# w_comment

created: 2003-10-21 19:37:03
subject: <b>As much as I hate to resurrect the dead...</b>
body:
It would be foolish, taking this under context, to assume that the monotheism &quot;big three&quot; is the litimus test for every fable, myth, folklore to be credited (and discredited).  <br /><br />If we were to look at the 7 ages, my theory would be more akin to considering the different methods of human &quot;evolution&quot; (or &quot;devolution&quot; as is it's won't)<br /><br />You have:<br />Mysticism<br />Civilization<br />Feudalism<br />Renaissance<br />Spirituality<br />Technology<br />Barbarism<br /><br />The thing i think would be an underlying method is that in each age, that which predisposes the age will bring about it's destruction. I.E.  The one-power was used and was the cursor of the Age of Legends--and brought upon it's downfall, so now it's basically a semi-villified thing (any male channeler gives another character the eebiegeebies.)  It basically went into the more feudalistic way of the Third Age.  Where RJ means to take this, i'm not sure.  <br /><br />Going based upon the way i've laid it out, Mysticism would be like the druidic and other &quot;pagan&quot; so-called cults.  Looking for reasons and trying to explain why.  <br /><br />That leads to Civilization as beliefs become a cornerstone of the age, much like the greeks and romans, lots of philosopy and asking questions on the human condition--much like the age of legends, but from rot within it goes to...<br /><br />Feudalism, much like Randland is now.  A lot of nations, each squabbling with each other, and lords and ladies vying in their powerplays (Daes D'mar anyone?).  Seing Fel's School, and the discoveries, it would lead into...<br /><br />Renaissance, in which Methods shifting away from powers begin and into human ingenuity.  Since the break is not complete, and there's still the &quot;unknown factor&quot; of a lot of mechanisms as the way the universe works, it usually gets distilled into a simple good/evil duality (God/Satan).  This leads to...<br /><br />Spirituality, which can be marked by the Spanish conquistadores and missionaries out to spread &quot;the word of god&quot;.  Everyone adheres to the aformentioned dogma, which as discoveries continue, leads into the questioning of said deities and into...<br /><br />Technology, in which we put all out faith into machinations.  We develop things that would, in other ages, look like god-like powers.  However, this isn't civilization, where you have people looking for the good of mankind, so usually some power-hunrgy imbeciles blow us into oblivion, where we go to...<br /><br />Barbarism--the slate is clean and we start over--back to nater, as it were, until our human instincts for questioning and aksing what makes thigns work takes over, and back to mysticism we go.<br /><br />Theory, yes, but what is this forum about? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When Day and Dream unite the end is near...<br />...you better be prepared.<br /><br />~Blind Guardian</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 13:57:32
subject: <b>thank you Redturtleneck....</b>
body:
... for pointing out that rand cannot be based on god/christ in anyway and that people who have never touched the bible should not be comparing WoT too... the only thing im more obsessed with than WoT is Jesus...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-18 10:34:39
subject: <b>Similar landmass</b>
body:
I really like the idea that Randland will become what we know as Earth in another Age.<br /><br />I just thought I'd support the arguement by pointing out the VERY similar landmass. If you look in the 'World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time' book it has a map of the entire planet and all the islands.<br /><br />Seanchan- becomes America<br />Randland- becomes Europe<br />Shara- becomes Asia<br />Aiel Waste- becomes Africa<br />Isle of Madmen- becomes Australia (why bother changing the name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> )<br />Sea Folk Isles- becomes Phillapenes/Caribbean<br /><br />I know it's a fairly weak thing on it's own, but I think it could be another point to add to the Randland = Earth arguement.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 05:11:17
subject: <b>WoT World is our own</b>
body:
First off, I can't use that word to describe the world in the books(it hurts me).<br /><br />Now, why the WoT world is our own. First off, it's all based off of stereotype(I don't believe these). But that's why it works so well in the explaining - there's a clear stereotype in place.<br /><br />Obviously, the main continent is Europe. If you didn't see it from the Spanish Peninsula and France(Tarabon/Arad Doman) or Italy (Illian) or Mayene / Tear (Greece, etc), there are some other clear reasons why it must be Europe, based off of the other areas. Also, I think that England is that north-western isle, I can't remember what it's called or which one it is(though it might be Tremalking...)<br /><br />Seanchan is America. The sending of Hawkwing's son over with armies is very colonial, etc.<br /><br />The Aiel Waste is the Middle East. They veil themselves, etc. It's an easy way to write off the Middle East as savages, or maybe the Jews(as Aiel are white and were originally from Europe, much as the Aiel were originally from the main continent). Who knows what stereotype was used.<br /><br />Shara is Asia, probably China, as China was a closed port area for many years until the American Navy opened it up in the 1850s. I had considered India or the South-East Asian Peninsula as candidates for Shara, but the first was colonized by about four different European countries(before the English consolidated) and the second was never walled off, especially after Singapore was opened by the English(and Dutch, I think).<br /><br />Now for the more difficult(supposedly) parts. The Sea Folk are Africans, probably the Moors(Othello). They must be Meditteranean (ie, southern sea bordering the main continent) Africans, and the Moroccans, Libyans, Western Saharans and Egyptians are too Arab-seeming. However, in the 1500s and 1600s the Moors came as far north as Spain(partial explanation of Domani darker skin?). The fact that they're on isles doesn't really help this matter much, but I can't really explain that part too well, to be honest.<br /><br />Isle of Madmen... this one kept me guessing. It's Southeast of the main continent, so it does point to Australia, but it would never make sense on a European map to point to Australia, not only because of distance but also because of a good deal of other land in the way. In this case, it's Saudi Arabia, India, South-East Asia and Indonesia(in that order). So I'll write it off as Australia, but it could be, assuming for tectonic shifts, Saudi Arabia or Egypt or something. Probably Israel/Palestine - they're all crazy for not figuring out a solution to the problem by now(bad joke, I know).<br /><br />The southern isles could well be the Azores as well, or many of the others in the Atlantic, ie Aryth, Ocean.<br /><br />Here's one thing I haven't seen mentioned that I find interesting. Note that in Europe, the Western coastline goes further west to accomodate Spain in the South, but in WoT, it doesn't. Also note that while I said the Waste was the Middle East, the real Middle East is SouthEAST of Europe. I think that what appears to be NorthWEST on the WoT map would correlate to North in reality, ie you have to turn the map clockwise about 45 degrees(if you start with WoT map to get real map. If you start with a real map, rotate counterclockwise 45 degrees to get WoT). This also explains why Seanchan is sometimes considered southwest by WoT standards.<br /><br />Other random notes:<br /><br />Cindaking is either Crete or Cyprus.<br />Mountains of Mist are those separating France and Spain.<br />Aile Dashar might be the England isles(?)<br />Norway/Sweden/rest of Scandinavia is basically the Blight(damn Vikings - they went and colonized Greenland, which you will see is part of the Seanchan Blight - yes, Seanchan has a Blight. Check the Guide's map).


created: 2005-07-03 01:09:59
subject: <b>Nice post, I agree, now beat this argument as to why</b>
body:
Me, personally, I agree with this post 100%. Here's why:<br /><br />1. It is a  FANTASY world created by a man who lives, and is knowledgeable of, today's world.<br /><br />2. Taking #1 into concideration, it is EXTREMELY likely that RJ has 'woven' his fantasy tale so that it includes our world, thus giving it much more credibility/readability.<br /><br /><br />Those of you who say that it is impossible or this or that other naysaying are forgetting that writers really only have our world to go off of when creating a fantasy world.  It is excedingly difficult, if not impossible, to create something totally from scratch. (memory fails to draw up whether or not I've read something like this).<br /><br />So, wrapping this up, yes I believe that Randland is our past/future within the reality created by RJ.  And my saying that doesn't mean I'm heartily awaiting the coming of the AoL it just means that I really, really like what RJ has done with the place and I can't wait for books 11 and 12.


created: 2005-11-30 13:40:54
subject:
<b>Close, but no cigar.  Pipe, anyone? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I like the theory, but I like this one better, plus, I &quot;believe&quot; in it.  (I put &quot;believe&quot; in quotes because I'm referring to a FANTASY here, people! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />http://www.tarvalon.net/library.asp?article=74


created: 2002-03-27 20:53:02
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
Don't forget Berelain touching Perrin in WH - when she thought he'd lost his soul.<br /><br />Not the usual groping  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-28 02:06:41
subject: <b>I'd always assumed</b>
body:
that she used a well. This in no way denies the posted theory, just a different reason to deny any lightfriend theories floating around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 10:56:26
subject: <b>guess again....</b>
body:
assuming that she used a well would also be assuming the the Ogier were not only aware of the existence of wells but also knew she had one with her, since they asked her to touch him.  That's so big a stretch it's ridiculous, but obviously those who are determined to believe Verin channeled are gonna believe it no matter what.  I have given up on this ever being put to rest for good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 12:44:31
subject: <b>the Touch?</b>
body:
&quot;and maintained the Touch longer&quot;<br /><br />Is the capital there in the book?  If so, it definitely sounds like there is a established method called Touch to detect the presence/non-presence of a soul and that it doesn't involve channeling (Sheriam embraces the Source later).<br /><br />The theory of Verin owning a well and using it casually in the stedding never made much sense to me.  There would be a clue in the scene that something unusual happened, which is not the case.  The polite Ogier would have been slightly embarassed to ask Verin to touch the soulless, someone in the party or among the Ogier would have raised an eyebrow, etc.  <br /><br />Why would the Ogier Elders assume that Verin had a well anyway.  We know that ter'angreal performing the exact same function are extremely uncommon, almost unheard of. If Verin had a well, that would be a most unusual situation for the Elders to face and Verin herself would have been hard-pressed to hide her surprise that they ask her to perform a feat that required the Power in a stedding.<br />If the Ogier knew about the existence of wells, I doubt they would be so casual about them as to ask an Aes Sedai to channel in their presence without uneasy explanations or ceremony - both Ogier and Aes Sedai would want to keep that a secret from other visitors.<br />


created: 2002-03-28 17:29:01
subject: <b>Maybe..</b>
body:
Maybe this is an example of some of the benefits that Aes Sedai get from the warder bond.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 08:43:28
subject: <b>Light Friends</b>
body:
I know this is going off the beaten track, but surely anyone who does not support the DO (Forsaken, Black Ajah, Dark Friends etc) is technically a Light Friend, because they all worship the Creator and Light. So, Light Friends exist, but they're everyday decent folk, not anyone special. Oh yeah, Verin didn't do any channeling of any kind in the Stedding.


created: 2002-03-31 22:28:05
subject: <b>Verin channeling in the stedding</b>
body:
She could have possibly channeled in the stedding if she<br />was wearing a well that stores the power, like the one<br />they use in Far Madding in the counsels chamber.  So she<br />could have channeled. Nice try.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />= bubba


created: 2002-04-01 11:04:23
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
for not reading anyone else's comments before posting your own, I'm sure they appreciate it. Both damookster and Dom have pointed out that the Ogier actually asked Verin to touch him, if she had needed to channel to feel it they wouldn't have asked. Therefore, while she might have a well that we don't know about (though it seems highly unlikely, surely we'd have had a hint at it, though I suppose we might be missing something obvious), she didn't use it in the stedding as she didn't need to.


created: 2002-04-01 20:16:25
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
with Three in a Boat. Verin may or may not have a well, but even if she did she didn't use it in the stedding. ( I strongly doubt the existance of Verin's Well, but that doen't mean she couldn't have one. )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 18:21:57
subject: <b>Delving</b>
body:
Dom, what you say as Touch is actually called Delving if i'm not mistaken ( maybe i am ! lmao) and it dosent require channeling what so ever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 12:33:01
subject: <b>I would also like to point out...</b>
body:
<br />...that there is no evidence that a well would work in a stedding.  We know they work in Far Madding, but the reason that channeling is not possible there is because of &quot;artificial&quot; means, not the &quot;natural&quot; properties of a Stedding.  So far, the has been no incident to indicate that wells can be used everywhere.  And as we know the waygates had to be created outside the stedding, this seems like something that could have been circumvented by using a well, which indicates that they possibly would not work inside that environment.  Of course there is no evidence for or against the use of wells in a Stedding, but the possibility definately exists that they would not work.<br /><br />//i\\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 12:52:44
subject: <b>Good point, icon</b>
body:
<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 13:20:38
subject: <b>Delving</b>
body:
-----&quot;&quot;what you say as Touch is actually called Delving if i'm not mistaken ( maybe i am ! lmao) and it dosent require channeling what so ever.&quot;<br /><br />I might be mistaken as well, but I always thought Delving was a complementary Talent to Healing, using the Power to search for someone's injury or illness.


created: 2002-04-04 00:06:38
subject: <b>innate sensativity?</b>
body:
Delving is a talent... but a talent with weaving... it needs the power.<br /><br />It could have something to do with the sensitivity one gets with learning to channel (much like detecting a trolloc or other tainted beast), sort of like how Nan and El could sense the &quot;evil&quot; from the seal of the DO prison in FoH.  That didn't even require Nan to channel to feal (and she couldn't even sense another woman channel through her block).<br />


created: 2002-04-05 09:30:31
subject: <b>Delving schmelving....</b>
body:
There have been a couple of cases where it has been shown that talents are not necessarily dependant upon the ability to channel (eg. Min).  My theory is that there is a talent to detect health and well-being *without* channelling, and that originally delving was only used by people without this talent, or to supplement it.  Possibly Aes Sedai (mistakenly) believe that delving often enough gives one a &quot;resonance&quot; that  enables them to detect health without delving, but it in fact activates the talent??<br /><br />Rambling and thinking as I go.  Sorry if it doesn't make sense.<br /><br />Zellex


created: 2002-04-08 03:51:03
subject: <b>hmmmmmmm</b>
body:
It seems that no body has any evidence of what delving really is....<br /><br />I'll try to expound on what it is, although there isnt much !!<br /><br /><br />excerpt from &quot;The Guide&quot;, &quot;Talents&quot; P299.<br /><br />&quot;.....Others such as Foretelling - the ability to foretell future events, but in a general way - and Delving - the locating of ores and occaisonally their removal from the ground - are rare.&quot;<br /><br />(strange, looks like i'm totally wrong!)<br /><br />And Touch...well there isn't even a mention of it in the guide.<br />But in tGH, there is an excerpt form &quot;Among The Elders&quot; P515 that says.<br /><br />&quot;'Trayal was one of the last among us to go along the ways,' Alar said softly. 'He came out as you see him. Will you touch him Verin?'<br />Verin gave her a long look, then rose and strode to Trayal. He did not move as she laid her hands on his wide chest, not even a flicker of an eye to acknowledge her touch.&quot;<br /><br />Now this dosent say that she channelled, tho in a stedding she cannot. All she did was touch him in a pysical sense then do what Aes Sedai do, to touch/delve whatever it is.<br /><br />These are the only times i can recall it ever being discussed in the series, (but then, its a huge series isnt it !)<br /><br />Does anybody else have any more evidence (if thats what its called)?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 06:34:03
subject: <b>Just a form of Delving</b>
body:
Verin didn't channel in the <i>stedding</i>. She used whatever ability Sheriam did. It has been said before and I think the 96% majority speaks for itself.<br /><br />If she had a Well, we would have to ask why she had it in the first place and why she would use it so frivolously. well are only useful in <i>Steddings</i>. I don't think Verin would have known that she would be visiting one. The Ways have been out of bounds for years. That was the only reason they went there. If she carried it all the time, I think it would have been mentioned by now. Seccondly, the Ogier Elder would have shown if she thought Verin's reaction was odd. She didn't. Lastly, why would she go through the trouble of stealing a well and go and go and use it so absent-mindedly. Surely a Well is a last resort? SHE DID NOT HAVE A WELL. SHE DID NOT CHANNEL!<br /><br />If she didn't channel, then what did she do? Well, personally I think that this is Delving. Remember that Egwene was taught as a <i>damane</i> to sense different types of metals without actually channeling. This would be the AoL type of Delving. Is it so strange that Verin should be able to sense Trayal without touching or channeling either? It's just a different use of the same Talent. Additionally, Verin considers herself the best at Delving in the whole Tower. That would make it even more believable... <br /><br />Well, I've always been convinced. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 20:08:59
subject: <b>Or maybe she did something else</b>
body:
Going on the theory that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, is it possible that when she touched the poor soulless Ogier that he didn't react in any way.  Perhaps that is how she was able to tell.  Or perhaps she really does have powers beyond any Aes Sedai.<br />       Every other explanation requires channeling, which is supposedly not allowed.  Mine uses natural intuition.  Take your pick. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-02 21:55:39
subject: <b>Not bad...</b>
body:
But really, I agree with whoever it was that suggested it was like Min's ability.  Or to continue examples, <br />Perrin's wolves or Hurin's &quot;sniffing&quot;.  However, I think it's subtly different.  For example, that it is merely a heightened<br />sensitivity to certain things (such as in this case, the Ogier's soul), or more simply, since Alar nodded to Verin's <br />statement, the loss of one's actual...everything...could be something that can be detected by anyone that has...<br />everything... inside (if they knew what they were looking for).<br /><br />Sorry if some comments were the same as someone else's, I may have missed a few while I was skimming through<br />them...


created: 2002-06-27 11:28:28
subject: <b>HMMM.....</b>
body:
Is it not possible that Verin might have one of those well ter'angreal that nynaeve and cadsuane wear?


created: 2002-08-07 02:15:12
subject: <b>Why do you even bother reading theories????</b>
body:
Tarheelsman71: I don't understand. How is it that yoiu supposedly came here and posted a message in an attempt to contribute to this discussion, and completely neglected to read anything that was said before your post!? At least half of the 22 comments above mentioned the possibility that Verin used a Well. As I read down the page, it was brought up as a possibility, then refuted, then someone else suggested it, and it was refuted again, using the previous arguments.  If you at least had some new evidence to promote the use of a Well, that would be one thing, but you just come in and say &quot;Hmmm... Maybe she was using a well like Nynaeve and Cadsuane,&quot; like you were the first person in the world to think of this possibility!<br /><br />Now, I don't mean to attack you personally, but I've noticed this on many different theory message boards (in fact, it happened earlier here, which is probably just proof that I'm wasting my breath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> ), and I just couldn't hold my tongue any longer. Please, please, please, at least skim other people's responses to see if you're actually contributing new instead of just repeating what has been mentioned several times before.<br /><br />As to the theory, I completely agree. No channeling was necessary. We've seen responses from three people who have made physical contact with soulless beings. They're all mentioned above, so I won't go into detail, but Sheriam wasn't channeling when she touched a Gray Man, and she remarked that it felt weird. Slayer, who CAN'T channel, also thought that the Gray Man felt cold and empty. Also, it's been alluded to, but not directly pointed out, that apparently these Ogier (who CAN'T channel) also knew that their soulless friend would feel different to the touch. Presumably they have touched him and felt the emptiness denoting the lack of a soul.<br /><br />I think this is more than enough evidence to conclude that ANY person who touches ANYONE without a soul will notice this tangible difference. Verin didn't need to channel or even have a Talent. Otherwise, the Ogier would not have expected her to feel anything. It's at least the most reasonable explanation.


created: 2003-01-08 21:25:26
subject: <b>oh i know i should have checked this in the books but anyways..</b>
body:
Ok i am not at home right now so i don't have the books at hand, but as i remeber it that ogier without a soul were brought outside the stedding to the waygate as a last reason that they shouldn't enter the waygate, if this is so (it was quite a time since i read dragin reborn) then it should not be a problem to channel there (not asuming that she did channel though.)<br /><br />please correct me if i am wrong<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">blood and bloody keyboard<br />- i did spell it right, but my keyboard didn't..</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 09:58:29
subject: <b>It is not a Talent</b>
body:
Slayer in WH, touched the Gray Man and he noted the same thing as Sheriam amd Verin. Now, unless one of u thinks Slayer can channel Saidin, when he very likely can't, otherwise he'd've used it by now, than it's not channeling.


created: 2003-05-28 16:00:01
subject: <b>A side note</b>
body:
This is jsut an itneresting little bit of info. I did a search on the wotmania search, on a hunch. Not one single instance showed up with Verin and saidar. They aren't mentioned together. It never specifically says anything about her embracing saidar, or being surroudned by the glow of it ect. Coincedence perhaps, but perhaps not.


created: 2003-09-13 14:06:33
subject: <b>don't forget ..</b>
body:
Nobody has mentioned Moiraine's reaction to Mat in tEotW when she finds him in Caemlyn.  She barely enteres the room with everyone before she yells to get away from him or don't touch him, or something to that extent.  She didn't have to touch Mat to sense that there was something REALLY wrong with him.<br /><br />I agree with whoever stated that it is something gained from the warder bond - the ability to sense shadowspawn, or evil, or something being 'wrong'.  Of course, it could be that all AS have the ability.<br /><br />Havn't any of you ever gotten a really creepy feeling from a stranger you run into that something is 'wrong' with the person... that you need to get away from them ... a spiritual sense, so to say?  You don't necessarily have to channel or touch someone to know that something is not right with them.  Since Aes Sedai can channel, they are more in tune to things of that nature.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-04 18:56:25
subject: <b>Verin didn't Channel!!!!!</b>
body:
When your soul is not in your body, ANYONE who knows what to look for can sense it!!!!!!!!<br />Quote, Berelain, to Perrin: &quot;'You slept like a man already dead. [Annoura] said  you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many  blankets were piled on you. I felt it, as well, when I touched you'&quot; [Winters Heart:  5, Flags, 145]<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chuck chuck bo buck, banana fana fo fu-...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-19 04:10:53
subject: <b>Interesting Point...</b>
body:
I was reading through the comments and before anyone mentioned that anyone touching someone without a soul will feel the difference and after the Ogier asked Verin to touch the souless one... I had a funny thought. It's not right as I read on but it's amusing.<br /><br />The Ogiers asked Verin to touch the souless one because come on, everyone's &quot;afraid&quot; of Aes Sedai in one way or another. We know that Ogiers don't like Aes Sedia too much, they don't hate them but they do not like the One Power. So, normal people, or Ogiers for example, will flinch or shudder or shund away when an Aes Sedai lays their hand on ya. :p  I mean come on, if an Aes Sedai places her hands on your chest, wouldn't you move away? You won't want her touching you, with or without the power. So the souless Ogier didn't respond to Verin's touch, they knew he haven't got a soul like any other Ogier. Make sense?<br /><br />lol, of course it doens't. Because it's only something humorous. I do believe it is more or less instinct that allows a person to &quot;feel&quot; that something is wrong. With all the evidence produces, Sheridam and Verin, even Berelien (sp) when they touched someone without a soul, they feel the difference. Perrin's got a soul, but his was just wandering around.<br /><br />Channelers like Sheridam and Verin, even though they did not embrace the power, understands such things as having no soul. When you embrace the Source, EVERYTHING is more distinct, your sense are sharper, you feel yourself more full or life. the exstacy of the Source is very tempting. It's not a feeling you can forget. Saidar gives the channeler a more full of life experience. In another words, they feel the joy of the power with their souls. And when you have experieced something so... good, you'd then instictively know and can tell the difference when you touch someone without a soul because they lack the life within them.<br /><br />Berelein wasn't a channeler, so she wasn't as sure as Sheridam and Verin when she touched Perin. But we can't be sure because the case from Sheridam and Verin and Beledein are both different. Yes so we can't tell.<br /><br />About Moriain and Mat, it's part of the bond that allows more shaper sense to tune into shadowspawns for Warders and well, evil plain evil for Aes Sedai. Not that AS can actually pick out evil mind you, but it gives their instincts a boost. And Moriain has come in contact with evil more then enough to tell that something is wrong with Mat. Who wouldn't?  :p<br /><br />Hehe, Hmm, I think that's all I have for now. And it's just my thoughts. Feel free to comment on them. Hehe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://tinyurl.com/k4za4<br /><b>&quot;Intuitively Obviously Revealed!&quot;</b> <br />Submitted by kcf<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/jcxpw<br /><b>&quot;The Power that resides in the Kitchen&quot;</b><br />Submitted by sidious</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 17:56:15
subject: <b>Bravo</b>
body:
Well put together guys/gals. I am truely impressed by this theory. It does explain why the populations that exist in randland are almost completely free of disease. Although, I did think that I had read something about there being some sort of disease out there, but it was not very specific, and it obviously wasn't a major killer in the populations. Although I do think the Aes Sedi of this age also play a big part in keeping the disease levels down. The yellow ajah, as weak as they are in their communication nets, do seem to keep an ever vigilent eye out for disease. It also explains why none of the main characters ever get really sick. Again, bravo on a very well put together theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 19:45:48
subject: <b>This had been puzzling me for a while</b>
body:
Seems quite obvious now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bizit<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Student of ancient artifacts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 20:35:59
subject: <b>Oh.</b>
body:
Okay.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 21:56:58
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
It is a really well thought out theory, but there is a problem. If the life-span of humans is extended every AoL, wouldn't people live a lot longer by now? But then again, that good old Dark One has a nasty tendency to mess with things. The other theory could be that Jordan didn't do enough research, and based third age health on our age. But really, who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With the recent accomplishment of the manned lunar landing.... The 1981 manned Mars mission (1982 landing on Mars) is shown as an integral part of the total space program in the next two decades.&quot;<br />- Space Task Group August 4. 1969</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 23:33:23
subject:
<b>Great theory guys <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
But Geoff, when am I gonna get that last chapter(there's only one left, that you have, right?)?  I'm working on Chapter 10 now, and I'll send them to you if you want.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 01:33:36
subject: <b>in tSR</b>
body:
during Rands little jaunt into his ancestry, he sees throught eh eyes of an Aielman in the age of legends who says he is something like 64 but still in his middle years. I thought I'd just add this as further evidence. Good job.


created: 2002-03-31 10:06:20
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
I love this well thought out theory and it makes sense in the context of the story but not completely if you factor in that the whole series is fiction. I think the absence of disease in the Westlands is due to Robert Jordan's writing not an AoL modification. If we had huge disease epidemics than it would take away from the plot line. As much as we love to immerse ourselves in the world of the Wheel of Time it is important to remember that this is a book series written by an author who has an editor and they have to use write to relate to their audiences. That is why Robert Jordan decided to give the people the same life spans we have, it makes it much easier for us to relate to them, and the diseases would only distract us from the main plot line so they are omitted. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 19:43:49
subject: <b>Rand ancestor</b>
body:
Bastian said what I was going to say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 09:43:01
subject: <b>I am going to have to go with LordDrgn on this one...</b>
body:
You seem to think that the AoL WILL or HAS already happened... and that scares me... It's just a story<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 09:56:38
subject: <b>After this well thought out scientific/genetic theory, I can only say.....</b>
body:
I like cheese.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 11:20:18
subject: <b>LordDrgn and cybermnk are on the right track</b>
body:
Im sure that the original theory makes valid points, and possibly the authors have stumbled onto some earth-shattering modern medical ideas.....but lorddrgn makes a point that its not really taht pertinent to the story <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />line...so its not a big deal.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br />cybermnk also makes an extremely good point: cheese is good....very good....well, most of it at least, like some of it is not...but for the most part cheese is good.<br /><br />well done cybermnk....thank the Light for cheese!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Maybe the next Age of Legends will do some genetically enhancing so that everyone will have lots of cheese whenever they want it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 13:56:11
subject: <b>Response type thing</b>
body:
To farmboy ~ Yes I'd like the other chapters of your story.  I'm just useless and have little free time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To those who are saying 'it's only a story, don't take it so seriously' ~ Why not?  Jordan has done a lot of good research into a whole host of different areas for WoT so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that he would have done enough homework to know of the problems of disease and the average lifetimes of people in a society comprable to his.  In fact I would be shocked if he <i>hadn't</i> done research of this nature.  Couple that with the hints that Randland is set in a future Earth (I certainly believe that this is the intention) and the ponits become even more valid.  Just because it is a fantasy story does not mean it cannot be based in reality and work using the laws of the real world.  True the OP adds a new dimension to this but that just gives even more power to the genetic manipulation idea, it could be done and there are hints that it was done so why not?  Jordan is intelligent enough and well read enough that he will know about average life spans and the danger of disease and, Yellow Ajah or not, these things are far from what they shoudl be in a society on the level of that in Randland.  I think that Jordan knows this and has accounted for it in the way described in our theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 16:26:54
subject: <b>I agree with Lord Drgn</b>
body:
While it is entirely possible for this to have happened and the theory does make some logical sense, to focus on DNA manipulation detracts from the rest of the story.<br /><br />It just goes to show that it's been WAY to long since we've had a fresh book to dig into.  Everyone's so caught up in the WOT World, and so hungry for a new book, that we are overanalyzing the books that we have.  RJ seems more a dope dealer than and author at this point!!<br /><br />I want a WOT dope fix, I've got the shakes!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 18:38:26
subject: <b>um....</b>
body:
great theory, well thought out. but do you thing robert jordan took the time to think that up? sometimes i feel like people are trying to invest a little more then there really is in these books...i think the subtelties are more about human character than science and anatomy...after all, he's a writer, not a geneticist.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" />~queen of blobs~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />~death by forks~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />


created: 2002-04-01 20:17:48
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
with the Lord Drgn on this one.  The population in the third age is small considering its been thousands of years since the breaking.  The yellow AS have the time to deal with any new viruses before they spread and leave the stuffy noses to the herbalists.<br /><br />I think that even Vashti would say that your reading to much into this.  And Vashti is great at reading between the lines,  aren't you Vashti.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 20:55:40
subject: <b>here we go</b>
body:
I would like to point out to those here the name of the sight.  WOTMANIACS.  It is equivalent to what some of you degradingly call a trekkie.  It is inherent in the name of this sight and the goal of some others to immerse ourselves into this new world that RJ has created and so regardless of if he specifically considered these ideas or not, we his fans unless he tells us otherwise reserve the right to fill in the gaps to this already great and complex work.  He has clearly stated that he does not have the time to do so himself even about such things in the book that are presently pertinent like what happended with Thom at Whitebridge.  SO please don't rag onthis theory.  Its just seasoning to make our meal that much better.  And as i have said elsewhere.  You never know the depths of RJ's thinking until he points it out to you or until he say as some of you frustratingly know, that you should be able to figure it out yourselves.   Later<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 23:09:55
subject: <b>They didn't necessarily do a DNA thing on purpose...........</b>
body:
I'm not sure but I think that healing works by just speeding things up a bit, (well maybe more than a bit) while giving the  person being healed the stength to do it. If you have people in the AoL constant healing say smallpox sooner or later the population is going to evolve to not be susceptible to small pox.<br />Get what I'm saying......?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 23:49:27
subject: <b>Herbs</b>
body:
Don't underestimate herbs. Someone who knows a lot about herbs could very well cure cancer let alone smaller epidemics. I think they just don't live in a cleaner, healthier society. Or maybe RJ just decided against going into detail about such things. It takes away from the story and fantasy, last I checked was a diversion. So why would he ruin such a nice diversion by adding such things to it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 04:47:47
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
Explain to me how basing a fantasy setting on real world ideas and even physics/biology detracts from it as a fantasy diversion?  It doesn't, it just adds to the realism of the world and therefore allows even better immersion in the world.  Hence a better 'diversion' as you choose to label it.<br /><br />As for knocking herbs, point out to me where it is ever shown (other than the Kin which is a limited phenomenon) that the local herbalist is anything more than that.  There is no organisation to these things, normally it is an elderly woman coming out as people ask for her help.  There is no way that these people could halt major epidemics with the system that they work now, not in large, crowded cities.  I'm not saying that herbs could not do the job if done correctly, I'm saying that the organisation to do such an overriding job is just not there in the majority of the Westlands.<br /><br />As for the Yellows.  Yes they Heal people, but only those who <i>ask</i> for it.  There are nations where Channelling is against the law and it is frowned upon in most places outside of the Borderlands and Andor.  There is no way that they can supress diseases in the way possible in the AoL and <i>none of them</i> know anything better than basic battlefield Healing weaves until Nynaeve comes along.  They couldn't have been altering the viruses and bacteria, they did not have the skill nor knowledge to do so.  All knowledge more complex than basic Healing weaves was lost in the Breaking and over the 3000 years since then.  The Yellows couldn't handle a major epidemic any better than 10 or so herbalists could cure all of Caemlyn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 10:11:59
subject: <b>I agree with this theory, but...</b>
body:
find it and the comments worthy of ...well, er, ...comment.<br /><br />First, just an FYI, chicken pox is deadly and killed many of humanity's children until the vaccine was found.  Hell, even strep throat can kill you.<br /><br />Second, for those decryers of &quot;its just a book&quot; or &quot;you're overanalyzing&quot;, well, it just seems unfair to belittle someone for doing that for which the site was built; it is no different than hundreds of arguments about who Damendred.  Wait!  Yes, it is!  This one hasn't been run into the dirt already.  In addition, Mr. Jordan himself brought genetics into the story.  <br /><br />Next, the herbalists of the Westlands do have a better network than Geoff has argued.  Every po-dunk village has one and cities have several.  They exchange students and teach one another.  They are knowledgable about communicable diseases, anatomy, pharmacy, quarantine and even surgery.  And the Yellow Ajah, even if I did agree with your argument that they know nothing more than battle healing, still provide a network and catalogue for the information.<br /><br />Lastly, another FYI, the Aztecs, Egyptians, and Chinese all utilized vaccination.  These &quot;primitive&quot; herbalists would tear out the sores of disease, burn them, and make the afflicted breath the ashes.  It worked.  Hell, it works.  Just another argument in the favor of simple herbalism...


created: 2002-04-02 10:53:08
subject: <b>Eggtooth made me think of something</b>
body:
There is a very very loose network of herbalists, Wisdoms, wise women, etc.  Every village and city has one or more, and some move from one village to another.  These women are good at healing.  Some of these women, the best ones anyway, can channel (if in a very rudimentary way).  They may not even be conscious of it.  <br /><br />In addition, there is a network of Aes Sedai who actively channel to heal any sick who need it.  Presumably, they could be dispatched anywhere to combat an outbreak of disease.   <br /><br />Also, there is very little little disease, and people have longer life spans than in other societies of simlar technology.  <br /><br />Hmmm, why might there not be very much disease and longer life spans than expected???  Maybe it's that the HMO of RJ's world is much more developed than in a comparable society in the real world.<br /><br />This is a much simpler explanation than long lasting gene therapy, and simple explanations are usually the best.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 00:43:57
subject: <b>OK, well</b>
body:
The only point I was trying to make was that people are sometimes working into this too much. It is hard to explain what I mean by this as much as it took words to describe this theory. <br /><br />The main thing is, I don't see how this relates at all the WoT world, unless you take it too far, as in, you actually believe that there was or will be an AoL, and they really did this stuff (or will). <br /><br />The conclusions drawn from this theory are based off no direct evidence, but rather the health of fictional chars in a book we all love. I am not saying that it is totally irrelevant, I am just saying, that the poster is looking to hard into the world created by Jordan and drawing conclusions that are not relevant, or related to the story (Thom got sick at one point for no reason, in Tear. So did Rand, granted after he channeled... In the portal strom lives, he even started to loose parts of his body , fingers and ears, was this supposed to be part of the taint???) <br /><br />I get caught up way too much in this book myself, but at the same time, drawing theories based on present human condition and what this story means to them, EVEN IF the story takes place in our future, is drawing too many lines between point A and B for me, ok, so we have a story, and part of that story is futuristic for even our own future (AoL takes place after our time), but that doesn't mean we should start posting theories about what our human race could do based on a piece of non-fiction. There has really been no basis for this theory on the theory post, unless you start blending the lines of fantasy and reality, and maybe that&#8217;s fun too, but I just wanted to state my agreement with lord dragon that it doesn't really apply, because it makes it's only reality out of nothing... uggh, I am going to bed now... blah cept...<br /><br />I like this theory too, but only in so much that it makes me realize how deep Jordan writes, if this theory did apply, there would be more discussion in the books aobut it. <br /><br />They don't get sick (even though a few of them have) just like we didn't read about Mat healing up after the wall fell on him in book 8, beacause who wants to read about a sick person all the time (oh yeah Rand is going MAD and egween has headaches all the time)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 05:52:21
subject: <b>Simpler Explanation</b>
body:
If we are looking for an explanation for the general health of the population, and one that does not just say that Jordan simplified it, then I think genetic manipulation seems a bit esoteric.<br /><br />I would postulate that it is due to a variety of interrelated factors.<br /><br />1) Sanitation - Most diseases of preindustrial ages were a result of poor sanitation.  Sewage being dumped out into the streets and such.  Sanitation in Jordan's world seems to be excellent, people take regular baths, there is mention of sewere systems and such and no mention of the kind of human wastes and filth all around that led to most epidemics.<br /><br />2) Wisdoms - Medieval doctors knew practically nothing. Most of their cures were actually far more detrimental to the patients than any disease.  One king was given a drink of pearls steaped in ammonia to help &quot;cure&quot; him.  And thos that practiced herb lore knew relatively little.  Wisdoms in Jordan's world seem to have very advanced knowledge of herbs, specific remedies for a variety of ailments.  Despite what you read in many novels, this level of knowledge was simply not available in our history.  I would surmise that the knowledge is so advanced in Jordan's world due to information passed down from the Age of Legends.  A highly advanced medical system existed there, and much of that knowledge seems to have been preserved, at least in regard to herb lore.  After all, power or no, they had to use some drugs and many modern drugs are founded on plants.<br /><br />3) Aes Sedai - Aes Sedai are able to cure any illness we have seen so far.  And we know that the yellow ajah keeps an eye out for outbreaks of disease with their minor network of informants. So any plagues that break out or major outrbreaks of any disease are probably combatted in short order most of the time by the Power.  This would majorly reduce the spread of new deadly strains of microbes.<br /><br />These  reasons seem the most likely explanation for the health of the people in the books, genetic manipulation seems a bit out there, after all, Occam's Razor applies.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-04 06:34:29
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
But <i>why</i> does genetic manipulation seem 'a bit out there'?  It is something that is becoming relevant in our society today.  The AoL is undoubtably more advanced than our current civilisation therefore it can be reasonably assumed to have been relevant there as well.  There is even direct book evidence that they had the capability, Aginor created the trollocs from melding humans and animals.  Done with the Power?  Yes.  Done by altering their genes?  I would also have to say yes.  It would be far far more difficult to create a viable breeding population of creatures that were hybrids between humans and numerous dfferent animal species than it would have been to modify the human genetic code.  The poplation in the AoL was worldwide and enlightened towards the use of science and the OP for the benefit of society.  Therefore, for me one of the biggest arguments in favour of this theory is not the health and lifetimes of Randlander's and the seeming absence of major, killer diseases.  It is the simple fact that they could do it, had a society which would have almost certainly embraced such a beneficial modification with open arms and had no good reason <i>not</i> to do it.<br /><br />Herbalists in the world of WoT certainly seem very knowledgable and hygiene is seeming better than in our own medieval times.  However epidemics still break out in Britain today as well as other developed countries with a high awareness of hygiene, developed sewerage systems and national and freely avaliable medical treatment.  The indication from the books is that herbalists are quite common in villages but not so common in large cities, the places where epidemics are most likely to really take ahold.  Especially in countries where the practise of such things is frowned upon (i.e. Tear and Amadacia).  I honestly do not think that the herbalists of the world could stop a major epidemic from spreading.<br /><br />As to the Yellow Ajah, remember that they will only Heal people who <i>ask</i> for the Healing.  If someone refuses it then they wont go against their wishes and do it.  Not only that but I have to wonder how many people realise just how HUGE Randland is.  The scale of the map if done in portrait style on an approximately A3 piece of paper is about 400 miles to an inch.  It's enourmous!  Travel times, even on horseback, are huge.  Without using Travelling or the Ways (until recently neither were an option) it would take <i>weeks</i> for a Yellow to get to the place one of her eyes and ears told her than an epidemic was starting to break out.  During this time the disease would have quite easily spread beyond reasonable hope of containment even with Aes Sedai help.  You have to remember that the majority of Aes Sedai, Yellows included, reside in Tar Valon and travel times are those of ordinary humans even if most other things are not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 13:31:22
subject: <b>I think gene therapy is a great explanation.</b>
body:
Maybe one of the questions RJ is asked in the upcoming interview should be about something like this?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 19:05:14
subject: <b>Whoa there!</b>
body:
This is definitely a well thought out theory and I am inclined toward agreeing with you. But I'm not sure if we want to delve too deeply into this cuz' it isn't really the real world (even though some would like to believe in the whole turning of the ages idea<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />). I don't think that RJ intended for people to talk about genomics when he started writing WoT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 06:21:39
subject: <b>I do agree with Windsor</b>
body:
and therefore disagree with Geoff.<br /><br />EVERYTHING is obviously &quot;soften&quot; in Randland!!!!!!!<br />Where are the paedophiles, the serial killers? Have you ever heard of jails in Randland? How are treated thieves? How do old people finish their life? Would you like to hear every two pages about a beggar dying in the street, an old woman with a rotting leg...? Do rich people (Morgase, lords...) enjoy group-sex and zoophilia, as rich Romans did 2000 years ago?<br /><br />Do you think that all these differences are related to genetics?<br /><br />I find it obvious that when you write fantasy for young readers (at least also for young readers), you must follow moral rules: characters are either bad or good, you must avoid certain topics, for example sex...<br /><br />As far as I am concerned, it would be fun to read that Morgase enjoy group-sex with 5 or 6 servants, male and female. That would not make her Darkfriend... but I doubt that we will see it happen in the serial, just because it has to politicaly correct!


created: 2002-04-10 06:48:33
subject: <b>fantastic theory.. but</b>
body:
That is one great theory!!.. But ( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />sorry.. there always has to be a 'but') it has not taken into account the fact that diseases and viruses modify themselves. A hundred years ago Penicillin could kill just about every bacterium around. However now its not half as useful as it used to be, because some bacteria and viruses adapted and became immune to Penicillin. The reason that in our world now we have longer life expectancy then in earlier centuries is not because we have advanced medical technology, but because our medical technology continues to advance. If our technology stopped or slowed down, some diseases would mutate and do us off. (I think some cynics out there are convinced this is what will eventually kill off the human race.. -don't look at me that way. I am not one of them.) So presumably even if people were GM'ed, surely in around a few thousand year or so, some disease would mutate enough to get over it and be after people again.<br />Also surely in the period of a few thousand years some new diseases would occur, which the GM people had no immunity to. But in your defence... (You might have guessed that I do not know much about GM'ing people -or any thing else for that matter...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />) is it possible to Genetically Manipulate a race to be immune to diseases which have not yet been discovered??     <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />em..hi? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> If your head has to roll, let it roll with a smile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 17:35:28
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />What a nice theory.  What amazes me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> is....</b>

body:
The number of po-faced people who cannot tell the difference between playing (as you are doing), and believing the books are true!!!!<br /><br />Anyway, I do reckon RJ has in his mind a back-story whereby the chanellers in the AoL were scientists.  The existance of trollocs &amp; nym strongly suggests manipulation of genes using the OP, so sure they would have used it to wipe out diseases too.<br /><br />In lit crit terms, as people rightly pointed out, there are perfectly good literary &amp; marketing reasons for the situation: eg, teenagers are still considered kids so that the main market can identify with the chief characters.<br /><br />But why not have fun as well?


created: 2002-04-15 16:05:31
subject: <b>Not immune to specific diseases</b>
body:
To Athaem and the rest<br /><br />Just have to respond to this one!!!<br /><br />I'm a scientist (chemistry) and keep in touch with the world of GM on a reasonable basis. Just recently a group of doctors announced that by using GM techniques, they reactivated the immune system of one of those &quot;bubble&quot; children who have to spend their lives in sealed atmospheres to keep them alive. Apparently the kid is out and about.<br /><br />Now, if we can do that now, and that is a general activation of an immune system, imagine what we can do later. Most likely we would be able to enhance the immune system to react faster and more strongly to infections. A flu virus that puts you in bed now, may only give you a couple of hours of chills. It would be incredibly difficult to program for a specific number of diseases, while a lot easier to generally enhance the process.<br /><br />Just my two cents and some good news for the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 11:01:08
subject: <b>Re-Not immune to specific diseases</b>
body:
Ah.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Thanks for that bit of info. I think I now understand why loads of people are for this theory. Still, I'm not totally convinced myself -but that&#8217;s cause I'm not for GM'ing people (I've always thought that there would be side effects.. but heah.. for all we know RJ could of intended &quot;channelling&quot; or &quot;wolf-brother/sister&quot; to be one of them.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />em..hi? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> If your head has to roll, let it roll with a smile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 00:44:25
subject: <b>Ah.</b>
body:
Y'know, genetic manipulation would explain one other thing about this series.<br /><br />Has anybody else noticed that all the characters are beautiful?  Seriously.  All of the main characters seem to be absolutely stunning women or extremely handsome men.  Any women who aren't beautiful are still &quot;handsome&quot; or some such, even overweight ones, and very few people at all are described as being ugly.  In fact, I can't even think of any ugly characters besides Olver.  Everyone in the AoL must have been modified to be beautiful (take ALL of the Forsaken, for example), and this genetic trait has passed relatively unbroken along with the health benefits. <br /><br />This seems likely to me.  Don't you think that if we had an AoL level of genetic manipulation in our world, that it would be used for cosmetic purposes?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 15:19:08
subject: <b>Totally in agreement with Aragorn....</b>
body:
While this is slightly off topic (or maybe not), my friends and I have often wondered why RJ even bothers describing any important characters as good looking, as THEY ALL ARE.<br /><br />Galad: absolutely perfect.<br />Rand: Galad's half-brother and no bologni sandwich either.<br />Perrin: &quot;nice shoulders&quot;<br />Mat: &quot;mischievous eyes&quot;...and well the list goes on.<br />Hell, even slab-faced Lan has been described as beautiful.<br /><br />Of course that only covers the men, and absolutely every important woman is a fox. Even the average ones turn out good looking (Siuan). About the only normal looking woman is Verin...lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 10:52:09
subject: <b>*looks in*</b>
body:
It's been quite awhile since I checked in here!<br /><br />I agree as well, the whole everyone is beautiful aspect actually adds more support to the idea.  Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 19:46:06
subject: <b>Black Fever</b>
body:
&quot;At the age of 27, after an epidemic of the Black Fever which took an estimated 1 in 10 of the population, including his mother and father, he ascended to the throne.&quot; p102 the Guide.  Refering to the rise of Hawking in 939, this plauge swept across the continet as it contributed to Amalasan's rise in Darmovan 2000 miles away.  So there are epidemics in Randland, but extremely rare, one mentioned since the breaking of the world.  So I still believe this theory, it is the only explanation for the extremely low child mortality rate and the extreme prepondernce of the population reaching retirement age (65+).


created: 2003-01-18 12:15:08
subject: <b>I do agree</b>
body:
<br />I think this theory is very good, but it's one thing that is not explained. Diseases do modify it self, so after a while the diseases should be abled to work again. That is what has happend, and that is the explanation that it is some outbreak of different diseases sometimes. But I guess they did not just make the people of AoL immun against some different diseases, they also maked mosified the human immunarsystem, so it would be very hard for new diseases to appaear and exsisting diseases to grow deadly. Fewer actually has some function in the body, if Im not totally wrong, wiping it out would not be good. Flu and Cold, well they are very common diseases so It couldn't have taken to much time for them to be modified to that level that outbreak of flu would be reality. But the improved immunar system will decrease the danger of this outbreak. The very good herbalists, the hygien, the Yellow Ajah, and the Sewer Systems in towns are also facts that makes the level of &quot;dead by disease&quot; number lower.<br />


created: 2009-01-29 21:12:26
subject: <b>Always thought ages were funny</b>
body:
I've always thought it strange that everybody considered rand and co. boys when they were already 19 at the start of the series. Even in our modern society these would be considered adults. In some parts of the world this could be the equivalent of a college senior. In the middle ages everybody were considered adults much earlier, usually 14 or 15. I'm only assuming RJ would have known this because he was a soldier. And soldiering as a profession is one that's very conscientious of age.<br />Then of course there was rand's ancestor who at sixty was still in the prime of his life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-31 22:45:23
subject: <b>ya huh</b>
body:
agreed, and about the lip tapping, i doubt that suin quote was the only time someone else tapped there lip, next thing people are gonna be saying is that anyone that looks at calves or ankles are gonna be forsaken<br /><br />plus gena's a cuitie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 13:07:48
subject: <b>Nynaeve temper is the reason.</b>
body:
I agree with your theory, but I think you and Yubi missed on option No' 2 - &quot;Zaida and Nynaeve are similar, they clash, and they purposely irritate one another.&quot;<br />Zaida uses Nynaeve because Nynaeve can't control her temper and remaine calm like the other A.S. By using Nynaeve Zaida can see if the A.S are trying to be less them honest.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 20:23:39
subject: <b>I agree with this theory</b>
body:
Why would someone believe Mesaana is Zaida in the first place? By now everyone should know that Mesaana is in the White Tower. She as much as admitted it at a gathering of Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 02:01:34
subject: <b>I agree entirely</b>
body:
As you must have seen in the FAQ, the timing is also wrong. The reason I really dislike the Zaida theory is that it gave me such a headache diproving it. <br />Also, as pointed out in _the_ FAQ, the tapping lips is nonsense because practically every Aes Sedai taps their lips. Moiraine does, Siuan does, Vandene does, Elaida does, ALVIARIN does and we know she ain't Mesaana! That just isn't any use.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 07:01:36
subject: <b>Short comment</b>
body:
I won't write long, but I would like to add a few comments.<br /><br />1) You have omitted the three or four other quotes that were used in combination with this to show Zaida could channel. There is one in particular that is much harder to explain away the way you do than this one, and I think you should have addressed them all to give your theory more credibility. This quote in isolation does of course not mean that Zaida can channel.<br /><br />2) Yes, I agree that that is an alternate interpretation.<br /><br />3) The lip tapping was purely used to differentiate between possible Forsaken. That is, assuming Zaida posed as a Forsaken, who could it be? The theory made it quite clear that that was the usage intended, and as such, it's very much true that the only Forsaken we have seen tapping her lips is Mesaana.<br /><br />4) Length is what kills the Mesaana theory, but not anything said about it in the books, but rather in the guide. Mesaana is of normal height (which of course also means she disguised her height when talking to Alviarin, which means that the situation is not applicable to determine her height) while Zaida is rather short. I saw that after writing the initial theory and also mentioned it on the Blackboard of the initial theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 07:04:58
subject: <b>To Mad Ashaman and others</b>
body:
Mesaana is not Zaida. That is quite clear, mostly because of things found in the guide. But if you still would like to know what could make someone believe so, please search for Zaida in the theory post and simply read my initial theory. It's long and probably quite boring, but although it's wrong in some parts, I think it at least covers the reasons I had for believing it in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 19:15:26
subject: <b>hey yubi</b>
body:
I actually voted thumbs up to your theory, cuase i do like it and it's well thought out. I am just disproving it on my own terms because personally, i dont' agree with the idea anymore. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But you are right, i should have used a few more quotes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 20:53:34
subject: <b>Yup</b>
body:
I tend to agree with you that Messana is not Zaida. For someone of her relative importance, it would be somewhat hard for her to get away on her little escapades to the White Tower. While obvoiusly, the forsaken are very.... clever, I would tend to argue that Messanna has her hands full manipulating the White Tower. But ya know, thats just me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 23:49:22
subject: <b>of course she isn't!</b>
body:
'I just want to see something' doesn't mean that Zaida wants to see the weaves, she wants to see if Nynaeve can break free from them. See is used interchangeably with 'find out' in our world too!<br />Secondly, if she really was Mesaana, why would she bother with all the inquisition? She would already be able to gauge N.'s strength just by being near her, and her knowledge of weaves would be far more extensive than the Aes Sedai's anyway. <br />Thirdly, both N. and Elayne are frequently singled out for instructive purposes because they don't have the White Tpwer training to try to manipulate the lessons. Almost every other Aes Sedai would weigh and balance the consequences of sharing each weave, where as N and E are more inclined to a 'what-the-hell' attitude (ie If we know it why shouldn't they?). Therefore any student would find their lessons far more informative and probably less frustrating.


created: 2002-04-10 15:46:03
subject: <b>The DO's Advocate . . .</b>
body:
Not to break up the little party of agreement and positive energy, but I DO believe that Zaida is one of the roles Mesaana plays.<br /><br />If Jordan lingers on anyone's personal characteristic, such as a tapping a finger to the lips, it's for a reason.  I agree this helps to identify the various Forsaken, but I still see this as something to be linked to other charcters in the book.<br /><br />And, I think we can all agree that Siuan Sanche tapping her lips is a faily benign gesture.  I doubt ANYONE believe's Siuan is Mesaana.<br /><br />Mesaana is NOT tall.  She is of average height or a little shorter.  When she appears to Alviarin, she seems taller because of the Mask of Mirrors.  There was no way Alviarin was going to dare touching her, and Mesaana performed no tasks which would give her true height away.  Why not make yourself taller and be that much more intimidating to a servant below you?<br /><br />Thusly, using the mask to shorten yourself just a little would not be terribly difficult.<br /><br />Next, we've seen hardly any relationships at all between the Sea Folk and Darkfriends.  It just makes sense to have someone there, and a Forsaken would unlikely accept a position of little power.<br /><br />If Zaida wants to observes Nynaeve's teaching more closely, then I believe it is because she CAN channel.  Sure, a normal Zaida might ask Nyn to repeat her steps just to give more orders and impose her dominance yet again, but that seems silly.  To me, this a clear clue that Zaida can secretly channel.<br /><br />I do believe Mesaana is also located in the White Tower, and likely with the rebels as well.  If her job was to watch over the Aes Sedai (likely given to her by the DO), then she would need to be in three places at once:<br /><br />-In the tower<br />-With the Rebels<br />-With Elayne/Nynaeve (the most meddlesome of the new Aes Sedai and coincidentally close friends of the Dragon Reborn)<br /><br />And what better place to hide?  If you're discovered in one place, you can escape and maintain power in two others.<br /><br />I had a theory about this, but it didn't get posted.  I am rereading now to find some more conclusive evidence.<br /><br />And, for those of you who think Mesaana is Danelle, you're also right!<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-09 13:46:01
subject: <b>Ha</b>
body:
You woolhead your provin your ownself flamin wrong.mesaana can use the mirror of mist that can disguise herself channeling and raise her flamin height.just like dashive who was arangar he disguised his ability to channel to rand who is a powerful wielder of the bloody power.so that would mean that zaida still could be mesaana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-20 12:15:14
subject: <b>Nope, she's not</b>
body:
I don't know if this was brought up anywhere, but I just found a passage that pretty much proves that Zaida is NOT Mesaana.. Here goes: <br /><br /> In &quot;Snow&quot;, the prologue to Winter's Heart, we see Elayne's pov. Zaida walks in with Renaile, and then Taim walks in with 2 Ashaman. This is what I found on p. 32 of the paperback copy: &quot;Zaida stood very still beside the kaleidoscope, doing her best to look diminutive and harmless, but her hands were behind her back and her dagger was missing from behind her sash.&quot;<br /><br /> If Zaida really WAS Mesaana, when why is she holding the dagger? She would be able to destroy Taim and the other 2 Ashaman (I do NOT beleive Taim is Demandred) in one stroke with the Power. True, there are other female chaneler's about, but she'd be able to Compulse them to forget that little display in no time. Besides, why is she even afraid? Mesaana lived in a time where men who channeled weren't feared. Why start being afraid now? To keep facade? I doubt it... And anyways, the impression I'm getting from the passage is that grabbing her dagger was her first reaction. Elayne, Mereille and Renaile's first reaction was to link in a circle, or to at least to channel. Why would Mesaana be any different?<br /><br />  So, to sum up, in the prologue to WH, we have a passage that pretty much proves right there that a: Zaida isn't Mesaana and, by extension, b: Zaida can't channel.


created: 2002-04-02 20:46:04
subject: <b>umm.....</b>
body:
While this theory is very interesting and *yawns* exciting, does it really matter? I do know a little about enthropy, obvoiusly no where near the amount that you do, but perhaps this would be a better theory if you did not disprove yourself in the middle of your arguement. At first I was with you and you had my full support, and you will still get a yes to this theory from me, but the idea on a theory is to persuade people to an idea. It was clearly thought out and well organized, and the ideas on enthalpy make sense with everything that goes on in the book (dwindling numbers of people and power, less strength in the OP, although that does seem to be changing for the moment, and relative numbers of people who can channel). The only problem that I have with this whole theory, yes, I know I'm long winded sometimes, is that you go on forever about it, and disprove your ideas as you go along. But, I suppose it is something to think about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 22:17:38
subject: <b>UUUUUhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.............</b>
body:
Good one! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 23:02:29
subject: <b>Cannot comment as ..........</b>
body:
half way through your theory I got bored and stopped reading.  I can't wait any longer for the next book.  Everything is getting old,  stale,  stinky,  yellow,  ugly and very unhealthy as reading only half of this theory proves.  I spit it out before I got sick from it.  As well as taken note of the author's name.  Its obvious we're dealing with someone who unfortunatley went mad before Rand cleansed the taint.  The only other likely possibility is this author was cleaning driveways for work ( because he isn't qualified for anything else)  when Rand moved the taint  to the driveway ( see theory on Rand moved the taint to) I managed to make it through that theory it was very entertaining.  <br /><br />I know! I know!  but ever since Vashti left me I've been all torn up in side.  Vashti please come back.  I didn't mean what I said.  You don't have to post in secrect.  Come out and post where we can all read your thoughts. I miss you Vashti.  I'm your Huckleberry!<br /><br />Why did Leane ( Keeper ) Lie to Perrin in The Great Hunt?  I thought all AS that weren't Black Ajah had to tell the truth. She isn't Black Ajah is she?<br /><br />Who is Einor Saren?<br /><br />Please Vashti, come back.  Don't make me beg.<br /><br />It isn't over between us Vashti.  It is never over between us.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 23:36:45
subject: <b>I think your conclusion is correct....</b>
body:
... that the Wheel is not infinite.  The very existance of an entity called the Creator implies a moment of creation, and thus a beginning.  So while the Creator (and perhaps also the Dark One), being outside of time, is infinite, the physical universe (his creation) is not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 01:06:48
subject: <b>What about...</b>
body:
the Creator. Couldn't he have imprisoned the heat death with the DO? Or is the Do the heaet death.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 01:46:25
subject: <b>Well, ....</b>
body:
If that was enthropy for beginners, I would hate to see the advanced version.<br /><br />Unless I had insomnia that is.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Spy of Rachnia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Flame of Favelle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-03 04:45:05
subject: <b>*Rolls eyes*</b>
body:
*Sighs* a bit of background is in order here I bvelieve.<br /><br />There was once, in an Age long passed, a poster at this site who went by the name of Kaatunut.  He was renowned for his explorations of physics in relation to WoT, especially Gateways, ter'angreal and BALEFIRE!!!  I had many entertaining conversations with him in chat and on the MB hashing out some of his ideas, giving him pointers and adding my own thoughts to his theories.  One day in chat he was bored and decided to do something stupid, this ended with chat crashing big time on Taardad Maiden and myself and for toh (what, she plays an Aiel and used to post <i>really</i> in character) Kaat was banned from making scientific posts for a month.  A few days before his exile ended I was bored and so decided to taunt him and this theory was the result.  It is not entirely serious and is essentially idle speculation on my part.  It also makes sense which surprised me rather a lot!<br /><br />And to those people who seem to believe that there is something wrong with looking at the books in detail from a scientific point of view I say why?  RJ has a degree in physics after all, he is very well read and did a lot of research into every aspect of his world.  And in the end the point is <i>not</i> whether or not RJ thought of these things or not, the <i>point</i> is that these things are there to be thought of.  He may not have considered them but that does not stop fans of the books speculating on them.  One of the points of being a physicist is saying 'assuming this is the case what does that mean for A, B, C, etc.' and then running with it and seeing where it takes you.  For something to do I have decided to apply that principle to the WoT, say to myself 'what about this?' and then run with the thought and see where it takes me.  This led to my genetic manipulation theory authotred jointly with nUUdleman and this theory.  It also led to a lot of interesting discussions with Kaat many months ago.  In the end if you don't want to think about the books in terms of reality (and the more realism in the books the mroe fully you can immerse yourself in the world and the more fantastical the antasy elements seem) then don't.  I don't care.  Just don't try to knock thoeries and posts based on other people going into more depth than you wish to.  If you don't want to read them ignore them instead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 04:49:53
subject: <b>To Columbo</b>
body:
You (I would say sir here but you don't warrent the moniker) are an arse.  Shall we leave it at that or should I insult your heritage and IQ as well? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 07:02:13
subject: <b>Save your breath....err, time.</b>
body:
I find it interesting that someone who couldn't be bothered to finish reading your theory had the attention span to type a response nearly as long as the theory itself.  The quality simply does not compare, of course.<br /><br />Occasionally it's necessary to put someone in his place with a few well-chosen words or sentences, designed to leave the offending party reeling; in this case, columbo would read half of it and not understand a word of it, so save yourself the trouble.<br /><br />What I'm trying to get at, is keep up the good work. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 07:58:36
subject: <b>A non-infinite universe</b>
body:
Your theory states that the wot-universe has to be like ours (and thus infinite). Of course, there is always assumed that an universe has to be infinite to create any thinking life-form, but if you have an univere with a creator as the source of all life, then doesn't it matter that the universe is or isn't infinite. It is possible that this univverse expands until a critical moment, when it starts collapsing in a Big Crunch. But anyway, a great theory I like a lot. Good job!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-03 08:17:17
subject: <b>Infinity and other animals</b>
body:
Actually I didn't say that our universe was infinite.  It isn't.  It's <i>really really big</i> but not infinite.  What I was saying with this theory is that the assumed infinity of the WoT setting (in time rather than in space) cannot be the case if the physics of our universe apply.  Like I said this was something I threw together when I was bored a few months back to get at Kaat but then they started offering 50 wSE points / theory so how could I resist updating and expanding it and then submitting the thing! After all my fiancee is elfin_princess, she of the 1600 odd wSE points.  I have to pay for things like you would not believe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 09:23:02
subject: <b>The One Power</b>
body:
in and of itself is the solution to the heat death problem.  That is the reason for its existence, to keep the wheel turning.  The fact that people can channel (ie, use a <u>small</u> portion of it) is a side effect, a beneficial mutation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 10:04:25
subject: <b>Also to Columbo</b>
body:
Whoa. I don't really know what crawled up your rear and died, but get it checked out. The most likely reason you 'spit it out before you got sick' as you say, was because of just what HeartShade said. My guess is you weren't afraid to get sick, you choked on a theory way too complex for you to understand. I stand with the creator of this theory, as well as Geoff and HeartShade for putting you so eloquently in your place. You weren't afraid to get sick, you were afraid that you would choke on something too big for you to swallow. Lighten up.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 10:43:52
subject: <b>Let's Get Some Perspective</b>
body:
While the theory was entertaining, I think trying to apply controversial theories in astrophysics to the world of WoT is going way too far.  Robert Jordan is not a physicist, the last time I checked.  While he might read something engaging on the field, such as something written by Feynman or Hawking, let's not forget what we're talking about.<br /><br />We're talking about a fantasy world created for fun and profit by a writer.  We're talking about a world in which people have the power to blow each other away with something called &quot;balefire&quot; that shoots out from their hands and is drawn from out of thin air.  It's a world where time and space warp magically to allow teleportation and gateways.  It's a world with big flying lizards (to'raken - sounds like &quot;dragon&quot; when you say it fast, huh?) and human/animal hybrids called &quot;Trollocs&quot;, with eyeless men called Myrddraal.  It's a world of Tel'aran'rhiod and cuendillar and sa'angreal and the Dark One trying to break free from his prison.<br /><br />It's FANTASY.  It doesn't have to obey any of the laws of physics if Jordan doesn't want it to.  If he wants, the world can be flat as a board, and the sun and moon can be big demigods with faces and personalities.<br /><br />From disease to entropy, Jordan can ignore whatever he wants to.<br /><br />By the way, I thought that the Big Crunch theory was still current, especially among those who have recently found black matter, because if there is black matter it puts the brakes on the expansion of the universe.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 11:58:04
subject: <b>Infinte Universe</b>
body:
Interesting theory, even if it does way too far into the books. Yes, RJ has a degree in physics, but I kinda hope he hasn't tried to go that deep in his books. But sure, he takes to long to come out with his new stuff, so what else do the hard core fans that congregate here have to do.<br /><br />You are right that the universe is considered finite. Which is a theory I've always had a hard time with. If space is retricted, what restricts it. So if you come to the end of the unvervise, what's on the other side. I've always pictured some big door with a &quot;No Admitance&quot; sign on it.<br /><br />Conversly, time techincally isn't infinite, but merely turns on itself and repeats, hence the ring symbology. The ring itself in not infinite, but anything traveling along the edge of the ring would consider it so, with no appearant beginning or end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 12:27:10
subject: <b>I agree, but&#8230;</b>
body:
I agree with Damookster, but (bear in mind that I am not a physicist) doesn't channeling the O.P constitute as adding new energy to the physical world, and thus delaying entropy?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 13:37:31
subject: <b>You are forgetting to include the entropy of Saidar and Saidin</b>
body:
That WoT violates physics as we know it is a no-brainer.  If you consider the window of opportunity for life on Earth is probably shorter than 7 billion years (Earth will heat up to become like Venus probably well before then) and that the average turning of the wheel is somewhere around 25,000 years that leaves <i>only</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> around 300,000 turnings of the wheel.  This is a large number but not close to infinity.<br /><br />Other examples of ways in which science is violated include the way channelling men went mad.  Insane people are no more prone to violence than normal people.  In addition there is too much evidence that mountains are built over millions of years, that time is linear with a definite beginning (big bang), that insane men wouldn't make chains of mountains but distribute them randomly, that reality wouldn't unravel because of removing the threads of a few humans (humans aren't any more important to nature than a piece of dust trapped in a deep cave in Siberia), that men with the power to boil oceans and create mountains can fill the atmosphere with enough water vapor and dust to wipe out all life.  The list goes on and on.<br /><br />It is extremely silly to speculate about a fictional construct.  Even if you are silly enough to speculate you of necessity must include Saidin and Saidar into your equations!  We simply don't know how Saidin and Saidar interact with Earth.<br /><br />I am fairly sure (I haven't looked at the equations), for intance that one can create a scenario where where the second law of thermodynamics is not violated without heat death of the universe if the flows of Saidin and Saidar are included.  We can easily postulate that Saidar and Saidin are flows of something from an infinitely hot source to an absolute zero temperature cold sink.  In order to have conservation of energy (on Earth) Earth has to be in contact with the zero temperature cold sink.  By including the Saidar and Saidin cold sinks in the equation it is possible that the entropy will be transfered to the infinitely big zero temperature cold sink and away from Earth without violating the second law of thermodynamics.    <br /><br />All of that last paragraph though is just a waste of time and stuff of nonsense unless you are a physicist (or taking physics).  The physics of WoT (while having similarities) is not the same as ours.  It is deliberatly different in order to tell the story that RJ wanted to tell.  That is all we need to know to enjoy the book.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 14:40:17
subject: <b>For the love of god!!!!!</b>
body:
TOR! Publish the next book already!!! SAVE US!!!!<br /><br /><br />That aside, well done theory. I only read parts, skimmed the rest. (yeah, it's a Talent of mine.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ) But well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 16:51:06
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
Jordan discribes the one power as the power that turns the Wheel, the forces of Saidin and Saidar are equal but opposite, and therefore push the wheel.<br /><br />So as far as your theory goes, it basically rests on the idea that there is no energy being dumped into the universe.  But in the Wheel of Time, such a thing is happening.  Saidin and Saidar push back and forth against each other, generating the enrgy needed to keep the wheel going indefinitely.<br /><br />So that's what I have to say.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 17:35:21
subject: <b>For all those complaining about the theories that are being posted....</b>
body:
Well, it seems some people are not happy with the theories being posted, saying they are too boring, too deep, pointless, and a bunch of complaining about how the new book isn't out yet.<br /><br />First off, it has been almost a year and a half since Winters Heart has come out, so most &quot;interesting&quot; topics have been discussed already.  So don't complain because the theories posted aren't something you'd enjoy.<br /><br />Second, if you're complaining about the theories so much, why don't you submit one then?  And don't say &quot;but I do, they just never get posted,&quot; or &quot;it's too hard to come up with something.&quot;  Bull.  If you spend a lot of time on your theory and put a lot of effort into it, like Geoff has done, and it is not a rehash of stuff that's already in the theory post then it will most likely get posted.  No one else has done a theory anything quite like this, plus I found it interesting and well thought out, so it got posted.<br /><br />So to recap:<br /><br />Stop complaining.<br /><br />Submit a GOOD theory and maybe it'll get posted.<br /><br />Have a nice day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 18:40:24
subject: <b>just one thought</b>
body:
The creator created and then stepped back.  The idea of the Wheel is that it resets itself.  And since the Wheel of Time inherently controls time, it is also inherently outside time.  And being outside of time it can reset it and start its Pattern over again.  The Age Lace is like ...... lace and the wheel of time is like someone who makes doily after doily and after using up all their material unravels it and makes doily after doily.  Rand and company are just the finnishing touches, the fancy edge if you will, to one doily.  Another point to make, though the wheel was made by the creator it is a power in its own right and it is neither good nor evil as explained by Moiraine so it alone has the power to tamper with time without breaking it.  I think that if a channeler attempted to do it to any success it would only be less damaging to the world than if the Dark One did it,  Bale fire is the only example I can think of what happens when a channeler tampers with what is and when it is.   So though I disagree I enjoyed your theory and I am thankful to you for thinking about it I didn't even bother to read any of the other post because i knew half of them are probably ragging on you about relavance and thinking too deeply about fiction.  Keep up the good work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 18:43:29
subject: <b>Ouch</b>
body:
Scathing words from our theory post admin. I don't generally complain about the theories being stupid, just soem do get waaaay to involved, which is a good thing....i guess. Oh well, Keep up the good work reading our theories. I am kinda curious though. A few weeks ago, there were like 70 or 80 theories pending, now theres just one or 2, what happened to them? I didn't submit any or anythign, I just found it mildly amusing when about 60 theories just came up missing. Thanx<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 19:52:57
subject: <b>Hey Deathbone</b>
body:
Yeah, I was a little annoyed when I posted that.  Not having a very good day and I just wasn't in the mood to have the theory post criticized right then.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />About the mass deletion, here's the deal.  We had a new format planned for how theory's were posted, and for this to work we needed the theory post to be empty.  So a few theory admins went through and cleaned it out.  Most of the stuff just got trashed, though there were probably a few that might have gotten lost in the shuffle that probably could have been posted, maybe.  Some were posted.  Anyway, most of the admins had just found the post daunting andw ere reluctant to wade through it looking for good stuff, so we just let it build up even more.  It's a good thing wotmania needed it cleaned out.  So that's what happened.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 20:41:39
subject: <b>*yawn*</b>
body:
I tried to read through the entire theory... I did... But it just got to a point where I was close to falling asleep and said &quot;screw it&quot; and stopped. The wheel of time keeps a spinnin by the one power and the creator. Your theory would only make sense if there was no creator, no power. But there is so... You are yet another person with way too much time on your hands who took too many college classes but can't seem to get a decent job... Just let the wheel weave as the wheel wills and stop thinking too much. It's bad for you... And us. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 20:51:43
subject: <b>Hmmmmmmmmmm...</b>
body:
now I won't claim to know alot about physics but I have always been intrigued by the academic theories and this one takes the cake.  The idea that channelers in the 7th age should be that powerful is great and makes alot of sense too.  It's simple evolution.  Maybe in order to starve off continually more desperate and powerful attempts by the DO to break free, the channelers had to become stronger to hold him back.  It makes sense.  Great work, I look forward to more stuff like that in the future!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>The Duke of Wotmania.</i><br /><br />&quot;Ryan got made a king, Danielle cleaned up on Wheel of Fortune, and Maddy got molested by a dragon!&quot; <br /><br />Ohio Gathering 2008.  Where were you when the we laid siege to the Magic Castle?<br /><br /><b>OCWIATJ Forever.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 21:19:09
subject: <b>You guys DO have to admit</b>
body:
that this post was a LITTLE too in depth for the average person. I guess that it was a well thought out and in depth theory, but as someone said above, why can't we just look at WoT as a story? Seriously. Why do we not have the right to voice our opinions as to whether or not we like the theory? <br /><br />I mean, yeah Columbo brings his 'A' game, but what's wrong with that? The guy's HILARIOUS!  <br /><br />No offense is meant to anyone by this post (I guess I'll have to put that in my sig from now on), I mean like I said; this seems to be a well written rather well thought out theory. The thing is though, if someone doesn't like it, don't tell them that they have to. I have seen alot worse than Columbo for offensivness in my time *coughPaulcough* (At least at times)but no one seems to gang up on them for some reason. <br /><br />My point is this: Don't try to tell people what they have to like or appreciate and if you can't handle that then mabye you should all write to mike. Tell him to change the name of this site to 'communismmania.'<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 05:45:45
subject: <b>An Engineers Solution</b>
body:
Great theory.....I spent hours thinking about this one!  Avator Darkstorm and Xoe are right.  Any closed universe that doesn't end in in a big crunch will eventually reach heat death.  But the WoT universe is not exactly closed as it has an aditional energy source...the True Source.  As long as enough energy was going into the WoT universe from the True Source to replace the energy lost to entropy you will never run down.  You don't even need enormously powerful channellers to 'reset' the wheel.  Channelling energy could come in bit by bit, just the same way as entropy builds up bit by bit.  You have a beginning, requiring a Creator and an infinite universe powered through channelling.  Robert Jordan said it all, the True Source turns the Wheel of Time universe.


created: 2002-04-04 05:56:26
subject: <b>To Green Gaidin</b>
body:
Ah but here's the thing.  I'm not telling people to agree with my theory.  I expect people to disagree with it.  Some people have even come up with good arguments against it.  I put arguments against it (and then argued against them) in the original theory.  This isn't about the validity of the theory in being right or wrong.  This is about people seeming to believe that I shouldn't go into great depth when analysing this world if I want to.  I can and if I feel like it then I will.  If people don't like in-depth theories then that's fine, I don't mind at all.  Here's a hint though, ignore them and come up with something original to post as a theory instead of bitching (that last wasn't directed at you).  I choose to look at the world of WoT in great depth from time to time, to say 'what if this were the case' and then go with it and see where it take me.  If most people wouldn't do this then again that's fine, I really don't care.  It does annoy me when people try and argue against the validity of my theories not based upon logical counterpoints but instead on 'I don't think people should take it this seriously/go into this much depth' or 'it's only fantasy.'  Those points of view are valid but totally irrelevant to the validity of the theory.  If people think like that let them ignore the theory.  And as to Columbo, well he didn't make any reasonable points at all and attempted to insult me personally.  Hence I went right back at him and he deserved it and anything he got/gets from anyone else as well.  That is why I am also about to 'have words with' Ashaman al cor about one of his comments as it was a personally directed barb rather than a comment on the theory.  Good day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 06:03:26
subject: <b>To Ashaman al cor</b>
body:
&quot;You are yet another person with way too much time on your hands who took too many college classes but can't seem to get a decent job&quot;<br /><br />Normally I wouldn't look twice at a comment like this but after Columbo's attempts and the continued irrelevant bickering from others I'm getting annoyed.  Do not put up personal insults against me.  They are neither warranted nor needed.  I shan't call you an arse but I will ask you if you wish to end it here?  Or should I insult <i>your</i> IQ and heritage as well?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 08:49:33
subject: <b>from another engineer</b>
body:
In addition to the WOT universe having an energy source, what if it also had an entropy sink.  What I mean is that the DO thrives on chaos (aka entropy).  It gives him more power.  So, what if the DO was &quot;feeding&quot; on the entropy of that his lackey's were sowing.  This would effectively draw off a lot of entropy into one &quot;bubble&quot; around the DO.  When Rand defeats the DO, he will in effect send the entropy sink outside the WOT, lessening the total entropy of the universe.<br /><br />Didn't Herid Fel say something about order defeating chaos?  I don't remember, but I think he said something like that.  That would indicate that with the light's victory, entropy would be decreased, which kind of supports my suggestion.<br /><br />Anyway, good theory.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 11:32:59
subject: <b>ROFL</b>
body:
I just have to point this out...<br /><br />There are at least 3 people who have responded and said that Geoff has &quot;too much time on his hands,&quot; yet somehow these same people foud the time to read and reply to a theory which they found uninteresting and a waste of time.<br /><br />Hehehe...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 14:18:14
subject: <b>Geoff</b>
body:
Sorry it took so long to respond as I was occupied with other things.  I've just read all the existing comments.  Then I went back and read mine.  I realize I went to far and have insulted you. Sorry.  The real reason I didn't read your theory is I'm not an atheist ( don't recognize King Kong as a distant relative either) and I'm not saying that you are.  I don't believe in either a big bang or a big crunch unless your talking about the chocolate bar the Big Crunch,  that I enjoy.  <br /><br />Reading the comments I notice that there are others that enjoyed your theory and thats great.  So I will leave it at that and let you guys and gals and others have a fun experience hashing out possibilities.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 14:58:33
subject: <b>WOW!! There are now 33 comments on this post and 49 votes</b>
body:
That must be a record for the ratio of comments to votes. <br /><br />In responce to those who actually commented on the theory.  The major flaw in the theory from a scientific point of view, as stated above, is that the land of WoT is not a 'closed' system.  (A closed system is one that isn't gaining (or losing) any heat or work from another system.)  Our universe is most likely a closed system (white hole models be damned).  The universe of WoT is definitely not a closed system.  It gains energy from the true source, for instance.  <br /><br />All of the arguments of this theory can be boiled down an summarized without using physics-speak.  Let us say that we wanted to make our Universe so that we could live on Earth comfortably for ever (in WoT an infinite number of turns) while keeping the sky essentially the same.  A number of conditions would have to be met for this to happen. <br /><br />First, the universe could not be expanding or contracting forever. (Our Universe seems to be expanding at an accelerating rate and therefore doesn't fit this criterion.) <br /><br />Second, the stars (including our Sun) must not run out of fuel.  (Our Sun will burn out in around 6 billion years.)<br />This means that the Sun has to get its power entirely from the true source in WoT.  (The only other alternative is the one mentioned in the theory that the AS recharge the Sun with the one power once every turning of the wheel.  Yikes! I don't want to think how much energy that is.)<br /><br />Third, in a finite (non-expanding) Universe you have to have a way to deal with build up of all the light from all the stars as they shine for an infinite time. This third criterion means that the energy must go back to the true source at some point.  (If it didn't the temperature of the Universe would gradually increase and the skys will get brighter.)<br /><br />The second and third criteria are not possible without including an outside energy source (criterion 2) and an outside heat sink (criterion 3).  Both of these are possible with the true source.<br /><br />(Notice that no reference to entropy is needed to understand the problem.)<br /><br />That is the reason why I disagree with the original theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 17:28:08
subject: <b>Again to Columbo</b>
body:
Apology accepted.  I'm not an athiest.  I'm an agnostic which is probably almost as bad as far as your concerned I guess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As far as it goes *shrugs* well apology accepted as I say.<br /><br />Peace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 17:59:38
subject: <b>Possible explanation</b>
body:
Perhaps our universe IS infinite.  We cannot detect the other big bangs in the universe, because they are farther away than the speed of light multiplied by the distance between the centre of that big bang and our current location.  Perhaps the universe shall never suffer heat death, because there is an infinite amount of energy occupying an infinite amount of space in a more-or-less fixed ratio.  And maybe the World of the Wheel is similar.<br /><br />Or, maybe not.  But it's something to think about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 21:29:00
subject: <b>Vercingetorix</b>
body:
You ask for something new to post and I might have something for you.  I just submitted my first theory.  Check it out and if you like it please post it.  I know that theirs alot of people that can't wait to take a peice out of me and would love to see one of my theories good or bad.  <br /><br />Just thought I'd give you and everyone else the heads up.  Now I have to leave and build a good defence as I'm  sure to get jumped by more than one if you post my theory.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Columbo. ( Case cracker)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 22:45:18
subject: <b>Yet another engineering response</b>
body:
I've thought much the same thing!  Infact with one heating weave tied off and one cooling weave tied off a closed system and an air/water weave to keep fluid moving, you could create not only a perpetual motion machine, but a limitless supply of electricity! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-05 13:11:12
subject: <b>Hey</b>
body:
No breaking the laws of thermodynamics please!!<br /><br />Just kidding.  Good idea.  Maybe this proves once and for all that the samw laws don't apply in the WOT universe as do in ours.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 06:09:52
subject: <b>Great post Geoff</b>
body:
And RabidWombat. Can't wait to see your response to RW, Geoff. Seems maybe your 'except for a One Power possibility' anticipated RW's response in some ways. <br /><br />I would be surprised if RJ had considered all this, despite his physicist's degree - but who knows? More importantly, who cares? It's entertaining - and more - anyway. Certainly more enriching than 90% of Wotmania's posted content.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 04:03:47
subject: <b>Just a Thought</b>
body:
All right here is an idea:<br />Conservational law of Matter / Energy<br />Matter or Energy can not be created nor destroyed.<br />Basically the energy has to come from somewhere and then it can only be converted into something else.<br />The One Power has to come from somewhere and then it changes into something else, Just a thought, when people get the Power burnt out of them it could be because they can't turn the energy into something else and the energy has to go somewhere.<br /><br />I really liked this theory, it gives me something to think about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">From one that was here to not being here and now back again<br /><br />Yours in insanity<br />Mach</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 08:39:56
subject: <b>Isaac Asimov</b>
body:
Great theory, Geoff.  You obviously put a lot of work into it.<br /><br />Have any of you ever read Isaac Asimov's &quot;The Gods Themselves&quot;?  In it, in order to find a limitless supply of energy, the people of Earth create a portal to another universe.  However, with that portal the physical laws of that universe start to take hold in ours - kind of a balancing out effect like in your example of the two gasses in the perfect container.  It just so happens to be a universe near its heat death, and our physical laws rejuvenate it while speeding the entropy in our universe.<br /><br />To counteract this effect, the people of Earth create another portal, this time to a (paraphrasing) &quot;super-atom&quot;, or pre-big bang universe.  Once again the laws of physics mingle, and our universe is stabilized.  In the book, it postulates that eventually our laws will make the &quot;super-atom&quot; explode (cause of our big bang? who knows) and a new &quot;super atom&quot; universe will have to be targetted.<br /><br />Perhaps, to draw on your postulate, in the 7th age the super powerful channelers create portals to another universe, and the laws of that universe serve to rejenerate the WOT.  Or, more likely in an infinite system, they find the portal(s) already in existence.  All they have to do is retarget them, as the universe(s) it(they) border on would have been effected by our physical laws.  However, this could serve to keep the WOT universe very close to the original indefinetely.<br /><br />I say this because, while it does appear that there is an infinite amount of the One Power, it may be that its energy is already factored in to the scheme of things and it doesn't really rejuvenate this system.  <br /><br />Sorry this comment is so long, but when I saw this post it was the first thing that came to mind and I couldn't help myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 14:14:04
subject: <b>Not a flame.....</b>
body:
But I would like to disagree with some of the finer points of the overall theory. Before I do, I would make it clear that I am NOT opposed to considering the physical realities of our universe in application to the fantasy universe of WoT. In fact, I appreciate greatly the thoughtfulness and honest desire for completeness expressed by Geoff. But my opinions differ in regards to some of the specifics.<br /><br />To begin with, the term &quot;order to chaos&quot; is not exactly the most accurate description of entropy. That all energy and matter seek their least complex state, as shown by the tendency of alloys and &quot;refined&quot; metals to corrode through oxidation while noble and base metals will not (because they are already at their least complex state) is a bit more valid description of the behavior of the law of entropy than the breaking glass. In fact, from a certain perspective, the broken glass has taken on a more complex condition. Then again, it was not influenced by entropic forces, but a traumatic upheaval. If, after the incalculable time period that would be required, all matter and energy settled into a single, low-energy/low-density mass, chaos would be the very last adjective I could imagine to describe it. Of course, I know that from the perspective of theoretical physics, it is a valid term. It just rubs me wrong to define a motionless, &quot;dead&quot; condition like that as chaos, which has always to me represented an energetic but disordered or disruptive condition. So, I don't say that the phrase is really wrong, just less than thorough.<br /><br />Big Bang/Big Crunch discussions only make me amused anymore. Jordan paints Randland with a more honest brush. There is a Creator. Therefore, there is a beginning of time for the created universe. Why in the name of the Dragon would a Creator employ a Big Bang? Complete hooey. It takes so much more &quot;religious&quot; faith to accept such a theory than to believe that that same Creator designed, formed, and breathed life into something of real consequence. Oh, and that other tiny thing. The law of Entropy itself denies that this or any other universe could produce highly ordered beings as the result of anything like a Big Bang. Entropy never goes into reverse, and for anything to become more ordered without being directly and intelligently acted on by an outside agent is physically impossible. Chew on that for a bit, please. Entropy and evolution cannot coexist. Entropy demands that things move toward their least energetic and least complex state, while evolution argues that things can and do become more complex given enough time and &quot;accidents&quot;, or mutations.<br /><br />Regarding the concept that if the universe is infinite then it must have already existed an infinite amount of time, and therefore must have already been in danger of Heat Death, I find no lever forcing me to draw the second preposition (universe is already infinitely old) from the first (universe is infinite). With a Creative force at work (whether intelligent or not), time has a beginning. The Wheel of Time was set in motion once. It may be that it could run infinitely, but that itself doesn't automatically suggest that it must have ALWAYS been running. <br /><br />This is the same mindset that refuses to consider that our real universe, our Earth in particular, doesn't have to be as old as it seems. If a Creator has the power of creation (a somewhat given issue I would say) and intelligence, then it follows quite easily that something (or someone) could be create in a mature or maturing state. Then the physical condition of the thing created could not be accurated dated to it's creation based on say, layers of strata OR the energy decay rate of certain atomic structures. I won't go any further on that tangent unless someone else wishes, lest I be accused of religious fanaticism.<br /><br />As for application to Randland, I also hesitate to side with the argument that just because the Creator chooses to remain uninvolved with the personal issues which confront our heroes and the rest of life on the planet, it is proven that the Creator isn't involved in keeping the Wheel turning. I'd have to say that since only an intelligent, creative power of a God could set it in motion, only such power as this can keep it so. I think, if it were truly explored within the scope of the story, that we would find it wasn't Saidin/Saidar which maintained the energy of time, but the True Power. Now, some of you will gasp and grind your teeth and say that the True Power is only employed by the DO and those of his servants whom he chooses. I offer that it is also available to the Creator and to someone He chooses. And that in such hands, it has none of the violent side-effects that we witness when it is used by the DO's main minion. Of course, I could be wrong. What I'm really getting at is that any agent acting within the framework of time has no way of influencing that framework. Only someone acting from outside of time, ergo the Creator, can impose such an influence, no matter what form that influence might take.<br /><br />All of that aside, I did thoroughly enjoy reading the ENTIRE post, as well as ALL of the responses. I've read many, many series of science fiction and fantasy novels, and have never come across one that generated anything like the range of discussions cause by WoT. I'm certain that nothing pleases RJ more than this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-13 13:49:16
subject: <b>Re: The Science of Randland: Entropy for Beginners</b>
body:
The laws of thermodynamics state that order tends towards chaos. It's just more likely that a change will be from order to chaos and not the other way around. It's clearly possible that the Pattern makes quite incredibly improbable things happen, like the child falling 3 floors onto pavement and walking away unharmed. The Pattern could cause a great many progressions of chaos-to-order where it's difficult to notice. The Pattern moves the universe towards where it was at all previous points on the turning, keeping entropy constant. It clearly keeps things like politics on course to keep the DO from remaking the world, and it seems to me entropy is pretty important to keep in check too.


created: 2003-06-10 03:50:32
subject: <b>In response to Call me Tim</b>
body:
Call me Tim: &quot;Oh, and that other tiny thing. The law of Entropy itself denies that this or any other universe could produce highly ordered beings as the result of anything like a Big Bang. Entropy never goes into reverse, and for anything to become more ordered without being directly and intelligently acted on by an outside agent is physically impossible. Chew on that for a bit, please. Entropy and evolution cannot coexist. Entropy demands that things move toward their least energetic and least complex state, while evolution argues that things can and do become more complex given enough time and &quot;accidents&quot;, or mutations.&quot;<br /><br />I love it when creationists use this argument; it's so easy to counter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You argue that evolution is impossible by the second law of thermodynamics, because entropy makes it impossible.<br /><br />The second law of thermodynamics states that &quot;the entropy of an isolated [I prefer the term 'closed'] system always increases&quot;. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A467714) Now please, tell me, is the earth a closed system?<br /><br />The only truly closed system that can exist to our knowledge is the universe (and there is even some debate about that). Nothing gets in our out. Thus, given time, the universe should eventually become some sort of stretched out tapioca pudding. The earth is not a closed system; it is susceptible to outside influence. Thus, spontaneous &quot;pockets of order&quot; can occur.<br /><br />Let's look at a simpler analogy: temperature. Temperature is defined as the measure of the average kinetic energy of the particles in a substance. If my bath water is 32 degrees C, does that mean that every single molecule of water in it is moving at a velocity equivalent to 32 degrees? No. Rather, they'll follow a bell curve, with most distributed in the 30-34 range, some above and below, and a very few far above and far below. A molecule or two might even be at 100 degrees! But on average, they'll measure 32. The only ramification is that for the velocity of one particle to increase, that of another must decrease by the same amount.<br /><br />The same occurs in an entropic system. Pockets of order can and do form spontaneously, with the requirement that a corresponding pocket of disorder forms. The earth is one such ordered pocket. So are you, and I, and the computer I'm typing on right now. The corresponding disorder? The thermal energy your body releases, the waste products produced, and even the very chemical processes within our cells (another example of a contrapuntal order-chaos relationship). <br /><br />Call me Tim: &quot;It may be that it could run infinitely, but that itself doesn't automatically suggest that it must have ALWAYS been running.&quot;<br /><br />Wrong. Infinity is by definition boundless. If the wheel was set in motion in the beginning, time is thus bounded, and thus finite. To a human with a paltry 50-100 (I wonder what the average lifespan in WoT is?) years of life, it might seem that the wheel could continue turning infinitely. But, in fact, no matter how many times it turned after creation, each turn would only add one to a finite number of turns. In other words, addition of finite numbers cannot yield infinity. For the wheel to turn infinitely would require that the wheel had always existed, i.e. there be no moment of creation.<br /><br />Call me Tim: &quot;There is a Creator. Therefore, there is a beginning of time for the created universe. Why in the name of the Dragon would a Creator employ a Big Bang? Complete hooey. It takes so much more &quot;religious&quot; faith to accept such a theory than to believe that that same Creator designed, formed, and breathed life into something of real consequence.&quot;<br /><br />Really, now. What saith Occam? Furthermore, what saith the definition of &quot;theory&quot;?<br /><br />You misunderstand science in its whole. Science's job is not to say &quot;this is what is, and you WILL accept it&quot;. That's religion's role. Christianity says that there is one God, and no other. Buddhism says there are 650 million gods and goddesses (in a sense, anyway). Who is to say who's right? The problem is, nobody can. Adherents of both religions accept their relgion's tenets on faith. There is no proof of either's claim.<br /><br />Rather, science's role is to suggest a best-fit explanation, or theory, of the known facts. Right now, that theory concerning the origin of the universe suggests the big bang. But tomorrow, a paper may be published which will turn the big bang theory on its nose. Thus goes science. Science does not say that the big bang theory is the absolute, irrevocable truth; nor does it go proselytizing.<br /><br />So why doesn't science explain creation with God? Because there's no need. Occam's razor says that the simplest explanation that fits the known facts is the most likely to be right. God does not enter the equation because there is no evidence that God exists, and the origin of the universe can be explained without God.<br /><br />Call me Tim: &quot;If a Creator has the power of creation (a somewhat given issue I would say) and intelligence, then it follows quite easily that something (or someone) could be create in a mature or maturing state. Then the physical condition of the thing created could not be accurated dated to it's creation based on say, layers of strata OR the energy decay rate of certain atomic structures. I won't go any further on that tangent unless someone else wishes, lest I be accused of religious fanaticism.&quot;<br /><br />Yes, go on it. Your argument is just fine from a logical sense, assuming a creator, but then the obvious question is why? Why would a creator bother? It's the same question as your own, above, asking why a creator would bother with a big bang. Why? To fool us into thinking s/he/it doesn't exist?


created: 2004-12-08 11:19:36
subject: <b>good work but...</b>
body:
correct me if im wrong but wasn't the whole point of this series a wheel that goes round and has a begining that leads directly on from the end?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 11:22:04
subject: <b>ooops only posted half lol</b>
body:
therefore the wheel doesn't ever actually physically reset and therefore we cannot have entropy. (unless its in the form of the dark one? maybe it has something to do with the weakness in the pattern at shayol ghul?)<br />anyway well done on an interesting thory and keep up the good work. it was better than anything could think up........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-22 03:05:54
subject: <b>I'm no physicist (yet), but here's an idea:</b>
body:
What if the universe does end in a Crunch, and the Crunch is the end of the 7th age, with another Bang being the beginning of the 1st?<br /><br />And also great theory, it's discussions like these that I love!


created: 2007-06-04 04:16:52
subject: <b>A suggestion</b>
body:
I was turing this ideal in my head when i read this. Have you considered it is infinite in the way that whenever the wheel turns, it will reset to the first age. For example, the wheel starts to turn. After a very long while, it completes one turn and the first age starts again. It would be like they are stuck in a time loop, so it would be infinte


created: 2002-04-03 14:52:58
subject: <b>Hahaha!!!</b>
body:
I got the first message!!! Ahem...anyway... Like Burr says, I don't know that Rahvin had a stash of *angreal, but I also believe Graendal killed Asmo. Besides, Jordan said so.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 16:38:31
subject: <b>Graendal in the pantry</b>
body:
While I don't agree that this is much &quot;evidence&quot;, I certainly think that this was another clue left by Jordan that Graendal is the one who killed Asmodean. I'm not sure that Graendal was there to look among Rahvin's possessions like she did in Illian, but it remains hard evidence that Graendal is neither above nor afraid of going to the lair of a fallen Chosen even if she knows Rand and co. to be there - if she has a motive for doing it.<br /><br />Did she had a motive? Sure.<br /><br />Graendal made no mystery of the path she intended to follow to be named Nae'blis : to be the last Chosen alive.  <br /><br />To reach that goal she was not even above disobeying the DO's expressed orders (to keep Rand alive) to get rid of competitors, such as in her devious plan to manipulate Sammael to kill Rand for her, no doubt betraying him to the DO afterward or &quot;punishing&quot; him Asmodean-style. That plan she later shelved for a while, waiting to be sure what was behind Sammael's curious claim that the DO promised him Nae'blis. Moridin later wondered what kept Graendal from killing Sammel since she knew him to disobey the orders transmitted by Demandred, and he concluded that she was fooled by his &quot;Nae'blis&quot; claim, probably saving Graendal from a mindtrap or worse.  <br /><br />In this light of her long term goal, her participation in Lanfear's scheme is very fishy - she and Lanfear were supposed to link with Rahvin to capture Rand while Sammael was used as the bait. I find it more likely that Graendal and Lanfear planned not only to capture Rand but also to get rid of Rahvin, Sammael and ultimately Asmodean in the process, if at all possible. I guess it's likely that Graendal also had in mind a little something for Lanfear instead of sharing the reward for Rand's capture, but that remains an open question (and the always devious Graendal was no fool, she also kept an iron in the fire by remaining in good terms with Demandred's gang too). <br /><br />&quot;Regarding Asmodean's death, I am certain that he was not killed by one of the Chosen with the intent of punishment for his treason. His death was far too quick and painless for this.&quot; <br /><br />I think it's indeed not punishment but plain opportunism.<br /><br />Sammael, Rahvin and Graendal were expressily told by Lanfear that Asmodean was a traitor. Whether Graendal knew better or not is not important; Lanfear's accusations and the fact Asmodean was with Rand are enough for her to justify the necessity of the murder to the DO, if necessary.  With Lanfear and Rahvin dead, Graendal (who feared that Rand's next step could be to go after her) definitely had all the required motives to kill Asmodean :<br /><br />1. He was teaching Rand, making him more dangerous for her<br />2. Asmodean knew that Graendal was hiding in a palace in Arad Doman and she was likely aware of that. <br />3. Killing Asmodean, whom she believed to be a full-fledged traitor or Lanfear's tool, was a very logical step in her chosen path to become Nae'blis.  Not only it was one more Chosen out of the way, but it would put her in the DO's favor if she &quot;punished&quot; Asmodean and deprived the Dragon of his teachings.  <br /><br />&quot;This leaves the death as either a private motive, or a spur of the moment act that was entirely unpremeditated. It seems unlikely to me that it was a private motive, as there are none that we know about, and so it would not be 'obvious'.&quot;<br /><br />When you put it in relation with her goal to be Nae'blis and the path she intends to follow, that is rather &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; that Graendal would kill Asmodean if she had the occasion and would even look for such an occasion. I'm not convinced that it was premeditated as such, but it's possible that she remained in Caemlyn partly in case there might be an occasion or to learn where Rand and Asmodean were going from there so that she could organize something to kill Asmodean later.<br /><br />As for being in Caemlyn, there are a couple of possible explanations.  The plan to use Sammael as bait for Rand was coming to fruition, with Rand in Cairhien organizing a party to go to Illian and all.  It would make sense that Graendal and Rahvin were on stand-by together, perhaps awaiting news from Lanfear.  This is further suggested by Moghedien who gathered that Graendal and Rahvin were working together (she must have seen them together in TAR).<br /><br />Then it was also the day Lanfear died and we know that Graendal somehow became convinced quickly that she was dead, possibly from spies in Cairhien. Lanfear's dead changed the plan and it's logical that Graendal would have joined Rahvin at that point - if she wasn't with him already.<br /><br />She also had a reason to hide in the palace after Rahvin's death, beside killing Asmodean : learn whether Rand was coming after her or not and what he was planning. <br /><br />As for hiding in a &quot;pantry&quot;, this is a good place for Gateways or for meeting spies. Who could check on her departures/arrivals without raising suspicion and could also keep an eye on Rahvin for her (and later on Rand)?  Well, those expected to use pantries regularly : Compulsed palace servants.  While chasing Rahvin, Rand bumped into two of those in the area of the pantry, when all the others had fled...<br /><br />Graendal also had motives to keep the murder of Asmodean's a secret between herself and the DO, the same way she hides the true purposes of her pets by flaunting heavily Compulsed beauties in front of the others : she doesn't want the others to mistrust her or discover her plans. <br />The DO of course also had his motives for keeping it mysterious : he doesn't want the Chosen to discover what he knows and how he knows and the extent to which he is able to carry his revenge if they are not loyal. So he simply told Demandred that Asmodean was a traitor and dead.<br /><br />Moridin's comment about Graendal not killing Sammael and the fact Cyndane is in a mindtrap might be a hint that *he* knows who killed Asmodean and why, though.<br />


created: 2002-04-03 17:24:28
subject: <b>NO, Crazy Ol Lews Therin, he did not say that....</b>
body:
I am assuming you are referring to the quote from the CNN chat where Vercingetorix(that name sounds familiar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) supposedly said, &quot;Why does everyone have a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean?  Graendal killed him.&quot;  Robert Jordan then goes on to say he doesn't know why people have a hard time figuring that out, and then the usual stuff about it being obvious to anyone who reads it, blah blah blah.  Now, what you should note is that THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.  The CNN chat was edited before it was published to the masses.  What I ORIGINALLY said was &quot;Note: Graendal killed him.&quot;  THIS is what RJ responded to, so you can see how he is not responding to my comment of my opinion of who killed Asmodean.<br /><br />If I have to say this ever again I am going to be REALLY annoyed.  There should be a disclaimer on the front of wotmania saying that that comment was edited.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But you are right in saying that Graendal killed him.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 01:03:52
subject: <b>But would she?</b>
body:
Graendal doesn't seem a kill-on-sight type to me. Rather a Compulse-the-beejabers-out-of-him type. I think she would capture Asmo instead of killing him outright.


created: 2002-04-04 02:38:10
subject: <b>Why the Kitchen Area</b>
body:
Just an idea, but Graendal may have been where she was as it was an inconspicuous part of the palace to travel to,  Opening a gateway in the throne room or somewhere else important might just draw eyes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~netweaver~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 10:14:33
subject: <b>Something else to add, though it may not be intuitive</b>
body:
When Nynaeve captures Moggy right before they go to Camlyn to help Rand, she makes Moggy speak, and Moggy says:<br /><br />[&quot;Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael are plotting together.&quot;<br />Nynaeve gave the leash a short tug, staggering her. &quot;I know that. Tell me something new.&quot;<br />&quot;Do you know they are drawing Rand al'Thor to attack Sammael? But when he does, he will find the others as well, waiting to trap him between them. At least, he will find Graendal and Rahvin. I think Lanfear plays another game, one the others know nothing about.&quot;]<br /><br />The main point being that the Spider thinks Rand will find BOTH Rhavin and Graendal. Now, it doesn't fall into the realm of &quot;intuitively obvious&quot;, it is more along the lines of &quot;blatantly obvious&quot;. She doesn't even say &quot;might find&quot; she says &quot;will find&quot;.<br /><br />Does it help strengthen the Graendal did it debate?<br /><br />About why was she hiding in the pantry? Maybe just because it was a good place to hide...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 11:46:14
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
In Burr's response upon posting the theory, it is mentioned that Slayer could have killed Asmodean. This is unlikely, though, for several reasons, not the least of which is this theory and Dom's excellent follow-up post.<br /><br />Anyway, the arguments against Slayer are as follows: Lord Luc would not want to show his face in Caamlyn, and it appears that Slayer is Isam in TAR and Luc in the waking world.<br /><br />Second, Asmo was killed very quickly and the body completely disposed of, which suggests balefire. Evidence suggests that Slayer cannot channel, therefore would have had to use some normal means of killing Asmo and then disposing of the body.<br /><br />Finally, RJ said that is was obvious, and Slayer fails this test. He was not mentioned anywhere in TFoH before Asmo's death, and not afterwards in any sort of obvious connection.<br /><br />Rob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Thanks to linuxmafia.com/jordan for the primary research on this...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 15:14:26
subject: <b>Luc/Isam</b>
body:
&quot;it appears that Slayer is Isam in TAR and Luc in the waking world.&quot;<br /><br />The earlier books let believe that, but WH contradicts the theory.  Luc remembers that he was Isam when he appeared to kill the Black Ajah in Tear. There's also the fact that Slayer took notice that he became Luc to kill that old couple (and he thought being Luc was fitting for this job: to kill his nephew). If he was always Luc in the real world, he wouldn't have make that comment but something along the lines of &quot;as usual, he became Luc as he came out of TAR&quot;<br /> <br />OTOH, I agree with all your other arguments against Slayer as Asmodean's killer.<br /><br />To play the devil's advocate a bit, I guess it's possible (however unlikely) that Slayer can carry someone's body to and from TAR, in the same way, for instance, that he carries his weapons.<br /><br />But the main point against Slayer is that he had no motive to hide in a pantry in the Caemlyn palace when he can hide in TAR. What is &quot;obvious&quot; is that Asmodean's murder doesn't fit Slayer's modus operandi, talents and limitations.<br /><br />A Chosen or the DO can tell him to go to this or that room, this or that cell in the Stone of Tear etc. and from there Slayer can jump from TAR, do the job and get back. Finding a location from TAR, no problem - but what seems impossible is to locate the whereabouts of someone currently in the real world from TAR.  <br /><br />Thus, Slayer had no way of knowing that Asmodean was coming toward that pantry, no way of spying on him from TAR and jump to the pantry when he saw him coming that way etc. If a Chosen or the DO wanted Slayer to kill Asmodean, he would have waited until he/she was able to provide Slayer with the location of Asmodean's room in Rhuidean, Cairhien, Caemlyn, his tent etc. and Slayer would have attacked him there.  Wandering around the palace in search of his prey doesn't sound like a job for Slayer at all; a Gray Man, a Draghkar or a Gholam would have been better choices if the DO/Chosen who commanded the murder didn't know the exact location of Asmodean.<br /><br />Finally, Asmodean could still channel.  Not enough to be dangerous to Rand or any of the Chosen, but he would likely not have been totally harmless facing a non-channeler like Slayer. And he was near Rand.  That's very good reasons not to send Slayer for this job, he's too good a tool to waste.<br /><br />It's quite possible that there are unresolved mysteries that might turn out to be Slayer's work (the liberation of Padan Fain in Fal Dara, the murder of Lord Barthanes in his closed rooms : two bloodbaths that fit Slayer's cruelty and two cases where Slayer's master of the moment could have given him a precise location) but I don't think the death of Asmodean could be one of them.<br /><br />As for Lanfear, IMO she doesn't fit the &quot;obvious&quot; criteria for the good reason that for the time being what's &quot;obvious&quot; about her is that she was prisonner of the Foxes or dead at the time Asmodean's murder. RJ also said that we should be certain of who killed Asmodean by the end of PoD at most.  IMO, this mean that knowing that Cyndane is Lanfear in a new body we should have ruled her out for good, leaving only Graendal as suspect.<br /><br />Somehow, RJ is right to say we should have figured it out the moment Asmodean was killed.  Asmodean knew her hiding place, we knew that Graendal was on stand-by to go with Rahvin in Illian to face Rand (who was about to go against Sammael when he suddenly went to Caemlyn instead), we knew that the killer was known to Asmodean and had to have the means to kill him instantly and get rid of the body.  I guess we should have thought of her the minute Asmodean was killed but still, RJ has a strange definition of &quot;obvious&quot;!<br /><br />IMO, the additional clues he gave us in the later books are enough to conclude it was Graendal, though.


created: 2002-04-05 23:03:32
subject: <b>In regards to my post</b>
body:
In further reading it, and heck even what I quoted, Moggy says that when Rand attacks SAMMY that he will find Rahvin and Graendal, and not when he goes to attack Rahvin...<br /><br />However, the conversation does lead us more into the intuitive side if you consider that Moggy says that the four are working together, and kinda says don't expect to find Lanfear, so that leads to it being Graendal, or Sammy...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 15:24:42
subject: <b>Yup</b>
body:
As much as I dislike Graendal being the killer, she makes the most sense:<br /><br />-In the prologue of LoC, Demi pays a visit to the DO, who says something to the effect of &quot;Even I could not save him from balefire.&quot;  We must assume the killer wields the OP.<br /><br />-In that same prologue, the DO tells Demi &quot;Hear who will die and who will live.&quot;  At first I thought that meant the DO was chastising Demi for killing (Asmodean or others) when he was not allowed to.  Now I think that Demandred was receiving future instructions as one of the top candidates for Nae'blis.<br /><br />-Some say Shaidar Haran killed him, which is a cool idea, but Asmodean's response just before he is killed illicits both recognition and surprise.  Not sure Asmo ever met SH.  Plus, and I know this sounds stupid, I don't think SH could FIT in a mortal kitchen pantry.  He's, like, 12 feet tall.<br /><br />-Perhaps Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin and Sammael intended to capture Rand in this fashion, but after Lanfear's &quot;disappearance&quot; and Rand's pursuit of Rahvin instead of Sammael, the whole plan was shot to heck.  Maybe Graendal was there, prepared to capture Rand, but after they ducked into TAR and the balefire started flying, she thought it best to just get the heck outta there.<br /><br />-Padan Fain was also in interesting choice.  His movements place him in Caemlyn at the time, and an evil magic dagger across the throat would kill Asmo right quick.  I always suspected some form of killing other that balefire, despite what the DO says in LoC, because Rand or an Aes Sedai would have felt it.  And, if Lanfear was indeed the gal who freed him in tGH, Asmo might have been with her and would know what Fain looks like.  How Fain could get rid of the body, tho, makes this theory tough to swallow.<br /><br />-Demi himself was an excellent swordsman, almost equal to LTT, and could have killed Asmo with a sword, but we run into the same problems with disposing the body.  Traveling with the body would have also alerted nearby AS or Rand.<br /><br />-Semirhage and Mesaana both have just plain been busy with other schemes.<br /><br />-Moghedian is collared at this time.<br /><br />-Asmo might not have recognized Luc/Isam, Osan'gar or Aran'gar.  Even if he did, these three don't seem &quot;obvious&quot; like Jordan said.<br /><br />-Asmo WOULD have recognized Sammael, but he also doesn't seem &quot;obvious.&quot;<br /><br />-Not sure Moridin was around yet.<br /><br />-Bel'al and Rahvin are dead as doornails.<br /><br />-That leaves Graendal, who had motive, opportunity and ability.  She certainly would have been recognized by Asmo, and her presence would surprise him.  She could use balefire and had a lot to gain from his death, namely depriving Rand of his teacher, eliminating competition, and placing herself firmly one step closer to Nae'blis.<br /><br />Sucks to be right . . . <br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-25 14:42:48
subject: <b>For pretty much all of the reasons</b>
body:
Stated above....I definitely do think that it was greandal who did the deed.  She moreso than almost any other character is full of devious complexity.  Having read the entire series several times ( I usually get the new book and read it...then reread from the beginning heh)  I still think there are many things about Greandal I am missing.<br /><br />Not applicable to this debate but something that has troubled me for quite some time....There was a time when Greandal had a gateway open and was speaking to Sammael(I think) and he noticed an older man in a rumpled coat that he didn't think fit her normal requirements for beauty and such.  It was never mentioned again that I recall but it was emphasized just enough that I felt it was important.  One of many little mysteries that has driven me nuts =D


created: 2002-04-04 11:17:38
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
Makes sense to me. Another Q would be how long before the wounds on Rand's side destroy eachother?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 13:50:18
subject: <b>The Sickness</b>
body:
the sickness that rand is having seems to more oriented towards the fact that mat and perrin have been away from him to long,due to the fact that they both have the sickness


created: 2002-04-04 13:56:29
subject: <b>Mat and Perring are sick too?</b>
body:
where does it say that Mat and Perring have the same sickness?  They feel an urgency to be near him again, an itch, but never has it been described as an illness.  The three taveren have nothing to do with Rand's sickness in seizing saidin.  I think that this is a great theory and very plausible, the taint on the source and in shadar logath have battled since Rand first channeled in that city.  When he was wounded by Fain part of that evil took residence in his bones.  HOwever, I do not think that cleansing the taint and destroying Aridohl will have much to do with Rand's sickness in seizing saidin.  Just as it was magnified when he was usin Callandor and more of the taint flowed into him.  I think it will go into a sort of remission, when he seizes a clean source it won't pulse against the evils in his wounds.  So they will eventually destroy each other and become more evenly matched so to speak, as they will have no more taint or shadar logoth feeding them to keep them so virulent.  <br /><br />Just My HO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~A~ <br /> <br />&quot;It appears we're reaching a period when our senses and our minds no longer respond to moderate stimulation&quot;<br /> <br />CANADA HERE I COME<br /><br />BOO!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 17:35:19
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
with Alanna and the theory poster. Another interesting side issue here is how the destruction of Shadar Logoth effected Fain/Mordeth. The way I see it his only link now to the evil of SL is the dagger. take away the dagger = kill fain?<br />Maybe this has been discussed before, if so, show me where please.


created: 2002-04-04 18:11:23
subject: <b>I post the above</b>
body:
then take a nice, leisurely jaunt throught the MB, and what do I see, a discussion about Fain and the destruction of Shadar Logoth. Oh well, stuff like that happens to me often.


created: 2002-04-04 18:15:53
subject: <b>Moiraine said (a while ago)</b>
body:
(I think this was in EotW when she's teaching Egwene)<br /><br />that the sickness after channeling is natural as the channeler begins to use the OP.  Moiraine also said that the time between channeling and sickness would decrease steadily until they happened simultaneously.<br /><br />I thought this effect was what afflicted Rand (until I started reading these theories) since Rand has only been channeling for a year or two now.  Girls are novices longer than that, and presumably learn to overcome it before becoming Aes Sedai. Rand hasn't had that luxury.<br /><br />So, Rand's sickness upon channeling could be natural.<br /><br />Okay I probably should say this to satisfy my doubters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />:<br />None of the young Aes Sedai, nor any of the Asha'man seem to have ever had Rand's dizziness, or suffer from it as much as he does. And Rand's skills are very advanced for the amount of time he's been channeling, so we should consider him equal to or better than a fully trained Aes Sedai. So why is he the only one to whom this is happening? What makes Rand different?<br /><br />a) Lews Therin<br />b) The (first) wound in his side<br /><br />My answer: B) The first wound. The sickness was minimal to nil from when he got the wound in tGH until Moridin came back to life. It got a lot worse after that, because Moridin was alive to power it with the TP somehow.<br /><br />(I'm assuming he was revived near the beginning of aCoS, in order to be at Shadar Logoth at the end of the book.)<br />


created: 2002-04-04 18:46:47
subject: <b>Learning to channel</b>
body:
Elder Haman, the sickness you refer to occurs when a &quot;wilder&quot; learns to channel with no guidance. This occured to Rand in EotW in several incidents, on his journey from the Two Rivers to Caemlyn. When Rand called lightning to kill Howel Gode, the channeling and sickness were simultanious. The reason none of the Aes Sedai or Ashaman got this sickness is that they received instruction<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 18:54:08
subject: <b>Nice theory but...</b>
body:
I have a hard time believing that the &quot;evil&quot; of Shadar Logoth would have anything to to with Rand's channeling sickness. If channeling in Shadar Logoth was the only reason, then I think that Moiraine would also have gotten the sickness. Also, as far as we know, Mordeth could not channel, so it would be farfetched to say that his evil could affect channelers in that manner. I would contend that if the sickness was caused by Shadar Logoth, then Rand would suffer from it all the time, not just when he channels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 19:08:44
subject: <b>but...</b>
body:
The point is that there is a conflict between the taint on Saidin and the evil in Shadar Logoth.  When he channels the two evils &quot;fight&quot;(or something) each other which is why he gets sick.  Moiraine wouldn't get sick channeling there because there isn't a taint on Saidar.  This conflict is how Rand uses Shadar Logoth to cleanse Saidin.


created: 2002-04-04 19:57:08
subject: <b>title</b>
body:
In response to Randman:<br />&quot;I have a hard time believing that the &quot;evil&quot; of Shadar Logoth would have anything to to with Rand's channeling sickness. &quot;<br /><br />The driving force behind Rand's decision to cleanse the taint when he did was the need to get rid of the sickness.  Of course, getting rid of the madness was why he decided to do it long ago.  I'm saying that the severity of the &quot;seizing sickness&quot; is what prompted him to move forward with his plan.  I am at work and do not have the books handy, but I believe that Rand mentioned that the two evils seeming to fight each other were what gave him the idea on how to cleanse the taint.<br /><br />And another point to firm o-bot's rebuttal regarding: <br />&quot;If channeling in Shadar Logoth was the only reason, then I think that Moiraine would also have gotten the sickness. &quot;<br />THe theory poster didn't say this was the only reason.  He also mentioned Rand getting cut with Fain's dagger.  Rand didn't have the sickness outside of Shadar Logoth until after he wzas cut by Fain.


created: 2002-04-04 22:00:45
subject: <b>in response</b>
body:
to madrogran:thanks for pointing out that i was talking about the cut and not shadar logoth, i was about to go insane is no one saw that,(i was thinking along the same lines as you that he knew that was what was causeing the sickness so he HAD to clense sadin)<br /><br />in fact i wasent saying that rands sickness came from actual shadar logoth at all, i was saying that it came from the shadar logoth evil in his side, the reason i put that part in shadar logoth was to prove that it was the reverb of evil causeing the sickness<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 22:30:50
subject: <b>Urhm</b>
body:
Okay, when he was in Shadar Logoth to kill Sammy, he and the watcher, typically figured to be Moridin, both wove Balefire to destroy a tendril of Mashadar. Their bars crossed, which caused the initial problems there. Crossing the One Power and the True Power seems to be a bad thing.


created: 2002-04-04 23:32:18
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
to torin, it would be nice if there was some evidence you would think there would be after 2 books<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 08:21:58
subject: <b>Cleansing Saidin does not remove taint from people</b>
body:
Straight from RAFO himself.  Jordan said that the cleansing of the Taint, cleansed the Saidin pool you draw upon.  What ever taint you had up to that point, you kept.  Rand cleaned the well, but the poison he drank is still in his body.  Both wounds are still there and will continue to fight against each other, but now we he seizes the source, it will not get worse.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2002-04-05 10:10:21
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
i covered that by saying that the wound could still reverb off of the taint in rands bones,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 10:48:14
subject: <b>More cleaning to be done then...</b>
body:
If they can clean up the Taint from Sadin, can't we assume that they could clean the Taint from their bones? Maybe a new kind of healing for Nynaeve or Sumekio (sp) or Flynn to discover?<br /><br />You couldn't heal stilling until Nyn discovered it. Maybe what RJ was saying, was that yeah, just becuase they cleaned up Saidin, they won't be free form the taints effects. But he didn't say there was no way to heal the taints effects... Just more food for thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 12:28:35
subject: <b>Elder Haman is correct...</b>
body:
Elder Haman is correct.  Mad Ashman you are incorrect.  Mad Ashman you are wrong.  Rand did not suffer or become sick until a day and a half after he used the power to call down the lightning in the scene you mentioned.  If you will recall Mat was blinded temporarily by the lightning.  Rand had to hold his hand for a day until his sight started to return.  It wasn't till then that Rand fell sick and it was then Mat's turn to play doctor.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 13:48:42
subject: <b>Various evils</b>
body:
It's interesting to consider the various personifications of Evil that are separate and distinct in Westland.  I wondered where the balance between the Creator and the Dark One was, until I considered that perhaps the ASSEMBLED Evils balance out the Creator.  The DO may only be the most blatant and focused of them.<br /><br />Distinct Evils:<br />1. The Dark One<br />2. That which was Aridhol/Mordeth<br />3. Slayer<br />4. Maichin Shin (may or may not be the Taint)<br />5. New one: Padan Fain (though he may be an amalgamation of some of the others).<br /><br />One may even submit that it is possible for one of the Finn groups to be so, but that's pure conjecture. <br /><br />Making this relevant, it may be well possible that the absence of the powered Taint in Rand's wound(s) may cause him greater problems. Flinn said it was as if the two were combatting each other. If one is quiesent, then the other may be free to pollute him.  Or, of course, the purging of the Taint may balance that again.<br /><br />Either way, I'm curious to see how Healer Nynaeve modifies her atttitude now that she got a taste of what Rand's had to endure all this time -- and what uses she makes of it.  In fact, how all the female channelers will react after experiencing it through their various links (the first since shortly after the Age of Legends?).  Maybe they'll be a little more kind.  Maybe -- but I doubt it.<br />


created: 2002-04-15 19:17:54
subject: <b>It doesn't quite fit...</b>
body:
If you look at the chapter &quot;A Crown of Swords&quot; in aCoS, you can see Rand channel 2 or 3 dozen times, and sieze the Source at least 3 times without dizziness.  All this happens AFTER the wound to his side (after he awakes from Healing he siezes the Source to channel a gateway to Illian, fights Sam for awhile, then goes to S.L.).  And half of them happen AFTER he has entered Shadar Logoth (after Sam hits him with a lightning bolt, the Void shatters, Moridin pulls him up, Mashadar comes after him, he siezes the Source WITHOUT dizziness, then they channel balefire).<br /><br />After the balefires touch, he experiences the first bout of dizziness.   And then the 2nd after he thinks about their balefires crossing.  The next occurrence isn't until well into tPoD.<br /><br />And to Thrill62, yes, this isn't really PROOF that the balefire crossing caused it, but it certainly shows that the taint vs. the SL wound cannot be the reason.


created: 2002-05-01 13:59:00
subject: <b>Stupidity</b>
body:
What is wrong with you people can't you spell or are you just too lazy to hit extra keys? You have people spelling Dark One as Do, True Power as tp, and the most pathetic of all was Question as Q. WTF!!! So it has come to my understanding that somehow toilet paper will play an important part in the story??? Stop being lazy you pathetic pieces of $*#@.


created: 2002-05-18 17:55:11
subject: <b>Apposing taints</b>
body:
The two taints in rand's injuries have not been changed since the cleansing of saidin.  The first wound by ishamael is just a taint like that of any injury caused by the dark one's minions.  See Tam's injury in TEOTW.  This injury was just much stronger caused by one of the forsaken and not a trolloc.  The second taint originates from the dagger not from shadar logoth.  The two are independent once the dagger left the city.  The two evils fighting each other in his side has no bearing on his channeling sickness.  They are isolated and too busy fighting each other to make rand sick.  Only thing they are doing is stopping the wounds from healing.  <br /><br />The reason Rand could channel multiple times without the sickness is because he does not get sick from channeling, his sickness comes from his initial seizing of saidin.  Therefore he can channel as much as he wants without the sickness he just has to get past the initial seizing.  <br /><br />The initial sickness as one learns to channel without intruction is seperate from this sickness.  Rand stopped getting sick at the end of TEOTW when he defeats the forsaken at the eye of the world.  Every time he channeled before that he got sick a couple days later.<br /><br />The new sickness he has had is most likely just from the increased taint in his body.  When he channels the taint is stirred up and it effects his and it settles down again.  Because of this most likely he will still have the initial sickness when he seizes unless the taint is cleansed from his body.<br /><br />The idea on how to cleanse saidin just came from the wounds in his side.  He knew the two taints fought each other so he touched the taint to the taint on shadar logoth and let the taint do the rest while he held the conduit in place.


created: 2002-05-30 17:10:24
subject: <b>Gotta agree w/ Windsor on this one...</b>
body:
I think Flinn, Sumeko, and/or Nynaeave will come up with a way to fix up Rand's sickness and remove the taint still left in him. If Rand continues to sick up every time he seizes saidin even in the Last Battle, he won't last long at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 01:02:09
subject: <b>Rands Sickness Coincides with the Ashaman feeling a wrongness to the Power</b>
body:
Rand began to have bouts with sickness when seizing the power after the gateway unraveled and blew apart.  It was shortly after that the Ashaman told Rand things didn't feel right.   It is an after effect caused by the unraveling and subsequent explosion.


created: 2003-06-21 05:33:39
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Actually Roihan, I think the &quot;wrongness&quot; with Saidin has to do with the circle that used the Bowl of the Winds which channeled Saidin unguided by a male, remember even the females said that they could sense Saidar behaving strangely afterwards. Nothing to do with the gateway that Elayne blew up.<br />Back to the topic, I think it may be an effect of the various thingss suggested, the Taint in his body fighting the dagger slash on Rand, the crossed weaves of Balefire with the Wanderer etc...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-28 17:01:19
subject: <b>rand`s Sickness-Caused by Tainted Saidin in HIs Body</b>
body:
Rand`s body is rotting!  This explains the reason why he must die in order to live.  IMHO, Rand will spill his blood on the black rocks of Shayol Ghul. then will live again, in a place West of SG.  This covers the prophecy-&quot;twice dawns the day when his blood is spilled, Once for mourning, once for birth.&quot;<br /><br />The above leads to Nicola`s Prophesy:  &quot;The great battle done but the world not done with battle.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The world not done with battle&quot; will apply to all the great armies, AS and Asha`man, Seanchan, etc meeting to battle the Forsaken, Darkfriends, Trollocs, Myrddraal, Dreadlords, etc.  <br /><br />IMHO, this Last Battle will occur in The Caralain Grass.<br /><br />As a result of Rand spilling his blood and being alive again will make him strong enough for the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 23:22:08
subject: <b>That's one heck of a theory!</b>
body:
Dude! That's the best theory I've read in quite some time. I love it. Excellent way of explaining the whole Ta'veren-thing. I could ramble on and on about it, but I won't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, just to say it one more time: that's one hell of a theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 02:09:41
subject: <b>y'know i really like this</b>
body:
I like both parts.<br /><br />Your comments about them rubbing off on others (like paperclips <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> ) was great with good examples.<br /><br />I like how you name Perrin, Mat and Rand. It makes sense and you make great use of examples to illustrate your points. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Great work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 03:10:38
subject: <b>Good job!</b>
body:
I think you captured the essence of ta'verenship in a very understandable way.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 05:26:01
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
This was one of the best theories I've read so far, great work!! The thing about ta'vereness rubbing off on other people really makes sense, ta'veren affects events, why wouldnt it affect people in the way you described? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-05 09:47:33
subject: <b>hey, thats good</b>
body:
I also really like this theory. You describe it very well, and I especially like the comparison of Mat, Rand and Perrin. Great job!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 10:40:48
subject: <b>Going to have to jump on the bandwagon</b>
body:
Great Theory, and the best explanation I have seen by far why other people seem to pull the pattern in their favor (Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, etc...) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 11:32:53
subject: <b>Great and...</b>
body:
... if that Ta'veren thing is right about rubbing off then surly Tam, who was his dad and lived with him for 17(?) years will come back. Yey.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 12:09:20
subject: <b>Well......</b>
body:
simple enough that even Columbo could follow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 13:15:15
subject: <b>Alrighty, good theory</b>
body:
Really good theory, actually.  I have but one complaint. <br /><br />Who's the one Goomer that voted against it?  I hate it when people vote against, just to prevent a 100%!  If you're going to vote against an overwhelming majority, at least post a reason, please?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Jeremy H. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><b><font color="#cc33ff"><br />Run far and fast when a wizard frowns.<br />Run faster when he smiles.<br /></font></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 15:43:12
subject: <b>Great theory!</b>
body:
I especially like with the part about &quot;magnitized paperclips.&quot; It explains why people like Elyane, Egwene, and Nynaeve have Ta'veren-like abilities, and why the same people are drawn together again and again.<br /><br />Take Bayle Domon for instance (he <i>do be</i> favorite minor character <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ). In EotW he gave Rand, Mat and Thom a ride to Whitebridge. Then in Falme Elyane, Nynaeve, and Min were going to use his ship to escape. Later, in Tanchico Domon was surprised to meet Thom, Elyane and Nynaeve together!<br /><br />Ta'veren affected people seem to be drawn to each other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 16:48:23
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
Very good theory.<br /><br />I'm gonna play the devil's advocate but it's only half-hearted.<br /><br />The only (weak) argument I can think of against the effect &quot;rubbing of&quot; on others is that apparently nobody who studied Ta'veren noticed that phenomenon before (eg. : around Hawkwing etc.). Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for that, Aes Sedai are far from omniscient. <br /><br />As for the chaos/order saidin/saidar analogy and Rand being the strongest Ta'veren and the unity principle, it's really interesting. <br /><br />I think Jordan might use this differently, though.  Cadsuane's needling, IMO, represents saidin/saidar, Aes Sedai / Asha'man and Rand's hand that is the force that can either unite them or make them destroy each other.  Cadsuane knows what it's intended to represent but she is not sure if it will turn out the way she wants. For me the needling is a clue that Cadsuane's plan, being Green Ajah, has always been to attach male channelers to the White Tower to fight TG. She was waiting for the Dragon reborn to launch the last phase of her plan, readying herself by studying male channelers and gathering sisters to help her).<br /><br />I'm not totally convinced that Perrin's role has to be equated to saidar or female principle, though. To build such symbolism, Jordan who likes the male/female balance so much would probably have made the &quot;order&quot; Ta'veren female. <br /><br />OTOH, maybe it's not necessary that one of the Ta'veren is female since Mat and Perrin are completed by two female characters.  The force that drives Perrin toward an &quot;order&quot; effect is definitely Faile and it's far from impossible that Mat becomes the force driving Tuon. Two couples, one driving toward order/female and the other toward chaos/male and Rand uniting them.  It would work, all the more because Perrin would resist his &quot;destiny&quot; if it wasn't for Faile's influence while Mat might prevent Tuon from causing &quot;bad&quot; chaos and make her play a positive chaotic role instead.


created: 2002-04-05 18:46:02
subject: <b>*raises eyebrows in surprise*</b>
body:
Me likes alot!!!! Keep up the good work. Finally an interesting theory!!! Much more interesting than the thing about enthalpy or w/e it was. It does seem to make sense!! Good job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 19:10:44
subject: <b>not sure about &quot;rubbing off&quot;</b>
body:
I don't think the ta'vereness rubs off on the the people around someone who is ta'veren, but someone who is ta'veren might need one of the people around them and the pattern isn't yet ready for that person to die.  Otherwise dice rolls and greatluck in general would be happening to these characters in great frequency as that is a minor part of the pulling of the pattern and more likely to &quot;rub off&quot; than major pulls on the pattern, like avoiding an untimely death.


created: 2002-04-05 21:07:07
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
or heres a thought maybe first for it to rub off on them they need to have a special bond with the Tavern like growing up with them or in love with them and second need to channel. and also the Ta&quot;vern must be so strong before it starts to rub off the Aes Sedai and Hawking don't seem to be close due to the 20 year seige so it don't seem they'd be anyway close


created: 2002-04-05 21:18:19
subject: <b>Awwwww shucks!</b>
body:
You're making it tough for a guy to stay humble. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now all I have to do is hunt down whoever voted against it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seriously though, thanks for the feedback.<br /><br /><br />Don:<br />I was not trying to say that Perrin represents the female side (I would never call someone built like a blacksmith gay to his face!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  I was trying to show a similarity between white/black, peace/conflict, order/chaos and <i>saidin/saidar</i>.  Perrin is ta'veren for one side, Mat the other.  This is pretty much why Perrin will have to throw away the axe (and probably help find &quot;The Song&quot; ).<br /><br />I also agree with you as to what Cadsuane's needle point was trying to depict.  However I was trying to use the what she wished it to be as an aid to describe his ta'vereness.


created: 2002-04-08 16:17:31
subject: <b>Almost Ta'veren</b>
body:
A similar discussion evolved after the theory &quot;Almost Ta'veren&quot; was posted earlier this year or late last year. Most of discussion, if I remember correctly, surrounded that question of whether the people near ta'veren took on some of the qualities of ta'veren. My opinion, was that it wasn't the people themselves that took on the quailties of ta'veren, but rather their proximity to the ta'veren in the pattern (not necessarily geographic). <br /><br />I think that this concept is explained well by the alanogy of the &quot;Magnetic threads.&quot; Thanks for stealing my thunder...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Rob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 23:06:34
subject: <b>Grades of Ta'veren</b>
body:
I belive there are sort of grades of ta'veren.  Basicaly your grade is how closely you are attached to/affect the pattern.  If you are sombody important simply because major things happen around you and the power you wield.  Your actions must touch the pattern more frequently than a common person.  In support of the magnet theory sombody can get a importance upgrade by being close to a stronger taveren such as Rand.  Hence Egween and pals being 5 instead of 3.<br /><br />On a scale of 10:<br /><br />Rand is 10<br />Perrin and Mat are 9<br />total guess but I think Aurthur Hawking would be a 6 or 7<br />Egween Elayne Min, Nynanve(sp?) etc... are 5<br />Aes Sedai, Warders, Kings, Queens, some lords/ladies are 3 or 4<br />Average person is a 1 or 2<br />


created: 2002-04-09 03:44:30
subject: <b>To mechigor</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that ta'veren are definite and few.  Both Siuan and Logain saw Rand and said he shone like the sun because of their talent.  If everyone was ta'verenish everyone would have a glow around them, just of different intensities.<br /><br />Ta'verens come in varying strengths, but are woven into the pattern for a purpose and are not just mere happenstance.  A lord or a lady is not pattern influencing like a ta'veren.  They may have power over those around them due to their station in life, but they do not pull the pattern, they are simply in a position of command.<br /><br />Just my opinion of course,<br /><br />Geer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-10 18:29:38
subject: <b>Polarity</b>
body:
Great thoughts.<br /><br />Here is one more.<br /><br />The theory mentioned that polarity was ignored but I think some aspects of polarity come into play as well.  <br /><br />In the first or second book, I think Moiraine mentioned that now that the real Dragon was public, all the other &quot;Dragons&quot; that were being spun out of the Pattern would diminish.  This is sort of like the repulsion of like poles in magnitism.  Rand pushed the other like polarity threads out of the way because he is stronger.<br /><br />Granted this is an imperfect analogy as we don't see it in action elsewhere that I can think of but I found it interesting.<br /><br />Just my 2 seconds on the idea.<br /><br />Dabbink


created: 2002-04-12 10:38:39
subject: <b>me likes theroy theory kicks ass.</b>
body:
I like the explanation of &quot;rubbing off&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 02:23:41
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
well i found this really interesting because i stronly maintain  that 2 of my friends are ta'verene.. i think you did a really good job of organizing all of this... im not so sure about it &quot;rubbing-off&quot; .. i think it is more l ike the other threads just bend in the way that the ta'veren needs them too.. so the result is things like nynaeve escaping the balefire etc...  she has not become ta'veren but she is needed by rand and perrin and mat so therefore her thread is beant in the proper direction.. at least thats my idea on the  whole thing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life sure is interesting with ta'veren for friends...<br />Lorraine Renflorr<br />hermitism... how inviting</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 13:12:26
subject: <b>well isnt this nice.....</b>
body:
I like the theory, nice one.<br /><br />normally i would post some great thought about thi theory but i think u said all there is to say


created: 2002-05-09 16:53:30
subject: <b>Fantastic Theory</b>
body:
I've always thought this, but I don't think I had the detail you have on it.  I do think that characters like Egwene, Moiraine and others develop a ta'vereness quality by being in proximity to Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  They can do things that need to be done for the three ta'veren that they cannot do themselves.<br />And that bit about Perrin and order, Mat and chaos.  Pure genius.  It shows a lot of insight on how the characters react to the world around them.<br />Overall, good job.  This ties in well with a theory I was thinking of posting.  Thanks for the theory.


created: 2002-08-13 00:05:04
subject: <b>Great Theory....however......</b>
body:
I must say that you have some serious time on your hands.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-14 22:44:08
subject: <b>*rubs chin*</b>
body:
I agree with you totally, except one thing. Maybe it's not like paperclips..There are different degrees of importance that a thread in the pattern can have. Moiraine says in EOTW to Nynaeve, something along the effects of 'now he knows that you are important threads in the pattern'. So could it be that Nynaeve, Egwene, et. al are just important threads in the pattern that are used for a purpose, kinda like ta'veren in training?


created: 2002-04-06 00:54:42
subject: <b>Hey, maybe...</b>
body:
...they kill each other off while Rand lounged on his throne with Min on his lap. Wouldn't that be a good ending to it all!


created: 2002-04-06 01:19:24
subject: <b>few words to add..</b>
body:
Isam is mentioned in the Dark Prohesy, not Luc (though I could be wrong, and wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if I am not, books not handy), so I think that will play some part, and it prob ties into vision of Min about the 7 towers (just read a Q to RJ about the seven towers, and RJ said Min only sees the future, so the 7 towers of Lan will play a part in the future)... Change of Heart maybe? Clearing the blight back? I dunno, but it should be mentioned. <br /><br />What would I like to see? How bout a Luc/Isam turnaround in the same fashion ala Ingtar? Far fetched aye, and I do be rambling, but I agree that they are mentioned to much to be the players they are so far, these guys (guy) will mean more in the future...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 01:22:43
subject: <b>Well, that's a load of Horsedung.</b>
body:
Can you please explain to me why Galad must die to save the world and where Jordan hinted at that, or what mythology/religion has a savior's half brother to die for the world? <br /><br />I would appreciate that, thanks. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 02:36:13
subject: <b>slayer kills galad</b>
body:
Maybe slayer will be the one swordsman who will be able to defeat galad. Slayer goes to fight Rand, and galad intervenes on rands behalf. Could be tied into egwenes dream of his destiny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 08:39:05
subject: <b>good theory!!</b>
body:
I like the drama of Rhand having to fight Isam at the final battle. At some point Luc will take over Isam &amp; ask Rhand to kill him while discovering that they are related. What a drama would that be! Galad will definitly be at the Last Battle(every soldier will be there). Galad will lead the whitecloacks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Belgium's best kept secret <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />!! vote for Wesley Clark !!<br /><br />give me a freeking job will ya!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 13:35:35
subject: <b>How about this...</b>
body:
The Aiel and Cadsuane, since book 8 has been trying to teach Rand &quot;laughter and tears.&quot;  Why is this?  Cadsuane said it best.  &quot;If he doesn't learn laughter and tears by the Last Battle, then even if he wins, it would be worse than the Shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 14:20:38
subject: <b>argh!!</b>
body:
Can we please hold off the coronation of Galad as the finest swordsman until he actually proves it?<br /><br />Until he starts notching some victories against some top-shelf opponents (and more than 1-2), I'm not even going to consider him the best in EITHER SIDE of his family.  Just because he's described as talented and dangerous, doesn't mean he should be ranked ahead of the people who've demonstrated it numerous times.<br /><br />Don't forget it was Gawyn who was considered the more dangerous after the Breaking of the Tower -- and after all he was the one who slew the Hammer -- the person who TRAINS Warders!


created: 2002-04-06 17:34:09
subject: <b>Actually, Vashti</b>
body:
Uno and the rest of the Supremley battle hardened Shinerian soldiers were left gaping in awe at Galad's skill in FoH. If Uno is impressed, I'm impressed. <br /><br />Also, since Galad was not there during the Tower rebellion and was the superior sowrdsman when they were both there. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 18:44:40
subject: <b>Let him earn it</b>
body:
I'm not saying Galad isn't very talented.  I'm just saying let's see him take out a couple of heronblade masters before we annoint him the best.<br /><br />A major league baseball team may have the most talent on a baseball field, but if all they do is play minor-leaguers (still very talented compared to normal folks), I'm not going to consider them the best until they go head to head with the big boys.<br /><br />Talent is only one aspect of skill.  Another -- and arguably larger when both are present -- is Will to Win. Galad hasn't proven yet that he has the necessary fire in the belly to do what has to be done when it matters, because he hasn't been seriously challenged yet.  As I said, and as I've only said regarding him -- let him earn it first, before we annoint him the best.<br /><br />Lan has. Rand has. Gawyn has. Toram and other bad guys have (until they met others on this list).  Galad's still playing in the shallow end as far as competition goes, at least in regards to others mentioned. <br /><br />Actually, the fight I'd like to see is Galad and Aram :-)<br />


created: 2002-04-06 20:33:07
subject: <b>frankly, i'd like to see rand die</b>
body:
no reason, just a better ending than his half brother or some uncle dying instead.<br /><br />I'd also kinda hoped Perrin would kill Slayer, just because slayer WILL become an important part of the story, and perrin has to do something else signifigant in the story after dumai's well, and since then all he's done is mope around in the snow. And get a crappy cover shot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/10310.gif" /><br /><br />&quot;I'm happy about being a solo artist, but part of me wishes I'd never been kicked out of Devo.&quot; - Willie Nelson</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 04:08:13
subject: <b>I partially agree, Vashti</b>
body:
but when we see that Galad has a high ranks alrady with the whitecloaks, he has the pure, unspoiled respect of battle hardened shinerians due to killing at least 10 men in a fight in which they were outnumbered 3-1 (or so), you have to give the guy props. It's a simple A vs. B, B vs. C problem. Galad is better than Gawyn (or was before leaving the Tower. We have to assume he got better afterwards), Gawyn was better than the Hammar, therfore Galad is better than both, right? <br /><br />What I agree with you on is that it isn't all skill. For example, when Lan is cut severley on the arm yet still manages to finish off that other blademaster (what was his name again?), we get the coolest WoT quote ever, IMO: <br /><br />&quot;He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you&#8217;re dead.&quot;<br /><br />YES! <br /><br />In many ways we see Lan fall into the elite few characters of all time in fighting NOT because he is the best or has superpowers a la Drizzt (guys like that are just too outlandish to be considered the best), although he does rock. Instead, we see him near the top because, like his other dreamteam teammates, he will find a way, or make one. <br /><br />Bruce Lee once said that the best most dangerous fighters are those with nothing to lose. With a man like Lan, Solid Snake or Batman (all of whom truly want to die but not by their own hand) we can see this exemplified and Galad has yet to prove that he is in this same class.<br /><br />Something tells me that he will before the end of the Series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 08:37:18
subject: <b>Just wanted to point out that...</b>
body:
everytime someone mentions Ghalad they talk about how he always does what is right no matter who is hurt, even himself.  I think that could fit in with the idea of Ghalad dying in the last battle, if his death was what needed to happen to destroy/seal up the dark one then I have no doubts that he would do it.


created: 2002-04-07 13:01:47
subject: <b>GG</b>
body:
Actually, you pretty much fully agree with me.  That's essentially what I've been trying to say.  I'm wiling to accept the likelihood (though not certainty) that Galad is technically better than Rand.  But at this point, I'd say Rand would whup him, because Rand WINS, and that's what matters.  For instance, the Seanchan High Lord Turak (sp?) was certainly much better than Rand, but Rand was absolutely not going to be denied. <br /><br />Galad is still too pretty for that :-)  He hasn't been to that place where skill alone isn't enough, even if you have more of it than the other guy.  You gotta get mean, and he never has (yet).  As you say, I'm sure he will at some point.  Gawyn already has, and that's why I'd consider him more dangerous -- right now.<br /><br />As for his rise in the White Cloaks...I'm neutral on that.  It could certainly be argued that one (but not the whole) reason he shot up in the ranks was because of who he was and what he represents:<br /><br />The Son of the Witch Queen of Andor<br />A trained Warder (who hasn't been bound)<br />A very high-ranking Noble.<br /><br />He makes an absolutely delicious symbol for the Whitecloaks, Niall certainly recognized this. He's also skilled and talented and intelligent, and that of course was a major factor.<br /><br />But if the Whitecloaks scoured the land, they could not have concocted a better poster boy than Galad. He's a Whitecloak wet dream, a walking recruiting poster.


created: 2002-04-08 10:53:15
subject: <b>Generic Title.</b>
body:
Well said Vashti.  Galad's largest weakness is his morality.  One that's fairly easy to exploit, if not in direct confrontation.  Much like Rand, actually . . . . .<br /><br />I also never considered that the Dragon's blood may not be the dragon himself, but his kin.  Always nice to hear a  new possible interpretation.<br /><br />Perhaps we'll see Galad die as a martyr for the whitecloak cause, &amp; they'll all see the error of their ways or some such nonsense, &amp; be &quot;freed from the shadow&quot; (a.k.a. darkfriend leadership).<br /><br />I'm not sure I believe it, though.  If Galad's destiny is something on that scale, he'd have been taking a much more active role in the books.  Up to now, he's been pretty much a supporting character (at best).  Perhaps that will change after he meets up with Rand again.<br /><br />Brothers don't shake hands . . . .    Brothers gotta HUG!!!!


created: 2002-04-08 12:17:39
subject: <b>Rand has gotta die</b>
body:
Its in the prophecies. And Verin seems to want to hang around until he dies. She may just kill him herself so she can get back to her 70 mission... Also, isn't the Seanchan damane that helps out in WH suppose to help in his death? Then Nyn will have to bring him back to life, this time without LTT in his head. There has been a lot of foreshadowing to indicate these things will happen. So it may well be his blood spilled on the rocks.<br /><br />OTOH, you're right that Slayer's role will probably become more prominent. We did see him more in WH than we had since Emond's Field. And definately form a more evil perspective.<br /><br />It would also be interesting if Galad decided he had to sacrifice his life for the sake of the world. That sounds like something he would do, if he was convinced it was right. &quot;Like the ancient Greeks, Galad steps in front on Rand as badguy is about to smite he. Galad plants his fist to heart and says 'We who about to die, salute you', as he impales himself on the badguys sword.&quot; If RJ takes too long, I'll just finish the story myself. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 13:06:14
subject: <b>I disagree with this theory...</b>
body:
...simply because I believe the blood on Shayol Ghul will come from Rand's wound.  Since it is a mix of two evils, I imagine that it will have some special property to help seal the Dark One.<br /><br />//i\\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 13:17:24
subject: <b>Slayer is not a great swordsman</b>
body:
If he was he would have fought Perrin in T'A'R instead of running to the Tower of Ghenji.  Perrin will be the one who kills Slayer, I believe Galad will be the one who faces Shaidar Haran.  Super Fade vs Super Swordsman.  Galad who represents all that is pure fights the one ho represents all that is not.  Rand will be too busy fighting Moridin and the DO to have to worry about all of the others.<br /><br />To GG and Vashti, I think Galad has proved himself the best, the one thing GG hasn't mentioned defending Galad is during the fight with the mob Galad, &quot;he stood twenty paces from anyone else, alone among the dead and the groans of the dying.&quot;  While he still has to show that he can take someone one on one, I think he'll prove more than able.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 15:09:31
subject: <b>Rand Bleeds a lot</b>
body:
Rand bleeds a lot.  A whole lot.  In fact, he does so in every book.  Have you ever seen a book where Rand &gt;DIDN'T&lt; bleed?  I didn't think so.  So he bleeds.  So what?


created: 2002-04-10 14:28:03
subject: <b>Luc is Rand's uncle</b>
body:
Tigraine's sister, Isam is Lan's cousin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 14:53:44
subject: <b>[insert random title here]</b>
body:
Some responses . . .<br /><br />First of all, we can't even begin to speculate what will actually happen at TG, so why try?  Luc vs. Rand, Galad vs. Rand, SH vs. Galad, Perrin vs. Luc (awright, I guess that one's pretty darned likely), etc.<br /><br />To Vashti and GG, I'm afraid I have to believe Galad is a SUPREME swordsman.  Aside from Uno's praise, he never gets a scratch, no matter how tough the fight is.  Is he the best, tho?  That's more up in the air.  Rand vs. Galad ANYWHERE in the series waters my mouth.  Lan is no slouch either, and the Shienaran's praise of him is at least twice that awarded Galad.  Lest we not forget Mat, who bested Gawyn AND Galad while practically on his deathbed, and who's been doing nothing (besides dodging Tylin and pinching bottoms) but fighting and commanding armies for the last four books.<br /><br />Magebeast, you rock.  FINALLY someone acknowledges that &quot;spilling blood&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> does not necessarily mean &quot;dying.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  I think it would be hilarious if Rand defeated the Shadow in an orderly fashion and his rib wound opened up and spilled ONE SINGLE DROP of blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul to complete the prophecy.  Good thinking.  <br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-11 17:25:37
subject: <b>Bleeding is Bleeding</b>
body:
Yeah.  I mean, really, there's no way it means Rand will die.  There's a simple reason for that.  Everyone thinks it does.  RJ consistently has everyone wrong in the books, so why would a literal interpretation suddenly be right?


created: 2002-04-12 11:29:44
subject: <b>to Jim</b>
body:
i'll give you the points, and still my man Rand will take Galad out ten shades this side of the rainbow.  Galad as the best swordsman, please.  maybe we can give him the Whitecloak Award.  he's definitely the best at believing or not believing in something, ignoring all the facts!<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-12 12:53:07
subject: <b>I'm not too sure about that princeofthedawn</b>
body:
I'll admit Rand is good, but barring <i>ta'vereness</i> or channeling I don't think he'd last very long in a spar with Galad.  People keep pointing out that Galad was defeated by Mat in tDR, but they must all forget what Hammar says after that, &quot;During his lifetime, Jearom fought over ten thousand times, in battle and single combat.  He was defeated once.  By a farmer with a quarterstaff.&quot;  It just seems likely that Galad is set up to be the best swordsman out there.  The only reason Rand might win in a fair fight is because he has Lan's attitude, the never surrender until you're dead attitude.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 15:51:39
subject: <b>Galad dying at Shayol Gul</b>
body:
Prepare to Scoff.  <br /><br />To me it seems people are taking the &quot;Twice dawns the day...&quot; stuff as too Rand-centric.  I am of two minds.  <br /><br />1) Rand gets a big death scene after defeating the DO, dying with Gawyn nearby, thus fulfilling his &quot;One day I will see you die&quot; pronouncement at Dumai's Wells.<br /><br />2) Galad dies on Shayol Gul.  This one I like because it seems a bit devious in my theory of how to do it.  Everybody seems to assume Tarmon Gaidon will be one place, maybe at Shayol Gul.  But what if that has to do with the whole Egwene/Gawyn/Galad love triangle?  We know that a)Galad always does what is RIGHT no matter who it hurts and b) Truth depends on perspective, a person can call a lie truth if they believe it.  What if Galad is either fooled into, or Gawyn/Egwene's love drives him to, a heel turn.  Helluva weapon for Moridin, don't you think?  Maybe Rand leads a diversionary strike while sending the strike force, INCLUDING WOMEN THIS TIME, to Shayol Gul to seal the bore with a perfect circle.  Galad makes a last minute babyface turn, offering his life up to give them time to get the job done.  Then a &quot;world not done with battle&quot; gets to see the mop-up operation of finishing off the Foresaken or something.  Or what about Rand losing to the DO until the sealing of the bore makes him flesh and staggers him and Rand can sheath the sword again to kill him and gets himself mortally wounded as well.  Well, this is getting too scatter shot, sorry about that, but fun to think about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Crabuki<br /><br />Father of Emmaline Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Husband to Jennlene the Queenlene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Making pretty babies since August 2001 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 10:00:27
subject: <b>&quot;...the only reason he might win...&quot;</b>
body:
&quot;...is that rand has the same attitude as lan.  the never surrender until your dead attitude.&quot;  that is exactly my point.  and if a half-starved, half-dead mat could take not only galad but gawyn out at the same time, rand could do no less one on one.  and remember, it was rand that was directly compared to jearom (in lord of chaos?), not indirectly, as in galad's case (dragon reborn).


created: 2002-10-05 19:38:40
subject: <b>Galad and Rand</b>
body:
I throw this out as an idea.  Galad comes to kill Rand at some point.  After all, killing the Dragon Reborn is the &quot;Rightcloak&quot; thing to do, and Rand tells him that they are brothers.  Rand has pieced it together about Shaiel/Tigraine, it must have sunk in by now who Galad is.  Interesting scene...<br />BTW, Rand would kick Galad's butt!!!  I mean, Rand has been practicing with 6 guys at a time.  All we've seen Galad do is chop up some peasants.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aviendah's toy boy<br /><br />Kaylee's doctor<br /><br />Tara trapped in a man's body...yes I avoid windows<br /><br />I'm a realist...it sounds like pessimism because the world sucks!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 23:50:43
subject: <b>Galad may learn Rand and Lan's attitude?</b>
body:
If and when Galad learns that Egwene is in love with Gawyn, it may push Galad into the 'hey, maybe I don't care if I die anymore' attitude.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Soli Deo Gloria<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Last King of Waffle House<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Warder of Velma Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" />Avenger of Scooby Doo<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /> <br />Philippians 1.21 &quot;For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.&quot; <br />Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyari</font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-27 05:48:27
subject: <b>Pardon my presumption...</b>
body:
...but as you can see I'm a noobie at actually posting here. Though I have lurked on and off for years, I've never felt my opinion would add anything to the discussions I've read. And heaven knows I may have missed the pertinent threads for it's theory, if so please feel free to enlighten me. So anyway, I've always wondered how R.J. would use the Luc/Isam/Slayer in the end, or if they will even make it to T.G. ! But my real question is about &quot; The Dragons blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul&quot; and &quot;In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the shadow&quot;. Now here's my thing. Didn't the wise ones/dream walkers say it was said something like &quot;He (you know, that Rand guy) will be of our &quot;blood&quot; but raised by an old &quot;blood&quot;? Could this be taken to mean that the Aiel, or even the Two Rivers folk, may be sheding their blood on the rocks in The Dragon's Cause? Has this point already been beat to death and I'm just to lazy to research it? I'm just askin', please don't flame on me.


created: 2003-11-01 06:47:23
subject: <b>The Dragons blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul</b>
body:
&quot;The Dragons blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul&quot;<br /><br />I belive that this maybe the aiel blood. Are they not the &quot;people of the dragon&quot;, and is he not suposed to destroy the aiel or something? what if the aiel follow rand to Shayol Ghul and fight there. They would be pretty much destroyed, and there would be plenty of blood.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Erquu Blue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 20:38:00
subject: <b>what?</b>
body:
how did we get from luc/isam to who is the better swordsman to which one of rand's relatives (i dont think it will be him it will be someone he's related to) dies on shayol ghul? im only saying this because luc/isam is my favorite and the most interesting character(s?) in the whole series.


created: 2004-07-08 23:13:52
subject: <b>Lan</b>
body:
Do you not think that Lan will have something to do with the way things will turn out considering that Isam is his cousin and somehow is combined with Luc?


created: 2005-02-18 17:26:45
subject: <b>Hehe, i can see it now...</b>
body:
...&quot;Rand,&quot; said Luc, &quot;I AM YOUR FATHER er... UNCLE!&quot; <br /><br />&quot;NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO&quot;<br /><br />That would be good.<br /><br /><br />Good theory, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 21:44:40
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> !</b>

body:
Of couse! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 00:35:53
subject: <b>No, but...</b>
body:
...maybe Gandalf is Moiraine's grandfather.  That would explain the similarities.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-07 00:40:58
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Gandalf is the Myth of Moiraine???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 18:21:32
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Well, if we think about the whole idea of the turning of the wheel (which is actually refered to in both LotR and WoT, though w/o the wheel in the former---remember that Gandalf said that his age was ending, and that the age of man was beginning) and the cycle of the Ages, Moiraine could easily be Gandalf reborn.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Can't you see the similarity?! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">B r <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> k e n  C u e n d i l l a r</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 18:51:27
subject: <b>Genius!</b>
body:
This is amazing! I mean, aside from the fact that one is a woman (M), the other a man (G), and one is short (M), the other tall (G), and one knows almost everything (G), and the other pretends to know everything (M), they are the same person!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 16:02:20
subject: <b>So are others</b>
body:
Others that have these same charachteristics<br /><br />Obi-Wan Kenobi<br /><br />Dakimh the Enchanter (from Man-Thing and Howard The Duck)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 18:17:40
subject: <b>WoT and LOtR</b>
body:
Did anyone notice the intro to the LotR film - the voiceover says 'stories become legends, legends fade to myth' and some such. Fishy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 17:59:36
subject: <b>Lan's sword...</b>
body:
is Power-wrought, like Rand's (Tam's), but without the heron.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 18:43:54
subject: <b>Clark? Superman? Clark? Superman? (nt)</b>
body:
Clark? Superman? Clark? Superman? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 01:17:18
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Of course. It makes perfect sense! I always thought it was odd that they could never be seen together...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Not only am I perfect, I'm <font color="red">Canadian!</font><br /><br />&quot;Lock and load, brides of Christ!&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 03:45:03
subject: <b>Other Side of Gateway=LOTR</b>
body:
When Moiraine is on the other side of the ter'angreal gateway, she's actually posing as Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings.  This is so obvious!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Hey Peter, what's happening?  Ummm yeah, we need to talk about your TPS reports.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 23:31:37
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
And I always thought I was the Almighty Gandalf. Wait... no... I'm The Dragon Lews TheRIN. All these Gandalf fakes are getting me confused as heck. Come on: Moiraine... Obi-Wan Kenobi... Yoda... wotmania's Uncle Jeff... there are so very many wannabe Gandalfs in the world today. Hmmm... I suppose next you're going to tell me that you're the real Gandalf, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 17:15:55
subject: <b>Oh Yes</b>
body:
It all makes sense. They also both have ring too.(The Aes Sedai ring and the Elven ring). There the same. So are Berelain and Yoda. They look so alike!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 23:55:19
subject: <b>hhmm, this one takes some thought.</b>
body:
you must've really put a lot of thought into this.  well let's just put all the pros and cons of this together shall we, <br />Pros<br />you do have an awful lot of real facts that are true to the best of my knowledge.  (What i mean by that is i've only ever seen the movie lord of the rings.  i've tried reading it a number of times, but it was just, *brace yourself lord of the rings fans*, too boring for me.)<br /><br />that's all i can really think of in the pros side.  i guess the theory itself speaks for the pros.<br /><br />Cons<br />the fact that gandalf wears robes is because all wizards wear robes.  Not just in Lord of the rings.  The fact that they can both do supernatural, fancy, shmancy thinks, (ie., magic, the one power) hardely counts, if that's what you're thinking.  Every fantacy/ sci fi book worth reading has some sort of supernatural power mentioned, even if it's just magic.  Also, all women, (pretty much) in WoT where dresses.<br /><br />Moraine didn't tell Egwene to come either.  She just decided that she wanted to go too.  Also, Pippin and Merry weren't told to come.  They were at Frodos new house, and decided to come too.  I can't remember why, but i know that gandalf didn't tell them to.<br /><br />Nynaeve was more than just annoyed at Moriane for her relashonship with Lan.<br /><br />One of the more obvious, Gandalf is a man, Moriane is a woman.<br /><br />Moriane is Ageless.  Gandalf has wrinkles, grey hair and beard, hardely what i'd call an indeterminable age.<br /><br />the fact that you never see any of them together is, they are from completle different series of books, written twenty years apart, by two completly different people, one of whom is currently dead.  Why don't you say Lan is secretly, Tom bombadill while you're at it.<br /><br />And my most solid piece of proof in this whole thing.  Lord of the rings was written first, so that would mean if anyones copying anyone, RJ would be copying JT.  And since I just respect RJ too much to belive that i will have to say that your theory is, while very interesting, and amusing, not correct.  Of course this is just my opinion.  I hope i havn't offended anyone at all in this writting of mine.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> ?<br />No Way!!<br /><br />Tulleel sedai of the green ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tulleel sedai<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 01:17:46
subject: <b>funny</b>
body:
Hey, funny theory, but I just wanted to point out, Aragorn's kingdom isn't &quot;lost&quot; he just doesn't really want it...*shrugs* could be different by the time I get to The Return of the King *The Two Towers is quite slow and I've been distracted by other books....* sorry if it is different by then but to the best of my knowledge it isn't.<br /><br />lmao, Tulleel Sedai, love you comment about Lan and Thom Bombadill...*snix* very funny trying to picture Lan as him...


created: 2002-10-11 01:49:20
subject: <b>Ah, it's all clear now</b>
body:
I wondered why we never saw them together, and now it's all clear to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 07:03:21
subject: <b>and more</b>
body:
You forgot the staff. in eye of the world M has a staff - just like G!<br />And if you want to talk about Tom Bombadil - it is obvious that he is the green man and the Ogier are the ents<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-02 16:48:38
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Why can't Mat be Gandolf?  They are both males.  They both have staffs.  They both have lives worth of knowledge.  They can both speak relatively uncommon languages...<br />   I don't really believe this but it's a thought.  It is just as likely as Moraine being G.


created: 2003-01-03 15:26:26
subject: <b>Opposite Gender</b>
body:
I agree with most of what is said, but are you suggesting that m and g are transvestites? i mean really that is disturbing. And g has a elvin blade, where is m's?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />My thoughts are not my own<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> BELA IS MY MASTER <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 14:03:34
subject: <b>What about the beard?</b>
body:
But wherever did Gandalf put that huge beard of his when being Moraine?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />The Force, Will Always Be With Me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />What, you think it's something wrong with my hat, PUNK?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Walking on sunshine!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Big brother sees you, always<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> What me worry?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 16:08:32
subject: <b>And So Much More</b>
body:
Moiraine is also Fizban and Zifnab and Belgarath and any one of a thousand other Beowolf archtypes.But she is by far the cutest arch hero since Xena!


created: 2003-05-04 18:59:12
subject: <b>Ripoff, Ripoff, tsk tsk...</b>
body:
You can't see it, but I'm tugging my braid right now.  Aren't there THOUSANDS of ripoffs in WoT from LotR?  Er, Misty Mountains.  Mountains of Mist.  Gollem.  Gholam.  Dark Lord.  Dark One.  Mount Doom.  Pit of Dhoom.  Myrddraal.  Black Riders.  Need I say more?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 19:19:28
subject: <b>Forgot...</b>
body:
Did I mention Bela and Bill?  Though, Bela, of course, is God, and well, Bill is just a horse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-17 08:06:49
subject: <b>To help the confused.</b>
body:
Moriane is a cross-dresser.<br />Or<br />Gandalf is a cross-dresser.<br />Explains the the opposite genders, so they are really the same person.


created: 2004-05-09 00:32:12
subject: <b>of course!</b>
body:
however you forgot the big one-<br /><br />                      THEY ARE BOTH MAGICAL<br /><br />its ok i understand i mean its practicaly a given and i don't know if chanaling is really magical<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Books are the blessed chloroform of the mind <br />-Robert Chambert<br /><br />The only thing we have to fear is fear itself <br />-FDR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-09 21:50:24
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
I agree with Evelyn... there are many similarities between Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time, and between many other fantasy books as well.  There are many authors who use wise, magical beings- equiping them with long dresses or robes and a nice ring and staff for looks.  Although there are many similarities, it doesn't seem to me that Moraine and Gandalf are all that alike compared to any other given wizard or like being in any other books.<br /><br />howvere, your findings are quite entertaining <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">im from Randland<br /><br />spread karma and throw pennies</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 16:20:38
subject: <b>ah hah!</b>
body:
actually, someone commented that aragorn didnt want his kingdom. <br /><br />well nither does lan. he didnt have to let himself be bonded.   ...or did he have a choice? dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuuun!<br /><br />great theory! i totally see it now! i am, like, so blind!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 03:03:10
subject: <b>that brings to mind...</b>
body:
I know this is the humor category, but take it seriously.<br /><br />Do you think RJ smooched the idea for Moiraine off LOTR? That would be bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-Violence is not the answer. It is the question. The answer is yes.<br /><br />-War doesn't determine who is right. It determines who is left.<br /><br />Dedicated follower of Asmodean and idolizer of the Chosen!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-18 19:25:01
subject: <b>fishy, eh</b>
body:
i always knew gandolf was a little odd. did u see the way he looked at frodo in the fellowship. queer....oh so queer.                   <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />madness waits 4 some, it creeps up on others, i asked 4 it.<br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />  mike


created: 2005-09-09 00:49:20
subject: <b>You're right,</b>
body:
you never have seen them together. How did I miss that one? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-03 22:29:26
subject: <b>I'm not satisfied yet</b>
body:
I almost believe this, but the only thing that will prove it for me is if Moiraine comes out of Finnland, and starts calling herself 'Moiraine the White'.  Or maybe Moiraine of the lighter blue ajah since white is like light grey and light blue is like...light blue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-11 15:11:56
subject: <b>Silly silly.</b>
body:
For those of you bring up the alleged similiarity between Aragorn and Lan, that Aragorn didn't claim his birthright or desire to claim it.  Three words.  Read the books.  It may be unwise of you to assume that by watching the movies, you have a complete grasp of LOTR.  The movies aren't the LOTR Gospel according to JRR...the books are.  So just be careful with generalities.   Ohh, and I don't think that our boy Lan is neglecting his fight with the shadow...he just realizes that some fights are better fought in other places than your enemies doorstep/frontyard/kitchen...  *shrug*


created: 2009-03-19 11:49:36
subject: <b>why this is</b>
body:
ok i have a great reason why the characters are similar...<br /><br />tolkien ripped of jordan!<br /><br />he had to copy at least 1 character, otherwise he would have ruined tLotR, and gandalf was an epic character in every way.<br /><br />i rest my case<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Galad shall forever be The Taint.... May The Shadow befal all those he talks to.&quot;   Grover about himself<br /><br />You put your cat in your hat and stuff it down your breeches, Rand al'Thor.   Egwene al'Vere</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-06 21:48:27
subject: <b>*ponders*</b>
body:
Well, The Wheel's either gonna break, or not. Myself, I lean towards it being broken, yet accompanied by a plot twist that puts a final end to the DO. But we all know it's just wishful thinking. Now I'm going to lay awake all night mulling this over...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 00:46:29
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
lots of people would love to see the wheel broken, because then it would fit more within the realm of possibility, but it's fantasy, and I think the the time and place of this story is just another cycle...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 01:07:58
subject: <b>You might be on to something</b>
body:
I'd like to know whether there were 3 ta'veren together as Rand, Mat, and Perrin are in the other ages just before Tarmon Gai'don. I don't remember this being mentioned anywhere else.  And with exceptionally strong Nynaeve and Egwene being loyal childhood friends as well, these  differences might truly make Rand's fight with the DO the Last Battle.  I certainly hope so, the whole story seems futile and pointless. Maybe I should stop reading now to save myselves heartache at the end. Naah. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-07 03:24:05
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
Not to jump off the subject here or anything but...why did I read the same thing twice on this theory? Word for word...a big fat copy and paste. Maybe he was trying to illustrate that time is circular or something. I dont know. My own opinion is kinda like this...<br /><br /><br />Why do we assume that our world fits into the WOT as the first age? Is it because the AOL is referred to as the second age and that is so obviously just one tiny step above ours? I am not attempting an essay on human nature here however.<br /><br />Close to the beginning of every book Jordan writes &quot;In one age, called the Third Age by some...&quot; This is the only point in ANY of the books that the age we are reading about is referred to as the Third Age in the narrative perspective.....and it is only called that by some.<br /><br />At the beginning of each book we are thrown a loop, be it directly or otherwise, by Jordan. The second paragraph of every book we assume &quot;This is how it is, let's get to the juicy stuff&quot;. Yet we overlook an OPINION in the NARRATIVE. Three words...[called][by some]. What can this mean?<br /><br />Logically speaking, this is not the Third Age. More likely it is the Fifth or Sixth. Three things in the series as well as the white book point directly to this. <br /><br />1) The skeleton on display whithin the Panarch's palace in Tanchico. The description of it (TSR, Egwene's POV, pgs 144 and 146) sounds nothing like a dragon as some have claimed. Rather it sounds like some tusked creature, a mammoth given the &quot;great age&quot; description of it. If it is indeed a mammoth then it lends credence to our age being that before the AOL. It also suggests that the fossils of earlier creatures would be either too far buried or demineralized to be found in this time. <br /><br />2) The somewhat repeated statements in both the series and the white book that the population is declining in both numbers and channeling ability. As far as the latter is concerned, yes it is declining. The fewer the people = the fewer the people who make up the percentage of channelers.<br /><br />3) The Land of Madmen. Described by the Sea Folk on page 150 of the white book. To summarize, it is populated by primitive people who exist in a tribal social structure.<br /><br />Point one suggests that there were creatures that are now extinct at some time or another. Possibly even dinosaurs.<br /><br />Points two and three obviously point to mankind itself being in a state of decline. Point three so casually shown as to surely suggest this.<br /><br />To summarize we are witnessing the decline of mankind. Tarmon'Gaidon is indeed the last battle. It is the last battle faught against the DO before mankind itself fades to myth. The logical order of ages could be something like this...<br /><br />1. Age of dinosaurs. Big lizards who weren't too bright. Most likely ending in a cosmic event. <br />2. Post dinos. Mostly mammals now. Mankind makes his appearance towards the end during the most recent &quot;Ice Age&quot;.<br />3. Genesis. Mankind is spreading. Civilization begins. However that is washed away when all that aforementioned ice melts. Thank you Noah for your foresight. <br />4. Our time. We dream of ways to do things great with minimal work. Hence our technology and rudimentary belief in magic. <br />5.AOL. Begins with the discovery of magic(channeling). Great things done here. We know how this one ends.<br />6. Randland. Mankind is slowly fading away. Most likely it will end with the DO being sealed away and, as a consequece of that, the OP as well. <br />7. Post-Randland. Mankind struggles to maintain what it has. However, due to the lack of technology and channeling, it is destroyed by a cosmic event or a planetwide rebellion by nature.<br /><br />To refute some potential arguments:<br />1. There have indeed been numerous &quot;Ice Ages&quot; in the past as displayed by modern geological studies.<br />2. I am Christian, but the birth of Christ cannot truly be considered an age changing event. It occured during the height of the Roman empire and it's main effect was to be one of the most recognized religions of today- not the sole religion.<br />3. Tarmon'Gaidon may be called &quot;the Last Battle&quot; by the people of Randland. That doesn't mean it is the LAST battle. I'm sure the people of that time like the idea of a LAST battle vs. the idea of a NEXT battle. <br />4. Time is circular- not linear. When on this planet the earth sure seems pretty linear, when it is in fact quite circular (spherical).<br />


created: 2002-04-07 03:55:50
subject: <b>It IS just another turning.</b>
body:
RJ, Marcon Interview (on Articles of WoTmania)<br /><br />Question (Asked by someone in the audience) <br />&quot;At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?&quot; <br />Answer <br />&quot;No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.&quot; <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 13:34:05
subject: <b>I may be wrong...</b>
body:
But isn't the K. Cycle a book of prophesy?<br />I don't remember seeing that it was a book from the Fourth Age, and I do remember hearing that items from the AoL are rare to come by, so a book that originated six Ages ago probably would not survive. <br /><br />Just a comment on &quot;(how else would people be able to write the K. Cycle about it in the fourth Age for Rand to read later?)&quot;<br /><br />my two cents...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">________________<br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-07 14:24:28
subject: <b>...an ending.</b>
body:
I believe Jordan will keep with the cyclical nature of the universe he has created and will end things as he began many chapters.  There are neither beginings nor endings in the Wheel of Time but it was an ending.


created: 2002-04-07 18:32:56
subject: <b>I think we have a winner...</b>
body:
&gt;&quot;No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes &gt;this Age any different from any other turnings of the &gt;Wheel. The Wheel is endless.&quot; 	<br /><br />&gt;I believe Jordan will keep with the cyclical nature of the &gt;universe he has created and will end things as he began &gt;many chapters. There are neither beginings nor endings in &gt;the Wheel of Time but it was an ending.<br /><br />I'll have to agree with this, for certain.  Although Rand is rebellious enough to break the wheel if he could (which is doubtful since the wheel doesn't seem to e a tangible thing), since he refers to not wanting to be a puppet or having his destiny chosen for him, I don't think it can happen.  Tarmon Gaidan will probably be an ending to the thousands of fights that Rand in countless forms has fought, since our Forsaken friend has claimed this to be the &quot;last time&quot; they do battle.  Even so, there is no ending to the turning of the wheel, and so, it can only be AN ending.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">B r <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> k e n  C u e n d i l l a r</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 08:54:37
subject: <b>I've always hated Linear time theories...</b>
body:
but with this one, you've at least made me accept that Linear time could be the outcome of TG. If that's the case, I don't think that Rand would let the DO escape, but that, either Rand or more likely Fain kills the DO in some fashion. I say Fain, because I could see him trying to kill Rand, but accidentally touching the DO with evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the DO reacting with the evil of SL killing each other off, like the way Rand cleansed the Taint by channeling it through the evil of SL. If the DO is to be destroyed IMO, it's either by Rand doing something that's never done before or by an Evil that's nearly as great as that of the DO, which could be that of Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />I still hate any Linear Time theories, but maybe this is really the last &quot;The Last Age&quot; and the DO will either be destroyed or that IT will remake the world in its image. <br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 12:49:55
subject: <b>There is always a Last Battle</b>
body:
and it never really is the LAST Battle.  The most obvious evidence for this is Nicola's Foretelling in LoC, CH 14 Dreams and Nightmares.  <br /><br />Also the Karaethon Cycle comes from an Aes Sedai's Foretelling in the AoL, evidence of this is in tSR, CH 26 The Dedicated.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 00:19:06
subject: <b>Nature of preserving/destroying and the wheel</b>
body:
Ok, you have a lot of good points and all, but I have to go with an eventual repetition.<br /> <br />I don't know why people think the series would be a waste of time if it is just one turning of the wheel.  How does the fact that problems will one day arise again belittle or demean the importance of the &quot;Last Battle&quot; that would end Rand's age.  Saving something from destruction doesn't mean it will always be safe later on, just that it isn't destroyed for good.<br /><br />Realistic stories don't have to include a stark finality that is only ever found in Holywood.  Good stories acknowledge that there are things that are outside the scope of that story to tell, other problems that are other peoples to fix. Not everything is like a TV sitcom where it all raps up in 30 minutes.


created: 2002-04-10 03:50:57
subject: <b>Some Clarification...</b>
body:
First, my theory is just that it will end one of these two ways. I tend to think that it will end as a cycle (possibly with Ishmael taunting the Dragon of the NEXT second age like the beginning of TEOTW, I think that would be a cool bookend), however much I'd like it to end with Rand allowing the DO to be freed.<br /><br />Jack_And_Coke: I'm not sure what word for word repetition you mean. Sorry if anything was confusing, it's a complex subject to follow. I don't think it really matters what number people want to ascribe to this age, it's all the same isn't it (one of seven)? May as well call it Third since most do...<br /><br />Green Gaidin: I took that quote to mean that there's nothing _inherently_ special about this age. I think that's what RJ meant. Because he and his characters have also clearly said that the Wheel isn't guarenteed an infinite existence. If the DO breaks out, it's over with, as he's said himself. To take your quote literally, he's assured us that the DO will never break out because we would know that it will last forever, which he isn't saying. So I think you have to understand he's saying this age is like any other Third Age, but Rand may not necessarily be like any other Dragon, _if_ he lets the DO out, which remains to be seen.<br /><br />Moxyll: I was of course wrong in saying that the Karethean Cycle is from the 4th Age. I meant to refer to the various 4th Age Histories in the header prophesies/histories of TEOTW and LoC, and afterward prophesies/histories of DR, TSR and TFoH...<br /><br />Locksmith: Ishmael says there is an &quot;end of time&quot; and RJ says that freeing the DO will do the same. The name &quot;Creator&quot; implies there indeed was a beginning, and if we knew there wouldn't be an end, we'd also know that the DO would never be freed. So there is the possibility of time &quot;ending,&quot; and most in the books assume that this would be a very bad thing (the DO breaking free). One has to wonder if Fel and LTT are encouraging just that (as I can't imagine what else breaking the seals would do...).<br /><br />Jim: I'm glad you brought up Nicola's fortelling, I forgot to mention it. I think it is definitely compatible with an endgame scenario. &quot;The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.&quot; Could mean, the DO is gone, but humanity now turns it's gaze on each other, such as... &quot;The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.&quot; The land is divided by Seanchan who apparently occupy half of Randland by that point. Think it'll be a big &quot;kumbaya?&quot; As many characters have demonstrated, humanity is capable of war without Trollocs and Forsaken. Also, how could the &quot;future teeter on the edge of a blade&quot; as Nicola says if the DO is sealed away again? The future would be very clearly established (the whole cycle thing) right?<br /><br />Heimy: Yes, good stories shouldn't end with nothing left to imagine, neatly wrapped in a bow. But isn't that just what happens when everything continues on like clockwork in a loop? What's left to imagine? Unless Rand does something drastic, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN! We're just reading to see how he gets there. I don't see how the actual breaking of the Wheel doesn't open up a ton of worms for us to ponder once the series ends...


created: 2002-04-10 14:36:28
subject: <b>No Beginnings And No Endings . . .</b>
body:
I personally believe that Rand will complete this turn of the wheel and time will continue on in its circular fashion.<br /><br />I would LOVE to see a series epilogue at the very end of the last book in which first we see Ishmael or another surviving Forsaken talking to a mad Rand, and second we see, thousands of years into the future, a young boy (or girl) travelling with his father to the market in which a strange black-cloaked figure is nearby, suddenly there and suddenly gone . . . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />That would be very cool!<br /><br />Also, the taint the DO placed on the male half of the One Power seems like a one-time thing when its described in the white index book.  Perhaps this time the DO will inflict some equally damning taint on another aspect of Aes Sedai life.  Then we'd have another Breaking and another mad or injured LTT (Rand).<br /><br />Of course, many would like to see the pattern broken, the Wheel turned into a Line, and Rand continues on with his happy life.  I don't see that happening.<br /><br />Bottom line, I will accept either ending to the series with open arms, but I'd like to see our Wheel go 'round one more time.<br /><br />After the WoT seriers is finished, we need to read it again from Loial's POV.  I wish we could see some of what he's been working on all this time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-10 18:06:39
subject: <b>In response to your clarification</b>
body:
josh24601 the phrase about beginnings and endings is a paraphrase from the 1st chapter (not the prologue but the first chapter) of every book.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-10 19:43:54
subject: <b>What Jack_and_Coke was talking about...</b>
body:
was that when the theory was first posted, the entire theory was there twice. The theory, and then the theory cut and pasted again, the the admin's comments. But now.. it's NOT!<br />Are Jack_and_Coke and I <i>BOTH</i> imagining things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />, or did an admin go back and change it?<br /><br />Anyway, I don't think the Dark One will get free, the Wheel will continue. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 02:01:50
subject: <b>Sound like....</b>
body:
Uh, if its just one age out of many and it happens again and again and this one is no diffrent it will leave a sour flavor in some peoples mouths... but then alot of Anime has that sort of a feeling to it also.<br /><br />PersonallY I think this is the last.


created: 2002-04-16 05:03:01
subject: <b>One thing to notice...</b>
body:
I think RJ gives us hints at the end of the books to show us it's going to be cyclic.  At the end of books 3, 4, &amp; 5, during the prologue, he put songs from the 4th Age.  I've assumed this to mean that someone is writing this story during the 4th Age as a history of what happened.<br /><br />maybe?


created: 2002-05-06 15:11:43
subject: <b>perhaps....</b>
body:
we are reading Loial's book?<br /><br />hmm.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is easier to stab someone in the back<br />  then to look them in the eye.<br />Society is built upon this principle<br />  and is universal amongst those who rule.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 19:45:32
subject: <b>You know what the endless wheel theory is really saying, right?</b>
body:
RJ will never finish this series until they &quot;nail his coffin shut.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Rand will defeat the Dark One at TG and everyone will celebrate. Then the epilogue will begin with, &quot;History becomes legend and legend fades to myth ...&quot;<br /><br />Three years later, another book will come out that is similar to EotW, following another young shepherd.<br /><br />RJ will keep writing and writing and writing and writing until his books become legend. The legend will fade to myth and then forgotten by the time the age that gave them birth comes back.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Myrddin<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-29 23:52:34
subject: <b>Well Myrdrrin...</b>
body:
Can't say as that I've thought of that before but I like your line of thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />After all, I'm sure Mr. Jordan could use the revenue since I don't think this turning of his Wheel has sold well enough....errrr?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 16:06:11
subject: <b>Balefire?</b>
body:
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but what about Balefire? If Rand has been running around whacking the Foresaken with Balefire, then what happens during the next turn? I thought that the theory was Balefire would burn a thread out of the tapestry of life or whatever its called. If thats the case then the DO isn't gonna have his same set of goonies next time the wheel spins around.<br /><br />Balefire is one thing that has always confused me. RJ refers to times when &quot;whole cities&quot; were burned out of time. So then time isn't exactly cyclic is it?<br /><br />For some reason through all of this, I believe that Rand is gonna end up sealing away the dark one in a bright new shiny prison without holes for the AS to bore into later and thus time will repeat. But how?


created: 2002-10-30 07:03:23
subject: <b>Cyclic, but different</b>
body:
Just a thought on the thoughts above. <br />If a Forsaken is Balefired then he/she is gone, and if its a powerful enough stream then the DO can't ressurrect them in another body.<br />But there are plenty of Darkfriends who would love to be given the chance to Nae'Blis, so I am certain that for the next cycle a new Forsaken could be chosen to replace those lost and they would be just as evil. Possibly Taim could elevate himself that high? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Also Whole cities being balefired is pretty much ripping them out of the pattern and for them then time is not cyclical, but on a world wide view, time continues, and one city here or there doesn't stop the wheel turning. Hence the Breaking whilst Geographies changed the wheel still turns.<br />Just some thoughts. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> <br />The_Hutt Thinking thoughts<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />The_Hutt<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those are brave men lets go kill them&quot; Tyrion Lannister</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-23 04:30:16
subject: <b>Some comments</b>
body:
I have several comments regarding the ending of the series.  Firstly, in reference to the quotes from Jordan indicating that this age is not special, the cycle will continue, etc., what else could he say?  Even if the Last Battle ends the cycle and makes time linear, he could not very well tell us that without giving away the entire ending.  At this point in the series everything we know leaves the possibility that the cycle will simply continue.  I think Jordan works from that assumption without adding details from his own knowledge of how the series ends.  <br /><br />Secondly, regarding the above assertion, &quot;Realistic stories don't have to include a stark finality that is only ever found in Holywood.&quot;  Perhaps not, but there is something in the human psyche that, in most cases, desires finality at the end of a tale, or at least a happy resolution.  The story may go on, but not in such a way that invalidates the events of the preceding narrative altogether.  I do not believe Jordan would abandon this principle.  I agree with the comment that it would be rather anti-climactic to find out that the entire series recounts only the story of one Age from one amongst an infinite number of cycles.  Jordan tells the tale of these specific people in this specific Age because they are particularly special.<br /><br />Finality, or happy ending, is certainly not only to be found in Hollywood.  Most fairy tales and legends, which represent the truths discovered by our ancestors, also cling to the decisive ending, with good victorious over evil in a definite and unalterable way.<br /><br />Besides, what make a better (more enjoyable, profitable, etc.) story: hero wins but goes mad and allows cycle of threat/struggle/evil to continue OR hero wins against all odds and does what no one believed possible?


created: 2002-04-08 01:02:28
subject: <b>Seriously, I had no idea.</b>
body:
I didn't know at all that it was edited, or anything else beyond what I'd read there. I feel like a complete bleeding idiot now, but I suppose it's for a good cause.


created: 2002-04-08 09:49:30
subject: <b>Someone killed Asmodean?!?!?!?</b>
body:
OK just kidding.<br />It was Moridin, right? &quot;Death took him.&quot; Yeah, must be. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br />Oh wait, Jordan said it wasn't that lame of a pun.<br /><br />Anyone think we'll get a POV saying &quot;yeah, like when I kill Asmodean, with my own hands, under my own will, no Compulsion, in the pantry&quot;? Would that be nice? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 11:55:57
subject:
<b>It's all good LS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I've just been really annoyed the past month or so because several people on the message board kept quoting this as a confirmation from Robert Jordan, which it is not.  I have just been waiting for someone to submit it to the theory post so that wotmania can have a record of exactly what was going on.  I'm glad you submitted it, I've been waiting for a long time for someone to do so.  So it's all good.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Graendal did kill him though.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 00:13:47
subject: <b>Wait. RJ said tat Graendal killed Asmo?</b>
body:
lol. Kidding unc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 01:44:04
subject: <b>Well, since it truly is for a good cause...</b>
body:
In fact, it's probably not all that bad to have one's name attached to proof that some things are never that easy. ^_^<br /><br />Of course, what's funny is that this has been proven absolutely invalid, been denounced by the one who wrote it, and still managed to get fifteen percent of the people who voted on it to vote a yes. ^^<br /><br />Pity it's too good to be true, though. ^^


created: 2002-04-11 17:24:23
subject: <b>Got it... but why Graendel?</b>
body:
Robert Jordan makes me feel like a complete idiot!  &quot;It should be obvious,&quot; he said (or something along those lines)... well, not to me!  I've seen arguments for and against Graendel as the killer.  Someone mentioned that Graendel's own POV later in the series showed that she was unaware of the killer.  If any of you have some concrete evidence that it was Graendel... well, let me in on it.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-24 21:32:24
subject: <b>Yes - it was</b>
body:
Actually, it is possible to eliminate just about everyone as a suspect except Graendal. Sammy's a little tricky, but the fact that Graendal was helping Rahvin and Sammy (albeit int he next book) doesn't know Asmos fate, that leaves only her as a possible killer.<br /><br />The exact reasons why have been discussed before. If you wnat some fun reading them, do a google serach in the newsgroup for Sherlock Holmes.<br /><br />EJL


created: 2002-07-18 19:31:53
subject: <b>It really was...</b>
body:
OJ!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Heh, Heh... Aiel are cool! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 03:55:18
subject: <b>I agree that Graendal did it, but as for RJ's statement...</b>
body:
He has always been quite adament about <i>not</i> telling who killed Asmodean. He likes to see us squirm so to speak. The &quot;that&quot; means &quot;who killed Asmodean,&quot; not that Graendal did it. If he were to mean to tell it in that interview, he would tell it in others. And he has made it quite clear that he's <i>not</i> going to tell us. We're going to have to Read And Find Out. The<br /><br />&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot;<br /><br />part should make it entirely clear that he's not telling us who did the deed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 12:12:07
subject: <b>VERY interesting theory...</b>
body:
but we'll have to see if the Ogier in Seanchin were affected by the Longing. From what is said in the Guide they may not be. I think we'll have to RAFO <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 13:43:35
subject: <b>Tainted Love?</b>
body:
Sorry, Manson was just on the radio.<br />This is an interesting post. Can't say I really agree with it, but still interesting. <br />I look forward to seeing more of the Seanchan Ogier and how/if the Longing affects them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 14:24:20
subject: <b>Another thing that needs accounting:</b>
body:
Loial was in close proximity with Rand (VERY close) for quite awhile.  Rand suffers from the Taint.  If it is male Forsaken that was causing it, Rand would be as well.<br /><br />Now, you mentioned the direct link to the DO.  At that point, Rand had a strong IN-direct link of some kind.  He was absolutely hounded through his dreams and whatever tracking they were able to do. <br /><br />Lastly, during the books, Loial eventually expressed aspects of the Longing.  Maybe this is because of events as you say.  But...we also know from Elder Hamen that he has been gone a very long time and that they are quite concerned for him.  Plus, the Longing is tied to despair in some ways.  And Loial has seen quite enough to make him feel despair and be weary, and needed a break.<br /><br />None of what I say firmly disproves it, of course, but they are items that need to be accounted for.


created: 2002-04-08 17:39:36
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
I really like the first part, the second part i'm not sure about.  I do like your theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 20:02:06
subject: <b>A possible source of the knowledge</b>
body:
A possible source for how to create the &quot;channel-free zone&quot; is Mat's foxhead medallion.  It doesn't get affected by the OP, so maybe if they can figure out how it works, that could be expanded to create a new stedding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">________________<br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 21:24:37
subject: <b>Me likes</b>
body:
I like this theory. I'm still not sure about the Ogier being tainted by the True power or saiden or w/e, but it certainly is interesting. I just don't think that the longing is connected to saiden or the TP because they really don't display the symptom that any of the forsaken that use the TP and they don't seem to go mad, they just are physically hurt from being gone too long. But, it could be that hey are actually affected by it, but oh well, its all idle speculation. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 22:58:06
subject: <b>Links</b>
body:
The first part of your theory makes a lot of sense to me, in certain aspects. It seems to me that since the Ogier are hyper sensitive to the One power, and evil (assuming this is the reason for the reaction to the two Forsaken- granted that both were male, but I suspect Ogier would sense any Forsaken, and only men experience the taint on the Power) that it is exactly this sensitivity that makes them yearn for the stedding. Kind of like how we would yearn for clean country air after spending too long in a badly ventilated and busy parking garage! Not to mention the health hazards that this obviously has on us! Perhaps it's a kind of spiritual pollution for the Ogier.


created: 2002-04-09 03:19:01
subject: <b>In defence of my theory</b>
body:
Well, if one cannot defend one's theory, it shouldn't have been posted in the first place.  So here we go:<br /><br /><b>Vercingetorix</b><br /><i>I don't think you can say that &quot;Obviously the taint seeps into the Ogier&quot; without even considering the other possibility for the explanation of the longing.</i><br /><br />I actually have consider other causes, but based on the previous statements I used the word &quot;obviously&quot; as a word to enforce my argument.  Perhaps I should have used, &quot;It is therefore my assertion that...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>And that is simply that the Ogier were just away from the stedding for a very long time, which caused them to get the Longing. This may very well be the same with the Ogier Longing, so it is certainly possible that the Longing remains.</i><br /><br />Do you mean to say that in the entire Age of Legends that no Ogier had been out of the Stedding long enough to experience the longing?  I find that highly doubtful that not 1 Ogier had been out long enough to begin to experience the longing.  In <i>The Shadow Rising</i> the Ogier states:<br /><br /><i>&quot;I think we must find a stedding soon or die. I feel a... longing... in my bones.  We must find a stedding.  We must&quot;.</i><br /><br />This statement implies that they had no knowledge of the longing before the breaking.<br /><br /><br /><i>Also, it has been stated that once the taint is cleaned from saidin that nothing is healed, only that further madness/corruption is halted.</i><br /><br />This is true for a male channeler who (I believe) has his body essentially used as a means of removing the taint from <i>Saidin</i>.  We have no evidence that any male weave is tainted in and of itself (only believed to be so), only that the channeler feels stained afterwards.  But the Ogier are not male channelers and so do not react in the same way.  The way Loial talks, it sounds as if he had a long rest in a stedding he would be good for another 5+ years outside.  The Ogier only seem to need time to recoup before permanent damage is done.<br /><br /><i>Also note that Shayol Ghul was originally a resort island in a cool sea. Certainly the change there is reflected with the overall theme of good/peaceful to evil/violent better than Shayol Ghul changing to a stedding.</i><br /><br />I dunno, the transition seems reasonable to me.  In <i>The Great Hunt</i> Hurin said stedding smelled as if there had never been violence done there.  Quite the opposite of Shayol Ghul I would say.<br /><br /><br /><b>Vashti</b><br /><i>Loial was in close proximity with Rand (VERY close) for quite awhile. Rand suffers from the Taint. If it is male Forsaken that was causing it, Rand would be as well.<br /><br />Now, you mentioned the direct link to the DO. At that point, Rand had a strong IN-direct link of some kind. He was absolutely hounded through his dreams and whatever tracking they were able to do. </i><br /><br />Good point!  Any answer to this one is pure supposition, due to a lack of evidence to go on.  But I'll try anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />We do know that in both Tear and Illian that Loial and the Ogier stone workers could sense something wrong.  Now we do know that the Forsaken have not been affected by the taint because of their protection, and we do know that they are ordiany human channelers.  Their only difference is their link to the Dark One that prevents them from dieing, or suffering from the taint.  If may have to do with an active vs. passive state as well.  It may be that the link is in an active state, whereas the taint absorbed by male channelers is in a neutral state.  Like a chemical reaction, before it reacted it was in a volatile state, once having been reacted is stable.<br /><br />Furthermore, it could be that there is not enough taint in Rand to amount to a hill of beans in term of perception to Loial.  Very small amounts of some poison will kill, you wouldn't even taste them.  Or maybe like the fact that Ogier seem sensitive to the Mashadar, but Loial didn't have any sense of Mat's dagger (maybe RJ just screwed up with that one! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> ).  Those are several possible answers that cannot be (dis)proven without more information from future novels.<br /><br /><i>Lastly, during the books, Loial eventually expressed aspects of the Longing. Maybe this is because of events as you say. But...we also know from Elder Hamen that he has been gone a very long time and that they are quite concerned for him. Plus, the Longing is tied to despair in some ways. And Loial has seen quite enough to make him feel despair and be weary, and needed a break.</i><br /><br />Precisely my point!  Loial has &quot;absorbed&quot; or otherwise been affected by the presence of the taint for long enough that, as he told Perrin, visits to stedding are not enough.  He needs time to &quot;detoxify&quot; himself.  The ability of the Ogier groves to reduce the effects of the longing and despair to increase it only make sense.  If some one is ill, they feel better and resist infection better if they are in a good mood, around family, or have good entertainment.  If you are feeling ill, you feel doubly as bad and tend to get sicker quicker if the weather is lousy outside (or you find out your friend dropped your first edition signed copy of <i>Eye of the World</i> in the mud<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />I hope that I clarified my position a little better.  Please let me know if my arguments are full of crud or if you have any more to that you would like answered.  Either way we may only have to wait until November to find out.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Remember we have just ended the Age of Illusions.  Change has come, male channelers are no longer going to go insane (except for maybe Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ), maybe change has come for the Ogier at the same time.  Furthermore, there are going to be massive changes in the world, especially in terms of perceptions and political/social power structures.  In fact you could say that with the amount of social upheaval that has taken place, and with significantly more about to take place that the Dragon really has broken the world again (but that is another theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-09 08:30:18
subject: <b>Query?</b>
body:
If Ogier are sensitve to the evil of the Forsaken, why didn't Loial react to Lanfear when she was travelling with them as Selene?


created: 2002-04-09 12:31:58
subject: <b>In response to you response</b>
body:
<b>Do you mean to say that in the entire Age of Legends that no Ogier had been out of the Stedding long enough to experience the longing? I find that highly doubtful that not 1 Ogier had been out long enough to begin to experience the longing.</b><br /> <br />Yes, it's quite possible that Ogier were never out long enough to develop the Longing.  Remember in the AoL there was all sorts of transportation which could allow an Ogier to work far from a <i>stedding</i> and still be able to sleep there at night.<br /><br /><b>In The Shadow Rising the Ogier states:<br />&quot;I think we must find a stedding soon or die. I feel a... longing... in my bones. We must find a stedding. We must&quot;.<br /><br />This statement implies that they had no knowledge of the longing before the breaking.</b><br /><br />This is a pretty big assumption on your part, that because one Ogier had never experienced it, none had.  any statistics class will tell you that your sample size is way too small to make that kind of an observation.<br /><br />Anyway, I don't think it's likely that the taint on <i>saidin</i> caused the Longing, but I guess it's possible.  I find it very hard to believe that every <i>stedding</i> is a patch on the DO's prison, for a few reasons.  One if you're correct that some of them get burried whenever there is a Breaking and there are still some above ground, then there must be almost infinately many, which leads me to wonder where did Ogier live during the first few turnings of the Wheel?  Also, I believe that a patch can not be made to make the DO's prison well wnough so that it would be as good as new, therefore, the prison must be remade.  Which shouldn't be too hard with Rand and Alivia weilding the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 16:30:01
subject: <b>In Response to Jim's Response to Your Response</b>
body:
Jim, I agree with your first point about transportation in the AoL, but I would like to take a shot at your second...<br /><br />The quote from the post-breaking ogier in TSR does in fact indicate that, if any ogier in the AoL ever experienced the longing, it was not common knowledge. This quote describes something that has not yet entered the ogier lexicon, if you will. <br /><br />I have to say that I really like the idea that the ogier are damaged by the taint, which is why they must periodically return to the stedding to detox. I don't think, though, that they are sensitive to either the forsaken or the TP. It is more likely that they are sensitive to the pattern, which would be building up for big doings in both Illian and Tear, for which they didn't want to be around.<br /><br />Now I'm really curious about the Seachan Ogier, and whether or not they experience the longing. Either they were already in Seanchan before Hawkwing's armies got there, or they were brought over by Hawkwing. Either way they would have experienced the breaking and subsequent wanderings. Maybe it's something in the Westlands that causes it - proximity to Shayol Ghul or something.<br /><br />All in all, keep thinking out of the box...<br /><br />my $0.02.<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 16:58:03
subject: <b>Why would Hawkwing's armies...</b>
body:
bring Ogier <b>to</b> Seanchan?<br /><br />Anyway, about the Longing, the Guide(page 194) says:<br />&quot;Since [the Breaking] the Ogier do not leave the <i>stedding</i> for extensive periods. If an Ogier stays Outside to long, the Longing takes him and he brigins to weaken. If he does not return, he dies. <b><i>Though this was not true durring the Age of Legends, the long Exile appearantly sensitized the Survivors and their descendants so that all Ogier are now bound to</i> stedding.</b>&quot; (Emphasis added)<br /><br />However, this says nothing about the Ogier who remained in the <i>stedding</i> through the breaking. Probably they intermarried with the Exiles when the Exiles returned, but maybe there are some Ogier in Seanchan(or Shara, or somewhere else) that didn't and aren't affected by the Longing. I guess we'll have to RAFO <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 17:29:28
subject: <b>Very interesting theory</b>
body:
I wouldn't say that the Longing is obviously caused by the taint, though.  It could well be though, and the way you present it is quite interesting.<br /><br />I don't have the Guide with me, but I remember something about the chora trees being present in every city of the AOL and playing an appeasing role.  As far as we know, the Ogier lived indifferently among the humans or in their stedding in the AOL and worked with Aes Sedai and the Aiel at something we don't quite know the end of right now. Agriculture in part, but what more?  RAFO.<br /><br />What the Ogier of this Age might have forgotten is what allowed them to come out of their Stedding and join the humans in the first place.  In the AOL there was no Longing, but before?  Or was the Longing unknown simply because what could prevent it appeared in human civilization before the first Ogier to come out knew the Longing? <br /><br />I think the Longing could have resulted of the destruction of some Stedding-like quality necessary to them and present in the human cities before the Breaking, for instance the chora trees, that might have allowed the Ogier to live among the humans during the AOL.  Or perhaps it was the Singing or something they used to perform in the AOL that provided them benefits that prevented the Longing. When they ceased that activity, living in their stedding became necessary.


created: 2002-04-10 19:50:53
subject: <b>Dom</b>
body:
Chora trees could have prevented the Longing, but I find it doubtful.<br />For example, Rand's Aiel ancestor in TSR had chora saplings with him when he met the Ogier, but despite the presense of chora trees the Ogier still felt a &quot;longing.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 22:02:18
subject: <b>I'll try one more time</b>
body:
<b>The quote from the post-breaking ogier in TSR does in fact indicate that, if any ogier in the AoL ever experienced the longing, it was not common knowledge. This quote describes something that has not yet entered the ogier lexicon, if you will.</b><br /><br />It doesn't matter whether it was common knowledge or not, if it happened at all then it couldn't have been caused by the taint.<br /><br /><b>Now I'm really curious about the Seachan Ogier, and whether or not they experience the longing. Either they were already in Seanchan before Hawkwing's armies got there, or they were brought over by Hawkwing. Either way they would have experienced the breaking and subsequent wanderings. Maybe it's something in the Westlands that causes it - proximity to Shayol Ghul or something.</b><br /><br />The Seancahn Ogier, which were probably in Seanchan to begin with since it's unlikely that Hawkwing sent Ogier with his ships, since it'd be hard to convince them to leave with their having to deal with the Longing.  Therefore, it's possible that the Ogier who were in Seanchan found the <i>stedding</i> quicker than the ones in the Westlands.  They also seem to have retained more of the formidable angry and dangerous, you'll note that few talk about the Seanchan Death Guard, but no one would talk to Mat about the Ogier.<br /><br />Once we see how the Seanchan Ogier are, whether or not they're affected by the Longing, then we'll have a better idea as to what caused the Longing.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 04:26:24
subject: <b>MALE Forsaken.....</b>
body:
If the Ogier were sensitive to the taint, and not necessarily evil (the forsaken's link to the DO, whatever), then male channelers in general would be setting off ogier alarms (Rand, Black Tower, etc). And if Lanfear didn't trip anything.... It still could be taint related... maybe taint and evil, or something like that.... I really like, and could believe that the Longing is Taint related. If the steadings don't 'allow' in the OP in either of it's two varities.... and if the Longing is purged by spending time in the Steading, then it's totally plausable that the Longing is taint/OP related.<br /><br />Maybe RJ screwed up on the not sensing Lanfear....<br /><br />Maybe it had something to do with proximity to the Forsaken. Maybe it had something to do with power of the forsaken. Maybe it's a Saidin/Saidar related issue.<br /><br />The Male Aes Sedia DID spend quite a bit of time in the Steading after the taint (and in return, built the ways for them, right?). Maybe something to do with the duration of time spent with the Ogier by the Male Sedai.... Who knows..... Only RJ (if that....)<br /><br />Thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 04:34:01
subject: <b>ogier might be sensitive/ able to use the saidin/saidar</b>
body:
Well, an ogier might be able tu utilitize saidin/saidar in ways that humas dont. Thus making them alike to the nym or a ter'angreal. This might also explain why loial did not sense Lanfear, Loial is male, he only feels Saidin, a female ogier might have been able to sense Lanfear..


created: 2003-01-18 20:17:18
subject: <b>What about Seanchan Ogier?</b>
body:
I think this is a very good theory but i have one question. What about the Ogier that came with the Seanchan? it must have taken them some time to cross the Aryth Ocean, and even more time now that they're in battles and the like. thank you for listening, thats all.


created: 2003-01-31 08:31:19
subject: <b>What if the Seanchan Ogier</b>
body:
are different from the Ogier we're familiar with (as Aiel are different from Tinkers)?  Loial speaks of &quot;putting a long handle on his axe&quot; as becoming angry or shifting something fundamental within himself.  If the Seanchan Ogier gave up their tree-singing and everything else to focus on their long-handled axes, would they be immune to the longing?


created: 2003-04-11 05:00:34
subject: <b>The Forsaken and Ogier</b>
body:
It seems clear that the ogier in Illian and Loial in Tear were not affected by the presense of male Forsaken but rather by the Forsaken's affect on the humans of the respective cities.<br />   In other words, The Forsaken, by not making any effort to shield the citizens of the cities in question from their dreams, caused the humans to become surly and whatnot.<br />   Thus,the ogier were responding the the bad 'aura' given off by the humans which, in turn, was caused by the careless evil of the Forsaken.<br />   This explains why Loial was not affected by Lanfear when she was posing as Selande(?). Lanfear was going incognito and didn't want to be discovered.<br /> <br />    Sorry about the lack of backup material, but I'm feeling a bit lazy right now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="darkolivegreen"><font face="impact"><br />DISTUSO</font> says:</font><font color="darkgray"><i>You're not going insane, you're going sane in an insane world!</i><br /></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-13 19:38:56
subject: <b>Interesting theort</b>
body:
But-----Moiraine, Lan and Perrin also experienced the same did-ease that Loial did.  Faile asked Perrin what was the matter {with him}.  She apparently didn`t pick up on the mood of the City.<br /><br />That word in 2nd sentence should read &quot;dis-ease&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 23:24:37
subject: <b>Why not someone older?</b>
body:
If Gaidal could take over a body that is already alive and he wanted to catch up to Birgitte why not someone that is older than Olver?


created: 2002-04-09 00:08:21
subject: <b>The Heroes of the horn are spun out</b>
body:
They are spun out of TAR into the pattern. They don't spin themselves out.<br /><br />This is why Gaidal took Olvers body, the pattern put his spitit there.<br /><br /><br />On another point, one problem with Olver being Gaidal is that Brigette said that Gaidal was always impulsive, hot headed &amp; made it seem he was not overly bright when Brigette was not around to balance him out.<br /><br />We have already seen that Olver is clever, sneaky, a hit with the ladies &amp; a great manipulator.<br /><br />RAFO


created: 2002-04-09 00:41:20
subject: <b>yeah but that's a huge difference in age, Stone Dog...</b>
body:
but yes you are right good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 01:58:43
subject: <b>i swear i heard this argument before</b>
body:
did anyone else?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 05:58:32
subject: <b>yeah...</b>
body:
I've actually heard this argument on the message board before, too.  I noticed it myself the third time I re-read the series; before I found this site.<br /><br />Thom's line in EOTW is, in my opinion, VERY important.  Not only does it set up the Gaidal Cain thing, it also helps explain why Thom says it to Rand.  If I remember correctly, Rand says something to Thom about the dead taking over the bodies of the living, and it elicits this sharp response.<br /><br />Interesting, considering that a few books later Rand starts hearing Lews Therin's voice.  Also, Lews Therin often attempts to seize control of Rand's body at times.  <br /><br />So, we've seen this in action.  And we all know how Robert Jordan frequently gives us hints WAY in advance of when they should be important.  ALso, the hints have broad ramifications.  This is interesting to me, especially since we already have proof that this stuff is already happening.<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-09 10:01:44
subject: <b>uhh...</b>
body:
None of the Olver-Gaidal stuff makes sense.  If he had done it to catch up with Birgitte, how come he left while she was still in T'A'R?  I don't have the books around but she mentions Gaidal being spun out before Mogy chucks her out.  I would think the Thom quote refers more to the 'gars and Cyndane and perhaps Slayer if it refers to anything.  Just my $.02 ...


created: 2002-04-09 13:16:36
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
I have seen this argument a hundred times.  I would be suprised if it wasn't already on the theory post as well.  <br /><br />There is no reason to suppose that heroes of the horn are born into other peoples bodies.  That line from Thom most likely (if it has a meaning beyond speculation) refers to the Forsaken taking over the bodies of others when they are raised by the DO. <br /><br />There is ample evidence that time flows funny in T'A'R.  We have no understanding of how the heroes of the horn were brought <i>partially</i> into the waking world at Falme.  It is possible that Birgitte and Gaidal Caine when they met Nynaeve and Elayne and at Falme actually were 7 to eight years behind in time the waking world.  (We know this is possible because the Sun is often shining during the night in T'A'R-Thus showing that the entire Earth is behind (or ahead) in its rotation.  In other words, in T'A'R, objects from different times can intereact.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 15:09:50
subject: <b>This has already been posted...</b>
body:
<br />see:<br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=65&amp;Category=OlverGaidal<br /><br />oh, and I disagree <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />//i\\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 19:02:49
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Why all the negativity?  Gena Sedai or whatever you call yourself,  if you have problems with your love life spend some time on the Life mates website.  O - bot thanks for your insight.  I found your comments very very very insightful.  <br /><br />       Normally I'd say we know.  After reading the previous comments I will say this time that the author and I ( not we! ) know that Thom generally doesn't comment on things unless he knows them to be true.  I remember the scene in Eotw the author is referring to.  For all those who skimmed through the series, RJ has built on this already.  i.e.  Forsaken reborn.  Stealing bodies ( Osangar and Arangar).<br /><br />Thanks to the author for this little added piece of information.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 19:04:50
subject: <b>I disagree....</b>
body:
....because i can&#180;t stand the little brat!!! *shouts bad words at Olver*  .... anyway...the wheel weaves strange patterns <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 19:33:37
subject: <b>Pretty good</b>
body:
I like that theory, in general. I've already been thinking he was (as have many others, I'm sure), but that's another bit to add to the support.<br /><br />As for Birgitte making it seem like Gaidal is a dolt when she's not around...well...don't ALL females say and think that about men in this series?  It's like the biggest cliche/bad stereotype. <br /><br />This also adds another interesting element:  Cyndane was spun out (or whatever) -- into an adult body.  Gaidal and Birgitte get reborn (as does the Dragon).  Moiraine also could already be around in an adult body.  Someone had a nice point about people coming back into bodies of the soul-sucked. <br /><br />Hmm...I wonder if Moiraine qualifies as a Hero of the Horn? Of course, does ANY Aes Sedai? and why not?


created: 2002-04-11 18:40:27
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
I also think that Moraine is free.  Armed and dangerous.  Moraine is the type that might not jump right in if she has returned.  Take time behind the scenes to decide where she will have the greatest effect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 07:10:59
subject: <b>How tired am I of dumbass theories?</b>
body:
Okay, the one thing that rubbed me the wrong way about this ...uh-hmm... theory,  is that they said Gaidal chose Olver so he could &quot;catch up&quot; to Birgitte,  since she was ripped away... they are forgetting one minor detail... Gaidal has already been reborn!!!! He doesn't know that Birgitte was ripped away... end of story... Did I mention the Theory Post Admins are really lacking in their filtering of theories,  I mean COME ON!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-12 11:37:17
subject: <b>I agree with Child of the Light..</b>
body:
Gaidal was gone.  So either the Wheel predicted the future and spun him out early so he could suffer and then let his long-time lover mother him for 10 years or so until he's old enough to resume their former relationship(icky!), or this is hogwash!<br /><br />Also, regarding Thom's comment, we have already seen the dead take living bodies.  Luc/Isam?  How can two personalities exist in one body?  They can't (well, maybe for male channellers, but let's stay on course, shall we?)  Isam (dead guy) steals body of Luc (live guy).  Looks like Luc, acts like Isam.  Not to mention cool other superpowers, like the ability to make Faile stammer like a schoolgirl, and slay couples in their bed without a single sound.  Go, Isam!!


created: 2002-04-12 12:04:20
subject: <b>Of course Olver is Cain</b>
body:
<br />At least once, and I seem to remember it more than once, we hear that characters must be careful in TAR because &quot;time moves differently there.&quot;  Well, ok then, Cain got tossed back out by the Wheel to be Olver, but in TAR, to Birgette, it seemed he was gone a short time.  &quot;Time moving differently&quot; could just as easily infer moving about in time as it does time moving faster or slower than what one believes.  Jordan has also shown a penchant for proving possible &quot;things which can't be done,&quot; for instance Nynaeve healing stilling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Crabuki<br /><br />Father of Emmaline Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Husband to Jennlene the Queenlene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Making pretty babies since August 2001 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 21:05:04
subject: <b>Mordeth</b>
body:
Thom made that comment about 2 pages before Mordeth tried to take Mat/Rand/Perrin body. I think RJ was giving us a prelude to the Fain/Mordeth thing


created: 2002-04-15 00:41:33
subject: <b>Age Problems with Olver</b>
body:
The passage of time is different in Tel'aran'rhiod then in the real world.  It has been said many times that you could spend a couple minutes in Tel'aran'rhiod and when you leave it is morning or the opposite.  Because of this it is possible Cain was reborn in Olver how ever many years before in the real world and only a short time has passed in Tel'aran'rhiod.  A second comment Brigette has said that Cain is always older then her when they are spun so if Birgette was not ripped out she would have been reborn in a couple years anyway.


created: 2002-04-21 13:59:59
subject: <b>okay, you guys need to read more carefully.</b>
body:
the cain 'catching up' by being olver was not a part of the theory. it was a comment from the stone dog guy.


created: 2002-04-24 21:28:09
subject: <b>Not a chance......well, not much one anyway</b>
body:
The statement was made by Thom. However, it is one that has been raised before.<br /><br />To summarise:<br /><br />We saw Gaidal Cain several times in the books in T'AR. He had not yet been spun out. And, while time does flow at a different rate in T'AR, it has never shown any sign of going backwards -it slows down, and pseeds up but it always moves forwards.  Doing otherwise brings in the trouble of time travel. So, Gaidal cannot have been born as Olver.<br /><br />Could he ahve taken him over? More difficult to completely eliminate this possibility. However, we are told that the heros are spun out to be born. Furthermore, the context in which Thom relates the tales of the dead possessing the bodies of the living tells us thta this is regarded as an evil act. Would this, therefore, be the kind of thing a Hero of the Horn would do?<br /><br />Countering the accusation that Birgette likes Olver and so he must be Cain is easy - at best, he reminds her of him and more likely, is that his typical charm works on all women - at least for now. <br /><br />And what about Min's viewing showing her with someoen younger? Irrelevant because those visions also showed her with someone older than she was and yet the two - the younger person and the older person - were the same. The vision refers to Birgette and her love and her connection to GC and not Olver. Its interesting to note that I can't recall Min having a viewing of Olver - though eprhaps thats from a lack of opportunity.<br /><br />So - is GC Olver? No, he isn't.<br />Has he been spun out?<br /><br />Yes, he has -but he's a babe in arms, if that. He will be a hero, but in the new age.<br /><br />EJL<br />


created: 2002-06-01 10:20:24
subject: <b>One Question</b>
body:
Okay, now, I know I can be really really really wrong with this because it has been forever and a day since I read the books... but, if the Heros recognize Rand as being who he is... and people made comments on other posts about how they would recognize Mat and Perrin if those two also were from the Horn... wouldn't Bridgette have said something, hinted at it at least to her Elayne even, that Olver is Cain? I personally believe that the kid probebly is Cain, who am I to say how Jordan does the time on his T'A'R. He has been known to throw us a few loops in the past after all.


created: 2002-06-24 13:47:44
subject: <b>something new to me</b>
body:
I agree with the possibility of olver being gaidal cain.<br />This could explain several personality traits of olver<br />(such as his intense interest in riselles busom)<br /><br />Also Mat states several times in the series that Olver will never be handsome, Rj also has numerous characters mention birgittes terrible taste in men<br /><br />anyway that just occurred to me so peace


created: 2002-07-04 14:12:33
subject: <b>Min's Viewing</b>
body:
I noticed something in my re-reading of Winter's Heart. It tends to lend some support to the Olver/Gaidal Cain argument. Min has a viewing on page 337 that lets her know that Birgitte is really the Birgitte of legends. She sees Birgitte having more adventures than one person possibly could in one lifetime. One of those adventures is with a much younger and ugly man. Olver is ugly and much younger.


created: 2002-07-17 01:40:04
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
The books do say Birgitte has a certain affinity for Olver that she can't quite explain, a closeness. And in the dream world time is all screwed up anyway, and when Olver was introduces Gaidal Cain was nowhere to be found. Birgitte even said the Pattern had wieved him out of T'A'R.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 17:03:18
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
Maybe he is Cain, but that obviously isn't his main purpose in the series.  His purpose (in my informed opinion) is to remind Mat of how to defeat the 'Finns.  He will either beat Snakes and Foxes, Mat will hear him saying the poem thing at the beginning, or he will find out that the only way to beat it is to cheat (thereby reminding Mat that that is the only way to beat the 'Finns).<br /><br />So is he Cain?  It doesn't matter.


created: 2002-08-04 23:13:38
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I believe that Olver is Gaidal Cain.  I also agree that he took the body of Olver.  <br />1. I believe that Gaidal wanted to catch up. <br />2. Why in this world after the Shaido totally killed everyone would they leave a little boy alive.(Maybe because they felt sorry he was so ugly)<br />3. Look at all the skills he is learning from eveyone.<br />   A.Vanin with horses<br />   B.Beslan with the sword<br />   C.Mat plans on teaching the bow and the staff<br /><br />And this is only a few of the things that he is learning.  I believe that Olver is Gaidal Cain!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 17:50:17
subject: <b>Yes and..</b>
body:
Yes i have always had this suspicion.<br /><br />1. Birgette while in the dream world said time passed different there so the age thing is not a problem.<br /><br />2.Birgette likes ugly men and it is mentioned alot that Olver &quot;will never be pretty.&quot;<br /><br />3. I think Olver has to have a more important part then just a boy mat found.<br /><br />4. Mat's luck could have caused him to find Olver the Legend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 18:12:12
subject: <b>Ok, so RJ pretty much proved that GC is Olver.</b>
body:
Hate to rehash this seemingly dead thread...<br />For those that have forked out for the 'Glimmer' ebook (like me), you get a tasty RJ interview in the mix. In the interview, he's asked about ta'averen and says this,<br />&quot;For another thing, no one is born ta'averen. Mat, Perrin, and Rand only became ta'averen just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta'averen according to the needs of the Wheel. *Like the heroes linked to the Wheel,who are spun out as needed to try and keep the weaving of the Pattern straight*, a man or woman becomes ta'averen because the Wheel has &quot;decided&quot; to use them as an influence on the Pattern.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 10:17:30
subject: <b>Ok, so RJ pretty much proved that GC is Olver.</b>
body:
SO what I forgot to add as a concluding statement was that RJ has shown that you are not born a Hero, you become a Hero as the Wheel needs you. So, Olver was born an ugly kid, and recently (or sometime soon) will become Gaidal Cain reborn. <br /><br />And then Birgitte can boink a minor like a lonely NH school teacher.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 00:12:14
subject: <b>When does the soul enter the body?</b>
body:
Everyone here has been assuming that the soul enters the body upon conception, yeah? Why not at birth, or even after birth? It could be that they are just mindless brats for a few years until a soul enters them, so if this is the case than GC when he was 'reborn' he could have gone straight into a child (making kids empty vessels waiting for a soul to pick them). Then GC wouldn't have had to kick out some poor unfortunate when he took over.


created: 2002-10-11 04:30:05
subject: <b>And Moghedien???</b>
body:
I've read all of your comments, and I haven't seen the possibility that Olver is Gaidal Cain but not Gaidal Cain reborn. The explanation is Moghedien. In FoH, Birgitte is changed as a baby during the &quot;battle&quot; between Moghedien and Nyneave. Why Robert Jordan wrote this? Why Moghedien didn't change Birgitte as a horse or an insect? Moggy told Nyneave she could make changes permanant, didn't she? She told Birgitte she will suffer distant from her precious Gaidal Cian. This what I think: Moggy found Gaidal Cain, she make him a child and as Birgitte, she ripped him away from T'a'R. This could explain the temporary problem. Moreover, Olver is important 'cause he is the only character as a child, and I don't think RJ said Olver is ugly many times just for pleasure. And think Olver is following <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> who is the Hornsounder.<br />So, Olver is Gaidal Cain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 21:58:54
subject: <b>its TRUE</b>
body:
well, all that is true but you left out a good fact to support your evidence: one of the girls (avienda, egwene, ect) said that Cain was ugly and mat has said olver is ugly so...


created: 2003-01-23 00:01:57
subject: <b>for adrian...and everyone else</b>
body:
You said that it was possible for the soul to enter the body sometime after birth.  Well the Chruch has had two distinct believes on where the soul comes from, and when.  So if the Patter takes the likeness of God for Wot, then the following is possible.  The Eastern church has believed for the most part that the soul is a creation of God and given to the infint some time between conseption and birth.  The western chruch has believed predominantly that the soul is inhareted from the parents.  So in wot it could be possible to take the eastern belief and have the kid souless for some time after birth.  The may be distinct to heros of the horn, being that their souls would differ from their parents, hence the inhareted soul would not work for them.  So if the patern is soverign as the belief of orthodox christianity is, then the pattern would have known of the need for a shell to be created for Cain, when Mog riped brigitte out of TAR.  <br /><br />All this so say that I believe that it is possible for Olver to be Cain, but not probuble.


created: 2003-01-23 00:52:24
subject: <b>Gaidai Cain wasn't trying to 'catch up'</b>
body:
I skimmed though the comments....so I may be repeating someone else here, without realizing it. <br /><br />&quot;I think that the reason he took a living body is to try to catch up to Birgitte and fix the temporal discontinuity.&quot;<br /><br />I know this was not part of the theory posted...but I had to comment on it.  Birgitte believed that Gaidai Cain was spun out *before* Mog. kicked her into the real world.  Unless Gaidai Cain, died, and was spun out again....he would not have known he had some catching up to do with Birgitte.<br /><br />Sar.<br /><br />


created: 2003-02-22 12:38:18
subject: <b>A peculiarity in Olver's descriptions.</b>
body:
I was perusing the Encyclopedia WOT site and noticed an oddity about Olver's descriptions.<br /><br />The first mention of Olver's age is &quot;he claimed to be nine but looked more like six.&quot;<br /><br />The next mention of Olver's age is 71 days later, according to the &quot;Tellings of the Wheel&quot; chronology website, where he's described as looking like about ten.<br /><br />Perhaps the Pattern of the Ages has accelerated Olver's aging so he's old enough to participate in T'G when it arrives.  Since many of the soldiers and levies are 16 to 18, perhaps Olver will age another 8 years in the next 140 days?<br /><br />Perhaps Mat's observation that regular meals are the reason Olver has filled out and &quot;looks his age&quot; in WH is the correct answer to the anomaly in the descriptions, so they don't mean anything.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 11:23:16
subject: <b>mmm</b>
body:
except, StoneDogAiel, that Gaidal Cain was &quot;reborn&quot; before Birgitte got snapped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 23:02:02
subject: <b>Well...many possiblities.....</b>
body:
IMHO, I think Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn....<br /><br />Yes, Time flows differently in t'a'r, and who knows, it could even implant things already woven into the patteren? Who knows much aboud Heroes being reborn at all? Or t'a'r at that? So people can only have opinions...Yes, it said heroes are spun out into the patteren, but did it SPECIFICALLY imply that them being born was the only way? Who is to know that Brigitte wasn't supposed to be ripped out by Moghedian. I havent thought to GREATLY on the subject, but I have given it some thought. And imho, olver is gaidal cain...but, hopefully, he is, another thing. He is growing up around soldiers, what better way to learn the sword? Who knows, he may even train with rand? become a blademaster? /shrug, my 2cp....


created: 2003-08-30 13:53:28
subject: <b>um...no</b>
body:
ok, umm ...lets see whwere have i seen this before. oh that right, on the blackboard. now (sarcastically) lets see if i can remenber what a response said. ah yes. ROBERT JORDAN SAID THAT HE WAS NOT GAIDAL CAIN (SEE BLACKBOARD)<br /><br />aside from this i can see your point of how he might be him and i agree with what was said about thom but...Robert Jordan is the one who writes the books!!!


created: 2004-05-03 18:20:46
subject: <b>To coroborate above post..</b>
body:
Taken from http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.5_gaidal.html:<br /><br />&quot;Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?<br />RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. &quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 10:08:44
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
As Bob says RJ said: The timing is wrong. I had also posted a theory saying that. It's  http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1121&amp;Category=OlverGaidal if you'd like to take a look. Just added some new input.<br /><br />Anyway, that thing about the dead taking a living body, that's gotta be a practice OF THE DARK. Would servants of the light really hijack someone else's soul?


created: 2005-04-04 00:35:25
subject: <b>Who cares?</b>
body:
Really who cares? Olver is an annoying character and hopefully his only purpose is to help Mat with the Finn.<br /><br />Even if he is Gaidal, then he's totally useless. We're only two books away from Tarmon Gaidan, and unless we are expecting those two books to have 6-8 years of story in them, Olver is only gonna be at most 10 or 12 when Armageddon comes. So what good is he? <br />I doubt Olver is Gaidal but if he is, he'll be a hero for the fourth age, and will be totally irrelevant to the story. <br />And time flows differently in TAR - it doesn't flow backwards!!! It's all like relativity. Time can move faster or slower, but it aint gonna go backwards. All the theory's on this topic are desperately glueing half truths and wannabe ideas together to justify someones silly belief.<br />Has anyone ever thought that the reason RJ keeps saying Olver is ugly...is cause he IS ugly? Duh!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 14:17:35
subject: <b>okay.</b>
body:
Why would a hero of the horn take a boy's life for his own?<br /><br />It's worse than unethical - that's my problem with this entire idea. There's no way in hell Birgitte would be so in love with a man who would take a ten year old boy's life. That's just disgusting, and even a little horrifying.<br /><br />Somehow, the very idea makes me think of a sick, perverted thirty year old man who's hounding after a little girl and would do anything to get near her. Ew.


created: 2005-08-16 00:01:39
subject: <b>Fires of heaven</b>
body:
In TFoH Briggite (sp) tells Nynaeve that time in the unseen world was different couldn't gaidal cain have been spun out into the past of the real world but still be in the unseen world cuz time is different just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-15 20:44:20
subject: <b>problem</b>
body:
I thought this way too and it was hard to diny but the problem is, when I did the math, that when Gaidal Cain was born again Olver would have been either 2 or 3.


created: 2002-04-10 20:32:19
subject: <b>Interesting observations</b>
body:
However,<br /><br />I think that there just isn't enough proof here to convict Talaan just yet.  Talaan might not have told the Aes Sedai because she was afraid, or because she simply didn't like Aviendha. Or perhaps she didn't have time to tell them before Avi started unweaving.   <br /><br />As for incompetency- I think we find plenty of incompetency on both sides of the gameboard- Just look at some of the biggest bunglers so far:  Berelain in avoiding her Cairhienen duties, Elaida and the White tower, Rand and his 2nd useless seige on the Seanchan (they just came right back anyway), Gawyn for taking himself back to the white tower when he knew that Elaida wanted him dead, Birgitte for calling herself Birgitte when she didn't want people to know that she was Birgitte.  The list goes on.<br /><br />However, there is an interesting pattern that is happening around Nynaeve.  Not only is Talaan around Nynaeve, but Alivia is also there.  I definitely think that you are on to something in expecting future friction between these women.  It would make for interesting plot-line if Talaan really was black.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 21:46:21
subject: <b>beautiful...</b>
body:
and a genius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />i like it, makes sense even if the evidence isn't quite solid, <br /><br />the incompetance mentioned in the above post didnt have anything to do with the bad guys, it was just the typical WOT good guys being blind, it makes more sense that she was just outright ignoring nyneave, (givin i would if i was talaan to because lets face it, nyneave is a bi<i></i>tch)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 23:36:46
subject: <b>Hmm....</b>
body:
Me likes, I didn't really think too much of it when I read all the scenes w/ N and Zaida and stuff in it. I just figured that they didn't get along very well (N doesn't get along very well w/ anyone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ). Perhaps I need to re read that book again<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> *yippie*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 13:27:35
subject: <b>Ummmm</b>
body:
It was not Talaan that was supposed to warn everybody about the danger.  It was someone with a higher rank.  I can't remember exactly who right now, but it was NOT Talaan.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 16:15:42
subject: <b>Ahhh</b>
body:
I was just reading through the part with the warning and it was KURIN not TALAAN that was given the warning.  And most likely the reason that Talaan wants to go with Nynaeve is because she is pushed alot harder than the others, simply because of her heritage.  She just wants to get as far away as possible from the Sea Folk.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 16:17:57
subject: <b>good job, but...</b>
body:
Maybe you're right. Maybe Talaan is a Darkfriend, after all, there must be some among the Windfinders.<br /><br />But I don't think the evidence you give is valid. I don't think Talaan is the one Aviendha spoke to. When she spoke to the woman passing through the gateway she says: &quot;She caught one of the Atha'an Miere by a red SILK sleeve.&quot; [PoD, p.65] Elayne, watching the line of Sea Folk, thinks: &quot;Talaan, so meek in her red LINEN blouse&quot; [p.70].<br /><br />A point for you would be that the one whom Avi speaks to &quot;surprisingly waited for Aviendha to release her before making her hesitant way through the gateway&quot; [p.66] and Talaan, as we well know, is low in rank. On the other hand, all the Atha'an Miere are nervous around &quot;savage Aiel&quot;.<br /><br />The thing is, that the Windfinders go through by rank, &quot;[Talaan] scurried at the very tail&quot; [p.69] and Avi thinks: &quot;half the Sea Folk were gone&quot; [p.65] when she decides to send a message. We hear Elayne's thoughts when Talaan and Metarra &quot;scurry through&quot;, she doesn't mention Avi stopping them.<br /><br />I think, rather, that it was Kurin. Avi mentions that the woman has a stony black stare, and so, according to Elayne, does Kurin. And Adeleas counsels the girls to &quot;put the fear of the Light into [the Atha'an Miere]&quot; [p.8<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />. So Avi can vent her anger on the woman who didn't pass her message. The next thing we see is: &quot;Aviendha riding next to Kurin&quot; [p.90].<br /><br />All the same, I think you may be right about Talaan being a Darkfriend. But she beat Nynaeve quite competently, so she could be an efficient Darkfriend <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 16:21:33
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
I see someone else noticed too while I was writing that. Sorry!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 18:35:40
subject: <b>Your right!</b>
body:
about incompetence,  and not just in the books.  We can see incompetence on this sight as well can't we?<br /><br />KURIN NOT TALAAN.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 21:53:33
subject: <b>I don't think so, at least not from the evidence you've gathered</b>
body:
One, which has already been mentioned, Talaan was not the one that Avi sent the message through with.  <br /><br />Second, Avi didn't see Moridin, &quot;Something made her look higher, to the domes and towers.  Narrow walks ringed some of those slim spires, and on one, very high, was a black shape haloed by a sharp nimbus from the sun behind.  A man.&quot;  This is most likely the gholam, which from it's POV later on we know it watched the departure as well, &quot;The man who had wounded him was not with them; it had made sure of that before leaving the high vantage place.&quot;<br /><br />Third, you only have one real example of incompetence for possibly leading to the Dark side, that being Weiramon, Danelle was completely competent, she meant to hire too many men in order to use them in part of the Tower coup.  Also the only real evidence of Weiramon being a DF is that he was talking to Rochaid(or one of the DF Asha'man), which still isn't entirely evidence of being a DF.  While I'd be willing to admit that Weiramon is most likely a DF, just because one is incompetent doesn't mean all are, any statistics class would teach you that.<br /><br />Fourth, Talaan's want to go to the White Tower to train to be Aes Sedai makes sense in light of what she would have to go through to make any rank with the Seanchan.  Whereas, if she is aware of the Power related system used in the Tower she would most likely be listened to by anyone.  Of course this adds a little to your DF theory, as most of them do it for the power.  <br /><br />Fifth, unless you're right about Zaida, Talaan would have had no say in whether she came with the group or not, since she is so low in rank.  <br /><br />Sixth, it's unlikely that anyone saw Moridin in the window, since he was behind a &quot;screen of white wrought iron.&quot;<br /><br />So I'd say it's highly unlikely that Talaan is a DF, and I didn't see any evidence for Zaida being a DF.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 23:54:02
subject: <b>Wow, you LOVE this windfinders crap, eh?</b>
body:
LOL @ Columbo.<br /><br />Jeez man, this is... kinda boring, isn't it? I think I'll go and read some old theories that can capture a guy's intrest.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 17:58:34
subject: <b>I humbly apologize</b>
body:
for this mistake.  You see, I put together my ideas from a bunch of other theories, and I guess this got all confused in the mix.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 19:40:12
subject: <b>The man at the window</b>
body:
The man at the window was Moridin (from his pov we see Avi that unweave the gateway). The Gholam came later in the same room. (moridin killed a servant madic (?) and then the gholam drink body's fresh blood)


created: 2003-05-09 17:44:36
subject: <b>Zaida very possibly</b>
body:
I think Talaan is innocent, but Zaida...<br /><br />I think Tarmon Gai&#8217;don will be fought at many different sites simultaneously. And one way to get the Trollocs into place is through the &#8220;1 square mile&#8221; of Atha&#8217;an Miere land at every port Rand controls (Tear, Illian, Cairhien) and now Caemlyn.  This strategy to avoid long marches is similar to how the Trollocs were brought into Tear in grain barges and into the Two Rivers through the Waygate (which are now being guarded).<br /><br />I don&#8217;t particularly think Harine (who made the Cairhien bargain) is a Darkfriend, but the idea may have been suggested to her by someone. And I do have suspicions about Zaida, who made the same bargain with Elaine. For one thing, it seems too coincidental that they both thought up the same identical bargaining chip. Also, during the bargaining [CoT Ch. 12 &#8220;A Bargain, pp. 316-319], Elayne notes Zaida has &#8220;a smile of relief rather than triumph,&#8221; and that she thinks Zaida came into the meeting knowing how it would turn out.<br /><br />Elayne interprets all of Zaida&#8217;s reactions as a political move towards becoming Mistress of Ships, but we have often seen Jordan&#8217;s characters misinterpret other characters&#8217; motivations. If Zaida is a Darkfriend, her expressions have a much different interpretation.<br /><br />By the way, we basically KNOW Weiramon is a darkfriend, after an overheard conversation between him and Gedwyn in PoD (Ch. 24, A Time for Iron, p.473).<br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-01-12 23:48:35
subject: <b>nope...</b>
body:
not gonna beat the whole apprentice thing on the head.<br /><br />Talaan, not a darkfriend. Nothing that could point that way. When she shielded Nynavae, she was following orders.<br /><br />Zaida...don't think we really know enough about her to say.<br /><br />I will say though, that not everybody is a darkfriend, and I for one am getting tired of this nail getting trashed.


created: 2007-06-18 21:09:47
subject: <b>a bit thin...</b>
body:
All the arguments in this theory are really thin. Bad memory does not equal df. Random fan liking the idea does not equal df.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 21:34:24
subject: <b>I'm gonna have to say no</b>
body:
They're not gonna care that Perrin is a blacksmith, to them he's just another wetlander.  Also since it's unlikely that he has any idea about the fact that blacksmiths are untouchable it seems unlikely that he'd attept it.  Also given the fact that the Shaido Wise Ones have engaged in battle it seems unlikely that the concept of Wise Ones being safe any longer holds true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 21:46:44
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
Basically, my points were already noted in the 1st response, but to sum it all up...<br /><br />The Shaido (and Sevanna in particular) really don't seem to care one whit about traditional Aiel values and practices anymore, so why would they care if he's a blacksmith?<br /><br />Narg will be reborn!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 21:54:31
subject: <b>Hmm...i don't know about htis one</b>
body:
I'm not completely sure about this theory. Personally for 2 or 3 reasons. First off, I don't think the Shaido really care much for the old traditions as much as they used to. They seem more on the idea that they will follow the rules when it is convenient to them (ex: Taking wetlanders prisoners and having the wise ones fight). Second, as cautious as Perrin is, and how much he thinks, I believe he knows that the Shaido will only give up thier prisoners with a huge battle, especially since they know that Perrin is the husband, and that Faile is a niece to a queen, or soemthign alongs those lines. Well, thats about all my reasoning powers at this time<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 23:29:35
subject: <b>everyone has hit all the same points...</b>
body:
basically, why would the Shaido care about one more tradition broken?  After Wise Ones fighting and killing with the One Power, taking anyone gai'shain, keeping them permanently, not just a year and a day, taking more than the fifth from conquered areas, and so on, what difference would taking a blacksmith make?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 00:56:41
subject: <b>Have to agree with above comments, but....</b>
body:
I do agree with the above comments that the Shaido are not likely to preserve one custom above others, but this would just be such a cool thing to happen, and would give a good reason for the blacksmith thing being mentioned.<br />(What's with the Aiel and smiths, anyway? Blacksmiths are exempt, silversmiths get to to the one day for you, one for me bit. The other exemptions make sense, as children can't work, WOs are needed to have connexions, and pregnant women/women with young children have to look after their kids. But smiths?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 02:51:13
subject: <b>Off them please RJ!</b>
body:
Ok, i know a couple of people will support me on this.  I am hoping that Perrin will try the untouchable blacksmith routine and get offed, along with his annoying wife Faile.(Dodges vegitables and sharp objects thrown by &quot;annoying people in the WOT&quot; lovers). That would make me a very happy WOTer.  Maybe some admin could drop the hint to RJ in the next interview...??<br /><br />Guaire Amalason<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Synicism always<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Lord of Durham


created: 2002-04-12 07:17:54
subject: <b>Guaire.. think a moment.</b>
body:
Okay,  Faile should be killed,  but why Perrin?  The only reason Perrin is annoying is because of Faile.  So,  what would be really cool is if Faile got killed and Perrin just went &quot;Mad Max&quot;  with his axe for a little while....  that would be cooler.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-12 08:19:13
subject: <b>Beyond ThunderDome</b>
body:
Well, yeah, I'd have to agree....seeing a wacked out Perrin would be quite nice.  Im getting a bit sick and tired of his whining...&quot;Im just a blacksmith&quot;  <br />BULLCRAP!!!  you are a big dude, with a big axe....go bonk some heads!!<br />IMHO, they are gonna not kill Faille (sorry, i kinda like her, but she needs to go berserk as well), instead, they are gonna try to escape at the same time Perrin comes along....and WHAM!! POW!!! SMACK!!! lots of 70's style kung-fu and general butt kicking...hopefully RJ will have a nice sound track that we can listen to while we read....dont you think that would be a nice idea?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 09:55:41
subject: <b>I (for one) like it!</b>
body:
Although, I think that it would be more likely that Perrin is taken gai'shain, then the other WO's find out he's a blacksmith.  They then use that fact to overthrow Sevanna by showing that she has gone way too far with the whole throwing out customs thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 10:18:45
subject: <b>taken Gai Shain</b>
body:
I'm fairly syre that somewhere it says that Blacksmiths never go to battle. Might this be a reason for them not being taken Gai Shain.<br /><br />I think that the blacksmiths among the Shaido might not be too happy about a blacksmith being taken prisoner.


created: 2002-04-12 11:03:29
subject: <b>*stands alone in the middle of the oppinions*</b>
body:
While I agree with everyone about the Shaido not really giving much of a crap if Perrin's a Blacksmith or not, doesn't it seem really coincidental about how Perrin always goes on about being just a blacksmith, and then, in WH, that little tidbit gets thrown in? Somehow, I don't think RJ put that there for filler. I doubt it will end simply, but I'll bet our wolf-pal's former profession is gonna play some role in finding and saving(Grumbles) his annoying birdwife.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 11:46:13
subject: <b>I Agree It Will Have An Impact</b>
body:
I think that Perrin's status as blacksmith does have importance.  After all, not ALL the Shaido are Darkfriends. Sevanna has twisted Aiel tradition but she's trying to make the Shaido believe that she is following their &quot;true&quot; traditions.  There are some things, especially surrounding the Car'a'carn, that most Aiel don't seem to understand very well, and she's capitalized on that due to her position as Wise One.  There are other things a lot of them refuse to believe, and she's managed to use that to her advantage, too.  However, the blacksmith tradition is one of those things that they all seem to know and understand.  If Sevanna managed to take Perrin prisoner and it came out that he was a blacksmith, it would probably lead to a revolt against Sevanna at the least.<br /><br />I have a feeling we'll be finding out how it ends up in November, assuming the book is long enough for something to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 12:33:14
subject: <b>Blacksmith</b>
body:
Does Perrin have to know about the blacksmith thing, he has Aiel with him who know it, they are quite capable of saying it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 12:55:12
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
it is a point I hadn't really thought about. And he has Gaul with him, who would know about Aiel custom, since he IS Aiel.<br /><br />Sevanna has been doing her bad deeds out of view from most of her supporters. She had a Wise One killed to entice the other Wise Ones to follow her. But if everyone knew that Perrin was a blacksmith, it would be harder for her to to take him gai'shain.<br /><br />Even so, that does not mean he can walk in and take Faile. It just means he cannot be taken prisoner.<br /><br />On another point, I assumed blacksmiths were too valuable to be allowed to be taken in battle. Without tools to cultivate, entire clans could face starvtion in the Waste. Thats why I kinda thought they were untouchable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 22:42:14
subject: <b>Hammer</b>
body:
Maybe this is why Perrin is what the hammer means that Perrin is carrying around with his axe. He has to realize that both parts of his life his axe and his hammer are important and further use the hammer being the building and the axe being the destroyer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 08:31:46
subject: <b>no! nO! NO!</b>
body:
Perrin is a Wetlander and he is not working in the smith so there goes your theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 10:56:21
subject: <b>Ji et toh</b>
body:
Would the Shaido really care about custom or not?? The good Aiel don't apply the same rules to wetlanders as they do themselves because the wetlanders don't follow ji et toh. It has been mentioned loads of times that Aiel won't take WL's gaishan because they don't follow the same honour path. So the Shaido that want to break custom would kill him anyway, and the ones that don't want to break custom will kill him anyway because he doesn't follow Ji et Toh, so it doesn't matter.


created: 2002-04-14 17:59:02
subject: <b>well, blacksmith's are important</b>
body:
the reason why aiel don't want to harm blacksmiths is because they are important for every community. it's a sort of a code of conduct similar to today's rule of not killing civilians. it's just a bad thing to do.<br /><br />i gotta give the thumbs down because of 2 reasons. <br /><br />1&gt; the same reason everyone above me said, i don't think the shaido care too much about the old stuff.<br /><br />2&gt; even if they decided not to harm perrin because he's a blacksmith, that doesn't mean they have to harm him to stop him from walking in and doing anything he wants. i can't just walk into a store and take anything i want just because the store owner doesn't want to hurt me.


created: 2002-04-14 23:51:43
subject: <b>About the Aiel and Blacksmiths...</b>
body:
Everyone knocks this theory because of several reasons and, while I think the fact that Perrin is a wetlander may or will neglect his blacksmith status, the idea that the Aiel have thrown away all of the old ways is absurd.<br /><br />Notice that Sevannah has been killing or arranging the deaths of all of the Wise Ones and people of authority who won't change or accept her changes.  The Shaido aren't throwing away tradition: Sevannah and the Wise Ones are, and their example is what keeps the Shaido together, along with the refusal to believe that Rand is the car'a'carn.  <br /><br />The Shaido, much like the rest of the Aiel, put great store in the opinions of their chiefs and their Wise Ones: where a Wise One or a clan chief points, the go, for the most part.  There is nothing inherently evil about the Shaido: Sevannah and some of the other Wise Ones, however, may be another story.<br /><br />What does all of this mean and where's the proof?  Look in A Crown of Swords, the chapter near the end of the book in which Sammael gives Sevannah and the Shaido the &quot;traveling boxes.&quot;  (I'm sorry that I don't have the book with me, but trust me, it's there.  I read it today, right after reading this theory)  There are several points of view in the chapter, and they're all interesting. <br /><br />In Sevannah's POV, she thinks mostly about changing the traditions of the Shaido to suit her own purposes, and tries to figure out ways in which to make them accept her &quot;new&quot; traditions.<br /><br />In Galina's, we see that the way the Shaido treat da'tsang is quite similar to the way the other Aiel treated da'tsang in The Fires of Heaven (remember the pretty darkfriend who &quot;steals&quot; Maiden's jewelery?)  <br /><br />In Sammael, he's just all evil and stuff.<br /><br />In one of the last, however, there is a warrior of the Shaido who wants to be made a chief.  He leads the troops through one of the portals.  When he learns of the coming Aiel (Rand's Aiel), he shouts at a nearby man to alert the spears, and immediately apologizes for it.  He goes on about the necessity of it under the circumstances.  The reason he is so upset is because of the way he addressed a blacksmith.  <br /><br />So, the idea that the Shaido are throwing away ALL traditions is obviously ridiculous.  In one chapter in one of the recent books, we have concrete proof that the Shaido themselves are not throwing away all traditions.  Sevannah is.  <br /><br />If Perrin comes to the camp AS a blacksmith- as Sulin and Gaul would both advise him to do- it is conceivable that a threat to him might- and that's a big might- cause a rift or riot in the Shaido, or at least set the stage for problems.  <br /><br />And another thing: I think you'll find that the Shaido are not aware that Sevannah's gai'shain will never put off the white.  Also, most if not all of the wetlanders taken gai'shain are tree-killers.  Taking a non-treekiller blacksmith might be the catalyst for a rebellion, or merely foment discord among the Shaido.<br /><br />I know that this is a big might, but it's the kind of thing Jordan likes to throw at us.  <br />


created: 2002-04-18 23:49:58
subject: <b></b>
body:
<b>lessthanpleased</b> - You're not exactly right.<br />Maeric, sept chief of the Moshaine Shaido:- <i>There was no time for wasting words, Maeric knew. &quot;Hamal!&quot; he shouted. No time for proper courtesy to a blacksmith, either.</i><br /><br />But that's still a valid point. Blacksmiths <i>can</i> be treated like normal warriors, you're just not <i>supposed</i> to. Nor is there anything stopping Sevanna saying, &quot;Welcome to the Jumai Shaido, Perrin blacksmith. May your hammer always ring true. [waffle waffle] Just come this way into our tent which is heavily guarded night and day.&quot;<br /><br />I disagree with the theory - Perrin won't be allowed to just waltz into a camp of 100,000+ people are waltz back outunnoticed with 5 valuable prisoners.<br /><br /><br />The reason blacksmiths enjoy some sanctity is probably because there are so few of them. Maeric calls a name. Not &quot;Blacksmith!&quot; but &quot;Hamal!&quot;, suggesting there's probably only one smith for the whole sept (thousands of people).<br /><br />An explanation of the silversmith thing could be so that the person's skills don't go out of practise, seeing as how they're <i>gai'shain</i> for a whole year. And, you get a good source of nice silverware. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 21:00:44
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
...and actually think it's something which fits with the rest of the series, tying in little details mentioned books ago to play a major part in the story.<br /><br />However, there are faint flaws:<br /><br />1) The Shaido wouldn't know that Perrin was a blacksmith, unless he told them, which they would likely not give him a chance to do.<br /><br />2) He is only a wetlander--nothing stops Sevanna from telling her clan he's lying and having them at least partially believe her.<br /><br />3) A blacksmith can't be taken gai'shain, but is there any law that they can't be killed in battle? If Perrin walks in shouting &quot;I'm a blacksmith!&quot; what's there to stop Sevanna and the other Wise Ones from simply striking him down on the spot?<br /><br />Of course, having said that...I still think the theory is something Jordan would do, and it would be an interesting plot development <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Peace<br />--Memnoch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Sedai<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 09:19:39
subject: <b>nice theory, but...</b>
body:
It would be a great idea, swell if Jordan did it, but too bad Perrin crossed the line and became a combatant.  He's a leader, a soldier, and a noble like it or lump it, he's fair game.  He ain't just going to stroll in and take back Faile  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-20 12:34:18
subject: <b>Wetlanders</b>
body:
Just a tought that everybody seems to forget... the main point here is Perrin getting Faile out of this mess... well, he is a blacksimith and he may be untouchable (or not), but Faile isn't, and anithing has never been said about blackSmiths's wifes, so it has to be another way.<br />I really like the one proposed where he is captured ('Wolf's are very easy to take', I think this was Chiad) and then is discovered what he is, this the begin of a revolt or something like it and he can escape with faile. What I'm unable to say is what will append with Faile aiel companions, because them, being aiel will never stop being Gaisan until the year.... any sugestions? or they will be lost for the rest of the books?


created: 2002-05-29 16:32:39
subject: <b>RE: Untouchable Blacksmiths</b>
body:
I agree wholeheartedly. I also was thinking along those lines.  Perrin says something in WH that also has me thinking... He' says that &quot;this blacksmith has picked up a spear&quot;  or something similar.  Maybe he will end Sevanna's life. I personally would rather see Sevanna completely humiliated.<br /><br />As for  Lauriana Sedai&quot; comment about the silversmith... I think that maybe a Gai&#8217;shain silversmith may be involved in making some sort of magical medallion or maybe new seals for the dark one's prison... hmmmmmmmmmm.  Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Nikikins~~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> &quot;It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got.&quot;  Sheryl Crow</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 10:03:16
subject: <b>Thank you all for your opinions</b>
body:
Thank you for all your replies/ideas and please remember this is  just a really good fantasy series.  Let's not get too serious about it.<br /><br />Let's also remember that Perrin is Taveren = &quot;Anything can happen&quot;.   <br />I think that he'll conveniently learn of his protected status in the Aiel culture as he weighs his options on the effects of a battle with his wife being a hostage.  <br /><br />Yes, I still think he will &quot;walk&quot; up to Sevannah and the WO's to remain a non-combatant.  (This guy will walk bare foot through broken crowns and rusty knives for his wife.) He will try to negotiate her release somehow.  Sevannah will see him as extremely good bait to lure Rand to her.  Therefore, he will be a prisoner or even possibly made Gai'Shain.  Once information leaks out of his being a wetlander blacksmith in white to Sevannah; it'll only enrage the common warriors. She'll try to minimize that he is &quot;only a wetlander&quot;.  Still, it cuts too close to who they are as a people.  This will be Therava's chance to oust Sevannah in short order.  The mutiny will be the best cover for him to get all of Faile's group out of the camp.<br /><br />This is all speculation, and the wife didn't help on this one entry. I see some of you enjoy ripping theories / guesses to shreds as fun. Go ahead and take your gloves off.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 18:09:25
subject: <b>maybe..</b>
body:
I dont think Perrin will be allowed to do that. He will probably be killed. However, if he is in taveren mode, he may actually be able to pull it off.<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-10 10:48:22
subject: <b>Taveren mode...huh?!</b>
body:
Can someone please explain to me when / if a Taveren mode can be turned off or on?  When is Perrin or Mat or Rand not in Taveren mode?  <br />So bubbles of evil haven't been occuring in the series for a while, and random acts of general wierdness aren't filler in the story line as often.  <br />For example, Mat's dice rolling in his head isn't voluntary.  When they are bothering him, he is only being <br />&quot;sensitive&quot; to what he has learned that the Wheel is spinning significant events around him again.<br />Also Novice Nicola sees the Taveren glow around our 3 friends as her particular talent.  Did she ever say that it was flickering or wavering?  No, she just stated what is.<br />I wrote this in a hurry please pardon the terse tone. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 02:04:00
subject: <b>This is all well and good, but....</b>
body:
You're forgetting one little thing: Robert Jordan is writing this so all the logic we throw at the Shaido's likilihood of abandoning yet another tradition simply does not apply. The Shaido are likely to do anything that Robert Jordan writes them to do. And since he is unlikely to kill off one of his three main characters, it is therefore unlikely that the Shaido would dare to make a Blacksmith into a Gai'shain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 13:17:17
subject: <b>Gai'shain</b>
body:
Actually, I've been wondering for a while now why RJ hasn't made a bigger deal of the blacksmith thing.  It's definitely a possibility that he's been &quot;saving up&quot; for some event that's going to happen in the near future.<br /><br />Anyhoo, I can think of a few other reasons why Perrin wouldn't become Gai'shain.<br /><br />1)  Just what exactly is he supposed to do about his army?  Somehow, I don't think the soldiers will take too kindly to their beloved leader being held prisoner by Aiel, which is undoubtedly how they would see it.<br /><br />2)  How does Masema play into all of this?  RJ wouldn't him there without a reason.<br /><br />3)  Perrin seems to be in a mood to do some butt-kicking.  This is backed up by Egwene's dream of Perrin and Aram hacking through brambles that screamed with human voices.


created: 2002-08-30 23:42:00
subject: <b>Sound off folks.</b>
body:
Ok everybody, let's clear the air.  <br />  I think Perrin could possibly be caught after attempting to claim &quot;blacksmith  protection&quot;.   <br />A reasonable effort on his part to work within the Aiel system (as his friends and he know it) just might be better than a frontal assault on a camp of tens of thousands of warriors along with a few hundred Wise Ones.   <br />  Let's look at the situation shall we?<br />Let's not forget the Aiel are the most aggressive and fearless warriors at this time. Sevana has only surrounded herself with the best of them.<br />He could take his small army of a handful of thousands to hit-and-run guerilla style harrassing of his wife's captors.  (But I doubt it.) Sure he has a few A'shaman that are strong, with bad attitudes too.  Masema has a complimentary following of madmen.  Though not his full following of a few hundred thousand misled fanatics.<br />Perrin is a thoughtful administrator.  He has the brains to think on his feet and can get things done. <br /><br />1)Will he walk in or covertly infiltrate Sevana's moving camp thus being vulnerable to capture?  <br />2)Will the axe be wielded to hack and slash with abandon, in a winner take the spoils battle?  <br />This is an over simplification of what seems to be the thread of discussion here.  Choose a side or offer your blend of both!<br />Sound off people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 22:40:41
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I think that is just way too easy. Most likely, something will eventually come out to stop that from happening, whether it be that this only appies to aile blacksmiths, or that once Faile is taken by the Shado, she is no longer marriede to Perrin. I like the general idea of the theory though, but Perrin probaby won't think about it until Faile is back with him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Zerinia Faershiam<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />129 w 87 tree<br />Murrinell Wood, WE, 98833<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 12:35:31
subject: <b>CoT no closer to resolution</b>
body:
I am happy to say that Perrin does again say in CoT that he is a blacksmith more than once in the book.  <br />Yes, my theory may have flaws (as it is originally proposed) but it isn't totally ruled out by the way the RJ has shown us his handling of the story thread.<br />I am also happy to report that in his talk with Elyas Mac. he throws away his axe!  Now what do you make of that since he doesn't get it out of the tree again, and simply walks away.  <br />Please submit your ideas.  This debate is not over!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 15:31:27
subject: <b>On Ta'veren and blacksmiths</b>
body:
There's something you're all forgetting about...<br /><br />In CoT (SPOILER!), Sevanna lets all of the blacksmiths go, the women with children, the pregnant women, the old people, and anybody younger than 16.  Think this means they let all the old ways?  Probably not.  While they did change and start making wetlanders gai'shan, they still let those selected people go, just like they always have.<br /><br />My thought is Perrin walks in wearing a blacksmith kind of outfit, but acts completely surprised that the town he vists occasionaly is now housing Aiel, which he promptly explains at spearpoint to Sevanna/WOs.<br /><br />You always have to remember that RJ does things nobody would expect.  I remember when Rand said he was gonna cleanse Saidan, I nearly dropped.  So many things I wasn't expecting that surprised me so much I had to keep going just to see how it turned out.<br /><br />Another note:  Sevanna doesn't know who Faile is married to.  She thinks that she is NOT married, so that gives her the advantage, and Perrin, until, of course, somebody's lips become too loose for their own good.<br /><br />On Ta'veren:  Perrin CAN'T die, because if he dies, Mat and Rand die (remember Ishy saying that if you cut one down all three topple?).  RJ wouldn't do that to us, unless Rand were to show up and balefires Perrin's killer, thus getting him back.  There is no &quot;Ta'veren mode,&quot; just things happening, twisting around his thread in the Pattern.  He will rescue Faile, but it may take another book or two just to get it done (I haven't finished CoT yet, so this last sentence may be wrong).


created: 2003-02-10 00:16:56
subject: <b>Me like</b>
body:
I had completely forgotten about the blacksmith/Aiel connection, but it now helps with a theory I've had for awhile.  That theory is that Perrin will somehow get the Brotherless to follow him.  He will walk into the Shaido camp and the Brotherless will follow him and they will become the new Aiel that follow the Way of the Leaf.<br /><br />He also will find The Song, and with the Brotherless they will change the Blight into a garden.


created: 2003-02-10 17:40:18
subject: <b>Perrin the Blacksmith</b>
body:
*CoT*... In the Chapter 'What Must be Done' page 601 in the Hardback, we have seen Perrin throw his axe into a tree. When asked by Elyas what to do with it he said to leave it.<br /><br /><i>&quot;What about that, boy?&quot; Elyas asked.<br />Perrin knew what he meant without looking. &quot;Maybe some fool gleeman will make a story out of it.&quot; He strode away towards the camp, never looking back. With its empty loop, the thick belt around his waist was too light. All to no purpose.</i><br /><br />The last line stuck me funny. It would seem that Perrin will have a need to fill that loop, maybe with the forge hammer he once carried. That would make him very recognizable as a Blacksmith when he attempts to free Faile.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2003-06-08 20:58:03
subject: <b>The Empty Belt</b>
body:
It would be great if Perrin coukd rescue all prisoners by just being a Blacksmith, but I can`t see it happening.  <br /><br />The hammer will be his new weapon<br /><br />To the last reply before mine:  The last sentence you quoted is {roughly} &quot;to no purpose&quot;.  This is in reference to him cutting off the Aiel`s hand without getting an answer about Faile.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 13:23:06
subject: <b>Why didn't I think of this?</b>
body:
Now that the theory was laid down in front of me, I am curious as to how such a thing has skipped my mind.  That is not only possible, but fits together into the story perfectly.  I doubt that is what they will use, however, because I believe Robert Jordan will want to make it flashier than that.


created: 2003-06-26 19:58:11
subject: <b>Whew! 1+ year's work, and we're still not done.</b>
body:
Folks,<br />This thread is over a year old and I'm happy to see you are still posting your thoughts.  I've cajolled and challenged you to take off your gloves and hit this theory hard and some of you have.  <br /><br />(My primary reason for writing the theory was to demonstrate that I believe that Perrin being a blacksmith is a character whose conflict with the Aiel has a unique twist.)<br /><br />Basically, we will still have to read and find out.  <br /><br />To the ones who contributed to this thread, thank you for your support. <br /> <br />I am enjoying the conversation here and learned only too late that I should have begun replying to postings sooner.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-07 14:46:48
subject: <b>Blacksmith</b>
body:
Let's see...how many times have we heard Perrin say something along the lines of &quot;I'm just a blacksmith&quot;?<br />How many times have we heard an Aiel comment on how blacksmiths are untouchable?<br />Why is Perrin involved with a conflict with the Shaido and not Rand or Mat?<br />Since Perrin no longer has his axe, does that mean he'll pick up the hammer?<br /><br />I think the answer is yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eben<br />AshamanWarder<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-10 12:08:05
subject: <b>Shaido have no honor</b>
body:
The Shaido have repeatedly shown themselves to be worms.  They have taken wetlanders as Gai'shain even though they do not follow Ji'e'toh(sp).  And as for Sevanna, she may as well be a darkfriend for all the garbage she's been doing and condoning in her clan.  Why would she suddenly feel bound to Aiel ways, such as the Blacksmith rule, when nothing else seems to matter?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A new age is soon to come, borne squarely upon the shoulders of the Dragon Reborn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-25 11:59:25
subject: <b>A part to play,but which?</b>
body:
That Perrin is a blacksmith is somehow essential to the story.<br />Both the Aiel and the &quot;Windfinders&quot; hold them in high esteem. The &quot;Sea-people&quot; have some sort of practice that a blacksmith must, if called to judge, be obeyed. They are above kings or laws.<br /><br />In one book Perrin is &quot;drawn&quot; into a blacksmiths shop and makes something.I think someone wanted him to make something that could be used to prove Perrins status.<br />Maybe he will have to(against his own will),judge Rand over some matter, that would also explain some of the wievings/dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> It's time to toss the dice.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-20 12:43:48
subject: <b>Sorry...</b>
body:
That won't work because Perrin does not know that helpful little fact. <br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 10:20:31
subject: <b>great post and debate</b>
body:
let me add this though. I think it is very important that Bain and Chiad were taken when Faile was. If your theory is correct here are 2 Aiel that know Perrin is a blacksmith.(im surprised no one has mentiond this yet)therefor if Sevenna does something to him they could let everyone know. <br />Also Robert Jordan loves to do things no one expects. so why not have this happen. We also know Perrin has and will give up everything for his wife. I think it was CoT that he said Tarmon'Gaiden or not my wife is more important. So this might just be something Perrin would try. <br /><br />Just my 2 coppers<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 09:38:46
subject: <b>An escape scenario IMHO</b>
body:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but Faile is a simple prisoner currently with no one in the Aiel camp aware of her connections or the hidden nobility in her group.  <br /><br />Therefore her unknown husband Perrin, can do the blacksmith captured from a local village along with his pals the Ashaman.  Gaul acting as one of the brotherless will provide a good cover story.  <br /><br />In such a large camp of tens of thousands it is likely that they would be inconspicuous until they make a move to free a gaishain girl and her friends.  Then someone gets a scratch and as we all know, all heck will break loose.<br /><br />When the male half of the One Power is used the WO will come running up only to see how ineffective they are.  A preplanned signal will be executed when Faile's party is located.  A diversionary attack on the perimeter will be the cover for Perrin and his Ashaman protectors to make a get away.  <br /><br />However not being so easily distracted Therava having closely watched Faile for weeks will corner the escape party and strike a deal with Faile and Perrin to 'assist' their escape on the condition that Savanna dies in the melee giving her control of the Shaido.  <br /><br />Not to overlook the Wheel turning on Perrin's behalf; the Shaido respect power and will somehow become tentative allies for Rand through Perrin.  Perrin will march along with them to join Rand with the Prophet, his own small army and the Aiel a force about a quarter million strong.  <br /><br />To sum up: Sevanna will die or become a prisoner herself, Therava will be humbled, the Ashaman will have kicked a few hundred Aiel around, Perrin elevated even more and a Jordan style coup will have worked to the greater good of all.  Tarmon Gaidon is now that much closer and much needed man power marching northward to join Rand is always appreciated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-11 10:08:38
subject: <b>Blacksmiths</b>
body:
I have noticed many things like this, where there is something that would seemingly be a solution, that is not taken.  I think that is very interesting and if he actually goes that way, I will be very impressed with him for finding a solution in something he had earlier (much earlier) written.  I did not recall that Avhienda had made such a statement. (The old brain is a little too fuzzy)... <br /><br />But in any case, it does not seem to matter to Sevanna what Aiel culture says.  She is taking wetlanders as slaves, who she calls gai'shan but that actually, in the aiel mind, I think, makes her actions more eggregious. <br /><br />In general I think this is an interesting concept but the only way it would really help Perrin (especially since he is not truly a &quot;practicing&quot; blacksmith in any case anymore) would be if Therava and the others seized upon this as an excuse to supplant Sevanna, who they greatly dislike. I am more interested by what happens to Galina, the black sister whom I hate, than to anyone else in that camp. I care not one whit for Faile. I hate that stupid chick. She deserved to be caught and horsewhipped. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I don't know to what extent this mirrors what other people have already said. I will have to read through them and see how original I am.  I am guessing, not very! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-11 10:19:18
subject: <b>Just thought of something</b>
body:
This may be lame, but I am wondering, maybe the blacksmiths are accorded so much respect (and why there are so FEW of them is that comment way above is right) is that they have chosen a profession that is REALLY HOT (think fiery furnaces) in a place that is really hot (Waste) and where there is no water.  Therefore, the impression could be that here are men able to take a LOT, which is highly respected among the aiel. Therefore, they don't have to fight (Or do they? On this I am not quite sure) because 1)they are very needed and scarce so they don't want to go killing them off and 2)because they are already well respected and don't NEED to fight to gain ji. Or whatever. Thoughts?


created: 2004-06-11 10:30:11
subject: <b>In response to the &quot;escape scenario&quot;</b>
body:
You have forgotten about the incoming Seanchan.  They are a factor as well. Rand NEEDS more men because he has not only insurrection in his lands, but also a hostile army threatening his already tentative holds. Having the Shaido, awesome fighters, however untrustworthy (and I illogically like Therava)... he can use them to smash the Seanchan who are usually predominantly composed of unimpressive fighters and &quot;volunteers&quot; from the people they have already taken anyway.


