# w_comment

created: 2002-04-22 02:25:55
subject: <b>Two women to one man...</b>
body:
How many things in this series are going to require two women linked with one man? Callandor is one, and then male a'dam is another.  I can't think of any others offhand, but at this rate I don't see why we wouldn't see any more in the near future.


created: 2002-04-24 21:47:04
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
WHy does anyone have to wield callandor??? I don't think theres anything saying they will. But if they do it will most likely be Narishma. He is the one to follow after. Someone said Logain was less powerfull than most men. He was obviously stronger than Nynaeve and they used six women to hold him which is the same amount as they used on Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WoTmen<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />need freedom to roll the dice!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />Female rulers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />need to be spammed!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-18 14:05:15
subject: <b>to Noal</b>
body:
They always use six to hold the shield, just in case, so while i agree with you that Logain is one of the strongest male channelers, this doesnt prove it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 16:49:32
subject: <b>Yes it does!</b>
body:
It says that they NEEDED 6 aes sedai (I think), and anyway, Logain was stronger than Nynaeve. <br /><br />Doesn't it feel strange replying to a two-year old comment...?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 23:26:10
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Hee Hee</b>
body:
I would Just like to agree with myself, in relation to asking Paco51;  Why not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 00:18:19
subject: <b>How much?</b>
body:
How much do you charge for that stuff you're on?<br />I mean the dark one touches the world with bubbles of evil and all sorts of weird crap....and the creator, the evil equivilant of good, comes as.....a horse....a FREAKIN horse!!<br />Careful forsaken, this horse is gonna put dirt in your eyes...<br />Good theory though, it just lacks thought...<br /><br />ahahahaa<br />just having some fun buddie<br />ahahahaha<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-18 07:05:13
subject: <b>It's so obvious!</b>
body:
Isn't it, though? The only reason RJ puts stuff in about Bela is because he thinks it's absolutely hilarious watching fans scratch their heads at the significance of it all! Or, she really is the Creator and MAKES him put her in every book. Hmmmmmmm<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 17:59:07
subject: <b>three words</b>
body:
<br />Bill the Pony<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 11:39:34
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Bela is Nae'blis, she will rule the world!! <br /><br />note: she turned the the dark because she was mad at rand for killing Narg, who was going to be the Nae'blis befour he died<br /><br />-Asmodean-


created: 2002-05-16 16:29:50
subject: <b>Bela Rules All!</b>
body:
Bela is the ceator just like Bill is in LOTR it makes perfect sense, then they get married and the the WOT world and LOTR world merge to make our world we live in now...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dragar High Lord of the Noldor</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 15:36:44
subject: <b>bela...</b>
body:
i think its interesting that Bela has never appeared alongside Luc or Isam.  could it be that she is another manifestation of Slayer??


created: 2002-08-16 04:37:53
subject: <b>Else she is the Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
Excellent theory. To bad RJ claims that the Creator is not intervening in the world.<br /><br />Perhaps she is the Dragon Reborn?<br /><br />Item 1) She appears in Tel'aran'rhiod<br /><br />Item 2) The critical clue which &quot;reveals&quot; the Dragon Reborn to Moiraine (Bela's unaccounted vigor) was simply misread.<br /><br />Item 3) Min's initial reading of Rand: Min herself claims it was unique.  That's because it was a <i>double reading</i>!  She saw herself because of the personal connection, but underlying it all was a similar (residual) reading from Bela.  Bela, of course, has been ridden by three women of note, and two of them Amyrlins.<br /><br />Item 4) Bela was raised by Tam al'Thor.  Substitute &quot;colt&quot; for &quot;babe&quot; (hey, he was delirous) in the fever rant and it makes perfect sense.<br /><br />Item 5) Who is Rand al'Thor?  A man who can channel; a man who leads armies; a man who claims to be the Dragon Reborn.  What does this add up to?  A false Dragon!<br /><br />Item 6) (The clincher) Of all major characters, only Bela has four feet!  Quite conspicously, no one has checked her toes, because I am sure they would find five of them. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-JasonDrake<br />&quot;Where the far left meets the far right&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 19:47:51
subject: <b>Just a note</b>
body:
I really don't think Bela is the creator, don't get me wrong, but for those of you who think it's completely far-fetched, I should point out that there have been stories in which a perfectly innocent animal has turned out to be the creator. The first one off of the top of my head is the popular anime Magic night Rayearth.<br /><br />I personally think RJ's just stealing the idea from Tolkien's Bill the Pony. Bill disappeared rather early in the books, leaving many readers disappointed. RJ is just giving us what Tolkien couldn't.


created: 2002-11-09 10:07:17
subject: <b>Not the Creator, but still might be significant</b>
body:
I do not think that Bela is the Creator, because I believe it was stated that the Creator would play no part (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't, however, doubt that she will play some sort of role in the end.<br />There are lots of comparisons to LotR in these books... Sam and Bill, Egwene and Bela.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">TRust is as slippery as an eel, sometimes. - Suian Sanche</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-04 00:45:49
subject: <b>Bela = R2D2?</b>
body:
Bela's character is the same as R2D2 in star wars.<br /><br />again, think of the only good character to make it into every single star wars movie (Obiwan doesn't count since he wasn't alive for 2 of them).<br /><br />R2d2 is constantly rescuing the good guys just in the nick of time in seemingly insignificant ways, but are actually very critical. (Just like bela).<br /><br />just a random similarity thought.<br />


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Lumies rule!!</b>
body:
The lumies *illuminators for non fang players* are gonna be the ones that kill the DO!  I mean, isn't it obvious?  Sheesh, makes me glad I'm a lumie, not a dumb ordinary Sedai or something.<br />*opinions in this post are not neccisarily the opinion of all the voices, just the one in control at the moment* *giggle*<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-08-14 12:29:26
subject: <b>They're all property</b>
body:
Except Aludra, Mat mentions in WH: In Need of a Bellfounder, that they wouln't let the Seanchan forces into the chapter house in Tanchico.  The Seanchan eventually got in and an explosion occured and the Seanchan thought it was someone channeling, so they gathered them all up and made them <i> da'covale. </i><br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 12:18:35
subject: <b>Mat is working on it.</b>
body:
If you recall in 'Winters Heart' Mat begins to think of ways that he can use the Illuminator's knowledge of fireworks to drive the Seanchan from Ebou Dar.  Through his dealings with Aludra I feel he will soon develop gunpowder and possibly cannons to counter the Seanchans use of the One Power in battle and also their exotic animals.  I concur with 'wotmania' that this would in no way be a true match for Aes Sedai or Asha'man, but it would be a helpful substitute to regular troops and members of the Band of the Red Hand.  I'm not sure how far Mat got in his plans for the fireworks, I've only read 'Winters Heart' once, and need to pour over it more carefully at some point.


created: 2002-02-16 15:56:20
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
One possible aspect of the illuminators could be as replacements for when the ashamen are not there. I mean, perhaps it's not always best to count on a group of people who could suddenly go insane. But anyway, they could be liek the reserves for when the ashaman get to tired tochannel.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 18:00:46
subject: <b>Mat and the Illuminators</b>
body:
We all know that Mat has had an extreme interest with fireworks. This has only increased since he met Aludra. It seems that she is ready to tell him some of her secrets about fireworks if he can fiqure out what a bellfounder is needed for. Well in order to make a cannon you need a bellfounder. You forge the two halves like you would a bell, but with thicker walls. I think that within either CoT or the next book in the serise Mat will have his cannon and his secret of the Illuminators. Not to mention that due to his 'other' memories he'll probaly figure out how to use them in effective ways. This Theory is closely related to another prophecy regarding Mat but perhaps I'll use that in another post at another time.


created: 2002-04-30 20:56:02
subject: <b>Egwene's dream</b>
body:
Don't forget Egwene's dream in CoS I think it was?  In one of her &quot;special&quot; dreams she saw Mat catching a firework in his hand.  Then, she felt dread and she knew that men would die because of it.  If that's not a reference to Mat's future invention I don't know what is<br /><br />The Lord Captain Commander <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-27 11:46:50
subject: <b>Mat</b>
body:
I think RJ has had Rand ignore the Illuminators because they will become important through Mat after all what is a great General without a big huge exploding cannon on his side


created: 2002-08-09 06:34:10
subject: <b>Seanchan will wield Illuminators</b>
body:
I'm certain that whatever weapons arise from the Illuminators will be wielded by the Seanchan.<br /><br />First, they are already linked twice.  Aludra is in Ebou Dar, the current center of Seanchan power on the continent.  Mat is in her confidence, and he will marry Tuan.  We know that the Seanchan will fight alongside Dragonsworn in the final battle (because Rand will &quot;bind the Nine Moons&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Second, the Seanchan are the masters of innovative warfare.  They use chained Grolm, the One Power and crossbows.  They are well-organized and extremely pragmatic in conqured territories.  They even have an air force.  I'm sure they'd love to develop some primitive firearms or cannon.<br /><br />Finally, Jordan is running short on time if he really expects to finish in twelve books with a good build-up to Tarmon Gaidon.  Seanchan expropriation of Illuminator technology will be faster than Seanchan fighting Illuminator technology.  Trying to convince the woolheaded Tairens or Aiel to adopt different weapons would take a whole book.  <br /><br />On another note: I don't expect powder weapons to play a large role or to be very advanced.  Everything Jordan has written so far has been exceptionally faithful to the fantasy genre.  Introducing guns and bombs into the story, no matter how logical it may seem, would be an anathema to his carefully developed setting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-JasonDrake<br />&quot;Where the far left meets the far right&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-11 02:26:17
subject: <b>Mat an the use of gun powder</b>
body:
The Illuminators hold a key that will benifit in the final battle, Mat as we know searches for their seceret, what are fire crackers made of, gun powder. I believe Mat will use gun powder in the final battle, thus taking the enemy by suprise.. Dont forget the fact that he has all those memorys of war.. <br /><br />Robb<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Wounds of Madness and Cutting of Hope</b>
body:
I've said for a long time that the prophecies of the Dragon din't refer to just Rand, but to all those around him as well.  "He shall bind the nine moons to serve him." Well, yes, but only thru Mat.  The 'wounds of madness' are most definatly the taint, which he has *probably* fixed, BUT I still think the "cutting of hope" is loosing the ability to channel.  And Nynaeve and one of the Asha'man (now I forget who) figured THAT one out.


created: 2001-06-02 20:12:35
subject: <b>Prophecy is fun</b>
body:
&quot;...he shall bind the nine moons to serve him...&quot; - The Seanchan Imperial seat is called The Court of the Nine Moons, Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons. That settles that one. Mat will bring Tuon to Rand, but Rand will make her kneel, by Ta'verenness.<br /><br />&quot;...wound of madness...&quot; -- The taint on Saidin, already cleansed.<br /><br />&quot;...and cutting of hope...&quot; -- Stilling/gentling. Solved by Nynaeve and Damer.<br /><br />Note: It isn't beyond the norm for there to be two manifestations of a single prophecy. The wound of madness might also refer to the wound Rand received from Ishamael's staff in their fight, and the cutting of hope then may also refer to the slice atop that wound from Fain's SL dagger.<br /><br />The prophecy regarding people put into chains, and chains broken may have any number of interpretations at this point. <br /><br />Remember all of the sul'dam they captured in the battle between Ebou Dar and Illian. The Aes Sedai were set to work convincing them they could all channel, which would tear down part of the very fabric of Seanchan life, but would lead to the eventual release of all damane. I see that as definitely breaking someone's chains. <br /><br />I can't think that the prisoner Aes Sedai following Dumai's Wells qualifies as putting into chains, because we have already seen most if not all of them swear fealty to him. In fact, Elza, who was not only one of those but Black Ajah, was with the group who fought off the Forsaken when Rand cleansed Saidin. If fealty to the Dragon qualifies as being put into chains, I don't see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 00:16:46
subject: <b>The Prophecies</b>
body:
Well I think that several of the &quot;prophicies of the dragon&quot; dont actually point at the dragon at all but rather at other people like the part about the nine moons is actually ABOUT Mat and not really about Rand binding the through Mat.<br /><br />Lytjan Morillin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  Channeling Warder  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-11-15 20:03:04
subject: <b>Pretty Good...</b>
body:
I agree with the 'binding the Nine Moons to serve him' relating to the Seanchan.  I however agree with Call_Me_Tim about the 'wounds of madness' referring to the cleansing of Saidan, and the 'cutting of hope' referring to  referring to 'stilling/gentling'.  <br /><br />I had another thought about the 'What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?'.  This may refer to Asmodean.  Think about it -- Rand cut Asmodean's 'chains' to the Dark One.  Asmodean was then pretty much put into chains, and into Rand's service (This was by Lanfear, but notice that it does not say 'and who has he put into chains?').  That's just a thought though.  Overall, good theory!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-16 16:53:58
subject: <b>into chains...</b>
body:
Perhaps since Rand has such a problem killing women, even the Forsaken, he will convince his Aei Sedai allies to chain the female forsaken to fight for the Light by using adam.  The chains broken could refer either to releasing the Seanchan damane or to breaking the chain of the female Forsaken to the DO.


created: 2001-06-19 00:01:17
subject: <b>Bela......</b>
body:
Nynaeve didnt know Perrin was in the camp as a prisoner, what she knew or thought to her self was  <br />EOTW: the long chase, pb 563 &quot;the first horse on it was bela.....Whichever of the boys was in the camp, Egwene was there too&quot;


created: 2001-09-01 18:06:27
subject: <b>umm...</b>
body:
<br />I think ppl are a little whacked out on bela.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 09:26:56
subject: <b>Can Nynaeve Talk To Horses?</b>
body:
This isn't really anything special, but I just decided to 'bridge the gap' so to speak. I was reading Adleib's theory Regarding Bela's Significance in WoT and it sparked a thought in my memory of a theoy posted in the humerous section. Someone wrote that long ago in Crow indian folklore there was a crowne called Nynacteve (or something close to it) who could tell the future via her intricate braid ( Nyneave-Braid, this could be interesting) and that she could also talk to horses. After reading Adleib's theory of Nyneaves 'tele-communication with Bela' when he found Perrin and Egwene with the whitecloakes, i just decided to but two and two together and... Tada! I have a theory.<br /><br />          So might Nyn be able to talk to horses? It would be interesting if she could...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-10 10:42:47
subject: <b>another therory</b>
body:
	I think Bella is always around when she is needed because in EotW Rand is woried about Bella being LEFT BEHIND.  Most people just assume that he increased her stamina or something like that but I beleive that he made it impossible for her to be left behind.  So due to whatever Rand did Bella is always at the right place at the right time, not nesisarily to save the characters but so that she is not left behind.


created: 2001-11-18 17:10:39
subject: <b>or Bela's Insignificance...</b>
body:
Here's the thing.  I think the only reason Bela keeps popping up is so that RJ doesn't have to keep naming new horses.  Besides everybody has come to love Bela and it would be a pity if Bela was lost or killed.


created: 2002-01-08 18:39:00
subject: <b>WTF?</b>
body:
How is it a lame idea like this gets posted and my thoughts that perhaps the ogier's longing is caused by the taint doesn't?


created: 2002-01-22 20:51:09
subject: <b>Nope, sorry</b>
body:
If you totally disregard the fact that Nyn SAW Bela and that's how she knew Perrin and Egwene were in the camp, the answer is right in EotW.  She could have found them anyway, as long as she was in the vicinity.  During the scenes following their separation at Shadar Logoth, when Moiraine is revealing to Nyn that she too can channel, Moi flat out tells Nyn that the reason she could go straight to their inn in Baerlon is because she had once Healed Egwene of breakbone fever.  Moi goes on to say that Healing causes an affinity to develop between the Healer and the patient.  Nyn realizes that she has always known when people were near that her &quot;cures&quot; had worked particularly well on.  So, you see, she would have known anyway, even if she hadn't seen Bela standing there as meek as milkwater.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 21:25:32
subject: <b>LOL!</b>
body:
this one ought to have been dumped in &quot;Humorous Theroies&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 17:09:52
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
well, you never know...maybe Bela will indeed rescue Egwene from the Aes Sedai that captured her at the end of CoT...it could happen. Or not. I lean toward the second possibility, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beka Sedai<br /><br />fell for you like a suicide from a bridge</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>yes, but</b>
body:
I like the author's theory.<p>If Machin Shin were a product of the Taint on Saidin, Why would it kill creatures of light and dark indisciminantly?<br />The madness described with the wind and of those who escape it are VERY similar to those who escape Shadar Logoth that were touched in a similar way.  </p><p>However, I do not think that it will be a big deal.  Since they will have to be cleaned at some point to continue the cycle, maybe the ways will have to be cleansed... I don't know</p><p></p><p><br /></p>


created: 2001-06-20 11:44:59
subject: <b>Chicken or Egg?</b>
body:
Well, I guess one way to rule out Machin Shin coming from Mashadar is to determine whether Machin Shin existed before Mashadar.  Anybody know?


created: 2001-07-20 01:16:24
subject: <b>Machin Shin and Mashadar</b>
body:
I always thought there was a connection between Mashadar and Machin Shin, actually. Not necessarily that they are the same, but that there is a connection. Remember that Padan Fain was unaffected by Machin Shin, after his run in with Mordeth. We have no proof he used the Ways before then (the Trollocs used the Ways to attack Emond's Field, Fain could have walked though.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 15:34:49
subject: <b>How about this one......</b>
body:
I hadn't thought about it before, but.....<br /><br />Suppose the Black Wind is a mutation of the taint on saidin and Mashadar (how ever it's spelled)just as Fain is now a mutation of the combinings of both the direct touch of the DO and the evil that killed Arihdol.  Fain survived his expierence with the Black Wind, just as he survived his confrontation with Mashadar.  Any thoughts....<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-04 15:10:39
subject: <b>the same and different</b>
body:
	We Know that the Shadar Logoth evil and the Dark One's Evil are different forms of evil (talk when healing the new wound in Rand's side).  Machin Shin is formed from the taint on sadin the same way Masadar is formed form the taint in Shadar Logoth


created: 2002-01-09 12:45:22
subject: <b>The Eye of the World</b>
body:
Fain's encounter in Shadar Logoth merged him with Mordeth, making them one entity. Adding this to Fain's power granted by the Dark One makes him one evil dude. Moiraine said at the end of EotW after questioning him that when he encountered Machin Shin in the Ways, he had scared it off due to the vileness of his being. During this encounter, he had gained some control over the Black Wind, enabling him to set it as a guard against Rand entering the Ways.<br /><br />Speculation amongst the characters throughout the series labels the Black Wind as some sort of parasite that grew in the Ways, since the Ways are grown and not created.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-29 12:14:38
subject: <b>Well, it may not make sense</b>
body:
but my brain is peculiar at times.  For some reason, my little noodle cooked up the notion that Machin Shin is a conglomeration of the taint and the souls of people who died in the Ways.  Remember every scene when someone always thinks that if you fell off a ramp or bridge, you would fall forever?  Well, until you went mad and starved to death, anyway.  I got that in my head wayyyy back in the beginning and now for some reason I always think of Machin Shin as being a mixture of spirits of people who died in the Ways and the taint on Saidin.  Even reading this I can see how this is pretty off-base.  But you know how it is when you get an idea in your head and it won't go away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 15:58:05
subject: <b>I Think he could be right</b>
body:
Look at it this way every one always assumes that since male Channlers Created the Ways that it must be the Taint That caused the Black wind. But what if its the Shadar Logoth Taint That would explain the ways being destroyed since we always see the two evils fighting each other!!!any ways thats my 2c


created: 2002-05-17 16:07:36
subject: <b>About your question.</b>
body:
Well, Machin Shin CAN come into our world. Remember when Rand opened the waygate in Cairhein? It was bulging out slowly, and was making it`s way into our world. And the reason it hasn`t spilled over into the WOT world is because before Moiraine and co. used the ways, they weren`t used after they became corrupted.<br /><br />And as for other comments about why does it kill both light and shadow creatures . . . don`t Trollocs do the same?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 02:33:39
subject: <b>I agree because...</b>
body:
...both arose after the Trolloc Wars.  That's when Aridhol became Shadar Logoth, and that's when the Ways were tainted.  There has to be a connection.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 19:57:01
subject: <b>Other reasons for Mashdar = Machin Shin</b>
body:
You're totally onto something here.  I've always felt the two were connected. I think MS is a blending of Mashadar with the taint.<br /><br />1) MS can't be purely a product of the taint.  The DO can control the taint and make people immune from it.  Since he would probably prefer not to have his Trolloc armies gobbled up, he would likely neutralize MS whenever they are in the Ways.<br /><br />2) So if the DO cannot control MS, it must be because he has either lost control of it or didn't have anything to do with its creation.  It's doubtful that he lost control since everything suggests that he is increasingly able to affect the world.  So this leaves him not having created it.<br /><br />3) Shadar Logoth is a bad place.  There is a waygate there.  Now we know that Mashadar cannot leave SL, but when you're in the Ways, you're not really any &quot;where&quot;.  If Mashadar seeped into the Ways when some poor schmuck used the Waygate and eventually became (or, as I think is more likely, reacted with the taint and mutated into) MS, this would explain why MS cannot leave the Ways.  To do so would be reentering Randland in some place other than SL - which Mashadar, and hence MS, cannot do.<br /><br />4) We know Mashadar only plays at night.  The Ways, conveniently, are always dark.  So maybe after the taint starting corrupting the Ways they got dark, which enabled Mashadar to move in, becoming MS in the process.<br /><br />5) If MS exists purely because of the taint on Saidin that was used to grow the ways, why isn't there a similar phenomenon in the skimming place when accessed by men?<br /><br />6) Padan Fain is one bad dude, but he probably doesn't have any OP or TP to use.  So if MS is made by the taint, then why does MS never bother him?  It makes sense only if MS was at least part of SL.<br /><br />7) Big evidence - Rand cannot use the Ways anymore because MS is always waiting for him.  We know that MS is not everywhere all at once in the Ways - it has a tangible location.  So how can it always know where Rand is going to be?  Either there are a bunch of MS clones guarding all the gates, which we know it isn't true, or MS has both the ability and the motive to zero in on Rand's location. Hmm, who does that sound like?  Could it be...Padan?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> The Ways are decaying, SL is decaying.  Both are falling apart in the same, gradual way.  I grant you, this could be an effect of the taint alone, but don't the similarities between the Ways and SL seem just a bit too coincidental?<br /><br />9) At no other time has the taint on Saidin caused channeling to go awry - whether for men or women - as happens in the Ways.  (Granted, the Bowl of Winds did some weird things, but it probably wasn't because of the large amount of Saidin used.  During Rand's fight with Asmodean both accessed the Choedan Kal - using far more power than the BoW could have harnessed - and no ill effects were felt.)  Anyway, if the taint doesn't affect the outcome of channeling, something else must - the only other plausible explanation is that somehow the evil of Aridhol is affecting the Ways.<br /><br />10) Problems with 9 - OK, so why can you channel just fine in SL?  I don't know.  Anyway, it would be interesting to see someone use the TP in the Ways (I don't think this has been done).<br /><br />11) Question for those wiser than I - Did Matt ever bring the dagger into the Ways?  How did MS react?<br /><br />In conclusion - I really think there is a connection between MS and Mashadar - probably some Mashadar / Taint blending.  Yum.


created: 2003-03-06 20:03:14
subject: <b>Quick Addendum</b>
body:
After reading a few other posts, I was reminded that the creators of the Ways put some nasty things in them to take care of Shadowspawn.  I can easily imagine that Mashadar got connected with that &quot;nasty thing&quot; when it seeped into the Ways and Poof! - Machin Shin


created: 2007-10-18 13:28:37
subject: <b>I don't really know what is written down there, just a theory</b>
body:
Here is a little question I have:<br /><br />If Machin Shin was a product from the Taint, wouldn't the Forsaken be protected from it? At least the male ones, as they don't go mad from the Taint because of some protection from the DO? That does not seem logical, that they would be protected from it, I think, as many times the EXTREME dangers with Machin Shin is talked about... And as it seems to be common knowledge among Aes Sedai that Machin Shin and the taint on the waygates are from the Taint on Saidin... So why wouldn't the clever Brown Ajah for example have figured this out? Either the Aes Sedai are stupid, the Taint really has nothing to do with Machin Shin, and the Aes Sedai just pretend it is sort of the same thing, OR there is something about this I have missed...


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
If they are just like Mats necklace and some people think that it only stops female channlers (cause those are the only Ase Sedai at the time of the wish) then maybe gholam are like that. It is said that half the Gholam are females and half are males, i think that male gholam cant be hurt by female channelers and females cant be hurt by male channelers. I dont have any proof so im ending this here.<p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 10:57:23
subject: <b>My take</b>
body:
All right, remember that there were gholams made seperate to kill women and men. Perhaps if a gholam that is immune t Saidar gets tied up in fkows of Saidin and hacked to pieces with it, perhaps that'd work. Maybe vice versa too.


created: 2001-06-27 01:00:06
subject: <b>Mat's Medallion</b>
body:
Just a thought, but Mat wished for his madallion to protect him from AS.  If I remember correctly, the eye of the fox in the medallion is the ancient symbol for AS.  If that is the case wouldn't it make sense for Mat's medalion to work both ways?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 19:53:00
subject: <b>Aginor and the True Power</b>
body:
I like the idea of gholmns being killed by the true power, it's just that not all the forsaken were given permission to use the true power.  So far only Mordin has used it, I think.  And Graendal was appalled by this when she found out.  I think it's more likly to be power wrought weapons as the killer.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Sedia<br />Time doesn't stop... it's so sad.  <br />Mob Mistress to Lord Escobar, Dirty Mob Doctor<br />The bonded/bondee of The Dirty Escobar as well.<br /><br />Taters??  What's taters?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 13:14:19
subject: <b>ummm....</b>
body:
No.   Any of the Forsaken can use the True Power, they just don't, because it is too dangerous.  I think only Ishmael (or Moridin, if you prefer) uses the True Power with any regularity (which is probably why he is so crazy).  In WH, Demandred says that he himself uses the True Power, although only in desperate situations, because of the consequences (a horrible and painful death).<br /><br /><i>I am the only Big Red Dragon&#8482;</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 04:31:54
subject: <b>The foxhead necklace...</b>
body:
...does stop saidin. When Halima (Aran'gar) tried to channel something at him it did not work. He felt the foxhead go cold on his chest. When he turned around Halima had a shocked look on her face. And as we all know by now (at least I hope all of us do) Halima channels saidin. She is a man in a womans body. Mat still thinks the necklace does not stop saidin for some reason. I dont remember why he thinks that.<br /><br />I believe its the same for the gholam as the foxhead. I dont think balefire will work either. Its channeling and channaling just does not work. The weaves will just melt away. Using the the power to throw things at the gholam would only slow it down. Lightning or fireballs might work against them, but I dont think they will kill them. After all when blades cut them it does not appear to hurt them and the wounds heal almost immediatly. I think the wounds recieved by lightning and firballs would heal just as quickly without really harming them.<br /><br />I like the idea of Power wrought weapons working on the gholam. I think they may be the only thing that will work. Somethings got to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-11 04:38:41
subject: <b>You all forgot one thing...</b>
body:
I may be wrong here but I think Elayne will have a huge impact on killing a Gholam.  <br /><br />She can make Ter's and I have a feeling she will make a weapon like one that has the same effect as Mat's Foxhead.  I see new spear or staff /axe or hammer/ sword  for one of our fav men.<br /><br /><br />Just my thoughts.<br /><br />Pinte<br />


created: 2001-12-09 18:36:52
subject: <b>My view</b>
body:
I thik BTW that the fox amulet can't stop male channeling.<br />Why? <br />Because Rahvin killed Matt in tFoH with a ligthning(Rand saved him with balefire).<br />So Gholam could be killed with TP I think and some way with the amulet<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 00:54:34
subject: <b>saidin vs mat's medallion</b>
body:
I have heard and now believe that mats medallion blocks both halves of the one power but in the case of tFoH, the lightning that killed mat wasn't directly saidin from Rahvin. the weaves for lightning are more producing and guiding where to strike. unlike a binding or striking flow of air, which we have all seen unravel upon impact with mat, the weaves dont actually TOUCH mat. There for i dont think that lightning would kill it because it would just reheal itself muchlike the bad guy in terminator 2. it would slow it down a lot more that a fireball would though just due to the damage it would cause. thats all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-03-26 02:34:30
subject: <b>True Power no bar to friendly neighborhood gholam</b>
body:
This is just merely me sprouting an idea that just at this instance popped into my head. The gholam cannot be affected by the True Power. A lot of people seem to be saying that Aginor is an extremely intelligent man (so smart he died twice, though, poor Forsaken), and would have created a &quot;backdoor&quot; way of controlling the gholam. We have learned of many of the things Aginor has created through his mad scientist routine, such as Trollocs, worms, etc. But the focus here should be on those fun-loving ghouls, the Myrdraal. He ACCIDENTALY created those eyeless freaks. He had no idea how they were formed, nor how they operate. Can we truly expect that such a brilliant man knows a secret to the gholam? A brilliant man, who after testing countless Myrdraal to see how they function, could not ascertain what they did? A brilliant man who, even had he the supreme knowledge, is dead? So, even if he did know, which seems doubtful to me, he's dead anyway. More the pity. And what are the chances of him coming back one last chance? But then again, you do get three strikes in baseball....


created: 2002-05-07 17:14:04
subject: <b>Using the True Power to kill Gholam</b>
body:
First of all, about a comment in the actual theory that those pesky little goodie-goodies could capture one of the Chosen and force him or her to use the True Power against a Gholam...<br /><br />The True Power may only be channeled with the Blessings of the Great Lord, Chosen or no.  Being captured by Dragonfriends doesn't count as being in favor.  Not even the Nae'blis could channel the TP if he displeased the Great Lord, and yes, being captured and coerced by the Dragonfriends DOES count as being in disfavor (Great Mistress Moghedien and that traitor, Asmodean).<br /><br />Which brings me to my next point:  I don't remember where I read it, but I think it was Demandred who mentioned that only Great Master Moridin could channel the true power since his annointing as Nae'blis.  &quot;Only Moridin was allowed that privelege, since his....  anointing.&quot; or something to that effect.  So only the Nae'blis would be able to kill one of the Gholam with the True Power.<br /><br />-poor_WoT_addict<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Servant of the Dark One<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-05 22:25:17
subject: <b>gholam vs medallion</b>
body:
the foxhead medallion did not work just like Gholam. they said it was different; in the Gholam weaves melted, and in the medallion they were absorbed.  i do think Gholam have a weakness but i dont think it is that simple-balefire would most defenately work, but i dont think the forsaken wouldbe so afraid of the Gholam if it had such a simple akileas heel.


created: 2002-10-17 13:47:51
subject: <b>Agree with Pinte...</b>
body:
Mat's medallion probably isn't silver, because when things get madet ter'angreal, they aren't  the substance it was(like the &quot;stone&quot; ring made to enter T'A'R). So when ELayne gets the hang of makinter'angreal, she'll probably make some sort of weapon of the same material as the madallion, and it will be used in the slaying.


created: 2002-11-13 10:18:56
subject: <b>How to kill it...</b>
body:
It&#180;s easy to kill it...just make a agteway and walk through it and when the gholam follows you make the gateway dispapear and slice it...


created: 2003-12-06 16:49:13
subject: <b>How to Kill a Gholam</b>
body:
I have yet so see anyone mention this. But I think that the way to kill a Gholam is with Cuindillar (sry about spelling I know it's wrong, don't have the book in front of me). I think this because it absorbs the One Power kinda like a the medallion (in a slightly different way). So I think they will make a Weapon made from Cuindillar and that will kill the Gholam.


created: 2004-09-10 18:01:16
subject: <b>Humz...</b>
body:
Okay. #1. Bladed weapons and flame are different. (think trolls, in standard dungeons and dragons games.)<br />#2. I highly doubt the spearhead would act the same way as the medallion would. HIGHLY. It doesn't protect from the One Power, just because that's what it was made of. (proof: book 6 , Shadar Logoth, Rand touches a flow of air to the POWER-WROUGHT metal gate, and it collapses.)<br />#3. The medallion DOES protect from Saidin. (Halima) Lightning IS indirect, as noted earlier by fennag05, (proof, book 2, Nynaeve's test for Accepted, first gate. She REDIRECTS, not blocks-his-and-makes-one-of-her-own. That says that the forsaken had aimed it at her, and she moved the gun(lightning) barrel the other way. The part involving channeling is the targeting, not the creation.<br />ummm...... I can't think of anything else... I'll post if I think of something. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-21 12:24:31
subject: <b>mats amulet does grant him imunity to saidin</b>
body:
the lightning blast that hit/killed mat at the end of FoH was an indirect affect of channeling, not made of saidin/the one power. therefore the gholam is immune to saidin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-20 06:23:38
subject: <b>Mat was NOT killed by Saidin!!!</b>
body:
The medallion IS proof against both Saidar and Saidin AS LONG AS the weave is directed at its wearer!<br /><br />I don't have the page open right now, but weren't Mat, Aviendha and a lot of Wise Ones and Aiel killed when the WALL THEY WERE STANDING UNDER COLLAPSED DUE TO A BLAST thereby CRUSHING THEM...????????? They (none of them) were killed by a weave but by the wall tearing down onto them as trollocs poured forth from the break in the wall - am I remembering correctly here?


created: 2006-04-16 21:07:25
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
Does anybody who watches the anime Dragonball Z remember the cell games? for those who don't have a clue what i'm on about, Cell is a monster who wants to kill the main characters and destroy the planet earth. he is super strong and can regenerate his complete body so long as a single cell remains. The way he was destrayed was by making an explosion so fierce and hot that every cell in his body was desintegrated so he could not regenerate.<br />I reckon this would work for the gholam too. we have seen that it heals miraculously but would it heal if it was dismembered or decapatated? destroying every remnant of the beast by mixing the one power and aludras fireworks you could make something hot enough to evaporating every last drop of its being i believe would work. scientifaclly there has to be a central nervous centre for any living being to live. if it is not possible to destroy the CNC than the next option would be to seperate its body from the CNC so that its body could not receive any signals in through the nervous system. starving it, i imagine, would work for sure because of its need to feed, but howon earth do u starve something like that? it can slip through cracks in brickwork and under doors! locking it in a stasus box again would do nothing but lock it up. once it is opened again the gholam would still be alive. do we know if the gholam can swim? its weekness could be water... maybe. i think what the gholam may be is a living sespool of deseased bacteria. as we know mat's SILVER medalion harmed it and as we should all know from history silver has anticeptic properties. it was common to use silver pins to hold wounds together in battle until they could be tended to properly. As we know bacteria needs to feed like the gholam and many diseases thrive in our blood, like the gholam. im just realising how rediculous this sounds, but it does supply a valid point as to why mat's medallion hurt it.


created: 2006-06-17 09:37:26
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Well, we know that Mat's medallion does block saidin (Aran'gar tried to channel at him in Salidar, after he turned up to 'rescue' Elayne), so I think we can assume that the gholam is immune to it too.<br /><br />I'd say that the best bet is probably an indirect attack with the Power, like hitting it with lightning, or closing a gateway on it.<br /><br />(Incidentally, it's been mentioned that Shadowspawn can't survive travelling - presumably this extends to gholams?)


created: 2001-06-11 04:36:17
subject: <b>well....?</b>
body:
All of your points were nice but on one hand i think you forget that rand and the forsaken are special cases.  Beside the windfinders both of mats sisters and half the girls of Emonds field are able to channel or be taught.  I think that if the DO can plop your soul into a new body he can make sure it works right or not i.e.(Cyanide Or whatever Lanfears new name is, we can't know for sure until MOiraine shows up full strenght or shut down.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 23:26:07
subject: <b>genetic link to channeling</b>
body:
I think the genetic link to channeling became obvious when it became apparent that the ability to channel was being 'culled' out of humanity by the Red Ajah's actions. The diminishing size of the WT's novice population, despite the repopulation of the world and increasingly good ways to search out new novices, makes this extremely likely.<br /><br />It may not be RJ's explicit plan, but I would say there are several genes that code for channeling (heck, we've got several for hair color and eye color, why not channeling ability?). Obviously they're sex-chromosome linked (although Aran'gar's obvious weirdness stands out; I think her ability was transferred directly by the DO. Transgendered Forsaken, anyone?), and one set may control the ability to be taught, the other (or both being present) the spark present inborn. The number of genes turned on would help determine your strength.<br /><br />LTT


created: 2001-10-09 01:08:52
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
I don't think channeling is really sex linked (if it is a genetic trait).  It wouldn't work (try a pedigree).  It may be sex influenced though.  <br /><br />It's definitely a recessive trait, but I think we'll receive confirmation once Elayne and Aviendha start popping out Rand's babies &lt;BG&gt;.  If this theory is true, all their children should be able to channel.  It will also be interesting to see how Gawyn and Egwene work out.<br /><br />Dont' forget Morgase was able to channel, if only a little and Rand is from the same family tree (more or less), increasing the chances.  Come to think of it, maybe Thom and Moiraine as well...


created: 2002-01-11 08:01:08
subject: <b>I agree with the Soul - Channeling theory.</b>
body:
I agree with Damien here,<br /><br />* - Just had a clear thought,...the genetics affect a person ability to channel (in someway or another), unless the pattern chooses otherwise, in which case anything goes, and that's just how the pattern works.<br /><br />the biggest question about the genetic side is that if it is genetic why now are there so many more channelers being found than in any recent memory.<br /><br />The shear (sp?) number of male channelers leads me to believe that channeling is related to the soul and has no genetic link, or perhaps it has a slight genetic link but nothing compared to the patterns need to spin out many/many male channelers, due to TG approaching.<br /><br />To use a different theory to back up Damiens, look at the Olver = 'thingum Cain' theories, &quot;he's too old the be him it doesn't make sense&quot; , but the tel' aran re-odd explanations with time fixed that problem (time has no meaning is the general gist of it).<br /><br />To me this says that the pattern will spin out what is needed as and when, so after centuries of the Reds killing/stilling any male channeler they can find the pattern all of a sudden starts chucking out thousands of males that can channel.* Women are affected in a simlar way, reduced abilty over time then along come a load of people who have lots of it.<br /><br />I've lost interest in writing this now<br /><br /><br />(the overly complex and similar spelling the terms used in this series has now reached the point where I refuse to expand my vocab constantly.  I apologise if my incorrect spelling aggravates any of you but checking the spelling of every word will waste my time)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 15:24:06
subject: <b>culling</b>
body:
I used to agree with the idea of culling the trait out of humanity...until the books around Crown of Swords.  The sheer numbers of the Kin speaks against the culling, and the number of Male Channelers in the Black Tower...far more than anyone thought possible also speaks against it.  The Sea Folk and the Aiel don't really count because they aren't part of the same gene pool.  I think that part of channeling comes from genetics, but the White Tower would likely be more powerful if it did not boot so many (of great power) out of the Tower.


created: 2002-06-26 18:32:26
subject: <b>The Guide</b>
body:
Hey, I thought all you people were WoT fanatics or something, surely such people would have read the guide. But it seems that many of you have not, the guide specifically states that channelling is genetic.  The reason that the ability rarely is passed on generation to generation is that it is a recessive gene.<br /><br />I hope this clears up any confusion.<br /><br />Shadar Aman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Shadow Dragon, or Dragon's Shadow? You tell me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />He Who Bathes With Twilight<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />Watcher of the Sea Lions<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 04:44:21
subject: <b>as for the resurection of forsaken</b>
body:
the channeling does not come from their body, Halima can channel saidin, for instance.  rather it is carried by the persons soul or spirit or whatever you choose to call it.


created: 2001-06-17 14:52:10
subject: <b>Very good, BUT...</b>
body:
If the Creator was all powerful, then he would have been able to create the Pattern in such a way as for him to be able to touch it without it self-desctructing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-27 09:47:45
subject: <b>Another point...</b>
body:
is that if the Creator is infinitely powerful, what makes us think that we would understand his methods, let alone his plan for the WOT?  After all, we are mere mortals guessing at an infintely powerful god's plans.  Just my HO.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Loki <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> A Wily Fox <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 18:04:45
subject: <b>Infinite Power does not mean u have to use it</b>
body:
I agree that the Creator is infinitly powerful. But to those that say that if he was infinitely powerful, the prison should not have broken, I have this to say. Just because you may be infinitely powerful, does not mean you have to use it all. It's like a car. You may have a V8 engine, but that does not mean that you have to always use all of that power. Likewise, maybe the creator did not want to use such an extreme amount of power that it would be overkill. Maybe he just wanted to do the bare minimum and knew that is what it would take. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />That's my rant. Thank you<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 16:47:27
subject: <b>Damn...</b>
body:
This is exactly what I have been thinking.  I also have a little bit of a theory on why humans could breach something created with infinite power, but Ill get into that later.<br /><br />Shamshaidar M'hael<br />'leader of the desroyers of shadow' <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />...heh heh heh...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-05 10:30:27
subject: <b>DOs Prison: Made by Creator?</b>
body:
It's a good theory, even though I don't think the Creator was the one to build the DOs prison.<br />An simple explanation to why the Creator doesn't intefere<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 23:29:10
subject: <b>Uh Oh... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Poor Rand.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 23:28:33
subject: <b>or, post-WH...</b>
body:
Not so poor Rand. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />LTT (we should all have such problems)


created: 2001-08-23 08:13:53
subject: <b>3 wives? Can Rand handle that?</b>
body:
I woudn`t like Rand to die just so he didn`t have to dicide who he wantet to be with. It worked so far with 3 girlfriends why not with 3 wives. It is only Elanye that have had any problem with that and not much.


created: 2002-02-26 16:32:21
subject: <b>Ick</b>
body:
I hope the women don't force him to choose, icky. Oh well, they'll probably do the sisterwife thing, at least I hope they do. Hmmm... Will they be the mother to all of the children, even the ones they didn't give birth to? And if so, would the all have special names, like.... oh never mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smiter of cornflakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Legolas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sporks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The one and only BogDog <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 13:23:31
subject: <b>He can do whatever he wants.</b>
body:
I think there are alot weirder things in tWoT then Rand getting to marry 3 women. <br /><br />Plus whos gonna tell him he can't marry them all?  would you?


created: 2002-06-23 23:49:08
subject: <b>Rand will have them all</b>
body:
Rand will not have to choose between them, he will have them all.  He did not really want to get married to only Aviendha in the Far Snows because he loves all three.  I can not see that changing enough for him to pick one. Besides if he picked either Aviendha or Elayne he would have to marry the other because they are first-sisters. <br /><br />Min's first viewing of Elayne was that she would share her husband with two others and unless you think that Elayne will marry someone other than Rand, it means Rand will get all of his girls.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-03-30 02:09:47
subject: <b>The 3 women</b>
body:
This prophecy/viewing reminds me of the Arthurian Legend...when Arthur Died 3 women came to take his body to Avalon. I forget which 3 women...but anyways...Rand will die, but he's gonna come back. And he's gonna live happily with all 3 women. He'll have to split his time between Andor(Elayne will have a country to rule), the Waste(Aviendha's honor demands that she tend the Aiel) and another home(where Min will be staying)...but I think it'll be easy considering that he can travel!!!


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Greandal is not the stranger</b>
body:
Ask yourself this: How many women can lift a big guy like Rand by his wrist?<p>Not many women can and the ones who can are not the kind of women that populate WoT. Now mayby a Maiden can do it but it would have to be a small guy and a relly strong Maiden.</p><p>Now she could not have used the One Power since he would have felt it, of course it could have been the True Power but then he would have felt it (the touch of the power vs the touch from another human is not the same)</p><p>/Marcus<br /></p>


created: 2002-07-09 11:11:19
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
You implied that Moridin (Ishamael) would have some supreme hatred for Rand, whereas Graendal wouldn't but. But if you go back and read the prologue to tEotW then the wanderer seems to act alot like Ishamael did.


created: 2002-08-06 16:08:39
subject: <b>The Meeting after...</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a meeting after that incident with the remaining Forsaken, to include Graendal.  Everyone is wondering about Sammuel, at which time Moridin strolls in to inform them of Sammuel's fate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where are all the dead?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br />If it hurts too much, make it hurt someone else instead.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 13:29:55
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
Um if it was Graendal Rand WOULD have felt it. Men can sense a woman channelning. That means it wasn't saidar or saidin being channeled. That leaves the one power. The description physically matches Morridin perfectly.


created: 2003-06-13 14:53:55
subject: <b>THANK YOU</b>
body:
At long last I have found an ally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-02 22:24:06
subject: <b>Rand might not've felt it...</b>
body:
Think about it. The only signs of a female channeling are a prickling on the skin- usually clear enough. However, if he's distracted by hurling balefire and lightning slashing down all around him, would he really notice prickles on his skin? He might well just attribute them to the close proximity of the lightning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud president of the Society of People Who Make Up Societies And Pretend To Be The President Of Said Societies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> People put WAY too many smileys in their sigs... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 17:09:49
subject: <b>agreement on goosebumps</b>
body:
Ok I agree that amidst the evil of Shadar Logoth, the lightning blasts, the floor crumbling, and seeing a blanket of of Mashadar descending over you that the sensation of a tingling of the skin could very well go unnoticed.<br /><br />I'll even concede so far to say that a female channeler could somehow be strong enough to pull Rand up using just one hand, though it is a stretch.<br /><br />However, we know that Mask of Mirrors works best when the Illusion stays close to the original body.  We also know that MoM does not hold up to close scrutiny (like touching).  <br /><br />Therefore I am not buying the story that a female channeler (Graendal in this theory's case) used MoM to make herself look like a man, then somehow Rand just didn't notice something wrong with her disguise when he was helped up.  Rand doesn't even know what any of the female Chosen look like, so wouldn't it have been easier for one of them (if it was one of them) to use Illusion to just slightly change her appearance?<br /><br />Nope.  The Wanderer was Moridin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-25 21:02:03
subject: <b>Again...nope</b>
body:
Moridin is concentrating on seeing Sammael dead so that he doesn't have any competition for Nae'blis. You'll also recall that he regards Rand as The Fisher in his campy little board game.....


created: 2001-06-23 23:34:42
subject: <b>I know the balefire weaves!!!</b>
body:
Air and Fire!  No, wait..Damn, those are the little red wires, never mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 20:01:21
subject: <b>All??</b>
body:
The weave of balefire is supposed to be really difficult I would think it would have all the elements.  oh well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Sedia<br />Time doesn't stop... it's so sad.  <br />Mob Mistress to Lord Escobar, Dirty Mob Doctor<br />The bonded/bondee of The Dirty Escobar as well.<br /><br />Taters??  What's taters?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 23:32:05
subject: <b>balefire requires all 5 elements</b>
body:
I believe this is explicitly stated by Moiraine somewhere in her early usage of it, but I could be mistaken. However this is consistent with the most difficult weaves (i.e. true Healing, not that pitiful stuff modern Yellow Ajah do).<br /><br />LTT


created: 2001-08-19 21:38:39
subject: <b>Check out the game</b>
body:
In the WoT game (which RJ has a ton to do with) Balefire is marked as using Spirit in the weave.  In fact, the weave looks blue when used.  If you doubt my claim that RJ had anything to do with it, check out the website and read the FAQ<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 19:39:24
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I think it would be Fire, Water and Spirit. Fire and Spirit for obvious reasons, and Water since it has always been described as somewhat liquidy.<br />Also, Fire and Water would balance out the male/female stuff, since each gender would have a Power in it that was strong for that sex.


created: 2001-10-21 21:03:23
subject: <b>The powers of Balefire</b>
body:
Included with the Wot game is a poster. On one side is the list of ter'angreal in the game, your Aes Sedai is too weak to do anything with out ter'angreal.<br /><br />I will now quote from the Balefire ter'angreal:<br /><br />&quot;4. BALEFIRE <b>effect:</b>  Baldfire launches a stream of light whichtravels through everything, even through ewalls. Anything the light touches is loosened from the timeline. Most objects and victims disappear as if they never existed, although cuendillar seals are impervious to this effect. ... <b>elements:</b> Fire,Air&quot;<br /><br />In conclusion balefire is made of air and fire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Zeddicus<br />zedd@wotmania.com<br />&quot;Life is a dream.  All dreams must end.&quot;<br />&quot;The last embrace of the mother welcome you home.&quot;<br /><br />If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 20:20:39
subject: <b>The Wheel of Time RPG says all five</b>
body:
The Wheel of TIme RPG says that balefire uses all five elements, but I'm not sure how much influent Robert Jordan actually had in it's writing


created: 2003-03-29 15:51:22
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Here are the reasons for all of the powers beeing used:<br /><br />Spirit: Because it screws with the pattern. That would need some serious spirit energy to do<br />Fire: Because it's fiery and hot (I think) and stuff<br />Air: Cuz it flies through the air. MAybe not a good reason, but anyway...<br />Water: Cuz it's liquid<br />Earth: ...for good measure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-01 12:22:33
subject: <b>All 5...</b>
body:
I have the WoT RPG book and it lists Balefire as using all 5 of the powers...call me crazy...but I'll take that as an answer any day...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to blind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />Snakes and Foxes</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-17 10:15:19
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Well, balefire certainly includes Fire and Air, along with some others - in the fight with Sammael, he starts to make balefire, changes his mind, removes all the flows except Fire and Air, and uses those to copy Sammael's &quot;laser wire&quot; attack.<br /><br />The exact phrasing, as far as I can recall, was &quot;he let every flow but Fire and Air fall away&quot;.<br /><br />Spirit is presumably required too - it seems to be used for anything that fiddles with the Pattern, like travelling.


created: 2001-07-31 18:48:54
subject: <b>well wotmania</b>
body:
if the last books turn out rubbish (YEA RIGHT ) this site is going to seem like a really long waste of time !!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 09:34:27
subject: <b>Oh yeah...</b>
body:
One can imagine Jordan, after writing one of these subtleties, leaning back in his chair and going &quot;Heh heh heh... LIGHT, I'm good at this.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Patternweaver fan-club member<br /><br />Rule? You better believe I do.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 16:19:49
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
&lt;Bitterly muttering in a corner with my arms crossed&gt;<br /><br />&quot;Maybe I should include 'This is an extraordinary website' in all of my theories... then they'd actually get posted...<br /><br />By the way, author of this theory, good job kissing both wotmania and Robert Jordan's rear ends. That's a surefire way to get a theory posted, isn't it?<br /><br />God, I hate brownosers... Stupid little...&quot;<br /><br />&lt;ramble on incoherently&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 10:45:43
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Actually, I think the pigeon and the hawk had something totally diferent.  First, with a town being nearby, there is a good chance that this pigeon was actually carrying some information.  Also, well, you know how Faile loves to try and spy for her husband, and well, she also goes Hawking a lot, you know, the sport.  So, what better thing to hawk than pigeons flying around carrying information, either to slow the flow of info, or to get some more...


created: 2003-05-25 20:01:14
subject: <b>or..</b>
body:
It could be refering to Valda. And the other pigeon Nial. Not saying i think that's what it is (Nial's hardly a pigeon if Valda's a hawk). Just putting another option out there. But job job on noticing that. Seeing that would be like seeing a monkey riding a unicycle down the street, you just don't see that kind of thing much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 01:46:29
subject: <b>See what our obestions have led too?</b>
body:
I mean come on. Yes they all make sense, but we spend way too much time figureing these things out. Kinda creepy. Whats gonna happen when the series is finished?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-16 17:28:20
subject: <b>Re: Sidhe</b>
body:
Brilliant... weren't the girls hawking anyway?<br /><br />I don't agree with teh theory post. That a hawk took a pigeon is just one scrap of information that doesn't end up where it should. However, if someone actually sent the hawk... Then it's not just information getting lost, but ending up in &quot;the wrong hands&quot;<br /><br /><br />...and Faile's just the type of gal who'd find this use for a sport. &quot;Spying is a wife's duty&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-01 18:30:44
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
when i read it i thought of berelain (the hawk min saw). and it could be meaning she will chase after two pigeons (perrin and galad [probably the man in white min saw]) and one will escape. lets hope its perrin. hes too cool for berelain.<br /><br />actually i just now made all that crap up, but it seems to fit, doesnt it?


created: 2005-12-28 15:17:36
subject: <b>lots of forshadowing</b>
body:
it seems that RJ uses a lot of forshadowing and visual imagery to move his stories along. <br /><br />This theory is just plain excellent.<br /><br />We live in a visual society (with most of us raise on visual media; television, movies photography).  so we tend to miss much of what's going on.  He (RJ) writes like a gleeman spining tales.<br /><br />if you can catch what's going on i believe you can figure what is going to happen in the storyline<br /><br />praise GOD for visual daydreamers with the ability to communicate their thoughts<br />


created: 2006-04-09 17:10:38
subject: <b>Not quite</b>
body:
to EvilJawa101 <br /><br />When the series ends we will still obsess because RJ said he's going to leave some loose threads.<br /><br />to nettles<br /><br />If it was Berelain as the hawk galad would have been a dove. it looks pretty and it's white and reperesents good things but the real birds peck and bite a lot if they aren't trained. Perrin isn't a pigeon either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-19 12:44:16
subject: <b>umm this seems kinda obvious but isnt berelain gonna be the hawk</b>
body:
lookin through quickly i didnt see anyone mention berelain. Not only is she some distant descendant of hawkwing her emblem the hawk of mayen not to mention all the references to a hawk in ins viewings that can be no one other that berelain. <br />surely it will be berelain doing something with pigeons to try and gain favour with perrin or something


created: 2009-04-01 08:10:17
subject: <b>ive seen it two times</b>
body:
I have seen this happen ttwo times one  time in jamestown ny and another on the seneca res , also in upstate ny. It is pretty cool and startles the crap out of you.I to like the way that RJ uses animals for prophetic forshadoows  in his stories. I cant wait for TG!


created: 2001-09-07 09:56:13
subject: <b>Daughter</b>
body:
The daughter of the nine moons isn't the empress, but the empress's daughter!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 13:30:35
subject: <b>DotNM</b>
body:
We now know that the DotNM is Tuon, the daughter of the Seanchan Empress (May she live forever) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-20 17:10:18
subject: <b>Gaidal Cain</b>
body:
Yeah, Uno is definitely not Gaidal Cain.  WAY too old.  But what about Mat's little orphan buddy, Olver?  He's ugly.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-02 02:42:45
subject: <b>Good try</b>
body:
Good theory, however WH shows us that the daughter of the nine moons is Tuon, one of the Empresses children, not the Empress, and Olver is Gaidal Cain. He is ugly, and Min sees Birgitte connected to a man older than her (Tel'aran'rhiod Gaidal), and an ugly man much younger than her (Gaidal/Olver). Plus Birgitte says being ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod will mean that she will be old enough to be Gaidal's mother, and she does have an affinity for Olver.


created: 2001-06-23 23:37:48
subject: <b>Gawyn's choice</b>
body:
Gawyn'll definately go with Egwene.  He loves her, remember?  And he's not Galad, even if he thinks it might possibly be wrong, he'll still help Egwene.<br /><br />That was a no-brainer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 08:54:23
subject: <b>I agree on all but one part</b>
body:
Like the title says, only one thing is wrong with your theory and that's the fact that Taim isn't Demandred.  It's all been settled in Winter's Heart, the rest of it though sounds accurate.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 01:56:43
subject: <b>RE: Elaidas second foretelling</b>
body:
I don't think Gawyns choice will be between Elaida and Egwene.  That is a fool choice.  But what about between Egwene and Elayne.  IT looks like both of them are going to be involved in a major war at the same time, who will he help?


created: 2003-01-17 01:20:53
subject: <b>that one is wierd</b>
body:
I always regarded that foretelling as kind of wierd. Moslty because it seems to much in conjunction with Elaidas personal goals and the fact that she has to much control of it. It just seems wierd. I always thought that the foretelling didn't come in such a controlled manner and that it was impossible to control them that way. Compare it to Nicolas foretelling and you'll understand what I mean.<br />As for Logain, he seems like basically a good guy so... Why not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 18:18:31
subject: <b>The Tower??</b>
body:
I have a different interpretation of the following... '&quot;The Tower shall be whole.&quot; Self explanatory. The White Tower will be whole once more. '<br /><br />I think &quot;The Tower shall be whole&quot;, signifies a new tower... both male and female Aes Sedai...<br /><br />just a thought...<br />


created: 2003-02-23 15:59:34
subject: <b>this also</b>
body:
...adds another element to the ruling house of andor being the key to the last battle in eladia's foretelling.  it doesn't just have to mean tigraine, you know, it can have more than one....so if gawyn has to choose, and his choice determines the victor, and rand will cooperate with egwene's faction to some extent, his choice could well be vital.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If I lived in the WoT universe, I would be the a HUGE Rock Star. My sign - a black anarchy symbol, crossed with a red guitar, neck to the left, on a field of white. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> of the WORLD<br />bard to the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-17 18:20:04
subject: <b>DEFINITION OF TOWER</b>
body:
Tower - place in which Aes Sedai congregate.<br /><br />Look, I don't know who told you that the &quot;Tower being made whole again&quot; referred to the White Tower, the White Tower, and only the White Tower, but I'm getting pretty po'ed at people who assume it means that. There is a Black Tower. Ever thought of that breaking in two? Or maybe, if we are imaginative (heaven forbid!) we could come up with the theory that, since Elaida didn't say &quot;White Tower,&quot; it means the Tower from the Age of Legends will be recreated. Not the White Tower. Not the Black Tower. Just the Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>The problem</b>
body:
Isn't there something about how, if you die in Tel'whatever, you die permanantly.  If this is so, then how could some of the Forsaken be resurrected?


created: 2001-07-28 23:37:25
subject: <b>death in T'a'r</b>
body:
I believe the comment (by Hopper and other lesser beings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) is &quot;If you are wounded here, you are wounded in the real world. If you die here, you do not wake.&quot; DO resurrection does not factor into this, because most people are unaware that it exists as of yet. (Surprisingly).<br /><br />LTT<br />


created: 2001-08-08 16:21:28
subject: <b>I think Pat is refering to</b>
body:
Hopper's comment to Perrin something to the effect of when a wolf dies in the wolf dream(T'A'R) they die permanently, which makes sense since they only exist there in spirit, so it's like killing the soul.<br /><br />This doesn't apply to humans, at least death in T'A'R is not the total destruction of a person's soul, except maybe the heroes bound to the wheel, if you were able to kill one of them in T'A'R.<br /><br />I don't know if I agree with the original theory much, I don't think that Rand will literally have to face the DO, it seems more likely that he'll fight Moridin and then have to re-seal the DO's prison, or possibly make a new one.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 07:03:38
subject: <b>Moot point</b>
body:
Well, considering that lame kiddo got on his knees and did it, the point is mute <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />however, even if it wasn't done, asking about removing the taint is a bit close to the shadows for the foxes and snakes liking<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">yadda yadda important stuff and all that, Am I done now?<br /><br />'Semper in Angaria'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 09:30:24
subject: <b>the tower of ghenji a gateway</b>
body:
we know that mins viewings always come true correct?<br />we also know that moraine HAS to be there at the last battle to help rand but the doorway to the aelfinn(i think that's right?) was destroyed so if she still lives she can't get out that way. so what is left? she either would have to make a deal with the aelfinn(doubtful) or find another gateway. jordan doesn't mention things that aren't of import more then once and he mentions the tower several times AND says what it does(ie a gateway to the eelfinn and aelfinn) so even if difficult to navigate it is still a gateway and what else would moraine be doing all this time? probably trying to get out. i think she will return through the tower and show up at the last minute OR watch from the shadows until the last minute after returning


created: 2002-05-16 20:17:22
subject: <b>do your reading</b>
body:
It says that any things that are mentioned that touch the shadow have dangerous effects, and may even kill you.  I'm not sure, but I htink the taint touches the shadow.(lol)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 13:09:54
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
Rand already flamin cleansed saidin in the flamin book winters heart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 02:22:54
subject: <b>Read the flamin' book</b>
body:
Rand already cleansed saidin... why ask the Eelfinn.... Just goto Finnland...get Moiraine... and get the hell out...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Semirhage Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine SuperFan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Lan Inspector <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve lover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve's most devoted, loyal, and spazmastic fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Nynessa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 10:04:14
subject: <b>No, I doubt it</b>
body:
<font color="olive"><i><b><u>No, I doubt it.</u></b></i></font><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-07 17:25:04
subject: <b>Aelfinn and Eelfinn</b>
body:
Hmmm.... interesting.... Well, I've got news for you.  Saidin has been cleansed!<br /><br /><br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.<br /><br />It's time to toss the dice.<br />


created: 2006-08-06 19:11:04
subject: <b>theory</b>
body:
k i have one reason why this theory couldnt work. first off, youy have to be physically close to it, as well as mentally. you could say that he is close to it, but in fact he would be a universe apart. so hah.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Paco51</b>
body:
to disagree with WoTmania Shaidar Hararn said he needed to sever the link with Shayol Ghul not the Dark One.  And if the Dark One is bound in Shayol Ghul and the seals are weakening it would stand to reason he would be able to  move around but he would have to return periodicly, like Shaidar Haran.  He also would not have access to his full power, only some, meaning the amount Shaidar Haran has.


created: 2001-06-20 21:25:49
subject: <b>Bela vs. Shaidar Haran?</b>
body:
So if the DO is Shaidar Haran, why can't the Creator be Bela? I mean, let's face it, the Last Battle could be pretty neat if it came down to a horse and uber-Myrdraal tossing down. Don't you think?


created: 2001-08-05 12:28:17
subject: <b>Can SH Channel the TRUE power ???????</b>
body:
maybe i`m wrong but i always thought that just as people ( evolved ???) the ability to channel, then Shadar Harran is the first myrrdral to (evolve???) the ability to channel the TRUE power ( the black flames !!! on the spear !!! )thats how he can block channellers<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 11:23:51
subject: <b>Is the DO? I don't think so...</b>
body:
I like the idea, but I think it's a little off.  I'd say Shaidar Haran is either the DO's avatar, or maybe a myddraal that has been posssessed by the DO.  I don't believe the DO has ever actually phyisically made his way into the world, just like I don't think the Creator has either.


created: 2002-02-07 13:21:03
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Where I'm not opposed to SH being his avatar, he cannot be the DO for one simple reason...even when the Bore was open, the Dark One could only touch the world, not enter it.  And now the seals would make it even more difficult...so SH can't be the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 14:53:38
subject: <b>The hand has been around</b>
body:
I think Shaidar Haran has been around since the first book, he just hasn't been singled out till LoC.<br />In the first book a Fade smiles when Intgar challenges him alone. One smiles at Whitebridge when<br />Thom attacks him and one smiles at the meeting of Darkfriends in the second book.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Halt here! Now! Else he'll channel your head <br />into your belly and feed you your own feet for breakfast<br /><br />Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Tai'shar Wardsville</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 21:04:42
subject: <b>He's a strange one.</b>
body:
The Spider noted that anyone trying to use the True Power in Shayol Ghul would be destroyed in the attempt.  Shaidar Haran was 'blocking' her at the time. So either he is the Dark One's avatar or the power is inherient in him.  He cannot be using the True Power the way a Forsaken would.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />Kaoslord<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Putting the 'K' back in Kaos<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 18:31:42
subject: <b>Reason he couldn't be the Dark One..</b>
body:
An avatar, possibly.. But still, Shai'tan is not of the Wheel.  He completely transcends the Pattern, as does the Creator.  But he's been bound away from it, so he can't jinx everything.  I really doubt he could incarnate himself as a being woven into the Pattern, but to be able to alter one of his minions, possibly bestow him with the ability to channel the True Power or simply enhance his present abilities, and contrl him personally.. That seems more likely.


created: 2002-10-07 21:24:35
subject: <b>Weeeelllllllllll.......</b>
body:
Although I think it would be really interesting (what a wicked plot twist!), but I don't believe it is possible for the DO to do that. Let's think Ocum's (sp?) Razor: SH claims he is the DO's left hand (half)man on the earth... Whom just happens to be able to channel the TS! Maybe a &quot;gift&quot; from the DO? Or maybe he's just a result of natural evolution? SH seems to be smarter than the your run-of-the-mill Fade. Remember the meeting of SH and Semy when she was questioning the Aes Sedai (I forgot which book - Possibly CoS?). <br /><br />Let's hope there's more clues in CoT!<br /><br /><br />~*Brandi Sedai*~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~Brandi Sedai~*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;A Cairhienin AND an Aes Sedai? There could be no worse combination.&quot; - Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 00:13:46
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I think SH is Moridin experiencing on of the effects of using the True Power too much. The reason SH can't stay away from Shayol Ghul for long is because Moridin is Nae'blis hence Hand of the Dark.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~TMM<br /><br />Commander of the Lemurs, Destroyer of Worlds<br /><br /><b><font color="red">This message was edited by 100 lemurs at 25:25:25 AM 13/39/3000</font></b><br /><br /><font color="red">Hail the lemurs. They know where you live.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 14:47:06
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I wondered that when SH first got involved...or was it when Mogheidian (sp?) was with SH and then Moridin or vice versa and they seemed to be, if not the same person, at least working together far more than any of the Forsaken normally would. I don't think SH is the DO, whatever Alviarin thought in CoT (you know, when she was with Mesaana?), but I reckon he might be someone put in a new body, or Ba'alzamon/Moridin, or...probably not, but maybe...someone's kid? by a Trolloc??? (heehee)


created: 2005-12-30 17:41:27
subject: <b>Myrddraal can't &quot;evolve&quot;</b>
body:
Evolution is connected to selective breeding, but myrddraal births are random, products of genetic throwbacks in trollocs, they are trollocs who's DNA is closer to their human bloodlines, then corrupted by the dark one, Shadar Haran could very well be a normal myrddraal infused by the true power, drawn directly from the dark one, his essence.  Thus it doesn't in fact &quot;channel&quot; but is actually containing a portion of the true power, a part of the dark one, who has forced out the &quot;soul&quot; of a myrddraal, and has replaced it with a small portion of his own essence.  This also explains saa, it is a physical representation of the dark ones essence within a being's body after channeling the True power.


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Cadsuane´s hair ornaments</b>
body:
I believe that it is stated in Winters Heart(i think it is in Far Medding and at Shador Logoth)that the hair ornaments is for telling where and when someone channels, both for saidin and saidar. <p>I think she had an angreal bracelet to but i´m not sure, I know she has angreal.<br /></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>to clarify</b>
body:
Actually Cadsuane has two ornaments in her hair, one is the tracker for channeling, the other is a well similar to the one that Nynaeve has. It was Nynaeve that had the bracelet angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>And what else?</b>
body:
We really have no way of knowing what else she has stuck in her hair along with the well, the "magic" detector, and a possible angreal. Maybe she has something that stops the True Power, and another which fits into the bore and can destroy the Dark One (but which requires a man channeling with the woman to operate) <img src="images/smile.gif" />


created: 2002-05-24 01:58:28
subject: <b>Storage device</b>
body:
Isn't one of them a storage device that would allow here to channel a small amount even inside a stedding?


created: 2003-11-13 14:35:46
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
It could be possible that this is what it is but I find it very improbable because such a terangreal would be difficult to keep a secret... I am sure it is not an every day thing for women to go chaneling at each other but there would have to be some point in Cadsuane's long life that someone unexpectedly chaneled at her and if this ter angreal were anything like mat's she would have to explain the profound effects away.<br /><br />Also, I noticed that the properties Mat's medalion kind of morphed a little in the more recent books.  It didn't used to not go cold just when someone chaneled near him but only when someone chaneled on him.  <br /><br />Mat never felt the medalion go cold untill the first time Moiriane tried to heal him after the dark hound attack dispite her and several other chanelers being around him for quite some time before that.  Even more convincing is that imediately before the fight with the gholem with the story being told form Mat's frame of view, the only way we knew that Nynaeve was batteling the 2 black ajah sisters from the effort on her face and she had to tell Mat that there was chaneling happening upstairs.  Yet now Mat's medalion is going cold all over the place just because women are chaneling near him.<br /><br />Oh well that last bit was just me going off about a bit of incongruency that I found in the more recent books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serack Doushi</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 12:01:41
subject: <b>Not the only one</b>
body:
Cadsuane is not the only one with a ter&#8217;angreal to counter channeling. <br /><br />Mat as we all know has one, it goes cool when someone is channeling or holding power near him, and dead cold when he is channeled at.<br /><br />Cadsuane also has one, as you have shown.<br /><br />But Nyaneve has one as well. Recall the day Rand cleansed the source; Nyaneve gave all of her ter&#8217;angreal and angreal to Alivia. She was patrolling when she came across Cyndane. Cyndane tried to kill her before she could react but the flows came apart just before they could touch Alivia.<br />


created: 2005-07-17 02:44:12
subject: <b>Types of Ornaments</b>
body:
in CoT paperback pg 637 it says<br />&quot;... feeling the golden ornaments hanging in her hair sway, moons and stars, birds and fish.&quot;<br />This shows that she has multiple ornaments in many shapes but doesn't tell what any of them do.<br /><br />In Cot pprbck pg 642 it says<br />&quot;None of her ornaments protected against ta'veren. Of course, she did not know what two of the fish and one of the moons did, but it seemed unlikely that they did that.&quot;<br />This shows one thing that her ornaments don't do and proves she doesn't even know what they all do.<br />In  Cot pprbck pg 643-644 it says<br />&quot;... the eight pointed star, like a golden compass rose, seemed to shift against cadsuane's hair. had it been held in her hand, she could have felt it vibrating clearly<br />...the star would not have pointed him out, merely told her that a man who could channel was nearby. the more men who could channel, the harder the star quivered.&quot;<br />This tells what one of the stars does and shows to what degree it works. it can only tell one is nearby not where he is.<br />In  Cot pprbck pg 647 it says<br />&quot;... that was an angreal, much stronger than cadsuane's shrike hair ornament. ....Ter'angreal and plainly made at the same time, during the breaking of the world.&quot;<br />This just says that one shaped like a shrike( i may be wrong but i think it is a bird) is an angreal and that her ornaments were made during the breaking.<br />In  Cot pprbck pg 645 it says<br />&quot;...Would have meant that Norla died in her little house in the black hills before cadsuane melaidhrin ever went to the white tower.&quot;<br />In  Cot pprbck pg 648 it says<br />&quot; ...  it might have been all those years ago, in the black hills, when she began earning the ornaments she wore now.&quot;<br />I also believe that in a previous book she mentions that just after she got the shawl she was out of the tower and got beat by a wilder. These two i believe show who the wilder was and obviously where the ornaments came from.<br />  On a side note i think it would make a very good story to read when norla and cadsuane met and how she earned the ornaments.


created: 2007-05-01 00:46:48
subject: <b>Cadsuane's Hair Ornament</b>
body:
couple the fact that we know the uses for her ter'angreal and that (as logic would dictate) that a ter'angreal that dissolved or canceled the flows would not allow flows to originate from the sight (the persons' body) of its 'protection', would make that theory nonsense<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When one person suffers from a delusion it is called 'insanity'; When many people suffer from a delusion it is called 'religion'</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 04:43:48
subject: <b>Callandor, Narishma, and Rand</b>
body:
Somewhere in teh books, it says that whoever pulled Callandor out after Rand stuck it in the Stone's floor would 'follow after' him. I think it's in the third book, after he does it. Anyway, Narishma pulled it, and therefore he will be the one to follow after. I don't know if anyone else has noticed that, but I did, and thought it noteworthy.<br />Also, He is bonded to Aviendha and Elayne, and therefore could use Callandor if he wanted to. I'm assuming that the one who did this theory hasn't yet read Winter's Heart, however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ninya Evoneigh<br />Aes Sedai Wanna-be <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> X)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-18 21:22:31
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
<br />No one has to be bonded.  Why do you people always say that such and such can bond such and such and thus use Callandor?  No bonding required.<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-26 22:51:42
subject: <b>No bond required</b>
body:
Correct, to wields challandor, a bond is not required. But linking is required, at the thought is that Asha'man do not trustyAes Sedai enough to allow them to control a link. By being bonded, though, the male channeler would have a greater comfort leve. I don;t know if they would be able to contrl thr flows through the link, but they would certainly know what the Aes Sedai were thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 22:25:28
subject: <b>No bond and no link required.</b>
body:
What brought about this idea that bonding and/or linking was necessary for a man to wield Callandor.  Have you all forgotten that Rand was neither bonded nor linked when he first used it to defeat Bal'azamon.  Now it might be that he is a special case, being the Dragon and all that but I would think that, with any sa'angreal, any man who can weild sufficient saidin should be able to wield it.  And since we know that Taim can handle almost as much saidin as Rand I would think that he makes atleast one man who can wield Callandor safely, atleast as safely as Rand.


created: 2005-06-25 03:33:50
subject: <b>no Aes Sedai are needed</b>
body:
The only reason that two Aes Sedai were needed was because Callandor somehow magnified the taint. Now that saidan isn't tainted the Aes Sedai aren't needed for it anymore.


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>WH</b>
body:
Ummmm.......  In WH the whole taint thing seems to be resolved.  I know there is debate over if it is really clean or not but still.


created: 2001-10-21 22:54:05
subject: <b>Well.....</b>
body:
Even if it wasn't resolved in WH,thats a little too similar to Star Wars: Dark Empire for my tastes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Daemisoth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Destroyer of Worlds <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-17 13:08:41
subject: <b>The bit about needing the Power to pure was right</b>
body:
Rand said in Winter's Heart that if he tried to make the conduit out of saidin, it would shatter when the taint was being drawn out.  This was why he needed to be linked to a woman, so he could make a conduit out of untainted Power that could filter the taint off of saidin without suffing the adverse consequences of taint removal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 15:40:21
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
the sa'sara wouldnt have been included without a reason<br />i wonder what for though. btw where does it say sevanna is a darkfriend??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 00:43:40
subject: <b>Well.. interesting post.. .but.....</b>
body:
Just one little thing....<br /><br />Maybe in this 'world' the Dark One has finite power at the moment, however, in his 'world' he may have infinite power.  We don't actually know where the Dark One is, we know he is outside the pattern.. so to speak.  So maybe though, when he gets in, he may assume infinite power.. who knows?<br /><br />Just a thought.  Otherwise, good arguement. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Belal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Resident cynic.<br />KIWI and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 23:54:21
subject: <b>Ha Ha Ha!</b>
body:
I could have lots of fun killing flies with cannons, being the twisted, sadistic person I am,  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />    but other than that, good theory.  Cool!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 03:48:35
subject: <b>It would seem</b>
body:
True, I agree with all but some wording and have a tad to add. The Dark One isn't actually &quot;in&quot; Shayol Ghul. He is outside the pattern, and being external to it, Shayol Ghul is the place where the pattern was weakest and could be bored to access his external power. We know that the creator isolated him outside it--perhaps actually trapped him of sorts if I remember correctly--but for all intents and purposes simply separated him from his creation. That leads us to one question, if the creator who stands for all that is pure and good is obviously stronger than the Dark One, why didn't he simply destroy him? We have the comment on cheating provided below the theory, but that is insufficient. Is it really cheating to eliminate as many ways of cheating as possible? Isn't it also correct to counteract any attempts at cheating? And here is the point, before the Dark One was accessed in the Age of Legends, people still did bad things. It was mostly a just society that worked well, but it was not perfect. Perfection is the reflectoin of a good, righteous god. Thus, the creator is not one such god. He was good enough to set the Dark One outside the pattern, but did not eliminate him. He isn't a righteous god, just a &quot;balanced&quot; god. Moreover, it seems part of their beliefs that the creator simply doesn't do things to help directly. Not why, not wherefore, simply doesn't do things to help. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills. In other words, the wheel is the resemblance of the creator's conscious, and the power is the resemblance of his power, but the creator is simply a force and not a being. The only evidence that convinces me otherwise is Shai'tan being portrayed as a being. I suppose the only alternative is that the creator has turned his attention away. I don't know why he would turn away from his creation, and perhaps he hasn't. The only reason they say the creator doesn't interfere is because of a belief that they are good enough (as so many people are arrogant enough to believe), but mainly that the creator never has as far as they know. A lot of the psychology and philosophy is taken straight from the real world. People believe things just because. A lot of people worship, but no one ever actually encounters. A lot of people wonder why there are so many problems and take it for the non-existence of a caring god, rather than a god with a plan. A lot of people are wrong.<br /><br />Too much disagreements over Robert Jordans masterpeice. We just have to wait and find out. And ask him for a book explaining all the little mysteries and how each foreshadowing worked. This is hard work isn't it?


created: 2001-09-27 16:05:34
subject: <b>is this really Loial?</b>
body:
i must admit that your powerful persuasion could rival even Loial's explanations in the sense that you brought a mutlitude of information to prove a simple point.  let's look at things from a different point of view.  i think we can all pretty much say that the good guys are gonna win this turning of the wheel?  yes?  good.  now, according to prophecy (created by people created by RJ--so technically created by RJ who in a chat calls himself the God of his world) all that is needed to win Tarmon Gaidon is for the Dragon to take a trip the his street corner's Shayol Ghul and cut his finger.  Still with me?  good!  Now, if all that is needed to defeat the DO is for Rand, a mortal with tons of power yet still significantly weaker than the DO, to face him on Shayol Ghul and spread a little blood around on the rocks, then the Dark guy just doesn't seem to be that big a deal.  so why would the Creator even think of mussing his hair for something so insignificant? let's face it, the Creator's good guys are enough, and that fact makes the DO significantly less powerful than the guy with the white beard!


created: 2001-10-17 06:38:22
subject: <b>a wild guess.</b>
body:
Im new here so i may be way off on this, but it may even be that there is some reason that the Creator can not help out. As it was in the The Chronicles of Thomas Covenat, the Creator of that world could not touch his world without destroying it. Perhapes the Creator is just to powerful, and if he were to take direct action the world would be destroyed. Perhapes he can not fine-tune his power enough to use it without destroying what he has created. Thus why the Dark One is outside the patern. Or perhapes if the Creator were to put his hand through the patern it would destroy it. It has been stated (i beileve)  that the Dark One intends to break the Wheel and remake the world in His image. So if the Creator were to take an active hand, perhapes he would break the wheel and destroy his creation. I dont know if this makes sence, for it is late and i am very very tired. this is just my thoughts on the matter  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vkandis, The Sun Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />The Prince of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br />The Angel of Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />JTHM <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br />The Hunter<br />Lord of Little things that go bump in the Night <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 10:12:28
subject: <b>The creator doesn't need to get off his butt.</b>
body:
Interesting theory and in answer to your title I would say that the creator won't get up off his butt cos he already knows the outcome. Ishamael was close to the mark when he said that the DO and Rand had been fighting over and over again. They have, just not in the way the Ishamael thought. Rand will fight the DO and win, ages will come and pass etc etc untill the age of legends comes around again and they set him free again and the whole thing starts over. I Even  suspect the DO is caught up in this whole loop not remembering when the bore is recreated that he's already done all this and lost. <br /><br />Question here is how does the DO fit in? Potentially the DO is a creation of the creator brought about by the creator's need for balance. Something to offset the good.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-24 15:42:07
subject: <b>Misleading Title, Great Post</b>
body:
You are wise in the ways of philosophy, my son.  Your explanation of why the Creator has to be more powerful because He can create, could have come straight from Plato, Plotinus, or Augustine.


created: 2002-05-11 22:20:36
subject: <b>kinda</b>
body:
Your kinda bloody right but i think that the creator is in another world so his power is weakened in Randland.In the great hunt the creator said to rand only the chosen one can do what must be done not here not here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 12:33:36
subject: <b>The Creator Isn't Just Standing Aside</b>
body:
I don'y think the Creator is just sitting on his/her proverbial ass.  If you look back to the end of the TEoTW, when Rand is watching the battle at Tarwin's Gap, a voice speaks to him.  I believe it was the Creator, and the &quot;chosen one&quot; mentioned is the Dragpon Reborn.  Granted, speaking to Rand isn't the same as putting a real hand in, but I think it proves that the Creator does care about the world.  Just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shaiel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Matthew Gaidin<br /><br />&quot;And in our honesty together we will rise<br />out of our nightminds and into the light<br />at the end of the fight&quot;.  <br />- missy higgins<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 02:25:59
subject: <b>I think ...</b>
body:
.. That the creators absence might be involved with the theory that after this series the world will be free of the pattern. If he gets involved he can't disengage himself, so his plan is to have the dark one involve himself than the dragon kills the dark one and time is free to continue without the wheel. of course this doesn't invalidate anyone else's ideas because so far people seem pretty accurate in my oppinion but I like to try and asses the motives. My post here is speculation but it fits well with established theories, and the story.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Caraman Gaiden<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-15 20:57:46
subject: <b>me too</b>
body:
ACTUALLY, I was thinking of Piers Anthony, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />great minds, huh?


created: 2002-11-22 11:14:07
subject: <b>It's Deism</b>
body:
Impressive theory!<br />  It seems to me that the Creator is a throwback to 18th century Deism.  He created an organic and very complex machine and then left it to fulfill its purpose.  The Dark One, as a parallel to Satan, is a creature.  He cannot create his own machine or even destroy the Creator's simply because he is a creation himself.  All he can hope to do is distort it, but even then any impact he might have is probably already accounted for in the Pattern.  The Creator, as the designer of the Pattern, has placed the DO in a specific role for a specific reason.  Although the DO is immortal, he is still part of the Pattern.  Only the Creator does not play a role in the Pattern - he is the only one truly outside of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My heart is a flame that flickers and shines<br />I dance in the wind of life</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 00:49:01
subject: <b>Why the Creator...</b>
body:
&quot;That leads us to one question, if the creator who stands for all that is pure and good is obviously stronger than the Dark One, why didn't he simply destroy him?&quot;<br /><br />The Creator doesn't destroy the DO because he is the Creator. He creates, he doesn't destroy.<br /><br />Why he created the DO, well as has been said, for balance. Without evil there would be no way of knowing what &quot;good&quot; is. Or perhaps some other reason, nobody (except RJ himself) can know for certain.


created: 2003-03-08 17:23:21
subject: <b>The DO is not weaker than the Creator</b>
body:
I get so tired of people saying that the DO is weaker than the Creator! RJ states clearly that the DO is the antithesis of the Creator - this means that the DO is the exact opposite in every respect (including strength) of the Creator.<br /><br />So, the reason that a mere mortal (the Dragon) can stand up to the DO is that the DO can not bring its (is the DO a sexed being?) full power to bear because it is partially imprisoned. Rand (especially with the Choedan Kal) can indeed hope to match the DO in power because he doesn't have to face the full power of the DO!<br /><br />I realize this doesn't say anything about why the Creator doesn't do anything, though. There is another theory that hypothesizes that the Creator didn't &quot;imprison&quot; (as in cage) the DO, but blocked the DO off from the created world. (This is the same theory that suggests - quite persuasively, I might add - that T'A'R is the wall between the DO and the created world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-08 00:26:34
subject: <b>The Creator Doesnt care</b>
body:
At the end of the Eye of the World, the Creator talks to Rand.  his (its?) conversation with Rand proved two things.  first, rand is not the creator (i've seen some people claim this because rand clensed saidin).  second the creator doesnt care.  the creator told rand that he would not stick his hand in the affairs of the world. it seems he is content with letting his creation run its corse and if destroys itself what prevents him from creating another world?  there is sort of a parallel link to another series, Animorphs, where there is also two powerful beings locked in a stuggle.  they both decide to leave the decision to their game at the will of the good guys and bad guys on earth.  the evil god wants to assure his power so he helps his minions, the good god has his power assured already and doesnt need anything.  in WoT the creator is ruler and can make what ever, the DO is just a conspiring backstabber whom needs to take over the makings of others<br /><br />alright enough of my rant


created: 2003-09-03 08:18:24
subject: <b>You assume to much,</b>
body:
Everyone here seems to think that the Creator has unlimited power...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-09 02:02:01
subject: <b>What if</b>
body:
The Creator is trapped just as much as the DO is? when he made his creation he found he couldnt access it. What if they were even the same person/thing? Maybe he's getting tired of his creation and wants to redo it.


created: 2005-02-10 22:53:45
subject: <b>This is mostly comments to what other people have said.</b>
body:
To Be'lal, you said the DO's power is limited inside the pattern. So maybe the Creator is just afraid of going down to the same playing field of the DO, making him vulnerable.<br /><br />To Silent Specter, The creator not have infinite power? if not him, who? i mean, SOMEone has to.<br /><br />To drakkusdiablo, also interesting. Maybe, as you said, the creator CANT get in, so has completely abandoned this pattern, and there is a eutopia type pattern 2.0 somewhere else. Instead of a Wheel of Time, there'd be a Triangle of Space. That'd be kinda cool... although this would be Tosmania.com<br /><br /><br />Ok, now for my response to the actual theory. You said that there are not any angelic type lightfriends. Maybe the creator made the true source for people to use it as 'light friends.' (S)he could have just not accounted for people to use it as something bad. so, if it has infinite power, then how couldn't it know? um... i dunno, someone make a theory on this. Maybe the creator just doesnt give, and made the whole pattern (and the DO?) to amuse himself while he has a tea party with his other creating friends. wow, that made no sense...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good theory, though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-17 10:29:48
subject: <b>Unconvinced</b>
body:
I'm going to address the points one at a time, and then make a couple of my own:<br /><br />1: The metaphysics here are very simplistic. The evocation of order ex nihilo, from the void, is not a necessarily higher-order force than the power of destruction and chaos. As Hegel said, every idea, order, and structure comes into being containing the seeds of its own eventual downfall; that is, death and finitude, the descent back into chaos, are an implicit and inevitable part of every Creation and Pattern, by virtue of existing in Time and having been called out of the void in the first place. The force of Creation could easily (and perhaps less speciously) be argued to be the weaker; while it is surely a great power to Create from nothing, the negating force that makes all creations transient and meaningless in the face of the long slide back into the void is more inevitable, and represents the true character of reality. In the limited context of the world of the Pattern, the two forces are precisely balanced, negating linear causality and allowing the recursive timeline to exist. <br /><br />2: The implication, I think, is never that the Dragonsoul ever directly *fights* the Dark One - and he certainly never wins. Remember, this is a closed loop. The DO is still around the next time the Wheel turns. What Rand, in this Age, is intended to do is mend the Bore and reseal the Dark One in his prison - the Pattern itself. The imposition of temporality, the weave of individuated lives, supported by the constant inflow of energy from the True Source, is what ultimately constrains the atemporal, irrational, entropic force of the DO. Rand's purpose is to knock the DO back into his cage and slam the door behind him.<br /><br />3: This is just fallacious. Shayol Ghul happens to be the focal point of the Bore, and the &quot;thin place in the Pattern&quot; that preceded it, and therefore where the force of the DO's touch is strongest-felt. It is not in itself the DO's prison, nor the 'site' of the Bore in the way that you imply it to be.<br /><br />4: The C&amp;DO both act through the world. The natural state of Randland *is* the Creator's alliances and armies. The untainted world that we take for granted is by nature biased in the favor of one side. The DO acts similarly in the world, but we think of it as different and more active and dependent because we are creatures of order and life, who fear the death and otherness the DO represents.<br /><br />The DO does not intervene anymore than the Creator does, really. Both act in their capacity - the Creator created Randland, set up the True Source to fuel it, and the closed causal loop of the Wheel and associated eigenplot of the Ages that form the Pattern to maintenance it. If we think of the C&amp;DO as smaller gods, rather than primal/essential manifestations of the forces of order and dissolution, then it may be that the Wheel-world was created specifically and solely to imprison the DO for as long as possible. There's a distinctly Lovecraftian sort of bent to this idea.<br /><br />Rand is clearly, prima facie even, an instrument of the Creator. His actions are *foreordained*. There is nothing natural about the cosmology of the Wheel-world...if anything bears out the transcendental importance of the DO, it is that the dominant, deterministic story of every Age, that shapes lives and prophecies events, revolves around the endless, eventually doomed struggle to keep him in his prison.


created: 2008-05-26 13:10:51
subject: <b>So I am late to the party.........</b>
body:
Well, that was a hell of a theory.  I like everything about it.  What I really wanted to do was touch on some of the comments you may have recieved about the Creator being somewhat of a neutral god. <br />First, Jordan shows that there is balance in WOT.  I believe that the Creator is stronger than the DO.  But in every fantasy story I have ever read, light is always stronger than dark.  Yoda tells Luke that the dark side is not stronger just quicker.  The balance is still there.<br />Second, in Judeo-Christian and just about every other religion, God is righteous and Satan evil.  A righteous God does not have to destroy evil completely, especially if he has allowed free will to dominate society.  Thus one can choose how to live ones life.  And remember that good things happen to bad people and vice versa.  <br />There may be those that do not suscribe to this, but I ask how can you appreciate good without bad.  To never know defeat may be wonderful.  But to those who lose and then succeed it is much sweeter.  Also you need to know the bitterness of defeat.


created: 2001-07-13 09:03:53
subject: <b>Jordan's religion...</b>
body:
I just think Jordan pulled one of his biblical allusions and once more put Rand on equal footing with Jesus...<br />I just would like to say that if Robert Jordan does a c.s. Lewis-thing, I do not stand by my own actions!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 17:45:43
subject: <b>Nope...sorry</b>
body:
&quot;Twice dawns the day&quot;....simple, my friends.  Total solar eclipse.  Throughout history and mythology, solar and lunar eclipses have played significant roles in major events.  Based on RJ's history of blending myths and legends from various cultures and belief systems, he's bound to throw in a solar eclipse.  The story wouldn't be complete without one!  Your binary theory is sound in fact, but not practical for the series.<br /><br />Erith<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />3MTA3<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 20:47:23
subject: <b>Heh...no.</b>
body:
First, our sun is not part of a binary star system.  There is no reputable astronomer on this planet that would suggest such a thing as the mathematics of orbital mechanics are simple, precise, and easy to verify.<br /><br />Second, I'm getting the feeling from reading the theories on this site that Mashadarman (and many others - but he is the author of this...idea) has a deep need to have things explained, and a sense of confidence in Robert Jordan's intellect and consistency that is not justified.  Reaching outside the books for explanations for the Wheel of Time &quot;universe&quot; is silly, with the possible exception of the rampant borrowing from mythology and legend that occurs in the books.  However, the vast majority of these are easy to identify, and don't require the kind of reaching seen in this...idea.  Can't call it a theory because theories are based on evidence.<br /><br />The books are good.  The story is interesting.  But not everything needs to be, or will be, explained.  Some characters do things for no other reason than to do them.  Some characters say things for no other reason than to say them.  Anyone hoping for one hundred percent internal closure in this series is going to be severely disappointed.  One possibility for the seeming lack of ending to any plot line is that Jordan is trying to do just such a thing.  If so, these books are going to get bad in a hurry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Discoverer of logical inconsistencies  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 10:35:34
subject: <b>yeah, right.</b>
body:
i'm sorry, but i don't think so. i don't think jordan thought that much about the rest of the plot. it's just a fantasy tale, remember?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 20:17:45
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
i guess it could happen.....but i doubt it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===========================<br />The cynics are right nine times out of ten.<br />HENRY MENCKEN<br />Funny how just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does.<br />DOUGLAS ADAMS<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I attempt to make everyone&#8217;s day a little happier. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 17:57:06
subject: <b>right....</b>
body:
If memory serves (and it might not, but i think it does) RJ came up with the story line in the 70's. I dont think they had that technology then.  Even if he did change it before writing in the early 90's, I dont think they had that theory then either.<br /><br />People with little ability for abstract thought make me puke.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-19 18:12:19
subject: <b>Very Crazy</b>
body:
May I point out that this is fantasy, not science?  This is very far out there.  Right field far out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 12:57:00
subject: <b>Ummm....</b>
body:
I don't think its going to be that complicated. Maybe it just means the Last Battle will be two days long.


created: 2004-01-05 23:39:35
subject: <b>To Egwene The Dreamer</b>
body:
Just because it's a fantasy tale doesn't mean that R.J. didn't plan out the whole plot ahead of time.  Which I'm sure he did to have connections like he does between all of the books.  You have to plan out a plot before you start writing, trust me I know you do.  If you don't you ramble on and loose your ending let alone consistency.


created: 2005-12-29 02:02:32
subject: <b>hey nice theory</b>
body:
It IS an interistingg theory, but no chance of it happening.  Im voting yes cause i've never heard of that space junk stuff before and i'd prefer this theory to the eclipse theories. Personally i support the dragonmount theory where the volcano erupts.  It makes more sense in  terms of the story in the book linking the death of the dragon and the triumph of the dragon reborn (or whatever)


created: 2007-03-05 18:39:55
subject: <b>Interesting theory.</b>
body:
I like the way that science was used in this theory, but I doubt it. This theory just isn't mystical/symbolic enough.


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nynaeve´s position in the last battle....</b>
body:
I wonder if even half of the people writing their theories have even read Winter´s heart, if you havent stop reading now.....<p></p><p>Nynaeve and Rand used the both sa´angreal when he was to cleanse saidin in the end of WH, the small tearangreal statue of the women then melted and is just a worthless piece of crap now.</p>


created: 2001-06-24 05:22:53
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
My sentiments exactly. Perhaps Elayne could restore the sa'angreal, and then we could talk about the theory in deatil... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 01:10:04
subject: <b>a point</b>
body:
If you'll notice, all of the posts that seem like nobody read Winter's Heart were posted 1/21/01 to 1/24/01 or so. EVERY ONE. There isn't a single one before the new year. Meaning, of course, that the site operators had to repost the old theories, including the pre Winter's Heart one's. So there you go. In any case, I believe Nynaeve will have a big part in the last battle, but MIn doesn't say it, she says she'll be important in the battle against the Dark One, and she already fulfilled that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 16:54:16
subject: <b>Yeah, and...</b>
body:
I agree with some other respondants that Nyn has already played her big role, but who's to say?  She might also be involved in Tarmon Gaidon in a similar role.  <br /><br />Now, problem with that is that the female Choedan Kal (CK)is now a melted useless thing.  But, Elayne could restore it so Nyn could use it again.(Elayne could restore it only with the help of a male channeler, of course; I firmly maintain that proper working terangreal, sangreal, or angreal need both men and women to make them).  <br /><br />Also, remember that there is another CK female access key- in the Panarch's palace in Tanchico.  Egwene saw it during her exploits in TAR in tSR.  It's broken, but maybe someone (Elayne) could fix it?<br /><br />Now, playing devil's advocate, we know now that Nyn is no longer the strongest female channeler in WOT World.  Remember in WH when she had to teach the Sea Folk Windfinders stuff?  Well, the little Sea Folk chick, I forget her name, the one who wants to go to the Tower, beat Nyn in a duel, hands down.  That makes her the strongest known non-forsaken female channeler.  And the Seanchan might have some really strong ones among their damane too.  But all that aside, I stil think that Nyn will the one to use the female CK (if it gets fixed) simply because Rand trusts her.<br /><br />Thoughts?<br /><br />~Eswana~


created: 2001-08-05 20:46:32
subject: <b>And Then....</b>
body:
I think that Nyn will be absolutely instrumental in the last battle and the reason is that her and Rand are tied together one-hundred percent now.<br /><br />If you haven't read WH PLEASE don't read further!!!!!<br /><br />I say this because of the bond between Rand and Nyn.  Not like a warder bond, let me explain.  Rand says from his first thoughts of the cleansing that he needs to talk to Nyn about it.  And then they finally do it.  The two of them together eliminated the most powerful work of the Dark One in 3000 years if not EVER.  That's not something that happens every day.  They were handling unheard of amounts of both side of the power with Rand directing the weaves.  So they trusted each other enough to handle enough of the power to do ANYTHING.  I think that that alone creates an unbreakable bond between them, much like when you share a traumatic experience with someone in your own life.  That and I believe that Nyn is the only person that Rand can absolutely trust.  Nyn is excited and greatful to be Aes Sedai, but I can't believe that she will not always try and protect Rand like she was still his wisdom.  Therefore I think Rand himself will make sure Nyn is a major player in the last battle.


created: 2001-12-04 17:47:23
subject: <b>Nynaeve Can't</b>
body:
I enjoyed your theroy BUT the key to the huge sa'angreal is destroyed when Nynaeve and Rand cleanse saidin (WH).  So, she can't use the Chodan Kale (I know, it's spelled incorrectly).  She also is no longer the strongest healer around; in WH the comment is made that several of the Kin and the Sea Folks are showing more skill at healing than she (and boy, is Nynaeve unhappy about that!).  Alivia is also stronger than Nynaeve.  I think she has played her big role in WH, but will be around for TG and certainly, Elayne intends to have her as her Aes Sedai advisor.


created: 2001-12-09 13:33:27
subject: <b>in defense of Nynaeve....</b>
body:
This is possibly wishful thinking, but I believe that channeling such huge amounts of saidar using the Choedan Kal has increased Nynaeve's strength. Actually, it wouldn't make much sense if her current strength was already her full strength, since it generally takes a long time for a channeler to reach his/her full potential. In New Spring, Moiraine has just been raised to Aes Sedai, we know that she has spent six years as a novice and Accepted, and she has not reached her full strength yet. Nynaeve has only been channeling for a few years (I don't think being a wilder would count as time for increasing your strength) so she should still be going to get stronger, and possibly be stronger than Talaan (the &quot;Sea Folk chick&quot; ) again. Therefore, it's quite possible that she still will have a big role in the Last Battle. Also, about the access keys, if two exist (the one Rand found and the one Elayne saw in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico) there's nothing to say there might not be more, which might *not* be broken.<br />OK, that's enough rambling for now...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 13:11:27
subject: <b>time</b>
body:
well, here is something that is way out in left feild.  what if the wheel of time is going around in the sameway.  it would like watching the same movie over and over again.  ok what i am getting at is what if the statue at tincho&lt;sp&gt; is the same one nym broke in WH?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />wondering around the wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-09 07:46:33
subject: <b>Of course not</b>
body:
Hey, I'll be the last person in all the world to put down my Nynster, but I have to second my opinion that she won't wield the Choedan Kal in TG. I know, I know, it's hard for me to accept too, but just because she's the coolest coolest character in the series, that isn't grounds enough to allow her to use the most powerful sa'angreal in the world. Close, but not quite. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Both Talaan and Alivia exceed her in raw power, and as some one else pointed out, she is also topped by others in her Healing. We have to face the fact that Nynny-poo is just second best now. Pile that on top of her losing her snappish attitude and Nynaeve is just digging a bigger hole of lame-o-ness for herself.<br /><br />The only thing she really has going for her is that oh-my-gawd-awesome sniff! What a dope-head! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />...<br /><br />I really strayed off the point there didn't I? -_-'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 17:16:00
subject: <b>Talaan(the sea-folk chick isn't stronger than Nynaeve)</b>
body:
I just finished Winter's Heart and if I remember correctly Talaan is almost as strong as Nynaeve. She has slightly less potential than Nynaeve. In the book it stresses SLIGHTLY. But slightly can make all the difference. Also, the Damane Alivia only knows how to kill. So she can't know even close to as much as Nynaeve, so she is more experienced. Sharina, the grandmother with more potential than Nynaeve, is not trained yet so Nynaeve is stronger for the moment. I am pretty sure that I read it correct.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> ..Graendal, she had many shades as a jegal had scales, slipping from one to another like lightning..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Proud Founder of &quot;The Chosen&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Everyone needs their Edgucation! A.24-M.24<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 03:27:16
subject: <b>Please correct me if I'm wrong...</b>
body:
but I think I remember reading or it having been implied somewhere (possibly the guide?) that there was more than one access key for each of the statues...it sounds a little implausable and the very existance would create some confounding variables, but I still think that is implied somewhere... =)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 20:24:30
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
It's true that Talaan is slightly less powerful than Nynaeve in the One Power, but I think I remember it saying and I quote Winter's Heart pgs 257-58 (I have a good memory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />) &quot;And Talaan matched her as closely as made no difference.&quot; Also, on page 258 it is stated, &quot;Light alone knew what her [Talaan's] potential was. ... She [Nynaeve] had no interest in knowning how much stronger than she a Sea Folk girl was going to be.&quot;<br /><br />There's nothing to say that Talaan's potential is any less than Nynaeve's and since she is 19 and Nynaeve is 26, then I'd say Talaan will end up being a whole damn lot more powerful than Nyny-poo. <br /><br />Oh, and one other thing, although it's also true that Alivia only knows how to kill, what else would she need to do? It was stated somewhere (perhaps in Book Six when they are in Salidar?) that although Nynaeve shows great potential in Healing, she has very little skill anywhere else. <br /><br />(By the by, I never read about multiple access keys, but even if there weren't anymore, couldn't perhaps Elayne fix it?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 17:42:31
subject: <b>Nyaneve and Alivia are ignorant, not un-Talented</b>
body:
Neither have really been trained.  When Cadsuane says that Nynaeve's healing ability is miraculous, and her ability with everything else, dismal, it is in the context of having never been properly trained.  From what we know of Nynaeve, she learned everything from observation, self-discovery, or Moghedian.  Does anyone ever remember her taking any lessons in anything other than trying to channel consciously? She started her training as Accepted, when they have some leeway as far as course selection goes, and the only time it mentions her trying to learn something from an Aes Sedai is a reference to the fact that the Yellows in Salidar refused to teach her anything.  Elayne mentions that Nyaneve never paid attention to lectures or classes, either and she does not attempt to deny or even qualify that statement.  Alivia was trained as a military weapon.  If she has no talent for finding ores or making a'dam, or the probably small number of non-combat duties the Seanchan use damane for, her training would all have been concentrated on killing or destroying. That isn't to say she has no other abilities in the Power, just that she hasn't learned them yet.  Regarding Talaan's strength, she has been formally trained from the time she was old enough in a strict hierarchal society, and she's older than everyone thinks she is, so she may be closer to heer maximum potential than Nynaeve is, who has only been deliberately channeling for less than two years.  In fact she started training after Elayne did, and Elayne isn't at her full strength yet.  Talaan did not overpower Nynaeve, she out-fought her, a not very impressive feat, when you consider that Nynaeve's skills are &quot;dismal&quot; even by the standards of Aes Sedai, who seem to be the worst-trained of the various channeling organizations (Wise Ones, and Sea Folk have demonstrated abilities, and more importantly,  techniques superior to Aes Sedai, who are largely uninterestd in experimentation, and rather firmly discourage any attempts to find different ways.  See Nyaneve's and Elayne's troubles in Lord of Chaos, and Aviendha and the Windfinders showing up the Aes Sedai in the early chapters of Path of Daggers for examples).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 03:55:50
subject: <b>You got me there</b>
body:
... Yeah what the title says.<br /><br />-_-'<br /><br />But just for the record, it's not as if Nynaeve is actually going to get trained anymore anyway. In every way that matters she is now full Aes Sedai and I doubt she'll suffer anyone telling her what to do anymore. In a sense, she is the most powerful Aes Sedai in both strength and standing. She is the most powerful in the One Power (we're talking Aes Sedai, not novices or Accepted) plus she spent no time as Novice and only a few short years as Accepted. I don't think our Nynaeve is going to be wanting to learn anything from anyone anymore, which still makes her a worse choice for the giant sa'angreal than some other names.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 10:59:58
subject: <b>BTW</b>
body:
That Sea Folk chick's name is Tamarla or sumtin and it wasn't a duel. Also when Elayne and Nynaeve met the Sea Folk, they allowed themselves to measure the strengths... none of them were stronger than Nynaeve but Tamarla was just as strong. <br /><br />It wasn't a duel... Nynaeve was teaching the Sea Folk how to shield. It is harder to shield an Aes Sedai when she is holding saidar and it is even harder to break a block when a channeler who is just as strong as you is maintaining the block.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Semirhage Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine SuperFan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Lan Inspector <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve lover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve's most devoted, loyal, and spazmastic fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Nynessa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 11:02:18
subject: <b>Talaan</b>
body:
Sea Folk's name was Talaan, my bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Semirhage Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine SuperFan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Lan Inspector <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve lover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve's most devoted, loyal, and spazmastic fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Nynessa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 11:10:27
subject: <b>Dismal talents</b>
body:
She started the using all five powers in Healing among Aes Sedai, then they met the Kin who have even greater. I think RJ has diminished Nynaeve's position as being kick-butt and it's really annoying...that's what Nynaeve is known for. And Alivia is 400 years old and has more than likely maxed her strength... Nynaeve is only 26...374 years to go... And i think working with that much of the OP with the CK has increased her strength...we'll have to see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Semirhage Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine SuperFan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Lan Inspector <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve lover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve's most devoted, loyal, and spazmastic fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Nynessa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 23:47:01
subject: <b>Nyn's true talent</b>
body:
I think Nyn's true talent lies is the fact that she uses the OP out of instinct, rather than limit herself by adhering to years of tradition on what can or cannot be done. Alivia and Talaan both have the limitations on their abilities placed by groups which set limits on themselves (damane/windfinders), and even if they go to the Tower, Aes Sedai are creatively challenged to say the least.<br />It was Nyn that first discovered (rediscovered) the true form of Healing, that first figured how to heal severing, and also back in TDR, she pulls out Balefire out of thin air!<br />I think this is where Nyn's true talent lies, in being able to create new ways to use the power (maybe Old Blood in her?)


created: 2002-07-13 21:54:13
subject: <b>About Nynaeve not learning anything...</b>
body:
Cadsuane is currently teaching her and Alivia. So she is still learning and even if it makes her twitch she is still putting up with it. I think Cadsuane will teach her and Alivia some more and Nynaeve will definitely learn a lot more once she is back in the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />I've been Googie-ized<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Have a Googie-rrific day<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 15:40:07
subject: <b>As to Rand</b>
body:
Nyneave has already Healed one of two things that cannot be Healed, Stilling/Gentling.  Personally, I think we'll find that even death can be Healed, to an extent.  Rand brought Mat back from death without Healing.  Nyneave just might be able to do so with.  (That or the Chodean Kal can grant enough power to Heal even death.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 02:04:42
subject: <b>Also Remember</b>
body:
One of the other girls said that Nynaeve &quot;Wouldn't be satisfied until she had healed someone back from the dead.&quot;  Or something like that...maybe it was even &quot;an hour dead&quot; or some such.  Before book 7, not sure exactly where though.


created: 2002-08-21 04:56:10
subject: <b>Link between Asha'man and Aes Sedai?</b>
body:
This is a little off topic, but . . .<br /><br />I think that Nynaeve will definitely be a factor in improving relationships between the Black and White Towers.  <br /><br />1.  Logain Ablar -- He's obviously a very influencial Asha'man, and he also happens to be seriously indebted to Nynaeve.  From what we've seen, he's not the type of person to take his debts lightly.<br /><br />2.  The Cleansing of Saidin -- Nynaeve helped Rand cleanse Saidin, which suggests to the Asha'man that she can be trusted.  In a way, every male channeler in the world is indebted to her.<br /><br />3.  The Two Rivers Men -- If I remember correctly, some of the Two Rivers recruits have already gentled themselves.  It seems very likely that Nynaeve knows at least a few of these men, and it's almost certain that she would agree to heal them.<br /><br />4.  Rand Al'Thor -- Rand, the nominal leader of the Asha'man, trusts her, perhaps more than he trusts any other Aes Sedai.<br /><br />5.  Egwene Al'Vere -- Nynaeve has quite a bit of influence on Egwene, who is likely to become Amyrlin Seat of a unified White Tower.  Also, Nynaeve herself will probably gain standing quickly among the Aes Sedai, once she gains a little more backbone.<br /><br />(Technically, she should already have authority over most Aes Sedai, but you saw what happened when she encountered Cadsuane.  Obviously, she will have to learn that &quot;what must be endured, can be endured&quot; before RJ decides that she can regain a little bit of dignity.  Is it just me, or did she actually run backwards as far as character development goes?  What happened to the good sense that led the Women's Coucil of Edmonds Field to decide that she could handle being Wisdom?  It seems to me that RJ decided she was too strong for that point in the series, and made her pathetic just so that she could become strong again . . .)<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-07 11:07:54
subject: <b>nynaeve</b>
body:
The contrast between Nynaeve's character from, say, book 1 (sensible, authoritative Wisdom) and book 5 (circus attraction...need I say more?) IS striking, but the recent trend regarding her character has been an increasing affinity for being Aes Sedai. As such, Nynaeve is actually MATURING, finally seeing and accepting her role in the Pattern. <br /><br />I tend to believe that her using the CK will exponentially increase her channeling capabilities, since every use of the One Power (okay, not EVERY use) twitches up power levels. Remember, when the Terrible Trio returned to the Tower in book 3, Siuan commented that they had grown stronger, and what WERE they doing in their absence? Channeling like mad, trying to escape Seanchan and Whitecloaks. Now, with Nynaeve having just channeled &quot;oceans&quot; of saidar, it's likely that when she wakes up from what I hope is a regenerative, rejuvenating sleep, she'll be on an entirely different level of power from all the pro-Light channelers, including Alivia, Talaan, and Sharina. In that case, she wouldn't necessarily need to use the now-broken access key; she'll be strong enough to blow away the pro-Shadow elements on her own.<br /><br />By the way, has anyone speculated why it was only the female access key that broke, and not the male one? Does that bode ill, and if so, for who? Rand? Nynaeve? Since the female key &quot;shattered&quot;, maybe something nasty happened to dear Nynaeve? Oh, dear.<br /><br />No matter what, Nynaeve still rules.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 13:58:35
subject: <b>NYNEAVE!!</b>
body:
I love everyone who has something good to say of Nyney!!!<br />Cheers <br />Remember , Ill kill anyone against Nyneave , so dont argue<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i killed the world and you can too if you try hard. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 06:31:33
subject: <b>I win again</b>
body:
You still have to remember Nynaeve's block, with the speed of RJ writing, that is not long ago, so Nynaeve has still a lot of potensial.<br />But what I think is really intresting is see how she's doing against saidin. Taim is as strong as Rand, and log. is at the same level as taim. After Nynaeve held Logien she blocked him, there was a puch for a splitt secund that almost brock Nynave's shield, but it hold. So Nynaeve can do the same job as six other Aes Sedai can do. Rand was hold by six AS, and evantuali broke, but they probably got distrected or something.<br />So then Nynaeve is at the same level as Rand, the dragon, and hasn't rech hur full potesial yet..


created: 2003-03-18 15:15:06
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
Well about Nyn. shielding Logain, First it's easier to sheild someone who is not as strong and Logain is not as strong as Rand. And ye. Nyn rocks and can do the same job as six other. But is not as strong as Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-08 18:43:37
subject: <b>Is great</b>
body:
Alittle correction for one of the postings:  Nynaeve did shield Logain after Healing him, but she also thought to herself that his push against her block was only like someone stretching muscles after being long out of use.  There is no way Nynaeve is as strong as Logain.<br /><br />Logain and many others are indebted to her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-03 05:27:49
subject: <b>it's possible</b>
body:
I would agree with the possibility of this theory, but don't discount Alivia as Rand's partner. Min's viewings about her &quot;helping him die&quot; have fostered a strange amount of trust between the two of them.<br /><br />Also, Nynaeve is not the only healing hero in the series. We also have Damer Flinn and the Kin woman Samitsu. And Cadsuanne's pet aes sedai with the wild black hair, who's name escapes me. Perhaps a healing circle?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 23:58:19
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
One question;  If Birgitte is still bound, what will happen when the Horn of Valerie(sp?) is blown? Hhhhmmmmmmm.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 01:18:35
subject: <b>ITS ALL GOOD</b>
body:
BIRGETTE WAS RIPPED FROM THE WHEEL AS WE ALL KNOW. BUT YOU FAIL TO REALIZE IS THAT YOU DONT HAVE TO BE ATTACHED TO THE TO BE A HERO.AND SHE MAY BE DRAWN BACK THRU HER DEEDS.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">uglykidrand<br />&quot;peace favor your sword&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 05:51:07
subject: <b>heeheehee</b>
body:
I have absolutely nothing constructive to offer, but uglykidrand is talking all in caps like the DO! hehehehehehe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 19:11:14
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I too am a personal friend of the Pattern, and it has assured me that you are completely wrong.<br /><br />ok, maybe not...


created: 2002-06-18 23:06:24
subject: <b>Presumption is wrong</b>
body:
It never said she was ripped from the wheel of heros forever, it just said that she would be ripped from her love partner for ever.<br /><br />Maus


created: 2002-08-20 10:40:52
subject: <b>what if</b>
body:
Birgitte is still bound but now will remain older than her lover.  In Mins Viewing she was bound to a man who sometimes was older than her and sometimes younger. What if now that she is older she will remain that way until another age where something drastic happens?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> The Drewman has been Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The light help us all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 14:06:02
subject: <b>Noal Cain</b>
body:
Ok... <br />Never mind.<br />Everyone knows all the quotes, and visions and everything else. <br />Think about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 14:45:41
subject: <b>Hmmm yes, perhaps...</b>
body:
Maybe she is still bound to the Wheel. I have a feeling Gaidal Cain might be the one who is ripped out of the pattern...causing her to be alone forever.<br /><br />Olver (the main contender to be Cain) might die before he has a chance to become a hero, so from then on he's not bound... or possibly killed by Balefire? Ripped from the Pattern forever!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Spot Shaidar Haran<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> is my dad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-13 08:40:02
subject: <b>They think it's all over...</b>
body:
I don't think that Birgitte can be tied to the wheel forever, because the wheel is rotating for the last time, right? After the Last Battle, there will be no more turning. Or am I completely wrong?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 19:13:25
subject: <b>The last turning of the wheel...</b>
body:
That's a whole 'nother set of theroies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-10 13:18:52
subject: <b>Good one</b>
body:
this is a good theory, despite the fact that it realy won't have any effect on the eventual outcom eof the series. After all, Birgitte was ripped from TAR, not necessarily from the Wheel. And besides, even if she's not bound to the wheel, she won't cry for eternity, because sooner or later, she'll die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 10:03:32
subject: <b>Re: Hornof Valere</b>
body:
Has anyone considered the possibility that &quot;the Creator&quot; made the Horn and sent it to Randland.  We know from EotW that &quot;He&quot; will not take a direct helping hand, but that doesn't necessarily exclude dropping a little present now and then to the people that might help them IF THEY CHOOSE to use it.  <br /><br />This way &quot;the Creator&quot; can help without really helping and have a clear conscience about it.  He/She/It/Whatever wants to help, would really like to help but won't because He has given the people of Randland the free will to choose their world's destiny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Zeddicus<br />zedd@wotmania.com<br />&quot;Life is a dream.  All dreams must end.&quot;<br />&quot;The last embrace of the mother welcome you home.&quot;<br /><br />If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-29 12:11:03
subject: <b>Secret Weapon</b>
body:
A wild shot, but perhaps the Horn was created at the same time as the Choedan Kal (by the same Aes Sedai?), but its secret was kept rather better. Or wasn't kept, as the Third Age knew about it. Hmm, that might also explain why Lews Therin was so sure he could seal the Dark One away.


created: 2007-11-02 15:06:36
subject: <b>Too recent?</b>
body:
There are a few problems with the horn of valere being a ter'angreal.<br /><br />1)As far as we know, the Horn of Valere has always been part of the Wheel of Time: heroes have been tied to the horn for as long as there has been time. If it were a ter'angreal it would have to have been made by a person, and therefore would not have existed before it was made (unless it is destroyed and remade for each turning of the wheel?).<br /><br />2)We have nothing to suggest that people created heroes, as in they never said &quot;hey lets keep some people from going wherever they go after death, keep them in tel'aran'rhiod, and call them back when we need them with... I dunno, a horn?&quot;. If people never put them in the world of dreams, then why would they be able to pull them out (they have a purpose)<br /><br />3)The heroes of the horn,like ta'veren, are used by the pattern to correct itself. The pattern itself is personified throughout the series (if you don't wonder what the pattern really is...); therefore the pattern seems to activly control what's happening. If the pattern created heroes to shape itself, then why would humans create the device to call them back?


created: 2001-06-24 00:03:36
subject: <b>Addition</b>
body:
Is that maybe how dogs, cats, and other assorted canines can sense the ability to channel?  Hhhhhmmmmm......I wonder.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 21:52:04
subject: <b>good but a problem</b>
body:
Well-done but a few questions: You say that the Dragon is the creator's pawn yet I believe good old Artur Hawky stated that he had fought at Lews Therin's side many times but just as many times he had fought agaisnt him. I took this to mean that the Dragon is not the Jesus of the world of Wheel of Time. I don't really understand his role yet but couldn't he be  the ultimate wildcard? I will say it again: I don'r undertand where the Dragon fits in the Pattern. All will  be revealed eventually.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 08:31:14
subject: <b>Stop</b>
body:
Stop  woolhead using infinetly.first of all the dark one is not &quot;infinetly&quot; strong because he was once mortal.second the creator is all powerful.he threw the DO in prison at the flamin moment of creation.Rand will not be alone when tarmon gaidon comes because the creator will help.at the end of the eye of the world when rand was battling the flamin trolloc armies.&quot;IT IS NOT HERE.I WILL TAKE NO PART.ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE,IF HE WILL.NOT HERE.that was the creator speaking so we know the creator will help rand in some way in tarmon gaidon like he did when rand was battling aginor and the trolloc army.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 22:48:39
subject: <b>The pattern continues...</b>
body:
The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.  Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.  In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, Tarmon Gai'don rose in the lands.  Tarmon Gai'don was not the end.  There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.  But it was AN ending.<br /><br />If the &quot;Final Battle&quot; is the last battle of all time in the WoT, I will be very upset.


created: 2002-10-04 11:41:52
subject: <b>I dunno..............</b>
body:
You had me right up to the point where you said that the Wheel and the Pattern are inherently good. Didnt Moiraine tell Perrin at one point (memory fails me here, I think it was in TDR) that the Creator is good, the DO is evil, and the Pattern is neither? There are other instances where words to this effect are mentioned, but my books are in storage, and Im to lazy anyway, to look them up. Anyway, it may be moot point; the Creator is obviously so much stronger than the DO is, otherwise they would duke it out mano-e-mano (is that the right term?)


created: 2003-01-23 02:14:24
subject: <b>wheel of time</b>
body:
Just a comment on the last line... The books are The Wheel of Time, Right? well, it's, like, a wheel that goes round and round. If it doesn't then the whole premise of the series is destroyed (Dragon reborn etc.)which would be rubbish. I think that every era thinks it is the last. And besides I think it would be a cool twist to the end if everything has been won by the good guys and they think the dark one has been finished off for good, and the Wheel of Time continues turning relentlessly for another cycle...


created: 2004-12-07 14:17:01
subject: <b>enter the speedbart</b>
body:
ive been waiting to say that for a long time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />i like the theory. i agree with you on the subject of this being the 'last' battle in a sense. i think that this is the one time where the DO actually has a chance of becoming free and wining. i think that this is because somewhere along the line a major taveren caused a major change to the pattern, (im thinking lews therin going it alone with the hundred companions). this started the chain of events that led to randland as it is today, where the dark one could realistically break through. the creator would know that things were going wrong pretty much instantly, and has therefore realised that it will take a lot to set things right. this is where mat and perrin the booster taveren come in. he has also sent down the karethorn cycle (via the foretelling) to guide the dragon to tarmon gai'don.<br />nice work<br />enter the dragon!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-10 23:11:19
subject: <b>over all, good</b>
body:
one thing, elaida, being elaida, doesnt know everything. i cant believe im the first one to say that...<br /><br />as for where the dragon stands in DO and creator, and in response to what artur hawkwing said, i've always believed in one particular theory that i dont feel like finding the name of. it compared the dragon to the fisher in an ancient game Fain talks of. whichever way the fisher, aka dragon, goes, is the way that will reign. <br /><br />Dragon decides which way to go, and that makes that side 'heavier' and more powerful. if dragon choses DO, he reigns. if dragon choses creator, he reigns. this happens every age. or maybe every 7 ages, being 7 'spokes' of the wheel...? stumps me. anyway, i need t'go to sleep.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 08:13:23
subject: <b>the ways</b>
body:
it explains in book 2 i think , that the ways is one of the many mirror universes that exist along side reality like the world rand and co. go to with the portal stone.It is tainted by saidin because saidin was used in it`s making and the making of the ter`angreal that grows new paths of it. The universe that exists in the ways is a place but the bridges and islands are creations of the power.The black wind was created to destroy shadow spawn but as it was made with saidin it has been corrupted and driven mad to destroy anything .What you were seeing in book 2 when it was trying leave the ways was another example of Padan Fain/Mordeth being able to control anything evil/twisted/corrupted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 22:15:20
subject: <b>Machin Shin, Saidin and fain</b>
body:
now while i agree that what you say make alot of sense, i think that machin shin also has to do with Mashadar. now im too tired to write my own theory, but what if its all tied together- the taint and destruction of aridhol?<br />thats all i got  to say at this hour.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yuri the Yid, Captain of the Black Orchid and overall really fierce Pirate <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Warder to the beatiful Danu <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />M-Cat Baseball- Its a way of life<br /><br />Vive Real Madrid!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 17:16:10
subject: <b>um no</b>
body:
actually i think Rands limit came from the basic limits set on all chanellers not some retarded theory


created: 2002-01-30 00:42:35
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
This is not very useful to anyone but... I love that word... Skim-a-verse! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Out of my mind, back in 5 minutes.<br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>The male damane leash</b>
body:
I ask again, Have you not read Winters Heart?!?!?! <p>Domon says in WH that the seanchan boarded hes ship before he could toss it in the sea and the seanchan now has it ... i believe that Suroth has it, or the seanchan chick Domon is with.</p>


created: 2001-06-24 00:16:42
subject: <b>Shaddap</b>
body:
No, I haven't so Shut Up about acting like we're Idiots.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 17:36:45
subject: <b>Maybe we have seen the spike</b>
body:
A spike and if anyone approaches within a mile of it dies.  I believe in the prologue to Path of Daggers the rulers of the Borderlands meet next to a skinny rustless tower and one of them remarks that they met there because it's believed that approaching it will kill you.  So I think we've already seen it, but it hasn't done anything.  Or maybe I'm wrong. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-10 10:20:38
subject: <b>An island</b>
body:
'A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up.'   I wonder if this refers too Qaim?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" />  Existence is Futile!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Light is Bright, there for I look into it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Asmodean:  You!  No! <br />Rhuarc:  Oh.  Sorry.  Sometimes I forget to wear pants. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 11:30:14
subject: <b>Quaim?</b>
body:
What is Quiam?<br />Something from The Guide?<br />If it is, please tell me about it, I do be curious!<br /><br />PS: Where the Hell could you find a whole bloody mountain hollowed out?? <br />It would have to cover quite some distance with a minimum radius of 1 mile and I can't really think about any place it would really fit.<br />But then again, it could be on a Sea Folk Island...or something or other.<br />Who knows?


created: 2001-06-19 23:20:13
subject: <b>about saidin acting funny</b>
body:
As for Rand being dizzy and out of it after Dumai's Wells, you would be too after being stuck in a box for a week and beaten every day.  And as I recall, Saidin was never really acting flaky until Elayne uses the Bowl of the Winds (I think that was the name).  During Rand's battle with the Seanchan (book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> one of the Asha'man talks about how the area around Ebu Dar is REALLY flaky.  Thats cause since the Bowl uses Saidin also, it is using the saidin in that area to help it do what it does - the flakyness is a result of this...


created: 2001-09-29 20:50:52
subject: <b>Speaking of Rand losing . . .</b>
body:
Don't forget though, if Rand wins Tarmon Gaidin in ANY of the mirror worlds the Dark One must remain imprisoned on all.  Harid Fel said it was a confusing topic.<br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-06 14:16:59
subject: <b>a bit of something</b>
body:
yeah but saidar is also being flacky especially around ebu dar.<br /><br />recall elayne's exploding gateway. later on nyn comments on how she had tried to Heal them right there of their injuries and that it didn't work right.<br /><br />to explain how this could effect saidin, recall that saidin and saidar are two halves of a whole. do something like the explosion to one half and the other feels it as well in all likelyhood.<br /><br />and notice the funny feeling spreads from the gateway explosion outward, it is weaker the farther from &quot;ground zero&quot; you get.


created: 2002-03-22 16:15:26
subject: <b>!!!</b>
body:
i never thought of moridin being the wanderer guy.. wow thanks... and the bit about him wanint to take over the DO with the<br />help of Rand may hold some water.... may be interesting to see what happens when Lanfear is inserted back into<br />the story to see if those intentions go thru...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&#197;&#167;h&#197;m&#197;n                          <br />&#163;&#197;Z&#197;&#174;&#220;&#167;   &#8224;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 21:17:49
subject: <b>HMM</b>
body:
There's a lot of interesting stuff there, but I don't think that Mor/Ishy betraying the Dark One is a very plausible one.  A lot of references and quotes that I can't quite recall point to the fact that Ishy has always believed that the struggle between the Dark One and the Light will eventually be won by the Shadow.  Ishy is quite a smart one and I don't think he's tempted by the small-minded greediness of worldly power.  On the contrary, I think he is the only Forsaken that is truly loyal to the Dark one.<br /><br />I always saw Mor/Ishy as being the darth vader to Rand's skywalker.  As for him joining with Rand, that seems kind of farfetched to me, I just think the two of them will have a crazy personal battle at TG or maybe Ishy will turn out to be Rand's father... or turned back to the light or something...<br /><br />The Lord Captain Commander <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-31 18:05:00
subject: <b>The Taint</b>
body:
The taint is the true source. What else is &quot;The Dark One's Touch&quot;??????????????!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> RIP Robert Jordan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />Godspeed, Brandon Sanderson</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-23 16:52:39
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I go with you in thinking that Ishy is not a small Forsaken who revels in petty evils. But I don't think that he is the Great Lord of the Dark's champion. He would most likely not choose a philosopher to achieve his goals. Ishy sneaked in and took over whith the promise to deliver the Dragon to the Dark One.<br />What his actual goal really is, I don't know. Perhaps to keep the Wheel spinning, perhaps to destroy it to see what comes next. (A though occurs: couldn't that be the goal of a certain Brown sister?)


created: 2003-04-29 08:37:39
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
I agree with most of your major points, except the merging one; It seems to me that Moridin doesn't want any competition at all, and doesn't want to take any chances.  But other than that, incredible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-22 01:10:16
subject: <b>What about....</b>
body:
Perhaps the Dark One plans to convert Rand to the side of evil with the circle of thirteen and Shadar Haran, then Rand would be forced to merge with Shadar Haran, Rand would then be named new Nae'blis, but would be brought back to the light, or at least held from performing evil actions by the remaining LTT in his head, He would, in his moment of hesitation, be recaptured by a circle of thirteen AS, and then be turned lightwise again by the 13 as well as an Ogier. I choose an ogier because as far as I can tell, they are the embodiment of the creator on earth, whereas Halfmen are basically the embodiment of the DO. As this good new Rand, a connection to the DO will still remain, he will then attack the DO through his own bonds as well as working to reseal the prison, once this is done, the severing of the connection of him to Shadar Haran would drive him irreversibly mad, and he would be forced to sheath the sword.<br /><br />As an alternative, he could attack through the bonds as well as directly alongside a strong female of your choice with the two sa'angreal, at which point the DO will be destroyed, and all of the forsaken will go mad from their severance to the true power, Rand will kill them as well as all df's and dark creatures with the use of his 'seeking lightning' and the sa'angreal. At this point, with the world cleansed completely, Rand will realise his power, and Shadar Haran's evil will seep through again, Rand will become corrupt, and will claim that he is the Dark One, at which point he will be stopped by a circle of thriteen containing Verin, Cadsuane, Moiraine, and all extremely strong women who are in the higher circles of randland, at which point they will seal Rand inside a new set of seals alongside several ashaman, and a time of prosper and happiness will come afterwards, with a new Dark One, left to brood until released, and the world cleansed of all evil to forget.


created: 2001-06-14 16:19:11
subject: <b>Rhuarch (or however that's spelled) is Berelains FATHER!!</b>
body:
As the topic says:Rhuarch (or however that's spelled) is Berelains FATHER!! <br />Sulin says something about that, in CoS, so softly nobody else heard. But, there was Perrin and super-ears who couldn't possibly miss it. Anyway, hasn't erelain got the same second nameas Artur Hawkwing? May that mean something? That was way out the theory I'm supposed to comment on but.. jj<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 03:27:05
subject: <b>Berelain's Father? You're delusioned</b>
body:
It doesn't say he IS her father, it says he's LIKE a father. There is no way under the sun that Berelain is Rhuarc's daughter; think about it; she's the first of Mayene, and he's a clan chief of hte Aiel. She's dark haired, and he's red haired.<br />It says he's like a father, but he isn't her real one.<br /><br />Ninya Evoneigh<br />Green/Brown Aes Sedai<br />Bonded to no one<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ninya Evoneigh<br />Aes Sedai Wanna-be <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> X)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 09:51:41
subject: <b>Gai'shain</b>
body:
I thought it was obvious that the man in white would be gai'shain, i never thought it would be a whitecloak, though galad is an interesting though. the two hotties. anyhow, i thought RJ had already mentioned a gai'shain catching berelain's eye, i could be mistaken, though.


created: 2002-01-21 12:28:33
subject: <b>how about both?</b>
body:
I think that Berelain's man in white is both a Gai'shan and Galad.  The Shaido have at least captured one Whitecloak.  I wonder if it could be Galad made Gai'shan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 12:36:53
subject: <b>Galad is my option yet</b>
body:
There are many characters who wear in white. We don&#180;t have to consider only gai&#180;shan but also whitecloacks. So perhaps Galad is a good option, even if nothing is said yet. And he doesn&#180;t need to be gai&#180;shan to wear in white. Remember that Min hasn&#180;t met with him yet, and when she foretells, she already knows Rhuarc. So it wouldn&#180;t be serious!


created: 2002-04-23 23:33:29
subject: <b>RE: Berelain and the man in white</b>
body:
Almost every theory I've read about this vision seems to think that galad is the man in white.  However, there is one major problem with this.  Min has met Galad on a number of occasions, if the vision was clear she would have recognized him.  The only way it could be him was if she couldn't recognize the face.


created: 2002-07-17 06:20:36
subject: <b>More than likely:</b>
body:
Possibly a gaishain, but definately not Rhuarc.  Berelain sees him as a father figure, and has no attraction toward him in a sexual way.  I would imagine that it is someone she hasn't met yet, otherwise she would not still be after Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 08:27:29
subject: <b>Silly</b>
body:
This is a very silly and somewhat kinky theory; I am not trying to call names or hurt people's feelings or anything, but Berelain has known Rhuarc since TDR. Min's vision cleary says that a man in white would sweep her off her feet. Now even if Rhuarc was remotely interested in Berelain, which he isn't, he has not even come close to &quot;sweeping her of her feet&quot;, and if he was taken gai'shain by... who? It'd have to be the Shaido, so I guess Berelain in the upcoming books will be sharing sweat tents with Savanah and Thereva? And that group of small Shaido would have to be able to win a battle against what 100,000 Aiel from the rest of the clans, and take Rhuarc alive? Its rediculous. And just because Min didn't recognize Galad in her vision means absolutely nothing, it could still be or not be him. She never sees EVERYTHING about the incident in question. If Berelain had Rhuarc as gai'shain, how is he going to sweep her off her feet, being all meek and whatnot? I don't think Berelain would find that atractive out of the man who has so far been her father figure; more than likely she would think he was foolish for doing this ji'e'toh business.<br /><br />Anyway, we can't rule out that Rhuarc is Berelain's daddy, I mean, Rand's mom was a Princess turned Madien, his dad an Aiel clan chief, and he ended up in the Two Rivers. Berelain is of an age with Rand, and guess what, the Aiel War happened just around that time. Now Rhuarc then wouldn't have been married, probably, he would have been a simple spear for his clan. We all know how the Aiel can have weird sexual things go on, its not impossible that Rhuarc incountered Berelain's dear ma back in the day...


created: 2002-11-07 22:04:32
subject: <b>not rhurac</b>
body:
rhurac sees berelain as a daughter, not a potential wife. <br />the man in white could be a gai'shian(sp?) but RJ doesn't do meaningless match-making. the gai'shain would have to be someone pretty important.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 12:47:57
subject: <b>maybe not rhuarc</b>
body:
but another gai'shain aiel. Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I like PSO. Oh, and yeah, I hope Egwene dies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-28 14:43:39
subject: <b>I agree that it could be</b>
body:
possibly a Gai'shain instead of a whitecloak, but I highly doubt that it would be Ruharc because he's made it quite clear that he thinks of her as a spirited daughter.


created: 2002-08-30 10:23:45
subject: <b>where did you get that ?</b>
body:
I don't think Rand's taint is spread in any way.<br />The taint remains in those who channel Saidin, and that is<br />not Allana, and not Lews Therin. Well, at least Rand<br />doesn't let Kinslayer touch the source, or tries.<br />And, another flow: Lews Therin can still be in Rand's mind,<br />as a result of the madness. Removing the taint might also<br />have removed Kinslayer. Even Min said one of the two (Rand<br />or Lews) will die.<br />I just want Rand to be the one who does the Last Battle, as<br />he wants himself, and, sane or not, at least I want him to<br />be himself, not Kinslayer.


created: 2001-06-19 11:34:31
subject: <b>My own way of thinking!</b>
body:
Fain would make the perfect candidate for  new DO. After all, remember there are many allusion in the books suggesting Rand will break the Seals, but not so many about him building new ones. ty even knows how to make cuendillar anymore!<br /><br />Fain has all the taints he needs, execpt the True Power (and those saa lights). he has Machin Chin with him, he has Shadar Logoth, he has the present DO's taint all over him, he's the archevil foe! (and he said himself : I will never die!)<br /><br />Everyone agrees the Crator is so much stronger than anyone else (after all, he's the creator). So if his world was treathened by a god-like entity, he wouldn't leave it to a mere mortal to fight this demiurge (and wouldn't have created him in the first place).<br /><br />I think the creator his neutral, and as rand/the Dragon stands as champion of goodness, the DO stands as the champion of evilness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 00:26:11
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Actually, I agree, but am feeling contrary tonight, so: No way.  *heaps heavy critisizm on Asha'man Joe (who rolls over and dies) and is then hit by a stray blast of balefire, is removed from the Pattern,and Joe has never died*<br />Gee, Joe, you were right, you will survive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 12:32:00
subject: <b>Having only read the first line of your theory.</b>
body:
If the DO was/is mortal and the creator sent a champion to fight against this evil man, why in the creators sake did they imprison him OUTSIDE of time where he CAN'T die.<br /><br />I personally would snap the evil upstarts neck and be done with it.<br /><br />Lord Foul <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">what? sorry,.....I'd stopped listening.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 19:20:20
subject: <b>re-read the books, you're wrong</b>
body:
almost every time the dark one and the creator are mentioned together, it is said &quot;The dark one was imprisoned by the creator at the molment of creation&quot;, which even the Aes Sedai agree on; and also, the Dark one has the ability to destroy time (thats his whole plan) and no mortal could do that.  He's also the source of the True power, (which is burns any mortal out of existance when it is channeled near the dark one.)  Also, reread all of Fel's theories (I think thats his name.  Its the smart guy in Cairhein who was killed by a Gholam and thought Min was pretty)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hzurr<br /><br />3.14159265358979323846264338327950</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-02 09:57:55
subject: <b>I like part of it</b>
body:
I like that your theory has a mortal screwing things up and becoming the Dark One.  After all, we know that people screwed things up and the creator leaves it to them to fix it.  So that kinda works.<br /><br />Except that I think the Dragon/champion is built into the pattern.  As the creator creaated time, he is outside time and can know what was, is, and will be.  He knew that there would be need for a champion and so he built him into the Pattern.  My take is that people screwed up by drilling the bore, messing around where they shouldn't have with the Power (Whitecloaks are all over this idea).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 01:20:45
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
Aren't you forgeting something. It is mentioned many times that at the dawn of creation the DO was imprisoned. This may be only belief, but it is believed by everyone. If this is the case then the DO has existed since the first second the world was created. When did he have time to be a mortal?


created: 2003-02-06 20:03:19
subject: <b>Brain is the Dark One and Pinky is Shaidar Haran!</b>
body:
Maybe that's how rats are able to be spies for the Dark One: they share a genetic relationship!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-29 08:55:21
subject: <b>you are flawed</b>
body:
id like to bring up one point. the prophesies of the dragon. in these prophesies it states that the CREATOR imprisoned the dark one outside of time at the moment of creation. The dark one couldnt be a man- creation hadnt happened yet there were none. furthermore, there were no champions for the same reason at this point. therefore due to there being no champions... no incredibly evil person to become the dark one... and no creation period, the dark one could not have been a mortal. <br />And while the dark one may or may not have been made by the creator(i dont like the wording of your theory regardles of your faulty research), I find your theory unnacceptable.


created: 2005-06-09 17:25:20
subject: <b>Some clarity</b>
body:
To ROOTofALLevil, boaks, and hzurr:<br /><br />Just because people believe that Shai'tan was imprisoned at the moment of creation does not make it so. Just because it is said over and over again, does not make it so. How many times was it said the stilling couldn't be Healed? Yet, lo and behold, not one, but TWO people have figured out how to do it. I think you people should re-read the beginning of any of the books, no, better yet, I'll re-print it here for you:<br /><br />The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memory that turns to legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten by the time the Age that gave it birth comes round again<br /><br />Not quite exact, but you get the gist of it. Basically, something big happens, people tell stories for a while, the stories get grander and more extravagant until they become fairy tales, and people just stop telling them all together.<br /><br />Sh!t, guys, what about the Bible? How much of that is truly accurate? How much of that do you truly believe, I mean, c'mon, it's over 2,000 years old, and only the ORIGINAL can receive any credibility. But since it's most likely long detroyed, and was probably written in Aramaic, it doesn't really matter. Most people in our era believe in God and all that, but there's less people who believe it now, than say, 1,000 years ago. And in another 1,000 or so years, how many religious people will be left?<br /><br />We know the stories of the Bible because they were passed down to us from our parents, and their parents before them, and so on and so on. Much like the stories of the Creator and the Dark One. No one knows what really happened except RJ, and the &quot;people&quot; who were there when it happened.<br /><br />Oh, and on a side note, Shai'tan's imprisonment is NOT mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle, other than the fact that he will break free. Prophecy has nothing to do with the past, only the future.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-06 00:48:41
subject: <b>That can't be right!</b>
body:
Isn't the DO the source of all evil though?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Got Dignity?<br /><br />Public Forum, Policy, Congress, Expository, Original Oratory,<br />Humorous Interpretation, Dramatic Interpretation, Duo Interpretation, Impromptu, Extemporaneous, Lincoln-Douglas...<br /><br />Any Questions? Sorry, I'm Not Open For Cross-Examination</font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-16 21:31:19
subject: <b>Shaitan and nae'blis</b>
body:
Alright, so I had skimmed this theory, and kind of dismissed it. In looking for the actual translation of Nae'blis, google was kind enough to allow me to stumble upon this little nugget:<br /><br />Definitions of Nae'blis on the Web:<br /><br />* Ibl&amp;#299;s (Arabic &amp;#1573;&amp;#1576;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1610;&amp;#1587<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, is the name of the primary devil (Shaitan or Satan) in Islam.<br />en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nae'blis<br /><br />I knew Jordan borrowed from various mythologies and stories in his creation, but I find it interesting that he kept these two so closely tied to each other. He didn't pull one from one myth, and one from another. You've got Shaitan, the devil. And the name of the devil is Nae'blis. Perhaps the Nae'blis takes shaitan's place in the prison?<br /><br />It seems that Jordan didn't just pull these names out of the air, since they're 'real' things, they must (I'm using that word loosely) tie into the nature of the characters...Thoughts? Opinions?


created: 2002-01-21 19:31:10
subject: <b>Yah I like that...</b>
body:
I remember the part where Rand was among the glass columns reliving the history of the Aiel through the eyes of his ancestors.  He heard the song, then.  Do you think that once everything is said and done, the Jenn Aiel will be reconciled with their kin in the Waste and allowed to send candidates for Clan Cheif into the columns?  That would certainly give them their song, and their heritage.  Yah, yah...I like that.  Hope there's time for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 02:19:02
subject: <b>Makes sense</b>
body:
I think that it makes some sense.  Since the Tinkers travel so much, wandering around Randland, the Ways could be part of what the song is about.  It is possible that the song would silence the moaning and screaming of the ways, and throw the Black Wind into the parts of the ways that the Bridges go over.<br /><br />Kaeman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-15 02:15:36
subject: <b>Interesting theory on the Ways</b>
body:
I never considered it but this is an excellent solution for the cleansing of the Ways!  Especially if you believe the Song will be found...as I do!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Shel</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 10:13:45
subject: <b>Me being a silly bugger</b>
body:
I think your all wrong the song that the tinkers are looking for is Gangster's Paradise by Coolio<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> That's my bit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 22:10:48
subject: <b>Finally</b>
body:
Yes I finally agree on a flamin theory.I always bloody knew the Dark One was bloody mortal.Because in the Great Hunt before Rand had the flamin heron engraved in his palm Ba'alzamon took of his mask and his face was burned and if he was imortal his face would not be burnt but his face was smoothed.Leaving at the fact that the DO became imortal.i didnt have a lot to flamin cuss about which really bloody ticks me off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 21:31:34
subject: <b>Hrm.</b>
body:
Actually Uno, Ba'alzamon was Ishamael.  So.. Unless Ishamael is the Dark One, I don't really think the fact that his face was burned would hold any real significance to this theory.  Or something.  I'll be quiet now.


created: 2002-07-13 17:38:22
subject: <b>ah HA!</b>
body:
i agree about the mortal thing (good job, btw), but i believe that the REAL question has not been yet presented:<br /><br />What was his name?<br /><br />Prob'ly something dorky...heehee...like Maurice <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />am i correct in assuming that Shai'tan means, literally, Dark One?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>yeah, except there is this bit...</b>
body:
Thom could possibly be able to LEARN to channel, I dont support this, but its still possible <img src="images/pharoah.gif" />


created: 2002-04-16 03:57:36
subject: <b>Age matters not</b>
body:
It still is wholly possible that Thom can channel, because straight from the big white book you so happily quoted, &quot;...the ability to learn, would lie dormant until discovered at what ever age.&quot;. i do not beleive that Thom will be able to channel but your reason is not sited correctly.


created: 2002-05-23 11:03:23
subject: <b>what about Damer Flinn?</b>
body:
The grizzelled old Ashaman, tottering old man (accorrding to Demandred) learnt to Channel late in life. Why not Thom?<br /><br />of course RJ has stated that Thom cannot but if RJ had not said that then there is no good reason rthat Thom could <br />not learn to channel


created: 2006-03-07 10:04:05
subject: <b>I agree with those above me.</b>
body:
Flinn learned to channel at an extremely old age.<br />We also have novices in the rebel camp who were mothers and grandmothers competing to see who was strongest with their daughters who were also novices.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-19 18:42:27
subject: <b>Yes and No...</b>
body:
Yes I believe that Thom cannot channel...<br /><br />No, it is not impossible though - still I do not believe that he can, could or would want to - but I must remind you that if RJ really wanted Thom to channel well heck! Logain could run the test and find out that Thom is one of those without the &quot;spark&quot; who can &quot;learn&quot; to channel.<br /><br />Yeah?


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Winter's Heart</b>
body:
Just in response to the comment you don't think it got dumped.  Pick up a copy of WH.  IT is stated almost point-blank that it was dumped becuase the ship got boarded.


created: 2001-06-11 05:03:13
subject: <b>Collar was not dropped</b>
body:
actually it says that it didn't get dropped because if he had dropped it the seanchan would have killed him so the seanchan have the male adam and they also have the notion that the DR is supposed to serve the Empress much like a damanae<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 17:47:16
subject: <b>Rand's Chains</b>
body:
I'm not sure if this could be the chains rand is suppose to break from as stated by Moiraine in TDR, but it seems to me like it would be a good plot twist and an interesting way for the setting to move across the ocean, if Rand were in custody of the Seanchan.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-24 00:34:15
subject: <b>No Way</b>
body:
One, RJ says the story will stay in Randland.<br />Two, if the men and women are linked, the man supplies the power, and the women control.<br />Three, Logain has a compulsion-type thing on his Aes Sedai, if he told them to let him go, they would.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 21:56:44
subject: <b>Taim shall be collared</b>
body:
I first want to say that I think Taim is a #@$&amp;@&amp;^$#@!!! He is a **^%# &amp; I won't mind him being collared at all.<br /><br />He has been stuffing Rand's plans &amp; usurping power &amp; influence over the Asha'man. I think that Rand or Logain shall overpower him after his latest scheme &amp; collar him &amp; give him to 2 of the Aes Sedai that was in Salidar when the tower broke. <br />Logain shall become Ma'hael but change the name to something akin to the Amryln. Rand shall probably give Callandor to Logain, I am not sure yet though, I don't know Logain enough yet.<br /><br />Rand won't wear the collar because he can use Callandor fine by himself and he would only give it to some one he could trust wouldn't stab him in the back, probably because they are worried that others will get them.<br />Elayne has 2 countries to run so she won't have time to be chained to a guy except the chain she has to Randy.<br /><br />&quot;I feel uncomfortable aroung nobles&quot;<br />&quot;But you are a noble&quot; Durnik said.<br />&quot;That is what makes me uncomfortable!&quot; Garion said.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-07 20:45:37
subject: <b>Is the collar even necesary now?</b>
body:
Well??   Is it??   Personally, I dont think the collar is neccessary for the use of Callondor (sp?) because now, supposedly, Rand's gotten rid of the taint, so, that means the sword which isnt is now a fully functional Sa'Angreal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 18:46:48
subject: <b>The Man Collar</b>
body:
The function of the &quot;Man Collar&quot; is identical to that of an a'dam, but either its history or its creation includes immense pain, such that Nynaeve and Elayne are nearly overwhelmed by the sense of dread at even the touch of it.<br /><br />It was not lost, Domon never had the chance to beat out to deep waters and sink it before he was overtaken by Egeanin's crew.<br /><br />It will not have anything to do with Callandor, nor will Callandor be 'given' to anyone, not Logain, not anyone. Rand trusted Narishma with it during the cleansing of saidin, partly because Narishma was extremely acquainted with the results of misusing it, and because of the need for employing a female channeler to make it safe. Narishma accounts for the visions of Callandor being wielded by a dark young man. Now that there needs be no buffer against the taint, Rand can use it at will.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 21:28:33
subject: <b>Correct me if I'm wrong . . .</b>
body:
. . . but doesn't Sevanna have the collar? I thought she got it from Sammael?  I know she has something she thinks will control Rand (and it could be nothing at all as well) and besides, if she were to gain control of Rand I certainly think that would add some more chaos onto the pile.  <br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-29 20:08:03
subject: <b>the collar...</b>
body:
I do not personally think that either of these theories are right.  This being that I believe I heard or read somewhere that in a cirlce of three: one man and two women the man would control the link, and I know from reading that the high lady suroth got it from bayle domon and egeanin...  Sorry guys...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Lady Faile t'Bashera</font><br /><font color="darkblue">The last of the Gunslingers and of the Katet 19</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="green">Urza's and Jojjo's Aes Sedai!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="blue">Aes Sedai to Rand the Dragon Reborn</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep and Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 09:44:00
subject: <b>Esactly</b>
body:
I always thought that they were probably not only throwing away ter'angreal but also angeral and s'angeral that could be used by men!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 17:35:04
subject: <b>Ter'angreal</b>
body:
I may be being stupid here, but can't at least some ter'angreal be used by both men and women?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 19:20:42
subject: <b>Rubbish vs *'Angreal</b>
body:
RJ describes the rubbish that they throw away as rotted legs from tables, bolts of cloth that are rotted and deteriorated, basically garbage.  He mentions her finding an angreal that is likely tuned to saidin.  Its described as age worn ivory, carved like a man with a warm smile.  Sounds reminiscent of the buhdda stereotype.  Anyways she [Elayne] not knowing what it is keeps it anyways feeling that it is in some way tied to the One Power.  Now that isnt to say that she may have thrown something else away, but I dont think it too likely if she was able to catch that.  Its possible though that the rubbish may have given clues as to what the ter'angreal may do, say if a certain bolt of rotted cloth may have once been fancloth.  Maybe we have a new way of making Warder's cloaks...


created: 2002-09-10 15:54:47
subject: <b>Partiality</b>
body:
I totally agrre with you that some of the things that were thrown away might have been things made by the Power but attuned to saidin... we'll never know... but the second idea... well... I'm not entirely sure... it is of course a possibility


created: 2002-09-18 19:26:48
subject: <b>Stupidity</b>
body:
In response to Elayne and Nynaeve being stupid, i think that you have to take a couple of things into consideration.  1. They're under alot of stress.  Between the Windfinders and the Kin, they're hving to deal with a lot of strong women who dont want to listen to someone younger than them. 2. They are only 18 and 25 respectivley, and they just dont have the knowledge or experience that someone older would.  They're doing the best they can, so try to give them a break <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-26 13:20:14
subject: <b>Seals and Turning Wheels</b>
body:
I have seen it said that &quot;the Dark One will be destroyed&quot; and that &quot;so and so will become a new Dark One&quot;. This is (at least to me) impossible. I would believe that the Dark One is an omnipotent metaphysical being that will either win or be imprisoned again. To the grand beings that are Light and Dark this third age has the menaing of a bitme bite. I think that Creator and Dark One are playing games over the ages and every time the Dark One is imprisoned it's another point for the light. They will continue to play this again and again for all time no matter what happens. If the Dark One breaks free the Light will be on offense for the first time in who know's how long but that is it. For these two each turning of the wheel means very little. Every single person on the globe as WoT characters know it are just pieces to manipulate and no one is more than a king or a fisher. Most are simply pawns or even less. The Wheel is the ultimate time clock.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wasabi<br /><br />Pewterdragon    Shhh! . . . I'm busy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 08:54:14
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
I see what you meen but when RJ uses an idea like that he usualy puts his own little twist on it. So dont plan on seeing Fain biting rands finger off <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:18:42
subject: <b>Padan Fain and Gholum</b>
body:
I like the idea of Padan Fain being a spoiler against the Forsaken and the Dark One.  Was thinking how Rand could stop a gholum, since I think he will ultimately be the target of the gholum.  Short of bale fire, what can Rand really do against a gholum?  Open a gateway at its feet and send it to another dimension?  It occurred to me that Padan Fain might actually be the one to take out the gholum, because &quot;he belongs to me,&quot; meaning Fain wants to be the one to kill Rand.  Padan Fain won't want anyone else to steal his privilege of killing Rand.  And we know the One Power won't affect a gholum, but what about the destructive properties of Padan Fain's red ruby dagger?  Just a thought.


created: 2002-12-31 17:07:20
subject: <b>Fain kills Gollum</b>
body:
Fain is the only one besides Mat and Moridin who can harm the creature. I dobt that mat can get the damn creature will stay still long enough for Mat to use his Medallion to kill it. Maybe the Shaitan will have the Nae'blis send the creature after Fain if Isam/Slayer can't kill him.If you really think about it Fain is the atronger of the Two.<br /><br />Another thing that has been bothering me is the forsaken refered to Mat's dagger as an old friedn and enemy.


created: 2003-02-27 22:35:05
subject: <b>You scare me</b>
body:
I logged on to spout the very theory I've Just read, viz. that Fain=Gollum...spooky, I'm going to have to take a pill to calm down.<br /><br />ahhh that's better... great minds eh?


created: 2004-11-03 11:46:20
subject: <b>tipping the scales</b>
body:
The theory is a good one, however unlike in the lord of the rings I feel that if padan fain were to tip the scales he would do so in the dark one's favour.  His main target has always been Rand.


created: 2005-06-09 04:41:12
subject: <b>kinda what i was thinking</b>
body:
that somehow, fain is going to end up helping kill/imprison the DO.  i think he would have died by now if he didnt have a huge funky twist at the end.  and if i remember correctly, i think there was a little foreshadowing going on about him being pissed at the DO for what was done to him...whine whine whine....  and then there seemed to be a little stress on the fact that the stadar logoth evil was completely different from the DO's evilness.  i dont know.   i suppose maybe this could be either too obvious, or too crazy ...  but i can feel it, man!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I don't know who it is, but it probably is Fhqwhgads.&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 14:28:24
subject: <b>Am I really First?</b>
body:
I think that you are right about the next age being a solution to our age, but I think that they have to keep the one power for at least one age longer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="#990000">R</font><font color="#FFCC33">a</font><font color="#FFCC00">i</font><font color="#009900">n</font><font color="#006666">b</font><font color="#3366CC">o</font><font color="#9900CC">w</font> Ajah<br /><font color="#9900CC"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Bonded to<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><i>Muir&amp;Jed&amp;DW&amp;xxxdec21xxx</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 05:13:23
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
IF, and only IF, RJ intends our world to be one of the ages of the Wheel, this would be the theory I'd pick. It makes complete sense. However, I don't believe that RJ intended this at all, so good luck making something out of nothing!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 19:21:55
subject: <b>I like this theroy but...</b>
body:
Ive been toying with this for a while now, but i dont think that the 1st age is ours now.<br />The wolves remember humans running with them before they found the power, and it has been said that the discovery o the power started the 2nd age.<br />So far, the third age has been going for 2000 years, give or take. If our age now is the 1st age, then it has been going for nearly 10,000 years, back to before we had civilisations.<br />i think that, if RJ intends ours to be an age in the wheel, that we are in the 5th age. Dunno why the 5th but it would account for the cronicles of Wot.<br />It is mentioned that there is no set length for an age, and so ur theroy may still hold, if there is enough room for that much variation.<br />Then again, the wolves may be refering to humans hunting with them (as in bird dogs). (I just thought of that, but it supports ur theroy more than mine).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 15:47:55
subject: <b>The Amayar &amp; Aiel</b>
body:
There are strong hints that the Amayar are offshoots of the Da'shain Aiel, just like our Aiel are, and the Tuatha'an are. The mention of a &quot;Water Way&quot; is terrifyingly reminiscent of the &quot;Way of the Leaf&quot;, I expect they even have a cute little adage about water flowing around stones and such. Its quite possible some of those 'rebels' to the oath of the aiel sailed away from the troubled land, landing on Tremalking for instance.<br /> These peaceful strangers also speak of an &quot;end to illusion&quot;, that life is simply an illusion that will end. This bears a strong echo to our Aiel, and their &quot;life is a dream/from which we must wake&quot; theory. I think the Aiel have been woken by Rand, telling them the truth of their history--they were living in a dream world as they had no idea of their true past--so it stands to reason the Amayar should be nudged out of the illusion also.<br /><br />~Seidazar~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Seidazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Witch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Devoted Mat Follower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <i>It's been lovely but I have to scream now</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 00:40:10
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
Who the **** are the Amayar?!?<br /><br />And for all you mean little 'what are you, stupid?' people, NO I HAVE NOT READ &quot;WINTER'S HEART&quot;!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 03:50:43
subject: <b>the amayar</b>
body:
heh. the amayar are mentioned in the guide (and i believe somewhere in cos). they're denizens of the sea folk islands. i believe they also have some kind of major trade, but i have neither book with me, so i can't say what.


created: 2004-04-14 08:32:34
subject: <b>The sphere thing</b>
body:
The thing with the sphere and the woman's hand is that part of the female-friendly choeden kal being used.  I got this from the part when the Rand and Nynaeve start using the Choeden Kal, RJ 'shows' us a woman on tremalking sitting down in front of the actual sa'angreal to see the &quot;end of illusion&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Ayana Modrelin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />'And love, is not an easy thing...the only baggage that you can bring is all that you can't leave behind' -U2</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>well, i take back part of this one...</b>
body:
i wrote this theory before wh (obviously) and i think i'm going to take back the severity of the winter being due to the bowl. i think the winter is just unususually harsh. i still think the rest is right, but hopefully we'll see in the next one when (if) we learn more about the sickness.<br />-pmite18, formerlly known as rasthedoctor


created: 2001-06-11 05:19:44
subject: <b>definitly the explosion</b>
body:
Im all about it being elaynes little explosion.  Their is no reason for them to need a man if the bowl will do it by itself.  The men need a buffer not the women.  If working something that needed saiden without a man could cause problems then Sevanna callbox would have done so as well<br />Later <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 00:45:14
subject: <b>cool</b>
body:
also, maybe that's why saidin seemed &quot;eager&quot; in PoD.  Interesting.  Good theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 23:23:18
subject: <b>the bowl is the cause</b>
body:
the gateway was both at the farm and in that place in andor.<br /><br />now if the messed up unraveling gateway was the cause of the sickness then why isn't the power also messed up in andor? the aes sedai and kin and who ever else would certainly have felt the power messed up if it was caused by the stuffed up unraveling.<br /><br />also i don't beleive that a mistake caused with saidar would have any effect on saidin.<br /><br />so that narrows it down to the bowl being the cause of the sickness. it's the only event that in that time that had anything to do with saidar and saidin.<br /><br />there is also the possibilty that the harsh weather is caused by the bowl. i think it was one of the forsaken who said that in there time the bowls were used to regulate the weather. now that the bowl has been used to bring on the winter, maybe it will be needed again to reduce the feirceness of it so that summer has a chance of coming again.


created: 2001-10-03 04:41:53
subject: <b>It's all about the bowl</b>
body:
I think it was mentioned somewhere (not in books, but on a site somewhere) that the reason the BoW screwed up the source was because it was never meant to grab that much weather.  It was supposed to be used for smallish areas, like around a city, not the whole darn continent.<br /><br />Evile clown!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Invertedpanda<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Invertedpanda<br /><br />Have an ambushed night (by an Evil Clown) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Consistency denotes a lack of imagination <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 15:30:36
subject: <b>th BoW</b>
body:
the bowl of winds was used during the breaking of the world by the sea folk windfinders to regulate the weather and the seas so the idea that the need of the inclusion of a man in the link flies out there because the sea folk wouldn't want a mad channeler on their ^boats.... what I believe the problem is is that usually the BoW of winds was used at sea where the people were constantly moving so I believe that it was the sheer amount and the sheer difficulty of the task that caused the bowl's after effect and also the fact that it was done in a populated area and that usually it was done at sea.... the Idea of sheer amount causing the problem comes from the fact that when rand is cleansing saidin in WH he says that he can feel the power all around him so I suppose that that the alteration of worldwide weather needed to affecat ALL the power of the world thus creating residues near ebou dar.... <br />my two cents (hope they make sense)


created: 2002-04-26 18:45:24
subject: <b>Bowl of the Winds</b>
body:
I didn't know this was really a debate...  I always assumed the BoW was what was responsible for the 'Sickness'.  First of all it wasn't just Saidin that was acting strange, it was saidar as well.  It started just after they used the BoW at the kin's farm when Elayne made the Gateway to Andor, she said the flows didn't want to cooperate and then they suddenly snapped into place.  At the time she attributed it to being tired after expending so much energy using the Bowl.  This is the same description that the Asha'man gave Rand at the battle against the Seanchan, that the flows didn't seem to want to cooperate and then would suddenly 'snap' into place.  Also, the Seanchan damane were described as 'Sick', when preparing for the same battle.  It seems the 'sickness' was worse the closer the channeler was to Ebou Dar, the further away they were the less noticeable it was.<br /><br />When the BotW was used at the farm, we know it used Saidin and Saidar both in very large amounts.  The flows were said to make a column of sorts towards the sky, where they then spiraled out in a lace that stretched beyond the sight of the Circle using the bowl.  Afterwards the channelers could 'feel' Saidar in the air around them.  I'm assuming the bowl spread the flows out over a good part of continent, else it wouldn't have affected the weather so far away from Ebou Dar so quickly.  And since the power was concentrated in Ebou Dar, the feel of Saidar in the air would be presumably worse there.<br /><br />Saidin may have seemed a little worse than Saidar simply because male channelers were contending with the 'strangeness' as well as the Taint, but we know from the Seanchan that the 'strangeness' was effecting both halves of the power.<br /><br />I believe it also seemed as though the strangeness was worse with Saidin simply because we saw more males channeling in the books near Ebou Dar than females.  Rand's army, and Asha'man were near Ebou Dar fighting the Seanchan, while most of the female characters that can channel got out of Ebou Dar as soon as the Seanchan showed up with their a'dam.<br /><br />The Bowl would also account for the overly harsh winter.  To effectively correct the weather of an entire continent would use one hell of a lot of the power.  We know from much earlier in the series that when working with weather that you simply need to get it started and then it pretty much keeps up on its own until it dies out.  The Circle in Ebou Dar had to use massive amounts of power to correct the weather because they were trying to shift it from one extreme to another.  If the weather hadn't of been so harsh to begin with I dont believe it would have taken so much power to change it.  It would presumably be easier to shift from autumn to winter than from the worst summer imaginable to winter.  So the amount of power that 'had' to be used to correct it also determined exactly how strong it would be once corrected.


created: 2003-02-16 08:50:47
subject: <b>Gateway, not the Bowl</b>
body:
First of all, if it was the Bowl's use that caused the troubles with the Power not obeying, than Elayne should have had difficulty weaving the gateway into Andor, and Aviendha should have had trouble weaving fireballs, and the whole crowd should have had a hard time shooting down the raken.  There was no mention of any distortion of the Power at the time.  In the chapters with the Seanchan PoV, there is much evidence that the Power distortion affects women too.  There was a reference to a celebratory performance by the damane being cancelled for unknown reasons, and Kenner Miraj's comment that they would need the damane closer to Ebou Dar frightened the der'sul'dam. Remember too, the damage Morr described was far more extensive at the Ebou Dar end of the gateway than what Elayne and Aviendha saw, probably because that's where it was first woven (and the starting point is what you have to know well to travel, so it figures the weave would be centered in Ebou Dar).  <br />Also I don't know why we are refering to this as a sickness.  The difficulty the Asha'man experience weaving saidin as they get close to Ebou Dar is not necessarily related to Rand's nausea and dizziness, which started back in Illian.  None of the other Asha'man have been vomiting or retching, and by WH, Rand's sickness has progressed to the point where Nynaeve and Elayne notice it in spite of his attempts to conceal his condition.  There is no sign of any other man doing this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-11 02:49:36
subject: <b>riders on the storm...</b>
body:
i think the bowl of winds symbolizes the maruts, the storm-gods, the change that needs to happen even though the people that make it happen are against it.<br />either the storm-gods ARE the riders on the storm, or the riders need to pay homage to the storm who is their steed<br /><br />don't ignore ppl who have a name that begins with J<br />either they know what they're talking about, or they're meant to show the way to other Js<br />like john to jesus, like jehova to jesus, like jesus to judas....<br /><br />i'm junkie. don't doubt me, cuz i'll be either your judas, or i'll be your jesus<br />god, i seem blashemus


created: 2002-02-17 02:10:12
subject: <b>I never thoughta that...</b>
body:
This theory seems to be quite ancient, but I'd like to say that it makes sense like others don't. Of course why she would have her Warder drive a stake through Ispan's heart- especiall when they need her to learn about the BA- is beyond me. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 20:08:53
subject: <b>has it been that long?</b>
body:
Wow, it's been a while since I've been here. I thought I'd just hop down and see how my theory was doing. . . Not bad, really.<br /><br />To smooth out a few wrinkles:<br /><br />I suppose Black Ajah are consodered Dark Friends, right? So Vandene probably would be able to just start wailing on her with the power despite the oaths. The use of Crimsonthorn would probably be nicer though, and maybe give her a chance to say some last words. It's important to remember that part of the theory is that Vandene dearly loved her sister.<br /><br />Ispan needed to be taken care of because she new about Adeleas, and Vandene doesn't want it getting around. I don't know why she would use her warder. Perhaps she didn't want to use the power at all, for fear of being detected.<br /><br />P.S. The site's new(?) look is awesome.


created: 2002-05-13 09:02:59
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
I think this should be hailed as one of the most original theories. Vandene killing Ispan and Adelas is something I wouldn't have thought of.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind.&quot; -- E.Morrison, ToP <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-23 02:08:38
subject: <b>great theory...</b>
body:
i have always thought vandene killed adeleas, partly because i believe all these &quot;trails&quot; RJ leads to sareitha being BA might be a screen or red herring... however, i always assumed it was because of the other way around.... that perhaps vandene was black, and adeleas found out, either that night or some other time.... only thing to do was dispose of her.... we have all sorts of foreshadowing for ONE of them, at least, being black, such as when that Dragkhar is shielded or whatever at their house.... and i thought it made more sense for it to be adeleas, because most of the BA we have seen have no warders, or mask the bond, because they dont want to risk betrayal, but jaem COULD be a DF... anyway, i digress.... one last thing, both sareitha AND vandene could be BA, but shiaine or whomever was talkin might just know of one.... i think we will find out in the next book, maybe, whether or not vandene is black, if our little snoops zarya and kirstian have unfortunate &quot;accidents&quot;, perchance after they spend enough time with V to realize SHE is the killer!!! bye bye


created: 2003-03-02 15:49:10
subject: <b>look at this!!!!!!</b>
body:
This idea is pretty much refuted by the statement Vandene makes in [TPOD: 28, Crimsonthorn, 547]: <br /><br />&quot;Those two facts name her [Adeleas'] killer, in a way. A Darkfriend, and one of our party.&quot; <br />If Vandene is not Black Ajah, then she is bound by the First Oath and unable to lie. She automatically eliminates herself, therefore, by her own statement.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-06 12:48:31
subject: <b>i don't get it</b>
body:
i know the wotfaq uses this quote as a refutation for this theory. this seems to be the only direct evidence against my theory but it's no good. vandene is specifically refering to those 'two facts' and they point to black ajah 'in a way.' since when do people take aessedai at their word. she doesn't directly say that the killer is black ajah. only that the facts seem to point to black ajah 'in a way.'


created: 2004-07-05 07:39:52
subject: <b>Vandene = Black Ajah</b>
body:
I personally believe that Vandene is black ajah. But she was also sister to Adeleas, though for me this proves how strong the darkfriends are tied to the Dark One. Vandene did not like what she did, she loathed it to be honest but she was forced to.<br /> <br />I think that Ispan was about to tell something about Black Ajagh, something that could lead to Vandene or perhaps she was about to tell Adeleas that her sister was a darkfriend.<br /><br />But you must see it from another point of view, and with that I mean Jordan's. If you made Vandene the killer it would absolutely create a more creeping feeling into the series, an scary yet interesting element to the series.<br /><br />So I think that Vandene killed her sister and then hated herself for it. Sure, it could might as well be someone else, but just think about it from the POV of an author. had I been Jordan I would have made her the killer.<br /><br />Though this is hardly proof but hopefully I will eventually see if I was right or wrong. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-03 20:47:02
subject: <b>To sun_shine</b>
body:
Just to throw a monkey wrench at ya, take a close look at that quote(emphasis mine):<br /><br />&quot;A Darkfriend, <b>and</b> one of our party.&quot;<br /><br />Now, let's take a minute here, run with me for a bit, eh?<br /><br />Adeleas, Black Ajah, let's say. Whilst &quot;interviewing&quot; Ispan, Vandene figures it out, offers to go make tea. While she's out of the room getting her crimsonthorn, Ispan coerces Adeleas to let her go, Vandene comes back to see Ispan unbound. Vandene is a little worried, then Ispan starts to say, oh, I dunno, &quot;Adeleas is a Black Sister too&quot; or some such, Addy picks up a stake with the Power, and drives it into Ispan's chest. Vandene doesn't ask any questions, just offers her sister some tea, and says something like &quot;I won't tell anyone what happened, you're all right&quot;, or something like that, and just waits for the tea to take effect. And as for residues from the Power, well, Moiraine can dispel residues, as shown in tEotW, and she's hardly a researcher of old techniques, why wouldn't it be feasible than Vandene and Adeleas know how too?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 00:48:57
subject: <b>No, it would NOT be cool!</b>
body:
Faile is cool!  Way cooler than Berelain, anyways, and she definately should not die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 21:30:41
subject: <b>mmmmmm.............</b>
body:
I never considered this, but it looks like a posibilty,but not something that is certain.<br />The crown part is a problem, but maybe it means, broken as in he won't have any longer.<br />Far fetch however.  I am going to have to read about the viewing of the two birds that perch<br />on Perin's shoulders.  If I remember right, one has a leash the other doesn't.  It is obviouse which<br />represents which woman, but I also seem to remember a dream of Egwene's that may prove this<br />theory even more so.  Unfortunatly, my mind as gone blank.  <br /><br />I like Faile better and I wouldn't want to see her die.  What happens- happens.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-19 16:32:06
subject: <b>Faile lives</b>
body:
Of course Faile is not going to die. Perrin has already lost his WHOLE family; why on earth would Jordan then kill off his wife - it doesn't make any sense. Futhermore, accepting that Berelain's 'man in white' is in mourning is one thing, immediately making Perrin that man just because you prefer her to Faile is misguided, in my opinion. <br /><br />Given that the books are intricate in nature, not surreal, I think that it is more probable that the man in white is either a WHITEcloak (probably Galad - he needs someone like Berelain to balance his own prudish character) or another noted for wearing white. <br /><br />Gai'shain is the other group that springs to mind, but, given that the most likely way of introducing Berelain to one of the gai'shain would have been to have had her kidnapped along with Faile &amp; co., Galad, our starring Whitecloak who is just as gorgeous as Berelain, is still the best bet. <br /><br />(As far as the Broken Crown is concerned - I think that Bashere and Tenobia will die, making Faile and Perrin king and queen of Saldaea.)


created: 2002-03-23 17:41:56
subject: <b>Another white group</b>
body:
Just remembered another bunch who wear white - the Seanchan servants. Given that the Panarch of Tarabon ended up as one of these, it's likely that another ruler did or will do. Such a person would also be a suitable partner for Berelain, and she'd have the added benefit of seeing him practically naked first. <br /><br />I suppose, however, that this would involve her coming into contact with the Seanchan, which is not very likely. Oh well, it was just another example of the number of possibilities for her man in white.


created: 2002-07-29 00:31:29
subject: <b>gai'shan</b>
body:
i don't think Faile will die. i have to say that i really don't care either way and Perrin and Berelain getting together would be a very cool plot twist. i just have a gut feeling that Berelain's &quot;man in white&quot; is going to be a gai'shan. She always seems to be hanging out with the Aiel right? Gaul i think would be a good fit... yes i know he is love with Bain or Chaid or somebody... but Berelain... hubba hubba... and again Min says that SHE is going to fall for a man in white, not that her feelings will be returned of course. So, Gaul is made gai'shan by the Shaido maybe... and ta dah! <br /><br />hooray for beer! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-04 11:08:35
subject: <b>The whiteclad man</b>
body:
The white clothed man will be perrin when he tries to rescue faile from the aiel camp they will disguise themself as gaishan and try to rescue her, when she sees him she will litterally fall head over heels...


created: 2003-05-04 19:47:18
subject: <b>hmmm...*ponder*</b>
body:
We know Perrin's entire family is dead, and killing off Faile would be like the greatest of all hells, wouldn't it?  I mean, maybe all of these bad things are happening to Perrin for a reason...to subconciously guide him to where he needs to be.  Sorry, I hate Faile.  This is me trying to put it nicely that I want her dead.<br /><br />PS - My apologies to all Faile-lovers, but I think you might be outnumbered on this one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 17:30:10
subject: <b>She just can't...</b>
body:
Faile can't die for numerous reasons that I mentioned in my post on the other theory that she is going to die. <br />Besides Berelain may end up being Perrins 2 wife.<br /><br />Another thought is that the guy(sorry can't remember his name) who caught Faile will help her in some way escape and he will being wearing white and Berelain will fall for him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-24 15:36:18
subject: <b>I wish</b>
body:
No.<br /><br />Faile is too important. She's heir to the Saldaean throne, whether it's the Broken Crown or not, and if it ISN'T the Broken Crown, then she's heir to that TOO. Plus, why would Perrin rule Saldaea? He knows NOTHING of their culture or people - if he rules Saldaea he will NEED Faile. Plus he's an idiot. SHE'S the one that makes ALL the shrewd, political moves. He just makes the obvious ones that anyone could figure out with some thought and intelligence. (It's true. Building a wall to slow Trollocs down? Wow, how brilliant. Hunting small bands of Trollocs down? So clever.)<br /><br />Plus, Min's viewings always see the FUTURE, and she said that Berelain WILL fall in love. WILL indicates a FUTURE TENSE, and there's no way in hell that Berelain will see Perrin in white and suddenly fall in love with him when being with him for FOUR books didn't do it for her.


created: 2007-07-05 04:43:51
subject: <b>Salea is too obvious for the broken crown....</b>
body:
...RJ loves to fool us into thinking we know the answer. You must remember that Manetheren was a nation that was 'broken'. Thus if Perrin re-raises Manetheren from the grave, which he is alreadyu doing without trying, he is the obvious choice for the King. That leads to two scenarios:<br /><br />1. The crown he wears could be considered a 'broken' crown since Manetheren was once broken, and now reforged by the hands of a Blacksmith.<br /><br />2. Perrin asks Davrim Bashere to use his families 'broken crown' as the Crown of Manetheren in his dead wife Faile's loving memory.<br /><br />Personally I don't think Davrim would do taht, but who knows.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2001-10-25 01:49:35
subject: <b>I don't think it matters</b>
body:
If he loses a hand, i really don't think that'll hinder him at all.  Just like he would make a fiery sword from the power, could he not make a hand in the same way?  Hell, he wouldn't even need a hand now that the male half of the source is &quot;untainted&quot;...now he can kick anyone's butt without thinking twice, hands or no hands.<br /><br />                                                --Fetch<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dodongo dislikes smoke.<br />         -------<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />-------</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 09:00:53
subject: <b>replace Rand's hand with....</b>
body:
A CHAINSAW!!!<br />OK, i dont think anyone is going to read this, but just in case, i hope you are familiar with Army of Darkness and Evil Dead....hehe<br />After Rand loses a hand, he will replace it with a fiery chainsaw...right ... right? it could work!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 08:20:59
subject: <b>I don't think so....</b>
body:
Mat is going 2 loos a eye so why not a hand.<br />n e ways, mat is puling the band just like rand is puling him and perin. so they won't lose him, they will just look 4 him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />What is time for a wolf?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 16:04:17
subject: <b>probably</b>
body:
I hope Rand loses THE Hand instead of A hand. He's a swordsman, a channeler, a horse-rider when necessary, and he's got to fall back on sheep farming after Tarmon Gaidon or put up with Daes Daemar, not to mention he'll have three wives. He can't handle all of that one-handed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 06:54:39
subject: <b>I agree with Shinowa</b>
body:
So what if he loses a hand. Aes Sedai always say that to heal stilling would be like healing a severed limb (I mean severing is what they used to call stilling etc in AoL)so it seems reasonable to think it could be healed (maybe with a bridge of fire - who knows)<br /><br />Even if he does lose a hand he'll still be kick-ass nasty even without channeling he's got unarmed combat sussed and I'm sure he could figure out how to use a sword with just one hand pretty well. <br /><br />Maybe instead of a &quot;Flaming Chainsaw&quot; You Loon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> he could get a hook and develop his Illianer accent he is their King after all and I'm sure they would respect him more if he was carefully when scratching his nose and kept saying things like &quot;Ah Har me hearties&quot; &quot;This looks like a good town for drinking and whoring in..&quot; etc plus he can get two eye-patches! That would be a twist. Not bloody likely though.<br /><br />Dai Lau


created: 2002-10-17 09:01:37
subject: <b>The so-called betrayal</b>
body:
Well, maybe Matt wont lose control of the band, but maybe Rand will lose control of his right hand man.  The man who controls the band.  All these theories about betrayal floating about, I'm surprised that someone didn't think of this.  Matt will abandon Rand to join the Seanchan with Tuon (his new bride).  In a way this also shows how Matt might lose his &quot;eye&quot;  He is blinded by love and turns against Rand because of it.  It's not a wacko theory, after all didn't Lanfear seem like she was betraying the Dark One, just because she loved LTT's soul reborn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 23:10:11
subject: <b>A different Hand</b>
body:
What if the Hand mentioned is something completely different...maybe Shaidar Haran, the Hand of the Dark?<br /><br /><br />Beth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />first time posting anything<br />maybe last <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-13 12:41:31
subject: <b>A hand</b>
body:
I thought through the hand problem and it seems to me that three possibilities exist.<br />1. A literal hand will be chopped off.  Rand will loss a hand, probably because of an a'dam type device being placed on him.<br />2. The Red Hand theory, though I don't think that it will happen.<br />3. The globe holding sa'angreals, one in Tremalking and the other in Cairhien, were shaped like a hand.  I can't remember the name of the key, but Rand and Ny trashed them at the end of WH.<br />Just a thought.


created: 2003-02-27 21:29:35
subject: <b>Total agreement</b>
body:
I agree completely with this theory, in the fact that it seems highly unlikely that that Our Hero would be de-handed (Unless Nynaeve comes up with yet another new form of healing?  Hmmm . . . ). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 16:16:04
subject: <b>ER um NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
your like crazy, there's no way that the Band of the Red Hand would be defeated and disbanded (disBANDed, BAND of the red hand?? sorta funny aint it?) just because Mat isn't there to be &quot;thier mommy&quot; and &quot;hold their hand while they cross the street&quot; they were a LEGENDARY military unit. The original band survived for hundreds of years, and through countless wars and battles, only during the fall of Manetheren were they finally disbanded, and only then because all of it's members perished. They band had included MANY MANY MANY heroes and obviously a ta'veren or two. So it is insane to think that just the loss of Mat, their current leader, would NOT IN ANY WAY be enough to get rid of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 16:26:12
subject: <b>eh heh heh heh</b>
body:
I forgot, to mention this: It is totally possible that the band might be destroyed in Tarmon Gaidon, however i very much doubt this. and it wouldn't have anything to to with Mat not being there (well maybe some, but sure as heck not much).<br /><br />Um, Rand would be just fine without a hand. There's a whole buttload of peoples in tons of stories that actually come back after losing a hand, and just whip up on everyone with just one hand, even if they lost their predominant hand. for instance: Maedhros, the eldest son of Feanor, was hung on the peak of Thangorodrim, he was hung by his right hand in a manacle, and they had to cut his hand off to get him down, and afterwards they said &quot;but so great was the passion that still burned in his veins, that his spirit was healed, and he wielded his sword in his left hand more deadly than it had ever been in his right hand.&quot;<br />and then there is Tyw who lost his right hand when fenrir bit it off after being tricked by the gods. In Ragna Rok, he was so deadly with his sword, that he defeated the main hell hound (the equivalent of Fenrir, except a dog not a wolf). and he did it with his LEFT hand.<br /><br />I'm not sure which hand rand will lose, but it is very symbolic. in Norse mythology, Odin loses an eye and Tyw loses a hand. this kind of thing es epotimized in MANY indo-european mythologies. a one eyed being who was the master of magical fury, and a one-handed being who was the master of lawfullness. sure the roles have been messed with and tweaked to fit the storyline, but hey ya gotta concede that it makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>A perfect example</b>
body:
I like this theory.  Ever since we found out that Galad and Rand are half-brothers, I thought it was possible that Galad could channel.  Personally I think Galad would be the perfect example of an Asha'man.  If you combine his morals, honor, and skill with a sword he is exactly what Rand wants in every Asha'man.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>The genetics (if you can follow it)</b>
body:
In the Guide, we learn that the "channeling" gene is rececive. So, "c" means "not a channeling gene" and "C" means "is a channeling gene."<br />First, we know that Morgase can channel, if ever so weakly. Thus, she is CC. Elaine can channel, so she is also CC. In order for this to happen, her father (Damodred) must have been either Cc or CC.<p>Onto Rand: He is CC, so his mother (Tigraine) must be Cc or CC. So, the possibilities for offspring between Tigraine and Damodred follow.<br />-First possibility, Tigraine Cc and Damodred Cc:<br />          T<br />      c     C<br />D c cc  cC<br />   C cC CC<br />--1/4 of their children can channel</p><p>-Second possibility, Tigraine Cc and Damodred CC:<br />          T<br />       c     C<br />D C Cc  CC<br />   C Cc  CC<br />--one half of their children can channel. This is the same if Tigraine is CC and Damodred is Cc</p><p>-Both Tigrain and Damodred are CC: All their offspring can channel.</p><p>However you cut it, there is a possibility that Galad can channel, I estimate 50%.</p><p>If we know for certain whether or not Gawyn can channel, we can clarify a bit. If Gawyn cannot channel, he is Cc, and Damodred is Cc as well. This means that Galad has a 37.5% chance of being able to channel.<br />If Gawyn can channel, it becomes very likely that Damodred is CC, giving Galad a 67.5% chance of channeling.</p>


created: 2001-06-18 17:13:06
subject: <b>bloody fool Galad</b>
body:
i think the idea of Galad channeling or becomeing an Asha'man is obsurd. or however you bloody spell it. A bunch of Mat's sisters can channel, yet he cannot. Egwene's parents cannot, and the same with Nynaeve. <br /><br />Galad is a moron with a huge ego and a bit too strong of morals. Personally i want to see Mat smack him around again. If becomeing a Whitecloak isnt bad enuf, he thinks he can take on two Shienarian veterans and beat them. Galad's entire sword-life has been in practice. Shienarians live their life fighting the Shadow. Uno could smack Galad around almost as well as Mat. I dont care where he learned how to ' dance '.<br /><br />Yes, Galad is Rand's half brother, but then think again about his relationship to Elayne. Personally i think he should smack that whiney Aes Sedai off the throne. If he's going to Break the World again, why not start with Andor? He has more of a right to the Lion Throne than anyone. Plus, any nation with such a strong Aes Sedai connection needs a good wake up call. Those bloody witches start alot of trouble. If i had my way i'd give them all a good kick.<br /><br />Sure, this has almost nothing to do with the topic, but im going to say it anyway. Aes Sedai are more egotistical than Galad. And way too self-rightious. Moiraine and Elyane telling Mat his foxhead ' belongs in the Tower for study..'. No. Nothing of the sort. That foxhead needs to go to the Tower around Mat's neck so he can take on the Tower all by himself. Ive always thought about that. Why not just Skim into the top of the tower, with 50 or so Asha'man, and take down the whole Tower? shield and capture Elaida, and you've got a hostage. Warders dont do much against those weaves the Asha'man pulled at Dumani Wells. Any Organization that justifies killing men because their goin to go insane is warped. If anything, Aes Sedai should comfort male channelers in their pain and torment, slaveing for them hand and foot. Ever man who's ever channeled since the Sealing of the Bore has paid the price of locking away the Dark One. No women made any such sacrifice. Ever grasp of saidin is another reason why the Aes Sedai should respect male channelers instead of fearing and hateing them. If nothing else, they have to admire how well Taim works. Sure, hes a Friend of the Dark, he sent men to kill Rand, but the man knows how to work. Rand asked for weapons, and he bloody well got weapons! <br /><br /><br />one final note. Rand's ability to channel has no revelance at all as to how well Galad can channel. He is the rebirth of the Dragon's soul, and channeling comes with that. Halima was Bathameal/Aginor ( i forget if they ever tell you which ), and she channels saidin. Channeling is linked to the soul, not the body. Also remember that Rand's bloody differs tremendously from Galad. Galad was born of two nobles, while Rand was the son of a Maiden and a Clan Chief. True, his mother was next in line for the throne of Andor, but the Aiel blood definetly has a large effect on him. All the Shienar's thought he was Aiel.......


created: 2001-06-21 15:52:02
subject: <b>unstoppable . . . .</b>
body:
wouldn't it be a real kick in the pants if the soon-to-be leader of the whitecloaks was a black coated Asha'man? persoanlly i think it'd be hilarious and with an army of soldier Asha'man and the backing of Galad (lorrd i hope he takes Andor's throne too) and an enitre country that used to be devoted to Tar Valon, Galad and Rand would be unstoppable. . .if only galad gets over his moral dillemas more quickly. . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 02:00:36
subject: <b>Coupl'a points</b>
body:
One;  Murgen, rececive is &quot;c&quot;, dominant is &quot;C&quot;<br />Two;  Knave, you missed one.  Loial also thought Rand was an Aielman, when they first met.  Loial says, I quote:  &quot;Are you playing a joke on me?  Sometimes you Aielmen think the oddest things are funny.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 17:48:58
subject: <b>Black Tower</b>
body:
I don't know if the part about Galad channeling is right, but I certainly like the idea of Elaida's palace becoming the new Black Tower.


created: 2001-08-31 13:25:37
subject: <b>Hm...</b>
body:
Are you sure that Galad isn't Sir Galahad?  I mean... the names kinda fit, and so does the personalities (sir Galahad was, like Galad, a noble fighter, and never did anything he considered &quot;wrong&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-10 11:02:18
subject: <b>minor correction</b>
body:
	due to my mother's conststant ungings I have read The Once and Future King (the orriganal story of King Arthur) and Galad is not based on Lancelot himself (who ends up not being as pure as he could be)  but on his son, Galahad, who also has that annoyingly never-do-wrong quality.


created: 2001-10-27 01:13:29
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Sounds good. But then again, what use would there be for knights when you have channellers? If Galad can channel, I think he would have long since shown the signs, since it's about the age when male asha'man show their ability to channel.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Shai'tan Himself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Ha ha ha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-24 07:14:19
subject: <b>T.H. White wrote the 2nd Arthurian Novels</b>
body:
To Daidaishar.<br />see title, the original arthurian stories were written by some guy called Mallory.  Unfortunately that is the extent of my knowledge.  Definately Mallory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 00:44:47
subject: <b>Hey, I might as well comment as I FINALLY saw something interesting</b>
body:
I'm glad someone finally mentioned the Galad = Galahad point...seeing as (depending on which version of the legend/story you read) Galahad was taken to Paradise body and soul because of his absolute purity and devotion to right.  Galad has that rather annoying tendancy to do what is right whatever the cost and, speaking from a sort of fundamentalist Christian/Whitecloak point of view, he walks in the light without fail.  So, now that I've blathered pointlessly on about it, I'm going to bed.<br /><br />-Me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 01:33:42
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I don't think Galad will become an Asha'man.<br />I dunno if he can channel tho...<br /><br />I think that Logain will become the male amyrlin, and that Galad will either become the next leader of the CotL, or break off from them, and with either way, he will end up joining with Perrin's army against the Shaido. <br /><br /><br />he will also kill valda as soon as he finds out what he did to morgase


created: 2002-04-24 21:41:57
subject: <b>Well of course. . . .</b>
body:
Well opf course Rand has never mentioned Galad's name.  I wouldn't even think of the idiot, he IS a whitecloak, remember?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Yes Forsaken,&quot; Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep-winter ice. &quot;Past time!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Heroes are the people who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />     -Silverlight<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 04:32:28
subject: <b>The Black Tower</b>
body:
I don't think they would call iot the Black Tower though, and they might even do something even more innovative, and link, to create the Palace with the power, and then name it something else. The Black Tower sounds too dark to me, and if they ally themselves with Aes Sedai they obviously wouldn't be evil.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 03:46:26
subject: <b>No way...</b>
body:
Sorry but I have to disagree completely, at least on the Galad channeling part... If Galad ever found out he had an ability to channel he would do what male channelers did in practically every culture before Rand turned up.... Go to the Blight and get killed killing some Shadowspawn. That at least is what I think would be the result if the Spark amnifested itself in him... If he can learn, hmm... that MIGHT be different....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Silver"><i>Harsh world be damned,<br />let's make a stand...</i></font> <br /><br /><font color="orange">Saknar Korybj&#246;rnen&#8482;<br /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 21:16:48
subject: <b>Some valid points...</b>
body:
Also, his use of his blade when fighting, and the lack of emotion described when he is fighting could point to him using Rand's trick of the Flame and Void - a technique used to channel by male channellers...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Spot Shaidar Haran<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> is my dad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 22:01:13
subject: <b>Huh</b>
body:
Since when did Galad know he was Rand's brother????<br />Rand only knows because someone told him in confidence about his mother.


created: 2003-04-08 07:39:58
subject: <b>Whitecloack's oath</b>
body:
I remember reading in tDR when Perrin, Moiraine and the rest chase Rand they get to a town (don't remember the name) where three Whitecloacks &quot;resine&quot; their &quot;job&quot; and Moiraine ask &quot;I thought Whitecloacks take their oath FOR LIFE.&quot; which means that even if Galad wanted to quit the Whitecloack thing to be an Ashaman he couldn't.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-18 13:12:03
subject: <b>cool plot</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but I had to vote &quot;no&quot; on this one.  <br /><br />If Galad had the ability inborn, some signs of his &quot;wilder channeling&quot; would have manifested themselves already.  While you can argue that maybe these signs HAVE happened, there is no support in the books for them.  Since the books are all that matter, case closed on him being a wilder.<br /><br />If Galad has the ability to learn, how would anybody ever discover this?  I can't think of any references in the books where Galad's opinion of the One Power and channelers is expressed.  But whether he hates channelers (unlikely with Egwene and Elayne), loves them (as a Whitecloak, unlikely), or is indifferent to them (gets my vote), it is another HUGE step to wanting to be one.  And let's face it, he would have to volunteer to take the test.<br /><br />Let me remind everyone that his dislike of the White Tower stems from the AS plotting and manipulating, NOT from their ability to channel.<br /><br />However, even though I disagree with this possibility, I do have to say that I REALLY enjoyed it.  It is full of drama, tension, bloodlines, hatred and power.  I can see why the image of these two brothers standing next to each other in radiant glory &amp; power is so appealing.  Makes me drool just thinking about it. <br /><br />But sorry, no.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-18 13:15:19
subject: <b>one more note</b>
body:
I really liked the observation about the silver sword(s).  That in itself made me consider the possibility.  I want to believe this theory holds merit because it sounds so GEWD, but I just can't.  Grr...<br /><br />I wish to bite something.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-28 19:46:31
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I've always just assumed that Galad can channel...of course, whether he will or not is anyone's guess. But he could only have the ability to learn it, not the inborn spark. Rand started showing signs of channelling right away in EotW, and Galad is a lot older. Since nothing is mentioned of him channelling so far, we can pretty much assume he is not a wilder. <br /><br />However, whether or not you believe Rand can channel because of genes or because of Lews Therin, Tigraine DID go to the White Tower to study. I don't have my books with me to check the minute facts, but the heir to the throne of Andor has always studied at the White Tower (as is mentioned several times by Elayne and *I think* Morgase) and since Tigraine was the heir before she ran off to the Waste she must have went at some point. Since she came home relatively fast and got married, she must have either 1) not been able to channel or 2) had very limited abiilites, like Morgase. My guess is the &quot;limited&quot; ability, which she may have passed on to Galad.<br /><br />As for Galad taking over the Whitecloaks, I don't see it happening. Yeah, it would be cool, but I don't recall ANY Whitecloak (besides Galad) who doesn't suffer apoplexy at the suggestion of Aes Sedai. Even the ones who we don't hear talking about AS are arrogant and cold. I think that Whitecloaks are for the most part AS haters and would never change regardless of what Galad tried to do. Most likely, he'd get killed by a legion of Questioners for &quot;abandoning the Light&quot;.  I can't imagine all these Whitecloaks secretly thinking channellers are alright and hiding it from all the other WCs, and simply turning around and following Galad when he comes to power, ESPECIALLY if he can channel.<br /><br />I vote for him leaving the WCs and ganging up with Rand, whether as a channeller or not (he's still a good fighter).<br /><br />And I know it's not this post but I just had to say it...Galad and Berelain...YUCK. Run Galad, run.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~Nierlisse~<br /><br />&quot;What can I say? I did it all for the wookies.&quot;<br />&quot;The wookies?!?&quot;<br />&quot;The wookies.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 17:10:05
subject: <b>Whitecloaks take over the Legion</b>
body:
This is just an idea I got reading this post, and my first post. What if this post happens and Galad becomes one of the leaders of the Black Tower, then brings the Whitecloaks into it, testing them for the ability etc. Then the ones without the ability become a sort of mix between warders and the Legion of the Dragon. In that they join, fail the test then learnd their prefrence of weapons and bond/fight for the Towers. This idea isn't fully put together but I will try to fill in the gaps more and possibly post it as a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-16 05:19:25
subject: <b>Wilders</b>
body:
We know that most wilders form a block to controle their channeling, like Naynaeve having to be mad to channel.<br /><br />Now this is a big streach, but could Galad's goodness be a block? I dont mean that he has to be &quot;good&quot; to channel, but the reverse, when he lets hes emotions controle what he does, not his ideas of right a wrong, he channels.  Now the spark usually manifest its self in men around the age of 17-20 right?  What if it manifested its self early in Galad, say around 14 or 15, Old enough to notice that odd things happen when he gets emotional but not old enough to deduce why.  Now these odd things happen to be what he wants, but is natural sense of right and wrong tell him that it sould not have happened, so he trained himself to do things that were right, not what he wanted to do, untill it became what he was.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-01 13:32:43
subject: <b>Correction: The genetics</b>
body:
This is a correction for Murgen:<br />It has already been pointed out that the recessive trait for channeling would be little c and the dominant trait for not channeling would be big C; I would like to point out that this correction makes Galad have a 25% to 50% chance of channeling.  All the evidence, combined with the fact that both his parents have other children that can channel, does make it likely Galad will discover his ability to channel.


created: 2006-07-12 11:58:46
subject: <b>Galad and Saidin</b>
body:
I think Galad can channel, or at least touch Saidin. When Galad fought Valda, RJ describes the void and how Galad can feel everything in great detail. Just like Rand, and just as the Aes Sedai feel things in a hyperreal way as they touch the male/female parts of the true source. If touching the void was something all could do why not describe it when Mat or Perrin fight.<br /><br />I also think Lan does something similar when he touches Ko'Di in New Spring.


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>thom and elaida</b>
body:
this theory is making me think back to a theory i had quite awhile ago but never posted anywhere<p>thom left caemlyn because his nephew needed help</p><p>elaida's foretelling is that the royal family is key to winning the last battle</p><p>thom is morgase's lover and a powerful player of the game of houses</p><p>elaida feels she needs to be closer to morgase and her family</p><p>solution: get thom away from caemlyn in a way that he's not welcome back by gentling the nephew that can channel(something that thom wouldn't want anyone to know about)</p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">boo8 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-18 07:02:49
subject: <b>Elaida and Moriaine's letter</b>
body:
It would seem that the above facts imply that Elaida had a hand in the gentling of men who could channel, and one can argue then perhaps she also had a hand in regards to Owyn also.<br /><br />The letter Moiriane sent to Thom holds knowledge regarding this no doubt (I'm sure someone else has brought this important piece to light on either the MB or the theory post before) and it is yet to be seen what Thom shall do with that information.<br /><br />The real question which is a curious one...can Thom channel?  (Again I believe this may have been brought up once before).  He may not be a wilder but may have the ability to learn.  <br /><br />Anyway the excerpt from A Crown of Swords certainly hints that Elaida has gotten her hands dirty in the jam jar (so to speak) and that this may in fact end up kicking her in the rear.  <br /><br />Isn't karma just wonderful! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I personally however would like to see the 2 possible outcomes regarding Thom, the letter and Elaida.<br /><br />1) Somehow he is reunited with Moiriane (via any one of the theories flying around about our favourite Blue sister and the Fins) and together they kick some Red Ajah BUTT!<br /><br />2) If Thom is smart, and we know he is...he may use the information to implicate Elaida by passing it onto Egwene and the Hall (should they stall in their attempts to bring the ursurper Amyrlin down).  It seems there are more ways then one to bring down a throne...and certainly an Amyrlin Seat too...and politics is often a course of action.<br /><br />Hopefully Jordan will make the confrontation or accusation against Elaida an enjoyable one.  Who knows...maybe Joline (now bonded to Logain) will be so pissed with Elaida she may break her silence (assuming of course she was involved...but I have suspicions she may have been) and then the shiite will really hit the fan!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-07 23:28:44
subject: <b>Thom can't channel</b>
body:
RJ's own words were 'There's no way in hell Thom can channel.'  It's in the FAQ, if you wanna check it out.  It certainly sounds like Elaida was part of some illegal gentling, and it WOULD be great if she knew about gentline Owyn, although I don't think those quotes are enough to convict her of him.  Still, she's my favorite character to hate, so more evil power to her.


created: 2001-07-29 00:11:07
subject: <b>nice catch</b>
body:
The details and clues are spread out enough that this isn't an obvious foreshadow, but I think you are correct. Perhaps after Elaida is deposed, Thom will happen to run into her, and leave short one (or more likely several) knives.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />LTT


created: 2001-09-23 01:40:01
subject: <b>Just A Point</b>
body:
I thought that everyone knew that Elaida gentled Owyn.  I remember Thom saying something along the lines of &quot;you'll pay Elaida&quot; in one of the books.  Oh well.  Since i'm here already )and am an incredibally lazy man) i'll state a theory of my own that most-likely has been widely discussed (unbeknownst to me) and either accepted wot-wide, or scoffed at wot-wide. well...lets go:<br /><br />I think that Aram is a darkfriend.  Why you ask?  I'll tell you why.  Aram is a tinker, who according to everyone (his own relatives said it) has a troubled mind.  Most people (i think) took this to mean the way o the leaf ed him off, and thats why he picked up a sword, but me?  I think he swore alleigence to the big frickin dark one.  Egwene says someone dangerous is moving close to perrin (in her crazy dreams) and though most people (again.;...i think) took this to mean Aram, they took it in the wrong light.  In the prologue to TGH, Bors sees a young male tinker at the DF social, and c'mon, if any tinker is gonna be a DF, its gonna be the one who is the liest (i.e. Aram, who started off &quot;surprisingly talented&quot; at using a sword).  I have a theory on why the dark one is a puny weakling compared to the creator, but that is for another day.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />the town drunk<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />a man who undoubtedly made countless errors<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />the idiotic scholar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />a wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />a man who sucks at signatures(i dont even know how)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 12:11:35
subject: <b>Just a little bit more</b>
body:
Just to say that Logain has bonded Toveine Gaval not Joline Maza, who is just escaping with Mat in ebou Dar.<br />I believe that Toveine's penance may have something to do with Owyn's illegal gentling.


created: 2005-04-13 20:54:13
subject: <b>Reds out of control...</b>
body:
We know that Reds did stuff wrong--Tovine's thoughts right before Logain attacked he refer to<br />(paraphrasing here)<br />*  We did what we had to, burn those who thought the Black Ajah were involved<br />*  20 years ago<br />*  Elaida danced uncaught to the Amyrlin Seat<br /><br />So this is the &quot;Black Ajah induced the Reds to murder Sierein Vayu&quot; thing that Chesmal was going on about.  And Elaida was involved.<br />And she was involved in extra-legal gentling.  Sounds like the Reds have been seriously out of control for awhile now.


created: 2009-01-22 06:52:47
subject: <b>extra-legal gentling and Tsutama's eyes</b>
body:
Toveine was only partly right. Galina would already have been the Highest at the time. It was on her orders to hunt for men who could channel on the off-chance they'd get the dragon reborn. Elaida, being somewhat higher in the power than most sisters would also have played a leading role. Of course since only a select few were aware that he would just have been a baby then, the hunters were off by about twenty years. As it was, when the Reds were found out by the rest of the White Tower, all the Sitters at the time were exiled into penance. That included Toveine and Tsutama(the current highest). Elaida got away scotfree because she held no position at the time.<br />Now that their exile has ended, all three went back to the tower but Toveine was unlucky enough to be sent to the Black Tower. Tsutama however, has been elected the new Highest. And judging by her eyes(described as being that of a hunter rather than simply afraid) she's figured out that the Red Ajah had been conned into doing the Black's dirty work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 01:17:03
subject: <b>mesaana = vandene</b>
body:
I think Mesaana could have easliy just killed Vandene and then used inverted weaves to look like her.  Rand has proven this can be done when he had to find Elayne in Andor. (sorry, i forgot which book)  Also, in one of the earlier books, moiraine is visiting vandene and adeleas and there was a draghkar that had been warded


created: 2001-11-13 00:14:08
subject: <b>Not likely...</b>
body:
Adealas(SP?) and Vandene are identical twins and have the close relationship that twins are supposed to have.  Sure, Messy could've done a disguise that would've fooled most people.  But not Vandene's sister.<br /><br />I know there are those who might say that THAT was the reason Adealas was killed.  But for that theory to hold water, Adealas would have to have been killed much earlier.<br /><br />Vandene simply CANNOT be Mesaana.  Adealas would either have blown the whistle on her much earlier.  Or she would've died much earlier.<br /><br />Vandevere<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> Vandevere <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> If the human brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't understand it.</font><p><a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/u/436696/" target="_blank">Vandevere's Fanfiction</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 06:41:38
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
There has been some theories about Adealas being BA.<br />That would make this theory hold water.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 00:50:30
subject: <b>er</b>
body:
Yeah we heard you the first time,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 16:07:00
subject: <b>Not a chance.</b>
body:
Vandene has been known for years.  She was present long before the Forsaken were freed.  Do you truely think her twin sister, Adeleas, wouldn't notice if she suddenly started acting completely out of character?  I do.  The Forsaken are ALL (new) characters.  Corlan Dashiva was an unknown 'farmer', Halima was unknown, Jasin Natael was unknown, Gawyn had never heard of Lord Gabril, and Lord Brend appeared out of nowhere.  None of these characters had any history prior to their arrival.  Think about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 15:03:00
subject: <b>Good point</b>
body:
Good point geoff_mc.  I was uncertain, maybe thinking Danelle, maybe Vandene, but that point makes me think otheriwse.  Good job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When you start to hear voices in your head telling you to proclaim yourself as the Dragon Reborn, you know you have been on this site for WAY too long</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-16 16:29:44
subject: <b>Rand + Vandene = Adeleas - Nynaeve / Egwene</b>
body:
I personally think that Danelle is Mesaana.. <br />But it would be cool if she were Rand who was impersonating<br />Vandene, who was impersonating Adeleas... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-10 05:49:39
subject: <b>age</b>
body:
this is an interesting theory and one that has alot of evidence however one problem i see (apart from that vandene has a warder but i think some else has set that straight with the passing of the bond) my problem is that the sisters are both very old and the forsaken were only broken free not that long ago and they are both well known to most older sedai. just a little problem but otherwise it seems faorly plausible


created: 2003-04-09 21:11:00
subject: <b>it is possible..</b>
body:
<b> assuming vandene is messy: </b><br /><br />if adeleas is BA, then she wouldn't have blown messy's cover. if adeleas is BA, then the warded draghkar incident would make MUCH more sense...<br /><br />we already know that messy has no problem killing off BA members who fail her/disobey her (case in point: she nearly slays alviarin before SH intervenes) so maybe she had some reason to kill both the BA she was &quot;interrogating&quot; and adeleas.<br /><br />if i may venture, perhaps messy &quot;got rid of&quot; vandene and then assumed her place, to have a secure place in the tower. adeleas, naturally, would harbor some resentment - perhaps this resentment became too much of an issue, and messy had to put a stop to it.<br /><br />-all other theories notwithstanding, of course. there are some good ones about the current mistress of novices in tar valon being messy-<br /><br /><br /><br /><b> regarding the warder: </b><br /><br />i remember somewhere (in one of the more recent books, from a BA POV) that there was a black aes sedai with a non-darkfriend warder, and that she had to keep herself hidden from him while hangin out with liandrin and the gang.. so it is entirely possible that vandene/messy's warder may not have known who/what she was.<br /><br />of course, that could be a moot point in any case, as some BA have darkfriend warders.<br /><br />we need a nice juicy POV....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-slider<br /><br />Yes, Rand al'Thor. I hate you with all of my heart. I do. And I always will.<br />     -Aviendha</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>RJ's comment on bonding</b>
body:
RJ has stated in a public interview (Elf Fantasy Fair, April 7th (?) 2001 in Alphen aan de Rijn in the Netherlands) that growing older is NOT, I repeat NOT, in the list of benefits from bonding.<p><img src="images/viking.gif" /> Artsapat <img src="images/viking.gif" /><br />"The Golden Axe"<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Artsapat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The Golden Axe&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Cuius rei demonstrationem mirabilem sane detexi, hanc marginis exiguitas non caperet.&quot;<br /><br />Visit me at Artsapat.Hyves.nl (Dutch)</font></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 17:46:57
subject: <b>What about min's ability?</b>
body:
It may be the the ability min has has some benefit besides just knowing what will happen to people...we don't know that yet so maybe this could be a wya out of dying early. I suppose we'll just have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Ardent Zealot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Man of Metamorphosis <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> He who is Moridin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The All-Powerful Narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 23:31:03
subject: <b>Nynaeve and Lan</b>
body:
Rand and Min are in exactly the same position as Nynaeve and Lan.  Lan is already considerably older than Nynaeve, and at the moment she looks to be spending the vast majority of her life by herself. However I do not believe that Nynaeve, the woman who believes that she can Heal anything will sit back and watch her husband age and die in front of her eyes and not try to do something about it.<br />


created: 2003-11-03 18:53:51
subject: <b>Men Slowing??</b>
body:
I havent read anywhere in WOT that male channelers have the slowing as well.  Maybe Rand and Min will be fine together


created: 2005-02-17 17:04:39
subject: <b>Min's death</b>
body:
I think that only way we will ever know if Min dies or not is if she dies before TG, and if she does it's not from old age!<br />(RJ won't stick around until she is seventy or something, or I hope not)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat <br />John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the US Navy, 1981-1987 <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-29 23:04:16
subject: <b>On long living</b>
body:
We know that channeling slows people, men and women, read the Guide and the parts about the Forsaken.  And as far as Elayne taking the throne, she hasn't yet, and Morgase is a channeler who will be around for a couple centuries yet(deaths from disease, swords, etc...not pending).  Perhaps Elayne will never take the throne, maybe Rand and the threesome will go off to Shara or somewhere.


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>it is quite obvious</b>
body:
on page 710 paperback of the eye of the world Algelmar is explaining Lan's history. He says Jain CHARIN already being called Jain Farstrider brought in Cowin Fairheart. I doubt Robert Jordan would simply use the same last name on both characters for no reason therefor i think it is pretty obvious that Noal CHARIN is Jain Farstrider.


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Oooooh</b>
body:
Hmm, I never really thought of that.  *Never thought Tam was JF of course*  Good idea man.  *I kept it short and not confusing!*<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-05-16 15:11:13
subject: <b>What is Mat going to do now???</b>
body:
The next question, of course, is what is Mat going to do with a legendary traveler such as Jain? I mean, how are Jain's adventures going to help him give up half the light of the world to save the world????<br /><br />You ever notice how it seems that Seanchan is connected to Randland by means of the Blight??? Didn't Jain travel through the Blight? Could it just be possible that Jain knows a little bit more about, say Seanchan than we do? Or maybe about Shara? Maybe he will introduce us to some new allies?<br /><br />Anima Sedai<br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 14:00:36
subject: <b>I agree completely!</b>
body:
*cackle* The *exact* same thought occurred to me!! ...Umm... that's it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Kurenai


created: 2001-08-02 14:29:30
subject: <b>Is Noal not Asmodean?</b>
body:
He has gleeman skills - plays instruments &amp; tells stories &amp; appears when an awful lot of other dark friends appear. He knows an awful lot about the age of legends, etc. Noal also looks as if all the bones in his body had been broken - surely the Dark one would do this to him before bringing him back?!! Mat puts an awful lot of trust in him from the beginning - is he not setting himself up for disaster?


created: 2001-08-13 04:23:36
subject: <b>reply to Anima Sedai</b>
body:
Please, please, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Seanchan was west of you-know-where (the R word), because they come by boat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 11:12:03
subject: <b>I think people presume the planet is spherical.</b>
body:
so you can go in any direction to get anywhere, if you've got long enough.<br /><br />Blah blah blah...........<br /><br />obviously up (off planet) and down (through planet) would be difficult though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 12:06:23
subject: <b>noal asmodean</b>
body:
noal is NOT asmodean reborn. he was killed by Graendal on the Great Lord's orders. the DO says himself ASMODEAN WAS A TRAITOR. he wouldnt resurrect a traitor. Noal is jain, the timeframe is perfect, and noal is also malkieri, I bet he was one of the bodyguards who took Lan out of the blight...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Slayer of Idiots<br />Drinker of 40s<br />Guardian of the Light<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 00:05:18
subject: <b>huum</b>
body:
i know it must be a kind of stupid question...but who is jain farstrider?????<br />i juste found that there were books about him..but i don't have time to read all the 9 books again<br />thx


created: 2002-09-18 05:38:13
subject: <b>Noal is Farstrider and Tuon's hand</b>
body:
Cause he has a big nose and so does Tuon's Hand that controls her seekers.  He showed up the same day as Tuon, knows about Seachan and is going along with Mat and Tuon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ynot Takeit<br /><br />from the village of Uall.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 16:01:54
subject: <b>noal not a bodyguard</b>
body:
Master Beytor said &quot;I bet [Jain Farstrider] was one of the bodyguards who took Lan out of the blight...&quot;<br /><br />i have always got the impression from Lord Agelmer's recounting of Lan's life and also from &quot;A New Spring&quot; that Lan's baodyguards all died before he was very old, except for the one in the New Spring.


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Great Theory!</b>
body:
Most of the time, I don't agree with the theories I see posted. This one however, is wonderful! I hadn't thought of this, but when I read it, everything clicked. I showed it to a few friends, and they all agree. Good job! <img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-08-19 15:28:41
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with this theory 97% and although ive found others on this site interesting and tempting, this is the first one to jump out at me as correct right away. good job, i missed it but im glad someone caught it. Makes perfect sense.


created: 2001-10-17 13:38:08
subject: <b>Gholam</b>
body:
So, if Semirhage knows about Mat, could she be responsible for unleashing the Gholam on the poor guy?<br />Yeah, I am kinda obsessed with the gholam.<br />Where's he been for 3000 years, stuck in the Sealing?<br />Who's been keeping him?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Stoplight at ninety miles an hour<br />On a bridge that was going up.<br />This was my life.<br />I have it now. I understand.<br />This thought that crushes my mind was once a man,<br />And your name goes on forever<br />And your name goes on and on.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 08:55:21
subject: <b>Good job!</b>
body:
Very convincing. Good research and well built up analysis. I certainly believe it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 14:48:09
subject: <b>The Gholam</b>
body:
The Gholam was in a stasis box, I think it was Sammael that found the box and turned the gholam loose.<br /><br />Krane


created: 2002-11-16 10:11:48
subject: <b>Another clue</b>
body:
<br />The prophecy at the end of LoC says: &quot;The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and the storm clouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted cast down, what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.&quot; <br /><br /><br />In case you missed it: <br /><br />&quot;Beyond the horizon... serpents nestle in the bosom&quot;. <br /><br /><br />I have a couple problems, though.<br />1- Who says Ogier can sense Forsaken? All the Ogier are staying in the stedding, not just the ones from the Forsaken controlled cities. <br />2- Tuon herself thinks the Seanchan nobles don't understand the relationship between her family and their Truthspeakers. Remember the Emperor getting slapped by his? So of course Suroth would seem shocked by Anath's behavior, whether she knows Anath is Semirhage or not. If Suroth knows, which is unlikely, she would still have to act shocked, or stand out as different. If she doesn't know, it normal behavior.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-24 02:00:13
subject: <b>about Aran'gar</b>
body:
Just as a side note, in your theory you said Aran'gar had Mat in his/her grasp at least once.  Well, he/she was interested in him, and, I'm pretty sure, tried to kill him, but he had the amulet.  Which leads me to believe that the amulet can stop both halves of the source.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Counterpoint to Slayer assasination</b>
body:
If that's the case, then why was the tea drugged?  That doesn't seem like something Slayer would do.


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Vandene is a Darkfriend!!!!</b>
body:
Vandene killed Adeleas and Ispan. She also hid the Draghar from detection by chanellers and warders she is evil!!! I have been suspicios of her ever since the draghar-Moraine incidence did anyone notice how weird she acted.


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Come on now...</b>
body:
There's a very good reason Slayer had to have some mysterious Darkfriend drug the tea before hand... If Slayer just popped into the tent and found a consious, alert Adeleas she would absolutly crush him with the Power.  Just to remind everyone, Slayer isn't Power-proof like the gholam.  His job was to actually kill Ispan and whoever was guarding her (Adeleas).


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Info from WH</b>
body:
Chapter: Out of Thin Air Page 448<br />"He had especially enjoyed killing those two Aes Sedai in The Stone of Tear.....That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that.  Neither one of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often."  <p>This leads me to think that had Slayer (either personality) had killed Ispam and Aldeas he would have mentioned them too.  Therefor need to look beyond Slayer for that killing.</p>


created: 2001-06-25 03:00:04
subject: <b>Agreement</b>
body:
To add to the most recent post, that Isam liked to kill the  'Two Aes Sedai' which are the Black Ajah pple, means that he is fast enough to avoid the One Power i.e he is fast enough to escape into TAR with a thought like embracing the Source. Also, a good chance of killing Vandene is there since neither the B. Ajah ladies or Vandene knew about the existence of ISam. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 23:04:32
subject: <b>Death by the One Power</b>
body:
I was under the impression that they were killed with the power and that taht was the real reason they were looking for a Black Ajah killer read that scene in Winter's Heart when the two new novices bring their thoughts to the light of day?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 03:54:53
subject: <b>Isam looks like Lan right?</b>
body:
Slayer/Luc remembers that Isam killed the Aes Sedia in Tear.  Can Slayer appear in the flesh as Isam?  There seems to be evidence that he can't, but if he can, perhaps Slayer/Isam showed up with some tea and Adeleas thought it was Lan and drank the tea and gave some to Ispan.  Adeleas was just unlucky to be on guard duty that night so she had a painless death from the tea.  Ispan on the other hand was killed painfully because she was captured and was giving information to the Aes Sedia.  The DO seems to like using Slayer to kill BA.


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
But please! Yes Rand will die, but during Tarmon Gai'don there will be immense use of balefire, which will cause him to wake up again just as Mat and Aviendha did during the attack on Rahvin. "Twice dawns the day..." and so on as the prophecies say. So poor Min will have to live with the fact that she'll die earlier. Or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Emyrlin<br /><i>Who is dwelling in the shadows of the Black Hills...</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 00:04:09
subject: <b>Maybe Death can be healed</b>
body:
We have been constantly told that death could not be healed maybe in the last battle that will change.


created: 2001-06-26 17:32:45
subject: <b>about Min dying</b>
body:
Sometimes I think some of you people never even read the books.  In book 6, a novice has a foretelling of Min, Elayne and Avaindha standing over a boat with Rand in it AFTER the last battle.  So obviously Min will be there too.  You cant have it spelled out any clearer than that.


created: 2001-07-23 10:23:30
subject: <b>But the bond...</b>
body:
If Rand is not to die at Tarmon Gaidon (I'm not sure what I belive there) but to live happily ever after whith his girls, then maybe Min will be the first to die. But can't it be possible for the bond Elayne did using the one Power to give Min a longer life?<br />The bond seems to be the same as a warder-bond and warders get all kinds of strange things  by that bond. Why can't Min?<br /><br />Hm...did I make any sense?


created: 2001-09-07 16:21:50
subject: <b>Blaefire...</b>
body:
I agree with Emyrlin. Balefire will definetly be it. Allways thought so, allways will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 17:45:06
subject: <b>Way out on a limb here...</b>
body:
Here's a thought. The Eelfinn (at least I think it is them) can grant wishes, right? Suppose Rand gets killed somehow and Moiraine (who Min says Rand needs to succeed) being supposedly trapped in the Tower of Ghenji somehow wishes him back. Like I said, that's way out on a limb.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-19 11:18:00
subject: <b>Min and the power</b>
body:
Min's visions are reminiscent of Elaida and that other biddy who saw Rand's birth. Maybe Min is tapped into a small part of the Power nearer the source of it than normal chanellers. Either way, she is likely to live a long while. On a tangent, perrin is als likely to live quite a while (I'm equating him with Wolverine from X-Men). <br />Min will live long, don't you worry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 17:43:25
subject: <b>Min lives for 300 + years</b>
body:
I disagree..  One of the advantages about the warder bond stated in the glossary is that the warder's aging slows<br /> down.   But that's with a non-channeler bonded by a channeler.  Min is part of a channeler/channeler/channeler/<br />channeler/non-channeler bond.  Rand/Aviendha/Elayne/Alanna will slow naturally so perhaps the excess years will<br />get dumped on min.<br />


created: 2002-08-04 13:34:27
subject: <b>Rand and the three girls</b>
body:
I don't think it really matters, the fact that the three girls love Rand. <br /><br />Elayne will be to busy 'ruling' to be much with him (on a sidetrack...will Elayne's kids end up like Prince Charles? At retirment age or even dead before thier Mum is ready to give them a go on the throne, seeing as she will live for a long long time?) <br /><br />and Aviendha will be so busy chivving the remaining Aiel into some sort of nation that I think, until Min dies, she will mostly have Rand to herself. Then Aviendha will take over, and Elayne will still be too busy. I think Aviendha would see the justice of letting Min have Rand on her own 'cause she was goin to die first.<br /><br />So, Rand + Min at first then Rand + Aviendha with Elayne dropping by now and then once Min dies.


created: 2002-09-15 01:57:32
subject: <b>More on the Warder bond</b>
body:
Since Elayne, Avhienda, Allana, and Rand can all Channel, and they're all bonded together(although in a roundabout way with Alanna) maybe Min will get the age slowing of the Warder bond only times 4. That would make her live near as long as an Aes Sedai, and so solve the problem of her dying(which would suck, because she's the best of Rand's 3 girls).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 21:40:42
subject: <b>min....</b>
body:
Well I doubt Min will die....first of all cuz Egwene's dreams say so...and second of all cuz she's way too cool to die.  But can we at least for the death of Faile?? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 17:00:15
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
We all wish for her to die, you know... So kill Faile and let Min live!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat <br />John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the US Navy, 1981-1987 <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-30 07:29:27
subject: <b>About the Bondage...</b>
body:
Okay People listen up. Min is not going to die okay because of the foretelling and because Rand wouldn't let it happen.<br /><br />Second Faile isn't all that bad but she's not going to die either cause of one of min's views about Perrin was that he was going to tame the falcon and the eagle.<br /><br />And Last she is not going to die because even if she can't see the aruas around her and yes i'm pretty sure there is some she has the bond wich have the same affect on the rest of them as it has on her.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-sister to a_fan_of_rolan_dcs<br />Bonded to Ashaman Joey<br />Jenna al'Majere Accepted to the Grey Tower Hoping to be a Greenie.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Waygates</b>
body:
The waygates were made outside of the stedding.  It says that over and over again in more than one of the book.  The men did not channel inside the stedding to make the waygates, they made them outside because they couldn't channel inside of steddings.  <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just wanting some clarification</b>
body:
At what point did Verin lie? I can't recall any lie that she's been caught in yet could some one fill me in on where she is thought to have lied, and about what.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-16 14:58:23
subject: <b>Lying Verin</b>
body:
Verin has lied on more than one occassion.  Starting in TGH, when she tells Perrin that Moiraine sent her.  It was then revealed later after Falme that Moiraine didn't send her to watch over the boys.  Lie #1.<br /><br />I'm sure there have been others, but this all points that Verin has somehow gotten around the 3 Oaths.  Or, she is not really bound by them.  Maybe only by one of them.  Clearly she can lie.  Secondly, the Sisters are not supposed to use the OP on each other. (or they are not supposed to use it as a weapon) Verin clearly uses it as &quot;a weapon&quot; when she uses it as Compulsion on the datsang Sisters.<br /><br />Who is she and what Ajah is she a part of???????<br /><br />Anima Sedai<br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 19:30:52
subject: <b>Verin's lie?</b>
body:
I believe that RJ has stated quite clearly that the business of Verin telling Perrin that she was sent by Moiraine was a miswrite on his part, and not intended to be a lie of Verin's. It then follows that RJ's bother to state this endorses the concept that Verin has not clearly lied. I can find nothing else that she has said which could be a clear lie. Yes, she has many secrets, has a hidden past, and misdirects folks left and right, but that is the most common behavior of Aes Sedai if you take the entire story as a whole. When Aleis Barsala in Far Madding seeks her name, her answer is, &quot;All of you may call me Eadwina.&quot;, which isn't a lie. She wasn't directly asked her name, which makes the ruse even easier.<br /><br />By the way, isn't it interesting, in the prologue of PoD, when Verin learns that Katerine has escaped, that while she is clearly shocked, what she says is, &quot;She's Red!, and neither a coward nor weak in the Power! The Car'a'carn could be in danger!...&quot; Never be fooled by Verin, she thinks clearly at all times. The only reason she would ever think to call Rand the Car'a'carn is when speaking to Aiel.<br />I'm really tempted to theorize that that escape was facilitated by Alviarin at Mesaana's order, which would name Katerine as BA. But that's off the topic.<br /><br />No way is Verin really Gitara Moroso, but that has already been laid to rest by previous posts. Others have suggested that she is a dreamwalker, a thought not unsupported by her knowledge of the various dream ter'angreal stolen by the BA, and Coreanin Nedeal's (sp?) notes on them. Some say she IS Coreanin, who had hidden out in T'A'R for a very long time, and still others suggest that she found an Oath Rod in T'A'R and released herself of her oaths. None of that would explain the long-standing order of banishment in the name of Verin Mathwen at Far Madding, so I tend to doubt it. <br /><br />More plausible is that it seems every sister out there likes knowing things or having things that no other sister knows about, and the dream things were her private horde of power. That she chose to share those things with Elayne and Nynaeve do leave questions unanswered, like how close to Siuan and Moiraine was she, or how much did she know of their work without their knowledge? But for me, one question it answers is that she definitely isn't a Darkfriend. She has done too many things that support Rand and the other Two Rivers folks. Most strongly in this is when she is considering whether to dose Cadsuane in Aleis' home on the Heights in Far Madding, until Cadsuane reveals with no shading of truth her intentions for Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 14:26:30
subject: <b>Katerine is BA</b>
body:
Just a small comment on &quot;call me tim's&quot; post.  Katerine is revealed as BA by her own thoughts and her conversation with Galina when the Tower assembly is on its way to Carehien (sp?) to eventually kidnap Rand.  That being true, its probably a good bet that her escape was facilitated by Alvi, especially since the escape apparently happens at the same time that Alvi disappears from the Tower.<br /><br />On the main theorey, Verin isn't the foreteller Giatra Moroso from Camelyn who sent Luc and Tiagraine off on their fatefull journeys.  As someone else pointed out, Moiraine and Siuan saw her die after fortelling Rand's birth.<br /><br />Verin is one of my favorite characters and she is definitely on the side of the light.  Her mistake wasn't sending Luc or Tigraine on their journeys (can that even be called a mistake), but I don't think we have enough info to say what it was yet.


created: 2001-10-21 06:31:30
subject: <b>Darkfriend?</b>
body:
Verin may not be darkfriend, but saying she isn't because she's done too much to help out the guys is not quite right.  The dark knows just as well as the light that the only way things are gonna get sorted is at Tar'mon Gaidon, and so Verin may just be pushing for the last battle.  Or maybe not.  Just my thoughts.<br /><br />Topdeck.


created: 2002-02-15 18:02:05
subject: <b>Lucs Identity!!!</b>
body:
The thing is, when , Luc, Stalker, Isam first reveals himself, he is said by Perrin to look like Rand, Aviendha  also makes a comment about a man looking like Rands grumpy uncle, when weaving a Gateway... So Luc is, Luc/Isam/Stalker is Rands Father... <br />B-sides, I always wanted to b <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />= when i was a kid, but as an adult I tend to look more like... Well, whatever!!!


created: 2002-03-27 22:22:44
subject: <b>Luc's identity revealed again</b>
body:
Luc/Slayer is the one who killed Rands father not his father.  Recall (cant remeber where exactly) that it is stated that Rands father is killed in the Blight because he wouldnt fight someone who looked like his dead wife.  That was Luc.


created: 2002-04-11 09:13:22
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I agree with quite a bit of it, except the mistake 70 years ago couldn't have been sending Luc to the blight.  Because that was done somewhere around 5 years before Rand was born (give or take) which would put it at 30, at the latest, years ago.  The rest is good though.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 10:00:24
subject: <b>Luc's identity</b>
body:
I was under the impression it was already decided Luc was Rand's Uncle or something.  Wasn't he Tigraine's brother?  I don't have the book here, and it's been a couple months since I read that passage.<br /><br />I also think Verin is still bound to the Oath Rod, there's a few instances where she convinces herself in her mind her words  are true either by completing the sentence mentally or rearranging the words so they're true but can easily be taken out of context.  I feel she would only go through such pains only if she were still bound. <br /><br />I also don't think she actually channeled when she studied the Ogier in the Stedding.  I'm pretty sure touching someone without a soul is more a physical feeling then something done with the Power.


created: 2003-05-22 13:25:34
subject: <b>problem</b>
body:
Th eproblem with your conclusinon here is(I'm at work so I cna';t look up her name either) the future-reader you speak of. She died the day Rand was born. She died giving that final fortelling to Moiraine and Siuan, so that they'd know to look for him. Ain't Verin, but nice thoguht.


created: 2003-12-09 02:37:07
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
good theory...  although I must say its wrong.  she isn't who you think she is.  guatara or whoever.  I think she is just on rands side, cause remember cadsuane through out verin to throw off the first.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  that and even moraine was able to clame another name.  but good try...  I think verin does have her own agenda, but I think that includes being on rands side very much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><i><font color="blue">Stealer of Tigrs' Brain</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <font color="red">Aes Sedai to Urza, Tayron, and Jojjo.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Kuke will call you Prendergast Von Bimmle from now on.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep, Slayer_2, &amp; Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Worshipper of Snoopster!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-07 05:06:36
subject: <b>Kinda Dead</b>
body:
The woman who Foretold about the Dragon Reborn was Gitara...and she kinda dieded...read New Spring...3 ppl saw her, don't think she could fake it


created: 2005-03-05 21:20:14
subject: <b>Verin as the Aes Sedai advisor to Rand's Grandma?!!</b>
body:
Gitara Sedai was the Aes Sedai advisor to Tigraine's mom (can't recall her name) before she became Tamra Ospenya's Keeper. She had the fortelling and supposedly she told Tigraine that she had to go into the Waste and become a Maiden of the Spear and is also hinted at being responsible for Luc's disapearence. She dies in New Spring foretelling Rand's birth so she can't be Verin. <br /><br />I don't know if Verin has actually been caught in a lie or not, but chanelling inside a stedding could be done with a well. Also the Waygates are just ouside the Stedding, so the Aes Sedai who made them wouldn't have been within the Stedding.


created: 2005-12-28 11:48:10
subject: <b>A Well</b>
body:
In regards to Verin's channeling in the Stedding: could she have been the owner of a ter'angreal that acted as a well for the Power, much like the one used by Nynaeve in Far Madding?


created: 2006-03-23 14:00:00
subject: <b>All About Verin</b>
body:
1. Verin did lie, RJ said himself this was not a misstep, as someone earlier seemed to think. Of course she will try not to lie, because she wouldn't want to be caught.<br /><br />2. Verin didn't send Luc or Isam, at least there has been no hint at that.<br /><br />3. Verin didn't have to channel in the stedding. RJ said after that was brought up that we would &quot;learn something about&quot;...then paused... &quot;people without their soul soon&quot; some say he was about to say verin, some suggest a well, but didn't want to give it away at that time. Souless feel empty so you wouldn't need to channel into them, maybe you're reading too far into that one.<br /><br />4. Verin is using a form of compulsion, even Elza a known DF wants to see Rand live to the last battle so &quot;...the dark one can defeat him there&quot; but this doesn't mean that she is all good. Maybe she is a DF and has been ordered to keep Rand alive.<br /><br />5. She is keeping info from Egwene about TAR, she almost killed Cadsuane, Moraine said not to trust her... she is definitely not to be trusted, yet.<br /><br />I still don't know what to think, I don't trust her at all. But nothing points to her being of the Black, but then again I think that is just what this series needs, someone to turn out to be bad that we aren't prepared for, but that could be Aram; he was dressed exactly the same as a DF at the DF meeting with Bors when we first saw him, Yellow jacket and red pants if i remember correctly, but that's a whole new theory.


created: 2006-04-05 05:27:24
subject: <b>Gitara Moroso</b>
body:
The lady you are referring to in your last paragraph was Gitara Moroso, the then Keeper of Chronicles. if you remember in the New Spring, she had another foretelling in front of the then Amyrlin &amp; Siuan &amp; Moraine; after which she died. She foretold the birth of Rand and the whereabouts of the birth place  &amp; thus launching Moraine &amp; Siuan on their life long quest.<br /><br />I am sure Verin has got nothing to do with Gitara.


created: 2006-07-14 05:28:41
subject: <b>Gitara is dead</b>
body:
Verin cannot be Gitara because didn't she Fortell Rand's birth on the slopes od Dragonmount and then keel over dead in Moiraine's (or was it Siuane's?)arms?


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well here's one thought</b>
body:
Okay maybe I'm the only one who recalls this, but in the final chapter of WH there's the part that deals with Lanfear/Cyndane in the battle at Shadar Logoth. She comes upon a female channeler (the former Damane IIRC) and is shocked to discover that the woman is stronger in the power than she (Cyndane) was before she dealt with the Eelfinn. Cyndane was specifically thinking of her time with the Eelfinn in connection to her former strength in the Power.<p>   This seems to indicate that she lost some of her strength in the power as a result of her time with the Eelfinn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>What is the reasoning behind Landane?</b>
body:
I just want someone to explain the reasoning behind the assumption that Lanfear is Cyndane. I think that Moiraine and Lanfear are still alive in the world of the Finns, and that they both will return to Randland. I'm hoping that Mat (My personal favorite ta'veren. He gets DOWN & DIRTY <img src="images/biggrin.gif" />) will somehow be dragged into the rescue because the series alludes to the fact that he is best equipped to pull off a crazy rescue like that. Anyway, it stands to reason that if Moiraine is still alive, so is Lanfear. I would like to see evidence to the contrary, if it is out there.<p>Dark Warder <img src="images/baalzamon.gif" /></p><p>Out of the Darkness, into the Light...<br />Comes the merciless, Champion of the Night<br />Trollocks, Fades, and Darkfriends, BEWARE<br />Look over your shoulder... I WILL BE THERE<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />DWarder<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>last chance</b>
body:
i believe it was graendal, in ACOS, or TPOD, who made note that Cyndane in the old tongue means "last chance."  her weaker strength could be punishment from the DO.


created: 2001-06-04 08:35:27
subject: <b>RE: What is the reasoning behind Landane?</b>
body:
Dark Warder posts &quot;I just want someone to explain the reasoning behind the assumption that Lanfear is Cyndane.&quot;<br /><br />In Cyndane's own POV, she comments on having loved Lews Therin, but now since he is obviously not going her way, she will kill him. I can't remember right off, but it seems she also says something about the Choeden Kal, and how they could have ruled the world, a pet desire of Lanfear for her and LTT.<br /><br />Also in her POV, noting that Alivia is stronger even than she was before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her is conclusive. Lanfear was the strongest Forsaken in the Power. We know that Alivia is as strong or stronger than Nynaeve unaided, and at that time she's also wearing that full set of jewelry ter'angreal, and the rings-and-bracelet angreal, which would make here the equal of any two Forsaken easily.<br /><br />There's more, admittedly circumstantial, evidence as well. When she speaks to the other Forsaken she mentions things only someone from the AoL would know, or refers to things using an ancient name or reference.<br /><br />Anyhow, I hope that answers it. Cyndane is Lanfear. Oh, RJ also referred to Lanfear being Cyndane in an interview, supposing that it wasn't anything like a hidden fact, such as Asmodean's killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 09:23:34
subject: <b>Other possibilities?</b>
body:
My thought is that Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated. But to explain the loss of power, I thik there are a few possibilities no one else has touched on yet.<br /><br />1. No one knows what abilities the Eelfinn have. Who's to say they can't use the Power either? Or that they could draw the Power from women who can wield it. Lanfear may have wasted her abilities or even burnt herself out battling them in the Tower of Ghenjei.<br /><br />2. No one knows what happens in you channel INSIDE a ter'angreal like that. Perhaps she lost her abilities or reduced her abilities in that way.<br /><br />3. If Lanfear was saved by the Dark One, who's to say her reduction isn't part of her punishment? Lanfear used to pride herself on her beauty and her strength in saidar. Jordan states that Cyndane is certainly more than just pretty, but I'd imagine she's nowhere near as beautiful as Lanfear was. Why wouldn't the Dark One take away some of her ability to channel as a slap on the wrist? &quot;Yes, I can save you, but because you went against me, I'm going to take this, this and this.&quot; Lanfear worked to better her own purposes, not always in the interests of the Dark One. Wouldn't it be sweet revenge for the Dark One to offer her salvation at a price? Shai'tan may even be tempting Cyndane to serve him better - if you are the model Forsaken, I may just let you have your strength back.<br /><br />4. This is the least likely, but seeing as Lanfear WAS so strong in the Power, perhaps her new body simply can't handle so much of the Power. Jordan never actually states why some women can handle more than others - perhaps it can be linked to their corporeal bodies. Or even to their strength of character. So far, the stronger Aes Sedai have been women of strong character - and there are few others with characters to match Nynaeve and Alivia. Perhaps this is why they can channel so strongly?<br />


created: 2001-09-04 05:05:06
subject: <b>It's all very well but.....</b>
body:
I think the theory is pretty good, although there are no hard evidence as to why she is weaker in the power in her new body, I just felt that I had to comment on something that you wrote though. Lanfear was NOT, she was NOT as strong as the male Forsaken. The only time we hear this it is from Moirane, who is just reciting the legend of Lanfear, however when Rahvin was still alive, he Sammael, Lanfear and Greandal held council in Andor, there he stated that he and Sammael both were far stronger than either of the women, this is ofcourse verified by Asmodean and Moghedien while teaching ther pupils.<br /><br />Just felt that I had to get that out in the open.


created: 2001-09-30 22:14:05
subject: <b>maybe, maybe not</b>
body:
When mat was in finnland, he gained knowledge and in return they took his life (he was not dead for 2-3 seconds as some ppl think).. So I belive, that maybe Lanfear gained her freedom, and in return, she lost some power to channel.


created: 2001-12-18 14:55:36
subject: <b>The Choedan Kal says it all</b>
body:
Cyndane's thoughts reveal her as Lanfear, if nothing else does. She muses over the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, and that she wanted to challenge the creator with Rand. I think by the 10th book all the Forsaken will be revealed (I hope, anyway)


created: 2002-02-21 13:22:20
subject: <b>Here's the quote</b>
body:
To clear up all the doubts: So he (Rand) had found a woman to use the other access key. She (Cyndane/Lanfear) would have faced the Great Lord-faced the Creator!- with him. She would have shared the power with him let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!<br />


created: 2002-03-11 03:05:24
subject: <b>I disagree because</b>
body:
Cyndane states in WH that Alivia, the Seanchan wilder, was stronger than she had been before the Aelfinn.<br /><br />Exact Quote from Winters Heart page 649<br />&quot;Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock.  She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!  That was impossible;  no woman could be stronger.&quot;<br /><br />so now, we know, for a fact, that Cyndane was Lanfear and that she is weaker than she used to be, but still the strongest female forsaken because in POD Graendal remarks that Cyndane is stronger than her and that that was uncommon in men and VERy rare in females.


created: 2002-11-13 05:56:43
subject: <b>You are wrong</b>
body:
(WH Chap 35: With the Choedan Kal) She (Alivia?) was stronger than Cyndane had been BEFORE the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her.<br />Obviously, she's not masking her full strenght. She's less strong than she was as Lanfear<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-13 05:57:09
subject: <b>You are wrong</b>
body:
(WH Chap 35: With the Choedan Kal) She (Alivia) was stronger than Cyndane had been BEFORE the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her.<br />Obviously, she's not masking her full strenght. She's less strong than she was as Lanfear<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 16:57:54
subject: <b>also</b>
body:
It would be very reader-friendly to make Rand free to channel, as we haven't really witnessed Rand channeling at full power at all yet. And it is the 10th book after all... So there's my hope, but I'm always sceptic, and it WOULD fit into Jordan's way of writing that Rand would be even more crippled, and regained his full strenght just some time before the end (I might be totally wrong.. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jazz Necesse Est <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 17:33:49
subject: <b>o....k</b>
body:
when was moridin the stranger that helped rand? i always took him as being a somehow manifested form of LTT and it makes sence since they mirrored each other i mean read that passage again they literally act like mirrors of each other to the T. rand channels balefire and at the EXACT same time the other guy does too! and rand goes out of one hand and the guy out of the opposite hand and they go in opposite dirrections. this is too much coincidence to me. i think that guy is LTT somehow... NOT moridin<br /><br />as to how LTT becomes &quot;real&quot;.... i have no clue other then maybe it was shadar logoth's evil somehow doing it?


created: 2002-07-06 22:51:24
subject: <b>i hope</b>
body:
i hope rand's channeling sickness goes away soon, because it has been interfering with his ability to use his full strength, and this could be bad with the last battle on the way. so i'm guessing the cleansing of the taint will help a lot, even if the wounds of his are still there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 07:29:02
subject: <b>Look no further</b>
body:
Sickness is the evidence of battle within the body (or soul, in some cases). Get rid of the offending party, you get rid of the sickness. Get rid of the DO, you get rid of the sickness. Etc.<br />I have no more to say.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 12:23:45
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
&quot;Plus that would eliminate the constant descriptions of the problems he has getting a hold of saidin... &quot;<br /><br />OMG Yes please hehe.  I understand that Rand has problems....and yes  even our stories heroes need to have some vulnerabilities.  But having to go through the descriptions of dizziness, nausea etc every time Rand channels is getting to be a tedious thing.  I guess it's one of those things that I kind of wish we could do without and just take for granted that it's happening...but if Jordan ever DIDN'T mention it...I guess all us nitpickers would jump all over it as having hidden meaning ;o <br />


created: 2003-07-08 23:38:24
subject: <b>Yep... we'll be angry at RJ whatever he does</b>
body:
If I were RJ, I'd probably throw in something deliberately REALLY CONFUSING just to see the fan's reactions... i.e, have Rand seize saidin and once, just ONCE, have him get a warm fuzzy feeling when he does it. Then have it never mentioned again.<br /><br />About this theory... I agree that I think his channeling sickness will go away now, simply because it would be reader-friendly. For the first few times, it was interesting. Now I want Rand to be able to channel again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud president of the Society of People Who Make Up Societies And Pretend To Be The President Of Said Societies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> People put WAY too many smileys in their sigs... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-28 17:05:28
subject: <b>Just a little thought</b>
body:
I didn't notice the sickness starting when balefire crossed... is that right? My suspicion was that the sickness he has was due somehow to the conflict within himself (LTT, or more importantly to my mind, the third guy) and that was somehow interfering - the third one trying to seize saidin, perhaps? Any thoughts?


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Last Battle</b>
body:
not sure where I read it, but it seems to me that if Rand wins, then the dark one will be bound again awaiting an age where war is not known and people inadvertantly drill into the bore.... (in some age the bore has to be whole, since they are all the same ages over and over (someone said that, just don't remember who)) but if the dark one wins, the he breaks time and rewrites the patterns in his image.  If the light wins, the cycle starts over (a few million years later, a new Rand will be born <img src="images/smile.gif" />), if the DO wins, everything starts fresh and evil<p>Just my take</p>


created: 2001-06-11 14:56:32
subject: <b>LTT the Dragon</b>
body:
Topgun posted that nowhere does it say that LTT is aware that he's the Dragon of his age.<br /><br />In the prologue to TEotW, Ishamael is already playing the part of Ba'alzamon, and is talking to the delirious LTT. He speaks of accepting and even glorying in the name given him by the people, Ishamael, Betrayer of Hope. Then he reminds LTT of the name he had earned, Dragon.<br /><br />I don't believe LTT lacked fortitude in any respect. I don't believe he wimped out and chose to exist for another turn of the wheel rather than do what was needed to defeat the DO.<br /><br />BTW, in a recent interview, RJ stated clearly that in WoT-world, there is no end to the turnings of the Wheel. The ages come and go, and come and go...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 12:48:53
subject: <b>the last battle</b>
body:
Idont know if any one has ever thought of this or not but how about this rand decides to win TLB he has to sheath his sword as lan told him


created: 2001-07-15 12:55:45
subject: <b>the last battle</b>
body:
i know you will think its anti climatic but rand to win the last battle will have to sheath sword. remeber lan told him when all seems lost and the price is high enogh sometimes you have no choice but sheath your sword.i hope i am wrong but thats the way i see it. it shows rand paying the ultamate price.


created: 2001-07-24 00:28:17
subject: <b>Price was paid by LTT</b>
body:
If you think about it when Lews killed all of his kin that was a massive spilling of his blood. Looking inot the dead face of Illyena was the price he paid for being a hero and doing what needed to be done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 20:06:44
subject: <b>Prophecies in the WoT timeline</b>
body:
I may be wrong about this, but everything I have can remember about the Prophecies of the Dragon, as known by the characters in the books, seem to have been set down after the Breaking of the World, and thus Lews Therin.<br /><br />The Prophecies talk about the return of the Dragon to fight the Dark One when he again touches the world, making it sound like the Bore that was created in Lews Therins age was the first in memory.  I think that the person who will become the Dragon is born in an age when all memory of the Dark One having touched the world has been forgotten.  In that age a Bore is made in the Dark Ones prison. A person (who says it always has to be a man?) who is strong with to Power leads the attempt to seal the Bore, thus becoming the first Dragon in that turning of the Wheel.  In the aftermath, however, the Dragon realizes this seal is only temporary, and will fail with time.  So, The Prophecies are set down for the rebirth of the spirit of the Dragon, who now knows what is needed to fully repair the Bore, in an age when the seal is failing.<br /><br />Therefore, no prophecies were in place for Lews Therin to fulfill, and he could not have known he was the Dragon, because he was destined to become the first Dragon in this turning, and only later in his life during the fight against the Dark One.<br /><br /><br />As for there not being a Tarmon Gai'don, I think there will be a &quot;Last Battle&quot; against the Dark One in this turning.  The Wheel will turn, these Ages and their events will be forgotten, and when they come around again the cycle will repeat, as it always has.


created: 2001-10-20 21:48:06
subject: <b>Sure why Not</b>
body:
There is a possibility that there have been many &quot;Last Battles.&quot;  History repeats itself as the wheel would suggest, and there are no rules saying that one last battle is the same as the next.  It is also possible that the wheel cycles are much longer than what most people think.  The last &quot;Last Battle&quot; may have been so many years ago that it was long forgotten.  Otherwise I am inclined to believe that this will be the battle that breaks the wheel.


created: 2002-04-16 00:02:19
subject: <b>i think not</b>
body:
First of, I think this whole Lews Therin theory is completely offtrack.  Lews Therin killed everything he ever cared about.  Pretty high price for being the Dragon, don't you think?  Lews Therin did not know how to get rid of the DO because he was the original, the forefather, the one who set the precedent.  He could not look at what the others did and say 'hey that didn't work let's try something else.'  Rand knows Lews Therin's way did not work so he can take that bit of knowledge and use it.  These other Dragons had to come before Rand so that he could learn from them and figure out what to do to defeat DO.<br /><br />Secondly time can not be free.  time is man made and has no meaning outside of the human realm.  Certainly the same global events are occuring.  If the most evil force ever known was loosed on mankind i bet you'd try to stop it every time too.  Once the DO is done away with things will change.  Until then man kind must face its most formidable foe, not to do so would be utterly foolish.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Revenge is sweet, <br />    but vindication is sweeter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> The truth will set you free <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> All dwarves are bastards but not all bastards need be dwarves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-28 18:08:29
subject: <b>Uhm.. This is totally off Track...,</b>
body:
Thing bout it, Ages come and become legend legend turns to myth and when the AGE THAT GAVE IT BIRTH COMES AGAIN even myth is forgotten. Think about it, Each age is not a rerun of the last, there is like a set number of ages that turn and turn and turn.  So LTT and Rand are part of the SAME set, LTT being the Dragon Rand being the dragon reborn of THAT set. Therefore what applies to rand doesnt apply to LTT, the Karetheon cycle (or howeva u spell it ) Applies to rand, not ltt, and it applies to all future and past rands in every turnin of the wheel and in portal stnoe worlds, not however to LTT because that, if you will, is part of the same set.


created: 2002-09-10 15:34:40
subject: <b>No Catoo, you're right on track...</b>
body:
Everything has happened before.  Everything will happen again.  Rand's battle with the DO (i.e. TG) is not a repeat of LTT's battle, because they are part of the same cycle.  Rand is repeating the Fisher's battle (speculation only).<br /><br />I believe that Rand WILL repair the hole in the DO's prison (not just patch it), and several ages will pass allowing people to forget about the DO.  Then when the AOL comes around again, a new bore will be drilled.<br /><br />That means that TG IS the last battle... in this cycle.  The Wheel will continue to turn however, and all things will come again.  I have no evidence for that, but it seems to be an idea that RJ is set on.<br /><br />By the way, this is a dangerous topic.  Wasn't Herid Fel trying to explain this very subject to Rand?  Look what happened to him!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 18:14:10
subject: <b>perhaps this is the last</b>
body:
I can't be sure but maybe this is the last age in this full rotation of the wheel.  The way I see it is that maybe this will be the end of the world completely, in which not only does Rand destroy the dark one but the dark one destroys the world with his counter stroke just before he is gone.  I believe this because in the first age everything had to be created by the creator which signifies that at one point it has to be destroyed for events to come full cirlce.


created: 2003-11-26 23:26:11
subject: <b>About duty</b>
body:
We all know Mr. Jordan is a smart man.  And if we look close enough, every person in Rand Land believe that people are reborn, LTT-Rand. I like to think that Wheel of Time will come back to an age where they are technologically similar to ours, they have been because someone travelled to the stars in a metal horse, or some nonensense, tEoTW.  But back to my main idea, I think people like Mr. Fell and other philosophers would think about poeple's sense of duty. I feel that the people there are being motivated by a great pusher, the DO or the Creator, there is no real free will.  Maybe when Rand fights the final battle he will free people from their constraints and let them choose for themselves.  Maybe Jordan is giving us what we can't know for sure that we have, freedom.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-23 14:28:46
subject: <b>Ages come and go</b>
body:
On a normal wheel there are 8 spokes and I believe that in the WoT these represent each age. Right now we are in the 3rd age. The Age of Legends would have to be the 1st age because the AoL ends with the drilling of the bore.Then in the 2nd age LTT seals up the bore and sadian gets the taint. This inturn breaks the world with all the male Aes Sedai going mad. Once they are all dead or done and the Ogier find the stedding the 2nd age is over and the 3rd age begins. The Dragon is reborn becuase the seals are weakening and the pattern sees the need to spin a savior out. So lets say that the end of the 3rd age is near (which I really think is going to happen with the white tower battle not TG) I think that Elaynes Babies will herald the 4th age. So the 4th age is when TG will happen and the aftermath. So I assume that the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th ages are a time of rebuilding and bringing peace so that at the end of the 8th age noone remembers a time of war and evil. I would think that after TG and 4 ages pass that this is very likely. So we start all over with age 1 again and the world is at its peak. The end of this age once again someone drills into the DO prison not knowing any better.And the 2nd age is of fighting the DO and him getting sealed in. The taint is once again put on sadian. <br /><br /><br />See a pattern? Just like every book states...<br /><br />The wheel of time turns and ages come and go. what is legend becomes myth and when the age that gave it birth comes again even that is myth is forgotten. There are no beginnings or endings to the turning of the wheel but...<br />( not exact but you get my point)<br /><br />So in RJ world there was no beginnning with the creator making everything becuase there is no beginning or ending to the turning of the wheel. I know this is going to be hard for everyone to accept but that is my thoughts on the subject.<br />In essence Rand will win TG. But I am not sure if he will survive.<br /><br />Sorry so long...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 16:56:54
subject: <b>Rand will survive, and there WILL be a last battle</b>
body:
if you take nicola's foretelling in LOC what else would it mean &quot;he who is dead yet lives&quot; and &quot;the great battle done, but the world not done w/ battle&quot; Bah!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>REGARDING OGIER ARMIES</b>
body:
The ogier coming out to fight is an interesting idea, but sad at the same time. The ogeir are a peace loving race, its sad to think of them having to fight. I think of when Loial killed the trolloc in the TGH. Even though it was a trolloc it saddened him. I think it is necessary for them to come out and fight but sad that it will happen.<img src="images/frown.gif" />


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>HAHA!</b>
body:
Although I personally feel that the alleged "Seanchan Ogier" are merely faint memories of Ogier from Hawking's day, I am still going to selfishly use this space for my own purposes.  I was attempting to place of in every category, but I have decided to settle for the first couple ones seeing as I could very well making a fool out of myself without realising it.  Still, don't be surprised of you've seen it before.<p>[ahem]...I was in sarting my fourth reading of WoT, when suddenly, something struck me like an Irish cop.  Allegedly, the one power is the force that turns the wheel of time, and from this we can gather that without one power usage, the wheel wouldn't turn.  So...in an age that didn't have use of the power I believe I've read about one briely)the wheel would not turn, and the age would never end.  What would happen?  Would ed off heroes of legend beat on the creator until he made it turn and spin 'em out?  Who knows.  Please mail me with your ideas. <br />                        a collective effort of,<br />Lucife<img src="images/devil.gif" />    Teeth<img src="images/biggrin.gif" />    Winky<img src="images/wink.gif" />    Shades<img src="images/cool.gif" /> <br />King tut<img src="images/pharoah.gif" />    The drunk clown <img src="images/clown.gif" />    Angry Jake<img src="images/angry.gif" /> <br />WoT<img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> And Many others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 14:53:29
subject: <b>Good idea, but..</b>
body:
the reason Elayne even knows about the army is because her spies/defenders/scouts/whatever for Andor have spotted the army.  That one guy that works for her (man, it's been awhile.. can't think of names) is excited about the news, but had it been an army of Ogier (which would be about as strange as the sky turning green) wouldn't he have blurted it out right away?  Unless Jordan doesn't want us to know that yet.  It would be cool, though, I'll give you that..


created: 2001-06-03 14:15:25
subject: <b>RE: Good idea but...</b>
body:
Halwin Norry, the Head Clerk or something like that at the palace in Caemlyn, reports to Elayne FOUR armies approaching from the east. If whoever sighted them could identify the force as four armies, they surely would have noticed them being eight feet tall with long furry ears.<br /><br />If Loial is any example, we have seen how Ogier fight when it's necessary. Loial was cutting down Shaido like hacking through tall weeds at Dumai's Wells. It is possible that with Loial visiting the stedding to set guards on the Waygates, and his history-in-progress, he might be able to bring many Ogier to follow the Dragon Banner into battle. And of course Loial will be the biggest hero in Ogier history.<br /><br />For Metallica-man2, that it is the One Power that drives the Wheel of Time has nothing whatever to do with it being employed by people. It isn't the USE of the power that makes time march on. Your cause-and-effect is a bit skewed there. It isn't like the meter on the side of your house, that if you don't use any electricity it won't spin. What you are suggesting would be equivalent to saying that if you didn't use any electricity then there wouldn't be any for the powerplant to generate. Was that irish cop drinking when he hit you? ::ducks::<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 21:11:04
subject: <b>Me beeing stupid again</b>
body:
On this i agree with bukama if the armies was ogier then some one would have noticed. right?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />Oh im so low<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-09 01:00:19
subject: <b>The Battle</b>
body:
I have no idea if the armies are Ogier, but I am sure that they shall be apart of the Final Battle, or atleast some part of it.<br /><br />The Ogier shall be all resigned to the fact that they must fight, but they won't be happy. There shall be many lines in the book that talk about them fighting with tears streaming down their faces.<br /><br />However, I believe that Loials wife/girlfriend (can't remember her name) shall get killed, leading Loial into a rage, as well as her family &amp; the rest of Ogier-kind following &amp; they fight as if they were an avalanche. They shall turn the tide of atleast one battle prior to Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />The Ogiers are cool &amp; implacable. Sorry they shall have to fight but they shall be a definite force to be reconed with. The Deathwatch Ogier won't have a shade on them.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> sad to happen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> but fight they shall <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-17 13:01:37
subject: <b>Simple question</b>
body:
Why don't the Seanchan Ogier suffer from the longing?  They seem to be immune to it since they can make the long journey by sea, and still be trusted as Tuon's closest guard.  They must be able to get along without the stedding.  Otherwise how would they have been trained to use those weapons and be organized into a fighting force?


created: 2001-08-20 14:18:30
subject: <b>Army identity</b>
body:
I'm not sure if I'm right, but aren't those four armies the Borderland armies led by the 4 Borderland kings/queens? Maybe i'm just confused again, it's one of those days.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Morgawse Sedai<br /><br /><i>Mornings happen to other people.</i><br /><br /> Passionate Heerenveen Fan<br /><br /><font color="red">I survived Michigan 2004</font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 19:36:21
subject: <b>Maybe's</b>
body:
The Seanchan Ogier haven't spent 10 years on the ships to get to Randland like the one who had to walk with a stick. If you run with the trade winds you can cross the Atlantic in around a month, which is nothing compared to the time Loial has been out of the Stedding.<br /><br />The four armies approach from the East, the Borderlanders are to the North. From memory Elayne hears about the 4 armies just as she arrives back from talking to the Borderlanders (don't have book for exact quote, sorry).<br /><br />To the theory- yeah, four armies would be exciting.<br />One of them being composed of 10 foot tall hairy blokes with axes bigger than you are- now that would be something to take notice of.<br /><br />Ogier kicking ass at TG? You bet. Can't wait.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 11:40:03
subject: <b>Ogier fought before</b>
body:
In Eye of the World whilst in the inn at Camelyn Loial apologises to Rand about the inability of the Ogier to come in time to save Manetheren. This suggests that the Ogier where at least willing to fight in the Trolloc wars suggesting they will do again<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-10 09:45:26
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
Also the 4 armies coming from the east are only about 20,000 or so about 5,000 in each bit. Cause Norry says something like there are 4 small armies approaching from the east heck i remember when 5,000 was an Army.<br /><br />Also the Seanchan Ogier, were in there steddings when the breaking happened . But Mainland Ogier weren't (what were they doing? fighting beside LTT?) and they couldn't find the stedding once the world had broken, so the longing took affect.<br /><br />I think the Ogier would be a Death Machine, chopping up anyone who gets in there way.<br /><br />Aslo how does Loial no how to use a Axe in a fight? and a quarterstaff this implies that Ogier train with weapons.


created: 2002-01-19 23:03:30
subject: <b>Re: Orgier Armies</b>
body:
I think oriegers will:<br />1)fight in T.G. and <br />2)totally kick ass!!!<br /><br /><br />Aren't the two armies in &quot;Andor&quot;<br />1 Elyane's Party from Ebou Dar (?????)<br />or the band moving tword Caemlyn after medleing w/ the nobles<br /><br />2 Egwene on the border with that other country (What was it called again??) <br /><br />News still travels slowly without steam engine or Traveling


created: 2002-02-03 14:57:19
subject: <b>re</b>
body:
Why would Ogier march on Caemlyn? Why give up the peace? The only other time when a pacifist was pulled to battle was when Aram followed Perrin, and even if that is because of perrins taveren hood, Aram had half made up his mind. Rand, Mat or Perrin hasn't had great contact with the Ogier, certainly not enough to pull them from their ways. Ogier are lazy and don't like to leave stedding. Loial is like the renegade ogier, hasty. Nah, mainland ogier would have had to been pushed, which would have been heard all over randland. <br />The Seanchan ogier are only in the Deathwatch (if my meomory serves me) so they'd wanna stay pretty close to the Blood. So far the Seanchan haven't come further to Caemlyn than Illian.


