# w_comment

created: 2008-09-27 20:00:51
subject: <b>Wow, I'm not completely sure if I agree, but still,</b>
body:
a very good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-28 03:07:11
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I think its a good theory.<br /><br />And remember the sword Rand used against Ishamael? I don't have an English version handy, but in the Finnish version it sure sounds a lot like balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-01 14:49:15
subject: <b>what about the True Power?</b>
body:
In aCoS when Moridin and Rand's balefire crosses, Moridin is using the TP and Rand the OP. If balefire is the essense of the OP, how can the TP create it?<br /><br />It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's very likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-03 11:24:40
subject: <b>elementary kfc</b>
body:
the TP is the DO's power and from what we have seen it can do almost all of what the OP can. the TP has its own essence so TP balefire would do the same as OP balefire.<br /><br />the DO is all about death, chaos and destruction so he probably likes balefire and wants the forsaken to be able to use a TP version that works in the same way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BBM &lt;3 LTT<br /><br />In fire there is the spark of chaos and destruction and the seed of life. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />In ice there is perfect tranquility, perfect order and the silence of death.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-06 15:02:57
subject: <b>&quot;saidin and saidar are used to drive the wheel of time&quot;</b>
body:
Is there a general presumption that there is an actual 'wheel' somewhere being driven by the OP?  I take this to be a metaphor, like the fates spinning the threads of people's lives (or however that goes).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-04 12:51:15
subject: <b>I agree and would like to add...</b>
body:
that Moiraine described bubbles of evil as if they were gases rising in a swamp, and that Verin (or someone) states that there are three things in all realities: the creator, the DO and TAR. Given this, I like the sphere rising through paper analogy.<br /><br />I see the surface of the swamp as being the world as things are and can be expressed. I then see the gases rising from the bottom of the swamp as being the influence of the DO, and the air at the surface as being a neutralizing effect on such bubbles of evil, or to some extent the influence of the creator. TAR is both the air above and the waters below. And I do think that the DO can affect TAR. I believe that when Rand was fighting Ishamael in the Stone while physically following in TAR, he said the DO's name and felt it ringing in his head (but I don't have the book with me to say for sure). And I do think that the ghosts in KoD was the DO's work, since he is unmaking the wheel.


created: 2008-10-05 07:59:25
subject: <b>Good additions!</b>
body:
I totally forgot the 'rising through the swamp' analogy, but remember it now that you mention it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The force that pushes the bubbles of evil through isn't, I think, caused directly by the DO. I think that there may exist a 'barrier' of sorts between TAR and the real world(s) and that the DO has weakened that barrier, allowing parts of TAR to drift through. I think that it may be possible that the nightmares create the force that pushes through to the real world. <br /><br />Or it may not be that way, it may be a direct effect of the DO. The barriers weakening does, however, also explain the loosening of the Pattern in recent books. This barrier would also be the same one used in Travelling.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-06 14:31:59
subject: <b>Hmmm ...</b>
body:
TAR isn't inherently &quot;evil&quot;, and it's not filled solely with &quot;nightmares&quot;.  Rather, I think it's inherently neutral (i.e. neither good nor evil) and filled with whatever good or evil dreams people fill it with.<br /><br />Since Bubbles of Evil ARE inherently evil (hence the name), if they are an intersection between TAR and the Real World, then the DO has a way to manipulate the intersection in such a way that only &quot;nightmare dreams&quot; intersect.  So, in that sense, I think you would still say that the DO is responsible for the bubbles being evil, even though he doesn't (in this case) determine the exact nature of the evil; the nature of the evil would be deterimined by the nature of the TAR nightmare, as you said.<br /><br />However, if I had to guess, I'd guess that Bubbles of Evil are not an intersection between TAR and the Real World.  Rather, I'd guess that BoE are little micro-realities (maybe something like Vacules) created by the DO that intersect the Real World, and that the DO can ... aim ... where he wants, to some extent; either at ta'veren or perhaps where the Shadow has a strong presence - in other words, along identifiable (to the DO) parts/lines/strings of the Pattern.<br /><br />It could be that the nature of the BoE is such that it has to draw on the fears of those it comes into contact with in order to create an &quot;evil&quot; reality within the sphere.  That would fit with your idea that the DO does not determine the nature of the evil, but rather the nature of the evil is determined by the people the BoE comes in contact with.<br /><br />The reason I like this idea better than your TAR idea is ... locations in TAR map directly to locations in the Real World.  So, if BoE are intersections between TAR and the RW (as you suggest), then it would require a coincedence between the place in TAR where the nightmare is occuring, and the place in the RW where it intersects.  What I mean is ... if the DO wanted a BoE to attack Rand in Fal Dara, say, then He'd have to use a nightmare that happens to be occuring in TAR Fal Dara at the desired moment He wants it to &quot;attack&quot; Rand in RW Fal Dara.  He couldn't use a nightmare that is occuring in TAR Caemlyn, say, to attack Rand in RW Fal Dara, because he could not make a nightmare in TAR Caemlyn intersection with RW Fal Dara; He could only (theoretially) make it intersect with the RW Caemlyn (as I envision such a thing, anyway).<br /><br />Do you see what I mean?<br /><br />Consequently, I think I prefer the idea that the DO create the micro-realities Himself (unrelated to TAR), and aims them at the targets he chooses.  Perhaps in some cases He doesn't aim at all, and instead just lets the BoE go and &quot;hit&quot; some random target.<br /><br />Anyway ... I like the analogy of a 3D bubble passing through a 2D reality.  It works pretty well, I think.  If you were to expand that idea to a 4D bubble passing through a 3D reality, then the 4th &quot;D&quot; of the bubble could simply be &quot;time&quot; - i.e. the BoE only exists for a period of &quot;time&quot; in the 3D reality.  That also works, I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-06 14:44:17
subject: <b>One additional thought ...</b>
body:
To expand upon my last comment a little ... perhaps if the DO were to &quot;break free&quot; of his prison completely, and have full access to the Pattern, he could create a Bubble of Evil so large/powerful that it could encompass the entire Pattern for a VERY long (read, &quot;indefinite&quot; ) amount of time.<br /><br />That would effectively provide the DO with a way of &quot;remaking&quot; reality in his (evil) image without having to destroy what is already in place.<br /><br />I kind of like that idea, actually.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-08 10:51:06
subject: <b>The Fourth Dimension is Always Time</b>
body:
Dimensions 1 through 4 are not to be confused with paralell existence.  <br /><br />A bubble of evil is a phase shift from one three dimensional existence to another three dimensional existence.  The fourth dimension would only be appropriate if the bubble of evil was a previous occurance on in the same location but several years, decades or centuries previous.  <br /><br />ie.  If Jack the Ripper were to reappear in the Whitechapel district of London in the year 2008 and kill someone that would be a fourth dimensional occurance.<br /><br />If Jack the Ripper were to appear in Sydney, Austrailia and kill someone in his own time that would be a phase shift.  <br /><br />there is the possiblity of combining the two but as far as the wheel of time story line I am not certain if it is clear that the &quot;bubbles of evil&quot; are from a previous time or if they are from a contemporary existance but from a different location. <br /><br />The ghost cities are fouth dimensional shifts. <br /><br />i am not so sure about the bubbles of evil.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-08 14:39:50
subject: <b>The fourth dimension is not always time...</b>
body:
If you had a 2D circle on a page, you might extend it to a third dimension or have it as a 2D circle that changes diameter with time. This you have a choice of space or time as the THIRD dimension.<br /><br />Likewise with the 3D version - the FOURTH dimension need not be time. When a 4D object passed through 3D, it does have a time dimension to it too, but as a FIFTH dimension. In other words we are talking about a 4D object travelling along the axis of the FOURTH dimension. The FIFTH dimension of time is needed to describe motion. When the 4D object intersects with a given value of the FOURTH dimension, then it produces a 3D shape as an intersection.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-08 14:52:58
subject: <b>Comments for Bob/Shishka</b>
body:
Yep, the 4th dimension could be time too and it could be simply a changing bubble, but it would not explain so well why such occurences are finite in length. Plus I liked the idea of it coming from TAR because of the similarity with nightmares specifically and I can imagine the 4th dimension based on the lines verin draws and her description of TAR.<br /><br />with regard to the nightmares, I think it should be mentioned that nightmares can break off and wander quite freely through TAR and the world. Just like the Heroes can travel through TAR. The two options I put forward in the theory are:<br /><br />1. The DO pushes bubbles through that contain nightmares within them by targeting the nightmare. Since the nightmares can drift in TAR, it means that he doesn't have to target someone that is sleeping and having that nightmare right at that moment. This is possible because we know that the nightmares have occured lots of places where the ta'veren have not been. Or even anywhere important. they happen in remote villages and in Salidar. if he were 'targeting' people, then he has made hundreds of bubbles of evil that were way off the mark.<br /><br />2. The Dark One does make specific targets, but the nightmares attempt to 'escape' by rushing to the areas that is intersecting with the Pattern. In other words, the DO just makes the bubble and the nightmares come themselves without the DO's direct influence. Just like they might seek out prey in people who are real and in TAR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-08 15:57:07
subject: <b>To M2K ...</b>
body:
That's a very good point you raised in your 2nd paragraph.  I had forgotten that TAR nightmares can break off and &quot;drift&quot; on their own.  That eliminates (or at least greatly reduces) the issue I raised in my post.<br /><br />As for your 2 options ... I understand what you mean.  I need to ponder them some more, before commenting further.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-08 23:21:14
subject: <b>I am unfamiliar with your reckoning of dimension</b>
body:
Moridin_2000 I have no intention of being rude but I would like to pursue a line of inquiry about your development of Dimension and text being unemotional can be misconstrued.  Please understand that I am typing out of curiosity not hostility. <br /><br />My understanding of Dimensions may be unconventional but it follows thusly.<br /><br />one dimensionality cannot be in contact with anything other than itself. This is a state of near impossibility.<br /><br />two dimensional existence can only make direct contact.  itself and that which it is against.  it cannot perceive space. <br /><br />Three dimensional existence has the ability to comprehend not only that which is in direct contact but also that which is at a distance from the perception receptors.  <br /><br />Fourth dimensional existence is the ability to move through time.  to know a thing that is not currently in contact but has been in contact at a previous time.<br /><br />People being three dimensional beings have difficulty perceiving the fourth dimension because the tools they work with are three dimensional.  <br /><br />your idea of a fifth dimension interests me.  what would that be based on?<br /><br />drawing on paper is always two dimensional in its nature even if the theory presented attempts to address other dimensions.<br /><br />I am just not familiar with how you are developing your dimensions.  <br /><br />It is possible we are both using the word dimension but expecting different meanings to be understood.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-09 10:44:26
subject: <b>In mathematics..</b>
body:
...multiple dimensions are studied. A hypersphere or hypercube is a sphere or cube in four dimensions of space. <br /><br />If you can imagine an MRI machine, what it does is provide a picture of a 3D object using a series of 2D slices. To get a feel of what the 3D object is like, we can put them together like a film and watch a movie of 2D slices. In this case a static 3D object can be represented as 2D plus time as a third dimension.<br /><br />So how to show a 4D shape? You can do the same thing by representing it as a series of 3D shapes with time as a fourth dimension. It is a 'set' of shapes that are defined by rules in 4D just as a circle or sphere is defined by rules in 2D or 3D. *<br /><br />But the process of making the MRI image work is a little more complicated. To get these slices, we must move a person (3D) through the plane (2D) of the scanner. So that means that the 3D object is moving along the THIRD dimension perpendicular to the TWO contained in the viewing plane. But this movement can only be described by bringing in the FOURTH dimension of TIME - movement is a velocity, and velocity needs time. So in order to visualise a 3D object on 2D, we must use the FOURTH dimension of time.<br /><br />Extending that to my 4D 'Bubble' it means that to visualise a 4D object passing through a 3D world, we must use time as a FIFTH dimension. Instead of it passing perpendicular to a plane (2D), it must pass through our 3D space along the FOURTH dimension.<br /><br />When Jordan speaks about the different worlds, they are different sets of 3D worlds. It can only be imagined by extending into a FOURTH dimension.<br /><br />Here is a video! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDaKzQNlMFw<br /><br />This is one way of showing a 4D object in space by rotating it. It is a representation of a 4D object as a 3D 'shadow'. You can have fun looking at more videos. I posted a couple more things on the WoT MB that I found that I thought were interesting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />* And that is just for regular shapes. Irregular shapes exist in 2D and 3D (and 4D!).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-09 17:09:31
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
&quot;So how to show a 4D shape? You can do the same thing by representing it as a series of 3D shapes with time as a fourth dimension. It is a 'set' of shapes that are defined by rules in 4D just as a circle or sphere is defined by rules in 2D or 3D. *&quot;<br /><br />If i understand what this paragraph is saying a three dimensional object as a 4D shape would be a connected series of the object as it existed in the constraint of the section of time chosen.  basic example, a ball would look like a tube with round ends since each moment of the ball's motion would be layered against each other.<br /><br />That i can see.  What is confusing me is how this 4D shape which is still time based since that is one of the parameters used to constrain its definition creates the idea that the 4th dimention is not always time.<br /><br />yes it is a shape in theory but is it not also a series of shapes connected by the use of time to link them.  This makes the finished product time based.<br /><br />I watched the video and it confuses me how the video is trying to apply 3D concepts to 4D existence.  a fourth dimensional being would not have a three dimensional body.  that would be like having a three dimensional being have a two dimensional body.  even paper has an atomic thickness giving it depth along with height and length. <br /><br />two dimensional being cannot percive something that they are not in contact with.  the general idea that a two dimensional existence would have comprehension of distance would make it capable of three dimensional thought and not make it two dimensional any more. <br /><br />I digress.  I watched the video.  It has some flaws of logic.  lets move on.<br /><br />I apologize for not being as up to speed mathematicaly but I assume you are using theoretical math which is more of a field of study and less of a general knowledge base.<br /><br />&quot;Extending that to my 4D 'Bubble' it means that to visualise a 4D object passing through a 3D world, we must use time as a FIFTH dimension. Instead of it passing perpendicular to a plane (2D), it must pass through our 3D space along the FOURTH dimension.&quot;<br /><br />I think i understand that you are creating a 'Bubble' which is a segement of time that holds the actions of the 3D object/objects in question from the parallel world or evil plane or where ever they come from.   In this case you are refering to the encapsulated time as a 4D object and applying 5D as the force that shifts the object from its normal plane of existence to the parallel plane.<br /><br />All i am seeing is that you have reduced the Time based object to being a three dimensional existence and shifted the idea of time to another level since you cannot use time on two dimensions.  <br /><br />The fourth dimension is still always time.  It is a requirement to create the parameters of the 'Bubble'. The fifth dimesion would have to be something greater than time.  <br /><br />Parallel universe is where i am getting all hung up.  I think it is more of a phase shift between one and the other and not so much a Dimensional issue.<br /><br />&quot;When Jordan speaks about the different worlds, they are different sets of 3D worlds.&quot; <br /><br />This i get<br /><br />&quot;It can only be imagined by extending into a FOURTH dimension.&quot;<br /><br />This is where i get confused. <br /><br />obviously you have spent a great portion of your time getting educated about maths and such.<br /><br />I only apply the most basic logic to things. <br /><br />Fiction confuses me sometimes.  I still think it is a good theory on the theory post.  It has an interesting point.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-28 01:18:37
subject: <b>4d 5d</b>
body:
There are theories that 11 dimensional space resonates on abstract wavelengths the meaning of which is a kind of spiraled interrelated nature through other dimensions that all kind of coalesce into a singularity (1 dimension) while having as a higher dimension the largest of the the dimensions.  As I understood it these strings traversed one another as a property of existence rather than distance.<br /><br />The idea that a bubble of evil is a manifestation of a higher dimension would mean that not only is its existence contained in some element across higher dimensions, but also that there is a means of making a physical manifestation of massive third dimensional scenarios from &quot;triggers&quot; through higher dimensions.  Pure, ridiculous unnecessary theorizing.  stimulating, but unnecessary.  A Adot growing outward on a two D surface because it is seen from a 3d perspective makes sense, but that dot itself is actually more dimensions than two d when viewed from 4D.  When viewed from 3d, as is our means of viewing it.  There is no cognition to a higher dimension as outlined scientifically, as such these dimensions are merely of theoretical and volitionless property derived from speculative and debatable notions about the nature of a nearly impossible to visualize composition of the universe.  This lack of volition in higher dimensions is VOID if we give the nature of the bubbles of evil intent.  Besides being of no predictive value as of yet, theoretical models of higher dimensions offer no insight into the property of transmuation that must occur when a higher dimensional aspect resonates on a kind of frequency into our dimension through a kind of evil intent and manifests as 3d objects constrained by a disintegrating fourth dimensional sequence.  Finally, these bubbles are not the representation of higher dimensions, they are represented in 3d, though the bubbles existence could take place within higher dimensions and lesser ones theoretically.  Finally, i believe volition comes from 3D.  <br /><br />Final questions:<br />First, is the Dark One three dimensional, a physical presence?  Is it four dimensional, in that it represents a constant and relative notion of measurement?  Time is relative, is the dark one relative?  Is space-time curved?  If so, does that mean the dark-one represents a warping of reality such that he can make time relative?  Is that how being close to him extends life?  If the darkone represents curved space time, is he mad and upset that higher dimensional forces could be crappin on him?


created: 2008-10-12 20:16:47
subject: <b>It is a good parallel to the Steward of Tear</b>
body:
It makes sense.<br /><br />It is also nice to see the Rodel storyline all together since there is so little and it is spread out in the prologues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-14 17:27:15
subject: <b>Agree, but you spelled it wrong. ITURALDE!</b>
body:
Nice theory, and I agree, but the fact that you spelled his name wrong every time you wrote it, despite the fact the name, spelled correctly, appeared in many of your quotes, drove me crazy.<br /><br />Read your own post.<br /><br />


created: 2008-10-14 19:38:05
subject: <b>LOL!</b>
body:
I can never spell that name correctly. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ach, you know who I mean. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-11-24 16:07:39
subject: <b>too easy</b>
body:
To me it seems as though RJ has been misdirecting us down this route. Through the series so far the one thing id say about RJ as a writer is that he's unpredictable. This theory's just too obvious for RJ, plus I'm sure I've heard somewhere that Ituralde is known as the Wolf. If he was made king then he would compete against Perrin as 'The Wolf King', no I think Rodel will have a part to play but not as king of Arad Doman


created: 2008-11-27 18:29:01
subject: <b>Just because we can figure it out..</b>
body:
...doesn't mean it is 'too easy'. After all, Semirhage being Anath and Moiraine's predicted return were 'easy'. As were a score of other things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-19 23:11:55
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Although it's not a fully fleshed out &quot;theory&quot; (ie, which of the choices presented end up being what happens...), I like it because I have wondered about Sarene, and it would be interesting to see a snippet about where this goes. I don't know how there will be time for it in the last book, but it would be nice. It was an interesting side plot. Two thumbs up!


created: 2008-10-20 00:10:23
subject: <b>I voted Yes</b>
body:
But I think this will fall under what BS calls &quot;unresolved plots in AMoL&quot; not gonna lie, if BS spends even half a chapter of AMoL on a love story of a very minor character I would be pretty pissed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-20 16:39:51
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
I would actually enjoy having little side issues like this dealt with in AMOL. I think it is those very details that set RJ apart from the rest; His world has a degree of colour and intricacy that makes it interesting and &quot;believable&quot;.<br />Well done.<br />A nice little theory of no consequence but of great interest.<br />


created: 2008-10-23 14:26:27
subject: <b>another possibility</b>
body:
We don't know but I expect a romantic relationship that goes beyond the simple sexual that we have seen from greens with their warders might be against tower policy.  this would certinly make any love affair they had tempestuous.  It also may actually turn out to be important...Jordan loves his Irony and it would be terribly ironic for Min to dismiss this viewing as not useful and have it turn out to be very useful.  I have no idea how it could turn out to be useful though...


created: 2008-11-17 15:04:54
subject: <b>Tempestuous:</b>
body:
- Stormy, tumultuous, turbulent, agitated, wild.<br /><br />Not to be confused with simply illicit. An affair which is against Tower policy would be illicit, but it is the quality of the relationship that determines whether it is tempestuous or not.<br /><br />The simple answer is usually the most valid. The dichotomy of a White involved in anything emotional enough to be called 'tempestuous', is itself the whole point. It is far outside their usual nature.<br /><br />I think that attempting to hunt for possible events that would drive conflict, and then applying those as the source of a 'tempest' within a relationship, is clutching at straws. Some man or another is going to cause Sarene's blood to boil. Perhaps it is her warder, perhaps not.<br /><br />A poet need not be involved with someone to write a complementary metaphor comparing their physical attributes to those of a wild animal. It isn't proven by that passage that Sarene necessarily carries a torch for her warder; simply that she finds his appearance, grace of movement, and general nature inspiring to her hidden poetic artistry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-25 22:06:51
subject: <b>I agree generally but...</b>
body:
I don't think it is much of a leap to suggest that Demandred has been pulling Masema's strings.  That much has been suggested by many people and a number of theories.  The bit about the sidekick with the &quot;burning eyes&quot; is interesting, but the evidence is pretty thin.  There just isn't much to go on here. <br /><br />A couple things that might be added to this theory.  I don't have my books handy so I can't quote text, but please bear with me.  <br /><br />Recall the Forsaken Tea Party.  At the end, Moridin shows the images of the two ta'veren (minus Rand, whom everyone knows) and Semirhage says something to the effect of &quot;If you'd shown us these sooner they might be dead already&quot;.  She could be referring just to Mat here, whom we know she's seen, but her reference to &quot;they&quot; implies that she's seen the others as well.  I've racked my brain and the only scenario I can think of where she would have had the opportunity to see Perrin is if she's been working directly with Masema on behalf of the Seanchan.  You brought Suroth's letter up in your theory as well, which also fits with the scenario of Semirhage and Demandred working together, which we know they do. I think the Tea Party scene adds to this line of thought. <br /><br />Also, recall that immediately after the Tea Party scene, Perrin takes an arrow through the arm.  This appears to me to be a direct result of the Tea Party directive.  This is the first time that I can think of that Perrin is directly targeted by the Forsaken. Granted the order could have come from any of the Forsaken at the meeting, but it is suggestive that it took place so soon afterward.  The implication is that someone recognized him, knew where he was, and already had assets in the area.  Masema's men would be the obvious source of the darkfriends although I don't recall whether the assasins were identified as the Prophet's men.  In any case, I find it interesting that Masema, who despises Perrin and his companions by all outward impressions, would not have taken a direct shot at Perrin prior to this unless someone (e.g., Demandred) was holding him back.  <br /><br />So to conclude, I think there is ample evidence that both Demandred and Semirhage have had some contact with Masema and are directing him from behind the scenes.  It remains to be seen whether we have come across them in disguise, but your theory is as good as any I guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-27 14:43:26
subject: <b>Semirhage kind of obvious</b>
body:
Semirhage would indirectly have contact with Masema just because of his meetings with the Seanchan, who could have been acting under her orders. The theory presented is interesting however, and Masema must be having some Forsaken contact proven by his action alone. Demandred fits the profile because he likes to pull strings, so it is definetly plausible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-30 13:23:06
subject: <b>I am not sure about Masema's man</b>
body:
I think the guy who stood by Masema's side was one of the Shienarans loyal to him. Recall, when Uno decided to join Nynaeve and Elayne, he said that a couple of his men (can't remember the names) are way too much into Masema's ramblings. When I read the passage about that meeting between Perrin and Masema, I assumed that guy was also a Shienaran. That said, I don't deny that he could have been Demandred in disguise, since he can do that, and we've seen Semirhage do that with Tuon's Voice.


created: 2008-10-30 19:19:56
subject: <b>Another thought</b>
body:
Am I the only one whose wondering how Masema's bodyguard managed to cut through an army of Aiel?  I know they're described as somewhat better armed than the rest of his folk and we're talking about the Shaido, but come on... I've always wondered whether Demandred wasn't there to make sure Masema survived.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-31 21:08:03
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I enjoyed the theory, and thats what it is. I think it could be either of the forsaken, but Im leaning to both of them.


created: 2008-11-02 22:28:18
subject: <b>Re: logain</b>
body:
<blockquote>Also, recall that immediately after the Tea Party scene, Perrin takes an arrow through the arm. This appears to me to be a direct result of the Tea Party directive. This is the first time that I can think of that Perrin is directly targeted by the Forsaken. Granted the order could have come from any of the Forsaken at the meeting, but it is suggestive that it took place so soon afterward. The implication is that someone recognized him, knew where he was, and already had assets in the area. Masema's men would be the obvious source of the darkfriends although I don't recall whether the assasins were identified as the Prophet's men. In any case, I find it interesting that Masema, who despises Perrin and his companions by all outward impressions, would not have taken a direct shot at Perrin prior to this unless someone (e.g., Demandred) was holding him back.</blockquote><br />I don't think this was Masema's men (this time).  This attack happened when Perrin travelled across half of Altara to steal the Seanchan's forkroot.  This couldn't have possibly been planned in advance, so it must have been Seanchan or locals.<br /><br /><br />I have no problems with the Theory, or with Semirhage knowing where Perrin is but I'm still not sure if I'd like Masema to be a proxy like that...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean:  You?  No!<br /><br />Ruarc:  Sorry!  Sometimes I forget to wear pants!<br /><br />        -Isam's WoT Summaries</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-07 18:53:49
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I like this theory simply because I've always simplified with Aram. The compulsion aspects puts him in the category of victim in my mind.


created: 2008-11-17 14:48:56
subject: <b>Simplified?</b>
body:
The theory is well thought out, fits the evidence at hand, and has no significant &quot;holes&quot;. Nicely done.<br /><br />&gt;&gt;I like this theory simply because I've always simplified with Aram. The compulsion aspects puts him in the category of victim in my mind.&lt;&lt;<br /><br />I'm guessing the word &quot;simplified&quot; was supposed to be &quot;sympathized&quot;, then what is said makes sense to me, that Aram wasn't evil, just an unwitting, probably compelled, pawn of a Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-14 08:28:31
subject: <b>Agreed with the proxy....</b>
body:
....but not the identity of the hooded man with Masema.  As with the above post, the description fits with the two Shienarins that stayed with Masema when the rest left with Ninny.  Maybe I'm wrong and though will look into it.<br /><br />As for getting away from the Shaido, I'm not convinced Forsaken intervention was required.  With nearly all of their channel-able Wise Ones keeled over and most of the Algai d'Siswai killed, injured or at the least disjointed, Masema and his band of 200 could have made it to the rest of his &quot;people.&quot;  Given Tylee's remarks, it happened after/near the end of the battle when the Shaido would have been more concerned with fleeing than engaging.<br /><br />Masema - definitely DO influenced, most likely by Demandred or one of his &quot;allies&quot; though I do not believe Masema knows it.


created: 2008-11-17 14:36:56
subject: <b>First!</b>
body:
Not sure why that holds so much appeal, but whatever.<br /><br />Anyways, I can completely agree with this. Just the fact that Moridin only mentions nine, when there would indeed be ten, if Bel'al, Asmodean, or Sammael were alive. So, Taim is conclusively none of these people. It just makes more sense that he was &quot;tutored&quot; by one of the Chosen. I'm betting on Moridin himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-17 17:12:54
subject: <b>I agree but ...</b>
body:
... that &quot;nine people living know sharah&quot; quote is not so clear.  Because ... that scene in the TPoD prologue where Moridin mentions the &quot;nine living people&quot; took place, chronologically, before Sammael was killed in Shadar Logoth at the end of ACoS.<br /><br />We know this because in TPoD ch.2, we see Moridin watch the girls take the Bowl of the Winds through the gateway from Ebou Dar to near the Kin farm.  And, we know that the girls used the Bowl two days before Sammael was killed (there's a good discussion in the original WoT FAQ on this issue).  And, since Moridin's scene in the TPoD prologue took place before his scene in TPoD ch.2, that prologue scene must also have taken place before Sammael was killed (unless you think the prologue scene is chronologically out of order with respect to the scene in TPoD ch.2, but RJ has never had a character have scenes chronologically out of order in the same book).<br /><br />So, really, Moridin should have thought &quot;only 10 people living knew sharah&quot;, or &quot;only 9 <i>other</i> people living knew sharah&quot;, in his TPoD prologue scene.  But, that would still exclude Be'lal from the ranks of the living, so it doesn't change your conclusion.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-17 17:29:03
subject: <b>Not every Forsaken would have necessarily known the game</b>
body:
they may have known of it, but just because someone is alive at the same time as a game is popular doesn't mean that they know how to play the game. Therefore, Be'lal could still be included in the number if another one of the Forsaken just wasn't interested.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Val Hala sucks, trust me I've been there. Noone bathes...&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-18 04:13:09
subject: <b>why Taim is not Be'lal</b>
body:
If Taim was Be'lal, he would participate as Taim (or as some mystery forsaken if he was posing as Taim) at the forsaken meetings, like all the other resurrected forsaken participate at these meetings.


created: 2008-11-18 10:16:50
subject: <b>Hey guys</b>
body:
Sorry this theory got posted-- After I wrote it, I realized this same argument has been posted on wotmania by Etzel several years ago.  I asked for the whole thing to get deleted-- but I guess another admin posted it.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-18 10:21:08
subject: <b>I think that all the Forsaken would know sha'rah</b>
body:
Sha'rah was probably like chess back then, and all the sophisticated people probably knew how to play it-- even if they only knew the basic rules.  <br /><br />Shiska-- thanks for pointing out that this scene was not in chrnological order with the end of ACOS.  I didn't know that.  So you think Moridin's quote was an error by RJ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-18 13:32:19
subject: <b>To Matrimoni ...</b>
body:
I agree with you that all of the Forsaken surely remember sha'rah.  Even if one or more didn't, how would Moridin know that?  I doubt he polled everyone before thinking that thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Obviously, Moridin's comment was meant to tell us how many Forsaken were alive at that particular moment.<br /><br />Therefore, yes, I think RJ made an error.  Likely, he forgot that Sammael's death in ACoS took place, chrononlogically, after the TPoD prologue scene, and therefore mistakenly excluded Sammael from the count of the living sha'rah rememberers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-18 14:35:00
subject: <b>LTT</b>
body:
In a way LTT is also &quot;alive&quot;. So he should have been also included among those 9 people:lol


created: 2008-11-19 14:00:06
subject: <b>Gilgamesh...</b>
body:
<i>&quot;they may have known of it, but just because someone is alive at the same time as a game is popular doesn't mean that they know how to play the game. Therefore, Be'lal could still be included in the number if another one of the Forsaken just wasn't interested.&quot;</i><br /><br />Good logic, but <br /><br />(1) without any clue anywhere that one of the Forsaken *didn't* know how to play, there's absolutely nothing to support that idea,<br /><br />(2) If <i>n</i>-1 of the <i>n</i> Forsaken alive know how to play then I think there would be a Speshul Reason for why the <i>n</i>th doesn't. And Speshul Reasons get hinted at sooner or later (in that very scene, for example).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-19 15:02:27
subject: <b>i voted yes</b>
body:
and something occurred to me that would perhaps bolster your argument.<br /><br />I remember a snippet of conversation between Rand and Taim where Taim showed distaste and disdain for the sword Rand always has at his hip, stating that it was a waste of effort and he could barely keep from stabbing himself in his own foot.<br /><br />Be'lal doesn't share this disdain, though. When he confronts Rand in the Stone in TDR, he recalls how he and Lews Therin took the sport of swords and made it deadly ... why would he change tunes if he's just been reborn?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-20 10:14:07
subject: <b>@Shishka; nine people LIVING...</b>
body:
I think the mistake you're making here, is assuming that Moridin is counting himself among the LIVING.<br />If anyone knows who's alive and who isn't, it's the Nae'Blis himself.<br /><br />&quot;Only nine people living even remembered the game. He had been a master of it.&quot;<br /><br />Only nine people who are still alive remember sha'rah [FULL STOP]. He HAD BEEN a master of it [when alive].<br /><br />Jordan didn't make a mistake; it was his hint that Moridin doesn't see himself as being alive enough to count.<br />Sadly, noone picked it up<br /><br />P.S: Agree with the theory; Taim is not Be'lal.<br /><br />Taim is dead; <br />Taim's body was used to transmigrate Ishamael. <br />(and that's the 'half' of it, literally)<br />You didn't honestly think RJ would put a new player on the board, now did ya?<br />Shaidar Haran and Moridin are one creature, like Isam &amp; Luc are Slayer. But this time, the creature has a mind alive enough to allow channeling. Muha!


created: 2008-11-20 19:06:11
subject: <b>I don't know about the Moridin considering himself dead comment</b>
body:
Maybe Moridin considers himself not living because his name means 'death?'  Possibly.  Jordan could have also made a mistake, as he occasionally does. I would probably think that Moridin thinks of himself as alive, however, because he has already dead once and he definitely isn't dead anymore.  <br /><br />Moridin is inhabiting Taim's old body?  That idea seems too complicated.  Why would the dark one use someone else to mimic Taim while he could just use compulsion on Taim himself?  Why would the DO use another channeler as Taim, and then put Moridin's soul in Taim's old body?  That doesn't make sense, because then he would be wasting Taim's soul and ability to channel.  <br /><br />Another reason why Taim's body was not used for Moridin:  Mazrim Taim is described as being almost as tall as Rand.  Moridin is described as being easily as tall as Rand.  Bashere would have noticed if Taim had suddenly shrunk they met again in LoC.  <br /><br />I highly doubt that Moridin and Shadar Haran are the same.  There are too many arguments for why they are not the same being.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-21 01:07:16
subject: <b>not so sure</b>
body:
Well i'm not necessarily a proponent of Taim equal Be'lal but i don't think Moridin can be said to have access to all the Dark One's secrets.  As the only Forsaken to die by balefire it's very possible that his punishment could be a severe diminishment in his Forsaken status.  Additionally most Forsaken who have died remained anonymous for quite a while.  A forsaken forced to be regular joe Darkfriend would never be in a position to lose that anonymity. His exclusion is his disguise.  To suggest Moridin has to know everything is to suggest that the Dark One trusts him without reservation which we know is impossible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-25 04:00:16
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Taim detests the sword, where as we know Be'lal was a Blademaster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 19:36:38
subject: <b>why count yourself...</b>
body:
Just throwing it out there that usually when people are thinking about how many other people know something, or have done something, they don't count themselves. Say I know who killed Asmo, and the total amount of people in the world who know is 10... I would say, &quot;only 9 people know about the death&quot;... considering yourself in that sentence would be pointless... therefore I believe that Bel'al might be alive... but is definitely not TAIM. Thank You


created: 2009-05-24 12:09:11
subject: <b>Nice read...</b>
body:
....but it is apparent that Taim is a DF by the end of KoD.  The only remaining questions:<br />a. always a DF or turned/crossed-over at some point?<br />b. one of the Forsaken reincarnated?  if so, when?<br />c. some other DF soul reincarnated or going all LTT in his head?<br /><br />After reading the more recent theories on the boards, and multiple comments, my opinion has changed.  At this point, I believe Taim = Be'lal.  Still uncertain as to when the soul placement occurred though.  <br /><br />{BOLD} Primary reasons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />/BOLD}<br />- Taim's sigil and colors at the BT <br />- his frequently cited comments, &quot;so-called Aiel,&quot; &quot;Let the LoC Rule.&quot;<br />- his recent behavior resembles the other Forsaken efforts; often contrary, self-serving orders to other DFs rather than blindly serving one of the other Forsaken (e.g. Alviarin/Mesaana)<br />- his orders to the dark-four to kill Rand<br />- freeing Rand at Dumai's Wells, killing the gholam, etc. all can be explained by a Forsaken facilitating the DO's efforts to turn the DR while maintaining his own schemes for greater power, shot at being NB<br />- the position Taim holds would be the most sought after position for the DO to place a minion, likely the only way the DO could build and train the necessary collection of new dreadlords without constant threat of attack on the &quot;nursery&quot;<br /><br />{BOLD}Counter-args to points in this post {/BOLD}<br />- prob been stated before, but Moridin has been proven not omniscient<br />- his comments re: sha'rah and the number of living people who remember it is too vague to use to absolutely determine the number of &quot;original-body-living forsaken&quot; + &quot;reincarnated, re-bodied, living-soul forsaken&quot;<br />- Semi explicitly stated she did not know how the game was played, so it stands to reason other forsaken might not know either - using that statement for calculation does not yield a reliable answer to the number of forsaken<br />- Moridin is still a piece on the board, a tool of the DO, not the DO himself, regardless of how many darkfools are placed under him for the time being<br />- the DO certainly has plans, pieces moving, other than those Moridin and the other Forsaken consciously know about (reveal to us) so Taim's failures-to-appear at the trendy gatherings of darkfool higher ups is not dispositive of anything<br />- same goes for the remove-the-taint scene; we have not been made privy to every DO plot/plan being executed in Randland so to ASSUME Moridin is truly ordering all of the DO plans involving existing Forsaken does not make sense, no matter what saa-face thinks/relates<br />- Taim's apparent disdain for the sword could be read in more than one fashion, if it was even an honest assessment:<br />   a.  power-wrought swords are much more effective than steel swords and Haslan cannot instruct in that<br />   b.  other saidin-weapons, (lightning, fireball, blast your head like a melon) are much more effective than any swords and Haslan cannot instruct in that<br />- or the statement could have been a lie to discourage Rand from having the soldiers learn the sword, because:<br />   a. it was time away from training with the dehumanizing, tainted saidin, or<br />   b. it was time spent keeping them connected to the outside world rather than more isolation or<br />   c. a time would come when the ability with the sword could prove truly useful; either for individual non-dark soldiers here and there, or collectively in particular circumstances/battles (near Shayol Ghul)<br /><br />- learning to successfully test for a potential saidin-channeler would be much more difficult than many on these boards seem to credit; considering the tiny portion of men who are born with either the spark or the ability to learn, how many men would Taim, a non-ta'veren, have to test in order to find just one?  No bs, how many men in 10,000 can learn or are born with the spark?  And considering the time it took Taim to determine Flinn could channel, how many times would he have had to attempt to learn the test before he not only perfected the weave, but also determined how long he would have to wait to get a response?  How many men would he have killed while perfecting the test - he certainly suggests to Rand that is possible if the test is not done correctly.<br />  So you have a guy randomly finding men who are willing to undergo the test in a land where that ability is a death sentence one way or another; a guy certainly failing to perfect the test for a while, killing some of the few willing participants along the way; having an actual percentage chance of success once the test is perfected at what, maybe .01%.  How long is it going to take him to find enough men to undergo the test to perfect it and find anyone else who can do it?


created: 2008-11-28 12:21:48
subject: <b>First Again!</b>
body:
Still don't understand the appeal.<br /><br />Anyways, I like this theory. It makes a lot of sense, and I like the way you've taken the slight hints, i.e., the shoddy logic, and the flinch, and presented them as evidence, with convincing arguments. I'm sure I would have picked up on that the next time I read the series, but for now, thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-30 15:25:31
subject: <b>I like this theory too</b>
body:
I have been looking at this issue closely for the past few weeks trying to prepare what would happen next in the Black Ajah purge.  Currently, the Black Ajah purge is at a stalemate as the sisters involved have no more leads inside the white tower.  Most of the black ajah that we currently know of has been exposed except for a couple exceptions such as Alviarin and Katerine. I keep wondering who will be discovered next.  Velina is as good a possibility as any.  Given that Yukiri, Pevara, and a couple other of the black ajah purgers are also sitters-- they may begin to look more closely at their fellow sitters now that they are at a dead end.  <br /><br />I recently reread PoD, and I also thought her logic to Elaida was quite absurd.  The Seanchan have taken over several countries now, and Velina is still trying to deny their existence to Elaida?  Only Elaida would be dumb enough to believe that.    <br /><br />Also recall that Talene is a black Sitter.  The existence of two black sitters may have completely allowed for the black tower schism.  But my question is, what happens when the knowledge of the black sitters becomes public knowledge?  Does every action they took become nullified?  Elaida may be on shaky ground with the whole black ajah purge.<br /><br />There still isn't anything conclusive for your theory, but it is a lot of great hints.  I'm glad you wrote it.  <br /><br />The reason Velina may have flinched around Alviarin may have just been something internal issues inside the white Ajah.<br /><br />However, I think your most compelling argument is the faulty logic and the Sitter's vote to depose Elaida.  Talene and Velina would have been enough to wreak havoc on the vote and sow the chaos on the tower that the shadow desired.  Other sitters could have been black but RJ never gave us any hints about them (as far as I know).  <br /><br />I made a list of everyone involved in the vote below:<br /><br />Red Ajah<br />Pevara Tazanovni- not black<br />Teslyn Baradon- no indication that she is black, she <br />     probably is not black given the note she wrote to Mat<br />Elaida do'Avriny a Roihan- not black<br /><br />Green Ajah<br />Talene Minly- black<br />Rubinde- I don't think she is black because she supports  <br />    Adelorna's decisions and Alviarin had Adelorna punished.<br /><br />Gray Ajah<br />Yukiri- not black<br />Evanellein- we barely know anything about her<br /><br />White Ajah<br />Velina- she is now on my radar<br /><br />Brown Ajah<br />Saerin Asnobar-not black <br /><br />Yellow Ajah<br />Doesine Alwain- not black<br />Sedore- we don't know much about her<br /><br />I think that if there were other black sitters that would have to have voted in favor of deposing Siuan.  Given this, that leaves us with Sedore, Evanellein, Rubinde, Velina, and Teslyn.  I don't think Teslyn is black and RJ has barely said two words about Sedore, Evanellein, and Rubinde.<br /><br />Therefore, if a another sitter is black, my vote would definitely be for Velina.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-30 18:57:42
subject: <b>I was doing a similar analysis...</b>
body:
...but with the other  current Sitters in the Tower included, just because Alviarin may have been referring to some of the newer Sitters. I think it less likely, unless they happened to pick a Black sister purely by accident. But I'll not go into that right now. <br /><br />I think Rubinde less likely because there is already a Black Sitter among the Greens. Two would just be unlucky, and it would be hard to see how Talene would fail to spot that another Green Sitter might be Black.<br /><br />I also think Evenellein less likely because, when Yukiri mentions about the Grey getting word from Akoure Vayet (who was among the captured party sent to the Black Tower), she was 'all for pulling Elaida down'. A Black Sister wouldn't want to pull Elaida down and risk the Tower being unified again.<br /><br />Sedore, who knows? But Velina also makes sense because Elaida needed that single White vote. Maybe Alviarin could have persuaded a White to vote if she knew she would be picked as Keeper, however. <br /><br />One other comment based on your reply - I don't think that Alviarin would have gotten a flinch because of internal White politics. Firstly, because of the whole 'normally the most self-possessed woman in the Tower' comment and, secondly, because Velina is still a Sitter and doesn't have to answer to Alviarin at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-11-30 18:58:06
subject: <b>What I was trying to say above</b>
body:
What I was trying to say above is that if there were black sitters before the tower coup then they would almost certainly have voted to have Siuan deposed (unless they were blue Ajah black sisters).  The shadow very clearly wanted the tower to split.  <br /><br />Based on the list I wrote in the post above, we can analyze the list of sitters that stood to depose Siuan.  Out of this, we know that Talene was black ajah.  But could there be another?  Many of the sitters on that list were black ajah hunters, and a couple other ones were random Aes Sedai we have barely ever heard of.  Teslyn was on this, but she also doesn't fit the criteria of a black ajah person very well.  Velina, on that list, is the only other real suspect for a black sitter at this point (besides Talene).<br /><br />I'd imagine that we could also analyze the list of supporters of Siuan and deduce that they are most likely not black ajah.  (unless they are in blue ajah, because the blue ajah would never have supported deposing Siuan).   <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-30 19:23:14
subject: <b>prior sitters</b>
body:
I haven't looked extensively at the new sitters, but based on the sitters at the time of the split I will make some predictions on which ones are not black ajah:<br /><br />Browns:  Janya and Takima<br />Grays:  Varillin<br />Greens:  Faiselle<br />Whites:  Saroiya (I would say Saroiya is definitely not black or Alviarin might have had her under her wing)<br />Yellow:  Magla<br /><br />We can't make predictions about the blue sitters (Lelaine, Lyrelle, and unknown sitter) because they would have been expected to support Siuan not pull her down.   <br /><br />Anyways, I have always wondered what percentage of the tower the black ajah really is.  Could they be as high as 10%?  Based on what we have seen so far, I was thinking 5% infilitration might be a better number.  5% could cause an incredible amount of damage in the tower, especially if they found themselves into positions of power.  How many more black sisters need to be pulled down?<br /><br />You are probably right about the look between Alviarin and Velina not being internal White Ajah politics, but if it is not it seems like a very big hint that Velina is black ajah.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-30 21:25:26
subject: <b>Yeah, I agree..</b>
body:
...if any Sitters other than Talene were Black, Alviarin would have suggested them to Elaida in having them included in the vote. <br /><br />I've always thought that 10% might be a bit high. I've debated this a couple of times with Linda. It could certainly be as low as 5%, I agree. Linda used a few numbers that i would question - using proportions with so little data doesn't give accurate results. <br /><br />http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=101398<br /><br />It doesn't have to be a low number, certainly, but there is nothing restricting it to over 100 Aes Sedai either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-12-01 16:45:07
subject: <b>I've alwasy suspected Velina</b>
body:
I've always thought she was likely black, so you get my vote for a good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-12-07 18:42:43
subject: <b>Just one point.</b>
body:
I find your theory interesting and well done.  just a nit pick about this bit.<br /><br />&quot;Misinforming Elaida seems to a matter of course for Alviarin, so why not for Velina? Shevan, a Brown, finds Velina's conclusions ridiculous and I think so too. What's more, she also believes that the Prophet is a tool of Rand...&quot;<br /><br />If she is Black she can lie.  She does not have to believe that The Prophet is a tool of Rand to state that opinion.  <br /><br />If she is Black it is possible that she knows the purpose of The Prophet from the Shadow side and is just lying to Shevan.<br /><br />It still makes her Black.  Just a reminder that the Black Ajah does not have to tell the truth the way regular Aes Sedai do.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-08 14:44:03
subject: <b>Black and Lies</b>
body:
To darkeye:<br /><br />&quot;Just a reminder that the Black Ajah does not have to tell the truth the way regular Aes Sedai do.&quot;<br /><br />Regular Aes Sedai tell the truth? I know they can't lie, but that doesn't mean they have to tell the truth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-06-25 12:53:52
subject: <b>Agreed with the OP</b>
body:
Nicely reasoned analysis of the as yet to be conclulsively revealed BA Tower Sitter and I heartily agree with the conclusion.  Definitely makes sense for Alviarin to have approached a well-placed BA posing as a Sitter from her own false Ajah when Elaida first broached the subject of deposing Siuan.  With Galina running the Red at the time, the Reds' views on male channelers and the historical Blue vs. Red battles, little surprise the Red Sitters would stand for the coup. <br /><br />Pulling in a Sitter from another Ajah would have been delicate work at best without foreknowledge of cooperation.  Once Elaida approached Alviarin (maybe with a little encouragement from Mesaana), Alvi would only be able to assure her Sitter's support in the Hall if that Sitter were BA.


created: 2008-12-10 13:29:53
subject: <b>Definitely plausible</b>
body:
However, I would be very careful to base a conclusion on one isolated quote (which, without corroborating evidence, could just be a slip of tongue), and discussions that probably happened but there's little to no reference to them in the text (as far as I remember, anyway).<br /><br />Now that I think of it, don't the Forsaken refer to all kinds of cutting someone off with the <i>same</i> word? I think that adds a lot of plausibility to the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 13:59:43
subject: <b>Definitely not a slip of the tongue</b>
body:
Egwene knows full well the difference between stilling and burning out.  Novices don't get stilled, they burn themselves out.  I think this quote is the best quote in WoT on the subject.  I would welcome any of the Forsaken references that you speak of, however.  Everyone assumes that a burned out channeler can't be healed, but there just isn't a lot of evidence for that.  <br /><br />With Egwene's quote, RJ at least gave us the possibility that a burned out channeler can be healed.  Until I see other quotations to the contrary (there aren't any that I could find), I have to assume that a burned out channeler can be healed same as a stilled one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 14:44:24
subject: <b>Don't see anything to rule it out...</b>
body:
..I've seen this theorised about before, and there isn't a clear conclusion. I remember reading Egwene's comments, but never really considered them.<br /><br />It is possible that Jordan could have put that comment in to suggest that Healing burning out isn't impossible. It would actually be kind of cool if Setalle Anan could be Healed.<br /><br />The problem with being Stilled/burned out and Healed is the lack of strength. The Aes Sedai hierarchy means that and novices or Accepted that are Healed will end up serving tea for the real sisters. But that knowledge is forbidden to anyone not Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 14:55:15
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
I had never seen this discussed before so I posted it here.<br /><br />If Setalle was healed by Damer she would most likely be full strength.  With Aes Sedai and Asha'man working together, healing a stilled person should no longer drop the healed person in status or one power strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 15:30:13
subject: <b>Burned out channelers</b>
body:
I have been working on a theory of my own regarding this, but since you posted it already I will just add on. <br /><br />We know from reading that a male channeler needs to do the healing for a female to be fully restored after being stilled and the opposite for a male channeler.<br /><br />My thoery is that for a &quot;burned out&quot; victim they would require both male and female channelers linked using both saidin and saider to heal it. This would seem to make sense, especially if it is more difficult to heal


created: 2008-12-10 15:48:43
subject: <b>To Brett</b>
body:
I again with you that a channeler of the opposite sex may be needed to cure someone that has been burned out.  A mixed circle may also be needed for someone who has been burned out.  We don't really have a lot of evidence to support our assertions, but I think that the point that Nynaeve left Siuan at may be the point where a channeler would need to start in order to heal someone that has been burned out.  Only a male was able to reconstruct that void.  Therefore if someone healed Setalle it would mostly likely be Damer.  Saidar may also be needed to reconstruct that channelers conduit to the one power.  <br /><br />Just like the male Forsaken had their own chords feeding them pure saidin, maybe all channelers have their own chords that feed directly to the one power?  I will be very interesting to see if we learn anything more about this in AMoL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 16:04:16
subject: <b>I am, frankly, unconvinced.</b>
body:
Basically, your argument rests on the assumptions of the same people who 'knew' that stilling couldn't be Healed in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 17:17:08
subject: <b>Based off of false assumptions</b>
body:
I think that Egwene merely means that novices won't be able to see the difference between stilling and burning out, not that there is none.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Foil fencers dance the Spears<br /><br />En Allein Mandarb<br /><i>&quot;Do whatever floats your boat, because if you don't, then your boat doesn't float, and it sinks and you die&quot;</i><br />Robert Jordan ain inde niende dyu moridin<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 19:05:20
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I don't believe they will be able to heal someone who has been burned out.  Healing a stilled person is possible because there is a wound.  When Nynaeve healed Logain I remember her saying, 'there was something there that was cut'.  She healed it by channeling to bridge the cut so in effect she healed the cut and once it (the cut) was removed, the person could channel again.  Someone who is burned out is the same as a person who couldn't ever channel at all.  I believe that a channeler could look around inside their head all they want, but won't find anything there to heal.  <br /><br />It is the same thing with Nynaeve being able to heal all manner of wounds, but can't regrow Rand's hand.  If his hand had only been half cut off, she could have healed it.  But it was torn completely off and probably burned up completely in the ball of fire.


created: 2008-12-10 21:25:49
subject: <b>interesting but...</b>
body:
when setalle anan puts on the adam connected to joline (cant remember which book, # 8 i think), setalle cant feel anything. from what i remember joline also falls on the ground screaming when they try to walk together while joined. siuan and leanne can both sense moghedian through the adam when they are stilled and they can control her through it. this doesnt discount yr theory outright but im curious as to yr explanation: how does this fit in with yr theory? to me it implies that being burned out completely destroys the &quot;mechanism&quot; by which channelers access the one power; as opposed to stilling which only &quot;disconnects&quot; this mechanism. what do u think?


created: 2008-12-10 22:23:19
subject: <b>Good ideas</b>
body:
I think its a good idea and one that would be interesting to see if something new is brought up in AMoL, however I also have to agree with the last two posts. I had theorized this a while ago as ewll but then i reread the series and came across the part where Mat put the a'dam on Joline and remembered that Siuan was able to control Marigan but Setalle had no connection with the a'dam on. It would be cool though if there was someway using both saidar and saidin to rebuild the connection that would allow for the person to access that what connects them to the power. I voted yes on this theory only because i remembered that Channeling is GENETIC. If its in the persons DNA then there just possibly may be a way to rebuild that bridge. Would be cool to see Setalle channel again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-10 23:59:17
subject: <b>About the A'dam</b>
body:
I can easily answer the a'dam question.  If burned out channelers cannot sense the source then obviously they won't be able to work with the a'dam either.  Burning out is different than stilling.  Somehow their conduit to the one power has been mangled in such a way that they can't feel the one power anymore.  But with 'reconstructive' surgery, I think that this condition can be fixed.  The procedure won't be the say, just more complicated.  And as I mentioned above, it may take a channeler of the opposite sex or a mixed circle to fix the problem.  <br /><br />As for the missing hand argument, I am going to have to completely disagree.  We don't know enough about the connection to the 'One Power' to know what is missing-- I actually don't think anything is missing at all-- just mangled.  We cannot directly compare an anatomical structure such as a hand to a more energetic structure such as the connection to the source.  Therefore I don't think that argument is valid unless we have more supportive information.<br /><br />I want to throw another argument at everyone.  If the ability to channel the one power is attached to the soul, then what would happen if a burned out channel was reborn?  They would most likely get their ability to channel back.  The ability to channel has more to do with the soul and with energetic properties such as Earth, Air, Spirit, etc. than anatomical structures in my opinion.  I think that these energetic properties could be more fully reconstructed than something such as a severed hand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-11 00:05:43
subject: <b>To Kronin</b>
body:
I think Egwene's intentions in this quote are pretty clear.  If she was worried that the novices couldn't distinguish stilling from being burned out, her POV does not indicate that.  It would be easy to instruct the novices in the fact that burning out is different from stilling, and no one has healed a burned out channeler yet.  Egwene does not have any thought like this.<br /><br />&quot;It was harder to make a novice go slowly when you could not point out that she risked ending her quest for the shawl by burning herself out and losing the One Power forever&quot;<br /><br />Egwene thinks she can no longer point out that a burned out channeler can't be healed.  The reason she thinks this is because she believes burned out channelers can be healed.  I think this is straight logic.  <br /><br />Obviously Egwene could have a flawed belief, but this is the most significant information we have on this subject to date in the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-11 00:10:24
subject: <b>To Fanatic</b>
body:
&quot;Basically, your argument rests on the assumptions of the same people who 'knew' that stilling couldn't be Healed in the first place.&quot;<br /><br />I see what you are saying-- that Aes Sedai are not always correct in their viewpoints. That said, once Nynaeve released the weave to heal stilling to the Aes Sedai a Yellow sister could have reasoned out a way to heal a burned out sister as well.  I think RJ was giving us a hint with this POV more than anything else.  <br /><br />Egwene could be flawed, as I said in my theory.  But I think Aes Sedai are aware that there is a difference between stilling and burning out even if they don't usually associate with sisters who have lost their ability in the past.  I would imagine many a Yellow sister, in the past, has tried to look at the issue at least superficially.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RIP Wotmania.  I'll miss you.  <br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO how the new site will be!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-11 08:13:38
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
<i>&quot;Novices don't get stilled, they burn themselves out.&quot;</i><br /><br />That's a good point. As others have said, though, there are still too many unknowns in the equation, and we have seen ample evidence in WoT that what a character thinks is true and what actually is true are often miles apart.<br /><br /><i>&quot;I would welcome any of the Forsaken references that you speak of, however.&quot;</i><br /><br />If only I had the books with me and had an idea <i>where</i> a Forsaken refers to this... I believe the word they use is &quot;severing&quot;, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-11 12:43:42
subject: <b>Thank you for keeping the Theory Post alive</b>
body:
With a year till the next book it is nice to have something in Theory post land.<br /><br />with Setalle Anan as the central figure in this theory am intersted in knowing where you stand on her aging process and if that is currently affected by her previous connection to the source or if you belive that she is aging like any other non channeling person.<br /><br />the clearest post I could find about her timeline was by Squall Thrawn in 2001<br /><br />&quot;In the Path of Daggers, Vandene mentions a certain sister who burned herself out, a Martine Janata..... [TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 73-74] &quot;She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal...She did it for forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl... <br /><br />1.Setalle gave birth to her first child more than twenty years ago. [ACoS 24:The Kin, 405] <br /><br />2. Martine Janata was burned out more than twenty-five years ago and left the Tower.<br /><br />3. Martine Janata was raised to the shawl over sixty-five years ago.<br /><br />4. Garenia aka Zarya Alkaese ran away from the Tower seventy years ago... <br /><br />So Martine was made a sister well over sixty-five years ago. Garenia ran away seventy years ago. Setalle recognized Garenia as Zarya though she certainly never considered Garenia to be Zarya.&quot;<br /><br />the FAQ on Channelers places Garenia around 90<br /><br />&quot;Zarya/Garenia &#8211; b. 902-910 NE, 90-98 <br />Zarya left the Tower 70 years ago (A Crown of Swords, Next Door To A Weaver). She was a novice with Careane for 2 years (The Path of Daggers, Crimsonthorn). She is now more than 90 years old (Winter&#8217;s Heart, With Sea Folk And Kin).&quot;<br /><br /> <br />So she had the slowing for 40 years while under the shawl and however long she was Novice and Accepted (average 10 years each) but aged normally from birth to about 15 when most girls go to the tower.<br /><br />so general estimate is 60 years of channeling/slowing for Setalle Anan then burning out.  25 years of not channeling. (if we go with the planted idea that she is Martine Janata)<br /><br />So how old did she adjust to when she was burned out and how has she been aging since?  Did she hit her mid 20s physically and then has just aged to around 50 or is she still getting older just a touch slower than most people but not as slow as a channeler?<br /><br />Would this indicate that she could be healed?  <br /><br />I am interested in where your theory stands on this.  <br /><br />I agree that if it is possible it would probably have to be a joint effort of male and female channelers.<br /><br />thank you for keeping the Theory post interesting.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-11 22:42:22
subject: <b>Maybe, but...</b>
body:
As a couple of posters have mentioned already, the reaction associated with connecting a burned out woman (e.g., Setalle Anan) to an active channeler (e.g., Joline) using an a'dam are markedly different from the reaction that takes place when a stilled/severed channeler (e.g., Siuan) is connected to an active channeler (e.g., Moghedien).  It's hard to say exactly what this means, but my impression is that the former situation is similar to a male channeler putting on an a'dam.  It's not identical -- based on how Halima reacts to just touching Moghedien's a'dam -- but similar. <br /><br />My take is that this points to some fundamental difference between being burned out and being severed.  This doesn't mean that burned out channelers cannot be healed in some way, but I think it is suggestive of the difficulty involved.  In fact, it may not be similar to healing a severed channeler at all. <br /><br />Also, it is possible that the Forsaken don't make this distinction because being burned out was even more rare than being severed in their time.  We need to remember that the AOL was an age rule by channelers and their knowledge of channeling -- notwithstanding the holes in this knowledge that are now apparent -- was far greater than the average current Aes Sedai's.  In other words, the dangers were so well known that no one (or very, very few) would ever put themselves in a position to be burned out.  The possibility of being burned out by a malfunctioning/inproperly operated ter'angreal would have been far lower as well since it would appear that the functions and operating instructions of each ter'angreal would be known.  AOL channelers simply may not know the difference between stilling/severing and being burned out. <br /><br />So...an interesting theory, but I'm not quite sold.  It seems to me that Egwene's POV could just as easily be yet another example of Aes Sedai misunderstanding/ignorance as it could be a hint of possibilities to come.  That said, we all know how subtle RJ likes to be when offering these hints, so I can't discount the possibility completely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-15 16:05:11
subject: <b>Whatever the plot requires</b>
body:
I think the quote from Egwene is pretty strong evidence that RJ was planning to have &quot;burned out&quot; be a fixable condition at some point.  It wouldn't be any stranger than having him declare for numerous books that healing stilled people was impossible, then deciding he needed to do it, so making it possible.<br /><br />In fact, I think that there is a reasonably good chance that death gets Healed at some point in AMoL.  RJ always paired up the things that everyone knew couldn't be Healed -- death and stilling -- and made a big deal out of Rand trying to Heal the dead girl in the Stone.  Stilling's been done now.  Why not death?<br /><br />In the grand tradition of plot necessity, though, isn't it almost necessary for burning out to still remain non-Healable?  I base this mainly on RJ's apparent (though inexplicable) fondness for Egwene as a character and the Aes Sedai as a group.  Egwene thinks &quot;Gee, it will be hard to control novices from going too fast when the threat of burning out isn't there.&quot;  But why should there be any concern with them going &quot;too fast&quot; if burning out CAN be Healed?  In that case, novices SHOULD be allowed to go as fast as they want, since burning themselves out would be just a minor irritation, easily remedied, like Galad getting a concussion during his weapons training with Mat.  There would no longer be any justification for having any type of control over novices.  There would be no real justification for &quot;slow and steady&quot; training.  There would be much less justification for the White Tower training channelers at all, other than what is necessary to avoid destruction to new channelers' surroundings.  <br /><br />To my mind, good!  The Aes Sedai are an ossified group of harpies anyway, with Egwene being wise beyond her years in the ways of ossification and harpydom.  But RJ seems to be bizarrely fond of Egwene, and the Aes Sedai, so it would be odd for him to introduce a possibility (Healing burned-out channelers) that would make the White Tower's training obsolete.  But RJ may not have seen it this way, or may not have thought through the implications, in which case his apparent statement (through Egwene) that burned-out was Healable would make more sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-17 09:19:34
subject: <b>Burning out is not the only risk</b>
body:
<i>&quot;But why should there be any concern with them going &quot;too fast&quot; if burning out CAN be Healed?&quot;</i> <br /><br />Can't they <i>kill</i> themselves too? <br /><br />If someone heals death in AMoL, that'll be the moment I officially leave WoT fandom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-19 17:18:14
subject: <b>False</b>
body:
The whole reason why a stilled Sister can be healed is the nodule of fire that Nynaeve found. That nodule was created by the Power in the stilling in order to cut the Sister off from Saidar.  When a woman burns herself out, there would be no Power-wrought buffer between the woman and the Power, so nothing is there to be healed.


created: 2008-12-22 14:21:22
subject: <b>I guess Lews Therin killed himself.</b>
body:
&quot;Can't they kill themselves too?&quot;<br /><br />Honestly, I can't remember if this is ever described in the books.  I thought burning out was the main problem with novices who knew how to touch the Source but didn't know much about channeling.  I thought being killed was more a problem with people channeling for the first time (wilders like Nynaeve) without guidance.  But then, as my subject line alludes to, Lews Therin apparently killed himself by drawing too much saidin.  I just thought that was a deliberate choice, not an accident.<br /><br />If it's correct that death is more a problem for wilders than novices -- though I'm not 100% sure that's true -- then once you've taught a novice how to touch the source, the only remaining danger would be burning out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-02 06:08:25
subject: <b>The Difference Between Stilling and Burned Out</b>
body:
I wrote on this same theory awhile back. I think I can clarify a fundamental difference between Stilling and being Burned Out. Lets view the Human body as a living computer (Sorry... it's my inner Geek). <br /><br />In the computer you have a CPU, Motherboard, Memory, Power Supply, Video Card, Audio Card, Keyboard, Mouse &amp; Monitor (there's more, but lets just stick to this for now). Lets make a line by line comparison of the parts.<br /><br />Motherboard       =   the physical body<br />CPU               =   the processing power of the brain<br />Memory            =   the memory of the brain<br />Power Supply      =   Digestive System<br />Video Card        =   in this case it's more an input with the eyes<br />Audio Card        =   also an input with the ears<br />Keyboard &amp; Mouse  =   interactive parts... touch, smell, taste<br />Monitor           =   The outside world<br /><br />There is one part missing here though... every single one of us reading this has to have a connection to the internet!! And in this case, the internet is the True Source!<br /><br />When someone is Stilled, it would be like the Network Card being turned off or dissabeled. Your monitor would still show that a connection was availible, but there are connection issues (Windows probably!!). When a person is Healed, that connection is reestablished.<br /><br />But... when a person is Burned Out, the Network Card is destroyed and all connection to the internet is severed with no way to see if the internet still exists in the world. <br /><br />Here's what I think and wrote in the past:<br /><br />1) In order for a Male to be Healed from Stilling a Female must do it for him to have Full Power regained. <br /><br />2) In order for a Female to be Healed from Stilling a Male must do it for her to have Full Power regained.<br /><br />3) In order to Healed from being Burned Out, both Male &amp; Female MUST use both sides of the One Power. How strong it has to be is still up in the air, but I would figure it would have to be a lot. In doing so, they reconstruct a completely NEW Network Card and allow the user to get back on the Net a.k.a. the True Source.


created: 2009-01-03 13:38:08
subject: <b>Not sure I agree</b>
body:
<br />Doesn't it say somewhere that a burned out channeler can't even sense the source? Whereas a Stilled one can sense it, just not touch? That would be consistent with the Setalle-Joline a'dam experiment, and with the testing of sul'dam generally; the ability to sense the source is enough to feel through the a'dam, but it takes an act of active channeling to do anything with it. Well, not active channeling, as such, sul'dam don't glow, but maybe something similar to putting yourself on the brink of embracing the Source. <br /><br />And also - burning out and stilling might have similar effects, but they're completely different things. Stilling is the use of a weave to cut. It's external. And burning out is more like an overload, and internal. <br /><br />None of this *proves* that burning out can't be cured, but if it can, it's going to need a different weave entirely than the one used to cure Stilling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- Order burns to clear his path --</font><p></p>


created: 2008-12-26 09:32:31
subject: <b>Fantastic effort</b>
body:
Whew! What a read. I am going to have to read it again tomorrow before I vote or comment further. My first reaction is to completely reject your theory but at 2:00am I think that maybe I owe it to you after such an enormous effort to at least read it when I am totally awake and give you a considered opinion.<br /><br />Again well done for all the effort you have put in.


created: 2008-12-26 18:31:07
subject: <b>Lots of work</b>
body:
Yeah, it was a bit of work. I had to rearrange some stuff several times to get something resembling flow. I still wasn't completely happy with it when I posted, it but threw it up there anyway.  I can't say that I actually believe the whole thing, but the idea has a compelling amount of internal consistency to it that I found disturbing, which is why I put it up for others to read and comment on. Hope it's an eye-opener.<br /><br />Just for the record, though, if it's right, I get first claim.<br /><br />LOL!


created: 2008-12-26 22:03:23
subject: <b>Okay, I've re-read it</b>
body:
And I am going to give it a thumbs-down. I am sorry to say that it held less weight for me the second time round though that may have been because I was already keyed to look out for those sections I thought were particularly weak or tenuous.<br /><br />I have to say that your theory by-and-large has a great deal of internal consistency by fails to be convincing. However I would consider it marginally plausible if we have Chosen POV's that iterated their therapeutic role. We don't have these and therefore despite the one-sided consistency there is no corroboration.<br /><br />The only thing I would without hesitation agree with is that the Chosen are not as bad as the propaganda would have you believe.


created: 2008-12-27 22:41:56
subject: <b>Interesting hypothesis...</b>
body:
I do find your postulation very different and interesting.  Setting aside the fact that there will be a lot of very, very disillusioned (pun intended) WOT readers if this does turn out to be correct, there are way too many characters and plots in this story for even the most deranged mind to cobble together. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Even if LTT truly does live in denialville, there's no way that he could continue to exist in such a frenetic world without slipping into a catatonic and eventually downward spiral towards death.  The impact of such guilt-ridden thoughts would kill even the strongest person.  <br /><br />Ultimately, I hate the idea of a &quot;St. Elsewhere's&quot; ending to this story... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-12-29 06:46:34
subject: <b>Oh maya</b>
body:
You made me laugh aloud:<br /><br />&quot;there are way too many characters and plots in this story for even the most deranged mind to cobble together.&quot;<br /><br />Yes indeed the late Robert Jordan's mind must have been truly, monumentally, extraordinarily deranged for he was able to cobble together all these characters and plots.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-12-29 06:49:38
subject: <b>Oh sorry</b>
body:
I should have added to make sure that you were aware that I am not having a go at you, nor do I believe that it was your intent to disparage the late RJ. That was entirely me and my off kilter sense of humour at work.


created: 2008-12-29 11:20:47
subject: <b>Maya: You almost make my point</b>
body:
Maya said: &quot;...there are way too many characters and plots in this story for even the most deranged mind to cobble together.&quot;<br /><br />As I stipulated in the theory, the &quot;treatment team&quot; might have created a &quot;virtual reality&quot; they're playing him through as part of his treatment. They might well have the people and resources available to do so.<br /><br />&quot;...there's no way that he could continue to exist in such a frenetic world without slipping into a catatonic and eventually downward spiral towards death. The impact of such guilt-ridden thoughts would kill even the strongest person.&quot;<br /> <br />Which might be the exact reason they're doing what they're doing.<br /><br />You almost make my case for me.<br />Thanks<br />


created: 2009-01-01 14:57:03
subject: <b>cant see it?</b>
body:
I highly doubt that RJ was trying to turn his book into one big intervention.The fact that you base your theary on what you read in your colledge phyce book is kind of funny[what? did you have a test on that crap the week you wrote the theary?]The good and bad in the world is a very real thing in the world ,as are the the peaple,time is real as are the the threads of time not that you did not make  some good points,BUT,lets face it the forsaken are all about power and will do anithing to get it,lie betray kill and it makes no differrence who gets in there way.They view Rand as obsticle another stepping stone to become NB and nothing else .<br />     I am sure that RJ has  something awsome in mind,lets hope that it isnt the harry potter ending.But listen ,we akll have a dark side and have to deal with it on the day to day and the fact that Rand hears the voice and knows it isnt normal throws delusion out the window.TAR is not the dark lords prison and the seals are not the seven stages that you speak of.So try to keep your head in the wot and out of the comunity colledge class room,LOL.All in All though it certainly is a interesting theary and you are a very smart guy ,but you are dreaming .STay out of TAR dude you dream to much.


created: 2009-01-01 22:37:37
subject: <b>To MickeyDee and Owyn Reborn</b>
body:
Oh dear, I should clarify my original comment from a few days back. I'm referring specifically to the ability of an unbalanced person's mind to hold more than a few thoughts coherently and consistently at any given time, hence my reference to a &quot;deranged mind&quot; in the original comment.  <br /><br />The great, late RJ would definitely not fit the above category!  My bad for not being clearer.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-01-02 07:04:29
subject: <b>ahh.. no</b>
body:
Sorry, but I voted no for this one. It's the same idea a lot of people had for the ending of the Matrix Trilogy and we know how that turned out. I know RJ has a great deal of irony in his writing, but this is beneath him on so many levels. Plus, we already have proff it's not. <br /><br />We know that the current Age is the Third Age. In The Shadow Rising it ends with a quote, as most do.<br /><br />  &quot;And when the blood was sprinkled on ground where nothing could grow, the Childeren of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake the world with battle.&quot;<br /><br />    -from The Wheel of Time by Sulamein so Bhagad Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun, the Fourth Age<br /><br />   Since it is currently the Third Age and this comes from the Fourth Age we have to conclude that RJ has already decided it's not in LTT's head.


created: 2009-01-02 13:05:06
subject: <b>What would be the point?</b>
body:
If the theory is true, what is the point of 12 massive volumes?  The conclusion of the story would be far too small &amp; weak to support such a massive telling if this is right.  It would never be re-read; and I'm sure that RJ wanted his major work to be read and re-read for a long time.<br /><br />I do appreciate all the work you put into this theory though. One technical suggestion would be to use a grammar checker to make it easier to read. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-01-02 14:56:02
subject: <b>Focus a little</b>
body:
Fain said:<br /><br />&quot;The fact that you base your theary on what you read in your colledge phyce book is kind of funny [what? did you have a test on that crap the week you wrote the theary]?&quot;<br /><br />and<br /><br />&quot;So try to keep your head in the wot and out of the comunity colledge class room,LOL.&quot;<br /><br />FYI, I'm 51 years old and haven't taken a &quot;psych&quot; class in over 30 years (maybe before you were even born). The idea was thrown out there because it was <u>different</u>, not because I thought it was absolute fact; it was an angle no one else seemed to have addressed yet, and I thought it might be interesting to stir up some discussion -- I had no idea it would generate an <i>ad hominem</i> personal attack from an O.C.D. microcephalic who can't spell his way out of wet paper bag. Is this your usual method of discounting another's idea you don't agree with? At least the others have some substance to their objections other than just saying, &quot;That ain't the way 'tis Bucko, and <i>everybody</i> knows it, so there!&quot;.<br /><br />I've already stipulated that even I have doubts about whether it's a &quot;true&quot; picture of what's going on. It's just an idea... how about cutting some slack?<br /><br />


created: 2009-01-02 20:04:40
subject: <b>To MickeyDee</b>
body:
Your statement:<br /><br /><b>&quot;The only thing I would without hesitation agree with is that the Chosen are not as bad as the propaganda would have you believe.&quot;</b><br /><br />is way off. They are a collection of the most evil people who have committed atrocities like no other. Read the BWB's entries on each. The things they did during the War of Power were pretty bad.<br /><br />Unless you meant that they aren't as all powerful as the propaganda says, then you may have an argument.<br /><br />And as for the theory, boy. I don't know. It's a good one, I'll thumbs up it for that, but I don't agree. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;<i>And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed, who can't believe the emperor is dressed.</i>&quot;~Fastball<br /><br /><b><font color="#FF0000">1</font></b></font>-7-1<br /><br /><i>W!</i><br /><p></p>


created: 2009-01-03 11:48:28
subject: <b>The most evil people ...</b>
body:
Gher...<br />I think people are still missing the essence of my idea --<br /><br /><b>IF</b> the whole Wheel idea is just a psychotic delusion....<br /><br />and<br /><br /><b>IF</b> the concept of the Forsaken is LTT's demented view of them...<br /><br /><i>THEN</i> the whole picture WE see (being from LTT's POV) is very well wrong; they're not the evil people HE thinks they are.<br /><br />Naturally, if the postulate of the whole story being our view of LTT's dementia is incorrect, then the Forsaken are very likely the most evil people who ever lived (short of the DO [and maybe Fain]) and deserve every bit of comeuppance they get -- maybe even more.<br /><br />But there's a lot of denial about the validity of the concept not the position of the Forsaken otherwise if it's right.<br /><br />I just wanted people to examine the idea, not get into arguments over it.<br /><br />If it has some merit, does everything else within it follow?<br />If not, no big deal, it was just an idea.<br /><br />sheesh...<br />


created: 2009-01-07 00:02:45
subject: <b>Oh, well yeah.</b>
body:
If your theory is right, then no, they are just regular people. But, as awesome a theory as it is, I don't agree. So they're horrible people <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br />RJ said that there was nothing special about this turning of the wheel. So I guess you could argue that they do this virtual reality thing to multiple people, but no, I disagree with the theory. But it is an interesting idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;<i>And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed, who can't believe the emperor is dressed.</i>&quot;~Fastball<br /><br /><b><font color="#FF0000">1</font></b></font>-7-1<br /><br /><i>W!</i><br /><p></p>


created: 2009-01-09 02:59:00
subject: <b>well thought out</b>
body:
I also voted no but simply because I would hate to see the series end that way. I am still steamed with Stephen King and the end to The Dark Tower series, but I meander. I thought your theory was very well thought out and a pleasure to read.  Its great to read something different and original. Your parrallels are all there (the prologue stages of illness) and your view of the forsaken as benevolent healers great.  <br /><br />better stay out of those coledge classrooms! lol <br /><br />


created: 2009-01-09 12:52:05
subject: <b>great theory but i disagree</b>
body:
I must admit that was an incredibly in depth theory that was well explained, but it just doesn't have the right feel for the WOT series. The struggle has been primarily with Rand and the other Emond Fielder's, and I don't find it likely that LTT would have such delusions that he himself is Reborn in a young boy who transforms mind body, and soul. It did have a lot of great ideas, but my gut tells me that the story and plot stick with the main characters and wouldn't drastically flip the WOT world as we know it in the last chapter or so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-22 16:16:12
subject: <b>good effort but no</b>
body:
RJ could not possibly think this is a good ending (i may eat my words), that would mean the whole series is for nothing. Rand has to win, otherwise everyone is going to burn the series and never read it again.


created: 2009-02-08 18:09:53
subject: <b>And probably the biggest piece of counter-evidence...</b>
body:
If this theory were true, then there would be no side-stories. Nothing from Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Black Ajah hunters, unless it was direct interaction with Lews Therin/Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;<i>And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed, who can't believe the emperor is dressed.</i>&quot;~Fastball<br /><br /><b><font color="#FF0000">1</font></b></font>-7-1<br /><br /><i>W!</i><br /><p></p>


created: 2008-12-30 10:54:53
subject: <b>Abandoned, but not Killed</b>
body:
Interesting idea. While I'm on board with the idea that the people you name are taveren, I'm not sure that they have to die to no longer be taveren. Instead, I'm almost inclined to say that they simply cease to be taveren, and natural selection takes care of the rest.<br /><br />If Artur Hawkwing was a great leader and able to bring all of the world together against the White Tower, simply because he was taveren, wouldn't it make sense that as soon as he was no longer taveren that it all began to unravel? The siege against Tar Valon was not a resounding victory, as his other campaigns were, and drug on for two years because it lacked the leadership and &quot;luck&quot; that Hawkwing was used to, eventually failing because the former leader dies.<br /><br />So, I have to disagree with the conclusion that the Wheel kills off its taveren, instead of simply abandoning them.


created: 2008-12-30 18:44:43
subject: <b>How many ta'veren does it take to...?</b>
body:
I&#8217;m not 100% positive that all ta&#8217;veren must die either. What I&#8217;m pointing out is what <i>seems</i> to be a fairly consistent pattern which may be indicative of an aspect of ta&#8217;verenness that hasn&#8217;t been explored before. Direct statements about Hawkwing and Shereed confirm they&#8217;re definitely ta&#8217;veren. Janduin&#8217;s case is a little suppositional, but seems to follow the &#8220;rules&#8221; for ta&#8217;veren as best we seem to be able to determine them. Moiraine&#8217;s case is mostly guesswork, with a lot of reliance on a very long string of unusual or credibility-stretching coincidences which could easily be construed as ta&#8217;verenness, if nothing else.<br /><br />Since we don&#8217;t completely understand the mechanism of how the Wheel <u>makes</u> someone ta&#8217;veren to begin with, we certainly have no clue about how&#8230; or even when&#8230; it stops. Again, given the track record of known and highly suspected ta&#8217;veren, Moiraine&#8217;s &#8220;demise&#8221; follows in line with what&#8217;s been seen for these others; the incident actually goes to support not only the idea of her ta&#8217;verenness, but also of how ta&#8217;veren are &#8220;handled&#8221;; how their &#8220;wildcard&#8221; ability is prevented from causing more trouble than good, once its objective has been achieved..<br /><br />Perhaps the grafting of the ta&#8217;veren attribute to a life-thread is not something that can just be turned off like a water spigot, any more than someone can stop being able to use the OP without being severed (stilled, gentled, burned out, whatever). It might require death to separate the life thread of the living individual from whatever/wherever the ta&#8217;verenness comes from to get it to quit. If this is the case, we&#8217;ve identified a prospective &#8220;maximum life expectance&#8221; for ta&#8217;veren once their primary reason for being has been fulfilled. In WoTWorld, scholars could use that information to examine many other &#8220;persons of potential interest&#8221; to help determine if they were ta&#8217;veren and what their &#8220;focus&#8221; task was.<br /><br />Additionally, what kind of effect could a Hawkwing have if he were left kicking around underfoot, with no useful function? It could be tremendously unbalancing for the ta&#8217;veren attribute to be working without a pattern drift to work on. The individual connected to it could well begin misusing that ability for personal gain beyond what was achieved when the purpose existed. Would the Wheel then have to spin out another ta&#8217;veren to correct the first one&#8217;s over-correction/misuse? Then another to correct that one? And then another... and another... Talk about total chaos. <br /><br />How many ta&#8217;veren could the world and the Wheel stand if they were all running around twisting each other&#8217;s twistings out of true (if you can follow that twisted logic)? As with Occam&#8217;s Razor, &#8220;All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best&#8221;.<br /><br />I just found it an interesting concept and decided to share. Thanks for the input.<br />


created: 2008-12-31 10:21:28
subject: <b>I thought we heard something about this</b>
body:
My memory could be wrong, but I thought that when the concept of <i>ta'veren</i> was first introduced in the books, the explanation included the stipulation that <i>ta'veren</i> was not an immutable concept.  People could be strong <i>ta'veren</i>, weaker <i>ta'veren</i>, and -- I think I remember hearing -- people could be made <i>ta'veren</i> only for awhile, after which they would revert to normal.<br /><br />That isn't to say that <i>ta'veren</i> might not have an abnormally high mortality rate.  Being <i>ta'veren</i> probably puts a person into untenable situations pretty regularly, such that (after accomplishing the Pattern's purpose and the abnormal <i>ta'veren</i> ability is removed) it's hard for a normal person to survive.  But if the theory is that <i>ta'veren</i> <u>have to</u> die to undo their <i>ta'veren</i>-ness, I think that was explicitly contradicted by explanation in the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-01 03:08:59
subject: <b>Moiraine? or Lan</b>
body:
As champaigne settles,<br />  Lan may be a ta'veren, if only weakly. In NS this was hinted at. <br />  Moiraine is a catalyst for many of the current characters rise to thier current status. This does lend credence to her influence on the pattern. She is not dead though. Out of the loop perhaps, but not done.<br />  Lan, on the other hand, has been present at most of the major events in the series. His influence on two of the Two Rivers boys (Rand and Mat) is significant. [Perrin as well but I can not recall when at this time.]<br />  Dai Shan Malkieri, is ta'veren, if only weakly.<br />  To your point though, I believe he will die at Tarwins Gap. His death will precipitate a rally cry amongst the Borderlanders (light as a feather, heavy as a mountain).<br />  Therfor he will meet your criteria.<br /><br />   Taveren must die <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAV<br />Just happy to be here</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-01 14:00:28
subject: <b>I thought so too...</b>
body:
Glaur-DM, I thought I had come across that reference too, but no matter how hard I looked for it, I couldn't find it. If someone else has got it, please let us know.<br /><br />What I primarily use for my references to <i>ta&#8217;veren</i>, what they are and how they work are:<br /><br />&#8220;Even the <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel&#8217;s own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> spun out into the world.&#8221;<br />(Guide, p.14)<br /><br />&quot;A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.&quot;<br />(EotW, Glossary)<br /><br />&#8220;One becomes <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> according to the needs of the Wheel. <u>No one is born <i>ta&#8217;veren</i></u>. Rand, Mat and Perrin <u>became</u> <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> just before Moiraine appeared.<br />(Glimmerings, Q&amp;A) [emphasis added]<br /><br />These three citations, all apparently approved by RJ say nothing about the removal of <i>ta'verenness</i> from an individual prior to death and without any further, more concrete, information (except anecdotal and <u>very suspect</u> information from characters within the story itself) I have to take the position that such an action is either so rare that it has never been credibly documented, or just doesn't happen at all.<br /><br />I get your point, and in a limited general way I agree, but I'm stuck with the view I've presented until I can get clearer and more reliable citations to convince me otherwise.<br />


created: 2009-01-02 10:14:35
subject: <b>Ta'varen destiny</b>
body:
I just now started reading the books for the 6th time and just went over the reference to Ta'veren. Loial explains it to Rand after meeting him in the Queen's Blessing. <br /><br />&quot;...sometimesthe Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. The first bending to make the Web, that is Ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Authur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I supose.&quot;<br /><br />TEotW, Chapter 36, Web of the Pattern... towards the end.<br /><br />This gives us how the Ogier believe the Pattern works... and thay should know a bit about it...<br /><br />A Ta'veren can be one for a short time and still live, he can be one for a long time and still live. The Pattern simply stops weaving around them. He could die in the process of doing what the Wheel spun them out for. Each case is individual at best. <br /><br />We know that Rand and Aviendha have kids, but I highly doubt she'll get pregnant before the Last Battle. We know that she has Rands kids, but they &quot;look funny.&quot; And Min is never wrong. So there's the whole body switch thing... but that's for another topic. <br /><br />Perrin, I think, is a good example of being ta'veren one day and not the next. Look at what the Pattern has done to him. He is now Lord of the Two Rivers and there is speculation that he will somehow unite the Broken Crown. How he's supposed to do that... I have no idea yet. But once he is done, he will return to Emond's Field and rule like any other lord. I expect the area will turn into a large commerce area and thus the Pattern would still need him around to do the job even if he is no longer Ta'veren.<br /><br />Mat is harder figure out how he ends up... sure he's the Commander of his wife's army, but really... what else is there to do? lol<br /><br />And don't forget... Gaidal Cain has already been spun out, but is only a baby now. He will be needed in 30 years or so for something big.


created: 2009-01-02 12:50:28
subject: <b>RPG</b>
body:
Not sure if it holds any relevance, but since the RPG books were approved by Jordan...<br /><br />In the character descriptions for Rand, Mat and Perrin, it notes that some of their abilities were due to being ta'veren. It also noted that &quot;If they cease to be ta'veren,&quot; they would lose these abilities.


created: 2009-01-03 11:59:53
subject: <b>No RPG relevance</b>
body:
I don't see how any RPG could have relevance. The mechanics of the system were derived separate from the writings. Most if not all of the story concepts had to be altered in some way to fit within those pre-existing mechanics; to depict operations from the story in a way that make them consistent within the mechanics. The mechanics of the game were not altered to fit for consistency within the story. If you see what I mean.<br /><br />Now, if RJ had helped develop an RPG specifically for WoT, and officially authorized it as depicting the story concepts accurately and faithfully, I might go for it, but since that isn't the case, I just can't go with any RPG perspective.<br /><br />The best we can hope for is that RJ selected the RPG mechanics he did on the basis that they were the <i>closest</i> he could find. That's fine and dandy, but they're not necessarily close enough for us to trust them as a basis for citation in theories here.<br /><br />Sorry.


created: 2009-01-08 14:29:47
subject: <b>About Hawkwing</b>
body:
I believe that Hawkwing was being influenced by Ishamael at thr time when he refused the help of an Aes Sedai. As it co-incides with the time where ishamel could walk the earth in one of his periods of freedom.


created: 2009-01-10 12:02:49
subject: <b>Moiraine? Ta'veren?</b>
body:
Can Moiraine be ta'veren? Would Siuan or another Aes Sedai with the Talent not have spotted it? I don't think she influenced events in a ta'veren way, and she didn't seem to be tied to following Rand against her free will, as Mat and Perrin are.<br />   As to the theory, I think it might be plausible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Go juggle something&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Aspiring Gleewoman<br /><br />&quot;Remind me never to play poker in this town.&quot; Ben Wade<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-12 14:27:16
subject: <b>rand's dad</b>
body:
There are too many possibilities to assert a truth to the need for the pattern to kill-off those it chooses to do its work.  The only flaw is that Janduin goes a bit crazy after he learns that it was his mistake that allowed Rand's mom to be still fighting that late in her pregnancy.  He chooses to go to the blight because of that decision and is killed by Slayer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-11 04:48:41
subject: <b>Thought provoking idea</b>
body:
You might have also mentioned several more facts that could lend more weight to your theory.<br /><br />1 ) The Aiel Dreamwalkers know how to enter TAR while awake, in a trance-like state. (They teach this to Egwene while traveling across the Waste. She talks to Nynaeve in this trance while riding on horseback.)<br /><br />2 ) The Aiel Dreamwalkers also know how to read the future using TAR, (although it is an imperfect method).<br /><br />3 ) RJ has said that Min's ability to see the future is not related to what the Finn do.<br /><br />Given those three facts, I believe your theory may be on the right track. Since Min can &quot;read the Pattern&quot;, RJ could very well have had TAR in mind as the source she taps into.<br /><br />Nice idea. Thumbs up from me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-11 05:37:29
subject: <b>Concerning the future...</b>
body:
Isn't the defining feature of future-reading by TAR that the viewings are uncertain? AFAIK Min has only had one or two uncertain viewings that we know of.<br /><br />I like the idea, but that difference looks like a problem to me. Of course it could just be a different way of using TAR, though then I'd like to see hints that there <i>are</i> different ways of reading the future through TAR.<br /><br />(I wonder if all shall be revealed in AMoL)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-12 08:20:38
subject: <b>yupper</b>
body:
That is along the lines of my thinking.There is alot to come to fruision in the last book.Lets hope we see it.


created: 2009-01-12 20:29:08
subject: <b>Min's viewings</b>
body:
For Naraoia:<br /><br />&quot;AFAIK Min has only had one or two uncertain viewings that we know of.&quot;<br /><br />She either knows, or she doesn't. In that context <i>everything</i> she views is &quot;uncertain&quot; unless she knows the meaning. That's been a big constant. If she understands a viewing; if she knows what it means, it happens, however long it takes. Otherwise she has to wait for it to occur before she understands, if even then. The only &quot;uncertain&quot; viewing is supposed to be the one about Moiraine, and we're sure that it's not a failure because we now know that Moiriane is still alive, can and probably will be rescued from 'Finnland, and can still fulfill the viewing. So, Min's viewing on this issue, though if falls in the class of not knowing, is not uncertain, merely unknown. The perspective I'm applying to it is one that she's seeing Egwene's &quot;fireflies&quot; are the same as Min's &quot;fireflies&quot;, just viewed in a different perspective.<br /><br />I think this &quot;uncertainty&quot; vs. &quot;certainty&quot; when it comes to veiwing TAR and future-reading may be one of the perspective differences that cause not only Min and Egwene to miss the connection, but some readers as well.<br /><br />Just an idea, though.


created: 2009-01-13 07:25:11
subject: <b>You have a point...</b>
body:
<i>&quot;She either knows, or she doesn't. In that context everything she views is &quot;uncertain&quot; unless she knows the meaning.&quot;</i><br /><br />...with that. However, note that:<br /><br /><i>&quot;if she knows what it means, it happens&quot;</i><br /><br />And that's what causes the problem for me. Again, my books are several countries away from me, but I'm sure the Wise Ones explain somewhere that whatever they see in TAR is <i>always</i> just a possibility. Some of the possibilities have more chance of happening, some of them less, but they don't know anything for certain.<br /><br />The only thing like that we see with Min is, IIRC, when she sees two possible outcomes in one or two of her viewings (so no, I didn't even think of Moiraine). I've found one in the Min's Viewings FAQ:<br /><br /><b>&quot;Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.<br /><br />The things she saw were rarely as clear in meaning as those two, and she had never before seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future.&quot; -<i>The Shadow Rising</i>, The Truth of a Viewing</b><br /><br />This is the first time she sees anything like that.<br /><br /><i>&quot;I think this &quot;uncertainty&quot; vs. &quot;certainty&quot; when it comes to veiwing TAR and future-reading may be one of the perspective differences that cause not only Min and Egwene to miss the connection, but some readers as well.&quot;</i><br /><br />It might well be, but <b>*serious scientist face*</b> more evidence is needed.<br /><br />(Or Min could be &quot;the protrusion into our dimension of vastly hyperintelligent pandimensional beings.&quot;, like the mice in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-13 09:27:57
subject: <b>How I see it working</b>
body:
If you&#8217;re familiar with Sherlock Holmes, you&#8217;re familiar with the statement, &#8220;When you&#8217;ve eliminated everything that&#8217;s impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.&#8221;<br /><br />Here&#8217;s how I see Min&#8217;s viewings. Most of the time she sees possibilities or probabilities. She sees &#8220;most likely&#8221; circumstances. In most people she sees nothing because they are mostly free-will entities whose lives go along the same as anyone&#8217;s. Occasionally, though, the chain of cause and effect begins to narrow those probabilities; they begin to get trapped into a more limited course of actions. Min&#8217;s viewings begin focusing on people when those &#8220;impossibles&#8221; are pretty much gone. What&#8217;s left is a limited selection of probabilities. When Min &#8220;knows&#8221;, the last of the impossibles are gone and we have the inevitable &#8211; the final, however improbable, truth. Her uncertainty in most instances obviously comes from the symbols used. She doesn&#8217;t know what they all mean. We, as readers, may well have figured out a great number of her visions well before the answer was revealed to the characters, simply because we understood the symbols, but Min is lost.<br /><br />In the case of people like Aes Sedai, and <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> like Rand, Mat and Perrin, association with the OP may alter how it works. Min sees more of those uneliminated impossibles because these people literally have the power to change reality (&#8220;magic&#8221; or <i>ta&#8217;veren</i> either way). This vastly broadens the spectrum of non-eliminatable probabilities. Either way, though, when she knows (when she understands the symbolism) she&#8217;s right, because that is now the sole possibility; all others have been eliminated. Example the people (Aes Sedai and others) she knows would die during the revolt at the WT when Sanche is deposed. She knew they would die, and even that they would all die on the same day. The exact day and the exact reason for the deaths were still hidden from her because those facets of the event were still uncertain.<br /><br />As to &#8220;Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.&#8221; This is still just uneliminated impossibility. Gawyn&#8217;s course is obviously still unset. His conflict regarding Rand still has him split between two actions of equal probability. Until he finally lands on one or the other, that one scene still has two possible outcomes, as portrayed in the narrative itself.<br /><br />I would personally hesitate to use the Wise Ones as the sole reference for how T&#8217;A&#8217;R works. Most of the Forsaken, especially Lanfear and Moggy, know a great deal more than they do. The WO are good, to be sure, but their viewpoint can hardly be considered definitive. Perhaps they suffer from the same problem Min has, an inherent misunderstanding in the symbology. This would easily explain their hesitancy in saying something is or is not a certain way; will or will not happen. They may have a track record of getting burned because of misinterpretation and now resort to waffling because they don&#8217;t want to get burned again. It would hardly do for a &#8220;Wise&#8221; one to look foolish by giving out bad info.<br /><br />Egwene&#8217;s dreaming is actually very similar to Min&#8217;s viewings. Her own dreams frequently use symbols or concepts with which she is unfamiliar, keeping her from interpreting them clearly. The fact that she can voluntarily enter the dream state to get them, as opposed to Min&#8217;s being relegated to sporadic happenstance, is the only real difference I see. That and the fact that Min is wide awake when she sees hers an Elayne has to be &#8220;asleep&#8221;. Other than that, I&#8217;m still convinced the two conditions are effectively the same; that Min and Egwene&#8217;s &#8220;Fireflies&#8221; are just different perspectives on the same place.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t discount your hesitancy, by the way. I agree &#8220;more evidence is needed&#8221; (lol) but I don&#8217;t think it will take much to nail it down.<br /><br />(and, yes, I have my towel!)	<br />


created: 2009-01-14 06:16:45
subject: <b>Agreed, I guess?</b>
body:
I like your argument, and I find it plausible but poorly supported. You acknowledge it needs more evidence. It's a deal, I think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;If you&#8217;re familiar with Sherlock Holmes, you&#8217;re familiar with the statement, &#8220;When you&#8217;ve eliminated everything that&#8217;s impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.&#8221;</i><br /><br />I've never read any Sherlock Holmes stuff, but everyone's heard that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> (Well, <i>almost</i> everyone)<br /><br />(And I wholeheartedly disagree, though of course my reason for disagreeing doesn't apply to magical future-reading.)<br /><br />As for the Wise Ones, I could definitely imagine them doing that, but this still has the same problem as the rest of the theory.<br /><br />Anyway, I don't think there's much else we could do with this argument, so thanks for the fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thumbsup.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 16:37:32
subject: <b>Yes.</b>
body:
I just wanted to say nie bit of work. There are some long, weird theories, however this one is simple as well as relevant. Absoloutley agree about the &quot;need all three to be strong enough&quot;-part.


created: 2009-01-11 06:04:49
subject: <b>almost but you forgot</b>
body:
when tam hallucinated in TEotW of how he found rand on dragonmount he said that kari always wanted a baby.<br />so i guess they met before that event maybe even before the war.<br />but since kari is a merchant's daughter from Caemlyn you have at least one time when tam was in the city <br />so he could have met morgase<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No bastard ever won a war dying for his country.You win a war by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country -Guaire Amalasan <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-11 06:15:31
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
This theory is plausible, I suppose. However, there is the fact that there are signs that may lead us to believe that other Two River folk may have ventured out to war. These are Perrin's observations when he returns to Emond's Field after being ambushed by Trollocs:<br /><br /><i>At intervals behind the stakes men stood like sentries, some wearing bits of old armor or leather shirts sewn with rusty steel discs, a few in dented old steel caps, with boar spears, or halberds rooted out of attics, or bush hooks fitted to long poles.</i><br /><br />and:<br /><br /><i>The common room had been turned into an armory of sorts. Except in front of the fireplace, the walls were a solid mass of propped spears of every description, with the occasional halberd or bill mixed in, and some polearms with oddly shaped blades, many pitted and discolored where old rust had been scoured away. Even more surprisingly, a barrel near the foot of the stairs held swords all jumbled together, most without scabbards and no two alike. Every attic within five miles must have been turned out for relics dust-covered for generations. Perrin would not have suspected there were five swords in the whole Two Rivers. Before the Whitecloaks and Trollocs came, anyway.</i><br /><br />I guess these relics could have been left over from the Trolloc Wars, although if memory serves me, that took place about two thousand years ago. I have my doubts any of those items would have been around that long, and if they had, would be completely rusted beyond repair. The boiled leather jerkins would probably be dust after so much time had passed. <br /><br />I think we have to assume the swords, helmets and halberds are more recent, yet we don't know exactly when. What other wars might have involved the Two Rivers people, who seem to have isolated themselves forever?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-11 19:10:41
subject: <b>Not bad reasoning</b>
body:
I think that he could have met her prior to the Aiel war as he was a bladmaster and that has to be when he met Kari as i doubt he met her during the war.  But either way i like it.<br /><br />We also see that one of the Illian (Council of Nine i think) remembers Rands Father in the Talks at the start of POD.  Though obviously a still serving member would remember a blademaster in their army.<br /><br />As a thought prior to the Aiel war when he went to Camelyn to meet Kari.  Perhaps he Quit the Illian army and hung out in Camelyn until the Aiel war upon when he then Captained a Andoran army for the Aiel War. Definantly would have met the queen then.  (I am only makeing up thoughts for this one as i dont remember any talk of whose army he led during the Aiel war.  He quite possibly was still in the Illian army.) Just a thought.


created: 2009-01-12 02:23:03
subject: <b>Maybe Tam had sex with Morgase?</b>
body:
Morgase had a lot of lovers, so maybe Morgase has slept with two blademasters in her lifetime?  Plus it would be cool if Rand's dad slept with Elayne's Mom.  Also, Rand's half-brother has a different father but Rand's father still banged Galad's half-mother.  <br /><br />Good theory, but like Light in the Night said, there just isn't any concrete evidence on this, and many other Two Rivers folk have left the Two Rivers before.


created: 2009-01-12 07:32:30
subject: <b>Probably Plausible, but...</b>
body:
This theory sounds like it could be plausible, but mostly because of Tam's position in the Companions and the likelihood that he'd have met Andoran royalty.<br /><br />This theory doesn't take in to account that we know almost nothing of the other towns in the Two Rivers.  Morgase doesn't say that she knows Emonds Field speach...but Two Rivers speach.  I don't think Jordan would have thrown in a reference like that without it being important to us, but what's to say that she didn't meet someone from Deven Ride, Watch Hill or even Taren Ferry?


created: 2009-01-12 07:52:35
subject: <b>An evil thought</b>
body:
<i>&quot;I don't think Jordan would have thrown in a reference like that without it being important to us...&quot;</i><br /><br />And what if he just threw it in because he had no idea why Morgase would've let him go otherwise?<br /><br />(Disclaimer: don't take that too seriously <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-12 08:10:57
subject: <b>I dont know?</b>
body:
Other peaple left the Two Rivers than just Tam Al Thor,Padan faine for one,and a who knows who else.Plus the re are bordering towns that probably have a simalar if not exact dialect.<br />  I still think you did an awsome job though.


created: 2009-01-12 10:43:56
subject: <b>This part is a bit speculative</b>
body:
&quot;I can find no information about any 2R inhabitants (other than Tam) leaving the 2R between Tam&#8217;s departure from there and Moiraine&#8217;s arrival at Emond&#8217;s Field over four decades later.&quot;<br /><br />That is true of Emond's Field, but we know little about the other villages.  Who's to say a handful don't leave every year?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-12 12:10:00
subject: <b>yes but</b>
body:
I agree about meeting Morgase, but he must have met Kari prior to the end of the Aiel War: he picks up baby-Rand thinking of how much Kari has always wanted a baby (I don't have the books here for reference but it's in tEotW when he murmurs in his fever about &quot;I knew you always wanted children, Kari&quot; - it's the line that makes Rand almost fall over from shock).<br />This CERTAINLY indicates he must have known her for a while - otherwise how could he know how much she wanted a baby, and possibly tried and failed having one the 'normal' way.<br />They might have met earlier and on their way back - through Caemlyn, possibly getting married there, he somehow met Morgase - maybe via one of those invitations you mentioned.<br />otherwise: like it!


created: 2009-01-12 16:34:12
subject: <b>Some of you are forgetting</b>
body:
The Two Rivers includes; Emonds Field, Watch Hill and Devon Ride.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-12 20:14:17
subject: <b>Rebuttals</b>
body:
<b>For Guire-Amalasan:</b><br /><br />No, I didn&#8217;t forget Tam&#8217;s statements. I had a problem with them in that they were made while he was delirious from fever. Looking at the entire section from start to finish (when he first started mouthing his &#8220;gibberish&#8221; to when Rand turns him over to 2R people, it&#8217;s fairly obvious that his statements are not made in a coherent, linear order. He&#8217;s popping back and forth through past experiences without any real continuity. That makes any presumption about which event came before or after any other untrustworthy at best. So, I discounted them in that context for that reason.<br /><br /><b>For Light in the Night</b><br /><br />I had this suspicion for a while too, but some of the items you point out don&#8217;t apply. Boar spears may be standard contemporary gear in the 2R area as far as we know. Hunting does seem to be a frequent pastime in the area and I don&#8217;t think 2R inhabitants are in the habit of hunting in the wild with inappropriate tools. If wild boars exist in the area, then having boar spears on hand would make good, 2R sense. We don&#8217;t&#8217; know for sure. &#8220;Bush hooks fitted to long poles&#8221; merely indicate improvised weaponry any &#8220;peasant levy&#8221; would be expected to create. As for the rest, some of your second quote says it nicely;<blockquote>&#8220;<u>Every attic within five miles must have been turned out for relics <b>dust-covered for <i>generations</i></b></u>.&#8221;  [tSR, Ch 42, A Missing Leaf, p. 700]</blockquote>shows that people are digging deeply to find family heirlooms of any kind. They&#8217;re frightened, angry, desperate, etc. Anything at all that will help them defend their homes and families, their livelihoods, neighbors and friends will get brought out and thrown into the pot to see if it will do some good. And;<blockquote>&#8220;&#8230;swords all jumbled together, most <u>without scabbards</u> and <u>no two alike</u>.&#8221;</blockquote>from the same passage shows that there was once a large variety of such weaponry in 2R at some time, but the only previous period <i>we&#8217;re informed of</i> is the Trolloc Wars. The lack of scabbards for even one of them clearly suggests age. Solid leather sword scabbards don&#8217;t&#8217; just fall apart in a few years. It can take decades to rot. If even modest care has been taken to oil them and them wrap them carefully before storing them, it might well take &#8220;generations&#8221; for them to fall apart. If any of those scabbards were made of metal, even half-a$$ed storage care could make them lost a <b>long</b> time.<br /><br />Couple this with a previous passage [tSR, Ch 40, Hunter of Trollocs, p. 662].<blockquote>&#8220;<u>Hundreds and hundreds</u> of people have come in from north and south, from every direction...&#8221;</blockquote>and you have an easy supposition that the 2R may very well be a historical treasure trove of Trolloc War era relics. Devon Ride, Watch Hill and farmers, ranchers and just people in general by the <b>hundreds</b> are streaming in to Emond's Field for protection. And they&#8217;re all packing as much heat as they can muster.<br /><br />The boiled leather shirts you mention [tSR, Ch 42, A Missing Leaf, p. 695] don&#8217;t have to be leftovers. The &#8220;rusty steel discs&#8221; sewn to them could be either the final remnants of some family heirloom newly attached to a modern day shirt, or just rusty steel discs of some more generic type used by farmers in the 2R for unknown purposes. We have no way of knowing. The context seems to strongly suggest age, though. The few &#8220;dented old steel caps&#8221; and &#8220;halberds rooted out of attics&#8221; are certainly old; perhaps old enough.<br /><br />As I said,<blockquote>I can find no information about any 2R inhabitants (other than Tam) leaving the 2R between Tam&#8217;s departure from there and Moiraine&#8217;s arrival at Emond&#8217;s Field over four decades later. We&#8217;ll take this dearth of <b>solid, positive indications</b> as a confirmatory negative and say Tam was the only one.</blockquote>Unless you&#8217;re leaning in the direction of proposing the 2R has been a secret mercenary supply depot for the surrounding kingdoms for who-know-how-long, and have been keeping it a closely held secret, even amongst themselves, the only reasonable assumption that can be made from what we&#8217;re given is that these relics are indeed leftovers from the last time the 2R saw military conflict on any scale of note; namely the Trolloc Wars that destroyed Manetheren.<br /><br />For Faine:<br /><br />Padan Fain wasn&#8217;t from the 2R. He&#8217;s a Murandian, specifically &#8220;Lugarder&#8221;. He was a traveling peddler who apparently traveled a lot. As far as &#8220;border towns&#8221; go, we only know of Taren Ferry, and we&#8217;re aware of 2R opinion of <i>them</i>.<br /><br />For jbtowers:<blockquote>&#8221;&#8230;we know little about the other villages. Who's to say a handful don't leave every year?</blockquote> I understand the position, but wouldn&#8217;t we expect Jordan to make some reference to this kind of activity, even in a left-handed manner, if it were the case. I have to repeat my statement from above and from the original post, we have to take the &#8220;dearth of solid, positive indications as a confirmatory negative&#8221;. Unless we find really good reason to believe other 2R inhabitants have left the 2R within the last 20-40 years, Tam&#8217;s the only suspect.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for the responses, folks. You&#8217;ve kept me on my toes &#8220;defending&#8221; myself. It&#8217;s been fun.<br />


created: 2009-01-12 20:51:57
subject: <b>It was good until the end...</b>
body:
As Gauire pointed out, you did leave out Tam's ramblings, which you summarily dismissed as fevered because you can't place them within your theory.<br /><br />As you pointed out, Tam was a dedicated military man and every indication is given that he is a dedicated family man.  He put the sword away because his wife didn't like it and his dedication to her was greater than his military dedication.<br /><br />&quot;You're still lovely, Kari.  Still lovely as a girl.&quot;  tEotW, pg. 81, paperback<br /><br />While fevered in the Westwood, most of Tam's ramblings are spoken to Kari as if she was still there.  This, along with his refusal to find another wife, indicates that he still loves her.<br /><br />As he rambles further, he begins to explain what led him to Dragonmount in the first place.  Laman cutting down Avendoraldera, The Aiel crossing the Spine and wreaking havoc across Cairhein, the nations coming together to fight them off.<br /><br />there is no indication of who he is talking to during this, but when he gets to the battle outside the Shining Walls, he starts to speak to Kari again.<br /><br />&quot;...battles are always hot, even in the snow.  Sweat heat.  Bloodheat.  Only death is cool.  Slope of the mountain...only place didn't stink of death.  Had to get away from smell of it..sight of it..heard a baby cry.  Their women fight alongside the men, sometimes, but why they had let her come, I don't...gave birth there alone, before she died of her wounds...covered the child with the cloak, but the wind...blown the cloak away...child, blue with the cold.  Should have been dead, too...crying there.  Crying in the snow.  I couldn't just leave a child....<b>no children of our own....always knew you wanted children.  I knew you'd take it to your heart, Kari.  Yes, lass.  Rand is a good name.  A good name.&quot; </b><br /><br />Tam goes from telling the story to no one in particular, to telling Kari.  Tam also indicates that he and Kari were together before the battle outside the Shining walls.  <br /><br />Dismissing Tam during the fever dream is your perogative, but ignoring his explanation as to why he brought the child back would be ill advised.<br /><br />My guess would be that Kari and Tam met at some point well before the Aiel War, fell in love and got married.  They tried to have children at some point, but were unable to do so.  Which is why Tam knew she would take to the baby.<br /><br />I think your idea of when Morgase heard Tam speak is a good one, but I think your timeline is wrong as to when Kari and Tam met.  <br /><br />I think it more likely Kari went with Tam, as far as Caemlyn at least, when he went to the Aiel War.  She probably stayed with family, being from Ceamlyn, and Tam stayed with her afterwards for a couple of months before going back to Emond's Field.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-13 00:46:48
subject: <b>I remember speaking of this with DomA during the official reread...</b>
body:
As others have pointed out, Tam couldn't have met Kari when returning from the Aiel War, because they were already thinking of getting children when Tam found Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount.<br /><br />Another thing to remember is that Morgase would have had to meet Tam when he was an officer in the Illianer Companions, and already a Blademaster. It is likely that Morgase would remember such a unique individual, but she does not react to Tam's name when Rand calls him his father: <i>&quot;My mother was an outlander, that's where my eyes come from. My father is Tam al'Thor, a shepherd and farmer, as I am.&quot;</i><br /><br />Of course, maybe she doesn't remember the name, though I doubt she'd remember the accent but not the individual who spoke it.<br /><br />But by far more distressing is the entire court's reaction to learning that Rand has a heron-marked sword. Clearly, a shepherd from the Two Rivers with a blademaster's sword is not so common that she would forget that the last time she met someone from the Two Rivers he <i>also</i> was a blademaster. And was the father of this one.<br /><br />DomA suggested that Morgase had perhaps heard Two Rivers speech while visiting Baerlon, which we know occasionally sees visit from Two Rivers folk, either before she became Queen and was only High Seat of House Trakand, or as part of her struggles to claim the throne. While Emond's Field and Watch Hill, and probably even more Deven Ride, don't often see people leaving the Two Rivers, it may well be more common with Tarren Ferry men, who are considered 'almost outlanders' by the rest of the Two Rivers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-13 04:33:54
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
I applaud your gusto in defending your theory. I was not suggesting that the Two Rivers was supplying arms in secret, however. (As you mentioned sarcastically, I assume.)<br /><br />What you are trying to make us believe though, is that it is quite common for people to have two-thousand year old weapons lying around in their attic. That's just ludicrous. That's akin to saying a substantial percentage of the people now living in Rome would have a gladius in their attic. (That may not be the best analogy, but the real point is; how much stuff survives for that length of time to be handed down? Two thousand years is a <i>long</i> time.)<br /><br />Now, as for information about anyone ever leaving the Two Rivers, I found three references:<br /><br /><i>Why would Tam have bought a sword? He could not imagine. And where had Tam come by it? How far away? <b>No one ever left the Two Rivers; or very few, at least.</b> He had always vaguely supposed his father must have gone outside - his mother had been an outlander-but a sword ... ? He had a lot of questions to ask once they had settled at the table.</i> tEotW chapter 5.<br /><br />This passage shows Rand's naivete early in the story. He <i>knew</i> his father had married an outlander, but hadn't really applied the logic to follow the knowledge to the conclusion. Even with that lack of understanding, though, Rand knew that some people <i>do</i> leave the Two Rivers. This is a fair indication that it has possibly happened within Rand's lifetime already.<br /><br />This passage is also from Rand's pov:<br /><br /><i>Aes Sedai were respected in Shienar, at least by most people, and the rest respectfully feared them, but Rand had been in places where it was different, where there was only the fear, and often hate. Where he had grown up, some men, at least, spoke of &quot;Tar Valon witches&quot; as they would speak of the Dark One. He tried to count the women, but they kept no ranks or order, moving their horses around to converse with one another or with whoever was in the palanquin. Goose bumps covered him. He had traveled with Moiraine, and met another Aes Sedai, and he had begun to think of himself as worldly. <b>Nobody ever left the Two Rivers, or almost nobody, but he had.</b> He had seen things no one back in the Two Rivers had ever laid eyes on, done things they had only dreamed of, if they had dreamed so far. He had seen a queen and met the Daughter-Heir of Andor, faced a Myrddraal and traveled the Ways, and none of it had prepared him for this moment.</i> tGH chapter 1.<br /><br />And this is from Perrin's pov:<br /><br /><i>Master al'Thor only grunted; he had been in a war, so Perrin had heard, though not where or how, exactly. Just somewhere outside the Two Rivers, where he had gone as a young man, returning years later with a wife and a child, Rand. <b>Few Two Rivers folk ever left.</b> Perrin doubted if any of them really knew what a war was, except by what they heard from peddlers, or merchants and their guards and wagon drivers. He knew, though. He had seen war, on Toman Head. Abell was right. What they,had was bad enough, but it did not come near war.</i> tSR chapter 32.<br /><br />Even Perrin knows about people leaving the Two Rivers. It may not happen that often, but it does happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-13 07:48:00
subject: <b>This...</b>
body:
<i>&quot;What you are trying to make us believe though, is that it is quite common for people to have two-thousand year old weapons lying around in their attic. That's just ludicrous. That's akin to saying a substantial percentage of the people now living in Rome would have a gladius in their attic. (That may not be the best analogy, but the real point is; <b>how much stuff survives for that length of time to be handed down?</b> Two thousand years is a long time.)&quot;</i><br /><br />... deserves enthusiastic nodding. <br /><br />Although, given how in RJ's world <i>language</i> survives that long virtually unchanged (Randlanders and Seanchan can still talk to each other? Even with printing, that doesn't sound highly realistic), anything is possible <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-13 18:51:45
subject: <b>A small concession</b>
body:
I appreciate the responses, particularly the references I&#8217;ve missed. Thanks for those. I agree it&#8217;s possible that Morgase may have heard someone else speak the 2R dialect, but I still think it was Tam she heard. After all it&#8217;s not RJ&#8217;s style to toss in throw away lines; things like this usually have connections, however difficult to find.<br /><br />As to Tam and Keri, well done folks. I missed some of those; the picture is clearer. It seems very possible now that Tam met Keri prior to the end of the Aiel War, but now we have to ask where? As Tam was an Illianer Companion and heavily involved militarily with them for quite a few years I would have to presume that he met her somewhere in Illian. The quote from Moiraine that &#8220;Tam al&#8217;Thor returned to the Two Rivers with a wife from Caemlyn and an infant boy&#8230;&#8221; leads one to presume that she was IN Caemlyn when he met her. That might not be the case. That may be where she was born, and presumably raised, but not necessarily where she lived when Tam met her... *another lesson on &#8220;assuming&#8221; I suppose &#8211; lol* So... good work there, too. Thank you.<br /><br />As to the weaponry: Yes, the mercenary comment was tongue-in-cheek. Although I agree that it&#8217;s a long stretch of the imagination to have so many weapons of such age still kicking about (your gladius point is very well taken), by what RJ wrote we can&#8217;t discount it. I see three basic cases to explain it &#8211; you may be able to think of more:<br /><br />1) They <i>are</i> relics from the Trolloc Wars and the people of the 2R <i>have</i> managed to keep these things at least minimally functional all that time, regardless how ridiculous <b>we</b> might think it;<br /><br />2) My little &#8220;mercenary&#8221; remark is truer than either of us wants to think. This would mean that more people leave the 2R than RJ allows the storyline to admit, (certainly more than Mat, Rand or Perrin are aware of); that&#8217;s not impossible. But&#8230;considering how deadly the world is (plague, Whitecloaks, and wars&#8230; oh my!) a large percentage of those 2R adventurers would have to survive to come home &#8211; with their weapons &#8211; to keep a corroding depot of older weapons resupplied with replacements. I&#8217;m not ready to make that stretch&#8230; not without confirmation from the author (which, sadly, we may never get);<br /><br />3) 2R people buy these things from peddlers and merchants, and keep them squirreled away in their attics to gather dust instead of mounting them proudly above the fireplace. This would imply a wide-spread &#8220;dirty little secret&#8221; in the 2R. I&#8217;m not ready to buy that either. Though I admit that Perrin seems more chagrined than amazed or scandalized by the numbers and variety of weapons that crop up, I don&#8217;t think it implies that there&#8217;s common knowledge of a consistent flow of Tam-like malcontents streaming in and out of the 2R year after year that we&#8217;re simply left in the dark about. Again, RJ doesn&#8217;t normally set a stage with trivial or toss-off information that makes no sense. We have to dig pretty deeply for the connections sometimes, but they&#8217;re there.<br /><br />All in all, I&#8217;m willing to concede the point about when Tam might have met Keri. As for the rest, I&#8217;ll stand my ground. <br /><br />I still think Tam is the one Morgase heard the 2R speech from. It just fits Jordan&#8217;s foreshadowing style too well to look at it any other way.<br /><br />I still think that post-Aiel War was the most likely and logical timeframe for Morgase and Tam to have met. Occam&#8217;s Razor &#8211; the simplest solution is often the best. Tam could easily have been in that area at the time and circumstances would have almost made it a natural.<br /><br />I still think that the weapons (at least the vast majority of them) are relics from Manetheren. Though I think this point diverges from the main thrust of my idea by more than a large margin, I get the intent. But to me, when RJ says there are a lot of these old thinks clanking about in the 2R, they are whether I can make complete sense of it or not. As to where they come from, again I use Occam&#8217;s Razor: Manetheren is the last time we know of (that the author tells us anything about) that the 2R had any reason/use for them. Again, unless the author says different, I have to go with what I&#8217;m given. Mistake or oversight on the author&#8217;s part? Maybe&#8230; but I work with what I&#8217;m given as best I can.<br /><br />Thanks folks, it&#8217;s a blast. Keep &#8216;em coming.<br />


created: 2009-01-14 01:14:31
subject: <b>An RL reason Morgase might have meant Tam...</b>
body:
... which potentially supports this theory is that RJ had planned to right prequel novellas. One is New Spring, One details how exactly Moiraine and Lan got to the Two RIvers and the third is about <i>Tam's adventure's after leaving the two rivers</i>.<br /><br />As for how martial the 2R people are, I point you to some 'worlds of if' memories from TGH, where 2R people march for Tarmon Gaidon. It implies Mat's not the only one strong in the Old Blood...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">As a fanfic Writer, I am grateful for Kingdom Hearts. It makes writing about Randland so much easier...</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-14 01:36:25
subject: <b>I think it's a little of 2 and 3</b>
body:
At least when it comes to the swords. If an army from Manetherin was outfitted, it would follow that they would have had weapons-makers that produced similar swords. As Perrin noted, none were alike, so, either the swords were special-made for officers, or they came from another era. Some were probably bought from merchants guards, peddlers, or traded for, as you suggested.<br /><br />As for the polearm weapons, they were originally tools of farmers to begin with, with the added bonus of also being a weapon when needed.<br /><br />And, the Two Rivers, like any place, will always have people that seek adventure outside the small setting, or some that find they don't fit in. Some get killed when they reach a big city, some survive and stay, and yet others return after having their fill of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-18 19:44:52
subject: <b>Tam and Morgase Meeting Number 2</b>
body:
As i said way above i like it and all your defending remarks<br /><br />For those who believe:<br /><br />Tam is with Perrin, as of now Morgase is with Perrin.<br /><br />Tam will be the first one to Recognise (although i think Berelain knows and perhaps a few Aes Sedai) her as the Queen of Andor.  If he met her around 20 - 25 years ago and she has &quot;slowed&quot; she would only look 10-13 years older then when they first met (based on her max age being 140ish) and Tam would surely remember what the Queen looked like.  She would have been 15 - 20 ish (Elayne) now looks 28 (Nynaeve) (really 40ish) a ripened more mature Elayne which Rand thinks when he sees her in TEOTW<br />


created: 2009-01-18 19:51:24
subject: <b>good theory all around except about when Tam met Kari</b>
body:
Part of Tam's fever dreams during TEoTW has him specifically mentioning that at the time he found Rand he was already married to Kari and had already established that she was somehow unable to conceive normally. He also mentions how much she wants a baby and how confident he was that she would love him as her own.<br />All in all though, well thought out. I happen to agree that if Morgase finds Two Rivers speech familiar Tam is the only one she could have heard it from. Also given that Tam was already Second Captain at this time, he would have had access to the &quot;circles of power&quot; at the time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 02:21:25
subject: <b>to black comedy</b>
body:
&quot;Part of Tam's fever dreams during TEoTW has him specifically mentioning that at the time he found Rand he was already married to Kari and had already established that she was somehow unable to conceive normally.&quot;<br /><br />Did I miss something?<br /><br />Couldn't Tam also be problem as to why they cannot have babies? It also could be possible that they both are unable to have babies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-01-19 11:35:37
subject: <b>Unnecessary detail</b>
body:
Whether Tam knew Keri before or after the Aiel War is a very minor point, well outside the thrust of the actual theory which was concentrating on when Tam and Morgase may have met. I&#8217;ll quote myself from above,<br /><blockquote>As to Tam and Keri, well done folks. I missed some of those; the picture is clearer. It seems very possible now that Tam met Keri prior to the end of the Aiel War, but now we have to ask where? As Tam was an Illianer Companion and heavily involved militarily with them for quite a few years I would have to presume that he met her somewhere in Illian. The quote from Moiraine that &#8220;Tam al&#8217;Thor returned to the Two Rivers with a wife from Caemlyn and an infant boy&#8230;&#8221; leads one to presume that she was IN Caemlyn when he met her. That might not be the case. That may be where she was born, and presumably raised, but not necessarily where she lived when Tam met her... *another lesson on &#8220;assuming&#8221; I suppose &#8211; lol* So... good work there, too. Thank you.</blockquote><br />Hopefully we can put that one to bed. We don&#8217;t know the details, can perhaps never know the details; it doesn&#8217;t really matter in the long run.<br /> <br />As to blame for which of the two (Tam or Keri) couldn&#8217;t make babies, I don&#8217;t really care. I don&#8217;t see arguing over as constructive or meaningful within the frame of WoT theories. It has so little impact on our overall understanding of events as to make no difference whatsoever. Can we put that one to bed too? Please?<br />


created: 2009-01-20 04:44:05
subject: <b>re: 2R weapons</b>
body:
Master Luhhan makes a pretty mean battle axe. (Note Byar's reaction to it while Perrin is a Whitecloak captive.)<br />I'm no blacksmith, but I'd imagine there's a lot of subtle (and important) distinctions between a wood-chopping axe and a battle axe.<br /><br />This leads me to the conclusion that smiths in the Two Rivers might retain some weapons-making knowledge from Manetheren and beyond.<br />Since the Two Rivers is a fairly sleepy place, I can see smiths pottering about making swords occasionally, whether for love of working metal, a lark, or possibly because of the Old Blood.


created: 2009-01-20 05:29:06
subject: <b>2R people always end up doing great</b>
body:
I noticed that too. How the hell can a blacksmith from a sleepy town know how to make a battle axe so well it would garner comment from experienced soldiers? It seems Two Rivers people end up distinguishing themselves whenever they leave. Tam was the last to leave Emond's Field in memory and look what happened to him. Then there's Egwene, Nynaeve and the three ta'veren. And now both the white and black tower consider the Two Rivers area fertile ground for recruiting channellers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-17 04:24:02
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
I think precisely BECAUSE of the proximity of healing &quot;the cutting of hope&quot; and the mentioning &quot;the wound of madness&quot; I always thought - and am still convinced that it meant that Rand would 'heal' the Taint, or remove it. Thereby restoring hope, since female Aes Sedai and Saidar alone wouldn't be able to win against the Shadow, but the contributions of male channelers is needed as well. After the tainting of Saidin there certainly was no (realistic) hope of that. Thus: remove taint = 'heal'/stop madness = restore hope which was cut by the tainting


created: 2009-01-17 09:55:50
subject: <b>I seriously doubt it...</b>
body:
I suppose it&#8217;s possible, RJ does get overly cryptic at times, but&#8230;<br />He does write &#8220;cutting <b>of</b> hope&#8221; which strongly implies that hope is either removed, destroyed or seriously damaged.<br /><br />In TDR, Ch 6, Moraine says to Perrin,<br /><br />&#8220;<i>Callandor</i> will be but one fulfillment of <i>The Karaethon Cycle</i>, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he &#8216;shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf&#8217; &#8221;? What does it mean that he &#8216;shall bind the nine moons to serve him&#8217;? Yet these are given equal weight with <i>Callandor</i> in the <i>Cycle</i>. There are others. What &#8216;<u>wounds of madness and cutting of hope</u>&#8217; has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains? And some are so obscure that he may already have fulfilled them, although I am not aware of it.&#8221;<br /><br />In this one paragraph she points to:<br />1)	His birth on Dragonmount<br />2)	<i>Callandor</i><br />3)	Sword of peace/leaf &#8211; Aiel<br />4)	Bind the 9 Moons &#8211; Tuon<br />5)	Broken chains &#8211; vague but many agree it&#8217;s the Seanchan <i>damanae</i><br />6)	Who put in chains &#8211; Possibly the AS who swore to him?<br />7)	Healing madness and cutting of hope &#8211;  hmmmmm<br /><br />The first two are fulfilled. The next two are in the works. Perhaps #5 may be in the works??? while six has already happened??? We&#8217;re not completely sure, but it seems likely. That leaves the last.<br /><br />Look at the context: Moiraine says &#8220;What (quote the term here) has he healed?&#8221; This implies strongly that both the madness and the cut hope are to be healed, repaired or reversed. If they are not the same thing, they will likely be either related or similar things, or healed at the same time or in close proximity. Other than Padan Fain, the only &#8220;madness&#8221; we know of that has needed &#8220;healing&#8221; is the taint. And it was certainly a &#8220;cut hope&#8221; three thousand years ago. When the DO whammied <i>saidin</i>, he ended any hope the AoLers had of shutting him down completely and eventually getting back to &#8216;normal&#8217;. Rand has certainly healed the madness and healed the cut hope by cleansing <i>saidin</i>. I take it to be done and don&#8217;t see <i>chora</i> trees coming into it at all. Sorry.<br />


created: 2009-01-17 13:52:03
subject: <b>Agree with Owyn Reborn</b>
body:
At first I thought it referred to Ishamael, the betrayer of hope, and Rand's tie to him through the body-switch, but I now think that Owyn Reborn has it right when it refers to the cleansing of the taint. That definitely fulfills both the wounds of madness and the cutting of hope that are in the same line. Rand is the hope of the world, and he couldn't use saidin at the last battle if it would drive him mad.


created: 2009-01-18 12:39:55
subject: <b>Taint</b>
body:
I've got a few problems with your theory. Let me break it down for you.<br /><br />1) &quot;heal the cutting of hope&quot; (in close proximity to this is mention of wounds of madness, but let's not go there...<br />I think we need to go there, because of the proximity. When Moiraine mentioned this she said, &quot;what &quot;wounds of madness and cutting of hope&quot; has he healed? What chains has he broken?&quot; The way it is written shows that the Kareathon Cycle mentioned the madness and the cutting of hope together. This is a very significant point you just glossed over. It means the two are related. <br />I believe the cutting of hope that was healed was the taint on saidin. Rand healed the hope that was cut. He and the Ashaman will have a chance to fight in the last battle with going mad.<br /><br />2) You said &quot;I think it means Rand is to Heal Avendesora.&quot;<br />Well, when he was in Rhuidean with Avendesora. The tree was alive and well. What needed to be healed exactly???<br /><br />3) The &quot;cutting of hope&quot; quote occurs at the beginning of TDR Chp 6. So when you say &quot;1) Avendesora ACTUALLY SHOWS UP! in TSR&quot; how does that have any relevance? It's not even the same book. <br /><br />4) You also said &quot;which made everyone wonder when they gave Avendoraldera to Cairhien (and implies that someone actually went to Rhuidean to do something other then become a Wise One or Chief, but let's not go there...&quot; Well the cutting of Avendesora was given to the Cairheinen before the Jenn Aiel settled Rhuidean, so none of the other Aiel went to Rhuidean other than to become a Wise One or clan chief.<br /><br />


created: 2009-01-18 18:55:36
subject: <b>Prophesy is strange</b>
body:
Moraine is speaking generally about the KC.  The actual line in the prophesy may not have to be near each other at all.  She may know that 2 parts of the KC mention he will heal something so she placed them next to each other for the purpose of the conversation. Perhaps not but we cant be sure either way.<br /><br />I think that the madness part is the healing of the taint and we are yet to see a healing of the cutting of hope.  I dont think it is the tree but...  and dont think that the taint quite relates to the hope very well.<br /><br /><b>Looney theory alert</b><br />Maybee its somewhere in the &quot;to live you must die&quot; and &quot;the great battle done but the world still not done with battle&quot; parts if he dies then the worlds hope would be cut but he still lives somehow and comes back and says hey he i am &quot;tadah&quot; hope healed game over.


created: 2009-01-18 21:01:55
subject: <b>Wounds of madness really seams to be important...</b>
body:
Okay, maybe the proximity to 'wounds of madness' is important. I only theorized this because chora cuttings were the only literal cuttings to show up in the entire series, plus the Jenn seemed to see them as symbols of hope. <br /><br />TSR, CH 25;<br />&quot;The Trees of Life... Three little trees planted in barrels. They [the Jenn] care for them almost as well as they do for themselves. When they find a place of safety, they mean to plant them; they say the old days will return, then...&quot; <br /><br />Reads like a symbol of hope to me. And they actually got to plant it. No reason why the prophecies can't be literal instead of figurative. There's the <i>damane</i>='broken chains' thing, after all...<br /><br />To <b>Owyn Reborn</b><br />Actually, I think the chains thing is about Asmodean, what with the 'chain[ing] the Shadowsworn to his will' in TSR (chapter 4, around page 131 or so)...<br /><br />To <b>TheSilverFox</b><br />Actually, in book 5, Avendesora looks pretty dead, collateral damage from Rand and Asmodean's fight. Moiraine says it's still alive, but anyone who looks at it probably thinks it's dead...<br /><br />Also, the Aiel gave Cairhien Avendoraldera within only 500 years within the present day, way after the Jenn were dead and gone.<br /><br />------------------<br /><br />Not dead set on this theory, just offering a reply. By all means, disabuse me of it. I'm slightly inclined to agree with the cleansing saidin thing, though for linguistic reasons. Consider the OT word 'Nor', from 'Shadar Nor'. It means either 'cut' or 'sever'. The latter is used as an AOL term for being cut off from the Source. Inability to access saidin safely might have been regarded as a sort of mass severing...<br /><br />Of course, I am required to stick with my theory nonetheless...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">As a fanfic Writer, I am grateful for Kingdom Hearts. It makes writing about Randland so much easier...</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-24 16:04:30
subject: <b>Inventive, but no...</b>
body:
I think it ties in with the tainted source for male Aes Sedai. Rand healed that. The end. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-01-26 13:52:32
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
i actually like this theory. let's look at the bigger picture.<br /><br />rand is to heal the 'wounds of madness' and the 'cuttings of hope' (in one sentence). this can be point towards cairhein and the aiel. the division between the aiel and the west came after laman (a crazy man obsessed with power) cut down avandoraldera. avandoraldera was a cutting, and this sentence/prophecy could be expanded to mean that he will mend relations with the aiel and other randlanders.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2009-06-05 07:14:14
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
I am positive its the clearing of the Taint the healing of the wounds of madness and the cutting of hope.<br />The hope to get to the last Battle for Rand the Ashaman and the world. The reason Rand cleaned it was that it was the only option left to avoid a epidemic of Male channelers going crazy, Which would have become soon a second breaking of the world.


created: 2009-01-18 12:57:39
subject: <b>Vulgar Tongue</b>
body:
The language used currently, I believe you called it Randlander, was referred to as the Vulgar tongue. In the Age of Legends, Aes Sedai, scholars, and nobles probably used the Old tongue, and commoners used the vulgar. It is not a stretch of the imagination to believe that the Forsaken could not communicate with commoners in their own Age. I believe that is how they can easily communicate with people in this Age.<br />As to you question about how they are able to jump into the world and able to influence events immediately. First off, they were some the most powerful Aes Sedai in their Age, with all the knowledge (good and bad) of using the Power. It wouldn't be hard to compel a few people (Rahvin, Sammael, Graendal) and gain power. <br />Also, you forget that Ishamael was loose the whole time. And I'm fairly certain that the Naeblis would be making reports to the Dark One over the course of that time. I think the DO would have given the Forsaken who were imprisoned some information after their release. And before you ask how Ishamael communicated with the DO, remember that the DO while still imprisoned has called Demandred, Graendal, and others to Shayol Ghul to &quot;speak&quot; with them.


created: 2009-01-18 13:05:31
subject: <b>Absolutely</b>
body:
How he (mis)treats language is one of the major, major issues I have with RJ's world.<br /><br />And it's not just the Forsaken.<br /><br />Especially with all the turmoil in Randland's history, the different regions should bloody well speak different languages or at least dialects with truly distinct vocabularies and grammatical structures, not just accents and the odd new word for things that don't exist in the other regions. I mean, we real humans give perfectly everyday things like trousers different names on the two sides of the pond...<br /><br />Then the Aiel. They had hardly any contact with the &quot;mainland&quot; for I don't know how long, and they speak the same language too. (And what's with all the twisted words from Real World? The <i>zemai</i> and <i>algode</i> and whatnot? If it's maize, <i>call</i> it maize, and if it's not, please be more friggin' imaginative...)<br /><br />Not to mention the Seanchan, who had been away for 2000 years on a completely different continent. And the only thing that differs about their usage of the language is a few words from the Old Tongue.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*sigh*<br /><br />Language is one of my pet WoT peeves, so eh... sorry for being so ranty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-18 17:51:33
subject: <b>I just can't buy it</b>
body:
Regardless what RJ says, there are problems with the claimed homogeneity of the language in Randland. Jordan simplifies the playing field by positing a mono-lingual society in the AoL as opposed to the multi-lingual structure of old Europe. Well and good, we&#8217;ll level the complexities by concentrating on a single language: English. And, since we&#8217;re dealing with a fictional story here, we&#8217;ll use fictional literature for our example. Anyone wanting to send shivers of trepidation down the spine of a college English major need merely mention having to read Geoffrey Chaucer&#8217;s <i>Canterbury Tales</i>, which have been fairly reliably dated as being &#8220;published&#8221; around 1380A.D.-1400A.D.<br /><br />Though it is agreed that Chaucer wrote the <i>Tales</i> in a rather formal style of English, wading through it is still a horrible chore for anyone but a seasoned expert. It exemplifies the way the language was used, at least among the literati of the period, notably the clergy and the nobility (we won&#8217;t get into the differences between that and the &#8216;common tongue&#8217; just yet).<br /><br />Johann Gutenberg, is credited with inventing the printing press as of 1439A.D. Speed of language drift is variable based on circumstances, but Jordan&#8217;s proposition says that having the printing press available from the start is what homogenize the language in Randland, either preventing drift (implying the language changed so little it is effectively unchanged), or slowed so greatly that the Forsaken had no problem understanding it in its entirety from the moment they were released from the Bore). Both propositions are absurd. English did not cease to change from the moment Gutenberg&#8217;s invention began churning. If anything, the language went through a period of rapid change as anyone who was anyone with influence on the issue began trying to figure out how to simplify  and formalize regional differences in spelling, syntax, etc.<br /><br />Compare Thomas Mallory&#8217;s <i>La Morte d&#8217;Arthur</i> (first printed in 1485) to Chaucer&#8217;s <i>Tales</i>. There is approximately a century between writings but the <i>Tales</i> are done roughly half a century before the press is introduced, while <i>La Morte</i> roughly half a century after. The two are noticeably different, with the more recent <i>La Morte</i> being notably closer to &#8220;modern&#8221; English than the older <i>Tales</i>.<br /><br />As time passed the English language eventually &#8220;stabilized&#8221; to a certain extent, but it continued to morph, albeit slowly. Looking at Jordan&#8217;s claim even closer, we see that he fails to account for the two most common and influential reasons for language drift over time: trade and geographic isolation. Trade is a cause of rapid change. With trade, the languages of the various trading partners will absorb words, terms and even concepts from each other to facilitate the activity. It is a dynamic and powerful influence. Geographic isolation on the other hand makes change slow. For all of this it is no less dramatic. Heavily isolated languages can become so altered from original roots languages that linking them to that original root can take years of study by a trained philologist or linguist.<br /><br />Trade within Randland itself is fairly homogenous and one can easily see how merchants travel far and wide carrying not only wares, but news. Communication with trading partners spreads information and this communication of words and ideas helps keep the language stable to a point. If this were they only trade going on in Randland, they would be classifiable as a geographically isolated language and their language drift would be slow, perhaps slow enough to account for the situation RJ paints. But, there are more than one external trading influences, each which has had to have had its own influence as well. <br /><br />First are the Sharans. They are heavily isolated geographically, by choice, since the Breaking, three thousand years ago. That isolation is so rabid it borders on quarantine. They have two trading zones outsiders may use. One is along the Cliffs of Dawn [check the Guide map on p. 152 again as well as the trade information given on in the section on Shara] they have a few &#8216;trading posts&#8217; which trade with the Aiel. Information on the extent of this trade and for how long it has been happening is so limited it might as well be non-existent. The impact of those two languages on each other is uncertain, but we can surmise that at least some of the difference between the way the language is spoken by the Aiel and Randlanders at the time of Rand&#8217;s trip to the Waste can be attributed to this trade drift. Impact on the Sharan&#8217;s is unknown and perhaps unknowable. The other Sharan trading area is along their coast. Their trade here is with the Sea Folk whose impact in the Sharan language is also unknown. The trade impact on the Sea Folk language is also mostly unknown as they give little clue about the issue.<br /> <br />As to the Aiel, their language suffered heavy geographic isolation (except for trade with Shara) until they allowed the Cairhienin to trade across the Waste because of Avendoraldera. They made that gift in 566NE, roughly 430 years ago, so they had over 2,500 years of isolation drift before that time. Differences in speech between Aiel and Randlander, as we see it in the stories, is due to the combined effect of their 2.5 millennia isolation followed by five centuries of limited trade westward. And, yes, I do say limited trade because other than &#8220;peddlers&#8221; and Gleemen, the only trade west the Aiel have had, and thus the only trade impact on language from the west, has been as a result of the Cairhienin. That alone limits the impact itself because the Aiel get no exposure to other trading partners and their language differences, however small they may be.<br /><br />Next we have the Sea Folk. They trade with every Randland port and with Shara. As indicated above, language impacts between Sea Folk and Shara are very limited to unknown. As to language drift impact with Randlander, we do not know much, but we can surmise some. Like with the Aiel, whose manner of speaking is notably different from Randlander, the Sea Folk also have unusual syntax, concepts, etc. Their role in language drift is uncertain because they&#8217;ve acted mostly as a buffer between Shara and Randland, not as an agent of change. The average Randlander hardly even believes Shara real, to say nothing of having heard anything about how they speak. So the best we can say is that the Sea Folk have suffered the most language drift as a result of interaction with Shara, and that the level of  effect on  Randlander cannot be determined; not that there was no effect, just that it's level is indeterminate.<br /><br />The last to look at is the Seanchan. They are of Randland root stock but have suffered a thousand years of geographic isolation from Randland and the same time period of alteration to their language due to their intensive contact with the natives who lived in Seanchan when Hawkwing&#8217;s armies showed up. It is a conglomerate language, possibly a polyglot, or should be. Looking in the COT-WOTFAQ, p. 198, we see that RJ responded to a fan letter question concerning the regional accents in Randland and gave an approximate equivalency list of what the speech of various areas should/would sound like to our ears. The list is quite diverse and interesting. It is reproduced it here:<br /><br />Two Rivers &#8211; Irish/English<br />Illianers &#8211; Dutch<br />Aiel &#8211; somewhat Slavic<br />Tairen &#8211; Spanish<br />Domani &#8211; Indian<br />Saldaean &#8211; Egyptian/North African<br />Seanchan &#8211; Texas (&#8220;Y&#8217;all bow down to the Empress, y&#8217;hear?&#8221;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Even this list, from Jordan&#8217;s own hand, indicates what a wide drift has occurred in the language of Randland itself, even with their printing press induced &#8216;stabilization&#8217;. The various regional &#8216;accents&#8217; are quite different one form another. One can imagine the communication difficulties between the Saldeans and Illianers, or the Domani and Andorans. The mind almost quails. The most interesting point, though, is the Seanchan. Though they seem to have kept their language relatively intact despite the drift pressures already discussed, their essential pattern of speech is so different it almost becomes another language anyway. The difference between &#8220;King&#8217;s English&#8221;, as seems to be spoken in Andor, and the thick southern drawl (noted in many instances within the stories) of Texas is vast. Yeah, they can communicate, but it takes some effort. And the difference between the two is in spite of the fact that both have maintained nearly constant contact since a political schism separated them only about 300 years ago, not 1,000!<br /><br />We also have multiple citations within the stories about how different the &#8220;Old Tongue&#8221; is from contemporary Randlander. Even Aes Sedai like Moiraine admit that the two are so different that cross-translation is very difficult. Meanings are uncertain, making interpretation dicey at best. The Forsaken supposedly speak Old Tongue fluently; it is after all their native birth language. Colloquial Randlander, however, is grossly different from that root language, to say nothing of the regional accent variations listed above.<br /><br />My whole &#8220;theory&#8221; or comment on this stems from the concept that the Forsaken, from a standing start, manage to overcome three thousand years of language drift. That drift may have been slowed by the &#8220;printing press&#8221; idea to an extent but it has also been influenced in other ways; most of it indeterminable within the frame of the storyline. How did they do it? How did they manage to begin speaking colloquial Randlander so quickly and so well that they can copy not only the basic language itself, but all those accents&#8230; including Seanchan&#8230; and in Graendal&#8217;s case, she not only manages the Domani from her hiding place but nails the Sharan one as well!?!<br /><br />I have a very, very tough time believing this. Yeah, I know, &#8220;willing suspension of disbelief.&#8221; That only goes so far. One has to have a minimum foundation of stable &#8216;facts&#8217; on which to base such a story. This one goes beyond my threshold of acceptance.<br /><br />For those who still doubt, let&#8217;s look at another example, one that looks at that &#8216;common tongue&#8217; mentioned so long ago. Take <i>My Fair Lady</i>, the story of an English phonetics professor who attempts to teach a Cockney flower girl to speak &#8220;properly&#8221;, at least well enough to make her presentable to &#8220;high society.&#8221; The point with this example is that the two characters, Professor Higgins and Liza Doolittle, are both in London, yet they both speak vastly different &#8216;dialects&#8217; of the same language. There is no geographic isolation involved. There is not &#8216;trade&#8217; impact. Both versions of the language have grown together century after century, yet they might as well be totally different languages. If two people who grew up in the same city at the same time can speak the same language yet versions of those languages that are as amazingly different as Cockney and &#8220;King&#8217;s English&#8221;, how can anyone presume that the language of a region the size of the whole of Europe can maintain a single language that manages to remain homogenous within itself, but also manages to simultaneously change by:<br /><br />a) such a large degree that the spoken version of the Old Tongue is almost unintelligible to contemporary natives, yet;<br />b) such a small degree that people who grew up learning it can speak the contemporary version, right down to regional accents, with no trouble whatsoever.<br /><br />Sorry, boys and girls, I don&#8217;t buy it and never will.<br />


created: 2009-01-18 19:13:48
subject: <b>Super Semi</b>
body:
<b>My Looney Theory</b><br /><br />Ishmael was in and out all the time so he is covered.<br /><br />He hangs around as the others get released.  <br />the first 2 because they had Ishy to teach them on his in cycles because they were only partially bound.<br /><br />Semihage was the next to be relased and Ishy had brought in a swag of random kidnapped nobles from every nation and she mind melded them like she did to &quot;Cabrenne Mendes&quot; or whatever her name was. Then as each FS came out from their deep sleep she melded the world's info into them and they had another garden party then a coffee hour and then off to play.<br /><br />Completely acceptable <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2009-01-18 19:37:46
subject: <b>gifted forsaken</b>
body:
You're all conveniently forgetting that these are the most gifted intellectuals of their time. A time of incomparable sophistication to modern Randland. How long do you think it would take somebody to learn an entirely new language?<br />It could be done in months if the person applied all his efforts and intelligence to it. Furthermore, the forsaken had been loose for an unspecified time before showing themselves. Enough time to learn language and customs, if you ask me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 05:49:48
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
You are worried about language discrepancies in a world where people can tap into the driving force of the universe, channel it into magical beams that can do impossibly wonderous and equally terrible feats? Dont forget the world of dreams, ogier, to'raken, and raken...well we all know about the impossible subjects in the book. I know exactly how the forsaken can speak &quot;randland&quot;...magic! While you're focusing on why reality doesn't effect a fantastical world tell me this; why is the continent so small? I have often thought that the continent in relation to people and travel time was very dispoportionate...relax owyn, I am just havin fun with ya. As always your theories are well thought out and a delight to read.


created: 2009-01-19 10:13:33
subject: <b>simplicity</b>
body:
Remeber exactly what RJ has written, twelve odd books with so many sub-plots, counter-plots and red herrings in them, all of that intrigue, all of those characters to keep track of. Then have about 20 languages to work out, stopping you from speaking to ayone except someone from the same area as your PoV character (unless everyone knows 20 languages by heart, which I seriously doubt). Just stop looking into this too much, and accept that things are slightly different in different places but, for the sake of the story, everyone has one language in common that everyone can use, allowing them all to interact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'til shade is gone, 'til water is gone, yeah, yeah, bring on Tarmon Gai'don already! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 11:26:47
subject: <b>Various responses</b>
body:
For Squocka;<br /><br />I&#8217;ll tackle your &#8220;Looney Theory&#8221; this way. Your points are as follows:<br /><br />1)	Ishmael was in and out all the time so he is covered.<br /><br />This is understood. It&#8217;s taken for granted that Ishy was out and about, at least occasionally, doing as much devil-may-care damage as he could. I have no problem with him. As I said in my original post, even Lews Therin and the Horn Heroes I can give a pass on.<br /><br />2) He hangs around as the others get released. The first 2 because they had Ishy to teach them on his in cycles because they were only partially bound.<br /><br />This would imply that he not only knows where they are (very probably) but WHEN they will be released so he can be there when it happens. This is somewhat weak; it may explain Aginor and Balthamel, but it&#8217;s a long reach. We have no information of how conscious they were during their imprisonment. For all we know they had a view of that 3K years as though it were on 50 or 200. That kind of distorted view would hardly lend itself to linguistic study. Lanfear  says (tDR, Ch 36, Daughter of the Night,  paperpack p. 410) &#8220;Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an <u>endless, dreamless sleep</u>.&#8221; She obviously wasn&#8217;t learning any languages there. Others are in the same case. In fact Aginor and Balthamel are the only two we know of that were harmed by their imprisonment. All the others woke looking and feeling fine from everything we&#8217;ve been given. They were all physically fit, and mentally no different than they were when they went in.<br /><br />3) Semihage was the next to be released and Ishy had brought in a swag of random kidnapped nobles from every nation and she mind melded them like she did to &quot;Cabrenne Mendes&quot; or whatever her name was.<br /><br />This is where I start having serious problems. This would imply that the Forsaken get along well enough to do such things for each other. There is very little evidence of this. They can work together to an extent, for limited periods, but can you see Ishy actually playing &#8220;Stepin Fetchit&#8221; [read the IMDB.com bio for understanding] for any of the other Forsaken? I sure don&#8217;t. Besides, when you say she &#8220;was the next to be released&#8221; do you know how long that was after events in tEotW? Days, months? We have no solid information, only guesses. Her positioning as Anath, Tuon&#8217;s &#8220;Truth Speaker&#8221; among the Seanchan would mean she concentrated on that particular accent/dialect and would have had to do so very intensively to get it right or be revealed to people who could out-channel her and destroy her. That would leave her less time to work on other accents and consequently less convincing with them.<br /><br />4)	Then as each FS came out from their deep sleep she melded the world's info into them and they had another garden party then a coffee hour and then off to play.<br /><br />This is another proposition that the Forsaken will actually work together at this level for this kind of mutual benefit. I can see Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin telling the others to go to the pit of doom before they share any knowledge, or accept weaves being tossed at them, regardless the proposed purpose. They wouldn&#8217;t buy it. Neither would Moggy, or Mesaana&#8230; and especially not Lanfear. We have multiple example of &#8220;coffee hours&#8221; with the Forsaken in which one or more member is not present for various reasons (dead don&#8217;t count). Mesaana is too busy in the WT to make it, Moggy never shows up because she&#8217;s too afraid of the others, Rahvin&#8217;s having too much fun with his pretties to bother, Demandred doesn&#8217;t believe the situation necessitates a meeting about it&#8230;.whatever.<br /><br />5) Completely acceptable<br /><br />I don&#8217;t think so.<br /><br />For Black Comedy;<br /><br />No I wasn&#8217;t forgetting it. In fact, I asked the original post if this is a possible solution. The very last sentence of my post says, &#8220;Either they&#8217;re all truly impressive linguists &#8211; every one of them with photographic memories &#8211; and the off-the-cuff way they accomplish this feat is indicative of just how really good (and scary) they are&#8230;&#8221;<br /><br />It hasn&#8217;t been discounted, I just wanted to see how many people really thinks this is a viable answer.<br /><br />For Malkieri Dai Shan; <br /><br />Maybe he could have used it as an excuse to shorted some scenes to make room for this? I don&#8217;t know.  But, it would be a lot more believable that way, at least to me.<br />


created: 2009-01-19 16:40:59
subject: <b>Here's RJ's explanation</b>
body:
From the TOR Q &amp; A:<br /><br /><b>Week 14 Question:</b> <i>If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?</i><br /><br /><b>Robert Jordan Answers:</b> <i>&quot;They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.<br /><br />For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken &quot;here and now&quot; was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of &quot;today.&quot;</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 16:58:14
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Of All the things to nitpick in WOT, you choose the evolution of language? Because you don't find that small portion believable? C'mon man, it's a story, relax.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 17:06:51
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
I voted yes, because technically you are absolutely right.<br /><br />However, as has already been pointed out, this is a piece of fantasy literature. In the vast majority of cases, the assumption seems to be by most authors that the main working language out there is English; why should RJ have to make his story even more complex and difficult than it already is?<br /><br />If you really want something irritating, then Will Smith's introduction of what I recall as a DOS-based virus to bring the aliens crashing down in Independance Day absolutely mind-boggling. They even used the same connectors to allow a laptop to hook into their main-frame.<br /><br />&quot;Superior Intelligence&quot;?<br /><br />Give me the far more believable One Power any day <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-01-19 17:50:28
subject: <b>Attn: Owyn Reborn</b>
body:
I know that jokes always don't always translate very well into text but i had hoped that people would see the funny side of my response &quot;coffee hour&quot; &quot;garden party&quot;, &quot;mind melded&quot; which is also why i entitled it &quot;Looney Theory&quot;  it was not meant to be serious enough to generate a response.<br />


created: 2009-01-19 17:52:46
subject: <b>Still stinks</b>
body:
<b>Black comedy:</b><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're all conveniently forgetting that these are the most gifted intellectuals of their time. A time of incomparable sophistication to modern Randland. How long do you think it would take somebody to learn an entirely new language?<br />It could be done in months if the person applied all his efforts and intelligence to it. Furthermore, the forsaken had been loose for an unspecified time before showing themselves. Enough time to learn language and customs, if you ask me.&quot;</i><br /><br />Umm, no. What <i>you</i> are forgetting is that gifted intellectual != language prodigy, in any age. If my own experience is anything to go by, it's not that simple.<br /><br />I'm Hungarian, and, as far as I know, fairly good with languages. I started learning English when I was... four, I think. I went to a high school where most subjects were taught in English, and some of the teachers were native speakers. Now I'm 22, spending my third year at a Scottish university. I <i>still</i> get shades of meaning wrong and have to look up idioms and I still have a noticeable (and definitely not Scottish) accent. Yes, I communicate with ease and I can write really sophisticated essays and whatever, but any native English speaker would spot I'm a foreigner as soon as I opened my mouth. I think it's very rare for real people to be able to learn a language and pass for a native as adults.<br /><br /><b>astof:</b><br /><br /><i>&quot;You are worried about language discrepancies in a world where people can tap into the driving force of the universe, channel it into magical beams that can do impossibly wonderous and equally terrible feats?&quot;</i><br /><br />Well, eh... worlds should still be realistic within a certain framework. If that includes magic that preserves language, then that <i>should show up in the text</i>. (And that's not the explanation RJ gives anyway)<br /><br /><b>Malkieri Dai Shan:</b><br /><br /><i>&quot;Remeber exactly what RJ has written, twelve odd books with so many sub-plots, counter-plots and red herrings in them, all of that intrigue, all of those characters to keep track of. Then have about 20 languages to work out, stopping you from speaking to ayone except someone from the same area as your PoV character (unless everyone knows 20 languages by heart, which I seriously doubt). Just stop looking into this too much, and accept that things are slightly different in different places but, for the sake of the story, everyone has one language in common that everyone can use, allowing them all to interact.&quot;</i><br /><br />Sorry, I can't accept that as an excuse. If he spent decades fleshing out a world then he could have thought of a way to cope with diverse languages. Like... I don't know, characters actually having difficulties making themselves understood. There are so many plot opportunities in that, I can only guess that RJ was just lazy to tackle them.<br /><br /><b>RJ's explanation:</b><br /><br /><i>&quot;For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken &quot;here and now&quot; was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of &quot;today.&quot;</i><br /><br />I seriously doubt Italian is &quot;more complex&quot; than Latin, though my knowledge of Italian derives from my very rudimentary Latin and my somewhat better Spanish.<br /><br />I don't think the complexity of most languages could be objectively compared anyway. For example, mine has, I think, 10+ noun cases (luckily you don't actually have to learn them in school <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) and complicated verb conjugation. English doesn't have all those, but it uses prepositions and personal pronouns to convey the same meanings. So which of those solutions is more complex?<br /><br />As for nuances, I'd bet a large sum that every single language has them. If modern Randlandian doesn't, that's another sign of a divorce from realism. Furthermore, any two languages are probably nuanced in different ways. So speaking a language with many nuances won't make things that much easier.<br /><br />And again, we run into the problem of learning a language versus passing as a native speaker. I'm sure a Roman citizen could learn Italian easier than I could, but I'm also sure he couldn't get rid of his accent that easily (although I'd appreciate the insight of someone who actually learnt a closely related language there - Italians speaking Spanish or something like that).<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, as someone else has said we repeatedly get told that the difference between the OT and modern Randlandian is soooooo vast... I don't think anyone would say that about Latin and Italian.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 18:05:07
subject: <b>Fantasy or not...</b>
body:
<i>&quot;However, as has already been pointed out, this is a piece of fantasy literature. In the vast majority of cases, the assumption seems to be by most authors that the main working language out there is English; why should RJ have to make his story even more complex and difficult than it already is?&quot;</i><br /><br />... it must still feel realistic. And by that, I don't mean fantasy stories shouldn't have magic, but that things that aren't covered by the magic, or by (explained!) different physical laws should not behave in completely implausible ways. <br /><br />Would you accept three-year-old girls giving birth just so the main characters can interact with someone at a certain point in the story and still know his mother as a beautiful young woman? It's the same kind of convenient solution that blows suspension of disbelief to little bloody shreds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-19 21:31:34
subject: <b>Gifted</b>
body:
There's a british savant who taught himself icelandic in a week<br /><br />Given a few weeks or months it is plausable, with a lot of hard work, that the intelligent forsaken could learn the vulgar tongue, especially considering that it is derived from OT<br /><br />And given the approxiamate equivalents to the accents, i believe its possible to learn these accents<br /><br />Using the OP it would be easy for the Forsaken to get into a position to learn the language, culture and history<br /><br />However, the homogeneity of the language covering the world does seem almost impossible. It does make things easier, though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">From the tintinnabulating lactomangulator who has hippotomonstrosousquppedaliophobia<br /><br />Hab SoSlI' Quch! <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-20 05:20:31
subject: <b>homogeneous language</b>
body:
We don't actually know that language is homogeneous over the entire world. Only that it's homogeneous over the westlands. <br />Languages tend to branch off primarily through geographic isolation. If you look at the westlands, no one area can be truly considered isolated aside from the aiel waste. The Aiel had been treating with Cairhien for years until the Aiel War, and seem to have a love of printed material from the westlands. As a result, while the language they use is primarily similar to the vulgar tongue, they tend to have a weakness with water-related terms and concepts. <br />Elsewhere, the language is primarily the same but with differences in accent and intonation. The tongue used by the Seanchan for all we know might be used primarily in the court of the Empress(she did not obviously live forever), brought there by Luthair and his court.<br />I'll agree that it's still stretching things a bit though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-20 12:32:27
subject: <b>Isolation...</b>
body:
<i>&quot;Languages tend to branch off primarily through geographic isolation. If you look at the westlands, no one area can be truly considered isolated aside from the aiel waste.&quot;</i><br /><br />You don't need that much isolation for languages to diverge. Consider the Romance languages of Europe - Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Occitan, French, Italian, Sardinian etc. Yes, there are mountain ranges or seas between some of them, but it's not like the Spanish never heard Catalan speakers since the downfall of the Roman Empire... They certainly weren't more isolated than the Aiel - who, cultural differences aside, seem to have no communication barrier with wetlanders.<br /><br />One other thing to consider about Randland is the sheer extent of historical turmoil that supposedly happened in its distant past. With a Breaking and Trolloc Wars and similar catastrophes, I highly doubt there would be a sufficiently interconnected population at all times for the language to stay that unified. Not to mention that cultures did manage to diverge to quite a large extent.<br /><br />There's actually another thing that bugs me about Randland's language, and that's the names. Fine, different regions have different naming customs. But I find it hard to believe that, say, Kwamesa and Moiraine could coexist in a language that didn't have contact with any other language for all of its known history.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-20 16:57:34
subject: <b>good thinking BUT?</b>
body:
While they are locked in the bore I am sure that thhey were still in contact with the big bad.He probably kept them up to speed with the times.And as you said they are very smart peaple .Can you imagine the pain they suffer for learning to slow?Who knows ?Good theary&gt;


created: 2009-01-20 17:18:52
subject: <b>More argement against miracles</b>
body:
Yes, Jordan said,<blockquote><i>&#8220;I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already.&#8221;</i></blockquote>But, there is a small problem with this statement; it is very qualified. It refers to a &#8220;well educated and highly intelligent&#8221; person doing the learning. Let&#8217;s look at the Forsaken and see how many of them fit that qualification.<blockquote>During the AOL, many Aes Sedai turned to the Dark Side. The Guide tells us that: &#8230; the best of them were given power and ability beyond that of others.&#8230; Among themselves they were known as &#8216;Those Chosen to Rule the World Forever,&#8217; or simply &#8216;the Chosen.&#8217; [Guide: 5, The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 49] In the Third Age, the term &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; is used to refer to the thirteen who were caught in the sealing of the Bore. According to the Guide [Guide: 5, The DO and the Male Forsaken, 50], those thirteen were the most powerful of the Chosen.</blockquote>Keep in mind that this says the Chosen/Forsaken were the <b>most powerful</b>, not necessarily the <b>most intelligent</b>. This is an important point.<br /><br />The following are distillations of the bios quoted from the COT-WOTFAQ (v7.0), printed January 2004, p.10. This FAQ itself is distilled from the Guide, information directly out of the books, and Jordan&#8217;s various commentaries on the Forsaken.<br /><br /><b>Aginor</b>: <u>Famous</u> Biologist. Certainly well educated and presumably &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221;. You don&#8217;t become &#8220;famous&#8221; unless you&#8217;re really good at what you do. So, he/she/it matches the criteria without equivocation.<br />Score &#8211; 1 pass, 0 fail<br /><br /><b>Asmodean</b>: Composer and musician. Probably well educated (can anyone say Eddie Van Halen?), but whether &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221; could be arguable. His failure to achieve the acclaim he desired was his primary reason for turning to the Shadow. That failure might well be attributable to a nascent lack of the &#8220;high&#8221; intelligence&#8221; Jordan references.<br />Score &#8211; 1 pass, 1 fail<br /><br /><b>Balthamel</b>: Historian. No doubt well educated, and very probably &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221;, but there is room for quibbling. The lack of a superlative like &#8220;noted&#8221;, &#8220;famous&#8221;, &#8220;brilliant&#8221;, etc., before his occupation lends strongly towards the more commonplace. But, for sake of fairness, we&#8217;ll give him a pass.<br />Score &#8211; 2 pass, 1 fail<br /><br /><b>Be&#8217;lal</b>: Lawyer. Certainly well educated. &#8220;Highly intelligent&#8221; may be arguable. A great number of lawyers ply their trades for a lifetime without being &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221; That&#8217;s usually refers to men like Clarence Darrow, Dick DeGuerin, William Jennings Bryan, Studs Terkel, Alexis de Tocqueville, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Jim Garrison, Mohandas K. Ghandi, Robert F. Kennedy, among others. We do not have enough information to determine if Be&#8217;lal, during his legal career, rated (intellectually) with these sorts of men, but given the intellectual rigors of such an occupation, and to seem fair, we&#8217;ll give him a pass.<br />Score &#8211; 3 pass, 1 fail<br /><br /><b>Demandred</b>: Little information to go on, but as he was &#8220;second only to LTT&#8221;, we&#8217;ll give him credit on both the &#8220;well educated&#8221; and the &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221;, though his personal insistence that he was smarter than LTT, despite a majority of other people&#8217;s contrary opinion lends a lot of elbow room to the argument. The mere fact that all the &#8220;Where in the world is Demandred San Diego?&#8221; sleuths have yet to pin down where he&#8217;s gone&#8221; I&#8217;m willing to credit him with some brains.<br />Score &#8211; 4 pass, 1 fail<br /><br /><b>Graendal</b>: Psychiatrist. Certainly well educated and very probably &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221;. In my experience, though, most people who enter the mental health field (particularly as doctors) are at least as troubled as their patients, many more so. But, as there is indeed a fine line between genius and insanity, we&#8217;ll give her credit for brains.<br />Score &#8211; 5 pass, 1 fail<br /><br /><b>Ishamael</b>: Philosopher. Certainly &#8220;well educated&#8221; and doubtless &#8220;highly intelligent.&#8221;<br />Score &#8211; 6 pass, 1 fail<br /><br /><b>Lanfear</b>: Researcher. Certainly &#8220;well educated&#8221; but &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221; is very arguable &#8211; especially with how she&#8217;s allowed her obsession with LTT to cloud her judgment so badly. She&#8217;s tenacious, certainly, but a genius? Her current position, mind-trapped slavery to Moridin, argues strongly otherwise.<br />Score &#8211; 6 pass, 2 fail<br /><br /><b>Mesaana</b>: Teacher. Certainly &#8220;well educated&#8221;, but &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221; is questionable. We&#8217;ll give her credit for her effective machinations in the WT.<br />Score &#8211; 7 pass, 2 fail<br /><br /><b>Moghedien</b>: Investment advisor: Perhaps reasonably &#8220;well educated&#8221; but probably not nearly as well as most of the others. As to &#8220;highly intelligent&#8221;, her best claim is having enough sense not to challenge any of the other Forsaken openly, and her ability to run an effective spy network. That&#8217;s not much of a resume given the hurdle Jordan set up.<br />Score &#8211; 7 pass, 3 fail<br /><br /><b>Rahvin</b>: Nothing to go on. From lack of specific information we can only presume that his &#8220;education&#8221; and &#8220;intelligence&#8221; are no more than average for the period.<br />Score &#8211; 7 pass, 4 fail<br /><br /><b>Sammael</b>: Athlete (I believe the Guide actually says &#8220;noted sportsman&#8221; ). If our modern day is any indication both &#8220;education&#8221; and &#8220;intelligence&#8221; are dubious prerequisites for success in such endeavors. Though most successful &#8220;sportsmen&#8221; are reasonably well educated and reasonably intelligent, they rarely match the sort of intellectual standards applied to the kind of linguistic geniuses one would expect from Jordan&#8217;s statement.<br />Score &#8211; 7 pass, 5 fail<br /><br /><b>Semirhage</b>: &#8220;Brilliant&#8221; healer. Given the superlative, both &#8220;well educated&#8221; and &#8220;highly Intelligent&#8221;.<br />Score &#8211; 8 pass, 5 fail<br /><br />If we remove Ishamael from the mix because he&#8217;s been keeping track all along, that leaves a 7:5 ratio. If we give Aginor and Balthamel both credit for being &#8220;partially&#8221; awake and keeping up as voyeurs, two more get removed from the ratio, making it a 5:5 even split. So we see half of the remaining Forsaken could possibly do what&#8217;s proposed, but half probably couldn&#8217;t. But wait, there&#8217;s more! If we reverse our position on those we credited with a pass merely because we weren&#8217;t willing to argue the point (Demandred and Be&#8217;lal), we now have a 3:5 ratio of Forsaken with intellects capable of doing what&#8217;s proposed. If we raise the bar of doubt just a little further, we have to remove Mesaana as well, leaving only two of seven of the forsaken clearly capable of pulling this stunt off: Semirhage and Graendal.<br /><br />Also, we still have the proposition of the various dialects. <u>Naroia</u> puts it rather succinctly with:<blockquote>I'm Hungarian, and, as far as I know, <b>fairly good with languages</b>. I <u>started learning English when I was... <i>four</i></u>, I think. I went to a high school where most subjects were taught in English, and some of the teachers were native speakers. Now I'm 22, spending my third year at a Scottish university. <b>I <i>still</i> get shades of meaning wrong</b> and have to look up idioms and I still have a noticeable (and definitely not Scottish) accent. Yes, I communicate with ease and I can write really sophisticated essays and whatever, but <b>any native English speaker would spot I'm a foreigner as soon as I opened my mouth</b>. I think it's very rare for real people to be able to learn a language and pass for a native as adults. [emphasis added]<br /><br />And again, we run into the problem of learning a language versus <b>passing as a native speaker</b>. I'm sure a Roman citizen could learn Italian easier than I could, but I'm also sure he couldn't get rid of his accent that easily&#8230; [emphasis added]</blockquote>As a living example, he&#8217;s had 18+ years to learn English, yet still gets &#8220;shades of meaning&#8221; incorrect, and understands that his accent would give him away &#8220;<u>as soon as I opened my mouth</u>&#8221;. How do <b>all</b> the Forsaken get away with avoiding these problems, whether they are super-linguists or not?<br /><br />I still don&#8217;t buy it, and probably never will. I have no intention of denigrating Mr. Jordan or his work.<br /><br />I truly to believe that at some time in the future (50-75 years?) the WoT may well replace Tolkien&#8217;s tLotR as the greatest fantasy epic ever written. But, as with any human endeavor, none of us are perfect and I think this issue is the fly in the ointment that proves Jordan&#8217;s humanity.<br />


created: 2009-01-20 21:03:42
subject: <b>Not quite perfect speech</b>
body:
I agree that the FS seem to have picked the language up a bit to easy but here is a little evidence in favour of RJ.<br /><br />I am on a reread and just today got up to Winters Heart Chapter 17: Pink Ribbons<br /><br />Mat barges into Tylins apartment and Tuon is there.<br />Anath (Semirhage) speaks to Tuon and Mat notices that &quot;She doesn't quite have the slur of most Seanchan&quot;.<br /><br />So the fact that she can have such a high position and they don't care much about her accent means that RJ has at least tried to show they arn't perfect.


created: 2009-01-21 09:34:37
subject: <b>re: Not quite perfect speech</b>
body:
Interesting observation, to be sure. Though I hesitate to credit the idea too much, could this be how Moiraine identified Sammael as &#8220;Lord Brend&#8221; [tDR, Ch 43] and that Be&#8217;lal was &#8220;Lord Samon&#8221; [tDR, Ch 50]? She just asked around about who was using a faked or odd accent? Please&#8230; <br /><br />Mat certainly didn&#8217;t notice any dialect anomalies in Rahvin&#8217;s &#8220;Lord Gaebril&#8221;. Nor are we aware of any accent problems with Graendal masquerading as &#8220;Lady Basene&#8221; in Arad Domon. Nor is there any such case noted in the White Tower with Mesaana (certainly Alviarin would note this in her attempt to penetrate Mesaana&#8217;s disguise?). Did Rand, Hurin or Loial make any note of Lanfear speaking strangely? How about Hadnon Kadere? Does anyone make specific note that either Dashiva or Halima &#8220;talk funny&#8221;? Let me know, please.<br /><br />I can believe this comment helps identify Anath as Semirhage, it&#8217;s one clue about her specifically, just as Jordan gives specific clues about other individual  Forsaken and their hidden identities (when he&#8217;s not outright telling us who they are, as he did with Sammael and Be&#8217;lal). But I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s a general clue about problems all the Forsaken might be having imitating specific accents. It&#8217;s the only such comment I&#8217;m aware of and it is so brief and seems so targeted to that single character I can&#8217;t credit it with that broad an application.<br />


created: 2009-01-21 12:10:29
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
<i>&quot;You don&#8217;t become &#8220;famous&#8221; unless you&#8217;re really good at what you do.&quot;</i><br /><br />Or really loud <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Thinking of Richard Dawkins here... I'm not sure he'd be a famous biologist if he didn't write so much for the public)<br /><br /><i>&quot;As a living example, he&#8217;s had 18+ years to learn English...&quot;</i><br /><br />*whispers* <b>S</b>he <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(That's interesting. I thought my username sounded distinctly female)<br /><br /><i>&quot;I truly to believe that at some time in the future (50-75 years?) the WoT may well replace Tolkien&#8217;s tLotR as the greatest fantasy epic ever written.&quot;</i><br /><br />I personally hope nothing ever replaces TLotR. <br /><br />Not that I don't think WoT is a great fantasy epic, but (1) I think it's a completely different thing from TLotR, which is much more  an epic in novel format than an epic novel (just look at the style), (2) it's not nearly as close to the roots of the genre as LotR. (Actually, one of my first thoughts when I started EotW was &quot;Tolkien ripoff!&quot; )<br /><br />(and, in my very personal opinion, RJ made too many mistakes with WoT - both of this kind and general poor writing - to deserve the same status as Tolkien. But then I'm biased. TLotR was the first fantasy I read and it was powerful enough that I still mourn the fading of the elves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/drama.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />I could accept them to exist side by side as Classics of Fantasy, but if WoT replaced Tolkien's work then I'd weep for the wonders lost.<br /><br />Anyway,<br /><br />&lt;/irrelevant stuff&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-21 15:42:55
subject: <b>RE:....</b>
body:
Now we're quibbling.<br /><br />As for the gender gaff, sorry, but the handle wasn't a clue to me, and I don't check profiles for details.<br /><br />One can hope Tolkien remains the standard, but it will be increasingly difficult as the years pass. At one time, the muskett was considered the &quot;cutting edge&quot; of weapons; look what's happened in the interim. tLotR is still the &quot;definitive&quot; fantasy epic, but with enough time it will eventually get replaced. What's that quote about monkeys recreating the works of Shakespeare? It might take a while, but it is inevitable. *sigh*


created: 2009-01-21 17:42:58
subject: <b>More thoughts</b>
body:
OK if we really try and dig deep we can find things, as i said i think its a bit far fetched but there is at least a semblance of trying.<br /><br />QUOTE<br />&quot;<i>Mat certainly didn&#8217;t notice any dialect anomalies in Rahvin&#8217;s &#8220;Lord Gaebril&#8221;. </i><br /><br />Lord Gaebril arrives from the West Out Bearlon way it is discussed. Morgase recognises 2rivers speech on Rand but few other Andorans would.  baerlon and west would have different accents from Caemlyners as well.  He arrives and basically unties the whole city while morgase is away. Who would complain about a Lord from the West of Andor haveing a funny accent when he has just untied the city.  Plus his prolific use of compulsion no one high up would care.  Matt i can understand but he also comes much later after hes had more accent coaching (lol).<br /><br /><i>Nor are we aware of any accent problems with Graendal masquerading as &#8220;Lady Basene&#8221; in Arad Domon. </i><br /><br />Graendal use so much compulsion no one would know anything around her. The only one we really know who perhaps didn't get to much compulsion is Lord ituralde who is going to play a large part in the last book. (Will he be a Graendal puppet, or will he be King of Arad Doman)<br /><br /><i>Nor is there any such case noted in the White Tower with Mesaana (certainly Alviarin would note this in her attempt to penetrate Mesaana&#8217;s disguise?). </i><br /><br />The tower is full of people from every nation so accents arn't really a problem here.  Plus as Alviarin thinks if she is a little know sister with no friends who really would remember her and she would hardly talk very much.<br /><br /><i>Did Rand, Hurin or Loial make any note of Lanfear speaking strangely? </i><br /><br />I seem to recall that Loial thinks she is not really Cairihenen but doesn't really speak it out loud. (i could be wrong here but it did come to mind)<br /><br /><i>How about Hadnon Kadere?</i><br /><br />I though he was a random darkfriend  plus his POV's he thinks about killing his sister and then lanfear skins him.<br /><br /><i>Does anyone make specific note that either Dashiva or Halima &#8220;talk funny&#8221;? Let me know, please.</i><br /><br />Ashaman come from all over the world plus RJ said that both of them being only partially sealed could see segments of the world and kind of know what was going on.  Plus they are in new bodies, do you think that Balthamel speaks with his masculine voice in a female body i assume the thoughts are his but the voice comes out as the sound of the original owner.  We are talking completly different vocal chords.<br /><br />Anyway it has been fun remembering this stuff and at least it keeps me thinking so i can be ready for the last book.<br /><br />


created: 2009-01-21 19:37:21
subject: <b>re: More thoughts</b>
body:
Somehow you seem to be helping me make some of my points.<br /><br /><i>Lord Gaebril arrives from the West Out Bearlon way it is discussed.</i><br /><br />Part of my point. Morgase hasn&#8217;t heard 2R speech in over 20 years until Rand shows up. &#8220;You have not the look, but if a dim memory can serve me you have the Two Rivers on your tongue.&#8221; (Morgase to Rand, tEotW, Ch 40, The Web Tightens, p. 615). If a &#8220;dim memory&#8221; and a few minutes of &#8220;refresher&#8221; are all she gets, she can be forgiven for perhaps not noticing some difference in the two accents, heck she barely recognizes the one!. But Mat is a native of the area, at least generally, and should certainly recognize some sort of difference. He doesn&#8217;t, or at least we&#8217;re not told about it.<br /><br />Lord Ituralde aside, <i>&#8220;Graendel uses so much compulsion no one would know anything around her.</i> <br /><br />If she uses so much that her accent wouldn&#8217;t make a difference I presume her looks really wouldn&#8217;t either. Why then does she use the Mask of Mirrors to disguise herself from everybody but other Forsaken? I don&#8217;t think she&#8217;s being that heavy handed with the &#8220;normals&#8221;. She gets plenty of &#8220;play time&#8221; with her pets and let&#8217;s the rest ride.<br /><br />As for Ituralde, maybe he did pick up something and that&#8217;s why he&#8217;s laying down mysterious battle plans? We don&#8217;t know.<br /><br /><i>The tower is full of people from every nation so accents aren't really a problem here.</i><br /><br /> But we do have a problem. The number of accents floating around the WT would make <u>everyone</u> there familiar with <u>all</u> of them, and <u>any</u> anomaly would stand out like the proverbial t(*&amp; in a punch bowl. No mention&#8230;<br /><br /><i>I seem to recall that Loial thinks she is not really Cairhienin but doesn't really speak it out loud.</i><br /><br />He&#8217;s been to Cairhien recently and might also be keying in on physical anomalies, like height, hair/eye color&#8230; or body language and speech mannerisms&#8230; like the tired old joke of how to make an Italian go mute&#8230; tie his hands behind his back. Without intending a slur, it makes a point about the amount of gesticulation Italians seem to use when speaking compared to us more &#8220;reserved&#8221; western types.. Loial&#8217;s comment can hardly be credited as indicating anything specific.<br /><br /><i>I thought he was a random darkfriend plus his POV's he thinks about killing his sister and then Lanfear skins him.</i><br /><br /> But his wagons were with Rand &amp; Co. for <u>weeks</u>, and Lanfear was part of it, at least until Alcair Dal if I remember correctly. We don&#8217;t know exactly what accent she&#8217;s supposed to be using (if any) when she speaks as Keille Shaiogi. We are only told her voice is &#8220;melodious&#8221; and &#8220;musical&#8221; (tDR, Ch 36). We&#8217;ve heard those adjectives used for Cairhienin and Domani alike &#8211; thus meaningless. Her physical incongruity (all the weight of fat Keille vs. the great voice) is something of a disguise to Rand &amp; Co., but certainly Kadere, who has been traveling with her for a while, might make an internal dialogue note if he&#8217;d noticed it? Apparently he senses <u>nothing</u> out of the ordinary.<br /><br />As for the various Asha&#8217;man, the same argument for the WT fits here. Somebody should notice if a guy speaks with an accent NONE of them recognize??? Nothing&#8230;<br /><br />p.s., I love the rhetoric too, it&#8217;s almost like debate class! lol! Keep up the good work, you&#8217;re putting me through my paces.<br />


created: 2009-01-22 23:18:23
subject: <b>graendal learned to write in the modern age's script</b>
body:
Graendal noted that the modern age's script was simple. This indicates that she found it easy enough to learn. If she learned to write, she learned to read which would not be very far from learning to speak.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-23 08:57:23
subject: <b>Learning to read</b>
body:
In general, I agree, but reading and speaking a language are not always the same. I'll give two examples:<br /><br />1) Egyptian heiroglyphics. The people who study them have learned to translate them. The spoken form of that old language is long dead; even modern Egyptians deny any hint about pronunciation, syntax, et. So, this is a language that can only be read and never spoken.<br /><br />2) High vs. Low forms. Almost every language today has a High and Low form, especially in the written modes. The High form is usually the formal tone, while the Low is the casual or &quot;conversational&quot; one. Writing, especially important writing such as legal documents, technical documents, etc., are almost always written in the High form. Few indeed are the people who speak in the high form unless there's a special reason. Someone giving a speech, making a presentation, etc., generally speak in a more formal (High) mode, while people just flapping their jaws around the family coffee table will almost always speak in the conversational (Low) mode. Though the two are very close, the differences are notable. If one's only experience with a language is with reading the High mode, one's attempt to speak it will tend to be in the High mode as well, making the speaker &quot;stand out&quot; for this unusual, or inappropriate usage.<br /><br />With whatever experience they have in speaking modern Randlander, they've probably also acquired some familiarity with the formal and conversational speech modes (I still don't understand how they did it in the first place) so referencing the written form (high or low) has little or no bearing. At least as far as I can see.


created: 2009-01-25 00:52:52
subject: <b>observation most likely</b>
body:
In any case learning to read and write and learning to speak come hand in hand when learning modern languages.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-25 12:12:39
subject: <b>Ilitterate people speak but can't read</b>
body:
Not every one who learns to speak a language learns to read/write it, so no... &quot;learning to read and write and learning to speak come hand in hand&quot; isn't really accurate. Our modern world may have the highest <i>per capita</i> number of literate people in history, but the number of people who range from modestly or &quot;functionally&quot; illiterate to grossly ignorant of a written for of the language they speak still proves that reading/writing and speaking are two separate and distinct forms of communication and not linked together in any intuitive or insuperable manner. Learning one does not presuppose any ability to learn the other. Your statement would lead one to believe that for every language one learns to speak, one automatically picks up the ability to read/write and/or the other way around. This just isn't the case. It is quite possible to learn to speak multiple languages without learning to read a single one of them. I would dare to say the other direction is probably true as well.<br /><br />The two might have supportive performance relationships; the <u>better</u> one learns to read/write the <u>better</u> one learns how to speak or vice-versa? Perhaps... But, pickup up one by osmosis simply because one can do the other seems a bit far fetched in my book.


created: 2009-01-26 13:41:09
subject: <b>ok....</b>
body:
have you ever read a fantasy book where the author takes the time to illustrate different languages and create a trade tongue or a common tongue for ease of communication? these works are shorter in length and less artistic in scope so it seems like a no brainer that rj chose to only use two languages in his series. he knew how involved this series was going to be and he probably didn't want to force the language issue. chances are, if he lived to finish this series and someone asked him ten years down the line 'hey rj, be honest, why only two languages?' he would probably reply that it had something to do with flow. it can be tedious to read authors who write multi-lingual characters and i doubt that rj wanted to leave that impression.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-27 09:57:30
subject: <b>Artistic Scope...</b>
body:
<i>&#8220;have you ever read a fantasy book where the author takes the time to illustrate different languages and create a trade tongue or a common tongue for ease of communication?&#8221;</i><br /><br />Yes, I have. One of the most famous is Tolkien&#8217;s Lord of the Rings, but there are others.<br /><br /><i>&#8221;&#8230;these works are shorter in length and less artistic in scope&#8230;&#8221;</i><br /><br />Really? tLotR may be &#8220;shorter&#8221; in total page count, but it&#8217;s at least as broad in &#8216;Scope&#8217; as Jordan&#8217;s work, perhaps more so. As far as being &#8220;less artistic&#8221;, Tolkien set a standard that SF/Fantasy authors have been trying to meet ever since. Tolkien&#8217;s Middle Earth background/history is far more complete and detailed than anything Jordan has revealed to us. Tolkien&#8217;s variety of languages, races, and creatures&#8230; the very lifelike diversity of the world he shows us&#8230; beats the pants off of WoT. Other such stories at various levels of &#8220;artistic scope&#8221; include (but are far from limited to):<br /><br />Alan Burt Akers&#8217;(H. Kenneth Bulmer) <i>Dray Prescott</i> novels (53 volumes)<br />Glen Cook&#8217;s <i>Black Company</i> (10 volumes) and <i>Dread Empire books</i> ( 8 volumes plus assorted short stories).<br />Katherine Kurtz&#8217;s <i>Deryni</i> novels (15 volumes).<br />Michael Moorcock&#8217;s <i>Eternal Champion</i> cycle (40+ volumes and still counting)<br /><br />Each of these are examples of &quot;artistic scope&quot; which could rival Jordan's WoT.<br /><br /><i>&#8230;it can be tedious to read authors who write multi-lingual characters and i doubt that rj wanted to leave that impression.&#8221;</i><br /><br />You might find it tedious&#8230; I find the level of detail and the display of artistic and professional competence such a world displays underscores some of the best works ever produced; Tolkien, again, being only one.<br /><br />We who read SF/Fantasy understand the concept of &#8220;willing suspension of disbelief&#8221; quite well. We know that certain things are going to have to be taken as &#8220;given&#8221; or not thoroughly explained: Magic is one example &#8211; it can be very difficult for an author to create a logical and consistent set of rules for how &#8220;magic&#8221; in their world works. Even those who manage it can sometimes have trouble explaining that system to readers.<br /><br />We, the readers, willingly suspend our disbelief in these areas because it is necessary for the furtherment of the milieu. But, we still demand a certain minimum level of believability in any story world we read about &#8211; a certain minimum level of consistency &#8211; otherwise even we cannot take the story seriously enough to enjoy it at the level it might otherwise deserve.<br /><br />Physics should still work (at least when &#8220;magic&#8221; isn&#8217;t making it stand on its head and dance a jig), we expect a world to have weather with cyclic seasons, day/night cycles (at least of some sort unless the setting precludes it [multiple suns where there&#8217;s never any darkness, etc.]), people buy and sell with money (usually gold and silver in more &#8216;primitive&#8217; settings), travel from point A to point Z doesn&#8217;t skip B thru Y without a good reason (usually involving &#8220;magic&#8221; ). The list could go on. Language is frequently one of these points. Two people from two different countries, particularly if they&#8217;re geographically isolated from one another (like a big mountain chain or an ocean separates them) speak different languages. &#8220;People&#8221; from different races almost always speak different languages, with consummate communication difficulties. These communication troubles are overcome in various ways, &#8211; often a part of the storyline.<br /><br />Having people three thousand years out of date with the current language learning it in days or weeks (especially when most of them are not demonstrated to be intellectually capable of the feat)&#8230; so thoroughly that even regional accents are ignored, just goes beyond the bounds of propriety in the normal relationship between writer and reader and that &#8220;willing suspension of disbelief&#8221;. There has been no good reason given. Jordan&#8217;s explanation about the &#8220;printing press&#8221; is insufficient to the problem. No one has even offered a reasonable &#8220;magic&#8221; solution.<br /><br />Remember, I offered an alternative solution for others to confirm or deny: &#8220;<i>in other words they haven&#8217;t created a <u>OP fueled &#8220;Universal Translator&#8221;</u> which allows them to speak and understand modern Randlander&#8230;</i>&quot;. No one has said yeah or nay on that issue, therefore I have to conclude it&#8217;s not a valid line of discussion.<br /><br />They don&#8217;t magic the problem out of the way.<br />They don&#8217;t all have raw brain power to pull it off.<br />It&#8217;s a major conflict with minimum &#8220;believability&#8221; in any fantasy world.<br />Jordan&#8217;s explanation is insufficient to resolve the issue.<br /><br />And, it&#8217;s not just the language problem. Even if communicating turns out not to be that much of a problem, there&#8217;s still another point I brought up in the original post which hasn&#8217;t been satisfactorily addressed: <i>&#8221;they jump to various strategically vital locations on the map &#8230;, <u>without knowing the geography or politics</u> of the nations well enough to even understand where <u>the strategically important places are</u>, take up residence and <u>begin manipulating politics, religion, finance, armies, etc.</u>, &#8230;</i><br /><br />How did they know where to go? How did they identify strategically critical nations and cities so quickly? How did they manage to decipher the complex interaction of nations in politics, trade, military alliance/counter alliance, national hatreds, and the whole history of Randland since the Breaking so quickly and concisely? Even if they could communicate without trouble, how did they pull this second miracle off?<br /><br />Mesaana inserted herself into the WT. The WT didn&#8217;t exist in her time. It&#8217;s a major political power to be sure, but how did she identify it as such, discern its location and then insert herself into it (obviously replacing an existing Sister &#8211; to the point of imitating accent, imitating detailed mannerisms, even absorbing intimate personal memories to fool &#8220;friends&#8221; and close working associates on a daily basis) without a hitch? She does it so fast that she&#8217;s apparently in complete control of the Black Ajah well before Elaida runs her coup against Siuan &#8211; may even have had a hand it making it happen. How?<br /><br />Sammael inserts himself as Lord Brend on the Counsel of Nine in Illian. He&#8217;s effectively already in control of Illian when Moiraine identifies him in The Dragon Reborn. His guise is a bit simpler, and Compulsion no doubt played a great part in his success, but the same essential question applies to him as to Mesaana &#8211; how did he identify Illian as so strategically important&#8230; how did he come to the conclusion that Illian was his best bet as a place to control?<br /><br />Be&#8217;lal inserts himself as High Lord Samon, and <u>rules</u> Tear. Tear has <u>no King</u>, only the Counsel of High Lords. Certainly Be&#8217;lal used essentially the same tactic as Sammael (including Compulsion), but that same question is still unanswered. How did he figure it out, and decide this was where he would stand?<br /><br />Rahvin becomes Lord Gaebril in Ceymlyn. The story we get says that while Morgase was off to Tar Valon to demand Elayne&#8217;s return , Gaebril &#8220;saved&#8221; Caemlyn and establishes himself in power. According to tDR, Ch 47, this occurred during the winter (accompanying the activity of The Great Hunt). Again, how did he so quickly Identify Andor and Caemlyn as his targets?<br /><br />Graendal become Lady Basene and sets herself up in a palace in Arad Doman [ref. tFoH, Ch 3 &amp; LoC, Ch 6].<br /><br />In the FoH Prologue, Graendal meets with Rahvin, Sammael and Lanfear in the Royal Palace of Andor in Caemlyn to plot about Rand. They are all established in their places of power by this time. This part of the stories occurred in the late summer to early fall of 999 NE. If they were all released from the Bore at the same time &#8211; in other words <b>all</b> of the Forsaken were freed at the same time Aginor and Balthamel were (end of tEotW &#8211; end of the summer of 998NE), they had no more than one year to pull this whole thing off.<br /><br />But, wait, there&#8217;s more! Remember, Rahvin was established in Caemlyn by the end of tDR, which ended in the Spring of 999. That means they did it all in 6 months! But, wait, there&#8217;s even more! Lanfear is messing with Rand about the Portal Stones in tGH, which ends in the late fall of 998, only three months after being released, and she&#8217;s already familiar enough with Cairhein that she fools Loial about her place of origin, even though Loial&#8217;s been there fairly recently [ ref. tEotW, Ch 36]. How????????????<br /><br />Some have posited this problem is overcome in various unlikely ways:<br /><br />1)	Ishamael isn&#8217;t likely to be so friendly and helpful to the others. He&#8217;s been working this problem for three millennia. He&#8217;s not about to cough up anything that will aid them in supplanting him as Nae&#8217;blis.<br /><br />2)	Aginor and Balthamel couldn&#8217;t &#8220;pass on&#8221; anything to the others. They&#8217;re the only two buried lightly enough to have experienced any of the last 3k years. tDR, Ch 36, has Lanfear explaining that her time in the Bore was a deep and &#8220;dreamless sleep&#8221;. As Aginor and Balthamel are the only two who show any signs of physical debilitation as a result of being trapped so shallowly, we can only presume the others (who, like Lanfear suffered no physical ill effects) were like Lanfear in this way as well; deeply unconscious and unable to learn or experience anything. They got no &#8220;intel&#8221; that way.<br /><br />3)	The DO briefed them as soon as they were released. Again, not likely as we have no supporting data. In fact, according to the Prologue of tFoH, Rahvin indicates that as soon as he&#8217;s freed from the Bore, he goes off on his own rather than collaborate with the other Forsaken. If the Big DO had called a staff meeting surely Rahvin would have shown up!?!?<br /><br />Again and again these people are doing things too quickly to believe, even if they could communicate without any trouble at all. Throw in the possible difficulties in understanding the lingo, in imitating regional accents, etc. and the problem just gets so big, the &#8220;believability factor&#8221; just gets so strained, that I have a major problem with it.<br />


created: 2009-01-28 16:58:53
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
You don't read much common throw away fantasy do you?  The ones you mention that you say do what you want I have never heard of and I can't imagine reading a series that is 40 something books long, no thanks.  Most sci-fi movies and books make this assumption.  For example we know in star trek that earth comes to space late but we are the ones to set up the federation and quickly become one of the most important races in the universe?  Why, well because that is what makes the story interesting most people don't want to read a story where we are not central characters.<br /><br />Stargate is another example, they go to worlds where humans have been seperate from earth for a long long time but they seem to have no language differences why, because dealing with it would take to much time and the stories are escapist in nature.<br /><br />Battlestar galactica (by far the best of the ones I have mentioned so far) is another example 12 colonies and no differences in language (yes they had space travel and were once the same group but I am not sure they had space travel throughout the period they were the 12, and there still should be some dialects I would think)<br /><br />I don't remember Babalyon five having different languages<br /><br />For books, Malazan seems to have a very similar language throughout the entire world as does the world of Feast for crows which is certinly at least as large as randland.  These are considered to be wonderful books and are certinly more well known than the ones you mention.<br /><br />Even in Lord of the Rings (which most definitly is the best epic fantasy ever created - partarliy for the language) the hobbits had no problems understanding the men and vice versa.  How did a common language develop there, especially when the hobbits were so isolated? We never hear about accents in common from the elves or anyone.<br /><br />Really to me this is just a little to picky and something that doesn't bother me.  If it bothers you that is fine, but I doubt it is going to bother many people.


created: 2009-01-29 19:45:15
subject: <b>re: wow</b>
body:
At the outset, let me say, please don&#8217;t take anything I say personally. None of it is meant to be demeaning, insulting, derogatory, belligerent or otherwise offensive. I just like a good argument and early training in debate/rhetoric often finds me ascribing to <i>carpe jugulum</i>&#8230; go for the throat. If I seem a bit pugnacious, please chalk it up to bad early habits. I&#8217;m finding this discussion interesting and don&#8217;t want it to cease just because something I said was taken wrong. Ok?<br /><br /><i>&#8220;You don't read much common throw away fantasy do you?&#8221;</i>  If it&#8217;s &#8220;throw away&#8221; I probably don&#8217;t read it. I try to read good literature not stuff that goes into the trash or over to the &#189; price resale shop as soon as I&#8217;m done with it. I have a personal library of over 1,000 books of fantasy fiction and &#8220;hard core&#8221; science fiction that I keep on hand for reference and the occasional re-read. It has been a number of years since I read what some might consider &#8220;junk&#8221;.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;I can't imagine reading a series that is 40 something books long, no thanks&#8230;.&#8221;</i> I presume that the use of the #40 that you&#8217;re referring to the Michael Moorcock books. The <i>Eternal Champion</i> books are stellar classics of the genre and well worth the read. Much of what&#8217;s on the shelves today can trace author influences back to Mr. Moorcock and those books, including Jordan. Moorcock&#8217;s works comprise over 10,000 pages; less than WoT. You don&#8217;t have a problem with the size of Jordan&#8217;s work but do with a smaller total output of an icon of the genre? If, instead, you&#8217;re referring to the 53 volume <i>Prescott</i> books, that&#8217;s only 13,250 pages, about the size WoT will be after AMoL is released. Again, comparable sizes, but one is ok, the other isn&#8217;t? I&#8217;m just trying to get my head around a seeming inconsistency here.<br /><br />&lt;/i&gt;&#8220;Most sci-fi movies and books make this assumption.&#8221;&lt;/i&gt; Perhaps most of what you read makes this assumption but I don&#8217;t believe that such assumption comprises the majority of the Sci/Fi world&#8217;s works. Piers Anthony&#8217;s <i>Cluster</i> series and his <i>Bio of a Space Tyrant</i> books certainly do not. Nor do Leigh Brackett&#8217;s <i>Skaith</i> books, Jack Chalker&#8217;s <i>Rings of the Master</i> series, <i>Four Lords of the Diamond</i> series, or his <i>Well of Souls</i> series. Nor do most of the works by Frank Herbert, Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov, or L. Ron Hubbard (all considered Deans of the genre). Nor do Anne McCaffery&#8216;s <i>Pern</i> books, most of Larry Niven&#8217;s works (especially <i>Lucifer&#8217;s Hammer, Footfall, Oath of Fealty, The Integral Trees, Mote in God&#8217;s Eye</i>, etc.), or Fred Saberhagen&#8217;s <i>Berzerker</i> books. [Note: since you cited only &#8220;hard core&#8221; sci/fi, {as far as I can tell} that&#8217;s all I countered with].<br /><br />By the way, I personally don&#8217;t think that Stargate or Battlestar Gallactica are very good quality examples of the genre, so I tend to discount their usefulness as sources (except as negative examples)&#8230; it&#8217;s a personal thing. I&#8217;m old enough to have watched the original Star Trek&#8217;s as a youngster, and I&#8217;ve watched Rodenberry&#8217;s original concept morphed into drivel. Next Gen was reasonably good, but everything after that is total junk. *whispers &#8211; Majel should be slapped!* As for Bab-5, yeah generally good stuff, and yes there are languages involved: the Vorlons and Shadows speak different languages, as do the Centauri and the Minbari, and the Narns. But, they&#8217;re in a high tech environment (allowing for computerized translation when needed) and the &#8220;setting&#8221; comprises a high number of ambassadors. Of course they speak each other&#8217;s languages; it&#8217;s like being at the U.N.! The Forsaken are not in anything near the same situation. I don&#8217;t grok (look it up) this Mallazan you reference.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;&#8230;the hobbits had no problems understanding the men and vice versa&#8230;&#8221;</i> That&#8217;s because the tongue of men was the Hobbits&#8217; &#8220;native&#8221; tongue from the beginning. Seeing how this came about would entail a fair amount of reading into the background/history of the world; not just the Silmarillion, but the other histories, appendices, and &#8220;unfinished&#8221; data that Christopher T. has been publishing for so many years.<br /><br />All I&#8217;ve pointed out is that I see a problem with the speed with which the Forsaken learn the modern form of the language, and the speed with which they &#8220;set up shop&#8221; in such critical areas. It seems too contrived and convenient. Considering how much work Jordan put into the rest of the books, this apparent flaw bothers me.<br />


created: 2009-01-30 13:49:33
subject: <b>AH!</b>
body:
I see the problem now!  You see you are not the audience Jordan is writing for.  These are &quot;fun&quot; books not serious sci-fi literature.  For example think of the Zanth books by Anthony or Magician Master or Magician apprentice.  I don't remember many different languages in the Dune books but I only found the first two or so interesting.  The ones after that he was taking waaay to many drugs for me.  Pern never did it for me so I didn't read many of them, I would actually consider pern &quot;fun&quot; throw away novels.  Heinlein is an icon of the genre definitely and he doesn't have the problems you talk about.  (I didn't know actually Peirs anthony wrote anything besides the zanth novels, are his other novels any good?)<br /><br />Are you familiar with the differences between &quot;popular&quot; literature and more artistic literature?  The authors you cite fall into the more artistic side of things, and have more than &quot;entertainment&quot; on their minds.  Asimov especially had themes and ideas he was exploring.  <br /><br />Jordan however is mostly entertainment.  He does have some themes and ideas he is exploring but mostly he want's I expect for people to read his books and enjoy them.  Making the forsaken have to spend time learning about the world would have increased the size of the books, and for many people made things less interesting.<br /><br />I generally divide genere literature into three groups.  In the lowest group you have the dragonlance, magic the gathering and such books.  These are usually pretty bad and for me at least not worth reading.  In the second group you have books written mainly for entertainment but that are written on a higher level (larger words more complicated plots).  Then you have the truly artistic works that are going to be the ones to survive the Heinlein books, the Asimov books.  <br /><br />Your problem seems to be that Jordan falls into the second group and not the third.  That is pretty much how it is though.  Jordan is not Arthur C. Clark or Tolkein but he wasn't trying to be.  He however isn't writing a dragonlance novel or a conan novel (though he did write those at one time).<br /><br />I try to read mostly from the first or the second group but I do read some things from the third.  For most people reading is an escape (though not for you or Dylan) a time to turn the brain off.  The second and the third level of books do this very well.  You should try reading some on the second level sometime they can be very fun.<br /><br />On the size of books, when you tell me something has 40 or 53 volumes I am going to think it has waaay more words than you say it does.  I think then of 40 or 50 books the size of Jordans works which are pretty much the standard size now, so we miscomunicated there.<br /><br />Star Trek has gotten much much worse, I can't watch the original series just because of the bad special effects but the new movie makes me want to hurl.  On B-5 I agree with what you said there but even when we go onto the Narn planet, they speak English it is just a convention.  I was referring to the new Battlestar galactica by the way not the old one which was a peice of crap the new one is a very good very dark character driven drama.  I would say it is better than Star Wars for example and much of the new star trek stuff (though to me Enterprise started dealing with the creation of the federation it got better) <br /><br />Oh and I have read strange in a strange land so I do know what Grok means, for one that has supposedly taken courses in argument you resort to insult more than is healthy.  Arguments work much better when you stick with logic.<br /><br />(Do not worry about insulting me, it takes a lot online and I can give as good as I get <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2009-01-30 19:06:03
subject: <b>I get it</b>
body:
<i>you are not the audience Jordan is writing for</i><br /><i>Are you familiar with the differences between &quot;popular&quot; literature and more artistic literature? </i><br /><i>Your problem seems to be that Jordan falls into the second group and not the third</i><br /><i>For most people reading is an escape (though not for you or Dylan) a time to turn the brain off. </i><br /><br />Generally trying to address all of those at once&#8230;<br /><br />Yes, I&#8217;m familiar with the difference between artistic and popular literature. I read a fair amount of popular stuff [probably the 2nd level stuff you refer to (Roger Zelazny&#8217;s <i>Amber</i> books were great &#8211; they&#8217;re still in my library). I do read for fun, pure escapism, no bones about it. I don&#8217;t read with the intent of &#8220;over analyzing&#8221; anything, it&#8217;s just a habit that formed long ago. I&#8217;m a bit of a puzzle freak and trying to figure out plot lines and 2nd guess &#8220;who done it&#8221;, etc., has become unconscious habit over the years &#8211; that&#8217;s one thing that drew me to the WoT books. Crown of Swords was just being published and a friend not only recommended them, he took the time to describe some of the plot elements, so I bit&#8230;and got hooked.<br /><br />Additional examples of stuff I&#8217;ve read would include Terry Brooks&#8217; <i>Shanara</i> series, and Alan Dean Foster&#8217;s <i>Spellsinger</i> books. I&#8217;ve also read stuff you might classify in the #1 group like Barbara Hambly, Leo Frankowski&#8217;s <i>Cross-time Engineer</i>, etc&#8230; not really serious stuff. I get it&#8230;<br /><br />On the front of Star Trek, et al&#8230; When it comes to something like languages I mostly don&#8217;t even think about it in stores like Trek, Bab-5, or any of the others for two primary reasons: 1) the high tech angle, like I said they&#8217;ve got &#8220;computers&#8221; to speed translate, etc. It&#8217;s not an issue for them. 2) it&#8217;s almost impossible to deal with such problems reasonably well within the very limited time constraints of the &#8220;show&#8221;. It takes too much screen time demonstrating to an audience how it&#8217;s been handled&#8230; and yes I know you&#8217;re making essentially the same argument about books, but the difference is that writing a novel (or series of novels) gives the writer much more room to play with to get the job done. For example, why wait until Rand gets to the EotW (or even later) to let the Forsaken out? Why not have them &#8220;escape&#8221; some time earlier and have time to do all this stuff in a reasonable manner? This shouldn&#8217;t have added anything significant to the length of story and would have solved the problem before it got started. True, this is hind-sight speaking, but still&#8230; all the planning RJ put into the thing it would seem to me that this should have been considered, but it doesn&#8217;t come across as though it was.


created: 2009-02-01 23:58:39
subject: <b>Terry brooks I would put in the lowest group actually</b>
body:
Right there with the dragonlance novels.  The malazan stuff I mentioned which you should check out starts with Gardens of the Moon.  Very well done and interesting.  I am not an author so I can't say if having them out earlier would have made a difference but it may have made things less active and thrilling.<br /><br />Have you read any of the prince of nothing series?  If not you should he has a way of handling it their that I think is interesting.


created: 2009-02-04 18:14:45
subject: <b>Is it really that unbelievable?</b>
body:
Surely it's not as far fetched as you believe...take English, English is the official language of more countries than any other language and while it isn't the most used language on the planet nor the easiest to master...that's still really impressive considering that Earth is a lot larger than Randland. And it is true, that you have the Forsaken who where pretty much genusis in their own time. So All of Randland uses one language which gets its root from the Old Tongue...and then you have such Forsaken as Lanfear, Ishy, Mesaana, Asmodean, Graendal, and Balthomel. Lanfear a Scientist, Mesaana a Teacher, Asmodean a Musician, Balthomel an Archeologist, Ishy a Philosopher, and Graendal a Psychologist. Surely it wasn't that hard for them to master a language that started from the very tongue they grew up speaking. And let us not forget the Dark One...who knows what power he has. And if he doesn't have the power to give them the gift of gab, surely those that mastered the native language were forced to teach the others at the risk of angering the Shai'tan.


created: 2009-07-23 20:18:41
subject: <b>Suspend disbelief...</b>
body:
This has bugged me for sometime. The time aspect, as well as all the people from different countries, even Seanchan and Shaara speaking the same language.<br />However, for the sake of the reader being able to follow easily, and to move the story along (it's gone slow enough as it is), I suspend my disbelief and just put up with the &quot;SNAFU&quot; as you call it.


created: 2009-08-11 17:59:55
subject: <b>True - Can't happen</b>
body:
I'm Indian. India has two &quot;old tongues&quot; - Sanskrit and Tamil. About 10 of the 17-odd national languages are derived from Sanskrit. (English is an exception). <br /><br />I'm a native speaker of two of those 10 languages and learnt Sanskrit itself for around 5 years in school. <br />I can follow/communicate in most of the other Sanskrit-based languages but there is no way that I would ever be considered of native fluency in any of them. <br /><br />That's the kind of linguistic drift that has occurred in around 1,000 years in a place (the Indian sub-continent) the approximate size of Westland, despite continuous trade contact throughout. It's been one country for pretty much the last 400 years. So the Westland &quot;Esperanto Vulgaris&quot; is pretty much a stretch in itself. <br /><br />Now Sanskrit and ancient Persian (as in the Zoarastrian texts) were almost the same &quot;old tongue&quot;, some 3000 years ago. Again, there's been continuous contact between India-Iran but there's no way a modern Indian/Irani would casually follow or speak the other's mother-tongue. <br /><br />That's the kind of drift that occurs where there's even marginal isolation. The difference between Seanchan and Westland vulgaris would be even more. Ditto Aiel.<br /><br />So from analogy, there's indeed a huge Snafu in the linguistics of WoT. <br /><br />Westlanders would be able to communicate with each other with some difficulty but there's no way that an Egeanin would be able to infiltrate Tanchico. The Seanchan Correnne would go nuts trying to talk to their long-lost and faithless cousins. <br />


created: 2009-01-22 10:35:26
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Your theory was well thought out but there are a few holes.<br /><br />1) You talk about Novices(nuns) and Accepted as being part of a religous cult. But there weren't any Novices or Accepted until the current age and the White Tower. So it doesn't deal with the AOL which your argument speaks to.<br /><br />2) I find your arguments about nature flawed.<br /><br />***Dystopias are commonly urban, and generally avoid nature<br />-But an urban area does not mean a dystopia, otherwise your argument could also say that all modernized countries are dystopias.<br /><br />***The &#8220;thinness&#8221; where the Bore was located was at Shayol Ghul described as &#8220;an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic.&#8221; [Demandred&#8217;s POV, LoC, Prologue, p. 16]<br />Though far from definitive, the context could easily be construed to suggest that the &#8220;rustic&#8221; life was not broadly popular; it appealed to or was partaken of by a limited minority. <br />-People today have a second home(lake house?) in a rather rural environment that they can go to get away from city life. I take it this is what you would call &quot;rustic&quot; They do not avoid nature, rather see it as a peaceful respite. Also, you are taking your arguments from Demandred. I'm fairly certain he would not like most things other people in the AoL would, what with him being one of the Forsaken and all. <br /><br />***First we see &#8220;silvery buildings that touched the sky&#8221;. This seems to be describing skyscrapers which only occur in heavily urban areas. Note the comment about the street being wide but still crowded. <br />-Again, urban does not mean dystopia.<br /><br />***Then comes the comment about the chora trees...we do get the idea that any city without one would seem bleak*. This implies strongly that all the AoL cities have them. We also have the comment that wilderness is bleak....*Side note: Bleak &#8211; unwelcoming, austere, miserable, drab, dreary, depressing, desolate, uninviting, lonely, cheerless...<br />The cities of the AoL are large and crowded, so crowded they need to consolidate living space by building up instead of out. And, the population considers &#8220;mother nature&#8221; so foreign or uncomfortable that it feels bleak. They are detached from nature, for the most part and prefer their more comfortably familiar (and predictable) urban environment.<br />-A few issues here. I agree that they had to build up because the cities were crowded, like any city today. You give the definition of bleak, and proceed to say that you believe wilderness according to the AOL'ers is &quot;foreign or uncomfortable&quot;. A desert is considered a wilderness. I'm fairly sure that it would be considered uncomfortable by anyone, not just those living in a dystopian society. I think you are reaching for connections at this point.<br /><br /><br />***Implications are, however, that this method of food growing was either not the way it had been done before, or it was a method to which a very limited number of people had previously bore witness; certainly not the kind of &#8220;rural&#8221; activity the common person of the AoL partook, and very probably never under military guard before.<br />-How is this implied exactly? <br />It seems to me that the singing was only done by the Aiel. This seems to have been done before because the ones who sing are handpicked. How do you know if that person can or cannot sing unless it has been done before and there is a system to exclude those who cannot sing?<br />The fact that there weren't that many people there should also be a clue. It was a fairly common occurence. For instance, if I live in the city, I am not going to even consider going out of my way to some farm and watch the farmer plant his crops, unless he was planting something very special that was never done before.<br />Your surprised over the fact there is a military presence? They were in the middle of a war with the Forsaken! I think I would want some guards with me if I was going to go out to an undefended area and plant some crops.<br /><br />***Third, the &#8220;empty streets&#8221;, &#8220;shattered buildings&#8221; and &#8220;abandoned jo-cars&#8221; describe advanced decay of the society. Urban civilization is almost completely dead. We have no good timeline to see exactly how long this demolition took, but it certainly took decades if not a couple of centuries (maybe more). By this point most of the surviving population was probably more rural in nature, but only because they had been forced to it by unfortunate circumstance, not by choice.<br />- Decades? Centuries? Seriously? If the Forsaken attacked, I'd be out of the city an into the countryside in minutes! That's your timeline.<br /><br />***The key point here is, at least at the beginning, in the earliest days of the Bore and the War of Power, the population was densely packed into urban areas and felt that nature was a stranger, in many ways. Some people, such as Aes Sedai, could partake of the &#8220;rustic&#8221; if they felt the desire, but such activities may not have been considered the norm.<br />- Yea, I'm with them. I prefer running water, heat, abundant food, and all the other advantages of civilization.<br /><br />***Economics<br />-All you did was describe the current economic environment, where $ is king. I think that's how it has always been.<br /><br /><br />***Usually, the advanced technology is controlled exclusively by the group in power, while the oppressed population is limited to technology comparable to or more primitive than what we have today. We certainly see some this description in the AoL.<br />-Um...No we don't &quot;Once there would have been other ways to carry them, jo-cars and jumpers, hoverflies and huge showings. Now painfully assembled horses and wagons had to suffice.TSR Chp. 26&quot; Also &quot;He seldom used the sho-wings,<br />himself - if he needed to go very far, an Aes Sedai usually Traveled with him - from TSR Chp. 26&quot; So their use was not only limited to Aes Sedai.<br /><br />***The use of &#8220;Oath Rods&#8221; on criminals as a tool of unbreakable compulsion to prevent further non-compliance with social norms, yet eliminating the requirement for isolative or interment institutions like prisons; they can still be &#8220;productive members of society.&#8221;<br />-Isn't this preferable to prisons or do you like the prison system we currently have?<br /><br />***The use of terminology of questionable or debatable meaning. The Hall of Servants might be descriptive of a central meeting place for people who actually serve society. On the other hand, Orwellian &#8220;Newspeak&#8221; shows how meanings can be reversed. The Ministry of Truth was for public propaganda and lies. The Ministry of Peace was responsible for waging war. The Ministry of Love engendered hate, etc., etc. With that interpretation, the Hall of Servants might actually be the Hall of the Masters.<br />-Or, just bear with me for a minute, it might actually be what it says. Considering the Forsaken left when they wanted to enslave the people, it can be safely assumed the Hall of the Servants was not the &quot;Hall of the Masters&quot;. Unless, you have proof to the contrary? No? I thought not.<br /><br />***The AoL has a stratified social order, also fairly typical of dystopias. The Aiel could easily be construed as slave labor, residing at the bottom of the social pecking order just below &#8220;Oath Rod&#8221; bound criminals.<br />-&#8220;Forgive me, Da&#8217;shain. I am the one who<br />should be watching where he walks. Let me help you up.&#8221; He was already suiting his words, hoisting Charn to<br />his feet. &#8220;Are you all right? Let me call a jumper to take you where you are going.&#8221; TSR Chp 26.<br />Somehow, I don't think regret and forgiveness would cross this man's mind if the Aiel were slaves. <br /><br />***There seems no practical reason or need for building it where and how they did it. The only justification seems to be that they did it that way because they could, without regard to other factors; certainly a sign of deterioration or degeneration &#8211; the cost and logistics would be enormously wasteful.<br />-Any society with an abundance would do this. The Pyramids, the Great Wall, Versailles, Sears Tower, Petronas Towers, Palm Islands in Dubai. Something they want to be remembered for.<br /><br />***To me it is obvious that the AoL, as we&#8217;ve seen it described, was an atypical, oligarchic anti- or counter-Utopia, typified by densely populated urban areas where the population felt uncomfortable or even afraid of nature, where artificial measures were used to repress or control much of the people into compliance, where social stratification was used to segregate elements of the population into easily recognizable and controllable groups, and which contained elements of spiritual occult hegemony in a privileged elite who commanded and controlled everyone else.<br />Simple really&#8230;<br />-hehe


created: 2009-01-22 17:31:26
subject: <b>Yup</b>
body:
Silver Fox responded:<br /><br />&#8230; a few holes.<br /><br />1) &#8230;there weren't any Novices or Accepted until the current age and the White Tower. So it doesn't deal with the AOL which your argument speaks to.<br /><br />The organizational structure of the WT may well be different from that from the Hall of Servants in the AoL. However, the essential beliefs of the people who inhabit it are probably not. Again, we have to look at Jordan&#8217;s comments on the nature of &#8220;religion&#8221; in WoTWorld, both in the 2nd Age (AoL) and the 3rd Age. Even in the AoL people knew that the Creator and the DO existed, they didn&#8217;t need churches, priests and the other trappings of &#8220;faith&#8221; any more than Randlanders. The exact form of their organization is less important that the fact that anyone manifesting the &#8220;power of God&#8221; (channeling) would well be considered a &#8220;quasi-religious&#8221; figure however they defined or segmented their membership. The mere existence of channelers (in whichever Age) in an organized group which apparently has powerful control or influence of a society then takes on the form of an &#8220;occult elite&#8221;  powered oligarchy as defined and described. So, whether or not there were &#8220;nuns&#8221; in the AoL or not, or even a structure similar to a church, the fact that the AoL apparently contained (perhaps controlled by?) an elite segment of society, with apparently occult powers, exercising &#8220;spiritual hegemony&#8221; weighs heavily towards qualification it as a dystopia. Even if the channelers of the age weren&#8217;t the true government, their ability certainly lent them a great deal of influence. Even Chairman Mao recognized that &#8220;power comes from the barrel of a gun&#8221;, showing how superior force, even the implication of its possibility, supplies the wielder with authority whether or not they exorcise the authority or the power.<br /><br />2) &#8230;an urban area does not mean a dystopia, otherwise your argument could also say that all modernized countries are dystopias.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;The society frequently isolates the characters from all contact with the natural world. Dystopias are <u>commonly urban</u>, and <u>generally avoid nature</u>, as when walks are regarded as dangerously anti-social as in Ray Bradbury's &lt;i&gt;Fahrenheit 451</i>. With <i>Brave New World</i>, the lower classes of society are actively conditioned to be afraid of nature.&lt;/i&gt;<br /><br />There isn&#8217;t even a vague indication here that I&#8217;m claiming what you&#8217;re implying. I was pointing out that one of the <u>common</u> aspects of a dystopic society involves this broad social alienation from nature, and went to show what I feel an acceptable example of how this condition might have been met. If you have a problem with your own absurd over-simplification, argue with those who created the definition.<br /><br /><i>People today have a second home (lake house?) in a rather rural environment that they can go to get away from city life. I take it this is what you would call &quot;rustic&quot; They do not avoid nature, rather see it as a peaceful respite. Also, you are taking your arguments from Demandred. I'm fairly certain he would not like most things other people in the AoL would, what with him being one of the Forsaken and all.</i> <br /><br />a)	The first part of your statement seems to imply that a majority of people own such homes. If that&#8217;s what your comment is claiming, I challenge you to demonstrate the statistical or demographic information that proves it. b) <b>If</b> the majority population of the AoL exhibited the alienation from nature, then those who enjoyed such &#8220;rustic&#8221; settings would be a minority be default. c) I was not defining &#8220;rustic&#8221;, I was using the word Jordan provided (regardless of which character it comes from it means the same). d) Demandred&#8217;s view is not invalid simply because of who he is. As one of only 13 AoL survivors his view represents a statistically significant sample size (~7.69%) of the &#8220;opinions&#8221; of that period, certainly much greater than most &#8220;polls&#8221; done today; polls which we take as valid and accurately representative. So, if Demandred thinks that Shayol Ghul was considered &#8220;rustic&#8221; during that Age, then that was very probably how it was considered by the majority.<br /><br /><i>Again, urban does not mean dystopia.</i><br /><br />ibid<br /><br /><i> I agree that they had to build up because the cities were crowded, like any city today. You give the definition of bleak, and proceed to say that you believe wilderness according to the AOL'ers is &quot;foreign or uncomfortable&quot;. A desert is considered a wilderness. I'm fairly sure that it would be considered uncomfortable by anyone, not just those living in a dystopian society. I think you are reaching for connections at this point.</i><br /><br />One more time, it goes to demonstrate what seems to be a pattern of behavior or belief which matches the listed criteria. Argue with those who created the definition &#8211; either of wilderness or dystopia, whichever you feel will give you the best satisfaction.<br /><br /><i>How is this implied exactly? &#8230;</i><br /><br />This comes from the middle vision &#8211; at the end of the War of Power, quite some time after the drilling of the Bore. Reference the townspeople mentioned. They come out to watch the activity, but disperse quickly when the &#8220;show&#8221; is over. They came to witness the event, but not participate; not even in the cleanup. This implies rarity, at least to an extent, perhaps in the same way that later Randlanders viewed fireworks. They know about it, but when it&#8217;s going on under their nose, they make a point of witnessing it.<br /><br />As for the military presence, I was not intimating &#8220;surprise&#8221; but included it to emphasize the reduced level of &#8220;civilization&#8221; present at that time, and thus a point to show the re-ruralization occurring; the decrease of the rural alienation observed previously.<br /><br /><i>Decades? Centuries? Seriously? If the Forsaken attacked, I'd be out of the city and into the countryside in minutes! That's your timeline.</i><br /><br />Oh, please&#8230; The timeline of the 3rd vision is post-War of Power/Shadow. The Bore had been sealed for most of a generation, and the Breaking was going on. The Forsaken were already locked up in their temporal prison. All three visions together span at least three generations of men. If that doesn&#8217;t qualify as &#8220;decades&#8221; I don&#8217;t know what does. As for the possibility of &#8220;centuries&#8221;, tell me exactly how long the whole War of Shadow/Power took and we&#8217;ll both know. Also, tell me how long Aiel lived during that period, that should help narrow it down for you.<br /><br />***The key point here is, at least at the beginning, in the earliest days of the Bore and the War of Power, the population was densely packed into urban areas and felt that nature was a stranger, in many ways. Some people, such as Aes Sedai, could partake of the &#8220;rustic&#8221; if they felt the desire, but such activities may not have been considered the norm.<br /><br /><i>Yea, I'm with them. I prefer running water, heat, abundant food, and all the other advantages of civilization.</i><br /><br />One final time, it goes to show the moving away from the rural alienation &#8211; how far it has gone. It&#8217;s a demonstration of how heavily urban the earlier vision is &#8211; possibly caused by the alienation typical in a dystopia.<br /><br /><i>***Economics<br />-All you did was describe the current economic environment, where $ is king. I think that's how it has always been.</i><br /><br />What I showed was that the economic system of the period didn&#8217;t seem to me to be much different from what we have today... As the efficiency or openness of the economic system of a dystopia can be heavily indicative of the type of government in control, and therefore indicative of how oppressive it is and how difficult to overcome, the point was to show that the AoL seemed to have a fairly open/efficient economy (comparative to much worse possibilities) and thus a fairly benevolent government (again compared to much worse alternatives). This supports my point that IF the AoL was dystopic it was an atypical one.<br /><br /><i>Um...No we don't &quot;Once there would have been other ways to carry them, jo-cars and jumpers, hoverflies and huge showings. Now painfully assembled horses and wagons had to suffice.TSR Chp. 26&quot; Also &quot;He seldom used the sho-wings, himself - if he needed to go very far, an Aes Sedai usually Traveled with him - from TSR Chp. 26&quot; So their use was not only limited to Aes Sedai.</i><br /><br />You conveniently ignored the &#8220;usually&#8221; that started the statement. As you yourself show, Aiel interaction with this technology is severely limited; short distances, short durations. Anything important was done by Aes Sedai. The fact that Aiel had access at all just goes more towards supporting my contention that the AoL dystopia was atypical.<br /><br />The use of &#8220;Oath Rods<br /><br /><i>Isn't this preferable to prisons or do you like the prison system we currently have?</i><br /><br />I wasn&#8217;t aware we were debating the moral justifications of prisons. I was showing how the &#8220;powers that be&#8221; of the period used a form of Compulsion to control &#8220;undesirable&#8221; elements/behavior; such compulsory &#8220;mind control&#8221; is common among dystopias &#8211; does 1984&#8217;s &#8220;2+2=5&#8221; strike a note? As an alternative to institutionalized imprisonment, it is certainly more efficient&#8230; I won&#8217;t argue the morality of it.<br /><br />***The use of terminology of questionable or debatable meaning. &#8230; the Hall of Servants might actually be the Hall of the Masters.<br /><br /><i>Or, just bear with me for a minute, it might actually be what it says. Considering the Forsaken left when they wanted to enslave the people, it can be safely assumed the Hall of the Servants was not the &quot;Hall of the Masters&quot;. Unless, you have proof to the contrary? No? I thought not.</i><br /><br />Certainly it might be exactly what it says, but with as many other dystopic criteria as seem to have already been met, we cannot arbitrarily discount the possibility that this is another. I was pointing it out as a possibility&#8230; of speculative interest. I never said it was &#8220;proof&#8221; of the argument. Your attempt to use it to denigrate the theory is disingenuous at best.<br /><br />***The Aiel could easily be construed as slave labor.<br /><br /><i>Somehow, I don't think regret and forgiveness would cross this man's mind if the Aiel were slaves.</i><br /><br />Slavery, generally defined as &#8220;systematic exploitation of labor&#8221;. As a social-economic system it is typified by the use of compulsory labor. The Aiel had taken oaths to serve (on an Oath Rod or not, we don&#8217;t know). Their oath compels them to serve&#8230; <i>ipso facto</i> they are slaves. If the AoL version of slavery was more benevolent than what we imagine when we hear the word, all well and good. But that difference does not invalidate the definition.<br /><br />***a sign of deterioration or degeneration &#8211; the cost and logistics would be enormously wasteful.<br /><br /><i>Any society with an abundance would do this. The Pyramids, the Great Wall, Versailles, Sears Tower, Petronas Towers, Palm Islands in Dubai. Something they want to be remembered for.</i><br /><br />And&#8230; all societies that reach such a level of wanton waste due to over-abundance collapse. You make my point for me.<br /><br />Let me know when you have a valid argument.


created: 2009-01-23 13:04:46
subject: <b>Nonsense</b>
body:
I don't usually comment on theories, but your smarmy, self-satisfied answer to The Silver Fox (TSF) deserves a response. I'll begin by saying simply that this may be the weakest, most nonsensical &quot;theory&quot; I've ever seen in this website. <br /><br />TSF pointed out, rather politely, some of the more obvious flaws, and all you could do to counter was, essentially, repeat the same nonsense from your theory. And, then you end with smugness. I can practically hear you saying to yourself &quot;I really showed him how smart I am.&quot; <br /><br />Hopefully, others will soon start to respond, but with the same politeness of TSF.


created: 2009-01-23 13:06:40
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I think that in general the AOL was a hint to the society we have now. I think if it was a dystopia people wouldn't refer to it as the Age of Legends. Sure it might have had its flaws, but I don't think RJ was trying to portray it as ideal or perfect, such advanced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-23 15:29:27
subject: <b>A couple of replies</b>
body:
For Mahdis:<br />No disrespect meant to you, but I responded the way I did because I didn&#8217;t see his post as polite as you seem to. He misconstrued points, or took them so far out of context for his &#8220;counter argument&#8221; that they seemed like deliberate attempts to sabotage the idea being put forth without presenting substantive counter information. Almost everything he said was an exorcise in <i>reducto ad absurdum</i> [type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument and derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original claim must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result]. I find this method offensive as it is usually used by one of two mindsets; 1) idiots who don&#8217;t have a clue, 2) malcontents attempting to demean someone else.<br /><br />Perhaps I let my ire get the better of me, but if there were anything truly substantive in his commentary I might have addressed it differently.<br /><br />For Dragonsworn314:<br />In general, I agree. I don&#8217;t think RJ deliberately set out to make the AoL a Dystopia/counter-Utopia. But given how many of the aspects of what we are told about the AoL seem to meet the criteria (or at least can not be actively shown to not meet them), he may have managed it anyway; which is all I was trying to point out. As to the AoL being called the AoL, history and memory are changeable. If the only thing most people remember about that area are the wonders, then their label is sensible however erroneous; it is descriptive of their view. An example of our own time might come from Arthurian Myth. People look at the Round Table and the invention of Chivalry, the Quest for the Holy Grail as such great things. They see mystery and wonder in Merlin&#8217;s magic, blah, blah, blah. There is a great deal of the period (estimated at somewhere between ~250A.D. to ~450A.D.) that people don&#8217;t think about: disease, no running water or sewers, high infant mortality rates, shorter average life spans, crude &#8220;medicine&#8221;, everything stinks really bad all the time, etc., etc. But many still view it with starry eyes and think how great a place it would be to visit. Just because 3rd Agers think the AoL was so great doesn&#8217;t mean it was all milk and honey. Remember, dystopias &#8220;&#8230;appear to be utopian&#8230; but a fatal flaw or other factor (DO released?) has destroyed or twisted the original&#8230; world or concept.&#8221; It still seems to me to fit.<br />


created: 2009-01-23 18:27:24
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Owyn, kind Sir,<br /><br />First off let me state that I voted &quot;For&quot;. Although I do not necessarily agree with all of your points, I would agree that at the very least the AoL was not an utopia.<br /><br />One could argue that anything that is not Utopia is by its' very nature automatically a Dystopia.<br /><br />When something is lacking in health it becomes ill-health.<br /><br />The term &quot;utopia&quot; implies a perfect society in which every individual member of that society is perfectly satisfied with his or her individual circumstances. To strive to better one's circumstances implies that the ones you have are insufficient to meet your needs, and if they do not meet your needs, then the societal circumstances you are in are imperfect, thusly denying the perfection that is required for Utopia.<br /><br />I have an inherent distrust and disbelief in people who make claims about &quot;perfection&quot;. I am Catholic and believe in God's perfection,(which comment I am sure will lose me points amongst some), however, other than in the case of the divine, I do not believe that perfection is attainable.<br /><br />The AoL may have been a very advanced society in which much of what we perceive now to be bad or corrupt did not exist, or only to a minimal extent, but I do not believe that it was ever really thought to be a perfect utopia or that RJ intended it to be perceived as such.<br /><br />Following on from my earlier reasoning therefore, if not Utopia, then by default it has to be a Dystopia.<br /><br />To claim that the AoL was a full-blown antithesis of a utopian society would, however, be I think a somewhat farfetched notion. From what little we know about it, it would seem that the majority of people lived reasonably fullfilling lives in what would probably be regarded as a satisfactory environment.<br /><br />Anyway, whatever the philosophical arguments are, I voted &quot;For&quot;.<br /><br />However, I do feel I need to take issue with your responses to your critics.<br /><br />You invited us to share our thoughts. I have read through the various comments and I have to say I did not find anyone to be making unreasonable or rude comments. Opinions were expressed which were contrary to yours, but 'twas yourself asked for those opinions.<br /><br />The response made to these opinions was on the other hand sharp and aggressive, with at times quite unnecessarily derogatory comments. Let the arguments stand for themselves and let people make up their own minds. Disagreement does not always have to be confrontational and combative.<br /><br />As already mentioned, you invited us to comment. Please do not castigate us for doing so.


created: 2009-01-23 20:17:30
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Well, I enjoyed reading your theory. It was well-researched, and thought out. <br />I agree, technically, that the AoL was a dystopia, but only because it was not a Utopia. So technically, I agree. <br />However, I disagree with what I interpret as the &quot;spirit&quot; of your argument...which points to the core issue, and compares the AoL to literary dystopias like the ones in 1984, or Huxley's Brave New World. <br />I don't think RJ was trying to produce such a piece. I think the AoL was the mostly modern, mostly civilized world that he imagined, but could not place the bulk of his work in because it would be boring, from a literary perspective. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />I gave a thumbs up...but with caveats. <br /><br />


created: 2009-01-23 20:58:07
subject: <b>Thanks for the input</b>
body:
As to the term Dystopia. Perhaps I shorcutted the definitions a little. So, let me clarify:<br /><br />A true dystopian society (the original Greek definition) is one in which the conditions of life are miserable, characterized by human misery, poverty, oppression, violence, disease, and/or pollution.<br /><br />However, some academic circles distinguish between this original view and what is referred to as an anti-utopia, or counter-utopia. Societies like Orwell&#8217;s <i>1984</i> are never intended to look like a Utopia, therefore are classic Dystopias. Others, however, have the mask or fa&#231;ade of a Utopia with that &#8220;fatal flaw&#8221; or &#8220;other factor&#8221; which destroys or otherwise twists the concept. I was attempting merely to show that RJ&#8217;s AoL concept seemed to meet many of the criteria of an anti-/counter-Utopia, an atypical variety of dystopia.<br /><br />I too disbelieve in &#8220;perfection&#8221; outside the concept of the divine, however I do not believe that every non-Utopian society is either a classic or atypical dystopia. The majority of societies are just plain &#8220;normal&#8221;, without going to either extreme.<br /><br />Again, I don&#8217;t think Jordan intended to create a dystopia, but the result seems to look like one.<br /><br />As to blowing my cool: I appreciate the sentiment, and as I&#8217;ve said, I probably let my ire get the best of me. Perhaps I was too aggressive or rude, but as I&#8217;ve already explained the one reply used a tactic considered very &#8220;low&#8221; in debate or rhetoric, to which I took umbrage, perhaps too much.<br /><br />Thank you for the responses, for or against.<br />


created: 2009-01-28 17:28:09
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
Mostly I have issue with the examples you use and the comparisions you draw.  I am not sure who would say that a condition of a dystopia is not having a rural enviorment but that seems to have to much hatred for modernity for me to be a real definition.  What MAKES something a dystopia in my mind is the control the goverment has over the population, for example the idea that a capitalist society could be a dystopia I frankly don't buy.  I found it interesting that practicly every economic or political type that exists could be a dystopia using your definition.  I find that meaningless as it leaves to much up to the political persuasion of the author to define what a dystopia is.  1984 and farenheit 451 (not 45) are dystopias because of government control because of dictatorships not any really of the other factors you use.<br /><br />Using the definition you are using modern America would be considered a dystopia which I wouldn't agree with at all.  <br /><br />I do agree that perfection is impossible and this was shown even in the first book about utopia's written by Thomas Moore and titled simply utopia.  Even here the system set up was certinly not a utopia so much so that the point of the book is commonly considered to be to show how a utopia is impossible.<br /><br />Oh and on the oath rods, I don't find that a symbol of dystopia either, every society has to have a way to deal with criminals.  If any way of dealing with criminals (our prison system, the oath roads) makes you a dystopia then the only utopia would be anarchy, which is ridiculous.<br /><br />Really to me all you have done is show the useless of the second definition of dystopia, which given that it is an academic, scholorly english definition doesn't suprise me much actually.  The literature research I have read has never impressed me much.


created: 2009-01-29 11:17:26
subject: <b>More counter-argument</b>
body:
<i>&#8220;I am not sure who would say that a condition of a dystopia is not having a rural environment&#8221;</i>&#8230; The experts say so.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;seems to have too much hatred for modernity for me to be a real definition&#8221;</i>&#8230; the experts disagree with you.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;the idea that a capitalist society could be a dystopia I frankly don't buy&#8221;</i>&#8230; <i>&#8220;practically every economic or political type that exists could be a dystopia</i>&#8221;&#8230;it is possible to have a dystopic government using a &#8220;benevolent&#8221; front, such as democracy, to disguise its ugly truth. <i>The Matrix</i> is an example: the people are victims of just such a conspiracy of illusion.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;leaves too much up to the political persuasion of the author to define what a dystopia is.&#8221;</i>&#8230;1984 is far from the only example. Look at Aldux Huxley&#8217;s <i>Brave New World</i>. Aldus was the brother of Dr. Julian Huxley. Julian was a proponent of Eugenics and worked heavily with the United Nations&#8217; UNESCO program to implement the U.N.&#8217;s eugenic policies in the third world. Aldus, like his brother, subscribed to such beliefs and those beliefs influenced his literature. Such a connection is central to how authors define their dystopic environments.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;Using the definition you are using modern America would be considered a dystopia which I wouldn't agree with at all.&#8221;</i>&#8230; The U.S. government supports the U.N.&#8217;s known eugenics policies. Is not the U.S. government then guilty of committing such eugenics? Would that not then point to the possibility that the U.S. government might by dystopic&#8230; at least to some degree? I don&#8217;t intend to begin a debate on whether or not America is a Dystopia&#8230;LOL! I&#8217;m having enough trouble defending the idea that the AoL might qualify as one, but&#8230;<br /><br />With all due respect, I think you need to do a great deal more research into the idea of dystopia, particularly the anti-/counter-Utopias often depicted in literature and film. I think you&#8217;re missing some essential insight into the subject matter. You might try <i>Wikipedia</i> first; it provides a very &#8220;in a teacup&#8221; look at what dystopias are and what the basic literary conditions/elements are. Keep it up, though&#8230; I like the give and take&#8230;<br />


created: 2009-01-30 14:03:15
subject: <b>Ah your missing the point though</b>
body:
I don't agree with the experts.  I think the second definition of dystopia is crap.  It is literary masturbation and people trying to find something to write about to get a pHD in literature.  Most of what passes for literary research these days I don't have a lot of respect for.  Having to many English pHD's having to find things to publish is how we get such stupid arguments as whether or not Shakespeare wrote his own plays.  I spent a lot of time reading dystopias in high school and college and talking about them, I am very familiar with the ideas I just don't subscribe to them.  I MUCH prefer an urban environment to a rural one.  Yes people who don't want to really work and just read and &quot;think&quot; want me to think cites are bad but I don't agree with them.  I have no problem disagree with &quot;experts&quot;.<br /><br />Granted that governments can use the IDEA of democracy or capitalism or socialism to HIDE a dystopia but according to your definition (and that of the experts) a society can BE capitalist, democratic or socialist and be a dystopia.  There is a BIG difference between BEING a democracy and being a dictatorship HIDING behind a fake democracy.<br /><br />Ok the UN eugenics policies if they had any were a LOOOOONG time ago.  I have seen no evidence that Huxley was a proponent of eugenics in fact his dystopia makes eugenics look BAD along with social engineering.  Authors don't make things look bad they agree with.  The US is not perfect and it does somethings that I don't agree with now and in the past.  But it isn't an economic or political dictatorship so I can't call it a dystopia, now CHINA on the other hand...


created: 2009-01-30 18:29:18
subject: <b>I guess we'll have to agree to disagree</b>
body:
Disagreeing with the experts can cause problems. That's like saying that you don't like the definition of AIDS so nobody has it, or you don't like the definition of abortion so none have ever been done. Only your definition counts? How about if you don't like how Nazism is defined, therefore WWII Germany wasn't? Silly...<br /><br />Governments using the idea of democracy (or any other 'benevolent' system) is part of the concept. If the AS of the AoL were in fact a quasi-religious oligarchy, and their entire economic system seems to emulate a 'free market' like we have, then they're one thing and masquerading as another...dystopic<br /><br />The UN's eugenics policies are ongoing today. Just do some research into UNESCO and see what they're doing in Africa. Over the years millions of women have been sterilized against their knowledge and will through the use of chemically tainted &quot;vaccines&quot;. This is deliberate, a part of the UN's still active eugenics policies. Look it up.<br /><br />But, this whole discussion is getting way too far away from the original point. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and let it lay there.


created: 2009-02-01 14:10:23
subject: <b>Excellent post as usual</b>
body:
My first post on WoTmania, I know the site will close and I've been lurking for too long to let it go without a least one post on my thoughts.<br />Owyn Reborn, I do agree with you on the conclusion but not fully on the points you make, but your description of a Dystopia is well researched and does credit to your devellopment, anyone who strongly disagree should look at dispelling your most valid points not from their own perspectives, but, and regardless of personal belief, from an academic standpoint.<br />As it has been said before I doubt RJ depicted the AoL to be a dystopia but rather the Age of Legends he names it, but due to the very needs of making it appear such an enlightened age with such a short length of textual space we are left with convoluted glimpses. And the less we know of something the more we have to guess. <br />I do not like Regulations too much and there certainly must be many to achieve such a setting as we are shown, there is certainly a sense of an oligarchy represented by the AS, they represent the best in everything we are showed. <br />As for debates about eugenics and RL politics there are many forums where those can be discuted in depth.<br />


created: 2009-02-01 16:05:26
subject: <b>Npt proven</b>
body:
Sorry, none of your arguments used to support your thesis are valid.<br /><br />1) The abscence of independent religion is no more a aign of a dystopia here than it is in Tolkien's world. In both universes, the divine and demonic powers are visibly manifest on earth, leaving religious debates obsolete.<br /><br />2) You have not given any evidence to support your thesis that the AoL Aes Sedai was an oligarchi. According to the available evidence, the Aes Sedai was not a closed clique, but rather open to all with the sufficient skills. <br /><br />3) Even if dytopias are commonly urban, that does not mesn that urban life is commonly dystopic. All cats are animals, bjut not all animals are cats. <br /><br />4) Every society has a kind of politcal system. You migt as well have said that soince all dystopias are populated by humans, and AoL is populated by humans, so AoL must be a dystopia, or in the words of the Norwegian author Holberg: &quot;A stone cannot fly. Mother Nille cannot fly. Thus, Mother Nille is a stone.&quot;<br /><br />5) You merely say the dystopias can be of different kinds, but give not evidence for why AoL should be regarded as such.     <br /><br />6) AoL was no disaster, the collapse of AoL was. Again,m you merely select some elements and argue that since they with sufficient creativity could be interpreted in a certain way therefore they should be so interpreted. Frankly, your reasoning reminds me of &quot;Holy Blood, Holy Grail&quot;, to me your argument is equally ludicrous.  <br /><br />Further, one cannot say as some of your suppoorters do, that if it's not an utopia, then it's a dystopia. In the case, only those with bipolar disease can be considered normal. Most worlds, whether real or fictional, are neither utopias nor dystopias.


created: 2009-02-01 23:52:03
subject: <b>um yeah</b>
body:
No the UN is not some evil world government.  The places on the internet talking about it are crazy anti goverment screeds remember that anyone can post anything on the internet.  This is why wikpedia is NEVER a good source for anything.  Most of the time I agree with experts especially when it comes to science but for something like english criticism and especially when it is mixed with politics (as it would obviously be when talking about utopias) I keep my own counsel.  The age of legends doesn't fit with 1984 or with brave new world and I see no evidence that they controlled the government in anyway.<br /><br />The being urban and that somehow being &quot;evil&quot; I have no respect for sorry.  Seems to anti technology for me (something I see in much literary criticism these days)


created: 2009-02-02 09:56:51
subject: <b>This is getting old</b>
body:
For <i>dacole</i>:<br />I wasn&#8217;t attempting to prove that the UN was Lucifer&#8217;s tool in the world. Your commentary about an author&#8217;s political persuasion affecting their writing is what prompted me to use what I felt an obvious comparison of just how this is the case. Both Huxleys were exposed to the same belief system. Julian took active measures to demonstrate his view, while Aldus took to writing about his. Julian was patently pro-eugenics. Whether one believes Aldus pro or con mostly depends on how one interprets what he wrote. Either way, however, Aldus&#8217;s writings were influenced by his politics, and it is just such writings of a number of people, over time, that leave us with the definitions and criteria of dystopia we have today.  As I&#8217;ve said before, we&#8217;ll just have to agree to disagree.<br /><br />For <i>Elendil</i>:<br /><i>&#8220;we are left with convoluted glimpses&#8221;</i>. I agree completely, and I&#8217;ve commented on this previously. We know very little truly substantive about the AoL, and <u>any</u> presumptions we make about it are subject to doubt and counter argument. My point was that, given what we do have, a dystopic view of the AoL is not out of order. I was merely attempting to show how what is known <u>could</u> fit the criteria usually associated with such a state. The commentary about eugenics, et al, was supposed to be merely supportive of how a supposedly &#8220;democratic&#8221; (or other seemingly benevolent) governmental system could actually be dystopic, not just a fa&#231;ade.  I agree it goes a bit far off the central matter, and I said so in my 1-30-09 reply to <i>dacole</i> when I said <i>&#8221;this whole discussion is getting way too far away from the original point&#8221;</i>.<br /><br />For <i>Worm</i>:<br />I really don&#8217;t understand what it is about this subject that engenders such vituperative commentary. I see no reason to attempt to set the record straight&#8230;again. I&#8217;ve already addressed the majority of your comments in previous posts which you&#8217;ve apparently not read, or are deliberately ignoring&#8230;so I will decline to rise to your obvious bait with further expostulations of the obvious.<br />


created: 2009-02-08 14:57:01
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
I'll not bring up the UN again though I expect your political views are shaping your views on this work.  But then stories are always a combined building between both the author and the reader.  You are correct that where we get the definition of a dystopia is from what has been written but honestly your definition is not one I have seen in places that I have much faith in.  Wikipedia yes but I have no faith in that.  I took several highish english classes in college (I like classic literature) and my first english class in high school was basically a discussion of anti-utopias (1984, brave new world, lord of the flies, utopia (thomas moore) grapes of wrath) and the second definition is not one I have come across.<br /><br />Your answers to the academic holes people have brought up have not been very convincing.  As to why it brings up such vitrol several reasons.<br />1. People here are more interested in WOT than normal people so anything that touches how we view it has the potential to get our dander up<br />2. Your interpretation would signifigantly change how we view the work (to see how these first to things might work imagine an argument between some Shakespeare scholars on if Shakespeare actually wrote his works or not)<br />3. As has been said since the age of legends was somewhat supposed to be reminiscent of modern times, calling it a dystopia is tantamount to calling modern times in first world countries a dystoipia anything that deals with politics as this does is always problematic.


created: 2009-02-20 01:23:36
subject: <b>No flaws...</b>
body:
I'll have to disagree.   You did not actually prove there was any flaw.  The closest you have come is with the chora trees as a control device.  But considering Mat's experience it is much more likely to me that they had other applications, perhaps increasing people's longevity (hence naming it the tree of life).  The rest sounds hollow and seems to be a product of your interpretation.  Power hungry Forsaken would not have left the Hall if power was readily available there.  The reference to bleak wilderness could very well refer to the fact that the DO was touching the world more strongly and that blighted areas were more prevalent... quite honestly if you stick to the time before the bore was drilled there is no flaw to be seen except forgetting that the DO existed.  And i would say that is a flaw of all Utopias to forget what evil looks like.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-21 22:10:15
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
<br />Charn made his way down the side of the wide, crowded street beneath the spreading chora trees, their trefoil leaves spreading peace and contentment in the shadows of silvery buildings that touched the sky. A city without choras would seem bleak as wilderness. Jo-cars hummed quietly down the street, and a great white sho-wing darted across the sky, carrying citizens to Comelle or Tzora or somewhere. He seldom used the sho-wings, himself&#8212;if he needed to go very far, an Aes Sedai usually Traveled with him&#8212;but tonight he would, to M&#8217;jinn. Today was his twenty-fifth naming day, and tonight he intended to accept Nalla&#8217;s latest offer of marriage. He wondered if she would be surprised; he had been putting her off for a year, not wanting to settle down. It would mean changing his service to Zorelle Sedai, whom Nalla served, but Mierin Sedai had already given her blessing.<br /><br />i wouldnt say that they have no trees, infact the atmosphere feels like a utopia


created: 2009-08-13 17:36:44
subject: <b>An Atypical Dystopia=Oxymoron</b>
body:
&quot;An atypical dystopia&quot; as you call it, isn't a dystopia. It may not be an utopia but it's not dystopic if it's atypical. <br />Taking a look at the evidence you present. here's another alternative interpretation: <br />The AOL is a technologically advanced society <br />1)which cares for the environment (planting trees, planning cities, maintaining rustic retreats, wildernesses) <br />2) has apparently clean energy sources (the OP) and looks to improve on these energy sources(with disastrous effects), <br />3) allows a wide range of professions, <br />4)offers residents economic freedom (if they have investment advisers, they have the freedom to earn incomes and invest those in ways they choose). <br />5) has eradicated war and disease and apparently also abject poverty ( since there are no beggars on the crowded streets before the Bore)<br />Your other points, <br />A lot of very &quot;non-dystopic societies&quot;, (Western Europe, Scandinavia) place little stress on religion so the lack of religion cannot really be a qualifier for dystopia.<br />The &quot;oligarchy&quot; of the AoL as you term it, is actually a meritocracy, open to anybody who can channel - that's approximately 3% of the population. That is a very large population base. Actual oligarchies tend to restrict policy-making to 1% of 1% of the population. <br />Hell, admission to a decent college is more restricted if you go by SAT/ baccalaureate/ A levels type meritocratic tests where a Harvard takes only the 98th percentile up. <br />Even highly democratic regimes see policy making by a much smaller percentage of the population (50 governors and 525 Congressmen + president and appointed few for 300 million citizens if you're talking about the US).<br />The Aiel are also a voluntary meritocracy - they can &quot;sing&quot; and choose to. Given that channelers are not forced to become AS and presumably nobody is forced to became a researcher or healer, the Aiel surely take their oaths of non-violence voluntarily. <br />Also you're extrapolating that there is no universal one-person vote/ plebiscite system on decisions because the actual political structure is not described. Well, for all you know, the AS of the AoL are bureaucrats. <br />LTT isn't described as the World President, he heads the Hall of Servants which sounds more like a senior bureaucratic post. That would be a reasonable extrapolation of the fragmentary info we possess. <br />The bore occurs because the Hall of Servants funds scientific research into a new energy source (AS bureaucrats allocate budgets for research) and that causes an emergency where all normal policy-making systems are necessarily suspended. <br />So another interpretation based on the same info, is that the AoL is not a dystopia; it is a society that is better than most that we see at first hand without being an Utopia. (An Utopia would be a place where the DO touched the world and everybody refused to follow him).  <br />


created: 2009-02-15 16:44:48
subject: <b>2 things</b>
body:
The clothes that she was wearing when Alviarin grabbed the hem were Green silk with bronze embroidery. In Cot after the panic button was pushed.  In TPOD it was bronze with black embroidery<br /><br />And Bandar Eben is accessible by river from Illian they dont have to travel around the coast.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2009-02-15 18:44:56
subject: <b>Pretty good, but the physical appearance is still bugging me.</b>
body:
Arguing that they since they look nothing alike, so she must be using the Mask of Mirrors doesn't make sense. Some of the other things might make sense, but that argument still doesn't work for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-16 09:08:31
subject: <b>Another hole?</b>
body:
<i>&quot;Finally, Logain and his amusement. He seems amused when Zaida asks the whereabouts of Rand, and he says he cannot tell her, saying &quot;The Forsaken have made efforts to kill him.&quot; (to make an anchor weep, KoD). This points to either there being darkfriends in the room, i.e. Zaida, or, in fact, one of the Forsaken, Mesaana.&quot;</i><br /><br />Even if there was a darkfriend or a Forsaken there, how would Logain know?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-17 14:30:27
subject: <b>Could have...</b>
body:
... is not enough, as he could've slipped it in for a thousand other reasons. I think there's a far more plausible explanation. Forsaken do want to kill Rand all the time, and even if that's not why he's not advertising where he is, it's a very good excuse.<br /><br />And IIRC, Logain is an asshole sometimes, as much as I like him. He has the upper hand in that situation, he knows what they don't, he ain't telling them and hell, how he enjoys watching them stew. Perfectly in character for him, as far as I can remember from the last time I read the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-19 15:17:52
subject: <b>two reasons i like this</b>
body:
one, i combed the books after reading about the bronze skirt and the bronze scrolling, and amylia is the only character in bronze. two, going along with shaidar haran's nasty sense of humor, she was a disatisfued teacher in the AoL and forcing her into that role again would definitely be punishing, especially to a hard taskmistress, whether or not Zaidi is a darkfriend. i vote yes!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-20 11:20:50
subject: <b>It's a bit thin...</b>
body:
..but I suppose it&#8217;s possible. After all, we&#8217;ve had thinner clues elsewhere: The Olver/Cain problem and the &#8220;intuitive&#8221; aspect of &#8220;Who killed Asmodean?&#8221; Maybe Jordan did it again&#8230;<br /><br />It&#8217;s the best we&#8217;ve had so far, so why not?<br />


created: 2009-02-24 10:55:08
subject: <b>Nice theory ...</b>
body:
Well thought out and definitely worth reading.  But in the end, I disagree.  The major reason being ... in KoD ch.3 (the Ansaline Gardens Forsaken meeting), Mesaana's comments indicate that she is still fully involved in her White Tower plots.  That would not be possible if, as you suggest, Shaidar Haran punished her by making her Zaida's lackey.<br /><br />I think Amylia is simply a Brown from the Silver Swan, nothing more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-26 12:49:58
subject: <b>Right...</b>
body:
I wrote this theory mainly on the bronze skirts thing, and I couldn't remember where that detail was, so thanks to Squocka for telling me. That does seem to throw the whole thing off completely now, but it was only circumstantial in the first place.<br /> I don't quite get how Bandar Eban is accessible by River from Illian, unless you found a way of getting a raker over the Mountains of Mist, but when I look back the point is moot anyway, as it is rand's orders and has absolutely nothing to do with Mesaana.<br />As for the physical appearance thing, I said it was a hole, and that I believed her to be using the Mask of Mirrors, not that I knew that she was and had any proof. A bit I missed before was that Mesaana was described as having blue eyes, in CoT, and the Mask is less likely to slip if it is as close to the original as possible. Then again, that is kind of a moot point as well, if she is using the Mask.<br />With the Logain thing, again, I see that the point is kind of moot, unless, as suggested by come_to_steal_a_pie, it is Jordan giving us a hint. However, I do think that Naroia has the best explanation on that point, that it is just Logain.<br />Finally, I don't know how much time has passed between that point and the meeting at the Ansaline Gardens, but I think that a point I originally missed out comes into play. Amylia was punished for trying to escape, three times, and the weave for travelling is being &quot;kept from her.&quot; We know that she only taught Alviarin that weave out of the whole Black Ajah, and so, perhaps, both the Windfinders and Mesaana are under orders not to give away that particular weave. I accept that she still porbably has plans in place within the Tower, but surely the Tower is divided enough by now that it no longer requires the direct attention of one of the Forsaken. It could also be that she was forced to flee, in a similar situation to Aran'gar in Egwene's camp, through some hitherto unknown discovery, or due to the fact that there are Aes Sedai hunting down the Black Ajah. It would be reasonable to her that if she is caught, more is lost than if she simply has to flee. The fact that Alviarin has been given direct orders from Shaidar Haran also seem to infer to me that Mesaana is no longer needed in the Tower, and could be useful, as well as punished, more effectively elsewhere.<br /><br />Thanks for all the comments, you have all helped me to improve the theory, which it did kinda need. As it is, I'm down to about three points now, so this is starting to look kinda unlikely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'til shade is gone, 'til water is gone, yeah, yeah, bring on Tarmon Gai'don already! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-03-14 13:06:45
subject: <b>getting past Ebou Dar</b>
body:
Sailing through the river systems of the Westlands is NOT an option. We seem to be forgetting the cost that was paid to get the Sea Folk survivors out of Ebou Dar. Many were killed and a lot of the Rakers had to be abandoned/scuttled in favor of the larger, higher capacity and over all sturdier Seanchan greatships(for lack of a better term). Furthermore the mere fact that they were able to get the Seanchan ships <i>away</i> means that the Sea Folk Windfinders are now able to wage a naval battle involving the Power. The old ratio of one Windfinder per ship does not even exist anymore, as there are not enough ships. What they have however, is still more than the Seanchan will have. Especially as the Seanchan concentrate their efforts inland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-21 16:43:25
subject: <b>quite possible</b>
body:
i would say i have to agree to a point.  do remember though that in one of the earlier books, im only up to FOH right now, nynaeve was told she could sooner heal back a lost hand than bring someone back from the dead, i believe. it was dead or heal a stilled woman.  small clues like this have a way of biting you in the ass occasionally.  it is entirely possible that some mix of the two ideas could come about, a functioning cuendillar hand...   i digress.  please forgive the obnoxious lack of proper referencing, im going to start indexing things on my next go through.


created: 2009-02-23 16:06:03
subject: <b>I like it but...</b>
body:
I always thought that from the nynaeve bit where she's like<br /><br />&quot;sooner heal a severed hand&quot;<br /><br />that nynaeve would be the one to heal his hand. Though it may be that she is just setting it up for Elayne. I really like the idea of a silver sa'angreal hand. that would be beyond awesome and completely out the blue. Good job.


created: 2009-02-24 11:32:20
subject: <b>Good Parallels</b>
body:
But even though it's not impossible I doubt Rand'll get a new hand, at least not like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-28 05:58:28
subject: <b>Not a silver hand, but ...</b>
body:
a new natural hand. I wondered when some one would remember Ny'naeve's early statement about healing a severed hand. I also can't remember the exact location, but it's in one of the early books. Given RJ's penchant for foreshadowing I think that this one is important. Might the loss of Rand's hand be an opportunity for her to re-discover another lost ability, or, perhaps using an a'dam, extract this knowledge directly from Semi?


created: 2009-03-04 01:23:43
subject: <b>Healing Hand</b>
body:
Nynaeve is not the one to heal Rand's hand. Let us not forget Min's viewing of Elayne when we first meet Min. One of the things she saw floating around Elayne, (TGH: New Friends and Old Enemies) is a severed hand. <br />&quot;Not mine, she says. She claims she does not know what it means, either.&quot;<br />Since she hasn't come across any severed hands yet, I figure it's Elayne's job to fix this one. I do like the thought of it being a ter'angreal. Kinda reminds me of Ash in the 'Evil Dead' series!!<br /><br />&quot;Klatoo... Varata... NECKTIE!!! Damn it... it's deffinately an 'n' word!&quot;


created: 2009-03-12 17:11:05
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Well thought out argument. I agree with your major statements and most of the minor ones.<br /><br />However, could you please explain how you find issue with something like the Big White Book and the Glossaries of the WOT books? Or were you talking only about WOT sites not written by Jordan when you say &quot;Insight and information from characters and other &quot;in-story&quot; sources is not always trustworthy&quot; IMHO, Jordan's word should be canon and it seems the BWB and the book glossaries are facts, not opinions of any characters. I agree with you that we can question the WOTFAQ.<br /><br />In regards to Mat's link to the Horn. I think Verin will be back in the Tower by the time Egwene takes control of it. Egwene will find out about the Horn and being the typical stubborn/stupid Two River's woman, she will blow the Horn to bring the Heroes to stop the Seachan invasion. And since the link to Mat was cut, it will work for her, solidifying her hold on the Tower. <br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2009-03-13 08:58:31
subject: <b>Buncha things.</b>
body:
<i>&quot;The non-incarnated soul of a Hero (LTT in this case) was added to (attached, melded, or interwoven -- to use Jordan's &quot;spinning&quot;&quot; metaphor) to Rand's incarnated soul making Rand the ta'veren, not LTT; the result is a fused composite. Jordan verifies this by saying that Rand's case is &quot;one soul with two personalities&quot; [Barnes &amp; Noble book signing, NY NY, 7 Jan 1993]&quot;</i><br /><br />Wait, I may have missed something, but where is the evidence that suggests it's a melding of two souls, rather than, as Jordan says, &quot;one soul with two personalities&quot;? If it's perfectly possible for an ordinary soul to have many different personalities throughout the ages (though I don't think we see an explicit indication of that, IMHO it's a more likely default than a soul always producing the same personality), why do we need a more complicated explanation for special souls?<br /><br /><i>&quot;From Thus Spake the Creator, RJ says: &quot;Who says that what Gaidal has been reborn to do is to fight the Last Battle? There is more to do to keep the Pattern on course than the Last Battle.&quot; [Robert Jordan, SciFi Chat, Nov 14 2000] [emphasis added]. Using the word &quot;reborn&quot; Jordan verifies that Cain has been &quot;spun out&quot; (quashing notions that one or more Forsaken trashed him in TAR) and is therefore the HH soul making someone else ta'veren.&quot;</i><br /><br />And also quashing (or at least weakening) your argument that Gaidal's being &quot;spun out&quot; means he isn't actually born but added to an already living person.<br /><br /><i>&quot;If every person who became ta'veren heard the soul of a &quot;dead&quot; person in their head, they would all most likely go insane.&quot;</i><br /><br />Luckily, at least some of them (Perrin) don't seem to have any connection to dead people. (And I don't remember what I wanted to say with this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><i>&quot;Rand could not channel prior to becoming ta'veren, the moment when LTT's channeling-capable soul was interwoven with his.&quot;</i><br /><br />That looks more like coincidence to me. Don't boys start channelling at a slightly older age than girls anyway? If I remember that correctly, there's no need to invoke an additional explanation.<br /><br />(And, of course, there are good plot reasons for Rand's ability to be activated when it is)<br /><br /><i>&quot;What happens in TAR is real in the waking world. A person who is injured or dies in TAR has the same thing happen to them for real.&quot;</i><br /><br />Aside: That makes me wonder. If you imagine yourself with curly hair and a tongue piercing and you wake up like that, will you have curly hair and a hole in your tongue until you dream yourself back to normal? <br /><br />Incidentally, did anyone in WoT change their body in TAR and wake up without changing back? I wonder if changes other than being beaten up or burnt (Trolloc nightmare scene, etc.) ever carry over into the real world in the books.<br /><br />Also, is there an example of someone healing themselves or others in TAR? I mean, if you can look like someone else just because you can imagine it, healing injuries ought to be a piece of cake in TAR.<br /><br /><i>&quot;RJ's statement is clear: Mat died. Jordan said this fulfills the prophecy. Mat died and the connection has been <br />broken&#195;&#402;&#198;&#8217;&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#197;&#161;&#195;&#402;&#226;&#8364;&#353;&#195;&#8218;&#194;&#161;&#195;&#402;&#198;&#8217;&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#197;&#161;&#195;&#402;&#226;&#8364;&#353;&#195;&#8218;&#194;&#173;period. His &quot;resurrection&quot; with balefire did not  reestablish the Horn link.&quot;</i><br /><br />RJ said nothing about the connection there, and balefire <i>is</i> a kind of &quot;undo&quot; function in the WoT world. It wasn't a resurrection so much as making his death not have happened at all. I think this question is still open.<br /><br />As for the paradox of memory, it's a bit random to say that severing the link is something the Wheel had to do in order to resolve the paradox. The way to resolve the paradox would be either to make the witnesses forget, or keep Mat dead. If the Wheel can't do that, why can it cut the link despite the fact that Mat's death didn't actually happen?<br /><br />(By the way, people are good at remembering things that didn't happen. Human memory needn't cause a paradox <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-03-13 16:06:40
subject: <b>The Guide</b>
body:
For SilverFox<br /><br />I don&#8217;t necessarily have any &#8220;issue&#8221; with the Guide, other than that with at least one deliberate &#8220;red herring&#8221; on Jordan&#8217;s part using an in-story source (Olver=Cain), the rest by default have to become suspect as a matter of course, at least for the conscientious researcher and theorist. The Guide is an in-story source, being &#8220;written&#8221; apparently from the perspective of a 4th age researcher, maybe even Aes Sedai. It can be used, but should be backed up with other sources (in-story or out) if possible. For example, the information about the Forsaken may be some of the most comprehensive we have, but its emphasis on information not supportable by any other source makes it possible for someone to misconstrue it and make observations which cannot be supported well when challenged. The comments was a caution, not an intent to discount.<br />


created: 2009-03-13 16:55:10
subject: <b>Some expanded explanation</b>
body:
Naraoia:<br /><br /><i>If it's perfectly possible for an ordinary soul to have many different personalities throughout the ages&#8230; why do we need a more complicated explanation for special souls?</i><br /><br />I guess it depends on whether or not one believes that all Horn Heroes are ta&#8217;veren &#8211; that ta&#8217;verenness is an inherent property of Heroness &#8211; that the two are inextricably the same thing. If this is so, then it violates Jordan&#8217;s comment &#8220;no one is born ta&#8217;veren&#8221;. Rand is LTT reborn, a Jordan admitted HH. If being a HH makes one ta&#8217;veren as well, then and one cannot be born ta&#8217;veren, then one also cannot be born a Hero. That attribute has to be an add-on at a later time. Rand&#8217;s soul then would be one belonging to the body (at conception or birth, doesn&#8217;t matter) and the attributes of Heroness and ta&#8217;verenness are added later, such as with The Boys&#8230;just before Moiraine arrived. Treat it like two parallel threads being woven macram&#233; style. One thread is Rand, the other is LTT. At one point they&#8217;re separate, the next they&#8217;re together, acting as a single unit for a while, later they can be separated again. While together they&#8217;re &#8220;the same&#8221; in that they occupy the same &#8220;space&#8221; and do the same job. They are effectively &#8220;one&#8221; for that purpose. Certain properties about them can be very different like colors (personalities?) but they&#8217;ve been woven together in a way that only those differences are detectable.<br /><br /><i>And also quashing (or at least weakening) your argument that Gaidal's being &quot;spun out&quot; means he isn't actually born but added to an already living person.</i><br /><br />This was using the same context as Rand being the Dragon &#8220;Reborn&#8221;. If it fits one, it fits both.<br /><br /><i>Luckily, at least some of them (Perrin) don't seem to have any connection to dead people.</i><br /><br />We don&#8217;t know this. Just because neither we nor Perrin hear anything, doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s not there. Remember, Rand&#8217;s case is almost totally unique. Information on LTT says nothing about him hearing voices prior to going nuts upon sealing the Bore. Hawkwing has no information about hearing voices. Perrin and Mat don&#8217;t exhibit any such phenomena. The only other known ta&#8217;veren, Mabriam Shereed, doesn&#8217;t have enough information to say one way or another, but one would think that if it were an issue something might have been said. Janduin, Rand&#8217;s father, is suspected of ta&#8217;verenness, but nothing from the Aiel about him given any hint at dead voices in his head. Birgitte and Rand are the only two useful examples we have &#8211; the pattern seems to be for a suppression of memory, why not consciousness as well? These souls are added in for the purpose of creating ta&#8217;veren, but if there&#8217;s too much personality, memory and stuff (like Rand has) floating around that makes the recipient more of a clone of an existing HH (which is what Rand is supposed to be, not necessarily Perrin or Mat) and leaves little to no room for any other ta&#8217;veren to make the grade in their own right and achieve HH status for themselves, rather that just reconfirming that status in the &#8220;ride along&#8221; soul.<br /><br /><i>&quot;Rand could not channel prior to becoming ta'veren, the moment when LTT's channeling-capable soul was interwoven with his.&quot;<br /><br />That looks more like coincidence to me. Don't boys start channelling at a slightly older age than girls anyway? If I remember that correctly, there's no need to invoke an additional explanation.<br /><br />(And, of course, there are good plot reasons for Rand's ability to be activated when it is)</i><br /><br />The timing is explicit. Just as Jordan&#8217;s comment about when the Seanchan force arriving at Falme was a matter of deliberate timing, and the time of day shifts when Rand chases Aviendha through her gateway, The Boys became what they were when they did for a specific dramatic purpose. That&#8217;s obvious. But let&#8217;s ask why they didn&#8217;t became ta&#8217;veren sooner? Having that much ta&#8217;verenness active in such a limited area all at the same time might have changed when Moiraine showed up, it might have caused all kinds of interesting effects around the 2R that could have affected how they dealt with outsiders, etc., Rand might have started channeling sooner and been adversely affected by the taint even before reaching the EotW, perhaps more susceptible to the blandishments and influence of the Forsaken there. It wasn&#8217;t coincidence. As for when boys start channeling, that&#8217;s part of the dramatic effect Jordan created and used. There&#8217;s noting heavily ulterior about it, it&#8217;s just an example of how economic RJ was in his use of the various information and phenomena.<br /><br /><i>RJ said nothing about the connection there, and balefire is a kind of &quot;undo&quot; function in the WoT world. It wasn't a resurrection so much as making his death not have happened at all. I think this question is still open.</i><br /><br />Did you read the analogy of the knotted rope? It&#8217;s just an idea. There&#8217;s every possibility that Mat is still connected to the Horn, admittedly. If Mat&#8217;s &#8220;resurrection&#8221; by Balefire truly undid everything, including reestablishing the link broken by death, fine. But there&#8217;s still paradox to deal with. In some of the research information, one inevitably runs across the &#8220;Gasp&#8221; moment when RJ&#8217;s asked about what happens if the Horn and the Dragon Banner are on opposite sides. He says that would cause a &#8220;rift&#8221; or some sort of tear or rupture in the Pattern. Even Harriet seemed astonished that he would say something like that, leaving many people to believe just this sort of scene could become part of the story later on. For that to occur &#8211; the Horn blown by one side and the Banner controlled by another there are a limited number of possibilities.<br /><br />1)	Mat is still connected and the Dark Side gets hold of the Banner. Doubtful as Rand is just as careful about keeping it near him as he was with the Cheodan Khal (sp?).<br />2)	Mat turns to the Dark Side and blows the Horn for them. Again, doubtful. I don&#8217;t think RJ built Mat up as the greatest military practitioner of the last 3k years just to have him suddenly subverted to the Dark One.<br />3)	The Dark Side manages to steal the Horn and blow it themselves and it works, meaning Mat cannot still be connected to it.<br /><br />My explanation is one that helps explain why he wouldn&#8217;t be connected any more that&#8217;s all.<br /><br />


created: 2009-03-18 14:28:54
subject: <b>well.....</b>
body:
i tend to think that birgitte will die at the last battle, and whatever gaidal cain was spun out to do will either involve getting her to die or something they will do after the battle is over (when she has been readded to the HH list and ends up back in tel'aran'rhiod). <br /><br />i do not agree that HH are ta'veren, helping to found the white tower is important, yes, but does not imply that she and he warped threads to their mission. <br /><br />ugh, i have so many thoughts about this, but i really should be working. oh, and yes you can use the one power on the HH souls in tel'aran....how else was birgitte manhandled, shrunk into a child and ripped out? there must be some human element there for moggy to have worked with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2009-03-20 00:14:40
subject: <b>Regarding Souls</b>
body:
I also fail to see why Ta'verenness requires soul grafting.<br /><br />The general impression I get from Loial's description in tEotW Moraines warning on the dangers of balefire, the description in the guide and Jordan's statements is that  Ta'verenness can be a temporary thing. In other words, once the pattern has rebalanced and the need for the bending is gone you can stop being Ta'veren. As such someone may only need to be Ta'veren for a short period and influence a very limited area. The job they have to do may not require the bravery, dedication and  force of will that seems to characterize a HH merely an extra dose of charisma and the slight nudging of probabilities for a successful outcome.  <br /><br />Soul Grafting makes the idea of reborn heroes more complicated than necessary. Taking your template analogy, soul grafting  would be like creating a document then dropping a formatting template on top of it and forcing the already existing document to fit. Much simpler and cleaner to start with the  template and then fill in the necessary details. <br /><br />Additionaly your theory requires that HH==Ta'veren. However we know that Birgitte was active during the Power War at the end of the second age. But that only  Moghedden knew  that she was some how special. Given that there is a known talent for seeing  Ta'veren ( Nicola and  Logain both have it) if she had been Ta'veren  in that instance then it would have been noticed  by some one. Birgitte herself says in each life she was not aware of her special status. <br /><br />I would argue that Ta'verenness is a aspect of a life thread that can be switched on and off.  As an example one of the  Questions of the week was.<br /><br />Week 13 Question: If a wolfbrother is reborn in another Age, will he be a wolfbrother again? In other words, is being a wolfbrother a trait related to the soul? Can women be wolfbrothers?<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers: A wolfbrother or wolfsister reborn in another age would only be a wolfbrother or wolfsister again if that were possible in that Age. The ability to speak with wolves doesn't exist in every Age. In the &quot;current&quot; Age, it is a fairly new thing, appearing not too long ago. <br /> <br />Which indicates that soul inherent abilities are always there but not always active. By your own  argument  only a life thread can have the quality &quot;Ta'veren&quot;. Heros of the Horn  are likely often chosen as Ta'veren because the Pattern has a very good model of their behaviors. A statement RJ made to John Hamby at a post-TPOD signing: &quot;Gender/soul rebirth, he said, is best illustrated by Mat and Birgitte.&quot; In other words a reborn soul tends to fall in to the same patterns of behavior in each life. But the role of the HH is to  act in certain  specific heroic ways the task of Ta'veren is to influence the people around them. These two tasks don't necessarily go together.<br /><br />In any case I say that a Ta'veren is created  not by co mingling of souls but by bestowing or activating   an ability


created: 2009-03-23 11:06:12
subject: <b>very interesting, but I think I disagree</b>
body:
I really like this theory and am astounded at the thought and research put into it (and the other 10,000 theories you have posted in the last couple months). I think we have to reconsider, however, how ta'veren work, and what TAR really is. <br /><br />First, we know that ta'veren are not born so. This means that it is not a constant or intrinsic characteristic of the life thread. You suggest that it works via some kind of grafting. Some have said that your theory only works if HH=ta'veren. I disagree. The grating idea could work in a number of ways by which a HH &quot;soul&quot; is grafted onto another thread making them a HH, but not a ta'veren. Likewise, a ta'veren HH &quot;soul&quot; could be grafted to a life thread to make a ta'veren. You could even jettison the &quot;soul&quot; idea and say that the wheel filters/charges/structures a life thread with some algorithm that we call a HH. This way you do not have to say there are two souls occupying a single thread. <br /><br />However, I think this grafting idea not only does a great injustice to HH like Birgitte, but runs counter to everything else we know about RJ's world and his general philosophy. He goes to tremendous lengths to demonstrate that souls and lives in this world still have free will. Indeed, that is why ta'veren and &quot;corrective mechanisms&quot; are required in the first place. Further, he shows that Birgitte has free will in her disobedience of the strictures of the heroes. This also raises the question of why would such rules exist if the heroes are mere templates produced by the wheel? We also observe that Birgitte remembers entire lives (she would probably mention if she only could recall moments), in which she is at one point a young child and Gaidal is an older man. Now that Moghedien has ripped her out before time, that cycle may have reversed (Min's viewing describes an endless cycle of lives tied to another man who is sometimes much older and sometimes younger). Birgitte cannot remember (even while still in TAR) far enough back to when she was older, but that does not mean it never happened. <br />RJ also suggests that free will and life choices can result in a thread becoming a new member of the HH. This indicates that the wheel chooses HH after trial runs, or picks from existing options, not that it makes them. <br /><br />Now back to Rand and LT. A number of theories could explain why Rand hears LT, but I tend to think that it has a great deal to do with the Taint. I believe that the voices mad channelers hear may in fact always be from past incarnations. Who wouldn't go nuts with dead voices in their head? Especially if one consciousness seized control? But the point I really want to make here is that Rand hears LT as if LT had just died. There is no sense that LT had been hanging out in TAR, and I believe this very important. <br /><br />Usually, when a soul is reborn, they have no recollection of their past life. When a person dies the thread may not necessarily be cut. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to see it as being lifted out of the weave until rebirth when it is reinserted. Memory operating in time-space, however, allows the newly inserted thread to remember only in the plane of the weave, thus it cannot remember anything before it was most recently needled back in. <br /><br />Something happened to Rand that allowed him to remember his last death. Not his life after death, but his last death. LT was a mad, grief stricken man, but he was not insane like the rest of Hundred Companions, or likely the other male channelers at the time, because Ishamael had healed him. Maybe the taint weakened over time like AS in the AOL thought it might, but retained the capacity to break down the barrier between life and death. New male channelers kept having absolutely insane men in their heads. The kind that killed their whole families, burned cities, had no idea where or who they were, etc. That is, except for Rand. He just has a normally insane person in his head (which may be his saving grace). Perhaps this also explains why some male channelers do not go mad, or do so more gradually. Maybe some other male AS besides LT died sane, or healed. This is a lot of speculation, but I think it makes sense.<br /><br />So what is ta'veren then? What are these reborn HH? I think for the first that ta'veren is simply an massive amplification of chance around a certain thread that allows the Wheel greater leeway in shaping events (ostensibly by choosing possible futures but not by circumventing free will). This is like channeling. I doesn't alter the soul, or require a graft between thread and archetype, or whatever. It just &quot;bends&quot; or positively charges a thread. Remember too that Logain, Nicola, and Siuan see ta'veren as glowing (whether more like Min's auras or a female channeler's halo, I am not sure, but both suggest a single life-thread).<br /><br />Heroes of the Horn? I agree with those who say they needn't ever be ta'veren. In fact, I think they usually are not. They are souls that the wheel has determined could prove useful and are placed in reserve. They are indeed archetypes, and perhaps their predictability or strength of character (whatever you want to call it) is why they are chosen. They are also archetypes because the wheel keeps spinning them out (we have no idea how often most threads are reborn, or if they even all are). The soul is different from the thread and thus &quot;lives&quot; on. IIRC, RJ said that even Balefire doesn't destroy a soul. That it could still be reborn, but that BF does destroy threads back in time. <br /><br />In conclusion, thank you so much for this theory because it has stimulated a fascinating discussion. Keep up the good work.


created: 2009-03-23 15:15:44
subject: <b>hmm interesting but</b>
body:
the whole idea that he is the dragon reborn seems to go against it.  Now I suppose we could say that the characters in the book are wrong in using the word reborn but I can't seem them making such a mistake as that.  We know all the souls in Randland are reborn (so how does population increase I wonder) I can't see the dragon being different.


created: 2009-05-29 15:20:07
subject: <b>Brilliant interpretation...</b>
body:
I truly enjoyed it, and you clearly put some deep thought into that, but I have to disagree with the overall theory.<br /><br />I think the Serpent being wound around the spokes every time we see it is nothing more than something the artist thought looked &quot;cool&quot;. I don't really think there was any intended symbolism.<br /><br />Your explanation of the Serpent representing channeling, as well as the Last Battle, is certainly plausible, and as I said, I liked it. But I don't thik that's what the artist had in mind when he drew it.<br /><br />Hmm. Unless, of course, RJ drew it himself, in which case that may be <i>exactly</i> what he had in mind. I dunno. I'm gonna shut up now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-05-30 18:46:50
subject: <b>infinity</b>
body:
Some where way back in my mind, I seem to remember that the figure 8 on its side is the sigh for infinity.


created: 2009-05-31 00:50:32
subject: <b>interesting...</b>
body:
I like the idea in general but I disagree. I do however think that if anything the snake spanning 3 ages would be the &quot;DRAGON&quot; Lews, Rand etc. He is after all symbolized as a winged snake, which is what Satan was in the Bible, till God punished him for tricking Adam and Eve, at which time he lost his legs and had to crawl about the world on his belly eatting the dust of the earth. And he is also the focal tread woven into these three ages.


created: 2009-06-02 18:36:35
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Good theory in a lot of ways. I think much of it makes sense, and the first posterer is wrong in saying no symbolism was intended. It doesn't matter, or at least my English teacher says so. <br />I do disagree with the statement that the Second Age represents the distant future, more like the Roman Empire. However, I like the concept that the snake touches where channeling is. I'm not sure about the evil part however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I have been called to change the world.&quot;<br />Napoleon Bonaparte</font><p></p>


created: 2009-06-04 07:51:54
subject: <b>symbolism</b>
body:
Nice theory apart from that you mixing up symbolism with reality.<br />I agree the snake is a symbol but I think it's the symbol for people in the wheel and there unability to escape it.<br />So good and evil regardless nobody wil escape the wheel unending and repeating itself.


created: 2009-06-08 08:33:21
subject: <b>waxers right - it's not a figure of eight its the symbol for infinite</b>
body:
Ie ages come and pass forever, there was no beginning or end - infinte.<br /><br />Liked it though, im glad someone is still submitting theories! im brewing one up as well at the moment.


created: 2009-06-08 14:59:36
subject: <b>Self Defence</b>
body:
Napoleon62: &quot;the first posterer is wrong in saying no symbolism was intended&quot;<br /><br />I was only referring to the Great Serpent being wound through the spokes of the Wheel. I don't believe there was any intended symbolism to the mixture of the two. Obviously, there was some huge symbolism in all the artwork, I just don't think the Serpent/Wheel mixture was intended to represent anything. It was just something that DS thought looked cool. Unless, as I said, RJ drew it himself, in which case, Tamyrlin might be right on the money.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-06-18 15:33:23
subject: <b>Finally, a new Theory</b>
body:
Good reasoning, although I don't agree with the last part of the Great Snake breaking the Wheel. And it is very likely that it just was drawn like that, with no symbolism in how many spokes the snake touches.<br />And about breaking the Wheel, the Great Snake is a symbol of time, just like the Wheel. How could time stop time? And I don't think the Great Snake would die of swallowing itself - its endless, like time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-07-06 18:36:56
subject: <b>This Theory...</b>
body:
Makes the most sense out of all the ones I`ve read about the `Winning Stroke`. I like it, and I hope you`re right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-07-07 08:33:12
subject: <b>Exactly...</b>
body:
...the same idea was posted by Llaydwhonn Gaidin back in 2002...and I still agree that this is a very likely way to seal the Bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I evil? Yes I am!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-07-07 12:12:09
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Nice theory, it makes quite a bit of sense.<br /><br />However, the idea of the Dark One breaking free, then eating a beam of balefire and disintegrating is too hilariously awesome to discount, haha.


created: 2009-07-08 18:40:40
subject: <b>interesting idea</b>
body:
i think the DO might even know of this weakness as demandred reported that even opening your self up to saidin ment instant death


created: 2009-07-23 21:19:43
subject: <b>What about Rand?</b>
body:
The only problem with this theory is that it leaves Rand out completely.<br />Is is the one most commonly mentioned in the prophesies, and we have yet to see him try to heal anything. Perhaps he will learn it from Damer (is he still around? I'm on CoS as I re-read the series). <br />Maybe the re-seal of the bore occurs after the last battle, and this theory is only concerned with that...


created: 2009-07-27 06:28:09
subject: <b>Rand's role...</b>
body:
That's true.<br /><br />That made me wonder, though, what Rand's role IS in winning the last battle. Powerful as he is, he's still just one man against someone the Forsaken collectively grovel before. Obviously, he needs some help... and maybe sealing the Bore is one of those things he needs help with. He can still be critical to winning the battle without doing everything himself.<br /><br />(He's already rallied male channellers, and prevented them from all going mad before the last battle, for one thing)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-26 14:48:21
subject: <b>Seems to fit right in with a certain line of pirate movies..</b>
body:
Great Theory!<br /><br />It all makes sence now!<br /><br />Obviously the events after AMoL will mark the beginning of Pirates of the Caribbean 5!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">"Ididn't have much to say to anybody but kept to myself and my books.With my eyes closed, I would touch a familiar book and draw it'sfragrance deep inside me. This was enough to make me happy." -HarukiMurakami- Norwegian Wood</font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-27 03:18:38
subject: <b>All aboard the good ship "Jolly Rogering"</b>
body:
The one thing that really annoys me schmidee is that this has been anobvious but hidden "Easter Egg" that all of us hard core Wotmaniacshave tacitly acknowledged with knowing looks and arched eyebrows andnow you go and tell the world!<br /><br />The first rule of post-Tarmon Gaidon Pirate Club is that we don't write theories about post-Tarmon Gaidon Pirate Club!


