# w_comment

created: 2005-11-01 08:42:54
subject: <b>The limiting of influence makes sense...</b>
body:
Simply because of the fact that the longer live-span (100s of years !) of channelers would give them FAR to much time and opportunity to encroach power, their channeling ability notwithstanding.


created: 2005-11-02 10:53:11
subject: <b>nice work but.....</b>
body:
a windfinder that was forced to work for a sailmistress that in her opionion had no chace of ever raiseing above her station, could use the power to 'dispose' of her sail mistress ,if she was so inclined, so she could have a beter chance of gaining higher rank even if it meens starting from the bottom again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 12:20:01
subject: <b>She could, yes...</b>
body:
..but the same could be said of anyone. Sailmistresses, Cargomasters, other crewmembers... Sure, Windfinders can channel, but stranger things have happened at sea. They can be found out as easily as anyone else. Murdering your way to the top has risks for anyone and is a very extreme way of doing it. Even Darkfriends kill with extreme caution, so I can't see this as a major loophole.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 20:59:32
subject: <b>All well and good, but....</b>
body:
Do twisted ones and neverborns ply the oceans? Do the Asha'aman and Aes Sedai not have a way to move troops and supplies faster than any ship?<br /><br />Do the Sea Folk have any worth?<br /><br />But oh those Sea Folk women, the way they move....The young lordlings will be out carousing tonight...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 17:27:06
subject: <b>Very nice.</b>
body:
I liked it a lot. Thanks for all the hard work. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-22 00:16:38
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
I think you covered pert near everything! Great read as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 06:01:10
subject: <b>Not to demean your work, but...</b>
body:
Most of this info is already in the FAQ, if not all. But in many cases you only write one interpretation to the viewings/dreams/prophecys where many were found. You do this without giving clues why you prefer the given interpretation over others.<br />Well, the FAQ didnt actually link Prophecy/Viewings/Dreams together, so there might be merit to your work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 17:41:10
subject: <b>One quick note...</b>
body:
Rand has already received his second hurt at the hands of women who can channel, he had his hand burnt off. The first was when he was captured by the WT.


created: 2005-10-31 19:33:06
subject: <b>the choice</b>
body:
I think Mat will have to choose between Egwene and Elayne, not knowing that if he chooses Egwene he will doom everyone, because Elayne of the Royal House of Andor is the key to the Light's victory.<br />Imagine it! Egwene, whom he's known for years, from his home village of Emond's Field, weighed up against Elayne, a spoiled noble brat with her nose up in the air. <br />But he has to choose. He picks Elayne and condemns Egwene, who is then sentenced to something horrible. Death or perhaps conversion by a circle of 13 myrdraal. But at the last moment she is rescued (Rand?, Gawyn? Galad?)<br />Role on Book 12!


created: 2005-10-31 22:24:09
subject: <b>Eh? No.</b>
body:
Elayne isn't the key to the victory of the Light.  Rand, son of Tigraine, Queen of Andor before Morgase, is the key to the victory of the Light.  His claim to the throne is actually stronger than Morgase's lineage-wise, and he's most certainly of the Royal Line of Andor, in half at least.


created: 2005-11-01 03:16:56
subject: <b>I disagree with the above</b>
body:
I dont think mat will have to choose between Elayne and Eqwene at all. I believe that the choice will have to do with his part in the resque of Moiraine. I think that something will happenduring that resque and that Mat will have to make a choice to resque either Moiraine or another Aes Sedai. I am not sure who it will be but it will be someone mat knows or else it would be no contest.


created: 2005-11-01 04:07:51
subject: <b>Cadsuane...</b>
body:
Sure, some Ash'amans are arrogant but at least they have ties to the real world unlike the Aes Sedai's. also How can Cadsuane teach something she has no clue about.


created: 2005-11-01 12:56:53
subject: <b>Mat's choice</b>
body:
I think that the two Aes Sedai Mat has to choose between are Egwene and Moiraine.  Mat has a serious hero complex, and he has been determined to make Egwene (and Nynaeve) realize their foolishness since The Dragon Reborn.  Since reading Thoms letter and agreeing to help in Operation Rescue Moiraine, he is torn between going through with his promise and going another way.  After all, Mat has very keen survival instincts and there is a strong possibility he'll die if he helps rescue Moiraine.  I think the bloody eye is a result of the bargain he makes with the Finns.  They require a price.  They already took his life, so what else can they take?  Have two good and working eyes is very important for a general and a gambler.  It's a sacrifice for Mat.  But this way, he fulfills the prophecy of giving half the light of the world to save the world.  By recusing Moiraine, Mat is saving the world since Rand cannot succeed with out her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Madness in great ones must not unwatched go.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 15:28:40
subject: <b>agree</b>
body:
Yah  Matt is eithor chosing between going to save Egwene from an attack on the white tower by his wife, or keep the promise and go with thom to save Morraine.  He looses an eye doing it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 22:59:03
subject: <b>Beggar's staff</b>
body:
Yet another allusion to Dune. Once his time came, Paul exiled himself into the desert and everyone thought him dead. In the next book he came back as a beggar. Seems plausible the way this is going for Rand.<br /><br />BTW, nice job with this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 11:59:20
subject: <b>Random thought, sorta confirmed by your post</b>
body:
re: In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.<br /><br />I've had the idea that not saidin or saidar is necessary to seal the bore but the TP, specially after Rand and Moridin got linked.<br />So what if Rand loses from Moridin? His blood being spilled on SG changes Moridin and sets him free from the Shadow?<br />Since Moridin (still) got access to the TP, he can seal the bore with the power of the DO himself. <br />Might sound weird, but that might explain how they were able to find the new power source in AoL as well.<br />The bore radiated the residu of the TP used to close it.<br />These are just random thoughts but one never knows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-11-02 14:45:36
subject: <b>Lan's future and Rand's death</b>
body:
<i>M: Lan: &#8220;Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.&#8221;</i><br />This is Lan's own story, not a prophesy of the future.  Lan had the sword placed in his hands while he was still a baby in a crib.  (Sometimes Min's viewings reveal something about a person, not necessarily his or her future.)<br /><br />***<br /><br />I'm not sure that Rand will die and be resurrected.  I think it's possible that just *parts* of Rand will die - the parts that come from other men in his head.<br /><br />Thank you for putting all the prophesies, dreams, and visions together.


created: 2005-11-02 20:44:49
subject: <b>Perrin not Elayne....</b>
body:
Perrin will save Rand from thei second hurting.<br /><br /><br />Also...Kasper11 Rand's lose of his hand is not the second hurting.For two reasons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />errin has not felt the need to be near Rand as he did before the first hurting and Rand's hand is not a horrible hurt.During his first hurting he was beaten day and night,stuffed in to a box,and recieved clostraphobia.Losing his left hand is in no way as deveststing as all of that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Matrium Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Prince of the Ravens <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> General of Sharan an Calhar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Time to dance with Jak'O the Shadows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 21:57:21
subject: <b>the staff</b>
body:
the staff is also a biblical referance, to moses and his staff to part the sea.<br /><br />obviously the beggar's staff is used by rand to do something great.<br /><br />ima take a shot in the dark here, but could the beggar's staff be moiraine's battered staff from book 1?<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-03 08:11:41
subject: <b>Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something...</b>
body:
<b>M: &quot;It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.&quot;</b><br /><br />By now I thought this would be fairly clear. She will teach them &quot;with great power comes great responsibility;&quot; to embrace a future that assumes life without madness (stop being so macabre and start planning for retirement today); and to both be accepted by the world and to ensure there are no more darkfriends in their number they will ALL have to swear the 3 oaths on the oath rod. Laugh and cry is but a part of embracing hope and life. Moraine&#8217;s return will be the catalyst of Rands conflagration of understanding and softening of his heart. It's pretty clear to me. Doesn't everyone else see it?


created: 2005-11-05 14:14:38
subject: <b>Pretty Farfetched, but...</b>
body:
&#8220;Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.&#8221;<br /><br />This is a pretty simple theory that just ties a few others together.  First, I think Logain mounting the black stone symbolizes his glory, and perhaps the black stone represents BT.  Rand's body symbolizes his death, but when his face breaks apart, it symbolizes that he didn't actually die, but he staged his death.  So, in short, Rand will stage his own death which somehow gives Logain glory.  I have no idea what Logains laughing about, though...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-07 06:38:20
subject: <b>The masks...</b>
body:
I think I said this elsewhere, but I think the masks are the al'Thor half and LTT half of his psyche. One of those masks falls away and all that's left is Rand.<br /><br />I think either LTT's going to win the battle for control of his mind (necessary because he has the skills to reseal the bore) or the two halves of the personality are going to merge. Which I don't know. I have patience, though. I'll RAFO when the time comes.


created: 2005-11-08 19:45:31
subject: <b>Beggar's Staff</b>
body:
Completely unsubstantiated but...<br /><br />Between them Moiraine and Cadsuane will change Rand. Too much has been made about it for it not to be a change from 'hard' to 'strong'. Cadsuane counted how many times Rand expected outright obedience in his conversation with Darlin etc in KoD.<br /><br />Linking this with the beggar's staff...Rand is going to realise that he cant expect everyone to obey him just because he is the Dragon Reborn. He needs to approach all the factions and beg them to unite. This is strength rather than hardness; knowing the need to bend the neck and ask help of all the factions for the forthcoming Last Battle...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-12 07:58:27
subject: <b>Some random thoughts</b>
body:
A couple of the big things I think we can all expect in the next book (in no set order, except for TG):<br /><br />1.  Matt and Thom will end up saving Moiraine.  His choice will be between that, and taking the Band with him to save Egwene.  He makes his choice, and loses his eye doing so.  That takes care of that loose end.  Perhaps he still sends the Band to the tower w/o him.  And by saving Egwene, I don't mean rescuing her, but helping out in what will obviously be an attack on the White Tower by the Seanchan.<br /><br />Now for some things which aren't as obvious, but I still feel will happen this way.<br /><br />1.  It seems obvious Rand and Moridin will duke it out with the power.  After all, you don't bring him back, make him more powerful, and then just have him nothing but a pawn.  I personally think it could go something like this:  Rand and Moridin begin fighting.  Rand loses control of the power to LTT.  But perhaps at this same time, Moridin somehow like...connects to him.  The only one who is able to stop this is Alivia, who helps Rand die.  But really it isn't Rand it's Moridin/LTT.  Rand himself is alive.  OR, maybe at some point during this fight, or the one with the DO, Rand loses control of the power to LTT.  Telemon goes crazy, and does what needs doing to defeat the DO, but (remember, LTT himself is still insane)the price is paid by burning out.    The loss of the power is so great for LTT, that it phsyically hurts him.  So there is pain and agony, and Alivia goes over and essentially &quot;helps him die&quot;.  But remember, she's really powerful, and perhaps she finds a way to do so (perhaps with Ny in the picture as well, healing at the same time Alivia is killing him, though that's off the wall) without actually destroying his body.  Hence, LTT is officially dead and gone from Rand Al'Thor's body.<br /><br />2.  At some point, Rand will meet up with Aviendha, and sleep with her again.  This is what will make for the FOUR babies.  However, remember they are healthy, but SOMETHING is...not right.  Or just very different?  I think he'll meet up with her early on in the book, and do the deed.  But as for what's not right, it will be as though each babe comes from a different guy (Rand, LTT, Moridin, and perhaps somebody else?).  <br /><br />On a side note, is it possible that these babes play a big role somewhere?  With Aviendha's four, and Elayne's two, we have six.  But what if Min has one?  That makes seven.  Aren't there seven seals to the Dark One's prison?  What if, in the prophecies that speak of the Dragon Reborn's blood on the rocks, it doesn't mean his own from his own body, but that of the blood flowing through his children?  His bloodline, so to speak?  Talk about an absolute price to pay!  Remember, much has been made about how Elayne and her babes are safe...at least until they are born.  It is stated over and over in the last couple books that after that they may not be safe at all.<br /><br />3.  There seems to be some confusion as to whom Taim is.  Jordan has said that he IS NOT Demandred.  But...Taim seems one powerful fellow for a non-forsaken.  Still, for now lets assume Jordan is right, that Demandred is someone else.  So what happens with Taim?  I think we'll see here that Logain and his/Rand's men come up at some point against Taim's.  I think Logain wins.  And I think when he steps over the body, it isn't Rand's body, but that of Taim.  A puppet, one of the shadow, and in imitation of the Dragon.<br /><br />4.  Which brings me to Demandred, and who is he?  I want to say that it IS Taim, but I don't think that's the case.  We know it's somebody that supposedly is pretty close to Rand.  Somebody we've already been introduced to, whom Jordan feels we should have smelled out by now.  I can only think that perhaps it's Bashere.  As much as I don't WANT it to be, it could be.  It would actually make sense, and definitely help explain more of Semi and her trap for Rand.  Granted there were others with him, but that's not to say Bashere didn't meet Semi on his own somewhere.  If it's not him, I honestly don't know who it is...perhaps one of the Asha'man?  But who?  It doesn't seem enough attention is paid to any of them.  Except what about the guy who pulled out Callandor, under Rand's orders?  <br /><br />All I know is that there is something dark or something evil in Bashere's future, or what not.  Another long shot, but perhaps somewhere along the way, Galina is freed, and makes her way to Rand.  She lies to Bashere, saying his daughter has been killed by Perrin in his own rescue attempt of her.  Outraged, Bashere turns on Rand, and betrays him or tries to kill him.  And it is the sudden appearance of Perrin who saves Rand (thus a second time).  <br /><br />Could it be that Logain is actually Demandred?  I'm not sure how this would work out, really.  I don't remember enough to recall if things stack up the way they should, but Logain stepping over Rand could actually be Demandred, who has just eliminated the paper puppet (Taim) of the Shadow.  We know that Taim is in some way a darkfriend.  But perhaps he's been built up this whole time only to be replaced by the true one to fear, Logain?  All that power and glory that Min saw in her viewing could have been past glories, from another age.  Wasn't Demandred to some degree a noble?  Could that explain Logain's symbol of his own House?<br /><br />5.  My guess for the end, is that many of the different groups cancel each other out.  While I believe the power DOES play a role in the defeat of the Dark One, I think Rand may live, but find himself burnt out.  It is at this point that Padan Fain chooses to strike his hardest.  Without the power, Rand must use his sword to defeat Fain.  I still feel that Fain will play a HUGE role, even if it's not this one. Especially with his extended absence.  I think Jordan is looking to hit us with Fain w/o seeing it come.<br /><br />These are all just opinions that have popped into my head after reading some of these other posts.


created: 2005-11-13 18:27:44
subject: <b>Good job.</b>
body:
I'm not sure I agree with all of your assessments, but I do have to say that though all of these things may be referenced elsewhere, it is an impressive compilation.<br /><br />Let the haters hate, I like it.


created: 2005-11-26 20:17:07
subject: <b>Death</b>
body:
What if the connection between Moridin and Rand, as is stated causes them to have to fight for control of their bodies, and Moridin is trapped within Rand's body. He dies thus the blood of the Dragon is spilled upon the rocks of Shayol Ghul, yet Rand lives on within Moridins body.  Also note that it says the blood of the Dragon would be spilled, what if this is Lews Therin's descendant, not Rand.  It said the Dragon's blood, not the Dragon Reborn's.


created: 2005-12-01 23:09:59
subject: <b>I disagree, and here's why:</b>
body:
I remember a bit in &quot;A Cup of Kaf&quot;, or earlier in the Suroth PoV where it is mentionned that a Banner-General, or someone in the Blood...some high-ranked fellow anyway was planning an attack on Tar Valon. Now, what if that attack is already under way, for all we know, the Seanchan could be sending a naval force transporting troops that will disembark somewhere between Arad Doman and Saldaea and then make east for Tar Valon, since the population numbers are quite sparse not many people would detect them, if any. And it is that attack force that will shake the Tower to its roots or whatever the quote says. /Or/ the Sul'dam&lt;sp?&gt;/damane teams that were sent back by Nynaeve or one of the other Sedai(assuming a woman made the gateway) could have learnt how to make gateways and then they would have thought it to the other damane and whatnot. That way the Seanchan could just gate a force to  Tar Valon.<br /><br />Now, let's assume this has already happened by the time Tuon returns to Ebou Dar the Seanchan force has already been sent. She learns of that, and let's just assume that she decides to ally with Rand or Rand pops in and allies with the Seanchan. She might want to stop that force, so with that said she sends someone to order the person in command of that army to halt their attack. Perhaps Tylee or someone else.<br /><br /><br />I know this thing assumes a lot of stuff, but so do quite a few theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I just think that Tuon's Seanchan won't be the one doing the attacking, if for no other reason than the Seanchan are about the coolest faction ever. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />So, Mat. I am hoping, repeat hoping, will reuinite with Tuon almost immediately after he rescues Moiraine minus one eye. This can be several ways, and hopefully he will come back just in time to see Rand and Tuon arguing over the alliance/truce bit. Now, in the back of my head, I'm thinking the Gholam will pop in to stop that meeting and try to kill either Tuon or Rand, or both, and Mat will once and for all get rid of the Gholam. I repeat once more, hopefully. And who knows, it might just be that the Finns don't take the eyes (I'm thinking Noal, assuming he goes, will die in the process of the rescue) and he loses the eye fighting the Gholam. So anyway, baddabam, alliance signed, Seanchan is sent to stop the force attacking the force(check above)<br /><br />I'll say once more, for the extreme most part, this is nothing but wishful thinking. But who knows, I might just be on to something. I just want the Seanchan to not be whupped and all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Self-appointed #1 Mat, Tuon and Seanchan lover and protector. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-11 16:51:53
subject: <b>The Reason For the Amyrlin's Anger</b>
body:
Quote: &#8220;Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger.&#8221;<br /><br />&quot;Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chairs owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken&quot; FoH, Page 300, Chapter 15<br /><br />The bottom quote here is a dream Egwene had a long time ago which can help us figure out exactly why the Amyrlin will be angry at Rand.  Its pretty obvious that the chair she's talking about is the Amyrlin Seat.  So, Rand, possibly after the tower is reunited, will try and join the two towers together, and try and take the leadership of the united towers.<br /><br />The main thing I've noticed in this quote though, is the 'murderously angry' part.  When I see murderously, it kinda makes me think Elaida before Egwene, although that makes no sense because I doubt Rand would try to unite with Elaida as Amyrlin.  <br /><br />The point, though, is that Rand is going to try to take control of either the WT or WT+BT combined.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-20 10:32:12
subject: <b>Helping him die</b>
body:
Rand &quot;knows&quot; he has to die at Shadar Logoth to fulfil the prophecy about his blood shed there. Alivia has to &quot;help&quot; Rand die. If Alivia kills Rand there at his request, that meets both criteria.<br /><br />If someone gets hold of the wrong end of the stick and balefires Alivia, Rand will come back to life (like Matt, Aviendha and Asmodean at the end of tFoH).  I'd guess that the balefirer will be Nynaeve - we know from tDR that she can produce balefire, and we know (numerous references in CoT and KoD) she is determined to hang around Rand to protect him from Alivia.


created: 2006-07-09 06:15:12
subject: <b>Buddyoverthere, Ashleyswarder, Sarahlynn...</b>
body:
SOMEWHERE its said that Min's viewings are ALWAYS about the future. I'm pretty sure its in the blog. Therefore, Lan's 7 towers is NOT his past, but probably the revival of Malkier. Also the same applies to the Demandred/Logain thing. And last, but not least, I doubt that Asha'man will have to take the three oaths. At the least the Oaths will be different. Perhaps something more along the lines of not to use their power to begin violence(eg, only to defend or guard), to defend those who cannot defend themselves and possibly a form of either obedience in battle, or to prevent darkfriends the ultra-uber oaths of To not remove the oaths and/or to not be a darkfriend. Maybe the first of those two is redundant... permanent lifespan decrease sucks, but maybe just an oath not to become or be a darkfriend would prevent the removal of the oaths? Anyway, the first two oaths would kind of go along with the whole name of Asha'man in general, guardians.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-20 14:50:03
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
Rand will meet Moridin in the Last Battle. Alivia will distract Rand (perhaps flash him with her 400 year old goodies). In shock Rand will lose control of the Force and LTT will take over. Moridin will seize the moment and balefire Rand. Alivia will turn around and balefire Moridin. This will bring Rand back to life but w/o Moridin in his head any longer. Since Moridin is removed from the thread, he can no longer occupy a place in Rand's fractured mind. LTT will stay dead.<br /><br />The Bond with the girls will be broken (thank the light).<br />Avienda's kids will be healthy but a litle off b/c for a moment there they were reversed from the pattern (as their father was unmade and then made again). An immaculate conception as it were.


created: 2007-01-22 02:25:15
subject: <b>Balefire revisted and Dragons Blood</b>
body:
I like Bella- Queen of Narnia's idea that Rand will be brought back because of bale fire. Creates a little bit of a paradox though, because if Moridin/Ishmael has battled against Rand/Dragon time and again and then Ishmael was completly taken out of the pattern how could the fight continue? <br /><br />Also about the Dragons blood, Malkier3 wrote:<br /><b>&quot;Also note that it says the blood of the Dragon would be spilled, what if this is Lews Therin's descendant, not Rand. It said the Dragon's blood, not the Dragon Reborn's. &quot;</b> <br /><br />Lews Therin killed ALL of his family when he went insane. That is why he is also called Kin Slayer.


created: 2007-06-22 01:59:07
subject: <b>About that staff..</b>
body:
I think we might be missing the obvious, here. When you're blind (whether actually blind, or just have your eyes covered in cloth), you can't see where you're going, and a staff might just be of some use preventing you from bumping into things and walking off cliffs. No?<br /><br />And as for that cloth, we already know that something is wrong with Rand's vision. Maybe he really is going blind, maybe his eyes just need rest, or maybe he doesn't want Lews Therin or Moridin to be able to see through his eyes?


created: 2008-11-21 13:49:11
subject: <b>Mat giving up an eye to save the world</b>
body:
I would like to suggest that perhaps one of the Aes Sedai on the scale [in reference to &#8220;Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&#8221;] is Moraine. He will have to give up his eye in the battle to rescue her, which will in turn save the world. Thoughts?


created: 2005-10-31 19:35:55
subject: <b>I agree it was most likely Demandred....</b>
body:
and for the reason you stated; to test Rand, his knowledge and defenses.<br /><br />I would also like to point out that there are some interesting things that are developing at these meetings, too. This is the second time that we have seen Graendal being the first to arrive and prepare the setting. Since her introduction to Shaidar Haran, she appears to be being used to arrange little deceptions, and to put the other Forsaken slightly off-balance with her choice of surroundings. (Demmy noticed her over-reaction at the tea party.) <br /><br />I really like the fact that RJ has given these meetings from the pov's of two different Forsaken, as well. It allows us some insight into the way they think and reveals juicy bits of info.<br /><br />On a side note, it's also a little funny that once again we see Graendal stating that another of the Forsaken <i>must</i> be dead. <i>We</i> know RJ said Sammael is toast, but she has no way of verifying this. This might add some fuel to the &quot;Who Killed Asmo&quot; debate. Enough time has passed that Sammy could have been transmigrated into a new body, and the DO has kept this secret from his followers. The extra chairs are certainly there for a purpose, and perhaps only the DO knows who is dead and gone for good, and who has been brought back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 20:23:30
subject: <b>This is the first theroy I have ever really disagreed with</b>
body:
I never thought for a second that the person impersonating sammuel was Padin Fain.  Fain can make himself or others appear however he wants, can make illussions.  Myadrall fear him.  He can command the darkspawn.  He loves lies and deciet. He has nothing to fear in the ways.  And if he is tied to Mashadar since their run in togethor then he may have inherited some of Sammuel traits.  Explains why he took them into Ways.<br /><br />Anyway, I think he is way more likely then any of the forsaken<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 20:38:23
subject: <b>Agree with your theory</b>
body:
As I did on the MB.<br /><br />However, we don`t know whether Osan`gar is gone for good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 20:50:39
subject: <b>it's faintastic</b>
body:
well yes it could be demad but everyone knows hes too busy being taim to bother........lol. for some irrational reason i think it was fain . simply because he has been absent from several books knoe(at least i think)taim has become more powerful since sams death and i think this is a device to hint at what he has become without showing what he is. think alien and jaws you dont really see it till the end<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">SELF APPOINTED #1 HATER OF TUON <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />I DONT USUALLY CONDONE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.. BUT.. I'VE GOT A SLEDGE HAMMER FOR MAT IF HE'S WILLING TO DO IT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 23:56:40
subject: <b>You eliminate more that you should</b>
body:
You have eliminated more than is justified.<br /><br />Eliminating Ravhin and Bel'al is justified, as they were killed with balefire.<br /><br />Sammael is dead, but there is no certainty that he has not been reincarnated. RJ has not said whether victims of Mashadar can be reincarnated. I can imagine Sammael wearing a mask of mirrors to recreate his image.<br /><br />Asmodean was 'twisted by his weakness' when Ravhin was 'dead in his pride'. Why would the dark one specifically say 'dead' for Ravhin, but only 'twisted' for Asmodean? There is no proof that Asmodean is truly dead, and even if he died, he may have been reincarnated in some manner.<br /><br />Aginor, also, could have been reincarnated for the second time. It is unlikely, but not impossible.<br /><br />Mesaana should not have been dismissed so lightly. She is shaken because she cannot be sure that Alviarin didn't recognise her. That would not stop her from commanding trollocs, etc.<br /><br />Semirhage, also, should not have been dismissed. Throughout KoD, we saw Semirhage's plans as she worked them through. It is possible that the trolloc attack was part of that plan.<br /><br />Cyndane can be dismissed, as she is well and truly cowed. Moghedien, on the other hand, might very well have been the impersonator. At the Cleansing, she vows that, if she survives, she will never be cowardly again. She survived, but all we have seen is her at Moridin's side. Surely she has done something since the cleansing, and this just might be the ticket.<br /><br />Here's a thought - Graendal's &quot;gown was dark gray now, concealing everything&quot;. Could it be that she and Sammael are still working together? Could she know something the others don't?<br /><br />That doesn't mean your conclusion is wrong, but perhaps a greater consideration of all forsaken is in order.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 01:15:18
subject: <b>I agree with Aielyn</b>
body:
RJ said that Sammael was dead, but he never actually said that he couldn't come back. Even if you take him saying that Sammael is toast to mean that he can't come back, RJ know how to talk like an Aes Sedai, and that just means that as Sammael he is dead but might have been given another name.


created: 2005-11-01 04:18:34
subject: <b>Sammael</b>
body:
RJ did say Sammy was toast but really, why wouldn't the DO resurect him? compare Sammy's actions to the other Forsaken that has been punished and/or resurected. Sammael failed and was disobidient yes, but so was Lanfear/Cydaene and she was brought back. <br />Why wouldn't the DO bring back one of his top generals. As it stands now, all the DO has is Demandred to lead his troops.


created: 2005-11-01 10:04:09
subject: <b>can it be fain?</b>
body:
Question we have seen fain commanding myrandal but could he command that number?  He doesn't have the mark but he is certainly powerful.  What did you discount this possibility kcf am I missing something?


created: 2005-11-01 10:37:36
subject: <b>some responses...</b>
body:
<b>LitN</b><br /><br />Glad you agree. I too love these forsaken meetings and the fact that we see them from different POV's. Another interesting point is that it is mentioned that there have been several meetings like this since the cleaning - so they meet regularly. This kind of coordination was significantly lacking before events leading to the cleansing. It will be fun to see where this goes. <br /><br />I'll go ahead and address Sammael here, since several people mention him. Frankly, I don't think the DO could transmigrate his soul, but we don't know. Sammael was taken by mashadar - which has been said to <b>consume</b> souls. If mashadar does indeed consume a soul, than there is nothing left for the DO to transmigrate. Moridin could be lying about not knowing about Sammael, but I doubt it, and I find it unlikely that the DO would transmigrate a soul without letting the Neab'lis knowledge - Moridin has been involved in every transmigration that we know of. By far the simplest explanation for what we know is that Sammael is dead, gone, and not comming back.<br /><br /><b>Borderlander</b> and others<br /><br />Fain - a lot of people think Fain did this, and I really don't agree for many reasons. First, Fain was last seen in Far Madding - yes he may have been able to travel the ways to get to the Blight and order trollocs, but he would also have to know where to go, and to have gotten there in a rather quick period of time (at the time of the meeting in the garden, only a couple weeks have passed since Rand was in Far Madding). <br /><br />Fain has shown the ability to break and command Myddraal when given sufficient time. But can he command hundreds? Thousands? The answer to this is no. The 'mark of the forsaken' compels shadowspawn to obey - Fain has no such mark, <i>and</i> is considered an enemy of the shadow (Moridin wants him dead). Furthermore, Moridin flat out says it must be a Chosen. The logistics of Fain waltzing into the Blight and ordering an army of 100,000 trollocs and Fades into the ways don't add up.<br /><br />Motive - Fain has no motive to do this, and it doesn't match with any of his prior methods that we have seen in the series. When Fain works with anyone, they are relatively small groups that he can corrupt quickly and totally. Also, Fain has stated many times (most recently in Far Madding) that <b>he</b> wants to kill Rand and he jealously guards this 'privaledge'. It just does not fit for him to order shadowspawn to do this for him.<br /><br /><b>Jofraz</b><br /><br />We don't know if Osan'gar is gone for good, but I think we can correctly surmise that it is too soon for him to return. Only a couple weeks (at most) have passed since his death when the meeting in the gardens occurs, and from what we have seen, it does take some amount of time for the DO to transmigrate a soul - it is not instantaneous (especially with the short supply of people since raids from the Blight have been stopped). I think it's unlikely that we will see Osan'gar again.<br /><br /><b>Aielyn</b><br /><br />With the limited evidence available, I realize that I unable to convincingly dismiss all the other forsaken. However, when taking past actions and current situations into account, I stand by my reasons for dismissing who I did and that Demandred is the most likely 'Impersonator'. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anyway, thanks for the comments.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 11:20:47
subject: <b>I'm leaning toward Fain.</b>
body:
1.  Only Fain can provide a safe passage through the ways, and we all know how truly unsafe they've become.  To navigate an army the size that attacked Rand, through the ways unscathed, without Fain! just doesn't seem likely.<br /><br />2.  Rand wonders how he was found.  Fain can always, almost always find Rand.<br /><br />3.  Fain has become a power in his own right.  He has the ability to create a fake sammy as well as the ability to control Shadowspawn.  He has done so before on a smaller scale.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 11:25:22
subject: <b>I hear what you are saying...</b>
body:
But I still think it is Fain.<br />Fain knows how to get to the blight, he was taken there to be destilled orginally.  He was actually taken all the was to the thin place in the pattren. <br /><br />The ways make it possible to travel across the continent in days, much less weeks.  Rand hasn't sealed them all yet.<br /><br />There is no way of knowing that the Trollocs that attack Rand are the ones that were stolen.  Granted, this is pretty weak, there is a very good chance they were, but we can't say for sure.<br /><br />There is no way of knowing the trollocs were supposed to kill Rand.  The whole battle seemed pretty pointless when they didn't even get to the door.  I think the point of the attack was something else.  <br /><br />IF the point of the attack was to kill Rand, it seems silly to think that any of the forsaken can actually think that would work.  The Forsaken are very smart, and if Rand has killed half their number and goodness knows how many Shiado and Trollocs, none of the Forsaken must actually believe they can kill him by throwing a bunch of Trollocs at a Tar'even that happens to be the most powerful channeler reborn with the ablity to travel. Could they?  Esspecially Demandred who is a excellent Militery General.  Wouldn't he be able to come up with a better plan?  Plus if Demandred is working with Taim, or at least has spoke to Asha'man, he has to know what they can do and that Rand has some of them with him, and that he has some of the Aes Sedei with him.  Given those resources, I would think a general like Demandred could come up with something better than &quot;Everyone just charge the barn with all the channelers in it!!!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 16:16:03
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
i think that graendal shouldn't have been overlooked.  she is one sneaky momma and also playing alot behind the scenes.  she also schemed very long with sammael and may have decided that since he is dead, maybe she can f with some of the other forsaken by pretending to be him by drawing their eyes away from her.  maybe they are too close to discovering her schemes so she put up a smoke screen.  but that rational could also be used in defense of demandred being the sneaky bastardo.  so maybe i 60% disagree, 40% am unsure....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 17:47:52
subject: <b>more responses...</b>
body:
I'm still surprised to see so many adament Fain supporters...anyway...<br /><br /><b>Columbo</b><br /><br />Good to see you lurking around still.<br /><br /><b>1. Only Fain can provide a safe passage through the ways, and we all know how truly unsafe they've become. To navigate an army the size that attacked Rand, through the ways unscathed, without Fain! just doesn't seem likely.</b><br /><br />We know that Fain seems to be able to travel the ways without too much grief, but has since TGH? I don't think so. After Falme, he travelled over land to Amadacia, then the Two Rivers, to Tar Valon, then Caemlyn, then Cairhen, and finally to Far Madding. Fain appears to have abandoned the ways for travelling. Also, do we know that he could protect someone (or something) with him? I find that highly unlikely. I don't think Fain would anymore successful at bringing the shadowspawn through the ways than anyone else.<br /><br /><b>2. Rand wonders how he was found. Fain can always, almost always find Rand.</b><br /><br />Yes, Fain can, but so can the forsaken. In KOD we see from Semirhage that there is a way to locate ta'veren by studying the pattern. I assume it involves channeling, but it may not - we don't know the method, only that it's getting less certain since the pattern is in flux due to the DO's touch.<br /><br /><b>3. Fain has become a power in his own right. He has the ability to create a fake sammy as well as the ability to control Shadowspawn. He has done so before on a smaller scale. </b><br /><br />I see no evidence that Fain has this scale of power - prior to this it has always been limited to relatively small areas. A group of shadowspawn numbering 10s or even 100s would be believable perhaps, but not one numbering 100,000.<br /><br />However the biggest case against Fain remains motive. Flat out, Fain has no motive and an action like this is just inconsistent with his recent actions and motivations.<br /><br /><b>Borderlander</b><br /><br />see above for comments on Fain.<br /><br />As for the reason for sending the shadowspawn, I stated in the theory that it was not to kill Rand. It was to test his abilities of resisting a large force. It was a statigic move by Demandred so he can better anticipate the reaction to his invasion of a shadowspawn army from the blight. If Rand happened to have died in the attack, it certainly would not of upset Demandred, but that was not his primary goal.<br /><br /><b>mazza3</b><br /><br />I admit that Graendal is the most likely except for Demandred. Again, I don't believe that an attack like this fits with her motives - I can't really see what she would gain with this. Anyway, at about this time, Ituralde is returning to Arad Doman with the Seanchan in pursuit. He probably isn't there quite yet, but I'm sure Graendal has her eyes out for him since it could effect her situation.<br /><br />Anyway, Demandred has the better motive in this case.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 17:51:13
subject: <b>Does Fain know what the Forsaken look like?</b>
body:
<b>&quot;Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to the Myddraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the chosen.&#8221;</b><br /><br />Moridin has enough info apparently, to know that whoever sent the Myrddraal and Trollocs, disguised themself as Sammael. If you will recall, back in tEotW, Fain believed that Ishamael was Bal'zamon. This indicates that he didn't know the Forsaken to look at them, but rather knew their names from legend, just like everyone else. <br /><br />Mordeth and Aridhol came during the Trolloc Wars, after the WoP, although apparently the &quot;evil&quot; from which Mordeth originated is far older. The question that has to be answered then is; did this &quot;evil&quot; carry the knowledge of the Forsaken's appearances?<br /><br />And of course the most obvious question: Can the mark that the DO places on his Chosen be duplicated to the extent of fooling his Shadowspawn? The mark the DO puts on his Chosen is invisible, even to the other Chosen, and to Shadowspawn. Yet the Shadowspawn are able to sense it, and through this sensation, they are compelled to obey. <br /><br />If Fain <i>could</i> command this many Shadowspawn, why use the deception of appearing as Sammael? For this scenario to work and make sense, Fain would have to know what Sammael looked like, <i>know</i> about the &quot;Chosen mark&quot;, <i>and</i> duplicate its effects. Otherwise, he might as well have appeared as himself and bullied the Myrddraal without bothering with the disguise.<br /><br />As for the Ways and safe travel through them, who's to say how many were lost along the route? Perhaps only half of what was sent actually survived to complete the journey. <br /><br />Since the Cleansing, we don't yet know what effect it might have had on the Ways themselves. Certainly Mashadar itself still survives as per RJ, but now that the taint that most likely produced it is gone, the Ways might be turning into an inhospitable environment for Mashadar. Just like receiving an injection of antibiotics with clean saidin, it's possible Mashadar might end up fleeing into the world to escape, or already has through the destroyed gate at Fal Moran that Moiraine cut through.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 17:55:16
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
It seems like Demandred is the likely suspect here. He would test Rand in this way and try and kill him, at the same time witholding his accountability from Moridin.<br /><br />I do think there are some other suspects, though...<br /><br />- Firstly, I think every non-military Forsaken should be excluded. This includes Graendal and Mesaana who don't usually send Shadowspawn in huge numbers to kill people.<br /><br />- This would be a typical military move by someone like Demandred, Be'lal or Rahvin. I think it was badly planned and I'm not sure what result Demandred was hoping for - or whether he was watching at all.<br /><br />- Taim might have been raised to Forsaken level. Moridin's two extra chairs are suspicious. Taim might actually take a chance and send Shadowspawn to kill Rand.<br /><br />- I don't agree with the others (and you) who say that Cyndane shouldn't be considered. This scene clearly demonstrates her irrational hatred for Rand. She might be daring, and even insane, enough to do it. In fact, she is high up on my list.<br /><br />- Osan'gar might make a surprise appearance unless he really is dead.<br /><br />- Shadar Haran might be playing a role outside of the Forsaken circle. It might be a direct test of Rand by the DO.<br /><br />I'm shocked that Moridin doesn't know the orders of these Shadowspawn. I don't know why he didn't ask the Myrddraal. Perhaps he heard of them via spies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 18:50:04
subject: <b>I am still not even sure they are the same group</b>
body:
Mordin reports thousands of Trollocs...  the attack had over a 100,000...  I know you can argue that Thousands may have meant 100,000  but honestly!!  If mordin was going to tell the forsaken what happened, do you think he might tell them an estimate that is closer then 100 times off???  That is like calling 1000 trollocs, &quot;tens of trollocs&quot; <br /><br />AND... If the Demandred can just find Rand by looking at the pattren any time he wants,  what about Grendal's &quot;And you were just hoping to bumble into him&quot; explosion when they find out he wants to clean the taint?  That would seem to say that Demandred doesn't just know where he is.  What about when Demandred is sending Asha' man to kill Rand, but doens't tell them where he is?  Taim can't find him, He bugs Logain about it when Logain delivers the letter about letting the Asha'man being bonded.  In fact, the whole reason the forsaken have to wait for Rand to start channelling to stop him from cleansing the taint is that they don't know where he will be until then.  They have to wait until they can sense all the power being tapped, and try and break it up after Rand has set up all the defenses he wants.  In fact, the more I read this, the less I think any of the forsaken can pin point him.<br /><br />So I still think that it was Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 19:45:52
subject: <b>We meet again, only on opposite sides this time. Interesting?</b>
body:
It's been awhile KCF,hasn't it?<br /><br /><b>We know that Fain seems to be able to travel the ways without too much grief, but has since TGH? I don't think so. After Falme, he travelled over land to Amadacia, then the Two Rivers, to Tar Valon, then Caemlyn, then Cairhen, and finally to Far Madding. Fain appears to have abandoned the ways for travelling. Also, do we know that he could protect someone (or something) with him? I find that highly unlikely. I don't think Fain would anymore successful at bringing the shadowspawn through the ways than anyone else.</b><br /><br />A qoute from Moraine just after an interogation of Fain in Fal Dara. &quot; The black wind caught him, and he claimed to understand the voices.  Some greeted him as like to them; others feared him.  No sooner did the Wind envelope Fain then it fled.&quot;  Chapter 47 EOW<br /><br />Clearly Fain has no problem with the Wind.  He is part Shadar Logoth, part DO.  He has shown the ability to effect both.<br /><br /><b>Yes, Fain can, but so can the forsaken. In KOD we see from Semirhage that there is a way to locate ta'veren by studying the pattern. I assume it involves channeling, but it may not - we don't know the method, only that it's getting less certain since the pattern is in flux due to the DO's touch.</b><br /><br />Does Demandred have this ability? Maybe.  I can say with 100% certainty that Fain does.<br /><br /><b>I see no evidence that Fain has this scale of power - prior to this it has always been limited to relatively small areas. A group of shadowspawn numbering 10s or even 100s would be believable perhaps, but not one numbering 100,000.</b><br /><br />Try 10,000 plus trollocs,that he sent THROUGH the WAYS!!!to Edmonds field.  It hurts doesn't it.  So we have precedence, don't we KCF?  Fain follows a pattern.  Maybe you'd like to retract your statement?  Demandred would have created a gateway.<br /><br />&lt;b&gt;However the biggest case against Fain remains motive. Flat out, Fain has no motive and an action like this is just inconsistent with his recent actions and motivations.&lt;b/&gt;<br /><br />Inconsistent?  Please clarify.<br /><br />Turok, Pedron Naill, Edmonds Field, Far Madding, Tear and again at the farmhouse in KOD.<br /><br />His motivation or purpose has and is, only to kill Rand.  He wants Rand out of his head.  Rand invades his head.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />Post Script....Dear Light in the Night, an old friend.  I have a present for you from another friend, Green Gaidin.<br /><br />Sammy died in Shadar Logoth and the DO was unable to retrieve his soul.  What is Fain?  Surely he knows the face of Sammy!..........That's BIG BABY!!!<br /><br /><br />I REST MY CASE!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 20:14:52
subject: <b>Does Columbo have any idea?</b>
body:
Columbo, did I really just read, &quot;Demandred would've just sent them through a gateway&quot;? I'm sorry, but that statement right there completely nullifies anything you've said.<br /><br />In the Stone of Tear, the trollocs came in through the ways and snuck in. Why? They can't be waygated.<br /><br />In the very scene that we are discussing so much...hello,Deathgates? Why do they work? Not just because the razor sharp edges opening and closing...but Shadowspawn through waygates KILL THEM. <br /><br />Sorry, but that was a pretty glaring error there, even moreso than the 2 Rivers Trollocs thing.<br /><br />And, you were pretty close to flaming there, and you said the dumbest thing so far in this topic, I'm sorry to say.<br /><br />So, please, try to be nicer when arguing. Otherwise, people will be meaner to you when they point out mistakes.<br /><br />And, remember, Fades can slip into a shadow. One could have escaped. One could easily have escaped to tell Demandred what happened. Another could've not had these orders, escaped, and told Mordin what happened.<br /><br />And, Fain's power of illusion...is uncertain. We saw a preview of Shadar Haran before. We could've seen a preview of the ghosts there. It seems as if there is more evidence for a Chosen than for Padan Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 20:35:08
subject: <b>scimitar</b>
body:
Did Columbo have a stumble?<br /><br />Flame KCF or Light? NEVER! I was just having a bit of fun,but they know that.<br /><br />I might be tempted to flame you just for old times sake...no I think I'll give you a pass this time.<br /><br />I maintain my strong position.<br /><br />By the way do you have anything to add scimitar?<br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 21:02:10
subject: <b>Good theory, but...</b>
body:
With all due respect, it seems as though you went at this theory with a suspect in mind and then tried to fit the evidence to that suspect. That's all well and good for our justice system -- just look at OJ (nyuk nyuk) -- but the RIGHT way to do it when you're presented with some suspects is too look at the evidence, then deduce a suspect based on that evidence. Oh sure, it's possible that Demandred's comments meant what you posit they did, but that only works when the end result is the end result you were planning for. Inductive reasoning vs. Deductive reasoning. <br /><br />What I'm saying is this: if you look at the evidence arbitrarily, Demandred makes little to no sense. The only real justification you can have is that he wants to kill Lews Therin, but then you could put that line of reasoning toward any of the other Forsaken as a suspect here and Demandred doesn't really stand out. I could go through that Forsaken meeting and show how each Forsaken is trying to do the same thing you accuse demandred of, but in the end those arguments are speculation at best. <br /><br />Fain, on the other hand, has already set precedent for this kind of action in the Two Rivers. He has shown how he can get tens of thousands (or more) of shadowspawn through the Ways, obedient to him.  <br /><br />Also, as a quick note on it not being one of the Forsaken, let's look at how one of the Forsaken would find him in the first place. The common explanation here is that any Forsaken can find Rand as if &quot;a thousand flaming arrows&quot; were pointing him out, but this is not exactly proven. We have the evidence that Ishamael was able to do it, but considering the fact that the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; edict didn't come down until book 6, we have to assume (and in this case it's a pretty cut and dried assumption based on the actions of the Forsaken prior to LoC) that the Forsaken were out to get him prior to that edict. So if any Forsaken could find him like he was being pointed out then why did Demandred not go after him right away? No, the truth is that Ishy and Lanfear (the two most powerful) were the only ones who showed the ability to track him down this way. Demandred never showed himself capable, and so we have to assume that he could not do it this time, either.<br /><br />Anyway, back to Fain, don't forget (as I told Columbo on the phone) Sammy died in Shadar Logoth, and as you pointed out RJ said he isn't coming back? Put two and two together and we see that the reason he isn't coming back is because the DO no longer has claim to his soul. So far the DO has revived all the Forsaken he has been able to, and since Sammy isn't coming back we can safely say that the DO no longer has claim over him. But if the DO doesn't, who does? Why Fain/Mordeth, of course. As Columbo said, that's how he knows all about Sammy, the mark, etc. <br /><br />Fain being the one who sent them isn't foolproof, but it's a much better fit than Demandred, in my opinion. Still, this was an enjoyable theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As to the above who noted that the Gateways are Deathgates to Shadowspawn, that's a good point. Does anyone know the effect of one of those skimming dealies? Does that kill Shadowspawn, too?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Oh, and a shoutout to all the old-timers on here. Columbo, my partner in crime, kcf, still going strong, and Light in the Night, whom I will be Noteboarding presently <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Good to be back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 21:49:53
subject: <b>While I like your theory...</b>
body:
While I like your theory and think it is entirely plausible, I think you eliminated other suspects too easily.  While there seems to be some support for Fain, I don't really believe it was him.  However, I think you overlooked Taim, who could have done this.  He knows at least some of the forsaken, there is no saying he didn't know Sammael as well, so he could impersonate him.  Also, he could have been risen to the level of forsaken, but the others don't know yet.  I know this is pure speculation, but I think it needs to be considered.  Tarmon Gaidon is coming and the dark one is running out of forsaken, he may have made some more


created: 2005-11-01 21:59:46
subject: <b>Who killed the Hoarde?</b>
body:
I really have nothing of my own to add.<br /><br />And, skimming is just...well, its close to gateways, it is a gateway, but it is close to the Ways. However, Skimming, I think, has to be eliminated. First off, its likely it kills them. If it doesn't,second, there's a 100,000 trollocs. Think about that. 100,000 trollocs. How many maidens travel with Rand to Shadar Logoth? And one falls off. Can you imagine Fades and trollocs feeling &quot;comfortable&quot; skimming, even if ordered to? Know how much squabbling and moving there'd be and ones falling off? Second, think of the logistics. I think Rand brought like 50 Maidens....imagine 100. Now, the skimmer would have to make 1,000 trips, and skimming takes quite a while. Can you imagine any Chosen spending that much time, THOUSANDS of hours on this, never being caught, and so on? I can't.<br /><br />Yes, I agree that it seems he wants Dem, and is looking for evidence to support it, rather than vice versa. <br /><br />With that said..why would Mog do it? She swears not to be cowardly any more, but, she's hardly going to go after Rand as weak as she is, or even send Shadowspawn after him. Why wasn't a single Dragkhar included? Or a few darkhounds? Heck, a few graymen would have been awesome! If Mog did it, she'd do it like she was...a spider. Now, the spider may be brave, but, not stupid. The shadowspawn army would be a distraction for the secret attack, the gray man or whatnot. <br /><br />Lanfear...something just doesn't strike me right. She seems like she'd make it personable. And she's no coward...<br /><br />We can all agree, I hope, Aran'gar didn't do it.<br /><br />Moridin, is he acting like he pissed, and just upset he failed? Um...no.<br /><br />Would Shadar Haran have done it? Where the hell WAS Shadar Haran? With him there, he could've shadowed in behind Rand and killed him. Always makes me question Fade's abilities...not a single one tried to shadow in.<br /><br />Fain doesn't quite seem....stable enough...to have done this. Its pointed out that there are a great many sects and tribes involved. Almost all. Think Fain woulda spent this much time on a plan? Organized it so just a fraction of each is missing so no one would be the wiser? Fain's loonier than Bugs Bunny on crack. I don't think he's quite well put together enough to pull this off.<br /><br />What about Osan'gar? Hey, something like this takes TIME. He may have done it before his death. He wanted Rand dead, period, and forget about the consequences. He had inside informants possible in the asha'man and coulda tracked Rand that way. Or just something. I think Osan'gar is a likely candidate. Organizing 100,000 Trollocs through the Ways takes time. He could've ordered the Shadowspawn to obey the asha'man, and turned it over to them. I don't count out osan'gar.<br /><br />Graendal had good reasons. And she's a great manipulator...and, the obvious choice to most would be Demandred, and she could be playing that game, making Moridin or whatever distrust Demandred. <br /><br />Or, think about Semirhage more fully. Who thinks being captured was part of her plan. What if she did this? She would control Seanchan, or, at least, have thrown it in chaos, and set up the new ruler. She could've gotten rid of Rand also. And, she would've ruled. Now, instead, she learns of Rand's madness. She learns Rand knows stuff he just can't possibly know...unless he's mad. BOOM, NEW PLAN. I'll please the Dark One by causing chaos...inside of Rand's camp. She likes causing pain. How better to do this than turn all of the Lightsiders against their greatest hope? I'm sure physical pain isn't the only one she enjoys. Risky, I know, but...Semirhage is afraid. OF NOTHING. <br /><br />Mesaana? Um...why? Well, we know she's good at illusion...or, maybe she isn't. Afterall, the color of her dress is seen, and she uses a MOM very similar to her own appearance. But, I just see no reason for Mesaana. And, yes, I think she's been cowed far too much to have done this.<br /><br />And, finally, Demandred. Points have been made for him. I'm not going to reiterate.<br /><br />So, finally, I think Demandred, Graendal, Semirhage, or Osan'gar are all likely candidates. Moridin has full control right now...I see no reason for him to counteract that by making himself look foolish, other than to imbalance the other Forsaken....but that ain't happening. Mesaana is too cowed, Aran'gar didn't do it or has a secret split personality (hey, i'm a woman, but when I MOM, I'm sammael!...no). Padan isn't just missing a chicken leg in a twelve piece, he's got fish in there. Shadar Haran...just no.<br /><br />Oh yes, Taim! Well...if he's a newly raised Forsaken, then hell yeah. But, wouldn't Moridin know this? Or, are we all overestimating Moridin's favor with the GL? I don't think so. Though, I do think we're all underestimating Taim. Taim has every reason to do this...but, you'd think, he'd throw in a few more asha'man in there to betray Rand. Heck, just one rogue asha'man in there could've caused their defeat. Can you imagine one of those newly learned grenades going off inside the house? I just don't believe it.<br /><br />So, my final judgement? Not enough hints. However, my best guess would be Demandred, though, we were pointed a little too heavily in that direction. Though, I see cases could be made for Semirhage, Graendal, Taim, and even Osan'gar. The rest, I just have to say a great big NO to. But...at this point in time, none of us can be sure, and it may never be revealed.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 22:17:38
subject: <b>Add on:</b>
body:
As for the Forsaken could've found Rand....<br /><br />Numerable ways. One of those saldean troops? Darkfriend. There's a black ajah with Rand who could've been deceived. Asha'man abound that are darkfriends. <br /><br />Finally, dreamwalkers. HELLO? How did Lanfear came out? I bet it was Min. Rand can shield his dreams. I think warders are protected anyways. Aes Sedia shield dreams. Though, I bet Lanfear or Graendal could break through the Aes Sedai shields, possibly even Rand's. But, there is some evidence that maybe all the forsaken can duplicate dreamwalking, at least to some extent. But, anyways, at least some are dreamwalkers, and this knowledge could've been shared, there are alliances afterall. Overall, I don't think knowing where to strike really is that big of a deal. These people are the Forsaken, afterall. They're smart. They were some of the best of the best, and others were just one of the betters out there when they got trapped. <br /><br />Basically, how they found Rand I think is a moot point that really isn't a big deal. Don't strain your brain over that. Any of the Forsaken are resourceful enough to figure this one out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-01 23:11:41
subject: <b>Trolloc attack on Rand</b>
body:
I'm not saying that Moridin sent the Trolloc into the Ways for the occurence he mentioned. For all we know he could have done it too. But Moridin might have known where to send the Trollocs to attack Rand because of their 'link'. Just a though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 02:04:36
subject: <b>Standard Rebuttal</b>
body:
<b>Think Fain woulda spent this much time on a plan? Organized it so just a fraction of each is missing so no one would be the wiser? Fain's loonier than Bugs Bunny on crack. I don't think he's quite well put together enough to pull this off.</b><br /><br />Yet look at what he did in the Two Rivers... Fain is a lot smarter and more capable than you're giving him credit for.<br /><br /><b>Numerable ways. One of those saldean troops? Darkfriend. There's a black ajah with Rand who could've been deceived. Asha'man abound that are darkfriends. </b> <br /><br />And how would the Shadow have gotten in contact with him? Rand and Nynaeve could feel any Gateway being opened, and if a Fade decided to waltz in to get a report (though he'd still have to know where he's going anyway) Rand and Lan, as Warders, would have sensed him.<br /><br /><b>Overall, I don't think knowing where to strike really is that big of a deal. These people are the Forsaken, afterall. They're smart. They were some of the best of the best, and others were just one of the betters out there when they got trapped.</b><br /><br />You and I have VERY different outlooks on the Forsaken, my friend. Knowing where to strike isn't that big of a deal? It's the whole deal. The Forsaken are smart? Show me where RJ has shown us that, and don't say anyhting about the War of the Shadow because we haven't seen that. So far in the series we've heard about how they're feared, but all we've seen is a Three Stooges rerun where they're bumbling and stumbling like inept idiots.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 03:49:31
subject: <b>Re: Columbo and GG</b>
body:
Glad to see you two back! Always nice to argue a point or two with both of you. However, your lack of participation has left you a little rusty on some of the facts. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One thing I'd like to remind both of you is that it wasn't Fain that sent the Trollocs and Myrddraal to the Two Rivers. It was Slayer. He was trying to root-out Fain, and was caught by surprise that Perrin was there too. So more Shadowspawn were sent to that end. The only minions Fain had were a few leftover Trollocs and a Fade from TGH, and some Children of the Light that he had tainted.<br /><br />And, it was reported from one of the recent book signings that RJ said Shadowspawn couldn't survive passage through <i>any</i> Gateway. (Skimming, Traveling or TAR gateway.) This would explain why we haven't seen any attacks like Rand had speculated about back in LoC. (I think it was LoC, I can't recall exactly where ATM.) Basically, Rand had wondered why one of the Forsaken hadn't opened a gateway and poured thousands of Trollocs into a city he controlled. He knew he would be hard-pressed to succesfully fight them off.) <br /><br />As a reminder, the Two Rivers attack came thru the Waygate at Manetheren, the attack on Tear came by barges and wagons, the attack at Lord Algarin's manor came thru the Waygate near Stedding Shangtai. (No explanation for the Trollocs in the Waste out by Cold Rocks Hold, or Jangai Pass, though.)<br /><br />As far as other Forsaken finding Rand, Rahvin apparently located him in Rhuidean and sent the Darkhounds. (We don't know for sure whether or not Lanfear told him where Rand was.) Sammael or Rahvin sent the attack at Jangai Pass. I also think there is pretty good evidence that Graendal spied on Rand from time to time, and the rumors that Rand visited Maerone the night before the Band of the Red Hand moved south, are fairly convincing she knew he had been there. (In case you have forgoten, Rand Traveled directly to Mat's room that night. No one but Mat should have known the Dragon Reborn had been in town that night.) Sammael also sent his emissary to Rand in Caemlyn asking for a truce. However, Rand had been there for awhile, so this could be discounted.<br /><br />For the most part Rand hadn't really been trying to keep a low profile until the last couple books, IMO. After he was attacked in Cairhien, he felt the need to do a little sneeking around to get rid of the renegade asha'man, and then after the Cleansing he needed to rest and keep hidden.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 07:28:36
subject: <b>Why it Can't be Fain</b>
body:
Well, ofcourse anything is possible untill RJ states it flat out, as with so many of his &quot;mysteries&quot;. But looking at the patterns of behaviours and also some facts it's least likely that Fain sent the Trollocs.<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />--------<br />Facts:<br />--------<br />&gt;Fain never sent those trollocs through the ways to the two rivers. He brought/accompanied the whitecloaks using Bornhalds hate for Perrin. (thank you others for clearing that up too)<br /><br />&gt;Fain can go unharmed through the ways but his companions won't- and certainly not a 100.000 shadowspawn- benifit from this ability.<br /><br />&gt;Fain can track Althor down, but from a distance can only vaguely tell Rands direction. He would have to track Rand down. Go back somewhere else (blight?)and tell the Shadowspawn where to go, from where they would set out to journey the ways. Even so this would take many many days, even through the ways. <br />How long has Rand stayed in 1 place long enough?<br /><br />&gt;Fain hates the Shadow and what the DO ahs done to him and hasn't had shadow-companions formany books.<br />Mordeth is also a sworn enemy of th Shadow<br /><br />&gt;Fain can excert some control over Shadowspawn because of the SL/Mordeth powers in him. So shadowspawn fears him.<br />These powers emerge in the Great Hunt and thats why you see the myrdraal/fain powerstruggle manifest.<br />This Fear fain inflicts is noway near the obiedience the Forsaken are ensured of.<br />It would only last in Fains presence and is less likely to be of use for elaborate orders, if it is still of any use by now.<br /><br />------<br />Behaviour:<br />------<br /><br />&gt;Really the BIGGEST argument for Fain not sending the Trollocs is this:<br />&quot;HE'S MINE I TELL YOU, ALTHOR IS MINE!!&quot;<br /><br />From Fain's PoV/statements we can tell that he hungers to kill Rand PERSONALLY.<br /><br />Fain even KILLS the DF Ashaman who try to kill Rand in Far Madding, BECAUSE HE WANTS TO DO IT HIMSELF!!!<br /><br />...Fain using THE SHADOW to kill Rand? Come on..you can't seriously believe this if you think it trough..<br /><br />--------------------<br /><br />For now Demandred is the most elegible to have done it untill we know more.<br />


created: 2005-11-02 07:46:20
subject: <b>Some Retorts</b>
body:
Light in the Night, which &quot;two&quot; are you talking about?<br /><br />Also, thanks to LitN and Meradin for pointing out that Fain didn't send the 2 Rivers attack. Something felt fishy to me about that this whole thread, but, I couldn' say what, now I know, it was Slayer. Yes, that makes a lot more sense. Even more evidence Fain didn't do it. <br /><br />Green Gaidin:<br /><br /><br />[b]Yet look at what he did in the Two Rivers... Fain is a lot smarter and more capable than you're giving him credit for.[/b]<br /><br />Slayer, as previously said. <br /><br />[B]And how would the Shadow have gotten in contact with him? Rand and Nynaeve could feel any Gateway being opened, and if a Fade decided to waltz in to get a report (though he'd still have to know where he's going anyway) Rand and Lan, as Warders, would have sensed him.[/b]<br /><br />Well, for one, as I mentioned earlier, dreams. Then sharing that knowledge. Or, Rand and so on aren't always there. They're leaving the area and coming back, as are the troops, through asha'man gateways. If they go with an asha'man, there you go. Heck, one of those leaving asha'man coulda been it. And, let's face it, there's a lot of channeling going around that area I bet. They probably would only suspect something was going on if there was a gateway opening in a non-gateway section. He'd been using the place for a while. He didn't arrive there once and stay there for a few weeks or something. It was a come and go thing...and I bet he wasn't the only one. BTW, lots of Fades...ever think a rat or crow or something saw it? Its been said multiple times they are spawning so fast many have given up trying to kill them all.<br /><br />[b]You and I have VERY different outlooks on the Forsaken, my friend. Knowing where to strike isn't that big of a deal? It's the whole deal. The Forsaken are smart? Show me where RJ has shown us that, and don't say anyhting about the War of the Shadow because we haven't seen that. So far in the series we've heard about how they're feared, but all we've seen is a Three Stooges rerun where they're bumbling and stumbling like inept idiots.[/b]<br /><br />Well, first of all, Ishamael possibly set up the BA, set up the Seanchan invasion, turned Artur Hawking, etc etc. He did a lot of damage.<br /><br />Semirhage, if telling the truth, single handedly threw all of Seanchan into pure chaos.<br /><br />Lanfear had a slim chance of not turning Rand into her puppet or what not. She failed, only because of Moir's future knowledge. She escaped from the Finns...or died, or whatever, but is out and about, Moir isn't. Yes, she's slightly stronger, but possibly still the strongest woman we know of.<br /><br />Aran'gar and Mesaana have done a good job of keeping the tower separate. Unfortunately, Aran'gars cover was blown at the Cleansing.<br /><br />Sammael, Be'lal, Rahvin,etc, did successfully take over a nation...albeit for a limited time. <br /><br />Oh, and Semirhage cost Rand his hand, which means hundreds of swordplay hours gone and one huge advantage he had.<br /><br />And, Semirhage also almost managed to capture and kill Tuon. Damn ta'varen.<br /><br />Mog has escaped capture. TWICE. And she's the weakest of the Forsaken!<br /><br />Tell me, where hasn't the Shadow succeeded? Yes, a few Forsaken are dead. A few are resurrected. A few may still be resurrected. But, read RJs blog...the Shadow is winning, big time. BIG TIME. He wants that in our mind.<br /><br />Finally...<br /><br />Taim. Mazrim Taim. Controls almost the entirety of the Black Tower with a small rogue faction consisting of Logain. And, he's likely under Forsaken Control (if not an actual Forsaken Reborn-don't believe it, but I'm not getting into this right now).<br /><br />Oh, yeah, and an entire Aiel Sept, due to Sammael's action of double dragoning that Shaido wannabe Aiel Chief, abondoned the Shaido and is raising absolute chaos. That enough for ya?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 11:12:10
subject: <b>Good to see a debate in full force...</b>
body:
...and the participation of GG and Columbo (as well as others).<br /><br />It seems like we are quickly coming to an impass, but lets look at the situation.<br /><br />~100,000 shadowspawn were sent to attack Rand and company. Rand is as strong of a channeler as is possible and in possession of two of the three strongest male sa'angreal ever made (well the CK is a ter'angreal access key - but it provides access to the CK). He also has several Asha'man and AS with him and they know how to link. One of these Asha'man is of forsaken strength, as is one of the AS (and Cadsuane is not trivial). Also, the AS have several angreal.<br /><br />Whether or not the forsaken know all of this (and they should be able to figure out at least most of it), they do know some of it - remember these are the people that smacked them pretty good at the cleansing where the forsaken flat-out failed.<br /><br />Added up, the forsaken should easily realize that a shadowspawn army of 100,000 is insufficient to kill Rand. So, the question is why would it be sent if it is insufficient to kill the DR? Perhaps other can come up with explanations, but the one that by far makes the most sense is that it was a test. A military test with the goal of feeling out what the response would be to such an army. The results of this 'test' allow the general of the shadowspawn<br />(whoever they may be) to better plan for the upcoming trolloc invasion.<br /><br />So, who is this general? Like I pointed out (and most agree on), Asmodean, Rahvin, Bel'al, Aginor/Osan'gar, and Sammael are dead and clearly not the shadow's general. Sidious points out that neither Graendal nor Mesaana are military minds and should be discounted as the shadow's general. We know from Aran'gar's POV that she isn't involved. Semirhage has her own plans and Moghedien and Cyndane seem to be in other roles. This leaves Demandred, who was the shadow's best general in the War of Power. He is the obvious choice for this role and the one who sent the shadowspawn army after Rand.<br /><br /><br />As I've continued to say, I feel that it must be one of the forsaken. I feel strongly that Fain neither has the ability nor the motivation for an attack like this and others have argued the point as well. Taim is an interesting idea, but at this point we don't we don't have direct evidence that he has the mark of the forsaken or the resources to tap into so many shadowspawn. Frankly, if Taim wanted Rand dead, he would have sent a small army of Asha'man - do you really think he would send an army when the OP could be used? Anyway, Taim seems to have a task - prepare the dreadlords.<br /><br />Regardless of how quickly I dismiss some suspects and the lack of truly convincing evidence, Demandred does stand well apart as the most likely. The thing that actually makes me most nervous is that RJ seems to point us this conclusion in an obvious way, but I still stand my ascertian that it is Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 11:41:40
subject: <b>mashadar and fain</b>
body:
The forsakens mark is more than likly on there soul<br /><br />mashadar is said to consume souls and fain has at least some powers that originate from mashadar so what if the abilties of sammaels mark was transfered to fain somehow<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 12:34:06
subject: <b>Kcf</b>
body:
It seems a bit silly to discount Semirhage just because she has her own plans. She sent trollocs earlier in the series and she was still active in Seanchan then.<br /><br />She might have sent this army to kill as many of Rand's allies as possible. This would increase the chance that he would be undefended or even alone when she finally faced him. If she could get rid of Logain, Cadsuane or Nynaeve ... imagine the implications for that last chapter involving Semirhage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 12:46:01
subject: <b>Sidious...</b>
body:
You bring up some good points. <br /><br />IIRC, Semirhage sent the trollocs in TSR as the result of a direct order from the DO to oppose Sammael's trollocs, but I could be wrong.<br /><br />Anyway, what you say is possible, but I still believe Demandred makes more sense. Semirhage has her hands pretty full with the Seanchan, Tuon, Suroth, and her plan. If her goal was to weed out some of Rand's supporters why not send a few warded draghkar, DH's, or even Slayer as opposed to such a large army of shadowspawn that will take time and losses through the ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 13:14:55
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
I like your theory that Demandred sent them. A Military strategy, a little test to see how the Dragon and his small party could handle lots of Trollocs, and learn how to improve the next, and probably more important, attack.<br /><br />Also, if a Forsaken can spend 100000 Trollocs in this way, how many millions of Trollocs must be waiting in the Blight? I don't think the DO would be pleased if any of his best men spent 100000 of his creatures if there are not a lot of them to spend.<br /><br />Machin Shin:<br />How did 100000 Trollocs come through Machin Shin, who after Fains contact with it in TEOTW has been located in the Ways close to a waygate near Rand.<br />How could 100000 Trollocs have come through Machin Shin to attack Rand?<br />Is there a waygate closer still, or has Machin Shin changed its behaviour after the cleansing?


created: 2005-11-02 13:47:11
subject: <b>Rusty? apparently.</b>
body:
It was still nice to get my feet wet.<br /><br />Fain wants Rand all to himself, and that takes him out of the equation?  What about Demandred? Would Demandred take the chance that his horde might succeed?  <br /><br />It was a close run thing, wasn't it?<br /><br />Sending an army through the ways, without control of the Wind? Maybe but seems doubtful.  How large was the original count?  They would have suffered casualties....It's a long walk from,the somewhere,in enemy territory.  We've seen the effect of the Wind on the Trollocs.  Scared to death.  TRICK OR TREAT!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 13:48:00
subject: <b>K.I.S.S.</b>
body:
New to the site and the boards. Reading over these theories, and I'm thinking, at least in this case, there might be too much debate about facts when the answer is right in front of us. <br /><br />I would say first, I believe its Demi. His quotes during the meeting seem totally aimed at placing blame on a-still-alive-Sammy. Also, I think we have seen through-out the epic that illusion works best when you don't have to greatly vary your illusion from your true self. I think it had to be a male to pull off an illusion of Sammy. That would pretty much discount all the surviving female Forsaken. I also think it discounts Fain. Agreeing with those who posted above, I also think Demi is becoming desperate to know what Rand/LTT is capable of.<br /><br />As an afterthought, I would not discount Moridin. This guy is not only raving mad, but also extremely cagey. I would not put it past him to lie about not knowing who did this to create more tension amoung the Forsaken. The book states there are two empty chairs. What if one of those chairs was still for Sammy and then the other is for Taim(as I think almost everyone agrees). If the prospect of Sammy being alive and acting as an independent could sow more dissension then I am sure Moridin would want that. Thinking back to Sammy's death (without books at hand0 wasn't Ishy/Moridin on hand to witness that? So, he would know that Sammy wasn't around.<br /><br />I would say this puts me in the Demi camp, with Moridin as a close second suspect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Redemption doesn't have to be about religion, Ingtar taught me that.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 18:26:58
subject: <b>Could be.. but</b>
body:
I can see it being Demandred, but I would not be so quick to rule out Moridin.  <br /><br />&quot;...and Moridin mentioning it in the first place pretty well eliminates him.&quot;<br /><br />Why would that eliminate him?  Who is to say he didn't mention it himself to lead the others to jump to the conclusion, just as you did, that it wasn't him?  He could have done it with exactly that reason in mind, to sow seeds of doubt between the Forsaken.  <br /><br />Also, just before the attack on the manorhouse Rand sees Moridin's face in his mind and feels that the man was aware of him.  Could this have been to throw him off-balance just before the attack, or possibly meant to make him wary of such an attack, almost a warning, since Moridin knew about the Trollocs taking to the ways and had ordered Rand kept alive.  Rand then speculates on how aware of him the man in his mind was.<br /><br />&quot;How aware of him was the other man?  Ta'veren could be found by their effect on the Pattern, though only the Forsaken knew how...At least, Lanfear and Ishamael had known how, but no one had found him that way since they had died.&quot;  -Ch. 18 KoD<br /><br />Rand wonders how they found him. Ishamael had found him that way before, why not again as Moridin?<br /><br />After the attack Rand thinks to himself, &quot;Plainly someone knew Ishamael's trick.  Or that blue-eyed man in his head really could locate him.&quot;  Of course Rand doesn't know that Ishamael is back, and just so happens to BE the man in his head.  <br /><br />He also speculates on the fact that had Logain not come when he did with his Asha'man and Aes Sedai the battle might well have ended differently.  Later when preparing to enter the Stone in Tear, Rand sees the man in his head again.  This time he looks angry and about to sick up. <br /><br />Maybe Moridin sent the attack thinking not to kill Rand but to possibly cut his numbers down and drive him out of Tear.  Possibly to keep Rand from interfering in some scheme or other.  Of course that plan failed due to Logain showing up just before the attack.  This would explain why when he later pops into Rand's head to find him staring at the Stone he reacts like he does.<br />


created: 2005-11-02 19:59:55
subject: <b>Huh</b>
body:
No one has still even attempted to explain the numbers desrepancy between the &quot;Thousands or Trollocs, and hundred myadrall&quot; and the ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND trollocs that show up after Rand. If it isn't Fain, (who I like, becasue no one can explain how a non-Fain gets them all there) Then I say it is Mordin, and he is why.  It is after the meeting, and he more or less says that no one takes trollocs without his ok.  He never says he won't send them out somewhere.  Mordin has shown he can tract Rand...  and Mordin has a motive...  He knows the Trollocs will be able to kill Rand...  but they might spook him into doing something hastey, or at the very least, keep him edgy and jumping arround and a harder target for disobediant Forsaken..  just thoughts...  but like I said before, There is a HUGE diffrence in the numbers Mordin implied where taken, and how many show up after Rand.  I mean, can &quot;Hundreds&quot; of Myadrall even control 100,000 trollocs?  Is there a max number of Trollocs a mydrall controls?  Isn't like a hundred each?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 21:19:12
subject: <b>My suspects</b>
body:
<b>Demandred</b> is a possible suspect, as elaborated in this theory, but not really that obvious. He is, in my opinion, the most likely of those present at the Forsaken meeting, but that doesn't mean much.<br /><br /><b>Aginor</b> may have a new body and name now. He died in <i>Winter's Heart</i>, and it is now early spring. Months have passed since then, and as the seals weaken, Shai'tan appears to be capable of reincarnating souls at a higher speed. Compare Moridin and Cyndane to Asan'gar and Osan'gar. He also has plenty of reason to want rand dead ( the poor sucker died twice! ) and likely not the guts to do it openly. But since we don't even know if he is worth being reincarnated again, I'll leave this as a possibility.<br /><br /><b>Mazrim Taim</b> is a very likely suspect. He's sent minions to kill Rand before, and his jealousy of Rand is comparable only to Demandred's for Lews Therin. He likely has the wits to disguise himself as Sammael, but does he have the authority to order the Shadowspawn? If he is a newly raised Forsaken, he might, or if he is Be'lal reincarnated. If either of these conditions have been met, he becomes a likely suspect, otherwise, it can't be him.<br /><br />My favoured suspect, of course, is <b>Sammael</b>. To be honest, I'm partial to begin with, because his reincarnation would allow RJ's declaration that Asmodean's killer may be revealed if occasion permits to fit in with my theories. Nonwithstanding, Sammael has been dead longer than Osan'gar, and he is certainly reincarnation-worthy material. He has been less treacherous to the Shadow's cause then Lanfear, and more competent than either Aginor or Balthamel, and all three were reincarnated. Besides, the Shadow needs generals, as Tarmon Gai'don approaches.<br /><br /><b>Padan Fain</b> didn't do it of course. The entire argument in his favour is based on unfounded assumptions.<br /><br />That he could command thousands of Trollocs and a hundred Myrddraal despite no indication of this being possible.<br /><br />That he would disguise himself when giving the orders despite no indication of having the desire or the power to do so.<br /><br />That he even knows what Sammael looks like.<br /><br />That he would order Shadowspawn to kill Rand despite his previous actions and thoughts indicating an absolutely contradictory desire.<br /><br />I shall personally crusade against the Padan Fain theory, as I have crusaded against the Slayer killing Asmodean theory! My duty as a Fanatic-Templar is to great to do any less <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 05:05:35
subject: <b>We agree on something</b>
body:
Fanatic-Templar..may i add one fact agaist Fain as well?<br />Well thank you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Fain HATES the Shadoooowww. He hasn't been around shadownspawn since Mordeth took over in book2.<br />He has been corrupting humans ever since but never mingled with Shadowspawn again.<br /><br />He hates the DO so much for what has been done to him. The only other who he hates so much is Rand since Rand was the reason he was used by the shadow like he was.<br /><br />Mordeth=Shadow biggest adversary.<br /><br />Fain &gt; impersonating Sammael (going with all these assumptions) and saying 'Hidi-Ho Trolloc and Myrdraal buddies, go kill Rand, I happen to know exactly where he is. Obey me cause i'm Sammael. Also if i lead your 100.000+ party through the ways and the rear gets attacked by the black wind, just tell it that i'm at the head of the snake, that'll do it. ' -thinks- I killed others before keeping them from killing Althor before i could but what the heck.<br /><br />------------------------------------------<br /><br />Check this: Balance/Counterbalance<br /><br />Saidin---&gt;Groes ways---&gt;birds whistle (peep peep)<br />Saidin---&gt;Gets corrupted<br />Ways----&gt;Go dark (birds quiet)<br />Saidin----&gt; gets cleaned<br />Ways----&gt; ???? <br />Meanwhile we learn that Shadowspawn can't use gateways...mmm...how to balance this?<br /><br />(no fact just a theory)<br /><br />Most likely whodunnits?:<br /><br />&gt;Demandred: I can order shadowspawn, impersonate Sammael as i knew his face, want LTT/Althor dead no mather the orders just don't wanna be punished for it, am curious as to whether it would work.<br /><br />&gt;Semirhage: I can order shadowspawn, impersonate Sammael as i knew his face and i'm so manly tall, I'd like to cripple Althors force before i capture the remainders at my meeting.<br />If all goes wrong i can always blow his hand of.<br /><br />&gt;Greandal: I can order shadowspawn, impersonate Sammael as i knew his face, I'm afraid of althor and his puppies, I'm sooo devious.<br /><br />&gt;Slayer: I can order shadowspawn, I have moved them through the ways before in the two rivers, I have standing FO orders to kill Rand and i so failed at Far Madding, I can impersonate Sammael as i knew his face and i have this wonderfull yellow wig and fake-beard.


created: 2005-11-03 10:57:47
subject: <b>A final thought</b>
body:
Besides my unanswered question of numbers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Did anyone else even find it funny Mordin even told the other forsaken Sammual was alive.  The guy has always been a &quot;I will tell you only what you need to know&quot; kind of guy before...  just struck me as odd when he was telling everyone that sammy is back...  why didn't he just say &quot;No more taking Trollocs or Mydrall until the return...  Period...  cause I said so.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 13:08:46
subject: <b>How did he know?</b>
body:
How did Morodin know that it was someone impersonating Sammael (if it is not a lie...)?Were there witnesses to talk to?<br />If it was Sammael acting on his own, he would ensure that noone knew, else why hide?<br />If someone where to do it and cast the blame on a maybe-still-alive-Sammael, why? Why not use another Forsakens face? Would it not be more productive to blame it on someone you <i>knew</i> was dead?It seems that everyone thinks that he is dead....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 17:00:39
subject: <b>Eh..</b>
body:
It's supposed to be <i>knew</i> was <b>alive.</b> Sorry about that..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 01:53:06
subject: <b>Generic title</b>
body:
Moridin knew Sammy was dead because he saw him die in Shadar Logoth. That's why he was so vexed that someone was using Sammy's face.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 09:43:45
subject: <b>I meant</b>
body:
how could Morodin know that it was Sammael (or someone wearing his body) that gave the order?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 09:48:35
subject: <b>Not Demandred but Fain??</b>
body:
Perhaps it could be Fain? He is linked with Mashdar and has been touched by the dark one personally. Although he acts on his own plans could he not now have some form of power or new link through mashdar to the consumed soul of Sammel?


created: 2005-11-04 13:29:24
subject: <b>Lord mogg</b>
body:
Only a Forsaken can order Fades/Trollocs.<br /><br />Those who think it was Moridin:  <br /><br />Moridin would not risk having Rand killed, and the Trollocs got right up to the house.<br /><br />Moridin`s link to Rand is too dangerous to want Rand dead now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 02:42:36
subject: <b>Jofraz</b>
body:
But Fain tortured the Fades in the earlier books to do what he wanted. So he could have 'pursuaded' them to attack Rand.<br /><br />Fades can also apparently be bargained with, although I don't see what any Darkfriend could offer them to send 100,000 of their number to attack the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 04:16:27
subject: <b>Re borderlander</b>
body:
I know you have concerns about the number of Shadowspawn that Moridin stated were stolen, and what we actually see show up at Lord Algarin's manor, but think about it this way; he's the Nae'blis and has an image he wants to project and protect from appearing ill-suited for the job in front of the other Chosen. So, he simply downplays it by saying &quot;thousands&quot;, instead of &quot;tens of thousands of Trollocs&quot;. <br /><br />It's just like making a mistake at work. If you were the manager of a division, would you tell the workers under your supervision that you made an error that lost the company a hundred thousand dollars, or make it sound less severe by saying a few thousand dollars appears to be unaccounted for? A few thousand dollars doesn't sound too bad, and makes it seem like it could be a slight error in accounting for the budget, whereas a hundred thousand dollars makes you look like a fool that might very well bankrupt the company with your lack of foresight. It's all about image.<br /><br />Sometimes you have to put things in perspective, and I think this is a good analogy. I would also have to say that these Myrddraal and Trollocs are the ones that were misappropriated. They are the only ones that we know anything about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 06:30:11
subject: <b>Sidious</b>
body:
Fain did &quot;persuade&quot; a few myrdraal to do what he wanted, even torturing and breaking them, which is highly impressive. However, that was only a couple at a time. True his powers are alot greater now than they were at that time, but is he strong enough to bully enough myrdraal that is needed to command 100,000 trollocs? How many fades is that? Normally, it's 1 fade per 100 trollocs...Can Fain bully 1000 fades? They hate him and would love to kill him. Would 1000 fades and 100,000 trollocs not have the cojones to turn against him, no matter how much he threatened or pushed them?<br /><br />I could bully a 16yr old, even a few at a time. If there were a 1000 16 yr olds and 100,000 of their younger sisters...my head would be flushed down the toilet in no time... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> lol


created: 2005-11-06 20:14:07
subject: <b>Dreamwalker</b>
body:
Scimitar has a good point - forsaken could have found Rand using dreamwalking.<br /><br />Using this fact, the most likely candidate (of using dreamwalking) is Moghedien.<br /><br />Moghedien is the best of the Forsaken dreamwalkers (even better than Lanfear, although Lanfear doesn't admit it).<br /><br />Moghedien has lost her fear, but still has the mindtrap. She needs some way to operate independently, and dreamwalking is the most obvious choice. Since the cleansing, she has no doubt been operating in the World of Dreams once more, since it is her strength.<br /><br />There is a decent chance that Moghedien was the one who located Rand (most likely through Need - need to find a way to get free, need to locate Rand, or something else), and given this, she may have made a deal with another forsaken to help get her free if she helped them locate Rand.<br /><br />I hold to my opinion that it was Asmodean, however (I know, people think I am stupid for it, but I can see Asmo making a comeback).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 21:46:18
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
I love your posts, so please don't take me wrong...<br /><br />But I don't think Mordin is anything like an insecure mid manager trying to make sure he doesn't look cool in front of the other forsaken....  As to the numbers decrepency..  he is way off on both trollos and Mydralls...  That is all I am saying.  <br /><br />As to the rest (and this is for everyone)<br />Personally, I think there are plenty of holes that are getting glossed over with explanations that are at least a little reached for, at best.  Thats all.<br /><br />So far as I can tell, no one has a GOOD explanation how Mordin knew about Sammual, if these trollocs he was talking about were the same ones that led the attack, how they got there, or what it really even accomplished...<br />I just think it is a real case of RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 12:19:27
subject: <b>more fuel?</b>
body:
Most people seem to be considering Demandred and Fain, while eliminating some of the others out of hand. Slowly, we're moving onto people like Taim, my first guess, and then later, Moridin. <br />However, I think that we should also consider Semirhage for the job. Being of the camp that thinks her capture was planned, I think that this book gives her some screen time, and the opportunity to show some of her guile. Might the attack of trollocs and myrdraal not just be an attempt to force Rand into a quick truce with the Seanchean? If she's trying to keep him blinded from the fact that his meeting with the DotNM is fraudulant, shouldn't she try to keep him off balance with an attack? She does such a good job of scaring Rand that even after the failed meeting, Rand still wants a truce because he doesn't think that he can handle everyone in time. I think that this interpretation might explain Demandred's supposed anger at the meeting, and his blatant attempts to make Sammael a real suspect, even admitting he might be wrong. Semirhage makes a gutsy move, and Demandred, for the sake of his alliance- Mesaana being temporarily cowed- must work to keep his co-conspirators from jeopardizing his position.<br /> Much more plausible -I think- than Fain, who didn't bother to show up at the end of the attack to potentially kill a distracted Rand like he did back in that Blades chapter with Riatan(?).


created: 2005-11-08 19:43:59
subject: <b>ways?</b>
body:
Since the cleansing of the taint we havn't seen the ways.  How do we even know if the big black wind is still around? Off subject but still...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-10 16:29:31
subject: <b>Location</b>
body:
I've posted this once or twice on the message boards but thought I'd bring it up here too.<br /><br />One way to locate Rand would be for Semirhage to have an object she'd done one of those location-wards (like Moiraine's coins) -inverted of course- slipped onto one of Rand's peace emmisaries to the Seanchan during one of the mettings.<br />I'm not saying this is definitely what happened but it is a very possible explanation imo.<br />If this was the case I suppose it lends support to one of the Mesaana/Demandred/Semirhage Axis sending the army.


created: 2005-11-13 17:51:00
subject: <b>My take on it...</b>
body:
I think that Demi sent them working with Semi and Mes.  Where is Demi now?  I think he is out in the Blight preparing the Shadowspawn armies for the Final Battle, which is why we havent seen him yet.  The three of them have been working together on a plan for a while now, and it stands to reason their truce is all the stronger now that they not only have Rand to worry about, but Moridin to.  They all still want to be Nae'Blis.<br /><br />How would they know where he is?<br /><br />Since all three of the Forsaken are working together, they up their chances of being able to find Rand.  Their are AS in Rands party (Mes), they were negotiating with Seanchean (Semi), and they can still read the pattern.  More than enough opportunity for one of the three to be able to find Rand.<br /><br />How could they send out the Trollocs?<br /><br />Sure Semi and Mes were awfully busy with their alter-egos, but Demandred has been quiet and imo is actually housed in the Blight preparing for the Final Battle.  Demi could easily disguise himself as Sammael and would have to to avoid suspicion from Moridin, who they dont want to know of the plan.<br /><br />What is the plan?<br /><br />Stands to reason that it would be a multi pronged attack considering now we have Forsaken working together as opposed to against each other.<br /><br />Step 1:<br />Understand your enemy.  Send out a hundred thousand trollocs and Myrdraal to get an idea of your enemy.  If you kill him great, now we just have Moridin to worry about.  If we dont kill him, Demi gets an idea of what he is up against militarily, and Semi gets an idea of what she is up against psychologically.<br /><br />Step 2:<br />Its clear that LTT has a lot more control over Rand than they previously thought.  Get Rand to meet with the Seanchean, where we will attempt to collar him.  Having Rand on a collar will help an awful bunch to dispose of Moridin, and if we fail, we have Semirhage as Rands captive where she is able to work against Rands psyche.  Making his closest generals (Bashere, etc) wary of him helping Demis job in his  military commander position, and quite possibly winning the war just by making Rand go insane, since they know after step 1 that he is awfully close.<br /><br />Where do we go from here.  Mesannas role I havent been able to put in there, and quite possibly Graendal could be used as well (though probably unknowingly just like with Sammael).


created: 2005-11-13 21:01:20
subject: <b>there is nothing to learn by killing 100,000 troops.</b>
body:
Jordan went to a US militery academy, so he has a good idea of what makes for brillent militery stratigy.  As a former soldier, I sure hope they didn't teach him that throwing 100,000 troops away just to see how fast your opponnet can kill them serves as some kind of militery statigey.  What can demmy learn by Rand killing 100,000 trollocs + 1000 mydrall  Not that the forsaken show the shadowspawn the any kind of respect in terms of their death, but even a bad militery leader can tell you that needless wasting of resources in stupid.  And Demy is a genius.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 04:11:59
subject: <b>A distraction</b>
body:
I think that it may not be neccissarily an outright attack on Rand. It could be a distraction to get Mordin to look at this, so another Forsaken can get something by him. Graendal would be perfect for this. Plus Aran'gar wonders who started playing her own games, which means that someone is not only playing as Sammeal(sp?) but maybe trying to set Aran'gar up to make her look like she did it.


created: 2005-11-16 17:16:09
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
I came to the same conclusion, mostly by eliminating people who could not (IMHO) have done this thing.  <br />Plus, I believe that Demandred would think it was extremely cunning to impersonate Sammael... the other forsaken would not expect him to do this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Siddy's Green<br /><font color="gray">*wears the bowtie*</font><br /><br /><font color="teal"><i>Obama - &quot;Vote for me, I'm Barack Obama&quot;<br />McCain - &quot;Vote for me, I'm not Barack Obama&quot;</i></font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-30 18:03:03
subject: <b>Borderlander:</b>
body:
&quot;Jordan went to a US militery academy, so he has a good idea of what makes for brillent militery stratigy. As a former soldier, I sure hope they didn't teach him that throwing 100,000 troops away just to see how fast your opponnet can kill them serves as some kind of militery statigey. What can demmy learn by Rand killing 100,000 trollocs + 1000 mydrall Not that the forsaken show the shadowspawn the any kind of respect in terms of their death, but even a bad militery leader can tell you that needless wasting of resources in stupid. And Demy is a genius.&quot;<br /><br />Now, this would make sense if Demandred actually cared one bit about the welfare, or lives for that matter, of his troops. Remember that these are the bad guys, and bad guys tend to do things like this.<br /><br />A more important point, though, against your argument about it being nonsense to throw away 100,000 troops just to check your enemy's strength, is that this argument is more relevant if the total number of troops at your disposal does not top 100,000 by quite a bit. I've seen it suggested that several million Trolloks are camped in the Mountains of Dhoom, the Blight, and around Shayol Ghul, and that the breeding rate of Trolloks is awesome.<br /><br />So, if you have perhaps 5-10 million disposable soldiers, and the opportunity to breed more, why would you not sacrifice 100,000, if it could mean the difference between victory and defeat? (Remember Sun Tzu: &quot;Know yourself and your enemy, and you will never be defeated in a hundred battles.&quot;<br /><br /><br />As for who sent them, my first gut feeling was either Moridin (who knows where to find Rand, and who would benefit from knowledge about Rand's strength - I've started to doubt that it's him, though, because he's likely not the main commander of the Shadow, and I seem to remember reading something about him not wanting to kill Rand, for some reason... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> ) or Semirhage (whose motive would be to stress Rand before the meeting - although such stress could just boost his already extreme paranoia. The question is whether Semirhage is aware of this paranoia).<br /><br /><br />Good discussion, though, although I miss some more arguments about motives, rather than opportunity and suchlike. Everyone can in some way or another be said to have had the opportunity, but not everyone has a motive. (Read: Fain has no motive. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Several palms short of an oasis.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 00:38:55
subject: <b>I don't know who the impersonator is</b>
body:
there isn't enough info in the Forsaken scene to determine. However, when Aran'gar wonders who is playing her game, why does everyone assume that means impersonating Sammael?  I believe it means moving the Shadowspawn through the ways.  This meshes nicely with her thoughts that Moridin was going to be sorry about al'Thor.  Because she was the one behind the attack at the manor in Tear.


created: 2005-12-05 21:15:13
subject: <b>Why can't it be Moridin</b>
body:
To throw it out there.  Maybe Moridin sent the Trollics, but since it failed hes trying to cover his tracks with the story regarding Samuel.<br /><br />just a thought


created: 2006-02-08 00:39:13
subject: <b>why was Cyndane discounted?</b>
body:
No one has spoken of the possibility of Cyndane having sent the Trollocs. <br /><br />1) We all know that her main goal is to kill Rand/LTT.<br />She has no hope of gaining power with the DO anymore, why not take a risk to kill Rand?<br /><br />2) She has a great reason to go to some trouble to hide what she's doing... She obviously wouldn't want Moridin to know.<br /><br />3) What makes you think she's totally broken? She can't fight in an obvious way but the Daughter of the Night knows how to be sneaky.<br /><br />One simple reason why it wasn't Fain: he wants to kill Rand himself. Remember Far Madding?<br /><br />Taim: most people will hold him responsible for any misterious event... but the fact remains that he is NOT a Forsaken. Why would the DO add new Forsakens after naming a Naebliss?<br /><br />


created: 2006-04-30 08:14:29
subject: <b>Back him up</b>
body:
I agree with the theorie of it being damadred. we learned early on in the series that the eyeless can detect the power. assuming that it can tell the difference between saidin and saidar (which is highly possible as they are so unlike eachother) the myrddral would know if the one disguised as sammael was male or female. also i would disagree with fain disguising himself as sammael as we all know the hatred he has for rand. many times fain has declared that he wanted to be the one that killed him. if the attack was merely to capture rand for fain to be able to do that, than the myrdral at the window wouldn't have been ready to take off rand's head. also to say that sammael could be brought back is something disagreeable. mashadar, as we learn, kills people by devouring their souls. the soul is the thing that the DO uses to resurect people into new bodies so if there is no soul left than it can't be done.


created: 2005-11-02 06:22:53
subject: <b>Very interesting theory</b>
body:
Don't know where to vote! It makes what you're saying, but Rand is the saviour of mankind whereas Egwene is the saviour of the WT, which although is important, Rand is the main man.<br />I always thought that Egwene was acting like that as a sign of strength and in her own way, rebellion. She acts like the perfect novice so people can have nothing to throw at her. This way she'll get people on her side, maybe cause dissention in the ranks. Also she is a nice person, even though annoying, so she would naturally want to help people. Plus when she gets into power, people will respect her more....<br />She loves the WT and she can not help it by being anything than other than what she is being.<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-02 11:50:42
subject: <b>Good!</b>
body:
Loved it, loved the paralells and connections made to the Bible. Good Work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 12:00:49
subject: <b>Riiiiiiiiiiiiight</b>
body:
<b>She is the suffering and rejected servant. As Christ was rejected as King of Israel, so Egwene is rejected as Amyrlin Seat by her should-be subjects. Like Christ, she suffers physical punishment. And though Amyrlin by right, she takes on the role of a novice, just as Christ &quot;made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.&quot; [Phil. 2:7].</b><br /><br />Egwene is not the Amyrlin by right, she is the Amyrlin by force.  There has been no vote to depose Elaida, and RJ confirmed in a QotW that Elaida was validly elected.  Since no one in the books has put forth an explanation as to why Elaida is not valid, that makes Egwene a false Amyrlin.  Not only that, she was elected by nine real Sitters.  No one has ever given a reason why the Sitters who remained are suddenly invalid.  It was thought up as a PR scam.  An Amyrlin need eleven votes and Egwene had nine.<br />She is closer to an anti-christ than Christ.<br /><br /><b>She refuses rescue in order to accomplish her greater purpose. &quot;But Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?' &quot; [Matt 26:52-54].</b><br />This is a rather humorous quotation since she was the one who called for a declaration of war and insisted on forcing the march to Tar Valon, not to mention established a seige that will punish the innocent in Tar Valon as much or more than the guilty.<br /><br /><b>She resists Alviarin's temptations [p.523], as Christ refused Satan in the wilderness.</b><br />Alviarin didn't really offer her anything, and she more than suspected it was a trap.  Satan hit Christ when He was weakened, and not knowing who or what He really was.  Christ offered reasons from Scripture to reject each temptation.  He had much better reasons than, &quot;I like it here.&quot; <br /><br /><b>She counts her sufferings as a badge of honor [pp.516-517]. Compare to 1 Pet 4:13, &quot;But rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.&quot;</b><br />Actually, this doesn't say He rejoiced to suffer.  He prayed &quot;let this chalice pass...&quot; but added, &quot;Not my will by Thy Will...&quot;  Egwene has never humbly acknowledged a higher or superior authority.  She plans to punish people for not anticipating what she would want.<br /><br /><br /><b>She performs signs and wonders that confirm her identity, such as juggling the seven balls and seven rings of fire, a feat no one could hope to match [p.507]. This is akin to Christ's miracles.</b><br />The miracles were to prove that He was God by demonstrating His power over reality.  The ability to channel does not make one Amyrlin, nor does strength (which she was born with through no merit of her own) make you good at it.  Plus she was showing off to put her teacher in her place and to demonstrate that she didn't listen to the Accepted.  By contrast Christ acknowledged civil authority, even as he stated Pilate had no business judging God.<br /><br /><b>Others marvel at her words, as exemplified by her chats with Bennae [pp.513-514]and later Mattin Stepaneos [pp.525-526]. People were constantly amazed at Jesus's words.</b><br />I hardly call illegally spilling secrets and correcting gossip to be anything on a par with divine wisdom and preaching a radical new moral theology and advocating a selfless way of life.<br /><br /><b>Her righteous anger is kindled against evil [pp.505,519,521], as when Christ the called down the Pharisees or threw the moneychangers out of the temple.</b><br /><br />I just recall her being angry and making an inaccurate accusation against Beonin over a personal betrayal.  What evil was she outraged over?  The enforced Compulsion on new sisters?  The severe gender discrimination of the Tower?<br /><br /><b>She prophesies impending judgement on the Tower, with her dream of the ravens and the lamp with a white flame [pp.96-97]. Christ prophesied the coming destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, &quot;Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.' &quot; [Matt 24:1-3]. (The temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, some 40 years later.)</b><br />There is no indication that any sort of divine judgement is coming on the Tower. She predicts a Seanchan attack, not the complete and utter devastation of the organization forever.<br /><br /><b>She refuses to compromise on the truth of her identity, no matter the cost. &quot;Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, 'Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?' Jesus said, 'I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.' Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, 'What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?' And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.&quot; [Mark 14:61-64].</b><br />Then why does she put on novice white and obey as she is told?<br /><br /><b>She helps, comforts, and tends to the novices, whom the Aes Sedai ignore [pp.517-519]. The novices are much like the poor, powerless underclass of Israel, the &quot;sinners and tax gathers&quot; with whom Jesus associated. The Aes Sedai (at least those in the Tower), are much like the Pharisees, the religious and political elite of Christ's day. To give just one quote from Jesus on the Pharisees, &quot; 'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.' &quot; [Matt 23:27]. If this isn't an apt description of the White Tower at this point, I don't know what is.</b><br />The difference is the Aes Sedai have all been through novice training themselves, and are not being hypocritical.  And Egwene is endangering them by her actions.  She is not promising them any reward or justice either.  In fact, she encourages them to listen to the Aes Sedai.  And rather than say &quot;Yes, things are going badly, here's what you have to do,&quot; she comforts them and tells them everything is all right.<br /><br /><b>She prefers to suffer herself rather than have the novices suffer. &quot;Word of groups would surely leak out, and she would not be the only one sent to Silviana. She would make that trip as often as necessary, but she did not want to earn it for others.&quot; [p.517]. This is the very essence of Christ's self-sacrifice.</b> <br />Her suffering is not for the novices.  She is willfully acting against the advice she gives them, claiming to be superior to them, and her sufferings are the result. <br /><br /><b>She is concerned with the novices' character, and encourages them to be good. When Alivistere trips her [p.504], Egwene's concern is not revenge, but the girl's character. When novices come to her for advice, she tells them to &quot;Obey the Aes Sedai. Obey the Accepted. Work hard. Then work harder.&quot; [p.518 ]. Compare to Romans 13:1-3, &quot;Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.&quot;</b><br />Bear in mind that Paul wrote Romans.  And her defiance of legitimately elected authority is in stark contradiction to the scripture quoted here.<br /><br /><b>She sets the example for her novices. &quot;She had been unable to make Nicola behave properly while she was openly Amyrlin, but it seemed she might have succeeded while masquerading as a novice herself. Remarkable.&quot; [p.518 ]. This passage bears a strong resemblance to God's coming in the flesh to set the perfect example. &quot;For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps 'Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth,' who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously.&quot; This standard of character exemplified by Christ is one that Egwene follows perfectly throughout this chapter.</b><br />Nicola listened because now she knew there was no getting around the rules.  Silviana taught her that, unlike Tiana and Egwene.  Notice she tries to imitate Egwene early on and gets slapped down hard.  You talk about Christ setting an example, but Egwene is <i>not</i> setting an example.  She does not want the novices doing what she is doing, and the few who try to imitate her are punished.<br /><br /><b>Even her enemies find no fault in her. Egwene is a model novice, she performs her chores, follows the rules, does not complain, sets a good example for the other novices. In fact, the single thing she gets in trouble for is being the Amyrlin Seat. This, I believe, is the source of the resignation in Silviana's voice [p.533]. And so with Christ, &quot;Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, 'Crucify Him, crucify Him!' Pilate said to them, 'You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.' The Jews answered him, &quot;We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.' &quot;</b><br />They are impressed with her stubborness, and many of them cannot be bothered with punishing her.  This is not to say they approve of her false claims.  There is far better reason to believe that Silviana is resigned from the lack of effect her punishment is having than that she believes Egwene does not deserve it.<br /><br /><b>She is humble, not considering herself above menial labor, as Christ washed the feet of His disciples, but performing her chores with diligence and wholeheartedness.</b> <br />If she is humble, why does she demand recognition as Amyrlin?  Why does she refuse to follow the rules for novices?  She claims she is only doing her chores as a prisoner, but the line between what she will and will not put up with seems fairly arbitrary to me.  How humble is a woman who castigates her only loyal supporters for saving the world from a drought, because the solution may endanger her plan to seize power?  She plainly saw her getting the upper hand over the Hall as a priority, and saving the world from the Dark One's touch clearly was not worth endangering her plan for self-aggrandizement.<br /><br /><b>She is content with her circumstances, neither complaining nor despairing, but abiding in faith, hope, and love, as 1 Cor 13:13 instructs.</b><br />Show some evidence of faith or love.  And if Christ was content, why did He constantly challenge the authorities and the accepted teachings of the day?<br /><br /><b>Her own recognize her true identity [pp.518,533]. Her character, words, and actions leave no doubt in the minds of the novices that she is the Amyrlin Seat for true. Just as Peter observed, &quot; 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' &quot; [John 6:68 -69].</b><br />She, alone is NOT the Amyrlin Seat.  There is another with an equal or superior claim.  Peter's words were in reply to a query as to whether the apostles would leave Him for suggesting something new and unthinkable.  The novices treat her as a cult hero because she is nice to them.  Probably because none of them are from the Two Rivers.  And as for His &quot;own&quot; recognizing Him - the scriptural verse that springs to mind is &quot;He came unto His own, and...His own received Him not.[John, 1:11]&quot;<br /><br />Your discourse is self-contradictory and superficial and reveals a lack of both knowledge and understanding about Christian Scripture and the nature of Jesus Christ.  Your analysis of Egwene is similarly innaccurate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 15:20:04
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
You're right on the whole, but you picked way to many shaky-at-best examples that make it easy to pick apart, just like Cannoli did.  A few points are correct though.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 15:20:16
subject: <b>It's an interesting idea, but...</b>
body:
Some of your points, such as Christ being able to call down legions of Angels to rescue Him, don't fit with Egwene because at the end of the day she doesn't have Christ's power to back her up. Rand is a much better fit because of a couple key points:<br /><br />1) He's going to die for everyone (add to this the Finn's recently revealed answer of &quot;you must die to live&quot; and you get a distinctive Christ paralell).<br /><br />2) Obvious symbolism, like the wounds on the hands and on his side. <br /><br />3)Everyone follows his example, and everyone has been waiting for him to come (as the Jews waited for the Christ). Egwene is just sort of... there.<br /><br />These are key components to Christ. Egwene is more comparable to someone who follows His example that Christ Himself.<br /><br />But definitely an interesting idea and a good read. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 22:01:32
subject: <b>She can't be Jesus</b>
body:
She's still the One Who Shall Remain Unnamed Until She Apologises To Mat. I'm sure Jesus would have apologised ( or better yet, not acted like the girl did ).<br /><br />Yes, I'm being petty, but I have the right to be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Anyway, on to some serious stuff.<br /><br /><b>She is content with her circumstances, neither complaining nor despairing, but abiding in faith, hope, and love, as 1 Cor 13:13 instructs</b><br /><br />Where did you get this? The child is certainly not contenet with her circumstances, she's doing everything she possibly can to change them around and exact cruel, Amyrlin fiery wrath upon those who have wronged her! She's also abiding in &quot;Standard Two Rivers Woman I-am-right Stubborness&quot; rather than &quot;faith, hope and love&quot;.<br /><br /><b>She is humble, not considering herself above menial labor, as Christ washed the feet of His disciples, but performing her chores with diligence and wholeheartedness.</b><br /><br />This one is also a joke. She's not doing her chores out of any sort of humility, but to preserve her image. Because if she didn't she'd look plain stubborn.<br /><br /><b>Her own recognize her true identity [pp.518,533]. Her character, words, and actions leave no doubt in the minds of the novices that she is the Amyrlin Seat for true. Just as Peter observed, &quot; 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' &quot; [John 6:68 -69].</b><br /><br />This one is inherently incoherent. The child has made it quite clear she is <i>not</i> one of the novices. And if you are saying that she <i>is</i> one of them, then she no longer has the authority for all her prideful behaviour.<br /><br /><b>Even her enemies find no fault in her. Egwene is a model novice, she performs her chores, follows the rules, does not complain, sets a good example for the other novices. In fact, the single thing she gets in trouble for is being the Amyrlin Seat. This, I believe, is the source of the resignation in Silviana's voice [p.533]. And so with Christ, &quot;Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, 'Crucify Him, crucify Him!' Pilate said to them, 'You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.' The Jews answered him, &quot;We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.' &quot;</b><br /><br />I'd like to note that her #1 recognised enemy, Cannoli (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) has indeed found numerous faults in her. Even I have, and I like her ( though her past deeds are not forgotten, or forgiven ). As an aside, as an atheist I know little about such things, but I did not think that the Romans were Jesus' enemies. Aren't all men his brothers or some such? The Romans were the Jews' enemies.<br /><br /><b>She sets the example for her novices. &quot;She had been unable to make Nicola behave properly while she was openly Amyrlin, but it seemed she might have succeeded while masquerading as a novice herself. Remarkable.&quot; [p.518 ]. This passage bears a strong resemblance to God's coming in the flesh to set the perfect example. &quot;For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps 'Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth,' who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously.&quot; This standard of character exemplified by Christ is one that Egwene follows perfectly throughout this chapter.</b><br /><br />How on earth is she setting an example for novices? Those who tried to imitate her were beaten and broken, and she counsels them to do the contrary of what she does! &quot;Do as I say, not as I do&quot; is not <i>leading by example</i>.<br /><br /><b>She is concerned with the novices' character, and encourages them to be good. When Alivistere trips her [p.504], Egwene's concern is not revenge, but the girl's character. When novices come to her for advice, she tells them to &quot;Obey the Aes Sedai. Obey the Accepted. Work hard. Then work harder.&quot; [p.518 ]. Compare to Romans 13:1-3, &quot;Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.&quot;</b><br /><br />She didn't give a rat's ass about Alvistere. She just wanted to show that she was smarter than her. I personally like to do this sort of thing all the time, and it's because I like to gloat about it afterwards.<br /><br /><b>She prefers to suffer herself rather than have the novices suffer. &quot;Word of groups would surely leak out, and she would not be the only one sent to Silviana. She would make that trip as often as necessary, but she did not want to earn it for others.&quot; [p.517]. This is the very essence of Christ's self-sacrifice.</b><br /><br />... This is only the basic modicum of decency. Having other people suffer for your arrogance would be unforgivable. It is not &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; in any way. She is not sacrificing herself to avoid harm to others, she is stopping others from taking harm for her!<br /><br />She helps, comforts, and tends to the novices, whom the Aes Sedai ignore [pp.517-519]. The novices are much like the poor, powerless underclass of Israel, the &quot;sinners and tax gathers&quot; with whom Jesus associated. The Aes Sedai (at least those in the Tower), are much like the Pharisees, the religious and political elite of Christ's day. To give just one quote from Jesus on the Pharisees, &quot; 'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.' &quot; [Matt 23:27]. If this isn't an apt description of the White Tower at this point, I don't know what is.<br /><br />Clearly you do not. Aes Sedai are not hypocrites. They have all been novices, and passed through it. In fact, they probably do not comfort the novices because they are sacred themselves!<br /><br /><b>Her righteous anger is kindled against evil [pp.505,519,521], as when Christ the called down the Pharisees or threw the moneychangers out of the temple.</b><br /><br />That would be nice. It's been so long since anyone but Rand ( and now Lan ) actually did something about the Shadow. But you're mistaken. She hasn't. She's still settling her own insurrection for power and prestige.<br /><br /><b>Others marvel at her words, as exemplified by her chats with Bennae [pp.513-514]and later Mattin Stepaneos [pp.525-526]. People were constantly amazed at Jesus's words.</b><br /><br />We have a slight difference in scale here. Although if the child is capable of dissipating rumours, she may be a very powerful presence in the Westlands.<br /><br /><b>She performs signs and wonders that confirm her identity, such as juggling the seven balls and seven rings of fire, a feat no one could hope to match [p.507]. This is akin to Christ's miracles.</b><br /><br />All right, she's drunk on forkroot and doing things far <i>beneath</i> what hundreds of people can do. The Battles of Tarwin's Gap and Falme, the rain in Alcair Dal, the Cleansing of <i>saidin</i>, now those could equivocate to miracles.<br /><br /><b>She resists Alviarin's temptations [p.523], as Christ refused Satan in the wilderness.</b><br /><br />Once again look to Rand. And the Cup Ba'alzamon offered him in <i>The Eye of the World</i>. That I think is the true parrallel.<br /><br />I'm sorry, it's a nice try, but it doesn't hold up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 01:44:55
subject: <b>Some clarification and rebuttal</b>
body:
First, in case I need to elaborate, I am focusing in on a single chapter.  There's a bit of truth in looking at Mr. Jordan's work as a series of short stories woven together into novels and the whole arc.  My claim only extends to the borders of this chapter; I don't think there's any reason to think of Egwene as Christ through the whole series.  But in this one chapter, I found it pretty compelling.<br /><br />I think a couple of you are looking at this <i>way</i> too literaly.  The Rand-as-Christ theories would never hold up to this kind of dissection.  What you guys have done is akin to objecting that Christ was never blinded, or lost a hand, or had children; therefore Rand can't be Christ!  Now that's just silly, so I expect a little leeway should be given on the specifics.  A couple of the objections that can be summed up as ultra-literalist:<br /><br />-Alviarin's temptation Egwene being different that Satan's temptation of Christ<br />-the future Seachan devestation of the Tower not literally qualifying as divine judgement<br /><br />A slightly more subtle error in literalism is made in several <i>dramatically inappropriate</i> objections.  What I mean is that these objections don't take the story itself at face value.  Randland is a moralistic universe.  The Light battles the Shadow.  Good faces evil.  If you were writing an essay entitled &quot;Shades of Grey: Morality in the World of Robert Jordan&quot; it would be perfectly appropriate to discuss whether the Forsaken are really evil or just misunderstood, and how morally accountable Mat is for all the lives he bowls over.  But when you're talking about the symbolism of a book, you have to take it's assumptions at face value.  And the protagonists are the good guys; it's on this very assumption that we can ignore Rand's many failings and draw a legitimate comparison to Christ, when at a view far removed from the story he could not unreasonably be compared to Antichrist.  Objections I consider dramatically inappropriate:<br /><br />-Questioning the rebellion as a whole when thematically it's on the side of good and the Tower is on the side of evil<br />-Playing &quot;Who's a more legitimate Amyrlin?&quot;, for the same reason<br /><br />Elaida is selfish, ruthless, and powerhungry (building a palace to rise higher than the Tower!?), and if you think Egwene is any of those things, I'm afraid you have a sore misunderstanding of her.<br /><br />Several more objections seem to stem from a misconception that I am trying to *equate* Egwene with Christ, as if I were claiming Christ Himself were disguised as Egwene!  That isn't at all what I'm saying.  I'm saying that for this chapter, Egwene's story is much like Christ's story.  The symbolism is supported by the fact that Egwene displays rather Christ-like character through the chapter.  Which is not the same as saying she's perfect or literally Christ, or she should be doing literally what Christ would be doing.  Objections that fall into this category include:<br /><br />-the fact that Egwene is not actually preaching the Gospel<br />-Egwene's display of the Power not being &quot;miraculous&quot; enough (she's only trying to prove she's Amyrlin, not God.  Last I checked, the bar for being God's a little higher!)<br />-Nitpicking possible minor moral failings in Egwene, some of which occurred several books ago<br /><br />To be clear, when I somewhat grandiously said &quot;Even her enemies find no fault in her,&quot; what I mean was: the only &quot;fault&quot; anyone ever found in Jesus was His claim to Diety.  And the only thing Silviana's ever spanked Egwene for is acting as if she were Amyrlin.  Got it?<br /><br />A few more objections seem to have missed the key point that Egwene is simultaneously both Novice and Amyrlin.  In the ways in which she <i>can</i> be a Novice, she is an exemplary Novice.  But she is also Amyrlin, which means she can't be <i>merely</i> a Novice.  You guys seem to be playing both ends against the middle on this one, forgetting all the while that the incongruities you point out as Egwene fills two conflicting roles only highlight the analogy to Christ, Whose simultaneous identity as God and Man is far more paradoxical.  Because Christ also was the perfect man in the ways He could be.  But He was also God, which meant He went around claiming to be God, forgiving sin, and accepting worship.  If a mere man, not being God, did any of those things it would be blasphemy of the highest order.  But when Jesus did them, it was not, because He really is God.<br /><br />Just the same, any mere Novice who did what Egwene does would be guilty of the worst sort of disrespect and insubordination.  But Egwene is right in doing what she does precisely because she is really Amyrlin (dramatically inappropriate objections aside).<br /><br /><b>I just recall her being angry and making an inaccurate accusation against Beonin over a personal betrayal. What evil was she outraged over?</b><br /><br />Since you didn't bother checking the page references I supplied, I'll list them out:<br />- The horrid state of the Tower regarding all the sisters hating and fearing each other (top of 505)<br />- Sisters doing nothing to comfort the frightened novices and accepted (middle of 519)<br />- Again, the Ajahs considering each other enemies (middle of 521)<br /><br /><b>The difference is the Aes Sedai have all been through novice training themselves, and are not being hypocritical.<br /><br />Aes Sedai are not hypocrites. They have all been novices, and passed through it. In fact, they probably do not comfort the novices because they are sacred themselves!</b><br /><br />I can't say as I understand your points here.  The White Tower is like a whitewashed tomb in the sense that behind the sparkling glittering facade the Tower is rotten with strife, fear, and hatred.<br /><br /><b>Nicola listened because now she knew there was no getting around the rules. [...] You talk about Christ setting an example, but Egwene is not setting an example. She does not want the novices doing what she is doing, and the few who try to imitate her are punished.<br /><br />How on earth is she setting an example for novices? Those who tried to imitate her were beaten and broken, and she counsels them to do the contrary of what she does! &quot;Do as I say, not as I do&quot; is not leading by example.</b><br /><br />&quot;She had been unable to make Nicola behave properly while she was openly Amyrlin, but it seemed she might have succeeded while masquerading as a novice herself. Remarkable.&quot; --p.518<br /><br />I just don't know how Mr. Jordan could have made it any clearer.  While Silviana's strap certainly discouraged any outright rebellion, it's the immense respect Nicola has gained for Egwene that inspires her to really give it her all.<br /><br /><b>If she is humble, why does she demand recognition as Amyrlin?<br /><br />She's still settling her own insurrection for power and prestige.</b><br /><br />If Christ is humble, why does He want to be worshipped?<br /><br />In actuality, Egwene she doesn't demand recognition as Amyrlin from anyone.  She simply doesn't do what an Amyrlin wouldn't do.  And if you think this war she's waging is about Egwene and Egwene's pride and Egwene's rights, reread p.94 &quot;Acquiesence would be as sharp a blow to the rebellion as her execution.  Maybe sharper.&quot;  Egwene has a duty to all those who follow her and trust her.  If she collapses, the rebels will fall apart, all those who trust her will be hurt, and Elaida will continue doing horrible things that weaken the Tower furthur.  Now go read Chapter 24 again in a new light, and try not to think the worst of Egwene while you're reading it.<br /><br /><b>Show some evidence of faith or love. And if Christ was content, why did He constantly challenge the authorities and the accepted teachings of the day?</b><br /><br />Sure thing.  Faith-- not taking the easy escape, enduring temporal punishment for a lasting good, believing she can win her war.  Love-- comforting the Novices, helping them with their lesson, encouraging Leane, suffering through it all so that the Tower might be healed and injustice eventually righted.<br /><br />To your question about Christ, He had a personal peace and contentment that permeated His earthly life.  His challenge to authorities and accepted teachings was on the basis of the fact that He had the truth, and He had come to expressly shed the light of truth to all men.  Truth is always a challenge to falsehood.<br /><br /><b>And as for His &quot;own&quot; recognizing Him - the scriptural verse that springs to mind is &quot;He came unto His own, and...His own received Him not.[John, 1:11]&quot;</b><br /><br />Good quote, but the &quot;His own&quot; in this verse refers to the Jews nationally.  Try John 10:14, &quot;I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.&quot;<br /><br /><b>As an aside, as an atheist I know little about such things, but I did not think that the Romans were Jesus' enemies. Aren't all men his brothers or some such? The Romans were the Jews' enemies.</b><br /><br />God would have no man for an enemy; yet there are those would willingly make themselves enemies of God.  In at least a figurative sense, I'd have to say those who were crucifying Christ probably qualified as enemies, at least at the time.<br /><br /><b>She didn't give a rat's ass about Alvistere. She just wanted to show that she was smarter than her. I personally like to do this sort of thing all the time, and it's because I like to gloat about it afterwards.</b><br /><br />So because you would have had a particular motive in this situation, that automatically means Egwene does?  I don't see any indication in the text that Egwene was gloating.<br /><br /><b>She plans to punish people for not anticipating what she would want.<br /><br />She's doing everything she possibly can to change them around and exact cruel, Amyrlin fiery wrath upon those who have wronged her!</b><br /><br />Can you guys give me a reference for these?  I personally was taken by the complete <i>lack</i> of thoughts of revenge on Egwene's part.  Contrast with Galina's thoughts towards Therava.<br /><br />--Sinth<br />


created: 2005-11-03 20:15:57
subject: <b>Cannoli said</b>
body:
&quot;Egwene is not the Amyrlin by right, she is the Amyrlin by force. There has been no vote to depose Elaida, and RJ confirmed in a QotW that Elaida was validly elected. Since no one in the books has put forth an explanation as to why Elaida is not valid, that makes Egwene a false Amyrlin. Not only that, she was elected by nine real Sitters. No one has ever given a reason why the Sitters who remained are suddenly invalid. It was thought up as a PR scam. An Amyrlin need eleven votes and Egwene had nine.<br />She is closer to an anti-christ than Christ.&quot;<br /><br />When was Christ *elected* into power?<br /><br />Elaida gave up her right to be Amyrlin when she dissolved the Blue without just cause. Egwene represents ALL ajahs, while Elaida only represents SIX of the ajahs, and Elaida is still of the Red Ajah, preferencing them over the others. Elaida may be the Amyrlin by law, but Egwene is the Amyrlin by right and by custom (and Aes Sedai custom is often stronger than law).<br /><br />Of course, I don't think RJ was going for any specific symmetries with Christ when he wrote Egwenes plotline. I think it was just a side effect of her being the one who will save the WT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 20:20:29
subject: <b>Wow, if I wasn't such a respectful person...</b>
body:
<b>When was Christ *elected* into power?</b><br /><br />There are soooo many blasphemies I could come up with after this, and a quarter of them would get me sitebanned!<br /><br />Anyway, the child Amyrlin has broken much more custom than Elaida. If Elaida remains, at least, the Sea Folk Bargain is void. Then there's opening the novice book and bringing back the kin, swearing Aes Sedai into her service, <i>naming</i> Accepted into the position of Aes Sedai!<br /><br />The girl has no right to the position of Amyrlin, except the right of might. Not complainin' Rand's proven it's effectiveness countless times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 21:10:18
subject: <b>the best thing since sliced bread</b>
body:
connoli should lay off egwene she was chosen to lead the white tower just like jesus<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />  plus her raising was because of rand he eems to be changing all the rulers...perrin and lan are going to become kings i think... but i digress..<br />now i dont know much 'bout the bible cos ive only been to church like 8 times ( all of them forced by my highschool)but egwene is responsible for nicola's &quot;conversion&quot; to the straight and narrow. she lead by example. it is this that nicola respects. she may have had her arse beaten 6 ways from sunday but remember we often admire the people who have had the conviction to succeed where we have given up. <br /><br />btw cannoli seems to talk about egwene quite a lot......could it be love.........?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">SELF APPOINTED #1 HATER OF TUON <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />I DONT USUALLY CONDONE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.. BUT.. I'VE GOT A SLEDGE HAMMER FOR MAT IF HE'S WILLING TO DO IT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 22:21:26
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
I have read it through three times now - the second and third times with consideration that you are basing this only within the confines of the one chapter. I feel as though you would have been better making less, stronger points rather than many weaker ones. I could feel you stretching to make each point fit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Eg Alviarin's temptation of Egwene was rather lame (as some may say Satan's temptation of Christ was rather lame); the &quot;marvel at her words&quot;...&lt;cringe&gt;; juggling balls of light as miracles; etc etc.<br /><br />I did enjoy the righteous anger comparison and the allusion to destructive prophecy. But I can't help feeling that most of the comparisons were weak at best or outright wrong. I am not going to cry out: &quot;What copy of KoD were you reading?! It's nothing like mine!&quot;  but I felt that we were reading two different chapters.<br /><br />As RJ references many strands of mythology and even splits the examples amongst the characters, so that many characters can share facets of the same mythological entity, I have no problem with the equation of Egwene, within the boundaries of a single chapter, displaying many Christ-like similarities. I'm just not convinced that you demonstrated them effectively.<br /><br />I would love to see you do a series of these with comparisons with other divine or historical or mythological entities, eg. &quot;Egwene as Buddha&quot;<br /><br />Again, great effort and kudos to you for taking the time to actually write up a theory, but overall I voted &quot;No&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-11-03 23:41:50
subject: <b>ok cannoli</b>
body:
Why exactly do you like elanine so much lets look at it from the presepective of the American political system.  Bush was elected legally but I'd say along with most of the country now.  That he anin't doing a great job and perhaps someone else should be president.  By the same token yes egewene was elected legaly but as has been said many many times she is evil and has had it in for the blue and moraine since new spring.  She is petty, power hungry, and only trusts and listens to syncaphonts.  (much like Bush actually...)


created: 2005-11-03 23:44:01
subject: <b>oh yes</b>
body:
Realize that some of the problems people are having with this comes out of a hatrad of Christiantiy...(many of the people attracted to the WOT seem to be very anti-christian which may explain some people trying to turn it into a religon saying they can channel and such crap)


created: 2005-11-04 00:24:36
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
I'm not saying that your theory doesnt have valid points. It does. I'm saying that anyone that knows the bible that well would seem to me the kind of person that is superstitious about witchcraft and would avoid WoT like the anti-christ. Besides, Jesus was a fake...<br /><br />Just messin' with you all.<br /><br />But seriously.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 02:24:10
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
overall i thought it made very good sense. as i read the blackboard, i noticed 2 massive posts that attempted to pick apart the entire theory. the first one, by cannoli,  would have rather good, had it not sucked. the author quite obviously was not all that bright, and didn't bother to look at both sides of each situation. the second one was pretty much just another person repeating the first one with different phrasing. ill address the first one. even though im probably repeating things that have already been said numerous times.<br /><br />&quot;Egwene is not the Amyrlin by right, she is the Amyrlin by force.&quot;<br />okay, since she hasnt even been acknowledged by the tower as amyrlin, i dont see the validity of this.<br /><br />&quot;'She refuses rescue in order to accomplish her greater purpose. &quot;But Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?' &quot; [Matt 26:52-54].'&quot;<br />&quot;This is a rather humorous quotation since she was the one who called for a declaration of war and insisted on forcing the march to Tar Valon, not to mention established a seige that will punish the innocent in Tar Valon as much or more than the guilty.&quot;<br /><br />hold on a sec--why did she refuse a rescue? wasnt it because it would definitely kill people??!! and, note that Christ also said &quot;i came not to bring peace, but a sword&quot; (matt. 10:34) Christ wasnt anti-conflict either. he just meant going around killing people is a sure ticket to death and hell. also, i seem to recall egwene saying repeatedly that there would be no invasion, no fighting between the two forces if she could possibly settle it peacefully.<br /><br />&quot;'She resists Alviarin's temptations [p.523], as Christ refused Satan in the wilderness.'&quot;<br />&quot;Alviarin didn't really offer her anything, and she more than suspected it was a trap. Satan hit Christ when He was weakened, and not knowing who or what He really was. Christ offered reasons from Scripture to reject each temptation. He had much better reasons than, &quot;I like it here.&quot; &quot;<br /><br />and alviarin didnt hit egwene when she was weakened? remember, alviarin is going to silviana too. she knows exactly how much pain egwene is going through every day. and ill have to check, but i dont recall egwene every saying anything akin to &quot;i like it here.&quot; and i could go off on a tangent about cannoli's &quot;satan not knowing who or what Christ was&quot; crap and use that to further prove his unfitness to have his opinion recognized, but ill spare the readers.<br /><br />&quot;'She counts her sufferings as a badge of honor [pp.516-517]. Compare to 1 Pet 4:13, &quot;But rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.&quot;'&quot;<br />&quot;Actually, this doesn't say He rejoiced to suffer. He prayed &quot;let this chalice pass...&quot; but added, &quot;Not my will by Thy Will...&quot; Egwene has never humbly acknowledged a higher or superior authority. She plans to punish people for not anticipating what she would want.&quot;<br /><br />all i have to say about this is that i remember the word &quot;light!&quot; coming out of egwene's mouth on a number of occasions. i also remember her praying to the light. if that isnt acknowlegement of a superior authority, i dont know what is.<br /><br />&quot;'She performs signs and wonders that confirm her identity, such as juggling the seven balls and seven rings of fire, a feat no one could hope to match [p.507]. This is akin to Christ's miracles.'&quot;<br />&quot;The miracles were to prove that He was God by demonstrating His power over reality. The ability to channel does not make one Amyrlin, nor does strength (which she was born with through no merit of her own) make you good at it. Plus she was showing off to put her teacher in her place and to demonstrate that she didn't listen to the Accepted. By contrast Christ acknowledged civil authority, even as he stated Pilate had no business judging God.&quot;<br /><br />well, actually she wasnt so much showing off and putting the accepted in her place so much as destroying the lesson. the point was to show the novices how weak the &quot;amyrlin seat&quot; was. egwene showed them this wasnt necessarily true while proclaiming her identity. yeah, maybe not the best of motives, but certainly better than showing off. and where did Christ state that Pilate had no business judging God? not that im saying he did, i just dont remember him saying it.<br /><br />&quot;'Others marvel at her words, as exemplified by her chats with Bennae [pp.513-514]and later Mattin Stepaneos [pp.525-526]. People were constantly amazed at Jesus's words.'&quot;<br />&quot;I hardly call illegally spilling secrets and correcting gossip to be anything on a par with divine wisdom and preaching a radical new moral theology and advocating a selfless way of life.&quot;<br /><br />yeah, the author went a tad overboard on this one, but the point is still valid. bennae was clearly mulling over what egwene said, and seemed to agree somewhat. stepaneos didnt exactly marvel at her words, but he seemed enlightened none the less.<br /><br />&quot;'Her righteous anger is kindled against evil [pp.505,519,521], as when Christ the called down the Pharisees or threw the moneychangers out of the temple.'&quot;<br />&quot;I just recall her being angry and making an inaccurate accusation against Beonin over a personal betrayal. What evil was she outraged over? The enforced Compulsion on new sisters? The severe gender discrimination of the Tower?&quot;<br /><br />are you reading the right chapter? and do you suggest (major tangent here) that the wt should have been training men as well? even though for the past three thousand-odd years they have been tainted? and do you suggest that  sisters should be allowed to lie at will, and kill with the power? yeah, they find ways around the lying, but everyone knows that if an AS says something straight out, its true.<br /><br />&quot;'She refuses to compromise on the truth of her identity, no matter the cost. &quot;Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, 'Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?' Jesus said, 'I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.' Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, 'What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?' And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.&quot; [Mark 14:61-64].'&quot;<br />&quot;Then why does she put on novice white and obey as she is told?&quot;<br /><br />and why didnt Christ demand to be recognized from the start? why did he live as a poor homeless man and submit to the government? and he did submit to the gov't. if you doubt take a look at matt. 17:24-27 and luke 20:20-25 for starters. then theres the whole going to the cross without a fight deal...<br /><br />&quot;'She helps, comforts, and tends to the novices, whom the Aes Sedai ignore [pp.517-519]. The novices are much like the poor, powerless underclass of Israel, the &quot;sinners and tax gathers&quot; with whom Jesus associated. The Aes Sedai (at least those in the Tower), are much like the Pharisees, the religious and political elite of Christ's day. To give just one quote from Jesus on the Pharisees, &quot; 'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.' &quot; [Matt 23:27]. If this isn't an apt description of the White Tower at this point, I don't know what is.'&quot;<br />&quot;The difference is the Aes Sedai have all been through novice training themselves, and are not being hypocritical. And Egwene is endangering them by her actions. She is not promising them any reward or justice either. In fact, she encourages them to listen to the Aes Sedai. And rather than say &quot;Yes, things are going badly, here's what you have to do,&quot; she comforts them and tells them everything is all right.&quot;<br /><br />yeah, theyve been through the training, but when they were novices everything in the tower stayed in the same place, there were no ghosts, and saidar wasnt failing. and egwene did tell the novices what they needed to do. they couldnt do anything to change the situation, so she told them how to get through it. as for the &quot;egwene is endangering them by her actions. she is not promising them any reward or justice either&quot; comment, im not sure how far up his posterior he had to reach to pull that one out, and the only thing i can think of to say is: what the crap?<br /><br />&quot;'She prefers to suffer herself rather than have the novices suffer. &quot;Word of groups would surely leak out, and she would not be the only one sent to Silviana. She would make that trip as often as necessary, but she did not want to earn it for others.&quot; [p.517]. This is the very essence of Christ's self-sacrifice.'&quot;<br />&quot;Her suffering is not for the novices. She is willfully acting against the advice she gives them, claiming to be superior to them, and her sufferings are the result.&quot;<br /><br />once again, what the crap? when did he say she was suffering for the novices? and she is not claiming to be necessarily superior to them. on a higher level, yes, but she has no &quot;im better than you&quot; attitude.<br /><br />&quot;'She is concerned with the novices' character, and encourages them to be good. When Alivistere trips her [p.504], Egwene's concern is not revenge, but the girl's character. When novices come to her for advice, she tells them to &quot;Obey the Aes Sedai. Obey the Accepted. Work hard. Then work harder.&quot; [p.518 ]. Compare to Romans 13:1-3, &quot;Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.&quot;'&quot;<br />&quot;Bear in mind that Paul wrote Romans. And her defiance of legitimately elected authority is in stark contradiction to the scripture quoted here.&quot;<br /><br />i think im going to need to have it explained to me just exactly how egwene is defying legitimately elected authority by telling the novices to obey the aes sedai.<br /><br />&quot;'She sets the example for her novices. &quot;She had been unable to make Nicola behave properly while she was openly Amyrlin, but it seemed she might have succeeded while masquerading as a novice herself. Remarkable.&quot; [p.518 ]. This passage bears a strong resemblance to God's coming in the flesh to set the perfect example. &quot;For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps 'Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth,' who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously.&quot; This standard of character exemplified by Christ is one that Egwene follows perfectly throughout this chapter.'&quot;<br />&quot;Nicola listened because now she knew there was no getting around the rules. Silviana taught her that, unlike Tiana and Egwene. Notice she tries to imitate Egwene early on and gets slapped down hard. You talk about Christ setting an example, but Egwene is not setting an example. She does not want the novices doing what she is doing, and the few who try to imitate her are punished.&quot;<br /><br />nicola respects her now. thats why shes doing better. notice how she tries to imitate egwene early on and gets slapped down hard. and stays down. that hasnt happened before. now she obeying a novice. i doubt silviana taught her that.<br /><br />&quot;'Even her enemies find no fault in her. Egwene is a model novice, she performs her chores, follows the rules, does not complain, sets a good example for the other novices. In fact, the single thing she gets in trouble for is being the Amyrlin Seat. This, I believe, is the source of the resignation in Silviana's voice [p.533]. And so with Christ, &quot;Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, 'Crucify Him, crucify Him!' Pilate said to them, 'You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.' The Jews answered him, &quot;We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.' &quot;'&quot;<br />&quot;They are impressed with her stubborness, and many of them cannot be bothered with punishing her. This is not to say they approve of her false claims. There is far better reason to believe that Silviana is resigned from the lack of effect her punishment is having than that she believes Egwene does not deserve it.&quot;<br /><br />many of them cannot be bothered with punishing her? you could probably count on one hand the nuber of aes sedai that are currently doing something significant enough to take the time to tell egwene to go to the mistress of novices. and many of the aes sedai do tell her to. in fact, just about every aes sedai weve seen egwene come into contact with has sent her to silviana.<br /><br />&quot;'She is humble, not considering herself above menial labor, as Christ washed the feet of His disciples, but performing her chores with diligence and wholeheartedness. '&quot;<br />&quot;If she is humble, why does she demand recognition as Amyrlin? Why does she refuse to follow the rules for novices? She claims she is only doing her chores as a prisoner, but the line between what she will and will not put up with seems fairly arbitrary to me. How humble is a woman who castigates her only loyal supporters for saving the world from a drought, because the solution may endanger her plan to seize power? She plainly saw her getting the upper hand over the Hall as a priority, and saving the world from the Dark One's touch clearly was not worth endangering her plan for self-aggrandizement.&quot;<br /><br />if Christ was humble, why did he want recognition as the son of God? he was indisputably the most humble man ever to walk the earth, and also with the highest position. and you criticized egwene earlier for &quot;putting on novice white and doing as she is told.&quot; now your criticizing her for not doing as she is told? and her &quot;castigating her only loyal supporters for saving the world&quot; was perfectly reasonable. elayne and nynaever are, after all, idiots who deserved it. and egwene getting the upper hand over the hall is just as important. without egwene to direct them, they would have sat around till the last battle. a whole white tower will most likely be necessary for the last battle to be won. <br /><br />&quot;'She is content with her circumstances, neither complaining nor despairing, but abiding in faith, hope, and love, as 1 Cor 13:13 instructs.'&quot;<br />&quot;Show some evidence of faith or love. And if Christ was content, why did He constantly challenge the authorities and the accepted teachings of the day?&quot;<br /><br />well, theres always her helping the novices for love. and theres always her hanging on and believing she can win against all probablility for faith. and theres always matt. 17 and like 20 again for examples of Christ obeying the law. along with numerous occasions when he went to jerusalem for feasts that were required by law (too lazy to find the references). and Christ was content to live as a poor homeless man for his entire life. i think ive got you on this one...<br /><br />&quot;'Her own recognize her true identity [pp.518,533]. Her character, words, and actions leave no doubt in the minds of the novices that she is the Amyrlin Seat for true. Just as Peter observed, &quot; 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' &quot; [John 6:68 -69].'&quot;<br />&quot;She, alone is NOT the Amyrlin Seat. There is another with an equal or superior claim. Peter's words were in reply to a query as to whether the apostles would leave Him for suggesting something new and unthinkable. The novices treat her as a cult hero because she is nice to them. Probably because none of them are from the Two Rivers. And as for His &quot;own&quot; recognizing Him - the scriptural verse that springs to mind is &quot;He came unto His own, and...His own received Him not.[John, 1:11]&quot;&quot;<br /><br />well, im not sure, but i think you grossly misunderstood this. both the theory and your reference to the bible. read luke 4:16-30; especially verse 24. &quot;his own&quot; in that context refers to his home-nazareth. no one in nazareth believed him, and they in fact sought to kill him. when he went to judea, however, he had a much better response. &lt;end tangent&gt; i the theory i believe &quot;her own&quot;, when compared with Christ, is more like the church than just his countrymen. and egwene really isnt even all than nice to the novices. she comforts them, but she doesnt try to make friends with them. i cant imagine anyone crying on silvianas shoulder and being comforted by her. in effect, egwene is taking over the position that the mistress of novices is supposed to hold. and as for the &quot;probably because none of them are from the two rivers&quot; comment, she wasnt mean to the two rivers chicks. if you were in her position, would you you allow your old friends to get away with things just becasue they were old friends? well, based on the quality of reasoning youve displayed thus far, you probably would, so maybe i shouldnt have used you as an example. but anyway, most semi-intelligent people would realize how bad of an image favoritism puts out. if you need an example, look at taim. not too well thought of anymore.<br /><br />&quot;Your discourse is self-contradictory and superficial and reveals a lack of both knowledge and understanding about Christian Scripture and the nature of Jesus Christ. Your analysis of Egwene is similarly innaccurate.&quot;<br /><br />you know, the same could be said for you with much better arguments to back it up.<br /><br />holy crap i wrote a lot.


created: 2005-11-04 06:48:32
subject: <b>dacole - What the???</b>
body:
Quote: &quot;Realize that some of the problems people are having with this comes out of a hatrad of Christiantiy&quot;<br /><br />Umm, look mate, since you qualified this with a &quot;some&quot; in there you could argue that similarly that some of the problems people are having with this is a love of Christianity, no?<br /><br />Quote: &quot;many of the people attracted to the WOT seem to be very anti-christian&quot; <br /><br />Where is the evidence for this? Would you also state that many of the people attracted to the WOT seem to be very anti-buddhist or anti-islamic, or anti-taoist perhaps.<br /><br />Irregardless of other arguments you do understand the single greatest difference between the world of WoT and ours don't you? I'm not talking about Channelling. It is simply that in this <b>fantasy</b> world the Creator and the Creator's adversary ARE completely self evident. There is no need for faith or organised religon. In the world of WoT the Creator and the Great Lord really, and truly exist.<br /><br />The counters from Cannoli and Fanatic-Templar, IMHO, did not take a rabid anti-christian stance; they mostly just illustrated some of the weaker arguments put forth by Sinth (who BTW deserves a pat on the back for going through the effort of putting a theory together in the first place). <br /><br />my 2.2 cents (includes GST)


created: 2005-11-04 06:59:46
subject: <b>nettles - whoa yourself!</b>
body:
Settle petal - take a deep breath and pull out your worry beads! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Maybe you want to just summarise each of your counter-counter arguments:<br /><br />&quot;Cannoli talks crap&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Sinth quoted scripture to assist the theory proposition - Cannoli is allowed to quote scripture also to counter one or any of the propositions. The scripture quotes do not have to be on the same topic or from the same Chapter or Gospel. They are simply being used by two proponents to illustrate their arguments - get it? I'm not trying to get into a Flame-fest here - I just feel you are missing the point.<br /><br />In fact any commentators, pro or con, are within their rights to quote the Koran or even &quot;Life of Brian&quot; if they so wish to attempt to prop up their position/s. <br /><br />Just remember: &quot;Blessed are the cheesemakers&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-11-04 07:56:20
subject: <b>I am not religious and I don't like Christianity much</b>
body:
but I've always liked the person Jesus Christ, as he's described in the gospels. Too bad his teachings were twisted so much in the next 2000 years...<br /> <br /> Anyway, what i wanted to say is that I am shocked to see someone comparing Jesus Christ to the horrible person that Egwene is. It's just wrong. Ok, in this particular chapter the theory focuses on she's not that bad, but overall she has way too many flaws for such a comparison to be viable.<br /><br /> Besides, in case you've missed, we already have a Christ like figure in WoT and that's Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 11:14:19
subject: <b>I am evil personified!</b>
body:
I have come to devour your souls and use your entrails in a complex rendering of a famous portrait by Rapha&#235;l. I will feast on your children and they will likely give me heartburn. Damn kids. I play dungeons and dragons! Everytime I laugh evilly ( see smiley ) the lights dim and lightning arcs the sky.<br /><br />But I would still never, ever fall blindly in line behind Cannoli if there was any possible way I could disagree with him. That guy is just mean.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />On to other news, nettles, I'll go easy on you because if Cannoli ever catches wind of your post, you're likely to be flamed into oblivion. If I were you, I'd try reading what others have posted. Your arguments are noteworthy for not even pretending to comprehend what was just said. If I were you, I'd drop it and let <b>Sinth</b> continue arguing alone. He has been debating intelligently and respectfully, and with enough skill that I have no choice but to concede some points even though I disagree with his overall assessment. You should take example on him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 11:27:55
subject: <b>Very nice Theory-thanks.</b>
body:
Applied to &quot;Honey in the Tea&quot;, as you state most clearly, you have made a good case.<br /><br />In actuality, Jordan has based the White Tower on the Vatican structure.<br /><br />For the haters, who would make a better Pope-Elaida or Egwene?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 11:58:31
subject: <b>dag dog...this is a bit too much religion for me before noon</b>
body:
but i liked your theory, so i voted aye.  and i am an atheist raised catholic and am definitely not anti-christian, so i don't know where i fit into the various schemas dictated by those who posted above me.<br /><br />and it is so very modern to have a woman christ figure.  me likey...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 12:07:31
subject: <b>you got it all wrong</b>
body:
Egwene is not Christ, Rand is not Christ. Christ is God. None of the characters in WOT are powerful enough to be God.  THE END<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 12:59:28
subject: <b>I'm an agnost...</b>
body:
but this is a scandalous slandering of all that we may assume the figure Jezus stood for. <br />Egwene is portrayed as a Machiavellian adept looking out for her own good, while effectively saying 'Screw the world, as long as I get what I want' covering her own misdeeds in sly ways.<br />


created: 2005-11-04 14:54:25
subject: <b>The Breaker</b>
body:
I thought Jesus was the Son of God....God had a kid called Jesus. Two seperate entities? JC always refered to God as His Father... why do that if JC was God?<br /><br />But what do I know, I used to be agnostic, but now i'm not too sure... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-11-04 15:01:10
subject: <b>Reponse</b>
body:
Very good theory.  I think that the critics have been argued agaisnt well, and hence leaves your theory in very good standing.  I never thought about it in that regard, but yes I see it now.  Eggy, is a good character, I do not see why people hate her so much.<br /><br />Remember, her main reason for fighting her fight the way she is doing it is because she wants to avoid Aes Sedai deaths, because that would be something very difficult to cover up and forget.  Hence, she is attempting to win trhough conversion and considering the state of the WT, her strengh and &quot;nice&quot; way of leading is better than, Elaida's &quot;my way or I will send you to the Mistress of Novices for a strapping&quot; approach.<br /><br />And yes, Eggy, had a huge right to be angry with Beonin, i don't see how this can be any clearer, I mean in her POV she actaully says that she was their to circumvent them to begin with.<br /><br />TheVatican


created: 2005-11-04 15:16:36
subject: <b>JC is God?</b>
body:
JC was the Son of God. Or did I miss something major? In WoT, the Creator is God, not Rand, not anyone. No one argued that point. Rand is the champion of the Creator, taking on the Messianic role of the Saviour that JC was said to have been.


created: 2005-11-04 15:33:04
subject: <b>Stop calling him JC...</b>
body:
I keep thinking of Julius Caesar and the Ast&#233;rix comics <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 17:00:36
subject: <b>Beware when Cannoli and Fanatic Templar agree on something...</b>
body:
...it means we MUST be right. <br /><br />Okay.  We could do the back and forth religion question until aMoL is old news.  I have my understanding of WoT, the Bible and Jesus and it doesn't jibe with this.  That's all I'm going to say about that.<br /><br />Regarding the various defenses of Egwene.  A lot of them seem to be centered on the theme of &quot;Oh, it's Cannoli talking about Egwene again.  He has strongly held beliefs on this character, therefore we can disregard anything he has to say about her.&quot;  That is cr@p logic.  Regardless of what I have to say in the past about a topic only can apply to judgements of my character or motives.  It does NOT invalidate what I have to say about Egwene.  The truth repeated one hundred thousand times is still the truth, and falacies repeated as much do not become true.  The fact that it is me talking about Egwene might mean you can skip reading my post since you can anticipate whose side I will come down on, but it doesn't make what I have to say wrong.  If jofraz started bashing her, then I might say we can ignore it, because it is an imposter writing, but all my Egwene rants prove about me is that I am consistant.<br /><br />Second.  Elaida is a bad Amyrlin.  Bush is a bad president.  NEITHER &quot;FACT&quot; MAKES EGWENE OR AL GORE THE RIGHTFUL LEADER!!!! Neither does it make Al Gore or Egwene good or competant.  Gore lied about inventing the internet (and then lied about lying about inventing the internet), which has exactly NOTHING to do with Bush lying about WMD.  Does this make Bush right? No, but we can't say he is not the legal president because of it.  The fact is, the man won the election the same way every other president has been elected and took 30 out of 50 states.  He is the president of the USA, and not the first to not have the majority of popular votes.  In his second election he got the highest total of the popular vote since 1988!  WoT wasn't even published back then!<br /><br />By the same token, ACCORDING TO ROBERT JORDAN, Elaida won a legal election in the Hall of the Tower and her legal status as the Amyrlin Seat has been commented on by Aes Sedai in Salidar and nuetrals like Cadsuane.<br />Notice how there have not been any details of how Elaida &quot;usurped&quot; the Amyrlin Seat.  Egwene's election was by nine possibly legitimate Sitters and nine cranks selected by an &quot;Ajah&quot; representing no more than 1/3 of the sisters of that Ajah.  No one said the Sitters who stayed in Tar Valon are not sitters anymore or even that they did anything wrong, but women have been selected to &quot;replace&quot; them for no better reason than they disagreed with the people who hated Elaida and tried to start a violent uprising against her.  <br />If Elaida is so bad, the smart thing would have been to stay in the Tower and oppose her.  Instead the Tower was left populated solely by her supporters who were reluctant to jump on her when she made some early mistakes, and let her dig the Tower deeper and deeper into trouble.  The kidnapping of Rand and the assault on the Black Tower are as much on the heads of the women who abandoned the Tower to Elaida's faction as they are on the heads of the current leadership.  Egwene is so proud of the job she is doing turning the Tower against Elaida, but it would have been a lot easier if the Tower contained people who were already opposed to her, instead of having to start on Elaida's supporters.  Not to mention the fact that several times over the last two books, Sitters have said that they might have got rid of Elaida by now except for the rebels and the war.  They feel that ditching Elaida in the middle of a civil war would be too divisive, which is a strong reason why Bush was relected.  No one up until September 10, 2001 would have thought that he could possibly get MORE VOTES THAN ANY CANDIDATE IN US HISTORY in 2004, but the country was engaged in ongoing military action, and there was no candidate who could promise an end to war, so the opposition could not convince people to change Presidents in the middle of a war (that has never happened, by the way - the only time it came close was in 1968 when the president chose not run for re-election).<br />All the rebellion has done is keep Elaida in power longer.  Egwene's declaration of war was a political ploy to gain emergency powers, not unlike the evil emperor in Star Wars, and her arguments were based on the affronted egos of the Sitters.  She won the vote because the Shadow supported it, and because of the ignorance of the Sitters.  As KoD, &quot;At the Gardens&quot; shows, the Shadow FAVORS the rebellion continuing!  They aren't for Egwene or Elaida, just as long the rebels remain a going concern!  The fact that the Shadow wants to keep trying is a good indicator you are doing something VERY bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 21:27:57
subject: <b>*insert creative title here*</b>
body:
this is sorta to cannoli but also to egwene haters (u know who u are)<br /><br />Elaida led a coup and STILLED an AM!(not going to even attempt to spell it -or even say it correctly<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ) the number of people stilled by the white tower can be counted on one hand.She was voted in by her own supporters. who cares if the &quot;hall&quot; ( *cough* *cough* ) held the correct amt of sitters? im sure i could get 14 of my own friends to elect me too. she dissolved the blue ajah! PLUS i think sheriam (spelling?) says that the accusations against siuan were paper thin. paper thin and they stilled her!!! now isnt it strange that what siuan was doing was actually working? as opposed to elaida!. so elaida commited a hanus act and then failed. clap clap clap. meanwhile egwenes minding her own business and she has the role forced upon her by 9 sitters (who knows maybe some of the others were killed in the coup?). who cares if she was an accepted? this is a fantasy remember and she was raised to be a puppet who could sway rand.And rand supports and respects her as seen when he lets egwene bond the ashaman .so simply elaida has broken a lot more rules than compared to egwene to become AM<br /><br />people were placed in the tower to oppose her its jsut that the black ajah hunters found them.<br /> why did they leave ? hmmm i seem to remember elaida an co. killing people.i know there has been coups b4 but this seems to be the most bloody so this most likely the reason they left<br /> the black tower incident and the rand kiddnap has nothing to do with the rebels.(perhaps you mean the side line sisters?if so yes i agree but you really didnt destinguish) it has to do with elaida. pure and simple. there where no rebels and the rebels dont even know about it.<br />as for the whole forsaken thing well they seem to used elaidas coup really well<br /><br />this really doesnt have to do much with the whole post but i defend egwene anywhere i can and by god ill not have her &quot;crucified&quot; even if she is Christ<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">SELF APPOINTED #1 HATER OF TUON <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />I DONT USUALLY CONDONE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.. BUT.. I'VE GOT A SLEDGE HAMMER FOR MAT IF HE'S WILLING TO DO IT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 22:20:21
subject: <b>To Golden Craine</b>
body:
1- She may have gotten friends to vote for her, but remember that those friends had to be of the 21 Sitters of the Hall. That's a lot of high placed friends. Also, the Child Amyrlin only got raised because she would be a useful puppet, and Siuan because she was younger than the previous Amyrlins. Elaida seems to have been, at the time of the raising, the best candidate ( though later events prove otherwise ). That's also politics for you.<br /><br />2- Yes, she stilled an Amyrlin Seat. Deposed Amyrlins are <b>always</b> stilled. Siuan comments on that in <i>The Great Hunt</i>, claiming that the Tower could not afford to have a stilled Amyrlin become a rallying point for rebellion against the Tower. Incidentally, well, she did.<br /><br />3- Siuan's plans were not working any better than Elaida's. In fact, they were basically the same - get Rand into the Tower and pull him out like a talisman when Shai'tan came. She says this in <i>The Great Hunt</i>. The box was <b>not</b> part of Elaida's plan, but Galina's.<br /><br />4- The coup may have been bloodier than others ( we can't know ) but remember one thing - Elaida didn't start the killing. Warders and rebel Aes Sedai tried to break Siuan out. <i>They</i> are responsible for the slaughter.<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, I agree that the Child Amyrlin is a much better Amyrlin Seat than Elaida. But she does not have a legal right to claim the position, not is her cause just. She is the one leading an insurrection, she is the one keeping the Tower broken. And that, I believe, is what Cannoli is trying to point out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 23:08:53
subject: <b>bah!</b>
body:
theyre all trying to tie him so the motives are the same but the ways they go about it are vastly different. and siuan was having more luck with rand (not much but you know...)<br />  they started fighting back cos the crimes against siuan were paper thin. who can blame them?<br />  so we should hate egwene because shes trying to usurp a usurper? remember what elaida had done was againsts laws also. we shouldnt just look down on egwene for going after &quot;a lawful amerlyn&quot; when Elaida broke every damn other law and custom to become the so-called &quot;lawful AM&quot;<br />  also not all the people who raised elaida were the original sitters (btw arnt there only 14 and the keeper and am? if not ive been drastically mistaken :S )<br />the tower breaking can be laid at the pattern weaving around rand; all leaders are ppl he knows thats why egwene is one (also shes a main character <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br />but mostly its elaidas fault<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">SELF APPOINTED #1 HATER OF TUON <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />I DONT USUALLY CONDONE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.. BUT.. I'VE GOT A SLEDGE HAMMER FOR MAT IF HE'S WILLING TO DO IT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 23:50:32
subject: <b>There are 21 Sitters, 3 per Ajah</b>
body:
And Elaida was lawfully raised Amyrlin. Barely, but in the eyes of the law, she's still the rightful Amyrlin Seat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 00:09:32
subject: <b>whoops</b>
body:
yeah, looking back on most of my rant, i wrote way too much and was way too wordy. but i cant help but ask mickeydee where i said cannoli wasnt allowed to quote scripture in his counters to propositions? and where did i say they had to be from the same chapter or gospel? if i said anything that was interpreted that way, i didnt mean it to be. i guess it could have stemmed from my disagreement about what one particular scripture meant, but that was all it was: a different interpretation of a scripture.<br /><br />once again, looking back at what my mind was coming up with at 2:30 in the morning, i cant say much my reasoning was flawless, but a lot of the argument still stands.<br /><br />im also somewhat flattered. it appears that someone actually READ all that crap i wrote. i didnt think anyone had enough free time that they would be willing to waste a half hour listening to me rant.


created: 2005-11-05 00:50:26
subject: <b>continuing...</b>
body:
moving on, i would also like to point out that so far there has not been a specific argument to any specific point i made...since apparently i have people thinking i am totally wrong, i would like to know about exactly what. and i would like to say to fanatic-templar that cannoli, who he was so sure would &quot;flame me into oblivion&quot; (i believe that it the phrasing he used), has yet to make any response so my post. of course, that could easily be because he didnt bother to read the ravings of a madman, but its something.<br /><br />and now that my blood has cooled down a little (biblical arguments get me kinda heated), maybe i can argue like a sensible person now.<br /><br />i completely agree with golden craine. hes a much better arguer than i am, too. heres an analogy for the whole &quot;its easy to get elected when your friends are the ones voting&quot; thing. george bush is a republican. congress has a majority of republicans. therefore, just about any legislature that comes from the republican party is almost gauranteed to pass. yeah, in know, its not the best analogy, but its kind of a parallel and its something to think about.


created: 2005-11-05 08:38:03
subject: <b>more like a Pope</b>
body:
or as Cannoli said, anti-pope<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 09:12:19
subject: <b>Not a bad theory</b>
body:
Though I agree that lots of the points are REAL stretches, and there are a couple of assumptions (like Egwene being the rightful Amyrlin without any good reason) that you just have to go along with, or not (like Cannoli).<br /><br />I think Elaida would be a better pope, because she seems to avoid the sex thing, but they'd both be awful.<br /><br />I have to vote against this theory, because almost all of the ones that work were destined to work, with no effort, just because the good guys will have persuasive words when they speak the truth, etc., and the ones that I think are real stretches were the ones that could have really sold it.<br /><br />side note:  Gore didn't lie about the inventing the internet thing, it's a distortion that was one of the most successful republican smears on him in the 2000 campaign.  here's snopes.com's take on it: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp<br /><br />It's just one of those things that gets repeated until everyone believes it, like the ACLU wanting to ban crosses from federal property (in my latest chain email).


created: 2005-11-05 10:46:25
subject: <b>A smattering of replies</b>
body:
<b>Feeble Man wrote:<br />I'm not saying that your theory doesnt have valid points. It does. I'm saying that anyone that knows the bible that well would seem to me the kind of person that is superstitious about witchcraft and would avoid WoT like the anti-christ.</b><br /><br />Actually, your statement amounts to a superstition some people hold about Christians. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  There isn't anything inherently strange about a Christian enjoying a good fantasy book.  In fact, J.R.R. Tolkien, arguably the father of modern fantasy, was a fervent Christian.  He was also a good friend of C.S. Lewis, one of the most famous modern Christian apologists, who himself wrote the much-loved Chronicles of Narnia fantasy series.<br /><br /><br /><b>Zeratul wrote:<br />Anyway, what i wanted to say is that I am shocked to see someone comparing Jesus Christ to the horrible person that Egwene is. It's just wrong. Ok, in this particular chapter the theory focuses on she's not that bad, but overall she has way too many flaws for such a comparison to be viable.<br /><br />Besides, in case you've missed, we already have a Christ like figure in WoT and that's Rand.</b><br /><br />To your second point, someone else brought up that Jordan mixes up his mythology and even splits some references up among multiple people.  For example, King Arthur is represented both by Artur Hawking and Rand at times.  So it's there's nothing contradictory about postulating that Rand and Egwene could both represent Christ at different times or in different ways.<br /><br />To your first, I don't think it's safe to assume that just because a minority of people happen to think Egwene is a horrible person, that automatically disqualifies the analogy.  I could list a hundred ways Rand is more like Antichrist than Christ in character, but it would be silly and not prove anything about whether he symbolizes Christ in ways.<br /><br /><br /><b>smallcatharine  wrote:<br />but this is a scandalous slandering of all that we may assume the figure Jezus stood for. <br />Egwene is portrayed as a Machiavellian adept looking out for her own good, while effectively saying 'Screw the world, as long as I get what I want' covering her own misdeeds in sly ways.</b><br /><br />I'm sorry, I just don't see this at all.  You might see Egwene as Machiavellian, but to say that she's <i>portrayed</i> as such is contrary to the face value of the story.  The plainest reading of the text is that Egwene is a young woman with a whole heck of a lot of responsibility unexpectedly thrust onto her small shoulders.  And she's doing the best job she knows how to do to try to fill the role that was given her.  Remember, she never asked to be Amyrlin; the thought never crossed her mind.  She was summoned to Salidar and put into that position by sisters who sought to use her as a puppet for their own ends.<br /><br /><br /><b>Vind alOo wrote:<br />I thought Jesus was the Son of God....God had a kid called Jesus. Two seperate entities? JC always refered to God as His Father... why do that if JC was God?</b><br /><br />Very interesting question here and gets into the very core of Christian theology.  I don't have space to elaborate, but I'll try to summarize for you what Christians believe: God is one entity but three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  The three persons are eternal and co-equal.  That is, there was never a time when God the Father was alone without God the Son.  They have different roles, and in those roles the Father leads and the Son follows.<br /><br />This is interesting because it gives teeth to the statement &quot;God is love.&quot;  Love can't exist without there both a lover and a beloved.  The fact that the eternal God is in three persons means that the love shared between those three persons is eternal; that love itself is eternal.<br /><br /><b>Cannoli wrote:<br />If Elaida is so bad, the smart thing would have been to stay in the Tower and oppose her.</b><br /><br />Perhaps, but it would have also been deceitful and underhanded.  With a rebellion, those who oppose her are being honest and forthright about their opposition.<br /><br /><b>Cannoli wrote:<br />Egwene's declaration of war was a political ploy to gain emergency powers, not unlike the evil emperor in Star Wars, and her arguments were based on the affronted egos of the Sitters.</b><br /><br />Another way to look at the same situation is that the sisters tried to use her as a puppet Amyrlin.  But the Tower never does well when ruled by the Hall, it needs an Amrylin to really guide the reins.  In order to be the true Amyrlin that the rebellion needed, Egwene had to find a way to assert herself.  You might call the war declaration a political ploy, and in a sense it was, but the truth of the matter is that declaration or no, the rebellion really <i>is</i> at war with Elaida, so making the declaration was a very honest thing to do.<br />


created: 2005-11-05 16:31:39
subject: <b>Nettles</b>
body:
<b>and i would like to say to fanatic-templar that cannoli, who he was so sure would &quot;flame me into oblivion&quot; (i believe that it the phrasing he used), has yet to make any response so my post.</b><br /><br />Hey, I'm as surprised as you are <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />But if you <i>insist</i> ( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) on someone arguing with you, I'll point out some things from your post.<br /><br /><b>hold on a sec--why did she refuse a rescue? wasnt it because it would definitely kill people??!! and, note that Christ also said &quot;i came not to bring peace, but a sword&quot; (matt. 10:34) Christ wasnt anti-conflict either. he just meant going around killing people is a sure ticket to death and hell. also, i seem to recall egwene saying repeatedly that there would be no invasion, no fighting between the two forces if she could possibly settle it peacefully.</b><br /><br />That's all nice and well for Aes Sedai, indeed, we all know that Aes Sedai blood is sacred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> but it leaves the people living in Tar Valon in what position? By blocking the harbours and besieging the city, the Child Amyrlin is submitting them to a famine. Remember that because of Shai'tan, foodstuffs are going bad at incredible rates. The two form a certain recipe for the city dying out of hunger.<br /><br /><b>and alviarin didnt hit egwene when she was weakened? remember, alviarin is going to silviana too. she knows exactly how much pain egwene is going through every day. and ill have to check, but i dont recall egwene every saying anything akin to &quot;i like it here.&quot; and i could go off on a tangent about cannoli's &quot;satan not knowing who or what Christ was&quot; crap and use that to further prove his unfitness to have his opinion recognized, but ill spare the readers.</b><br /><br />Actually, Alviarin really attacked when she was at her weakest, not inversely. Think about it. She no longer has any power, authority or respect. She gets beaten as often as the girl, and with less success. She is in no offer to realistically offer her anything, and the Child already distrusts her - has distrusted her since Rand recieved Alviarin's letter in <i>The Fires of Heaven</i>.<br /><br /><b>all i have to say about this is that i remember the word &quot;light!&quot; coming out of egwene's mouth on a number of occasions. i also remember her praying to the light. if that isnt acknowlegement of a superior authority, i dont know what is.&lt;/v&gt;<br /><br />The Light seems more of a superstition, really. There is no indication that the Light is anything sentient. And the Creator doesn't interfere. This is definately not acknowledgement of a superior authority. It's only a word used to ward off evil, pain or unpleasantness, like the Seanchan's crescent moon gesture. She does not submit to the Light's authority, because if it exists, the Light has never asked for anything.<br /><br />&lt;b&gt;yeah, the author went a tad overboard on this one, but the point is still valid. bennae was clearly mulling over what egwene said, and seemed to agree somewhat. stepaneos didnt exactly marvel at her words, but he seemed enlightened none the less.</b><br /><br />Anyone can make a good point. It doesn't mean they're the representation of a divinity.<br /><br /><b>yeah, theyve been through the training, but when they were novices everything in the tower stayed in the same place, there were no ghosts, and saidar wasnt failing. and egwene did tell the novices what they needed to do. they couldnt do anything to change the situation, so she told them how to get through it. as for the &quot;egwene is endangering them by her actions. she is not promising them any reward or justice either&quot; comment, im not sure how far up his posterior he had to reach to pull that one out, and the only thing i can think of to say is: what the crap?</b><br /><br />I don't really understand what you're trying to say, but point was that the Tower Aes Sedai aren't being hypocritical in their treatment of novices.<br /><br /><b>once again, what the crap? when did he say she was suffering for the novices? and she is not claiming to be necessarily superior to them. on a higher level, yes, but she has no &quot;im better than you&quot; attitude.</b><br /><br />This was a reply to Sinth's proposed argument that the Child Amyrlin was showing self-sacrifice. Which she obviously isn't, as I show in my first anwer to this: <i>This is only the basic modicum of decency. Having other people suffer for your arrogance would be unforgivable. It is not &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; in any way. She is not sacrificing herself to avoid harm to others, she is stopping others from taking harm for her!</i><br /><br /><b>i think im going to need to have it explained to me just exactly how egwene is defying legitimately elected authority by telling the novices to obey the aes sedai.</b><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> She is defying legitimate authority by proclaiming herself to be the Amyrlin Seat. It is equivalent to me going to the Vatican, poking the Pope and saying &quot;I am the one and only true God. On your knees.&quot; Plus the whole raising an army against him.<br /><br /><b>nicola respects her now. thats why shes doing better. notice how she tries to imitate egwene early on and gets slapped down hard. and stays down. that hasnt happened before. now she obeying a novice. i doubt silviana taught her that</b><br /><br />She is slapped down by <i>Silviana</i>. We were discussing the Child Amyrlin's influence, not the Mistress of Novices'.<br /><br /><b>many of them cannot be bothered with punishing her? you could probably count on one hand the nuber of aes sedai that are currently doing something significant enough to take the time to tell egwene to go to the mistress of novices. and many of the aes sedai do tell her to. in fact, just about every aes sedai weve seen egwene come into contact with has sent her to silviana.</b><br /><br />This argument is self-defeating. The purpose is that <b>'Even her enemies find no fault in her. Egwene is a model novice, she performs her chores, follows the rules, does not complain, sets a good example for the other novices. In fact, the single thing she gets in trouble for is being the Amyrlin Seat. This, I believe, is the source of the resignation in Silviana's voice [p.533]. And so with Christ, &quot;Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, 'Crucify Him, crucify Him!' Pilate said to them, 'You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.' The Jews answered him, &quot;We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.' </b> If &quot;just about every Aes Sedai&quot; has sent her to Silviana, than that just points out that &quot;just about every Aes Sedai&quot; finds fault in her.<br /><br />I spared you the other arguments, when you either admitted fallacies in Sinth's theory or contained more theological material than I am knowledgeable about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 22:16:34
subject: <b>a few misunderstandings with fanatic-templar</b>
body:
there were apparently a few miscommunications...but first ill try to argue the points that came through right.<br /><br />&quot;That's all nice and well for Aes Sedai, indeed, we all know that Aes Sedai blood is sacred  but it leaves the people living in Tar Valon in what position? By blocking the harbours and besieging the city, the Child Amyrlin is submitting them to a famine. Remember that because of Shai'tan, foodstuffs are going bad at incredible rates. The two form a certain recipe for the city dying out of hunger.&quot;<br />yes, i know she is planning on killing people and even trying to with her siege and blocking the harbors and all, but she would not have refused a rescue if there was a way to do it that would garuantee no casualties. she knows she has to kill people, but doesnt want to kill people in her rescue when she can probably undermine elaida from within.<br />and dont name the dark one, you fool! (sorry, couldnt resist)<br /><br />&quot;Actually, Alviarin really attacked when she was at her weakest, not inversely. Think about it. She no longer has any power, authority or respect. She gets beaten as often as the girl, and with less success. She is in no offer to realistically offer her anything, and the Child already distrusts her - has distrusted her since Rand recieved Alviarin's letter in The Fires of Heaven.&quot;<br />yes, i am well aware of that and agree that alviarin is weak and feeble at this point. but she i still ATTEMPTING to hit egwene when she is down. she cant be aware that the beatings have no effect on egwene--after all, she must hear her screams while she is waiting her turn--and she most likely believes she can get the weakened egwene to submit to whatever she offers.<br /><br />&quot;The Light seems more of a superstition, really. There is no indication that the Light is anything sentient. And the Creator doesn't interfere. This is definately not acknowledgement of a superior authority. It's only a word used to ward off evil, pain or unpleasantness, like the Seanchan's crescent moon gesture. She does not submit to the Light's authority, because if it exists, the Light has never asked for anything.&quot;<br />im not saying the light is god. the characters pray to the light quite often, and praying to something generally means that the prayee is superior to the prayer.<br /><br />&quot;Anyone can make a good point. It doesn't mean they're the representation of a divinity.&quot;<br />i already said i dont completely agree with the author on this one. but the people she comes into contact with are somewhat surprised at the things she says, and many of them get benefit out of it.<br /><br />&quot;I don't really understand what you're trying to say, but point was that the Tower Aes Sedai aren't being hypocritical in their treatment of novices.&quot;<br />the argument had nothing to do with the aes sedai being hypocritical (and i agree that they arent being hypocritical). the quote from matt. 23 used in the theory used the word &quot;hypocrites&quot; in it, and i believe cannoli took that as an accusation of the aes sedai. all that sinth was saying was that the tower was like whitewashed tombs etc.<br /><br />&quot;This was a reply to Sinth's proposed argument that the Child Amyrlin was showing self-sacrifice. Which she obviously isn't, as I show in my first anwer to this: This is only the basic modicum of decency. Having other people suffer for your arrogance would be unforgivable. It is not &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; in any way. She is not sacrificing herself to avoid harm to others, she is stopping others from taking harm for her!&quot;<br />i agree with that completely. i didnt remember sinths proposal. probably should have read that better...the beginning of the quote from the theory that cannoli was disputing only said that egwene didnt want the novices to suffer. apparently i didnt continue reading after that. i dont think the &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; line is valid. (if anyone wants to go back and find what im talking about in the theory, youll see what i mean)<br /><br />&quot;She is defying legitimate authority by proclaiming herself to be the Amyrlin Seat. It is equivalent to me going to the Vatican, poking the Pope and saying &quot;I am the one and only true God. On your knees.&quot; Plus the whole raising an army against him.&quot;<br />no dispute with that. little misunderstanding in exactly what cannoli was arguing there. it sounded like he found defiance of authority in egwenes telling the novices to obey the aes sedai. but i get it now. sorry bout that one.<br />i would also like to make a revision to fanatic-templars analogy here. its more like going to the vatican and telling the pope &quot;im the one and only pope. on your knees.&quot;(reason being that egwene and elaidas positions are hypothetically equal ) but its a good analogy.<br /><br />&quot;[nicola] is slapped down by Silviana. We were discussing the Child Amyrlin's influence, not the Mistress of Novices'.&quot;<br />i misremembered a little on that...my bad.<br /><br />&quot;This argument is self-defeating. The purpose is that 'Even her enemies find no fault in her. Egwene is a model novice, she performs her chores, follows the rules, does not complain, sets a good example for the other novices. In fact, the single thing she gets in trouble for is being the Amyrlin Seat. This, I believe, is the source of the resignation in Silviana's voice [p.533]. And so with Christ, &quot;Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, 'Crucify Him, crucify Him!' Pilate said to them, 'You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.' The Jews answered him, &quot;We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.' If &quot;just about every Aes Sedai&quot; has sent her to Silviana, than that just points out that &quot;just about every Aes Sedai&quot; finds fault in her.&quot;<br />but the vast majority of her appointments with silviana are for claiming to be amyrlin or not showing proper respect. so, in effect, the only fault they find in her is being amyrlin.<br /><br />ok, im finally done. for now.


created: 2005-11-05 22:21:37
subject: <b>Fanatic-Templar</b>
body:
<b>[Alviarin] is in no position to realistically offer [Egwene] anything, and the Child already distrusts her - has distrusted her since Rand recieved Alviarin's letter in The Fires of Heaven.</b><br /><br />While I agree with your facts, I don't see how the implication could be a counter to the theory.  The father of lies was in no position to realistically offer Christ anything, and Jesus already distrusted Satan - had distrusted him since he fell from glory and became the tempter of Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden.<br /><br /><b>point was that the Tower Aes Sedai aren't being hypocritical in their treatment of novices.</b><br /><br />My point wasn't that the Tower Aes Sedai were being hypocritical in their treatment of novices.  My point was that Aes Sedai present an outward image of strength, power, knowledge, wisdom, and benevolence.  The truth is, however, that the Tower is currently rife with factions, suspicion, hatred, and evil.  In that way, the Tower is much like the whitewashed tombs Jesus spoke of.<br /><br /><b>This was a reply to Sinth's proposed argument that the Child Amyrlin was showing self-sacrifice. Which she obviously isn't, as I show in my first anwer to this: This is only the basic modicum of decency. Having other people suffer for your arrogance would be unforgivable. It is not &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; in any way. She is not sacrificing herself to avoid harm to others, she is stopping others from taking harm for her!</b><br /><br />Um, Egwene is helping the novices with lessons and personal problems, out of the goodness of her heart.  In fact, the text makes it quite clear that she risks additional punishments to do this.  So the risk is that both Egwene and the novices involved will be punished for something that the novices primarily benefit from.  And yet Egwene's main concern is not for her own safety, but that of the novices.  Read from the middle of p.517 to bottom.<br /><br /><b>She is slapped down by Silviana. We were discussing the Child Amyrlin's influence, not the Mistress of Novices'.</b><br /><br />I've already answered this one.  Silviana did indeed slap down Nicola's outright rebellion which Nicola recently did in imitation of Egwene.  However, there's a deeper level you're missing.  Nicola has been a troublesome novice from the very beginning, despite the best efforts of Egwene, Sheriam, and surely others.  Silviana's strap might have affected her outward behavior around the sisters, but it is respect and admiration for Egwene that changes her heart.  This is made crystal clear on the top half p.518, part of which I've already quoted twice now.  If you want to persist in your objection, please explain how the text on p.518 does not in fact support my claim of Egwene's example.<br /><br /><b>If &quot;just about every Aes Sedai&quot; has sent her to Silviana, than that just points out that &quot;just about every Aes Sedai&quot; finds fault in her.</b><br /><br />Yes, a bad original choice of wording on my part, which I've clarified.  It isn't that the Aes Sedai have found no fault in her; it's that the only &quot;fault&quot; they've found in her is her claiming to be Amyrlin, or doing the things an Amyrlin would do (not using the &quot;Sedai&quot; honorific, not curtseying, etc).  Just the same, the only &quot;fault&quot; Christ's enemies ever found in Him was His claming to be the Son of God, and doing the things the Son of God would do (telling people their sins were forgiven, performing miracles on the Sabbath, etc).<br />


created: 2005-11-06 12:41:30
subject:
<b>I am enjoying this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<b>yes, i know she is planning on killing people and even trying to with her siege and blocking the harbors and all, but she would not have refused a rescue if there was a way to do it that would garuantee no casualties. she knows she has to kill people, but doesnt want to kill people in her rescue when she can probably undermine elaida from within.<br />and dont name the dark one, you fool! (sorry, couldnt resist)</b><br /><br />True. What I meant that when people laud the Child Amyrlin for going through the war without killing people, they simply omit that she is simply sacrificing innocent bystanders to avoid hurting those she is making war against.<br /><br /><b>yes, i am well aware of that and agree that alviarin is weak and feeble at this point. but she i still ATTEMPTING to hit egwene when she is down. she cant be aware that the beatings have no effect on egwene--after all, she must hear her screams while she is waiting her turn--and she most likely believes she can get the weakened egwene to submit to whatever she offers.</b><br /><br /><b>While I agree with your facts, I don't see how the implication could be a counter to the theory. The father of lies was in no position to realistically offer Christ anything, and Jesus already distrusted Satan - had distrusted him since he fell from glory and became the tempter of Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden.</b><br /><br />Ah, I see where you're going. Well, I suppose it's true, though one could argue that it really doesn't mean much, given Alviarin's circumstances.<br /><br /><b>the argument had nothing to do with the aes sedai being hypocritical (and i agree that they arent being hypocritical). the quote from matt. 23 used in the theory used the word &quot;hypocrites&quot; in it, and i believe cannoli took that as an accusation of the aes sedai. all that sinth was saying was that the tower was like whitewashed tombs etc.</b><br /><br /><b>My point wasn't that the Tower Aes Sedai were being hypocritical in their treatment of novices. My point was that Aes Sedai present an outward image of strength, power, knowledge, wisdom, and benevolence. The truth is, however, that the Tower is currently rife with factions, suspicion, hatred, and evil. In that way, the Tower is much like the whitewashed tombs Jesus spoke of.</b><br /><br />My mistake. Yes, you speak truth.<br /><br /><b>i agree with that completely. i didnt remember sinths proposal. probably should have read that better...the beginning of the quote from the theory that cannoli was disputing only said that egwene didnt want the novices to suffer. apparently i didnt continue reading after that. i dont think the &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; line is valid. (if anyone wants to go back and find what im talking about in the theory, youll see what i mean)</b><br /><br /><b>Um, Egwene is helping the novices with lessons and personal problems, out of the goodness of her heart. In fact, the text makes it quite clear that she risks additional punishments to do this. So the risk is that both Egwene and the novices involved will be punished for something that the novices primarily benefit from. And yet Egwene's main concern is not for her own safety, but that of the novices. Read from the middle of p.517 to bottom.</b><br /><br />The implications of &quot;sacrifice&quot; hold that the person will lose something of value in order to achieve some greater goal. The Child Amyrlin gets beaten so often that additionnal punishment won't bother her at all. She is also responsible for the novices' coming to her for aid. It is an after effect of her posing as Amyrlin Seat that draws them, and as such it is her duty to protect them. If she wants to pose as their Mother, she could not realistically allow for them to be beaten for believing her. Since she herself sacrifices next to nothing to avoid a situation which would only result in her being shamed, the term &quot;self-sacrifice&quot; is erroneous.<br /><br /><b>i misremembered a little on that...my bad.</b><br /><br /><b>I've already answered this one. Silviana did indeed slap down Nicola's outright rebellion which Nicola recently did in imitation of Egwene. However, there's a deeper level you're missing. Nicola has been a troublesome novice from the very beginning, despite the best efforts of Egwene, Sheriam, and surely others. Silviana's strap might have affected her outward behavior around the sisters, but it is respect and admiration for Egwene that changes her heart. This is made crystal clear on the top half p.518, part of which I've already quoted twice now. If you want to persist in your objection, please explain how the text on p.518 does not in fact support my claim of Egwene's example.</b><br /><br />You are only making assumptions. Because the Child Amyrlin, in her pride, assumes that she is responsible for Nicola's change does not make it true. The page you mention only shows that Nicola has respect for the Mother's opinion. But that respect must come <i>after</i> her change, otherwise she simply would not have listened to her. Her attitude was corrected by Silviana, after which she was capable of admitting the sagacity of the Child Amyrlin's advice. Not the other way 'round.<br /><br /><b>but the vast majority of her appointments with silviana are for claiming to be amyrlin or not showing proper respect. so, in effect, the only fault they find in her is being amyrlin.</b><br /><br /><b>Yes, a bad original choice of wording on my part, which I've clarified. It isn't that the Aes Sedai have found no fault in her; it's that the only &quot;fault&quot; they've found in her is her claiming to be Amyrlin, or doing the things an Amyrlin would do (not using the &quot;Sedai&quot; honorific, not curtseying, etc). Just the same, the only &quot;fault&quot; Christ's enemies ever found in Him was His claming to be the Son of God, and doing the things the Son of God would do (telling people their sins were forgiven, performing miracles on the Sabbath, etc).</b><br /><br />Ah, I see. Well if you're talking strictly about that chapter, and ignoring people like Cannoli who are not in the books, this might hold a certain level of accuracy.<br /><br />On a side-note, well done in translating all my references to the Child Amyrlin. Makes reading for other so much clearer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 12:50:01
subject: <b>The struggle sort of parallels...</b>
body:
The break in the Catholic Church, when there were 2 popes. <br /><br />Granted, the Pope in Rome won (I would assume Elaida was the Roman Pope) but still.<br /><br />My memory is shaky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Master of the Revels</i><br /><br /><b>If I can't dance, then I don't want any part of your revolution</b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 13:15:34
subject: <b>to Cannoli and FT on Egwene's validity as Amyrlin</b>
body:
Basically, I will say that the Blue ajah (with help from members of all the other ajah's except Red, rebelled against legal but unconscionalbly immoral actions by Elaida and her 'circle'. Elaida and friends were the ones who initiated the killing by murdering Siuan's warder. They were the ones who declared the Blue ajah &quot;illegal&quot;. It was by Elaida's actions that sisters were killed. Legal? Yes. Right? No. <br />I'm not a Christian so I cannot comment on the scripture quotes the author uses, and it is not the focus of this post anyway. I'll instead, quote from one of my favorite periods of western history, the American Revolution. <br />&quot;When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.&quot; American Declaration of Independence<br />Basically what I hear Cannoli (and to a lesser extent FT) saying is that because Elaida was the legally elected Amyrlin that there can be no reason for rebellion. Forget that Elaida has all but promised stilling (a death sentence by all that Elaida knows) Sheriman and the other Blue leaders. Forget that she banished the Blue ajah. Forget that she committed murder. She's legally elected, so suck it up and forget about it. <br />Well, gentlemen, I guess I should be a British subject then. <br />The American Revolution was illegal. The French Revolution was illegal. I'd be willing to bet that some of what Jesus the Christ did was illegal. I know for a fact that some of what Lao Tsu did was illegal. My point is that when faced with a greater evil, (and even FT with all his anti Egwene feelings agrees that she would be a better Amyrlin than Elaida) it becomes necessary to commit illegal acts to rectify the situation. All of human history is filled with examples of this. Cannoli's argument that Egwene cannot be Amyrlin because what the rebel AS did was illegal is about as valid as saying that George Washington cannot be the first president of the United States because the American Revolution was illegal. <br />And to say that Egwene is as bad as Elaida is pure bull organic. I'll leave you with this proveable statement.<br />Elaida is willing to kill to get her way. And she has done so<br />Egwene is willing to die to rectify the damage Elaida has done.<br />NaCl(climbs back down off the soap box )H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 14:15:14
subject: <b>To NaClH2O...</b>
body:
I agree with you. Always have. <br /><br /><b>Oh, and by the way, I agree that the Child Amyrlin is a much better Amyrlin Seat than Elaida. But she does not have a legal right to claim the position, not is her cause just. She is the one leading an insurrection, she is the one keeping the Tower broken. And that, I believe, is what Cannoli is trying to point out.</b><br /><br />My only point in defending the validity of Elaida's position is to point out that the Child Amyrlin does not have and rightful claim to the title of Amyrlin Seat. Whatever happens, the rebellion will always be that - a rebellion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 15:44:03
subject: <b>wow...</b>
body:
this is creepy. it seems all my conflicts with fanatic-tamplar are resolved! i never expected THAT!<br /><br />and i finally remembered: nice theory, sinth. i disagree in a couple of places, but on the whole i like it.


created: 2005-11-06 23:42:31
subject: <b>Digging a hole</b>
body:
And you're about to bury yourself in it.  I think you're taking it too far.  I love thinking about stuff like that, but I don't think Robert Jordan would do it.  Plus, there is one Christ figure.  You may consider Egwene a savior, a hero, but the role of Christ figure belongs solely to Rand.  She's just an apostle.  Paul or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Madness in great ones must not unwatched go.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-07 07:25:17
subject: <b>I'm so glad I let this theory through...</b>
body:
the discussion/arguements have made for great reading. Sinth thanks for submitting it and Cannoli and others thanks for taking the time to try an rip it apart. When I get to see what's happened above I know I've let through a &quot;Theory&quot; worth reading.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-07 16:28:33
subject: <b>Uhh</b>
body:
******Some of your points, such as Christ being able to call down legions of Angels to rescue Him, don't fit with Egwene because at the end of the day she doesn't have Christ's power to back her up.*******<br /><br />Actually she could just have sisters come gateway in and gateway her out. And she is the strongest channeler in the tower far stronger than most aes sedai. Hinting at Christ's power. <br /> I don't think RJ was meaning us to come up with this idea, but he probably did want to show how tough egwene was and how she can kick majot tushy.


created: 2005-11-07 20:17:18
subject: <b>My take...</b>
body:
... when I first read this chapter was that it seemed sort of Harry Potter-ish.  This chapter also made clear to me that Egwene was being influenced toward evil.  She seems a much better person in this chapter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 00:06:51
subject: <b>to rose sedai</b>
body:
for the love of all things holy, READ THE BLACKBOARD!! sinth has said more than once that he is not saying egwene al'bloody vere is freaking Christ!! he saw some parallels in that one specific chapter and nowhere else. all he was saying was that egwene is the &quot;Christ-figure&quot; inside the bounds of that chapter. never once did he say that she is the saviour of the world. and yet, this same problem has come up at least three times that i can remember. come on, cant we do a little better than this?


created: 2005-11-08 00:10:34
subject: <b>Ugh</b>
body:
This theory and following blackboard posts just proves how much of a huge waste of time religion, ESPECIALLY Christinanity, is. <br /><br />And don't compare Jesus to Egwene. Jesus was a fake and just wanted attention. he wanted to get back at the Jews for not wanting him around. he never really accomplished anything. The bible may say he did, but where's the proof.<br /><br />Also, Egwene is no fake. She is the real deal and gets stuff done. Enough said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 01:10:45
subject: <b>Regarding rebellions</b>
body:
Okay, EGWENE IS NOT WASHINGTON!  People have often tried to appeal to this history teacher's patriotism by comparing her to the CSA or the American Revolution, but in those, Washington and Jefferson Davis were rejecting an authority, AND FORMING A NEW COUNTRY!  Washington never claimed any sovereignty over Great Britain or Ireland or any state that did not declare itself independant, and Davis never claimed authority over any state that did not seceed from the USA.  Egwene claims authority over the Red Ajah (despite the fact that her whole claim is based on the idea that you don't have to acknowledge an Amyrlin you don't want).<br /><br />I do not say Elaida is a good Amyrlin or a good person.  And regarding her actions that justify the rebellion, Jordan has stated that the &quot;murder&quot; of Siuan's warder happened when he came charging into an Aes Sedai matter.  To quote appropriate policy &quot;...sisters do <i>not</i> ask their Warders to face other sisters.&quot;  If that is so bad, how about nonChrist blackmailing sisters based on their dealings with their own Warders?  Or the threat that the Hall would pass their Warders' bonds to other women, with no one considering what the Warders might think of it.  Defending yourself from a Warder is not the same as sentencing one to a lifetime commitment for something his Aes Sedai did.  And Elaida did not outlaw the Blues until long after they spread slander and lies regarding her own Ajah's actions.  She initially offered a complete amnesty - remember how Nynaeve and Elayne found out about the rebellion?  They intercepted a message through the Yellow Ajah's spy network: &quot;All loyal sisters are to return to the Tower.  All is forgiven.&quot;<br />Anyway, regardless of whatever horrible things Elaida might have done, the Sitters who remained in Tar Valon are accused of no crimes, and thus there is no reason for them to be replaced.  Heck, Salidar never held more than one third of the sisters!  Where do they get off claiming to speak for the other two thirds in their election of a Hall.  At best, the only Sitters from Salidar who can claim legitimacy are the six who were already Sitters in Tar Valon and the three Blues.  That is nine Sitters, but to elect an Amyrlin you need eleven.   The Sitters who remained in the Tower were elected when the Tower was united, by their entire Ajah.  Where does the fragment of each Ajah in Salidar get off unilaterally declaring the lawfully elected Sitters invalid and choosing new ones when 2/3 of their members are not even present?<br />The fact is, Salidar's whole claim is based on the fantasy that Elaida is not the real Amyrlin, when in fact, ACCORDING TO JORDAN, SHE WAS LEGALLY AND LEGITMATELY ELECTED!  This is a fact.  You can twist the various quotes of Tower Law anyway you like.  The hard truth is, Elaida IS the Amyrlin Seat, and there is no basis to support the idea that the nonChrist has any sort of legal claim.  <br />It isn't even a <i>good</i> idea.  The nonChrist, with her typical convenient erasure of prior experiences, is now all smug over the good work she is doing with her undermining the Tower from within and her endurance of spankings (you know, my parents stopped spanking me long before I turned 18, long before I turned 10, as a matter of fact, because it is not an effective punishment for grownups!  ), while completely ignoring that if she had surrendered to Elaida as soon as they put her in charge of this farce, the Tower WOULD have been reunited by now.<br />The fact is, the only reason Elaida is still in charge is that not even Aes Sedai want to unseat an Amyrlin in the middle of a war (if we like quoting American History so much, how about the fact that NO US President has EVER lost a re-election during a war?  The Brits tried that with Chamberlain and got their butts handed to them; their &quot;victory&quot; is due to the fact that their opponents didn't have a navy to chase them far enough with and two the two real superpowers were nice to them at the victory party).  It has been commented on more than once in KoD and CoT that the Tower was fed up with Elaida and would just as soon see her gone, but not with the rebels and their army acting serious (almost all the nonChrist's doing).<br />Had the rebels stayed in the Tower, they could have done a far better job at stirring up a mutiny or desposition or at least prevented or opposed disasters like Dumai's Wells and so forth.<br />If you really want to know how good the rebellion is for the world look at the reactions of the Forsaken to it in Chapter Three: &quot;They're determined to hold on?&quot; Mesaana murmured... She nodded. &quot;Good. Good...&quot;<br />Aran'gar:&quot;I want the girl, Mesaana. Without her I have much weaker tools to work with.&quot;<br /><br />The FORSAKEN are the Child Amyrlin's biggest fans!<br />Heroine, my @$$.  We have to put up with horrible leaders in real life who use fake wars to keep themselves in power, we don't need fantasy ones, and we especially don't need her being compared to the Man who introduced most concepts of mercy, forgiveness and charity to western civilization (unless you really think those ideas came from the Romans or Teutons).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 06:35:15
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
I agree with the legality of Elaida in your aguements, but think of Egwene in only that one chapter, not in any other in any other book. In that one chapter there isn't really anything bad she's done. You could argue that she is undermining the true authority of the Tower, which could be interpretted as bad....but then to the Hebrews that were against JC (sorry F-T), He was doing much the same.<br /><br />Don't get drawn into an arguement that doesn't exist. You seem to hate Egwene (I think Elayne is far worse), but try to think of her (with regards to this discussion) in this chapter only, pretend you have never met her before. Forget all the (valid) arguements you have made from other parts of the series and view her by the actions she's made in that one chapter.


created: 2005-11-08 09:41:53
subject: <b>Feeble Man</b>
body:
<b>This theory and following blackboard posts just proves how much of a huge waste of time religion, ESPECIALLY Christinanity, is.</b><br /><br />Just curious, why do you single out Christianity in particular?<br /><br /><b>And don't compare Jesus to Egwene. Jesus was a fake and just wanted attention. he wanted to get back at the Jews for not wanting him around. he never really accomplished anything. The bible may say he did, but where's the proof.</b><br /><br />Then why are we still talking about Him? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--Sinth<br />


created: 2005-11-08 10:12:30
subject: <b>Someone special</b>
body:
I'm not sure what some people are getting so worked up about. It is fairly evident by now that Jordan picks and chooses among a variety of important and not so important historical and mythical figures to develop his characters.  Seems perfectly reasonable that Jesus Christ fits the bill of an important historical figure and that RJ would cherry-pick character traits to suit his needs.  Doesn't really matter whether you are Christian or not, the image of Christ and the traits embodied in the historical interpretations of his character are generally those of goodness and sacrifice for the good of others.  It is immaterial whether these traits correspond actual history or myth because the source of the traits is probably not as important as the traits themselves.  They are special things we value in people we respect, hence we (as readers) and those characters in the books who interact with Egwene come to respect her however much they try not to.  As with many other theories (including my own) I'm not sure how important this is to the overall plot lines in the book (we can't expect Egwene's life to parallel that of Christ, it would be pretty unoriginal) but congrats on thinking outside of the box and coming up with something worthy of discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 21:31:50
subject: <b>thank you, sinth!</b>
body:
in response to feeble man's recent post, i agree with sinth. feeble man, how can you say a man never accomplished anything when millions of people are still following his teachings two thousand years later. come on. and for the remark about christianity bering a waste of time--well, based on the obvious facts, (this blackboard, for one, and also all the many religious disputes and even wars based solely on religion) there are a substantial number of people who disagree here...


created: 2005-11-09 21:01:14
subject: <b>A few things on this board...</b>
body:
Senith, this is the dumbest theory I have ever heard even from theat chapter and as a catholic I bet I know a little bit more about comparisons to Christ than some people. Jofraz, a woman could never be elected pope. Dacole what are you talking about about in your post about Cannoli? You start talking about elianine or whatever you wrote. And finally someone besides me who thinks Egwene was elected to be a puppet.


created: 2005-11-10 00:29:46
subject: <b>Rebuttal #3</b>
body:
In response to the person wondering why I singled out Christiananity, I give this reason: just returning the favor of 2000 of oppression. And that religion is one reason this country is going down the drain. <br /><br />As to the Jesus being a fake thing and people still following him, they are following blind. Who can really tell what some bum 2000 years dead really wanted people to do? Besides, we killed him first and we damn well killed him right. By that time we had experience a couple millenia of being killed. So we knew when it was the right thing to do. And do you know why Jesus was 'resurrected?' It's because God didn't want him around for eternity.<br /><br />Oh, and if anyone has anything to say otherwise, they can answer to me and my hammer of Hebrew justice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-10 07:56:44
subject: <b>To sinth</b>
body:
Read Macchiavelli's The Prince. <br /><br />Compare his advice to rulers about lying (by omission), manipulating and using (threats of) violence to get your own way to Egwenes actions. <br /><br />If you do this, you'll have to admit that she is acting exactly according to macchiavellian politics. Many of the occurances you cite for her being Christlike fit much better in a macchiavellian scheme in which everything that is expedient (for you) is necesary.<br /><br />I would write a theory about Macchiavellis works as a major source for Egwenes character -it would be dead easy- except that I think something like that has already been done and I wouldn't want to steal anyone's ideas. Does anyonse still have the link?


created: 2005-11-10 23:51:21
subject: <b>Feeble Man again</b>
body:
<b>In response to the person wondering why I singled out Christiananity, I give this reason: just returning the favor of 2000 of oppression. And that religion is one reason this country is going down the drain.</b><br /><br />Feeble Man, as a Christian I'd like to personally apologize for all the horrible things that have been done to Jewish people over the years in the name of Christ.  I mean that.<br /><br />But you should also know that the anti-Semitism isn't what Christians are about.  Jesus and His disciples were all Jews.  The earliest Christians were all Jewish, before it spread.  Early Jewish Christians continued to worship at the Temple until they were barred from it.<br /><br />Today, the United States is the biggest supporter of Israel in the world, not just because we have a lot of Jewish people in this country, but also because of a lot of pro-Israel Christians.<br /><br />As for your accusation that Christianity is leading to the downfall of America, well I find that really ironic considering we're a lot less Christian now than we've been historically.<br />


created: 2005-11-11 00:09:26
subject: <b>Here's to Sinth</b>
body:
I accept your humble apology when you speak out for all the applicable individuals. But the only way I will have peace of mind is if you make me some of the most awesome latkes that ever existed. It is nearly that time of the year, you know. Maybe a carefully sculpted driedel made out of clay. Oh, how I will play.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-11 06:21:07
subject: <b>Elaida's legality</b>
body:
I just don't understand how she can be a legal Amyrlin. Surely you can't claim that any blue sitter voted for her? Since none did, she cannot be the rightful Amyrlin. By the same token, nor can Egwene. Neither side in the rebellion has a lawful Amyrlin seat, only Egwene has a better chance to reunite the tower because she has no intensions of alienating an entire Ajah just because the one she opposes belonged to it.<br />Also, it was Elaida who started the shedding of blood when she stilled Siuan. You guys do remember that she hired a load of goons to pose as workers repairing the libraries?<br />And as for the justification of her killing Alric, any interferance on his part could have been stopped by wrapping him up in air. There was NO reason to kill him.<br />I also don't understand why Egwene is seen as power hugry. She did not ask to be Amyrlin. She has also said that she would have given herself up to Elaida if it would do any good. It wouldn't have, so she continued with the rebellion. And lets hope she has no problems succeeding.


created: 2005-11-11 17:56:04
subject: <b>ah, the misguided catholic...</b>
body:
Ralith wrote:<br />&quot;Senith, this is the dumbest theory I have ever heard even from theat chapter and as a catholic I bet I know a little bit more about comparisons to Christ than some people. Jofraz, a woman could never be elected pope. . .And finally someone besides me who thinks Egwene was elected to be a puppet.&quot;<br /><br />ok, first of all, as a non-catholic, i bet you DONT know more than everyone else about comparisons to Christ. since when are catholics superior to the rest of the world? also, im pretty sure jofraz never said egwene would be elected pope, so you can rest easy on that one. . .and im pretty sure everyone agrees that egwene was raised amyrlin to be a puppet. since, you know, it kinda comes right out and says it in the books. . .the thing is, she is not the puppet that the rebels wanted her to be.


created: 2005-11-12 00:31:11
subject: <b>Jordan said so...</b>
body:
In response to fionwe1987:<br /><br />Jordan stated in the QotW that they held a Sitting of the Hall to depose Siuan, and the Amyrlin's former Ajah does not have to be notified of the session (as an example for a reason why not, look at how the Red Ajah's Highest is willing to cover for Elaida simply because she came from the Red, or what happened when they deposed a Blue - the Blues tried a violent uprising to break her out! ).  At the same session, immediately after voting to depose Siuan, they elected Elaida as the Amyrlin Seat.  She was already Amyrlin when she walked in on Siuan in the scene we saw in tSR.  She was legitimate.  None of her blunders since then change that fact.  And Egwene didn't have the whole Hall.  She had nine Sitters who fled the Tower (where the Hall is supposed to meet), and nine women who were chosen by 1/3 of their Ajahs to represent the whole Ajah.  Egwene's whole faction is based on the idea that if you don't like or want an Amyrlin, you don't have to acknowledge her as the Amyrlin.  But she insists that women who stayed in the Tower in support of a validly elected Amyrlin, acknowledge HER.  When no woman in the Tower voted in an election choosing half of the &quot;Sitters&quot; who stood for Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-12 01:00:18
subject:
<b>Thank God, finally a post not about religion (When I say 'thank God', I don't mean Jesus. *cough* Fake *cough<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Well I think the title adequately sums up my post. So, later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-12 11:27:42
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
<b>But [Egwene] insists that women who stayed in the Tower in support of a validly elected Amyrlin, acknowledge HER.</b><br /><br />Where are you getting this from?  I've seen zero examples of Egwene demanding acknowledgement from non-rebels.  Can you give a reference here?  The only questionable case is Beonin, since she only pretended to be a rebel, but she swore personal fealty to Egwene, so I think that trumps even Amyrlin authority.<br />


created: 2005-11-12 13:58:58
subject: <b>Feeble Man</b>
body:
I would have thought that someone who comes from a religion that has been persecuted for a few thousand years, had to endure terrible hardships by ignorant and evil people, had so much needless and unwarranted suffering placed upon them would not be so aggressive to other people's beliefs.<br /><br />EVERY group of people and EVERY religion has its nutters, people that should be killed on sight, people that start trouble in the name of religion that do not deserve life.<br /><br />To place people sharing the same religion/belief/ideals in one bucket, treating them all the same by &quot;marking territory&quot; over them is wrong. By doing that, you go down to their level.


created: 2005-11-12 19:35:30
subject: <b>She refuses to obey certain commands and perform certain courtesies</b>
body:
If Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat of a seperate Tower than she should at least acknowledge that her status in the enemy Tower is whatever they say it is.  Yet she seems to think that she does not have to obey the rules or do what she's told because she is the Amyrlin Seat.  Well, she isn't.  Not to them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-13 02:56:21
subject: <b>To Cannoli...</b>
body:
I still contest what you said. Yes, to depose an Amyrlin Seat, the Sitters of her former Ajah need not be present. However the BWB states that the election of a new Amyrlin needs votes from all the Ajahs. And that makes sense. How can the new Amyrlin be of all Ajahs and of none if one Ajah is not allowed to have their say in who is Amyrlin?<br />All evidence points to the fact that there was no Blue sitter who stood foe Elaida and no Red for Egwene. Both are, therefore, illegal. This, I feel is why so many AS joined up the Rebels in the first place. Elaida's action of having herself elected to the highest office by breaking the law, and also bringing in mercenaries to quell resistance was nothing more than a coup. She broke the law in letter and also in spirit.<br />Anaiya says that you do not have to like an Amyrlin to work with her, and I think that is the attitude of many sisters. But when a woman breaks the law to take the highest office, there is certainly a reason for rebellion!


created: 2005-11-13 04:28:14
subject: <b>Jordan said the election was legit. Period.</b>
body:
The BWB was, after all, written in the style of a writer from the third age, with the limited resources of a native.  The following is the quote on Tower Law:<br /><br /><b>The greater consensus requires that every sister who is present must stand, and that a minimum of eleven Sitters be present; The presence of at least one Sitter from each Ajah is also required, except when the matter before the Hall is the removal of an Amyrlin of Keeper, in which case the Ajah from which she was raised will not be informed of the vote until after it is taken.</b><br /><br />The statement is that you need eleven Sitters present, and all present must stand.  You don't need a Blue if you are meeting to depose an Amyrlin and a Keeper who were raised from the Blue.  Let's just say Elaida wanted to inform them, the law above says she can't - the Blue is informed AFTER the vote!  Also, Robert Jordan, Anaiya of the Blue, and Cadsuane have all stated that Elaida WAS validly elected.  Whatever violation of the spirit of Tower Law (or your opinion on the conduct of elections) took place, it doesn't matter, since she WAS elected validly.  It has been pointed out elsewhere that the letter of the law is more important to Aes Sedai than the spirit (think of Sheriam's sanctimonious lecture about why Nynaeve can't be rewarded for Healing Siuan and Leane, or how the Black Ajah hunters acknowledge they are likely to be punished for their actions to find and expose the Black Ajah).<br />I think a lot of Aes Sedai laws and policies are stupid and unjust, but that doesn't change the fact that Elaida was raised to the Amyrlin Seat in accordance with the laws.  She even says so in the prologue to aCoS, and Aes Sedai are not allowed to even exagerate by the First Oath.  If she has violated any laws about the Amyrlin Seat, it is by allowing Egwene to remain unstilled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-14 03:19:09
subject: <b>The legality(again!!)</b>
body:
The greater consensus requires that every sister who is present must stand, and that a minimum of eleven Sitters be present; The presence of at least one Sitter from each Ajah is also required, except when the matter before the Hall is the removal of an Amyrlin or Keeper, in which case the Ajah from which she was raised will not be informed of the vote until after it is taken.<br /><br />Well there you have it- this says clearly that the absence of all sitters from an Ajah for a vote is permitted only when an Amyrlin or a Keeper is removed, NOT in the case of the election of a new Amyrlin. Elaida did violate the law. As for your arguement about the validity of the guide, the statement you made applies to details from the AOL and other ancient historical issues. Matters of Tower law(except those in the 13th depository) are verifiable. The law stated above is not a guess!<br />As for Anaiya's statement, if I remember aright, she says that the deposing of Siuan was legal, if barely so, but she certainly makes no mention of Elaida's raising being legal. Cadsuane's statement on Elaida's legality can be explained from the fact that all her information is second hand. She wasn't there herself. I would give more credence to Siuan's views on the subject, and she refers to Elaida's actions as a coup. Ofcourse, you can argue that this is a biased view, but Siuan's reading of the law never has seemed biased by personal considerations.<br />I think I still hold with my position that both the Amyrlin's are illegal by existing tower laws.


created: 2005-11-15 00:02:51
subject: <b>Wow, even more posts about WoT instead of religion. Like this one will partly be.</b>
body:
This is for Vind aloo. I have not sunken to the christians' level of bashing other people because of their religion. I have sunken to the level of bashing people because of their sexual preference. That's right. I have not been ridiculing Jesus because he was Jesus, I was ridiculing him because, (according to this theory) Jesus was gay.<br /><br />Let me explain. This theory compared Egwene to Jesus. And in a sense, that is the same thing as comparing Jesus to Egwene. Sinth was just comparing similar points. <br /><br />Now for the rest of it all. Egwene likes guys. A lot. If WoT took place in a more modern era, she would have slept with Gawyn, Galad, and maybe even Rand earlier back. So we have her sexuality in place. <br /><br />Now with Jesus, he was compared to Egwene. So it would be safe to conclude that sexuality was included in this comparison. And since there aren't any descendants of God running around still, Jesus obviously didn't get down with any woman. Why, you say? Because he liked men. A lot. Just like Egwene. I bet if Jesus came across Gawyn alone in a field, Jesus would pull some funky 'God' powers and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And so, that is why I have been bashing Jesus<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" />. Not because Christiananity sucks, even though it does, but because gay people suck. In more ways than one              .               .      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />But don't you find it odd that a religion that has been persecuting homosexuals for hundreds upon hundreds of years was founded by the Queen among Kings? I mean, come on. Can you get any more hypocritical than that? If you do, let me know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-15 06:16:00
subject: <b>Lol, well...</b>
body:
I don't think I need to reply to that. You seem more than adequate of making an idiot of yourself. Well done!


created: 2005-11-15 09:27:27
subject: <b>DEAD WRONG FEEBLE MAN</b>
body:
dude Jesus was Mesiah, God with us. that means that he could not sin in any way, God cannot have sin around him or He would not be God, that's why hell exists.  Therefore Jesus could not be gay.  The reason there are no decendents of Christ is because Jesus was here for one reason only, not to procreat but to save mankind by offering pardon for their sins and allowing people to enter heaven clean and new. By bashing Christ you are bashing Christianity dufus.<br />  NOW QUIT BASHING THE FAITH!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, I know i slep my nema worng!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-15 23:28:20
subject: <b>Respect your elders</b>
body:
It is hard for me to stop bashing christianity. They are the new kids on the block. The fresh meat. The new fish. Therefore, that hypocritical religion has no say on what should happen. Important decisions like that should be left to the elders (or since this is a WoT site, religion's version of the Women's Circle. But since there aren't any true matriarchies around anymore, this isn't totally accurate). And since christianity is a monotheism, they should listen to the first and foremost monotheism: Judaism. <br /><br />We have been around the longest and know what's right and what's not. And the religion has not gone senile yet. We are not the ones that have gone around killing anyone we don't like. Christianity IS the one doing that. So christianity must be senile and therefore very old. Possibly on the verge of extinction. And the world will be better for it.<br /><br />As for Vind aloo. I am not the fool here. May I point out who is following Jesus?<br /><br />And Leto Atriedes. How do you know God is pure and without sin. Have you been to see him? And besides, nothing is totally pure. Nothing. When something becomes totally pure, bad stuff happens. i.e. the Cataclysm. However, Hell is not there to balance Heaven. It is there so there is a place for disgraced angels and malignant dead to live. God could have been unmerciful and just had those individuals cease to exist and not have an abode for them.<br /><br />Also, God DOES have sin around him. I have heard that he is all encompasing, all knowing. Therefore he is a part of sin. But according to you, this would make him just an omnipotent being and not God. I guess there is no God then.<br /><br />On a more academic level, learn how to count Leto. You said there was one reason Jesus was on Earth, to absolve people AND allow them to go to heaven. I count two reasons there. That's what 'and' is for, linking more than one idea together. You are not a freakin' Gully dwarf so learn how to count. Anyway, why did you guys need a messiah to do that. Jews have been going to heaven for millenia before Jesus came around. And aren't there priests around for absolution anyway? Okay, let me get this straight. The only reason Jesus came around was because the people that Jesus took the place of were too lazy to do their jobs? How pathetic is that.<br /><br />As for bashing Jesus at the same time as bashing christianity. I was bashing Jesus alone. Unless you want me to bash the whole religion. I was trying to make a point that you guys were the ones that were prejudiced like that.<br /><br />How does the truth taste! MOTHER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" />!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 05:09:25
subject: <b>The Truth Tastes....</b>
body:
Firstly, using your logic, you should go against Islam as it is newer that Christianity.<br />As for Jewish people not going around killing people, you have some strong fanatics in Israel that murder and kill innocent Palestinians as rabidly as they kill yours. And have admitted as such.<br />I follow no religion, I can't accept the idea of God, any God. So you could say I think all theists are fools, but I don't, I respect people's beliefs. Try it sometime.<br />As for Hell being an abode for naughty people to live, if it's as bad as it sounds, i'd rather cease to exist than &quot;mercifully&quot; spend eternity making sweet sweet love to a red hot poker.<br />It shows how weak your case is (and indeed how weak you are) that you pick up on people's grammar/spelling, or lack of, to argue against them.<br /><br />I'll do the same to you, I think...<br /><br />&quot;As for bashing Jesus at the same time as bashing christianity. I was bashing Jesus alone. Unless you want me to bash the whole religion. I was trying to make a point that you guys were the ones that were prejudiced like that.&quot; Quoth the idiot.<br /><br />What about your first religion bashing post?<br /><br />&quot;This theory and following blackboard posts just proves how much of a huge waste of time religion, ESPECIALLY Christinanity, is.&quot; Quoth the idiot.<br /><br />So there you go, bashing Christianity before bashing Jesus.<br /><br />&quot;I was trying to make a point that you guys were the ones that were prejudiced like that.&quot; Quoth the idiot.<br /><br />So you are treating an entire group of people on the actions of a fraction of a percentage from that group. How mature is that?<br /><br />There you go, Feeble Man (quite an apt name), the truth tastes....like chicken.<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-16 11:48:41
subject: <b>Judaism is newer than you think...</b>
body:
The records of the old priestly bloodlines have been lost since the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.  Judaisim is basically a ship that is coasting along on momentum and currents, but the captain and crew are gone, and no one can read the manuals.  So Christianity is older than the current form of Judaisim by about forty years or so.  Plus, we got started earlier.  Melchisadec made the first offering of wine and bread back before Abraham went looking for the Promised Land.  <br />Catholicism has been tracing its priestly ancestry back to Melchisadec, and the Protestants all branched off from there.    Not only that, you could argue that the Jews of the Old Testament were actually Christians, since they were waiting for Him.  The Jews who still await the Messiah, are the Shaido who don't believe in the true car'a'carn.  Sorry, but someone had to say it.<br /><br />fionwe1987 - Regarding the quote about Elaida's legitimacy, she was raised at the same Sitting where Siuan was deposed.  So it WAS legal for them to meet.  AND JORDAN SAID SHE WAS THE LEGAL AMYRLIN!  That trumps any twisting of the TOwer's laws to fit your personal preferences.  And regarding what the Council in Salidar said how about &quot;We cannot follow an Amyrlin who would do such a thing.&quot;  They acknowledged her as Amyrlin, and chose to stop because of her crimes, not because she was not the real Amyrlin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 14:57:22
subject: <b>Regarding Feebleman's rant...</b>
body:
You insist people learn how to count, but you can't read very well.  This is wotmania, not Dragonlance-mania (and quite frankly, can you trust the opinions of a person who thinks those hacks who assembled the Dragonlance series in committee belong in the same category as Jordan? )<br />Regarding the actual &quot;counting issue&quot; Christians believe that absolution of sins is necessary to get to heaven.  The poster said one reason which was the absolution of sins.  &quot;And&quot; indicates a sequence, not a second quantity.  The &quot;and&quot; indicated the reason for absolution, not an additional reason.  Why else would someone want their sins absolved?  It doesn't undo the earthly wrong that was comitted or erase your memory of doing it, so the only reason must be to allow you to get to heaven.   That is easily discernable in the other writer's post, unless you are so blinded by your prejudices you cannot stop to read what they actually wrote.  Your bigoted, knee-jerk, dogmatism is best left inside your own head, and your claim of another's prejudice is particularly ironic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 22:19:09
subject: <b>Whoa</b>
body:
You crossed a line there. Saying Dragonlance was unworthy. Try saying that to Raistlin's face. Then we will se who is unworthy.<br /><br />And don't go saying 'Try saying that to Rand's face.' He'll just balefire me and I'd be dead before I knew that it was a bad thing to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-17 05:46:55
subject: <b>To Cannoli</b>
body:
fionwe1987 - Regarding the quote about Elaida's legitimacy, she was raised at the same Sitting where Siuan was deposed. So it WAS legal for them to meet. AND JORDAN SAID SHE WAS THE LEGAL AMYRLIN! That trumps any twisting of the TOwer's laws to fit your personal preferences. And regarding what the Council in Salidar said how about &quot;We cannot follow an Amyrlin who would do such a thing.&quot; They acknowledged her as Amyrlin, and chose to stop because of her crimes, not because she was not the real Amyrlin.<br /><br /><br />The sitting to depose Siuan was legal,whereas the same sitting did NOT havethe right to raise a new Amyrlin. There was NO Blue Ajah sitter.<br />Can you tell me where RJ said Elaida was legal?Can you please give me the quote. I would like to see it and I don't seem to be able to find it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-11-17 18:38:02
subject: <b>feeble man</b>
body:
while i would very much like to agree with mickydee in saying that there is no need to respond to the crap posted by a certain wotmania user who (shall remain nameless even though his name is the title. . .) i cant resist the urge to flame him into oblivion (to borrow a phrase from fanatic-templar).<br /><br />&quot;As for bashing Jesus at the same time as bashing christianity. I was bashing Jesus alone. Unless you want me to bash the whole religion. I was trying to make a point that you guys were the ones that were prejudiced like that.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;It is hard for me to stop bashing christianity. They are the new kids on the block. The fresh meat. The new fish. Therefore, that hypocritical religion has no say on what should happen. Important decisions like that should be left to the elders (or since this is a WoT site, religion's version of the Women's Circle. But since there aren't any true matriarchies around anymore, this isn't totally accurate). And since christianity is a monotheism, they should listen to the first and foremost monotheism: Judaism.&quot;<br /><br />does anyone else think it odd that this guy is enough of a moron to write these two things in the same post? maybe its just me, but im starting to wonder about the credibility of anything this idiot posts.<br /><br />decisions like that should be left to the elders? i cant see how that pertains to anything, since judaism was the forerunner for christianity. the only reason there IS christianity is because the first covenant (judaism) was not perfect. so apparently judaism has no superiority to christianity, since it has its defects.<br /><br />&quot;We have been around the longest and know what's right and what's not. And the religion has not gone senile yet. We are not the ones that have gone around killing anyone we don't like. Christianity IS the one doing that. So christianity must be senile and therefore very old. Possibly on the verge of extinction. And the world will be better for it.&quot;<br /><br />yes, they do know what it right and what is wrong in virtually all categories. but the religion has gone senile. cannoli already pointed out (i think), when the romans destroyed jerusalem in 70 a.d. (which was a judgment by God, by the way) all records were destroyed, but thats not what i mean. the law given to the jews by God is all included in the pentateuch/torah, which is still around today, and is the first five books of the christian bible. but judaism wasnt being practiced correctly even back in the time of Christ. there were several sects of jews, which was not intended, and most devout jews cared only about what others thought of them. id go into detail, but this is already getting kinda long. the point is, jews have forgotten much of the way the religions was intended to be practiced.<br /><br />&quot;Also, God DOES have sin around him. I have heard that he is all encompasing, all knowing. Therefore he is a part of sin. But according to you, this would make him just an omnipotent being and not God. I guess there is no God then.&quot;<br /><br />there are so many flaws and so much nonsense in this that it doesnt even merit going into all. it just makes no sense.<br /><br />&quot;On a more academic level, learn how to count Leto. You said there was one reason Jesus was on Earth, to absolve people AND allow them to go to heaven. I count two reasons there. That's what 'and' is for, linking more than one idea together. You are not a freakin' Gully dwarf so learn how to count. Anyway, why did you guys need a messiah to do that. Jews have been going to heaven for millenia before Jesus came around. And aren't there priests around for absolution anyway? Okay, let me get this straight. The only reason Jesus came around was because the people that Jesus took the place of were too lazy to do their jobs? How pathetic is that.&quot;<br /><br />and leto was exactly right. Christ came for one reason. absolving people from sin and allowing them access to heaven are part of the same thing. it is impossible to have one without the other. also, if youd care to read up a tad more on your own religion, youd realize that the messiah was awaited by the jews. they all knew, based on countless prophecies, that the son of God would come to earth in order to become the ultimate sacrifice. and, ii might add, no one goes to heaven until the final judgment. if you think jews have been going there for millennia, i wonder how you can possibly know? once again, if you would learn your own religion before spouting useless crap at everyone, you would learn of your folly. and (again with the ignorance thing) priests were not there for absolution. sacrificing animals could not take away sin. animal sacrifice was like a paying God to buy them time until Christ could come.<br /><br />in hindsight i wrote too much and dropped to the level of this moron who isnt even fully acquainted with the religion he claims is better than everyone elses, which he knows even less about, but at least i can rest knowing that ive given my two cents worth to the wotmania community &lt;end sarcastic sappy tone&gt;


created: 2005-11-17 19:38:29
subject: <b>fionwe1987</b>
body:
<b>As a Sitter, Elaida was able to call a sitting of the Hall while making sure that only the Sitters she wanted to attend actually received notification. Elaida is a forceful and effective speaker, and her arguments to this bare quorum in favor of deposing Siuan were also her campaign for being raised to the Amyrlin Seat herself, so the vote to depose Siuan was followed immediately by the vote to make Elaida the new Amyrlin. </b><br /><br />Right there, according to RJ, they did it.  There is no rule about what business may or may not be voted on at a sitting of the Hall.  Or if there is, it has yet to be revealed.  Unless you really think six other Ajahs would really blow off a rule that might cause a rebellion.  In a later book, Elaida says she took advantage of all the loopholes in the rules, and knows them well.  While there might not be a quote explicitly stating that something is legal, everyone else seems to be acting as if it is.  Why would Seaine stay, despite not being notified, if she thought the procedure was illegal?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-18 12:37:04
subject: <b>To Cannoli</b>
body:
As a Sitter, Elaida was able to call a sitting of the Hall while making sure that only the Sitters she wanted to attend actually received notification. Elaida is a forceful and effective speaker, and her arguments to this bare quorum in favor of deposing Siuan were also her campaign for being raised to the Amyrlin Seat herself, so the vote to depose Siuan was followed immediately by the vote to make Elaida the new Amyrlin. <br />This certainly does not prove that Elaida was raised legally! All it says is she was able to legally call on the Hall. She spoke to a bare quorum and convinced them that Siuan must be deposed and that she should be raised in her place. While, by Tower law, this quorum was enough to depose Siuan, it was not enough to raise Elaida Amyrlin. There HAD to be atleast one Blue Sitter for Elaida to be leagal. Since there were none, Elaida is illegal.<br />


created: 2005-11-20 01:15:00
subject: <b>Fionwe1987</b>
body:
I had a quote - show me yours.  I demonstrated it was a legal meeting.  Show me where it says you need to bring someone else in halfway through, or that no business can be discussed or voted on besides what they called the Hall for.  You're just making that up to suit your perceptions.  No one has called Elaida's election illegitimate or illegal.  They have claimed that she is bad or a usurper, but not that she was elected illegally.  Someone certainly would have mentioned it, and the rest of the Sitters in the Tower all seem to think the election was valid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-20 08:09:41
subject: <b>Huh...?</b>
body:
I had a quote - show me yours. I demonstrated it was a legal meeting. Show me where it says you need to bring someone else in halfway through, or that no business can be discussed or voted on besides what they called the Hall for. You're just making that up to suit your perceptions. No one has called Elaida's election illegitimate or illegal. They have claimed that she is bad or a usurper, but not that she was elected illegally. Someone certainly would have mentioned it, and the rest of the Sitters in the Tower all seem to think the election was valid.<br /><br />You had a quote true, but you interpreted that quote to suit you needs. The quote you provided did NOT say Elaida was raised legally. It only said that the hall gathered legally to depose Siuan.<br />The law is quite clear. You need a greater consensus to raise an Amyrlin and to depose her as well. For a greater consensus, all sitters who are present must stand together, and atleast eleven sitters must be present and atleast one from each Ajah. The only exception to this definition of the greater consensus, the ONLY ONE, is in the case of the deposal of an Amyrlin or a Keeper. So you can call a meeting of a hall with no sitter from the Ajah of the Amyrlin or Keeper to depose them, but you cannot use the same sitting to do other buissness.<br />Also, the Amyrlin has to be of all Ajahs and of none. While we know of no Law which says this, it has been repeated so many times that it seems to be a very important. How then can Tower Law countenance the raising of an Amyrlin without the approval and backing of one Ajah?<br />So, far from making up anything, I've based what I said on facts. You certainly have made some assumptions. How can you possibly say that a sitting of the Hall that was legal for deposin Siuan was legal for the raising of Elaida?<br />RJ says in that quote that Elaida's speech in favour of deposing Siuan was also her campaign speech for being raised herself. That is all. There is no mention of the &quot;fact&quot; that the sitting to depose Siuan had the legal right to raise Elaida.<br />I stand by what I have said, both Egwene and Elaida are illegal.


created: 2005-11-21 00:33:07
subject: <b>WOW! What a reaction!</b>
body:
I voted yes, but I don't think the parallels are overwhelming.<br /><br />First: Neither Rand nor Egwene are conceived as part of the Godhead.  The parallel at this point would be stronger for Rand, sacrificing himself to save humanity.<br /><br />But many aspects of the Aes Sedai practices are borrowed from Christian practices and monastic life.<br /><br />With this in mind, I'm not surprised with the christ parallels.  But I think they arise out of the setting and the conflicts--they are almost archetypal.  Egwene can provide leadership by thought action and example.  What she cannot provide is salvation ofor their souls.  There the analogy fails.<br /><br />But also recall that the Aes Sedai and manastic life in some small part held to the ideal that their life would be an imitation of aspects of Christ's life. Thus Egwene's actions are somewhat valued in a like manner.


created: 2005-11-22 01:11:45
subject: <b>YHBT. YHL. HAND.</b>
body:
Suckers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-03 19:29:00
subject: <b>reptile</b>
body:
<b>With this in mind, I'm not surprised with the christ parallels. But I think they arise out of the setting and the conflicts--they are almost archetypal. Egwene can provide leadership by thought action and example. What she cannot provide is salvation ofor their souls. There the analogy fails.</b><br /><br />I think the point would be that Egwene may be the key to the Tower's salvation in a temporal and material sense.  We'll see if the story bears that out.  Remember, Christ's coming was not just for the spiritual, but also the temporal and material salvation of Israel.  Unfortunately, their rejection of Him as King and Messiah forestalled the latter purposes until His return.<br />


created: 2005-12-09 16:42:26
subject: <b>Nice work!</b>
body:
I enjoyed the theory, but ended up voting &quot;no&quot;.  I think that Egwene is doing an excellent and inspiring job of &quot;taking up the cross,&quot; but doing what Jesus would do doesn't make you Jesus, it just makes you Christ-like.  The biggest difference is that Eggie isn't the Redeemer.


created: 2006-04-30 05:45:18
subject: <b>Not Convinced</b>
body:
To beleive that RJ modelled this whole character on one person would be a crime to the man himself. Doing that would show little imagination. And we all know he has plenty of that. Sure RJ has used alot of other historical and mythological figures as what I believe to be a relation to the real world, such as artur hawkwing (name is an adulteraion of king arthurs name) and ishmael (ishamael is believed in judaism to be an small evil spirit) and so many others but each of these characters, although similar in name and attribute, has their own story. <br /><br />Remember that Jesus was rejected by all but an insignificant number of his followers as king of israel and was killed for it. He claimed to be a whole lot more than that too. Son of                              God for example. And each feat performed by Jesus is heresay from a book that was written hundreds of years after the man died. Each of these things is different to Egwene's character. True she claims a right that many deny her but unlike Christ she has a following attempting to enforce it. She does not claim to be more than that. Jesus is all about forgiveness and dying for our sins where as we see while in the tower Egwene often has vengeful thoughts.<br /><br />For those who say that Egwene has no right to Amyrlin I also disagree with. She was raised to the letter of the law by a hall elected by sisters as it must be done. Their is no doubt she is rightfully Amyrlin but also there is no Doubt that Elaida also is. The difference is that Elaida unlawfully deposed the previous Amyrlin and elected herself as Amyrlin. By law the Amyrlin must be elected by the hall. Yes the hall allowed it but who is to say why. No one liked it from day one.<br /><br />On a final point, if Jesus was so good why did he only last 3 days on the cross unlike other prisoners (who got the same treated i.e. thorns around his head, stabbed with spears, stoned by onlookers) who lasted an average of six?


created: 2006-10-16 03:39:11
subject: <b>...Fanatic?</b>
body:
Egwene is quite honestly, a young woman who needs someone to sit on her head for a while. She has and immense amount of arrogance, and she is absolutely horrible to her friends.  She is angry with Rand for making Aes Sedai swear alleigance to him, but then she makes people swear oaths of fealty to her, which has NEVER been required by an Amyrlin.  All that is important for the WT is to make sure that Aes Sedai are at the Last Battle!  I think that Elaida should not be Amyrlin and should be deposed, but I think that even NYNAEVE would be better as Amyrlin than Egwene!


created: 2005-11-10 07:39:49
subject: <b>So that explains...</b>
body:
...the Dark One's terrible counterstroke...THAT'S why he is spoiling all the food!!!<br /><br />The cooks' geese are...well...cooked...


created: 2005-11-10 12:35:43
subject: <b>The sad thing is that...</b>
body:
...asides from the fact that it is complete nonsense, that has the most evidence and is the best backed up of all the Who killed asmo? theories I have ever read...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-10 13:52:09
subject: <b>Sammael is toast.</b>
body:
I actually giggled out loud.  Worth it just for that line.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Hmm...Mat is constantly thinking about saving people's bacon...<br />Coincidence?  Perhaps not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-10 14:15:04
subject: <b>Multifaceted, aren't you?</b>
body:
Good posts, great humor.<br />Rock on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must also use illusion and raid the Palace disguised as giant marshmallows. <br />The Nae&#8217;blis has spoken.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-10 16:02:03
subject: <b>Eggy</b>
body:
It's kind of surprising that Egwene doesn't follow in her mother's footsteps and become a master chef. Why become Amyrlin and settle for second best?<br /><br />That's one thing I've never understood about this series.


created: 2005-11-10 19:03:44
subject: <b>Well considered, well raisin'd</b>
body:
I started reading your theory with mild scepticism admittedly (frankly I thought it half-baked). By the time you explained Asmodean's demise I have to admit that I was fully convinced, my appetite was whetted and I was eager for what other tasty tidbits you chose to serve up to us.<br /><br />This explains sooo much. Your arguments, whilst finely sliced, are spiced with enough evidence to please the most discerning palate. You missed the evidence from Mat's POV's in the Tarasin Palace and in the Wandering Woman that clearly show the unvisersal power of cooks over Channellers and even Ta'veren. Consider that it was after one encounter (the cook in the Wandering Woman) that led to the other (the cooks in the kitchen of the Tarasin Palace), that you could in truth say that he had &quot;jumped out of the frypan, into the fire&quot;. Mind you on further reflection perhaps you intented on serving this as a later course?<br /><br />I was impressed by how you chopped and diced the evidence to suit, how you sifted through the facts, and resisted posting a theory just for a stir. I would still like to see you blend further evidence into a more comprehensive theory, but if you feel that this should be kept on a knead-to-know basis, I will understand.<br /><br />Has anyone considered that the effects on food going off may not in fact be directly a result of the Dark One's touch? After all we know that &quot;too many cooks spoil the broth&quot;.<br /><br />We also have evidence of the ability of cooks to deal with proto-Channellers in a way that is similar and yet different to the effects of a Stedding. Consider Rand Al'Thor's experience with Marin Al'Vere in tEotW with his later experience in an Ogier Stedding. The same feeling of relief and refreshment, but without the feeling of something missing.<br /><br />All-in-all, some hot and tasty evidence, backed by well prepared presentation. Without any personal steak, I took a stab at the meat of your theory, thinking that it would be underdone, but as rare as it seems, your theory didn't bleed at all - well done!<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-11 00:02:06
subject: <b>The anti-gholam</b>
body:
So you have managed to identify the Light's equivalent of the Gholam in the Cooks. Now we need to find the other equivalents.<br /><br />It's fairly obvious that Ogier are the Light's counter for the Trollocs. Similarly, Wolves are the Light's counter for darkhounds. Now lets consider some more Lightspawn.<br /><br />The Draghkar are quite evil, able to suck a person's soul from their body, and able to attract people who walk in the light using their call. So what is the Lightspawn equivalent?<br />Tavern Maids, of course. This can be evidenced by their power even over Ta'veren, especially Mat. How many of the men of the world go to taverns to get some extra soul? That's what Tavern Maids do - they counter the Draghkar by giving soul to their &quot;victims&quot;. At the last battle, we will no doubt see tavern maids giving themselves to Draghkar, who will be killed by an overconsumption of soul. Their leader is Berelain, the tavern-maid-queen. That is why Berelain is so skilled at seduction.<br /><br />Gray men are the dullest of all of the shadowspawn. They have the ability to go completely unnoticed in any room, and have no soul. Is there an equivalent among the Lightspawn?<br />Of course! Tinkers! Being of the Light, the Tinkers are designed to be an opposing force to the Gray men. They go out of their way to be so bright that you cannot stand to look at them (and hence you don't watch them), in contrast to the Gray men, who are so plain that you don't see them. They have more soul than any others under the Light. Their &quot;Song&quot; is nothing of the sort. What they are really searching for is a method of Sonar that will allow them to see Gray men. That's why the trollocs killed the Tinkers in the Two Rivers. The leader among the Tinkers as a whole is the only man described as more gaudy than the Tinkers - Valan Luca.<br /><br />The Aiel are the Myrrdraal of the Light, with the ability to travel through light much as Myrrdraal travel through shadow. That is why you always see them just growing from dips in the land. It also explains why the Wise Ones are able to move without the wind jostling their jewelry, much as myrrdraal's cloaks are not moved by the wind. This is also why the Aiel spark fear amongst shadowspawn (Trollocs call the Aiel waste the &quot;killing grounds&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. It also identifies the Creator's version of Shaidar Haran - Rand Al'Thor. He is of the Aiel (the opposite of Myrrdraal), but different.<br /><br />Are there any other lightspawn that can be identified?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-11 06:04:15
subject: <b>awesome theory</b>
body:
what a great theory...totally silly but also explainable...well done sidious...a good laugh!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-11 09:59:50
subject: <b>I loved this</b>
body:
But actually it hardly seems like a theroy though, I mean it is all so obvious!!!   Just kidding. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-11 10:53:43
subject: <b>I gave this 5 Spoons up!</b>
body:
It is tastefully done, and I savored every moment.<br /><br />As you say, Laras is the great Leader, but with little more effort on her part, she will be able to stand alone in Tarwin`s Gap to save Lan and the Malkieri from the Dark One`s hordes.<br /><br />The DO has no force strong enough to pull the stopper out of the bottle, as Mat did.<br /><br />Simon wants to place this in Humor, but should, in fact, place it in the FAQ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-11 12:25:14
subject: <b>made my day</b>
body:
Great theory, very knowledgeable and insightful. I thought i heard it all but this is the finest. Who owuld have thought of the cooks. The Creator's most dangerous weapons under everyone's noses.


created: 2005-11-12 00:17:36
subject: <b>What about the seamstresses or the ladies' maids or body servants?</b>
body:
These people also seem to be scary tyrants.  It seems like the concept of &quot;do it this way or get fired&quot; isn't understood in WoT.  Could you work the apparent power of Chesa, Nerim, Essande and that b!tch in Tar Valon in New Spring who made Moiraine's clothes into your theory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-12 11:36:10
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
that actually made sense. and mickeydee- u r a very sad person lol.<br />Sammuel is toast.<br />hahahahahahah!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-13 08:44:58
subject: <b>Great!</b>
body:
I have added this to my favorite theories.  Great Sunday Morning reading. . . Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-14 00:40:32
subject: <b>I love Simon's disclaimer</b>
body:
It's too bad that we won't get any comments like the following:<br /><br />&quot;What are you, stupid?  Cooks aren't immune to the OP!  They're just cooks!  I think you need to go reread the series.&quot;<br /><br />Great theory, siddy.


created: 2005-11-14 01:32:48
subject: <b>just to annoy AgingComputer</b>
body:
Sidious! Are you stupid? Cooks aren't immune to the OP or tax levies! They're just cooks! (though Marin Al'Vere may have a nine-and-a-half-weeks thing going with Bran male-pattern-baldness Al'Vere) I think you need to go re-read the series.


created: 2005-11-14 06:32:15
subject: <b>I come here looking for a serious OP theory...</b>
body:
and I laugh so loud I wake my roomie up. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thanks Siddy!<br /><br />No, really, the guy needs to be shaken up once in a while. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-14 14:51:42
subject: <b>Light Friends</b>
body:
I wonder if this has a connection to Verin's secret mission.  Many speculate over the existence of Light Friends, and Verin's connection to them


created: 2005-11-15 16:42:49
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
No, really, how do you come up with this stuff?<br /><br />&quot;Sammael is toast.&quot;<br /><br />That's it, I'm never eating again, and to Ud&#251;n with basic human survival!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 09:36:42
subject: <b>Congrats</b>
body:
You have uncovered the secret 'Meatloaf Ajah'<br /><br />Their sign is a fist clutching two dough-pins.<br /><br />They will throw rotten eggs and tomatoes at the DO at TG.


created: 2005-11-16 17:23:50
subject: <b>Brilliant! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I just woke my sister up laughing! Good stuff, sid. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 00:37:01
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
Semirhage tells Graendal &#8220;If a kitchen girl puts a knife in your back, are you less dead than if you fall in a sha'je duel at Qal?&#8221;<br /><br />did ya mention tat one


created: 2006-07-24 13:14:16
subject: <b>Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
exellent theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alea iacta est<br /><br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-17 17:17:28
subject: <b>Oh, my God!</b>
body:
I&#8217;d write more on how funny and well done this theory is, but I just laughed so hard I have to go to the hospital for hernia surgery.<br /><br />ROFLMAO!!!!!<br />


created: 2009-01-25 05:28:27
subject: <b>It all makes sense</b>
body:
It's so cooky it actually makes sense. All these proverbs everyone keeps tossing eventually leads to a reference to cooks or kitchens. A tacit, subconscious recognition of their power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 09:21:56
subject: <b>Thanks for new thinking.</b>
body:
However, the Seals were made by both men and women AS. IMHO, Seals will not be used this time around for sealing the Bore.<br /><br />As for Moridin not wanting Rand killed in KoD, it is probably because of his very close connection with Rand, brought about by crossing Balefire in SL as thought by LTT, or it was the Staff wound to Rand`s side in tGH.<br /><br />I tend to agree with the 2nd.<br /><br />Moridin is very afraid of what will happen to himself before his own plans for TG are realized.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 09:25:36
subject: <b>You forget one thing...</b>
body:
I disagreed:<br /><br />Without Taim, it would have been sooo unlikely that there ever would be a substantional male-channeling fraction.<br /><br />And Rand alone is not enough to accomplish the wonderfull Saidar/Saidin feets all over and on a scale that will be needed.<br /><br />Therefore by introducing Taim (with the time and ability to search, TEST and train male channelers) the &quot;threat&quot; for the DO as you described of Saidin and Saidar mingeling is actually created.<br /><br />Even the benefit of gaining male dreadlords as now seems to be the case doesn't weigh up to the above, let alone the downside of having at least 3 times as many male channelers who walk in the light.<br /><br />Perhaps Taim was a DF all along and wasn't turned to the dark later in the storyline, but if so his objective would have been to get close to Rand, gain his trust, spy on him and execute FO/DO orders.<br /><br />Your hypothesis that Taim was introduced to keep Rand from Saidar contradicts itself, as i motivated above.<br /><br />Furthermore it hasn't kept Rand personally from Saidar, just look at the cleansing.<br />Also the creation of the black tower has resulted in many Saidin/Saidar alliences already and Taim letting the Red Ajah bond men isn't gonna help this either.<br /><br />Too many facts against your theory, me thinks.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-11-16 11:15:45
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
You gave me some good things to think about but overall I vote no.  I don't think that the DO can remember back all the way to the last turning of the great and awesome wheel.  I think his memories are like the Heroes.  In the World of Dreams Birgitte talked about how she could only remember back a few ages.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 14:56:15
subject: <b>Breaker</b>
body:
I thought the DO was out of the pattern, and therefore out of time so memories would not fade? Plus to compare the DO to the Heroes of the Horn is to compare a hamster's fart to a nuclear bomb. I know what i'd rather have go off in my face....


created: 2005-11-16 16:07:10
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
I don't think this theory has any merit.  You make so mistakes i can't list them all.<br /><br />First lanfears plan with rahvin, graendal, and sammael was to capture rand and turn him to the shadow.  At least that is what she says is her plan.<br /><br />Second the importance of the seals is in question.  Demandred wants to find the seals but Moridin doesn't seem to really care.  I don't think the 3 remaining seals are affecting the dark ones influence in the world signifcantly.<br /><br />Third, by Taims reaction he was shocked that people actually showed up to learn to channel.  I don't think Taim or the Dark One really thought Rands plan was going to work.  I think Taim simply showed up so the Dark One would have someone close to Rand.<br /><br />Finally your statements about Taim pushing Rand away from Saidar is absurd.  Because of Taim Saidin and Saidar are being used together that never would have happened without him.


created: 2005-11-16 16:19:37
subject: <b>some responses</b>
body:
First, thanks for all of the candor and feedback.<br /><br />To jofraz: the seals were made by both men and women, but only set by men. I think of it like making cuendillar. First you make the weave, then it is placed on the object. The placing was only done by men.<br />As for Moridin's intentions, I believe that Moridin's saving of Rand at SL stongly implies that he has a specific plan for Rand. Why wouldn't he have just killed Rand at SL himself, since Rand couldn't sense his TP? That way there would be no DR at the last battle, and the DO would surely reward Moridin. There has to be reason for allowing Rand to live, and Moridin knows what it is.<br /><br />To Meradin33: My take is that since Taim came to Caemlyn (Bashere said that he was certain Taim was there in tFoH) before Rand announced his amnesty, there was no real way for the DO to know about the Black Tower, or that Taim would lead it. However, he was placed next to Rand for some reason. And all of his actions seemed to be centered around Aes Sedai- at least those not related to his personal power. Therefore, I believe that he has orders to keep Rand from saidar. I believe that Taim was in a nice position to take advantage of controlling the BT. The failure of Taim does not reflect his intentions. As for the red ajah bonding, I don't think that any of Taim's men will be bonded. None of them bonded the sisters that came with Toveine. So Taim just confounds real relations and unity.<br /><br />To the_breaker: Thanks. As for the DO and memories, that was the only way I could think that the DO would allow Taim to give Rand a seal because he knew of the BT.


created: 2005-11-16 16:33:04
subject: <b>to the first punic war</b>
body:
As for Lanfear's statement, Rahvin did try to use balefire on Rand. As for allowing someone to kill Rand, I believe that Bel'al certainly tried.<br />You say that the remaining seals aren't affecting the DO's influence in the world significantly- given the importance of the seals to the story, I don't agree. When Moiraine thinks that the DO is leading trollocs physically in tEotW(or at least as a projection) she attributes it to the seals. The DO has been affecting weather to a great extent. There's men dying impossible deaths, rats everywhere, etc.<br />Your third point supports my theory. If Taim did not think that male channelers would show up, then all he needs to do is keep Rand from female channelers' influence.<br />As for your final point, I think that Taim has so far failed. However, his intentions are not ruled by his success or lack thereof. I think that his final actions in KoD will show that he makes an important character in terms of Rand's internal struggle- he doesn't accept alot of help from Aes Sedai. At most, he accepts Cadsuane because of what Min sees. But to what extent?


created: 2005-11-16 16:42:03
subject: <b>Good thoughts</b>
body:
This is as good an explanation as I have heard for all of the stuff going on between Taim, Ishmael, Rand, and the DO as well.  I've spent many hours trying to get my mind around what Moridin/Ishmael and the DO goals were concerning Rand.  Taim has always been kind of an enigma to me and until new info came out in the last book I was reluctant to throw him into to the DF category. I figured he was just self-centered, arrogant, greedy, and envious of Rand. Consequently I was also reluctant to consider him a major part of the Shadow's and particularly Ishmael's plotting.  To me this theory describes a circumstance which corresponds well to the type of calculated sacrifices often involved in a skilled chess game (or whatever it is that Moridin likes to play)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 17:20:09
subject: <b>Thanks!</b>
body:
There are definately some new and interesting ideas here. Thanks for sharing! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 19:33:28
subject: <b>Taim does not let chaos rule</b>
body:
Taim is not working for the DO, he is a soldier for the light, however his jealousy of Rand has made him want to kill him.  Maybe he still believes he is the Dragon?  Maybe he feels he is stronger than Rand, and deserves glory and power more than Rand?  Maybe he will eventually pledge his soul to the DO?  But to order his assasination; goes against the orders of not only the DO but also Nae'blis.  Only a fool would try and do such thing.


created: 2005-11-16 20:48:13
subject: <b>Seems to me ...</b>
body:
that the seals themselves are not important.  What I mean is, they are all going to break eventually, no matter what Rand or anyone does to them.  Remember the seal Elayne and Nynaeve carried to Salidar?  It shattered despite the fact it was carefully protected.  Neither Rand nor anyone else can prevent them from shattering, so the DO(or Morridin) has no reason to try and keep the seals from Rand.  The DO will break out at the appointed time, so giving it to Rand is meaningless.  Rand thinks he's recieved proff that Taim is on the side of good, and the Shadow loses nothing.


created: 2005-11-16 21:06:21
subject: <b>ashaman assassin</b>
body:
If the seals are not important, then why have darkdriends, even the forsaken (nae'blis included) deemed them necessary to capture?


created: 2005-11-17 05:23:16
subject: <b>To I bore a hole</b>
body:
-I think its very possible that Taim was a DF from before LoC and therefore directly of indirectly sent by the DO.<br /><br />-The DO thrives on/by chaos. So the opposite of unity. Therefore basically all the orders from the DO to the FO and downwards come down to disrupting and preventing a unified front which can resist the Dark.<br /><br />Saying Taims mission from the start was to keep Rand from Saidar contradicts the role taim has taken upon him from the start. Even answering the amnesty moves in this direction --&gt;the gathering of channeling men and the posibillity of saidin/saidar coorperation.<br /><br />However i do agree that now that Taim is in charge and a DF that he tries to drive as many ridges between Rand and Aes Sedai. Not specifically for keeping him from Saidar but just to prevent a unified front, thus serving chaos.<br /><br /><br />-The seals are sometimes important and sometimes not...<br />The fact is though that they break automatically (or by the DO's own work) in their due time.<br />So finding them is not needed for the DO to break free.<br />However if the unbreakable quiality has gone from the seals, people could shatter them and speed up the DO breaking free.<br /><br />Taim giving Rand a seal could've been done to gain trust but was actually unnescessary (sp?). Nobody expected it and things wouldn't have been different without it.<br />


created: 2005-11-17 11:36:27
subject: <b>Glory</b>
body:
Taim is a glory freak and willing to do anything for it. There is so much evidence that he is a DF that I would not be surprised that he actually is not. You guys and girls know what I'm talking about (RJ messing with our heads.)<br /><br />As to the theory. Although it is a good one, I have to respectfully disagree. I'd be writing all day to disprove it. But who knows we could always use another wrench in our spokes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fan of Rolan is my warder dont tick me off or you will endure the wrath of one of her 'moods'.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-17 15:52:14
subject: <b>to Meradin33</b>
body:
Thanks for the discussion(also, thanks to LogainReborn and Seriana Sedai)<br /><br />First, I do think that while the DO wants to cause disunity (he's the opposite of the Creator and creation), he can do so by roundabout methods. Before the cleansing, Rand had no shot at beating the DO. It was only through the use of saidar that Rand was able to cleanse saidin. I think it very likely, and reasonable, that the DO would send someone to keep that connection from being realized. It was only the fact that Rand had Nynaeve, someone from his own village that happened to have strength on forsaken level, that made it possible for saidin to be cleaned. Rand chose Nynaeve because he trusted her, and because she was the surest shot he had in terms of power. I think that a schism, born of pride and mistrust, between Rand and female channelers, would have sealed the fate of the forces of light. I find it interesting that Taim was in Caemlyn BEFORE the amnesty was announced. Therefore, I believe that he had a secret motive. My interpretation was potential strife between the male and female halves of the power. Taim, I thought, was genuinely amazed when men came to the farm to be channelers. Taim said that it was ta'veren work- so I thought that he hadn't expected it. He just saw an opportunity for power, a way to be even closer to and have more influence on Rand, and took it.<br /><br />As for the seals, there is a reason for physically having them. And they do not just break of their own accord. Someone else wrote on this subject in wotmania. Their theory, which I cannot do justice just now(and unfortunately do not know the author), concerned the fact that chaos destroys the seals. It had to do with Fel's message to Rand. If you look at every time a seal was destroyed, or found broken, there was a great deal of chaos- thus, Rand being the lord of chaos and letting him rule. Also, why do the forsaken want them found.<br />Additionally, I am working on another theory about the importance of the seals being broken under certain circumstances- look at Taim's (IMHO, sincere) look of surprise and horror when Rand is about to destroy the seal in front of him. I need some more data on how the dragon might be turned to the shadow but the DO doesn't win. Once I figure that part out, I've got some interesting material to share. Thanks for discussion.


created: 2005-11-17 23:20:58
subject: <b>makes sense</b>
body:
overall the theory made good sense, and the arguments against it have so far been rebutted (what an interesting word, rebutted) pretty well. all my arguments against those people were already made by i bore a hole, so i wont repeat them and bore everyone (haha, pun).<br /><br />i found it mildly humorous that no one has yet bothered to correct Dru Al Ferg and Stinker alTinker about taim's being a darkfriend. i guess nobody respects the opinions of people that dense. . .


created: 2005-11-18 04:05:34
subject: <b>Who is Taim anyway</b>
body:
Just a little theory i have concerning Taim... everyone is trying to work out which Forsaken he is... i personally go for the idea that he is a new Forsaken...<br /><br />It is mentioned several times that the Dark One will choose new Forsaken to replace those that have fallen and i believe Taim is one of these, as is Alviarin, i was reading a post which claimed the mark she recieved from Shadar Harran was some special mark to let trollocs and all that know that she was a darkfriend, this person claimed that the mark was different to the one the Forsaken had been given, which i spose would be fine if there was any evidence to suggest there are two types of marks... <br /><br />look at who knows tha phrase 'let the lord of Chaos rule' - it was a mission given by Mordrin to the Forsaken, how then did Taim find out - presumably he could have been told by someone but more likely he too is a forsaken - one of the new breed of forsaken rising up in the last battle.<br /><br />So in summury<br /><br />1 - Taim = Taim<br />2 - Taim = new breed forsaken<br />3 - Alvarin = new breed forsaken<br />4 - 'let the lord of chaos rule' = the mission of the forsaken - i dont know what exactly it means


created: 2005-11-20 02:03:51
subject: <b>&quot;This person&quot;...</b>
body:
...is Robert Jordan.  This is taken from Week Two of the Question of the Week on www.tor.com:<br /><br />Question: <br /><br />Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?<br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it. <br />


created: 2005-11-20 21:28:13
subject: <b>thanks</b>
body:
thanks, Nessosin for clearing that up with Halfdeadchicken. . .i mean, i would have been too lazy to look back at the qotw to find that statement. on the other hand, the guy with the issue did in fact spell &quot;summary&quot; as &quot;summury,&quot; so maybe it wasnt really necessary to correct him because he has already lost all credibility.<br /><br />also, Halfdeadchicken wrote-&quot;look at who knows tha phrase 'let the lord of Chaos rule' - it was a mission given by Mordrin to the Forsaken, how then did Taim find out - presumably he could have been told by someone but more likely he too is a forsaken - one of the new breed of forsaken rising up in the last battle.&quot;<br /><br />well, for one thing, the DO told this to demandred, who then told the rest of the forsaken. and that is consistent with the frequently hypothesized &quot;taim is a proxy of demandred&quot; thing. and also, it doiesnt make any sense that taim would be left alive by the originl forsaken. i mean, if you know this guy is only around to replace you when youre killed off, it seems logical to push the button on him in case he gets anxious for the position and decides to become a full blown forsaken sooner rather than later. of course it could be argued that moridin might not have told the others that there are two new forsaken, but based on the fact that he makes no effort to conceal aran-gar and osan-gar (which he could have done, if he wanted to have two hidden subordinates [being nae'blis and all]), he has no desire to conceal the new guys.<br /><br />i wrote too much. time for a nap.


created: 2005-11-27 06:10:53
subject: <b>Quick facts on TAIM</b>
body:
<br />1.  Taim is definitely a darkfriend.  When saidin was still tainted, a passage in one of the books says something to this effect: &quot;The oily-taint of saidin rolled off his oaths to the dark one.&quot; (or some such).  In KoD, this is reaffirmed for us again by Taim's reiteration of letting the LoC rule.<br /><br />No more Taim walks in the light crap.  None!  I don't want to hear it!  He's a darkfriend!  Kill him kill him kill him....<br /><br />2.  Taim is STRONG - his strength just a hair below Rand's when they both hold saidin in front of eachother.  This would put his strength ballpark to Moridin's, although that alone does not make him Moridin.<br /><br />3.  Taim, like all darkfriends as well as the Chosen, has his own motives as well as the DO's.  Semirhage defied Moridin in KoD by throwing a fireball at Rand;  Asmodean betrayed the DO himself.  Taim can do what he wants for his own reasons and the DO be damned, seal or no seal.  We can't assume its apart of the DO's planning.<br /><br />4.  Taim has above average education - knowledge of the old tongue to call himself M'Hael, new weaves, and the ability to administrate a large organization.  Speculatively, he may have architectural skills as well since no single architect is named as author of the BT (that I can remember).<br /><br />5.  LTT wanted Taim dead (shouting in Rand's head).  LTT knows the faces of various Forsaken (i.e., Lanfear, Semirhage).  Not going to speculate, but LTT could recognize something dangerous about Taim (either physically or in response to something he may have said), mad or not.<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-27 18:35:10
subject: <b>to the dancifool</b>
body:
I hope that you're not insinuating that Taim is one of the forsaken (proxy, not just a newly-raised). His power is near to that of Moridin. So is Aginor. Perhaps even Logain. Moridin should be equal to LTT, or as equal as is possible. Taim has probably been trained by one of the forsaken for the &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; comment. However, he's not a forsaken, that evidence was all subterfuge.<br />As for forsaken defying the DO, I doubt that a known DF like Taim could give Rand a seal without some major repercussions. Some of the others have been punished. Semirhage we have not yet seen, nor do we know her full plan. Taim would have had to have been punished for giving up he seal if it was not part of the DO's plan.


created: 2005-11-29 00:31:33
subject:
<b>No, I'm not saying he is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<br />I'm not saying Taim is one of the Forsaken, even if he is close in strength to Rand.  I suppose an argument could be presented that he is, but I'm not handy enough with the quotes to make that argument, so I'm not going to.  I honestly don't know.<br /><br />Asmodean was punished for betraying the DO.  Perhaps Taim's punishment will be due after all.  It could be delayed due to temporary usefulness - which is something Asmodean didn't have as Rand's prisoner.  Of course that is just speculation, just as much as the seal was part of the DO's plan.  In either possibility, RJ will just have to reveal more in the next book for us to really know.<br /><br />As a side comment, the problem with the seal thing being part of the DO's master plan is that the motive isn't strong - there could be other ways or tributes that could have been given to get close to Rand.  If a stronger motive could be provided, this part of the theory would be more plausible.  It is a difficult position to defend because everything we know about the DO is throw the PoV of others (i.e., the Forsaken et. al.) or SH.  We don't really have any quotes or glaring comments that tell us for certain &quot;This or that&quot; is the dark one's plan.  I'm not saying you can hold the position, its just an uphill road in trying to take it.  But I suppose the collective statements of enough characters could be gathered to make a substantial case about the DO's motives or plans.  It's just a lot of work.<br />


created: 2006-01-03 09:51:05
subject: <b>Black Tower</b>
body:
Taim was tasked with helping Rand and growing the Black Tower 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule'. Rand was creating a situation that could cause a second breaking. The difference is nobody realise he was going to cleanse the male source. SO the plan went wrong. Having 500 mad males would have obviously hurt Rands chances.<br /><br />Secondly Taim was afraid when Rand nearly broke all the seals he had in one go, at their first meeting. It is one thing to worship the Dark Lord but quite another for him to turn up for your party and lay waste to the world! <br /><br />Third, Rand asked Taim how he had survived 15 years without the madness. That is because he is sheltered from the taint by the DOne. Taim was creating (is) DreadLords.<br /><br />Look even is Rand dies now, the war will go on, they will still need DreadLords, Forsaken. They still have to fight the Nations of the world, it is just without Rand there can be no final victory.


created: 2006-01-05 16:03:04
subject: <b>to muppetts</b>
body:
Again, Bashere said that Taim was in Caemlyn BEFORE Rand announced the amnesty and the Black Tower. He had the seal as a goodwill present since he didn't know he was already to be pardoned.<br />Secondly, my take on Taim's reaction to Rand about to break a seal as one that reflects his mission- namely, that the purpose of the seal was to be kept whole until the DO's mission had matured. I don't believe that there is a DF who doesn't want the DO free. Maybe someone like Asmodean.<br />Your third point I can see. I personally think that the BT wasn't the original plan, but that Taim's mission required a Dreadlord-like person close to Rand, fully trained and able.<br />Your final thought- then why have there been orders not to kill Rand. I think that there is more to it than you say. Why not just kill Rand and checkmate. I see something deeper.


created: 2006-12-18 18:46:44
subject: <b>right......</b>
body:
&quot;1. Taim is definitely a darkfriend. When saidin was still tainted, a passage in one of the books says something to this effect: &quot;The oily-taint of saidin rolled off his oaths to the dark one.&quot; (or some such). In KoD, this is reaffirmed for us again by Taim's reiteration of letting the LoC rule.&quot;<br /><br />No. This is not in any of the books when it comes to Taim. Quote it or shut it. Thus, the second part is no &quot;reaffirmation&quot; at all, just 99% positive evidence for being a darkfirned. What's the 1%? In my mind, 1% chance that he could be a Demandred lackey who went rogue when the source got cleansed, and is now trying to gather as much power for himself as he can. 99% positive he's making new evil male Aes Sedai (aka Dreadlords) though.<br /><br />He is NOT, repeat NOT, a forsaken. They are all accounted for except Demandred, and RJ has specifically stated many times that Taim =/= Demandred. VERY specifically.


created: 2009-05-24 14:21:06
subject: <b>I still think</b>
body:
Taim = Be'lal.  Given RJ's answer re: the possibility of the DO reincarnating a soul whose body had been killed by balefire, has Be'lal been convincingly accounted for in current Randland?  No sound argument has been presented IMO, but am open to considering any that get presented.


created: 2005-11-21 10:05:13
subject: <b>Losses</b>
body:
One thing you need to take into account is the number Rand lost when fighting wars with the seanchan or the shadow. I have not read Kod but im guessin he used the Asha'man in a couple scraps. How many mite have died?<br /><br />As for the rest i have to agree it looks pretty good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 10:31:53
subject: <b>re: Asha'man Joey's comment</b>
body:
Rand lost about 8 or 9 Asha'man when he fought the Seanchan in PoD.  He had lost 7 or maybe it was 8 (1 Dedicated and the rest Soldiers) before the big battle with the Seanchan.  During the big battle Rand went crazy and I know he killed Adley and I think some of the other Asha'man were killed throughout the day.


created: 2005-11-21 14:06:52
subject: <b>Darkfriends</b>
body:
Interesting.  I agree.  One question though.<br /><br />Why do you think that at least 100 of the 350 left at the BT are darkfriends?  <br /><br />I assume that you believe that the 41 who have been awarded the dragon are DF.<br /><br />Why 59 others?  And if you're using percentages of some sort, how many others do you believe are in Illian and Arad Domon?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taer<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 14:16:16
subject: <b>re: Taer's comment</b>
body:
I meant that there are 100 Asha'man who are either Darkfriends OR loyal to Taim.  They aren't all necessarily Darkfriends.  They did laugh at Taim's comment about &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;.  Only Darkfriends would get that joke.  Although, maybe some of the men were just laughing because everyone else was. So at best we know at least 100 of the men are loyal to Taim, and probably a good portion of those (possibly all) are Darkfriends.


created: 2005-11-21 16:08:36
subject: <b>47 to the rebels</b>
body:
Don't forget that, the way I read the last chapter, that the rebels had already bonded their 47 men.<br /><br />We don't know if any of these were dark friends; I consider it possible that some might be.<br /><br />But this might reduce the number in the BT to 300.<br /><br />On the other hand, these estimates are loose enough that there Still might be as many as 350 at the BT.<br /><br />good post.   Figures are probably as close as it is possible to know at the moment<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-21 16:59:42
subject: <b>Pevara</b>
body:
In the Epilogue, Pevara describes 200 men with Taim in the &quot;throne room.&quot;  I'll have to reread to find out if every one is described as having the sword and the Dragon pins, but this throws estimates a little off.  200 DFs with Taim at the BT changes things.


created: 2005-11-21 18:08:56
subject: <b>re: Aging Computer's comments</b>
body:
Logain reports to Rand:<br /><br />In KoD - News for the Dragon - <i>&quot;One thing pleased him, though: that I didn't take any of his cronies.  That was plain on his face....There are forty-one of those now, by the way.  He's given over a dozen men the Dragon pin in the past few days, and he has above fifty more in his special classes, most of them men recruited just lately...&quot;</i><br /><br />This happened on April 6th.  Pevara meets with Taim sometime after this, but we're not sure exactly which day.  When the chronology website is uncertain of the day of an event, a &quot;?&quot; appears before the summary.  We don't know for sure what day the Pevara point-of-view happens on.  The chronology author guesses April 27th because that is the same day as we see Tuon arrive in Ebou Dar.  But there's no certainty these events happened on the same day or even on the 27th.  <br /><br />In KoD - Epilogue - &lt;i&gt;&quot;Perhaps a hundred men in black coats were standing to either side of the room.  Every man she could see wore the sword and the dragon...&quot;<br /><br />As you've said, this seems to suggest Taim has roughly 200 men with the Sword and Dragon with him.  <br /><br />I chose to base my estimates of the Black Tower's numbers off of the data we received on April 6th because I felt it was more accurate for a couple of reasons.  First, Pevara only gives us an estimate to the number of men on each side of the room.  She didn't actually have time to count them all, but Logain gives us an exact number.  Second, we're not sure what day the Pevara Point of View happens on and therefore it makes it impossible to base numbers off of.  Third, Logain says Taim has another 50+ men in his special classes who don't wear the Sword and Dragon.  So Taim should only have about 100 men possibly with the Dragon and Sword.  There's a discrepancy of about 100 men between Logain's report and Pevara's point of view.<br /><br />I felt it more accurate to base my numbers off of Logain's report.  My theory only claims the number of Asha'man up to April 6th.  After April 6th we don't have enough information to accurately say.


created: 2005-11-21 22:34:25
subject: <b>Uncertainty</b>
body:
New_name said &quot;In KoD - Epilogue - &lt;i&gt;&quot;Perhaps a hundred men in black coats were standing to either side of the room. Every man she could see wore the sword and the dragon...&quot;<br /><br />As you've said, this seems to suggest Taim has roughly 200 men with the Sword and Dragon with him.&quot;<br /><br />This could be interpreted in another way. It might, as you say, mean that there are 200 asha'man, or it could mean that there are 100 asha'man. It all depends on how you place the emphasis. Had it said &quot;to EACH side&quot;, I would accept 200 asha'man, but as it is written, it could mean that a total of 100 stood to the sides.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-22 00:13:32
subject: <b>I believe the number is closer to 100</b>
body:
If Taim had 200 out of the 350 men in the BT on his side then the BT would be in a very bleak condition, indeed.  It probably still is.  To me, one of the main advantages that Taim might see in allowing the Reds to bond Asha'man is that it removes men from the BT that aren't loyal to him.  That would not be nearly as necessary if Taim had 60% of the remaining BT loyal to him.<br /><br />Second, it is doubtful that 30% of the BT are DFs.  A ratio of 100/700 works out to around 14% which seems to be consistent with the BA numbers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-22 15:26:31
subject: <b>Good one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Nice analysis.. I voted yes. I think you've made the most accurate assessment possible with the information given. My real problem is that I'm not sure if Jordan even knows his own numbers, or if he made it deliberately vague.<br /><br />You might be way off, but there's no way a more accurate list can be made. I personally think the number is about 1,000 because of the huge Ash'aman audience at the end of KoD, but that's just me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Well done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-23 01:34:03
subject: <b>2 rivers men</b>
body:
How many men did Taim scoop up in the Two Rivers, and how many are loyal to  Taim or part of his special sqaud? This may bring the numbers up a bit.


created: 2005-11-23 15:05:38
subject: <b>re: 2 rivers men</b>
body:
Taim scooped up the men in the two rivers over a book ago.  I forget if it was CoT or before that.  In any case, it is likely that the 2 rivers men would be loyal to Rand and not Taim.<br /><br />We saw Sam'l al'Seen in the KoD epilogue.  He is from the two rivers.  He is hanging out with 2 other men as they stand guard at one of the entrances to the Black Tower.  When the Murandian returns through his gateway, he laughs and tells Pevara that Mazrim Taim &quot;doesn't associate with the likes of me&quot;.   <br /><br />It seems obvious then that Taim isn't associating with the three at the gate.  I believe it would be the same with the other 2 rivers men/boys/grandfather.<br /><br />Anyway, since the 2 rivers men were gathered up before Logain reports to Rand their numbers were already included in my calculations.


created: 2005-11-24 08:11:22
subject: <b>Number of AS with Taim</b>
body:
This quote: <br /><br />&quot;In KoD - Epilogue - &lt;i&gt;&quot;Perhaps a hundred men in black coats were standing to either side of the room. Every man she could see wore the sword and the dragon...&quot;<br /><br />..means there are a 100 in total.<br />I'm no native english speaker so i can't back it up with a fully correct formulated grammatical analysys of the sentence but:<br /><br />The word 'to' is the key here i think. The word &quot;to&quot; says something about where those 100 men stand.<br />I think if the word had been &quot;at&quot; than it would've meant that the number of 100 would be present on both sides.<br />


created: 2005-12-11 22:41:17
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
I read it to think that Taim has 100.<br /><br />One thought, everyone on the site has been wondering when we would see the circle of Mydrall and Black Ajah to force a person to change to a dark friend.  <br />Does anyone else find it strange that Taim has been able to mass darkfriend Asha'man the way he has?  It seems that finding out a darkfriend, or if someone would become one is something that would be rather sublte.  It would take time, and prodding questions...  maybe it could be detected somehow, but then why the need for special classes?  <br />I think that Taims classes involve &quot;changing&quot; an Asha'man in a dreadlord.  And the first part of that would be making them dark.  Lets assume that the ritual, however effective takes a serious amount of time or energy.  Lets assume that it isn't easy, lets say that.  Assuming that Myadrall numbers are not an issue, then the thing slowing Taim would be lack of Black ajah.  More black Ajah would be more circles going at once.  <br />So lets assume at first, he was ferreting out dark Asha'man on his own, trusting only the select dark few he found that he could trust.<br />However, the bonded Aes Sedei captured in the orginal attack would have most likely given him access to some.  This would explain the spike in number of people attending classes.  Remember, Bondeing the Aes Sedei was Taims order.  None of us know the limits of what the male bond can &quot;force&quot; Aes Sedei do.  <br />The question becomes, what happened that suddennly Taim was able to start putting 50 males in classes? What has occured that suddenly Taim can start turning so many?<br /><br />At the end of KOD we see Taim happy to allow Aes Sedei to bond his faithful.  We have seen males channelers bonded by females are far less subordinate, and even seem able to control their Aes Sedei to some degree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 21:10:34
subject: <b>Hmph...I disagree. It's more than that.</b>
body:
There is a quote of Rand's in KoD that says that:  &quot;Taim built the Black Tower 'till it nearly matches the White Tower for numbers, and it grows every day.&quot; Ch 18, News for the Dragon<br /><br />So, that's two contradictory sources...and I think Rand would know how many men he has (unless Taim has kept some from him, in which case the number would be LARGER)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-10 10:09:49
subject: <b>Increased recruiting</b>
body:
As you stated in your theory we would have an increased rate of recruiting when the numbers rise. Here's a quick calculation:<br /><br />Say we have an average of 3 new recruits per day when we have 448 members of the BT. That is an increase of 0.0067% of the total per day. If this stays constant we can figure out how many members we have each day and how many new recruits per day are gathered. I made a quick Excel calculation where the constant increase is 0.0067% per day. <br /><br />That gives us 522.3290 members of the BT Feb 2 and an increase of 3.4977 recruits per day at that stage.<br /><br />On Apr 6 we have 743,9883 members and 4.9821 new recruits per day.<br /><br />So to conclude:<br />Date - members - recruits/day<br />January 20th - 448 - 3<br />February 12th - ~522 - ~3.5<br />April 6th - ~744 - ~5<br /><br />What I have not, and indeed can not, calculated is an increase of effectiveness when recruiting and (perhaps) the lack of places to recruit because they have already been looked through by other recruiting parties.<br /><br />The law of decreasing margins would probably also apply, but we cannot know when it will happen.<br /><br />I would like to note that you approximated the recruits/day very well at feb 12th. =) That is indeed the day that is closest to 3.5/day.<br /><br />This post was not made to put you down or anything, just refining your calculations.<br />


created: 2007-07-10 10:15:42
subject: <b>addition</b>
body:
Also, if we suppose that the percentage division between the ranks you posted are correct, at april 6th we get:<br /><br />535 Soldiers<br />161 Dedicated<br />48 Asha'man


created: 2007-07-16 13:43:56
subject: <b>Additions</b>
body:
The last day of KoD is 27th of april<br />We would then have a number of 856 members of the BT.<br />55 Asha'man<br />185 Dedicated<br />615 Soldiers<br />(one loss due to rounding down, the DO is present even in math!)


created: 2007-07-16 13:54:41
subject: <b>Additions again</b>
body:
1000 members will be broken may 21th.<br />2000 sept 2nd<br />3000 nov 1st<br />4000 dec 15th<br />5000 jan 17th<br />10000 apr 30th<br /><br />I suspect the law of decreasing margins will take effect before that, or Tarmon Gaidon. =)


created: 2005-11-21 09:02:30
subject: <b>Like your MB post</b>
body:
I thought is was well done, and if you made any changes, I didn`t catch any.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 11:36:53
subject: <b>re: Jofraz's comment</b>
body:
I did change some of it, but mostly just wording here or there a little.  The major change I added was I included the section on &quot;Counter Evidence&quot;.


created: 2005-11-21 13:29:59
subject: <b>Good one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
It gets a yes from me...and validates my own thoughts on the matter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-22 04:48:12
subject: <b>Grandal??</b>
body:
<br />I would of liked to see some more evidence of what would make Graendal responsible for the chaos in Bandar Eban.  This might be determined by process of elimination?  It does seem likely since Semirhage is captured, Mesanaa is working with the Tower, Demandrad -- or at least people say -- is supposedly with the Sea Folk, and Aran'Gar is with the rebel Aes Sedai, or was just leaving.<br /><br />Osan'gar's presence is unaccounted for in KoD at the Forsaken meeting....  Hmm.<br /><br />Irregardless of whoever is making a mess of Bandar Eban, that would not have any bearing on what Ituralde's plans were; the theory stands.<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-22 07:29:52
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
It's an interesting plan, and reminds me of something I read about World War 2. According to the book, and I have no reason to doubt it, after the Landing in Normandy, the Allies had pretty much the entire field of France to themselves. The Axis were in disarray, chaotic retreat, had lost courage, etc... So the Allies decided to &quot;race&quot; to Berlin, if the Reds (communists) are first, they win, otherwise, Kapitalism wins (that was the concern: the allies did not want a communist Germany). So they begin the &quot;race&quot;, sending troops as far as they can as fast as they can, something that was made easy by lack of German resistance. Soon the troops outrun the supplie trains; the tanks and jeeps drive until they are out of petrol (or whatever they used as fuel), after which they wait until someone comes along who has a jerrycan of fuel, which they use, drive until out of fuel, and the whole thing happens again. You can see where this lead, no? The Germans slowly began to regroup, at the Siegfried line and soon the Allies found themselves out of petrol, under fire by the enemy! About this time, the allies had almost reached the Siegfied line, and all supplies had to come from Omaha and the other beachheads and harbors the allies had liberated. (Don't think that they had already liberated Antwerp at the time, but I might be mestaken). Sound familiar to you? The only difference is that the Allies won, and weren't surrounded, but it's the same problem: hunt an enemy as fast as you can, until your supplies can't reach you anymore, and then the enemy attacks you.


created: 2005-11-22 19:05:31
subject: <b>re: Dancing fool's comments</b>
body:
You asked about more evidence for Graenal responsible for the chaos in Bandar Eban.<br /><br />From your post, it looks like you aren't sure if she is even in Arad Doman.  So let me refresh your memory.  We have several points of view that show Graendal is in Ebou Dar.  Sammael, Asmodean, Graendal herself, and others mention that Graendal is located in Arad Doman.<br /><br />The Dark One has ordered there to be more chaos spread all over the world.  Graendal either murdered or kidnapped the King in Arad Doman.  The King's kidnapping has caused great confusion among the merchants and nobles in Arad Doman.  They were fighting amongst themselves due to Graendal's influence and work.  <br /><br />None of the other forsaken has placed themselves in Arad Doman that we know of.  Mesanna is in the Tower.  Aran'gar was with the rebel AS.  Osan'gar, Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal, and Asmodean are dead.  Semirhage was in control of Seanchan.  The unknowns are Moghedien, Cyndane, Moridin, and Demandred.  Usually the forsaken do not tread on each other's places so there's no evidence that any of the unknown forsaken did the work in Arad Doman.<br /><br />Osan'gar was not at the forsaken meeting because he's dead.  He was killed at the cleansing of Saidin.  He was the Asha'man Dashiva.


created: 2006-02-02 02:42:21
subject: <b>Not sure the Seanchan have accurate intelligence.</b>
body:
While I agree with you that Rand could have sent 150,000 men to Arad Doman, the most Ituralde could have gathered is 50,000. The country was in anarchy. <br /><br />The Seanchan may have reported to Suroth that they were pinned down by armies of 100 and 200 thousand because the ability to transport Rand's men via gateway made them seem more numerous then they were.


created: 2006-03-20 21:41:30
subject: <b>Surrounding the Seanchan</b>
body:
I have a question &quot;is the army that Ituralde has surrounded the bulk of the Seanchan army or are they just a small portion of it?&quot; Its just that at the end of KOD Suroth doesn't seem too disturbed that the army is surrounded or that they will be defeated. If that was the bulk of the Seanchan army don't you think all the Seanchan nobles would be a little bit nervous as to their military stability in Ebou Dar.


created: 2006-03-26 09:29:52
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree. I don't think Iturdale had 200 000 men in the mountains. That's way too much. Either the Seanchan intelligence was incorrect, or Iturdale was reinforced in the mountains as well.


created: 2006-04-16 15:30:01
subject: <b>Re: Surrounding the Seanchan</b>
body:
The Seanchan force that was sent to deal with Ituralde is not the main contingent of their forces.  They have the most number of soldiers massing on the Illian/Altara border for a clash with Rand's forces there.<br /><br />Also, in speaking to Suroth, General Galgan mentions that it wasn't safe yet to strip Tarabon of every soldier to hunt down Ituralde.  So it is obvious that they left a sizeable garrison of men spread across the countryside to maintain order.  The same goes for Amador and Altara (verified from Mat's, Tuon's, and General Karede's points of view in KoD) .<br /><br />The Seanchan can field somewhere in the vacinity of 800,000 or more men.  But no less than 800K.


created: 2006-11-14 11:00:05
subject: <b>Excellent theory.</b>
body:
A big thumbs-up from me on this one.  Very well put together.<br /><br />I suppose this would also explain why Elayne was sensing Rand flitting between the south-west and the east too, inspecting and organising the troops...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">.<br /><br />Never underestimate the power of carefully worded nonsense.<br /><br />.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-18 18:58:37
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
Yes, this makes a lot more sense. I've only read KoD once, but i'd been wondering where Rodel got those 300-400k troops from.<br /><br />I'm glad the action is finally shifting back to Tarabon and Arad Domon. It's been neglected for so long, almost entirely besides Tanchico since the Great Hunt, although there was so much buildup about the Dragonsworn bands, Graendal, and the 2 countries fighting over the Almoth Plain early. Plus, I'm ready to see Graendal (sp) go DOWN!!!!!!!<br /><br />Oh, and remember that this army is gonna balloon very quickly, as per rand's instructions for Logain to the Sea Folk that they would need to supply &quot;a million or more&quot; men or something like that.<br /><br />Arad Domon is pretty far from Shayol Ghul, but I guess it's far from Tar Valon too, which he wants to avoid. He can always Travel.


created: 2005-11-24 06:13:16
subject: <b>100% agree - this is</b>
body:
a job well done. Thanks for the map. I'll have to hunt out WH and have another read with the map in hand.


created: 2005-11-24 12:48:13
subject: <b>the 'wind'</b>
body:
if group c was to the south as you suggest then wouldn't they have been affected by the wind if so there proberly would have been some mention of them looking windswept in the final few passages<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-24 15:01:52
subject:
<b>I'm really impressed by the map <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Thanks Skeeve! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-24 16:36:42
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Nicely worked out, and I loved the map. I have some issues though ...<br /><br />- the Cleansing took most of the day. What are the chances that the Forsaken remained in the same vicinity for perhaps 6 to 12 hours while saidin was Cleansed? Isn't it more likely they all ended up far from where they initially began. Take Demandred and Cyndane for instance, who both speak of multiple gateways. Cyndane and Graendal also gave the appearance that they had been walking around for some time in the forests.<br /><br />- Semirhage was apparently there. Is there any clue as to where she might have been based on some clues in the text?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-24 16:49:05
subject: <b>2 sidious</b>
body:
You're right about moving and not staying in one position. But, I would guess that once the single battle between a Forsaken and a Group began, they wouldn't have time to make a gateway. I would think, that they were approximately in the same position, once they started to fight. Besides, from the book we saw that Demandred made just one gateway, and Cyndane - just three. We don't know about the rest, though.<br /><br />Apparently, the battle itself was not that long. Here are some clues about it:<br /><br />&quot; Moghedien was not sure why she had remained this long. There could not be more than two hours of daylight left, and the forest was quiet. Except for the key, she could not feel saidar being channeled anywhere. That was not to say that someone was not using small amounts somewhere, but nothing like the fury that had raged earlier. The battle was over, the other Chosen dead or flying in defeat.&quot;<br /><br />&quot; There had not been an attack on the hilltop for some time, and in fact, it seemed the only active channeling she could sense was what Nynaeve and the boy were doing.&quot;<br /><br />It's hard to say how much time elapsed between the beginning of the battle and those quote. But we can assume it was several hours. If it was less, they would not call it just &quot;quite&quot; and be on the kind of relaxed state, it would be more like &quot;waiting for another attack&quot; and &quot;be prepared&quot; state. Wouldn't you agree?


created: 2005-11-28 13:53:37
subject: <b>Lots of assumptions</b>
body:
Glad you did this.  I do think there are too many assumptions to be as specific as you were with some of the groups.


created: 2005-11-28 15:09:15
subject: <b>nice map!</b>
body:
As Sidious said...from RJ we know that Semirhage was there someplace, but we don't know if she engaged or not (a big oversight on his part to not include a POV from her or someone confronting her). Anyway, assuming your map is correct, it looks like Semi was likely in the northeast or northwest. It would also fit that she was in the southwest between Demandred and Moghedien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-11-28 16:53:32
subject: <b>2 kcf</b>
body:
I agree with the north assesment. The only definite clue is the Aran'gar position - whereever Semirhage was she was not near Aran'gar.<br /><br />The only problem with Semirhage is that it seems nobody was fighting her. Everyone was busy. And I couldn't beleive that cover fire from Group B was enough to drive her off.<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-30 12:51:48
subject: <b>About Semirhage ...</b>
body:
The only thing I can think of is that she was the one who bombarded Cadsuane's shield with lightning very early in the battle.  It does not appear that Demandred, Cyndane, Osan'gar, or Moggy were responsible for that, since we got PoVs from all of them, and none thought about sending the lightning.  That leaves Graendal, Aran'gar, and Semirhage, and we know Graendal &amp; Aran'gar were (at least later) occupied by the groups you indicated.  Leaving Semirhage as a good candidate for the lighting, I think.<br /><br />I realize that all of the Forsaken might have attacked the shield at one time or another, but I was trying to find some evidence of Semirhage, and that's the best I could come up with.<br /><br />Nice theory, btw.  The map was very helpful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-09 11:19:43
subject: <b>Osan'gars position??</b>
body:
Good job I think, however, I believe you're using Osan'gar's position at the end of the battle<br /><br />&#8220;Not as many as he [Osan&#8217;gar] had expected. One woman was making a slow circuit around the crest, peering into the trees, but everyone else was still, Narishma sitting with Callandor glowing in his hands and a woman's head on his knee. There were two other women that Osan'gar could see, one kneeling over the other&#8221;WH, Chapter 35.<br /><br />If you recall...&quot;one kneeling over the other..&quot; That's when Nynaeve passed out, after Rand almost burnt her out.  Could be mistaken though.


created: 2005-11-28 17:51:33
subject: <b>SWEET</b>
body:
Fraggle rock is a sweet show.<br />RJ must be a fraggle fan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-29 00:14:18
subject: <b>Very interesting</b>
body:
Fraggle Rock used to be one of my favorite shows when I was about 4, I believe. Nowadays I can remember nothing other than it was a TV show and it was made with puppets. So I have no clue if your theory holds water.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-29 16:34:50
subject:
<b>I love fraggles. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
down in Fraggle Rock....  <br />down in Fraggle Rock...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Siddy's Green<br /><font color="gray">*wears the bowtie*</font><br /><br /><font color="teal"><i>Obama - &quot;Vote for me, I'm Barack Obama&quot;<br />McCain - &quot;Vote for me, I'm not Barack Obama&quot;</i></font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-30 05:09:12
subject: <b>This made me smile!</b>
body:
What a great theory! I love every part of it. Sigh... I miss Fraggle Rock. What if those constructions the Doozers make (aren't they like sugar sticks or something?) were kind of like buildings made with the One Power. I may have missed it, but did you have anything in your theory about the human guy and the big dog? Is that big dog kind of like Narg or what?


created: 2005-11-30 22:53:02
subject: <b>Answering Fraggle ?s</b>
body:
Fraggle Rock was a Jim Henson(creator of Kermit, Fozzy, Gonzo, Ms. Piggy, etc.) muppet show broadcast all over the world in the mid-80s, I think on HBO.  They live behind a hole in the wall of an old man's home and interact with his dog, little builders called doozers, and giant fraggle types called gorgs.  The first season was recently released on DVD and its awesome.  By the way, doozer sticks are made with radishes that the Gorgs grow and the Doozers mine and sweeten up a bit.  I know way too much about Fraggles.


created: 2005-12-03 08:05:51
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
I loved the Fraggles when I was young, even though I don't remember much of it anymore. I'll have to watch it again now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Fire! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-19 11:55:51
subject: <b>You've found it!</b>
body:
<i>down in Fraggle Rock....<br />down in Fraggle Rock...</i><br /><br />You've found the tinker's song!


created: 2005-11-30 08:12:02
subject: <b>Restorer</b>
body:
Could it be Nynaeve will re-discover either on her own or from info from Semi Healing that qualifies as &quot;restoration&quot; from the AoL. Being that the forsaken call present day 3-weave healing as rushed battle field work.


created: 2005-11-30 13:31:21
subject: <b>not like amputation</b>
body:
Stilling is not like amputation, I think it is more like a severed nerve, you still have the hand, but you cannot make it do anything.


created: 2005-11-30 14:42:46
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Will Semi offer to buy her freedom by restoring his hand, and teching Nyneave the weaves...now that's a dilemma with horns...


created: 2005-11-30 20:19:51
subject: <b>Healing stilling repairs what was broken. A hand is lost altogether.</b>
body:
&quot;Jordan doesn't waste space&quot;?!<br /><br />I think you'll find several WoT fans, an increasing number after every one of the past few books, in fact, will disagree with you there.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It's a good catch, but I don't think Rand will regrow his hand.  Heroes need some tragedy.  Beren won eternal renown and the hand of the fairest elf maiden in history, but lost his own.  Frodo saved the world, but lost his finger.<br /><br />I think genetic regeneration is beyond the ability of Randland magic, even Semirhage's.


created: 2005-11-30 22:14:06
subject: <b>Kinda Stretchin...</b>
body:
I don't know man, that sounds great in theory, but I don't know if RJ is really that predictable. Know what I mean?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder/Husband to Devana Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br />Drinkin' homey to Matt Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of all Wolfhounds!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Howl at the moon wit me!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Aaaoowwwoooooooh!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 00:17:37
subject: <b>'waste space'</b>
body:
Jordan does not waste space...unless of course it's a chapter about Elayne, and then we must endure lengthy descriptions of everything that eats that is most definitely not foreshadowing or moving the plot forward.<br /><br />I like your theory though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Do androids dream of electric Grolm?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 13:11:38
subject: <b>His hands crossed</b>
body:
I'm at work right now.. heh, heh ... so I don't have any of the books handy, so I can't provide any quotes. However, I'm pretty sure that in the visions regarding Rand's death he is described as lying on a funeral pyre with his hands - plural - crossed. This would seem to indicate that his severed hand will indeed be Healed.<br />


created: 2005-12-01 13:37:43
subject: <b>Could be possible</b>
body:
I was reading the Big White Book yesterday and it mentions in the &quot;Age of Legends&quot; section near the start (sorry, not my book so I can't get the page number now) that says that the only reason people died in the Age of Legends was because of old age because their restorers could heal ANYTHING instantly short of death...Semi being one of the greatest (if not the greatest) restorer of all time would know how to do this, and after all, it's not the first time Nynaeve has gotten info outta a Forsaken...just have to find another A'dam somewhere...


created: 2005-12-01 15:22:40
subject: <b>hmmmmmmmm</b>
body:
if this does happen then i would say that it VASTLY resembles harry potter. After all, in book 4, the goblet of fire, wormtail looses a hand and gets a new one from Voldy, so.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 15:51:21
subject: <b>I hope Nynaeve finds a way</b>
body:
She healed stilling, she can do this. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I like your commment about Jordan. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> There was a post on the WMB recently that had one <b>long</b> paragraph just about what Elayne and Aviendha were eating...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 21:31:22
subject: <b>Nice Catch</b>
body:
Great detective work here, I think. I think its intuitively obvious that this will be the case. Its too perfect for it not to be foreshadowing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 21:34:54
subject: <b>I read that very passage today</b>
body:
and thought exactly the same thing.  Time will tell.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-02 00:22:13
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
It is a nice idea but I dont think so. The first time Rand met Min, she told him her viewings of him she does mention his hand: <br />&quot;She waited then, still grinning, until he<br />finally cleared his throat and asked.<br />&quot;What about me?&quot; Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. &quot;The same kind of things<br />as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you<br />pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral<br />bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood -&quot;&quot; (on page 139).<br />It is true that she also mentions Mat's dagger and he did get rid of it, but it is unlikely that the One Power could recreat burned off body parts<br />


created: 2005-12-02 08:41:57
subject: <b>I found the quote</b>
body:
ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202 <br /><br />Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. <br /><br />Here's the quote I refered to in an earlier post. The quote is of Egwene's true dream regarding Rand's death. It clearly refers to his hands - plural - being crossed. In fact, they're crossed on his chest. If he only had one hand, I think she would have noticed.<br /><br />Now, some will say that it's not really Rand's body that she sees in the dream .. the whole business about it being a &quot;paper puppet&quot;. This is probably true, but if Rand wants to convincingly fake his death, the duplicate body can't have a dead give away clue that it's fake. I think the false body having two hands while Rand only has one would count as a dead give away.<br /><br />Or, then again, all this could be wrong.


created: 2005-12-06 12:24:41
subject: <b>red herring?</b>
body:
Let's not forget that one of Min's earliest viewings of Elayne was of a severed hand.  <br /><br />&quot;One of the things she [Min] said she saw looking at me [Elayne] was a severed hand.  Not mine.&quot;  -GH, ch 24<br /><br />So now both Nyneave and Elayne have bloody hands in their future.  And they're both close to Rand, our favorite amputee.  Two heads are better than one.  They also spent lots of time studying together in Salidar, re-learning what was lost.  We could recap that with our newest Forsaken captive.<br /><br />-Ilka


created: 2005-12-07 11:06:41
subject: <b>where</b>
body:
does nyn have a severed hand in her future?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-30 00:43:57
subject: <b>cool!</b>
body:
good catch, im with you on this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-04 12:22:55
subject: <b>Your forgetting something.....</b>
body:
While I'll agree that Nyn is going to try like crazy to restore his hand. All that has to happen is for Semi to get herself Bailfired and *poof* Rand is whole again.


created: 2006-01-05 02:06:19
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
When stilling/burning out was healed, there were two ends to put back together.  It was like splicing a wire.  With Rand's hand completely gone, there is nothing to reconnect.  If it was cut cleanly off, put back on, and THEN Nynaeve tried to heal it, it might work, but there is no hand to reconnect.


created: 2006-01-08 20:14:17
subject: <b>I hope so...</b>
body:
I'm sick of the &quot;maimed hero&quot; stereotype...at least he didn't go blind (a blind messiah followed by a race of desert warriors would have been just too much).  Though I'm dissapointed that no one thought to leash everyone's favorite sadist and put her to work on it.  She's probably forgotten more about Healing than everyone in the White Tower has ever learned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-09 18:08:20
subject: <b>One hand should be enough</b>
body:
I sort of hope that RJ doesn't go that route, but he could justify doing it. Remember, in nature, certain species can regrow certain body parts. And remember, again, that Semi was one of the greatest Restorers (physician) of her time. If all it takes is the OP then she may be able to do the deed, but considering who she is, I think that Rand should decline. But, maybe in the AOL it would have taken more just the OP, maybe a combination of OP and good old medical science, albeit, very advanced medical science. Not everything in the AOL was done with the OP, you know. It was also a time of highly advanced technology. Assuming we continue to progess, just imagine how advanced the real world's science will be in 2000 or 3000 years.


created: 2006-01-21 06:19:12
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
...it sure sounds like something Nynaeve would do, if she will succeed is another matter..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 21:42:27
subject: <b>Can't give any quotes here...</b>
body:
Nynaeve specifically stated that once something is healed, it can't be healed again. Like Siuan's and Leane's weak channeling.


created: 2006-04-09 16:44:58
subject: <b>getting around the re-healing problem</b>
body:
You can heal something twice you just have to break it again. Like if you break your nose and it heals crooked you just break it again and set ti straight this time. So get nynaeve and take a slice off the top of the nub he has left and viola a way around the problem of healing something twice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-09 16:48:12
subject: <b>Just had a thought</b>
body:
elayne is involved in all this! And what is elayne good at? ter'angreal! So he doesn't need to be healed he needs an artificial hand. Who better to make it for him than elayne and who better to attach it than nynaeve!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-10 11:46:59
subject: <b>A bit much</b>
body:
Some things have to be constant. Death is unhealable, limbs cannot be grown back, burning out is not reversable.<br /><br />And as for &quot;Doesn`t waste space.&quot; . . . How do y ou explain CoT?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-18 03:41:51
subject: <b>The Cyborg-ish answer.</b>
body:
How about this.  With a little creativity Rand does not need his hand to be regrown.  He could pretty easily make a &quot;hand&quot; out of Air/Water and to a realistic density and such, and then tie off the weave and attach it at his stub.  <br /><br />He would then have to find a way to make the thing respond to his thoughts but perhaps Nynaeve could help with that using advanced delving/healing related tactics. (and if not oh well, at least he has a life-like prostetic hand)  <br /><br />And to finish off Rands artificial hand he covers it with a weave of illusion that is tied off.<br /><br />There, a little bit of work and he is as good as new.


created: 2006-05-01 20:32:26
subject: <b>Ter'Angreal</b>
body:
Yeah, that's a great place for a Ter'Angreal. I agree with that.<br /><br />Melt down the male Choden'Kal key, re-shape it as a malleable hand, and use Illusion to make it seem life-like...<br /><br />Nobody will be able to stop Rand.


created: 2006-06-04 21:25:44
subject: <b>Was looking for this...</b>
body:
I'm currently reading the series again and as soon as I read that passage about stilling and severed hands, I thought about Rand losing his hand.<br /><br />I'm 100% in my belief that Rand will have his hand back. If you will remember it is mentioned a few times that Rand could still FEEL his hand there. Perhaps that's just his nerves, but I think there's a little more to it, especially after reading that passage.<br /><br />Who will *heal* him, I don't know. I just know that it will be healed. I don't think Rand would survive to the Last Battle without his hand, no matter what he thinks.<br /><br />I'm glad you pointed this out though. There are just too many mentionings of severed hands to think he'll not have it back. Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> The Not-So-Wise-One? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Linayus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,&quot; he said softly, &quot;or you will be knelt.&quot; (Was that not the BEST ever? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> )</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-10 21:30:46
subject: <b>just a thought....</b>
body:
his hand is gone yet he can still feel it(like most amputees) why not take someone elses hand (gross i know)and fix it that way, how i am not sure....it just popped into my head..thought i'd share...


created: 2006-06-23 06:27:48
subject: <b>Severed/Bloody Hand</b>
body:
I don't know, it is just my opinion but what would a bloody hand have to do with a hand that has been vaporized? There certainly isn't a hand left. Also, I always think of seeing a &quot;severed hand&quot; as in she actually sees a hand that has been severed. Like the &quot;bloody hand&quot; that implies, to me at least, a hand still being there not being totally destroyed in flames. Just a thought from a noob.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-12 23:03:53
subject: <b>Re: Siuan and Leane</b>
body:
With respect to the &quot;break it again theory&quot;. I haven't read in a while, but has a male channeled tried to heal Siuan and Leane yet?<br /><br />Does anyone think they might figure out to sever them again, and then have a man heal them, to restore them to their original levels?<br />


created: 2005-12-01 06:40:16
subject: <b>HELLO THERE!</b>
body:
Unless you have not read KoD then you are seriously in need of rereading the books a little more closely. In CoT Logain warns Rand the Taim is taking in students for &quot;private&quot; lessons in the power and they are the only ones he was promoting to Ashaman. Before that he sent the other Ashaman to kill Rand and was very angry with them for failing to do so. He also put a death sentance on the men that Rand had with him after the attack. If this is not proof of his being a DF then nothing else is. Not to mention at the end of KoD when he tells Pevara &quot;As the old saying goes Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!&quot; This the the orders that the DARK ONE gave specifically to Demandred in LoC. WAKE UP!


created: 2005-12-01 06:47:06
subject: <b>your wrong</b>
body:
sorry but he so is. im sort of surprised that this was let through given the overwelming evidence.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />of course if im proved wrong i shall appologise. fairs fair.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">SELF APPOINTED #1 HATER OF TUON <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />I DONT USUALLY CONDONE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.. BUT.. I'VE GOT A SLEDGE HAMMER FOR MAT IF HE'S WILLING TO DO IT</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 09:48:04
subject: <b>as mentioned above, KOD assures us that he is a DF</b>
body:
this theory was a valid possibility up until KOD was released. The last chapter &quot;The Old Saying&quot; gives us quite a bit of evidence for Taim being a DF.<br /><br />-The crest on the door of his palace has been seen twice before in the series. We saw it on the coach that Bel'al sent with BA who captured the wondergirls in TDR. And we see again on the back of Sammael's throne in TAR. This crest is a clear indication of connection to the DO.<br /><br />-The chapter repeatedly mentions the colors red and black. We also know that these are the colors that Moridin favors. Cyndane and Moghedien now tend to dress in red and black as a sign of their being Moridin's 'property'. Again, this is strong evidence of a connection to Moridin.<br /><br />-Finally we get the bombshell that we should have seen coming, the 'old saying' - &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot;. The DO told this to Demandred, and since we've seen it repeated or hinted at by the likes of Demandred and Semirhage.<br /><br /><br />The evidence now points to Taim being an important DF, and it could be argued that he is a 'new forsaken' of sorts. In the very least, it appears that he is the 'Dean of Dreadlord University'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 09:58:03
subject: <b>New info</b>
body:
I had some trouble accepting Taim as a darkfriend for quite a while, but KOD convinced me.  I feel that it is quite possible that Taim's conversion to the Dark side is relatively recent, ala Demandred and Sammael during the war of power. As the wheel turns we can expect certain parallels and common themes to crop up, lack of communication, pride, envy, etc, as common themes.  So nice try but I think this one is growing less likely by the day<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 10:26:55
subject: <b>i agree with logainreborn</b>
body:
i was on the fence until kod, but am in the of course he's a dark friend court now.  it could have been a struggle for power up until now, but unless rj is very deliberately and innapropriately trying to force us to draw the wrong conclusions, then i would say taim officially = df.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


