# w_comment

created: 2004-07-05 23:19:49
subject: <b>Damane can foretell</b>
body:
I don' believe it has anything to do with looking at omens. If you recall Tuaon was very displeased with her future and had her damane beaten for it. She is also watching the omens though, and has said nothing bad about them. I think the foretelling was linked with Mat somehow, which rules out Min style visions too, because Min only has viewings about people she is physically looking at.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-06 15:20:50
subject: <b>Some points to cover my argument</b>
body:
&quot;If you recall Tuaon was very displeased with her future and had her damane beaten for it. She is also watching the omens though, and has said nothing bad about them.&quot;<br /><br />- Well, I just thought that believing in two separate systems of fortune-telling (by damane and by reading the omens) is pretty incongruent. I mean, if you believe in that feng shui stuff, you don't believe in zodiac astrology too. Somewhere along the way, the two are gonna clash, and where are you gonna be.. So I thought foretelling by damane and foretelling by omens were one and the same. When damane read the future, they just interpret the omens too.<br /><br />- Omens are general. Usually, they only tell you if the next day's gonna be your lucky day or something. You won't be able to predict something specific, like Perrin's hawk and falcon. <br /><br />- Yes, I do agree that the foretelling is about Mat; probably why she had the damane beaten in the first place (something scandalous I hope XD).<br /><br />- The point of all of this: I don't think most of the damane can foretell at all. They just read the omens then spice it up a bit with some more vague comments. But every now and then, a few of the damane are bound to get the legitimate Foretelling talent, just enough so that the Seanchan believe in the accuracy of their predictions.<br /><br />Whew, that was long winded..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-14 17:26:33
subject: <b>Training of talents makes more sense than not</b>
body:
What talents do we know about?<br /><br />Dreamwalking, foretelling, seeing taveren, cuendillar making, angreal making, unweaving, etc. Most of these, we know very little about.<br /><br />We know that skill in dreamwalking increases with practice. Angreal making as well, since Elayne's ability seems to be improving. I believe there is some reference to ability with cuendillar increasing as well with practice.<br /><br />And yet, some people state, that just as with seeing taveren, foretelling is a talent that you can't control. But we see different levels of control in the book itself, as with Elaida, who is not seized, and can remember her foretellings.<br /><br />There is absolutely no reason to suspect that talents can't be trained. The fact is, there simply are very few teachers. Moiraine says that many talents are lost. But in fact, they are not lost. They exist in the Aes Sedai, the Aes Sedai just have no one to train them in their use. Take the making of Cuendillar for example. If it is not a skill that can be trained then one just does it or not. Yet it was a lost skill until recently. Now there are apparently dozens who can do it. Dozens, who just spontaneously starting doing it all at once. Same with the making of ter'angreal. Once a lost talent, now there are several who can do it, because they had Elayne to teach them.<br /><br />I think it is entirely possible that a decent percentage of channelers would be able to foretell, if there were someone skilled enough in it to teach them how. There is no reason to assume that there are no levels of foretelling that we haven't yet seen in the novels, since there are levels of dreamwalking, creating, etc that the Aes Sedai knew nothing about.


created: 2004-07-17 12:47:56
subject: <b>To denizen -</b>
body:
No reason to assume it can be trained either. Your argument goes both ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-21 11:16:23
subject: <b>Additional quotes to support the theory</b>
body:
This quote seems to support the notion that there are several degrees of Foretelling. <br />From tEotW, CHAPTER 4, Summoned, page 521:<br /><br />(...)&quot;Still,&quot; Moiraine said, &quot;three at the same time cannot be ignored. Has any sister been able to<br />do a Foretelling?&quot; It was a slight chance-few Aes Sedai had manifested any part of that Talent,<br />even the smallest part, in centuries-(...)<br /><br />This quote likens Foretelling to Dreaming. It is about commonly accepted that Dreaming is a Talent that might be learned and/or honed through training. Perhaps the same is true with Foretelling.<br />From tGH, CHAPTER 12, Woven in the Pattern:<br /><br />Anaiya (...) said (...)&quot;You may be a Dreamer.(...) And Dreaming is close linked to Foretelling. If<br />you really can Dream, it may be that you can Foretell, as well.&quot;<br /><br />On the other hand this quote from Mesaana seems to indicate Foretelling is indeed a Talent the cannont be learned.<br />From aCoS, Prologue, Lightnings:<br /><br />&quot;So our Elaida has had a Foretelling,&quot; (...) &quot;Strange that she should be so clear and so erratic at the<br />same time. It was always a rare Talent, and most, who had it spoke so only poets could understand. Usually until it was<br />too late to matter, at least. Everything always became clear then.&quot;<br /><br />Decide for yourselves what to belive.


created: 2005-09-10 22:12:53
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
it has a parallel with Egwene's need to be trained in dreamwalking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-19 08:28:39
subject: <b>yoda</b>
body:
having trouble seeing into the future- the Aes Sedai all sat around the table while one closes her eyes and tries to foretell before opening them and announcing she is having difficulty seeing into the future becuase its clouded-<br /><br />its yoda and the jedi counsel!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 17:17:37
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
Makes sense. The damane do fortell accuratly and seem to be able to at least pick a subject. Also, before she was trained Egwene's dreaming was random and sporadic and the too gifts do seem to be linked (fortelling is kind of like dreaming when you're awake)<br />Aomeone pointed out that Messana says fortelling was always eratic and unpredictable but that doesn't mean much. It may not have been trained in the AoL. It could just be something that the Seanchean worked out themselves. It wouldn't be the only thing about this age that's new to the forsaken<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />Shadow men talk a real good game<br />Every punchline has your name<br />You cried out and no one came to you<br />~Tom Petty~<br /><br />Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 11:20:09
subject: <b>One two questions about this theory</b>
body:
1. Who is the serving girl?<br />2. How likley would it be that just anyone would have acces to the pantry?<br /><br />Other than that, this seems perfectly logical.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 12:06:40
subject: <b>Now we can lay the subject to rest.</b>
body:
However, you failed to describe how the servant girl was dressed, or the Cairhien man. Where is the complete picture?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 17:07:47
subject: <b>Totally agree</b>
body:
if only RJ hadnt made the slightly critical error of editing out those last few paragraphs by accident...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 17:29:47
subject: <b>You have too much time on your hands</b>
body:
How much time was spent on this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Connor The Great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> You would here about me more but I am lazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Damn Mrs. Grey's World History 2 AP Class!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 17:23:22
subject: <b>I do think he killed himself...</b>
body:
... But I have a different theory. See, Sorilea was coming to get some drinks for herself and the other Wise Ones to enjoy in the sweat bath tent, and she had neglected to clothe herself while she got up to retrieve the alcohol. When Asmodean walked into the pantry to get some wine, the blood drained out of his face, and he killed himself to burn the image from his eyes.<br /><br />If The Wise Ones weren't so secretive and unwillingly to tell Rand anything, Rand would already have heard of the unfortunate demise of his bard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 18:28:04
subject: <b>WOW!!!!!</b>
body:
I think my head just exploded!!!  You should see if jordan needs a co-author for the next few books.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-07-01 11:51:50
subject: <b>A bit too much</b>
body:
It's funny how such a simple mystery has pushed people to create the most formidable(and unlikely) theories.<br /><br />I say Bela killed Asmodean!


created: 2004-07-01 13:53:32
subject: <b>you're all wrong</b>
body:
narg did it<br /><br />i'm so retarded<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 17:30:07
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
... he did kill himself but my theory is different.<br /><br />As we know he was heading for the pantry looking for wine. This was the 10th time he had done this on the same day. Of course before he reached the door he passed out.<br /><br />He eventually woke up and entered the storeroom where he encountered a mirror (which are kept in storerooms). Due to his long time as a bard and his hangover he was convinced that he was Master Natael. Unfortunately he found himself face to face with none other than the dreaded Forsaken , Asmodean , who promptly destroyed the invader of the storeroom.<br /><br />This should help clarify the issue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-03 17:49:48
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I think you really need to get a hobby and stop wasting peoples time with stupid crap like this!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-07-05 07:29:30
subject: <b>Great</b>
body:
You are probably right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-07-07 22:35:43
subject: <b>Whoa!</b>
body:
I'm impressed. It takes some real skill to see around RJ's twisted plots and confusing concepts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />&quot;If you spent less time calling people to witness, and went out and bought a rivet, you'd be showing more sense.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-08 16:59:15
subject: <b>callandor1000,</b>
body:
What is your hobby then? Coming to Wotmania, being a total troll and making silly insults to people that amuse most of us?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-09 14:16:05
subject: <b>Well.....</b>
body:
Other than the fact that you lost me half way through the theory I think you got it right on the button<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />(actually it was Lanfear that killed Asmodean)


created: 2004-07-09 18:46:37
subject: <b>Well Done!</b>
body:
THAT WAS BRILLIANT!<br /><br />Now I understand, thanks a bunch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-10 00:27:08
subject: <b>all I could think of...</b>
body:
&quot;I refuse to prove that I exist,&quot; says God, &quot;for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;But,&quot; says Man, &quot;the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Oh dear,&quot; says God, &quot;I hadn't thought of that,&quot; and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. <br /><br /><br /><br />Bravo on the theory btw. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Good stuff, good stuff...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>~<font color="#3300CC">Ran</font><font color="#0066FF">do</font><font color="#99CCFF">m</font> <font color="#0066FF">Dr</font><font color="#0000CC">eam</font>~<br /><font color="#000066">Question everything.</font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-13 10:44:37
subject: <b>He also forgot</b>
body:
to have the serving girl 'sniff' a few times.  Don't all RJ's women sniff at a man at least once a day?  <br /><br />Otherwise, I like it.


created: 2004-08-13 23:28:11
subject: <b>great</b>
body:
i wish i had a hobby besides paintball football scholastic bowl and singing....................<br /><br /><br />Oh yea where was i? O i thougth that was well thought out and i have no idea why it was in the humor page.  all that u said wold make sence though and and be interesting than some ol' forsaken doin it <br />i agree wiht other pple u didnt tell what the serving chic was whearing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duty is heavy as a mountain<br />Death, light as a feather<br />- a saying in shinar<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-07 08:55:29
subject: <b>Pure unbridled genius</b>
body:
<br />Also, Moridin's balefire would be produced with the help of the true power and so couldn't be sensed by Rand who was in Caemlyn at the time of Asmodean's death. This alone, makes your theory unsinkable.<br /><br />Although we all know that the main reason Moridin killed Asmodean was because he wanted to be Nae'blis and Asmodean was threatening that due to his skills with the harp and the fact that Shai'tan is gay and really loves Age of Legends harp music.<br /><br />Erm..........<br />That's it.......<br /><br />Malkier Dai Shan signing out.


created: 2006-02-21 18:19:35
subject: <b>&quot;Me? NO!&quot;</b>
body:
randomdream forgot the most important part, that man then goes on to prove black is white and white is black and promptly gets himself killed at the next zebra crossing, which shows you even Douglas Adams' high opinion of the state of man in the absence of God.  Hence I'm forced to conclude your theory is wrong; Marvin killed Asmodean because for each human removed from existence the universe becomes a marginally less miserable palce.<br /><br />Oh, and there should be a POV, too.<br /><br />I actually found myself thinking, &quot;wait, I should say something about the logic of this theory, good or bad, one way or the other, why it could work or why it can't.  I've been here too long, and it's not even been a year yet.  If anyone sees my mind lying around anywhere, please let me know. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-30 11:19:15
subject: <b>BF</b>
body:
if Asmodean was bf the thred that was his can not come back if it was burned out of the pattern. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-10-30 13:06:22
subject: <b>uh</b>
body:
if Asmodean was bf the thred that was his can not come back if it was burned out of the pattern.  <br /><br />What? i dont under stand that at all...but i like the theory, its as much bull as the RAFO one, but still it wouldnt be past RJ to do that...


created: 2004-06-29 10:34:28
subject: <b>Title is misleading a bit.</b>
body:
This is not an answer to the question: How The Wise Ones rank themselves. It only tells us how they show their rank!


created: 2004-06-29 11:08:40
subject: <b>I'm not so sure</b>
body:
I remember there were some Wise Ones (was it Amys and someone else?) betting, and the wager was a necklace from one, and a bracelet from the other. Why would they be willing to part so easily from such a significant marker of rank?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sorry for any inconvenience caused. I blame... uhm, him *points*</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 11:54:35
subject: <b>what about Avi?</b>
body:
Are you trying to tell me that Avi isn't as far along in her trainging as two of the AS who've been there a month?  Also, if you look at the Shaido Sevanna and Thereva both wear as many necklaces as they can, and it's pretty obvious that neither think of them as having to do with rank.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 11:55:04
subject: <b>Sorry to disagree</b>
body:
The WOs wear all kinds of jewelry except finger rings (with the exception of Sevanna, who is truly not a WO).<br />As already mentioned, they use jewelry for wagers, plus Avienda gave a necklace to Egwene and received a bracelet from Rand.<br /><br />They get their possessions by taking from those they beat in battle, plus buy them, trade them, etc.<br /><br />Their ranking does not appear to be shown by jewelry, ala the Sea Folk, but by sheer leadership ability and being wise, hence their name, Wise Ones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 12:48:49
subject: <b>Ji'e'Toh</b>
body:
Actually those who have more Ji are higher that those with lesser Ji. For instance if a WO has GigaJi she outranks anyone with MegaJi and naturally all over those who have only kiloJi<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-29 15:57:51
subject: <b>Perhaps, but....</b>
body:
What about Egwene? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />She was considered to be an Apprentice, and a rather successful one at that, and yet there was no hint of her trying to attain some sort of higher rank within the apprentices, just their respect.  <br />And she wasn't given any necklaces when she left the Aiel although the Wise Ones deemed her apprentiship over, surely they would have since they seemed to respect her a lot more than the Aes Sedai who have sworn to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I don't want to talk to you, no more, you empty-headed animal, food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 16:58:09
subject: <b>One example - Therava</b>
body:
She wears very little of jewerly - some ivory bracelets IIRC.<br /><br />But she stays the highest WO in Shaido. And we saw a lot of WO in Shaido that simply wears them because it's cool and they like it.


created: 2004-06-29 18:07:25
subject: <b>I like your idea</b>
body:
and for the disclaimers above I'd like to point out that Egwene was only an apprentice so she could learn to Dream.  There was no indication that she would remain long enough for rank to matter and so there was no reason to give her one.  The Aes Sedai however are going to be in their charge until Rand says otherwise and I have doubts that he'll be willing to let them go any time soon, even when he realizes that they are becoming wetlander Wise One's which is not the punishment he intended.  As for the comment that this theory does not answer the question, I have to disagree.  With Amys and Sorilea on the way to Dumai's Well it was clear that they were the two in charge but in other situations when someone walks into the average situation they would have no information about who they should talk to.  The Aes Sedai who brought this up was interested to know who to meddle with, not why they were the person to meddle with.  Right now they have no clue because its obviously not the power and it doesn't seem to be the age because most channelers would still be more highly ranked than non channelers and yet there are high ranking non channelers.  Their jewelry might very well be a mixture of personal and rank indicators to address whoever metioned the wager, though I would like to point out that gambling for power is said to be very invigorating.  I voted yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 23:46:15
subject: <b>good idea, but I think you're wrong</b>
body:
On top of all the other things pointed contradicting your claim, It is shown also that they will wear necklaces and gifts that mean something to them, nothing to do with ranking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 01:36:38
subject: <b>There is so much evidence that is ignored here.</b>
body:
Others have mentioned some of the more prominent.  Here are some others.  Some of them support the theory.  Others argue against it.<br /><br />Sashelle in the proloque of CoT wore a number of necklaces.  <br /><br />Then again iirc Verin, in the prologue of PoD, saw another of the stilled AS (who is probably not a WO nor an apprentice at that time) wearing necklaces.<br /><br />WO are not the only Aiel women who wear jewelry.<br /><br />Most importantly, in LoC, where Egwene is meeting with the WO in the dream she reflects on this very fact.  I can't recall the exact wording.  The gist of it was that jewelry was something you collected with expierience in the same way that Aviendha recieved her necklaces from Egwene.  Jewelry represents personal, profound, and important experiences in a persons life.<br /><br />The WO precedence changes quickly.  Verin comments on this in PoD (prologue).  And there are a number of thoughts by Egwene and Elayne that confirm this;  although I can't remember the details.<br /><br />In short, I think this theory is a good idea but I think it needed a lot more work before being accepted.<br /><br />Then again, I enjoyed reading it and I am a rather harsh critic as well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 10:19:35
subject: <b>I always thought...</b>
body:
that the jewelry was taken in battle, like taking the fifth from the Stone of Tear. I also seem to remember Rand giving Aviendha something (bracelet?) and she was upset because of what she saw in Rhuidean. Wasn't it because of the fact that among the Aiel men very often have to persuade women to even notice them in a romantic way so they offer them jewelry? I think that was it at least. <br /><br />Besides, as someone stated before, this would only be how they show rank, not how rank is determined. This isn't how they show rank though. Besides, it wouldn't be because the Atha'an Miere already use jewelry. <br /><br />So in other words, good idea, but I have to disagree with you on every point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 09:22:56
subject: <b>Memory</b>
body:
I like the idea (mentioned above) that they wear jewelry simply because it means something to them.  This could be because someone gave it to them, or they took it in a raid, or whatever.  It's a memento.<br /><br />Moreover, having more jewelry would signify having more critical life experience.  Naturally, this would signify a wiser Wise Woman.<br /><br />The thing is, the presence of the jewelry is a moot point as to rankings among the Aiel: as Wise Women aren't ranked by the power, it's going to be by age or by earned respect, both of which would be things that everyone would just know, and would not need to be displayed by wearing jewelry.<br /><br />I bet RJ put this detail in for his readers alone - the physical indication of prowess, age, or experience in a close-knit clannish group like the Aiel would be unnecessary.  However, it does give us a nifty indicator of a number of possible traits.<br /><br />In short, it's not how <i>the Aiel</i> can rank the Aiel, it's how <i>we</i> can rank the Aiel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 23:12:01
subject: <b>wise one ranking changes constantly</b>
body:
There was also commentary to the fact that wise ones who had led would suddenly follow and vice versa with no seeming rhyme or reason except that Sorilea always led.  Still, though, there were certain wise ones that even Sorilea would listen to.


created: 2004-07-02 02:17:21
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
i think this is ... nice theory but ... and may be there is som true in it .... but there must be something else .What allows them to grow in the hierarchy ??


created: 2004-07-02 14:59:31
subject: <b>Wise Ones</b>
body:
are ranked by the amount of life experiences and how much honor they gained from these experiences. Avhienda says this in one of the early chapters of &quot;The Path Of Daggers.&quot;


created: 2004-07-02 17:23:43
subject: <b>Agrees with above... </b>
body:
They rank of their honour. Can't see why people has been confused over that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-04 14:53:29
subject: <b>Jewels are for protection</b>
body:
I agree that jewels do have some sort of significance among the Wise Ones,but maybe not for ranking.<br /><br />Wise Ones are not the only ones to own jewelry.When Mat gave Melindhra a necklace,she always carried it around and showed it to every Maiden who asked to see it.And from taking the Fifth from many battles,I'm sure other [i]Far Dares Mai[/i] have plenty of jewelry as well.But as was explained,Maidens can't wear them since they need to be stealthy.<br /><br />We all know Wise Ones cannot be harmed during fights between Aiel Clans.However,in the heat of battle,during a night raid,Aiel warriors can't go around asking everyone &quot;Are you a Wise One or can I attack you?&quot;.And you can't expect Wise Ones to walk around with big signs saying &quot;I'm a Wise One!Don't attack me!&quot;.<br /><br />Finally,RJ makes a point to always make jewels make sounds.How many time have you read a line similar to &quot;[i]...and as the Wise One moved,her multitude of bracelets clackering...[/i]&quot;<br /><br />So jewels,in a sense,serve to mark women as Wise Ones to the Aiels.<br /><br />


created: 2004-07-04 20:11:57
subject: <b>Disagree...</b>
body:
first of all, it seems like such a silly thing...<br />2nd, Amys and Bair did make that wager over who Melaine would check on first, in Shadow Rising, or LoC, i can't remember. (10 points to whoever pointed that out first)<br /><br />And i'm pretty sure that in LoC, when Egwene is describing Rhuidean at the beginning, she mentions that female Aiel merchants wear as much jewellery as the Wise Ones.<br /><br />As for me, I think Wise One's are ranked according to strength of willpower more than anything else. but that's just my vastly superior opinion...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-05 23:31:26
subject: <b>Sorilea</b>
body:
If that is the case, there would have to be some mention of Sorilea having more necklaces/bracelets than Sevanna, because she is clearly the wisest of the wise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-06 05:27:39
subject: <b>Age</b>
body:
I'm surprised that no one mentioned this yet. I don't have time to find the exact quote that led me to this, but I'm pretty sure the Wise Ones rank each other by age. Meaning the oldest get the most respect. If I get the time one of these days, I'll post up a theory about it.


created: 2004-07-07 01:11:13
subject: <b>Age</b>
body:
&quot;I'm surprised that no one mentioned this yet. I don't have time to find the exact quote that led me to this, but I'm pretty sure the Wise Ones rank each other by age. Meaning the oldest get the most respect. If I get the time one of these days, I'll post up a theory about it.&quot;<br /><br />um, no.<br /><br />It is specificaly mintioned a few times in the books, cant remember which or get quotes right now cause ive loaned out my books to a friend, that ranking is not determined by str in power or by age.  Besides RJ usualy doesnt use the same thing twice and there are already groups that determin rank by age and power, the Kin for age and the tower for power.<br /><br />P.S. the Sea Folk already show rank with jewlery so i dont think that this is how they show rank. but that is just my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-10 00:21:12
subject: <b>chain of command comes from the culture</b>
body:
Yeah, definately not age. And I agree with the above statement, that RJ doesn't like to repeat himself. Tower heiarchy is based on power, Kin on age, and Sea Folk channelers seem to follow the overall earn-your-rank lift yourself up by your metaphorical bootstraps routine... Seanchan solved the problem by treating all channelers like dogs, regardless of strength, age, or ambition. Sharans are a mystery, and don't really factor into the equation so far. <br /><br />So that leaves... what? Hmmm... What concept could possibly be considered the entire foundation of Aiel society? Yeah, I'm gonna have to say <i>ji&#8217;e&#8217;toh</i> on this one. It would make sense, wouldn't it? Honor and obligation. What better way to order a ranking system? In fact, it's very similar to the heiarchical structure one might observe in Japanese samurai warrior societies. The Aiel culture as we know it in the current timeline has evolved in very harsh circumstances--and when there is such a fine line between life and death that 'sleep well and wake' is something a mother might say to her child.... Then there is but a knife-blade's edge between respect and shame. <i>Ji&#8217;e&#8217;toh</i>. It's the basis for their entire culture. Stands to reason that they'd use the same system for the Wise Ones.<br /><br />Rank is all based on culture. Aes Sedai? They meddle in the affairs of nations. They give orders to Kings, and command the generals of other people's armies. They make it their business to overwhelm insane men weilding the One Power. On occasion, they battle shadowspawn. Intrigue. Power. Makes sense that they'd judge each other on the basis of strength in the One Power.<br /><br />The Kin go for age because that's how things work in the White Tower for those who have not yet attained the shawl. For these exiled women, that's all they know. Accepted are given higher rank than novices, and most of the time Accepted are older. <br /><br />I seem to recall instances where Sea Folk make a big deal about how each ship's captain rules over the entire vessel with unquestionable authority. Makes good sense, since life on the sea is considered hazardous at best. You can't have underlings taking the time to question authority when hundreds of lives are at stake. And so that idea of authority has seeped into every nook and cranny of Atha&#8217;an Miere life. The same consideration applies with Aiel social dynamics, if not with the same sort of drastic connotations. <br /><br />And besides, it would explain why everyone else is so bloody mystified by the entire thing. Who in this book series but Aiel--and perhaps Egwene--have any idea how <i>ji&#8217;e&#8217;toh</i> functions?<br /><br />*sighing*<br /><br />That was a lot longer than I intended.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>~<font color="#3300CC">Ran</font><font color="#0066FF">do</font><font color="#99CCFF">m</font> <font color="#0066FF">Dr</font><font color="#0000CC">eam</font>~<br /><font color="#000066">Question everything.</font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-11 00:38:56
subject: <b>cont'd.</b>
body:
in my previous post, i mentioned Aiel female merchants with jewellery in LoC - i meand FoH. I still say they determine their own rank by willpower. Ji'e'toh seems a little unlikely, because i don't believe we have any cases of Wise One's having toh to anyone...their apprentices, yes, but no actual wise ones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 12:39:52
subject: <b>honor!</b>
body:
sariethra had it right:<br /><br />page 52, path of daggers, us paperback version<br /><br />&quot;Aviendha herself found it peculiar; how could strength in the Power, something you were born with as surely as your eyes, weigh more heavily than the honor that years could bring? Yet the older Aes Sedai did obey...&quot;<br /><br />There you have it, folks! 'Honor,' aka ji' toh, ranks the wise women. Age is a coincidental measure in that it takes time to build up honor.<br /><br />wheee.


created: 2004-07-25 23:05:52
subject: <b>*sighs*</b>
body:
has it occured to anyone that perhaps the reason no one can find a ranking system is because, maybe, there isn't one?<br /><br />I mean, we're so used to people with power or authority trying to consolidate themselves into concrete positions.<br /><br />But the wise ones don't need to. So perhaps, they share power as a group and not assign it to a single person.<br /><br />After all, they belong to different clans. It wouldn't be good for one to have absolute power.<br /><br />All the listening to another or giving way to anothers opinions is just them discussing. Often one knows better than another or has better leadership skills.<br /><br />but no, I don't think there is any formal system.


created: 2004-07-26 20:07:24
subject: <b>strength of will</b>
body:
I've always thought Wise Ones led by sheer strength of will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-03 06:08:51
subject: <b>regard gifts</b>
body:
I think it is more likely they are regard gifts, like the necklace Egwene gave Aviendha.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-11 14:31:43
subject: <b>Easily reasonable, reasonably easy...</b>
body:
Have anyone considered that while the answer to this riddle might be as simple as reason?<br /><br />We have been presented with this riddle from three different people: Verin Mathwin, Cadsuane Meilandhrin and Egwene al'Vera, and we know a few things from their poderings:<br /><br />1. Apprentices are not TOLD how their hierarchy function (it might be obvious to Aiel though, as we see everything reguarding this from the wetlander-POV). <br /><br />2. It is not logical to the minds of &quot;wetlanders,&quot; even to the one of them who has traveled and adventured more or less constantly for about 250 years streight.<br /><br />3. It is not based on strength or ability in the One Power.<br /><br />4. Dreamwalking is not a factor.<br /><br />5. Wise Ones who is seen giving orders one moment, can be seen the next taking orders from the same they previously gave orders to.<br /><br />6. It stands to reason that it is not based on fighting- or battle-skills, due to the nature of Wise Ones not being involved in fighting or battles beyond possibly negotiating.<br /><br />7. It is doubtful it is based singularily on age, even if we do know the oldest is Sorelea, and she certanly is perceived as the leader. (FYI: am I the only one who sees Sorelea in this woman: http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/42/425/425218/mariaolivia3_503.jpg ? Possibly the oldest living female in the world, born 1880)<br /><br />My theory is that the Wise Ones simply listen to reason. If a command is reasonable, they follow it as reasonable is. We already know they solve disputes by discussion (Sorelea and Amys on the way to Dumai's Wells), and this method would surely not seem a obvious to any wetlander, who is used to people either taking or giving commands, and not juggling it between one another. It would also explain how the more knowledgable and old women we know among them seems to give command most of the time. Age and knowledge surely plays a part in achieving wisdom, and through wisdom you would give reasonable commands. Sorelea and Amys, both seeming both old and knowledgable (and &quot;wise&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, is the two foremost authorative Wise Ones among the ones we know on the good side, which would stand to reason with this explanation.<br /><br />I'm not saying this is the only possibility, but it cannot be completely ruled out as of now. And I think it stands far better to reason than the wetlandish way...<br /><br />Oh, and as others have pointed out already; even if this theory about necklaces symboling the rank of Wise Ones, it is not exactly the key to their hierarchy. If it was, Aviendha would be able to buy herself a bunch of necklaces and bracelets and be the Wise One-leader...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Andreas Aes Sedai<br /><br />Check out the perfect Sorelea at the link below!<br /><br />http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/42/425/425218/mariaolivia3_503.jpg</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 21:21:34
subject: <b>Maybe half way.</b>
body:
This holds true, I think maybe to some extent. However I think this is only one of the things that shows high archy. I think there are many other levels, like with the Aes Sedia. Its not just how strong they are, because what of when they meet someone with almost the same strength? When that happens they also rely on how long they where novices, and then how long they where accepted. How many years has each been Aes Sedia? And if two are the same in all, weather or not they where a wilder or not. I think you have discovered one layer in a complicated grading system.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-22 22:37:25
subject: <b>not visible</b>
body:
It's certainly a fresh way of looking at things. I'll at least give you that. Wise ones most likely wear jewelry as tokens, from each other or from others, of the various interpersonal relationships they make over a career of being wise. This is not to say that they denote their rank by them, though.<br /><br />They say it themselves in The Fires of Heavan. Only men needed visible signs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-05 23:16:19
subject: <b>One Question</b>
body:
If balefire is supposed to make someone disappear for a recent amount of time as if they never exsisted, then wouldn't that mean that the person who used the balefire did not need to use it within the last second and therefore not have because the person they destroyed did not exsist wouldn't that make the person really not be gone at all? Do any of you understand what I am talking about?


created: 2004-07-06 10:26:12
subject: <b>First of all, Jei,..</b>
body:
need has nothing to do with it.  Only the direct actions of the one balefired are affected.  Thus those who may have had contact with the poor balefired fool will still remember the deceased's actions.  In addition, balefire is immune from the effects of itself.  Person A balefires person B.  Person C immediately balefires person A.  Person B is still dead and will not return until a future turning of the wheel.


created: 2004-07-06 10:30:18
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
i think rj may have based alot of this series on the theory of relativity and all its lovely branches, so i wouldn't be surprised if the wormhole was the basis for balefire.  though balefire directly creating a wormhole wouldn't be accurate since a wormhole is still bound by the universe, albeit in a physical state unaccessable to humans.  the DO i am sure would have no problem accessing this place (i.e., the less complex vacuoles...).  however if you are saying that the beam of balefire itself is a wormhole, then the channeler would be the black hole (or gravity dementing thing) and the 'end' of the space/time fold would be the contact point with the soon to be extinct party.  wormholes are forever pushing force out through their end, so how would this relate?  so literally, i say no, is not wormhole.  but rj does like to make up his own theories based upon the basic tenets of physics...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-06 14:57:39
subject: <b>Undecided</b>
body:
Well, you didn't really back anything up with quotes from the series or something like that.. So I'd have to say, work on it a bit more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-08 18:20:26
body: It's interesting to base your theory on something that is questionable theory itself...
subject:
<b>If you only explain us what the &quot;wormhole&quot; is and how it works <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>


created: 2004-07-09 19:45:44
subject: <b>DO says</b>
body:
the DO tells Demandred in the prologue to LoC that &quot;Even I cannot save him from balefire. Even I cannot step outside of time.&quot; (pg 5 LoC) So balefire has to have something to do with ripping the balefired person out of time, yes?<br /><br />RENALDO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-11 00:48:40
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
don't know about wormholes, but the idea that Nynaeve &amp; co remember the balefire b/c their threads aren't directly touching Rahvin's is interesting. But of course, Mat, Aviendha &amp; the others we are concerned with were dead, and Rand and Rahvin were in TAR at the time in question. Ergo, they don't have any contact with the balefire to remember<br /><br />Here's my question - if Rand balefired Rahvin back to a point in the pattern where Rahvin was, say, holding audience, would those with him then have memories of him dissipating during said audience? would they see the balefire follow rahvin's movements and actions back in time? (ie would those in the hypothetical gathering with rahvin actually see the shaft of balefire?)<br /><br />personally, i think balefire is too complex a paradox to try wrapping your mind around...we know what RJ told us, and it's not going to make a difference what we theorize.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-13 14:54:49
subject: <b>Whoa</b>
body:
(Watches this theory Zoooom over his head)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What are the clouds <br />but an excuse for the sky<br />what is life <br />but an escape from death<br />	&quot;Kasagi Yabu&quot; James Clavell's Shogun<br /><br />I, am dying. I've been dying since the moment I was born.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-13 17:13:56
subject: <b>umm... i say not quite</b>
body:
interesting thought.....but no<br /><br />Wormholes connect to locations in space and time....so going through one would just take you somewhere else...not remove you completely like balefire<br /><br />Wormholes, as described by Kip Thorne and Stephen Hawking, are theoretical bridges in space-time from one point to another (I think these are also called Einstein-Rosen Bridges)<br /><br />Einstein's General Relativity says that space and time are interconnected like a sheet of 4 dimensional rubber...<br />Now, we can try to get a mental picture of space-time by thinking of it as a trampoline.....mass warps this rubber space-time and causes other things with mass to &quot;fall&quot; towards each other<br /><br />If you bend space-time in just the right way, you can connect two places/moments.  Like taking a sheet of paper and folding it over onto itself...<br />WALAH a wormhole<br /><br />all kinds of nifty implications for inter-steller space travel (see the movie/book Contact), or time travel...<br /><br />For more...go to the library or favorite book store and get &quot;A Brief History of Time&quot; by Stephen Hawking...great for science literate and illiterate<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-26 01:15:29
subject: <b>wormhole=traveling</b>
body:
The ability most resembling a wormhole would be traveling or even skimming.  With traveling the two places are either made so similar that no difference exists or a way is bored through the pattern connecting the two places.  Viola a wormhole is created and one can pass through one and exit the other.    With balefire the way it appears to work is that you can almost imagine the pattern as a tapestry, and balefire takes the one thread representing the victims life and burns or singes the thread out of the tapestry.  The threads around it shift to fill in the gap but they havent changed in length just as the people still remember the way their lives would have been.   The DO is unable to revive the victims, i assume its because it needs to capture the thread before its taken to where ever the souls are stored for future use, and with balefire its already to late to do that.  So no, not a wormhole.


created: 2004-08-03 16:37:41
subject: <b>Re: Balefire=Small Wormhole</b>
body:
OK, time for a true-blue science geek to say something.<br /><br />I've read several of Hawking's books, and taken classes regarding relativity and quantum physics.  From all the knowledge I've gained through college and my own independent studies, I can say that, without a doubt, balefire is NOT a wormhole.  AshaDom and Tenshin hit the proverbial nails on the head with their posts, esp. AshaDom; we should talk sometime about quantum theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder (and RL boyfriend) to Magdha Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Current book: Crossroads of [snore]</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-06 14:54:29
subject: <b>quantum theory</b>
body:
there's this crazy cool white-haired einstein look-alike asian dude who was in what the bleep do we know and all these science channel shows about the big bang and 'brane theory and stuff...and he talks about wormholes in this last show i saw.<br /><br />he says all around us r tiny bubbles, and if we focus energy into those bubbles (like through balefire) we can expand those bubbles to the size of a human or bigger, and then we can split those bubbles or something...and one bubble stays in the past and the other we can move anywhere and anywhen...or something. but it takes a lot of energy<br />it reminds me of that book by that guy that wrote call of the khtulu (and/or frankenstein?)...it might even be that book. but basically in the future all these different ruling powers send ppl back in time to this one point in time, that changes the future all the time. just by changing this point in like 1990 they change their world in the year like 10,000 over and over again...<br />that sounds like dire consequences to me. screwing with the pattern<br />where <br /><br />anyway. something like that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-07-16 09:00:41
subject: <b>I like it but...</b>
body:
I do like the idea that Demandred is in the sea folk isles... but when he said to the south he wasn't in Illian.  He could have been talking about his current postion.<br /><br />I don't know... just pointing that out is all.


created: 2004-07-16 18:35:59
subject: <b>Could be!</b>
body:
A good theory- if Demandred is with the Sea Folk then he'd be using the Mask of Mirrors too as I don't think the Sea Folk would accept a no Sea Folk person into their midst.<br /><br />If he was with them though I think something would have happened to the Sea Folk's agreement with Rand- they're quite a good ally to have.


created: 2004-07-17 06:29:24
subject: <b>small problem here</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart, Graendal shouts at Demandred, &quot;And you've just been hoping to blunder into him?&quot; and like statements, indicating that Demandred is someplace where Rand would run into him, under the right circumstances.  I don't see that as a possibility with the Sea Folk.<br />Also, the Sea Folk are a little too close-knit for someone to infiltrate them.


created: 2004-07-17 07:37:04
subject: <b>No, I don't think so..</b>
body:
&quot;THE EVENTS TO THE SOUTH had Demandred's mark all over them&quot;<br />Which events would that be? With the Sea Folk?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 19:34:10
subject: <b>Demandred was in Arad Doman</b>
body:
when he made that statement to Graendal, at her palace. <br /><br />Tarabon, where the Seanchan have established a foothold, or Ghealdan, where Masema is stirring up trouble, are the most likely events Sammael is referring to.<br /><br />Amadicia, with Pedron Niall's plots starting to take shape, is another possibility. It could even be that some of his plots were influenced by information planted by Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-19 21:30:15
subject: <b>not the Sea Folk</b>
body:
You're forgetting the rest of the quote, &quot;I won't have him or his <i>friends</i> interfering in my plans.'  Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him.  If other means did not work.  'So Long as he steers clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear of me or he will answer for it.&quot;<br /><br />Piece by piece, how are the Sea Folk interfering in Sammael's plans?  He rules Illian, they aren't doing anything that would threaten him.  Second, if Sammael was able to get Rand's attention down south, how would the Sea Folk, &quot;put an end to him.&quot;  The answer is they wouldn't, in fact they end up helping him.  Finally, what are the Sea Folk carving out?  Taking all of that into account the most likely thing that Sammael is refering to is the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 10:39:59
subject: <b>Seanchan</b>
body:
Your reasonning is very sound and the Seanchan are a good possibility.  We have to assume Sammael's assessment of the situation could be wrong - or he may have recognized the hand of Demandred in an operation otherwise lead by Semirhage. Those two have the reputation of helping each other - and as far as we know Sammael knew virtually nothing of the plans and whereabouts of the trio (until Graendal told him bits).<br /><br />OTOH, the Seanchan were not back yet, and someone would assume they'd land in the West first.<br /><br />Your reasonning could just as well be applied to the Children of the Light.  They were interfering left and right, for the most part in the West, but lately Niall had sent Carridin to supervise an operation to destabilize Murandy and Altara using false bands of Dragonsworn/bandits before Niall could come as a savior.  There was also that treaty in Altara in which Niall has interfered.<br /><br />So, the CoL were suddenly looking to the East.<br /><br />Since Carridin is a darkfriend and Niall's plan typically made use of proxies to destabilize a country, it makes a lot of sense to me that Sammael thought Demandred was the one behind it and threatening the north of his territory with his &quot;friends&quot;.  <br /><br />Sammael's reply to the threath was to scatter bands of Shaido from Illian to Tarabon, and one of the results was to destabilize what he thought to be Demandred's operation.<br /><br />Perhaps he's not totally wrong about Demandred being involved with the Children anyway, after all Ishamael was using Carridin for specific tasks only, not to control the Children.  Like everything regarding Demandred's plans, it's hard to tell for sure. Personally, I think Demandred's main achievement with the Children came later and was mostly to topple Niall before the Seanchan entered Amadica.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 12:05:31
subject: <b>Masema</b>
body:
thats who demandred is using as a proxy, the location fits and we know that masema is up to something, and by allying with the Seanchan, it brings together demandred and Semi's base of power in a central location.<br /><br />this could also tie in wiht the attack on the White tower with masema's belief that it is blasphemy for anyone other than the lord dragon to channel.


created: 2004-07-20 14:14:17
subject: <b>Sea Folk vs Seanchan</b>
body:
I don't think Demmy would be with the Seanchan, 'cuz Semi is there. And I don't think he'd be with the Sea Folk.<br /><br />I did like the theory at first, with the Sea Folks going to every port, trying to find Rand.<br /><br />But the I realized that the Sea Folk are a matriarchal society, and men don't have much influence. Sure, he could use the MOM to disguise himeslf as a female, but even then for him to have any influence he'd have to be someone with authority, and I think anybody like that would be too well known for him to take there place.<br /><br />Unless he could pose as a person in a new position, I don;t think this theory works.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 19:01:23
subject: <b>Remember...</b>
body:
Dem, Sem and Mes have an alliance which means that probably they are not doubling up within the same society or nation. That also means that Demandred would not be working against the others. (He will later once everyone else has been eliminated. That's when they will turn on eachother.) That suggests to me that he may not be manipulating Masema, if Masema is against the Aes Sedai since Mesaana is there. Most likely, he is with the Whitecloaks since that doesn't interfere with the others' plans. Of course I have no proof of this. And there is always room for double crossing. :-)


created: 2004-07-22 15:37:54
subject: <b>Also....</b>
body:
Also in the beggining of LoC in the Prologue we see Demmi holding a meeting with Mesanna, Semi, and Grend.  They were all waiting to hear what the Great Lord told Demmi.  And he mentions that, &quot;If all goes well, in two months, three at most, he will be where i can safely reach him, and helpless.&quot;<br />We all know that at the end the attempt kidnapping of Rand would leave him helpless.  But i could never puzzle out HOW demmi would of gotten him.  Or even if the later kidnapping was what he was talking about.  <br /><br />Just something to chew on.


created: 2004-07-23 12:28:56
subject: <b>Mesaana said that</b>
body:
She was the one who would be able to get to him easily.  Obvioulsy shielded in the WT, where Alviarin could easily arrange for BA sisters to be the ones in charge of the shield, and thus Mesaana could easily reach him.<br /><br /><br />This plan was likely changed right away by the new DO's Demandred shared with the others right after Mesaana's words.  Apparently the DO ordered them to manipulate Rand and his ta'veren effect to create chaos instead, to leave Rand free and alive.  Demandred arranged to get Rand free using Taim.<br /><br />Mesaana thought the new plan could handle them everything, but was also a very frightening gamble.  <br /><br />Understandable, given trying to alter the Pattern and playign around with ta'veren is risky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-07-26 15:44:17
subject: <b>Taim and Mesema</b>
body:
I think Demandred is not posing as anyone.  He is using both Taim and Mesema to discredit Rand and turn more people against Rand.  He is also probably messing with other Chosen plans to increase the Chaos that the DO wants.  He has become commited to serving the DO, not trying to be the #1 Chosen.  With eternity before him service without the Dragon will see him rise to the acclaim he almost had in the AOL.  After all he was the #2 in AoL if not in strength but in service, Aes Sedai, always behind LTT.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-02 00:55:04
subject: <b>Shaido?</b>
body:
What about the Shaido? They were scattered by Sammael and Graendal (idiot shaido...travelling boxes), but they mostly regrouped down in the Altara area, right? Maybe Demandred is hanging around down there.<br />I don't think this is right, I like the Masema idea...but it's a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-16 09:02:42
subject: <b>Aye..</b>
body:
Healing a person who's been Severed brings them to less than full strength if they're healed by a person of the same sex, and full strength if they're healed by a person of the other sex.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-16 09:52:50
subject: <b>The Real Issue</b>
body:
This is fairly well established, so I'm not really sure it is a theory so much as a fact.  The real issue, and I believe there has been a quick poll or two on the subject, is:  Can a person who is stilled/gentled be healed by a person of the same sex, and is therefore weaker than before, then receive additional healing from someone of the opposite sex and be fully restored?  i.e., could Damer Flynn do additional healing on Suane and Leanne and restore them to their former stregnth.<br /><br />twr<br /><br />I'm just looking for a cheeseburger I can sink my teeth into.<br />- John Mayberry


created: 2004-07-16 12:36:32
subject: <b>Wipe away the rubble</b>
body:
I think you would have to still a person again, wiping away the earlier weave and the &quot;scar tissue&quot; around it so that there isn't any weakness left when the wound is re healed.  Hmmmm...that might actually work with old wounds too, like Thom Merlin's.  The shock of healing would be the biggest risk in both cases.  I wonder how many people survive stilling.  it seems like it would be a high casualty operation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-16 22:02:31
subject: <b>Holla!</b>
body:
Good catch my man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 02:19:17
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I always thought it had to do with the way the 'gap' was bridged. Nynaeve uses fire and earth which are usually weak in women. If she had used the weave on Egwene it might have been a bit better. There is never any realy description of what Flinn uses, perhaps he uses all five powers or more of a mix.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Blessed Be!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 07:34:56
subject: <b>Yeah..</b>
body:
I am in favour of your idea, but I must say that dialya's note also makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 16:41:20
subject: <b>An old issue</b>
body:
... but thanks anyway. Yip , it's sex-based. Men heal women and women heal men. A woman channeling saidar cannot heal a saidar conduit in a severed women ... the two will mingle. Only saidin can heal it properly because the two don't mix.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 17:15:56
subject: <b>People don't die from being stilled</b>
body:
They give up the will to live, therefore if they knew they would be returned to their full power they would be able to survive long enough.  I would go through it again if I were able to get back to my full strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lews_Therin_Telamon_01<br /><br />Bonded to the lovely Vali&#224;Snowstream <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 20:19:29
subject: <b>This is generally accepted theory but not proven.</b>
body:
Who would be willing to be the guinea pig in an experiment to test stilling and re-healing by the opposite gender.<br /><br />I feel sure Siuan doesn`t care any longer, because of her new love. And I can`t imagine Leane volunteering, either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-18 02:29:59
subject: <b>Another thought</b>
body:
When Nynaeve Healed Siuan and Leane, she used spirit and fire to bridge the feeling of something being cut.  As she had done with Logain.  However, men are known to be stronger in fire and earth, women in water and air.  Perhaps the reason Siuan and Leane are weaker is because fire is bridging the gap instead of a power they're stronger in.  Perhaps the Aes Sedai Healed by Rand and co. were Healed in a different manner entirely.


created: 2004-07-20 05:47:43
subject: <b>Sexual Healing (sorry)</b>
body:
I must admit that I thought that this was fairly well established by now. However I did wonder whether a link between Damer Flinn and Nynaeve could perform some some miraculous forms of healing.<br /><br />The Forsaken refer to the current AS's healing as &quot;crude battlefield work&quot; (I think it was Semirhage, but I'm not sure&quot;, and would certainly be aware of far more sofisticated forms of Healing. However the taint would currently prevent women linking with men to perform a Healing, so the idea would immediately be dismissed.<br /><br />Egwene comments in TDR that Nynaeve uses a far greater range of flows when performing Healing (she's healing Elayne' fractured skull), and it's clear that Flinn uses Healing flows never before considered by the Yellow Ajah when he heals Rand.<br /><br />So would this mean that Nynaeve and Flinn linked would be able to heal Rand's wounds? Iknow, I know, RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to SR71 AND Earthsoul - &quot;Married life's a piece of cake after being bonded&quot; (Yoduff's famous last words) <br /><br />Steel for a Throne Chapter 11 - &quot;Taking and Raising&quot; NOW on an OF Fiction Post Board near you</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-21 17:34:35
subject: <b>dude</b>
body:
The Taint is GONE buddy. Read Crossroads of Twilight, It's in paperback now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My sig got old and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-23 03:33:20
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Well, While it is a good theory and has its evidence, I don't feel its true, My theory is as follows... (not sure if anyone else has said this in the past, im not on the theory posts often enough to know.) Basically, We know the more you use the one power the less you can do later, I.E., The battle of the two rivers, the AS who created the exploding boulders couldnt heal as many people as they could had they not made the exploding boulders. Seeing as how Nynaeve heal Logain FIRST (this being my key point) he was healed with all his one power in tact. After that she healed the women and they were weaker. Now we have Damer who healed the women. I know what your thinkin... &quot;He healed the women and all of them were at full power.&quot;  Well this is true, but Nynaeve had been probing and testing for the better part of that morning trying things out on Logain before having the breakthrough, THEN another, Then another. In my opinion that is why those two were healed to less than full power. Damer just went out there and tried his new idea and BAM! Fully healed. Nynaeve was tired. Thats my theory.... why i put this in a comment section, im not sure....<br /><br />&lt;^&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Lord of the Morning<br /><br />&lt;^&gt;Kel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-23 04:56:09
subject: <b>Hey Ash'aman Harley</b>
body:
I've read CoT several times, and WH. The taint was still there when Nynaeve healed Siuan, Leane and Logiain, and when Damer healed the AS<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to SR71 AND Earthsoul - &quot;Married life's a piece of cake after being bonded&quot; (Yoduff's famous last words) <br /><br />Steel for a Throne Chapter 11 - &quot;Taking and Raising&quot; NOW on an OF Fiction Post Board near you</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-24 08:40:01
subject: <b>Either that or men are healed better or better healers</b>
body:
What we really need to see is a couple more cases and a man healing a man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-27 03:04:32
subject: <b>Has anyone ever thought about this???</b>
body:
Maybe, just maybe, Damer thought of a way that Nynaevae DIDN&quot;T.  Nyn was probing around and accidentally came across a way to bridge the gap on a man.  Given the extreme differences between male and female AS, it's entirely possible that what's &quot;good for the goose&quot; isn't always &quot;good for the gander.&quot;  Just a thought.


created: 2004-08-06 17:46:35
subject: <b>UH....DUH!!!!</b>
body:
This is obvious!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 17:44:24
subject: <b>I agree with some of the people above</b>
body:
It is extremely possible that they used different weaves.  Just not enough info yet to tell one way or another.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> (probably more than I should love a fictional character)<br /><br />I like sadists much more than masochists.  Masochists are so needy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 17:47:57
subject: <b>good,</b>
body:
i can definitely agree, but the question is, why?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 17:24:02
subject: <b>DUH!!!</b>
body:
OF COURSE THEY USED DIFFERENT WEAVES!!!!!!!!<br />ONE USES SAIDIN ONE USES SAIDAR, THERE IS NO WAY THEY COULD HAVE USED THE SAME WEAVE EVEN IF THEY TRIED: IT JUST WOULDN'T WORK!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Now to my real point.<br /><br />Nynaeve healed Logain, who channels SAIDIN first, we all know this.  Then she used the SAME WEAVE on Siuan and Leane both of whom channel SAIDAR. If she had used a DIFFERENT weave using the same principles on Siuan and Leane its entirely possible that they would have been healed to the same strength they were before being severed.


created: 2009-03-27 07:47:17
subject: <b>remember what RJ said.</b>
body:
if a man heals a woman or a woman heals a man they wont get any weaker but man to man or women to women they will lose strength.It was in one of the QnAs things I read.


created: 2004-07-18 23:24:45
subject: <b>Just one problem</b>
body:
Unfortunately Siuan Sanche has the talent to see Ta'veren.<br /><br />&quot;'I saw the boy, you know, in the courtyard during the Welcome. It is one of my Talents, seeing ta'veren. A rare Talent these days, even more rare than ta'veren, ... he blazed like the sun.'&quot;<br />--The Great Hunt : The Shadow in Shienar : Page 68<br /><br />I am sure that if Lan were Ta'veren, it would have been mentioned by Moiraine or Siuan in one of their POVs.<br /><br />In addition a person is not ta'veren for their entire lives, but only for the period of time that the pattern needs them (mentioned in The Eye of the World, but I don't remember where). So if he were ta'veren at some point, then the question would be &quot;when?&quot;.


created: 2004-07-19 00:20:25
subject: <b>Another Problem</b>
body:
Ta'Veren shape the lives of other people to what they need. So even though Lan may be extremly lucky for escaping Malkier when he was 1 year old he still has never shaped other lives around himself. And you don't havr to be lucky to be Ta'Veren.


created: 2004-07-19 07:59:57
subject: <b>Not a problem</b>
body:
Siuan Sanche has probably met Lan in the past (I'm thinking of the prequels, although they haven't met yet) and he could have been ta'veren for a long period (We don't know how long a ta'veren lasts). Lan's ta'veren could be a secret. <br /><br />We don't get to read much of Lan's or Moiraine's POV, and when we do, the context of Lan being a ta'veren isn't there. <br /><br />Lan could be ta'veren.


created: 2004-07-19 09:27:52
subject: <b>to greger_sedai</b>
body:
One point we do get a good look at Lan from Moiraine's POV is in The Great Hunt, Watchers (chapter 22). In that chapter we are given a lot of information about their past, but nothing is said about Lan being ta'veren. If anyone would know, it was Moiraine. I can't remember Siuan ever meeting Lan, but I find it hard to believe they have not met.


created: 2004-07-19 10:37:43
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
he is extremely lucky but that doesn't make you ta'veren.  It was a sign of the fact that you might be touching the One Power. Hence the black ajah wanting to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lews_Therin_Telamon_01<br /><br />Bonded to the lovely Vali&#224;Snowstream <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-19 18:54:08
subject: <b>Mmm</b>
body:
Intersting , but no. The theory unfortunately cannot hold any weight unless there is evidence from the books , and from what I have read there is none. There is no way that someone wouldn't have mentioned it by now. With Rand being ta'veren , Moiraine would have commented on the danger of Lan and him being in such close proximity.<br /><br />I also agree with the Suian Sanche problem. And Nicola has probably seen him too.<br /><br />Apart from this I don't think there is any evidence of luck when it comes to Lan. Mat is always lucky. Lan is a true blademaster , luck is not a component - only skill.<br /><br />His rallying of troops is just an example of following a leader or general. In essence he is the king of Malkier and people obviously rally to their leaders. Nothing special here.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-19 21:00:50
subject: <b>nicola did see him</b>
body:
and she didnt say anything about him being taveren (she has that tallent as well)<br />nicola saw him while lan was with the rebel aes sedai and nicola was blackmailing the other two aes sedai.   She most likely wouldve commented on lan being ta'veren at that point b/c we know she likes bragging and probably thought it would get her out of trouble.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-19 21:39:17
subject: <b>Not Ta'veren</b>
body:
True Lan had an exceptionnal life,but that's not what makes you a Tav'eren.It seems being Tav'eren not only shapes the lives of people around you,but also shapes you into what the pattern needs.Notice how Rand,Mat and Perrin became opposite of what they wanted.<br /><br />


created: 2004-07-20 08:50:36
subject: <b>Could be...</b>
body:
(I doubt it) but why has this been posted here ? No real evidence. Just that Lan is lucky, so he could be &quot;ta'veren&quot; ? You my as well say that he can channel. Male channelers are considered to be lucky and is the reason why the BA were killing any male that had a reputation for being lucky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 14:06:18
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
By luck I assume you refer to instances like when he was pushed down a flight of stairs, but lived when most people would have dies. In New Spring, Lan thinks to himself after falling down the stairs that most people wouldn't have let their bodies go limb, and therefore would have suffered injuries, unlike him. I think his cases of &quot;luck&quot; are more related to his general martial abilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 14:31:59
subject: <b>Re: Siuan</b>
body:
Considering the Siuan and Moiraine were best friends and Lan has been Moiraine's Warder for almost twenty years, I find it a bit difficult to believe they've never met, even with all Moiraine's time out of the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />The wheel wills as the wheel wells...no wait...the wheel wills as the weel wells...hang on...the wheel weaves as the wheel walls...errr...the wheel...you know what? Sh*t Happens.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I apologise here for the awful spelling in the message</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 16:08:59
subject: <b>Oh c'mon</b>
body:
You all <i>know</i> that RJ recycled Mat and put him in a different culture to create the younger Lan... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To be serious: I don't agree w/ the theory.  Maybe if there was a bit more evidence for it, I might, but at this point it seems more likely to me that Rand's father was ta'veren than that Lan is.  And no, I don't think Rand's father was ta'veren either.<br /><br />ToT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 23:33:50
subject: <b>Rands father</b>
body:
By Rands father, do you mean Taim, or his aiel father? His aiel father could have been, but probly not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-21 02:32:30
subject: <b>Taim is not Rand's father.</b>
body:
Tam is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-21 15:34:41
subject: <b>Kaiser Karl</b>
body:
If Lan is <i>ta'veren</i> then we also have to assume Egwene, Nynaeve, and several other characters are.  We know this is not the case.<br /><br />However, we DO know it is the case that Rand (and to a lesser extent Mat and Perrin) causes other things to happen so that HE will be able to fulfill the prophecy and do what he needs to do.  This is hinted at by Taim when he tests the first man for the ability to channel.  Also note that Rand is so strongly <i>ta'veren</i> that events half a world away are affected by his plans, especially when Mat and Perrin are involved with them.<br /><br />It is much more likely that Lan's life is necessary to Rand, Mat, and Perrin somehow (OK, in many, many ways) and that the events he lived through were necessary to point his life in the direction necessary and to weave the Pattern as necessary for our three young men to fulfill their destiny.  It is conceivable that their &quot;tugging&quot; at the Pattern in the present day is so strong that it began shaping events long before they were born.<br /><br />Because of this reasoning, I must disagree with this theory.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-22 07:02:29
subject: <b>Siuan</b>
body:
Despite agreeing that Lan is probably not Tavern, surely the question is raised of how Siuan found out she had the talent and who she viewed


created: 2004-07-22 10:59:35
subject: <b>yes he is</b>
body:
in New Spring ... i said that Lan has extreme luck ... the son ... of the princs has fallen from the castle but he survived ... but all the people think that its lan's work ... and that aproove the theory that he is a ta'veren !!! <br /><br />P.S. the same thinks happens when rand is in some town !!!!


created: 2004-07-23 11:03:26
subject: <b>oh thats juicy!</b>
body:
who the hell did siuan view first to know she had the talent to see ta'veren?????? thats the 64 1/2 cent question!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-24 19:08:06
subject: <b>suians skill</b>
body:
That is my point! she could have read Lan as ta'veren and made a pact w/ Moiraine to never tell about him being ta'veren. And thus when Suian finally met Lan, she discovered her ability to see ta'veren. Tada!


created: 2004-07-24 20:41:56
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
&quot;We don't get to read much of Lan's or Moiraine's POV, and when we do, the context of Lan being a ta'veren isn't there. <br /><br />Lan could be ta'veren.&quot;<br /><br />Yeah, and Moridin could be a dragqueen, the subject just never comes up in his POV's. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-24 23:34:33
subject: <b>Siuan...</b>
body:
Has a talent for seeing ta'veren and it was mentioned some wheres that that is a very common talent, so it would have been noted somewheres that he is ta'veren. RJ goes into too much detail to leave that out and i don't think he will reveal this with just two books left. He isn't ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-07-26 20:05:47
subject: <b>The pull</b>
body:
I don't see Lan as being Ta'veren.  He would be pulled to Rand, Mat, and Perrin if he were.  Also, he would probably start seeing strange faces in technicolor, like Mat and Perrin, whenever he thinks of those three.<br /><br />In the words of everyone else, &quot;there's no evidence.&quot;


created: 2004-08-04 01:57:39
subject: <b>Not tavern</b>
body:
If he were tavern who would have 4 walls atleast and abar. oops lol. No i dont think there is enough evidence to regard Lan as a Ta'vern but an interesting idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-10 21:06:40
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
Even if Siuan Sanche had never seen Lan, which is doubtful, Loial has spent plenty of time in his company.  Although his talent for spotting ta'averen is weak, one would think that Loial would have noticed.<br /><br />Then again, I'm not sure Loial has ever been around Lan without one of the ta'averen trio about, so you could counter by saying that Mat / Rand / Perrin could have covered it up -- if spotting ta'averen works like that.


created: 2006-07-04 00:13:16
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I know this has not been responded to in a long time, but I figured I'd point out the problem in what Callandor 1000 said really quick. It is never stated that seeing ta'veren is common. In fact on the same page as Siuan considering Rand in her pov in tGH she thinks that it is a rare talent, rarer than ta'veren even. Sorry... I like to keep facts straight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 18:11:16
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I think Lan is lucky, but what can be perceived as the luck that kept him alive is really his skill. And as for people following him, he has quite the sterling reputation from worlds end to the Aiel waste, so men following isnt really a surprise


created: 2007-05-17 18:17:31
subject: <b>Sorry about the double post but i just remembered...</b>
body:
Logain can also &quot;see&quot; ta'veren. So when he was with Rand and Lan et al in Tear in KoD, he would've seen Lan, and he isnt the type to keep that kind of thing quiet


created: 2008-04-05 17:34:07
subject: <b>He could be</b>
body:
In the last chapter of New Spring, Lan ends up fighting his Dark Friend mentor- one of the people who got him out of Malkier before it fell- and winning. I recall that after he won, he spoke with Moraine, saying that he should have lost because the other man was a better swordsman. As hard as this is to believe, Lan said it himself, and how could someone who's better with the sword lose?  Perhaps because Lan is a ta'veren. People become ta'veren when they need to shape the lives of other people to what they need. Lan needed to survive so that he could go on to raise the Golden Crane (thanks to Nynaeve)and fight at the Last Battle with, hopefully, an army or borderlanders.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  As to why Siuane or Nicola haven't spotted it is because he is a very weak ta'veren, or he is no longer a ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Remember remember<br />the fifth of November,<br />the gunpowder, treason, and plot.<br />I know of no reason why the gunpowder's treason,<br />should ever be <br />forgot. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-19 23:55:57
subject: <b>Lan can't be ta'veren</b>
body:
Ta&#8217;veren are usually the movers and shakers (or end up that way). They are not just the people around/through whom the Wheel weaves major events; the Wheel almost always makes them the notable ones who end up in the history books as THE greats.<br /><br />Lan&#8217;s personal profile fails to fit this mode, at least so far. He is famous, yes, but in a limited way. His &#8220;fame&#8221; is mostly confined to two relatively isolated regions: Blight border nations (especially those near Malkier, like Sheinar), and the Aiel who know him mostly for his reputation as a warrior. Other than for these areas, his notoriety is rather limited; he is not the mover and shaker type that is the hallmark of ta&#8217;veren. He is bonded to Moiraine and in her service. Does that fit the ta&#8217;veren mode, becoming someone else&#8217;s servant; relegated to a secondary role? No. They&#8217;re usually thrust into the limelight even if kicking and screaming. Except for the circumstances of his birth, this hasn&#8217;t happened to Lan.<br />


created: 2004-08-04 21:12:03
subject: <b>So far most of the really strong characters have had the spark inborn</b>
body:
but certainly not all. Sharina for instance is one who had to be taught and she is stronger than Nynaeve. Plus it is uncertain whether any of the Forsaken had to be taught rather than had the spark inborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 08:08:47
subject: <b>Conceptually Sound</b>
body:
Channeling definitely has biological and metaphysical aspects.<br /><br />I have to agree with the post above, though.  Maybe there are two things to consider when learning to channel:  the person's full potential, and whatever difficulty they have to overcome in order to reach that potential, a biological block if you will.<br /><br />You could have someone who channels naturally, but can only manage to light a candle on a good day, or someone like Sharina who has to be taught but is immensely strong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 12:47:13
subject: <b>I think the wheel is a little more compotent...</b>
body:
than to let this even be an issue.  If someone is suppose to be a channeler than the wheel will weave them in to a body that has the proper prerequisites.  Forsaken are purely anomolies woven back into existence by the DO who I would hope had the power to manipulate channeling ability if he has the power to manipulate death.  I personally don't think that channeler souls are always channelers souls unless they are &quot;heros&quot; and that is an aspect of their duty to the pattern.  I might even go so far as to say that if the &quot;Dragon&quot; doesn't need to channel to fulfill his dstiny that he may not have that ability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 15:36:02
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
All the heros of the horn who are reincarnated are either born-with-the-spark channelers or non-channelers. Mat and Birgitte, for instance, have NO former lives in which they channeled (that I know of) and the Dragon has always been a channeler (that I know of). It seems to me that a soul that channels in a former life will channel in all previous and following lives. Of course, this could just apply to the really important hero people. <br /><br />It seems to me like this: it's a basic genetic square. The frequency of those who can be taught to channel is much higher than those with the spark, right? So let's say, twice as much. I see a person who can learn to channel as being heterozygous for the channeling trait, while the spark channelers have both recessive genes. Since society selects against channeling (Aes Sedai don't marry, or seldom do) this reduces the frequency of the gene, which reduces the number of those both with the spark and who can be taught. <br /><br />I'm sure there's something spiritual about channeling itself, but I see the ability to channel as something genetic. Just my two cents.


created: 2004-08-06 03:50:31
subject: <b>There`s still one joker in all this</b>
body:
RAND (the dragon), if its purely genetic, where does he get so powerful a channeling trait from. His Aiel father ?we havent heard he could channel (and im sure we would have been told), Tigraine ? , allthough there are some in her family that channels. She doesnt seem to channel either. and i do believe that the wise ones would have known about it if she could. <br /><br />Does this mean you also can have this gene purely latent without anyone finding out (even experts at this)


created: 2004-08-06 04:34:26
subject: <b>REversing the idea</b>
body:
You've put up an interesting question, and there might actually be something in it. However, in the last books Jordan has gone out of his way to make it obvious channeling is hereditary, with all the families he seems to have introduced for no other purpose. <br /><br />I should like to propose that only people with the right genes are able to channel at all, but that those who have channeled in former lives have the spark, the spark then being something like subconcious inherited memories, which could also cause a block in wilders. This, I think fits much better with the evidence, since we don't see any heriditary factor in the spark, there seems to be little connection with OP strength and yet many AS with the spark are considered very remarkable women.<br /><br />To finish it, I'll just throw in the idea that 'channeling souls' born into a body without channeling genes will be dreamers.


created: 2004-08-06 10:26:00
subject: <b>0_o</b>
body:
Egwene is a Dreamer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 12:21:19
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
People who are born with the gene, but not the soul of a channeler can be carriers. Genetically, someone can be a carrier for a genetic trait, but not show it.  So they can pass the gene to their offspring, who may have the soul to be a channeler.  Hence why the Aes Sedai should mate.  I'm sure that there are male carriers who pass the genetic trait to their daughters often enough.  Hence why you can have a female channeler who has no female link to the the ability.


created: 2004-08-09 12:04:26
subject: <b>a thought</b>
body:
Let's take it a step further. What if there are two separate genes, one for saidin and one for saidar? <br /><br />In genetics, its accepted that some characteristics arise only from a certain combination of gene; I say, when the saidar gene coincides with the female sex chromosome, thats when we get a female channeler.<br /><br />It would explain the families where there are a lot of strong female channelers, and no male ones. And also why male and female channelers handle the Power differently.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-16 10:04:43
subject: <b>Just Genetics</b>
body:
I haven't gone back and reread the piece after having read this theory to verify that I'm 100% right, but I remember in the article on Dragonmount.com about spending time with Jordan  at the convention, they asked him if anyone could be taught to channel and he said no, channeling is purely a genetic thing.  (The purely part is the part I'm unsure of. He definitely said genetics was involved though.)  Personally, I don't see why the Wheel would bother to spin someone whose soul could channel if their body couldn't.  Seems pretty pointless, and doesn't seem very consistent with some of the other ways we know the Wheel to work.  I think the difference between wilders and those who must be taught, is merely an additional genetic difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Grimbear<br /><br />&quot;I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.&quot; -Ayn Rand<br /><br />Charter Member of NANOUS<br /><br />Kazetaran's Asha'Man and Lucky Husband (aka Personal Love Machine)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 03:14:53
subject: <b>Wolfbrethren, dreamers, etc.</b>
body:
Are these people born with the blood to channel (the Old Blood being strong in Two Rivers, maybe even among Aiel), but not the soul? That would explain Egwene. She's a dreamer, almost understands the Old Tongue AND is a *spark*channeler.<br /><br />Old blood + old soul?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-26 15:57:15
subject: <b>Genetics Messes With My Mind</b>
body:
But anyway, back to what was said about Saidar Gene plus Female Sex Chromosome = Female Channeler, what would happen in this equation?<br /><br />Saidar Gene + Saidin Gene + Both Sex Chromosomes<br /><br />A Hermaphrodite that can Channel Saidin and Saidar? Heh, my humour is wierd...<br /><br />Great Theory by the way. One of my top five for sure<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Whoever Will Have Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />More Than Twice as Cool As: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Hotter Than the Sun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Entirely In Love With Myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 22:23:54
subject: <b>Wow, been gone for a while,</b>
body:
Didn't even know that this had been posted, I thought it hadn't made it through.  Awesome!<br />I've been gone for a pretty long time, but I'm re-reading the series now, and so I've gotten reinterested... maybe I'll be able to put some new ideas out there... maybe not.<br />Thanks for all of y'alls posts...<br />First of all, I think that the idea of someone with a channeling body but no channeling soul being simply a carrier is a good idea, not one that I'd thought of...  I bet that a lot of female channelers inherit their channeling ability from their fathers too, the 'calling' male channelers, ones who don't channel without teaching... But my idea about the descendants of Ishara being a channeling line does have holes... hmm... cause you'd figure if they were a channeling line, then a lot more Daughter Heirs, and therefore Andoran Queens, would have been Aes Sedai... <br />Anyway, those are all my thoughts for now, talk to y'all later...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-26 20:16:51
subject: <b>Definitely Genetics... soul searching...?</b>
body:
In Jordan's &quot;The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time&quot; it specifically states &quot;Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive&quot; The Soul however is an interesting point and I am inclined to agree with Onarmishma, if the wheel wants the soul to have a body that channels, then the soul will get one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">fou<br />&#8220;If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.&#8221;<br />-General George S. Patton<br />&quot;A general who draws his sword has put aside his baton and become a common soldier.&quot;<br />Matrim Cauthon... Fog and Steel by Madoc Comadrin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 00:44:29
subject: <b>Good Work</b>
body:
Nice work, and I like the Title, it makes it sound like a real theory, but what is an Underview<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Connor The Great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> You would here about me more but I am lazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Damn Mrs. Grey's World History 2 AP Class!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 00:49:51
subject: <b>An Imposter</b>
body:
The above post was not done by me, it was done by my friend who knows my password. i have changed it so he wont do it agian.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Connor The Great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> You would here about me more but I am lazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Damn Mrs. Grey's World History 2 AP Class!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 03:51:47
subject: <b>Might i say ow</b>
body:
the pain in my head, nice theory, lovely contradictions. I would tend to agree. you make good points, but i'm not sure that RJ actually put that much thought into the titles of the books. although it would explain the ammount of time it takes him to publish them, he's just trying to fit the books to thier titles.


created: 2004-08-05 07:08:26
subject: <b>As you sit there chanelling.</b>
body:
<br />&quot;As I sit here, channeling, I realize that many of my fellow WoT enthusiasts haven&#8217;t the slightest idea as to the theoretical significance of the series that has so captured them, so freed them, as to bring them to a site such as this. Although I will not embrace hubris and take credit for this present exercise I nevertheless cannot avoid the fictions that attach my name to it. I therefore will proceed with my channeling, with my reconfigurations of fragments of time, space, and material. Like Aes Sedai and Ashaman I am an assembler, not an author.&quot;<br /><br />I'd say more like an Ashaman who has succumbed to the taint. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Overall good stuff though I didn't quite get why you put contradictory words in brackets, e.g. fiction (fact), bloom (wither). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 08:54:12
subject: <b>Your MB posts now in the Theory Post.</b>
body:
It has been interesting to re-read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 10:52:49
subject: <b>good work - different...</b>
body:
As I said when you posted it on the MB, I would like to see you include the use of 'heaven' (and the implications of 'hell') in the title of a book that's about a world where neither exist. Perhaps you could write it up as a theory in and of itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 16:26:04
subject: <b>Note to self-</b>
body:
Never try to read that when you first wake up.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You sound like Terry Goodkind's characters.<br /><br />Anyway, its good, but I don't think RJ put that much thought into it, as already said above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>CW</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 22:43:52
subject: <b>Makes sense...</b>
body:
The way you wrote the study...I rather enjoyed that, even if you sound like one of the Nietzscheans (look it up/google that...not exactly what you might think). I gotta say to the other naysayers...RJ COULD put in that much thought over the themes of each book. He had the story in his head for YEARS before setting it all down and have more notes than the entire series has pages!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 09:49:02
subject: <b>pretentious much?</b>
body:
I mean come on. I'm a philosophy major and even I <i>RARELY</i> read anything written with such an obvious intention of glorifying your own &quot;intelligence.&quot; I mean seriously...how can you expect anybody to take that seriously? I have to thank you, though--I can't tell you when the last time was that I laughed this hard at somebody.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 19:45:44
subject: <b>true, but wordy</b>
body:
The theme of Wheel of Time is change, we all know that.<br />That is a much more simple way to explain why your &quot;implosions&quot; of master turning into slave happen. The theme of change implies not a minor change of say one king being replaced by another, but the total reordering of society. So maybe calling change an implosion is more precise, but it is no great revalation. Rather it is an exercise in applying terms used by philosophy students to the wheel of time.<br /><br />Does it make a difference if you use your terms to say why Egwene becomes Amyrlin, and others raised to Aes Sedai as they were, or if I say that it is an example of change, the rituals and instituations of the 3rd age slowly crumble and 4th age comes into being. Ewgene thinks she will swear the oaths someday, but that day will never happen, the oath rod dies with the 3rd age, and this is how it happens, slow, but irreversible change.<br /><br />I very much doubt that RJ had so much in mind when he came up with the idea of a Lord of Chaos. Putting philosophy aside, if your going to write a multi volume epic about the end of an age in a fantasy world, you better make it chaotic or else you'll give your audience one hell of a boring read.<br /><br />I don't mean to challenge your philsophy, I'm no philosophy student, but you should understand that this philosophical explaination of the Wheel of Time, is something that is being projected onto the books, it is not an underlying theme that we are unaware of. <br /><br />I think a more logical reason why the titles are phrased as events in action, The Shadow Rising, instead of The Shadow Risen, is because any amateur writing knows it is better to speak in the present instead of the past. Too many 'hads' and 'was' makes bad writing.<br /><br />if you read the R.A. Salvatore interview, he makes a point about analyzing litiature too deeply


created: 2004-08-07 09:32:18
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Well i was expecting this to be a funny theory but seriously it shoulldve been in the humorous section and not the other academic blah blah blah section<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-10 09:39:55
subject: <b>psycobabble</b>
body:
wow.  after the first sentence i had a headache.  not for lack of intelligence (as you constantly imply the rest of us to be lacking)  but because psycobabble always gives me a headache.<br /><br />go play outside or something.  lose your mind for a few hours in cartoons or freakin knock-knock jokes (which are never actually funny, so why do we laugh anyway?) do something, ANYTHING.......... just lighten up.<br /><br />if you keep talking like that, you'll cramp yourself into a pretzel.


created: 2004-08-10 17:43:43
subject: <b>Please speculate</b>
body:
I don't want to sound sarcastic, but I would like to read some speculation on Knife of Dreams. While I, and others may have been overly harsh in attacking the theory as psycho-babble, what else could be expected when so much theorizing is done without any theory being preposed. I'd like to see the power of the psycho-babble used to tell me something significant. If something could be predicted or explained with this model, then the author is vindicated. At least I'd like to know a practical application for the authors method.<br /><br />And, how is The Wheel of Time so philisophically different from other fantasy works? Becaue Rand becomes 'the lord dragon' and in Dragonlance Caramon goes back to his home town to live with his wife, one is worthy of graduate study and the other is pop trash, but if Caramon became the Lord of Palanthas graduate students could read that also? Are some books labled litiature and others not, based 99% on the methods that graduate studets use to analyze them, and not on whether or not they are good books?


created: 2004-08-11 02:53:30
subject: <b>This reminds me of a quote</b>
body:
I believe it was by John Lennon. His work was subject to analysis, with people trying to find deep hidden meanings that just weren't there. His solution was to write I am the Walrus, after which he is quoted as saying something like, &quot;lets see the bastards figure that one out.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-12 21:52:31
subject: <b>To address two themes above...</b>
body:
As a teacher, I know that books are chosen for study in a class based on whether or not the teacher wants to study them.    It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether the books are considered on a widescale to be &quot;good literature.&quot;  If a teacher thinks that something can be learned from a book that they are familiar with, then it is nothing more than a tool for them.<br /><br />Secondly, most study of literature reveals much more detail and thought than the author put into it.  Analyzing music can be the same way.  Heck, even looking at clouds can be that way.  People can look into completely random masses of condensed water vapor and see entire scenes depicted.


created: 2004-08-14 01:35:02
subject: <b>Untitled</b>
body:
Nice analyzation. Very well thought out, well written, clever puns and implosions yourself, for those who already understood the concept enough to catch them. In all, well done, although I am of the opinion that a couple of your points may have been stretched. While it was a very good illustraition, and excellent example,I doubt RJ was thinking on those terms when he was writing. It just seems too unfeasible considering that he is just very good at what he does, and has extrodinary imagination and good  vision of socialistic realities (although his female characters are losing all their character; becoming all the same, and that I disapprove).<br /><br />-Catch


created: 2004-08-14 01:41:51
subject: <b>PS:</b>
body:
You can find such implosions in almost any thing. It's all a matter of balance. Nothing can exist without a counter, the trick is to look on the edges. So I while I think it's an interesting way to look at things, it's also very general, and cannot really be attributed to just certain literary works.<br /><br />-Catch


created: 2004-08-16 07:40:48
subject: <b>Well done</b>
body:
I'll take two of whatever you were smoking when you wrote all that.   I think my brain just imploded.<br /><br />Joking aside, good work!  Definitely well thought out.   That said, I also believe that if RJ put as much thought into the titles of his books as you just did, we'd still be waiting for book 3 to hit the shelves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-22 00:05:04
subject: <b>Exxxcelent</b>
body:
I find it kind of sad that so many people disliked this theory. I thought it was really facinating, and we need intelligent theories like this more often. This is the best I've read in at least 6 months.<br /><br />Of course considering the reactions up top, its no wonder my first theory was never posted... (insanely convoluted).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-06 14:09:49
subject: <b>i am god</b>
body:
&quot;As I sit here, channeling, I realize that many of my fellow WoT enthusiasts haven&#8217;t the slightest idea as to the theoretical significance of the series that has so captured them, so freed them, as to bring them to a site such as this. Although I will not embrace hubris and take credit for this present exercise I nevertheless cannot avoid the fictions that attach my name to it. I therefore will proceed with my channeling, with my reconfigurations of fragments of time, space, and material. Like Aes Sedai and Ashaman I am an assembler, not an author&quot;<br /><br />that's...how i feel. except it's in real life. and there's people who see the coincidences and flow of the plot irl. coincidentally, they usually read the WoT...these people are attracted to nearly every kind of music, but with one thing in common. the music says the same thing, if you're able to see it. if you don't see it, you see words that make no sense when strung together.<br /><br />read the other theories in this sub-forum and my comments on them. you'll understand...<br />we've got to show the world, man. it's been done through music but we should now do it openly...even if people think we're nuts, or having delusions of grandeur.<br /><br />the secret


created: 2004-08-04 22:26:52
subject: <b>Except that Taim is about the same strength as Rand</b>
body:
whereas Asmodena was the weakest of the male Forsaken.<br /><br />I still think Taim is Moridin, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-04 22:53:39
subject: <b>Why not Rahvin then?</b>
body:
Didn't RJ say that balefired people could be ressurected?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-04 23:04:38
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
The DO himself says that Asmodean isn't coming back.<br /><br />&quot;WHO BETRAYS ME SAHLL DIE THE FINAL DEATH.  ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS.  RAHVIN, DEAD IN HIS PRIDE.&quot;<br />~LoC, Prologue<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-04 23:09:51
subject: <b>Be'lal is a good canadate...</b>
body:
Everything you've said you could apply to Be'lal too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 02:06:30
subject: <b>cannot be be'lal</b>
body:
aside from the fact that he and Rahvin got balefired (which i am 99.9% certain they cannot be resurrected from). Be'lal was a blademaster, so why would he have contempt for swords?


created: 2004-08-05 03:32:58
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
Several comments. The first is that I wrote this theory because it was an interesting possibility not one I am sure I completely believe. yes there are certainly some factors which point against Asmodean or at other Foresaken but I believe RJ comment that the DO might resurrect betrayers seems very, well, pointed. <br /><br />Yes RJ did say that those who are balefired could be resurrected but only if the amount of balefire is small. Perhaps Be'lal fits that category but Rahvin certainly does not the amount was too large. I don't think it is Be'lal though for the sword reason AND because the timing isn't right. Why would the DO have waited so long to bring him back????<br /><br />Yes the Dark One did imply that Asmodean was no longer but notice he didn't say it straight out. Perhaps he simply didn't want the other Forsaken to know.<br /><br />I personally don't think it is Moridin for several reasons. The main one being the saa. I think someone would have noticed saa in Taim's eyes by now if he was truly Moridin. I also think that given that the DO had access to Taim that if he (the DO) had wanted to have Moridin pretend to be Taim he would have ressurected him into Taim's body. Remember Taim disappeared shortly after Ishamael's death (but well before Moridin's appearance).


created: 2004-08-05 05:25:42
subject: <b>Saa would be easy to hide...</b>
body:
...if Moridin was placed into Taim's body.  After all, creating a mask of mirrors, or whatever illusions are called, small enough just to cover the eyes shouldn't be difficult, and we know from Lanfears' pretending to be whatever that fat woman's name was in TSR that the MOM must be able to mimic expressions and so therefore I imagine blinking wouldn't be a problem.  The chances of someone spoiling the illusion by touching his eyes is so small as to be virtually impossible.<br /><br />Your statements about timing I also find confusing.  Aginor and Balthamel were both killed at the end of book one, and yet weren't resurrected until the start of book six, which suggests (to me) that the process may well take some time.  If this is the case, then Taim cannot possibly be Asmodean.  I agree that Taim's strength is also greater than what we know Asmo to have had, which I think strengthens the Moridin argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 08:00:26
subject: <b>It is a possibility</b>
body:
My nephew has my books so I am going on with out quoting Asmodean's death but I don't think it says he was balefired by anyone.  He could have been taken to the Do in SG and there distilled along with the body of Taim.  So neither where who they were yet. . .  I think the DO remade Asmo's soul and dumped it into Taim's body.  I have thought so for a while but . . . <br /><br />The whole strength issue is not really one, remember in the tSR when Rand and Asmo where fighting over the Choden Kal and Rand didn't have a simple time ripping it out of Asmo's hand.  I think it stands to reason that even though Asmo is weaker he could still be close enough to Rand.  Since Rand has never been able to really gage his power against Asmo's, like the Aes Sedia witches do, he might not catch the similarity in power of Taim and Asmo.<br /><br />I also think that is why we see Taim as being sane when he appears before Rand because his insanity has been removed as he is linked to the DO as Asmo reborn.<br /><br />But I must say as much as I would like for Taim to be Asmo I doubt my thoughts because RJ loves to F w/ our heads.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 09:39:35
subject: <b>Time issues...</b>
body:
Aginor and Baltamael died at the end of book 1, but weren't resurrected until the begiining of book 6. Therefore it can't be Asmodean reborn. At the time Rand and Asmo fought for the Choedan Cal, Rand wasn't at full strength yet. Taim is Taim. The time he was gone, he was being transported to Shayol Gul and turned by 13 black sisters and 13 myrddrahls.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 10:41:09
subject: <b>a few comments:</b>
body:
there are several problems with Asmodean being Taim:<br /><br />-as mentioned, the timing is not consistent.<br /><br />-also as mentioned, the strength issue. We have not seen a reincarnated forsaken come back stronger. Asmodean was the weakest of the forsaken (guys anyway, possibly all). Taim is quite strong. In the instance of the fight with the CK - Asmodean and Rand were each using half of the strength of th CK - that's why they were equal.<br /><br />-a small point - we have actually seen Asmodean use a sword before.<br /><br />-I still interpret the DO's statement to Demandred that Asmodean is gone for good.<br /><br />-why not at any of the forsaken meetings - the cleansing?<br /><br />-finally, this is an interesting piece from our own FAQ where RJ answers a question on Taim:<br /><br /><i><br />On the Asha'man finding Rand in Lord of Chaos, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: &quot;Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B.&quot; finding out of the disappearance of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man.</i><br /><br />These actions don't sound much like a forsaken. Especially when it's another forsaken's plans that got Rand kidnapped in the first place. This answer is very intersting IMO. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 15:02:33
subject: <b>where taim came from</b>
body:
saldaea (sp?) Everyone in the borderlands knows how to fight with weapons. Taim not knowing how to use a sword is very suspect. Good reasoning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 15:28:10
subject: <b>Strength</b>
body:
I don't think that Asmo was that much weaker (like Suian to Egwene) he was a Chosen in the AoL.  I mean back then there must have been hundreds or thousands of Dreadlords who could channel yet Asmo was one of 13 to be honored above all others.  I seem to remember Rand say at other points how strong several of the other Asahman men are and that they are relatively closer to his own strength.  Asmo must be only a rung or two beneath Rand and I don't see anything that says Taim is Rand equal or even his almost equal, merely that he is close to his own strength.  <br /><br />I will consede that the more I have considered evidence the less likely this is but I liked Asmo even as a coward and the shadows dupe.  He seemed to have a dry and somber humor and as the theory says why waste a channeler who was one of the strongest in the AoL with all that knowledge.   I am sure there are way for the DO to bind his soul as Taim.<br /><br />As for Taim being turned by 13X13 I highly doubt that if anything he went over on his own and maybe even started the breaking of the seals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 16:48:30
subject: <b>Say What?</b>
body:
&quot;Everyone in the borderlands knows how to fight with weapons.&quot;<br /><br />I'm sorry, but being a Borderlander does not automatically make you good with a sword.  Certain characters in the series make sweeping statements to this effect, but I personally find it hard to believe that every single peddler, fish monger, and dirt farmer in Saldaea (especially southern Saldaea, which is very far from the Blight Border) knows how to use a sword.  Maybe Taim was dirt poor and couldn't afford a sword; maybe he was filthy rich and could pay other people to fight for him; maybe he was just lazy; or maybe he tried to learn and gave up when he found out he wasn't any good at it.


created: 2004-08-05 19:50:43
subject: <b>Intersting</b>
body:
I don't agree, but an interesting idea.  Just deems like, a plot stretch.<br /><br />Makes me think, though.  Moridin seems a stretch, also.  But Taim has info from somewhere.


created: 2004-08-06 00:15:05
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
Taim can not be Asmo.  When Rand first meets Taim and He tells him he wanted Taim to teach the men he was gathering, Rand made a gateway and this surprised Taim.  If Taim was Asmo then he would not have been surprise by this.  He has seen Rand make gateways before.  Memory is retained when they are brought back.  All of the forsaken that have came back remember everything.  So this could not be Asmo.  I like the theory though! nice try.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">OBEY!! Your Master! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  Don't Be Haten!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 09:25:36
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
Great theory although I dont agree due too many of the comments already posted but most particularly because both Jordan and the dark one have said that asmo will not be back. Taim is definately one of the most compelling characters in the series however who is definately more than he seems. Moridin cannot be him either especially as Rand has met moridin in Shadar Logoth. We know Logain will depose/rest power from logain (hopefully in the next book) and I think this scene will clarify for us Taims true/past identity and purpose. I've always liked the idea of Taim working for someone possibly Graendal to allow her contact without ever directly challenging Rand. This would allow her her scheme of tailling the other two Tarveren.


created: 2004-08-06 09:45:39
subject: <b>Lanfear, mayb&#232;?</b>
body:
Think about it. Every thing you've said can be applied to Lanfear as well<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> The DO would possibly see her lashing out at Rand as a form of betrayal to his orders. Also, Lanfear has expressed her dissaproval of swords several times (In teh Dragon Reborn and The Shadow Rising). Also, the DO has already demonstrated that he can put a female soul into a man's body, able to channel Saidin.


created: 2004-08-06 10:56:13
subject:
<b>It's Mesaana disguised as Taim. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
We all know from &quot;Long Theory&quot; that Mesaana is a bitch and like to disguise herself to everybody... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-08-06 16:26:01
subject:
<b>No, Mesaana is Lanfear,  Asmodean is Selene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Mesaana got killed one fateful day she was disguised as Asmodean.<br /><br />The DO punished her and sent her to Aelfinn for a while before bringing her back as Cyndane.  <br /><br />But she wanted to get back close to Rand like in her good old Selene days when she was pretending to be Asmodean pretending to be Lanfear, so she disguised herself as Halima, seduced Osan'gar and traded assignments with him.  She became Dashiva.<br /><br />Osan'gar was for a while in the White Tower disguised as Mesaana and watching over the prisonner Asmodean disguised as Else Grinwell - but eventually Lanfear came back from the dead too and kicked those two out of the Tower (Nobody but me can be Else Grinwell, she shouted! Well, I was sick of those bronze slashed silk dresses anyway answered Osan'gar).<br /><br />So Mesaana fearing Moridin would notice the existence of two Dashiva, quickly got back to her Cyndane disguise, pretending to be Lanfear.<br /><br />So Mesaana is Lanfear and Lanfear is Mesaana.  Asmodean had no choice left, he got back to his old disguise as Selene and started all over again his very complex plot pretending to be Lanfear pretending to offer Rand a teacher.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 16:44:56
subject: <b>too fast</b>
body:
If nothing else it's too fast to be Asmodean; it's usually 2-3 books between death and rebirth for the Forsaken. <br /><br />Also Taim can't be Moridin. Ishy/Moridin has (as far as I can remember, except for with Hawking) never taken that direct a role. Every time we've seen Ishy/Moridin, he's been a puppeteer.


created: 2004-08-06 16:49:04
subject: <b>And that`s how we know</b>
body:
Be`lal is Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />Thanks for clarification.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 12:33:33
subject: <b>Nope.</b>
body:
I agree with the DO.  Asmodean is the main corse at The Roadkill Cafe.  Plus Bashier remebers Taim.  <br /><br />Another point is that the two Chosen that were reborn into different bodies only remember who they were as Chosen, and not who the previous people were.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 01:19:08
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I don't have LoC on me, but I do believe that the DO at least implied,during that meeting with Demandred, that Asmo had &quot;died the final death&quot; and would not be re-incarnated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 10:28:57
subject: <b>Father of lies</b>
body:
DO is also known as Father of lies so there is always a possibility that He lied<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-08-08 14:42:47
subject: <b>a couple things</b>
body:
1, I'm pretty sure Taim is SOMEone reincarnated, I just don't know who. Bashere is suspicious of Taim, at the beginning of LoC he says something like &quot;You are Mazrim Taim?&quot; doubtfully, and if someone was brought back in Taim's body that person could have Taim's memory too.<br />2, Asmodean is funny. Like when Rand did/said something stupid (can't remember when) and Asmo played that tune on the harp that reminded Rand of &quot;haha you idiot&quot; and got Rand all mad<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 12:43:27
subject: <b>Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim.</b>
body:
RJ says he has never posed as Mazrim Taim, what if Demandred's name is actually Mazrim Taim, so as such he would not be posing. This would also be a very devious answer seeing as that would mean that he told us straight out that Demandred never has acted as Mazrim Taim, he isn't acting, HE RELALY IS MAZRIM TAIM! just a thought....


created: 2004-08-09 14:33:33
subject: <b>Balefire...</b>
body:
The DO cannot resurrect a person who has been balefired.  That individual will eventually be reborn as the Wheel turns, but the balefired soul passes on to the afterlife before the DO can grab it.<br /><br />Asmo is gone.  Nice thought, though.


created: 2004-08-10 09:22:21
subject: <b>roadkill</b>
body:
yep.  i also remember the interview where jordan said that asmodean was roadkill and we wouldn't see him again.  but, until i remembered that, i was all excited that someone had finally solved the mystery. <br /><br />oh well,  back to the drawing board.


created: 2004-08-11 04:11:48
subject: <b>Taim trained by Ishamael?</b>
body:
I like this theory although I disagree with it. I always thought that Taim was a Darkfriend trained by Ishamael and possibly linked to the Dark One. I think that this is why he has held off the affect of the taint for so long and why at times he sounds almost like someone from the Age of Legends when he talks about the &quot;so called Aiel&quot; etc.


created: 2004-08-15 06:03:57
subject: <b>well done sccrman148 !</b>
body:
can't believe only one other person spotted that! <br /><br />-we know that some of the forsaken were free before the events of EotW <br /><br />-so isn't it possible that D has been T all along and therefore was never 'posing' as in taking on someone elses identity? <br /><br />-this would also fit in with the 'simple answers are the most devious' in a way any Aes Sedai would be proud of!<br /><br />Et voila! Taimandred lives again!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />ook<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />'i mock you with my monkey pants...'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />ook<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ook-ook ook ook EEEK!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> nice doggy...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-16 15:27:08
subject: <b>Heres an idea</b>
body:
Remember when Moghedian was first brought to Morridin she noticed that he had 2 mindtraps already (I think it was, and i cant find my books grrr). One is Cyndane, and the other is unconfirmed, perhaps one is Asmodeon reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel wills, but what happens when the poor bast*rd whos turning the thing gets tired.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />MY band of the Red Hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-16 18:44:05
subject: <b>Nikita</b>
body:
I believe that there was only one other mindtrap on moridin neck at that time. But alas i also cannot find that particular book at this time.<br /><br />I also like the idea that possibly mazrim taim is actually Demandreds name although it would only be part of his name as most of or all of the chosen would have to have been strong enough or skilled enough to earn the third name.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-16 21:56:05
subject: <b>Good theory but I doubt it</b>
body:
Your theory was well written, I ll give you that. But for one Taim was alive during the same time Asdomadean was alive. in order for some one to be reborn, the other most be dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-16 23:33:30
subject: <b>Slayer Style</b>
body:
We've already seen two (maybe three) instances of more than one person living in the same flesh.  There's the whole Padan Fain smorgasboard o' evil and the Rand/LTT connection.  Could Taim have been merged with someone from the AOL ala Isam/Luc?  <br /><br />The evidence suggests that Taim is not just a normal borderlander.  I think the evidence also suggests Asmo is toast.  But if the DO can get people back who've been hit small amounts of balefire, then Asmo, if balefired by Moiraine (big if, but this is for kicks), could be brought back, too.<br /><br />Anyway, I doubt that Taim is Asmo, but he's somebody from a long time ago.


created: 2004-08-23 22:01:20
subject: <b>Strength and Creativity</b>
body:
Okay, the whole argument about Asmo being the weakest Forsaken only means he was the weakest of the men.  He could still be so much stronger than any other AS or Ash.  After all, wasn't Bel'al one of the stronger FS and Moiraine toasted his butt.  And Nynaeve was so surprised when she captured Moggy that first time.  Why?  Because Nynaeve can't be as strong as a Forsaken yet.  She is still growing and learning.<br /><br />Strength is only a partial factor in weaving duels.  Creativity and how you use your weaves plays a huge part.  I mean, think about it.  If a super strong Forsaken level AS fights a weaker AS, but only has the ability to channel one weave at a time, the second AS is going to win because she can use her multiple weaves to distract the powerful one.<br /><br />And besides, I think MT is Artur Hawkwing back for revenge against Ishy.<br /><br />=)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-30 08:10:39
subject: <b>taim</b>
body:
i think that you could be right afterall, Rahvin is never coming back and i cannot believe that Bel'al would be brought back after all this time. <br /><br />All i know is that Taim is certainly not Taim, with the holding off of madness etc, but also what Bashere said when Taim first entered. Bashere didn't even think it was Taim, who said it was cos he had a shave. Bashere only believed him when he named some of crimes, so you know it just seems unlikely that bashere didn't recognise him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 16:57:49
subject: <b>Foolz</b>
body:
You people DID realize, that back in book 4, about the possible threats to rand, One of them was the collar-and-bracelets that controled a man who could channel. The other was that Darkfriends would free Taim and set him up as a false dragon. Somebody broke him free. I'll bet my last penny that a darkfriend did it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taim's true identity = Taim. <br />Now, I'm not going to talk about whether somebody used Compulsion on him, but.....<br /><br />He COULD just be a darkfriend. Lots of darkfriends become darkfriends of their own free will........ :/


created: 2004-09-29 15:33:24
subject: <b>not so...</b>
body:
cause the way taim is does not justify how asmodean was... they do not act the same even remotely... asmodean was more of the musician type, not to be err stereotypical.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><i><font color="blue">Stealer of Tigrs' Brain</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <font color="red">Aes Sedai to Urza, Tayron, and Jojjo.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Kuke will call you Prendergast Von Bimmle from now on.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep, Slayer_2, &amp; Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Worshipper of Snoopster!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-28 17:51:30
subject: <b>Asmodean</b>
body:
I actually agree to some extent with the asmodean theory.   I know most of you bring up the issue of power, but the fact remains that they were dead even in TSR when they fought, and since, we have learned that male chanelers, unlike women, get more powerful as they go, Rand could have easily surpassed him.   And for those of you who think that Taim is an equal to Rand read the part where Taim shows the testing.   Rand picks up on it before Taim does, indicating that Rand is stronger by at least a small margin.  <br /><br />The problem with swords comes up as well.    As most of you know Asmodean was a musician and probably the mildest of the Forsaken.   I can see a musician not liking the idea of sword training especially when he weilds a power that he feels is superior to steel.<br /><br />Bringing me to the next fact, Taim was wildly irritated that he would be teaching at the farm instead of standing on equal footing with Rand and sharing in his battles.    Dont you think after Asmodean had given up on the DO and the Chosen he would be infuriated to find out that the greatest destiny he had would be to teach.   He wasnt all that happy at being a teacher to Rand, getting irritated when al'Thor couldnt do simple weaves.<br /><br />Another Point: Can we agree that Taim hasnt gone mad yet?If so think of why.   He could be another of the forsaken or a DF, but Asmodean was just recently cut off from the DO, doomed to go mad as well as anyone else, but probably not yet affected by the taint.<br /><br />I recall Lanfear telling Rand that Asmodean was fully on his side, and why not?   After all he was betrayed by the Chosen and the DO had apparently abandoned him to his fate.   As far as we know he didnt even put up as much a struggle as Moghedin did (After all she did train the women to get headaches, a minor rebellion but more than Asmo did, yes?).<br /><br />As for Taim being shocked at the making of a gateway, try to recall that these people are experts in the Great Game.   Why would Taim give Rand a reason to be suspicious?<br /><br />And something not brought up as of yet, why would Taim not reveal himself as Asmodean if he were truly on Rands side?   The one question that may very well throw this theory out of wack.   Well, would you believe it if one of the Forsaken told you they walk in the light and fight on your side?<br /><br />The only reasons I can see not to believe in this theory is<br /><br />Why would the DO give him life again if he were training al'Thors army of Ashamen, unless the Creator has put a hand in and revived Asmodean (as we have heard in several books, its never to late to walk in the light) to help Rand; which is almost rediculas.   I DONT believe that Taim is a forsaken because he has &quot;saved&quot; Rand at least once and thought he had saved him twice (try to recall the grayman).<br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-12-29 05:49:33
subject: <b>Quotes</b>
body:
Just a few quotes that people didnt seem to be able to find or i think are slightly relevant:<br /><br />DO to Rahvin. LoC, Prologue: The First Message, page 5<br /><br />THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and--could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED.<br /><br />Thats an exact quote, sorry for all the caps but thats the way the DO speaks. Now, on to the next one...<br /><br />Moggy, about what Moridin does. aCoS, Mindtrap, page 463.<br /><br />He reached into the open neck of his shirt, and her own tongue clove to the roof of her mouth. Her eyes fixed on the small cage of gold wire and blood-red crystal that he drew out danging on a cord. She thought vaguely that he tucked another just like it back in, but she had eyes only for her own.<br /><br />There we are. He only has 2 mindtraps that Moghedien sees. The other one is Cyndanes (which we know from other POVs later on).<br /><br />I cant find the other quote, but its somewhere in the chapter where Moridin is looking at the sha'rah board (not sure about the spelling). It says, from memory<br /><br />Every now and again he stroked the two cour'souvra that hung on plain silk cords around his neck.<br /><br />Something like that, anyway. Well, just to recap. The DO cannot undo balefire - and i have it from the horses mouth, or whatever he uses - and Moridin has, as far as we know, only two mindtraps.


created: 2004-12-29 06:35:52
subject: <b>Quote</b>
body:
I found the quote. That POV search is useful. OK, from Moridin's POV.<br />tPoD, Deceptive Appearances (the prologue), page 32.<br /><br />From time to time he idly stroked one of the two mindtraps that hung on plain silken cords around his neck. At his touch, the blood-red crystal of the cour'souvra pulsed, swirls moving in the endless depths like the beating of a heart.<br /><br />Just to clarify. A bit later in the chapter:<br />tPoD, Deceptive Appearances, page 33.<br /><br />Fury suddenly boiled in Moridin's head, and black flecks swam across his eyes as he seized the True Power. Ecstasy that amounted to pain thundered through him. His hand closed around the two mindtraps, and the True Power closed around the Fisher, snatching into into the air, a hair from crushing it to powder, crushing the powder out of existance.<br /><br />Once again, an exact copy. So, just to help clarify that there are two mindtraps that Moridin is in possession of. We can tell from later that they are Cyndane's and Moghediens. Hmm. If you really need any proof of Moghediens,<br /><br />aCoS, Mindtrap, page 463. Moggys POV. Yes, this continues on from another one.<br /><br />She though vaguely that he tucked another like it back in, but she had eyes only for her own. It definitely was hers. His thumb stroked, and she felt that caress across her mind, her soul. Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair.<br /><br /><br />Now, to prove one is Cyndanes. This is from Cyndanes point of view. Yes, i do realise this was probably useless to you all, but its something to pass the time.<br /><br />WH, With the Choedan Kal, page 663.<br /><br />The fool babbling at her was an important man as such things were accounted here and now, but she did not have time to make certain of his trustworthiness, and without that, she could not leave him to babble, not when she could feel Moridin's hand caressing the cour'souvra that held her soul.<br /><br /><br />Just to help people out.


created: 2005-05-27 16:45:09
subject: <b>Taim is not Demandred more evidence</b>
body:
In WH while rand is doing his thing with the acces key Demandred is trying to get closer when he spots &quot;a bald headed old man with a fringe of white hair limping along between two woman&quot; He has no idea who he is until the old man (Damer)started channelling at him. Taim would have recognized Damer, since he was one of the original Ashaman and he had recently included his name on the list of traitors. Also Damer was at Dumai's Wells and was one of the Ashaman chosen by Rand to stay with him. So taim knows Damer Demandred did not, end of argument.<br />Comments?


created: 2006-03-21 17:49:57
subject: <b>The Sammael Connection</b>
body:
For the sake of this argument assume that Sammael, as other theories propose, is alive and in hiding. Possibly hiding in plain sight. <br /><br />I always thought that Taim was more than he seemed, and had come to the run-of-the-mill Demandred conclusion only to have it somewhat shattered by RJ's comment. Assuming he may be one of the Chosen but NOT Demandred might explain RJ's deranged glee upon giving his answer. I would propose that Sammael, if living, and Taim are one in the same. The evidence is somewhat weak, but hear me out.<br /><br />In FoH's prologue there is a meeting between Lanfear, Sammael, and two other members of the Chosen. I only picked up on this recently, but Sammael sits in a very distinct, relaxed, confident manner - ankles crossed with just one arm thrown over the side of the chair. In itself, this is nothing special, except that Taim sits in his 'thrown' in exactly the same position, when the Aes Sedai delegation comes to the Black Tower (KoD, Epilogue). This, and Jordan's comment, are the only basis for this theory I have. If anyone agrees, has something to add, or wished to criticize my theory I welcome the commentary.<br /><br />I am aware that the use of the same positioning may just be Jordan unconsciously recycling his work, as writers often do, but it could be something more<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honk if your Demandred... Please!&quot;<br /><br />Jak'O</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-08 17:43:31
subject: <b>Demandrer does not pose as Taim, but ...</b>
body:
Demandred IS Taim.<br />That is, there has never been any such person as Taim.<br />Demandreed simply calls himself Mazrim Taim, but there was no previous Taim to disguise as.<br />In other words, the talk about the 15 yewars of channeing is just disguise. After all, Taim appeared at approx. the same time as the other Forsaken. <br />Wouldn't that both explain Taim's behaviour towards Rand,where Demandred has been all the time, the role of Demandred that the DO lauded, and the enigmatic response of Jordan to the question?


created: 2007-03-29 14:30:23
subject: <b>i don't like it but this is how i see it *espicaly balefire*</b>
body:
Firstly that bit about Mazrim Taim being Demandred&#8217;s name isn't possible because we know from the books what his really name was in AoL... &#8220;Barid Bel Medar&#8221;. Although that aside the other thing actually is possible and more RJ style, <br /><br />&#8220;Demandred IS Taim.<br />That is, there has never been any such person as Taim.<br />Demandreed simply calls himself Mazrim Taim, but there was no previous Taim to disguise as.<br />In other words, the talk about the 15 yewars of channeing is just disguise. After all, Taim appeared at approx. the same time as the other Forsaken. <br />Wouldn't that both explain Taim's behaviour towards Rand,where Demandred has been all the time, the role of Demandred that the DO lauded, and the enigmatic response of Jordan to the question?&#8221;<br /><br />It would be completely in the realm of reason to think that Mazrim Taim never really existed, that it was Demandred the whole time just using another name for this age. Not haven&#8217;t the books in front of me the major problem with that theory though is weather or not Demandred was free at that point in the books to even begin to make a name for himself wich I don&#8217;t think he was.<br /><br />Side note I don&#8217;t surf the web as much as anymore but I don&#8217;t remember RJ saying that anyone can be saved from balefire but I do remember the DO quote saying he can&#8217;t out reach it. &#8220;EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE.&#8221; Unless at somepoint RJ amened this statement and said he will have the ability he just didn&#8217;t at the time of that statement, I am going to go with the book and say can&#8217;t res something that has been hit with balefire. <br /><br />And the excuse that the time is off for a reincarnation I remember see something about  the DO can res people at any time it just becomes harder as more time passes after the death.<br />


created: 2007-05-13 17:50:54
subject: <b>mazrim asmodean?</b>
body:
all very interesting bout Taim being asmodean but.. if i recall corectly mazrim taim was mentioned somewhere  as a False Dragon? how does that work with him being asmodeaN?


created: 2008-07-02 20:38:43
subject: <b>Taim is not Demandred, but most likely a DF</b>
body:
Ok, besides RJ's comment on Demandred not posing as Taim, it is also implied by a comment from Kisman in <br />WH, Ch 22<br />&quot;'Kill him' the M'Hael had ordered... 'Kill him,' Demandred had commanded later...&quot;<br /><br />The contradicting statements there show that Demandred did not know that Taim ordered the attack, so Demandred cannot be Taim, in any way shape or form.<br /><br />As for him being Asmodean, I have nothing to say against it.  As far all the Balefire talk, as far as I am aware, it has never been actually stated how Asmodean actually died.  Just that he was killed and nothing found of him.  For all we know we could have just been quickly killed with the power and dragged off.<br /><br />With the events of the KoD, Taim is most likely atleast a darkfriend with his comment of &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot;.  Which we assume only a DarkFriend would know.<br /><br />As for the lounging, it is possible to think the Sammael may be him, however, my problem with that is that he would have been posing as Brend in Illian, and as Taimin the newly formed Black Tower at the same time.  A rough task, even for a Forsaken.  Not to mentioned Sammael hates LTT, and therefor Rand with an utter passion, and I doubt would withold the oppurtunity to kill him the second he could.<br /><br />The timeline for Taim being a Forsaken seems wrong.  The Forsaken have been lose for a relatively short time, while Taim has been atleast channelling for near 15 years now if I recall correctly.<br /><br />Yes, there is always the Mask of Mirrors, however, I do not see why a Forsaken would chose a known identity already.  In all other instances the Forsaken have made their own persona in whatever they did.<br /><br />Out of everything, some kind of high ranking Darkfriend seems to make the most sense.  However, a true twist could make that whole rant utterly void.<br /><br />I know a lot of that was not solid, and was long, but it seems logical to myself, however we will just have to see come AMoL


created: 2004-08-06 21:55:29
subject: <b>Partly agree...</b>
body:
I can see that they would wish to keep the three artifacts safe, and I beleive that they were not a side note, but something Forseen, or Fortold. They knew Rand would need the Banner and the Horn to accomplish some feat, and that turned out to be his pronuncing of the Dragon Reborn. This event, Falme, ended the terror that both Logain Ablar, and Mazrim Taim were putting Ghealdean and Saldea respectively.<br /><br />Now, I do agree that they also created it to help Rand through the first stages of learning to channel and the sicknesses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 22:33:25
subject: <b>a bit of a long shot</b>
body:
Like you said, Rand had already been channeling for some time before he came to the Eye of the World. It could be that he was already getting a rudimentary control over the Power, instead of the Eye teaching him how.<br /><br />Besides, assuming he knew, why would the DO try to blind the Eye of the World if its purpose was to teach Rand how to touch the Power? If I remember, he was trying to turn Rand to the Shadow at the time. The Dragon Burned-Out wouldn't be of much use now, would he?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 02:22:40
subject: <b>I Like This Theory</b>
body:
I think you've got a lot of merit here. The artifacts found at the Eye always seemed less important to me than the pool of <i>untainted</i> saidin itself. As Someshta says, &quot;they died, all, <i>to make it pure</i>, while the world was torn around them (TEOTW Ch. 50: Meetings at the Eye).&quot; Male channelers seem to grow in leaps and bounds as they channel, and Rand needed this boost to set him on his path. However, if he had had to channel this much tainted saidin, he would not have stayed sane. He needed a pure source, and I think that's what 100 Aes Sedai were willing to die for. I think this wasn't to keep him from burning out or dying, but to keep him from going mad. This would make sense with Leandro's comment above, as well... blinding the Eye wouldn't have necessarily resulted in Rand's death, but if he were to go mad, I think the Dark One would have a better chance of converting him.


created: 2004-08-07 06:04:34
subject: <b>interesting theory</b>
body:
this is an interesting theory but i dont understand how the eye of the world helped him gain control. he had to weave and learn on the spot to defeat aginor and set up the eye of the world to bring all its tresures. how exactly did it train him??? i also agree with the two above comments on the reason for the DO trying to blind the eye.... maybe the reason was just that rand would hav no chance in surviving without this boost and the eye's treasures? i dunno im not the theory-creator but only the commentator.


created: 2004-08-07 11:36:55
subject: <b>Well, yeah, temporary amnesia is a sign of perfect health</b>
body:
Moiraine said in her explanation to Nynaeve that the symptoms happen closer and closer to the actual channeling, until they are simultaneous.  Rand's first channeling was cleansing Bela's fatigue, he had symptoms later in Baerlon when he confronted the Whitecloaks; his second was swinging the boom loose on Domon's boat, and the symptoms happened a couple of days later on the voyage downriver; the third and most obvious channeling was the lightning in Four Kings.  It blinded Mat and Rand got sick just after Mat's vision cleared up.  Rand's disorientation after the fight with Baalzamon were the last symptoms of the channeling sickness.<br /><br />I don't think that was the point of the Eye at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 12:20:22
subject: <b>I disagree.</b>
body:
There are two main things not taken into consideration.<br /><br />1) Men and women are different in the way they channel.  No questions asked.  It only makes sence that there are differences in the way that they respond to channeling for the first time.<br /><br />2)LTT.  That's it.  Rand is the Dragon REBORN.  It isn't his first time channeling.  Plus LTT has helped in other books without Rand noticing, like in the Stone of Tear.<br /><br />Sorry for disagreeing, but you still can prove me wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 05:14:09
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
... but I don't agree for the following reasons :<br /><br />a. As mentioned above - men and women are different. I actually believe that men don't die like women who try to learn. The women who die don't surrender to saidar and try to wield it - so it kills them. The men try to control saidin - and that's how it should be done. So they don't die. If they surrender to saidin they would die - but they wouldn't try and surrender to an unknown power.<br /><br />b. Rand still cannot channel after the Eye. He would still be near useless if not for Asmodean. Remember - before Asmodean , he couldn't even discern the 5 Powers.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 23:25:23
subject: <b>To address some concerns</b>
body:
Firstly, I just want to clear something up. From reading the comments it appears that people are taking the theory to me that I think the Eye somehow taught Rand to channel safely. This is not my position. I think the Eye merely acted as a buffer, making Rand immune to the effects of the channeling sickness, possible by funnelling enough saidin into him to take him past the sickness stage, but I digress. Onto people's comments.<br /><br />To Putnal08, To me the important thing is that the Eye was created for &quot;the greatest need the world would ever face.&quot; I don't think Rand proclaiming himself thereby ending Taim and Logain's stint as Dragon Reborn qualifys for that. Further, if the pool was meant to protect the artifacts within, why didn't they put all the seals in there, instead of just the one?<br /><br />To Leandro Gaidin, If Rand were subject to the dangers of Channeling sickness it would give the DO leverage. He could then tell Rand the only way to survive was to be taught by the Darkside.<br /><br />To sckma; as stated above, I don't believe the Eye actually taught Rand anything, just that it buffered him against the channeling sickness.<br /><br />To Shadar Aiel &amp; sidious; I agree that men and women channel in different ways, but when Moiraine was describing the channeling sickness to Nynaeve she was relating what happened to women who channelled unaided, despite this, the symptoms related perfectly to what was happening to Rand. Given that the symptoms were identical, I think it likely that the end result would also be the same.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 10:50:28
subject: <b>Forcing</b>
body:
Remember right after he channeled at the Eye Mor says that that was a huge amount of saidin, even in the AoL.<br /><br />now jump ahead several books, Egwean is being blackmaled by a couple of novices, complaining that she is holding them back and they should be able to push ahead and what not and Egwean says something along the lines of &quot;What I did is called forcing, it is very dangerous I could have burned my self out or even have died.&quot;<br /><br />now i cant remember if it says anywhere in the book what forcing was but i took it to mean channeling more than a safe amount to make your strength grow, instead of letting it grow in a safe orderly manner.<br /><br />Now, i think that the Aol AS knew that Rand didnt have enough time before the LB to reach his full potintal, but they knew about how much you could force your strength to grow before burning out or dieing and used it to force him to get stronger.<br /><br /><br />that or they intended it to be used in the LB, so he would clean source of Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 11:08:21
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
sorry my last post didnt have any quotes, i dont have my books with me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 11:49:55
subject: <b>to shooganooga -</b>
body:
Good point on the madness angle. However, I can't just dismiss the Horn and one of the seals as just a 'bonus'. The Horn will play a critical part in the Last Battle, and so will the seals. I think the only reason we're not seeing them in action is because Jordan above all, hates deus ex machina. <br /><br />Maybe the reason all the seals weren't placed inside the pool of saidin is simply because the Aol Sedai didn't have them. If they couldn't even hold onto the Choedan Kal access keys (which at that time, was equal in importance to the divided Sedai), you can't expect them to get every single seal. Not when the Hundred Thirteen Companions, its primary guardians, were going horribly insane at the time.<br /><br />(And feel free to correct any mistakes, I can't find my damn books.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 16:28:22
subject: <b>AHA! I think St.Doodle has it!</b>
body:
St Doodle makes an excellent point.  As soon as I read it it made perfect sense.<br />Of course.  Once Rand realized that you could indeed have untainted Saidin, then there must be a way to drain the taint out without killing yourselves.  The Aes sedai, men and women both who made the Eye of the World did not have a way to dispose of untainted saidin the way Rand could with the evil of Shadar Logoth that effectively nullified the taint.  They had to take the taint into themselves, killing them.  Rand knew it was possible to cleanse it, and just needed a safe way to do it.  Nicely done StDoodle<br /><br />My question is though, why the heck would untainted Saidin make Aginor young again????


created: 2004-08-10 02:45:48
subject: <b>good call shooga</b>
body:
I like this theory...I still think the eye might have some extra part to play, but I'm just reading TGH again and have noticed the effects of Rand's channeling...So I agree with you...I hope RJ tells us exactly how the eye helped Rand but the very important quote is about the eye being created to help the world in its time of direst need...What else could be that time? So good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-10 09:07:57
subject: <b>sorry for this....</b>
body:
sorry for this but, i keep thinking that the eye of the world died with someshta.  am i wrong?  maybe i read that part too fast.  i am through my 5th reading of the series (it's a sickness, i know)  and i still have just always thought that.  something that i WAS thinking while reading this, though.....<br /><br />did any of you catch that interview with robert jordan at the comicon?  well, it was at a dinner sometime during the week of comicon, and it's posted in full on dragonmount.com<br />anyway, jordan gives a HUGE brain tangle there.  it has been keeping me awake nights everysince i read it.  the guy writing the interview said it might be a spoiler, but i most certainly was not.  i mean, it didn't give away ANYTHING.  but here it is.<br /><br />jordan said that in knife of dreams we are going to see the result of something done earlier in the books.  and when we see it, the reaction will be &quot;oh my God, how horrible!!&quot;  those were his words.  and now that i am remembering things about the eye of the world, perhaps that is the thing he is talking about?  i don't know, as i said i haven't been sleeping very well since i read that.  my theories as far as the possible outcomes go, change on the hour.  but if the eye wasn't used for it's created purpose, but instead was destroyed for a lesser cause, then perhaps that is the thing revealed in knife of dreams that will make us say, &quot;oh my God, how horrible!!&quot;<br /><br />i don't know.


created: 2004-08-10 19:11:58
subject: <b>Multi-purpose Eye</b>
body:
I agree with your theory.  Sometimes AoL AS seem to know more about Rand and what he must do than he does.  If Rand dies from trying to learn to use the power, everything is lost.  Rand will need the hidden items to triumph.  Also, the eye and the Ter'angreal in Rhuidean were clues to help him cleanse saidin.  <br /><br />As for the RJ quote, I think it might have more to do with the Horn.  Or, what about the Sea Folk?  Rand entered into that deal way too quickly.  Nobody ever said what he was supposed to do to/for the Sea Folk.  He always seemed to brush them off.  What if he can't anymore and it ends up being something bad, like destroy the Seanchan (who he is trying to get on his side).  Another theory for another day.  I may just look up some quotes and post it.


created: 2004-08-10 21:21:13
subject: <b>hi</b>
body:
I disagree. I think the eye were created to accomplish one deed. To aid the dragon reborn against a great danger. The aes sedai had great knowledge with foretelling and I think they were warned and created the eye.


created: 2004-08-11 01:27:15
subject: <b>some more points</b>
body:
to Polly, it's kind of a catch 22 if the Eye was created to protect Rand against Aginor/Balthael, because the only reason the find him is that they are both searching for the Eye. Therefore, no Eye, no danger thus no need for Rand to be protected from it.<br /><br />To Leandro Gaidin. On the seals and the horn, I don't think those items are in any way insignificant, I just don't think they of themselves qualify as &quot;the greatest need the world will ever face&quot; which is why the eye was made.<br /><br />To ppprx, maybe the thing that happened that will be horrible is Mat blowing the horn. Maybe it could only actually be used once, and now is no good for the last battle. Just an idea though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-11 23:54:39
subject: <b>wrong place</b>
body:
the *gasp* thing is the male a'dam, face it, but that is being argued over extensively in the WoT boards, head over there.  i like this theory, though.  if the eye was indeed used for its intended purpose, then it has to be something more important than rand fighting 3 forsaken; as has been said, if he hadn't been looking for it in the first place, he wouldnt have met them anyway.  the horn and seal might fit this importance, I suppose, but there are much easier ways of hiding things, ways that don't involve killing 100 of the most powerful AS of the AoL; the pure saidin must be significant somehow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Come out from under the hood, Demmy.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Wow, wasn't expecting that.<br /><br />RJ strikes again!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> <i>hehehehe</i><br /><br /><br /><i>I</i> am <i>Xander Cham</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-13 01:47:22
subject: <b>hi</b>
body:
to xander. the aes sedais effort to remove the taint was most likely to prevent the DO to corrupt the eye during the thousand years to come. Like the ways. <br /><br />The eye probably had different purposes, to guard some stuff and a pool of saidin. What we discuss is why the pool of saidin was so important, its not needed to guard the items.


created: 2004-08-15 07:49:26
subject: <b>just what i've thought...</b>
body:
this has been my idea long before...the one purpose of the Eye was to pushed Rand's grasp of the OP forward. having filled Saidin, he became stronger. there is just little time between that occurrence and fighting Lanfear in the Stone. he was able to match the latter. <br />all in all, his channeling prowess was jumpstarted after consuming the Eye....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If Love Moves in Mysterious Ways -<br />Then it's Probably Not Heading Towards<br />YOU! - ~martin2j3<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-20 13:23:08
subject: <b>I can add some things to this...</b>
body:
Basically, some comments above need to be corrected. First, and I forget who posted it, said that Men do not die from the channeling sickness. I point to the trainning camps at the black tower and Taim's assessment of &quot;3 men die...&quot; (sorry don't have access to books for direct quote).<br />Quite simply, Men and women are different, but the sickness is the same in both. Channeling, though handled different, will still kill one with the spark without proper trainning. <br />Second: The reason for the &quot;blinding the eye&quot; could help with this theory because the Dark One wanted Rand to be trained by his lackey, Ishamael. It would be impossible for that ot occur if the Eye was doing something in helping Rand learn to channel. Perhaps it was buffering Rand from taking too much power to start with (since even washing fatigue is a complex weave) and blinding the eye would take away that protection.<br /><br />Finally, and heres a thought no one thought about: If the Eye of the World and the pool of pure saidin was made for the Dragon Reborn to use, why not put a ward around the pool so that only the true DR could access the pool? We know from the Shadar Logoth scenes and even the Mountain scene in GH that it is possible to focus a ward around a certain thing. And even more, the AS in the AoL were much more knowledgable about Ter'angreal. It could be very possible to create one that would project that ward (since the ward cancels after the channeler dies - point to RJ comments to confirm) and keep the pool safe.<br /><br /><br />In summation: The theory is interesting, definitely needs more dialogue and writing to make it come true in the last two books. Don't get so hung up about men and women being different when talking about the Sickness.<br /><br /><br />Later gators


created: 2004-12-08 16:33:01
subject: <b>i think you are all missing the point here...</b>
body:
the eye of the world was a massive event! it kept the horn of valere and the dragon banner safe and without these all 3 ta'veren would have died at falme, which means game set match dark one. And as for the eye being to important to be just for a fight with 3 forsaken, WHAT COULD BE MORE DANGEROUS THAN 3 FORSAKEN! the only time more have fought at once was the cleansing. rant over, time for my opinion.<br /><br />the reason the eye was important was because this time Rand was able to see the source of power (unlike his wilder moments) and realised he was channeling. without this moment he may never have gained councious control of saidin, (not enough to beat bel'al, ishy, rhavin, asmo,sammael ect)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 03:48:58
subject: <b>WHAT IF.........................</b>
body:
i have no proof what so ever so................. yeah........ but what if the purpose of the eye of the world was to instill lews therin into rands concious ---thats extremely important. also we know that people are reborn over and over again and yet they have no idea of what their previous lives were(of course there is mat but that was a product of the two rivers being a tad too incestuous)<br />lews therin  holds vital infomation that is of use to rand and he seems to be getting stronger maybe they planned for lews therin to simply take over rands body in time. this is a nice idea but like i said there is no proof i can think of and i dont even know when lews starts to appear. but then again at the beggining of EoTW we dont see that the old dragon has anyone else in his mind so why should rand in this age have one and not the previous dragons?


created: 2004-08-06 21:45:03
subject: <b>Always possible, but...</b>
body:
I doubt it. I try not to stomp on posts, but the most likely reason the Wyas have deteriorated is because that it WAS made of <i>saidin</i>, not neccesarily because of the song. It is possible that Ishmael helped speed the corruption of the Wyas, but I do not believe the Song was used in sustaining the Ways. And I see no way that Ishmael could corrupt a song.<br /><br />Also, the Ways are as dangerous for Shadowspawn and Darkfriends as it is for non Darkfriends and Aes Sedai. It also slows the troop movement of Shadowspawn through them, since they must travel in small spread out parties. I can not see Ishmael doing this, as he must know that it would become important to use the Ways later in the world. The only help I can give this is that maybe Ishmael was already sustaining madness from the True Power, but I also do not support this. He was mad when Rand was first born, but he was still sane enough in a way to run the Shadow's missions, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 22:42:20
subject: <b>to the post above</b>
body:
I don't see why it would take two thousand years for the taint to spread in the Ways.<br /><br />Besides, even minions of the Shadow turn on one another every once in a while. I fail to see why an essentially low-intelligence creature like the Machin Shin would be able to distinguish between friend or foe. <br /><br />And finally, you don't have to take the Song literally. Maybe its a certain weave that Ishamael was able to modify or something.<br /><br />And I'm not stomping on your post either, just saying my piece. ^^<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 01:55:57
subject: <b>I hate to disagree...</b>
body:
Because this really is an interesting theory. I've always accepted that Machin Shin was an evil that grew out of the Ways, but I never put any thought into how it came into being. However, this theory doesn't address the fact that we've almost certainly seen &quot;the Song&quot; in action when Rand went into the ter'angreal in Rhuidean (TSR, &quot;The Dedicated&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. &quot;The Song&quot; was sung by both Ogier and Daishain Aiel, but a Nym was required to make it work. I guess I don't disagree so much with the premise that Ogier Treesinging gave rise to Machin Shin, but I don't think that Machin Shin is the key to finding the Song. I mean, Ogier still have the ability to Treesing, so if that's part of the song, there's no reason to turn Machin Shin back into Treesinging... you just find an Ogier with the ability (i.e., Loial). Also, the Aiel don't remember their part of the song, apparently, but I suppose the clan chiefs and Wise Ones who've been to Rhuidean have at least heard it (or even Rand). The real problem will be finding a Nym, if Someshta really was the last one when he bought it at the Eye of the World.<br /><br />Still, a very innovative theory, and I can see at least part of it being true. Good job!


created: 2004-08-07 11:42:24
subject: <b>The Song, the Tinkers remember DOES NOT EXIST!</b>
body:
It is a misremembered song that was simply used to help crops, and needed Ogier and the extinct Nym to make it work. The fact that the closest thing to an organized religion in WoT has been focused for 3,000 years on finding a non-existant cure for the world's ills is simply the greatest example of RJ's central theme about the power of miscommunications and how legends are born of inaccurate reditions of past events.  THAT IS THE TOTAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE TINKERS!!!  THEY HAVE NO HIDDEN KEY TO VICTORY IN THE LAST BATTLE, AND THEIR &quot;SONG&quot; IS A FARCE!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 12:12:29
subject: <b>Sorry, had to disagree.</b>
body:
Ok, I agree that the Ways were grown with Sadin, and the whole talisman thing, but it gets a little iffy after that.  It took quite a few men to grow the Ways, and they were powerful.  If that's true then Ishy wouldn't have been powerful enough to corrupt them on his own.  I have my own theory on this, maybe I'll post it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 13:00:12
subject: <b>I'm with Cannoli</b>
body:
I agree the song is the crop growing song unless the Tinkers go to Rhuidean they're probably doomed to fixing pots and pans. <br /><br />Also more to the point of the theory... I think it's a great idea, I just disagree. I think it was pretty well established in the books somewhere (by Moiraine I believe) that Machin Shin and the deterioration of the Ways is due to the Taint.


created: 2004-08-08 11:21:29
subject: <b>I have to disagree</b>
body:
I think people take the concept of a 'song' far too literally. I mean, c'mon people when has RJ ever done something that easy to figure out? I believe the correct answer would be something like... never. I think that the song is a metaphor for something else. What that something else is is the part I'm still working on. <br /><br />Cannoli, no need to shout. We're all right here. The fact that most people haven't grasped that the Song is not some all powerful key to winning the Last Battle shouldn't get you all worked up like that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 14:52:59
subject: <b>stupid tinkers</b>
body:
When the Tinkers broke off from the other Aiel (tSR, when Rand is in the Rhuidean ter'angreal) they said something like &quot;We used to sing songs. Maybe we can find those songs again, and everything will be better.&quot; They're talking about the Seedsinging, as the others have already said, and learning to sow seeds probably will not make everything all better. It's one of those little fancies like Perrin has at the beginning of CoS when he's like &quot;oh if I get Faile's horse back to the Sun Palace she'll be all right!&quot;<br /><br />And if I'm wrong, my next theory is that &quot;the Song&quot; the Tinkers are looking for is either &quot;Rock Lobster&quot; or &quot;Don't Fear the Reaper.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 12:21:49
subject: <b>I thought at least one person should argue your case</b>
body:
At least partially....  If I remeber correctly in the AOL not all Aiel had the talent required to Sing.  Like the Ogier this talemt is not related to channeling because if you remember Rand's ancestor was not able to channel but he was able to Sing.  This means that if the Ogier are still able to Sing without Nym that humans can probably pull it off as well.  I believe Nym were just magnifiers built to enhance the effect of the Aiel and Ogier.  However I don't believe that there are words to this Song, it is a Talent that perhaps the Ogier can't teach or awake in Humans.  I don't think its possible to learn it from The Black Wind either though I am willing to believe that it is at least in part a corruption of the Ogier Song corrupted by the Taint.  Because the effects of the song would have had to continue within the ways in order to grow the grass and food meant to comfort travelers.  If the Talent for Singing were to be rediscovered I think the Tinkers would have to enter the glass coloumns and even then it may be lost forever because remembering what happened and how it felt doesn't matter if you don't have the Talent needed to reproduce the experience.  For example experiencing channeling in your ancestor would not teach you anything unless you also had the ability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 16:43:18
subject: <b>location of the song</b>
body:
i think that the tinkers song will still play an important role in the book. i also think that they will get it from the aiel. (ironic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)


created: 2004-08-10 08:25:49
subject: <b>to onarishma</b>
body:
hey, thanx for this....<br /><br />((((((((((Where do these Skimmers came from? I mean if they didn't want to actually read the book they should have just Traveled straight to another author. Why coast around in darkness. Why risk falling off your platform and ending up at the wrong destination.))))))))))))<br /><br /><br />that's the funniest thing i have read in a long time.  and i VERY OFTEN find myself wondering the same thing.<br /><br />in any case, as for the theory, it's a cool idea.  i don't know that it will turn out that way, but i am always looking for clues about that freaking 'song'.  anyway, good job on thinking it out, but i think it will probably be very different.


created: 2004-08-10 10:46:29
subject: <b>Ishy wouldnt ruin the ways</b>
body:
I dont see the reason Ishy would ruin the ways, because it seems to me that the Forsaken need to use them but because of the corruption they can't. so i fail to see in ur theory how ishy couldve ruined them in anywhey. plus i highly doubt Ishy had a singing voice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Calhar! Dovie'andi se tovya sagain! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loth<br />~~M'hael de Shen al Calhar~~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-10 21:09:49
subject: <b>hi</b>
body:
the problem I think is that everyone see the SONG as a song as we know it =) Its something much more important than helping feelds to crop... I donno what the song is but I think we will be surprised when we find out. I think its somthing with a harmony between saidin and saidar, maybe the essence of the source.


created: 2004-08-20 22:35:32
subject: <b>It was stated...</b>
body:
by Aginor or Bethamel that the seal on the bore was already weak enough to allow them to escape as they were closer to the edge of the seal. which to me suggests that the D.O. was already working on the seals. <br /><br />In dealing with the wards later in the series it appears that wards generally are almost smooth with no gaps they either need to be broken or bored through even with only saidar or saidin using both would be effective but not automatically perfect.<br /><br />It does seem rather fortunate that a person with the ability to create heartstone (Egwene) Ter'angreal (Elayne) and the dragon cleansing the taint (duh) are all around at the same time. So maybe the new seal will include both halves of the power with no taint to ruin it although the original seal should not have been tainted (hmmmmm.....)<br /><br />I also think that the eye of the world may have been created for exactly what rand used it for. If he had not defeated Aginor and thrown the trollocs back at tarwins(?) gap the world would have lost the dragon and the only hope of winning the last battle and the blight would have advanced considerbly. <br /><br />i probably should have just wrote a theory but seeing this lead naturally into my own ideas. i'm probably all wrong on this but i've been wrong before<br /><br />nice job shinerw i hope this leads into a beautiful discussion<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-21 06:06:30
subject: <b>one thin</b>
body:
the gaps on the shield  of callandor are much too different with that of the seals.<br /><br />the gaps on the seals might have been caused by the taint, you see that the placing the seals is at the same time of creating it. the weakening of the seals is also because of the taint, i think<br /><br />the use of the eye might as well be what you said it would be, nice job mate


created: 2004-08-21 18:20:18
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
The reason Egwene felt gaps in the warding around Callandor is that both Saidin and Saidar were used in its weaving.  The Eye contains pure Saidin; I don't see how it could fill in the gaps left by a pure Saidin patch on the Bore.  If it were Saidar, I think this theory would have a lot more going for it.<br /><br />I am also troubled by exactly what blinding the Eye means.  It could be that the DO just wanted to get to the seal at the bottom of the Eye so that he could weaken it with his DO-mojo.<br /><br />You're right that the Bore will have to be completely resealed as good as new in order to complete the circle.  I think it is more likely, however, that resealing the Bore will entail scrapping the current seals and weaving some sort of Callandor-like ward around the hole.  I think that cleansing Saidin was an important part of that.<br /><br />Beyond that, I don't have a clue.  Nice analysis, though.


created: 2004-08-21 21:17:30
subject: <b>It makes sense to me</b>
body:
Although, the wording is a little confusing about the gaps. I do think the Eye was made for something essential, like this, rather than what stupid Rand used it for. (Light, is he stupid! I don't know who in the series screws up so much with good intentions...maybe Valan Luca...*smacks self in forehead for saying &quot;Light&quot; without quoting the book<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> This theory may well be correct. In any case, I think it's pretty likely we'll find out in Knife of Dreams. RJ said that we would find out the consequences of something done earlier in the books and out reaction would be &quot;Oh, how horrible!&quot;. The Eye being used for what it was, IMO, is the most likely event to have unforseen horrible consequences.


created: 2004-08-21 21:26:15
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Sweet - I constantly find myself saying &quot;Light!&quot;<br /><br />But if the Eye was wasted, how did Rand &amp; Co. find it in the first place?  Moiraine's need was so great that she was able to find it again.  What was that need?  Apparently to see a crispy old dude and feed a sado-masochist a poisonous mushroom.  Although I agree that Rand's use of the Eye hardly seems to have addressed the most important need in the world, Moiraine never indicated any displeasure with how Rand used it.  <br /><br />Probably the need was the weakening of the seals / the prologue to the next Tarmon Gaidon -- this would require discovering the Horn and the Banner and, if our various theories are right that the old seals have to be destroyed before the old Bore can be truly sealed, the Seal.<br /><br />But even if the pure Saidin was necessary to do something special, shouldn't this have been dealt with by the cleansing of Saidin?<br /><br />And (someone please post a theory or two) does this have anything to do with Rand's sickness when seizing the Source or with male sa'angreal between Callandor and the big statue thingy?  (My personal hope is that the Dragon's Banner is the 2nd place male sa'angreal.)


created: 2004-08-21 22:02:12
subject: <b>I liked your theory..</b>
body:
but personally I always felt that the Eye of the World was linked to Rand learning to channel. Since 3 in 4 wilders don't survive it would be pretty important to insure that the Dragon Reborn survived. You will notice that he doesn't feel the &quot;side-effects&quot; of unknown channeling after tapping the Eye.


created: 2004-08-22 01:10:02
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
It wasn't Moiraine's need that found the Eye of the World, it was Rand's need.  That said, I think the Trolloc invasion that would have walked right across Shienar (and Cairhien, parts of Andor and Tear, etc.) that Rand stopped at Tarwin's Gap with the Saidin from the Eye was useful enough.  Imagine how the series would have turned out if the Trollocs smashed half the world in the first book!  Good theory though, someone should expand on this idea and get to the bottom of the Eye's intended purpose.  I think it was for whatever need was greatest, and obviously three Forsaken and a giant army of Trollocs attacking all at once is a rather large need.  Just my thoughts....<br /><br />Ever read the theory post?  Ever read the theory post 'on weed?'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-22 13:46:45
subject:
<b>Nice try, but I don`t agree. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
First of all, IMO, the Eye was for the purpose in which it was used. As stated above, it served several purposes: to allow Rand to channel safely, to get rid of 3 Forsaken (temporarily) and to stop the Trolloc invasion.<br /><br />But, in addition, it gave Rand the Dragon Banner, plus it gave the world the Horn of Valere, and a broken Seal, alerting the world of dire events to come.<br /><br />To get back to the Seals, they are only focus points, not the Seals of the Bore. RJordan has said that if women AS had helped in the sealing, then sai`dar would also be tainted.<br /><br />Fel told Rand that only the Creator could make the Bore whole again, so it leaves us to wonder how this is going to happen. My theory is that after crushing all the Seals, the Bore will begin Healing itself, much as bodily wounds heal after cleaning out foreign objects. Since I seem to be a majority of one (1), we`ll have to RAFO. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Having the women channelers there along with men will ensure that sai`din and sai`dar will both be tainted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-22 20:15:43
subject: <b>I think the pure Saidin and Saidar</b>
body:
Filled the gaps between the wards. No matter how tightly woven a fabric is, it will have at least microscopic holes. As the Power most likely works on a molecular or atomic level, it'd naturally, be able to fill in the gaps of the weave.<br /><br />Look at wards, someone can bore through them. Their has to be some hole to start with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-23 02:00:45
subject: <b>Egwene's Gaps</b>
body:
are actually <i>Saidin</i>. She can't see it, but both halves were used in the weaves around Callandor. So it's not like it's empty space for something to pass through. <br /><br />I like the way you are thinking. I don't think the Eye's purpose was to help Rand against Aginor, and what you have come up with rings more true in my mind. Other than my one objection stated above, I like it. I voted thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-23 09:00:43
subject: <b>Yarr</b>
body:
I think this is a little off and I tend to think the eye was more for Rand like people stated above.  The &quot;Eye of the World&quot; both for the world to know Rand and Rand to finally know his role in the world.  As much as Rand doesn't want it the Eye gives him the power to be able to channel and not die from it.  In TGH, the episode with the second portal stone, I think Rand dies from channeling sickness after Morianne never finds him in one possibility.  <br /><br />I also think the theory with the weaves having gaps and being filled w/ saidin over saidin not wholely the point.  I don't think a weave has a gap unless the channeler means for there to be one or someone else makes one.<br /><br />In the end we all are slaves to RJ's mantra RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-23 13:28:34
subject: <b>the eye of the world</b>
body:
In terms of the Eye of the World being used for the world's greatest need, i'd say it was put to a reasonably effective use.  Rand's use of the Eye made him realize that he was able to channel, which in turn led to his realization of his identity--the dragon reborn.  So, in a sense, the Eye helped him realize his destiny (what a retarded word) and sent him on his way to preparing for the last battle.  This is stretching a bit far, but perhaps if he had not used it, no one would have been able to convince him that he could channel.  I mean, would you want to believe without solid proof that you were eventually going to go insane?  The depletion of the Eye was the proof and so Rand was forced to face facts.  <br /><br />and that's my confusing spiel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-23 13:34:45
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
I tend to disagree because if the theory is correct then the eye must be accesed/drained for the seals to begin weakening, but Balthamel is the one who acceses pure saidin, Rand doesn't touch it before any forsaken escape, which means the seals were weakening before the &quot;buffer&quot; is removed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shalashaska</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-23 16:52:52
subject: <b>I voted yes, but on second thought it's a definite NO.</b>
body:
If nothing else, Balthamel and Aginor broke free <i>before</i> the Eye had been even touched (other than Mat's throwing the rock in anyways). Aginor was the first to channel from it and then Rand took it from him and his channeling depleted it. We know that this was not its intended purpose - RJ has said so. However, the seals were obviously weaking prior to the Eye's depletion as Aginor and Balthamel broke free before then.<br /><br />I would have to say that it was just the cumulative buildup of the Taint on saidin over three thousand years that finally weakened the seals to their current state. The escape of the Forsaken may have accelerated it, but it had to have already been happening or they would not have broken free.<br /><br />Perhaps the the Eye helped keep the seals from deteriorating more quickly than they did and with its depletion the deterioration accelerated, but it was defintely happening prior to the depletion of the Eye or Aginor and Balthamel would not have escaped.<br /><br />It's fairly certain that the Dragon Reborn was meant to find the Eye given what it hid, but as to why they made it and what its purpose was I haven't a clue. Either way, while your theory is a good one, it has a fatal flaw.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 01:45:20
subject: <b>could be</b>
body:
I think we can explain the fact that the seals were already weakened and two forsaken managed to escape them:<br />why do you need  a pool of pure saidin to keep the seals intact?<br />I imagine that the DO tainted saidin at the moment of the seals completion, just before he was cut out of the rest of the world. if this is true than the seals were intrinsicaly tainted since their creation and so not fool-proof.<br />what the eye-makers tried to do was to create a pure saidin pool on which the seals could tap to maintain themselves instead of the tainted general saidin.<br />if this is true than as time would pass more and more of the saidin in the pool would be depleted and when it would reach a certain level the saidin flow from the pool to the seals(probably mediated through the seal trapped inside) would become weaker and so general tainted saidin would start to seep into the seals.<br />when rand&amp;co. first see the pool it is only at half strengh so this could be the reason for it.<br />I imagine the eye makers imagined that the great dragon reborn will use the pool to solve the problems of the seals either through the cleansin of saidin in the world or by somehow healing the seals of their faults but instead he used it to defeat one regular shadow-army, kill one mediocre forsaken and weaken the chief of staff forsaken thereby allowing spring to return(the most important achievement he did on the eye in my opinion).<br />although rand failed to see the larger picture he was not alone in it: moiraine was so impressed at what he did achieve she thought of him as some kind of superman. also and more importantly Aginor wasted the eye on returning his body to its youthfulness and trying to kill rand instead of using it to destroy all the seals in one fell swoop. that is why the DO was so annoyed with him and gave him that lame body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 04:06:50
subject: <b>Oh, and about the gaps....</b>
body:
The only reason that there were &quot;gaps&quot; in the ward around Callandor was that that was where the part of it made from saidin was. It's like you have cloth made from two colors, but men can only see one (the other is invisible to them) and women can see the other (and of course the one the men can see, they can't). As such, if either a man or a woman say it, they would see holes, since it was made of two types of thread and they can see only one of the types.<br /><br />If, however, it were only made from one type, there would be no holes. It would be all of one color - one type of thread. Then if the color was the men's color, they could see it and the women could see nothing. If it was the women's color, they they would see it and the men would see nothing.<br /><br />There are no gaps in cloth. In this case, it's just that certain people see certain colors/threads, so if multiple types are used, there appear to be gaps since no one can see all the fabric. If, however, it is of one type, you either see it or you don't. There are no gaps in the cloth. It's just a matter of what you can see.<br /><br />Callandor was protected by a ward of both sides of the Power thus there were &quot;gaps&quot; to the eyes of both men and women since they can't see the weaves/threads of the other. The seals would have no gaps in them due to a lack of saidar. It's just that no woman could have ssen the threads involved. It was the taint that caused the problems with the seals, not gaps in them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 05:48:47
subject: <b>Why, you ask, are the seals weakening?</b>
body:
It is quite obvious that the &quot;super-aes sedai&quot; of the Age of Legends were quite knowleadgeable, but are fallible, and DON'T know EVERYTHING... this is so obvious people who haven't realized by now should be smacked senseless by a staff a.k.a. Gandalf to Denethor style. You CANNOT break, weaken, crumble, damage, or otherwise harm Callandor with the use of ANY FORCE WHATSOEVER!!!!! IT ONLY SERVES TEH PURPOSE OF FURTHER STRENGTHENING IT! even the Dark One's &quot;mojo&quot; would not work. Thus, the only way to get rid of em or whatever, is to suck, pull, sap, draw, or otherwise take, power OUT OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OBVIOUSLY, THE DARK ONE IS DOING THIS! therefore, as harrid fel said, Rand must &quot;clear away the rubble before you can build&quot; via note. Not to mention the fact that the Age of Legends aes sedai DID know of other worlds, and some had even been there. Moghedien lets this slip during one of her many confrontations with Nynaeve in Tel'aran'rhiod, thus, any sort of Light-side version of Shayol Ghul might not even be on earth... well, comments? if so, please post but also send to: ngwharuka@yahoo.com <br /><br />thanks a bunch for your time<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 12:53:10
subject: <b>The making of cuendillar</b>
body:
does not appear to require both halves of the One Power. (At least the rebel Aes Sedai seem to be able to produce it without the aid of men in CoT.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 17:10:26
subject: <b>Quite right, Haruka</b>
body:
I have a theory here (When Cuendillar Crumbles) which describes exactly what you say.<br /><br />While cuendillar can be made by women alone, as Egwene's group are doing, the focus points for the Seals on the Dark One's prison were made by men and women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 18:26:36
subject: <b>Sorry Linda Sedai, but you're mistaken</b>
body:
The theory about crumbling cuendillar could very well be true. The idea of sucking out its strength instead of blasting it is certainly an interesting one. But women were <i>not</i> involved in the sealing of the Bore in any way shape or form. <i>Men</i> attacked Shayol Ghul and <i>men</i> put the seals in place. It was men and men only that created the seals. I don't know where you go the idea that women were involved, but the Guide (among other things) makes it <i>quite</i> clear that the women refused to have anything to do with LTT's plan to seal the Bore. As such, women were <i>not</i> involved in making the seals. Saidin and saidin only was tainted because it was men and men only that were involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 19:27:22
subject: <b>The women's refusal to have nothing to do with the sealing</b>
body:
of the DO's prison occurred after the Seals were made, as the guide indicates. The discs were made, then there was a considerable period of arguing before the women refused to have nothing to do with the plan and then another period before LTT's group went to Seal the bore. The cuendillar discs were thus made long before the event.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 03:49:49
subject: <b>my .02</b>
body:
I have to agree with Kalessin; the fact that the Dark One wasn't able to taint saidar suggests that the seals were made by saidin only.<br /><br />An analogy, if you'll bear with me. Imagine a wall separating the DO from the rest of Randland. Lanfear and Beidomon and the other Collam Daan moffa foos manage to make a hole in this wall, allowing the DO to touch the world a little. LTT and company patch it up with the seals, or 'saidin bricks'. The DO then taints saidin through the bricks (maybe like how Sauron puts his power into the Ring).<br /><br />If saidar was used in the seals, the DO'd be able to taint it too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 07:35:49
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
The &quot;seals&quot; - the heartstone discs - are only the focus points for the seals.  They are just heartstone.  I find it unlikely that the taint's presence in Saidin has anything to do with the foci themselves.  I think it has to do with the fact that the seals themselves were created with saidin only.<br /><br />One thing I think we've missed in this discussion is the limited nature of Eye.  Yeah, it held some cool stuff, but basically it was a reservoir (like the kind the gang take into Far Madding, but bigger) that held pure saidin.  Yeah, there was a lot of saidin in it, but not much compared to what Rand can draw through Callandor, let alone the big crystal dude.<br /><br />I don't understand why the Eye was so desirable to the bad guys.  They could draw as much saidin as they wanted free of any taint-related concerns.  Why did they need the eye.  Why didn't Aginor just fix himself up with the OP normally?  <br /><br />So the Eye held one seal and the Horn.  Tons of men and women died to keep these safe from the DO?  It makes no sense, especially since they could have just as easily warded these objects like Callandor was warded -- without the whole dying bit.  This leads me to conclude that the presence of a decent amount of pure Saidin was important.  But for what reason?  I haven't seen anything here that really answers that question to my satisfaction.  My own theory, though also unsatisfactory, is that the Eye had something to do with teaching Rand how to cleanse Saidin.  <br /><br />Anyway, that's my two cents.


created: 2004-08-26 23:20:28
subject: <b>To FisherKing -</b>
body:
<b>'The &quot;seals&quot; - the heartstone discs - are only the focus points for the seals. They are just heartstone. I find it unlikely that the taint's presence in Saidin has anything to do with the foci themselves. I think it has to do with the fact that the seals themselves were created with saidin only.'</b><br /><br />Look, that's exactly my point. If its not the seals that's linking saidin to the DO (and I'm assuming here that the taint is some kind of TP 'layer'), then what else is there that can connect the two to each other? If the DO doesn't necessarily need a physical conduit (ie seals) to taint saidin, then why not taint saidar too?<br /><br />I'm just following the train of logic here. LTT seals the DO, the DO taints saidin. If the DO could've done that without the seals, he'd have done it a long time before actual War of the Shadow (or of Power, I keep getting mixed up). There was a hundred-year gap between the start of the Collapse and the Sealing.<br /><br />On a side note, look up the other EotW theory posted a couple of weeks ago (the reason why I think this theory is a bit derivative, like all my posts /heh). I think I saw something similar to what you're saying about the 'cleansing-of-saidin tutorial' angle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-26 23:22:01
subject: <b>Clever theory</b>
body:
Whether or not you're correct, I like the concept you present here. More than that, you summed up my thoughts on the Eye of the World. I could never figure it out except that they killed a lot of channelers to create something seemingly so obscure yet important. The Eye has to be crucial somehow, maybe it still is, because it seemed made for something so specific. The Horn of Valere was there, along with a seal, but, if it was just to guard those things, then why not put all the seals in the Eye? Seems a safer bet than the Tower or the Hall of the Servants was.<br /><br />I've always wondered if the Eye was made to help Rand keep his sanity. Early on in his channeling, he gets the good stuff - Saidin Untainted&#8482;, right off the tap. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Maybe there was something that the original Aes Sedai did to use the Eye as a type of panacea for him. Why else use male and female channelers for something so exclusive to the male half?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-28 21:56:34
subject: <b>To:Fisher&amp;Leandro</b>
body:
For the the fact of saidar not being tainted through the seals think on this. All of the forsaken, when near the bore in Shayol Ghul, fear of even holding the source near it. Also when the seals are created the description of the taint is a counterstrike before the seal was closed. Therefore maybe the DO couldn't taint the OP without someone directly channeling near him or at him whichever the case. This would also explain why the 13 companions instantly went insane while the rest of male aes sedai took a little longer.<br />   Then for the case of how the seals are being broken. For guttering flames idea it could be on the right track but why would the seals still be channeling the OP. As I see it the seals are focus points for a sort of &quot;shield&quot; over the bore. And that the seals are connected to each tied off point in the shield. This could explain the seals feeling evil and filthy- ie: the DO is working to untie the shield.<br />    IMO, I don't think the method of how heartstone was made matters since in the end it's still heartstone. <br />I've been reading these theorys for months now but this one actually intrigued me to make an account,thnx.


created: 2004-09-02 05:36:08
subject: <b>Just a further thought</b>
body:
Heartstone itself has a very unique property that everyone seems to be overlooking. The more energy put forth at it the more energy it absorbs and the stronger it becomes. <br /><br />Thus my theory. <br /><br />The seals were weakening due to the taint on saidin and the aes sedai of the age of legends realized this. So using the property of heartstone that they knew they created a pool of saidin to perpetually keep at least this one seal strong, until the dragon could be reborn and be sent forth to combat the darkone/chosen. We know that the pool puts forth some kind of energy (it destroyed the pebble) and since the seals were made by men, it seams to me that the seal needed to be powered by a pure/cleansing force of saidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think blinding the eye of the world means exactly that. Getting rid of the pure saidin keeping that particular seal strong thus inevitably holding the dark one at bay. <br /><br />The reason the forsaken want to draw the power from it is simple. Remove the energy and thus allowing to seal to weaken.  Also, I believe that being that close to pure saidin was like having a mini-angreal of somekind until it ran out. <br /><br />


created: 2004-09-02 15:08:46
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Never thought of it like that. While the properties of heartstone very well might have saved the seal that was at the eye (just how was the pool channeling into it, or whatever it was doin) the rest of the heartstone seals seemed to have lost those properties as they were being destroyed. IE: When (dang forgot who) peeled off a sliver of cuendillar with a knife. And for the pebble being destroyed, since it is a pool of saidin maybe its form is almost acidlike. It could've been a power source of some kind but, Jordan never mentions anything other than the Aes Sedai from AOL creating a pure pool of saidin; then again he could've left something out to imply a number of things and screw with our heads.


created: 2004-09-12 02:04:17
subject: <b>Colourful Cuendillar</b>
body:
Seeing as everyone seems to be giving their '2 cents' here, you can have my 2 as well:<br /><br />I'm not convinced that the seals were made exclusively by male channelers, because of their colour. All heartstone made by Egwene and her group so far is white; at one stage, I think Leanne is described as making an object 'appear to be dipped in milk', and when Egwene makes it, it turns white instantly.<br /><br />As we know, the seals are black and white, like a yin/yang sign. And given all the other opposite references (White Tower, Black Tower, Male, Female, Saidin, Saidar etc) I think it is reasonable to assume that when somebody creates cuendillar with saidin, it is black.<br /><br />If this is true, then the seals were created with both genders working together, and does not preclude the mission's failure, because the cooperation did not continue.<br /><br />Apologies if this colour issue has been discussed already.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-14 23:15:53
subject: <b>Seals were already weak.</b>
body:
When Rand and friends got to the Eye, Aginor and Balthamel  were already there. If the seals were weakened by Rand using the Eye, they would not have been there, much less have Aginor battle Rand using the pool of Saidin from the Eye of the World.


created: 2004-09-20 10:15:43
subject: <b>Seems nearly right.</b>
body:
Seems like a good theory but it has a few problems. LIke the only used saidin in the making of the bore so where would the &quot;gaps&quot; be coming from. Also I think that blinding the eye of the world would mean that he meant to taint it. Whenever they are reaching for saidin it's like reaching through filth to get to it. If he puts the taint on the eye of the world it would be like shoving a bunch of filth in someones eyes thus blinding them. SO instead of the pure power that they saw it would have a black covering over it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I suspected it might come to you and me. You are young. Let us see what is required to earn the heron on this side of the ocean.<br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...           -Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-19 13:56:44
subject: <b>The Taint Corrupts everything made by Saidin</b>
body:
After sealing the Dark One in his prison with the seven disks it wasn't long until Aes Sedai realized that the male half of the source was tainted by the backlash.  <br />My theory is that the taint slowly corrupts things made by saidin over time.  That's the reason The Ways have become corrupt.  They were made only by male Aes Sedai who sought refuge from the taint in Steddings.<br />The seals made by LTT and the 100 companions were made with the tainted Saidin and are slowly deteriorating.  The Eye of the World's purpose was to supply a pure source of Saidin to be used by the Dragon Reborn to re-forge the seals with female Aes Sedai and Saidar to make true unbreakable seals that were pure and untainted.<br />While the Seven Seals were one option to seal the DO's prison there were those oppose to LTT plan.  They in turn were ones who constructed the Choedan Kal.  The Choedan Kal's purpose was to create a force field around the land to hold back the blight.  <br />Even though neither the Eye of the World or the Choeden Kal are used by Rand as their makers from the Age of Legends intended they will still accomplish the goal they were created for.  Sealing the DO&#8217;s prison. <br />


created: 2005-08-10 13:57:46
subject: <b>Theory has large &quot;gap&quot;</b>
body:
Sorry, but the gap thing just doesn't work.  The &quot;gaps&quot; in the ward around Callandor were only there because there was something to fill them, namely saidin.  Had the ward been made just with saidar, Egwene would have perceived it as &quot;whole,&quot; but it would have been weaker (strongest works use both saidin and saidar).  Regular wards have no gaps, so why should the patch on the DO's prison?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2009-07-09 14:30:04
subject: <b>Hm</b>
body:
I'm not sure that using seals is the way to seal the Bore. I think the seals are what has prevented the Bore from being healed naturally. When Fel mentions clearing out the rubble, I believe he's saying that the seals need to be completely removed - and that through order and belief (in addition to some other things naturally) the Pattern will heal itself. <br /><br />Good theory though!


created: 2004-08-24 03:14:38
subject: <b>makes sense to me...</b>
body:
Of course this theory could go on forever, each 'dragon' hearing the voice of the previous one all the way back to where you started. unless of course LTT and Rand are the only ones to go mad, but personally I think the maddness could just be part of the whole 'dragon' identity. Each incarnations strength or weakness coming from their fight (or not) with the last incarnation. <br /><br />Ohh! is this the first post? YAY!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />ook<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />ook<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ook-ook ook ook EEEK!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> nice doggy...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 03:49:34
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Actually, in the later books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" />-10, if I remember correctly ), Rand does hear this third voice. And, I think someone already posted a similar theory. <br /><br />Damn smiley.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 04:13:16
subject: <b>The third one is probably a past Dragon but LTT didn't hear voices</b>
body:
The third one is probably a past Dragon but LTT didn't hear voices when he was alive. The taint causes the voices. Cadsuane said that men who channel sometimes hear voices. The fact that Rand has LTT in his head and not just any old voice shows that it's the voices of past lives that show up in the channeler's head. He is the Dragon Reborn, so he has the Dragon in his head when he gets a voice in his head. But it is the <i>taint</i> that causes the voice. As such, LTT would not have heard such a voice - certainly not prior to the strike at Shayol Ghul - as the taint was not yet on saidin and could not have affected him and brought on the voice.<br /><br />As such, yes, the third face is almost certainly the Dragon before LTT, but it is the taint that caused the phenomenon, thus LTT didn't have a voice in his head. But as Rand <i>does</i> (or <i>did</i>) have to deal with the taint, he gets a voice in his head. It's obviously not the only way that the taint affects channelers, but it's one of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 05:38:56
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
what page, in what book, in what chapter, does lews mention this mysterious third entity? i've been looking forever and i KNOW it exists... but i can't seem to find it! any help?!?!?!<br /><br /><br />thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 11:18:56
subject: <b>Lews Therin and the Great Red Dragon</b>
body:
Sure, there was a Dragon prior to Lews Therin. Lews Therin had indicated that he did not like being named Dragon in his time. This indicates a memory of the previous Dragon in the Age of Legends, a memory that inspired the people but was actually negative in LTT's opinion.<br /><br />If our Age is supposed to end with a terrible disaster, giving way to the Age of Legends, it would be ended by a Dragon in the world of the Wheel of Time. Look for the Great Red Dragon in our Christian prophecies.<br /><br />I'm still not sure that the Third Destroyer was this Red Dragon. I'm also not sure if the Third Destroyer was Moridin. Not enough info to go on. Of course, that doesn't stop us from speculating, yes?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 12:01:28
subject: <b>Voices and the Taint</b>
body:
Yes, Cadsuane said that men who can channel sometimes hear voices because of the Taint. The question is if that is the reason that Rand is hearing voices. After all, after reading a good many fantasy books (espcially WoT and HP) you realize that quite often authors have their characters say things that aren't true to throw readers off. Just because Cadsuane said that was what happened to some men doesn't mean that Rand can only hear Lews Therin because of the Taint. <br /><br />Okay, that was my bit. Don't flame me please. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 12:17:53
subject: <b>third voice</b>
body:
We all can agree that the voices of LTT and the other one are caused by the taint...but if so, why are some of the things he says so completely historically accurate? Asmodean and Lanfear both noticed that Rand talked like LTT from time to time, and LTT ravings include true facts about Sammael, battle of the AoL etc etc...there must be a theory on this somewhere....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 12:27:02
subject: <b>Lews Therin</b>
body:
At the very start of the first book LTT doesn't definitely die. He just disappears and the dark one screams in frustration. Can't remember where he re-appears off the top of my head but he merges with Rand. This has always indicated to me that yes 'The dragons blood will stain the rocks of Shayol Goul' but it will be LTT and not Rand that dies. I seem to remember Egwene having a true dream about Rand teaching Aviendha to swim in the two rivers while Elayne and Min watched. I have often thought that it may be Hawkwing himself who is the third voice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 14:32:23
subject: <b>He must have died</b>
body:
He explains that his skin is on fire , and he very obviously drew on too much Power. He wouldn't have survived.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 15:22:41
subject: <b>Right,</b>
body:
Sightblinder_999, I think the general idea is that while the Taint is the cause of the voice of Lews Therin, the memories are still there, but the taint 'thins' the 'wall' between past lives, or some such <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'll just paste the link with the ideas.<br /><br />http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.6_lews.html<br /><br />And about the Third Destroyer.<br /><br />http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.7_thirdman.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 18:22:46
subject: <b>The Third voice IS Moridin/Ishamael</b>
body:
The Third voice being a previous dragon or some kind of Rand/Lews combination just doesn't make sense within the plot.  I'll bet someone all my wSe points that it is Moridin/Ishamael.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 19:59:22
subject: <b>huh?</b>
body:
darroncullen, i have no idea what you're talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 08:11:17
subject: <b>Sounds good enough</b>
body:
Just as in real live, there can be several reasons why people hear voices. (Drugs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, fatigue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />, psychological reasons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />etc.)<br /><br />The taint seems to be a reason in WoT, so is being someone reborn.<br /><br />The idea that the third voice is the voice of the Dragon before Lewis seems as plossible as the next theory. So thumbs up!<br /><br />Sponge B.


created: 2004-08-26 09:12:49
subject: <b>Rand and LTT will become one- a third</b>
body:
Here's my two cents:<br />Rand al'Thor is a separate person with a personality, history, likes/dislikes, etc.<br />LTT is a separate person with a personality, history, likes/dislikes, etc.<br />these are two men, one soul.  they're both becoming closer and closer over time.  At one point they were separate and now, they are drawing upon each other to survive, etc. (Rand using LTT's drawing ability or playing AOL songs on the flute, LTT intuitively showing Rand how to use the One Power or giving him knowledge that only LTT would know about the forsaken). <br /> I don't have the books with me but I've been under the impression for a while that Rand/LTT will eventually become one, and form a &quot;new&quot; or &quot;third&quot; person in the process.  A Dragon with the history, personality, knowledge, likes/dislikes of both and the fusion of it all will create a different, yet recognizable, person.  He will still go by Rand but the war inside his head will be over because they (Rand and LTT) will have both won (or lost, your view).<br />RAFO about the past struggles and now how things just happen versus 'get out of my head&quot;.<br />My thoughts, comments?<br /><br />Nikolai al Farran<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-26 10:19:58
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Would this other &quot;voice&quot; have a voice as well as there is all ways an age before hand that has a Dragon. So would you not have a loop of voices. I hope you can follow what I am getting at.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> A Wise Man Once Said,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /><br />Are You Naturally Stupid Or Is It Something You Learnt.<br />P.s.  A wise man is a bit like a wise woman but with less adjusting of shawls, <br />less sniffing and generally makes a lot more sense. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-26 23:29:46
subject: <b>sidious</b>
body:
I agree that Lews Therin died, but I've often wondered if it was <i>how</i> he died that's caused him to be in Rand's head. Not that it makes much sense, but I've always equated the bolt of light that he killed himself with him trying to balefire himself. What would someone as crucial as Lews Therin balefiring himself do to the Pattern? Is it even possible to balefire onesself? <br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Oh, and if it wasn't balefire...then Rand needs to learn that weave. It'd be killer to take into battle. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-27 03:33:23
subject: <b>a problem with the Ages</b>
body:
I have a problem believing that this 3rd voice is another Dragon.  Here's my reasoning.  The Wheel supposedly has 6 ages to every turning.  If the current Age is the 3rd age, then the Age of Legends was most likely the 1st Age. This means that LTT was not a Dragon Reborn, but the 1st Dragon of this Turning of the Wheel, and Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  LTT can't be the rebirth of the previous Dragon because it is the 1st Age (the previous Dragon to him would have been a Dragon Reborn).  It seems to me that the Dragon is meant to live and die twice with each turning, but that when the 1st Age comes again, things sorta start over.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">nesguy<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;The Far Snows&quot;...&quot;A Lily in Winter&quot;...<br />::sniff::<br />I thought these books were supposed to be epic tales of heroism...<br /><br />but they keep making me feel SAPPY!!!<br /><br />::BAWLS OUT-OF-CONTROL::</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-27 07:30:29
subject: <b>dont think so...</b>
body:
&quot;Age of Legends was most likely the 1st Age.&quot;<br /><br />And why do you think that? Jordan has written an explicit account of what happened from the end of the Age of Legends, until the present time, (in the series, of course). That makes me quite certain that there was another age before the AoL in this turning of the wheel.


created: 2004-08-27 14:46:19
subject: <b>corrections</b>
body:
nesguy: The Age of Legends is the age before the Third Age (the time of Rand), so it was the second Age. The First Age is supposed to be our time. In RJ's world, time is NOT linear. Time is a wheel that repeats itself. Each book has stated that in the first paragraph: &quot;The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.&quot;<br /><br />Figuring that the First Age is our time, it makes sense that the gleeman Thom Merrilin talked of &quot;Alsbet the Queen of All&quot; (Queen Elizabeth), &quot;Anla the Wise Counselor&quot; (Ann Landers), the giants Mosk and Merk fighting each other (Moscow and America), etc.<br /><br />Crazy ol Lews Therin: RJ has said that Lews Therin did not balefire himself. He only &quot;overdosed&quot; on the One Power, burning himself out, killing himself.<br /><br />Rand knew how to weave balefire. That's how he killed Rahvin in Caemlyn, Darkhounds in Rhuidean, the Maiden Liah in Shadar Logoth while trying to kill Sammael. While he's willing to murder Forsaken with balefire, he cannot use it in battle. Moiraine and Cadsuane forbade him from ever weaving balefire, for good reason. Using balefire a lot, especially in battles, is EXTREMELY dangerous and capable of unraveling reality itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-27 17:48:09
subject: <b>Keep it simple</b>
body:
I also couldn&#8217;t find were it states that LTT had a voice in his head and Rand couldn&#8217;t hear it.  We have all seen the theories about Rand &amp; LTT, I feel everybody is trying to make it more complicated instead of keeping it simple.  I for one have not been able to accept the theory of two souls in one body.<br /><br />I think LTT speaking in Rand&#8217;s head and helping him during the initial steps of channeling and controlling the one power is a manifestation of the pattern.  <br />What I mean is that Prophesies are road signs on the path to a specific destination.  The closer you follow the signs the closer you will get to the projected destination.  The Pattern has installed LTT into Rand so he can continue to follow the path and help deal with unforeseen issues that may prohibit Rand from (1) getting to TG and (2) Winning the last battle.  <br /><br />Basically LTT is the pattern ensuring Rand is ready to accomplish the task he was born for. Everything from trying to take control of the power to ranting about killing the ashamen, is LTT/Pattern preparing Rand and keeping him on his toes, always pushing because Rand cannot be caught slipping.  If there is a 3rd voice, it has to have a function or purpose.  I do not see how it can fit into the equation. Could be that the pattern wants Rand to believe it is normal for the Dragon to have a bunch of personalities in his noggin.<br /><br />The issue about Causuane knowing about other male channelers hearing voices, I agree that could be the taint.  I do not think every man who can channel hears voices.  The voices that some hear could be their minds way adjusting and dealing with the taint.  I would assume that it could vary from person to person.  Also there is nothing that states just because you can channel that you have to be sane in the first place.  <br />


created: 2004-08-28 15:38:29
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
Err i think the weave that the guy was talking about wasnt balefire that would be awsome in battle he was talking about the weave LLT used to kill himself and raise DragonMount<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watch out! Its the kid who cant speel <br />|<br />And remember kids always drink till you cant think!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-28 15:49:39
subject: <b>the voice is caused by the taint?</b>
body:
I haven't got the books with me so I can't check, but doesn't Rand hear LTT in his head in CoT after the taint is removed, and he definately does just after, when LTT says 'pure and clean again'. If this is the case then maybe the taint is not the cause of the voice?<br /><br />As for what Cadsuane says, that many male channelers hear voices, I don't think that she really has dealt with THAT many channelers, and so her experiences cannot apply to all male channelers in general.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-29 02:18:35
subject: <b>prolly right...</b>
body:
ok, i can agree with the Age of Legends being the 2nd Age of this turning of the Wheel, but no one addressed what I said about Rand.  I still maintain that the Dragon lives and dies twice per age, but after that it starts over.<br /><br />however, what i can't agree with is that the 1st Age is supposed to be our time. Granted RJ makes some allusions to what could be time-dilluted names of our world, but he's always said these books don't pull from any specific source (i.e. it's not a Celtic Legend or Christian Legend, etc.)  but that his books pull from a myriad of things that he's read.  it would seem out of character for him to suddenly have all this be a prediction of the future for us.<br /><br />Also, if you can point me to a quote or interview where he says that time in WoT isn't linear I would really like to see that for myself.  Quoting the opening line of the books is all well and good, but you seem to have missed the point just a little.  The Wheel of Time itself is not what dictates how things go in a particular age, but the Pattern of the Ages that the wheel spins does.  When the end of the 6th Age rolls around, I don't think everyone disappears and things just start completely over...more like the Pattern begins to shape things into a repeat of the 1st age.  Just because there is a pattern to the way history in WoT plays out doesn't mean it isn't linear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">nesguy<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;The Far Snows&quot;...&quot;A Lily in Winter&quot;...<br />::sniff::<br />I thought these books were supposed to be epic tales of heroism...<br /><br />but they keep making me feel SAPPY!!!<br /><br />::BAWLS OUT-OF-CONTROL::</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-30 17:56:05
subject: <b>Response to nesguy</b>
body:
Here's the quote you requested:<br /><br />&quot;The characters in the books are the source of many of our myths and legends and we are the source of many of theirs. You can look two ways along a wheel.&quot; [RJ, America Online chat, 28 June, 1996]<br /><br />&quot;Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future and in our past, depending on which way you look...&quot; [RJ, America Online conference, 20 October, 1994]<br /><br />For more insight into the nature of Time and the Dragon in WoT, you can look into the Big White Book (The World of the Wheel of Time). It explains how Ages keep returning, but doesn't repeat themselves exactly. There's always a bit of deviation in the turnings. Actually, the more deviation there is, the more need for ta'verens that the Wheel has to return the Pattern to the original design as much as possible. So you could say that since we have 3 ta'verens in the books instead of the prophesied one ta'veren, the Wheel is in serious trouble.<br /><br />It is assumed that each Age ends or begins with a Dragon being born or reborn, as indicated by Lews Therin, Rand and our own prophesied Messiah (check out the prophecies of each major religion in the world...you'll find there's a messiah/Savior destined to save the world in a great and terrible war with evil). If you want, I could supply you with such information.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-31 10:49:10
subject: <b>oh...</b>
body:
Ablar, LTT's voice still could be a result of the Taint even tho he is still present after the cleansing.  RJ has clearly said that the madness can be stopped but not cured...any man who has already started going mad will stop the process because of the cleansing but he will not go back to completely sane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-31 22:11:40
subject: <b>the voices</b>
body:
Ok, here's the deal; I always assumed that the voice of LTT was caused by the wound in Rand's side, given to him by Ishmael during their battle above Falme. The voice was not heard before that, but started to appear soon after. Hence I think that the voice, whether it is real or not, is caused by the cyst of evil left in Rand's side by Ishmael's staff. (possible plot by the Shadow, to make Rand think he is going insane, throw him off balance, or yet to be explained reasons). Now, the voice if LTT doesn't make any mention of a third voice, until after Rand is slashed across his old wound, by Fain's Shadar Logoth dagger. Therefore, it seems to me that the third voice would have something to do with that evil place and Mordeth, who is connected to everything that was within that city, down to the last pebble. The voice of LTT talks about the 3 destroyers... if Rand is one, and LTT is another (killed his family... possible Shadow plot within Rand now),... then logically the Third Destroyer could be Mordeth, contained inside Rand's wound (sealed there by Flinn during Rand's healing). Ok this very well could have been written better, and probably as it's own theory, but it's what came to mind after reading this theory and everyone's responses. Don't mean to steal the limelight or anything! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-09-03 04:28:00
subject: <b>voices from the taint</b>
body:
In my opinion, the &quot;voices&quot; a man who channels will hear when going mad are not voices like Lews that Rand is hearing, but rather abstract voices that urge killing and destruction. My source for this opinion is the voices of Machin Shin, the Black Wind in the Ways, chanting &quot;break the bones, drink the blood&quot;, etc. This seems logical to me because it was male aes sedai, going mad from the taint, who created the Ways in the first place, and it is postulated that the Ways are disentegrating from the Taint incorporated in their very foundation.<br /><br />I also believe that the voice of Lews Therin Telamon in Rand's head is simply an exception in the typical reincarnation of a WOT hero. LTT died under extreme emotional duress, knowing he had gone mad and destroyed his wife and family, and I suspect this made his soul not go peacefully towards rebirth. Think about the theory that &quot;ghosts&quot; stay around because they have died a painful death that ties them to a place. Well, I suspect that what is supposed to happen...a soul being reborn with no memory of its past lives...is  disrupted by the powerful emotion and violence associated with the deal of LTT. There is only one soul that keeps being reborn as the &quot;dragon&quot;, but in this case the current dragon will have to reconcile with his past life. I believe it will make Rand stronger when he can accept and assimilate LTT, because only then will he become whole. <br /><br />It is also of interest to note that all of the Forsaken thought that LTT would be very literally reborn, with the same memories and manerisms, etc. I can't help but wonder if they had some type of knowledge to back their expectations? Based on the superior knowledge and technology of their age, I would not be surprised if they had a reason to think that LTT would be reincarnated just like he was before he died.<br /><br />As for the &quot;third man&quot; inside Rand's head, I think this is probably too literal of an approach to take to understanding what is going on. Rand is one manifestation of a soul that has had many lives. LTT is another. It is acceptance and reconciliation that will solve the problem.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-04 15:01:41
subject: <b>No one will believe this, but...</b>
body:
I submitted this same theory about a year ago and Burr turned it down.  However, I do think you are probably right, and as time progresses Rand will be able to drawn on the experiences and knowledge of even more Dragons.  In the Prologue to Book 1, Ishamael mentions them having fought this battle thousands of times, and I believe he mocked LTT for his inability to remember their previous encounters.  Perhaps this time it will be different


created: 2004-09-04 15:08:07
subject: <b>Forgot something</b>
body:
This third Dragon will also know how to seal the DO as he was sealed before the AOL.  In the AOL, the only reason the DO broke free was because someone liberated him.  The Third Dragon's seal was clearly better than LTT's because there was no decay over time, and the DO had little to no influence on the real world


created: 2005-10-20 17:27:07
subject: <b>The Third Voice - Probably Moridin</b>
body:
The &quot;Third Voice&quot; Lews Therin rants about is not an imaginary feature.<br /><br />In Knife of Dreams, Rand SEES a face when he seizes saidin.  I'm not looking for the direct quotes and pages here, so I don't have a theory posted. Yet.<br /><br />BUT: I recall from reading that Rand catches a familiar face, AND that when seizing saidin one of the few times in the book, he catches sight of black streaks racing across his vision... Saa anyone?  Those streaks fit the description offered by the Forsaken on the flecks in Moridin's eyes.<br /><br />This particular development (of a third face) and of Rand's difficulty in seizing saidin trace back to Shadar Logoth when he crossed beams of balefire with Moridin, providing the source of this link.  Although I'm not sure exactly how the bloody thing works.<br /><br />That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


created: 2006-01-03 15:10:25
subject: <b>Rand as the third voice?</b>
body:
I'm new to the WoT, but my gut instinct was that it seemed sometimes that Lews Therin believes Rand is the voice in his head. Specifically when Lews Therin makes a deal with Rand to relinquish saidin in KoD as long as they will die at Shayol Ghul. Lews Therin does not seem to pay attention to Rand many of the times Rand tries to communicate with him, but what would you do if you thought you were hearing voices? Also Lews Therin saying in the trolloc attack in KoD that he can't lift his hands indicates that he thinks Rand's body is his and would seem to indicate that he could also think that his mind has priority and Rand is the voice of a madman in him. There are also other instances where it seems Lews Therin is responding to something that Rand is thinking. This may be unfounded intuition, but there it is.


created: 2007-11-12 09:07:54
subject: <b>Dragon Theory</b>
body:
Ok I'm new to this, but here goes.<br /><br /><br />The third &quot;voice&quot; that was never heard by Rand, is actually the &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot;.  But it's not a &quot;voice&quot;, its another person as stated by LTT severaltimes.  If you remember in Book eleven Rand again sees a man, who he says looks akin to him, but not.  That will be the result when Rand and LTT finally merge and he comes to terms with himself as the &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot;.  He will be cold as steel as necessarry, but he will have both LTT's knowledge of the One Power, but he will still be Rand technically.  HE will just &quot;steel&quot; himself and become what he thinks he needs to be to win TD.  As for him dying, yes the Dragon Reborn will die, but Rand will live.  Again in Book Eleven,  Rand doesn't tell everyone what he was told by Aelfinn and  Elfinn.  He asked what he had to do to win TD and still survive.  They told him, he had to die to live.  Therefore, when Rand finally becomes the &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot;, yes he will die, but he will survive at the same time to teach Aviendha to swim in the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Like I said, I'm no expert, but that does make complete sense to me.  If you look at the other theories, it ties them all while still being plausible for the story line and the &quot;Prophecies of the Dragon&quot; as stated in bits and pieces throughout the series.  Robert Jordan is a genius to tie this all in while still keeping vague as to what is going on, but putting the obvious out while still keeping the neccesary hidden in the context of the story.  Re-read the books and little things begin to pop out that wasn't caught the first time around because you know what's happening already.  But you also see for the first time exactly how he put it in there without giving it away completely.  Key example, when they left the Two Rivers and they were riding.  He kept Bella going and then he got sick.  Never noticed it till it was mentioned by Moiraine.  I went and re-read the book and it was slapping me in the face.  YOU NEVER KNOW.


created: 2008-08-13 15:51:54
subject: <b>Another Dragon...</b>
body:
What do y'all think of this?<br />This is all speculation-<br />LTT voice may be a little taint and a little real, perhaps the madness of the taint will break down the barriers that prevent the personallity of one soul from remembering its previous life.  Myself, if I could remember pervious lives i would think I'm nuts, so not remembering a previous life could be a nutural defence mech to keep you sane.  But being a little mad that may not be the case.<br />The third voice is the dragon previous to LTT.  Maybe in LTT's life after the taint he heard the voice of the previous dragon.  Then He kills himself, and Rand is eventually born.  Rand becomes affected by the taint, and LTT is set loose. LTT is aware now of three beings, The Third Voice, himself and Rand; where in his own life he was aware of two.  Now Rand is aware of two, and only knows of a third through heresay.  Rand will eventually die, another dragon will be reborn.  The next dragon will begin channeling untainted, just like LTT, and when the taint is returned, he will have Rand in his head.  Rand's dead personality will still hear LTT and LTT will still hear the one before.    <br /><br />LTT is aware of the dragon before him, and after him.  Rand cannot be aware of the next dragon because he doesn't exist yet.  But when he is dead, and his personalty takes its place in the next dragon's mind, Rand will hear LTT, and the new dragon, while the new dragon only hears Rand and himself.  Until he dies and is reborn


created: 2008-09-22 07:23:33
subject: <b>relations to TAR</b>
body:
i am not too sure about this mysterious third voice, but LTT inside rand is the LTT that is bound to the wheel as a hero of the ages (similar to birgitte, etc) isnt he? as these heroes are reborn, they forget the memories of their previous incarnations, yet eventually they become one with their eternal personality (the being which is seen in TAR, similar to TAR-birgitte encountered by Elayne in TAR) which would indicate that the personality is inside them and a part of their taveren nature anyway. is it at all possible that 'rand' will lose the battle with 'LTT' for the body of the dragon reborn or merge personalities (especially since RJ spends so much time screaming 'i am rand althor' at everyone) so the dragon reborn is eventually the same personality as the dragon archetype which is bound to the wheel?


created: 2008-10-02 21:23:23
subject: <b>re:</b>
body:
&quot;Lews Therin<br />Submitted by darroncullen     on 8/24/2004 12:27:02 PM<br />At the very start of the first book LTT doesn't definitely die. He just disappears and the dark one screams in frustration. Can't remember where he re-appears off the top of my head but he merges with Rand. This has always indicated to me that yes 'The dragons blood will stain the rocks of Shayol Goul' but it will be LTT and not Rand that dies. I seem to remember Egwene having a true dream about Rand teaching Aviendha to swim in the two rivers while Elayne and Min watched. I have often thought that it may be Hawkwing himself who is the third voice.<br /><br /><br />The fourth ta'averen &quot;<br /><br /><br />so ur saying that LTT is just immortal?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-05 20:49:37
subject: <b>Rand's wall isn't of the AS symbol</b>
body:
tSR, &quot;Rand building a wall with him on one side and her on the other, her and Elayne and others she could not make out. 'It has to be done,' he was saying as he piled up stones. 'I'll not let you stop me now.'&quot;<br /><br />I don't see Rand reuniting the two sexes of channelers.  There's too many prejudices to overcome, especially in the short time before TG.  I think he'll accept whatever he can get from them.<br /><br />Also, I don't see how the two Dreams you mention have anything to do with your theory, other than the fact that the AS symbol is involved, though not really with the second as I showed above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-05 20:56:43
subject:
<b>Do you have any ideas as to &quot;what&quot; those symbols might be? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
That seems to me to be a necessary part of interpreting the dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-09-05 21:16:26
subject: <b>The Dream Jim mentioned...</b>
body:
appears to be about Rand feeling he had to do everything himself, which he has now realized is impossible. He has begun using the AS around him.<br /><br />He also wanted to separate himself from all the women he cared about.<br /><br />Rand trying to unite the WT and BT would be wonderful, since that is what Tarna and the SAS are thinking about now, although I don`t see that as her Dream.<br /><br />Elaida`s Foretelling refers to making the 9 AS kneel to him, which makes the Amyrlin angry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 10:34:40
subject: <b>Prophecy of Nicola?</b>
body:
I apologize first off, I haven't had access to any of my books for a few months and while I agree with the end of the theory, I think that Asha'man and Aes Sedai will always remain separate and will &quot;balance each other out&quot; when the Final Battle is done.<br />My main thought to this is the accepted Nicola (is that right, the girl who had visions and tried to blackmail Egwene?).  When the &quot;bubble of evil&quot; or whatever attacked the Aes Sedai in the town of Salidar (is that right, not having books SUCK), and the Aes Sedai and Accepted would link, Nicola had a vision where &quot;the guardians would watch (and basically &quot;balance out&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> the servants.&quot;<br />I can't remember which book but I think that that is the most accurate picture of what will be when the dust clears.<br /><br />My two cents<br /><br />Nikolai al Farran<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 10:36:21
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
I think you're right about needing both Saidar and Saidin to win the last battle, and i also agree that the reason the Strike at Shayol Ghul failed is because the female Aes Sedai didn't participate.<br /><br />However, i think i agree with Jim's post that The Wall Rand is building in the dream is him trying to distance himself from those he cares about and do everything himself. <br /><br />Anyhow, a nice theory, if slightly misleading in the title, i still voted yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~BlackKnightRand<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Want to see my sword that's not a sword? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Currently sitting at 113 the Wse!(08/19/09) OD<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 17:00:49
subject: <b>world changed forever</b>
body:
You said 'the world changed forever' part was because he now had saidar at his disposal. But he already had the Wise Ones and a few others like Elayne/Avi/etc<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BOOBIES</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 20:39:25
subject: <b>what changed about the world</b>
body:
To me, it seemed not so much that Rand had Saidar at his disposal, so much as Aes Sedai had bowed and sworn fealty to a MAN.  These women are raised to believe they are better, smarter, not-to-be-messed-with-by-poor-fools-who-only-live-short-lifetimes.  And especially, most sisters, even Greens, tend to view men as entirely subordinate to females.<br /><br />For them (who consider themselves the apex of creation) to bow and swear to someone who represents the nadir of humanity is frankly earth-shattering, and the consequences are enormous.<br /><br />I agree with those who say that Rand felt he had to do everything himself (poor boy, he's being driven insane, while having the equivalent of waking up to find out he's the worst psychopathic monster's son).  Ah, but he's wrong.  Saidin and saidar must work together, yup, that's the way it goes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 22:07:19
subject: <b>It could mean just about anything</b>
body:
It could mean just about anything and it may have several meanings.<br /><br />A literal interpretation might be related to Eqwene's capture by the tower AS.  Here the AS symbol represent her being captured by the WT.<br /><br />A more symbolic interpretation might be that the wall represents the Egwene's fight to find herself amoung her duties as AS.  Similar to Rand (and there are a lot of similarities between Egwene and Rand) Egwene has become her duty to the point that she has lost herself.<br /><br />A more likely symbolic interpretation is Egwene (as Amyrillin) strugling to impose her will with the Salidar AS against all the strictures and traditions of the tower.<br /><br />Viewing the AS symbols as those of the ancient and fully united AS (including men and women).  Then the dream might suggest that Egwene will struggle against those who want to negotiate with the BT, but that she will be fighting a losing battle.<br /><br />Another possibility is that the symbols represent Rand (since one of his banners is the ancient symbol of the AS) imposing his will without Egwene being able to counteract him.<br /><br />A final and not so likely interpretation is that the symbols represent Halima who is herself an ancient AS.<br /><br />Do the symbols represent the WT, Egwene's sence of duty and loss of self, ancient AS tradition, the movement to include men with the tower, Rand, or Halima.  Pick which one you prefer or make up your own.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 22:29:11
subject: <b>i always thought differently</b>
body:
i thought the world changing forever quote was due to the fact now he can seal the bore correctly.  that moment everything else became possible.  he had aes sedai to help him defend himself while he cleansed the taint.. then he could bring men into the fray...  elyane and nyn might help him reseal the bore but if everyone else says it is a bad idea they wouldnt.  but those who wore bound by an oath they CANNOT break would HAVE to help him thus he gets his women to expand the circle to well over a hundred men working together united.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-07 16:47:36
subject: <b>why Lews Therin failed</b>
body:
Rand will not seal the bore with a Saidin/Saidar mix because it was not originally sealed with a mix.  As this is a cyclic universe, he must seal it as it was before Mierin/Lanfear opened it to begin with to reestablish its original condition.   If one of the Ages is ours (from the Mercedes logo in Tanchico) then saidar and saidin will be lost at some point.<br /><br />RJ has commented (I think at Comicon) that if Saidar had been used it would have been tainted as well.  I personally infer from this that the lack of female AS did not hurt the sealing, rather it was a godsend (perhaps literally)


created: 2004-09-07 18:58:16
subject: <b>I have to respectfully disagree with the theory</b>
body:
I've always thought Rand building the wall was symbolic of him sealing himself off from all those he cared about and that Egwene failing to tear down the wall symbolized her departure from ancient Aes Sedai traditions (wanting to include all women who can channel in the Tower, wanting to do away with the Three Oaths, etc).  But it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;How ironic... blind, after a lifetime of seeing.&quot;<br />   -Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-07 19:58:58
subject: <b>To RabidWombat....</b>
body:
I thank you for all those interpretations...now I must go and think about them and see which I like best...but so far I can see a bit of &quot;truth&quot; in all of them... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-09-08 11:18:13
subject: <b>sworn sisters</b>
body:
I think that the wall of AS symbols Rand is building are the sisters who are sworn fealty to him and it is making a wall between relations with him and the tower and Egwene is trying to break it down because as the Amyrlin Seat she doesn't want sisters sworn to serve others!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to my right hand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> (must protect it at all costs!..it's my best friend)<br />The Lonely Japanese Wotmaniac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-09 20:30:26
subject: <b>Ya know sh*t</b>
body:
I thought it was obvious that they need saidin and saidar to completly patch the DO's prison, but maybe im just infanitly brighter than everyone else.


created: 2004-09-09 22:20:35
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I liked it on the WoT MB &amp; like it here. Good job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 02:11:51
subject: <b>I agree with much of it, but I had to vote no because...</b>
body:
I agree with much of it, but I had to vote no because I don't believe that Rand has really split into two seperate personalities (the Dragon side of him and himself if I understand you correctly). LTT is definitely another personality. The knowledge of the AoL and channeling is pretty much proof of that. However, I don't accept that Rand himself has actually split into two personalities.<br /><br />Certainly you have some very good explanations as to why LTT disappeared for a time and to some extent why Rand has become hard the way he has, but I don't think that this hardness vs. his old self really constitutes two seperate personalities. <br /><br />Now, I don't really see any way to argue it one way or the other. It seems to me that it's all a matter of how you interpret the events. Sure there's an answer to whether or not Rand has developed a second personality - and RJ knows it of course - but I see no way to prove it one way or the other. We'll just have to wait for RJ to explain it I suppose. You could very well be right. Regardless, this theory was an excellent piece of work and the best that I've seen in some time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 05:09:15
subject: <b>I may have written that part badly...</b>
body:
I didn't intend to say that he has completely split already, only that that is the way he is heading. At the moment he has two sides to himself plus LTT. He is coming to depend more and more on the Dragon persona and it is evolving, growing stronger. As with LTT at Dumai's Wells he will have to come to terms with this 'voice in his head'. This time he may not give up control, or if he does he will do something he won't like. The fact that the Taint is gone may help him somewhat, slow doen the develpoment of the Dragon persona and give him the strength to maintain control.<br /><br />Also, LTT may have gone through the same sort of thing in the AoL, but he wasn't under a sentence of insanity then and would have been much more capable of dealing with it.


created: 2004-09-10 06:18:49
subject: <b>Thumbs up..</b>
body:
..although thus far I would yet call the Dragon a role, not a distinguishable personality. This role idea's supported by Rand's awareness of the different voices in his head of whom I would define LTT as a separate personality. Also, it were weird of Rand to consciously decide to develop a third personality to deal with, having problems with LTT already.


created: 2004-09-10 09:46:44
subject: <b>Like File Leader</b>
body:
Enjoyed it on the wot MB and gave a thumb up, but not entirely convinced.<br /><br />A well-reasoned Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 14:09:03
subject: <b>Thumbs Up</b>
body:
I like this theory, it is well written and logical, which I believe carries allot of weight.  It also supports what I have been thinking all along.  I do not believe in the two souls theory.  I think that the creator/pattern has installed LTT into Rands head as a check sum to keep him going on the path required.  The way it has been playing out and its effects on Rand have been explained by this theory.  <br />Basically if Rand goes crazy that is an irrelevant consequence.  He just needs to get to TG and win.<br />


created: 2004-09-10 15:50:38
subject: <b>the thrird man</b>
body:
that would be an interesting twist if the infamous 'third man' is rand himself. i really like this theory and think it is both unique and well thought out. <br />well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~BlackKnightRand<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Want to see my sword that's not a sword? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Currently sitting at 113 the Wse!(08/19/09) OD<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 16:48:23
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The theory is interesting and well written, but I disagree.  How is it the third personality can express a philosophy so different from anything a simple shepherd would consider and that LTT agrees with?  It seems to me that is is another external personality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 17:52:40
subject: <b>bme</b>
body:
The answer could be that the third voice is from a dragon that had gone over to the DO.  Beyond that I thought it was a well thought out theory.


created: 2004-09-10 18:36:08
subject: <b>My question is . . . .</b>
body:
If the voice of LTT is just a made up person by Rand than how is it that the LTT voice has all the knowledge from the AoL?<br /><br />just wondering


created: 2004-09-10 19:08:26
subject: <b>I REALLY like this theory but</b>
body:
I have to disagree.  In the WoT, souls are reincarnated and I think the term &quot;Dragon reborn&quot; indicates that Rand IS LTT's soul reborn, not a 3rd-ager with LTT's voice in his head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;How ironic... blind, after a lifetime of seeing.&quot;<br />   -Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 19:37:03
subject: <b>RJ has stated that Rand and LTT are the same soul, but</b>
body:
RJ has stated that Rand and LTT are the same soul, but different personalities (which doesn't correspond with how I view a soul, but he's the one writing the books). He did not say whether or not LTT was <i>really</i> LTT in Rand's head, but I think that it was implied and certainly the fact that LTT knows so much from the AoL pretty much proves it.<br /><br />The question at hand is whether Rand has really split into two personalities (I don't think so) and whether on of those two personalities is the third man.<br /><br />I would definitely agree, however, that Rand has two different roles/personas and that he's not entirely stable as to how he's going to act. But I don't think that either persona is the third man. With the clarification from Unraveller that he didn't really mean to say that Rand has two seperate personalities plus LTT but that he's just on the way to it (or it least dealing with two different roles), the only problem I have with the theory is that I don't think that either of Rand's perona's is the third man. It could very well be another Dragon from Rand's life prior to LTT, but I don't know.<br /><br />Either way I think that it's clear that LTT is in Rand's head because the Taint weakened the barrier between his lives. Whether the third man is a further weakening of that barrier has yet to been seen.<br /><br />Certainly this theory was very well put together and has a lot going for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-11 04:42:24
subject: <b>the third voice</b>
body:
the third persona, or voice, or &quot;destroyer&quot;, is most likely &quot;the fisher&quot; from Morridin's sha'ra game... this fits in better ways, because rand is not really making another &quot;dragon&quot; persona, he is merely trying to harden himself enough to withstand events that he knows will come, and his &quot;inevitable&quot; death, at tarmon gaidon... the fact that if rand &quot;if you would live, you must die&quot; thing, merely verifies that there are two Seperate dragon souls in the body of rand (most likely 3 now, due to the presence of the fisher). thus meaning that one of rands souls, or &quot;himselves&quot; will die in tarmon gaidon, the easiest way i can think of to kill a soul would be to set a Draghkar on rands tail (it will be semi-successful, destroying one of rands souls), i however find this unlikely, therefore the other &quot;obvious&quot; choice, would be for a cour'souvra to be applied to one of rands 3-souls, and when he disobeys an order from the holder of the mind trap one too many times, *poof* they will crush it, destroying one of the souls... also, what page is the &quot;third&quot; destroyer, originally mentioned on, and what book is it in?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-11 08:20:33
subject: <b>The first mention is in Snow,</b>
body:
the Prologue to Winter's Heart. p.80.<br /><br />The second is in Out of Thin Air, Chapt.22 of Winter's Heart. p.436-437.<br /><br />The third is in A Strengthening Storm, Chapt.24 of Crossroads of Twilight p.558 in hardback.<br /><br />The face in his dreams is in Answering the Summons, Chapt.21 of The Path of Daggers p.408<br />


created: 2004-09-11 18:41:52
subject: <b>Your theory is based on Western psychology</b>
body:
and that does not recognise the reincarnation of souls. In a world where this is an accepted occurrence, a person with memories of their former incarnation would not be considered mad. In India, for instance, people do have them. Small children especially.<br /><br />Rand does have memories of his former incarnation - of drawing, of sho wings, of the Forsaken, of particular weaves. Mat also, and, thanks to the Finns, memories of other peoples lives. Therefore he should be considered mad too.<br /><br />Rand and LTT are two personalities of the one soul but the LTT one is providing useful knowledge. <br /><br /> I don't think your theory provides have the full story, because it leaves out reincarnation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-09-11 21:30:11
subject:
<b>Unraveller may correct me, but if I understand correctly he didn't leave out reincarnation at all.</b>

body:
Rand is indeed the reincarnation of LTT and he does indeed have LTT running around in his head. LTT is real. The question at hand is Rand's sanity and personality. Unraveller puts forward that Rand has split himself into two roles and is on his way to split personalities. If Rand were to actually split into two personalities, that would make three people in his head: LTT, the old Rand, and the new Rand (the hard one). Unraveller then puts forth that one of the Rands (I'm not sure he specified which) is the &quot;third man.&quot;<br /><br />Personally, I disagree that the third man is any version of Rand himself. I think that he's the Dragon prior to LTT. But otherwise I think that Unraveller is well on the right track.<br /><br />Either way, he does acknowledge that LTT himself is a seperate personality in Rand's head and is actually LTT himself and not a figment of Rand's imagination. I think that that is one of the less clear parts of the theory, but certainly that's what I took it to mean. It's never easy getting anything this complicated written down properly and while I don't totally agree with the theory, Unraveller has done and excellent job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-12 00:42:45
subject: <b>Thank you all for your comments and support</b>
body:
In reference to reincarnation Kalessin has it right. It probably isn't totally clear, I'm suprised so much of it is. I wrote this in about five hours late at night after a day spent feverishly digging through the books trying to figure out if I was on to something. It's not polished, it's not organised, it's not even all there (quite like Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />). Several people made valid comments and contributions on the message board and I'm still working it through my head myself (whilst doing a thorough re-read from LoC on).<br /><br />I think LTT really is there, in Rand's head, as a seperate entity/personality. Linda made a valid comment on past-life memories but in Rand's case it is beside the point. From his own PoVs we can see that Rand doesn't believe that LTT is a past-life memory, he BELIEVES that his voice in his head is a sign of his growing insanity. This is because he KNOWS he's going to go mad. If he didn't have this preconceived notion he'd probably have handled it very differently, as LTT may have in the AoL. He ran from it at first, grew to accept him later and flung it as far away as he could when Cadsuane pointed to it. In defence he created another persona which he plays whenever he has to do something he doesn't like, be the Dragon. LTT had to act through this during that time and it has grown more and more distant from 'the real Rand' until it begins to exhibit independant opinions/impulses. This is partially caused by the Taint, partially by LTT's influence, partially by the psychological trauma he has suffered and partially by his own revulsion at his own actions.<br /><br />As it stands there are two people with three personalities in Rand's head, LTT, 'the Real Rand' hiding in a corner most of the time and the Dragon persona, at the moment like a mask he puts on to shield 'the Real Rand' from what he thinks he must do. The Dragon does not yet have an independant existance from Rand but is beginning to exhibit independant thought, a split can only be a traumatic moment away.<br /><br />I really need to do a total rewrite sometime, when I've got it all settled in my own head.


created: 2004-09-12 10:12:52
subject: <b>Hmmmmmmmmm....</b>
body:
This is a fantastically theory, with proper knowledge, and I like what it suggests, although I'm not sure if the 'dragon/i'm hard, no emotions' Rand is sucha strong persona that it could be classified as a seperate entity (the third)<br /><br />but still...hmmmmmmmmm....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-17 19:35:07
subject: <b>MPD and Schizophrenia</b>
body:
There is a common misconception that Schizophrenia and MPD are related or cause on another.  Each is its own seperate mental disorder with distinct symptoms and cause.  Please read further if you would like to know the difference.  This was taken directly from the Physicans Desk Reference.<br /><br />Schizophrenia is a major health problem throughout the world. The disorder typically strikes young people at the very time they are establishing their independence and can result in lifelong disability and stigma. In terms of personal and economic costs, schizophrenia has been described as among the worst disorders afflicting humankind.<br /><br />Schizophrenia is listed by the World Health Organization as the ninth leading cause of disability worldwide and affects about 1% of the population, although pockets where schizophrenia is more or less common have been identified. Schizophrenia affects men and women equally. In the USA, schizophrenia accounts for about 1 of every 5 Social Security disability days and 2.5% of all health care expenditures. Schizophrenia is more common than Alzheimer's disease and multiple sclerosis.<br /><br />Determining when onset occurs is often difficult because unfamiliarity with symptoms may delay medical care for several years. The average age for the onset of schizophrenia is 18 for men and 25 for women. Onset in childhood or early adolescence (see Mental Health Disorders: Childhood Schizophrenia) is uncommon. Onset is also uncommon late in life.<br /><br />Deterioration in social functioning can lead to substance abuse, poverty, and homelessness. People with untreated schizophrenia may lose contact with their families and friends and often find themselves living on the streets of large cities.<br /><br />Causes<br /><br />What precisely causes schizophrenia is not known, but current research suggests a combination of hereditary and environmental factors. Fundamentally, however, it is a biologic problem, not one caused by poor parenting or a mentally unhealthy environment. People who have a parent or sibling with schizophrenia have about a 10% risk of developing the disorder, compared with a 1% risk among the general population. An identical twin whose co-twin has schizophrenia has about a 50% risk of developing schizophrenia. These statistics suggest a hereditary risk.<br /><br />Other causes may include problems that occurred before, during, or after birth, such as influenza infection during the 2nd trimester of pregnancy, oxygen deprivation at birth, low birth weight, and mother-infant blood type incompatibility.<br /><br />Symptoms<br /><br />The onset of schizophrenia may be sudden, over a period of days or weeks, or slow and insidious, over a period of years. Although the severity and types of symptoms vary among different people with schizophrenia, the symptoms are usually sufficiently severe as to interfere with the ability to work, interact with people, and care for oneself. In some people with schizophrenia, mental ability declines, leading to an impaired ability to pay attention, think in the abstract, and solve problems. The severity of mental impairment is a major determinant of overall disability in people with schizophrenia.<br /><br />Symptoms may be triggered or worsened by environmental stresses, such as stressful life events. Drug use, including use of marijuana, may trigger or worsen symptoms as well. Overall, the symptoms of schizophrenia fall into three major groups: positive (nondeficit) symptoms, negative (deficit) symptoms, and cognitive impairment. A person may have symptoms from one, two, or all three groups.<br /><br />Positive symptoms include delusions, hallucinations, thought disorder, and bizarre behavior. Delusions are false beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. For example, people with schizophrenia may experience persecutory delusions, believing that they are being tormented, followed, tricked, or spied on. They may have delusions of reference, believing that passages from books, newspapers, or song lyrics are directed specifically at them. They may have delusions of thought withdrawal or thought insertion, believing that others can read their mind, that their thoughts are being transmitted to others, or that thoughts and impulses are being imposed on them by outside forces. Hallucinations of sound, sight, smell, taste, or touch may occur, although hallucinations of sound (auditory hallucinations) are by far the most common. A person may &quot;hear&quot; voices commenting on his behavior, conversing with one another, or making critical and abusive comments.<br /><br />Thought disorder refers to disorganized thinking, which becomes apparent when speech is rambling, shifts from one topic to another, and loses its goal-directed quality. Speech may be mildly disorganized or completely incoherent and incomprehensible. Bizarre behavior may take the form of childlike silliness, agitation, or inappropriate appearance, hygiene, or conduct. Catatonia is an extreme form of bizarre behavior in which a person maintains a rigid posture and resists efforts to be moved or, in contrast, displays purposeless and unstimulated motor activity.<br /><br />Negative symptoms of schizophrenia include blunted affect, poverty of speech, anhedonia, and asociality. Blunted affect refers to a flattening of emotions. The person's face may appear immobile; he makes poor eye contact and lacks emotional expressiveness. Events that would normally make a person laugh or cry produce no response. Poverty of speech refers to a diminishment of thoughts reflected in a decreased amount of speech. Answers to questions may be terse, perhaps one or two words, creating the impression of an inner emptiness. Anhedonia refers to a diminished capacity to experience pleasure; the person may take little interest in previous activities and spend more time in purposeless ones. Asociality refers to a lack of interest in relationships with other people. These negative symptoms are often associated with a general loss of motivation, sense of purpose, and goals.<br /><br />Cognitive impairment refers to difficulty in concentrating and remembering, organizing, planning, and problem solving. Some people are unable to concentrate sufficiently to read, follow the story line of a movie or television show, or follow directions. Others are unable to ignore distractions or remain focused on a task. Consequently, work that involves attention to detail, involvement in complicated procedures, and decision making may be impossible<br /><br />Contrast that with Multiple Personality Disorder or what they now call Dissociative Indentity Disorder.<br /><br />Dissociative identity disorder appears to be a rather common mental disorder. It can be found in 3 to 4% of people hospitalized for other mental health disorders and in a sizable minority of people in drug abuse treatment facilities. However, some authorities believe that many cases of this disorder reflect the influence of therapists on suggestible people.<br /><br />Dissociative identity disorder appears to be caused by the interaction of several factors. These include overwhelming stress; an ability to separate one's memories, perceptions, or identity from conscious awareness; abnormal psychologic development, and insufficient protection and nurture during childhood.<br /><br />Human development requires that children be able to integrate complicated and different types of information and experiences. As children learn to achieve a cohesive, complex identity, they go through phases in which different perceptions and emotions of themselves and others are kept segregated. These different perceptions and emotions become involved in the generation of different selves, but not every child who suffers abuse or a major loss or trauma has the capacity to develop multiple personalities. Those who do have the capacity also have normal ways of coping, and most of these vulnerable children are sufficiently protected and soothed by adults, so dissociative identity disorder does not develop<br /><br />People with dissociative identity disorder often describe an array of symptoms that can resemble those of other mental health disorders as well as many physical disorders. Some symptoms are an indication that another disorder is indeed present, but some symptoms may reflect the intrusions of past experiences into the present. For example, sadness may indicate coexisting depression, or it may be that one of the personalities is reliving emotions associated with past misfortunes.<br /><br />Dissociative identity disorder is chronic and potentially disabling or fatal, although many with the disorder function very well and lead creative and productive lives. People with this disorder are prone to injuring themselves. They may engage in self-mutilation. Many attempt suicide.<br /><br />In dissociative identity disorder, some of a person's personalities are aware of important personal information, whereas other personalities are unaware. Some personalities appear to know and interact with one another in an elaborate inner world. For example, personality A may be aware of personality B and know what B does, as if observing B's behavior; personality B may or may not be aware of personality A. Other personalities may or may not be aware of personality B, and personality B may or may not be aware of them.<br /><br />The switching of personalities and the lack of awareness of one's behavior in the other personalities often make life chaotic for people with dissociative identity disorder. Because the personalities often interact with each other, people with dissociative personality disorder report hearing inner conversations and the voices of other personalities commenting on their behavior or addressing them. They experience distortion of time, with time lapses and amnesia. They have feelings of detachment from one's self (depersonalization) and feelings that one's surroundings are unreal (derealization). They often have concern with issues of control, both self-control and the control of others. In addition, people with dissociative identity disorder tend to develop severe headaches or other bodily pain and may experience sexual dysfunction. Different clusters of symptoms occur at different times.<br /><br />People with dissociative identity disorder may not be able to recall things they have done or account for changes in their behavior. Often they refer to themselves as &quot;we,&quot; &quot;he,&quot; or &quot;she.&quot; While most people cannot recall much about the first 3 to 5 years of life, people with dissociative identity disorder may have considerable amnesia for the period between the ages of 6 and 11 as well.<br /><br />


created: 2004-09-23 14:51:24
subject: <b>yup</b>
body:
Your theory is very well done and thought out...I think i'm going to have to agree with you, even though i hate the thought of Rand being that bad mentally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-13 11:17:49
subject: <b>Nicely done</b>
body:
I have been reading theories on this for the past four hours. Though I'm extremely sick atm, I can not say that I am in any way disfuctional when it comes to the mind - at least not from my normal self <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> . I must say that your theory is quite clear already, and though it does not cover every aspect, such as reincarnation, it in my opinion works far better than the others I have seen. For someone like Rand, who really is just a woolhead ( GOOOOO MIN!!!) something like what you have presented seems quite normal. Way to go. You got me convinced. Lets just hope RJ agrees <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Love always and forever,<br />phoenix


created: 2004-11-02 18:56:59
subject: <b>Hm.</b>
body:
This is definitely one of the most plausible theories about this I have read. I covers almost everything that needs to be explained, and is well thought out and clear. Nice job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lady Amalthea Pendragon<br /><br />&quot;Lan is Shrek! Lan is Shrek! Look! Rand describes him as an onion! He's Shrek!&quot; ... wtf, mate...</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-11 03:25:49
subject: <b>Killing the &quot;Dragon&quot;</b>
body:
Now, if we take this a step farther. The Damane (can't remember her name) who is supposed to help Rand die... Maybe it's not that she is supposed to actually help him physically die. Maybe it is that she is supposed to help him let this Dragon personality die. Or possibly help the Dragon personality get rid of the woolhead from the Two Rivers so he can take full control without Rand's interferance in killing women and all his other moral objections to the things that may need to be done. The former would be positive... I think we all agree that it can be annoying and frustrating to read a Rand POV now that he's all hardcore. I long for the old woolhead we all came to love. If the original Rand-Persona was to die off, he would be intolerable and possibly doomed. I for one don't trust this Damane, it all just seems too convenient.


created: 2005-07-17 16:44:29
subject: <b>You bring up a good point</b>
body:
I second the disclaimer, I am not a psychologist.<br />Anyway, you bring up a very good point. I would like you to address this question. Rand is deteriorating, that much we can be sure of. Yet, he is not the only person with voices inside his head. Matt also has the same problem. What is interesting is that in people who are truly fluent in two languages, the rate of scizophrenia (sorry for the spelling) nearly doubles. So, could it be that Matt is also experiencing similar symptoms which will become more apparent in the future?


created: 2005-11-08 07:05:47
subject: <b>Not quite so</b>
body:
In Knife Of Dreams Rand begins to see black specks across his vison. Black saa? This is disturbing. Where does this lead to?<br /><br />Is Rand in control of Moridin or Shaidar Haran? Why are they leading him upto Tarmon Gai'don? Do they have some plan to drive him insane so that he kills all his followers aka Lewis Therin?


created: 2005-11-14 20:18:18
subject: <b>some comments and observations</b>
body:
i wanted to comment on some issues brought about in this excellent theory:<br /><br />(1) we talk a lot about souls and how one soul can be present in two (or more) individuals.  If we take a look into christian scriptures, we see a character, John, the Baptist, as having the same soul as Elisha the prophet.  Same soul meaning same spirit, same temperment, same dedication.<br /><br />(2) the separation of personalities could manifest from extreme mental duress.  The Wheel of Time series (not including the prequil) has a time line of little more than one year, tops.  A lot has happened to this young man in this period of time that he has been totally unprepared for.  He is not confronting and dealing with the pain of what he is seeing: being spirited from his home; manifesting abilities in himself that he was raised to believe only evil men develope; multiple deaths attributed to his cause; experiencing legends come to life; &quot;ingesting the male-half taint; etc.<br /> <br />(3) I totally agree that these personas (mssks) are &quot;characters&quot; of Rands own creation from his experiences as a &quot;wool-head shepard&quot;.  His own readings of adventure stories, legends, lore, taboos and biases of his upbringing.<br /><br />Rand is crazy as hell. He is losing or has lost, by his own admission, his self control.  he could be considered as thinking of himself, in the third person, when he comments on and speaks to LTT. <br /><br />I believe, once he confronts the emotions surrounding his excruciating period in his life, he will learn to laugh and cry, stabilize and integrate his personalities, and become what the WOT needs to face TG<br /><br />btw<br /><br />he will survive TG.  Nynaeve will find a way to ressurect the dead<br /><br />


created: 2005-12-22 11:43:55
subject: <b>Just to clarify</b>
body:
I believe the series timeline is closer to three years, rather than 'just over a year'.<br /><br />Not nitpicking, just thought that was difference enough to note.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-25 19:15:08
subject: <b>Masema of 2112</b>
body:
Are you saying that the &quot;Lews Therin Voice&quot; is actually Lews Therin and the &quot;Dragon/Third Guy&quot; persona is Rand having a (relatively) normal split personality? that's what I got out of it, but some of the other reviewers seemed to be interpereting it differently.<br /><br />Do I think that you're right? I don't know, and (to be honest), I see psycology and attempts to understand the human mind as being only one step from thought control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">we really need an edit button on the blackboard. I mean, who doesn't occasionally make a comment that (unintentionally) sounds really snooty, as if it insulted a lot of people's intelegence, then realize they mis-spelled it.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-31 15:02:49
subject: <b>what third person?</b>
body:
there can be no third person as a direct result of a mental disorder because LTT is not created by rands personality,he is already there.LTT exists purely because rand is the DR,as would he exist in any of the other characters heads if they were the DR.this is proved by LTT's knowledge of the AL and therefore rand's.


created: 2009-01-21 00:50:38
subject: <b>Lews Therin does not exist, Rand is just plain nuts</b>
body:
Lews Therin as a personality does not really exist. Rand made him up as a way of accessing Lews' memories and skills. He is still the soul of Lews Therin with access to a particularly long lifetime's worth of memories. But in no way has a part of Lews Therin survived to haunt Rand. No there isn't even enough left of Lews Therin to fill a teaspoon of ash. Lews Therin wasn't even mad when he died and for that matter, how does Rand even know the sound of his voice anyway? He only assumes it's Lews Therin's voice because it usually accompanies fragments of his memories from the AoL.<br />Note that Rand is not the only main character with the ability to access memories from another lifetime. Mat can also do this, yet we do not see Mat as hearing voices. Mat simply remembers himself saying what his previous incarnation said. That's because Mat accepts what he has. <br />Rand is not entirely sure. He is groping for a way to cope with the awesome destiny that is being the Dragon Reborn. He has access to Lews Therin's skills and memories by virtue of being the Dragon Reborn. And this access increases with his ability to use the One Power. At the same time Rand has been denying himself, part of the ridiculous notion of hardening himself.<br />Due to the stress of it all, the only way he can express himself is by having Lews, obviously mad when he shouldn't be, sound off in his mind. He remembers bits of wisdom and the occasional weave or two, and he makes Lews Therin say it out loud. He remembers the grief of having slain Ilyena when  somebody dies but instead of mourning properly Lews Therin does it for him. If a particular situation or course of action feels wrong according to Lews Therin's experience, he points it out to himself, then laughs like mad because Rand is too stubborn to consider any other course. The madness brought on by the taint only makes it worse.<br />As Lews Therin he has an ingrained reflex in how he holds the Power and spins his weaves. How he identifies enemies. Rand in trying to assert his personality denies this reflex and believes Lews Therin is trying to seize Saidin. In KoD, he finally loses control and we see him channeling instinctively as Lews Therin would have.<br />So, bottomline is, this Lews Therin voice is all Rand's creation. It is his taint-maddened way of accessing Lews Therin's memories and experience.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 02:27:11
subject: <b>A very interesting piece of work</b>
body:
It's certainly plausible. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it and I like it. I;m not sure I quite agree on the severing part. Severing always seemed to me to be more of something being cut or removed, not blocked. Like your electric wire or your water pipe being cut. It's something missing, not something blocking it. All the same, you have some very interesting and well thought out ideas.<br /><br />In reality, I don't think that RJ ever thought about the whole process on this kind of level, so I don't think that there's really a right or wrong. But if we were to try and map how WoT works with a possible explanation of the behind the scenes, overall this is quite good.<br /><br />It's certainly original and a good addition to the theory post. Thanks Sidious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 14:53:25
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
It is probably true that Robert Jordan has not put as much detail down on his idea of how the pattern, true source, and channelers interact.  But I will bet all the money in my pockets that if he ever did it would be vastly different from this construction.  I don't want to offend because you obviously have put a lot of thought into this, but your choice of a geometric and quantitative model is in the end arbitrary and was developed ad hocly to fit the facts.  The real test of this theory would be to see if it could easily explain some new event that occurs with channelers in the subsequent books, or better yet make a prediction about some new event that jordan in turn ends up writing about.  An example of a better theory which I could never have come up without knowing all the facts but would still be a better theory would be the following:<br /><br />  If after reading the first book I had posited a connection between all channellers and the true source and all channellers and eachother, I could have predicted that people could tap these connections between each other and form a link.  I would not have merely explained what i had read but there would have already been something in my model which predicted linking.  There is nothing inherent in the idea of a funnel or a river above the pattern that predicts linking.  Now like I said that I could not have come up with this idea before i knew about linking, that is where the genius required for theory construction comes in.  But nonetheless i think it explains the difference between developing an idea which not only explains what we know but also makes predictions and one which merely explaines what we know.<br /><br />  One can make an infinite set of theories to explain any given set of finite observations each as arbitrary as the other; however, only Jordan's arbitrary theory will be correct because he will use it in the creation of new events.  <br /><br />   We may never see a &quot;new&quot; event inolving channelers and by new event i mean something that occurs where a talent or new dynamic is seen for the first time; an example would be if i wrote this after the first book and then we learned about linking in the second that would have been a new event.  I doubt Jordan will ever explicitly share with us the metaphysical model for his universe, but just guessing from what we know about him it is not based on some layered geometry which allows for quantitative analysis.  Jordan seems much more qualitative and organic to me.  He speaks of a connection between all things that transcends simple 2-D pictures and devices like funnels.  But these are just my thoughts, I could easily be wrong.<br /><br />   Still I do feel confident in sayin that you have basically developed a functional model that explains what we know.  This could have been done in any number of ways with any number of different models and all but one of them will be different from Jordan's.  Your idea obviously has a lot of thought, but in the end I don't think it will be able to explain anything we didn't already know ahead of time.


created: 2004-09-18 19:35:10
subject: <b>Interesting, but</b>
body:
It's a novel way of looking at things.. but it's not that predictive.  Much as I like your model, I generally have to agree with Paitar.  This idea is good but can't be tested, and can't really be used to verify much.<br /><br />But I'd have to add, how stringent are we going to be on these theories?  Is their predictive potential even relevant to the discussion of a fantasy series that will end in two or three more installments?  I think you're being a little to hard.<br /><br />I disagree on the probable level of detail that RJ invested in his system.  For one, he has been trained in physics and admits that the One Power is semi-scientific - the dynamics of the One Power in relation to angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal have analogs in electronics and in acoustics.  Moreover, he keeps a detailed, quantitative list of all his channelers and their strengths - it would only make sense that he apply this list in some fundamentally quantitative manner, being as scientifically inclined as he is.<br /><br />The philosophical presentation of the One Power neither proves nor disproves this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 21:17:41
subject: <b>Good job Siddy</b>
body:
From reading it on the true MB, you know where my only gripe was, and that's only a difference of opinion. <br /><br />Well reasoned &amp; evidence/math based (even double checked your math)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 22:22:07
subject: <b>Severing</b>
body:
Good work sidious, as an engineer I like the math. I have one comment on the funnel analogy tho. Instead of  a funnel I would have used an electrical analogy. Say that the Source is like a huge battery, and individuals who can channel have wires connected to this battery. The stronger the channeler the larger the wires would be, thereby enabling the channeler to carry more &quot;juice&quot; An angreal would be like a connection enhancer, allowing for a better connection to the Source. Shielding would be like temporarily putting an insulator between you and the Source, thereby breaking the connection, while severing would actually be cutting the wires. Everything else you said about precision (thin layer of excellent insulating material) and strength (thicker layer of less effective insulating material) of shielding would apply as would the actions of the angreal or sa'angreal. I like the wire analogy a little better because of Nyn's comments about something being cut when she healed Logain. Other than that minor visualization quibble a great theory. Me likey<br /><br />NaCl(Morgase 24 gauge wire, Rand 6 gauge wire)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 23:08:26
subject: <b>hmm.. impedance matching</b>
body:
So what you are saying NaClH20 is that the angreal work to help match impedances?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-19 01:16:17
subject: <b>RabidWombat</b>
body:
I like Salt's version as well. I've used it enough in various posts.<br /><br />Instead of angreal/sangreal matching impedances, I see them more as op amps where the gain is an exponential function.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-19 10:24:32
subject: <b>Don't like the math there</b>
body:
An interesting way of picturing channeling, with the funnels and all, particularly how that explains linking. I see it differently, but that's not really the point since neither version could be tested.<br /><br />I don't like the quadratic formula though. First of all you end up with channelers of hugely varying strengths that doesn't make sense, for ex. you put Moi at 28.3 and Nyn at 153.9 - no way! The 2 Black sisters that ambush the girls when they go for the Bowl are weaker than Moiraine but they still manage to hold Nyn for a while. <br />Further, the effect of angreal in your system is relatively very significant for weak channelers but uselessly small for strong ones - Rand gets 16% extra?! I think Rand benefits from the angreal at least as much as he would from being linked to, say, Nyn.<br />Personally, i think that the angreal effect is something between a constant and a linear increase. Something like<br />S_angreal = S*const_1 + const_2<br /><br />Another thing. You say that the desire to channel is a function of strength. We often see weak channelers displaying as much addiction to the Power as the strongest ones.


created: 2004-09-19 13:07:53
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
but i don't fully agree with everything. Remember, chanelling is determined by genetics, I don't know how much mathematics come into play there. But, i'm terrible at math, so i automatically am prejudiced against anything involving it...<br /><br />I have a theory pending entitled &quot;The nature of Cuendillar&quot;. if it makes it through, it also has some ideas on the nature of a channeler's connection to the Source.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-19 14:28:03
subject: <b>Nice going, sidious</b>
body:
But, as on MB, will not comment (no expertise), but find NaClH2O`s analogy easier to relate to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-20 10:43:27
subject: <b>Exponents?</b>
body:
I don't think that you can automatically assume that there is an exponential increase in OP strength when a channeler draws through an angreal or sa'angreal.  I think it is more likely to be a geometric relationship.  This is suggested by Elayne's comment that she is holding twice what Nyn could hold unaided, and that Nyn could hold more.  <br /><br />Think also of Rand's battle with Asmodean where both held the Choedan Kal.  Asmo was the weakest of the 13 and Rand is at least a strong as any Forsaken.  We know that the differences between the Forsaken are not insignificant.  Thus Rand is much stronger than Asmo was.  If you posit an exponential relationship, then the stronger the sa'angreal, the much more rapidly the aided strengths of two channelers drawing off of it diverge.  <br /><br />For example - assume a decent sa'angreal squares your strength, Callandor cubes it and the Choedan Kal raise it by a power of 5.  Even if we assume Rand and Asmo are fairly close together, say a 10 and a 9 in power (relatively), problems soon arise.  <br /><br />Unaided, the strength difference is 1.  With a normal sa'angreal, it becomes 19.  100 (10 squared) - 81 (9 squared).  Callandor increases the difference to 271.  1000-729.  The CK would take this to 40,951 (10000-50,049).  Even cutting each person's strength in half after augmentation to reflect the sharing of the CK reduces the difference only to 20,475.5.  Remember that the original strength differential was 1!<br /><br />This difference does not jive with the evenly matched battle Asmo and Rand fought in Rhuidean.  Even if you factor in Asmo's advantage in being fully trained, we simply cannot square a pure exponential multiplier to the CK.  I extrapolate from that that we are also unable to do so from other angreal and sa'angreal.<br /><br />I suppose it is possible that somehow an angreal being shared automatically equalizes the strength of the two sharers.  But what would happen if Daigian (or someone super-weak) shared an angreal with Alivia?  In all likelihood, Alivia unaided is stronger than most Aes Sedai with an angreal.  I doubt the angreal would bring Alivia's strength down.  As such, I doubt that sharing angreal does any kind of equalizing.<br /><br />Nevertheless, this theory was an interesting search for a way to quantify OP and angreal strengths, something I have long wanted to do.  If only RJ would give us more, we could generate a real model.<br /><br />Also, I would like to see the &quot;funnel&quot; part of this theory account for inverted weaves, hiding all or part of one's strength, the thinness in the Pattern at Shayol Ghul and exactly how Mieren et all were able to drill the Bore.  Fun stuff.<br /><br />Good thoughts!


created: 2004-09-20 14:46:14
subject: <b>I think you might be close.</b>
body:
My only real problem with this (in the math, at least) is the difference between Angreal and Sa'angreal.  With Sa'angreal being so much stronger than Angreal, even though both vary in strength within their own groups, I feel that perhaps Angreal cause a geometric increase (i.e. an angreal would multiply a channeler's strength...<br />From your example, Moiraine would be at a 3, with a simple angreal [multiplier of 2] she could channel at a six.) while a Sa'angreal would cause an exponential increase.  (i.e. From your example Moiraine's 3 with a simple sa'angreal [exponent of 2] would allow her to channel at 9.)  Now, granted, this is all just as theoretical as your theory and, I feel, from the difference in names alone, fit the facts better.  Otherwise, why not just call everything an angreal, just weaker or stronger than others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-24 16:45:53
subject: <b>impressive</b>
body:
A quite impressive theory.  I have to say that Paitar's comment confused me though, as it seems to me that basing a theory on the facts at hand is simply a sound application of logic.  But I digress.  Very well thought out Sidious.


created: 2004-09-25 12:30:44
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
what if your &quot;funnel&quot; is in an inverted pyramid instead? There goes all your work with pi.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-27 19:36:55
subject: <b>Wow, that's pretty cool.</b>
body:
I'd be really neat if someone could figure out the exact relative strengths of each of the channelers and measure the amount of the power that can be channeled.<br /><br />Even if not, this is really cool.<br /><br />You know what, this is--er.. neat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gone from these forums....</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 16:18:21
subject: <b>does anyone know how strong logain is?</b>
body:
im not talking how strong exactly here but verin says that if logain used a chodean kal it would be all he could do not to be burned out. nyneave however has no such problems. however later in the books he nearly breaks one of nyneaves shields which he should not be able to do unless he is a bit stronger. could someone explain?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-23 12:59:03
subject: <b>*is impressed*</b>
body:
woah..... it took 4 members of my family to understand this.... amazing. you have one hell of a brain! <br /><br />dont want to nit pick here since you are sooooooooooo much more intelligent than me, but Moiraine is stronger than Verin by quite a way, as Moiraine was among the strongst 5 (?) in the Tower, before her death.<br /><br />1) Nynaeve<br />2) Egwene and Elayne<br />3) Cadsuane<br />4) Moiraine and Siuan (before what the stilling and disappearence/death goings on)<br />5) Elaida and Alviarin<br /><br />just thought i'd point that out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 23:03:05
subject: <b>Not all of Africa is below the wave.</b>
body:
If your theory is correct then only Subsaharan Africa sank beneath the waves.  Either the Mediterranean rose or the African continent folded into the sea.<br /><br />Another piece of evidence that might work in you favor is the lack of steddings in the main continent.  There wouldn't be any steddings in the Mediterranean, or the other seas, nor would their be steddings in the Sahara.<br /><br />Other pieces of evidence that may come into play is the sand hills in the two rivers.  The used to be the shore on an ancient sea.  (Perhaps the meditteranean)  There are many other landmarks that presumable were part of land during the AoL including the stedding, the two choedan kal, the tower of ghenjei, and whitebridge.  The Jangai pass used to have a port there as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-19 00:38:32
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I had thought about writing a theory about this topic...how the WOT world could be our continents moved around during the Breaking, but I'm not sure I agree with all of your ideas.<br /><br />For example, the descriptions of the people and animals in Shara have as much in common with Africa as they do with Asia. Therefor, I thought it possible that somehow Africa became slammed into the area where are Asia is, rather than submerged. <br /><br />Also, the description of the Seanchan culture and some of the people, are dinstinctly Asian. So I thought it likely that a large part of Asia became merged into  N America and S America , and then the whole area of was broken up into islands.<br /><br />I also think, from reading the companion (BWB), that the island of the madmen is Australia, having been pushed farther south. In that section of the BWB, it mentions the possibility of a frozen continent, at least partially submerged, that would actually be the destroyed Antarctica. <br /><br />Lastly, I got the sense that the isle in a cool sea was Great Britain. There are lots of legends (i.e. Avalon) that are places where the walls between worlds grow thin, and would allow a hole to be bored into the DO's prison.<br /><br />I haven't studied the tectonic plates since elementary school, so I can't offer any scientific/geographic evidence for my opinions. But the cultural descriptions of the peoples inhabiting Sharra and Seanchan argue against your model. Also, I think that the &quot;breaking&quot; would be less scientific, and more extreme, than the model you've described. Madmen plying the one power would not necessarily break the world along its seams. Just my two cents.<br /><br />That said, I definitely enjoyed reading your theory. I'm glad someone else was thinking about these things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-19 14:17:45
subject: <b>Enjoyed reading this Theory</b>
body:
You`ve put a great deal of work into this, and it shows.<br />You have redeemed Australians from being Madmen, but unfortunately made them another &quot;Drowned Lands&quot;. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ajah:<br /><br />RJ has borrowed from all races and nations, but has mixed and matched them. For instance, desert dwellers are not, in the main, fair-skinned and blue-eyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-19 14:20:59
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
<br />Personally I think your theory is great! I also think that Seanchan compares obviously with America - why else would there be such diversity in colour and the &quot;drawling&quot; accent?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~Moonwolf~<br />Wolf-sister and Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-20 11:04:23
subject: <b>Cultural and Geographic Connections</b>
body:
There are so many accents and cultural idiosyncracies to keep track of, I have started to correlate certain accents with certain regions.<br /><br />Seanchan - American southern accent.  I basically needed to decide what on earth their drawl sounded like, so I imagine all Seanchan as coming from the South.  Much like Seanchan, the South has many different sub-accents.  Texans are distinct from Alabamans are distinct from Virginians.  Besides, the idea of everybody getting whipped up on by people with accents from redneck jokes really entertains me.<br /><br />Illian - Greek-American accent.  I get this from the many Greek sounding names (a lot end with &quot;os&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  The Illianers also live on a peninsula that juts out into a southern sea.  I always just picture Bayle Domon as a quiet and grumpy uncle in My Big Fat Greek Wedding.  Admittedly, the whole so'jihn outfit changes things, but...<br /><br />Tarabon - Italian-American accent.  Tarboners say stuff like &quot;answer the questions without the evasion...&quot; - I'm paraphrasing a Sitter swearing in the party Egwene sent to scout out Shadar Logoth after Rand cleansed the sources.  It always reminds me of cheesy, stereotyped Italian dialogue.  &quot;My car, she's a gone!&quot;  Two-dimensional?  Yes.  Good for remembering?  You betcha.<br /><br />Other groups I associate accents with based on what culture I think theirs approximates.  Domani seem like Arabs - names &quot;Sharif&quot;, &quot;Alsalam&quot;, etc.  and skin color.  Saldaeans I imagine as east Asians (tilted eyes).  Kandori are definitely Vikings/Scandinavian (forked beards, warrior culture).  I see Shienarans as Japanese - two swords, samurai-like culture, names like Shinowa and Togita.<br /><br />I think of Cairhienin as Germans - very precise and engineer-like.  Andorans are English or American - staunch, proud of their independence, freer than most.<br /><br />Tairens - they are definitely Spanish.  Look at the names &quot;Sanche[z]&quot;, &quot;San[t]iago&quot;.  They also range from light to dark, much like Mediterraneans.<br /><br />That leaves Altara, Murandy, Ghealdan, Amadicia in the westlands.  I don't know about these.  The Altarans are the most colorful, followed by Murandians.  I'd love to hear what you all think.<br /><br />Aiel - they seem based in part on the Mongols and in part on Frank Herbert's Fremen from the Dune books.  The parallels should be obvious.<br /><br />Sharans - Definitely China - the forbidden lands far to the east across a great desert fraught with peril, they sell silk, they are huge (at least the size of the westlands) but don't do anything militarily (that we know of).  <br /><br />I want to know if the Seanchan trade with Shara.  The ocean on that side of the world looks much narrower than the Aryth Ocean.  What's going on there?<br /><br />Isle of Madmen?  Definitely Australia.  Sorry guys.  It's just too easy.<br /><br />Oh, yeah, the Sea Folk and the Tinkers.  The Tinkers are very similar to popular portrayals of Gypsies.  Sea Folk - I don't know.  <br /><br />Cheers.


created: 2004-09-20 13:53:10
subject: <b>On the Asian elements of Seanchan</b>
body:
If the original theory is right, then Japan (and Indochina?) was submerged during the Breaking. It isn't too far a guess to think a large amount of the population from these areas fled westwards, i.e to Senachan. That would explain the Asian elements in Seanchan's popluation and culture. <br />But as I seem to remeber it the Senanchan are quite diverse. I seem to remember a man with distinct African traits of apperance (black skin, etc . yet blue eyes...) from CoT.


created: 2004-09-20 20:11:04
subject: <b>The Aiel</b>
body:
I'm afraid whoever thought the Aiel where Mongolion are a bit off. I remember reading an interview with RJ when he stated he based the Aiel looks on a typical Irish look (redish hair, blue eyes). He said he thought it would be fun to put the Irish in a desert.<br /><br />Being Irish myself (an not liking warm weather at all) I can understand what made the Aiel so hardy. We like our rain!!


created: 2004-09-21 08:51:04
subject: <b>The Aiel</b>
body:
RJ no doubt had a lot of fun mixing and matching however it pleased him.  Blue-eyed, dark skinned Tairens and Saldaeans with tilted, purple eyes are just a few examples.  One wonders if blue eyes are a recessive gene in Randland (as in the real world).  <br /><br />When I suggested that the Aiel were based in part on Mongols (not Mongolians), I was thinking of the Mongols' incredible prowess in war, semi-nomadic lifestyle, uncanny ability to move forces quickly and tribal way of life.  That being said, the parallels to the Irish are clear: fair skin, red hair, oosquai (whiskey) are just a few.  Many Aiel names also sound either Irish or Celtic: Couladin, Rhuarc, Aviendha (the &quot;dh&quot; was a soft &quot;th&quot; sound in Celtic and was very common), etc.<br /><br />Then again, whereas Ireland has always clothed itself heavily in wool, the Aiel also have cotton (algode).  The shoufa strongly resembles the burnoose.  Zemai, clearly maize, is a crop found originally in the new world.  Moreover, the practice of building holds right into mountains and cliffs reminds one of the Pueblo dwelling native Americans.<br /><br />RJ has done a masterful job of blending cultures from our world and inventing new ones.


created: 2004-09-21 10:35:02
subject: <b>Assist</b>
body:
On Tor's website there is a quote from one of the questions of the week that there are more steddings in Seanchan and the Ogiers over there do not know of the longing.  This gives a little more to your arguement about the geography.<br /><br />One point of contention Austrailia is the Land of the Madmen.  It already is today and apears it shall remain so in the future.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-21 11:36:16
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
I don't know that this theory really proves anything.  Sure, you can kinda claim some points correspond between our world and Randland, but if you get to pick which points to talk about, you can make that map fit any other.  The Westlands could simply be an extrapolation of the western half of Turkey.  The large bay between Mayene and Godan looks like Lake Maracaibo in Venezuela flipped upside down.  Heck, the Dragonwall could even be the Ural mountains, separating Europe from the vast steppe of Siberia (in this case, the Aiel Waste).  <br /><br />The point is, there is no point.  But still, it is fun to consider similarities.  I think there are many interesting similarities between Randland and the map of western Middle Earth.  <br />See http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~cbernd/pdf/middleEarth03_ltr_scale.pdf<br /><br />I highlight specifically:<br />Dragonmount = Lonely Mountain<br />Lake in Mountains of Mist = Lake Evendim<br />Mountains of Mist = Blue Mountains<br />Black Hills = Misty Mountains<br />Braem Wood = Lothlorien<br />Two Rivers = Rivendell (where the adventure really begins)<br />Dead Sea = Ice Bay of Forochel<br />Paerish Swar = Old Forest<br />Seanchan (known to Sea Folk as Land of the Dead) = Immortal Lands across the ocean (like the irony?)<br />Drowned Lands / Termool = Mordor<br />Dragonwall = Emyn Muil, Ephel Duath, etc.<br />Hills of Kintara = Mountains around Gondor<br />White tree (avendesora) (OK, not geographic) = White Tree<br />Aiel Waste = Rhun, all the nasty lands to the east of Mordor<br />Haddon Mirk = Ithilien<br />Shadar Logoth (if moved a bit to the west) = Barrow Downs<br />Falme / Bandar Eban = Grey Havens<br />And so on.<br /><br />Well, it was fun listing the stuff.


created: 2004-09-23 16:37:49
subject: <b>SG as Great Britain</b>
body:
I've thought about this as well, and I also pegged the &quot;island in a cool sea&quot; as Great Britain.  Interesting, that would put the Two Rivers in approximately the same place as South Carolina - RJs home state.  It would also make the Moutains of Mist equate with the Appalacians.  Recall that the MoM are highly eroded and predate the breaking.  There are also extensive sandhills in the Carolinas.  Some of the Two Rivers flora seem to match well with the flora in the Southeastern US (&quot;leatherleaf&quot;, IMHO, is Magnolia)


created: 2004-09-25 12:57:07
subject: <b>Mmmmm....</b>
body:
Your theory is rather convincing. I have always equated Shayol Ghul with Iceland. Iceland is an idyllic island in a cool sea, but it already has a volcano for the Dark One to reside in.<br /><br />Maybe the presence of the Dark One would drill into the Earth's magma, creating a volcano on Gottland in the Baltic Sea. Symbolically, I would choose Gottland, because the name means &quot;God's Land.&quot; The Dark One seeks to usurp the throne of the Creator/God and seizing this island would send a symbolic message to the Light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-02 15:41:46
subject: <b>That's a lot of thought...</b>
body:
but I wonder if RJ did that much in-depth thinking about where things really were.  The Breaking seems to be a way of being able to mix things up any old way without having to stick to geographical likelihoods.  That said, the southwest of Randland does look like the part of northern Africa that sticks out, and if that lake represents Gibraltar, that would work.


created: 2004-10-07 13:44:57
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
I'm not even sure I buy that WOT is set on a future / past Earth.  Do we know this for sure?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thanks, octane!<br />The Dark One's favorite lady <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-18 17:45:14
subject: <b>I forgot to mention - latitude 55 degrees north of the equator...</b>
body:
Latitude 55 degrees north of the equator is where Shayol Gul sits on the world map of Randland in the Guide.<br /><br />(I had to do some rather tedious measuring of that map to determine this.)<br /><br />The tip of southern Shara sits at the same latitude as Indonesia (between the equator and 15 degrees south.)<br /><br />Once you lock Shara's sothern peninusla into place, that rules out the world's poles shifting, which leaves us safely with Shayol Gul sitting at latitude 55 degrees north of the equator.  All that's left is to find cool islands in that area and we end up with the Baltic Sea being the only likely candidate.<br /><br />I once toyed with Iceland also but it doesn't work when you look at things logically.  The reason for this is that if Shayol Gul was iceland, then that places Randland in the North Atlantic Ocean.  This can't work as Bandar Eban (and I believe Tanchico) reportedly have ruins from the Age of Legends.  If that's true then Bandar Eban's ruins would also lie in the North Atlantic Ocean.  At a stretch you could possibly say these ruins are the eastern coast of North America.  But then leaves the Aiel Waste being everything from the coast of western Europe to the middle of China and I fear that's far too much.<br /><br />Far more likely is that the Bandar Eban and Tanchico ruins are from western Europe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Clef<br />Resident Healer for Wotamania Tournaments<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-01 03:09:19
subject: <b>Maybe accents would be handy</b>
body:
RJ has mentioned various accents of the different regions.<br /><br />Tear is Spainish<br />Illian is Dutch<br />Aiel are Slavic<br /><br />etc. They are mentioned in a FAQ. I am unsure if this will help, but perhaps so.


created: 2006-07-20 07:14:40
subject: <b>The San Andreas Fault</b>
body:
Part of the shredded appearance of Seanchan could be because of the San Andreas Fault. That longish island to the west of Sohima would be what's left of parts of California. Some of the other trenches could be where some extremely powerful male Aes Sedai plowed their way. <br /><br />I don't know how useful it is to compare cultures for geographical hints. During the breaking, everybody moved around. Also, if we are the first age, there is a lot of time for people to move, cultures to mix, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;<br />I was born with it...</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-23 04:25:46
subject: <b>no...</b>
body:
&quot;Maybe the presence of the Dark One would drill into the Earth's magma, creating a volcano on Gottland in the Baltic Sea. Symbolically, I would choose Gottland, because the name means &quot;God's Land.&quot; The Dark One seeks to usurp the throne of the Creator/God and seizing this island would send a symbolic message to the Light.&quot;<br /><br />Nope. Gotland (one 't') means Land of the Goths/Gots/Guts/Geats. A germanic tribe that inhabits the southern part of Sweden. We still have two provinces named West Gothland and East Gothland. Same thing with the island Gotland but they probably belong to some sort of sub-tribe to the Goths. We call them Guts.('gutar' in swedish).


created: 2009-01-14 00:36:59
subject: <b>Always though Shayol Ghul was Hawaii...</b>
body:
... since it's a highly volcanic region, and the impression I got was that it was a vacation spot prior to being ground zero of EVIL!!!! Any sea can be described as 'cool', and the WOT map need not necessarily be aligned the way we know it, with magnetic or true north on top, etc. Oh, I know there's that little pointer in the corner implying north, and people refer to north and stuff, but there's no reason to suppose Continents weren't turned 90 degrees during the breaking. I have also yet to see mention of compasses. Sextants, sure, and maybe lodestones (magnets), though I'm not sure, but no compasses... and you'd think, with at least 2 sea captains POVd at least once, not to mention more than a boatload of Seafolk, it would show up (important navigational tool, after all). <br /><br />Just my 2 cents, not really disagreeing with the theory.<br /><br />P.S. BTW, <i>have</i> compasses been mentioned?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">As a fanfic Writer, I am grateful for Kingdom Hearts. It makes writing about Randland so much easier...</font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-11 18:35:33
subject: <b>Sredit</b>
body:
Elephants that can be trained - that is, of Asiatic origin in America? Oh well, they did have zoos in the AoL.


created: 2004-10-02 18:45:05
subject: <b>Seanchan attacking the Tower ?</b>
body:
Except in dreams and visions, I haven't noticed any clear sign of Seanchan invasion. As Siuan points out, the Sea is very far away, and the only waterway leading from Tar Valon to the Sea is the Erinin, a river that passes by Tear, Rand's stronghold. Besides, they have enough trouble already with Rand's forces in Illian. Supposing they went on foot ( They do not have enough horses to move an army, and forget about Raken ), it would still take a very, very long time to reach Tar Valon. As is, they have only reached Ghealdan, and if you look at your map, that's a long way from Tar Valon. Not to mention that they'd have to cross either Andor or the Two Rivers ( officially Andor as well, of course ), either of these locations are story-heavy, so we're not going to be caught by surprise with an invasion of Tar Valon. If they pass through the north, the Seanchan would have to pass through Arad Doman and Saldaea, at least, and I do hope that the Wolf, Ituralde, has not been set up just so he could fail spectacularly. Notwisthstanding, they'd have to pass through a part of the Borderlands, easily the most heavily fortified area in the Westlands.<br /><br />So I don't really believe in a Seanchan invasion of the White Tower. Not yet anyway.<br /><br />Besides, I was under the impression that both the Rebel and White Tower Aes Sedai wanted to bond Ashaman because they thought that Rand's cleaning of the source was in fact some new eapon concieved by the Forsaken.<br /><br />Finally, the Aes Sedai can defend themselves if their Warders' lives are in danger, which they will be - the Warders won't be made into Damane. Also, both Rebel and Tower Aes Sedai have an impressive standing army, one of them led by Gareth Bryne himself. Unless Semirhage suddenly decided to teach the damane to Travel, something she can't really do, since she'd be collared as well then, there's no way the Seanchan can get sufficient troops to Tar Valon to do something against the imposing forces already present.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-02 19:22:25
subject: <b>I think the Asha'man and Aes Sedai are going to get together somehow</b>
body:
so this is a possibilty. If the Seanchan bring enough damane the Aes Sedai will have a hrad time fighting them, and participating in their civil war at the same time. They will need help. This is a possiblity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-02 21:03:34
subject: <b>About the &quot;last extreme&quot; thing</b>
body:
I don't think it's that strict. If the Aes Sedai thinks her life or her Warder's life is in danger, she can use it as a weapon. And if they think the raken/grolm/etc are Shadowspawn, they can use the Power on them. It's one of the messed up parts of the Oaths, like saying a lie if you think it's true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BOOBIES</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-02 21:46:22
subject: <b>What about Sisters ?</b>
body:
I thought the oath allowed Aes Sedai to use the One Power as a weapon if one of their sisters was in danger ? A reason why I always felt that Perrin's Aes Sedai were not being honest at Dumai's Wells - The Tower Aes Sedai were definately in danger.<br /><br />By the way... Quando omni flunkus, mortati ?<br /><br />I'm <i>sure</i> I've heard that somewhere. What does it mean ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 00:11:07
subject: <b>Another point to add...</b>
body:
When Kiruna told Perrin they would help Rand get away from the AS that had captured him...and all that happened at Duamai's Well...She(Kiruna) stated point blank thatin order to use the OPas a weapon..the AS would have to put themselves in danger...last extreme may be another of those things slighlty open to interpretation...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 02:14:45
subject: <b>The belief point is where it falls down</b>
body:
Good idea but the Aes Sedai will not assume their lives are not in danger because the Seanchan only want to collar them. They'll see, attackers coming towards me, life in danger, kill, kill, kill.<br /><br />With reference to Kiruna I'll have to re-read but could that be a lie? The Oath definitely states another sister's life as well as their own or their Warder's. Greens in particular never need to enter a fight, they can just send in the Warders and fry anyone who raises a hand to them. Could be one reason they have so many.


created: 2004-10-03 09:36:48
subject: <b>it's a possibility</b>
body:
Just to clarify. One of the tower reds, was considering suggesting bonding asha'man, since there were too many of them to gentle &amp; kill now (Pevara I think).<br /><br />The Seanchan could attack by Raken, or gateway (since Avi travelled to a Seanchan territory the technique could have been reverse engineered).<br /><br />But Aes Sedai can use the one power to shield their attackers (restraint not weapon), all that is required of them to stop the dammane attacks. Also it seems dammane are usually used against soldiers, not other channellers (see Alivia Vs Cyndane near Shadar Logoth; Alivia is much stronger and with angreal, but still gets beat). Plus At Dumais Wells (sp) the kidnappers, are fine creating a sheild and cutting attacking weaves. But after all that there are 80-100 thousand troops in and around Tar Valon to deal with.<br /><br />So they can defend themselves, but that does not mean that they will (successfully at least). A surprise attack, could rout the rebels, before the Tower could (or would) help, or take the tower before the rebels find out.


created: 2004-10-03 14:33:30
subject: <b>I agree...mostly</b>
body:
I have to agree that the Seanchan are going to attack the WT.  If not in book 11, in an upcoming book.  For further proof, look in CoT, that Seanchan general, Karede, was looking over maps of the WT when the Seeker came and interrupted him.  (CoT, &quot;The Tale of a Doll&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  That, plus the visions, is enough, in my opinion, to say that the Seanchan are PLANNING an attack on the tower...and what the Seanchan plan, they usually do.<br /><br />On the Three Oaths:  Even with the One Power dome up at Dumai's Wells, the TAS were able to channel, with intent to kill, out at the Shaido.  I think it's pretty clear that the Third Oath is hazy on this point - if a sister thinks that not defending herself at a certain point will directly lead to the death of her or her Warder, she can channel to kill.  Therefore, the Tower WILL be able to defend itself against the Seanchan.  They aren't just healers.  They can fight, too.


created: 2004-10-03 15:22:14
subject: <b>Though most makes sense...</b>
body:
...I have to disagree, purely on the point of timing.<br /><br />COT ends with what is probably a raken scouting over the tower. Combined with RJ's recent comments on the flat roof of the WT (raken landing) it seems the assault is imminent.<br /><br />The seemingly inevitable WT-BT alliance is going to take time since both towers are going thru potential civil wars and power struggles (Egwene-Elaida and Taim-Logain), so by the time this is resolved and any alliance is forged, the Seanchan will have already attacked.<br /><br />I actually think the Seanchan attack will be what reunites the tower and that the two tower alliance will relate to battling forsaken/dreadlords, once Logain has taken control from Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Kneel or you will be knelt&quot; - Mazrim Taim</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 16:42:49
subject: <b>I don't think defending themselves will be a problem...</b>
body:
We've already seen them do just that at Dumai Wells, as pointed out by others. We have also seen how the Seanchan use their damane to cast lightning bolts (IIRC), fireballs and fountain up the earth beneath people, so this looks like enough to qualify as danger to their lives, or at the least, their Warders, IMO. <br /><br />For those that have forgotten, in CoT prologue, Mat sees the Seanchan already marching troops northward, too. It appears they may have been doing this for some time. So I do think the WT attack is imminent.<br /><br />As for an alliance with the BT, it will come eventually, but you need to recall that there is still Elaida's foretelling about it being &quot;rent in blood and fire.&quot; Will this happen first, simultaneously, or after the attack on the WT? Knowing RJ, I look for it to happen at about the same time, just so they will be preoccupied with their own problems.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 18:28:39
subject: <b>Light In the Night.....</b>
body:
Did I read wrong or are you suggesting a simaltaneous attack on both White and Black Towers by the Seanchen?<br /><br />That would be massive in terms of manpower, OP, logistics, etc...But it would be a great strike to make against a foe....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 19:49:22
subject: <b>Re:bcondray</b>
body:
No, Brad. That wasn't what I meant to imply, anyway. Most likely the BT battle will be asha'man vs. asha'man. Logain's faction against Taim's.<br /><br />I'm looking forward to it, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 20:27:54
subject: <b>I still don't feel like an attack on the White Tower will come anytime soon.</b>
body:
We've already seen Seanchan disappointed at how few raken they dispose of. It's highly unlikely that they have enough troops to assault Tar Valon while it is at it's highest state of alertness - it is in the middle of civil war, after all. This is another point - up to now, the Seanchan have had easy prey - Tarabon was in a state of crisis, and it's armies were fighting Domani &amp; Dragonsworn on Almoth Plain. The Children of the Lightstopped all traffic with Tarabon, and thus knew nothing about the Seanchan. Pedron Niall was realizing there was a problem, but he was unfortunately assassinated. All of Amadicia's forces were out when the Seanchan attacked, dealing with Masema's mobs. And thanks to Mat, Nynaeve and Elayne, we were able to see exactly how well prepared Altara was. Altara has always been devided, and it is often quoted that the Queen doesn't hold more than a few miles around Ebou Dar.<br />What I'm getting at is that they won't be able to just send those few Raken they have to capture Tar Valon from within. They'll have to wait for those ground troops coming from the south, and as far as we know, they've only reached Ghealdan - We saw troops marching north across Altara in Mat's PoV, and we know they are about to strike a deal with Perrin. Even if we suppose one of the armies in Andor is the Seanchan, that still gives them a long road before tehy reach Tar Valon. And that's supposing Bashere and the Borderland armies just let them go traipsing through.<br />It is also quite improbable that they'll be sending an extensive quantity of troops - remember that the only one who has crushed the Seanchan on this side of the Aryth ocean, Rand al'Thor, has forces in Illian, and he has demonstrated that he is a dangerous enemy.<br /><br />Basically, the attack on the White Tower will come, in time, but if it comes anytime soon, somebody's gonna have to give me a serious explanation of <i>how</i> they did it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 20:50:52
subject: <b>To Light In the Night...</b>
body:
Gotcha...<br /><br /><br />John,<br /><br />If the Seanchen are about to attack the Wt... Do you feel it will be at before or after the BA Hunters start the purge?  Somehow I feel the chaos of the attack is what will allow the BA that do get away their only means to do so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 22:24:32
subject: <b>Removal of the oaths?</b>
body:
I think you are kinda right about the tower Aes Sedai not being able to attack unless their life is directly threatened. I think that when the Seanchan attack the Tower Egwene will be in control, maybe she will do something with removing one of the three oaths? haha Feel free to rip and tear this idea apart as much as you want.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</i><br /><br /><b>Alea Jacta Est</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 23:43:07
subject: <b>The three oaths</b>
body:
Most if not all of the old &quot;super&quot; AS have at some point been accused of not being under one or more of the three oaths. Maybe it will be the attack by the Seachen that will finnally drive the AS to abandon (or at least modify) the three oaths.<br />   I just invision the white tower under attack, the BA ripping the tower apart from the inside and Egwene running through the chaos to retrive the oath rod inorder to let the sisters renounce the oath and win the battle.<br />   Or......Egwene and Logian team up to take over both towers and they form the new Arvalon......wait....does anyone remmember any male writers in the quotes...... I may be on to something......<br />


created: 2004-10-04 18:03:42
subject: <b>Thumbs down on part.</b>
body:
I would disagree with the 'in the last extreme of defending her own life, that of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai.'. <br />During the battle at Dumai wells, the AS rode into danger and started using the OP to &#8220;protect&#8221; them selves.  As we have seen through out the books, it depends on how each AS interprets the oaths.  <br />For example, Egwene ( and any AS that has been collard) would interpret that being collared as a damane would be worse than death and would use all the power available to (1) not be collard &amp; (2) not let another woman be collard.<br />I would sorta agree that the Seanchan will be attacking the WT.  But I do not know the time frame.  I think it would be more likely that the Tower AS will be ready for anything because they now have Egwene.  You have the sitters hunting down the BA.  You have the rebel AS going crazy about Egwene being captured.  I figure that the tension and everything else (i.e. characters, story line, time line and just needing everything ready for TG) will reach critical mass by the middle of the next book.  <br />During the explosion, compromises and deals will have been reached and agreed upon. They will find out that some AS have already bonded Asha'man &amp; that the Asha'man have bonded AS.   Some kind of &#8220;unacceptable&#8221; compromise will be reached (unacceptable by the AS &amp; WT) but with TG &amp; Rand, also Logain (Glory above everything or whatever) they will have to agree.  The white tower will be whole and have the resources available, just in time to give the ever-victorious army another defeat.  <br />


created: 2004-10-04 21:00:29
subject: <b>Re: bcondray</b>
body:
You might be right, Brad. I get the sense that a lot of things are going to be very critical, timing-wise. <br /><br />With Egwene's capture and Alviarin on the prowl for info, the WT is going to turn into a disturbed beehive. (And of course, a lot is going to depend on who her captors are.) If it's the BA, I can foresee a lot of plot-twists, with them keeping her captivity secret from Elaida. Just imagine Alviarin and/or Mesaana having their hands on her!<br /><br />If it's the Ajah Heads that have her, or part of the team involved in the negotiations, many more possibilities are to be had. (Since they seemed to be expecting the attack, I certainly smell a rat somewhere.)<br /><br />The big question is if the WT is to end up being one of the major battlegrounds for TG, which many expect. The BA would be able to accomplish much more from within, than outside, IMO, and the search for them is slow-moving, from what we can tell. I think the &quot;Great Purge&quot; itself, may be something that comes later, but that's just my opinion. However, if the BA hunters start making faster headway, then the BA will probably be forced to run sooner. The Seanchan attack could very well be the diversion they need to get away. <br /><br />P.S.~ I just reread Elaida's foretelling: &quot;The WT will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever.&quot; This seems to imply that action will be taken to remove them from the WT. But I'm sure that's open to interpretation, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-05 12:35:00
subject: <b>Breaking The Oat Sorta</b>
body:
If there is a circle of Aes Sedi and Asha'man, with the Ash leading. Could he use the combined Saiden and Sadar as a weapon? <br />Or would the oats stop him.<br />I hope my point comes across right.<br /><br />This may have been mentioned or discussed elsewhere, I don't know. So if it has I'm very sorry<br />Have a good day<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> A Wise Man Once Said,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /><br />Are You Naturally Stupid Or Is It Something You Learnt.<br />P.s.  A wise man is a bit like a wise woman but with less adjusting of shawls, <br />less sniffing and generally makes a lot more sense. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 13:40:56
subject: <b>Interpretation of the Oath</b>
body:
One of the flaws with the Oath's is that interpretation is based solely on the beleifs of the one who is bound.  So while some Sisters may interpret it the way you say, others might interpret it differently.  Specificly, &quot;last extreme in defending her life (as she knows it).  Being made damane would destroy her life, and  if she honestly believes it, she wont be bound against using the OP as a weapon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 20:17:14
subject: <b>Light In the Night.....</b>
body:
<b>P.S.~ I just reread Elaida's foretelling: &quot;The WT will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever.&quot; This seems to imply that action will be taken to remove them from the WT. But I'm sure that's open to interpretation, too.</b><br /><br /><br />This is where I get the idea it's gonna all hit the fan at the same time.<br /><br />It's one of the few ways..IMHO...RJ can finsh in 2 books....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-08 14:54:11
subject: <b>Sorry, the premise is too farfetched</b>
body:
Hey,<br /><br />I like the idea, but the premise is wrong. Any Aes Sedai can use the power to defend herself, another Aes Sedai, or a Warder. You're right about the exacting wording of the oath, but we've already seen plenty of Aes Sedai who weren't going to be killed that used to power to fight, alongside her Warder.<br /><br />I can't imagine an attack on the White Tower in which the standing army and the Warders both step to the side and drink a cup of tea- allowing such a clean setup as your scenario requires (only Sisters are in danger of capture, no death or fighting surrounding the situation). The Seanchan will have to attack Tar Valon to capture the city, which means a Sister or a Warder will be in danger at some time- which would fulfill the requirements of the oath. Besides, it's not like the Seanchan can allow the Warders to simply leave without confrontation and no Warder would willingly give up his Sister to save himself. Therefore I have to conclude you're premise is incorrect.<br /><br />The Aes Sedai will need the Asha'man, but the oath will allow them to defend themselves from a military assault.


created: 2004-10-10 16:52:55
subject: <b>Question of Oath</b>
body:
Good speculation. Allow me another speculation about the Aes Sedai Oaths. I think that the Second Oath is also important.<br /><br />2)To make no weapon for one man to kill another.<br /><br />This Oath doesn't strictly forbid Aes Sedai from making weapons for MANY men instead of ONE man. For example, a catapult requires operation by at least 3 or 4 men.<br /><br />What about women? The Second Oath also doesn't forbid the making of weapons for women.<br /><br />There's a possibility.<br /><br />Then again, if we were to take the extremely logical approach to the Oaths, then Aes Sedai are constantly breaking the First Oath: To speak no word that is not true. Strictly speaking, Aes Sedai canNOT say anything at all except the word &quot;true.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> That's something for the White Ajah to ponder, isn't it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 23:43:44
subject: <b>Question...</b>
body:
Why can Moraine balefire Be'lal? She's not about to die because Be'lal is after Rand, and he's not technically Shadowspawn. Or have we already established that Moraine is probably not bound?


created: 2004-10-12 17:14:05
subject: <b>bel'al...</b>
body:
Moiraine could balefire Bel'al because he was a darkfriend.  The Third Oath clearly states that the One Power can be used as weapon against Darkfriends...&quot;To never use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn and Darkfriends&quot;....or else some random scumbag DF could plant a knife in an Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-13 15:58:14
subject: <b>Method for Seanchan arrival</b>
body:
There is a simple 3 step process for how the Seanchan will attack the WT in mass quickly:<br />1.Rand meets with Seanchan (which is supposed to happen at the start of the next book) and is captured<br /><br />2.Rand is bound using that male A'dam that keeps popping up<br /><br />3.Rand is forced to open a huge gate just outside Tar Valon.<br /><br />This would allow a mass assualt without Semirhage having to expose herself at all.


created: 2004-10-18 21:03:04
subject: <b>Um. No.</b>
body:
People speculating about Be'lal, go read the passage again.  Moiraine shouts at Be'lal first, getting his attention away from Rand, and Be'lal raises his hand at her, ready to shoot some bolt o' nastiness at her... and then she zaps him.  If she could kill him because he was a Darkfriend, she would have done it before he turned around.  She had to put herself in mortal danger before she could kill him.


created: 2004-10-31 01:05:39
subject: <b>Good theory.</b>
body:
It is basically agreed that the Seanchan attack on the WT will come rather quickly.  So far, and it's taken them awhile, the Seanchan have only made it as far as Ghealdan.  Even though they may have sent raken scouting as far as the WT already, we know that the Seanchan are planners.  They organize everything.  There are several ways that the attack can come quickly, some of which have already been mentioned.<br /><br />1. That damned male a'dam turns up and Rand is captured and forced to make a gateway.  (Or it could turn out to be a captured Asha'man, at that)<br />   ~In this case, none of the Seanchan women who will be wearing the bracelets will realize the effects it will have on them.  They will not be able to keep in control.  Knowing their methods, his sul'dam will probably want full charge of his 'training'.  Eventually he will control this messed up link.~<br /><br />2.  Another possibility is that if the Seanchan get hold of the male a'dam, they will be able to make more.  When Egwene was collared, her sul'dam mentions that if it is found that she can make a'dam, she will be pampered.  Even though Renna doesn't just come out and say it, there are other damane that can make a'dam.  And not just a'dam.  It would follow that they should be able to puzzle out how to make other ter'angreal, just as Elayne did.  And what would happen if a bunch of the sul'dam marched into a battle with the BT with sacks full of the male a'dam?  They MAY be able to sneak up and snap on a bunch of collars.  Some Asha'man can make gateways.  I say may because the Asha'man are made to be weapons and are not likely to allow anyone with those lightning dresses anywhere near them.  But accidents do happen.  Anywho, say a few are captured and among them are one or two capable of weaving gateways.  <br /><br />3.  Another possibility is much the same as the first, but I just wanted to mention it separately.  It could be the Aes Sedai to get collared.  Or perhaps one of the Kin or the Wise Ones.  Unless all the Aes Sedai (that have held the Oath Rod) make a vow (or swear or whatever they have to do) not to reveal the secret of Traveling, make triple sure not to Travel to a spot with a damane that can read residues is around, or is fool enough to get collared, it is not likely that the Seanchan will find the secret of Traveling unless it is given to them.  <br /><br />I know all of this is a little jumbled together, but if anyone cares to elaborate on anything I didn't say or didn't say enough about, please do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gesyka</font><p></p>


