# w_comment

created: 2003-12-13 06:23:47
subject: <b>You're mixing stuff up Etzel</b>
body:
I read most of your theories and I like your way of thinking but your imagination tends to run wild sometimes.<br /><br />Think about this:<br />Headman's Axe and someone running to stop it...<br />Don't you think it is much more likely the TAS and not the Seanchan would want to chop off Eggy's head?  Notice that while the Seanchan would like to make her a Damane, as was stated above by others, the TAS actually have a place in the Tower called the Traitor's Court,  which seems a fitting place for a chopping block.  And Gawyn has a bigger chance of rescueing her from the Tower.  Besides it will be much more plot-related.<br /><br />I believe all RJ wanted to show us was that the Seanchan are scouting Tar Valon.  This does not mean Eggy's rescuer will be Seanchan.  There will be plenty of opportunity for that later.  Remember that some of the plotlines will merge in the next books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange"><i>She bit the bowl clean off the spoon<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uozGujfdS0&amp;feature=related</i> <br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-13 07:20:28
subject: <b>AgentOrange</b>
body:
<b> I read most of your theories and I like your way of thinking but your imagination tends to run wild sometimes. </b><br /><br />That <i> can </i> happen. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />But I believe this theory is not too far-fetched.<br /><br /><b> Think about this:<br />Headman's Axe and someone running to stop it...<br />Don't you think it is much more likely the TAS and not the Seanchan would want to chop off Eggy's head? Notice that while the Seanchan would like to make her a Damane, as was stated above by others, the TAS actually have a place in the Tower called the Traitor's Court, which seems a fitting place for a chopping block. And Gawyn has a bigger chance of rescueing her from the Tower. Besides it will be much more plot-related. </b><br /><br />First I also considered that Gawyn will rescue Egwene after I read CoT. <br /><br />But then I thought about Egwene's dreams and changed my mind. <br />The first dream states that Egwene will be saved by a Seanchan woman. <br />This will happen before the attack (see above) and before Gawyn's saving because it's not plausible why Egwene, if Gawyn would rescue her from the WT, needs to be saved by a Seanchan woman after that. <br /><br />Besides, I doubt that Gawyn had better chances to rescue Egwene from the Tower. After all TV is besieged and <i> he </i> can't enter the WT from the air. <br /><br /><b> I believe all RJ wanted to show us was that the Seanchan are scouting Tar Valon. This does not mean Eggy's rescuer will be Seanchan. There will be plenty of opportunity for that later. Remember that some of the plotlines will merge in the next books. </b><br /><br />No, the dream was too concrete in my view. <br />Egwene will be saved by a Seanchan woman.


created: 2003-12-13 09:40:20
subject: <b>Using T'A'R</b>
body:
She won't be able to tell the Aes Sedai, but she'll be able to tell Bryne.  They wouldn't know where in T'A'R to meet her, and they ward their dreams so she won't be able to leave a message unless she tries breaking through their warding and succeeds.  Other options are Nynaeve or the Wise Ones or Elayne &amp; Aviendha.  I don't think she'd tell Gawyn.  She wouldn't think he has a chance at helping her, and wouldn't want him to get killed in the process of trying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-14 01:45:25
subject: <b>Sorry but I don't agree with you</b>
body:
I don't see why you believe Chulein will save Egwene, for that matter why would the Seanchan send anyone to rescue her?  To get info on what is happening in the WT?  Since Egwene is a prisoner I doubt she would have much info to supply in that regard. And wouldn't that kind of ruin the suprise when the rest of the Seanchan army attacked? <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />j0ker6


created: 2003-12-16 01:40:49
subject: <b>Here's another idea...</b>
body:
Maybe AgentOrange is close to the truth.  Maybe it will be Gawyn who saves her, like he says.  Here is my reasoning:<br /><br />This theory is based off of the fact that Egwene had this dream shortly before being captured.  However, these two events could have nothing to do with each other.  If you look at the dream, the only thing that links it to the current situation is that Egwene is in the tower, near the bottom, and that one method of egress is through the roof.  The dream could just mean that Egwene will nearly fail in one of her future goals, and that a Seanchan woman will help her.<br /><br />Here's another idea.  Maybe the woman IS Tuon.  It's a dream, so the body style doesn't really have to match.  Maybe the reason there is a sword involved is that Egwene will need an even larger army and the Seanchan will be in the perfect location to help.  And the shifting face is because while Tuon will make the final decision, others will be instrumental in the making of the deicision and the implementation of that choice.<br /><br />Etzel, I want to make sure you know that I do think this theory, like the ones you have posted before, is excellent.  Despite what I think about the ideas you put forward, they were well stated and researched.  And it has done what all good theories must do: make us think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 02:31:59
subject: <b>Lots of posts...</b>
body:
I just thought I would throw my idea in.  I remember thinking while reading this that the woman might be a hero of the horn reborn, and that the sword on her back is her symbol, like berelain's bow.  It could be Chulein or anyone else.  I know it's kind of loony, but its fun anyways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mind is in constant need of stimulation.  If boredom was an olmypic sport, I'd have been dq'd for steroids.<br />Yarr...I am...not attractive - The Sea Captain<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />If wishes were wings, pigs would fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 22:04:10
subject: <b>I think it's the Damane</b>
body:
It makes more sense than it does having either Tuon, Eganin (sorry if I spell anything wrong)or a Raken.<br />First,the woman's face is blurred. This doesn't necessaryly mean that it's someone that Egwene hasn't met. It could be that it's many women. <br />Second, that the sword on her back is solid means that either it's the woman's weapon or that the woman is a weapon. The Damane are definitely used as weapons by the Seanchan.<br />Third, the mountain which both women are climbing is the WT. Egwene trying to defeat the WT is certainly a challenge. But along come the Seanchan ready to battle with the WT and with women who aren't burdened with the 3 oaths and an army to boot. What more could the RAS ask for?<br />Therefore this what I think:<br />Seanchan woman=Damane. Egwene=RAS. Mountain=WT. <br />But what I don't think is this: that the Seanchan are helping the RAS on purpose. They'ed sooner leash them all.


created: 2003-12-20 09:43:34
subject: <b>nice Etzel...</b>
body:
..i've been thinking along the same paths.<br /><br />A few remarks though.<br /><br />First, i really have a hard time seeing the Seanchan sending someone to rescue Eggy. I haven't seen any really good explanations to that yet. I lean to an unplanned rescue. For instance they have to find out she's captured to start with.<br /><br />Second, i really don't think the Seanchan will attack the SAS first. The WT are certain to be informed of that and it isn't like the Seanchan can just sweep down, capture all the SAS and then immediately use them against the WT, it would require some time to &quot;train&quot; them. They already have a bunch of captured AS althuogh i'm uncertain of the numbers<br /><br />Third, i think that the rescue and the attack will happen at the same time, her dreams really don't speak against it.<br /><br />Fourth, Loial01 made a good comment on the identity of her rescuer when comparing with Min's viewing of her sharing Rand. She can't make out their faces at first, even after she's met Elayne in the WT (at least it isn't mentioned in the books). <br /><br />Tuon and Mat will not have anything to do with the rescue, though.<br /><br />Anyway, good work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gawyn shouldn't have had a chance against Hammar. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-03 00:20:27
subject: <b>Tuon will be her rescue</b>
body:
Mat is on his way too the tower, My theory will be posted soon I work to jobs so be patient, but as too Tuon she does in fact have a sword RJ mentioned it a while back the sword of her ancestor Arthur Pendrag the claim too the throne<br /><br /><br />I will get my theory up soon Robb<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 00:18:25
subject: <b>Gawyn</b>
body:
This was a good theory after reading cot i assumed that from thedream she had about gawyn rescuing her that her that he would rescue her from the tower, but it could be the seanchan.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 00:21:21
subject: <b>Gawyn</b>
body:
This was a good theory after reading cot i assumed that from thedream she had about gawyn rescuing her that her that he would rescue her from the tower, but it could be the seanchan..... Another though is that if the seanchan attack that tower that a former aes sedai damane could free her. A little far-fetched, but w/e.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-03 05:54:14
subject: <b>dream interpretation</b>
body:
I think that Egwene's dream is more metaphorical. I think she saw a Raken briefly in front of the moon, indicating an upcoming Seanchan attack. During the chaos of the attack, all hell will break loose. Somehow, Egwene and a Seanchan woman will have to be enemies cooperating for their mutal survival. This will create a bond between them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-13 02:01:14
subject: <b>a new twist to an old thought?</b>
body:
Maybe since Matt is with the &quot;Moiraine Rescue Party&quot; (and she will need to hurriedly get near Rand after she is saved) Tuon and Rand finally meet.  Rand will make some corny joke about Matt being married, and decide to use the new alliance to help the &quot;rebel&quot; Aes Sedai take back the tower.  <br /><br />Why?  Well, Egwene is the Amrylin for that faction and they are friends...well,sorta.  So he asks the Seanchan to help Egwene's Aes Sedai in taking over the White Tower. So he could have them for an ally too.  Mainly because he figures out he's been played into thinking that they are the bad guys. (And to get back at Elaida for Dumai's Wells)<br /><br />This can tie in both visions at the same time. Egwene gets freed from her predicament (which may seem like climbing a mountain and is truly a dangerous one) by the Seanchan, and the Seanchan attack the White Tower.  Maybe the firey oil that spills everywhere when the ravens hit are the &quot;remanents cast out and scorned&quot;? Like Elaida...I hate her the most! I hope she suffers!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;Mother, mother ocean, I have heard you call,<br />Wanted to sail upon your waters since I was three feet tall...Yes, I am a pirate two hundred years too late. The cannons don't thunder there's nothin' to plunder...&quot; <br />   -J. Buffet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-11-22 06:48:38
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Your explanation of why a raken rider will free egwene is too weak. i'll be red in the face if i'm wrong!


created: 2008-04-28 00:53:24
subject: <b>the face issue</b>
body:
&quot;To jofraz,<br /><br />First off, I don`t see Chulein as the one with the sword. This is surely Egeanin. The way it would be Egeanin, is for Tuon to have sent her, or come with Rand and co. after the Seanchan agreement. Tuon would be the one beside her during the confrontation with Rand.<br /><br />I don't see how Tuon could know of Egwene and why she would send Egeanin.<br />I also don't know why Egeanin would have a wavering face.&quot; <br /><br /><br />Jofraz brought up an interesting point and I think the wavering face is something els.  I think its a wavering face because who ever is going to help her has yet to be decided by the pattern, sevral people are in a position to help her, but the pattern hasnt chosen one yet and so it is foggy, but there is going to be someone and it is going to Seanchan and they will have a sword.


created: 2008-06-12 14:20:50
subject: <b>wavering face</b>
body:
The wavering face could point to an identity crisis, or a change in essence of personality. Egeanin fits very will with this interpretation. Egeanin has had a change of heart about Aes Sedai and realizes that they should not be collared like animals.<br /><br />Perhaps, if this is more symbolic than literal, it could point to Egeanin somehow helping Egwene bridge the gap between Aes Sedai and the Seanchan's (Tuon) perception of Aes Sedai as property to be used.<br /><br />Another possibility is the perception of the white tower about men and their usefulness. Egeanin started out an extreme feminist that liked the idea of keeping Aes Sedai as slaves as well as men like Bayle Domon being beneath her because of her Seanchan status. Perhaps this whole scene is symbolic of the change in heart she has had. Egeanin could help each other bring a change of heart about men, Aes Sedai, and &quot;birthright&quot; to both the White Tower and Tuon. This seems much the same that Cadsuane is supposed to do for the Black Tower and Rand. Perhaps this must happen BEFORE the hard Rand and prideful Tuon can get on the same page.


created: 2003-12-16 16:52:51
subject: <b>Dark helping Elayne..??</b>
body:
Im not entirely convinced that the Dark One or the forsaken are trying to give Elayne help.<br /><br />It seems to me that when Hanlon saved Elayne, the whole situation was a set-up, in order for him to get the high position.<br /><br />Also, the Lady Shianne (sp?) seems to be responsible for burning (or trying to burn) many of the food warehouses in Andor. When she talks to Hanlon in CoT she asks him if he can somehow make it so that the city guards aren't near the food supply. (cuz she wants them to burn, which wont help Elaine).<br /><br />Finally, though no proof was given that I can remember, it seems more than likely that Arymilla has help from dark friends. Her story just screams dark friend involvement to me anyways.<br /><br />Now the rest of the theory would be reasonable still, if the forsaken all had different plans. But since Moridin brought out the leashes, I find that possibility to be unlikely as well.<br />So unless its all some cunning scheme of Moridin's, I dont think I can agree with much other than the fact that it was a bit odd that Elayne got what she needed, when she needed it the most<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> When I have time to kill, I'm comming back for you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 20:22:10
subject: <b>i read the book quickly</b>
body:
and always thought that the Alum was found on the estate that she traveled to.  the ensuing explosion revealed the alum.  i am probably wrong but that is how i connnected it in my mind<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 22:26:52
subject: <b>wasn't this theory written by Matrimony Cauthon?</b>
body:
It sure seems like one of his.  I did a search through his old posts and saw something just like it...  You guys should check it out.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-17 07:37:03
subject: <b>chaos theory</b>
body:
I don't think the Forsaken want Elayne to win the throne per se, rather I think they wanted to give her a more equal footing with the contenders for the throne.  If she didn't get the alum, she would run out of money and probably lose her claim, and the succession may proceed quickly with someone else.  I think they want to keep Andor in chaos by making the succession stretch out.


created: 2003-12-17 11:21:36
subject: <b>The Shadow wants brewing conflicts</b>
body:
Thus it makes sense that the Shadow secures Elayne's position, at least insofar that the Rebels (who are also in contact with the Shadow) can't defeat her yet and already win &amp; solve the conflict.<br /><br />We see the same scheme in the WT conflict, where also both sides are under Shadow's control. <br /><br />I also think that the Shadow knows of the love between Elayne &amp; Rand and will use it, but as I said in my theory &quot;A severed hand, not Elayne's&quot; rather that Elayne will be forced to do something because of it.  <br /><br />Anyway, it's a good idea, but as Scion said, I hope you didn't steal it from Matrimony Cauthon but are actually him. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-17 12:54:42
subject: <b>Alum</b>
body:
Can't some forms of slum be used to make high explosives?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 22:46:06
subject: <b>Moridin?</b>
body:
Why Moridin didn't find it for Norry (in fact, why no one &quot;found&quot; anything for Norry):<br /><br />1. When Morgase was Queen, Andor was always in decent financial shape as one of the strongest Westland countries, so there was no need to be looking about the Daughter-Heir's estates trying to find income/resources. Norry, however, appears to be the one type of person in the story who would worry overmuch about resources and money, so if it was ever mentioned that alum existed in part of the realm, he would know.<br /><br />2. When Rand was ruling Andor, waiting for Elayne, Norry was probably not going to bring up any bonus resources he had hidden away in his head. He probably shares the general Andoran view that the head of state is supposed to be a Queen, so he would only help Rand to save Andor or help Rand leave Andor. Plus, Rand is less-than-100% interested in what Norry has to say, so Norry probably feels he's being slighted by Rand and isn't playing his full hand yet.<br /><br />3. When Elayne shows up, Norry is back in business. He has a ruler who is impressed with his profession, understands the need for money without overtaxation, and takes him and his reports seriously. He of course wants to help her while raising his own standing, so naturally he waits until things look bleakest and then conveniently brings up the alum find... even though he didn't do anything but report the alum, it's existence means he is the bearer of good news to the likely future Queen of Andor. Two words: Job Security.<br /><br />Oh well, I think it's fun we're trying to find secrets behind everything Jordan writes, but in this case, I think regular human emotions and politics is why we suddenly find the alum in Andor's time of need.<br /><br />kinghomer<br /><br />(aka evilhomer, but only on Fridays)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 18:44:38
subject: <b>A bit farfetched for even the Shadow</b>
body:
They could just Compel a banker to give her a loan (assuming there are no Darkfriend bankers, which I wouldn't count on), or kill a very rich guy and forge a will leaving everything to her.  Heck Shiane has done that already.  As for the fortuitous appearance of the alum, it might have something to do with all the ta'veren running around and Elayne's connection to the most important of them.  She's necessary for more than what they did after Min and Aviendha left the room (Min viewed that he was tied to her in some way, but not about their relationship - she mentioned the viewing in tFoH), and maybe the Pattern was trying to keep her claim a going concern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 12:57:56
subject: <b>Maybe the author is Matrimony Cauthon</b>
body:
The profile said in effect &quot; you are looking for an author that does not exist&quot;.<br /><br />But, in any case, I believe Norry is just what he seems, a caring Andoran, happy in his role within the Caemlyn Palace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 23:03:12
subject: <b>Did someone say bait?!!</b>
body:
This could be a form of bait. The DFs could be creating a place in Randland that is calm while all around the storm rages. This in the hopes that Rand shows up there so they can make their move where they have all the people they need in place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 01:41:31
subject: <b>umm... where's the cheese?... i mean evidence</b>
body:
sorry but there's nothing here but assumptions and strained strings of logic...<br /><br />yes hanlon and shaiane (or whatever her name is) helped elayne.. but the alum seems way too random to be the forsaken... compelling a banker seems a much more likely way to get what they want... additionally, compelling a banker would create more contacts in Elayne's circle of 'friends' which would make it doubly useful...<br /><br />i just don't see any evidence to change my opinion on the subject... and i, also, don't think there is, b/c it's not true...<br /><br />peace


created: 2004-09-26 15:44:57
subject: <b>Ehrm...</b>
body:
Isn't it spelled <b>Alun</b>?<br />Never mind, but think about it, why isn't this just a random incident, I mean evidently alun has been found before, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-01 10:41:35
subject: <b>It may be the ashaman</b>
body:
Rand cannot be seen to be helping elayne as that would make her seem a pupet controled by the dragon reborn yet he could of got a few trusted ashaman to do exactly what you described morridin doing.


created: 2006-09-17 02:22:44
subject: <b>alum</b>
body:
topace_iii - no, alum is correct.<br /><br />Alum, according to Webster's New Riverside Dictionary (c)1984, is &quot;1. Any of various sulfates in which a trivalent metal, such as aluminum, chromium, or iron, is combined with a univalent metal, such as potassium or sodium. 2. Aluminum potassium sulfate, a compound of this type, used medicinally to stop bleeding.&quot;<br /><br />That said, it is also used in manufacturing (Webster's New World Compact School and Office Dictionary (c)1980) and the making of pickles (I helped my mother and her mother make pickles for years). Alum alone is very bitter to taste.<br /><br />The type of manufacturing and its actual application therein are not mentioned in my (brief) research, so I can't rule out the explosive idea set forth above. However, with Aludra in the picture and if this is really a use for alum, Mat would have a nearly unlimited supply of explosives to use in their new cannons.<br /><br />I do have to say that I agree with the other posts (and disagree with the theory). Norry was holding back the information out of respect to the line of succession and/or the fact that it was recently discovered due to the unprecedented need for funds and the ensuing search for new income sources.


created: 2003-12-16 14:59:07
subject: <b>Well written and argued theory.</b>
body:
I agree that what Cadsuane teaches all the Ashaman is not laughter and tears. They are not all in need of it, especially the older men.<br /><br />What I think she will teach them is something about Taim. Cadsuane is the oly Aes Sedai we know of who has met Taim. I think she will tell them something (such as that he has altered since his capture) that will expose him as a Darkfriend. <br /><br />As for Elayne, Min and Aviendha, I agree that they are necessary to balance Rand. Aviendha for fortitude, Min for rational thought and Elayne for ruling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 18:17:23
subject: <b>As one of the 'both of Elayne fans'</b>
body:
As one of the 'both of Elayne fans', I have to say I agree pretty much with your analysis of Rand and Elayne's relationship.  I do think you are overanalyzing a little in comparing Elayne's reactions to Min's and Aviendha to the bonding but overall I agree.  I don't think it betrays a lack of trust, though.<br /><br />Elayne and Rand haven't had enough quality time to develop a strong relationship.  The little time they had in Tear showed each to be sincere and caring and it seems like it would be a good match.  Further both Rand and Elayne are so busy with their own important problems that it is hard to envision them finding the time to properly develop their relationship.<br /><br />There is only one factor that may indicate that Elayne may have a role and that is a vision (by Egwene, I think) of Elayne forcing Rand to his knees with one hand.  This simply isn't the bonding IMHO since that was covered by a vision of Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all laying hands on Rand in turn.  I still think that Elayne forcing Rand to his knees is still to come.  Now that could mean just about anything, but my feeling is that Elayne will only force Rand to his knees only if it is absolutely necessary.<br /><br />Over all I think you did a good job with this theory, other than it being too long IMHO.  I have a few more comments about the other (than Elayne) stuff as well.  Unfortunately, I have to go now, so I will post them here later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 00:47:30
subject: <b>I agree in part</b>
body:
I like the analysis of the relationships, but I believe it will be Moiraine who will be instrumental in teaching Rand laughter and Tears. She's #1 on the list, and he can trust her - via her oath and her letter. When she returns alive, I believe that the damn will break. <br /><br />Plus, didn't Min have a viewing that said he couldn't succeed without her?


created: 2003-12-17 13:56:31
subject: <b>I doubt it will be Aviendha</b>
body:
Aviendha seems to me unlikely because I don't think she is mature enough to teach Rand what you say.  She is still critized by the Wise Ones for being weak and soft.  She has learned to enjoy wearing dresses.  I do not think she is ready to teach Rand to be strong vs. hard.<br /><br />I do agree that Rand must embrace his humanity himself, I just don't think Avi will be the one to lead him to it.<br /><br />Rand told Taim to make weapons.  Even if the other Asha'man are not as hard as Rand, they have been schooled in that direction.  A few have grown beyond that, but I think many still need to learn to accept their humanity.  Especially now that they can expect to live.  With the taint gone, they no longer have to expect going crazy.  They have been trained to be weapons to give their lives at TG.  They need to learn to think about what will happen after TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 14:37:37
subject: <b>I agree with TheAngryDruid</b>
body:
I think we need to see what Moiraine will have to do that is necissisary for Rand to win the war before deciding for sure who will teach Rand to be human.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serack Doushi</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 14:54:46
subject: <b>Interesting read</b>
body:
I agree that Rand will need all of his girls.<br />That is what the &quot;Three on the boat-prophecy&quot; refers to.<br /><br />I have one problem. <br />Min said that Cadsuane is going to teach Rand &amp; all Asha'man something what they have to learn, but that none of them will like learning it from her at all.<br />From Cadsuane's conversations and POVs it's clear that she believes that Rand must learn (among other things) laughter and tears again, i.e. humanity and probably humility.  <br /><br />What do you think will Cadsuane teach them if not this?


created: 2003-12-17 16:09:23
subject: <b>AS</b>
body:
I think if Cadsuane doesn't teach them laughter and tears, it will be something about the Aes Sedai &amp; Asha'man working together.  Most Asha'man hate or are very weary of Aes Sedai, or are really cocky around them, so they wouldn't want to learn to work with them.   (and vice versa for the AS).  That needs to change so the &quot;good&quot; channelers can be more powerful at TG by linking.  Cadsuane and her homies have been around Asha'man more than any other AS and they have the best relationships.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 10:09:45
subject: <b>The 2nd one who likes Elayne</b>
body:
Being in exclusive company with Rabid Wombat is an honor.<br /><br />In addition, I agree with Deadsy. Cadsuane is going to teach Rand and the Asha`man that they must find common ground with the Aes Sedai, in order to win the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 10:20:15
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I think the point of your post kind of slipped away from you by the end of the theory, but who cares, because it's a good read regardless.  <br /><br />I think you've put the situation regarding Rand's 3 loves into perspective better than anyone I've seen before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 12:24:19
subject: <b>Nah. that was the point, but the journey there was long and tortuous</b>
body:
Kind of like Wheel of Time, if you think about it.  My point was that it will be someone close to him who will teach him laughter and tears, and Aviendha has the tools.  I saw a lot of people post on this topic elsewhere the opinion that Min will do it, or Elayne, through the birth of their kids.  I felt I had to explain why Aviendha is the most likely and best qualified of the three women to teach him.  It makes sense that they will have an important role to play in regards to him, otherwise why have the Pattern bother with amking him have three different girlfriends?  They all must be important to him for reasons beyond their relationship (Rand could tell that Elayne and Min were in danger at Falme, even though he wasn't aware they were within a thousand miles, and was not presently &quot;with&quot; either of them), and this is one way Aviendha will be important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 15:30:34
subject: <b>Psych 101</b>
body:
Very interesting psychobabble. But it's going to take ALL of the girls, plus Cadsuane, plus even Alanna to show rand again that he is, along with being the Dragon Reborn, a male channeler, and the hingepin of humanity's future, he is simply a man. <br /><br />That's what matters, that he not forget WHY he must do what he must do. For a time now, he's been operating on simply THAT he must do it, shielding himself from the weight of that duty by walling off his humanity. That is what Cadsuane is referring to when she says that his victory at TG, in this state, would be worse than his defeat.<br /><br />Cadsuane will teach Rand and all the Asha'man something, something they will not like learning one bit. The automatic assumption is that this 'lesson' will be embarassing or humiliating for them. That isn't necessarily so. It could very well be that Cadsuane knows something about Saidin, or about male channelers, or even channelers in general, something they will rather wish they didn't learn. Who knows? RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-03 22:07:56
subject: <b>Ego, Superego, Id</b>
body:
Okay, so I agree with your theory for the most part, until you blatantly misuse references to Freuadian psychoanalytic theory.  <br /><br />&quot;...and in his emotional life, it will be Aviendha who is the Fruedian &#8216;Ego&#8217; to Elayne&#8217;s &#8216;Super-Ego&#8217; and Min&#8217;s &#8216;Id.&#8217;&quot;<br /><br />WTF?  How is Min related to primitive side of our consciousness, which is driven by the desire to release tension through instant gratification.  If anyone is immature in the bunch, it's Elayne.<br />     And Elayne as the seat of conscience and moral judgement?  Not bloody likely ...<br />     Aviendha is the most plausible of the corelations, and even then it's a stretch.  Ego entails the delay of the id-based pleasure principle, a stronger base in reality than the other two components.  It is the mediator and decision maker based on information from 1) the superego (moral judgement), 2) the id (instant gratification), and 3) the demands of reality.  Again, more plausible than the other two analogies, but stretching by a long shot.<br />     Overall sound theory and a proven knack for clearly putting thought into words, but a hint of advice:  leave psycholanalytic theory for the experts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Freudian Slip:  when you say one thing and mean your mother.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />is my hero!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 16:57:38
subject: <b>humility</b>
body:
I think that after Tarmon Gaidon, both Rand and the Ashaman that survive will be, understandably, quite happy with themselves, and if no-one is there to remind them they are not creators, and are just men (humility), then they may try to take over everywhere-as they are stronger than nearly all the Aes Sedai, thus igniting another war and so on...<br />So Cadsuane's purpose is to not only teach them to laugh &amp; cry, but to teach them humility.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-11 04:53:54
subject: <b>re: Psychobabble</b>
body:
I was drawing a paralell.  As far as Min = instant gratification: yes she does, in regards to his emotional pain.  She tries to make him feel better, even when it might be wiser to make him confront his feelings.  Kind of the emotional equivalent to taking a pain killer and running a race with a broken leg.  Feels good and lets you do what you want, but at what cost to the leg?  When someone is hurt, they want to feel better, and that is what Min does for Rand - makes him feel better, with no moral judgements.  Her reaction to his confession of killing Adley isn't &quot;Why did you kill him?&quot; or &quot;What did he do?&quot; or &quot;I'm sure you didn't mean to,&quot; instead she begins thinking of seducing him to take his mind off something that is obviously bothering him: &quot;Come on honey, forget that guilt and lose the clothes!&quot;  Nice and pleasant, yes.  Healthy, no.  <br />Elayne considers herself a coward because she feels fear when in danger.  This suggests to me that her values lean heavily towards intellectual abstracts and she rejects basic desires and feelings when they conflict with what she knows to be the right thing to do.  Note how easily she was dissuaded through logic from going to Rand's aid during the cleansing.  Aviendha had a premonition of danger, and backed it up with good reasons to stay away.  Min could not see past someone she cared about in pain, and had to be restrained with threats of force from distracting him, despite the fact that she knew what he was up to.<br /><br />In my admittedly limited understanding of Freudian psychology, the id wants what it wants, and cannot provide control.  The Ego and Super-Ego are the restraints and control upon it.  The Super-Ego, by contrast, makes all decisions based on abstract merit or moral value, rather than desirability or appetite, and the ego has to find the balance.  Min will make Rand feel good, even when it's not for the best in the long run; Elayne will agree with repressing pain and rejecting feelings that get in the way; Aviendha will seek the balance between the two for a more stable personality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 21:32:23
subject: <b>Not so much, no...</b>
body:
You're dismissing every reason why Rand is hard to begin with. One is because he trusts nobody. The only person he trusts completely is Min, and he even said he trusts her more than even Mat and Perrin - if he trusts a girl he only knew for a couple of years more than the people he grew up with, the people he needs more than anybody else to succeed, what does that say about the level of trust he has for everybody else? Furthermore, Aviendha hardly trusts anybody, either. As soon as Nynaeve said that Mat had threatened her, Aviendha went straight to her belt knife. And this is Mat we're talking about, yet she was still ready to run off and slit his throat. You're reasons for why Aviendha will be the one to teach him laughter and tears are completely valid, but it's like healing a splinter without taking the splinter out. If the reason Rand is hard is because there is nobody he feels he could trust then how could Aviendha change that, when she is practically the last person who can teach him to trust? To use the scenario with Mat again, Aviendha was willing to dismiss Nynaeve's tendencies to exaggerate and embelish when it comes to situations with men, she never once questioned Mat's motives for possibly threatening Nynaeve, and she completely disregarded everything she knew personally about Mat's character.<br /><br />Another reason, which you didn't mention once in your theory, was Lews Therin. We learn from Rand and Cadsuane's first meeting that hearing voices is a common thing for men who can channel, and we have Rand's own doubts as to whether Lews Therin ever really existed. Now I'm not going to protest in favor of Cadsuane teaching Rand laughter and tears, but I will say that so far Cadsuane knows the most about men channeling and their effects, other then the men who channel themselves. Aviendha knows nothing - not even about Lews Therin being inside Rand's head. Again, how can Aviendha be the one to teach Rand laughter and tears, when Lews Therin is one of the greatest reasons for Rand's increasing cruelty, when not only does Aviendha know nothing about Lews Therin dwelling in Rand's head, but wouldn't know what to make of it even if she did?<br /><br />Third, Aviendha completely dismisses everything regarding the Dragon Reborn. To her, Rand is just the Car'a'carn, and we know from all the Maidens that the Car'a'carn is still just a clan cheif, not a &quot;wetlander King&quot;. Furthermore, Aviendha also pays no attention, or shows even the slightest interest, in the politics of the mainlands, beyond Andor and Elayne. Yet this is another reason Rand pushes himself to become harder and harder, because of all the inner machinations and manipulations of the nobility, and the protesting and rebellions of the civilians, and those very mainlanders' need for Rand to be the &quot;wetlander King&quot; that Aviendha and all the other Aiel scoff at. If she does not understand the necessity for Rand to be a &quot;wetlander King&quot; and disregards every difference between a &quot;wetlander King&quot; and an Aiel clan chief, how can she help him in that matter? They're cultures and beliefs demand entirely different things from Rand, and he needs to be both, and Aviendha can only help him with one - being the Aiel clan Chief Car'a'carn.<br /><br />You're suggesting that Aviendha can teach Rand to embrace it all, but you're forgetting that that is exactly what is making him hard. The fact that he is embracing. He has long since stopped trying to fight, and his relationship with Lews Therin is the greatest example. He no longer ignores him, or pushes him down. In fact, he now has full-blown conversations with him, and even sought his aid in Dumai's Wells. He has fully embraced being the Dragon Reborn, and because he believes that the Dragon Reborn must be hard to succeed, he has embraced the cruelty that is gradually spreading inside him. In the Shadow Rising, back when he still fought hard to maintain his humanity, he refused to start a war to gain power and a nation behind him. Now he not only starts wars to gain every nation in the mainlands, but he is the cause of all the divisions within those nations - Illian split when he became King, the Aiel split, Cairhien split, Andor split. This was was after when he not only embraced being the Dragon Reborn, but embraced everything that he thought it entailed - cruelty and hardness. Rand doesn't just need to learn to fight, but he needs to learn the reason that he should fight.<br /><br />All in all, I doubt that it will be Aviendha.


created: 2007-07-12 04:32:40
subject: <b>lol 4 years behind but it was a good read... however</b>
body:
I don't really agree with you, with so many above reasons. However i do disagree it will be cadsuane to teach him laughter and tears.<br /><br />IMO it will be either Moiraine or Tam. I say Tam because now Tam is out of Two Rivers, and knows Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and will want to see him.<br />Don't forget Rand did have the opportunity to see the Two Rivers once, but he shunned it, as well as his regret when the Two Rivers girls saw him in book 6. He likes being remembered as &quot;just a farmboy&quot; and Tam I reckon, one of the only few who will treat him more or less no differently as he did. Just the sight of him may do the trick.<br />How can you not cry when the man who taught you everything, more or less the only adult he could trust 100% completely (being the only parent) which you then abandoned, comes back? That kind of reunion would cause tears in itself.<br /><br />Anyhu, loved your analysis of each relationship.


created: 2008-12-01 23:27:29
subject: <b>Tam al'Thor</b>
body:
Your assessment of the relationships surrounding Rand are insightful and accurate.  <br /><br />I, however, must hope that Cadsuane manages to bring Rand back to his humanity by arranging a much anticipated encounter between Rand and his (surrogate) father, Tam. <br /><br />This makes more than sentimental sense.  Tam, a blademaster, managed to recover from madness of war to become the man Rand most admires and loves.  That recovery resulted in Rand himself: Tam cared enough not only to save the orphaned child, but to take on the fathering of the child himself: in other words, to allow the promise of the lives lost in war to be reborn in the fathering of new life.<br /><br />Rand does not seem able to turn the experience of loss into an affirmation of the love which makes it so painful.  I do not think that an encounter with his own child(ren) will be adequate either (the possibility of loosing them will only harden him more).  <br /><br />Perhaps what he needs is to hear how the very man he is modeled after has coped with loss.


created: 2009-06-25 21:57:55
subject: <b>I completely disagree</b>
body:
First of all sorry if my english is wrong at some point, im not a native english speaker.<br /><br />Ive read some posts and i think you guys got all wrong. Probably someone got to the same conclusion as me but i didnt read all the posts.<br /><br />Rand is after all a country guy, Lan calls him shepherd (i guess thats the word in english if its not i mean &quot;guy who takes care os sheep&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />all the time and probably lan is the dude who rand respects the most, Why? because Lan was important before rand was the dragon reborn. So, ive always beleived that if someone is going to reteach rand anything that would be a person who knew rand when he was still a redneck. At first i though it would be tam al`thor. You know how the scene would play &quot;o my son what ar you now bla bla bla&quot; &quot;yes dad you woundt believe how much ive beeen through cry cry im sorry i didnt came to pay a visit cry cry and more bla&quot; <br /><br />BUT since suddenly moraine is alive somewhere im certain it will be her who will bring back his humanity. She was the one who taught him everything anyway. Although he didnt pay attetion to her because he is a jackass when she died he realized how important she really was. Its because of her rand decided to harden up, he will never forgive himself he let her die because he was such a whimp he didnt kill lanfear, then he decided to be hard as stone so nothing like that would happen again. <br /><br />So, in short my point is that when moraine finally meets rand again (it will be awsome by the way) she will forgive him, he will fall into his knees and burst into tears.


created: 2003-12-16 17:45:03
subject: <b>Thought provoking</b>
body:
That is one of the best theories I've ever had the privelage of reading. It has a sound basis, was well reasoned-out, and the presentation flowed smoothly from one thought to the next.<br /><br />It might be lacking some evidence, but perhaps RJ hasn't quite given us enough in this area either.<br /><br />Congratulations!<br />I give it a big thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 22:16:01
subject: <b>You are essentially saying that Fain is like the agent Smith</b>
body:
And moridin is like the neo, and that the two will annihilate each other.<br /><br />I see one problem with your own analysis.<br /><br />You proposed that the true power's opposite is Fain.<br /><br />Why cannot the Creator also have a type of true power?  Wouldnt' that make equal sense?<br /><br />Then if we do that we have a trinity and not a duo.<br /><br />Interesting.


created: 2003-12-16 22:33:10
subject: <b>Like it!</b>
body:
i agree. Good Job!  The light will have to use the two evils against each other and that will take everyone that can breath and maybe a few of the dead to!


created: 2003-12-16 23:43:50
subject: <b>Original!</b>
body:
Very original ideas.  Nice work!  I'll be looking for this in all the books now!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 02:08:06
subject: <b>A bit more!</b>
body:
Since posting this I've found a couple more quotes that support the theory.<br /><br />When in Shadar Logoth in<i>The Eye of the World</i> Moiraine says:<br /><br /><i>...you would know that I set wards around the building.  A Myrdddraal would not even know these wards were there, for it is a different kind of evil they are meant to stop, but what resides in Shadar Logoth will not cross them, or even come too near.</i><br /><br />As you can see, as far back as the first book we can see that Robert Jordan had this duality to the Dark Powers planed out.  There are two sources of evil in Randland.<br /><br />Yet later in <i>The Eye of the World</i> Aginor states in reference to the dagger:<br /><br /><i>An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.</i><br /><br />As you can see the the Forsaken recognized the evil of the dagger.  They recognize it as both friend and enemy.  This is yet another clue deposited in the first book noting the relationship between the two parts of the dark powers.<br /><br /><br /><b>To Scion</b><br /><br />The creator does have an equivalent to the True Power, it is called the One Power.  It is all about equals and opposites.<br /><br />Thanks for the comments all!<br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-17 08:36:16
subject: <b>Awesome theory</b>
body:
I`d like to start with a big Bravo. I love this theory. <br /><br />Secondly I`d like to pass an idea on to you. Now, to me Fain`s dagger is almost like a ter`angreal, passing this &quot;power&quot; on, and spreading it throughout the immediate vicinity. It essentialy allows one to &quot;tap into&quot; this blue power. Now, if there was to be made a sa`angreal for the True Power, or just the red portion, you could gain something quite like the sa`angreal that Rand and Nyn use in WH. Now, if Moridin, and Fain were to focus both of their powers simultaniously on the OP (don`t ask me how) could they not do what Rand and Nyn did only opposite? Instead of forcing the two evils, or powers together to destroy eachother, could they not FURTHER separate Saidin from Saidar, and preventing them from being used to gether again? Just an idea.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 14:07:25
subject: <b>Agree partly</b>
body:
I agree with what you said about the nature of Saidin-Saidar on the one hand, and True Power-SL Power on the other hand. Good comments here.<br /><br /><br />I disagree especially with one thought, though:<br /><br /><b> This may also explain why the seals to the Dark One's prison are getting weaker. While made from indestructible cuendillar, the seals are deteriorating and breaking. Many believe this to be because Saidin was tainted when they were formed, but I propose that this is actually because the Dark One is pushing his (red) power against them. The seals were made from Saidin alone because the female Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends did not agree with the proposed assault on the Dark One by Lews Therin and the 100 companions. It is possible that if the seals were made from cuendillar created with the combined strength of both Saidin and Saidar the Dark One would not be able to break free. </b><br /><br />Actually the seals were certainly made by women &amp; men together. <br /><br />While the realisation of the plan was later done by LTT &amp; his companions alone after the disruption in the Hall of Servants, originally also women should participate and the seals had been already constructed at this time (see &quot;The Strike on Shayol Ghul&quot; ).<br /><br />Also the colour of the seals, half white and black, indicates that men &amp; women were involved. We know that female cuendillar is white from CoT, apparently male heartstone is black.<br /><br />Besides, it makes only sense that both genders were involved because as you said &quot;the greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so, joining Saidin and Saidar, as the True Source is joined.&quot;<br /><br />The problem (or the luck) was that only male Aes Sedai carried out the plan, and thus (only) saidin could be tainted. <br /><br /><br />Finally remember that Fain has not only the SL power but also still some abilites from the DO. <br />Both powers merged somehow in Fain.


created: 2003-12-19 01:09:28
subject: <b>No, he's right about the seals-kinda</b>
body:
Yes, the Discs themselves were made by men and women.  However, they are merely the focuses on which the men used saidin to seal the Bore.    The Discs are the corporeal representations of the actual saidin seals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-20 01:35:25
subject: <b>Superb</b>
body:
Theory, the best I have read so far. Apart from the making of the seals I agree with everything. Well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Night_Watcher</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-21 00:51:19
subject: <b>This might answer another question!</b>
body:
Many people have been wondering if there will be channeling after the DO gets fried, or whatever in the next age. Well, if Moredeth combines/implodes/cancels the DO's power with his evil, that would mean no more dark energy. So what happens to the good stuff. Maybe it just fades away too.... because it would no longer have a second half?<br /><br />just a thought. Although my little theory might be debunked becuase this could be taken a step farther... if there's no more bad then there's no more good, and that means the complete end of the world. Just something to think about I guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-22 19:45:59
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
That is one of the best theory's I've ever read. Excellently thought out and researched. I especially liked the bit about the cleansing. I had never really understood how it worked..... Very Good.


created: 2003-12-23 01:14:39
subject: <b>A couple more things!</b>
body:
Thanks for the additional posts everyone.<br /><br /><b>To Etzel</b><br /><br />Yes you are correct about the physical seals being made by both the male and female <i>cuendillar</i>.  I recgonized this when I read Crossroads of Twilight, but did not think of this when I wrote the theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However <b>The_Wandering_Gambler</b> did a good job of answering the question for me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just to add a couple more quotes to support the theory.  Once again both of these quotes come from the Eye of the World.<br /><br />In Old Friends and New Threats:<br /><br /><i>But a Fade could sense it for miles.  Even though he would not know exactly where, he would know it was near, <b>and Mashadar would draw his spirit while his bones remembered that this same evil swallowed an army - Dreadlords, Fades, Trollocs, and all.</b></i><br /><br />This is more early proof that the two evils are attracted towards each other, but are enemies.<br /><br />And later in More Tales of the Wheel:<br /><br /><i>&quot;It was evil against evil in the ruins of Shadar Logoth,&quot; Moiraine continued, &quot;<b>foul fighting vile</b>...&quot;</i><br /><br />Once again the note foul fighting vile, implies two seperate evils that are enemies.<br /><br />There are a very large number of supporting quotes to this theory in the first book alone, where the groundwork for the entire series was lain.  Both sides of evil and both sides of good.  I don't think that Robert Jordan has laid very much else so clearly if you look at it.<br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-25 13:21:03
subject: <b>Exactlly Right</b>
body:
I was thinking along the same lines for a very long time now just didn't have the time to write the theory <br />(nice idea with the red/blue colors)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-27 23:33:53
subject: <b>Fain and the Fade</b>
body:
A fine theory.  One question about the powers of Fain - what exactly was he able to do to the Fade, the one he was somehow torturing?  You don't torture a Fade just by being duplicitous and corrosive.  Seems he must have picked up some kind of &quot;power&quot; along the way.<br /><br />I wonder about the Fain = Gollum part.  Sounds reasonable to me, if sadly unoriginal.  When I read the scene in TGH when Fain's secretly pining after the dagger in front of Turok, I can almost hear him saying &quot;These thieving Seachan, they're tricksy, we wantsss the preciousss, yesss, it wass ssstolen from usss, oh yes, my preciousss...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 07:34:21
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
Although there is very little solid proof, your theory is very logical and plausible. Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic,Arial"><font color="#FF0000">F</font><font color="#FF1500">l</font><font color="#FF2B00">i</font><font color="#FF4000">p</font><font color="#FF5500">p</font><font color="#FF6B00">i</font><font color="#FF8000">t</font><font color="#FF8000"> </font><font color="#FF9200">~</font><font color="#FFA400"> </font><font color="#FFB600">F</font><font color="#FFC900">l</font><font color="#FFDB00">i</font><font color="#FFED00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">i</font><font color="#DBFF00">t</font><font color="#B6FF00"> </font><font color="#92FF00">~</font><font color="#6DFF00"> </font><font color="#49FF00">F</font><font color="#24FF00">l</font><font color="#00FF00">i</font><font color="#00FF00">p</font><font color="#01DB24">p</font><font color="#00B649">i</font><font color="#00926D">t</font><font color="#006D92"> </font><font color="#0049B6">~</font><font color="#0024DB"> </font><font color="#0000FF">F</font><font color="#0000FF">l</font><font color="#2400FF">i</font><font color="#4900FF">p</font><font color="#6D00FF">p</font><font color="#9200FF">i</font><font color="#B600FF">t</font><font color="#DB00FF"> </font><font color="#FF00FF">~</font><font color="#FF00FF"> </font><font color="#ED00ED">F</font><font color="#DA01DA">l</font><font color="#C800C8">i</font><font color="#B600B6">p</font><font color="#A400A4">p</font><font color="#910091">i</font><font color="#7F007F">t</font></font><br /><font face="Century Gothic,Arial">History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it. ~ <i>Winston Churchill</i></font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 02:12:24
subject: <b>concerning gollum...</b>
body:
I think it would be really cool if Jordan didn't use the Gollum thing after giving us so many obvious clues that that is the way it is going to happen.  It seems like something he would do.  Maybe have Fain run in after the DO, but moridin just vaporizes him scornfully <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mind is in constant need of stimulation.  If boredom was an olmypic sport, I'd have been dq'd for steroids.<br />Yarr...I am...not attractive - The Sea Captain<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />If wishes were wings, pigs would fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 19:42:14
subject: <b>Machin Shin</b>
body:
I really like this theory, the only thing I disagree with is that Machin Shin is part of the &quot;Red&quot; power, and not the &quot;Blue&quot;.  It is a result of the taint on Saidin that was used to create the Ways.  Machin Shin tries to take over Fain and then flees from him, because Fain's &quot;Blue&quot; power evil is so strong that Machin Shin is repulsed by it.<br /><br />Other than that (and I could certainly be wrong), this theory is well thought out, especially about something where there isn't a whole lot of hard facts from the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~rhiane<br /><br />&quot;The days were evil; it was a busy time.&quot;<br />     --Sir James Melville, courtier to Mary, Queen of Scots</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 16:09:08
subject: <b>one power more neutral?</b>
body:
There is one flaw to this theory.  The theory seems to state that there are many opposites in WOT.  So it seems the true power is the opposite of the one power, with saidin and saidar being opposites and red power and blue power being opposites.  However, the forsaken and dreadlords can tap into saidin and saidar.  Now, the the red power corrupts (black flecks, poison, etc.) and the blue power definately corrupts fain.  Therefore, forsaken that tap into the one power (opposite of true power) would be expected to be uncorrupted.  This is not the case.<br /><br />It seems that the one power is more of a melding of good and evil, or neutral.  While the symbol for the Aes Sedai make up the true power with black and white, the true power may compose the true power and another power.  This power may be ta'veren (no forsaken are seen as ta'veren, only good guys) or effects of the pattern and the wheel turning.<br /><br />This may be supported by the fact that God made Satan, or evil.  The Creator thus could be assumed to have made everything, including the Dark One.  Reality is composed of good and evil.  Creation and the true power are composed of good and evil motives.<br /><br />This may also be an answer to those &quot;afraid&quot; of what will happen if the DO is actually defeated and Rand stops the wheel.  Good triumphs over evil, and the world still exists, but in much a different way, not in Rand's image.


created: 2004-03-24 16:15:56
subject: <b>quick correction</b>
body:
That should be the one power is neutral, with the true power on one side and a good power on the other side. Always check your message before you submit. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  The good power could also be composed of two natures.  One active- the actions of ta'veren and rethreading of the weaves by its pull, and the passive- the theories by many that the wheel and pattern are working against evil in spewing out more heroes against evil.  It may also be seen as an opposite of the true power, in that it is less visible and more subtle than the true power,


created: 2004-04-06 13:20:46
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
I actually submitted a theory something like this a while back, although not quite as detailed, but the idea was the same... but it wasn't posted.  I guess they just weren't ready for it... (sigh).<br /><br />Yours is a hell of a lot better than mine, though, much more thought out.  You have a lot more evidence supporting it...  This theory is pretty much perfect, exactly how I thought of the True power (red) and what I called the Untrue power (blue), just for the sake of having a name...<br /><br />I have a minor gripe about a couple of things, since the cuendillar subject has already been discussed, I'd like to adress the machin shin being part of the blue power...<br /> <br /><br />It seems that machin shin was born from the corruption of the ways due to the taint, the True power (red).  Now, Fain seems to have a combination of red and blue powers, but if the they had combined in him, wouldn't they have cancelled each other.  Yes, they would have, I have a different theory (in fact, I think I'll post my idea as an offshoot of your theory on the Theory Post).<br /><br />First of all, it seems that Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) used the True Power on good old Fain in order to turn him into the watch dog.  Now, later, his mind was distilled with more of the True Power, and he became even more screwed up, because of the corrosive qualities of that power.  However, the amount of blue power in Shadar Logoth was probably much greater than the amount of True Power used to transform him.  I believe that Mordeth tried to consume his soul, and the initial neutralization reaction took place.  But, Mordeth was much stronger than the small bit of True Power used, so he over whelmed it, and took over.  Maybe this is what happened with Machin Shin.  The dagger is like a blue power sa'angreal, and it amplified his powers enough so that he could overwhelm the true power in Machin Shin, and turned it into blue Machin Shin... hmm... its interesting, but I don't know if it holds water... just a thought.<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, saidar by itself removed the blue power's influence from Mat, but could not touch the true power (red) at all.  I don't know if saidin could have affected it, because by the time a male healer was around, both halves of the Dark Power were already at work in his body, but maybe the True Power and saidin are connected in some way, and the blue power and saidar are connected... ... ... or maybe not, once again, just an interesting thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 20:04:56
subject: <b>nice theory...</b>
body:
i don't agree, but it's an excellent and well written theory, very original, unlike the dozens of &quot;Taimandred&quot; theories i have had the &quot;pleasure&quot; of reading. i think the true power is just one thing though, because when Lanfear and that guy (dont remember his name) drill the bore in the Age of Legends, they are drilling to a source that will &quot;remove the differences between male and female&quot;...not an exact quote...but anyway theres no difference between male and female halves of the true power. I think Fain is a special case, he was able to survive various other evils because he has already been corrupted so much by the Dark One or Ishamael, not sure which. now all these evils have mixed together and undergone some kind of a reaction to become a new Power that hasnt ever been seen before.


created: 2004-07-08 21:54:17
subject: <b>Torval and Gedwyn</b>
body:
Is that why they came walking into the room after they were killed?  I could never figure that part out; after reading CoT I figured it was because the dead seem to be walking around again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Serenallein <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the eunuch said to the abbess, I'd oblige if I could, but I can't.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-30 11:26:32
subject: <b>fantastic</b>
body:
i love this theory.  the ground work you did is commendable.  it links things together very well, and willhelp me to pay attention to a few things i have been skipping over.  great job.


created: 2004-11-09 18:10:51
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I havent read this entire theory or the other posts to know whether or not its been remarked on, but it seems to me that if the DO had this &quot;Red Power&quot; wouldnt the creator be the opposite of the DO and therefore hold a power of his own, rather than Padan Fain?   Some of what i read makes sense, but most of it not.   You commented on the fact that Mashadar was present at Damordreds camp right?   Can we assume that instead of an ability to channel brought on by the Dagger or the presence of Mordeth in Fain, that we might establish another more reasonable possiblity?   <br />We know that Fain has been joined in the skin by Mordeth in shadar logoth.   We know that Mordeth was the one who brought the corruption to Shadar Logoth, is it to far fetched to believe that Mordeth might have a rudimentry control over that shadow hating taint?   That he could possibly bring it out and infest the world with it?   The proof of this is that Fain seems to infect everything hes in contact with for even a short period of time.   For example the the second book the guards to the prison, which i still believe were NOT darkfriends, but infected by Fain and inevitably freeing him because of that infection.   The whitecloaks that follow Fain are example number two.   And example number three is the dagger itself can infect the carrier, what do you think Mordeth can do?


created: 2005-04-03 13:48:10
subject: <b>Implication</b>
body:
A very good thory! It has the most radical thinking I've seen yet on the Theory Post. I always thought of Shadar Logoth's evil as an equal and opposite to the Dark One, but I never linked it to the True Power. Your theory does bring some interesting implications.<br /><br />Firstly, what will happen in the next ages if the Dark One's prison is sealed? Surely there can't be five subsequent ages where evil is nonexistent? Your theory adds an excellent possibility to how these ages will look. Some ages might be dominated by the &quot;blue&quot; kind of evil, instead of the &quot;red&quot; kind, and people will worry about that evil, not the Dark One.<br /><br />Secondly, if the Dark One has an equal/opposite, then perhaps the Creator has one to? It would make sense in some ways.<br /><br />Maybe I'll have to write my own theory on these subjects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-29 19:22:30
subject: <b>I really like this theor</b>
body:
Especially the analogue between Red Power/Blue Power and Acid/Base. Seperately both can destroy you, but when they meet they destroy each other!<br /><br />Keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-30 20:31:44
subject: <b>Awesome!!!!</b>
body:
This was REALLY well done.<br /><br />and for SmellyLama (sweet name)<br />Surely there can't be five subsequent ages where evil is nonexistent?<br /><br />There would only be two ages with no &quot;evil&quot;. WoT takes place in the third age and the DO is realesed in the first (as far as i can tell anyways).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am a blademaster.  My blades are my life, without them I am nothing.  I am a puppet master.  Humanity dances by my strings.  I am an assassin.  The shadows are my friends.  Fear me.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-06 23:49:29
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I really like this theory and I think I have a bit to add to it.<br /><br />The Dark One is the antithesis of the Creator, the opposite of creation in general. He is entirely beyond the human scope of understanding, just as the Creator is - both are pure embodiment rather than fragmentations. So, the &quot;Red Power&quot; which flows from the Dark One is a &quot;generalized&quot; evil as an opposite to &quot;generalized&quot; good; the &quot;Blue Power&quot; is, which seems to be man-mad, is the embodiment of a very specific sort of evil - human evil.<br /><br />This seems to be supported by Nyvaeve's quote. Of course human evil would be a &quot;mirror&quot; of &quot;pure&quot; evil, though that does not make it any less destructive.


created: 2003-12-16 15:28:29
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
... but probably not true.<br />I voted yes though, since it was so original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 15:47:18
subject: <b>I doubt it</b>
body:
&quot;It is possible to talk with him. Go to SG, into the Pit of Doom, and you can...hear him. You can...bathe in his presence.&quot; This is Lanfear talking to Rand in the Stone of Tear. Notice she says you have to go into the Pit of Doom to hear him? <br /><br />Of course RJ could fool us all with a twist like this. But LTT has helped Rand out on several occasions with weaves, and warning of the Gray Man. Plus Rand is taking on traits of LTT like thumbing his ear and humming as well as drawing.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 17:11:28
subject: <b>Doubt it</b>
body:
There has been several times when Rand held on to himself by the thinnest of margins.  If it was the DO, why wouldn't he try this more?  Just take over Rand and it's game over.


created: 2003-12-16 17:35:21
subject: <b>kudos to you</b>
body:
for effort and actualy plausibility. i doubt it, but one never knows. great job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 22:23:04
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
I like this theory remember Rand is more useful to DO if he controlled or becomes Nae'blis than he is dead it could very well be possible and than again it might not.......muahhahahahaha.....RAFO.


created: 2003-12-16 22:32:22
subject: <b>Two things.</b>
body:
1) It's impossible. 'Lews Therin' doesn't talk in all capital letters, therefore, it is impossible that he is the Dark One.<br /><br />2) Really, a well done theory. I don't agree with it, but it's really well done. Have a cookie.


created: 2003-12-16 23:11:34
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
yes, Lanfear did say that to Rand in the Stone. But at that point, only 3 seals were busted. A key point of my theory is that LTT didn't start taking an active interest in Rand until after another seal was broken.<br /><br />Secondly, the DO speaks in all caps at the Pit of Doom. It is there that the pattern is the thinnest, allowing the DO the easiest access. At most other points in the pattern, I think the DO's voice would be more muffled. We'll find out when Rand goes to Shayol Ghul. If LTT gets really loud...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 12:58:38
subject: <b>No!</b>
body:
This idea was already suggested in the past but it's wrong.<br /><br />If the DO could speak to Rand in his mind, he would more than ever be able to speak to his Forsaken. <br />But we see that the Forsaken have to come to the Pit of Doom to speak with their master (or now probably due SH) which would make no sense if the DO could directly contact them. <br />It's even said that you can only hear the DO in the Pit. <br /><br />Furthermore, the voice knows what Rand is doing and helps him. <br />The DO obviously doesn't know immediately everything what Rand does, he needs spies. <br /><br />Also what the voice says suits rather a mad man like LTT than the DO. <br /><br />Plus, we know that Rand also gets memories &amp; abilities from LTT (and not the DO).<br /><br />Finally RJ himself admitted that LTT's soul is reborn in Rand, thus it's much more likely that Rand hears indeed LTT.<br /><br />All in all, it's clear that Lews Therin is Lews Therin.


created: 2003-12-17 15:43:47
subject: <b>A minor problem</b>
body:
You have grabbed a number of quotes that could be interpreted in the manor you've described, but you've left out many that cannot be thus interpreted.  In WH, while Rand is talking to Verin in Far Madding, LTT mentions to Rand that &quot;sometimes that woman scares me.&quot;  Rand thinks about Cadsuane at this point, though I believe the comment was directed at Verin.  Why would the DO be scared of either woman?  He wouldn't.  LTT also continuously states that he deserves death, would the DO claim that?  Nope.  Sorry, but this theory doesn't hold water.  Nice work, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 17:52:34
subject: <b>An interesting twist</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be hilarious, though, if Rand followed &quot;Lews Therin's&quot; instructions to repair the patch on the Bore, and ended up helping the Dark One escape? <br /><br />Most of these points seemed iffy to me. You could probably make a good case for Rand being a Darkfriend if you twisted quotes around enough. The point about Lews Therin being the only one who wants the Seals broken does seem interesting, though... <br /><br />Moridin's reflection that it is impossible to lose at sha'rah while playing yourself would fit well with this theory.<br /><br />There needs to be an 'Undecided' option on Theory Post votes...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 11:29:07
subject: <b>How would you explain...</b>
body:
In tFoH when Lew Therin almost took over Rand's body? Or the fact that he wants to kill Taim (who is obviously evil) and all the male forsaken who serve him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Insert signature here</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 04:23:31
subject: <b>talk is cheap</b>
body:
Until Lews Therin manages to take over Rand's body and actually kill one of the Forsaken, I'm gonna stick to my theory. He has never actually taken over, and it makes me think that he can't. It does, however, drive Rand crazy. (Crazy? hmmmmm.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 15:27:52
subject: <b>Very well thought</b>
body:
Your theory is very well thought out, and its quite possible your on to something, but I disagree,like some others who have replyed.<br />1.  Go to SG, into the Pit of Doom, and you can...hear him. You can...bathe in his presence.&quot;  Lanfear talking to Rand in the Stone of Tear. <br /><br />2. The DO speaks in caps.<br /><br />3. LTT has help Rand out many times in the past<br /><br />4 If the DO was indeed free, I tend too think he is Mazrim Taimn, or MT is a dark friend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-20 06:12:12
subject: <b>The theory is RIGHT! Read this!</b>
body:
I think that your theory is very on-to it. Listen to the simple ideas i have to say please. First of all... it can only be expected that RJ would come up with a HUGE TWIST after writing... what? 13 books? So of course a twist to change the entire plot is expected, it would be too good to miss, and this could very well be that twist. And a few of you mentioned that Lews Therin (the supposed voice) has very many times missed the opportunity to take over Rand's body/mind. But maybe this kinda thing might be too much and instead kill Rand (and rand is better off to the DO alive than dead). Anyhow, trust is also a very good weapon, the DO may be trying to earn trust with rand, so that rand slowly does the things the DO says. And the thing about the insanity is just the 'Lews Therin Disguise' and if Rand feeds off this insanity then it's all the better for the DO, for if rand is insane, it's far easier to manipulate him. I think that this theory is right. (The best twists are the ones that you find hard to accept, and none of you accept this one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />)


created: 2003-12-20 22:59:20
subject: <b>good point, metamorphasis</b>
body:
hopefully it's not, but if it would...yikes, that would definately explain some of the fisher king thing and how moridin's so sure rand is/ can be pinned down.<br /><br />we'll rafo.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-21 01:11:04
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
People keep assuming that because he's the dragon reborn, that he would hear voices of his past life.<br /><br />If so, why only voice? Why not the thousands he's apparently fought the DO in? <br /><br />The DO has stated he wants Rand alive, so if the theories right, we would EXPECT the voice to help him out sometimes. <br /><br />Futhremore, doesn't Mat have a significant number of memories in his head from his past lives &quot;I want my memories back&quot; was one of his wishes. But guess what, you don't hear voices talking in his head! Furthermore Mat is picking up traits from his past life too: war skills, multiple dialects of the old language.... and still NO VOICES.<br /><br />The people that hear the voices have a specific connection to the DO, and thats the taint on Saidin (did at least). As soon as the taint goes away the voices get less frequent. <br /><br />As to why the rest of the forsaken don't have the DO in their head, well they are protected from the taint. We've seen before that too much contact wiht the dark one, like his true source or whatever makes people sick and crazy. He can't have his own henchman completely crazy just so he can page them whenever he wants to. <br /><br />The fact that there are others that have past memories that don't hear voices, and the fact that the only ones that do are those with a connection to the taint...clearly suggests to me evidence that he is hearing the dark one. Incidently breaking the seals is exactly what the dark one wants , not LTT, he put them in place... Unless you want to make the argument that he knew he made a mistake. <br /><br />IN my opinion, the DO has a connection to rand, and any male channeler with the taint. A connection into their mind, where he can tap into....<br /><br />Besides, where does Rand hear voices, the back of his head, ? It sounds an aweful lot like the place where he channels from to me... The same part of his mind because they are coming from the same place (or whereabouts). More speculation... but I love the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 14:38:10
subject: <b>Mat's Memories</b>
body:
I'll get there in a moment. I very much appreciate the thorough method applied to this theory, and the points are well made. But, as with so many others, I don't believe it or agree with it. Lew Therin has things to say about Ilyena, Mierin(Lanfear), and others that would have no value coming from the DO, not even as subterfuge, since most of those comments had no real impact on the defensive and resistant Rand.<br /><br />And other times, when Lews Therin was first speaking, he asks if he's dead. He asks other questions that would not come from the DO in a way to influence Rand. Then there's Cadsuane. Please. LTT shrieks and hides when she's around. I really think Shai'tan would even pretend to be afraid of some arrogant AS. not. I'd sooner believe that Cadsuane herself was the DO. Hmmmm.....<br /><br />Back to Mat's memories. They are NOT, I repeat not, his own. They are not memories of his past lives. The simplest proof I can offer of this is that he has memories from men on both sides of the same battle. No, his request to the foxes, though he didn't realize it was a wish to be granted by them at the time, was that he wanted the holes in his past filled in. They were, just not with his original memories as he'd hoped, but with those of military people from all generations of the Age. As the snakes knew what Mat's destiny would be, the foxes knew how it must be implemented.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-11 19:17:07
subject: <b>WRONG!!! ...try again please</b>
body:
It's a kind of interesting theory but the quotes you used are too weak and they can be as easily interpreted as the ravings of a psycho who massacred his family just as well as it can be interpreted as the voice of evil incarnate. Some of the quotes even disprove themselves.<br />The quote about Ilyena for example. I mean, the voice gives specific information about Ilyena that the DO could never know because Ilyena wasn't a darkfriend (hmmm...or so we think!).<br />Also, people who have lived past lives seem to retain their knowledge of their past in some way or another. Birgitte has knowledge of 1000s of battles thanks to her past lives and Mat's memories are also most likely form a past life of some way. So therefore I's say that this is Rand's way of retaining his memories of his past lives, having a ranting crazy guy in his head...great...


created: 2004-01-16 21:26:54
subject: <b>Very thoguhtfull but no</b>
body:
OK Lews Therin is Lews Therin. Your forgetting Min's veiwing of rand merging with one man dead adn one alive. The DO never died but LT did. The reason for is anxiety for trying to break the seals was probally if the DO was freed then LT would be freed. With the whole going insane of vioces thing. THey were being told to kill every, LT only deos that when he is around ppl who can channel mainly men. The DO cannot touch Rand its impossible. BEcause the Creator looks out for Rand in a way i mean when Rand gut cut from Pain's knife he didn't die within minuets he lasted much longer and how do u think he did? Not only the Creator kepping the cut from spreading but also the darkness in Rand;s old injurey. Maybe the end point is when Rand faces the DO he isan't really facing him instead he is facing The highest servant of the DO. Cause the tales sya that teh Creator bound the DO for ever. Maybe one of the DO's most powerful minions was able ot get on the veyr edge of the sealing. Like in the Simerillion of LOTR. Souron was once a servant to the bigger guy whatever his name was. Rand's voices are really Lews THerin because Rand is starting to fully become the Dragon. Soon he will have anceiint memories be able to peak the Old Tounge adn so on. I think the DO can't seep into teh world  he cnaonly use his most powerful pawn  to help him rule. Rand is really hearing a tortured soul of Lews THerin. The DO isan't yet powerful enough to touch the world. Only when the last seal is broken can the possible DO break through.


created: 2004-02-19 20:42:31
subject: <b>erm...the creator spoke to rand</b>
body:
at the end of EOTW...really im surprised that didnt faze rand a bit more, id be a bit shocked..anyway if the creator did that im thinking the DO couldnt also be in his head..or..something.  Anyway, nah, LTT just wants to break the seals to have it done with, hes pretty sick of all the rebirths and stuff (&quot;duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />it could be there is some odd link between LTT and the DO, that they are 2 aspects of the same..hell it could even be in some mad mad mad mad mad way that the dragon and the DO are 2 halves of the creator (yin, yan) and hey...tahts just crazy..wow thats way too crazy im off to post it as a theory!


created: 2004-02-21 00:48:19
subject: <b>Ishamael/moridin</b>
body:
I think the evidence points to Ishamael/Moridin because of the passage where he is contolling the board game and playing both sides.


created: 2004-02-28 09:47:46
subject: <b>cool</b>
body:
Great theory, and I would believe it if I didn't have my heart set on LTT. Nice job!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-10 09:58:28
subject: <b>The other one</b>
body:
One flaw I see in this theory is that Lews Therin mentions at some point 'the other one' who's voice LTT hears seemingly beside Rand's voice. - Eventually all males able to channel are somehow in contact with their past 'reincarnaions' - That brings Rand in contact with LTT and LTT in contact with the one before. Osan'gar should know that as well and therefore react on Cadsuane's remark.<br />


created: 2004-07-11 07:27:47
subject: <b>Well put together but</b>
body:
as others have said, the quotes can be used to prove whatever you want when taken out of context. I'm still subscribing to the LTT-is-actually-LTT school of thought but if you have hit the nail on the head, well we were warned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> Proud member of the C.A.N.A.R.I.E.S.S  and the Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisims and Their Rehabilitation In To Society. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-28 11:57:01
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I voted yes. Incredible amount of work in there! The theory made sense to me, and the quotes helped explain things. Your work paid off in my eyes!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chaos, panic, disorder-my work here is done.<br /><br />How do I set a laser printer for stun?<br /><br />Raine Sedai<br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Bonded to my Warders, Battle Ajah and ShadowAxe</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-13 11:46:13
subject: <b>I don't know what to believe me</b>
body:
I'm so lost and confused now. I suppose everyone and everything is right in some way or another. One day I hope the boks will be done, so then we can all just sit back and stare in awe or complain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Love always and forever,<br />Phoenix


created: 2005-01-17 19:25:19
subject: <b>Hhmm</b>
body:
actually, there's indeed lot of thought put in this theory but I really doubt it. Indeed, didn't Cadsuane said to Rand something like &quot;Have you started hearing voices yet?&quot; making me believe that every man who can channel suffer from this. Of course, since the taint on saidin is the Dark One touch, maybe the theory still stand.


created: 2005-02-11 01:06:02
subject: <b>Can't agree with this theory</b>
body:
If this theory were true, the Shadow would always know where Rand was and what he was doing. This would make it pointless to have Osan'gar watch Rand. And in <i>Winter's Heart</i> in which Rand has vanished the Forsaken have no idea where he is.


created: 2006-04-06 16:38:46
subject: <b>clever!</b>
body:
I often thought the Lews Therin voice was Demandred, caricaturing his rival, but this is even better. Wasn't the dark one described as &quot;the embodyment of chaos&quot;, of corse he's crazy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">we really need an edit button on the blackboard. I mean, who doesn't occasionally make a comment that (unintentionally) sounds really snooty, as if it insulted a lot of people's intelegence, then realize they mis-spelled it.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-01 12:31:05
subject: <b>This could be right, but what about Semirage</b>
body:
Ok it works all but when in KoD Semirhage reveals that this has happened and just not to other LTT's reborn.


created: 2008-08-31 15:11:49
subject: <b>unplausible</b>
body:
it cant be the DO because he would have to be linked in the 13 myrdraal theory and therefore the change would probably be instantaneous.even if the 13 were not required due to the magnitude of DO's power,it would mean that LTT was lost to the pattern forever instead of being reborn in rand,a point clearly vaunted by RJ,eg the WHEEL of time


created: 2009-08-20 06:34:31
subject: <b>no....</b>
body:
1) lews therin wants rand to destroy the seal so that they can get the battle with the DO over with and they can finally die<br />2) when LTT talks about hearing the dead talk to him he's referring to his guilt about killing his entire family<br />3) LTT wanted Galina dead because she caused him and rand severe physical pain, and LTT also hated Semirhage who happens to be into severe physical pain<br />4) LTT only speaks to rant about dead people and give rand andvice on how to kill the forsaken, who happen to be the slaves of the DO and i know he's all about may the best man win but he usually gives them a little less help with that goal<br />5) Any extra traits that rand has that are LTT's come over subconsciously


created: 2003-12-16 15:27:38
subject: <b>Good call</b>
body:
When I first read about those knife wounds behind the ear, Slayer was the one I thought about too.<br /><br />The second pair might not be so cut-and-dried, but Slayer is probably the best bet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 21:05:35
subject: <b>Works for me....</b>
body:
....looks as if Slayer was used to silence the theives if they failed, or possibly if they succeded as well.  <br /><br />Why not just send Slayer to steal the seals?  Too risky and besides Slayer isn't a thief, he's assasin.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 21:31:58
subject: <b>I have a problem with this!</b>
body:
Slayer, makes his gateway through Tel'aran'rhiod, does he not?<br /><br />Even if slayer makes his gateway through the realworld, I still think it would be difficult for him to kill the 2 men in Bashere's camp.<br /><br />His assination in the Stone, and in Cairhien, that makes sense.<br /><br />In those assinations, slayer knows the room where he can find his victims.  However, Bashere's camp happened outside.  How would have slayer known where to open his gateway?  There was a lot of margin of error in that, not like him opening gateways in a closed room where the boundaries are defined.  <br /><br />So, I still have a hard time believing it was slayer in the camps.<br /><br />Simeon is on the case!


created: 2003-12-16 21:36:06
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
Good theory.  It is likely that Slayer was behind the deaths of the DF thieves, as he was behind the death of the White Tower assassin in the second book.<br /><br />I just had to say one thing though.  Dobraine didn't crawl onto the litter after his attackers were killed.  He was placed on it by his retainers after they found him.  They thought he was dead and were ready to carry his corpse out of the room.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 23:46:24
subject: <b>Good theory, but...</b>
body:
When Slayer killed the Asha'man in Far Madding, didn't his daggers have a poison on them that also contributed to his death?  Was that a special case or is that his 'calling card' style of killing?  Otherwise I agree with you.


created: 2003-12-17 00:38:15
subject: <b>One Problem...</b>
body:
Why would the Shadow via Moiridin - send it's assassin to STOP ANYONE from getting the seals. Certainly, this would be a boon to the Shadow, if, as we suspect, Rand must clear away the old Seals to forge a new Seal. <br /><br />Good theory, but there is no Why! Especially Dobraine's, when it looked like they could have gotten them. <br />


created: 2003-12-17 07:03:46
subject: <b>Slayer would not have let Dobraine live</b>
body:
And whoever posted above has a good point about Slayer knowing where to find his victims.<br />Slayer never killed the Asha'man in Far Madding, that was Fain.  Slayer killed the couple who rented Rand &amp; Min's room after they all checked out.<br /><br />Dobraine is the most likely candidate to have killed his assailants.  Knife fights are not smooth, clean duels like the movies show - either one guy gets the drop on the other and kills him fast, or they start hacking each other to death.  The thieves were just that - thieves, not killers.  They carried forged letters and were suprised by the rightful residents in both cases, and failed to kill both times.  They plainly expected to get free access to the tent and rooms, and only Dobraine, Deira or Bashere could have spoiled it for them (in addition to the fact that the seals weren't kept where they looked), which is what happened.<br />Dobraine, who is a soldier and a warrior (remember Dumai's wells - he led 500 men into an army of Shaido, and lived to tell the tale) might have been suprised, but he was likely tough enough to hang on and kill both thieves before succumbing to his wounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 08:47:31
subject: <b>One correction</b>
body:
I wrote in my theory that &quot;after Slayer disappeared Dobraine managed to crawl onto the litter&quot;.<br />That is wrong like cynic79 said. <br /><br />I was absolutley sure that litter means something like a sofa. Therefore I didn't check the translation of this word (I'm German...). <br />Later I noticed that apparently the servants brought the litter to take Dobraine away on it.<br />Sorry, stupid translation mistake! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Thanks for the comments!<br /><br /><br />To Light in the Night,<br /> <br />I can't think who else could have killed the thieves, besides a Grey man. <br />But if the first attempt was important enough to send Slayer, why not the second.<br /><br /><br />To Columbo,<br /><br />Yes, stealing things is probably beneath Slayer. <br /><br /><br />To Scion,<br /><br />As I said, I believe Slayer can either see from TAR into the real world or find people via TAR (though it is difficult).<br /><br /><br />To amethera,<br /><br />It's possible that the Slayer used poisened daggers. <br />I doubt that the Randlanders know an autopsy to determine it. <br /><br /><br />To TheAngryDruid,<br /><br />Slayer was send to kill the thieves after their search, not to stop them.    <br /><br /><br />To Cannoli,<br /><br />Slayer did not know that Dobraine wasn't dead already. <br />Even the servants thought that and also Samitsu thinks he looks like dead and must be dead. <br /><br />Considering these wounds I seriously doubt that Dobraine managed to kill both thieves after they stabbed him.


created: 2003-12-17 09:10:59
subject: <b>How can Slayer find peope through Tar?</b>
body:
People cannot be seen in Tar.<br /><br />If people are in a certain, then their imprint can be seen, but Slayer did not know what room his victims would be in the Caemlyn Camp.<br /><br />Therefore, I just don't know if it was Slayer in Caemlyn.  It seems too difficult.  Possibly in Cairhien (in Dobraines room), but I don't know about anywhere else.


created: 2003-12-17 15:02:59
subject: <b>To Scion</b>
body:
I believe Slayer must have such a special ability. <br />He got several abilities from the DO. <br /><br />Slayer thinks that he doesn't use TAR like the Forsaken do.<br /><br />Besides, what better ability for an assassin than to find your victims via TAR and appear directly before them? <br />And we know that he did that in the Stone of Tear with the BA.


created: 2003-12-17 17:02:25
subject: <b>one thought</b>
body:
Interesting theory, best of the latest bunch.<br /><br />If Slayer can see people from Tar, why does he make the mistake in Far Madden?  He comes into the room where Rand and Min were the night before, but he doesn't know he fails to kill them until after he sees the corpses.  I think it is more likely that he can see places in TAR, and maybe an after taste of events.  He can see something that has been there for a while, or its residue.  How would anyone guess that Rand and Min were changing lodging?  He was able to track them to that room based upon that they had stayed there long enough to leave a residue in TAR.<br /><br />He could easily have been informed of what the thieves were up to, that way he would know their location.  Also, maybe the theives were supposed to hand Slayer the seals, and he killed them for their failure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 14:43:05
subject: <b>Fact</b>
body:
Facts.  Facts.  Slayer has shown the ability to appear out of TAR at the right time and place.  Whether or not he's responsible for these killings is something else.  As far as I'm concerned it smells of Slayers handywork.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 15:51:08
subject: <b>Good theory but</b>
body:
its getting too easy to find an execution and point at Slayer. Everyone in Randland (bring it back, screw westlands! hehe) has a sword, knife, bow, etc. and thousands can use the One Power, not to mention fades, gray men, drakkar, forsaken, Mordeth, etc. Who killed JFK? <br />Slayer!!!!


created: 2003-12-22 06:34:29
subject: <b>move like a snake</b>
body:
I can think of one other of the Shadows assasins that fits Deira's description that hasn't been mentioned, A Gollem. I know that gollem prefer to tear victims apart but as an assassin given the time constraints a single stab wound is possible and there is more  than one gollem so it wouldn't have to be the one who is trailing matt. just a thought.


created: 2003-12-25 16:24:03
subject: <b>Only one problem...</b>
body:
The only problem I have with that theory is that even for Slayer, killing two men by stabbing them both in the back of the head would be almost impossible.  What I mean is that even if you did manage to get behind both of the people in Bashere's camp without being detected, it would take both incredibly sharp blades and strength or amazing speed to kill them in that manner, being stabbed through the spinal cord.  To do that it would seem obvious that you would need to have the body moving towards you or you hold it for that amount of penetration.  If he did, then he would have to be very quick to do that to both of the thieves without one of them raising an alarm.


created: 2003-12-26 09:48:40
subject: <b>agreed</b>
body:
I think slayer was the killer of the two thieves in Bashere&#180;s camp. <br />Even if he wasn&#180;t able ta appear exactly at the right place, he might have acted as a fellow df of higher rank towards the thieves and killed them when they turned their backs on them. He might be fast enough, remember, he is an experienced killer.<br />I&#180;m not so sure about Dobraine&#180;s attackers, though. Dobraine himself might have killed one, but not both. I wonder why Slayer should have changed his MO. However, I still fail to see an alternative to Slayer.<br />And to my fellow countryman Etzel: I usually have a browser window open showing http://dict.leo.org<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.<br />        (Terry Pratchett)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-26 10:32:09
subject: <b>Oh nice...</b>
body:
another German around here! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Actually I use LEO (and sometimes linguaDict). <br />But I was certain that &quot;litter&quot; means &quot;couch&quot; and thus didn't check it. *sigh*<br /><br />The good thing is that I will probably never forget the true meaning of litter now. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-26 11:43:27
subject: <b>pleading guilty...</b>
body:
... of stating the obvious.<br />Anybody with such an impressive list of posts is bound to know at least one source of linguistic information.<br />I hope my post will at least help someone else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.<br />        (Terry Pratchett)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 02:48:06
subject: <b>Hello? Grey Man?</b>
body:
There were no channelers nearby in either time, so no one felt them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-23 16:23:37
subject: <b>Definitly not Slayer</b>
body:
Slayer is busy at the time, hunting down Fain on Moridin's orders, and Rand and Min on some &quot;mystery employer&quot;'s.  It would be much simpler to send a Gray Man.  It seems obvious that the shadow would not use it's main assasin in a matter when a much easier solution would suffice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chuck chuck bo buck, banana fana fo fu-...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 21:21:48
subject: <b>Luc</b>
body:
If there's a theory on this, I'd like you to point me at it, but why did slayer need to bring the Luc half to the Two Rivers if he can just go anywhere through the dreamworld ?<br /><br />I believe that Slayer can only &quot; jump &quot; short distances ( like the blink spell in D&amp;D or the ability in WarCraft III )That would mean that, for example in the Far Madding execution, Luc would have to be, say, outside the building for him to jump inside and kill the couple. If this is true, it is inprobable that Slayer could have been present for both executions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 01:24:01
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
Bwahahahaah! What did you do to RJ to get this information? Did you torture him in your eviiiiiiiil basement?


created: 2003-12-19 03:10:15
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
if Demandred is Asmodean and Asmodean was killed, why is he alive? And WHO killed Asmodean?! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Other than that quite plausible, thumbs up!


created: 2003-12-23 11:28:35
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I like it I was always thinking something like that would happen, but I have to disagree cuz I support the lezbo theory I think the whole story is under light friends read the thing that says may be offensive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 14:00:54
subject: <b>In response to Etzel</b>
body:
You see, when Asmodeanandred walked into that room, what we don't know, is that a mirror was there and he saw himself in said mirror. Now, when he saw himself in the mirror he realized that he had disguised himself so well that even he didn't know what he looked like anymore. This upset him so much, that he cried out &quot;You? No!&quot;. This was just to emphasize that he really didn't know who he was at that time.  Then, when &quot;death took him&quot; or whatever that quote is, that is mearly refering to the death of his current disguise. So, Asmodean the disguise died, and Demandred just came out as Demandred, wove an inverted gateway and hopped away.<br /><br />I mean, do we ever see a body? If we do, it's a lie, if we don't, I'm right.<br /><br />I could probably make that into a theory if I wrote a little more coherently and flushed it out with some random crap....hmmm, excellent.


created: 2003-12-26 11:05:47
subject: <b>Dual personality is the answer!</b>
body:
Sounds fairly obviuos, but couldn't it be that Demandred and Asmo are the two halves of a split personality? They are really up each others noses, and finally the Demandred half kills the Asmo half, kind of like Edward Norton killing Brad Pitt in the movie Fight Club.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-03 21:47:05
subject: <b>I feel five pounds lighter!</b>
body:
You forgot one major element my humor laden friend.  Elayne used the Power in the midst of making Randlings.  The weaves she made were to protect herself from Rand's ultra-leathal sperm.  It's kinda like the main theory of why Superman would never lay down with Lois Lane.  It is the potential force which Rand keeps gaurded in his breeches that causes the DO to cower in the corner crying out in capital letters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inflation would be much easier to endure if we lived in a third world country that made trade with coffee beans.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Range <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Right Hand of the Blade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Duke of Boiling Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> Culinary Ruffian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 18:16:37
subject: <b>This explains Troop Aes Sedai!</b>
body:
Nobody REALLY now where all that sweet sweet life of the One Power comes from.  For that matter, niether do Girl Scouts know whe Girl Scout Cookies come from.  They just go door to door filling out their form, hand it in to their Troop Leader, and a while later a shiny big shipment of cookies arrives.  Hense, Aes Sedai call Tar Valon home because that's where all the delicious cookies are!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inflation would be much easier to endure if we lived in a third world country that made trade with coffee beans.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Range <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Right Hand of the Blade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Duke of Boiling Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> Culinary Ruffian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-22 15:00:40
subject: <b>it made SO much sense</b>
body:
bravo i never thought i'd live to see the day someone (besides RJ) get it all right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Wow, this trunk holds a tuba, garbage bag, a suitcase and a dead dog almost perfectly.&quot;<br />&quot;Yea thats what they used to say in the commercials.&quot;<br />-Wonderboys</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 00:41:35
subject: <b>here we go...</b>
body:
brilliant. absoulutly brilliant! but what about the childen?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 01:43:52
subject: <b>Briliant!</b>
body:
Brilient! youve made me throw up in anger and pain! I hope you dont plan on being president....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 17:59:48
subject: <b>im crying</b>
body:
tears of joy are rolling down my face...<br />...you see i'm really RJ's son and im just happy to see that someone finally understands us.<br />Thank you.


created: 2005-06-01 22:24:37
subject: <b>GREATNESS</b>
body:
I rekon this idea is the greatest to come up on the theory post so far... it all fits sooooooooo well...meh i rekon you could definitly ak RJ to skool on how to write stories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />as for MR &quot;im crying&quot;...what are you talking about... u have compleatly lost me...ur not RJs son<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MOO</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 00:44:32
subject: <b>Plausable</b>
body:
MMMMMMMMM.....Girl Scout Cookies<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 00:46:23
subject: <b>Wait a Second...</b>
body:
Why would anybody in their right mind want to destroy Girl Scout Cookies? Who cares how evil they are, they're good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 00:47:53
subject: <b>NVM</b>
body:
I just read what I wrote and remembered Rand=Crazy<br />srry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-23 13:16:05
subject: <b>It all makes sense now!</b>
body:
So that's why my parents always buy girl scout cookies from EVERY SINGLE ONE THAT COMES TO THE DOOR! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /> The deseptively cute girl scouts are actually Black Ajah sisters in disguise using Compulsion on them!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The world must be dealt with as it is, not as you wish it would be.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> are so better than wetlanders</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 02:44:29
subject: <b>Tar Valon im guessing</b>
body:
If he said &quot; if we have enuff tame witches&quot; then perhaps he might be heading towards Tar Valon. They mite even get there just in time to see the to sets of AS battle each other maybe. nice and easy pickings then !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 02:59:40
subject: <b>The conclusion is right</b>
body:
They head into Perrin's direction.<br />But you left out the reason. <br /><br />Valda says the WC leaders have to meet someone several hours of riding from the WC camp.<br /><br />This meeting is with someone powerful and this could bring down the WT.<br /><br />Looking at Valda's POV and the discussion it's quite clear that it can't be the Seanchan because they are the enemies and the reason why the WC won't march in several directions.<br /><br />Valda's wish for knowing how the Seanchan can tame the Aes Sedai is just a wish.<br />Why should the Seanchan give the WC damane or negotiate with the WC if they can easily destroy them?<br /><br />Certainly they also wouldn't meet with a &quot;Darkfriend&quot; like Perrin or the Prophet. Besides, that certainly Perrin has no interest in it after the Two Rivers. <br />Besides why should that bring down the WT?<br /><br />For these reasons I believe the WC meet with the Shaido. Surely the Aiel are savages in their view but powerful enough (we know that in the past the Aiel almost brought down the WT), and Valda says it &quot;had to be done&quot;. <br />Plus they have also something to control the Aes Sedai (the Oath Rod).   <br /><br />This way the WC can participate in the battle between Shaido &amp; Perrin. Several plot lines can run together and/or be solved, e.g. Perrin-WC (especially Byar, Dain Bornhald), Valda/Asunawa-Morgase/Balwer, Galda-Morgase and maybe Berelain-her man in white.<br /><br />All this could in the end lead to a fundamental change of the WC, maybe with Galad as their leader.


created: 2003-12-19 11:35:45
subject: <b>north it is</b>
body:
I agree that they are heading north.  The kind of funny thing to me is that Valda is an idiot.  Perhaps a few years before a man with 9,000 troops could make something, but not anymore.  There are some 50,000 Aiel not too far away.  They would eat his 9,000 up without thinking about it.  Of course the Seanchan are even larger as are some of Rand's armies.<br /><br />I could agree with Etzel that he will be meeting with the Shaido.  I will not discount the Seanchan, but it does seem unlikely since Perrin has the piece of paper to make the Seanchan help him, and Valda does not.  Valda will probably go with the old theory, better the enemy you know vs. the one you don't.   He is more familiar with the Aiel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 13:18:10
subject: <b>Question of Purpose</b>
body:
Well, I gave a couple of half-hearted ideas of where he might head because I'm not entirely sure.  Nothing that seemed possible to me at the time managed to also sound like a realistic option.  <br /><br />Given their location, and the closest &quot;story line&quot; they could meet up with, Perrin vs. Shaido would seem most likely.<br /><br />However, if you look at the post by Diomedes entitled &quot;Where the heck is Malden?&quot; you will see that a very good case is made for Malden to be in the north of Altara, on the road to Murandy.  <br /><br />That would be the only reason that I discounted the option of them heading towards Perrin and the Shaido.  I presently believe that they are in territories that Valda does not wish to traverse.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-19 19:35:03
subject: <b>There isn't any choice.</b>
body:
They'll head north because thats the only way they can head.  Ghealdan?  No Way!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 19:51:42
subject: <b>Well, duh.</b>
body:
Of course north, as it said in the theory.  The &quot;where&quot; I was uncertain about was not the geographic location, but where along the overall plot-line.  As in to which individual story line the Whitecloaks are moving towards...?<br /><br />What heading north will bring, is going to be another RAFO.


created: 2003-12-20 11:11:27
subject: <b>Make up your mind!</b>
body:
First you say Ghealdan, which is way out to lunch and now you say RAFO.  <br /><br />Which is it?  Stand behind your theory.<br /><br />Ghealdan,  you must have been joking, right? <br /><br />hahahahah  good joke.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-20 13:00:31
subject: <b>Hi Columbo</b>
body:
Alright, Columbo.  I'll stand behind my theory.<br /><br />If you read the last main section of the theory, you will see that the only conclusive statement that I came to in the last line was this:<br /><br />&quot;The only thing for sure that I can extricate from this is that he is headed due north.&quot;<br /><br />Before that, I had a sentence that followed the format: &quot;Perhaps....Ghealdan.&quot;  Subsequently, I rendered plausible explanations for why they might go where.  I never conclusively stated where they would ultimately go, and neither did I conclusively say &quot;RAFO&quot; which is why I included it in my latest blackboard comment.<br /><br />As for the Ghealdan thing, I'll quote your first blackboard comment:<br />&quot;They'll head north because thats the only way they can head.&quot;<br />I fully agree with that statement.  <br /><br />In conjunction with that, I'll refer to the map of Randland.  If I am not mistaken, fleeing Amadicia and not heading towards Altara to the east nor Tarabon to the West (both believed to have been Seanchan infested territories), <i>Ghealdan is dead north.</i> <br /><br />Saying that north (which is where Ghealdan is) is the only way to go, and at the same time saying that Ghealdan is &quot;way out to lunch&quot; is a manifest contradiction of yours in your two posts and something that I cannot understand.  <br /><br />Take care!<br />


created: 2003-12-20 14:21:17
subject: <b>Two things first</b>
body:
1. Thanks for taking taking the time to post a theory.<br />2. Nice to see you try and stand behind it.<br /><br />Okay, North is obvious, that we can agree on.  Ghealdan is north as well, we can agree on that also.  Ghealdan IS NOT where Valda is taking the Whitecloaks as you suggested in your theory.  Lack of Motive and time not to mention facts left out the Etzel introduced.<br /><br />Ghealdan is a long way north and Valda has no reason to go there.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-21 11:35:51
subject: <b>Columbo: hopefully last thing i'll say =)</b>
body:
Thanks for challenging this, as this is the first theory I've posted and I now know that I was unclear in a couple of places.<br /><br />I'm actually in agreement with you on all counts.  All I am saying is that in the theory all I intended to show was that they would be going north, contradicting other theories that have him going to Andor and such places.<br /><br />I merely threw out the idea of Ghealdan and other things <i>because they were north</i> and not because I actually believed them to be the case.  If I could sum up the entirety in one line, it would be the last line of the theory which shows beyond doubt that I did not intend to demonstrate that he was going anywhere in particular (whether it be Ghealdan or the Two Rivers or up to the Blight)...<br /><br />&quot;The only thing for sure that I can extricate from this is that he is headed due north.&quot;<br /><br />So north it is, and thats all I've been trying to say.<br /><br />Adios!


created: 2003-12-22 18:24:14
subject: <b>Ghealden</b>
body:
2 reasons:<br /><br />Ghealden now has a power vacuum. No Prophet, no army, no queen.<br /><br />Perrin is odds-on to become a King. What better way than lifting a Whitecloak Seige of Jehannah. Friend of the DR, allied to the Seanchan (sort of) who better than Perrin to lead Ghealden out of the misery?<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-23 12:28:41
subject: <b>The puzzle that won't be solved....</b>
body:
Through theory harshing.<br /><br />Since Faile, Morgase and the Queen of Ghealdan were taken by the Shaido, I have seen that there will be a confluence of a wider variety of groups than ever before gathered in one place, and soon.<br /><br />Perrin currently has among his crowd the Ghealdanen army, a large contingent of Mayener military following their First, Masema and his unwashed horde, a small group of Aiel Wise Ones, a clutch of Aes Sedai, (some Dragon Sworn), a couple hundred Two Rivers men, three Asha'man, a former Tinker, former Whitecloak Spymaster, an Andoran innkeeper, a queen's nursemaid, a rogue Gai'din/wolfbrother and a partridge in a pear tree.<br /><br />Perrin is currently trying to work out how to employ this gathering to extract the three lady prisoners from the Shaido. I believe that three more groups will become involved on Perrin's side before that happens.<br /><br />Gawyn and the Younglings are on the move South and West from Tar Valon.<br /><br />Galad, Valda and the remaining Whitecloaks are moving North from Amadicia.<br /><br />A Seanchan contingent is working its way across the land from West to East forcing oaths from the locals.<br /><br />I believe Gawyn will run into Perrin first. Lini will be able to tell Gawyn that his mother lives, Perrin can tell him Elayne lives, which will end his vendetta against Rand and ally him to Perrin. This is excellent for Gawyn, as it removes his internal struggle of wanting Rand dead while honoring Egwene's request to avoid fighting the DR.<br /><br />Then come the Whitecloaks. Balwer as liaison can forge a truce in Perrin's name. If Gawyn, Lini and the other Andoran's aren't enough to bring Galad around, Berelain will be.<br /><br />Strong evidenvce exists for some kind of working dialog between Masema and the Seanchan. Whether that and the Document in Perrin's possession are enough to gain their assistance I haven't a clue.<br /><br />At this point the Red Eagle will fly over the most diverse aggregation of people ever heard of in this Age.<br /><br />What comes after the Shaido are routed is another guess entirely. First of all, returning Morgase to Andor will end the seige there and put all of Andor behind Rand. Her gratitude to Perrin will result in the entire Two Rivers area, plus a bit more of Andor, being put under the flag of Manetheren, with Perrin as King. But that comes later.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 22:17:14
subject: <b>nice thoughts.</b>
body:
is gawyn successfully heading south and west, or just trying?  i thought i recalled that he wanted to move that way, but the salidar tower army was posing a problem.<br /><br />interesting thoughts nevertheless.<br /><br />


created: 2004-01-05 13:03:12
subject: <b>Gawyn and Galad</b>
body:
What I noticed most about Valda's POV when I read it is that he <i>thinks</i> of Galad, but never comes out and confirms that Galad is actually <i>with</i> his group.  We can tie that in with the Shaido's repeatedly-escaping Whitecloak, or leave it out, but I don't think Galad is in Valda's contingent.<br /><br />As for Gawyn, isn't it more likely that he's going to stay in the general area of Tar Valon for a bit?  One more book of him and Eggy unknowingly being ten miles away from each other might just kill me.


created: 2004-01-09 17:41:04
subject: <b>Morgase to Andor doesn't resolve Elayne's problem</b>
body:
This is somewhat off-topic but I felt the need to respond to a claim that returning Morgase to Andor would end the siege and put all of Andor squarely behind Rand.<br /><br />While returning Morgase to Andor would prove that Rand didn't kill her off to install a puppet it wouldn't resolve the brewing trouble regarding the Lion Throne. This is because Morgase abdicated the throne while she was a 'guest' of Pedron Niall's in the Fortress of Light. Elayne is facing opposition to the throne because of how Rahvin controlled her mother and turned the nobility against one another. Just because Morgase returns will not guarantee that the other Houses that supported House Trakand will support Elayne. While it would make it more likely once Morgase returns, in the end Elayne must 'win' the throne back herself, with Lady Dyelin's help. It may help Rand because some of the nobles won't think he is a murderer anymore, but it won't help that much. Once Elayne unites Andor you can be assurred it will march into battle with the Dragon's forces.<br /><br />


created: 2004-08-06 18:47:33
subject: <b>Gawyn in Perrin's Shaido battle ?</b>
body:
Pfsht. It'll take him months to get there. ( Large army, difficult terrain, and erm... distance ? ) It's nearly double the distance covered ( by walking ) in the Eye of the World. He'd never get there in time.<br /><br />Besides, He hasn't been left to suffer his moral crossroads nearly long enough. Rand was wondering wether Elayne hated her ever since the beginning of The Shadow Rising, and was only satisfied after Winter's Heart - And that for a minor question.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-07 19:22:28
subject: <b>Valda, WTFPWND</b>
body:
As we see in the prologue of KoD Valda has sworn fealty to the Senchan, and by bringing 9000 exelent quality troops gained a very good position (Estate, prob a lesser Blood title, etc). Then Galad learns of Valda's rape of his step-mother, (whom he loves so much that he calls her Mother, and thinking nothing will be rigth again without her). He's so enraged that normaly totaly Order minded Galad strikes out on a revenge trip. <br /><br />Galad offs Valda and due to CoL law hes now the new Lord Captain Commander, and states that he will bring the CoL to TG, and contrary to their very nature has his men agreeing to side with channelers. Also afther the Malden battle we hear that they are now very close to Perrin's company, and Perrin just migth pause to confront the CoL.<br /><br />If this turns out the way I think Galad migth wind up swearing to Perrin, thus like Queen Aliandre declaring for Rand by proxy.<br /><br />On a side note we see that Dain is severly troubled by certain revelations, and has perhaps seen enough to understand that Perrin is innocent in his fathers death. He actually says something along the lines that if you have done wrong in service to the Ligth you have to atone for it.


created: 2003-12-19 07:38:58
subject: <b>Yeah, nothing new...</b>
body:
You should e.g. read my theory &quot;Egwene's flying rescue&quot;.<br /><br />The Seanchan will first attack the Rebels and later, with the help of the many new damane, the WT. <br /><br />This is also supported by a Min viewing of the Rebel Aes Sedai Carlinya: &quot;A raven floating beside her dark hair; more of a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo...&quot; <br />That indicates that Carlinya will become damane and property of the Empress.


created: 2003-12-19 08:29:57
subject: <b>Big problem...</b>
body:
The dream involved the captured people wearing great serpent rings calling lightning against the WT.  It CANNOT be any AS who has sworn on the Oath Rod.  That was proven earlier by Suroth and one of the captured AS (Ryma?  Couldn't lie about what color something was).  Since they are wearing the rings, that leaves one group in the rebel camp:  The Accepted (and Faolain and Theodrin).  That's a grand total of 25 people.  Most of the novices are nowhere near developed enough to be used as weapons, and they do not have the ring.<br /><br />Now granted the AS in the rebel camps would be made damane, but they wouldn't be able to attack the WT (probably ever since they can only use the OP to protect themselves, warders, and their Sisters, and the tower is full of warders and sisters).<br /><br />Etzel:<br /><br />We've never seen a damane marked with the Ravens.  As has been pointed out to me, the Seanchan see damane as pets, not even slaves.  Why would Carlinya receive the Ravens as damane?  We know that da'covale, DWG, and Seekers are marked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 09:47:03
subject: <b>Not exactly new thoughts, but it is right</b>
body:
I've seen this theory alot over the last 11 months (jeez.. it feels like I read COT 10 years ago).  <br /><br />You put it together with the references it needs though, and laid it out.  It seems like the Salidar AS are in trouble.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 09:48:35
subject: <b>To Fyatuk</b>
body:
In any case the dream shows that the Seanchan will capture her, and then she surely will be used as a damane (at least if she doesn't burn out or something).<br />Together with the other dreams, it's clear that the Seanchan will attack the Rebels first (and this just makes sense).<br /><br />Why Carlinya becomes in addition property of the Empress as the dream indicates is another question. <br />Maybe there will be a connection to Tuon. We don't know if e.g. Tuon's damane have the tattoo. I imagine they have.<br /><br />Besides, actually you said in &quot;The Cupbearer General&quot; that the dream with Mat and the ravens means a tattoo and thus Mat will become da'covale. <br />Why not the same in Carlinya's case, where, in contrary to the dream of Mat, a tattoo is even mentioned in the dream? <br /><br /><br />I'm also not such certain if Aes Sedai can't use the OP as damane. <br />RJ apparently said something different but he sometimes changed his mind. <br /><br />Plus, we have nothing in the books which says something else (e.g. swearing Seanchan because the Aes Sedai damane don't work as anticipated) but even a dream which indicate that they can.  <br /><br />You could construe that a damane who doesn't obey is in permanent danger of life because the sul'dam could kill her.<br />Since Aes Sedai can use the OP to defend their lives they wouldn't violate the oath.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-19 10:06:21
subject: <b>Etzel:</b>
body:
<i> it's clear that the Seanchan will attack the Rebels first (and this just makes sense).</i><br /><br />I agree that's the most sensible course of action.  Capture the ones that can more easily escape first.<br /><br /><i>Why Carlinya becomes in addition property of the Empress as the dream indicates is another question. <br />Maybe there will be a connection to Tuon. We don't know if e.g. Tuon's damane have the tattoo. I imagine they have.</i><br /><br />I'm honestly not sure they would.  At least not a tattoo.  The Raven is a sign of heriditary property of the impress.  Not just the wearer is property, but their entire family line.  It wouldn't surpise me if the Empress's damane are branded or something like that, but I don't think they are tattooed with the Raven.<br /><br /><i>the ravens means a tattoo and thus Mat will become da'covale. </i><br /><br />Not arguing the Ravens mean property (obviously they do), but I don't think damane are tattooed with them.  Carlinya might possible be stilled somehow and that could solve that issue...  Of course since we really don't know if damane would be tattooed I shouldn't argue with it, since either way its based on assumptions of Seanchan culture we can't prove.<br /><br /><i>I'm also not such certain if Aes Sedai can't use the OP as damane</i><br /><br />RJ has said that the oaths present a problem and that we haven't seen any AS damane used in battle.  The oaths do indeed limit what an AS can do even as damane.<br /><br /><i>Since Aes Sedai can use the OP to defend their lives they wouldn't violate the oath</i><br /><br />depends on the AS.  You can probably use that tactic to make them use the OP as a weapon on anyone BUT other AS/warders.  Otherwise the oath conflicts with itself (at least morally speaking) and most AS would probably consider that breaking it (using the OP as a weapon against other AS).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 11:13:53
subject: <b>For starters</b>
body:
It makes sense for the Seanchan to attack the Rebels first.<br /><br />However, the Rebels have no plan to attack the WT. It is their intent to blockade the WT, in order to force surrender. With Egwene`s capture, plans may change. <br /><br />But with the supposed threat of the &quot;Forsaken`s powerful new weapon&quot;, the negotiations with the 2 Halls may go forward in a positive manner.<br /><br />IMO, the only way sworn AS can attack the WT, is for the native Seanchan Damane to attack the WT first, and then have the newly collared AS defend themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 11:54:27
subject: <b>Logistics</b>
body:
Major weakness in this theory is that without ability to Travel there is no way Seanchans can move task force heavy enough to carry that kind of operation. For instance a to'raken can carry only 5 soldiers (assuming that 1 soldier+armor+weapons weight 200 pounds). So they would need 6000 to'rakens to carry 30000 soldiers and I don't think they had so many available. That number of soldiers would be minimum they would need bc those beasts cannot carry horses and forces loyal to Egwene have heavy cavalry units which would wipe out any smaller force as long as they are protected from damane by AS and tower AS stay neutral. Naturally S could sent only damane, but without protection by soldiers those damane would be wiped out by archers. After all we found out in Falme that 50 CoL could kill single damane with arrows. So that option is also out.<br /><br />Land route is out, bc Victorious army would have to march through Andor and just now between them and WT is about 200000 borderlanders.


created: 2003-12-19 16:22:26
subject: <b>Doubtful</b>
body:
I think the vision of Aes sedai channeling at the white tower is symbolic.  After all, there are a couple of Aes Sedai already captured by the Seanchan.  Even if they do attack the Salidar AS, there is no way Jordan would have them actually destroy Tar Valon and The White Tower...or is there...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mind is in constant need of stimulation.  If boredom was an olmypic sport, I'd have been dq'd for steroids.<br />Yarr...I am...not attractive - The Sea Captain<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />If wishes were wings, pigs would fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 21:35:29
subject: <b>I think it was a nightmare, or symbolic</b>
body:
Because of the oath thing.  Lets pretend they don't have oaths though.  Do you really think the Seanchan would have time to break the Aes Sedai spirit enough (with the Last Battle looming) to be able to convince them to attack it?  Damane don't HAVE to do what the sul'dam tell them.  They're tortured and break first.  So even if they didn't have oaths I don't think it would happen unless the Seanchan had a month or 2 to work on them.<br /><br /><br />As for the attack.. there are ways they can do it with smaller numbers.  The easiest would be to attack the tower, though.  (If this sounds familiar it's because it's been posted before).  Elaida is the only person who uses the upper floors and people only go up there when she summons them.  The raken could land on top of the tower at night and people probably would never notice them.  Then they could snatch people one by one as they moved down floor by floor.  The army of 50,000 couldn't do much good then.<br /><br />Also, raken carry more than 5.  They can carry 10 or more Fists of Heaven plus the pilot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 23:46:08
subject: <b>Good, but I'm not sure.</b>
body:
The theory is well laid out, and as much as I would like to agree to it, I am hard pressed to try to get myself to decide either way.  Of the reasons that have not already been laid out...<br /><br />(1) Travelling - One would think that the impending defeat of the Salidar Aes Sedai would lead to some sort of retreat.  They can retreat anywhere, since they have the ability to Travel, which the Seanchan lack.  Even if a significant number were captured, I believe enough of the Salidar Aes Sedai and their army could escape to still pose a significant threat.<br /><br />(2)  Self Defense - As Etzel pointed out earlier and as is noted in the books, Aes Sedai can defend their lives with the One Power.  The Seanchan, in attacking the Salidar Aes Sedai would not have such a walk in the park dealing with 300 trained Aes Sedai that use the One Power as a weapon in their own defense.  <br /><br />(3)  The Little Tower - We hear the Salidar Aes Sedai referred to as the Little Tower - a diminutive version of the White Tower.  They are the White Tower in exile, essentially, and view themselves as the true inheritors of the White Tower (IRL: think PRC and Taiwan).  Dreams being largely symbolic (and this last point is purely to play the devil's advocate) could it not also make sense according to Egwene's dream for them to somehow conquer the standing White Tower, collar them, and attack the &quot;real&quot; / &quot;Little&quot;  White Tower?<br /><br />That's it for now.


created: 2003-12-20 12:51:15
subject: <b>To WindbitersFinger</b>
body:
<b> (1) Travelling - One would think that the impending defeat of the Salidar Aes Sedai would lead to some sort of retreat. They can retreat anywhere, since they have the ability to Travel, which the Seanchan lack. Even if a significant number were captured, I believe enough of the Salidar Aes Sedai and their army could escape to still pose a significant threat. </b><br /><br />The Rebels would be surprised.<br /><br />Besides, as we saw at the Seanchan attack on the farm in PoD, if they Travel the risk remains that the Seanchan learn the weave, and that is something what certainly no Aes Sedai wants (Elayne had to unravel the gateway in PoD to prevent that).  <br /><br /><b> (2) Self Defense - As Etzel pointed out earlier and as is noted in the books, Aes Sedai can defend their lives with the One Power. The Seanchan, in attacking the Salidar Aes Sedai would not have such a walk in the park dealing with 300 trained Aes Sedai that use the One Power as a weapon in their own defense. </b><br /><br />Maybe the Seanchan have even more damane with them.<br /><br />And I think we can assume that a special trained damane is more effective in a battle than an Aes Sedai. <br /><br /><b> (3) The Little Tower - We hear the Salidar Aes Sedai referred to as the Little Tower - a diminutive version of the White Tower. They are the White Tower in exile, essentially, and view themselves as the true inheritors of the White Tower (IRL: think PRC and Taiwan). Dreams being largely symbolic (and this last point is purely to play the devil's advocate) could it not also make sense according to Egwene's dream for them to somehow conquer the standing White Tower, collar them, and attack the &quot;real&quot; / &quot;Little&quot; White Tower? </b><br /><br />I doubt it because an attack on the Rebels seems easier.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-21 17:46:15
subject: <b>Should I be at least defending some stuff in my own theory? LOL</b>
body:
I gues essentially, some of the concerns raised point me in the direction of some of the more bizarre kinds of things.  As stated, the oaths present a problem for the Aes Sedai in that they cannot attack other Aes Sedai except in defence of their own lives.  I do remember the point about the Seanchan learning that almost killing the freshly capture Damane Aes Sedai.  There was also something mentioned about the logistics of the attack.  Firstly, I don't think either travelling OR Raken are necessary.  Tar Valon is indeed an Island, but there are bridges to the island.  I also see the problem that only a few could cross the bridges at any one time, but do the damane even need to cross the bridge, could they not just attack from the shore and clear the path for soldiers and death watch guards flooding all the bridges preventing any chance of escape.  Although one thing that hasn't been discussed is that the damane know how to shield another channeller.  Might their attack not be about shielding all the Aes Sedai so that the Seanchan could collar them?  It's a distinct possibility.  <br /><br />There are a few other things, but I don't feel like addressing them this early in the morning.  Besides, it's Summer in Australia and it's quite hot at the moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 00:54:36
subject: <b>Interesting, but I don't think so.</b>
body:
A good theory with nice tidbits, but I am swayed by 2 facts.<br />1) Logistics - no way for the Seanchan (at least as things stand now) to get a force of any size that close without notice.<br /><br />2) Three Oaths. Damane AS couldn't attack - that would leave Accepted (only 25 or so), or possibly captured Black Ajah (more likely) as the one's who attack Tar Valon. I think it will happen after Egwene takes control of the Tower. Gawyn will be the one that frees her, per Min's Viewings.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-23 08:02:03
subject: <b>There will be no fight</b>
body:
<br />Aes Sedai cannot fight Aes Sedai NORMALLY.<br />But if they are COLLARED then they can fight.<br /><br />What if the Seanchan and the Rebels strike a deal?<br />They get collared for the fight and then are set free.<br />I am sure with Siuan and Leane as part of the rebels this is a definite possiblity.<br /><br />It would be a cleaner quicker fight than a long drawn out battle.<br /><br />Maybe it is just the ones who have sworn allegence to Egwene that get cllared.<br /><br />Somehow a battle between the rebels and Seanchan doesn't sound right to me.<br />Cause then we have atleast 2 battles in book 11.<br />The Seanchan and the rebels then the lot with the white tower.<br /><br />Besides do you think that the white tower would just stand by and let the rebels get attacked now that they have Egwene?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 15:08:35
subject: <b>nah</b>
body:
We did this on the board already..  but, the collars do NOT take away the three oaths effect.  Aes Sedai wouldn't be any more able to fight in collars than they were without them.<br /><br />Not that they would agree to being collared in a million years anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 19:47:08
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
i'm voting no. no way in hell the seanchan have enough to attack a friggin camp of Aes Sedai with. the Salidar troop has more than even the white tower, not to mention they have the most powerful in the world there (ex: Sharina).<br />this theory is absolutely ridiculous. also, to think the seanchan planned to get egwene is absurd. they had no way to know what the salidar sedai were planning, and they had no way to know egwene would be there. her involvement was a last minute decision.


created: 2003-12-23 22:23:51
subject: <b>shadow killer</b>
body:
just a note on your point about a possible proposal by the seanchan to collar the rebels for the fight, and then release them afterwards.<br /><br />this wouldn't work for several reasons.  the rebels are trying to retake the tower, and do not with for seanchan supremacy so they would not agree to that.  nor would egwene ever agree to having aes sedai collared by seanchan.<br /><br />also, if you recall the seanchan viewpoint on freeing damane, you will notice that they revile it to a point where they equate it with some disgusting crime such as pedophilia or something.<br /><br />just pointing out that i think that idea is highly unlikely to develop.


created: 2003-12-26 00:16:28
subject: <b>Break The Spirit?</b>
body:
I was under the impression that with the collar, a Damane is under complete control of the Sul'dame (right spelling?)<br />And that the breaking-the-will thing is just because the Seanchan are sadistic bastards.<br />Because if the Damane could channel on her own, why did Moggy have such a problem showing Nayneve and Elayne all the AOL weaves?<br />I think in LoC they lament about how hard it is because Moggy can't direct the weaves.


created: 2003-12-26 01:46:39
subject: <b>Other way around</b>
body:
You mean sul'dam control damane.  I don't think they are in complete control though.  It's true the damane can't channel when they want (well, they can until they get too nauseous).  But they can refuse to channel.  The sul'dam can't actually make the damane do anything just by willing them to.  They have to &quot;convince&quot; them to do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-26 08:35:10
subject: <b>RE: Dreams against good aes sedai</b>
body:
i've read the theory and the counter arguments.  one thing people automatically seem to be assuming is that the woman with great serpent rings attacking the white tower are aessedai.  I don't believe this is the case.  <br /><br />In the first case there is the problem with using the power as a weapon except in self defense.  I believe jordan said the Aessedai can be used as weapons because it is the suldam in total control of the power.  But more important then this, i don't believe the seachan have the capability to attack 300 Aessedai with 1000 novices and 50000 soldiers much less capture them since the Aessedai can travel.<br /><br />I believe the ring refers to the kin.  After all the kin are former members of the white tower and many received their accepted ring.  Capturing the kin would be relatively easy.  They can't travel, they are split up, and probably have very little knowledge of the seachan or using the power as a weapon.<br /><br />many of the kin are powerful and the also greatly outnumber the AS.  you combine much of the kin, with other wilders, plus their own damane and you have a force capable of mounting a serious attack on tar valon


created: 2003-12-26 09:04:43
subject: <b>A few notes of my own...</b>
body:
<b>GreenHatSteve</b><br /><br /><i>a Damane is under complete control of the Sul'dame</i><br /><br />This is guaranteed to not be the case.  The Sul'dam do not know how to channel or direct weaves so they cannot be handling the weaves.  The damane does handle the weaves.  That is why the damane's will is broken.  The sul'dam can neither direct the weaves or (in most cases) tell exactly what the damane is doing.  The sul'dam herself is safe because of the effects of the a'dam, but the damane could nuke an entire legion of the Army, so the will must be broken so that does not happen.<br /><br /><i>I think in LoC they lament about how hard it is because Moggy can't direct the weaves</i><br /><br />Would you trust a forsaken to make her own weaves?  Moghedien is supposed to be teaching the girls weaves they've never seen before, so what if she said she was going to show them the &quot;detect a man's channeling&quot; weave (which of course Moggy wasn't) and instead forms some destructive weave to blow Salidar apart?  The girls were just being smart and not allowing Moggy to control the flows.<br /><br /><b>first punic war</b><br /><br /><i>woman with great serpent rings attacking the white tower are aessedai</i><br /><br />I don't.  I think it refers to accepted and Faolain and Theodrin, all of whom wear the ring but have not taken the oaths and who do not have the loyalty to the tower that most AS have.<br /><br /><i>I believe the ring refers to the kin. After all the kin are former members of the white tower and many received their accepted ring.</i><br /><br />Not likely.  And not quite right.  The Kin are composed of former Novices, Accepted, and a few wilders.  Mostly novices.  Very few Accepted ran away and weren't hauled back, so most accepted in the kin were probably kicked out of the tower.  Most were probably novices though.<br /><br />Second, the Kin are in Caemlyn.  They may be the second mysterious map, but what we know for sure is they are planning an attack on TV, which is why people are discussing whether its the WT or Rebel camp.  Most likely the attack is planned for the WT because I'm not sure the Seanchan even knows the rebel army is there (well they do now because of what Egwene saw).<br /><br />If the Seanchan attack Caemlyn, they will have to deal with the combined armies of Andor (both sides of the Succession), the Kin, the Aiel (with WO who have already broken the no fighting custom), Bashere's cavalry, Legion of the Dragon, and the Black Tower.  That's what 500,000  troops (mostly Aiel) or so and well over 1,000 (600 IIRC BT, a few hundred WO, at least 50 AS, and a couple hundred Kin, plus miscellaenous Windfinders), most of whom know how to use the OP as a weapon.  Now THAT is a terrifying force....  That's not even taking into account the Borderlander armies that are approaching...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-26 18:26:54
subject: <b>Ignore the stupid part</b>
body:
of my post.  about it being the other way around.  I read you wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br />Question: How is it possible for Aes Sedai who have taken the Three Oaths to become damane and use the One Power as a weapon? <br /><br />RJ: They can't us the One Power as a weapon, not in any conventional sense. This presents some problems for the Seanchan, but then, damane are used for more than just weapons. And from the Seanchan point of view, at worst, an Aes Sedai who has been collared is one less marath'damane running around loose and doing the horrible things that their history tells them such women inevitably do. Remember, Seanchan history records a time under Aes Sedai rule, when no one could go to sleep at night with the certainty they would wake in the morning and Aes Sedai took whatever they wanted and killed anyone who crossed or opposed them. To the Seanchan, just removing these horrors from the board is a win.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-29 07:40:18
subject: <b>Does no-one want to comment on the point about Shielding the Aes Sedai?</b>
body:
Well....???<br /><br />The Seanchan wouldn't want a whole cache of marath'damane to be obliterated without thought of capture.  Could not the Salidar Aes Sedai whom the Seanchan capture not be made to shield any Aes Sedai they encounter?  After all, they're not using the power as a weapon since they are not strictly attempting to injure their &quot;sisters&quot; in the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-29 08:22:31
subject: <b>I will!</b>
body:
That still goes against the AS ideal of the WT before anything else.  The captured AS would still need to go through the period of having their wills broken which is a couple weeks to a couple months.<br /><br />Not likely to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 17:01:17
subject: <b>Raid?</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />Attacking the WT doesn't necessarily mean the Seanchan have to capture and hold the city, or all of the city. What if the attack on the WT is really a raid to capture Elaida, the reigning Amyrlin Seat?<br /><br />I can't believe the Seanchan can move enough forces into striking range to catch Gareth Bryene and the army surrounding the Salidar AS by surprise- or at least enough by surprise to actually defeat them. Bryene's army is considerable in size, Gareth himself is one of the great Captains, and they are supported by the more skilled and larger group of AS. The Salidar AS have grown in the months since the WT split, while those in the WT and further divided and weakened themselves. <br /><br />Someone earlier mentioned an airborn assault on the Tower itself, not the city. That could be possible, especially since the Seanchan think the AS have a new secret weapon (from when the Traveling weave was unraveled and blew up with enormous force devastating the pursuing forces). How better to find out about the new devastating weapon than to capture the Amrylin Seat herself. Also, wouldn't this kind of action force the Salidar AS to aid the AS who survive a Seanchan assault/raid? Could this be a catalyst to free Egwene in the confusion, letting her resume her role as the Amrylin?<br /><br />Someone earlier mentioned the Salidar AS might be willing to be collared long enough to fight a battle against the WT. I can't believe they would be stupid enough to do such a thing. There is no way a group of Aes Sedai would allow themselves to be collared so they could attack another group of Aes Sedai, they wouldn't be fool enough to run the risk that the Seanchan wouldn't release them from the collars afterwards. If they're that trusting I'd like to sell them some stock....<br /><br />Anyhow, this was an interesting read but I don't think the Seanchan are going to be attacking the Salidar AS and then moving into and capturing the whole city of Tar Valon. Such an occurrence would destroy the AS powerbase completely. I could see a raid which causes death and destruction, but not an outright succesful invasion.<br /><br />


created: 2004-01-13 15:25:01
subject: <b>The &quot;Rand&quot; Factor</b>
body:
One point that I would to add - what if the Seanchan successfully capture Rand and force him to channel for them with that male A'dam? Rand could easily open a gate big enough to allow enough Seanchan through to fight it out with the tower. This would quickly move them past all the armies in their way and take everyone by surprise.


created: 2004-07-02 15:08:27
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
This is so wrong for reason others have stated, but on top of that to fit in with the whole thing with Gawyn.  I can't remember excatly if it was WH or CoT, but an AS came to him to request that the younglings do something for the Eladia and he was reluctant to even listen after being kept out of the WT.  It was at the end of the chapter and we never heard the request, so Gawyn might find himself in a situation where like Perrin and rand if he is not there Egwene will die.  Just like Min saw one decision led to ruin and the other lead to him and Egwene making babies.  This is definatley the moment when he will be the key that opnes the door to Egwene's freedom.<br /><br />As far as the Seachan striking at the WT what about Rand deal with the Seachan, sure Suroth can double cross him and maybe Rand uses the Seachan to attack the WT but I don't think so I think the Seachan will be led to ruin and bound to Rand via Matt and Tuon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 07:51:52
subject: <b>False, because...</b>
body:
In EotW, ch.23, Elyas (who knows it from the wolves) tells that the Wolfbrothers are an old thing: &quot;Older than Aes Sedai. Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as wolves.&quot; <br /><br />That must have been at the beginning of the 1st Age, the age before the AoL. <br />At the beginning of humankind no one could channel, later some people learned it due mutation.


created: 2003-12-19 08:35:05
subject: <b>not mutually exclusive / cyclical time...</b>
body:
Etzel:<br /><br />Depends on your count.  This is called the Third Age &quot;by some&quot;.  Doesn't mean its the actual third chronological age.  Really that would depend on how much RJ wanted to confuse us.  By our counting method, maybe the 6th age was actually the first one to happen.<br /><br />So the wolves could have been in the 6th or 7th and the theory could still be right about the 1st..<br /><br />OK, I'm done now, just trying to be annoying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 09:58:15
subject: <b>To Fyatuk</b>
body:
<b> Depends on your count. This is called the Third Age &quot;by some&quot;. Doesn't mean its the actual third chronological age. Really that would depend on how much RJ wanted to confuse us. By our counting method, maybe the 6th age was actually the first one to happen. </b><br /><br />Anyway, the/a 1st Age must be the Age where humankind was created, no matter how you call all other Ages.<br />Since the Wolfbrothers are something from the beginning of humankind it comes from the 1st Age.<br />Together with all the references to our real world from the Age before the AoL, it's clear that our real world shall be the First Age and thus the past of the WoT. <br /><br /><b> So the wolves could have been in the 6th or 7th and the theory could still be right about the 1st.. </b><br /><br />Nah, see above. <br />The theory says that in the Age before the AoL all people could channel and that can't be right.<br /><br /><b> OK, I'm done now, just trying to be annoying. </b><br /><br />Thank you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-19 11:56:44
subject: <b>To Etzel</b>
body:
Is there any guarantee that the wolves are right? The whole myth into legend which fades with the turning of thw wheel bit at the beginning of every book seems to me to imply that no-one remembers ages past, even wolves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mind what people do, not only what they say, for deeds will betray a lie.<br /><br />Trust the voice within.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-19 12:51:36
subject: <b>Time is a Wheel</b>
body:
Therefore the 1st Age always follows the 7th Age.  There is no reason not to believe that remnants of the 7th age carried over into the 1st Age, just as remnants of the AOL carried over into the current Age.<br /><br />My point: just because something predates the AOL, doesn't mean it can't go farter back that the 1st age.


created: 2003-12-19 13:32:05
subject: <b>It is in the same chapter, Illanos.</b>
body:
<b> Is there any guarantee that the wolves are right? The whole myth into legend which fades with the turning of thw wheel bit at the beginning of every book seems to me to imply that no-one remembers ages past, even wolves. </b><br /><br />&quot;Every wolf remembers the history of all wolves, or at least the shape of it.[... ]They remember running down prey side-by-side with men, but it was so long ago that it's more like the shadow of a shadow than a memory.&quot;<br /><br />I believe we can safely assume that the wolves are right and don't lie.<br /><br /><br />To Justa Boy<br /><br /><b> Therefore the 1st Age always follows the 7th Age. There is no reason not to believe that remnants of the 7th age carried over into the 1st Age, just as remnants of the AOL carried over into the current Age.<br /><br />My point: just because something predates the AOL, doesn't mean it can't go farter back that the 1st age. </b><br /><br /><br />Of course time is a wheel in the Wheel of Time; thus it must be that in every 1st Age humankind is created. <br />Otherwise humankind would always enhance, but that can't be because we have a cycle. <br /><br />In my view at the end of the 6th Age occurs a disastrous catastrophe (e.g. a comet hits the earth). <br />This leads to the death of every living being; the 7th Age is probably an Ice Age. <br />Then after many years the 1st Age begins, when life is spreading again (then comes the AoL, then Rand's Age, and then the 4th Age from which we already have some texts).<br />


created: 2003-12-22 13:35:15
subject: <b>Some biology</b>
body:
If the allele for non-channelers is dominant, then the child borne of a channeler with a non-channeler would ALWAYS be a non-channeler. This means that unless female Aes sedai are mating with male channelers to produce further channelers then your theory is fatally flawed. Channeling would have been bred out of the population a couple of hundred years ago. Sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-12-22 22:37:21
subject: <b>Biology?</b>
body:
@ alex_11<br /><br />Suppose that $nonchanneler has one pro and one anti channeling allele(chromosome?).<br />Bred with $channeler(who would have both pro-channeling alleles) there would be a 1/4 chance of a channelling offspring.<br /><br />I apologize if I don't understand what you're saying.<br />My knowlege of genetic's is pretty hazy.


created: 2003-12-23 03:30:12
subject: <b>but...</b>
body:
Fyatuk said that the non channeling allele would be dominant. Therefore one dominant non channeling allele paired with one recessive channeling allele would produce a non channeler. i wont get too scientific cuz i know i sound a nerd. Just take my word for it!


created: 2003-12-23 14:08:37
subject: <b>Genes</b>
body:
Its really quite simple.  Everybody has two genes for every trait--one from mom, one from dad.  Using channeling as the example, hypothetically you can have one recessive gene(say from your Aes Sedai mother) and the dominant from your father.  You wouldn't channel.  But suppose you get married, and your spouse also has a dominant/recessive gene for channeling.  Your child would have a 1/4 chance of being able to channel.  If you had a child with a person with 2 dominant genes, your child would not be able to channel, and if you had a child with another channeler, your child would be able you channel also.<br /><br />If you didn't understand any of that, a biology textbook could explain it better.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Queen of Exaggeration, Lady of Confusion, and the <br />     Favored Apprentice to the Dark Librarian<br /><br />&quot;I've made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />.&quot;<br /><br />For me, 'confused' describes a good day.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-23 17:08:50
subject: <b>Alex_11</b>
body:
Heh, I mentioned that on the MB i think a while ago.  Don't remember too much.<br /><br />Just to be a little bit of a pain...  There are 3 states of channeling: non, train, spark.  That implies that even if there are only 2 alleles/genes/whatever (not a geneticist or biologist) than the 3 states have to match up. Assuming 2 genes (call them &quot;N&quot; for non and &quot;C&quot; for channel) that leads to NN = non-channeler, NC or CN = can be trained to some degree, and CC = Sparker.  (2 trainable people would produce 25% non, 50% trainable, 25% sparker).<br /><br />Also even it is split just between non and channeler there would still be non-channelers carrying the channeling gene.  It would be completely random as to whether it was bred out or not.  heck, we still haven't bred out 6 fingers, or tails.  They are exceedingly rare (and 6 fingers is actually a dominant trait), but still exist.<br /><br />More than likely it would be much more complicated than just the 2 genes (like eye color is 6 or 8 IIRC) which makes figuring out the percentages more complicated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-24 04:00:01
subject: <b>U win</b>
body:
i admit defeat in the face of your reasoning!!<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-13 22:48:07
subject: <b>Agree with Fyatuk</b>
body:
Your gene theory is very good and the 25%-50%-25% part also matches well with the fact that there are always more Sul'dam than damane.


created: 2004-01-15 05:54:35
subject: <b>More gentics</b>
body:
If the recessive channeling gene theory is true you can resolve how many of the people in the world carry the channel allel by using Hardy weinberg proportions...=)<br /><br />Since a certain number of people are channelers, aes sedai + ashaman + the knitting circle + damane. You should be able to figure out a pretty close number lets say 10 000 maybe its high but what the hell, then 10000 people are homozygots for the c(channel) according to HW the genotype frequenze is p2+2pg+q2 = 1 so lets estimate the total population in randland lets say 1 biljon so the number of channelers is 10000/1000000000 which makes it 0.00001 to get the q = 3.16 * 10^-3 this is q, since p = 1-q p equals 0.99684 and 2pq = 0.0063, now why is this interesting?<br />The formula tells us that 99,3% of the populus is normal without the channeling allel, ,63% are heterozygos carriers for the channeling allel and ,001% are full fletch channelers and there you have. <br />If only RJ would confirm this=)=)<br />(yes i study genetics=))


created: 2004-04-26 17:41:08
subject: <b>If you're going to use genetics anyway..</b>
body:
I fail to see how a non-channeling gene will spread to become the majority in a population, especially in the context that you put it, where channeling provides significant advantages (the crippled as compared to the strong). Genes conducive to survival are the ones that are passed down to the next generation, not the other way around. People do not 'devolve'. If channeling is indeed genetic, then I see the opposite is more likely: the channelers increase until everyone can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-01 14:20:15
subject: <b>The age before the Age of Legends is ours!</b>
body:
There is two major flaws in the theory:<br />1. The 'first age' is our age. Just think of the giants Mirk and Mosk with their fiery lances - and the Mercedes-Benz star in Tarabon. That is, we are living in that age right now. I can't channel. Maybe I'm just the first regrettable mutant, but I somehow doubt that.<br />2. The second flaw of the thoery ism that a major principle of evolution is not headed. Namely: The survival of the fittest. The mutant unable to channel should have some advantage to the channelers. (Such us, eg. more and  healthier children, restence agains major diseases or so on, better access to recources) In the Age of Legends Saidin was without the taint and channelers become feritle as early as not channelers and stay fertile for a few hundred years, (as compared to 30-40 years of a not-channeler). Female channelers don't need to fear misscarriage or so on (as the wise ones explain Elayne). Healing makes epidemics an unlikely selection factor. Of course a channeler also has all the advantages in case of a violent struggle for resources. Thus, people able to Channel would outcompeat the mutants and not the other way around.


created: 2005-02-17 17:56:01
subject: <b>i got a couple things;</b>
body:
good, but there wouldnt be any mutations, the wheel just turns. so i guess it COULD be called a mutation.<br /><br />id agree, and this would also make sense with how aes sedai means 'protecter of all' but, didnt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> say somewhere that the second age, aka age of legends, began when the first channeler channeled?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 04:06:08
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I tend to agree that the seals, as focal points placed on his prison, allowed the DO direct or indirect access to them.<br /><br />Plus the fact that we know the DO tainted saidin, tells us he can have some kind of affect against the One Power. It just took some time to break-down the cuendillar, IMO.<br /><br />I might not have used the word &quot;absorb&quot;. Maybe &quot;counter-act&quot; would be more descriptive. But it really doesn't matter either way, as the result is the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 09:48:45
subject: <b>What I think...</b>
body:
The seals were forged as focus points for the dark one's prison. I assume that they are ter'angreal. I also assume that they were made by men, since the women wouldn't support them. I think the seals break not beacuse of a power directed at it, but because of a corruption that twists whatever energy&#180;that makes cuendillar so strong. The seals would therefor have been weakened over the centuries and that's why they are breaking now. The cleansing of Saidin doesn't matter, since the seals are already too weak to hold. They still function though (well, the ones that still hold).<br /><br />That's what I think, at least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 11:43:31
subject: <b>Nice idea but...</b>
body:
You brought up a point in your theory that goes against it.<br /><br />You meantioned that in tEotW Lan broke his knife on a fraction of the broken Seal.  If the Seals weaken because the OP is pulled out of them, and that they break when empty, (which is supported in later books by being able to break a piece with hands) then it shouldn't have broken his knife.<br /><br />I personally always thought the seals weakened because Ishmael was active and about.  Obviously he could use the TP even though the DO was bound (EotW prologue) and the DO is implied to be the source of the TP (its more powerful the closer to the Bore you get, the DO grants the ability to use it, etc).  I think it was the TP squeezing through the Seals that broke them.<br /><br />But you know, its just my opinion and when RJ provides conflicting evidence as to how the Seals act after they are broken, it becomes difficult to figure anything out doesn't it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 15:28:28
subject: <b>topace</b>
body:
Robert Jordan's The wheel of Time (BWB) has the Seals were made before the women pulled out of the plan. They were made by men and women.<br /><br />Fyatuk<br /><br />There are inconsistencies in many aspects of RJ's worlds.  eg Lanfear claimed she was denied dreams while sealed in the Bore, other Forsaken say they had endless nightmares. <br /><br />I think the improtant bit is that when the Seal is abut to break there is the feel of the Dark One and <b>at no other time.</b> This theory explains that. I haven't seen another one that does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 16:58:47
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I don't know. I think the question is, why were the seals scattered? If they were afraid that the insane male channelers would find the seals, then there was apparently some way to break them that men could perform. I think that if you find out what that is then you can figure out why the seals are weakening.


created: 2003-12-30 17:09:33
subject: <b>Linda_sedai</b>
body:
I got the impression that it was a growing feeling.  The weaker the seals the greater the feeling.  Of course I haven't really gotten to the seals in my re-read so I could be way off...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 23:33:40
subject: <b>Absorbed?</b>
body:
From the very beginning of the series, Jordan has assured us that the One Power cannot be present in anything except something living, or more specifically, in a human.  Objects cannot possess or contain the One Power, or even use it: Moiraine scoffed at Egwene's naivete when she asked in TEOTW if M's staff &quot;used&quot; or &quot;had&quot; the OP. <br /><br />There could be nothing in the seals for the Dark One to &quot;absorb&quot;; I had always thought it clear that cuendillar's invincibility was simply a matter of physics, or chemistry.  The Aes Sedai used the One Power to alter its atomic makeup, or some such thing. We do know that objects can be used as foci for the Power, however, as RJ states it very blatantly.  But as for the seals actually containing the Power, the rules Jordan has set up prevent it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;~~ http://bostonconfidential.org ~~&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-31 04:56:19
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
In my view there must be a way to make cuendillar breakable (at least after the TV harbor chain is turned now). <br />Also RJ has indicated in a interview that there is such a way.<br /><br />I like the idea that the DO withdraws somehow in a gradual process OP residues in the Seals which made them unbreakable. <br />But I doubt that only the DO is able to do that but rather think that also a channeler can learn it.<br /><br />Good theory.<br />


created: 2003-12-31 09:48:37
subject: <b>True Power</b>
body:
I believe that somehow the DO is using True Power to weaken and break the seals. As far as I can remember there has been no mention of what affect the TP would have on cuendillar - I find it likely that the TP could weaken or break cuendillar over time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-01 02:18:16
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
I love this theory! Its some nice thinking from a different perspective, and it makes perfect sense. But I have to agree with LordTalix too. Objects supposedly don't contain the one power unless its one of those wells like the one Cadsuane has. kcf may have the right idea with the True Power. After all, in ACoS When Rand's and &quot;the Wanderer's&quot; balefires intersected, they kind of cancelled each other out. Maybe the Dark One, instead of sucking the One power out, is really negating the One Power with the True Power.<br /><br />Either way, I think at the very least this is a theory in the right direction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-01 23:59:22
subject: <b>The One Power in the Seals</b>
body:
Something to remember about the discs- they were the focal point for the seals on the DO's prison.  They, as cuendillar, do not inherently contain the OP.  However, they are a physical anchor for the weaves making up the seals.  Therefore, it is possible that if the DO can affect the OP weaves that make up the seal on his prison that there would be some effect on those physical anchors.  This is especially true if he is using the TP to do it.<br /><br />The True Power- Evil Concentrate.  Mix one can TP with one can water.  Stir.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 17:51:06
subject: <b>This can't be right</b>
body:
Why can the DO absorb the OP from the Seals now, but couldn't at any time over the last 3,000 years?<br /><br />You may say: &quot;Well the seals are weakening, therefore he can touch the world&quot;, but until the seals started to weaken, he COULDN'T touch the world, so how did he start the process?<br /><br />This just doesn't make sense.  Sorry, nice idea though.


created: 2004-01-03 05:29:50
subject: <b>Why now and not before?</b>
body:
Because the Dragon had to be reborn.  The DO wants to turn Rand or defeat him. The DO can't do either if the Dragon hasn't been reborn.<br /><br />That's why the time is now. Too early and the DO can't win without the Dragon there. Too late and the DO can't affect the world, or the Dragon is in too strong a position.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 21:22:45
subject: <b>More support for the True Power</b>
body:
If we know that cuendillar absorbs power used against it, then the use of True Power against it would cause cuendillar to absorb the True Power. Wouldn't this be a destructive force causing the slow destruction of the seals? Of course if the seals were set perfectly, there would be no access for the Dark One to use the True Power on the seals, but we know the seals weren't perfect, so over time he could pore more True Power into them. Now that they are weakening, he can escape and pore more and more of the True Power into them, so they are degrading faster. I like this theory since it is using the property of heartstone (absorb power) against it using the corruption of the True Power.


created: 2004-01-04 17:20:02
subject: <b>A very nice Theory</b>
body:
I agree that the weakening of the Seals is caused by the DO getting more access to the World.<br /><br />My big problem is : how did the Seal in tEotW break. It obviously retains its strength, because the DO was only using Its power as the access to the World increases.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 17:44:26
subject: <b>Nice work.....</b>
body:
All that time in the mines paid off, huh?  He he...<br /><br />I agree 100%.... I see all the pieces of the puzzle fall into plave with this theory. thanks Linda.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 14:19:58
subject: <b>moirane could be wrong</b>
body:
Remember M also said that to heal stilling was as impossible as healing the dead. She was wrong. It could be possible to make an object contain the Power, like the wells.<br /><br />The seals could even have properties such as the wells, Obviously they are made with the power in some way, and in That town where we are introduced to the wells(with the anti-power ter angreal) i think the seals would still work.<br /><br />But as to the nature of cuendillar I thought that the power was , in that lattice/pattern thing overlaid over the subjuect matter, not put into it. So that you wouldn't &lt;i&gt;absorb&lt;i&gt; the power from it but peel it sort of off of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My sig got old and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-05 00:22:06
subject: <b>What I have gatherd</b>
body:
Ok, the first seal breaks (the one in The eye) the forsaken close to the outside of the seal come do there thing...... Now that one of the seals are broken the DO can start to crumble the other ones.<br /><br />   If cuendillar (from this point on called C)is indestructiable then how can it get stronger when channeled upon? If the streangth of the C is relitive to the power in it it would explain why some sisters can do it faster than others.<br /><br />   OK the eye of the world made for the &quot;greatest need of mankind&quot; (don't know the exact wording) It teaches rand to channel and in some way contribute to the breaking of the seal.....<br /><br />   Also when rand is in the box he feels his shield which has several sharp points (how many?) the seals serve as these points......<br /><br />   At this point for me the question is how the first seal broke? Was it something worked into the &quot;grand plan&quot; on a human scale....<br /><br />   Does it break at the poit that the creator/DO speaks to rand? If it is the DO can he talk to him now that one of the seals broke. Or is it the creator at this pivitol monent were the wheels have been set in motion for the next last battle?


created: 2004-09-25 12:57:31
subject: <b>excellent</b>
body:
Either the seals absorbed TP and weakened, or the DO absorbed the OP from them to weaken them. Remember, Shaidar Haran, as the Hand of the Shadow can negate or absorb the Op with his presence, like when he was in the room with Alviarin &amp; Mesaana. The fragments of the first seal may have stayed strong b/c it was the 1st one the DO could act on, and he had to acto on it with a different means than the others. Think of the difference between breaking a piece of clay with a hammer or dissolving it in water. Maybe he could use the TP to dissolve the other seals?<br /><br />And incidentally, the OP is present in all things. Channelers can feel the OP suffusing everything when they embrace the Source. It's just that channelers are the only things that can manipulate the OP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-23 19:33:26
subject: <b>Here we go</b>
body:
I just thought about this possibility. Someone up this line said something about the Dark One being able to 'feel' the seals to his prison. Something I immediatly thought about (someone may have mentioned it) is when Rand was held captive at Dumai's Wells. Rand could 'feel' the 'knot' where the Aes Sedai held his shield. Is it possible that these seals on the Dark One's prisons simply act like, say, putting a pad-lock on a shielding weave that has been tied off? The cuendillar could then crumble after the dark one has smashed down the barrier as rand did. It could be that they crumble because of the tension that was going through them. Thats all i've got. <br /><br />Peac3<br />Jacob


created: 2007-03-12 12:42:43
subject: <b>Bah, they break 'cus...</b>
body:
Well, it is clearly stated that the stone gets stronger when you apply force. It is my theory that cuendillar gains and loses strenght the same way that muscles do. When no force or training is applied they degrade. When force/training IS applied it breaks down and then rebuilds to greater strenght.<br />To loose strenght through training you would have to use large amounts of strenght but as the muscle degrades through inactivity the amount of stress it can take is reduced.<br /><br />The seals were kept protected from force and thus degraded, the &quot;evil&quot; feeling is simply the dark one in contact with the seals when they become weak enough to let his &quot;aura&quot; or whatever through. When they break the evil feeling dissapears simply because the seals themselves were never in direct contact with the dark one, they only worked as focalpoints.


created: 2008-08-21 10:17:58
subject: <b>Remember, the Dark One is a diety.</b>
body:
Cuendillar cannot be destroyed, broken, damaged, balefired, or in any way weakened by any means usable by regular people, with the power or without.<br /><br />However, the Dark One is not a regular person. The Dark One is a diety with immense power equal to - or at least close to - that of the Creator. We have already seen the Dark One's touch make seemingly impossible things possible - fog that kills, reflections and drawings coming to life, dust trying to kill you, etc.<br /><br />Thus, it isn't unreasonable to assume that the Dark One can break Cuendillar, too, when he can unravel reality itself.<br /><br />Of course, some might say that he was sealed away and couldn't touch the world, but this isn't entirely true. The Sealing by the Hundred Companions used only Saidin - thus, as we've seen plenty of evidence for, the sealing of the Bore was imperfect. It's quite understandable that after 3,000 years of exertions against this flawed seal, the cumilative pressure was enough to weaken the 7 focus points to the breaking point. With each broken focus point, the seal weakened, allowing the Dark One to break them faster and faster, which is why 4 of the focus points have broken within the space of a few years.<br /><br />Of course, once each focus point was broken, the Dark One relaxed his grip on the Cuendillar that used to compose it, since there was no longer any point in weakening it. Thus, the leftover rubble becomes invincible to human attack once more, as if it matters anymore.


created: 2003-12-30 20:51:27
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
and now in CoT mesaana was brought to heel as well. and this brings up a question i have been thinking about, because semmy seems to be controlling suroth right now. however, suroth used to take orders from ishamael. i'm sort of surprised that ishy would let control of the seanchan just slip away to a forsaken not serving his ends.<br /><br />this brings up my question, do you think that semmy has been brought to heel behind the scenes or are she and demandred the only two still holding out working their own plans?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 22:40:00
subject: <b>Another reason</b>
body:
Moridin says that he is &quot;playing both sides of the board&quot; meaning he is placed in such a way that he benifits no matter what happens. He may not have had his plans in place yet, which may have included but probably were not limited to bringing all the forsaken to heel, so he needed Rand alive to ensure his benifit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-31 05:14:42
subject: <b>Some right thoughts...</b>
body:
at the beginning and in the middle of your theory.<br />Sure, Moridin wanted all Forsaken under his thumb. <br />And now in CoT after Mesaana's punishment, he has them all in control as the DO's Nae'blis (also Demandred has to serve him as we see in WH and surely Semirhage).<br />I believe that like Demandred, also all &quot;normal&quot; Forsaken have figured now that Moridin is Ishamael.<br /><br />I don't agree with your main idea that Moridin wanted Sammael's death. though. <br /><br />That's not right. Moridin even says that he won't kill Sammael. <br />And indeed in the same way as Moridin gets all other Forsaken under his thumb (with SH's help), he had certainly also got Sammael; at least I see no reason which speaks against it.<br /><br />He only helped Rand so that he won't die because at this point Moridin thought also Rand was under control and that this would benefit the Shadow's plans to create chaos (which was not really right as we see especially WH where Rand shall be killed again to prevent the Cleansing).<br />


created: 2004-01-02 17:11:21
subject: <b>Don't Forget Mesaana...</b>
body:
She was cornered by Shaidar Haran in the White Tower and presumably raped. It is likely that Mesaana is now serving Moridin. Now it's six and Demandred and Semirhage are left. &quot;All would serve him before the end.&quot; The end, I believe, is Tarmon Gai'don. Only two to go, meaning Tarmon Gai'don is not long in coming.<br /><br />This may be a stretch: Semirhage may be forced to serve Moridin after the Seanchan failure to retain Rand. Demandred? I don't know...he's a wiley little Forsaken, perhaps wiley enough to last independently to Tarmon Gai'don unless he makes a big mistake (through the Asha'man or the Prophet Masema?) and get caught by Moridin or killed by Rand.<br /><br />Good thinking on your part!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 17:56:30
subject: <b>A thought...</b>
body:
Nice theory Barid, though I don't have any particular views either way.<br /><br />A thought struck me though when reading your theory, and I wondered what people thought: maybe Shaidar Haran is Moridin + Mask of Mirrors.<br /><br />I've not done any research on this, it just popped into my head, so maybe someone will shoot it down immediately.  However I'm curious - what do people think?


created: 2004-01-03 14:03:25
subject: <b>Weakness</b>
body:
<b>A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul</b> SH during Chapter 40 A Crown of Sword.<br /> We see Moridin almost same time in Ebou Dar in chapter 2 The Path of Daggers without having that problem. Logically if they are same being they both should have that weakness.


created: 2004-01-03 19:45:26
subject: <b>Isn't Semirhage already an ally?</b>
body:
If you believe Moridin and Shaidar Haran are totally in league with each other, than Semirhage is already under his thumb.  She was torturing Cabriana on the Dark One's orders, and Shaidar Haran showed up to ask what she had learned.  Then the info she gathered was passed on to Aran'gar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 21:32:26
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
it's a good well thought out theory. Etzel do u always have to argue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 11:24:59
subject: <b>To snakesummener</b>
body:
<b> Etzel do u always have to argue. </b><br /><br />It's really never any personal ill-will against a theory writer intended if I disagree with a particular theory, even if it seems a bit harsh sometimes.<br /><br />Sure, I like to argue, it's fun and instructive, the blackboards are made for this. <br />But I always just express my honest opinion, if I can agree or have to disagree with the arguments in a theory or comment.


created: 2004-02-15 17:31:03
subject: <b>turning rand</b>
body:
turning rand to the DO is just the will of the GLotD and making the other Chosen knee to him is just the part of a greater plan.<br />Just remember that Ishamael has always been plotty and plans great schemes. It is not the will of the Dark One to unite the Forsaken; only the strongest may survive. Having them under control, though, is a good way to achieve things he couldn't have without them...<br />But once his plans are unraveled, there would be no further need for useless forsaken<br /><br />mwarahaha


created: 2004-10-06 18:53:02
subject: <b>I'm glad SOMEBODY remembered Semi</b>
body:
Kudos to whoever remembered that Semi is ALREADY working with Moridin and the DO.  At the beginning of LOC, we see Semi in a Tel'aran'rhiod-esque dungeon torturing Cabriana Mecandes.  Then SH shows up and requests a status report.  Semi reveals to us that the DO has DIRECTLY (i.e. spoken to her, not just through SH) order her to do this stuff and obey SH unquestioningly.<br /><br />I see Graendal and Semirhage, next to Ishy, to be the most dangerous of the Forsaken.  All the other men are consumed by their little hatreds and stupidities (Osan'gar!  What a chump!), and the other women each have their own weaknesses (Lanfear: ego/revenge against Rand, Moggy: cowardice, Mesaana: she's just plain messed up and stupid.) Graendal's been discussed to no end, but I think that Semi's been sadly neglected.<br /><br />Take a closer look at her POV.  Only she, out of all the other Forsaken, liken the events of WOT to a game.  She talks about tech'ran (or something like that, don't have LOC with me), and likens the Chosen to Spires, saying that one of the best ways to distract the opponent was to sacrifice the Spires in a false attack.  I think that of all the Forsaken, she is the one that realizes that they're all little more than pawns in the DO's game, not trusted servants.  In her own mind, she agrees to submit to the Nae'blis (whoever he is, Moridin not being around yet) in the letter of the law, and wait for an opportunity for backstabbin'.<br /><br />So, Semi is following Moridin's orders.  But whether or not that'll last...


created: 2005-02-25 15:30:46
subject: <b>Agreement</b>
body:
I agree. That alliance wud hav been dangerous if not controlled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mightiest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 02:52:21
subject: <b>One thing I thought...</b>
body:
Right at the start of WoT Ishy comes to Lews and &quot;shows&quot; him what Lews did to his family, Lews takes off and kills himself (starting the BotW), Ishy follows Lews there and says &quot;You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time&quot;<br />Ishy has lost to the Dragon and wants revenge, he will do whatever he needs to do to see that he is the only one who can gets his hands on the Dragon, even if that means that he helps the Dragon kill another Chosen/Forsaken....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Caveat emptor....to all that enter here...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-<i>In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity <br />-I never think of the future - it comes soon enough.<br />-If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor.</i><br /> Albert Einstein</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-06 14:53:23
subject: <b>Gloating</b>
body:
Like the person above stated. Ish was there in TEOTW with Lews, but I don't think it's just a hatred for the Dragon or that he wants to be the one to kill him. He needs validation and that is not something the DO offers. So, he wants al'Thor there for gloating purposes. He wants to rub it in the Dragon's face that he won and that he is the best.


created: 2003-12-30 10:15:51
subject: <b>I also think your right</b>
body:
Nice theory. There are some holes in it, but not big enough to slip through. I think you've caught Truth so let's haul it in<br /><br />(<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 11:00:49
subject: <b>Nice, but Graendal did it...</b>
body:
You gave the best/most complete presentation of the Slayer argument that I have read. I am still not convinced.<br /><br />There are a few minor holes here and there, and a strong bias throughout. Below are a few of my issues with the theory:<br /><br />-I would agrue against the timing of Asmo's death - I think that it was much closer to the conclusion of the battle than you present. <br /><br />-I think that it is very unclear if Asmo would recognise Slayer. This point is very debatable, and I'm not sure either side of the argument can be conclusive.<br /><br />-Your argument about Graendal using a MoM is flawed. She would never carry out an assasignation like this without making it clear to the victim - the forsaken are just to vain and overconfident to kill a colleague/rival/enemy without them knowing who it was that killed them.<br /><br />-You are too quick to dismiss Slayer's own thoughts about past killings. There are/were only 13 forsaken in the world. Any forsaken would be one of the greatest potential kills for an assassin, especially one like Slayer.<br /><br />-I still don't buy that Slayer was on obvious character when RJ made his now infamous statement. We didn't know much at that time.<br /><br />-You say that RJ says that only one person has guessed the killer correctly - that would dicount both Graendal and Slayer. When I read the interview and such, I got the impression that only one person had correctly laid out all of the events about the killing (not just the correct killer).<br /><br />All in all, a great theory, but I'm still in the Graendal camp.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 11:21:07
subject: <b>not yet convinced</b>
body:
a great theory that definetly shifted the balance of my personal belief a little bit towards Slayer, but I as kcf already pointed out, some problems are still unsolved.<br />So I am not yet convinced it was Slayer.<br />My comment about the famous &quot;obvious&quot; remark: I remember reading somewhere (I think it was in the RJ-Quotes-section of this site) that RJ said this phrasse was used by one of his  teachers to annoy the pupils. I therefor think he made this statement to show his readers that obvious can mean something totally different for someone else than it does to yourself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.<br />        (Terry Pratchett)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 12:36:44
subject: <b>Concerning the problems</b>
body:
To kcf, <br /><br /><b> -I would agrue against the timing of Asmo's death - I think that it was much closer to the conclusion of the battle than you present. </b><br /><br />Rand's and Asmo's PoV in TFoH, ch.56, make it clear that at least a few hours have passed since the battle.  <br /><br />There are e.g. Enaila &amp; Somara who tell Rand that the Aiel are still chasing some Shadowspawn, but the city shall be safe now. <br />If it was be immediately after the battle, they could not be sure that the city is secured already.  <br /><br />They also bring Rand a soup because Rand has &quot;not eaten yet today&quot;. I doubt that the Aiel would cook a soup at once after the battle is over. <br /><br />A last example is Asmo's thought that &quot;he was not sure what had happened that morning&quot;.<br /><br /><b> -I think that it is very unclear if Asmo would recognise Slayer. This point is very debatable, and I'm not sure either side of the argument can be conclusive. </b><br /><br />I read that RJ said that all Forsaken at least heard of Slayer. <br />And indeed this is confirmed by Slayer's POV in WH.<br />Also e.g. Moridin mentions Isam at the Forsaken Coffee Hour, and apparently all Forsaken know the name.<br /><br />Thus we can only argue if it was possible to figure that the Forsaken know Slayer way back in TFoH when Asmo was killed. <br /><br />I pointed out how important Slayer (or rather Isam) is for the Shadow.<br /><br />It was really no stretch to imagine that the Forsaken know him and what he does. On the contrary, it had been a surprise if the Forsaken don't know such an important man for the Shadow.<br />If then someone appears out of thin air before you with a weapon in the hand, it should be clear it's the assassin Slayer. <br /><br />Of course maybe the other interpretation of the words: &quot;You? No!&quot; is right, and Asmo thought in the first moment the person was Lan or Rand.<br /><br /><b> -Your argument about Graendal using a MoM is flawed. She would never carry out an assasignation like this without making it clear to the victim - the forsaken are just to vain and overconfident to kill a colleague/rival/enemy without them knowing who it was that killed them. </b><br /><br />As I said if Graendal was the killer, it only makes sense that she killed Asmo because they met by chance.<br />Graendal could no know that Asmo would enter. Why should the DO order of all his servants just Graendal to assassinate him? <br />If Graendal was in the palace, she must have had another motive like searching *angreals.<br />Since Aviendha felt no saidar Graendal must have disguised the OP (or used the TP). <br />But if she does that to stay undetected, I see no reason why she had not also used a MoM for her security. <br /><br /><b> -You are too quick to dismiss Slayer's own thoughts about past killings. There are/were only 13 forsaken in the world. Any forsaken would be one of the greatest potential kills for an assassin, especially one like Slayer. </b><br /><br />Slayer says he had <b> especially enjoyed </b> the killing of the two Aes Sedai (not that they were his most prominent victims). I gave some possible explainations.<br /><br />An additional explaination would be that Slayer hates Aes Seai for some reason (maybe bad experiences, Luc e.g. was sent by an Aes Sedai to the Blight and thus to his &quot;death&quot; somehow).<br />Or Slayer did not see Asmo as a Forsaken anymore, only a powerless traitor.<br /><br />I want to say again that of course RJ does not tell it frankly in this POV because he does not want to solve the riddle such quickly.<br />Graendal also never thinks that she killed Asmo (and she has even 4 POVs compared to 1 Slayer/Isam POV!), although she reflects on the other Forsaken she was connected with, e.g. Sammael.<br />That Slayer doesn't consider how great it was to kill Asmo doesn't speak against him; it's easy to explain.<br /><br /><b> -I still don't buy that Slayer was on obvious character when RJ made his now infamous statement. We didn't know much at that time. </b><br /><br />We knew enough but we did not connect it as I did in the theory.<br /><br />Besides, tell me why Graendal was so much more obvious than e.g. Sammael or Demandred with the informations from the books till the end of TFoH.  <br /><br /><b> -You say that RJ says that only one person has guessed the killer correctly - that would dicount both Graendal and Slayer. When I read the interview and such, I got the impression that only one person had correctly laid out all of the events about the killing (not just the correct killer). </b><br /><br />I believe the correct clues for the Graendaldunnit case are easier to figure than the Slayerdunnit hints which I collected.<br /><br /><b> All in all, a great theory, but I'm still in the Graendal camp. </b><br /><br />Thanks, I will try to convince you nevertheless. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To ponder stibbons,<br /><br /><b> a great theory that definetly shifted the balance of my personal belief a little bit towards Slayer, but I as kcf already pointed out, some problems are still unsolved.<br />So I am not yet convinced it was Slayer. </b><br /><br />Look above.<br /><br /><b> My comment about the famous &quot;obvious&quot; remark: I remember reading somewhere (I think it was in the RJ-Quotes-section of this site) that RJ said this phrasse was used by one of his teachers to annoy the pupils. I therefor think he made this statement to show his readers that obvious can mean something totally different for someone else than it does to yourself. </b><br /><br />It's possible that the obvious comment doesn't mean that much. <br /><br />Nevertheless, if you compare Slayer with Graendal, I say the first is much more obvious if you carefully read the books and connect all clues concerning Slayer.


created: 2003-12-30 13:47:32
subject: <b>You have no reason to connect the clues</b>
body:
If it was obvious by the end of book 5 then there have to be 2 things.<br /><br />1) The clues have to be there, which for both cases they were<br />2) You need to have a way to connect the clues. For both you have no reason to connect the clues untill after because of evidence from other POVs. Example. For Slayer, at the end of book 5. We know he us Luc and Isam (connecting dark prophecy and evidence in battle for 2 rivers) He can use TAR (book 4) and we know 2 Aes Sedai died mysteriously in the Stone of Tear. Untill later, when Slayer says he killed the 2 Aes Sedai you have no reason to connect those deaths to him.<br /><br />Still, the &quot;You? No!&quot; is more likely to point to Lan (assuming it was Slayer that killed him) because Asmo would have no reason to be surprised to see Rand.<br /><br />Oh and a nitpick, you said Slayer killed him with a crossbow at point blank. The crossbow would have gone through and damaged the wall/door behind him, or at the very least have made a really bloddy mess that Slayer would have to clean up before anyone came. I think it is much more likely if it was slayer that he used his thin dagger, not a crossbow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 14:39:06
subject: <b>no need to clean the mess</b>
body:
there has been a battle in the palace. One more damaged wall or door an another splash of blood wouldn&#180;t attract attention.<br />BTW, I gave the thoery a &quot;thumbs up&quot; because all the points mentioned were reasonable and logical although I am not convinced Slayer was it. I wouldn&#180;t bet on Graendal either...<br />But here is just an idea why Graendal might have dropped her MoM: It has been pointed out on several occasions that MoM fails if the disguised person is touched physically. Just this might have happened if Aiel searching the palace for shadowspawn encountered someone suspicious. Just a thought, howerver... I might have missed something crucial there...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.<br />        (Terry Pratchett)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 15:38:19
subject: <b>I agree that Asmo was killed to make way for Taim</b>
body:
I'm glad you included that. So many don't answer why Asmo was killed at that time.<br /><br />At that time we didn't know Slayer was the DO's hit man ans was employed by the Forsaken. So RJ's comment that it was obvious who did it is not as appplicable to Slayer.<br /><br />Can you explain why the DO &quot; practically offered her (Graendal) Naeblis?&quot; I think it was to overcome Graendal's reluctance to perform Asmo's assassination.<br /><br />So I am still in the Graendal camp.<br /><br /><br />Nice work on the theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 16:15:01
subject: <b>Why Graendal was offerd Nae'blis</b>
body:
Why shouldt he offer her Nae'blis? He offered that to almost all the forsaken.<br />Probably to get them to work harder.<br />About the theory, I liked it, makes much sence...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.<br />-Zaphod Beeblebrox<br />The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 16:25:21
subject: <b>It WAS Slayer!</b>
body:
I like! I think that Graendal is too cautious to let herself be recognized during an assasination, while Slayer seems to revel in causing fear and death. I've always thought it was Slayer and was excited to see that there are others who think the same way. Great work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 16:31:28
subject: <b>Well presented</b>
body:
I don't necessarily agree, but it was a well written theory.<br /><br />I still don't believe that no one agrees with me that it was either Moiraine that did it, despite no proof whatsoever, or Asmodean was just taken back to Shayol Ghul to be force fed Girl Scout Cookies, the most evil creation ever...


created: 2003-12-30 22:37:13
subject: <b>Not Moridin</b>
body:
2 reasons.<br /><br />1) We didn't know about him yet<br /><br />2) Jordan has said many times that 'death took him' is not a pun on Moridin's name<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-31 04:22:26
subject: <b>Some comments</b>
body:
To Rand_Al-Thor,<br /><br /><b>  If it was obvious by the end of book 5 then there have to be 2 things.<br /><br />1) The clues have to be there, which for both cases they were<br />2) You need to have a way to connect the clues. For both you have no reason to connect the clues untill after because of evidence from other POVs. Example. For Slayer, at the end of book 5. We know he us Luc and Isam (connecting dark prophecy and evidence in battle for 2 rivers) He can use TAR (book 4) and we know 2 Aes Sedai died mysteriously in the Stone of Tear. Untill later, when Slayer says he killed the 2 Aes Sedai you have no reason to connect those deaths to him. </b><br /><br />We knew that Slayer is a killer sent by the Shadow to deal with renegades. He shall hunt Fain and brings some Gray Men with him.<br /><br />Also Fain's Myrddraal fears Slayer will kill him if he helps Fain.<br />We see Slayer in TAR, hunting there, too. <br /><br />We knew that you can enter TAR in the flesh but that is evil and you lose something of your humanity (TSR, ch.23). Slayer has a cold scent that is not really human (TSR, ch.28 ).<br />If you are able you can enter and leave TAR everywhere (Rand &amp; Rhavin do that). <br /><br />When the Aes Sedai in the Stone were killed we learn that it could not have been a Gray Man but someone they don't know yet. It must done by someone who can easily enter all places.<br /><br />That fits with the murder in the WT where a Gray Man is killed. We could conclude that this was done by the same person who killed the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />The only problem was that the first two killings occured before we knew the killer. <br />But the third murder (of Asmo) was indeed obvious then. <br />At least after WH it should have been plain for everyone that Slayer killed Asmo.<br /><br /><b> Still, the &quot;You? No!&quot; is more likely to point to Lan (assuming it was Slayer that killed him) because Asmo would have no reason to be surprised to see Rand. </b><br /><br />Yes, possible. <br /><br /><b> Oh and a nitpick, you said Slayer killed him with a crossbow at point blank. The crossbow would have gone through and damaged the wall/door behind him, or at the very least have made a really bloddy mess that Slayer would have to clean up before anyone came. I think it is much more likely if it was slayer that he used his thin dagger, not a crossbow. </b><br /><br />What ponder stibbons said. <br /><br />Plus, I doubt that a bolt would go through Asmo's body necessarily.<br /><br /><br />To ponder stibbons <br /><br /><b> But here is just an idea why Graendal might have dropped her MoM: It has been pointed out on several occasions that MoM fails if the disguised person is touched physically. Just this might have happened if Aiel searching the palace for shadowspawn encountered someone suspicious. Just a thought, howerver... I might have missed something crucial there... </b><br /><br />But then the Aiel had known that it was someone else behind the MoM. Do you think Graendal killed everyone?<br /><br />Anyway, I doubt that Graendal would stumble across some Aiel. <br /><br /><br />To linda_sedai,<br /><br /><b> At that time we didn't know Slayer was the DO's hit man ans was employed by the Forsaken. So RJ's comment that it was obvious who did it is not as appplicable to Slayer. </b><br /><br />We knew it. <br />The Shadow sent him to kill Fain. And there were the other two murders.<br /><br /><b> Can you explain why the DO &quot; practically offered her (Graendal) Naeblis?&quot; I think it was to overcome Graendal's reluctance to perform Asmo's assassination. </b><br /><br />I can't believe it was for killing Asmo. <br />Why give just Graendal this task? <br />The Shadow has more suitable personnel for such a job; the decision to take Graendal would not seem very reasonable but random. Why not give the order to all Forsaken then?<br />But in the other Forsaken POV it's made clear that they never got such an order. <br /><br />It's also a too much to give Nae'blis for killing one powerless traitor.<br /><br />No, as Elell0n said alreay, the DO offered probably every Forsaken Nae'blis, so that they work more eager. <br />At least we know that he offered it Demandred, maybe also Sammael (and surely Ishamael/Moridin).<br />Graendal should create chaos and if she is successful she could become Nae'blis.<br /><br />After all Graendal still believes in LoC that she will become Nae'blis, that means after Asmo's death.<br />But if she was promised Nae'blis for the murder she should be alreay Nae'blis or at least show signs of angry that she did not become it yet.<br /><br />Of course there are several other problems why it can't be Graendal as I pointed out in the theory.<br /><br /><br />To Omen671,<br /><br />It was not Moridin. <br /><br />Besides what Rand_Al-Thor said, Asmo could not recognize Moridin. There is no reason to show him the Ishamael-face as a MoM for only one second. <br /><br />Also Moridin fails the obvious criteria. He could not know that Asmo would enter this room and be prepared to kill him.


created: 2003-12-31 04:33:41
subject: <b>Graendal&#180;s MoM</b>
body:
&quot;But then the Aiel had known that it was someone else behind the MoM. Do you think Graendal killed everyone?&quot;<br />What I meant is that Graendal might have dropped her MoM shortly after the battle to avoid being revealed by accident. She might have thought this is a smaller risk because only few people around actually knew her face. But then the only one that did stumbled across her while she was hiding in the wine cellar. No time to think how risky it was, she just killed him quickly. And was lucky Avi wasn&#180;t close enough.<br />Well, it doesn&#180;t sound very RJ-like, but it still might be possible.<br />I totally agree with you concerning the shiver Asmo felt before opening the door. If it  had been the sign of a female channeller nearby, an AOL-channeller like Asmo would have recognised it and be prepared before opening the door.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.<br />        (Terry Pratchett)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-31 05:55:28
subject: <b>It was several hours after the battle</b>
body:
<b> What I meant is that Graendal might have dropped her MoM shortly after the battle to avoid being revealed by accident. She might have thought this is a smaller risk because only few people around actually knew her face. But then the only one that did stumbled across her while she was hiding in the wine cellar. No time to think how risky it was, she just killed him quickly. And was lucky Avi wasn&#180;t close enough. </b><br /><br />Also it's more likely that someone touches you in a battle.<br /><br />Besides, we see e.g. that Lanfear uses a MoM a very long time among people (as Keille Shaogi), apparently without fearing really any detecting, and indeed no one reveals her true identity.<br />This shows that MoM are normally no risk.<br /><br /><b> Well, it doesn&#180;t sound very RJ-like, but it still might be possible. </b><br /><br />Don't think so. Would be poor writing, too.<br />


created: 2003-12-31 09:27:31
subject: <b>i never knew that...</b>
body:
about the one fan. that changes everything. where did you find that information?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 03:49:42
subject: <b>To Moiraine44</b>
body:
IIRC RJ said this about the one fan who wrote him the correct solution in an interview. Maybe you can find it if you search the WoT MB.<br /><br />He obvioulsy didn't mean that only one person guessed the right name (since all persons were mentioned more or less), but that this fan found all clues which lead to the killer, how and why Asmo died.<br /><br />As you know RJ also said that <i> he </i> thinks it should be obvious who the killer is. <br />On the other hand he said that it's possible to <i> figure </i> the killer's identity only with clues form the first 5 books till the murder (though he gave additional hints in the following books).<br /><br />I think if we have to figure the killer by connecting clues and only one fan wrote the correct answer, it's not such blatant obvious, except for RJ who wrote the books and knows all clues.<br /><br />In any case, it rather points to Slayer (who can be figured with clues from the first five books as I showed in my theory) than to Graendal, who is a high suspect because other Forsaken are ruled out in the later books. <br />Also that Graendal states that she thinks Asmo is dead (probably <i> the </i> main clue for the Graendal camp) is in LoC, i.e. after the murder.


created: 2004-01-02 10:33:29
subject: <b>You know, Slayer is TOTALLY obviously the killer</b>
body:
I mean, come on, just look at the situation.<br /><br />The murder happens at the end of book 5, and RJ said all our clues are right there.  Slayer is INSTANTLY obviously it, and we can tell right from when we see him last!  Check it out.  He's running from Emond's Field in the form of Luc with an arrow through his chest towards the end of book 4, over 1000 pages before Asmo is knocked off!  And that's the last time we see him before book 9!<br /><br />How much more obvious can you get?<br /><br />*snorts*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 11:23:53
subject: <b>To Vercingetorix</b>
body:
Slayer is the Shadow's assassin, can enter &amp; leave TAR in the flesh, did two other murders, knows the Forsaken and they certainly him. We could figure or knew all that before LoC.<br /><br />Therefore RJ was right and it was indeed obvious that he killed Asmo, although you have to connect all points from different books (and thus apparently only one fan wrote him the correct answer).


created: 2004-01-02 13:10:34
subject: <b>Etzel,</b>
body:
I'm sorry but it seems that in this instance RJ has you twisted up like a pretzel.  Slayer is far from obvious.  RJ's quote about the one fan is old.  <br /><br />At the time of the murder, without the info you have from later books, HOW could you even consider Slayer?  You can't.  RJ has sourly misdirected you.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 14:59:21
subject: <b>A non-sarcastic response this time</b>
body:
Okay, Etzel.  I am going to respond to a few things in your theory that I find contradictory/lacking and also reiterate my reasons why Slayer cannot be the killer, but in a much less sarcastic manner.<br /><br />First, comments on your theory.<br /><br />&quot;Asmodean knows her, but it is not very likely that she would scare him like that.&quot; (In reference to Graendal)<br /><br />Asmodean has betrayed the Dark One and his fellow Forsaken.  Granted, he did not have much of a choice, but he betrayed them none the less.  If any of the forsaken ran into him they would have killed him instantly for at least two reasons.  First, because he betrayed them, and second, because it would deprive Rand of valuable teaching skills, as pathetic as they are.  And Asmodean, while a channeler, and one of the most powerful ones at that, is shielded so that he cannot channel all that much power.  If he were to come across a forsaken, who again, are pretty much the most powerful channelers ever, he has to know they will kill him and that he has no way to stand up to them in his weakened state.  THerefor he is going to be VERY afraid of ANY Forsaken, whether it's Graendal or Ishamael.<br /><br />&quot;If the Shadow uses his best assassin for these persons, it only makes sense that the DO would send him to kill the traitor Asmodean, too. <br />Therefore Slayer has without a doubt a good motive &quot;<br /><br />You use Slayer's role as a hitman to show why he had motive, ie ordered by the Dark One, yet earlier you say that there was no overall order to kill Asmodean: &quot;Also from other Forsaken PoVs we got no indication that the DO gave an overall order to kill Asmo.&quot;  So you are arguing that He just ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean and no one else.  He could just as easily ordered ONE forsaken to do it, and not declared an all out death warrant on him.  You're contradicting yourself here.  Incidently, I don't think the Dark One ordered his death at all.<br /><br />&quot;It&#8217;s also possible that Asmo thought on the first view that Lan or Rand stands before him because Isam/Luc look a bit like them. <br />This would explain Asmodean&#8217;s last words quite nicely:&#8220;You [Lan/Rand]? No [it&#8217;s Slayer]!&quot;<br /><br />That's just silly.  The color fades from his face before he speaks.  Why would he suddenly be afraid of Rand to the point of absolute terror?  Or Lan for that matter?  It is clearly written to show that Asmodean sees his killer, becomes terrified, states his surprise at seeing the attacker and then his desire to not die.  (The scene is so reminiscent of Belal's death it's not even funny, which was by balefire in case you do not recall...bringing up another point later on)<br /><br />&quot;Since this knowledge surprises even Demandred, it&#8217;s clear that normally the DO doesn&#8217;t immediately know of a Chosen&#8217;s death. <br />Someone must have told it him; most likely the killer.&quot;<br /><br />That is not what I got from that scene at all.  First ooff, the Dark One is the Lord of the GRAVE.  He rules death.  You think he wouldn't know the instant Asmodean was dead and now within his grasp to suffer eternal torment?  That's preposterous.  It's more likely that Demandred was surprised that Asmodean was dead, which he indicates by saying that the Great Lord knew more than he did.  Notice how He knows how Rahvin died?  Do you think Slayer was hanging out in TAR watching the fight and said &quot;oh, that forsaken was just killed by balefire&quot;?  No.  The Dark One knows how and when anyone dies.  He'd be a pretty sorry excuse for a Lord of the Grave if he didn't.<br /><br />Yes, Slayer killed the Grey Men, the two Dark Sisters (who were shielded), what he thought were Rand and Min (ASLEEP), some wolves, and possibly the seal stealers.  NONE of those are beings that had any chance of being able to channel.  Channeling is FAST.  Rand stops a dagger in mid air from Bashere without ANY prior indication that he was going to throw it.  Asmodean, even in his weakened state would be able to whip up a quick weave of air to stop any crossbow bolt or lunging dagger or anything Slayer could attack him with(unless you get into the looney idea that he was Luc at the time, who is related to Rand and therefore must be able to channel so therefore he fried Asmodean).  And like you said, Asmodean would recognize Slayer, and would know instantly he was there to try and kill him.  A simple weave of air would do it instantly.  That's something all Accepted and probably most Novices could pull off.  And full blown Aes Sedai are just half trained girls at best to the Forsaken.  There is no way that anything other than channeling could have killed Asmodean.  Period.<br /><br />And now for my comments before that you didn't respond to, as I suppose they were not in a very clear format.<br /><br />RJ says it is obvious from the instant we read the scene.  The last time we saw Slayer was not even in The Fires of Heaven.  It was in The Shadow Rising, in the guise of Luc, running out of Emond's Field with an arrow through his chest!  For all we knew at the time he could have run off into the forest and died.  There is no way to reconcile this piece of evidence that I have ever heard of.  And if that wasn't enough, this next piece is.  Jordan said at the end of Path of Daggers that if we hadn't been able to figure it out by the end of Fires of Heaven, we most certainly could now.  I ask you this: what evidence did we have of Slayer being the killer in books 6-8?  Did we even SEE him in books 6-8?  The answer to the first is none.  The answer to the second is no.  HOW can you possibly reconcile that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 17:39:59
subject: <b>I`m almost convinced-</b>
body:
You have laid out facts pro Slayer, anti Graendal, in the most logical way I have yet read.<br /><br />Except for RJ`s statement on obviousness, I feel it could be Shaidar Haran. If not Haran, then Slayer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 17:45:36
subject: <b>VERY convincing, but...</b>
body:
I have to agree with what Vercingetorix said. Your argument for Slayer is very well constructed. However, it has a very large hole in it: as far as we've seen, it is not Slayer's modus operandi to take a body.  It would have been more effective if Slayer left the body. That way, Rand would be more worried about unseen assassins. With the disappearance of the body, he thought Asmodean merely ran away and dismissed the unfaithful Forsaken. In all of the slayings we know so far, there were always at least a body or a bloody mess left for others to find.<br /><br />A bit of annoying nitpicking: &quot;I doubt that a bolt would go through Asmo's body necessarily.&quot;<br />A crossbow is slightly more powerful than a flint-lock musket, and the human body is such a soft fragile thing. So at point-blank, a crossbow bolt would punch through the body. The bolt that missed the girls at the White Tower stuck into a stone wall and the crossbow was fired from across a courtyard. That should tell you how powerful a crossbow can be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 18:35:18
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
Glad you're still keeping the flag flying on this one, it is definitely Top Mystery.<br /><br />However, despite your copious evidence, I just can't believe it, for 2 interconnected reasons:<br /><br />1.  Slayer didn't appear as the DO's assassin by tFoH<br /><br />2.  And therefore, he's not intuitive.<br /><br />And I just can't believe RJ would make it Slayer. Despite the fact that there is no evidence for it, and a lot of evidence against, I think he will make it Lanfear, because I get the feeling he likes the idea.<br /><br />However, I still think Graendal had both motive and opportunity, and if it was done at the DO's orders (not certain), she is one of the three most likely candidates.<br /><br />The other two, who are not generally thought of as possibilities as they are also not intuitive (but to my mind more likely than Slayer) are:<br /><br />a) Semirhage - the DO has already used her to carry out a specific plan (rescuing Rand in tDR)<br /><br />b) Demandred - who we also know the DO gives special instructions to, and who does &quot;very well&quot; at them<br /><br />Both totally unintuitive, both therefore unlikely.  However so is Slayer.<br /><br />Until RJ gives his Agatha Christie-esque explanation for why it is Lanfear, and why it was obviously her all along, I shall go on supporting Graendal. There is more evidence for her than anyone else, even if most of that evidence is negative (i.e. eliminate everyone else and who are you left with...).


created: 2004-01-02 21:47:51
subject: <b>Once again Vercingetorix</b>
body:
<b> Asmodean has betrayed the Dark One and his fellow Forsaken. Granted, he did not have much of a choice, but he betrayed them none the less. If any of the forsaken ran into him they would have killed him instantly for at least two reasons. First, because he betrayed them, and second, because it would deprive Rand of valuable teaching skills, as pathetic as they are. And Asmodean, while a channeler, and one of the most powerful ones at that, is shielded so that he cannot channel all that much power. If he were to come across a forsaken, who again, are pretty much the most powerful channelers ever, he has to know they will kill him and that he has no way to stand up to them in his weakened state. THerefor he is going to be VERY afraid of ANY Forsaken, whether it's Graendal or Ishamael. </b><br /><br />If I read the scene I imagine Asmo full of panic as if he sees his executioner. And this is Slayer's job not Graendal's.<br /><br /><b> You use Slayer's role as a hitman to show why he had motive, ie ordered by the Dark One, yet earlier you say that there was no overall order to kill Asmodean: &quot;Also from other Forsaken PoVs we got no indication that the DO gave an overall order to kill Asmo.&quot; So you are arguing that He just ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean and no one else. He could just as easily ordered ONE forsaken to do it, and not declared an all out death warrant on him. You're contradicting yourself here. Incidently, I don't think the Dark One ordered his death at all. </b><br /><br />That's not a contradiction at all. <br />I say the DO gave not an order to all his servants to kill Asmo but only to his top hitman Slayer (again, to kill traitors and other enemies is his purpose).<br /><br /><b> That's just silly. The color fades from his face before he speaks. Why would he suddenly be afraid of Rand to the point of absolute terror? Or Lan for that matter? It is clearly written to show that Asmodean sees his killer, becomes terrified, states his surprise at seeing the attacker and then his desire to not die. (The scene is so reminiscent of Belal's death it's not even funny, which was by balefire in case you do not recall...bringing up another point later on) </b><br /><br />Still, the absolute terror rather speaks for the killer Slayer than Graendal. <br /><br /><b> That is not what I got from that scene at all. First ooff, the Dark One is the Lord of the GRAVE. He rules death. You think he wouldn't know the instant Asmodean was dead and now within his grasp to suffer eternal torment? That's preposterous. It's more likely that Demandred was surprised that Asmodean was dead, which he indicates by saying that the Great Lord knew more than he did. Notice how He knows how Rahvin died? Do you think Slayer was hanging out in TAR watching the fight and said &quot;oh, that forsaken was just killed by balefire&quot;? No. The Dark One knows how and when anyone dies. He'd be a pretty sorry excuse for a Lord of the Grave if he didn't. </b><br /><br />I still believe Demandred's surprise shows that the DO doesn't know of every Forsaken death.<br /><br /><b> Yes, Slayer killed the Grey Men, the two Dark Sisters (who were shielded), what he thought were Rand and Min (ASLEEP), some wolves, and possibly the seal stealers. NONE of those are beings that had any chance of being able to channel. Channeling is FAST. Rand stops a dagger in mid air from Bashere without ANY prior indication that he was going to throw it. Asmodean, even in his weakened state would be able to whip up a quick weave of air to stop any crossbow bolt or lunging dagger or anything Slayer could attack him with(unless you get into the looney idea that he was Luc at the time, who is related to Rand and therefore must be able to channel so therefore he fried Asmodean). And like you said, Asmodean would recognize Slayer, and would know instantly he was there to try and kill him. A simple weave of air would do it instantly. That's something all Accepted and probably most Novices could pull off. And full blown Aes Sedai are just half trained girls at best to the Forsaken. There is no way that anything other than channeling could have killed Asmodean. Period. </b><br /><br />No, a crossbow bolt is too fast. <br />Plus, Asmo was surprised and in panik. <br /><br /><b> RJ says it is obvious from the instant we read the scene. The last time we saw Slayer was not even in The Fires of Heaven. It was in The Shadow Rising, in the guise of Luc, running out of Emond's Field with an arrow through his chest! For all we knew at the time he could have run off into the forest and died. There is no way to reconcile this piece of evidence that I have ever heard of. And if that wasn't enough, this next piece is. Jordan said at the end of Path of Daggers that if we hadn't been able to figure it out by the end of Fires of Heaven, we most certainly could now. I ask you this: what evidence did we have of Slayer being the killer in books 6-8? Did we even SEE him in books 6-8? The answer to the first is none. The answer to the second is no. HOW can you possibly reconcile that? </b><br /><br />The end of TSR is maybe three months before Asmo's death. <br />I think we could imagine that Slayer was ok again then. <br /><br />Also as you said he was only wounded and even Fain says that he is still alive.<br />I never thought that Slayer died in the end of TSR and I think also you not really. <br /><br />The evidences in book 6-8 were mainly that other suspects were ruled out. <br />But there were also clues for Slayer, e.g. what the DO said to Demandred or that taim (apparently a DF) appeared after the death..


created: 2004-01-03 04:22:02
subject: <b>Some more replies</b>
body:
To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> You have laid out facts pro Slayer, anti Graendal, in the most logical way I have yet read.<br /><br />Except for RJ`s statement on obviousness, I feel it could be Shaidar Haran. If not Haran, then Slayer </b><br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Against SH speaks also that Asmo would probably not recognize him like all other Forsaken don't know him. <br />And to say &quot;You?&quot; to any Myrddraal is a bit strange. <br /><br /><br />To Gaeran,<br /><br /><b> I have to agree with what Vercingetorix said. Your argument for Slayer is very well constructed. However, it has a very large hole in it: as far as we've seen, it is not Slayer's modus operandi to take a body. It would have been more effective if Slayer left the body. That way, Rand would be more worried about unseen assassins. With the disappearance of the body, he thought Asmodean merely ran away and dismissed the unfaithful Forsaken. In all of the slayings we know so far, there were always at least a body or a bloody mess left for others to find. </b><br /><br />If Slayer is ordered to take the body with him he would do it. <br />I also believe that the messy killing of the BA was ordered by the Shadow.<br /><br />On the other hand, I understand why the Shadow has an interest that Rand still thinks Asmo is alive.<br />He has one more Forsaken to worry about.<br /><br />Besides, as I said the assassination was mainly done to allow Taim to meet Rand. <br />Rand could have been too distrustful if he knew Asmo was slain shortly before Taim's arrive.<br /><br /><b> A crossbow is slightly more powerful than a flint-lock musket, and the human body is such a soft fragile thing. So at point-blank, a crossbow bolt would punch through the body. The bolt that missed the girls at the White Tower stuck into a stone wall and the crossbow was fired from across a courtyard. That should tell you how powerful a crossbow can be. </b><br /><br />Ah well, maybe. <br />But on the other hand as pointed out above, a few hours before Asmo's death was a big battle in the palace, therefore it would not be striking.<br /><br /><br />To Jordanian,<br /><br /><b> 1. Slayer didn't appear as the DO's assassin by tFoH<br /><br />2. And therefore, he's not intuitive.<br /><br />And I just can't believe RJ would make it Slayer. Despite the fact that there is no evidence for it, and a lot of evidence against, I think he will make it Lanfear, because I get the feeling he likes the idea. </b><br /><br />He was introduced as the Shadow's assassin in TSR as I pointed out. <br />He had e.g. to kill the renegade Fain.<br /><br /><b> However, I still think Graendal had both motive and opportunity, and if it was done at the DO's orders (not certain), she is one of the three most likely candidates. </b><br /><br />E.g., how could Graendal know that Asmo would enter? Why did the DO take her for the deed? Why was she obvious compared to other Forsaken?<br /><br /><b> The other two, who are not generally thought of as possibilities as they are also not intuitive (but to my mind more likely than Slayer) are:<br /><br />a) Semirhage - the DO has already used her to carry out a specific plan (rescuing Rand in tDR) </b><br /><br />She is ruled out in LoC, since she believes Asmo is alive.<br /><br /><b> b) Demandred - who we also know the DO gives special instructions to, and who does &quot;very well&quot; at them </b><br /><br />He is also ruled out in LoC because the DO tells him of Asmo's death, he did not know it.<br /><br /><b> Both totally unintuitive, both therefore unlikely. However so is Slayer.<br /><br />Until RJ gives his Agatha Christie-esque explanation for why it is Lanfear, and why it was obviously her all along, I shall go on supporting Graendal. There is more evidence for her than anyone else, even if most of that evidence is negative (i.e. eliminate everyone else and who are you left with...). </b><br /><br />And we get the Graendal evidence especially after TFoH, contrary to the Slayer clues.


created: 2004-01-03 04:27:47
subject: <b>One missed item...</b>
body:
While I can't say I'm convinced either Slayer or Graendal did the dirty deed, Etzel, your arguments have persuaded me to lean a little further towards the former, mainly because Slayer had been a much more tangible presence than Graendal up until the end of tFoH. I'm still inclined to think the true culprit has yet to be definitively, publicly named. That having been said...<br /><br />It has been argued that there was no apparent order to eliminate Asmo from the game, nor is there a solid motive. What I haven't seen mentioned is the other big event in Randland that day: the death of Lanfear in Cairhien.<br /><br />We've seen that the DO cuts a lot of slack to his Chosen in their own schemes until they hang themselves with it. Once that happens no time is wasted tidying the playing field of loose ends, with many examples already noted in this thread. Be'lal's plan to take Callandor and kill the DR fails, Joiya and Amico are marked. Moghedien plays her own game and is caught. Aside from the 11 remaining Black sisters in Tanchico (who are eventually corralled by Moridin), she's her own loose end until Aran'gar frees her to return to Shayol Ghul. Sammael is allowed to run his own show for a while, although we see the DO's impatience with it in SH's PoV in aCoS (Spears, p.637). A chapter later, he's dead with Moridin's assistance because his play ran too far off the DO's new game plan. Fain is the only loose end to resist resolution, despite many efforts.<br /><br />Asmo became Rand's teacher as part of Lanfear's web of machinations, and was allowed to live as long as he did after his forced defection for that reason only. As a successful (if ambitious) agent of the DO, and the engineer of his original release, he gave her a lot of latitude in her schemes, despite her openly plotting against him and providing his enemy with a new edge. With her sudden catastrophic failure, that ended and Asmo became a big loose end. He's killed, the DR's self-determined lessons are ended clearing the way for Taim's influence, the only Chosen to defect becomes an example of the cost of treachery, and a little chaos is sown. On to LoC with the the introduction of Shaidar Haran and the first real signs of an end to the slack and the Chosen being brought to heel.<br /><br />Asmo had to die because his mistress was already dead, and with her any reason for him to be allowed to live. As to who did the killing... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-01-03 12:32:37
subject: <b>Why should Slayer panick when facing Slayer?</b>
body:
Do you forget we're talking of a Forsaken?  Slayer if known to Asmodean is from this age and as far as the Forsaken's arrogance goes....well do I need to say more?  No he would not panick in the face of Slayer.  Lanfear yes Slayer no!<br /><br />This is fun isn't it?  Two theories going at the same time.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 12:53:33
subject: <b>Asmo panics...</b>
body:
because Slayer suddenly pops before him, has a weapon in his hand and thus Asmo can conclude that he has to die in the next moment.<br /><br />I give you that Asmo also would have paniced if Lanfear suddenly stood before him, but I don't see and no one gives a convincing explaination how this could have happened (the idea with the Finn wishes makes no sense in my view). <br /><br /><b> This is fun isn't it? Two theories going at the same time. </b><br /><br />Indeed. <br />And it's amazing that a topic like Asmo's death was discussed for years and can still increase arguments now. <br />That's what makes WoT such wonderful.


created: 2004-01-03 13:48:23
subject: <b>Rebuttal</b>
body:
<b>If I read the scene I imagine Asmo full of panic as if he sees his executioner. And this is Slayer's job not Graendal's.</b><br /><br />Ignore whether Graendal would be the executioner or not.  Do you think Asmodean would be terrified if he ran into one of the Forsaken, yes or no?  If no, why ever not?  We have never seen Slayer take out an able bodied channeler.  Another channeler would be in a better position to take out a channeler, even if he is weakened.  Keep in mind that I do not think Asmo's death was ordered at all.<br /><br /><b>That's not a contradiction at all. <br />I say the DO gave not an order to all his servants to kill Asmo but only to his top hitman Slayer (again, to kill traitors and other enemies is his purpose).</b><br /><br />My only point is that you dismissed any one of the forsaken as being given an assignment simply because we never saw a blanket statement to all of them.  The Dark One has shown several times that he gives orders to only one Forsaken (having Semirhage send trollocs to the stone, for example).  I just was pointing out that you cannot conclude that one specific forsaken was given an order simply because the forsaken as a whole were not.  Note again, that I don't think it was ordered anyway. <br /><br /><b>Still, the absolute terror rather speaks for the killer Slayer than Graendal. </b><br /><br />Why though?  He would be terrified if any forsaken ran into him.  Also we know specifically that he is frightened by Lanfear from her looking into his dreams.  If you cannot concede that any forsaken would terrify him just as much, if not more, than Slayer(which I sitll haven't heard a logical reason why he wouldn't be terrified of them), you MUST concede that Lanfear would. <br /><br /><b>I still believe Demandred's surprise shows that the DO doesn't know of every Forsaken death.</b><br /><br />So you say that the LORD OF THE GRAVE is not the Lord of the Grave then?  Why is he called that then??<br /><br /><b>No, a crossbow bolt is too fast. <br />Plus, Asmo was surprised and in panik. </b><br /><br />So a crossbow bolt is too fast, but a thrown dagger from very short range is not?  Yes, he is surprised and would be panicking.  But not from a mundane weapon.  I feel that you are just dismissing my arguments here without giving any reason why.  He has hundreds of years of experience channeling...you'd think he would at least TRY something to defend himself if someone came at him with a crossbow.  Take a look at what Lanfear did in TFOH when being attacked on the docks by the aiel.  She destroys MANY arrows coming at her from several directions, fries the archers shooting them, smashes Lan and Moiraine away all in a moment.  I say again, she destroyed MANY ARROWS COMING AT HER FROM SEVERAL DIRECTIONS.  A simple weave of fire could destroy the bolt EASILY, a simple weave of air could clock the bolt EASILY.<br /><br /><b>The end of TSR is maybe three months before Asmo's death. <br />I think we could imagine that Slayer was ok again then.<br /><br />Also as you said he was only wounded and even Fain says that he is still alive.<br />I never thought that Slayer died in the end of TSR and I think also you not really. </b><br /><br />Yes, we could imagine him okay by then, if we even thought about it.  I never thought he was dead.  But if we so okay by the end of Fires of Heaven, WHY didn't we see him in action AFTERWARDS, in the next THREE books?  He's okay enough to take on one of the Forsaken after three months with no problem but then does nothing for three more books?<br /><br />&lt;Tb&gt;he evidences in book 6-8 were mainly that other suspects were ruled out. <br />But there were also clues for Slayer, e.g. what the DO said to Demandred or that taim (apparently a DF) appeared after the death.. &lt;/b&gt;<br /><br />I disagree with your first statement.  It ruled out from some points of view some forsaken, MOST OF WHICH we had never even seen before.  Big deal.  Keep in mind that CYNDANE appeared in book 8.<br /><br />Anyway, I have one other big issue with this theory, and that is how would Slayer know where to be?  Think of what we have seen Slayer doing.<br /><br />He killed the dark sisters in Tear, who were locked in that cell for several weeks.<br /><br />He killed who he thought were Rand and Min sleeping in an Inn room, but they had already moved on.<br /><br />He killed some grey men in the tower who had been SENT THERE already, so their location would be easily known and predictable.<br /><br />All of these killings were in set places where the victim was known to be or expected to be.<br /><br />Asmodean was just wandering around the palace.  Slayer cannot tell from TAR if someone in the waking world is present or where they are moving about.  How would he know to be waiting for Asmodean right behind that door?<br /><br />Etzel, I want you to read my arguments and consider them carefully and seriouslly.  While I do not expect to be able to change your mind, I want you to at least try and respond to them/list reasons why you disagree/give evidence rather than just say &quot;still, I think this.&quot;  It's fine if you still hold your position after reading my arguments and telling me that I am wrong, but tell me why I am wrong and counter my arguments point by point like I am doing for you.  You haven't done a lot of it here, and I feel that you need to do so to respond to this, as your theory is full of holes if you do not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 19:36:41
subject: <b>Just a few questions for Slayer supporters</b>
body:
1)Why would Slayer risk so much by showing up face to fice with Asmo when with his ability to move through TAR, assasin skills and knowledge of the palace could've easily ambushed Asmo and kill him safely with a dagger in his back? As Vercingetorix showed, channelers can act extremely quickly in such situations and I presume that if Asmo had the time to say &quot;You?No!&quot;, he would've also had the time to defend successfully against Slayer.<br /> <br /> 2)Why the murder happened exactly in the same day when Rand took over Caemlyn? If the goal was just to punish the traitor, it could've happened on any day in the two months between the end of Book 4 and Book 5. it's too much of a coincidence IMO. &quot;Graendal did it&quot; theory explains that well, on the other hand.<br /> <br /> I personally believe that Graendal did it. This theory has by far the least number of problems compared to the others and all of them are explained without streching the plausability too far IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 10:49:02
subject: <b>Vercingetorix again</b>
body:
<b> Ignore whether Graendal would be the executioner or not. Do you think Asmodean would be terrified if he ran into one of the Forsaken, yes or no? If no, why ever not? We have never seen Slayer take out an able bodied channeler. Another channeler would be in a better position to take out a channeler, even if he is weakened. Keep in mind that I do not think Asmo's death was ordered at all. </b><br /><br />Asmodean is scared to death. <br />It&#8217;s hard to believe that a Forsaken like Graendal could create such panic and horror in Asmo, rather a killer like Slayer. <br />Do you disagree that Slayer could terrify Asmo? If yes, why?  <br /><br />Surely some other Forsaken could also terrify Asmo but they are ruled out for other reasons.<br /><br />And something on principle, you can&#8217;t only pick up one clues and try to figure the killer with it. You must look who suits all hints.<br /><br />Keep in mind that Slayer shows not so much respect for channelers. He tries to kill Rand, kills several AS, strikes in the WT. <br />Why would he not be able to kill Asmo if he surprises him?<br /><br />I also wonder who do you think killed Asmo, someone must have done it; what happened? It&#8217;s always easier to disagree with something than to find a constructive solution. <br />LoC shows that the murder was most likely ordered by the DO. <br />Why do you think that the murder wasn&#8217;t ordered? Did it happen only by chance in your view?<br /><br />Because in LoC we see that the DO is pleased by Asmo&#8217;s dead. <br />If he did not ordered Asmo&#8217;s death, the Shadow apparently didn&#8217;t care about Asmo or even wanted that he teaches Rand. <br />But then it makes no sense that the DO is so glad about Asmo&#8217;s death, and even indicates that he was responsible for it.<br />On the other hand if the DO wanted Asmo&#8217;s death it is just self-evident that he not waited till someone maybe kills him but directly ordered it. <br /><br /><b> My only point is that you dismissed any one of the forsaken as being given an assignment simply because we never saw a blanket statement to all of them. The Dark One has shown several times that he gives orders to only one Forsaken (having Semirhage send trollocs to the stone, for example). I just was pointing out that you cannot conclude that one specific forsaken was given an order simply because the forsaken as a whole were not. Note again, that I don't think it was ordered anyway. </b><br /><br />That&#8217;s not right. <br /><br />I said that the DO did not give an assignment to kill Asmo to all Forsaken. <br />Thus the DO would have ordered only one Forsaken (if a Forsaken was the killer as some people think). <br />Considering all the clues in the later books and what RJ said, it&#8217;s clear that the only possible Forsaken who could have been ordered is Graendal. <br /><br />But why Graendal? <br />Makes no sense, contrary to the taking of Semirhage for sending the Trollocs as I showed in the theory &#8220;Why Semirhage sent the Shadowspawn to Tear.&#8221; <br />Moreover, that Graendal did it, on order or not, is unlikely for the other reasons I pointed out in my theory.  <br /><br /><b> Why though? He would be terrified if any forsaken ran into him. Also we know specifically that he is frightened by Lanfear from her looking into his dreams. If you cannot concede that any forsaken would terrify him just as much, if not more, than Slayer(which I sitll haven't heard a logical reason why he wouldn't be terrified of them), you MUST concede that Lanfear would. </b><br /><br />Sure Lanfear would terrify him, but she is ruled out for other reasons. <br />Again, you have to see all clues together.<br />If you then compare Graendal with the killer Slayer who likes to terrify people when he suddenly appears before them, Slayer suits better to Asmo&#8217;s panic in my view.  <br /><br /> <b> So you say that the LORD OF THE GRAVE is not the Lord of the Grave then? Why is he called that then?? </b><br /><br />The title &#8220;Lord of the Grave&#8221; was given him by the people because you immediately connect the DO, Blight, SG etc. with death since there is no real life. <br />Also the Shadowspawn, Forsaken etc. were responisible for many wars and thus dead people.<br />Plus, we see the beginning of it in CoT, ghosts appear. <br />Also we know that the DO can normally resurrect the Chosen.<br /><br />But the doesn&#8217;t mean, as you seem to imply, that all people come into a realm of the DO after their death, that he knows about all of them and that the DO controls all the dead, or something like that.<br /><br /><b> So a crossbow bolt is too fast, but a thrown dagger from very short range is not? Yes, he is surprised and would be panicking. But not from a mundane weapon. I feel that you are just dismissing my arguments here without giving any reason why. He has hundreds of years of experience channeling...you'd think he would at least TRY something to defend himself if someone came at him with a crossbow. Take a look at what Lanfear did in TFOH when being attacked on the docks by the aiel. She destroys MANY arrows coming at her from several directions, fries the archers shooting them, smashes Lan and Moiraine away all in a moment. I say again, she destroyed MANY ARROWS COMING AT HER FROM SEVERAL DIRECTIONS. A simple weave of fire could destroy the bolt EASILY, a simple weave of air could clock the bolt EASILY. </b><br /><br />A bolt is normally faster than a thrown dagger, yes, I would say that. <br /><br />You don&#8217;t take Asmo&#8217;s panic very seriously. He is absolutely surprised, terrified and paralysed (&#8220;One step and he stopped&#8221; ). <br />Probably in the next moment he had took saidin (whether it was a channeler who killed him or not), but he was already dead then. <br /><br />It&#8217;s human that you can&#8217;t react fast in such a moment.<br />See e.g. Rand in ACoS, ch.36, Fain manages to slice him, although Rand was already warned that there are enemies in the near and even several AS (e.g. Cadsuane) were present!<br /><br />How do you explain this? <br />Right, there are situations in which you just can&#8217;t act fast enough because of surprise or fear.<br />The same happened with Asmo; sad but true.<br /><br /><b> Yes, we could imagine him okay by then, if we even thought about it. I never thought he was dead. But if we so okay by the end of Fires of Heaven, WHY didn't we see him in action AFTERWARDS, in the next THREE books? He's okay enough to take on one of the Forsaken after three months with no problem but then does nothing for three more books? </b><br /><br />Slayer is mentioned in LoC, ch.14, Egwene glimpses him in TAR (she thinks it&#8217;s Lan). <br />Apparently he is spying a bit. <br />He does the same in WH, ch.10 (he looks like &#8220;Rand&#8217;s uncle&#8221; there). <br />Probably he is also still hunting Fain as Ishy says in WH, ch.13. <br />Maybe if he is bored he hunts some wolves too, &#8220;if  there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure&#8221; (WH, ch.22).<br /><br />Besides, I don&#8217;t see why someone who doesn&#8217;t appear very often in the books after TFoH is less likely the killer.<br />On the contrary, I would say someone like Graendal who has four PoVs since the murder is less likely the killer if she never thinks about this killing, than someone who has only one brief PoV and has enough other assassinations to consider like Slayer.<br /><br /><b> I disagree with your first statement. It ruled out from some points of view some forsaken, MOST OF WHICH we had never even seen before. Big deal. Keep in mind that CYNDANE appeared in book 8. </b><br /><br />And what does Lanfear&#8217;s return show us? <br />That she was resurrected by the DO because she died, probably in Finnland and thus can&#8217;t be the killer. <br /><br /><b> Anyway, I have one other big issue with this theory, and that is how would Slayer know where to be? Think of what we have seen Slayer doing.<br /><br />He killed the dark sisters in Tear, who were locked in that cell for several weeks.<br /><br />He killed who he thought were Rand and Min sleeping in an Inn room, but they had already moved on.<br /><br />He killed some grey men in the tower who had been SENT THERE already, so their location would be easily known and predictable.<br /><br />All of these killings were in set places where the victim was known to be or expected to be.<br /><br />Asmodean was just wandering around the palace. Slayer cannot tell from TAR if someone in the waking world is present or where they are moving about. How would he know to be waiting for Asmodean right behind that door? </b><br /><br />Slayer must be able to find victims or know where they are. <br />Not without mistakes, maybe he needs a rough destination but I believe that has to be one of his special abilities he got for his assassinations.<br />He could not know that Rand &amp; Min had been in the inn, nevertheless he found the exact room where they have been shortly before.<br />Plus, Slayer asks his patron if he should try it again and when he doesn&#8217;t want it, Slayer thinks it&#8217;s a pity. <br />How could he think to be successful in a city like Far Madding if he can&#8217;t find his victims somehow? <br />He also appeared directly before the BA in TSR and behind the Seal thieves in CoT. <br /><br />Besides, why do you think the killer knew that Asmo would enter?<br /><br /><b> Etzel, I want you to read my arguments and consider them carefully and seriouslly. While I do not expect to be able to change your mind, I want you to at least try and respond to them/list reasons why you disagree/give evidence rather than just say &quot;still, I think this.&quot; It's fine if you still hold your position after reading my arguments and telling me that I am wrong, but tell me why I am wrong and counter my arguments point by point like I am doing for you. You haven't done a lot of it here, and I feel that you need to do so to respond to this, as your theory is full of holes if you do not. </b><br /><br />I believe I gave enough good reasons for my view and against the other theories concerning Asmo&#8217;s death. <br />Now I&#8217;m curious what you will make of it and especially who you think killed Asmodean, how and why.  <br /><br />So far, together with the arguments on the blackboard of Columbo&#8217;s theory, it&#8217;s certainly one of the best discussions I ever took part in here. That&#8217;s joyful!<br />


created: 2004-01-05 10:57:25
subject: <b>not so sure</b>
body:
The info is well laid out, but I am not convinced.  I agree with some of the others. I don't think Asmo would be terrified by anyone form this age.  Yes, Slayer is an assasin created by the DO, but Asmo has hunreds of years of channeling experience.  While a crossbow bolt is faster than a thrown arrow, the difference is not much.  What are we talking about,  a difference of .1 seconds maybe?  If he can think enough to form words, he can think enough to channel at a physical object.  Remember, he can channel instantly, and it is second nature to him.  I think he is scared because he senses that the person facing him is about to channel bale fire.  Just as Bel'al figure it out when Morraine does it to him.<br /><br />I don't have the books with me, but are any other women channelers (WO's) there besides Avi?  If there are, and they might be channelling, she might not remark on sensing someone else channeling.<br /><br />I think having Graendal as the killer is the surprise.  Yes, she usually acts behind the scenes.  This is why her being there is such a surprise for Asmo.  Any forsaken would likely kill him for his betrayal.  Lanfear made sure they knew about it.  I think Graendal was hanging out to gather information.  Maybe she heard Asmo talking to Mat and Avi from a window and moved in for the kill.<br /><br />I am not really convinced either way, and I doubt I ever will be.  I guess that is the fun. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 12:12:13
subject: <b>Concerning woman channelers</b>
body:
Caemlyn was full of woman channelers at the time of the murder. And it was right after a battle, with lots of cleaning up to do, so Aviendha could easily have dismissed a woman channeling inside the castle as nothing out of the ordinary.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 13:01:32
subject: <b>In fact</b>
body:
Actually the only woman channeler around by the time of the murder was Aviendha and she was just resurrected in a way by that time. There were no Wise One and no Aes Sedai(at least with Rand forces).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 19:41:51
subject: <b>I think the DO is literally the Lord of the Grave</b>
body:
Ishy also refers to the DO's powers over the dead. The BA and Forsaken also say only the DO can make use of the dead.<br /><br />In TEOTW Ch 51, Kari al'Thor calls the DO the Lord of the GRave and the Father of Lies. She was not an illusion as Nynaeve and Egwene were, since Rand could not dispell her. She also implied that the DO had trapped her with lies. Rand uses balefire on the Myrddraal to save her.<br /><br />An interesting scene. If he isn't the Lord of the Grave, then are his other titles empty too?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 08:57:49
subject: <b>Still not convinced..</b>
body:
I just don't buy that any non-channeller from this age could scare someone like Asmo, who's been killing non-channellers for decades, if not centuries. What do Slayers abilities amount to after all? He can go in and out TAR and he's a fairly decent warrior. He has only attempted to kill incapacitated channelers, and there is no evidence for your idea that he might be able to track people in TAR. NO WAY that these abilities scare a forsaken. <br /><br />I still think it's either Graendal or Lanfear, Graendal because she's the only one of those with the abilities to commit the murder to show knowledge of it, and Lanfear because it would make a very good plot device.


created: 2004-01-08 07:55:02
subject: <b>The Finn's wishes</b>
body:
Etzel-<br /><br />I think you have put together a great theory.  Like you said, between this one and Columbo's we are having a discussion unlike any before.  However, I don't think I have seen you truly respond to this question:  How do you dismiss the possibility of Lanfear being facilitated by her Finn wishes to kill Asmo?<br /><br />Lanfear could theoretically have asked for these three things:<br />1. I want to leave Finnland and go back to Westlands.<br />2. I want to be back right after I came here.<br />3. I want to kill Asmo, and have him know it's me who killed him.<br /><br />Please refute this.  Right now, based on this logic and little else, I think Lanfear did it.  I do think you did a great job in dismissing Graendal.  However, with this question still in my mind I am unable to lend adherence to your arguement.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 10:46:54
subject: <b>Why Lanfear didn't wish</b>
body:
<b> How do you dismiss the possibility of Lanfear being facilitated by her Finn wishes to kill Asmo?<br /><br />Lanfear could theoretically have asked for these three things:<br />1. I want to leave Finnland and go back to Westlands.<br />2. I want to be back right after I came here.<br />3. I want to kill Asmo, and have him know it's me who killed him.<br /><br />Please refute this. Right now, based on this logic and little else, I think Lanfear did it. I do think you did a great job in dismissing Graendal. However, with this question still in my mind I am unable to lend adherence to your arguement. </b><br /><br />To Soulblinder,<br /><br />I don't think that the Eelfinn granted Lanfear such wishes.<br />We know that Lanfear &amp; Moiraine entered the realm of the Eelfinn at the same time through the same doorway which was destroyed.<br /><br />So the Eelfinn knew that they were responsible for the destruction, therefore probably already angry and surely not in the mood to grant them any wishes.<br /><br />This is supported by Cyndane's statement in WH that Alivia &quot;was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her.&quot; <br />When Mat went through this doorway he never met any Aelfinn, only Eelfinn.<br /><br />That shows that Lanfear not wished and then left the realm of the Eelfinn but something else happened in which both Finn races were involved.<br /><br />Cyndane says she was held and that indicates that she was a prisoner, certainly for some time. <br /><br />We know that the Finn can somehow consume human's sensations, maybe this was one reason to imprison her. <br />The same happened to Moiraine who most people think is still in Finnland and will be rescued by Thom; she also could not wish a return to Randland, why Lanfear then?<br /><br />Cyndane's thought in WH also indicates that she was Lanfear before the Finn held her, but either in or after her capture something happened to her and so she got a new body and her OP strength was reduced.<br />Most likely Lanfear was killed or died in another way. <br />Then the DO put her soul into a new body, named her Cyndane (&quot;Last Chance&quot; ) and gave her to Moridin who used his mind-trap on her (that's also what Demandred thinks in WH).<br /><br />Finally, if you read my theory &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot; you will find out that I believe that you can't wish everything you want and the Eelfinn won't grant everything. There are certain rules. <br />Therefore I already think that the Eelfinn had not granted your third and probably not the second wish you suggest (if you say that Lanfear wishes to travel back in time).


created: 2004-01-09 00:32:40
subject: <b>Rebuttal</b>
body:
Etzel-<br /><br />I appreciate your response (it seems I might need to prove myself a little before I can get some of the other people to respond to me).  I want to refute a few points you made.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>So the Eelfinn knew that they were responsible for the destruction, therefore probably already angry and surely not in the mood to grant them any wishes.</b></font><br />The mood of the Eelfinn doesn't really factor in here.  Unless the destruction of the door itself invalidates the treaty (possible, but no proof either way), then as long as she holds to the treaty she will be okay.  However, they may ask for a higher price.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>This is supported by Cyndane's statement in WH that Alivia &quot;was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her.&quot; </b></font><br />Cyndane says they &quot;held&quot; her. You have stated that you believe Cyndane is Lanfear recycled. Based on what we know of her personality, she would probably be mad enough to mention that they had killed her.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>When Mat went through this doorway he never met any Aelfinn, only Eelfinn.</b></font><br />I don't remember this part very well (been a year since my last re-read), but does Mat remember what happens between when he asks for his wishes and he wakes up after almost dying?  This could be an important question (or I could be up in the night!).<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>That shows that Lanfear not wished and then left the realm of the Eelfinn but something else happened in which both Finn races were involved.</b></font><br />It is possible by that fact that what you say happened, but it is just as possible that she was held by them and then released in time to kill Asmo.  See next comment for reasoning.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Cyndane says she was held and that indicates that she was a prisoner, certainly for some time.</b></font> <br />The issue here is the rate at which time flows.  We know that there are other planes where time flows differently, i.e. Portal Stone Worlds, where time can flow either faster or slower; TAR, where time can flow both faster and slower, alternately.  In fact, if you hold with the Olver/Gaidal Cain(sp?) theory, there can be a difference of years involved.  If time flows in the Finn worlds similarly to how it flows in TAR(no proof either way) then the idea that Lanfear was held for some time and then released in time to kill Asmo becomes not only plausible, but highly believable.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>We know that the Finn can somehow consume human's sensations, maybe this was one reason to imprison her. <br />The same happened to Moiraine who most people think is still in Finnland and will be rescued by Thom; she also could not wish a return to Randland, why Lanfear then?</b></font><br />What I have an issue with here is the matter of the price.  Lanfear is very vain.  Her extreme ability with the OP is something she believes sets her high above others. That could be why Cyndane's power is lower.  However, what Moiraine holds most dear at this point is time.  Lanfear having been released while Moiraine was not could be attributed to that. <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Cyndane's thought in WH also indicates that she was Lanfear before the Finn held her, but either in or after her capture something happened to her and so she got a new body and her OP strength was reduced.</b></font><br />This I think is very telling.  We know of 3 other FS having died and been put in new bodies.  All of them were trusted enough to be let out on their own to do their assigned tasks.  There was no reason to lower their power levels.  Cyndane, however, has been mindtrapped.  There is even less of a reason to lower her power level.  Regardless of how much the DO thinks he can trust her, he knows she can be stopped at a moments notice, wherever she is.  All lowering her power would do is make it more likely she would die by someone else's hand, spoiling whatever mission she was on.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Most likely Lanfear was killed or died in another way.  Then the DO put her soul into a new body, named her Cyndane (&quot;Last Chance&quot; ) and gave her to Moridin who used his mind-trap on her (that's also what Demandred thinks in WH).</b></font><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Finally, if you read my theory &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot; you will find out that I believe that you can't wish everything you want and the Eelfinn won't grant everything. There are certain rules.</b></font> <br /><font size="-1"><b>Therefore I already think that the Eelfinn had not granted your third and probably not the second wish you suggest (if you say that Lanfear wishes to travel back in time). </b></font><br />It is possible that the third wish is untenable.  However, I think I have shown above that the first two are. <br /><br />By the way, I have read your &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot; theory, both once before and again just before I wrote this.  Once again, an excellent theory.  I would like to pull two comments from it:<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Besides that you can&#8217;t wish everything what you want, you also can&#8217;t wish how you want.</b></font><br /><font size="-1"><b>They only grant wishes according to their terms and if they get an adequate price.</b></font><br />I think these tie in here.  For them, an adequate price might be something that means a lot to you.  Strength for Lanfear, time for Moiraine, Mat's life.  Does taking Mat's life give them anything?  No, but it is a price he must pay.  Does taking Lanfear's strength do anything for them?  Not unless they can give it away, but it is still a harsh price for her.  Perhaps Moiraine said, &quot;I want to get out of here in time to help Rand.&quot;  They could let her out just in time to BF the last FS just before they kill Rand at TG.  As you said, according to their terms and if they get an adequate price.<br /><br />Sorry for such a long post, but I am truly enjoying this discourse.  Please respond again with your input.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 07:29:54
subject: <b>Re-rebuttal to Soulblinder</b>
body:
<b> I appreciate your response (it seems I might need to prove myself a little before I can get some of the other people to respond to me). I want to refute a few points you made. </b><br /><br />Just pick on them long enough and they will respond. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> The mood of the Eelfinn doesn't really factor in here. Unless the destruction of the door itself invalidates the treaty (possible, but no proof either way), then as long as she holds to the treaty she will be okay. However, they may ask for a higher price. </b><br /><br />I think Lanfear &amp; Moiraine broke some rules of the treaty by their unorthodox entering of Finnland.<br /><br />Moreover, I think I said it on the blackboard of &quot;The Homicide Relaoded &quot; (a debate between three blackboards is quite confusing), the two were probably not in a condition to wish anything after their fight and probably burned out; thus they were captured by the Finn. <br /><br /><b> Cyndane says they &quot;held&quot; her. You have stated that you believe Cyndane is Lanfear recycled. Based on what we know of her personality, she would probably be mad enough to mention that they had killed her. </b><br /><br />Well , I'm not sure if the Finn killed her (after all Moiraine was almost certainly also not killed).<br />Another idea would be that Lanfear commited suicide since she knew that the DO will bring her back (you said she is mad enough...)<br /><br />My pet theory is of course (and probably many people will scream now... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) that Slayer was ordered to kill Lanfear in Finnland, so that her soul is free again to become resurrected. <br />Apparently Slayer can enter Finnland via the Tower of Ghenjei. <br /> <br /><b> I don't remember this part very well (been a year since my last re-read), but does Mat remember what happens between when he asks for his wishes and he wakes up after almost dying? This could be an important question (or I could be up in the night!). </b><br /><br />Mat never says that he was held by both Finn races, and I think it's very unlikely. The Eelfinn wanted to kill him. And after the Eelfinn say that the price is paid, Mat immediately feels the rope around his throat.<br /><br /><b> It is possible by that fact that what you say happened, but it is just as possible that she was held by them and then released in time to kill Asmo. See next comment for reasoning. </b><br /><br />Hmm, let's see.<br /><br /><b> The issue here is the rate at which time flows. We know that there are other planes where time flows differently, i.e. Portal Stone Worlds, where time can flow either faster or slower; TAR, where time can flow both faster and slower, alternately. In fact, if you hold with the Olver/Gaidal Cain(sp?) theory, there can be a difference of years involved. If time flows in the Finn worlds similarly to how it flows in TAR(no proof either way) then the idea that Lanfear was held for some time and then released in time to kill Asmo becomes not only plausible, but highly believable. </b><br /><br />I never got the impression that time flows different between Rand- and Finnland. <br />In TSR when Rand, Mat &amp; Moiraine enter Finnland, there was apparently no time difference between their trip and the real world.<br />So the difference can't be such big.<br /><br />But since I believe Lanfear was a prisoner until her death it doesn't really matter because the resurrection takes some time.<br /><br /><b> What I have an issue with here is the matter of the price. Lanfear is very vain. Her extreme ability with the OP is something she believes sets her high above others. That could be why Cyndane's power is lower. However, what Moiraine holds most dear at this point is time. Lanfear having been released while Moiraine was not could be attributed to that. </b><br /><br />I don't share your opinion. <br />Concerning to what we know from the books I believe it's more likely that the two women were captured by the Finn, Lanfear died later, was resurrected in the way we know and therefore can't be the killer.<br />That's an easier and so better explanation than any far-fetched contructs with wishes &amp; prices.   <br /><br /><b> This I think is very telling. We know of 3 other FS having died and been put in new bodies. All of them were trusted enough to be let out on their own to do their assigned tasks. There was no reason to lower their power levels. Cyndane, however, has been mindtrapped. There is even less of a reason to lower her power level. Regardless of how much the DO thinks he can trust her, he knows she can be stopped at a moments notice, wherever she is. All lowering her power would do is make it more likely she would die by someone else's hand, spoiling whatever mission she was on. </b><br /><br />I don't think that the Shadow lowered Cyndane's power on purpose.<br />I believe Lanfear burned out and later, when she was Cyndane (the OP ability is apparently connected to the soul) this was healed but not as perfect as it could have been.<br /><br /><b> I think these tie in here. For them, an adequate price might be something that means a lot to you. Strength for Lanfear, time for Moiraine, Mat's life. Does taking Mat's life give them anything? No, but it is a price he must pay. Does taking Lanfear's strength do anything for them? Not unless they can give it away, but it is still a harsh price for her. Perhaps Moiraine said, &quot;I want to get out of here in time to help Rand.&quot; They could let her out just in time to BF the last FS just before they kill Rand at TG. As you said, according to their terms and if they get an adequate price. </b><br /><br />Since I believe the Finn can't change your body so that you get more OP strength, of course they also can't reduce the OP strength from someone. <br />How should the Finn achieve that? They are not allmighty. <br /><br /><b> Sorry for such a long post, but I am truly enjoying this discourse. Please respond again with your input. </b><br /> <br />I like it, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-10 01:29:01
subject: <b>Re-Re-Rebuttal to Etzel OR The Battle of Re</b>
body:
Etzel-<br /><br />I think you made some very valid points here.  Some of them I still disagree with, but I think some of them could have happened in my view of events.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Well , I'm not sure if the Finn killed her (after all Moiraine was almost certainly also not killed).<br />Another idea would be that Lanfear commited suicide since she knew that the DO will bring her back (you said she is mad enough...)</b></font><br />Once again, just based on what we know of Lanfear's personality, I think it would take an extremely long time before she would get to this point.  Unless there was some time dilation here (which you don't support) I doubt this would have happened in time for her to be back as Cyndane when we first see her.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>My pet theory is of course (and probably many people will scream now... ) that Slayer was ordered to kill Lanfear in Finnland, so that her soul is free again to become resurrected. Apparently Slayer can enter Finnland via the Tower of Ghenjei. </b></font><br />I have my doubts about Slayer's ability to enter the ToG. Read the theory &quot;Fairy lore, the Tower, and Snakes/Foxes&quot; by r4j.  In it, he provides a legend from our world about the Alfheim, also called the Elphame.  Sound familiar?<br /><br />Anyway, in it he talks about one way to enter the land of the fairy realm- to walk around a hill that contains the entrance 3 times.  IIRC, when Perrin is chasing Slayer through TAR, Slayer approaches the ToG and then disappears.  Perrin approaches, walks around it twice, then he is stopped (I know by Birgitte, but I think by Hopper also).  Ever since I read this theory I've thought that Slayer led Perrin here to try to trap him, and that he never entered the tower at all.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I never got the impression that time flows different between Rand- and Finnland. </b></font><br />Referring back to the same theory as above, it would all depend on how literal RJ was with this particular myth.  Being as, if all the r4j says is true, most of the legend is followed closely, I think the possibility of at least some time difference is likely.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Concerning to what we know from the books I believe it's more likely that the two women were captured by the Finn, Lanfear died later, was resurrected in the way we know and therefore can't be the killer. That's an easier and so better explanation than any far-fetched contructs with wishes &amp; prices. </b></font><br />I hate to have to shoot down anything you say on a technicality (because it is thoughtful, well stated, and informed), but if easier explanations were the norm in this series, Elayne and Nyn wouldn't have forgotten where the Bowl was and found it immediately, Taim would be Demandred, and RJ would have put in a line like, &quot;(killer's name here) looked down at the smoking body and smiled.&quot;<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I don't think that the Shadow lowered Cyndane's power on purpose. I believe Lanfear burned out and later, when she was Cyndane (the OP ability is apparently connected to the soul) this was healed but not as perfect as it could have been.</b></font><br />IIRC, the portal stones have a symbol on them resembling the signs for the snakes/foxes.  Since the AOL AS couldn't remember who made the portal stones, and they were old in their time, knowledge must have been lost between when they were made and the AOL.  As we have seen with traveling, something thought lost can be found again (and if lost for long enough people may think it impossible).  This shows that it is possible humans have had congress with the Finn for ages, and possibly multiple turnings of the wheel.  Based on this I think the Finn may have something (whether ter'angreal or their own power) that can restore channelers after severing, and possibly something that can lower their ability level.<br /><br />Looking forward to seeing your response.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-10 05:15:18
subject: <b>The Battle continues...</b>
body:
<b> Once again, just based on what we know of Lanfear's personality, I think it would take an extremely long time before she would get to this point. Unless there was some time dilation here (which you don't support) I doubt this would have happened in time for her to be back as Cyndane when we first see her. </b><br /><br />I only wanted to show several possibilities.<br /><br />Of course it's quite likely that the Finn killed Lanfear.<br /><br />Read Matrimony Cauthon's theory &quot;The Finn-Skin connection&quot;. <br />It's very good.<br /><br />We know the Finn kill humans, they wear human skin-clothes (and maybe eat them, too? I remember a hungy expression on a Finn's face when Mat goes there). <br />Birgitte even says the Finn are dangerous for humankind at one point (although they are not evil like the Shadow).<br /><br />Plus, Lanfear is surely not a very humble prisoner, maybe tried to flee or did something else what demanded her death (I think we can at least conlude that from her personality.)<br /><br /><b> I have my doubts about Slayer's ability to enter the ToG. Read the theory &quot;Fairy lore, the Tower, and Snakes/Foxes&quot; by r4j. In it, he provides a legend from our world about the Alfheim, also called the Elphame. Sound familiar?<br /><br />Anyway, in it he talks about one way to enter the land of the fairy realm- to walk around a hill that contains the entrance 3 times. IIRC, when Perrin is chasing Slayer through TAR, Slayer approaches the ToG and then disappears. Perrin approaches, walks around it twice, then he is stopped (I know by Birgitte, but I think by Hopper also). Ever since I read this theory I've thought that Slayer led Perrin here to try to trap him, and that he never entered the tower at all. </b><br /><br />Read the theory it's good.<br /><br />But if it's really such easy to enter the Tower, we should have no doubt that Slayer can enter it, too. <br />And Birgitte states that the Tower <i> is </i> a doorway to Finnland.<br /><br />Anyway, as I said it's just a &quot;pet theory&quot;. I'm also not so sure if it's right.<br /><br /><b> Referring back to the same theory as above, it would all depend on how literal RJ was with this particular myth. Being as, if all the r4j says is true, most of the legend is followed closely, I think the possibility of at least some time difference is likely. </b><br /><br />Maybe, but normally RJ doesn't follow legends too closely but only take some parts or changes everything a bit.<br /><br /><b> I hate to have to shoot down anything you say on a technicality (because it is thoughtful, well stated, and informed), but if easier explanations were the norm in this series, Elayne and Nyn wouldn't have forgotten where the Bowl was and found it immediately, Taim would be Demandred, and RJ would have put in a line like, &quot;(killer's name here) looked down at the smoking body and smiled.&quot; </b><br /><br />My Slayer theory is also not such easy to figure. <br />But if you have connected all points, the answer is quite obvious.<br />With the wishes &amp; prices we only have to speculate.<br /><br />And as said in &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot;, wishes like they were suggested for Lanfear (e.g. &quot;I want to be able to kill Asmo now&quot; etc. ) are contrary to the rules RJ showed when Mat wished from the Eelfinn. <br /><br /><b> IIRC, the portal stones have a symbol on them resembling the signs for the snakes/foxes. Since the AOL AS couldn't remember who made the portal stones, and they were old in their time, knowledge must have been lost between when they were made and the AOL. As we have seen with traveling, something thought lost can be found again (and if lost for long enough people may think it impossible). This shows that it is possible humans have had congress with the Finn for ages, and possibly multiple turnings of the wheel. Based on this I think the Finn may have something (whether ter'angreal or their own power) that can restore channelers after severing, and possibly something that can lower their ability level. </b><br /><br />Well, we never saw something like that. <br />I don't think that the Eelfinn have such powers or such a ter'angreal. <br />For example they also can't make Mat immune against the OP but have to give him a medaillon.<br /><br />Would be a nice question for RJ, though. <br />And I'd like to ask him about the Finn powers in general.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-01-10 17:34:42
subject: <b>You fight well, Sir Knight!</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Read Matrimony Cauthon's theory &quot;The Finn-Skin connection&quot;. It's very good.</b></font><br />I have read it, and I agree it is very good.  Matrimony seems (seemed?) to do good work.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Plus, Lanfear is surely not a very humble prisoner, maybe tried to flee or did something else what demanded her death (I think we can at least conlude that from her personality.)</b></font><br />I have to admit this is a possility.  She's a fiesty one, that Lanfear!<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>But if it's really such easy to enter the Tower, we should have no doubt that Slayer can enter it, too. And Birgitte states that the Tower is a doorway to Finnland.</b></font><br />I agree it does seem very easy, and that Slayer probably has the ability to enter it.  I just don't think he did.  Just one of &quot;my&quot; pet theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>And as said in &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot;, wishes like they were suggested for Lanfear (e.g. &quot;I want to be able to kill Asmo now&quot; etc. ) are contrary to the rules RJ showed when Mat wished from the Eelfinn. </b></font><br />Etzel, you did marvelously on that theory.  However, while I agree with you entirely on how you must phrase your wishes (requests), I don't think we have enough information to make too many assumptions about what they can and can't do.  Throughout the first few books, and to a smaller extent now, we have seen many weaves, abilities, and ter'angreal that seem to break the laws of reality.  I think there are too many variables on what type of ter'angreal they may have at their disposal to be sure.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Well, we never saw something like that.</b></font><br />That is my mistake.  I thought I recalled that from one of Rand's POVs regarding the portal stones in TGH. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>For example they also can't make Mat immune against the OP but have to give him a medaillon.</b></font><br />This is just what I was talking about above with the ter'angreal.  Prior to this we had no idea that such a thing could even exist.  They may have other ter'angreal that would baffle us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-12 19:42:20
subject: <b>Neither pro-slayer or pro-graendal camps.</b>
body:
I truly enjoyed your theory.  I also think you wrote it in a way that explains your points in a logical manner.  I do not agree with the pro-slayer or pro-graendal camps.  I feel the only person that could inspire fear in one of the chosen/forsaken (other than Shaidar Haran) would be Moridin/Ishamael.  I do not have all of my books handy; also I do not believe that RJ was truthful when he said we have all the information up to the point of Asmodean&#8217;s demise to know who killed him.  There are some references that I can point to but I&#8217;ll re-read and submit a legitimate theory.  From the top of my head in the very first book, the first thing we read is about Ishy making sure LT knew what he did and who caused it.  Who is the most powerful Forsaken? Answer Ishamael/Mordin.  Ishamael would let Asmodean know who it was that killed him, also he would have used the TP to do the deed.  &#8220;You? No!&#8221;  You referring to Ishamael, No referring to being shielded and then balefired.


created: 2004-01-12 22:00:04
subject: <b>Dear Etzel,</b>
body:
Just wanted to say thanks for writing this theory.  It's always fun having these little debates, isn't it?  Keeps things fresh around this site.<br /><br />Reading some of the comments you got makes me laugh, you wonder if some are reading the same series?<br /><br />As your aware, I'm going to stick with Lanfear.  Will we eventually find out who killed Asmo?  I hope we do!<br /><br />Thanks for the entertainment Etzel and keep writing theories.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 03:15:54
subject: <b>Indeed, Columbo</b>
body:
It was not only fun and entertaining but I think some new, good points were made by almost everyone.<br /><br />Good work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-05 22:42:08
subject: <b>The true killer</b>
body:
I like this, but i know for fact that it was Graedal bc during an online chat some guy brings it up and RJ canfirms that it was indeed her. What i want to know is why? (besides he was a traitor)and i will try to get a refernece on the site where i saw that quote<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 13:49:09
subject: <b>You get around....</b>
body:
Agian I have to remind you that what you heard is not valid.  RJ has never revealed Asmodean's killer.<br /><br />Don't waste your time looking for a something that doesn't exist.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-01 16:05:22
subject: <b>Not a chance</b>
body:
First of all, Slayer wasn't capable of killing a lousy schizophreniac man in a tiny Whitecloak camp in the middle of nowhere, but he easily entered the Royal Palace of Andor, amidst a horde of Aiel and Caemlyners, not to mention many channelers including the Dragon Reborn, and easily slaughter one of the Forsaken ?<br /><br />Not to mention that even Padan Fain only views him as a problem to be dealt with later, in other words of minor consequence, and that the Myrddral is only worried of what he would do to him. Very smart thought, seen as how the Myrddral know how they, themselves punish failing Trollocs... On the other hand, Asmodean, one of the thirteen most powerful channelers of the Age of Legends ( albeit slightly shielded ) trembles with fear at the sight of him ???<br /><br />Not to mention that by the time Asmodean had said &quot; you ? no ! &quot;, he could have channeled Slayer's eyes out of their orbits, juggled with them a bit and decapitated the worthless assassin. ( You'll notice that Sayer hasn't killed anything more dangerous than shielded women, unarmed and locked in a room ? ).<br /><br />Even discarding all that, when was the last time Slayer hid a corpse ?<br /><br />As for being intuitively obvious, I must say that when I first read the chapter, I thought, in that order : Lanfear, Sammael, Lan ( don't ask ), Ishamael and Graendal. First time I though of Slayer being involved was when I read the FAQ, and immediately dismissed him.<br /><br />Besides, wouldn't Slayer still be after Fain ? When we meet him again in Far Madding, it is reasonable that he was still hunting Fain, but wanted a break and went to kill his dear nephew, isn't it ?<br /><br />Therefore, the day I accept Slayer to be Asmodean's murderer will be the day I accept Basel Gill might be Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 15:32:52
subject: <b>Another Thing</b>
body:
Two other facts suggest that the killer was not one of the Forsaken.  In the beginning of LoC the DO mentioned that Asmo died because of his weakness, later in ACoS he told Mogh that &quot;THE CHOSEN ARE ALWAYS THE STRONGEST&quot;, pb 528, if Asmo was killed by another forsaken there would be no shame, such killings are promoted by the DO, but if his situition was similar to that of Mogh then it suggests that other Forsaken were not involved.<br /><br />Asmo also thought about looking forward to the death of the other Forsaken at the hands of Rand right before he died, his suprise would be best explained by the fact that he encountered someone that he was not thinking about but is still favored by the DO, someone like slayer.


created: 2004-01-02 10:44:49
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I have thought it was Lanfear all along and agree with every point you made. THe only item I can't get around is why she was placed into a new body with less ability. Was she punished for Asmo's death or for balefiring him beyond return?


created: 2004-01-02 11:17:51
subject: <b>Sorry, but no way.</b>
body:
As I showed in the theory &quot;Slayer vs. Graendal&quot; the killer was Slayer.<br /><br />On the theory's blackboard I pointed out that RJ said he thinks that the killer should be obvious.<br />He also said that we can figure the killer with clues from the first 5 books but only one fan managed it. <br />That means it's in fact not such obvious.<br /><br />At the time of Asmo's death Lanfear was not obvious because we thought she was dead or at least imprisoned in Finnland like Moiraine.<br />And as we learn in WH she was indeed held by the Finn.<br />Therefore it's actually impossible that Lanfear was the killer.<br /><br />It was Slayer. <br />We knew that he is the Shadow's dangerous assassin, knows the Forsaken, can enter and leave TAR in the flesh and thus can go everywhere he wants. <br />We could figure that he killed the BA in Tear &amp; the Gray Man and that the same killer was responsible for Asmo's death.<br />He has a motive, the ability and is quite obvious (from RJ's POV at least) if you remember &amp; connect all these points. <br /><br />The only thing about Slayer we did not know back in TFoH was, why he can enter TAR in the flesh since he didn't seem to be a channeler. <br />But we could at least guess that he got the ability from the DO, maybe became some kind of Shadowspawn with this ability or has a ter'angreal to achieve that. <br /><br />Then in WH RJ made it quite plain for everyone that Slayer was the killer in his POV. <br /><br />


created: 2004-01-02 11:26:19
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
When you said something like 'Have you caught on yet?' just after the long passage, I immediately thought 'Lanfear'! <br /><br />The only problem I see is if Lanfear was free of the finns in time to kill Asmo, but then I haven't read those particular books for a while.<br /><br />Nice theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic,Arial"><font color="#FF0000">F</font><font color="#FF1500">l</font><font color="#FF2B00">i</font><font color="#FF4000">p</font><font color="#FF5500">p</font><font color="#FF6B00">i</font><font color="#FF8000">t</font><font color="#FF8000"> </font><font color="#FF9200">~</font><font color="#FFA400"> </font><font color="#FFB600">F</font><font color="#FFC900">l</font><font color="#FFDB00">i</font><font color="#FFED00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">i</font><font color="#DBFF00">t</font><font color="#B6FF00"> </font><font color="#92FF00">~</font><font color="#6DFF00"> </font><font color="#49FF00">F</font><font color="#24FF00">l</font><font color="#00FF00">i</font><font color="#00FF00">p</font><font color="#01DB24">p</font><font color="#00B649">i</font><font color="#00926D">t</font><font color="#006D92"> </font><font color="#0049B6">~</font><font color="#0024DB"> </font><font color="#0000FF">F</font><font color="#0000FF">l</font><font color="#2400FF">i</font><font color="#4900FF">p</font><font color="#6D00FF">p</font><font color="#9200FF">i</font><font color="#B600FF">t</font><font color="#DB00FF"> </font><font color="#FF00FF">~</font><font color="#FF00FF"> </font><font color="#ED00ED">F</font><font color="#DA01DA">l</font><font color="#C800C8">i</font><font color="#B600B6">p</font><font color="#A400A4">p</font><font color="#910091">i</font><font color="#7F007F">t</font></font><br /><font face="Century Gothic,Arial">History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it. ~ <i>Winston Churchill</i></font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 11:34:12
subject: <b>Missing someimpotant stuff, yes I think so</b>
body:
This really opens more questions than it give answers:<br /><br />-how did she know Where Asmo was. <br />-How did Asmo recognice Lanfear, it might be  that she had the look of cyndane(MoM?).-Did she become Cyndane later? and how was she captured later then, it wasnt an easy job for sure(minor complaint)<br />-How did the DO learn about Asmos death<br />- The motive really is turned down with the quote that Lanfear only kill if necesarry(though this quote might not be taken to seriously), This is no reason to kill, and to torture him would by far be the greatest option(and then let him continue his job, another thing supports this, Lanfear is aware of Asmos fear of pain, and could certainly<br /><br /><br />Your arguents answer very good to the casual reader qoute,(It was in fact my very first conclusion, and later on, I couldnt think of any other options) but in some ways, it seems way to likely, I mean for a guy like Robert Jordan if this is the definite truth, it pretty much sucks(not the killer but the motive). This is rather a critic of the book than of you're theory, or fact, maybe this theory really belongs as a faq.<br />another thing that supports this is the knowledge the DO had of the incident, If she was already mindtaped, she was surely acting for the DO, and if she was mindtrapped later, she certainly told Morridin. I must have underestimated the author *sob*. I mean, no real complot theory, just the stupid obvious (it really is obvious and stupid)<br />stupid is referring to the motive<br />It would have been a hell of a lot cooler if she did it for morridin, or if she did it simply to not be discovered by rand (and in some ways it really seems she did!)-though your argumentation is great_ it someone lacks what really mathers<br /><br />Sorry about this really messy post, I will later on correct it, as it was written way to fast, and Im really sorry that such an important thing as this didnt get anything better from me at this time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 12:37:00
subject: <b>You can't disregard certain pieces of evidense.</b>
body:
Etzel, go back and read RJ's qoute, its an important clue.  Then reread the passage in question and you'll find it hard to believe it was anyone except Lanfear.  Slayer is not even close.  How is he intuutivley obvious? Etzel Lanfear was not dead either and we know that from her POV in WH.<br /><br />CYNDANE = Last Chance!<br /><br />For all we know she left the Finns alive, killed Asmodean for his betrayal and the reported to the DO.  Who then reduced her abilities and standing for her disobediance.  <br /><br />equals = new body and Last Chance as Cyndane represents as well as the fact that She gave the news to the DO of Asmodean's death.<br /><br />These question don't yet have answers.  What matters is that as RJ said it should be &quot;intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer&quot; Go back and read the definition and then read the passage preceading Asmodean's death.<br /><br />Some things become Obvious after we stop complicating them.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 13:02:24
subject: <b>Modesty?</b>
body:
What was with the arrogant introduction to this theory?  Just spit out the theory already.  Thanks,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 13:26:09
subject: <b>I have another thought about inuitively obvious</b>
body:
Don&#180;t forget, Robert Jordan wrote the books, he knows what happened, he knows where to look for the clues, and THINKS it should be intuitively obvious for a casual reader. What is intuitively obvious to him, probably ain&#180;t intuitively obvious to us.<br /><br />But of course, it still could be Lanfear who killed Asmodean. We know that time in TAR sometimes goes faster, sometimes slower, compared to the real world. If the time in Finnland went much faster compared to time in the real world, perhaps Lanfear was out in time to have a chance to kill Asmodean.<br /><br />When Mat was entering Eelfinns world, he &quot;wished&quot; three times and was hung up in a three, Avendesora. That took about seven days in the real world.<br />And sometimes time must go slower i guess, for balance, and perhaps when Lanfear was held in there. Maybe Lanfear was held by Aelfinn and Eelfinn for two-three days, and when she escaped, it only had passed a couple of hours in the real world.


created: 2004-01-02 13:34:49
subject: <b>Arrogant?</b>
body:
Wasn't my intent.  I was intention was to get a laugh.  Spice it up around here.  I respect the views of my fellow WOT fans and thats why I spend the time and effort to post.<br /><br />Sorry if it comes off the wrong way.<br /><br />By the way, what did you think of the theory?<br /><br /><br />Something I failed to add earlier.  At the time of the murder, with the info from the books leading up to the murder, how could you suggest that Slayer was intuitively obvious?  You can't.  My theory relise on RJ's qoute and writing style, patterns, habits etc.  <br /><br />Someone mentioned above that Lanfear doesn't kill without reason.  How then do you explain what heppened at Tear?  I've shown motive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 13:43:58
subject: <b>This is BY FAR the best whodunnit theory i've seen so far</b>
body:
Great way of breaking down the situation and showing plenty of evidence.  You've made a believer out of me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br />On the Slayer theory guy:  Slayer is NOT an extremely revered person by shadowsworn.  When the whitecloaks were in Emond's Field, Fain didn't know who he was, only that he worked for the DO.  There's no reason to assume Asmo could recognize Slayer.<br />On the other Forsaken (Graendel/Sammael):  There were male and female channelers in Caemlyn when Asmo was killed.  That means that if a forsaken killed Asmo then they would have to be using the TP to either get in and out or to weave the mask of mirrors (in which case they would have dropped the weave to let Asmo see who it was, so not likely).  All of the Forsaken, with the exception of Ishy, are afraid of the TP.  However, RJ has shown Lanfear to have a personality that might have her using the TP.  Maybe Lanfear killed herself by drawing too much of the TP... she doesn't have very good self-control...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 14:17:17
subject: <b>Lanfear&gt;Slayer</b>
body:
I've always thought it was Lanfear.  That is the one person I have always pictured surprising and scaring Asmo in that fashion.  He thinks she is dead, surely it came as a shock to see her there!<br /><br />I really do not think it was slayer, as killing by sword typically leaves some traces. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Lanfear in the pantry with a razor thin shot of Balefire...


created: 2004-01-02 15:39:22
subject: <b>I disagree with all of you., you silly theorists!</b>
body:
It's so obvious that Asmodean is in Shayol Ghul gorging on the ultimate evil, girl scout cookies! It's so obvious that the person he saw was a girl scout! How can there be any debate!?!?!?!? Girl Scout cookies are the source of the True Power!<br /><br />Oh yeah, well done on the theory. Well written.


created: 2004-01-02 15:42:27
subject: <b>You gave us motive</b>
body:
but not means or oppurtunity. Means is obvious, but if she had the oppurtunity to kill Asmo, and she got in and out without being noticed, then would she not go after Rand, after all, she is madder at him for 'cheating' on her than Asmo for not telling her, cause she found out anyways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 15:51:30
subject: <b>Everything except DNA....</b>
body:
I gave you RJ's qoute.  RJ gave you everthing leading up to the murder.  I broke down the final thoughts of Asmodean.  I revealed RJ's habits ( patterns).<br /><br />I've given you more than most.  Sorry I don't have any DNA to back it up.<br /><br />Most importantly I've given you what was intuitively obvious.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 15:53:32
subject: <b>good, but...</b>
body:
Hey, i agree with the theory. it never crossed my mind until u wrote it up so nicely. good job.<br /><br />one problem i have is that Asmodean shouldn't have recognized her in her new body...<br /><br />also, Columbo, who are u? that letter made it sound like, u are the master theorist or something. if its true, u should start a WoT theory school where u teach everyone the art. <br /><br />and that theory sounded a lot like this essay i wrote to my teacher bout folders, with the definitions and all. it was great.<br /><br />good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One day a man called me crazy. So this dude punched him in the throat. It turns out I did it.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br />I should be committed.<br /><br />I'm Lord of the Wolves. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 16:24:09
subject:
<b>Oh, the arrogance <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I didn't post this theory, so this is my first time reading it. The start <i>was</i> funny, at least I thought so. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Lanfear does have a pretty good case for killing Asmo, moreso that Slayer, I think. There is also a pretty good case against her, too. Instinctively obvious, is right, and it's who I thought killed him when I read it for the first time. I still favour Graendal, but that's besides the point.<br /><br />The FAQ for this has been in fits and starts for the last 2 years. Due to the recent interest, I plan on making a discussion of the sections I have done so far and hopefully polish it up taht way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 16:51:45
subject: <b>Great theory Columbo!</b>
body:
I just have a few comments on a few things.<br /><br /><b>Etzel</b><br /><br />I didn't want to spoil this theory by posting on yours, but Slayer is just an impossibility.<br /><br />1) How did he know where Asmo was? As far as I know there was no Forsaken other than Lanfear who knew where he was. Could you explain how Slayer knew where he was and what he was up to? Also, the fact that he is an assassin would lead me to believe that he must have had orders from someone. Who ordered him to take asmo out? It must have been someone who knew where he was, what he was doing, etc. Want to explain that? And before you say the DO, keep in mind that A) if it were (say) Graendal that reported to the DO, why would she not have killed him herself? More glory, right? And that also opens up how she knew. No, the DO did not know from any of the Forsaken. B) The DO is not omniscient in his prison. Boiled down, the question is this: how did Slayer know where Asmo was, and how was it intuitively obvious? Remember- you can only use evidence up to and including FoH.<br /><br />2) How do we know, as of FoH, that Asmo knows anything about Slayer? Sure, we know as of WH,but up to FoH? It has to be intuitively obvious. <br /><br />3) If it was Slayer, why didn't Asmo poke a hole in him with the Power? He could have fought back. Didn't you read this theory?<br /><br />You have to keep in mind, too, that Interviews typically come at the beginning of a book tour, so &quot;only one fan&quot; is not necesarily one out of millions. <br /><br />Why did you assume that Lanfear was dead? I honestly don't understand that. Because Lan said that Moiraine was gone? How does that relate to Lanfear? No, it's not obvious that Lanfear is dead at that point: that's just something that people have built up and said, and it has become a consensus theory, not a verified fact. In fact there is little evidence to prove it. Since when have the finn given new bodies? No, the new body was from the DO: Last Chance. <br /><br />So, I would think that Lanfear is released from the finn (after setting her own price: lesser power?) and then goes to take a cold, calculated revenge on Asmo. The white hot heat of Rand is gone: now she just wants to play the game. But Asmo is going down for betraying her. It's a common revenge mentality. After she kills him she goes to report to the DO. As punishment for what she's been up to the DO gives her a last chance, and then knows about Asmo and tells Demandred in LoC. Also, we have no idea how long she was held for: time is different in finnland.<br /><br />Now, I don't know what books you are reading, but as of the end of FoH, I had no idea that Slayer worked for the Forsaken on jobs or that any of the other Forsaken knew where Asmo was (remember: as of the end of FoH) to give Slayer the order. I also didn't know that Asmo knew who Slayer was at all, that he dfeared him, etc. Also, he killed the BA in Tear because they were FULLY SHIELDED. Asmo was not. He could have killed Slayer if he wanted to, and I'm sorry, but Slayer's omission of Asmo in his thoughts of killing channelers is just too blatant.<br /><br />Once again: Slayer is not obvious, even now.<br /><br /><b>impywimpy</b><br /><br />Just a few answers : <br /><br />- Lanfear knew where Asmo was because he would doubtless be near Rand, and the palace would be obvious. As for how she knew what section of the Palace he was in, the simple answer is that she didn't. It sounded to me like running into each other was a surprise on both parts, and Asmo had enough time to say a couple words before being burned to ash. She was probably surprised for a moment, too.<br /><br />- At this time we had no idea that Lanfear was in Cyndane's body, and indeed there is no proof hat she had her new body at this point. Indeed, she must have got it when she went to the DO.<br /><br />- It is my guess that after killing Asmo, Lanfear went and reported to the DO. Can't be proven, but if it was not Lanfear who reported on Asmo's location and doings, then who could it have been?<br /><br />- Well, you have to remember the saying &quot;Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear would have gone after Asmo for betraying her. It is consistent with her character in my mind: no one puts one over Lanfear.<br /><br /><b>Jaric Mondoran</b><br /><br />Now THAT is a theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That's it for now. More later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 17:40:56
subject: <b>One more thing....</b>
body:
This goes with the &quot;woman scorned&quot; comment. Althogh she was mad as hell at Rand, she was also infatuated with him. She wouldn't kill him. So the next best thing is to take away his major resource, Asmo.


created: 2004-01-02 17:57:42
subject: <b>Just a thought?</b>
body:
We can all agree hopefully that Cyndane and Lanfear are the same person.  And in this theory your claim is that Lanfear did not die.  She could not have died in order for Ash to recognize her.  So did the dark one kill her after the murder and put her in a new body when he could have just put her in the mind trap and used her full powers.  come on!!  However Lanfear died it was somewhere on the other side of that door.  Meaning it could not be her.  However someone else came to mind when you put out this notion and we know she did not die because she is supposed to return as herself. Moiraine also fell through that door.<br />Moiraine has reason as an Aes Sedai to kill a Forsaken who was no longer needed.  Moiraine had some knowledge of future events via the Wise One apprentice test, and one of the choices she had to make was to go through that door and leave Rand on his own for a time in order for him to succeed.  But Moiraine has a motive outside of her Aes Sedai duty,  that would be to remove Ash as a potential bad influence i.e. remove any possibility of him becoming Rand's advisor or confidant.  I think that Moiraine is a much more plausible executioner and as she is a practicle woman this is well within her range of practicle behaviors.  And hey it wouldn't be the first forsaken she'd killed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 18:17:18
subject: <b>AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.  It was NOT Lanfear.  PLEASE all get that into your heads.  The only way it could be her is by RJ making a complete blunder, and he didn't.<br /><br />Read the MANY theories on this subject, but off the top of my head here are a handful of reasons why not, and please pay particular attention to #5:<br /><br />1.  Lanfear is dead. Don't say she isn't, she is. That's why she needed a new body. That's the only reason any of the Forsaken were given new bodies. She also lost a lot of her power in her new body.<br /><br />2.  Asmodean didn't know Cyndane.  In any case, Cyndane didn't appear until about 2 books later, so hardly intuitive.<br /><br />3.  Lanfear had no reason to kill Asmodean.  Yes he taught Rand, but she brought him to Rand to teach him (see closing scene of tSR in Rhuidean).  Why kill him then, rather than at any time up till then? Or why at all, since he was doing what she wanted him to do?<br /><br />4.  If Lanfear did not die, then just as plausibly neither did Moiraine.  And Moiraine, per her last letter knew Natael was Asmodean, and had much more reason to kill him.<br /><br />5.  This is very important, so PLEASE pay attention:  before Lanfear when through the doorway, she was incandescent with rage against two people: Rand and Aviendha (for sleeping together).  If she had come back a few hours later (which she didn't) why on earth would she kill Asmodean, but make no attempt on the other two?  It just doesn't make sense.<br /><br />You are wrong. Period.<br />


created: 2004-01-02 18:18:26
subject: <b>onarishma</b>
body:
Cyndane means Last Chance.  Ponder that for awhile.  <br /><br />The theory answers the question &quot; Who killed Asmodean&quot; not why? and how? Lanfear got a new body, or who killed Lanfear?  I can't answer that one for you, sorry. I can answer the Asmodean enigma and have. Please reread my theory.<br /><br />Some read with EYES WIDE SHUT.  I rather enjoy reading with my eyes open.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 18:37:22
subject: <b>Green Gaidin, and then Columbo</b>
body:
First let me say that I agree with you on Slayer.  That idea has never had much appeal to me and I never really saw it as a possibility.<br /><br /><b>1) How did he know where Asmo was?</b><br /><br />Forgetting that you were asking about Slayer, since you were also curious how the DO could know at this point.  Most likely, and also possible scenario, is Fades.  Asmodean had taken part in a battle that included trollocs, fades, etc.  <br /><br />We knew Asmodean was not using a MoM because Rand would have commented it at some point.  Plus since no one knew what Asmodean looked like there was no point to it.  None of the other forsaken (save Lanfear several times, but only after she revealed who she was to people, and Sammael and Graendel later) used them as well.  Asmodean being forsaken, and since we already know that the forsaken control shadowspawn (Rahvin, Sammael, Semirehage, etc) we can assume that he would be recognized.  Rather easy for a fade to then report that.  And yes this was precisely what I thought the first time I read it (except for the Sammael &amp; Graendel because I hadn't seen that yet).<br /><br />Its easily possible for any of the DO's servants to have known Asmodean's location by the time he was killed (several hours after the battle was over).<br /><br /><b>3) If it was Slayer, why didn't Asmo poke a hole in him with the Power?</b><br /><br />Just because I hate this argument...  Asmo wasn't exactly in the best condition.  He was very confused over the morning and considering he was looking for wine (judging from his mood to get drunk, not for thirst).  He was surpised that he recognized someone and says &quot;You? NO!&quot;.  The fact that he is currently confuesed and not in a good frame of mind, combined with the surprise of recognizing someone he didn't expect is what did him in.  There's also no pause so the other person had to be expecting to find him in this area (not necessarily in that room, but soon) or there surpise would have delayed their reaction as well.<br /><br /><b>Why did you assume that Lanfear was dead?</b><br /><br />I never thought she was dead myself (at least not until we saw Cyndane and figured out she was Lanfear), just like I don't believe Moiraine is dead.  But I still don't think she would be anywhere near obvious.  We saw her go through the door and the door destroyed.  We know of no other exit from that land (no prior evidence suggesting the 2 Finn lands were connected, and still not much information on ToG, has it even been stated its connected to the Finns or is that our assumption?).  Even when Mat was brought out, he was near the doorway suggesting that he left through the doorway.  Intuitively at this point she is trapped at the very least and unavailable.<br /><br /><b>No, the new body was from the DO: Last Chance</b><br /><br />The new body shows that she most likely died.  Since we still know of no other exit besides the doorway (though from her WH comments we can assume you could exit the Tear door possibly) its most likely that she died in Finnland.<br /><br /><b>The white hot heat of Rand is gone</b><br /><br />This has pretty much been disproven.  As Cyndane she wants to see Rand die.  Because of that its not likely she ever cooled down enough to just &quot;play the game&quot;<br /><br /><b>Slayer's omission of Asmo in his thoughts of killing channelers is just too blatant</b><br /><br />I completely agree with the vast majority of your thoughts on Slayer.<br /><br /><br /><b>Columbo</b><br /><br />I have to admit, you're pretty good at writing this.  Its not a proof though.  At least one person above said that while reading the quote in your theory it became obvious to them.  <br /><br />My guess is that comes from the fact that only 2 people were mentioned by name and Rahvin was killed more recently (and with balefire) than Lanfear went through the door, eliminating him.<br /><br />Lanfear is only mentioned in that one short segment, and considering how indepth his characters get, I would expect nothing less than what he thought from him.  If there was NO mention of Lanfear then it would have been suspiscious.<br /><br />However, its much more intuitive from that passage to assume it would be &quot;the last&quot; forsaken or the DO.  Of course since the DO doesn't have a body and we wouldn't know who the last forsaken left standing would be (unless of course if you assume Ishmael still isn't dead, or guessed the DO could bring them back).<br /><br />As for the rest of your theory, its less proof and mostly psychology.  You don't really provide evidence, but an outline of an idea for people to absorb.<br /><br />Without some real evidence I just don't buy it (and yes I understand your point was &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; implying that it shouldn't require much evidence, but your conclusion really isn't).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 19:29:08
subject: <b>I hope the stress isn't more than you can bare.</b>
body:
My good buddy Jordanian.....I hope you didn't use up all your internet time with your response.  <br /><br /><br />NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. It was NOT Lanfear. PLEASE all get that into your heads. The only way it could be her is by RJ making a complete blunder, and he didn't.<br /><br />Maybe you made a blunder, lets find out and please don't hold your breath its bad for your health.<br /><br />Read the MANY theories on this subject, but off the top of my head here are a handful of reasons why not, and please pay particular attention to #5:<br /><br />I will pay very close attention, don't worry so Jordanian.<br /><br /><br />1. Lanfear is dead. Don't say she isn't, she is. That's why she needed a new body. That's the only reason any of the Forsaken were given new bodies. She also lost a lot of her power in her new body.<br /><br />At the time of reading Asmodeans demise why should we (the readers) assume Lanfear is dead?  because she went through the doorway to Finnland?  Up to that point in the books I don't remember anyone dying as a result of a visit to the Finns.  They left Mat hanging from a tree but the Finns knew that he would survive, just look at the answers he was given to the questions he asked.  Mat was a green pea and he made it.  On the other hand Lanfear was an expert on the subject of other worlds.  I think the chances are very good that she's not dead at all.  Now remember this is at the time of the murder and your the reader.  Forget about what you know now about Lanfear.  At the time why should I beleive she's dead?  She went through the doorway into Finnland, so what.<br /><br />2. Asmodean didn't know Cyndane. In any case, Cyndane didn't appear until about 2 books later, so hardly intuitive.<br /><br />Again &quot;Intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer&quot; at the time of reading, not 6 books later!<br /><br />Take a breath Jordanian.<br /><br />3. Lanfear had no reason to kill Asmodean. Yes he taught Rand, but she brought him to Rand to teach him (see closing scene of tSR in Rhuidean). Why kill him then, rather than at any time up till then? Or why at all, since he was doing what she wanted him to do?<br /><br /> &#8220;I have been too busy to watch al&#8217;Thor myself. Tell me what he has done, aside from conquering Cairhein, what he plans to do.&#8221; <br /><br />Kadere died because he failed in this and Lanfear completley lost her self control as a result.  Do you think Asmodean even more so would be held responsible.<br /><br />4. If Lanfear did not die, then just as plausibly neither did Moiraine. And Moiraine, per her last letter knew Natael was Asmodean, and had much more reason to kill him.<br /><br />Who said Moraine is dead?  Where exactly are you coming from Jordanian?  Are you saying Moraine is responsible?  Why do you leave us hanging?<br /><br />5. This is very important, so PLEASE pay attention: before Lanfear when through the doorway, she was incandescent with rage against two people: Rand and Aviendha (for sleeping together). If she had come back a few hours later (which she didn't) why on earth would she kill Asmodean, but make no attempt on the other two? It just doesn't make sense.<br /><br />Your point is so important I think you should reread it for yourself and then apologize for posting this in the first place!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 19:48:57
subject: <b>Ok, here's what I have written for Lanfear in the FAQ</b>
body:
It's up for changes, but I think it pins down the points nicely. <br /><br /><b>Lanfear</b><br /><br />Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, especially in Lanfear&#8217;s case. Crossing her would not be a wise thing to do if you wanted to live for much longer. With regards to Asmodean&#8217;s murder, it all hinges on what happened when she fell through the red stone Gateway in Cairhien:<br /><br /><li><b>She isn&#8217;t a viable suspect</b>- In this scenario, Lanfear fell through the Gateway and was captured by the Eelfinn and killed not long after. Therefore making any trip back to kill Asmodean would be out of the question. It&#8217;s certainly likely. The Eelfinn are not the kind of creatures you would like to meet. Their sharp teeth and manner hint at a carnivorous nature and they wear scraps of clothing that is made from what seems like human skin, suggesting that human sacrifice or eating human flesh is a natural occurrence:<br /><blockquote>The fellow started, pale eyes widening, then he shrugged and adjusted the silverstudded straps across his chest; his mocking smile seemed tailored to draw attention to what he was doing. Suddenly Mat found himself wondering where that pale leather came from. Surely not..<i>Oh, Light, I think it is.<br /><br />&#8230;I&#8217;ll be burned if I&#8217;ll let some fox-faced goat-brain make a harness out of my hide</i><br /><br />-<i>The Shadow Rising</i>, Rhuidean<br /></blockquote>What&#8217;s more, Darkfriends have even more reason to avoid them. When asked about the Finn at a book signing:<br /><blockquote>What was going on in Finnland when Mat went round and round and round the same location?  Were they travelling in time?<br /><br />Not travelling in time. The physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is  *REALLY* bad. You cannot go to Finnland in <i>Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod</i> (similar to <i>Stedding</i>).<br /></blockquote>If Lanfear exposed herself as one of the Forsaken, chances are that she was sentenced to death almost immediately and eventually met a rather grisly end. It might be noted that, since the Eelfinn could manufacture Mat&#8217;s medallion, logically they must have some way of protecting themselves against channeling. Whether Lanfear was Stilled or not, she would be all but helpless in their hands.</li><br /><br /><li><b>She is viable</b>- As far as &#8216;obvious&#8217; goes, we know that the Eelfinn have the power to grant three wishes, and that the prices for these three wishes are high. We know that Lanfear went through the doorway and was not killed instantly, though, at the time it was debateable whether she was killed in the explosion and we didn&#8217;t know the facts till <i>Winter&#8217;s Heart</i>. We also have no indication that Lanfear broke any of the agreements required by the Eelfinn. Assuming they did not find out about her allegiance to the Shadow straight away (and why would they?), it has been postulated that she gained three wishes and that she used one of them to kill Asmodean. The reasons why she would have, and indeed why she wouldn&#8217;t, are discussed in the following sections.</li><br /><br /><b>Expanding on the Eelfinn Possibility: Motives</b><br /><br />So, why would Lanfear kill Asmodean? Well, we&#8217;ve seen Lanfear threaten Asmodean before. She has a very low opinion of him. In her view he is completely expendable:<br /><blockquote> &#8220;What has he done?&#8221; she sniffed. &#8220;Beaten you like a dog, and not half so well as you deserve. You were never meant for greatness, Asmodean, only to follow those who are great.&#8221;<br /><br />-<i>The Shadow Rising</i>, The Traps of Rhuidean<br />&lt;blockquote&gt;We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord forever.<br /><br />-<i>The Shadow Rising</i>, Decisions<br /><br />&#8220;Do you think Lanfear really intended me to teach you everything? If she had wanted that, she would have contrived to stay close so she could link us. She wants you to live, Lews Therin, but this time she means to be stronger than you.&quot; <br /><br />-<i>The Fires Of Heaven</i>, Pale Shadows<br /></blockquote>Lanfear never planned to let Asmodean live longer than he was useful for. Asmodean was not even aware of Lanfear&#8217;s little entrapment until after he was captured. Rahvin seems to think that this type of treachery and murder would be typical of Lanfear:<br /><blockquote> Who trusted Lanfear behind him deserved the knife he might well find in his back. Not that she was so very trustworthy when watched.<br /><br />-<i>The Fires of Heaven</i>, The First Sparks Fall<br /></blockquote>Killing Asmodean would certainly be in line with her character. But we&#8217;ll need a better reason that Lanfear&#8217;s utter contempt for him. Why would she go out of her way to kill him? One motive would be jealousy. With her out of the picture, that left someone else to reap the in the glory if Rand was victorious at Tarmon Gai&#8217;don. Someone who had been helping him and someone she knows has ambitions of power. <br /><blockquote>&#8221;He dreams of you triumphing over the Great Lord and putting him up beside you on high. Sometimes he dreams of me.&#8221; Her smile said those dreams were pleasant for her, but not for Asmodean.<br /><br />-<i>The Fires of Heaven</i>, Gateways<br /></blockquote> Sure, <i>we</i> know that Rand would never reward Asmodean, but given Lanfear&#8217;s paranoid nature can we be sure that Lanfear would think as rationally as we do? She&#8217;s a confused woman. Indirect threats, or even perceived threats could lead her to take drastic action, especially when it involves her thirst for Power and Rand&#8217;s favour.<br /><br />Another major motive for Lanfear is the question of blame. The last time we see her, Rand told her he would never love one of the Forsaken. Emotionally, this is more than she can cope with; after all, Lanfear is pretty screwed up. But whom could she blame for turning Rand away from her? Well, this quote seems pretty interesting:<br /><blockquote> &#8220;Of course. Asmodean has been teaching you things about the war of power, and me. He lies. You did love me. Until that yellow-haired trollop Ilyena stole you.&#8221; For an instant, rage made her face a contorted mask; he did not think she was even aware of it. &#8220;Did you know that Asmodean severed his own mother? What they call stilling, now. Severed her and let Myrdraal drag her away screaming. Can you trust a man like that?&#8221;<br /><br />-<i>The Fires of heaven</i>, Gateways<br /></blockquote> Although it is unclear whether the rage is directed towards Ilyena or Asmodean, it&#8217;s obvious that she wants to get back at Asmodean. When Rand finally tells her he will never love her, and uses the name Mierin, who would be easiest to blame? She would never blame her precious Lews Therin (she always blamed Ilyena), which leaves Asmodean or Aviendha.  So it seems that taking into account both Lanfear&#8217;s paranoia and her tendency to lash out, the likelihood of her killing Asmodean greatly increases. However&#8230;<br /><br /> <b>Motives Aren&#8217;t Everything </b><br /><br />She may have her own twisted motives and a possible opportunity to carry out Asmodean&#8217;s murder but a major problem with the wishes scenario is that the Eelfinn give three wishes and not just one. Furthermore, it&#8217;s more likely that Lanfear would exact her revenge on someone else. She may have motives, but she also has priorities:<br /><blockquote> &#8220;One of them?&#8221; Lanfear snarled. &#8220;Which is Aviendha?&#8221; Egwene threw her head back and wailed, eyes bulging, the world&#8217;s agony shrieking from her mouth. &#8220;Which?&#8221; Aviendha rose on tiptoes, shuddering, howls chasing Egwene&#8217;s as they climbed higher and higher.<br /><br />&#8230; &#8220;Your name is Lanfear, and I&#8217;ll die before I love one of the Forsaken.&#8221; Something that might have been anguish crossed her face, then it was a marble mask once more. &#8220;If you are not mine,&#8221; she said coldly, &#8220;then you are dead.&#8221;<br /><br />-<i>The Fires of Heaven</i>, Choices<br /></blockquote>So while Lanfear would probably want to kill Asmodean, it would be more likely that she would come back to kill Aviendha or someone else first. Also, Cyndane makes no mention of gaining any wishes at all. If she had killed Asmodean for the reasons stated earlier we would have seen something from her point of view in <i>Winter&#8217;s Heart</i> indicating that she had got her revenge on him. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 20:39:35
subject: <b>Jordanian, then Fyatuk</b>
body:
<b>Jordanian</b>... wow. I didn't think I'd have to explain it this slowly, but tke your own advice and pay close attention.<br /><br /><b>1. Lanfear is dead. Don't say she isn't, she is. That's why she needed a new body. That's the only reason any of the Forsaken were given new bodies. She also lost a lot of her power in her new body.</b><br /><br />Oh, okay. &quot;Don't say she isn't.&quot; Compelling evidence. Columbo, you may be out of a job here because THIS guy is a detective. He sounds like Inspector Clueseau (sp?). lol. Just a little ribbing there, ol' buddy ol' pal, but come on: you HAVE to give us a reason other than your personal thoughts. Columbo never said that she didn't die, but WHEN did she die? Do you have conclusive proof that she died in Finnland? Hell, even in WH she only says that they HELD her. Also, could you explain how her having less power as Cyndane is relevant here? <br /><br />Bottom line: you have no proof that she died, and there is no evidence whatsoever that says she died in finnland, or was dead when Asmo opened the pantry door.<br /><br /><b>2. Asmodean didn't know Cyndane. In any case, Cyndane didn't appear until about 2 books later, so hardly intuitive.</b><br /><br />Read the theory. He said &quot;Lanfear,&quot; not &quot;Cyndane.&quot; <br /><br /><b>3. Lanfear had no reason to kill Asmodean. Yes he taught Rand, but she brought him to Rand to teach him (see closing scene of tSR in Rhuidean). Why kill him then, rather than at any time up till then? Or why at all, since he was doing what she wanted him to do?</b><br /><br />Yes, but he did <i>not</i> do what she wanted him to do. He with held Rand and Avi, which she most definetely would have wanted to know. And she killed him because she could not trust him anymore; he was too far gone into Rand's camp by that time: holding info for Rand's sake.<br /><br /><b>4. If Lanfear did not die, then just as plausibly neither did Moiraine. And Moiraine, per her last letter knew Natael was Asmodean, and had much more reason to kill him.</b><br /><br />Columbo, do you remember saying that Moiraine died? I know <i>I</i> didn't say it. And besides, Moiraine is <i>not</i> obvious: if she wanted Asmo dead she would have killed him long before, right?<br /><br /><b>5. This is very important, so PLEASE pay attention: before Lanfear when through the doorway, she was incandescent with rage against two people: Rand and Aviendha (for sleeping together). If she had come back a few hours later (which she didn't) why on earth would she kill Asmodean, but make no attempt on the other two? It just doesn't make sense.</b><br /><br />Okay now this may be a little tough to follow, so tie your thinking cap tight. She was enraged with Rand because he 'broke their plans' together. Remember Lanfear's plan? How they would rule the world together? Yeah, well, after something as serious as that day she would have realized that... nope. Isn't going to happen. At that point she has to go back to being a Forsaken, vying for the top spot. In the courtyard we have Mat and Avi, and Rand above them on the balcony. How could she be sure that Rand would not burn her to ash had she gone after Avi? MAybe she could take them in their sleep, but... wait. As far as she knows they sleep together. Rand knows how to set wards that will smoke anyone who tries to enter them. That's what she left Asmo there for, remember? <br /><br />Also, after escaping Finnland she would have reported to the DO, right? Yeah. And unless the DO had changed his mind in the 12 hours following, the orders were to let the Lord of Chaos rule. Granted you don't know that at the end of FoH, but you also don't know if Asmo's killer (Lanfear) is headed upstairs to scrap with Rand.<br /><br /><b>You are wrong. Period.</b><br /><br />Famous last words.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>Fyatuk</b><br /><br />Fades could not report Asmo if they were dead, right? And that seemed to have been the case. Also, we don't know how they 'see.' Would they recognize Asmo's face, his essence, or what? We don't know for sure. Also, there is no reason to believe that any fades escaped- there is not even a hint of it in the books. It's just too big of a 'what if...?'<br /><br />As far as Asmo 'not being in the best condition,' I've been tired before, too, but if I was fighting for my life (as Asmo knew he was doing at the time) then I would didge a punch and even throw one of my own. No, Asmo must have realized that he had zero chance, hence the blood draining from his face. And it was not as if he was entirely depressed or anything. He is thinking &quot;Yeah, it's a tough spot, but I'm ALIVE.&quot; That isn't too depressed or downtrodden to fight. In fact, he is thinking that he will hang on as long as he can (grass tuft on the cliff) before dying. That's the frame of mind of a survivor, not someone who gives up and almost faints in fear.<br /><br />Don't you feel that she is more obvious than any of the other suspects for the simple fact that Asmo was thinking about how happy he was that she was dead JUST BEFORE he died? You've got to give Columbo at least that much.<br /><br /><b>The new body shows that she most likely died. Since we still know of no other exit besides the doorway (though from her WH comments we can assume you could exit the Tear door possibly) its most likely that she died in Finnland.</b><br /><br />I would agree that she died, but would you mind explaining why it is so likely that she died in finnland? And also, aside for this debate of her as the killer, can you tell me why you think she came out of the doorway in Tear? No sarcasm there: I really don't remember that. Do you have a quote?<br /><br /><b>This has pretty much been disproven. As Cyndane she wants to see Rand die. Because of that its not likely she ever cooled down enough to just &quot;play the game&quot;</b><br /><br />Oh, has it? If it was her &quot;Last Chance,&quot; would she have gone against the DO's orders to let the LoC rule? I don't think so. I think she would LIKE to kill Rand but doesn't dare.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Alright boys and girls, my fingers are sore and I think I'm developing carpal tunnel. This is a great debate! Keep it coming!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 20:43:33
subject: <b>A few small points</b>
body:
You stated that Lanfear was the only one that knew where Asmo was. In tFoH prologue, The First Sparks Fall, Lanfear meets with Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal and tells them that Asmo has gone over to al'Thor. So they all know of the association.<br /><br />The attack on Rahvin was planned the night before, also. At that time, Rand told Asmo to stay in Cairhien and do a little spying for him. Asmo made the decision to go the next morning, so no one knew in advance that he was accompanying Rand to Caemlyn. Kadere certainly didn't know about that to tell Lanfear, as they all went straight to the docks after Asmo gets permission to go with Rand. In fact, Kadere only knew Asmo as a high-ranking DF named Jasin Natael.<br /><br />Moghedien had knowledge of the attack beforehand, too. She even tells Nynaeve that Rand is walking into a trap. That's how they ended up there to help. <br /><br />It's apparent that all or most of the Forsaken have spies close to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 21:12:19
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
First, some people seem to take RJ's obvious comment much more serious than the clues in the books.<br />As the discussion about Asmo's death shows it's actually not obvious for the reader, whatever RJ believes.<br /><br />Besides, it's really not obvious that only because all characters think Lanfear is dead, she has to be the killer, quite the contrary.<br /><br />Another point is that after Asmo thinks about Rhavin and Lanfear he considers that &quot;He would laugh when each of the others [Chosen] died, too, and most for the last&quot;.  <br /><br />If I follow the logic that Lanfear must be the killer because Asmo thought of her shortly before he died, all other Forsaken are obvious as well.<br />That already shows that this argument is very weak.<br /><br />Actually as all characters, the reader had to believe that Moiraine &amp; Lanfear are dead or in Finnland.<br />Then in WH Cyndane even considers that she was held by the Finns which indicates it was for some time. <br /><br />Everyone should remember that Lanfear fell at the same day into the doorway when Asmo was killed.  <br />It's almost impossible that Lanfear was only held a few hours by the Finn, then changed into Cyndane (with less power) and had enough time/notion to kill Asmo (why could Asmo recognize her then?).<br /><br />Also that Lanfear would kill Asmo rather than Aviendha or Rand (she wanted to kill both a few hours ago) makes no sense. <br /><br />Besides that Lanfear could not know that Asmo would enter the room.<br /><br />All in all, already this shows that the Lanfeardunnit theory holds no water and is at the latest disproved in WH. <br /><br />


created: 2004-01-02 22:26:23
subject: <b>My oh my.</b>
body:
<b>Etzel</b><br /><br />I've been here a long time, and this new argument of &quot;RJ didn't know what he was talking about/ was exagerrating&quot; is <b><i><u>FAR AND AWAY</u></i></b> the weakest argument I have <b><i><u>EVER</u></i></b> seen on this site. I've been wrong before, and so has Columbo. We've all been wrong about this or that, but to say that the author himself is wrong about his own writing? That's just too arrogant, don't you think?<br /><br />Now Etzel, I'm just going to say this flat out because I don't want to waste a lot of time.<br /><br />Slayer is not the killer.<br /><br />I'm sorry, but he isn't. In no way, shape, or form is he obvious at ALL when Asmo is killed. The idea of a murder mystery doesn't work if you don't know who the killer is beforehand (not AS the killer, obviously). That's the magic of the mystery idea. There just isn't any compelling evidence for Slayer whatsoever until WH.<br /><br />That said, to solve a murder (as Columbo well knows) you have to have two things: A Motive, and the Smoking Gun. He gave both, you gave neither. But assuming that we move on to your second choice, Graendal, what was her Motive and what was her Smoking Gun; what gave her away <u>before the end of FoH?</u> Keep in mind that at that point there was no standing orders from the DO to kill Asmo that the reader knew of, so that option is scratched already. That said, what are the Motives/Smoking Guns?<br /><br /><b>Light in the Night</b><br /><br />That's a good point: that the Forsaken knew that he went over to Rand, but what would they think when Lanfear tells them &quot;He has gone over to al'Thor?&quot; That he went willingly, right? That he chose to go over. Lanfear did not tell them the full story because it would have meant almost certain death for her once they reported to the DO. So, he &quot;went over&quot; to al'Thor. That did not mean that he stayed close to Rand all the time, or that he was even in the same city. He could have been anywhere, doing anything, just as the Forsaken like to do. No, the only one that he was attatched at the hip to Rand was Lanfear. She was the only one who could have guaranteed that Asmo would have been in the Palace. And again, the Forsaken having spies on Rand would only reveal Asmo as Natael, and spies have better things to report than the fact that the Dragon hired a minstrel to play for him. That's interesting, though. I wonder where Moggy got her info from...<br /><br />And I was glad to see you on this theory! The more hardcores the better <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-02 23:03:55
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
<b><br />Fades could not report Asmo if they were dead, right? And that seemed to have been the case. Also, we don't know how they 'see.' Would they recognize Asmo's face, his essence, or what? We don't know for sure. Also, there is no reason to believe that any fades escaped- there is not even a hint of it in the books. It's just too big of a 'what if...?'</b><br /><br />The last the book mentions is the following &quot;The Nightrunners and Shadowtwisted are running.&quot;  Do you honestly think that if Fades and Trollocs were running they wouldn't escape?  Yes some escaped, but not necessarily any that saw Asmo.  That's a little too broad to say the books don't even hint that they escaped considering the above quote isn't it?<br /><br />As for how the Fades see, that's irrelevant.  It only matters that we know they can identify individuals.  Fades can tell each other apart when no one else can and they can identify the people they have to take orders for.  Most likely the fades would be able to recognize any forsaken on &quot;sight&quot;<br /><br /><b>I would agree that she died, but would you mind explaining why it is so likely that she died in finnland? And also, aside for this debate of her as the killer, can you tell me why you think she came out of the doorway in Tear? No sarcasm there: I really don't remember that. Do you have a quote?</b><br /><br />First, I would assume she died in finnland because we can't be honestly sure there's any way out from that particular doorway since its destruction.<br /><br />Second, I didn't say she came out of the doorway in Tear.  I said that after her comments about being held by <i>both</i> finns its possible to assume that she might have been able to exit through the Tear dooway.  (If she was held by both, then the lands are connected).  And of course we have all assumed the tower of ghenjei is another entrance, and per birgitte its is possible but extremely difficult to exit in the world of men, but that is a leap of faith really.<br /><br /><b>Oh, has it? If it was her &quot;Last Chance,&quot; would she have gone against the DO's orders to let the LoC rule? I don't think so. I think she would LIKE to kill Rand but doesn't dare.</b><br /><br />At the time Asmo was killed, you have already argued she wasn't Cyndane at the time, but still Lanfear.  She wasn't on her &quot;last chance&quot;.  We knew she was willing to kill him, as were most other forsaken (Aginor, Balal, Ishmael, Rahvin, Sammael, Graendel, and Asmodean all tried).  I don't see why she would hold back now when she tried to kill him earlier in the day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 01:56:09
subject: <b>if you want a damn scenario so bad...</b>
body:
A lot of you guys have been against this theory at least in part because there was no actual scenario divised to show how Lanfear could have done it.  So I decided to take this upon myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Moiraine and Lanfear fall through the gateway into the land of the Finns.  Lanfear has knowledge of this place from the AoL.  From the Finns Lanfear learns of Rand's romantic affairs with other women.  She completes a smooth transaction with the Finnies and returns to the real world.  She is furious and needs a target to vent her anger on.  Lanfear, always being the little schemer, decides to kill Asmodean, not only because he was supposed to report Rand's actions to her (she also probably expected him to stop Rand from getting dirty with anyone), but also because it would gain her approval from the DO towards becoming Nae'Blis.  Lanfear decides that in order to get to Asmo without being detected she would have to use the TP, so as not to be detected.  After arriving in Caemlyn she has to hide until she can get acces to Asmodean.  So she therefor weaves the Mask of Mirrors to keep her identity a secret.  That means that she is holding the incredibly enticing TP for a considerable amount of time.  Lanfear spends her time learning her area to make travelling possible.  Finally Asmodean wanders over to a secluded area that has been messed up w/ balefire.  Lanfear drops the disguise and lets Asmo know exactly who is doing the evil deed.  Balefire whipes Asmo off the face of the earth (couldnt find his body, remember?), and any collateral damage isnt noticed because the whole area has already been balefired.  Lanfear travels out of Caemlyn, but cannot let go of the TP.  She draws in too much of the TP and melts herself into a puddle of goo.  The whole time Moiraine is stuck in Finnland with those annoying bastards and Slayer is hanging out with her because he's a fag.<br /><br />I'm not saying this is what happened.  BUT IT COULD HAPPEN!  I don't wanna hear any more &quot;it couldn't have been Lanfear&quot; from now on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 04:04:02
subject:
<b>Ah, a good heaty discussion again! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Green Gaidin,<br /><br /><b> I've been here a long time, and this new argument of &quot;RJ didn't know what he was talking about/ was exagerrating&quot; is FAR AND AWAY the weakest argument I have EVER seen on this site. I've been wrong before, and so has Columbo. We've all been wrong about this or that, but to say that the author himself is wrong about his own writing? That's just too arrogant, don't you think? </b><br /><br />Actually I don't say that RJ was not right. <br />No, he was right, it is indeed obvious. <br /><br />But the author and the readers have a different opinion of what obvious is because RJ knows all clues from  all the books while we have to search for them.<br /><br /><b> Slayer is not the killer.<br /><br />I'm sorry, but he isn't. In no way, shape, or form is he obvious at ALL when Asmo is killed. The idea of a murder mystery doesn't work if you don't know who the killer is beforehand (not AS the killer, obviously). That's the magic of the mystery idea. There just isn't any compelling evidence for Slayer whatsoever until WH. </b><br /><br />RJ created Slayer as an assassin for the Shadow who can use TAR in the flesh. <br />He gave us enough clues (since EotW) to figure that Slayer (Isam/Luc) also hunted other &quot;traitors&quot; like Fain or the BA for the Shadow and was known by the Forsaken. <br />It's really obvious that such a man would also be used to kill Asmodean. <br />In LoC we learn that the DO wanted and apparently ordered Asmo's death. <br />Then in WH we learn how exactly Slayer has done it. He describes the death of the BA who showed a similiar panic like Asmo when he saw his killer.<br />Even in CoT we have the death of the Seal thieves also done by Slayer in his swift way. <br /><br /><b> That said, to solve a murder (as Columbo well knows) you have to have two things: A Motive, and the Smoking Gun. He gave both, you gave neither. But assuming that we move on to your second choice, Graendal, what was her Motive and what was her Smoking Gun; what gave her away before the end of FoH? Keep in mind that at that point there was no standing orders from the DO to kill Asmo that the reader knew of, so that option is scratched already. That said, what are the Motives/Smoking Guns? </b><br /><br />The motive for Slayer as an assassin is obvious. <br />He was ordered to kill Asmo by the Shadow. <br />Even in TFoH we could imagine that the DO wants Asmo's death.<br /><br />Slayer also hunted the &quot;renegade&quot; Fain for the Shadow and says that he knows people who want Perrin's head (that can only be the Forsaken). <br />Fain's renegade Myrddraal thinks that Slayer will get him, too.<br />We knew of the BA killing where Moiraine says that could not have been done by a Gray Man.<br />Finally we had the Gray Man killing in the WT.<br /><br />These other killings or killing attempts, all before Asmo's death, are the smoking guns if you want.  <br />The same killer took Asmo.


created: 2004-01-03 06:21:41
subject: <b>Ah, I enjoy a good discussion</b>
body:
I think it was Lanfear.<br /><br />My scenario:<br /><br />Lanfear, in the world of the Foxes, has decided that she can not have Rand be her partner in his plans, what with him sleeping around and all. So she makes a bargain with the Foxes to allow her to kill Asmodean so that Rand will not have him any longer. Now that she is against him and not for him, she doesn't want him to have the benefit of a teacher. What happens next is not so clear, but the price of the bargain likely is her death and she gets reincarnated as Cyndane. The DO gives her one last chance after letting her go about her own plans for so long.<br /><br />This seems to make the most literary sense, and it fits with Colombo's great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 07:42:03
subject: <b>I used to be a Slayer guy, but...</b>
body:
I used to be a Slayer guy, but Columbo makes a strong case.  However, after reading all the posts, I'm starting to think it might have been Moraine.  At least that maybe it was.  Am I crazy?  And if not, what's Moraine been up since the murder?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 08:10:02
subject: <b>On Slayer...</b>
body:
...how do you know he is an assassin for the Shadow? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ah, does it seem like a trick question?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 10:47:55
subject: <b>At least it wasn't Moiraine...</b>
body:
Aviendha would have noticed saidar being used, therefore the true power must have been used, which moiraine didn't have access to. <br /><br />On a side note, I've heard that RJ once had a teacher who came with the &quot;obvious&quot; comment when it really wasn't obvious at all, therefore Rj could mean the same...<br />This is also supported by the fact that ONLY one came up with the right solution.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 12:27:39
subject: <b>It's nice to have all my old cronies come out to play.</b>
body:
Not often does Moridin 2000 make an appearence.  Thanks for your feedback, enjoyed what you have FAQ.<br /><br />Thanks for the heads up Light!<br /><br />bobsledai makes a good point for those that haven't read his comments.<br /><br />Etzel, for some reason your arguing just to argue I think, no?  You say that Lanfear's death is obvious to the characters in the book, but thats not what I'm concerned about.  RJ said it should be intuitively obvious to the reader and thats what I've focused on.  You also say that based on my theory it could have been anyone of the Forsaken.  I suggest you reread the theory.  What I've shown is a reocurring pattern in RJ's writing and if you take the time to honestly think about what I'm suggesting in the theory, I think you will see why RJ says what he does about intuition being your guide, not reasoning.<br /><br />Thanks for the feadback.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 13:31:40
subject: <b>Seriously, Columbo</b>
body:
<b> Etzel, for some reason your arguing just to argue I think, no? You say that Lanfear's death is obvious to the characters in the book, but thats not what I'm concerned about. RJ said it should be intuitively obvious to the reader and thats what I've focused on. You also say that based on my theory it could have been anyone of the Forsaken. I suggest you reread the theory. What I've shown is a reocurring pattern in RJ's writing and if you take the time to honestly think about what I'm suggesting in the theory, I think you will see why RJ says what he does about intuition being your guide, not reasoning. </b><br /><br />I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing but because I'm really convinced that Slayer must be Asmodean's killer.<br /><br />Why is it obvious that Lanfear is the killer when Asmo thinks a few moments before his murder that he was glad that Lanfear was dead? <br />That would be ironic because it's just the contrary of what Asmo &amp; the reader think, but not obvious.<br /><br />I think it's like in other riddles in WoT, e.g. Demandred's or Mesaana's identity: you have to collect different clues from different books to find the right solution. <br />If you collect and combine all these necessary clues, the solution should be indeed quite obvious.<br /><br />We see the same pattern in Asmo's case. <br />RJ even said all necessary clues to figue it out are included up to TFoH (which means also in the books before TFoH which suits Slayer).  <br /><br />That would also mean that you don't need the obvious comment to figure the killer, the main part of your reasoning. <br /><br />Therefore I think RJ used this obvious comment to mock us a bit, to show how clever he is, and that it is actually obvious if you have the hints from the books till TFoH in your mind.


created: 2004-01-03 13:57:51
subject: <b>I have to agree with Etzel</b>
body:
I think I have to agree with Etzel, not about Slayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, but with the intuitively obvious part. The author and the readers have a very different opinion of what intuitively obvious is. RJ knows where all information are, that will help us see what his ide of &quot;inuitively obvious&quot; is. He thinks it should be intuitively obvious to us too, but perhaps we are being misled by his tricky way in writing the Wheel of Time.<br />I think it is this &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; that has made this mystery still a mystery because intuitively obvious is so different depending on who you are.<br /><br />To me it was intuitively obvious that Lanfear was gone, out of the picture. To others it is intuitively obvious tha she was the killer.<br />Perhaps to RJ it is intuitively obvious that Lanfear was back. Or that Ishamael was alive, while almost everyone here seems to think it is intuitively obvious that Ishamael was dead, and could not be the killer.<br /><br />Ishamael did it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-03 14:25:03
subject: <b>Etzel, why?</b>
body:
you again continue down the same path.  Your trying vainly to hang on to the idea that Slayer was involved.  Moridin 2000 ask why you believe he is the shadow's assasin?  Why the lack of response?  You have made Slayer more than he is.<br /><br />Also you again misrepresent what I've tried to convey in my theory and again brush aside RJ's qoute. I included the whole passage, broke it down into pieces and explained how RJ set the scene.  I also showed that its a reoccuring thing that RJ does.  Proof, not assumptions.  <br /><br />The reason we enjoy Rj's work is the fact that he does chose his words carefully.  You cannot continue to argue this fact!  The qoute was well thought out as everything he says and does is as pertains to his work.<br /><br />Lanfear was well known not to mention she had motive.  She implanted Asmodean and what I've down is shown you that she's also responsible for relieving him of his post.  Why would I as the reader assume she is dead?  She went through the doorway, big deal she is Lanfear! Mat made it.  I assumed at the time that she and Moraine would return at some point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 14:57:06
subject: <b>Thanks Rekesalat!</b>
body:
I see now that I was crazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 16:39:26
subject: <b>Stalked</b>
body:
What is intuitively obvious is the fact that whoever controls the voting doesn't like Columbo very much.  Last theory I posted he voted 2400 times against my theory.  This time he voted once and then locked it down.  He scored 100% against me this time.  <br /><br />My toughest critic that doesn't have a name.  I will name him John Doe.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 16:49:49
subject: <b>Geez</b>
body:
If you won't agree that Asmodean is alive and eating Girl Scout Cookies...<br /><br />It's obvious that what RJ means, is that every time there's a mystery, it's obviously Demandred who is behind it. When we can't find who really did it, it's Demandred. It's so obvious, that no one believes it.


created: 2004-01-03 19:05:52
subject: <b>now this is a theory!</b>
body:
I used to be a Greandal-guy, after that I went with Slayer and now Lanfear... Light, I'm even starting to think about Moiraine... damn, I'm a slut! *grin*<br /><br />No... thank you Columbo for this amazing theory. Asmodean is always a good subject to heat up this theory section. And to see the big guys coming out to discuss Asmodean again is just great. Lanfear did it! No where's FoH? I got to read it again... NOW!


created: 2004-01-03 21:43:08
subject: <b>Nah it was Taim!</b>
body:
After all, we learn Taim is in the area right about the time Asmodean died, the BA claimed to have a plot to rescue him, and we know he was rescued under suspiscious circumstances at that point.  Then of course there's the later evidence of him knowing a few things he shouldn't and showing signs of being trained by the forsaken!  <br /><br />Oh wait, it was Bashere!  He came into the palace right when Asmodean was getting killed!<br /><br />*note, the point isn't that either did it, but that saying Lanfear did because she was mentioned near there is kinda dumb*<br /><br />Personally I find it more likely it was Taim than Lanfear or Slayer.  Maybe I'll do my own theory on that just to add fuel to the fire so to speak.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 22:14:35
subject: <b>Fyatuk, Fyatuk, Fyatuk, Fyatuk...</b>
body:
You dissapoint me.  You haven't responded to my rebuttal of your earlier comments and now you've resorted to this?  How do you ever hope to gain the respect of others at this site.  <br /><br />&quot;Kinda dumb&quot; as you say, is  your last post.  <br /><br />I guess I've proven to strong for you.  Maybe I'm wrong.  How about you prove me wrong?  Respond to my earlier rebuttal and lets see what your made off. <br /><br />You've lost face with your last comments, now your going to have to work extra hard to regain what little you had to start with.<br /><br />I believe in second chances and I hope to see a intelligent post from you.  <br /><br />Your capable of better!  <br /><br />Looking to hear from you soon Fyatuk,<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-03 23:08:51
subject: <b>Still leaning towards Graendal</b>
body:
I don't know, but I'm still leaning towards Graendal.  At the point of Asmodean's death, it seemed that we were supposed to think Lanfear dead and gone (did anyone *actually* think she wouldn't be coming back?).  The only appearance Slayer had made was in the Two Rivers in T'AR, where Perrin spanked him pretty handily, so I don't think that (at least at that point in the series) there was any reason to believe he had the nerve or ability to go after a forsaken (it is highly unlikely, were he the killer, that he could've known Asmodean was shielded).<br /><br />As for the &quot;obvious&quot; criteria... We had seen multiple scenes of Graendal, Rahvin, Sammael, and Lanfear plotting to trap Rand.  They planned on goading Rand into attacking Sammael, at which point the other three would swoop in for the kill.  This conspiracy was well fleshed out by RJ.<br /><br />But Lanfear threw a tantrum and was &quot;killed&quot;, and Rand decided to go after Rahvin first.  To me, the most obvious choice (at the time) for the murderer(s) were the remaining members of the conspiracy, who went strangely unmentioned -- Sammael and Grandal.  We have since discovered that Sammael didn't know Asmodean was dead (in ACOS??), leaving Graendal.<br /><br />It passes the &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; criteria because at that point in the story, the reader should be expecting the pay-off from the conspiracy plotline.  If it wasn't a member of the conspiracy that smacked down Asmodean, then why did RJ bother with all that about the conspiracy?<br /><br />- The Other Boot


created: 2004-01-04 00:11:00
subject: <b>Who would Agatha Cristie say did it?</b>
body:
I'm starting to lean towards Lanfear on this (you'll see why below).  Both Etzel and Columbo put forward great arguements for their case.  And this has got to be some kind of record- most blackboard posts in the shortest amount of time?<br /><br />There is one thing that I think people are missing.  There are questions as to how Lanfear got out of Finnland.  Keeping to the KISS principle there is a simple solution.  She asked the Finns to let her out!  She may have even been willing to accept a higher price to be let out at a certain time.  This could hold for whether she died and was then released, or was released and then died.  <br /><br />The Finns seem able to do just about anything, both for their wishes granted and prices paid. And what would be the ultimate price for Lanfear?  Her looks and power, the two things she was most proud of.  They could have twisted time so it seemed to her like she had been there for ages, even though Westlands time she was released only a few hours later.  This could be a parallel to why we haven't seen Moirane yet.  To her, the most precious commodity is time, and even if she asked to be let out to help Rand, the Finns could interpret that to let her out just before TG.  Just like Mat's most precious commodity was his life and carefree spirit; his life was nearly taken and there is a definite damper on how much fun he seems to have anymore.<br /><br />Just a final note on this.  Lanfear's new body could have been either before or after she got out of Finnland- her new name doesn't prove anything.  I mean, if the DO says call someone something, who's going to argue?  But the drop in power must have been the Finns.  If the DO could drop someone's power, he could probably raise it too.  And if he/she/it could raise power I have no doubt it would have been done by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 00:20:05
subject: <b>Um... I got sidetracked</b>
body:
I was going to say I'm leaning toward Lanfear because she could have asked to be released at a certain time, then killed Asmodean.  Then the DO killed her and put her in a different body to punish her (the whole looks thing again, and explaining how Asmodean recognized her).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 00:36:43
subject: <b>Columbo, Columbo, Columbo</b>
body:
<i>You dissapoint me. You haven't responded to my rebuttal of your earlier comments and now you've resorted to this? How do you ever hope to gain the respect of others at this site.</i><br /><br />You have never responded to my posts Columbo.  None of your previous comments on this blackboard mention my name or even directly refer to my statements.  I even went back and re-read your posts.  It's you who hasn't responded.<br /><br />I've responded to all comments the Green Gaidin persona has made in response to me, so how can you say I haven't responded to rebuttal.<br /><br /><i>You've lost face with your last comments</i><br /><br />That may be your opinion, and yes I've been a little snotty at times, but hey, who hasn't?  I will stand by the fact that Taim is more likely than Lanfear.  There is actually a good case for Taim, espescially since your interpretation of &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; could easily apply to him as well.  My intial reaction upon reading the section was Taim (although I will admit LoC was the first book I read).  <br /><br />Hasn't RJ said he dropped hints in later books to identify the killer?  I've seen things that can be interpreted as hints for Graendel, Sammael, Slayer, and even Taim, but not Lanfear.<br /><br />Please, before you accuse me of refusing to respond, make a response first, or let me know which post you mean because I honestly don't see one.  You've seen on the message boards I will admit when I'm wrong.  If you check my theory that's been posted (Cupbearer General) you'll see I'm not hesitant about responding, although I do get a little aggressive when people use the same point again and again when its already been intelligently disputed.<br /><br />That last post was more in response to all the different comments that have come up suggesting just about everyone in the story.  That and you're definition of intuitively obvious.<br /><br />Challenge me and I'll answer.  Please, continue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 01:53:26
subject: <b>I just dont think so</b>
body:
Another thing that pokes holes in this theory is if Lanfear was right down the hall from the woman who slept with Rand why were there not 2 unsolved murders. I don&#8217;t think she would kill Asmo then let Avi live do you?  And how do you leave a place thru a smoldering hunk of melting doorway?


created: 2004-01-04 02:43:07
subject: <b>Slayer vs. Lanfear</b>
body:
<b> you again continue down the same path. Your trying vainly to hang on to the idea that Slayer was involved. Moridin 2000 ask why you believe he is the shadow's assasin? Why the lack of response? You have made Slayer more than he is. </b><br /><br />Well, actually I explained several times why Slayer could be seen as an assassin up till the end of TFoH; I even wrote a theory on this topic a few days ago...<br /><br />Anyway, once again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />The connection between Slayer and the Shadow was clear. Isam was mentioned in the Dark Prophecies, by Trollocs, Fain and a Myrddraal. We knew that he was captured as a child by the Shadow. <br />In TSR, ch.34, it is said that Slayer killed Janduin, Rand&#8217;s father and after all an Aiel chief in the Blight. <br />Birgitte tells that Slayer is an old evil; the wolves fear him and say he is very dangerous.<br /><br />It is said by Slayer and Fain that he brought the Shadowspawn, especially Gray Men, to the Two Rivers to hunt the &#8220;renegade&#8221; Fain as Slayer expresses. Fain&#8217;s Myrddraal, who could be considered as a renegade too, fears that Slayer will find him.  <br />Who else should have sent Slayer if not the Shadow? <br /><br />Slayer says that he knows Perrin and that some people want his death. <br />He certainly means the Forsaken and that is one reason why he is hunting Perrin in TAR. <br />In TSR, ch.39, Slayer also tries to kill Nynaeve in TAR with an arrow.<br /><br />We also know that it is dangerous to go to TAR in the flesh since you lose a a part of your humanity. <br />Isam has a cold scent that is barely human. Thus we could conclude that Slayer can enter TAR in the flesh. <br />And this is even supported by a statement Hopper gives in TSR, ch.28, &#8220;You chase Slayer, Young Bull. He is here in the flesh [TAR], and he can kill.&#8221;<br />For example in the end of TDR or TFoH we see channeler enter &amp; leave TAR in the flesh at any point in the real world. <br />The only thing we did not know was <i> why </i> Slayer can enter TAR in the flesh. <br />Since he is no channeler we must conclude that he got the ability maybe from the Shadow or maybe has a ter&#8217;angreal.<br /><br />Then there were two other murders, in the Stone of Tear and the WT. <br />In the first case, Moiraine says it could not have been a Gray Man,they could not have entered the cell, the Shadow must have resources they don't know yet. <br />In the second someone tries to kill Nynaeve &amp; Egwene and a Gray Man is killed but no one is found. <br /><br />If you connect all these clues (given in the books up to TFoH!) it was obvious that Slayer is an assassin or if you want a bounty hunter for the Shadow.<br /><br />Therefore it only makes sense that he killed Asmodean. He had the ability and a motive. <br />It fits with the murder scene and what RJ said about the it.<br /><br />Then in the books after TFoH other possible candidates are ruled out. <br />We get to know that the DO apparently ordered the killing so that Taim could join Rand. <br /><br />Finally in WH we get a Slayer POV which actually proves what we could figure way back: Slayer is indeed the Shadow&#8217;s hitman and did the murders. <br />He is known and ordered by the DO or the Forsaken (that is confirmed by a RJ answer, too), got several abilities from the DO, e.g. to enter and leave TAR when he wants, we even hear how his sudden appearance creates a panic similar to Asmo&#8217;s and he shows not very much respect for channelers.<br /><br />Even in CoT we see Slayer's work again on the Seal thieves.<br /><br />Now tell me, Columbo, how you can think that Slayer is not the best possibility? (but Lanfear who was captured by the Finn at the time of Asmo&#8217;s death...) <br /><br /><b> Also you again misrepresent what I've tried to convey in my theory and again brush aside RJ's qoute. I included the whole passage, broke it down into pieces and explained how RJ set the scene. I also showed that its a reoccuring thing that RJ does. Proof, not assumptions. </b><br /><br />No, as showed several times it suits all of RJ&#8217;s comments (obvious for him; only one fan wrote the correct answer; clues to figure it in the books up to TFoH). <br /><br />Besides, RJ rather makes puzzles, a clue in this chapter, a hint in another book, etc.<br /><br /><b> The reason we enjoy Rj's work is the fact that he does chose his words carefully. You cannot continue to argue this fact! The qoute was well thought out as everything he says and does is as pertains to his work. </b><br /><br />You should really concentrate on the clues in the books first. <br />Then you can additionally take comments by RJ. <br />But not interpret a comment of RJ in a way that it contradicts with what we read and other comments and build  a theory out of it. <br /><br /><b> Lanfear was well known not to mention she had motive. She implanted Asmodean and what I've down is shown you that she's also responsible for relieving him of his post. Why would I as the reader assume she is dead? She went through the doorway, big deal she is Lanfear! Mat made it. I assumed at the time that she and Moraine would return at some point. </b><br /><br />Whatever you thought in TFoH, in WH Cyndane tells that she was held by the Aelfinn &amp; Eelfinn. She certainly got no wishes from them for destroying the Finn&#8217;s doorway. <br />Otherwise why had not also Moiraine got wishes (she knew about the Finn as well)?<br />What were the other wishes?<br />If Lanfear wished to come back to Randland from the Eelfinn, why does she says that she was hold by both Finn races? <br /><br />And to the scene, how could she know that Asmo would enter the room and be prepared to kill him? <br />Why did she let his body vanish or killed him with balefire if she was so angry about him?<br />Why didn&#8217;t she kill Aviendha or Rand, too?<br /><br />Since I figure that you can&#8217;t answer these questions, it&#8217;s clear that Lanfear was first a prisoner of the Finn (like Moiraine is still as you apparently admit), then died somehow, was resurrected by the DO and put into a mind-trap. <br /><br />Slayer was the killer, not Lanfear, Graendal, Taim or anybody else.<br />


