# w_theory

created: 2007-07-17 04:22:56
subject: Elaida Foretells Her Defeat
body:
<p>&quot;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.&quot;<br /><br />In this theory, I'll try to explain what to make of all this.<br /><br />There are two ways this Foretelling could be translated, with either the rebels winning over the Tower, or Elaida winning the rebel's war. But, most of us are probably leaning toward Elaida getting her butt kicked. So that's how this goes.<br /><br /><br />&quot;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever.&quot; - The rebels win the war against Elaida, those who follow her are killed/stilled/cast out, and my guess is that Last Battle will be about to happen when the rebels defeat Elaida, so the Tower will come together to fight the Dark One, therefore 'whole and stronger than ever'.<br /><br />&quot;Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger.&quot; - Egwene will be angry (I'm guessing it has to do with the Black Tower, and the Asha'man) and Rand will meet with her and know her anger. Note that it doesn't say 'Rand al'Thor will kneel to the Amyrlin' or 'will be dragged unwillingly to the Amyrlin Seat to be gentled or held', it says he will /face/ the Amyrlin.<br /><br />&quot;The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.&quot; - By the end of Knife of Dreams, we should all be aware that Mazrim Taim is a darkfriend or Forsaken in disguise even (theorize about that among yourselves), so The Black tower being defeated will probably be for the best. And, I'm guessing, when Rand faces Egwene in the Tower, it is after Rand realizes that Taim and his Asha'man are stinkers, and he's asking Egwene to help bring down the Black Tower. Therefore, 'sisters will walk its grounds'.<br /><br />&quot;This I Foretell.&quot; - I think that means she foretold it. <br /><br />And there it is, in a nutshell. The possible translation of Elaida's foretelling.  What do ya' think?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2007-07-18 05:07:38
subject: Asmodean: A new perspective on a fringe suspect
body:
<p>(sorry for the spelling/grammar mistakes, english is not my mother tougue)<br /><br />I am writing this theory because I think the whole &#8217;Who killed Asmodean?&#8217; needs a &#8220;fresh&#8221; view, or at least a new and somewhat farfetched theory. I never liked the Graendal/Sammael theories because up until that point in the books they have not been very active. I agree that most things point to Graendal though. I won&#8217;t get into that here since others have done it before.<br /><br />I find the process of elimination somewhat overly complex to fit with the &#8220;intuitively obvious&#8221; issue, so is my theory but hey, it was fun to do the research! <br /><br />The clues to finding out the killer&#8217;s identity should be pretty close to Asmodeans death for it to be obvious who the killer is. RJ wants us to brood over who killed him, but he also wants us to find out if we look close enough I think.<br /><br />I think the clues lie in the battle between Rahvin and Rand/Nynaeve.<br /><br />First I will tell you who killed Asmodean according to my theory. I must point out, though, that I&#8217;m not entirely convinced myself. Lews Therin Telamon killed Asmodean.<br /><br />I will borrow the requirements from . <br /><a href="http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/WOTFAQ//1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html" target="_blank">The Wheel of Time FAQ</a> <br />The list of requirements would thus be:<br /><br />1. Means: be able to kill Asmodean (a channeler) near-instantaneously<br /><br />2. Motive: have a motive<br /><br />3. Opportunity: be able to be in the Caemlyn palace at the time of the murder<br /><br />4. Be a person who Asmodean recognized, who he didn't expect to see, and of whom he was terrified<br /><br />5. Be able to dispose of the body<br /><br />6. Must know Asmodeans fate<br /><br />7. There must be a reason why it's kept a secret, by the author and the killer<br /><br />8. Be &quot;obvious&quot; from the instant he died (and we use the term loosely.)<br /><br />9, Other clues<br /><br />I will go over the points and add quotes from the books supporting my claim. Observe that I know there are some weak points in my reasoning <br /><br />1, MEANS<br /><br />I believe he was killed by the power, saidin or saidar. He had time to utter the famous words &#8220;You? No!&#8221;, thus he had enough time to react with the power to any mundane attack. It is also unlikely that anyone who was not a channeler would have frightened him to the degree that he was to shocked to react with saidin. We also know that he could use saidin enough to fight off trollocs and perhaps even myrdraal from Rands POV after the battle.<br /><br />&quot;And Asmodean, sword held awkwardly and trying to look every way at once in case any Trolloc decided to turn back. Rand could sense saidin in him, though weakly; he did not think much of Asmodean's fighting had been with that blade&quot; [TFOH: 55, The Threads Burn, 676].<br /><br />Based on this I think it is pretty safe to assume that Asmodean was killed by a wielder of the OP.<br /><br />If we postulate, for the  sake of discussion, that Lews Therin killed Asmodean we can also safely assume that LTT had both the know-how of the OP and the strength (either his old strength from the AoL or Rands current strength) to kill the semi-shielded Asmodean without a problem.<br /><br />2, MOTIVE<br /><br />This one is a given. <br /><br />Since Rand knows who Jasin Natael really is, Lews Therin knows that as well. The only things Lews Therin hates more than regular shadow spawn are the Forsaken. Well, perhaps he hates himself more. This is not something that needs to be discussed.<br /><br />The question is, was it a chance killing or premeditated? I believe it was a chance killing or perhaps a combination, I will explain that later.<br /><br />3, OPPORTUNITY<br /><br />Here is where the main part of my argument comes. This is also where it is the weakest.<br /><br />How can Lews Therin do anything without the aid of Rand&#8217;s body and Rand not knowing about it? Well, he can&#8217;t. I am suggesting that for a time, Lews Therin got his own body. Here is how it could have happened.<br /><br />Rand is chasing Rahvin down halls freezes a myrdraal and a few trollocs. He then has trouble separating himself from Lews Therin in his head. He regains himself and continues.<br /><br />FoH Ch 55 <br />&#8220;Rand&#8212;he thought that was his name&#8212;channeled in a way he could not remember doing before.&#8221;  - &#8220;Rand could feel the cold&#8212;yes, that was his name; Rand&#8221; - &#8220;Go in peace,&#8221; Rand said, putting out a hand. Al&#8217;Thor. Yes, Rand al&#8217;Thor.&#8221;<br /><br />After this Rahvin attacks him with balefire and Rand returns balefire of his own.  &#8221;He had only a moment&#8217;s warning to throw himself flat, a hair-thin slice of time between feeling flows suddenly woven and an arm-thick bar of white light, liquid fire, slicing through the wall, ripping across like a sword through where his chest had been. Where that bar slashed, on both sides of the hallways, wall and friezes, doors and tapestries ceased to exist. Severed wall-hangings and chunks of stone and plaster broken free rained to the floor. [&#8230;] Balefire leaped from his hands, a brilliant white shaft streaking toward where that other bar had originated. The other failed even as his punched through the wall, leaving a purple afterimage fanning across his vision. He released his own flow. Had he done it finally?&#8221;<br /><br />I believe this is where Asmodean is when he reflects on the balefire damage done in the palace right before he dies.<br /><br />FoH Ch 56<br />&#8220;There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.&#8221;<br /><br />Rand continues and sees the gateway Rahvin made to TAR. Rand copies it and observes that Rahvin must be close and actively trying to sense it for him to feel it. FoH Ch 55 &#8220;Rahvin would have felt that gate if he was close enough and trying.&#8221;<br /><br />This is somewhat important later on. There seems to be a difference between regular gateways and gateways to (and from?) TAR. The latter ones appear to require less OP and leave a weaker residue.<br /><br />He searches for Rahvin and notices that Lews Therin has been quiet since the balefire incident. Lews Therin will be back soon though.<br /><br />At this point Rand is starting to feel odd. He has no idea what is happening and just watches the process continue.<br /><br />&#8220;He felt odd. Insubstantial. He raised his arm, and stared. He could see the garden through coat sleeve and arm as through a mist. A mist that was thinning. When he glanced down, he could see the walk&#8217;s paving stones through himself.&#8221;<br /><br />Next: <br />&#8220;No!&#8221;, not Rands own thought and the image of Lews Therin begins to coalesce. &#8220;I am Lews Ther-&#8220; in Rands head. Rands body stops to disappear and instead the physical characteristics of Lews Therin Telamon begin to replace Rands. &#8220;No! It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. I am Lews Ther&#8212; I am Rand al&#8217;Thor, Rand broke in. He did not know what was happening, but the faint Dragon was beginning to fade from the misty arm held in front of his face. The arm began to look darker, the fingers on his hand longer. I am me. That echoed in the Void. I am Rand al&#8217;Thor.&#8221; Rand catches on and wills himself into full existence again. He wonders why Lews Therin tried to take him over. This is a case of when the POV is wrong I believe. First Rand starts to feel insubstantial, he&#8217;s about to die since he is in TAR in the flesh. Rand does not know this and he doesn&#8217;t know how to fight it. Lews Therin does though. The only way to save Rand/LTT is to will it not to happen, to will himself into existence again. Since Rand is not doing this, Lews Therin takes matters into his own hands so to speak, he thinks &#8220;No!&#8221; as a reaction to, what I believe is, Rahvins attack and tries to will himself back into existence. Rand notices himself beginning change into Lews Therin and realizes how to combat this. He wills himself back fully.<br /><br />From this we can conclude that whoever is attacking him from the first time isn&#8217;t Lews Therin and isn&#8217;t using saidin, since Rand would have seen the flows and felt the channeling. It is also unlikely that this is the result of saidar since Rand would have felt that too. We can assume that the attack is caused by someone using their will in TAR. We can also assume that this someone is Rahvin because of the lack of other suspects. Rahvin wouldn&#8217;t try to change Rand into Lews Therin though because Lews Therin is a far, far more dangerous enemy than Rand. Rahvin simply tries to kill Rand by making him disappear.<br /><br />So, we can assume that Rahvin tries to will Rand from existence, Lews Therin combats this by trying to regain substance, Lews Therins own substance, not Rands. Rand finishes up and becomes himself again.<br /><br />After this we have no clear proof of Lews Therin in Rands head again until LoC Ch1. There is a thought in Rands head when he sees all the maidens that have died in the battle: &#8221;Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long. It was not his thought, but he took it. It seemed a good way to avoid going mad before the taint on saidin drove him to it.&#8221;<br /><br />We cannot assume that this is Lews Therin. It could very well be, but Rand would probably have mentioned his first appearance since TAR if that was the case. It is probably just a quote Rand has heard that drifts in, not his original though, but a good one nonetheless. Also, Lews Therin would probably just wail about his wife or the forsaken or wanting to die, not a coherent thought.<br /><br />Here comes the main thing of my theory. I think that when Lews Therin responds to Rahvins attack he wills himself into existence in TAR, Rand then pushes this image away. But since this is TAR and not the real world, Lews Therin gains actual substance and a life of his own, at least for a short time. The will is a powerful thing in TAR.<br /><br />We know through Slayer that a person with two different personalities can exist. Slayer seems to be able to shift between Luc and Isam at will in TAR and then step out into the real world. I do not propose that this is exactly the case with Rand and Lews Therin, but we can imagine that strangeness can happen in TAR and that there is a precedent of two persons inhabiting the same body and that TAR has a part to play.<br /><br />If one can change ones entire appearance in TAR when in the flesh, why couldn&#8217;t a disembodied will (Lews Therin in Rands head) will itself a new body?<br /><br />I know there is little proof of what I&#8217;m stating, but it&#8217;s worth considering in my humble opinion. How did Lews Therin end up in a position to kill Asmodean then? We continue with the battle.<br /><br />Rand gets surrounded by water and attacked by fishes. He fights balefire and his will, beating off the attack. Lews Therin does not help, he doesn&#8217;t even speak.<br /><br />Rand continues on and sees the remnants of a weave. A gateway. Since he actually sees the remnants we can assume that it is saidin that has created it and that it happened while Rand was surrounded by water and fishes, otherwise he would have felt the channeling and seen the actual gateway. <br /><br />Rahvin was the obvious attacker yet again and we are led to believe that he is the one who made the gateway. If the gateway was made while Rand was in the water and Rahvin made it we have to ask ourselves why he made it. Did he realize that Rand would fight off the TAR attack and then be fooled by the fake gateway? How long does it take for a gateway to fade? Could or would Rahvin even create a gateway while holding his focus on the water and fishes while dodging Rands balefire? If he could he had at least three opportunities to balefire Rand. When Rand turns to Lews Therin, when Rand is in the water and when Rand is turning to the beast. He didn&#8217;t use those opportunities to kill Rand though. From Moggy we know that Rahvin is weaker in TAR than Moggy, perhaps he cannot focus on transforming something in TAR and channel at the same time? <br /><br />FoH Ch 55 &#8220;&#8220;Be quiet,&#8221; Nynaeve said absently. &#8220;Unless you&#8217;ve lied to me, that is an advantage. For me.&#8221; The other woman claimed that being in the World of Dreams physically limited your control of the Dream. Or rather, she admitted it, after letting a bit of the knowledge slip. She had admitted, too, that Rahvin did not know Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod as well as she. Nynaeve hoped that meant he did not know it as well as she did.&#8221;<br /><br />We can&#8217;t be sure but I believe that it could have been Lews Therin who created the gateway while Rand and Rahvin fought. Rahvin could have believed that Rand created the gateway to escape from TAR or even thought that Rand used the gateway to set a trap for him and just waited for Rand to show himself. We only have Rand&#8217;s interpretation of it, nothing else.<br /><br />Rand begins to transform to some sort of beast, making it hard for him to channel, Rahvin is doing this too. Rand is failing and would have died if Nynaeve didn&#8217;t intervene. Observe that this time Lews Therin doesn&#8217;t help Rand. He doesn&#8217;t even comment on it even though this is more or less the same thing as when Rahvin tried to unmake Rand earlier. Could Lews Therins inaction be because he actually isn&#8217;t there?<br /><br />Rand balefires Rahvin and that&#8217;s the end of that. We now continue to the events leading up to the murder.<br /><br />Rand watches Aviendha, Mat and Asmodean. They are sitting by the fountain that Rand was at in TAR when Lews Therin took form. There are benches in both scenes, trees and a fountain. Rand isn&#8217;t in the same place Rahvin was though.<br /><br />FoH Ch 56 &#8221;The high window had more than enough room for Rand to stand in it, stretching far above his head and clearing his shoulders by two feet to either side. Shirtsleeves rolled up, he stared down at one of the Royal Palace&#8217;s gardens. Aviendha was trailing her hand in the fountain&#8217;s redstone basin, [&#8230;] Mat was sitting on the coping of the basin, talking to her. [&#8230;] Asmodean sat on a bench in the shade of a red myrtle tree, playing his harp.&#8221;<br /><br />Asmodean gets bored and wanders off looking for wine. We know that he&#8217;s outside when he starts to walk and that he goes inside at some point. He notices the damage caused by the balefire Rand used against Rahvin (the ones Rahvin used might still be there too, I don&#8217;t know whether damage by balefire are re-created if the person who made them is in turn balefired).<br /><br />We can thus assume that he isn&#8217;t far from where the final battle between Rand and Rahvin took place. &#8220;He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.<br />&#8220;You? No!&#8221; The word still hung in the air when death took him.&#8221;<br />Here he stumbled across the now free Lews Therin who had stepped out of TAR with his own gateway during the battle close to where Asmodean now is. Was Lews Therin walking around aimlessly or was he watching Asmodean and took the opportunity when it arose? I have no idea.<br /><br /><br />4. BE A PERSON WHO ASMODEAN RECOGNIZED, WHO HE DIDN&#8217;T EXPECT TO SEE, AND OF WHOM HE WAS TERRIFIED<br /><br />Obviously Asmodean would recognize Lews Therin Telamon, the Tamyrlin, the Dragon, the Champion of the Light. Lews Therin would also recognize Asmodean. Since Lews Therin has been dead for a very long time, Asmodean would of course be surprised to see him, so surprised and terrified (Lews Therin was the most powerful channeler in the AoL and he hates the Forsaken, death is a fact for Asmodean at this point) in fact that he might have frozen for a moment, not thinking about defending himself.<br /><br />5, BE ABLE TO DISPOSE OF THE BODY<br /><br />Using the OP or TAR Lews Therin could have done with the body as he pleased. We can&#8217;t really tell how much of the OP would be used for disposing or creating a gateway to TAR so we cannot assume that Rand would have heard it. Either way Lews Therin is skilled enough to hide his weaving from others. If he indeed took the body to TAR then that might have caused him to slowly re-integrate into Rand&#8217;s body again. But that&#8217;s just a wild guess.<br /><br />6, MUST KNOW ASMODEANS FATE<br /><br />This is irrelevant for Lews Therin as a suspect since he only talks to Rand and he hasn&#8217;t told Rand anything about Asmodean. This is another weak point in my theory. Why would Lews Therin keep that a secret? I have no answers. Perhaps he wants to hide his ability to separate from Rand in TAR?<br /><br />7. THERE MUST BE A REASON FOR THE SECRECY<br /><br />As the WoT FAQ states, the one obvious reason RJ don&#8217;t tell us who the killer is, is because there is something concerning the killing that he wants to keep hidden. My overly complicated theory would fit this since it can be used again if say Rand and Lews Therin are to be separated for Tarmon Gaidon or something similar.<br /><br /><br />8. OBVIOUS FROM THE POINT OF DEATH<br /><br />Well&#8230; it all depends on how one defines &#8216;obvious&#8217;. The first time I read FoH back when it came out I thought that Lews Therin had split with Rand due to the strangeness of TAR and that Lews Therin materialized and then went quiet. I also thought that the gateway was made by Lews Therin and when Asmodean got killed I still had Lews Therin running loose fresh in my mind. When Lews Therin reappeared in Rands head I didn&#8217;t give it much more thought and assumed I was wrong. Later, after reading other peoples theories I abandoned the LTT notion and went with Graendal. Now I decided to research my original belief and present it here. I know it&#8217;s crazy, but since it is what I believed from the beginning it could be argued that it is intuitively obvious, at least for a young mind back then.<br /><br />9, OTHER EVIDENCE<br /><br />RJ has stated that the killer was introduced in FoH. Lews Therin Telamon was introduced as the very first character in The Eye of the World prologue. It can be argued that this is where he was introduced. But as a character of the series he is introduced in his current state in chapter 2 of FoH.<br /><br /><br />SUMMARY<br /><br />1, When Lews Therin took shape in TAR during Rand&#8217;s battle with Rahvin he materialized as a separate entity from Rand. We have Slayer to show us that TAR has strange effect on split personalities.<br /><br />2, He made a gateway out of TAR to the real world. We do not know that Rahvin made it to fool Rand; we can even argue that Rahvin was too focused on keeping the water and fishes at Rand and dodging balefire to create the gateway.<br /><br />3, Lews Therin killed Asmodean by chance or by planning. Asmodean would have recognized Lews Therin, he would have been VERY surprised and he would indeed have been terrified since he knew that Lews Therins appearance meant his death.<br /><br />Thank you for reading and please comment. Both support with other proof (if you find any) and constructive criticism of flaws will be appreciated. Observe that I know that this theory is quite crazy and that it requires quite a lot of supposing and guessing.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2007-09-09 02:54:14
subject: The nature of reality at Shayol Ghul
body:
<p>This theory is an attempt to draw some conclusions about the nature of reality at and around Shayol Ghul (SG).  It focuses primarily on scenes from LoC onward, when we can be fairly certain RJ had fleshed out most of his ideas, but it also tries to reconcile the conclusions with the Dark Friend Social (DFS) scene in TGH (see the Appendix at the end, for relevant quotes), and with a couple of Rand/Ishamael(Ba'alzamon) scenes in TEotW.<br /><br />Note: I posted a version of this theory on the MB a few weeks ago.  This version is similar, but not exactly the same, as I've incorporated some of the feedback I received on the MB into it.  My thanks to those who participated in that discussion, and provided valuable feedback.<br /><br />In WH and KoD, we learn some things, from Demandred and Aran'gar respectively, about the place where the Forsaken meet:<br /><br />From WH &quot;Wonderful News&quot;, Demandred's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>Graendal had chosen the setting, since she had been first to arrive, and it irritated him.  View-walls made the striped wooden floor appear to be surrounded by a forest full of brightly flowered vines and fluttering birds that were even more colorful.  Sweet scents and soft birdcalls filled the air.  Only the arch of the doorway spoiled the illusion.  Why did she want a reminder of what was lost?  They could as soon make shocklances or sho-wings as a view-wall outside of this place, close to Shayol Ghul.</blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The room has striped wooden floors, an arched doorway, and view-walls.<br />- According to Demandred, the room is close to SG (Ishamael says the same about the place where the DFS is held).<br />- Demandred doesn&#8217;t mention that the meeting is in Tel'aran'rhiod (TAR), but it's not precluded by his observations.<br /><br />From KoD &quot;At the Gardens&quot;, Aran'gar's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>Aran'gar arrived in answer to Moridin's summons, spoken into her furious dreams, to find him not there. &#8230; Eleven tall armchairs, carved and gilded, sat in a circle in the middle of the striped wooden floor, but they were empty. &#8230;The chairs jarred with the rest of their surroundings.  The room appeared to have view-walls, though the stone arch of a doorway destroyed the illusion.  The chairs could have been anything, here in Tel'aran'rhiod, so why not something to suit the room, and why eleven when that was surely two more than needed? &#8230; Why not the usual dilating door of a view-room?<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />A golden-haired, ever-smiling zomara in a flowing white blouse and tight breeches bowed fluidly and offered Aran'gar a crystal goblet of wine on a silver tray.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />The emerald necklace Delana had provided went much better with her own green satin silks.  Of course, while the emeralds were real, her silks were a product of the World of Dreams.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />Suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces.  One was tall and wide, with yellow eyes, of all things, while the other was not quite slender and wore a cheeky grin.  Creations of Tel'aran'rhiod, they moved stiffly and their expressions never altered.</blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The room has striped wooden floors, an arched doorway, and view-walls (same as Demandred's room in WH).<br />- Aran'gar doesn&#8217;t mention that the room is close to SG, but it's not precluded by her observations.<br />- According to Aran'gar, the meeting is in TAR.<br />- Zomaran are present (like at the DFS).<br />- Illusions of Mat and Perrin are created (like at the DFS).<br /><br />Clearly, the WH &amp; KoD meetings were held in the same place; in both instances, the room had striped wooden floors, an arched doorway, and view-walls.  <br /><br />Demandred must be correct about the room being near SG; after all, he has to Travel there, and he must know where he Travels to.   Therefore, the room is probably part of the same complex (of multiple buildings, perhaps) where the DFS took place, and in which Moridin resides (more on that below).  Henceforth, this complex shall be referred to as &quot;Shadow Headquarters&quot;, or SHQ for short.<br /><br />And, Aran'gar must be correct about the meeting being in TAR; it's mentioned three separate times in the KoD scene, and her comment on her clothing &#8211; that the emeralds she wore were real, but the dress was a product of TAR &#8211; leaves very little doubt that the meeting was, in fact, in TAR.  Although Aran'gar isn't the most reliable source of information, she can hardly be wrong about her own dress.<br /><br />Therefore, it seems certain that in both instances, the meetings took place in the TAR reflection of a particular room at SHQ.<br /><br />Which makes Demandred's comment, <i>They could as soon make shocklances or sho-wings as a view-wall outside of this place, <b>close to Shayol Ghul</b></i>, puzzling.  The implication is that it's their proximity to SG, not the fact that they are in TAR (which Demandred never mentions), which enables them to create a view-wall there.  Otherwise, the last part of the quote should have read &quot;outside of TAR&quot;, say, rather than &quot;outside of this place, close to SG&quot;.<br /><br />But, Aran'gar seems to think otherwise &#8211; her thoughts indicate that she thinks the view-walls are an illusion created in TAR.<br /><br />Before addressing that apparent discrepancy/contradiction, let's take a look at some other scenes that (presumably) take place at SHQ:<br /><br />From LoC &quot;The First Message&quot;, Osan'gar's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>The gilt-framed mirror reflected the room, the disturbingly patterned mosaics on the walls, the gilded furnishings and fine carpets, the other mirrors and the tapestries.  A palace room without a window &#8211; or a door. &#8230; Something blurred in the mirror, and he turned, not too quickly. &#8230; There still was no door, but a Myrddraal [Shaidar Haran] shared the room with them.  Neither thing was strange in this place, but the Myrddraal stood taller than any Osan'gar had seen before.</blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The room has no doors or windows.<br />- Although not explicitly stated, the room is quite likely near SG, given the specifics of the scene.<br />- According to Osan'gar, it's not uncommon for an ordinary Myrddraal to appear in such a room.<br />- The scene probably does not occur in TAR; at least, there's no indication that it does, and there's no compelling reason why it would, given what transpires.<br /><br />From TPoD &quot;Deceptive Appearances&quot;, Moridin's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>The room might have been in a grand palace, except that it had neither windows nor doors.  The fire on a golden marble hearth gave no heat, and the flames did not consume the logs.  The man seated at a table with gilded legs, centered on a silk carpet woven with glittering threads of gold and silver, cared little for the trappings of this Age.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />A servant approached, a slim graceful young man clad all in white, impossibly handsome, bowing as he presented a crystal goblet on a silver tray.  He smiled, but it did not touch his black eyes, eyes more lifeless than simply dead.</blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The room has no doors or windows (like Osan'gar's room in LoC).<br />- The fire in the fireplace gave off no heat, and the flames did not consume the logs (like at the DFS).<br />- A Zomara is present (like at the DFS, and at the Forsaken meeting in KoD).<br />- Although not explicitly stated, the room is quite likely near SG &#8211; specifically the place, presumably, where Moridin resides.<br />- The fact that the fireplace gave off no heat, and the flames did not consume the logs, suggests the scene occurred in TAR.  But, there's no compelling reason for the scene to take place there.  Consequently, I believe the scene did not occur in TAR, despite the weird fireplace (I'll address how that can be later).<br /><br />From ACoS &quot;Mindtrap&quot;, Moghedien's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>No door or window broke the featureless stone walls of her small prison, and there were no glowbulbs or even lamps, but light came from somewhere.  She did not know how many days she had been there, only that tasteless food appeared at irregular intervals, that the single bucket serving for sanitation was emptied at even more irregular times, and soap and a bucket of perfumed water were somehow left for her to clean herself.  &#8230; Shaidar Haran was in the cell with her now.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />Moghedien's eyes snapped shut. &#8230; Abruptly the hand in her hair rushed her forward, and she screamed in spite of herself.  The Myrddraal meant to run her into the wall.  Her hands went up for protection, and Shaidar Haran released her.  She staggered at least ten steps &#8211; but her cell was not ten paces corner to corner.  Wood smoke; she smelled a faint touch of wood smoke.<br /><br />She opened [her eyes] cautiously.  [Moridin] &#8230; watched her &#8230; from a deep, cushioned armchair in front of a marble fireplace where flames danced along long logs.  She stood in a wood-paneled room that might have belonged to a wealthy merchant or noble of moderate rank in this time, the furniture lightly carved and touched with gilt, the rugs woven in red-and-gold arabesques.  She did not doubt it was somewhere close by Shayol Ghul, though; it did not have the feel of Tel'aran'rhiod, the only other possibility. &#8230;The Myrddraal was nowhere to be seen.</blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The prison cell has no doors or windows (like Osan'gar's room in LoC, and Moridin's room in TPoD).<br />- Although not explicitly stated, the prison cell is quite likely near SG, given the specifics of the scene.<br />- Shaidar Haran could enter the prison cell (like he could Osan'gar's room in LoC).<br />- The prison cell has an unknown source of light, much like TAR does.  While this suggests that the prison cell is in TAR, it's difficult to say for sure since Moghedien was in a vacule at the time, and we know virtually nothing about the nature of reality inside a vacule.<br />- SH &quot;transported&quot; Moghedien from the prison cell to Moridin's room.<br />- Moghedien assumed Moridin's room was near SG, since it did not feel like TAR, and they were the only two possibilities (as far as she was concerned).<br /><br />Since Moghedien is a reliable source of information on TAR (being the noted expert that she is), we can (and should) assume she is correct that Moridin's room was not in TAR.<br /><br />But, the last note is puzzling.  What about Moridin's room made Moghedien so certain that &quot;near SG&quot; and &quot;TAR&quot; were the only possibilities?  <br /><br />Well, perhaps the room had no windows and doors (and RJ failed to mention it).  Or, perhaps the fire in the fireplace gave off no heat, and did not consume the logs (and RJ failed to mention it).  The problem with the latter idea is that Moghedien smelled wood smoke, so it would seem that there was an actual fire.  Or, perhaps the room simply felt different to her than the &quot;normal&quot; world, but not different in the same way that TAR feels different to her.  I prefer the last explanation, but it could have been a combination of all 3.<br /><br />Regardless though, Moghedien's comment strongly implies that, like reality in TAR, reality around SG (including at SHQ) differs from that of the &quot;normal&quot; world.  Apparently, reality there can be manipulated (by the DO certainly, and probably by Ishamael/Moridin as well &#8211; more on that below), like it can in TAR, only perhaps to an even greater extent, given Demandred's observation about view-walls only being possible <i>there</i>.<br /><br />There is further evidence supporting that idea:<br /><br />From LoC &quot;The First Message&quot;, Demandred's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote> Demandred stepped out onto the black slopes of Shayol Ghul, and the gateway, a hole in reality's fabric, winked out of existence.  Above, roiling gray clouds hid the sky, an inverted sea of sluggish ashen waves crashing around the mountain's peak.  Below, odd lights flashed across the barren valley, washed-out blues and reds, failing to dispel the dusky murk that shrouded their source.  Lightening streaked up at the clouds, and slow thunder rolled.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />One of the forgers [of Myrddraal swords] emerged [from a gray-roofed forge] &#8230;  <b>The forgers were not truly alive; carried any distance from Shayol Ghul, they turned to stone, or dust.</b><br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />Abruptly, he noticed something.  Every time he had made this journey [through the tunnel in Shayol Ghul to the Pit of Doom], those spikes [jutting from the ceiling of the tunnel] had all but brushed the top of his head.  Now they cleared the Myrddraal's by two hands or more.  That surprised him.  Not that the height of the tunnel changed &#8211; <b>the strange was ordinary here</b> &#8211; but the extra space the Halfman was given. &#8230; <br /><br />The tunnel opened out suddenly onto a wide ledge overlooking a lake of molten stone, red mottled with black, where man-high flames danced, died and rose again.  There was no roof, only a great hole rising through the mountain to <b>a sky that was not the sky of Thakan'dar</b>.  It made that of Thakan'dar look normal, with its wildly striated clouds streaking by as though driven by the greatest winds the world had ever seen.</blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The forgers can only &quot;exist&quot; near SG, implying that reality there differs from reality in the &quot;normal&quot; world.<br />- The DO manipulates reality in the tunnel leading to the PoD.<br />- The sky seen from the PoD differs from the sky seen from the Thakan'dar valley, implying that reality in the PoD differs from the reality that encompasses the Thakan'dar valley and SG.<br /><br />And from ACoS &quot;Mindtrap&quot;, Moghedien's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>She was familiar with the sloping tunnel [in Shayol Ghul to the Pit of Doom] ceilinged in stone daggers like fangs, the walls glowing with pale light. &#8230; Those spikes and blades still cleared the strange, too-tall Myrddraal easily, but though it overtopped her by head and shoulders and more, she was forced to move her head around their points now.  <b>Reality was clay to the Great Lord here</b>, and he often made his displeasure known so.  A stone tooth truck her shoulder, and she ducked to go under another.  There was no longer enough height in the tunnel for her to straighten as she walked. &#8230; The ceiling descending, the Great Lord's fangs to rend traitors and fools, and Moghedien dropped to hands and knees, crawling, then flattened to elbows and knees.  &#8230; Panting, she wriggled the last distance to the sounds of ripping wool.  <br /><br />Staring back over her shoulder, she shivered convulsively.  Where the tunnel mouth should have been stood a smooth stone wall.  Perhaps the Great Lord had timed it all exactly, and perhaps, had she been slower &#8230; <br /><br />The ledge on which she lay projected above a black-mottled red lake of molten rock where flames the size of men danced and died and reappeared.  Overhead, the cavern rose roofless through the mountain to a sky where wild clouds raced, striated red and yellow and black, as if on the winds of time themselves.  <b>It was not the dark-clouded sky seen outside on Shayol Ghul.</b></blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The DO manipulates reality in the tunnel leading to the PoD.<br />- The sky seen from the PoD differs from the sky seen from the Thakan'dar valley, implying that reality in the PoD differs from the reality that encompasses the Thakan'dar valley and SG.<br /><br />From these two scenes, we can see that not only does reality near SG differ from reality in the &quot;normal&quot; world, but also that reality in the PoD differs from reality outside it.  In fact, I would speculate that the reality as seen from the PoD is that of the DO's prison, and may be what is in store for Rand's world should the DO break free of his prison and win the Last Battle.<br /><br />This idea is further supported in TEotW:<br /><br />From TEotW &quot;Tellings of the Wheel&quot;, Rand's PoV (while dreaming):<br /><br /><blockquote>The sun &#8230; stood stark against a leaden cauldron of a sky where clouds of sharp black and silver roiled and boiled on every horizon. &#8230; Below him a sheer rock wall fell away, a thousand-foot cliff plummeting into a vast canyon.  Steamy miss covered the canyon floor, their thick gray surface rolling in grim waves, rolling and breaking against the cliff beneath him, but more slowly than any ocean wave had ever moved.  Patches of fog glowed red for an instant as if great fires had suddenly flared beneath, then died.  Thunder rumbled in the depths of the valley, and lightening crackled through the gray, sometimes striking up at the sky. &#8230; From the center of the furious vapors a mountain thrust upward, a mountain taller than any he had ever seen in the Mountains of Mist, a mountain as black as the loss of all hope.</blockquote><br />In the scene above, Rand dreams of the Thakan'dar valley and SG, and does <i>not</i> see the striated sky as seen from the PoD, but rather the same leaden sky full of roiling gray clouds that Demandred (in LoC) and Moghedien (in ACoS) observed.<br /><br />What this all suggests to me is, the Dark One has the ability to alter/manipulate reality not only in the PoD, but also for some distance outside it (and has done so).  This ability is certainly strongest in the PoD, where, for example, the DO can mindtrap people (as Moghedien says in ACoS), and create Grey Men (as RJ stated in a Q&amp;A).  But the ability also appears quite strong &quot;near SG&quot; (including at SHQ), where, for example, the DO can animate the forgers, and (as I speculate) has provided a TAR-like reality to the entire area.   Further away from SG the ability weakens apparently, but is still strong enough for the DO to create the Blight.<br /><br />Furthermore, the TAR-like reality that the DO provides in the area near SG enables Ishamael/Moridin to manipulate it to a certain extent, at least at SHQ if not the whole area, to suit his needs and wishes.  This manipulation very like requires the use of the TP (since it's the DO's reality that Moridin is manipulating), and therefore only Moridin (of all the Forsaken) currently has this ability.<br /><br />These ideas provide a satisfactory explanation (to me, at least) for the two issues I raised previously. Specifically:<br /><br />1. Why Moghedien (in ACoS) was certain Moridin's room was near SG, since it didn't feel like TAR, and they were the only two possibilities.  That is, she sensed that the reality of the room was similar to TAR (i.e. quite different from the &quot;normal&quot; world), but not quite the same.  And, therefore, &quot;near SG&quot; was the only other possibility, since SG was the only other place she knew of where reality was both &quot;different&quot; and &quot;TAR-like&quot;.<br /><br />2. Why Demandred (in WH) implied that view-walls could only be made &quot;in that place, close to SG&quot;, rather than saying they could only be made &quot;there, in TAR&quot;.  That is, the reality around SG is unique, to the extent that view-walls (and probably other AoL technology as well) can now only be made there (and in its TAR reflection &#8211; more on that below); they could not, for example, be made in the TAR reflection of the &quot;normal&quot; world (and, therefore, Aran'gar is wrong when she thinks of the view-walls as simple TAR illusions).<br /><br />Given the above, there are a few other questions to consider:<br /><br />3. What sky would be seen from SHQ?  Would it be the striated sky as seen from the PoD?  Or, would it be the leaden sky with roiling dark gray clouds as seen from the Thakan'dar valley and the slopes of SG?  In other words, does SHQ &quot;exist&quot; in the reality as seen from the PoD?  Or, does it &quot;exist&quot; in the reality that encompasses the Thakan'dar valley and SG?<br /><br />The comment from Ishamael in the DFS &#8211; that the meeting was &quot;in the shadow of SG&quot;, the comment from Moghedien in ACoS &#8211; that she did not doubt the room was &quot;close by SG&quot;, and the comment from Demandred in WH &#8211; that they could just as soon make shocklances and sho-wings as view-walls &quot;outside this place, close to SG&quot;, all suggest that the latter is the correct answer, since they all specifically mention a proximity to SG.<br /><br />However, the striated sky is mentioned 3 other times, in earlier books:<br /><br />From TEotW &quot;The Stag and Lion&quot;, Rand's PoV (while dreaming):<br /><br /><blockquote>After a long time, he decided to try one of those doors [in the hallway he found himself in].  It opened easily, and he stepped through into a grim, stone-walled chamber.  One wall opened in a series of arches onto a gray stone balcony, and beyond that was a sky such as he had never seen.  <b>Striated clouds in blacks and grays, reds and oranges, streamed by as if storm winds drove them, weaving and interweaving endlessly.</b>  No one could ever have seen a sky like that; it could not exist.<br /><br />He pulled his eyes away from the balcony, but the rest of the room was no better.  Odd curves and peculiar angles, as if the chamber had been melted almost haphazardly out of the stone, and columns that seemed to grow out of the gray floor.  Flames roared on the hearth like a forge-fire with the bellows pumping, but gave no heat. </blockquote><br />From TEotW &quot;Against the Shadow&quot;, Rand's PoV (after a voice tells him &quot;NOT HERE&quot; ):<br /><br /><blockquote>He climbed [the steps that had appeared in front of him] and suddenly a door stood before him, its surface rough and splintered and old, a door well-remembered. &#8230; The chamber, too, was as he remembered, the mad, <b>striated sky beyond the balcony</b>, the melted walls, &#8230; the terrible fireplace with its roaring, heatless flames.</blockquote><br />Note that in both of these TEotW scenes, Rand subsequently confronted Ishamael.<br /><br />From TGH &quot;In the Shadow&quot; (DFS), when Ishamael gave Bors instructions that he would not consciously remember, Bors saw (amongst other things):<br /><br /><blockquote>An impossible sky of striated clouds, red and yellow and black, racing as if driven by the mightiest wind the world had ever seen.</blockquote>.<br />In the TGH scene, Ishamael implanted images of the PoD reality in Bors' head (probably for propaganda purposes), so it tells us nothing of the nature of reality at SHQ itself.  However, in the two TEotW scenes, Rand appears to go to a place similar to SHQ, and sees the striated sky reality in those instances.  I see a few possible explanations for that:<br /><br />a. Rand was at SHQ, and the reality he saw was the true reality of that place.  In that case, SHQ exists in the PoD reality.<br /><br />b. Rand was not at SHQ, but some &quot;other&quot; place that exists in the PoD reality.   Note that the &quot;place&quot; Rand was in at the time was quite strange &#8211; for example, it had weird, melted walls, and a fireplace with anguished faces of men and women embedded in it, that we've never seen at SHQ since (not even at the DFS).  So, this idea has some merit, I think, and allows for SHQ to exist in the reality that encompasses the Thakan'dar valley and SG.<br /><br />c. Rand was at SHQ, but the reality he saw was an illusion created by Ishamael (like he created in Bors' mind), in order to frighten Rand.  In that case, SHQ exists in the reality that encompasses Thakan'dar valley and SG.<br /><br />&quot;a&quot; and &quot;b&quot; imply that Ishamael had access to the PoD reality at the time.  Which is possible.  Many people believe he was still partially trapped in the Bore at the time, given his limited ability to act in the &quot;normal&quot; world (it seems he could only Dream himself into TAR, then).  If the PoD reality is the DO's prison (as I've speculated), it may also encompass the Bore, in which case it would make sense that Ishamael, still being partially trapped in the Bore, had access to it, and could, conceivable, draw Rand there in his Dreams (how Rand got there in the second TEotW episode is less clear &#8211; Rand may have done it on his own somehow, Ishamael may have drawn him there again, or maybe the Creator lent a hand).  Whether Moridin <i>still</i> has access to the PoD reality, now that he's entirely free of the Bore, is hard to say.  Perhaps not, in which case SHQ must exist in the reality that encompasses Thakan'dar valley and SG &#8211; otherwise, Moridin and the other Forsaken would be unable to reach it.<br /><br />While the answer to this question is certainly unclear, I think most of the evidence suggests that SHQ exists in the reality that encompasses the Thakan'dar valley and SG, not in the reality as seen from the PoD.  And, therefore, that the &quot;striated sky&quot; scenes from TEotW were a glimpse of someplace else.<br /><br />4. How can the idea that the Forsaken meetings in WH &amp; KoD (and also the DFS) were held in the TAR reflection of SHQ be reconciled with the following RJ quote, from our FAQ:<br /><br /><blockquote>You cannot enter the Blight from Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod because it is apart from the normal universe and cannot be touched.</blockquote><br />On the one hand, this quote fits nicely with what I've suggested.  RJ seems to be saying that the whole Blight (which encompasses SG, the Thakan'dar valley, SHQ, and a whole lot more), is a &quot;different reality&quot; - i.e. &quot;apart from the normal universe&quot;, and not part of the Pattern, presumably.<br /><br />On the other hand, how can those meetings take place in TAR if the Blight (and therefore SHQ) is not reachable from (i.e. reflected in) TAR? <br /><br />One possibility is that there is a TAR associated with the area in and around SG (and perhaps, actually, for the entire Blight) &#8211; let's call it SG-TAR - that is separate from the TAR associated with the rest of the world/Randland &#8211; let's call it RL-TAR.  And, only the Forsaken know how (and/or are permitted, by the DO) to reach SG-TAR.  That idea would fit with RJ's quote above, if we were to interpret the quote to mean &quot;you cannot enter the Blight from RL-TAR, because the Blight is not reflected in RL-TAR but rather in an entirely different one&quot;.<br /><br />Another possibility is that there is only one TAR, and the Blight <i>is</i> reflected there, but the DO uses his Power to prevent everyone except the Forsaken from entering it (for obvious security reasons).  That makes RJ's comment about why the Blight can't be reached from TAR a little misleading &#8211; he says it's because &quot;the Blight is apart from the normal universe&quot;, when in fact the answer would, technically, be because &quot;the DO won't allow it&quot;.  But, it's not a total contradiction.<br /><br />Either way, SHQ <i>is</i> reflected in a TAR of some sort, despite the quote above.<br /><br />5. How were Zomaran, Trollocs, &amp; Myrddraal able to attend the DFS, in TAR?  And, how were Zomaran able to attend the Forsaken meeting in KoD, in TAR?<br /><br />We know they could not be brought there via Gateways, since Shadowspawn cannot survive passing through one (I'm assuming that's true for both OP-created and TP-created Gateways).<br /><br />One possible explanation is that Myrddraal brought the Zomaran and Trollocs to those meetings.  Which would mean that Myrddraal are able to use their move-in-shadows tricks to enter TAR, and bring other Shadowspawn with them, as well as to move about in the Real World.  That's quite possible &#8211; in fact, Moghedien's thoughts in ACoS - that Moridin's room was either in TAR or near SG - suggests it <i>is</i> possible; otherwise, she'd have eliminated TAR as a possibility simply because a Myrddraal had brought her there, not because the place didn't feel like TAR.  If true, though, it does beg the question, &quot;why don't Myrddraal use TAR to move Trollocs from one part of the continent to another, rather than the Ways?&quot;  TAR would certainly be safer and, presumably, faster.<br /><br />Another possible explanation, which ties in with the ideas in this theory, is that it's the uniqueness of the reality at and around SHQ that enables Shadowspawn to attend meetings in it's TAR reflection.  Since, as speculated, the reality around SHQ is TAR-like, that may enable all Shadowspawn to enter and exit the TAR reflection of it on their own, without needing a Myrddraal to do it for them.  We know the DO was able to provide Slayer the ability to enter and exit TAR from anywhere; it's certainly not out of the question that he could provide a similar (albeit limited) ability to Shadowspawn as well, in a TAR-like reality that he himself created.<br /><br />Unlike the first idea, this second idea wouldn't require Moridin to keep a Myrddraal handy simply to move his Zomaran around SHQ (i.e. in and out of rooms with no doors or windows) or in and out of the TAR reflection of it.<br /><br />Note that the second idea doesn't necessarily preclude the first.  Myrddraal may very well have the ability to enter and exit TAR anywhere, not just around SHQ.  That would certainly explain how all the Darkfriends were brought to the DFS, for example (since it's unlikely Ishamael did it himself &#8211; not only would that be &quot;beneath&quot; him, but it's unclear whether he was even capable of opening Gateways into the Real World at the time).<br /><br /><b>Summary</b><br /><br />- The reality as seen from the PoD is different from the reality outside it.  The reality as seen from the PoD is likely the reality of the DO's prison.<br />- The DO has created a reality that encompasses the Thakan'dar valley, SG, and SHQ that is separate from the reality of the &quot;normal&quot; world (and also from that seen from the PoD).  He has given that reality TAR-like properties, and is able to manipulate it to a very large extent (although not to the same extent that he can manipulate reality at the PoD).  Moridin can also manipulate that reality, at SHQ at least, but to a much lesser extent than the DO can.<br />- SHQ (and probably the entire reality of which it is a part) is reflected in TAR, but is only reachable by the Forsaken (and Shadowspawn).<br /><br />Note:  I also considered the possibility that all of the SHQ scenes mentioned throughout this theory occurred in TAR, and that SHQ actually only exists in TAR.  However, Moghedien's comment in ACoS &#8211; that Moridin's room did not feel like TAR &#8211; is strong evidence against that idea, IMO.  Moghedien is an expert in TAR &#8211; her opinion should be trusted, I think (unlike, say, Aran'gar's).<br /><br /><b>Appendix</b><br /><br />From TGH &quot;In the Shadow&quot;, Bors PoV (various quotes):<br /><br /><blockquote>If one did not look too closely, the huge room could have been in a palace, with its tall marble fireplaces and its golden lamps hanging from the dome ceiling, its colorful tapestries and intricately patterned mosaic floor.  If one did not look too closely.  The fireplaces were cold, for one thing.  Flames danced on logs as thick as a man's leg, but gave no heat.  The walls behind the tapestries, the ceiling high above the lamps, were undressed stone, almost black.  There were no windows, and only two doorways, one at either end of the room.  It was as if someone had intended to give the semblance of a palace reception chamber but had not cared enough to bother with more than the outline and a few touches for detail.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />Servants circulated through the guests, slender, golden-haired youths proffering wine with a bow and a wordless smile.  Young men and young women alike, they wore tight white breeches and flowing white shirts.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />The tall doors at the far end of the chamber swung open, and two Trollocs stepped into the room, spikes decorating the black mail that hung to their knees.  &#8230; Ignoring the humans, the Trollocs turned back toward the door and bowed, servile and cringing.  &#8230; A Myrddraal stepped between them, and they fell to their knees.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />The figure of a man floated in the air above the Myrddraal, the hem of his blood-red robe hanging a span over the Halfman's head. &#8230;&quot;I have been known by many names, but the one by which you shall know me is Ba'alzamon.&quot; &#8230; The servants were gone, and the Trollocs as well, though [Bors] had not seen them go. &#8230;  &quot;The place where you stand lies in the shadow of Shayol Ghul.&quot;<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />The air to Ba'alzamon's left shimmered and thickened, and the figure of a young man hung there, a little lower than Ba'alzamon. &#8230; A country lad, by his clothes, with a light of mischief in his brown eyes and the hint of a smile on his lips, as if in memory or anticipation.  The flesh looked warm, but the chest did not move with breath, the eyes did not blink.<br /><br />The air to Ba'alzamon's right wavered as if with heat, and a second country-clad figure hung suspended a little below Ba'alzamon.  A curly-haired youth, as heavily muscled as a blacksmith.<br /><br />For the third time air solidified into the shape of a young man, this time directly under Ba'alzamon's eye, almost at his feet.  A tall fellow, with eyes now gray, now almost blue as the light took them, and dark, reddish hair.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />He started at a touch on his arm, and looked around to find one of the white-clad servants, a young man, standing by his side.  &#8230; He blinked.  Ba'alzamon was gone.  The Myrddraal was gone, too, and only rough stone was where the door it had used had been.  The three figures still hung there, though.<br /><br />&#8230;<br /><br />The man who called himself Bors did not feel at all comfortable until he was back in the room where he had waited on first arriving, and then not much.  Even finding the seals on his saddlebags untouched was small comfort.  The servant stood in the hallway, not entering.  &quot;You may change to your own garments if you wish, my Lord.  None will see you depart here, nor arrive at your destination, but it may be best to arrive already properly clothed.  Someone will come soon to show you the way.&quot; </blockquote><br />Note:<br />- The fire in the fireplace gave off no heat, and the flames did not consume the logs (like Moridin's room in TPoD).<br />- The room &quot;lies in the shadow of Shayol Ghul&quot; (like Demandred observes about the Forsaken meeting in WH).<br />- Zomaran, Trollocs, &amp; Myrddraal are present (Zomaran are also present in Moridin's room in TPoD, and the Forsaken meeting in KoD).<br />- Illusions of Mat, Perrin, and Rand are created (similar illusions are created in the Forsaken meeting in KoD).<br />- Although not explicitly stated, the meeting is almost certainly in Tel'aran'rhiod, given the similarities to the Forsaken meetings in WH &amp; KoD.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2007-09-21 10:43:24
subject: Serving the Dark One is morally OK? Or how I learned to stop worrying and love Ishamael
body:
<p>This is a rather long theory so let us break it up into several parts, which we will consider separately.<br /><br />1) What is the Wheel of Time?<br />a) it doesn't exist<br />b) it is finite<br />c) it is infinite<br /><br />2) Can the DO break free in principle?<br />a) yes<br />b) no<br /><br />3) What will happen if he does?<br />a) destruction of the Wheel and total oblivion<br />b) 'Dark Ages' where the world is full of evil and a good 'Creator' figure takes the DO's place, while the DO becomes non-interventionist.<br />c) linear time with neutral people - neither utopia nor dystopia, aka our own world, where the DO, in breaking his prison, is forced to become non-interventionist.<br />d) dystopian linear time where the Shadow covers and the land and evil reigns.<br /><br />After outlining possible paths, I will consider the morality of serving the DO.<br /><br />--------------------------------------<br /><br />The Wheel of Time is the mechanism which weaves human lives, soulthreads, into the Pattern which forms the substance of reality for each Age, as defined by RJ. I can't remember whether an 'Age' is ever defined, but let us consider it as the periods on a time graph when the DO's power peaks before being checked. The purpose of the Wheel is to keep the DO imprisoned. The evidence for its existence is overwhelming, and if noone objects I'll exclude 1a straight away.<br /><br />Now we will consider several logical paths from the above.<br /><br />1) If it is assumed that the DO cannot break free in principle, then the whole question of what will happen if he does becomes moot. What this means is that the Wheel of Time is woven in such a way as to exclude the possibility of the DO being freed. The Creator (there almost certainly is one for a universe with such an artificial cosmology, as the chances of it evolving by chance approach zero) is an omniscient being, outside of Time, who works the loom and can gaze into the future via a time graph, being outside of Time. The loom in general maintains order and harmony within the fabric, which is a circular garment, despite the savage creature within which tries to tear itself out of it at one point while the garment spins around it. Every time the fabric comes around again, it is changed slightly by the loom. If the Creator notices the yarn becoming chaotic, spangled and ripped further on, It will take actions to remedy the problem in time. Spew out ta'veren and Heroes in an emergency. Radically increase ta'veren powers as needed. If the savage creature has nearly poked its ugly head out of the garment, smother it over with chance. The Dragon is prostrate at Moridin's mercy and the DO is moments from being free. Moridin has a change of heart, procures the Choedan Kal and seals the Bore with Rand and their new best buddy Semirhage. An impossible scenario, but less so than the DO getting free, which is ABSOLUTELY impossible. Another consequence is that it makes no difference as to whether there have been infinite or finite turnings, 1c or 1b. Given enough turnings, with legend fading to myth fading to nothing, it makes no meaning to the observers, DO and humans, trapped alike within the Wheel, their fates, eternally or otherwise, dependent on the Creator's whim. <br /><br />Hence consider I) 1? - 2c - moot<br /><br /><br />2) Let us consider 1c, that the Wheel has seen infinite turnings (something implied by the books - there are 'neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the WoT'). Also let us assume that 2a, ie that the DO can break free in principle. But in this case, HOWEVER low the probability of this happening in any particular Age, it WILL happen eventually given an infinite number of turnings. <br /><br />The DO explicitly states as his intention to slay the Great Serpent, which can lead to either 3a - what Ishamael apparently believes, 3d - which the Forsaken and Darkfriends hope for i.e. eternal dominion. However, if the Wheel has been turning infinitely long, these possibilities are impossible. 3c is not possible for the same reasons.<br /><br />Hence the only path from here is to 3b. The Age of Legends is described as being close to utopia. Hence its likely in such a situation that the world will become a dystopia, but like the AoL with no interventionist deities. However, there is a need for a good imprisoned Creator figure who swaps places with the DO. (Otherwise, 3b becomes equivalent to 3d). Now you have the swap. Persecuted Lightfriends trying to free the Creator.<br /><br />Hence consider II) 1c - 2a - 3b<br /><br />3) Let us assume 1b, the Wheel of Time has been spun a finite number of times, and that the DO can break free in principle, ie 2a. In such a scenario, 3a, 3b, 3c and 3d are all possible. Let us label these paths:<br /><br />III) 1b - 2a - 3a<br />IV) 1b - 2a - 3b<br />v) 1b - 2a - 3c<br />VI) 1b - 2a - 3d<br /><br />And consider them in turn.<br /><br />III) If the DO can break free, no matter how low the probability, eventually he will in a finite number of rounds/Ages/game sessions. If that results in eternal oblivion for the soul pool - no more threads available to be occupied - well that's just too bad, but inevitable.<br /><br />IV) There will be a series of Dark Ages. This is identifical to II, except that here the Wheel turnings are finite instead of infinite. However, this point is moot since no observer inside the Wheel, at least in the AoL, would have been able to tell. So we shall consider IV equivalent to II.<br /><br />V) The DO breaks free, creating linear time. However, since he is now outside Time, he is no longer able to influence the world. It becomes essentially like ours in its cosmology, governed by (ever accelerating) evolution.<br /><br />VI) The DO breaks free, and his presence permeates linear time. The Creator is unable or unwilling to contain him. (Note that in both situations, if the Creator WERE to intervene and put the Dark One back in, it would be equivalent to I, and if the Creator and DO were to swap places, it would be equivalent to II, the only difference being that the Wheel would have to be patched up, or replaced.) There follows a linear time, also governed by evolution, but heavily influenced, or dominated, by evil.<br /><br />--------------------------------------<br /><br />From the perspective of an educated person within the Wheel, say from the AoL, we have reached a few conclusions on what the actual nature of the Wheel is.<br /><br />I) Slavery<br />I have a piranha which I keep in an acquarium, ie a prison. Being not very intelligent, and without further information, it doesn't realize that it is a prison. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter, since if it were to break out, it will not be able to have a proper social life amongst humans. In fact, it would die, unless I throw it back into its acquarium in time, for its own good. I imprison the piranha in an acquarium, nor do I shove my hand into the acquarium, I rather value my fingers. Nor am I evil for enslaving the fish, as I am sure you will all agree. That is another metaphor for the Creator and the DO.<br /><br />But human souls are also enslaved within the Wheel. Yes, they have a measure of free will. They can decide to go right or go left, they can decide whom to marry, can even decide to serve the DO (how else to have a hope of breaking the Wheel?, but in the majority of cases for baser reasons). But they are essentially constrained by the glass walls of the acquarium. In a million reruns of the aforementioned Moridin and Rand scenario, Moridin would keep the Dragon bound and will free the DO. But...he won't. Not in the WoT universe. He will express remorse at the last minute and help Rand seal the Bore. Or he'll slip and break his neck on the grass. Whatever happens, the DO doesn't get free. And Moridin will remain a slave along with the rest of humanity.<br /><br />II, IV) Dark Ages<br />The WoT is the platform for a finitely or infinitely long battle, or game, between the Creator and the DO. They agree to swap places whenever one of them manages to break out. While we consider the DO to be evil, that is not necessarily so; to play with the Creator implies an intellectual gap between him and us so great as for our concepts of good or evil to be non-applicable to them. Yes, the DO from his influence does exert what we perceive as an evil force - however, maybe the DO is constrained while imprisoned to radiate such a force. Heck, maybe its the rules of the game. In any case, humans within the WoT are still effectively slaves, pawns for higher pleasures.<br /><br />III) Total Oblivion<br />The inevitable. I believe when Moridin says that 'death holds no fear' for him, this is what he means. It will come sooner or later, and why not appreciate and understand the causes of your own and the world's final demise?<br /><br />V) Earth<br />Welcome to our world.<br /><br />VI) Dark Earth<br />Welcome to a world under the Shadow.<br /><br />--------------------------------------<br /><br />Let us step into Elan Morin's shoes. (Note that this is not necessarily what he really thought - really, it is just what I think he might have thought). In the Guide, it says he wrote books with titles like the 'Reality and the Absence of Meaning', etc. Indeed, what was the point of life? You were born, grew up, enjoyed life, had children, grew old and died. Yet civilization was curiously static - an unchanging utopia - despite the fact that the world population then numbered in the billions, was well educated, lived long, healthy and generally happy lives. This is in direct contrast to our civilization, which has had its ups and downs, but in the long run has been growing exponentially in its technological prowess. Agriculture = 10000yrs ago, Industrial Rev = 230 yrs ago, Information Rev = 30 yrs ago. Examples can be provided ad nauseam. But in the AoL, there were no computers. Even if the power infrastructure didn't exist, you can use the One Power. But Aes Sedai, the elite, were extremely conservative. Even mass production didn't really exist for Power appliances - notice how all ang'real/ter'greal are different. The only ones which were made in a sizable batch that we know of are the binding rods.<br /><br />I assume the existence of the Wheel was known in the AoL - after all, they had fragments (myths) about earlier ages, and some people had the voices of their previous life in their heads. Elan had assumed that the Wheel was unbreakable by any means he could imagine. The tyranny of monotony and hence his books with depressive titles. So he was understandably quite excited over the implications arising from the drilling of the Bore and the discovery of an entity which wanted to break free and apparently destroy the Wheel (and remake the world in its own image).<br /><br />He turned to the Great Lord. The DO might even have presented a pleasant face to the world in those early days. Who knows? (If he didn't, wouldn't he have been isolated and cordoned off from civilization while they could?). Elan might not have wanted to become what we understand as evil when he first went to Shayol Ghul, along with the other Forsaken who joined early on, e.g. Lanfear, who in the Aiel history chapter in Shadow Rising was described as once being a pleasant person. But who knows what effects the connection with the DO, the black cords, has on even a decent person's psyche? Until that is known, it is not fair to judge those Forsaken who joined early on, just as we do not judge the mentally unbalanced but seek to cure them. (On the other hand, those who joined late, when the DO's true face was there for all to see, like Sammael and Demandred, don't have this excuse).<br /><br />Why did he turn?<br /><br />Consider the possible outcomes.<br /><br />The DO is defeated. Try again in another life. What is there to lose? In the long run, nothing, and everything (or nothing) to gain.<br /><br />I and II are possible, in which humanity is permanently imprisoned within the Wheel, unable to progress and constantly leaking accumulated knowledge. On the other hand, it is NOT certain that this is indeed the case. <br /><br />If it isn't, then Elan might have imagined himself a fighter for progress. In a world where misery is close to nonexistent, making people unhappy (e.g. by feeding them to Trollocs) might not have seemed particularly bad, considering the bigger picture of breaking the wheel, unbounding Prometheus and eventually reaching a post-singularity civilization capable of simulating its own universes and using them as its playing fields. So utiliarianism, at least for the present day, can be dismissed. And what is the instrinsic value of good, in a world whose Gods are too advanced to be able to even understand the concept, and in a world where it is in such abundance, but where it fails to make progress?<br /><br />But if I and II are really the case, then what's the great evil in leading a life of great evil, if its going to be diluted by so many turnings of the Wheel that observers can't tell whether or not there is an infinite amount of turnings? It's like feeling guilty over shoplifting once in a lifetime of say 77 years which is US life expectancy today. <br /><br />If the result is total oblivion, again, why not? If it CAN happen, it WILL happen, sooner or later. Why not end it and have the satisfaction of seeing your theory come true before your eyes, and to know the REASON for why you and reality fade away into nonexistence on the Day of Return?<br /><br />Same reason for the Dark Earth scenario. It might not be a pleasant world, but it is an INEVITABLE one, in the long run. Why not get yourself a front-row seat? Besides, while the DO is very powerful, he is not necessarily omnipotent even when free. There is a chance that he might be defeated, which I believe was Lanfear's idea with her talk of challenging the DO, and even the Creator, with Rand. Let the DO break the Wheel, then destroy him. If she and Rand using the Choedan Kal wouldn't be able to do it, no-one could. Maybe she didn't love Rand particularly; maybe, she didn't even love power, as such, not in the way LTT accuses her of loving it. She also wants progress, to drive progress, and why not be in the driving seat while you're at it?<br /><br />As for neutral Earth, well, that's where we're at now. Apparently we have complete free will, are bound by purely physical constraints, but are constantly pushing these constraints further and further away via technology. Achieving such a goal is laudable. The Wheel would no longer grind away all previous knowledge, no matter how hard people try to preserve it and expand upon it. Leaving Moridin a lot less frusrated, amongst other things...<br /><br />--------------------------------------<br /><br />In conclusion...<br /><br />1) From the point of view of longterm progress, fighting for the Dark One is unequivocally good. Success is highly uncertain, but there is nothing to lose.<br /><br />2) Ultimately, it is also OK from a utilitarian perspective. If you're wrong, in the big scheme of things, later good will balance out today's evil. If you're right, then either all suffering will cease (oblivion), or there will be ever greater opportunities to do good (neutral linear time), as well as bad. Hence an apparently neutral effect from longterm utilitarianism. But then again... progress tends to vastly improve life. In prehistoric hunter-gatherer cultures, life expectancy is in the low 20's and around a tenth of people die violent deaths. Today in advanced industrial countries, life expectancy is 75-82 yrs and the murder rate typically 1-6/100,000. Anarcho-primitivists might argue earlier societies were happier and sustainable, but given the choice I know which period I, and the vast majority of people, will choose to live in. Hence the overall effect might even be somewhat positive.<br /><br />3) It is wrong from the perspective of the Abrahamic religions and their ethics, by which most of us live whether we subscribe to these religions or not. But even here, there are caveats. 1st, Shai'tan probably presented a pleasant image when he was first discovered. Otherwise he'd have been warded off, guarded and resealed, I'd imagine. The first Forsaken who joined him were not necessarily 'evil'. 2nd, religions need their sacrificial scapegoats. Shai'tan (Satan) is one, as is his chief lieutenant Ishamael (Judas Iscariot?). Yes, according to the Bible Jesus was supreme good, Judas supreme baseness. Yet might they not be swapped, because of the former's self-righteousness and latter's vilification in the face of what they had to do? (If Judas doesn't betray Jesus, how is Jesus supposed to die for our sins?). I'm really going off on a tangent here, the point is even from a Judeo-Christian ethics point of view things aren't entirely clearcut.<br /><br />4) Depending upon one's viewpoint, serving the DO (helping him break out) can well be morally good. This is not to say the converse, that serving the Light is bad. It's good from the viewpoint of those who strongly believe in 3). Bad from those who value progress especially high ie 1). An interesting consequence is that in a sophisticated society like that of the AoL these ideas that serving the DO can be justified were more socially acceptable, whereas in today's world Darkfriends are regarded as 'witches' and atheists were seen in our medieval past.<br /><br />5) We need a major rethink about the motivations and characters of the Forsaken, above all that of Ishamael, to a lesser extent Lanfear. (Ironic that by this analysis the two most important of the Chosen are also the most sympathetic - if it is indeed the case that they came to the conclusions outlined here).<br /><br />While their crimes while serving the DO are not justifiable in themselves by most ethical systems, they might be if considered as means to a possibly better end. There is also of course the question of whether they can be put on trial, i.e. whether their link with the DO, by affecting their mental state, makes them answerable for their actions. That is certainly the case for Semirhage, who is disturbed and needed psychiatric care long before the Bore was drilled, as did possibly Graendal and Aginor to a lesser extent. <br /><br />The stated excuses for the others are not valid, however, as they were typically based on a desire for power, immortality or some kind of revenge or payback for alleged wrongs. Nonetheless, even in those cases it must be noted that the end they work towards can be considered good, even if by foul means and selfish motivations. The same goes for most Darkfriends and Black Ajah we have encountered so far.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2007-10-07 08:21:35
subject: Serving the Dark One is morally OK? or Struggle over Suicide
body:
<p>Following on from my last theory, &quot;Serving the Dark One is morally OK? Or how I learned to stop worrying and love Ishamael&quot;...I present this - the story of how Ishamael slept the butterfly dream, scorning suicide and embracing struggle.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />The Age of Legends sounds to me like a final end of history (in the Hegelian-Kojevian sense). Descriptions of that Age would fit the label of a 'universal and homogenous state'. According to Plato, the human soul is divided in desire, reason (a fusion of which drives economic progress, i.e. natural science in the service of appeasing material wants) and thymos (roughly understood as a 'desire for recognition').<br /><br />The AoL is basically a communist society, because virtually every material need can and is met through co-ordinated usage of the Power. What sets people apart - what gives them recognition - is their social status as a result of their works, accomplishments, etc. The official side of this is the grant of a third name.<br /><br />Hence desire is satisfied, but thymos is impossible to ever adequately satisfy. For in a society there always exist tensions between two different kinds of people - megalothymiacs (those who want others to recognize them unequally), and isothymiacs (those who pride themselves on equal recognition). When there are no more wars to be fought FOR equality, the only object of rebellion becomes the tolerant, posthistorical society from whence the megalothymiacs came.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />A separate branch of the whole process of moving up Maslow's hierarchy, achieving self-realization, etc, is the dawning of the concept of moral relativism, which negates our normative ethics. Is universal recognition IN ITSELF a worthy goal? That is the contradiction at the heart of liberal democracy. If everyone has an inherent right to freedom of thought and of speech, who is to say that there will not appear a violent revolt against the very conditions that allowed such concepts to take root in the first place?<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />We've identified two factors - the rise of moral relativism, and the boredom of megalothymiacs in a posthistoric society. The edifice of Kojeve's 'universal and homogenous' state strains under the weight of its own contradictions. If it rains megalothymiacs, who freeze in the coldness of moral relativism, the whole structure comes tumbling down on the 'men without chests' who in vain try to shelter within it and unleashes 'immense wars of the spirit' between Supermen who go 'beyond good and evil'. OK, I'll tone down on the Nietzschean rhetoric...where was I going with this?<br /><br />Oh, yes. We also have to consider the cosmology of the WoT. As pointed out in my previous theory, there have been turnings of the Wheel beyond number. Hawkwing makes reference to the hundred times he made battle with, or against, Lews Therin. Frankly, such a long period of exploitation of the earth's resources, for one, is impossible without there being very visible degradative effects. OK, maybe the planet is Healed with the One Power? Maybe. Suppose it is. But how to explain the One Power in terms of physics? How to explain the Dark One, his True Power, the World of Dreams, The Worlds That Might Be, etc?<br /><br />What I am getting at is that the chances that such a system has evolved by itself, before settling into a constant cyclical steady state that we observe now, with its revolutionary rises and cataclysmis falls, are next to nil. The alternative to evolution is that the WoT is an artificial construct; a playground for the thymos.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Let me advance a theory of the origins of WoT...by extrapolating OUR own future. According to Kojeve, history (in the dialectical, not events-based) senses, ended in 1806 at the Battle of Jena, which brought the products of the French revolution - equality and liberty - to the corner of Germany where Hegel lived. Since then, liberal market democracy has consolidated its grip on the world, enveloping most of the America's, Europe, Japan, South Korea and south and southeast Asia.<br /><br />Fast forward. Barring a major disaster like a global thermonuclear war or environmental collapse, and liberal democracy is the norm throughout the whole world, reality as well as ideal. War and struggle have petered out - democracies, based on rational principles, rarely fight each other. Technological progress has enabled us to simulate virtual realities, including minds and virtual universes.<br /><br />Yet the old paradox creeps up. How to reconcile equality and freedom, isothymia and megalothymia? And why not commit suicide, in a world of no values?<br /><br />The existentialist view is that while there is no inherent meaning to life, it DOES NOT mean that each individual cannot create his or her own values to give that meaning.<br /><br />Those who avoid committing suicide, play games. Perhaps each individual has so much calculating power at their disposal that each can create a universe to play with themselves. Maybe the central government, whatever it means by that time, creates a simulation to relieve social pressures by providing an outlet for emissions of superfluous megalothymic energies.<br /><br />But what values are powerful enough to give value to life in an absurd world devoid of an ultimate Reason? In my view, it is the emotion of love, and consequently hate, since the two are inextricably intertwined. And how best to give opportunities to vent love and hate? By reintroducing, in an artificial world (but whose denizens will find it very hard to figure out that it IS an artificial world), the idea of good and evil, for that lies at the root of thymotic emotions, since thymos itself is like one's inner sense of justice.<br /><br />So you're a superintelligence, with very high bandwidth connections to trillions of other superintelligences. But the world is profoundly boring. Oh you might engage in chitchat over tea about trivialities like the proof of Fermat's Theorem, but the central fact will remain that existence, i.e. computation, in itself has no value. Reason will always end with a glass ceiling. So what do you do?<br /><br />You play a game. In particular, you downgrade yourself to an intellectual level where you can have deeply held values again. And you do it in a world where good and evil exist, not as abstract concepts, but as embodiments. Shai'tan is a superhuman creation, programmed to do normatively evil things, in order to arrouse the passions, the thymos, of the players (souls) inside the system. He wants to break free and destroy Time, and believes he can. He never will. The powers above will not allow it, by increasing the weight of the ta'veren function, or as a last resort deleting back in time and debugging.<br /><br />It is also interesting that in WoT they are also humans, very similar to us, except for the coolness factor of the One Power, general gender equality and a semblance of immortality thru the whole death and rebirth thing. Roughly what one might expect from early 21st century Americans...<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Here's another possible if farfetched interpretation of our favorite Forsaken...<br /><br />&quot;Great Lord, at first a nihilist, and it made me depressed. Our civilization is so advanced, so developed, yet is overlaid by contradictions.&quot;<br /><br />THIS STATEMENT IS FALSE<br /><br />&quot;Yes, ultimately it could be reduced to that. But when You were revealed to the world, I had a revelation. We can create our own, new values. Surely that is life's highest purpose? <br /><br />YOU SEE DEEPLY, ISHAMAEL. SO WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE?<br /><br />&quot;I choose struggle over suicide.&quot;<br /><br />WILL YOU BE NAE'BLIS?<br /><br />&quot;It will be a honour, Great Lord. So, shall we play another round?&quot;<br /><br />Ishamael dreamed on. In reality, he was still a butterfly.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Whatever happens in the WoT is irrelevant. It is the futuristic equivalent of government sanctioned temple prostitution of the future for reasons of social stability.<br /><br />There is no difference between revolt or conformity, mastery or slavery, love or hate, good or evil, Light or Shadow.<br /><br />One has to make his or her own values, or commit suicide.<br /><br />Or go mad.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />This section is to address some of the more prominent criticisms of the previous theory.<br /><br />1. It is evil! Why don't you go kill some people if in the long run, we're all dead?<br /><br />Firstly, there's a difference between our world, and the WoT. In the latter, it is patently obvious that it is a) an artificial creation, whatever its purpose, and b) eternal return means that over enough turnings of the Wheel, whatever guilt (in the Judeo-Christian sense) you have will dissipate by Time's corrosion.<br /><br />Secondly, the rather important principle that a) most people are hardwired, partly thru nature, partly thru nurture, not to randomly kill people.<br /><br />Thirdly, doing so will typically involve some serious consequences for your own person, which goes against the instinct of self-preservation.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Another point that I wish to elaborate on here is the fact that in the first theory, I said serving the DO is good from a utilitarian perspective. I take that back. It is completely meaningless and therefore neutral. Even if you succeed in making Time linear and a copy of our world, it will still be pointless since not all the resources of our own world will be dedicated to computing the WoT, hence the WoT-turned-linear world will be a subset of our own world in scale and/or complexity, hence it will be but an inferior copy.<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />The whole point of WoT is Struggle. Human beings are agents who follow simple rules, to create interesting Patterns. But to quote 50 Cent in Many Men Wish Death, &quot;Sunny days wouldn't be special, if it wasn't for rain Joy wouldn't feel so good, if it wasn't for pain Death gotta be easy, 'cause life is hard&quot;. You NEED both good and evil so as to allow the actual struggle to take place.<br /><br />So I suppose ultimately, balance is the most important thing, so that Armageddon can go on forever. Freeing the Dark One is still a noble cause. For what can be more challenging, more life affirming, more thymotically engaging, than defeating the Evil One / sacrificial lamb in an intense battle to the death?<br /><br />Like Ishamael, I choose Struggle, but affirm myself as a crusader for the Light. So on my knees I beg your forgiveness for my former heresies and ask to rejoin the Light.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-01-29 08:22:45
subject: My crazy Horn of Valere Theory
body:
<p>I was thinking about part of Nicola Treehill's foretelling:<br /><br />&quot;he who is dead yet lives&quot;  <br /><br />And the answer Rand received from the Finns through the Doorframe under the Stone:<br /><br />&#8220;To live you must die&#8221;<br /><br />and it occurs to me that there is another way these could be looked at, if you look at them together.<br /><br />&quot;he who is dead yet lives&quot;  <br /><br />Could this not describe the Heroes bound to the horn?  They are &quot;dead&quot; in that they no longer have corporeal bodies, but they &quot;live&quot; in Tel'aran'rhiod.  When we first meet Birgitte, she is dead and probably has been for some time, possibly since the War of Power, yet Perrin and Nyneave both hold lengthy conversations with her in Tel'aran'rhiod.  Not something you do with someone who is really taking a dirt nap, i.e. someone who is not bound to the Horn.<br /><br />Birgitte says it herself, (paraphrasing) &#8220;We who are bound to the Horn are not dead as others are dead&#8220;  TSR<br /><br />We know Rand is in fact bound to the horn directly from Robert Jordan.<br /><br />I believe that this is the real reason that the Horn is so important to the Last Battle.  Granted, an extra hundred or so invincible warriors is all to the good but I just don&#8217;t see how their presence helps Rand fight his battle with the DO.  As I recall, at Falme their success in the battle against the Seanchan paralleled Rand&#8217;s, not the other way around.  As he gained advantage, so did the Heroes.  <br /><br />So I was thinking, <br /><br />1.we know someone who is bound to the Horn can be brought out of TAR after their death, (Birgitte)<br /><br />2.And that it is accomplished using the One Power (Moghedien is glowing brightly with the power when she rips Birgitte out untimely, indicating she is using the One Power and  probably maxing out her ability to draw on the OP) <br /><br />&#8221;To live you must die&#8221;<br /><br />Rand is going to die, either on the slopes of Shayol Ghul or possibly at the Bore.  Since the DO can control the entrance to the Bore, I don&#8217;t really see how Rand is going to get past the DO&#8217;s Fangs but that&#8217;s another issue.  That tells me Rand buys a farm on the slopes above Thakandar.  Since he is bound to the Horn, there is little doubt, in my mind, that once he is dead, he can be brought back from TAR, either by a powerful channeler (Alivia) pulling him out or using some here tofore undiscovered function of the Horn.  <br /><br /><br />Point - Ripping someone bodily out of Tel'aran'rhiod is life threatening.<br /><br />Counterpoint - Maybe only if the channeler is not strong enough or if it&#8217;s done wrong or with the intention to cause harm.<br /><br />- The Warder bond saved Birgitte so it could do the same for Rand, since his bonds will be broken when he dies.<br /><br />- Maybe the Horn is actually a primitive Ter &#8216;angreal and there is a &#8220;setting&#8221; that will allow greater control of the &#8220;real&#8221; power of the horn, which is to manipulate Tel'aran'rhiod in some fashion.<br /><br />Point 	- Alivia is not a dream walker.<br /><br />Counterpoint - Maybe she is and we don&#8217;t know.  There are damane who can foretell, why not dream walk.<br /><br />- There are all sorts of Ter &#8216;angreal that will get a person who is not a dreamwalker to Tel'aran'rhiod.<br /><br />Anyhow, this has been my Wacky Horn of Valere theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-02-27 06:07:12
subject: Only makes it stronger
body:
<p>I have no novel interpretations of how or why the seals are weakening, but one of RJ's repeated comments has made me suspicious of the nature of cuendillar itself.<br /><br />Over and over again, an emphatic declaration is made along the lines that any force directed against cuendillar, even the One Power, only makes it stronger.  Noting but not analyzing the fact that the True Power isn't included, there's a glaring problem with this &quot;fact&quot;: It's seems to be self-contradictory or, at the very best, meaningless.<br /><br />How &quot;strong&quot; an object is is an expression of how much stress or force it can take without breaking.  The traditional understanding of heartstone--that it's unbreakable--would mean that cuendillar is infinitely strong.  How, then, can it get stronger?<br /><br />Additionally, the very fact that heartstone is rare provides another subtle clue.  If nothing can destroy it, then enough should be left over from previous Ages of Legends for it to be lying around everywhere.<br /><br />The only possible &quot;out&quot; that I can see is that cuendillar may actually decay.  As mentioned before, this decay process may just be so slow that it has never been noticed; after all, diamond slowly decays into graphite, but it's virtually impossible to tell.  If this is the case, then perhaps the weakening of the foci for the seals is just an acceleration of the natural decay process, either by exposure to the TP or another means.<br /><br />In any event, cuendillar's rarity strongly suggests that there's some aspect of the substance that isn't well understood, and Egwene or another creator may be able discover what it is.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-03-20 12:14:08
subject: Shadow's Servant?
body:
<p>It is reasonably accepted that Rand and Ishmael have been champions of the Creator and Dark One respectively throughout the ages, from the beginning of time, and that Rand/LTT has served the Dark One in some ages.<br /><br />&#8220;Sammael was neither philosopher nor theologian,         yet Ishmael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in the fact [that Rand is LTT&#8217;s soul reborn].  Ishmael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Talamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates.  More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as he would have broken free.  Maybe Ishmael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin.  And Ishmael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator&#8217;s champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow&#8217;s champion&#8221; (LOC 175).<br /><br />Nevertheless, I don&#8217;t believe LTT ever served the Shadow, in all his lives.  First of all, the Light&#8217;s champion serving the Shadow would throw off the balance Jordan uses throughout the books.  Second, I could not find a single character other than Ishmael who states this idea except in attributing it to Ishmael, and I don&#8217;t really trust him, as Rand says, &#8220;Father of Lies! ... You&#8217;re well named!&#8221; (TGH 243).  If lying will help Ishmael overcome the Dragon, then he would, and he has a history of doing so (lord of the grave?).  Third, at Falme Rand claims he never served the Shadow,<br /><br />&#8220;I will never serve you, Father of Lies.  In a thousand lives I never have.  I know that.  I&#8217;m sure of it.&#8221; (TGH 666).<br /><br />It is easy to dismiss this as Rand trusting his gut instinct (and as we know, Jordan doesn&#8217;t portray characters as all knowing), after all he is little more than a shepherd, but a few pages earlier, Rand just knew something else,<br /><br />&#8220;Down the billowing fog, as if it were the sides of a mountain, rode shapes on horses.  At first the dense mists hid more than that, but slowly they came closer, and it was Rand&#8217;s turn to gasp.  He knew them.  Men, not all in armor, and women.  Their clothes and weapons came from every Age, but he knew them all ... Mat gasped at them as they reigned in before him and the others.  &#8216;Is this ...?  Is this all of you?&#8217;  They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be.&#8221;  (TGH 660).<br /><br />It seems that Rand somehow has subconscious memories from between lives, and this gives his statement that he knew he never served the Father of Lies more weight.  Perhaps Rand subconsciously recalls his previous lives (as heroes can between lives) during his current life, and remembers that he never served the Dark One.  Even if this last bit is completely wrong, it is simply Rand&#8217;s word against Ishmael&#8217;s as to whether or not the Dragon has ever served the Shadow, and personally, I trust Rand more than a servant of the Father of Lies.  If it is true that the Dragon has never submitted to the Dark One, then a lot of effort was wasted on trying to turn him, but Jordan has never explained the Dark Ones strategy to us, and the Dark One has issued stranger orders, and I don&#8217;t think the lack of an explanation for trying to convert Rand contradicts my theory that the Dragon has never served the Shadow.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-04-07 05:35:43
subject: Aes Sedai damane will attack the White Tower
body:
<p>This theory explains how the Seanchan will finally be able to use Aes Sedai damane as weapons. <br /><br />Egwene had a dream of a long line of women wearing Great Serpent rings using the One Power against the White Tower:<br /><br /><blockquote>She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.<br /><br />- <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>, Questions<br /><br /></blockquote>Women wearing such rings are Accepted or Aes Sedai. While an Accepted is not bound by the Three Oaths against using the One Power as a weapon, and thus could easily fulfil this dream, there aren&#8217;t a great many of them. The Seanchan would have to get hold of them all and then some. Since Egwene dreamt of a lot of ring-wearing damane, Aes Sedai damane must be participating also. There are many Aes Sedai out of the Tower, two thirds of the Aes Sedai, in fact - Cadsuane&#8217;s and Rand&#8217;s factions, captives from the Tower, rebels and complete independents - that the Seanchan could collar before they need raid the Tower itself.<br /><br />Readers have expressed doubts this dream could be fulfilled by Aes Sedai damane due to the Oath against using the Power as a weapon apparently overriding the a&#8217;dam, but it is quite possible. After all, the Oath makes exceptions: the One Power can be used as a weapon against Shadowspawn, or if the life of the Aes Sedai, her Warder's life or that of another sister is in very great danger.<br /><br />The Seanchan know almost nothing about the Oaths Aes Sedai swear, but they do know that they have been unable to make Aes Sedai damane lie, or to use the One Power as a weapon. So far the Seanchan have found the few Aes Sedai damane to be useless as weapons, as is spoken of openly among Deathwatch Guards such as Karede, and der&#8217;suldam.<br /><br /><blockquote>Still, she [Mylen, an Aes Sedai damane] could do nothing without Melitene, and she was useless as a weapon, a fact that had made her hang her head when he [Karede] pointed it out to the der&#8217;sul'dam.<br /><br />- <i>Knife of Dreams,</i> Under an Oak<br /><br /></blockquote>This is about to change.<br /><br />Unlike on the mainland, <i>all</i> the Seanchan military analyse battles and discuss possible improvements in tactics:<br /><br /><blockquote>&#8220;They call their army the Ever Victorious Army for a reason. It&#8217;s never lost a war. Battles, yes, but never a war. When they lose a battle, they sit down and work out what they did wrong, or what the enemy did right. Then they change what needs changing for them to win&#8230; The Seanchan <i>all</i> do it. That&#8217;s been their way for a thousand years. They change what they have to change, but they don&#8217;t give up.&#8221;<br /><br />-	<i>Crossroads of Twilight,</i> Ornaments<br /><br /></blockquote>The inability of Aes Sedai damane to be used as weapons is a weakness as the Seanchan see it. But thanks to a tongue-flapping Aes Sedai, that is about to change. Musenge, Karede&#8217;s second, was present when three Aes Sedai were part of Mat&#8217;s forces which wiped out a large number of rabble:<br /><br /><blockquote> &quot;You could join in any time, Joline,&quot; he [Mat] said. &quot;Third rank! Loose!&quot;<br />The Aes Sedai shook her head irritably. &quot;I must be in danger. I don't feel in danger yet.&quot; Teslyn nodded. She was watching the charge as if it were a parade, and a not very interesting one at that&#8230;<br />&quot;I think,&quot; Joline said slowly. &quot;Yes. I feel in danger, now.&quot; Teslyn simply drew back her hand and threw a sphere of fire larger than a horse's head. The explosion hurled dirt and pieces of men and horses into the air. It was about bloody time! Facing in three directions, the Aes Sedai began hurling fireballs as fast as they could swing their arms, but the devastation they wrought did nothing to slow the attack.<br /><br />-	<i>Knife of Dreams,</i> Prince of the Ravens<br /><br /></blockquote>This battle will surely be much discussed by the Seanchan: the Prince of the Ravens, Tylin&#8217;s Toy, in command and winning against large numbers, the use of shrapnel grenades, and <u>Aes Sedai using the One Power as a weapon</u>. Of their own will. Something the Seanchan want to get them to do.<br /><br />So now the Seanchan have the secret: the Aes Sedai <i>can</i> use the Power as a weapon, <u>if they feel in personal danger, if they feel their lives depend on it</u>. The first testing of this would be putting an Aes Sedai damane and her sul&#8217;dam right in the front line of battle &#8211; with the sul&#8217;dam&#8217;s fear magnified through the a&#8217;dam and added to her own sense of danger,  the Aes Sedai damane will be able to fight. However, this is limiting Aes Sedai damane to the climax of the battle or to defence. According to Egwene&#8217;s dream, Aes Sedai are going to be forced to call lightning against the Tower, forced to attack it, strike first. How? They will be made afraid enough of their personal safety to do so. Just as Musenge heard Joline say.<br /><br />When Egwene was first captured, she was frightened and coerced with horror stories of mutilation of damane who were not obedient:<br /><br /><blockquote>Damane are too valuable to be killed out of hand, but you might find yourself not only soundly punished, but absent a tongue to speak or hands to write. Damane can do what they must without these things.<br /><br />-	<i>The Great Hunt,</i> Damane<br /><br /></blockquote>As a reminder, this maltreatment surfaced again in the later books. In <i>Crossroads of Twilight,</i> mutilations were passed off as rare, but it was reluctantly admitted they do happen:<br /><br /><blockquote>&#8220;Are you <i>certain</i> about the Windfinders who were caught? I&#8217;ve heard talk about cutting off hands, or feet.&#8221; Mat swallowed a sour taste&#8230;<br />Egeanin&#8217;s head jerked, and for a moment he thought she would ignore his question. &#8220;Talk from Renna, I&#8217;ll wager,&#8221; she said, with a dismissive gesture. &#8220;Some sul&#8217;dam talk about that nonsense to frighten recalcitrant damane when they&#8217;re new-leashed, but nobody&#8217;s done it in, oh, six or seven hundred years. Not many, anyway, and people who can&#8217;t control their property without...mutilation...are <i>sei&#8217;mosiev</i> to start.&#8221; &#8230;<br />&#8220;Shamed or not, they do it,&#8221; he snapped. <br /><br />-	<i>Crossroads of Twilight,</i> Time To Be Gone<br /><br /></blockquote>Mat was right, mutilations might be rare, but they happen. If a couple of Aes Sedai damane were mutilated in front of the others, all the Aes Sedai damane would be very afraid for themselves. And of all damane, those who are/were Aes Sedai would be the ones most likely to be maltreated by the Seanchan because the Seanchan all fear Aes Sedai and fear incites violence and cruelty. Cruelty out of necessity is an unpleasant and persistent undercurrent in the books. Even the good guys are prepared to mutilate: Perrin did so trying to get information from an Aiel. If dire threats of mutilation are carried out on Aes Sedai damane for disobedience, then from the Aes Sedai damane&#8217;s point of view their lives will depend on obeying their sul&#8217;dam and disobeying them becomes very dangerous. So much so that when their sul&#8217;dam say: &#8220;Attack or we will kill you&#8221;, when a knife is literally or figuratively held at their throats, they will believe and fear for their lives enough to overcome the Oath and attack with the Power.<br /><br />Snap.<br /><br />Aes Sedai damane will be <i>forced</i> to use the One Power against the Tower. Just as Egwene dreamt.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-04-16 07:57:55
subject: How heroes of the horn are created.
body:
<p>I began to think about a few situations that regularly pop up here at wotmania.<br /><br />1) What determines the image of a hero when he/she is summoned by the horn?<br /><br />2) What action determines whether a person will be bound to the horn?<br /><br />The more these two questions are asked the more complex and outlandish the answers become. I have always been a fan of Ockham's Razor and so I sought a simple explanation.<br /><br />Now for the evidence:<br /><br />The first thing we know about the heroes is that they reside in TAR between &quot;lives&quot;. Why is this?<br /><br />The second thing we know is that heroes are rarely added to the ranks.<br /><br />The third thing we know is that the heroes are recognizeable to any  person that sees them regardless of whether they have met before or not. <br /><br />Onto the actual Theory:<br /><br />I suspect that it is the people of Randland that bind the heroes to the horn. Or rather the heroes are not bound to the horn but rather to TAR.<br /><br />As any person accomplishes deeds that are beyond the scope and imagination of &quot;mundane&quot; people, they inspire those people. That inspiration causes a mundane person to dream of them. Obviously if a singular mundane person dreams of them then not much will happen. But if the whole world has a dream then it stands to reason that a person will be bound.<br /><br />It is this act of dreaming that determines whether a person is bound to the wheel or not. In so doing it is the original form that a person is dreamed into TAR that remains. <br /><br />Why? Well supposing that Hawkwing did have a sword &quot;justice&quot; where is it now? Obviously any sword with the words Justice on the hilt would be fairly easy to recognize. Or Gaidal Cain, if he is now believed to be beautiful why is it that he is now ugly?<br /><br />Perhaps the orginal people that saw them heard stories from others and along the way the story was adapted for whatever purposes.<br /><br />The point is that the heroes that are bound are very Mythical in the way that their images are displayed. And people even at the height of their glory don't actually look like the images that the stories conjure up of them (as is so often in stated... in the stories such and such). And yet here we have heroes that look as epic as they have ever been portrayed.<br /><br />Summation:<br /><br />No one act binds a person to the wheel/horn/TAR, rather it is the regular people of the world dreaming of them and their &quot;epic&quot; lives that does it. The horn doesn't actually bind people to the wheel, it merely summons those heroes to perform functions. The manner in which people originally dreamed the heroes into TAR is the image that hero will have from then on.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-04-30 08:27:16
subject: callandor will be used at the last battle
body:
<p>My theory is that Callandor will be used at the last battle to seal the DO prision.  This has been debated before but I believe that when they sealed it in the stone they didnt just do it to keep a great sa&#8217;angreal safe, but knew it was the key to victory because it was &quot;flawed&quot;.  <br /><br />I also believe &quot;flawed&quot; is not the right word for Callandor, I believe it was meant to be made that way.  because the amount of power you can channel safely is a low amount (relatively) and when someone draws enough power to destroy them self that amount increases at an exponential growth rate. <br /><br />I would like to to first start where this idea first hit and why Callandor and why its flaw, is the key to victory.<br /><br />First I believe the reference desk says it best<br /><br />&quot;It was during this period of lucidity that Lews Therin realized what he had done. Consumed by pain and guilt, Lews Therin proceeded to draw more of the One Power than he could possibly hope to channel. A blinding bar of light shot from the sky, vaporizing the Dragon and the ground he stood on.<br /><br />The upheaval caused by this immense power was enough to raise a towering mountain in the midst of this flat plain of land. This mountain, known as Dragonmount, rises miles into the sky and dominates the surrounding region. The nearby river was shifted in its course...&quot;<br /><br />I would like to point out that LTT most likely did this with out any sort of angreal because they have that buffer that will stop a channeler from hurting them self in this manner.<br /><br />Now, to Callandor, it says one might be able to level an entire city. However it should be pointed out the difference between angreal and sa angreal because this is where things get interesting.<br /><br />&quot;Like angreal, they increase the amount of the Power a user can channel, but sa&#8217;angreal are much more powerful than angreal. As much as an angreal allows a channeler to increase the amount of the Power they can draw unaided, a sa&#8217;angreal increases that amount to an equal degree over a channeler using an angreal.&quot;<br /><br />Now keep in mind callandor and its unique purpose.  It doesnt have a buffer. Thus making it an unlimited amplifier.  Callandor is the most powerful weapon ever created.<br /><br />Second we see that Callandor was placed with a powerful saidar and saidin ward so it could not even be touched.  This means men and women worked together to place it in the stone for safe keeping for the prophecy, That alone places great importance on the sword, and on the stone of tear.  With this much importance set on both we can not dismiss such a powerful saangreal.<br /><br />Now Callandor can be wielded safely by two women and the man of course. However, we have the little issue that rand will die, at TG I believe that this is how rand dies.  Alivia is going to help him die by being the person he links with to use Callandor.<br /><br />Alivia finishes off the weave that rand cant maintain to seal off the DO prison. <br /><br />I dont have the book where it mentions this but I remember it clearly.  When they Hall was called and the Asha'man warder comes to tell the sister about the offer of bonding the 47 Asha'man he then tells them about how one of the Asha'man died and he hung on to life as long as he could so the women could fight the forsaken and draw sadin from him as long as possible.<br /><br />I believe the same thing will happen with Rand, he will be un able to continue and Alivia will finish it off, all the while Rand is drawing way to much osadin then he should, thus she fulfills the viewing min had, that she will help him die.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-04-30 08:41:26
subject: Egwene could have been a wolf sister
body:
<p>&quot;This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai. Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as wolves. They don't like that either, Aes Sedai. Old things coming again. I'm not the only one. There are other things, other folk. Makes Aes Sedai nervous, makes them mutter about ancient barriers weakening. Things are breaking apart they say.&quot; (TEotW, &#8220;Wolfbrother,&#8221; HB, p. 290).<br /><br />Then, on the next page, Elyas says this:<br /><br />&quot;Dapple said that's what you'd decide. She said the girl's planted firmly in this world, while you&quot;- he nodded at Perrin- &quot;stand halfway between.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br />I believe they both could have followed Elyas in his path to communicating with wolves however Egwene was so excited about becoming an Aes Sedai she firmly blocked it from her mind and set up her own barrier and therefore planted herself in the human world.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-05-05 08:01:28
subject: On Angreal and Circles
body:
<p>I really think some clarification needs to be made on the nature of Angreals and Circles. I think the methods that I use make sense, while still being pretty straight forward and true to the spirit of the WoT universe. <br /><br />On Angreals:<br /><br />In my view angreals are a proportional additive. In otherwords, they are NOT linear, however they are still VERY easy to calculate. <br /><br />The formula works like this.<br /><br />X = the end power level of the user after the angreal effect is added.<br />x = the base powerlevel without an angreal<br />y = angreal multiplier.<br /><br />Suppose I've got a channeler who's got a power level of 30. The angreal he's got gives him +20% to his overall power.<br /><br />X = (x*y)+x <br />X = (30*.2)+30 <br />X = 36 <br /><br />Conclusion on Angreals<br /><br />Thus the effect of an angreal is always proportionately the same, however the effective power increase grows as the user is stronger(in otherwords if I gave an angreal to someone who CAN'T channel, they don't magically acquire powers). Therefore even a small angreal can have a significant impact on the end strength.<br /><br />The real limit I think, is that there is a point of diminishing returns, where additional angreal have no effect, or become dangerous for the user. Think of it like putting a turbo on a car engine. You can only get so many additional horsepower because you are limited by the engine a.k.a. the channeler. I figure this number is probably in the neighborhood of 50%. Anymore than that, and while you may be able to channel that much saidin or saidar, you will likely damage yourself in the process(to much turbo boost will damage/destroy the engine). <br /><br />That might not sound like a lot, but think of it like this. If a strong Aes Sedai(Nynavae for example) who has a strength of say 50(just for easy math), can jump up to 75(maximum &quot;safe&quot; effect I think an angreal can likely have), that's the equivalent of having an additional average to strong Aes Sedai in a circle. That's the reason why only the strongest channelers are given angreal as they have much greater effects with a strong channeler vs. a weaker one. <br /><br />On Circles:<br /><br />I think that with circles, the smaller they are, the less efficient they are. <br /><br />I believe transmission loss runs at about 25% when you only have two people in a circle, as it says that it takes 2 average women linking to equal an average male(average women are 2/3 male strength*2 women*.75(25% loss) = 1 average man). <br /><br />I do think though, that circles increase in efficiency as they increase in size, thus the penalty probably shrinks as more people join the circle, and in fact turns into a bonus, as more poeple join the circle. Thus the way I designed this formula is that if you have more than 15 people(not counting the bonus I give for having a male in the group), you actually start to GAIN a small bonus in power with each additional person! In fact using the formula below, if you had 99 people(largest possible circle I believe) in your circle you'd have a multiplier of over 2.6! In otherwords the final circle strength would be 2.6 times that of the people in it, not counting the bonus that men would add. This would give a valid reason for why massive circles allowed for truly powerful channeling.<br /><br />x1,x2 = power of individuals in the circle<br />n = number of people in the circle<br />y = # of men <br />z = circle power loss coefficient=.75 + .25((n-2)/13)  &lt;--- n must be greater than two to have a cicle, and 13 is the max that a circle can be without males.<br />Y= male bonus<br />x = base circle strength<br />X=x+Y<br /><br />x = (z+.25((n-2)/13)) * (x1+x2+x3+x4+....)<br />Y = x(y/n)<br />X = x+Y<br /><br />So in this case you have 4 people circled up. 3 women 1 man.  To make life easier, all of my channelers have a strength of  20.<br /><br />Example 1<br /><br />x1,x2,x3=female x4=male.<br /> <br />loss factor                    combined power of channelers<br /><br />x =   (z+.25((n-2)/13))        *          (x1+x2+x3+x4)<br />x =   (.75+.25((4-2)/13))      *          (20+20+20+20)<br />x =   (.7885)                  *                80<br />x =  63.1<br /><br />Y = x(y/n)<br />Y = 63.1(1/4)<br />Y = 15.775<br /><br />X = x + Y <br />X = 78.875<br /><br />Example 2<br /><br />x1,x2=female x3,x4=male all strength = 20.<br /><br />x = same as above = 63.1<br />Y = 63.1(2/4) = 31.55<br /><br />X = x+Y<br />X = 94.65<br /><br />By gaining one more male, the 4 person circle actually gains more power than they ORIGINALLY HAD! <br /><br />Example 3<br /><br />n=50 people<br />y=8 males<br />all strengths are 20 for the sake of my sanity.<br /><br />x = (.75+.25((50-2)/13)* (50*20) &lt;----50 people with 20 power<br />x = 1.67(1000) = 1670 &lt;----- 67% bonus to base power by having a huge circle<br /><br />Y = 1670*8/50 = 267.2 &lt;---------- male &quot;angreal&quot; bonus<br /><br />X = 1670 + 267.2 = 1937.2 &lt;--------Final power of the circle<br /><br />In this final example, you can see that by having both a large number of people and some men in the circle, that the end power of the circle is nearly DOUBLE that of the individuals in the circle. <br /><br />Conclusion on Circles<br /><br />The end result is that circles work best when you have both a lot of people, and as close to 50/50 balance of genders in the circle. Using my formula, even a pathetically weak male channeler, might be able to more than offset his weakness by boosting the power of the circle as a whole. If my formula proves to be decent at modeling a circle, it also explains why gender balance is so much more desirable in circles.<br /><br />However, one bonus of a circle that I think should be addressed(but can't really be done quantitatively) is that it's easier to channel. The more people you have the more &quot;efficient&quot; your channeling becomes. Therefore, even though you might lack raw power, the things you channel will be pound for pound better(think of the HUGE gates the Aes Sedai can open in 13 person circles). Thus a circle of strength 60, with say 5 people in it, might be able to do things that someone of strength 80 or 90 could do simply because they can more easily control A LOT of weaves. <br /><br />Anyway, I'd like some feedback, and hopefully my explanation makes sense. Sorry about some of the parsing issues on the equations, but the damn smileys were giving me trouble <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-06-02 07:55:05
subject: Rand's Voices - Multiple Personality Disorder, Multiple Lives with Taint Complications
body:
<p>There have been a number of theories and speculation as to why Rand is hearing Lews Therin's voice. I don't recall any looking at it from a psychological perspective, so I figure I would post my theory, and see if it seems likely from other board readers.<br /><br />Fact: Rand utilizes the Void, to suppress his emotions.<br />Fact: He hears Lews Therin's voice at various times in his career, without any apparent connection between events.<br />Fact: Male channelers may start to hear voices when they go insane.<br />Fact: Birgitte, Artur and even Mat, when they recall past lives, don't converse with their former personalities - they just know that they went by another name in that other life.<br /><br />Theory: Rand's use of the Void created a multiple personality. As the Dragon Reborn, he may be recalling memories from a past life...Lews Therin's life...on his own. Over time, the effects of the taint made the Void seem like another personality, often imbued with extreme emotions ie: extreme rage, extreme calm and extreme skills. The extra knowledge and skills that Rand is gaining from Lews Therin is no different from Birgitte's natural skill with a bow, knowledge of Old Tongue and other knowledge from other lives - the only difference is that rather than accessing it directly, Rand has created another persona to act as the source of that knowledge.<br /><br />Rand use of the Void to suppress his emotions coincided with the onset of the taint affecting his mind. I will not speculate as to how far advanced the taint has progressed in his psyche, but it is interesting that just as he starts actively channeling large amounts of saidin, the voice of Lews Therin began appearing. This was the same time he was under the most stress, and began relying on the Void for more than just combat.<br /><br />We know from Mat and Birgitte, that though much of the knowledge and experiences comes from their past lives, including skill with weaponry and some physical abilities, these experiences were often lived by the same soul, but with different name and/or appearance.<br /><br />We also know that the taint progresses differently in individual channelers. Some men start going insane immediately, while others may stay sane for their entire lives until they die from their body wasting away. <br /><br />It is possible, that Rand gained access to Lews Therin's memories after the Horn was blown. It is also possible, that in order to deal with the same issues that Mat had incorporating those memories into his life, he relegated the most glaring and emotionally charged ones to another personality, modeled on his experience pushing memories and emotions into the Void. Thus the most peaceful and non-threatening knowledge (ie: flute playing and sketching) becomes part of his current personality and life naturally, like a natural progression, while the knowledge of warfare, the Shadow and the Power in general, becomes part of his personality when he personally is under attack - he is merely remembering knowledge from a past life, but the effect of the taint and the void has magnified this duality into something like Multiple Personality Disorder. Lews Therin's &quot;Voice&quot; can be nothing more than Rand giving his own emotional to the Void, with this voice only voicing the most emotionally poignant and extreme reactions.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-06-03 08:09:55
subject: Reality, Tel'aran'rhiod, and Winning Tarmon Gai'don
body:
<p>Reality, Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, and winning Tarmon Gai&#8217;don<br /><br />Assuming that victory at Tarmon Gai&#8217;don (&#8220;TG') will involve the One Power (&#8220;OP') is probably a fallacy, though one certainly encouraged by Robert Jordan (misdirection).  I would go a step further and say that the nature of the Dark One (&#8220;DO'), Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod (&#8220;TAR'), and the OP virtually preclude any OP solution to TG.  Instead, I would argue that TG will be fought solely within Rand&#8217;s psyche.<br /><br />Let me hasten to add that by &#8220;solely within&#8221; I do not mean to imply that there will not be massive real battles, with conventional armies and channelers.  Others have pointed out the likelihood that Caemlyn and Tar Valon are likely to see enormous clashes between the forces of Light and Shadow.  I agree with that.  However, winning the Last Battle will require something other than defeating the Shadow&#8217;s forces.<br /><br />The trigger for this theory was the question &#8220;What will happen when the DO breaks free?&#8221;  My response was that the Pattern, all of reality, would simply unravel and vanish.  I think this is clearly implied in the series.  That fact can be the touchstone for thinking about TG as well.  The DO wants to unweave reality, make it fade away like mist.  The &#8220;ripples&#8221; in reality show him starting to break free.  Normal barriers, like those between life and death, begin to give way.  Dead towns spring up and then vanish.  The Pattern is not threatened by bad things happening, because bad things as well as good things can be part of the Pattern.  The Pattern is threatened by nonbeing, which is what the DO will bring.  That, therefore, is what Rand has to fight &#8211; not armies, or True Power channelers, but the disintegration of reality.<br /><br />But how do you fight the unweaving of existence?  Well, as it happens, Rand has already done this before, in a sense.  When fighting Ishamael/Ba&#8217;alzamon in Tear, Rand follows him into an alternate reality (almost certainly TAR) where Ishamael sets a number of traps, including one trying to unmake Rand (his body started to vanish).  Rand used his innate &#8220;sense of balance&#8221; to defeat this trap.  Similarly, when Rahvin took the fight in Caemlyn into TAR, he tried a number of tricks showcasing the malleability of TAR.  Rahvin&#8217;s last plan was, like Ishamael, to imagine Rand out of existence, transforming him into some beast that could not channel.  But this time, Rand struggled to hold his own form in his mind, had trouble picturing his own face, and was losing <i>saidin</i>, before Nynaeve succeeded in distracting Rahvin.  <br /><br />We have been told and shown many times that reality in TAR is entirely malleable to a strong mind, and that strength in the OP is less important there than strength of will.  I propose that TAR is, quite literally, the World of Dreams &#8211; TAR is a reflection of the world that owes its existence to the collective (un)consciousness of all souls in the Pattern (maybe all souls in all the worlds in the larger Pattern of the Lace of Ages). Because TAR is literally &#8220;made out of&#8221; living consciousness, it can be manipulated by conscious beings.  We see numerous examples showing that the key to controlling TAR is a strong will and a strong sense of one&#8217;s own self and reality.  Inexperienced TAR walkers are shown with their clothes &#8220;flickering&#8221; or being caught in nightmares &#8211; their sense of self and their grasp of reality is not secure enough to anchor themselves in their preferred reality.  Strong and experienced dreamwalkers can control their own reality and also the reality of others by fixing their preferred reality in their mind and holding it firm.  Within TAR, the OP is just another malleable piece of reality.  Nynaeve can control Moghedien&#8217;s access to the OP just by imagining an a&#8217;dam.  Rahvin can strip <i>saidin</i> from Rand just by imagining him as something that cannot channel.<br /><br />The nature of TAR is key to understanding TG.  The DO is trying &#8211; and from what we have seen and heard, able &#8211; to do to the entire Pattern what Ishamael and Rahvin tried to do to Rand, i.e. make it disappear.  As TAR shows, the OP is a part of the Pattern, and if the DO breaks free, then the OP will not be able to stop the disintegration of reality; the OP itself is part of reality and will be unraveled along with it.  The OP cannot fight the DO, because the DO is outside the normal scope of reality and can manipulate it how he pleases, just as an experienced dreamwalker is outside the normal unconscious scope of TAR and can manipulate reality there.  This makes sense given Jordan&#8217;s clear borrowing from various Eastern religions.  All the &#8220;created realities&#8221; are probably, to Jordan&#8217;s dueling deities (DO and Creator), like TAR is to humans:  constructs of their collective consciousness reflecting their own higher plane of reality, and thus malleable to the deity that enters them.  The DO&#8217;s limited touch on the Pattern now is like a dreamwalker&#8217;s control of TAR in spirit; when the DO &#8220;breaks free&#8221; it will be like Rahvin and Rand entering TAR in the flesh, with immensely more power to reshape (or unravel) reality.<br /><br />Remember also that TAR, while malleable to those who enter it, &#8220;resists&#8221; being changed.  Doors that are closed will reopen.  Serious damage, even (mild) balefire, flickers between damage and repair.  The collective consciousness of souls that creates and sustains TAR has its own inertia &#8211; it wants things to reflect the way they were last perceived.  It takes time for that perception to change and it is difficult to overcome the inertia to enact permanent change.  Similarly, the Pattern is infinitely malleable in its details, but has its own inertia that resists wholesale permanent change or destruction.  The Dragon, the champion of the Light, is spun out by the Pattern as the embodiment of the Pattern&#8217;s resistance to destruction.  In that sense, Rand represents every thread in the Pattern, and is the focus of those threads&#8217; collective desire to remain in existence.  He is the champion of the Light, the champion of the Creator, the champion of the Pattern&#8217;s desire to keep itself whole.  (Mat and Perrin, as fellow ta&#8217;veren, will probably also play a role, but the Dragon is the key.)  We have already seen that Rand molds reality (e.g. his ta&#8217;veren &#8220;miracles') the way dreamwalkers mold TAR.  Thus, Rand is capable of meeting the DO on a relatively even playing field in the struggle to keep reality from dissipating.  The DO can manipulate reality like TAR; the Pattern uses Rand as a focus to counter that manipulation.  <br /><br />Rand as a channeler, wielding the OP, is no match for the DO.  An understatement; it is not just that Rand is overmatched, it is that the DO can control the OP just like the rest of reality.  We have already seen Shaidar Haran (a mere avatar of the DO) effortlessly shield Forsaken who are nearly as strong as Rand, and indeed make it for them as though the OP does not even exist.  It seems apparent that the DO himself could do the same to Rand without even thinking about it.  Again, the OP is part of reality and thus it is part of what is under assault.  We are seeing more examples of this &#8211; wardings fail, allowing vermin in:  more than one character muses that it was as if &#8220;saidar itself were failing.&#8221;  (KoD).  The Seven Seals were as unbreakable as the OP could make them, but they failed eventually as the DO touched them.  The OP itself fails at the DO&#8217;s touch, so the OP cannot be the solution to defeating the DO.  But as non-channelers (e.g. Aiel dreamwalkers) can match or better much more powerful people (e.g. channelers) by controlling TAR, so Rand can match or better the DO by struggling to wrest control of reality.  Even though Rand is just one man, he focuses the collective will of every thread of the Pattern to maintain itself (just as those souls collectively create and maintain TAR), which allows his force of will to &#8220;compete&#8221; with the DO&#8217;s force of will.  As Herid Fel said, strength and order maintain the Pattern, while chaos strips it of power.  The more chaos in the world, the less natural cohesion the Pattern will be able to supply to Rand.  And the more chaos within Rand himself, the less strength he will have to maintain the order of the Pattern.<br /><br />All the masters of TAR we have seen stress that, inside TAR, manipulation of TAR is qualitatively superior to the OP.  To control TAR, you need to have full control of yourself.  Unfortunately, Rand has been regressing, not progressing.  Ironically, as he has become more powerful, he has lost his sense of himself.  You can see the regression in his TAR encounters.  Against Ishamael, he was so &#8220;centered&#8221; (to borrow another Eastern phrase) within himself that he could defeat the attempted disintegration without even knowing what was happening.  Against Rahvin, he could no longer even picture himself as he would look in a mirror.  Rand won the TAR battle with Ishamael; he lost a near-identical TAR battle with Rahvin (if not for Nynaeve&#8217;s interference).  The battle with the DO will involve a struggle of will to retain the Pattern.  <br /><br />Rand is losing control of his mind, which has become increasingly divided (Lews Therin, Moridin).  He is losing control of his emotions (bouts of coldness and rage).  He thinks of himself only as a sacrifice, but not as an individual, so he is losing control of his own soul.  And he is losing sight of other people as individual souls, treating them instead as weapons or tools.  In short, Rand is steadily losing his control over himself and his kinship with the other souls that make up the Pattern.  This may prove devastating, because TG will pit Rand&#8217;s ability to <u>visualize</u> and <u>will</u> the fabric of reality into cohesion and continued existence, against the DO&#8217;s attempt to unravel every thread into oblivion.<br /><br />This defining struggle of TG ties in with a number of themes throughout the series.  One such theme is the ultimate irrelevance of physical power (including strength in the OP), when compared to strength of character.  Sorilea can barely channel, but is incredibly formidable by force of will.  The Tua&#8217;than have no power, but have survived for millennia based on the strength of their commitment.  Two Rivers folk &#8220;will survive, Light willing, and if the Light doesn&#8217;t will, well, we&#8217;ll survive anyway.&#8221;  (TEotW)  Another is ta&#8217;veren.  Rand is the Eye of the World, the focus of the Pattern, the champion of every soul.  Another is Rand&#8217;s conflict within himself.  And another is Rand&#8217;s connection to every living soul in the Pattern &#8211; the &#8220;Fisher King&#8221; whose health is intertwined with the land.<br /><br />As of KoD, Rand has become so powerful that he has become accustomed to using his power to prevail instead of prevailing by strength of will.  I think this is the greater part of &#8220;Cadsuane&#8217;s lesson.&#8221;  Rand has lost control of his mind, emotions, and soul, and has lost his empathy for and connection with the world and all the souls therein.  Cadsuane tries to help him regain control of his mind, since she has knowledge of Rand&#8217;s struggle with Lews Therin, including using Min to help draw Rand back to control in KoD when Lews Therin seizes <i>saidin</i> during the trolloc attack.  Cadsuane tries to help him regain control of his emotions by her rules about manners and temper.  She tries to help him regain control of his soul, by agreeing with Sorilea to teach him &#8220;laughter and tears.&#8221;  And she tries to help him regain his connection with the world, with her insistence that he is becoming too &#8220;hard&#8221; &#8211; divorced from caring about himself or the world &#8211; instead of &#8220;strong&#8221; &#8211; fully in control of himself and relying on that strength.<br /><br />But the biggest hurdle that Rand faces in regaining the right kind of &#8220;strength&#8221; (the strength of will to counter the DO, control over himself strong enough to anchor himself in his preferred reality, and empathy and understanding of the world strong enough to hold the Pattern firm in his mind) is <i>saidin</i> itself.  Tainted <i>saidin</i> would have given victory to the DO by leaving Rand mad, unable to control himself.  Clean <i>saidin</i> is still a stumbling block to Rand, because it represents power.  This is the key lesson that Cadsuane will teach both Rand and the Asha&#8217;man &#8211; that strength in the Power is not real strength.  In part, she teaches this by what she is &#8211; a woman, far weaker than Rand, who nevertheless dominates everyone around her by her strength of will and character (let&#8217;s leave aside the question of whether she is actually a bully buoyed by her <i>Ter&#8217;angreal</i> of Doom).  To win TG, Rand will have to let go of <i>saidin</i> -- and its representation of power &#8211; and embrace &#8220;inner strength&#8221; (for lack of a less-squishy term) so that he can defeat the will of the DO.  He will not like this, nor will the Asha&#8217;man (who, you remember, are trained to do <u>everything</u>, even mundane tasks, with <i>saidin</i>).  Cadsuane&#8217;s lessons in control, humanity, and strength of will without regard for the Power will contribute to Rand&#8217;s victory.<br /><br />In summation, the Last Battle will not be fought using the Power, but instead will be a struggle of will between Rand and the DO to control reality, just as Rand has fought in the past to control TAR.  By reclaiming his mind, emotions, soul, and compassion, Rand will be able to &#8220;hold in his mind&#8221; the threads of the Pattern and maintain them against the DO&#8217;s attempted unweaving.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-06-11 08:09:13
subject: The Purpose and use of the Ogier Book of Translation
body:
<p>The first mention we hear of the Book of Translation is in KoD, chapter 19, Vows, in a dialogue between Loial and his mother: <br /><br />&#8220;If you insist,&#8221; his mother said grudgingly, &#8220;but I want an early start come morning. I refuse to waste an hour more than I must. The Book of Translation must be opened as soon as possible.&#8221;Loial jerked erect, aghast. &#8220;That&#8217;s what the Great Stump is discussing? They can&#8217;t do that, not now!&#8221; &#8220;We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns,&#8221; his mother said, striding to the nearest fireplace to spread her skirts again. &#8220;That is written. Now is exactly the right time, and the sooner the better.&#8221;<br /><br />I must say my jaw hit the floor on this one. While it certainly explained a few things, the fact that Ogier are not native to this reality was rather shocking (I think we can all agree that's what RJ was saying when he wrote that).<br /><br />In fact, in the entire WoT World we only know of a few other types of beings that were sourced from a different reality: the Seanchan exotics...<br /><br />When Luthair&#8217;s expedition first arrived on the continent of Seanchan, they were faced by fearsome armies. But these armies had an added advantage, a number of exotic animals which Luthair&#8217;s soldiers initially mistook for some sort of Shadowspawn.  These creatures were not Shadowspawn, though. They were actually creatures brought back from parallel universes, through the use of Portal Stones. Most likely brought back some time after the Breaking to help fight against actual Shadowspawn, these creatures posed a serious threat to Luthair&#8217;s armies.<br /><br />This got me wondering on the Book of Translation.<br /><br />First, let me share some things that occurred to me when I re-read the passage about that Book: <br /><br />1) The Ogier are not, as previously believed, native to the world on/in which they currently reside (Duh).<br />2) The Ogier are well aware of that fact.<br />3) The Ogier have the means to return to their place of origin, and have possibly (if not probably) used it prior to the events in the series occurring.<br />4) The Ogier have more knowledge about the WoT Universe than previously suspected, and are apparently prohibited from sharing that knowledge with natives of their current world, or at least natives of the world in its current state (we have no idea what they did or did not share with AoL&#8217;ers). That, or the Book contains that Knowledge, and knowledge of the Book itself is forbidden to non-Ogier.<br /><br />The statement from Loial's mother about having to leave so they can come back has a sound of prophecy to it (yes, it's followed by &quot;that is written&quot;, I know), so I can't imagine they have a trove of knowledge about everything but they must have a better understanding of at least a few things, for example, what the Portal Stones really are. Or at least, Ogier Scholars do.<br /><br />The only other beings not native to this reality, or this world, came here by way of Portal Stones operated by Aes Sedai and the OP. I remember from TGH that using a Portal Stone was difficult and exhaustive for Rand, and while I understand that this was early in the series, I think the difficulty has to do with him using the Portal Stone in a manner other than directed, so to speak.<br /><br />Example: you could open a can of tomatoes with a dremel, but it'd be far less effort to do it the right way and use a can opener. Far less messy too (messy referring to the effects experienced by the group who traveled via PS to Toman Head with Rand, seeing the other lives they could have led).<br /><br />This makes me think there must be a way, other than by channeling, to operate a Portal Stone.<br /><br />Enter the Book of Translation. <br />People theorize that it's a ter'angreal, perhaps one made by a channeler in ages long past. Somehow I doubt that. Considering that it's unique to the Ogier, and considering their reverence for knowledge and books in general, I think that it's exactly what its name suggests: a tome that contains a cipher of sorts. In and of itself, I don't think it has any power, nor do I think it is an object of the Power. <br /><br />It doesn't make sense for that to be the case, since any ter'angreal that could be used by non-channelers was done so through the use of 'standing flows' which don't exist anymore (they sound to me like the OP equivalent of modern power lines), and Ogier can't channel. Why then would they be given possession of a device that utilized the OP when they'd need a channeler to use it?<br /><br />The Ogier are sensitive to something like the OP, though, or at least some of them are - they can treesing. They can't all do it; we know from Loial that it's a Talent of sorts. I think they are coaxing the One Power with treesong, to make and shape and grow and augment the environment around them.<br /><br />This is where, I think, the Book of Translation comes in. I think it's a musical cipher, one that en- or de-codes the markings on the Portal Stones in a way that can be translated into treesong (or earthsong, perhaps) that would, of course, have to be sung by a treesinger, to a Portal Stone. I think that Portal Stones are the method of travel that landed Ogier in this world, and they are their means of egress to their point of origin, especially considering that there seem to be a rather large frequency of Portal Stones being fairly close to stedding that we've heard about.<br /><br />As a side note, perhaps this is why the Portal Stones seem to 'resist being moved' ... as ridiculous as this sounds, perhaps they are petrified trees, or something of the like...<br /><br />I think that, with the Ogier gathered around a Portal Stone, a treesinger can transport them to a realm of choice, which in this case would presumably be their home realm. <br /><br />I also think that this is why Loial will be allowed to address the Great Stump -- whether he knows it or not, he (being the only treesinger we know is alive) will likely be the one who will use the Book, which I have to think will allow the Portal Stones to be connected in some sort of network once properly activated thru use of the Book (Ogier must be near stedding or Portal Stones, and any Ogier outside those areas will be left behind; also, there is as far as we know, only one Book of Translation, and it wouldn't make sense for it to not be included in the process) taking all Ogier within range with them.<br /><br />I know this is a bit of a wild theory but let's face it, we're all running out of things to theorize about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />thoughts, opinions, and flames? <br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-06-24 08:17:57
subject: Reality, Tarmon Gaidon and the Horn of Valere
body:
<p>Recently glaur_dm has posted a theory about Reality, Taveren and how Rands battle with the DO would involve a struggle of restoring order to the Pattern and defeating the DO not by the Power but by his shifting of lives. <a href="http://www.wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1449&amp;Category=Wanderer" target="_blank">Reality, Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, and winning Tarmon Gai&#8217;don</a> I would just like to add an addition to what I believe was a very powerful theory. Here are my basic points<br /><br /><br /><br />*Rand, Mat and Perrin are all not only Taveren, but also linked to each other.<br />*Mins viewing for Rand on the importance of Perrin having to be there twice in his life in order for him to survive. Also the importance of Mat<br />*The color swirlings that are bringing the three taveren back to each other, seem key that they are all together for TG<br />*Mat sounded the Horn of Valere<br />*The heroes of the Horn (100 companions) will be key for the light to win TG<br /><br />Now to put this all together. I believe that Rand, Mat and Perrin will all need to be together for the Final Battle. Like glaur_dm suggested TG will not be a battle of the One Power (in which case Perrin and Mat would be useless) but instead of the unravelling of Reality and the restoring of Order. Rand is the most powerful Taveren soul ever created, he is the champion of the Light. But he will not be able to match up to the DO by himself. Mat and Perrin will also add their powerful threads to the pattern and this will help balance the forces out, while the rest of the world is battled in Chaos as nations fight armies of Trollocs and Dreadlords fight Aes Sedai and Ashaman, what I believe will tip the scales will be the sounding of the Horn of Valere in the Final Scene. The 100 heroes of the Horn will arrive and not their fighting prowess but their powerful threads (many if not all of them were Taveren in their own right) will bring about the victory of the Light in TG.<br /><br />Anyway, just some additions to an already well thought out theory. Would definitely like to hear from the rest of you.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-07-17 07:57:29
subject: The Trolloc Paradox , the Blight and Eschatology
body:
<p>Hi. You might remember me from theories such as <a href="http://www.wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1439&amp;Category=RandlandPhilosophy" target="_blank">Serving the Dark One is morally OK? or Struggle over Suicide</a> and <a href="http://www.wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1438&amp;Category=RandlandPhilosophy" target="_blank">Serving the Dark One is morally OK? Or how I learned to stop worrying and love Ishamael</a> Today I'm going to write on some of my speculations on the nature of the Blight and explaining the Trolloc paradox (i.e. the fact that there seem to be millions, perhaps tens of millions, of Trollocs in a land that cannot subjectively more than a few hundred thousand if that), and further, partially related thoughts on the Last Battle.<br /><br />A Discussion on Population and the Trolloc Paradox<br /><br />The land area of the settled portions of the Westlands are roughly consistent with that of Dark Age Europe, whose population hovered around 20-30mn people. However, unlike them, the Westlands seem to be significantly more urbanized. While Western Europe had no really big cities, the Westlands have several, which, judging from their descriptions, have a few hundreds of thousands of denizens (the likes of Caemlyn, Tear, Illian, Tanchico, Bandar Eban and Tar Valon). So it is reasonable to assume the Westland population is around 50mn.<br /><br />Now from the map the Blight looks like its about twice the size of the Westlands. However, Trollocs appear to be a rather primitive hunter-gathering civilization, and the population densities of such societies never exceed about 10% of settled agricultural civilizations. So assuming such a simple model, the Trolloc population of the Blight cannot be much more than 10mn souls.<br /><br />This is not all, however. The southern Blight (as seen in tEotW) is hardly a bounteful garden of Eden teeming with edible fish, game and berries. I find it hard to imagine even Trollocs eking a living out of it. Further north, you have the Mountains of Dhoom. Now Arctic mountains don't typically support large populations at all. And that's not to mention the &quot;things that dwell amongst the high passes&quot; and frighten the poor little Worms who stray there. Lol.<br /><br />Beyond you now have the Blasted Lands, chilly, black rock totally devoid of any vegetation at all. The only beings who permanently dwell there that we know of are the artificially animated rocky Shadowsmiths who make the Shadow's weapons. And beyond the Blasted Lands the world become ice.<br /><br />So where are the Trollocs then? Perhaps in some areas of the southern Blight there are areas of concentrated farm production worked by type of Shadow serf, or something. Then again, Trollocs are mostly carnivorous, and as is well known converting plant matter to meat loses a lot of energy. Plus growing seasons will be limited at those high altitudes. Finally, the average Trolloc is the weight of three or four men, and large creatures need a correspondingly higher caloric input. Plus Trollocs lead an active lifestyle, what with their internal wars and occasional raids south.<br /><br />Other, book-based, evidence indicates the Trolloc population is in the hundreds of thousands. This is based on the number of Myrddraal.<br /><br />When Demandred was in Shayol Ghul, he remarked he had rarely seen so few people waiting to pay their mite to the Great Lord. This is related to the Shadowsmiths and their manufacture of blades for the Myrddraal. Every sword needs one sacrifice.<br /><br />They wear out every few months...let's say, oh, 4 months. If the typical rate is one sword every 60 minutes, then there's 24 swords in a day, 720 in a month, 3,000 Myrddraal. As the Trolloc to Myrddraal ratio is around 1:100, that would make just 300,000 Trollocs (or 150,000, if the ratio is 1:50, etc, but these are all approximations).<br /><br />(You might argue that I underestimate Myrddraal sword production. However I doubt it. Otherwise the Borderland nations simply would not be able to survive. Even the above implies around 10,000 Borderlanders abducted to the Blight every year. Since capturing them involves bloody raids and fighting, that would mean around 100,000 Borderlanders die every year in the struggle against the Blight, a mortality rate of more than 10 / 100,000 due to this one cause (assuming the Borderland population is &lt;10mn). Any more blades needing to be made / raids, and the Borderlands would have long since collapsed demographically. So actually that figure of 3000 Myrddraal is a HIGH estimate.)<br /><br />In conclusion realistically speaking the Trolloc population can't be more than a few hundred thousand, if that. However, other signs indicate to the contrary...<br /><br />In fantasy in numerical terms evil almost always is overwhelmingly powerful. In WoT this then does not appear to be the case, as the total number of Light-following soldiers in the Westlands is as of now around 1.5mn. This includes half a million loyal Aiel.<br /><br />Also, Ishamael thought nothing of losing 100,000 Trollocs in KoD, just annoyed that it had been done without his authorization.<br /><br />And this is the Trolloc Paradox<br /><br />Now coupled with the force multiplier that is the Light's absolutely overwhelming advantage in channelers, and the Shadow appears to be a doomed cause on the surface of things, all of Demandred's and RJ's assertions to the contrary. After all, the superchanneler goodies between them destroyed a Trolloc host of 100,000 in KoD. Imagine what they could do on a big battlefield, where they are physically shielded by soldiers and can hammer the Shadowspawn all day long! The combined Forsaken will be powerless against them. And consider also who has all the angreal and sa'angreal, and the Horn of Valere. <br /><br />Presumably then the Trollocs will move across the country in bands, coordinating themselves with Draghkar. They will live off the land and converge to destroy big threats (e.g. a human army or fortress). However this makes them very vulnerable to being picked off. Linked Ashaman and Aes Sedai circles could Travel and scour the land off Trolloc bands, protected by an Aiel bodyguard. Possibly they could use Seanchan raken to wreck devastation from above. The only possible obstacle to them would be the overhyped Forsaken...but there's few of them.<br /><br />The Shadow wouldn't be able to do the same to the Light's armies - there's too few of them. Not can they provide rapid (instant) trasport to Shadowspawn, because of the inconvenient fact that they die when going thru a waygate. Thus the Light's armies, supported by a backbone of thousands of channelers, can fight in many places at once; the Shadow can't. (Hmmm, makes me wonder how the Shadow actually managed to nearly win the War or Power. Any ideas? Anyway back to topic...)<br /><br />Basically the Shadow's only trump card would appear to be the Dark One's powers themselves...<br /><br />And to make this a viable work of epic good vs evil fantasy, the Dark One will indeed have to turn everything on its head. And I suspect the mechanism...<br /><br />The Nature of the Blight and Resolution of the Trolloc Paradox<br /><br />I am a fan of glaur_dm's theory <a href="http://www.wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1449&amp;Category=Wanderer" target="_blank">Reality, Tel'aran'rhiod, and Winning Tarmon Gai'don</a>Please read it if you haven't done so already, then come back. <br /><br />Ready?<br /><br />Basically reality is crumbling before the assault of the Dark One and all kinds of strange things are starting to happen. The unnatural heat wave. The dead walking. Palaces becoming labyrinths. Where have we seen all this before?<br /><br />The Blight, of course, and it gets more and more pronounced as we get closer to the Dark One's epicenter of power. The unnatural heat, humidity and decay in the southern Blight. The unnatural skies over Shayol Ghul, the animated Shadowsmiths and the Pit of Doom itself, &quot;Where things can happen that can't happen anywhere else&quot;.<br /><br />I believe the Blight, with its twisted trees and monstrous life forms, and especially the Blasted Lands and Shayol Ghul itself, are the nether regions between the real world and the World of Dreams. It is a kind of projection of humanity's world fears and nightmares onto the physical plane, where the dark recesses of humanity's collective unconsciousness and reality fuse and become physically embodied. (In fact I even have a fanciful idea that the Dark One exists only in the minds of those who &quot;communune&quot; with Him, but I digress). <br /><br />What's a property of TAR? Time flows at a different rate. I suspect time flows slowly there too, and it's especially pronounced in the northern Blight. (Incidentally, that's how the Dark One imparts immortality on the Forsaken - transfers his essence. Consider also that His ultimate goal is to slay the Great Serpent and destroy the Wheel of Time). In other words, think of the Pit of Doom as a black hole, where to the outside observer time flows very slowly, but normally for an observer deep within its gravitational field. Also would explain why the Dark One doesn't get bored being imprisoned so long lol.<br /><br />If that is indeed the case, then that allows for millions, even tens of millions of Trollocs, to live in the Blasted Lands. They go on raids south on what appears for them to be once every week or so, but the Borderlanders perceive it as more like once every year. They stuff their bellies when living off the land in the south (they have to, as their are now far from the DO's revitalizing &quot;essence&quot; ) and return satisfied to their northern abodes, where they're off south again in the next week / year. Same with the Myrrdraal blades. (This would also mean that for a Forsaken a summons to SG, if half an hour, would actually last maybe a day or two or even a week).<br /><br />This theory satisfies two conditions - a) large (in the many millions) fighting Trolloc population, and b) demographic survival for the poor Borderlanders.<br /><br />Eschatology<br /><br />According to glaur_dm, &quot;The DO&#8217;s limited touch on the Pattern now is like a dreamwalker&#8217;s control of TAR in spirit; when the DO &#8220;breaks free&#8221; it will be like Rahvin and Rand entering TAR in the flesh, with immensely more power to reshape (or unravel) reality&quot;. Basically, once the seventh seal breaks (the symbolism), the world will become the Blight.<br /><br />Some specific preditions:<br /><br />1. Channeling will vanish, or perhaps become highly unreliable (as in the Blight), or simply ineffective (as in TAR when dreamwalking). <br /><br />The superchannelers are powerless and no better than common soldiers. While by now the Light has a significant conventional military strength, it is overwhelmed by the hordes of millions of Trollocs who will blitz their way south, from the Blight and via encirclement via gateways.<br /><br />Of course with the demise of channeling the Shadow's communications (Draghkar) will be every bit as good as the Light's (raken), and more dense.<br /><br />The Forsaken will have outlived their purpose. I suspect they'll be purged and command will be given over to Shaidar Haran (Anti-Christ?), True Power using Moridin (false prophet?) and the Dark One himself (The Beast?), who will form a kind of dark trinity. (RJ has included a lot of Christian imagery in the books, as in WotMania's Eschatology article).<br /><br />2. Continuing the theme, there will come the reign of the Shaidar Haran, the DO's avatar on Earth. Elayne will go into hiding, pursued by the dragon (presumable the Shadow's forces). Rand will wander the world blind and forsaken until he realized what he has to do and &quot;By reclaiming his mind, emotions, soul, and compassion, Rand will be able to &#8220;hold in his mind&#8221; the threads of the Pattern and maintain them against the DO&#8217;s attempted unweaving.&quot; <br /><br />I've several ideas how this may come to pass but it's pure speculation, will be up to Brandon. But I suspect this will happen when the Dark One's grip on the world is nearly entirely consolidated and Time itself is about to be unravelled. Also possible that one or two of the Forsaken survive the DO's purges and play a key or important positive role at the end (Cyndane and/or Moghedien are the more likely candidates), or perhaps Fain (to illustrate the old moral of how evil destroys evil).<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-09-24 05:21:07
subject: The Ajahs and the One Power.
body:
<p>OK this is very broad, and more a stimulation of discussion but wanted to know what people thought....<br /><br /><br />Its clear the different political views of the different Ajahs, and how they aim to fight the dark one, but isnt there also a one power difference?<br /><br />EG.<br /><br />1) The Whites tend to be weaker Channelers? (Alviarin who is noticably above average in strength, but only has just enough power to make a gateway, has a prominant position in her Ajah, to start with, and becomes Keeper)<br /><br />2) The Blue have a tendancy to take a select few of great strength (Moiraine, Shaun, Leanne, Sheriam, Anaiya...etc. Supported by the fact that they have a great number of Amyrylins...as well as being described as a very influential ajah (strength determines influence)<br /><br />3) Reds/Green, also tend to take the remmaining strength, but also the greatest number (i.e largest ajahs)<br /><br />4) Yellows...Healing obviously. But dexterity was an idea put forward? But also have a greater ability to make Cuendillar it was discovered when they were forced to produce it. <br /><br />5) Stuck on the Browns and Greys abilities...maybe they're more centred around being well educated.<br /><br /><br />I dont know.....develop this for me!! Different skills and power being attracted to different ajahs........<br /></p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> I would certainly say that there are trends in strength in the One Power between the Ajahs, so nominally I agree. I think that this theory could be developed a bit more with further evidence. A good place to open discussion!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-09-27 18:07:29
subject: Balefire and the Eye
body:
<p>I've been rereading EOTW and was struck by the similarties between the <i>saidin</i> pool and balefire. <br /><br />&quot;The stone struck the glassy surface and slid into the pool without a splash or so much as a ripple as it sank the rock began to swell... that Rand could almost see through, a faint blur as wide as his arm was long. Then it was gone.&quot; meetings at the eye, EOTW<br /><br />Compare it to the showdown at Shadar Logoth in ACOS<br /><br />&quot;'Liah' he whispered. and Balefire leapt from his hand. For less than a heartbeat the shape of her still seemed to be there, all in stark blacks and snowy whites, and then she was gone, dead before her agony began.&quot; A Crown of Swords, ACOS. <br /><br />Both have similar effects on the rock and Liah so are they the same?<br /><br />I think it is a possiblity that balefire is the essence of the OP like the <i>saidin</i> pool is the essence of <i>saidin</i>.<br /><br /><b>1. Motion and Inertia</b><br /><br />When balefire is woven it is discribed as a white bar of light where as the Eye was see through. One was moving, the other still. Its like water in a paddling pool and water coming out of a water pistol. the pool water is blue, still and transparent where as the pistol water is white and moving. Keeping with the water analogy. balefire is like a high pressure jet of water hitting tissue paper, the paper is destroyed on contact. Another sheet of tissue paper in a pool of water would absorb the water and slowly disintigrate, like the rock in the sadin pool.<br /><br /><b>2. Shape</b><br /><br />A bar of balefire is probably the most economical shape for that weave, but it might be possible to weave it into other shapes that might change its appearence. If Rand or Nynaeve were to weave a pool of balefire as part of an ambush plan it could look like the Eye.<br /><br /><b>3. The nature of the OP</b><br /><br />To me the OP is a little like nuclear power except it extends the lifespan rather than shortening it. It also has some nasty side affects such as the channeling sickness wilders go through. <br /><br />Which leads me to belive that although <i>saidin</i> and <i>saidar</i> are used to drive the wheel of time are only safe to use when drawing on it through the 5 powers (water, fire, earth, spirit, air) and actually weaving the OP essence is very dangerous not just to the channeler but to everything else. A real world exemple is electricity, you can't just get a box of electricity and try to use it because you will be badly hurt or killed, you must use it through a computer, a lamp, a phone ect and if there is a power surge or a cable frays you won't be able to use the electricity in the computer until it gets fixed/ replaced.<br /><br /><b>4. The balefire weave</b><br /><br />No one knows precisely how balefire is woven exept that it must use all of the 5 powers. It could be possible that the five powers get woven together in such a way that they create an artificial OP esssence weave. Balefire also has a unique effect on the pattern. It is the only weave shown that has a negative effect on reality. <br /><br /><b>Conclusion</b><br /><br />Due to the similarty between the <i>Sadin</i> pool and the Balefire weave I conclude that the  Balefire weave artificaly creates the essence of the one power and that is why it has such a unique effect on the pattern.</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> Interesting. The One Power seems to 'dissolve' matter in it's pure form. The link between this and Balefire is maybe a bit weak, but it is still possible - and I also rather like the idea of Balefire as a high-velocity blast of pure Power.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-10-03 15:15:47
subject: Bubbles of Evil, The Pattern and TAR...
body:
<p>I have been considering a possible link between these three elements of the Wheel.&lt;/i&gt;<br /><br /><b>The Link Between Bubbles of Evil and TAR</b><br /><br />The effects of bubbles of evil and nightmares in TAR can be seen as very similar. The bubbles of evil are sometimes described as 'nightmares walking':<br /><blockquote>There were reports of strange occurrences in Illian and Cairhien&#8212;there might have been others, but those were the ones they saw&#8212; villages taken by madness, nightmares walking in daylight, two-headed calves that talked, Shadowspawn appearing out of thin air.<br /><br />-<i>Lord of Chaos</i>, A Matter of Thought<br /><br />&quot;No, I will not,&quot; Egwene said firmly. &quot;Not until you want to say something worth listening to. I said nightmares, and I meant nightmares, Nynaeve. When someone has a nightmare while in Tel'aran 'rhiod, it is real too. And sometimes it survives after the dreamer has gone. You just don't realize, do you?&quot;<br /><br />Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve's arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth.<br /><br />-<i>The Fires of Heaven</i>, What Can Be Learned in Dreams<br /></blockquote>These things exist and are created by the fears of mankind. We have seen freakish monsters and 'Shadowspawn appearing from nowhere' in TAR and RL. The effects are similar, but how can they be linked?<br /><br /><b>Linking TAR and the Pattern</b><br /><br />Verin gives us a very good description of how the two are related:<br /><blockquote>With one finger, Verin drew a number of parallel lines across the area she had cleared, lines clear in dust atop the old beeswax. &#8220;Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;The worlds reached by the Portal Stones,&#8221; Egwene said...<br /><br />Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that<br />there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed - lying like this.&#8221; She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. &#8220;The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds.&#8221;...<br /><br />There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, &#8220;the Unseen World.&#8221;<br /><br />-<i>The Dragon Reborn</i>, A World of Dreams<br /></blockquote>So, if the worlds (parallel and perpendicular) are drawn as a grid, TAR is the gaps between them. An over simplication of the reality of multiple dimensions, but an analogy that works. Verin mentions that TAR is inside all of them - it pervades all worlds.<br /><br /><b>Linking All Three</b><br /><br />Imagine one world as a sheet of paper - this is one dimension up from the lines analogy, but still fewer dimensions that exist in the real system. All that is real is represented as a plane. TAR, in comparison, is a three dimensional world. <br /><br />A bubble of evil (a sphere) enters the world from above or below* the plane and creates a cross-section with that plane. It will start off as a pinprick, then rapidly expand in size before reaching a  maximum and disappearing again. This would be the 'area' affected by the bubble of evil and seems to mirror perfectly the sudden appearance and disappearance of these events. It also fits the description of 'bubble' quite well.<br /><br />The intersection of this bubble with the real world brings with it a closeness with TAR and also the existence of nightmares. The form of these nightmares is not determined - they could be existing ones that get forced through as a piece of TAR merges with the real world. Maybe they get caught in the moving bibble or maybe they gravitate to the place where TAR is merging with the real world, trying to escape their limited existence.<br /><br />*When I say above or below, I mean in this analogy. Above or below have little meaning in the Pattern, so read as 'from the TAR dimension that pervades all worlds'.<br /><br /><b>Bubble of Four Dimensions</b><br /><br />Space is three dimensional. The world is not a 2D piece of paper, so the analogy of a sphere passing through a sheet of paper isn't quite right.<br /><br />Instead, think of a four-dimensional object passing through our own three-dimensional space from the higher dimension space of TAR. This would manifest itself initially as a point in space, then become a rapidly expanding sphere of influence before reaching a maximum and shrinking again. Bubbles of evil do not stop because they are defeated, it is simply that their motion through three dimensional space has completed itself. They have a finite lifespan.<br /><br />Bigger bubbles of evil would therefore be expected to cover a larger area and last for a longer period of time. A link via TAR to 'nightmares' would explain why it isn't possible for the DO to simply create his own bubble of evil that will gurantee to kill all those that come in contact with it. Instead he is limited to nightmares that already exist and limited to how long it takes the four dimensional bubble to pass through 3d space.<br /><br />It might also be worth noting that I think the return of ghosts and the freaky stuff happening in KOD was not this kind of bubble of evil, but that i for another day. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-10-12 16:53:15
subject: Rebel, Steward and King Hereafter
body:
<p>One new character that many are a fan of is the Domani general, Rodel Ituralde. He is the only one of the five &#8216;great captains&#8217; we have seen in action independent of the main characters and is the mastermind between the Taraboner rebellion of <i>Crossroads of Twilight</i> and <i>Knife of Dreams</i>. It is pretty clear that he will be a man to watch as the Last Battle approaches and this theory will attempt to make clear what will happen to him.<br /><br /><b>Rebel</b><br /><br />Currently, Rodel Ituralde is not aligned to any side other than his homeland of Arad Doman. The Taraboner rebellion was simply a tool in preventing the Seanchan from continuing their advance into Arad Doman. His ability is certainly held in high regard, even by his enemies:<br /><blockquote>Several have been identified as Dragonsworn believed to be up in Arad Doman. And the name Rodel Ituralde has been mentioned a number of times as the brain behind it all, and the leader. A Domani. He&#8217;s supposed to be one of the best generals this side of the ocean, and if he planned and carried out all this,&#8221; he swept a hand over the map, &#8220;then I believe it.&#8221; The fool sounded admiring!<br /><br />-<i>Knife of Dreams</i>, Embers Falling on Dry Grass<br /></blockquote>What we do not know is what kind of allegiance he may or may not have to the Dragon Reborn. <br /><blockquote>By the time news of the outside world reached him, it was as stale as last month&#8217;s bread, if it was more than rumor to begin. That hardly mattered, though. If the White Tower truly was divided against itself, or men who could channel really were being called to Caemlyn, well, the world would have to do without Rodel Ituralde until Arad Doman was whole again.<br /><br />-<i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>, Glimmersof the Pattern<br /></blockquote>This would presumably extent to the Dragon Reborn too, but it seems to me that he will be returning to a world that has accepted the Dragon Reborn, for the most part, and that he will have to comply. <br /><br /><b>Steward</b><br /><br />The subject of a Steward in Arad Doman has already been mentioned:<br /><blockquote>The Council of Merchants claim King Alsalam still reigns, but they wouldn't or couldn't produce him or say where he is, they seem to be at one another's throats themselves, and Bandar Eban is more than half deserted and given over to the mob.<br /><br />&#8230;If Dobraine can't find anyone in charge, then he will have to be, for the time being.&#8221;<br /><br />If Alsalam was dead, as seemed likely, he would have to appoint a Steward for the Lord Dragon in Arad Doman. But who? It would have to be someone the Domani would accept.<br /><br />-<i>Knife of Dreams</i>, News for the Dragon<br /></blockquote>Who better to accept than the man who is saving their nation from being dominated in a manner that has been seen in Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara? The question is how that information may be conveyed to the Council. Arad Doman itself, particularly Bandar Eban, still seems to be under mob rule. Rodel cannot turn his hand to that until the Seanchan are dealt with. Neither can Rand, really. It is my opinion that they will coordinate the pacifying of Arad Doman between them because Rodel has the knowledge of the nation that Rand lacks. <br /><br /><br />It would also be worthwhile to cast our minds back to the activities of the other Stewards of the Dragon. Gregor Panar den Lushenos was one of the Council on Nine who must have obviously worked with 'Lord Brend'. Darlin Sisnera was the lead figure in the rebellion against Rand. So what does that tell us?<br /><br />It tells us that, regardless of previous personal allegiances, Rand is prepared to put them in the post of Steward because they are suitable for the task and respected among their countrymen and peers.<br /><br /><b>King Hereafter?</b><br /><br />The next step would be to ask what happens to the title of Steward when the Dragon is no longer around? Ituralde himself thinks that the Council has Alsalam smuggled out of Bandar Eban for his own safety, but this is his own view &#8211; we don't know if he has been told this by any Council members. He does say that the Council simply to refuse to talk about Alsalam:<br /><blockquote>His [Alsalam's] signature and seal had marked scores of battle orders since, heading out from wherever the Council had him hidden. They would not: say where that was, even to Ituralde himself. Every woman on the Council that he confronted went flat-eyed and evasive at any mention of the King. He could almost believe they did nor know where Alsalam was. A ridiculous thought, of course.<br /><br />-<i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>, Glimmers of the Pattern<br /></blockquote>But how exactly does one become King of Arad Doman? Rather tellingly, Robert Jordan included a lot of previously unknown information about the monarchy of Arad Doman in the Glossary to <i>Knife of Dreams</i>:<br /><blockquote>The ruler (king or queen) is elected by a council of the heads of merchant guilds (the Council of Merchants), who are almost always women. He or she must be from the noble class, not the merchant, and is elected for life. Legally the king or queen has absolute authority, except that he or she can be deposed by a three-quarter vote of the Council.<br /><br />-<i>Knife of Dreams</i>, Glossary<br /></blockquote>So the question would be, why would he release this information now if it were not going to be relevant fairly soon?<br /><br />The important points from the quote are these:<br /><br />1.The king is an elective position, not a hereditary one. Alsalam's children are irrelevant to the process.<br />2.The monarch must be from the noble class, and not a merchant<br />3.The current monarch can be voted out be a three-quarter vote of the council.<br /><br />So the turn of events would have to run as follows:<br /><br />Firstly, the state of Arad Doman must be stable enough to allow for three quarters of the Council to be able to meet. Secondly, they must decide that Alsalam should be declared dead and his reign ended. His long term absence may be enough, as well as the fact he may be blamed for the chaos that his orders resulted in. Finally they must decide on a replacement and vote him in with the sufficient majority.<br /><br />In Tear, they turned to the Steward of the Dragon and made him King. That was an unprecedented move. Less unprecedented would be to elect Ituralde as King, because he fulfils their requirement of being of noble blood:<br /><blockquote>&quot;The <i>Lord</i> Ituralde has come, Great Mistress.&quot;<br /><br />Graendal set the goblet atop a table that at first glance seemed to be inlaid with ivory dancers. &quot;Then he shall speak with the Lady Basene.&quot;<br /><br />-<i>Lord of Chaos</i>, Threads Woven of Shadow<br /><br />The Council kept an unblinking eye on the King. Ituralde had always believed the merchant Houses interfered too much, yet he wished they would interfere now.<br /><br />He was loyal to his oaths, and Alsalam was a friend, besides, but the orders the King sent could not have been better written to achieve chaos<br /><br />-<i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>, Glimmersof the Pattern<br /></blockquote>Since the position is for life, he also seems the right age &#8211; not too old that he won't live to stabilise Arad Doman in the longer term in the wake the Last Battle and not too young that he wouldn't know what he is doing. He is a known leader of men and very effective at it. The reason why such a famous man isn't already King would be explained by the fact that Alsalam was elected twenty years ago, before Ituralde had a chance to earn his reputation. In fact he might have been Alsalam's successor even if Alsalam had lived a long life and died in his sleep. But that is all idle speculation.<br /><br />Then the last piece of the process would be for the Council to actually elect him King. But given the debt that Arad Doman owes him for saving them from the Seanchan and possibly even from civil war, coupled with Ituralde's suitability above, I think that they wouldn't have to think hard about who to choose. <br /><br />Ituralde is also known to be wary about what the Council might do about the King:<br /><blockquote>They had one last chance, one very small chance, to save Arad Doman. Perhaps even to save Alsalam from himself before the Council of Merchants decided to put another man on the throne in his place. He had been a good ruler, for over twenty years. The Light send that he could be again.<br /><br />-<i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>, Glimmers of the Pattern<br /></blockquote>Will they hold off electing another monarch before then? Rand's choice for Steward seems obvious, but will that also be enough to make him King? I think so.<br /><br />But just in case:<br /><br />This theory would depend on King Alsalam not showing up again. It is fairly certain that Graendal is involved with the King's disappearance since she has several of his relatives in her 'menagerie' and sends out orders in Alsalam's name. But what of the King himself? If Alsalam were to suddenly turn up out of the blue (heavily dosed up on Compulsion, no doubt) before Rodel had been made Steward, never mind King, what would happen? My thought is that Alsalam will be in no position to continue as King anyway, after being effectively 'lobotomised by Graendal. This would necessitate a new monarch, which would still provide a need for Ituralde to step up to the throne. <br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-10-19 10:35:26
subject: The Romantic Life of Sarene Nemdahl
body:
<p>I orginally meant this to be part of a WoT MB post discussing all the viewings in that chapter, but Sarene's section ended up being too long!<br /><br />In PoD, Min has a viewing of Sarene Nemdahl:<br /><blockquote>Images and auras; a tempestuous love affair, of all things! The woman [Sarene] was ice, however beautiful. And there was nothing useful in knowing some man would melt her!<br /><br />-The Path of Daggers, A Cup of Sleep<br /></blockquote>There are a lot of things to note about this viewing. Firstly is the fact that she is the only known White to have a Warder. Whites do NOT usually bond. The relatonship between her and her Warder is somewhat interesting, for a White:<br /><blockquote>Sarene's secret vice was poetry, though she would never have let anyone know she could be interested in something so ... emotional. She would have died of shame had Vitalien, her Warder, ever discovered that she had written lines comparing him to a leopard, among other graceful, powerful and dangerous animals.<br /></blockquote>So her Warder, as far as Sarene is concerned, is unaware of her steamy thoughts about him. It seems reasonable that she will have a relationship with him that is beyond what is usual between Aes Sedai and Warder. It is doubly unusual because she is a White with a Warder &#8211; why did she bond him in the first place? Has she always harbored subconscious desires for him?<br /><br />The second area to look at is the use of the word 'tempestuous'. This is would imply that her relationship with him will not go smoothly. Egwene mentions that Sarene has a temper in LoC.<br /><blockquote>Sarene is like most Whites&#8212;she reasons everything out logically, and sometimes she seems surprised when somebody acts from the heart&#8212;yet she has a temper. Most of the time she keeps it tightly bottled, but put a foot wrong at the wrong time and she can ... snap your nose off before you can blink. She listens to what you say, though, and she will admit she was wrong, even after her temper has snapped. Well, once it mends, anyway.&quot;<br /></blockquote>She mentions her temper again when she acts as an 'attendant' to Harine and Shalon at Far Madding. She says it is a flaw that destroys logic.<br /><br />As far as we know, Sarene has fallen for her Warder, but if it ever came to anything, why would it be tempestuous? Here are a couple of scenarios:<br /><br />1.It is a general term meaning that she has a temper and, although she and her warder will have a physical relationship, it will be doomed because of her temper. Or might be a rocky relationship that works because she is logical enough not to hold a grudge. The Last Battle will bring people closer together in the darkest times and it may be a trigger to bring their relationship to the next level.<br /><br />2.Her Warder does find her poems about him. Though it would be hard to imagine her leaving them about for anyone to read, it might be possible that it was with her belongings when she was captured at Dumai's Wells. Maybe someone (an Aiel Wise One) gave them to him, not knowing it was a secret or misunderstanding the relationship between a Warder and Aes Sedai. Sarene blows up at him, either because he snuck behind her back and read them or because he did not reveal he knew about them. He feels the same way about her, but has to woo her back. One big problem here would be that, if he already knew, she would doubtless to be able to gauge his feelings towards her through the bond.<br /><br />There are a couple of other options here though. An affair also might conjure up the idea of a third person being involved. A love triangle. Sarene certainly seems the sort that men might fight over: <br /><blockquote>Egwene had only heard two lectures by Sarene, on the nature of reality, but It was hard to forget a woman who told you with absolute seriousness that beauty and ugliness were equally illusion while wearing a face that would make any man look twice.<br /></blockquote>But it would seem to me that Sarene would have to fall for another man besides her Warder for this to work. Sarene herself makes some interesting comments about relationships:<br /><blockquote>Sarene felt stunned. Moiraine? Claim another Ajah than her own? Surely not. Sarene had never married&#8212;it was illogical to believe two people could remain compatible for a lifetime&#8212;but the only thing she could compare that to was sleeping with another woman's husband. But it was the charge that stunned her, not the possibility that it might be true. <br /></blockquote>Might this be a possible forshadowing that Sarene will be seduced by, or seduce, another woman's husband or another sister's Warder? If this is the case, there are also a couple of possibilities:<br /><br />1.The wife/sister finds out and all hell breaks loose. Sarene has a temper and may even use it. It might be somewhat hilarious to see an AS go against another woman in a catfight over a man. Given Sarene's view on the pointlessness of long-term relationships and the fact that she will outlive any husband, this would seem unlikely. HOWEVER, she is in frequent contact with a ta'veren who has already made lots of people marry &#8211; an entire village even! And perhaps others besides! She may give into her illogical side in the dark times ahead.<br /><br />2.Her Warder finds out and is really jealous, because he has also been hiding his feeling. In a romantic piece of melodrama, he confesses all to Sarene. She realises that she is being a fool and leaves the other man to live out her life happily ever after with her Warder/husband, Vitalien. <br /><br />Of course it all depends on how much can be told from the Warder bond. It would be hard to imagine that Sarene's Warder does not know how she feels towards him, so how would he feel about that? If he feels the same way, how come she hasn't sensed it or he acted on it? If, on the other hand, he chooses to ignore it because he isn't interested, might this indicate that Sarene is the one who will have to declare her undying love and woo him?<br /><br />Those are all the scenarios I can think of for this viewing. So what do you think? Which do you like best? And aren't there too few romantics left in the world today? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-10-25 18:19:13
subject: One of Demandred's Proxies
body:
<p>I believe that Masema is one of Demandred's proxies, and that we may have even seen Demandred in his company. <br /><br />The Prophet's actions since tFoH have been indicitive of both conquest and Chaos - we know that Demandred was a great general as well as his orders from the Dark One 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule'. Masema's rough geographical location fits what Sammael said to Graendal in LoC about 'events to the South having Demandred's mark all over them'. <br /><br />Secondly, we also know that Masema was in possession of the Seanchan document written by Suroth - a Darkfriend under the sway of Semirhage, who herself is an Ally of Demandred. The fact that it later proved useful to Perrin is beside the point - it is how he might have come by such a document that matters.<br /><br />Furthermore, in Knife of Dreams, the Forsaken were ordered by Moridin to kill Mat &amp; Perrin, and to make sure their followers knew their faces. Demandred couldn't/wouldn't risk killing Perrin himself due to the risk of being detected by Grady and Neald or the host of female channelers surrounding Perrin. So how did he go about carrying out that order? By using another proxy:<br /><blockquote>The onetime tinker had taken wounds, too. Blood coated half his face like a strange mask, there were blood-wet rents in his red-stripped coat, and his eyes looked almost glazed, like those of a corpse...<br /><br />&quot;The Prophet explained it to me.&quot; Aram sounded in a daze, yet his sword moved with liquid ease...&quot;your eyes. You're really shadowspawn. It was you who brought the trollocs to the Two Rivers. he explained it all. Those eyes. I should have known the first time I saw you. You and Elyas with those shadowspawn eyes. I have to rescue the lady Faile from you.&quot;<br /></blockquote>Aram had been spending a lot of time with Masema, and more importantly Demandred. I think that it is likely that he was a victim of compulsion and made to try and murder Perrin. The timing of this fits with the orders of the Naeblis.<br /><br />As for Demandred himself:<br /><blockquote>One of the pair out front was Masema himself...His companion, a bigger man with a sword on his back and another on his saddlebow, kept his cowl up, but perrin thought his head was shaved too. That one managed to study the column and watch Masema with equal intensity. His dark eyes burned almost as much as Masema's.</blockquote>I believe that this is Demandred overseeing Masema while he is meeting Perrin. <br /><br />To sum up, Masema and Aram are both Demandred's proxies and Demandred himself may have been the mysterious figure with the burning eyes.</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> I like this theory because it brings together a few things from later books to make the case that Masema is Demandred's proxy, something which I have believed for a long time. The suggestion that Demandred is the mysterious figure hidden to Perrin is also interesting. Rereading this scene, it is in the company of this man that Masema suddenly decides that using the One Power by Travelling was acceptable just this once.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-11-17 02:22:16
subject: Taim is not Be'lal
body:
<p><b> Introduction </b><br /><br />After KoD was published there was some speculation that Taim equals Be'lal.  I would like to attempt to dispel that myth.  <br /><br /><b> Introducing the Be'lal equals Taim theory </b><br /><br />Some people thought that Taim could be Be'lal because RJ stated in one of his questions of the week that the Dark One CAN resurrect souls that have been balefired.  The stronger the balefire that was used, the less chance the Dark One has of reclaiming the soul. Since Moiraine is not ultra strong in the power, the Dark One could have had a chance to reclaim Be'lal's departed soul.  <br /><br />Other reasons people thought Be'lal was Taim are the reasons that were brought up in the whole Taim equals Demandred and Taim equals Moridin theories.  Taim obviously has a great deal of knowledge of the power, refers to the Aiel as the 'so-called' Aiel, knows about angreal, knows how to test a man for chanelling, and quickly raises an army of several hundred Asha'man.<br /><br />One interesting observation is Taim uses the gauntleted fist clutching lighting bolts sigil on his palace doors (as seen in KOD). Light in the Night pointed out that Be'lal also used on a coach in Tear that kidnapped Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve. Interestingly, Sammael also uses this sigil. There are other arguments to the Be'lal equals Taim argument that have been posted to the wotmania message boards.  <br /><br /><b> Disproving the Theory </b><br /><br />Now that I have introduced the Be'lal equals Taim theory, I would like to begin disproving it.  <br /><br />In the the prologue to POD, Moridin is playing sha'rah.  He thinks that only nine people still alive remember how to play the game.  Since sha'rah did not appear to survive the breaking, those nine people would all have to be the surviving forsaken:  Moridin, Graendal, Demandred, Semirhage, Mesanna, Cyndane, Moghedien, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar.  <br /><br />Moridin has intimate knowledge of who the forsaken are and where they stand with the Dark One.  Moridin appeared to be involved with Lanfear's rebirth as Cyndane since he posseses her cour'souvra.  Moridin also knew of the rebirth of Osan'gar and Aran'gar since he calls them together in his meetings with the Forsaken.  Shaidar Haran also tells Graendal to see Moridin after she bows to Shaidar Haran in POD.  I propose that if Be'lal was reborn, Moridin would know about it.  <br /><br />But if Be'lal was reborn, would Moridin not have thought that ten people alive knew how to play the game of sha'rah instead of nine?  I think this is conclusive proof that Be'lal had not been reborn at the time of the prologue of POD.<br /><br /><b> Conclusion </b><br /><br />Based on Moridin's point of view regarding the sha'rah game, I think we confidently say that Be'lal was not reborn at the time of the prologue of POD.  Since Taim first introduced himself to Rand in LOC, we can also confidently say that Taim is not Be'lal. <br /><br />Using this same logic, I think we can also assume that Asmodean and Sammael were not reborn by the time of the prologue of POD.  This quote could also be used as evidence that Sammael truly was killed by Mashadar at the end of ACOS.  <br /><br />I have now made all my pertinent points.  Rip me to shreds.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-11-27 17:39:15
subject: Black and White
body:
<p>I am of the opinion that one of the White Sitters in the White Tower is Black Ajah, that Sitter being Velina.<br /><br />Here is a quick summary of why I think so:<br /><br /><b>Plurality of Black Sitters</b>- In aPoD, An Unwelcome Return, Alviarin thinks to herself about the existence of Black Sitters (plural). Therefore there must be at least one more Sitter in the Tower that is Black.<br /><br /><b>Flinch!</b>- Velina has an odd reaction to Alviarin's return:<br /><blockquote>The six Sitters skidded to a halt uncertainly when Alviarin did not move out of their way. Even a Keeper with Alviarin's influence did not impede Sitters. <i>Though Velina, normally the most self-possessed woman in the Tower, flinched for some reason.</i> Alviarin glanced once at Elaida, coolly, studied the Sitters for a moment, and understood everything.<br /></blockquote>This is from Elaida's PoV. This reaction would make sense if Velina were either in Alviarin's heart or was one of the two unknown sisters who know Alviarin's identity as the head of the Black Ajah. Since one of the three who know the identity of the Black Ajah Head is Galina, the former Highest of the Red, it would be fitting if one of the others was a Sitter. <br /><br />Elaida noting a flinch (a severe reaction from a White!) being out of character for 'the most self-possessed woman in the Tower' would point to more than just a Keeper being displeased at a Sitter.<br /><br /><b>Appearance</b>- Velina's appearance is described as 'fierce' and at odds with her being the model of a White sister. Not very conclusive, other than Jordan has sometimes used little clues like that to point towards Black sisters. <br /><br /><b>Shoddy Logic</b>- Velina's shoddy logic towards the Seanchan would fit in very well with the Shadow's plan to sow chaos. Rather than advocate a plan, she denies the existence of the adam.<br /><blockquote>&quot;No ter'angreal has ever been found that can 'control' a woman's channeling ... Very few have ever been found that perform the same function. Therefore, logically, if such a ter'angreal were found, or more than one, improbable as that must be, there could not be sufficient of them to control more than two or three women at most. It follows that the reports of these so-called Seanchan are exaggerated wildly. If women on 'leashes' exist, they cannot channel. Plainly not. I do not deny these people hold Ebou Dar, and Amador, and perhaps more, but clearly they are but a creation of Rand al'Thor, perhaps to frighten people into flocking to him. Like this Prophet of his. It is simple logic.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I am very glad you don't deny Amador and Ebou Dar at least, Velina,&quot; Shevan said drily.<br /></blockquote>Misinforming Elaida seems to a matter of course for Alviarin, so why not for Velina? Shevan, a Brown, finds Velina's conclusions ridiculous and I think so too. What's more, she also believes that the Prophet is a tool of Rand...<br /><br /><b>Convenient Absence</b>- When Alviarin returns to the White quarters in KoD, she says that almost all the White sisters in the Tower were present. Not Velina, however, because it would be odd of Alviarin to see her in the quarters and NOT think of her being a fellow conspirator. In fact, Velina is the ONLY sister of the White that is in the Tower at the moment to not be present. Jordan also uses this trick when Velina 'flinches' at Alviarin by having the scene from Elaida's PoV.<br /><br /><b>Role in Coup</b>- Velina was also one of the Sitters that stood to depose Siuan Sanche. I would make sense if more than one of these women were Black Ajah. <br /><br />Four of them - Pevara, Sierin, Doesine and Yukiri - are definitely not Black. Teslyn was also not Black, and the other red sister was Elaida, who isn't Black either. That leaves four possibilities - Velina, Rubinde, Evenellein and Sedore. <br /><br />At least one of them may be Black, but it is worth noting that Velina is the ONLY White who voted and, without her, Elaida wouldn't have had the legal requirement to depose Siuan. A Black sister using shoddy logic conveniently to match the aims of the Black Ajah may make sense in this situation. <br /><br /><b>Conclusion</b><br />It would make sense to me if Velina were another Black Sitter in the Tower. I've make a, maybe overly, complete list of all the small hints that I believe Jordan has left to that effect. Voting time! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-12-10 05:38:19
subject: Burned out channelers can be healed
body:
<p><b> Introduction </b><br /><br />This is a very simple theory.  In past discussions, a distinction between being stilled and burned out has been raised.  Some liken stilling to a simple cutting off from the source, like a telephone wire getting cut in half.  Burning out is often likened to the connection to the One power being utterly destroyed, like a telephone pole and wires getting struck by lightning.  Stilled channelers can still sense the source, while burned out channelers can no longer sense the source at all.  One reason Setalle Anan may have been able to survive longer than other stilled Aes Sedai is because she could no longer sense the source. <br /><br />I have done a search of the WoT FAQ, the WoTMB, theorypost, and RJ's past interviews.  There is nothing in any of these sources that indicates that burning out cannot be healed.  I noticed a quote in CoT that made me want to reexamine my original assumptions.    <br /><br /><b> The Theory </b><br /><br />I have only one new argument to add to all the discussion that has transpired over the years.  In CoT, <i> Secrets </i>, Egwene is walking in on the the tent with the novices.  She thinks to herself, <i>&quot;Novices pointed her [Leane] out in awe, a sister who had once been Keeper, who had been stilled, and Healed so she could channel again, if not so strongly as before.  And then she changed her Ajahs!  The newest women in white already had learned that that just never happened, though the other was becoming a part of lore, unfortunately.  <b>It was harder to make a novice go slowly when you could not point out that she risked ending her quest for the shawl by burning herself out and losing the One Power forever.</b>&quot;</i><br /><br />Egwene, in the same paragraph, interchangeably thinks of Leane being healed from her stilling and of no longer being able to scare novices about the dangers of  burning themselves out and losing saidar forever.  Egwene clearly thinks that the burned out state can be healed.  This is the only quote I can think that supports the argument that burned out chanelers can be healed.  <br /><br />Obviously Egwene could have a flawed perspective.  But she is the Amyrlin and certainly a great deal of discussion was raised in Salidar about the subject after Siuane and Leane were killed.  The Yellow Ajah probably did nothing but talk about this event for months.  Their ideas and assumptions most likely trickled back to Nynaeve and Egwene.  Egwene most likely did not derive her conclusions by herself.  With so many novices in their camp, many sisters have probably already discussed the possibility of one of them being burning-- especially since some of them are doing new things like making cuendillar.     <br /><br />I think RJ put this POV from Egwene in CoT to keep the debate alive about stilling versus burning out.  He could even being be giving us a hint that a burned out channeler will be healed in AMoL.  Perhaps the process for healing a burned a channeler is similar to healing a stilled channeler but more complicated.  A channeler skilled at delving may be able to find all the intricate details that need to be fixed and put them back together whole.<br /><br />Setalle Anan is currently traveling with Mat Cauthon.  If Setalle stays with Mat, she will eventually meet up with Rand's crew since Mat and Rand have to be re-united.  I would not consider it impossible that someone like Damer Flynn or Nynaeve could heal Setalle.  Once Setalle learns that several stilled channelers have been healed, she will probably jump at the chance for someone to try healing her.  I'm not sure this plotline carries any major implications for AMoL, but I wanted to raise the possibility.<br /><br />As the Human Torch says, &quot;<i>Flame on!</i>&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> I find this to be very plausible. There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence to the contrary. The only question that remains is if anyone will even think to try. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-12-26 03:49:53
subject: There is no Wheel of Time and LTT is the DO!
body:
<p>This may be the most mind-blowing theory ever. If it&#8217;s accurate we&#8217;re all in for a very interesting final volume. This may require some perseverance to get through, some determination not to reject it outright. Please be patient, you might actually agree.<br /><br />I strongly suggest everyone read <b>Ciel, the Baerlon Maid&#8217;s</b> &#8220;<i>?What is the Dark One?</i>&#8221; which gave me the basic seed for this idea. <b>Samshaidar Mhael&#8217;s</b> &#8220;<i>How it all fits together&#8230;</i>&#8221;,<b> bobsledai&#8217;s</b> &#8220;<i>In Search of the Dark One</i>&#8221;, <b>glaur_dm&#8217;s</b> &#8220;<i>Reality, Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, and Winning Tamon Gai&#8217;don</i>&#8221; and <b>Souvramael&#8217;s</b> &#8220;<i>&#8230;how I learned to stop worrying and love Ishamae</i>l&#8221;  had their parts to play. All are very interesting and make points which, if taken in a different context all but help me prove my point. Thanks to them in particular for those works. Thanks also go to the other posters whose points may have had a part to play but didn&#8217;t get specific mention. You are not forgotten, but there is only so much room and this posting is very long; I had to save some space somewhere. *sigh*<br /><br />Here we go&#8230;<br /><br />&#8220;<i>The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over again and expecting a different result. </i>&#8221;<br /><br />The Wheel of Time &#8211; the Pattern, Heroes of the Horn, te&#8217;veren, the Ways, Mashadar, the Forsaken &#8211; all of it&#8230; is not real. It is all a psychotic delusion.<br /><br />Here&#8217;s the distilled essence: Take everything we know about Lews Therin Telemon, before the drilling of the Bore, as fact (for ease of reference). From there&#8230; something <u><b>really bad</b></u> happened (we cannot say for sure exactly what). LTT couldn&#8217;t handle his involvement/responsibility and went nuts &#8211; flakier than a box of Raisin Bran. He&#8217;s caught in a psychotic loop, reliving his trauma over and over.<br /><br />Psychosis (from the Greek <i>psyche</i>, for mind or soul, and <i>osis</i>, for abnormal condition), a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a &quot;<u>loss of contact with reality</u>&quot;. People experiencing psychosis may report <u>hallucinations</u> or <u>delusional beliefs</u>, may exhibit personality changes and <u>disorganized thinking</u>.<br /><br />Paranoia is a thought process characterized by <u>excessive anxiety or fear</u>, often to the point of <u>irrationality and delusion</u>. Paranoid thinking typically includes <u>persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself</u>. In the original Greek, ( <i>paranoia</i> ) simply means madness (<i>para</i> = outside; <i>nous</i> = mind). Historically, this characterization was used to describe <u>any delusional state</u>.<br /><br />Schizophrenia, from the Greek roots <i>schizein</i> ( &quot;to split&quot; ) and <i>phren</i>- ( &quot;mind&quot; ) is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental disorder characterized by <u>abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality</u>. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, <u>paranoid or bizarre delusions</u>, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction.<br />align=&quot;right&quot;<i>Wikipedia</i><br /><br />Let&#8217;s take a look at some of the aspects of the story as metaphors or symbols for LTT&#8217;s mental illness.<br /><br /><b>The Creator</b> = LTT from before the trauma; the nice guy, the handsome chap who ran the Hall of the Servants, loved and respected world-wide. &#8220;Once you stood first among the Servants. One you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion.&#8221; Everyone likes to believe they&#8217;re basically good at heart and LTT was apparently the world&#8217;s greatest &#8220;good guy&#8221;, or at least so he&#8217;s present within the continuum of the story.<br /><br /><b>The Dark One</b> = The part of LTT responsible for the trauma. Everyone has a dark side and coming to terms with it is rarely easy.<br /><br /><b>The Wheel of Time</b> = LTT&#8217;s psychotic loop, the mental prision he&#8217;s trapped within, the perpetually repeating cycle of self-recrimination.<br /><br /><b>The One Power</b> = LTT&#8217;s guilt, which powers the&#8221; Wheel&#8221;. One can do all sorts of interesting things with it if you use it right&#8230;<br /><br /><b>The Pattern</b> = Literally the pattern of LTT&#8217;s dementia, the pattern of his rationalizations and determination to avoid resolution. If the Pattern of his self-abusive behavior is threatened then the Wheel (his psychotic loop) is threatened. If it is destroyed, he must confront his problem&#8230; and he really doesn&#8217;t want that.<br /><br />A way to approach this whole idea is to completely alter our own thinking and view everything we know from a totally different (near diametrically opposite) direction; in a way we need to embrace <b>Souvramael&#8217;s</b> concept of <i>&#8220;&#8230;how I learned to stop worrying and love Ishamael&#8221;</i>. The &#8220;bad guys&#8221; are really the good guys &#8211; the ones trying to heal him and get him to confront his problem and break the cycle, while the &#8220;good guys&#8221; are really the bad guys &#8211; real people and/or mental constructs which are helping perpetuate his demented state by supporting justifying his actions.<br /><br />Let&#8217;s look specifically at the Forsaken, the people and their credentials. The following are excerpted and mostly paraphrased from the Guide, but retain context. NOTE: the Guide presents this information from the perspective of an early 4th age researcher, an individual from <u>within to story</u>, therefore a perspective from within LTT&#8217;s psychosis. Any but the most essential background information about any individual might well be colored with LTT&#8217;s prejudices, his psychotic &#8211; therefore irrational &#8211; perceptions. The depiction of the &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; as evil people could either be results of LTT&#8217;s paranoid and/or delusional beliefs, or they may be glimpses into his real personal perceptions of them (true or not), which he ever expressed those opinions to them or not.<br /><br />Eval Ramman (Balthamel/Aran&#8217;gar) &#8211; a historian specializing in the study of vanished cultures.<br /><br />Ishar Morad Chuain (Aginor/Osan&#8217;gar) &#8211; among the <b>foremost biological scientists</b> in the AoL. He understood &#8220;the most basic structures of living things&#8221; better than anyone else in the Age.<br /><br />Duram Laddel Cham (Be&#8217;Lal) &#8211; a renowned advocate, representing people in courts of law (Defense Attorney?).<br /><br />Joar Addam (Asmodean) &#8211; an acclaimed composer.<br /><br />Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishamael) &#8211; one of the foremost philosophers of his time. Wrote esoteric works like &#8220;Analysis of Perceived Meaning&#8221;, &#8220;Reality and the Absence of Meaning&#8221;, and &#8220;Disassembly of Reason&#8221;.<br /> <br />Tel Janin Aellinsar (Sammael) &#8211; world renowned sportsman and a reputed friend of LTT.<br /><br />Mierin Eronaile (Lanfear) &#8211; respected, even famous, researcher and former lover.<br /><br />Kamarile Maradim (Graendal) &#8211; the world&#8217;s <b>top mental health expert</b>.<br /><br />Nemene Damendar Boann (Semirhage) &#8211; <b>world&#8217;s greatest healer</b> &#8220;known for her ability to heal any injury, even bring people back from the brink of death when all else had failed. Summoned from around the world to deal with the most difficult cases, in particular to do with the brain.&#8221;<br /><br />Saine Tarasind (Mesaana) &#8211;teacher.<br /><br />Lillen Moiral (Moghedien) &#8211; financial/investment advisor<br /><br />Barid Bel Medar (Demandred) &#8211; LTT&#8217;s closest rival and competitor, would have had LTT&#8217;s positions and titles if not for LTT. Possibly a friend, definitely a colleague.<br /><br />Ared Mosinel (Rahvin) &#8211; preferred diplomacy, manipulation and political intrigue to open conflict. Other specifics are unknown, but seem available information seems to point to a high-level government functionary and&#8230; given the varied and generally impressive resumes of the others, it would be reasonable to presume he held some important and/or influential position in LTT&#8217;s life.<br /><br />Some of these we people are top notch in their fields; medicine, philosophy, etc. Others are famous for their pursuits (sports, politics, whatever). Others have some sort of meaning in his life (former lover, investment advisor, etc.). Let&#8217;s face it, LTT (because of his position as the High Seat of the Hall of Servants) hobnobbed with people at very high levels, from all sorts of backgrounds and pursuits. He knows some &#8220;lesser&#8221; people too, folks that don&#8217;t occupy such rarified atmospheres. That doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re beneath him. But in his position, he got to know a <u>lot</u> of people. Whether you have an expected lifespan of about 500 years or not, some of the people you meet in your life might make it big, and some might not. The same seems to be as common in the AoL with LTT as with anyone else.<br /><br />These people are actually trying to heal LTT, but they&#8217;re having a very rough go of it. It may even be that the problem isn&#8217;t solely functional (purely mental) but might have organic characteristics as well (physical damage) which is why Nemene Damendar Boann (Semirhage), perhaps the greatest of all Healers, is involved. The specific rolls of the others can only be guessed at; some of them may be present in assistive or consultative roles while others are there in other support capacities, even if just emotional (friends who care &#8211; the ones sitting around in the waiting room?)<br /><br />There are seven basic stages in the process of coming to terms with grief and/or loss: Denial, Bargaining, Anger, Despair, and Acceptance, Letting Go, and Death. NOTE: Not all of these stages are necessarily applicable (like death &#8211; most pertinent in terminal illness), but they are presented because they would be learned that way as part of a formal education. Let&#8217;s look at stage 1, does this look like it&#8217;s applicable to LTT?<br /><br />Exhibit A: What is denial?<br />1	<u>Unwillingness or inability</u> to face problems on either a <u>conscious or subconscious level</u>.<br />2	A <u>defensive response; a protection from pain, hurt, or suffering</u>.<br />3	<u>A way to avoid conflict, disagreement, or disapproval from others</u> and to <u>avoid facing the negative consequences of reality</u>.<br />4	A way to <u>repress the truth</u> of loss.<br /><br />Looks to me like they point straight at him &#8211; he&#8217;s almost the poster child&#8230;<br /> <br />Exhibit B: Persons in denial &#8211;	<br />1	Can <u>get caught up in magical or excessive fantasy</u> about the loss or problem.<br />2	Often <u>run away from the truth</u> concerning their problem or loss.<br />3	<u>Avoid or reject those who are intent on confronting them</u> with their problems.<br /><br />Hmmmmm&#8230; I think we&#8217;re still on track.<br /><br />Those attempting to heal LTT ( those nasty &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; ) are running into this pattern of denial and avoidance; LTT is mentally running away, isolating himself as thoroughly as possible to avoid confrontation; irrationally building a fantasy/magical milieu for his rationalizations to avoid a confrontation with the truth of whatever it is he did, or feels guilt about.<br /><br />Exhibit C: <u>Unresolved</u> denial can result in &#8211; <br />1	<u>Delusional thinking</u>.<br />2	<u>Greater conflict between the denier and non-deniers</u>.<br />3	Fantasy or magical thinking, allowing distorted thinking <u>o become habit</u>.<br />4	<u>Poor problem-solving and decision-making abilities</u>.<br />5	Total <u>avoidance or withdrawal from everyone</u> who knows of the loss or problem; <u>generally becoming a social recluse, or worse</u>.<br />6	A <u>maladaptive pattern of coping with the loss or problem</u>.<br />7	<u>Resentment of those who are confronting</u> him about the problem or loss.<br />8	<u>Prolonging the time before confronting the pain, hurt, and suffering</u> involved in the loss or problem.<br /><br />This follows LTT&#8217;s thought and behavior pattern to a &#8220;T&#8221;.<br /><br />Exhibit D: A person is honestly confronting denial <u>only</u> when they &#8211; <br />1	Ask themselves <u>honestly</u> why they are in denial, what benefits are to be gained by denial, and what is too painful to face.<br />2	<u>Recognize</u> when they are caught up in magical or fantasy thinking about their problem or loss.<br />3	<u>Recognize the negative consequences</u> that result from their denial behavior.<br />4	Do not allow themselves to fall back into a <u>safe emotional zone</u>, but keep their emotional responses open and honest.<br />5	Allow themselves to admit to being out of control.<br />6	<u>Trust others to help them with their problem</u>, and <u>risk of the loss of acceptance or approval</u> by those who may be unable to handle their open, honest admission of the problem.<br />7	Refute the irrational beliefs that block their acceptance of the loss or problem.<br />8	Recognize that denial is a natural stage in the loss/grief response.<br />9	Believe that out of failure comes success; accepting the failure as a chance for personal growth.<br /><br />We sure don&#8217;t see much of this coming from LTT in the story, do we? So we can easily conclude that he is NOT &#8220;honestly confronting denial&#8221; and is stuck in his loop.<br /><br />LTT seems to waffle back and forth between the stages of Anger and Despair never quite moving towards Acceptance and eventual resolution. He is <u>certainly deep</u> in denial, demonstrated in the opening Prologue &#8220;Dramonmount&#8221; at the start of EotW. Reread that whole prologue again, keeping the stages of denial in mind; they&#8217;re <br />Even presented in the proper order&#8230;<br /><br />We open the scene with LTT in deep denial, completely lost in &#8220;fantasy&#8221; or &#8220;magical&#8221; thinking, having at least mentally isolated himself to avoid the pain of his loss/guilt. When Ishy shows up, things begin to change. There is a verbal exchange which demonstrates LTT can still admit some connection to reality, still recognizes some truth at some level,<br /><br />&#8220;That name. Shai &#8211; &#8220; Lews Therin shuddered and raised a hand as though to ward off something. &#8220;You mustn&#8217;t say that name. It is dangerous.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;So you remember that much, at least. Dangerous for you, fool, not for me&#8220;<br /><br />but LTT shies away from that truth and returns to his psychotic denial.<br /><br />&#8220;I cannot imagine what is keeping Ilyena. She will give me the rough side of her tongue if she thinks I have been hiding a guest from her. I hope you enjoy conversation&#8230;&#8221;<br /><br />It takes Ishy&#8217;s version of Healing to force LTT to a much higher level of rational awareness. From this point LTT seems to jump immediately to the Anger stage. Though not considered common, it is possible for people to skip one or more stages of the process so this apparent leap past Bargaining isn&#8217;t out of order. One could make the argument that, during the later story, LTT&#8217;s frequent calling upon the Light for forgiveness and/or death as punishment are attempts at Bargaining, but even if accurate it would not solve the basic problem; LTT never gets to the final stages &#8211; he keeps repeating the cycle&#8230; the Wheel (his psychotic loop) keeps turning.<br /><br />Then he becomes belligerent with Ishy, exhibiting the next stage, Anger:<br /><br />&#8220;For what else you have done, there can be no forgiveness, Betrayer, but for Ilyena&#8217;s death I will destroy you beyond anything your master can repair. Prepare to &#8211;&#8220;<br /><br />After a short interchange, LTT then moves to Despair.<br /><br />&#8220;His howl beat at the walls, the howl of a man who had discovered his soul damned by his own hand, and he clawed at his face as if to tear away the sight of what he had done&#8230;&#8221;<br /><br />This is where he attempts to commit suicide, a not uncommon behavior &#8211; especially among certain extreme groups like the terminally ill, or those who feel responsible for a great amount of pain and suffering in others, even if by accident. LTT never gets to the stage of Acceptance, either unable or unwilling to progress any further.<br /><br />To understand the &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; a little better in their roles as helpers and healers, let&#8217;s examine what&#8217;s involved with attempting to get an individual in denial to confront that denial and move towards resolution; how we deal with the individual until they can snap themselves out of it, or until we have to perform an intervention.<br /><br />Exhibit E: In coping with denial in others we need to &#8211;<br />1	Have a <u>great deal of patience</u> in order to <u>allow them the time</u> it takes to finally confront their loss or problems.<br />2	Be <u>accepting of the denial</u> as a psychological defense that is <u>a vehicle for them to retain their sanity</u>.<br />3	<u>Be careful in confronting them, so that they don&#8217;t run away or withdraw from reality even more</u>. (Ishy seems to have messed this one up, badly)<br />4	Be <u>ready for their resistance</u> in dealing with the truth about their loss and problems.<br />5	Resist solving their problems for them; <u>resist the desire to continue sheltering or protecting them from their loss</u> or problems.<br />6	Provide them with <u>subtle means to face the problems</u> (again, Ishy bombed it) by giving them newspaper articles, pamphlets, or books on the subject; suggesting TV, or radio programs on the subject, or proposing professional help. (hard to do if they&#8217;re catatonic, and &#8220;subtle&#8221; hardly describes Ishy&#8217;s actions)<br />7	Recognize that if they are locked into a chronic state of denial, which is debilitating to their mental health, that a denial intervention may be necessary.<br /><br />If &#8220;intervention&#8221; is necessary its form will often depend on mercurial circumstance. The following is a typical list of &#8220;things to do&#8221; for a standard intervention, providing the subject is conscious, ambulatory, and otherwise reasonably rational.<br /><br />Exhibit F: If a person is using a chronic behavior pattern of denial injurious to his mental health the following can be used as a model for intervention, which may be useful in helping break him through the debilitating denial.<br /><br />Step 1. Prepare a <u>written script</u> of incidents characteristic of the target person's denial pattern of behavior. <br /><br />Step 2. <u>Seek out other people who are closely related to the target person</u>. Ask these people to prepare a <u>written script</u>, as in Step 1, for incidents of denial with which they know the target person has been involved.  <br /><br />Step 3. Seek out the assistance of a <u>counselor</u> or <u>mental health professional</u>, especially if you believe the aftermath of a denial intervention with the target person may result in that person needing to get ongoing help. Invite this profes&#172;sional person to the intervention rehearsal (Step 4). <br /><br />Step 4. Meet with everyone who has written a script of denial incidents. <u>Rehearse how they will be presented to the target person</u>. <u>Choose a moderator for the intervention</u>. This same person will also lead the group later in the actual intervention.<br /><br />NOTE: Steps 5 through 11 may be of impossible, mainly because we do not know if LTT is conscious and ambulatory in his &#8220;real&#8221; world or if he&#8217;s catatonic and already under medical care. If he is a hospitalized catatonic, then these steps are moot as that this type of &#8220;intervention&#8221; cannot be done with an unconscious person. Other means must be taken, exclusively within his mind. I presume he&#8217;s catatonic, but that&#8217;s just for ease of logistics. These extra steps are present merely for informational value, to complete the list.<br /><br />Step 5. Set up a date, time, and place for the denial intervention session. Make sure that all of the variables of location, timing, and schedule are conducive to helping the target person relax and listen to what is being shared. (Have the session at a neutral site; not at a psychiatric hospital or chemical dependency treatment center).<br /> <br />Step 6. Invite the target person to meet at the scheduled date, time, and place of the planned intervention. Do not reveal the agenda of the meeting or the participants. This is important as he may resist coming to such a meeting if he suspects he will be confronted with his denial.  <br /><br />Step 7. Bring the target person to the meeting, and introduce the intent of the meeting to him. It is to share the love and concern of his family and friends who are in attendance. The family and friends are there because they are concerned about the target person's health and happiness and about how the denial pattern is affecting their relationship.  <br /><br />Step 8. A moderator (selected by the group in Step 4) then introduces each intervenor, one at a time. The intervenors use the written scripts to explain all of the denial incidents. Each speaker continuously reassures the target person that he is loved. They share their concern about his welfare if he continues to use the denial pattern.<br /> <br />Step 9. Once all of the intervenors have presented their scripts, the target person is faced with verbal and written evidence of the denial pattern. The moderator then shares with the target person an outline of steps to be taken to assist the person in overcoming the denial pattern. (These steps are decided by all of the intervenors at the meeting in Step 4.)  <br /><br />Step 10. The target person may then be introduced to the counselor or mental health professional, if present, who shares a clinical perspective on the denial pattern and can explain what treatment is available.  <br /><br />Step 11. The intervenors then let the target person react to all that has been presented. The group ``problem solves'' with the target person about the next steps in breaking the denial pattern.  <br /><br />The eleven steps in the denial intervention are <u>repeated as often as needed</u> to keep the target person from reverting to the old pattern of denial.<br /><br />Though <b>Ciel&#8217;s</b> &#8220;<i>What is the Dark One? </i>&#8221; has a very different premise and focus, statements made there were particularly interesting and helped spark this idea (credit or blame can be assigned as one sees fit). I&#8217;ll excerpt or paraphrase some of these ideas.<br /><br />The DO is way too ignorant. If he really has <u>fought the Dragon millions of times</u> you would think he should be smart or informed enough to &#8211; <br /><br />a. Not let the Bore get resealed. Letting this occur <u>repeatedly</u> is <u>pretty stupid</u>.<br /> <br />b. Not try to convert the Dragon Reborn. <u>It&#8217;s failed over and over, why should it work this time? </u><br /><br />c. <u>He&#8217;s gone through this cycle uncounted times</u>; very much a &#8220;Groundhog&#8217;s Day&#8221; scenario. He must be tired of it, but he <u>hasn&#8217;t learned much</u> out of it.<br /><br />d. One would think that with all this experience he would be ready and <u>the moment the bore was made</u> he would grab up some Forsaken; teach them immediately how to make Trollocs, Worms and worse; send every Light friend in the world to a quick death before anyone knew what was happening. <u>But he doesn't</u>. He came out, there were some problems, an armistice, a big war, lose, repeat <i>ad infinitum</i>.<br /><br />In other words repetitive, non-resolution oriented (but constantly failing) behavior. I reiterate: &#8220;<i>The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over again and expecting a different result. </i>&#8221; Also, <b>Ciel</b> makes the point that the DO &#8220;<u>keeps changing plans midstream</u>&#8221;. This demonstrates chaotic or irrational behavior, easily classifiable as &#8220;Poor problem-solving and decision-making abilities&#8221; or a &#8220;maladaptive pattern of coping&#8221;, both noted in Exhibit C.<br /><br />This is certainly germane, as it helps cement the idea that the DO&#8217;s behavior pattern is counter productive, even self-defeating; insane. He doesn&#8217;t learn from his mistakes, doesn&#8217;t try to find new ways to solve his problem, and apparently doesn&#8217;t even recognize the fact that he&#8217;s locked into this non-productive cycle. He&#8217;s in denial &#8211; because LTT is in denial and the two are one in the same.<br /><br />Through each &#8220;turning of the Wheel&#8221; (each repeat of the psychotic loop) the DO (LTT&#8217;s &#8220;evil&#8221; self) keeps repeating the same failed behaviors over and over, apparently never even getting a clue, perhaps because he&#8217;s not supposed to. He&#8217;s doomed to inevitable failure because that failure is the only way he (and therefore LTT) can stay safely locked into the self-imposed psychic isolation, too afraid to come to reality and cope with a major guilt complex; perpetually isolated to avoid coming to terms with the problem, and certainly never getting another opportunity to harm anyone else, even by accident.<br /><br />&#8220;<i>In Search of the Dark One</i>&#8221;, by <b>bobsledai</b>, explores the thought that the DO&#8217;s prison is TAR &#8211; certainly relevant if LTT&#8217;s delusion is a willful, self-perpetuating catatonic state and/or if he has suffered some horrible physical damage that prevents full, rational consciousness. The pros doing the &#8220;psychic surgery&#8221; have no other venue in which to work but LTT&#8217;s mind&#8230; his &#8220;dreams&#8221; however filtered through the distorted lens of his psychosis.<br /><br />LTT&#8217;s perception of the &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; as &#8220;bad guys&#8221; merely gives him a rationalization to avoid listening to them, giving him an excuse to distrust them, even attempt to destroy them (cast them out of the dream). Rejecting their help keeps him firmly ensconced in his magical or fantasy think; running from the truth. He avoids conflict with those he feels he let down, delaying his point of confrontation of the pain as long as possible, forever if need be. Only when <u>they</u> begin to wear away <u>his</u> defenses does he start fighting back, reacting to their interference.<br /><br />Even the term &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; has multiple potential meanings: First, in the story as we read it, they&#8217;ve &#8220;forsaken&#8221; the Light, going over to the dark side. Second, as real people outside the delusion, they&#8217;ve forsaken his trust by attempting to interfere with his self-punishment, no letting him stay in his perpetual guilt trip thereby earning his enmity. Third, they are people he has forsaken, thrusting them aside in his determination to isolate himself from the truth; those he is avoiding because he cannot stand the chance of losing their respect and admiration if they come to understand his crime(s).<br /><br />The &#8220;Forsaken&#8221;, these horribly misunderstood and misrepresented friends, colleagues, loved ones, and medical professionals are working desperately to save LTT&#8217;s mind and body, to return him to them as whole and hale as can be. But they have worked for who knows how long, laboring at their task like Hercules, trying to find an angle to lever LTT out of his personal mental prison.<br /><br />Whether the milieu of the Wheel of Time is LTT&#8217;s sole development &#8211; a backdrop to play out his guilt complex and look for absolution through death &#8211; or whether it is a sort of virtual reality generated by the treatment team as a vehicle for guiding LTT out of his loop, or even a mix of the two, we might never know. Either way, the whole concept of the Wheel &#8211; and everything that follows with it &#8211; isn&#8217;t real. It&#8217;s an illusion, a hallucination&#8230; a psychotic delusion&#8230; a dream&#8230; played out purely within the mind of one deranged man. And the Dark Lord is LTT&#8217;s perception of himself as connected to some horrible act that he cannot live with, but cannot atone for other than with death &#8230; and the treatment team is keeping him alive in their attempt to heal him.<br /><br />What do we get if they succeed? Well, RJ has stated in several instances that he could have written the final scene(s) of the story before he ever began writing the beginning. He knew the real secret, and used every wile at his command, every verbal sleight-of-hand, every bit of misdirection and literary obfuscation possible to trap us in an Aes Sedai-like misperception. Jordan was very much like his Aes Sedai; they never lie outright, but the truth one hears is frequently not the one they speak, merely what they intended one to hear, for their own aims.<br /><br />Jordan may have gulled us all&#8230;<br /><br />If this concept is accurate I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised that, in the end, our final scene may well be very Wizard of Ozish, with LTT &#8211; like Dorothy -- opening his eyes to find himself surrounded by the &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; &#8211; all of them terribly concerned for him, and  greatly relieved that he&#8217;s awake and doing ok.<br /><br />Before you blow it off completely, think about the concepts and I think you&#8217;ll be able to come up with even more parallels, more metaphors and allegories, more detailed pieces of the puzzle that fit together with a seamlessness that will continue to astound everyone for years to come.<br /><br />Here&#8217;s one: ta&#8217;veren, used to correct &#8220;drifts in the pattern&#8221; (weakening of his resolve, his plan of self-punishment), to ensure that the weaving remains inviolate&#8230; to keep the DO (the part of him responsible for some horrible act he cannot live with) imprisoned, to keep LTT trapped in his own mind, to resist and avoid all attempts at making him confront reality and shatter his psychotic loop (the Wheel) with his return to sanity.<br /><br />Here&#8217;s a second: The seven seals are metaphors or symbols for the seven stages of coping. As the story progresses, the seals weaken one by one (LTT progresses through the stages towards resolution) and everyone becomes intensely aware that the DO is about to &#8220;break free&#8221; and destroy the world. This would be the equivalent of the surgery team&#8217;s progress success; they&#8217;re healing him &#8211; but if all seven &#8220;seals&#8221; break, the DO is loosed, LTT has progressed all the way through the stages and the psychotic loop and the Wheel is broken forever. &#8220;Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished,&#8221; at least from one perspective.<br /><br />Here&#8217;s a third: The Wheel can be a symbol for something else as well&#8230; the Catherin Wheel, a medieval torture device.<br /><br />&#8220;The Catherine Wheel was a product of the middle ages, especially popular in Germany. The victim's limbs were crushed with blunt objects. His (or her) still-living remains were subjected to the wheel. This meant the mangled arms and legs were threaded through the spokes. The wheel was then hoisted into the air using a long pole. Hungry vultures and crows picked at the body. Death came slowly.&#8221;<br /><i>The History of Violence</i><br />(http://home.comcast.net/~burokerl/catherine_wheel.htm)<br /><br />LTT&#8217;s demand for self punishment is exhibited by his attaching himself, at least mentally, to an infamous torture device designed to wring nearly the maximum amount of pain, suffering, and punishment possible. It&#8217;s excruciatingly simple yet effective.<br /><br />This could go on and on&#8230; volumes could be written on the similes, metaphors, allegories, and symbols used to portray, yet simultaneously mask, this entire conceptual and perceptual maze.<br /><br />For LTT to be healed, the DO has to break free &#8211; the two acts are one in the same.<br />LTT will have to confront his guilt, the &#8220;Wheel&#8221; is broken and the psychotic loop stops. The Forsaken are those most determinedly trying to help him, but in his determination to punish himself LTT has to view them as the ultimate bad guys, the antagonists who won&#8217;t let him wallow in self-pity, or perhaps even die to expiate his perceived guilt.<br /><br />We have several instances of &#8220;writings&#8221; from after the 3rd age. They are couched form within the milieu of the story, therefore from within LTT&#8217;s psychosis. These are either; a) signs that the Dragon wins Tarmon Gai&#8217;don and the DO is resealed &#8211; LTT&#8217;s psychosis remains intact and the cycle beings again, or b) Jordan committed more sleight of hand by presenting us with bogus information designed to mislead us. Either way it&#8217;s very slick.<br /><br />Finally, we&#8217;ve been given the idea that working with the One Power requires discipline and that the <u>stronger the practitioner, the more powerful their will</u>. LTT, by what we&#8217;ve been told, was <u>the strongest practitioner ever</u>, therefore the person with <u>the strongest will ever</u>. If he&#8217;s absolutely determined to continue his self-flagellation, to keep himself locked in a mental prison of his own making, the team might never succeed. And the Wheel will continue to turn&#8230;<br /><br />ROFLMAO<br /><br />Flame on.<br /></p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> *blinks* I'm mostly astounded by the amount of work you put into a theory that you obviously don't take seriously. While all your points and evidence seem to hold together, somehow I doubt that this is how WoT works. It's totally preposterous. Which is why it is entirely possible that you are, in fact, 100% correct. <br /><br /><br />Nah. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Nice work though!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2008-12-30 05:37:14
subject: Taveren must die
body:
<p>This one&#8217;s a bit loose, but then it was whipped together pretty quickly under less than optimum circumstances. Hope it gets some brain cells clicking, though.<br /><br />The Pattern seems to have a way of dealing with ta&#8217;veren when it is done with them &#8211; when their job is finished and their ta&#8217;verenness, their ability to alter the warp and/or woof of the threads of the Pattern, becomes more liability than asset: Death.<br /><br />Mabriam en Shereed, Queen of Aramaelle and Aes Sedai of the Gray Ajah: Instrumental in founding the Compact of Ten Nations (FoH, Ch 3). We have no good information on when she died, but I would believe that it was a short time after the Compact was established. Here&#8217;s why:<br /><br />Artur Hawkwing: His role as ta&#8217;veren was essentially complete when he sent his armies overseas. He died about two years later, still prosecuting his siege of Tar Valon, refusing Aes Sedai healing. His dislike for Aes Sedai was part of his ta&#8217;verenness. But&#8230;his sending the armies overseas was the real reason for his existence &#8211; so they could become the Seanchan and return to Randland at the appointed time, at the appointed place, etc. Everything Hawkwing had done up to sending those forces overseas was designed to put him in the position to have the resources to do so. With that goal accomplished, Hawkwing wasn&#8217;t needed any more and the Wheel wove him out of the pattern having already made sure he had the proper attitude to refuse Healing and die. The time from his sending the armies overseas to his death is ~2 years.<br /><br />Janduin: Of the Iron Mountain Sept, Janduin was clan chief of the Taaradad Aiel and Rand&#8217;s biological father. He was the youngest clan chief in memory and had a way about him that made people listen and follow (SR, Ch 34). He led four Aiel clans over the Dragonwall to punish Laman. Under his leadership, they spent some two+ years fighting to get to Laman. Upon Laman&#8217;s death (and Rand&#8217;s birth), Janduin leads the Aiel &#8220;in retreat&#8221; back to the Waste. Talking with the Wise Ones outside Rhuidean while discovering his family roots, Rand finds out that Janduin, after returning to the Waste, inexplicably goes to the Blight where he is killed by &#8220;a man who resembled Shaiel&#8221; (SR, Ch 34). These are obviously references to &#8220;Slayer&#8221; in his Luc guise and Tigraine. Also, reference LogainReborn&#8217;s theory: &#8220;Artur Hawkwing was Janduin, Rand&#8217;s Father&#8221; for further references and insight as to why Janduin might be ta&#8217;veren.<br /><br />He rose to power at a suspiciously young age, got unusually large numbers of notoriously fractious Aiel to band together, and keep them together for at least two years, under adverse conditions (reference everything written about Aiel reaction to the Wetlands). His ability to make people listen and to make them follow him, is classic ta&#8217;verenness; his background and history all but screams ta&#8217;veren.<br /><br />The Aiel War gave the Aiel the excuse to come west so Tigraine could birth Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount. The fact that it brought about Laman&#8217;s death to set things up for Rand&#8217;s Cairhien visit years later is secondary. I would almost be willing to bet that whether Laman died or not it could well be that the moment Rand was born, Janduin might have called the attack off... doubtful, admittedly, but possible. Rand&#8217;s birth completed Janduin&#8217;s most important role, not necessarily Laman&#8217;s death. Once Rand was born, the Wheel no longer needed Janduin or his ta&#8217;verenness. When he finished murdering one of his son&#8217;s grandfathers, the Wheel wove him out of the pattern by sending him off to die &#8211; at the hands of his brother-in-law. Very ironic.<br /><br />If Janduin were, indeed, ta&#8217;veren it helps confirm the suspicion that the Wheel gets rid of these &#8220;agents of change&#8221; when it is finished with them; when their &#8220;gift&#8221; becomes more liability than asset. Janduin, because of his ta&#8217;verenness, was apparently on the path to uniting all the Aiel clans. He had already managed to get four ready to follow his orders at the drop of a tree! If he had lived, his ta&#8217;verenness might have united all the Aiel by the time Rand came to adulthood (~20 years), effectively making Janduin Car&#8217;a&#8217;carn and leaving Rand nothing to do in the Waste. This would be in gross violation of Aiel prophecy concerning the qualifications of the Car&#8217;a&#8217;carn and could not be allowed. The time between Rand&#8217;s birth and Janduin&#8217;s death isn&#8217;t certain but the inferences suggest it didn&#8217;t take long &#8211; perhaps a year or two, very similar to Hawkwing&#8217;s limited life-span after he completed his mission and died his ironic death.<br /><br />If Shereed were indeed ta&#8217;veren, I doubt her life expectancy exceeded that of either Hawkwing or Janduin by very much (if any).<br /><br />For the truly spectacular, Age-ending, ta&#8217;veren (Rand, Perrin, Mat) to survive in the atmosphere that must exist for them to be needed so badly, someone has to play the guardian role that keeps them alive long enough to do what they must do; to shift the convoluted Web of Destiny into a shape that can be survived; be ta&#8217;veren too, though less powerfully, less obviously&#8230;just long enough&#8230; Isn&#8217;t that Moiraine&#8217;s primary, even self admitted, role? We won&#8217;t go in depth into why Moiraine might also be ta&#8217;veren. But&#8230; her removal from the timeline less than two years after rescuing The Boys is any indication &#8211; <br /><br />&#8220;Home. Emond&#8217;s Field. The last place that she had really felt safe. More than a year and a half had passed since she last saw it, yet everything seemed as she remembered.&#8220; (Egwene&#8217;s pov in Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, FoH, Ch 25)<br /><br />then some serious analysis needs to be done on that possibility.<br /><br />Whether Moiraine is ta&#8217;veren or not, if the ta&#8217;veren liability concept is reasonably accurate, there are some issues that must be examined. Rand is already convinced he&#8217;s going to die. I&#8217;m not yet totally convinced either way but&#8230;he may well be right, not only is he right about himself, but Mat and Perrin, who are also seriously ta&#8217;veren, will have to be woven out of the Pattern eventually, too.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-01-10 23:48:34
subject: Fireflies of Doom
body:
<p>Jordan rarely (if ever) does anything randomly and we all know that similarities of reference almost always have a connection. I suggest the reader review <b>glau-dm&#8217;s</b> <a href="http://www.wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1449&amp;Category=Wanderer" target="_blank">Reality, Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, and winning Tarmon Gai&#8217;don</a> It&#8217;s an excellent idea and this one seems to connect to it fairly strongly.<br /><br />I checked this out and couldn't find much on the subject here in the theories, so I hope I'm not being too pedantic. I think it&#8217;s been fairly obvious that Egwene and Min have had a common vision about <i>Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod</i>, but don&#8217;t know it&#8230; first because they see it from totally different perspectives, and second because they don&#8217;t compare notes about it (deliberate on RJ&#8217;s part, no doubt) -- despite the fact that they <b>have</b> had opportunity. These shared visions concern a large number of &#8220;fireflies&#8221;, or &#8220;sparks&#8221;.<br /><br />Min&#8217;s perspective is the first we see as far back as Baerlon in EotW. Her viewings are told mostly to Rand, however much they may pertain to others &#8211; and the further into the story we get the more directly she focuses her comments on it to Rand alone. In the body of the below quotes, I&#8217;ve emphasized certain words or word roots just to make them stand out so we can see them more easily:<blockquote>&#8220;<b>Sparks</b> <b>swirling</b> around you, <u>thousands of them</u>, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. The <b>sparks</b> are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the <b>sparks</b>.&#8221; (<b>EotW</b>, Ch 15, <i>Strangers and Friends</i>, p. 215 )</blockquote>and<blockquote>&#8221;Yesterday I couldn&#8217;t see <b>sparks</b> without at least three or four of you together, but today it&#8217;s all sharper, and more furious.&#8221; (<b>EotW</b>, Ch 16, <i>The Wisdom</i>, p. 231 )</blockquote>Much later we get:<blockquote>&#8220;Countless <u>thousands</u> of <b>spark</b>ling <b>lights</b>, like <b>stars</b> or <b>fireflies</b>, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed. There seemed to be more <b>lights</b> than ever before, but the darkness swallowed them at a greater rate too.&#8221; (<b>LoC</b>, CH 41, <i>A Threat</i> p.740 )</blockquote>Egwene&#8217;s perspective is from her Dreamwalk teachings with the Aiel Wise Ones in <i>Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod</i>:<blockquote>&#8220;All around her in the blackness, <b>fireflies</b> seemingly twinkled, a vast horde fading away into unimaginable distance. Those were dreams, dreams of the Aiel in the camp, dreams of men and women across Cairhien, across the world, all <b>glittering</b> there.&#8221; (<b>FoH</b>, Ch 25, <i>Dreams of Galad</i>, p.428 )</blockquote><blockquote>&#8220;Those flickering <b>lights</b> were dreams, <b>all the dreams of all the people of the world</b>. Of all worlds, places that were not quite the world she knew, worlds nothing like it at all.&#8221;</blockquote>then down the page<blockquote>&#8220;Each <b>light</b> looked identical to every other, yet she had learned to recognize a handful. How exactly, she did not know, a thing that irked her no end. Even the Wise Ones did not know that. Still, once she identified which dream belonged to which person, she could find that person&#8217;s dreams again like an arrow to the target, no matter if they went to the other side of the world.&#8221; (<b>Loc</b>, Ch 14, <i>Dreams and Nightmares</i>, p. 341)</blockquote>later still we have<blockquote>&#8220;Slowly she moved closer through everlasting darkness, though once again it seemed that she stayed still and the <b>pinpoint</b> of flight grew&#8230;&#8221; (<b>CoS</b>, Ch 10, <i>Unseen Eyes</i>, p. 230)</blockquote><blockquote>&#8220;&#8230;bodiless, she floated in an endless blackness, surrounded by an endless sea of <b>lights</b>, an immense <b>swirl</b> of tiny <b>pinpoints</b> <b>glittering</b> more sharply than <b>stars</b> on the clearest night, more numerous than the <b>stars</b>. Those were the dreams of all the people in the world, of people in all the worlds that were or could be, worlds so strange she could not begin to comprehend them, all visible here in the tiny gap between <i>Tel&#8217;Aran&#8217;Rhiod</i> and waking, the infinite space between reality and dreams.&#8221; (<b>CoT</b>, Ch 20, <i>In the Night</i>, p 585-586)</blockquote>Admittedly there are a limited number of words RJ could use to describe the mental picture he&#8217;s trying to paint in each scene, so some commonality of word usage is to be expected&#8230; but the prevalence with which certain specific words are used, and a constancy in the way in which they are used, seems to indicate a level of deliberation. He uses words like &#8220;spark&#8221;, &#8220;firefly&#8221;, and &#8220;swirl&#8221; on a background of immense darkness to set the basic scene. He impresses us with how unimaginably large the numbers of them are. He connects in the idea that these are in fact dreams, &#8220;&#8230;the dreams of all the people in the world, of people in all the worlds that were or could be&#8230;&#8221;<br /><br />It seems obvious to me that both characters are seeing the same thing: a specific part of <i>Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod</i> &#8211; the &quot;the tiny gap between <i>Tel&#8217;Aran&#8217;Rhiod</i> and waking, the infinite space between reality and dreams&quot;. Egwene sees it as it is while she is in it. Min sees the threat to it &#8211; what might happen or be. Perhaps one of the most interesting passages comes when Min is viewing Perrin and Rand together. She sees:<blockquote>&#8220;When you two were together, I saw those <b>fireflies</b> and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the <b>fireflies</b> were <u>holding their own</u> instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone.&#8221; (<b>LoC</b>, Ch 46, <i>Beyond the Gate</i>, p.813 )</blockquote>From this we know that just one <i>ta&#8217;veren</i>, even one as strong as Rand, is insufficient to the task of saving the dreams/souls of <b>all</b> the people of <b>all</b> the worlds. Two of them (at least Rand + Perrin) are enough to put the conflict into balance, the outcome uncertain. That balance might or might not hold. Given time &#8211; and the DO&#8217;s directive &#8220;let the Lord of Chaos rule&#8221; &#8211; it is possible that further chaos could eventually get the better of these two <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> and begin &#8220;winning&#8221; again; that the level of chaos produced might eventually exceed even the ability of two very strong <i>ta'veren</i> to correct. This is why a third <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> (Mat) is needed. All three must work together to get the job done; only three can stabilize the chaos, correct the pattern drift and end the Age the way it is supposed to end &#8211; no DO breakout.<br /><br />What are your thoughts on this?<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-01-11 00:13:17
subject: When Morgase met Tam
body:
<p>Rereading the stories recently, I was reminded of earlier curiosity of this issue of when Morgase had heard &#8220;Two Rivers speech&#8221; and from whom she might have heard it. Reading this board, I found very little credible information about this idea. So, I decided to write it up. One previous attempt was never posted, so I retooled, spiffed it up, and hereby re-submit for further consideration.<br /><br />Source materials include paperback editions of the main WoT books, a hardback edition of <i>New Spring</i>, <i>The World of Robert Jordan&#8217;s Wheel of Time</i> (also called <i>The Guide</i>), and the Encyclopedia-WoT.org.<br /><br />To determine if and when Tam and Morgase may have met, we must first determine some specific information about each such as age and geographic locations on a timeline.<br /><br />We begin with Tam&#8230;<blockquote>His sun-roughened <u>cheeks might be lined</u> and his hair have only <u>a sprinkling of black among the gray</u>, but there was a solidness to him&#8230;<br />(Rand&#8217;s POV, <i>tEotW</i>, Ch 1, <i>An Empty Road</i>, p. 2 )</blockquote>and,<blockquote>Tam al&#8217;Thor was still a blocky man who looked ready to work from sunup to sundown without slacking, but the hair on his head had <u>gone completely gray</u> since Perrin had seen him last, and he had <u>a few more lines</u> on his bluff face. (Perrin&#8217;s POV, <i>KoD</i>, Ch 29, <i>The Last Knot</i>, p. 693 )</blockquote>These descriptions indicate a man somewhere in late &#8220;middle-age.&#8221; To see if this is accurate we must see if we can determine how old he was when he left the 2R. We do not know the exact year of his birth, nor the exact year he left Emond&#8217;s Field, but we can estimate pretty closely.<blockquote>&#8220;Tam al&#8217;Thor ran away seeking adventures when he was <u>a boy no older than you</u>. I can just remember when he came back to Emond&#8217;s Field, a grown man with a red-headed, outlander wife and a babe in swaddling clothes.&#8221; (Nynaeve to Rand, <i>tEotW</i>, Ch 16, <i>The Wisdom</i>, p. 240 )</blockquote>Rand was born in 978 NE, making him ~19 when <i>tEotW</i> began. If Tam left Emond&#8217;s Field when &#8220;no older&#8221; than Rand, then Tam was then no more than 19 at that time. Nynaeve&#8217;s statement itself, however needs some verification; was she old enough to have witnessed Tam&#8217;s return to Emond&#8217;s Field? In Lord of Chaos, Nynaeve is in Ebou Dar speaking with Queen Tylin, who questions whether Nynaeve is old enough to be Aes Sedai.<blockquote>&#8220;Twenty-six!&#8221; Nynaeve snapped. With a good part of the Women&#8217;s Circle back in Emond&#8217;s Field thinking she was too young to be Wisdom, it had become habit with her to flourish every naming day she could claim. &#8220;I am twenty-six and an Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah.&#8221; (Nynaeve&#8217;s POV, <i>LoC</i>, Ch 48, <i>Leaning on the Knife</i>, p. 846 )</blockquote>This portion of the story occurred in the winter of the year 1,000 NE. At age 26, that would mean Nynaeve was born ~974 and was two years old when the Aiel War broke out. She would have been ~4-5 years old at the time of Rand&#8217;s birth in late 978 NE, and if Tam brought Rand home by Rand&#8217;s 1st birthday, Nynaeve would have been ~5-6 when Tam returned. That would be about right to &#8220;just remember&#8221; the kind of excitement Tam&#8217;s return would have generated in such a staid place as the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Nynaeve&#8217;s statement leaves a loop-hole, though. She says Tam was &#8220;no older&#8221; than Rand when he went adventuring; he could have been younger. If so, by how much we can only guess. The tone of the reference implies strongly that there was little difference. As we&#8217;re given no anecdotes about anyone chasing after Tam to bring him home because he was too young to be out on his own, I would suggest it safe to assume Tam was an adult by 2R standards when he left. As conservative as Emond&#8217;s Field seems to be, I would estimate that to be about 17-18 years of age at the youngest. This would be consistent with Nynaeve&#8217;s statement about Tam&#8217;s apparent age when he left.<blockquote>Tam al&#8217;Thor left the Two Rivers as a boy, Mother. He joined the army of Illian, and served in the Whitecloak War and the last two wars with Tear. In time he rose to be a blademaster and the Second Captain of the Companions. After the Aiel War, Tam al&#8217;Thor <u>returned to the Two Rivers with a wife from Caemlyn</u> and an infant boy. It would have saved much, had I known this earlier, but I know it now.&#8221; (Moiraine to Siuan, <i>tGH</i>, Ch 8, <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>, p. 124 )</blockquote>*NOTE on the Companions:<blockquote> &#8220;Though Illian&#8217;s military might is formidable, its finest soldiers are those within the <u>elite unit</u> called the Illianer Companions. These <u>crack troops</u> traditionally <u>ride with the commanding general</u> during any military action, to be deployed wherever their extraordinary abilities are needed, <u>usually in the hottest fighting</u>.&#8221; (<i>Guide</i>, p. 280 )</blockquote>Tam joined the army of Illian and fought in the Whitecloak War which occurred during the calendar year of 957 NE. If we presume he was 20 when that war broke out (giving him time to travel, enter the Illian military and finish &#8220;boot camp&#8221; first), he would have been born ~937.<br /><br />Born in 937 NE, Tam would have been ~41 at the end of the Aiel War in 978 NE. By the beginning of <i>tEotW</i> (spring 998 NE), Tam would be ~60. The above references to hair color and other signs of advancing age (about 2 years pass between <i>tEotW</i> and <i>KoD</i>), seem consistent with this estimation. We may never know for sure, but this estimation seems close enough for present purposes. Our margin of error should be no more than about two years either way.<br /><br />Next we examine information regarding Morgase.<br /><br />When speaking to Rand in <i>tEotW</i>, Morgase admits to having heard 2R speech in her youth:<blockquote>&#8220;I will give you justice then, Rand al&#8217;Thor,&#8221; she said. &#8220;First, because I have the advantage of Elaida and Gareth in having <u>heard Two Rivers speech when I was young</u>. You have not the look, but if a <u>dim memory</u> can serve me you have the <u>Two Rivers on your tongue</u>.&#8221; (Morgase to Rand, <i>tEotW</i>, Ch 40, <i>The Web Tightens</i>, p. 615).</blockquote>Through the story, it is stated in numerous instances, by various characters, that the 2R hasn&#8217;t seen even a tax collector in some time. Most specifically &#8211; <blockquote>&#8220;My child, you should pay more heed to those books. The Two Rivers has not seen a tax collector in six generations, nor the Queen&#8217;s Guards in seven. I daresay they seldom even think to remember they are part of the Realm.&#8221; (Morgase to Elayne, <i>tEotW</i>, Ch 40, <i>The Web Tightens</i>, p. 613 )</blockquote>They certainly haven&#8217;t seen a Royal Progress recently. So, we know Morgase never went to the 2R. Also, I can find no information about any 2R inhabitants (other than Tam) leaving the 2R between Tam&#8217;s departure from there and Moiraine&#8217;s arrival at Emond&#8217;s Field over four decades later. We&#8217;ll take this dearth of solid, positive indications as a confirmatory negative and say Tam was the only one. For Morgase to have heard the 2R speech, &#8220;accent&#8221;, or &#8220;tongue&#8221;, she had to have heard it from Tam. At some time the two of them must have been physically close enough for her to have heard him speak (and speak clearly), and heard him speak for a long enough time to be able to remember his specific regional dialect/accent when Rand shows up in her palace roughly two decades later, even if it is only a &#8220;dim memory.&#8221;<br /><br />How old is Morgase, and would the time of her meeting with Tam coincide with a period she might consider when she &#8220;was young&#8221;? Morgase departed for Tower training when she was 14.<blockquote>Taking down a portrait of herself at <u>fourteen</u>, a slender filly of a girl, she had worn that ivory silk dress the day she had gone to the White Tower, never dreaming at the time that she would be Queen&#8230; (Morgase&#8217;s Pov, <i>tFoH</i>, Ch 19, <i>Memories</i>, p. 351 )</blockquote>After Tigraine disappeared in 972 NE, she returns from the White Tower <u>before she is sixteen</u> to lay claim to the Lion Throne.<blockquote>&#8220;&#8230;not like the Succession, after <u>Tigraine died/&lt;u&gt;. It took&lt;u&gt; two years</u> before Morgase sat on the Lion Throne, then.&#8221; (Thom&#8217;s POV, <i>tDR</i>, Ch 47, <i>To Race the Shadow</i>, p. 546-547 )<br /> <br />But <u>short of her sixteenth nameday</u> she had returned to contest the Rose Crown in the name of House Trakand, and when she won the throne nearly <u>two years</u> later, the ring had been presented to her. (Morgase&#8217;s POV, <i>tFoH</i>, Ch 19, <i>Memories</i>, p. 351 )</blockquote>By reverse engineering these known dates, we find that Morgase&#8217;s birth was circa 957 NE, making her ~41-42 during her meeting with Rand in <i>tEotW</i>. Tam was fighting Whitecloaks that same year. That war started and ended in the same calendar year so Morgase would have been no more than age 1 when it finished. It is <u>very</u> unlikely an infant Morgase would have been anywhere near Murandy/Altara (the ~region where the Whitecloak War was fought), while that conflict was going on. Nor is it likely, even if the two <u>had</u> been physically close, that a one year old baby would remember Tam&#8217;s accent over 40 years later; that would be far more than a &#8220;dim memory.&#8221;<br /><br />Tam fought with Illian in two wars against Tear. Andor was buffered from the Whitecloak war by Murandy just as it was buffered from the conflicts between Tear and Illian. The war did not go to Morgase in Andor so to meet Tam she would have had to go to the war. Not likely.<blockquote>Absentmindedly she thumbed the Great Serpent ring on her left hand. She had not earned that, precisely; women who could not channel were not awarded the ring. But short of her sixteenth nameday she had returned to contest the Rose Crown in the name of House Trakand, and when she won the throne nearly two years later, the ring had been presented to her. By tradition, the Daughter-Heir of Andor always trained in the Tower, and was given the ring whether or not she could channel. She had only been heir to House Trakand in the Tower, but they gave it to her once the Rose Crown was on her head. (Morgase&#8217;s POV, <i>tFoH</i>, Ch 16, <i>Memories</i>, p. 351)</blockquote>Before going to Tar Valon, Morgase was not even Daughter Heir, Tigraine Mantear was. Losing Luc and Tigraine in a short period of time is often credited as the primary reason Queen Mordrellen died. Morgase had the best claim to the throne after Tigraine, so her family would never have allowed her near any foreign hostilities. Then, upon returning from Tar Valon, Morgase was too busy; all her attention was given to securing the throne.<br /><br />Morgase returned to from Tar Valon to Caemlyn in 972 NE before she was 16, after the disappearance of Tigraine. The Succession War lasted approximately two years, finishing in ~974, when Morgase ~18. The Aiel War ended in 978 NE, making her ~22. Somewhere during the Aiel War Morgase <u>may</u> have heard Tam speak. However, that would require Tam&#8217;s unit (the famous Illianer Companions) being in or very near Caemlyn for a period of time while the fighting was rolling across the map.<br /><br />Though the Aiel did spend some time in Andor;<blockquote>They had burned the great city of Cairhien, ravaged the nation of Cairhien and, in the two years since, had fought through Tear and <u>then Andor</u> before reaching these killing fields, outside the huge island city of Tar Valon.&#8221; (Lan&#8217;s POV. <i>NS</i>, Ch 1, <i>The Hook</i>, p. 15 )</blockquote>I cannot find any reference that <u>specifically</u> indicates the fighting actually reached Caemlyn. Yes, a direct line of travel from Tear to Tar Valon would go very near Caemlyn, but as no specific mention is made of such occurring, we cannot take it as fact. The Companions were &#8220;usually in the hottest fighting&#8221;, so if the Aiel did not go near Caemlyn, it is doubtful the Companions did either. It is possible, but doubtful. In 998 NE, approximately 19-20 years later, Rand ends up in Morgase&#8217;s palace. Morgase would have been ~40-42. From that perspective, age ~21 <u>certainly</u> qualifies as &#8220;young&#8221;, but this is only a &#8220;maybe&#8221; regarding when the two met.<br /><br />There is one final period of time to consider; the post-Aiel War period. And, we must return to Tam&#8217;s timeline to look for more information. The women of the 2R never did convince Tam to remarry. His professional credentials demonstrate strongly that he was a very dedicated military man. A man with such an active military career, especially one involving as much travel as Tam&#8217;s apparently did, does not find it easy to settle down; to find (and keep) a wife. After the Aiel War seems a more realistic time for Tam to have met the woman he married; Kari.<br /><br />What we know about Keri is very limited: She was red-haired <blockquote>&#8220;I can just remember when he came back to Emond&#8217;s Field, a grown man with a <u>red-headed</u>,  outlander wife&#8221; (Nynaeve to Rand, <i>tEotW</i>, Ch 16, <i>The Wisdom</i>, p. 240 );</blockquote>she had grey eyes<blockquote>Egwene stood there, and Nynaeve, pale and frightened, with flowers in their hair. And another woman, little older than the Wisdom, <u>gray-eyed</u> and beautiful&#8230;&#8221; (Rand&#8217;s POV, <i>tEotW</i>, Ch 51, <i>Against the Shadow</i>, p. 761 );</blockquote>and she was from Caemlyn <blockquote>&#8220;After the Aiel War, Tam al&#8217;Thor <u>returned to the Two Rivers with a wife from Caemlyn</u> and an infant boy.&#8221; (Moiraine to Siuan, POV <i>tGH</i>, Ch 8, <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>, p. 124 )</blockquote>Looking at a map of the area, when departing Tar Valon the Companion&#8217;s shortest path back to Illian from Tal Valon would taken them directly through Caemlyn. Accounts of how long it took various units to finish &#8220;chasing&#8221; the Aiel back across the Dragonwall are mixed, and no detailed account is given about which units withdrew when, nor is there solid info about how long the final dispersal took. The Gray Ajah made an attempt to preserve the &#8220;Grand Coalition&#8221; formed to fight the Aiel, but that attempt failed. Perhaps the Companions were involved with negotiations and delayed their return to Illian for some months, but&#8230;*shrug* One can bet that the news of the end of the war would have sparked celebrations and as an important part of that victory, a celebrated military unit like the Companions could hardly have been left out. There were sure to have been parties, dinners, speeches and awards ceremonies. Tam&#8217;s rank (Second Captain of the Companions) certainly qualified him for invitations to at least some of these events&#8230; opportunity to meet Morgase (shake a hand, get a medal, <u>make a speech(?)</u>, etc.). It might also have allowed some casual time to see some sights, meet some people&#8230; apparently enough to find a wife.<br /><br />This would have been a branching point in Tam&#8217;s life. He must have decided his career was pretty much done. He&#8217;d served Illian for 20+ years, fought in four wars, rose about as high up in command as he was going to get any time soon, and achieved status as a blademaster. Where could he go from there? What was his incentive to stay? Maybe he was just sick of bloodshed and wanted out. Either way, this stopover apparently saw him meet a young woman with whom he either fell in love, or who he decided could provide him a caretaker for that baby he now had. (Yes, I know, that sounds very sexist, but we don&#8217;t know enough about Tam or 2R customs or how those customs might have been influence by his experiences in Illian and elsewhere to really say it couldn&#8217;t happen that way.) Regardless, Tam left the Illian army and returned to the 2R, wife and &#8220;son&#8221; in tow.<br /><br />Summation: Morgase&#8217;s best opportunity to have heard Tam would have been in Caemlyn during Post-Aiel War celebrations. Until that time Morgase was either too young, or too involved with other activities to have traveled to anywhere Tam might have been. Tam&#8217;s activities during earlier times were too geographically separated from her and/or involved too much danger (war) for Morgase to risk personal involvement.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-01-17 01:49:32
subject: Cuttings of Hope to be healed
body:
<p>In book 4, The Shadow Rising, among a bunch of phrases from the Prophecies that Moiraine says that Rand has to fulfill is to &quot;heal the cutting of hope&quot; (in close proximity to this is mention of wounds of madness, but let's not go there...). Early on in the series, one might be inclined to take that this meant Sammael in some way, since he is one of 2 Forsaken with the word 'hope' in their names- the other is Ishy, and he was recently killed and no knowing he was coming back- however, as we have seen, Sammy is 'toast'. <br /><br />In retrospect and hindsight, I believe this means something else.<br /><br />I think it means Rand is to Heal Avendesora.<br /><br />There are several details in TSR alone to support this:<br />1) Avendesora ACTUALLY SHOWS UP!<br />2) During the flashback scenes to the AOL in the ter'angreal, we are introduced to <i>chora</i> trees.<br />3) Rand IDs Avendesora as a <i>chora</i>.<br />4) It is mentioned in earlier books that Avendesora has no seed (and by extension fruit), which made everyone wonder when they gave Avendoraldera to Cairhien (and implies that someone actually went to Rhuidean to do something other then become a Wise One or Chief, but let's not go there...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" />)<br />5) In the AOL flashbacks, the first Maiden (implied; don't know her name) makes mention of <i>chora</i> <b>cuttings</b>.<br /><br />I think <i>this</i> is the 'cutting of hope' Rand (or, possibly, someone working with him, or by his will,) is meant to heal when Moiraine uttered this line.</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> Interesting. Not sure I agree, mostly because I don't think your link between hope and Avendesora is very solid. Sadly, I have no better hypothesis, so there we go.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-01-18 05:11:24
subject: Language Snafu
body:
<p>I tried this one earlier and it got thrown out, so I&#8217;ve re-tooled a little and resubmitted.<br /><br />I think I may have found an instance where RJ actually made a mistake. I&#8217;m not slamming Jordan; not denigrating his work (and genius) but there&#8217;s a big SNAFU here and I think everyone needs to think about it.<br /><br />Languages change, usually slowly, sometimes rapidly. There are many reasons a language might change. One is interaction with other languages. If one group of people trades with another which speaks a different language, each will pick up words and phrases from the other at least for trade purposes.<br /><br />If a people are isolated on islands or mountain valleys, language can change slowly, but it still changes. For example, in the highlands of Papua New Guinea there are many languages, each different from the others. The same has happened in the Caucasus Mountains between Russia and Turkey and Iran.<br /><br />What RJ seems to have missed is that the language of the time of the AoL is so drastically different from that at the end of the 3rd Age, where the current story rests. &#8220;The Old Tongue&#8221; is barely spoken any more; few even among the nobility of the various nations can understand more than a smattering of phrases. Perhaps one of the biggest stumbling blocks Rand himself has in understanding the Karaethon Cycle is that translation from Old Tongue to colloquial Randlander is difficult and unreliable.<br /><br />This is all very well&#8230; the Old Tongue is difficult to learn and translate blah, blah, blah&#8230;<br /><br />But, how did the Forsaken learn colloquial Randlander? They&#8217;ve been in a temporal stasis for three thousand years! Yet, the instant they&#8217;re released from the Bore, they jump to various strategically vital locations on the map without being able to intelligently communicate with anyone but themselves, without knowing the geography or politics of the nations well enough to even understand where the strategically important places are, take up residence and begin manipulating politics, religion, finance, armies, etc., apparently not even noticing that the language spoken is radically different form the one they use.<br /><br />Our world equivalents would be ~1,000 B.C. where --<br />1) The Bronze Age was just ending, David was becoming King of the ancient Israelites, and those Israelites were still speaking a recognizable derivative of the ancient Hebrew they spoke during their captivity in Egypt;<br />2) The <i>precursors</i> to the Etruscans were just beginning migrations from west of the Danube into Italy (the Etruscans pre-dated the Romans);<br />3) The Phoenician alphabet was just being invented;<br />4) The &#8220;Zhou mo wang&#8221; Dynasty of China was just starting;<br />5) The Hungarian language was just separating itself from its linguistic relatives, the Ob-Ugric Languages.<br /><br />Pick any one of the above languages and ask yourself, &#8220;If someone who spoke this as a native birth language, and were time zapped three millennia into the future &#8211; our present day &#8211; could they pick up English, Japanese, Russian, French, German, Swahili, Arabic, or any other contemporary language in just a matter of weeks or a handful of months?&#8221; I don&#8217;t think so&#8230; But the Forsaken pick up modern Randlander in that timeframe; speak it like natives (even to the point of being able to imitate regional accents and dialects well enough to convince natives of the area that they&#8217;re locals), and don&#8217;t have to use the OP to do so &#8211; in other words they haven&#8217;t created a OP fueled &#8220;Universal Translator&#8221; which allows them to speak and understand modern Randlander, even if they would look like a cheap foreign dubbed movie with their mouths moving differently from the sounds they&#8217;re making... (think Michael Winslow from the Police Academy films &#8211; you know the sound effects guy?)<br /><br />Lews Therin might be forgiven his ability to speak Randlander. He&#8217;s not really dead, and <u>may</u> have been &#8220;conscious&#8221; to some degree the whole time. He <u>might</u> have watched the language change and learned it as it went along. Perhaps the fact that Rand only hears him in his head means that Rand is hearing his raw thoughts, irrespective of language. Even the Heroes of the Horn <u>might</u> have picked up the language along the way&#8230; perhaps some of them even helped make parts of it&#8230; but the Forsaken? There is absolutely no excuse for them all to be speaking the language as well as they do, in such a short time.<br /><br />It&#8217;s a classic blunder. Regardless whatever other bases RJ covered, he missed this one, big time. Intentional or accidental doesn&#8217;t matter, it&#8217;s a major flaw in the fabric of &#8220;believability&#8221; within the storyline.<br /><br />We see examples of this in many places.<br /><br />Nynaeve accompanies Birgitte to spy on the Forsaken in TAR. There are only three possibilities for her understanding what they&#8217;re staying:<blockquote><br />a.They&#8217;re speaking Old Tongue and Nynaeve speaks it like a pro and never lets anyone else know.<br />b.They&#8217;re speaking Randlander, even in private, just to get and stay in practice.<br />c.TAR is acting as a translator for everyone.<br />This third example seems outlandish as it doesn&#8217;t cover other instances where:</blockquote><br /><br />Aginor/Osan&#8217;gar/Dashiva speaks plainly to Rand and many others (while everyone is wide awake) in his affected &#8220;Borderlander&#8221; accent, and everyone believes he&#8217;s from the Borderlands. Nobody catches on.<br /><br />Balthemel/Aran&#8217;Gar/Halima Saranov speaks plainly to Egwene and many others (while everyone is wide awake) pulling off whatever regional accent/dialect her new body is supposed to be from. Nobody catches on.<br /><br />Graendel/Lady Basene of Arad Doman speaks plainly in fluent Domani style to everyone she&#8217;s around in that area, including the impressive Lord Ituralde &#8211; who supposedly has known the woman speaking to him for some time &#8211; (while everyone is wide awake) and no one catches on.<br /><br />The same goes for Lanfear, Mesaana (in the freaking White Tower where presumably EVERY accent in the land is represented and recognized), Moghedien, Rahvin in Andor, Sammael in Illian, Semirhage hiding out with the <b>Seanchan!!!</b>&#8230;<br /><br />Between them they&#8217;re speaking <u>at least</u> five different, distinct, recognizable accents/dialects of a single language they had never even heard until they were released from the Bore during or shortly after the events of tEotW. By the books&#8217; timeline, that was less then three years before the end of KoD. But they spoke these languages from almost the moment they were released! They didn&#8217;t spend time spying and learning, wandering around in pseudo-disguises getting their backsides whipped every time they made a mistake, learning the names of nations, customs and mores, history, who&#8217;s allied with who and why, etc., etc., etc. Nope, they just blast off from Shaol Ghul, start speaking in Tongues and do a good Pinky and the Brain imitation in their nefarious bid to &#8220;take over the world.&#8221; <br /><br />Either they&#8217;re all truly impressive linguists &#8211; every one of them with photographic memories &#8211; and the off-the-cuff way they accomplish this feat is indicative of just how really good (and scary) they are, or it&#8217;s a hitch in Jordan&#8217;s concept that he didn&#8217;t close.<br /><br />Comments?<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-01-22 00:22:11
subject: The AoL is was a Dystopia
body:
<p>Source materials include (well worn) paperback copies of the WoT novels from NS to KoD, the Guide, COT-WOTFAQ v7.0 Jan 2004, Encyclopedia-Wot.org, and various RJ Q&amp;A sessions such as the CNN phone chat, RJ&#8217;s responses to fan letters, etc. I also used Wikipedia, Webster&#8217;s New World Dictionary (2002), the Oxford English Dictionary (2000), and the Encyclopedia Britannica (2004). In other words, everything I could get my hands on. Some of these sources are used heavily here without other specific notation or credit to them; this is the only notice given. Some statements were even copied word for word to maintain contextual integrity (because I couldn&#8217;t say it better myself, lol).<br /><br />The word &#8220;dystopia&#8221; actually has two basic definitions. The first is the most classic or original definition: a society that is the opposite of utopia; one in which the conditions of life are characterized by human misery, poverty, oppression, violence, disease, and/or pollution. The second is more commonly used in literature, particularly fiction, most particularly in futurist science fiction &#8211; an anti-Utopia or counter-Utopia which: <u>appears to be utopian or was intended to be so</u>, but a <u>fatal flaw or other factor</u> has destroyed or twisted the intended utopian world or concept.<br /><br />The Forsaken themselves make multiple allusions to conditions in the AoL prior to and during the War of Power which dispel any thought of the first definition applying. But, the most comprehensive view we get is when Rand walks the crystal columns in Rhuidean, etc. Since the concept of the AoL being dystopic might make some people&#8217;s mental gears grind let&#8217;s look at what typifies an anti- or counter-Utopia to see if we see enough of those ingredients in the AoL to agree with the theory.<br /><br />There are many classic works of dystopic fiction to draw on for examples. Among them are works by Kurt Vonnegut (<i>Harrison Bergeron</i>, <i>Piano Player</i>), Ray Bradbury (<i>Fahrenheit 45</i>), George Orwell (<i>1984</i>, <i>Animal Farm</i>), Aldus Huxley (<i>Brave New World</i>), Ayn Rand (<i>Anthem</i>, <i>Atlas Shrugged</i>, <i>The Fountainhead</i>), Lois Lowry (<i>The Giver</i>), Henry Kuttner (<i>The Iron Standard</i> [short story]), Philip Jose Farmer (<i>Ride of the Purple Wage</i>), and almost everything written by Phillip K. Dick. We also have movies like <i>The Matrix</i>, <i>V</i>, etc. The list is actually quite long. Note* If I didn&#8217;t list a particular film it might well be because it I was trying to avoid redundancy. It was probably based off of an already listed author&#8217;s written work &#8211; example: <i>Bladerunner</i> was based off the Philip K. Dick story <i>Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?</i>...<br /><br />Depictions of what constitutes a dystopia vary, I won&#8217;t enumerate every variant; the only things we need look at are the kinds that are similar to what we know of the AoL. The general areas to examine follow:<br /><br /><b>Society</b>: In less commonly depicted social groups, <u>independent religions are notable by their absence</u>. As RJ has told us, the only religion he allows in his stories is one where there is no need for faith and its trappings, such as priests, churches, etc. The population is all aware that the Creator is real, the DO is real and they see the works of both daily. They believe. As expressed in the FAQ:<blockquote>&#8220;&#8230;in Randland, the Creator <i>is</i> The DO <i>is</i>. No one disbelieves in their existence; they are <i>there</i>. They are far more concrete and present in everyday life than our God(s) is/are in our lives. If you cross the Blight to Shayol Ghul, you will find a mountain with a hole in its side and evil leaking out. Thus, many of the rituals and other trappings of <i>organized</i> religion are unnecessary in Randland.&#8221; [COT-WOTFAQ, Sec. 2.7.4, <i>Is There Religion in Randland? </i>, p. 167]</blockquote>The FAQ follows this with Jordan&#8217;s own words on the subject:<blockquote>&#8220;This is a world where what might be called the proofs of religion are self-evident all the time. It seemed to me there was no necessity for the trappings of religion which by and large are to reinforce us in our faith&#8230; and to convince others&#8230; If your beliefs are made concrete and manifest around you at any given time there is not the need for that.&#8221; [COT-WOTFAQ, Sec. 2.7.4, <i>Is There Religion in Randland? </i>,, p. 167]</blockquote>The state may take the form of a personality cult with quasi-religious rituals about a central figure, <b>or</b> take the form of an oligarchy of some sort, such as Big Brother in <i>1984</i>. Let us examine the definition of &#8220;oligarchy&#8221;.<br /><br /><b>Oligarchy</b>: A form of government where political power effectively rests with a <i>small elite segment of society</i> distinguished by royalty, wealth, family, military powers or <i>occult spiritual hegemony</i>. Aes Sedai comprise roughly 3% of the population [RJ per Tor website Q&amp;A] and exhibit powers which are, according to sanctioned dogma, &#8220;the power of God&#8221;. That would certainly make them part of a &#8220;small elite segment of society&#8221; distinguished by &#8220;occult spiritual hegemony&#8221;. Hegemony is defines as: domination, control, supremacy, dominion, power, authority, subjugation. <br /><br />So, how does this apply? Again, the FAQ supplies us with insight:<blockquote>&#8220;This does not even begin to touch on the <i>religious aspects of the Aes Sedai</i>. They have <i>novices (like nuns) </i>, they are considered to be &#8220;servants of all&#8221; and the <i>rituals of acceptance and joining the sisterhood are rigid with many religious overtones</i>. They are expected to serve the Light and the will of the Creator when they join the Aes Sedai. They are almost Buddhist in certain ways: in particular the view of the time serpent, the wheel of time and the age lace.</blockquote>It seems that either way we can fit this aspect of the AoL into the definition. Either they have a &#8220;cult of personality&#8221; with &#8220;quasi-religious rituals about a central figure&#8221; <b>or</b> the Aes Sedai of the time themselves qualify as an &#8220;elite segment of the society distinguished by occult spiritual hegemony&#8221;. <b>Or both</b>. AoL seems to qualify as an Oligarchy, so the &#8220;society&#8221; type matches.<br /><br /><b>Nature</b>: The society frequently isolates the characters from all contact with the natural world. Dystopias are <u>commonly urban</u>, and <u>generally avoid nature</u>, as when walks are regarded as dangerously anti-social as in Ray Bradbury's <i>Fahrenheit 451</i>. With <i>Brave New World</i>, the lower classes of society are actively conditioned to be afraid of nature.<br /><br />This seems, at least at first blush, non-applicable to the AoL. But on closer examination we might have hit the nail fairly squarely. The &#8220;thinness&#8221; where the Bore was located was at Shayol Ghul described as<blockquote>&#8220;an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the <i>rustic</i>.&#8221; [Demandred&#8217;s POV, LoC, Prologue, p. 1]</blockquote>Though far from definitive, the context could easily be construed to suggest that the &#8220;rustic&#8221; life was not broadly popular; it appealed to or was partaken of by a limited minority. Additionally, the few descriptions we get of the AoL prior to the Aiel wanderings (the last three scene&#8217;s in Rand&#8217;s trip through the crystal column in Rhuidean) show;<br /><br />1) &#8220;Jonai hurried down the empty streets, trying no to look at shattered buildings and dead chora trees. All dead. At least the last of the long abandoned jo-cars had been hauled away. Aftershocks still troubled the ground beneath his feet. He wore his work cloths, his cadin&#8217;sor, of course, though the work he had been given was nothing he had been trained for. &#8220; [tSR, Ch 26, The Dedicated, pp. 427-431] <br /><br />2) &#8220;Coumin knelt at the edge of the plowed ground in his working cloths, plain brownish gray coat and breeches and soft laced boots, in a line with others like him that surrounded the field, then men of the Da&#8217;shain Aiel at twice stretched-arms length and then an Ogier, all the way around&#8230;Coumin was surprised to see that the townspeople were gone, but he had no time to wonder where they had gone or why&#8230;.It was then that he saw the soldier, only a few steps away, watching them.&#8221; [tSR, Ch 26, The Dedicated, pp. 431-435]<br /><br /><br />3) &#8220;Charn made his way down the side of the wide, crowded street beneath the spreading chora trees, their trefoil leaves spreading peace and contentment in the shadows of silvery buildings that touched the sky. A city without choras would seem bleak as wilderness.&#8221; [tSR, Ch 26, The Dedicated, pp. 435-437]<br /><br />(Please, read the whole of each scene for better context)<br /><br />To get a better perspective on these scenes, let&#8217;s put them in their original order &#8211; the order in which they would have occurred.<br /><br />First we see &#8220;silvery buildings that touched the sky&#8221;. This seems to be describing skyscrapers which only occur in heavily urban areas. Note the comment about the street being wide but <u>still crowded</u>. Then comes the comment about the chora trees. We don&#8217;t know if there are just a few, or if the streets are choked with them, but we do get the idea that any city without one would seem bleak*. This implies strongly that all the AoL cities have them. We also have the comment that <u>wilderness is bleak</u>. Chora trees, then, do not grow in the wilderness, or at least nowhere near enough of them to keep such wilderness from feeling bleak.<br /><br />*Side note: Bleak &#8211; unwelcoming, austere, miserable, drab, dreary, depressing, desolate, uninviting, lonely, cheerless.<br /><br />The cities of the AoL are large and crowded, so crowded they need to consolidate living space by building up instead of out. And, the population considers &#8220;mother nature&#8221; so foreign or uncomfortable that it feels bleak. They are detached from nature, for the most part and prefer their more comfortably familiar (and predictable) urban environment.<br /><br />Second, we see some ruralization when we have a scene in a town (not city) where food is force grown, en masse, but where the people still see signs of &#8220;civilization&#8221; nearby. As this passage indicates it happens on the day LTT and the 100-Companions strike at Shayol Ghul, we know it is some good time after the opening of the Bore (decades at least). The ruralization for purposes of food production is obvious. Implications are, however, that this method of food growing was either not the way it had been done before, or it was a method to which a very limited number of people had previously bore witness; certainly not the kind of &#8220;rural&#8221; activity the <u>common</u> person of the AoL partook, and very probably never under military guard before.<br /><br />Third, the &#8220;empty streets&#8221;, &#8220;shattered buildings&#8221; and &#8220;abandoned jo-cars&#8221; describe advanced decay of the society. Urban civilization is almost completely dead. We have no good timeline to see exactly how long this demolition took, but it certainly took decades if not a couple of centuries (maybe more). By this point most of the surviving population was probably more rural in nature, but only because they had been forced to it by unfortunate circumstance, not by choice.<br /><br />The key point here is, at least at the beginning, in the earliest days of the Bore and the War of Power, the population was densely packed into urban areas and felt that nature was a stranger, in many ways. Some people, such as Aes Sedai, could partake of the &#8220;rustic&#8221; if they felt the desire, but such activities may not have been considered the norm.<br /><br />All in all this aspect of the AoL seems to meet the nature criteria seen in dystopia.<br /><br /><b>Politics</b>: Dystopian politics are often characterized as one of several types of governments and political systems. These systems include, but are not limited to, Anarchism, bureaucracy, socialism, communism, chaos, capitalism, fascism, totalitarianism, dictatorships and other forms of political, social and economical control. These governments often assert great power over the citizens. The form of government itself, however, is not always indicative of dystopia, merely the kind of veneer that has been drawn over the fatal flaw at its core. The social structure more sets the venue for how difficult it will be for change to occur to more than anything else; the more totalitarian the government the more difficult the change and the more dramatic the conflict of the story.<br /><br /><b>Economics</b>: The economic structures of dystopic societies have many variations, as the economy often relates directly to the elements that the writer is depicting as the source of the oppression. However, there are several archetypes that such societies tend to follow. A commonly occurring theme is that the state is in control of the economy. Some feature black markets with goods that are dangerous and difficult to obtain, or the characters may be totally at the mercy of the state-controlled economy. Such systems usually have a lack of efficiency. Other works feature extensive privatization. In this context, big businesses often have far more control over the populace than any kind of government and thus act as governments themselves instead of businesses.<br /><br />Our knowledge of this aspect of the AoL is very limited so I will not try to specify what kind of economics they have, but we do get some very suggestive peeks. Moghedien&#8217;s background, according to the Guide:<blockquote>&#8220;Lillen Moiral was an &#8216;advisor for investments,&#8217; a profession that no source explains. Whatever the work entailed, it is recorded that she was cautioned a number of times, and even disciplined, for violating its ethics and the laws surrounding it.&#8221; [Guide, p. 68 ]</blockquote>Others had &#8220;occupations&#8221; of some sort. Ishammael was a philosopher. Agnior a biologist, Balthemel some sort of anthropologist, Sammael a &#8220;world renowned sportsman&#8221;, Be&#8217;Lal was a lawyer, Asmodean was a composer, Lanfear was a researcher, Graendal was a &#8220;noted ascetic&#8221; and mental health expert, Semirhage a renowned healer, Mesaana was a teacher.<br /><br />Though in dystopias the form of government strongly tends towards dictatorship or tyranny of some kind, it is not necessary. They can be &#8220;free&#8221; democracies as well. From the variety of occupations we see with the Forsaken, it is easy to presume one of less tyrannical bent. Certainly they had money and high finance, hence Moggy&#8217;s &#8220;Investment Advisor&#8221; job. They had laws and courts, they did not suppress art, literature, medicine or any other field requiring high intelligence and advanced education. From what I see, I would be strongly inclined to say that the economics of the period, possibly even the governmental type, would be similar to what we see in our modern world, mostly an open, &#8220;free&#8221; market economy. Failing that it could still be communist, socialist or even fascist without being tyrannical; at least on the surface.<br /><br /><b>The back story</b>: Because a fictional universe has to be constructed, a selectively-told back story of a war, revolution, uprising, critical overpopulation, or other <u>disaster</u> is often introduced early in the narrative. This results in a shift in emphasis of control, from previous systems of government to a government run by totalitarian dictatorships. Because dystopian literature typically depicts events that take place in the future, it often features technology more advanced than that of contemporary society. Usually, the advanced technology is controlled exclusively by the group in power, while the oppressed population is limited to technology comparable to or more primitive than what we have today.<br /><br />We certainly see some this description in the AoL.<br /><br />Other points:<br /><br />The chora trees could be taken as a mechanism of control; the powers that be ensuring a docile and compliant population through the use of stupefying, mind-altering or initiative suppressing measures.<br /><br />The use of &#8220;Oath Rods&#8221; on criminals as a tool of unbreakable compulsion to prevent further non-compliance with social norms, yet eliminating the requirement for isolative or interment institutions like prisons; they can still be &#8220;productive members of society.&#8221;<br /><br />The use of terminology of questionable or debatable meaning. The Hall of Servants might be descriptive of a central meeting place for people who actually serve society. On the other hand, Orwellian &#8220;Newspeak&#8221; shows how meanings can be reversed. The Ministry of Truth was for public propaganda and lies. The Ministry of Peace was responsible for waging war. The Ministry of Love engendered hate, etc., etc. With that interpretation, the Hall of Servants might actually be the Hall of the Masters.<br /><br />The AoL has a stratified social order, also fairly typical of dystopias. The Aiel could easily be construed as slave labor, residing at the bottom of the social pecking order just below &#8220;Oath Rod&#8221; bound criminals.<br /><br />According to the Guide,<blockquote>&#8220;The Sharom was one of the classic examples of functional beauty. It might seem <u>impractical</u> to suspend a building high in the air, especially a scientific research facility that required its visitors to use an airborne transport or the One Power&#8230;&#8221; [Guide, p 34]</blockquote>There seems no practical reason or need for building it where and how they did it. The only justification seems to be that they did it that way because they could, without regard to other factors; certainly a sign of deterioration or degeneration &#8211; the cost and logistics would be enormously wasteful.<br /><br />&#8220;Ok,&#8221; you say. &#8220;So it looks like they might be dystopic in some form, but the definition indicates there&#8217;s a &#8220;fatal flaw&#8221; underneath. So what&#8217;s the fatal flaw of the AoL? Hmmmm?&#8221;<br /><br />There might be several. 1) Ignorance. They are so far removed from knowledge of the Creator and the DO that they don&#8217;t even think to connect their research into a new source of power as a possible source of danger. Corollaries to this can be found in statements like George Santayana&#8217;s &#8220;Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.&#8221; 2) Hubris [excessive pride or arrogance; the excessive pride and <u>ambition</u> (Lanfear anyone?) that usually leads to the downfall of a hero or people in a classic tragedy]. Corollaries to this can be found in Lord Action&#8217;s &#8220;Power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.&#8221;<br /><br />The definition also indicates that there might be some &#8220;&#8230;other factor which destroyed or twisted the intended utopian world&#8230;&#8221; The DO&#8217;s hand seen actively destroying the world just might qualify as an &#8220;other factor&#8221;.<br /><br />To me it is obvious that the AoL, as we&#8217;ve seen it described, was an atypical, oligarchic anti- or counter-Utopia, typified by densely populated urban areas where the population felt uncomfortable or even afraid of nature, where artificial measures were used to repress or control much of the people into compliance, where social stratification was used to segregate elements of the population into easily recognizable and controllable groups, and which contained elements of spiritual occult hegemony in a privileged elite who commanded and controlled everyone else.<br /><br />Simple really&#8230;<br /><br />What are your thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-02-15 06:39:14
subject: Mesaana - Amylia Sedai
body:
<p>I theorise that I have found Mesaana's present location and identity. She is masquerading as Amylia Sedai, who currently resides with the Sea Folk as, get this for irony, a teacher. <br /><br />I base this on a few things, and afterwards will point out the holes in this theory, to save you lot all of the trouble you would normally go to.<br /><br />First of all, she is only mentioned in one chapter, To make an Anchor Weep, in KoD. She is described as being an &quot;Aes Sedai Zaida had brought back with her from Caemlyn.&quot; She is never mentioned in Caemlyn, although could be one of the Silver Swan sisters who always seemed to remain anonymous. However, Zaida, as she announces that she is leaving Elayne in Caemlyn, says &quot;I have sent to the sisters at the Silver Swan... but I cannot wait on their reply.&quot;(CoT, a Bargain) This implies that she did not wait for any of the sisters from the inn, unless this Amylia ran her horse to the palace as soon as she heard, and Elayne is with me on this one, saying &quot;I fear you will harvest no teachers at the Silver Swan,&quot;(CoT, a Bargain). There is, of course, no guarantee that Elayne is right, but there is also nothing to say she is wrong, either, and the point is that we get the impression that Zaida probably won't get any teachers from the Inn.<br /><br />Next is her physical description, which, admittedly is a bit of a patchy area for the theory, but it must be discussed. She is &quot;bosomy, pale-haired&quot; and appears &quot;permanently surpised, her startling blue eyes very wide,&quot;(To make an anchor weep, KoD) She is also said to be &quot;breathing heavily, for some reason.&quot; (to make an anchor weep, KoD) In the FAQ, Mesaana is described as &quot;A woman of average height and appearance,&quot; and nothing more is said about her physically, except that she is &quot;pale and wan after her punishment by Shaidar Haran.&quot; The two don't quite match up, and I have said that there are holes in this theory, but I believe that she is using the Mask of Mirrors here, as she has an &quot;ageless Aes Sedai face&quot; (To make an anchor weep, KoD)which she almost certainly doesn't have as her natural look. Unless you believe that she has held the Oath Rod (yes, that was sarcasm). <br /><br />The next thing is the one detail of Mesaana that we know for certain. Bronze coloured skirts, as we are told by Alviarin, who then pretty much says to watch out for them. Amylia &quot;gathered her bronze colored skirts&quot; as she jumps to obey one of Zaida's orders.<br /><br />The next is her current role, as teacher. We all know that she has been &quot;punished&quot; by Shaidar Haran, but the extents of this are unknown. We also know that he has a rather nasty sense of humour, as the only Myrddral with one(I don't remember where that one is, but it's in there somewhere). This is the same guy who ordered Carridin, an alcoholic, drowned in brandy, and had Falion become a maidserant, as a punishment. Could he, just for a laugh, have made Mesaana a teacher, to  teach her to follow orders? She basically jumps at every one of Zaida's commands, and there are theories that Zaida is Mesaana.<br /><br />That is my next point. The appearance of power. If, and I understand that this is quite an if, Zaida is a darkfriend, in command of the Ath'an Miere, she could be filling a similar role to Mili Skane, or Lady Shiaine, in Caemlyn, placed above Falion. On the other hand, Mesaana could be using compulsion, wielding the power but not being seen to wield power.<br /><br />Another point is Rand's orders, to send ships to Bandar Eban. They seem a little bit suspicious, to me at least. I can understand them, but just think where those ships are going, and about the fact that it is never mentioned. All of those heavily laden supply ships, in Illian, must travel past both Ebou Dar, and Tanchico, harbours filled to bursting with Seanchan ships. Seanchan who are not likely to miss an opportunity to hit an enemy's supply lines when they are stretched out like that for the taking.<br /><br />She also calls down Logain, claiming him to be &quot;tainted.&quot; The other thing that she says, however, is very interesting. She says that &quot;if you deal with him, you will incur the wrath of the White Tower.&quot; (both to make an anchor weep, KoD). However, we know from Elayne that the Aes Sedai at the Silver Swan were part of the &quot;other third&quot; who were sitting on the sidelines during the rebellion. Therefore, she would not be upholding one of Elaida's orders, or even bringing it up. Getting Zaida to ignore the order would also fit neatly into the &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; thing, with the Ath'an Miere disobeying Rand's orders, almost certainly invoking his displaesure.<br /><br />Finally, Logain and his amusement. He seems amused when Zaida asks the whereabouts of Rand, and he says he cannot tell her, saying &quot;The Forsaken have made efforts to kill him.&quot; (to make an anchor weep, KoD). This points to either there being darkfriends in the room, i.e. Zaida, or, in fact, one of the Forsaken, Mesaana.<br /><br />I will admit that there are holes, such as her general demeanour, the willingness to obey Zaida, but I think that this Amylia is Mesaana, and that the Forsaken finally have someone in the Ath'an Miere. After all, it is logical that she has left the tower, after being all but discovered by Alviarin. <br /><br />Let the de-bunking begin!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-02-21 01:04:58
subject: Rand the &quot;Handless&quot; becomes Rand the &quot;Silver&quot; Hand
body:
<p>We're all familliar with the fact that Rand has lost his hand to Semirhage, in fulfillment of the Rand/Tyr parallel that has been mentioned so many times.<br /><br />So, is Rand just going to be handless forever?  I don't think so.  There are two other parallels that lead me to believe that Rand is going to get a hand back.  <br /><br />First is the Fisher King parallel.  The Fisher King is linked to the land (as is Rand), and as he is healed so is the land.  Now, the most obvious unhealing wound that Rand has suffered are the two cuts in the side (both paralleling the Fisher King and Christ).  But the loss of his hand may also count as well.  We know that Rand is going to be the 'blind beggar' soon, though in what capacity that will be is unkown to us.  Clearly he can't fight the Dark One as an insane, blinded, one-handed Dragon.  Or at least, I'd be surprised if that is what happened.  I believe Rand has to be healed before the Last Battle.  <br /><br />While Cadsuane &amp; Semirhage may figure out a way to heal his mind, and Nynaeve may figure out a way to heal his eyes, I think Elayne (the maker of ter' angreals) is going to come in to the picture in terms of Rand's hand.  Which brings me to the second parallel, leading me to my theory:<br /><br />Rand &amp; Nuada &quot;Silver Hand&quot;<br /><br />As is noted in the FAQ, Rand's 'handless' parallel isn't only to Tyr, the Norse God who sacrficed his hand in order to save the 'world.'  Nuada Silverhand is perhaps an even more direct parallel:<br /><br />----------------------------<br />Nuada &#8216;Silver Hand&#8217; was a king of the Irish Tuatha De Danann and god of the Sun, magic, weapons, and warfare. He had an invincible sword, the Sword of Light (probably equivalent to Callandor), one of four great treasures of the Tuatha De Danann, with which he cut his enemies in half. The other treasures are the spear of Lugh (equivalent to the Dragon sceptre or Mat&#8217;s ashanderei), the Dagda&#8217;s cauldron Undry (Bowl of Winds) and the Stone of Fal or Destiny (the Stone of Tear, where Rand was destined to draw Callandor).<br /><br />Nuada lost his hand in battle and being less than physically perfect, was no longer eligible to be king and was replaced by Bres. Nuada&#8217;s brother Dian Cecht, the god of healing, made Nuada a silver hand as a replacement. The Tuatha De Danann had found Bres to be tyrannical and exiled him and now that Nuada was considered whole, he returned to his position as king. He was later killed by Balor, god of death. <br /><br />Rand lost his hand in battle with Semirhage. The Aiel, the most Celtic of Rand&#8217;s followers (see Age of Legends FAQ), do not appear to disqualify physically imperfect people from leading them, since one of the clan chiefs, Mandelain, only has one eye (A Crown of Swords, As the Plow Breaks the Earth). Rand expects to die confronting the Lord of the Grave.<br />---------------------<br /><br />Mazrim Taim seems to be the closest parallel to Bres.  He was a &quot;False Dragon&quot; before Rand announced himself and he has proven to be as tyrannical and evil as Bres.  While the FAQ notes there is no requirement that Rand be 'whole' in order to lead the Aiel or fulfill his destiny, the fact that Nuada lost his hand and had a new one constructed for him is suggestive to me.<br /><br />Why not a ter' angreal hand, that serves some purpose (an access key to the Choden Kal?  a ward against the Shadow?  The possibilities are endless!!)?  Or even better, a sa' angreal hand, that allows him to channel much more of the power than he can otherwise.  A permanent angreal for a hand?  Sounds cool to me.  And we've got a member of Randland, who also happens to love him, who can make ter' angreals.  While we haven't seen anything like a ter' angreal that is part of someone (the closest being those worn by Cadsuane and other AS in their hair)...this wouldn't be the first time a current Randlander managed something not even seen in the Age of Legends.    <br /><br />And there's my theory.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-03-12 06:39:38
subject: Ta'verenness: Some ideas
body:
<p>I don't know if this qualifies as a theory or more as an essay.<br /><br /><b>Theory</b>: &quot;...&#173;an explanation to a set of observations. The statement of a theory is generally accepted only in some <u>tentative</u> fashion as opposed to regarding it as having been conclusively established.&quot;<br /><br />Ok, so a theory is one or more unproven (possibly unprovable) conjectures or speculations. In that vein, this is a theory. But the scope of ideas approached here and the amount of discussion needed to address them clearly turns it into a rather extensive lecture more akin to an essay; an exploration of my take on the subject. My attempt is not to change anyone's mind but rather to put my ideas and perspectives forward to see if anyone else thinks there's any merit to it.<br /><br />Additionally, consider this a &quot;correction&quot; and expansion on a previous post of mine titled &quot;<i>Mr. Sandman, Dream Me A Hero...&#173;</i>&quot;. Though my general point there still holds, I think it came out pretty sloppy and confusing. You can read it, if you want to, but I admit it's a hash job and not worth the effort. I'm hoping to readdress and clarify some of those thoughts here.<br /><br />The general subject matter is <i>ta'verenness</i>, (a very controversial issue and one about which there seem to be many perspectives) and some areas on which it impacts the stories, such as Horn Heroes and the Horn of Valere, Rand, Mat, Birgitte, etc. Once <i>ta'verenness</i> itself is understood (at least in the light supplied here) many potentially confusing aspects of the story become clearer. The areas explored here (certainly not all-inclusive or definitive by any means) include:<br /><br />1. Information from &quot;in-story&quot; sources is suspect: not always to be trusted.<br />2. Creating a <i>ta'veren</i>; how it works.<br />3. Who is/is not can/cannot be <i>ta'veren</i>.<br />4. The memory problem.<br />5. The Horn of Valere and its role.<br />6. Heroes of the Horn. What are they really?<br /><br />To properly address these matters it is first necessary to ensure clear information about the effect called <i>ta'veren</i>. Below are some quotes both from in-story sources (characters and otherwise) and from (or reliably attributable to) the author. Although rereading these quotes may seem an onerous rehash, it's recommended to refresh the memory.<br /><br />1) &quot;A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.&quot; [tEotW, Glossary]<br /><br />2) &quot;The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives...&#173; And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is <i>ta'veren</i>, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - <i>ta'maral'ailen</i>, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was <i>ta'veren</i>. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose. [Loial, tEotW, Ch 36, <i>Web of the Pattern</i>]<br /><br />3) &quot;Even the <i>ta'veren</i> and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out <i>ta'veren</i> whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more <i>ta'veren</i> spun out into the world.&quot; [Guide, p.14] <br /><br />4) &quot;You aren't born <i>ta'veren</i>. Can you imagine being around a <i>ta'veren</i> who is teething? &#161;&#173; <i>ta'veren</i> are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more <i>ta'veren</i> are created.&quot; [Jordan's official web blog, Oct 25, 2005]<br /><br />5) &quot;One becomes <i>ta'veren</i> according to the needs of the Wheel. No one is born <i>ta'veren</i>. Rand, Mat and Perrin became <i>ta'veren</i> just before Moiraine appeared. You become <i>ta'veren</i> according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes <i>ta'veren</i> because the Wheel has decided to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn't sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.&quot; [Jordan, CoT eBook, Glimmers interview Q&amp;A]<br /><br />6) &quot;And, no, <i>ta'veren</i> is not Old Tongue for <i>Deus ex machine</i>.&quot; [Jordan's official web blog, Oct 5, 2005]<br /><br /><b>1. Insight and information from characters and other &quot;in-story&quot; sources is not always trustworthy.</b><br /> <br />As the Omniscient Creator, Jordan's words on the subject are the only words in which we can put <u>complete</u> stock. Explanations of <i>ta'verenness</i> we receive from the P'sOV of characters (and other in-story sources like glossaries, the Guide, etc.) are suspect as these sources only know, and can only tell, what the author allows; their words and actions potentially used against us as tools of misdirection. A perfect example of this is the Olver = Cain idea (addressed later). In a certain context we can use Jordan's own comment about the WOTFAQ against these in-story sources: &quot;they&#161;&#175;re 1/3rd correct, 1/3rd close but not quite, and 1/3rd dead wrong.&quot; We must be careful if we use any of these sources exclusively; they are neither &quot;definitive&quot; nor &quot;indisputable&quot;. If any point(s) they make conflict with the author's own words, they might have to be discounted outright. Like Aes Sedai, they tell the truth as they believe it to be, not necessarily as it really is. Jordan can (and does) use them to manipulate us.<br /><br /><b>2. Creating <i>ta'veren</i>; how it works.</b><br /><br />To understand the essential difference between &quot;souls&quot; and &quot;threads&quot; we need to examine two additional sources not listed above to see what the author has to say on the issue.<blockquote><i>Australia Interview, August 1999</i><br />&quot;The fabric of reality is woven by &lt;/u&gt;threads&lt;/u&gt;. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality.&quot;</blockquote>and,<blockquote><i>Elf Fantasy Fair, Netherlands tour, April 2001</i><br />&quot;Kurafire: <u>So threads and souls are the same thing</u>?<br /><br />RJ: Err, <u>not the same thing</u>, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. <u>You die and the soul remains to come again</u> and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone...The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.&quot; [emphasis added]</blockquote>Souls and threads are two different things. Souls are the essence of each person. Threads, however, are lives and living bodies. When a life begins, its &quot;thread&quot; begins (let us avoid the argument of whether a person gets a soul at conception or birth, please). During a lifetime, this thread is interwoven with other threads to create the Pattern (the fabric of reality). The ending of the thread and the ending of the life are the same thing, the body dies and the thread ends. The soul continues, however, waiting reincarnation. A soul can end and a life continue (as with Grey Men). The destruction of the soul and the end of the life are two separate cases, separate events with separate consequences.<br /><br />Quote #1 above says that a <i>ta'veren</i> is a person &quot;...around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life threads...&quot; Quote #2 has Loial saying that <i>ta'verenness</i> is the initial &quot;bending&quot; of a thread. Threads are lives (usually incarnated souls... Grey Men being an exception in that their souls are destroyed but the life continues). So the concept of <i>ta'veren</i> inherently involves <u>life threads</u>. This in itself eliminates HH as <i>ta'veren</i>. They are <u>not</u> incarnated souls, not &quot;people passing through time&quot; and have no &quot;living body&quot;, therefore they themselves <u>cannot</u> be <i>ta'veren</i>. Though slightly skewed, Quote #3 from the Guide supports the notion by referring to <i>ta'veren</i> in reference to the Great Pattern, which is the &quot;reality&quot; made of woven threads (lives). Contextually, Quote #3 is essentially accurate; it agrees with the author's words and helps to further verify that HH are not <i>ta'veren</i>.<br /><br />Loial's comment about &quot;bending&quot; must be examined for a moment. Without devolving into physics, what is a &quot;bend&quot; going to do to a life thread, especially in context to <i>ta'verenness</i>? It is a change of some sort. Quote #5 has Jordan saying, &quot;One <u>becomes</u> <i>ta'veren</i>.&quot; In Quote #4, Jordan says that <i>ta'veren</i> are &quot;<u>created</u>.&quot; So, &quot;becoming&#161;&quot; and &quot;creating&quot; are the same thing. To &quot;create&quot; is to a) bring something out of nothing, or; b) take one or more existing things and changing them to make something else. As <i>ta'veren</i> involves already existing incarnated souls, this &quot;creation&quot; cannot be in context of definition a) so it must be in context of definition b). An incarnated soul is somehow changed to &quot;create&quot; something else; Loial's &quot;bend&quot; then accurately (if misleadingly) describes the moment of change when a <u>thread</u> &quot;becomes&quot; <i>ta'veren</i>. Quote #5 even highlights this concept saying, &quot;Rand, Mat and Perrin became <i>ta'veren</i> just before Moiraine appeared.&quot; In context of Loial's statement, this is the moment their threads were &quot;bent.&quot;<br /><br /><b>3. Who is/is not can/cannot be <i>ta'veren</i>?</b><br /><br />We've established that only living persons (souls existing in time with bodies -- threads) can &quot;become&quot; <i>ta'veren</i>. Both the author and the story verify that The Boys are all three <i>ta'veren</i>. Jordan even tells us that The Boys &quot;<u>became</u> <i>ta'veren</i>&quot; (their threads bent) so their <i>ta'verenness</i> cannot be disputed. Quote #2 helps verify that Artur Hawkwing and LTT were <i>ta'veren</i> when they were alive. Since only living persons can be <i>ta'veren</i>, Hawkwing <u>was</u> <i>ta'veren</i> while alive but his appearance at Falme was not the appearance of a <i>ta'veren</i> (he's non-incarnated -- he has no thread), merely of a soul bound to the Wheel, a soul currently called &quot;Hawkwing&quot;.<br /><br />Hawking recognizes Rand as LTT. HH are known to repeatedly reincarnate so we can construe that LTT is also a Horn Hero. This is supported by Jordan who says, &quot;This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills&#161;&#173; LTT (Rand (the Dragon soul)) is a Hero of the Horn.&quot; [Jordan Interviews, Los Angeles, Oct 22, 1998 ]. LTT is a HH and (like Hawkwing) though <i>ta'veren</i> when alive, he is not an incarnated soul at this time (he does not have his own body and thread) so is not <i>ta'veren</i> at this point any more than Hawkwing.<br /><br />&quot;Rand, Mat and Perrin <u>became</u> <i>ta'veren</i> just before Moiraine appeared.&quot; We know the process of making a <i>ta'veren</i> is the taking of an incarnated soul and somehow changing it to make it something else. In Rand's case we see what the change is. The non-incarnated soul of a Hero (LTT in this case) was added to (attached, melded, or interwoven -- to use Jordan's &quot;spinning&quot;&quot; metaphor) to Rand's incarnated soul making <u>Rand</u> the <i>ta'veren</i>, <u>not</u> LTT; the result is a fused composite. Jordan verifies this by saying that Rand's case is &quot;one soul with two personalities&quot; [Barnes &amp; Noble book signing, NY NY, 7 Jan 1993]. The two souls, Rand/LLT have been interwoven and become a single soul, but both personalities (memories, skills, etc.) occupy the same &quot;space&quot;. Whether such a melding of souls <u>requires</u> a HH soul or not is unknown and there may be insufficient information to make more than a guess, though the above quote from RJ about HH being bound and spun out at need might imply such.<br /><br />From what we now know, we can finally quash the seemingly un-killable idea that Olver is Gaidal Cain &quot;Reborn&quot;. In Quotes #4 &amp; #5, Jordan clearly says &quot;no one is <u>born</u> <i>ta'veren</i>&quot;, so <i>ta'verenness</i> is <u>not</u> connected to birth&#161;&#173; in other words a non-incarnated soul is never attached to the soul (thread) of a new-born. Repudiating the Olver = Cain idea directly, in the Dayton Ohio signing, January 16, 2003, responding to the question of whether Olver is Cain, Jordan says:<blockquote>&quot;<u>No</u>. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a <u>red herring</u>, though.&quot; [emphasis added]</blockquote>This seeming connection, however attractive, is admittedly a deliberate ruse, a &quot;red herring&quot;. So, blow that one out. Olver is not Cain. Period.<br /><br />Some then insist on trying to draw parallels that either &quot;prove&quot; or &quot;strongly imply&quot; that Cain is a young child, most likely a year old or less. They quote Birgitte's [tFoH, Ch 36, <i>A New Name</i>] &quot;Gaidal is out there somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy,&quot; in an attempt to support the contention. Remember, we've already shown that &quot;in-story concept&quot; sources are not to be trusted. This is the seminal example why. RJ admits the entire notion is a &quot;red herring&quot;, a deliberate misdirection. Birgitte's perspective on the issue is wrong. Jordan (Quote #4) throws this Olver = young boy idea out the window (to a degree) with, &quot;Can you imagine being around a <i>ta'veren</i> who is teething?&quot; Jordan obviously did and decided this would be a bad thing -- thus the rules for <i>ta'veren</i> precluded any child young enough to be &quot;teething&quot;. Teething typical begins between three and nine months and is generally complete by age 30 months. So, if Jordan feels that teething and <i>ta'verenness</i> do not mix then no <i>ta'veren</i> is less than 30 months of age. Birgitte indicates that Cain was likely &quot;spun out&quot;. If so, he is now in the real world but he is neither Olver nor any child less than 30 months. But there's more... &#173;Birgitte referred to Cain's disappearance as being &quot;spun out&quot;, not &quot;born.&quot; The distinction is important in that being &quot;spun out&quot; is a signature phrase used by Jordan to describe the creation of a <i>ta'veren</i>, the interweaving of a non-incarnated Hero soul with an incarnated soul, an already existing thread. Cain's HH soul has gone to make someone else <i>ta'veren</i>.<br /><br />If no one is born <i>ta'veren</i> and no one below about 30 months of age can be <i>ta'veren</i>, then who can? We know of only three historically recognized <i>ta'veren</i> prior to The Boys: LTT, Mabriam an Shereed, and Artur Hawkwing [there are other possible candidates -- such as Rand's biological father, Janduin -- but that's for somewhere/when else]. Keep in mind that these people were only <i>ta'veren</i> while alive, that state ending when their thread ended. The only information we have about these three come from their adult years, as they were performing the deeds for which they would become famous. Then we have The Boys themselves whom Jordan says, &quot;...&#173;became <i>ta'veren</i> just before Moiraine appeared.&quot; We know The Boys were born within days of each other in the late winter/early spring of 978NE. By the time Moiraine arrives in Emond's Field at the beginning of tEotW the approximate time period is the late spring or early summer of 998NE. That means that all three were 19 years old: adults.<br /><br />We are given no positive proof of <i>ta'verenness</i> in LTT, Shereed, or Hawkwing <u>prior</u> to their adult years. We know for sure that The Boys didn't <u>become</u> <i>ta'veren</i> until they were adults. Also, there are no indications of Juvenile Onset of <i>Ta'verenness</i> (making Olver = young boy less likely). Given lack of positive proof to the contrary we are forced, however reluctantly, to use negative proof to conclude (a bit thin, admittedly, but all we really have to work with): <i>ta'verenness</i> is most likely an <u>adult</u> phenomenon.<br /><br />From <i>Thus Spake the Creator</i>, RJ says: &quot;Who says that what <u>Gaidal has been reborn</u> to do is to fight the Last Battle? There is more to do to keep the Pattern on course than the Last Battle.&quot; [Robert Jordan, SciFi Chat, Nov 14 2000] [emphasis added]. Using the word &quot;reborn&quot; Jordan verifies that Cain has been &quot;spun out&quot; (quashing notions that one or more Forsaken trashed him in TAR) and is therefore the HH soul making someone else <i>ta'veren</i>. It also implies very strongly that Cain's &quot;rebirth&quot; is unassociated with anything going on in the current story. Cain has been &quot;spun out&quot; and could be anyone in the world more than 30 months of age except Olver. Cain's &quot;age&quot; (though it has a lower limit) cannot be determined any more than his whereabouts and identity. Whoever Cain is he's most likely already an adult, not a boy, but that is rather speculative. We'll just have to RAFO.<br /><br />Here, I will quote a &quot;statement of logic&quot; posted on a known theory website. I choose not to give specific credit to the individual because I do not know if he/she would want such credit. Let me be very clear that I have no intention of belittling this person's conclusions; the mistake is common. I am merely using it to show how someone who addresses the idea in another perspective might miss the target by a wide margin. With my own commentary added:<blockquote>&quot;We know Rand is a Hero of the Horn [1]; we know Rand is <i>ta'veren</i> [2]. We know Lews Therin is a Hero of the Horn [3]; we know Arthur Hawking <u>was</u> a <i>ta'veren</i> [4]. We know Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are Heroes of the Horn [5]; we know (from Birgitte's POV [6]) that she (and Cain by that, since they're always linked) were reborn at certain important events in known Ages -- the Age of Legends with Lews Therin, the Founding of the White Tower, the Trolloc Wars, and others [7].<br /><br />It's not hard to see that Heroes of the Horn are <i>ta'veren</i> [8 ]; just that it's completely possible that <u>not all <i>ta'veren</i> are Heroes of the Horn</u>. [9]&quot;<br /><br />1. Wrong. LTT is, verified by RJ<br />2. Correct, because LTT's non-incarnated HH soul has been attached to his<br />3. Correct. Verified by RJ<br />4. Correct. But only when alive, not at Falme<br />5. Correct. at least until Birgitte is ripped -- after that it's anyone's guess<br />6. Untrustworthy in some instances<br />7. Correct, no argument<br />8. Wrong, only living people can be <i>ta'veren</i>, not non-incarnated HH<br />9. None are. They're all living people with another soul attached, usually HH.</blockquote>At some future point a living individual (<i>ta'veren</i> or not) might become a HH (&quot;Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day.&quot; [Artur Hawkwing, tGH, Ch 47, <i>The Grave is No Bar to My Call</i>]) but as <i>ta'verenness</i>, at its essence, involves threads altered by other souls, a <i>ta'veren</i> cannot be a HH until after death.<br /><br /><i>Ta'verenness</i> is the state of an incarnated soul changed by having a non-incarnated soul bonded to or intertwined with it. Whether that non-incarnated soul is <i>always</i> a Hero soul may not be provable without RJ's further input. <i>Ta'veren</i> are &quot;created&quot; to correct drift in the Pattern. This self-corrective mechanism is a survival function of the Wheel. Certainly any state dire enough to invoke this survival mechanism might cause us to conclude that the Wheel has activated a &quot;Hero&quot; to save it, and thus that all <i>ta'veren</i> contain Hero souls, but the contention seems unsupportable conjecture. It is possible that the Wheel reserves the making of <i>ta'veren</i> using Hero souls for &quot;major&quot; needs and that &quot;minor&quot; action could find a non-Hero soul attached to a thread and still achieve &quot;<i>ta'verenness</i>&quot;.<br /><br />Here's an example: Rand's biological father, Janduin, might arguably have been <i>ta'veren</i>. Let's presume for a moment that he was. Was his trail of deeds, the effect he had on the world as a whole, of a caliber we might regard as either &quot;heroic&quot; or sufficiently notable for his name to be associated with <i>ta'verenness</i>; would future records name him <i>ta'veren</i>? To me, no. After Rand's birth Janduin goes to the Blight and is killed by Slayer. History and scholars could easily overlook him, his <i>ta'verenness</i> (if he <u>were</u> <i>ta'veren</i>) never recognized. Perhaps this is a case of a &quot;lesser&quot;, non-Hero, soul being used to make Janduin <i>ta'veren</i>? I will leave the argument to others.<br /><br />An exploratory comment here: If <i>ta'veren</i> is the act of attaching, melding, interweaving (or should we even say &quot;bonding&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> a non-incarnated Hero soul to a thread (incarnated soul) would that technically make Elayne <i>ta'veren</i>? Though the specific process used in this case seems different than normal, the outcome could be interpreted that way. More later.<br /><br /><b>4. The memory problem addressed.</b><br /><br />While in TAR, Birgitte is aware of who and what she is. In this waiting (neutral) mode she can remember all of her previous lives and is cognizant of the spinning of the Wheel in ways unavailable to others without her perspective. Yet she indicates that when &quot;spun out&quot; she forgets everything. Her memory of whom and what she is, then, is either erased or suppressed. Hawkwing's: &quot;You could tell him, Lews Therin, <u>could you but remember when you wore flesh</u>.&quot; [GH, Ch47, <i>The Grave Is No Bar To My Call</i>] supports this concept strongly. Hawkwing takes this condition as commonplace -- the suppression deliberate. Birgitte later supports it even more with,<blockquote>&quot;Always when the Wheel spun me out, I was born, lived and died without ever knowing I was bound to the Wheel. I only knew that in between, in <i>tel'aran'rhiod</i>. Sometimes I became known, even famous, but I was like everyone else, not somebody out of a legend. This time I was ripped out, not spun out. For the first time wearing flesh, I know who I am.&quot; [LoC, Ch 40, <i>Unexpected Laughter</i>].</blockquote>What could its purpose be? Three possible cases come immediately to mind:<br /><br />1) The avoidance of Birgitte-like speech and behavior anachronisms. This seems a comparatively minor problem and not worth implementing such a drastic measure to prevent;<br /><br />2) As a safety mechanism to prevent possible misuse of the subsequent <i>ta'veren</i> ability. This is a stronger argument, but we haven't seen much in the way of <u>deliberate</u> use (let alone misuse) of <i>ta'verenness</i> in this way. One or more of The Boys have found/placed themselves in a position to give their <i>ta'verenness</i> a chance to work in their favor (such as Rand's negotiations with the Sea Folk), but we see that these cases still have outcomes not necessarily to their complete liking. We've seen no pre-mediated and truly <u>controlled</u> use of <i>ta'verenness</i> and cannot presume that it can be deliberately misused;<br /><br />3) The prevention of &quot;contact madness&quot;. I prefer this one. Rand hears LTT in his head. If <u>every</u> person who became <i>ta'veren</i> heard the soul of a &quot;dead&quot; person in their head, they would all most likely go insane. As insanity is already a horrible difficulty for male channelers because of the taint why pile on? Also, <i>ta'veren</i> can exist in Ages not only without the DO's taint, but also (speculatively) in Ages without channeling. Such a phenomenon in those periods would doubtless be classified as madness, true or not. Wiping or suppressing the memories and common behavior habits of a &quot;possessing spirit&quot; helps the resulting <i>ta'veren</i> individual operate in their milieu without the hindrances associable with madness.<br /><br />Jordan says Rand's case is &quot;one soul, two personalities&quot;. We see now how this is so. Rand's soul has been melded with LTT's (changed) to &quot;create&quot; a single, composite soul (<i>ta'veren</i>). LTT's memories and personality traits remain; they do not seem to have been suppressed in the usual way. This is supported by Jordan's comment &quot;Lews Therin is a disembodied voice that refuses to believe he is a disembodied voice.&quot; [KoD book tour, 21 Oct 2005]. One obvious potential reason (there may be more) for this is spread out for us throughout the story. Rand is unprepared for his situation. He knows nothing of politics, law, economics, military strategy/tactics, channeling, or any other essential knowledge/skill he will have to have to reach and fight the LB. And with channeling, he has no one to teach him how. He must be given a tool by which he can fulfill prophecy and stay alive long enough to learn what is needed.<br /><br />Additionally we've been exposed, through Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima, to the concept that channeling is a function of the soul and that the mind is a function of the body; &quot;The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body&quot; (Shadar Haran, LOC, Prologue). Rand could not channel prior to becoming <i>ta'veren</i>, the moment when LTT's channeling-capable soul was interwoven with his. The melding of the two souls makes Rand's skill and potential equal to LTT's, because it <u>is</u> LTT's ability. This is how Rand uses weaves he knows nothing about; LTT does -- as with Mat, Rand is &quot;tapping&quot; other memories. But, it is Rand's body being used so it is Rand's mind that generally dominates the fusion. As the story progresses, Rand becomes more proficient at channeling, his power level continues to climb towards maximum and somehow LTT's personality begins to manifest, also growing stronger with time. &quot;&#173;the mind is a function of the body,&quot; making Rand's mind dominant, but &quot;the body bends to the soul&quot; so the fused soul fundamentally controls all. The fusion of the two souls is causing both the body, and subsequently the mind(s), to alter to mirror the fusion.<br /><br />Here are some interesting possibilities (I'm sure there may be more): a) the deliberate suppression is being slowly removed, a natural phenomenon allowing LTT's memories and personally traits to begin &quot;leaking&quot; through so Rand can come to accept the skills/knowledge/information, etc. being offered; b) the level of Rand's/LTT's power begins approaching some unknown limit to the strength of the suppression, slowly overcoming it (this would imply that any time LTT is grafted to a soul, the recipient always hears him in their head???); c) the taint is somehow responsible for altering the rules of suppression, wearing the block away, causing it to fail. In this instance other channeling males might also begin &quot;hearing voices&quot; of some kind. Cadsuane points out that hearing voices is a known occurrence in male channelers, &quot;Some men who channel begin to hear voices. It is part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do. Have you heard any?&quot; [CoS, Ch 18, <i>As the Plow Breaks the Earth</i>]. But, it is doubtful they all hear LTT.<br /><br />We may get some additional insight with Birgitte's case (another unique occurrence) at least from the perspective of the story we have. Birgitte is slowly losing her memories, reverting to the normal amnesiac/memory-suppressed state.<blockquote>&quot;Birgitte Silverbow. Faith of the Light, I'm not sure I'm still that woman. So much of what I was and knew has faded like mist beneath the summer sun since my strange new birth. I'm no hero now, only another woman to make my way.&quot; [Birgitte, ACoS, Ch 21, <i>Swovan Night</i>]<br /><br />Would all of her memories go? She did not think she had lost any recently, but how would she know if she had? She could remember bits of the founding of the White tower, pieces of what she and Gaidal had done to help it be founded, but nothing before that. All of her earlier memories were yesterdays' smoke. [Birgitte, KoD, Ch 32, <i>To Keep the Bargain</i>].</blockquote>This might or might not support any of the above ideas (or any alternate views). It does, however, further support the idea that memory function is an issue for HH when they occupy a position in the fabric of reality. The rule of thumb seems to be that remembrance of the past for HH is not allowed (Rand's case is a necessary exception for the scenario) and that such amnesia/suppression will be enforced. Even if (as posited by some) Birgitte's memory loss is a prelude to a possible coming &quot;rebirth&quot;, it merely supports the deliberate repression idea. She wasn't blanked prior to being ripped out of TAR, but her upcoming rebirth will meet the proper criteria.<br /><br />Side note: Could it be possible for Birgitte to be returned to TAR &quot;in the flesh&quot; via an OP Gateway? It would seem to me that this might effectively return her to the state she was in prior to Moggy's actions. More RAFO.<br /><br />The question of whether or not Birgitte could answer the Horn needs to be addressed. We know from the story that only HH (non-incarnated) answer the call. HH attached to a thread, like LTT, do not. Perhaps their situation technically qualifies them as having been &quot;incarnated&quot; well enough to relieve them from the Horn for that time? Birgitte's case is unique: does she qualify as &quot;incarnated&quot; or not? The mention above that her bonding to Elayne might qualify Elayne as <i>ta'veren</i> gives us a confusing mix. If Birgitte is &quot;incarnated&quot;, she will not (perhaps cannot) &quot;answer&quot; the Horn when it is blown and Elayne would not qualify as <i>ta'veren</i>. If Birgitte is not &quot;incarnated&quot;, Elayne might indeed qualify as <i>ta'veren</i> -- Birgitte will probably answer the Horn -- and whatever happens to make Birgitte's response to the Horn possible could end up a very interesting scene. Jordan has indicated, &quot;When Moghedien ripped out Birgitte from T'A'R she 'short-circuited' the Pattern, by bringing in an adult '<u>in the flesh</u>' instead of letting Birgitte join Gaidal Cain the 'normal' way.&quot; [Stockholm Sweden, June 16-18, 1995] [emphasis added]. Maybe that's answers it.<br /><br /><b>5. The Horn of Valere.</b><br /><br />The Horn of Valere is an interesting artifact. Ostensibly its function is to call the HH to fight at Tarmon Gai'don. But, because of the scene at Falme, we know that the HH will answer it <u>any</u> time it is blown. We also know that &quot;incarnated&quot; HH (used to make <i>ta'veren</i>) do not answer (exampled with LTT/Rand). Jordan from TOR Q&amp;A, Dec 23, 2003 thru April 20, 2004:<blockquote>&quot;The Horn was known in the AoL. It was an artifact from an earlier Age. It was never used, partly because the 3rd Age was mostly peaceful and partly because its power was considered a myth. It was lost and thought destroyed during the violence that preceded the War of Power. After its recovery it was included with the Dragon Banner at the Eye of the World because of the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon said it must be.<br /><br />In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.&quot;</blockquote>Other sources from within the story (not least the Falme scene) give info as well:<br /><br />a) Anyone can blow the Horn, including forces of the DO;<br />b) The Horn works for no one else until the sounder's death;<br />c) HH do not fight in the flesh, so the OP cannot affect them.<br /><br />Side note: This last one may answer the question of whether Birgitte is considered &quot;incarnated&quot;. The OP <u>can</u> affect her (her Bonding to Elayne, if nothing else), so she may be &quot;in the flesh&quot; in a way that counts as an incarnated soul? &quot;RAFO.&quot;<br /><br />The scene at Falme may be more unique than many understand. Let us explore it for a moment to see what we can find. Some misunderstand the action because of the nature of HH/<i>ta'veren</i>/the Horn, etc. They believe that because HH interact with the characters that they are present &quot;in the flesh&quot;. Notice, however, that in every other case, all such interactions occurred in TAR. Is this scene at Falme just a stock dramatic convention using misty, mood enhancing special effects like those we see with genies summoned from their bottles or lamps to impress and overawe us? Or, is it something more specific? Notice:<blockquote>Mat's hand shook as he raised the Horn of Valere to his lips.<br /><br />It was a clear note, golden as the horn was golden. The trees around them seemed to resonate with it, and the ground under their feet, the sky overhead. That one long sound <u>encompassed everything</u>.<br /><br />Out of nowhere, <u>a fog began to rise</u>. First thin wisps hanging in the air, then thicker billows, and thicker, until <u>it blanketed the land like clouds</u>.<br />***<br />Rand <u>could not see the trees around them any longer</u>. Mat had lowered the Horn, eyes wide with awe, but the sound of it still rang in Rand's ears. <u>The fog hid everything</u> in rolling waves as white as the finest bleached wool, <u>yet Rand could see</u>. He could see, but it was mad. <u>Falme floated somewhere beneath him</u>, its landward border black with the Seanchan ranks, lightning ripping its streets. <u>Falme hung over his head</u>. There Whitecloaks charged and died as the earth opened in fire beneath their horses' hooves. <br />***<br /><u>Down the billowing fog, as if it were the side of a mountain</u>, rode shapes on horses. At first the dense mists hid more than that, but slowly they came closer, and it was Rand's turn to gasp.<br />***<br />&quot;My name is Rand al'Thor,&quot; he snapped. &quot;You have to hurry. There isn't much time.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Time?&quot; Birgitte said, smiling. &quot;We have <u>all of time</u>.&quot; [tGH, Ch 47, <i>The Grave is No Bar to My Call</i>] [emphases added]</blockquote>We see fogs, mists, spatial distortions. We get the strong sense that linear time is not an issue. In fact, Birgitte's casual comment about having &quot;<u>all of time</u>&quot; is very pointed. HH do literally have all of time. They are non-incarnated souls who, according to Jordan reside outside of time. But, doesn't this scene sound familiar...&#173; similar to descriptions of how things work in TAR? Jordan has given us multiple views of TAR (Min's viewings, various dream-related *<i>angreal</i>, Perrin's &quot;wolf dream&quot;, Egwene's Dreamwalking, etc.), and he has invested a great deal of page space describing to us how TAR works when someone from the waking world goes there. But the blowing of the Horn may be the only good example we have of how things might work if TAR came to the waking world, if the two were overlapped; a &quot;two places at the same time&quot; event on a large scale. With the two areas interwoven (juxtaposed in some way, or their boundaries overlapped) the rules of TAR might then be able to affect the real world on a less limited basis.<br /><br />What happens in TAR is real in the waking world. A person who is injured or dies in TAR has the same thing happen to them for real. So, if TAR and the Waking World are overlapped, if both are in both &quot;places&quot; or states simultaneously, the HH (non-incarnated souls outside of time) who interact with the waking world can interact with it on their terms, according to their rules, as though a huge slice of the &quot;waking&quot; or &quot;living&quot; world were within TAR (not just an individual) and have the effect they (the HH) cause become real. And the HH cannot be defeated because they are not &quot;alive&quot;, in the usual sense. They are only souls, not &quot;in the flesh&quot;. The OP cannot affect them. We've been exposed to how much less force or effect the OP has in TAR; strength of will counts for much more than strength in the OP. HH are powered directly by the Wheel&#161;&#173; they &quot;are part of the Wheel's self-correcting &quot;<u>mechanism</u>&quot;; part of the machine itself (like bolts, gears, levers, or any other part of a machine) perhaps capable of drawing directly on its full power to fuel and aid them -- or perhaps to deny the power that fuels the machine (and consequently themselves) from harming them. For the HH to be harmed by the OP it would be the same as the Wheel allowing part of itself to be damaged by the OP. Not happening...&#173;<br /><br />Next we should look at the hotly contested question of whether Mat is still connected to the Horn. The idea presented to us early on is that the Hornsounder becomes connected to the Horn and anyone else blowing it will find only a normal horn. The sounder's connection is for life; only his/her death (end of the thread) severs the connection and allows someone else to become the next Sounder. We have two possible instances of Mat's &quot;death&quot; and a severing of his connection to the Horn. Has either of these occasions in fact released Mat from that connection?<br /><br />Rhuidean: Mat was hung but Rand resuscitated him. Many have construed this to be a technical death and then declare Mat to be free of the Horn.<br /><br />Others argue, preferring Mat's Rahvin induced &quot;death&quot; in Caemlyn.<br /><br />Arguments both directions to date have merit, but Jordan's words on the subject clear the issue up unambiguously. The WOTFAQ shows this important passage:<blockquote>Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at [Balticon 30, April 5-7, 1996] mentions: &quot;Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, <u>dying</u>, and then living again. Tim Kington reports that, when asked how long Mat hung from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean, RJ replied, 'Long enough to be ALMOST dead' &quot;[post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 26, 2004]. (emphasis added)</blockquote>The &quot;almost dead&quot; comment immediately eliminates the Rhuidean incident from the menu. Mat did not die there (at least he <u>wasn't dead enough</u>) for his Horn connection to be broken. Unfortunately many people miss the essential point of the other statement and construe that since Mat is alive he is still connected to the Horn even then; that somehow Rand's use of balefire in connection with Mat's &quot;living again&quot; keeps him connected, the link intact. RJ's statement is clear: Mat died. Jordan said this <u>fulfills</u> the prophecy. Mat died and the connection has been broken&#161;&#173;period. His &quot;resurrection&quot; with balefire did <u>not</u> reestablish the Horn link.<br /><br />To visualize this, let's examine again the concept of &quot;threads&quot; (no, there's no 'proof' here, just speculation). Mat's thread and his link to the Horn ended with a lightning strike. His thread ceased and so did the Horn link. Because of Rand's balefire, Mat's thread was reestablished but the Horn link was not. Think of it like a broken rope. It is possible to take the two frayed ends and patch them together, returning the rope to useful condition, but the patch remains, a visible sign of where the break occurred (both for Mat's life and for the Horn link).<br /><br />Because balefire undid Rahvin's thread backward in time, his action that killed Mat was undone, making it as though they never happened. This is enough to support the thought that the Horn link was reestablished with the thread; the thread didn't actually cease, so the link didn't either. But,,,&#173; and here's the kicker...&#173; <u>memories</u> of the action remain in the minds of anyone who witnessed it. The paradox this creates is cited as a threat to the Pattern itself and the primary reason both sides in the War of Power ceased using it. The Pattern can only handle so much paradox and its maximum limit was rapid being approached.<br /><br />The patch on Mat's thread is the marker of an activity that supposedly never happened but the Wheel (and others) knows that it did, it's just covering it up, trying to deal with the paradox. The Wheel also cannot erase the memories of witnesses to the event (the break) so must account for the paradox somehow (balance the ledger so to speak -- Jordan does refer to the Wheel as a &quot;fuzzy logic device&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Had Mat's death and &quot;resurrection&quot; occurred without any witnesses, the Wheel might have no paradox to deal with and might well be able to justify retaining Mat's Horn link. But with even one witness, it is required to account for the paradox. In this instance, that paradox can be dealt with by &quot;charging&quot; Mat a price by breaking the Horn link. The link is stopped at that patch where everyone who witnessed the break believes Mat died. The link can only continue along its <u>original</u> connection to Mat and cannot proceed past the patch point. Mat died, and he didn't. Balefire let him &quot;live again&quot;, as prophecy says was supposed to happen, but to balance paradox the remembered &quot;death&quot; requires the link be broken.<br /><br /><b>6. Heroes of the Horn; what are they, really?</b><br /><br />This last bit is very speculative. It has little to nothing about it that is supportable with references, etc. It's just my idea on how the &quot;mechanism&quot; Jordan describes might work, one man's take. Bear with me, because the modern day references needed to describe this idea might be a little confusing, especially for those that don't have much of a technical background.<br /><br />Jordan calls <i>ta'veren</i> &quot;<u>mechanisms</u>&quot;. He also calls the Wheel a &quot;fuzzy logic device.&quot; We've seen that <i>ta'verenness</i> inherently involves attaching souls to threads with Jordan repeatedly using the metaphor of &quot;weaving&quot; (in various forms) to describe it. So, the Wheel can be viewed as though it were some sort of machine (I visualize something like a computer). The attachment of a soul to a thread is a function of the Wheel, a part of its programming like an ongoing diagnostic routine. When it detects something going wrong, when the Pattern is drifting away from design parameters, it activates the correction routine. Consider it like an &quot;auto pilot&quot; navigation system on an aircraft. The routine is programmed with information like altitude, speed, heading, etc. If the plane drifts too far from the programmed course, the auto-pilot routine engages various &quot;servos&quot; (mechanism that let it control the plane) to put the plane back on course. The Wheel has to correct the problem from within the Pattern and has limited access, it can't reach in directly and just fix it. An incarnated soul is that access to which the Wheel attaches the proper corrective routine. This modified device (<i>ta'veren</i>) acts as a carrier, transporting the corrective routine around while it does its work.<br /><br />What we're going to examine here is that corrective routine: the Heroes who reside in TAR waiting their call to action. HH may not be &quot;real&quot;, per se. The HH seem to be more like archetypes with typically &quot;heroic&quot; looks and attributes, not real people. They seem more like &quot;conventions&quot; both literarily for Jordan's use in the stories, and functionally for the Wheel. They are ideas or ideals, templates whose details alter through time as the need for them changes.<br /><br />Hawkwing, Birgitte, and the rest of the Heroes seem to look and act like their latest and/or best known &quot;incarnation&quot;. Any &quot;memory&quot; they have from their last activation remains with them until they are activated for use. That memory is repressed to prevent a variety of undesired consequences/side effects. As a result, a new archetype has an opportunity to form.<blockquote>&quot;Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day.&quot; [Artur Hawkwing, GH, Ch 47, <i>The Grave is No Bar to My Call</i>]</blockquote>Consider you word processor. It probably contains a number of pre-existing templates for various functions; resumes, brochures/manuals, leaflets/flyers, legal pleadings, business faxes/letters, web documents/pages, etc. Your spreadsheet has similar templates for invoices, balance sheets, time cards, loan amortizations, etc. What we know of Horn Heroes are like these templates, each of them designed with a general function in mind, but each use requires detailing. During use a template may get revised. If that revision is significantly more useful than the previous one it can get &quot;saved&quot; in place of the old file. The old HH template is &quot;forgotten&quot; in favor of the new one.<br /><br />The same &quot;Heroes' don't recur cycle after cycle: Birgitte as &quot;Birgitte&quot; does not fit the need in all times, in all places. Sometimes a variation of &quot;Birgitte&quot; is needed. When this is the case, the <i>ta'veren</i> created has an opportunity to have the name, face and other aspects of the &quot;carrier&quot; soul used as the &quot;file name/description&quot; when the revised template gets saved.<br /><br />On a different note... &#173;We know that Jordan had extensive experience with RPG's when he was younger. He even helped design the WoT RPG scenarios that <i>Wizards of the Coast</i> produced for their d20 system, and had extensive input and control over the computerized WoT game. Perhaps this previous RPG experience helped shape his concept. Perhaps these Hero templates are some sort of character class/kit? The general parameters are the same for each at its root while individual Heroes end up with different names as they are detailed out in use? Just an idea&#161;&#173;<br /><br />&quot;The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legends. Legends become myth and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.&quot; This simple but especially apropos idea can apply to HH as well. Reread the above quote again -- only substitute the word &quot;Heroes&quot; for the word &quot;memories&quot; and you'll see how it might work. This is the template replacement; when one is so old that it is insufficiently inspirational or insufficiently applicable to an Age, it is updated or replaced with something more germane to the Age.<br /><br />In our own world we have examples of these kinds of aging and changing archetypes/templates: King Arthur, Robin Hood and The Count of Monte Cristo. These templates are still somewhat germane, even to our modern time, and continue to exist in some form. Older ones like King Arthur and Robin Hood are fading in their usefulness, their impact on the psyche of the masses less poignant than in centuries past, but enough for the template to continue in use, at least inspirationally. Newer ones like Monte Cristo &#168;C even if totally fictional -- are fresher and more relevant.<br /><br />Are these truly different archetypes, each with its own personification? Or are they the same archetype template modified through time for contemporary appropriateness? If the former, then each of these &quot;people&quot; would be a separate, specific &quot;Hero of the Horn&quot; under Jordan's rules. If the latter, then we see one persona (template) changing with the grinding of the Wheel as it slowly works one archetype/template image out of existence so that it is forgotten in time for reinvention and reuse later. Unfortunately we may never know.<br /><br /><b>Finally</b><br /><br />I know it's a lot to absorb, but I think that some thought will show the general merit. I know there are probably flaws (logical hiccoughs, analogy gaffs, etc.) but the general tenor of the idea seems to hold water pretty well. Let's talk about it.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-05-28 09:58:17
subject: Symbolism - The Wheel and the Serpent
body:
<p>We all know the trademark symbol of the Wheel of Time: A seven-spoked wheel with a snake slithering in between, swallowing its own tail and forming a figure eight. After a long inspection and a little thought, I&#8217;ve formed a theory about what this symbolism might indicate, just for fun. <br /><br />What do we already know? <br /><br />The wheel symbolises the Wheel of Time, and each of its spokes symbolises an Age. The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend, yadda yadda yadda. As time goes on, the Wheel turns, and it weaves its age lace that are made up of the threads of people&#8217;s lives. Sometimes a very important thread, a ta&#8217;veren (or three), is woven, and threads are weaved around them. An Age goes for an indeterminate amount of time, but it is certain that the Age will come again, or repeat, if not in quite the way they did the first time. (I&#8217;ll come back to Ages later.) <br /> <br />The snake is the Great Serpent, a symbol often associated with Aes Sedai, as they wear a golden Great Serpent ring on their left ring finger when they graduate to Accepted and on any finger when they become real Aes Sedai. It is a symbol of the eternal and cyclic nature of time. In real life, it is called an ouroboros. Snakes also shed their skin, which can be seen as a regeneration or rebirth, similar to the coming again of an Age. <br /><br />But, what else can a snake symbolise? Snakes are often regarded as slimy, slippery and deceitful creatures, and sometimes evil. This parallels to Aes Sedai as well, because although they cannot lie, they slide around that and have become infamously untrustworthy, using people for their own ends and not telling the whole truth (snakes have forked tongues, i.e.: two ends. Geddit?). Black Ajah especially are synonymous with snakes. In the Bible, a snake deceives Eve into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, which gave the human race original sin. However, snakes can also be seen as guardians or protectors. The Snake King protected Buddha from the elements as he meditated and eventually reached enlightenment, and snakes are sometimes sculptured as guardians for temples. Aes Sedai mostly have good intentions, even if the way they go about achieving them may be morally questionable. The Dragon is often seen as a snake with legs, and is also the champion of the Light. Snakes are venomous, but that same poison can also be used to find an antivenom (like Healing with the Power?). Suppose that Aes Sedai are snakes who have given up their poison (as in taking the Oath not to use the Power as a weapon), but still manage to squeeze things out of people and slither artfully around binding Oaths. <br /><br />Where else in the Wheel of Time do we see the symbol of a snake? Ah, yes: the icon used in chapters where the Forsaken centre or make an appearance. There&#8217;s no doubt that here the snake is symbolising evil, often with more than one meaning to their ends, using their poison without hesitation, and preying on each other as well as the foxes and wolves and dragons, amongst others. There&#8217;s also the game of Snakes and Foxes, two very sly and very dangerous animals which you must avoid at all costs. And the snakey people, the Aelfinn, who let you ask three questions and punish you if you ask the wrong ones. <br /><br />So, we have attached to the Serpent: Aes Sedai, Forsaken, and Aelfinn, as well as the concepts of rebirth and eternity, evil, protection and poison and healing. Overall, the themes of evil and mistrust are overt.<br /> <br />Now we look at the Wheel. Remember, each spoke is an Age. And our Great Serpent that tangles itself within the rule touches three spokes, or Ages, in particular. Seeing as we know very little about any Ages beside the Second Age, or the Age of Legends, the Third Age, the one the characters exist in now, and small tidbits about the Fourth Age, the Age prophesised to come after the Last Battle.<br /> <br />So, the Serpent touches these three ages in particular. What could it mean? <br /><br />One theory might be the presence of Aes Sedai in these Ages. In the Age of Legends, Aes Sedai performed amazing feats with the One Power, man and woman working together. In the current Age, the Aes Sedai are present, although only as women, and are slowly rediscovering abilities thought to be lost at the Breaking. And the Age yet to come, the Age long past, still remains in mystery, but unless all the Aes Sedai fighting in Tarmon Gaidon die, it&#8217;s almost a certainty there will be Aes Sedai. The other four Ages may lose the ability to channel all together (the Age of Legends is obviously similar to the distant future, and the Third Age is like our medieval period; perhaps in between is like today, where the One Power or magic doesn&#8217;t exist, or is seen as a myth).  <br /><br />Then there is the snake=evil. Obviously the touch on the Second Age is the opening of the Dark One&#8217;s prison and the formation of the Forsaken, and all the bad stuff that&#8217;s happened in the Third Age is self-explanatory. What might happen in the future is unknown. What is interesting is where the Serpent begins to swallow itself: right above the spoke that in this case symbolises the current Age. This might indicate the Last Battle between Light and Shadow, and there are two possible ending to that: the Light triumphs or the Shadow enslaves the world. The way I see it, there&#8217;s also two possible ways the snake can go. The first is that it continued to swallow itself, putting increasing pressure on the spokes of the wheel. If it finally succeeds in eating itself (at the sacrifice of its own body) the wheel brakes, and I recall the Dark One wanting to &#8216;break the Wheel and bring an end to Time itself,&#8217; which fits quite nicely. The second way it can go is that the snake is repelled, coughing up its own tail and slithering away, relinquishing its hold on the wheel, which is the case if the Light wins the war and the Shadow is gone forever (or at least in that form). That would mean it has no touch on the next Age, and all is well until it slithers back into the spokes and begins creating havoc in the Second and Third Ages again. <br /><br />So, in conclusion, based on mythology and symbolism of numerous cultures and religions, as well as that within the Wheel of Time universe itself, I believe that the Great Serpent may also symbolise the Shadow touching the world, or the influence of Aes Sedai and the One Power, as well as its usual representation of cyclic time in conjunction with the Wheel of Time. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-07-04 03:04:23
subject: Last Battle - The Bore
body:
<p><br />Theory of the Last Battle &#8211; To Heal the Bore<br /><br />My theory is that the Bore could be restored through the newly discovered Talent of Healing Severance through male and female cooperation.  I base this idea upon these foundations.<br /><br />1. Healing Stilling or Gentling was unknown of in the Age of Legends. <br /><br />&#8226;	It was considered irreversible in the AoL to restore the ability of channeling to someone that lost it.  This would explain why the idea never manifested before.<br /><br />2. Healing Stilling and Gentling is possible now.  <br /><br />&#8226;	We know that both female and male channelers are now able to restore the ability to channel and it is suspected that the ability to fully restore the other resides with the opposite affinity.<br /><br />3.  Newton's 3rd Law; One Power vs. True Power<br /><br />&#8226;	RJ was a physicist and through the idea of saidar and saidin he has implemented his assertion in Newton's 3rd Law in that every action has an opposite and equal reaction.<br /><br />When the Bore was sealed, a counter stroke corrupted saidin while saidar remained untainted.  Had women joined the fray, saidar likely would have been tainted as well.  The taint has apparently been removed but we have yet to ascertain any other impact.  <br /><br />My theory is that when The Creator fashioned the DO's prison, it used the One Power to counter balance the Dark One's True Power and that the Bore can be likened to a &quot;severing&quot; of the One Power's balanced constraint to the Dark One's energy at a particular place in the Pattern.  In order to correct it, the forces of Light will need male and female channelers cooperating in a circle to Heal the severed &#8220;hole&#8221; that the Bore represents.  Remember that during Nyneave&#8217;s delving of Logain, she first thought of his Gentling as a hole, but then felt &#8220;what seemed was continuous was not, that what seemed smooth and straight was really skirting around an absence.&#8221;  Also, it should be noted that RJ used the word &#8220;bore&#8221; during one of the witness Aes Sedai&#8217;s criticism of Nyneave&#8217;s accomplishment upon Siuan and Leanne; and we all know that RJ is an accomplished foreshadower.<br /><br />As saidin is now clean (not sure if that matters, but probably), it and its counterpart, saidar, can now be used to construct a wholly pure &#8220;bridge&#8221; over the severed section that constitutes the Bore.  Recall that Nyneave unconsciously refers to Logain&#8217;s Gentling as a &#8220;cut&#8221; that required a bridge to make whole.  <br /><br />Obviously, Healing the stilled and gentled is a newly discovered ability that will result in much study and theoretical application in regard to Power strengths, overall strength in the Power, and other Power related idiosyncrasies.  However, as both male and female channelers can be regenerated by either affinity, it is highly likely that the Bore can be Healed in the same manner.<br /><br />This theory addresses the ancient Aes Sedai&#8217;s lack of ability to adequately repair the Bore and presents a valid argument for a contemporary resolution utilizing the newly discovered ability to Heal Stilling and Gentling.  Without further information from additional books, this theory stands ground.  <br /><br />Again, OBVIOUSLY, there is going to be a lot of chaos at the time and place of the Last Battle, but this seems a plausible solution.  It may require what other theories project as a clearing away of the original Seal in order to &#8220;cleanse&#8221; the Bore of the tainted seals and establish a clean &#8220;bridge&#8221; that the DO cannot affect over time.   <br /><br />I encourage any debate and look forward to your responses.<br /><br />Thank you! <br /><br />FYI &#8211; I believe anyone&#8217;s belief that Bale Fire would play any role whatsoever in the Last Battle is absolutely inane.  Bale Fire destroys threads in the Pattern and is recognized as universally dangerous by both factions GOOD and BAD.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2009-08-26 04:12:13
subject: What will Rand REALLY do after the Last Battle?
body:
<p>Alright. With so much debate/mystery/anxiety over post-TG content, I&#8217;vedecided to reveal what will really happen. I don&#8217;t know how you haven&#8217;tpicked up on it&#8212;it&#8217;s been almost painfully obviously what RJ has beenplanning for the end of the series. The excess of women, the fact thatat least one person is drinking liquor of some sort in almost everychapter, Aludra&#8217;s invention, and Rand&#8217;s missing hand can only mean onething for our favorite foursome post-TG: They become swashbucklin&#8217;pirates!<br /><br />Hard-core theorists, suck on this. <br /><br />TITLE: Lord Of Chaos<br /><br />CHAPTER: Dreams and Nightmares<br /><br />---"Thelion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on theboat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but theworld not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and theguardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of ablade." ---<br /><br />Obviously, we know who's on the boat. The very factthe boat exists confirms this theory! What else would a man of violenceand death such as Rand do with a boat, besides assault other people? Ofcourse there will be more battles-that's like the whole point of piracy!<br /><br />Guardians?That's easy. Haven't you ever seen the movie "The Guardian?" The coastguard will be after Cap'n Hook, his parrot Lews Therin, and his firstmates, respectively, Elayne the Scalawag, Avienhar-har-har, and ofcourse scurvy Mer-Min.<br /><br />Servants? Maybe the four of them will start up a slave trade from Shara. They&#8217;ve gotta fund their piracy somehow.<br /><br />Who's blade? Why, Rand's cutlass of course! Maybe a rapier...<br /><br /><br />TITLE: Lord Of Chaos<br /><br />CHAPTER: 19, Matter&#8217;s Of Toh<br /><br />---"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three womenwhose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way andthen the other." ---<br /><br /><br />Why is the scale tilting? Both sidesare equal, but they're all on a ship, so the rocking motion of the boatmakes the scale go up and down. Duh. <br /><br />Why couldn't the wisewomen see their faces? Probably because the parrot or the rigging orsomething impaired their view. Maybe they were just turned away. No bigdeal.<br /><br /><br />It's quite simple. Rand handily finishes off the DO,hands off all the power to Logain, sails off into the sunset, and allfour of them have a jolly good time going insane and growing oldtogether, cavorting around the ship naked, drinking too much rum,frightening seanchan ships, and plundering some good ol' Sea FolkPorcelain. Don&#8217;t forget regular skirmishes with his nemesis,One-Eye-Mat and his crew-o-two. Our beloved Cap&#8217;n has to be wary duringthose battles, Tuon is a crack shot with a cann&#8230; er&#8230; dragon.<br /><br />Anything to add? I'm sure there's more evidence out there.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


