# w_comment

created: 2001-06-20 07:04:10
subject: <b>One question</b>
body:
Hey Whize, do you think Logain will tear apart Taim's plans, or tear apart Taim?<br /><br />Just wondering.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 09:10:55
subject: <b>And besides...</b>
body:
Demandred was always almost - but not quite - as strong as Lews Therin, and it's the same thing with Taim and Rand.


created: 2001-10-09 06:13:59
subject: <b>dont think so</b>
body:
Taim is very surprized that Rand knows how to travel.<br />If he were Demandred, he would have known that the only way Rand could get to Caemlyn that fast was through traveling.<br />(or that other thing, tnhat takes an hour more or so).<br />That seems to give a BIG clue to that Taim is not Demandred.<br /><br />         //Dyring


created: 2002-02-04 03:29:53
subject: <b>Taim is not Demandred</b>
body:
I thought we were through with this Taim-is-Dem thread?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 13:15:26
subject: <b>.........</b>
body:
i like this theory very much. especially since you mentioned Callandor. convenient that Logain has two Aes Sedai bonded to him so he can control Callandor, huh?


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>HOkay boss work for me</b>
body:
Never bought the whole Taim is Deman in disguise.<p>   I like the idea of Taim being a candidate for a chosen since they're getting whooped. Maybe Shaitdawg will be realizing that the younger gneration got it down with killin and chillin.</p><p>   See if Taim becomes a dread lord then a chosen he is in serious trouble. Being so less learned than his colleagues puts him at a gross disadvantage. They be knowing things that they won't be teachin him yo. This will impact who I think is the only other Forsaken candidate born in the Age of Becoming (my term for the current age). I think Alviarnin Freidhen is being groom for either a High Dread Lady (in conjuntion with Mazrim Taim being a High Dread Lord [wich means they be smokin lots of two river tabac of course] it makes sense) or a Forsaken (again Taim being the only other one and male makes a nice balance).</p><p>   Logain will be the one to shut him down. Now if A) Mazrim is a new Forsaken and B) The battle occurs in book 10 then Taim won't die money will be bet on it if any one wants to take a bet. None of the Forsaken will die in the next book. If A) is right but it turns out that C) The battle takes place in book 11 then Taim has a 75/25 shot in favor of dying as one of the Forsaken bare minimum will die in book 11.</p><p>   Logain may rise to be the new M'Hael or make an entirely new term for the job. I think will point out in his inagural speech though that he is always on step below the Dragon. See that way he will retain his glory by not pissing off the Dragon. The reason Lews freaks at the sight of Mazrim is not that he recognizes Deman (you can't say that he did not in light of Osanshiva never setting off the trip wires like that) but because he recognizes the type. He knows what jealous men that lust for more power than they can handle act like. He certainly has the experience to back it up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 07:06:26
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
wotmainia, I think Sammael(sp?) is still alive.  It was only Madashar, not balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 12:47:16
subject: <b>He can't be - it don't make no sense!</b>
body:
Why would Demandred be Taim?<br />For 1 thing, Taim was cauing chaos a long time before Demandred was let out of Shayol Ghul by the ever non-permanent seals. Even if he managed to squeeze out, which I don't think he could, being almost as tall as Rand, why would one of the future rulers of the world (maybe), pretend to be the world's saviour or the reborn soul of the person he most hated?<br />Just a thought...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />WOT on!<br />Wise1Kat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wise1Kat  <br />Wise one of...um...many things... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <br />BLACKBURN! BLACKBURN!<br />Burn! BUUUUUUURN! Mwah ha ha ha ha... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />Go away Satan, I've got a headache tonight!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 14:46:23
subject: <b>sammael should be dead</b>
body:
mashadar takes the soul first, and then kills, right? well, if mashadar has sammaels soul, he can't be rescurrected <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2002-03-21 10:01:23
subject: <b>Where its Taim in book 1</b>
body:
Taim in book 1 ???(you me where). I really want to know if its true, but i dont think so. Also i dont believe he is Demy...


created: 2002-04-12 13:18:14
subject: <b>Not always the same</b>
body:
The problem is that RJ has indicated that Taim might not be Taim.  Of course Demadred wasn't around in the first book, but this is possibly explained in the scene where Taim meets Bashere and Bashere doesn't recognize him.  I'm sorry but if I had been hunting down an individual, like Bashere was with Taim, I would know what that individual looked like.  There was also the Flashback scene in WH where Rand sees the two rouge Ash'man being killed by Fain.  They mention about Demadred and Taim giving them the same orders at the same time.  Would it have been really that hard to kill off the original Taim and take his place so that an insider could be placed next to Rand and train an army for the DO at the same time.


created: 2003-02-11 07:43:06
subject: <b>Taimandred lives</b>
body:
The original Taim could have been killed and Demmy takes his place.  Remember, Bashere didn't recognize him at first.  It seems clear to me in LoC that Taim is Demandred (it seems clearto LTT too).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 19:01:21
subject: <b>Maybe....</b>
body:
Rand does not want to give up a Sa'angreal that powerfull to anyone with even a spark of power in him... it is tooooo powerful, he will make logain tamyrlin if he dosnt take the position himself, and if he does take it himself Logain will be his equivalen of the Keeper of the Chronicles. Just my opinion but id say its a fair guess... good theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 07:23:44
subject: <b>Hmmmmmm.....</b>
body:
I think it may be time for me to get another title.  I use this one too much.  Anyways....<br /><br />About Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Rand being the only ones powerful enough, that's a little messed up, because Logain is stronger than Nynaeve.<br />I have proof.<br />	In LoC (pg 589 paperback) &quot;...How hard had he tried to break through her shield?  That push, not exactly slow in boilding, but certainly not fast.  Almost like a man streching muscles long unused, pushing at something not with the intent of moving it but just from the need to feel those muscles again.&quot;  Nynaeve had almost all of her strength in that shield, and if Logain had wanted to, he could have shattered it without trying hard.  And you say Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Rand are the only ones strong enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 21:12:55
subject: <b>Mistrust</b>
body:
I think that I agree that Rand will give Callandor to Logain, but I do not think that this will be soon.  Recall, Rand has a serious problem trusting people.  Logain is not only going to have to regain control of the tower for Rand, he's gonna have to unify the White and Black towers before Rand trusts him.<br /><br />And Moraine in no way comes even close to Logains power.  She was/is a sister of a little better than average power, but nowhere near Forsaken level.  She only beat Lanfear through surprise and the fact that Lanfear was using her powers elsewhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 01:39:04
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
Actually, Moiraine does have above average strength, for Aes Sedai before she disappeared. I recall (I think it was in reference to the female Choedan Kael) someone saying that only a few had the power to use it without it killing them: The Amyrlin (Siuan, at the time), Moiraine, Elaida, 3 girls in training (gotta be Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene) and maybe one or two others. Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene can't be counted, and the maybe one or two others comment means they probably aren't as strong, leaving Moiraine as one of the three strongest women in the Tower at the time of Eye of the World. However, I don't think she can stand against a Forsaken in a straight fight. She caught Be'lal by surprise with balefire (and had an angreal, I believe) and Lanfear she didn't even channel against, she tackled her (if Moiraine even killed Lanfear, I say the Finn's). So, no Moiraine could not take a Forsaken in a straight fight, but no, she is not just a slightly above average channeler.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 12:05:57
subject: <b>IF's..</b>
body:
If Logain was to become Tamyrlin... He would need to kick the crap out of Taim, bring the Black Tower under his complete command, and then knock some sense into the White Tower.  BUT with the White Tower having its own problem with choosing a Amyrlyn (see Egwene and the &quot;exile&quot; sisters and the current White tower roster for more info) Do you really think whomever wins that fight will just give up control of her Tower?  Egwene is very subborn and Eladia is just as bad.  Now if Logain could play both of them just right he could slip in and gain the upper hand using the black towers number of Ashaman.<br /><br />Side theory:<br />I think part of what Rand must learn is trust.  When he became hard like stone and the dissussion came up in the book they sopke of making him strong not hard.  Rand trusts very few, but he would have to decide to trust Logain with that much power.  (the Callandor thing put aside)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The time has come the walrus said, to talk of many things.  Of  shoes and ships and sealing wax, and cabbages and kings.  And why the sea is boiling hot and whether pigs have wings.&quot;<br />-Lewis Carrol<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-30 13:11:27
subject: <b>It has to be rand</b>
body:
Rand must be the next tamyrlin because Lewis Therin was the last! SO if the wheele of time is truely a wheele then It has to be rand and not Logain


created: 2001-09-19 00:38:08
subject: <b>I'll take the first one...</b>
body:
I think that the likelyhood that Taim will become a darkfriend is the much more plausible of your two theories. Taim becoming a hero seems out of the question when you consider Min's viewing of blood in his past and blood in his future. I also believe that Taim(or some other Darkfriend/channeller) may be elevated to one of the Forsaken. There are openings in their ranks and I think that the DO needs 13 of them for some hidden purpose. Rj consistently uses the number in the books. Taim's envy of Rand and desire for status fits the prototype for most of the male chosen.


created: 2001-08-03 17:01:44
subject: <b>Yes,but...</b>
body:
I agree with you that Taim isn't necessarily Demandred.  But just because we knew of Taim before the forsaken were released doesn't mean anything.   We have seen other Forsaken kill people of high authority and take there places if it is very beneficial.  And running the Blac Tower seems to me to be a rather nice position for one of the Forsaken.


created: 2002-02-04 03:35:24
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I don't think Taim is a Darkfriend. I also don't think he is Demandred. But I have to agree with the comparison of Dem:LTT as Taim:Rand. I think not being the Dragon Reborn has made Taim jealous and furious and he's just masquerading to be on Rand's side in order to get inside info on Rand's plans. I think Taim has become more than just a Darkfriend but less than a Forsaken, kinda like Fain's status. He (Taim) is working for his own gains, which just coincides with the DO's- destroy Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 09:55:59
subject: <b>another thought. Abitfarafield</b>
body:
I disagree with the latter of your possibilities, or rather you interpretations of the viewings.<br />I know this is a bit far afield, but you gave me the points.<br />The dream where logain steps over the body of Rand has two points of signifigance to me.<br />1) When Logain took out Callandor. We all remember the prophecy &quot;who can grasp that fearful blade will follow after.&quot; I think that means that AFTER rand has died in the last battle, and of course Taim is no longer.(We all know he is no good, whether Demandred or not, and he would not logically survive the last Battle.) So, after the last battle, Logain will take over Rand's place at the head of the black tower, and probably become Tamrylin. Remember 'the great battle done, and the world not yet done with battle'.<br /><br />2)The signifigance of Rand's body crumbling and showing hollowness, is that he survives the last battle (the three on a boat vision by Nicola?) And the world is allowed, or more likely duped into beleiving that this is true. <br />This brings me to my next point. &quot;Twice to live and twice to die&quot; This beleif of the world that the dragon reborn is dead, is the first death, after his first life. The life he has after is his second life, and his actual Death is the second death.<br /><br />Elanmorintedronai.<br />P.S If this too far afiel for a reply, could it be considered a theory on it's own plz? If not already thought of.


created: 2002-06-18 15:40:26
subject: <b>a</b>
body:
ASHAMAN WILL BECOME AES SEDAI WHEN EGWENE TAKES TAR VALON- THEY WONT POST THE THEORY BECAUSE I KNOW TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>A little of scope</b>
body:
just a little something on the 'twice to live and twice to die' theory....<p>it never specifically says that rand will live twice and die twice.....it could be saying '(marked) twice to live (ie, two dragons et al.) and (marked) twice to die (dragons, herrons, etc.)</p><p>just a random thought early in the morning</p>


created: 2001-06-19 04:00:56
subject: <b>about Rand and death</b>
body:
I seem to recall somewhere that Rand was going to die in the last battle but live after.  (A viewing of Min's comes to mind of her, Elayne and Avaindah standing over a boat with Rand in it, dead, and yet still alive.)  <br />Is probably far fetched but Rand once thought that to lose the Source would be the same as death.  But I will admit the prophecy wouldnt follow one person's point of view instead of fact - yet Obi-wan always said &quot;that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.&quot;<br /><br />anyhow, just throw that out there


created: 2001-06-19 20:35:01
subject: <b>I agree with the wotmania reply for the original theory.</b>
body:
just subject<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;....Clark [Kent]. Of all the things you can do...All your powers. The greatest has always been your instinctive knowledge of right and wrong.&quot;<br /><br />From Mark Waid's &quot;Kingdom Come&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Taim definitely dark</b>
body:
I agree with the facts that A) Taim aint Demandred and B) He is a darkfriend.<p>   GIven his high status in the regular world he is certainly likely to catch the eye of the Forsaken one of whom might teach him how to use a mask of mirrors and invert it so as to sully Rands name.</p><p>   Of course the vision could mean that Al'Thor and Albar will hatch a plot to fake Rands death, and Logain will the spring a trap on Taim when he makes a move.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 09:37:16
subject: <b>Logain v. Taim</b>
body:
i definitely agree that there will be a confrontation between Logain's faction against Taim's faction.  Elaida's foretelling has already forshadowed a battle on Black Tower grounds with AS involvment (enter the bonded AS).  As for as Taim using illusion to portray himself as Rand, i do not see the necesity for doing this.  Taim is already a known liar (he lied about Narishma, Flinn, and Hopwell) so we must at least consider his being a darkfriend at the very least, Demandred at the very worst.  With this information a confrontation can already happen without the introduction of more Taimish incidents (like portraying himself as Rand).  With Logain v. Taim, the Ashaman (who are growing very rapidly) will be winnowed to a more agreeable number, as in <br />'the guardians will equal the servants.'  In the end, it seems apparent that Logain will become leader of the BT and serve Rand in Tarmon Gaidon, taking over the whole party after Rand defeats the dark one.  Rand will then die in the eyes of the world so that he can safely float away into the sunset with his three women.


created: 2001-11-27 01:49:43
subject: <b>just a quick add on</b>
body:
I would just like to add something, Logain won't need to see through the weave but will know he isn't anyway why? Because Logain has the ability to see Ta'veren he has commented on this when saying he saw a man shine like the sun during his procession in Caemlyn. Logain will take one look at Taim know he isn't Ta'veren be suspicious and sooner or later figure out what's up. As leader of the Black Tower his opinion will carry a lot of weight and Taim will be exposed. If the story flows in the direction of this theory I'm positive this is how it'll go.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-11 22:31:28
subject: <b>I COMPLETELY Agree</b>
body:
I agree with the theory completely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Lover of BOOKS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Three in a boat</b>
body:
That would possibly refer to Rand, Lews, and Destroyer-X which is my name for the mystery third face that Rand keeps seeing.<p>   So are we sure which side of the family Luc is from? You mentioned that he was an heir to the throne of Cairhienin, wouldn't that make him Cairhienin and not Andoran? If he was a Damodred and the uncle to Galads father then his only relation to Rand is by marriage. That doesn't seem right since others have noted his resemblance to Rand in one world or the other. I'm still not sure if he can go into either world as either person.</p><p>   Again I don't see that Rand would be able to invade another persons body. Everything thus far has showed that to be a bad guy tactic, and if good guys use the tools of evil then they are no better than those they fight. For example notice that going into the dream realm in the flesh will get you in trouble.</p><p>   Giatra sending Luc to the Blight may have had nothing to do with Rand. It may have been so that Luc ould merge with Isam and fufill his role in destiniy. The foretelling is usually meant to push someone towards their fate, even if it is dire. Take note of Elaida and her foretelling about the Tower united under the Amyrlin, or the one about the royal bloodline. </p><p>   In fact that was I do believe before Tigraine vanished or right after. Elaida took it to mean House Trakand since the previous house was with out an heir apparent. So Elaida attached herself to Morgase once she saw what way the wind was blowing for the succession. This halted her dreams of setting herself up as a potential Amyrlin (thank the light) at the time. That prophecy may have actually meant Rand Al'Thor.</p><p>   By the way I do think that Logains glory will be his own. That's the only way I think the viewing works. Besides being the man to save the Black Tower from the dark, and consequently remove a big ol thorn for the Dragon constitues more than enough glory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 12:32:23
subject: <b>Luc and Isam</b>
body:
Since this was the quick theory of the day, I decided to go ahead and toss my two silvers in.<br /><br />Luc is Tigraine's brother, and is Rand's blood uncle. Gitara Sedai sent him to the blight to find his destiny.<br /><br />Isam is Lan's cousin. Isam's mother believed that he was the rightful heir to the borderland throne of Malkier, instead of Lan. When Malkier was swallowed up by the blight, Isam and his mother went north, instead of to safety, and were never heard from again.<br /><br />Isam is evil, I think we can all agree. Luc, on the other hand, seems to have been a victim initially, but apparently is also turned to the Shadow by now. Whatever is left of him (Luc) within he who is now called Slayer, it's enough that he refers to Rand as his nephew after the failed attempt to kill Rand at Far Madding.<br /><br />I am curious about the appearance of Slayer. If he always looks like Luc, then Perrin would have surely noticed the similarity to Rand when 'Lord Luc' was in Emond's Field. Then we have the event in T'A'R where the girls are meeting at the Stone, and Slayer lets himself be seen. The girls' first comment was that he could have been Rand's uncle, if Rand had an uncle that looked angry all the time. To me those two items suggest that Slayer's appearance is dependent upon which personality is dominant at a given time.<br /><br />I also take interest in when he steps out of T'A'R and takes note of who he &quot;is&quot; at that moment, and feels that it's appropriate. Does this not suggest that he isn't in complete control of who is dominant?<br /><br />Whether any of these thoughts can be transferred to a connection between Rand and Logain remain to be seen, and I haven't a theory to support or deny it. I will say this, it seems that a number of Logain theories take it for granted that Logain will wield Callandor as fulfillment of one of Egwene's dreams about a dark, young man holding a sword that shone like the sun, or something along those lines. Well, that seems to have been fulfilled by Jahar Narishma using Callandor in Rand's defense while the taint was being removed from saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 07:40:09
subject: <b>To Lord Savaunt</b>
body:
One, Perrin said that Slayer looked like Lan, not Rand.<br />Two, entering T'A'R in the flesh is an evil thing, yet Rand does that all the time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 22:32:18
subject: <b>I don't see that happening</b>
body:
Whoever said that taking over another's body was evil hit it square on.  Isam and Luc, Mordeth and Padan Fain.  Sorry, but I don't see our hero taking that path.  On another note, while I don't think Logain is an all-together upstanding individual, I don't think he is inherently bad either.  Let's face it, we don't really know him that well outside of his trip with Siuan, Min, and Leane to Salidar and his eventual Healing by Ny.  He spent most of the trip in a stupor of depression over his gentling, so no info there.  I didn't notice anything to mark him as a bad guy.  In fact, I seem to remember Suian thinking to herself something like he had soft eyes after they found him wandering the streets of Tar Valon.  Of course, that doesn't really mean beans, but there it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 12:16:36
subject: <b>oh well not book nine then....................</b>
body:
perhaps book 76.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />we should be so lucky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 09:39:41
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
I like this idea...almost as much as Bela as the Creator!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-01 23:20:17
subject: <b>But then....</b>
body:
how is it that Rand used Callandor without any ill effect on two occaisions in the Stone of Tear.  I don't think that Cadsuane's statment is the entire truth.  Remember when Moraine spoke of Choedan Kal the first time. She said something to the effect that she couldn't think of more then two Sisters that could touch those sa'angreal without burning themselves out and that even she was unable to utilize such powerful sa'angreal.<br /><br />Maybe Cadsuane was able to tell her &quot;truth&quot; because she believed the Asha'man that were going with them could not possibly be strong enough to control such a surge of power.  For her it would not be a lie if she believed it and if she was Black Ajah like Moraine suspected, well then....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-10 12:40:54
subject: <b>Taim is Aginor?</b>
body:
Ok what dope is this guy smoking Taim appeared before Aginor, and anyway HoW identified Dashiva as Aginor duh


created: 2003-03-13 10:17:42
subject: <b>Aginor and Taim</b>
body:
Osan'gar = Aginor, clearly stated in the first scene with Osan.  Osan'gar said he created the Lurks, and trollocs.  And in Winter's Heart, I'm fairly sure that it identified Dashiva as Demandred (in the Crown of Swords Taim said Dashiva learned fast, and I think it Had Demand's POV in WH and someone blasted fire or such at him, then it switched POVs to an Aes Sedai or Asha'man and they saw the person attacked was Dashiva when it was too late (I know I lacked periods but fudge it)).


created: 2003-07-02 00:32:25
subject: <b>for ThePoopinAiel</b>
body:
Alright, I wouldn't normally put up this UNRELATED comment except that the last post was blatantly wrong.  Since you've admitted reading WH, you should have either reread it again or paid more attention.  I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to be clear.<br /><br />It is true that Osan'gar is Aginor.  Yet you completely missed the irrefutable fact that Dashiva is also Osan'gar.  In WH, &quot;With the Choedan Kal&quot; beginning on pg. 761 paperback and continuing to 763, the two passages make it undeniably clear that Osan'gar is Dashiva.<br /><br />Of course, he's dead now so this doesn't matter until the DO brings him back again (*IF* he does, after all he's died twice, that kind of a big failure).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 14:16:04
subject: <b>Slagle's theory</b>
body:
...is interesting (Woodward?)but what would the merging do to all of those bonded to the 2 men?  Would Elayne, Min, &amp; Aviendha agree to share with 2 more?  I don't think so!


created: 2001-06-15 17:24:56
subject: <b>logain at full strength</b>
body:
i believe that only a healer of the other half of the true source can fully heal stilling/gentling.  for example, siuan is extremely weak let logain has not mentioned feeling weaker.  therefor, suian and leane can be brought back to full strength if an ashaman finishes the healing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Gladiator Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Cup <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Defender of the Front Line <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Champion of his Land <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Singer of the Songs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> True North Strong and Free <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Crusher of All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 07:48:44
subject: <b>Uh Uh.</b>
body:
No way could an Asha'man finish the healing, Nynaeve found out already that what was healed once cannot be healed again.  Thus, since siuan and leane were healed from stilling one, they cannot be again, unless theyn are re-stilled, and i doubt that they would want that to happen again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 03:41:28
subject: <b>proof of taim vs. logain</b>
body:
takeru, i think proof of the eventual taim-logain battle is elaida's foretelling in PoD, i think (either that or WH), about blood in the Black Tower and sisters walking tis grounds. Of course, what elaida thought was that this refers to the capture by toveine and other sisters of the asha'man, but as events have proven otherwise, it was the sisters who were captured by them. so sisters walking the grounds mean the aes sedai prisoners/ bonded aes sedai. and blood means the eventual tai-logain face off<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 16:29:35
subject: <b>Thoughts on stilling</b>
body:
It seems it better to be healed by the opposiet sex after stilling. Looking at Loagin and the sisters that were healed by the Ash'aman.As opposed to Siuan and Leane's healing.Maybe it means something?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Ron T. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The real world as in dreams, nothing is quite what it seems.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;There can be only one.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 21:33:24
subject: <b>Logain's at full strength...</b>
body:
Sorry my friends, but I'm rereading Lord of Chaos at the moment and it is made very clear that Logain is at full strength after being healed by Nynaeve.<br />   I lend greater credence to the improved Healing by the opposite gender, but for a different reason: While I believe that gender (which is to say which half of the One Power used) is an important part of the Healer's sucess, I think it may have something to do with the weaves used to Heal the Stilling. It seems that what is being healed is the Channeler's connection to the source, so it makes sense that the flows used to Heal that severing be affiliated with the recipient. <br />   To put it more directly: strength in the Five Powers is pretty much divided along gender lines, with the exception of Spirit. Therefore, Spirit, used in conjunction with the individuals Power of greatest affinity should provide the best &quot;connection,&quot; if you will; similar to that of an electric current. I should probably post this as a theory, but I'll continue it here for now...<br />   Nynaeve was so preoccupied with showing the Yellows she could Heal Stilling that she was doing the process by rote memory of how she had done it with Logain. <br />   She even says that &quot;It felt different with Logain -- it had with Suian as well -- but she kept telling herself, men and women were different.&quot; (pg.594) This implies that not only were men and women different, but women were not the same either. If Suian and Leane have different strong affinities, then they could be healed better with, say, Spirit and Water, or Spirit and Air. <br />   I don't believe the details are given when the healing is done with the Asha'man, but perhaps they used different flows to heal the Severed Aes Sedai.   <br /> <br />


created: 2002-08-19 17:38:48
subject: <b>Being healed of severing.</b>
body:
I believe in WH and when Logain was healed that the aes sedai healed by Flinn were brought up to thier full strength in the one power.  Likewise when Nyavea (sorry about spelling) heals Logain he is brought to his full strength in saidin.  This could be coincedence or something unique to each half of the one power.


created: 2002-09-16 18:59:47
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
I generally agree.  Although I don't believe that Rand will in any case presented here be likely to hand over Callandor to Logain.  Even if Logain kills Taim (which I doubt; at the most he will denounce Taim as a Darkfriend and humiliate him) Rand will still see Logain as just another man seeking power.<br /><br />Although, Logain IS one of my favorite characters <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-26 08:21:02
subject: <b>Taim-Demandred</b>
body:
I think it is possible Demandred to be Taim because the power of hate he feels towards Lews Terin(and now Rand)is stronger than his pride. As we know in the Age of Legends he was always behind Terin in everything: battles, power, etc. And because he didn't succeed in the many tries to kill Rand he is capable of such dirty work even though it lowers his (notorious) prestige.


created: 2003-04-04 03:25:28
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
opposite gender channelers can heal better than same gender healers. nuff said about that.<br /><br />I dunno about Logain getting callendor. It could make sense, since the sword take a link with two women...and he has two Aes Sedai bonded to him. But I do not think he would need it. Just a circle with his two AS would be enough, who needs Callendor? <br /><br />I am also thinking that Taim will at some point disguise himself as Rand, fufilling the Dream of Egwene's about &quot;Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet&quot; Or perhaps that Rand will use Taim's death to advantage to fake his own death? I dunno.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-04 16:30:37
subject: <b>strength in the power</b>
body:
Overall it seems to be a very solid theory, but as other people mentioned before, Logain's strength was not reduced. . .  in fact, the impression I got from the Salidar Aes Sedai's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> comments, as well as Nynaeve's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> reactions immediately after healing (about how she could barely hold the shield on him) was that he might have even become stronger than he was before.  I couldn't say for sure without checking again, but thats just the impression I got.


created: 2001-06-20 07:53:25
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
wotmania, Rand didn't not trust himself with the figure sa'angreal because of buffers.  He didn't trust himself because he is afraid of what he might do with all that power<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 16:56:25
subject: <b>Taim and Demandred</b>
body:
Personally, I believe that Taim is most certainly Demandred.  His personality matches Demandred so closely, and the thing with the patterns of the ages is that somone who is still alive from a past age will not be repeated in the current one(such as Birgitte being torn out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod and not being able to be spun out, causing discontinuity for Gaidal Cain)  As for the comment about building the army of trained Asha'man for Rand, I don't know if I'm the only one who's noticed where their loyalties really lie or not, but it seems most of them would follow Taim and completely disregard Rand if it came to conflict between the two.


created: 2002-02-04 03:50:32
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
i liked the logain becoming a hunter of the horn thing in the next turning of the wheel/next age! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> i'm not sure if this is feasible though. is it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 00:19:19
subject: <b>Umm..</b>
body:
I think you mis-read or mis-interpreted that... It looked more like Logain actually becoming a HERO of the horn, versus being a HUNTER of the horn. Two completely different things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Resident cynic.<br />KIWI and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 13:11:11
subject: <b>Stilling and age appearance</b>
body:
The argument that if Moiraine returns from 'Finnland stilled she will appear as young as Elayne isn't completely valid.<br /><br />In another theory thread, it is speculated with excellent evidence that Setalle Anan, the Innkeeper of the Wandering Woman in Ebou Dar, is an Aes Sedai who got burned out. With all of the evidence taken together, it seems she lost her ability to channel about twenty five years ago. Her appearance seems to suggests an age in the late middle years, say 60. So I can't take it as certain that an Aes Sedai who loses the Source automatically looks like a teenager.<br /><br />Somewhere it was asked, and suggested, that Thom himself appears to be around 50. I tend to think of his appearance as more in line with someone nearing 70, with all white hair and splindly-seeming limbs.<br /><br />Oh, and while we're discussing apparent age, let's take a look at Morgase. One very common thought about her is how she seems barely old enough to have a son Galad's age. She's a channeler, however weak, and that means she's got the slowing going for her. It is elsewhere remarked that she is too young to be insultingly calling Tallanvor &quot;Young Tallanvor&quot;. But in reality, she's likely as old as his mother, possibly more.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 19:06:45
subject: <b>Re: Moiraine and Stilling</b>
body:
Just a note on Morgase being older than Tallanvor, it was said she was only 5 years older then him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />AngelicBeast<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Take it as you want)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 10:48:51
subject: <b>The age won't matter</b>
body:
If Suian can have Garyth Bryne even though she had been stilled why could not Moraine have Thom?  How old you look does not seam to be a very strong argument.


created: 2003-01-01 08:49:42
subject: <b>Moiraine's and Thom's Ages</b>
body:
I don't know for sure how old she is, but let's look at the evidence.  She was an Accepted when Gitara Moroso had the Foretelling that the Dragon had been reborn.  She says in &quot;The Great Hunt&quot; to Verin with Siuan standing by that that was over (or almost, need to look it up) 20 years ago.  And from the way all the Aes Sedai talk you would think that being a Novice lasts at least ten years and being an Accepted another ten after that.  I know that isn't a hard and fast rule and I know there is no evidence directly relating the average number of years but they often talk like it takes a long time to become Aes Sedai.  So add that on top of the fact that she was probably a teenager when she found out she could channel, that makes her at a minimum of forty years old and maybe as old as 60.<br /><br />As for Thom he was a young man (albeit older than Morgase) when he was forced to flee from Andor.  Elayne is about 20 and he dandled her on his knee and she remembers it so figure its been around 17 years since then.  I would be happy guessing mid 50's for him.  As for his appearance let's look at what the man has had to deal with in his life.  He blames himself for his nephew Owyn's death, he had to flee for his life from Morgase, Elaida, Gareth Brynn and all the resources they could bring to bear, and since then he has lived as a gleeman, wondering where his next meal would come from and how much the next man would cheat him, traveling from country to country the while.  White hair?  Big deal.  Spindly?  Seem s healthy enough for me.  <br /><br />Well That's my two pence worth.<br /><br />Nimvin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Master of all I behold in my mind.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />The madness has claimed me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />I wonder how long it will be before <br />I break the world anew? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-07 13:46:47
subject: <b>Rands list</b>
body:
when Rand remember al of the woman dead because of him Moiraine is always on the top. She is always the first name.<br />And I belive that that list is the core of Rand's hardness.<br />However imagine the effect if one of them would turn back from the dead. Caudsane need to teach rand to laugh and cry. Min says that he needs a woman long gone and dead.<br />It sure would make him laugh and cry<br />thus Moiraine my not turn upp till the last battle. She might even be the dark ones prisoner...


created: 2001-06-26 13:42:41
subject: <b>Tower Of Ghengi</b>
body:
Maybe the Tower IS another opening to the Foxes' place. I think the problem with that is:How do you get in? Somewhere in The Eye Of The World I think Bayle Damon says it has no openings but Slayer obviously was able to get in while has was in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. I'm probably wrong but I bet Slayer just imagined himself inside. I bet Thom while have to go to T'A'R in the flesh via a gateway somewhat like what Rand used fighting Ravin(sp?). Then have someone like Egwene gateway him out of T'A'R once their inside and go resue Moiraine. Just bring Egwene with you 'cause otherwise it would be a tad hard getting out.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 03:21:57
subject: <b>Min and her viewings</b>
body:
Just thought I'd point out an obscure reference to one of Min's viewings that holds quite a bit of evidence for Moiraine NOT being dead.<br />Basically, we all know that Min's viewings are never wrong. Yet at one point, she says that the only viewing of hers that failed was Moiraine. (I don't know what viewing this was, but if someone could hazard a guess, I'd be much indebted to you). Thus we can conclude that Min's viewing was NOT wrong, and that Moiraine will come back to fulfill it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 08:56:32
subject: <b>Min's Viewing</b>
body:
I haven't got the books here, but from what i remember Min had a viewing where she saw Moiraine with Rand after Moiraine had 'died' going through the gateway. Her only thought was that even though all her other viewings were allways true this one couldn't be. I think she should be a little more positive about it and decide this was proof that Moiraine is coming back. <br /><br />and i think your right about the 'snake and foxes' link.


created: 2002-05-01 22:05:57
subject: <b>Here`s a thought.</b>
body:
The tower of Genji (everyone`s beleif as to how Thom and co. will reach the Finn-lands) only exists in T.A.R. (or so we have only seen so far.) So it would be very difficult to send all members of a party there. Especialy when few of them will be able to channel, or even fear the power.<br /><br />*side note: the way to open the tower of Genji relates to a celtic myth on how to enter the faerie relm. A Faerie mound must be circled 3 times counter-clockwise. In T.A.R. Perrin circles the tower twice looking for an enterance and when he attempts a third time Hopper stops him, and tells him not to do it again.*<br /><br />So, how would we get this group into the Finn-lands?<br /><br />The answer is simple enough. Portal stones can take a person, or persons into other worlds. Not just our world with different choices. And if you recall the symbols on the doors (a set of wavey lines, and an upside down triangle) these symbols seem oddly familiar. Perhaps they resemble Portal stone symbols? And, Portal stones are located in OUR world, and are thus easily accesable to all. It takes but one person strong enough to use one to work it for any number of people. <br /><br />*another side note: Moiraine and Lanfear both were trapped in there. And Lanfear is dead (hence Cyndane) Lan`s bond shifts. Shouldn`t Moiraine be dead? No! She is in a different world, and thus with no access to it, her bond no longer exists. And Lanfear was a Forsaken, and was connected to the shadow. Moiraine warns Egwene and co. in TSR against asking any questions involving the shadow. So, Lanfear could have been killed symply for her connection to the DO. Moiraine could still be alive.*<br /><br />By using a portal stone, a party could enter the finn-lands, and using the Snakes and foxes cheating idea, could defeat the finns, and rescue Moiraine.<br /><br />~Reece McCloud~<br /><br />There comes a day when all must face death. And on that day, I plan on running away crying and screaming like a little girl with a torn dress and a snake in her hair.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 20:28:14
subject: <b>Thom and Moiraine...Married?</b>
body:
The clues that Robert Jordan has left are apparent for those who pay close attention to the storyline.  First, there is Moiraine's comment to Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve in &quot;The Shadow Rising&quot;, when the three younger women jest about marriage, and Moiraine responds with a comment about knowing who she would wed better than they. Then there is the regal Aes Sedai's mysterious letter to the gleeman, the contents of which have yet to be revealed.  But consider Thom's reaction upon recieving and reading the letter...it is one of quiet sorrow.  Suggestive, isn't it?  And then there is Min's thoughts, which reveal at one point that her viewing about the Aes Sedai was the only one that had not come to pass, since she had died. Why? Because she isn't dead!  I think Min's viewing revealed that Moiraine would wed, and whether Min knew that she marry Thom or not, I believe Moiraine herself knew!  Remember Moiraine's last letter to Rand, in which she confides her foreknowledge of the events surrounding her death, she mentions that she had learned other things that &quot;did not concern him&quot;.  Is a future marriage to the clever gleeman one of the things that was revealed to her within the ter'angreal?  I believe so.  So sit back and await the return of the woman, the legend, the Aes Seadi...Lady Moiraine of House Damodred...or maybe Moiraine Merrilin.


created: 2005-03-26 17:56:13
subject: <b>Ooooold theory...</b>
body:
It's so much fun to read about all the things that didn't happen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 00:43:07
subject: <b>Not firesticks but ......</b>
body:
.....fireworks. Mat used fireworks to get into the Stone of Tear. I don't think he learns about firesticks until Winter's Heart. When Aludra used a firestick to light the lantern in the stable, Thom asked her how she lit it so fast. She would not tell him. so mat did not leran about them then.<br /><br />I do agree with you that Mat and Thom will go into the tower of Ghenjei. I also agree that he will bring firesticks for fire his ashen'darei (is that how its spelled?) as iron But I believe its music that does something to 'finns, so I think it will be Thom's precious harp to produce the music.<br /><br />I think that this upcoming scene will real intense and definatly one of the good ones.<br /><br />If anyone knows of anything I missed or got wrong, please let me know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-14 00:04:35
subject: <b>Read the theries about mat</b>
body:
there is one which tells us that Mat  is going to inent the cannon!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-11 17:26:11
subject: <b>Mat has to go</b>
body:
Mat pretty much has to go to defeat the snake/foxes becuase if you have noticed RJ has connected the &quot;children's rhyme&quot; to him durring that game that he and Oliver play.  This has to mean that Mat's going to go.


created: 2002-11-30 18:40:42
subject: <b>Mat HAS to go</b>
body:
I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but I was reading theories and a thought occured to me.  Besides every other thing that has been said about Mat's inclusion in the rescue operation, I think there's one more thing.  The only time we got to see inside Finnland was with Mat, when he went through the doorways in Tear and Rhuidean.  I don't think that's happenstance.  He's been through twice, with pretty good results, considering. And he can speak the Old Tongue fluently.  Thom might know a lot about the Old Tongue, but I don't think he has the &quot;Tai'shar Manetheren&quot; thing going on, and certainly doesn't have ancient memories in his head.  That would solve the language problem pretty neatly.  <br /><br />Ok, I guess that was two more things.  So sue me.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-12-17 07:53:49
subject: <b>Not Mat though</b>
body:
i think mat will go, but not be the leader of the party. thom will take charge after entering, having so much more experience than mat, and seeing mat almost over the edge will hate for the finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 15:29:30
subject: <b>Moiraine stonger than before</b>
body:
This is just a thought but seing parallels in TWOT &amp; LOTR, I've thought this for a long time but I wondered if Moiraine would come back stronger than hse had been fefore.  She got trapped in the Fox place where they give you things so I thought maybe she would get some really sweet stuff that would make her more powerful than before like Gandalf the White vs. Gandalf the Grey.<br /><br />Just my two cents<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-09 16:21:46
subject: <b>Stilling...</b>
body:
Also, I think that Thom is very much so over the fact that she is Aes Sedai.  I seem to recall him saying that all Aes Sedai aren't so bad, once you get to know them (after Mat gives him Moiriane's letter).  So I think that he will accept her as Aes Sedai now.  She did say she was going to teach him that not all Aes Sedai intended harm (when she sent him to Tanchico).


created: 2002-07-03 03:55:44
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Weve all heard numerous theories about the possibility of lanfear and moraine BOTH being a part of Cyndane<br /><br />But we also know that cyndane is much weaker in the power than lanfear<br /><br />Weve also been introduced to the idea that when Moraine comes back (which I personally believe will happen) she will be stronger, I also agree with this there are just to many parrallels between her and gandalf<br /><br />So as an explanation to how this could happen, Maybe just maybe when Lanfear and Moraine fell through the doorway to the world of the finns somehow they swapped strength in the power.<br /><br />this would explain Cyndanes sudden weakness and it would also make Moraine more useful to Rand when she finally does return, because think of it Moraines usefulness would be extremely limited to rand with the emergence of all these new extremely powerful channellers<br />anyway that just occurred to me and it will be interesting to see what you all think of it<br /><br />peaceout


created: 2002-09-07 07:53:32
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
When Graendal first met Cyndane, she commented to herself that Cyndane was stronger than she herself was. Now from Cyndanes POV, we know she is weaker than she once was, but I don't think a whole lot weaker because I don't think Moiraine was stronger in the power than Graendal, which she would have had to have been if her and Lanfear's strength were simply switched.<br /><br />I do think either Moiraine was stilled or she died and was brought back to life. Otherwise how would her bond with Lan have been severed. There is no mention of the bond being affected when she went through the first doorway in Tear, so I find it unlikely it would have been severed simply by stepping through the second.


created: 2001-05-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>To wotmania's response.</b>
body:
Remember, in "A Crown of Swords", Min says that Moirain's viewing is the only one that has ever failed, hence how that works.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 07:53:15
subject: <b>Min's never wrong</b>
body:
Min ONLY thinks that viewing failed... it was about Moiraine, and she thinks Moiranine is dead (incidentally, she also mentions that Rand will almost certainly fail without a woman who is dead and gone... guess who?). So, she believes her viewing was wrong. When Moiraine shows up alive and well, the viewing will come true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> That was balefire. It could burn your thread clear out of the pattern. Now, after all this excitement, you're probably wondering... does he have any power left? But the real question is... do you feel lucky? Well, do you, goat-kisser?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 16:53:08
subject: <b>Thom can't....</b>
body:
...blow the horn until Mat is dead, and i dont see that happening anytime soon!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 14:20:27
subject: <b>WTF</b>
body:
That theory aint so tight. Maybe the woman who's dead and gone is Kari Al`Thor! Ok that's bullcrap. But i really think your wrong on that one, she was too big a character in the series to be just killed off. Jordan probably just made it look like she was killed to make it interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 21:28:22
subject: <b>Mat DID die...</b>
body:
Mat died in Caemlyn after Rand thought that Morgase had died and invaded to fight Rhavin. &quot;There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him. Mats smoking boots lay a dozen paces where mat himself sprawled on his back. Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver fox-head, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man's channeling (916, The Fires of Heaven).&quot;<br /> Later, Rand, by killing Rahvin with balefire brought Mat and the others back to life. Because balefire makes an event as if it never happened, I don't know if the bond between the horn and Mat was broken, but Mat was definitly dead.


created: 2002-03-08 03:05:43
subject: <b>Brainstorm!</b>
body:
I had never considered the Horn Of Valere might be used to bring all sorts of folks back.  I disagree with your view that Moiraine is dead, but nonetheless your theory has really sparked some new theories of my own!  Good job!<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-12 16:28:27
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
I think it is a good theory, but I personally think he already had the help of the woman dead and gone.  Do you remember the Aiel woman who dissappeared in Shadar Logoth?  I believe she was the woman &quot;dead and gone&quot; because everybody believed her to have died.  In a way she does because she turns even more wild by the time Rand shows up and is maybe infested with the evil around her.  I believe when she distracted Sammael, that was the help he needed.    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 04:50:37
subject: <b>WHAT????</b>
body:
first I agree that mat is not connected to the horn.  because mat has died if you believe that he died after the elfinn or in caymlin he has died once like the alfinn told him.  in regards to the first theory the alfinn told moirian that she WILL talk to thom again.  so... sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />Disaries<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />The only ogier to be born out side the stedding<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 12:59:14
subject: <b>The aelfinn told Moiraine what?</b>
body:
Gee, I don't seem to recall that we ever heard anything the Aelfiin told Moiraine, nor the questions she asked them.  So you're wrong.  What we DID hear is Moiraine tell Thom that he will srvive Tanchico and she will see him again.  So if she honestly believed she would see him again, than she isn't telling a lie.  Of course, I agree that Moiraine is NOT dead, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 10:55:28
subject: <b>she is not dead!</b>
body:
she can't be, she just can't! i mean, where would the story be if she was really dead. she was with rand and co. from the beginning, and it's her job to help him in the last battle, so she WILL be there, somehow, even if we're not sure how.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 22:42:53
subject: <b>I am tottally rehashing someone else's theory so DON'T quoste me but?</b>
body:
Didn't morain give that little blue jewel she wears to Eggwen or Elayne? SO maybe it means Tom will rescue one of them? I don't remember what book or anything, I just remember it being said that she had given the jewel away. Personally, even though I don't like Moiraine(I don't think you are really supposed to), I think it would be a real pity to kill her and have her resurected as a hero. I mean she is a good character, I just can't really see Jordan doing that. my 2 cents.


created: 2002-09-24 17:34:34
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
No; Moiraine was wearing her kesiera (the blue stone) when she fell through the ter'angreal; there's a comment when she comes to get Rand to go down to the docks about how it sparkles on her forehead.  If Thom is going to pull that blue stone out of the fire, it's gonna have to be Moiraine that's attached to it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation.<br />-Georges Clemenceau<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 12:07:11
subject: <b>Okay...</b>
body:
If Moiraine gets called back by the Horn of Valere, what will she do?  Channel?  Can dead people channel?  I mean, the rest of the other heroes, as far as we know, have normal fighting means.  Birgitte with her bow, Artur with his sword, etc.  I doubt channeling is possible there, so I disagree with this theory..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-26 21:46:49
subject: <b>who said anything about channeling?</b>
body:
thank god for someone who is on the same side as me!<br /><br />and anyway, min's viewing never said anything about moiraine CHANNELING, it just says Rand will fail without moiraine THERE. so, if moirain does come back with the horn because she is concidered a hero(im not even gonna go into WHO will blow the horn)she could still do something to help Rand without acctualy channeling.we all just assume moiraine will use the one power because she is an aes sedai.<br />so there!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-04-02 18:29:57
subject: <b>This is the firs argument...</b>
body:
...That I have EVER seen that I agree with for Moiraine &quot;coming back&quot; in any way whatsoever.<br /><br />-Mat HAS died once, horn's free<br />-IF Moiraine was tied to the horn now (don't see why not) and IF Thom blows it, that would be a great way for a LOT of those prophecies to work out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you don't already know what it means, I'm not going to tell you.   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Dovie'andi se tovya sagain ... Time to roll the dice.&quot; <br />--Mat Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 02:57:51
subject: <b>Agreement</b>
body:
I think that since Nynaeve could heal gentled Logain back to his original power or perhaps more, perhaps the same could be done by a male to a female channeller. Maybe female can't heal female, and male can't heal male. So perhaps Moiraine can still make a comeback more powerfully than ever. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 07:05:31
subject: <b>It doesn't matter how Moiraine comes back, just that she does</b>
body:
It doesn't really matter if Moiraine comes back stilled (and is then Healed by Nynaeve) or weaker in the Power than before. Moiraine's strength lies in her knowledge - that is why she is of such great help to Rand. <br /><br />Elayne has already acknowledged that she and Egwene (and therefore Nynaeve) are much stronger in the Power than Moiraine, just untrained. Siuan also pointed out to the Salidar sisters that she may have been stilled, but her brain was still in working order. <br /><br />If you think about the way Moiraine was helping Rand, once they left the Two Rivers, it was mainly through experience and brain power.


created: 2001-08-09 10:47:14
subject: <b>healing stilling</b>
body:
In Heart, it was said that one fo the Asha'man (Flinn I think) was able to heal the stilled Aes Sedai that had been captured after they tried to take Rand.  They were said to be the same strength in the power as they had been when they were stilled.  So if she were to come back stilled, she could return to her previous strength.


created: 2001-09-24 22:35:19
subject: <b>MY 2c</b>
body:
It is y view that it is possible that by the time she comes back egwene will have developed a new hierachy in the tower.<br /><br />So Moraine will fit right in<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-20 19:31:17
subject: <b>Gandalf's Power</b>
body:
The comparison of magic in Arda and channeling in Randland is very questionable. Whileas Gandalf had magic powers because he was technically a divine spirit from the beginning of the universe (read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales on the Istari), not a human, and his use of magic is not confined to more or less rigid weaves, in WoT people are innately born with a certain degree of channeling talent, be it dormant, or an active spark, and have to train and so on, and so on... Gandalf uses some sort of magic two times, once in Rivendell to create an illusion in the river there, the second time in the mountain pass to light wood, and even that very reluctantly. After his &quot;death and rebirth&quot; (he doesn't actually die) he doesn't use magic altogether, so it is not at all possible as to how much his magical power has changed. Moiraine also had to advise caution in using the One Power in fear of detection by the Shadowspawn (this, indeed is very similar to Gandalf, but it happens to a much lesser degree). Out of these comparisons alone, it is entirely impossible to find out how powerful Moiraine will come out of Finnland even if Jordan were to follow the Lord of the Rings as closely as possible (which he doesn't, comparing the degree of guidance Moiraine and Gandalf give - whileas Gandalf is just this close to taking all of the Fellowship by their hands and leading them that way, who follow him because they have absolutely no idea on what to do, Moiraine tries to manipulate things in a way the circumstances won't permit anything else to be done than what she wants).


created: 2002-02-16 04:09:34
subject: <b>Laughter and Tears..!?</b>
body:
Could it be that when Moiraine is rescued, or comes back of her own devices.. weaker or not.  WHEN she comes bak, as we all undoubtedly expect her to, then.. could it not be her presence that gives Rand reson for laughter and tears.?!<br /><br />Think about it... here is the only Aei Sadai that you have ever trsted.. well in the sligtest degree anyways.. but trusted none the less.  I can't see Rand asking fealty from her, but he could be overjoyed to see her alive.. think you not?<br /><br />Cadasune will ofcourse have a major role, but I think thast Moiraine will be the catalyst, the instigator if you will, to the whole kind an' kabudel.<br /><br />Just my two coppers.


created: 2002-05-31 13:09:26
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
I agree with Darklans. Whenever Rand lists the women who have died because of him Moiraine is always top of that list and it this list that makes him harden himself everytime. TO have her removed from the list would be almost redemption for him


created: 2002-08-25 23:00:16
subject: <b>What`s the power of the Power?</b>
body:
Up until Moiraine`s untimely &quot;demise&quot; her strength in the Power has been rather un important. It`s her grace as a woman, her conections, and her strength as a person that have mattered. If she comes back, whether she is stilled or not, she will more than likely hold the same authority as always. So far, everyone who has been stilled, that we`ve come across, has had rather poor control over their emotions. Moiraine on the other hand, has been almost unphasable. So, thus Moiraine, with the Power, or without, is still the same blue-eyed hardass we`ve all come to love.<br /><br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye. Reuben Ahborsen, Book keeper, lord of trivia, and all around annoying person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 23:43:12
subject: <b>Moiraine is plays the role of Gandalf the Grey... but...</b>
body:
Cadsuane plays the role of the more powerful Gandalf the White.<br /><br />similar to Gandalf anyway...<br /><br />Maybe Rand is the part of Gandalf that is the foe of the DO and now after WH he will die and come back stronger.


created: 2002-09-20 03:03:40
subject: <b>Moiraine's power</b>
body:
(If and) When she comes back, I'm pretty sure she'll have been stilled and have come to terms with it. I mean, RJ constantly refers to the need to have something to fill the gap left by losing the power, and her need is strong enough to have allowed her into TEotW twice, so she'll be just fine with no power. Rand totally trusts her now. No more of this &quot;he trusted her halfway.&quot; Since she died, he's been more like &quot;Damn, what I wouldn't give up for Moiraine's help.&quot; <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Old habits die hard<br /><br />Nynaeve will be the one to Heal her severing. First, Moiraine knows nothing of the Ashaman and having trained in the tower fearing men channeling won't just be happy-happy all of a sudden. Second, by showing she's the better person by asking her, it'll piss Nynaeve off and make her tug her braid. Nynaeve will do it to top her, despite her worries off what will happen to her bond to Lan (poor man). Lan gets screwed all the way around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">So I'm just sitting there all la-dee-da <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> when this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> drops out of nowhere, and Wham! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Son of a mother! Me beautiful eye is on fire! So now I'm all like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 02:27:29
subject: <b>On the Character Of Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White</b>
body:
I would like to correct a previous post on this blackboard. Gandalf did die after he killed the balrog. He was then sent back as Gandalf the White. I do not know how far you could go in the Gandalf-Moiraine connection. When Gandalf came back to Middle Earth, he was second in power only to the Dark Lord(Not counting beings ouside Middle Earth-like the Valar). And even though Gandalf the White does not go around shooting fireballs, he is invulnerable to almost any melee attack. To parallel Gandalf's change, Moiraine's change would have to be massive. Then again Moiraine did and knew many unexpected things.


created: 2003-04-25 11:08:24
subject: <b>Important to remember...</b>
body:
It is important to remember that Jordan did not &quot;get&quot; Moiraine in the underworld from Tolkien(if Moiraine is in the underworld--which is quite likely), anymore than Stracynski got Sheridan in the underworld from Tolkien.<br /><br />They got it from where Tolkien got it, the Greeks.<br /><br />And whether you are talking about Orpheus, or Ulysses, or Aeneas, they come back changed, and usually wiser.  Maybe more powerful...


created: 2004-08-15 13:55:47
subject: <b>Mithrandir in a dress</b>
body:
In some sense it was always obvious Moiraine would return, given the strength of the Moiraine/Gandalf parallels. The Eye of the World paralleled The Fellowship of the Ring so closely (and I think RJ has said this was deliberate), that Moiraine's narrative arc was more or less predictable. In tEotW/tFotR, we have Rand/Frodo the hero, his companions Matt/Merry and Perrin/Pippin, his father/uncle Tam/Bilbo (who himself has had his own adventures), and so on. They are taken out of their sheltered lives by Aes Sedai/wizard Moiraine/Gandalf, assisted by the uncrowned king Lan/Aragorn, pursued by black riders. Baerlon was Bree, Tar Valon was Rivendell, Shayol Ghul was Mount Doom, Padan Fain was Gollum, Bela was Bill and so on. Sam became Egwene in one of the many translations from the gentle sexism of Tolkien's time to our own more enlightened age. Thereafter the plotline deviated from Lord of the Rings to follow the path Jordan was experimenting with. What is clear, I think, is that Jordan had the 'core' story of Rand mapped out right from the start, whereas the myriad of secondary and tertiary characters and plotlines developed as the books progressed. It feels very much as if Moiraine, tied so closely to the Tolkien paradigm, had her fate mapped out by RJ in the earliest of his notes. I would be prepared to bet RJ knew even when writing tEotW that Moiraine would apparently die and then return - this would have been part of his core story from the outset. The problem is that by expanding his world and his story to the degree that he has, Moiraine's role in the core story has become largely undermined by later developments. Quite simply, there have been several books, thousands of pages and countless new characters introduced since Moiraine vanished, and her return now simply cannot have the same impact as Gandalf's did. In its width, Jordan's story has become War and Peace more than Lord of the Rings. The only parts of the core story which retain relevance are those exclusively relating to Rand and his character arc. For one I am saddened by this, since I am increasingly frustrated by the books from about five onwards, as they become cluttered by whole reams of what seems like unnecessary diversion from the 'real' story. I would happily kill off about a hundred of the characters and dozens of the subplots, and focus on Rand, which is the good stuff. Whereas the first two books were brimming with brilliance, the others have become diluted by the sheer expanse of the narrative. Fantastic elements still crop up in the later books, principally the Ashaman plotlines, but the purity of the original idea has become swamped. This may seem like an unwarranted moan, but I think it links importantly to the main point, which is that Wheel of Time is now so bloated that it doesn't matter much whether Moiraine comes back or not. And that's a terrible shame as I think that had the series been leaner and more focussed Moiraine's return would have rocked. She was one of the best characters, and her re-emergence should have been a critical point in the series. As it is, I fear the impact will be lessened


created: 2004-10-30 02:43:04
subject: <b>Complete Agreement</b>
body:
Well said Johannis, I was about to say most of the same things myself. Also, it's important to note that Aes Sedai play a very different role in the last few books than they did early on- early on they were all-powerful, whereas now it is revealed that wilders, Windfinders, Wise Ones, damane, and even the Kin have powers which in some ways at least surpass their own (especially in brute strength), not to mention Forsaken/ Black Tower. Moiraine was originally considered strong in the Power, but now there are so many stronger than her that her strength is really more of a liability than anything else. Basically, &quot;inflation&quot; has distorted everything to the point that Moiraine's aid seems a small thing (other than the &quot;laughter and tears&quot; aspect), unless she gained new knowledge or powers in Finnland which seems iffy. <br /><br />The whole Moiraine/Gandalf connection seems valid EXCEPT  the notion that Gandalf was &quot;No.2&quot; in Middle Earth is rather irritating... being WoT fans we are all very strength-conscious, but I doubt that Tolkein was nearly as interested in precisely charting the horsepower of all his characters. When you think about it the only thing in LotR which can be called a duel was Gandalf's confrontation of Saruman, but really Gandalf did very little magic for most of the book and mainly relied on his wisdom to see them through. Besides, Sauron was gobs &quot;stronger&quot; than Gandalf and look how much that helped...


created: 2005-12-30 14:20:49
subject: <b>see-saw affect</b>
body:
this has been in my head now for a couple of weeks, but i wasn't sure where to put it, so here it is. The wheel of time requires balance in all things, when moirane and lanfear entered the ter'angreal  that route was destroyed but lanfear was brought back as cyndane by the dark one hawever when she returned we are informed that she is far weaker than what she was originaly [i'm not sure but i think somewhere it is mentioned that one of the women fordaken (not sure who haven't got a copy close to hand) sees how weak she is] i think it possible that she has only moiranes strength now and that the two had their powers switched. This i believe means that when moirane returns she will be far stronger, as strong as one of the strongest women channelers there has ever been.<br />LL


created: 2006-11-25 05:33:25
subject: <b>yeah, we were like, Gandalf levelled, dude!</b>
body:
interesting approach, in that last bit there... I have to admit I had wondered what was exactly the nature of L/C's reduction in power (how it had come about...)


created: 2001-06-27 11:32:20
subject: <b>D'oh</b>
body:
Sorry, but Moiriane will actually be a young adul: late 20s.<br />Why? <br />She and Siuan joined the WT at the same time. Siuan did not become a girl on stilling.<br />Basically their aging was slowed due to the One Power. So they did age a bit. Especially since the Oaths seem to lessen the slowing.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 16:45:59
subject: <b>Why would Moraine be stilled?</b>
body:
Moraine went through the gateway the same way as Lanfear but that doesn't mean she will suffer thee same fate, if Thom does indeed rescue Moraine what will be the means of her being stilled, as you can only be stilled with the power Thom doesn't have the means to still Moraine, and she is too disciplined an Aes Sedai to take in too much of the power.<br />What I think we will see is a big change in Moraine for her experience but who can say what that change will be?


created: 2001-07-21 00:34:44
subject: <b>She will be back!</b>
body:
I am confident that Moiraine will be in the series again alive and well.  Min's viewing about Rand's success being tied to her was pretty instumental in my thinking that.  If this turning of the wheel of time is like the others, he will beat the Dark One.  To beat him, he needs to have her around.  <br /><br />I don't necessarily think Thom will rescue her.  I personally think she will come out of Finnland out of the Tower of Ghenjei (I am sure the spelling is wrong...  the book that mentions it is about 100 miles north of me right now).  They made mention of it being difficult to get out of, but Moiraine is clever.  They specifically mentioned the Tower and how hard it is to come out of, so I think it will play some role in her return.<br /><br />I also think she will be stilled.  Stilled women's warder's bonds are severed.  The warder's of Elaida's kidnappers who were stilled went crazy like their Aes Sedai were dead.  Lan had the symptoms.  Anyway, I'm rambling...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Andrea<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Micro Lab <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Unlicensed Healer of the Sick and Injured <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Bonded to Inner_Turmoil Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 14:20:27
subject: <b>Sort of, but also not</b>
body:
She won't remain stilled because now they know how to cure stilling. Rand could order an Asha'man to do it, Flinn (i think it was) is loyal to him. Or if there are no AM around, she could be healed by an AS.<br />Plus, she was powerful for the White Tower, but they're all so weak it's ridiculous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I amuse myself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 19:58:22
subject: <b>Easier solution to stilling</b>
body:
Nyneave and the Yellows do not need to develop a better method of un-stilling. If Moiraine is stilled, they only have to get one of the Asha'man to un-still her. Somewhere in Winter's Heart Cadsuane hears about one of the TAS Rand stilled being healed back to full strength by Flinn. This is much easier than hoping the Yellos develop a better method.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">They ran through the trees, and they ran through the forests,<br />They ran through the bushes where the beavers wouldn't go.<br />They ran so fast they forgot to take their culture,<br />Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico...o...o<br />-The War of 1812</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 23:07:14
subject: <b>Moirane will not be stilled</b>
body:
Jordan was very deliberate in the wording of Moiraine's last appearance.  Lanfear was not only embracing Saidar, but also using a relatively potent Angreal, Moiraine was not embracing at all.  Moiraine attacked Lanfear physically, shoving her through the doorway Ter'angreal.  I always thought that it was Lanfear holding that much power that fried the doorway, which in turn severed Moiraine and Lan's bond.  I don't really think that either was stilled.  It seems clear that Lanfear died, her decrease in power a punishment by either the Finns or the DO.  Until I see her back in the real world though, I don't think there is enough evidence in the books to suggest she will be anything less than what she was before...


created: 2003-04-21 14:38:18
subject: <b>The Finnland World</b>
body:
I can't remember which book it was, but in the book two of the three ta'veren enter into finnland in tear to get answers, along with Moiraine. <br /><br />In there Mat is told that there are to many like him in the world and it is causing the world to destruct. What if in rescuing Moiraine, all three ta'veren are there at the same time. <br /><br />Rand either through the gate at tear or from the way he can travel to the dream land in person, Mat through the Tower, and Perrin through his dreams with the wolfs. By each ta'veren coming into finnland one at a time could severly weeken the ways to get to finnland, thus opening up the other ways for the ta'veren to access Finnland and rescue Moiraine. <br /><br />Doing this will also destroy the tower and the world of the finns, which I'm sure wouldn't hurt anybody's feelings especialy Mat's.


created: 2005-03-16 21:25:32
subject: <b>Moiraine Stilled?</b>
body:
Of course not you fools. Stilling can be healed remember?. Shame on those who doubt this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a dark seed growing<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath<br />Trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 10:44:10
subject: <b>What Jay means...</b>
body:
What Jay means is that when Moghedien meets Moridin for the first time, she thinks to herself that Moridin has the same build as Rand. Something like that.


created: 2002-04-11 19:20:43
subject: <b>I always though that Ishamael was Osangar</b>
body:
Ok Im new to the site so if you've been debating this forever well sorry.  well heres the thing.  It is let known that Ishamael helped create the Dark Ones creatures like trollocs and grolm (off the top of my head).  and when Osangar and Arangar are introduced, Osangar makes a reference that he helped create the dark ones minoins,  and that he was particullary nasty at it.  <br />  so if thats not true then whats up with Osangar?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Just for the record, south carolina loves the c*ck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-17 08:59:29
subject: <b>actually...</b>
body:
umm, Lowride, it was Aginor who made shadowspawn not Ishamael. Ishamael was transkigrated into Moridin, and Aginor was brought back as Osangar who infiltrated the Asha'man as COrlan Dashiva then was killed by Black Ajah/Dragonsworn Aes Sedai in WInter's Heart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Seek knowledge from wherever you can, even unto China&quot;. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 23:46:49
subject: <b>I thought this fact was obvious</b>
body:
I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that Ishy was Moridin, even from the beginning. Trust is one thing, but the other was Osan'gar's comment about Moridin being mad with the power even before he was ever sealed in the bore(WH). When I saw this comment, I was absolutely certain it was Ishmael, for everyone was always talking about Ishmael being a mad man and he'd be the only likely candidate of the foresaken to be chosen to become Moridin. So, you're right on with this one, man. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lover of women <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of Chaos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />The Trickster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Pat Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 11:51:20
subject: <b>HI!</b>
body:
It's like one mind! You're the first person whose theory I completely agree with! Have you taken the Personalty test? Who are you? Please say you're Rand!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-29 20:18:57
subject: <b>Something I noticed...</b>
body:
I was going over &quot;Dragonmount&quot; in EotW and I noticed that Ishamael's middle name was Morin. Hmmm... suspiciously close to Moridin, and being the clever bastard that he is, old Ishy probably thinks he's pretty ingenious right about now.    I agree with you, by the way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am stealthy like ninja...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>moridin its ishamael</b>
body:
its is Aes sedai from AOL(6 or 7) unweaving chapter, and was also free for the prison of the dark one same chapter, he is mad like Ishamael (mi opinion),he was also the strongest. and want to use Rand, and a reason of the nine book i dont well remenber<br />


created: 2001-06-19 13:29:46
subject: <b>MORIDIN</b>
body:
I agree Moridin is not Ishamael.<br /><br />I do think Lanfear is Cyndane.<br />In WH, when Rand and Nynaeve are cleansing saidin, Cyndane is tring to get close. In her mind she is sayoing to herself she wants to kill Rand and that they could have ruled the world together. She was angry he was with another woman using the Choeden Kal instead of with her. That sounds like Lanfear to me.


created: 2001-08-30 12:05:06
subject: <b>Moridin=Ishy=Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
aaight, yall...let the crucifixion begin...<br /><br />I believe that all three (Moridin, Ishy, SH) are all the same spirit.  What the heck am I talking about, you say?   Peep.  Ishy gets waxed by Rand.  He's all suprised and dead and stuff, and the forces of shadow are all like &quot; Dude, this is weak, we need Ishy back.&quot;  So the DO is all like, &quot;yeah, that's a good idea, he did a pretty good job for all these years, etc.&quot;  Now, enter Shaidar Haran.  It's been a while for me, but I think he enters the story when Moggy gets taken to get her mind trapped.  SH is taller than the average Fade, and he laughs, something myrdrall never do.  It's been well established that the Mask of Mirrors is a very useful tool, but also that it has its limitations. (height, etc...)  Now, a mindtrapped Moggy is much more useful a tool than a dead moggy, which is what would have been the result had Ishy tried to trap Moggy's mind in his own form.  (Would you just give someone your soul?  I wouldn't.)  So, he uses the TP to weave a mask of mirrors.  Why does Moridin use the TP exclusively?  I don't really know, but my guess is that the ability to channel saidin was burned out of him somehow when he got smoked.  Well, I've got class in like one minute...so I'll leave the rest till later.  Lemme know whacha think, K!?! <br /> Until later, the Black Death recedes to the ether...


created: 2001-11-20 21:14:05
subject: <b>Exactly. But they're all the DO, too.</b>
body:
If you object with some claim about the scences from their point of view seeming to condradict my claim, well you have to remember that Ishy's mad.  Also, the DO isn't infallible.  He screws up and gets mad and all sorts of other things.  Stuff we don't see in the creator, but do see in men.  <br /><br />If Ishy isn't the DO, I say he is at least Shadar Haran.  If not Ishy, then maybe the bugger is Asmodean...It would be an interesting plot twist.<br /><br />As to why Ishy should automatically be Nae'blis, well wotmania, he wasn't before he got himself killed.  Why would the DO reward him for giving up Callandor, letting Be'lal die and dying himself?<br /><br />Bah, my logic is flawwed.  I'm tired.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-20 18:35:31
subject: <b>Umm....</b>
body:
Umm...no, Ishy is Mordin. First, Mordin knows losts a stuff from the AoL's and second, only Ishy channeled the TP to any real degree. All the other forsaken were so scared to use it that they would only use it if they were about to get killed, and even then, some of them didn't. Second, I do think the DO would reward Ishy for over 3000 years of excellent service. It seems to me that Ishy is the most probably person to be made Naeblis. Therefore, Ishy IS Mordin, the reasons to recap:<br />1) Excelent knowlege from the A of L<br />2) Channels the TP almost exclusively (something only Ishy did)<br />3) Ishy did have a really good track record for beating up on mankind, it would make sense that the DO would bring back his most prized fighter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 19:01:22
subject: <b>how bout no scott.</b>
body:
Why turn him into a fade, that is pretty pointless. And can the dark one even do that; he needed the forsaken to make the trollocs and fades. There is also Moghedin, sorry if i misspelled her name, she said moridin was mad long before he went to teh shadow. so I am guessing she knows who he is, perhaps Ishamael, again sorry bout the spelling


created: 2002-07-02 15:15:20
subject: <b>Ishmael is Death</b>
body:
Most people out there believe that just because Ishy failed the DO that the DO will punish him.  If you notice the only Forsaken yet to be forgiven is Asmoden, he betrayed the Dark and wasn't to beneficial to boot.  Ishy had a slightly better track record than most of the Forsaken.  Of course he failed, he failed before too otherwise the DO would be ruling this world, but even an incompetent leader knows that failure is a possibility and that you aren't supposed to kill your best people because they screwed up.  Mordin can also be seen as Ishy because like Ishy, Mordin has this very dark and philosophical look at life.  Ishy was a complet mix of philosophy and ego, just like Moridin, afterall only idiots and crazy people call themselves death.


created: 2003-03-10 07:09:31
subject: <b>How about...</b>
body:
Moridin is MOIRAINE reborn, while we're at it. Jeez. Of course he's Ishamael...<br />As for Shaidar Haran, maybe he's the Hand of the Dark...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 08:50:27
subject: <b>Back up . . .</b>
body:
Does the DO see death as failure?  We have an assumption here that he does.  Moghedien failed and had far greater restrictions than the 'gars, and it seems plausible that the DO and Ishamael had merged; not all the way, but to a point.  Remember the &quot;More than half mad, less then half human quote&quot;?  Perhaps Ishamael was an extension of the DO.  When he died, it was not the failure of Ishamael, just a tool being worn out and needing to be replaced.  In other words, Moridin.  Perhaps death in and of itself is not failure, but death with a resounding defeat is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-30 23:03:42
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
yes cyndane is lanfear<br /><br />for absolute proof look in WH when Rand is cleansing saidin and the others are defending him. That former damane i cant remember her name attacks cyndane to which cyndane remarks something along the lines of, &quot;she is more powerful than cyndane was before she was given to the Aefellin and Eifellen.&quot;<br /><br />and also i would say that moridon is ishy, another proof not mentioned before is that ishy was a notable tactician and moridon is incredibly talented at that advanced form of stones, which would require a highly strategic mind


created: 2001-06-29 21:00:33
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
This makes total sense, aside from the fact that RJ said Sammael is toast. I would just change it to say that Moridin killed Sammael, and it makes a whole lot of sense.<br /><br />The first logical one I've read for why the wanderer could be Moridin, and why he would help Rand. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/495.gif" /> This was either the start of something bad or the end of something stupid.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-11 22:28:51
subject: <b>Another Thing</b>
body:
... But Moridin said he wouldn't kill Sammael for Rand!<br /><br />But mainly I'm here to agree with the Admin comment, that the forsaken can use TP but they don't, though I expect most of them have had that privilege revoked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 01:51:27
subject: <b>What if...?</b>
body:
What if when Mashadar touces a person, it doesn't kill them, but captures them in a way. Maybe mashadar only enslaves the souls of those it touches thereby adding to itself. If this was true then Sammael would not be completely dead even if Mashadar did touch him. Thus the Dark One would not be able to resurect Sammael because he is not actually completely dead. Just a fourth option.<br /><br />From what I understood, all of the Forsaken CAN use the True Power but are too afraid to.


created: 2002-06-12 08:28:39
subject: <b>Sammael is Toast</b>
body:
Robert Jordan's exact words were, &quot;Sammael is toast.&quot;  That sums that up.<br /><br /><br /><br />~Belzedar Coren Torak


created: 2006-04-23 13:16:10
subject: <b>He isn`t coming back</b>
body:
Mashadar devours the souls and bodies of those it touches. <br /><br />No soul = no ressurection.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 12:32:22
subject: <b>stupidity...</b>
body:
'there is a possibility that u only exist so u could set up as a worning 2 others...'<br /><br />it is more likely that ishy IS moridin cause ishy held the other forsaken for 3000 years while htey were prisoned wit the DO!<br />a 'little bird' wispered in Arthur Hawkings ears and he attacked Tar Valon...<br />the reasons (these plus a whole bunch of those) were ALL discussed for aproximatly...a YEAR!!!<br />but the truth is that we cannot REALY know who moridin is cause he never realy shown ANY ability for the One Power...<br />he always used the True Power...<br />so till RJ will tell us we couldn't say otherwise...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 11:23:36
subject: <b>Yes he IS!</b>
body:
Who else could he be.  <br />Anyway, Ishy did not claim to be the Dark One.  If you notice, he never says straight out that is Shai'tan.  He would say something like, &quot;Serve me.  Serve the Dark One.&quot;<br />One would think that they are one and the same, but he never makes that claim.  As for the Trollocs, how do you know what they think?  They might have just known that he was above them, and that that was enough.  Like in Shadar Logoth when they prayed to Ba'alzamon, they did that because he could actually help if he chose unlike the DO who was locked away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 08:17:46
subject: <b>indeed he is not</b>
body:
ishamael is not moridin but he is osan'gar. in the end of winter's heart you see him thinking that running in the woods is no place for the genius who created the trollocs.<br />and in one of the books a forsaken says that ishamael created the trollocs. and another point is that he played the role of dashiva who was without a doubt mad and he had no problem learning what rand taught him. so that is why moridin is not ishamael.


created: 2001-12-06 04:16:02
subject: <b>Moridin is probably Ishamael</b>
body:
There are several things in the books that indicate that , but the strongest proof is brought by Demandred on WH during their meeting when he thinks: &quot;He(Moridin) often seemed to believe he was[The Great Lord of the Dark] , and the boy's face he wore now had not changed that&quot; and at the end of that chapter Demandred thinks &quot;...Perhaps matters could be arranged so he did not get another body the next time he died.&quot; <br />Therefore , Moridin is probably Ishamael reincarnated.


created: 2002-03-11 20:29:21
subject: <b>No Kidding</b>
body:
If you don't what your talking about lerris, don't talk. It says Aginor created the trollocs. I don't think that Ishy woulda had the know how to make the trollocs. He was a world class philosopher, not a world class geneticist. But I digress to the more important topic at hand as to who Mordin is. Mordin is definately Ishmael reincarnated. Reason #1) The level of his sah or what ever u call it that bounces around in his eyeballs. Reason #2) His extensive knowlege of what went on during the Age of Legends. Even the brown's don't know as much as he knows so that proves that he's aged well, or else he's one of the forsaken that's died. And we know that Asmo ain't coming back... we know that Aginor and Be'lathamel have been reincarnated (see begining of LoC).... rahvin's prob. not coming back, and Sammael is def. not coming back b/c he was nuked by balefire....demandred is still impostering as people, and u prob get the idea by now. There for he is Ishy. Hope that helps!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Slayer of bad posts and stupid theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Deathbone1<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 00:31:34
subject: <b>maybe.........</b>
body:
here's an idea... maybe, just maybe Moridin is.........(drumroll)... Moridin. maybe he is a new guy... perhaps one of the Asha'man who had to be put down due to madness has been reincarnated by the DO and has sided against Rand to get his revenge. just speculation of course, but i don't think that moridin HAS to be anybody but moridin. and until RJ says otherwise that is good enough for me.<br /><br />The Drunken Asha'man<br /><br />Mr_MolsonXXX


created: 2005-02-25 15:34:42
subject: <b>Woolhead</b>
body:
Moridin is Ishamael. Even if he doesn't worry about Rand. The other forsaken brought back are not all EXACTLY like what they were.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mightiest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 06:17:26
subject: <b>both wrong</b>
body:
moridin can channel and is a darkfreand. jain could not channel and is considered a good guy. tam is to old, i mean jain might not even be dead yet (noal).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 09:12:00
subject: <b>Huh!</b>
body:
Perosnally I think the idea that Moridin or Tam al'Thor are Jaim Farstrider is pure arse.  It's Noal!  Noal man!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peter also known as Joseph <br /><br />Hobo Most High of The Order of the Sacred Locomotive<br /><br />Clown of the North  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Servant of the Mighty Bollox of Wickywick  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Land of Prick  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />God I love arsin about!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />  Minister for Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeee</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 14:53:53
subject: <b>Jain</b>
body:
I think we've already met Jain as the old man Mat runs into in Ebu Dar.  Farstrider was involved in the fall of Malkier by bringing a darkfriend to justice (EotW).  At the time he was mentioned as being young.  It sounds like most of his adventures had yet to take place, so he isn't THAT much older thatn Lan, who is about 45ish.  I'm thinking that that puts the old guy Mat meets at the perfect age.  I mean this in the nicest possible way nut if you really think either of your theories is right, you're out of your tree.


created: 2002-06-09 22:54:12
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
I have to agree with the two posts above mine. Jain is Noal. <br />Also... Moridin is Ishamael and Tam is Tam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love animated smilies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 20:26:19
subject: <b>Noal is Jain?</b>
body:
MAYBE! I am not convinced of that.<br /><br />I was always thinking of Jain as an immortal being from the Age of Legends. Perhaps he still is?<br /><br />Moridin is a re-Ish<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am still wondering about the Flame and the Void and Tam's Heron Blade.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-06-27 13:25:33
subject: <b>The Guide...</b>
body:
..agrees. Remember the idea of a 46 odd years , 46 out theory. The guy who concieved it abandoned it later. That was probably beacuse Ishy heard about him and decided to be more subtle from then on.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 20:37:01
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
Thank you for pointing out the obvious to the stupid and ignorant. Its a relief to finally make people realize that they are wrong and should hang their heads in shame b/c of thier ignorance, but I digress....again, thakn you for enlightening the stupid<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 10:53:43
subject: <b>obvious</b>
body:
Anyone who claims Moridin isn't Ishmael is out of their mind.  It's a perfect example of being making things more complicated than they are.  <br /><br />I thought this was one of the most obvious things in the whole series.


created: 2003-03-22 10:41:28
subject: <b>me like</b>
body:
i like the thing about the &quot;invoulantary rings&quot;. Never thought about it before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 13:50:35
subject: <b>a few points</b>
body:
a: the shara game. the source of the name was lost in aol, thus from an erlier age. if moridin is the shadow dragon he could not be ltt so he is one before him. that man must know where the name shara came from. moridin does not.<br /><br />b: there is only one dragon, reborn again and again, ton alot of them!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 14:04:54
subject: <b>Mostly, I agree</b>
body:
Well, I had never thought of it that way! It does, however, make sense. Except I thought that when Rand's balefire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> touched the other guy's, it made Rand all dizzy and stuff just because their balefires cancelled each other's out to before they had even channeled the flows to weave balefire. Thus it totally screwed up Rand's perception of how he channels.<br />I do agree that Moridin could be a past Lews Therin/Rand al'Thor that turned to the shadow.


created: 2001-10-11 14:48:04
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
hmm..i have a few problems with yer theory, ehhee.  first is the fact that time would have been destroyed if the DO(Dark One) ever got free, and if the Dragon turned to the shadow, then the DO would certainly get free.  the second is that one of the forsaken (demandred, i think, in WH, when the living forsaken were having a meeting) says that he wished that the DO had left Moridin dead.  me tinks dat ishamael is Moridin, but i dunna think that there was anything disputing the arguement that he is the shadows dragon tho..if the creator has one, why cant the DO?


created: 2001-10-16 08:11:38
subject: <b>Pure Crap</b>
body:
This theory is impossible, because if there was a Dragon that turned to the dark one, the shadow would fall over the pattern and the DO would reign supreme. If that were true,  Rand would never have existed, because the battle was already done. There is not a snowballs chance in hell for this theory.


created: 2002-02-12 10:59:11
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
Jeez. I had never considered that, but it's one heck of a theroy. I have always been interested in Dragons from before Lews Therin. Ishamael claimed that the Dragon would fight from the beginning of time to the end of time. So if Moridin is really a Dragon from the past that went to the shadow, that wouldn't work. You see from what I can tell, one's soul is the same. So this Dragon would have to have the same Soul as Lews Therin and Rand, and therefore if he never died, then Rand and Lews Therin are just extensions of his Soul. I don't know if that would work. However, consider perhaps the Creator does not have the same Soul be the Dragon every age. It may be that the &quot;CHOSEN ONE&quot; is a soul that he selects to be the Dragon then he takes no part in affairs and leaves it to that Dragon to stop the Dark One in the world. THat would make your theory work pretty well, but then again, if the Dragon at some point bent knee to the Dark One, that means the Dark One was probably free, and if he was then what was the war that put him back in the Prison before the Age of Legends? And the idea that Moridin is the Dragon from Ages ago that was trapped in time, the Dark One could not have opened it since he tells Demandred that he can't go past the barrier of time, meaning he wouldn't be able to pull a future Dark Dragon  or a past one and bring them to Rand's time. I really believe Moridin is either Ishamael or perhaps an unheard of Dreadlord.<br /><br />The Dragon forever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 11:54:17
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
I like this theory... I disagree completly... but I think it may have some marrit, we know from (Ishy?) that the dragon has turned to the shadow only to be defeated by other champions of the light (mabey even Ishy himself at some point) I think it is important to note that The Fisher is DEFFINATLY a symbol for Rand, and that the Fisher goes between both sides, I REALLY like this theory, I just dont think it's right, to my mind Moridin must be Ishy, just like Taim must be Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asmodean<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-25 12:05:31
subject: <b>One big problem</b>
body:
How can the same soul be alive twice at the same time?<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 13:34:52
subject: <b>Nope...</b>
body:
First of all, Ishy is the champion of the Dark, just as the Dragon is the Champion of the Light. So ISHY must fight LEWS and nobody else. And Ishy is to be made Naeblis, not somebody else. And The Dragon never turned to the Shadow, we know that. *almost quotes *I'll never serve you. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that *end almost quote*<br /><br />And besides, the former Dragon is in Rand's head, not Moridin's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 17:12:36
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
I don't like this Theory... while I haven't made up my mind yet exactly who Moridin is I think that your assumptions are wrong.  Min's veiwing of Rand and another man touching and then becoming one - I believe Lews Therin is the other man and Them becoming one means that he ceases to be a separate entity in Rand's mind, no longer voicing his thoughs or trying to seize saidin, instead they are now of one mind working towards one purpose.  As to the person who gives rand a hand up in Shadar Logoth I think it was Moridin because he channeled the True Power where the Forsaken only channel the true power as a last resort.  I do like the theory that the two streams of balefire touching caused them to not have been channeled in the first place, accounting for Rand's dizzyness.


created: 2003-04-28 11:59:36
subject: <b>All the evidence</b>
body:
That I have seen so far definitely points to Moridin being the new incarnation of Ishamael.  That said I must say that even if I find the above theory to have some flaws in it and I don't think it really holds water....it IS a cool idea.<br /><br />One thing against it that people have mentioned is the fact that 2 incarnations of the &quot;same soul&quot; couldn't exist at the same time.  While they may inhabit the same body for the time being I hold out the fact of Rand and Lews therin both existing at the same time.  They have repeatedly shown themselves to be seperate entities.  This doesn't even take into account the third person that Rand has just recently started seeing....it is starting to get crowded up there in his head ;o<br /><br />The other major thing that people have to say in negating this theory is that Moridin has made several comments that tend to lead us to believe he is Ishamael.  Comments that link him to the AoL and seem to indicate that not only is he acting as Naeblis now but has in fact held that position for a very long time.  In answer to that I offer this tidbit of information.  Throughout the entire series it has been evident that even moreso that wanting rand dead the dark one would like to turn him to the shadow....the forsaken know this and also seem under the impression that if he is turned he would be placed above them ie:named naeblis.  Where would they get this idea unless it had happened before and either they were present to witness it or had seen some fragments of legend or history that hinted at it?  Ishamael as the Shadow version of the Dragon Reborn isn't really all that far fetched.  As has been pointed out through the prophecies this battle between the light and the shadow has been going on for a very long time....the cycle keeps going around and in many of those ages past the dragon has been turned.  It is only now that we have come to what seems to be the true and final &quot;last battle&quot;.  Whether that is a fact and the outcome of this battle truly is the end or if it is just the &quot;last battle&quot; of this age is unclear though.<br /><br />Interesting theories to ponder no matter what the actual truth may be.  The only things pertaining to this that I truly believe for the moment is that #1, Ishamael is in fact now reincarnated as Moridin. And #2 Moridin is now and possibly was even as Ishamael, Naeblis, despite what promises the Dark One may have made to the other forsaken to foment discord and competition.  And finally #3, We have seen Moridin/Ishamael as only Moridin/Ishamael.  Moridin has been seen in the series only as himself(including the watcher).  He is not Taim or any other person although he very may well have a number of flunkies working for him....I can't say with any real authority what contacts he has other than the readily stated ones that we all know of.  He seems more inclined atm to be collecting the other forsaken under him and exerting his influence in that way than to be dealing with &quot;mere mortals&quot;.  It seems as if the Dark Ones time for deception among his followers has come to an end as he has stopped letting any of the others believe they might end up with the ultimate power of Naeblis.  He has recently begun putting all of them in their place both by allowing Moridin to openly be seen as Naeblis and hold the souls of some of the chosen who really screwed up and by allowing such free reign to Shadar Haran.  On the surface it would seem that the attempts to turn Rand to the shadow are at an end and the Dark One is marshalling his forces for an all out war.  Ending the discord between his followers and letting them all know their place seems to be the first step to that end.  We can't forget, however, that Annath(Semirhage) still has access to that male adam though.  This was so casually mentioned that I actually didn't even remember it after my first reading.  Casually mentioned or not though...it will almost certainly come back in a big way somewhere down the road.<br /><br />Much to ponder =)  I have avoided boards like these for a long time....preferring to read and consider possibilities myself.  Now that I have visited I find myself hooked heh.  As much as I have come up with on my own to consider the number of ideas running around these boards dwarfs my own =D


created: 2005-03-24 16:45:30
subject: <b>Not Likely</b>
body:
I think Birgitte is proof enough that Moridin could not be a past Dragon trapped in time. The soul has to be reborn, and Birgitte herself explained that a soul waits in Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod until being reborn, and because she was ripped out, she can not be reborn. So if a shadow dragon had been made immortal and never died, his soul could not be reborn as Rand. Oh, and it is the same person resurrected. The idea that there could be other people who were the &#8216;Dragon&#8217; is foolish. Hawking himself said he recognized Rand as Lews in TGH, so it has to be the same soul. <br /><br />As for Lew ever turning to the shadow, I think that was a lie. After all, if he ever turned once, he would not be a hero, would he, and he would not have went to Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod to await rebirth. And besides, the Dark One owns those who pledge to him, and I think he has proven he can control their soul in death, so if the dragon ever turned, why would the dark one ever let him go?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Health and Happiness are the Blackmail of the Gods</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 10:51:46
subject: <b>I AGREE</b>
body:
I believe Moridin is just Moridin. One reason I believe this is in WH, when Rand was cleansing saidin, Osan'gar (Aginor) said he was afraid of Moridin, and that he had always been afraid of him even before the sealing of the bore. I think he knew Moridin before LTT sealed the bore.Iknow what some of you are thinking, he could be talking about Ishy. I don't think so becouse if Osan'gar was talking about him why not call him Ishamael. Even in his mind thinks of him as Moridin not Ishy.


created: 2001-07-06 03:22:50
subject: <b>Yeah. but..</b>
body:
Yeah, that sounds good.  But he refers to himself as Osan'gar.  Wouldn't he just call himself Aginor since that's who he is?  No, Moridin is most definately Ishy.  There is no doubt.  I have spoken.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 16:53:29
subject: <b>i must agree</b>
body:
there are too many inferances that moridin is ishamael for it to be a red herring. besides, if aginor and balthamel can be reincarnated and they werent fleshed out at all as the last four books have done with the Chosen, then why not ishamael? despite the fact that rand fought him twice, we never really got to see much of his motivation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 12:42:46
subject: <b>A toss up</b>
body:
Robert Jordan makes so many allusions to that fact that Ish is Moridin that I used to think it was a red herring but now I don't think so. He knows too much of the Age of Legends to be a new character and he has been channeling the True Power for a while.I think Robert Jordan is making it so obvious that he wants people to suspect deceit but in fact Moridin is Ishy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 21:38:55
subject: <b>I think Moridin = Ishmael</b>
body:
Lately I have been (re)reading WH, and it seems pretty clear that Moridin is someone the Forsaken all know.  Demandred at one point thinks to himself he would be happy if Moridin died again and no new body could be found for him.  There is also a reference to the fact the Moridin is as insane as he ever was despite his new body.  In EOTW Ishmael is pretty clearly labeled insane, even by the other forsaken.


created: 2008-02-26 02:55:32
subject: <b>Ultimate goals</b>
body:
It seems clear to me that the DO's true aim isn't to remake the world but to destroy the Pattern entirely, since the Pattern itself is somehow his prison.  (The &quot;imprisoned from the moment of creation&quot; bit is true here, at least.)<br /><br />Ishamael was a nihilist even before becoming a Forsaken&#174; and appears to be the only Forsaken who serves the DO's ends willingly instead of being a dupe.  The DO doesn't name Ishamael(=Moridin) Nae'blis because he made a promise--he does it because only Ishamael can be &quot;trusted&quot; to pursue the same goals.


created: 2001-06-20 21:22:59
subject: <b>Moridon is bound</b>
body:
I belive it is in CoS after Mogheadien leaves Moridon that Moridon contimplates leaving the slopes of Shayol Ghul but for some reason cannot. I believe it is because he is bound there, to his prison by the remaining seals, thus supporting the theory that he is the Dark One, after all his name does mean &quot;Death&quot;. Also, it seems Shaidar Harin bends a knee to him, which does not occur with any forsaken.


created: 2001-06-27 14:46:58
subject: <b>Dude... Ishamael is Moridin</b>
body:
Jordan refers to this as an 'open secret' in at least one interview I've read.  Also, not only does the whole world believe that the Creator sealed the DO away at the beginning of the world, but that's how Jordan talks any time he answers a question about it.  It's a pretty cool idea, but it's chances of being true are close to zero.


created: 2001-07-19 23:58:29
subject: <b>last battle</b>
body:
isnt there suppossed to be a battle at the end of every age? isnt it more liely that the Dark One is dark for a reaons, and therefore is inferiour to the creator and as emotons similar to a person, and has a champion such as ishy do the diry stuff?


created: 2002-03-21 12:04:54
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
First off, I believe Moridin is Ishy, But the Idea of the dark one being a man (or some other living thing)and gaining power is most novel idea I have heard in a LONG time, and I have been reading theory for a VERY LONG time, I dont know if it's true, but it has given me something to think about... This is a great theory, if I were you i'd post it on every other WoT site you know of (if you havent already) If you have any other theorys any where near this caliber, please post them (if you havent already)<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asmodean<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-04 14:50:00
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Interesting reading, but 90% of it is not based on anything RJ has written or said, it's just stuff you've made up yourself. Furthermore, as said, the evidence that Moridin is Ishy really is quite overwhelming.<br /><br />However, maybe you should start writing fantasy novels, with imagination like that. :&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The wireless telegraph is not difficult to understand. The ordinary telegraph is like a very long cat. You pull the tail in New York, and it meows in Los Angeles. The wireless is the same, only without the cat.&quot;<br />  -- Albert Einstein</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 13:55:38
subject: <b>I would like to believe, but...</b>
body:
Well thought out and quite believable, but there is something that I thought of when I was reading this that makes me think it can't be true.  In TDR, right after Rand kills Ba'alzamon Moiraine yells at mat for assuming he's the Dark One.  Consider this quote:<br />    &quot;You say 'the body,'&quot; Moiraine said with a twist to her mouth.  &quot;A man's body.  Not the Dark One, Mat.&quot;(TDR,672)<br /><br />And later on the same page:<br />    &quot;I can be sure for the simplest of reasons, Nynaeve,  However fast decay took it, that was a man's body.  Can you believe that if the Dark One were killed he would leave a human body?  The man Rand killed was a man...&quot;<br /><br />This disproves that the Dark One was just an ordinary man who stumbled on great power.


created: 2002-09-12 16:57:24
subject: <b>re: I would like to believe but...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>And later on the same page:<br />&quot;I can be sure for the simplest of reasons, Nynaeve, However fast decay took it, that was a man's body. Can you believe that if the Dark One were killed he would leave a human body? The man Rand killed was a man...&quot;<br /><br />This disproves that the Dark One was just an ordinary man who stumbled on great power. </b></font><br /><br />yeah...and gholams don't exist because Aes Sedai have no clue what they are either <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />interesting theory, if unlikely.


created: 2003-01-20 15:55:03
subject: <b>Also explains</b>
body:
how Rand is supposed to kill the DO. He can't be infinitely powerful, else the Choedan Kal+Callandor+every damn channeler on the planet=squat compared to that.


created: 2004-08-17 14:47:03
subject: <b>Moridin is not the Dark One, probably Ishmael</b>
body:
What about on page 359 where it says;<br /><br />&quot;...Moridin announced, striding in as though he were the Great Lord of the Dark himself.  He had often seemed to believe he was, and the boy's face had not changed that.<br /><br />That implies that the speaker (Demandred) knew Moridin before he was Moridin, back when he was Ishamael.


created: 2005-03-24 17:04:01
subject: <b>No Way</b>
body:
It sounds good, but there was no Nae&#8217;blis in the war of power. There was going to be one, but the war ended before that happened. Now, with three of the seals still intact the Dark One is able to emerge in a human form and names himself Nae&#8217;blis. He was more free in the Age of Legend, why would he not name himself then? And what is with the cour&#8217;souvra? Why would the dark one need a mind trap to control his forsaken. I think it is obvious he does not. No, the Dark One could not be Moridin. He is too weak.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Health and Happiness are the Blackmail of the Gods</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 22:17:30
subject: <b>Balthamel was Eval</b>
body:
Eval Ramman. Eval was a historian. He was not Beidoman.<br /><br />Moridin is a re-Ish<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-04-28 12:34:31
subject: <b>Again</b>
body:
We are falling into the trap of thinking that all of the Forsaken and/or other shadow characters have to BE someone other than what they seem.  In my opinion the evidence that Moridin is in fact Ishamael reincarnated is simply too strong to refute.<br /><br />Shadar Haran on the other hand doesn't appear to be anyone other than what he has been said to be....a Myrdraal with extra powers and stature granted to him by the Dark One.  He doesn't need to be a reincarnation of anyone else to be exactly what he has been said to be...The hand of the dark.  I think he fits in well with where the plans of the shadow have seemed to be going in recent books.  No more promises to other chosen...Moridin is now openly named Naeblis and has been given control of the other chosen...some more than others by means of the cour souvra(sp).  Seemingly the attempts at turning rand have been given up and the forces of the shadow are marshalling themselves for the upcoming war...this means establishing who is in control and stamping out the squabbling amongst themselves.  The Dark One accomplishes this through fear and subjugation.  A Myrdraal, whatever his apparent stature and powers, giving orders to the chosen would have been unthinkable once...as noted by all of their reactions to him.  What better way to let them all know that their failures have been noted and the master is displeased than by speaking to them through a creature that should have been beneath them.  Shaidar Haran isn't some secret identity of an already once slain forsaken...he is truly the hand of...and the voice of...the shadow.  The weakening seals have apparently given the Dark One enough ability to touch the world that he can affect the world now in more ways than he could before...including speaking through Shaidar Haran.


created: 2004-02-27 22:14:01
subject: <b>Lanfear = Cyndane</b>
body:
I don't remember where exactly, and I don't have my books with me right now, but when Rand and Nynaeve are workign to cleanse the source, and there's all the fighting going on, there's a POV from Cyndane that makes it readilly apparent that she is Lanfear reborn.


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sammael is dead</b>
body:
Greetings, <p>I just would like to clarify the question weather Sammeal is dead or not.</p><p>He is really really dead!</p><p>In a chat with Mr. Jordan himself this question came up and take a look at his answer...</p><p>Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct? </p><p>Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast! </p><p>and don´t take my word for it... take a looksie here:</p><p>http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html</p><p>Sincerly,<br />Marcus</p>


created: 2001-05-31 08:48:24
subject: <b>Okay, we get it already....</b>
body:
You don't need to reply to EVERY single theory.  Just one would be suitable.  Alos, just so you should know, these theories were written here a LONG time ago.  Ignore the date submitted on them.  This is way before winter's heart even had a title.  But you are correct, Sammael is dead.<br /><br />Indeed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 23:50:23
subject: <b>Sammael is alive and well (sorry that was unintentional).</b>
body:
I believe that Sammael is alive for one very simple reason: <br /><br />WE DID NOT SEE HIM DIE!!!<br /><br />Until RJ describes his death (especially by balefire) we have to assume that he is still alive and well.<br /><br />On top of that there is the fact that whoever sicced Luc onto Rand and Min in Far Madding did not <br />know of the Chodan Kal, ruling out the other Forsaken, and as Luc was sure that it was one of the<br />Forsaken who contacted him, I believe that it was Sammael.<br /><br /><br />Thats it.


created: 2001-07-24 12:37:07
subject: <b>He IS dead</b>
body:
Like the above post said, he is dead.<br />Jordan has confirmed it in an interview;<br /><br />Q: &quot;Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?&quot; <br />A: &quot;Sammael? [pronounce something like Sammy-el] Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.&quot;<br /><br />Well thats it, and I&#180;m happy about it.<br /><br />Jeromi


created: 2001-08-12 21:30:44
subject: <b>So?</b>
body:
So RJ says that Sammael is dead, so? What does that prove? If you recall, Ishamael, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel are all dead as well. They can be ressureced. RJ does not say that Sammael was balefired, just that hes dead. So the DO can ressurect him to irritate Rand some more.


created: 2001-08-18 12:09:23
subject: <b>I disagree completely with that one!</b>
body:
As everyone has been pointing out, RJ has confirmed that Sammy is dead, you can read the interview in this sites articles section thing. I agree with you that Sammy will probably come back, but it won't be as Sammy. He will probably get a new body like Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, and of course, Ishy.


created: 2001-12-08 17:24:53
subject: <b>Hello? Hello?</b>
body:
Two posts above this one is Robert Jordan saying that Sammael will not be resurrected. SO unless you're saying &quot;Robert Jordan? What the hell does HE know about WoT?!&quot; then this point is as dead as Sammael. SAMMAEL IS DEAD AND WILL NOT BE COMING BACK.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 13:18:50
subject: <b>Hate to burst your bubble</b>
body:
Check out<br /><br />http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/<br /><br /><br /><br />Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?<br /><br />Robert Jordan: &quot;Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!&quot;<br />I think he summed it up nicely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 07:26:34
subject: <b>Sammael</b>
body:
Well I guess he did die easy. Rand and other good guys always manage to avoid Mashadar. But Sammael might be distracted, I don't know how concentrated he was in detecting the channeling in the city. And I don't remember how that fade was killed by Mashadar in the first book, but could Sammael just vanish ? does  Mashadar swallow that fast ?


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mashadar, Sammael, and the True Power</b>
body:
If you carefully read the last chapter of CoS, you will see that Rand did not actually use Balefire directly on Sammael.  He, actually, used Balefire on Liah, the Aiel maiden, to put he out of her misery when Mashadar touched her.  He then swept the Balefire towards the square, but stopped short of it, as Sammael was no longer there.  Just because it is impossible to seize the One Power within half a heartbeat doesn't necessairly mean the True Power cannot be seized as so.  Also, we must not forget that just because Sammael has never been said to use the True Power doesn't mean he can't -- as one of the Forsaken, he is a key player for the Dark.  Also, Rand managed to see Liah get consumed by Mashadar, and it wasn't exactly instant, until he hit her with Balefire.  Wouldn't that entail Rand to be able to see Sammael get consumed by it, even if only for a moment, if he only took his eyes off the square for a heartbeat???  We all know from past events in the story to not assume anyone is dead without seeing a corpse.<p>Well, even if Sammael was consumed by Mashadar, I would consider him as good as Balefired, although his horrible deeds might not be undone.  The evil of Shadar Logoth has absolutely nothing do with the True Power and the Dark One, and in fact, I think the evil of Shadar Logoth might actually be strong enough to rival the True Power, as even agents for the Dark fear it.  That would make it really difficult to bring back Sammael via the True Power.  However, the potential benefits to Padan Fain of this event are enough for a whole new flurry of speculation....</p>


created: 2002-03-08 11:11:09
subject: <b>Sammy IS dead. Thank You!!!</b>
body:
Jordan said conclusivley that Sammael is, in fact, dead. As stated above, &quot;Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!&quot; Unless someone wants to dispute what Jordan himself said clearly, he's dead.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 14:18:41
subject: <b>Sammy isnt dead!</b>
body:
He isn't necessarily dead.  He could very well be alive if the form of a slightly burnt piece of bread, with butter, and some of that nice cherry jelly like grandma used to make, before I hit her cherry tree with a truck.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duriora Virtus<br /><br />If anyone can translate that into English, e-mail me, please.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 21:59:27
subject: <b>the rule</b>
body:
what is the first rule of fantasy writing? hes not dead if you didnt see him die.  i dont know about him using liah, but i do think he escaped somehow.


created: 2002-04-15 16:55:29
subject: <b>Doesnt matter if he is dead or not</b>
body:
Since balefire didnt kill him you can guarantee him to be resurrected in a new body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 23:20:44
subject: <b>We hope he's lurking...</b>
body:
Sammael is my favorite Forsaken, and I refuse to believe that he is ... now I have a good reason to believe so, beyond my own stupid stubborness! <br /><br />And I really like the word lurking...it's almost as good as skulking...<br /><br />-Becca<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*********************************************<br />http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/library/b/e/beccalynn/beccalynn.html <br /><br />'I like hippy chicks, he said, they're not so damned dumb. They don't sing like Ethel Merman, they don't imitate nuns. They comb their ha</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 15:38:10
subject: <b>Er...</b>
body:
I have to agree with marcus...  RJ says he's toast, he's toast.  I doubt RJ will go back on his word, and I'm pretty sure the DO didn't like him enough to give him a new body anyways.


created: 2003-02-17 13:09:39
subject: <b>what did jordan say?</b>
body:
i feel like jordan has specifically said at some point in one of the q &amp; a sessions that sammael is dead...toast, if i recall...other than that, i suppose he could come back, obviously


created: 2003-04-24 14:47:18
subject: <b>The only one</b>
body:
That is truly dead for absolute sure is Rhavin.  As the Dark One said...even I cannot save him from balefire.  So far pretty much everyone else that we either suspected of dying or knew for damn sure did die seems to come back.<br /><br />Ishamael---Moridin<br />Aginor---Osangar/Dashiva<br />Lanfear---Cyndane<br />Balthamel---Arangar<br /><br />and so on and so forth (although there is the slight possibility I mixed up the arangar/osangar names...dont feel like going to look it up ;o)<br /><br />The pattern so far established is that death by any means other than balefire can be and will be fixed at least among the forsaken.  I for one will not be at all surprised when Sammael pops back up....whether he actually died in Shadar Logoth or not (I believe he did btw)  He may very well add his soul to those worn around Moridins neck...but he will surface again.<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-02 17:24:01
subject: <b>Not so sure</b>
body:
First, I'm a firm believer that if you don't see them die, they ain't dead. The description of my favorite Forsakens death is a little vague if you ask me.<br /><br />Second, in regards to the &quot;Robert said He was dead&quot; response, couldn't Mr Jordan be stretching the truth to not ruin some great surprise down the road? Just a thought<br />


created: 2001-10-03 14:39:31
subject: <b>RJ rarely...</b>
body:
RJ is more interested in the truth than telling 'fibs.'  Many of his writings and responces seem to be very similar to his Aes Sedai... the truth he tells isnt always the truth you hear.  The point being, its still usually the truth.  Anything less would be unprofessional.  So if he says sammy is dead, I'll step up and believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mikel Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Bonded to Aida Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 23:49:29
subject: <b>what jordan didn't say....</b>
body:
is that maybe sammael just got resurrected and given a new name..... or maybe a fain like thing will bring him back..... shadar logoth and the DO have a way of making death un-permanent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 14:15:23
subject: <b>If the DO were bringing Sammy back...</b>
body:
...RJ's answer would not be &quot;Sammael is toast!&quot;<br /><br />It would be &quot;RAFO!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-19 23:54:48
subject: <b>close but not quite</b>
body:
I agree with Mr Jordan, Sammael is dead. As to how he died exactly, i think you are close, but not quite on target. Sammael died because of Baelfire and Mashadar, and also Leah (sp?) Ok, lets look at this step by step: Sammael is down in the square, sitting quietly, moving, but not much. Rand is up above, is not moving at all, practically. Leah, for some unknown reason, is running around Shadar Logath. I think that Mashadar is somewhat attracted to movement (And possibly things of the dark, since it was created from hatred of the dark, and is also the antimatter to the darks matter, as seen in the removal of the taint.) Since Leah was moving the most, it was most attracted to her, which explains why it engulfed her. Rand balefires Leah, erasing her for however many seconds. In those seconds, Mashadar is no longer attracted to Leah, so it goes after something else, namely Sammael. That explains why Mashadar appeared so suddenly after Leah was balefired (It appeared for the most part sluggish up until then) and also why Rand didn't hear a scream; Sammael was dead a few seconds earlier. Also, i didn't come up with this theory, someone else did, so i don't expect credit for it.


created: 2001-12-06 21:01:48
subject: <b>funny that you agree with mr jordan...</b>
body:
...since he is the one writing the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proprium est pro insectis<br /><br />Fluffy says you walk the plank.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 00:56:18
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
with the last post.<br />RJ said he is dead, stop debating this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love animated smilies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 01:11:32
subject: <b>Sammael is definately still alive!</b>
body:
If you notice Robert Jordan gave a very specific clue as to what happened to Sammael.  He used the true power to turn himself into a piece of toast!  He was trapped with Rand in front of him and Mashadar behind and so the only logical thing to do would be to turn himself into a piece of toast and wait until rand left to turn back.  He then simply travelled away.  This has the added bonus of toast being too close to the ground to be touched by that nasty fog.


created: 2002-05-12 12:45:40
subject: <b>One problem with your theory</b>
body:
Personaly I like your theory, but I have one problem with it. Fain only survived Mashadar because he was so deep in the shadow. He sold his soul years ago, and was horribly evil before Shadar Logoth. He was practicaly souless and retained enough sould to support mordeth<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 10:03:18
subject: <b>Sammael is gone, face it.</b>
body:
As the reply to the start of this thread states. Robert Jordan himself said that Sammael is dead. If people aren't going to believe RJ himself who will they believe?<br /><br />There is more chance of Rand sleeping with Moiraine than Sammael coming back.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Laughs at the Sammael is alive believers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-15 20:09:04
subject: <b>If sammael became a victim of shadar logoth.....</b>
body:
If sammael became a victim of shadar logoth such as mordeth or Fain then he will be back and evil. And if he became a new Mordeth type creature then we now that two of the forsaken were inside shadar logoth right? (at the end of winter's heart). And more over moghedien was left in qutie a predicament..... oh the possibilities......


created: 2003-02-05 04:53:28
subject: <b>Sammael lives.. inded</b>
body:
Toast can meen many thing, like that Sammael has gotten his soul burned. However, if sammeal is infact dead he will probably be reborne by the dark one and make and very impresiv comeback..


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sammael is dead!</b>
body:
Sammael is really and truly dead,<p><br />Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct? </p><p><br />Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast! </p><p><br />if you dont beleive me go here and check it out your self,</p><p>http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html</p><p>Sorry to spoil your fun but i´m truly tired of this gibbering about Sammael</p><p>/Marcus</p>


created: 2001-11-19 10:59:57
subject: <b>Dead</b>
body:
Sammy is dead PERIOD!!!!!!!!!! he may be reborn but he won't be sammy same as Moridid is not Ishy anymore<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> I am SSJ Jozan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> swords are awesome <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of good books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Lini is the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Cookies and cartoons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Masema <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 19:48:32
subject: <b>Maybe but</b>
body:
If Sammael used the True Power to get out of Shadar Logoth, wouldn't Moridin have known?  This is only assuming it can be sensed by other TP users.  Or that the DO told him since he is Nae'blis now.<br /><br />I could be wrong.<br /><br />I agree with the rest of your theory, but you said Moridin believes he is dead (I don't remember Moridin saying/thinking this, but it's been awhile since I've read the books), and if any of the above is true then Moridin really does know Sam's fate.  <br /><br />Personally I don't think Sammy is dead.  Like you said, it's way to easy...and that RJ comment made me think of how reminescent it was of his Asmodeans death &quot;Asmodean is roadkill!&quot;.  Could he have gotten the two confused?  He's done it with Saidar/Saidin in interviews before.<br /><br />First post here, so be easy!


created: 2003-03-25 10:29:30
subject: <b>The True Power is saves for the Nae'blis</b>
body:
Your theory is good, I like it, but i jave one problem with it. you said that Sammael knew that there was a Nae'blis - even if he didn't knew who it was. the True Power is saved for the Nae'blis - I remember reading it somewhere - so Sammael mustn't use it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 06:02:49
subject: <b>Sammael is dead!</b>
body:
If you read one of the interviews posted under Articles you will see that Robert Jordan sais that Sammael is Dead, very dead, and is not comming back. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />This is what he said:<br /><br />Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast! <br /><br /><br />Love Arwen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-09-13 06:12:02
subject: <b>Who the hell is the slayer?</b>
body:
I know he is supposed to be connected somehow to rands father, and somehow to I think it was Lans brother, but I can't see somehow.<br />Could anyone please help me. <br />And I have some trouble understanding the family relations in Rands family, his mother was something high up in the system in Andor, and she is the mother of......Galad??? Is Rand and Elayne brother and sister, yack!????!!!<br />And she went to the waste and got pregnant with an aiel man, who runned away and got connected whit the slayer somehowe. I'm confused, yes.<br />Please help!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-18 08:33:11
subject: <b>Interesting thought</b>
body:
That idea certainly never struck me before. Very interesting. Not correct, though, as Sammael, at least currently is toast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-16 01:21:56
subject: <b>i dont think so</b>
body:
The weave for a gateway is different than the weave to the World of Dreams.  Rand would hav known the difference since he has used both.  I think that Sammael is really dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 14:31:52
subject: <b>what the junk?</b>
body:
Are you nuts? I mean don't you think rand would know he was walking into TAR? and he made his own weave to get there so he would not come out were sam was. as far as L.T.T. being there, that's just, well dumb cause it was mordin using the true power which is why it jolted. plus don't you think mordin would rather rand went fight sammy boy? as far a leih (sorry) but she is aiel. why she didn't leave I think is simple. She was poisoned like mat. she said the city was hers so she insane. all in all your thoery leaves much to be desired.


created: 2006-04-23 13:11:08
subject: <b>RE:Who the hell is the slayer?</b>
body:
Tgraine, Rand`s mother was queen of Andor. She married Taringil Damodred and Birthed Galad. She ran  off to the waste when Gitara Moroso, Keeper of the Chronicals had a fortelling that she must become a Maiden of the Spear. When she disappeared her brother Luc fled to the blight out of devestation at the loss of his sister.<br /><br />Lan`s aunt was a jealous woman who wanted her husband, Lan`s uncle to become king. She betrayed Malkier to the shadow, and fled with her young son Isam into the blight, never to be heard from again. <br /><br />Slayer is a combination of Luc and Isam, created by ancient evil forces beyond our imagination.<br /><br />Rand is Galad`s half brother, on his mother`s side. Taringail married Morgase, and birthed Elayne and Gawyn. Galad is THEIR half brother on their father`s side. They are related to Rand, but so distantly on their mothers` sides (their mother`s cousins were cousins with somebody else`s cousin, etc.) that the blood relation is too thin to matter genetically, or socially.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 21:56:37
subject: <b>The comment above seem to be...</b>
body:
pretty conclusive evidence that Sammael is dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> ..Graendal, she had many shades as a jegal had scales, slipping from one to another like lightning..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Proud Founder of &quot;The Chosen&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Everyone needs their Edgucation! A.24-M.24<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 05:39:02
subject: <b>well, the date it was listed as given in it</b>
body:
is misleading, that was date the theory post was given overhaul, I did in fact post the theory some time in 99, before evidenceto the contrary of my theory popped up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 07:14:17
subject: <b>Taim just ISN'T</b>
body:
Even before WH, there is compelling evidence againts Taim being Demandred. In your theory, you mentioned Demandred visit the DO and asks if he have done well. At that time, Taim is with Rand in Dumai's Wells and can't Travel because of the unfamilliar terrain (How did they came there in the first place?). Anyway, even if Taim knows how to create a gateway in that place, he couldn't possibly have done so without Rand and the ashaman knowing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 21:40:30
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
i have learned a few rules in fiction books, one of which is this:  if all the evidence points to somebody, it isnt them.  think on that for a while


created: 2001-11-12 17:56:07
subject: <b>He could be</b>
body:
Something I've learned about fiction books, especially the Wheel of Time, is that time does not flow smoothly throughout the books. The ending of Lord of Chaos could have taken place at anytime after Dumai's Well.<br /><br />Also, Taim has been described as holding nearly as much of the One Power as Rand. Every other male channeler we've seen that can hold nearly as much as Rand has been a Forsaken in disguise (Dashiva=Osan'gar).<br /><br />If you take into account that Taim probably cannot remember every single face and name he's seen and heard since birth, then there is a possibility that Taim=Demandred.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-09 09:07:18
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but I've gotta disprove your theory.  In WH, Demandred is roaming around when he see's a &quot;grizzled old man&quot; walking off some distance in the forest.  We all know this has to be Flinn because of all the people he's with and what he looks like.  If Demandred were Taim, then he would have known who he was.  I think that Demandred might be somebody else in the Black Tower though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 21:52:07
subject: <b>That leaves one question..</b>
body:
Who is Mazrim Taim? I have the books many times, and have always come to the conlcusion that most<br />of Taim's actions are based on CYA- Cover Your Ass. He had two choices, follow Rand, or be killed by<br />him. However, I believe that the Ashaman's arrogance toward Rand is being inbred in them during their<br />lessons. Taim himself shows Rand little to no respect, so why would he teach the &quot;Weapons&quot; to worship<br />what he himself hates?<br />    Darkfriend? Maybe. Coward? Very possible. Forsaken? No.  Not a chance. <br />   Come on RJ, let the secret out soon, lol.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Carai an Caldazar!<br />         The Wolf</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 17:50:16
subject: <b>Wotmania...not quite</b>
body:
IT is my understanding that in order to see the black cord(DO attachment beacuse of their oath) the person has to channeling.  He saw Ishmael's in TEoTW, and he saw Asmodeon's at Rhuidean.  It has something to do with the DO's protection from the Madness.  Further, when Rand first met Taim, he asked him to hold as much of saidan as he could.  Rand did not see it then.  He even held saidan himself, if that is necessary.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 19:40:36
subject: <b>Taim not forsaken</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart there is a part in which Taim says to kill Rand, then Demandred says to kill Rand, then Moridin says to kill Rand.  Belal, Rahvin, Sammael, and Asmodean are gone for good.  Aginor and Bethmael (sp?) are reincarnated as Osan'gar and Aran'gar, Ishmael is Moridin and Demandred is still alive.  All of the women Forsaken are accounted for as well with Lanfear as Cyndane (or is she?).  This means that Taim cannot be one of the male forsaken brought back ( Hopefully )


created: 2002-09-24 22:49:27
subject: <b>A new Forsaken?</b>
body:
Perhaps Taim is not a Darkfriend, but will go over to the shadow out of jealousy and hate.  Such as Sammael and Belal did of Lews Therin in the AoL.  And thus become a new forsaken.  Hmmm... makes you wonder who else might go that way???<br /><br />Cassandra <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />Tallanvor is my hero!<br />


created: 2003-04-14 09:30:24
subject: <b>Dashiva Corlan</b>
body:
Osan'gar aggreated as Corlan Dashiva for almost three books, placed among the Asha'man and Randy never saw any black cords with him... this theory also proves that Taim can be a CH in hiding, but since the Asha'man already have one there, wouldn't it be unnecesary?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There was ultimate peace in the world.<br />Then the Creator gave us clubs.<br />...Well, He gave us wood, but we all know what he meant!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 08:16:19
subject: <b>Why Taim is probably NOT Demandred</b>
body:
There is really one main reason that Demandred is probably not disguised as Taim,<br />and that is the fact that Osan'Gar was disguised as Dashiva. As far as using Saidin,<br />all Demandred would have to do is invert the weaves and no one, including Rand, would be <br />able to sense the weave. However I do not believe that Demandred would hide where one of<br />the other Chosen, albeit a reincarnated one, would hide.  I believe Taim is probably either a<br />darkfriend or perhaps his madness has manifested itself as super meglomania. <br /><br />Gnarzz


created: 2003-02-05 11:00:21
subject: <b>Bashere didn't recognize him...</b>
body:
When Taim first showed up to claim the amnesty he made some comment about shaving his mustache/beard, because Bashere did not appear to recognize him.  On the other hand, he does make comments about a battle he almost won against Bashere.  He could be a Forsaken that captured Taim and questioned him, or he could just be Taim... RAFO?


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why this doesnt quite work</b>
body:
Yeah thats all great, but remember when Rand first meets Taim he says that Taim should look out for students who learn too quicly because they might be one of the Forsaken. This is the main reason Taim would not want to go through with the plan said above, if he did he would surely get caught and killed by Rand.


created: 2001-06-23 22:20:52
subject: <b>Taim is the next Demandred</b>
body:
I don't think Taim is Demandred or a darkfriend, yet.  I think he will turn to the shadow for the same reason Demandred and Sammael did, jealousy.  He was a false Dragon with armies of his own before Rand, now he is second banana. Second in station, second in power, etc.  His jealousy will cause him to turn to the Shadow, just like Demandred and Sammael, and he will be one of the new Dreadlords, or perhaps evev Chosen.


created: 2001-08-26 23:48:08
subject: <b>but how much do we really know</b>
body:
we do not know what mazrim taim looked like before he showed up at the palace to meet rand.  wouldnt it be rather easy to dispose of the real taim and then pretend youre him, whos going to know, with a little inverted disguise, no problems<br /><br />he could have been demandred all along, iirc, the black ajah freed him before he got to the tower


created: 2001-09-04 02:43:51
subject: <b>I Like It, But...</b>
body:
Most Taimandred theories don't argue that Demandred has ALWAYS been posing as Mazrim Taim. Most seem to think that the real Taim was disposed of after escaping (probably with help) from the Aes Sedai, and Demandred took his place, so Demandred would not have been posing as Taim for all of the last 20-odd years, but only since a few months before he showed up in Caemlyn.<br /><br />If Demandred was going to disguise himself as just anyone and rise to power quickly in the Black Tower, it would make Rand suspicious, as one of the above posts said. But Mazrim Taim already had a reputation for being very strong in the power, and one of the main reasons that Rand chose him to lead the tower ws that Taim had managed to hold of the madness of the taint of Saidin for nearly as long as Rand has been alive. If he had just shown up at the farm claiming such a thing, well, Ramd would be mad himself to allow him into any position of power after that.<br /><br />Personally, I don't agree with the Taimandred theories. I agree that Taim is who he says he is, even though he has turned against Rand out of jealousy and/or the influence of one of the Forsaken. I also agree that it would have been extremely risky for Demandred to have taken on the guise of Mazrim Taim to get close to Rand. But I think that the risk would probably have been worth it to him, espescially since when he tells his plan to the other Forsaken in the Prologue, Graendal, I believe, thinks that it will &quot;take a gambler's luck&quot; or some such.<br /><br />I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you about Taim, but I think that this particular piece of evidence is not conclusive either way.


created: 2002-01-04 15:08:31
subject: <b>i dunno</b>
body:
look at the title that Taim gave himself... M'hael means Leader, yes? and Demandred was whineing during his inner monologue about being acustomed to leading from the rear during the Cleansing of Saidin at the end of Winter's Heart, correct?<br /><br />And as far as I know, noone has ever come forward to say that they knew Taim before he came to Rand. Sure, Bashere was sent to chase him, but there is no act of recognition when they meet and the soldiers only tense after he is announced as Taim (correct me if im wrong)...<br /><br />in any case, Taim is a Darkfriend at the very least...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 22:46:44
subject: <b>Taim = Demandred</b>
body:
I can see your point but if you consider that Demandred might have simply killed Taim and then pretended to be him either when he escaped or just after. That way he doesn't have to do anything except meet up with Rand and get into a leadership position VERY easily. Otherwise there would be another leader that he couldn't just say, &quot;Hey, I wanna be leader, move&quot; and get in control


created: 2002-04-08 08:04:04
subject: <b>Your Wrong</b>
body:
Taim, as i believe, is not demandred. But your theory is wrong because Rand told Taim to kill anyone who learnt to quickly. There would have obviously been a different m'hael and killed taimandred (supposing this is true<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lews Therin Telamon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Dragon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lord of the Morning<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Breaker of the World<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Kinslayer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 22:15:32
subject: <b>TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED</b>
body:
The title says it all  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-16 12:56:18
subject: <b>He never sees the threads</b>
body:
The threads are not a visible thing rand can see on all forsaken, they are visualized.  Check the part where rand severs Asmo from the dark one, iirc he had to try to find the threads, imagine where they should be, then cut them.  I don't think Rand has tried that with taim yet.  but i could be wrong


created: 2002-04-04 13:19:48
subject: <b>maybe, maybe not</b>
body:
I've thought about this too, but when he fought Rhravin he didn't see any chords. And for sure he didn't see them on narishma the whole time he was playing ashaman. the compelling thing is that taim has been channeling for 15 years and seems not at all mad. Taim at one point says that the taint affects people differently. But Fifteen years...? <br />Also he could have been under complusion, but we have seen the theories on how hard it is to force strong male channelers.<br /> I'm not sure, I can't decide if taim is. Complusion can become easier on a person if used frequently and often, so maybe Narishma used it on taim a little, all the time. Maybe that is how he finally made him attack Rand. It's all very fishy...<br />


created: 2001-07-17 13:34:20
subject: <b>Rand's logic circuits</b>
body:
Now, Rand always misinterprets Min's viewings, Egwenes dreams and the WO's dreams. He has continually failed to see what is plain under his nose, and in general does not understand anything.<br />Rand does not see anything suspicious about Taim's behaviour, ergo Taim is Demandred<br />Case closed<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 11:56:35
subject: <b>Blah</b>
body:
I don't think Taim is Demandred, I just do. Doesn't mean I like Taim any more though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyways...<br />Demandred, being the jealous git that he is, wouldn't want to be inferiour to Rand in any way.<br />Now, if Taim were Demandred, maybe he'd allow himself to be put in an inferiour position by Rand because of the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; thing. But he would NEVER admit to being inferiour in the Power, which he did when he said he didn't know how to Travel.<br />Demandred would just have said &quot;Yes, I know how to make gateways.&quot; matter-of-factly.<br /><br />So I just don't believe the whole Taimandred theory. But then, I'm a stubborn arse <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-27 07:27:09
subject: <b>Dumai's walls</b>
body:
There is a explanation to how Taim ended up there.<br /><br />This is an extract taken from Karl-Johan Nor&#233;ns summary.<br /><br />&quot;&quot;<br />Summary of various talks with Robert Jordan that I attended at the East of the Sun fantasy convention, Stockholm, Sweden the 16-18 of June 1995.<br />&quot;&quot;<br /><br />&quot;He said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: &quot;Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B.&quot; [ exact quote! ]. When finding out of the disappearal of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man. &quot;<br /><br />The actual praise should go to Karl-Johan Nor&#233;n for recording and publishing that text. Unfortunatley his homepage has been &quot;gone?&quot; for a couple of years now.<br />


created: 2001-08-12 18:34:19
subject: <b>Taim a forsaken...</b>
body:
OK, we know that Taim is a little weird. Well, who's to say that Taim isn't one of the other male forsaken? Maybe he's Moridin in disguise...<br />OK, so I'm not really buying it either, but hey. It's an idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Light and darkness in harmony <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Protecting innocent damsels since 1999 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Lone Wolf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-23 15:59:19
subject: <b>Asha'man scents</b>
body:
The only person whose scent changes too fast for any person is Rand. Perrin comments on it in Chapter 2 of CoS.  It's because of Lews Therin inside Rand's head, not because of saidin.


created: 2001-06-05 09:41:54
subject: <b>Memory theft</b>
body:
I konw this is old, but to answer Wotmania's conjecture about using the Power to steal someone's memories...<br /><br />That is refuted by Semirhage's work with Cabriana Mecandes. Shaidar Haran provided her with an Aes Sedai, and ordered her to wring out the woman's memories, to be used as Aran'gar/Halima's cover story when he/she goes to Salidar. Surely Semirhage would know if there was a way with the Power to steal memories, and it would have sped up her process, very desirable since she didn't like the thought of having to stay where Shaidar Haran had her working any longer than necessary.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 05:30:14
subject: <b>demandred aka taim=false</b>
body:
Let's make this simple, Demandred hates Lews Therin (rand)but Perrin didn't smell hate at dumais wells.


created: 2006-02-15 12:07:12
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I think Taim is Demandred. As Taim he has the best chance of spreading chaos by training the Asha'men and make some of them turn to the Shadow. In Winter's Heart he mentioned that those fools failed to kill the DR. The reason Perrin can't smell hatred is perhaps Taim is controlling it.


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Me again <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
if you use the quote 'despite how it ended...' to mean that dem is taim and helped rand, then you would have to say also the semirhage also helped rand out.... show me where <img src="images/wink.gif" />


created: 2001-09-24 17:04:23
subject: <b>But..</b>
body:
It said might, just cuz demandred(or his minion) help doesn't mean he has to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 13:01:14
subject: <b>Despite how it ended...</b>
body:
It might, quite simply, mean two things. first, Taim is controlled by Demandred. Second, nobody is linked with Demandred, but people would have expected Demmy to act and avoid Rand's escape. He didn't take part in the final stages of the fight, but took part in the earlier parts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 04:16:20
subject: <b>The result is the same</b>
body:
I do agree that in the long run it does not truely matter who Taim is.  He must be destroyed for his is a great danger to Rand.  But to be completely fair I must confess that I do enjoy reading the debate and am suprized at the excellent facts and amount of detailed attention that is paid to making each sides point.  But if one reads all that is written the result is the same..... Taim is a great danger to the Dragon Reborn and needs to be removed from the Pattern.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Guerrielle Vertrepas<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Guerrielle Vertrepas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />New to Wotmania and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 09:57:03
subject: <b>Problems</b>
body:
Problems with this (ignoring the fact that it's been disproven, as Dashiva is Osan'gar): First off, Taim was sited in Caemlyn at the end of Fires of Heaven, before Osan'gar and Aran'gar were reborn and given their orders. Two, I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't Sammael far to the north (either with Graendel or someone else) when that comment about events to the south was said? I never remember immediately thinking that it meant the Seanchan, and have yet to hear a good reason why that's the only thing he could have meant, as a lot of people seem to think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 08:50:53
subject: <b>Dashiva IS Osan'gar who was Aginor</b>
body:
1: Aginor created Trollocs and Myrrdraal.<br />2: Aginor was killed near the Borderlands and was given a Borderlander body.<br />3: Osan'gar says in the last chapter of &quot;Winter's Heart&quot; that having spent months as Corlan Dashiva has given him no fondness for exercise. THEREFORE OSAN'GAR IS DASHIVA.<br />4: In that same chapter and nearly same paragraph he says that his &quot;genius&quot; lay elsewhere and that Trollocs were his thinking. THEREFORE OSAN'GAR WAS/IS AGINOR <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Aimee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Money talks sense in a language all nations understand</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 22:52:30
subject: <b>wat the hell are you talking about</b>
body:
osangar is dashiva<br />and if not tell me why<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Bob, the Happy Vampire   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />=</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 14:29:15
subject: <b>holes</b>
body:
this theoryn has some major holes in it. first of all, lanfear is the 2nd most powerful, not aginor (ok, so that's not major, but i like her), aginor is proven to be osan'gar who is proven to be dashiva, who is dead


created: 2001-06-26 01:14:54
subject: <b>Pssh</b>
body:
The seals break on their own anyways so it is still up in the air.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 03:53:12
subject: <b>Wrong.</b>
body:
Many of the shadowsouled are attempting to delay the D.O.'s arrival until their own plots have hatched and they are pre-eminent amoungst their own.  <br />Remember, the forsaken consider each other more of a threat than anyone else living.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">M-<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Retired lorewarden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of bearded men. <br />I am become death, destroyer of worlds.  <br />I'm a simple man. All I want is enough sleep for two normal men, enough whiskey for three, and enough women for four. --Walter Slovotsky</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 23:16:54
subject: <b>Someone suggested...</b>
body:
Having a section for theories that make us the writers go &quot;my lord, was I ever wrong!&quot; (or words to that effect. This would be my number one candidate for that section, closely followed by any and all theoriues suggesting Sammael is still alive (even as a piece of slightly burnt bread with butter and jam on one side. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aki Ross<br />Ruriha In Disguise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Still a Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Wannabe Astronaut <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Mars Or Bust! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;It is not a fairytale. It is true.&quot;</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 07:02:47
subject: <b>Taim HAS to be a darkfriend</b>
body:
Considering that the record for male channelers staying relatively sane is about 3 years, after which they start rotting, Taim doesn't show even the slightest sign of being even a bit cooked, never mind raving mad and rotting to bits. He's not had so much as a fingernail fall off him. And he's been channeling for, what, 15 years did someone say? However long it is it's far too long.  Some Asha'man have already had to be put down. Suspicious? I think so.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 07:19:19
subject: <b>A question...</b>
body:
Where did you read Taim is Bela? I'd enjoy reading this.<br />Other things, you're wrong, Taim is a Darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-09 01:18:18
subject: <b>don't be retarded NM</b>
body:
<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 22:28:00
subject: <b>As far as I could tell...</b>
body:
... beyond the people actually named as darkfriends, Taim is the most obvious follower of the DO that I've seen yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Aolani<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Everybody's seen the things they've seen<br />We all have to live with what we've been&quot;  <br />~-~ Bruce Cockburn, Justice<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 01:46:43
subject: <b>That doesn't matter</b>
body:
As we have seen, the Shadow is back searching for the seals, and may well end up finding them.  As things stand, the seals seem to be breaking on their own (see Nynaeve and Elayne's seal for proof of this), so I agree w/ wotmania that giving up a seal that will crack anyway is a good trade just for getting close to al'Thor, and as it turned out, becoming in charge of all of those future Dreadlords in the Black Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">StanfordMatt0<br /><br />&quot;Don't blame me; I voted for Kodos&quot;<br /><br />We're # 1!  And I was there! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=240380024</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 00:09:30
subject: <b>mmm</b>
body:
mmmmmmmm..........<br /><br />....<br /><br />i only like this theory because i think Taim is cool. Otherwise, uve got like 1 peice of evidence to make this claim.....but i agree. Taim is something, but probaly not a DF nor Demandred.......And my only peice of evidence is that i think he's cool. I really have no other proof.<br /><br />GO M'HAEL! Woo!<br /><br />...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-21 15:13:01
subject: <b>Taim CAN and IS a Darkfriend</b>
body:
winters heart:<br /><br />kismans PoV:<br /><br />&quot;Kill Him,&quot; Taim had said.<br /><br />um.....no one besides darkfriends and unbelievers that he is the dragon would wanna kill rand. even his political enemies just want him out, not dead. taim wants him dead...taim is a um....black ashaman.


created: 2001-11-07 17:52:40
subject: <b>I do believe that..</b>
body:
I do believe that the general agreed idea about Taimondred is that is WAS Taim, until he got captured and broke free.  After this point, there are 3 possible ways it went:<br />1.   Taim taken to Shayol Ghul (sp?) and turned with 13 dreadlords and 13 myrdraal.<br />2.   Demondred kills Taim and takes his place.<br />3.   Taim is simply rescued by Dragonsworn, still on the Light's side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 12:17:49
subject: <b>taim wanted rand dead</b>
body:
in WH, taim gave the order to the renegade Ashaman to kill rand before the forsaken did<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Courage is not the lack of fear,<br /> but the conquest of it.                      <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Blade Master Vin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> V. Cyr <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 14:57:58
subject: <b>Dashiva:</b>
body:
***SPOILER ALERT***<br /><br /><br />Aran'gar is Aginor. TWoRJTWoT says that Aginor created the Trollocs, so...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 01:37:27
subject: <b>Dashiva</b>
body:
Actually, I must disagree with the post directly above mine.  Osan'gar is, in fact Aginor reborn, who, incidentally, has been proven to be Asha'man Dashiva (see <i>Winter's Heart's</i> conclusion if you need evidence).  <br /><br />Also, Aran'gar is Balthamel [spelling?].  If you need proof of this, refer to page 317 in a hardcover copy of <i>Winter's Heart</i>.  Osan'gar says to Aran'gar something about knowing nothing beyond the scope of old history text books (or something.  My memory fails me on exact words at the moment).  Balthamel was the greatest historian of the Age of Legends.  <br />I don't know about you, but that's far too many &quot;coincidences&quot; for these options to not be fact.<br /><br />Hope this helps somebody clear some things up in their mind.<br />Peace.


created: 2001-12-01 22:59:51
subject: <b>Taim is Not Demandred</b>
body:
Nothing more needs to be said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Haiku <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Long hair to shoulders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> But is short on the forehead. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Now, THAT'S a mullet! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 20:46:23
subject: <b>Ummmm....</b>
body:
Sorry to spoil your party, but Sammal(sp) is dead. RJ said so himself. I don't remember the quote exactly, but RJ said something to the effect of Sammael is gone...forever...<br />Well, i can't really disagree w/ the rest of the theory b/c i don't have any real hard evidence, but i'll have to disagree w/ you just b/c i'm evil and there are too many &quot;coincidences.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 18:28:21
subject: <b>see sig</b>
body:
<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 14:49:32
subject: <b>taim</b>
body:
In this paragraph you said that sammael isn't dead.  Well how do you know that?  I mean I think he is personally.  We don't know.  I think that the Machin Shin got him...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Lady Faile t'Bashera</font><br /><font color="darkblue">The last of the Gunslingers and of the Katet 19</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="green">Urza's and Jojjo's Aes Sedai!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="blue">Aes Sedai to Rand the Dragon Reborn</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep and Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 14:55:37
subject: <b>Agrred</b>
body:
This sounds very reasonable. I will believe this until someone comes with a better therory (unlikely) or RJ proves this wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-28 10:09:06
subject: <b>Taimandred? I think not...</b>
body:
I like this theory, the wheel turns and what was is again. The whole situation of Taim being a second Demandred if you like to Rand has merit.<br /><br />In addition to support the idea that Taim is not Demandred it is mentioned that Rand through Lews Therin's memories knows exactly what all the Forsaken look like, their mannerisms, their weaknesses, their strenghts etc. Unless Demandred has been using an inverted weave the the mask of mirrors Rand would know immediately if Taim was Demandred. I could go on all day, why would Demandred set himself up as a false dragon and be caught by today's Aes Seadai? I think Taim is Taim... and perhaps the new Demandred?


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>the test <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
I have no clue how Taim learned the test, but that doesn't mean he couldn't do it... after all Nyn 'learned' to heal stilling (something that couldn't be done), Egwene was learning to be a dreamer before the wise ones taught her, Rand learned some channelling before LTT started talking, etc, etc, etc.   Everyone in these darned books is learning something new <img src="images/smile.gif" />  Why not Taim?


created: 2001-06-13 00:34:58
subject: <b>No Sweat</b>
body:
Aside from teaching Rand the Saidin test Taim also was the one to teach Rand the Aes Sedai trick of ignoring heat or cold. It is unlikely Aes Sedai taught him or that he just figured it out. I also can't see one of the Forsaken teaching it to him if he is a Darkfriend, why would they


created: 2001-07-25 01:06:12
subject: <b>The test</b>
body:
Yes, but healing Stilling was something she was trying very hard to do, with 3 people to study, and she had an idea of what to do. Do you think Taim just randomly stumbled into having someone concentrate on a flame (or whatever the test was) for up to 10 minutes and knowing that what he felt meant they could channel? I don't think he is Demandred, but I do think he's a darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 12:37:48
subject: <b>would Damandred let Osan'gar come so close</b>
body:
It is true that Corlan Dashiva spends most of his time with Rand before betraying him, but I cannot think that Taim (if he were Damandred) would work in concert with him. Also, in Far Madding, Kisman reflects that the M'Hael, Damandred, and Moridin all order him to kill Rand as if they do not know about each other's orders. Of course, that could be a ruse, but why bother? It seems likely that Osan'gar or Damandred have been teaching Taim (since only a darkfriend would want Rand killed?).


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>The test II</b>
body:
He tied the weave off, leaving a few hours for a res test, not just a couple of seconds or a few minutes


created: 2001-11-16 09:48:48
subject: <b>...Or not</b>
body:
Maybe he just ignited the firewood and left it burning without weave.<br />This theory is not so improbable, the example was a bit off. Taim could be scouting ahead with the Power (eavesdropping or whatever, I don't know) or he could've been preparing things. In any case scouting or preparing would take a good while of active channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 21:42:07
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
taim has been proven not to be demandred through RJ telling us demandred didnt recognize flinn, that in itself proved it to me (all you others who hold out aught to get your eyes checked, u have tunnel vision). and i was always interested in Weiramon's attitude towards Rand. whenever Rand tries to set the man down in some way he takes it the wrong way and makes himself look better, demandred thinks he is above everyone of this age(we know this from his POV's), and that would fit nicely, he is so full of himself that he see's rand comments as compliments and stuff. how it should have been back in the AoL when LTT and him were mates.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rand will lose a hand and be a beggar.<br />Logain will kill Taim, after Rand is &quot;killed&quot;.<br />Mat will save Egwene from the headsmen.<br />Cadsuane will teach the Asha'man the taint isn't cleansend.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-14 22:24:58
subject: <b>NOOO!</b>
body:
This has nothing to do with the theory, but with the subscript under that dude above me.  If the taint is not cleansed, I will cry for an entire age. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2001-10-21 16:47:14
subject: <b>Could Be</b>
body:
I agree Taim is not Demandred, and never really thought that maybe Weiramon is, but you bring up a good point which could suggest that Weiramon is not all he appears to be.


created: 2001-11-02 20:11:27
subject: <b>at least a darkfriend</b>
body:
just before the big battle sequence against the seanchan, weiramon and rochaid (known darkfriend) are in some deep conversation about rand. they seem to be rather shocked when nurelle shows up and might have overheard.....


created: 2002-04-20 10:22:34
subject: <b>Not sure, but...</b>
body:
I'm not convinced that Weiramon IS Demandred, but there is something definitely fishy about him. One of the remarks about Weiramon that has always made we wonder the most is in TFOH:<br /><br />&quot;The High Lord's [Weiramon's] sigil lacked only a few stars to duplicate Lanfear's, but the long-nosed fellow was not her in disguise...&quot; <br /><br />Why would RJ put that particular comment in? He can't possibly think that anyone in their right mind believe for one minute that Lanfear would conceal herself as a middle-aged rather pompous little man, just because he has a some moons and stars on his sigil? You may as well claim that Mat is Lanfear based on the fact that he has similar moons on his ring.<br /><br />To me, it practically says that he's not Lanfear BUT he is another one of the Forsaken. Especially as RJ has a habit of dropping EXTREMELY subtle hints. <br /><br />(The fact that it only took me about two minutes to work out which book it was in and then locate the quote is quite worrying!)


created: 2002-05-01 19:55:17
subject: <b>It ain't Taim, so it's gotta be somebody</b>
body:
Up until WH, I was one of the biggest advocate of Taimandred, but RJ flat out told us he ain't.  <br />I really like the Weiramon theory because he conveniently showed up at Cairhein in tFoH, but where was he in tSR?  He practically appeared out of nowhere, at the same time other Forsaken are magically appearing.  All the Darkfriend's in the series have the uncanny habit of trying to do whatever Rand doesn't want him to do.  The ones who are really loyal obey, and if they argue, they are too afraid to deliberately oppose him.  But not Weiramon.  He always does the stupidest thing he can in any situation.  That scene in PoD convinced me he is a DF, and WH convinced Taim isn't Demandred.  Weiramon is in a perfect position to observe his agent's.<br />My doubts stem from the fact that the same inconsistancies that surround Dobraine and Demandred would also apply to Weiramon.  I'm sure he was in Cairhien when Lanfear vanished, although he wasn't visable.  Also, wouldn't he recognize the Asha'man.  Just because Weiramon appears to be an idiot, doesn't mean Demandred is.<br />So all in all, I guess I am undecided.  I don't really see any concrete evidence one way or the other, but I will say that he is probably the strongest candidate.


created: 2002-07-30 15:16:35
subject: <b>No way is Demandred Weiramon</b>
body:
Weiramon is an idiot, an idiot extremely proficient at being idiotic, but still just an idiot.  Jordan never gives any indication otherwise, except that maybe hes a darkfriend, but more likely, just an idiot.  He doesn't act at all like Demandred.  Demandred was extremely jeolous of LTT, Weiramon preens every time Rand so much as looks at him.  He never really just &quot;appears&quot; in a High Lord Samon like manner, everybody acts like he's been a high lord for a while, and I don't buy that a Forsaken could convincinly pull off taking someone's place to people familar with him.  Also, the guide says that Demandred would probably have been the most honored man of his age if not for LTT.  He would definetly be smarter than Weiramon...and too proud to hide it.  I would still bet on Taim being Demandred over Weiramon, but its not either one of them.


created: 2007-08-05 07:37:01
subject: <b>Something Rand said concerning the Asha'man attack..............</b>
body:
Many people probably read this theory and think why would there be two forsaken in Tear? If we think back to the first time Rand encountered Asha'man after the attack one of the thoughts that ran through his head was something to the effect of a wise planner would leave agents in place after the attack  in case it failed. I think this is what has occurred here. The Stone of Tear is so entwined with the prophecies, housing Callandor and serving as one of the major signs that the Dragon has been reborn, that the DO would place two agents there just in case the first was killed and/or deposed. Essentially Be'lal was a decoy to hide the true plan, placing an agent close to Rand. Unfortunately Rand took an immediate dislike to Wieramon, and decided to head into the waste rather than ruling and commanding from Tear. This could also explain Sammael's comments about Demandred's &quot;friends in the south&quot; as I think it was actually Wieramon who was leading the force Rand sent against Sammael, well actually it was an Aielman I forget which one but Sammael likely didn't know that. So he naturally assumed it was Demandred/Wieramon leading them. I  may be in left field on this one but then again maybe not.


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Recognize</b>
body:
ok, ok, here I go again...  If dem took over Taim's body/soul just to get in with Rand, then why would he not make himself look exactly like Taim?  Chew on that and spit <img src="images/wink.gif" />


created: 2001-07-28 20:56:50
subject: <b>An interesting counter-point....</b>
body:
Even IF Taim had been sitting around a campfire with his men, how could he have known what the resonace meant?  Also, when Taim is testing the first couple of men, he says &quot;consentrate on the flame until you and the flame are one&quot; or something of the like.  How likely is it that one of his soldiers reached that mental state?  And even if all these unlikely things happened, and Taim knew that the man could learn to channel, why wouldn't he teach the man to channel, possibly for a second-in-command, or at least an ally to watch his back.  He couldn't be worried about betrayal, because the soldier would be Dragonsworn.<br /><br />Okay, okay, I'm done.  I'm not sure which side of this I'm on yet, because I've found several flaws with each theory.  But, whatever.  I should be deciding soon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 13:25:26
subject: <b>I hate to do this</b>
body:
But Taim doesn't show up until after the Forsaken are released from the prison.  The first word of Taim is in the beginning of tGH.  Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that Taim isn't Demandred, but your theory does nothing to prove that he isn't.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 11:10:21
subject: <b>Hornsounder</b>
body:
<br />While Taim may not be one of the Forsaken, I believe he is probably one of the first of the new Dreadlords.  As for his learning to channel, there is nothing to say that Ishamael never came to him.  Some may argue if this was true why would he procalim himself dragon, and in response to that i would say this.  What better way to destablize the borderlands than to have a false dragon running around?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 19:33:52
subject: <b>Ok, ok, ok.</b>
body:
This is one of the firs arguments against Taim being Demandred that I`ve found. It truely is sound evidence. But, lets talk about Shadar Haaran. I for one beleive him to be an embodiement of TDO. TDO cannot himslef touch the world, but can have a vessel that he uses. If this is true, then it supports the following. The Dragon is powerful, obvioulsy. Powerful enough to chalange the TDO himself. If TDO can have this vessel ability, then perhaps, with the proper use of the Power, so could The Dragon. Demandred was almost as strong as Lews Therin. It was one of his reasons for becoming a Chosen. If he is close enough in strength of the Power to Lews Therin, then he too might have this vessel ability. It is a simple fact that the Chosen have been concious of the world despite having been trapped in the Bore. Demandred could have had a vessel to use in the same way, hence the early appearence of Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 18:44:14
subject: <b>Black Ajah</b>
body:
I agree that Taim isn't one of the Forsaken, and I don't know about the &quot;fireside&quot; thing for him learning the test. However, we do know that the Black Ajah were claimed to be planning to release Taim and use him against Rand. Maybe they did the 13 sisters and 13 myrdraal ritual and turned Taim to the Shadow. Then he could have been taught the test by one of the Forsaken to prepare for his mission of getting close to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 07:51:27
subject: <b>a few flaws</b>
body:
Even if Taim says he has been channeling for 15 years (though I'm pretty sure he said about 10) we have no proof of that other than Taim's word. Even if he's not one of the forsaken we know he is at least a darkfriend, so one can't use something he said as proof enough for a theory to work. I don't know about the whole fire/resonance thing. I guess it's possible he could have stumbled on it himself. At least we know he's definitely a bad guy now, maybe we'll get a Taim POV in CoT, let's hope so.


created: 2002-10-04 22:51:57
subject: <b>who knows?</b>
body:
I still am loyal to the Taimandred theory, but i also agree that Taim likely was replaced by Dem after he escaped. After all, being an 'ally' of the DR is the perfect ruse for a forsaken. <br /><br />I realised though, that FIFTEEN years -count them- is a very very long time for a male channeler to hold off the Tain for, i mean, most men go mad within at max five years.<br /><br />I also note that now that the Taimandred theory is losing it's interest, most people say they 'were never really convinced of Taimandred anyway' i think that's quite funny, the lengths people go to to preserve their reputation to people they dont even know.<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-25 13:48:25
subject: <b>Agree but disagree</b>
body:
After reading your theory on mazrim not being one of the forsaken i agree.<br />But i also believe that taim is a darkfriend. how else has he resisted the taint on the source.<br />Perhaps he is part of a new breed of forsaken, as we know that new people can be linked to the DO


created: 2004-11-23 19:37:52
subject: <b>A few more points</b>
body:
Sure, you might have some points, but i have an answer for every single one. However, it will take too much time, so ill just put in some more evidence for the Taimandred theory.<br />Everyone here knows what the Forsaken think about the Aiel. &quot;So-called&quot;, right? The only people we've seen that have called the Aiel &quot;so-called&quot; have been forsaken. In the beginning of LoC, Taim says &quot;so-called&quot;. I personally think that this makes it OBVIOUS that Taim is one of the Forsaken.<br />So there.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rest in Peace, RJ</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 15:06:15
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
if you all remember taim vanashing and bashere being sent to kill him, is not possable, even probable that dem killed and or possesed taim to get close to rand? though as a counter demandred could just as easily apear in some random inverted mask of mirrors and become an asha'man like dashiva, but this would not really free him up enough for his other, more large scale plots...... i think dem is someone completly differant and unknown in the series so far.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-28 08:50:30
subject: <b>Ravens and rats</b>
body:
So do the agents of the Dark One--such as ravens and rats--actually report to the Forsaken? I thought they were more reporting to Shadowspawn, like Myrddraal. Don't know why I think this, but could anyone explain?<br /> But I do agree, and I did wonder how Tain knew immediately where to find old Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Seidazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Witch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Devoted Mat Follower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <i>It's been lovely but I have to scream now</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 13:56:45
subject: <b>easier explanation</b>
body:
Assuming Taim figured out that Rand had been captured by Aes Sedai, which isn't unresonable, then he may have just had all the Asha'man Travel in a straight line towards Tar Valon from Cairhein until they came across Dumai Wells.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 16:27:39
subject: <b>the power</b>
body:
taim could have posibly felt rands use of saidin when he broke out of the box. it was not long after that that the ash'aman started to apear. dont think so hard.


created: 2001-12-05 09:40:32
subject: <b>tavaren</b>
body:
Talmanes told Egwene that he could feel Mat pulling at him and others among the Band.  Even though, Taim is obviously not as close to Rand as Talmanes is to Mat, Rand is mre tavaren than Mat, so his pull would be stronger, and concievably pull someone who doesn't really care for him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-20 03:00:18
subject: <b>A few more things</b>
body:
Taim might not have needed the DO's help to find Rand.<br /><br />LoC ch55:p975 (paperback):<br />&quot;I had reason to visit you in Cairhien, and, well...&quot;<br /><br />This is days after Sulin and the palace servants ran around screaming &quot;Rand Al'thor has been kidnapped by Aes Sedai. Everyone in the city would have known, and Taim could have heard it in idle gossip, let alone from his agents in town.<br /><br />So, then, Taim does some math and figures out about how far away Aes Sedai could ride towards Tar Valon in x days.<br /><br />Then he Travels there. This is the least complicated part, due to WoT logic. One needs only to open the gateway on ground s/he knows; knowledge of the destination is much less important. <br /><br />Remember: Rand, Egwene, etc. have made gateways to places they have never been before. How much easier would it be for Taim and the Asha'man to go to a place where, say, a recruiting party may have passed within a few miles of? Then the Asha'man party begins doing that scouting-via-Traveling they did during tPoD, and voila, Rand is saved.<br /><br />And Taim can do all this without being Demandred.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-02-21 16:22:28
subject: <b>Prophecies of the Dragon</b>
body:
As much as I hate to admit it, answering this question was one thing that Prophecies of the Dragon did right.  Taim was informed that Rand was missing, and then had his Asha'man check the road up and down the Caerhein-Tar Valon road.<br /><br />Of course, take that with an entire shaker of salt - Prophecies of the Dragon was exceedingly poorly written for the most part.  The only *good* parts were chapters 5 &amp; 6 - 1, 2 and 3 were horrible, and 4 was decent but not great.<br /><br />For those that don't know, Prophecies of the Dragon is a book of adventures for the D20 RPG.  Terribly written, except for the last few chapters.  They didn't have stats for several people they should have, they threw the adventurers against monsters that are far too hard for them, and some of the writing was very confusing.  Sorry for being offtopic there.<br /><br />


created: 2004-10-22 03:25:41
subject: <b>RJ explained it</b>
body:
This is what &quot;http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator-tower2.htm&quot;  reported that RJ said on the matter:<br /><br />On the Asha'man finding Rand in LoC, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: &quot;Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B.&quot; [ _exact_ quote! ]. When finding out of the disappearal of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 09:57:42
subject: <b>Refreshing</b>
body:
A lot better than the Taimandred theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 15:27:17
subject: <b>Toram is dead</b>
body:
killed by Lan.  Demandred is alive.  Nuff said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 02:53:41
subject: <b>this theory is ridiculous</b>
body:
first of all the forsaken want fain dead.  in many occasions it has been aluded to that the dark one wants fain dead.  <br />  for example:  slayer is sent to the two rivers with trollocs to take care of the &quot;renegade&quot; (actually quoted by slayer)      fain mentions &quot;even that fool Isam played into my hands&quot;   <br />  toram isnt a forsaken.  he would not listen to fain, but kill him.  <br />  to explain his hatred of rand:  that would be the dagger/fain's influence poisoning him.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-04-23 15:56:37
subject: <b>Toram is dead</b>
body:
Toram was killed by Lan in Far Madding, and I don't think any of the Forsaken would go in there, because of the stedding ter'angreal.


created: 2003-01-28 15:06:27
subject: <b>Probably not and I'll tell you why...</b>
body:
While I'm not going to hazard a guess at who I think Demandred is disguised as, I think I can say for certain that it is not Toram.  That he WAS with Fain ought to be enough.  The shadow does not view him very highly anymore.  I also can't see him putting himself in a place where Lews Therin would be his equal (Far Madding). Toram is just another victim of Fains evil, not his own.


created: 2001-11-13 22:40:52
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I think Taim is also Demandred, in the meeting between most of the forsaken in WH, os'angar and Demandred are accused by Graendal (if i'm remembering correctly) to have failed their jobs of keeping any eye on Rand. As we know,  Osan'gar was Dashiva the Asha'man and was with Rand many times. What better way for Demandred to keep an eye on Rand than to be the leader of the Black Tower? Taim is also surprised in PoD when Rand tells him who it was that tried to kill him in the sun palace especially when Dashiva's name was mentioned. It kinda adds up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Well, sorta.


created: 2002-10-16 13:48:55
subject: <b>10 years?</b>
body:
It seems like Guire Amalsan was able to hold of madness for at least seven years. Yurian Stonebow was able to hold it of for somehting like 9-10 years during the Trolloc Wars. Logain has held it off for 6 years. To me that would imply that it isn't impossible to hold of the taint, just that it takes a strongwilled person to do it. And that there isn't to many of those characters(four in three thousand years is not a lot...).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 14:09:14
subject: <b>Sword is not the only weapons</b>
body:
Sword is not the only weapons that warriors use. The aiel themselves the apitomy of the warriors do not use swords. I am agreeing that it seems weird that he would not be that terrible at the sword but it is not that farfetched. Also he learned how to channel at an early age, hes been channeling for over 20 years. Maybe he never had a reason to learn how to use the sword.<br />


created: 2002-05-28 18:57:32
subject: <b>waitaminute</b>
body:
doesnt Taim say he was a soldier under some crazy general?<br />or was that Bashere? i'll have to look at that...


created: 2002-10-22 00:24:57
subject: <b>Saldaea is a big country</b>
body:
Some people would live a weeks ride away from the blight<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 01:05:09
subject: <b>A thing that's wierd though</b>
body:
As for Taim starting to channel early... That cannot be the case. Or else he barely used his channeling before he started to slow at 35+ years. Come on, it's pretty obvious that he's not who he says he is. Either he's been trained to channel by some dark force or... I doesn't fit anyway. <br />Also, given that sword seems to be the most important weapon in WOT, it's strange that he would have such a anti feeling for it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-23 16:32:32
subject: <b>also..</b>
body:
in one of the first few meetings between taim and rand, taim called rands army &quot;your so called aiel&quot;<br />now why would he say that..<br />


created: 2004-11-28 15:40:15
subject: <b>wake up and smell the kaf!</b>
body:
how could i haved missed such an obvious flaw in taim, how can he be unfamiliar with swords, being given and taught the sword is the sign of passage to adulthood in the borderlands! all i can say is doh!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 13:17:49
subject: <b>Not bad, but...</b>
body:
Demandred knows that Asmodean had been teaching Rand, so it may surprise him what Asmo taught and didn't teach.  Of course Rand probably never shared this plan with Asmo, so Rand never learned the test.  Anyway, I agree with you overall that Taim isn't Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 23:18:58
subject: <b>A thought?</b>
body:
You say &quot;Why would he assume such a country bumpkin from the backside of beyond would fall bass ackwards into how to do the test?&quot;, however, how would Taim have fallen &quot;bass ackwards into how to do the test&quot;?<br />Just a thought...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">________________<br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 03:21:16
subject: <b>The Forsaken</b>
body:
are indeed contemptuous and mocking towards the knowledge and ability of Aes Sedia but not towards the Asha&#8217;men.  Infact they are extremely weary of them. They know full well how dangerous these men can be.  <br /><br />Moghedien tells Nynaeve during their duel in TDR that men make tremendous natural weapons.  Graendal literally flees from a group of Asha&#8217;men when they come upon her going through Sammeal&#8217;s stash of angreal in Illian after he got eaten by Mashadar.  No, it&#8217;s hard to be contemptuous of such men many of whom can flatten whole villages in the blink of an eye.  Some can obliterate every thing for miles around and more.  <br /><br />No, the Forsaken don't underestimate Asha'men, and certainly not the Dragon Reborn.  Only Oran'gar dismissed the thought that Rand could clense Saidin and look how that wrong he was and how he ended up. <br /><br />So it could very well be that Demandred as Taim was shocked that Rand didn't know the Test.  Hell, Rand could Travel, but not test another for the ability to channel.  And it's funny that Taim kwew the correct term was &quot;traveling&quot; never having seen or used such a thing and without Rand telling him that was what weave was called.<br /><br />And finally if the Dragon Reborn never puzzled out the Test, which is hardly obvious, how likely is it that Taim just stumbled on to it.


created: 2002-03-03 20:06:42
subject: <b>Yadda yadda yadda</b>
body:
Ok, who was Rand in a previous life? Lews Therin. Was Lews Therin not around during the time of the Forsaken and what not? Yes he was. Do all the Forsaken treat Rand Like Lews Therin at that point? Yes they do. There for Taim (assuming he`s Demandred) Would have reason to beleive that Rand(LewsTherin) doesn`t know how to test.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 03:57:04
subject: <b>On the contrary</b>
body:
I would say Taim's inability to use a sword is strong evidence against him being just plain Taim.<br /><br />Taim is a general. He sets the Black Tower up along military lines. He commands them as a general would. He knows how to direct an army at Dumai's Wells. Fair enough, not every Borderlander knows how to use a sword. But a Borderlander who clearly has military experience?<br /><br />It seems phenomenally unlikely that, anywhere in Randland, a soldier could gain significant experience at commanding an army and never learn how to use a sword. However, a general in the Age of Legends, where battle with the One Power was at least as important as physical fighting, could easily do just that. <br /><br />In Demandred's POV at the end of book 9, you will note, in fact, that it is Demandred's opinion that a great general, and specifically himself, should not need to know how to fight at close quarters. Demandred is, by his own admission, a commander not a fighter.<br /><br />Perhaps you should rethink your theory.<br />


created: 2001-08-26 02:34:56
subject: <b>Taim The One Power General</b>
body:
At first I did not believe the Taim is Demandred theory. I'm still not sure. Some things make me wonder.<br /><br />The theory above does not convince me Taim is not Demendred. I agree with Leanna. In the Big White Book It says that Demendred was a good General. He would be used to using the Power in battle instead of physical weapons. He did not have to work his way up the chain of command to become general. He was put in command by the DO. He did not have to learn weopons. He probably looks on weopons with contempt.<br />If Taim is Demendred he would still feel the say about physical weapons.<br /><br />I still can't make up my mind about the Taim is Demendred theory.


created: 2002-02-01 09:27:27
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
Where does it say taim is bad w/ a sword?  He holds it in contempt because a normal weapon is beneith someone who can wield the power as a weapon, but I don't ever recall him being bad at it.


created: 2002-03-23 19:40:32
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
That failed to convince me in my opinion. Demandred was one of the most powerful channelers in the Age of<br />Legends. As you said Asmodean could not wield a sword and there is nothing to prove or disprove Rahvin, Aginor,<br />Balthamel or Ishmaael. What would be the point of the sword if you could kill thousands in the blink of an eye.<br />Demandred was a great general in the Age of Legends but so was Artur Hawkwing and your saying he rode in the<br />vanguard to battle. Great generals were famous for their strategic capabilities not swordsmanship.


created: 2002-07-10 01:43:42
subject: <b>hustling</b>
body:
i would really hate if Taim turned out to be Demandred. that being said, i disagree with your theory. let's just say  Taim is just pretending to be a bad swordsman, and everyone beleives it. this would gain him the element of surprise when/if he had to confront a very good swordsman (Rand, Lan maybe).  of course this would probably only be useful if the power couldn't be used. But maybe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Taim is capable of any sneaky little plan and i don't think he would hesitate to hustle his mother in a $5 game of pool. anyway i still don't think he's Demandred.


created: 2002-09-20 11:52:37
subject: <b>Treekillers!</b>
body:
Do all generals have to be swordfighters ?<br />Come on, Ishamael was a Great General in Trolloc Wars, as he tells in dreams, but at Falme he fought Rand's sword with a (power-made) STAFF.<br />We can't know every skill of Taim, now can we ?


created: 2002-10-03 02:45:10
subject: <b>Just curious....</b>
body:
Does it ever say that swords were even used in battle during the Age of Legends?  I seem to remember a comment on 'Shock Lances'  whatever they are, it seems to me that they were slightly more technologically advanced then swords and spears back then.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Son of the Nine Moons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Brother-in-law to Matt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I read more <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> They're coming to take me away. Heh heh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 19:17:38
subject: <b>It takes a Master to fake ignorance</b>
body:
I definitely remember a passage where one of the forsaken is recalling fencing with LTT before their ways split, both having been masters at it. While I can't even remember which of the books it was, thus not look it up quickly, nor am sure which of the male forsaken it was - I distinctly remember it being a sport then, not a viable way of fighting in the Age of Legends. <br />If it is Demandred who remembers it, it means nothing. It takes a master to pretend at incompetence believably enough.<br />If it isn't, then we don't know how Demandred has been at swords - he might have never bothered at all, being a child of his time - or been second best to LTT at this as well - or anything in-between - we simply don't know.<br />Frankly, I'm undecided on Taimandred, and actually I care little, I can wait and RAFO...<br />I just doubt that this bit is relevant on the subject at all.<br /><br />Lorin<br />(and this is my first post, I might have overlooked someone else saying this in any of the other Taimandred-related posts)<br />


created: 2002-10-30 22:52:38
subject: <b>no swords...other weapons</b>
body:
yes Lorin you are right. In DR when Rand is fighting Belal he says to Rand soemthing like &quot;do you remember when we took up a long forgotten sport and became masters of it&quot; He is talking about sword fighting right before they fought and Moraine balefired Belal. And yes, no medeival weapons were used back than. They used weapons that were powered by OP such as shock lances. In SR, when rand sees past through eyes of his ancestors, we learn about the jo-cars or something like. We know that they had fast moving transportation, something like airplains we have now, and regular cars, although in AOL they powered by the OP. I think they could've made somethign that is similar to our Tank or a Missile Luncher or soomething like that. Anywayz...in conclusion.....wait..what am was I proving?


created: 2003-03-14 11:43:38
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
the passage lorin is refering to is in the dregan reborn i believe rand is about to take callandor and use it when one of the forsaken i'm not sure which steps out and starts talking to rand asking him if he remembered the time when they took the tame sport of swords and learned how to kill with it. then they fight and moraine kills the male forsaken, rand takes callandor and the rest is history<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 16:33:55
subject: <b>No,you are wrong</b>
body:
Weiramon first appears in book 5 tFfH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 14:29:25
subject: <b>Irrelevant.</b>
body:
Couldn't Demandred have taking Weiramon over later on, using  inverted mirror of mist. Noone seems to know much about Weiramon aside from him sabotaging every plan through what appears to be clumsiness, so he shouldn't have to learn too much about Weiramon's earlier life etc...<br /><br />(Note: I don't consider this to be enough evidence as to whether Weiramon is/isn't Demandred.)


created: 2002-07-31 16:28:30
subject: <b>Weiramon is just a fool</b>
body:
Rand clearly only tolerates Weiramon because of his great power.  If he was Demandred, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb for rising so fast, i.e. &quot;Lord Brend&quot; and &quot;High Lord Samon.&quot;  And I don't buy into the fact that you can disguise yourself and replace someone when you're surrounded by people who know you well, there's no way Demandred could pull it off.


created: 2001-07-31 23:41:11
subject: <b>Woo hoo!</b>
body:
Awesome!  That is a really good theory.  it is very true that the same things that make everyone think Taim is Demandred are all present in the heroes, yet no one cares.<br /><br />Good Job!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 15:02:17
subject: <b>Sounds reasonable</b>
body:
I have considered the thought myself, that if some man learns to channel, he could turn to the Shadow for training and protection against the taint. With so many Darkfriends around, I would be surprised if one of them could not channel... And think how high rank among them he would gain for such an abillity!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 01:00:58
subject: <b>sanity at last</b>
body:
this is one of the best theories i have ever read here.  thank you for easing my mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-17 09:33:27
subject: <b>Good theory but</b>
body:
I would have loved it if Egwene really was a Forsaken. Give me even more excuse to hate her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Aimee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> I am all that was and all that will ever be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-20 14:48:51
subject: <b>Hey</b>
body:
What if you change the I in Ilyena to an E? Than it would have the same letters as Elayne. What if Elayne really is Ilyena?


created: 2002-04-25 12:07:26
subject: <b>Twould Seem</b>
body:
It would seem to me that the other explanation (if you would) is that all the others are indeed heros &quot;spun&quot; out of the world of dreams.  That would give the learner an advantage.  Not to say that there arent &quot;Dark-Friends&quot; that get spun out too...but where do the Non-Horners exist when they are &quot;in between&quot; lives.


created: 2001-10-20 15:29:57
subject: <b>I don't think he is</b>
body:
I don't think Taim is Demandred.  I think he is just a Demandred-like person who jioned the dark side because he wanted to be the Dragon.<br />


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>i agree, strangely</b>
body:
i think that there is a seanchan link with brigitte because she is meant to be one of the heros that is called by the horn of valere who ride with artur Hawkwing. The seanchan await the return of Hawkwing and are his ancestors, LINK! is it not possible that Brigitt is the daughter of the nine moons.<br />Secondly, Tel'aran'rhiod has been specifically said to not run along the same paths of time as anywhere else, as Matt never went into Tel'aran'rhiod, is it not possible that Cain was rewoven when Matt "died"?<br />Finally, minopr perhaps. Matt tends to chase every girl he sees, is it not odd that his relationship is different and perhaps more meaningful with Brigitt? just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Hopper<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Property of Eniariom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>To realise the value of one hour, talk to two lovers waiting to meet<br /><br />It's safe to fall if you just trust the ground that you stand on.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well (WH info)</b>
body:
First of all we all know who DotNM is now don't we???<br />Secondly, yes time runs differently in TAR, but always seems to Run forward.  Therefor Mat cannot be Gaidal Gain, at lest we forget that Gaidal Cain was at Falme when Mat blew the Horn.  Kinda hard for your soul to be in two places at once, as hard as that is to believe apparently for some people.


created: 2001-06-15 02:26:29
subject: <b>WRONG!!!</b>
body:
First, the man was a Seanchan, as seen when he left the inn where he met Mat, and he was thinking about how if Mat (I forget what he called him) knew of the DotNM (Daughter of the Nine Moons), then the time was ripe for the Return.  Second, Why should he ask Birgitte? She could not possibly know, as the last time she was actually in the world, no one knew of the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 20:03:24
subject: <b>One more thing...</b>
body:
About Mat and Birgitte's relationship, I have an answer for that, too.  In aCoS, There is a part on pg 588, paperback, where Mat thinks 'But that was not it: He would as soon have thought of kissing Nalesean.  The same as the Taire, just exactly the same as, he liked Birgitte.'  He probably wouldn't marry a woman who held as much attraction to him as a Tairen male.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 17:23:13
subject: <b>I havent read Winters Heart but.,,</b>
body:
I haventread Winters Heart (not out in paperback and cant find a copy in hard back) but I would just like to point out that Seanchan was wrong when he said that the man in the inn in Ebou Dar who recognised the name 'The Daughter of the Nine Moons' was not Seanchan. He was obvioulsy a scout for the Seanchan who subsequently invaded Ebou Dar.


created: 2001-11-05 22:17:23
subject: <b>You Are Wrong</b>
body:
I am starting to wonder whether or not we have read the same books, hehe, because there is almost no way that this theory could be correct.  The DotNM is Seanchan and we can also assume that this person is Tuon.  Also the person Mat talked to was Seanchan.  Oh well better luck next time.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-14 19:00:14
subject: <b>Aha........</b>
body:
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha. <br />better luck next time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />KAZANDAR<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Dancer of Death<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Kin of Dragons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />May you find peace before peace finds you!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 09:07:38
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I can fully disprove your theory.  Read Winter's Heart.  You find out that Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Also, when Mat refers to it in the tavern, the man who replys has a slurring sound to his voice, the Seanchan accent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 23:10:44
subject: <b>Great Idea but...No</b>
body:
It sounds like a great idea but I'd have to say I agree with Wotmania, esspecially about Mat since he is good looking and Gaidal Cain is not (plus all the other reasons).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Birgitte_wot and still bonded to Mierri and twigfairy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Master of the Pillow Pile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> The Official Chat Tea Dealer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Sorry, what did you say? I had the sh*t filter on&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 17:14:10
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
Get thee to a bookstore...<br />*snickers* HEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEE<br />I REALLY hope RJ DOESN'T read THIS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />next time, read the book first, mmkay?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-03 05:32:14
subject: <b>No, it says....</b>
body:
How much clearer can it get.  It states directly, straight out, that the Daughter of the Nine Moons is TUON.  Get it?


created: 2001-08-26 21:24:30
subject: <b>disagree, but interesting. . .</b>
body:
First of all, I would like to say that that was an interesting theory to be sure, but I think it's wrong. I agree with wotmania when he says that the daughter of the nine moons will be from the seanchan court, I can not support that guess of course but that's my input! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I also can't see what a marriage between those two could possibly accomplish, they both seem to dislike each other (to put it mildly) and I don't see how it could help. (unless it fulfills some obscure prophecy that we haven't heard of yet) Anyway nice theory!


created: 2001-10-14 00:24:31
subject: <b>Daughter of the Nine Moons is seanchan</b>
body:
In &quot;The Great Hunt&quot; before we even know that matt will marry DotNM, Tuon makes a statement refering to the court of the nine moons (a huge hint).  Several other times through the series we have seen several other references to &quot;something&quot; of the nine moons.  And then in winters heart when matt does meet Daughter of the Nine Moons, that pretty much sealed it for me.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-05 22:27:18
subject: <b>Read Winter's Heart</b>
body:
I believe in Winter's Heart Tuon is basically proven to be The Daughter of the Nine Moons.  I also cannot believe that Moraine is dead.  She is coming back garunteed.  Anyhow Mat and Moraine as a couple is just wrong becuase Mat is all paranoid around the power.  There is just no way it could happen.  If it does &quot;go you.&quot;


created: 2001-12-12 20:40:40
subject: <b>Nice &quot;theory&quot;.</b>
body:
Why post a theory if you have done absolutely no research into it? Do a tiny little bit of work before wasting time with these things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 09:50:00
subject: <b>its flamin tuon</b>
body:
if u bloody read the flamin book winters heart u would bloody know that u goat kissing sheep herders.in the bloody chapter what the aelfinn said mat alredy found the flamin daughter of the nine moons and bloody said shes my wife.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 12:18:52
subject: <b>was this posted before or after WH came out?</b>
body:
If before, i ridicule by saying once upon a sometime someone mentioned seanchan court of the nine moons. which kinda gives it away that tDoftNM is seanchan.<br /><br />If after, i say, 'READ WH!!' aaaaaanyway....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 17:09:46
subject: <b>Further disproof</b>
body:
You said you wanted to know what House Damodred's Sigil  was? The spreading Tree of Life topped by the crown of Cairhien. No moons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 04:20:10
subject: <b>Just a guess but . . .</b>
body:
I think it's Tuon, read winter's heart and Crossroads of Twilight and i think that you'll agree with me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-21 23:07:18
subject: <b>Just more evidence</b>
body:
That there needs to be a system for marking defunct theories.  This one is obviously incorrect, but the only way someone who has not read to WH could tell that is by the comments.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 17:26:46
subject: <b>This must be an old theory.</b>
body:
The Daughter of the Nine Moons is the daughter of the Seanchan Empress. Egeanin likes Bayle Domon (as is evident in Winter's Heart).


created: 2002-08-21 22:37:55
subject: <b>Nine moons</b>
body:
i have heard it allready and itss been awhile since i have actually read the series but Mat i think has allready found the Daughter of nine moons and she is with him and he knows who she is, but she doesnt know yet their fate<br /><br /><br />P.S. i am looking for pics of Lan could anyone suggest a site?


created: 2003-01-13 13:17:03
subject: <b>Tuon!</b>
body:
The Bloody Daughter of the Nine Moons is TUON!!!!  its been said since the great hunt! u gotta keep your eyes open


created: 2001-07-21 11:15:47
subject: <b>er...no</b>
body:
that was pretty bad, if you had read the seanchan you would know their mentality.<br />thing like in POD a seanchan comander comments on how some of the nobles would not be allowed to swear oaths because the simply call themself 'high lord(lady)' which is a title only for the blood.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jesus Hates Me</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 18:14:25
subject: <b>BZZZZZZT! Wrong! But thanks for playing.</b>
body:
*NM*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 17:14:17
subject: <b>WH</b>
body:
Have you even read WH?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 13:54:31
subject: <b>Who the Daughter of the Nine Moons is</b>
body:
I believe it is in the 6th or 7th book, but you will notice one of the Seanchan refer to the empress as The Daughter of Nine moons, it is mentioned only once and if I remember right seemed mentioned in an offhanded way.  As if we were to read it and dismiss it as well, which I did the first three times I read the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> They call me the Fireman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 18:54:38
subject: <b>Could you go back.......</b>
body:
and actually read the series this time.  First of all The Daughter of the nine moons is a seanchan princess.  <br />And from what i've read Mat has already kidnapped her (not realizing his mistake). So sorry but you weren't even close <br /><br />oh and the thing about lanfear and moiraine being merged....ahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />KAZANDAR<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Dancer of Death<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Kin of Dragons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />May you find peace before peace finds you!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 17:53:49
subject: <b>Ummm...psyco wife?</b>
body:
As to the critic's comment on Mat having a psyco wife, look at Faile, she's gotta be one of the more psyco chicks in the book that I can think of. But hey, oh well, The Daughter of The Nine Moons is the empress's daughter. HF<br /><br />&quot;Eagles may soar, but weasles never get sucked into jet engines.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 01:15:04
subject: <b>its called Winters Heart</b>
body:
THE DAUGHTER OF THE NINE MOONS IS TUON! A SEACHEN!!! Mat even knows its her, and couldnt u tell that hes gonna marry her, once he saw her and said &quot;she really is beautiful&quot; on his way up to talk to a damane.  And the thing about moraine and lanfear is not... well right . does anyone think moraines coming back?


created: 2002-09-19 21:23:48
subject: <b>Wha -?</b>
body:
Ok, remember all the times Mat said he hated Aes Sedai and didn't like the One Power and suchlike?  Ok, remember how Moiraine is Aes Sedai and can use the Power?  Do you think Mat would marry her, even if the 'finn said he had to?  Er - no.  Besides, there have been WAY too many hints that Thom and Moiraine will marry and we all know RJ doesn't put a single word in the books without it becoming its own subplot.<br /><br />Besides, Cyndane is LANFEAR.  Not Moiraine.  Why do we all assume that any short woman who is someone reincarnated is Moiraine????????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation.<br />-Georges Clemenceau<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 15:43:24
subject: <b>HAHAHA.... no.</b>
body:
sorry, but i don't think so. as everyone above said, just look at winter's heart. plus, moiraine is coming back as moiraine cause she rocks and would never allow anyone to mix her up with lanfear. so there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 16:11:40
subject: <b>You are even dumber than...</b>
body:
If you've read the books - and you speak english - you are the dumbest person I have ever heard about. You sir, have replaced the guy who thought Eganin was the Daughter of the Nine Moons, as the dumbest person on my list. (he by-the-way replaced George Lucas)<br /><br /><br />PS. I Bet you thought that JarJar Binks was a great Idea


created: 2003-08-24 00:06:15
body: <p align="right"><font size="-1">Blackboard Post: 18455</font></p>None
subject:
<b>THIS got posted instead of my lovely theory on the nature of cheese, and it's lifesaving properties?? *NM*</b>


created: 2001-06-15 02:34:52
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
This is a very sound theory, but I think Mat will be taken to the Seanchan homeland, as this opens some interesting possibilities; Rand goes to rescue Mat, and the Empress submits to Rand (too easy), some how the horn finds it's way to Mat, who is after all the Hornsounder, and calls up Hawkwing to talk to the Seanchan, something like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 08:48:54
subject: <b>Good Catch</b>
body:
Congrats! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> This is the first place that I found that correctly determined who the DOTNM is before it was revealed in WH!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 14:51:10
subject: <b>true, but</b>
body:
the poster said he hadn't read that far!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Susan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT swearer</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 18:12:51
subject: <b>Wrong!</b>
body:
One word says it all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 22:35:19
subject: <b>DotNM = Tuon</b>
body:
First the DotNM is definately a high noble say...um i dunno.. the daughter of an empress.  Secondly DotNM is Tuon, we all now this from Winter's Heart.  Egeanin is definately not that important in the Seanchan society.  Egeanin is going to be important later on for sure, but she is definately not DotNM.


created: 2002-03-23 19:27:56
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
i robert jordan likes suprising twists- but its obvious<br />that the DotNM is tuon. you can even see mat fall in love<br />with her. first he says shes skinny and bald. then he<br />says shed be pretty if she werent bald. then he says shes <br />pretty anyways. then shes beautiful. see where its going?


created: 2002-08-24 01:34:06
subject: <b>ha thats funny</b>
body:
i think its funny that he said that he Definitely will not marry tuon when we know he will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 22:12:29
subject: <b>This theory is so obviously wrong that it should be deleted</b>
body:
First of all, from WH, we know that Egeanin is going to free Domon from being so'jihn specifically so that she can marry him. It's not that she just thought he was good looking, they are in love. We hear from Egeanin's own mouth when Mat has Tuon tied up that it is death to lay hands on the Daughter of the Nine Moons. So all I have to say is, duh. This was posted after WH came out and I can't for the life of me understand why.


created: 2003-01-13 16:07:09
subject: <b>Quite Possibly the Dumbest person in existence.</b>
body:
Yup. The title says it all. If you've read the books -and can speak english- then you have no excuse. You are, infact sir, the dumbest person alive - replacing George Lucas as the top of my list.


created: 2003-04-29 20:00:18
subject: <b>Um, the DOTNM has been solved long ago</b>
body:
Okay, this is one sort of theory that I have never understood. Unfortunately I am at work right now, so I dont have any of the books with me. However, the Daughter of the Nine Moons debacle was solved long ago, two seconds after mat left the snakes (or were they the foxes?).<br /><br />Okay, so in The Great Hunt, when we are first introduced to the Seanchan, we here the High Lord Turok (or however it's spelt) refer to the Court of the Nine Moons, the Seanchan court. The empress, therefore, would be the 'mother' if you will.<br /><br />And so, the Daughter is the Heir. Now, wasnt that simple.


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>A few additions I thought of</b>
body:
Great theory!  The way I see it, Mat will not just "give up" his eye.  He will probably end up getting in a fight to save Rand, and in the process, lose his eye.  The bartering that is in Norse mythology will ty in because Mat will trade his life for Rand's, at least in his eyes. . .or eye, and somehow come out alive.  Anyway, that's what I think.  <p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Archer13<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />  Logic is the systemmatic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 14:41:20
subject: <b>Well well...</b>
body:
Excuse me but Odin did not give up his eye to save Thor.<br />He gave it up to gain knowledge, at Mymer&#180;s well or something like that. I&#180;m from Sweden so I should know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-12 13:01:02
subject: <b>that's not right</b>
body:
Loki couldn't even lift the hammer.<br />Thor died on the same day as Odin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 15:13:04
subject: <b>Empresses Daghter</b>
body:
Yes, you are right the Daughter of the Nine Moons is a relative of the Empress of the Seanchan and &quot;Daughter&quot; points that part out.This will also in a way connect Rand to the Seanchan.


created: 2002-02-14 14:53:31
subject: <b>Mat= Odin/Wotan</b>
body:
I really like that particular equation...<br />especially when you think about wotans spear, which is inscribed with runes on which all his treaties are written down. sound familiar?


created: 2002-10-13 08:01:51
subject: <b>I am glad</b>
body:
that someone else noted the correct reason for Odin losing his eye. Also it was Baldur and not Thor that died, with the God of Thunder surviving to the end at Ragnorak when the Fenris wolf takes him down.


created: 2001-06-15 02:41:51
subject: <b>Wow! I like it!</b>
body:
Great theory! One problem, though.  Berelain would probably not want to give up Perrin.  She strikes me as a very determined woman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 08:58:23
subject: <b>LoL</b>
body:
<br /> Good theory... Too bad it isn't true :-P Mat and Beralain would have made a good match, but I doubt RJ would have let him marry someone he'd love at once. Mat is used as a sort of comical relief, and so far in the story, there have been too many happy, perfect couples, don't you think?<br /><br />~Vicky~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Random Anonymous Egwugwu<br />First sister and sul'dam to Sun and Moon<br />I'm going to insert a good quote here.... as soon as I think of one.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 17:22:42
subject: <b>Where is the referance that Berelain last name is sur Paendrag?</b>
body:
I don't remember thar reference.  But I like the implications it may<br />represent in reguards with the Seanchan. By now we know that Tuon is the <br />daughter of the Nine Moons.


created: 2001-11-09 17:10:05
subject: <b>Not A Chance</b>
body:
I can't remember which book it was in, but I read somewhere that all the rulers of Mayene are given the last name sur'paendrag because when Mayene was created, only descendants of Artur Hawkwing where supposed to rule, and since their aren't any more of these known of on this continent, it became a formality.


created: 2002-04-29 18:39:21
subject: <b>long-fingernailed hussy??</b>
body:
long-fingernailed hussy - LOLing... cheers - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) tgoth


created: 2002-12-17 08:11:20
subject: <b>Ummm yeh not tre your theory is</b>
body:
Didnt min predict Beralin would fall head over heals or something for a man in white ? mat does not really wear white...<br /><br />our biggest candidate is galad<br /><br />and Mat has met is daughter of nine moons already<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 22:40:19
subject: <b>Man in White</b>
body:
While I agree with the notion that Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag IS the Daughter of the Nine Moons and Berelain is prophesied to fall head over heels for a man in white (Galad?). However, as Devil's Advocate, Mat is running away from the Seanchan, dragging (after kidnapping) Tuon along with himself. Supposing the Seanchan catches Mat. After excruciating punishments, Mat may be made da'covale. Da'covales wear white, don't they? Berelain may fall for Mat in da'covale white, only if Berelain sur Paendrag is indeed intended for Mat!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 13:14:58
subject: <b>Hate to put this theory in the trash but...</b>
body:
Uhm when it says mat likes her boobs or whatever, that doesnt mean he likes her.  I mean comon, how many times as mat compared or mentioned that part of the female body?? TONS of times with almost every woman!<br /><br />And also all the other stuff about the man in white and how Tuon is the only daughter of the nine moons makes this theory wrong, but hey nice try.


created: 2003-07-28 10:36:24
subject: <b>lemme tell ya something about this theory...</b>
body:
I wanna ask you, WHEN has ANYONE gotten the woman they want?? Look at Perrin!!! He wanted a quiet life with peaceful wife, and got a headstrong general's daughter that's related to a queen. And Thom says he only joined up with the boys in the first place to keep them out of trouble with the aes sedai, but (hopefully) he's gonna be with Moiraine! That's just two of these many unusual relationships. So, why should Mat get the woman of his dreams? Besides, we now know that it's Tuon, so it doesn't matter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />~Master of the Ashandarei~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Kneel to the Lord Nae'blis or you will be knelt.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> The Dark One's own luck... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />If you need a friend, look no further!! I like having friends...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 00:05:24
subject: <b>re: Maybe it's...</b>
body:
Besides, think about it. If someone kills the president of the US, do they now become President? Of course not! That's ridiculous. The Seanchan seem pretty set that the Empress must be descended from Hawkwing, why would the murder of their Empress make them want Tylin as queen? Not that it matters as we now know who the DotNM is, but still.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 22:18:33
subject: <b>DotNM</b>
body:
Yes, those of us who has read WH, know that Tuon is DotNM.<br /><br />But even if Tylin killed the Emperess, or succeeded her, she would not be DotNM. Tuon, daughter of the Emperess is DotNM. Unless Tylin is adopted by the Emporess, she couldnt be DotNM<br /><br />THat is all<br />Goodbye


created: 2001-08-10 22:38:37
subject: <b>Bad Boojo!</b>
body:
GO SIT IN THE CORNER! BAD BOOJO! Nuff said<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Asian pride world wide!&quot;<br />&quot;Go for the eyes Boo!&quot;-Minsc from Baldur's Gate<br />&quot;They need a smiley wearin' one of those asian field worker hats...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> my friend bobby<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> WOT4life!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> go Mat!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 05:35:37
subject: <b>its not tylin</b>
body:
Sorry. We find out who the daughter of the nine moons is in books 9, Winter's heart. If you havnt read them all you better get reading b4 crossroads of twilight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 02:45:12
subject: <b>Not Bad</b>
body:
One problem with that theory.  If Tylin is Seanchan, why were they tearing down the city the last we saw of them?  They would just have to send a high lord or lady to inform Tylin that she was being relieved of her country<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-29 02:50:56
subject: <b>a bit behind?</b>
body:
i just finished reading winter's heart. i was under the impression that tuon is the &quot;daughter of the nine moons&quot;.  I would think the fact that egeanin (or whatever the english translation is) calls her that in chapter 31 is sufficient proof?!


created: 2001-09-10 23:53:02
subject: <b>Wishful thinking</b>
body:
I'd really really like Tylin to be the daughter of the nine moons, but given Tuon being called &quot;The Daughter of the Nine Moons&quot; several times in the books, it kind of, well, disrupts those hopes. Dammit, if it could only happen, that'd be great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lover of women <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of Chaos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />The Trickster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Pat Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 19:45:30
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
Tylin can't be the dughter of nine moons. First of all they had been seen together by Mat. Secend if that wan't enogh proof for you Mat tied her up gagged her and soved her under the bed.  She was there and chasing Mat when it was talking about the doughter of nine moons on the boat to Ebu Dar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 22:42:29
subject: <b>Or Not</b>
body:
Tylin is not the DotNM.  Sure the whole adopted thing is there, but let's reflect on what we learned in Winter's Heart... Tuon = TheDotNM.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />WOT Math Genius<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> DragonFiend <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-28 18:51:23
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Nope. Tuon is called the DotNM several times, and besides, I<br />think Tylin is in there just for amuesment. She is funny, yes?<br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Taraboner of doom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> The blob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-06-15 02:48:41
subject: <b>OOOOOOHHHHH....AAAAAHHHHHH</b>
body:
Very good, in my thinking.  I had forgotten that the Ravens are on his spear-thing, and ravens are the Seanchan symbol.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 16:21:49
subject: <b>forgive me but....</b>
body:
.....Tuon didn't show up until we knew who she was anyway which was in WH or did I skip a chapter somewhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 20:12:54
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
That would be fun, or maybe he gets in a fight with some of the Deathwatch guards, and totally whoops them up.  THAT would definately find it's way to the ears of a noble, the Seanchan's prime weapon getting rocked by one man with a funns staff?  Nifty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-18 00:19:29
subject: <b>pretty good.....</b>
body:
I liked your theory; it pretty much summed up everything that I had noticed. But I found one SMALL mistake: it wasn't 2 moons around the border, but multiple small ones. I would look it up right now, but I don't have the book on hand at the moment.<br />Alrae<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="goldenrod">Lady Alrae of House Carillon</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="maroon">Snooty Tairen Noble Extraordinaire</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /> AKA <b><font color="red">Paine</font></b> <img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><b>I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All Hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-23 17:21:43
subject: <b>it was nine</b>
body:
I can't find the particular quote but I remember them saying there were Nine moons on the signet ring<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 01:42:37
subject: <b>It would be cool</b>
body:
to see Berelain's ancestory play a bigger part in this series. Rand has used her as a steward frequently, maybe once he conquers Seanchan she can rule there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 16:24:16
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Your theory got proven wrong in Winter's Heart... not a bad guess, though. Probably would have been better if it HAD happened that way... oh well. Winter's Heart sucked except for the parts with Rand in it. Got to love the end of Book Nine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 02:18:55
subject: <b>A rape?</b>
body:
It seemed to me that Rand opened himself to being touched by the One Power during both his bondings.<br /><br />Verin also states in tPoD that she cannot Compel men because they do not trust her to use the OP on them.<br /><br />This doesn't really sound like complete overpowering of another person to the point where they can do nothing to resist anything that is done to them, which is what virtually all rape situations have sounded like to me.<br /><br />Logain did it completely against Toveine's will--but that is probably explained by Moiraine's comment that using the OP makes one vulnerable to such things as being turned to the Shadow by the Black Ajah and Myrrdraal. Perhaps it doesn't work like that on non-channelers.<br /><br />Otherwise, the Greens of the past would have Warder-bonded the entire army that fought against the Trollocs, etc. (which didn't sound like it happened)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-10-18 10:59:16
subject: <b>Downside</b>
body:
While Rand does recieve the gifts of a warder, he's also gotta take the bad. Consider, Alanna's life is now as important as Rand's in winning the last battle, if she dies, so will he as a result of the bond. Unless it works differently since he can channel, or since he now has other bonds to keep him alive. Alive and rolling in warder gifts, i suppose.


created: 2001-12-08 12:53:21
subject: <b>Alanna</b>
body:
I don't mind Alanna as a person, but it does seem as violating as rape to have bonded a man against his will, good intentions or no.  Now Rand is stuck with someone he doesn't want in his head.  It is the ultimate violation, I think.  Alanna should have let him go in Far Madding.  He has 3 other bonds, which give him the same protection, but not the violation because it was with his consent.  The second he said he wanted to be released, she should have let him go.  If not then, than when he said he had another bond that he had consented to.  All of the benefits Alanna could have justified herself with are now voided by the other bonds.  In theory, there is little that sets her apart from his Aes Sedai captors in Lord of Chaos.  I think Elayne should have her birched.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> tsorovan'mais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> storm maiden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> commander of the lightnings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />keeper of the many series<br />one who take titles too seriously<br />If I balefire it, will it die?<br />                   --the question of the universe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 18:41:30
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
First of all, Andrew, Warders do NOT die if their Aes Sedai dies.  The reason the Warder mortality rate is so high is that they are killed trying to avenge their Aes Sedai and willingly walk into situations they cannot possibly win.  And who knows if Rand will even feel much of anything if Alanna dies, concidering he has so many other bonds...if anything, I think he'd be relieved to get rid of one of the damned people in his head.<br /><br />And Elder, Rand only opened himself because he thought that all she was going to do was Heal him.  The last thing he expected was to be Bound...and if you remember, he was outraged.  He couldn't resist because he had no opportunity, by the time he realized something was wrong, he was already her Warder.  And I don't see what Verin compelling has to do with anything.  The only thing close to that is when Verin gets angry at Alanna right after Rand shields and binds them with air for not compelling him.  Alanna then protests that she tried but it was &quot;like trying to uproot an oak tree with her bare hands,&quot; which greatly surprises Verin.  So I don't think that compelling has anything to do with this situation, or whether or not the victim uses the power (i.e. Moghedien compelling Liandrin, Nyn, ect. ect.).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 19:45:19
subject:
<b>Leave It to Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I'm looking forward to Aviendha getting a hold of Alanna and having a &quot;talk&quot; with her. Heh heh... she'll wished she had been birched instead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Heh, Heh... Aiel are cool! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 15:52:40
subject: <b>Poor Alanna...</b>
body:
I think she suffered enough, dont you?  I mean, Alanna, being a green, needs a man to be around... and he avoids her at all cost for days,weeks on end.  She suffers so much, because of the Bond with his wound that never heals. (remember when the girls bond him and they are amazed at how much pain he has (WH)) Shes not the cool cucumber she use to be before the bonding!  Even though what she did was wrong, I feel that we will need Alanna soon to help him.


created: 2001-04-09 00:00:00
subject: <b>Multiple bonding</b>
body:
If Aes Sedai can bond with more than one Warder, why can't Warders bond with more than one Aes Sedai? Then Rand could bond with Elayne as well as Alanna


created: 2001-06-28 09:16:27
subject: <b>Passing the bond</b>
body:
Alanna could also pass the bond to another Aes Sedai, which would cause no harm to anyone<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 21:28:42
subject: <b>Siuan's warder</b>
body:
Alric?  Siuan's warder?  He died when Siuan was stilled, or so I gathered.  Not a promising option for Rand.  <br /><br />Besides, Alanna has a little crush on Rand.  We've all had things for older women a one time or another. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-09 02:22:32
subject: <b>Well, after Book 9....</b>
body:
Rand would still be bonded to someone (three someones) if/when his bond with Alanna is broken.<br /><br />So maybe he wouldn't suffer that 'withdrawal' (for lack of a better word) and wouldn't go insane/like Lan.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-10-20 15:49:34
subject: <b>Sounds Good</b>
body:
I agree that Alanna needs slapped around a little bit, but we need to think what severing the bond could do to Rand.  It is a question whether or not anything would happen because Rand isn't your typical warder as we have seen in the past.


created: 2001-12-07 22:12:18
subject: <b>Alric.....</b>
body:
.....died before Siuan was stilled.  He had a freakin knife in his back!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  stupid thoeries make baby Jesus cry  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 13:27:31
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
Good point LucasMarcus, Alric died because Gawyn killed him, not because Siuane was stilled, plus i don't think that Rand would go into depression over Alanna being stilled, I mean think about it, most warders are very protective over their Aes Sedai, but Rand doesn't really much care for Alanna, and I may be wrong here but since Rand channels too maybe he's not like a warder but more like an equal, but I may very well be wrong, i've only read 7 of the books.<br /><br />The One.....<br />The Only.....<br />Incredibly Sexy.....<br />Garrett Crank <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-09-22 11:07:05
subject: <b>Besides</b>
body:
if nyn healed her again the bond thingie will come back sorta, just when siuan was de-stilled and she had to cry all day cuz alric was dead<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">.~*Steeffie*~.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-16 17:59:53
subject: <b>Siuan's Warder</b>
body:
If you recall, Alric was assassinated (murdered, whatever).  He did not die from Siuan's stilling.  Now, there are other warders who have died because of their bonds being broken, or just went mad.  See Dumai Wells.<br /><br />Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-20 20:24:07
subject: <b>releasing a warder</b>
body:
I'm just thinking that perhaps a warder can be released from a bond without his aes sedai passing it on.<br /><br />&quot;Nynaeve had laced bridal flowers in his hair. Would he still find himself able to court death so blithely? Moiraine wondered when he would ask her to release him from his bond&quot; (Watchers (TGH) p. 326)<br /><br />I also seem to remember Elyas saying that most sisters would release a warder if he really wanted to go.....so I'm thinking Alanna could release Rand, especially since Elayne and Avhienda are kind of already bonded to Rand as it is.


created: 2003-10-29 18:05:22
subject: <b>Rand wouldn't sever Alanna</b>
body:
Rand is unwilling to kill or hurt women (exept maybe for those who held him captive in LoC) so I don't think that's what he would do. It would be especially stupid since he could have her release him (Lan has said it is possible).<br /><br />One objection to your theory: A warder doesn't always die when his Aed Sedai does (I suppose Lan is a bad example in this context, but I seem to recall others of Myrelles warders were bonded to Aes Sedai that have died for real)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-20 21:01:40
subject: <b>Will Power!</b>
body:
It seems to me Moiraine told Lan that he would be compelled to find Myrelle when she died.  That the Bond involved a form of Compulsion used back in the old days when Bonding wasn't always willing.  Alanna tells Verin that trying to compel Rand is like pulling up an oak barehanded, but maybe Logain's Warders aren't that strong-willed.  We do know he (Logain)has strong will to hold off the Taint for so long.


created: 2001-06-01 12:27:31
subject: <b>Compelled by the bond.</b>
body:
I think that there is a distinction to be made between the sort of obedience that Logain forces upon Gabrelle and Toveine through the Asha'man form of bonding, and Lan being 'compelled' to seek out Myrelle when he senses Moiraine's bond pass.<br /><br />It seems that in the Black Tower situation, Toveine is completely unable to disobey Logain, a direct power of his bond on her. She can't even bring herself to walk near Elayne's inspection visit entourage, hoping for her ability to be sensed, because Logain told her to let noone learn she was Aes Sedai.<br /><br />In Lan's case, it seems more a situation of need. He fully expects to die, but there is still a part of him that wants to live, and that part of him knows that he must go to Myrelle for any chance of surviving.<br /><br />As for why Alanna couldn't force her will on Rand through the bond, I speculate that whoever has the greater strength in the Power will have the controlling ability.<br /><br />As a side note, it seems that Cadsuane might actually have wanted Rand's bond passed to her, until she learned he couldn't be controlled through it. While I believe her when she says that everything she does is for his own good, she definitely has a unique way of doing things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 14:13:12
subject: <b>Rand Doesn't need Callandor</b>
body:
he has the best Sa'Angreal ever (and I won't try to spell it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 12:14:27
subject: <b>About the whole compulsion thing</b>
body:
Well, I think that its the nature of the bonds. When the male does the bonding, it has the effect that the recipient must do what the giver wants, while in the female bonding someone, that is not present. All she can do compell someone to do something. It just comes back to the nature of saidin and saidar. They use different techniques to do the same thing, and they don't always have the same results. A female has to submit to saidar, and a male has to fight saidin. I can't think of any more examples off the top of my head, but I think you catch the drift. Thats my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Doug<br /><br /> I'd be crotchety, but I'm too pissed off.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 16:01:28
subject: <b>The Asha'man and Aes Sedai bonds are different</b>
body:
When Canler created the bond, he had no way of knowing how Aes Sedai did it.  He simply made it up, possibly inspired by the existance of the Warder bond, but there is nothing to say it's even done the same way.  I doubt the Asha'man, facing madness and death in the near future would have bonded their wives if they believe the survival rate to be as low as it is for Warders. Elayne used a standard bond on Rand, and in FoH, it says she learned the bond by spying on another sister.  Rand mentions that, in the same place, Min and Alanna were equally strongly felt through the bonds, so his bond (note that it's always refered to as singular in WH) with his girlfriends obviously is not diminished by being held by multiple women.  Yet in spite of this, Jur Grady can feel his wife missing him and her knee hurting from the Black Tower near Caemlyn when he is all the way in Ghealdan, while Elayne can't even tell anything about Rand when he is as close as Far Madding.  Far Madding is much closer to Caemlyn than the BT is to Ghealdan.  Finally the Glossary of the last two books says a VARIANT of the Asha'man bond, &quot;altered to compel obediance, has been used to bond captive Aes Sedai.&quot;  They like can't give their wives orders the way they do Aes Sedai.  Note that Toveine is unable to disobey even a casual recommendation that she should eat.  The wives would have mentioned something if they found themselves having to obey their husbands' slightest statement, and it's unlikely many more would have submitted to it.  Love or no love, I have a hard time seeing Rand submitting to any bond if blind helpless obedience goes with it, or Elayne and company allowing him to bond them in the same way, not that they even know abou it. Rand felt what he thought was a sheild after Alanna bonded him, yet he felt no compulsion to obey.  Rather than a strong will, this indicates that it is his ability to channel that protects him from being compelled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 01:32:31
subject: <b>Compulsion and Men who can channel</b>
body:
Speaking of compulsion when he visits Graendal, Sammael thinks,<br />&quot;She used compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could weild the weaker forms of it with great delicacy.......In fact, she might be the best at that who ever lived.<br />He let the gatewaly vanish but held on to saidin; those tricks did not work on a man who could channel.&quot;<br />The reason Alanna could not compel Rand was because she made him so angry he reached to the source to defend himself. Just because she now believes he cannot be compelled at all is her problem. And I hope she never tries again when he is not holding saidin.


created: 2001-06-27 14:30:38
subject: <b>WH Spoiler</b>
body:
Well now we know two people can bond the same person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-08 12:56:01
subject: <b>Wait a minute!</b>
body:
How long ago was this posted?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> tsorovan'mais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> storm maiden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> commander of the lightnings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />keeper of the many series<br />one who take titles too seriously<br />If I balefire it, will it die?<br />                   --the question of the universe</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-26 22:41:52
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
Egeanin &amp; Domon handed the bonds over to Suroth, in Winter's Heart, I believe. With the conclusion of Crossroads of Twilight, I'm curious to see whether they'll resurface in the near future.


created: 2001-08-20 06:50:27
subject: <b>Re: Re: Rand and Bonds</b>
body:
Well the winters Heart has shown that a person can be bonded by more than one person. The idea that they can't was probably a taboo which was why mat was asked if he had been bonded yet at salida.


created: 2001-10-25 16:38:12
subject: <b>Funny...</b>
body:
It's funny to see how a theory that have been proven wrong, shows out to be correct. =p<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 16:39:09
subject: <b>Funny...</b>
body:
It's funny to see how a theory that have been proven wrong, shows out to be correct. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 16:09:46
subject: <b>SHAME</b>
body:
A POX ON YOU WHO WROTE THESE THEORIES!!!!<br />YOU DARE CALL YOURSELVES WOT READERS? 1/24/01?!?!?! YOU LET WINTER'S HEART SIT UNREAD FOR 78 DAYS? I bought the book right after I voted, the polls opening before the bookstore at which it was reserved, and foolishly thought I would know our next president's name by the time it was done.  I would assume that anyone who follows the series enough to post theories here would be able to read a single book, disgusting short and large printed compared to LoC, in less time than it took to straighten out that mess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 12:38:52
subject: <b>haha</b>
body:
pox! anyway, this was a pretty bad theory, in the way that it is obviously not true. and if you still think it is then you oughta go dig yourself a very deep hole and stay there till the end of time! hehe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-24 16:36:31
subject: <b>Yes, isn't this theory a moot point?</b>
body:
I mean, what self-loving, WoT-obsessed, ravening madman doesn't read the entire book the first day it comes out? You think I'm joking? I am not joking!! No touchie.. no touchie..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Shameless Chatroom Flirt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Warderette to Dodem <br />Aes Sedai to Jarrod<br />Alexia is my Cowgirl on shining mower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-14 14:11:08
subject: <b>one hole</b>
body:
One hole in your theory is that Rand IS bonded by more than one Aes Sedai.  He is bonded by Alanna.  He is also triple-bonded by Elayne, Avendha, and Min.  This is more than one bond.


created: 2001-06-01 12:47:00
subject: <b>Lan's bond</b>
body:
Moiraine arranged for Lan's bond to shift to Myrelle upon her death, and for Myrelle to pass the bond to Nynaeve once he's healthy enough. Remember when she's discovered by Egwene, Myrelle does a lot of fast talking, and says that she was working hard to prepare Nynaeve to receive his bond. Is this to say that Lan would suffer again when Myrelle transferred the bond to Nynaeve?<br /><br />The overall problem I am struggling with is this. When the Warder bond is first discussed in the series, Lan says that he would know the moment and form of Moiraine's death, and she his, through the bond. But when Moiraine disappears into Eelfinn land, Lan's words are; &quot;She's gone. I can't feel her any longer.&quot; That most definitely doesn't sound like a pronouncement of death. <br /><br />If the bond was severed by losing the ter'angreal that connects the two realities, then there's the issue of that bond being restored when Moiraine returns. (Not the big problem it would have been thought when everyone believed that two Aes Sedai couldn't bond one warder. We now know that it can be done)<br /><br />If Moiraine managed to release the bond, allowing it to transfer to Myrelle, why should Lan be suffering as though the bond was broken by a death?<br /><br />If Moiraine really did die, she will be the first non-forsaken to be resuscitated in the series. But what agent of the Light will perform this resurrection? The Creator doesn't take a hand.<br /><br />I just wonder why Lan went into the near-zombie state if there was no real lack of a bond, but simply a passing of one holder to another. Especially if he didn't feel the pain of Moiraine dying. I suppose I just have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 12:29:24
subject: <b>Why not ?</b>
body:
I'm sure everybody will agree that one Aes Sedai can bond<br />to more then one Warder, but as we've also seen thanks to Logan it can go the other way as well. If I remember right <br />when Logan bonded a captured Aes Sedai somebody else was <br />overheard saying something along the line of 'another one?'<br />So it would only make sense that two Aes Sadais could bond<br />the same Warder.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-26 21:36:37
subject: <b>Well, in WH...</b>
body:
Rand is bonded again (I won't reveal by whom, so this is only a tease and not a spoiler), and that Aes Sedai says that &quot;Aes Sedai don't bond the same Warder only because of CUSTOM, not because it's impossible&quot;.<br /><br />So it seems it can be done.<br />And Moiraine's was passed (see above Blackboard post). When Nynaeve receives Lan's bond, it is for all intents and purposes THE SAME BOND that he shared with Moiraine, not a second one.


created: 2002-06-08 14:10:25
subject: <b>This is not even a question</b>
body:
<br />First, let me say, though I am a long time fan of WOT this is my first post on this web site.  No Congratualtions are<br />necessary.  <br /><br />Now for this question regarding the two bonds.  First if I am not mistaken Aviendha and Elayne both have bonded <br />Rand as well as Alanna.  So a warder can be bonded more than once.  <br /><br />Secondly, Moraine, which most believe is still alive, is in a peculiar world and many interesting things may have<br />happened to her.  There may be ways to sever a bond or release it.<br /><br />For example we aren't quite sure what happens to a severed Aes Sedai.  Does that sever the bond?  We know<br />that Siuan felt the loss of the bond, but would it still be there if her warder was still alive.<br /><br />The concern really isn't valid.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Maus<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-06-29 16:53:04
subject: <b>not exactly</b>
body:
First in WH Logains AS can feel him sleeping with the other one as well as his feelings the next morning. Second Aes Sedai are able to compel their warders, but rarely do so.  However it may be that a male(channeler) to female(channeler) reaction is stronger than a female(channeler) to male(non-channeler) reaction.  Alanna(channeler) knowing who she had on her leash(Rand) was quite willing ot attempt some pressure using the bond.  However it didn't work and at first she thought it was because he was tavern but perhaps it is also likely becasue he is a male channeler.  Now take into account that male channelers are singularly stronger than female channelers on average and you can see that if the relationship were the other way around a female channeler would have no way to fight her bond and as we can see in WH perhaps it is a more potent compulsion.  I wonder what would happen if Logian bonded to many Aes Sedai would they then be able to resist him as a group much like they would if they were linked.  The same for Rand can his four women togeather use their bonds on him to compel him.  I think this is an interesting idea.  But then all of this could just have ot do with being tavern since Rand is my only proof.  WE definitly need some time in the heads of the new Aes Sedai and their Ashaman Warders.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 16:11:21
subject: <b>Other People's Point of View</b>
body:
While we're on this subject I'm hoping to see more from Thom and Lan... Both of them are fairly important (for &quot;minor&quot; characters) and have been around since the beginning, yet we've had maybe half a chapter of Thom's PoV and nothing at all of Lan's (unless we count New Spring). <br /><br />Of course I'm entirely unbiased by the fact that they're both among my favorite characters <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />scaledun


created: 2001-11-07 17:25:51
subject: <b>Others Views</b>
body:
I would love to see the POV's of some of the other characters, especially Logain, Thom and Lan.  But Lan isn't likely, because if we get into his head, then he becomes much more approachable, and his character is intended for keeping others at bay.  But Thom and Logain POVs would be great.<br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-16 14:50:26
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
i think logain has actually bonded his sisters, as have the others.<br />Reasons:  None of the descriptions of compulsion have mentioned anything about being able to feel anothor person inside your head.  Compulsion appears to be a one time thing.  On a small scale, you decide what you want them to do, and compel them to do it.(ie.  Mog. on Ny and El)  On the larger, you just wipe out their mind so they are totally submissive. (ie.  Graendal on all of her servants)<br /><br />The more compulsion you use, the more damaging it is to the mind.  If Logain had compelled them, and still was you would think there would be some damage apparent.  <br /><br />Toveine's POV states that she is bonded: &quot;Logains filthy bond...&quot; WHpg57<br /><br />There are also varying degrees of obedience in bonds.  Most warders appear to obey their sisters which seems to be something to do with the weaves.  I can't remember exactly but Elayne said something about not bonding Brigette properly.  Bonding in itself might have elements of compulsion in it, but the shared headspace appears to be absoutly unique to it.


created: 2002-05-08 04:04:22
subject: <b>but...</b>
body:
I disagree with this theory because the Aes Sedei that were bonded seem to resent the bond.  If they were in love with logain or under compulsion the would not look for ways out of their perdicament, they would simply do as they were told.  Logain's bond may have included some elements of compulsion, but it is definately a bond.


created: 2003-10-29 18:12:20
subject: <b>My turn to speak</b>
body:
I think it was in PoD. Perrin talks to an Asha'Man and he says that they have something akin to warder bonds that they use on their wives. He then says there's an alternate form that they're using on captives. He even tells us the name of the guy who came up with it (I just don't remember it).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-07 16:27:49
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
Look when Elayne and Rand uh do what they did, birgitte, min, and avienda all notice it the toveine notices what Logain does.  Compulsion doesn't work that way.


created: 2007-02-07 16:28:18
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
Look when Elayne and Rand uh do what they did, Birgitte, Min, and Avienda all notice it the toveine notices what Logain does.  Compulsion doesn't work that way.


created: 2001-10-26 00:55:06
subject: <b>something i was wondering . . .</b>
body:
i think i agree. i do know you've given me food for thought. but there's something else i've been wondering . . .<br />it's about green sisters and their warders. as an example we have: aes sedai (as), warder 1(w1) and <br />warder 2 (w2). say w1 gets hurt. as feels the injury, right? and don't aes sedai feel the injuries of their<br />warders? do if w1 gets hurt and as feels it, does w2 then feel it through as? help me out here . . .<br /><br />kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 16:14:12
subject: <b>re. Warder 1 and Warder 2</b>
body:
Warder 2 should't be able to feel the pain if Warder 1 gets hust.  They are two seperate bonds, so there are probably 2 seperate spots in the AS head.  I don't think those spots are conected to each other.  I would think that Warder 2 might have an awareness that something has happened to Warder 1 if the AS had a sense of alarm in her head, but the actual pain itself should just stay in the Warder 1 mindspot.


created: 2002-06-21 20:41:18
subject: <b>bah</b>
body:
Philotic theory and all is nice but I don't think this is where rj is getting his idea of the way spirit works from; however it may be the basis for the pattern itself. If you recall from orson scott card's theory on philotics everybody makes philotic connections with everyone around them and depending upon your specific relationship to a given person it is either stronger or weaker. I believe this type of relationship is what sparked rj's idea for a web or pattern that could be influenced by the people who make up the web themselves, drawing primarily from the scene where ender's stepson whips a mob of people into a frenzy over the death of his brother at the hands of the piggies and then loses control over the mob when he tries to direct them toword a specific group of piggies who were responsible instead of toword the entire race (ender's stepson was ta'veren for a short while and then loses his ta'veren status and control of the mob). If you are interested where all this is coming from read the ender series from orson scott card, however philotics really aren't gotten into until you get to xenocide and children of the mind.<br /><br />Also your theory on the creation of bonds having to include the channeler themselves is incorrect based upon evidence from wot itself. Bain and Chiad were made first sisters in ceremony performed by wise ones, a ceremony similar to the ceremony where we witness aviendha and elyane become first sisters, neither of whom actually channels durring the experience. also the bond between rand and min is only between them, no one else, and neither of them channeled the bond into being.<br /><br />All in all an interesting theory, but one that takes liberties and requires you to ignore facts that pertain to the bonds themselves. Ofcourse it is possible that in the future rj will decide that this is the way that he'll want to go, however he'll have to come up with ways to explain these inconsistancies away.<br /><br />On the wolf brother bond, I believe that it has more to do with t'a'r than with philotics or power wroght bonds, none of the bonds with the one power allows the people to broadcast thoughts, only base emotional feelings and physical feelings.


created: 2001-09-17 12:32:11
subject: <b>We will see now</b>
body:
Now that saidin is cleansed we will see if the taint has anything to do with warders and their abilities at all. If it has the warders will probably have some troubles now ;-)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Komorok <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 13:43:48
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Saidar was used to channel the taint of Saidin into Shadar Logoth, therefor, how the hell the could it be the taint? &gt;.&lt; MORON!<br /><br />(Brian)<br /><br />Saidar was used as a buffer against the taint as the taint was only on Saidar and they can't intermingle.


created: 2002-04-23 14:01:43
subject: <b>Also,,,,</b>
body:
If warders can sense Saidar in shadowsapwn what is to stop Aes Sedai sensing the taint on saidin and consequently being able to sense a man channeling.


created: 2001-06-25 14:57:28
subject: <b>Mat as a Warder</b>
body:
Even though Mat probably isn't Aemon, I think you can't discount that possibility just becasue he hates Aes Sedai and Warders. He seems to be a character that says one thing, but doesn't always mean it. Look at him and the whole situation with Tylin. The entire time he's being trapped by her, he complains and tries to hide, but when it come time to leave, he admits he's going to miss her. Also, he still talks to Nynaeve and Egwene and Elayne, which wouldn't make sense if he *really* hates Aes Sedai as much as he says.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kory- you will be missed.<br /><br />All Hail BUH, lord of the JellyBellys!<br /><br /><font color="red">&quot;Proud member of the OCWIATJ!&quot;</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 05:05:59
subject: <b>Another Point-of-view</b>
body:
You guys have it almost right. Here's what you're missing:<br />1:Mat has to be Aemon. Reason: no soldier would sound the King's battle cry. Only the King can do that(have we learned nothing from Terry Brooks' THE ELFSTONES OF SHANNARA?), so Mat has to be him.<br />2: Mat is a HERO OF THE HORN! NOT MAT CAUTHON! Just because he is Mat Cauthon means nothing. The fact that his soul is that of A REBORN HERO is the important thing. In one of the books, Birgitte explains to Nynaeve that she is only aware that she is Birgitte when she is waiting to be spun out by the Wheel, that she never realizes that she is Birgette, just a reborn hero. The Birgitte part comes from the legends of her past lives. So whereas Mat knows that he is a hero, he does'nt know which one. Will he find out before the end? <br />3: Heroes can and are reborn more than once every age. This is your slap-me-in-the-face answer to why Mat (as Aemon)could have been married to an Aes Sedai, and still hate Aes Sedai(the meat comment): Mat was a general for Hawkwing. We all know how much Hawkwing hated Aes Sedai at the end of his life. The time when he was being healed, he was remembering that life, not his life as Aemon. <br />I also have two sidenotes:<br />4: Mat cannot be Hawkwing. The reason for this was that Hawkwing appeared when Mat blew the Horn. How could his soul be in two places at once? Is the Dragon's soul not bound to the Wheel? It obviously is. Why was the Dragon's soul not summoned when Mat blew the horn? It was already spun out by the horn, as was &quot;Mat&quot;s. Mat is not Hawkwing.<br />5: Olver as Gaidal Cain? IMMPOSSIBLE. Reason? Gaidal Cain's soul was with the rest of the heroes' at Falme. Since he has been spun out since then, he would be less than two years old now (When Rand meets Taim in Lord of Chaos, he thinks to himself that he has held off madness for just over two years). Olver is older than 10.<br />Can anybody find any holes in that? If they can, please respond because I would like to retool what's wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 23:01:38
subject: <b>Olver/time paradox</b>
body:
I think Gaidal Cain was spun out of T'a'r because of Birgitte being removed forcibly by Moghedien. Didn't Birgitte say something about he is always born before me? He may have been forced into Olver's body to compensate for this. Of course, all the weight of Gaidalver is about even wih Taimandred at this point....(look for a Theory on this soon).<br /><br />LTT<br />


created: 2001-10-27 05:40:43
subject: <b>birgitte</b>
body:
will birgitte feel the call of the horn now that she has been &quot;ripped away&quot;? will any of the heros that are reborn feel it? please drive logging trucks thru any plot holes, and try to avoid pot holes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 09:44:09
subject: <b>Mat was Souran as well as Aemon...</b>
body:
First things first: I believe that there is too much evidence for Mat as Aemon to say he's not.  Mat does seem subconciously polite to Aes Sedai - if he didn't want to free the three Aes Sedai from Seanchan clutches, then he wouldn't do it.  I also seem to remember him saying &quot;Here is always a welcome for Aes Sedai&quot; or something to that effect in the Old Tongue.  Please correct me if I'm wrong about this - it might have been Agelmar or someone totally different.  Anyway, Mat seems to be a conflicting character in his memories, sometimes sentimental to and even knowlegable about Aes Sedai.  His other side: rudeness to channelers, fear of them (the whole phase he goes through in the Stone and the Waste where he tries to decide if he should still be Rand's friend is a wonderful example of this.)  The &quot;Warders are fools&quot; and &quot;I am no Aes Sedai meat&quot; quotes are also examples of this state of mind.<br /><br />He got the more accepting side from Aemon...so where did he get his Aes Sedai hating side?<br /><br />...FROM SOURAN!!!! You know, Hawkwing's best general...<br /><br />Why Mat was Souran:<br /><br />a) Mat rememebers being one of Hawkwing's generals, even if he doesn't specify.<br /><br />b)Parallels from past to present, such as:<br /><br />-fear and dislike of Aes Sedai<br /><br />-Souran was a commoner who became Hawkwing's general - hmmmm now doesn't this sound a lot like &quot;Mat was a commoner who became Rand's general&quot;<br /><br />-had an overbearing wife (I had to add this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />) Hey, I mean, Tuon already attacked him! <br /><br />c)He went so far as to lay siege on the White Tower<br /><br />I refuse to believe that Mat hates Aes Sedai so much only because no one in the Two Rivers likes them - even if Abell Cauthon is especially wary.  No one in the Two Rivers cares much or knows so much about Aes Sedai that would make Mat so afraid of them manipulating him.<br /><br />P.S. I think Mat is so untrustworthy because Aridhol and Mordeth betrayed him at the fall of Manetheren.  They said they'd give Aemon reinforcements after he fought for three days...ten days later...  This seems like a good explanation for why Mat is just generally suspicious.<br /><br />Wow, that turned out pretty long.<br />Sorry about that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 17:17:34
subject: <b>Birgitte, Olver, and the Horn</b>
body:
I think Birgitte is still bound to the Horn for one simple reason, plus a couple of off-shots.  The main reason is that Mog was part of the Wheel.  Birg was part of the Wheel and what happens to those within the power of the Wheel is NOT BY CHANCE.  DO rips her out-she's gone.  A Forsaken does it and it may be foreordained.  As an off-shoot, Mog never claimed to have ripped her away from the Wheel or the Horn or whatever, only to make her weep forever-ie separate her from Gaidal Cain.  Also as an off-shoot, MOg expresses extreme terror when in the vacuole.  She thinks that she never really got into that sort of thing in the AoL.  <br />As for Gaidal, he (and Birg) are constantly described as common soldiers (Birg's claim in WH that she never lead troops in her existence).  Who is raising the little kid?  Mat's army and personal guard-ie soldiers.  Who does he follow around and imitate?  Mat, a soldier-general by memory.  <br />Finally, I believe RJ has said that there are no beginnigs or endings to the Wheel of Time.  Who says the adventures of Olver are limited to those before the Last Battle?<br />To finish for sure with this, for those that say that Olver is too old, I simply say, check the timeline against the significant events in Olver's life.  After TGH, Olver's family starts dying rapidly from famine, brigands and sickness-forcing the kid into the great wide world without a family-how does that strike you as a start to a legendary adventure?


created: 2002-09-20 12:04:16
subject: <b>Mat is not Aemon!</b>
body:
But he has Aemon's memories (at least some of them), as well as memories from many other persons (mostly generals and such). According to himself the memories span approximately from the beginning of the trolloc-wars to the rise of Arthur Hawkwing. I even think he remembers fighting against Arthur Hawkwing in one of his memories. While I will not speculate on how all these person's memories have gotten into him (although it must have had something to do with the Shadar Logoth dagger), just let me remind you of this: The memories come from many different people, and I don't know if even Mat himself know how many.<br /><br /><br />As for the Olver-Gaidal Cain theory, I don't see any problem with Gaidal being reborn into someone who is already grown to some extent.


created: 2002-10-21 05:25:50
subject: <b>Mat's not Aemon</b>
body:
I'd like to point out two things:<br />1) Mat is never described as a king, just as a lord who is a very capable general and advisor to the king<br />2) Warcries of a king are generally also used by his bodyguard. The whole purpose is to let everybody <br />know where the leader is during a battle and one man could never make enough noise. The fact that Mat <br />knows a kings warcry does not mean that he is a king, merely an elite warrior.


created: 2002-11-04 17:50:25
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Theres also the fact that Mat's memories were, shall we say &quot;helped out&quot; by the the doorway in the waste?  They could account for conflicted memories, etc.<br /><br />Also, Gaidal didn't leave Telaranrhiod when Birgitte left, he left a while before her in the World of Dreams, and time there is different then in the real world.  Who knows how long he was gone?  And who is there to say (besides RJ) that a hero cannot be alive and called to horn at the same time?


created: 2002-11-28 00:13:35
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
I think your idea about Olver attaching himself to Mat because Mat is the Hornsounder is really good. I think your right.I don't think Mat is really any specific hero reborn, that doorway just gave him memories of generals. Like if someone is the fourth age got the memories of Bashere, or Pedron Niall or Gareth Bryne, you know? Just a thought.


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Wolfbrother finder of the song.</b>
body:
I think Perrin will find the song. I don't have any clue how or when. The reason I believe this is because of one of Egwene's "dreams". In one of her dreams she see Perrin with trees sprouting up around him. I may be wrong. Maybe he just happens to be there when some else finds the song and thats why Egwen sees him there.<br />Well thats my theory.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Tinker's Song</b>
body:
I agree that Aram seems the most likely to find the song, it would add yet another cool twist to the story. But I'm wondering, would the Tinkers even accept it if he showed it to them, since he basically doesn't exist to them anymore?  It would definitely take some changing of tradition on the part of the Tinkers.  They would have to accept Aram's way of life in order to accept the discovery of the song.  Would that mean that they would <br />abandon the Way of the Leaf and maybe join the Aiel?  Maybe the song will be some sort of command from the Aes Sedai that they served so long ago, like, "Fight against the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don."  Maybe the song itself will be a weapon against the Dark One.  Wouldn't that be cool!  They wouldn't even have to abandon the Way, they could just stand and sing, and destroy evil that way.  <p>Just my two cents <img src="images/blush.gif" /></p><p>In the name of love, <br />Arien<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I thought the point of the visions that Rand saw in Ruidean was that the tinkers were just as much if not more in violation to the oath that the first aiel took than the present aiel are.  They abandoned their oath to find a safe place for the stuff to persue the song.  Personally I do not think that there is a song to find.  I think that somehow they will come to realize this and that will be the foundation for reuniting with the aiel.<br />


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>One Half of one third of the song is left.</b>
body:
Well if they were to talk to an Aiel Clan chief or to Rand Al'Thor then they'd realize that they don spent damn near 3 thousand years as the butt of the biggest joke on the planet.<p>   Recall Rand in the Glass Columns of Ages Gone Past. He had a vision of The Da'shain Aiel singing for the trees and with them were some Nym and some Ogier.</p><p>   See there are no more Nym left, only Ogier and that's it. There are no more Da'Shain Aiel. The Goose Chaser Folk denied their heritage and are not Aiel any more. Even if they all threw down the spears en mass the Aiel would never be Da'Shain again. They see singing except for a battle or funeral as wrong.</p><p>   The Ogier can't sing the song anymore, not the one they did with the Da'Shain and the Nym. They have been altered by the longing. They are not the same Ogier the world used to know.</p><p>   Dig it yo if they ever figure out what the song was then they'll figure out they devoted 3 thousand years to searching for a song or set of songs that can never be sung again. </p><p>   I think it would be very fitting if Aram discovered that the song requires two different races to reunite and give up traditions on both sides, The Ogier to be cured of the longing forever (hell you thought the Taint was hard to alter), and for the Nym to be recreated.</p><p>   I can imagine Aram finding out about this and deciding that he still loves his people enough not to tell them. He'd realize that it'd break them worse than the Aiel were when they found out that they'd followed and lost the way of the leaf. They left their brothers and sisters, they abandoned all they ever loved, all for a song that they can't sing anyway. I think Aram would let his former kin fok go on looking forever because he couldn't bear to break his grandmothers heart any further than this. He would decide not let them know that they were devoted to a lie.</p><p>   By the way am I the only one who finds Aram attractive?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>oooh! the song is a good thing!</b>
body:
I think the song will make the DO sob and sob and sob and while he's doing so, Rand will walk up to the dude and stick a sword in his craw!  *btw, wtf is a craw anyways?*


created: 2001-06-06 14:46:09
subject: <b>The Aiel</b>
body:
I think that the Aiel will reveal the song.  Since they used to be part of the Dai'shain Aiel, maybe one of them will find it in Rhuidean.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> KEEPER OF THE LOGS<br />


created: 2001-08-14 23:03:58
subject: <b>Loial Doo Wops it out</b>
body:
I think Loial/with Perrin in tow/ will find the remnant of the song.  Jordan makes much of the Ogier's ability to treesing.  I think that Loial will find it in some ancient tome, a record of the singing or some such thing. I don't believe it will be as potent as it once was, what with the death of the nym, but the Da'shain Aiel were also a part of the singing, so perhaps Loial and Perrin and some Aiel or Tinkers can travel to the site of the Green Man's death and sing the song to his tree to bring forth a new Nym or something.  Or maybe not.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-23 00:21:59
subject: <b>Yes and No</b>
body:
I like that Aram will find it.<br /><br />However, the Aiel and Tinkers coming together?  Wouldn't the Aiel feel that they owe the Tinkers toh or something?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 02:07:25
subject: <b>Aram... And Min</b>
body:
Aram may not be the right choice for the finder of the song.  If I recall correctly, Min, or possibly Egwene, has a vision of great forboding in regards to Aram.


created: 2002-01-10 00:06:44
subject: <b>Song is more than a reuniting force</b>
body:
Hey, didn't the old Aiel help the Aes Sedai of that age in channeling.  I seem to remember this being mentioned. The Ogier the Aiel and the Channelers all together could do work that none could do alone.  Something they need to try now, I'd say.


created: 2002-01-11 02:31:04
subject: <b>Tinker/Aiel/Ogier connection</b>
body:
1. The Tinkers and the Aiel are descended from the same people.<br />2. These people worked with the Ogier singing the tree-songs.<br />3. The song is now lost, but the tinkers follow the 'way of the leaf' and the aiel 'dance the spears', usually to music. <br />4.Loial is a talented Tree singer.<br />5. Aram is an outcast from both groups because he carries a sword.<br />6. The Eelfinn and Aelfinn answer questions/grant wishes.<br />So send Aram through the Aelfinn ter'angreal (as the Eelfinn one is destroyed) and he can ask how to find the song and who has to sing it.<br />


created: 2002-02-06 19:45:55
subject: <b>An old clue</b>
body:
I think that a clue to the song is found as early as the prologue of EotW when Lews Therin asks Ishamael if he has the Voice and wishes to join the Singing, as in his House everyone can.<br /><br />So far, he's the only AOL character linked to Singing to be still around (sort of).  IMO, this is linked to something as yet unrevealed about LTT's past prior to the War.<br /><br />Whoever puzzle it out and decide to ask Rand about it, the teaching about the song and perhaps even about the making of the Nym could come from LTT after TG.<br /><br />I think that Aram, Perrin and Loial could well be involved, but for that they will have to learn first about the Tinkers' past. As of now, I think the Tinkers have no clue as to the role of the Song they're looking for, and neither them nor the Aiel seem to know what was exactly their purpose and importance as servants of the AS. For that matter, I think the AS also forgot what was the role of their servants - after the Breaking it was not possible to ensure they safety and they sent them away, but they ultimately forgot why it was important to preserve them. <br /><br />But somehow I'm convinced their service to the AS and their following of the Way of the Leaf played a much more major part in the structure or balance of the AOL than simply singing crops and even more than the Song, this is what has to be puzzled out.  I think it's quite possibly the role the remnant of the remnant of the Aiel has to play in the end and what the Dragon will destroy is not the people itself but the way of life of both Tinkers and Aiel since the breaking. I think the bleakness is the first step toward this, but the purpose of this way of life still has to be found again. Meanwhile, the ranks of the Aiel and Tinkers will decrease greatly.


created: 2002-03-12 02:11:50
subject: <b>I Think it's already known</b>
body:
Rand and all Aeil clan chiefs experienced singing the seed song in the Rhuidiean ter'angreal, if i don't miss my guess, I'd say this is the fabled song probably given to the &quot;aiel&quot; from the Jenn in spite of the quest of the first lost ones...just a thought<br />


created: 2002-03-22 02:50:55
subject: <b>I Like Aram</b>
body:
Good theory!<br /><br />Originally, I thought it would be Perrin.  It seems he is the one always faced with the moral dilemma, but he has never wavered from his own &quot;violence when necessary&quot; ideals.  Afterall, he is a wolfbrother, and wolves can be savage hunters, particularly against Trollocs and Myrddraal.<br /><br />Next, I thought it would be an Aiel.  The Aiel were the original singers of the song, and when so many of them tossed aside their spears and fled in tSR, I thought, &quot;this is it!&quot;  But there has been dreadfully little about what these Aiel are doing in the plot.<br /><br />Aram makes perfect sense.  Who better to decide for himself than the man who's played both sides of the field?  It's like Sunday School, almost.  You go to Sunday School and church when you're little, not because you want to be there, but because your elders insist that you should.  In college, you say, &quot;forget this&quot; and abandon your church for years.  Then, as an older and wiser adult, you long for meaning and return to the faith.<br /><br />(This in NO WAY describes my own relgious experiences or beliefs, btw.)<br /><br />I always thought Aram was a DF or maybe even a Forsaken.  He was just too trigger-happy all of the time.  If and when he finds the song, it will be because he CHOSE to do violence as a Tinker, then later CHOSE to reject violence.  He will be one of the better-informed candidates.  And we don't have to go scrambling around and looking for a 14th Forsaken, trying to figure out who Aram is.<br /><br />There IS a song, too.  The Tinkers are devoted lookers, but faith alone isn't going to cut it.  You need to have experience, luck AND faith.<br /><br />Maybe the song should be &quot;I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For&quot; by U2.  Heh.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(I'm a huge U2 fan)<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-30 18:43:40
subject: <b>How about Gaul?</b>
body:
<br />In a addition to Aram and/or Perrin and Loial - I think that Gaul must be involved.  He has been with Perrin for quite a while with no good reason.  I also seem to remember the remarks that they(the two Aiel gals-can't remember their names right now) would teach Gaul to sing before they ever threw away their spears and consented to marry him.  This is the kind of double meaning that I can see as happening in the plot.  We have all those characters travelling together.  Maybe the song is found as result of rescuing Faile.  I can see two possible plot lines following after the song is found.  Its either used as a weapon to hold the dark forces at bay - or as a nod to Perrin being the &quot;rebuilder&quot; it may be that Rand almost destroys the world again and that the song is used to repair the land


created: 2003-02-18 22:39:59
subject: <b>Not a chance</b>
body:
Jordan has based his books off of true humanity.  And everyone knows, that as much as we hope for peace, we will never achieve pure peace.  It is against our own human nature.  So finding the song is just chasing that imposible dream.


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>In response</b>
body:
Well if Rand is half brother to Galad, and Berlain is the consumate Hawk then Berlain does have a connection to Egwene. Galad cares for Egwene like a sister (and nothing more I would think) and knows that her brother loves her I think. So hi brothers one true love being a Tar Valon Witch is still not enough to get him set against her. I can see Galad starting a faction of Whitecloaks for the Salidar Aes Sedai because they are fighting to change the very nature of the Tower itself. Berlain has been predicted to fall in love with a man in white yes? Is it a man wearing white (a Child of the Light) or Berlain wearing white (getting taken Gaishan if she and Perrin catch up to Faile). If she falls in Love with Galad (hey opposites attract right?) and he takes her with him to go help Egwene with the War (bringing a bang of Children of the Light, and having his little bro's younglings, not to mention the Mayener forces with Berlain and maybe some more reinforcements from home, added to Brynes forces gives them most if not all if not more than the men that they need) effor then Berlain and the Amyrlin will be involved with the war council.<p>   There's a connection betwixt Egwene and Berlain (hey I didn't even have to make any snide pillow friends jokes).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 04:17:13
subject: <b>naw</b>
body:
I personally believe that the hawk you are talking about is not Berlain but the Seanchan who are the descendants of Hawkwings empire.  I believe dear Egwene is the only Aes Sedai capable of both controlling and yet embracing the broken Suldam/damane into the Tower as yet another extension.  though its not a very strong one just stronger than yours<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 17:13:06
subject: <b>two things</b>
body:
I think that this could be one of two things. Egwene is going to marry Gawyn or be killed. Berelain is going to marry a man in white which could very likley be Galad. That would make Berelain Egwenes sister in law, connection enough. <br />The other possibility is Mat. Mat is going to marry Tuon/ the daughter of nine moons. The sign of the imperial family is a hawk with lightning in its talons. But as to what the connection between the two is I am unsure although we know Tuon can learn to channel because of her training of the Damane. Maybe they will meet in the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 10:36:40
subject: <b>Berelain IS the Hawk</b>
body:
Who else?<br />She's a Hawkwing, yes? yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 23:07:10
subject: <b>Berelain's man in white</b>
body:
Galad is a good thought, I'm surprised it hasn't come up as a possibility before. I can hardly see her falling in love with a gai'shan, unless it's Rhuarc, who I think is more of a father figure to her than a lover....<br />(besides, he's already got two wives who could skin and filet Berelain if she tried).<br /><br />LTT<br />


created: 2001-10-11 13:32:43
subject: <b>Women hate Berelain because...</b>
body:
Wotmania, as to your comment of why you can't understand why no women like Berelain, I can tell you why.  She is my least favorite character in all of the books (well, it is a tie with Graendal), and I know it is because I would hate her if I really knew her.  She and Graendal both remind me of, say, a Playboy model.  Women don't like Playboy models who strut their stuff and hit on all the men in the room. Scratch that, women hate them.  Berelain dresses like a slut, even when it is cold, and throws herself at men.  I hated her the most in WH when she led everyone to believe that she slept with Perrin.  Berelain SUCKS!


created: 2002-06-10 17:32:46
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
I can't see why no female character is supposed to like Berelain. She got on extremely well with the Wise Ones in Cairhien, remember?


created: 2002-12-29 10:35:33
subject: <b>yep</b>
body:
Plus, Rand is related to the Aiel, so it really is his blood spilled on the rocks.  And because he is prophesized to destroy the Aiel, that's probably what's gonna happen.


created: 2001-11-08 21:54:09
subject: <b>It doesn't matter</b>
body:
Remember when Rand plunged the sword into the stone?  Moiraine got really mad (like that's new).  Basically she tells him that anyone can wield Callandor now that Rand has retrieved it, and that plunging it into the stone is little protection if it is wielded by a Forsaken or DF.  <br />So, it is completely possible that Narishma can &quot;follow after&quot; Rand just by using the sword in a great battle (ie Falme), but, that does not guarantee Narishma to be the next 'dragon' or Tamyrlin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 03:22:12
subject: <b>Logain as M'hael</b>
body:
Since Taim seems to have gone, or always been, darkfriend, and Logain leads the second faction of the Black Tower, I think the glory that Min foresaw about him will be that he kills Taim on a critical moment, thus saving Rand and with him the world.<br /><br />That leaves some space for Narishma to be Tamthingy.


created: 2003-01-02 16:40:11
subject: <b>Narishma Flame...</b>
body:
Narishma has to &quot;follow after&quot;. The only things that LTT *did* that are at all repeatable were to be Tamrylin and to kill his family. Luckily for some, Narishma has no family.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-24 15:05:34
subject: <b>You are correct sir</b>
body:
I agree 100%.  Narishma will one day lead the Reunified aes Sedai, a la AOL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-17 22:35:54
subject: <b>hang on</b>
body:
was't there a thing when Rand was cleansing the source where narishma says that he is one of the forsaken in disguise? You know he was thinking that he had to be careful with the other chosen there so they wouldn't know where he was hanging out? And that he might have to kill one to make sure Al'Thor wouldn't discover him. Maybe that was someone else, but I was sure  it was him. And if this is the case than surely he would be destroyed at TG and so couldn't be Tamyrlin


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Ways and Skimming</b>
body:
They also say that the Ways had all sorts of living things in it and it was always sunny until the War of the Hundred Years when they went dark.  Also Loial was caught muttering that the Waygates used to shine like mirrors and that is in no way close to what a Skimming gateway looks like.


created: 2001-06-21 05:55:57
subject: <b>Ways</b>
body:
Loial also said that the Ways were tainted along with saidin, as that's what made them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 16:31:40
subject: <b>not sure about htat</b>
body:
The men who created the Ways used thier knowledge of those Posts to other realities if i remember correctly which they figured was related to Tel'aran'rhiod.  So it seems to me that like in tar the men were able to create an alternate reality that was linked to their reality. And each time a new way was added the ways would grow accordingly, providing the conceptof growing ot them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 23:10:14
subject: <b>The Ways cannot be the Skimming grounds</b>
body:
For the simple reason that Mashadar never showed up in anyone's Skimming portal. Never even a hint or whisper of it. It's another separate dimension unto itself.<br /><br />LTT<br />


created: 2001-09-20 00:19:29
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Male traveling/skimming is described as punching a hole through the pattern. I think the ways are just a quicker path grown in combination of the aes sedai and ogier. And also think the seanchan garderners know how to grow them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 17:34:18
subject: <b>here we go</b>
body:
let me put in my 2 cents about the ways.<br /><br />I personally think that the ways are a section of tel'aran'rhiod (thats the world of dreams) that was sectioned out to carry people through them.  The taint on them is the taint on saidin, which holds the shape of the ways together.  Why do they make you get places faster?    a)everyting...and i mean EVERYTHING is infinately malleable in the world of dreams<br />b) the entire world changed during the breaking, and maybe the ways didn't change to suit the world outside.<br /><br />anyway, thats my 2 cents.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />sauron<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 17:11:35
subject: <b>portal stones and the ways</b>
body:
In The Great Hunt, Verin Sedai (i believe) mentions that the Ways were concieved of after studying the Worlds That Might Be through the Portal Stones.  The idea of time moving differently in the Ways originated there.  I'm not sure if this will help in any theories, but there it is.


created: 2002-08-26 08:12:33
subject: <b>If the taint on the ways is related</b>
body:
to the taint on saidin, it will be really interesting to see what will happen now.<br />Will the Ways brighten up? <br />I think not, because a male channeler will not become less mad, but will cease to progress in madness.<br /><br />Maybe it will be possible now to clean the Ways though, but it can be argued that Rand will not do so, because the Ways are often used by Trollocs of late. Best not make it any easier for them.


created: 2002-06-11 02:03:08
subject: <b>.....nothing really</b>
body:
i agree that Dashiva is more than he appears. i would think that he is one of the Forsaken before i would think Taim was. i just really hope that half of the Asha'man are not DF's. i don't think i could handle that. Asha'man are the coolest.... lol


created: 2002-09-05 22:13:47
subject: <b>Dashiva is Osan'gar</b>
body:
Proven on page 754 of Winter's Heart. I believe the exact quote is &quot;Osan'gar panted from the excertion of running. Those months masqurading as Corlan Dashiva had not made him any fonder of exercise.&quot; <br /><br /><br />*~*BlackVelvet*~*


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
Okay Post WH---------<p><br />The taint has been cleared, right?  There is no need to be protected from Callandor's flaws.  Also, RJ does put in some info that is NEVER used.  Elayne and Nynaeve have made several plans that they never had to use b/c Mat or someone came along and did something that completely destroys their plan.  </p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-02 19:58:38
subject: <b>Jahar Narishma</b>
body:
First of all, Callandor has already been wielded as forseen by Egwene's dreams. She sees a dark, handsome young man wielding a sword that shines so bright she can hardly tell what it is.<br /><br />This was fulfilled by Narishma while Rand and Nynaeve were cleansing Saidin north of Shadar Logoth. Narishma was linked with two Aes Sedai, and he is very definitely described as dark, young, and handsome.<br /><br />All the theories that Logain will wield Callandor can be laid to rest, I don't see Rand trusting any former false dragon quite that far, at least not until he ousts Taim from the Black Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 20:42:55
subject: <b>Logain and Callandor</b>
body:
I agree that Logain is a logical choice. <br />He's nearly as strong as Rand, has already learned humility -- being captured and gentled, then healed and &quot;let loose&quot; has removed a lot of his arroganc. Notice that, though he's probably equal in raw power to Taim (who I, personally, agree is Demandred, though I can't explain how Taim was running around for years before Demandred escaped).<br /><br />Has anyone seen (or mentioned), that, with the Taint removed from the Source, Callandor SHOULD be safe to use? IF the only problem previously was the fact that Callandor amplified the Taint in direct proportion to the amount of Power used, then it should now be useable by any male channeler without repercussions. IE, Source Amplified + Taint Amplified = Source Amplified ONLY, when Taint=0 (See, it's all in the math! LOL)


created: 2001-09-06 02:28:30
subject: <b>Cadsuane says</b>
body:
that callandor not only lacks the buffers on the taint that make others safe to use but it induces a wildness in the user, as Rand shows us while attacking the seachan. so the removal of the taint probably will not make any difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 15:39:23
subject: <b>Narishma the faithful, Saidin the pure</b>
body:
i have tried many times to get one of my own theories on this subject onto the theory board, but i guess a response to an already posted theory will have to suffice.  i do not think that Logain will necessarily be the one who will wield Callandor.  Rand's Ashaman have now been bonded to AS who can link with them in order to be buffered from the wildness of Callandor (and Narishma looks tall, dark, and handsome to me!--i.e. Egwene's dream).  Also, if one of the main problems with the sword that ain't is that it amplifies the taint, well NEWSFLASH, the taint is yesterday's news.  it's gone, so it might even be safe alone to use.  to think that Rand would trust Logain, a former Dragon Reborn proclaimer, is a bit of a stretch in light of the fact that he already has male channelers who he has trusted and who have proven their trust.  I can't remember exactly, but just WHEN do Egwene, Elayne, and Min see a gentled Logain in Tar Valon.  i seem to remember it being BEFORE her dream of the dark man with the sun in his hands.  if so, then she wouldn't have said &quot;i dreamt of a tall, dark man...&quot; it would have been more &quot;i dreamt of Logain...&quot;  Afterall, she does dream of Logain and totally recognizes his face (when she sees him walking over a dead Rand.) let me know what you think!


created: 2001-11-20 18:20:24
subject: <b>Narishma!!</b>
body:
First of all, taint or no it isn't safe to use. The buffer Cadsuane spoke of was not a buffer against the taint, but a buffer against drawing more of the power than one can safely handle.  In addition to giving access to more power, a sa'angreal protects the weilder for the possible stilling of himself.  When using an angreal, the only limiting factor is the strength of the angreal.  When Rand used the Portal Stone to Rhuidean, the angreal wasn't strong enough, and he exhausted himself channeling enough to bring every body, but he did not kill or gentle himself.  Likewise when Nynaeve started to collapse with the Chodan Kal, Cadsuane said it was from physical exhaustion, not over-drawing, &gt;unless they were flawed like Callandor!!!&lt;. Nynaeve or Elayne told the Sea Folk that a link protects the non-leaders from having too much of the power channeled through them.  This is why two or more women have to link with Callandor's user.  In circle of only one woman, the man has to channel, where as in circle with a woman leading, the man and Callandor are reduced to glorified battery status, while she does the work, and the &quot;rules&quot; of linking prevent the man from burning himself out.  In other words if Rand tried to use Callandor again, he could still lose control, burn himself out or even try overreaching his limits again.  Channelling can affect one's judgement (see Moiraine's description of symptoms of a wilder to Nynaeve back in EotW) even if it's not tainted.  The taint, I believe merely adds a nasty, chaotic and evil edge to lapses in judgement (hence the fact that acccounts of men gone mad seem to indicate a common tendency towards destruction and murder).  Okay, so women are still necessary, why not Logain? Don't forget there's a prophecy suggesting something important for the one who draws Callandor after the Dragon Reborn.  Rand recites it to Moiraine after planting Callandor in the floor. Narishma drew it out, so he's the one refered to.  Also Logaine isn't that strong.  Verin said that he would be unable to weild the Choedan Kal (in the Great Hunt), but that Elaida, Moiraine, the Amyrlin, one or two others (Cadsuane? Romanda &amp; Lelaine?), and three women still in training (duh) could.  Even if the standard was lowered for the female Choedan Kal, the Tower's Elite at the time of Verin's statement are hardly worth mentioning in light of the super powers turning up among the Sea Folk and Aiel (Someryn, the substitute mothers in the adoption ceremony)and Seanchan and Forsaken.  As men go, therefore, Logain probably isn't that strong.  Especially if he is weaker than Moiraine and Co.  Don't forget how easily Rand handled Egwene and Elayne (Egwene was at full strength, having been forced-according to Elayne in PoD; Rand was barely beginning), either of whom was much stronger than Moiraine, who was strong enough to use the Choedan Kal, while Logain isn't, so wasting Callandor on him might not be a good idea. Remember, when using the Bowl, the 3 angreal were given to the 3 strongest women (Originally it was supposed to be Elayne, but Aviendha is just as strong).  Also, Rand could use it again.  He trusts Nynaeve and Alivia, and probably Elayne and Aviendha (he didn't trust any Aes Sedai except Nynaeve he says).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


