... apart from the physical similarity, it needs to be someone able to behave like the real Tuon superfically at least, or the seekers might get suspicious, whose loyalty is to the Empress, not the DotNM. Considering the speed of a &quot;new&quot; DotNM being offered, that would rule out all but those who had the needed abilities before Tuon vanished.<br />Which Seanchan would dare it, giving their cultural conditioning? Only a darkfriend, and maybe not even most of them. A darkfriend of sufficient knowledge about the blood, looking enough like Tuon, among the relatively few Seanchan yet returned to Randland? Possible, but it would stretch it a bit...<br />Of course the physical restrictions could be lifted by the right kind of one-power-based disguise provied by Semi, but the voice would still need to be imitated, not all that easy to do. Someone able to channel might be able to change this too, though, but a darkfriend damane ...? Or a taught Suldam? All would need some explaining, I'd say.<br />That would leave Semirrhage, who would have to play two roles at a time, or have a replacement for her original role, which however might be easier... but still leave her needing to continually hide her channeling ability while dependent on it to maintain her disguise.<br />3. Could it mean that some aspect of Tuon's disappearance made her suddenly a nonperson in the Seanchan view? So that there already is a new DotNM? However, I fail to see how that could be without the Empress having a say in it...<br />I can't see any explanation answering all these questions yet, but i believe they'd need to be, by any good theory...<br /><br />Lorin


created: 2003-02-14 04:39:46
subject: <b>What is... not the gholam!</b>
body:
I came to post this comment and noticed Random Monkey had in part already pointed it out however I feel it deserves an underscoring.<br /><br />Somethings to think about:<br />* All the Dark Ones minions delight in killing<br />* Herid Fel, a victim of the gholam was torn limb from limb and left in a bloody, pulpous pile to be found.<br />* Tylin, still bound and gagged had her head ripped off.<br />* The Gholam killing by ripping throats out.<br /><br />As can be seen when given little time the gholam can be an efficient killer. What can also be seen, is that when given plenty of time he will thoroughly enjoy his victims pain before it dies. Ripping the head off a bound and gagged person seems rather quick don'tcha think?<br /><br />If you want some precedence, the guilotine chopping the heads off of royalty (ie: the blood) as compared to hanging more common criminals. A quick death, (though modern studies have reason to believe that it wasn't an instant death)<br /><br />Now I'm not saying it was the Seanchan who did it for certain, heck it could have been the shadow for whatever reason, all I'm pointing out is the gho'lam had more than enough time to enjoy tylin's kill were it his with the palace gaurds focused on an attack within the city.<br /><br /><br />Jheran...<br />*insert witty remark here*<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jheran...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Insert witty remark here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 15:02:44
subject: <b>Tuon has announced herself</b>
body:
Tuon was incognito on the mainland before getting captured. No one even knew that the Daughter of The Nine Moons was around. Suroth would NEVER have volunteered her and exposed her without permission. Prior to Rand getting the message, we have seen Tuon announce herself the the traveling show. Who is to say she has not reclaimed her place amoung the Seanchan? Perhaps she informed Suroth that she is safe and is taking over. While the news would have had to travel fast, it is more likly than Suroth breaking from all tradition. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Easing The Badger<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 17:26:03
subject: <b>Tuon incognito?</b>
body:
How about Bethamins thoughts in Ch 20 of WH? &quot;There would be joy in the city, in the land, when Tuon finally revealed herself, and celebrations as though she had just arrived. She felt a guilty pleasure at thinking of the Daughter of the Nine Moons so, as when she had done something forbidden as a child, though of course, until Tuon removed her veil, she was merely the High Lady Tuon, no higher than Suroth.&quot;<br /><br />If she knows Tuon, who else does?<br /><br />respectfully<br />-Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 14:37:28
subject: <b>Blarg...let me get my thoughts together...</b>
body:
OK.  Let's review the situation.  This is going to be long, sorry.<br /><br />FACT:  Tylin was found with her head ripped off.  We don't know whether she was sans blood, or not.<br /><br />FACT:  Suroth is a Darkfriend.  She recieves the Wondergirls from Liandrin in TGH and they speak of &quot;our master.&quot;  Hence, Ishy.<br /><br />FACT:  Semirhage is Anath.  I just felt like throwing this in for anyone who refuses to believe it.<br /><br />FACT:  Forsaken tend to &quot;reign in&quot; Darkfriends when they operate in their area.  Like Sammael taking control of Carridin, and Mesaana commanding Alviarin despite her being used previously by Be'lal, Lanfear, and Graendal.<br /><br />FACT:  There is some sort of &quot;fake Tuon&quot; operating by the docks, extorting jewelry.<br /><br />FACT:  Noone has seen Anath OR Tuon since the night of the Windfinder's escape.  This includes Furyk Karede, the leader of the Deathwatch Guards, who was also Tuon's personal bodyguard for a while.  (i.e. he would know what she looks like.)<br /><br />FACT:  Suroth tells Bashere, Logain, and Loial that Rand will speak to the DAUGHTER OF THE NINE MOONS.  Not the High Lady Tuon.<br /><br />FACT:  Suroth has the Sad Bracelets.  Egeanin and Domon specifically refer to her having them when they recall how Domon's ship was captured by the Seanchan.<br /><br />FACT:  Anath/Tuon has some sort of plan set up to capture Rand.  This is obvious by their conversation on the ship, when Anath talks about how dangerous Tuon could be to Rand.<br /><br />FACT:  The Sad Bracelets screw over female channelers who use them.<br /><br />All right, let's start at the very beginning.  The first seal has been broken and the Forsaken are loose.  Tuon comments that her previous Truthspeaker &quot;fell down some stairs&quot; (yeah, right) just when the Forsaken were carving out their little niches.  Therefore, Semi wasn't dicking  around on the mainland for a while BEFORE going to Seanchan.  OK, at this point, Ishy's still at large, and as the Seanchan are his brainchild, I find it hard to believe that Semi would be messing around with them without his blessing.<br /><br />Flash forward to Winter's Heart.  Tuon (or rather Anath) has a plan to capture Rand when he talks to her.  How are they thinking about doing this?  We don't know whether damane know how to shield male channelers.  BUT!  Darkfriend Suroth has the Sad Bracelets, courtesy of the Bayle Domon express.  So, logically, the plan involves the Sad Bracelets.  Unfortunately, there's a question of communication here.  We know that Semi doesn't leave Tuon for just any reason.  If she's missing the Forsaken Coffee Hour, she's not going to go gating around looking for Suroth.  However, we have to remember, Suroth was Ishy's creature in TGH.  She seems to have gone dormant by the time TSR rolls around, because there is no hint of Dark Persuasion in her POV.  But Moridin is around in WH.  It seems logical to me that he would have reactivated her.  She does seem to have remarkably accurate numbers of Rand's forces in PoD.  Hmmm... Anyway.  Ishy hands her off to Semi when she arrives in Ebou Dar.  This would explain why Suroth is all indignant towards Anath when we first see them:  remember that Tuon and Anath have just arrived themselves.  Semi has had no time to make contact.  So, since the Forsaken reign in nearby Darkfriends, Suroth was either grabbed by Semi at this point or handed to her earlier by Ishy.<br /><br />OK: Semi's plan to capture Rand.  It seems apparent to me that the whole &quot;Daughter of the Nine Moons&quot; title would be a major carrot to Rand.  Remember, Rand has read the Prophecies -- he knows that he must &quot;bind the nine moons to serve him.&quot;<br /><br />BUT!  Tuon hears her fortune from the damane, Lidya, and viels herself.  Suddenly, she is just the High Lady Tuon.  Uh-oh... Semi doesn't like this.  Right at the beginning, she tells Tuon that she is being a fool for veiling herself.  Later, Mat overhears her upbraiding Tuon AGAIN for continuing to wear the veil.  Semi's plan won't work as well with Tuon being the mere &quot;High Lady.&quot;<br /><br />What was this fortune that Lidya told her about?  It must have been something about Mat.  His spear, or his ring, or hat, or some sort of identifier that tied Mat to her.  What else would explain Tuon's fascination with him?  And the fact that she smiled when he said that he would be taking her with him.<br /><br />More on Mat and Tuon.  Despite the fact that Mat ripped off her veil at the end of WH, and she is unveiled throughout CoT, Tuon is still technically &quot;veiled.&quot;  When Mat calls her the Daughter of the Nine Moons in CoT, Selucia bites his head off, saying that she is still &quot;veiled&quot; and merely the High Lady Tuon.  THEREFORE!  If Tuon is still veiled, Suroth cannot tell Rand that he will be meeting with the DAUGHTER OF THE NINE MOONS!  IMO, this points conclusively to the presence of an impostor.<br /><br />OK, now I'll address the theory that Mat and Tuon returned to Ebou Dar by the time that Rand got the message.  This, however, doesn't hold water.  Remember the deal that Mat made with Tuon?  She wouldn't betray him, and he would return her to Ebou Dar when it was safe to do so.  Now, look at the last Mat chapter, &quot;Something Flickers.&quot;  IMO, RJ does some poor writing here, or more people would have grasped this.  The rite of passage that Tuon gives to Mr. Luca gives he safe passage to anywhere within Seanchan-controlled lands.  But there is a list of people not under her protection.  Mat's name tops this list.  So!  MAT IS NOT UNDER PROTECTION, AND THEREFORE IT IS NOT SAFE FOR HIM TO RETURN TUON TO EBOU DAR.  Tuon wants to stay with him, for some reason.  They are NOT going back to Ebou Dar.  It cannot be Tuon who is meeting with Rand.<br /><br />Back to Ebou Dar.  Semirhage is suddenly sans DotNM.  She has NO IDEA where she has gone.  Mat and Co. effectively escaped from the city.  What can Semi do?  Tuon, the sul'dam, was going to be using the Sad Bracelets in the original plan.  But Semirhage WILL NOT use the Sad Bracelets herself.  Now that the Taint is cleansed, there is no danger of madness passing through the male a'dam, but Rand can still gain control through the link after a while.  It is too dangerous for her to use it herself.  Remember, Moggy doesn't even want to touch it.  So Semi HAS to get someone else to use it.  She has to groom a fake Tuon to do it for her.<br /><br />So, in conclusion, Mat and Tuon have NOT returned to Ebou Dar.  That, put together with the fact that this DotNM impostor has shown up in Ebou Dar, plus the fact that Semi is gone into seclusion, points to a fake Tuon.<br /><br />Oh yeah, and about the original theory... it was the gholam.  Suroth and Semi didn't know that Tuon would be vanishing that night.  This &quot;fake DotNM&quot; plan has been hastily put together.  There was no need for an impostor, and therefore no need to kill Tylin, until Tuon vanished.  Tylin was just tied up in the wrong place at the wrong time.<br /><br />And boy, was this long.  Sorry.


created: 2003-01-19 13:11:10
subject: <b>Olu's funny quotes about Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
&quot;Mesaana was about be raped by Sh/DO. He's such a perv...hehe. He even wanted Alvi to watch. She would got raped too, if she stayed. He dropped his armor, and was about to drop his drawers as Alvi left.&quot;-Olu


created: 2003-01-19 15:04:58
subject: <b>I saw this</b>
body:
on the MB the other day. I figured it would end up here. <br /><br /> Good job Olu! Well thought out and organized ideas.<br /><br /> Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 15:37:32
subject: <b>Another possibility?</b>
body:
Has there to be two distinct personas for Shaidar Haran?<br /><br />Could he not be both?<br /><br />I was struck by your description of the change coming over SH when he went to punish Mesaana, and his choice of words &quot;MY HAND REACHES FAR&quot;. It seems to me another possibility is that Shaidar Haran can somehow 'become' the Great Lord (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) for short periods. SH is linked to the Great Lord somehow, as shown by the draining weakness when away from Shayol Ghul.<br /><br />I suppose this is another way of putting support for the Avatar theory really, though the distinction is that the Dark One acts directly through SH its messenger at will, as opposed to slowly changing SH into the DO as the seals weaken over time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 15:44:33
subject: <b>they could be the same</b>
body:
I've always thought, and still do, that Moridin and Shaidar Haran were the same, like Ishamael and Ba'alzamon were the same. After reading this theory, I think that there's more here that points to that. By the way, thanks for letting me use your points, Olu.<br /><br />The idea that SH is an errand boy for Moridin is a little narrow. Where you said SH does all the dirty work, that sums his role up better. Ba'alzamon performed a similar role for Ishamael. <br /><br />The difference was in the freedom Ishamael/Ba'alzamon enjoyed compared to Moridin/Shaidar Haran. None of the reborn Forsaken have as much power, freedom, and/or strength in the one power as they did previously. (Though, I grant that Aran'gar has managed to adapt well.) It stands to reason, then, that Ishamael would be reborn likewise: with his tether to Shayol Ghul.<br /><br />Also, about Moridin being the one in Shadar Logoth to help Rand, I'm not so certain. I can't see how any of the Forsaken, even crazy Ishy, can justify saving Rand's life for any reason. But that's just me.<br /><br />In the end, I think this was a great, and thorough, theory. Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 17:56:51
subject: <b>rats and ravens</b>
body:
I think there is a passage (i don't have the books to hand to verify this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> ) at the start of TDR when Perrin shoots a raven, and one of the Shinarans says it has to report, usually to a Myrddraal<br /><br />As for the theory, i like it, it gives a clearer idea of Shaidar's status in the Dark hierarchy.  what we really need now is to see Shaidar Haran and Moridin in the same room at once.  <br /><br />maybe he made SH a Myrddraal after seeing what happened to the last human he tampered with to make a special 'servant' - Padan Fain.  just a thought<br /><br />Mortecareus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 18:57:52
subject: <b>Dark binding of Mesaana</b>
body:
That description of Shaidar Haran's capture of Mesaana sounds too much like what people who are into sadomachism (sp) would do, thereby increasing the likelyhood of Mesaana being raped. If the transformation of Shaidar Haran meant the Dark One possessing the Superfade's body for a while, could the Dark One use his body to know of mortal pleasures (both good kind and bad kind)? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 11:19:07
subject: <b>To Burr</b>
body:
The dark one does not see what Rat's see as Ragan clearly states at the start of The Great Hunt - they have to report. Nice theory btw<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 14:15:41
subject: <b>Avatar w/ Part Time Posession</b>
body:
I think the theory is top notch; however, if you want to talk about multiple modes, I think it is more likely that SH is an avatar with a limited amount of free will. However, the DO is capable of taking posession of SH at will, especially when closer to SG.<br />When SH speaks {ital}ex cathedra, {ital} the DO is speaking through SH. Most other times, SH is his own Fade, to a point. Moridin is always his own man. He has his own will and never seems to be posessed as does SH.<br />SH often changes modes mid-encounter.<br /><br />I think SH acts as both fully possessed avatar, and watchdog/avatar amalgam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 15:32:22
subject: <b>More evidence to theory</b>
body:
There is a segment in either tSR or tFoH (I don't have my books with me in the dorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)where either Nynaeve or Perrin sees a meeting with the Forsaken from above.  All of the Forsaken leave with the exception of Lanfear and Ishamael.  Ishamael asks if she serves herself (or something like that)or the Great Lord.  This does not sound like a comment that the rest of the Forsaken would make to each other.  The rest really don't seem to care, as long as they do not interfere with their own plans.  This could possibilly be more evidence supporting your theory that Moridin is the physical form of the DO.  Btw, great theory!<br /><br />Suzanne Scott<br /><br />happily bonded to Blake <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />aka The Old Hag <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Erin<br /><br />&quot;Give me your tots.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 20:30:58
subject: <b>Nae'blis...</b>
body:
has beeen promised to the Forsaken throughout, even when the DO was last free (i.e. in the War of Power). It would therefore seem that it is not an indication that an individual has become an Avatar, since at that point the DO did not need one. Rather, I think that Moridin/Ishy has simply been the most steadfast in promoting the DO's plans (as opposed to personal ambition) and that therefore the DO trusts him (perhaps Moridin's use of the True Power indicates the DO has some kind of extra hold over him). None of Moridin's POV's (which I noticed you neglected to include in any real detail) indicate Moridin is anything more than the DO's most loyal Forsaken. The other Forsaken who have met Moridin also don't seem to view him as more than Ishy reincarnate, and they would be in the best position to know.<br /><br />Thus, it would seem to me that the evidence supports SH being, if not the avatar of the DO (and his development as the seals weaken would seem to suggest this) certainly a personal agent, in a way that Moridin is not. Of course, in many ways the nature of the DO remains somewhat mysterious, and thus it is difficult to form conclusions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 00:21:20
subject: <b>Random Monkey, During War of the Power</b>
body:
The Dark One was not yet free when LTT and the Hundred Companions sealed the Bore. From &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghul&quot; the bore was expanding, and the Dark Ones influence on the world growing, but he wasn't free.<br />I think the name &quot;Hand of the Dark&quot; makes the point. SH is a part of the DO and will continue to become more so as the seals weaken and the bore begins to expand again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 01:05:55
subject: <b>1</b>
body:
I agree with the last poster. Shadar Haran is probably a part of &quot;The Dark One&quot;. And were did everyone get that ridicoulos idea that &quot;The Dark One&quot; was free in the AoL. Shadar Haran is probably not the Avatar of &quot;The Dark One&quot;. If he was, then wouldn't he had been around in the AoL too, when &quot;The Dark One&quot; had no seal to worry about? No. If &quot;The Dark One&quot; has a Avatar, Moridin/Ishammael is the Avatar. I mean after all, he hasn't been punished for claiming that he was &quot;The Dark One&quot;. We haven't seen such behaviour accepted for the other forsaken...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 16:28:52
subject: <b>Hand of the Dark</b>
body:
As was previously posted, I think that SH's name, Hand of the Dark, is quite indicative of who he actually is. As the DO's &quot;Hand&quot; he is the most trusted servant - probably even more trusted than Morridin who can think for himself. However, SH's comment about severing it's dependance on SG seems to indicate some level of independant thought, maybe without the DO's knowledge.<br /><br />Historically, a ruler's &quot;hand&quot;, or more specifically, his &quot;right hand&quot; has been his most important, most trusted servant. Morridin is Nae'blis, because he is human and has used his independant will to unswervingly serve the DO. As a construct, SH is more like an imensly powerfull tool.<br /><br />This is a fascinating discussion. I can't wait to see where it goes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 20:31:23
subject: <b>Did the DO know...</b>
body:
About Ba'alzamon claiming to be the DO, afterall this was fairly early on, and it has been commented on that the DO is not omnipotent, and often doesn't know about some quite important developments. It may also be that the DO did not care since Ishy was carrying out his wishes.<br /><br />Okay I was wrong about the DO breaking free (although i'm not sure if this point has ever quite been resolved, if it has please tell me where), but my point about Nae'blis stands I think, and is even backed up by the point that SH isn't mentioned from the AoL. Whether the DO was free or confidant he would break free (the Collapse suggests his influence was greater from the beginning then than even in CoT now) he did not have a personal agent as closely connected to him as SH is. Instead he simply wanted a human 'regent' to oversee his plans.<br /><br />Therefore, Moridin is not an extension or Avatar of the DO, while SH may be (I'm still not certain of the exact relationship between SH and the DO). SH isn't doing 'grunt work' he (as the voice or even the presence of the DO) is sent to put the DO's minions back in line when they're not following the plan (which presumably is being organised &amp; administrated by Moridin- in some ways he's the one doing the grunt work)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 22:38:25
subject: <b>SH is now the hand of the dark</b>
body:
I agree that the DO wasnt free in AOL, just had his little hole to stick his hand through and screw arround with the world. I think that now that the Seals are weakining his hole is reopening, i think that when we first saw SH he was more of &quot;The Finger of the Dark&quot; because that was earlier when all the DO could get out of his prison to influence the world was his finger, SH has been around since the first book(the fade following rand from the start), and has been gaining strength since. He may now be the Hand yet, i think he is the embodiment of maybe 3 or 4 fingers of the DO. what happenes if the Bore opens up enough for the DO to get other body parts out? What next? Trouser-Snake of the Dark? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 23:27:26
subject: <b>what one fade</b>
body:
how would we know it was 1 fade? ..did he have a mark ..or everytime say remember me...or what? i remember a fade that rand sees on the road..and he was the one leading the Trollocks at Elmond Field... and then followed him all the way to Whitebridge ..If i remember right Thom killed that fade..if i'm right he remarks on it in one of his PoV ...if not then you might be right that that was Shaidar Haran and he's been growing as the DO has..<br /><br />Nice find on that either way it got me thinking.


created: 2003-01-22 02:19:16
subject: <b>Jordan's comments</b>
body:
Apparently Jordan stated at a book signing that SH holds a higher position than Moridin in the Shadow's hierarchy, and that SH is an Avatar of the DO.  Not his exact words, but a pretty accurate paraphrase.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 02:27:48
subject: <b>2</b>
body:
I hadn't realised what an avatar was really, so you could ignore my comment. I don't think that &quot;The Dark One&quot; has an avatar. Since I don't think that he/she/it is a deity. Neither is he/she/it omnipotent. Doesn't seem like it anyway. <br />The point is, that since Shadar Haran wasn't around last time, then he/she/it isn't something continuos. I might as well be so that &quot;The Dark One&quot; isn't anything more than a superfade. Nobody ever understood how the Fades we created. Maybe they're just Trollocs where &quot;The Dark One&quot;s touch is stronger, so they start to look more like &quot;The Dark One&quot;. Anyway this is probably just because I cannot take the thought of the creator and the destroyer being at equal footing. I makes no sense at all since there are just one creator and several destroyers...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 02:37:02
subject: <b>instantaneous communication?</b>
body:
I believe that in tDR, while waiting for Leya to climb the mountain to Moiraine, a raven burst out of the cover...the Sheinarans that were with Perrin killed it, and Perrin asked, &quot;Does it have to report, or does the Dark One see what it sees?&quot;  I believe the answer (I'm not sure from whom) was, &quot;No, it has to report.&quot;  So, I don't beleive that instananeous communication is a facet of Shaidar Harans abilites.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange">For Kory...always</font><br /><font color="red">Rana is my Evil_Mistress&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="purple">Aes Sedai to MaxVonBek</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> mazey's sunshine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> Has the coffee shop opened yet?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 15:49:09
subject: <b>Myrdraal weren't</b>
body:
around yet when the Bore was drilled by Lanfear and Beidomon (I think it was Beidomon or something close). They were an accidental by-product from Aginor's Trollocs. Using a special Myrdraal as his &quot;hand&quot; therefore wouldn't have been an option for the Dark One in the Age of Legends/War of the Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 22:44:36
subject: <b>The Trollocs...</b>
body:
were around in the War of Power, so why not fades. The Forsaken cetainly seemed familiar with them. Therefore the DO could potentially have had a superfade agent at least at the end of the AoL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 10:03:15
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
Maybe SH is one of the supposedly dead chosen re-incarnated as others have been, never been said they have to be reincarnated in men or women and the new powers SH is always showing are somehow related to the true power.<br />It could also go some way to explain how it shows personality i.e getting away from shayol ghul and knows things such as when talking to mesaana. coz he was around then and knows these things.


created: 2003-01-23 10:12:14
subject: <b>Deities in Religion and Fantasy</b>
body:
I'm not an expert on religion, but isn't Evil normally just a follower of God/Creator who went astray? Like a fallen angel, etc.? (or at least a minor being in those religions which have several gods and goddesses)<br />Meaning that Evil is often not a deity/god (whether it is immortal is a completely different thing, I mean angels are immortal and are not gods).<br />The fact that the Creator does not directly take a hand but acts via champion/s (the Dragon and possibly Perrin and Mat) while the Dark One is much closer to the world and actually acts upon it (to a limited degree) indicates to me that there is a distinct difference between these two beings.<br />The Creator appears to me more of a neutral bystander, than a tangible &quot;Good&quot;. In contrast to that the Dark One is certainly a corporeal entity, a tangible &quot;Evil&quot;.<br />Consequently it does not make sense for Shadar Haran to be the Dark One's avatar as this is usually the mortal incarnation of an immaterial entity.<br /><br />Hope I didn't repeat what someone else already said <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Sliph<br /><br />[I just picked this name because all good ones were taken]</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 12:11:05
subject: <b>Trollocs and therefore fades</b>
body:
were around DURING the War of the Power, but they weren't around when the bore was drilled. I doubt the Dark One would follow a thought proccess along the lines of &quot;these new myrdraal seem like jolly good fellows, top notch, top notch. I believe I'll try one these chaps out as an avatar!&quot; But, after 3,000 years including the Trolloc wars, using a Fade (or superfade) this way wouldn't seem so slapdash.<br />I don't recall exactly how long the time period was between the drilling of the bore and the sealing of the bore, and somewhere in between Aginor creates Trollocs and Myrdraal. But I don't see it as a long enough period for the DO to put a Myrdraal in such a position during the War of the Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 23:19:30
subject: <b>Avatar is...</b>
body:
Here is a dictionary Definition of Avatar<br /><br />av&#183;a&#183;tar<br />n. <br /><br />1. The incarnation of a Hindu deity, especially Vishnu, in human or animal form. <br />2. An embodiment, as of a quality or concept; an archetype: the very avatar of cunning. <br />3. A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity: occultism in its present avatar.<br /><br />Now, we have to admit that SH falls under definition 2 of avatar, since he is the embodiment of evil.<br /><br />Since he seems to be actually controlled by the DO at least occasionally, he is at least occasionally definition one. Which means that he would fall under definition 3.<br /><br />He is the Avatar. He is also the watch dog. I like your arguments, but you yourself in your initial statement say he is the avatar by the definition you are using.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Croswise to The Pattern and loving it.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 16:13:18
subject: <b>aginor tested fades in the Aol</b>
body:
Remeber messana or semirage thinks about it in one of their pov so fades were about in the AOL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 20:50:25
subject: <b>The Shadow Fades</b>
body:
Aginor made the Trollocs and Myrddraal were accidental offshoots of the Trolloc experiments in the War of Power. Remember the POV of Osan'gar when we first met the 'gars in LoC. Aginor (Osan'gar), as the Dr. Mengele of the War of Power and inventor of Shadowspawn should be the expert on all Shadowspawn, but he's all mentally shocked and horrified at the very existence of a creature like Shaidar Haran. If he knew how much Shaidar Haran is growing stronger, he would be terrified out of his wits.<br /><br />Another thing about the Bore: It grew larger throughout the War of Power and Lews Therin's Seal was merely a patch over the Bore--LTT did NOT pull the hole closed, just sewed a patch over it. When the Seals weakened and broke, is the Bore just as large as when Lews Therin Sealed it, or larger? If so, no wonder the Dark One was able to transform a fade into Shaidar Haran and possess his body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 08:50:47
subject: <b>Moridin gets the DO's emotions</b>
body:
This is somewhat adding to the theory that Moridin is somehow the embodiment of the DO :-<br /><br />There are 2 parts to this post:<br /><br />1.<br />When two channellers are linked/joined in a circle they can sense each others feelings and emotions, the AS-Warder Bond and the AM-AS Bond also transmit the mental state of the bond's members. The Myrddraal-Trolloc bond allows the Myrddraal to control and overrule the bestial nature of the Trollocs.<br /><br />2.<br />The TP is drawn from the DO, the DO can restrict who can channel it.<br />If you can channel the OP you can also channel the TP, this implies that the structure or form of the TP is similar to the OP. It's possible that this similarity lends support to the theory that the TP is drawn from the OP and then perverted by the DO for his own purposes.<br />So, I think this means that when drawing the TP into yourself you are actually linking in some way with the DO.<br /><br />So, bringing these two aspects together I believe that by channelling the TP you are setting up a mental connection between yourself and the DO.<br /><br />This would explain why Ishy went a bit <i>loopy</i> and even began to believe he was the DO himself.


created: 2003-01-31 07:01:18
subject: <b>smile</b>
body:
Remember throughout the first 3-4 books the fade that is seen sneering/smiling, no fades do that so it must've been recessant Shaidar Haran.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-03 20:12:30
subject: <b>Just and addition...</b>
body:
The theory of SH being present as the original Fade in the Two Rivers is interesting, but my point is in regards to the DO having an avatar in the AoL: how do we know he didn't have an avatar?  Just because none of the Forsaken have mentioned it doesn't preclude the existence of such an entity.  If anyone has evidence of there NOT being an avatar-type character, please let me know, but I'm pretty sure the possibility is still open.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 14:01:22
subject: <b>Watchdog &amp; Avatar and True Power</b>
body:
It seems to me that SH is getting his power directly from the DO. Although he is independent of the DO, he is powerless without the DO.  When he is away of SG, he is weakened, in that either he can't pull as much from the DO or he can't get anything and needs to go back and get recharged.  Moridin probably has the same problem: when he is farther away from SG he may be weaker in the TP but being human (sortof <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) he has other resources to draw on, while SH has only one place to draw his energy from.<br /><br />I've always thought that too much has been made of how SH wants to separate himself from the DO, &quot;That tie had to be severed somehow&quot;  I think it's a mark of his loyalty to the DO in that once the DO is free, he won't have to worry about going back to SG to recharge.  And so, one of his goals may be to destroy the remaining seals on the prison.<br /><br />One other thing, I think that since SH is drawing from the DO, he is absorbing things, such as knowledge of the past and the DO's point of view.  So when he remarks about Mesaana being wasteful, that's probably where he got it from.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Don't make SH angry, you wouldn't like it when he's angry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 15:24:28
subject: <b>has anyone read The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb?</b>
body:
If you have, do you remember when Fitz started to 'carry' Verity around with him after creating a touch-imposed Skill bond? What this involved was basically a small part of Verity's consciousness being 'inside' Fitz. When they wanted, and concentrated enough, they could see through each other's eyes, be aware of each other's thoughts and the feel of their bodies. Could it be possible that SH is like that to the DO? He contains a small part of the DO inside himself, and has been granted powers and privelages etc., but is not the DO himself. If this was the case, the DO would be aware of everything SH did, and could command him at any time, but wouldn't be directly touching the world.


created: 2004-04-19 02:00:10
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
if shaidar haran is just the &quot;avatar&quot;, or physical manifestation of the Dark One, then when he (it?) thinks about severing the tie to shayol ghul its just the dark one thinking about how annoying it is that his avatar has that weakness. although i think shaidar haran is a seperate being that is just completely loyal to the Dark One since the Dark One made him, kinda like after Graendal uses that massive Complusion on ppl all they want to do is please her.


created: 2004-08-05 17:18:34
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran : the Dark One's lap-dog</b>
body:
1) The DO says that the super-fade is his hand right. And then either SH or DO (sorry can't remember who) says something like &quot;my hand streches far&quot;, one could think that SH is literally how the DO touches the world.<br /><br />2) The reason that the DO didn't use SH in the AoL is because he thought he could trust the Forsaken to carry out his orders to the word. But as we know the Forsaken are allways fighting each other, so the DO creates SH to touch the world , and to keep the Forsaken in line.


created: 2004-10-25 16:48:21
subject: <b>Not an avitar</b>
body:
I interprate this line:<br />A sudden ache climbed the back of it's neck; a faint weakness washed along it's limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow.<br />To mean that SH is tied to the DO (well duh) and wishes to sever that tie, SH wants to become indepndant of the DO.


created: 2003-01-22 16:18:59
subject: <b>Manetheren?</b>
body:
I like the idea of him being king, and the parallell to the Eldar being the river, but no.<br />Manetheren was in this age. It will not be restarted again in this age. You have to wait seven turnings of the wheel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 16:33:53
subject: <b>Doubtful</b>
body:
Ummm maybe two/three bopoks left........so far only Two Rivers hoists Manetheren banners, and most dont truly know what it means. No where else has shown an interest at all, and bear in miind that Manetheren was vast.<br /><br />Also, Mat is on the run and has his plot line with Tuon to be resolved, and in all probability the rescue of Moiraine. Not to mention he'll end up with Rand soon - the flashes of colour that resolve into Rand's face and all. Now in this time scale, with this amount already going on, what are the chances that Mat wiol be crowned King of Manetheren? Or even that Faile will succeed to the throne of Saldaea? Not very likely.<br /><br />As far as I can see Perrin and Mat will not grow in social stature anymore, and if any knew monarchs are crowned it will be Rand/Elayne.<br /><br />The Red Eagle of Manetheren which Min saw is probably just a rfereance to the fact that the old blood flows strong in Mat.......possibly stronger than anyone. Even before he had the Shadar Logoth dagger/was cleansed of it/went through the doorway, Mat subconsciously knew more of the Old Tongue than any of the other Two Rivers people that we know (assuming the Old Blood runs particularly strong in the other Two Rivers main characters.........a reasonable assumption),l and was also a good fighter. And with the memories that Mat gained they are mostly from Manetheren, which also shows the connection. Basically the Red Eagle shows how strongly connected Mat is to Manetherne; not that he will rule a modern Manetheren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 17:37:24
subject: <b>Re: King Mat</b>
body:
Yep, I agree - this all makes sense.<br /><br />Besides, we've been told that every Queen of Manatheren has been an Aes Sedai and the King her Warder.  Now we know that Tuon can (learn to) channel.  It's not such a big jump to imagine that she might end up Aes Sedai and bonding Mat.<br /><br />Faile has given absolutely no indication of the ability to channel, so that wouldn't work for Perrin as King.


created: 2003-01-22 22:35:16
subject: <b>The Crystal Throne</b>
body:
I loved this theory BTW....<br /><br />Another thing worth mentioning is that Odin and his wife were the only two people allowed to sit on the Hlidskialf, the throne of Asgard.  From there, they would look over their lands to the south and to the west.  <br /><br />Could that be the Crystal Throne?  We haven't seen it yet though in the series so far.  <br /><br />Let's just hope Mat isn't too much like Odin, because Odin was killed by Fenrir (the same beast that took Tyr's hand) at Ragnarok(the last battle).<br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 23:00:36
subject: <b>Old Theory</b>
body:
There was a theory a while back that Mat was originally supposed to be the last King of Manetheren reborn, and then RJ changed his mind later on and changed it. If this is true it might explain the vision as simply an error. Wouldn't be the first, especially that early in the series. Otherwise I'd have to say that given the current pace of the books and how muh Mat has to do (lose an eye, save a dead lady, get Tuon to TV, invent the cannon) I just don't think he has enough time to resurrect a nation, especially as the heartland (including Gheldan, not just the Two Rivers) is bound to Perrin. I'm no longer sure if even Perrin will become King of a New Manetheren, especially if he doesn't get a move on against the Shaido<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 01:25:40
subject: <b>WOW!</b>
body:
I just love when people bring in this old school myth! The nature of the story is to make a history of our myths after all, as well as putting our history and making it their myths. Thus the whole wheel of time thing (history repeats). All nonfiction mind, just to stop the naysayers, but you may be onto something. Another point brought up by Rands Severed Hand , that I too believe in: <br /><br />&quot;Let's just hope Mat isn't too much like Odin, because Odin was killed by Fenrir (the same beast that took Tyr's hand) at Ragnarok(the last battle).&quot;  <br /><br />*cough* *cough* *Fain!* *cough*<br /><br />This is something that my older bro (who I turned on to the series) suggested. Who is everybody&#8217;s favorite char? Mat! Well not everybody, but stay with me. Who would be most dramatic to die in the last battle? Mat! My bro suggested this to me, and at first I didn't believe it (my bro doesn't post here or any WoT site btw, not that that means anything) but still, he has a &quot;feeling&quot; that our protector, Mat, the beloved trickster, will die in the last battle. Just think about it, the drama! Rand will live, that has already been given to us (to live you must die), but I am really starting to think that Mat is a goner. Don't shed a tear for him, he will do it with the style and class that we love Mat for. Fare thee well protector! May the dead live on, in the thoughts of the girls that remember him&#8230;<br /><br />Thumbs way up! I can't get enough of this old mythology! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 09:20:00
subject: <b>yes it was....</b>
body:
Manetheren was indeed quite vast. Well I think before the last battle Rand will have to unite all the nations into a super nation. What better super nation then Manetheren? And who better to rule for Rand than Mat? One of the few people he can trust?


created: 2003-01-23 16:07:19
subject: <b>Nay nay nay</b>
body:
I doubt that Saldea will remain that strategically important after TG because there simply will be no more Blight to threaten the Northern parts of civilisation. So Marshal General to Faile is simply not important enough for Perrin. Besides, there is still the hawk around him in Min&#180;s vision...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 16:09:26
subject: <b>Why Mat will be King.</b>
body:
The following facts are being forgotten.<br />Murandy was part of Manetherin.<br />Where is the band of the Red Hand? Murandy.<br />Where is Mat heading? Murandy.<br /><br />While most people assume that Mat is going to use this army to help Egwene out, which he might very well do, i think that while there the Murandian nobles will be united under him, and their King in gratitude and because of his ta'avereness will swear fealty to mat, much like the Queen of Gaeldan did to Perrin. I'm not sure how it's going to happen but Perrin's two rivers forces and Ghaeldaen forces will swear to Mat as well. Perrin of the broken crown is going to lose a lot of his authority, the two rivers folk are distrusting him, and the Ghaeldeans are almost ready to split. I think Perrin will remain lord of the two rivers. But there's a great deal of territory out their like Baerlon, that are less under his control etc.<br />I think Mat will become the King of Manaetherin.


created: 2003-01-23 16:29:58
subject: <b>Something overlooked</b>
body:
You said that Perrin being King of Manetheren and Faile being Queen of Saeldaea wouldn't work, but Rand is already king of Illian(something that I think many people have forgotten) and Elayne will be the Queen of Cairhein at least. There will be plenty of Asha'man/Aes Sedai to be advisors and stuff afterwards, so the fact that both Rand and Elayne can channel makes almost no difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 18:36:19
subject: <b>Nail on the Head</b>
body:
Well done!  this theory is extremely viable now that we are aware of Rand making moves to talk with the Seachan (Sourth).  Also, the idea of Perrin sticking around in Mantherean (sp?) while Faile is in Saledea doesn't make sense either.  So very well done, now as for the betrayal that I'll leave as a RAFO.


created: 2003-01-23 21:01:49
subject: <b>Previous Theory</b>
body:
There was an earlier post about Mat being the last King of Manetheran - this comes from his pre-Fox memory (TDR) of having a bannerman with the Red Eagle whilst other Lords had their own personal banners - and shouting &quot;Manetheran&quot; on its own. i.e. not for 'Manetheran and King or Queen such and such'<br /><br />PS: Murandy was not part of Manetheran but Nth Altara is  which is where Mat &amp; Perrin are going to meet if Perrin keeps going south-east and Mat follows the Lugard Road.<br /><br />Lots of if's<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-23 21:03:18
subject: <b>Part 2</b>
body:
Sorry that should say Nth Altara was part of Manetheran  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-23 21:41:17
subject: <b>I Like it...for the most part</b>
body:
I'm a big fan of something really cool happening to the best character in The Wheel of Time(IMHO), plus I've really wondered for quite a while just what Mat was going to do when everything ended.  Sure, he's going to marry TDoTNM, but that doesn't exactly present him with the great power that I think he should have.  The other things (love that Norse mythology) really bolster this theory up to stand against the nay sayers fairly well.  Great Theory!


created: 2003-01-23 21:42:41
subject: <b>the party empire!</b>
body:
I reckon mat will end up ruling Illian, Ebou Dar parts of amadica and Murandy. Perrin will get Gheldan, parts of Andor and Saldea. <br /><br />Why will Mat rule these lands. Well Illian because of the Horn (Moiraine once said Illian will follow Rand if he has the Horn.) Because he spent so much time in Ebou Dar. And I agree with Resoluteeyes about Murandy. A few more pointS on Murandy... Mat has wanted to hang out in Lugard since FOH and Rhodan has been described as a bit like Mat. He will probably win the nation in a game of dice.<br /><br />Oh... Havent read CoT yet (I'm in Australia) but it is interesting to read that those colours in his head have now become Rands face. I WROTE ABOUT FIFTY THEORIES SAYING THAT WOULD HAPPEN AND WOTMANIA NEVER PUT THEM IN. BASTARDS!!!


created: 2003-01-24 10:50:28
subject: <b>Yea Yea Yea</b>
body:
To Llaydwhonn Gaidin: Even if the Blight cease to exist after Tarmon Gai'don, it would remain important. Throughout the series, Saldaean merchants has been cited, and Saldaea as a nation is as large as Kandor and Shienar together, at least. Furthermore, there's that very important mystery about &quot;the Broken Crown.&quot; That hawk in Min's vision? It's generally accepted to mean Berelain throwing herself at Perrin.<br /><br />To resoluteeyes: Under the Compact of the Ten Nations, Murandy was part of Coremanda and Eharon, thereby not part of Manetheren. Refer to the Guide for the maps.<br /><br />To the Blademaster: Elayne being queen of Cairhien would work. Andor shares a direct border with Cairhien and Cairhien is easily reachable by river and road through Aringill. Whereas Saldaea is very far from the Two Rivers, nearly beyond the Mountains of Mist and separate by a vary large stretch of uninhabited wild land. If a Two Rivers man wanted to go to Maradon, Saldaea, he either has to hail a boat on the River Arinelle in Whitebridge or take the road to Caemlyn, then go to Tar Valon and thence to Maradon. Too much trouble for a kingdom. Logistics preclude any possibility of Manetheren and Saldaea uniting. As for Rand being king of Illian, that is logistically possible due to the fact Rand had control of Tear and Andor, both of which share borders with Illian.<br /><br />And Murandy? We have no idea as to what will happen to it. It may be very important: Perrin is moving through North Altara towards it; Mat and gang are going to Lugard; the Band of the Red Hand is in Murandy; the Borderland armies and the armies of Andoran Houses are directly north of Murandy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 16:28:00
subject: <b>Mythlover</b>
body:
well, that was a intersting one! i have read a lot of hindu mythos but never have i found this one good job, Gaeran!<br /><br />and yeah, i totally agree with you that this closely parallels with Mat's fath to marry the DotNM.<br /><br />but, unfortunely, you miss some things in your theorie, like the reference you draw between Perrin and Tor and Mat and Loke. <br /><br />But before I begin: this is by no means a criticism or a assault on you, Gaeran, I jus' want to point out some things that i think is more correct:<br /><br />first thing first: over the course i have read this books, i have always pictured Rand as a more fitting candidate to fill the Tor role. Sure, some things with Tor are closely mirrored in Perrin's character (like close relationship with the common man and his farming). <br />But the rest of Tor are found in (at least i think so)Rand. <br />First: the name al'thor. thor=tor/thor.<br />Second: Tor was the protector of gods and man against the evil giants that lived (not sure) in the far north. this is surely a reference to the Dragon character being the protector of mankind.<br />third: with his magic hammer, Mj&#246;lner, Tor storm into battle with the giants. He crushed them by throwing it against them, and every time the hammer returned to his hand (kinda like a boomerang!). i don't know about you guys, but i thing this is kinda like Rand's magical ability (throw lightning and stuff like that)<br />fourth: in the late viking period Tor got promoted by the people and was regarded as the king of gods.<br />there are some more similaritets but this post already getting to long, so lets move on to Mat and Loke...<br /><br />Loke was - as many of you already know - the trixter god of the norse panthoen. this type of mythic character is often pretty complex and Loke in no way a exception. Please hear me out:<br />For what i can see the Loke character (that is sometimes very complex...) had been split into 2 - or 3 - WOT character: Matrim, Lanfear - and, if 3: some other forsaken. <br />Mat is Loke for his personality as a trickster and, more importely, the servant of Tor, aka Rand. This also closely fit with the Monkey King reference: Hanuman being the servant of Rama, one of Vishnu's avatars, and Rand has surely many traits from the protector Vishnu (the god stepped down to earth in various avatars to save mankind from various evil demons).<br />Lanfear is Loke (this one has surely been brought up earlier) because of her relationship with Lews therin and Rand, both aka Oden (the wizard king that ruled the world).<br />in norse myth Loke(Lanfear) had a homosexual relationship with Oden(lews therin) before the wizard was married with Frigg(Ileyna). <br />and futher Loke was also the one that destroyed the world order by fooling the blind god H&#246;der so that he killed his brother Balder. Futher, Balder was not just the most loved of the gods, but also the god of light, joy, purity, innocence and beauty. if we now can connect Balder's trait to the AoL we get a pretty good reference: Lanfear breaking Shai'tan's prison and thus destroys the Utopia-like world that AoL was. <br />the third character that shares traits from Loke is one of the evil guys; either Shai'tan or the forsakens. chech this out:<br />it's said that after Balder was killed, the rest of the gods captured Loke and bound him under in a deep cave, in which he would stay until Ragnar&#246;k; the final battle between the gods and all the evil creaturs. <br />As I point out earlier this can be a reference to Lanfear, but it can also be a reference to almost any other forsaken.<br /><br />Well, that's it!<br />That was everything from me guys! <br />Hope i didn't forget anything, and please excuse for my - sometimes - poor english.


created: 2003-01-24 21:50:16
subject: <b>Sorry, time to be arsey...</b>
body:
1) The Saldean queen is fairly young, safely in the south, and her heir is Bashere, who also doesn't look like dying amy time soon. Only after he's dead does Perrin inherit. It's doesn't really look as though being king of Saldea is going to be a problem for Perrin 'I only care about my wife and I'll cut your hand off' Golden Eyes any time soon.<br /><br />2) There is no indication that Mat will be King of the South in the books. In fact it all points to him going north (Tower of G, Egwene's dreams indicating a member of the Seanchean imperial family will play some part in rescuing her). The Band may be in Murandy, but don't forget why; to allow the current king to forge a nation by apparently being a threat. This is no indication that Mat will become king of Murandy. More likely that he will simply pick them up on the way.<br /><br />In conclusion: Mat will not become king of Manetheren<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-25 07:03:32
subject: <b>Questions</b>
body:
You said an eye on a balance scale, and a laughing face in Mat's aura were allready addressed. Where did that happen and what did they mean?


created: 2003-01-26 19:50:31
subject: <b>Balance of Laughter</b>
body:
Zoot132, I didn't say the laughing face and eye on a balance happened. I said that we know what they mean (presumably): Mat being a trickster (laughing face); and Mat gambling and giving up an eye (eye on a balance) to fulfill the Aelfinn's prophecy that he will give up half the light of the world to save the world (which hasn't happened yet...read carefully, RJ is VERY Aes Sedai in his writing).<br /><br />Random Monkey, while Bashere is the heir to the Saldaean throne, Faile is next in line; and Mat may later go on to Tar Valon through Murandy, my theory concerns a time AFTER Tarmon Gai'don. The only indication of Mat's connection with Manetheren (as far as I can see) is that red eagle in Min's viewing. Other than that, we can only make do with theorizing and being arsey about that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Mythlover, I've always thought of Perrin as Thor rather than Rand. That description of Thor's hammer sounds more like Perrin being a blacksmith (which he was before the troubles with the Dragon Reborn happened). While no ONE mythical person is a basis for Rand, Tyr sounds more like Rand than the other Norse gods. As for Lanfear being Loki, that is an original idea! Could Baldur be Beidomon and the Sharom be like the Bifrost bridge to Asgard? Baldur was gatekeeper of Bifrost and his death enabled enemies to assail Bifrost and bring on Ragnarok.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 21:45:51
subject: <b>Gaeran...</b>
body:
So what you're saying is that Mat will, in the course of his duties, be drawn ever further north, presumably all the way to the pit itself (or near enough, after all tGH suggests he has to be close in order for the horn to work properley). Then, after the last battle, if he even survives, he is somehow going to go back south and claim a kingdom which, if it's going to coalesce around anyone, appears to be doing so around Perrin. Seem a little implausible, though I do respect your work in bringing in background information. I just don't think that we can always expect all aspects of these myths to appear in the books. <br /><br />Only thing I can think of is if Rand breaks the world again and Mat ends up as some kind of warrior king, carving out a patch of ground for his remenant of humanity. Doesn't really seem in keeping with the tone of the book, but you have to admit, it would be damn good (&amp; very unexpected).<br /><br />Also, and this is just me thinking out load, not any kind of pre-thoughout theory, does the laughing face definitly refer to Mat being a trickster. Doesn't quite seem appropriate and often Min's visions seem to be a little more explicit, relating to particular events. I could of course be completely wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 23:18:25
subject: <b>King Aemon reborn!</b>
body:
Mat is King Aemon reborn.  Which doesn't mean I think he will be future king.  Whether or not he will be king of Manetheren or if Manetheren will return is yet to be seen.  <br /><br />I like your theory!  It has a chance.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-27 03:49:53
subject: <b>Umm... Gaeran...</b>
body:
Balder is NOT the keeper of Bifrost!<br />Instead, it was Heimdall's(whose assocation with Gjallarhorn<br />is pretty much mirrored in the Matrim-character) job to keep an eye on the bridge, so that no evil could slip into the halls of the gods.<br /><br />And, again, i agree with you that Tor shares SOME traits with Perrin, but i still thinks that Rand is more like that Norse thundergod.<br /><br />Also, i'm 101 procent follower of the &quot;Ishamael being the son of Lews therin&quot;-theory!!<br /><br />See yo, guys!!


created: 2003-01-27 17:14:04
subject: <b>Ishy is Lews's son?</b>
body:
Guess I must have missed that one...are you sure? Well I never.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 03:56:44
subject: <b>well, it's just a theory...</b>
body:
well, Ishy being the lost son of lews therin is just a theory with no real back-up in the books. it's in the myth i had read that i have found some bits and pieces that may show that Ishy is really the bastard son of Lews therin and Meirin/Lanfear(also, i think the theory is such a huge thing!!)<br /><br />Some of the bits an' pieces:<br />First: If you're familiar with the arthur stories you have surely encounter the evil character Mordred(Moridin?); the bastard son of Arthur. In the battle at Camlaan(?) the father and son fought eachother. the result was Mordred's death and arthur being carried away to the island of Avalon, where he could be healed.<br /><br />Second: see the theory post &quot;intersting note about Ishamael&quot;<br /><br />Third: greek myths<br />Kronos:Lews therin/rand(trying to kill their child, great ruler of heaven before banished and defeated by their son)<br />Zeus:Ishamael(kills his father when he was old enought to challenge him, presidents from the top of a high mountain)<br />Rhea:Lanfear(protects her child from the father, moon as symbol)<br /><br />these 3 are only some of the &quot;father vs. son&quot; things in the myths, but i really have to stop, 'cause my lecture starts now/soon!<br /><br />Bye, bye!


created: 2003-01-28 11:24:36
subject: <b>King Mat (AEMON)</b>
body:
I posted a theory a while back (under another name lytjan13) about why Mat is King Aemon reborn and used the red eagle in Min's visions to help with that so it will take a lot more than this theory to prove to me that he isnt and that he will lead Manetheren. He has his hands full with Tuon how hard is he gonna find convincing the Empress that he needs to be married to Tuon and that the Seanchan need to fight FOR Rand not against him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-03 14:49:14
subject: <b>The red eagle is probably explained later in EotW...</b>
body:
... when the Two Rivers folk are chased by Trollocs and Myrddral (between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth).<br />When they are attacked, Mat uses an old Manetheren battle-cry, which Moiraine explains probably is because he has a lot of Manetheren blood in his veins.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 17:56:07
subject: <b>Loki, Aginor and cross breeding</b>
body:
A Loki-Aginor comparison. <br />Loki was the father of Fenrir, Jormungand (the great serpent) and Hel the godess of death.<br />He also gave birth to Sleipner when he had assumed the shape of a mare.<br />Aginor created Trollocs, Myrddraal, Jumaras and so on.<br /><br />They both &quot;produced&quot; strange creatures although their methods differed.<br />I just can't picture Aginor doing the dirty with a female trolloc. =)<br />A bit far-fetched perhaps, but even so...<br />


created: 2005-06-30 19:40:41
subject: <b>Just a few things....</b>
body:
TO WINDSOR:<br />Actually, I think it's the opposite... Think about it. Mat keeps going on about how EVERY hero ends up dying tragically sooner or later. If he dies in the Last Battle, that will have made him right all along! Oh, the horrors! He'll be able to say &quot;I told you so!&quot; We'll never hear the end of it! No, much more likely that he's wrong.<br /><br />And on a side note, you're forgetting that Mat is the ONLY mainlander with so strong a connection to the Seanchan. Alliances can be trashed, promises broken, treaties forgotten, and writs ignored. Although it's not like everybody will run through meadows and chase butterflies, there will still be peace of a sort. And Mat's marriage to Tuon is the ONLY thing that can ENSURE that peace, between Seanchan and mainlands. They're falling in love as it is, they're going to be bound in marriage, and they are both going to be supreme sovereigns in their nations. Mat needs to stay married to Tuon in order for everything to work out.<br /><br />And plus, Mat is the only person in the series who has anything left for him after the Last Battle. He has a son (sort of) and he's getting a wife. And then there's trading horses. No! Listen! I always thought it was sort of weird that Mat, Tuon, AND Olver all like horses. But think! It's a common enjoyment that runs between ALL of them that has NOTHING to do with the Last Battle. Perrin has Faile, but they have no common interests except for working towards the Last Battle. She keeps telling him to win glory, pressing him into fighting, scorning his love of a blacksmith's life... what is there for them in a world of peace? She's a greedy little bugger who always wants more, more, more. But Mat and his family (of a sort, since Tuon isn't his wife yet and Olver isn't really his son) actually has something...well...PEACEFUL that they all enjoy. And plus he's the only one who still has a strong connection to his family. He has a mother, father, and two sisters who we all know and whom he still thinks about. We don't even know who Egwene's supposed sisters are, Perrin's family is dead, Lord knows what's up with Nynaeve's, and Rand just has his foster father.<br /><br />No, no, no, I think that if ANYBODY lives a happily ever after, it will be Mat. (Come on. The one character who is so opposed to marriage is NOT going to get off the hook so easily as that.)


