# w_comment

created: 2003-02-22 15:06:22
subject: <b>I found another interesting passage</b>
body:
A dream from EotW, ch.24. pg.351/352: <br /><br />&quot;He [Rand] found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging (!). He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.&quot;<br /><br />Of course Moridin has another face but the person is the same: Ishamael. This merging-dream could at least be some foreshadowing.


created: 2003-02-22 16:28:37
subject: <b>What if....</b>
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Ahhhh! More crazy thoughts, I can't stop!  In Perrin and Min's beggar viewings, wouldn't the bandage over Rand's eyes (ala the Fisher piece) be needed because of Moridin causing Rand to use a large amount of the True Power?  The Saa would give his eyes some problems wouldn't they?  Somebody posted a theory here a month or two ago which sounded reasonable about the True Power destroying a person's eyes.  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 18:37:42
subject: <b>Dissent</b>
body:
This is a great discussion, and everyone is bringing up excellent points, but I'm still cautious for a couple of reasons.  Let me start with a quote of my own from ch 41 of tGH:<br /><br />     Rand glanced at the door, but he made no move except to sit up on the side of the bed.  What good to try running from the Dark One?  His throat felt like sand.  &quot;I am not the Dragon, Father of Lies!&quot; he said hoarsely.<br />     The darkness behind Ba'alzamon roiled and furnaces roared as Ba'alzamon laughed.  &quot;You honor me.  And belittle yourself.  I know you too well.  I have faced you a thousand times.  A thousand times a thousand.  I know you to your miserable soul, Lews Therin Kinslayer.&quot;  He laughed again; Rand put a hand in front of his face against the heat of that fiery mouth.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that I've read this arguments somewhere, but it's not on Bad Ash's blackboard either, so I thought I'd go for it here.  If Moridin is Ishy, and Moridin merges with Rand they would need to split at some point to face each other again.  Thousands and thousands implies they meet frequently through the ages, although there is a good counter-argument for this. Also, does Ish, Mor, and Ba'al represent a distinct trinity?  If so Rand should certainly have one more personality, too.<br /><br />Etzel's scene was really interesting, but Ba'al was searching for and trying to destroy Rand's hiding spot in his dream(T'a'r?).  I think the description is more about Rand's reaction to something he couldn't yet understand.  Also Ba'al hadn't figured out which ta'veren was the Dragon at this point.<br /><br />When I read Jim's quote the tone doesn't seem right.  It seems wistful and fatalistic, but hopeful at the same time.  I think the speaker WOULD weep for the dying worlds.  I wouldn't acribe any of these qualities to Moridin or Ishmael. [Maybe best quote of CoT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />]<br /><br />As for the Hindu trinity that Rands Severed Hand mentioned, I agree that the Dragon archetype is based on this, at least in part.  However, Shiva does not destroy for the purpose of Destruction alone, but is like the forest fire in the woods.  He kills so that new life can abound.  He is also associated with the cycle of mankind perpetuating itself through birth, life and death.  Again I don't believe these characteristics apply to Moridin.  With this in mind I would argue that Rand represents the Creator, and LTT the Destroyer.  Here's a link to a page about Shiva, and a site on the Hindu trinity:<br /><br />http://www.webonautics.com/mythology/destroyer.html<br /><br />I have to say that I'm still not convinced either way, but with all the good pro arguments, I wanted to provide some dissent.  Awesome discussion, everyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 19:47:59
subject: <b>No, you missed it</b>
body:
You see, Although Rand and Lews Therin are already together, we can really see even from book nine that they are really merging this time. Before It was a struggle for control, and Rand won the struggle when Morraine died. But now Rand tugs on his earlobe, is an expert artist, yada yada yada. He's actually merging this time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dont forget :  theres WoT erotica somewhere.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 20:25:37
subject: <b>Rand &amp; Ishy</b>
body:
To Silent Creator, <br />It's always possible it's him and Lews merging, and there are a number of theories for it on the post, but Jordan has obviously used some &quot;David Blaine&quot; style misdirection before. We think it's going to go one way and it goes another because we weren't looking hard enough.  Do you remember Egwene's dream of Rand from tPoD that goes <i>&quot;Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. &quot;</i>  I think that may be another clue that it's not just Lews Therin who has become a part of Rand.  It also points out that eventually this out of control Age of Legends keg party that's going on in his head will finally be busted up by the cops, so to speak.  <br /><br />To Diomedes, you had some good points, but I think Jim was right.  Ishamael wrote most of his philosophical books before turning to the shadow.  The Forsaken are really still the same people that they were before turning to the shadow also.  Their thoughts are going to basically be the same as before, only their purpose in life has been altered.  Alot of them such as Semi were assets to society who had a dark, vindictive side that none knew of.  <br /><br /><b>Also, does Ish, Mor, and Ba'al represent a distinct trinity? If so Rand should certainly have one more personality, too.</b><br /><br />By those standards, wouldn't it be Lews Therin, Rand, Creator to match the order you laid down?  Ba'al was the DO.  Ishy just called himself that to frighten, didn't he?  <br /><br />Thanks for the info on the Blessed Trinity.  I have to admit I only knew a few vague things about it.  Just some of the basics.  <br /><br />Ahhh, to Aielyn, Min's theory mentioned one man will live and one will die.  It seems even if one dies it won't effect the other.  I'll bet Rand dies from all the quotes in the books.  I'm also betting Moridin/Ishy will make it through this whole thing even if he is killed at the last battle by Rand.  Probably no balefire for him.  If this constant battle is to continue as Ishy says it always has, that's probably how it has to be. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> This has brought about some damn good discussion.<br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 23:14:18
subject: <b>what??</b>
body:
Theres no unholy trinity.. You ppl mistake Ishy/Ba'alMoridin for 3 ppl.. it's just how his body hanged over time.. Ishy pre True Power Decay .. Ba'al is him after the True Power decay.. and Moridin is his new body/name..  <br /><br />Notice they all Still the same person and don't CO EXIST at ANY time.. Any Diovine Trinity i can think of Co Exist..they're not just 1 guy who calls him self different names as his body changes..


created: 2003-02-23 13:36:01
subject: <b>The setting</b>
body:
I wanted to add one more thought that I had regarding this.  Should Mashadar factor into this theory somewhere?  The beams touched each other while they were attacking Mashadar, after all.  Perhaps it's understood that the fog in the area had been destroyed, but there isn't a real clear indication in the text.  What I'm trying to say is would the effects have been the same if the same sequence of events had happened in another setting?<br /><br />I also noticed the last time I read the description of the beams touching that it is strikingly similiar to a closed electrical circuit.  One final thing that may, or may not, have some bearing: In tDR Rand deflects an attack of balefire from Ishy with Callandor. Even if that last doesn't matter here, it's an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  I can't think of any other example where someone deflects or blocks balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 02:55:13
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
First to Rands Severd Hands comment on rand wearing several different masks have you ever heard of symbolism. They represent him pretending to be someone else and that if he does it too long he will lose his own personality. <br /><br />And just wondering can anyone give a good reason why moridin would want to &quot;link&quot; with Rand give a good explanation of why the nature of balefire/the one power would have these effects citing examples from similar situations. <br /><br />I don't know. This theory is based upon that rand was able to regonize a face slightly and that he's clearly seen moridins face, but rand has clearly seen alot of faces or could regonize one of the countless faces he's seen in his past life. Proving that he knows moridins face, does not even come close to proving that a blury face he slightly regonizes later has to be moridins. Whithout evidence that having moridin in rands head has effected ANYTHING or providing similar situations where two channelers have linked when both channeled I just cannot belive this theory. This theory is sketchy at best.<br /><br />P.S. How does having Moridin in Rands head provide for trinity?


created: 2003-02-24 12:36:58
subject: <b>I don't know if it's true....</b>
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But I like this theory, either way. It's interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 18:47:14
subject: <b>&quot;Fight Club&quot; in WOT</b>
body:
This is a great theory and one I had either missed in discussion or just BAMF(Before Angus MacFatty).<br /><br />I would go further to say that they may very well co-inhabit the same body now.  <br /><br />Does any one ever see the two of them together?<br /><br />Does Moridin look like Brad Pitt?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 18:53:01
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
<b>First to Rands Severd Hands comment on rand wearing several different masks have you ever heard of symbolism. They represent him pretending to be someone else and that if he does it too long he will lose his own personality. </b><br />&lt;sigh&gt; okay....&lt;/sigh&gt; I know what symbolism is.  Isn't saying that Rand wearing masks = with Rand being controlled by different people also symbolism?  The only way for an answer like that to not be symbolism would be if I said Rand was going to literally have a Halloween or Mardi Gras party with his buddies.    <br /><br /><b>And just wondering can anyone give a good reason why moridin would want to &quot;link&quot; with Rand give a good explanation of why the nature of balefire/the one power would have these effects citing examples from similar situations. </b><br /><br />From the guide page 51 &quot;<i>During the war, he fought as hard to turn Lews Therin to the side of the Shadow as he did to defeat him</i>.&quot;  That seems like a pretty good reason to me.  It's just like the sha'rah game, he wants to control the Fisher piece too.  <br /><br />Let's examine the balefire situation here:<br />1) Balefire represents a Power wrought ability to burn a thread from the pattern.<br />2) Rand uses a One Power balefire.<br />3) Moridin uses a True Power balefire.<br /><br />When you are using the One Power or True Power, is it a part of your thread on the pattern? Is so, if you balefire a stream of balefire, wouldn't that burn a part of your thread and the other person's thread?  That is where I say the two threads (Rand and Moridin) simply stuck (or got burned) together.  The two threads were burning a part of each other, and they simply stuck together like two marshmallows on a hot fire.  <br /><br /><b>I don't know. This theory is based upon that rand was able to regonize a face slightly and that he's clearly seen moridins face, but rand has clearly seen alot of faces or could regonize one of the countless faces he's seen in his past life. Proving that he knows moridins face, does not even come close to proving that a blury face he slightly regonizes later has to be moridins. Whithout evidence that having moridin in rands head has effected ANYTHING or providing similar situations where two channelers have linked when both channeled I just cannot belive this theory. This theory is sketchy at best.</b><br /><br />I don't know for sure, alot of it is a RAFO. I think the strongest evidence I laid out had to do with Min's viewing and the incident at the end of Crown of Swords.  The rest is just a best guess to connect all the recent face stuff to the conclusion of aCoS.  <br /><br /><b>P.S. How does having Moridin in Rands head provide for trinity? </b><br /><br />Three people = Rand, Lews Therin, Moridin.   Jordan likes his magic numbers (3, 7, 9, 13), and his mythologies/ideologies/religions (Christianity, Hinduism, etc).<br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-28 15:15:46
subject: <b>Rand's Dizziness</b>
body:
Well, we can never really be sure what of Rand's sickness and dizziness is from channelling sadin and how much (if any)comes from the SL run in with Moridin. Just a few quick things I thought I would mention, since I hadn't seen them on this thread. <br /><br />1) It has been pointed out that none of the other Asha'man apparently having any troubling grasping saidin, or at least do not seem dizzy or anything. It is true that we know that Asha'man like to hold te power whenever they can, some even refusing to go into a stedding because of it. But still, even with those guys holding saidin all the time, Rand holds it a lot too, at least in the early books before he gets sick. Also since Rand is much much more powerful than most Asha'man, and considering some of the heavy battles he has been in so far, he has probably handled a lot more of the one power so far than the Asha'man. So he has also been exposed to more of the taint. It might just be this finally catching up with him, and didn't he say it had gotten worse since SL? He sure must have handled a lot of the taint then. Also, if he somehow channelled the taint out of saidin, maybe he ended up with some of it in him. I am not saying this is likely, but you just don't know with something like that. <br /><br />2)We haven't seen balefire hit balefire except in that one part of the story. We can tell it really messes up the two guys at the time though. What we do know about balefire is that it makes something cease to exist from before it even made contact. What would that do to a weave? If the balefire was strong enough, (we can assume these guys both made decently powerful balefire) what would happen if a weave ceased to exist before it was cast? That is sure a mess to think about. The balefire cancelled eachother out, therefore the balefire never existed to cancel eachother out. Sounds pretty messed up to me. <br /><br />I think this could have any number of effects towards Ishy being in Rand's head now too. Also, at this point would Rand even notice another presence in his head? <br /><br />I think the dizziness is more likely to be his channelling sickness though. Now that he has cleansed the source, he just need Nynaeve to heal his sickness. No problem right?<br />


created: 2003-04-28 13:10:15
subject: <b>I dont really believe this theory holds water...</b>
body:
But it has brought about some interesting discussions.<br /><br />I don't even know for sure that it was in fact Moridin that helped rand in Shadar Logoth.  I lean towards believing that more because there is no good evidence for it being anyone else than because there is solid proof that it was in fact Ishy/Moridin.<br /><br />Rand's sickness IMO comes not from any effect of merging balefire streams but simply from the evil contained behind Flinn's ward on his wounds.  Maybe actually being in Shadar Logoth somehow amplified the evil from Fains dagger wound.  This seems far more plausible that any theory that Moridin has somehow begun to merge with him....although why he would even be there to help him is a bit puzzling in and of itself.  Apparently the effort to keep him alive and turn him to the shadow hasn't been given up on entirely yet.<br /><br />Who that third face in Rand's head is remains a mystery to me....the idea of it being Moridin just rings hollow though as far as I'm concerned.  Not because I have evidence to the contrary but just because I have yet to see any real proofs to back it up that don't require a gigantic leap of faith.<br /><br />Time will tell and eventually all that is important shall be revealed I guess.  This is one of the only truly puzzling parts at the moment as I haven't a clue who that third persona might be.  Possibly yet another Dragon?  After all this fight has been going on for thousands of ages...Lews Therin was only the LAST Dragon...not all of them.


created: 2003-06-11 13:57:16
subject: <b>I don't buy it.</b>
body:
Some evidence you have profided, I am starting to believe Moridin as the mystery person who helps Rand, in fact, I wonder why the thought had not come to me in the past.  Anyhow, on your theory, it could work, but I myself would want more proof before I believe it.


created: 2003-06-24 21:41:26
subject: <b>i dont quite think so</b>
body:
I think the dizziness occurs because of the taint, reverberating off of the evil from Shadar logoth. The two evils were said to resonate. If one suddenly became more powerful, (im talking about both his wounds) then im sure he would notice in someway,,, as the two began to fight eachother more quickly. I don't like the bad guy being the third part of the trinity...especially when Moridin already has himself an established trinity. Also, trinities in many religions involve a first or second incarnation... just like moridin has had. <br /><br />I definitely agree that RAnd would have recognized Moridin or the other guy again if it was him. And LTT would have gone crazy. <br /><br />All that said... from the evidence you've given, i still think its a very plausible theory. Especially since part of it might have been planned by moridin.... i.e. &quot;you can't die yet, to many plans have been layed&quot; or something along those lines. <br /><br />I think most people agree that rand is merging with LTT which seems to satisfy the Min viewing.  As to the merging with Moridin, who can say?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 18:00:49
subject: <b>Bottom Line</b>
body:
The Bottom line is this:<br /><br />The central conflict of the Wheel of Time is set up in the first pages of the first book.  <br /><br />Lews v. Ishamael<br /><br /><br />Rand Al'Thor is the embodiment of this conflict.  It makes complete sense for Moridin/Ishy to be the third man.  <br /><br />Both sides have a hand on the fisher piece.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-04 22:21:40
subject: <b>your missing a crucial part</b>
body:
its a very nice theory except for the fact that if rand is having mordins thoughts inprinted in his mind then mordin would have rands thoughts also.  i come to this conclusion after thinking about the situation in which the crossing ocourred, it was a total accident.  since it was a total accident and we can't asume that the same is happening to mordin RJ would have written a short paragraph about mordin having the same problems in the head as rand.  and since this hasnt happened yet i would say that it wont. the last evidence is that we dont even know that it was mordin that helped rand. so there you go there are just to many loopholes for me and many others to believe your theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Books are the blessed chloroform of the mind <br />-Robert Chambert<br /><br />The only thing we have to fear is fear itself <br />-FDR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-26 09:19:42
subject: <b>I'm inclined to think</b>
body:
I'll start off with a few random comments, correct me if I'm wrong with some parts, I've occasionally confused some of the forsaken with each other:<br /><br />Surely the beams of balefire crossing has some significance? Perhaps something as mundane as being a cause for Rand's channeling sickness - in which case I'd have expected RJ to stress it a bit more. Yet, I'm inclined to think that something like this would be more important than just causing some disorientation problems (Ishy/Rand interact a lot).<br /><br />Strongest evidence that Moridin was indeed helping Rand is that Rand couldn't sense the other man channeling and hence the other man logically must have been using true power to which only Moridin has access.<br /><br />Why did Moridin look like Rand though? To my understanding (I can't verify this presently) he did even before the two crossed beams.<br /><br />Then to business:<br /><br />Although I don't believe there's sufficient evidence to believe that Moridin and Rand would have merged (in body), but there are some random bits of evidence that seems to support the notion. As was said, the two are not seen together and there IS a time when they should have been seen together - when Rand was cleansing the taint of saidin what did Moridin do? Nothing - he didn't even force Moghedien to join the fight which he clearly could have done with the soultrap(?).<br /><br />If we elaborate, the third voice that speaks in Rand's head would not necessarily be the present - day Ishamael. It could also be Ishy before he went loony - heck even before he turned to shadow. No real evidence to support this, just a thought.<br /><br />Following alludes to LoTR and comes with a spoiler warning:<br /><br />Does Ishy strike anyone as Sarumanesque? Once he was first among on the side of light but fell to the darkness due to his intimate knowledge of the shadow (Ishy as philosopher would know more about DO than anyone else and has repeatedly demonstrated this knowledge). But once Saruman fell Gandalf was forced to 'become' Saruman (not as Saruman was but as he _should_ have been - he even started to look like Saruman) - like LTT took Ishamael's place (and now for some reason the two seem to look alike?). Thought I'd bring this up though there might not be nothing much to it.


created: 2005-01-02 23:46:21
subject: <b>Two questions</b>
body:
First: If this is so, why does Lews Therin Telamon know about the third man, and Rand not?<br /><br />Second: Why haven't Moridin's thoughts, or anything about him except his face, entered Rand's mind?<br /><br />We do have other examples of images appearing to Rand al'Thor:  whenever he thinks of Perrin or Mat, for instance.  That appears to be merely a twist of the Pattern; perhaps in this case it is similar.


created: 2005-10-23 21:20:34
subject: <b>Answered by KoD.</b>
body:
I read, and found out.  Good one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Behold, my loyal armies...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 18:32:25
subject: <b>Not sure...</b>
body:
You dropped one important thing: I can&#171;t find a passage where other people in the camp complain about nightmares. How would you explain that? According to your argument, every single AS, Warder etc. should have headaches from Halima&#171;s presence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 19:40:14
subject: <b>Egwene's Dreams</b>
body:
Your theory is interesting, but I disagree; Egwene is one of the strongest dreamers since Corianin Nedeal, and she is also trained in T'A'R by the Aiel wiseones, the most proficient dreamwalkers in Randland.  Given Egwene's strength, training, and skill in Tel'aran'rhiod and dreaming, I really doubt she would be unaware of someone spying on her dreams.<br /><br />I do think it is possible Halima is trying (unsuccessfully) to spy on Egwene's dreams, or influence her dreaming, but is handcuffed because she can't alert Egwene to her presence, sort of like trying to break into a house without setting off the alarm.  ithink the headaches are a side effect of Halima's efforts, but not a sign of success.<br /><br />Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 19:41:14
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Sorry I dont have COT handy to give exact quotes.<br /><br />Egwenes headaches are caused directly by Halima channeling at her. When Egwene dismisses Halima, saying she wont need her tonight, Halima says something along the lines of &quot;are you sure?&quot;, then looks as though shes concentrating harder on Egwene. Egwene thinks to herself something like &quot;Right on que her headache appeared, but sent Halima away anyway&quot;. Halima then looks frustrated, but leaves anyway.<br /><br />Obviously Halima is channeling to cause Egwenes headaches to create a link to her, and since shes actually a guy no-one can sense it. The kicker is what if someone tests for resonance in Egwenes tent sometime?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Please Captain Feathersword, no more tickling&quot;<br />&quot;No more tickling Greg? well, we'll have to do a pirate dance then!&quot;<br />&quot;A pirate dance? Great idea Captain!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 21:50:58
subject: <b>I'd have to disagree as well.</b>
body:
<br />As mentioned in the above comment by Paskey01, the headaches are caused from Halima channeling Saidin at her. When Logain was in the rebel camp, Halima couldn't use Saidin as he would be found out by Logain. The headaches didn't start until logain was set free. Also, dreaming doesn't have anything to do with dreaming, so halima could have spied on Egwenes dreams while Logain was around without fear of getting caught.


created: 2003-02-24 22:11:59
subject: <b>Small disagreement</b>
body:
I agree with you that Halima is affecting Egwene's dreams and causing her headaches, however i believe the headaches are caused intentionally so Halima will have an excuse to be near Egwene.


created: 2003-02-24 22:38:43
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I was always under the assumption that the headaches were a part of Halima's channelling on Egwene.   RJ seems to make a few fairly subtle hints that Halima is attempting to use a form of compulsion to try and control Egwene.  I don't have my books in front of me, but there is a passage where Halima starts to massage Egwene's head and then all of a sudden Egwene starts to think to herself of how kind and nice halima is, and how she's just a simple earthy country woman etc etc<br /><br />


created: 2003-02-24 22:42:07
subject: <b>you are so wrong</b>
body:
halima helped push egwene in to releaseing logain so she could cause the headaches and try to get in good to learn info and also to control at the right moment and egwene also said somewhere that she doesn't ward her dreams because it stops them comeing or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Bringer of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 23:41:48
subject: <b>Another thing to consider</b>
body:
Egwene ponders at one point in CoT that either she's been unable to recall her dreams after Halima has done her massaging. The night that she took that tea her maid fixed up that cured her head ache she was able to recall her dreams. So it's implied that there's some channelling going on in the massagaing as well as them causing the headaches. Perhaps whatever it is that Halima is doing requires direct contact with Egwene, so the headaches are created as a means for Halima to get close enough to do her real work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 00:20:32
subject: <b>Moghedien's fault?</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Submitted by paskey01    on 2/24/2003 7:41:14 PM  <br />Egwenes headaches are caused directly by Halima channeling at her. </b></font><br /><br />This statement made a possible connection for me:  When Moggy was captive, the girls tried to get her to teach them how to detect Saidin being channeled.  Later, Moggy gloats, &quot;the only thing that technique does is give them headaches.&quot;<br /><br />Could Ewene's headaches be a side effect of Halima's channeling rather than an effect Halima intends?<br /><br />Actually, I kind of doubt this is the case.  I think Halima is directly causing the headaches because she's using Suggestion rather than Compulsion and only knows a weave that requires physical contact to accomplish.  Probably something similar to the Suggestion weave Verin uses on the captive AS to make them decide to swear fealty to Rand. <br /><br />(Note: I'm NOT implying that Verin learned the Suggestion weave from a Forsaken; her thoughts clearly indicate she developed it on her own.  Just that the form of Verin's weave is similar to wht Halima is using.)<br /><br />Halima's suggestions probably include forgetting any dreams that might expose her. This is why Egwene can't remember <i>some</i> of her dreams; those &quot;nightmares&quot; that reveal Halima's manipulation of her.<br /><br />The forsaken all have different levels of ability with Compulsion and other &quot;Talents.&quot;  I suspect that Halima is either very weak or very subtle in the use of Compulsion and Suggestion.<br /><br />Egwene's cature at the end of CoT is the best possible thing that could happen to her -- it gets her out from under Halima's thumb.  I think Egwene is going to realize that she's been acting irrationally and finally make the connection between Halima and her headaches in Book 11.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 00:54:54
subject: <b>Halima and Asha'man</b>
body:
If Egwene doesn't figure it out on her own, when the Aes Sedai start bringing in Asha'man to link with, they will.  The Asha'man will either discover Halima, or Halima will either stop channeling and go into deeper hiding, or she will break out of hiding by doing something huge.  Like trying to destroy the Tower.


created: 2003-02-25 07:23:36
subject: <b>Saidin induced pain</b>
body:
The headaches could be a result of a weave.  Remember when Semirhage was torturing the Warder?  She could stimulate the pain (or pleasure) centers of the brain.  I believe Halima is doing the same to Egwene to cause the headaches.  Halima, I believe, is then relieving or reducing the stimulation while she is massaging Egwene's head to make it seem that the massage is relieveing the pain.  Because Halima is using saidin, nobody is the wiser.  Of couse by being the only person that can relieve the headaches, Halima is able to be close the Egwene.


created: 2003-02-25 09:43:22
subject: <b>Nice theory,</b>
body:
but I disagree. I think AS ward their dreams because they don&#8217;t know enough about Dreaming. Egwene, a trained Dreamer, do not need this protection, and if she warded her dreams, how could the Wise Ones reach her if they needed to?


created: 2003-02-25 10:44:44
subject: <b>I also have to disagree.</b>
body:
I think Balthamel has more to learn from current happenings then from Egwene's dreams.<br />There was never a doubt that Saidin was the cause of her headaches.<br />I think Balthamel has more use of what the Hall is saying and what the rebels are planning and how it can be manupilated to his advantage.<br />The side effect of extracting the information from Egwene is probably her not remembering anything till she gets up.<br />Just like after Moggy used compulsion or whatever on Elayne and Nynaeve they did not remember anything.<br /><br />I doubt he cares about her dreams at this point.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 12:13:43
subject: <b>Halima and Egwene's Headaches</b>
body:
Good theory, the headaches are likely used firstly to get Halima close to Egwene.  She is the only one who can remove the pain and that makes her important to Egwene.  Without this halima is sust another sitters assistant.<br /><br />Getting close to Egwene would not really be enough though.  Egwene does not really discuss her business in front of Halima.  Granted Halima can use Saidan to listen in but she can do that anywhere in the camp.  Given the comments about dreams I would imagine that what ever Halima is doing to Egwene {aside from causing physical pain} is to open a crack in her defences.  Egwene could well shield her dreams like the Aes Sedai but as stated above one can break a ward.  The Wise Ones apparantly use a different menthod to shield their dreams but again if Halima can create a chink in Egwene's dream armour she can slip in.  This lets her watch Egwene's dreams and get some clue as to what Egwene is planning to do.  It also has the added bonus of allowing Halima to see Egwenes dreams of the future which he/she might be better able to interpret that Egwene and possibly block clues that she does not want Egwene to have.<br /><br />There are hints as well that control of a persons dreams allow someone to influence them when they were awake.  In the Big White Book there is a reference to one of forsaken  making people commit suicide becase of her dreams.  If that is true she cah influence Egwene on certain actions eg. retaking the Oaths.


created: 2003-02-25 15:26:07
subject: <b>Dual purpose</b>
body:
I think the headaches are an excuse to get near Egwene.  But I think they are also to try to prevent her being rested enough to Dream.  Halima does not want this young Amyrlin getting any more brilliant ideas from dreams.  (Likely thinking that is the source of her Amyrlin at war strategy.)<br /><br />This would also explain why Saidin was used to kill.  Halima does not want the Ashaman coming.  <br /><br />I wonder a bit about Nicola and Ariena (I know - spelling).  Did they catch Halima at something and try to blackmail him/her/it?  I have a feeling it all relates together somehow with Egwene's betrayal and capture.  I just have not solidified it yet.<br />


created: 2003-02-26 22:00:23
subject: <b>absolutely no evidence supplied</b>
body:
Basically, all the things that occurred to me while reading your &quot;theory&quot; have been said above. So I'll just reiterate for emphasis. I'm not saying Halima is NOT visiting Egwene's dreams - she might be, but none of what you enumerate as evidence proves this, and some actually goes against.<br /><br />You begin with saying &quot;The long held suspicion that these were being caused by Halima was confirmed for me in CoT. When Egwene started getting a headache immediately after telling Halima she had no time for a chat.&quot;<br />Obviously you don't believe a waking Halima immediately tried to intrude on a waking Egwne's dreams when that headache started. Nor do you believe that this particular attack of headache was just a general side effect of H's nightly intrusions - if you did, this episode would not be more proof to you than all the former allusions. Obviously, Halima makes the headaches by channeling, and it seems you do believe that yourself, yet try to make a theory to the contrary.<br /><br />Next, as pointed out above, the headaches started just after Logain left. An obvious indication of saidin; if they were not, Halima could have tried the dreaming business earlier.<br /><br />Finally, what you call &quot;the next piece of evidence&quot;, i.e. ppl in Forsaken-held cities having bad dreams, has nothing to do with our case. There, the Forsaken project their own dreams because they neglect shielding them. This is obviously not the case in the AS camp, and even if it was, it would have no connection to Egwene's headaches.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your words sing in my ears,<br />Redwood Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 05:25:04
subject: <b>I think you had much unimportant there</b>
body:
What matter does it have that Be`lal inflicted his dreams upon Tear? How, does that have anything to do with Egwene having headaches? Explain to me please... ok... so Halima makes these headaches when she enter Egwene`s dreams, but you dont help the theory at all by stating the last thing....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 10:46:04
subject: <b>Healing didn't work.....</b>
body:
i'm of the opinion that it must have been the channeling that caused the headaches. if it wasn't the channeling, but rather a side effect (ie. physical headache or dizzyness from tiredness, etc), how come the yellow ajah can't heal it? if i remember correctly, egwene had nisao or one of the yellow ajah Heal her a few times, but it was nothing compared to halima's massage. <br /><br />if saidin was involved, then it explains why nisao (or whoever it was) was unable to Heal her. if it was just from someone breaking into her dreams, i think that could have been easily Healed.<br /><br />just my humble opinions.


created: 2003-06-12 22:18:28
subject: <b>halima</b>
body:
It is my belief that Halima is channeling at Egwene, and her efforts definitely have something to do with her dreams, not just as an excuse to be near to her. <br />&quot;Before retiring, however, [Egwene] padded to the entrance and opened a small gap in the doorflaps. After a moment something moved in the shadows beside a tent across the way. It looked like a woman.&quot; (p. 229-Unseen Eyes-CoS)<br />I'm not saying that this is proof of anything, but following a trip to TAR, Egwene has more nightmares. Make of it what you will, but i believe that was Halima.


created: 2004-07-23 05:33:48
subject: <b>I gree with the nightmares but ..........</b>
body:
I gree with the nightmares but the headache is not from the breaking through the ward ... when egweene said that she have no time for chat ... she receive a headache from halima .... but ... n that time .. her dreams wasnt warded ? .... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-10-19 22:02:25
subject: <b>Good theory, poorly put together</b>
body:
To those people flaming this theory, I agree that it wasn't put together very well.  The poster left out crucial data and stuck in stuff that wasn't necessary.  However, I agree with the overall conclusion.<br /><br />It should be obvious to everyone that Halima is mucking about with Egwene's dreams.  First off, Egwene is a trained Dreamwalker.  Dreamwalkers do not shield their dreams.  They have no need to.  In ACoS, Egwene communicates with Amys via Dreamwalking, and there is no shield.  Furthermore, Amys responds directly to Egwene, &quot;We will come.&quot;  This shows that Dreamwalkers have full awareness in their dreams.  If Halima was spying directly on Egwene, she would know.  No, Halima has to come at her through a different way...<br /><br />As a Dreamwalker, Egwene has the ability to remember each and every one of her dreams.  Even the ones that aren't prophetic.  However, in PoD and CoT, she can't remember any of them but nightmares.  This should be proof in and of itself that Halima is messing with Egwene's dreams.<br /><br />Also, that quote from PoD, when Halima was thinking idly about &quot;tonight's dreams&quot;.  This quote shows that Halima is probably able to look at and report to the Shadow Egwene's dreams as she is erasing them from Egwene's head.<br /><br />Think about it.  Way back in TGH, Ishy comments on Egwene:  &quot;The girl who tries to watch over you.  A poor guardian and weak, Kinslayer.  If she had a lifetime to grow, she would never grow strong enough for you to hide behind.&quot;  (TGH, paperback ed., p 242)  Never strong enough for Rand to hide behind, yes, but strong enough to alter events through prophetic Dreaming?  Since Halima is directly under Moridin/Ishy's control, it's only natural to say that one of Halima's (or rather, Moridin's) goals in the SAS camp is to stop Egwene from Dreaming.<br /><br />But, you say, all these is mere conjecture.  Well, you're right.  Up until CoT, all the supposition about Halima and Egwene was merely speculation.  However, in CoT, we get conclusive evidence.  Egwene gets some new prophetic dreams, the first clear ones in weeks.  Why?<br /><br />     Hypothesis 1:  It's all in the Tea<br />Chesa gives Egwene some strange tea that night that tastes awful.  She says it should clear up the headaches.  It's this mysterious tea that solves the problem and clears up things.<br /><br />     Hypothesis 2:  Halima Screws Up<br />Egwene dismisses Halima for the day.  Halima whines about the headaches that might come as a result.  Bam, right on cue, a headache starts up.  But Egwene is firm and steadfast...and orders Halima out anyway.<br /><br />OK, you can argue that it was the tea until the cows come home, but it's far more likely that Halima didn't get to work her magic on Egwene that night.  The headaches are just the inducement for Egwene to let Halima rub on her.  This speaks for the hypothesis that Halima is performing a complicated weave that requires tactile contact to work, like when Verin needs to touch the people she's brainwashing at the beginning of PoD.  So, in conclusion:<br /><br />1.  The Shadow's finally got a clue.  They're recognized Dreaming as a hinderance to their plans, and send Halima to stop it.<br /><br />2.  Egwene's dreams have been muddy ever since Halima started rubbing on her.  Therefore, Halima must be somehow causing the problem.<br /><br />3.  The weave Halima is using on Egwene requires tactile contact to work.  This is why the one time Halima doesn't get her rubbin' session in, Egwene has clear, prophetic dreams.


created: 2003-02-25 19:41:52
subject: <b>Re: Burr</b>
body:
<br /> It looks like I'm the first here, so I thought I would go ahead and respond to Burr's comment.<br /><br /> I believe that the closer it comes to Tarmon Gai'don, the failure of the barriers will accelerate, with everything reaching a climax simultaneously.<br /><br /> <br /><br /> My thanks to all that helped put this one together. You know who you are!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 19:46:27
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
Hurin's sniffing, the wolfbrothers, and Min's visions suggest that its not abrupt. The ghosts appearing is somewhat abrupt, and I think there may be a valid explanation. Both Dobraine and Bashere's wife were attacked, and it's been made fairly clear that the attackers were probably after the seals. In Bashere's case it is unlikely that the attackers succeeded, since they were chased off. Dobraine was found when he was almost dead though, so it is possible that the seal(s) he was guarding was made off with. If that seal was broken -- intentionally or in the process of being taken, that may account for the appearance of ghosts. The timing is right as well, since no ghosts are seen until shortly after the attack on Dobraine.


created: 2003-02-25 21:47:59
subject: <b>Good thoughts but.....</b>
body:
I don't know if this is what RJ is thinking as he's writing. That being said; I like it, and it makes sense and seems to tie in nicely with what's going on in Randland at the moment. <br /><br />Good Work!!


created: 2003-02-25 21:49:04
subject: <b>Ghosts not THAT new</b>
body:
Winter's Heart<br />p. 71<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />719<br /><br />Torval and Gedwyn. Already dead. WALKING UP THE STAIRS. At first glance, it appears to be a trick by Fain. But, he runs screaming from them (possibly; technically, it could be debated what he ran from, but, given the situation, it could very well be ghosts). This takes place a day or two before the taint is healed. Just thought I'd mention it.


created: 2003-02-25 21:54:59
subject: <b>The seals</b>
body:
If the ghosts appearing was strictly a function of the seals weakening and being destroyed then there should have been ghosts walking around during the Age of Legends when the Bore was first created.  As far as I know there has never been any reference to events like that.<br /><br />Another great job, Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 21:59:13
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
This is exactly what I thought when I read CoT, much better than saying it is Fain or the Dark One touching the world again, or some new shadowspawn.


created: 2003-02-25 22:03:03
subject: <b>Wonderful theory</b>
body:
The theory is very well thought and makes alot of sense. And another thought maybe the ghost phenomenon has to do with the convergence of all possibilities-- after if Rand beats the DO in one mirror world he beats them in all.<br />


created: 2003-02-26 04:34:46
subject: <b>Why now? Why all of a sudden?</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Burr says: So why are they only now starting to appear, and in such force? All these sightings start happening over a rather short period of time, however you look at it.</b></font><br /><br />The only ghosts <i>we</i> have seen are recent and in the presence of one of the major characters.  <br /><br />However, IIRC there have been several vague reports from various Eyes-and-Ears for a coule of volumes now about ghosts and &quot;shadowspawn&quot; that have been ignored or dismissed as fantasies -- some obviously refer the Seanchan incursions, but there are bound to be a few that really do refer to actual ghost sightings.<br /><br />I propose that many E&amp;Es simply did not report ghost sightings because they knew such reports would not be believed.  E&amp;Es in places like So Habor would simply stop reporting because of the general depression affecting the city.  <br /><br />Note many E&amp;Es for various figures have fallen silent and we, the readers, have written them off as Seanchan related. I suspect that RJ has successfully hidden foreshadowings of the ghosts by focusing all of our attentions on the Seanchan.<br /><br />The apparent &quot;sudden&quot; plague of ghosts has been building off camera, and our major characters are only just now encountering them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 10:18:13
subject: <b>Yes, I do</b>
body:
Yes, I totally agree.<br /><br />Plus, I believe I can use this theory to back up one that I am working on.<br /><br />Thank you, Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 10:19:19
subject: <b>In response to Burr, that's the way things happen in WoT</b>
body:
Remember the bubbles of evil started happening in the summer of 999, and are blamed on the weakening of the Dark One's prison, yet, at that point, four seals were still intact and the last one tobreak had been at Falme, the previous Fall.  In addition,  Aginor and Balthamel were the Forsaken least sealed in, so they  were all old and withered when they broke out, and all the other Forsaken popped out apparently around the same time a bit later, perfectly intact.  At the point which Lanfear shows up, the second seal had not broken, so there is no known event that  allowed the Forsaken to break free, even if we can attribute Aginor and Balthamel to the first seal (and we don't really know at what point the seal broke, before, during or after their confrontation with Rand &amp; co.).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 10:50:26
subject: <b>Other Factors to weaken the veil</b>
body:
I go along with this as it ties into some other points like the Aiel idea that life is a dream from which we will wake and the Tremalking observation that the illusion for life is lifting (not quoting anything here as I do not have my books handy but you get the gist). Other points that you might make; the horn brought back the dead heroes from the dream world, Birgitte was ripped from it and Rand and Egwene walked in it in the flesh. All of these could be contributing factors to weakening the barriers.


created: 2003-02-26 10:52:16
subject: <b>I have to admire the amount of effort you've put in</b>
body:
...researching the quotes and tying them all together. Well done, indeed.<br /><br />I also find it interesting that the majority of the quotes you've used were spoken in the first book. It makes one wonder how many other little tidbits have been missed.<br /><br />On to the theory, I am curious to see how <i>else</i> this weakening of barriers will manifest itself. We've seen ghosts, the appearance of more Darkfriends, and widespread uncertainty and paranoia among the general populace of Randland. How else?<br /><br />As you suggested in your first response, the weakening will accelerate and I'd tend to think so as well. Either as additional seals weaken (or completely break) or simply because TG draws closer, barriers will continue to fail. But, will there be other signs of this weakening we haven't seen yet, or are there others that we have missed?<br /><br />Great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 13:01:26
subject: <b>I don't totally agree.</b>
body:
But I admit that this seems like a better possibility than any other.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good work connecting all three taveren to this, btw.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 15:20:10
subject: <b>I likes</b>
body:
Very good theory. I argee with you 99%. We've known that the barriers on the DO's prison are failing for a long time - and in CoT we see Darkfriends attempting to steal the barriers from Rand and co.  I found it very interesting, as well, that Tuon and the other chic didn't see the ghosts Mat was dancing thru.  Also, I believe the sudden explosion of Creepers (i think that's what they were called [like roaches]) in the food definitely have to do with the DO getting closer to breaking free (esp. when they use the One Power to place &quot;a Keeping&quot; over the food).  Although there are various meanings between many of the quotes you used.  I always thought the Wall being pierced was the Dragonwall and the veil of parting being raised was the Aiel returning from the Waste.  Just a thought...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 16:35:44
subject: <b>Epicenter...</b>
body:
A while back, I posted to the message board about an epicenter to the dead.<br /><br />This kind of needed to ignore the first sighting in Cairhien, but other than that, you could put an epicenter near So Harbor, just south of the Mountains of Mist.<br /><br />I don't know why, but the effect does seem to be localized around a center.<br /><br />I like your theory though, good quotes!


created: 2003-02-26 17:26:06
subject: <b>Belief and Order</b>
body:
The next day brought a note crammed onto a torn-off corner of parchment.<br /><br />Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty.<br /><br />Fel<br /><br />Could the reason that the DO and Moridin want Chaos is to weaken these barriers?  The first line of the note never made much sense to me.  But, in this light, it seems that the weakening barriers are part of the DO's plan to finally break loose.<br /><br />


created: 2003-02-26 17:58:36
subject: <b>Nice work</b>
body:
It's theories like this one that stop the rest of our theories getting posted! Well researched. Just a side not on the whole Perrin and the wolves. If dead wolves live on in the dream world, will Perrin go there when he dies, and if so, will he become the soul of a wolf, or a hero tied to the horn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 18:05:28
subject: <b>Well I must say</b>
body:
that this is one of the most well put together and exhaustively researched theory I've ever read. It's something that (after only one read of CoT) I hadn't thought of.<br /><br />Now that I'm looking at it, though, I'm thinking that these people are not 'ghosts', but rather people in alternate worlds who are still alive there. If the worlds are coming together, these people (who are still alive in those other worlds) are actually alive behind the thinning barriers. I think it would be interesting if Rand were to meet himself face to face, or if (in one of the other worlds) LTT joined the Dark and was granted immortality. 3000+ years of life would be more than enough to drive someone crazy, and if some of the strange occourances rest on the failing barriers' shoulders, then this could be a possibility for LTT, the Third Face, and how &quot;Oe will live, and one will die&quot;. That is, if you believe that al'Thor wil live, which I don't.<br /><br />GREAT theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 15:16:09
subject: <b>dead man walking</b>
body:
I think it is just part of the judeo-christian belief that the dead will walk the earth again at the end of the world... nothing anyone did in particular just a side effect of the the last battle approaching.  a sign that it is near at hand.  maybe it will motivate people to unite<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-28 00:49:58
subject: <b>Ghosts were seen in The Great Hunt!</b>
body:
I can't remember the exact page and quote but remember when Rand and the entire group led by Ingtar went to that town that was empty?  Rand saw that family eating dinner but they weren't there and had been recently killed.  They were ghosts!  The barriers were weaking along time ago!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I a star beneathe the stairs?<br />Am I a ghost upon the stage?<br />Am I your anything?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-28 04:01:40
subject: <b>Re: Ghosts were seen in The Great Hunt!</b>
body:
<br /><font size="-1"><b>Submitted by Daughter of the Sun <br /><br />...Rand saw that family eating dinner but they weren't there and had been recently killed. They were ghosts! The barriers were weaking along time ago!</b></font><br /><br />That is generlly considered to hve been an illusion woven by Lanfear to force Rand to begin channeling more.  Even if it were a genuine haunting, it isn't necessarily related to the current plague of ghosts.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-01 02:29:11
subject: <b>Ghosts in Caemlyn too?</b>
body:
This is a great theory Light! You may be onto something big here. Like, something that has been right in front of our eyes for some time, yet we have not seen. I offer this passage from Winters Heart, Chapter 7, The Streets of Caemlyn:<br /><br /><i>Watching a dull-eyed woman stagger through the crowd clutching a small child on her shoulder, Elayne fumbled a coin from her purse and handed it to one of the Guards, an apple-cheeked woman with cold eyes. Tzigan claimed to be from Ghealdan, the daughter of a minor noble; well, she might be Ghealdanin, at least. When the Guardswoman leaned down to proffer the coin, <b>the woman with her child staggered on by unheeding, unseeing. There were too many in the city like that. </b> The Palace fed thousands every day, at kitchens set up throughout the city, but too many could not even summon the energy to collect their bread and soup. Elayne offered a prayer for mother and child as she dropped the coin back into her purse.</i><br /><br />They staggered by unseeing, to that witch they need most? A handout of money? Perhaps they were not really there&#8230;.<br /><br />Before this, in the same chapter:<br /><br /><i>The city bulged, its population swollen beyond that of Tar Valon.</i><br /><br />Are they that big, or have ghosts invaded Caemlyn, and they don&#8217;t even realize it yet?<br /><br />More fuel for the fire perhaps, or maybe just me being paranoid <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />At any rate, I think this theory holds great weight, the evidence Light supplied is very meaningful IMO, and this is one theory to keep an eye on. A big thumb up!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 14:50:12
subject: <b>prophecy</b>
body:
I agree with the main thought of weakening barriers, but<br />the quote you used from the Karatheon Cycle could mean something else. &quot;The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.&quot; TFOH, p9. This is a quote from the beginning of the book where the Aiel finally leave the Three-Fold Land. Couldn't the pierced wall be the Dragonwall, and the veil of parting the black veil Aiel use when they kill?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.<br /><br /><br />I want the words<br />Something you haven't heard <br />Will I find them and<br />Will I have what it takes to say them?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 16:40:09
subject: <b>Barriers weakening between worlds?</b>
body:
Could the weakening of barriers mean a synchronization of worlds?  Basically, the ghosts could be manifestations from TAR, where they are certainly possible.  One reason they might manifest near where something happened that was important to them, is because people there remember them.<br /><br />Mat is at least tangetially linked to TAR due to having died.<br /><br />Also, with the countless horde of Wolves, isn't it sensible that Wolves, with their connection to TAR, are used?  It could ALL the wolves -- those in Westland as well as in TAR.<br /><br />I tend to see the Seals as a separation.  the more they weaken, the more the synchronization is complete, and that's what the Dark One wants.  After all, all his actions are to have greater access to the world.


created: 2003-03-03 04:39:20
subject: <b>Masemas real intention with So Habor was ..</b>
body:
..to get poisoned grain to Perrins Army. The townspeople are scared from the ghots, granted. But not at all as scared as they should have been. Who says they have to stay inside the city walls for protection? The ghosts aren't put off by walls. Masema however, had plenty of time to indoctrinate them in the way of dirty mobism (my word). How else could Masema defeat Perrins aqrmy when it has channelers? The seanchan seem to be acting to a different accord. But then again, it would seem uncharacteristically of them to use such doshonourable methods as poisoning against a foe. What is likely is that Masema would enjoy an alliance with Perrin and the Seanchan since it would mgive him the oppurtunity to pison some foreign blasphemers as well.<br />At least this is my theory, should i submit it?


created: 2003-03-10 14:30:41
subject: <b>Well, I like it.</b>
body:
I gave it a big thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-11 23:14:21
subject: <b>As always, you are a treat to read!</b>
body:
Well done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  I especially liked the connections you made with Mat and Perrin.<br /><br />I have nothing substantial to add-just good job <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-02 16:10:13
subject: <b>just another point</b>
body:
I don't know if anyone saw it ..and i don't know if it is true but i don't think this is the first appernece of &quot;ghost&quot;.... what about in the Great Hunt with the people who were there but wern't ..? thought i would post my 2 cents <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />This isn't my world I only live in it


created: 2003-05-15 19:43:52
subject: <b>Parting The Veil</b>
body:
An excellant theory, Light. Ihad not thought of this.<br /><br />With your theory and Vashti`s, my thoughts have been given a way to happen.<br /><br /> weakening of the barriers:  could this not lead to my opinion that the beginning {1st Turning of the Wheel} is coming? Note Wolfbrothers being as old as time. This would alsoenable my opinion of Rand, LTT and the Other One emerging {after Rand`s supposedly death} from SG, and the 3 of them marrying Min, Elayne and Avienda, respectively,<br /><br />  thanks for your well thought out Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 14:32:44
subject: <b>Assuming T'aR is the greatest barrier of all...</b>
body:
...once it is broken the DO can be completely freed, or completely sealed away. &quot;Clear the rubble&quot; LTT's patch was just made in the physical world, but a permanent sealing of the DO would have to include the T'a'R.<br /><br />T'a'R is also the binding point between death and life, between what was, what is and what will be (as the time flows differently there).<br /><br />See the looking for the DO-theory.<br /><br />respectfully<br />Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-22 12:44:23
subject: <b>New book title</b>
body:
Great theory. I think it deserves more attention now that we know the title of book 11. Thinning barriers will probably affect the interaction between TAR and the real world. Perhaps &quot;Knife of Dreams&quot; is an allusion to the effects of the more complete crumbling of this barrier? Maybe even directly related to wolves and/or darkhounds (which may also have some origins in TAR?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Psst! Over here! I'm a friend!&quot;<br />&quot;Anyone's friend in particular, or just generally well disposed to humanity?&quot; - Ford continues running for his life.<br />- Douglas Adams, One of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy books.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-24 10:05:26
subject: <b>What happened to the DO's power over the dead?</b>
body:
I liked the thoery for the most part. And there are quite a few insightful comments that followed. I am so cunfussed on one major point. No one seems to recall or attribute any sway to the fact that the Dark One has control over the dead. Death is his domionion. How would all these ghosts be allowed to float around unless he lets them? And why would he be content to let them wander peaceably? Why not use them as a destraction or to further choas? Anyone?


created: 2004-09-07 12:30:11
subject: <b>Today on the MB, MJJ Sedai replied to a post...</b>
body:
that the dead would be involved in Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />Re-reading your theory, I noticed the Prophecy quoted in TFoH &quot;....There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;...this side of death.&quot; seems to point to the dead, indeed, helping out in the DO`s defeat. It would make sense, since Egwene dreamed of Perrin leading a great pack of wolves, and Hopper, too, said the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 00:01:19
subject: <b>Rand dying</b>
body:
The prophecies say that Rand will die. Not to mention all of the visions/dreams of him being dead.<br />Isnt it possible that he WILL die but come back to life when the barrier between life and death is completely cut(just before TG)? This could also explain about the vision of him as a begger, isnt the cliche image of a ghost a man in old robes and bandages(or an egyptian mummy for that matter).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 14:22:16
subject: <b>That reminds me ...</b>
body:
When reading the account of the Trollocs attacking the Two Rivers, I often wondered exactly why Luc was killing wolves like crazy.  Perhaps he was harvesting wolf souls to make his Darkhound Pack???<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 14:24:49
subject: <b>Gifts</b>
body:
You have to wonder if Isam is able to twist a wolf's soul on his own. After all, he kills the in TAR and the real world. What happens to the ones killed int he wolf dream? I cant see him not wanting some sort of trophy. One of his gifts may have been that power; after all, both darkhounds and him must have been touched by the TP to bacome what they are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 15:02:49
subject: <b>...Nice...</b>
body:
good theory, but you leave more questions than answers.  I'm curious to see where this will lead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 18:06:50
subject: <b>A hint of a thread.</b>
body:
I noted a thread that is worth noting in your theory that should be followed.  The Darkhounds were once the souls of wolves.  Luc/Isam leads the Dh pack.  I belive that Isam/Luc was a Wolfbrother who went to the shadow.  Thus, the &quot;Shadowbrothers&quot; are lead by a Wolfbrother who was touched by the Dark One.  This I believe answers why he doesn't need the One Power to control the Wild Hunt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity....<br /><b><i>I AM THAT LINE!!</i></b><br />Please don't tell me that I'm normal, or I'll have to get professionals to set you straight.<br />http://www.geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 18:11:35
subject: <b>Two things</b>
body:
1) You stated early on that the darkhounds must be controlled by the One Power, as they obey Sammael, but the gholam obeyed Sammael also, and it clearly wasn't being controlled by the OP.<br />and<br />2) I might be wrong about this one, but I believe the whitecloak camp would be south of Perrins camp, roughly anyway, yet when Perrin followed their tracks around his camp, he said they came from the North and went on to the South. If that's the case they couldn't have originated from that smell in the whitecloak camp. Of course, I'm not sure about the directions, that's just my impression.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 19:06:16
subject: <b>I agree, kind of, but...</b>
body:
You say that a gateway was opened from the blight, but Isam can't channel. Who channeled? And if that someone did, why couldn't that channeler be the leader of the pack? If Isam was embaressed why let a channeler help him? This theory doesn't answer these questions. Still, great theory.<br /><br />P.S. How do we know that whitecloaks are south of perrin?


created: 2003-02-26 19:36:23
subject: <b>Good Theory!</b>
body:
<br />I like your theory! It makes sense, and it also adds alot of excitement to the lead-up to Tarmon Gai'don. Imagine Perrin and his wolfbrothers fighting against Isam and his darkhounds...awsome thought!<br /><br />Also, Isam is Malkieri. There was a previous theory attempting to prove that Elyas Machera is Malkieri also, which would make it evan more interesting if he is beside Perrin at this battle. But it's all speculation at this point, but sounds very exciting.


created: 2003-02-26 19:36:31
subject: <b>Where are the Whiecloaks? (CoT spoiler)</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Submitted by moridin haran<br /><br />P.S. How do we know that whitecloaks are south of perrin?</b></font> <br /><br />Balwer's last report to Perrin in CoT put &quot; a large force Whitecloaks to the South and Seanchan to the East.&quot;  (IIRC)<br /><br />About the Theory:<br /><br />Luc/Isam has some method of gating from TaR to the real world -- as illustrated by his attempted assignation of Rand and Min in Far madding in WH.  He could as easily have gated the pack into TaR and Back into the R/W as had some channeler make a direct gateway from the Blight.<br /><br />Since the pack is headed South and the only things due south of Perrin are Mat &amp; Co, and the City of Ebou Dar (Where the Gholam was last seen) It would seem that they've been running all the way from the Blight.  <br /><br />The foul smell Eamon Valda noted probably wasn't the darkhounds, although it could have been a random whiff as they passed his camp.  The smell was probably Damandred (or another Traveler) leaving the area for the Blight after giving instructions to someone in the Whitecloak camp -- Asunawa, maybe?<br /><br />Fain/Mordeth or the Gholam are the only creatures such alarge pack of Darkhounds could possilby be required for and the connection between Wolves/Darkhounds/Isam seems to indicate Fain as the target and Slayer as &quot;master of the hounds.&quot;<br /><br />As with all theories, this one has some holes and shaky assumptions, but I think it's pretty close to what we will RAFO<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 22:25:43
subject: <b>hhhmmm...</b>
body:
Didn't someone else write this same theory? Except they didn't mention Isam, but the Darkhounds were definitely after Fain...let me check my references.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 02:52:51
subject: <b>Thanks and a few answers</b>
body:
First of all, thanks to everyone who posted a comment or other thoughts about my theory, the feedback is important!<br /><br />To moridin haran,<br />I pointed out that Moridin opened the gateway for Isam &amp; his pack. I believe this since Moridin is Isam's patron on this task and wants Fain dead. Therefore he helps Isam a bit to hasten his success.<br />We have no clues that the Darkhounds are connected to Moridin, because of this I don't think it's Moridin's pack. But of course that would be another interesting theory although I think you can't prove it, it would be just speculation. I found some hints that connect Isam with the Darkhounds.<br />Also Isam's POV in WH shows that the Forsaken respect Isam. I don't think Moridin would go to Isam, take his pack and use it, and after all he gave the task to Isam. <br />I think he went to Isam, asked him if he do the job, then Isam agreed, took his pack, and Moridin opend the gateway for him.<br /><br />to son_of_battles,<br />Yes, shooganooga wrote a theory that Fain is the target. But he didn't explain why they hunt Fain, and how the Darkhounds came to Altara (or where is Perrin and co?).<br />Also I concentrated more on the connection Isam-Darkhounds-Wild Hunt, and Isam's significance. But Fain is an important part to draw my conclusions.<br /><br />About the controlling and to shooganooga,<br />I pointed out that it's likely one of the many gifts Isam got (and the twisting of wolves to Darkhounds). After all the DO can spend the TP and also Fain get some abilities. <br />But I already read other good explainations from The_Traveller (harvesting souls) or a1eshandre which good by right.<br /> <br />In any case, I'm always happy to read new comments!


created: 2003-02-27 05:19:18
subject: <b>The Wild Hunt</b>
body:
Great theory, well though out and backed up by quotes from the text.  There are several reason the shadow could be after Fain.  Firstly he is dangerous to them and could grow into an even bigger danger.  Secondly and more immediate he is focused on Rand at the moment and that could interfear with the Shadow's plans for Rand.<br /><br />As for how the Pack are controled.  It's possible that the pack are controled by the One Power.  If that is the case Moridin could simply tell the pact to obey Isam. Its also possible that Isam can control them directly.  He has been given several odd gifts and there is no reason to believe that we have seen all that he is capable of.


created: 2003-02-27 08:11:03
subject: <b>new ideas...</b>
body:
Of course I think a lot about the theory and I get some new thoughts.<br /><br />Several people wonder why the Shadow would send 50 Darkhounds plus (if you agree with my theory) Slayer. It seems a bit overkill for Fain.<br /><br />I think my theory explains it (though it's not said directly). <br />Here are my explainations:<br /><br />1. It's a pack. The pack, all 50 Darkhounds, hunts together. It's not good to seperate the pack since they are most effective if they are all on the hunt.<br /><br />2. If Isam supposes that Fain stays at the WC camp it only makes sense. <br />Consider that there are around 9000 Whitecloaks at the camp. 50 Darkhounds are not too much for such an army. While the Hounds attack the WC and create chaos, Slayer could easily take Fain.<br />And if Fain would not be with the WC, it's possible that he stays with another army. <br />So, to be sure, take as much Darkhounds with you as possible!<br /><br />3. Maybe the hunt for Fain is just their first hunt. <br />After that they have other tasks. <br />At least Slayer and the pack could create much chaos in the heart of the Westlands. Therefore it makes sense that the pack was finally send from the Blight.<br /><br />Btw, is it possible that Moridin knows that Fain and Mordeth merged? Moridin was in SL in PoD as the wanderer, maybe he learned that Mordeth left SL, and most likely with Fain and the dagger. <br />If Moridin knows that, it's obvious why he is concerned about Fain!


created: 2003-02-27 08:36:59
subject: <b>Good Theory !</b>
body:
I like the idea of Isam/Luc killing wolves to build an army. I don'T think you need to be a channeler to control a pack. Maybe a channeler can do more thing with a pack than a non channeler. I aslo like the idea of Luc being a wolfbrother... maybe that why he was sent to the blight ?<br />I think Isam/Luc will play a big role in the last book related to the propheties.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 09:34:12
subject: <b>makes sense no?????</b>
body:
Makes sense big man!!!!<br /><br />Isam and Luc are somehow warped together right???<br /><br />makes sense that he can warp wolves to darkhounds yeah???<br /><br />Obviously the darkhounds have to come from wolves first from what lan said ( i think) .... no one ever really questioned why &quot;slayer&quot; was doing what he did in the dream world...i mean why wolves of all things....why not a slayer of bears??? or chickens???<br /><br /><br />the fear from hopper when slayer is mentioned could only be associated with there hatred of Darkhounds....<br /><br /><br />the WILD HUNTS ON BABY....WOOOOOOOOOOW<br /><br /><br />MAT should get with MOIRAINE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-27 10:44:59
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
Very well composed theory (if you ignore the fact that Fain is dead) <br /><br />i've thought of an alternative way for the pack with Isam to go so far south without being noticed<br /><br />if you go with isam is a wolfbrother than you can see similarities and diffrences between him (houndbrother)  and regular wolfbrothers<br /><br />perrin recieved some abilities from wolves (enhanced sences, dream walking etc...) so by that rational Isam recieved his abilities from darkhounds (plus some abilities he got from the Luc-Isam Merge) we can see that wolves are closely connected to TAR so their darkbrothers are probably also but differently they can go into TAR in the flesh <br />that is how they got with isam from the blight<br />(this only works if the main theory is correct)<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />May you have good hunting and shees to give you many cubs<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 14:21:32
subject: <b>Clues! Clues! You're missing the clues!</b>
body:
You are all SO missing the biggest clue. Lord Luc has all that cool gear with the wolves decorating it. If I remember correctly, he's got a wolf's head belt buckle and some gloves with wolves on them. <br /><br />Totally lends all needed credence to the theory that &quot;Luc/Isam leads the pack that he probably created (by killing wolves) from the Blight (where he lives) directly to the area (not by gateway) where Fain should be (cause we last saw him around Far Madding) using his own previous abilities as a wolfbrother.&quot;<br /><br />Thank you, thank you.<br /><br />&quot;Blue! Why is there no ice in my lemonade?! Drop and gimme ten!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 17:47:53
subject: <b>Best CoT theory yet</b>
body:
Excellent theory... explains all the connections between Luc, Isam, and the wolves.  Also nicely sets up Perrin vs. Luc as Good Wolf versus Bad Wolf.<br /><br />Only one comment -- it might be the case that the Darkhounds were sent to the Whitecloak camp, but I don't think Isam expected to find Fain there.  Fain has appeared in public since TSR (for instance at the rebel social south of Cairhien in ACoS), with plenty of room to be seen by Darkfriends, and Fain and Isam were both in Far Madding at the same time in WH.  True, we have no proof that Isam knew Fain was there, but a little research could have told him that.  It seems more likely that the stench at the WC camp was related to Asanuwa being compelled, possibly by Demandred.<br /><br />All in all, though, great theory.  This sheds a lot more light on what Luc/Isam/Slayer has to do with the story.<br /><br />-OA


created: 2003-02-27 18:04:04
subject: <b>@ Zedrick</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Very well composed theory (if you ignore the fact that Fain is dead).</b></font><br /><br />Uhh, care to fill us in on when he died????<br /><br />....<br /><br />About the theory, another well put together theory just like LitN's latest. You've managed to tie most of what has been happening in the Luc/Isam and Darkhound hunt threads together.<br /><br />Again, I'm forced to agree with this theory (you left me little room otherwise!) and give it a thumbs up.<br /><br />Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 21:51:41
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
This was the best we've had yet for the hounds. I agree with it 99% - Fain is the obvious target, and now that you've explained Isam, it does seem like he is recruiting new darkhounds, but I still think the pack is controlled by Moridin, and Isam is just working with them.<br /><br />PS if the darkhounds are never seen south of the mountains of dhoom, how did an Aes Sedi become such an expert on them? It seemed very sus to me that she was such an expert and had crossed the paths of so many packs, and she just happended to be one of Perrin's. I'm thinking Black Ajah...


created: 2003-02-27 23:47:02
subject: <b>how perhaps Isam merged with luc</b>
body:
I'm not sure if wolfbrothers can be darkfriends. But if luc was a wolf brother, and the trolloc prophecy said &quot;...Isam was waiting,&quot; perhaps Isam twisted Luc in the same way he twists wolves into darkhounds....<br />I don't remember enough about Luc's story, so maybe he was a darkfriend. <br />But it would seem that Luc could have also bee twisted and then  merged with Isam to give them control of the pack through the dark wolfbrother. Maybe Isams power has to do with twisting spirits, and not only wolves. And he twisted Luc. <br />But they do have other ways to twist spirits also.....<br />just a thought<br />


created: 2003-02-28 10:54:42
subject: <b>A question</b>
body:
<br />If, as you say, Slayer has been recruiting Darkhounds around Emond's field by killing wolves, why did Perrin not smell them?<br /><br />The fact that Asam enjoyed killing wolves even more than Luc only proves what we already know: that Slayer enjoys his work. And wolves are the only animal that are totally on the side of the Light.<br /><br />Slayer seemed to me to be a sort of a freelance. Like the foxes and snakes from which I assume he got his powers (rather than the Dark Lord), he is not inherently evil, just different. Because of his love of killing, he agrees to be hired by one of the Forsaken.<br /><br />I'm not convinced by your arguments. I would have liked a more direct link with a pack of darkhounds than 1)he kills wolves and 2) a cryptic line in the Trolloc prophecy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-28 12:11:00
subject: <b>I try to convince you then...</b>
body:
though it seems you already voted thumb down. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;If, as you say, Slayer has been recruiting Darkhounds around Emond's field by killing wolves, why did Perrin not smell them?&quot;<br /><br />Some people suggested that Isam can take the souls of the wolves, bring it to the Blight and twist them to create new DH. This would be an explaination.<br />In any case I think it's a longer process to create Darkhounds. Wolves don't become Darkhounds only because Slayer killed them and he brought no DH to the Two Rivers which could eat souls.  <br /><br />&quot;The fact that Asam enjoyed killing wolves even more than Luc only proves what we already know: that Slayer enjoys his work. And wolves are the only animal that are totally on the side of the Light.&quot;<br /><br />Luc enjoys and Isam enjoys. <br />But why does Isam like it more than Luc? Why don't have both the same pleasure, or Luc more than Isam? <br />I explained it in the theory.<br /><br />&quot;Slayer seemed to me to be a sort of a freelance. Like the foxes and snakes from which I assume he got his powers (rather than the Dark Lord), he is not inherently evil, just different. Because of his love of killing, he agrees to be hired by one of the Forsaken.&quot;<br /><br />I think it's obvious that Slayer is evil, works for the Shadow and so is a Darkfriend. <br />Consider that Isam was captured when he was a baby from the Shadow. I believe Ishamael is responsible of Isam's education and made him evil. <br />And Ishy did bad things to at least two other people: Fain and Farstrider (and I also believe he taught Taim).   <br />Finally Slayer calls the DO the &quot;Great Lord&quot;, typical for a Darkfriend.  <br /><br />&quot;I'm not convinced by your arguments. I would have liked a more direct link with a pack of darkhounds than 1)he kills wolves and 2) a cryptic line in the Trolloc prophecy.&quot;<br /><br />There are more arguments, I show you my main thoughts in short: <br /><br />1. Moridin sent Isam to kill Fain, cause he could become important <br />2. Suddenly a very special, huge DH pack appear out of nowhere in the middle of the Westlands, hunting someone<br />3. The stench at the WC camp could come from a gateway from the Blight.<br />4. Fain was with the WCs, Isam knows that<br />5. the Dark prophecies connect the DH to Isam<br /><br />We have more clues that Isam is connected to the pack than Moridin or someone else.<br /><br />But of course, maybe I'm wrong and you are right. <br />I hope we will RAFO in the next book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-28 12:33:07
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I like that fact that you think that Slayer might be an ex-wolfbrother.  It really would be a perfect counterbalance for Perrin(since he will obviously have to deal with this guy eventually).


created: 2003-02-28 14:34:57
subject: <b>I like it except for one thing.</b>
body:
I'm not convinced Isam or Luc are wolfbrothers. It's an incredibly rare thing (which certainly doesn't mean it couldn't have shown up again) but there is absolutely no mention of the golden eyes, which are the hallmark of wolf-brotherhood. Plus, I don't think either of them needs to be a wolfbrother for the theory to work.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-01 20:13:56
subject: <b>Wrong Target</b>
body:
I'm convinced on the connection between Isam and Wolves and Darkhounds.<br /><br />I think you forget who Isam failed to kill in WH.  THAT'S who he's after.<br />Nuf Said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Feet spread to maintain balance on a windy deck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 14:39:59
subject: <b>it was good but...</b>
body:
the whitecloak connection just doesn't do it for me. i still think the stench valda smelt was the blight/gateway theory, but there must be a forsaken (demandred?) with the children, how else do you explain Asunawa's strange behavior?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.<br /><br /><br />I want the words<br />Something you haven't heard <br />Will I find them and<br />Will I have what it takes to say them?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-03 17:43:25
subject: <b>Some more problems with the theory</b>
body:
Though I like it in general.<br />As someone stated above, Fain was sited since he left the WC.  Please, do not ignore this just to fit the theory.<br />He was seen by (examples)<br />1.Alviarin spoke with him when he came for the dagger.<br />2.He was in Riatin's gang along with Elayne's good buddy Daved Hanlon.  It was also well known that he stabbed Rand in aCoS, as Rand notes that Sammael thought he was done for.  If Sammael knew, surely Moridin knew.<br /><br />And I do believe Slayer got his powers from the Finns, but that doesn't really pose a problem to the theory, as some wordings could be changed (if you think like me, that is)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange"><i>She bit the bowl clean off the spoon<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uozGujfdS0&amp;feature=related</i> <br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-04 00:11:01
subject: <b>Darkhound connection.....</b>
body:
......i like.  Everyone knew of Slayer's hobby.  Killing Wolves a hobby?  What I like is the resulting connection with the darkhounds.  I have to admit I never even considered this.  You might well be on the right track.  Good work!<br /><br /><br />I disagree with the connection to the Whitecloaks.  I believe as you, that the stench was that of the blight.  I think that it points at the influence of Asunawas by someone.  Demmy maybe, not darkhounds.  They could have travelled from the blight without help and made good time without being noticed as only few know the signs of their passing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-04 16:17:27
subject: <b>It may have been said before...</b>
body:
I think this may have been said before in some of the other comments, but here it goes. At one point Perrin wonders if the soul of a wolfbrother could be taken like that of a wolf and turned into something like a shadowbrother. I say that is what happend with Isam. He was a wolfbrother gone bad. That way he does not need the one power to lead he just can because of his link. In the end it will come down to him, Perrin and a bunch of rabid dogs!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-12 00:16:07
subject: <b>not Luc, Isam!</b>
body:
Didionite mentioned that Luc and Isam don't have golden eyes (therefore can't be wolfbrothers) but we have never had a real description of Isam, have we? Every time we have encountered Slayer, it has been as Luc.  <br /> <br />I think this is a very mysterious and telling clue.  There must be a reason why Jordan has never let us see Isam.  Could it be because he would then have to describe his eyes?<br /><br />Isam was taken as a baby, and hasn't been seen (as far as we know) in the real world except by his victims and fellow darkfriends and shadowspawn.  It would explain why he went to the Two Rivers as Luc, why he does a lot of things as Luc.  Golden eyes are a very memorable attribute.      <br /><br />I think the lack of a description of Isam is a big glaring sign pointing to Isam being a wolfbrother when combined with all the other info that has been gathered by others on this blackboard.  <br />Great theory, and great discussion!  <br />Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-20 02:23:27
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
I like the Perrin-Wolf vs. Slayer-DH concept but believe the DH pack's actions at Perrin's camp disprove this theory.<br /><br />Perrin should now be #1 on the Slayers personal hit list after the events in The Two Rivers.  If Slayer is in command of this DH pack, their standing order should be if you come across the guy who shot me, Kill him!    <br /> <br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br />


created: 2003-03-28 04:33:45
subject: <b>Slayer's Orders</b>
body:
Perrin isn't on Slayer's most wanted list because one one, simple attribute: Moridin's order. He wants Fain dead, and like the huntsman he is, Slayer won't abandon his prey. Once Fain's out of the way, he can turn his attention to getting rid of Perrin.<br /><br />I guess we're just going to have to RAFO. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-15 16:22:12
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
It's a good theory, but I don't think Isam turns the darkhounds.  I think the darkhounds were created a long time before Isam was even around (probably by Aginor). And then nature took care of breeding.  Although it does make sense that he (Isam/Luc) has been given control of a pack.  It certainly explains why he likes to hunt wolves so much.  <br /><br />And it gives Perrin someone to go up against at TG.  But that brings up another question?  If Rand has Ishy/Moridin/ all the other chosen, Perrin has Slayer/Luc/Isam, then who is Mat supposed to be up against?  The Gholam?  Or is he just the conduit to the Seanchan?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-15 01:43:17
subject: <b>Luc is Rand's uncle.</b>
body:
This is a great theory, however there seems to be one thing that keeps getting overlooked. Luc was sent off to the blight by Gitara Moroso just before Rand was born on Dragonmount. Isn't it possible that Luc can channel?


created: 2003-05-15 13:33:54
subject: <b>The Wild Hunt</b>
body:
An excellant theory- I`m glad to agree with you 1<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-21 10:26:44
subject: <b>Righy OnEtzel</b>
body:
This is an excellent theory.  As usual, you have well-thought out the connections.  I certainly agree that the stench detected by Valda was from the Blight.<br /><br />You are to be commended for being so insightful in a second language!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-25 16:59:58
subject: <b>Whitecloak Camp</b>
body:
First off, great theory.  I had read the theory illustrating why they must be hunting Fain, but it had never occured to me that Isam was leading the pack.  <br /><br />THe only thing that bothers me is the part about them gating to the Whitecloak camp.  <br /><br />First, you say that Valda smells something stinky (smells like the Blight).  That could be from a gateway, but if darkhounds came through, where is the sulfur smell?  We have seen that a normal pack of darkhounds leaves this smell for days when it passes (The pack that was following Rand in TGH).  Surely a pack 5 times the normal size would leave a sulfur smell that would last longer than that from a gateway that just passed stinky air.  <br /><br />Second, as I believe someone has already pointed out before me, Fain was last seen in Far Madding (I think that's the name, the one where you can't channel, at any rate).  While he was there, he attacked Rand and killed some of Taim's assassins.  It seems obvious that Taim at least reports to one of the Forsaken.  News would probably filter up to Moridin that Taim was there.  At any rate, Fain hasn't been among the Whitecloaks for a long while, so it is hard to believe that Isam or Moridin would think he was still with them.<br /><br />So in my opinion, the absence of the sulfur smell says the darkhounds didn't pass through the Whitecloak camp, but the fact that Fain's hunters probably know he is no longer with them puts the nail in the coffin.  But anyway, this is a small part of your theory, and the darkhounds could have come from anywhere in the surrounding wilderness.<br /><br />As a side note, I am not saying that what Valda smelled wasn't a gateway to the Blight.  Perhaps one of the Forsaken (Demandred) has installed himself in the Whitecloaks and had reason to visit the Blight.  <br /><br />This got kind of long, but that's my only complaint with the theory.  You convinced me of everything else.<br /><br />Onnestabe<br /><br />


created: 2003-06-26 17:37:53
subject: <b>Edit to my previous post</b>
body:
Sorry, I referred to the pack following Rand in TGH, when it was actually The Dragon Reborn.  Perrin sees a pawprint in a paving stone while he, Moiraine, and Lan are about a day or so behind Rand.


created: 2003-03-06 15:01:10
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
What can I say?  A very well put together theory, can't say that I've seen any better as far as being organized and coherent.  And big points for originality.  In fact it's so well put together that it's hard to find a point of contention.<br /><br />It makes perfect sense, now, that Mierin (aka Lanfear) would be the one to find and make the Bore given her talent in TAR.<br /><br />One more connection I would make is the with the Wise Ones admonition to Egwene.  They tell her that going to TAR in the flesh is an evil thing, and that you lose a part of yourself when you do it.  They don't quite remember (or at least can't explain) why.  Here's what I think: they (Aiel) are the only group of people to have consistently have Dreamer's since the breaking.  If the Bore was drilled in or through TAR (in other words if it is the wall between the DO's prison and the real world) then it would make sense that from that moment on, going to TAR in the flesh would be associated with evil-ness.  <br /><br />Also (and this is purely speculation) if you're there in the flesh, perhaps the Dark One could &quot;find&quot; you easier or get a better grip on you to manipulate you...after all you'd be that much closer to him.  Kind of like being at Shayol Ghul only not <i>quite</i> as strong.<br /><br />And one more thing that (indirectly) supports both what I said and the original (and brilliant) theory: The forsaken seem to have no fear of going to TAR in the flesh, if I remember correctly they have had meetings there and I doubt that all of them are Dreamers; if the bad effects of doing that were from the DO's influence, why would they have any fear.  Its his turf and they're on his side.<br /><br />Again, great job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 16:14:20
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
Great work, you've really brought this theory together and it is far more coherent and stronger than your original.  one of the best theories in a while.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 16:38:09
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
I have one comment/issue to bring to your attention.<br /><br />First: I'm going to put words in your mouth by summerizing some of what I got from the theory - please correct me if I'm wrong.<br /><br />I interpret that you are suggesting that the blight represents something of an expansion of the bore (created in the War of Power) that is expressed in all worlds.<br /><br />That being the case, how would you explain the advancement of retreat of the blight at various times.  I'm thinking of the times like the blight advancing upon, and swallowing Malkier and the blight retreating after Rand fights Balzamon (sp?).<br /><br />Again, a great theory and now you've got me thinking that TAR is 'wall' of the DO's prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 17:34:27
subject: <b>The dragon, hmmmm</b>
body:
Firstly, a very well put together theory, but my question is this:<br /><br />If the Dark One is released in one world he is released in all of them. However, at least on the world we are most familiar with, the Dragon is there to stop the Dark One breaking out, and if he fails, all hell break loose, the Dark One gets out and the Wheel of Time is broken. Does this then mean that there has to be a Dragon in every world as well. It seems to me that it wouldn't be enough to stop the Dark One only in the 'real world' if he gets out on another it's the same thing. <br />If there does have to be a Dragon in every possible world, are they all Rand/Lews Therin? If so it would be understandable that they are going slightly mad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 17:43:20
subject: <b>Dark thoughts</b>
body:
Wow...that IS a huge researched and well thought out theory! Would you say that once the barrier fails completely, and all the worlds in the Great Pattern collide with each other, people and events of those worlds will impose themselves onto the 'real' world? Or would this collision mean the destruction of all the worlds, in effect, &quot;kill Time&quot;?<br /><br />Goodness, the complexity of RJ's Tarmon Gai'don! Wolves dead and alive, ghosts, the Heroes, the various nations of the world, channelers of various factions both Light and Dark, the Creator and the Dark One, etc....How will he get all that into the written word???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 17:51:47
subject: <b>Questions</b>
body:
1.) Why does the &#8220;thinness&#8221; have to have a physical location?  Shayol Ghul is the heart of the Blight and the Blight, if I understand your theory correctly, is a fuzzy area between TAR and the &#8220;Real World.&#8221;  <br /><br />I envision a ripple on a pond.  The material world(s) do be the pond, the Bore is the stone that caused the ripple, the pit of fire the Forsaken go to inside Shayol Ghul is the first ripple out from the stone, Shayol Ghul is a ripple farther out, the blight still farther, etc.<br /><br />But Shayol Ghul is just a place where the thinness and/or the Bore can best be experiences &#8211; it&#8217;s how you communicate between the material world and the DO &#8211; not the thinness itself.  Cyberspace is a good metaphor for the pattern {it exists in/around/between all wired computers but is of none of them} and while your PC is a good place to access Cyberspace, it&#8217;s not the true location of Cyberspace, which has no true location.  Likewise, Shayol Ghul is a means to interface with the DO, no physically closer to him than any other.<br /><br />Unless I&#8217;m missing something.<br /><br />2.) Why is the world the story takes place in any more &#8220;real&#8221; than any of the portal stone worlds?  <br /><br />RJ has stated specifically that the Wheel is not sentient (in the interview that went with the e-book version of &#8220;Glimmers&#8221; ).  It tends toward equilibrium, that&#8217;s not the same as having a &#8220;will&#8221; regardless of turns of phrase.  &#8220;Information wants to be free&#8221; is not an expression of the desires that &#8220;information&#8221; experiences, it is a poetically phrased expression of the nature of information.  Likewise &quot;The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills&quot; is a metaphor for fate (which is also often discussed in terms of having a &#8220;will&#8221; ) rather than proof of cognizance.  <br /><br />The Wheel&#8217;s tendency toward equilibrium is better understood as a Law of Nature than as a function of programming.<br /><br />If the Wheel has no &#8220;will&#8221; but instead naturally seeks balance (water doesn&#8217;t &#8220;want&#8221; to be at the lowest point, it just always goes there) then this world cant &#8220;conform to the Will of the Wheel.&#8221;  If all portal worlds are all possible worlds then balancing them all against one another is one means for the Wheel to achieve equilibrium.<br /><br />Neither of these questions undermines the basic premise of your theory, which I like, they relate to what strike me as extraneous issues.<br />


created: 2003-03-06 18:36:21
subject: <b>Let me try my best to answer some of these questions</b>
body:
Kcf:<br /><br />Good point. I did consider this, but ignored it to get my theory done and post-worthy. But it is possible that there is no connection between the two. After all, how many people went into T'A'R after Malkier fell and after Rand fought Ba'alzamon? There is no one to say whether or not the Blight of T'A'R (the part of T'A'R you can't go to) advanced or fell back like the real world T'A'R<br /><br />shooganooga:<br /><br />Remember degrees of victory. For each of the Portal Stone worlds to have perfect victory over the DO, yes, they would probably have to have a Dragon in each. But since there are degrees of victory (and remember, the Dragon <i>has</i> been turned to the Shadow in previous turnings of the Wheel, look to the wot mb), a lack of the Dragon doesn't mean the DO can easily get free.<br /><br />Even more important is the corallary (sp?). If the DO remains imprisoned on one, he remains imprisoned on all. Part of winning the last Battle is ensuring the structural integrity of T'A'R (sounds like star trek, huh?).<br /><br />Justa Boy:<br /><br />The thinness is just that: a thinness. But originally there was both a thinness in the real world and in T'A'R. The Bore was a hole drilled throught the thinness in T'A'R. The real world blight I assume to be the leftovers of the influence of the DO. The T'A'R blight is actually the Bore. I doubt anyone has gone in the real world and T'A'R to map out whether or not their borders match up. Or it could be something that I don't understand. The thinness at SG is a place the previous thinnes and current hole in T'A'R (the Bore) can be sensed. It's at SG because the hole/Bore is centered at SG in T'A'R.<br /><br />The real world is real for two reasons. One is because RJ makes it clear (read TGH and the whole faded quality to less possible worlds). The other, well, yes, the Wheel isn't sentient. But neither are plants. Yet they do have a programming, a self-correcting system that allows them to grow and reproduce, and even hybernate (deciduous sp? trees). The real world is the one the Wheel has the strongest grip on, the one that actually conforms to the Pattern of the Ages, as opposed to the Pattern of some other kind Age thing. The Great Pattern is a weave combining the Pattern of the Ages and all other Patterns.<br /><br />I hope all this helps<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 21:38:05
subject: <b>Just my two cents....</b>
body:
About the Wheel having a will, I'm torn. Taveren (sp?) are they made in anticipation of an act or as a result. In tSR, when Rand goes into the ter'angreal and when he finds out about his mother, we see a long and convoluted series of coincidences. If not coincidences, then cognizance? Was Lews Therin aka the Dragon born and taveren in anticipation of the DO breaking free, or as result of it? Did he go mad and kill his family than himself while raising Dragonmount, or did the pattern use Dragonmount as an ironic prop as Rand's birthplace?<br /><br /> I tend to see RJ's Wheel as having some cognizance and siding slightly with the side of good. Otherwise, the more experienced and better trained dark side would have won by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 21:43:47
subject: <b>I like the theory, but why T'A'R'</b>
body:
I agree that the bore is a thin place in the pattern to some other place, but I still don't see why it has to be T'A'R'. For one why don't people notice the dark one is in the dream world. No one has ever metioned anything at all supporting that the dark one is in T'A'R'. Why couldn't the dark one just be kept out of our world by some barrier. Why does the thiness have to be a thiness between T'A'R' and the real world. And some of your quotes just refer to people being reborn and such which has no connection to the dark one. <br /><br />I just don't think the gosts prove that the bore is a bore to T'A' R'. Personally I like Light in the Nights reasoning that barriers just are falling naturally. <br /><br />Whatever, good theory though.


created: 2003-03-07 03:27:04
subject: <b>Whoa! My Head Hurts</b>
body:
That was a well thought out, if not long winded, theory.  That itself is worth its weight.  Now in regards to your theory...good job.  Makes since, I haven't really considered TAR being a barrier of sorts.  Once my head stops hurting I'll think on it some more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-07 09:24:29
subject: <b>Implications</b>
body:
Could this be how Rand wins the last Battle?  If the bore is in T'A'R, then maybe he can seal it for good in T'A'R, possibly with the help of Egwene. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Squirrel Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-07 09:46:07
subject: <b>T'A'R is a part of creation.</b>
body:
1st: We don't know why the Blight isn't represented in T'A'R, but frankly, we know that nothing domesticated (not wild) is represented there.  The Blight is a segment of land that is now controlled by the DO, and so by very definition is now no longer wild.  So that makes sense that the blight wouldn't be there.  This is different that land owned by people.  They by very nature can't dominate the land in the way the DO can.  Just remember, by nature, most humans aren't represented their either, awake or asleep.<br /><br />2nd: Yes, the bore itself has a physical location.  In the Age of Legends it was a very pretty island.  Now it is a pit of fire.  While this location is technically just as far away from the DO as any other part of creation, it still does exist.<br /><br />3rd: T'A'R has been described the area that fills in the 'gaps' between the worlds in the weave of all that is.  But i don't think that T'A'R can reasonably represent every potential world at the same time, though, because then the nature of what exists in T'A'R (the physical geography that is) would never be consistant.  I think the T'A'R that Randlanders can reach is just the gap between their world, and the next most close world (or worlds).  In fact, i would likely take that a step further to say that it is the gap between our world and every world that is just one choice different than ours.  Remember, in the weave of a world, not every thread touches another, and i suspect that in the weave of all worlds, not every thread (each a world) touches every other.<br /><br />4th: The Creator bound the DO away from ALL CREATION at the moment of creation.  T'A'R is a part of creation.  As a part of creation then, T'A'R is equally far from the DO as any other part of creation.  <br /><br />5th: Mierin Eronaile wasn't even particularly skillful in T'A'R, not likely compared to anyone who had the ability to reach their, atleast.  Moghedian, at the very least, was much better than she, and we don't know how many people were skillful in T'A'R in the age of legends, a time during which anyone who was an Aes Sedai could reach T'A'R, either by opening a portal or using a ter'angreal.  The fact that such ter'angreal existed that didn't require use of the one power to reach T'A'R implies that non-Aes Sadei used them as well to reach T'A'R.  Remember, she spent her life studying the one power.  Further supporting the idea that Mierin wasn't particularly skillful when it came to T'A'R.  <br /><br />In summary: THe blight is a non-wild part of the land, so just like non-wild animals, it wouldn't be represented there.   T'A'R has been stated to be the gap between threads on the weave of all that is.  T'A'R is equally seperated from the DO as any other part of creation.  There's nothing to support Lanfear being particularly skillful or knowledgeable at T'A'R.<br /><br />Conclusion: T'A'R is not a barrier to the DO.


created: 2003-03-07 10:23:35
subject: <b>Wait a sec...</b>
body:
If a non-wild part of the land, like the blight for instance couldn't be represented in TAR, than why are cities and buildings represented, they arn't wild. And I think Lanfear was more than particularly skillful in TAR. She named herself queen of it didn't she? No one challenged her. The only person we know that was more skillful in TAR is Moghedien. And also, even if she wasn't &quot;particularly skillful&quot; in the dreamworld, wouldn't she be the one to travel there in the flesh anyway. She was the head of the project. Anyway, I like the TAR shield theory, you get my props on that, but to the wild blight guy, I'm going to need a little more evidence.


created: 2003-03-07 10:39:08
subject: <b>Why...</b>
body:
do people think the Forsaken were their in the flesh. They could just have Ter' Angreals and many probly could get into the dreamworld even if not very skillful. If I don't remember some of their clothes were going wild and if they were their in the flesh that wouldn't happen.<br />Just guys stop acting like the forsaken were their in the flesh. It doesn't help the theory anyway.


created: 2003-03-07 10:54:22
subject: <b>RE: T'A'R is a part of creation.</b>
body:
I also contend that Lanfear <i>was</i> particularly skilled in TAR.  And based on what RJ gave us Moggy is the only character in the series who may be better than Lanfear (I say may because there's no real way to tell for sure short of a TAR duel, which would be pretty cool but unlikely, and Moggy did get captured there, didn't she)<br /><br />Next, about the bore having a location....quote 4 in the theory (from the prologue to LOC) specifically states that &quot;this place [Shayol Ghul] was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world.&quot;  And if I'm not mistaken that &quot;pit of fire&quot; is in (a part of) Shayol Ghul.  There is the possibility that there is one of those intersections that bob talks about in the entrance to SG, but in either case the Bore has no location in the physical world.<br /><br />About TAR being equally as far from the DO as anything else:  using a quote from your reply, &quot;the creator bound the dark one away from all creation.&quot;  This does not imply that He bound the Dark One equally as far away from everything He created, simply that the Dark One was not supposed to enter/manipulate anything in Creation.  If T'A'R was the walls to the DO's prison, it doesn't mean the DO can roam the world of dreams (something I don't think the author meant to imply) and raise hell there, but being a little closer, maybe he could influence it once the Bore was drilled and more as the seals weaken.  After all, he is influencing the 'real world' now, and he was bound from that too.  Besides, where does it say that T'A'R is part of Creation, the only thing I can find is that T'A'R is the third constant besides the creator and DO; this would imply that it is, in fact, NOT a part of Creation.<br /><br />Finally I don't think you can ignore the similarity in wording between the DO's prison and T'A'R.  The prison is outside time and space and all of the worlds of creation.  T'A'R is often described by Egwene and the Wise Ones as being &quot;both of this world, and apart from it.&quot;  When Egwene is floating around looking at all the dreams, she's somewhere that has no space.  Also time flows differently in T'A'R, sometimes faster, sometimes slower.  All of this would imply that it is partly outside creation, space and time.  So lets recap, Creation consists of all of the possible worlds, has definite space and time.  The prison is bound apart from all possible worlds, beyond space and time, T'A'R is somewhere in between.  It makes perfect sense that it is the &quot;wall&quot; keeping the DO out of all worlds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-07 12:02:39
subject: <b>HMMMM....</b>
body:
Do you have a job?  DO you go to school?  Do you have a life other than WOT?  I have read your theory and can find no evidence against it.  I will say that as a MicroBiology professor I dont think that I have seen too many Thesis's(sp) that match your in depth knowledge of the topic.  You obviously spent much time in your research and I applaud you in your effort.  At least you have found a hobby that you dont take half-heartedly.<br /><br />Best theory I have read on the website.<br /><br />AJ


created: 2003-03-07 15:06:02
subject: <b>Silencer,</b>
body:
I&#8217;m not sure I buy that The Heart of the Stone is somehow less domesticated than the Blight.  We know domestic animals don&#8217;t manifest in TAR, but everything we&#8217;ve seen of the place suggests that only goes as far as animals.  I&#8217;d guess it&#8217;s more RJ&#8217;s shot that a domesticated/broken animal lacks sufficient soul to represent in TAR.<br /><br />Have we ever heard of anyone making a physical &#8211; not using the Power through other &#8220;plains&#8221; &#8211; journey from any place in the material world to SG?  In other words, do we know it has a direct relationship to material geography, or could the Blight be a transition between the material world and SG?  Remember, the farther in you go, the less &#8220;natural&#8221; the Blight becomes.<br /><br />The DO is part of ALL CREATION so the phrase, &#8220;away from ALL CREATION at the moment of creation&#8221; by definition requires some elasticity.<br /><br />You do remember that Mierin Eronaile is Lanfear?  What, aside from taking Moghedien&#8217;s word for it, makes you think she&#8217;s not particularly skillful in TAR?<br /><br />For both the question of why the Blight doesn&#8217;t manifest in TAR, and Lanny&#8217;s skills with TAR, I can go as far as admitting we lack sufficient evidence to draw a firm conclusion &#8211; although Bobsledai makes an intriguing case for the former &#8211; but I don&#8217;t see the basis for your conclusions.<br />


created: 2003-03-07 15:16:40
subject: <b>To Silencer</b>
body:
OK, first off, Well thought out counterpoints, But i have a few of my own for ya =)<br /><br />First point: It is a fact that SG is the &quot;thinnest&quot; place in the pattern/easiest to reach the DO.  Metaphore: A pebble in the pond.  The first ripple from where the pebble was thrown is always the biggest (excluding the splash) and they get exponentially smaller from there.  I think that SG is the splash.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Blight get's more intense the closer you get to SG, and fades out the farther ya get; although never stated right out, I believe it's implied.  I think that the land is being influenced by the essence of the DO (you know, all that death, rotting and stinky stuff!), not direct control.<br /><br />Point 2: SG is the splash from the pebble, the area most intensly effected.<br /><br />Point 3: You forget about human perception when dealing with T'A'R'.  I would like to use some Goodkind in this example.  When Verna and Richy are goin thru the valley of the lost, the valley is, in physical reality, not changed (i do not wish to enter a discussion of reality vs. perception right now), but due to the perceptions of V/R it appears to have different properties. It's a strech, but T'A'R' may just be a blank slate waiting for our conscious minds to make sense of it all and then interact.  <br /><br />Point 4: Does one &quot;create&quot; the gaps in the thread in the sweater, or are those gaps a byproduct of laying the threads together...?<br /><br />Point 5: In the beginning of the series, it was implied somewhere that the only person better than lanfear in the world of dreams was moggy (I'm sorry, can't remember where, hope I'm not mistaken :<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />.  Since there is only one better, lanfear would have been the second best at TAR.<br /><br />Your opinion of the Dark One's &quot;control&quot; of the physical land surrounding SG is a poor counterpoint.  Personally, I like my splash/ripple idea =D.  I may be totally and -completely- wrong here, but I believe that Rhudien sp? was not accessable thru T'A'R', so by your logic, it should be controlled by the DO as well.  And I think that your claim that Lanfear is no good in T'A'R' is quite the pile of hoohoo.  But that's just me =)<br /><br />To Bobsledai: GOOD SHOW OLD CHAP!!  Amazing theory, very well thought out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-07 15:41:30
subject: <b>Take it outside Bobsledai!</b>
body:
In deference to the fact that I'm getting way tangential, I've moved my end of this discussion over to the message board.<br /><br /><br />http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=35060<br /> <br />


created: 2003-03-07 16:59:16
subject: <b>The Prison</b>
body:
I've toyed with writing a theory about the nature of the DO's prison - the substance of the theory is that the prison is time itself. That's why the DO wants to destroy time, thus setting himself free.<br /><br />It was earlier mentioned that the DO is part of creation, but is that clearly stated anywhere? The mantra is that the Creator imprisioned the DO at the moment of creation. This seems to imply to me a pre-existence. I say that both the Creator and the DO are eternal and timeless, and the creator, either winning their conflict or moving it to another forum, imprisoned the DO in time. In order for there to be time, something must be moving, thus a necessary physical creation. (Okay, I'm still fleshing this out...)<br /><br />At any rate, I suppose that T'A'R could be the walls of the prison, but it seems unlikely. Another alternative is that the Creator wanted to create creation for whatever his purposes, and imprisoned the DO away from his creation so that it would not be corrupted, but that opens up a whole new can of worms...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 12:56:32
subject: <b>Why the Wolves matter</b>
body:
If the wolves are strong in T'A'R, then this could possibly be why they have to be at the Last Battle - to help Rand.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Squirrel Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-09 18:44:50
subject: <b>Missing T'A'R areas</b>
body:
The Blight cannot be found in Tel'aran'rhiod, nor can it be entered from the Unseen World. That is a fact. This being a sign of T'A'R being a barrier between the Dark One's prison and the worlds is not so clearcut.<br />Have we forgotten that the Ogier steddings cannot be entered from the World of Dreams? This fact, which is repeatedly shown throughout the books, is related to the absence of the One Power in the steddings (or so I presume from WoT), and yet the steddings are part of the Pattern woven by the Wheel which is itself driven by the One Power. Sounds complex, no?<br />No channeler can ever channel within a stedding, although no one has seen Nynaeve or Cadsuane use a Well ter'angreal within an Ogier stedding like they did in Far Madding.<br /><br />As we have seen in the Eye of the World, channelers can touch the True Source/wield the One Power in the Blight and yet the Blight cannot be entered from T'A'R. Their channeling ability seem to be unaffected by the Dark One's presence in Shayol Ghul. However, anyone caught channeling in Shayol Ghul itself would be swiftly punished or killed by the Dark One or his close servants (as evidenced by Demandred's fearful and rapid release of saidin when he Traveled to Shayol Ghul). <br />While this may seem off the tracks of the theory, the steddings need to be pointed out. If Tel'aran'rhiod indeed forms a barrier between the Dark One and the Great Pattern, surely the Ogier steddings will play an important role in Tarmon Gai'don (as they did for the maddened male Aes Sedai in the Breaking).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-10 00:01:10
subject: <b>Rhuidean</b>
body:
When Rand made it rain in the Waste, he effectively destroyed the cloud barrier around Rhuidean. I believe it was that barrier that made Rhuidean un-enterable from T'A'R.  It seemed to be a weave of some sort made by the Aes Sedai who created the city, perhaps modled upon the Stedding.  We don't know whether or not Rhuidean can be entered from T'A'R now that the barrier is gone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-10 04:34:38
subject: <b>Why other worlds not seen in T'A'R?</b>
body:
If T'A'R is located between all worlds, and is a link to them, why then is only the &quot;real&quot; world represented?<br /><br />Let me digress.  I agree with the theory that the &quot;real&quot; world is the actual will of the wheel.  We've seen in previous books that the other worlds are &quot;faint&quot; compared to the real world (no quotes, sorry).  T'A'R' only gives representation of what is solid and stable in the real world, such as buildings and glimpses of others such as notes in the Amyrilin's study.  I believe this is why we do not see other worlds in T'A'R'.  They are faint and not stable.<br /><br />Hence, in T'A'R', only the representation of the wheel's will (say 5 times fast) can be seen.  If this IS the case, then the walking dead seen in COT are not glimmers of other worlds as theorized.  In fact, they are truly ghosts as supported by The Lifting of the Veil theory.<br /><br />Also, a side theory, could the Bore act as a time-cleansing conduit similar to the saidin/saidar conduit Rand wove to cleanse saidin?  If the DO is bound by the wheel and bound by time, and T'A'R' is a version of the world where time acts differently, then the bore could cleanse time for the DO and allow him to touch the world outside of the wheel's constraint.  Maybe this is how he can end time?  <br /><br />&quot;And there was much rambling&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2003-03-10 17:36:57
subject: <b>Re: In Search of the Dark One</b>
body:
First off, I'd like to say thank you for the mention of my theory, and congratulate you on yours. I like the points you have presented and agree at least in principle, with the conclusions drawn. <br /><br /> I would also like to say that I too, considered that some of the ghosts seen in CoT, were actually people from mirror worlds. I don't think there is enough evidence to be sure yet however. Definitely a RAFO.<br /><br /> I have seen some talk here about only the &quot;real world&quot; being represented in T'A'R. I do not believe this is true. I would direct you to look closely at Egwene's adventures when she describes herself as a formless blob floating in nothingness. I think she says she is among an ocean of stars or points of light that are in fact representations of people's dreams. She mentions coming upon dreams that are washed out or discolored from the norm, and describes them as nightmarish. I would say it is likely that these discolored nightmares are in fact dreams of people from alternate worlds. That would explain why they seem so disjointed. Also, the fact that there are so many dreams out there, appears to back this up. It looks like there are more dreams than there are people than in just the &quot;real world&quot;. Just speculation on my part.<br /><br /> I may be wrong, but Rand may also mention something like this too.<br /><br /> Anyway, I gave it a thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-17 20:40:15
subject: <b>How all the worlds stay the same...</b>
body:
... Ta'vern. These are divergent worlds, so how could something major like the DO prison be kept constant between them? Only by a number of freaky occurances - aka Ta'vern.<br /><br />And for the DO to win he HAS to convert Rand (which is why he hasn't simply killed Rand). So if Rand exists only in the 'real' world, if Rand is converted, the DO is freed in one world, and takes over all. If Rand is not coverted (more important than winning the Last Battle - maybe the DO will convert Rand via trips to TAR in the flesh), then the DO will be trapped in all the worlds. On the other hand, if Rand exists in all worlds, then you need Ta'vern freaks to be constantly occuring to make sure all worlds keep on track with each other.<br /><br />PS you know that the DO has to covert Rand to win - consider that world where the DO has won, and all life is extinguished. Yet the DO is still not free - why? By getting rid of Rand he has prevented his freedom. The DO NEEDS Rand. Why? Shrug. I think that maybe Rand can draw upon the True Power in levels strong enough to break the prison.


created: 2003-03-19 03:15:18
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
Can't say that I agree 100% on the theory, but Light! What a good read. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> *lol* Lots of things to think on, now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~Brandi Sedai~*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;A Cairhienin AND an Aes Sedai? There could be no worse combination.&quot; - Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-20 02:25:02
subject: <b>you are a keen one, aren't you?</b>
body:
Bobsledai, not only are your theories profound, they are well thought through, and very eloquently worded. I can't afford CoT until it comes out on paperback, so I'm lost with the ghost thing. But other than that, I was right with you and super-excited to see where you were going with the idea. I look forward to more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">That's right! An Aielman with a sword!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />I fear Perrin has fallen to the dark side <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 13:34:05
subject: <b>Great theory, but...</b>
body:
If T'A'R is indeed collapsing, wouldn't Egwene and the Aiel dreamwalkers have noticed this awhile back?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-iluv2act<br /><br />Actor, singer, and ladies' man extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 14:11:56
subject: <b>As I understand it...</b>
body:
...T'a'R is what fills the gaps in the pattern. It's the border between time and lack of time, the borderland between the dead and the living and the different worlds.<br /><br />T'a'R is supposed to be the tar that makes the pattern waterproof, inpenetratable, keeping the DO on the other side (whether this means being locked in or locked out). Any thinness in the pattern should logically be covered by T'a'R. If the thinness is of the pattern, then T'a'R should be stronger there to compensate for it. If the thinness is a lack of T'a'R, the pattern would in fact become penetratable. <br /><br />So... either the Bore is a lack of T'a'R or a lack of pattern. <br /><br />Where the pattern is lacking, tar holds it together. A thinness in T'a'R might indicate a tight-woven part of the pattern (possibly a patch made in a previous turning of the wheel, while the pattern can be used to hold the DO on the otehr side, a tight-knit patch would push T'a'R away creating a lack of T'a'R).<br /><br />I say it's a lack of T'a'R: The pattern can be drilled through, creating the bore, but the thin film of T'a'R still keeping the holes together restricts the DO's ability to touch the world. (This explains the weird natural laws of SG: it's not really part of the pattern, but hole in the pattern thinly coated with T'a'R.) In order to truly break free the DO has to destroy the unstable substance of T'a'R. Since T'a'R lies between all the possible worlds, this explains why the DO is either imprisoned or freed in all of them.<br /><br />Does this make any sense to anyone besides me?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-15 19:49:25
subject: <b>The Last battle</b>
body:
Heres a thought, does that mean that the last battle will take place in T'A'R? And that LTTs attempt failed because he was in only one world (or possibly his doubles in the other worlds were not all doing it together).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-07 14:28:05
subject: <b>possibly my absolute favourite theory</b>
body:
on whole of the TP. truly innovative and and orginal, it's awesome!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-20 20:47:42
subject: <b>TAR as the fabric of possibilities</b>
body:
Great theory, really got me thinking...<br /><br />A couple of things came to mind.  First, it's interesting to note that the fundamental difference between TAR and the real world is that, when one is in TAR, virtually *anything* is possible (to varying degrees, depending on whether one is there physically or in the dream).  It is almost as though one is outside the pattern for a moment, and can use the &quot;ether&quot; of TAR to remake reality to suit one's own will.  Objects can be created (including a'dam), other people's physical characteristics can be changed (like what Rahvin did to Rand in FoH) etc.<br /><br />Second thing that came to mind is this business about how going into TAR in the flesh &quot;takes away one's humanity&quot;.  In light of the previous, it seems as though being TAR in some way involves stepping outside of the pattern.  When this is done in the dream, the effect is limited.  However, if one goes to TAR in the flesh, one is essentially stepping outside of the pattern from head to toe.  This means that one is no longer being &quot;woven&quot;.  If it is fundamental to being human that one be &quot;woven&quot; into the pattern, then being extracted from the normal weaving of the pattern would diminish one's humanity.  Also, the more frequently one did this, the more time one would spend outside the pattern, and the less human one would be.<br /><br />I'm sure this must have some connection to Slayer.  There must be a link between what Rahvin was doing to Rand while they were both there in the flesh, and the fact that Slayer is a composite figure who can step physically in and out of TAR, especially since Slayer was &quot;composed&quot; in the Blight.<br /><br />If TAR were the fabric from which all threads of the pattern were woven, and the wheel operates through TAR to create all possible worlds, like a gigantic version of what a person does in TAR when they &quot;make&quot; things will their will, then the fact that one can't go to the Blight in TAR suggests the area is a kind of anti-universe.  My thoughts are trailing off, but hopefully this will help your analysis...


created: 2005-11-21 00:30:46
subject: <b>addendum</b>
body:
Additional thoughts...<br /><br />There are three constants in Jordan's universe : Creator, Dark One, TAR.  The Creator is the principle of Order, and the Dark One is the principle of Chaos.  TAR is the material or &quot;ether&quot; upon which those principles act.<br /><br />At the moment of Creation, the Creator made the Wheel, which is a code with rules, to weave the Pattern and create order out of the formless &quot;ether&quot;.  He created the One Power to drive that Wheel and provide it with the energy needed to alter the &quot;ether&quot;.  As the Wheel turns, it &quot;encodes&quot; TAR according to the purpose laid out by the Creator at Creation, giving it shape and form, i.e. a &quot;pattern&quot;.<br /><br />The Wheel acts upon souls.  Souls were either made by the Creator, or existed independently in TAR, I'm not sure which at the moment.  Souls have the power to act upon the ether in TAR of their own volition, and they can draw either on the One Power or the True Power, which speaks to their independence.  Even if they are ontologically independent (i.e. exist in and of themselves), they are subject to the Wheel, at present.<br /><br />When the Wheel functions properly and encodes perfectly, souls cannot see anything but the pattern it creates.  However, souls have the ability to draw on the One Power, which is the same power as drives the Wheel.  This allows some souls to do seemingly 'impossible' things, according to the order created by the Wheel.  When souls channel the One Power, they act outside the Pattern, which disrupts order.  Also, large amounts of channelling may disrupt the flow of energy to the Wheel and interfere with its functioning.  So, large numbers of souls acting outside the pattern for their own ends, not the Wheel's, and choking off the flow of energy to the Wheel, might cause a &quot;thinness&quot; in the pattern.<br /><br />When order is less rigidly enforced, chaos is more easily perceived or imagined.  Thus, in the Age of Legends, when interference with the Pattern was at its highest, those individuals who were most able to act outside the pattern (i.e. most powerful channellers) and most willing to carve their own path to power (i.e. Lanfear wants to be a demigod), became sensitive to the chaos principle of the Dark One.  They bored a hole through the pattern (the name &quot;Bore&quot; suggests a piercing of some thing) to allow this chaos principle to act on the &quot;ether&quot;.  Prior to this time, the Wheel had been using up every spare ounce of ether for the Pattern, and the Dark One was left with nothing with which to &quot;create&quot;, nothing to act upon.  By stepping outside the pattern and freeing up some &quot;ether&quot; by disrupting the encoding of TAR, Lanfear et al. gave the Dark One a toe-hold on reality.<br /><br />With that toe-hold, the Dark One is able to manipulate other souls (or &quot;threads&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, either directly or through agents, to act in ways that disrupt order further and increase the amount of reality that falls under his control.


created: 2005-11-21 01:03:39
subject: <b>continued</b>
body:
The Creator was probably aware of the potential for the &quot;free will&quot; of souls to disrupt the Wheel's task of creating order.  He created &quot;ta'veren&quot; as a special corrective (there may be others) to force the weave in a certain way when the accumulated effects of free will had pushed the pattern too far from its ideal form.  Ta&quot;veren are the Creator's &quot;fingers&quot; that fiddle, from time to time, with the way threads lie to ensure a more perfect pattern.  Ta'veren, to act in their intended way, must be human souls who are given great influence over the way reality is shaped around other souls.<br /><br />This is a double-edged sword.  As servants of the Pattern, ta'veren necessarily have far less freedom than other souls while they are being &quot;spun&quot;.  So the Creator made a &quot;covenant&quot; with them (referred to by Birgitte in TAR).  As souls exist eternally but are only occasionally needed by the pattern, they are allowed to consciously inhabit TAR in between &quot;lives&quot; .  As TAR is a realm of total freedom, it is a nice counterpoint, or reward, to the life of slavery to order they live as real people.<br /><br />It must have been fairly predictable that every once in a while, in spite of ta'veren and the Pattern, enough souls will wriggle free to allow the Dark One to act upon reality.  If this is allowed to go unchecked, the pattern will eventually unravel through ever-increasing chaos.  The Creator, by the nature of the Wheel (i.e. a pre-established code or set of rules for organising reality and creating order) cannot act directly on reality, but only through the intermediary of &quot;principles of order&quot; that he has embeded in the Wheel, such as &quot;electrons and protons will attract each other&quot;.  So he must have created an Extra Special Principle, called the Dragon, that would be deployed whenever the Dark One's influence was getting particularly pronounced.<br /><br />The Dragon is like the Wheel's trump card.  In order to be able to &quot;defeat&quot; the Dark One, he must eliminate his access to reality.  A &quot;partial&quot; victory would be one where he manages to reduce the Shadow's influence on reality, such as Lews Therin's Strike on SG.  A &quot;total&quot; victory would push the DO out of TAR completely and re-set the Pattern as total master of reality.<br /><br />In order to fight the influence of chaos, the Dragon principle must project order in a very powerful way.  He is the strongest of ta'veren, and has the benefit of three thousand years of prophecy to increase the malleability of the people to his influence.  The problem, of course, is that the Wheel exercises its influence through human souls.  It must invest all of this power in a thing that is, at its core, free of its control.<br /><br />I think that the current battle between the Light and the Shadow is a particularly dangerous one for the forces of order.  As a result of the War of Power and the Breaking and all that has happened since, the DO has maneuvred humankind into a steady decline.  The Blight, which represents the zone of reality the DO controls (and this is why souls who are being woven by the pattern cannot go there in TAR, only those who have completely freed themselves from the pattern by &quot;attaching&quot; themselves to the DO), is steadily increasing every year.  The Pattern, as evidenced by Min, feels threatened with total defeat, and it has not only deployed the Dragon, but also two other ta'veren to try and tighten up the pattern against the Dark One's control.  The Pattern is so weak right now that, if the Dragon were to switch sides and put his immense power at the DO's disposal, he could very likely unravel the pattern completely, thus freeing the DO.<br /><br />Notice that the tendency in Rand's character has been towards arrogance and isolation, which are opposites of the order and submission to inevitability which the Wheel strives for (Lews Therin, for example, had a reputation as being almost insufferably good, i.e. someone who always does what is right and follows the rules of behaviour laid out for him).  His habit of stepping out of the pattern and going to TAR from time to time, and the effects of the Taint, have loosened the Wheel's grip on him and made his &quot;current&quot; personality recede, allowing past Dragons to manifest themselves and crowd out the presently woven one.  Unless the &quot;real&quot; Rand al'Thor can reassert himself in the here and now and reintegrate with the pattern of his life and life as a &quot;woven&quot; human being (laughter, tears, etc), he risks becoming totally uncoupled from the Wheel and destroying the Pattern.  <br /><br />This is probably what Semihrage's ploy was aimed at.  By convincing him that LT is real, she reduces the chances that Rand will reassert himself and push LT out completely.


created: 2005-11-21 12:13:51
subject: <b>Further addendum, RE: Bowl of the Winds and the Cleansing</b>
body:
I made a comment earlier about how large amounts of channelling will disrupt order.  There is evidence for this in the series.  The first time we see &quot;dead&quot; people is shortly after the Bowl of the Winds is used.  Because of the special talents of the Windfinders, the Bowl drew on an immense quantity of saidar and saidin, enough to affect the entire globe.  Such a huge disruption to the universe's energy flow was bound to upset the Wheel's functioning, and thus the pattern started going screwy, with weevils and dead people appearing from time to time.<br /><br />The &quot;unravelling&quot; seems to have really ratcheted up during COT and especially KOD.  That is, *after* Rand used the Choedan Kal to cleanse the taint.  Rand channelled world-breaking amounts of the Power for an entire day to cleanse saidin.  If my theory is correct, that was bound to have a huge impact on the functioning of the Wheel, and it has.  Not only are appearances of dead people more frequent, the visions now interact with reality and kill people (the peddler Mat saw in KoD).  Also, the physical layout of the universe seems malleable, as the White Tower and the Royal Palace in Caemlyn seem to shift around in the way they're laid out.  Since no further seals have been broken, the only event of large enough &quot;cosmic&quot; importance to cause any of this is the cleansing.<br /><br />Perhaps this is why the Choedan Kal were never the answer to fighting the Dark One. But what was...  It seems to me that the people of the age of legends must have known much more about metaphysics, physics, and philosophy than people in Randland.  They must have understood the nature of the Bore if they were able to devise ways to block it up.  But we don't know anything about how the seals operate, i.e. what exactly it is that they *do*.<br /><br />We shouldn't forget that LTT was also the Dragon, and so his actions were in large part dictated by the Wheel to correct major errors in the pattern.  Maybe the Shadow was so powerful during the War of Power that Wheel realised it couldn't push the DO out completely at that point in time as its influence over reality was too tenuous.  Maybe the Wheel directed LTT to patch up the open gateway from the real world to the DO, ceding him some ground temporarily in TAR until it was able to &quot;weave&quot; a permanent solution to the problem.  <br /><br />This of course kept getting thrown off kilter, because everytime order was increasing (&quot;covenant of ten nations&quot;, Artur Hawkwing) Ishamael popped out of the Bore to screw with the pattern once again.  But it wasn't unforseen, since the Prophecies of the Dragon predicted the way things eventually turned out.<br /><br />All of this is somehow connected to Rand dying.  He has to die in order for things to end well.  We know this from Min's foretellings about Alivia, about Rand, and the Prophecies.  But not just die.  He has to die at Shayol Ghul, the place where the DO's hold on reality is strongest.  Maybe the key is just his death, nothing more, nothing less.  If the Wheel has woven's rand's death at that point in time, and that place, it's like its *imposing* itself on the area of reality that the DO controls.  All Rand has to do is accept to die there, and the &quot;code&quot; he contains, &#224; la Neo, will reassert itself over reality at that point and block away the DO's access.  The presence of the other two ta'veren is probably connected to the this re-weaving in some way.<br /><br />However, if the DO can trick Rand into *fighting* him with the remaining Choedan Kal, as the &quot;lone warrior who will save the world&quot; (aka Rand's tragic woe is me isolation complex, which is aggravated everytime he steps outside the pattern by going physically to TAR), at that specific point in the pattern, then the combined effect of the huge amount of power being used, and Rand disobeying the Wheel, will unravel reality completely.  That is probably what Rand is being manipulated towards.  Somehow, remembering that there are people he loves and things he cares about will aid him to make the right choice, to realise what he has to do to defeat the DO.  Who he cares about as Rand al'Thor is a function of the way he has been woven in his present life.  If he can remember that, and if it can reassert itself over the way his soul chooses to act, then the weaving can proceed as planned.


created: 2003-03-10 14:01:12
subject: <b>Forest Glade</b>
body:
I must admit, I didn't have time to read the whole theory in depth because I'm at work, but the quote about the patron gating into a &quot;snowy forest glade&quot; ... something like the glade Eamon Valda walks through in <i>Glimmers</i>?<br /><br />Just a thought!


created: 2003-03-10 16:10:11
subject: <b>Checking the Theory</b>
body:
While i do find the theory quite possiple, i also find it possible that Demandred was the patron.  I guess the only was to truely be sure about who the patron was is to wait until the next time we see Luc/Isam and see if his thoughts reflect on not seeing the patron recently.  if that is the case, then it is probable that Osan'gar was the patron.  if he has been in contact with the patron, then it is likely that Demandred was the patron.


created: 2003-03-10 19:22:22
subject: <b>Demandred wants to do it himself</b>
body:
The most telling point is the quote from the end of WH which tells us that Demandred doesn't want anyone else to kill Rand. He had been holding back until the Forsaken Coffee Hour, when Moridin told them they might have to kill Rand. After getting excited about finally killing Rand, I doubt Demandred would have sent someone else to do the task. Osan'gar's POV shows that he didn't care who did it, as long as he was safe. Sending Slayer to do the dirty work seems to be closer to his MO.


created: 2003-03-10 22:05:56
subject: <b>some missed possibilities!</b>
body:
There are a number of other possibilities that would fit the snowy forest glade and knowledge of Slayer.<br /><br />One is someone in Perrin's group. We know that Perrin has encountered Slayer, and that Perrin is in a snowy forest area all through WH. Furthermore, Perrin has some Asha'man with him, and he would need to hide his identity in order to allow him to remain with Perrin without any suspicion. Finally, there is the Darkhounds who circle Perrin's camp and leave again - perhaps they were chasing this Asha'man but he made a gateway leading south to avoid them, and it took a while for them to regain the 'scent', hence they circled the camp while waiting (in case he only moved a short distance).<br /><br />Another possibility is that it is the 'whitecloak' in the Shaido camp (he had made numerous escapes from the camp, but was found later - perhaps he was giving Slayer and others their instructions, but needed to retain the cover of being in the shaido camp)<br /><br />One more possibility is that it is one of the 'scouts' who disappeared after entering Masema's camp. Perhaps it was the one that claimed to have seen certain Aes Sedai in the camp (ie he was framing them). This would also explain their disappearance.<br /><br />There are others, including a few people in Mat's group, a whitecloak with Valda, or perhaps someone in Caemlyn (maybe Norry). It does not need to be a chosen, or even a channeler. It could be a DF Warder whose BA Aes Sedai put an illusion over him to hide his appearance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-10 22:16:56
subject: <b>Testing Boundaries</b>
body:
I voted for this theory on the sole reason that Slayer's patron was a person of extreme power (to have summoned Slayer and ordered him), channelling (duh!), and extreme nervousness (depite the first two, he still hid himself).  Reborn Foresaken, given new life, are denied the ability to declare their status to other dark friends as well.  Therefore, they have greater limitations than ordinary Foresaken.  Summoning Slayer, while never mentioned as being expressly forbidden, has never been expressly allowed.  <br />The whole transaction reeks of someone testing their limits.<br /><br />Woody


created: 2003-03-11 18:33:46
subject: <b>Osan'gar the culprit</b>
body:
Demandred would never have anyone else kill Rand. He's insanely jealous and wants to prove to the world that he can kill him. Also, he's not a coward, so why would he wuss out and send someone to do his dirty work?<br />No, it was not Demandred.<br />No more Slayendred theories. It's Osan'gar.


created: 2003-03-11 19:20:13
subject: <b>Well the patron must be a forsaken</b>
body:
1.First Slayer don't work for nobodys..<br />2.Second he was there in the flesh...so far only Rand the forsakens and slayer have been in T'A'R in  the flesh<br />3.what male none forsaken/Rand even knows about T'A'R???<br /><br />those three points mean he had to be a Forsaken ...most likely male most likely Ogar'nar as Demmy would wanna kill him. so i agree it was Ogar'nar...


created: 2003-03-12 06:15:41
subject: <b>Umm..</b>
body:
as you said this has been speculated many times. My arguement against Aginor/Oscangar/Darshiva is why would he go to all those lengths to disguise himself and then not order another attempt on Rand ? As you've pointed out Aginor is terrified of both Rand and Moridin. If he thought that he could get away with ordering Isam about once, why wouldn't he try again ? Instead of just saying perhaps, but not now ? Wouldn't he instead just tell Isam to try again, but make sure no-one knows what you're doing ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-12 07:17:09
subject: <b>Thanks for the comments!</b>
body:
To Simon,<br />First I don't see why this argument is especially a point against Osan'gar and not e.g. against Taim or Demandred, but I try to explain it.<br /><br />The patron seems to be very nervous. He already waited for Slayer in TAR. This indicates that the patron was quite a long time in TAR. Probably he doesn't want to wait any longer and give Slayer the time for another attempt to find Rand (which would take some time) because he fears that someone could find him in TAR since all the Chosen visit regulary TAR. <br />Maybe also the patron has no time because he had other things to do (tasks from Moridin?).<br />Maybe he has no hopes that Slayer would be successful in a second attempt.<br /><br />In any case, there are several possible explainations why the patron doesn't ordered Slayer immediatly.<br />


created: 2003-03-14 00:00:05
subject: <b>In addition...</b>
body:
Since the patron, Osan'Gar, was so worried about his appearance the first time to warrent a disguise, he must have seen a severe risk to his person to stay longer than necessary. Why would he risk a second attempt when he is even more likely to get caught now? (Since he has pulled the stunt before).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chewbacca isn't dead!! Long live Chewie!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-14 19:17:57
subject: <b>A different angle</b>
body:
(skimmed through posts apologies if mentioned before)<br />Slayer doesn't know who his patron is<br />The patron will arrange time and place for killing<br />Slayer did not see who he killed until after the stabbing.<br /><br />What if this happens again<br />Slayer stabs someone. He lights candle looks at body, freaks out, it's not Rand. Goes back to the Patron who has now disapeared and Slayer does not know who he was.<br />The perfect set-up.<br /><br />Patron - Demandred, Graendel or Cyndane<br />Victim - Moridin?


created: 2003-03-15 05:30:56
subject: <b>your missing an obvious fact</b>
body:
the problem with your theory is that it is isam killing the two people, and not luc.<br /><br />while luc is rands uncle, isam is lans.<br /><br />so, when isam thinks of killing his nephew and the wench, he is referring to lan and nynaeve, not rand.  i think that this will drastically change your list of suspects. <br /><br />think about it<br />


created: 2003-03-15 11:34:33
subject: <b>Sorry khayman89, that's completly wrongt!</b>
body:
&quot;the problem with your theory is that it is isam killing the two people, and not luc.&quot;<br /><br />Luc kills the two people not Isam!<br /><br />&quot;while luc is rands uncle, isam is lans.&quot;<br /><br />Luc is the brother of Rand's mother, and so Rand's uncle, that's right. <br />But Isam is Lan's cousin! I think Isam's father was the brother of Lan's father. <br /><br />&quot;so, when isam thinks of killing his nephew and the wench, he is referring to lan and nynaeve, not rand. i think that this will drastically change your list of suspects.&quot;<br /><br />No, Luc thinks of killing his nephew (Rand) and the wench (Min). <br /><br />&quot;think about it&quot;<br /><br />Read the scene with Slayer and the patron again; I'm sure you will very fast realize your mistakes!


created: 2003-03-30 02:24:13
subject: <b>I still say it's Taim</b>
body:
Personally, I don't think that the forsaken have any reason to hide who they are from Slayer, it doesn't seem that they'd be risking much if Moridin found out they used Slayer in an attempt to kill Rand.  Taim on the other hand does have something to hide; assuming that Taim made a trip to SG and was fully raised to one of the Chosen he would want to keep it a secret.  As we all know the Chosen all compete with each other, with sometimes deadly results.  Also, your response that Taim wouldn't go directly home is somewhat faulty, as you mentioned a large part of the Westlands is covered in snow, with trees nearby, therefore without the knowledge of where all the Forsaken are, that little bit is useless.  <br /><br />Also, a partial response to your question about why the waiting holds for Taim and Demandred but not Osan'gar.  Maybe this is just what I think about it, but I would think that if Osan'gar was going to get involved he'd go all the way, rather than stop after one miss.  Taim and Demandred both have the Asha'man working for them and so they, Taim probably more than Demandred, have an idea of how they are doing with their hunt for Rand.  In fact it's also likely that the Asha'man knew where Rand was staying and that's how, whoever Slayer's patron was, knew where to strike, further evidence that it's Taim or Demandred.  So either of them could figure that they'd wait and see if the Asha'man manage to kill him, or for Demandred wait til he uses the Choedan Kal and kill Rand himself, which Osan'gar really wanted to avoid.  For Taim, he seems quite patient and has little reason to fear Rand's survival, therefore no need to press on with Slayer.<br /><br />I also believe I found a slight flaw with my theory, assuming Taim is a new Chosen he should have been at SL. but perhaps he was excused since there are likely Asha'man who can read weaves and would know exactly where he went and many might try to follow him, kind of a weak defense I'll admit.  But maybe he was supposed to be there and got a visit similar to the one Mesaana got in CoT.  Anyway, I still say it's Taim, til there's more evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 05:18:25
subject: <b>To Jim</b>
body:
I think also that a Forsaken like Demandred has no reason to hide. <br />But consider that Osan'gar is one of the &quot;last chance Chosen&quot;, who are more under Moridin's thumb. <br />With Osan'gar's obvious fear of Moridin but even greater fear of a power battle against Rand it makes sense to disguise to make sure not letting the Nae'blis know about his independent plots. <br /><br />On the other hand if Taim is already a Chosen, especially with the power of the BT in his hands, why should he fear a Forsaken? Which Forsaken would go to the BT (were many channelers of both genders are) only to kill Taim because Taim is a competition or send someone to kill Rand? <br />Of course no one! E.g. Demandred learned that Taim send his Asha'man to kill Rand but this knowledge doesn't let him attack Taim. <br /><br />Furthermore, that one of the Forsaken hears from Slayer that Taim had send him to kill Rand, wouldn't mean automatically that he is a Chosen, he could be a powerful Darkfriend. <br />And at least Moridin would surely already know about Taim. <br /><br />Besides, as I said, Taim already gave his Asha'man their last chance to kill Rand. <br />Why should he send someone else when he thinks the Asha'man have to kill Rand, granted them this chance and doesn't know that they failed yet (or how could he know)? <br />If Slayer were succesful he had send the Asha'man in vain and the chance was senseless. <br />Why not only send Slayer from the beginning and give the Asha'man another task then? <br /><br />And to the snowy glade. <br />As I said this hint doesn't help us in any way to identify the patron. It's no hint especially for Taim because everyone could first go to a snowy glade. <br /><br />Well, Taim was not at SL and not at a Forsaken meeting. <br />But I think that's not a flaw in your theory because you said he doesn't want that someone knows he is a Chosen (if I understood that right with Slayer and why Taim would disguise). <br />The flaw is, that Taim if is a Chosen (chosen by the DO!) I don't see why he would be still afraid of his colleagues and doesn't want that they know he is a Chosen. <br />After all Taim is almost as strong as Rand in the One Power, to be a Chosen should give you some self-confident (as if Taim needs more...) and once again he holds the BT.   <br /><br />Of course your theory is much more speculation than mine. Taim must be indeed a Darkfriend (what is not proven yet 100%). He must know Slayer, how to call him and TAR (we have no clue about this). He must know how to make a disguise (also no clue). <br />Problems you don't have with Osan'gar. <br /><br />Of course Taim <i> could </i> know everything and be a well trained Chosen. But we have just to little evidence. If we had a Taim POV saying him things about &quot;the Great Lord&quot; and his training with Ishy, or something, than it would be more likely (though some of the problems I pointed out above were still there). <br /><br />But at the moment (and I think even if it's proved that Taim is a Chosen) Osan'gar is most likely the patron in my eyes.


created: 2003-03-30 23:13:16
subject: <b>a reply to the reply</b>
body:
I agree with you that Osan'gar is by far the best of the known Forsaken to be Slayer's patron, but I still think that it's possible that Taim is.<br /><br />I never said he feared the Chosen, only that a smart cautious person would be wary of them.  Remeber not all of the Chosen who died during the War of Power were killed by the forces of the Light.<br /><br />While learning that Taim had ordered Slayer wouldn't necessarily mark him as one of the Chosen it would mark him as a very powerful DF, one who is as strong and stronger than some of the Chosen themselves, and who has great knowledge of both the OP and the innerworkings of the Dark forces.  All of which would make him competition for the DO's favor.<br /><br />There's any number of reasons Taim might want to try using Slayer, one he wanted to see how closly Slayer followed orders, just think if that had been Moridin's sleeping chamber instead of the inn in Far Madding and Slayer killed Moridin, or another Forsaken and didn't know it until afterwards.  Or he knew that Rand was quite proficient with both the sword and hand to hand fighting and was worried that even four to one his Asha'man wouldn't be able to take him.  It's possible that Taim had set up to meet with Kisman and Rochaid at the end of the day and when they didn't show he thought the worst and pulled out the big guns.<br /><br />True, the snowy glade doesn't necessarily point to Taim, however, going to a snowy glade outside the BT would be as good as going anywhere else because as you mentioned half the land was covered in snow.  Personally, I think it's one of RJ's little hints.<br /><br />Taim is a DF, there's no way he could have randomly chosen his top four guys and all of them were DFs.  Also the fact that Kisman is surprised that Demandred gave them the same orders as Taim, like he didn't know of Taim's orders, is a strong hint that Kisman believed Taim was taking orders from the Forsaken.<br /><br />The only theory that really explains Taim, since he's not Demandred or Moridin is that he must have been trained by Ishy awhile ago, hence he picked up some of the Old Tongue, and certain phrases, like renegade Aiel.  When you consider that it's not too far of a stretch to believe that he would know how to get in touch with Slayer and that Taim would be smart enough to avoid notice of the other Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 06:54:25
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
as I even in my theory say, it's not impossible that Taim is the patron. Taim is the second best candidate since I also think that he was trained by Ishy.<br />But Osan'gar is nevertheless more likely in my eyes, looking at the facts.<br /><br />It seems we have to RAFO.


created: 2003-04-08 05:37:20
subject: <b>Don't eliminate the girls</b>
body:
Although I believe the patron is male, your reasoning for dismissing the women is spurious.  &quot;They (Mesaana &amp; Semirhage) don't have time,&quot; as evidenced by their missing meetings is a crock.  They could be lying about missing the meetings, and as the Forsaken meeting takes place not long before the cleansing, which happens days after Mat takes Tuon out of Ebou Dar, than Semirhage/Anath had been in seclusion for a while and had plenty of time to send Isam.  She should have been able to go to the meeting as well.  If a Forsaken says, &quot;Oh sorry, I don't have time, then you should start wondering what she's up to, not taking her words at face value!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 06:56:19
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
My reasons why he can't be a women are:<br />1) Slayer is sure the patron is a man<br />2) they have other things to do, not concerned about Rand yet<br />3) they have no special motive to send Slayer yet<br /><br />Lanfear and Moghidien are under Moridin's thumb very much.<br /><br />And I just wanted to mention them quickly, because it's obvious (as you admit) that it the patron is a man, and indeed the best reasons speak for Osan'gar. <br />Don't wanted to bore the reader <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-24 00:58:36
subject: <b>Three Things</b>
body:
1. HOW did you ever find that &quot;I am RJ. The Ghosts are laughing muses&quot; quote? I refuse to believe that you actually went through every letter in the book. If you really did ....... Seek help .. its genius .. but seek help. <br /><br />2. I truly doubt that RJ actually INTENDED to write that quote. Writing a book that size takes time .. too much time .. more that a lot of people think .. for him to spend MORE time to do THAT ..... i dunno .. i just dont see it happening.<br /><br />3. I dont remember many scenes with people laughing .. i can hardly remember important sub-plots, much less such trivial things .. but i do remember this ... Perrin laughed in ACoS when Faile was about to tell him that she feels &quot;as forward as a farmgirl at harvest,&quot; and Moridin laughed when he thought that he couldnt lose when playing both sides or whatever .. think on that ...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> A Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Band <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> My 3 Ladies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 01:00:33
subject: <b>FIRST YAY!</b>
body:
but a+b / c*darkfriend clearly proves taht it was a bubble of evil, this one containing one of the Dark ones farts, which is over 30% laughing gas. the mystery is solved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 01:03:06
subject: <b>Actually I was first</b>
body:
hehehe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> A Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Band <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> My 3 Ladies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 06:53:22
subject: <b>Ahhh!</b>
body:
But of course! I can only chide myself for not putting it together myself. But in the face of such indisputable proof, I am truly awed. Awed. Truly a masterpiece. And to those who doubt it, hang your heads in shame. In shame! This is quite obviously the solution to everything we've ever wanted to know in WoT and thus should not be doubted at all! Really!<br /><br />Fun.


created: 2003-03-24 06:53:37
subject: <b>No way!</b>
body:
How did you come by the numbers? Invented them yourself?<br />RJ wouln't know what lines would be on what page. A better system would be Chapter:#nr, Paragraph:#nr, Word:#nr, Letter:#nr.<br />In that case, no matter how the story is printed, it would give the right result. And if RJ would like a hidden message like that, he would have figured this out. It's a classic code also used in Sherlock Holmes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Eleanor Jagad  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The information contained in this message is confidential; disclosure, duplication and/or distribution of this message, without the Amyrlin's consent, is prohibited. This message is sealed to the Flame.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 08:55:01
subject: <b>Ahhh. What the heck...</b>
body:
I really enjoyed this theory! Good work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I'm glad to see a new one finally posted, and loved your humour.<br />  However, these ghosts are something I have a bit of an interest in and I'll take this opportunity to share a few ideas.<br />  For some reason, I connect them to the demise of Shadar Logoth.  I assume SL stole people's souls, first and foremost, and must have been some conglomeration of such.  Maybe.<br />  There is also some similarity to Fain's abilities to cause spectres or apparitions to appear of a couple of Asha'man he has just killed ( in WH, in Far Madding when he faces Rand).  This makes me wonder if Fain is also in the business of consuming souls.<br />  With the destruction of SL, I think a great many souls were unleashed, giving rise to both these ghosts, and also the overwhelming sense of distrust amongst the people that I seem to recall.  Maybe these souls had not been completely digested yet....<br />  However, the problem becomes that many or all of these apparitions seem to be of people who would never have come anywhere near SL.  Perhaps the destruction of SL simply released a great deal of 'life energy' or some such which gives rise to apparitions of the dearly departed within small towns, where collective sorrow might be quite strong.<br />  I can't explain the pestilential spoiling of stored food, but tend to put this one down to the DO, as it seems more widespread.<br />  Well, sorry to interrupt your humour with some serious discussion, but, like I said, I'm interested in this topic, despite how much I disliked COT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 12:12:19
subject: <b>my go</b>
body:
i didnt read the whole thing, but it was fun as long as it lasted <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> i was to impatient to write my own theory, then to read yours <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Anyway, i think the dead walking can be conected to one of the many prophecies that appear now and then in the books, im refering to:<br />&quot;The Watchers wait on Toman Head.<br />The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.<br />Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes. <br />Now the Great Lord comes&quot;<br /><br />witht the:<br />Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.<br />Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.<br /><br />Being the focus.<br />This seems to me to be another sign that the Dark one is getting closer to escape the seal.<br /><br />The first part of the prophecy is of course the seanchan, duh.<br />the second one i dont know, but probably someone of you do, since i belive it has already happened...the third part is the unnatural summer that has been ended with the bowl of winds, and now its the death part, which means its not much longer left untill the great lord comes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />and that the ghosts are a signt that the DO is gaining enough power to make ghosts apear...


created: 2003-03-24 14:27:25
subject: <b>&quot;The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.&quot;</b>
body:
WareDragon: The second part of that quote is a reference to the Seanchan in tGH.  <br /><br />Verin points out that &quot;one of the old names for Artur Hawkwing was Hammer of the Light.&quot;  Thus &quot;seed of the Hammer&quot; would be Hawkwing's offspring - the Blood.<br /><br />Further on in the chapter, &quot;Now, `the ancient tree,'&quot; Verin said, immersed in her own thoughts. &quot;There have always been rumors-no more than that-that while the nation of Almoth still lived, they had a branch of Avendesora, perhaps even a living sapling. And the banner of Almoth was `blue for the sky above, black for the earth below, with the spreading Tree of Life to join them.' Of course, Taraboners call themselves the Tree of Man, and claim to be descended from rulers and nobles in the Age of Legends. And Domani claim descent from those who made the Tree of Life in the Age of Legends.&quot;  Lots of reference to the western coast area.<br /><br />To summarize: &quot;The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.&quot;  This quote is a reference to the Seanchan in Tarabon, Arad Domon, and on Almoth Plain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob Moore<br />Bromly Falco<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Da'Rie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The 15th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 15:47:36
subject: <b>&quot;Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.&quot;</b>
body:
Just something i realized .. the &quot;ancient wrong&quot; here may well be the whole marath'damane thing .. Basically the Seanchan will discover that collaring damane is wrong BEFORE the DO comes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> A Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Band <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> My 3 Ladies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 08:27:29
subject: <b>To baphomet23</b>
body:
Interesting idea, especially if you consider that indeed Mashadar consumed souls and so maybe these souls came free after the destructuon of SL through the Taint (if the souls weren't destroyed with Mashadar). <br /><br />The problem is that the ghost were already seen before the cleansing of Saidin and the destructuion of SL or Mashadar, in CoT, prologue (I think), and it's mentioned from Elayne's maid, ch.10. <br /><br />Therefore a connetion between SL and the ghosts is in my opinion not as likely as the weakening barriers theory, but possible.<br /><br />


created: 2003-03-25 09:41:05
subject: <b>Berelain Marries a Gai'shain?</b>
body:
Hold on a sec...Did you say Rolan was falling in love, thus paving the way for him to marry Berelain? That is a very interesting idea. It has been generally accepted that Berelain would marry Galad, but &quot;man in white&quot; could very well mean an Aiel gai'shain. I can't wait to find out which it is!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 15:22:04
subject: <b>Hartha rocks!</b>
body:
How did you come to the conclusion that Berelain and Rolan will get together?  I submitted that as a theory last week, but either the problems with the web page swallowed my theory, or the admins didn't like it!  Either way, congrats on bringing this theory out, I'm glad that someone else thought of it as well.<br />Good mind ya have on ya!<br />


created: 2003-03-29 15:33:16
subject: <b>uhhh...yeah whatever</b>
body:
maybe i am just a simpleton, but this may or may not be the most far-fetched theory I have ever read.


created: 2003-03-30 07:50:05
subject: <b>Good work!</b>
body:
O Lord, that was the funniest theory yet in wotmania, no doubt. Good work!<br /><br />PS. Maybe I've missed the sarcasm and am making a fool of myself, but... um... well, as a reply to some of the above comments, the theory was, as far as I understand, meant to be &quot;far-fetched&quot; and so on. Note the incredibly smart choice of wording...


created: 2003-03-30 15:41:28
subject: <b>Brilliant</b>
body:
Yes.. .you are briiliant thinking up this Bible Code-like thingy... v. good I approve.. .<br /><br />~goO~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~g~<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/25087.gif" /><br /><i><font face="Trebuchet MS"><font color="FF00FF">C</font><font color="FF11FF">r</font><font color="FF22FF">a</font><font color="FF33FF">z</font><font color=" FF44FF ">e</font><font color=" FF55FF ">d</font><font color=" FF66FF ">W</font><font color=" FF77FF ">e</font><font color=" FF88FF ">a</font><font color=" FF99FF ">se</font><font color=" FFCCFF ">l</font></font></i><br /><br /><i>&quot;Do not waste time bothering whether you &quot;love&quot; your neighbor; act as if you did...When you are behaving as if you loved someone you will presently come to love him.&quot;</i>-- <b>C. S. Lewis</b></font><p><a href="http://web.mac.com/thapymptress" target="_blank">What I've been up to</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 02:33:05
subject: <b>What cr*p!!!</b>
body:
That mathematical 'proof' is pure stupidity. If RJ had put that in, it would have changedin the conversion to paperback!<br /><br />An by the way, I am studying pure mathematics at university, so I should know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 21:39:28
subject: <b>Who cares about the PPB?</b>
body:
Its true that &quot;the code&quot; will change ... but it will end up being the same once the new numbers are plugged in .. its like math ... hehehe .. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Of course .. you could find a &quot;code&quot; that forms that sentence in ANY book. Be it WoT or Lord of the Rings or whatever else ... All you have to do is be bored enough to find the letters in the right order .. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> A Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Band <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> My 3 Ladies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 22:25:25
subject: <b>hilarious</b>
body:
i would like to say that this is the funniest thing that i have read in a long while.  also if your code actually does work i would suggest getting serious help or a life (whichever you find easier to oobtain)


created: 2003-04-09 15:55:11
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
For those of you angry about the math, and complaining about how far fetched the theory was: I think it was supposed to be that way. This was one of the best theories I've read, by the way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> MoiraineD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-10 13:52:07
subject: <b>very good...</b>
body:
i think it was one of the funniest theories on the Board.<br /><br />and to all you critics of the math and stuff. <br />come on! it is suposed to be fun! <br />I laugh at you for taking it so seriously <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taking responsibility drains all the fun out of live and dries a man to dust.<br /><br /> - Mat Caughton<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 21:25:39
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
If nothing else, the mathematics convinced me.  This is a theory of pure genius, and I applaude the author.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-16 08:05:18
subject: <b>Bad Math</b>
body:
For the record. I do have dual degrees in math and physics. If you don't understand the numbers, study more than I have before you start whining. <br /><br />Special thanks to those who are confident enough with numbers to be able to laugh at them.<br /><br />Hartha


created: 2003-04-18 12:04:42
subject: <b>Astounding....</b>
body:
How in the world did you get bored enough to figure that out?  I doubt even RJ himself would have taken that much time!<br /><br />It is absolutely hilarious, as I am a true fan of logic and mathmatics can prove ANYTHING (even 1=2) if you know what you're doing!<br /><br />Wonderful job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 16:11:03
subject: <b>that's, um, interesting...</b>
body:
this theory has some high notes to it, but otherwise... it IS a little far fetched...not a whole lot of conclusive evidence?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-11 21:41:49
subject: <b>(shudder)</b>
body:
ouch... head... hurts from so much... math! definately not pleasant... (grumbles incoherently)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Rob's wife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think geeks are sexy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> So I went and got my own! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Te quiero mi hermano!<br /><br /><font color="#0099CC">Caboose: Tell him about how his dad got to third base with you!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-26 23:48:58
subject: <b>grrrrr</b>
body:
HOLY CRAP PEOPLE THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY AND FAR FETCHED SO SHUT UP ABOUT THE MATH AND GET THE STICKS OUT OF YOUR BUTTS AND LAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />whew that was a mouthful, anyways that was a cool and funny theory you made my day


created: 2007-07-11 17:00:35
subject: <b>Hmmmmm....</b>
body:
I wonder if axemaster1234 is the DO. I don't know anyone else who talks in ALL CAPS for an entire sentence. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />That was an excellent theory. Bordering on genius. And people-If they can pick apart the Bible and find this stuff, why not the WoT series. It ends up being about as thick if you stack them all together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 17:46:42
subject: <b>Ties or tides</b>
body:
I like your theory, but one thing i'd like to add is.  What if the end of the time of illusion is connected to the cleansing of  sadin.  If the people of Shara can have a society of  both males and females that channel.  Then why can't the amayar.  Think about it.  Now that sadin is no longer  tainted.  Every society that has secertly kept male channelers no longer has to  kill them at one point. Plus wouldn't  a society with male channelers with the knowledge of generations of channelers be of use for Rand.?


created: 2003-03-24 19:51:06
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
You definitely bring up a few interesting prospects. But I don't think the &quot;end of illusions&quot; measns the &quot;beginning of war&quot;. The end of illusions is not synonymous to the end of the Water Way. It seems all the Amayar know and follow the water way, but they also all seem to know about a prophecy that the time of illusion was going to end some day. If this entailed the cancellation of the Water Way, then it would be pretty hard for them to follow. Imagine saying &quot;I wholeheartedly follow a doctrine that will certainly be proven wrong one day&quot;... More likely, the Water Way itself will include guidelines as to how to deal with the end of illusion.<br />Also, note the very quote you cite in the beginning:  &quot;All thoughts of the Atha'an Miere gone&quot;, Timna thinks that &quot;she might see the fulfillment of prophecy and the end of Illusion.&quot; If the end of illusion implied a rebellion against the Sea Folk, then &quot;all thoughts of the Atha'an Miere&quot; would not have been gone from her mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your words sing in my ears,<br />Redwood Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 23:01:35
subject: <b>Hmm.....</b>
body:
This could explain why so much of the mainland has been bartered off by RJ to the Sea folk... if they were about to lose their islands, do you think RJ would let them just not have anywhere to base their operations?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 01:35:26
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
It is a bit of a far reach to say that the end of the Time of Illusions means the end of the Water Way. That is like saying that if the Tinkers find the Song, they will give up the Way of the Leaf.


created: 2003-03-25 03:06:18
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
I agree with Sequoia: the end of illusions likely does not mean the end of the water way. I dont know what it means exactly, but maybe it speaks of the ending of their belief that the outside world is not important or illusory any more. Illusory... is that a word?


created: 2003-03-25 13:16:17
subject:
<b>Illusory IS a word. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I think.</b>

body:
And I agree.  I think the end of illusions is simply the belief that someday, the Amayar would have to stop being reclusive and pay attention to the rest of the world. Which makes me wonder, as has been mentioned before, if the Amayar have some hereditary knowledge (like the Song, or simply legends that haven't yet faded) that would be helpful for the rest of the world at large.  <br /><br />Also, the Amayar are a closed population, much like the Two Rivers was.  A very good place to search for &quot;undiluted&quot; channeling ability.<br /><br />While I'm always up for reading a good war, I don't think the Amayar will rebel against the Sea Folk, mostly because I don't remember ever reading that they were truly dominated by the other culture.  The Sea Folk and the Amayar have a symbiotic relationship, without the Sea Folk, the Amayar would have no outlet for their art and no income, and without the Amayar, the Sea Folk would have a hell of a lot less stuff to sell.  I don't think there will be a rebellion, but I do believe the Amayar won't be as acquiescent as they were.


created: 2003-03-25 13:17:18
subject: <b>End of Illusory World</b>
body:
Habitually peaceful Amayar rising in revolt against Sea Folk governors? Possible, but rather hard to believe. Especially when the Guide said that the Sea Folk's rule of the islands was that of benign neglect. The clues to the Amayar's prophecy of the End of Illusions can be found in the Australian Aborigines' stories of the Dreamtime. During the Dreamtime, the world was a dying place and all life was drowsy. To make the world be reborn, the All-Father (God/the Creator) woke the Sun Mother and instructed her to go and wake the creatures, thus renewing the world. From then on, the Sun Mother would be preceded by the Morning Star to awake the world each day. To herald each dawn, the Goo-goor-gaga (laughing jackass) laughs. It is said that if the goo-goor-gaga ever ceases laughing to herald the sunrise, no more dawns will ever be seen again and darkness would reign once more.<br /><br />To the West, the Morning Star is Lucifer, Lord of the Morning (Lews Therin) and to the Japanese, the sun goddess is Amatherasu (Hero of the Horn Amaresu with the Sword of the Sun). Perhaps Amayar prophecies alludes to Amaresu coming after the Dragon Reborn to bring the world into the next Age. The reference to the laughter can be used for confirming Cadsuane's warning that if Rand doesn't learn how to laugh or cry, his victory would be as bad as the Shadow's victory in Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />As for Alviarin's thought of her actions making Zemaille flinch, she could be referring to her tampering with the female Choedan Kal. The red mud could have come from the tilled hills surrounding the hill of the Choedan Kal's hand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 14:42:20
subject: <b>One more pertintent passage from the Guide.</b>
body:
One passage about the Amayyar that hasnt been mentioned:<br /><br />Evey amayyar has an absolute right of passage on Atha'miere ships; a right that is seldom excercised but is always honored.<br /><br />What effect would it have on the Seafolk if every Amattar suuddenly exercisd that right of passage clause and asked for immediate passage to the mainland?<br /><br />The &quot;End of Illusion&quot; is, IMHO, the time when some protective illusion can be abandoned by the Amayyar and allow them towander the world again.  I suppose an illusion of peacefulness would fit, but I think a hidden society of channelers is more likely.  The Amayyar know something important and will move, en masse, to the mainland to make use of it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 15:09:29
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I suppose a rebellion is possible.  But what is Alviarin doing on Tremalking.  Presumably, the End of Illusions can go forward without the help of the Black Ajah


created: 2003-03-25 20:12:27
subject: <b>Maybe.....</b>
body:
I cannot see an entire people who live in peace with another culture suddenly change their way of life and attack just because of prophacy( misspell). It is more likely they are now leaving the safty of their lands and going to the mainland. Probably in search of Rand. The whole island is probably getting ready to leave. Now that would raise eyebrows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 21:20:30
subject: <b>The end of illusions</b>
body:
What i belive that she means by the end of the time of illusions is that reality as they know it ceases to exist.  the water way accepts reality as just a &quot;waypost in the path to another existance.&quot; so they would not begin to deal with the outside world, but they would in turn belive that the end of the world is at hand (aka the last battle).


created: 2003-03-26 05:17:25
subject: <b>Thanks for the replies!</b>
body:
I knew, many people would find it hard to believe that a peaceful society like the Amayar make a rebellion. <br />But we have already seen other strange, unbelievable things e.g. a bloodthirsty Tinker with a sword, Aes Sedai who swear fealthy to a male channeler or a fighting Ogier. <br /><br />For this I think it's not so surprising and unbelievable for the reader, especially if you consider that Rand breaks many traditions and old oaths.<br /><br />Keep in mind that something is happening on Tremalking that would even make a cool Sea Folk Aes Sedai flinch (other people would probably cry and tremble) and seems to please Alviarin. <br /><br />I don't think that would just be the Amayar leaving Tremalking (though a part will leave of course later). <br />Something more is happening on the island at the moment. <br /><br />And with the hint from the Guide, it's even more likely that there is an Amayar rebellion. <br />E.g. there is not such a sentence that there are no rumours about rebellions among the Ogier in the chapter about them or among the Tuath'an in their chapter. <br />But in the Amayar passage there is this sentence. Why if this is as unlikely as in the other groups <br />I think this shows clearly RJ considered this. <br />It's in fact likely that there could be rebellions on the Sea Folk islands.   <br /><br />Finally, Alviarin was on Tremalking short before her return to the WT, and with this a few days after the cleansing. <br />So she saw the effects of the glowing Choedan Kal on the Tremalking population, not the glowing herself.


created: 2003-03-26 07:41:22
subject: <b>Trouble - yes, rebellion - no</b>
body:
I don't think there is a rebellion among the Amayar already, but there still may be. Timna's thoughts being completely rid of the Sea Folk must mean that the end of the Time of Illusions does not, at least initially, include a rebellion against them. OK, there probably will be a rebellion, but I think it's more probable that lays in the future, and may come from a Sea Folk governor giving a stupid order, causing the Amayar to rise up. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-03-26 15:10:09
subject: <b>Who are these rrrrrebel rrrrrousers?</b>
body:
Don't you think that the concept that &quot;All thoughts of the Atha'an Miere gone&quot;, sounds a bit like all thoughts of servitude or the need/desire to serve left her head? I think that aside from a symbiotic relationship with them, the Ayamar must serve or be subservient to the Atha'an Miere (no I haven't read the guide or looked up the facts)... So the end of illusions means not only that, &quot;hey, we better get involved in the outside world&quot;, but that, &quot;our relationship with the Atha'an Miere must be remade.&quot;<br /><br />So, with that in mind, I think the following would make a SeaFolk person blink.<br />1.) A mass exodus would, certainly. Imagine the crowds at the port. Plus, with a reduced population, who's going to make the goods to trade or build the ships?<br />2.) The waves of Ayamar demanding their rights, PEACEFULLY, would still  be cause for concern. No Gov't could withstand even a peaceful majority rising up to non-violently express their rights (for travel, autonomy, etc). It worked for India and the Civil Rights movement. Violence would not unheard of, only sporadic and minor. And not the means by which they're pushing their Rights.<br />3.) Also, the Ayamar are certainly wanting to renegotiate their exisiting commercial relationships with the Sea Folk. That would put the economy into turmoil and threaten the monopoly the Sea Folk enjoy.<br /><br />SO, I imagine the Ayamar rushing forward to send out &quot;missionaries&quot;/recon/scouts/emissaries into the world, each with their free travel voucher, all at the same time. The list for standby must be awful. At the same time, the bigwigs are forcing the SeaFolk to renogotiate both their commercial and political relationships. All in all a logistical nightmare for the Sea Folk and shockanawe to the system.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-26 18:10:16
subject: <b>How</b>
body:
...could they successfully rebel? They are a peaceful people, they have no army, probably no weapons, no experience at fighting, no generals, etc etc. The Seafolk are essentially a violent people with an efficient hierachary, weapons, channellers that are skilled at using the One Power in battle and are unbound by Oaths, have the best navy in the world, and are recently hardened by battle against the Seachan. It would be entirely one-sided.


created: 2003-03-27 14:54:40
subject: <b>Malta</b>
body:
One reason why Rommel lost in Africa during WWII was that Germany failed to conquer Malta and so RAF and British navy could use it as their base and sink many of his supply ships.<br /> Seanchans has been in conquer business about 1000 years so they would not leave any potentially hostile base behind their supply lines but they would assimilate it without caring the price. So I am almost certain that there are now Seanchan troops in Tremalking. In fact that could be reason why that ex Athan Miere would not be happy. After all most of us would not be very happy if we found out that somebody had slaved most of our relatives and turned many females among them their pets.(Naturally assuming that at least some of them can channel and so they are marath damane.)


created: 2003-03-27 19:41:35
subject: <b>What makes you think the Amayyar are the ones living an illusion?</b>
body:
Has it occurred to you that their belief might be not that the Water Way is Illusory, but that all others are?  The End of the Age of illusions could just as easily be that the rest of the world will finally be stripped of their illusions and see the inevitable reality of the Water Way.  And that&#8217;s not even touching on the Easter Religious significance of the idea of the world as an Illusion destine to end.<br /><br />For the idea of rebellion, I find it fascinating that you have completely ignored a quote you put in your own theory: Amayar Timna, is &quot;one of the Guides chosen to protect&quot; the Atha'an Miere.  That doesn&#8217;t sound like a subservient view to me.  On the contrary, it sounds distinctly parental.  I tend to think the Amayyar have never rebelled against the Atha&#8217;an Miere because they have never acknowledged the Atha&#8217;an Miere have any real power over them.  They can let the AM appoint governors and declare themselves in charge, but the AM have no real interests on shore anyway and it keeps them happy and out of trouble.  Maybe AM &#8220;control&#8221; of the Amayyar is one of the illusions that&#8217;s coming to end.<br /><br />Incidentally, of course there are no rumors about rebellions among the Ogier in the chapter about them or among the Tuath'an in their chapter, who would they rebel against?  Nobody claims to rule them.<br /><br />I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Eastern concept of Dharma, then revise your theory.<br />


created: 2003-03-28 04:22:28
subject: <b>To Justa Boy</b>
body:
Some good points but...<br /><br /><b> Has it occurred to you that their belief might be not that the Water Way is Illusory, but that all others are? The End of the Age of illusions could just as easily be that the rest of the world will finally be stripped of their illusions and see the inevitable reality of the Water Way. And that&#8217;s not even touching on the Easter Religious significance of the idea of the world as an Illusion destine to end. </b><br /><br />As I said, the Water Way tells that the World behind the Amayar island is an illusion. With the end of the Time of Illusions some important consequences must happen to the Amayar society at the moment. <br /><br />If the Amayar now just <b> say </b> that the world sees the reality of their way, in fact nothing happens in the Westlands because it's simply not true (there are wars in Randland, the people don't care about, even don't know the Amayar or their believes). <br /><br />The only effect were that they could be glad and happy that the world sees the reality but that would be actually an illlusion!<br />Therefore I come to the conclusion that the Amayar accept now the reality of the outer world and participate.   <br /><br /><b> For the idea of rebellion, I find it fascinating that you have completely ignored a quote you put in your own theory: Amayar Timna, is &quot;one of the Guides chosen to protect&quot; the Atha'an Miere. That doesn&#8217;t sound like a subservient view to me. On the contrary, it sounds distinctly parental. I tend to think the Amayyar have never rebelled against the Atha&#8217;an Miere because they have never acknowledged the Atha&#8217;an Miere have any real power over them. They can let the AM appoint governors and declare themselves in charge, but the AM have no real interests on shore anyway and it keeps them happy and out of trouble. Maybe AM &#8220;control&#8221; of the Amayyar is one of the illusions that&#8217;s coming to end. </b><br /><br />I think with the fulfillment of their prophecy almost everything changed for the Amayar. Their whole believe is proven wrong, the outer world is real. <br />For this it's no surprize that there are dramatical changes in their behaviour and even someone who protected the Sea Folk once will now rebell against them. <br />We have already seen other unbelievable things in WoT.<br /><br /><b> Incidentally, of course there are no rumors about rebellions among the Ogier in the chapter about them or among the Tuath'an in their chapter, who would they rebel against? Nobody claims to rule them. </b><br /><br />I think this sentence in the Guide is strange and seems to be superfluous. We know from the Guide that the Amayar are peaceful, follow the Water Way etc. Nobody had ever imagined the possibility of an rebellion but RJ says in this sentence that there are no rumours.<br />It seems to me that this is a clue and that there will be more than rumours in the future. <br />But RAFO.   <br /><br /><b> I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Eastern concept of Dharma, then revise your theory. </b><br /><br />Maybe....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But you should also think about the fact that something is happening on Tremalking which is not good for the Sea Folk. And it has obviously to do with the Amayar since their society changed through the cleansing.


created: 2003-03-28 21:11:48
subject: <b>BWB and other thoughts.</b>
body:
This is a really interesting theory, and very well written despite the lack of material that Etzel is working with.  My biggest concern with the theory is how much it relies on the BWB.  I always look at the information coming out of that as somewhat suspect.  For one thing, it's not being presented as a viewpoint from one of the characters.  This suggests to me that it is a more distant interpretation of the events that are being directly experienced by the characters.  It is also questionable whether Jordan actually wrote that particular sentence because there are two other authors.  Finally, I am very cautious about over-emphasising the importance of one sentence in any theory.<br /><br />I also think it's interesting everyone is characterizing the end of Illusions with the Amayar leaving their island to discover the world.  This seems backwards to me.  If they believe that the world beyond their islands is illusory (yes, it's a word) I don't think that a clear glowing sphere is going to disabuse them of the notion.  I think it is much more likely that the outside world is going to intrude on them, and already has in the person of Alviarin.  Their Illusion was ended for them.<br /><br />About this particular theory, I don't agree.  The short description of the Amayar Guide reminds me of the Tuatha'an's peculiar form of ministry.  They don't run away to prevent injury to themselves, but because they believe that the perpetrator is harming themselves.  In other words, Tinkers are trying to &quot;protect them from themselves&quot;.  I think the Guides are essentially trying to convert the Sea Folk to the Water Way, or at least limit the violence they do to their enemies.  If that's the case, any kind of physical conflict is likely anathema to them.  There are two other quotes from the end of WH that I think are relevant.<br /><br />&quot;Very few (Sea Folk) remained on the island.  Even the Governors, always fretting at being away from the sea as the Atha'an Miere did, had set sail to search for him in any craft they could find.&quot;<br /><br />Who are they rebelling against and why?  Do the Sea Folk really exert much control over the Amayar?<br /><br />&quot;All thoughts of the Atha'an Miere gone, Timna gathered her cloak and sat down on the ground, smiling to think that she might see the fulfillment of prophecy and the end of Illusion.&quot;<br /><br />Why is she smiling, and what does that tell us about how she feels about the &quot;end of Illusion&quot;?  Considering her philosophy/religion, would she smile about civil strife?<br /><br />No, I don't think that the Amayar would rebel.  Everything I have read makes me characterize their lifestyle as peaceful, isolated, content, and pastoral.  Not exactly shackles of oppression.  Sadly, I believe that the Amayar have had their idyllic lives shattered by events beyond their control, but I do think this story line may become more prominent in the final books.  <br /><br />This is a great thread to open, too, and I congratulate Etzel on a well written theory.  I have always admired your english skills, and I think they are getting even better.  I would like to end this with one last question: What do you think RJ means when he calls the lands beyond the Amayar's a &quot;mirrored reflection of belief&quot; at the beginning of TPoD?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-29 03:57:16
subject: <b>Thanks Diomedes</b>
body:
I always doubt my English skills, if I could write in German, probably some theories would be more convincing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />But I agree with you that even if this theory isn't right in everything, it has its worth since what happened on Tremalking and with the Amayar is a topic which wasn't discussed very much (cause there is indeed not much material). <br /><br />Therefore it's cool if some people just get new ideas and something to think about from my theory, also if they vote thumb down.  <br /><br /><b> What do you think RJ means when he calls the lands beyond the Amayar's a &quot;mirrored reflection of belief&quot; at the beginning of TPoD? </b> <br /><br />It's a hard question, maybe someone else can explain it better but I try it.<br /><br />I think the &quot;mirrored reflection of belief&quot; is the Amayar describtion of the illusion of the world. <br />The Amayar believe something about the world, have at least a picture about it in their minds and this belief (they think) is reflected in the outer world, but it's not true in their eyes just an illusion, an imagination created in their minds. <br /><br />Of course the Amayar can't think that there is nothing besides their islands, refuse any thought and are completly ignorant about the world. But they don't want to accept this world as it is, and so they say that there is something but this is just an illusion, a reflection of what we think there is.<br /><br />And now, after the Time of Illusions ended, they finally accept that the world is real not only their illusion. <br />After all they had the proof that someone from the outer world made the Choedan Kal shining.<br /><br />I hope somebody understood what I wanted to say, it's quite difficult to explain.


created: 2003-03-30 12:43:39
subject: <b>What I think.</b>
body:
1. I read &quot;Rebellion on Tremalking&quot; on the Theory Post and it opened points of view to me that I had not considered.<br /><br />2.  A key issue here is that on the Island of Tremalking the Amayar know sonething important and have been waiting for 1000s of years for the big sphere to glow.  Their whole life has been the &quot;Just ignore us, we are just a bunch of folks that farm and work on our island, we are not interested in the outside world, we don't go to the mainland, and we are so boring that the Sea Folk really does not know much about us.&quot;  <br /><br />3. They have right of passage and nobody can imagine them requesting passage. The only folks that can be refused passage is the women of the White Tower. We thought that this was to keep the secret of the Windfinders.  But it was actually designed to keep the Tower away from the Amayar. Thus, the Amayar don't go out and the Tower ladies don't get in.  Isolation from channelers, the &quot;just folks that are not interested in the outside world&quot; illusion, Sea Folk that are the buffer and tool that the Amayar have used to keep theis isolation and self exile.<br /><br />4.  Why?  They know something big and do not want anyone to find out until the right time.  It was not the big sphere thing since almost everyone knows about it that can channel. The Foresaken and Tower knows it is there.  Rand knows.  They are not trying to hide it, just something about themselves or thier society.  They are more than they appear.  If they were secret Ninjas, then we would hear about the guys and hints of some kind.  Instead they are there, almost an invisible society even to the Sea Folk.  That is not an accident and to achieve a society wide illusion you need something to believe in.......like a Prophecy, shared vision, Foretelling, or such.<br /><br />5.  Every other culture has stuff.  Channelers, Dream walkers, every one has a legend or a prophecy to guide them.....looking for a song, omens, bad guys/good guys.....everyone knows something.  I think the Amayar knows stuff so important that they can not risk anyone else knowing.  It had to do with the taint.  The big sphere glowed for a long time, Timna did not feel the glow, she saw it.  Every other channeler in the world felt it immediately.  She was herding sheep and just loooked over and there it was. I think RJ would have dropped a hint there if she could channel and felt the sphere kick in.<br /><br />5. &quot;All thoughts of the Atha'an Miere gone, Timna gathered her cloak and sat down on the ground, smiling to think that she might see the fulfillment of prophecy and the end of Illusion.&quot;  Notice the &quot;Might see and and the end of Illusion.&quot;  So the glowing sphere was not the signal to that Illusion was done.  So either it was the length of time it glowed or the action that was being done while it was glowing.....uncertainty about the outcome....thus the cleaning of the taint.<br /><br />6.  There has been stuff from the age of legends laying around everywhere.  Bowl of the winds, all the stuff the Foresaken remembers is somewhere.  The tower send the stuff to the Waste and stored it there.  The Three Fold Land was nasty and kept out anyone except for the Lost Ones and Peddlers.  This island is isolated from the world to hide something special....what?  More channelers?  Special knowledge about making stuff or the future.  What would really stand the whole world on its ear and let a bunch of farmers and craftsmen influence the upcoming war?<br /><br />7. I think that they have stuff from the age of legend hidden there.  I am saying that they have all the Stun guns, fliers, phasers, electric lights, glow sticks, light sabers........all hidden in secret vaults with tech manuals and trained fix it guys.  The society before the Breaking had all the modern stuff. They slid into the dark ages.  Some of the stuff survived.  Objects of power, a few swords, the stuff in the Waste, the Crystal Sword, the stasis box with te Gholem inside.  They have stasis boxes and istructions on how to use them.  <br /><br />8. RJ studied war, was in the Military, saw what technology could do.  Think Planet of the Apes.  Someone has the stuff, and where better to hide it than on an island of people that are not interested in travel, technology, or world events.  <br /><br />9.  Either that or they have their male channelers locked in stasis fields so that they don't die, or a field over the island so that no man can channel (it has been done).  They have something more than another page or two of the prophecy.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ynot Takeit<br /><br />from the village of Uall.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 13:39:57
subject: <b>Some Thoughts On the Amayar.</b>
body:
Two points before I get started: 1. Etzil, I really respect your theory, it&#8217;s well written (until I read Diomedes&#8217; comments, it didn&#8217;t occur to me you weren&#8217;t a native English speaker) and well researched.  You&#8217;ve pulled as many quotes as there are to support your POV.  I enjoy the debate but have been burned by internet debates that spin out of control, so I just want to go on record that I disagree with your conclusions in a sprit of shared enthusiasm for WOT, not disrespect.  2. Despite the fact that I am about to quote it extensively, I largely agree with Diomedes&#8217; points about the reliability of the BWB as a source, especially that RJ is not the author and in various areas it doesn&#8217;t conform with what we&#8217;ve seen in the books, and have argued so on other threads.  In the case of the Amayar, we get more about them in 6 paragraphs of the BWB than in the 10 &#8220;real&#8221; books put together.  Until RJ gives more about them, it&#8217;s the best we have to go on.  Onward:<br /><br />On the Amayar and the outside world:<br /><br />&#8220;They make incomparably delicate porcelain and glass of renown throughout the mainland nations.  The Atha&#8217;an Miere generally receive credit for their craftsmanship, but the Mamyar do not care.  They are aware of the mainland, know the prices charged by the Atha&#8217;an Miere, and are satisfied with the prices they receive, which is all that matters to them.  The neither desire to travel across the water and try selling these things on the mainland themselves, not wish to have strangers disturb the tranquilly of their lives.  They have no reason to fear of dislike the mainlanders, nor do they; they just don&#8217;t want strangers mucking about.&#8221;  (tWoRJWoT, p177)<br /><br />And On The Water Way:<br /><br />&#8220;They follow what they call the Water Way, which, while not as pacifistic as the Way of the Leaf, still prizes acceptance of what is rather than what might be wished for.  There is a strong strain of belief among them that what we call &#8220;reality&#8221; is not truly real, but only a waypost on the path to another existence.&#8221; (tWoRJWoT, p177)<br /><br />So, we&#8217;re told outright that the Amayar do believe in &#8211; know about &#8211; the world beyond their islands, they&#8217;ve been trading with them via the Sea Folk for generations.  Incidentally, I think confusion may come from misreading this quote: &quot;the Amayar ignored the world beyond their scattered islands, for the Water Way taught that this world was only illusion&quot; (PoD, ch.1, pg.37).  The &#8220;this world&#8221; in question is not &#8220;the world beyond their scattered islands&#8221; as, out of context, the quote could be read.  It is literally our World, the one human beings experience every day: &#8220;what we call &#8216;reality&#8217; is not truly real, but only a waypost on the path to another existence.&#8221;  The Water Way doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;that the world beyond their the islands is just an illusion.&#8221;  It says that all the world &#8211; including their own islands &#8211; is just an illusion.<br /><br />Now, as they don&#8217;t value the material world as outsiders do, their relationship to the Sea Folk becomes clearer.  They tolerate the Sea Folk claim to &#8220;rule&#8221; the Amayar because that &#8220;rule&#8221; is just one more illusory claim in an illusory world.  Likewise, they seek neither maximum profit, or even credit, for &#8220;Sea Folk Pottery&#8221; because both material wealth and glory are illusory aspects of an illusory world.  One more brief quote from the BWB: &#8220;Some of the Amayar work in the Sea Folk&#8217;s shipyards, ropewalks, and dry docks, but they stay only long enough to earn whatever sup they are seeking and then move on&#8221;  (tWoRJWoT, p178 ). The same principle that keeps them as a culture from investing in the material world is at work on an individual level.<br /><br />To me, the &#8220;End of the Age of Illusions&#8221; feels a lot like the Christian concept of the Rapture.  It is a long prophesized event that nothing humans do can either bring about or prevent.  We can prepare ourselves for it and we may help others prepare for it, but either way, it&#8217;s still coming.  Hence, at the first portent of it&#8217;s arrival &#8211; presumabley the Choedan Kal activating &#8211; the Amayar disengage completely with the material world (&#8220;stop worrying about the Atha&#8217;an Miere entirely&#8221; ) and begin passively basking in the evolution of reality. Timna thinks that &quot;she might see the fulfillment of prophecy and the end of Illusion&quot; (WH, ch.35, pg.663), not that she has to do something about it.<br /><br />Either the Choedan Kal activating or the Amayar dropping their porcelain trade and other support of the Atha&#8217;an Miere to take-up full time prayer/meditation/whatever in preparation for the End of Illusion would on it&#8217;s own be enough to convince Mesaana that Sea Folk sisters would be upset by events back home.<br /><br />My main criticism of your theory is that it rests on one false and one unproven assumption.  False: The Way of Water leads the Amayar to believe there is nothing real beyond their own islands and thus the End of Illusions will involve them confronting that world.  Clearly that&#8217;s not true as they know about the outside world, trade with the outside world, and don&#8217;t regard the outside world as any less real than their own islands.  Unproven: the End of the Age of Illusions will precipitate some action by the Amayar.  We have no evidence of them actually doing anything about it, and the few clues we do have hints that action in the matter would be antithetical to their belief systems.  I say hints because on this second point we have almost nothing substantial to go on and thus what the Amayar are (or aren&#8217;t) up to is strictly RAFO.


created: 2003-03-30 14:46:41
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
To ynot takeit,<br /><br />I think it's a good possibility that the Amayar have stuff from the AoL (I think the Song). Maybe this mysterious Sa'angreal Lanfear mentiones which was even stronger than Callandor (I believe that's the Ring of Tamyrlin) or some Rods of Dominion. But as you said, RAFO.  <br /><br />To Justa Boy,<br /><br />Your main criticism is that the whole world is illusion for the Amayar. Sorry, but I still think you are wrong.<br /><br />The quote is: &quot;the Amayar ignored the world beyond their scattered islands, for the Water Way taught that this world was only illusion&quot;. <br /><br />&quot;This world&quot; refers indeed to the &quot;world beyond&quot;, which is mentioned in the sentence before; this world is an illusion. Because of that the Amayar ignore the world beyond. <br />Why should they ignore it, if there is no difference to their islands? <br />That the world beyond is an illusion, is the reason why they stay on their islands, or would you want to go in an unreal world? <br /><br />Besides, you know I'm not a native English speaker, but otherwise the right word should be &quot;the&quot; world.<br /><br />&quot;The world beyond&quot; is again mentioned a few sentence later: &quot;Tales of the world beyond, and what prophecy said was to come&quot;.<br /><br />This shows that the &quot;world beyond&quot; is a common Amayar term. The Amayar believe that there are two worlds, the &quot;Amayar island world&quot; which is real, and the &quot;world beyond&quot; which is (or now after the cleansing was) an illusion. <br />So they now that there is something beyond there islands but they believe it's just a reflection of their ideas about it. <br /><br />With this, it's clear that the Amayar will now take part in the former world beyond.


created: 2003-03-31 00:08:11
subject: <b>This or that</b>
body:
However, I perceive &quot;this world&quot; as meaning the world the Amayar and everyone else are currently residing in, and the world will be different after Tarmon Gai'don, thereby being another world entirely for humanity (albeit still the same planet). Furthermore, it is a common trait for children to say &quot;the adult world&quot; and for students to say &quot;the outside world&quot;. Even though they (the children and students) reside in the same world as everyone else, they imagine a dividing line between themselves and others. I believe this applies to the Amayar and their &quot;ignoring the world beyond the islands&quot;.<br />A sudden halt to all activities on the Amayar islands would cripple the Sea Folk's hold on a very wealthy and profitable trade, paramount to an embargo. Has RJ not constantly commented on Sea Folk porcelain decorating the palaces and manors of the Westlands? If the Amayar has suddenly stopped working in the shipyards in addition to the fact that nearly all Sea Folk are busy looking for the Coramoor, it also means the Sea Folk has a sudden reduction in the supply of ships, especially with Seanchan raids. With only so many ships left, it is made extremely difficult to make true the prophecy that all the seas of the world will belong to the Atha'an Miere. That would make any Sea Folk Aes Sedai flinch. In a way, the Sea Folk Governors would see the Amayar's &quot;sit-ins&quot; as a rebellion, though not of the violent kind. Rather like Gandhi's movement in India. In essence, the theory's still right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-01 19:28:40
subject: <b>&quot;this world was only illusion, a mirrored reflection of belief...&quot;</b>
body:
The entire passage that begins TPoD is very vague, talking in general terms about illusion, prophecy, and tales.  In my opinion, Jordan did this very deliberately.  I think it is likely that &quot;this world&quot; refers to the life of people on Tremalking, the existence of consciousness (which is what I think JustaBoy is talking about), and the lives of people beyond their island.  In other words, you're all right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  However, the wrong elements of this particular sentence are being emphasized. I believe the important part of this line is NOT &quot;this world was illusion&quot;. It is &quot;this world was...a mirrored reflection of belief&quot;.  The &quot;illusion&quot; here refers to the effect of that mirrored belief, which is the world that ANY individual experiences(dependant on those beliefs), whether they are an Amayar, a Amadician, or an American.  At the end of WH it changes to &quot;Illusion&quot; with the capital and is indicating, specifically, the Amayars' views and beliefs of their existence on Tremalking.<br /><br />No matter what perspective that thought from TPoD is considered from, or what context you apply it to, it still means pretty much the same thing.  Somehow the world at large returns aspects of what people expect it to.  For the Amayar this means that if they don't think it is necessary to leave their islands, then it isn't.  Not that they don't know that there is some kind of existence beyond their islands, but they are totally ignorant of what form it takes, and don't feel it concerns them.  They hear the stories of the Sea Folk, but they are just tales, nothing that will affect the Amayar, because they don't believe it will.  They don't want or expect it to.<br /><br />This kind of thinking can also explain JustaBoy's ideas on the Amayar's religious thinking about their own state of being.  If they believe, collectively, that there are peaceful solutions to their problems, then there will be.  <br /><br />This can also explain the wider context of what is happening in Rand's part of the world, and our own world, too, because the Amayar believe that the world reflects what people believe about it. In the rest of this fictional world, and our's as well, violence and coerciveness are seen as justifiable, appropriate, and right in certain situations by almost everyone.  It is because so many people agree on that one belief, but disagree on other issues to such an extent that they are willing use that belief that violence exists at all.<br /><br />The problem inherent in this way of thinking for the rest of the world is that they have to deal with what other people believe about the world, too.  The Amayar have lived in pretty specific circumstances that have mostly prevented this, thanks to the Sea Folk.  Of course, that has been changing since the end of WH.  YNotTakeIt's fifth point is very observant, and I think indicates that the glowing Choeden Kal was only the harbringer of something.  I also noticed that the final line of WH: &quot;And on distant Tremalking, the word began to spread that the time of Illusions was at an end.&quot; is unconnected to Timna and the sphere.  The text does say that this is the night following Timna's vigil, but something else could be happening on Tremalking while Rand was cleansing saidin, and Timna was watching the sphere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 13:10:04
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
If the glowing of the sphere is so important to Amayar  and to their ancestors who made the prophesies I don't think that they wouldn't tell what is the next step of the progress or there would the possibility that they get so excited that they screw evereything up. So it probably is in their prophesies. Like *Before the Great Sphere glows brightly in the night we must sit on our butts and wait. But then we must...*<br /><br />I think that ynot takeit made several very good points.<br />The one about gift of Passage and the fact that Aes Sedais are left out of it. It is a huge possibility that it is to ensure that Aes Sedais don't come and find out something that the Amayar are trying to hide. But I think it is even more interesting that the Amayar all have the absolute right to a free passage. Bacause I doubt that the Athan Miere would offer it to them because they wouldn't think that they would ever need it. It's probably something the Amayar asked and the Athan Miere just shrugged their shoulders and thought that why not since they thought it unlikely that they would have to keep their promise in any large scale. It is possible that the Amayar's prophesies tell about a time when they would have to leave their islands and the Amayar decided to use the Athan Miere in their little Exodus.<br /><br />It would be just great if they happened to have all kind of stuff from the Age of Legends. If it is so I think that most of the stuff is One Power related somehow because that would give them a good reason not to want any Aes Sedais on their islands. Aes Sedais would surely try to take the objects to the White Tower &quot;where they belong&quot;. The only thing Aes Sedais would be more interested in having would be Channelers. I think that Amayar could have done like the Athan Miere and sent few women to the tower to keep them away, so it must be some secret Aes Sedais would not tolerate. Since all the channeling Amayar who become Aes Sedai would have to take the Three Oaths they would not be able to tell a lie and their secrets would not be safe any more. <br /><br />It would be cool if the secret would be that the Amayar have male channelers. Though I'm not sure how they could keep them sane. Maybe they keep them under a shield all the time. I know that this sounds very unlikely, but it would explain why we haven't heard anything about their female Channelers, because that would keep them busy.<br /><br />Another possibility is that as someone pointed out before the islands *are* very isolated place and therefore it might be possible that their inbreeding would have caused that channeling gene is very prominent among them like in Two Rivers. They would not want the Aes Sedai to find out their numerous channelers and ship them away.<br /><br />I absolutely loved the idea of male channelers in stasis boxes, but I think it would be a bit far fetched. I was under the impression that stasis boxes are rather big. It would have been difficult to take many of them with them when they fled during the Breaking. Though if the islands are a place where the Aes Sedais of the Age of Legends used to hide some their angreals, sa'angreals and ter'angreals they could have been taken there by Traveling.  We know that they tried to take very good care that the Access Keys would stay hidden until the right time come and therefore could be used to make the Sphere glow. Maybe they had some inside prophesy that told them what would have to be accomplished so the World would stand a chance.<br />I for one find it surprising that almost none of any male (sa'/ter')angreals are to be found these days. They would have been very dangerous in the hands of any mad male channeler so I don't think that they would have been left laying around where any one of the might find them. I just hate the idea that they would have destroyed them all so I hope that they would have taken them to some safe place where no one would think to come to look for them. Of course they would have had to assign many channeler guards to make sure that nobody gets to them. That would ensure that there would be loads of channeler gene to start spreading.<br /><br />I think that we don't have any chances to know anything for sure before we get any new clues because it really could be anything.  <br /><br />


created: 2003-04-20 19:05:49
subject: <b>Male Channelers, etc</b>
body:
I don't think the Amayar had all the AOL stuff.  Alvarin, and therefore Mesaana, know whatever there is to be known.  If the Amayar had AOL stuff, Mesaana would have taken it long ago.<br /><br />Alvarin also went to Tremalking to do a job for Mesaana after whatever &quot;The End of Illusions&quot; was happend.  This would not be to steal something that could have been taken long ago, or start a riot that was already going on.  Most likely, it was to influence a desision being made by the Amayar.<br /><br />The Water Way means violence is unusual, but not forbidden entirely.  This means a rebellion (especially one prophesized about) could qualify as an exception.  I don't believe there is a rebellion, as it would be incredibly one sided (Either the Amayar have a powerful secret that would trounce the Sea Folk, or the Sea Folk would trounce the Amayar).  More likely, a mass exodus is taking place.<br /><br />I believe the Amayar are really in charge of the Sea Folk, and are manipulating them.  Why else would a conquered people have an unquestionable right of passage when they don't even want it?  The Amayar led the Sea Folk believe they are in charge, but could not give up this passage because it was too important for some reason.  This could be needing it in the future, or it could be when it was rarely used, it was used for something important.<br /><br />The &quot;End of Illusions&quot; certain seems to indicate a return to the mainland.  The &quot;End of Illusions&quot; therefore must refer to something changing on the mainland, not something changing on Tremalking.  The only major change on the mainland is the cleansing of the taint, thus the taint and the &quot;Illusions&quot; are the same thing.<br /><br />This makes sense.  At the breaking, the Mayar left an incredibly unstable world for their islands, and where afraid to go back, not only because their male channelers would go mad, but because of the other mad channelers on the mainland.  <br /><br />If the Mayar male channelers are somehow protected from madness, they would sense the taint was cleansed, and know they could return.  <br /><br />All the cultures isolated from the White Tower (Sea Folk, Aiel, Seanchan, etc) have a unique system of channelers.  Unless the Amayar are the only culture that can't channel (highly unlikely), they have channelers isolated from the white tower, and probably from the Sea folk as well.  The Mayar almost certainly have female channelers, and have sane male channelers unless they kill their male channelers(since they obviously don't go into the blight like the Aiel, or go mad on Tremalking).<br /><br />If the Mayar are decended from the AOL Aiel, they probably have an important task to carry out, which may or may not be related to the chodel kan.


created: 2003-05-14 21:28:23
subject: <b>Amayar and AoL treasures</b>
body:
Thanks, Etzil!<br /><br />You have done a wonderful job in opening up another thread in WoT.  While I don1t agree with tour theory, it has caused me to think about the Amayar.  The discussion by others has been most civilized.  I agree with YnotTakeit`s ideas on the AoL treasures, and also with those ideas on Channelers being hidden from the rest of the World.  Keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-14 11:25:59
subject: <b>Another thought on the Amayar</b>
body:
Etzel<br /><br />You had a passing thought in a reply, but not in the Theory:  That the Amayar may have a Rod of Dominion.  To me, this could be of primary importance.<br /><br />I`m going out on a limb with this, but bear with me.<br /><br />The Amayar have a Prophecy- when the Choedan Kal is used, then it is time to get the Rod of Dominion to the Dragon Reborn.  They may well be building ships, leaving for the Mainland to do just that.<br /><br />Another thing-  the Amayar may be a branch of the Dai`shain Aiel, entrusted by the AoL AS with many treasures, to be delivered and used by the DR and his followers, including their own Channelers, both male and female, after the Tremalking ter`angreal was used.<br /><br />Refer to LoC {don`t have the page #-sorry} where Avienda is telling about the Dreams the Aiel WO`s had about him and others.  They said that the one who was no longer { Setalle Anan} who lead to a bowl AND a treasure perhaps greater than the Bowl itself.  I think this may be another Rod of Dominion.. Surely, the AoL Aes Sedai would take great care in secreting them during the Breaking.  By the same token, there must be others with the Rods, perhaps Ogier. They`re not sitting at the Great Stump for nothing!<br /><br />It must be more difficult for a non-English speaker {that is, English as a second language} to comprehend in translation or in English.  You are doing an excellent job.<br /><br />Hope you, or someone, will take these ideas and run with them, in a Theory.<br /><br />HOW LONG, ADMINS, DO WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR A NEW THEORY?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-14 11:31:59
subject: <b>One more thought</b>
body:
What do you bet the Sea Folk AS in the Tower Library don`t find the red mud {now dust} that Alviarin left behind and make the connection with her.  That will be the downfall of her.  Yeahhhhhhhhhhh!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-26 00:24:11
subject: <b>unfortunately...</b>
body:
...the Seanchan do have an access key to the Choedan Kal. They just don't know it. Or maybe they do but we don't know yet. But when Nynaeve is in Tarabon and in the &quot;museum&quot; with the big bones she sees a statue of a robed woman holding upright a crystal sphere on one of the shelves. Hopefully she remembers this before the Seanchan find out. And before TG. She is the only one who knows it's there since the other is destroyed.


created: 2004-04-24 18:26:44
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Alviarin went to Tremalking on Greandals orders, right? Why wouldGreandal give a rats hooky-dooky about a rebellion on Tremalking? No, she sent Alviarin to see the sa'angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Was'up</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-28 21:17:40
subject: <b>I thought this was obvious?</b>
body:
&quot;This world is an illusion&quot; - &quot;End of Illusions&quot;.<br />End of the world? Tarmon Gaidan?<br />I assumed this meant that the light of the Choedan Kal heralded the beginning of the end...<br />The Aiel have &quot;He who comes with the Dawn&quot; who would &quot;break the spears&quot;. Ordinary Randlanders have the Fall of the stone of Tear to signal the coming of the Dragon Reborn.<br />Clearly the Amayar have their own prophecy about the end of the world (is there anyone on that planet who DOESN'T have his own personal Dragon Reborn prophecy?) and the glowing crystal ball is a signal to them that their prophecy is about to be fulfilled. As for what this would signify, I have no idea. <br />Highly doubt it's a rebellion as I get the feeling that while the Sea Folk are firmly convinced they rule everyone in the islands, the Amayar are one of those groups of incredibly wise, incredibly peaceful and incredibly secretive peoples that do their own thing and let the Sea Folk beleive what they want. They pretend to be simple farmers but are probably heirs to the knowledge of the AOL or something. Either way they are pacifists so any rebellion is gonna be a peaceful rebellion in the style of Ghandi.<br />Probably will be an exodus (the right of passage idea pretty much guarantees this...and if there is a rebellion, the Sea Folk are no longer obliged to honour this!)<br />I like the idea of Male Sa'Angreal's, Angreals and Ter'Angreals being held in secret &quot;against the coming darkness&quot;. <br />A secret cabal of male channelers seems silly - if they are shielded from the taint, then word of this would have spread - a way to shield the taint could have prevented the Breaking!!. If they are shielded from Saidan then they have no skill or experience in channeling and are of no more use than any other black tower recruit.<br />My guess is some knowledge or objects from the AOL that will swing the balance one way or another.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 10:34:16
subject: <b>Possibly a secret hidden ter'angreal that filters the Taint?</b>
body:
A few people have posted about possible caches of OP related items and a cabal of male channelers.  All possible, considering some of the twists we've had so far.  What if the Amayar were able to create a ter'angreal that filters the Taint or somehow reduces it so their male channelers wouldn't go bonkers?  Just a thought, not sure how likely it is.  You'd think that if the Amayar could figure it out, so would the AS in the WT, but then Elayne is the first one to make on in how many years? The AS don't know half as much as they act like they do about the OP, etc..   Maybe there <i>is</i> a secret land of crazy-on-the-dancefloor channelers ready to kick some DO butt when he breaks free.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 16:56:46
subject: <b>Wrong Theory</b>
body:
In KoD, we learn what it was.<br /><br />It would be nice to know if Alviarin took a active part in the event.


created: 2009-05-30 09:40:51
subject: <b>amayar suicide</b>
body:
what alviarin thinks about telling the sea folk sister is that all the amayer are committing suicide this is what is called an end to the time of illusions.<br />the amayar are connected to the aiel who think life is a dream the amayar think that life is an illusion.


created: 2003-03-29 15:33:35
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
that you are mostly right, but there are some points I think you missed.<br /><br /><i>If indeed the Dragon Reborn is meant, it&#8217;s more likely that after TG the Westlands are not longer divided through Rand but an unity because &#8220;the Prophecies said he would bind together the people of every land -&#8217;The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south&#8217;&#8221; (ACoS, ch.34, pg.592). </i><br /><br />This last quote fits very well with cutting the we(s)tlands in two. The Borderlands shall he tie to the Aiel, and the Seanchan shall be bound to the south (Sea Folk or Illian/Altara(/Tear)).<br /><br />OK, it's just one point, but maybe I'll come up with more if I get to read the theory again... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Btw, I'm first... yippie!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-03-29 15:53:02
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Well, I think that you do make some good points, but I just can't bring myself to believe that the Tar Valon battle would be referred to as &quot;the great battle&quot;. It just doesn't make sense to me. I see TG as more of a crippling of the DOs power, but there's still some strife and war in the world. And how could some of the other battles in the books not be referred to as &quot;great battles&quot; either? Falme? Dumai's Wells? I think they would be of similar scale to the TV battle. <br /><br />But overall I think that you did a great job with this theory, and I agree with most of your assumptions.


created: 2003-03-29 17:18:14
subject: <b>A well presented chain of logic</b>
body:
However, I think you've mis-identified the &quot;Great Battle&quot; referred to in Nicola's Foertelling.<br /><br />IMHO, the Battle for the White Tower is NOT going to be a &quot;Great Battle&quot; or even on a scale similar to Dumai's Wells or the Rand's conquests of Illian, Cairhien and Caemlyn.  The removal of Taim from control of the BT will be a far greater battle than that for the White Tower.<br /><br />I'm not sure exactly what the &quot;Great Battle&quot; will be, but it will be against the forces of the Shadow -- a New Tolloc War, for example.  I suspect that it will involve Rand's apparent Death in a large victory against Shadowspawn at, or near, Shayol Gul that everyone mistakes for T'G and that is the reason for the Funeral image in the Foretelling.<br /><br />One minor quibble with the presentation:  Your use of &quot;Resident Aes Sedai&quot; to mean the Rebel Aes Sedai, commonly referred to as the &quot;Salidar Aes Sedai&quot; is a bit confusing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-29 18:44:47
subject: <b>the great battle</b>
body:
The Great Battle referred to here is most likely the last battle.  What would make a battle at Tar Valon any different than the other signifigant battles we have seen. For example the battle when the shaido fought Rand's Aiel.  That battle united the remaining clans behind Rand, and involed hunreds of thousands of men. That battle was one largest and most improtant battles since Hawkwing.  There have been many &quot;great battles fought&quot; already which would be just as important as any battle @ Tar Valon. <br /><br />Moreover who says The Last battle is the end of wars.  it is simply the last battle against shadow.  No doubt if light is victorious there will be a power vacum and wars to establish new nations.  therefore the &quot;great battle would be  done, but the world [would not be] done with battle.&quot;  In my opion the strife after the last battle will be how the world will be broken after the last battle as prophecied.


created: 2003-03-29 19:31:33
subject: <b>Good Theory, I hate You</b>
body:
This is a great theory and I buy it but NOW you must die.  This has really got me excited for the next book which will most likely have the best battle scence yet.  I wasn't even thinking that the battle for TV who happen soon but with all you've pointed out, it's OOOHHHH so close.  Thanks a lot, jerk. I, like all of you, must wait two more years for the next book(shakes head and begins to sob).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 01:06:37
subject: <b>I could believe this if...</b>
body:
if the Seanchan learn how to Travelfrom Semirhage, show up at TV, with their whole Army, including the people that were still in Seanchan, and halfway through the battle, with the Aes Sedai losing miserably, Rand shows up, with the good half of the BT, the Band of the Red Hand, and his Aiel army at his back, to save Egwene, and as the tides turn, Taim shows up, with his half, and joins the Seanchan. Mesaana, Semirhage, and Aran'gar then reveal themselves to fight, Nynaeve and Rand link, using Callandor, and destroy the linked Forsaken, and then, just as they are about to turn their power to the Seanchan Army, the Shaido Travel in, being led by Sevannadred, and then Perrin, who still hasn't rescued Faile, charges in, somehow using the Tower of Genjhi as a shortcut and picking up Moiraine on the way, who has become even more powerful in the power than Alivia, and happens to have an access key to both Choedan Kal with her(one of the things she asked the snakes for), and links with Rand, and then they wipe out the whole Shaido Army before collapsing from sheer exhaustion. Perrin in the meantime, is searching through the remains of the Shaido to find Faile, and finds her untouched, because Rolan happened to find a portable stedding, and so he's gaurding her, with the rest of the Brotherless, who decided that they believed Rand was the Car'a'carn after all, and so they join in the battle against the Seanchan, and are just enough to break what had been an even battle. The good guys win, and are very tired, when suddenly, a horde of Trollocs come out of a gateway, created by Sevannadred, because she ran like a panzy when Moiraine showed up, and they start working the good guys, whose channellers aren't able to channel because of exhaustion. Then, the Borderlanders show up, with Elayne, and the Queen's Guard, and ram into the Shadowspawn from behind, and Elayne and Avhienda link, and beat down Sevannadred, and the armies of Light triumph over the Army of Darkness(hehe), and the secret identity of Demandred is revealed, and the woman who channels saidin is finally killed, and the world is much better off, except that it's extremely weakened soon before TG, and just because the different groups saved each others lives countless times, they still don't get along with each other.<br /><br />Sorry, but since this is not very likely to happen(except for the people not liking each other part), I don't think I can believe this. But if the battle of TV is the &quot;great battle&quot;, I can assure you, it will go down something like this.<br /><br />Sorry got a little carried away there, and it's sort of midnight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 01:29:18
subject: <b>umm..</b>
body:
you make some good points, but the whole 'more aes sedai than ashaman' stuff is totally not true... i think the during CoT somewhere, one of Logain's bonded aes sedai say that there are roughly the same number of ashaman as aes sedai in the tower... not to say that loads and loads of new women are affiliated with the Tower through Egwene's efforts, but the # of full Aes Sedai i think are roughly along the lines ashaman... i don't have my books at school with me (because i would never get any work done), but if someone could look that up for me, i think that would be important to the plot line...<br /><br />also, i get the feeling that the BT being rent in blood or whatever will be a result of the war between's logain's ashaman and taim's ashaman, not someone attacking the BT... aes sedai will walk the grounds once logain wins...<br /><br />k, goodbye


created: 2003-03-30 01:50:01
subject: <b>not likely, IMO</b>
body:
The main problems I see is that there is unlikely to be a great battle for the White Tower.  Sooner or later the AS will work things out on their own, at worst the Seanchan will appear forcing them to work together.  Also I think the fact that the Foretelling states that there will be more battles after this one is pretty would be too obvious, cause everyone is expecting TG, if nothing else.  Whereas if it's a reference to TG everyone would be expecting peace, therefore it would make sense that the Foretelling mentions more battles.  Everything else seems to deal with after TG, which would make sense if the &quot;great battle&quot; was TG.  &quot;The land divided by the return&quot; is certainly a reference to the Seanchan and while it could be considered fulfilled even now, I believe that there will be something of a permanence to it after Rand's meeting with the Seanchan, assuming he avoids capture, or after he's freed.  Rand will give them the land they currently hold in order to get their support for TG.  Next, &quot;the guardians balance out the servants&quot; this is unlikely to happen before TG and unlikely to happen soon after.  &quot;The future teeters on the edge of a blade&quot; would make sense assuming Rand does give away land to the Seanchan, especially since most of it isn't his to give, causing dissent inside the Seanchan lands.<br /><br />All in all a good theory, I just don't happen to agree with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 02:06:34
subject: <b>The Blademaster's Post</b>
body:
I just had to say that I thought his (or her) post was really funny. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 04:28:21
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
To Floffe,<br />That's right, but as I pointed out the Seanchan will serve Rand before TG and so the Westlands are not longer divided.<br /><br /><br />To Jaric Mondoran,<br />First of all, since Nicola's foretelling is in LoC, it can't be a battle before this book (e.g. Falme, Tear, Cairhien, Caemlyn etc.). <br /><br />As I pointed out it makes more sense that this foretellling and the Wise Ones dream (which is closely connected) refer to a time before TG (and since there will be more battles some time before TG)<br /><br />I don't think Dumai's Wells, Illian, the Seanchan War or even the Cleansing (in CoT we have no big battle...) are meant because they had nothing to do with all other passages of the foretelling, the Aes Sedai, the Asha'man and probably the Seanchan (but a TV battle has). <br /><br />Besides, as I showed the TV battle will be greater.   <br />The TV battle will be &quot;the great battle&quot; before TG which probably result in an alliance between all good forces in the end (therefore the battle is important).    <br /><br /><br />To Weird Harold,<br />I thought Resident Aes Sedai was a common term, but Rebel Aes Sedai were better, that's right.<br /><br />And about the GB look my reply to Jaric. As I said the battle of the TV must be before the Black Tower battle because the WT is whole again then (as Elaida foretells).  <br />And with this they will be stronger than the Asha'amn not ballanced. After a BT battle the Asha'man will be even more weak. So the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man only ballance out after the TV battle but before the BT battle. For this Nicola refers to the WT battle IMO. <br /><br /><br />To flyingfrog999,<br />Look at my replies above and at my theory. The foretelling must be about the time before TG.<br />With the Last Battle must come result. Of course it's possible that there are still some Trollocs fighting or even men. <br />But I can't believe that the future can still be bad or good (and we probably never get to know it) as the future-blade passage indicates. <br /><br /><br />To cougar10, <br />Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To The Blademaster,<br />as Egwenes dream, the war plans of the Seanchan and the Raken show, the Seanchan will come to TV. <br />If it's impossible it would be rather stupid to plan an attack. And in Egwenes dream we see the result. <br />I believe that the Seanchan will in fact learn how to make gateways (maybe through Rand).<br /><br /><br />To imfunny,<br />I also think that Logain will attack Taim and the BT. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my theory.<br />I believe that both Aes Sedai camps together are more than the Asha'man. And consider that also the Asha'man are splitted in two fractions.<br />Therefore I think the Seanchan will win, capture and kill Aes Sedai. With this there will be a balance between the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai (both quite weak). <br />But later there will be a great union of the WT (through Rand's help) and the WT will be stronger than ever (probably even with Damane and maybe Sul'dam). And then the BT battle happens, the balance is away.<br /><br /><br />To Jim,<br />I think exactly in the other direction. <br />The foretelling tells us about other battles after the great battle and with this hint it's clear that TG is probably not meant. But in my replies above I said a bit more about the GB.<br />Consider that the whole settin, the whole plot prepares a great battel at TV. RJ made the Aes Sedai even invent cuendillar to hold their army with selling it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />We have one of the Great Captians around. <br />Many groups, especially the Seanchan, will be involved.<br />In CoT we see that Elaida is again becoming stronger (after beating Alviarin...). With Egwene as prisoner, Elaida (who is still abit corrupted through Fain's influence) will not likely make a truce with the Rebels and vice versa. <br /><br />I think we can await something that wasn't already in WoT. <br />A big battle with many differnt fractions and One power strikes before and later in the city of Tar Valon, and finally at the WT, much bigger than Caemlyn or Illian. Seanchan soldiers fighting against Garth Bryne's men, Sul'dam &amp; Damane against Aes Sedai &amp; Warders, right in the middle the elite troups: the Ogier Deathwatch Guards against the Younglings, the air full of Rakens and striking lightnings...<br />Chaos rules.<br /><br />Well, I don't know if everything happens exactly so but I'm quite sure that RJ hadn't prepared the whole setting since many books and won't let it end in great battle.<br /><br /><br />At all,<br />Thanks for comments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-30 07:09:25
subject: <b>ideas</b>
body:
righty-o, first male channelers are no ALL asha'man, there ARE dedicated + soldiers, so the numbers of 'guardians + servants' are prob not evenly matched quite yet,<br /><br />The Seanchan, well Aviendah did open a gateway into seanchan which 2 damane  sul'dam did see....<br /><br />The future teeters on the edge of a blade<br />-i'm thinking sword, either lanandgaladmordethshaidar haran  (think of the possibilites between them)<br />OR Callandor. ya never know.<br /><br />if anything comes of this email me at S_musselwhite@yahoo.com<br /><br />or else i prob wont check if peeps appreciate my input <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 14:11:12
subject: <b>edge of the blade</b>
body:
In Nicola's prophecy, the Great Battle is Rand's massive battle with Shaido (about 1 million involved under arms at least).  Also, 'Great Battle done&quot; refers to some conflict in the past, not the future.<br />The edge of the blade comment is directed at whether or not Perrin decides Rand has been kidnapped.  Perrin's decision is based primarily on analysis that Rand would not leave his sword, i.e. HIS BLADE, behind if Rand has left for no reason.  If Perrin had not followed, Rand would either be in Sevanna's hands or Mesaana's.<br />For the record, I think that Foreteillings should be read as A. sticking to the same subject (in this case Rand) and B. being temporaly as cohesive as possible (near-future at beginning means reading all events in Foretelling as occuring in near-future).


created: 2003-03-30 16:50:12
subject: <b>or</b>
body:
that battle you just drew up might be a part of TG, considering that all major players will most likely be present at that as well.<br />I don't know.<br />It just hit me.<br />Probably wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 18:04:23
subject: <b>just my opinion</b>
body:
I always thought &quot;he who is dead yet lives&quot; referred to Fain/mordeth or possibly mat since scales are involved


created: 2003-03-30 18:11:25
subject: <b>The Seanchan will capture the rebel Aes Sedai</b>
body:
When reading this post an idea came to me... what if Egwene being captured is a *good* thing? What if the Seanchan capture and collar the rebel Aes Sedai and force them to attack the Tower? Egwene's capture may save her from that fate and force the Tower to heal itself against the common threat.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Manowar, born to live forevermore... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Bound to conquer every shore... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Man<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />waR <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 18:24:21
subject: <b>all i want to say</b>
body:
ok i want to say so much, however i wont. i want to say i didnt agree with you in the begining i thoght the great battle was the last battle. but after reading this i agree with you 99.9% your theory is the only one to trun me around the hole way like that. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There are three kinds of people in this world. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> 80 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Those who can count and those who cant.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> 80<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 19:56:04
subject: <b>Three on the boat</b>
body:
&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade&quot;<br /><br />I disagree with your analysis for one reason. I took three on a boat to mean Aviendha, Elayne, and Min (like you did) however, none of them have anything to do with the White Tower. Sure Elayne is Aes Sedai but she is pretty occupied else where and likely to stay there. I can't believe this prophecy is all about the White Tower but it starts by mentioning Rand and his girls. <br /><br />I would also like to comment that &quot;The future teeters on the edge of a blade&quot; does not have to refer to after the great battle. I took it to mean right now the future teeters due to these thing that were mentioned in the first part of the prophecy.


created: 2003-03-31 05:50:09
subject: <b>cool theory but</b>
body:
One tiny little comment. You said Alviarin destroyed a gateway near Ebou Dar; i thought it was Elayne, preventing<br />the damane from reading residues of gateway and learning how to Travel after the fleeing Kin/Aes sedai/ Windfinders?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Seek knowledge from wherever you can, even unto China&quot;. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 06:11:37
subject: <b>About the tense used int the foretelling</b>
body:
A foretelling is of course about the future (after LoC, ch.14 in this case). <br />Though Nicola speaks in the present tense, and this seems to confuse some people.<br /><br />You must imagine that Nicola sees a picture and tells what she sees: Four people are on a boat.<br /><br />Then she tells us about the time, when this is happening: They are in the boat, while the Great Battle is done or after the Great Battle. <br />And she tells us that there will be more battles<br /><br />Then she tells about other circumstances after the GB, at the time when the four people are in the boat: <br />The Westlands are still divided (if through Rand or the Seanchan), and the Asha'man are as strong as the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />The last sentence (and the connection to the Wise Ones dream) announces that the future in this picture, especially for this four people on the boat (probably also through the result of the GB and the other circumstances), is very unclear and dangerous.


created: 2003-03-31 06:20:59
subject: <b>To damerflinn</b>
body:
You are right. Silly mistake! <br />Elayne destroys the gateway after the flight with the Kin. <br />I had Aviendha in mind, but she only destroys the gate after they leave Ebou Dar, what Moridin watches.<br /><br />Thanks to make that clear, damerflinn!


created: 2003-03-31 10:57:55
subject: <b>great job...consider this while your at it</b>
body:
I almost completly agree with this theory. In CoT we see many battles being set up and I think the battle for the tar Valon will be one of the biggest.<br /> <br />  Now one thing from this theory that I want to discuss is Rand on a boat with his three weomen. This is purely speculation on my part but, at the end of CoT we see Rand being set up by Suroth and Semirrhage, the queen of pain. When these two nasties get their hands on the Dragon Reborn, I don't think it will be a very pretty picture.  If they try to break Rand or control him with the male a'dam, that is going to be felt along his bond by Min, Avienda and Elayne, not to mention Allana as well.  If that happens, these weomen will do anything to save Rand. and I think the boat trip describes the rescue of Rand, and it could be possible that he will be injured or broken in such a way, and possibly in public, that many will think he is dead. Plus I think It could possibly cause LTT to maybe take over a bit more, temporarily at least.<br /><br />   Like I said, this is purely speculation on my own part. I am reading through the series for the umpteenth time and every single time I catch bits and pieces and insinuations that I hadn't caught before. Maybe I will get the facts and quotes together and put together a theory of my own, or if someone wants to take this theory of mine and run with it, thats cool too. <br /><br />   of course all these theories are nothing but speculation, but they make it so much more interesting in anticipation of future books.  If we didn't come up with these theories, how boring would that be.<br /><br />   Anyways great job on a great theory. I guess we will all have to RAFO and hope RJ doesn't have a stroke or some other horrible thing in the next few years.<br /><br />                    wolf brother of the Pacific Northwest,<br /><br />                                 Northernwolf1029


created: 2003-03-31 12:02:25
subject: <b>I agree with you, Etzel</b>
body:
..and I like this theory.  I have always believed the battle specified in Nicola's Foretelling <i>is not</i> TG.  I also believe Rand is wrong in his assumption that he will die in the last battle.  <br /><br />One thing that needs to happen to make this work is to get Elayne's plot thread resolved.  I can't think of a reason for her to get up there near Tar Valon.  Her Moridin kidnap plot should be resolved before this, so we may not see this battle in book 11.  <br /><br />There comes a point in a giant story like this where it looks like all hope is lost for the protagonists.  We haven't seen this so far, but if Rand were to die before TG that would be it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 13:09:22
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
I think it might be possible that the Last Battle will happen at Tar Valon. And it's gonna be huge with all parties involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> STOOSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />We are the grease that keeps the wheel spinning<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> I'm just a squirrel trying to bust a nut <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> GRIMACE IS A TASTE-BUD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 20:32:57
subject: <b>Great Battle</b>
body:
Have we forgotten RJ's ominous warning that the Blight's silence meant Shadowspawn are gathering strength for a massive upcoming invasion of the Westlands? A Trolloc flood would complicate matters at Tar Valon, what with the Rebel Aes Sedai, Tower Aes Sedai, Seanchan! Even Pedron Niall thought that Tarmon Gai'don would come immediately after a Trolloc Wars style invasion from the Blight.<br />What about Dragonmount? Verin has been hinting at how Dragonmount has been rumbling lately. A volcano erupting onto an important battle would definitely bring in high casualties.<br />While Tar Valon may have been the battle that Nicola talked about, I still think it is Tarmon Gai'don itself, as the forces of the Light still need to clean up the world of the remnants of the Shadow. This Cleansing of the World would mean some battles being fought after Tarmon Gai'don. Rather like when Lews Therin sealed the Bore and went mad, but the world had to deal with remnants of the Shadow War until the Breaking made that moot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 21:38:22
subject: <b>About Foretelling</b>
body:
Fist you make a lot of good points but I would like to point out somthing that is obvious to me.<br /><br />It regards Elaida Fortelling, and before I make my point I would like to point out that a fortelling is always true but. It usually is not understood until after the event happens. Elaida fortellings seem to be much clearer. Now I believe that in the World of the wheel of time there are two different ways that a person can foretell. For example after Mesaana heard of Elaidas foretelling she says &quot;Strange that she should be so clear and so erratic at the same time. It was always a rare Talent, and most who had it spoke spoke so only poets could understand. Usually until it was too late to matter, at least. Everthing always became clear then.&quot; ACOS p33. <br /><br />This implies that foretellings were usually almost imposible to understand, but Elaida believes that she already knows the meaning of this foretelling. This brings me back to my point about two types of foretelling. I propose that the first and more common form of fortelling fortells great wide ranging events in a poetical and confusing nature. <br /><br />With an example of this being Nicoles foetelling in LOC &quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade&#8221;. Now to an individual character this would make no scence at all. However on the other hand Elaidas fortelling seems to make perfect scence. But read carefully. <br /><br />&#8220;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.&quot;<br /><br />The first sentence cannot be mean anything other than what it means. The second sentence is the same and can only mean what it says but you will notice that Elaidas name is not mentioned. However the last sentence is not so simple, now from Elaida point of view it means that the Whait Tower will destroy the Black Tower. But it is not that simple for a start Aes Sedai already walk the Black Towers grounds and there are plenty of other ways that it could be &quot;...rent in blood and fire...&quot;. The most likely being a battle between Logain and Taim. and lastly being rent in blood and fire does not mean that it will be destroyed.<br /><br />Now taking all this in you will notice that Elaidas foretelling is anything but poetic. It menions specific places, titles and names. and it gives the appearance of  foretelling more than it possibly does.<br /><br />I believe that the pattern inserts the second type of foretelling into the pattern when it wonts to nudge a person in a very definate direction that may not be in that persons best interests. And it is fare to say that Elaidas foretellings although more specific are more missleading.  The foretelling above is not the first time Elaida has been misslead by what she has foretode. Somewhere (I can not remember were) Elaida states that see had a foretelling that the royal line of Andor would a esential to the worlds servival in the last battle, and we know that she was right, Rands mother was the daughter heir.<br /><br />So thats all I have to say. It seems to me that there are to deferent types of foetelling in the world but I could be wrong.


created: 2003-03-31 23:33:33
subject: <b>Good theory, but I still think it refers to the Last Battle and beyond!</b>
body:
<br />Since I refuse to buy COT until the illustrated cover comes to Australia, I haven't yet had a chance to read it. However, at this point of time I have to disagree with the current theory...although a very good one.<br /><br />I know that the beginning of the foretelling is about Elayne, Avienda, Min and Rand as most do. (ie, &quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. But I don't know how this bit ties in with the rest of the fortelling.<br /><br />The rest of the foretelling (ie,  The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade&#8221;.), I feel at this stage is about the last battle, and that after this battle the world will be broken up into two. The West being controlled by the Seanchan armies (the return), and the East controlled by the Asha'man armies (the dedicated). As for the Aes'Sedei (the servants), they will be equally broken up into the ones leashed by the Seanchan, and the ones fighting alongside the Asha'man. With the winner uncertain.


created: 2003-04-01 18:06:15
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
I agree with most of the original theory, but the only problem I have is that most people assume that balance means equal numbers.  As it was mentioned earlier, men are generally stronger than women in the power about proportionately to physical strength.  This would mean that it wouldnt take (numerically) nearly as many guardians to balance the servants in the power.  <br /><br />I am skeptical though about identifying all the characters on the boat so casually as the three women in love with Rand.  The lion sword could be Gawyn, the one who sees beyond could be Egwene, and the dedicated spear could be anyone who is Aiel.  I am not saying it is so, but it seems a little too easy to assume anything about who the people are...likewise, he who is dead yet lives is could be a lot of people....and why is he separated from the three on a boat???  Just curious....


created: 2003-04-02 06:10:47
subject: <b>As I said</b>
body:
you must connect the foretelling with the Wise Ones dream. <br />They tell Rand about a dream with him and three women on a boat (the same scene). <br />It's obvious that only Rand's girls can be the three especially with Nicola's description.<br />I only say who the people on the boat are and when they are on the boat (after Tar Valon battle, before TG, probably even before the Black Tower battle)<br /><br />But I also don't know what exactly the boat image means. <br />I think the idea that it has to do with the male a'dam and the result which it has on the bonded women is interesting.<br />The hint that it seems that the three women are closely together and Rand a bit seperated though all in the same boat is interesting, too. <br />Maybe it's another hint that it has something to do with the bonding.<br /><br />In any case, to expect a funeral scene with three girls and Rand on a boat is absolutly wrong in my opinion. <br />As I said, it would be a real plagiarism, to copy a scene which almost everybody knows from the King Arthur saga. <br />If RJ uses old, well known stories, he changes them, so that they are not obviously copied e.g. Rand must take Callandor in the Stone of Tear. RJ had never written a scene in which Rand pulls a sword out of a stoneblock exactly like Arthur with Excalibur.  <br /><br />Therefore and also because of other reasons the boat scene  symbolizes something different.


created: 2003-04-02 10:08:34
subject: <b>Regarding the boat passage.</b>
body:
&quot;..he who is dead yet lives&quot; = Luc/Isam? Rand's hunnies in a boat with Ol dirty bastard! Make it so RJ!!


created: 2003-04-02 10:24:47
subject: <b>The Lion Sword</b>
body:
Although Elayne is tied closely with Rand, she is not the Lion Sword, Gawyn is.  She is the Queen of Andor and he is her sword


created: 2003-04-02 13:13:13
subject: <b>balanced on a sword</b>
body:
I'm not sure that the world being balanced on a sword is about whether Rand is alive or dead.  Recall the quote before the prologue to CoT: &quot;The left hand wanders, the right hand strays - can't remember which - and the world is balanced on the edge of a blade.&quot;  I'm willing to bet that this prophecy is directly related to Nicola's fortelling.  Which is to say, one hand is Mat, one hand is Perrin, and the balancing act refers to whether or not Rand can successfully become human again- otherwise his victory is supposedly going to be no different than his failure.  Whatever that means.  Maybe while on the boat, with his 3 ladies (in my opinion), he is fighting LTT for control.  I don't know.  <br />As for the hands - now there's room for a theory.  Perrin is certainly shirking his responsibilities to Rand and the world by Traveling all over the place to find Faile, and Mat is on the run from the Seanchan, when he desperately needs to get back to the Band, help Egwene, or else do SOMETHING other than court Tuon.  I mean, Perrin and Mat are supposed to be Rand's MAIN helpers, and they're off running around in circles.  But which hand is which?<br /><br />Anyway, that bears little on the theory at hand.  I tend to agree with Etzel that this battle is about Tar Valon.  The point I want to raise is what being &quot;balanced on a blade&quot; really means.  This is the second time we've seen that phraseology.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-03 17:11:33
subject: <b>Great Battle, Maybe not</b>
body:
Reading the series again i came across the part where Egwene has to take the Accepted test... Remember where she defeated (at least that's how i see it ) Elaida claiming the reason of her victory was she wasn't bound to the oaths ?... maybe there might be a hint of the battle of Tar Valon there because it strikes me now as being a simplified &quot;dream&quot; of what is really going to happen... Elaida not being black ajah but very much under the influence by black ajah and all seems like a good measure to project Egwene's time in the &quot;test&quot; portal against reality... this one probably needs further looking into.


created: 2003-04-04 01:45:08
subject: <b>Crazy Ideas</b>
body:
I was reading the post above where people questioned who the three (plus one) on the boat were. I always asumed, like most people, it was Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. Especially since it seems too much of a coincidence to be anything else. However<br /><br />Lion Sword - I kind of agree with the comment above. That ought to be Gawyn. I don't see how you could discribe Elayne as a sword.<br /><br />Dedicated Spear - Aviendha. Oh wait didn't see give up the spear and is now dedicated to the Wise Ones. This was even true when the prophecy was given. What other dedicated spears are there? I don't know who would fit. <br /><br />She who sees beyond - Well this obviously fits Min. However as long as I am challenging everything might as well suggest other possibilities. Anyone who could predict the future, right. Someone with foretelling (Elaida, Nicola) a dreamer (Amys, Egwene) <br /><br />Only problem is I don't see any connection between any new choices of the 3. I mean Gawyn and Egwene fit together but what dedicated spear would fit with them?<br /><br />He who is dead yet lives - Slayer, Gray Men, Lews Therin, Other Hero of the Horn, A ressurected foresaken? None of these really make sense. Which implies to me I just like questioning the obvious.


created: 2003-04-04 01:50:21
subject: <b>some points</b>
body:
I think you have an interesting idea... but I wanted to clarify a few things....<br />Even if your theory is correct,<br />  1)Nothing says that all these parties (Ashaman, Seachan...ect...) will be involved with this battle. It's talking about after so what difference does it make if their all there.<br />  and 2)Tuon is not the Nine Moons. Binding the nine moons is more equivalent to binding the seachan to him.... its subtle but it might make a difference in futur speculation, and I certainly wouldn't want to formulate a theory based on false information.<br /><br />   Other than that... I think you theory is definitely worth a second look.


created: 2003-04-06 18:34:33
subject: <b>this won't help much</b>
body:
i'm just scribbling this quickly without much thought and based solely on vague memories of past theories... and my shift key doesn't work...<br />'three in a boat and he who is dead yet lives' i believe refers to rand and his three ladies. that is, i think the lion sword etc. is referring, as the original post claims, to rand's three ladies. i think this because once, a long time ago, i saw some related post, i think one or two books ago, relating rand to king arthur, or some such. i think one of the girls had a dream about watching rand's dead body float away. so rand will die but not really. if the battle in which rand dies is this tar valon battle then that could have all sorts of repercussions in the field of prophesy study. i leave that to the experts.<br />


created: 2003-04-06 18:58:59
subject: <b>here's something</b>
body:
well, i got myself interested. here's a min viewing from wotmania's reference section...<br /><br />&quot;Sparks swirling all around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight.You are all tied together in something dangerous.But she's not for you, or you for her. At least not in the way you both want.(Lan) has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword. The strongest images around the gleeman are a man-not him-juggling fire, and the White Tower.The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him. And (Mat) - a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face. (Rand) A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, rock wet with blood. Most of all, I see lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you.&quot; <br />The Eye of the World (215-216) <br /><br /><br /><br />looking up older theories didn't help me at all. they don't really say what i'm almost thinking. or what i would be thinking if i remembered anything. i feel like there's another quote in the books somewhere dealing with this three women thing. it's tuff when the books come out every two years and you have tons of other reading to do. please, someone, i like this theory and i think it can redirect a lot of the old tired trains of thought. help me! <br />


created: 2003-04-06 19:11:56
subject: <b>ooo ooo!!</b>
body:
and egwene's dream about logain stepping over rand on the black slab. that's good too. in his theory entitled &quot;To live you must die...&quot; Asha'man Narev talks about this dream meaning Logain will take rand's place as head of the asha'man while rand pretends to be dead. pretending or not, i think the black slab, or black rock, may not refer to the black rocks of shayol ghul, but rather the black tower, or something else. ok. i have to stop this.


created: 2003-04-07 05:15:24
subject: <b>the last battle</b>
body:
the last battle may not nessecarily the last battl of the world just the last battle against the shadow. but i think your theory is an eccelent guess<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 14:06:17
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I agree that the prophecised &quot;Great Battle&quot; is probably before T'G for most of the reasons you specified. But I disagree with the boat thing on one major point.<br /><br />Hasn't it been generally agreed that all those prophecies around Rand's three women and the cryptic comments about this death ('but not his death') are about his faking his death? I've been living under the assumption that he fakes his death (thanks to that liberated damane who 'helps him die'). The stuff about Min, Elayne &amp; Avie is just them mourning him because he didn't tell them about his little plan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I never connected those prophecies to the TV battle though...interesting, maybe that's where Rand fakes his death. It's gotta be soon, he's running out of books! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wood Shavings!<br /> -YusakuGodai</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 12:51:49
subject: <b>to the previous poster...</b>
body:
the girls would have to know of any plan- since they are bonded to him it would be VERY apparent to them that he wasn't truly dead (especially if they are close enough to be looking over his funeral bier.<br /><br />As to everything else: Great theory and I agree with the overall impression though not every single point.<br /><br />First of all...Funeral bier in many societies/cultures is a boat so obviously the Min/Nicola/Wise One Dream/Viewing/Foretelling are related. <br /><br />Secondly: This theory could be true WITHOUT all the parties becoming involved.  All it would need would be the Seanchan showing up...If you need a reason for Elayne/Avien/MIn to show up I can give two:<br /><br />1.) Egwene is captured but she can still dream...She finds one of the girl's &quot;dreams&quot; and asks them to meet in TAR. They do...find out she is caught..Suian CAN'T tell anyone where she went (though I suppose Bode can) so Egwene is worried no one knows what has happened.  She asks them to come to TV to assist her escape. They ask Rand for his assistance, he of course agrees.  (This could also lead to Ashamen coming along to help and &quot;balance out&quot; the Aes Sedai..and as someone else has mentioned, they are &quot;stronger&quot; in the Power and therefore need less actual numbers to be &quot;Equal&quot; to the Aes Sedai.)<br /><br />2.) Rand meets the Seanchan (Suroth/Sem) and gets caught in the male adam. They decide to use him to help take the White Tower. The girls can &quot;feel&quot; what is happening to him and &quot;feel&quot; his change in direction.  Min grabs an Ashaman (possibly Logain) and gets him to make a gateway, Elayne and Avien make their own. Voila...everyone where they need to be without too much fuss.<br /><br />I don't know that either of these ways will actually happen of course.  All I am saying is that for the people who disagree b/c everyone is so spread out right now; take note that as a writer it is not very hard to get people where you want/need them to be. Especially if you have known where they need to be since the first book ;o) <br /><br /><br />And for those of you who desist because you think the &quot;Great Battle&quot; MUST be something exceedingly grand I pose the following Question:<br />Since Nicola is/was training to be an Aes Sedai- couldn't the battle to win the White Tower be &quot;THE GREAT BATTLE&quot; to her (and Aes Sedai)? I would think that this would be viewed by them as more important than Dumai's Wells etc. just out of sheer arrogance and the expectation that they are more needed than any Aiel Wise ones or common soldiers etc. <br /><br /><br />I know I am forgetting a few points I wanted to make but if I remember I will post again.  I think Etzel did a great job and should be commended.  I don't think every point is correct but this is a THEORY and if he did hit the nail on the head for every point I'd start wondering if perhaps he was a &quot;foreteller&quot; LOL<br /><br />Belgaria<br />


created: 2003-04-13 05:28:52
subject: <b>Belgaria, re girls knowing...</b>
body:
Question there though is if through Rand's plan somehow the bonds are broken.  Then the girls would think he is dead.  A minor possibility..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-16 16:07:56
subject: <b>He who is dead yet lives</b>
body:
this could be Rand.  I mean he is the dragon reborn or Lews Therin reincarnated<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I Am The Dragon Reborn All Who Say Diffrent Will Feel My Wrath.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Rand al'Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> AKA The_Ender71 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-20 20:32:39
subject: <b>the future</b>
body:
&quot;the future teeters on the edge of a blade&quot; appears to refer to the future at the time the girls are on the boat.  However, it could mean the future of the present day.  If the first case is true, then the &quot;Great Battle&quot; is definetly not TG, unless there is a significant event after TG.  This is possible, as the DO wants Rand at TG, and Cadsuanne is concerned Rand losing his humanity is as bad as him dying.  Perhaps Rand will be tempted to turn to the shadow or do something else that lets the DO win after TG.<br /><br />The 3 girls are on the boat, but nowhere does it say Rand is on the boat.  If this is a Viking funeral, the girls would need to be on the same flamming boat as Rand's body to be close to the funeral bier.  Incidently, a bier is a stand for a cofin, which almost certainly proves Rand won't be cremated, and most likely something as heavy as a coffin, bier and body won't be on a boat (it doesn't say ship).  Most likely, Rand is in a moseleum or at a wake, and the boat is a seperate scene.<br /><br />&quot;The White Tower ... will be whole and stronger than ever&quot; means the white tower MUST be united before the Seanchan attack TV OR the Seachchan lose the battle.  I think the second case is more likely.  <br /><br />&quot;the guardians balance out the servants&quot; can still happen at the same time &quot;The White Tower ... will be whole and stronger than ever&quot; if the Asha'man continue to pick up strength.  This is certainly possible if the Mayar or someone else has male channelers that join Rand.  However it is also still possible that the Asha'man will simply continue recruiting and training until they are about the same as the White Tower.  &quot;Whole&quot; could also refer not only to the union of the two factions of the white tower, but also to the union of the male and female channelers - which certainly makes the tower stronger than ever.<br /><br />The Black Tower being &quot;rent in blood and fire&quot; does not nessasily mean the Asha'man will be weaker.  &quot;Rent&quot; implies divided, not nessasily destroyed.  Even if the Black Tower itself is destroyed, this does not nessasarily mean the destruction or even weakening of the Asha'man.<br /><br />Some have pointed out the Black Tower has already had &quot;sisters ... walk its grounds&quot;.  I believe Elidia's prophecy implies sisters will walk its grounds AFTER it is &quot;Rent in blood and fire&quot;.  However, this does not nessasily imply the sisters are enemies of the Asha'man - they could even be allies.<br /><br />Don't forget, Rand will &quot;will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger&quot;.  This could be Elidia, more likely is Egwene, but also could be ANY Aes Sedia to take over in the future.  The anger is not nessasarily related to the Asha'man, and could even be Egwene finding out Rand faked his death after everything is over.


created: 2003-04-22 19:24:01
subject: <b>Just one important part you misinterperted</b>
body:
You might have missed it, he who is dead yet lives. I think this is in refrense to Rand, and since everyone allready knows he is going to die, it would mean he is still alive. i think it supports what you are trying to say better than how you explained it. and there is more evidence that can help but i hate typing.


created: 2003-05-06 20:06:41
subject: <b>I'm not sure...</b>
body:
Sheesh, by the time you get to the end of all the comments, it's hard to remember what the original theory was. hehe. I think you might be right about this, but I am trying not to set any one thing in my mind at the moment.<br /><br />Interestingly, although I agree it makes the most sense (with connections, etc.) that the vision must mean Elayne, Aviendha and Min, I also think that the &quot;lion sword&quot; SHOULD mean Gawyn. So, maybe RJ was just on crack at that moment. heh. <br />Since he is Elayne's sword though, it should mean him..though, apparently, it does not. Weird.<br /><br />Also, Manowar, Interesting idea about Egwene and her capture. Since she has been held captive by the Seanchan as well, it might prove interesting to have her in the tower when the fighting ensues. Food for thought anyway.<br />


created: 2003-05-15 12:47:42
subject: <b>Nicola`s Foretelling</b>
body:
I do not agree that the Great Battle refers to TV.  That there will be a battle with the Seanchan is evident {with Egwene`s dream in TDR pg 290 pb}.However, the Wheel {or Pattern} has placed Egwene in the WT for a purpose.  As a result of the Seanchan attack, the Tower Hall will listen to her and proclaim her Amyrlin.  Remember the Ajah heads have been meeting secretly, I think to find a way to get rid of Elaida.  With the Tower stronger than ever, the Seanchan will be defeated.  I do believe that Mat`s party will be there, also.  Remember that Egwene`s dream of being rescued by a Seanchan woman with a sword from the mountain in CoT: she has to be Egeanin, a former Sea Captain, who is well aware of the truth of Sul`dams, with the ability to learn to channel, and is in sympathy with the AS.<br /><br />Gaeren:  You`re right- there will be the Shadowspawn to clean out, as well as Dreadlords, BA, etc., after Rand has spilled his blood in Shayol Ghul {which I think is his next project}. This would be the &quot;Great battle done&quot; but the world not done with battle.  It fits in nicely with the prophecy of &quot;twice rises the sun&quot; when Rand dies at SG and then is reborn {as three people}. He will have started in one time zone and be reborn in another in the West.<br /><br />geoff aldrich:  you`re right- the foretellings have been taken out of context, such as Elaida believing Trakand being the ruling house of Andor, instead of Modreilline`s {spelling} house.<br /><br />Comet Sedai:  Mat has to do the things he is doing. Haven`t you heard the dice rolling in his head and then stopping when he has done the right thing?  <br />Also, Perrin has to do what he is doing.  The Wheel{or Pattern} has put Faile with the Shaido along with Morgaise, in order to get Perrin, Talinvor and the 15,000 man-strong Seanchan army to go after the Shaido and get rid of Sevanna and her like-minded friends separated from the rest of the Shaido, who are not in agreement with her, such as Thereva. This will help bind the Shaido to Rand.<br /><br />I wish RJ would finish the series in 2 more books.  I`m nearly 72years old and would like to see the closure of all these threads!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-20 17:54:02
subject: <b>Little Ones</b>
body:
I really do like this theory and all, i just wanted to point out that we still have a pregnacy to deal with, at some point our firey red head, Aviendha, has to get knocked up with those odd kids that Min saw her having, wouldn't Rand R&amp;R it after a big battle be a great time for some sweet loving? Just an event that needs to still happen and requires both Rand and Aviendha to be in the same place. After a battle, getting the blood going might lead to a number of things


created: 2003-05-22 02:16:28
subject: <b>Hey Etzel</b>
body:
I agree with your theory. I've long thought about a great battle at Tar Valon before Nicola's foretelling. I wrote up a theory about how and why it'll be great. Not sure if it'll get posted but if your interested in reading it just email me and i'll send it. It's too much to write here. Just some thoughts on yours:<br /><br />1. &quot;and he who is dead yet lives&quot;. I think she's talking about Lews Therin. Min's viewing about them merging.... quite the time for him to take over but it would really put things &quot;on the edge&quot;.<br />2. &quot;and the guardians balance out the servants&quot;. Rather then actual numbers. This probably refers to power. As the world doesn't trust Aes Sedai too much. You remember Elaida's tower she's building herself? What do you suppose RJ has planned for that? They need to be united before the last battle but having 2 different towers will keep them apart (hence using seperate title &quot;guardians and servants&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />3. Just a thought on the Egwene vs. Elaida thing. I doubt this will come to blood shed(close, real close), but be done through skill at the game of houses and sheer force of will(remember Suan telling her about those 2 great Amyrlins? Well Egwene has to be the GREATEST).<br /><br />There's alot more I have but like I said, too much for here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-26 16:47:34
subject: <b>Not so sure.......</b>
body:
I've been rereading COT, and ran across Nicola's Foretelling last night.  I THOUGHT I had it all worked out.  After reading through this thread, I not so sure.<br /><br />The &quot;Three on the boat&quot;, I assumed would be Elaye, Aviendha and Min.  I am reasonably sure that &quot;the lion sword&quot; is NOT Gawayne, as he is most apt to take Rand's head at first sight. &quot;She who sees beyond&quot; is most likely Min, seeing as how she is currently with Rand.  The dedicated spear is tough.  Aviendha is currently with Elaye, and they have their own trouble to deal with in Caemelyn.  Mat also carries a spear and is currently headed north.  (TV is north of where he's at now)  I'm not sold on either at this point.<br /><br />&quot;He who is dead, yet lives&quot; is obviously Rand.  Possibly immediately following TG.  For those that believe Rand dies at TG, the prophecy states &quot;his blood on the rocks of Shayol Gul&quot;.  I do not recall any prophecy specifically stating he will die, only that his blood is spilled.<br /><br />As for the rest of the Foretelling, it would be unreasonable to assume that simply because Rand defeats the DO that all battles will cease.  There are simply too many separate ajendas floating around.  <br /><br />A quick opinion about Foretelling.  Nicola's Foretelling comes out of nowhere, is poetic or perhaps esoteric in nature and leaves her somewhat confused.  Elaida's Foretellings are mostly crystal clear and leave her, breathless (for lack of a better description).  Elaida's Foretellings are also almost always beneficial to her or the White Tower.  I personally believe that Elaida's &quot;Foretellings&quot; are more or less delusions of granduer and NOT true Foretellings.  I think that also fits her personality.<br /><br />As to whether or not this is TG, why not both?  Who says TG is fought exclusively at Shayol Gul?  Why could the battle not start at TV and end up at SG?<br /><br />Just my thoughts......now pick me apart.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-06 02:13:22
subject: <b>Not the first time</b>
body:
I don't think so.I think &quot;teetering on the egde of a knife&quot; and that stuff about the man who is dead living and the three in the boat thing just kill your theory. I guess I'm saying I disagree with most of it. I think more likely what it means is that Rand as Rand will survive the lst battle, or maybe Rand but not as Rand, at the end of the last battle the Seanchan aren't gonna just be like,&quot; lets be friends,&quot; and after hes united the world all the scheming gonna start up again, just like at the fall of Aurtur Hawkings empire. I think you're also forgetting one important point: Lanfear's whole wasn't the first, and therefore most likely this isn't the first &quot;last battle&quot;. The three in the boat I'm not sure. Back to the Rand dead thing real fast. Egwene has that dream about Rand being dead, but when she touches it it shatters like glass. Someting of Rand obviously dies, but what? Anyways, still a good theory, I juat don't think so.


created: 2005-02-07 02:10:28
subject: <b>Mats possibilities</b>
body:
the par where it says he who is dead yet lives that could be mat but only by the Finn's prophecy of Mat who died and lived again


created: 2005-02-08 22:01:06
subject: <b>the return</b>
body:
In the theory, you said that the return refers to the seanchan. I thought it was a bit obvious that considering the fortelling refers to TG (i dont buy your theory) it would be the &quot;Day of Return&quot; that the forsaken are always talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rest in Peace, RJ</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-16 13:45:22
subject: <b>Good, and in addition.</b>
body:
I'll make this short, I agree with you, except on the scene of the boat.  I think that scene on the boat the &quot;return&quot; is Rand's aka LTT aka The Dragon Reborn, is the return of the Dragon to the ranks of Aes Sedai. <br /><br />LR<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">AballaSonDis<br /><br />ASD-- &quot;The King Approaches <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The Idiot Warrior&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Jackie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-16 11:15:36
subject: <b>Double meanings?</b>
body:
Hey,<br /><br />Gaurdians balance out the servants? I reckon could be more to do with the bonding thats flying about.<br /><br />ie. the number of aes sedai bonded by ash'aman, and vice versa.<br /><br />Also note a dual meaning in the purpose of the bonds. <br /><br />Ash'aman bonded them as sevrants.<br /><br />Aes sedai use of the bond, warder/gaidin=gaurdian?


created: 2003-04-04 09:26:12
subject: <b>Some more flattery..</b>
body:
Never thought of that but it strikes me as obvious it must be so. Kind of a &quot;fate strikes back&quot;- idea there as well, to have Lanfear/Cyndane try life as hard as she would've originally had it 'fore her trip to the Aelfinn... A fabulous theory; one of the best I've read.


created: 2003-04-04 09:33:24
subject: <b>very possible</b>
body:
your pionts are good and very possible, and unlike some theories make sense.  <br /><br />Is it possible though that she lost her ablity in the one power and her good looks as the price to have her wish of escaping grated.


created: 2003-04-04 09:42:56
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
Even when the future will tell you wrong, it still will be brilliant!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Eleanor Jagad  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The information contained in this message is confidential; disclosure, duplication and/or distribution of this message, without the Amyrlin's consent, is prohibited. This message is sealed to the Flame.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 10:57:50
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
I love the theory, and would love even more for it to be true.  My only concern is this:  <br /><br />Once you use a particular gateway to the Finns, you can't use it again..you just walk through like its a normal, empty doorway.  There is some talk about the possibility of other doorways existing, but the fact is we only really know of the two (one for each, Snakes and Foxes).  <br /><br />While this doesn't disprove the theory, it certainly adds another condition for it to be true; we have to go on the supposition that either another set of doors exists or she used the ToG for which we also have no *proof* of its use by anyone.<br /><br />Thinking about it again, theres also the possibility that when you cheat and get away, perhaps that makes it so you can still use the door again; if they're pissed that you cheated they might want to leave the door open in case just such an opportunity for revenge arises.  This has the same problem as the others though, in that we have no indication this could even be a possiblity.<br /><br />I'm just playing Dark One's advocate and pointing out some of the &quot;if&quot;s.  I do love the theory though (reminds me of a super cool version of the Ugly Duckling)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 10:59:36
subject: <b>very nicely done</b>
body:
it seems like a good solution to why lanfear is weaker than she was, it might also be a punishment from the dark lord but its just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 11:18:04
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Especially your quote about Lanfear being shocked that a woman is stronger than her and that this &quot;was impossible&quot; convinced me.<br />I also think your second explaination why Lanfear lost her wish is the most likely.<br /><br />One point I want to add is that Lanfear is (as you said) one of the bests in TAR. <br />If I remember correctly you can enter Finnland easy through the Tower of Ghenjei in TAR, at least Slayer does it once when he was followed by Perrin.<br />It seems likely that also Lanfear knows about this way. Therefore I suppose that she came the first time through the Tower to Finnland since we know that you can't enter Finnland twice through the doorway (I think).<br /><br />In any case, a good theory!


created: 2003-04-04 11:20:14
subject: <b>Excellent!</b>
body:
This is really the only explanation I can think of.<br /><br />I once thought that maybe it was genetic engineering and angreal implants, but that doesn't really explain how she was so good in dreamworld.<br /><br />The main problem, of course, and it was already mentioned, is that Lanfear would have had to have gone to Finnland in a different doorway.<br /><br />The only other one that we know of is the Tower of Ghenjei.  However, during the AoL, there may have been hundreds of ter'angreals to Finnland.<br /><br />I really like this theory, and I love it when someone can come up with something like this.<br /><br />If you are right, there should be one more consequence:  Lanfear is no longer good in dreamworld.<br /><br />We will have to wait and see if this turns out to be true.<br /><br />I really like this cause it does explain the Alivia paradox really  well.  Lanfear said that it was impossible.<br /><br />Lanfear most likely asked (assuming this theory is correct), &quot;I want to be the most powerful channeler of saidar ever.&quot;<br /><br />Of course, Alivia wasn't around yet.  <br /><br />This has very interesting corollaries, because it makes me wonder what in heck is up with Alivia.  Is she like of the patterns heros or something?<br /><br />Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 11:22:30
subject: <b>Punishment from the Dark One?</b>
body:
Sorry, I don't think I can agree with that last idea.  If the Dark One were able to alter the strengths one is able to channel, we would find the reincarnated Forsaken to be incredibly strong.  I suppose there might be a special case, that he can only reduce, and only on reincarnations that he controls.  Even so, that seems unlikely to me.


created: 2003-04-04 11:25:11
subject: <b>Rethinking</b>
body:
I had forgotten about Slayer entering the ToG in TAR.  That is definately a possibility and since we've seen it done...<br /><br />As far as her TAR ability: maybe she had that talent to begin with, found out how to get into the ToG as a result and then wished for the looks, OP strength, and something else (like not having to pay for the wishes...tricky tricky)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 12:13:53
subject: <b>One problem...</b>
body:
I really liked this theory...but there's one problem. The redstone doorway Moiraine and Lanfear went through was the one found in Rhuidean - the one that granted Mat his three wishes. And one rule about those doorways is that you can only go through once. If Lanfear had already gone through the doorway to get her three wishes, Moiraine would not have been able to take her through it again. <br /><br />Unless Lanfear went to the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn through the Tower of Ghenji or some other doorway.


created: 2003-04-04 14:38:12
subject: <b>Access through the doorway</b>
body:
I like the theory. One way around the 1 time through issue could be that Moiraine and Lanfear were in contact when they went through the doorway. It is obvious that M had not been to Finnland before. They may have been taken as a single entity since they were in contact not only physical, but via channeling as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 14:48:42
subject: <b>*Applauds*</b>
body:
I love it. Great theory, quite originial too! I'm impressed.<br /><br />And to  Shadow_killer_wolfbrother I think that the one time through thing might have something to do with the doorway melting, not just walking into the doorway and hitting a brick wall or something. You go through and your way back is gone, that's my thought at least.<br /><br />But I really enjoyed this theory. Kudos.


created: 2003-04-04 15:39:46
subject: <b>What about her history?</b>
body:
It certainly explains a lot if Lanfear went to see the finns.  But in the Age of Legends, wasn't she famous?  Then it would seem that people then would have noticed a change.  If she went through the doorway before she was famous, then how did she get access to a doorway and know what to do?  I doubt gateways and instructions manuals were just around for anyone to use/read.


created: 2003-04-04 16:08:51
subject: <b>Famous Lanfear</b>
body:
Lanfear was a researcher probably even before she became famous in AoL.  She could have discovered how to get to Finnland via ToG and what the Finns did.  She then could have gotten her wishes granted and become famous, before anyone would have noticed the changes in her.<br /><br />But if she knew so much about the Finn, did she just stop at getting wishes granted?  I doubt it.  I think it is more likely that she visited the snakes first.  She then would have asked the following questions:<br />1) How can I become more powerful than anybody?  <br />Answer - go to the foxes via Ghenjei.<br />2) How can I play with the foxes and win?<br />Answer - cheat<br />3) How can I get even more power?<br />Answer - drill the bore.<br /><br />Note that answer three definitely touches the shadow and so there were bound to be grave consequences.  Lanfear probably had an inkling that drilling the bore might be dangerous and so let Beidomon control the flows.  This all would have accounted for her huge power-ups and her knowledge of how to drill the bore.<br /><br />Another question that might be related that comes to mind is why the DO never recruited any ta'averen, or if he did, what would that be like.  Could Lanfear be ta'averen?  Does this have to do with the gateway melting?  I doubt it, because probably no one is stronger ta'averen than Rand and it didn't melt holding both him and Mat (the one in Tear).<br /><br />Cheers


created: 2003-04-04 17:55:09
subject: <b>Wow wow wow . . .</b>
body:
I'm really impressed!<br />No matter if it turns out to be true, false or partially true, I really love this theory!<br />Good work man, wish I had ideas like this once in a while <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />About the going in twice:<br />Moiraine and Lanfear both holding an angreal which is being channeled through to its limits might lead to the doorway acting in a weird way, as it is a OP-wrought object.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents...<br /><br />Me Enjoy Theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 19:57:39
subject: <b>I like the third option maybe...</b>
body:
Since she said &quot;held&quot; by the 'Finn, it's almost certain that she survived the encounter.  Otherwise she would have said &quot;killed&quot; or something like that, rather than say &quot;held&quot;.<br /><br />So the third possibility holds some merit, IMHO.  She could have used any of the many gateways to Foxland that existed back in the old days to enter, so that the prohibition on entering twice through one wouldn't come into play.<br /><br />Interesting idea, to be sure.


created: 2003-04-04 22:27:49
subject: <b>Aran'gar</b>
body:
Best theory that I've read in a long time!<br /><br />I think the example of Aran'gar might support it, too.  She has the ability to channel saidin, not saidar, so the ability must be dependent on the soul/being of the individual, not the physical manifestation.  Also, Halima is skilled with wielding saidin, but can't write well.  There is no evidence one or the other about her strength is saidin, but why should that change if skill and the ability itself don't?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 03:15:58
subject: <b>Fourth Possibility</b>
body:
There is a Fourth Possibility.  <br />First, there are three things that Lanfear either wished for the first time she visited or possessed that she was proud of.  <br />One-strength in One Power.  She had it and was proud of it.  <br />Two-beauty.  She knew she had it and used it constantly.  <br />Three-height.  She was proud of how tall she was and was proud that Lews Therin and Rand were not really taller.  I haven't looked up where, but I remember that Semirhage being as tall irked her as did Lanfear being as tall irked Semirhage.  Also Cyndane is constantly described as straining for as much height as possible, a clear tell of a tall person finding out that she no longer considered tall.<br /><br />Now:  What did Lanfear wish for when she entered the portal?  I don't know and it doesn't matter whether Lanfear had been there before.  The wishes do involve being the most [blank] where she is.  However, she and Moraine are the only WOMEN there; the snake people don't count in her wishes.<br />First, she wished to be the most beautiful woman.  However, as she and Moraine were the only women there, Moraine is the model and Lanfear is more beautiful but in the same model.  Pale, dark, plump.  Like Moraine.<br />Second, she wised to be the tallest woman.  Moraine is short, Cyndane is slightly taller.<br />Three, there are two possbilities here.  One, She wished to be stronger in the One Power and they increased her strength.  Two, she wished to be the strongest women and they increased her strength to match Moraine plus the angreal that Moraine grabbed from Lanfear as they entered the portal.  I wager that an angreal make Moraine about as strong as Lanfear.<br /><br />Woody


created: 2003-04-05 04:34:26
subject: <b>Don't let the negatives get you down</b>
body:
I really enjoyed it.  I hope that you come up with more brilliant pieces like this in the near future so that I have more reason to come to the theory post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ryce<br />Pimpin Yoduff's Steel for a Throne on OF Fan Fic<br />Currently 15% through the brainstorming and plotting of my first novel. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 10:57:47
subject: <b>Regarding the bit about Beidomon</b>
body:
He would have controlled the flows because he's a man.  When a man and woman link, a man has to control the flows.  In a circle of two or seventy-two, a man has to control the links.<br /><br />Anyway the theory is great.  Regarding why Cyndane is physically the opposite of Lanfear (it seems like too much of a coincidence to be her original body), maybe she wished to look like she did as Lanfear because she had a negative body image like so many real life girls and young women do, and absolutely no WoT women so far.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 11:55:50
subject: <b>Nuh huh</b>
body:
You're reading into it too much.<br /><br />'no woman could be stronger' - this is mearly Lanf/Cynd in denial - she is used to being the strongest around. This is the most straight forward and most likely interpretation<br /><br />You're point about Lanfear being unreasonably strong is true though. However Rand and Ishamael are also exceptionally gifted in OP, aspects of use of OP, T'A'R (tho Rand is ignorant), military skill, ability at Daes Daemar, physical skill and strength. These men are even more gifted than Lanfear.<br /><br />Also from a practical point of view it was essential that RJ made Lanfear such a strong individual. She had to look voer Rand as he developed, but had to be sufficiently strong to be able to handle him if need be. Admittedly Rand is stronger, but he is ignorant and Lanfear's knowledge coupled wiht her strenght is surely more valuable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 12:47:46
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
after I thought more about it, I'm not still so convinced. <br /><br />Can it really be that the Eelfinn (I think they are the foxes not the Aelfinn) grant <i> every </i> wish? I can hardly believe it. Can you also wish that the world should be destroyed or that the DO is dead, or something? That can't be. The Eelfinn would be more powerful than the Creator!<br />Also if you look at the things Mat got, all things what the Finn can have: a weapon and a ter'angreal from the AoL and memories of people who entered Finnland once.<br /><br />But how can they give you more strength in the One power or another looking?<br /><br />Furthermore, if in the AoL the contact with the Finn was something normal as the mentioning of a treat indicates, it can't be that everyone could wish everything.<br /><br />On the other hand, it's a fact that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear and there must be an explaination. <br /><br />Well, maybe someone can destroy my doubts...


created: 2003-04-05 18:14:16
subject: <b>Impossible......</b>
body:
She could not have gone through to the wish granters door before otherwise she wouldn't have gone through when Moiraine pushed her in the second time....i.e. Mat tried to go back into the other doorway and he just passed through to the other side of portal.  The other door just answers questions, no wishes.


created: 2003-04-05 20:06:49
subject: <b>Mat's Door Trip</b>
body:
I think there are too many differences between what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear to compare it to Mat's experience.  First of all, it was a different doorway.  Secondly, there were two people falling through, and there is no reason to believe that Mo had been through before.  Second, they were both chanelling large amounts of One Power with angreals.  Rand came back into this world chanelling his sword, but that was also the other doorway, he was not going into the doorway, and he wasn't using large amounts of power.<br /><br />A parting shot: what about Sharine?  Is she stronger than Alivia?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-06 06:38:27
subject: <b>Additional Information</b>
body:
I thought that perhaps I should reply to the posts here. I am new here so please excuse me if posting about your own theory post is considered to be bad form. Several interesting points were raised by the very fine people on this board and I thought I should reply.<br /><br />First and most importantly I have made an error. The Eelfinn are the Fox People and they grant wishes. Not the Aelfinn as I said. I do not know if it is possible for an administrator to fix this error, I am most sorry. Sloppy research is unforgivable.<br /><br />Concerning using the gateway twice: I have no idea how Lanfear entered finnland in the AoL. However, I highly suspect that entrance through the gateways is contingent upon adherance to the treaty. I suspect that the Finn allowed the gateways to be made and used only so long as you didn't bring fire or iron or music. Breaking the rules at least makes you subject to capture. It is also possible that breaking the treaty could cause the gateway to be destroyed. The other consideration is that is likely that the gateways were gaurded and only in rare circumstances in the AoL. I think that all this makes it likely that Lanfear did not use the redstone doorway in the AoL. She likely used another route.<br /><br />Those wondering about relitive female OP strengths should also consider this: Lanfear was RIGHT about Alivia. She wasn't stronger. She was holding the angreal that she got from Nynaeve on page 635.<br /><br />The sugestion that I am reading too much in to Lanfear's words has been made. However with RJ whenever a character says something odd and he puts it in italics it usualy means something. Consider when Mat said that the daughter of the 9 moons was his wife. Egeanin said &quot;You cannot say that! You <b>must</b> not say that!&quot; (WH, pg 588 ) It turned out to be a Seanchan marrage ritual.<br /><br />I wish to disclaim that my guess that Lanfear wished for ability in TAR is just that: a guess. It is just as likely that she wished to leave finnland as Mat did.<br /><br />Limits on wishes: I suspect that there are limits on the wishes that the Eelfin can grant. What those limits are I don't know. This is one reason why I favor option 2 because I think it unlikely that they could make her the most powerful channeler of all turnings of the wheel. <br /><br />I suspect that contact with the finn in the AoL was carefuly regulated. Think about it. You could wish somebody dead or wish away a major city or any number of very bad things. Note that the Eelfinn doorway was found in Rhuidin. This is because it is one of the dangerous Ter'angreal given to the AoL Aiel for safe keeping. Immagine what could have happened if the shadow had captured it during the war of power.<br /><br />Concerning Lanfear in the AoL and the timeframe and logistics of her wishes. Cyndane at her current power level is no slouch. She is still stronger than many (if not all) of the female forsaken. So Lanfear was likely that powerful in the AoL. Adding in that she was a researcher. She could easily have learned an alternate route to finnland (likely the Tower of Genji) and made her way there. She probably made this trip when she was just a researcher and not a &quot;famous researcher&quot;. She likely became famous as a result of what she got and learned there. Also there may not have been any prohibition against tricking the finn in the AoL. If Lanfear bettered herself and didn't hurt anyone in the processs then good for her. <br /><br />Some have expressed interst in the third option. I also think it very possible and holds great posibilities. I don't think that just because Cyndane said that the finn &quot;held&quot; her that option 3 is absolutely true. It is posible that the finn held her and then killed her or that she killed herself (knowing that the DO would reincarnate her) to escape the finn. However, option 3 is a real posibility. I have another theory that I may share at some later date that involves Mordin or some other agent of the dark rescuing Lanfear from finnland. This would likely be when and how she got mind trapped. <br /><br />Respectfully Submitted,<br />brainwave


created: 2003-04-06 07:27:29
subject: <b>Portal Stones &amp; questions touching the dark one</b>
body:
Lanfear could have gone to Finnland through portal stones. She knows how they work, that's how she brought Rand into the parallel world in The Great Hunt.<br /><br />As for asking the DO to be dead.. that's not an option, as you're not allowed to ask any question touching the DO.<br /><br />Lilitoe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wouldn't it have been funnier if JFK had gone to Hamburg?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-06 08:46:46
subject: <b>You can't...</b>
body:
ask the Aelfinn about Shadow's matters, that's right. <br />We don't know if there is a similiar limit if you wish something from the Eelfinn, it could be.<br /><br />In any case, I think there must be more limits for the Eelfinn. <br />I don't believe they have the power to change the whole pattern if it's wished (e.g. by destroying a city).<br /><br />Also I don't think they can change a person and give greater strength or something. <br />If you wish to become stronger they would give you some tool to become stronger (a ter'angreal or something). We see this with Mat. <br />I suppose the Eelfinn couldn't make him untouchable for the One Power, they just can give him something that can do this (the medaillion).<br /><br />Of course with Mat's memories it's a bit different, they can put this memory into Mat's head. <br />But since the memories are all from people who came to Finnland once, it's seems obvious that they couldn't give Mat memories of someone who wasn't in Finnland. <br /><br />For this, I believe the Eelfinn can give you only &quot;things&quot; (and this means also memories) they have access to, not abilities or new physical qualities.


created: 2003-04-06 16:54:04
subject: <b>*doubtful*</b>
body:
A possibility I've never considered, and I'm not convinced. That Mierin Eronaile was a well-respected researcher can't be disputed, since this information was in &quot;The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time&quot;. However, no connection was made between her and the 'finns, not even a tiny little iota. <br /><br />I say she was always that strong, always that beautiful, and her loss of strength was the result of a bargain she struck with the 'finns to free her soul for the Dark One to reinstate in another body under another name.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 06:57:22
subject: <b>Alivia is stronger than Lanfear</b>
body:
&quot;Those wondering about relitive female OP strengths should also consider this: Lanfear was RIGHT about Alivia. She wasn't stronger. She was holding the angreal that she got from Nynaeve on page 635.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Then the woman [Alivia] struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.&quot; - 649<br /><br />Lanfear knew Alivia had the angreal, and knew that Alivia would still be stronger without it.<br />


created: 2003-04-07 10:03:55
subject: <b>Great original theory!!</b>
body:
I am impressed by  your very original speculation that Cyndane's Power strength was Mierin's original strength. However, Cyndane's body may not be the original body of Mierin Eronaile. I would think that Lanfear's body was Mierin's own, otherwise people in the Age of Legends would have commented on the physical changes. Besides, you don't really need the Eelfinn when you have plastic surgery and genetic treatments (the first of which we in the First Age already have and use widely, and the second is now being researched). Power-wrought plastic surgery would be so much better than our own flawed form of plastic surgery, yes?<br /><br />I have thought that Lanfear died in Finnland and was resurrected by the Dark One into another body with Mierin's original Power strength. Very likely, into the body of that Aes Sedai that Semirhage was torturing, Cabriana Mecandes. The description of Cabriana fits the physical description of Cyndane (short height, pale hair, generous bosom).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 19:38:57
subject: <b>Ummm, me thinks not</b>
body:
A great theory - and it sounds good, but I have some issues.<br /><br />A common theme about people who lose the ability to channel is that when male channelers regain the ability, they come back at full strength (eg Logain), and when women regain the ability they don't come back as strong as before (eg S Sanche).<br /><br />It is possible that when you die and are resurrected, you go through the process of being detached from the source, that is unable to channel - for the obvious reason that you're dead - and then when you are resurrected you regain the ability to channel again.  Using the same theory, Halima, although in a female body, still has access to the male half of the source, and has his/her original strength in channeling.  This meets the criteria listed above along side Logain.  Cyndane, who I think we correctly assume is Lanfear, doesn't have the same channeling strength, matches what we have seen before with Suiane and Leanne.<br /><br />So rather then Cyndane losing some of her strength in channeling because of a fancy set of wishes that we can hypothesise about, it could instead have something simple to do with the fact that she infact died and thus was removed from the source for a while.<br /><br />I do have a lot more things I could add to this, but it would constitute its own theory and I don't want to ruin this one too much as it was well written and researched.


created: 2003-04-07 20:26:19
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I like the theory a lot.<br /><br />deathwatchbob, you've read that completely wrong. Lanfear is shocked that Alivia is stronger than she herself used to be. So she comes to the conclusion that Alivia must have an angreal. There is no suggestion at all that Lanfear believes Alivia would be stronger without the angreal. How could she possibly even speculate on that without knowledge of the angreal's strength?<br /><br />It is not that women come back at part strength when healed and men to full, it's that you need the opposite sex to heal you to come back to full strength. Nynaeve healed Logain, full strength. Nynaeve healed Suian and Leane, partial strength. Damer healed the Aes Sedai Rand stilled, full strength. We've never seen a man try to heal another man, but without doubt they;d onyl return to parial strength.<br /><br />You CAN ask the Finn about the Shadow...but be prepared for the consequences. And not just what the Finn will do to you. The Finn aren't just refusing to talk about such things, they're afriad of what might happen if they do. Robert Jordan himself said at a signing somethign along the lines of: &quot;You think it's bad saying Shai'tan in this world, you should see what would happen if you said it in the Finn's...&quot;<br /><br />Like I said, good theory. I've argued the Cyndane saying it was impossible to be stronger point before, but too many people refused to see it as anything but Cyndane's arrogance, I'm glad to see others think like I do.


created: 2003-04-08 04:59:34
subject: <b>After thinking a while and reading the scene with Mat...</b>
body:
I believe there are (at least) two limits when you wish from the Eelfinn.<br /><br />The first is, you can only wish things concerning directly yourself. <br />You can't wish :&quot;I want that Caemyln is destroyed&quot; or &quot;my brother shall die&quot;, or something like this becuase that aren't wishes <i> for </i> you. Mat does this right when he wishes (maybe luck...). <br />On the other hand if you not wish correctly probably the Eelfinn just don't agree and say &quot;done&quot;.<br /><br />The second limit is that the Eelfinn grant only certain &quot;things&quot; (in a wider sense) they have access to (maybe through TAR). <br />Or like Mat's wish to leave Finnland, things they can grant without problems. <br />But they certainly can't change human qualities, they can't be such powerful as the Creator. <br />Again, if they can't do it, they don't agree and say &quot;done&quot;.<br />It's after all a treat.<br /><br />A difficult question is if a woman could wish a child and be pregnant then. <br />The wish would concern you in a way (1st limit).<br />If the Finn have access to a child they could maybe put it into the woman like they put the memories into Mat. <br /><br />But I know, it's getting a bit bizarr, RJ probably didn't think about that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In any case, you theory is original (and that is the main point for a good theory). <br />But at a second look I'm certain it must be wrong. The Finn aren't so powerful to grant every wish!


created: 2003-04-08 07:13:21
subject: <b>Alivia is Stronger than Lanfear!</b>
body:
you've read that completely wrong. Lanfear is shocked that Alivia is stronger than she herself used to be. So she comes to the conclusion that Alivia must have an angreal. There is no suggestion at all that Lanfear believes Alivia would be stronger without the angreal. How could she possibly even speculate on that without knowledge of the angreal's strength?<br /><br />Read the book: &quot;She must have an angreal, too.&quot; - 649 Look at the last word in that sentance...TOO! Too means also, so she is stronger than Lanfear and she also has an angreal. Does that clear things up for you? If it doesn't look at Aes Sedai meetings with each other. They defer to each other based on strength in the power, which they can sense WITHOUT THE OTHER WOMAN EVEN EMBRACING SAIDAR. <br /><br />-sorry about the uppercase, people were not noticing what was written in lowercase.<br /><br />George Carlin = Thom Merrelin<br />


created: 2003-04-08 08:34:36
subject: <b>First of all</b>
body:
First of all, Cyndane was not close enough to Alivia to be able to tell her strength in the Power:<br /><br />&quot;Cyndane slowed at the sight of the woman standing among the trees a hundred paces ahead of her&quot;<br /><br />&quot;No matter how fierce the other woman's eyes, a knife would do for her...And just in case she proved to be what they called a wilder, Cyndane prepared a small present for her&quot;<br /><br />So it's pretty obvious that Cyndane didn't even know Alivia could channel until saidar appeared around her. So the only way she is able to judge the woman's strength is when she was struck back at by Alivia and felt how strong that was. Now if someone has an angreal and is using it, unless you have had chance to feel their natural strength beforehand, you can't tell that this isnlt their natural strength. Unless of course you believe it's impossible, as Cyndane does, and come to the conclusion that it must be a very strong channeler with an angreal too to push her over Lanfear's old strength.<br /><br />Badically, there's no way Cyndane would be able to judge that Alivia was stronger than she was when she was Lanfear even without an angreal. Hell, the weakest angreals we've seen add at least 50% to your power, if Alivia was stronger than Lanfear already and then used an angreal (Nynaeve's angreal [that Alivia is using] is strong, at least a double in strength), Alivia should have blown Cyndane away no problem.<br /><br />As for the &quot;too&quot;, perhaps Cyndane has an angreal hidden on her somewhere (though I don't believe that). Perhaps when she was Lanfear, the only times she faced any woman stronger than her was when they were already very strong (think Graendal strength) and also had a decent strength angreal. Both would explain the &quot;too&quot;.<br /><br />Whatever the case, it wouldn't have been possible for Cyndane to judge Alivia's natural strength.


created: 2003-04-08 19:14:26
subject: <b>Three in a Boat</b>
body:
Look, you have no proof at all that Lanfear is stronger than Alivia. Now, with that out of the way, I have no proof that Alivia is stronger than Lanfear. Now we enter the world of assumptions. <br />Let us assume (for a minute) that, when one embraces Saidar, she amplifies the sense of her strength in the power. We have some basis for this from The Dragon Reborn:<br /><br />&quot;A glow appeared around each Aes Sedai...Slowly the lights spread, until that which seemed to emanate from one woman touched that which came from the woman beside her, merged with it, till there was only one light...And in that brightness was a stronger light still. A bar of bone-white fire. The sa'angreal.&quot; - 163<br /><br />That a novice is able to see a distinction between the amount of power flowing from a woman and the amount of power flowing from the sa'angreal is the important point here. If a novice can sense such, than doesn't it follow that the most powerful of the female forsaken might be able to sense it as well? Even though the angreal is not as strong as the rod sa'angreal, we know that the distinction can be made by someone who cannot even sense the ability to channel in another woman. So what Lanfear(probably) observed was a bright glow around Alivia and a brighter glow around her hand. She wouldn't even have to think about this to know Alivia had an angreal, it would be as obvious as telling whether someone had a drawn sword raised over their head.<br /><br />Also, one has to take into account that Lanfear didn't believe it possible that this woman could be stronger than her in the power. We know that Lanfear is not stupid and she knows that angreal can magnify the amount of power that a woman can use. She was a one power scientist after all!<br />I think we can assume that Lanfear didn't have an angreal because she would probably have used it during her encounter with Graendal.<br /><br />About the &quot;Alivia could burn Lanfear to a crisp without any challenge comment&quot; I have this quote from Winter's Heart for support:<br />&quot;Shock lasted only the time it took her [Cyndane] to slice the other woman's flows. She [Alivia] did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage.&quot; - 649<br />Lanfear wouldn't be in doubt about her ability to overcome a &quot;wilder&quot; if she was not at some other disadvantage. Imagine Bruce Lee and Chuck Noris. Bruce was much shorter and slimmer than Chuck, but he still won the fight. In this fight Chuck outmatched Bruce in the leg and arm length and raw strength department, but Bruce had the training. Alivia was much stronger in this fight and she needed every bit of it. Every time she launched a weave, Lanfear sliced it and the recoil hit her. Keep in mind that she couldn't see Lanfear's weaves and she probably does not know how to slice them anyway. Lanfear's strategy most likely involved setting trees on fire and throwing them at Alivia, lightning, and earth explosions. Now, Alivia has to redirect lightning, blow up incoming trees, and form shields around herself to protect against Lanfear's attacks. We know that Alivia chases Lanfear off, which means that she must have been launching attacks of her own as well. To do all of this without reversing her weaves, she must have been using much more of the power than Lanfear.<br /><br />Sorry I didn't include this in my last post or for any gruffness: I'm not used to arguing.


created: 2003-04-08 19:55:32
subject: <b>Title</b>
body:
&quot;Look, you have no proof at all that Lanfear is stronger than Alivia. Now, with that out of the way, I have no proof that Alivia is stronger than Lanfear. Now we enter the world of assumptions.&quot;<br /><br />While they are assumptions, it is common enough to have very little proof in WoT debates, after all if there was any proof either way in the books we wouldn't be arguing this point.<br /><br />&quot;Let us assume (for a minute) that, when one embraces Saidar, she amplifies the sense of her strength in the power.&quot;<br /><br />I don't think that's an assumption, I think it's correct (though you missed out the words &quot;through an angreal&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Remember the use of the bowl to change the weather? The angreal were given to the strongest channelers. If angreal didn't magnify power (ie. if it just added power), then it wouldn't matter who had them.<br /><br />&quot;We have some basis for this from The Dragon Reborn:<br /><br />&quot;A glow appeared around each Aes Sedai...Slowly the lights spread, until that which seemed to emanate from one woman touched that which came from the woman beside her, merged with it, till there was only one light...And in that brightness was a stronger light still. A bar of bone-white fire. The sa'angreal.&quot; - 163<br /><br />That a novice is able to see a distinction between the amount of power flowing from a woman and the amount of power flowing from the sa'angreal is the important point here. If a novice can sense such, than doesn't it follow that the most powerful of the female forsaken might be able to sense it as well? Even though the angreal is not as strong as the rod sa'angreal, we know that the distinction can be made by someone who cannot even sense the ability to channel in another woman. So what Lanfear(probably) observed was a bright glow around Alivia and a brighter glow around her hand. She wouldn't even have to think about this to know Alivia had an angreal, it would be as obvious as telling whether someone had a drawn sword raised over their head.&quot;<br /><br />Your kind of working against your idea here. If Cyndane could see that Alivia had an angreal, she wouldn't have said: &quot;She must have an angreal, too&quot;. She'd have said: &quot;She had an angreal too&quot;. Basically I think you have to be using a sa'angreal to notice the difference in the brightness of the light surrounding women. Verin has had a secret angreal which she has worn as a brouch for years, surely she's had to use it at some point in front of another sister, you'd think they'd notice.<br /><br />&quot;Also, one has to take into account that Lanfear didn't believe it possible that this woman could be stronger than her in the power. We know that Lanfear is not stupid and she knows that angreal can magnify the amount of power that a woman can use. She was a one power scientist after all!<br />I think we can assume that Lanfear didn't have an angreal because she would probably have used it during her encounter with Graendal.&quot;<br /><br />Well, like I said, I don't think it's likely she did have one, but on the Graendal point, IF she had one Cyndane might not have used it because she didn't want to reveal it until absolutely necessary, Moridin had forbidden her to without his permission, or Graendal's weave was just too damn strong. Still leaves the facing women with angreal in the past possibilty though.<br /><br />&quot;About the &quot;Alivia could burn Lanfear to a crisp without any challenge comment&quot; I have this quote from Winter's Heart for support:<br />&quot;Shock lasted only the time it took her [Cyndane] to slice the other woman's flows. She [Alivia] did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage.&quot; - 649<br />Lanfear wouldn't be in doubt about her ability to overcome a &quot;wilder&quot; if she was not at some other disadvantage. Imagine Bruce Lee and Chuck Noris. Bruce was much shorter and slimmer than Chuck, but he still won the fight. In this fight Chuck outmatched Bruce in the leg and arm length and raw strength department, but Bruce had the training. Alivia was much stronger in this fight and she needed every bit of it. Every time she launched a weave, Lanfear sliced it and the recoil hit her. Keep in mind that she couldn't see Lanfear's weaves and she probably does not know how to slice them anyway. Lanfear's strategy most likely involved setting trees on fire and throwing them at Alivia, lightning, and earth explosions. Now, Alivia has to redirect lightning, blow up incoming trees, and form shields around herself to protect against Lanfear's attacks. We know that Alivia chases Lanfear off, which means that she must have been launching attacks of her own as well. To do all of this without reversing her weaves, she must have been using much more of the power than Lanfear.&quot;<br /><br />Don't forget this is Cyndane's power she's fighting, not Lanfear's. Now my point is this. Cyndane is reduced in strength. Alivia is using more power than Cyndane did when she was Lanfear. However, even with this disparity, Cyndane believes she might be able to win the battle as Alivia can't reverse weaves. While that is undoubtedly an advantage, it seems unlikely it would overcome such a difference. Look at it this way. If Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was even without an angreal, that already puts her at a considerably stronger strength in the power than Cyndane. As if that wasn't enough, Alivia has an angreal. As I've already said even the weakest of angreal will give you at least 50% more power. Nynaeve's angreal (which Alivia was using) is the most powerful of the 3 Elayne discovered. Going on all of this, I'd think it at LEAST doubles strength in the power. So, if Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was even without an angreal as you say, imagine that doubled. What you're saying is, even if Cyndane had Lanfear's strength, Alivia would have been over twice as powerful. Do you think reversed weaves would match that? And don't forget this is Alivia Cyndane is fighting, not some untrained wilder. I forget which Aes Sedai said it, but one commented that she believed Alivia knew practically every possible way to destroy/kill things with the power, but little else. All these things should give Alivia a massive advantage, far too much for Cyndane's reversed weaves to overcome, if she was stronger than Lanfear even without an angreal.<br /><br />&quot;Sorry I didn't include this in my last post or for any gruffness: I'm not used to arguing.&quot;<br /><br />No problem, I didn't really notice any gruffness.


created: 2003-04-09 04:58:38
subject: <b>About the &quot;too&quot;</b>
body:
Read the passage:<br />Cyndane channels fire against Alivia but the web simply came apart. Cyndane knows she must have a ter'angreal. <br />Then she realizes how strong the woman is, &quot;she must have an angreal, too&quot; (besides the web breaking ter'angreal).<br /><br />Therefore Three in a boat is right here. Alivia is only with the angreal stronger than Lanfear was.


created: 2003-04-09 15:39:05
subject: <b>More reasons Alivia is stronger in the power</b>
body:
Etzel - The ter'angreal is in a different paragraph than the &quot;too&quot;.<br />While that isn't proof, Lanfear would immediatly know that Alivia had an angreal when she first saw her embrace the source through it. &quot;She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!&quot; - 649 I think we can assume that Lanfear has seen a woman use and angreal before. And, since she has seen someone using an angreal before, there would be no point to this comment: &quot;That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.&quot; -649 Unless Lanfear was a complete nitwit there is no way she would make a comment like this if Alivia was stronger just because she was using an angreal. Now, about Alivia's strength. We know the three girls, Egwene, Eylane, and Nynaeve, have gained considerable strength in the power since The Shadow Rising, where Nynaeve was as strong as Mogheiden. I would go so far as to postulate that Egwene and Eylane are around the same strength as Mogheiden by Winter's Heart. That would make Nynaeve about as strong as Messana or Semhirage. And &quot;Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve,&quot; - 205 WH. Those facts alone put Alivia in Lanfear's ballpark. Now, the angreal that Alivia was using is the strongest of the three that Eylane found in the wagon. The weakest of which almost doubles the power that one can wield. Path of Daggers - &quot;Aviendha, you know how it feels when you hold as much of saidar as you can? Think of holding almost twice as much.&quot; - 121. Now, by deductive reasoning we can assume that Alivia is, at least, close to Lanfear in strength. Using the braclet and rings angreal, she would be two or three times as strong as Lanfear. How could Lanfear, a one power scientist in the age of legends, even consider that a woman could be that strong without an angreal? Especially because she believes that no woman could be stronger than her. Think about it, Lanfear wouldn't be &quot;shocked&quot; that this woman could use an angreal. She has seen angreal before. She has lived for over 1,000 years and, I believe, she would not be &quot;shocked&quot; easily. What could shock the strongest female forsaken? Hmm....perhaps finding a woman that is naturally stronger in the power than she? Unless you think that she has never seen a woman with an angreal before?


created: 2003-04-10 09:47:16
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
&quot;Etzel - The ter'angreal is in a different paragraph than the &quot;too&quot;.&quot;<br /><br />So? That means nothing.<br /><br />&quot;While that isn't proof, Lanfear would immediatly know that Alivia had an angreal when she first saw her embrace the source through it.&quot;<br /><br />Ermm, hello? Are you just going to ignore points I've made if they don't fit in with your argument? Let me repeat them:<br /><br />1. We've seen angreal in use before without the extra strong glow around them, unlike with sa'angreal.<br /><br />2. Cynadane said &quot;must&quot;. If she KNEW Alivia had an angreal, she wouldn't say must.<br /><br />&quot;I think we can assume that Lanfear has seen a woman use and angreal before. And, since she has seen someone using an angreal before, there would be no point to this comment: &quot;That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.&quot; -649 Unless Lanfear was a complete nitwit there is no way she would make a comment like this if Alivia was stronger just because she was using an angreal.&quot;<br /><br />Yes there is. Even with angreal it would have been incredibly rare for Lanfear to face women stronger than her. So it's a rare event to see someone using more power than she had. Then there's the fact that Jordan might well be trying to give us a hint here by telling us that it's actually impossible to be stronger than Lanfear was, in which case he's going to work it in somehow, having Cyndane disbelieving is a good way.<br /><br />&quot;Now, about Alivia's strength. We know the three girls, Egwene, Eylane, and Nynaeve, have gained considerable strength in the power since The Shadow Rising, where Nynaeve was as strong as Mogheiden. I would go so far as to postulate that Egwene and Eylane are around the same strength as Mogheiden by Winter's Heart.&quot;<br /><br />There's no way to know, but it's pretty pijtnless to the argument anyway, so I'll carry on.<br /><br />&quot;That would make Nynaeve about as strong as Messana or Semhirage.&quot;<br /><br />There's DEFINITELY no way of knowing that. We've had no indication so far of Semirhage's and Messana's srength except that they fall somewhere between Granedal and Moghedien. Who knows how weak Moghedien was compared to those two? After all, she wasn't Chosen for her strength in the Power, she was Chosen for her abilities in TAR.<br /><br />&quot;And &quot;Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve,&quot; - 205 WH. Those facts alone put Alivia in Lanfear's ballpark.&quot;<br /><br />No it doesn't. For the reasons above of course, and also because I don't think you realise quite how strong Lanfear was. She lost enough Power for it to be noticeable (as Cyndane), yet was still stronger than Graendal! We don't know much about the strengths of the Forsaken, but what we do know is enough to say that we can't be certain what &quot;Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve&quot; means. It could mean Semirhage strength, Messana strength, Graendal strength, Cyndane strength. Who knows? It's not enough to base a theory on anyway.<br /><br />&quot;Now, the angreal that Alivia was using is the strongest of the three that Eylane found in the wagon. The weakest of which almost doubles the power that one can wield. Path of Daggers - &quot;Aviendha, you know how it feels when you hold as much of saidar as you can? Think of holding almost twice as much.&quot; - 121. Now, by deductive reasoning we can assume that Alivia is, at least, close to Lanfear in strength.&quot;<br /><br />I'd dispute that (and have), but go on.<br /><br />&quot;Using the braclet and rings angreal, she would be two or three times as strong as Lanfear.&quot;<br /><br />Thanks for finding that quote, I'd think 3 at the least if the weakest angreal doubles the strength.<br /><br />&quot;How could Lanfear, a one power scientist in the age of legends, even consider that a woman could be that strong without an angreal?&quot;<br /><br />For a start you're working from a base of her being stronger, or at least very close to Lanfear's power. Triple a lesser power and it's not as much, though still a lot.<br /><br />&quot;Especially because she believes that no woman could be stronger than her. Think about it, Lanfear wouldn't be &quot;shocked&quot; that this woman could use an angreal.&quot;<br /><br />She's just shocked at the rarity of it. Another part of the shock would no doubt come from her ignorance of these times. She believes that if it isn't an Aes Sedai in front of her (which she can tell from Alivia's face), then it could only be a wilder or a normal, non-channeling woman. She probably would never even contemplate that a simple wilder could be anywhere near her old strength, let alone that she'd know how to use an angreal or even have one! The Forsaken are finding it hard enough to find angreal, what hope could a wilder have? Then she gets over the shock of being hit by such power and actually starts to think.<br /><br />&quot;She has seen angreal before. She has lived for over 1,000 years and, I believe, she would not be &quot;shocked&quot; easily.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps she wouldn't be shocked easily, but I would think with her view of channelers in this Age, her arrogance in her strength, her lack of rivals in that area, the fact that she believed Alivia to be a wilder at best...to be hit with such power would be a shock.<br /><br />&quot;Hmm....perhaps finding a woman that is naturally stronger in the power than she?&quot;<br /><br />Well of course that would shock her, but so would what I've said above.<br /><br />&quot;Unless you think that she has never seen a woman with an angreal before?&quot;<br /><br />No one thinks that.<br /><br />Look, this has become a very simple scene to understand now we've discussed it all. You're entire argument is based on a &quot;too&quot;, which I've given a couple of explanations for (not great ones, but possible) and Etzel has given a very good and likely one for. You then just ignore things I bring up:<br /><br />1) Cyndane wasn't close enough to feel strength in the power without Alivia holding it. Yet half your argument is that she can somehow tell Alivia's strength without her having an angreal! How?! When Verin's little group face Granedal, they're in exactly the same situation. Verin cannot believe how strong this woman is, even for a Forsaken. Well that isn't surprising! Graendal has a ring angreal! IF it was possible to judge her strength separately from the angreal, Verin would have done it, and wouldn't be in such awe (given that she's been around Alivia and Nynaeve so much). So until you explain just HOW Cyndane could possibly judge Alivia's strength without an angreal, then there's no point in the rest of your argument as it all becomes impossible. And an explanation that Lanfear will have faced angreal wielding women before and therefore can just tell, isn't very good.<br /><br />2) Cyndane is weaker than she was when she was Lanfear. Yet you're saying Alivia minus the angreal is stronger than Lanfear was. As if that wasn't enough, we now have an angreal that is likely tripling her strength at least. So now we have Cyndane fighting a woman who knows practically every possible way to destroy things, who's well over 3 times stronger than her. Not only that, Alivia has a ter'angreal which prevents direct attacks upon her! If all that was so, the odds are overwhelmingly on Alivia's favour. Yet Cyndane believes that reversed weaves alone will be anough to, if not defeat Alivia, to escape the battle alive. I don't think Cyndane would believe that if she was facing a woman well over 3 times stronger than her. The fact that Cyndane believes reversed weaves might be enough suggests to me that Alivia's strength with the angreal isn't that much more than Lanfear's without one. I realise that makes Lanfear ridiculously strong, but then, why not? If this theory is true (the maxing out of a woman's possible strength in the power by the Finn), then it doesn't seem so far fetched anymore.<br /><br />You can dismiss the second point if you like, perhaps reversed weaves really are that great, that much of a clincher in a battle, but there are still other points to get past.<br /><br />You say you're not used to arguing, so if I could suggest some advice (which you can throw back in my face if you like): argue until you start finding yourself arguing just because you don't want to give up on your point. Step back from your argument and look at the scene again, with all this info. Ask yourself how Cyndane could possibly know Alivia's strength without an angreal. Look at Etzel's reasoning for the &quot;too&quot; and see how it fits in with everything. If you STILL want to argue that Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was, then ok, but it's going to get prettu tired soon, I'm not sure there's much more we can bring up about the scene.<br /><br />If all you want is some acknowledgement that your explanation is a possibility, then ok. I don't think there's any definite proof against it, so it's a possibility. Only like a 5% possibility compared to Etzel's 95%, but there's the chance.


created: 2003-04-10 22:40:29
subject: <b>Just thought I'd add my two cents</b>
body:
First off, for all those who haven't seen this theory, you obviously didn't pay much attention just after WH came out cause I remember people saying this, more or less.  I still feel the same way as I did then, it doesn't work, there's no evidence.  The quote provided really doesn't back up anything, all it does is let you know that Lanfear was as strong as a woman could be, just as Rand and Ishy are as strong as men can be, there's nothing more to it.  In fact the AS in CoT also refer to the highest level for women and say that Sharina may be able to obtain it.  So there it is, the statement is merely fact, no woman could be stronger than Lanfear was, just cause that's the way it is, nothing more complicated than that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 03:45:28
subject: <b>Uhh, Jim...</b>
body:
If there is a limit, and Lanfear reached it, how could Alivia be stronger?<br /><br />I suppose you could explain it by subscribing to the interpretaion that Cyndane came to the conclusion that Alivia was using an angreal as a way to explain how she could be more powerful. But I personally do not agree with that take on things. Someone made a good point above about women being able to see the difference in what a woman channels and what is channeled through an angreal (sa'angreal in the example given above).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


