# w_comment

created: 2001-10-26 12:41:29
subject: <b>Half the Light of the World</b>
body:
aikidoka (on 9/28/01 1:13:12 PM) said<br />&gt;what if Mat giving up half the light of the <br />&gt;world is combined with this Judas theory. <br />&gt;Maybe Rand is the light of the world <br />&gt;that Mat gives up.<br /> <br />I was thinking along this same line.  Mat betrays Rand (giving up half the light of the world) by tricking him into a place/position where he must kneel in the male adam before the Crystal Throne, as per the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon.  All of this brings the power of Seanchan to Rand in time for the last battle, saving the world.  I see this happening as part of a marital negotiation between Mat and Tuon, with Mat agreeing to marry Tuon (the last thing he wants to do) in order to assure the Seanchan armies are on the right side in the battle.  <br /><br />And while we are on the topic, who are the two women controlling Rand thru the Adam?  I don't think it could be a Seanchan because all of their channelers are in adams themselves, and I think there would be some nasty feedback problems (the pain felt when a male channeler touches an adam).  For my money, the two would be Cadsuane and Morraine.  Anyways, just a thought.  <br /><br />Oh yeah, isn't there a viewing of Min's where a hand gets cut off?  Was that Rand's hand?  And who do you think would be the other half of the light of the world since Mat only gives up &quot;half the light of the world to save the world??&quot;<br /><br />C ya<br />Dolphineus


created: 2002-01-23 01:47:04
subject: <b>I agree wholeheartedly</b>
body:
I know for a fact that there has to be a betrayl by someone close to Rand in the future, and there is nop one better for it than Mat.<br /><br />There is a whole string of events to come that support the theory.<br /><br />-Mat and the daugher of the nine moons.<br />-Mat betraying Rand (by the Portal Stone vewings theory)<br />-Mat giving up half the light... blah blah..<br />-Rand kneeling beside the Crystal Throne (and lets not forget that the only way for Rand actually to do that is for him to be forced.  Male adam with two bracelets comes to mind) As per the Seanchen version of the Prophecies of the Dragon.<br /><br />And Rand is a Christ figure, no doubt about it.  The searies is heavily laced with religion, why not Christ too?


created: 2002-01-30 16:42:24
subject: <b>Mat as Judas does make sense.</b>
body:
I think that this theory is a pretty good one.  I mean, in the Bible, it says that Christ loved Judas, and it seems to me that the two closest ta'veren are Mat and Rand.  Of course, if it will truly follow the Christ symbolism, then Rand will have to know that Mat will betray him.  Of course, that's just what i think.


created: 2002-02-05 01:40:22
subject: <b>Gawyn as Judas</b>
body:
Judas did not actually kill Jesus.  He betrayed Jesus to the Romans, because Jesus wasn't what he was &quot;supposed to be.&quot;  In this, if RJ has decided (he said in an interview he thought of the ending 1st, so there will or will not be a Judas) to have a Judas, I think it will be Gawyn. <br />     Gawyn promised Egwene that he would not kill Rand.  But as shown in LOC, he did nothing to hinder the sisters and their treatment of him.  Gawyn already thinks that Rand killed his mother, is in love with and will kill his sister, and is a threat to the world.  Hardly the man Gawyn would have chosen to be the Dragon Reborn.  Also, Judas thought that Jesus' relationship with Mary Magdilin (or whatever) was sinful and wrong.<br />    Another point, already touched upon lightly, is that in his methods of ruling the world, Rand has conquered with war and violence, where Jesus never did any of that.  Gawyn's ideal Dragon very well might be what Jesus what.  Perhaps RJ has deliberately inverted the characters, just to raise a philisophical point.  Would Jesus be loved today is he did what Rand had done before sacrificing himself for the world?  If Rand is turning into (pun) the Anti-Christ, and Gawyn sees something wrong in this, don't you think he might betray Rand, just to see that the world doesn't fall to a madman, with the power of the gods?


created: 2002-04-25 13:07:38
subject: <b>Rand, Mat, Taim, Galad</b>
body:
As a Christian, i have no problem with Rand as a Christ figure.  We've got Christ figures in movies like Platoon (tell me Willam Dafoe's character is not set up like one!), and throughout history.  There is nothing offensive about that.  Second, this is a created world that is NOT earth.  It is not our world.  RJ surely draws parallels with many aspects of World culture, including Christ.<br /><br />Now, if we want to look at the betrayer...<br /><br />This depends if the betrayer is a Judas.  Judas had full knowledge of what he was doing and Jesus knew.  If the betrayer is Mat, i think it would be an unintentional thing.  Mat knows too much about the whole thing for him to betray.  He had the dreams at the beginning, he knows Rand.  Also, the Bible sets Judas up early as the betrayer.<br /><br />Taim is the obvious choice, and since he is in Rand's circle, he could be a Judas.  He is set up as not trust worthy.  <br /><br />Galad.  He's my odd choice.  Think about it.  Galad only does what is right, if he thinks that Rand has harmed Andor or Elayne, he would betray or attack.  Also, as a male channeler, Rand is also in danger of Galad as a member of the Whitecloaks. Galad is close enough because of family. <br /><br />Gawyn (spelled that wrong, didn't i?) for much of the same reasons of Galad.  If he thinks Rand is hurting his sister/Andor, he'll snap.


created: 2002-09-11 13:51:13
subject: <b>The question of Rand as Christ figure</b>
body:
Rand is the Christ figure. Just because he is a Christ figure does not mean that he will have to be betrayed by anyone (although I will not rule that out entirely; it would make a good twist on the plot). Here is my explanation.<br /><br />As a result of countless literature and writing classes, I feel that I am able to say accurately that the Christ figure does not necessarily have to experience the same thing as Christ or even very similar things as Christ experienced. For an example of a Christ figure who experiences nothing very similar to Christ, read The Crossing by Cormac McCarthy.<br /> <br />At any rate, Rand shares many more allusions to Christ than the character of Billy from The Crossing. He is practically covered with stigmata, and he is bearing the burden of saving people from the Shadow. Seems pretty obvious that while he is not the same as Christ, he still shares some of the most important traits, making him a &quot;Christ figure.&quot; <br /><br />Rand is also paralleled to King Arthur and so many other characters that I think it is only reasonable to suggest that he is the Christ figure, too.<br /><br />That's my .02 on the matter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Amera De'Luciana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> I'm not high maintenance. I just want things the way I want them. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 20:39:04
subject: <b>mat good candidate for judas</b>
body:
gawyn cannot be a judas b/c he is not in trust with Rand, nor of course do i think he wants to be.  Judas has to be someone very close. and although he is my fav. character, Mat i would think is a good choice to betray Rand against himself...maybe?  TO save the world from Rand after/during the Last Battle.  Just a thought


created: 2002-12-04 00:58:37
subject: <b>Perrin as Judas</b>
body:
I think that Perrin will be Rand's Judas. He's the only one with motive (Faile) and in one of the descriptions of CoT it says that &quot;Perrin would sell his sole to have her back...&quot; or something like that.


created: 2002-12-12 08:22:19
subject: <b>Blood and Bloody Ashes</b>
body:
By the Light, you Westlanders get strung up! I see no insinuation in the theory that Jesus Christ was not divine, or imperfect, or anything like that. Simply that because there are SIMILARITIES, as RJ has stated, there is quite possibly a Judas-figure. It is not as if God himself was blasphemed here.<br /><br /><br />And yes, Rand is at least mentally a trinity, as well as having a triune wife in Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" />  Slight discrepancy in the hats here.. although of course there is no snow in the Three-Fold Land.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-03 12:34:59
subject: <b>Touchy, touchy</b>
body:
Why are we getting so upset about the religion thing?  IT'S JUST A STORY!!!!  Which is what any religion is, in my opinion.  I don't see why some get cheesed off when Xianity isn't followed to the letter or there's some vague implication that it's not true, yet any twist or subversion to any other myth/religion happens, it's all fine and dandy.  At least be fair about it; sheesh.  And might I add that a zillion religions have been represented and mixed here, and all the parallels that can be drawn to and between all these religions should make us realize that they're all variations on the same theme anyway.  Sorry about the little rant, but please; have we all forgotten that it's FANTASY??????  Look at the literature genre on your book spine. <br /><br />Anyway, my take on the Judas thing (if there happens to be one) - Mat, Perrin, or Egwene; that's my short list.  The three people closest to him - his two best friends and the girl he was going to marry.  Mat's seen betrayal as a possibility, but perhaps the fact that he HAS seen it will keep him from doing it in this life.  That's what I hope; Mat's a fave of mine.  Egwene may very well do it; she's for the White Tower now, and will do almost anything to protect it, and counting that she abandoned Rand in the three different situations in her Accepted test, it's plain where her heart is now.  Except for Gawyn, but he's not Rand's best friend either.  Now, Perrin is getting quite rabid about finding Faile - not like he wasn't before, but he just chopped someone's hand off to get information on her, and it wasn't in the heat of battle.  Hey, with that kind of practice, do you think he'll be the one to part Rand's hand from his arm?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> He has also said numerous times that the world can burn, or the Pattern can be torn to pieces if he loses Faile.  He's not quite focused on the Last Battle. <br /><br />Galad was an interesting suggestion for Judas, though.  He does what is right, no matter who it hurts, how many times have we heard that?  That could be some major foreshadowing.  Or then again, it might not.  We wait so long for the new books and RAFO through the old ones that we can predict the outcome of a war with Iraq if we look hard enough.<br /><br />Oh, by the way, Rand has, like, 5 people in his head at last count - Lews Therin, Alanna, Elayne, Min, and Aviendha.  Way more than a trinity, but still a sacred number!!


created: 2003-02-15 14:25:11
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
I for one believe it will be perrin.  I don't have the time to go into great detail about this know.  But we all know tha Cadsune is there to teach Rand about emtion, Perrin will be the catalist for this.  More details will be forcoming when time permits.


created: 2003-05-05 19:27:25
subject: <b>Judas=?</b>
body:
My take on this is that there is two possible canadates:mat and ewgyne(sp?).<br /><br />Mat I wont even bother to explain why since it been explained about 50 times.<br /><br />Ewgyne I will. Proof:<br />1.She was close at first but grew slowly to the outer circle, just like judas. <br />2.She has reason to betray him, namely she hates him now and he is a BIG threat to the Tower.<br />3.She has access to a large number of ter'angreal that have undefined uses.<br />4.13 Aes Sedai=unbreakable sheild. She has access to more than that :p<br />5.Shes evil<br /><br /><br />Founder of the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Ajah of Chaos<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-14 00:05:40
subject: <b>Rand as Christ</b>
body:
i don't know if this has been mentioned before (and it probably has): Callandor (sp?) on the cover of tDR looks like a cross, a holy one at that due to the aura of white


created: 2003-05-15 09:52:32
subject: <b>perhaps,but why?</b>
body:
It';s an interesting theory, there are definately Christ paralells.<br /><br />Mat betraying Rand seems possible, especially given certain evidence, circumstantial msotly. the portal stone quote is a good one though.<br /><br />My simple question is, what is his motivation? Judas did it for money, what's Mat's &quot;thirty peices of silver&quot;?


created: 2004-01-21 08:29:40
subject: <b>In reply to Crolan_Dashiva</b>
body:
Perhaps Mat's &quot;thirty pieces of silver&quot; will be Tuon - or at least his love for her. It also fits with the &quot;half the light of the world&quot; thing, Mat betrays Rand by becoming Son of the Nine Moons (?) but gives her up (even temporarily) in order to save Rand or something Rand needs - one or more of Avi, Min or Elayne perhaps. Maybe Mat leaves when he hears the DOTNM has attacked Rand and kidnapped him or attempted to kidnap him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 12:08:49
subject: <b>HA HA HA HA HA</b>
body:
All I have to say is: this argument is hilarious. I mean, *what if* Christ was real or not? What if Rand bloody flaming al'Thor was real? What if Mat is reborn as Cher and goes streaking at a football game? What if Judas is the Creator?<br /> You guys are all like: &quot;I am so personally offended that you would think that what I said about you saying for what he said about religion and being a story and just being not real and how it's all so real, is that I was saying but you said I didn't think so. I think we can think whatever we want if we can so you said but when Rand was Christ I thought Judas snorted cocaine wherever Mat gave up the light I think Galad could have done it. So I'm mad.&quot;<br /> WHAT THE f --- !!!<br /> Anyway. Have fun continuing to puzzle out this friggin MYSTERY.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 13:01:23
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
I must say, this is one of the best theories about the Barrier that I've read. It was very logically thought out. I commend you! I agree completely that this seems to be the most likely way the barrier can be fixed - destroyed completely and then made anew.


created: 2001-09-28 15:40:37
subject: <b>Doubt it</b>
body:
I don't think the Choeden Kal alone can un-make the Bore.  As for Lanfear's comment, I think she has an overdeveloped opinion of herself and the Choeden Kal.<br /><br />I think the Creator will intervene once Rand wounds(?) or pushes back the Dark One into his prison.<br /><br />Philosophically, I believe there is no way to create something greater than yourself.  So if the Creator made humanity and humanity made the CK, there is a two generation link.  Too far.


created: 2001-09-29 13:46:07
subject: <b>I think you're wrong...</b>
body:
Unfortunatley, I think you have made a mistake. The Aes Sedai:s of the AoL made the bore on a specific spot. They did that because it was there, and only there, that they could feel the DO, even if they didn't know what they felt.<br />That means that there was a weakness in the barrier already. <br />Time doesen't flow in a straigt line in Randland, it is bound to repeat itself. (the _wheel_ of time, remember?)<br />What I'm trying to say, is that all this have already happened before, and if Rand succedes, it will happen again. <br />Rand doesn't need to be as strong as the creator, because the creator had nothing to do with barrier that the Aes Sedai:s wrecked with the bore.<br />That barrier was man-made, or, if you prefer, power-made.<br /><br />Thought I still think that your theory is interesting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />btw...<br />What will become of Mat &amp; Perrin?<br />After all, they are considered to be essential to the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 17:53:57
subject: <b>Nice Job!</b>
body:
nice job on this theory.  a few side points...in order to have choden kal work, we are gonna need another access ter'angreal for a woman, because nynaeve wasn't strong enough to keep hers in tact.  i was rereading TGH, and i saw that one of the unknown ter'angreal the black ajah stole, was a  woman made out of some funky material.  i believe that this could be an access ter'angreal for choden kal.  wouldn't that be a kick in the ass.  the black ajah with the ability to tap into the most powerful femaly sa'angreal ever, but they don't know what they have! <br />Also, i saw a post on this theory about how the aes sedai bored the bore (damn thats redundant), but i'm pretty sure lanfear bored it herself.  anyway, nice job.  feel fre to poke holes in my comments at any time, its the only way i'll learn.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />a green sister looking at galad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 00:08:50
subject: <b>probably</b>
body:
first off, good work.<br /><br />as for that comment lanfear made, i'd have to agree that she thought too highly of herself and suffered from a severe case of perpetual megalomania.<br /><br />i believe that ltt may have wanted to do what you've suggested rand will do in this age, but couldn't because he had only men with him.  remember, the greatest feats of the aol were done when men and women worked together.  <br /><br />idle speculation: what happens if rand and nynaeve actually do go about this and succeed, but the DO's counterstroke is the same as before?  this time there'd be women present, and both saidin and saidar could become tainted.  the result would be a far more impressive Breaking than the last, i'd say.  then we go through a few ages of the DO being imprisoned (completely, this time) and rare channelling (that always results in madness, male or female), and the DO's taint on the power lessens over time because it no longer has a free hand in the world.  eventually we get to the point where saidin and saidar are taint-free again...leading up to the next age of legends when the bore is drilled once again...and right back to where we are now.<br /><br />sometimes i think i think too much. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 14:57:26
subject: <b>whoa!</b>
body:
Heartshade, wonderful!<br /><br />That theory of both saidin and saidar getting tainted for the price of complete sealing is just beautiful, as is the idea that the taint eventually wears off...<br /><br />One thing needed to connect into that is the non-channeling Age... Maybe later, there is seven Ages after all, and we only have access to 2nd, 3rd and soon 4th Age of the WoT.<br /><br />Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 00:43:24
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
Thanks for all the feedback.  I really like the idea of both halves getting tainted from the back lash.<br /><br />As far as the female Choeden Kal I think that since they have started to rediscover the making of ter'angreal it may even be an option for them to create a new one.  As a plot device, it is very convinient for one of the two to be destroyed and therefore delay the attack on Mt. Doom.<br /><br />As far as the spot being &quot;felt&quot; by the Aes Sedai of the AoL:  I think that just because the barrier is recreated the DO would most likely start beating at the barrier again.  No matter how well something is made, maybe he is able to wear on it a little.  Like water on a stone.  After Several ages he can wear the barrier thin enough that he can be detected and then they drill him out again.  Given enough time, maybee he could make his own bore.  Since it is the &quot;Wheel of Time&quot;, and not the &quot;Road of time&quot;.  There isn't any fix which will be permanent, but with the remaking of the barrier you have a fix which lasts for Ages instead of a few thousand years.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 21:14:47
subject: <b>No Black Ajah</b>
body:
I don't think the BA have an access ter'angreal for the Choeden Kal.  Moghedien went through all their stuff and took the good stuff.  She would have got that and I'm inclined to think that by now she would have used it (or gave it to Moridin?)


created: 2001-10-05 18:55:08
subject: <b>WOW Some ONE really doesn't like my theory</b>
body:
that wasn't very nice to skew the voting like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 13:35:14
subject: <b>Ego</b>
body:
I disagree that the old barrier needs be swept aside.  The fact that Lanfear said that she and Rand could challenge the creator doesn't make it true.  Throughout hte WOT we have seen that she believes things that conjures up with her own ego.  While the two of them could probably destroy their world, could they battle the creator.  Could they undo his barrier and place a MORE EFFECTIVE one?  I really don't think so.


created: 2002-04-06 10:58:36
subject: <b>what if....</b>
body:
what if rand bale-fired cyndane (assuming she is lanfear <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ) really really hard...since lanfear was the one responsible for opening the bore in the first place, would it be possible to destroy her far enough back that the bore is never created and so the age of lengends never ends and everyone lives happily ever after? except for rand, of course, who is now totally useless and gives up his plan of world domination to start sheep-farming in the Two Rivers getting slowly more and more pissed off with the world until he decides to re-open the bore himself just to get something interesting to do...


created: 2002-05-05 06:57:54
subject: <b>It Broke</b>
body:
Sorry u bloody goat kissing milk drinkers,but in the flamin book Winters Heart when Rand cleansed the bloody saidin the bloody male terangreal flamin broke.And the Creator created the whole flamin world and imprisoned the bloody DarkOne at the moment of creation.So how can the Creator not have known that he put the flamin DarkOne in the world?Sorry your bloody wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 08:40:39
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Uno1- I think you may be wrong.  It was the FEMALE ter'angreal that broke.<br /><br />Da'covale-you're partially right.  The barrier that Mierin Bored into was mad by humans.  However, as you said, this is a wheel.  It had to have originally been made by the Creator.  I agree with the explanation Burasco gave in the 3rd paragraph of his posting.  And I do like the idea of the Dark One's prison being completely removed and then restored.  I think that _only_ then will we get a good idea of what the Dark One can really do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 11:25:10
subject: <b>The endgame</b>
body:
Someone wanted to know what role Mat and Perrin would play in the Last Battle.  Well, I envision something like this:<br /><br />Mat sounds the Horn of Valere to summon the Heroes to aid Rand's Aiel (and other armies) in fighting the Shadowspawn.  Perrin bears the Dragon Banner so that the Creator sees it is at the right place (and it MUST have something to do with the Last Battle, or the Creator wouldn't have mentioned it's lack at Tarwin's Gap).<br /><br />Given that Rand has put everything into place, I suspect that the Creator will sort of &quot;link&quot; with Rand (and hopefully, Rand is already linked with a big group of more channelers, male and female) and fix that Bore for good.<br /><br />And who cares what Herid Fel's theories are on the Wheel?  Once the Creator decides that *this* isn't going to be played out again, that's it!  Men can certainly make their own evil and their own troubles without the Creator giving them access to the Dark One! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-25 14:18:37
subject: <b>Hmm... Something to consider</b>
body:
During Eye of the World, after Rand absorbed the taint-free Saidin, he appeared at Tarwin's Gap battle.  There were lines written in all capital letters, similiar to what we have seen used when the Dark One speaks to the Forsaken.<br /><br />I don't have the exact text with my at work, but the voice that Rand was hearing did say something like &quot;NOT HERE&quot; referring to the battle field, and something about helping or not helping Rand.<br /><br />This would seem to lend belief that the Creator will take a hand in the story directly if Rand is at the right place, at the right time.<br /><br />Just something to consider.


created: 2002-08-04 19:30:43
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
I partly agree, with some of the thoughts. <br /><br />Firstly I do agree with the cleaning up of the bore and remaking it, this sounds plausible for all the points made.<br /><br />But I dont think Rand and a female Aes Sedai will reseal it using the Choeden Kal. I recently reread EotW again and the battle at Tarwin Gap does point to the Creator stepping in at some point(CH51 page 75<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />. Now I am not happy with this thought as I have always believed that the creator should leave human kind to sort out its own problems. But it seems to be the way things are going.<br /><br />Otherwise a sound theory. <br /><br />


created: 2003-01-28 13:31:06
subject: <b>extrapolation on previous posts....</b>
body:
&quot;This is why I believe that the sa' angreal will be used not to seal the bore forever... but to recreate the whole barrier between the Dark One and the world. (In doing this he may need to break the world again.)&quot;<br />&quot;Power filled him. <br />He was one with the sphere... <br />into the shadow with teeth bared... <br />to spit in sightblinder's eye... <br />Power to break the world.&quot;<br />&quot;And then he shouts 'ON THE LAST DAY'. Then the source left him. I think, that on the last day of the last battle, that sa'angreal will be used by the Dragon. For what I can't say, only that they will be used. If any one wants to add more to this or already has, I would like to hear it for I know this is pretty shallow.&quot;<br /><br />My extrapolation on these previous posts and quotes:<br />that the barrier made by the creator will have to be remade, but not before the trash is clear and the existing barrier is removed. This will free the dark one and the Last Battle will commence whilst the new barrier will be remade to again seal the Dark One away. When the DO is released, his shadow will fall across the land, etc...many tidbits of the many prohecies could be beleivably inserted in this scenario. Just a few more thoughts. My first post so be nice <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />-SW


created: 2003-04-10 05:14:51
subject: <b>what if Lanfear's wrong?</b>
body:
She can be, you know. She's not the Creator, jast a forsaken flesh and blood.<br />a lot of things in the books based on what she said, and I think it will be great if Rand will try to do something (probably kill the DO) with the chuadan cal (or what ever you spell it) and realize that he is not that powerfull...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 18:16:28
subject: <b>About the ever turning wheel....</b>
body:
In the first books didn't Ishmahel (sp) say that &quot;this time was different&quot; and something to the effect that this time the issue would be decided for good one way or another?  Perhaps this time the bore will be remade completly, the wheel broken and perhaps the one power destroyed as others have said before me.  That would make this theory much more likely.<br /><br />Anyway just my two cents!


created: 2007-09-04 01:19:03
subject: <b>The Creator</b>
body:
I almost agree with you. But I think Lanfear was delusional when she said that with the Choeden Kal they could challenge the Creator. RJ made a lot of allusions of our world to WoT, and I think he has another one is store, a religious one: the absolutely nothing can compare with the power of the Creator.


created: 2001-09-28 21:25:40
subject: <b>sounds good to me..</b>
body:
hell, tonight everything sounds good. now really... 'm too drunk but nobody will hopefuly read this so it doesn't matter. I think I got a little to much this evening, that is all. Cheers! party!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Komorok <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 22:00:58
subject: <b>cheers...</b>
body:
I'm not sure about the theory, but I say we all head to Sweden...  There's a party going on there at Komorok's place...<br /><br />p.s.  Komorok, if your comment was posted at 9:25 pm EST, doesn't that mean about day break in your neck of the woods?  I HAVE to go to this Sweden place one day...<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-09-29 23:10:02
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Rand fought with Ishamael at the end of tDR and no seals broke.  He didn't know what he was doing then.


created: 2001-09-30 08:49:32
subject: <b>And...</b>
body:
What about the seal found in Tanchico?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 16:03:21
subject: <b>As Zex pointed out...</b>
body:
Rand was nowhere near the seal in Tanchico.  In their current condition breaking the seals (assuming that is something he will want to do) will not be difficult.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 17:42:22
subject: <b>But don't forget the Obvious</b>
body:
don't forget the obvious flaw in this theory.  There were women among the hundred companions (i'm positive i read this).  the dark one's stroke was against saidin, but the women went mad immediately from being directly there during the dark one's blow, even though it wasn't aimed at them.  Thus, the presence of female channelers, creating the ability to link, successfully kills this theory.  sorry, but i had to do it.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />a green sister looking at galad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S. just for the record, there were over 100 members in the 100 companions.  it was rounded down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 10:38:19
subject: <b>there were no women...</b>
body:
actually, the women were agruing to try and recapture the CK, and wouldn't support LLT's plan. So LTT and his 100+ drinking buddies went of bythemselves and they actually sealed the DO away, however imperfectly. its held pretty well for 3000 years, long enough for some1 else to come up with a more permanant sealing technique.


created: 2001-10-01 19:16:34
subject: <b>d</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> =  Drinking buddies... I like that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2001-10-07 05:21:52
subject: <b>To live he must die</b>
body:
so if lews therin takes over, rand dies but he does not actually die. so he dies and because they can then seal the bore completely he lives<br /><br />so rand has to die/give lews therin control to make sure he survives


created: 2002-04-09 00:47:33
subject: <b>LTT will die</b>
body:
i agree that Rand has acted under LTT's influence many times in the series, but as the series progresses he is finding ways to avoid this. Rand is also learning on his own how to use saidin and the cleansing of the taint was certainly not LTT's idea nor did he help Rand remove it. i believe that when the time comes, Rand will break the seals himself perhaps with the knowledge gained from LTT. Min's vision leaves LTT dead, not Rand.


created: 2001-10-02 16:00:03
subject: <b>Hmm..</b>
body:
Well, it sounds pretty good. We have certainly seen plenty of examples are DF's killing their own families for personal gain. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 16:21:45
subject: <b>Yeah!</b>
body:
<br />      I think you did a fine job on your first theory.  I never paid that much attention to all of the relationships of the dark friends.  Good job!!!      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />O


created: 2001-10-02 16:30:36
subject: <b>Darn good,</b>
body:
Looks pretty accurate, and i like the idea.  I just sent my first theory and it's either still pending or been chucked out with the other rubbish! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Warder to the Fantabulous Missa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Drinker of spirits <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Eternal watcher of the Damned <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Evil Git <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Chief of the movement for Narg Superiority <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 18:12:19
subject: <b>Winters Heart</b>
body:
Very good theory, and in a way, similar to what we saw at the end of Winter's Heart. The Forsaken all showed up, and were turned away, largely because of the circles the people had formed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 18:14:55
subject: <b>There wre a couple Darkfriends in relationships</b>
body:
In general, your theory works, but this cuts out Melindhra, Mat's girlfriend that was forced to try and kill him, and a few couples whom Liandrin and company had to stay with while.  One in Amador, and another in Tanchico.  Altough they were one sided relationships, Graendel and Rhavin did have quite a few.  In general this theory does seem correct for most of the active Darkfriends.


created: 2001-10-02 18:59:14
subject: <b>Nother thought on DF relations..</b>
body:
...With the possible exceptions of the People that Liandrin and her crew stayed with it seems that all other Dark Friend relationships are based on dominance, power and lust.<br /><br />   The fact that the good guysbase their alliances and love relations on trust and concern for one another will probably be a very big advantage.<br /><br />   Bravo good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 19:21:33
subject: <b>Fortunately...(Or un)</b>
body:
The good friends of the good guys can be zapped by the baddies and cause lots of mourning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 19:25:20
subject: <b>What about the hunters green ajah? (nice name, eh?)</b>
body:
the black ajah in the green ajah have warders, and i'm sure that, knowing the greens, there's something more goin on...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 19:46:58
subject: <b>I like it but...</b>
body:
I would like to point out that our sampling of good guys is much larger than our sampling of bad guys, and we are seeing the world from the good guy persective for the most part.  Even Trollocs have to have some social relationships, how often have they bumped into only one of those things?  Dark friends are still people, and they need social settings.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 12:40:32
subject: <b>Point of view</b>
body:
I think the reason we're seing so many goodguys relationships, and so few badguys falling in love, is that it wouldn't give the right feeling.<br />If you see two mosters kissing, you dont think &quot;Oh, how romantic!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" />, you would rather think &quot;eehw!&quot;.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I must say that Jordan do have a thing for coupling characters.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 16:04:13
subject: <b>Mostly right</b>
body:
A few notable exceptions may be:<br />-Cadsuane<br />-Elaida (not technically a DF, only a puppet)<br />-Elyas<br />-Lini<br />-Tenobia (unless you believe the wild rumors that all Basheres are DFs)<br />-Tam al'Thor (true he did have a wife, but no love interest currently)<br />-Noal (Jain) Charin (Although he may be under Ishamel's influence still)<br />-Aram (although there are theories that he is a darkfriend too)<br /><br />Of course your theory does seem right in the preponderance of cases!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 22:05:55
subject: <b>Ishamael`s love</b>
body:
The only exeption I have red about is in the War of the power time. There was mentioned about a lovestory between Ishamael and LTT`s sister Ariel Sedai


created: 2001-10-08 22:57:53
subject: <b>Ahhh True Love!</b>
body:
Sa La Ve! Beautiful you have a good point i mean i cant think of greandels &quot;pets&quot; being of much help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 23:37:53
subject: <b>The Only One I CAn Think of</b>
body:
Lanfear is the only one of the main dark friends that I can think of that has actually sought after a romantic relationship. I really do believe that she felt love for Rand but he obviously did not reciprocate. I like the theory. I've always thought that the main weakness in the forces of the DO is that they can't trust one another. I believe that in order to win the DO would have to find a way to help his forces work together. However,because they won't they will not have a leg to stand on.


created: 2002-09-04 18:14:06
subject: <b>2 thoughts.</b>
body:
i think it makes perfect sense in alot of ways.  We've seen that both sides of the power, when used alone, can be beaten.  but what about if the two were used in perfect tandem, doing the same thing at the same time?  maybe then it'd be more powerful than the darkfriends.  it would also tie in with the symbol for the aes sedai.  back in the age of legends, when the aes sedai were at the height of power, it was a symbol for both sides of the power being used to the same end.  but when the male half was tainted, it kinda lost that meaning.  it would make sense that for the aes sedai/ashaman to win, they would have to change things back to the way they were at the age of legends.


created: 2002-10-04 21:53:30
subject: <b>Proof!</b>
body:
The dark guys who had relationships drew NO strength from the companionship, its more like they scratched an itch.. or did a little work.<br /><br />Proof of this theory can be seen when Rand and his 3 gals are joined together. The golden bonds they can see flowing between them all. (sidenote: black bonds to the DO)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jheran...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Insert witty remark here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 11:16:42
subject: <b>huh?</b>
body:
Valda was married at some piont if he has a family for the Fades to kill.  He says that a Fade took his daughter on her wedding day at some point in the series.  <br /><br /><br /><br />The brain-dead master of sleep!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-02 02:33:31
subject: <b>Just one little thing</b>
body:
I agree for the most parthowever, what you said about the evil characters not pursuing relationships is not entirely accurate. Lanfear quite obviously tried to pursue one with Rand, Hadnan Kadere was infatuated with Isendre, Melindhra was with Mat, and I am sure there are others that I cannot remember


created: 2003-01-16 12:24:06
subject: <b>the bond</b>
body:
I would have to say I agree with the premise of your theory, and to go even a bit further, I think the warder bond will be one of the keys to winning the last battle.  I'm not sure how exactly, but we are seeing a whole lot of bonding going on in books 9 and 10, and we know that this is something the Forsaken are not privy to.  I believe it is in tPoD that Moridin comments on this particular discovery of these &quot;primatives&quot;, and Graendal makes a similar observation somewhere as well, I think.


created: 2003-10-31 11:00:11
subject: <b>Quadruplets</b>
body:
I don't call rands situation a quadruplet. Its either an orgy or a headache depending on the time of day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 18:30:21
subject: <b>Impressive... most impressive....</b>
body:
Everyone else is going to be be using Callandor because Rand will be using the mother of all sa'angrel the Choden cal.<br /><br />I particularly like your interpretation of the dream and Rand faking his death.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 19:07:38
subject: <b>My vote still goes for Narishma</b>
body:
As the new M'Hael/Tamyrlin. It goes back to the prophecy about the one who pulls out Callandor after Rand being &quot;He who comes after&quot;. I think Logain killing or stilling Taim and perhaps helping Rand win Tarmon Gai'don will be enough to get the massive glory that Min foresaw. Afterall those two actions alone could be enough to possibly tie him to the horn of Valere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 04:04:57
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
If Narishma gets to be the Tamyrlin, will Lodain then be his Keeper of the Cronies, ehh, sorry, I mean chronicles? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Has there been any connection between Logain and Leane, besides on where Leane practiced her  'rusty' skills on him on the way to Salidar? They've seemed a nice couple to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 16:29:31
subject: <b>Not Narishma</b>
body:
The next line after &quot;he who follows after...&quot; is &quot;what hand will wield that fearful blade?&quot;<br /><br />Surely if it was ment to be Narishma it would read:<br /><br />&quot;HIS hand would weild THE fearful blade!&quot;<br /><br />To me the prophecy rules Narishma out of it by its very wording...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 17:49:18
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I like the theory, but I don't think that Taim is going to die too soon. I think that Loagin will definately give him the boot from the Black Tower, but he'll take off with his Darfriend Ashaman and come back at the Last Batle.


created: 2001-10-05 12:51:34
subject: <b>Narishma not ruled out</b>
body:
sure, the words are &quot;who will wield that awful blade&quot; or whatever. i still don't see how that means it won't be Narishma.  first and foremost, he already HAS wielded the thing!  secondly, the question &quot;who will wield&quot; doesn't say that the one who comes after won't be it.  it could be saying 'who will come after and wield the blade?'  it depends on where you place the nuance (which it totally up to the reader).  again, i didn't say that it WON'T be Logain.  what i am saying is that is doesn't necessarily HAVE to be.


created: 2001-11-26 18:00:34
subject: <b>what rand weilds</b>
body:
he will us the key to the huge male sa'angeral when he gets it back from Candsuade at the Last Battle. <br />therefore he wouldn't use the sword. duh?


created: 2002-01-02 09:58:07
subject: <b>Taim must be killed</b>
body:
If you remember Logain was once severed and restored to his same previous power.  I am sure that the Black Sisters would be more than happy to Heal Taim if he were severed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> They call me the Fireman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 17:54:55
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I like that idea. But according to your reasoning, if they 'fill up' the bore with saidin/saidar, then isn't that like the same as the seals being in direct contact with the Dark One. So then would both be tainted.  What Rand did at the end of WH was channel the taint out.  He channeled the entire taint through a tube of Saidar that, in essence, squeezed the taint out of sadin and into Shadar Logoth.


created: 2001-10-03 23:43:41
subject: <b>sounds familiar...</b>
body:
i posted something much (but not exactly) the same as a response to &quot;the power of the creator&quot; theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 10:26:31
subject: <b>Saidin/Saidar</b>
body:
true, they would both be touching the DO, but remember that both were touching the DO's dimension before Meirin and Beidomon drilled the bore.  therefore i believe that when acting together, saidin somehow shields saidar from being tainted and saidar similarly shields saidin.


created: 2002-11-04 13:34:13
subject: <b>Women had to be involved</b>
body:
I've posted this as a theory as well, but as far as I can see, women HAD to be involved in the first placement of the seals.<br /><br />Here's why:<br /><br />You can't form a link/circle without a woman.  Thusly, unless LTT formed the seals and the cuendillar by himself, a woman was involved.  If a woman was involved, that indicates at least SOME use of both sides of the OP.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 13:20:22
subject: <b>to subbie</b>
body:
also remember that all female aes sedai swore NOT to help LTT and instead focus on the making of the two huge angreal that rand later uses to cleanse saidin.  so there was NO way for a female aes sedai to help LTT.


created: 2004-03-08 22:05:17
subject: <b>To Subjugator...</b>
body:
RJ himself said before that no women went w/ LTT when him and the 100 companions to that place at that time (don't know how to spell it *sheepish smile<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />... I have the paper that I printed out with that on my floor by my bed... wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-05 08:22:54
subject: <b>Jus Wonderin'</b>
body:
Okay this is ma 1rst post EVA so plz be nice, but i when i read this theory thingie i started thinkin (very rare thing.. me .. thinking)bout the seals, they are black and white, right? well when women make cuendillar it's white right.. but can they make it any other color, or is it just that when men make it, it's black, and when women make it it's white, but in that case, there had to be women involved in making the seals (cuz they're black AND white) .. and now i'm confused by my own rambling.. :S<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">.~*Steeffie*~.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 15:03:51
subject: <b>What about Demandred</b>
body:
He was just a little weaker than Lews Therin in just about everything, maybe he was a weaker Ta`veren as well<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Carlos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> If there were no god it would be necessary to create him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 15:12:39
subject: <b>Sorry I doubt</b>
body:
Well I don&#180;t deny the possibility that <i>ta&#180;veren</i> can be on the Dark side. But I doubt that there has to be a balance of three evil <i>ta&#180;veren</i>. The reason is simply that this balance of DFs and &quot;normal&quot; people is not 1 : 1.<br />And there is one problem with Ishy / Moridin: Although I have not completely figured out Mat and his former lives, I strongly think that <i>ta&#180;veren</i> are reborn some time after their deaths (when they are needed) but certainly not immediately. Well, Moridin was revived by the DO, but I still doubt. On the other hand, <i>ta&#180;veren</i> work could explain the fact that Ishy was never completely trapped and free from time to time...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 16:00:55
subject: <b>I like the thought of Ishy as <i>ta'veren</i></b>
body:
I think the fact that he wasn't completely trapped, plus his ability to sway Hawkwing, both point to his being <i>ta'veren</i>.  But I don't agree with there being an even number.  There is no evidence of that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 16:24:50
subject: <b>Three is possible!</b>
body:
I do agree that Moridin and Fain are probably two of them.  They both seem to have a lot of infuence and luck on their side.  Plus, I believe Shadar Haran may be the other.  He definitely has a lot of the DO's luck and influence on the world.


created: 2001-10-03 18:02:32
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Good idea. I never really thought about that. However, I believe that the books say that Ta'veren have some of the LEAST choice in the matter. They are tools of the pattern.  We don't see our three Ta'veren just cruising around doing what they please.  Often times, they do things because they feel like something is pushing them to do it, like something else is moving their legs.  They just kind of ride the flow.  And i think that Rand has the least choices of all.  Remember the end of tGH when Mat blows the horn.  They were all kind of in a trance doing the patterns bidding.  Those events just had to happen.


created: 2001-10-03 18:25:36
subject: <b>Ishy Fain and Shaddar Haran</b>
body:
I think Fain is a definite possibility.  It has been pretty well established that you are not ta'veren from birth to death, but that they only have a great influence for a time.  <br /><br />Evidence:<br />Fain may have not been Ta'veren before Shadar Logoth, but since then he has:<br />1.  Stolen the horn of Valera<br />2.  Killed Aes Sedai and Ashamen<br />3.  Escaped capture times beyond count (very very lucky)<br />4.  Had audiences with the DO himself<br />5.  Almost killed Rand more times than I can count.<br />6.  He has an increadible ability to frighten even Fades now.<br />7.  He somehow makes those things that are like zombies.  example:  the swordmaster Rand fights in the tent right before Fain slashes him.<br />8.  He is a very central character put directly opposite our heroes from the begginning<br /><br />Shadar Haran.  I like the Idea of him also being Ta'veren.  We know almost nothing about him though, but even the forsaken are afraid of him and he is obviously very special.  He seems to be the left hand of the DO in the Pit of Doom.<br /><br />As a Final Battle,  I think a great focus for the battle would be the three heroes: Mat, Rand, and Perrin.  Faceing of against the three mentioned before.<br /><br />Rand vs Ishy in a crazy battle of the Power<br />Mat vs Fain in a crazy battle of Luck<br />Perrin vs Shadar Haran in a crazy battle of champion of nature vs champion of the unnatural.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 18:45:50
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
Another thing I thought of which I forgot to mention as support is the whole theme of the series.  <br />Throughout the whole series we see the constant theme of balance.  <br />I think you see this in many places:<br /> <br />Light vs dark <br />trollocs vs people <br />dreadlords vs Ais Sedai<br />Fades vs warders<br />Saidar / Saidin<br />The one power / The True power<br />DO / Creator<br />Mt Doom / Dragonmount<br /><br /><br />For most of the major groups / special people you see a similar complimentary group on the other side.  <br />Granted there are exceptions and there are many which I have left out, but for something as important as Ta'veren it seems that there should be a balance on the other side.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 19:08:30
subject: <b>I don't agree</b>
body:
Sorry, but I don't agree. You said this:<br /><br />&quot;It seems to be a terribly unbalanced fight if you have one side which has the ability to shift the pattern to it's will and another which is completely bound by the pattern.&quot;<br /><br />In fact, I believe that the light having these 3 strong ta'veren is the ONLY way for the fight to be balanced. You all seem to be forgetting that what they are fighting here is effectively a god. I can't say that I have any quotes, but I believe there have been numerous references to the Dark One trying to shape the pattern to his will. Whether he is actually a ta'veren (is that even possible?) or just doing his god-like stuff, I think he can do similar things to the pattern. How many times have we heard the phrase &quot;the Dark One's own luck&quot;? Robert Jordan doesn't often include things for no reason and I think this is an indicator as to the Dark One's ability to do things as ta'veren do. That's why I think all three ta'veren will be needed at the Last Battle...to counteract the Dark One's own &quot;luck&quot;.<br /><br />I certainly don't see it as being of an advantage to the light, it's simply balancing up the battle.<br /><br />I don't think Ishamael/Moridin is ta'veren. I suppose he could be, but I don't think we've seen enough to indicate that he is. The Hawkwing thing is impressive, but being ta'veren doesn't stop you from being tricked or influenced. I mean, Rand must be at least as strong as Hawkwing, but he can still be made to do things against his will (letting the maidans fight just one example), plus he's an extremely strong channeler! Hawkwing didn't have the channeling advantage and while I'm sure his ta'vereness stopped a random brick falling on his head, it probably wouldn't have protected him from Ishamael's trickery.<br /><br />The fact that Ishamael was only half caught was very impressive no doubt and if it was Rand we would immediately point to his being ta'veren as the reason, but sometimes luck just does happen. After all, we know LTT wasn't ta'veren, but surely the fact that almost all of the Forsaken were at the bore when it was sealed that day is a far stronger indicator than any of Ishamael's possible indicators.<br /><br />Padan Fain is another matter. Perhaps he is a weak ta'veren (although seing as he is neither on the side of the dark or light it doesn't really matter). Looking at the number of times he's almost been caught/killed by various people, but just got away...maybe.


created: 2001-10-03 19:58:36
subject: <b>I strongly disagree</b>
body:
I really don't think Ishy was/is ta'veren.  I am inclined to believe Fain might be one such, especially Mordeth, who seems to have strange powers. <br />But Ishy?  Ishy is just very crafty.  He is very not taveren.  For instance, in the Collapse, it was Ishy that understood and also told the people what they faced (the DO).  Does this sound like a taveren?  Our taveren walk around blindly even, being pushed by the pattern,  Ishy on the other hand acted knowingly of free will.  <br />And about Ishy affecting Hawkwing...    As if he couldn't have simply used Compulsion, especially with all the Aes Sedai penned up in Tar Valon.  <br />And Shaidar Haran is a Fade.  Although I don't think it is written that ta'veren have to be human, I find it unlikely that a Fade is one.  Maybe an Ogier might be, but I find  a Fade to be as likely as a trolloc.  Besides, there would be no subtlety in the story if the DO could simply make ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 22:20:55
subject: <b>Ummm... You guys....</b>
body:
when the pattern becomes unbalanced, it throws itself into a 'safe mode' and spins out Ta'Veren. the stronger the ta'veren, or the more there are, means the more the pattern is out of alignment. Ta'veren are just the run of the mill people. They have the freedom of Shadows, and they have a freer will than most. Just thought I'd clear that little bitty up.<br /><br />Nahj, of the Imran Sept, Shaarad Aiel


created: 2001-10-03 22:28:42
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
FACT: The books have led us to believe that taveren were tools of the pattern.  They don't have more free will, they have less.  MY IDEA: And I don't think that any darfriends are ta'veren because they already have an advantage in being evil and thus unscrupulous. They don't play by the rules. The light is restrained by honor and good, so they need a way to balance it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2001-10-03 22:35:24
subject: <b>He Who Must Shatter Poor Blackboard Comments!</b>
body:
It seem that i am doomed to go on reading blackboards by nimcompoops. The reason i read the posts are to gain insight into theories that not of my originality.*sigh* Well Here goes. Three In A Boat i wish to correct your obviously large error in your assumption that LTT was not Taveron. You my friend are sinking.Please refrain from posting your comments without thinking first. TY. Now to the meat. I must compliment the writer of this theory. It was well thought out and contemplated. I however do not agree with your reasoning. Ish could quite possibly be Taveren however there would be no reason that there needs to be three dark tavern. The reason is simple, bad guys have no scruples, Im not kidding that is all the advantage they really need. they also have the DO openly backing them while the creator seems at best to be a distant figure. The DO is enough of a challange for three taveren.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;May you live a far fairer life than I. And choose far wiser than I.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 23:59:43
subject: <b>Narg is Ta'veren</b>
body:
Lironj- it seems perfectly obvious that there is a Trolloc Ta'veren in the person of Narg. All those other pasty meat man-things are irrelevant.<br /><br />How else can anyone explain the amazing influence that Narg is able to bring to bear on the events of WoTworld?<br /><br />oh, BTW, no, I don't think that there should be DF Ta'veren. DO is the embodiment of anti-pattern-ness, Ta'veren are focal points of the pattern. The DO wants to manipulate and damage the 'good' Ta'veren to recreate the pattern in his own image, therefore he shouldn't need any of his 'own'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 00:41:07
subject: <b>Another one to add to the dark three</b>
body:
... not saying I agree mind you, but if there should turn out to be 3 dark Taveren then I think that Ishy, and Fain would be two of them. The third might be Slayer. It would somehow seem fitting to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 02:51:45
subject: <b>Ta'veren Have Less Free Will</b>
body:
They are more tightly bound by the wheel then normal folks. The Ta'veren do not have more free will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />SPAMETHEUS<br /><br />Spam God!!!<br />Spam Maestro!!!<br />Spammer Extordinaire!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 06:22:06
subject: <b>Ooooh, sooorry ::raises handbag::</b>
body:
Is LTT ta'veren? If this is mentioned in the guide or something then I apologise for my error, I do not own the guide so I could not check it. However, I do not believe that throughout any of the books it is mentioned that LTT is ta'veren. I even checked the encyclopedia on this very site and it didn't mention him being ta'veren, you'd think it would if he was. It's not like he could have gotten away with hiding it either, we know that even in the relatively primitive world of modern day Randland at least Suian, Logain and Nicola can see ta'veren, so in the AoL where the Talents were no doubt spotted much earlier on, he'd have been known. If he had been ta'veren it strange that Moiraine compares Rand in his ta'veren strength to Hawkwing when surely LTT would have been a better comparison given Rand's links to him. I may well have assumed that he wasn't ta'veren (and perhaps I was wrong, perhaps I was right), but I am in no way &quot;sinking&quot; as the rest of my post doesn't really on that at all, I was mearly giving an example of extraordinary things happening to those who are non-ta'veren (or so I thought).


created: 2001-10-04 07:44:34
subject: <b>The Pattern</b>
body:
It has been said in the books that the pattern spins out Ta'veren whenever in needs to pull itself back into balance. Moraine said in one of the early books. tDR I think, that pattern is neither good or evil, it just is. I believe that with the bore weakening, and the DO touching the pattern, the pattern had to do something to restore it's balance, to it spun out it's 3 Ta'veren. <br /><br />There could possibly be Dark Friend Ta'veren, just not in this point in time, because before our three hereos were born, the pattern was starting to favour the dark. Maybe if the pattern was to favourably good, it would spin out Ta'veran darkfriends. Maybe that's how the bore was made in the first place?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 13:35:15
subject: <b>Gills cat, I like what you have to say</b>
body:
That is a very good possibility and I like it.  Maybe in some ages/turnings ishy is the focal point instead to sway the pattern back the other way.  I totally agree with you that the pattern is neutral.  I think that is is kind of just the battle ground for the forces of light and dark.  But I don't want to get all metaphysical on you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 15:05:08
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I also like GC's comments on the pattern being neutral. However, I'd just thought I'd say that it's unlikely that it was dark ta'veren who created the bore as Lanfear isn't ta'veren. However, I believe there is a theory that Mordeth was the man she did it with which would in turn (if it's true) lend itself to the Fain theory.


created: 2001-10-04 18:38:42
subject: <b>Gills Cat - Excellent Point!</b>
body:
I would have to say that the entire reason Rand, Mat, and Perrin were spun out in the first place - the function for which they exist - was to counter-balance the Shadow's growing momentum.  As I'm sure several have stated above, a paramount theme in tWoT is that all things in existence must remain in a natural, constant and flowing balance.  <br /><br />If the Shadow (or for lack of a better word, Evil) begins to exert excessive influence and disrupts the natural balance of the Pattern, the Wheel will utilize its regulating mechanism: ta&#8217;veren.   Now I think at some point when the Seals were weakening, when the Forsaken were escaping, and the Dark One&#8217;s chaotic touch was growing in the world, that the Wheel activated its &#8220;internal regulator&#8221; and out popped our three lucky heroes.  Well, I guess they actually became ta&#8217;veren at 17 or 18, and I&#8217;m not sure I would call their distinction &#8220;luck&#8221;.<br /><br />Anyway, they are around to shift the balance back towards the Light.  I think that the DO HIMSELF gaining greater and greater strength in the world MORE than negates any so called &#8216;unfair advantage&#8217; the Light would receive from having the Big Three on it&#8217;s side.  I mean, damn, Shaitan is for all intents and purposes a terrifyingly powerful god, with the ability to remake all of existence in his own dark image.   I see no reason that the Shadow would HAVE to have three dark ta&#8217;veren to maintain a proper balance in the Pattern.  <br /><br />Just look at what the Dark One himself is capable of:<br /><br />1) Through his mere will and presence he can spread chaos and confusion, corrupting the minds of mortals with intolerance and suspicion.  Entire nations and societies have been torn apart by civil wars and persecution with tens of thousands killed and millions displaced as a DIRECT result of his touching the Pattern.<br /><br />2) The weather itself rebels to suit him, so that summer broils unceasingly for half the year and winter freezes the land solid without hope of a spring to rescue what crops have survived.  Hunger and famine afflict millions more. <br /><br />3) Death is no more than a game for Shaitan as he resurrects his most powerful minions to serve him from beyond the grave.<br /><br />4) He has warped and twisted an entire landscape.   The Blight is now decayed and toxic and completely uninhabitable for mankind.  He can even overcome the principles of time and physics near his mountainous lair.  The substance and matter around Shayol Ghul itself is but clay for his deft fingers.  <br /><br />5) With his aid, entirely new species of horrible, bloodthirsty monsters are spawned continuously to form the bulk of his vast armies.  Many millions of half-human fiends sate their lust for slaughter and carnage at his command.<br /><br />These number just a few of the terrifying abilities Shaitan HIMSELF possesses.  Who knows what else such a being is capable of?   I would put forward that the Pattern requires no additional support for the Shadow in the form of ta&#8217;veren.  I&#8217;d say the DO himself is as great a force as all the ta&#8217;veren that have ever lived.  Greater, if ever he is freed.  <br /><br />Now I&#8217;m not saying that there ARE no dark ta&#8217;veren, I just want to make clear that the Pattern does not necessarily REQUIRE any such individuals, and certainly not THREE, to make up for some &#8216;unfair advantage&#8217;.  The Shadow had the &#8216;unfair advantage&#8217; until OUR Three showed up and started setting things aright. <br /><br />Having just said that, I do believe that Ishy/Morriden is very likely ta&#8217;veren.  He is after all the Shadow&#8217;s great champion, destined to fight this battle again and again until the end of time (or at least until he finally freakin&#8217; wins).  He is pitted up against Dragon almost personally each time around, so it would make since that not only the supreme leader of the Light is ta&#8217;veren, but the leader of the Shadow is as well.  <br /><br />Both his apparent partial escape from the Bore, and his powerful influence on Artur Hawkwing (a ta&#8217;veren of great strength himself) go a long way as support for such a theory, in my book at least.<br /><br />BTW, Three In A Boat, I&#8217;m almost sure it states in the &#8220;Strike on Shayol Ghul&#8221; excerpt from the guide that appears on the internet, if not the guide itself, oddly enough, something to the effect that LTT was the most powerful ta&#8217;veren in recorded history, and that his attack with the Hundred Companions on the Bore was the single most influential event of the Age, possible of any Age.   We all know what happened to the world after that strike.  <br /><br />If someone has the Internet version &#8220;The Strike&#8230;&#8221; handy could you please check that baby; I don&#8217;t like to misinterpret something I&#8217;ve read several months ago.  I think that the Dragon - the World Breaker - is always going to be ta&#8217;veren; LTT, Rand, or whoever, just as I think he will always be male.   But that&#8217;s something completely off the subject.  Hm&#8230; I think I feel a Theory Post coming on&#8230;  <br /><br />Well anyway, good job Burasco.  Your theory was well presented, if a little over-speculative.  I&#8217;d be pleased if mine came out so well. And to receive so much popularity!  Damn, I&#8217;ll have to make my next one good.<br /><br />I&#8217;d really like to know if it is proven that LTT was ta&#8217;veren.  So if anyone can find that Internet story, please let me know.<br /><br />Good thoughts all around.  You guys make this very interesting!<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />The Great Lord on the Jon<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-10-05 01:06:59
subject: <b>Mordeth=Beidomon???</b>
body:
Three in a boat, I think not.<br />Mordeth belongs in Aridhol. Beidomon existed a 'long time' (technical term there...) before that, when the bore was drilled. Can you point me (and anyone else who hasn't seen the link) to a theory on this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 05:47:07
subject: <b>Actually....no</b>
body:
Sorry, I don't have a link to that theory, I read it a while ago and I think it was on a different site. I suppose there could be a similar theory on this site, but that's not where I read it.<br /><br />Oh, and here the link to the Strike, http://www.tor.com/shayol.html and it doesn't mention ta'veren at all. I still can't believe that nothing would have survived (even stories) that would mention such a strong ta'veren, but there is that possibility. It all really depends upon whether being ta'veren is connected to souls or not.


created: 2001-10-05 07:31:47
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
I think that the idea that the pattern can spin out light and dark ta'veren is really interesting.  I don't think any dark ta'varen would have been spun out in Rand's age, because the balance of the world had been tilted towards evil, and the ta'veren were needed to correct the balance.  However, there was a time when dark ta'veren could have been spun out.  The Age of Legends!  That was a time of unparalleled &quot;goodness&quot;, so the pattern would have wanted to correct this balance as well.  So, who would the dark ta'veren be?  Ishy is a good guess for one.  I would also say Lanfear, since she was the one who led the group that bored into the Dark One's prison.  Though she may not have been &quot;evil&quot; at the time, that may not have been necessary for her to have been a dark ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 11:10:08
subject: <b>Ta'varen and the Pattern</b>
body:
The Pattern will always oppose the dark as it stands for order and continuity. The DO wants to break the wheel and 'let the Lord of Chaos rule' hence the pattern will oppose this with ta'varen. This does not contradict the idea that the pattern is neither good nor evil, it is just opposing the dark, and like Aridhol this does not make it good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 12:51:56
subject: <b>Lord of Chaos</b>
body:
God Is Dead, I think what the DO meant when he told Dem to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; was to leave the Dragon Reborn to his path and great chaos and confusion shall spread across the world.  The light knows that Rand brings sweeping change and upheaval, HE is the Lord of Chaos.


created: 2001-10-05 13:07:33
subject: <b>And Damn it, no proof there. But LTT Had to be Ta'veren</b>
body:
Well, what do you guys think?  Was Lews Therin Tellamon Ta'veren back in the Age of Legends?  He was the Dragon and World Breaker.<br /><br />Please, everybody weigh in on this one.  I'd like to see the consensus on this.<br /><br />LTT ta'veren or not?


created: 2001-10-05 13:51:42
subject: <b>Not bound by the pattern...</b>
body:
The dark ones ultimate goal is to break free of his prison, well his prison is in a way the pattern, the pattern steers events to maintain the everlasting cycle, the turning of the wheel. Thus The dark ones champions aswell as the DO himself may have the ability to sidestep the pattern, to place themselves on a plane where they are not influenced by the patterns swirls, at least not directly....


created: 2001-10-05 14:25:10
subject: <b>Ermmm....not.</b>
body:
I think probably not. I'm certainly not saying definitely not, Robert Jordan may well be waiting till later on to reveal that he is. I just don't think it's likely that he could have been ta'veren to the same degree that Rand is without mention of it being made yet. I mean, surely Moiraine would have known that LTT was ta'veren if he was (she would have researched a lot about him given her quest), and I believe we would have heard about it somehow in the books. Then again I'm well aware that many things got lost during the breaking, so perhaps the information that LTT was ta'veren has been lost. But the Dragon is such a massive figure in this world and so many stories are told about him, you'd think something as big as this would have been remembered. Then again there is of course the possibility that he was ta'veren for a short amount of time (when the pattern most needed him, the Strike so that the Forsaken would be there) as we know the &quot;ability&quot; is not something permanent through life.<br /><br />I would think it more likely that he was ta'veren for a short while rather than all the time. I still think he wasn't though. Perhaps this would make a good vote for the main page.


created: 2001-10-05 16:52:31
subject: <b>Ta'veren... Draw the line.</b>
body:
I don't think that he was.<br /><br />This is pure speculation but sticking with the theme that the pattern uses Ta'veren to right itself back to a balance:<br /><br />During the age of legends Dark Ta'veren would have been needed to get the War under way.  <br /><br />I doubt that Lanfear was Ta'veren because the one thing which all of the Ta'veren have in common that we know of is that they are Increadibly charismatic leaders.  Maybee reluctant, but they are.<br />Rand Mat Perrin Hawkwing and I think... Ishy  <br /><br />During their time they were all very influential and vital to the War.  They had an amazing amount of influence upon their time.  The question I guess is where do you draw the line between a great leader and Ta'veren?  <br />During The war, someone was needed to build the dark from the ground up.  This would need more than charisma  we need a ta'veren!<br /> <br />The Light was already established and had great leaders.  Unfortunatly that time period is not dwelt upon in the books at all.  I think that if it was you would have seen Ishy gathering nations and recruiting spectacular heros for the dark (the forsaken).  Much like Rand is doing now because he is having to build a unified front against the dark.  <br /><br />Once the war was under way you have the tide going back and forth.  (I don't remember where this is at in the books) until it becomes obvious that the longer it goes on, the more likely it is the shadow will win.  This means the pattern is becoming unbalanced.  So it chooses a light Ta'veren to right itself, and reduces the influence of the dark Ta'veren, but not nesecarily.  He could have just been a great leader who did what had to be done.  Perhaps at that point in the war the Power of Ishy's Ta'verenness was wearing off or lagging such as Hawkwings did toward the end of his life.<br /><br />I would also like to see LTT as Ta'veren put to a vote on the main page.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 17:09:26
subject: <b>Opinions change</b>
body:
I must say since the posting of this my opinions twords the Idea of Dark Ta'veren have been changed by all of the great feedback.<br /><br />Yes they are possible, but the characters such as Fain would be a poor choice.  He does not shake the foundations of nations like all our other Ta'veren (Mat Seanchan/Ebou Dar, Hawkwing had his empire, Perrin reunites Manetheren and the borderlands through faile) .His only importance seems to be his link to Rand.  Without Rand, what would he be doing?  Selling wares in the two rivers probably.  <br /><br />Shadar Haran we don't know enough about.<br /><br />Ishy I think is an example of former Ta'veren glory.  He may even regain that status if the Lights victory at the last battle is too complete.  Who knows?  I think that if Jordan wanted to write a follow up series to this one, the story of the Age of Legends, the drilling of the bore and the rise of darkness would be an increadible read.  Plus he could milk the world for a few more bucks.  It wouldn't even matter that we know how it turns out.  Kind of like Star Wars.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 13:06:39
subject: <b>Two very important things</b>
body:
1) people aren't born ta'veren and don't necessarily die ta'veren.  It is a temporary thing.  Therefore, there is no reason to assume that LTT was Ta'veren except for the fact that he was prominent on the World Stage.  Siuan Sanche is (was) also prominent, but she was not Ta'veren.<br /><br />2) there is no reason to believe that there can't be dark ta'veren.  What if the pattern goes out of line towards good?  What if the DO mucks up the pattern to think it needs dark Ta'veren?  Most importantly, with Hawkwing it was proven that Ta'veren could do evil, could be influenced.  Therefore, it is possible for Ta'veren to turn to the dark side.  We've seen it happen (he was tricked, but it happened nonetheless), so it must be possible.<br /><br />And what if a dark ta'veren jumped out of a portal stone into wotworld prime?  The Dark Dragon could sure much things up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 01:29:26
subject: <b>Ta'veren 'temp' &amp; 'good' pattern</b>
body:
1.  I'm confused as to the assertion that Ta'veren-ness can be temporary. Is there a proper theory on this one that can determine this one way or the other?<br /><br />2.  Ta'veren serve the pattern. They are neither 'good' nor 'bad' the reason that they will (exclusively I'd think) be 'good' is that the DO's purpose is to destroy the pattern and remake it in his image. The pattern needs to spit Ta'veren out periodically to counteract the DO. It follows then that, given the BWB definition of the DO as evil personified, that Ta'veren will be good. So, there is no need for dark Ta'veren b/v the DO is ALWAYS operating to sunder the pattern apart.<br />It's like having a refrigerator that can heat things up. Why would you want a refrigerator that can heat things up, its whole purpose is to cool things down. Same as TV, their point in life is to realign the pattern, WHY would there be a TV (created by the pattern), whose express purpose is to destroy the pattern???<br />Makes no sense at all. Can we finish with this thread?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 07:29:38
subject: <b>Temp</b>
body:
No we can't, because you asked a question. Anyway, it was Moiraine who said to Rand (and maybe Mat and Perrin, I forget) that he is ta'veren and who knows how long for and stuff like that. I don't have a quote, but she definitely seemed confident that you are only ta'veren for the time the pattern needs you.


created: 2001-10-11 20:52:39
subject: <b>Perhaps &quot;Dark Ta'veren&quot; would be . . .</b>
body:
Those who unravel the Pattern, like the DO.  <br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 10:41:08
subject: <b>Dark Ta'veren</b>
body:
I doubt that there are Dark Ta'veren.<br /><br />Ta'veren are used by the pattern to correct mistakes in the weave. That there are now three strong Ta'veren shows thatt he weave is deviating strongly, and the fact that they are 'good' shows that the pattern is working against the Dark One.<br /><br />However - there is Ishy. He did twist Hawkwing. Could it be that Ishy is Ta'veren but that he was supposed to help LTT? That the DO turned a Ta'veren to his cause could explain certain events....perhaps the sealing of the bore was not supposed to lead to the Breaking, but that dramatic event occurred becasue Ishy was not at LTTs side.<br /><br />Maybe Hawkwing was supposed to end the Third Age and lead to a sealing of the bore, but Ishy again stopped that. In effect, a Ta'veren isorking against the Pattern.<br /><br />Now we could have three Ta'veren being spun out to realign the Pattern. Maybe the pattern is deviating widely.....could this mean the last Last Battle is possible?<br /><br />Of course, this is mere speculation and we have no real proof that Ishy is Ta'veren. Indeed, there is only limited evidence and remember, there are people who can see Ta'veren.<br /><br />Is Ishy Ta'veren?...I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-20 12:15:10
subject: <b>Ta'veren Balance</b>
body:
Hey, here's a thought.  if there is to be a balance in everything, which is pretty well accepted around here, what happens to our three ta'verens when the Last Battle is over?  <br />We hope that Light triumphs and a blance is restored.  Therefore, there is no need for the pattern to retain its ta'veren-pattern menders.<br />Will all three die?  Will they just up and stop being Ta'veren?  It is prophesized that Rand will &quot;die&quot; but there is lots of speculation as to what exactly will happen.  But we really have no clue as to what happens to the other guys.  <br />I would hate to see Perrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> just end up as a blacksmith/lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> in the 2 rvrs, and Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> going on to be some sort of gleeman/theif <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />, and who knows what happens to Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> .<br />What do you all think?


created: 2002-04-12 01:55:12
subject: <b>weak already</b>
body:
We also have to remember that the pattern only makes ta'verens when it needs to and that someone doesn't have to be one all of their life, only when the pattern needs them.  Also why does the DO need Ta'verens think about it Rand and friends are already starting out at a hanycap.  Where all of the Forsaken are knowledgable about channeling Rand is started out new and is still outnumbered.  Mat and Perrin probably have their own equals.  For Perrin probably the Slayer and for Mat I'm only guessing the golam since the Slayer hunts wolves and has only sparred off against Perrin and the Golam has been hurt and sparred off with Mat.  Fain I think is a chaos element that will fight both sides.


created: 2002-06-26 11:41:00
subject: <b>Mrydraal</b>
body:
... or, in particular, one specific Mrydraal. Saidar Haran <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> is the DO's champion, or Ta'veren. He seems to swirl the pattern around him, and if I remember correctly, several of the forsaken commented on feeling some sort of disturbance when SH was near them.


created: 2002-09-07 18:56:46
subject: <b>slayer...</b>
body:
earlier on somebody commented on the possibility of slayer being dark ta'veren(if there is such a thing) and that seemed to get lost in the shuffle.  i'd just like to say that that makes more sense to me than having shadar haran being dark ta'veren.  <br />If we were to make the assumption that there are dark ta'veren,(i'm not saying whether there are or there aren't, i'm just saying if), and if there were three dark to balance the three light(once again, not saying whether or not, just saying if), and since we are still going with the idea of balance, then each of the three would have to balance each other.<br />So you have Rand, the dragon, who is the greatest channeller.  If you want someone to balance him out, Ishy/Moridin does make sense.  the two do balance out in many ways.<br />You have mat, who because of his amulet is definitely not affected by saidar, and possibly not by saidin or the true power, either.  he also has tremendous luck, and was once connected with shadar logoth through the daggar.  padan fain does make a good balance, as he too is not a channller, is often very lucky, and is connected with shadar logoth, still through the daggar.  also, since it seems possible that fain has gained new powers through his connection with shadar logoth, it might be possible for these powers to not work on mat, not because of the amulet, but because mat was once connected to shadar logoth.(that last point was just a shot in the dark, i haven't read the books in around 6 months, and i dont' have them here with me to see if there's been an encounter between the two where fain tries out his new powers on mat)<br />then there's perrin, a dreamwalker, a wolfbrother, and blacksmith, which even if you don't believe the whole perrin-as-builder theory, does make him a builder in one sense.  How would shadar haran balance against these?  i suppose he might have the power to, and we just haven't seen it yet, but it doesn't seem in charachter with RJ, especially when we have slayer.  slayer is also a dreamwalker, and is the antithesis of a wolfbrother(by killing wolves).  also, the word to slay does not simply mean kill.  it implies absolute destruction, or close to it, of whatever is slain.  quite a balance to the builder-idea of perrin.  <br />sorry this is off the topic of what's being discussed on the blackboard, but i thought the comment about the possibility of slayer being dark ta'veren deserved some discussion.


created: 2003-02-12 19:51:01
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
This is the first thing i ever posted so bear with me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> i disagree because its been stated throughout WOT (sorry i dont have exact quotes) that the DO works OUTSIDE the pattern, and is effectivley trying to destroy it. So whilst there may well be ta'veren allied to the dark I don't believe the DO went out of his way to recruit them, and I doubt Ishy would be one without us having found out by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Please Captain Feathersword, no more tickling&quot;<br />&quot;No more tickling Greg? well, we'll have to do a pirate dance then!&quot;<br />&quot;A pirate dance? Great idea Captain!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-13 17:48:20
subject: <b>Dark Ta'veren</b>
body:
Well.  I have another reply.<br /><br />The three Ta'veren, rand, Mat, and Perrin, are on the side of the Light.<br />The DO is on the side of the Dark with his minions.<br />I think the DO is THE Dark Ta'veren.  Look.  He can affect the weather, and communicate with the World, and his influence will only get stronger.  remember the Bubbles of Evil?  If he can control the Pattern that much, That is more than the other three combined.  His minions are so lucky and have so much influence because they are linked to him.<br />But I think any more Dark Ta'veren is impossible, bacause with the DO as strong as he is now, and he's just geting stronger towards the Last Battle, and there are probably certain other minor Ta'veren on the Light side.  Egwene for example.  or Nynaeve.  Or even Loial (I know that's a stretch).  But to defeat the DO, there has to be more strength on the Light side to balance the power.  With the White Tower and Black Tower and Ta'veren working for the light, but the DO and the Forsaken and Fain and Moridin and Shadowspawn of all sorts and Minions the Light is going to be hard-pressed as it is.


created: 2004-10-04 00:44:42
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Ishamael a ta'veren...there's an interesting idea.  What is the age range on Ishy - LTT?  If Ishy was spit out to balance the &quot;too-good&quot; AOL and then LTT was ejected to bring the Pattern back to balance, that might explain some things.  Ishy is convinced that he and LTT have been champions for the Shadow/Light since the beginning of time.  The other Forsaken think that Ishy's mad, but, remember, Ishy IS the only one of the Chosen who know the DO's supreme plan to unmake the Pattern and everything.  He knows that HE PERSONALLY will get nothing out of the DO's victory...and yet he STILL follows him?  I don't see any alternative, really, except for him being a dark ta'veren.<br /><br />The Forsaken (and Ishy included) being trapped in the Bore was probably just an unforseen event...Ishy still running around in Randland is probably why the Light always seems so pitiful next to everything (remember how confident Ishy is in the sha'rah POV).  That's why the DO/Ishy (who have the SAME goals and motivations, remember) are so sure of victory this time around.


created: 2006-08-13 00:04:05
subject: <b>Not Fain</b>
body:
Siuan has the talent for seeing Taveren, and I am sure once or twice Siuan has seen him. Also he isn't the luckiest is he? Losing the horn being one good example.


created: 2001-10-04 16:53:11
subject: <b>You have it a little backwards</b>
body:
The second split you mentioned actually happened before the first, that is because Rand is seeing earlier and earlier lives.  The second split was the tinkers, and there were only two splits, the first creating the tinkers, the second the fighting Aiel, and the Jenn Aiel were the ones who stayed the course and created Rhuidean, then died out.


created: 2001-10-04 17:28:47
subject: <b>Who knows the song</b>
body:
I think the more important question is, who will teach the Tinker's the song?  I believe it will be the Aiel men, who never sing except over someone's grave.  I'm sure all the clan leaders remember and know the song.  I also believe that the Ogier know the song.  I see this playing a critical part in the battle against the Dark One since we saw in Rand's visions of Aiel history how the song brought new life to the world and an end of battle.   The key to the song though is that the person singing it has to be absent of of violence in his heart.  That is why the Aiel, who know the song, can not make things grow, but when the Tinkers learn it, it shall be fruitful.


created: 2001-10-04 18:29:37
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
... I agree fully with Haplo48, you got it all wrong.<br />Besides, the inhabitants of Tremalking is NOT the same as the Sea Folk.<br />The inhabitants of Tremalking makes the fine porcelain and does not leave their island, but the Sea Folk are born on their ships I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 18:34:29
subject: <b>I also agree with Haplo48</b>
body:
I always thought the 2 splittings were the present day (fighting) Aiel and the Tinkers.  The Jenn Aiel built Rhuidean, and then died.  <br /><br />Nice try though.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 19:54:12
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I agree with the other Black board posts that it's doubtful if the splits you are talking about really made the Aiel into three.<br /><br />BUT. I DO believe the people of Tremalking (who are NOT of the Sea Folk) come from the Aiel (although we don't know exactly how). It's not a far-fetched theory at all, and it's also one that has quite some support (I have seen it several times). In fact, I would bet that that's where &quot;the song&quot; will be found eventually, now that the Time of Illusion is finally at an end...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 20:54:38
subject: <b>Songs and whatnot</b>
body:
before i go into anything: The ogier will teach the tinkers their songs.<br /><br />once there were a people called the Aiel.  After the breaking of the world, they started on a journey to ruidhean with aes sedai and ter'angreal.  eventually, one group broke off to become the tinkers.  the remaining group splintered further into the Jenn and what we know as the aiel today.  The jenn aiel and their aes sedai died after ruidhean was built.  The aiel and the tinkers are still around.  I don't think there is any link between the amayer (tremalking's porcelain-working inhabitants) and the aiel.  and yes, true blue sea folk, the ones that everyone on the mainland knows about (no one knows about the amayar) are almost always born at sea.  If a sea folk woman is about to give birth on land, she will go as far as to paddle out to sea in a paddle boat to give birth.<br /><br />YEAH.


created: 2001-10-05 00:17:20
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
It's entirely possible that the inhabitants of tremalking were once Aiel. We only saw the splits that created the current aiel, the tinkers and the Jenn, but who's to say that the Tinkers didn't do some split of their own? Maybe a group of them travelled to Tremalking via the sea folk to find the song, and ended up staying?<br /><br />Also, regarding the song, I think for the song to work, it has to have all the original races who used to sing it, which were the Ogier, the Aiel and the Nym. I think each race knows part of the song, but not enough on their own for it to work. Maybe there's a bunch of Nym living on Tremalking, with the Aiel decendants and all they're waiting for is the Ogier. I think the end of the time of illusions is going to be a telling sign for this argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 02:03:07
subject: <b>The other Aiel?</b>
body:
Does my memory fail me, or wasn't there several Aiel groups in the AOL, as the Aiel were always serving the Aes Sedai then?<br /><br />Presen day Aiel == The People of The Dragon, right? Now, who was the Dragon? Yup, Lews Therin, the Tamyrlin, maybe the foremost Aes Sedai of his own time. Doesn't it make sense that the present day Aiel and those past Aiel seen in Rhuidean were somehow connected to him? Or were they from the city he lived in? I'm sure there were many cities and many Aiel that time.<br /><br />So what happened to the rest of the Aiel? Were they destroyed in their brave pacifism, refusing to fight but trying to save the male Aes Sedai going mad, singing to them so that they would remember who they were, all the while the mAS were torching them, balefiring them and what not?<br /><br />Most probably were destroyed, but maybe some fleed? Old people, with children, perhaps? They weren't all fleeing in the same direction in the mess of the world gone mad, maybe some fleed to sea and became the Amayar.<br /><br />It is even possible that the Sea Folk and Amayar were a pair like Aiel/Jenn Aiel; Sea Folk staying to sea and becoming violent in their fight for survival, Amayar keeping to the islands and staying pacifists. That would also explain why Sea Folk still protect Amayar.<br /><br />-Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 07:28:51
subject: <b>The Ogier won't teach the tinkers the song.</b>
body:
In book one, i believe, loial mentions that he met tinkers in the stedding and taught them the songs he uses to sing to the trees.  I would say that, as they go to steddings quite often, surely they would have been taught all the songs the ogier knew over the years so how will the ogier find the song?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Warder to the Fantabulous Missa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Drinker of spirits <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Eternal watcher of the Damned <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Evil Git <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Chief of the movement for Narg Superiority <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 09:51:47
subject: <b>The Amayar</b>
body:
It seems to me that it had been determined some time back that the Amayar were indeed a branch-off of the Aiel. The connections between the Water Way and the Way of the Leaf, the saying that spurred this thread (&quot;All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, and the historical references of the Aiel separating during the Breaking which mention some taking to the water and never being seen again.<br /><br />Additionally, the Amayar consider themselves to be living in a 'time of Illusion', or something like that, and when one of the Amayar people sees the female half of the Choeden Kal glowing like the sun, automatically presumes that the end of the illusion is coming. How close is this philosophy to the Aiel concept that this life is a dream, and that what we call death is simply waking from the dream? To close to not be related, knowing RJ's twining of symbologies.<br /><br />As for the song, we still don't know how or when the tinker's song will be restored, but it is most assuredly the song of the Dashain Aiel, from before the breaking. The Ogier songs such as Loial knows form things from wood, and help keep things alive, but aren't quite the same as those sung in the fields with the Nym. Perhaps the Amayar still have them, perhaps not. I can't recall off hand if anything about the Amayar discusses their agricultural skills, but if anyone on Tremalking has any it would need to be them, not the Atha'an Miere.<br /><br />Who knows, maybe the Seanchan Ogier still have the old songs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 13:10:09
subject: <b>Thank you Haplo</b>
body:
It is very possible that the Tremalkers are descended from the Aiel (perhaps ones that weren't charged with gathering artifacts?) but this theory has the premise entirely wrong.  The Tinkers were the first to fall from grace, then the fighter Aiel.  The lost Jenn Aiel were the truly dedicated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 19:00:53
subject: <b>The Dragon's Aiel are dead.</b>
body:
When Lews went mad in TEOTW, he killed everyone around him, servents, his children, friends, and yes even his wife.  This leads me to believe that all of his personal Aiel died.  However, all of the Aiel had taken on the name of &quot;The People of the Dragon.&quot;  So any Aiel left were &quot;his&quot; people.  When the Aiel were rounded up and given their job by the Aes Sedai, the world was in termoil.  People were already dead and many were almost defenitly missing.  (Also, does it not say that this was all they could get.  sorry i don't have a book with me)  So the Aiel leave on their journey.  Flash ahead to book four.  When the girls get on the sea folk ship, they learn about the sea folk history.  It is stated that they took to the ships for safety.  I always beleived that was at the end of the AOL.  If so, they either had Aiel on them or were made up completly by Aiel, since Aiel are noncombatents.  (In history, noncombatents are always shipped off for safety.)(Yes, I realize the Aiel probably would have stayed as a delaying tatic, but if push came to shove, they probably would leave with everyone else.)  So, in order to shorten this much longer than expected comment, the Sea Folk came from these refugees or from the Aiel like the Jenn's split in the waste.  This might explain the relationships between the two people(Sea Folk and the Islanders).<br />sorry about the length of this comment.  hope it helped<br /><br />Cai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /> this is just fiction, this is just fiction, this is... NO!! NOT YOU...  <br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-08 01:17:40
subject: <b>Straight from the BWB</b>
body:
The BWB states quite clearly that the Sea folk are grouped by 'Clan and Sept'... sounds like another group of people we all know and love doesn't it?<br /><br />Given the 'way of the Leaf' is a 'broken' version of the Aiel code, then the 'water way' is just as likely to be a derivative of the Aiel way of life.<br /><br />Good theory, brought up lots of interest &amp; speculation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 02:52:05
subject: <b>The language link</b>
body:
Great theory.<br /><br />I like how you used the language link. RJ did the language trick before, when we heard both the Aiel and the Tinkers call the DO &quot;Leafblighter&quot;. I think this is probably another case of that.


created: 2001-10-08 20:54:57
subject: <b>Size matters.</b>
body:
Like everyone else, I can't remember where this is from, but the Amayar are short people, and cannot be related to the Aiel. They too will have lived in isolation like the Aiel, and their physical characteristics are unlikely to change. I prefer to think that the Sea Folk are decended, but this is unlikely, as they use swords and have very few traces of pacifism. Both the Aiel and the Tua'athan show strong signs of the past, and the Tinkers were in close proximity to cultures that would change their beliefs. The Sea Folk have been isolated too. Byt he way, the Tinkers cannot find the song, for there would be no use for it, as there are no more Nym to weave the songs together. Why find a useless song? Not every plot line will be resolved, and this is one that cannot.


created: 2001-10-10 05:41:37
subject: <b>The Actual Saangreal</b>
body:
o.k  the aiel looked after all the objects of power right? well who do u think took the statue to tremalking in the first place, i think there is a strong possibility they are indeed aiel<br /><br />EoK


created: 2001-10-11 15:10:04
subject: <b>The song...</b>
body:
... is the song they sang to make crops. The statue is on Tremalking because of the shifting during the breaking. I believe the Sea Folk have nothing to do with the Aiel, since the second (or first) splitting was, as has been pointed out, the Travelling People.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 11:06:51
subject: <b>My Take</b>
body:
It seems to me that if the Tremalking folk are descended from the Aiel, and the Sea Folk are NOT Tremalkingers, then this quote implies a strong enough link between Tremalking and the Sea Folk that the Sea Folk have picked up Tremalking phrases.  The best idea I've heard so far is the idea of a Sea Folk/Tremalkers parallel with Aiel/Jenn Aiel.  <br />The evidence seems pretty good to me.  I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 13:53:07
subject: <b>Thae current aiel, tinkers,and the jenn</b>
body:
if you notice when Rand is going throught the columns he starts at the most recent event and goes further back in time.<br />so the first split is between the aiel that still wish to serve the aes sedai and the aiel that want to search for the songs that they used to sing(the tinkers).<br />then they spit again into the aiel that wont touch any weapons(the third group)and the other that wont touch a sword(the aiel).<br />that third group is the jenn aiel that built rhuidean.jenn means true in the old tongue.in fact they are the only aiel that stayed true to their purpose.they served aes sedai and they followed the way of the leaf until they were destroyed.<br />


created: 2002-03-10 11:45:31
subject: <b>About the Tinkers:</b>
body:
In my opinion, the Tinkers can't really be called decendants of Aiel anymore, since we all know that a lot of yound men and women run away with the Tinkers. So the original Tinker blood must be really thin by now, with all the outsiders joining the Tinkers.


created: 2002-07-11 03:11:05
subject: <b>RE: size matters</b>
body:
Someone earlier said that because the amayar are small they couldn't be aiel, because of the isolation.  That is why they could be the aiel in the waste would have prized size because of strength usually comes with it.  The amayar on the other hand would not have needed it so it could have been bred out of them in general.


created: 2002-11-12 16:02:27
subject: <b>Three Aeil</b>
body:
I don't buy it. You don't evolve into another race in 3000 years. The Tinkers, who mingled with every nation have little Aeil blood; some would have none. If the Amayar, who were isolated, were descended from the Aeil, they would still be tall, fair-skinned blondes and redheads.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-16 08:23:11
subject: <b>i like your theory but...</b>
body:
im not sure weather i read this in one of the books or THE WORLD OF ROBERT JORDANS THE WHEEL OF TIME but the sea folk fled the main land durring the breaking of the world knowing that no land was safe and knowing nothing of the sea, so that rules out the possibility of them being related to the Aiel, but who says the Sea folk dont have dream walkers like the Aiel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I know my name<br />is spelt wrong but<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> the wheel weaves<br />as the wheel wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> to speak ill of The Wheel Of Time is blasphemy, walk in the light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-04 19:17:21
subject: <b>What about the jenn aiel?</b>
body:
You stated that there were three bodies of aiel, but you forgot about the jenn aiel. I think the tinkers are the second group that split off and that explains the aiel animosity towards them. The true aiel, or the jenn aiel, died out after starting to build rhuidean. If your theory about Tremalking is true then there would be four groups of aiel, the Jenn, the tinkers, the modern day aiel and the people of tremalking. I could be wrong on this though....


created: 2003-01-09 08:45:24
subject: <b>I think I remember...</b>
body:
I think I remember when Rand walked through the history of the Aiel the section that you are talking about. I also remember the people who left getting on ships. Perhaps in a long sea voyage there would be no tree to explain the way of the leaf so parents would resort to finding other analogies to explain their beliefs. What do you have more of than water on the Ocean. It makes sense that they would choose the way of the water.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-16 23:09:20
subject: <b>RE: Size Matters</b>
body:
Who can say how scientificly accurate RJ is trying to be here, but as far as evolution goes it IS possible that the Amayar are related to the Aiel; Even with consideration for their height. There are little things called reproductive isolation and adaption on which shall remark. Reproductive isolation is when a small portion of a species becomes isolated for long enough that over time they evolve to have different charactaristics (height) than their ancestors (take a look at Darwin's Finches). To fit adaption into that we can see that the Amayar don't need height because all they do is farm. No big battles for them hence requiring strength and long legs for speed. Most people think that evolution takes a LONG time, but for reproductive isolation to occur all you need is a few hundred years; most likely less. If my memory serves me right then we fall within the correct time frame to make this legitimate. Sorry this was so long and excuse me for not having a book handy for the exact length of time we're speaking of.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 11:24:01
subject: <b>Evolution</b>
body:
I agree whole heartedly with Cha Ayende. An isolated population evolves realativly fast. evoulving doesn't have to mean they get racial adaptions(but often it does), so they don't need anything spectacular to stand out. Mutations spread fairly rapidly in isolated population. Examples of these mutations could be darker hair and eye color, and shorter stature. these may not seem like mutations to most, but they are, and darker colors are dominant, so in 3k years, even 1k most of the population would have darker feartures.


created: 2004-07-10 10:40:58
subject: <b>Clarification.</b>
body:
I thought I'd clarify a few points and mention one thing that everyone has overlooked.<br /><br />* Yes there were Aiel in every city, lots of them, not just those who were sent into the east which became the waste.  Thousands of Aiel could have gone other ways - they could have travelled on boats (with nothing to do with the people who became Sea Folk) or they could have been trapped on islands by changing seas.<br /><br />* The Aiel sent into the east clearly only split into three groups of themselves, the modern Aiel, the Jenn and the Tinkers.  The Jenn died, the modern Aiel split into clans, septs and societies while the Tinkers split into 'caravans'.<br /><br />* The Sea Folk are split into clans and ships but not septs.  Nowhere is there a mention of Sea Folk Dreamers although this is not impossible.  <br /><br />* Three thousand years is by far enough time for a single people to divide and develop different traits.  Look at the history of the Pacific.  Waka (ships) set out from Hawaiki (not Hawai'i)  and travel south throughout the ocean populating islands one by one.  Each group left behind develops on a different path until a myriad of lingual, physical and cultural differences can be percieved.  From one people who set out now can be percieved Tongans, Samoans, Fijians, Maori and more.  This took something like a thousand years, maybe less.  So there's no reason why the Amayar can't be short while modern Aiel are tall.<br /><br />* While Aiel from the waste are 'sun-dark' they are still a 'white' genotype, so are the Tinkers and the Amayar.  The Sea Folk are a 'black' genotype.  Their skin is the darkest mentioned in the books and is found nowhere in the westlands (Randland) although black-skinned people are also found in Seanchan and perhaps Shara.  A skin pigment change takes longer than a height change to evolve/develop.  The Sea Folk are therefore not related to the Aiel, besides they have completely different histories.<br /><br />I hope this helps some people's understanding and clears up some misunderstanding.      <br />                           - Dovien Gleeman


created: 2009-07-20 08:42:59
subject: <b>The way I see it..</b>
body:
I liked the theory - mainly because I noticed the importance of that passage when I went back through tSR this last time. <br /><br />I just look at the divisions this way: First there were the Daishan Aiel with the original Way of the Leaf. From there a split divided so that what we had were some Aiel that gave up the charge the Aes Sedai and others who held onto it; both of which still follow the Way of the Leaf. Then further down in history the Aiel that kept to their charge of the Aes Sedai split again, this time into what would become the Jenn Aiel and the 'modern warrior Aiel.' <br /><br />The first division, I believe, created the foundations of Tinkers - not necessarily splitting them off into what was to become the Sea Folk. There was a good point made that there were Aiel (Daishan) all across creation - and during the breaking some were separated away onto islands. However, there is nothing to say that some of the would-be-Tinkers didn't find their way to boats. <br /><br />Interestingly in tSR, Jorin the Windfinder of Wavedancer, is telling Elayne that during The Breaking, the Sea Folk sought refuge in the ocean while the land heaved and changed. That statement alone gives me cause to believe that some of those that would later become Athan Miere started out as mainlanders. It's not that hard of a stretch to believe that the Athan Miere actually found the Amayar on their island shortly after the breaking. But the Athan Miere broke the Way of the Leaf (or Water Way) by doing violence and therefore weren't considered true inhabitants of Tremalking or one of the Amayar.<br /><br />Just my two cents worth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-06 04:23:58
subject: <b>LOL!</b>
body:
This was one of the greatest humor posts I've read.  Great job!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 13:12:02
subject: <b>A serious problem with this less-than-serious theory</b>
body:
You can't enter the ways in T'A'R<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 14:57:17
subject: <b>But reflections can.</b>
body:
And they can time travel too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 03:13:04
subject: <b>uuhh</b>
body:
Can't you people be more serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-10 05:07:11
subject: <b>Yes wa could <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />)</b>
body:
But it wouldn't be as funny!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Why kill the Dragon Reborn when killing Nyneave can be just as fun?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />In three words I can sum up everything I learnt about life: IT GOES ON.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />A trout in the pot is better than a salmon in the sea.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-10 19:14:40
subject: <b>BWAHAA</b>
body:
Very nice... laughing so hard, almost had cola shooting out my nose. Wait, maybe it's true... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-16 01:05:58
subject: <b>Raserei was wrong</b>
body:
he says that padan fain didnt get his powers from the black wind.   that is correct, but the post says that the wind got its attraction for rand from padan fain.   thas why he is wrong


created: 2002-01-09 23:36:16
subject: <b>Bela is sneakier than that.</b>
body:
I like the idea... I've definately had a fear of Bela from the start.  You see, if the Dark One (bela) had figured out that Asmodean was helping Rand, he would surely show himself and off the bad boy.  Yup, definately Bela.


created: 2002-05-01 21:16:20
subject: <b>no!</b>
body:
You see Bela used The True Power to open up a gateway. Asmoden was really upset because Bela had gotten into all his alchoal, and had a heart attack. Forsaken are like Jedi's in that there bodies dissapear when they die. So you will find out in #10 that Bela is really shagging Taim so that he will attack Rand. Then in #11 he will make his way into Rand's bed, and then once he gets a tatse of her he won't let the Maidens harm her. Then Bela will seduce <br />Rand into going mad because now loves four woman.


created: 2002-09-09 11:36:37
subject: <b>Hihi...</b>
body:
The best thing I have read so far today... extremely fun... KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-08 06:26:16
subject: <b>Of course she did it!</b>
body:
The only problem I can see is that LoC happens after tSR, but as you said, time in T'A'R is different, so why not, Olver could Be Gaidal Cain


created: 2004-11-28 16:53:40
subject: <b>grrrrrr</b>
body:
your all soo dumb, it was hopper, you all go no with youre 'intuitevly obvious bela's and narg's'. i am telling you! i did it! me! being hopper in disguise! what could be more obvious than a dead wolf! <br /><br />p.s.<br />please acknowledge hopper as the third super furry animal... (along with bela and narg) please..... youre two posts a month could make all the difference...whimper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> xwulfenx <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> hopper in disguise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-08 02:41:53
subject: <b>the sad part is...</b>
body:
that this IS as reasonable as some of the theories I have read that some people &quot;forget&quot; to put under the humor section. It makes more sense than most of those.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br />All hail<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br />Lady of the Stables,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> She Who Comes With The Oats,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of Tear('s grazing fields),<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> She before whom all the World kneels in loving adoration,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sugarcubes,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Whose Oats shall be spilled on the rocks of SG for the salvation of the World,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> The Creator(ess),<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Bela,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> blessed be her name under the Light(saddlebags-who would want to weigh down the Creator(ess)?)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />}<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 04:29:54
subject: <b>Sorry, Raserei...</b>
body:
I don't understand it either.<br /><br />I think the general rule is that for every equation you write in a book, you decrease your audience by about 10 percent (perhaps it's more; I don't recall exactly).  If this is the case, you have just decreased the understandableness (not a word, but who cares) of your post to zero.<br /><br />Try stating this in English next time....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 07:05:12
subject: <b>Riiiiight</b>
body:
I understood it all the way through to the point where he started using symbols, then my brain exploded.


created: 2001-10-06 08:45:43
subject: <b>To Onarishma</b>
body:
Please explain this theory in English on the blackboard! Nobody gets the symbols!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Seregon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-06 09:38:04
subject: <b>Please don't.</b>
body:
I've no idea if anyone else could follow this concept. I actually hope I'm the only one, I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone else.<br /><br />I give Onarishma credit for the logic involved, and for me, the diagrams do fit the theory properly. It is detailed, well considered, and obviously took a fair bit of time to construct.<br /><br />However, Onarishma needs to be reminded of one simple thing. It's a story. RJ only needs to explain what RJ wishes to in order to arrive at the conclusion of the story with the salient issues resolved. How and why certain physical/spiritual/elemental effects are what they are just don't rate this level of concern. This theory is 'in the same boat' with those that supposedly researched and solved how warpspeed functioned for the Enterprise.<br /><br />Some men can detect Saidar being channeled. Women cannot detect Saidin. Woman can sense another woman's strength in the Power when in close proximity, men cannot sense another man's strength unless it is in action. These are conditions of the world that RJ has composed. Whether he has foundational physical explanations for these conditions available or not is up to him. Magic is, after all, magic. Now I know that is a word not used in the series, but by whatever name, phenomenal extra-physical powers are magic. Since fictional, hunting for a rational explanation of their properties is, well.....<br /><br />Besides, what plot interest gets resolved by knowing just exactly why certain One Power behaviors are what they are?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 12:25:44
subject: <b>Call_me_Tim has it right.</b>
body:
It's RJ's world.<br /><br />The reason I voted against your theory (besides the fact that I have little understanding of what you are talking about) is that I'm not sure that your statement, &quot;Saidin and Saidar are equal and opposite&quot; is correct at all.  Because the AOL is so far behind us, we are only now learning the deeper nature of these things and RJ is likely to throw in some new info as we go along.<br /><br />That's my nickle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm&gt;Cool Fish&lt;/a&gt;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 12:54:35
subject:
<b>I had the pain of understanding this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
It's an interesting but quite intuitively false theory.  Arrows were not the best of of representing Saidin and Saidar's quasi-magnetic forces, though.<br /><br />But why I really posted here is because IN BOOK ONE RJ SPECIFICALLY NAMES THE PLANET EARTH!  (&quot;That's the greatest *I forget which word goes here* on Earth&quot; is the quote)<br /><br />Why can't anybody UNDERSTAND that???  Wotworld is called Earth!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 13:05:46
subject: <b>Well I think I get it....</b>
body:
...Now ask me to explain it back and I'm doomed. This probably is a case of looking too deeply into something but oh well. I kinda like it anyway.<br /><br />   By the way Your Master I'd like a chapter and page number on that quote (not too mention the exact line) if you could provide it. It certainly be cool to see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 14:07:16
subject: <b>Quote please</b>
body:
I'd type the word &quot;Earth&quot; into the new WoT Search, but somehow I think it's gonna give me way too many chapters.


created: 2001-10-06 14:37:20
subject: <b>About Earth</b>
body:
The quote comes from tEotW, when that wagon driver gives Rand and Mat a lift to Caemlyn, after some DF asks if he had seen 2 guys matching their description, and so he goes... &quot;Oh some say Tar Valon or Illian...   But I say, Caemlyn, It's the greatest city on earth!&quot;.  <br />Or something along these lines.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 15:08:19
subject: <b>Wrongo</b>
body:
The quote in debate is about what world this is.  Well, the last line of CH. 34 in tEoTW is &quot;Caemlyn, the grandest city in the world.&quot;  Not the earth.  So, I guess we can call it &quot;World.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 16:17:39
subject: <b>it makes sense but....</b>
body:
<br />I understood the gist of the hteory, but the equations and symbols were extremely confusing......But I do like it....my question is exactly how much time did you put in to that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 16:59:17
subject: <b>uh...</b>
body:
this is heavy stuff. real heavy stuff. i think i'll save this text, and return to it when i'm a little less tired.


created: 2001-10-06 18:17:26
subject: <b>Great theory!!</b>
body:
It was a little hard to understand, but i did get it.  For the layman, the sembols either attract or repulse one another( &lt; and &lt; would overlap and form &lt;, but &lt; and &gt; would repulse ending up with &lt; &gt; ).<br />Understand?  It is basic algebra (a+5=6 and 6-5=a, therefore a=1). You really thought this out, sorry that the computer does not help with this theory( a verbal descusion would be best).  Howerver, I hope you do realize that this is all fiction, and not real life.<br /><br />Cai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> foster brother to Arther Pendragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Knight of the Round Table <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> guess i need to realize this too<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />dang


created: 2001-10-06 18:53:58
subject: <b>Well excuse me!!</b>
body:
I'm so sorry that you all are having so much difficulty understanding this.  I do know that everyone is not interested in the Why&amp;How things work but I am and there are people out there who are interested as well.  And for those of you who did understand it how can you admonish me for figuring out something that works just because you're not interested in how it works.  I don't paritcularly like to postulate to often on who did what when and how but I don't complain about the fact that their are numerous post on who killed Ashmondean &amp; etc.  When I would be perfectly content waiting for it to be revealed to me.  The books are not intended to be mysteries and I don't read them for that purpose.  And just because its &quot;magic&quot; doesn't mean it doesn't have rules.  In fact the magic in these books are quite constrained by rules.  The fact that the interactions from one channeler to another are so defined proves the complexity of it and complexity can mean that the same rules are just being repeated at different levels, so that something immense and complicated like the universe can be understood by a few equasions.  This is why religious people are so often afraid of scientific advacement.  It means to them that some of the mysteries of existence can be and will be eliminated eventually.  Sort of like people who don't like to think their fantasy novels have any relation to reality.<br /><br />Now in response to my use of symbols. I used symbols because I thought they would be more helpful to the reader than me just saying what I meant.  The arrows were intended to tell you the direction in which the forces were pushing or pulling/absorbing.  They were very helpful to me when I was figuring this theory out.  I found it easier to visualize, a graphical drawing helped me to understand how these interactions could be described and they helped me to notice the two semiflaws in my theory,  I wouldn't have addresses either if I had not preceeded in that way because neither one of them are ideas that have ever been brought up directly. Saidin pushes outward all the time where as Saidar was neutral when alone but pulling inward/absorbing when it was agitated by an outside force.  My theory was meant to illustrate how this pushing and pulling/absorbing created the tension and pressure that would explain channelers' level of awareness of one another.<br />So all I can say to you is if you don't understand it, read it agian.  If you don't want to understand it then don't read it.  If you do understand it but you don't think its inportant, thats your opinion but don't tell me im wrong for figuring it out.  Don't tell me that Robert Jordan would not have put that much thought into it, because the man creates characters in the first book that don't show up until books later with something important to add.  The man gives names and backgrounds to people who were not important or as yet are unimportant, when most of us won't remember them until we reread the series and find out we knew them a while before we thought we did.  He has a very structured magical system and there is a possibility that he did consider these ideas.  EVEN IF he made it up arbitrarily, order can be found in chaos.<br /><br />I put alot of effort(regardless of if others think its important) into figuring this theory out and addressing its discrepancies(something that alot of people don't do).  I do apologize if people were confused by the symbols but I couldn't think of a better way to explain my thinking process.  If anyone could tell me a better way of showing it I'm all ears.  I guess I'll stop now.  At least until I hear some more comments.  Thank you for you comments.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 19:52:32
subject: <b>I guess i wasn't done</b>
body:
Things that need to be stated.<br />Firstly I am not a science student I just happen to like it and have a _general_ understanding of it.  If you think/know there is a better way to explain it because you are a student of science in some capacity then do so.  If you think you can disprove then do so.<br /><br />Secondly, I am not a philosophy student, but I like it.  And if you were a philosophy student then you would understand that no philosophical statement has any effect on how you behave in reality it's not intended to.  In fact most phlosophical theories can neither be proven entirely true or false.  For example if you were a metaphysician of the sort who doesn't think objects are real but only products of the mind you still have to behave as if they were real in reality because you have no choice.<br /><br />Thirdly, I did not write this theory because I thought it had anything to do with the plot.  I have already stated that the plot is very much not of interest to me in so far as I believe that I will know eventually who did what where why and how.  I write these theories about things that I don't think will ever be addressed but for which I want to understand better.  If it makes sense and I believe it does, perhaps it's true.<br /><br />And lastly my disintrest in figuring out the plot is no more abnormal then your intrest in figuring out everything before it happens or is explained to you.  No need to worry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 20:58:07
subject: <b>About this theory and more!</b>
body:
Nothing personal, but I do think your taking people's comments a little too personal.  Plus, if I were you I be careful what you say about religious people, especially since 9/11.  Even science has its flaws.  Plus, I doubt mankind will eliminate all mysteries out there.  I do like the theory for the most part, and I did understand it.  I do believe fantasy and reality do have a lot in common, but again don't take it personal.


created: 2001-10-06 21:15:31
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
Generally, considering the background of the author, an excellent mathematical model of RJ's world of &quot;magic&quot;.  I do have a request for the author and a comment :<br />*  Lets try to make some anologies to our world (even though anologies can only get us so far).  To start, recall the 4 basic fields believed to &quot;power&quot; our universe (electro-magnetic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear, and gravity).  Also recall the history of &quot;grand unified field theory&quot; development.  For example, would you equate male-saidain with gravity?  Female-saidar with electro-magnetic?<br />*  Finally, your reference to chaos/complexity theory is well understood.  As a push in the right direction, please consider &quot;complex variable theory&quot; and its application to your mahematic model (i.e. give each element of your model a &quot;real&quot; and a &quot;complex&quot; component and try working the math in the complex-plane).  I believe you will find the numbers add up much better.<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-10-07 02:18:58
subject: <b>I liked it, but...</b>
body:
You're theory was very well thought out, and it was fairly understandable. I though the symbols worked well. There's just one point that bugs me. You're working under the major assumption that Male chanelers use sadin through a conduit of sadir, and vice versa. I think you missed one point of scientific analysis. You can only make theorys from the facts at hand. You made up one thing to help make your theory work. <br /><br />Now, I don't know if they use a conduit or not, but you have to admit that your theory would kind of fall flat if that wasn't the case. <br /><br />All in all, however, it was quite well thought out. I think you nailed the differences between sadin and sadir. Maybe you should work on a similar theory, but try and work it out by assuming that they don't use a conduit. Look at the fundamental differences of sadin and sadir and try and work why male/female chanelers do what they do it WOT. Try using symbols again, without the conduits. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Top Work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-07 07:17:38
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
I like this theory. It explains in quite simple terms all we have so far seen about sensing channeling or healing a stilled person. And a theory in e.g. physiks would also make presumptions in order to explain certain observations. As long as Jordan gives no facts that speak against this theory or anybody else proofs it wrong it stands. <br />An by the way, even fiction must follow rules - in this case even selfmade - because otherwise it all gets messed up and therefore uninteresting.<br /><br />Dopo


created: 2001-10-08 03:04:46
subject: <b>Uh-Huh</b>
body:
Jeez,and I thought I didn't have a life!!!!!!!<br /><br />(Just to make sure I offend everyone,I think religion generaly sucks and a lot of you are acting like the worst sort of Trekkie. that's shamefull! It's just a really good story people!!!!) <br /><br />P.S. Try not to make us all look like Trekkies please.I find trekkieness morally questionable and I thought this place was filled with a better sort.<br /><br />P.P.S just a joke like statement people<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 03:08:55
subject: <b>To Reiterate</b>
body:
Seriously don't ever take me seriously. It's much better for everyones health that way.<br />P.S.Have a nice day <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 06:29:50
subject: <b>You've missed one thing</b>
body:
When Nynaeve healed Siuan and Leanne, she used saidar.<br />How on earth can she replace saidin with saidar, and still have those conduits working?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />If your theory were to be correct, then healing severed channelers would be REQUIRED to be done by the opposite sex.<br /><br />But I do like the theory.<br />It's interresting. Flawd, but interresting.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 07:25:13
subject: <b>Kids dont do drugs</b>
body:
This is why i am against pill poppin'...<br /><br />To turn a fantasy book into a mathematic puzzle is the best example of taking this book too far...<br /><br />I mean sure, lets hear the theories on whats gonna happen next, but analysing so closely the unimportant things is just going beyond sanity...<br /><br />Mate, i will give you 10 on the work put into it, dont get me wrong this aint a diss like the rest of these morons above me...but books like these are to release the mind and let imagination fly...dont bring it all down to this stuff...<br /><br />Cheers mate, and yeah....dont listen to these 'wallys'<br /><br />Mad out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 13:48:48
subject: <b>help me please</b>
body:
can you do my college algebra for me?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 17:28:48
subject: <b>um, er, I um didn't do so well in math....</b>
body:
I didn't do so well in math so what the heck is this theory supposed to mean! Yeah a + b = c and all that but good grief! I'll I really care about is when Moiraine is coming back!


created: 2001-10-08 18:39:36
subject: <b>I understood it</b>
body:
But i doubt I could make it any simpler...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(hey there IS a reason to take Calculus!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Jeremy H. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><b><font color="#cc33ff"><br />Run far and fast when a wizard frowns.<br />Run faster when he smiles.<br /></font></b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 18:52:02
subject: <b>GREAT JOB MAN</b>
body:
That was a really awesome theory. I really like the idea of the saidar conduits for Saidin users.  Also, what do you think about how this relates to what happened with the weirdness in Ebou Dar during Rand's battle against the Seanchan in tPoD? It seemed as though the damane had more trouble channeling than the men did.  I always figured it was because the men were used to wrestling it into doing what they wanted and the women were not, which could be the case.  Your theory however, could add something to that.  Since you said saidar is nuetral until somebody tweaks its nose, it would make sense that it would respond violently to the force in Ebou Dar, which I assumed was some sort of residual from using the bowl of the winds.  But get back to me on that. Good job.  I agree that everything has to have structure in a story to be a good story, otherwise its just a guy making stuff up like a little kid.  The scientific aspect of the power has always intrugued me.


created: 2001-10-08 21:13:05
subject: <b>i only understood the 1st part</b>
body:
well in book 1 (TEOTW) they say that they are on earth, i forget where but i distinctly remember it. and this goes with the theory that randland is earth only at a different age


created: 2001-10-09 03:43:43
subject: <b>A response from my dad...</b>
body:
Hey Onarishma,<br /><br />   I showed my dad this theory and he wanted to give his own response to it. The following is from &quot;Poppa Savaunt&quot;<br /><br />   sir, <br />  You show an indepth understanding of both Magnetic Physics AND the Unified fields Theory. Are you a physics major? If not, you should be! I am . You are explaining this in terms that indicate an extremely high IQ. I have an IQ of 186(Einstein's was 198 ), and you are at least on par with me, if not beyond.<br />  Magnetic Physics &amp; the Unified Fields Theory as they apply to propulsion for deep-space travel, &amp; exceeding the speed of light are my field of devoted study.<br />  Are you interested in same? I am seeking a research partner.<br />  If you are interested, or have some datd you'ld be willing to share, my E-mail is  tony_basore@hotmail.com.<br />  As to my opinion of your theory relating to the book, specifically, it is without question, sound, as it follows the basic laws of physics in this universe.<br />  Again, please contact me if you are at all interested in magnetics, I could use the help in my research.<br />  Sincerely, Dr. George A. Basore, Sr.(ThD)<br />  AKA Poppa Savaunt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 09:09:49
subject: <b>Don't judge a theory by its cover.</b>
body:
I am sorry to say that initially I thought this theory sucked.  However, this is because I did not take the time to read it.  This is one of the most well thought out theories I have ever seen.  While I would never have out so much time into it, I think it would benefit everyone to take the time to understand this theory.<br /><br />That said, I would like to hear more from you on how a woman can heal another woman using Saidar (or vice versa).  (Thanks to da'covale for pointing this out).  If you can explaing this, I would vote for this as being the best theory out there.  We could even refer to it as the Grand Unified SOURCE Theory.<br /><br />Congrats again on a wonderful theory!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the mysterious name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 11:39:04
subject: <b>The One Power and The True Source And This Theory...</b>
body:
I do not doubt the logic of your theory.  After working it through at lunch today I see where you are going and I understand the theory.  Taken at face value, like all theories, it holds water and is tightly knit.  It is very creative and of course you have put a lot of thought into it.  Unfortunately your theory if fatally flawed.  Why?  You have no substance.  Here is what we know, taking Wotworld at face value.<br /><br />We have a Creator.  Of this there can be no doubt.  This Creator may not be taking an active part in our world but the Creator set up this world.  How do we know this?  The Creator of the Creator has told us so repeatedly.  That Ultimate Creator of course is Robert Jordan.<br /><br />What has the Creator put in place in Wotworld?   The True Source.  We know, from the Creator (RJ) of the Creator only a little about the TS.  But this we do know, from <i>The World of Robert Jordan&#8217;s The Wheel of Time</i> page 17:<br /><br /><i>The True Source is made up of two complementary parts: saidin, the make half, and saidar, the female half.  Each has separate properties and affinities, working at the same time with and against the other.  Only women can touch saidar, and only men saidin.  Each is completely unable to sense the other half of the Source, except as an absence or negativity.  Even the methodologies by which men and women utilize the One Power that emanates from the True Source are so completely different that no woman can teach a man to use the power, and no man a woman.</i><br /><br />The diagram of what we know looks like this:<br /><br />* &#8211; the True Source<br />P &#8211; the One Power flowing from the TS<br />5 &#8211; there are 5 threads to this OP.  Namely Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit<br /><br />Combined the thread looks like this:<br /><br />*&#8212;&gt; P5 (out of the TS flows the fivefold OP)<br /><br />This is the proven basis of Wotworld.<br /><br />But the Creator has made things more interesting than that.  There is an additional component added to the above diagram.  Z and Q.  This represents saidin and saidar.  It is within the TS itself that this distinction is made.  Within the very heart of the force that moves Wotworld there is conflict of gender.  Not of course that the TS is sentient.  But the essence of the difference between men and women channelers has its very root in the TS.<br /><br />Therefore there are only 2 ways to approach the TS and to channel:<br /><br />1) approach the one part of the TS, here called the TSZ, or<br />2) approach the other part of the TS, here called the TSQ.<br /><br />Why is this so?  Because it is in the nature adherent to Wotworld and because that is all the information we have at hand.  <br /><br />Your theories are interesting.  They might even be agreed to in the end by the Creator of the Creator.  But they are based upon nothing but your own interesting ideas and partial observations of Wotworld.  They have no real basis.<br /><br />My point?  You can be upset that others have not appreciated your theories.  But to accuse some of us of retreating into a &#8220;just believe brother, just believe!&#8221; mentality is rubbish.  You offer a mathematical formula that fits your theory, but you offer very little, by way of clean observation, as to the basis of these thoughts.  That is what many of us are jumping on.  The exact same thing happens when someone poses a &#8220;Lightfriend&#8221; theory.  Some interesting thoughts are shared with very, very little to back them up.<br /><br />In closing, I think some of the answers you are looking for and are trying to prove are contained in this quote: <i> Linking also has gender-based limitations due to the inherent differences of saidin and saidar.</i> The key phrase is &#8220;inherent difference&#8221; which the author hasn&#8217;t always spelled out for the reader.<br /><br />Have fun.  Use your mind.  You seem to have a pretty good one.  But if you can&#8217;t take harsh criticism of your theories without becoming peevish and petty than I suggest you take a break and look after business in the real world.  For the real world is by far, far more interesting and observable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mssr. Addershag deMalkier<br /><br /><i>If you can't laugh at yourself... then you are the only one not doing so!</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 13:48:34
subject: <b>Okay this is for those above...</b>
body:
You guys talked about how Wotworld was Earth, and you stated a quote, then someone said, look up earth.<br /><br />Well, you guys gotta remember that earth is also used to describe dirt and the land.  <br /><br />Plus, Earth is also a type of Saidin/Saidar weave, so don't take it too literally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-10 17:38:57
subject: <b>Problems</b>
body:
There are typos in this theory.  Look at the equations and you will see them.  And some of the equations don't work. I don't feel like listing them.  It would be great to get this as correct as possible so we (the readers who care about such things) can refer to it when contemplating saidin/saidar phenomena in Randland without having to mentally fix it every time we look at it.  Maybe you could just post the corrected equations/explanations on this blackboard.<br />Thanks


created: 2001-10-10 18:58:30
subject: <b>slightly embarrassed</b>
body:
But only slightly.  You would think that I would be better at taking critism.  I'm an Architecture student and juries are quite willing to rip a hole even when they love your work.  The reason why I think I reacted so harshly is because I truly didn't think the first few comments were constructive.  They seemed to be telling me that I shouldn't waste my time, thinking about things that aren't directly important to the plot.  I think they are important to the plot for no other reason than that having physics-like rules will add even more depth to Robert Jordan's creation.  I have never in my life been so interested in any book or series and the idea that RJ could be even more complex consciously or unconsciously intrigues me.  The WOT is the only set of books I can recall that even tries to explain &quot;magic&quot; as something that can be understood and studied.  And so I am drawn to understand and study.<br />And I would like to thank those who brought up Suian and Leane (Major Flaw #2).  Now I'll have to figure out what to do about it or my theory will fall down the drain. Our formerly severed Aes Sedai had completly slipped my mind which is sort of sad since they were the reason I even wrote the first theory.  Now I have something else to think about besides the area near Ebou Dar which I'm still contemplating that.<br />Well I just wanted to come in a few days later and try to explain a little more calmly my disagreement.  And for the religious statement I made I apologize if any were offended.  It was the closest analogy that came to me, but I do know and value the personal aspect of faith and I usually try not to comment on peoples personal choices.<br />Thanks again for taking the time to read my theory even if you didn't like it and thank you for your comments.<br />PS Tim I only have a general understanding of those real world theories and I also never thought of the One Power in those terms.  Maybe I will.  But it will be a while if I do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-10 19:09:14
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Rand al'Thor. how'd you get so lucky to get that name.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But the real question is if you can point out what you think are typos I know there is alot of stuff to look through but I couldn't find them, perhaps I'm seeing what I expect to see and not what is there.<br />Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 11:25:54
subject: <b>(The Stranger deposits his two cents)</b>
body:
Onarishma, I don't claim to understand your argument yet, but perhaps someday I will.  I think the biggest problem was that you just started using symbols without really explaining what they meant.  As many people dislike what they do not understand (witness the Taliban dealing with our culture) they started badmouthing your theory.  Take it easy, everyone, it's just a simple miscommunication. <br />Oh, about the whole Randland/Wotworld/Earth stuff, I just had a thought.  Practically every Native American tribe has its own language, and the word they describe themselves with usually means &quot;the People&quot; or &quot;the True People.&quot;  I think the name a species gives to its planet would probably fall into the same pattern -- if we ever encounter alien species the word they call their planet will probably translate as &quot;Earth.&quot;<br />What I'm getting at is that Earth is a perfectly natural word to give to the rockball you're standing on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 15:21:52
subject: <b>Get it all wrong</b>
body:
Wot world is not earth, but Mars is.<br />Proof you ask? I have it.<br />If you take rand,(main character) and put &#8220;e&#8221; instead of &#8220;an&#8221; you get red!<br />And mars is red, thus, wot is mars, simple equation.<br /><br />The only problem is that this mean rand is a communist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 21:45:31
subject: <b>So .... does this guy have a job or not .. that's my question.</b>
body:
Thanks for your theory Onimarshaha whatever your name is.  You've given me proof that i have a life still, and can't spend hours doing theories on fantasy material.<br /><br />As for Lord Savaunt, if you and your dad give weight to IQ tests still then you are truly living in the past.  Those have long been proven inaccurate and unreliable (one of my professors was on the National Committee that tried to make IQ tests unbiased, in which they never succeeded).  All that an IQ tests prove is that your are more than likely from an upper white class background, that's about it.  You can't guage intelligence, it's just too complicated.  But you and your 180+ IQ father can feel nice and secure that you are white and familiar with WASP culture.<br /><br />Just your daily dose of reality from<br />Torin the Chosen


created: 2001-10-16 15:11:09
subject: <b>Ouch!</b>
body:
That hurt my head!  Otherwise, good, just next time leave out the symbols!  Oh, and Torin, shut up, will you?  Bitter fellah, aren't you?


created: 2001-10-19 14:00:11
subject: <b>...or here's an idea</b>
body:
Maybe saidar is just more obvious when it's being used.  Sometimes things just ARE.  For example, Newton's Second Law states that F=ma (sort of).  There is no other physics working behind it.  It is just a fundamental truth.  The sum of the forces on an object is equal to the change in its momentum with repect to time, usually the objects mass multiplied by its net acceleration.  That's just how the universe works.  In the same way, it's entirely possible in that Randland saidar is simply more obvious than saidin.  This can simply be a fundamental truth that need not be explained with respect to anything else.<br /><br />Just my two cents.


created: 2001-10-21 11:48:56
subject: <b>Just an idea...</b>
body:
I have a small theory on the Siuan/Leane problem....the only flaw in it is that it's VERY far-fetched. (Well, most of my theories are, but this one's really bad.)<br /><br />I understood this theory the first time I read it, and it only took me 5 minutes (don't ask me how I did it. I don't know either). I really liked the idea of conduits of saidin/saidar covering the actual flow. Now I started thinking: What are the conduits for? I think they're to hold the flow together. So, a flow of saidin goes somewhere and has a conduit of saidar around it to prevent it from going off in all directions. <br /><br />I think that that's the problem with Siuan and Leane. Normally, all channelers have the ability to surround their flows with the opposite power. They do so without thinking or knowing. When the ability to channel is cut away from the body, this is also removed. <br /><br />Now, Siuan and Leane were healed by Nynaeve, using saidar. This gave them back the ability to touch and drain the power, BUT (and this is the point of my theory) not the ability to surround the flows with saidin. This was caused by the fact that only saidar was used to heal them. The saidin surrounding Nynaeve's flows would only be used to get her flows to the place where they were needed and not be of any effect. <br /><br />Because of this, when Siuan or Leane channels, her flows are only saidar, without the saidin counduit. That causes it to be a wavering beam, instead of a straight flow. The fact that they are missing something causes Siuan and Leane to be less strong than they were before. <br /><br />Now that I reread it, this whole story starts sounding less credible to me. ah, whatever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Morgawse Sedai<br /><br /><i>Mornings happen to other people.</i><br /><br /> Passionate Heerenveen Fan<br /><br /><font color="red">I survived Michigan 2004</font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 20:46:05
subject: <b>your right though</b>
body:
After I wrote my last post It occured to me that i had forgotten parts of my own theory again.  The original theory  &quot;Healing severing by sex and related topics&quot; was built on two peices of information.  Rands clensing of saidin and Suian&amp;Leane's lessened ability.  The previous theory indicated exactly what you said.  With their conduits re-built of saidar there would be a leak.  To address the other issue, that a woman healed with saidar should not be able to channel at all was also explained in the other theory it stated that without a residual saidin connector  that without a residual amount of their saidin connection the two women would not be able to  be healed at all.  This part of the theory prohibits Nynaeve or others from makign people Aes Sedai at least by themselves. (I'm still quite interested in what could happen when she and Damar get togeather.  That would be an great way of building the forces if they togeather could make channelers  Of course it would probably be to cheesy if Robert Jordan  solved  problems like that.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 22:19:49
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
And that my friends is an example of what happens when you don't proof read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 17:25:14
subject: <b>Female/Male:Saidar/Saidin</b>
body:
How about the Saidar/Saidin interactions simply represent Male/Female interaction?<br />Men rarely are able to communicate as well with each other as women seem to be able to and sharing feelings with other men or intimate understanding of other men doesn't work as well for men. We communicate feelings and express ourselves better to women than other men. Women communicate much better with one another than men do, or so my mother and girlfriend claim. Thus women can link, men can only link with women, and men can't sense something as personal as another's ablitiy to channel.  Also men feel threantened by intimacy wih other men, thus the feeling of force and menace Rand describes as opposed to the &quot;kinship&quot; Egwene and Elayne both mention.  I believe Jordan writes the interactions of channelers as representative of the male and female psyches.  And isn't the Yin/Yang symbol supposed to represent male and female forces? (I don't know which is which).  It would certainly fit in with all the other ways he portrays men and women's priorities and relationships (Do Mat or Perrin, who have known Rand their whole lives, understand him or predict his thought processes as well as Aviendha, who met him less than a year ago, book time? Or even as well as Elayne who has spent a grand total of three days and one night in his company?  Or Rand and Mat know Perrin as well as Faile does?).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 12:10:22
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
This is a very well thought out theory, and though I am far from being an expert in physics, the first thing to come to mind was the magnetic polarity, equal and opposite.  I'm impressed that it was so well thought out.  No, this is not a polite prelude to a criticism.  The addendum to the theory concerning Siuan and Leane also gets an A+.<br />I don't think there is anything wrong in having a strong response to ideas, nor do I think the refutation of them should be taken as fanatical.  You have a theory, someone disagrees, you back it up-how did this become wrong?  Not to mention, the more you examine the WOT world and story, the more beautifly logical it is, so while we are all (assumably) suffering from WOT withdrawl until June 2002 (hopefully) I can't think of a better way to still the &quot;longing&quot; than to discuss theorize and pick apart the books, that is what this site is for, no?<br />As for the IQ comments, well no, I don't think the IQ test is entirely valid, though not for the reasons stated, it is not racially prejudiced, or economically, just that it has to be recognized that  it isn't the be all and end all, it doesn't measure the conceptual capacity, the abilty to understand, just the tools used for it.<br />The recognition of intellegence is worthy and the offer of being a research partner is quite a complement.<br />But since you are an architect, try reading The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand, quite an eye opener to put it mildly.<br /><br />To return from digression, an excellent theory, and I personally vote in #1 in all the theories I've read so far.  Perhaps I should suggest the the Admins that they have an all inclusive theory contest for each category, or is there one alredy?


created: 2002-02-06 18:29:28
subject: <b>hey thanks</b>
body:
It did get better after a time didn't it though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  But perhaps you should suggest the theory contest thing.  I've never heard any idea like it here.  It might be fun if they assigned a topic and let us all go after what we want.  They have contests of other sorts,  but i think this is something a lot of people would enjoy.<br />I hope to see something from you soon<br />Peace<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 13:39:36
subject: <b>about the second flaw</b>
body:
two things: when Nynaeve healed the channelers she mentioned building a 'bridge with all five powers' and we know that when seh healed Logain he returned to full strength but when she healed Siuan and leane they only had a fraction of their strength maybe this is becaus ein severing this happens (left to right the first and the last lines are the power conduits and the middle is the power used): <br />in logain this happened:<br /><br />|&#166;|             |&#166;|                       |&#166;|  <br />|&#166;| -&gt; severing     -&gt; healing w/ saidar (|&#166;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> <br />|&#166;|             |&#166;|                       |&#166;|<br /><br /><br />in siuan and Leane:<br /><br />&#166;|&#166;             &#166;|&#166;                       &#166;|&#166;<br />&#166;|&#166; -&gt; severing     -&gt; healing w/ saidar ( | ) <br />&#166;|&#166;             &#166;|&#166;                       &#166;|&#166;<br /><br />btw the ()'s  are for healing processes<br />so as aou can see above the saidar leaks out of Siuan and Leane's power conducts. and if it may help it's stated somewher in WH that Damer healed an aes sedai to full strength again after severing....


created: 2002-03-13 14:28:28
subject: <b>on saidar, saidin and healing severing</b>
body:
two things: when Nynaeve healed the channelers she mentioned building a 'bridge with all five powers' and we know that when seh healed Logain he returned to full strength but when she healed Siuan and leane they only had a fraction of their strength maybe this is becaus ein severing this happens (left to right the first and the last lines are the power conduits and the middle is the power used): <br />in logain this happened:<br /><br />|&#166;| _____________|&#166;|_______________________ |&#166;| <br />|&#166;| -&gt; severing______-&gt; healing w/ saidar______(_|&#166;|_) <br />|&#166;| _____________|&#166;|_______________________ |&#166;|<br /><br /><br />in siuan and Leane:<br /><br />&#166;|&#166; ___________&#166;|&#166;_______________________&#166;|&#166;<br />&#166;|&#166; -&gt; severing____-&gt; healing w/ saidar______(_|_) <br />&#166;|&#166; ___________&#166;|&#166;_______________________&#166;|&#166;<br /><br />btw the ()'s are for healing processes<br />so as aou can see above the saidar leaks out of Siuan and Leane's power conducts. and if it may help it's stated somewher in WH that Damer healed an aes sedai to full strength again after severing.... <br /><br />PS sorry if the underscores are a bit confusing ignore them the server can't recognise more than one space for one reason


created: 2002-03-13 14:33:08
subject: <b>BTW.....</b>
body:
btw ... just to piss you off maybe on the basis of onarishma's theory and what I demonstrated we can suppose that the strength in the one power is only due to the strength or the capacity of these conducts whose existence onarishma brought to our knowledge and therefore maybe angreal and sa'angreal don't actually draw more of the power but strengthen these conducts and therefore femal angreal and sa'angreal can only be made by men and vice-versa... ok that was my 2 cents feel free to bash....


created: 2002-04-11 13:06:51
subject: <b>Rand and LTT</b>
body:
In this theory I am going to try and explain what I think will happen with Rand and LTT. In Min's viewing she saw that two men like Rand will come togather and then there shall be only one left. I belive that instead of Rand becoming free of LTT in his head Rand and LTT shall be joined togather, LTT will no longer be hidden in Rands head all of his memories shall join. Also I think that the 'third voice' that LTT remarked on once is actually another dragon from a previous age. What I actually think is that there are hundreds of dragons from the past that have stopped the DO gaining control of the world and that before Rand faces the DO in the last battle all of these dragons shall join togather. Rand will not fight the last battle, the collective of all the dragons in history shall join in Rand's head befor the battle.


created: 2002-05-02 09:26:06
subject: <b>Understandable BUT Strange!!!!</b>
body:
OK it goes like this, either his mind is warped to the point of understanding Jordan, or else he's lost his marbles.  But on the point of understanding, if you take his symbols to mean polarity the same as in magnetic forces, his theory makes incredible sense.  At first glance you think what the FUDGE has this guy been smoking, but then after he explains the fundamentals of his theory, you start to see a method to this madness.


created: 2002-05-07 10:14:22
subject: <b>I think I got the jist</b>
body:
Well as far as the theory goes, detailed, detailed detailed and very well thought out and explained if you could follow. I did and then again I didn't. Anywho, I think the ideaology is on another level which most of us do not enguage in and that is ok. But my real thought is what about the proposal he recived from poppa lookin for and assistant. Although the feild of architecture can invole some asspects of structure and bonding (metals and others as adhesives) i wonder if his thinking would be able to, or want to, delve in that feild, I am babbblin. Just my 2 cents.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Dire Wolf who Knows None other than Talborak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;If every fool wore a crown we would all be kings&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />                       proverb<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Of my own free will, Bonded To SR71. May she always find the strength she needs in me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 17:18:41
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
This guy's gonna be a mad scientist or something...maybe figure out a way to travel to Randland.. woot i'd go... Yea i understood it until he started using that equation stuff.... I just think that Saidar and Saidin work with and against eachother, driving the wheel of time, and that saidin has its strength and weakness, and so does saidar.... females can link, which makes up for their inability to sense if a man can channel or if he's channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Semirhage Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine SuperFan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Lan Inspector <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve lover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve's most devoted, loyal, and spazmastic fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Nynessa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 23:22:19
subject: <b>uh-uh</b>
body:
Congratulations, you receive my first wot comment.  I like the thought that you put into your theory, but you forgot the concept of a CLEAR EXPLANATION to your thoughts.  The symbols used as equations is a nice touch - just explain what in the light those mean


created: 2002-12-21 06:44:57
subject: <b>This is great stuff!</b>
body:
Hey Onarishma, I gotta congratulate you. I reckon that you may have worked out exactly how all the underlying One Power stuff works. We know for a fact that Jordan was into physics and has worked out a systems a bit like physics for his channeling (this was in a quote from RJ somewhere... the FAQ maybe?)<br /><br />The next step I'd say is to start using this model to predict things, like what would happen when men and women channel together to shield someone, for instance.<br /><br />Also, I think we may be getting some more evidence for your theory in CoT, as wotmania's review says that information is revealed about 'the nature of things' in general.<br /><br />Again, congrats, an ingenious theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-29 15:47:02
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I do. It's pretty smart when you thin kabout it actually. Took a while to figure it out though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 19:13:17
subject: <b>why a man must control</b>
body:
Just a random realization.  A man must lead in a one to one link because as you may notice in equation #9 the woman's conduit is completly absorbed when entering into the link while the males conduit is only partially absorbed.  I doubt anyone will see this note but hey i figured I'd add it anyway<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 05:52:48
subject: <b>Yeah thats a good point</b>
body:
I wonder if anyone else will notice it Onarishma...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-15 14:35:49
subject: <b>Physics of the Wheel</b>
body:
Um, this reminds me of those people that try to explain really abstract and far out and technical Star Trek physics to laymans, or people that just don't understand what they are trying to say. Ten gold crowns says this person is into Star Trek.<br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen,<br />Fire to blind<br />Music to dazzle<br />Iron to bind&quot;<br />        --said at the beginning of a game of snakes and foxes


created: 2005-04-12 06:39:34
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
I can dig it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Lord of the Morning<br /><br />&lt;^&gt;Kel</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-31 15:40:26
subject: <b>How to Test your Theory</b>
body:
I realize it&#8217;s been a while since anyone commented on this post, but I just couldn&#8217;t resist. Great job, by the way. I get the basics, though I&#8217;m not deeply enough into the math to analyze the analysis (if you get what I mean).<br /><br />Several respondents seemed stumped as to the &#8220;use&#8221; of the theory, if correct. If you can do one thing, its use will become almost self-evident.<br /><br />RJ stipulates certain rules about linking: Up to 13 females may link w/o a male. With a male involved, an additional 13 females may then link, giving a total of 27 to the size of the &#8220;circle&#8221;. Additional males are required to continue expanding this linked mass. If I recall correctly the absolute maximum size of any such linked group is 72, no matter how powerful or otherwise configured.<br /><br />Well, I think RJ&#8217;s use of the term &#8220;circle&#8221; may not be happenstance. If your idea is accurate, it should be possible to use it to demonstrate why 72 is the absolute maximum number; there should be some factor in the assembly of the linked construct that precludes, as a matter of its fundamental basis, any additional members; perhaps the use of the word &#8220;circle&#8221; is a reference to an eventual self-terminating sequence best expressed as a continuous loop/circle/mobius strip, etc.<br /><br />If your idea can demonstrate/prove that then not only have you validated your theory, you have further proven RJ&#8217;s total genius, not only as a writer, but as a scientist; he will have found a way to explain &#8211; scientifically &#8211; how &#8220;magic&#8221; works. Heck, for all we know, that&#8217;s how a non-OP Age morphs into an Age (AoL?) with the OP; somebody had to be first to show how it was done!<br /><br />You, then, would be the guy who translated the Word of God to the masses!<br />


created: 2001-10-08 00:49:48
subject: <b>Walker/watcher?</b>
body:
If either of these guys is Moridin (I think he's both), then he's still been using TAR hasn't he?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 03:02:58
subject: <b>Isam</b>
body:
maybe its like the Luc/Isam combo, one person in real life, one person in the world of dreams, but they can change over (hence seeing Ba'alzamon in the real world only once...)<br /><br />something to think about I suppose<br />ps. This also fits in with Ishy and Ba'al being &quot;one&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> The Lucky One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tweak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Jack of Hearts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Hand of Enchantment<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 09:34:08
subject: <b>I don't thinks so</b>
body:
I think it is rather late in the series to add in too many new plots.  Besides which if RJ keeps resurecting every other Forsaken then it will be forever for enough odd numbered books come out so they can be killed off enough.


created: 2001-10-08 12:13:14
subject: <b>points...</b>
body:
Here goes:<br /><br />1) Ba'alzamon does indeed use the word Shai'tan.  In the dream in Caemlyn in tEotW when talking to Rand about the Black Ajah Ba'alzamon does say Shai'tan. (tEotW, pg 587 hardbound)  Strike one.<br /><br />2)Rand did not defeat Ba'alzamon in a mutual battle of Power.  Ba'alzamon's whole purpose was to subvert Rand, not kill him.  In fact, Ba'alzamon tells Rand he shouldn't use the Power the way he had in freeing Kari al'Thor until Ba'alzamon had a chance to teach him.  Ishamael's 'black cord' was cut, Rand fried him with fire. Ba'alzamon never tried to attack Rand.<br /><br />3)Wish I had my books with me.  I seem to remember in Perrin's dream where both Lanfear and Ba'alzamon appear Ba'alzamon is wearing something other than red.  So he can change clothes....<br /><br />4)Moridin has obviously had enough with taking an active role.  He is more than willing to stand back and allow others to do his work for him.  What use is T'A'R to him now.  I would guess that he still uses T'A'R to some extent, perhaps to spy on the other Chosen. <br />


created: 2001-10-08 15:28:00
subject: <b>More explanation...</b>
body:
An important point to keep in mind is the fact that everyone refers to Ishmael as being &quot;half trapped&quot; in the bore.  I think this is cruicial because it is this half trapped being that acted in the role of Ba'alzamon.  This could explain the difference in appearances you refer to as well as the use of the one power versus the true power.  It wasn't until Ba'alzamon was done in by Rand that the Dark One could remake him as a complete Ishmael (e.g. Moridin), who uses the True Power regularly rather than the one power.... and who also has returned to his earlier apperance.  Also, since he was half trapped, it was far easier for Ba'alzamon to touch the world of dreams and work in that dimension rather than the real world.  However, since now he is reborn in full, Ishmael can now touch the real world just as easily as the world of dreams.<br /><br />I don't think your theory proves they were different, but it does prove that Moridin (the new Ishmael) has far different attributes than his predecessor (Ba'alzamon).


created: 2001-10-08 16:50:29
subject: <b>Sha'har Game</b>
body:
To me the prologue to Path of Daggers when Moridin was thinking about the Fisher (Rand) confirmed that he was Ba'alzamon, and hence Ishamael.<br /><br />The reason for his shift in tactics was explained there.<br /><br />Just my opinion<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 00:47:08
subject: <b>Nahhh, way off, just a theory with no substance.</b>
body:
So Moridin is not Ba'alzamon?  Have you been reading the same books as the rest of us? So many holes that I just don't have time to totally rip your theory apart.  Here's just one, Path of Daggers, Moridin thinking of the Fisher. He was &quot;painfully&quot; aware that he couldn't push Rand too hard, he'd already learned that lesson once.  What was the lesson, an uncomfortable rash on his crotch? No, he died got resurrected and that changes one a bit.  Look at Osangar, Cyndane, Asangar, for reference. (Oh wait, you think that there is not definitive proof that Cyndane is Lanfear right? Just another magical forsaken that loved rand?)<br />Also, As to him using the True Power or the One Power, he likely used a mix of the TP and OP before but now uses the TP exclusively because he feels he has the self control, he is eccentric after all.<br />Finally his fashion sense? So he changes, sometimes I get dressed up all nice in a suit, sometimes I wear jeans and a T-shirt.  Am I two entities?<br />And maybe Jordan makes a few mistakes with the naming &quot;Shaitan&quot; thing.  Guess what, your God Jordan makes mistakes in his writing.  No need to say that there are two Nae'blises.<br /><br />Sorry but you just can't post a theory for tiny little discrepancies and expect us to swallow it. <br /><br />Torin the Chosen<br /><br />btw We call God by several names, God, Lord, Jesus, Alla, Heavenly Father, Great Spirit, whatever you want.  Sometimes you name him a bit differently, can't forsaken do the same thing.  Lanfear says it's blasphemy to use Shaitan, Moridin doesn't, personal preference, who cares.<br />


created: 2001-10-09 08:37:39
subject: <b>I care</b>
body:
I care that Ishamael calls him Shai'tan while Lanfear says it's blasphemy even if you don't. And I definitely don't believe RJ did it by accident. Whether he'll ever actually tell us why this happens or leave it for us to work out, I'm certain he knows the answer.


created: 2001-10-09 11:27:26
subject: <b>Seems like a good place to toss in my idea of Ishamael.</b>
body:
I've spoken of it before, but I'll do it again.  Your theory intrigues me, but I think it's a little late in the game and we still wouldn't know who Ba'alzamon really was.  I, however, think Ishy is not just Ba'alzie, but rather Shai'tan himself.  If you care to hear more, email me.  I've never been able to articulate it well enough to submit it as a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 22:20:11
subject: <b>Ishamael = Ba'alzamon = Moridin</b>
body:
Ishamael in his early life was sane.<br />Then gradually went mad until he reached the point where he called himself Ba'alzamon and had the whole fiery face thing going on.<br />Reborn as Moridin, hence the insanity is no longer there, and he is like Ishamael again.<br /><br />Sounds logical to me??<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />blade<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-09 23:15:09
subject: <b>Debunking</b>
body:
Several more flaws:<br /><br />Moghedien gets the whole scoop of Rand's duel with Ba'alzamon and says it sounds just like Ishamael.<br /><br />Why didn't Mog recognize Moridin if he is Ishamael?  She thought he was just some nutso darkfriend.  Unless he died off-stage, but that's pretty dumb.<br /><br />In one of the Forsaken meetings, one of them pointed out how they all fought each other but that Ishamael had (note:past tense) kept them from each other's throats.  Where did he go?<br /><br />And moreover, why would Ishamael wait so long to come out of hiding?  Aginor at the Eye states that he is already free to touch the world.<br /><br />Lastly, why would Lanfear speak to Ba'alz in the dream with some measure of respect?  I find it unlikely any except Ishamael or someone else from the AOL would be treated as an equal.


created: 2001-10-10 16:40:53
subject: <b>ummm, I have the big white book....do you????</b>
body:
Under Ishamael the first paragraph reads:<br /><br />Foremost of the thirteen who formed the high council of the Shadow's forces was Ishamael, or &quot;Betrayer of Hope&quot; in the Old Tongue.  Also known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark, and Soul of the Shadow, he was assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command.  Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by none but Lews Therin Telamon himself.<br /><br /><br />It goes on but this is all we need.  As we see here, Ishamael is Ba'alzamon, but Ba'alzamon is NOT the Shai'tan.<br />The people in WoT only thought they were the same.  As for Moridin, I really haven't made a decision yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Holder of the bond to Sansa.<br />Channeling war wizard.<br />Commander of jwalka.<br />Banisher of the Killer Chicken.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 14:36:07
subject: <b>Ishamael never died!</b>
body:
I agree with you. Just because Ba'alzamon died doesn't mean that Ishamael did! ( I don't have my books with me to I'm basically going of what you said). Perhaps Ishamael is only lightly linked with B'alzamon and all he did was re-emerge much later as Moridin. Just a thought<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Boromir Rules! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> (whichever looks more like him)<br />Gandalf for President! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />If I'm not back in 5 minutes...just wait longer. -Jim Carrey<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 14:45:48
subject: <b>partially trapped</b>
body:
As was pointed out in one of the posts, Ishy was only partially trapped.  Ba'alzamon used T'A'R almost exclusivley perhaps because he could effect things to a greater degree there.  Yes he had the TP but being only half trapped and using the stuff too much could prolly drive you bonkers, as many of the other Foresaken say he was.  <br />Just because he played off his strengths doesn't mean he's someon else now that he has different strengths.  Now he's not half trapped I don't think he would have to use T'A'R as much.  But remember that just because we didn't see it form his POV doesn't mean it isn't happening.


created: 2002-02-13 11:47:50
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
What?? Uh-uh. Ba'alzamon is Ishy, that's almost certain, thanks to verin and Egwene. You agree that Morry is ishy. Cogito, ergo sum... Baal=Ishy=Morry. Besides, Ishy/Baal was trying to make point when he yelled &quot;you can't defeat...&quot; He was tellind Rand that he couldn't defeat Baal, since Baal was the DO (it is my opinion that Baal either had a plan, or was a little mad).<br /> People change their clothes, you know. I do, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 07:23:37
subject: <b>Geez</b>
body:
It was not Ba'alzamon who Rand fought over Falme or at any time in the series so far. It has always been Ishamael. The DO has been imprisoned the whole time and cannot fight or try to make Rand convert, it's Ishamael who pretends to be the DO. So, your headline I agree with, Moridin is Ishamael reborn and nor Ba'alzamon, but your reasoning is totally wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 10:03:14
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
sorry you woolheaded fool but you made a few good points.in robert jordans book the world of the wheel of time he flat out flamin states that ishmael is ba'alzamon.when rand kills ba'alzamon in the stone of tear you dont see ishmael or hear of him and when ishmael died this so called flamin person named Moridin shows up an claims Nae'blis.death is not always final in these books.since ishmael was the first to go over to the dark he was granted several privliges including the name ba'alzamon. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 12:27:34
subject: <b>They are one in the same.</b>
body:
I say this because of all the hints and similarities between Ishmael and Ba'alzamon as seen through the first 3 books.  I also say this because in the Eye of the World, when Rand encounters Ba'alzamon after going to sleep in The Stag and Lion, that he sees a man in &quot;dark clothes&quot; of &quot;fine cut&quot; which sounds very Ishmael like.<br /><br />Ba'alzamon proceeds to say in his condescending tone that when he gave the Dragon back his sanity he (Therin)could have attacked him with &quot;his precious One Power, though he couldn't have hurt me, he could have tried&quot;. That sounds like disdane for the One Power from the mouth of Ba'alzamon himself.<br /><br />Finally, you remember the final confrontation from The Eye of the World where Rand severs that Dark coil from Ba'alzamon?  That must have been Ba'alzamon's link to the &quot;True Power&quot;.  Maybe once it was sever the link was not re-establihed forcing Ishmael to depend on the One Power once again in battle with Rand in The Dragon Reborn.


created: 2003-02-12 06:06:04
subject: <b>That is just SO untrue!</b>
body:
You say Moridin is Ishamael, but NOT Ba'alzamon.<br />I just want to say that when Rand killed Ba'alzamon, the books said Ba'alzamon, right. But in 'The World of WoT' RJ refers to that moment to Rand killing Ishamael.<br />Ergo: Ishamael IS Ba'alzamon!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;Yes, Betrayer of Hope. They gave me the name to revile me,<br />but I will yet make them kneel and worship it.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />more than 3 exclamation marks, a clear sign of insanity...</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-17 20:02:35
subject: <b>chuckle, a little document....</b>
body:
heart of the dark, ba'alzamon, name hidden within name, shrouded by name,secret burried within secrete cloaked by secrete<br />betrayer of hope, Ishamael betrays all hope, truth burns and seers, hope fails before truth, a lie is our shield,who can stand against the heart of the dark, who can face the betrayer of hope, soul of shadow, soul of the shadow, he is........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Word to ya</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-11 14:45:34
subject: <b>OMG!! I just figured it out..I think...</b>
body:
...Back in the first few books you had Ishy, and Ba'al...in the more recent books you have Moridin, and Haran...I think Ishy/Moridin being Naeblis gets an additional perk, or maybe something in his past occured to cause this, but I think he IS two beings. One that is the standard forsaken, human looking guy, and the other is his, Naeblis form, something that looks like the DO's servant.<br /><br />Just a random thought.<br /><br />I will do more research and post a theory later.<br /><br />


created: 2008-02-19 12:24:12
subject: <b>duh</b>
body:
we already know this becasue it says right inthe book that everyone but rand knows that moridin is ishamael and we already know he was not ba'alzamon because ishamael was so mad he always thought he was


created: 2008-08-19 21:34:12
subject: <b>Ishamael=Moridin Ba'alzamon=Ishamael+Shadar Haran</b>
body:
As mentioned, he was &quot;half trapped.&quot; I'm wondering if this division caused him to develop a split personality. Ishamael was released at first, and restored Lews Therin. Then, when the seals began to weaken, his other half-driven mad by the imprisonment-rejoined with him, creating Ba'alzamon. When Ba'alzamon died, the Dark One revived the previously imprisoned half by placing it into a myrdraal, and the True Power changed the myrdraal into Shadar Haran. He revived Ishamael as Moridin. Because the seals aren't fully broken, Shadar Haran must return to Shayol Ghul on occasion, as he mentioned. Moridin's personality is the personality of the free Ishamael from the book 1 prologue, but completely different from Ba'alzamon.


created: 2001-10-11 17:38:39
subject: <b>Not unicorn</b>
body:
It`s more likely a Rhino <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-11 18:00:44
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
It sounds pretty good to me. It makes a lot of sense. I didn't find any flaws, but I'm not as familiar with the facts since I've only read the series once, so far. *dodges icy glares* I'll leave the critiqing to the experts. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">ummm</font><font face="kartika"><font color="000099">aludra</font><br /><font color="green">it takes a lot to make me crazy<br />and a lot is always going on<br /></font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 19:59:05
subject: <b>About the Bond</b>
body:
Your reasoning that Moraine is dead because the bond was broken doesn't quite hold. Note that in Tear the entire time she was in the land of the Aelfinn the connection to her world remained. When she and Lanfear went into the door to the Eelfinn that door way melted into slag. So now she's in what seems to be antoher plane of existence with no connection to her own world. That may account for the breaking of the bond. Also she may have been stilled and not killed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 21:29:42
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
The comment Thom made will mean there is a type of barter system.  He sticks his hand into the fire to get the stone, but if you stick your hand in fire, it's probably going to be burned.  I think he'll go to the Tower of Ghenjei with his knives and harp, and say that he will not stop torturing these poor gypsies until Moiraine gets back.  They offer a trade, which he will reject, so then they bring out their big mechanical monster of doom and other bad stuff, and then Thom surrenders himself to bring Moiraine back.  So now Thom's dead, and Moiraine is back.  What does she do?  She grabs an angreal, and rushes to Rand's side just as Semirhage is about to kill him, balefires her (things come in threes), then she'll be killed from another Forsaken, and go back to Thom's side in the afterlife.  Of course, though, Thom will have helped to down the Red Ajah before he heads off to the Tower, and does so near the Last Battle, only fifty books away!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 04:23:01
subject: <b>The future after she left Randland</b>
body:
The small thing she knew would happen that did not concern Rand was Nyna getting Lan was it not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Tweak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Four17 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tai'Shan an Dovienya <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> True Lord of Luck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br />Deviant's Older (but smaller) Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 07:31:49
subject: <b>What about...</b>
body:
I don't think they were the three questions she asked in the doorway. I don't know which one of yours to leave out, but she deffinately knew that she'd have to kill lanfear the way she did, and we can see that by the way she prepared for that moment, and how she knew to be in the right place at the right time. She also knew everything that would happen up to that pont. One of her questions deffinately resulted in her finding that out. I would suggest that the question she didn't ask was the one about rand and the aiel waste.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 09:27:59
subject: <b>Too early to know</b>
body:
She learned about Lanfear from the rings in Rhuidien.<br /><br />One thing, has she seen Thom again since she said she would? I don't believe she has (I'm pretty damn certain), so certainly one of her answers equated to Thom...I just can't figure out the question. It doesn't make sense to me that she would ask anything about Thom or the girls at all. We know her focus has been constantly on Rand and doing whatever it takes to make sure he wins the Last Battle, she'd direct her questions towards that as much as she could (without touching the Shadow).<br /><br />I really don't think we've seen enough yet to discover what questions she's asked, although I'm sure we will eventually figure out the answers at least.<br /><br />The comment that she makes after Rand says to trust him and he's going to the waste is interesting. Perhaps one of her answers told her that the greatest risk of Rand being turned to the Shadow will happen in the Waste. That would explain her trying to persuade and not to go and also the comment. Also, Moiraine is not stupid, she knows that this danger would come from one of the Forsaken, so when she went to the Waste she would have been on the lookout for them, again explaining how she discovered Asmodeon (well, really she will have discovered him by listening in from a distance to Rand's conversations, but she was only doing that as she was actively searching).


created: 2001-10-12 10:27:30
subject: <b>Problem with your theory...</b>
body:
&quot;Where did she learn it? Not in the rings for sure, because you live many lives in their, not afterlives.&quot;<br /><br />There is a problem with that - Although I didn't check it in the book I distinctly remember the Wise One mentioning there are 3 rings - One for past, one for future, and one for present. Rand obviously used the past. Moiraine must have used the future ring, thus allowing her to find out the information.<br /><br />Remember, the rings CAN show the future, because she found out about how Lanfear was to die from the RINGS, not the ter'angreal. Therefore, that is most likely where she found out the other as well.


created: 2001-10-12 11:09:20
subject: <b>&quot;one small thing&quot;</b>
body:
&quot;I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you&quot;<br /><br />The ring through which Moiraine passed shows a person many of their own alternate futures.It does not show the <br />afterlife.When she passed through the rings she learned that one of three possible events would take place on the <br />day that she attacked Lanfear.One of these was that Rand became Lanfear's slave.She knew that she would pass <br />through the arch, and if this killed her how does she know what will happen after.<br /><br />As for the &quot;one small thing&quot;, she may well have learned this in Tear, however it is possible that in all of the her <br />alternate futures, or most of them, that she saw something else happen.


created: 2001-10-12 11:46:45
subject: <b>Good work</b>
body:
The debate over what she learned at Rhuidean and what she learned through the doorway is as yet undecided, but she knew for certain that Thom would survive Tanchico and that she would have to deal with Lanfear or the futures she mentioned would occur.  Where she learned these things is open to debate.  The other things seem less certain to me.<br />The idea of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn reading the Word of Dreams to find the future doesn't strike me as likely.  I thought about the Portal Stones just now, but how would the Ae/Eelfinn sort out the possibilities from the true future?  <br />I think I'm just going to say that it's another case of RAFO, for the umpteenth time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 13:31:38
subject: <b>Moraine and Thom</b>
body:
There have been many hints that Moraine will someday marry <br />Thom. (At one point Moraine makes some comment about knowing <br />the face of the man she will marry.) Whether this is a <br />result of Min's viewing (in the first book in Baerlon) or <br />from her trip through the rings in Tar Valon (when raised <br />as accepted) I don't know. I suspect she saw Thom in the <br />rings (which is why she agreed to let him accompany them <br />leaving the Two Rivers) and Min informed Moraine that she <br />saw a marriage in store for the two of them. <br /><br />I think this will account for much of Moraine's knowledge of<br />the future.


created: 2001-10-12 14:00:37
subject: <b>I don't think Moiraine ever died</b>
body:
Everyone seems to think that it's a given that Moiraine is dead, but I disagree.  She said, &quot;I don't know what happens in the world after...&quot; Obviously she doesn't know what happens in Rand's word, because she was not there.  I say she saw herself going to finnland and whereas the finns killed Lanfear (which is why she had to be reborn as Cyndane) they played a mean trick (or some kind of punishment?) on Moiraine by sending her to Seanchan where she was made damane.  I'm pretty sure that she is Mylen, Tuon's special pride among the six damane that she brought - the one who is fair skinned and even shorter than Tuon. The one who was a perfect damane. Moiraine is highly intelligent. The intelligent thing to do when captured by sul'dam is to not fight, otherwise you inevitably get broken.  By being 'perfect', Moiraine keeps her sense of self and her purpose in mind, waiting for the day when she can escape.  Well, that's what I think anyway. And yeah, I say that when the doorframe melted, it broke the connection to Lan.


created: 2001-10-12 14:30:07
subject: <b>Breaking of the bond</b>
body:
I believe the bond between Lan and Moiriane was broken by the destruction of the doorway not by her death. The doorway provides a link between the dimensions (for want of a better word) therefor the link was not broken when she entered the doorway in Tear


created: 2001-10-12 14:41:48
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
She's not the perfect damane. She is another Aes Sedai that we met briefly, I don't remember her name but I'm sure someone else will tell you.<br /><br />Can we try and keep the books' timelines in order please. Moiraine did not let Thom come along because of the rings, she hadn't been through the rings yet.<br /><br />Moiraine did not find out about Lanfear in Tear. In the Fires of Heaven, Chp 53 Fading Words, her letter says &quot;Since the day I reached Rhuidean, I have known...&quot; and then goes onto say how she knew that news of Morgase would come and then the Lanfear/docks thing would happen. So it's the rings. Also, I doubt the Aelfinn give possible futures, going on Mat's answers, they know what is going to happen.<br /><br />I agree that the bond broke because of the doorway melting.


created: 2001-10-12 16:41:49
subject: <b>a couple comments</b>
body:
first of all, i think that the eelfinn are the snakey guys in tear and the aelfinn are the foxey guys in rhuidian.  Also, in terms of knowledge from the finn, i think that she found out that rand ran a risk of being turned to the shadow if he went in to the waste, and although moirane didn't know it at the time, that risk was lanfear.  In terms of what she said to thom, it could mean anything.  Aes Sedai can lie if they think what they say is true, so it may just be that.  who knows.  anyway...i have forgotten all the other points i wanted to make, so i bid you adeu.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />a wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 21:47:36
subject: <b>What about what Perrin learned in the Dreamworld?</b>
body:
I can't remember specificly what book it was but I know that Perrin was chasing after Slayer in the World of Dreams and he saw slayer go in the Tower of Genji I think it was.  As Perrin prepared to go in there Hopper came and said something like that is the entrance to the realm of the Aelfinn and the Elfinn and that it was almost immpossible to escape from.  Why don't they go there and free her?  Also on a side note, Can you Travel to those worlds or do you have to have a gateway?


created: 2001-10-14 12:51:24
subject: <b>Did you ever know that you're my hero?</b>
body:
Moiraine died. Min's Viewing was correct, Moiraine will be present at the Last Battle. When Mat, or whoever (if dying unlinked him from the horn) blows the Horn of Valere, Moiraine will return as one of the heroes of the horn. Already she's becoming a legend among the aes sedai, being the only one of them to kill like, three forsaken. She died while saving the Dragon Reborn from one of the Forsaken. I think that makes her a hero. The horn of valere will bring moiraine back to fight in the last battle. i dont know what that means for her and thom, though.


created: 2001-10-14 18:04:19
subject: <b>My turn....</b>
body:
Way up there somewhere, DarkHawk said that Rand whent through one ofe those rings that the wise one's girls go through. That's wrong. He went through a completley different ter'angreal. The one he went through was like many circles placed in a row, like a tunnel.<br /><br />I also have a distinct memory that Tuons favourite damane is another Aes Sedai. <br />(I even think she's Black Ajah, but I'm not sure.)<br /><br />As for the thoery, I like it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />It sounds well thougth through, and you openly admit that some parts are fuzzy.<br /><br />(Now please, I'm no expert o the series, I've only read the books twice, and only one in english)<br />(see, I'm a swede) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />(Jag vill leva, jag vill d&#246;&#214;, I NOOOOORDEN!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 18:10:38
subject: <b>Moiraine's Questions</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Moiraine make a comment that one of the questions she asked was about how to get Rand to listen to her?  Specifically, what would happen if she slept with him?  <br /><br />I don't remember the specific quote or the book.  Sorry.  Maybe she learned it in Rhuidean though.


created: 2001-10-17 12:00:19
subject: <b>Rhuidean</b>
body:
I think Moiraine thought something like, &quot;The rings had shown THAT would have been a disaster,&quot; when she was thinking about even taking him into her bed. X)


created: 2002-01-04 19:20:04
subject: <b>Agreed.</b>
body:
I think that Rand alTOR is right. Remember the page 324 in Winters Heart? Toun thinks like this... <br /><br />&quot;..Mylen was proof of that. The pale little damane had been half-dead with shock and fear, refusing to eat or drink, when Toun bought her...&quot;<br /><br />Notice that the damane is PALE, LITTLE (Short,small.. like Moraine). Toun also &quot;thought&quot; that the damane had been &quot;half-dead&quot; when she (Toun) found her. Probably because of the shock when the nasty guys behind the doorway threw her out again.. <br /><br />I also believe that Lanfear was killed upon entering the doorway because the &quot;nasty guys&quot; don't like that shadow at all. Remember when Moraine said that questions about the shadow could kill you or driwe you mad? Well, imagine their reaction when a shadowrunner enters their world (or Genjhis tower, whatever)!!.


created: 2002-01-05 23:05:17
subject: <b>Mylen and Moiraine</b>
body:
At last!!!  Finally someone else who brought this up...<br /><br />When I re-read the part about Tuon and her damane in Winter's Heart something caught my attention regarding Mylen.<br /><br />I agree that what Rand alTOR and SwedensTeddy mentioned was exactly what I thought.<br /><br />I sat there and wondered...&quot;What if... we know the Finns are devious, and they can transport people where they like - Mat was hung on a tree without any recollection of getting there...and they are spitefully devious also.&quot;<br /><br />Wish-granting throughout countless legends and stories is often hinted to be deceptive.  Leprachauns as we know will steal all 3 wishes when they give you a fourth and a genie will try to escape its lamp by deceiving.  The Finns seem to be equally as deceptive, and the price they pay for granting wishes is to outsmart the wish-maker!<br /><br />My belief is this... Lanfear was killed and the Foxes took her body and made lovely flesh-like clothes to wear, Moiraine got her wishes out first and was granted them.<br /><br />I believe that one of them was an increased strength in the One Power - and since Lanfear happened to be nearby, they took some of it from her!  Remember the Finns live in a reality with its own laws - so far anything may be possible.<br /><br />Assuming that they did this to Lanfear, it would explain her weaker state in the Power... but if they didn't, it still brings up the possible Mylen theory.<br /><br />For a while there I thought Alivia was Moiraine returned... the Finns sent her back in time and into a new body... but like I said, when I re-read Tuon and her damane, Mylen's name leapt out at me and I had to stop and wonder...<br /><br />I still however wonder if the whole Moiraine is in the Tower of Ghenji is in fact the truth, but it would be a wonderful twist if she turned out to be with Tuon's damane...<br /><br />With Mat, Tuon and gang now fleeing Ebou Dar, Tuon may want her damane for protection - which is highly likely...<br /><br />A more likely scenario might be - Anath learns Tuon is missing and leads the damane and suldum to find her... remember now Thom and the others left Mat and Ebou Dar via a different route - what would the odds be that perhaps they are ambushed or waylaid by Anath and said 6 damane and assuming (and I am ASSUMING HERE NOT STATING) Mylen is Moiraine, Thom rescues her, Egwene's dream is fulfilled and all live happily ever after... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*breathes a sigh of relief*<br /><br />Who knows though if Mylen is Moiraine, possibly not but then again it would be a wonderful joke on RJ's part to us the readers if she was.  I suppose the truth surrounding Moiraine and Lanfear will have to wait until it is later revealled!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: However if Mylen is Moiraine... Liandrin is running around as Suroth's lackey... wouldn't they have bumped into each other by now?  Then again what might happen if they do?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Andy</i><br /><br /><i> Wicca of Downunder </i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Formely known as Clef <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Magically inclined in the good way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Magic Turnip&#8482; and the Chatroom Breadstick&#8482; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 16:44:49
subject: <b>The Jewel</b>
body:
a really good one, i think. but justone question does the jewel mentioned in the dream have to be Moiraine's jewel as in the one she wears on her head, or could it be &quot;moiraine's jewel&quot; as in one of those things which moridin or wot eva his names is keeps souls in? and therefore couldn't Thom in some way be pulling moiraine back from the dark one? long shot i no, but have a think about it.


created: 2002-03-03 20:00:44
subject: <b>Moiraine and the Horn</b>
body:
I had similar thoughts to AndrewGRose about Moiraine coming back as a hero of the horn.  I thought she would kinda replace Birgitte.  Since she was ripped out of the world of dreams before her time, she would lose her link to the horn and thus leave a place to be filled.


created: 2002-03-12 19:20:46
subject: <b>Moiraine and Doors</b>
body:
The door in Tear was not destroyed while there were visitors within.  Lan's bond was passed only after the doorway to another plane of existance was destroyed.  Moiraine is still trapped within that realm.  Retrieving her is probably going to fall to Thom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 06:07:50
subject: <b>Hrm....</b>
body:
Eelfinn and Aelfinn. I wouldn't give them credit as being all powerful wishgranters and future seers. They have to have some limitations, keep that in mind.<br /><br />I don't think anything as extravagant as power switching between Mairaine and Lanfear is plausable.<br /><br />AndrewG, I must say, I love your idea about the blowing of the horn explaning Moraine's presence at TG.<br /><br />However, I believe that she's still alive, either found and Damane now, or still in the A(E)elfinn realm. If they can craft things that protect from the channeling, why couldn't they (possibly) shield their realm from it? If in this plain, the OP doesn't work, or bonds are broken, maybe it just got severed. They do talk about bonds being able to be just broken, like turned off almost. <br /><br />Moraine WASN'T stilled. They specifially talk about what happens to Warders who have their AS counterparts stilled. They go batty, get sick, die, go through a period of heavy drinking and depression (whatever).<br /><br />So, if she's not dead (which still is a definite possibility), and not stilled, she's either in the realm of the finn's, or alive and trapped/captured. If she's captured, who are pretty much the only people that could keep her captured, what with the channeling and all? Well, the Seanchan with their damane collars (Mylen..?) , or the evil doo-ers, Lanfear and the bunch. And I think if Lanfear (in her most probibly latest incarnation) knew about having her, she'd be killing her, or using her.<br /><br />If she IS Mylen, wouldn't Liandrin have recognized her by now though? (Liandrin is Suroth's bitch...)<br /><br />If Moraine was killed, she probibly won't be brought back to life as a spy, or whatever. I just don't think he'd do it.... too cheesey.<br /><br />I really like the idea of her getting rescued from the Spire, since Perrin knows a little about it. BTW: In old mythology, one way to enter an Alfheim or Elphame world was to walk around a hidden gate three times, counter clockwise, I belive. Perrin had walked around the structure two times, and then hopper stopped him, warning him it was an enterance.... Hmmmm.......<br /><br />If she is in 'finnland', then there is a way to get there, that at least one character has an idea how to enter. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br />I seriously need to re-read all of the soulstone info. It could be quite possible that the jewel that Thom pulls is indeed that, or some other representation of he rescuing her.... The idea of the two merging is interesting. It would explain the whole &quot;Memories of the AOL, but feels like she's from this age&quot; thing..... Hrm..... Maybe he can rescue her half, or seperate them, or free her soul from the jewel, but not Lanfears.... things to be considered..<br /><br />Most of this is just idea..... brainstorming and such. I gotta go re-read some stuff now....<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 21:22:22
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
Just a thought on Moraine being dead and that is the only way the bond could have broaken.  If I am correct the bond is kind of like a string tied between the Warder and the AS, so when a magical portal is destroyed, like the one M and Lanfear went through the bond would be severed not in death but like a knife cutting through the proverbial string


created: 2002-04-30 00:02:20
subject: <b>RE: Moiraine &amp; Doors</b>
body:
I'm wondering if Moiraine's &quot;link&quot; to Thom comes from something else altogether.  Remember in the first book when Mat &amp; Rand were convinced he was dead, Moiraine was the only one who persisted in believing he was still alive.  I think that Min's viewing of Moiraine involved Thom.  There's a hint that Thom is Moiraine's future husband, from the conversation she had with Egwene, etc about who she would marry... something to the effect of her already knowing the face of the man she'd marry, but then blew them off with a piece of Aes Sedai sidestepping when they wanted to know who he was.  <br />About the doors:  I think the difference between her going thru the door in Tear vs the door in Cairhien was that the link to her world was never severed when she went thru the doorway in Tear.  The doorway she went thru with Lanfear was destroyed, placing her in another world with no way back... which would effectively sever her bond with Lan.<br />There's no question that Thom will rescue her, somehow.  If she doesn't turn back up in book 10, then she should be back by &lt;dare I say it?&gt; book 11.  She is somehow key to helping Rand win the Last Battle, per Min's viewings.  <br />Side thought.  Eventually, I think Mat will realize that the game 'Snakes &amp; Foxes' is a parallel to the Eelfin and Aelfin, and how to beat them at their own game.  Thom is a gleeman... music, juggling fire, throwing knives... which is all anathema to the 'Snakes &amp; Foxes' on the other side of the doorway. I forget how the rhyme goes exactly but 'music to daze, fire to blind,' etc and so on which the Snakes &amp; Foxes on the other side of the doorways ask immediately if you have (musical instruments, fire, iron).  Mat can't go back thru the doorways, but it's possible he could tell Thom about them, since Thom is still travelling with him.  Thom's smart enough to take matters in his own hands from there.  I also suspect that before too much longer, Mat &amp; Co. will be on their way to Seanchan.  Who knows?  Maybe some doorway ter'angreal made it to Seanchan, and they'll be able to get into the same world Moiraine ended up in from there. At that point, even Mat could probably go back through.. since it's a different door.  You can only use the door ter'angreal once... but if there's another one that goes to the same place then there's a potential loophole.  Although I doubt Mat is in any hurry to visit with the Snakes or Foxes ever again himself. <br />So anyhow, that's my more than two cents worth.  Feel free to pick it apart... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 07:25:02
subject: <b>Moiraine is not Mylen...</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart Teslyn talks to Mat about other Aes Sedai damane, and mentions mylen under the name she knew her as, which she won't answer to any more, and it is not Moiraine. Teslyn should know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Green and Mat fan! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 13:26:03
subject: <b>The finns</b>
body:
I disagree with nickIQ on one major point.<br />When mat went into the doorway in Rhuidean, his head got stuffed with other peoples memories. How?<br /><br />It would be possible just by adding them to his head but I think they somehow mixed his mind with those dead people. If true, they could take part of Lanfears mind (whatever carries the ability to chanel and the strength in the One Power)and give it to Moiraine. Iven if they only packed his mind full with the memories, to do that, they must be able to control death and reach dead spirits. I thereby assume that they have can mix with peoples bodies and minds (especially if what they involve is dead such as Mierin). I agree though that she vey well can be a Leashed One. People seem to think up amazing theories sometimes<br /><br />Topace_III<br />Guardian of destiny<br />Member of the first order of death <br />And a lot of other stuff<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-13 01:27:44
subject: <b>Unicorns</b>
body:
I don't know about the rest of your babble, but the unicorn part is in Fires of Heaven and is a very sensible theory.


created: 2002-08-14 21:56:44
subject: <b>Lanfear's loss/Moiraine's gain</b>
body:
I will agree with you on one point.  I believe that Moiraine's ability with the One Power will be augmented to the tune of how much weaker Cyndane is as opposed to what she used to be.  That would make it much easier for Moiraine to say, work Rand's trick of making himself look differently...He rippled and stretched taller... p. 272, WH.  She's not going to be any further from him that she has to.  Having risked her life for him once, she will do what it takes.  Take what you want and pay for it.  I think she will make an excellent deal with the Eelfinn and come out much stronger in both power and ability.


created: 2002-08-30 02:23:12
subject: <b>what she knows about afterlife</b>
body:
one thing about this theory - where its mentioned in moiraine's letter that she doesn't know what happens after - except for one thing which doesn't concern him... I think this can only refer to Lan and Nyneave, and she only know this because she has passed his bond to Myrelle to eventually be given to Nyneave. And that is one thing which really would not concern Rand at all. Just a small point...


created: 2002-09-11 08:41:05
subject: <b>Moiraine has to be healed</b>
body:
We've all established RJ leaves very little loose ends, <br />and I don't think he had Irgain restored to full ability by <br />an Ashaman for nothing. After all, Siuan, Logain and Leane, <br />the only other important characters who were stilled are <br />already healed. It is because Moiraine has lost the ability <br />to channel, either by burning out, or by trading her ability <br />to channel for something more important during her dealings <br />with the finn, and has to regain the ability before TG. <br />Also we know from what happened to Irgains warder that <br />stilling caused exactly the same symptons as death of the <br />Aes Sedai. Remember, Lan would have committed suicide if <br />Rand hadn't stopped him. <br />


created: 2002-10-13 19:51:53
subject: <b>Interesting thoughts</b>
body:
I liked the idea about the Dark One bringing her back to serve him.  Except (maybe!!!) for Sheriam, there is no one who has been turned to the Shadow against their will and Jordan has developed that way too much.  Maybe Thom will do something to save her.  Whether or not this actually happens, at least it's not another &quot;mat will give the Finns his eye in the Tower of Ghenjei&quot; theory.


created: 2002-10-31 01:33:09
subject: <b>Fire and Gambling</b>
body:
This is what I think:  Thom puuling Moiraine's jewel out of the fire can mean two things.  The first is the fire is death, held by the Dark One.  The second is the fire is danger of some kind, related to the Finns.<br /><br />As for Mat, losing an eye, gambling with blooding dripping from one eyesocket.  He now knows about making a bargain with the Eelfinn (or whichever the Foxes are) and will make a bargain, something of the sort like &quot;If I win, [you (the Finns) will bring Moiraine back from the dead (iff the fire is death), and] we (Mat, Thom, and Moiraine) get to go free back to the real world.  He needs an ante, and the Finns choose his eye.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-16 12:03:55
subject: <b>couple o' things</b>
body:
I posted this before, but can't find any replies.  I agree with the above post from Andy.  Mat did not walk back out of the doorway.  after his 3 requests, he was hung for the price.  Moiraine should know the price being that she is so smart, so who is to say she is not already back in Randworld, just not in the storyline.  Nice touch if she is collared, but the problem then lies in the bond with Lan.  I'm not sure, but could she have passed the bond when she fell thru the doorway thinking she was going to die, and Lan just thought she died?  As for her 3 request, she thinks she will be back to help Rand, so why not ask for more power.  She is willing to risk death to help Rand, so she would pay any price to get stronger to take on the forsaken.  just thoughts while I wait for CoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">lowmanbuys<br />And I'm tired of buying! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What would men be without women?<br />Scarce sir, mighty scarce. -Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 19:39:26
subject: <b>Tam was second in command of the illian companions</b>
body:
i think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Carlos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> If there were no god it would be necessary to create him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 02:22:26
subject: <b>Umm.. a little weak</b>
body:
In all those years, someone else must have left the 2R's to go somewhere.  Perhaps she once went to Baerlon as they do occasionally go there.<br /><br />More likely than Tam, Morgase probably talked to Bela.  Yeah.  I think I came up with something about Bela no one has come up with yet.


created: 2001-10-13 03:43:03
subject: <b>elaboration</b>
body:
Tam was the Second Captain of the Illian Companians<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 03:46:33
subject: <b>Erth/earth</b>
body:
I've read books wich definately did NOT take place on earth but the people who lived on this planet who knew it wasnt earth still had no name for it but earth<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 11:27:12
subject: <b>you are still Wrong!</b>
body:
Wotworld is mars!<br />proof you ask? I have it.<br />god tall me.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />p.s:&quot; all you need is narg&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-14 04:08:38
subject: <b>I recall</b>
body:
I think I recall somebody saying somewhere in the books saying &quot;......... is the greatest city on Earth&quot;. I think it was in tEotW. I can't remember what city, but I do remember it. I think this is a pretty clear seperation of earth/Earth. <br /><br />Not that I really think the books take place on earth. There's not enough evidence to suggest one way or the other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 02:56:49
subject: <b>Of course i know her!</b>
body:
A comley lass, to be sure. Not a story for other's ears, though. But, there was that one time in the throne room....Oh! And the maid's quarters! And... No. I told her it was only between us...<br /><br />Now, to answer some questions. 1: I was second in command of the Illian Companions. 2:That farmer said &quot;The greatest city in the world&quot; If i'm not mistaken. I think that fool boy Rand ran off with my books again. Wild boy, to be sure.<br /><br />Besides, who cares if it takes place on earth (as in our world. Wait I'm Tam...???) If you want to read a series about earth, go and read Word and Void, by the incomperable Terry Brooks, then read the entire Shannara epic, including the new guide. Now THAT's Earth over a span of like, 2500 years. Now for a mug of ale with Bran...


created: 2001-10-15 06:13:32
subject: <b>Earth?</b>
body:
I dont think it takes place on Earth.<br /><br />However the charachters refer to their world as the Earth.<br /><br />&quot;The greatest cit on the earth&quot;-Caemlyn


created: 2001-10-16 16:42:23
subject: <b>I think Burr lost it...</b>
body:
Blargh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 10:37:07
subject: <b>Great account of &quot;Earth&quot; by Burr</b>
body:
&quot;Earth&quot; is a generic and natural name of the planet on which one resides, and is naturally bound to the word &quot;earth&quot;, which designates the land, ground, whatever it is we stand on (which of course also happens to be the planet in question). Even if it's ACTUALLY called &quot;Blargh&quot; in Randland, that connection between &quot;earth&quot; and &quot;Earth&quot; is a natural one, and gives a natural translation that still keeps up the connection between the word used for &quot;earth&quot; and the name used for their planet. This does not mean their &quot;Earth&quot; is our &quot;Earth&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 15:59:45
subject: <b>Earth</b>
body:
Mercedes Benz symbol - feeling of pride<br /><br />Lenn (John Glenn) to the Moon in the belly of an Eagle (The Eagle has landed)<br /><br />Merc (America) and Mosc (Moscow) and their war with lances of fire (nukes)<br /><br />Many others.  If it is not &quot;the Earth&quot; it is parallel, or he is yanking our chain.<br />


created: 2002-08-04 16:51:38
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I totally agree. We know Tam left the Two Rivers.Very few people ever leave and none rise to such importance that they could meet Morgase.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 11:10:53
subject: <b>wotworld and our world</b>
body:
I think there is enough evidence to make the claim that wotworld is a parallel world to ours, as posted by Shinowa.  However, it could not be our exact world, for as far as I know, no one on our world can wield the one power.  (not for lack of trying, I am sure)


created: 2002-09-21 20:45:43
subject: <b>Slight Trip</b>
body:
1 Tam is most likely the person that Morgase met just as it has been stated before not many people leave Two Rivers and those that do mor likey than not they did not become any body that a queen would have met this of course excludes the most recent exodous of two river foke<br /><br />now for the trip to find us form randland (using it to make distenion) go to the nearest portel stone look under other dimentions press go <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-10 01:06:22
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
well, i was expecting something earth-shattering, like that Morgayze was really rands mother, until i remembered that tam isn't rands father at all (D'oh &gt;_<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />, but all in all, i guess it could be true, 'sept that 'cause it really doesn't have a whole lotta point to it, these events could just be coincedence, and jordan never really meant nething by them, but of course knowing jordan, everything comes back, so ya never know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Nynaeves fellow braid tugger<br />Sitter of the tie dye tower<br />Tulleel Sedai of the Teal ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, but the will of the wheel is really what I am willing it to weave,&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-28 00:46:36
subject: <b>Why does Tam have to be from the Two Rivers?</b>
body:
Now if Tam wanted to join an army, wouldn't it make sense to join the Andoran Army.  Why would he go all the way down to Illian just to join an army.  Now if Tam was from somewhere else, (like somewhere in Illian) then that would explain the reason he was in the Illian army.  I can't quote very well, but I would like someone to tell me that it says he left the two rivers and came back.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-05 13:38:31
subject: <b>Tam is from the Two Rivers</b>
body:
Everyone in two rivers who knew him before said that he left and returned with a child and a wife, not that he showed one day with his family


created: 2004-02-16 16:16:36
subject: <b>Tam Is From the Two Rivers and Paralells with Our World</b>
body:
In tEotW (I think, I don't have my books with me) Nynaeve tells Rand that Moiraine doesn't need to know that Tam al'Thor left the Two Rivers as a young man and came back with a young outlander wife and a child.  <br /><br />As for parellels between our world and theirs there are tons of them between some dress styles, food which is eaten by two sticks with a method of holding them parelell to each other (hello chopsticks anyone?), King Arthur Pendragon and Artur Paendrag Hawkwing, and lots of others that I can't think of right now.  I had never thought of the particular ones that Shinowa brought up, but I really like them.  <br /><br />And to further prove the point, RJ made this comment in a USA Today online Q/A session recently (To read the full Q/A session go to http://cgil.usatoday.com/mchat/20040106007<br /><br />Q: &#8220;I&#8217;ve noticed that many names, items etc. are similar, if not the same, as what could be found in material relating to the Holy Grail and other subject matter relating to Catholicism, the Crusades, etc.  Is this coincidence or intentional?&#8221;<br />A: &#8220;It&#8217;s intentional.  I have intended from the beginning that these books should be a sort of source for all of our legends and myths.  That is the conceit that I&#8217;m playing with here.&#8221;<br /><br />So I guess that&#8217;s basically saying that RJ does see this as being either a paralell of our world or our ancient history maybe?  <br />Has anyone ever thought of starting a thread discussing the parallels that can be found?<br />


created: 2005-03-05 16:32:43
subject: <b>cant stop reading</b>
body:
Modern day earth i think would b the 1st age, second being when the Messiah return and perfect utopia, then the third when man enevitably grows arrogant a destroys himself<br /><br />Mercedes Benz symbol - feeling of pride<br /><br />Lenn (John Glenn) to the Moon in the belly of an Eagle (The Eagle has landed)<br /><br />Merc (America) and Mosc (Moscow) and their war with lances of fire (nukes)<br /><br />Mat seems to equal Odin, hanging from the world tree (Yggdrasil vs. Avendesora) to gain wisdom, losing an eye - theorized, inventing (runes vs. gunpowder weaponry - theorized).<br /><br />Artur Hawkwing seems to be Arthur son of Uther Pendragon (also noted was al'Thor the Dragon sounding phonetically like Uther Pendragon - and after all, he did pull the sword from the stone).<br />The Dragon and this symbol.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />RJ stating somewhere that he really -did- mean to have mythological influences.<br /><br />Rand seems to be Jesus' counterpart (sorry religious people, but fiction - I'm referring to WoT - can do that!)<br />Hows that 4 explining the parallelss eh?<br /> ne ways just to name a few i know there a better examples but i cant find them right now<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon will be raised up as the Shadow's Champion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-01 10:16:06
subject: <b>just a little help</b>
body:
The taren ferry people would most probably have different accents as there has been a lot of breeding and traveling between them and the outside world as shown when verin and allana look for girls who can channel this rules out taren ferry and only leaves deven ride which is smaller than emonds field so unless someone from there went and got into a position where they could meet a queen or powerful noble depending on which moragse was at the time that only leaves tam


created: 2008-02-28 14:51:28
subject: <b>Tam the traveller</b>
body:
I think this is a very plausible theory.  <br /><br />Since we know that Tam did leave the Two Rivers years ago, and did fight in the Aiel war, and did reach the rank of Second Captain and blademaster in the Illianner army, it is quite possible that he would have had some chance to be presented to Morgase and Taringail.<br /><br />That doesn't mean Morgase would have remembered his name or rank, but if you have an ear for accents, you remember one that is unusual.  It must be remembered that there had been serious events in her family too - Luc gone into the blight, Tigraine gone the Light (and Gitara Sedai) knows where, her marriage to Taringail - she had a lot on her plate and not much call to remember a stocky Second Captain of Illian.  Although maybe if he was slightly ta'veren Elaida would have remembered him...


created: 2001-10-12 20:34:29
subject: <b>Or maybe...</b>
body:
In an alternate life, the medallion was a frying pan and it was simply remembering the good old days.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 23:07:14
subject: <b>Birgitte will kill it</b>
body:
This theory could explain how Birgitte could become known in the world as Birgitte silverbow.  They will somehow find out about the gholam's silver weakness and Birgitte will get some silver arrowheads and bust a move.  Her name of Birgitte Silverbow will be fufilled.


created: 2001-10-13 01:58:41
subject: <b>Sacred Silver</b>
body:
...maybe the medallion has been somehow &quot;blessed&quot;, like religious relics are.  It was obviously made by and for those with strength in the one power.


created: 2001-10-13 08:03:31
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
In the gholam's thoughts, he said it was the first time he had felt pain. Do you really think that in all thise years it had killing people no one ever tried to kill it will a sword that had silver engravings and touched it? I'm sure it must have come into contact with silver at one point, a lady's necklace, whatever.


created: 2001-10-13 19:24:24
subject: <b>Well, actually ...</b>
body:
It&#8217;s likely the Gholam has NOT been killing people for a great many years.  It seems (no conclusive evidence available) that it/he was asleep inside a Statis Box for the past 3000+ years and had only recently &quot;awakened&quot; when he met Mat with that cool Foxhead Medallion.<br /><br />That battle could very well have been the FIRST time the Shapeshifter ever came in contact with anything silver. But I think it's doubtful that MERE silver could hurt the Gholam, and even more so that MERE silver could stop or disrupt the Power.<br /><br />I'm of the theory that the necklace was in some way &quot;blessed&quot;, &quot;charmed&quot;, or otherwise imbued with those special properties and just happened to be silver beforehand.  Perhaps the medallion had to be silver for the process to work, but we can't start suggesting that anyone with a silver earring, or nose ring, or hair clip or whatever is safe from the Blood Drinker or the Bitch Ajah.  Um... I meant Black Ajah. Really, I did! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Kahn


created: 2001-10-14 07:05:46
subject: <b>&quot;Don't cross the streams...&quot;</b>
body:
Blessings? Charms? In a world where there is almost none of the religious practices of our own world? <br /><br />Where actual &quot;magic&quot; and &quot;gods&quot; are proven to exist and affect people every day?<br /><br />This seems to contradict the entire literary fabric of the world RJ has created.<br /><br />So far, there are only two things in RJ's world that are &quot;immune&quot; to the Power: stedding and Mat's medallion.<br /><br />Now, the gholams might be Shadowspawn that have portable steddings on their persons/built into them....but it seems more likely that they avoid the OP just like Mat's medallion does.<br /><br />And why CAN'T these two similar things NOT harm each other? <br />In the film 'Terminator 2', the most obvious example, the only thing that kills the 'liquid-metal' guy is....liquid metal.<br /><br />And &quot;children of the 80's&quot; like myself might also remember my movie quote, where the only thing that the aforementioned 'streams' can't touch is each other.<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-14 12:20:42
subject: <b>One important question...</b>
body:
Why didn't touching the gholam harm the medallion?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-14 12:31:11
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Have U guys read the books at all?</b>

body:
Mat`s medalion is a Ter`angeal that stops weaves from saidin or saidar from toutching the wearer.<br />(When Mat was killed by lightening, Rahvin didn`t bother to channel EACH lightning separately, just the storm clouds)<br />As the gholam is in fact the same type of ter`angreal inpersonated (it melts flows) they repell eachother much in the fashion of magnets.<br /><br />It can`t be damaged by flows, but it`s one of Aginors creations, and of course made by the power.<br /><br />So you have a thing that makes weaves unravel, and a powerwrought creature, I wonder what would happen to the creature if they toutched, eh?<br /><br />Quite obviousely the Gholam didn`t fancy the results<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-14 16:30:42
subject: <b>The gholam was made by the One Power.</b>
body:
But we don't know that it was made <i>of</i> the One Power.  For certain, it can't be made completely of the One Power, else it wouldn't be visible to nonchannelers.  And if it lacks one attribute of the One Power, then why shouldn't it lack most of its attributes?<br /><br />But more than that &quot;powerwrought&quot; in the way RJ uses it, means only wrought <i>by</i> power, not <i>of</i> power, I believe, much like firewrought means wrought <i>by</i> fire, not <i>of</i> fire.<br /><br />While the gholam may be made partially of the One Power, we have no more reason to believe that than we have to believe that the medallion was made partially of the One Power.  And if the two were <i>both</i> made partially of the One Power, then why didn't they unweave <i>each other</i> (at least to the point where neither of their weaves worked)?<br /><br />Therefore, Occam's razor suggests that they were <i>both</i> made <i>by</i> the Power, not <i>of</i> it.<br /><br />OTOH, it's never been proven that Occam's razor is right more often that it is wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 06:24:02
subject: <b>True Power?</b>
body:
Couldn't the medallion and the Gholam be made from the True Power.<br /><br />This would give Rand and others to find out about its existence as it seems only the Forsaken know about it.


created: 2001-10-15 14:18:08
subject: <b>Silverware!</b>
body:
I can see it now.  Mat chasing after the Gholam with some silverware he stole because he forgot to put on the medalion!  In other words, i completly disagree with this theory.


created: 2001-10-15 16:58:31
subject: <b>Possible,</b>
body:
It may be that RJ is having the medallion used against the gholam first to throw us off the fact that it (the gholam) has a weakness to silver. <br /><br />   Of course it may just be that the medallions properties were undoing the use of the power that created the gholam. If the medallion were put against a power wrought blade for a good while then that blade probably would soon be a normal blade.<br /><br />   It's not for certain if the medallion uses the power or not. Considering that it came from the Eelfinn it's plausible that they have their own magic. That would account for why the gholam doesn't cancel the medallion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 18:43:07
subject: <b>Silver does not stop the One Power by itself</b>
body:
Remember the a'dam?  They're made of silver, but Nynaeve could still channel at it and pop it open.  The silver didn't absorb her flows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-16 01:31:41
subject: <b>remember what was said</b>
body:
Remember that the chosen talked about how the gholem even frightened them and since it did Aginor left an &quot;out&quot; clause in it's making, something to protect them.  Now if weaves can't hit it then that would leave two choices. <br />1. All the chosen had things like Mat's medallion, or<br />2. Silver was a defense against it.<br /><br />The other possibility of course is that balefire can destroy it. I think that silver is a good guess though, very subtle yet consistant with the type of themes that RJ likes to weave into his story lines.


created: 2001-10-16 19:20:08
subject: <b>Power constructs</b>
body:
One of the above said that if the gholem was made by saidar and saidin that it couldn't be seen by non-channelers, but look at chora trees, and the nym, both are power constructs, living things created by the power, and you can obviously see them.<br /><br />I believe that the gholem are power constructs and Mat's amulet hurts the things cause Theey're made of the power, (weave melting ect).<br /><br />I believe that if Mat swung it at the greenman, it'd probably hurt him too.  But then again, it could be two things of the pwer reacting strangely when they touch.  Hense the ring ter'angreal and the accepted test arches.<br /><br />I think silver would be better for killing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Perrin than the gholem.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-17 03:39:13
subject: <b>Nice thinking Kidblondeel</b>
body:
I think you're partially right.<br /><br />When we read about the TAR-ring and the accepted-ter'angreal, we also learned that two ter'angreals that does the same thing can't be used together, or even too close to one another.<br /><br />I think the gholam is a living ter'angreal, much like the fades. <br />(13 dreadlords<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> channeling through 13 fades<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> turns a channeler to the DO, remember?)<br /><br />That would explain why the gholam was hurt.<br />It also would explain why the medallion wasn't damaged.<br />The gholam was of a softer material than the medallion, therefor the gholam was damaged instead of the medallion.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 21:40:28
subject: <b>on Shai'tan's post . . .</b>
body:
He said that Mat's Medallion blocks saidin as well as saidar but when have we seen such evidence of this?  Until we see a male channeler fail at trying to affect Mat with the power, I'm more than willing to bet that it doesn't stop men from channeling at him.  Also, he may have said he wanted something to help him remain unaffected by the power, but I am willing to bet (don't have my books with me) that he said Aes Sedai or women who channel or some such thing, and therefore the Aelfinn gave him what he asked for, something to stop saidar, not saidin.  That's my two cents.<br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-18 04:27:03
subject: <b>and another thing</b>
body:
I must agree that I find it very unlikely that in all the time that there were gholams killin' thangs (and Birgitte seems to remember them as though they were widely used in the past) that no one ever figured out that a silver spork off the dining room table could injure it.  It is much more likely that, since gholams are clearly kept alive by the One Power (since they are magical constructs), that something that interferes with magic (like a Stedding or Mat's ter'angreal) would be able to damage it.<br /><br />Also, I agree with nimvin.  Until we see someone channel saidin at Mat and have it fizzle, I am willing to accept that it only works against saidar.


created: 2001-10-20 02:42:54
subject: <b>thinking on the medallion itself</b>
body:
Here are some leads about the medallion that could help define the nature of it's &quot;power&quot;:<br /><br />what if the medallion did not simply melt weaves but defended against anything beyond &quot;natural&quot; or &quot;normal&quot; human abilities, channeling would be superhuman, a Gholam while humanoid is way over human. An ogier is natural so it has an effect on the wearer a powermade sword would affect him also since metal by which ever way extracted of forged is still metal so the power would have no affect but a blade is still a blade.<br /><br />An other possibility is that the medalion is a spinoff of cuendillar, the metal absorb any force against it and transform it in additional strenght, the spinoff would do a similar thing with power related actions and turn it in a harmless force.


created: 2001-10-20 19:40:38
subject: <b>Of Sporks and Skill</b>
body:
It's one thing to go after a gholam with a spork. It's quite another to survive the attack.<br /><br />The gholam was incredibly quick, incredibly powerful. It simply shredded a skilled group of warriors -- including Warders, if I remember correctly. Matt is considered almost inhumanely quick, and he can barely stay alive against it.  <br /><br />Even if silver IS a vulnerability, having it's one thing, being able to use it is quite something else.<br /><br />Look at the Myrrdahl (sp); They can be slain by normal weapons, even with one blow...it's just being able to stay alive against them long enough to get that shot in. <br /><br />It'd be a lot tougher against a Gholam then it would a Fade.  The silver thing MAY hold water, and Birgitte and her bow would be a logical counter -- especially considering that sooner or later the Gholam will want to kill Elayne (Daved or no Daved) and Birgitte is her natural guardian.


created: 2001-10-20 22:06:53
subject: <b>Concerning Nimvin's response</b>
body:
It was either in CoS or PoD when Mat was in Salidar that he felt the medallion go cold. When he looked up the only person looking at him was Halima and we all know that she uses the male half of the True Source, therefore we know that the medallion blocks both saidar and saidin.<br /><br />Krane


created: 2001-10-26 16:29:32
subject: <b>Gateway vs. Gholam</b>
body:
Two thoughts: One, maybe opening a gsteway to the edge of Far Madding's sheild and driving a Gholam through would force it to come in contact with more &quot;anti-Power&quot; and kill it.  Or opening a gate way above the city and dropping the Gholam ino it.  Two, what would happen if a gateway closed on a Gholam?  Mat has passed through gateways without the medallion disrupting the flows, (and the Forsaken would have needed some way to get the thing from one place to another; Gholam predate the Ways) so a Gholam could probably chase someone through, and then they slam it shut on him.  Would it explode? Fizzle out? Or cut him in half?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 19:45:02
subject: <b>Isn't it obvious?</b>
body:
The medallion functions so well against the gholam for a couple of reasons.  For one, they both resist the one power, and that is a very rare quality so far at least.  Remember cuellandor does not exactly resist the one power, it is just able to absorb any force directed against it.  Anyway, since they both resist, the meeting of these two things would be such a powerful opposite that something would have to give, and it was the organic living thing that took the pain.  If the medallion was on the gholam long enough, it would probably kill him.


created: 2002-01-13 00:35:51
subject: <b>About what SirKrane said</b>
body:
Just because our old friend Aran'gar was the only person looking at him doesn't mean that she was the only one there who could have been channeling.  The medallion makes weaves break apart, it did absolutely nothing when Rahvin fried him.  And don't use the &quot;he wasn't actively directing the bolts&quot; thing...bolts of lightning in a clear cloudless sky are created with fire and air, they are active weaves.<br /><br />And the book STATES the medallion doesn't work against Saidin.  &quot;Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man's channeling&quot;<br /><br />So, in closing, the medallion disrupts Saidar, NOT Saidin...leaving Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> quite suseptable to the wilder half of the Power<br /><br />-HG<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 08:47:17
subject: <b>The quote about saidin</b>
body:
That was merely Rand's thoughts on Mat's death.<br /><br />As for Halima/Aran'gar, after someone channels at Mat, he turns to see her shocked, then she storms off. What else could she possibly be shocked about than the fact that her weave didn't work. If an Aes Sedai had directed the weave, more than one Aes Sedai would have been shocked by the outcome because remember they can all see each other's work with the One Power.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-29 21:50:40
subject: <b>Silver?</b>
body:
Didn't it say that the Forsaken only made 6, because even they were afraid of the gholam?  If they could be killed by some silver, why would they be afraid?  It does seem to be too easy.  Just make sure you never bet all your silver at once.<br /><br />I like the theory, though.  Really interesting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-26 02:11:50
subject: <b>On Cannoli's thought</b>
body:
Hmmm... and if it fizzles out, what would happen then?  Would he be stuck midair in two places, unable to move?  Not cut in half, really, but...divided.  (Did that make sense?)  Or would it just cease to exist?  Would the person really have Traveled whom it may have chased through?  Hmmm... And if it explodes, what happens on the original side?  Didn't we only ever see the explosion on Elayne and Aviendha's side of the gateway when she lost the weaves?  What happened on the other half?<br /><br />Questions, questions, thoughts, thoughts, comprehension?  What's that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 11:17:31
subject: <b>about the explosion</b>
body:
directly after the Big-Bang chapter there was a PoV with a seachan morat'raken. He was trown in the air by a big explosion and saw the marks of it.<br /><br />So the explosion happens on both sides.<br /><br />About the silver thing i can only say hmm...<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> uurgh the crazy viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-07 17:34:36
subject: <b>Gholams and Gateways</b>
body:
What's-his-name's post about dropping a Gholam into Far Madding:<br /><br />Here's an interesting thought...  what if one opened a horizontal gateway to the sky over Far Madding right under a Gholam's feet?  RJ said in an interview that horizontal gateways were possible.<br /><br />HMMMMMMmmmmm.......


created: 2002-06-13 10:55:14
subject: <b>a simple answer</b>
body:
i think i know why the medalion hurts the gholam without being &quot;hurt&quot; itself<br /><br />it is this simple. which is harder flesh or silver?<br /><br />silver of course meaning it would be more rugged while the poor flesh would give way easily. (the gholam is made of something akin to flesh since a knife fairly easily punctures it)<br /><br />make a silver bat and smack it against someone's head which one will be smarting more? my bet is the person


created: 2002-06-27 18:59:15
subject: <b>Listen people...</b>
body:
I've said this before somewhere else, RJ has said that lightning, even when woven directly, is much like a thrown rock, as in it is an effect of the weave, not the weave itself.  He has said that Mat's medallion will not stop Saidar lightning either. Hmmph!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 16:15:19
subject: <b>Mat's phrasing of the request</b>
body:
I BELIEVE that he asked for freedom from Aes Sedai, but remember:  until a few thousand years ago, women AND men could be Aes Sedai.  The Finn people aren't exactly up on current events (they still speak the Old Tongue; that's SOOO 1000 years ago!), so they probably don't realize that men can't be Aes Sedai anymore.


created: 2002-09-04 03:31:13
subject: <b>Could it be a well???</b>
body:
Here's an idea...<br />What if Mat medaillon works somehow like a well, just like the one Cadsuane and Nynaeve possessed? By now, because of his pleasant ride with aes sedai, Mat medaillon should be somewhat full of saidar... <br />The main difference between the medaillon and a normal well could be that you cant draw the OP from it and it then becomes a 'weapon' full of unweaved power.  <br /><br />Now, if we suppose that the gholam is a man, at least he seems to be, he should or could be made with or by saidin, and that to control it you need you need saidin. <br />I think that of the 6 gholam, 3 looks likes 'men' and 3 looks like 'women'. So 'men gholam' would hunt women aes sedai and vice versa. I dont think we've seen a man chanelled at the gholam  yet, so this might be true...or not.   <br /><br />As for why the gholam can be hurt by the medaillon, It might be because weaves of saidar cant touch him but an object filled with it can... <br /><br />There is a lot of speculation in this and I dont believe half of it is true, but I dont believe half of it  is false either. Make what you wish of all that and remember that only fools takes everithing for granted <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />


created: 2002-09-29 12:00:21
subject: <b>Not silver...</b>
body:
I don't think the medallion is actual silver. It probably was silver, until made ter'angral. Like the ring wich makes it possible to enter tel'aran'rhiod: It was stone, but it being made ter'angreal made it something else.<br />So maybe, when Elayne gets the hang of making ter'angreal, she'll make a weapon of the same kind of metal, and it would be used to kill the gholam.


created: 2002-09-29 14:15:17
subject: <b>Don't think it's silver...</b>
body:
I don't think Mat's medallion is silver. It probably was silver, until it was made ter'angreal, now it is something else. Like the ring used to access tel'aran'rhiod, it was rock, but isn't now. Maybe Elayne, when she gets the hang of making ter'angreal, will make a weapon of some kind, and it will help kill the gholam.


created: 2002-10-17 13:42:29
subject: <b>DrgnBrn on the right track....</b>
body:
Drgnbrn makes a very good point...Halima is actually channeling the male half of the source, and why else would she have been shocked. Certainly not at Mat for any other reason, she's just a big a fluzzy(sp) as Mat is in most respects. So the medallion blocks both sides of the power, now as for the question of why it hurts the gholam...Well, take your pick at the theories presented. I believe that RJ has a plan for our gholam and I'm content to wait and find out.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-28 22:57:47
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
Perhaps RJ just wanted to introduce something that would make a previously unkillable shadowspawn at least hurt-able, at most, killable.<br /><br />He doesn't seem like the type to go for invinciblity in any way shape or form, everyone has a weak point, even if it takes a while to discover.<br /><br />Just some thoughts - I'm new to posting, but not to the site, so I'm not quite sure how off I could be...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Aolani<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Everybody's seen the things they've seen<br />We all have to live with what we've been&quot;  <br />~-~ Bruce Cockburn, Justice<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-02 22:36:02
subject: <b>err...</b>
body:
It could be a weave, since the stasis box wouldnt require someone to hold it, because it does what its name suggets, makes a stasis. Once in the box, time is gone. It acts like it was only in there for how long it takes to come out.<br /><br />Also for the fox med. hanging out of mats shirt, and it didnt save him, it didnt save him BECAUSE it was hanging out of his shirt, therefor not touching him. It doesnt work if its not touching him.


created: 2008-07-19 01:10:26
subject: <b>Some people said stupid stuff and I'm mad about it!</b>
body:
1.  Why it COULD BE TRUE that silver harms a gholam:<br />The medallion has two significant characteristics.<br />-It's made of silver (not cuendillar)<br />-It protects the wearer against the One Power (see #2 below)<br />One of these things hurts gholam.<br />Someone said &quot;Silver does not stop the One Power by itself.&quot;  You're RIGHT!  And yet so WRONG!  Silver might well be the property that hurts the gholam.  The OTHER characteristic of the medallion is the thing that melts flows.  Check out this chart:<br />Characteristic: . . Function:<br />Made of silver --&gt; Hurts gholam<br />Flowmelting ----&gt; Melts flows<br /><br />But we'll find out later when the gholam gets killed.<br /><br />2.  The medallion DOES protect its wearer against the DIRECT effects of the One Power - Saidin AND Saidar!  BOTH!<br />&quot;But lightning hurt Mat.&quot;<br />Lightning does not count as a direct effect.  This is mentioned elsewhere on this site.  That is how Mat was harmed by lightning while wearing the medallion.  I suppose the Power creates a difference in electric charge above and below the target, and lightning happens on its own due to mundane physics, not the Power.<br /><br /><br />P.S.: Please notice I didn't say &quot;stupid people said...&quot; but &quot;people said stupid stuff.&quot;<br /><br />http://xkcd.com/386/


created: 2001-10-15 15:10:57
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I think that pretty well sums it up. When you look at it this way, it seems the 'dark side' doesn't have a chance. However, I think that that would be boring and that fate can be altered by the dark one.


created: 2001-10-15 17:13:27
subject: <b>Me likes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Very nice theory. I don't have nothin else to add, just wanted to say that I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 12:45:41
subject: <b>Yeah, but...</b>
body:
See, the Hindu mythology states that there are seven ages, starting from creation down to destruction of the world. The chronology is cyclical, with a specific quality to each age. After destruction, the entire cycle reruns. Work that in with the rest of your theory, 'cos otherwise it's just too simple, and we all knew that anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 18:30:24
subject: <b>Very nice theory</b>
body:
I very much enjoyed reading your theory and agree with it.  I think the idea that the wheel weaves events and not causes is a very good one.  Keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Yes Forsaken,&quot; Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep-winter ice. &quot;Past time!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Heroes are the people who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />     -Silverlight<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 01:06:48
subject: <b>I agree mostly.</b>
body:
The only point I don't see is about Foretelling. We know that sometimes Foretelling leads to cause. Gitara Morosou (not sure on spelling) told Tigraine to become a maiden of the spear, because of a Foretelling (unless I am mistaken) I am sure GM was the reason Tigraine went to the waste. In this case and who knows how many others Fortellings were the cause.


created: 2001-10-13 03:43:17
subject: <b>No I dont think so</b>
body:
I dont thing you're right...<br /><br /> If i had my way, Moiraine would never come bac<br /><br /> She stinks as an Aes Sedai<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> PS. Egwene sucks too


created: 2001-10-13 10:30:43
subject: <b>I disagree.</b>
body:
I don't think it's at all possible for Moiraine to actually release the bond completely although that comment very well could mean she covered the bond up as much as possible.<br /><br />I don't remember exactly how it happened, but I'm pretty sure Lan seemed to feel the exact moment when the bond snapped to Moiraine and was activated to Myrelle, and that was quite a bit of time AFTER this particular Moiraine thinking. <br /><br />I'd still say we can't say for sure whether Moiraine died, was stilled, or the bond simply snapped because of the broken pathway to the finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 11:36:51
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
Yeah, I think Moiraine was already through the doorway when the bond was broken. I remember that Rand catches Lan in flows of air to stop him going after her and then he suddenly sags and says something liked &quot;She's gone. I can't feel her.&quot;


created: 2001-10-13 15:23:28
subject: <b>One other thing supporting this</b>
body:
Even though I don't actually buy, this, I have one thing to say about that Moirainen POV... Shouldn't she have felt, through the bond, Lan's condition? At least severe wounds? Compare to TSR where Alanna tells about her Warders death, how she felt every arrow, how she felt him die.<br /><br />Actually I believe she's held by the Aelfinn and Eelfin, and the bond snapped due to the destruction of the gateway between the worlds. And yes, I hope and believe she will be back. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 19:55:52
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
Lan's bond was &quot;snapped&quot; as he says himself while explaining to nynaeve in &quot;A Crown of Swords&quot;. He says &quot;there are certain changes in a warder when his bond to his aes sedai is snapped&quot; or something of the like. And someone, I think it was Elyas telling Perrin, said that an aes sedai would let a warder go if he really wanted to. most would.. and that implies that there are no effects to simply being released from the bond. So as Lan said(I think it was him) when a warders aes sedai dies it's like he consumes his death, that's why they get this lousy longing for death themselves. But I don't think Moiraine died either, I think the bond snapped when the gateway melted. or shortly after. maybe the gateway sort of dwindled instead of being gone in a flash and that's why it took some time before he said she was gone. AND OF COURSE SHE'LL COME BACK!! Though I don't know where she'll fit...


created: 2001-10-13 21:23:27
subject: <b>Thanks Lews Therin i hate Egwene too. and Cadsuane.</b>
body:
Man is Egwene becoming a real B#*%@ or what.  &quot;Well if Rand thinks we'll swear fealty to him he's mad&quot; Get a job you wussy aes sedai. I remember when i used to like her.<br />One thing i still don't understand is everybody's reluctance to swear fealty to Rand.  He's the Dragon Freakin' Reborn and everybody treats him as a child.  From Elayne being mad the he held Carhein and Andor for her (which he did both... saved everyones aces there) to Cadsuane just being a complete B#$%@ whenever she talks to him.  Everybody's got to kneel down and kiss his ace as far as i'm concerned, he's going to save the world.  All this posturing just gets old.  Let's just crown him Tamyrlin again and let them fight amongst themselves.<br /><br />Lews Therin had nads, to do what he wanted, and yes it resulted in saidin being tainted, but humanity survived.  I always get the feeling that people like Cadsuane were reincarnated Latra Posae (or something like that) that made it so Lews Therin couldn't seal the bore correctly with female channlers.  I think that CADSUANE is the one who needs a humility lesson.  She's been so full of herself for 300+ years that a battle w/ one of the forsaken one on one would teach her who's the baddest b*$#@ in town.<br /><br />Torin the Chosen<br /><br />ps. sorry for the &quot;b&quot; word so much up there, but that's simply the best word to describe them.


created: 2001-10-13 21:30:46
subject: <b>I completely agree with Torin</b>
body:
As a matter of fact, I don't think I could have put it in better words myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-14 08:09:22
subject: <b>I almost agree</b>
body:
Egwene is no doubt going to be a strong Amyrlin, but light she's annoying! The most annoying thing is the way she expects Rand to come to the Aes Sedai to ask for help...as if that's ever going to happen. The Aes Sedai should have to go to Rand, the stronger party. So the Aes Sedai can link, oh great. Overall the Asha'man are still stronger, you're going to run out of Aes Sedai to link and shield Asha'man eventually. Good job I don't like Gawyn either, they can have each other.<br /><br />Cadsuane however...I used to hate her. However, when I learned that she had almost uncovered the Black Ajah, she gained a lot more of my respect. It's the same with Verin, I did hate her but I believe the Black Ajah hunter theory, so now I like her.<br /><br />I know a lot of the female characters are needed to keep Rand down to earth, but Elayne, Nynaeve, Min, Aviendha, Moiraine (when she returns) and Cadsuane can do that...kill Egwene off!


created: 2001-10-15 06:33:02
subject: <b>Bond Passing</b>
body:
In tGH, Moiraine talks about passing on Lan's bond before she dies.<br /><br />Egwene is the most irritating charachter in the series - yes, even more so than Elayne.


created: 2001-10-15 09:27:03
subject: <b>Three in a boat, you are correct how could i forget Faile!</b>
body:
Absolutely, Faile is my least favorite character of them all.  Because she didn't have anything like Min's viewings or channeling, Robert Jordan decided to make her more abnoxious than anyone so that we'd notice her.  I hope she dies in the Aiel camp and that Berelain takes Perrin, she's one hot lady.  (I'm aware that Berelain will probably end up w/ Galad but one can dream that Robert Jordan would permanently kill a semi-main character.  I swear reading these books is like playing monopoly w/ somebody who doesn't want to trade any properties because he's not sure what he wants to do.  Compare Jordan to other authors who aren't afraid to let main characters die, Fiest, Tolkien, Brooks, Eddings.  Sometimes people dying makes us love them even more.)<br /><br />But to reiterate, Faile can die, w/ Cadsuane and Egwene, (and Elayne can actually *gasp* be greatful to Rand.)<br /><br />Torin the Chosen<br />I will prove that I lived before I die.


created: 2001-10-15 13:49:19
subject: <b>Wasn't it great...</b>
body:
...when Rand shielded Elayne and Egwene with ease in Tear then did a load of channeling at the same time? Oh man, that was so funny, especially as Egwene realised that neither her or Elayne could shield Rand alone, let alone do all that other stuff. She still managed to annoy me though when she thought perhaps Nynaeve could shield Rand...I mean, come on, the difference between the two is vast. That freed damane could probably shield him though.<br /><br />I just thought of an even better time. It was when Egwene went to Rand and told him to be courteous to the Tower Aes Sedai (really wanting him to do the opposite) and he said he would, then didn't and let her know he saw right through what she was doing right away. I hate how she thinks she's more intelligent than Rand, he's easily as smart.<br /><br />You know, I'd just love it if Egwene got angry at Rand for something (Aes Sedai swearing fealty for example) and because he won't listen to her she gets really mad and attacks him with the One Power, thus pushing Rand over the edge...she'd be so humiliated. I don't think we'll ever actually see that happen, Jordan has already demonstrated Rand's dominance in strength, he doesn't need to do it again. What'd be great would be if Rand goes mad and starts lashing out every so often against his friends, there's at least a chance of that.<br /><br />I agree that Jordan should kill off one or two main characters (Egwene, Faile, Moiraine, Elayne, Min, Aviendha, Lan, Nynaeve, Suian...), but I think it's too soon for us to say he is afraid of doing it...I'd me amazed and disappointed if all these characters survive the last battle. I mean, it'd just be far too over the top on the ta'veren front (of course I fall in with the group who believe Rand will somehow survive the last battle).


created: 2001-10-15 14:00:59
subject: <b>I totall agree!</b>
body:
i can't believe i'm actually agreeing with some of you guys out there.  but anyone that says Egwene is a terd has got my vote!  she has to be the most annoying WOT character out there.  and torin, you are right about everyone kneeling down and kissing Rand's butt!  it's soo frustrating that about every female character has to act like Rand is some baby who needs to be taken care of and potty trained.  it was HE that went after Callandor when Moraine didn't think he was ready.  and how did that turn out?  Ishamael and Callandor in Rand's pocket (with Belal dead at Moraine's hand--a little sop for the woman?).  it was HE who figured out he was the Caracarn.  and how important was that?  he only got the Instant Aiel Army out of the bargain.  and as for Elayne, how freaking much of a little girl does she have to pretend to be?  not even thanking Rand for holding on to Camelyn and Cairhinien (sp.) for her.  i mean, how else would she be able to just waltz in and demand for the succession of the lion throne to begin?  Cadsuane has to rank as the biggest B---- in the books, though her role at the end of WH did soften her up to me a little.  having said all of this, i believe RJ said (in a chat around 96 or 97) that he purposefully made his women intolerable so that the readers would REALLY like the male characters.  well, if you're like me, i believe he has succeeded to some hell of an Nth degree!


created: 2001-10-15 15:21:02
subject: <b>A thought ABOUT THE THEORY</b>
body:
Just a thought about the theory, I think that the woman you pass the bond to has to be there. That's why Nynaeve doesn't have Lan's bond.


created: 2001-10-15 16:26:15
subject: <b>two remarks...</b>
body:
Firstly, on the direct comment on the theory: Even if severed, Moiraine will not necessarily be weaker after her return. Flinn healed the AS severed by Rand completely!<br />Secondly, on Three in a boat: what&#180;s wrong with the BA?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 16:53:23
subject: <b>What's right about them?</b>
body:
What is wrong with the BA? The main thing is that of the ones we've seen so far, not one of them has an ounce of normal Aes Sedai intelligence. If they were truly intelligent and powerful, I'd respect them more, like them even. But they're so stupid. The only one who as come close to gaining my respect is Alviarin, but she's only doing well because she's being faced with a weak Amyrlin. Let's face it, she wouldn't stand a hope against Suian or Egwene (well it's true, I might hate her but I can recognise her intelligence).<br /><br />Incidentally, I'll just point out that annoying characters are needed. I just want Egwene to, you know, every so often admit Rand is more intelligent or something like that. Like Nynaeve, she's annoying quite often, but every so often she has to admit (however grudgingly) that someone else was right. I just think it's a pity that Rand can't reveal how he out-tricked both Lanfear and Asmodeon...that'd be good.


created: 2001-10-15 19:11:16
subject: <b>He may yet</b>
body:
Rand may yet tell about Asmodean. Elayne could let it slip about Moghedian and be ashamed, and he will feel inclined to tell her about his conquests as well.


created: 2001-10-16 01:51:41
subject: <b>men and women</b>
body:
I think that there is an even deeper reason that men and women don't get along or treat each other as equals. Going back to the age of legends, as explained in the wheel of time Guide, there were two factions for ending the war. Since the men and the women couldn't agree the plans failed and the world was broken.  I think that this time reflects that time, all the women suck ass, they treat every man as some kind of ignorant fool. This really pisses me off but I think it will become more evident that the animosity created by the women and there arogance will need to be resolved in order for the last battle to be successful. THat's why Egwene sucks so hard. She will inevitably piss Rand off trying to tell him what to do and then things will go horribly wrong and only by working together as equals will the situation be resolved. <br />PS. RJ could still kill off Faile and I wouldn't lose any sleep. Plus, I hate seeing the Ashaman who are bonded to Aes Sedai acting like supplicants. screw that! Even Cadsuane has got to learn that Rand deserves respect too. She seems to think that he has to mind her like his mother! What a crock, he's the man. He does need help but that doesn't mean he must be treated as a child. I think until all the chicks figure that out nothing good will come of the LB.


created: 2001-10-16 13:07:03
subject: <b>problem solved</b>
body:
The only way for the world to be saved this time is for the men and the women to work together, but since all the women are insufferable pricks, there's only way for them to be made to work together: all of the have to swear fealty to Rand. I mean, look what happend at the end of WH. Most of the Aes Sedai there were sworn to Rand, and they kicked some major Forsaken butt. Egwene needs Gawyn to come have his way with her and she'll be a lot better (remember Nynaeve? The moment her and Lan did the big nasty, she became pretty decent).


created: 2001-10-16 15:45:42
subject: <b>My response</b>
body:
I dont know if anybody brought this up, but don't two channel-able women need to be very close to each other if they want to pass the bond to each other? If this wasn't true, I think Myrelle would have passed Lan's bond to Nynaeve already, and in that scene in the Fire of Heavens, I think Myrelle was very far away. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-16 17:19:22
subject: <b>Are you all nuts?</b>
body:
The reason Cadsuane acts the way she does, is because of the advice Sorilea gave her.  If you want to interest him, try to hide what your doing, be indeferent (sp?).  Use his arrogance against his logic.<br />And why do you think Egwene has an easier life than Rand?  Because she already had a faction built, and only needed to take it's lead?  Well, the same applies for Rand, the Prophecies paved his way.  If the Aiel didn't have the Prophecy of Rhuidean would have Rand been able to become their leader?   And Aviendha is great too, her POVs are the funniest in the books.  Elayne is a nice character, but she defenitly gets too much book space.  <br />Personnaly I love Alviarin, she has a mean streak, but she definetly knows what she's about.  It is my bet she will be one of those evil doers that will ESCAPE justice in THE END.<br />Maybe Faile and Berelain will both die, so Perrin will end up with Alliandre, perhaps he goes for the submissive type?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 08:18:56
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
I mean, this is just, like, duh. But I'm just jealous because you found it and I gotta say that this is the only plausible link between Moiraine's &quot;death&quot; and her future with a certain gleeman....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 21:43:10
subject: <b>Annoyances</b>
body:
Egwene, Elayne, and Avienda are all annoying.  And the same goes double for every single Aes Sedai except Moiraine and Cadsuane.  Both of 'em have got their noses so high in the air that someday they'll fall over backwards, but hey, they know what they've got to do and they are willing to take risks to do it.  I mean, Moiraine was willing to use balefire despite all the warnings and bans against it, and Cadsuane snuck those Power-wells into that one city, whatever its name was.  The ladies have guts!  And power.  I like power, which is one big reason that I like Rand so much.<br />I'm also seriously annoyed by all the people getting in Rand's way.  He's the Dragon Reborn, and he's the most powerful man alive (he could take any Forsaken one on one with his hands tied behind his back).  For crying out loud, let him do his job!<br />However, I have to say that I rather like Faile (despite my affection for the Faile-is-a-Darkfriend idea), and I think that all the people who jump on every possible chance to beat down their least favorite characters need to cool down.  No need to flame women in general, which is what some of it ammounts to.  And for crying out loud, Faile has no relevance to this theory at all!  Please, people, let's stick a little closer to the subject!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 18:11:17
subject: <b>Betrayal</b>
body:
No reason to think Moirane should be dead or stilled...after all, Lanfear wasn't.  Also, it's equally likely that they went into the realm of the snake-things (from the prophecies), who certainly had the capability of blocking off any links, controlling powers, etc.<br /><br />So....given that Lanfear is back, that means that Shaitan has either influence or power wherever they went, and my response to your theory is...<br /><br />she'll be back, with power -- and likely all of it...<br /><br />...and she'll be the Dark One's Tool. <br /><br />After all, a great betrayal of Rand is spoken about, and there are VERY few people Rand trusts, in retrospect, more than Moirane.  He had come to the realization of all she did for him, and her sacrifice for his sake was spectacular...I've been of the opinion that he holds her in some grudging reverence -- the perfect set up for betrayal<br /><br />As for Egwene and the most annoying, Yes, I get fully irritated with her and the others who prattle on about Rand bowing to the White Tower, which has established beyond doubt in recent years that it is anything but stable, safe and secure. <br /><br />But Nynave is hands-down the most annoying character. She doesn't have a single redeeming quality about her. Egwene at least has had her moments, has had a personality. Nynave is just a harridan -- and everyone excuses it. &quot;Oh, Nynave, you're such a jerk, but we love you anyway,&quot; or &quot;Oh, Nynave, you really are a butt-muncher, but we still think you're keen!&quot;   She never apologizes -- ever. <br />


created: 2001-10-22 16:52:21
subject: <b>Rand is a whiner</b>
body:
.. and therefore he needs those 'annoying&quot; women to keep him down to earth. The women think too highly of themselves and therefore they need Rand c.s. Howsaboutthat?<br /><br />It is said in the books that what Moiraine did with passing the bond to Myrelle wasn't proper (almost forbidden). The warder is supposed to give his agreement. Myrelle has accepted the bond but thinks she is the one to 'cure' Lan from the craziness of feeling his AS die (or the bond being broken), so she didn't pass the bond from her to Accepted Nyneave. Now that Lan and Nyneave are married and she is a full AS, they can ask Myrelle to pass the bond when they meet again...<br /><br />As for Moiraine being dead: I don't think so.<br />Min had a viewing that Rand neaded a woman that was dead, and since Min is never wrong, it has got to be Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> ...<br />


created: 2001-12-04 18:56:05
subject: <b>False</b>
body:
Moraine is not dead but I guess she is stilled, like Lanfear was.  Somewhere in WH one of the male forsaken said he thought Cydane was Lanfear reborn, until he heard she was not near as strong.  But it is Lanfear, we know that from POVs and stuff, so therefore she must have been stilled but since the DO can give the dead new bodies I am sure he can cure stilling.<br /> The women are no way as annoying as u all make out. I think all u fellas just can't handle strong women, but I would have to agree that RJ does tend to make them very bitchy on occasion,which isn't really neccesary.  But Egwene needs a talking to alright.  Nyneave just acts so uptight coz she had to lose her temper to channel, people were constantly checking up on her so she was/is insecure.  Notice her mellowing now that she more sure of herself.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;To go far a drink is one thing. To be driven to it is another.&quot;<br />http://angrianan.tripod.com</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 16:17:33
subject: <b>victor in the doorway</b>
body:
I had always assumed that if Lanfear was dead (which we know from her reincarnation as Cyndane), Moiraine died with her by channeling as they went through the doorway.  My husband pointed out that perhaps Moiraine killed Lanfear once inside.  Now Moiraine is trapped in Aelfland because the doorway melted... trapped until Thom rescues her from the Tower of Ghenji, of course.


created: 2002-04-08 06:13:34
subject: <b>Stilling killing Warders....</b>
body:
Remember: Stilling an AS kills/warps/drives insane her warder. So, unless she dropped the bond RIGHT before the gate stuff going down, stilling's out of the question. Which means: She's Dead, or She's still alive, and can channel. If she's dead, she could be summoned as a hero of the horn. If she's alive, she's probibly Damane. Just my theories....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 15:56:00
subject: <b>stop complaining.</b>
body:
for all you people who think everyone should kneel to rand, shut up! if everyone did what rand wanted, there would be no story to tell! who wants to read about the 'big engine that could'?<br /><br />re: nickIQ, where did you find out that a warder who's AS was stilled was any different from one who's AS died? my impression was that they more or less had the same effect.<br /><br />man, you guys made me forget what the theory was about!<br /><br />anyway, i think it's definitely an interesting theory and has its merits.


created: 2002-04-30 00:10:26
subject: <b>Moiraine Stilled...</b>
body:
Even if she were stilled, I think we'll find that women can heal men's stilling (per Nynaeve w/ Logain) and men heal women's stilling (per the Ashaman who's name escapes me at the moment who healed the sisters in the Aiel camp that Rand had stilled).<br />Nynaeve healed Logain to his original strength, and it would seem the Ashaman healed the sisters to their original strength as well... which Nynaeve could not do with Siuan and Leane.<br />So if Moiraine were stilled, all she'd need is an Ashaman who could Heal her of it, and she'd be good to go. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 23:09:25
subject: <b>Moiraine is alive</b>
body:
In book 7, after Rand has been slashed by Fain, or perhaps before he even goes to the rebel camp, Min is looking at him, and thinks something along the lines of, &quot;She had never been wrong about a viewing before, except where a woman died who would be vital to Rand's success, he would almost surely fail without her.&quot; Not an exact translation, but read book 7 again and you'll find it. I believe that she is referring to Moiraine, so unless she really WAS wrong, then Moiraine is till alive, somewhere.


created: 2002-07-03 13:23:23
subject: <b>maybe i'm crazy...</b>
body:
Or at least making stuff up.  But I'm fairly certain that Min had a vision regarding Rand and Moraine.  It's happens in the Sun Palace, and forgive me for not knowing what book, it's been a while since I reread the series.  She sees that Rand has to have someone with him at the Final Battle, but it can't be since she's gone.  Min's never been wrong.  Lanfear came back.  I don't think Moraine is dead.


created: 2002-08-22 21:49:17
subject: <b>Aren't you all forgetting something?</b>
body:
Aren't you forgetting where she is? She's in the Land where dreams come true, well sorta. For all we know she could have asked as one of her wishes that her bond be passed, or the price could have been her bond being snapped.<br />When with the Finns, all things are possible.<br /><br />Xanatak


created: 2002-10-16 18:46:14
subject: <b>The bond was transferred</b>
body:
I agree that Moraine is neither dead nor stilled.  However, Moraine did not break the bond at the time just &quot;dulled&quot; it so Lan could not feel it as strongly.  After all Egwene ran into a few sisters who had Lan and where in the process of transferring or already had transferred the bond to one them.  It was at that time that he was sent off Nynaeve and Elayne in Ebu Dar.  <br /><br />In the Great Hunt Lanfear explains to Rand, Mat and that sniffer that unlike the world they were in other &quot;portal&quot; worlds it is time that varies and not distance.  Also the dream world of Tel'aran'rhiod time is also not constant.  Bridgette explains this before she is pulled out by Mogahedien.  I believe that the fox and snake places are somehow similar in that time does not move at the same pace as the &quot;normal world.&quot;  Therefore when Lan felt the bond &quot;break&quot; it was because Moraine moved in time.  He couldn't feel Moraine after the mirror broke because she was in a different time and wasn't there.  If the bond to Lan was not latter broken than it would come into effect as soon as Moraine comes back.<br />


created: 2002-11-27 01:23:29
subject: <b>Moraine is Alive!</b>
body:
I believe that Moraine very well might be the small damane that Tuon has in her possession.  Mylan is her name, and she is smaller than Tuon, who found her (and bought her!) on the docks of Shon Kifar.  Here's a quote: &quot;The pale little damane had been half-dead with shock and fear, refusing to eat and drink, when Tuon bought her...&quot;  It kinda sounds like Moraine, but I don't remember what color Moraine's hair is, but Mylan's is &quot;dark&quot;.  Anyway, if I was Moraine...hehe...I might have prepared my demands and been ready for the price of the Finn Snakes...maybe she'd already had some foreknowledge from the foxes earlier.  (She might have learned Mat's lesson and set the price for being released from Finnland...maybe she could retain her powers, but she'd have to be chained to an a'dam, or something.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br />Maybe this is all far-fetched, but it's strange that RJ should be guiding us through Tuon's life (What a Veil Hides, WH, pg325 hardback) and we get to see Tuon's assortment of damane she owns, and, AHH, a small little almost dead Aes Sedai that she was able to tenderly nurse back to health!  Thangs that make ya go HMMMM!  Only Time, and RJ will tell for sure!


created: 2003-02-11 00:44:56
subject: <b>YES</b>
body:
I LOVE THE THEORY! Moiraine is my all-time favorite character, so I despratly want her back. I re-read the chapter where Moiraine goes into the ter'angreal, and it makes perfect sense! It is my personal belief that the Three Oaths are holding Moiraine in Aelfinn and Eelfinn. I intend to write a theory on that.


created: 2003-10-25 13:56:39
subject: <b>Blue stone?</b>
body:
What is she up to?<br />Rand talks to her and the blue stone on her forehead catches the light.I don't think that was rays from the sun.She was doing something.<br />I think passing the bond was somehow pre-arranged.When she was no longer in the world,the bond would shift.<br />I think that she was making sure her plan was working.She's not dead,maybe stilled,but she wanted the events to take place and was using her powers to finish something.What?<br />Also,was Lanfear in on the plan, or was part of the plan to get her away from Rand?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> It's time to toss the dice.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 07:59:30
subject: <b>No. He isn't.</b>
body:
It's kind of sad that NO candidate for being Demandred seems to fit even somewhat. Demandred almost certainly has more than one Proxy, but even so, he should have been seen somewhere while giving them orders. Well, regarding Weiramon, I'll just copy my doubts of that theory, from the MB. The Gedwyn comment refers to a scene in POD when another lord overheard Weiramon.<br /><br />I have not taken the time to rally some huge offense against the Weiramon theory, but frankly, I can't see him fit the picture.<br /><br />He does not seem to hate Rand enough. Stupid and illoyal yes. Full of Hate of Rand; not really.<br /><br />Even if he might stand back when we don't watch him, he seems to take a little too much risk in battle to be the type of general Demandred wants to be.<br /><br />He is too short and has features that would need him to change his normal appearance quite a lot. It's dangerous.<br /><br />His reaction to Gedwyn is not that of a Forsaken, but rather that of a stupid Darkfriend.<br /><br />Would Demandred have a banner looking almost like the one of Lanfear (just a few stars short)? Not bloody likely!<br /><br />Frankly, he simply seems to be an incompetent arrogant Tairen b*astard of a Darkfriend, simply not getting it. Just because someone is stupid, he doesn't have to be a Forsaken. Excuse the language for this time, but Weiramon is simply the kind of person that makes foul language important. Without it, it's not possible to describe the situation properly...<br /><br />I'll take every opportunity to make some PR for my own number one Demandred candidate right now: The guy with Masema, just meeting Perrin, seems obscure enough to be Demandred (a bit of argument for that can be found on the MB somewhere...).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 09:03:16
subject: <b>Why attack Illian?</b>
body:
If Dem were Weir, why would he lead the charge on the hillforts of Illian?  This would just be doing Rand's work for him.  In addition, Dem would know that Sammy would be there throwing the Power around like it was going out of style.  Dem could not retaliate with the Power and still keep his disguise.  There is no way that Dem would put himself in that situation.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 09:41:44
subject: <b>I think it's quite possible</b>
body:
I like the theory.<br />When Weiramon attackt Illian, he was getting rid of competition.<br />and when he talked to Gedwyn, during the offensive against the seanchan, he sounded as if he was in command.<br /><br />The only thing a can say against it, is that the other lords of Tear whould have reacted if Weiramon wasn't a real lord. They would certainly not accept him as their spokesman. (and behause of Rand being present, he can't use the power to convince them)<br /><br />So, you'd still have to explain why Be'lal and Demandred were in Tear at the same time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 09:42:56
subject: <b>weiramon is too bad at generaling</b>
body:
He just throw his soldiers into the fight, he has no strategy, that can't be the Famous general demandred(unless demanadred WAS a bad general. hmmm)<br />Plus he acts to much tear lord to be a fake (hate the eliners, loves his horses (not like that<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) and so one)<br />Beside weiramon can&#8217;t be demandred because narg is<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 11:14:45
subject: <b>Actually, that Weiramon is a bad general supports the theory.</b>
body:
If you are naturally talented at something, but you don't want someone to notice, and that person knows what to look for where talent is concerned, then you are going to have to overact in order to get rid of the little things that show how good you really are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 12:01:52
subject: <b>Weiramon's battle sense</b>
body:
Weiramon attacking Illian ahead of schedule did not help Rand, it hurt him.  It led to many more men being killed than Rand had planned.  That would fall into Damandred's plan to cause more choas.<br /><br />Hoever, I still think Demandred is in the Southwest, either with the whitecloaks or the prophet.  That's the only land, other than the borderlands, where none of the forsaken have been attributed to... and there's too much chaos there for there not to be one present.  He could be Asunawa's right hand man, described briefly in a scene with Morgase.  Or he could be one of the prohepts men, but none of them are described very much.  The fact that he visited Carridan before his death suggests the Whitecloaks.


created: 2001-10-18 16:49:28
subject: <b>Whitecloak?</b>
body:
Hmmmmmm...sounds cohesive to me....but how many whitecloaks have survived the Seanchan attack on Amador? And the other thing: Would Semirhage allow action against an organisation Demandred is strongly involved in? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 22:22:50
subject: <b>Damer Flinn</b>
body:
Weiramon does have that weird ability to stay mudless in a battle.<br /><br />But:<br /><br />One of things that killed Taimendred was not recognising Flinn and not being aware that a third of the Ashaman are<br />grizzled old men. This must apply to Weiramon who went with Rand to Sth Altara and must have noticed <br />Flinn and the other old Ashaman. Weiramon is also staying in Cairhein as at the end of TPOD.<br /><br />This also would apply to Dobraindred and Basheredred.<br /><br />Sammy I think was right. Like Lanfear, Demandred moves about and uses proxy darkfriends such as Weiramon<br />to keep an eye on Rand and do his deeds.<br />


created: 2001-10-18 23:36:17
subject: <b>it's all idle specultation</b>
body:
I really just made this post to spark some talk other than Taim=Demandred. Jordan says that we should know all of the forsaken by now, only a very few people are given enough exposure to fit the bill. I think Wieramon and Asunowa are the two top dogs, but I still like Wieramon.


created: 2001-10-19 08:24:29
subject: <b>book 8 tells us that ...</b>
body:
When Rand is fighting the Seanchan one of the (evil)Asha`man is talking with Weriamon , and someone overhears him says something about not killing anyone here , check it out good clue that he was giving kinsman and Rociad etc. orders as well as Taim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> follower of The Church Of The Probable Opinions&#169; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> marked with the dreaded LVIII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> smoker of the big choo choo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> bearer of the monolith <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> died from the shock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> 4th Letter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 16:27:33
subject: <b>Regarding Weiramon's talk to Gedwyn</b>
body:
Since this conversation has now been mentioned, I decided to simply look it up and check exactly what it said. It pretty much makes fully clear that Weiramon is NOT Demandred, actually. The POV is lord Bertome, riding up on Weiramon and the Ashaman:<br /><br /><i>Absorbed in one another, Weiramon and Gedwyn did not hear him ride up on them. Gedwyn was idly playing with his reins, his features cold with contempt. The Tairen was red-faced. &quot;I don't care who you are&quot;, he was saying to the black-coated man in a cold, hard voice, spittle flying, &quot;I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of--&quot;</i><br /><br />So, what does this mean? First, Gedwyn would never anger Weiramon in this way if Gedwyn knew Weiramon was Demandred. And Demandred would have very little reason to pretend being someone else to a high-level darkfriend as Gedwyn. It seems reasonable Weiramon was to end this sentence with &quot;the Forsaken&quot; or &quot;Demandred&quot; rather than &quot;the Dragon&quot; (since we know Gedwyn is Dark, and the conversation seems secret), which would make him a Darkfriend. Possibly even the Tairen lord in the Darkfriend Social of TGH. But that Weiramon would actually BE Demandred is far from strengthened by this conversation, but the other way around. It makes the initially doubtful theory even less likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 17:16:40
subject: <b>Two sides to every coin</b>
body:
The conversation you have mentioned is valid but I think it can still work the other way. The forsaken have been keeping there locations secret from those they have doing their dirty work and if Wieramon was indeed Demandred he would not be able to reveal his identity while so many others are present. Plus, his being angry with an Ashaman and even talking harshly goes against every reaction that all other non channelers have towards these men.


created: 2001-10-19 19:12:11
subject: <b>No, Weiramon is just an idiot.</b>
body:
Yubi brings up the right conversation, however, I thing Gedewyn (sp?) was trying to talk Weiramon into something MORE rash by trying to give orders to waste more troops.<br /><br />Gedewyn (sp?) IS taking orders from one of the forsaken, either directly or via Taim (No! Taim ain't Damendred either!) <br /><br />I think at this point, Rand is just employing the &quot;tools&quot; he has, which is why Weiramon is still in command, still living in his shell and still an idiot.


created: 2001-10-19 19:15:00
subject: <b>No, Weiramon is just an idiot.</b>
body:
Yubi brings up the right conversation, however, I thing Gedewyn (sp?) was trying to talk Weiramon into something MORE rash by trying to give orders to waste more troops.<br /><br />Gedewyn (sp?) IS taking orders from one of the forsaken, either directly or via Taim (No! Taim ain't Damendred either <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) <br /><br />I think at this point, Rand is just employing the &quot;tools&quot; he has, which is why Weiramon is still in command, still living in his shell and still an idiot.


created: 2001-10-19 21:54:50
subject: <b>Tell me why</b>
body:
. . . we even think that Demandred is out and about in the world?  I've never seen any evidence to show that Demandred is away from Shayol Ghul, keeping an eye on the whole Nae'blis game.  He could probably be supervising ALL the operations that bear his mark (Taim, Weiramon, the southwest, etc.) from there, if he only makes short trips away from the DO's mountain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 00:19:49
subject: <b>this is all to stupid to believe</b>
body:
for a couple of reasons <br />1. Mannerisms he acts nothing at all like what dem would we see him smiling all the time and actually getting mad a gedwyn, You dont think that he would care what some stupid ignorant man of this age says. The haughty attitude. The unwillingness to take risk. &quot; demandred was the Gambler.&quot; All the Butt kissing.<br /><br />2 Appearence. WE argue this with the taim thing that he could not maintain the disguse or all that other B.S.<br /><br /> I personally think Taim is DEm and when you rule out the obvious then you are left fighting over stupid friviless things that dont mean a thing in the end. Well thats my two cents.<br />              The CHICK<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 07:46:07
subject: <b>To Stranger in the Shadows</b>
body:
Generally I doubt there is any good place to be around Shayol Ghul, and Demandred's POV:s when visiting the DO suggests nothing of that kind either.<br /><br />Furthermore, it's is said by another Forsaken (Graendal I believe) that Demandred has adjusted well to the present-day fashion, or so, when he appears in Cairhien cloaths at some Forsaken meeting.<br /><br />Demandred says in a POV during a Forsaken meeting that &quot;to think where the DO has placed us three&quot; or something to that effect. The general way it's said indicates that Demandred, whatever proxies he use, has some sort of base where he is placed.<br /><br />Moridin has seemed to be the &quot;leader from Shayol Ghul&quot; or what you wish to call it, all from the beginning. Demandred won't be needed there too, but rather as an in-country general.<br /><br />In general, Demandred in Randland makes more sense than Demandred in Shayol Ghul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 16:35:20
subject: <b>To Llaydwhonn Gaidin</b>
body:
In response to your question as to why Semirhage/Anath would let the White cloaks be attacked if Demandred were hiding out with them, it makes perfect sense. The Children of the light are dedicated to fighting the shadow. Their dislike of Aes Sedai aside, they could end up being a big threat to the dark ones forces at TG.<br /><br />   So it would be a good idea for the Forsaken to take them out. Starting by removing their very competent leader and having a lesser man step into his shoes is a good beginning. Having them get decimated by the Seanchan is a nice follow up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 08:09:57
subject: <b>&quot;sp&quot; means spelling...</b>
body:
Instead of actually checking up the spelling of something, some just indicate that it might be wrong.<br /><br />And it's really Gedwyn (not Gedewyn).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 07:16:12
subject: <b>Demandred is not Weiramon</b>
body:
If you look to the last chapters in WH you have Demandred sculking about the hilltop and i think he says that he was Dashiva, that or it is said before the hilltop but still in the end of the book. <br /><br />Anyway Demendred was Dashiva and nothing else


created: 2001-10-22 09:25:20
subject: <b>to Marcus</b>
body:
uh, Dashiva was Osangar was Aginor.  me thinks you need to reread the end of Winter's Heart.<br /><br />and i was all convinced that demandred was taim until the fool didn't recognize flinn.  having said this, if taim is taking orders from dema, then why wouldn't dema know that a third of the ashaman are grizzled, old men? surely they'd have talked about it.  i believe that Taim is either just a darkfriend, or being led by the nose by another forsaken.  <br /><br />also, as far as Anath/Semirhage letting Seanchan forces attack the whitecloaks, i think it makes perfect sense if Demandred is running with the unstained cloaks.  think about it.  the Forsaken have plotted against themselves as much as against anyone else.  i know that much has been said about the Semi/Dema/Messana tripod, but i think any Forsaken would  jump at the chance to eliminate possible competition to becoming Nae'blis.<br /><br />and by the way, where the heck is my Bashere = Demandred theory?  it covered way more bases than any other Dema theory i've seen (since Taimandred, anyway!).<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-22 11:12:15
subject: <b>To princeofthedawn</b>
body:
If you check the Theories, there was a Bashere = Demandred theory posted only a couple or three weeks ago (not yours). Very few believed in it and the Black Board contains loads of strong counter-evidence. While it's possible to make the theory slightly stronger than it was presented there, I doubt it's possible to make it strong enough to weigh up all that counter-evidence. It's simply not a working theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 04:11:12
subject: <b>Maybe Dem isn't anyone...</b>
body:
But himself.<br />Why should he be running around masquerading as someone else?<br />Maybe he's just giving orders to his pet DFs, and not actively involved as anyone.<br />This may sound improbable, but think about it.<br />It's just like RJ, to mislead us, and make us think that Dem is also out there masquerading a someone else. I think that he just set up a base of operations somewhere, and just keeps Travelling around to give orders to his proxies, then goes back to base and waits for the ensuing chaos.


created: 2002-02-26 13:20:35
subject: <b>Ummmm.. no!</b>
body:
It's a cute theory, but Weiramon and Demandred have too many distinct character traits. None of the Forsaken  hide their character as well as their identity from Rand (they don't know about LTT in his head) and even if they did, Demmy is too puffed up and foam-mouthed jealous of Rand/LTT to hide that. Weiramon is just a big, fat, slobby idiot!<br /><br />You insulted Rand... (Sniffs)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 03:50:08
subject: <b>a few odds and ends</b>
body:
Just a response to various points.<br /><br />1) someone mentioned Weiramon's attack on the hillforts as a sign that he can't be Demandred (and I guess you could lump Weiramon's general enthusiasm to lead his men into battle every time Rand fields an army to deal with just about anyone). Personally, I think it's _exactly_ what Demandred would do. If he's Weiramon, his role isn't to subtly undermine Rand by turning people against him or trying to kill him, it's to bugger Rand's position from within by sheer bloody-minded stupidity. Pretty much every suggestion Weiramon has ever made about strategy and tactics has been complete parp, and nine out of ten times he'll try and go ahead with his idiotic plans even if he's told not to. Demandred's plan is a strategic masterpiece since it's based on an almost unbeatable premise: there's no such thing as an idiot-proof system.<br /><br />2) Someone mentioned that Demandred and Weiramon have remarkably different mannerisms. The logical answer here is &quot;So what?&quot;. Weiramon is pretty much a caricature, and one so stupid that it'd be easy for even a really lousy actor to stay in-character whenever he's in public. All you have to do is act like the baddy Titanic and you're home free, and whenever you have to make a decision, you just figure out the most dumb-assed arrogant thing you could do and do it. <br /><br />3) Somehow Weiramon has managed not to cross the line and get himself executed. Let's just think about that for a moment. Weiramon is the world's biggest dumbass. He apparently refuses to be intimidated by Rand or anyone else, he's rude and dismissive of those less powerful than himself (and from his perspective that includes virtually everyone including his fellow High Lords of Tear), he continually leads suicidally stupid charges against superior enemies in battle, and he ignores Rand's orders on a regular basis to do incredibly dumb things. Now if Weiramon were a genuine grade-A moron who was willing to disobey Rand whenever he felt like it and not just someone pretending to be a moron, don't you think he'd have done something stupid and got himself hanged by now? Hell, he even manages to survive Tairen politics despite the fact that every prominent Tairen, Illianer, and Cairhienin noble who's ever met him hates his guts. <br /><br />  All in all, the evidence points to Weiramon's entire personality just being an elaborate fake, designed for the sole purpose of inconveniencing whoever's in charge of him (for all we know, he could originally have been intended to undermine Bel'al's position). If you assume that this is so, then it's plain as daylight that nothing Weiramon has _ever_ done was intended to strengthen his own position. If anything, he often deliberately risked the lot to be a pain in the ass, never once making an effort to gain more power for himself. And as we've seen from the actions of regular darkfriends in authority (Jaichim, all the Black Ajah, etc etc), most of them try and grab as much authoritah as they can from their position. The only person who'd be able to consistently be Weiramon for so long without trying to garner some power would be someone who already thinks that being a Tairen High Lord is small game. And the only people we've seen who think like that are the Forsaken.


created: 2002-10-20 11:48:32
subject: <b>LOL HOW SILLY</b>
body:
So Be'lal and Demandred were both just sitting around in the Stone of Tear? UH huh? When the Forsaken constantly scheme against each other? You dont think that might be a little unlikely?<br /><br />CHuckle<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 19:11:52
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Whose to say that Demandred didn't use the Real Weiramon's features for his disguise, kill him and take his place? Wouldn't be too hard. And as W. he would be doing a bloody good job of undermining Rand. 'Cos W. really does do some very stupid things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/33828.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>Ka mate! Ka mate! <br />Ka ora! Ka ora!<br />Ka mate! Ka mate!<br />Ka ora! Ka ora!<br />Tenei Te Tangata Puhuru huru<br />Nana nei tiki mai <br />Whakawhiti te ra <br />A upa ne ka up ane<br />Upane, Kaupane<br />Whiti te ra<br />Hi!</i></font><p><a href="http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&amp;NR=1" target="_blank">Haka from the Good Times</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 10:52:23
subject: <b>blow the horn??</b>
body:
<br /><br />UM, BTW how is that going to happen seeing that the Horn is in Tar Valon?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 14:17:57
subject: <b>Bah</b>
body:
Thats just a minor detail. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 23:23:00
subject: <b>In defense of the theory</b>
body:
You can use the horn multiple times as long as it's in &quot;moments of great need.&quot; The Seanchan are the single largest problem next to Tarmon Gaiden, so I don't see why the horn wouldn't be an option. The Seanchan are not simply going to roll over and turn to Rand's aid just because the Sul'dam can channel. I think that they will have to be dealt with in some capacity before the LB, and they have the capability to harness Rand against his will. Who's to say that their prophecy is wrong, it might just be edited so that his kneeling to the empress is final with no mention of escape. Rand's binding north/east to south/west will come before the LB in all likelyhood and Mat doesn't have enough luck to change a nations fundemental ideologies, so...how is it going to pan out?<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-18 23:25:12
subject: <b>side note</b>
body:
Egwene is going to settle the tower before Rand deals with the Seanchan. I though that was kind of obvious.


created: 2001-10-19 00:20:21
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
I don't see this as happening, this doesn't fit Tuon. I think what's more likely to happen is Anath gets hold of it, Mat talks Tuon into not wanting Rand to submit to her (ta'veren), Anath tries to talk Tuon into using it. Tuon tells her to shut up even if she is Soe'fia, Anath-Semi gets pissed off and tries to kill Mat, or someone, and then Tuon/Mat/someone else kills Anath-Semi. Yes, I know this has holes you can drive a cart through but I like Tuon's character too much to think she'd do this. And I don't think Mat could live with being married to a woman who'd betrayed his trust like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 04:13:06
subject: <b>But....</b>
body:
This is just me, but I don't think even Semi could torture Rand (with the a'dam) to the point of doing something he REALLY didn't want to.


created: 2001-10-20 02:52:03
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Just because Mat saw a vision during the travel aided by the portal stone that seemed to suggest some sort of betrayal, doesn't mean that this betrayal will definately happen.  They travelled thru some kind of alternative reality with many different possibilities.  Mat is just disturbed by (hopefully only) one vision that shows him betraying Rand.  If I saw a vision of me hurting my best friend, and it was one among many different visions, that is probably the one that would affect me the most and that I would dwell upon the most.


created: 2001-10-31 15:39:13
subject: <b>...to be forwarned</b>
body:
That Mat saw the possibility and was disturbed by it would suggest that it's something he would try to prevent.  I think knowing it's a possibility makes him even less likely to do anything like that...at least, I hope so.


created: 2002-02-07 22:39:28
subject: <b>Matt And Tuon</b>
body:
I agree with your first part.  Matt and Tuon are already married as far as Tuon is concerned.  And Matt will undoubtable fall in love with Tuon and grudgingly accept that she is the one.  This is enough for other characters (especially Egwene) to see Matt as a Judas.  As to what will happen with Semi and how Rand will outwit/out muscle her is a read and find out - at least for me.


created: 2002-02-10 12:20:39
subject: <b>calling him Judas is a bit of a stretch</b>
body:
Judas was weak and afraid and not holding to any morals or love when he betrayed Jesus, which are qualities that totally go against Mat and Mat's destiny. Remember the Finn's said that there will be people trying to keep Mat from being himself and what he's to become, so to say, that will unravel the pattern of threads all around him? If Mat is so important to Rand, as is the triumverate including Perrin, then I think that if Mat were to 'betray' Rand the result would be failure at the Last Battle.<br /><br />But RJ uses symbolic and archetypal allusions in WoT without much more than an approving nod from readers that such allusion 'might' be there or are just there in the slightest so that his story is brilliant.<br /><br />Thus, I see your point. But Mat could never say no to Rand. Perrin could, but not Mat.


created: 2002-03-13 20:31:37
subject: <b>Greatest Need</b>
body:
I hate to disagree with Raserai, because A) you help put out an awesome site and B) you guys are usually right,but Rand's greatest need is to GET to TG.  After he gets there all bets are off and the prophecies are done.  Now I'm not saying they shouldn't have and use the Horn of Valere at the Last Battle, but it don't mean squat if Rand doesn't make it there, so I would have to say that this is a valid theory.  Not necessarily correct, but it deserves consideration.<br /><br />Nimvin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-13 12:47:26
subject: <b>Would he have a chance?</b>
body:
If, perhaps, this particular event oocurs, this very well could be his greatest need.  After all, if he doesnt make it to Tarmon Gaidon, there wont be a greatest need.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Here lies one whose name was writ in water.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 07:14:16
subject: <b>Big Problem.</b>
body:
Ther is a huge problem with the male A'dam being placed on Rand.We have been told several times that eventually the will of the male can gain control over the female causing great struggle and pain for both wearers.Presumably Anath(Semirhage)knows this therefore why would she seek to place it on Rand when eventually she could have no control over him whatsoever,in fact he may end up having control over her!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-23 17:01:58
subject: <b>Semihrage's Insanity...</b>
body:
If you re-read my &quot;Judas and Betrayal&quot; post about Matt you'll see some interesting points. Semi's psych-profile clearly points to a person who would challange the notion that Rand, a man, could defeat her in psychological warfare via the Adam. It' sher obstinant thinking that will be her undoing. <br /><br />Matt on other hand can clearly be a man caught between his best friend and his love. The balance will come when Matt makes Rand and Tuon see eye to eye. He's only a pawn in some things. Remember, a Ta'veran is not going to lose control over his destiny. Other's get drawn into their spinning. He's a focal point of the damn pattern-Tuon's just a princess-like all the rest. <br /><br />I think some variation of this will transpire.


created: 2004-10-20 17:56:20
subject: <b>who knows, right?</b>
body:
First off, just because the PERSONALITY of someone doesn't fit the model, doesn't mean their fate won't. Mat's not like Odin, but their fates are thus far pretty paralel. Just because he doesn't ACT like Judas, doesn't mean his actIONS won't be like Judas'. Granted, I don't know the Judas/Jesus story, but I just wanted to point this out, because a couple people have been saying, &quot;No way, Mat's nothing like Judas(Odin!) Mat's a GAMBLER!&quot;<br /><br />Onto the theory. My problem with this, is by the time the Seanchan get their armies up and ready and start marching to Tarmon Gai'don (after word spreads that Mat Cauthon blew the horn; it's not like their going to be spectating the event, after all, IF they don't make the decision by then like this theory suggests) then they won't be much help. It's the Last BATTLE, not the Last WAR.<br /><br />And there's the fact that it seems pretty lame that they would show up when the Battle's nearing the end.


created: 2001-10-19 11:21:00
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This would make sense, and it would explain how cuendillar was made. During the Age of Legends, cuendillar would have been perceived as unbreakable because everything was good, but the evil of the future would prove this to not be so. There's only one difficulty and that is what is happening to other cuendillar? We've only seen a few objects, and they weren't ever under much stress (besides balefire in Tanchico, I think), so that would be why they wouldn't break.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 12:28:33
subject: <b>One problem</b>
body:
Why would you make the Dark One's seal out of a substance that is vulnerable to evil?  That's like trying to contain a fire with some gasoline soaked thicket, you're just asking for trouble.


created: 2001-10-19 15:23:01
subject: <b>fjlskdfjla</b>
body:
Place WOT name here, I think that they wouldn't have known that it was vulnerable to evil. They thought it was invincible, but were mistaken.


created: 2001-10-19 21:18:00
subject: <b>Maybe I'm way out of line here, but</b>
body:
RJ is a physics major.  So far, WoT channeling, while a form of mystical power, can be explained through mechanistic principles.  I don't think that he would create a mystical substance created by love or any unquantifiable emotion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />I can't prove that I exist.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 21:29:28
subject: <b>physics etc</b>
body:
Yeah I totally agree about the physics part.  Plus, if they don't know that it's made of love, why is it called Heartstone?  That's a kind of silly point I know, but if it IS made of love and they don't know it then RJ slipped.


created: 2001-10-19 22:02:45
subject: <b>Half and half</b>
body:
I like the &quot;heartstone is made from love&quot; idea, but I don't buy the idea of not knowing that cuendillar would fail under the weight of pure evil.  I mean, the war took a long time. You think somebody would have figured it out.<br />More likely the real explanation is something not yet revealed, or something obscure that few people have thought about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 23:35:33
subject: <b>pizza</b>
body:
I think that it is very possible that heartstone was made by Daishain Aiel, since there haven't been any weapons that were said to be made of the material. As to whether it is is made of love or not, love could play a part in it - whose to say that love can't be explained in terms of physics. There very well could have been a certain power stemming from the Aiel way of life/leaf that was required to make cuendillar.  So I wouldn't reject love as unscientific just because scientists often surpress such feelings.


created: 2001-10-19 23:39:24
subject: <b>Something to add to my comment above</b>
body:
We have seen other feelings turn into a tangeble power such as the hate that consumed Aridhol. It is now a real evil in the world that has metaphyisical powers as we have seen from what Fain can do. If Fain can transfer negative emotions into people and inanimate objects (Shadar Logoth), then why couldn't cuendillar be made from love and other pure emotions that only the followers of the Way could produce.


created: 2001-10-20 06:30:06
subject: <b>Why not?</b>
body:
Hey, just think about some other things: There are some Talents that have nothing to do with the OP. Just take Dreaming or Min&#180;s viewings. One of those Talents is Loial&#180;s Treesinging.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> So why should no one in the AoL have had the Talent to influence material in a way to become resistent to everything including the OP? Of course this would open one more possibility of the creation of <i>gholam</i>, if Aginor had been one of those with that Talent...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 19:55:38
subject: <b>A totally different look</b>
body:
Haven't read the stuff in awhile, so don't roast me for the errors, please!<br /><br />But taking the 'love' bit...maybe the Heartstone was from willing sacrifices? It's said that many male and female Aes Sedai did stuff knowing they'd die. The 'heart' part could mean their lifeblood.  And perhaps as Rand grows more into his power, the Cuellindar are weakening in accordance. And perhaps it will be HIS blood that will be needed to re-seal the Dark One...<br /><br />Yeah, I know, way out there...but just taking what some folks said and working it.


created: 2001-10-21 01:33:27
subject: <b>Perspective</b>
body:
Maybe heartstone IS breakbale, ppl just don't know it because they haven't found a way how. Maybe they could in the Age of Legends.<br /><br />On earth, when humans first found metal, they thought it was unbreakable.


created: 2001-10-21 13:29:45
subject: <b>Figure it out?</b>
body:
I don't think they would have figured it out in the war. You don't expect they'd just walk up to Shayol Ghul and say: &quot;Please, Dark One, could oyu try to destroy this so that we know if we can seal you with it?&quot;. My point is, what would they figure it out of? The comment doesn't give sense, there was no way to field-test cuendillar. I figure that they finally gave the Dark One a beating, and then sealed him with the strongest thing they have, which was the cuendilar they thought unbreakable (more precisely, it was unbreakable by anything they knew). The love and blood theories are both quite nice, and according to evidence I've seen, maybe a combination of both was needed? That would fit everything in nicely, but i have no idea about how that would work... Anyone?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Izradi Dellais, i eldalambendil<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-22 13:05:47
subject: <b>The Tinkers Song?</b>
body:
Not that I buy this theory, but if it were true then maybe the Tinkers song makes heartstone?<br /><br />mud


created: 2001-10-23 12:19:12
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Not that i totaly disagri with you others but you seem to forget the fakt that the Dark One is a god and more powerfull than any other thing in the wheel of time exept the creator. would not such a creature be able to destroy even the strongest thing of man, and thing about it. it have taken the Dark one several thusend years to weaken the seals on that time maby he figured something out that could destroy the undestroyeble maybe he revers the proses we have seen that the darkone can rise the dead so if the making of heart stone reqired the life of a aes sedai maby hi return those folks lifes


created: 2001-10-23 16:46:43
subject: <b>Symbols not actual seals...</b>
body:
I would like to suggest that these are symbols of the seals place upon the Dark One.  This may be out there but, think of the heartstone to be the monitoring device of the actual seals.  They were made of this unbreakable material so that someone could not drop the thing and release the DO.  I believe that they were made to &quot;break&quot; when the actual seals were weakening.  These disc's are nothing but the measuring tool to physically see how the seals are withstanding.  Made to serve a function...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Defender of the Free World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Professional Student of the &quot;Game&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> Watcher of the Unknown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 03:26:26
subject: <b>Heron-marked blades</b>
body:
The heron-marked blade of a true Blademaster-the kind that Aes Sedai made in the Age of Legends-never lose their edge, and don't break. Rand's was desimated by the powers of Ba'alzamon, but nothing else even chipped it.<br /><br />In other words, does it ever say what heron-marked blades are made of, and if it doesn't, who takes my theory that they're made of cuendillar? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I will defend that which needs defending<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I will be a BAD American if that is what is needed<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> I will live and love as I like, when I like<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I will worship as I will, or not at all if I desire<br /><br />-0- I am my own woman -0-<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 16:52:55
subject: <b>Heartstone can't be love....</b>
body:
If heartstone were made of love, or concieved of love, or anything else that has to do with love, then how do you explain the &quot;male a'dam&quot; meant to control Rand which was made out of Cuillendar. Could something made by a sacrifice for love really hold as much evil in it as that has? When someone touches it they feel pain and agony. Not very Heartstone like, is it?<br /><br />Personally I like the theory of monitering devices on the DO's prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 16:01:19
subject: <b>Verin is not Mesaana</b>
body:
I think Verin is a 'light friend'.  I think she might be working with the two retired sisters Moiraine visited in tGH and has been planning something with them for 30 years.<br /><br />Verin may have stumbled upon some old book about portal stones - she is a brown.  We know AS don't share their knowledge with either.<br /><br />The poisoning Casduane: She might have thought Casduane wanted to harm Rand, but when she found this not to be the case, she put the poison back.<br /><br />I'm am not so sure that the oath rod holds Verin. She may have realised herself from the oaths knowing that keeping to them is stupid with TG on its way. Without the oaths holding her she does seem to make a few slips:<br />1. In tGH, Verin says Moiraine sent her even though Moiraine didn't.<br />2. I think she lies when she is questioning one of the AS in the wise ones tents. I think this was in aCoS.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-20 17:09:27
subject: <b>Wow dissproved your own theory</b>
body:
By bringing up the fact that Verin has been brewing a plan for 70 years you shot a hole in your idea. The fact that she decided not too poison Cadsuane because she'd just found out that Cadsuane was serving Rands best interest also work against it.<br /><br />   As Bad Ash pointed out your quote was out of context. In that same quote you have Siuan saying  'I know very well who the Great Lord is daughter...', your logic shouldn't that mean that Siuan is a black ajah member? I think we can be fairly sure that she isn't. Also the fact that Mesaana has infiltrated the Aes Sedai is not much evidence at all. All that it really tells us is that Mesaana is someone in the white tower. We cant even be sure that she is an Aes Sedai.<br /><br />   Bery poorly done theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 17:21:50
subject: <b>Boy does this theory SUCK</b>
body:
This is the worst theory I have ever read. There is no argument for it. It is a logistic impossibility.


created: 2001-10-20 17:23:42
subject: <b>the vial,</b>
body:
Verin was given the vial by one of the Wise Ones, so we can assume its not poison, after all  they would never trust an Aes Sedai to have poison around the Car'a'carn, in fact i think the WO may have said something like 'i hope this helps with your problem' - can't check as dont have books.<br /><br /> This suggests a type of medicine that has a second use that Verin could have used on Cadsuane (making her more susceptible to Verins 'compulsion'?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 18:13:05
subject: <b>Regarding the vial.</b>
body:
I'm not getting the quote (lazy), but I remember quite clearly anyway: Verin got the vial from Sorilea. It makes you sleep, but Sorilea adds that too much is dangerous (or even deadly). It IS a poison, used that way. Verin almost certainly meant to poision Cadsuane, although it's not clear whether she would just let her sleep when Verin planned away other things, or she was meaning to kill Cadsuane. I'd lean to the second one, since if Verin would have had to poison Cadsuane for being dangerous to Rand, Cadsuane would be dangerous from that moment on. To kill her would have been the reasonable thing to do (and Verin does the reasonable thing!).<br /><br />And no, Verin is not Mesaana, dark friend or Black Ajah hunter. Period. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 19:48:01
subject: <b>From Elsewhere</b>
body:
I don't think she's BA, but she very well could be one of the people past the Aiel Waste (Sh-something) of whom Jain Fairstrider said that lying was second (and even first) nature for them.  She DOES lie -- several times. <br /><br />I think she's meant to be built up for something, just as Rand is beginning to build up an interest in them as well (and RJ setting us up).  First they were Graendal's footstools in a Forsaken meeting, then they were mentioned by either Rand or Thom, can't remember.<br /><br />Something's leading up to them. I'm guessing Verin's part of it. She doesn't seem to hold animosity against Rand, or wish him any ill, but she is not truthful, Aes Sedai or no.


created: 2001-10-20 20:15:40
subject: <b>About Shara...</b>
body:
Why would Verin be from Shara? Nothing in particular seems to indicate that. She is almost certainly from Far Madding, since her own POV suggests so.<br /><br />Furthermore, to say Verin lies is one thing. Some things she says could, objectively taken, be called lies. But she has not as yet for sure broken any Oaths, including the Oath for not lying. She twists her words more than any other Aes Sedai, and therefore pretty much fulfills the picture many commoners have of Aes Sedai. &quot;They never tell a lie, but the truth you hear is not necessarily the truth they mean&quot;, or something to that effect. Verin is just moreso than others, without much speaking for her being free from the Oath Rod.<br /><br />And she does not hunt the Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 01:18:58
subject:
<b>Thanks for the comments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Well, yeah, I guess I can see all that now.<br /><br />Whoops. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-21 02:43:42
subject: <b>Just a little hint...</b>
body:
I'm sure most people know this, but one sure fire way to find out if a character isn't what he/she appears to be, or at least get a hint that something is up, is by examining that characters PoV.  And we get a couple from Verin.  You can conclude form these that she isn't Black and she definently isn't Mesaana.  It helps to actually read the books to understand them...  I sure people are thinking &quot;duh, why did he have to state the obvious?&quot;  Well, my response would be there's an alarming amount of people that approved the &quot;Faile is a DF&quot; theory a couple of weeks ago.  Hate to break it to the Faile-Haters, but we've been her head too.  She isn't a DF.


created: 2001-10-21 08:19:28
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I'd quite like to hear a few points that prove Verin isn't hunting the BA. I've read the theory you're referring to and it's the best goddamned theory I ever saw and I know many do believe it. However I'd like to see if you can convince me otherwise.


created: 2001-10-21 10:35:13
subject: <b>Regarding Verin 70-year-plan theory...</b>
body:
I doubt I could convince you otherwise, simply because I'm not good at convincing people. I also base my view on the lack of good arguments for the theory, rather than because I have any better competing theory. Of course I can't prove the theory is wrong, more than Moridin2000 can prove it's correct. I think the only thing that is strongly arguable about Verin's 70-year-old plan at this point, is that it is Tarmon-Gaidon related (in a relatively loose way), possibly regarding the Breaking following TG. I think you should note how few actual arguments for Verin hunting the Black Ajah there actually are. The arguments used are also interpreted in ways that are not necessarily the best interpretation. The theory also fails to explain a great deal of Verin's actions (to say that Verin takes time off from her plan to help Rand without any reason is simply not a good explanation).<br /><br />I started debating the theory with Moridin2000 on the Black Board and then the MB, but we both soon realized that the answers would just get longer and longer, without the debate leading anywhere. Therefore I'm not willing to debate EVERYTHING said in the theory at once, although I'm willing to argue against specific arguments one at a time.<br /><br />I MIGHT put up a full theory arguing against it, sometime, but I think it would simply take too long to write. Is there any specific argument for the theory you think is particularly strong?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 15:10:43
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
...do you not think it is the most likely explanation that we have currently seen? I understand your doubts, but surely they are not strong enough to definitely claim that Verin is not a BA hunter. I mean, I can understand people making such a strong claim when people think Deamandred is Taim, they can back it up. I am a bit like you, I'm not taking it as proof that Verin is a BA hunter, but until I see something to disprove it, I'll have to believe that (as I have to believe something). <br /><br />I don't have time to read the theory again right now (I will though), so I'll just think of some points off the top of my head.<br /><br />Etta (hope that's right) is BA. In the final battle of Winer's Heart we see her POV and she says that it was during her time captured in the Aiel tents that it suddenly came to her that Rand must survive to face the DO at TG. Now we know that Verin was using a form of compulsion on these Aes Sedai, so it is logical to conclude that there is the possibilty that Verin discovered Etta was BA and compelled her to keep Rand safe. In fact, it seems very likely. You could argue that Verin found this out in passing, that her real purpose is something else, but the BA hunter idea is just as likely.<br /><br />Certainly Verin is searching for something to do with Aes Sedai and as she looks at all different Ajahs, it's something that could cover all of them, nothing specific (like if she wanted to learn about how Reds capture men, she'd focus on them). It must be something very important as well for her to risk so much doing it and to have spent so long. Uncovering the BA certainly fits into this category.<br /><br />As for why Verin heads off after Rand, it would seem like a sensible idea for a BA hunter. After all, once she knew he was the Dragon Reborn, it should have seemed obvious to her that the BA would try to target him. Now, if she is a BA hunter, she'd want to uncover them all with one swift blow, so clearly there are BA out there whom she has found, but not told anyone. While she hunts for the BA, clearly she also needs to keep Rand alive. If not, what is the point in hunting? If Rand dies, who cares if th BA exists, the world is doomed. However, if she stays close to him, she can protect him from any sisters who she knows are black. There is of course the added advantage that staying close to him will bring more BA to her who she hasn't discovered, it could well accelerate her progress.<br /><br />It seems to me a very strong theory. Sure, there is no proof of it, but that's hardly surprising, if there was proof, there'd be no debate here. However, all these different things that could indicate she is a BA hunter and while they can be explained some other way, I doubt all of them can be explained for the same reasons, as they can be for BA hunting. It is definitely the most likely thing right now. If someone could come up with another explanation that has as many indicators attached to it, I'd support that one as well. But I haven't read one anywhere yet.


