# w_comment

created: 2001-12-11 17:03:24
subject: <b>A vast portrait...</b>
body:
I agree that the Seanchan will inevitably fall into Chaos.  Jordan has done a wonderful job showing all the cracks to the Seanchan armor, however, I do not see them pitted against Rand for long.  Mat will mary the Daughter of the Nine moons, who is with him now and further secure the Seanchan to Rand.  I also believe Rand will secure the Seanchan to him as he has the Atha'an Miere.  In the end it seems inevitable that they all must be united to face the Dark One and his army.  Now that will be a chapter to behold!  Imagine all the powers we know of already, united and using each others strengths as a team.  Can you say &quot;DEVISTATION&quot;? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-28 16:08:31
subject: <b>Yeah I agree.</b>
body:
that Seanchan society is going to go straight down the hole when the truth gets out to them about the sul'dam. Probably  nastily too for a deeply-ingrained social structure doesn't die easily.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 14:52:46
subject: <b>mat and the seanchan</b>
body:
mat is involved with tuon, as a result of this he will no doubt go to seandar and see the empress, who will try to order him about, but it will not work, not even inthe presence of the throne ter'angreal, because of his foxhead medalion, this stops all weaves so the throne will have no effect on him. <br /><br />I wonder what will come of this.


created: 2002-08-17 01:37:14
subject: <b>sul'dam ,demane, a'dem</b>
body:
i agree that the sea chan peaple will be shaken i meen come on all youv ever none being said hey thats not true,well id shake anyone in there right minds.and i agree that its posible that the government seekers are starting to get a bit suspishes of the sul 'dam who whoulnt? and that there are probebly some peaple that are tring to make a civil war<br />but this is something new?no matter how perfect the government their will always be those that will be against it.so its not like there is probebly some big conspericy. but i do think that sea chan is going to be utterly shaken.


created: 2003-02-11 13:53:42
subject: <b>Realistically...</b>
body:
...I think the Seanchan would simply decide they had to *kill* all marath'damane once they've learned The Secret.  There's no way they're going back to the world in which Aes Sedai threw around their power and manipulated everyone and used their Power for nefarious means and evil deeds.  Frankly, I don't blame them for wanting to avoid that.  Look at the way the snooty man-hating Aes Sedai of Randland manipulate people, and they at least have the Oaths.  <br /><br />Sending an Oath Rod over to Seanchan and binding the marath'damane that way *might* be an option.  Without sul'dam to control the damane anymore, they could instead use an Oath Rod to bind all channelers to obey a certain class of people.  This would prevent the channelers from wielding power, and allow for a way to control them without having to kill them all.  And as an added bonus, any attempted rebellion using marath'damane (as apparently occurs from time to time) would now require either an Oath Rod in the possession of the rebelling general or a member of the elite class empowered to command them.<br /><br />I suspect this would be more likely, given the Seanchan's history and worldview, than anything leading towards &quot;acceptance&quot; of Aes Sedai meddling and manipulation.


created: 2003-04-07 11:39:06
subject: <b>Decline and Fall of the Seanchan Empire</b>
body:
Light! The entire Seanchan Empire would shatter! Constantly, we are told that rebellions still occur in Seanchan, some of which are serious. For examples, Kennar Miraj remembered how he rushed to Seandar to warn of a rebel army marching on the capital; 'The Far Snows' had the Seanchan saying that the province where Rand and Aviendha had their night stand was in a state of insurrection; Assid Bakuun told us of the suppressed revolt on Marendalar where thousands were killed and thousands more were enslaved.<br /><br />Let's not forget the Guide's direct information:<br />&quot;There is no doubt that the current power of the Imperial family over an entire continent is directly linked to their subjugation and control of all Seanchan Aes Sedai.&quot;<br /><br />With all sul'dam being marath'damane and removed from Seanchan society, what can maintain the Empress' reign over Seanchan? The entire Empire would slip out of her control as logistics and communications break down and full-blown rebellions fracture the Empire. This meant no more people being sent to the Westlands as part of the Corenne. Only an Oath Rod and a Dragon Reborn could save the Crystal Throne. Perhaps this is linked to the prophecy that Rand &quot;will bind the Nine Moons to himself.&quot;<br /><br />CoT proves it: Tuon CAN channel. This means the Daughter of the flaming Nine Moons is a bloody marath'damane--a HUGE blow to the Imperial family itself! As far as I could make out, only one other direct heir is left beside Tuon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 23:23:12
subject: <b>the Empire</b>
body:
High ranking people in the empire are dark friends, so the current empress might be in trouble.  When Tuon becomes empress, and the secret of sul'dam becomes known, would it happen that suddenly the empire's army just got alot bigger? The sul'dam always talk about the much higher numbers of sul'dam than damane, so there would be a huge number of (untrained) channelers at the disposal of the empire, (and you can always hang an a'dam over their head to ensure obedience to the empress).  That might be enough to stave off a rebellion.


created: 2001-07-10 11:19:18
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I like this theory, it makes alot of sense.  I still want to see someone kick the crap outta Masema, and hope it happens in book 10.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-10 17:29:28
subject: <b>Nice one there.</b>
body:
This is probably the best one on what Cadsuane will teach the Ashaman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 17:42:55
subject: <b>masema</b>
body:
I like this theory.  I think instead of someone kicking the crap out of masema, it would be better if he learns from Rand that he disapproves of everything masema has done.  Then someone can kick the crap out of him to keep kilblondeel happy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-10 18:51:51
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
Yes making Rand laugh and cry WOULD affect his followers. They would no longer be killing machines and more like Logain. Logain is the future of the Ashaman. Plus when Rand gets back to the Tower he will come back with 3 Ashaman bonded to Aes Sedai...willingly. A new era of freindship between the two. Perhaps even the Ashaman can help to regain the Tower without bloodshed. Taim is the bloody one, once he is out of the way and Rand and Logain take over with their newfound sensitivity the whole face of the Black Tower will change.......I feel a long theory coming on!<br /><br />Excellent idea on the motives!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 19:20:34
subject: <b>Just got to be one more comment</b>
body:
on this board to say that this is an excellent theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 23:57:27
subject: <b>He's a channeler</b>
body:
I've wondered whether Masema is a wilder like Nynaeve and learned some rough control from natural causes and the taint has driven him to madness.  He seems loony enough.<br /><br />In any case I think Masema will turn on Rand and call him an imposter or something.  I have learned from personal experience that most fanatics refuse to accept that they could have been wrong and show emotional cowardice by hiding behind the most ridiculous excuses to justify past actions.


created: 2001-07-12 10:03:11
subject: <b>He's a channeler?</b>
body:
That would certainly be an interesting twist...but I doubt that.  I think Masema is just fanatic.  He was weird even when he was normal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 16:44:31
subject: <b>Good, except...</b>
body:
..I don't think Rand has tolearn to laugh and cry so that his followers will. In fact, I think the laugh and cry thing is seperate from what Cadsuane has to teach the Ashaman. I think Rand has to learn to laugh and cry so that he will stop being this hard guy who will do whatever he has to for victory. As Cadsuane has said if that is the case then victory at the Last Battle may not be much better than defeat. Why? Well, considering that huge amounts of different powers will be being used, the world is going to be broken. However, if Rand doesn't care what happens as long as he wins, he won't try and prevent people being killed, he'll just concentrate all his force on attacks. So he needs to learn to laugh and cry so that he will not only defeat the DO but also save as much of the world as possible.


created: 2001-08-29 12:58:01
subject: <b>Another Possibility</b>
body:
Cadsuane will teach Rand, and all the other male channelers, HUMILITY. Rand is so arrogant in being the Dragon Reborn and the others are so proud of their new power and status that they have all forgotten what they are. All channelers, male and female, are Aes Sedai. Servants of all. Although Rand has some justification for his overbearing nature, even the people who know he is important want to use him for their own purposes, he must learn that the responsibility of all channelers is to HELP humankind. The conquering and fighting may need to continue for a little longer, but in the end the [asha'man(sp?)-defenders] and the {Aes Aedai- servants] will have to realize that they shouldn't be placing themselves above everyone because they can channel, but using their ability to make the world a safer, better place to live.<br /><br />Just my two cents worth......


created: 2002-12-21 11:51:06
subject: <b>Male Humility!?!?!?!?!?!?</b>
body:
I doen't think thats right because its the females in WoT that are the arrogant ones.  Sure Rand needs to be taught humility because if he decides to make people do what he wants by force, how is he any different from the DO or Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lick your wounds later, for they will still be there,<br />when our enemies are dead Little Brother.<br />                                      -Nighteyes<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> First among the Wolven<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Clawed Blade</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-17 17:26:10
subject: <b>An excellent theory</b>
body:
with your comparison with Mordeth and Aridhol.  As Cadsuane said, his victory would not be much better than defeat.<br /><br />How can anyone suggest the AS are more arrogant than Rand. Even from his own POV in WH, he acknowledged that he only made the AS swear oath to him to show how powerful {read great} he is.<br /><br />As far as Egwene, she herself, in a POV, after meeting with Aiel WOs, said they were doing what was good for themselves and the AS were doing what was good for themselves, but Egwene was doing what was good for Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-19 14:57:29
subject: <b>What Is Rand turing into</b>
body:
Evil= All Consuming Darkness=Shadar Hafan<br />Evil= All Corrupting Taint=Padan Mordeth<br />Good= All Burning Flame=Rand al'Thor<br />Good= All Smothering Weight=Lewis Therin Telamon<br /><br />Robert likes his ideas in neat orderly lines, he has two types of darkness and two types of goodness. If any of them wins, the world ends. Either Shadar Hafan will consume it all in darkness, Padan Mordeth will corrupt it into a putrid form of its former self, Rand will burn it to cinders trying to save it, I am not sure who the all smothering weight is that wants things back the way they were in the age of legends, maybe Lewis Therin Telamon, assuming that Mashadar and the Dark One are two sides of the same coin like Saidin and Sadar. Rand and Lewis are both the sides of good, one wishing to burn darkness away, the other wishing for a return to innocence of the age of legends.


created: 2009-03-08 19:14:37
subject: <b>Who knows because I dont.</b>
body:
The consept of infectious emotions /insanity sounds good  but for some reason I think that there has to be some thing more to the HA HA ,Boo Hoo thing although I dont Know what it is .I get on this site every day for hours and read thearies and latly they all seem the same.Lets hope RJ give us a good suprise.RIP RJ,we love you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


created: 2001-07-12 12:57:15
subject: <b>ME ME ME</b>
body:
Mwhahahaha....I am the healer, I am the healer. hahahaha<br /><br />sorry, just had to do that.<br /><br /><br /><br />Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 13:30:41
subject: <b>I believe that you are correct.</b>
body:
Damer Flinn healed Irgain (he is bonded to Corele).  From what Corele said it was a complete healing like what Nynaeve did to Logain.  Given that I believe that it takes a man to heal a woman completely, and a woman to heal a man completely.<br /><br />Jim Rose


created: 2001-07-12 16:10:57
subject: <b>I just have one thing to say</b>
body:
Duh.  I took that as a given from the moment we learned that Nynaeve wasn't able to Heal Siuan and Leane completely, yet she <i>was</i> able to Heal Logain completely.  Flinn's Healing of women only clinched that in my mind.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 17:24:46
subject: <b>full strength</b>
body:
even if going by opposite sexes doesn't heal it completely, if Nynaeve and Flinn combined their techniques (like Nyn would do hers then Flinn would do his)it would probably fix the problem completely.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-12 18:22:36
subject: <b>I have an alternate theory.....</b>
body:
Nyneave used Fire and Spirit to Heal Logain and the others. I think that he was healed to full strength because Fire is one of the predominantly male powers. I predict that if he was healed with Earth it would work just as well.<br /><br />Heal Siane and Leane with Water or Air and they should be full strength too. <br /><br />The Spirit is universal and acts like:<br /><br />1. Solder- The Fire/Air/Earth/Water is stuck into place by the Spirit. Sort of like fusing two wires together with solder.<br /><br />2. A Catalyst- The spirit makes the Fire/Air/Earth/Water 'react' and bonds are fomred between the two ends of the gap<br /><br />Possibly not the clearest explanation, but I see it as logical.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 19:31:36
subject: <b>This is already on the theory post</b>
body:
And the theory is right.  The above theory is okay, but I believe the Fire etc. was absolutely integral to the healing.  Basically, his theory on how the One Power works could be complementary to my theory (hopefully being posted soon), but it is unnecessary, and I'm pretty sure my theory on the power is correct.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 20:59:49
subject: <b>Healing stilling, and healing the taint</b>
body:
Mebbe its something like when Rand healed the taint.  He decided that a conduit of the male half would not be as effective in moving the power as a with the female half.  If I remember correctly, he even thought that a condiut of the same source as was being cleansed would shatter.  Perhaps you need the opposite side to channel it properly?  Don't they work against eachother in a sense?  I dunno...it just seems connected to me<br />


created: 2001-07-13 12:53:18
subject: <b>will some enlighten me</b>
body:
sorry, where does damer heal a woman<br />i don't remember that happening<br />i know it did but will sum1 tell me the pages where it was so i can re-read that section?<br />thanls<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 15:49:24
subject: <b>Possible</b>
body:
This is possible but I believe the more likely cause would be the elements involved. As I recall Nynaeve healed logain with fire and earth mainly, these are the main elements of the male channeler. She applied the SAME technique to Siuan and Leane. Had she used air and water on the women, their dominant areas, I believe they would have the same strength as before.<br />


created: 2001-07-13 18:26:28
subject: <b>Fire and Earth Vs. Air and Water</b>
body:
But if it took Air and Water, than stilling would have been fixed long ago.  All the healing weaves use predominately Air and Water, and the thing that was so unusual about the weave is that it requires Earth and Fire.  The actual 'shape', I guess you could say, was not so important as the fact that she fit Earth and Fire in there.


created: 2001-07-13 19:48:19
subject: <b>How Nyneave used the Powers</b>
body:
She used all five powers to delve around and find the gap THEN she filled it with Spirit and Fire. I say if she used Spirit and Air to fill the gap on Suian or Leane they would have had full strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 04:46:39
subject: <b>agrees with your_master</b>
body:
while fire is predominantly male, there is nothing special about men and fire... not all men are stong in fire, and some women are stong in fire (and/ or earth). Fire is also involved in Nyneave's new Healing that does not requier the strength of the injured, as opposed to traditional techniques which only use wind, water and spirit.


created: 2001-07-16 17:16:45
subject: <b>We just dont know.</b>
body:
There are three competing theories as to why Siuan and Leane did not regain full strength while Logain and the two AS who Damer Flynn healed regained there full strength.  The available evidence neither excludes nor supports any one of the theories.<br /><br />The most widely believed, and perhaps the simplest, theory is that it takes a channeler of the opposite sex to heal severing fully.<br /><br />The second theory is that the weaves themselves must be different.  Nynaeve stubled upon a weave that heals Saidin and Flynn the same with Saidar.  One might argue that there is only a 25% chance of both of them stubling upon the weave for the opposite power.  On the other hand, if Nynaeve and Damer accidentally discovered something different we would find a different pattern that works.<br /><br />The third theory is which weaves and who weaves them is not as important as how the victim was severed.   This theory supposes that there are different levels of severing.  Saidar holders are severed more completely by Saidar holders.  The same is true for Saidin holders.  The women that Damer healed were severed by Rand.  Because he can't fully sense the women (because he doesn't hold Saidar) he is unable to Sever them as well as what an AS could.<br /><br />The available evidence doesn't even hint at which one of these theories is correct. <br /><br />WE NEED MORE EVIDENCE before deciding<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 02:57:57
subject: <b>Maybe It's in the Flows</b>
body:
OK, just a quick thing to point out. We know Nynaeve used Fire and Earth to heal Logain, Siuane, and Leanne. What flows did Flinn use?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> By the typo queen, Anendosora <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-08 12:02:34
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
I don't think that the way a person was stilled has anything to do with it.  Picture it as a wire in their head (so its a cheesy analogy) and you sever it.  When you sever a wire, it is severed, no matter how you look at it.


created: 2001-10-20 17:47:32
subject: <b>Healing and strength restoration</b>
body:
If I'm not very much mistaken, severing is done by spirit, which should be independent from Saidar or Saidin as to its shaping. Also, male and female channelers are supposed to be unable to do certain things in one way, like putting out a fire. For those of worse memory, men can pull the heat out of fire and sorta disperse it into something that can handle it, like the earth, whileas women have to use water or air to put it out; were they to use the male way, they'd set aflame. So my theory is that Nynaeve can't seal the gap with Air/Water, because that's not the way women can make the weave. And another thing, could it be possible that the power is restored to its original by a channeler of the proper gender? According to any theories, this should be entirely possible, either by completion of the bond or by recreating it altogether.


created: 2001-11-02 00:10:45
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
I realise I'm pulling this theory up from the bottom, but I'm new to wotmania, and am reading through any of the theories that 'tickle my fancy'. <br /><br />Anyway, my thought was, what would happen if Siuan and Leane were to be stilled again and then fully Healed by Flinn? Would they return to their original strength or the strength that they had after being Healed by Nynaeve?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><b>-Tethys-</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 21:47:21
subject: <b>Another Thought</b>
body:
I had an interesting thought, what if the strength when they were Healed was based on the strentgh of the power chanaled by the healer.  Take the wire example.  If someone used a thicker (or thinner) wire could they control the strength of the channeler?  Just some food for thought


created: 2002-02-02 09:03:33
subject: <b>Takes one side to balance the other side out</b>
body:
Maybe it takes saidin to heal saidar and so forth. Saidar may naturally repel any attempts to heal itself, as Rand suspects with saidin when he cleans it, and needs the opposite to bring it together. Also, we never saw the healing from both perspectives at the same time. Maybe Nynaeve's weaves form saidin if it's available, as in Logian, and together the two are complete.<br /><br />On the other hand, referring to the theory that ability is based on how much someone believes that they can do something, maybe Suian and Leane didn't really believe that Nynaeve's healing would work and thus limited themselves. Logian wasn't expecting anything and it worked properly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 16:30:47
subject: <b>Discontinued...</b>
body:
I've officially killed this theory in my head. I've posted a new, more interesting, and more plausible one...


created: 2002-06-12 01:35:17
subject: <b>Could Be Due To Same Weave</b>
body:
I am very interested in what happens when a woman is healed by an Ashaman.  However, could the difference in strength be due to the fact the Nyn used the same weave for Saidar and Saidan?  They are different from one another.  My theory is that if the original weave is altered to accomodate Saidar, female channelers would come back to full strength.


created: 2002-06-26 21:42:39
subject: <b>A search for the simple</b>
body:
I too have posted a theory on Healing the Stilled, hopefully to be released soon. But even after that I wonder if Healing those that are Stilled could just be one of those things men were better at then women. I believe &quot;Marigan&quot; mentions auch areas, but I'm not sure.


created: 2002-08-29 22:35:26
subject: <b>one more..</b>
body:
one more slight diference between logain and siuan, is the time diference between they were stilled, perhaps siuan hasnt reached her full potential again or something bizzare ;-p<br /><br />maybe its something to do with how soon she was healed from stilled,, just a thought..


created: 2002-11-08 04:21:02
subject: <b>The quote</b>
body:
The Asha'man who discovered Healing is Damer Flinn (it's a shame you forget his name).<br />(WH Chap 13:Wonderful news) Corele: &quot;And, well, the fact of it is, he (Damer Flinn) 's gone and Healed Irgain. Cadsuane, it's as she's never been...&quot;. Corele is a Yellow, she'd say if Irgain haven't regain her full strenght.<br />Second mistake i've read from StoneDogAiel: Corele is the one who bonded Damer Flinn, not Irgain nor Sashail or Ronaille (they all are stilled Aes Sedai Healed by Damer Flinn)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />  &lt;== Is she Min? I always thought she has brown eyes<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-18 10:43:29
subject: <b>How to regain full strenght</b>
body:
Well what is Leane and Siuan are stilled again and then healed by a male channeler? If we compare the stilling with cuting a wire it make sense. This is a wild guess of course but it has some sence in it. Let's see with what will Jordan come up. I think that both of the women will regain their streinght at some point and why not in this way. It will be quite dramatical. Imagine the fear to be cut from the One power again if only for a short time...<br /><br />What do you think?


created: 2004-12-04 00:11:47
subject: <b>My own thoughts on it.</b>
body:
When somebody heals Severing (stilling/gentling/burning out), they are bridging a gap that was created within the mind of the victim.  If you think about it, it makes sense that this bridge along which the male half travels would have to be constructed of the female half, and visa versa.<br /><br />If the bridge for the female half of the source is made of the same material, it's weaker.<br /><br />As for the elements being used in the healing-- each time we've seen Severing Healed, the Healer has used all five powers.  I don't have the books with me to give a direct quote, but Nyn wove &quot;all five elements of healing&quot; when she did the deed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Behold, my loyal armies...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-03 19:42:12
subject: <b>Perhaps it reverts you back to your initial strength.</b>
body:
Logain hadn't been channeling for long and was already powerful.  Siuan and Leane had had to channel for years to reach their strength.  They were cut off from the power, so they revert to their original strength, so an aes sedai who's power hadn't grown much wouldn't notice, perhaps Damer healed someone who had weak channeling initially, or had little time before they reached their peak, and male channelers seem to lack the &quot;waiting period&quot; for thei power to reach it's peak.


created: 2006-05-01 19:58:22
subject: <b>I completely disagree with myself</b>
body:
Years later, I now believe that it has to do with the &quot;slipperiness&quot; of the weaves. Remember when Elaine was unweaving that gateway? Mighty slippery--but it was made of Saidar. I believe that Saidin is easier to grasp with Saidar--except that you're working blind.<br /><br />In the original passage where Nynaeve heals Logain, she's just sort of groping around where she feels a hole and then, all of a sudden, she realises she has a grip on it and closes it. Kind of like stitching a wound--still cuts you, separates two bits of you. In order for that wound to heal (let's forget about festering for now), you have to pull it close together again--the best way to do that is with stitches. After a few years, the wound's tensile strength will be back to normal.<br /><br />So why are Siuan and Leane weaker? Nynaeve was working Saidar-on-Saidar--and that's slippery. She grabbed as much as she could in one go and stitched it up, but because it was so hard to grab in the first place, she couldn't get it all. In theory, if Siuan and Leane are stilled again, an Asha'man should be able to Heal them with ease--or Nynaeve could herself, just with a lot more difficulty.<br /><br />The Male/Female thing is just too simple for my taste. I posted a very long theory outlining this new view years ago (complete with textual evidence and so on), but it never got posted for some reason. Maybe I never actually hit &quot;submit&quot;. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-11-08 13:30:27
subject: <b>Siuan, Leane and Logain</b>
body:
Jordan stated saidar to heal saidan and vice-versa.<br /><br />However, I wonder if Siuan and Leane were re-stilled and healed by an A'shaman would they regain their old strength, or just come back at their present strength?  Or, if they were to get healing by an A'shaman now would they revert to their Old Strength again?<br /><br />I'd like to see Siuan back at Old Strength and then beat the crap outta Romanda, Lelaine and everyone else who gave her such a bad way to go!


created: 2001-07-12 16:25:47
subject: <b>Learn how to proofread, PLEASE!</b>
body:
People's, not peoples.  Asha'man, not Asha'Man.  Their heads, not their head.  Everyone's, not everyones.  Warder is always capitalized.  Catching, not catcing.  Their and there don't mean the same thing.  An Aes Sedai, not a Aes Sedai.  Likely, not likly.  Compelling, not compeling.  Compel is always capitalized when the Power is being used to do it.<br /><br />I won't go on.  Please proofread your theories before you post them.  It makes it that much harder to comprehend when half the words are spelled wrong and the rest don't flow together well.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 18:11:39
subject: <b>Very interesting theory</b>
body:
Although I always have seen Ashaman bonding as a kind of Compulsion, not a Warder bond like the Aes Sedai use. Logain tells Toviene not to do something and she physically cant. We havent seen this so far as Warders ae concerned. This could be just the difference between saidar and saidin.<br /><br />But it basically boils down to everything you said, its really a contest of wills....if rather more complicated<br /><br />And this would also explain why Verin's compulsion doesnt work well on men very neatly. <br /><br />What I would suggest is that:<br /><br />For Compulsion<br />Females against females does work<br />Females against males doesnt work<br />Males against females does work (How I see Ashaman bonding)<br />Males against males doesnt work?<br /><br />To complete the pattern the last should be true. This would explain Rahvin replacing nearly the whole Andor Guard. He cant use compulsion on them.<br /><br />For Bonding<br />Females against females doesnt work<br />Females against males does work<br /><br />Completeing the pattern<br />Males against males doesnt work<br />Males against females does work<br /><br />Now as far as I see it male channelers havent invented bonding as we know it yet, just Compulsion. As your pattern suggests this is all to do with a contest of wills.<br /><br />So after all I have a couple of interesting ideas:<br /><br />1. Does the 13 Myrdraal 13 Black Ajah use Compulsion or Bonding and does it depend on the sex of the subject? <br /><br />2. How does an adam work and can we explain, using these theories, why we get all those reactions from channelers of both sex? And which do the adam for either sex use? Could we devise one that would work on everyone without the spasms?<br /><br />I would like to write a long theory on this....It seems very interesting<br /><br />Excellent and intriguing piece of work! You've got me hooked!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 18:43:05
subject: <b>My take on it</b>
body:
Male Warders of female Chanellers can be compelled.  Lan being compelled by Moiraine to seek out Myrelle after her death is one example.  Myrelle compelled Lan to come to her as well.  One of the BA wasn't worried about her Warders who wasn't a DF as well.  She can compel them.  Elayne has never tried to compel Birgitte using the bond because she doesn't know it is possible.  (She is remarkably ignorant about the Warder bond.)  Yet we know that Elayne knows compulsion but hasn't used it on her. (Moggy taught her.)<br /><br />The question is can a female AS compell a male chaneller that she has bonded?  We know that Allana could not compel Rand in her one try.  This seems at first to be strong evidence AS can't compel male chanellers.  On the other hand, Rand was holding the OP at the time.  Saamuel seems to think this gave him some protection from compulsion from Graendel.  Maybe a person holding Saidin is immune to compulsion effects.  Other evidence is Rand being somewhat immune to a Dragkhar charm.  (Saidar holders don't gain this immunity (Moiraine with Dragkhar and Elayne and Nynaeve with Moggy).  On the other hand, maybe they get immunity to ta'veren effects.  Egwene managed to thwart a ta'veren effect of Rand by embrasing Saidar.)<br /><br />Toveine can feel Logain which is indicative of something more than compulsion.  I suspect this means that the Saidin warder bond is very similar to the Saidar bond.  The main difference is that Logain is using the compelling ability of the bond whereas we haven't seen many AS use that ability.  The AS DO have that ability, it is just that none of the female bond holders that we are aware of are willing to use it. <br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 19:57:16
subject: <b>super bond</b>
body:
I've brought this a couple of times, but what would happen if an Asha'man, bonded an Aes sedai, and then the Aes sedai turned around and bonded him, would there be a superbond?<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-12 19:57:25
subject: <b>About the above thoughts and some other stuff</b>
body:
I think that Rand wasn't affected by the Draghkar because he was in the void. The girls don't use the void, they become calm but not emotionless. <br /><br />Concerning the actual theory, I think that what the Asha'man do is somewhat different when they bond others to gain that level of control over the bondee.<br /><br />This comment might be wrong(I can't remember exactly what I read). One of the previous comments stated that maybe women can't compel men(if you were talking about channelers disregard this) but Graendal has compelled both men and women.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 20:32:08
subject: <b>I agree with the theory...</b>
body:
And must defend the theorist from Kaiser Karl.  Not everybody is from an English-speaking country, and even within The English speaking fold, there are variations in grammar (in certain places in certain situations, peoples IS the correct term).<br /><br />Now, assuming the writer is from Canada/U.S./U.K./Australia, I agree (although I don't know about Australian grammar variances, I assume they still use the Queen's English down under, even if they have no real use for the Queen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 20:36:31
subject: <b>Oh, and the superbond:</b>
body:
I expect it would be circular.  The male would receive warder benefits, the female any as-yet-unknown advantage of BT bonding.  They would share each other's thoughts to a degree similar to but greater than either bond, I expect the psionic link would be like linking with the power.  Either the male would be able to compel the female...*I know what you Asha'man are thinking now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />*...or whichever was more powerful gets compulsion, or nobody can compel anybody because of the double-bond feedback loop.<br /><br />*Goes to bond an Aes Sedai*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 21:00:14
subject: <b>About Greandal</b>
body:
Remember that she is possibly the most skilled at Compulsion that ever lived...it shouldnt be a problem. Plus we dont know if she uses different techniques on males and females. Does anyone have any ideas if her male and female subjects react any differently. Maybe the males live to serve her (Magnified type of Bonding), whereas the females do as she says (Compulsion). Anyway she is way more skilled than that....I would say that she can Compel just about anyone. Yet male subjects would need a stronger dose?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 22:36:30
subject: <b>ta'veren is the difference</b>
body:
the main problem with your theory is that Alanna cant control Rand because he is ta'veren.  Bridget is conected to the wheel and is not a normal type of person.  the ashamen they didnt learn the towers bonding they made there own weave.  i do agree that a woman/woman bonding might be different then woman/male though.


created: 2001-07-13 05:32:23
subject: <b>IT</b>
body:
We have know how women can control warders using the bond ever since Lan came apon his new Aei Sedai in ethier LOC or ACOS and she ordered him of his hourse and he just sat there so she describes having to reach out and touch the bond then having to ask him to do it again to which he complied!!!!that is the only level we know of amoung Aei Sedai!!!<br /><br /> But in POD when we have the scene of logain bonding the red sister it is descirbed as a vase vibrating until it shatters.After it is complete logain comments something like &quot;I could of done without that extra bit,but then your hardly a wife are you!!&quot; then he goes on to order her without doing anything special with the power that we are informed of and she has to abide by those rules.The two levels are:<br /><br />Level 1:Normal warder bond,WIfe bond among the men( before the vase shatters)<br />Level 2:Asha men to Aei Sedai completed control with out having to do anything special(Aei Sedai don't know how to do it)<br /><br />IS this possible????


created: 2001-07-13 12:19:51
subject: <b>Some Problems with your examples</b>
body:
If you remember correctly Morraine hints to Lan in TGH that the bond they have could be used more as a compulsion.  Most importantly your examples are flawed.  Rand stop Alanna from finishing the bonding, he shielded her before she was able to finish the weave.  Verin mentions this while talking to Alanna.  Also Elaine bonded Brigite using weaves that she had seen from a distance while hiding and watching other bond, so she may not have done it correctly.  I always thought that the bonding had a compulsion linked to it, but that most Warders are willing subjects so it is not needed


created: 2001-07-14 04:50:14
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The Ashaman bond they have with their wives is very similar to the Aes Sedai bond. The one they use on Aes Sedai is modified to compel obedience - this is from the WH glossary.<br /><br />That Alanna can't compell rand is a separate issue, most probably explained because he is a channeler.<br /><br />So if they thought about it the Aes Sedai could come up with a bond that could compel Asha'man, IMO.


created: 2001-07-16 02:00:39
subject: <b>here I go apologizing again.</b>
body:
Make sure you read the Title.  For those of you who were so unfortunately disturbed by typos and such.  I sometimes type things and see absolutely nothing wrong with them when I read them through again.  Add to that that I do not have Internet access at my home and a time limit on how long I can stay in a place that is not my home and you get the mistakes that I made.  (I also blame this in part on the automatic spell checker that doesn't allow you to fix your own words and changes them sometimes before you even notice they were wrong.)<br />But anyway thank you for you advice and I will try to be more careful I only wish that Kaiser Karl had said something about the theory.<br /><br />But anyhow my first comment will be on the word compel.  I did not use a capital letter becasue I was not talking about Compulsion that Graendael uses(I'm pretty sure that will work on anyone(who isn't protecting themselves with the Power).  I was talking about the power of the bond to control the bondee.  Next I allow for the possibility that Rand being ta'veren is the source of Allana's difficulty compeling him And I have no proof one way or the other except if it were true it would mess up my theory now wouldn't it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. Also Im pretty sure Alanna had already bonded him before he sheilded her(I'll read it over but I am pretty sure she did The Leaf) and that being true even if her first attempt had been deflected by him holding the Power she is Aes Sedai and how many of you can name even one who wouldn't have at least tried more than once, I don't think she can compel him channeling or not channeling.<br /><br />Jackforest69 I guess I'll have to go read that part over and I'll think about it but I do remember that it was from Toveines(Im almost positive i didn't spell that right) point of view and she can't feel Logain channeling and so how can we know if he channeled or not.  We do know that Asha'man use the Power much more freely than Aes Sedai do so it would not make me surprised if instead of asking simply he would just compel her, especially since she is a prisoner.  But anyway I'll be reconsidering several thing thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 04:34:25
subject: <b>About Elayne...</b>
body:
From my understanding, Elayne never says she tried to Compel Birgette to do anything. She complained because Birgette didn't obey her like most Warders. I think we'd have gotten something from her POV if she had tried to Compel Brigette. And it's made pretty clear throughout the books that Compelling a Warder isn't something that's done often. I think it was in the Great Hunt (but I could be waaay off) where Lan gets upset with Moiraine about her Compelling him or soemthing. <br /><br />*nodnod* Well, I'd have researched this a little more, but it's too late- er, too early in the morning for me to dig out the books.


created: 2001-07-20 16:42:48
subject: <b>Elayne is remarkably ignorant about the Warder Bond</b>
body:
Elayne doesn't know that you can compel a warder by using the bond.  That being said even if she did find out that it is possible to use the bond in that way, I don't think she will use it.  She already knows Compulsion, but has never even thought about using it.  (Moggy taught Elayne and Nynaeve Compulsion.  <br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 01:15:25
subject: <b>Male female balance.</b>
body:
Men are better at some things than women, women are better at others, RJ canon. Sometimes it turns out that the way they do things is just different. Anyhow, i think when a woman bonds a male who cannot channel she can use the bond to compel(l?) him, but if the male can channel she can't. When a male bonds a female channeler, he can compel(l?) her if he chooses. Chalk it up to male/female power differences. here's a neat thought, maybe when a male bonds a female non-channeler he cannot compel(l?) her, like the Asha'man's wives.<br /><br />none of that sounds as convincing as it would if i explained it verbally. usually it's the opposite with me.


created: 2001-10-06 00:33:41
subject: <b>You forget something</b>
body:
If a man/woman holds saidin/saidar he can not be controled by the compulsion. This was said by Graendal. Acording to this you can not compare the power of men`s or wimen`s bond.Becouse when Alana was trying to control Rand, after she bonded him, he was holding saidin(may be, I`m not sure, but he shielded Alanna and Verin at the same time).


created: 2001-10-06 19:14:21
subject: <b>and let us look at post 13</b>
body:
harry tod and that was the point I was making Andrewgrose <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 20:57:33
subject: <b>about Compulsion</b>
body:
Verin's compulsion was peiced togeather from several tidbits so when your're building from scraps it may be harder to fill in all the peices.  Verin herself said that the original girls had it working fine on their fathers.  I don't know why I forgot to mention this before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 16:07:42
subject: <b>Clarity?</b>
body:
I'm new at this and a lot of what I have to say has already been said.  (Sorry to everybody who's points I stole without adknowlegdement but I couldn't remember your names.)  I would just like to try and make things a little clearer.<br /><br />1.  Compulsion and Bonding are two totally different things.<br /><br />2.  Compulsion is using OP to make somebody do what you want them to do.  It has varying degrees of strenght and it does not create a shared headspace.<br /><br />3.  Compulsion should work equally as well on both men and women.  Graendel is proof of that and she does not use bonding.  She can't feel anyone else in her head.  Mordin also said that bonding is something that was devolped after the breaking of the world.<br /><br />4.  Verin is not proof that Compulsion doesn't work equally as well on men or women.  It has been forbidden to study Compulsion since the breaking of the world, and she has only picked up little bits and pieces of how to do it.  I imagin if she studied under Graendel she could learn how to do what ever she wanted.<br /><br />5.  Bonding means sharing a head space.  The glossary said that warders gain the ability to &quot;go long periods of time without food,water,rest... quick healing...to sense the taint of the DO...&quot;  I would assume that this applies to anyone who is bonded.<br /><br />6.  WH's glossary also said that the Asha'man modify the bond to compel obedience.  I think this is very simalar to what the oath rod does, which might be why they didn't bond way back when.  <br /><br />7.  In terms of a normal bond, I don't think channelling or gender affects it at all.  The 3 Asha'man bonded by Aes Sedai appear to have a normal bond.  I also think that Birgette and Elayne do as well.<br /><br />  This is where I am going to descend into imagnery land.  I don't think that Aes Sedai can compel their warders at all.  Alanna's line about trying to compel Rand is something I can only explain by saying that Aes Sedai beleive they can compel their warders just because their warders usually listen to them. <br />  I'll start with the prohibition against bonding someone without asking them.  I don't think thats because of compulsion.  One, it's just unethical to put yourself into somebodys head without asking them.  Two, warders do die (normally)when their AS die, which is something they should have a choice about.  Three,  I think they ask them before hand to help guarantee that the warders will be obedient.<br />  In NS when Moraine asks Lan to be her warder he basically swears obedience to her wishes.  I would assume most warders do this, espically with the awe most AS are held in.  <br />  The mind bond itself should promote obedince.  In most POV scenes the warder/AS can tel/feel what the other is thinking.  If you were a warder,  you could feel that the other person had made up their mind, you were sworn to protect, and you didn't want them to die you would end up doing whatever you were told to with out the need for compulsion. <br />  The reference to Myrelle touching Lans bond doesn't have to have anything to do with compulsion.  She could just be letting him feel her emotions more strongly by concentrating on the bond.  <br />  This would explain Rand and Birgette.  Neither of them were asked or wanted to be bonded.  Therefore they didn't swear obedience.  So they don't have to do what they are told.  On the other side of that they have a normal bond in that they both share a head space, and they wouldn't intentionally do anything to hurt their AS.  Birgette also obeys Elayne when she knows she can't change Elayne's mind.  I think they both just have normal bonds.  <br />  Eleys isn't as easy to explain.  He probably did swear obedience to his AS.  The only explanation I can come up with is that when he found out he was a wolfbrother he thought it was best for him and his AS to leave.  If he was killed it would hurt his AS, so maybe her well being came out over top of his obedience.<br />  My last reason is the Black Ajah.  If they could compel their warders they proabably would.  They can't.  In WH two of the BA talk about having to mask the bond so the warders can find them.  I might be wrong on this but I think I can remember that one warder wanted to kill his AS for being Black.<br />   My brains tired now and I'm sure I've missed stuff or maybe I had no new ideas to begin with.


created: 2004-05-19 16:07:56
subject: <b>Don't think so..</b>
body:
no, I completely disagree- it's because the asha'man (asha 'men?) are using compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Make your choice, Adventerous Stranger;<br /><br />strike the bell and bide the danger;<br /><br />or wonder, 'til it drives you mad;<br /><br />what would have happened if you had.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 16:55:31
subject: <b>Read the above, and more</b>
body:
Although it is said differently in different texts, sometimes it is called the Holy Grail was called the Sangreal, just like that.  Sa'angreal is just an a and an apostrophe.  But I don't think that's so much relevant as it is just a cool thing.<br /><br />I don't think (sa')angreal are ter'angreal.  In theory, if they were, then what you say could happen, and despite the admin's comment they probably could when you consider the varying strengths of sa'angreal and angreal.  But we haven't seen them, and I don't think we will.  An angreal is more than just a buffer, the buffer is in fact in place to keep from overusing the angreal, not from burning yourself out (Usually, overusing an angreal would burn somebody out.  It could also, however, melt a linking ter'angreal perhaps).<br /><br />On the point of the linking ter'angreal, don't you think that if it could, it would not only link to the super-sa'angreal source but also amplify it?  Arguably, perhaps it does that, we haven't seen a comparison, but it seems the linking ter'angreal were ONLY linking ter'angreal where under your theory they could have been one last magnifying glass before the channeller.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 02:06:47
subject: <b>Ter'Angreal and healing</b>
body:
To answer Burr's question, as to why Nynaeve would be needed. Perhaps not to <br />operate but to produce. In order to make any tool the tool maker has to have some idea of how the tool is supposed to work.<br />SO Elayne will need Nynaeve to help show what weaves to incorporate?


created: 2001-07-16 18:49:21
subject: <b>Here's a thought . . .</b>
body:
Sounds to me as if the elusive &quot;last sa'angreal&quot; (second most powerful, right? I can never keep it straight with Callandor and the Chodan Kal) is the Sangreal/Holy Grail.  The Holy Grail was quite capable of many things, not just healing, and would be a neat tie-in with Arthurian stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 15:00:53
subject: <b>Use for Nynaeve</b>
body:
As pointed out above she would be needed to make the thing, plus she's probably the most powerful/skilled Healer in the Creator knows how long (or will be), she figured how to Heal that which could not be Healed (Stilling/Gentling) not even in the Age of Legends (though one could argue that in an Age past people knew the way of it). Also just because sa'angreal and angreal have never before done these things doesn't mean they couldn't...remember Stilling/Gentling couldn't be healed either everyone said so, it must be true! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Is it a longshot that this will happen exactly as I said it, or even a little like I said it? Certainly.<br />My main point is to get people's brains thumpin'.


created: 2001-07-26 00:40:16
subject: <b>Why Nynaeve is needed.</b>
body:
She would be needed for the same reason the Windfinder's were needed to use the Bowl of Winds. To get the maximum effect it would need a VERY capable user. I think the situations would very much be similar.


created: 2005-03-06 20:32:05
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Very interesting... I've thought about the similarity between sangreal and sa'angreal before. The One Power is somehow connected to the Creator, right. If you think of it as the Creator's power, and a sa'angreal as a powerful tool that enables you to wield a large amount of this power, the similarity is just common sense. The Creator is like God and what better to equate a sa'angreal to than that famous relic the Holy Grail.


created: 2001-07-13 14:30:42
subject: <b>Endings</b>
body:
Something you quite seem to forget in this theory is that almost all (or the best) action takes place place at the end of each book. Therefor, its not so strange that the forsaken die in the ends


created: 2001-07-13 17:00:22
subject: <b>Naaaaw</b>
body:
Ishamael died a whole pile of times without losing his body, including in book two.<br /><br />I think this is a case of trying to see patterns too hard.  I mean, who notices that Forsaken only die every other book?  Apparently Djinnmastr, but nobody else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 17:00:31
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I actually made this observation a while ago, when I'd only gotten as far as reading <i>The Fires of Heaven</i>.  I never got around to posting it, though....<br /><br />I have one to add to your list, too:  Moghedien was captured (not killed, but captured) in an odd-numbered book.<br /><br />You set me thinking on one thing though:  what will happen in book ten?  I think we'll see the Elaida/Egwene confrontation everyone's been dreaming about, we may see the Gawyn/Rand misunderstanding finally end, we will probably follow Perrin as he rescues Faile.  We might see the Mat/Tuon thing mature a bit as well.  The final few chapters will most likely be about the taking of the White Tower and the city of Tar Valon by Bryne's army, the Whitecloaks (they'll capitalize on the Aes Sedai's division to invade, and Galad will take over), and Egwene's rebel Tower.  However, I expect something major to happen with the Seanchan, too--in order for Galad to lead the Whitecloaks, we need to follow Eamon Valda's story a bit, as well as Tuon's for Mat to be happy.<br /><br />So between Egwene, Perrin, and Mat, we may not need to see a lot of Rand, and since we don't necessarily need to kill Demandred until book eleven, we STILL won't have the Taimandred issue resolved!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 22:23:26
subject: <b>Building....</b>
body:
The reason i think there is a climax at the end of every odd book is because it takes about 2 books to establish a chosen's identity and see how it interacts with Rand, and other characters...<br /><br />You cant have Sammael die without knowing why, how, where, when...<br /><br />Same for the rest of them...<br />But as said, there is always something good at the end of each book that makes a climax for that series number<br /><br />Its all good<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 03:03:41
subject: <b>Won't Mesaana Be Involved In The Tower Power Struggle</b>
body:
Couldn't Mesaana possibly be killed or captured in book 10 if the Tower conflict comes to a head. Also, wouldn't Aran'gar be involved and maybe have his/her identity(or at least ability) discovered. Couldn't this possibly throw this whole theory out of whack.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 21:25:31
subject: <b>Not really a theory...</b>
body:
But I like it all the same. I think that Egwene will feature heavily in book 10 for a few reasons<br /><br />Perrin disappeared in book 5- Lots of him in book 6<br />Mat disappeared in book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> Lots in book 9<br />Egwene disapeared in book 9- lots in book 10?<br /><br />Arangar headaches have to go somewhere<br />Sheriam incident must be solved<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 17:34:35
subject: <b>Good point..</b>
body:
... It had occurred to to me awhile back about the Forsaken only dying in odd numbered books. I never noticed the way that even books had a new plot element show up though.<br /><br />   In response to the above post I think that when ever the white tower situation comes to a head that the Mesaana and Halima/Arangar situations will have to be resolved. In fact it's all the work that has gone into the Arangar situation that makes me suspicious that she's/he's still alive. It'd seem a waste to do all that development on her then kill her off camera.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 23:41:11
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
do you think that maybe we might be lucky and have Faile killed in book 10 instead? <br /><br />Then Perrin could maybe go into some sort of wolf rage or something and kill a whole big bunch of folks... if we're REALLY lucky, that might include a big group of Aes Sedai who're in the middle of a &quot;now listen to me, because I know everything, and you're just a nobody..&quot; speech.<br /><br />Just wishful thinking, I know, but surely there are some other people out there who are tired of all the moaning, whining and stupidity of quite a few of the major characters? <br /><br />Go on, admit it to yourselves and others...<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-16 05:06:57
subject: <b>sabljak</b>
body:
Shut.  Up.<br />While it WOULD be cool if Perrin got really, REALLY mad, Faile shouldn't die.  She is probably the coolest female character in the WOT universe (and a LOT less annoying then such characters as Nynaeve and Elayne).  Maybe if Perrin just thought she was dead, but she wasn't really...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 12:56:27
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
Sorry, I can't agree with this for one fact.  RJ wanted to end this series in just a few books to begin with.  When the series was only gonna be 3 books long, i'm sure bunches would have died in book 2.  When it was gonna be 6 books long, at least some would have died/been incapacitated in 4.  I think this is just a pattern that developed along with the storyline, but that RJ isn't really concious of following.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 21:43:05
subject: <b>rathan</b>
body:
well ok, i'll compromise... Perrin can THINK that she's dead, I'll BELIEVE (HOPE) that she's dead, and you can.. well, I'm not sure...<br /><br />hahahaha, no, seriously, I agree - Elayne, Nynaeve etc are really VERY annoying. I just like to pick on Faile, because she reminds me of a couple of people I know who can get a bit... demanding...<br /><br />But the rage-killing spree-thing would be pretty awesome, huh?<br /><br />There are a number of annoying characters without whom the story would do quite nicely...<br />


created: 2001-07-20 16:25:21
subject: <b>The number of books</b>
body:
Of course, RJ was going to end the series on book 6 or 7 originally, then it was 3 more hopefully around 6 or 7, then 3 more after Path of Daggers, and now that Winter's Heart is over...3 books still. I don't think the series is going another 10 books or something ridiculous like that, but don't be so sure it'll be over in 2 or 3 more books. It's seeming like it'll take 3 just to solve the plot threads, let alone Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 10:58:41
subject: <b>hmm..</b>
body:
Well, I suppose I can't disagree totally, seeing as how it is true in itself, but... I don't know... I just think it's an interesting coincidence.


created: 2001-07-25 04:56:51
subject: <b>sabljak</b>
body:
'coupla things.<br />Yes it would be cool for Perrin to get a wolf-generated anger storm, go on a huge killing/wounding spree, wipe the Shaido from the face of Randland, and show to the world that there are still wolfbrothers out there.  Yes, the plot would move faster without certain characters (but not be nearly as fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  ).  No, it should definately not be Faile that dies.<br /><br /><br />That's all, really.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 07:27:30
subject: <b>I like your theory</b>
body:
I agree, Grandeal killed Asmodean.<br />The name of the member of Black Ajah who killed Os'angar is Elza.<br />I think CoT will end up with Moiraine's rescue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 14:59:08
subject: <b>Absolutely Fabulous!</b>
body:
I loved this theory on the message board. Keep up the great work.  However, I really want to know why Verin was exiled from Far Madding.  Also, I have yet to read a convincing argument explaining the whole &quot;Moiraine sent me&quot; situation in tGH.  Nothing against your theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> , just a couple of points I would like to see resolved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 15:14:31
subject: <b>Don't Agree</b>
body:
I don't agree with Moridin. He is using circumstantial evdince to try and make us believe that Verin is hunting the Black Ajah. The proofs he gives are mole hills, and he's making them into mountains. I think that he is putting to much into Robert Jordans words. Hasn't he considered the idea that Robert Jordan wrote that just to make the book more realistic and a better read. And I think every one should drop the Verin subject and move on to something new.<br /><br />These posts about the same topics are getting boring. Next thing you know another person is going to post a theory that Mat will introduce gun powder to Almeridian.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Lover&quot; of Quotation Marks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JACKAROO<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 16:01:10
subject: <b>Circumstancial possibly, molehills definately not.....</b>
body:
That is a HELL of a lot of evidence, much more than Verin being a Darkfriend or her plan being on the Dragon Reborn, possibly added together. I can explain ALL her behaviour quite well unlike other theories and fits almost perfectly, even if I do say so. If this was a courtcase with that much evidence there would be no contest<br /><br />READ THE WHOLE THEORY FROM START TO FINISH AND TELL SPECIFICALLY WHY YOU THINK IT IS WRONG!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 17:24:08
subject: <b>Finally</b>
body:
Well, you told me about it on the message board, but damn!  You put me to shame!  Good job!  I believe it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 02:57:18
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
That is....wow. I think you have put the whole Verin speculations to rest with that. It is conclusive, it fixes all the little details, and it makes sense. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> If you ever get time out from doing all those quizzes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> you should devote some thought to the Asmodean question or some of the other raging debates. You'd sort them out, I think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 06:25:42
subject: <b>Moiraine sent me</b>
body:
The answer to the &quot;Moiraine sent me&quot; part is simpele. Moiraine may have meanshond some thing like; I whis some one cud cepp an eye on him. this can be interperatet by Vetin that can justifie &quot;Moiraine sent me&quot;


created: 2001-07-15 09:44:32
subject: <b>Full of detail, good theory, but...</b>
body:
I agree that the evidence is all circumstantial.  There's a lot, but Moridin has interpreted it all, and there are many alternate interpretations, some of which can cover all those points.  Not to say she's NOT a black ajah hunter, but I'm not convinced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 19:18:55
subject: <b>Very good work Moridin_2000</b>
body:
I think you hit the nail on the head. A lot of this may be circumstantial, but the amount of evidence stacked up together is quite convincing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 21:11:49
subject: <b>Ridiculous...</b>
body:
OK, basically what you are doing in this post is listing lost of slightly unusual behaviour that can nevertheless be very easily explained if you accept that Verin has a more normal mission, but you jump on it and cry &quot;BA HUNTER&quot; at every opportunity.<br /><br />&quot;Anger over the Oaths&quot;<br /><br />according to Suian (and Egwene later agrees), the Oaths are the core of Aes Sedai - what it means to be Aes Sedai in fact. Verin screaming could easily be justified in any other sister.<br /><br /><br />&quot;On entering Tar Valon and the Tower- Verin makes some very interesting comments&quot;<br />2. &#8216;Now the real danger begins&#8217;<br /><br />I'm not really surprised about this. The girls have just run away from the tower - almost unheard of for Accepted, let alone novices. And they are carrying the Horn of Valere with them. And they realise there may be more BA in the Tower, who know about them. Add to this Lan's comment, from book 1 &quot;here, i trust none. In the Tower i trust only half&quot;. Who wouldn't be afraid?!<br /><br /><br />The ring ter&#8217;angreal. &quot;Also we know that the former head of the Black Ajah made it look like the Amyrlin died in her sleep. This suggests to me that the Black Ajah have been using Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod for some time now&quot;. <br /><br />Noper. In book 7 from, Alviarin's thoughts, in Book 9 from (?) Temaile's, and from New Spring we can tell that they put her to the question, and her bed hadn't been slept in.<br /><br /><br />Advice to Perrin- Verin says to him &#8216;There are many designs in the White Tower, maybe not evil but watch yourself&#8217;<br /><br />I don't think this is any worse than Moiraine telling Rand not to trust any Aes Sedai, not even Verin, or Lan's comment from above... Also Moiraine explained in book 1 about all the factions, and Elyas, who was also a wolfbrother, had a bad runin with AS when his secret god out, someone as knowledgeable as Verin would probably know, because she knew about Hurin.<br /><br /><br />Verin and other sisters- In Lord of Chaos Merana notes that Verin is like &#8216;A robin looking at worms&#8217;. It seems to me that Verin is studying the other sisters intensely, indeed like a predator. She is watching out for Black sisters. <br /><br />It seems to me that her eyes must be hurting - and yours too for looking so deep into this. Come on, really! Verin always looks like a robin, whenever she doesn't look muddled.<br /><br /><br />Dark prophecies- Verin seems to be very interested in the Dark Prophesy written in blood at Fal Dara. She gives a very detailed interpretation, which suggests to me that she is familiar with thing like this. <br /><br />All she figured out was that the Hammer refered to Hawkwing, and the Daughter of the Night refered to Lanfear. And the whole time Suian was going &quot;i know that daughter&quot;. Not much of familiarity required for those responces.<br /><br /><br />Finally there is the Stedding incident. I don&#8217;t believe that she channeled but rather could sense there was something wrong, something to do with having no soul. In Winter&#8217;s Heart Slayer talks about how Grey Men are slimy and cold. If Verin knows this then she should be able to tell without channeling that the Ogier was &#8216;empty&#8217;.<br /><br />Sheriam did the same thing in book 3 when she touched the dead gray man - recoiling instantly in shock. <br /><br /><br />Assassination attempt- In Path of Daggers Verin thinks to herself how a man once told her that her smile reminded him of his mother, and then he pulled a knife on her and tried to kill her. I think that this was a Darkfriend.<br /><br />This is complete conjecture! He was a DF because he mentioned her mother! Come on man. He probably didn't know she was Aes Sedai by then. And even if he was so what? You imply that the DF was sent by a BA sister. This is nonsense. If the BA knew she existed, and was a so-called BA hunter, she would have no chance to survive... the BA have killed Amyrlins, one lonely Brown wouldn't stand a CHANCE. There is no way the BA could know about her.<br /><br /><br />Secrecy- The reason for Verin&#8217;s secrecy would be obvious if she were hunting the Black Ajah. She cannot risk anyone finding out because she can&#8217;t trust anyone. This also explains why she writes in code.<br /><br />Is there any sister who is not cloaked in a mask of secrecy? Mat notes that even Elayne and Nyneave are. Moiraine certainly was, because she was looking for the DR. <br /><br /><br />Alanna&#8217;s reaction to the Rebels- Alanna can&#8217;t conceive that anyone would go against the Tower. However, this seems no surprise to Verin. She seems quite willing to accept that there are those in the Tower that would try to destroy it. The Black Ajah.<br /><br />No, not at all necessarily. According to Suian / Egwene in book 7, the Tower has been broken before, but hidden in the secret records. Verin is old, Brown ajah and a fairly high standing AS, therefore she has had lots of time to search through the library for not so well hidden sources, and she could easily find this. Also, Alanna had just lost her Warder and her emotions were seriously playing up. Verin probably had the natural reaction.<br /><br /><br />Cadsuane-Verin says that Cadsuane is &#8216;dangerous and unpredictable&#8217; and shows a real reluctance to trust Cadsuane. Many people know about the Black Ajah, but yet are not as suspicious about everyone as Verin is. Verin seems to make it her business whether sisters are Black or not. <br /><br />When did Verin find out Cadsuane was not BA, with any certainty? Never!


created: 2001-07-16 04:18:06
subject: <b>admirable</b>
body:
The sheer amount of work put into this theory by moridin is admirable, as is the work by kenco in his rebuttal.  I fear I must side with kenco, the circumstantial evidence explained by moridin could be explained many different ways!  Is verin hunting dark friends?  Maybe.  Piling up even a mountain of molehills isn't sufficient for proof.  Bravo gentlemen!


created: 2001-07-16 04:57:00
subject: <b>Questionable motives</b>
body:
Yes Verin can be a hunter of darkfriends but there is not a single hard evidence in this post that can't be explained to something else.<br /><br />Piling up comments for supporting any theory can be done easily.<br /><br />Since all the quotes, comments, circumstances used in this theory can also be used to support the theory that Verins 71 year old long quest has been to find out who stole her panties.<br /><br />Keep in mind that i don't question the likleyhood of Verin being a hunter of darkfriends i'm questing the author/people that think this theory must be accurate because he can put togheter a massive amount of circumstances that can be interperated either way.<br /><br />(sorry for bad english)<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-16 07:46:00
subject: <b>Hear Hear</b>
body:
An excellently well-argued theory but it doesn't pass the &quot;reasonable doubt&quot; test like the Mat/Gunpowder theory for example.<br /><br />I think the timings are the most important clues (as well as the use of compulsion). What happened 70 years ago that was such a mistake? Which major characters had something happen to them 70 years ago that Verin would consider a mistake? In which country was she at the time? And why would she use a fatally flawed version of compulsion and then put a Darkfriend in close proximity to Rand?


created: 2001-07-16 18:01:11
subject: <b>Yes all true Im afraid....</b>
body:
Firstly congrats to Kenco for giving a good response<br /><br />And although I shouldnt be saying this it is mostly all conjecture and circumstansial evidence BUT...<br /><br />I WOULD like to see anyone match up this amount of evidence for any possibility other than she is a Black Ajah hunter. Plenty of people are very fond of dismissing it by saying there are lots of reasons other than the ones I have given but the very important fact remains that they dont give any other suggestions. And they cant make those suggestions fit every situation. Some may fit some of her actions and not others, but they cant explain EVERYTHING.<br /><br />Also if you have read my other theories on why she isnt Black Ajah herself and why she her plan hasnt been helping the Dragon reborn all along you would see that mine is a much more likely explanation AND why the other two cant possibly be true. What other explanations can be given? Remember thta it has to apply to all her actions and not just some!<br /><br />I will take Kencos respons seperately if you dont mind, I have a lot to say on it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 18:59:55
subject: <b>OK, This is why I disagree....</b>
body:
Again thanks for taking the time to actually TELL me specifically what is wrong with my theory. <br /><br />OK, basically what you are doing in this post is listing lost of slightly unusual behaviour that can nevertheless be very easily explained if you accept that Verin has a more normal mission, but you jump on it and cry &quot;BA HUNTER&quot; at every opportunity.<br /><br />What is this normal mission? Can you fit it together with everything? I thought everybody knew that Verin was up to something very suspicious. Definately no normal cause.<br /><br />&quot;Anger over the Oaths&quot;<br /><br />according to Suian (and Egwene later agrees), the Oaths are the core of Aes Sedai - what it means to be Aes Sedai in fact. Verin screaming could easily be justified in any other sister.<br /><br />Could be but Verin seems to be very mild mannered all the time. It is out of character. <br /><br />&quot;On entering Tar Valon and the Tower- Verin makes some very interesting comments&quot;<br />2. &#8216;Now the real danger begins&#8217;<br /><br />I'm not really surprised about this. The girls have just run away from the tower - almost unheard of for Accepted, let alone novices. And they are carrying the Horn of Valere with them. And they realise there may be more BA in the Tower, who know about them. Add to this Lan's comment, from book 1 &quot;here, i trust none. In the Tower i trust only half&quot;. Who wouldn't be afraid?!<br /><br />Those three comments were meant to go together. Number 3 was 'I always expect trouble, and so should you, in the Tower most of all'<br />Lan's comment even backs this up very slightly. HE knows that the Black Ajah exists himself, and one of his CLOSEST friends turned out to be a Darkfriend in New Spring. His whole country was betrayed by a Darkfriend. He would be extremely suspicious. The cause of this suspicion? Darkfriends and the Black Ajah....could it not be the same for Verin?<br /><br /><br />The ring ter&#8217;angreal. &quot;Also we know that the former head of the Black Ajah made it look like the Amyrlin died in her sleep. This suggests to me that the Black Ajah have been using Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod for some time now&quot;. <br /><br />Noper. In book 7 from, Alviarin's thoughts, in Book 9 from (?) Temaile's, and from New Spring we can tell that they put her to the question, and her bed hadn't been slept in.<br /><br />YOU are wrong here. Here's the quote:<br /><br />'Jarna had Tamra Ospenya squeezed like a bunch of grapes and made her appear as if she had died in her sleep'<br /><br />Yes, they did question her BUT they didnt have to kill her now and then. This could just as easily have been done in TAR and we KNOW that all the 13 Black Ajah escaped with Dream Terangreal. They MUST have known how to use them and the only way I can think of squeezing someone like a bunch of grapes and having her still whole is in Tel'aran'rhiod.<br /><br />Advice to Perrin- Verin says to him &#8216;There are many designs in the White Tower, maybe not evil but watch yourself&#8217;<br /><br />I don't think this is any worse than Moiraine telling Rand not to trust any Aes Sedai, not even Verin, or Lan's comment from above... Also Moiraine explained in book 1 about all the factions, and Elyas, who was also a wolfbrother, had a bad runin with AS when his secret god out, someone as knowledgeable as Verin would probably know, because she knew about Hurin.<br /><br />The first thing is that Moiraine is definately aware of the Black Ajah (She killed one in New Spring) she could be warning him about that. <br /><br />Verin and other sisters- In Lord of Chaos Merana notes that Verin is like &#8216;A robin looking at worms&#8217;. It seems to me that Verin is studying the other sisters intensely, indeed like a predator. She is watching out for Black sisters. <br /><br />It seems to me that her eyes must be hurting - and yours too for looking so deep into this. Come on, really! Verin always looks like a robin, whenever she doesn't look muddled.<br /><br />That may be but it is also a perfect quote to show that she is inspecting all the sisters carefully and you know why she would be doing that....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Dark prophecies- Verin seems to be very interested in the Dark Prophesy written in blood at Fal Dara. She gives a very detailed interpretation, which suggests to me that she is familiar with thing like this. <br /><br />All she figured out was that the Hammer refered to Hawkwing, and the Daughter of the Night refered to Lanfear. And the whole time Suian was going &quot;i know that daughter&quot;. Not much of familiarity required for those responces.<br /><br />Reread the scene and you will see that it is FAR more than just that. Also you forgot to mention that Dark Prophecy in her study.<br /><br />Finally there is the Stedding incident. I don&#8217;t believe that she channeled but rather could sense there was something wrong, something to do with having no soul. In Winter&#8217;s Heart Slayer talks about how Grey Men are slimy and cold. If Verin knows this then she should be able to tell without channeling that the Ogier was &#8216;empty&#8217;.<br /><br />Sheriam did the same thing in book 3 when she touched the dead gray man - recoiling instantly in shock. <br /><br />Again that proves my point. Verin knows about Shadowspawn. She is from Far Madding and they barely believe in shadowspawn there. Sheriam is from the Borderlands, Shadowspawn is rife there. Although Verin would be expected to know something I dont think that she would research it without cause. Her interest in Shadowspawn is almost unnatural. And also we have not ruled out the possibility of Sheriam being Black....<br /><br /><br />Assassination attempt- In Path of Daggers Verin thinks to herself how a man once told her that her smile reminded him of his mother, and then he pulled a knife on her and tried to kill her. I think that this was a Darkfriend.<br /><br />This is complete conjecture! He was a DF because he mentioned her mother! Come on man. He probably didn't know she was Aes Sedai by then. And even if he was so what? You imply that the DF was sent by a BA sister. This is nonsense. If the BA knew she existed, and was a so-called BA hunter, she would have no chance to survive... the BA have killed Amyrlins, one lonely Brown wouldn't stand a CHANCE. There is no way the BA could know about her.<br /><br />The mother part isnt really important. But I do think it is rather strange. It seems like he is trying to get close to Verin by sweetening her up. Then he pulls a knife on her. As far as we kno he didn't want money- why the hell would he talk about his mother if he was mugging her? Then Verin KILLS HIM! She could just as easily have bound him with air or taken his knife! She would only do this with a Darkfriend! An exuse me....Moiraine killed a Black sister and was being hunted by the Black Ajah. She was only newly raised and Verin is much more than that. Plus Verin is a hell of a lot smarter than Moiraine. I think she could have pulled it off..<br /><br />Secrecy- The reason for Verin&#8217;s secrecy would be obvious if she were hunting the Black Ajah. She cannot risk anyone finding out because she can&#8217;t trust anyone. This also explains why she writes in code.<br /><br />Is there any sister who is not cloaked in a mask of secrecy? Mat notes that even Elayne and Nyneave are. Moiraine certainly was, because she was looking for the DR. <br /><br />Do you forget why Nyneave and Elayne were masked in secrecy? They were charged with finding the Black Ajah by the Amyrlin. And Moiraines plan was hardly 'normal' so you could expect Verin's to be something as wild. As for sisters not masked in secrecy....there are loads. Leane, Serafelle, Carlinya, Sheriam, Annoura, Meralille, Merana, Bera, Kiruna, Beldiene...nearly everyone that isnt hunting the Black Ajah, Black Ajah or has something to do with finding Rand. They might seem mystical to non-Aes Sedai but they go NOWHERE NEAR the lengths that Verin does.<br /><br />Alanna&#8217;s reaction to the Rebels- Alanna can&#8217;t conceive that anyone would go against the Tower. However, this seems no surprise to Verin. She seems quite willing to accept that there are those in the Tower that would try to destroy it. The Black Ajah.<br /><br />No, not at all necessarily. According to Suian / Egwene in book 7, the Tower has been broken before, but hidden in the secret records. Verin is old, Brown ajah and a fairly high standing AS, therefore she has had lots of time to search through the library for not so well hidden sources, and she could easily find this. Also, Alanna had just lost her Warder and her emotions were seriously playing up. Verin probably had the natural reaction.<br /><br />Im sure that Verin could have found about that as mine was only a possible explanation. As for Verin being high standing...shes not even a Sitter or very strong in the Power. The only thing she's got is her age and knowledge. Two prime reasons that she would be picked for hunting the BA in the first place. And why ISN'T she a Sitter?<br /><br />Cadsuane-Verin says that Cadsuane is &#8216;dangerous and unpredictable&#8217; and shows a real reluctance to trust Cadsuane. Many people know about the Black Ajah, but yet are not as suspicious about everyone as Verin is. Verin seems to make it her business whether sisters are Black or not. <br /><br />When did Verin find out Cadsuane was not BA, with any certainty? Never! <br /><br />Cadsuane was going on about both revealing the Black Ajah (Not the same chapter) and then she gets really into talking about how protective she is of Rand and how she needs him to realise he is still human. She also says that he must WIN the Last Battle. Lots of reasons why Verin would finally dismiss the notion that Cadsuane was Black.<br />There may have been more in that talk but it sort of cuts of there...right where Verin says she was glad she could trust Cadsuane at last.<br /><br />Again thanks for the response. I look forward to answering posts like this because its the trying to convince people that disagree with you that really counts. Having a contraversial theory is much more fun than having one that everyone agrees with!<br /><br />Looking forward to more responses!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 19:17:00
subject: <b>I am in awe . . .</b>
body:
Whenever I see a theory this complete and this detailed I realize that I really, really, *really* need to read the books again.  All those names, half of which I don't remember at all . . . very nice work, right or wrong. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Harrasser of those with titles at the end of their posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 00:04:13
subject: <b>A Responce</b>
body:
Your main point is completely correct - it is pointless for me to criticise your theory if i don't have an alternative. I say the same thing about Taimandred theories. The only posts by anti-TDers are criticisms, i haven't seen a decent alternative argument.<br /><br />Unfortunately i don't have time to answer all your new points, but this one i think is important:<br /><br />[you]The ring ter&#8217;angreal. &quot;Also we know that the former head of the Black Ajah made it look like the Amyrlin died in her sleep. This suggests to me that the Black Ajah have been using Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod for some time now&quot;. <br /><br />[Me]Noper. In book 7 from, Alviarin's thoughts, in Book 9 from (?) Temaile's, and from New Spring we can tell that they put her to the question, and her bed hadn't been slept in.<br /><br />[You]YOU are wrong here. Here's the quote:<br />'Jarna had Tamra Ospenya squeezed like a bunch of grapes and made her appear as if she had died in her sleep'<br /><br />[you]Yes, they did question her BUT they didnt have to kill her now and then. This could just as easily have been done in TAR and we KNOW that all the 13 Black Ajah escaped with Dream Terangreal. They MUST have known how to use them and the only way I can think of squeezing someone like a bunch of grapes and having her still whole is in Tel'aran'rhiod.<br /><br />[Me, now] I still disagree here. There is a big problem: Aes Sedai shield their dreams. And even the Wise Ones do now know how to crack through a shield - surely the AS would not. <br /><br />But, even assuming that for whatever reason she did not shield her dreams, then they would have a perfect murder. They drag her into T'A'R, squeeze her dry, and kill her so that it seems she died in her sleep. And they never had to come near her room in the physical world.<br /><br />BUT, &quot;New Spring&quot;, from &quot;Legends&quot;, Suain is telling Moiraine about Meilyn Arganya, who was another Aes Sedai that Tamra Opseyna (the Amyrlin at the time when they found at the Dragon had been Reborn) had set to searching for the DR. This is Suian to Moiraine:<br />&quot;Meilyn returned to the Tower almost a month ago. [...] I decided to speak to her. [...] I sneaked into her rooms and hid under the bed. So the servants wouldn't see me when they turned down the sheets. I fell alseep under there. Sunrise woke me, and the bed handn't been slept in. [...] While i was spooning my porridge, Chesmal Emry came in to ... She ... She announced that Meilyn had been found in her bed, that she'd died during the night. [...] Meilyn didn't have a mark on her.&quot;<br /><br />Phew! Anyway, we now know that Chesmal, or one of the BA, knows how to stop someones heart with the Power. Whatever happened, they clearly got to her before she went to bed, so they didn't know about T'A'R (well enough, perhaps) at that time.<br /><br /><br />ANYWAY, on to a theory of mine as a counterargument.<br />A few points i would stress.<br />1) Verin knows too much. Compulsion, the possession of Corianin's notes and the ring terangreal, the Dark Prophecy about Ishamael, the portal stones.<br /><br />It is clear to me that she thirsts for knowledge like someone stuck in a desert does water. She searches knowledge whatever it is, without moral / ethical concerns. The way she examines the Myrdraal, studying it like another specimen, or her knowledge on the Drak Prophecy &quot;blood calls blood&quot; demonstrates this. She doesn't care where her knowledge comes from, deosn't care that she might even be stilled for knowing compulsion.<br /><br />2) She has unsworn the Oaths. I think this is made rather clear from Book two. When she joins Rand's / Ingtar's party, she says &quot;Moiraine sent me, Lord Ingtar.&quot; Later on in the same book, when Moiraine finally meets up with Rand right at the end, she says &quot;I did not send Verin.&quot;<br /><br />Some have argued that this is just a subtle bending of the truth, but closer examination shows this is not so. Aes Sedai truth bending is always easy to tell from the reader's perspective.<br /><br />For example, in the same book, when Perrin goes to the infirmary in Fal Dara to check up on the wounded Mat, he meets the Keeper of Chronicles (i have a mind blank atm i can't remember her) and she says &quot;when he wakes up you will think that nothing is wrong with him.&quot; That isn't a direct quote, but i do remember she says the words &quot;you will think&quot;. Perrin thinks to himself that she was evading the truth, but he couldn't pick it, but the reader can.<br /><br />Another example. Before Alanna bonds Rand, she says &quot;nothing i do will hurt you&quot;. He falls for it bait hook and sinker, then is furious when he finds out what she has done to him. She then explains her evasion.<br /><br />But in Verin, we have a complete contradiction. No wheedling out of it. No RJ error. She has unsowrn the Oaths, no doubt to complete her mission (whatever it is).<br /><br /><br />Now that i think about it, i'm not sure that her mission is behind most of her unusual behaviour. A lot of incidents could be attributed to her thirst for knowledge, or knowing to much. If she knew too much (i.e. compulsion, the ring terangreal, or something else we don't know about) then this explains why she says &quot;there is always danger [in Tar Valon]&quot;. It also explains the way she is always following the Taveren: Rand in book 2, a bit of Mat in book 3, Perrin in Book 4, then back for Rand in book 6 onwards - she simply wants to know. <br /><br />I think Verin's character is summed up well in a quote from book 2, when she explains to Suian and Moiraine why she won't tell their secret. The reason she gives is that she is interested about the progression of channeling madness. She is happy to let the DR loose on the world, to channel and go mad, so she can learn more!<br /><br />Her plan, i would hazard a guess, would be based aroud a peic of knowledge, possibly a remnant from the AoL that someone hadn't picked up, or a connection she had made. She follows Rand because he has the poewr to make her knowledge reality. There we go, that's the best i can do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-17 07:51:11
subject: <b>This is not 'Highlander'</b>
body:
I'm sorry, it's not like Highlander, were they meet and fight and meet and fight and so on...<br />I can't believe that anyone's plan would be to hunt Black Ajah for SEVENTY years.  It just doesn't make sense.  It's like saying, &quot;I plan to get rich in 70 years&quot;.  No one says this because either you get rich now or in the near future, or you don't...   <br /><br />And besides, if she does this sort of stuff she should be Blue Ajah.<br /><br />And I have no idea why I mentioned Highlander,  it's not that good a movie anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 08:51:36
subject: <b>70 years is reasonable...</b>
body:
Say Verin was charged by the Brown Amyrlin to find Black Ajah. She wouldn't just stop. You can't just leave something like that. So even after Kirin Melway's death she continued her cause.<br /><br />The bit about the Blue Ajah is incorrect. Remember that seventy years ago Verin had still been Aes Sedai for possibly 70 years. It wasnt her purpose from the beginning. She didnt decide to hunt them out herself. And there isnt a single Blue sister in Elaida's Hunters. She doesnt HAVE to be Blue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 09:03:09
subject: <b>Just a few points Kelso</b>
body:
Thanks for finding the New Spring quote, my copy has been lent to a friend..<br /><br />I never even thought about AS Shielding their dreams. But Im sure that we cant assume that ALL Aes Sedai do this all the time. Also it is this OTHER AS that Suian Sanche talks about and not Tamra Ospenya. The grape squeezing thing is in my eyes typical of TAR. I think it would be a good idea to post this argument on the MB. Its getting very interesting and you would convince a lot of people.<br /><br />As for your alternate theory, I have heard talk of the like before. Someone compared Verin to some guy that would do anything for knowledge in another series. I hadnt read the series so I dont know. <br /><br />But the main flaw is that Verin seems to be much more organised than just going along with what she finds interesting. Id admit it is a very good explanation but it cant explain what her seventy years of delicate work has been. She has been AS for far longer than that so why only start then?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 20:47:39
subject: <b>Alternate theories</b>
body:
First, I have to say that in Taimandred the general counter-explanation is that Taim is Taim, and that is certainly the starting point which we all begin believing when we first hear of Taim.  Also, I and Zerakul have independently developed a counter-theory that states that sometimes Taim is Taim, but sometimes Demandred assumes Taim's identity, which is impossible to argue against at this point with any real evidence which is why I like it.<br /><br />Okay, back to the point...<br /><br />The reason I don't offer a counter-theory, Moridin, is quite simply that I started the books over 3 years ago, have never once reread one of the books, am not really willing to research a good counter-theory, and am quite convinced that those counter-theories do exist, thank you.  Plus Kenco gave one.<br /><br />So, for a bad counter-theory - Verin is a lesbian who power-erases memory of rape from other Aes Sedai and has been planning on using the Choedan Kal to compel all women into lesbianism and destroy all men at once for 70 years.  She helps Rand because the DO is grossed out by lesbians.  I'm not anti-lesbian or anything, I just want to use something quite ridiculous and easy.<br /><br />(BTW before I begin in full I agree with those other two relating theories of yours and I don't deny the possibility of your explanation.  And it isn't TOTALLY granted that Verin has links with the Black Ajah)<br /><br />Actually, I linked it to the whole theory and overall decided it wasn't worth the possible insult and overall stupidity.  Figure it out for yourself, I swear I got all the points.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 07:27:22
subject: <b>Love the lesbian idea</b>
body:
I can't be arsed to re-read all the books either and can't hep thinking that coming up with a theory that Demandred &quot;assumes&quot; Taim's personality sometimes is both far-fetched and the signs of a desperate mind seeking to create plots within plots within plots. Frankly the whole series is gettign beyond complicated and I hope that every prophecy, viewing and dream is as simple and obvious as they sound. Mat WILL lose an eye, Rand WILL bleed on Shayol Ghul etc.<br /><br />That said, with absolutely no evidence other than a couple of random quotes from Verin, I think 70 years ago, she went to Shayol Ghul and got snared by the Dark One and is trying to wriggle on the hook. Would explain a lot I think?<br /><br />Also, did she have anything to do with the whole Luc/Isam thing because she seemed to recognise him BUT didn't give him away?


created: 2001-07-24 00:25:39
subject: <b>A word on exposing of Black Ajah</b>
body:
First reason u do not expose is u woulod expose yourself to danger.<br /> Second u warn other Black Ajah to be more careful.<br />  I believe that some of these 'accidental stillings or deaths&quot; which happen when &quot;studying ter' angreal&quot; are possibly cases of Black Ajah being caught and punished most likly these are ones who wherre killed. what way is there besides this that does not run extreme risk to one health.<br />


created: 2001-08-01 18:30:37
subject: <b>Be warned, I'll argue soon...</b>
body:
I hope you read my comment on your theory about Verin's plan not being connected with Rand.<br />I wouldn't say that it's clear (although I don't believe it right now) her plan is not connected to BOTH the Black Ajah and Tarmon Gaidon/the Breaking.<br />But you're arguing that hunting the Black Ajah is her ONLY plan.<br />I think the evidence is much too weak as of now, but I see you have put a lot of effort in this, so it will take at least as much time to answer.<br />I'll try to do it as soon as possible though...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 15:59:44
subject: <b>Verin is mysterious, but hunting Black Ajah? - Hardly...</b>
body:
I refuted that Verin's goal has nothing to do with Rand in an earlier article. Now I think it's time to challenge this theory too. My primary goal is not to introduce an alternative, but rather to show that the evidence for Verin hunting Black Ajah you have presented are very weak indeed. To do this, I will still need to use some theory involving Rand to show that some of the evidence supports such a theory as much, or even more. My chosen counter theory is therefore that Verin has used all these years to plan how to limit the damage of Tarmon Gaidon and its aftermath, mostly being the Breaking. Since Rand is a very intimate part of both Tarmon Gaidon and certainly any possible Breaking, this theory should suffice for my purpose.<br /><br />Before I begin, I would like to make clear that I do NOT believe Verin is a darkfriend, or that she has freed herself from any of the Oaths, or at the very least to from the one regarding not lying. From this standpoint, I'll try to counter your evidence one by one:<br /><br />Verin's anger towards Egwene - It's more than a stretch to say this is evidence for Verin hunting the Black Ajah. Remember this: In the White Tower, of which Verin is a central part, the hierrchical structure is very well-defined. Although strength is a almost the most importance, the possibly strongest difference is between real Aes Sedai and Accepted and Novices. While Accepted can have some leeway, Novices are simply expected to obey and follow everything said by a real Aes Sedai. Now, Egwene and the others are in a very precarious situation where they were lured away from the Tower by the Black Ajah when Novices (and Accepted) are supposed to NEVER leave the Tower premises. The White Tower as a whole is very vaey about the Black Ajah, and some of them even might think Egwene and the others followed Liandrin on purpose, as being part of the Black Ajah. With all this in mind, Verin has tried to regain control over the run-away Novices and Accepted on their way back, which of course means that they, as Novices/Accepted they are, should totally defer to Verin, as being Aes Sedai. Verin knows that their only chance to get accepted within the Tower again, is to do exactly as she tells them, because if they don't they will immediately be run over by suspicious Aes Sedai. And on top of this, the Tar Valon is more than usually heavily guarded by Whitecloaks who just wants to see the White Tower slip. This is a very precarious situation indeed.<br /><br />Now, with all that in mind, what happens? Egwene et al. start to attack Whitecloaks close to Tar Valon. More or less the worst thing they can do. And they do it despite Verin, who's in charge, having given them no permission whatsoever. This should be plenty enough to get her REALLY REALLY ANGRY. They have shown that they simply can't act as they must when entering the Tower. Of course Verin is furious. She MUST be obeyed, if those Novices and Accepted isn't to be stilled and thrown out of the Tower.<br /><br />So, with this in mind, Verin settles down to still try to get this in land. She tells the children to obey her and follow some simple rules. She also have three quotes, such as you have presented. The best explanation for those is not that Egwene et al should be vary for only Black Ajah, but EVERY Aes Sedai, black or not. With the situation in the Tower, it's actually not Blacks that pose the greatest danger, and Verin would know it, since she happens to be maybe the smartest AS in the series. ANY Aes Sedai, or even Accepted, will pose a danger to Egwene and the others, because of the situtation they have put themselves in. The reaction from Verin, an Aes Sedai of more than 100 years, is one of someone who as seen EVERYTHING. She has also developed a very very careful way of dealing with people because of it. Not because of the risk of Black Ajah, but because the White Tower is the most politically volatile institution in Randland, where EVERYONE has an agenda. Before being very certain of that agenda, especially in a more than usually dangerous situation such as this, one should be very vary indeed. This does not in any way mean Verin is hunting Black Ajah.<br /><br />Now, although I don't believe Verin meant the Black Ajah specifically in those comments, I should probably add, that even if she did, it doesn't mean she hunts Black Ajah, but rather that she is aware of their existance. Any sister less stubborn than Elaida would do that, so it's not an argument working towards your point.<br /><br />The ring ter'angreal - How do we know that the Black Ajah has any specific ties to Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod (T'A'R) ? We have gotten a good view on how the Black Ajah works, and we haven't gotten any indication that they have used those ter'angreal at all before taking them. A more reasonable explanation is rather that they were taken out of two reasons: The Forsaken use T'A'R and they wouldn't want any hunters finding them that way. To empty out the supply of them would easily achieve that. At some point some Forsaken must have told the Black Ajah exactly which of the ter'angreal that is used to reach T'A'R, and since the only Forsaken being free to do this earlier is a male, Ishamael, it's doubtfull he actually thought that had any merit. What would the Black Ajah use them for? No, more probable is that whoever sent the BA away (Mesaana, Greandal, Lanfear?) also saw that they took those ter'angreal, both to be used and to be hidden from any Forsaken hunters. It's interesting that Verin had such a ter'angreal, of course, but we have absolutely no way of knowing how she came about it, or why/how she has used it. Thus it does not in any way speak for her being a Black Ajah hunter.I would like to stress that we DON'T know if the Black Ajah have used these for some time. It does seem pretty odd that they would have let all those ter'angreal reside in the White Tower Dungeons though if they had, since that would mean they would actually have to take them out of there EVERY TIME they needed them. I'm not even going to try to argue all the other small points you mention in this thread, since they are a VERY far reach. Corianin died 400 years ago and would of course never have written that she was Black Ajah. IF Verin had been injured fighting Blacks, Verin would simply be DEAD, because her cover would likely already have been blown. We don't know ANYTHING about Corianin's notes, but if they DID reveal she was Black, Verin would never even consider giving them to Egwene. I suspect they rather contained things that could have made Egwene be too afraid of the T'A'R to even try entering...<br /><br />&#8216;We all must face the Dark One in one way or another&#8217; - This is an interesting quote, but it does not mean Verin hunts Black Ajah. It means that everyones battle is difference. To fight the devil does not have to mean to literally fight the devil, but rather to face ones difficulties etc etc. Everyone of course has to do that their own way. It's a very generic quote with no relevance whatsoever.<br /><br />Regarding what she says to Perrin: This is obviously a way to try to get Perrin's trust. It might also mean that Verin does not know exactly Alanna's agenda, or that she DOES know it and therefore would like to warn Perrin. I don't remember if this was before or after Alanna had suggested to bond Perrin, but it hardly matters. After these 9 books, it's painfully obvious that the White Tower has as many factions as there are sisters. To be vary of an AS is a good way to stay alive, whether the Black Ajah exists or not. The strongest meaning it's even POSSIBLE to give this quote is that Verin might think there IS a Black Ajah, but hardly that she hunts it. If she did, and believes Alanna IS BA, wouldn't she have done at least SOMETHING by now. No, whatever her stand, Verin does NOT believe Alanna is BA, and therefore that quote loses all relevance to your point.<br /><br />I have tried to explain how Verin is vary of EVERYONE, whether or not they are Black Ajah. After 70 years of hunting BA, she should have at least encountered SOME she knew WASN'T BA. With your reasoning, she wouldn't have any reason to be vary around them. But, the point is, that she doesn't work that way.- Verin is vary of EVERYONE, until she is 100 per cent sure of their agenda in a specific situation. This means that as soon as a new situation arises, she must be suspicious once more about sisters she knew stood on her side in other issues. This is Verin being smart, not hunting Black Ajah. <br /><br />No Warders first - Well, we actually get Verin herself thinking about this. If there is anything we can trust in the series, it's the thoughts of the specific people. If she chose sisters without warders first, because her hunt of the Black Ajah, that would have been in her mind. It wasn't. Therefore we will simply have to believe her own explanation of it. She wanted to take tham first because they were the easiest to handle.<br /><br />Katerine Alruddin's escape - Well, I don't know if she actually was certain Katerine was black (I'm not sure how to interpret that), but if she was, it would only be because she is a smart AS believing in the BA. The fact that she is so frustrated is actually MORE easily explained by her concern for Rand, than for some BA hunt. Red or Black, woul hardly matter since the woman still would be dangerous to Rand. This is enough to want her dead. But of course, if Verin now KNEW Katerine was black, it makes even more sense. Every sister we have seen is VERY vary of the BA, but despite that, they are not all Black Ajah hunters. This quote again lacks any strength to your argument.<br /><br />Why did she suggest the questioning - Apparently because she wanted to use her Compulsion. This compulsion can almost ONLY be explained as Verin needing Rand alive at least until TG. Much more reasonable than this Black Ajah hunt.<br /><br />Irgain - This just shows how little a stilled woman cares about life. It has NOTHING to do with the Black Ajah.<br /><br />About Verin's acts: I don't want to drag this out too much, but I'll try to say how the actions you explain MORE likely can be connected to Tarmon Gaidon / Rand than to a Black Ajah hunt.<br /><br />Dark Prophecies - Of course, this would be even more easily explained if she cared about Tarmon Gaidon and it's outcome...<br /><br />Siuan and Moiriane. Now, the 20 years most likely has more to do with the fact that Moiriane and Siuan has actually only been active with their plans about 20 years. It would have been impossible for Verin to spot them earlier. Again, it's more likely she would have suspected them , if her own research were roughly in the same direction. Siuan also says that she trusts Verin, because Verin has already shown she knows about Siuan and Moiraine's plan. She trusts Verin because she HAS to.<br /><br />Well, Tarmon Gaidon does have to do with the Shadow and Verin IS Brown. NOTHING in this sentence can give any indication to a Black Ajah hunt.<br /><br />The young man incident - We simply know too little of this situation to be able to say anything. Verin is an Aes Sedai and therefore most men are suspicious of her. While darkfriend is one possibility, we have no way of knowing what Verin had put her fingers in, to provoke this young man into trying to kill her. Without more, this does neither support your nor my theory. It's simply without relevance.<br /><br />Secrecy - I have said it before and I say it again. Verin is the smartest AS around. She would know that being careful is VERY important. It's simply her personality. She does what serves her needs, and as long as people see you as harmless, it's easier to get them doing what you want. See it like this: If a Brown AS were manipulationg people, that's the way she would do it. But wait a minute, Verin IS Brown and she IS manipulative... Case closed.<br />You are correct in saying she is up to something. But that is in fact no arguement for your point. Remeber that she uses her technique against Rand too. With your reasoning, that would mean she is up to something with RAND, but you deny that she is. Your point remains weak.<br /><br />Verin not surprised - Well, again this seems more a personality trait than being because of some mysterious goal of hers. She is like the Borderlanders: She knows that if one is surprised too often, it will eventually mean you miss what is important. Verin never does.<br /><br />People need symbols - This again is actually more reasonable if she thinks about Rand, the Dragon, than the White Tower. Nothing in these books are more of a symbol than the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />Her compulsion - Well, again her compulsion is more easily explained by her wanting Rand to live through Tarmon Gaidon. Her lack of surprise of finding Elza being BA is more easily explained by her NOT finding out Elza was black, simply because she DIDN'T CARE. This is actually something talking AGAINST your thesis, not for it. She would have done SOMETHING if she found out Elza was black, but she didn't becuase that was NOT HER GOAL!<br /><br />Cadsuane - You say it yourself: &quot;She has to be sure about Cadsuane since she is to advice the Dragon Reborn&quot;. If Verin didn't care about Rand, why would that bother her? And if it was Black Ajah she was afraid Cadsuane was, what would have conviced her Cadsuane was not? In fact, all of that conversation makes much more sense if Verin cares about the Dragon Reborn (already knowing, or even not caring whether Cadsuane is Black), than Verin being a Black Ajah hunter.<br /><br />Far Madding - It's very unlikely it was only 20 years ago Verin was exiled. She would never dare come back in that case. It's more reasonable she was exiled along with her lates &quot;great mistake&quot; 71 years ago. Therefore this point is moot.<br /><br />Verin the superior - Now you have started to look like this as Verin does. Everyone can be used. Many sisters would kill to be as clever as Verin and we have seen many bad attempts. But Verin is simply the best. She does not only want to use everyone, she actually does. Whatever she does, which therefore not speaks in favour of any Black Ajah hunt.<br /><br />Verin in the clouds - Again and again this point comes up. It has nothing to do with any Black Ajah hunt. Verin would do the same since she is a Manipulative Brown (unusual as they are), WHATEVER her agenda. Even if her goal was to find the Holy Grail, she would act as she does. It's simply Verin.<br /><br />Black Ajah Info - This is actually as close to an argument you have come as yet. Verin does seem to be hiding info. It's just not easy to understand why. On the other hand, this could just as well indicate that she doesn't care enough to dig deep. Since all this was a trap for Egwene and the likes, the BA and Mesaana has probably gone to lengths to cover up anything of real use.<br /><br />Verin has seen a lot more than most sisters - Well, maybe she has. This is part of Verin the mysterious, and we still don't know exactly how she has seen all this. But that is as hard to know whatever Verin has been doing for the last 70 years. Since we don't know, it isn't an argument. I do think Verin had seen herself turn to the Shadow though, and that is what made her say what she did (this has nothing to do with your argument, just something that just struck me).<br /><br />From this point the speculation is so up in the air, that I simply don't feel like countering it. With that much leeway ANYTHING could be possible. I'm pretty certain her exile from Far Madding would be her latest mistake and that no Black sister had used T'A'R more than non-blacks until Mesaana or someone showed them how. The Black Amyrlin could very well have been someone on Verin's side, but of course that would be true whatever Verin's plan is. <br /><br />Elaida never hired any Black Ajah hunters. She wanted to show that Alviarin helped the Salidar Aes Sedai run away. Elaid doesn't even BELIEVE in the BA and if Alviarin is descovered as such, it will only be a pleasent surprise for Elaida.<br /><br />The rest of your argument is quite true (not all, but some), but it does in no way mean Verin hunts BA. In fact, before this thread I thought you might have a point, but it's now quite evident that there is no point. Not because you haven't tried your best, but simply because there are no evidence to find. I don't know exactly what Verin does and what her great plan is, but by now it is pretty clear it does NOT have to do with the Black Ajah in more than a possibly tangential way. She is not a Black Ajah hunter, although we will not know exactly what she IS, until Robert Jordan tells us.<br /><br />If you still believe your own theory, I'm very willing to discuss it, because I don't think it's even close to possible. It simply does not make sense.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 17:42:24
subject: <b>I will have a long counter argument....</b>
body:
just not yet. Its not that I cant think of anything, just that it will take me a long time typing up all the reasons why I think you are wrong. I think that I maybe am not very clear because you seem to have missed all the points I was trying to make as well as misinterpreting some completely. I will take you reasons and reply soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 10:41:34
subject: <b>Aim for your counter-arguments</b>
body:
I understand that my response to your original theory would take quite a long message to counter. I just want you to concentrate on three things that I think you haven't managed as yet:<br /><br />1) Show that Verin is NOT ONLY an intelligent Aes Sedai that believes in the Black Ajah, but ALSO one actually hunting the Black Ajah.<br /><br />This distinction is VERY important. To acknowledge the Black Ajah is not the same thing as hunting them. By now we have only seen Elaida actually being sure there is no Black Ajah. There is no reason to think Verin wouldn't believe in them, but that is not the same as hunting them.<br /><br />2) Show that the &quot;mysterious and secretive ways&quot; of Verin (which I don't deny exist) actually is something that has come from a Black Ajah hunt. As far as I can see, this is a persoanlity trait of Verin and it's there all the time, whatever she does or plans, even when it seems unlikely that her actions are Black Ajah related. It seems to be part of her by now, and since her BIG PLAN started only 70 years ago, when she already had lived for even more than those 70 years, it seems unlikely she would have changed her way of acting / thinking, just because of that Big Plan. <br /><br />3) Show, for every point you use to argue your theory, that the interpretation indicating the Black Ajah hunt, is more probable / reasonable, than the best interpretation of the same events indicating some Rand related theory.<br /><br />Remember also, that my aim here is not to argue that Verin does not hunt Black Ajah. Maybe she is. My aim is to show that, whether or not she hunts the Black Ajah, there are, judging by the first 9 books, still nothing strongly indicating such a hunt, or even making such a hunt the best explanation of her actions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-06 18:00:39
subject: <b>OK, here is my attempt</b>
body:
I appreciate you being concise in your last message because it spells out very plainly your point. I will attempt to make a reply based on those three necessities.<br /><br />Verin's belief in the Black Ajah is apparent. She specifically mentions the existence of 'evil' in the WT, she knows what Katerine's allegiances are and her acceptance that there are those willing to destroy the Tower despite her views of the Tower being a fundamental institution and disapproving of others breaking of Tower Law. She is aware of the Black Ajah but it comes as no big surprise to her.<br /><br />What is more is that she says that she 'always' expects danger in the WT. This 'always' means a number of years. At the time she was only just returning from Falme and the news of the Black Ajah has only just reached her through Moiraine. Surely her opinion of the Tower would have become much more wary, unless she had already known about the Black Ajah for some time.<br /><br />And to me this does seem the most likely explanation of danger. The White Tower is meant to be a place where Aes Sedai rule supreme and so it is obvious that the danger comes from other Aes Sedai. Schemes and plotting are rife, but it is possible to just not get involved. Aes Sedai tricks will not work on other Aes Sedai and especially not Verin. In this respect Verin should have nothing to worry about, and they might be devious but not dangerous. <br /><br />Now for why she is hunting the Black Ajah. Firstly you will agree that she has seen a LOT more than your average Aes Sedai and also that a lot of this involves the Shadow in one way or another. Now your other explanation is the only valid one that covers this BUT I think that her hunting the Black Ajah is the more probable of the two. If her cause was to limit the effects of TG then where does the Shadow fit in up till now? And also this doesn't explain how she could have planned for this 70 years ago. What could she actually do to affect anything that far back? And how would she know she would even live that long? It can be explained, certainly, but not easily, whereas her hunting the Black Ajah has no such time restrictions or constraints.<br /><br />Secondly I think the links between the BA and TAR are very strong. All the terangreal stolen were to do with TAR in some way or another....and most inportantly most were marked 'use unknown'. If they stole them to hide their tracks it just points to them since their only lin is that they were studied by a Dreamer. The could have laid hidden forever and noone would even consider it. Why would anyone search through the hoardes of unknown terangreal not even knowing what they were looking for? The last dreamer was nearly 500 years ago and that would probably be the LAST thing anyone tracing their tracks would think of. <br /><br />From other books we know that they have used TAR but how long have they been doing this? The key is that they squeezed the Amylin like a bunch of grapes and made it look like she died in her sleep. This is an almost classic case of TAR. There is no other way that this could be done. This was twenty years ago, so it is safe to say that the BA know about TAR. Also we know hat Corianin's notes contain something dangerous. Whether Corianin was Black herself or discovered the Black Ajah working in TAR. Just because she is Black is no reason not to write her finding down if she thought it was hidden....but if you are looking for the more likely it would be that she found out the BA herself. <br /><br />Who taught them to use it and why? It is perfectly reasonable that Ishamael could have told them how to use it. Males might not be able to work it but he could tell them how it worked. Your theory is that they learnt how to use them after they fled the Tower, but the only person that could have taught them to is Belal, another male. Either way it is possible that they could have been described how to use it by a male. Why do they use it? Well why do they use it now? To spy on people, to have meetings, to assassinate people&#8230;lots of reasons. <br /><br />So now that I have hopefully linked TAR with the Black Ajah, that now links Verin with the Black Ajah. And if you add that scar Verin has into the equation then it becomes more likely that she would have met someone of the Black Ajah. She never tells Egwene how she got it&#8230;if it were something else she would have said. You say that if she met up with a Black Sister then she would be dead. This is far from a given. Other sisters have survived attacks by the Black Ajah and not yet been killed. Personally I like to think that this is her serious mistake that triggered her cause. I touch on this in the last part of my theory, and explain why it would be plausible.<br /><br />Thirdly, she never said that sisters with Warders were easier to Compel. That was something that I included. I was trying to show that the fact she was looking for Black Sisters was the only reason for this priority because Warder bonds can be dulled and she would have to do all the sisters eventually. No sense in leaving all the bonded ones till last, there are too many of them. Also this shows that her cause is something other than helping the Dragon Reborn or planning for Tarmon Gai&#8217;don. I know that it is a high priority for her, but she has others and I don&#8217;t believe that it is her plan. Logically if she were planning on either of the other causes she would pick a sister with Warders to compel. That would be far more useful for Tarmon Gai&#8217;don and much more trustworthy than a sister without. It would make Rand far safer and also less suspicious. Twelve Aes Sedai are far harder to trust than three Aes Sedai with six Warders. The most likely explanation is that of the Black Ajah. <br /><br />Additionally I find it very hard to believe that she would have missed finding out that Elza was Black. She asked them all why they thought that he should be punished. This was a major Black Ajah goal, she wouldn&#8217;t have skipped it, and also she probably would have referred to the Great Lord in her explanations and referring to TG. I have given plenty of reasons why Verin would NOT expose any Black Sisters, and indeed it seems to me that anyone with the cause of monitoring the BA would be wise not to expose them.<br /><br />Finally, the matter of Verin&#8217;s mysteriousness. You say that this is because of her intelligence and not because of her cause. I say that my explanation is more probable again. Most of Verin&#8217;s suspicion is directed at other sisters and she makes a point of appearing inconspicuous. If this is her simply being cautious then she is bordering on extreme paranoia. Why does she not reveal her intentions to Moiraine, Suian or Cadsuane? Surely if her cause were about Tarmon Gai&#8217;don or anything to do with Rand she would have told them. She does trust them and they first two trust her with their lives. Why would she go through the bother to use Compulsion on near strangers when she could team up with someone that is definitely on her side? Then again these actions are more easily explained by the BA. It is HER cause and has nothing to do with the others. She most definitely wouldn&#8217;t tell Cadsuane since Cadsuane wants to uproot the BA completely, something that would cause a lot of bloodshed. A lone hunter is much more efficient and undetectable.<br /><br />I probably have missed a lot there but if you reply then I will be willing to discuss this more. I have lots more to say. Anyway, thanks for making me explain myself and I do agree with you that there isnt much to work on. What I say is there is enough to discount the other theories and leave mine the most likely. There are points against the other theories, but the only thing against her hunting the Black Ajah is that we need more info. I think that in the 9 books so far it would explain most things about her but as you say until someone actually says it there isnt enough to convince people totally. The way I see it is if I eliminate the other theories beyond doubt we will know where to look.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 13:48:33
subject: <b>About Blacks in TAR (answer to Moridin2000)</b>
body:
It' still a lot to answer to, so I'll take this one step at a time. My first point is to show how it simply does not make sense to think the Black AJah have used the TAR ter'angreals for any longer than roughly the time they have been out of th Tower. If this falls, one of your main pillars fall since you have tried to link several events to Blacks using TAR years ago. Rereading my first post, I see I already brought most of these issues up, but it seems you chose to ignore them. I'll therefore do it again, in some detail.<br /><br />Your goal must be to present a working theory on how things have made the Blacks use these ter'angreal for all these years etc. I will also present my own theroy, which happens to have more written support. Since I don't know exactly how you mean all of this would have happened, I will ask you questions to answer, when I am not able to think of it myself.<br /><br />Now.<br /><br />Your theory must look something like this:<br />At some time in the past, the Black Ajah would have to have learned how to use the dream ter'angreals. Someone must have taught them how to use them and showed exactly which ones to use. There seems to be two possible ways this could have happened (of course, this is your theory, and I don't believe it for one second). Remember that the Black Ajah has not existed all the way back to AoL, so the knowledge of the ter'angreals almost certainly was lost, or would have been universal in the Tower, not only among the Black sisters. Either a) or b) would have to be chosen:<br /><br />a) Ishamael, who was the only Forsaken not fully bound to the Bore, could have decided he wanted the Black Ajah to find the dream ter'angreals and learn how to use them. In this theory, you would probably have to think that Corianin found out about Black sisters in TAR, and therefore this would have to have happened more than 400 years ago. The first question you will have to answer is this:<br /><br />1a) WHY would Ishamael teach the Black Ajah about the dream ter'angreal?<br /><br />Ishamael seems not to have any great interest in the &quot;half-trained children&quot; and it's unlikely he would teach them anything unless necessary. It's also doubtful he really could, since he was still &quot;half-bound&quot; and we don't know exactly when he first was assigned to the Tower. He also is a male channeler, and while a female channeler could show how to use the ter'angreal very easily by simply showing the weaves to put into them, a male channeler would not have it quite that easily. On top of this, we have actually not seen Ishamael / Moridin use TAR much so my guess is his general interest would be elsewhere. The next question is therefore<br /><br />1ab) HOW could Ishamael teach the Black Ajah about the dream ter'angreal?<br /><br />b) This is the other alternative you could choose.<br />Corianin, being the last dreamer, could have been Black Ajah, managed to find out how the dream ter'angreal works, and then present them to her fellow Blacks. In this scenario, there is another question that easily arises:<br /><br />1b) What indicates Corianin being Black?<br /><br />We have absolutely NOTHING that points to this. Quite the contrary to what you say, the Blacks have shown an amazing secrecy in all of their business so far. Any black only knows one or two others, and even in their meetings, which are few and only for the top crop, they have sealed identities. They have three Oaths that prevent them saying anything that could point to the Black Ajah. They also have a quite apparent punishment system, so that every Black sister is aware how they may end up in case they do something stupid. The most probable alternative is that it would not, because of the Oaths she has taken, even be possible for Corianin to make any comments in a letter pointing to herself being Black. Even if it were possible, it would be in her interest to never let anything that could be found mention the Black Ajah. And thirdly, if those comments actually indicated Corianin being Black, Verin would not even have considered giving them to Egwene. The only conclusion is that whether or not Corianin was black, nothing in that letter could reasonably indicate such a thing, and therefore simply no evidence exists pointing towards her being Back.<br /><br />If you have any other suggestion, you might instead answer this more generic question:<br /><br />1) Who taught the Blacks which ter&#8217;angreals were dream ter&#8217;angreals and who taught them how to use them. When did it happen?<br /><br />----------------<br /><br />OK, I assume you now have chosen one of the alternatives, all of them improbable. There now exists more trouble, whichever you have chosen, so I'll go on with this. <br /><br />The next problem is that IF the Black Ajah had actually used these ter&#8217;angreals for all these years (at the very least 20 years, possibly more), why don&#8217;t we have anything indicating that the ter&#8217;angreals have ever left the store room. We know that the last one studying them was Corianin, almost 400 years ago, so therefore none have taken them out of the store room in a &#8220;legal&#8221; way at least. Nothing indicates that any illegal way would have been used either, since if it had (and it would have been used quite frequently if the Black Ajah actually used the ter&#8217;angreal to any extent), it wouldn&#8217;t make sense for the sisters to break in when they took off and by that make it obvious they had stolen the ter&#8217;angreals. The Tear trap could have been easily set up without making it obvious that the dream ter&#8217;angreals had been stolen and therefore the only possible conclusion is this: The ter&#8217;angreals had never left the storeroom before the breakout. If you disagree, answer these question:<br /><br />2) How did the Black Ajah use ter&#8217;angreals locked into the store room for all these years.<br />3) Why would they break into that storeroom to retrieve them, if they had a better way of getting them.<br /><br />If Ishamael taught about the ter&#8217;angreals, he would have done it out of necessity, and it would be strange if that didn&#8217;t mean that some serious teaching was going on. If Corianin started the use of the ter&#8217;angreals, the current Blacks must have learned from earlier Blacks, since Corianin died 400 years ago. Therefore, to have any Blacks apt in using them for the last 20 years or so, they MUST have been available.<br /><br />If you disagree that any learning had even taken place, the next question you must answer is this. <br /><br />4) With your theory, WHY would the 13 Blacks take the ter&#8217;angreals with them, unless they knew what to do with them?<br /><br />*:*:*:*::::*:*:::*:<br /><br />As a last step, I&#8217;ll come to your only actual argument for the long-time usage of dream ter&#8217;angreals, namely the death of an Amyrlin. You actually say that TAR is the only possible way to have her killed. That&#8217;s ridiculous. I think I must challenge your interpretation quite thoroughly this time. What do we know? We know from Winter&#8217;s heart, that Chesmal managed to put Tarna to the question. That is, some sort of interrogation. Most probably this interrogation is what is referred to as &#8220;squeezing her like a bunch of grapes&#8221;, which doesn&#8217;t mean that her death was the first and most important result, but that every scrap of information and resistence in Tarna, by use of very hardcore torture, was taken out of her. If you disagree with this you must answer this:<br /><br />5) Why would anyone think someone &#8220;squeezed like a bunch of grapes&#8221; would have died a natural death in their sleep?<br /><br />Unless you can answer that, the conclusion is that after this rough torture (or as a part of it), Tarna was killed in a way that made it look like she died in her sleep. You say this was apparently made in TAR. The next question is therefore:<br /><br />6) Exactly HOW was Tarna killed by the usage of TAR?<br /><br />Before you answer this, I must tell you that we have actually NEVER seen this happen. I&#8217;ll explain my problem with this view: Tarna was NOT black, and therefore did not know anything about TAR or had used the ter&#8217;angreals (again, I don&#8217;t think any Black sister had either, but this is for the argument). We know that it is not possible to kill someone awake, when in TAR. We also know that ordinary dreaming people do NOT come to TAR at all. The conclusion is that Tarna must have been FORCED to TAR, which does not make any sense. We haven&#8217;t seen it done and there seems to be no reason to do it. If you see one, tell me:<br /><br />7) WHY would the Blacks use TAR to kill this Amyrlin?<br /><br />There are actually TWO better and more probable ways that could have been used to produce the correct effect. Either Tarna was killed using some kind of drug, or she was killed using the One Power. Both is as possible, but the former is less probable, since the Aes Sedai tend to know very little about drugs. We know for sure though, that some Black Ajah members has some ability in killing using the One Power (as Liandrin muses about Chesmal and how expertise in healing seems to make a good OP killer) and therefore it&#8217;s also probable they use this ability as soon as it&#8217;s possible, to get some training. To stop ones heart with the One Power, which I believe was mentioned, seems to be a perfect way of making someone &#8220;die in her sleep&#8221;. We have also seen the Shaidos kill with the One Power in such a way that very little blood was shed which should show the wide range of usage, OP killing can have. It&#8217;s the ONLY obvious way Tarna could have been killed.<br /><br />--<br /><br />I now think I have shown quite significantly how your theory simply does not make sense. To show that my own theory not only makes sense, but is hard to dispute, I&#8217;ll present it. I already did so in my initial response, but you seem to have missed that somehow...<br /><br />Firstly, some Forsaken were apparently behind the Black Ajah 13 leaving the White Tower. I have no idea why you take only Bel&#8217;al as an example in your answer. Of course he is even less likely than Ishamael to have taught the Black Ajah anything. He would have been one of the brains behind the Tear trap though which was his reason to visit the Tower. I believe we actually have been told that Mesaana also was behind that. This does not necessarily mean she was behind the emptying of the storeroom / searching for ter&#8217;angreals. I believe the most probable one to do this would be Lanfear, since it&#8217;s actually said she saw TAR as her own playground. This would give us the only obvious explanation (as you like to call it) why the ter&#8217;angreals were taken out of the storeroom at all &#8211; Namely that (and this I said before and you ignored it completely) she would not want any non-black Aes Sedai stumble upon her in TAR Lanfear is also the Forsaken who (possible along with Mesaana) should have the most knowledge about ter&#8217;angreal, and therefore it would be quite easy for her to locate the correct ones in the storeroom. The reason they broke into the store room at all, was because that was the only way they could find to get in there. I would also like to remind you that Lanfear has been in the Tower and she has been seen with Ishamael (in TAR, by Perrin), so it&#8217;s nothing improbable about this. For Lanfear to actually teach how to use the ter&#8217;angreals would also, as I said above, be very easy by simply showing what to do, and it would probably have been done at the same time as she showed what ter&#8217;angreals should be taken. This would NOT mean she taught them anything about how to behave in TAR though. Therefore this theory is much more coherent with the fact that the few times we have seen the Blacks in TAR, they have seemed much less apt in TAR than Nynaeve and the Egwene, despite, if your theory was correct, having much more knowledge and training in and about it. In WH we even see them talking about how they had decided to stop using the ter&#8217;angreals, just because they were worse than the WunderGirls in it and it therefore would be dangerous. That is not a reaction on par with several hundred years of usage...<br /><br />&#8216;&#8217;&#8217;::::::::<br /><br />So, I have shown a working theory and I have shown your theory is not working. If you still disagree with me, you&#8217;ll have to first answer the questions I pose (or if your theory on this is completely different, present that one) and then explain, hopefully by the same kind of questions, why my own explanation, which seems so much easier and more coherent, in fact isn&#8217;t.<br /><br />There are many more problems about other issues in your post, but since I have decided to take them one at a time, this is the first one you&#8217;ll have to answer to.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 14:05:30
subject: <b>Conjecture.</b>
body:
I have read all the arguments for and against Moridin's thoery only today. It took quite a while but I have a very good idea of all the points and I believe that Moridin's is the one with the least amount of conjecture, and therefore the most plausible.<br /><br />That is my humble opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Software Analyst <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's clean...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;You are taking your first step into a larger world.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-30 07:38:21
subject: <b>bit slow</b>
body:
i think in 70 years verin may have come up with the idea of using the oath rod to hunt the black ajah a bit more easily, then what you seem to be suggesting she is doing<br /><br />she doesn't seem to be that slow, she would have figured black sisters can lie and would have made the same conclusions as the sisters did who came up with the idea to use the oath rod


created: 2001-08-30 11:14:45
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
She might have already, we don't know. But it is important to realise that she doesn't have Sitter's rights to borrow any ter'angreal she wants. She would just attract unwanted suspicion and it would be too impractical for her to break in.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 11:32:37
subject: <b>There is more in the Message Board...</b>
body:
To Amp_Ashaman<br /><br />Since my goal has been to refute evidence rather than propagating a theory of my own, I'm surprised you found much conjecture at all. I only tried to show the Theory presented was very speculative and less probable than alternatives. <br /><br />Anyhow: This is not all. I stopped debating every issue opened, simply because the posts became too long and tedious to write (and not because I changed my mind), but me and Moridin DID go a couple of more rounds regarding the important dream ter'angreal question. It's found on the Message Board as &quot;The Black Ajah Connection at <br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/messageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=48856<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 20:41:08
subject: <b>Ah Ha!</b>
body:
any thing else happen 70 years ago of any importance?<br /><br />the 2 sisters (the brown and the green) started writing the history of the third age (brown and green, Verin and Cadsuana's ajahs!)<br /><br />and 2, the last Aes Sedai who really studied ter'angeral was burnt out (and more than likely became the one who is no longer, Stella Anna)  <br /><br />Can we find a way to work these two facts in the Verin theory?


created: 2001-10-28 20:48:10
subject: <b>cont.</b>
body:
This is cut and  pasted from the WOTFAQ,  I think we can work in somethingIt has been suggested that Anan is Martine Janata, the AS Vandene mentions when she warns Elayne about the dangers of fooling around with ter'angreal. <br /><br />&quot;She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal... She did it for forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl.... Then one day, Martine's maid found her unconscious on the floor of her sitting room. Burned out.... That was more than twenty-five years ago.... She vanished once she was well enough to slip out of the Tower.&quot; [TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 75-76] <br />The timing makes this possible, as explained by John Hamby: <br />[ACOS: 24, The Kin, 405] Setalle gave birth to her first child more than twenty years ago. <br />Martine Janata was raised to the shawl over sixty-five years ago <br />She was burnt out over twenty-five years ago and left the Tower <br />Garenia aka Zarya Alkaese ran away from the Tower seventy years ago [TPOD: 28, Crimsonthorn, 542] <br />So Martine was made a sister well over sixty-five years ago. Garenia ran away seventy years ago. Setalle recognized Garenia as Zarya though she certainly never considered Garenia to be Zarya. Also it is a bit too pat that we get the story of one such sister that provides us with a chronology that fits the criteria to be Setalle Anan. <br /><br />Super!!<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-19 05:27:46
subject: <b>So what was she doing in the Two Rivers?</b>
body:
I've read all the arguments and counter-arguments regarding Verin being or not being a Black Ajah hunter and my brain has now turned to fluff...<br /><br />I'm pretty certain she's a 'good guy' - but with her own agenda, whether that's hunting the BA or not, I'm not sure.<br /><br />One question I did want to ask Moridin regards the time she spent in the Two Rivers with Alanna. I can't really see what this would have to do with a hunt for the BA, which she seems to infer has been her main raison d'etre for the past seventy years, or to do with the DR. I always figured that it was to fetch all the girls (Bode and the others) that she'd heard of from Moiraine ... and it made me think that her 'plan' had something to do with trying to repair the damage done to the Tower by the degradation of the strength of channelers over the years. Maybe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just wanted to hear your thoughts on her time there!<br /><br />J <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-03 20:06:40
subject: <b>So long since I wrote the theory...</b>
body:
..that I can't remember what I thought about that. I think that she likely was just following orders there. Usually if she isn't she doesn't have her Warder with her. Siuan probably sent her. I probably should thik of something better, but that's what I think here and now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 00:26:11
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
this is a bit long to be realy readable, but the stuff i did read sounded plausable. i'm guessing a lot of research went into this. not a bad idea, BA hunter.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />kepper of the truth  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:54:48
subject: <b>Excellent!</b>
body:
Excellent theory, composition, research, blah blah blah...<br />Seriously, that's great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I amuse myself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 23:56:13
subject: <b>Argh!</b>
body:
Do tell me I am missing something, but...<br /><br />After reading this entire theory I scanned the posts.  I am surprised that *nobody* came to the same conclusion I did concerning this theory.  It seemed starkly obvious to me, which probably means it has been mentioned before or disproven.  Try it: <br /><br />Verin is *a member of* the Black Ajah.  Aversion to going against the Oaths, the dream TA she had, &quot;We all must face the Dark One in one way or another&quot;, &quot;a pity she had no way of making sure Katerine met with a fatal accident&quot;, &quot;Seventy-one years had passed since she made her last serious mistake&quot;, 'So if somehow Verin found out what the Black Ajah were after it would be very easy to know what their cause was' - she would have known easily if the Blacks were given orders concerning the two, 'There are a number of strange incidents that suggest that Verin may be familiar with Shadowspawn'.  <br /><br />There are more, reread the thing yourself and think about it.  Is there any concrete proof that Verin is not simultaneously Black and fighting for the Light?  I can't believe she is a true black, I agree with this theory I'm posting under.  Perhaps she made the mistake of joining the Black (71 years ago,) and then came up with her plan (70 years ago) to fight them from the inside.


created: 2002-09-18 13:53:41
subject:
<b>Thank you for such a fantastic writeup on my favorite character <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
That was an incredible amount to read, but I enjoyed every word of it.  Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~AEternal</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-10 22:01:15
subject: <b>A THOUGHT ABOUT ELZA</b>
body:
I read the teoury and the arguments and like the amout of thought put into it. Personally im not sure as to wether or not it is true but if its important it will surface in the books to come. Im unsure if any one may have already thought of this but i belive that if verin was able to root out the fact that elza is black ajah using her form of compulsion then the only reason she is near rand is because of that compulsion. Elza even seemed suprised at how clear the situation had become that the DR must se the last battle and even the DO would accept her killing or atempting to kill som of the chosen not a typical veiw among black sisters. ALso the fact that she was so emotional about it when telling it to Rand suggests that compulsion may have been involved, we have seen it before. <br />Its just a thought but it would explain why shes there and why verin hasnt exposed her. not to mention the fact that to quote Elayne &quot; a spy is your enemies tool until you know them then they are your tool&quot;.  <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 10:14:40
subject: <b>Verin</b>
body:
Some things in the theory i really agree with but there is a lot of speculatory evidence. It was a tad to long, you could say that you said as little as possible with as many words you could, but it is a sound theory which i hope mr jordan will verify sometime...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-10 13:20:37
subject: <b>Sounds right.</b>
body:
Sounds extremely believable. When I read about Verin now I presume this is true. Great stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic,Arial"><font color="#FF0000">F</font><font color="#FF1500">l</font><font color="#FF2B00">i</font><font color="#FF4000">p</font><font color="#FF5500">p</font><font color="#FF6B00">i</font><font color="#FF8000">t</font><font color="#FF8000"> </font><font color="#FF9200">~</font><font color="#FFA400"> </font><font color="#FFB600">F</font><font color="#FFC900">l</font><font color="#FFDB00">i</font><font color="#FFED00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">i</font><font color="#DBFF00">t</font><font color="#B6FF00"> </font><font color="#92FF00">~</font><font color="#6DFF00"> </font><font color="#49FF00">F</font><font color="#24FF00">l</font><font color="#00FF00">i</font><font color="#00FF00">p</font><font color="#01DB24">p</font><font color="#00B649">i</font><font color="#00926D">t</font><font color="#006D92"> </font><font color="#0049B6">~</font><font color="#0024DB"> </font><font color="#0000FF">F</font><font color="#0000FF">l</font><font color="#2400FF">i</font><font color="#4900FF">p</font><font color="#6D00FF">p</font><font color="#9200FF">i</font><font color="#B600FF">t</font><font color="#DB00FF"> </font><font color="#FF00FF">~</font><font color="#FF00FF"> </font><font color="#ED00ED">F</font><font color="#DA01DA">l</font><font color="#C800C8">i</font><font color="#B600B6">p</font><font color="#A400A4">p</font><font color="#910091">i</font><font color="#7F007F">t</font></font><br /><font face="Century Gothic,Arial">History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it. ~ <i>Winston Churchill</i></font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-15 16:22:33
subject: <b>Urien and Verin</b>
body:
2. Verin:<br />When they meet the first Aiel in the series, Urien, he says that Verin &quot;has the looks of a Wise One&quot;... now we know that the Wise Ones have their own Ter'Angreal in Rhuidean... where they are faced with the past and origin of the Aiel, it is very painful for them and some could scream at every step until they are out. <br /><br />This is what &quot;marks&quot; them. Verin is curious about this Angreal and wants to know more about it. So she did not use THAT Angreal, but a similar one with the same consequences.<br /><br />That's what I first thought. But maybe 70 years of hunting the Black Ajah would leave a similar &quot;mark&quot;.


created: 2004-12-15 16:30:42
subject: <b>One more point: capturing a Forsaken</b>
body:
In book 9, Verin meets a female Channeler, I think it was Lanfear but I'm not sure... anyway at a certain time she is thinking it might prove interesting to shield and capture one of the Forsaken. But then she gets attacked and has to fight for her life, when she encountered the strongest, or 2nd strongest female Forsaken.<br /><br />She certainly wouldn't have wanted to capture a Forsaken if she was Black Ajah. However, she would know or suspect some of the BA are commended by one, or more, of the Forsaken. Thus she thinks she could put them to the question, maybe using her compulsion trick on them.<br /><br />I think you're right: Verin is a cold-blooded BA hunter.


created: 2006-01-26 21:48:51
subject: <b>Just a few comments</b>
body:
I don't know why I bother to comment on theoryes that have seen no developement in the last 13 months, but hey. I thought I saw something looking like incorrect information, and had to check if I was right. One of the things I'll look at has been commented on already, I think, but I'd already written it when I found out, and it seems like such a waste not to post it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Here we go:<br /><br />kenco:<br />&#8220;'Alanna&#8217;s reaction to the Rebels- Alanna can&#8217;t conceive that anyone would go against the Tower. However, this seems no surprise to Verin. She seems quite willing to accept that there are those in the Tower that would try to destroy it. The Black Ajah.'<br /><br />No, not at all necessarily. According to Suian / Egwene in book 7, the Tower has been broken before, but hidden in the secret records. Verin is old, Brown ajah and a fairly high standing AS, therefore she has had lots of time to search through the library for not so well hidden sources, and she could easily find this. Also, Alanna had just lost her Warder and her emotions were seriously playing up. Verin probably had the natural reaction.&#8221;<br /><br />The secret volumes in the Tower Library are only open for Sitters, Keeper, and Amyrlin, if I&#8217;m not mistaken. As far as we know, Verin has held none of these offices. Of course, she may have stumbled across this information in some forgotten drawer, but we have as much evidence for this as we have for Verin being mother of the Creator.<br /><br />kenco:<br />&#8220;2) She has unsworn the Oaths. I think this is made rather clear from Book two. When she joins Rand's / Ingtar's party, she says &quot;Moiraine sent me, Lord Ingtar.&quot; Later on in the same book, when Moiraine finally meets up with Rand right at the end, she says &quot;I did not send Verin.&quot;<br /><br />(...)<br /><br />But in Verin, we have a complete contradiction. No wheedling out of it. No RJ error. She has unsowrn the Oaths, no doubt to complete her mission (whatever it is).&#8221;<br /><br />Disavowed her Oaths? And still kept her ageless look?<br />Also:<br />&quot;what Verin said <br />Submitted by the drewman reborn on 8/24/2002 1:29:21 AM <br />was to Intgar. Moiriane said she did not send Verin to shepard rand. Which she didn't. She sent her to watch over Intgar whom she knew was a Darkfriend.&#8221;<br />http://www.wotmania.com/blackboard.asp?TheoryID=165&amp;Category=Verin<br /><br />&quot;Verin's lie? <br />Submitted by Call_me_Tim on 5/22/2001 7:30:52 PM <br />I believe that RJ has stated quite clearly that the business of Verin telling Perrin that she was sent by Moiraine was a miswrite on his part, and not intended to be a lie of Verin's. It then follows that RJ's bother to state this endorses the concept that Verin has not clearly lied. I can find nothing else that she has said which could be a clear lie. Yes, she has many secrets, has a hidden past, and misdirects folks left and right, but that is the most common behavior of Aes Sedai if you take the entire story as a whole. When Aleis Barsala in Far Madding seeks her name, her answer is, &quot;All of you may call me Eadwina.&quot;, which isn't a lie. She wasn't directly asked her name, which makes the ruse even easier.&#8221;<br />http://www.wotmania.com/blackboard.asp?TheoryID=382&amp;Category=Verin<br /><br />I've not seen this before, so it could be bogus, but I thought it should be mentioned.<br /><br />Moridin_2000:<br />&#8220;Firstly you will agree that she has seen a LOT more than your average Aes Sedai and also that a lot of this involves the Shadow in one way or another.&#8221;<br /><br />Why should we agree with this claim? We have no way of knowing what the &#8220;average Aes Sedai&#8221; or Verin has seen &#8211; of things related to the Shadow, or to Sharamen, for that matter. Sure, she&#8217;s probably been around, but we don&#8217;t KNOW this. I.e. we have no way of KNOWING this. We may presume, or guess, or hope, but know? Nope.<br /><br />Moridin_2000:<br />&#8220;If her cause was to limit the effects of TG then where does the Shadow fit in up till now?&#8221;<br /><br />Well, the Shadow is supposed to be a major player in the Last Battle, and seeing as it was the Shadow that caused the most disastrous consequences of the Tarmon Gai&#8217;don of the Age of Legends, it seems probable that Verin would want to limit their influence on the world. If this means chasing Black Ajah, or aiding the Dragon Reborn, or Stilling every channeler in the World to prevent them from going insane and Break the World, I don&#8217;t know, but it makes the Shadow fit in. Huntress of Black Ajah isn&#8217;t the only possible occupation for her.<br /><br />Moridin_2000:<br />&#8220;From other books we know that they have used TAR but how long have they been doing this? The key is that they squeezed the Amylin like a bunch of grapes and made it look like she died in her sleep. This is an almost classic case of TAR. There is no other way that this could be done.&#8221;<br /><br />You seem to be forgetting several small but relevant things here: We have seen numerous examples of people being hurt in TAR, and having wounds and such when they wake up. From Rand and the thorn in TEotW, to Verin&#8217;s old TAR wound which she shows to Egwene when giving her the stone ring ter&#8217;angreal. If the Amyrlin&#8217;d been &#8220;squeezed like a bunch of grapes&#8221;, even in TAR, her body would have looked it. Of course, they could have come up with some ingenious way of doing this, but we have no way of knowing -- &#8220;squeezing like a bunch of grapes&#8221; is a simile, a rhetorical expression, most likely used by the person saying it to imply that they got everything of value out of her before she died &#8211; meaning that they pumped her for information. Or that&#8217;s my interpretation, in any case...<br /><br />Moridin_2000:<br />&#8220;Then again these actions are more easily explained by the BA. It is HER cause and has nothing to do with the others.&#8221;<br /><br />Her cause? Nothing to do with the others? Aren&#8217;t the others Aes Sedai as well, and have interests in the well-being of the Tower as a consequence of this? Of course, you could be referring to what she herself believes, which is another matter entirely. If you do, ignore this.<br /><br />Finally, Moridin_2000, I have two quotes from the main theory, where you first use her apparent respect for the Oaths as an argument for her being a Black Ajah huntress, before just a few lines further down you go on to use her apparent disregard for Tower Law as an argument for her being a Black Ajah huntress:<br />&#8220;When Egwene breaks the Oaths by trying to scare away the Whitecloaks, Verin is extremely angry. She even speaks in capital letters &#8216;BE SILENT!&#8217; Obviously breaking the Oaths is anathema to her, she holds them in very high importance. This would fit in very well with a hatred for the Black Ajah.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;Breaking Tower Law- Her stolen angreal, the ring ter&#8217;angreal and her compulsion can all be explained by the fact that all Black Ajah hunters must break the rules slightly to carry out their cause. Whether she has special permission to do this or does it out of necessity is not clear.&#8221;<br /><br />Now, it can of course be argued that the Oaths and Tower Laws are two separate kinds of &#8220;legislation&#8221; -- however, the only practical difference, as far as I can see, is that the Oaths are imposed on the Aes Sedai physically, whereas it&#8217;s realistically left to the individual's conscience whether or not to follow Tower Law. They have sanctions against Lawbreakers, I presume, most likely in form of penances, exiles or similar, but the Oathbreakers -- non-Black Ajah oathbreakers, that is -- are not penalized, because officially, there&#8217;s no way to break the Oaths.<br /><br />This could however be ignored, if not for this:<br />&#8220;In The Shadow Rising Verin says to Perrin &#8216;people need symbols, don&#8217;t you&#8217;. While refers to the wolf flag, it shows that Verin believes that symbols are important. People need something to believe in. This would be the typical attitude of someone that hunts the Black Ajah. The reputation of the Tower has to be maintained, people need to have something to look up to.&#8221;<br /><br />Now, if the reputation of the Tower must be maintained, then one might suppose that breaking Tower Law is as severe a crime as breaking Oaths. Why?<br /><br />Because reputation primarily is hinged on behaviour, and your average Randlander does not make, or indeed know of this distinction. Judging from how the attitude most men we&#8217;ve seen has towards the Aes Sedai, I suppose it doesn&#8217;t matter much, but still, it&#8217;s not unreasonable to suppose that to laymen, using Compulsion to make people do things they would not otherwise have done is as serious a crime as using the One Power to make weapons.<br /><br />Not to mention that I am unable to follow your logic: How does it follow from her saying to Perrin, &#8220;people need symbols&#8221; (a descriptive statement) that she &#8220;believes symbols are important&#8221;? (a normative statement) That she observes that &quot;people need symbols&quot; is not the same as her saying that they are important to her: To her, they're just convenient tools. And how is faith in symbols typical of someone hunting the Black Ajah?<br /><br />There are many of these unfounded arguments in your theory (theories). A little too many, in fact. You did have some nice hypothesises here, but Jordan has been too modest when it comes to giving out details about Verin for it (them) to be validated. For now, it looks as if Yubi falsified it, or at least showed that it cannot, at this stage, be validated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Several palms short of an oasis.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 17:35:56
subject: <b>title?</b>
body:
wrong may I be, a while it has been since last did i read, believe I do that stolen again the horn was... Not sure when or by whom, padan fain once more was it? , perhaps ajah black darkfriend it was.


created: 2001-07-17 20:06:13
subject: <b>Yoda above is, why I not know</b>
body:
Yes, you certainly DO get involved in your theories...and I had to thumbs-down it because I think you got too specific in many cases and lost the evidence.  But I REALLY like the core theory that half the light of the world is the female Aes Sedai.  I admit I'd never thought of that.  I don't believe it, but I like it...continue to think laterally!<br /><br />But...I must argue your shame to &quot;fools&quot; who are or once called Berelain the DotNM.  It used to be that people didn't KNOW that Tuon was the daughter of the Nine Moons, indeed the evidence DID point to Berelain.  Up until Winter's Heart the theory was excellent.  Now, I believe that Tuon is the DotNM, but the theory is still quite valid, and discounting it is foolish.  Just me thinking laterally <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 21:54:25
subject: <b>Hey now.</b>
body:
Thanks for ruining the next few books for me.  Lol.  I thought it was a marvelous theory, really well thought out and very logical.  Good work.  <br /><br />


created: 2001-07-17 22:22:45
subject: <b>Good theory except the ravens</b>
body:
The ravens on the shoulders of mat was a viewing of min and she said that they were drawings of ravens on his shoulders. When the seeker of truth visited Egeananin for the first time she made him show his ravens which was described as meaning that the person that had them was the property of the crystal throne. With this in mind it is very likely that the ravens mean that Matrim is going to be the property of the crystal throne. Other than that I thought this was a great theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 01:29:25
subject: <b>Anthor reason mat will side with rand!!</b>
body:
I am one of the people who think mat will and is able to channel. Now at the begining when this theroy began to emerge it had very little behind it but k<br />ow it might just work!And it will go wel with your RAND/MAT Vs TOUN/EWENGE part of you theroy. RJ likes balance rand/ewenge were born with been able to channel, toun is a suldan so she can be taught to channel whereas know one knows for sure but some evidence to support he can:<br /><br />1 From memory he shivers whenever someones channeling near him but putsit down to the medalion.<br />2 His LUCK, In new spring the black ajah was hunting all the males had realy good luck because having good luck is one of the early signs that someone is channeling without them knowing about it, they found out the dragon had been reborn but had no idea how old the male they should look for.<br />3 His sister bode can channel, she was born with the gift. And since the ability to channel was dieing out because men where been gentiled and Aei sedai wheren't having kids as they might not be able to channel,it's about 90% certain that that been able to channel is genitic. So i'd say Mat was ethier born with the gift or can learn to channel like tuon(Since they are going to get marryed they should be able to live there WHOLE lives together..<br /><br />I'm sure there is more!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />SIde note: if it is Cadunsce's plan to make rand remmeder laugther and tears then wouldn't waking up in his home village be more towards this goal?? Rather than waking in the white tower and then been in a rage for the rest of the stay, Than again who knows An Aei Sedai might think a nice relaxing stay in the white tower might do wonders heck he won't even have to worry about channeling they'll have him under a 24/7 shield.....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2001-07-18 06:37:04
subject: <b>stuff</b>
body:
this is a great theory assuming the Seancan allow Tuon to keep her position. i think that she may have to become a 'rebel' of sorts when the seekers find out she left and with whom she did leave.<br /><br />blarg


created: 2001-07-18 10:23:50
subject: <b>Tuon can't channel, at least not for certain</b>
body:
I don't remember exactly, but I think there was a statement in <i>Winter's Heart</i> to the effect that Tuon trained <i>sul'dam</i>, but she could never sense anything when she held the leash herself.  In other words, she trains people on how to control <i>damane</i>, but cannot control them herself.<br /><br />I don't have my copy of <i>Winter's Heart</i> anywhere near me, or I'd double check the reference....<br /><br />If she cannot channel, it sort of blows a hole in parts of this theory.  I still like the core ideas, but some of the specifics no longer hold up.<br /><br />By the way--I think it's a great idea that Mat can channel, but I don't think it's the case.  He's just <i>ta'veren</i>, not able to sense the Source.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 14:26:21
subject: <b>light.......</b>
body:
i still cling to the theory that Mat will lose an eye, but your information does get me thinking<br /><br />In some other weird theory about Mat, it was theorized that he was really in love with Egwene. If you think of Egwene and Tuon as his Light in the World, it could be theorized that he would have to give up his affection for Egwene to Gawyn. <br /><br />Other Points<br /><br />1-on Mat's signet ring, the two birds are ravens. TWO ravens. Same as on his spear-from-AoL, same as the Seekers, AND ALSO THE SAME AS THE DEATCHWATCH GUARDS<br /><br />2-Mat proll wont fight the Seanchan at all with the Band. Him and Tuon most likely ' hit-it-off ' before they encounter more Seanchan, allowing her to step in and say he's her property or something. she might draw ravens on his shoulders to say hes a deatchwatch guard. he certainly has the skill with his AoL-spear, which would be even more proof to him being property of the Crystal Throne.<br /><br />3-MAT CANNOT CHANNEL. Which is good, because the One Power sucks. The three ta'evern are a tripod, and each supports with their own strengths. Perrin and Mat get theirs from the Two Rivers Old Blood, Perrin being a wolfbrother, and mat having the memories of countless soldiers ( which give him skill in battle, as well as skill with the Sea Folk and possible other cultures. Remember how he bullied that one Sea-Folk-Woman into an agreement, and used their terminology to give it more sting ). Rand gets his strengths from being the Dragon Reborn. Memories and Channeling. None of their powers will over-lap, so Mat wil never talk to wolfs, Perrin wont yell at the voice in his head, and Rand wont start speaking the Old Tongue fluently.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Slave<br />Poet<br />


created: 2001-07-18 21:50:02
subject: <b>Best theory I've seen yet!</b>
body:
That was great!  I espesially like the part about &quot;Hawkwing&quot; endorsing Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 20:41:04
subject: <b>Nice Job</b>
body:
I think that between the main theory and all the blackboard comments we've got something pretty close to the truth.  The two birds on the signet as ravens seems to fit, the ravens on the spear fit with the whole Seanchan connection, etc.  I really like the idea about Hawkwing supporting Rand's authority over the Seanchan.  <br />The evidence for Mat channeling is interesting but not conclusive.  I think that he can't, if only because he's wearing that medallion all the time, but also because his total antipathy towards the Aes Sedai (Rand included or not) plus the whole existence of the medallion points to him being a sort of anti-Pwer boy.<br />If Tuon CAN channel, and the Seanchan find this out, they may repudiate her altogether.  An interesting side point:  if Hawkwing tells the Seanchan to do something they really don't like, some of 'em probably won't.  Not only is this human but just look at the Aiel and how they reacted to Rand being the Car'a'carn.  Some liked it, some hated it.<br />One last note -- when you first proposed that Rand's current coma is his Avalon-like state, I had a serious &quot;yeah, but...&quot; moment until I thought that cleannsing the taint on the Power might be parallel to killing Mordred and removing the taint from England.  Plus, a lot of the stuff I've seen about Mordred emphasizes that he is Arthur's sin incarnate, through the whole incest thing; I see this as very nicely parallel to Rand's sins being caused by the taint. <br />Overall, nice job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 22:45:01
subject:
<b>I think I love you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
.....Well not quite but I am happy that a new theory about why its NOT an eye has come up.  It was quite long and as Your.Master pointed out I think it may have gotten too specific. But I do agree with many of the major points.  I do think Mat will be choosing sides most likely between the White and the Black and I like how you put all of your sybolism togeather.  The left eye and the Flame of Tar Valon especially.  I don't know if I know which side he'll chose and I also can't figure what exactly it is that he can do that would make a difference between such powerful people even if he does know them both.  My other doubt besides being able to understand how Mat can make this difference is how Rand will come to meet the new Amyrilyn.  I doubt very much that he will go to the tower willingly and aside from the personality of Cadusane I don't think Min(or perhaps Nynaeve) would allow them to take him to Tar Valon before he wakes up (if he's in a coma at all)<br />But in any case I also have some suspicion of Mat being able to learn to channel.  I have been reading my books over and that thought kept itching at me.  Maybe because its Mats personality but the only times I really remember the shivering being focused on is with Mat and Rand.  I can't remember any one else being more than wary.  But thats not really proof and I have no notion of what him being able to would really do for the story.<br />I also disagree with the whole Rand Therin or Lews al'Thor  It doesn't feel right like the eye doesn't feel right but I'll go find your theory and see if you can change my mind.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 14:55:45
subject: <b>my thoughts on Cadsuane, Blackcoats and sisters.</b>
body:
This theory is awsome and it makes alot of sense but I just thought I'd say something since you said you didn't like<br />the idea of Asha'man conforming to Aes'sedai authority.  I think Cadsuane's idea is for their to be alot of communication <br />and cooperation between both men and women because the original taint and breaking was caused because<br />men and women didn't work together and the end result were two factions with imperfect plans to defeat the shadow.<br />that's all I wanted to say, with both sides in unison there can be success where before the consequences were <br />dreadful.


created: 2001-07-25 05:12:34
subject: <b>More on the TWO birds</b>
body:
Along with the 2 birds i believe that in the description of his medalion the fox on it only has one eye visible its like slightly angled or something if i remember correctly it s in The shadow rising the Ruidean chapter.<br /><br />Thats all to help add tp speculation.<br />Squocka


created: 2001-07-25 07:25:04
subject: <b>raven dream</b>
body:
the two ravens in the dream were NOT tatoos, the landed on Mat's shoulder and sunk their talons in.  I don't think tatoos can do that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 01:49:05
subject: <b>re: Rathan</b>
body:
First off, great theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Second, as to Rathan's comment on the ravens sinking their talons into his shoulders...in order to tattoo someone, you need to pierce the skin with needles...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thrain (stillnoname.com)<br /><br />Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 18:26:45
subject: <b>Re: Rathan 2</b>
body:
Cf with Egwene's dreams of Rand before he went to Rhuidean, the dragons flapping and landing on his skin....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 09:52:19
subject: <b>Yes!</b>
body:
It is so true.  I especially liked how you linked alot of different prophecies together and came up with the most logical solution.


created: 2001-09-03 00:22:41
subject: <b>Mat's choice</b>
body:
I don't think Mat will choose Rand.  Remember way back when they first used the Portal Stone?  Mat came out and said to Rand &quot;I'll never betray you&quot; over and over?  That was some major foreshadowing there, I think.  Mat will probably not choose Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 01:33:52
subject: <b>erm, no <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
sorry, but i disagreed with the theory right when you started saying Rand's cleansing of saidin was the point where he effectively &quot;died&quot;. In my opinion the death of the dragon will NOT mean the death of Rand, rather the death of Lews Therin's embodiement in Rand, i.e, rand will cease to hear Lews Therin's voice anymore.This seemed to me to be a rather large hole in the theory. Sowee ;(


created: 2001-10-31 16:04:49
subject: <b>got me thinking...</b>
body:
Firstly, I agree with it not being Rand's death but Lews Therin's...though, I admit, that's more a hope thing.<br /><br />More to the point, Tuon had a damane beaten for telling her her future.  It's obvious from the way she responded to Mat that it was about him.  I assumed that it was that she'd marry him, but it never really sat right.  Tuon is too level headed to freak over that.  But...if Mat was going to lead her to undermine the entire structure of the Empire by accepting women, and MEN, who can channel?  That could have done it.  All in all, it adds credance.


created: 2001-12-04 17:14:59
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
There is one part of your theory with which I disagree: I think that Berelain is going to be proved to be one of Atur Hawkwing's direct descendants and this will tie her to Egwene.  Remember Min's view about Perrin, the falcon and the hawk? It should also help subdue the Whitecloaks, because I suspect Berelain and Galad become involved (again, one of Min's viewings).  If Berelain and Tuon are distantly related, this will effectively halt the Corenne and contribute to forging of new bonds.


created: 2001-12-06 10:12:15
subject: <b>Facinating</b>
body:
You've tied together some seemingly unrelated WOT lore into a cohesive, and very interesting theory.  I have only one comment, in regards to the viewing cited towards the end.<br /><br />The two ravens on Mat's shoulders obviously do sybolize Seanchan, but could it be more specific than that?  Seekers, who are the property of the Imperial Family, have ravens tatooed on their shoulders.  Maybe Mat is fated to become Tuon's property, at least for a while.  Or maybe he will help bring about the end of Seanchan slavery entirely!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Donor of $0.02<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-06 10:19:45
subject: <b>I am such a stupidhead!</b>
body:
Sorry for wasting FURTHER space, but I wanted to apologize for posting the previous without first reading other blackboard posts, which commented on the tatoo connection much more effectively that I.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Humble<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />Chagrined<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />Unbelievably Stupidheaded<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-19 07:54:01
subject: <b>Birds</b>
body:
Tuon is not the Hawk! If Tuon is the Hawk, what is her relationship to Perrin? As far as I can see, her only connection to the guy is through Mat, not strong enough for a viewing...Even Nynaeve has been referred to as a hawk (I think the quote is 'Light Nynaeve, you are a hawk!' Lan, just after they got married). If Tuon is a bird she would be a raven...remember the rhyme: One for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy? So I think it's joy for Mat, two ravens in the viewing, two with the fox on the medallion.


created: 2001-12-29 20:15:45
subject: <b>I almost agree</b>
body:
<br />I really like the idea that the &quot;eye on the left side&quot; is the White tower/saidar.  But I don't think that the question or balance has to do with Tuon or Egwene against Rand.  I think (and I know there is no evidence here) that we are going to find out that the medalion only works on saidar.  This is my point regarding &quot;half the light of the world&quot;.  Anyway getting back to the extension of your theory - I think Matt will end up giving up the medalion to Rand.  At the present, Rand biggest disadvantage is that he can't harm a woman.  Matt will decide that Rand/the World needs the protection more than he does.


created: 2002-03-19 00:36:36
subject: <b>The Hawk</b>
body:
I still think Berelain represents the hawk because the symbol of Mayene is the golden hawk and she certainly is around Perrin enough.<br /><br /><br /><br />---Wise man say he who goes to bed with itchy butt wake up with smelly finger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-27 02:42:26
subject: <b>whoa</b>
body:
Standard theory post:<br />If this, then this.<br /><br />Your theory posts:<br /><br />If this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this, then this.<br /><br />p.s. I detest smileys


created: 2002-05-05 22:19:09
subject: <b>Male A'dam</b>
body:
Tuon does NOT have the male a'dam, Suroth has it, which was mentioned a while back, when what's-his-face got his ship captured (the second time) before he could throw it overboard.


created: 2002-05-08 23:22:01
subject: <b>Light!</b>
body:
they way you guys talk, just makes me sick sometimes.  some of you guys are WAY off.    matt cannot channel.  his &quot;tingling&quot; which he supposedly &quot;assumes&quot; is his medalion IS HIS MEDALION!   read in the Wot RPG Guide under his medalions description.  it says &quot;anyone grasping the source or channeling turns the medallion icy cold from within 30 feet.&quot;<br /><br />	secondly, the horn was NOT stolen.  remember teh last tiem it was stolen, everyone went out and CHASED AFTER IT.  plus, whats the point?  they cant use it unless they kill Mat.  so it would be useless anyway, since Mat's much too cool to die. <br />	next, Tuon CAN channel.  if you guys would read WH again, it says that she took the test to be suldam and PASSED.  shes perfectly able to channel.  <br /> <br />	next, the ravens are obviously saenchean.  mat has the stuff all over teh place.  on his ashanderei, (his ring?)  in viewings and what not with the dotnm.  mat is destined to be mixed up with those guys forever.   im not sure what the ravens on his shoulders signify, but i dont think hed allow himself to be property without running away quickly immediately after.<br /><br />	as for the theory itself (now that im done with the cmments)   very nice job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> i loved every bit of it, though some could use a bit of work. rafo i guess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> hapy reading (and for lights sake read WH again people!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In the way of the quail!  Fly away! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 22:36:49
subject: <b>Great Theory- Except 4 2 things</b>
body:
1) I agree with Kaiser Karl when he states that nowhere in Winter's Heart does it actually state that Tuon can channel.<br /><br />2)I disagree with the folowing sentence; &quot;Also, the three women; Min, Elayne and Aviendha; will likely take Rand to Tar Valon to be Healed&quot;  Why would they take Rand to the White Tower when Nynaeve and some of the most powerful Aes Sedai and Asha'man are right there?  If I recall correctly, Nynaeve has the most talent in Healing of Aes Sedai, and male channelers are a lot more powerful in the power than female channalers.  Also, I don't think that Min and Aviendha really fully trust Aes Sedai they don't know, and I know Rand doesn't.<br /><br />But other than that, great theory!  Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />One Ring to Rule Them All<br />One Ring to Find Them<br />One Ring to Bring Them All<br />And in the Darkness<br />BIND THEM<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />There are Neither Beginnings nor <br />Endings to the Wheel of Time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 13:03:07
subject: <b>I'm sorry, but you are all dumbasses</b>
body:
Dudes (and chicks) - <br /><br />It's so simple and you are making it so complex. <br /><br />When the prophesy says that Mat will give up half the light of the world, it's referring to either Rand or that Seanchan girl. One is the Lord of the Morning (the sun), and the other is the Daughter of the Nine Moons (the moon). Both light the world, and so logic dictates that Mat will come to a point where he has to choose to give up one. <br /><br />I can't say whether he'll give up his soon to be wifey, or betry his best friend, but in the Great Hunt, after viewing multiple realities via the Portal Stone, Mat was heard to say to Rand, &quot;I'll never betray you&quot; over and over.<br /><br />Maybe he will lose an eye (didn't he put it on a balance scale in one of Egwene's dreams?), but I don't think that the &quot;give up half the light of the world &quot; is tied to that.<br />Separate events, to be sure.<br /><br />By the way, it's a horrible choice to make, poor guy.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 17:39:30
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
Maybe...<br />1. I won't go into whether the ravens on Mat's shoulders are tattoos or whatever since I haven't read it in ages. However it does seem likely that Tuon will tattoo Mat and make him property in revenge for 'laying hands' on tDotNM.<br /><br />or maybe not...<br />1. Alivia did not 'help' Rand to die any more than the 100s of other AS involved in the scrap did.<br /><br />2. Rand is not dead, he is just a little out of it due to channeling so much of the One Power. Though I hope getting rid of the taint also got rid of Lews Therin (though that's another theory altogether).<br /><br />3. Even if he was, Elayne, Min and Avi are not likely to take Rand to TV with Elaida the Red in charge.<br /><br />4. I like the bit about the Hawkwing telling the Seanchan that Rand is Da Leada Man. BUT would they listen? The Seanchan do not know Artur Hawkwing and (seeing as they are on the other side of the Aryth Ocean) probably know nothing about him except that he is Luthair's daddy.<br />


created: 2003-01-02 10:55:31
subject: <b>I doubt Min or Avi would take him to TV even with Eggy in charge</b>
body:
It's got a decent core, the Aes Sedai being the light of the world, but it's just taken too far. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-01 14:22:11
subject: <b>WOW! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This theory is amazing!  I mean you came up with all this before CoT came out and where some of your points are proven, but not all.  Like with Mat and the choosing between egwenge and Rand or Tuon.  Quite amazing!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 14:12:44
subject: <b>Based on physics</b>
body:
I have been thinking on this issue for awhile also, but I have to disagree with this theory.  The reason is that any matter can be a solid, liquid, or gas depending on the ambient temperature and pressure.  For example, water can be a solid (ice), a liquid (duh), and a gas (steam, water vapor, etc).  Therefore, by this theory, the branch of the OP the is Water, really only controls one part of a material.  In other words, a channeler would have to use Earth to manipulate solid water, Water to manipulate liquid water, and Air to manipulate gaseous water.  This makes no sense.  I think Water controls water in any physical state.  <br /><br />I do agree that Fire represents energy, but that is problematic as well, since matter is energy via E=MC^2, or nuclear energy.  Can Fire create an H-bomb?  Anyway that is enough rambling for now. <br /><br />Comments?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 14:13:51
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
To summarize you equated the One Power like the following:<br /><br />Earth = Solids<br />Water = Liquids<br />Air = Gasses<br />Fire = Energy<br />Spirit = Supernatural<br /><br />I like it, but lets take it a bit further, and put some real chemistry into it.  Try this:<br /><br />Earth = Metals and Semimetals<br />Air = Nonmetals<br />Water = Chemical compounds<br />Fire = Chemical energy<br />Spirit = Electomagnetic energy<br /><br />See if this works. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-17 19:33:10
subject: <b>As for the First reply...</b>
body:
When I was speaking of supernatural I was trying to make things easy to understand, as you admitted that makes things easier, but I think it makes sense.<br /><br />First Blackboard reply (Second reply): I'm fully aware that all matter could exist in three states.  However we've NEVER seen pure water channelled to affect water vapour or ice.  I think water was meant to mean liquid.  How many wotworlders really think of ice as solid water?  More likely they think of it as a wholly different substance related to water by temperature.  I chose Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, and Spirit because these are the alchemical elements of ancient times, which is the closest real-world scientific equivalent to the One Power.  These are the elements ancient philosophers worked with (some of them, anyway).<br /><br />As for H-Bombs, fire COULD make that power, but it would require MASSIVE channelling (perhaps beyond the Choedan Kal's power, even, although perhaps not).  We HAVE seen something that resembles a nuclear explosion, remember that gateway they failed to unweave after the bowl of the winds?  As soon as I read it I thought of Hiroshima.<br /><br />To the guy above: I've pondered similar things, but I think my explanation is more accurate.  We can work with that, but I'm pretty sure that one is wrong.  Earth can make Earthquakes, but not all Earth is metallic or semi-metallic (when last did a magnet stick to the farmer's field?).  Air is definitely over-generalised, because we've NEVER seen something solid or liquid manipulated directly with air (it can be moved with the air around).  We don't see diamonds being detected by the numerous women strong in air.  Water seems reasonable, I can't think of a good argument except that smoke is CO2 and I'm pretty sure Air covered that.  Fire as chemical energy...Sure, why not?  Spirit only works like that if you believe in psionics, though.  Which is quite believable in wotworld, I suppose.<br /><br />Thanks for the input, although I must say to the second reply (top on blackboard) that I think my theory did explain that I only expected liquid water to be affected by Water.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 20:52:35
subject: <b>NICE THEORY</b>
body:
I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT. I ALWAYS THOUGHT THIS TOO. AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH THIS THEORY IS EITHER BRAIN DEAD FROM READING TAIMANDRED THEORIES OR FROM THE DARK AGES.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;LOVER&quot; OF QUOTATION MARKS<br />ENEMY OF &quot;SPAGHETTI&quot; LOGIC<br />THIEF OF THE WORDS &quot;EHN&quot;, &quot;ERM&quot;, AND &quot;GIAZ&quot; <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />VICTIM OF THE VICOUS PLUTO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JACKAROO<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 21:15:43
subject: <b>Metals and Semi-metals</b>
body:
Metals and Semi-metals make up most of the Periodic Table.  In fact there are only 17 elements that are non-metals.  About the only problem with Earth being metal/semi-metal is that Carbon (something that should be part of Earth) is one of the non-metals.<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-18 10:49:56
subject: <b>Re: As for the First reply...</b>
body:
I still disagree.  Weather control with the OP uses primarily, if not solely, Air and Water.  Therefore, snow, being mostly (read ENTIRELY) frozen water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />, is controlled by Air and Water, not by Earth, as your theory would suggest.  Therefore, it doesn't seem that people of WOTWorld have a problem realizing that ice and water are the same thing, or at least really, really similar things.  <br /><br />Also, most atmosphereic water is vaporous (if it is not precipitating).  When Rand causes rain at Alcair Dal, I believe (but may be wrong) he uses a Water weave to suck up all the moisture in the air, not an Air weave.  Maybe I am reading my own thoughts into that section, but the wording was something like 'reaching for all the moisture he could find,' or something similar.  This indicates to me that WOTWorlders understand that water vapor is &quot;water in air,&quot; if not the physical aspects behind what it means to have vaporous water.<br /><br />In addition, I would think that even alchemists realize that molten gold or lead is still gold or lead, and not somehow related to water.  Also, I'm not sure if we've ever seen lava (molten rock) used in WOTWorld, but it seems to me that this would be a Fire/Earth weave, with no Water used, even though lava is liquid.  <br /><br />Therefore, a disticntion in the aspects of the OP based purely on physical state of matter is not quite right, even if it's close.  <br /><br />I look forward to your feedback,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 12:06:21
subject: <b>a few notes</b>
body:
smoke is NOT gaseous but solid (very small pieces) a bit like snow, but you can still do about anything with it if you can control the gas it's in. This means that you don't need to be able to control solids to control the weather(, although I do think you need fire).<br /><br />BTW how would you control plasma (being the fourth state of matter)<br /><br />interesting theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">expecting the worst,<br />Faramir <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> The Godfather of Grolsch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the blah, blah, blah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Defender blah, ...<br />blah...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 14:28:55
subject:
<b>WOTWorld  woohooo NOT Randland!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Just thought I'd say how much I dislike the term Randland. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 15:47:55
subject:
<b>More replies and feedback <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
To faramir: D'oh!  You're right about the smoke.  But CO2 still exists gaseously and that is important.<br /><br />And as for plasma, I guess either I omitted it or it was cut from the original theory.  I put it in with fire, because it approaches the state of energy.  Besides, there is very little plasma available in wotworld, maybe there's an undiscovered weave for it, or perhaps it's spirit.<br /><br />AOBtD (what does that stand for?): You are right, snow is solid, but it's not the same as ice, it is chemically different.  Aside from that, weather is controlled primarily by the movement of gases and bodies of water and water vapour on Earth (our Earth, not the weave) too.  Snow is formed by the weather, it does not form the weather.  The temperature (fire, absent in the air-water thing but quite essential in snow anyway, I'd say, whether this theory is right or not) is really the only important aspect differentiating snow weaves from rain weaves, so you really shouldn't need Earth to make or destroy snow.<br /><br />The second paragraph, your probably right, wotworlders should know about humidity and dry air, but I still don't think they would think of it as water when they were observing all the cool things the power could do.<br /><br />This is where you're wrong.  Lava is not liquid.  It is flowing molten rock, as is molten gold and lead.  So yes, that would be a fire/earth weave, to manipulate lava.<br /><br />I still say I'm right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />So, how about some more arguments? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 17:27:11
subject: <b>I have one word to say...</b>
body:
Duh.  Actually, I'd like to emphasize the alchemy elements a bit more:  Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit were the elements of the ancient world (before the concept of atoms, and elements like oxygen and lead).<br /><br />I'd also like to comment on some other people's comments...I don't mean to be rude, so just ignore it if it sounds that way.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>AOtBD.</b>  I disagree:  I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that more than one of the elements would be required to work with, say, an icy river.  Water only controls liquid water, and steam/ice is not controlled by Water.  It is a problem with the name, but give the ancients a break....  Post 2:  when he collected the water to make it rain, he would have to collect water <i>droplets</i>, i.e. liquids, from the air.  He also used some air in that weave, if I'm not mistaken (actually, as I recall we were not told the composition of his weave...he might not have known entirely himself).<br /><br /><b>Beeker.</b>  You are a HUGE dork.  Not that there is anything wrong with that....   The problem is, dirt is controlled by Earth (indeed, it's the primary thing controlled by Earth...), and dirt is mostly oxygen, carbon, etc., which are all non-metals (not even semimetals).  In addition, not all non-metals are components of air (e.g. bromine).  Also, is a big salt crystal (a chemical compound) controlled by Water?  Is a rock?  That makes little sense....  In your later post, you are forgetting that some elements behave differently under different sets of conditions (e.g. carbon:  in graphite form it is conductive, in diamond form it is semiconductive, and in fullerene form it is insulating).  Also, as far as solids, liquids, and gases, that is VERY temperature and pressure dependent.<br /><br /><b>faramir.</b>  Plasma is not really a state of matter--it has interesting properties because the gas is ionized, but it's still a gas.  In addition, there is also the &quot;superfluid&quot; stage that isn't really a gas either....  But I don't think anyone in WoT has ever or will ever deal with plasmas or superfluids.  If they did, they would probably kill themselves or others (plasmas are by definition VERY hot).<br /><br /><b>Jayhawk.</b>  Ditto.  Burn anyone who uses the &quot;R word.&quot;<br /><br />I agree with most of this theory--thumbs up.  But try to refrain from being dorky, everyone--when you do, you may find that you are not nearly as dorky as you wanted to be.  Besides, the only person who really has to think about these issues is Robert Jordan (I know that's a pseudonym).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 08:57:05
subject: <b>More Physical/Chemical Facts...</b>
body:
Just to clear things up a little:<br /><br />Snow is NOT chemically different than ice.  They are the exact same thing, frozen H2O.  Snow and ice/hail/sleet are just in different physical shapes.  <br /><br />Also, lava, gold, and any other thing that is &quot;molten&quot; is melted (by definition).  When things are melted, they are liquid (also by definition, see any chem 101 book).  Therefore, MOLTEN (read MELTED) solid, be it rock, ice, or metal is LIQUID.  Therefore, as you say, Fire/Earth must control liquid also.<br /><br />I don't think it is correct to say that Fire controlls temperature.  I only remember seeing Fire heat things, not cool them.  To cool, I believe the Air is used to disipate the heat.  I believe Elayne, Egwene, and Rand had a discussion about this.<br /><br />As to the Kaiser's post, there are no water droplets in the air of the Waste.  Water droplets in air form clouds, not a common sight in the Waste.  Therfore, he had to collect the invisible water, i.e. water vapor, spread throughout the area.<br /><br />In any event, my original point was that there are loopholes in/exceptions to the theory, and therefore is not a difinitive theory.  However, I do think it has been a great starting point for discussion.  Kudos on that respect.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S. One hint about the name, it is not WOTWorld related.<br />P.P.S. I, for one, am glad RJ thinks about things like this.  He does a lot better job than I EVER could.  <br />P.P.P.S. I am too as big a dork as I think I am, my mommy said so <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 17:03:47
subject: <b>Corrections</b>
body:
Snow is different from ice, otherwise it would -be- ice.  It has to do with the crystallization.  Snow is frozen water, ice is frozen water, snow and ice are different, therefore water comes in more than one form.<br /><br />Also, molten does not mean melted.  I'm sorry to just naysay you here, but you really must look up some scientific websites if you don't believe me: lava is NOT liquid.<br /><br />Oh, and yes: Fire was used to dissipate the heat.  Check out the Guide, or read the collected information on the One Power at www.dragonmount.com.  Air is not used to dissipate heat, it probably could be, but that would be very indirect.<br /><br />Yes, I basically just said &quot;you're absolutely wrong&quot; to all your points, I know that's rude, I'm sorry, but I'm right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 20:20:38
subject: <b>I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that point...</b>
body:
Despite your denials Your.Master, lava is indeed a liquid.  Here is a dictionary entry from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary at www.m-w.com:<br /><br />Main Entry: mol&#183;ten <br />Pronunciation: 'mOl-t&amp;n<br />Function: adjective<br />Etymology: Middle English, from past participle of melten to melt<br />Date: 14th century<br />1 obsolete : made by melting and casting<br />2 : fused or liquefied by heat : MELTED &lt;molten lava&gt;<br />3 : having warmth or brilliance : GLOWING &lt;the molten sunlight of warm skies -- T. B. Costain&gt; <br /><br />especially notice the second entry...&quot;liquefied by heat&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-20 09:59:41
subject: <b>Wrong again</b>
body:
Your Master, <br /><br />It's not so much that I disagree with you as much as it is that you are flat out wrong.  As the above post shows, you are wrong about the molten thing.  You are also wrong that snow is different than ice.  Snow IS ice.  Simply because snow is shaped differently than glacial ice, does not mean that it's not ice.  Here is a handy definition from a weather website (accents mine):<br /><br />SNOW  <br />&quot;Frozen precipitation in the form of white or translucent ice crystals (THATS RIGHT, IT SAID ICE) in complex branched hexagonal form. It most often falls from stratiform clouds, but can fall as snow showers from cumuliform ones...&quot;  <br /><br />-www.weatherdictionary.com, search for &quot;snow&quot;<br /><br />Therefore, by your theory, Earth would be neede to control certain PRIMARY aspects of precipitation (snow, sleet, hail, etc., exept for rain), which is almost entirely an Air/Water weave.  Also, Water would be needed to conrol LIQUID lava .  However, you did concede above in post 2279 that you thought lava was a Fire/Earth weave, so therefore your theory is wrong.  (Was I just being rude, if so I apologize <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />Which brings me back to the point I was making on my last post, applying modern definitions of matter and energy to the ancient elemental paradigm of Earth, Water, Air, Fire (and Spirit) is too simplistic.  Of course there are going to be exceptions to the rule.  I'm not saying your theory sucks, but I just don't think it works in every situation.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S. I'm not too worried about being wrong.  It happens enough that it makes me sure of when I'm right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 13:45:52
subject: <b>You know, your right on one, but still wrong on another</b>
body:
I thought I was talking about the properties of ice (different because of the formation of the crystals), and I guess I forgot what we were talking about with ice/snow.  Smack me on the head <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />.  Don't I look goofy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />.  Still, I don't think Earth is required for weather under my theory, for reasons already mentioned.<br /><br />Second, though:  Maybe molten is -supposed- to mean liquefied, but lava is -NOT- liquid, most of it isn't anyway.  Taken off of an Internet site:<br /><br />--<br /><br />Why dosn't lava melt through the side of a volcanoe?<br /> James<br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Hi James,<br />The main reason is that the lava would have to be melting the solid version of itself. Lava is kind of a complex material that doesn't have an exact melting temperature. Instead, there is a point at which it first starts to melt and then a point at which it is completely melted. Inbetween these it is kind of a slush with liquid parts and solid parts. Thinking of going the other way there is a point at which it starts to solidify and a point at which it becomes totally solid, again between which it is a slush. Anyway, the only way that liquid lava would be able to melt solid lava would for it to be above the totally-liquid temperature (called the liquidus), and this doesn't happen in nature. Instead, when it erupts lava is between the liquidus and solidus (the point at which it solidifies). You might also check the following web address: http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/cgi-bin/faq_search.cgi?keywords=melt<br /><br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Scott Rowland <br /><br />--<br /><br />Natural lava is -always- a slush, generally closer to solid than to liquid, which I would say would be governed by solids.  Also, by my theory, anything but fire or spirit could be combined with fire to act like something else.  Since I doubt that we will ever see natural lava in the series, it will be moved by Earth and heated by lava.  I am not wrong in this, I can find sites that will even say that a lot of lava has no liquid component, it just has VERY loose connections with it's neighboring molecules.<br /><br />Another thing with similar problems is glass.  At room temperature, glass is in fact a liquid.  It just flows incredibly slowly.  That's pure-glass, mind you, not the stuff they have access to in wotworld.  People generally assume that it's a solid because in many respects it acts like a solid, even to the point of resisting movement and shattering, not &quot;splashing&quot;.  But the Matrix had it right.<br /><br />So, does slush on the ground count as water or Earth?  According to your idea, it would be Water, as well as solid glacial ice.  But to me it seems intuitive that slush is Earth's domain.<br /><br />Another problem with Water-is-water is that water is H2O only.  Earth and Air get the rest under your idea, and even air in the desert contains moisture, too.  I guess that imbalance might make sense, given the Earth's unusual water-concentrated composition, but nature rarely falls into Earth's life-influenced balance.  Out of curiosity, not spite, what would liquid chemicals such as mercury and milk be affected by?  Or are they just unaffected, only indirectly manipulated by air?<br /><br />As somebody above said (in different words), the whole problem with water being liquid is really a question of semantics.  People didn't go around way back when saying &quot;Ice and snow are both water, just with different crystal formations&quot;.  Honestly, assuming that the power does work my way, what would you name the threads?  No, you can't choose solid, liquid, gas, energy, and supernatural or any interlinguistic translation of them, that's a bit complex for the lay-Aes Sedai.  Remember, maybe in the Old Tongue the Forsaken call it by the correct name, but wotworld has gone feral and so has the language since the breaking.  Pre-gunpowder society just wasn't all that enlightened, even among the elite of the time.<br /><br />This has been a great debate.  But I still don't get your name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.  It's probably obvious, but then again, maybe you think it's obvious and I've never heard of it.  Maybe that's the point, to make me blind to the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 15:22:19
subject: <b>Now there's something I agree with!!!</b>
body:
I DEFINITELY agree that there is a problem with semantics.  I don't think that it is possible (at least it's very obviously difficult) to discuss what the ancients meant by their descriptions of the Elements in light of modern understanding of the elements.  This is especially true because modern science is stil unclear about the nature of many things.  Take your glass example.  Glass is &quot;solid&quot; in that it does not take the shape of it's container (which is ONE definition of a liquid).  <br /><br />On the other hand, it does change shape over time (e.g.the glass of an old window is thicker at the bottom than at the top b/c of gravity).  This &quot;flowing&quot; is also like a liquid.  The term used to descibe glass that captures this difference is amorphous(sp?) solid, meaning solid, but able to change shape.  <br /><br />Any-who, this has been a wonderful debate, and I don't want to ruin it a la the Taimandred mess.  I will therefore concede that your theory is right under most of the &quot;normal&quot; conditions in WOTWorld, with a few disputed exceptions.<br /><br />On another topic, I was wondering if balefire may be an analogy to the Bomb.  Both give off a white, all destroying light, and have the potential to destroy the whole world/Pattern.  Obviously they are not the same, but I wonder if RJ is trying to offer us his opiion on the nuclear issue - that it is genreally bad to overuse, but may be necessry at times.  <br /><br />Anyway, hope to hear your comments soon!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The ever mysterious one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />(um, sort of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />P.S. I'll give you another hint, the fouth word is &quot;the&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 15:47:25
subject: <b>Forkroot (is that what it's called?)</b>
body:
You know how Nynaeve and Elayne drink that tea that makes them unable to channel?  (I'm pretty sure it's forkroot...)<br />	Well, maybe forkroot has something to do with plasma.  Maybe plasma is the &quot;anti-Power&quot; state of matter ( does this make any sense?).  It's just a thought... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />	By the way, I compleatly agree with the theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-22 09:27:54
subject: <b>No Taimandred here...</b>
body:
I -still- think my theory works universally <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> but I'll drop it.<br /><br />I thought the Nuclear issue was more like the exploding gateway being unwoven.  Remember?  Elayne said something like &quot;never again shall we use such an evil, naughty weave&quot;.  Well, not quite like that.  But it really looks like the bomb to me: white flash, huge surface area devastated, and right now the use of it is a closely held secret by three girls but the whole Corenne is quavering in their boots over the local Aes Sedai's &quot;new weapon&quot;.<br /><br />Wow, this blackboard is digressing.  Well, It's relevant, so who's going to stop me?<br /><br />Oh, and, um, *high-sarcasm* gee thanks *normal-sarcasm* for the enlightening cluse on the nature of the fourth letter of your name.<br /><br />All on board the...<br />the...<br />I'd say dragon, but it's not to do with the series...then again, there are other fictional dragons.  Or dinghy.<br />Ask old Bob the Devil...<br />Age old beer the...<br />the...<br />damned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 08:20:21
subject: <b>One More hint...</b>
body:
I thought everyone would have gotten my last hint<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />.  Oh well, here's one more.  Think of a Queen, and you'll be a step closer.<br /><br />Hehe.<br /><br />Hmm, I didn't pick up on that unraveling weave thing the last time you mentioned it.  It makes sense, and it also has a message from RJ.  It is as dangerous or even more dangerous to the user as to the victims.  However, I seem to remember that a raken or to'raken was flying in the immediate vicinity, and was not destroyed by unholy fire.  I guess it could have been a small nuke though.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />The ever mysterious one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 07:09:49
subject: <b>with the liquid windows...</b>
body:
glass is just melted sand with some other stuff mixed in, so maybe, if sand is melted once, it never really returned to the solid form.<br /><br />By the Way, WHAT IS YOU'R NAME?!?!?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 16:53:57
subject: <b>What's in a name?</b>
body:
I suppose it could be said of this theory that another one bites the dust...<br /><br />Then again, maybe not. <br /><br />Kraz


created: 2002-04-23 22:27:59
subject: <b>Good idea but personally I think there is one hole.</b>
body:
I think that although spirit has many things to do with the supernatural, that isn't its main function.  I think that Spirit has to do with life in general.  Living things with &quot;spirits.&quot;  See where I'm coming from?  spirit affects life like, for instance, balefire completly destroys that being through time.  It rips their life out of the pattern.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-09 17:13:40
subject: <b>A little bit of logic.</b>
body:
Those theories are are very well thought out, but let me present my own categorization:<br /><br />EARTH: Earth most likely controls things related to the earth; minerals, metals, most and things that grow out of the earth, such as trees/wood, and other plants, as well as the carbon parts of living things. Though with living things, other threads must be used to manipulate.<br /><br />AIR: Air is not used to manipulate any one thing or group of things. Rather, it is used to manipulate air PRESSURE. This would explain why it is also called Wind, which is, by definition, a difference in air pressure. For example, when Air is used to hold things, it does so by adjusting the air pressure around the space it is affecting. And when used to manipulate anything floating in the air, it moves it by adjusting the air pressure to a certain degree.<br /><br />WATER: Water is used to manipulate any liquid which contains, well, water. It doesn't affect one set state of matter, since ice is solid, and water vapor is gaseous. It may manipulate anything which has water in it.<br /><br />FIRE:I agree that Fire controls energy, but only radiant and heat energy. If it just controlled energy in general, it would have to include mechanical and chemical energy, which would be better controlled by Air, Earth, and Water. Radiant energy, such as light rays, are probably controlled by Fire. Also, I do believe that Fire controls heat energy and temperature. Contrary to anther statement made, it can be used to cool things off, but only by a channeler with great strength, by simply diffusing the heat.<br /><br />SPIRIT: Spirit controls just this. Spirit. Spirit includes the mind, and the ability to channel, as well as supernatural things, which is quite possible in a fantasy series such as WOT.<br /><br />Some other comments: Lava IS liquid. It has all the properties of a liquid; it takes the shape of it's container. And I must disagree with your theory of flight; gravity isn't even energy-- it's a force<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> And lastly, I have also always hated the term Randland. WOTworld is much better. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I hope this clears up the snags of your theory, Your.Master.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Unknown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Celtic warrior</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-14 21:39:38
subject: <b>Just one thing</b>
body:
Glass is not a liquid, it is a fluid, meaning it flows, liquid requires a bit more.  Not that it really matters, but I thought I would point that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 21:56:03
subject: <b>Go way back...</b>
body:
to when Egwene and Nynavae were on their way to the tower and Siuen(?) made one of them (Nynavae I believe) drink thi gross liquid? She definately said that it had to do with Earth not Water(because there was no actual water in it).<br /><br />BTW-If this is completely wrong don't hesitate to tell me. It's been forever since I last read them and I might not be remembering this correctly<br /><br />Just something I thought I'd mention...


created: 2003-05-15 14:57:19
subject: <b>Relax people, chill with some water, ice, OR vapor!</b>
body:
I think sometimes, maybe, just maybe, some people might automatically react negatively to a theory that naysays opposition. <br /><br />I think the theory itself may be a stretch in some places, but I for one like it the way things *kinda* fit in  to place like that. Kudos to the poster forgot his name.<br /><br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen<br />Fire to blind<br />Music to dazzle<br />Iron to bind&quot;<br />      --said at the beginning of a game of snakes and foxes.<br /><br />&quot;Thought is the arrow of time and memory never fades.&quot;<br />      -part of the writing on Mat's ashanderei


created: 2003-06-20 12:06:15
subject: <b>one word: &quot;Wicca&quot;</b>
body:
RJ is just using a reved up version of Wicca for this &quot;channeling&quot; stuff. Look on a wicca website and you will see just how similar the two systems are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 14:59:11
subject: <b>one point</b>
body:
I think point two was not disproven by burr thus still standing. point two alone debunks all points for slayer killing asmo.<br />thus it is imposible (not unlikely I-M-P<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />S-I-B-L-E)  that slayer killed asmo.<br /><br />PS I liked the moridin the traitor theory and it makes sense when you think about it but it's badly written so someone who can write well please rewrite it (I would write it but I would write it worse then the original, writing is my wheek point)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 15:58:25
subject: <b>Thumbs up, but this theory isn't conclusive</b>
body:
I agree with the theory, mainly for the oft-brought up point 2, but I still see holes.  *Devil's advocate mode initiated*<br /><br />1) How do you know that he who killed Asmodean was shocked to see Asmodean?  That puts gaping holes into the Graendal theory (which I support) if this is true.  And I agree with Burr...how much more of your own terms can this situation have gotten?<br /><br />2) In many mystery movies people find it obvious that the shady character with a criminal record and almost no screen time is the killer.  RJ might consider Slayer obvious in his obscurity.<br /><br />3) Who says Slayer <u>never</u> cleans up after himself?  Again, I have to agree with Burr on this one.<br /><br />4) Slayer, like all other Darkfriends, has his own agenda.  Said agenda deals heavily with the Dark One winning.  Asmodean's teaching of Rand kind of counteracts that agenda, doesn't it?  Plus, again, Burr's comments.<br /><br />In defense of the theory, I still think the Graendal theory has overwelming merits and besides, we really didn't know much about Slayer, we knew about as much about him as about the Queen of Saldaea (not much).  Did the Queen of Saldaea do it?  NOOOOoooooo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 21:16:12
subject: <b>More on point 2</b>
body:
Since everyone seems to bringing this up, I looked back and now see that, yes, how much we know about him is not necessarily dependent on how important he is to the Dark.  Now I wish I had commented more fully.  However, I have the chance to do that now.<br /><br />No, we don't know a lot about Slayer if you simply separate it into factums and then count them.  But that only judges the quantity of the information, not the quality, which is just as (or more) important in determining how much we actually <i>know</i>.<br /><br />The Queen of Saldea?  We know a billion and one tiddlywinks about her, such as descriptions of the people she's traveling with.  Does that mean she becomes more plausible as Asmodean's killer just by adding more traveling companions?  Bah!<br /><br />For Slayer, we know (or at least can guess educatedly) <i>important</i> information.  Before the end of FoH, we knew that he can exist in either T'A'R or the real world (which is relevant to the Asmodean theory, as all Graendal and Lanfear theorists seem to have agreed--amazingly!--upon.)  We knew that he was in league with the Dark One, and trusted enough by the Dark One to lead an army of Trollocs against Rand's homeland in an effort to lure the ta'veren home.  From his and Perrin's encounters, we knew that he was the assassin-type, rather than the types that each either avoids risk altogether or that loves outright battle.  We knew that Slayer hadn't done anything that we've heard of since being hit by an arrow (from which he would have had time to heal sufficiently through natural means, even if he didn't choose just to be Healed by a Forsaken, such as Moridin, if none of the others would suffice); and thus, we should have known that it was time for him to come back into the game.  And we can plausibly speculate that Darkfriends, and especially big Darkfriends, would revel at the chance and ability to defeat a Chosen, thus reducing the competition while gaining the Dark One's approval (in Asmodean's case, at least).<br /><br />Thus, we know beyond reasonable doubt, IMO, that he had the motive, opportunity, and ability to kill Asmodean.<br /><br />Of course, that doesn't mean he's the killer.  Lanfear (IMO) and Graendal also had the motive, opportunity, and ability.  I still prefer the Lanfear theory myself, and I supposedly I can admit grudgingly that the Graendal theory definitely has its merits, but then I think we should also admit the same of the Slayer theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 05:53:19
subject: <b>Torn....</b>
body:
Honestly,  I'm a big fan of both the Graendal and Slayer theories.  I think assuming Slayer is valid because it fits his usual job description and his powers allow him to do this task as well.  First, it doesn't say anywhere that the killer was surprised by Asmo.  Next, Slayer seems to be the guy to tie up loose ends and basically kill off dumb darkfriends.  He killed Amico and Joiya.  I seriously think he had darkfriend help to drug Adeleas so he could kill Ispan.  He's also killed Gray Men in the tower that attacked Egwene and Nynaeve.  Maybe to keep secrets from the good guys,  maybe as punishment for being captured,  these could be reasons he's assigned to these &quot;clean-up&quot; jobs.  Since that appears to be his general use for the Shadow that fits well with killing Asmo.  He pops into the celler, Asmo recognizes him, which, granted we didn't know Forsaken knew of Slayer till book 9,  a lil' slice n' dice, then pulls the body physically into T'A'R.  No evidence, no body.  To explain the inevitable &quot;But his words were described to 'hang in the air' argument that many think to point to Graendal.  I think the words would hang in the air if Slayer closed the gateway into T'A'R quickly.  And, I've always thought RJ saying pre-FoH-is-all-the-evidence-you-need-to-solve-the-mystery is similar to watching the movie Fight Club...(Possibly the weirdest statement on Wotmania)  But if you've seen the movie a couple times the surprise at the end is obvious.  Painfully obvious.  Now, RJ, he's only human (contrary to popular belief) and he's &quot;already seen Fight Club&quot; metaphorically speaking.  Of course to HIM it seems obvious, he WROTE the books!  (Line up to diss these last statements, no pushing)  RJ said on some transcript, sorry, can't remember where, that he had to give more clues to &quot;easy&quot; mysteries he thought we should've solved and throw in more twists to keep us from solving ones we weren't supposed to get yet.  Maybe someone else who's read it can testify for me.  <br /><br />P.S.  There must be some connection between Slayer and Sheriam.  Sheriam acts strangely around the killed Gray Men in the Tower.  Even Nynaeve realized that Sheriam never wondered or worried about who killed it and if the killer was still around.  Suspicious...  Sheriam later finds another dead Gray Men in her bed.  Strange.  Recently, she has been getting beat up by someone who can appear out of thin air. Apparently, she's supposed to be watching Egwene closely for this person. Is she working for the Shadow or, at least, Slayer?


created: 2001-07-19 08:27:47
subject: <b>I agree with the theory</b>
body:
My biggest thing about Slayer not being the killer is the last time we saw him was with an arrow through his chest.  We had no way of knowing what happened to him after that.  That was in TSR.  Then we didn't see him for FOUR bloody books!!!  There is no way.  Also, I'd like to point out that Slayer doesn't open a gateway, he just &quot;steps out of thin air&quot;  No gateways at all, he just materializes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 09:16:11
subject:
<b>Greandal did it all!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
If RJ says it has to be fairly obvious in FoH who had killed Asmo, I would choose Greandal instead of Slayer or Lanfear. <br /><br />By then, we don't know the Forsaken could be resurrected by the DO and everyone thinks Lanfear is dead. Moreover, no more than three days could have passed between the fall through the ter'angreal and the dead of Asmodean. We know from the trip with Mat in Finnland (TSR) that the time runs differently out there, it was almost seven days when he thought it no more than a few hours. If Lanfear had survived Finnland, she could never be in Caemlyn within three days, I think.<br /><br />In the early books, there's no statement that Slayer is an assassin for the Forsaken, so (whith prove of the theories) I think we can also leave him out. The only one who remains is Greandal... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />h@n<br /><br />P.S. Concerning the connection between Slayer &amp; Sheriam, there's no statement that this person who beats Sheriam appears out of thin air... She just hadn't noticed that person until she was shielded and beaten. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> I don't think Slayer has the ability to shield someone from the True Source. This person has to be stronger in power than Sheriam herself, and has to have connections with the Hall (only I don't know which Hall). Maybe she talked to someone about these Gray Men and found out it was the wrong person to talk to, or something... <br />Come to think of it... maybe it's Alviarin (who can weave a Gateway), but that's just for speculation. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-07-19 12:00:38
subject: <b>asmo</b>
body:
no one mentioned one fact. asmo could channel. lanfear said that the sheild will weaken with time, and it was long enough so he could tie slayer up with air or hurl a fireball at him. lanfear was in the ter'angreal (it took mat a week to come out) so we are left with greandel and fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 17:09:42
subject: <b>Queen of Saldaea - we didn't know much THEN</b>
body:
Just clarifying because of Burr's rebuttal.  And that is a great point above: Asmodean can channel, enough to AT LEAST trip up Slayer rather than just die.<br /><br />The greatest reason for disbelieving Slayer is the fact that Graendal fits the evidence a lot better.  Lanfear only does if we assume she escapes and probably isn't Cyndane, and I think that's a bad assumption.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 19:43:46
subject: <b>I must be confused about what you are trying to say YM...</b>
body:
True, didn't know much at all about the Queen of Saldea at that time (not even about her traveling companions), but we did know (or at least should have been able to plausibly speculate) all that stuff about Slayer at that time.  So removing what we learned later about the Queen of Saldea only further proves my point that your comparison between them is not accurate.<br /><br />True, the Queen of Saldea wouldn't have been Asmo's killer, because we didn't know enough about her to make it obvious.  But as I demonstrated in my previous BB reply, we <i>did</i> know enough about Slayer to make it obvious (at least from RJ's perspective).<br /><br />Also, I don't think Asmodean's being able to channel would have been enough of an advantage to have made a difference.  We can't say that the murderer was shocked about seeing Asmo (or if he was, he probably had time to get over his shock, since Asmodean wasn't exactly being cautious about not being seen, whereas a sneaker-arounder-for-any-reason would have been cautious).  However, we <i>can</i> say that Asmodean was shocked to see the murderer.  Thus, the murderer obviously had an advantage; and I believe Slayer would have known how to use such an advantage appropriately.  <br /><br />And one drawback of the Graendal theory compared to the Slayer theory is that while Slayer would have killed, wouldn't Graendal have rather Compelled?  She didn't try to kill Cyndane and Moggy, despite the fact that they were two against one (one with an angreal, true, but still just one).  Rather, she tried to Compel them.  Or is it different because she reacted instead of responded in the Asmodean case?  In that case, wouldn't she have reacted with a Compelling weave instead of a killing weave anyway?  After all, how often does she use killing weaves as compared to Compelling weaves?  The ratio is probably very, very small.  I think she would have Compelled whether it was through reaction <i>or</i> response.  Slayer, on the other hand, would definitely have gone for the kill.<br /><br />The only other piece of evidence that does not fit both theories equally well is that Graendal was plotting with Rahvin and Sammael.  However, as has been stated time and time again, this is extremely weak evidence because their plots had nothing to do with Caemlyn; and Lanfear had specifically designed the whole thing (that Forsaken meeting was guided by Lanfear, not Graendal &amp; Co.) such that none of them would know Caemlyn was to be attacked instead of a Illian.  And Rahvin does <i>not</i> trust Graendal and Sammael.  The only reason he joined them at all was because Sammael would have been the prey, not he.  Furthermore, you can't say that Graendal came by because they were expecting Rand in Illian at that time and neither he nor Rahvin had shown up; you can't say that if Rand had been due in Illian at that time, then Rahvin would not have been in Caemlyn.  (And, no, Rahvin would not have been able to feel a ward go off from hundreds of miles away.)  Yes, Graendal and Sammael probably both still had some spies in the Aiel camp that stayed behind, but how would those spies get the message to them in time?  Graendal can't just Travel in to check up on her spies because the Wise Ones would have felt the Traveling.  And Sammael <i>wouldn't</i> Travel in to check on their spies because, without a message from his spies in the first place, he would have no reason to believe that Rand was not in the Aiel camp at that time.  Plus, there's the fact that probably the only Aiel who knew they were attacking Caemlyn instead of Illian were the ones that remained with Rand and the Wise Ones (where neither Sammael and Graendal could Travel), so any spies in that group would have been unable to get a message to their Masters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 01:15:16
subject: <b>Asmodean's channeling</b>
body:
Whether Lanfeaer's shield had partially dissipated or not, Asmodean could still channel at least a little (enough to teach Rand) and probably enough to keep Slayer's hands still with Air. It wouldn't matter if Asmodean were surprised or not-- experienced channelers reach for the source pretty rapidly, and Asmo probably could've stopped Slayer before he had the chance to make a killing blow. The same goes for anyone who can't channel. The only people Asmo was really vulnerable to were the ones who could channel...


created: 2001-07-20 08:04:52
subject: <b>Graendal WOULD kill Asmo, not compulse him</b>
body:
He was a traitor and had to die.  She also knew that Asmodean would try and kill her if he saw her, and she did not know about the shield.  Therefore, instead of bothering with the compulsion she zapped him straight out.  Keep in mind when Graendal compulsed Moggy and Cyndane that they had been standing there talking to her for at least a few minutes, they didn't suddenly bump into her and she used it.  She used it when they were caught off guard, and she didn't want to kill them.  Asmodean she needed to kill and immediately.  The fastest thing she could think of would be balefire, just enough time for him to be surprised before he got zapped(a la Be'lal).  Also, Asmo wasn't killed immediately after the death of Rahvin.  It was some time, at least several hours afterwards.  Bashere had had time to come into the city after he heard a rumor that the Dragon Reborn was in the city, how long do you think that took?  Also, nearly all of the shadowspawn had been chased out of Caemlyn, which certainly took some time.  And everyone was also back in the palace.  Graendal coming to loot the palace a few hours after Rahvin's death fits in perfectly with her looting Illian a few hours after Sammael's death.  She didn't necessarily ahve to be in Caemlyn ahead of time, and she certainly could ahve learned that Rahvin was dead in that time(as she did with Sammael).  So there you have it.  At least, we are agreed that Slayer did not kill Asmo, yes?  That is THE stupidest idea I have ever heard.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 09:18:26
subject: <b>Do not forget the fishbites...</b>
body:
There's also the fishbites-theory. When Rahvin was balefired by Rand, Nynaeve still had to Heal Rand's wounds... There's but one possibility: Rahvin was not alone in T'A'R. I'm still thinking Greadal was helping Rahvin at that time and she came back to search for some decent ter'angreal. That's when she met Asmo and zapped him... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />h@n<br />


created: 2001-07-20 14:18:17
subject: <b>Tell ya' what, Burr...</b>
body:
I'll just drop the Queen of Saldaea.  You know it's not a good example when your confused as to what the other is confused about<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.  Must be on different wavelengths.<br /><br />And yes, I agree and even before said that it might be obvious from RJ's perspective what with the whole murder-mystery theme, but it still wasn't THAT obvious.  Nothing about Slayer makes me go &quot;Of Course!&quot;.  Even Lanfear does that, though I support Graendal.<br /><br />I will agree with one of the people above: a channeller does not need much reaction time, none really.  He would have instinctively lashed out with the power if nothing else.  That's how wilders discover that they can channel in the first place: by instinctively using the power at a sudden moment of dire need.  True, the fright from seeing Slayer -could possible- have slowed down Asmo's reactions, but still.<br /><br />Now, Slayer knows about advantages, does he?  Why wouldn't he then materialize BEHIND the weakened-yet-still-potentially-threatening Forsaken, where he wouldn't be seen at all?<br /><br />I also agree with another above person: Graendal wouldn't just compel Asmodean.  All the Forsaken know is that Asmodean was captured and turned, not that he was powerless.  Also, we know that even if it's not impossible, it is hard for a female to compel at least some males.<br /><br />Also, to look deeply into Graendal's history, she was basically an AOL hippy.  She absolutely hated luxury, extravagance, anything that lacked efficiency.  Since turning to the dark, she completely reversed her thought processes on those lines, but still she would have at least some residual efficiency when she bumps into some Forsaken.  Most of her conscious life was as a good girl, after all.  Yes, this is an incredibly weak and stupid point, but I still have to say it.  Graendal compelled me to.<br /><br />As for your last point...well, I think I need to brush up on my Graendal theory, because I don't know what your talking about but it looks well-written and potentially correct <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Anyhoo, let the battle of the devil's advocates continue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 14:22:34
subject: <b>Oh, and as for fishbites -</b>
body:
I'm not sure, but I think the Forsaken would at least suspect that the male Choedan Kal linking ter'angreal were in Rand's hands.  After all, it's use brought the male half of them to the site of the cleansing, and Asmodean and Rand between them were using the entire Choedan Kal plus their own considerable power, PLUS a standard fat-man angreal.  If the males thought the Cleansing was a second sun, this one must have put Tatooine to shame!<br /><br />(I'm not a Star Wars nut, but Tatooine has three suns, in case anybody is wondering what I'm talking about)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 06:46:18
subject: <b>To all of you out there.....</b>
body:
ASMODEAN IS NOT DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />(for more info, see my theory, if it gets posted)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 08:55:21
subject: <b>Again, RJ said he was dead and not coming back</b>
body:
see title.  But I'll read your theory if it gets posted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 16:28:35
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
...none of the male Forsaken would have felt the battle between Asmodeon and Rand in Rhuidean. When it is over and Lanfear turns up, she comments on how the place was shielded somehow, but there was too little remaining residue for her to feel how exactly. Now the only possible reason absolutely none of the male Forsaken turned up to see if they could take advantage of this battle would be that they couldn't feel it, the shield prevented saidan escaping.


created: 2001-08-27 08:15:12
subject: <b>Graendal killed Asmodean</b>
body:
Yep, that's right.  I've got no other arguments than this:  Robert Jordan said so himself.  So there's the end of that discussion.


created: 2004-11-21 10:47:21
subject: <b>food for thought</b>
body:
maybe slayer was in the palace to kill rand the dont kill rand order was in LoC) when he bumped into asmodean. maybe it was ravhins insurance/vengance policie or something but anyway, he comes out near to rand but not where he could be seen (he couldnt pin point him exactly). he sneaks towards where rand is, and suddenly a known a asmodean bursts through the door. slayer would panic, thinking he was rumbled and the game was up! perhaps lashed out killing asmodean in his panic before fleeing with the body to make a clean getaway!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 10:48:35
subject: <b>ooops!</b>
body:
my last post should read (the dont kill rand order was issued in LoC)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 17:39:48
subject: <b>Wonderful idea, about the cannons...</b>
body:
... I don't know what I think about the Noal part though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 17:41:17
subject: <b>Tower of Ghenji</b>
body:
I may be wrong here, but I thought in Eye of the World, Rand, Mat, and Thom all take a ship and along the way they actually see the Tower of Ghenji. Am I wrong here? If not, then all three should know exactly where it is. Well, maybe not Mat, since he has the whole memory problem, but why not Thom? It seems rather obvious that Thom will be in the group (Lan though? Yeah, he was Moiraine's Warder, but he's kinda bonded to Nynaeve now, and she never had any great love for Moiraine). Noal coming with them isn't a bad idea, but I don't see why he'd be needed to find the Tower. On a semi related note, does anyone else think it odd that Perrin's plot threads can be resolved quickly, Elayne's quickly, Egwene's in the course of one book, and Rand's remaining one's (besides the last battle) also in one or two books, but Mat still has to marry Tuon, probably invent gunpowder, give up half the light of the world, find out whether he can still sound the horn, and possibly rescue Moiraine? I don't think Mat should have been the one left out of Path of Daggers...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 09:33:11
subject: <b>Why would anyone think that Noal is Jain Farstrider?</b>
body:
???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" />  Existence is Futile!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Light is Bright, there for I look into it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Asmodean:  You!  No! <br />Rhuarc:  Oh.  Sorry.  Sometimes I forget to wear pants. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 10:40:13
subject: <b>Noal=Jain</b>
body:
I don't remember exactly (someone else will know exactly), but earlier in the series, I think one of the Aiel referred to Jain Farstrider as Jain Charin, Noal's last name.  Minor details:  he seems to be a better story teller than Thom, and a couple times he was disgruntled when Mat knew something about an exotic culture that he didn't know.  I hope that helps.  Hopefully someone else can find the exact quotes.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 16:27:15
subject: <b>Noal is Jain</b>
body:
It was Agelmar Jagad who said jain farstriders real name is Jain charin.  It's on page 710 in EotW. Paperback.


created: 2001-07-19 17:21:13
subject: <b>First - there is no doubt Noal is Jain</b>
body:
Noal is the beggar that keeps appearing in the books (EotW through to now).  The characters always dismiss him as a dirty old man who's watching them not maliciously, but with an intelligence belying experience beyond beggardom (in 100% different words).  Look at some of the older theories to match Jain Farstrider to the recurring beggar.  Now, Noal knows of the headless men of Shara, written of in the Travels of Jain Farstrider.  Remember, visitors to Shara never see ANYBODY and are kept outside the walls.  Only Jain Farstrider has seen the wonders of Shara and lived to tell the tale.  Jain has also been to the blight and would know about Gholam, which is why he seemed relatively unconcerned with the Gholam.  Blah blah blah.  Blah blah, blah blah.  I hope you're convinced.<br /><br />As for the theory - I like it.  Thumbs-up.  I'd always assumed the bellfounder was for cannons, and it DOES fulfill all the criteria.  Noal is probably the most knowledgeable in the world concerning the finns, mostly because he's the most knowledgeable person in the world (aside from the forsaken and MAYBE some Aes Sedai) about EVERYTHING.<br /><br />Still, I think Courage (anybody), Iron (Perrin), Music (Rand's flute/Thom's music), and Fire (Mat's matches) would be a more fun ending to the subplot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 18:11:33
subject: <b>The Trick is to Cheat</b>
body:
Remember that the Eelfinn and Aelfinn both ask two questions before they lead people to their &quot;elders&quot;, so to speak: 1) Do you have any musical instruments on you and 2) Do you have any fire?<br /><br />Obviously, the way to get around this is not to merely lie, but to trick them by cheating.  You cheat by upholding the letter of the law but not its spirit - i.e., you take a gun or at least fireworks, so you don't have any fire but are capable of making it, and you don't bring musical instruments but do bring something that could be converted into an instrument.  Therefore, you tell the Aes Sedai truth and get the Aelfinn or Eelfinn to take you to the room where questions are asked/wishes granted.  Then you override their telepathy with music, frighten them with fire, and coerce them into doing what you demand.<br /><br />I just wish we didn't have to wait until 2006 to see how it all plays out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 13:12:00
subject: <b>Expediton to the Finn</b>
body:
one thing alot of people forget, is that once you enter one of the ter'angreal entrances, you cant go back in. Which puts Mat out of the expedition. But, i dont think theres really going to be any Expedition. Egwene's dream was of THOM pulling Moiraine's stone out of fire, not Thom and his friends.<br /><br />I think Aludra will hook Mat up, and thus hooking Thom up with some matches, so he's not bringing fire, but he can make it. <br /><br />I dont know about the musical instrument, but maybe Thom will bring some kind of music box, so hes not bringing a musical instrument, but he can make music. He could always just lie, and bring his harp, saying its a bow or something..... <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-07-21 23:10:40
subject: <b>Mat still can enter directly through the tower of Ghenji</b>
body:
He just can't enter by going through the ter'angreals. It's not that he is denied access to the world of the snakes and foxes completely, he just has to sneak in through the back door. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-23 07:56:15
subject: <b>Noal = Jain = Darkfriend</b>
body:
Doesn't Ishy say in EotW that &quot;Jain Farstrider, this hero, thought he could escape me&quot; or something like that. I think that shows that he is a DF, and if he's the beggar, it only shows it even more<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-23 12:42:22
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
I disagree that Jain is a DF.  In the last book, or the second to last book (don't rmember), there is a passage from Noal's POV, whrer he can't really seem to remember what is going on.  At first I thought it was just do to old age, but now that you bring up that passage, I think maybe the DO or Ishy fogged his mind somehow. <br /><br />Anyway, it would suck if WOTWorld's Indianna Jones equivalent was a DF.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The mysterious one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 01:14:43
subject: <b>Ishy and Jain</b>
body:
Everyone keeps mentioning Ishy and Jain! I don't remember ever seeing that, can someone please give me a paperback page number or at least the chapter name?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 01:29:52
subject: <b>beggar</b>
body:
As for the beggar, i thought it was Padan Fain.  I mean, is was always looking at Rand, always made him feel distinctly uneasy, and always fled when it saw that it had been noticed.  Once, it made Rand run in terror, also (tEotW).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 16:37:35
subject: <b>RE: Noal &amp; the Finn</b>
body:
Good theory...but I would offer that the proper answer to all four elements of the riddle of the Finn is &quot;Gunpowder&quot;, not &quot;Cannon&quot;.<br /><br />Courage to Strengthen:  As you make gunpowder more and more potent (mixing Potassium Nitrate, Sulphur, and Carbon (usually Charcoal)), it becomes more and more volatile, and thus more dangerous.  Thus, courage is required to produce a better, stronger, explosive.<br /><br />Iron to Bind:  Have you ever unwrapped a firecracker and lit the gunpowder on fire?  It's not very spectacular...it sparks and fizzles a bit, but does not explode.  In order for gunpowder (or any other chemical mix for that matter) to be an effective explosive, the space into which it can expand when combusted must be restricted (the shell of a bullet, casing on a bomb, tight paper wrapping on a firecracker or bottle rocket, etc).  In fact, the force with which a chemical explosive detonates is roughly proportional to the pressure with which it is constrained.  In the case of WoT, gunpowder will most likely be &quot;bound&quot; between the shell of a cannon and a cannonball.<br /><br />Music to Dazzle:  Gunpowder go boom. <br /><br />Fire to Blind:  Gunpowder make flash.<br /><br />'Nough said.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Discoverer of logical inconsistencies  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 15:36:38
subject: <b>Jain...</b>
body:
...went on an expedition to into the Blight the last time anybody heard of him and evidently Ishamael captured him. Then he sent him to the Ogier and Farstrider thought he was free of him, but actually he had a purpose. If you remember Loial tells a story of a man who came to the Ogier and they thought he was ill because of Aes Sedai as in the stedding he immediately got better. It was channeling that had hurt him, but not from Aes Sedai, from Ishamael. When he was better and about to leave, Ishamael's trick worked as he told the Ogier about the Eye of the World. Ishamael set it up all along, he was linking everything to the Eye of the World to ensure the Dragon Reborn would be there as at that time he wanted to teach him and turn him to the DO.<br /><br />There is a chapter in one of the books (can't remember which) that is actually entitled Courage to Strengthen. Now this chapter is split into 3 parts covering 2 main characters, Mat and Egwene. Mat has the middle section and in it he is playing Snakes and Foxes with Olver, so at first you may think the title refers to the rhyme used. However, if you read Egwene's parts you see that it is actually she who is showing courage in this chapter, as she confesses that she is not an Aes Sedai to the Wise Ones and takes her punishment. So perhaps Egwene is going along too. Now I know that people will say that her commitments as Amyrlin prevents this, but don't forgot that she is a Dreamwalker. I believe she and Perrin will enter the ToG in Tel'aran'rhiod. I would think that Perrin is going to go anyway and then Egwene happens to meet him just at that time for the first time in the World of Dreams. When she finds out what he's going to do, no doubt she will insist on helping as Moiraine is her friend and she knows dreaming far better than he.<br /><br />I dunno, it's just an idea.


created: 2001-10-01 17:00:46
subject: <b>the beggar</b>
body:
I seem to recall that a Darkfriend Circle in Ebou Dar was led by a old beggar who seemed very much like Noal. When he first appeared I was convinced he was a Darkfriend. This was in connection to a horserace where Mats boy participated.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> = just me


created: 2001-11-25 22:07:54
subject: <b>confused</b>
body:
i dont remember anything about noal/jain and ishand a stedding. i dont remember any noal untill he helps mat. the only beggar i remember is fain.  im not tryin to prove anyone wrong or anything, im just confused <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  stupid thoeries make baby Jesus cry  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 13:08:24
subject: <b>Easy answers?</b>
body:
The canon may answer the entire riddle at once, but since when did RJ write easy solutions to his problems.  I my opinion the canon is too easy of an answer.  I think it will have to take a group of people to pull off the rescue, for instance someone to dazzle them while another binds them.


created: 2002-01-03 22:39:05
subject: <b>The Beggars</b>
body:
There seems to be some confusion on the identities of the beggar(s), and I remember reading a pretty good analysis of that on one board or another. First of all, the beggar Rand and Mat kept encountering in TEotW was definately Padin Fain, and is not the same as the ones seen in Ebu Dar (unless he can travel). But the conclusion was that there were two separate beggars in Ebu Dar. One was the DF leader, and the other ends up being Noal. I'll have to review that part in the books and see, but I remember something about one missing the eye and the other had both. That sort of thing is hard to fake unless you can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 23:36:51
subject: <b>The Beggars</b>
body:
The leader of the Darkfriend circle is named Old Cully. Mat meets up with him while he's looking at Carridin's palace, and Old Cully tells Mat that its Carridin's. When Mat meets Noal, Mat doesn't recognize Noal as the same beggar as before. Therefore, unless Noal can channel, they are not the same person.<br /><br />On the main theory, I agree that Noal will come along into the Tower of Ghenjei. He might even remove the curses that were put upon him by Ishy. But what price might he pay?


created: 2002-12-09 14:52:56
subject: <b>Musical Cannons</b>
body:
There are cannons to make music in &quot;For Those about to Rock&quot; by AC/DC.  I just thought id mention this cause its a great song, and the cannon thing brought it to mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-19 08:20:56
subject: <b>courage to strengthen...</b>
body:
well, i dunno about you people, but i'm not convinced by the verse. the finns wold have had to have let that verse be knwn, and why would they do that? to bring abouttheir own destruction? to tell pl how to beat them. <br />&quot;Courage to strengthen&quot;... strengthen who? the other parts of it all sound like ways of defeating them. Strength is usualy considered a positive thing, while the other's aren't (usualy, at least.) what if it's really boasting? what if it's saying they're brave, ie strong with courage, have fire to blind strangers, music to dazzle (they don't want to be beaten at it) and iron to bind people he dn't like? it's just an idea, b i'm just trying to get across tha it isn't necessarily a way to eat the finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The almost but not quite totallly not lucid one <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />? Decisions decisions....</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-27 23:26:36
subject: <b>Not fully convinced...</b>
body:
I like the canon idea, since it fits with the rhyme, but no one has brought up one minor detail...how in the world are they going to bring a canon in there? As soon as you entered with something like that you'd have to fight your way further in or back out. I don't think the Finn would be stupid enough to not realize what it was.<br /><br />But hey, perhaps someone has figured this out already?<br /><br />Linayus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> The Not-So-Wise-One? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Linayus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,&quot; he said softly, &quot;or you will be knelt.&quot; (Was that not the BEST ever? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> )</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 19:26:15
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
The only problem is that it counteracts another good but probably untrue theory (I keep pulling up these old theories, I'm like an encyclopedia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) - that Rand will destroy the Dark One, and Padan Fain will take his place.<br /><br />The only real merit the aforementioned theory has is that only Padan Fain has been touched by every evil force in the universe (Machin Shin, Mashadar, the Dark One, his own human evil).  But still, I always thought that theory would be the most fun ending.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 20:50:30
subject: <b>speakin of machin shin</b>
body:
I think that Fain is gonna absorb the black wind myself.  Kind've like how he's a combination of Darkone evil, and mashadar evil, or mordeth evil, why not give him the black wind to fight with as well as the shadar logoth powers.  Now that'd be a cool scene.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-27 17:01:33
subject: <b>A quick idea</b>
body:
My buddy's opinion is that Fain has now absorbed the power of the Taint as well.  I'd forgotten Machin Shin.  If he gets the full strength of all three he's a force to be reckoned with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 20:35:23
subject: <b>To The Guy Who Gets To Comment First</b>
body:
Raserei i have to agree with you fain is the man!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 18:05:30
subject: <b>Regarding Moridin and Padin Fain</b>
body:
i like the idea that Moridin and Padin Fain will fight each other etc, about Rands wounds recieved from both.<br /><br />And just like the wounds, RJ seems to like the idea of 2 battles in 1, take the final battle in tGH. Rand linked with the Light Forces, against Ishy linked with the Seanchan etc.<br /><br />As it was in tGH, it might be in the moridin and padin Fain battle....moridin linked with the DO's Evil, and Padin Fain linked with the Shadar Logoth Evil.<br /><br />Just a thought !<br /><br />Demon  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 23:00:39
subject: <b>awesome</b>
body:
i never thought of anything like that, but i like it alot. i think that Rand will kill Moridin though. that is the fight i would rather see anyway. but maybe Moridin could kill Fain. Fain sucks. Anyway very intriguing theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-20 15:16:07
subject: <b>Your point?</b>
body:
Shaza?!?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 16:03:15
subject: <b>Really...</b>
body:
Does it matter?  <br /><br />But more than likely it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 19:29:10
subject: <b>There on to you.</b>
body:
Time to lead the crusade.<br /><br />(Notice how I carefully didn't say which side I was on.  Most of you will never notice that.  Heh heh heh...D'OH!  You can see this post.  Must...delete...before...clicking...submit...NO THE HAND OF DEATH HAS POSSESSED ME AND IS FORCING ME TO TYPE THIS ARGGGG!)<br /><br />Yes, I'm sane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 05:55:49
subject: <b>Eh?</b>
body:
Is this a theory? I thought it was fact....don't you realise that WoTmania will eventually have your soul? Go on, turn to the Dark, you know you want to....Im Naeblis, I can make you immortal!<br /><br />MUAHAHHAHHAAHAA!........time for the pills again, matron.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 12:46:26
subject: <b>Your Theory Actually Frustrates Me...</b>
body:
I think that you have no right to call the admins corrupt.  Even though they're a super-secret league of evil plotters and have henchmen and stuff.  And true, I can't even remember who they all are anymore &#8216;cause they are always adding flunkies and hangers-on to their ranks.  And no, they have never said kind words to me, just stuff like: &quot;you smell&quot; and &quot;get back in line you twit and just be thankful you get gruel at all!!!!!&quot;  And sure, it gives me the creeps knowing that they lace each post on the message board with hidden psycho-messages designed to cause us to &quot;free our minds&quot; of... well... our minds.  And sure I'm jealous that they all get free smilies without ever having to work.  And of course it bugs me that they are always having parties, going to all the swank clubs, meeting all the celebs and going on and on about how they, each, make wotmania such a great place.  But you have no right to call them corrupt.  Go, instead with &quot;degraded&quot; or &quot;depraved&quot;.  Those are better I think.  Corrupt is just too weak.<br /><br />Thought I should point that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm&gt;Cool Fish&lt;/a&gt;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 10:03:29
subject:
<b>Great.  So am I a flunkie or a hanger on-er? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Nothing to see here<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-26 20:04:47
subject: <b>*smirks*</b>
body:
*idles*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I've just wasted some of your bandwidth with this pointless sig. Aren't you happy?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-26 22:18:43
subject: <b>What hidden posts?</b>
body:
Are you guys for real? They wouldn't do that. :looks up at sky, not noticing the edge of the cliff:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-14 17:03:56
subject: <b>Wah-ha-ha!!!</b>
body:
Nobody's ever actually come right out and called me corrupt before... I like it!  Makes me feel kinda like a naughty girl... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lauriana Aes Sedai of the Brownish-Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of the UT chronicles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 20:57:00
subject: <b>in response....</b>
body:
Corrupt admins?  what other kind is there?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 07:23:27
subject: <b>I feel so special being corrupt now!</b>
body:
Imagine, poor little-wittle <i>me</i>, called up to be an evil-boll-weevil Admin!  I feel so honored!  I just <i>so</i> enjoy plotting how to make the peons' lives miserable, whether it's by posting links to fat women in bikinis or uttering the praises of the Man himself, Gilbert Gottfried.  I aim to please....but not you.  But alas, no one talks about the hardships of being an Admin, the backbreaking work of being corrupt, the vicious attacks  by the do-gooders, not to mention the Jelly Doughnut of the Month Club that our Overlord, Mike, has enrolled us in.  Sigh.  It takes a lot of work to be evil, but I'm willing to work hard for my evil.  And all I ask in return is just a bit of fear and loathing on your part, m'kay? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S.  This is my first Theory Post response - imagine that! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.P.S.  No sluts for you, for bad-mouthing us! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dylanfanatic <img src="images/personalsmilies/320.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience.</i> - Narrator, <i>Sylvie</i></font><p><a href="http://ofblog.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">OF Blog of the Fallen</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 20:00:31
subject: <b>*copies names to his virus email list*</b>
body:
You know, being corrupt has its perks.  You get to pocket everything that ain't nailed down, you don't care about the feelings of others and you get a cool hat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-01 19:08:05
subject: <b>So..Wait does this mean I can be Corrupt WotMainian?!</b>
body:
I Wanna be Corrupt!!!! &lt;Kicks a admin&gt; does that work?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Slighly Sain <br />A bit Synical<br />Master Illit<br />Lord of Typo's<br />King Newbie<br />The Doomed BEDLAM<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 13:08:29
subject: <b>And I was wondering...</b>
body:
...How in ever this ever got past the admins, if they're in fact corrupt. <br /><br />Now I see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 15:29:36
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
A bit over the top on the whole Stars Wars front, but otherwise it is nice to see all this together.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Ever Mysterious One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 16:32:05
subject: <b>off topic</b>
body:
This is kind of off topic, but in &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot; Siuan tells egwene that with Callandor in her hands she could do something or other. We know that it can't be used by women.  What was with that?


created: 2001-07-20 16:48:54
subject: <b>I am sure this has been mentioned but...</b>
body:
I think that Elayne's kids are going to be Shivan the Hunter and Calian the Chooser reborn. These are both heroes of the horn but their description seems to point to them being Elayne's kids. As I am reading A Crown of Swords right now I found this quote there(but I am sure it is in The Great Hunt too): &quot;Mikel of the Pure Heart, and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages,the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side.&quot; This is Mat's recollection of when he sounded the Horn of Valere when he recognized Birgitte. It was on page 460 in the paperback.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 19:44:47
subject: <b>As for Star Wars...</b>
body:
If you read the books, the WHOLE SERIES is a little &quot;over-the-top&quot; concerning Star Wars.  Absolutely everything can easily be related to Star Wars.  The Force/Power, Ishamael, the Clone Wars...err, I guess those had to do with Trollocs, now, didn't they?  Rand's upbringing and sword, I'm sure many of you can guess the identity of Yoda, Han Solo is quite the Matrim Cauthon (I guess that makes Brigitte Lando Calrissian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).  The fourth boy of two rivers (not in the series but in interviews Jordan admitted that's what he envisioned until an editor pointed out that character four was a useless boring character who wasn't going anywhere) would be Chewbacca.  Elayne represents Leia.  We've yet to see Polygamy in Star Wars, but we've seen Rand's old girlfriend match slave Leia (who didn't work out with Luke either).  The prophecies sound similar, there are parts I can't remember but I swear are 100% identical except names are transposed.  Tam is an old warrior...*breathes heavily*...although I don't think Tam's evil he's not the real father, either.  Rand turns out to be Elayne's distant relative, somewhat similar to Leia.  These are all really bad examples, but if you want think about this on your next read through.  The first 6 books in particular reek of Jedi knights.<br /><br />Still, this is 800% speculation on the author's part.  I don't think it will happen (although kudos for going along the original thoughtline of Rand's kids being of greater importance than he himself).<br /><br />BTW his name is Jain &quot;Noal&quot; &quot;Ubiquitous recurring beggar&quot; Farstrider, not Jaim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 13:48:14
subject: <b>A Thought</b>
body:
Im quite new to this site, but i havent seen anyone say this about Rand = Fisher. If you remember back when Mordin is playing the game, he says how the game doesnt really start until the fisher has been captured by one side. Now i just think that this ties in nicely with Fel and Ishy saying that it is actually an eternal battle, and that sometime the dragon ends up as the DO's champion.<br /><br />So the dragon has to fully decide which side he is on at TG. Maybe if he loses his humanity and doesnt get healed by cadsuane (sp?), this will have him fight in a way that the DO wins? So Cad has to teach him emotions again, and then he will fully fight for the light.<br /><br />now, as to where he is losing humity, it could just be his high stress carrer, but i have a diff theory. The WO say that entering TAR fully you lose part of your humanity, so maybe thats whats wrong with him, he needs to enter TAR by sleeping, not travelling.<br /><br /><br />My 1st post


created: 2001-07-27 17:14:47
subject: <b>Yeah, I know . . .</b>
body:
Yes, it's all wild speculation, but I like the ideas anyway.  <br />As for the SW stuff -- hey, I love the series.  I'd be a Jedi Knight if it were at all possible (and I'm going to be as close as I can get, the Force willing).  Besides, lightsabers are the coolest weapons ever dreamed of.  So if you don't like my rabid SW fanaticism, you can ignore me. <br />Thanks for the spelling correction, Your.Master.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 15:28:33
subject: <b>The Shadow Strikes Back/ Return of the Gaidin</b>
body:
Couldn't decide which title to use! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It's a lovely theory, but it has to happen in the next four books, and at the pace Ser Jordan has been setting of late, methinks it won't. General Ja-Har Narishma soundsa good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-05 18:50:27
subject: <b>I like one thing about this theory</b>
body:
It might stop those &quot;missing <i>sa'angreal</i>&quot; theories with its smart connection of the Sangreal (the actual Holy Grail) to the <i>angreal</i> of the series.<br /><br />The Holy Grail is still missing (leaving aside Indiana Jones) and that <i>sa'angreal</i> should also, both to show that some things truly were lost in the Breaking, and to stop innumerable theories about which Asha'man will &quot;inherit&quot; what object.


created: 2002-04-25 08:23:51
subject: <b>!?</b>
body:
If that last part about Rand's child being the hero happends, I will personally take out Jordan. Gee...of course Rand's children wont be the most important, Rand is(and if not I'll be terribly... angry...).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 19:37:17
subject: <b>Rand will die</b>
body:
Has anybody else noticed thta Rnad is getting REALLY evil?? Elayne and Min and Aviendha are pretty much his only ties to sanity. I think RJ is making him like this so nobody will be TOO upset when he dies at the last battle. Just an idea though.


created: 2001-07-20 18:34:19
subject: <b>Well Done!</b>
body:
I Wholeheartedly agree. The one think you missed, though, is that there is a Borderland army of 200,000(!) men west of Andor. Lan will fly the Crane over them! <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Green Gaidin!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 19:47:22
subject: <b>I agree with above person</b>
body:
That would be the ultimate strategem to bind the North to Rand.  It's funny though, to think that people would have more loyalty to a dead foreign nation than their own.  Shienar and I think Arafel (not sure) have good reason, they would no longer be borderlands, but otherwise...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 13:18:33
subject: <b>Malkeri....</b>
body:
I forget when, but somewhere they said that all of the people who lived in Malkier scatted, and just moved to different Borderlands and other places. So, their loyaly to a dead nation could be because they used to LIVE in that nation.<br /><br />As for Lan NOT raising the Golden Crane banner, theyve hyped it up way too much. Every now and then, when their talking about Lan, they mention the Golden Crane, and how he could raise it, and get an army behind him. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-22 17:25:36
subject: <b>Just something I noticed...</b>
body:
	All of Min's veiwings are thing that are haven't happened yet, right?  Well, in tEotW she was talking to Rand and said when she looked at Lan she saw &quot;seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword&quot;.<br />	Since Min can't see the past, I figure she sees the seven towers because Lan's going to resurrect(sp?) Malkier and the baby with a sword because Lan and Nynaeve are going to have a child and s/he with swear that oath thingy of the kings (queens?) of Malkier... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Maybe I should submit this as a little theory...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />						-Lan_Rocks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-27 17:21:30
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
I'm willing to bet that Lan would raise the banner if Moraine asked him to, or if it were obvious that Malkier had to ride in order to save the day.  As to why Lan hasn't raised the banner yet, I think he doesn't want to get bogged down in the past.  Malkier's been swallowed by the Blight, and there's no getting it back, so why fixate on the impossible?  Except now that Rand is available to do the impossible, there might be a chance.  If Rand offered Lan the opportunity to ressurrect Malkier, with decent odds, Lan might well go for it.  He hasn't yet because he's had no chance before now.<br />BTW, I suspect that Min's viewing of Lan as the sword-holding baby implies that he hasn't fufilled his oaths . . . yet.  That would suggest that he will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 09:24:05
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
At the end of &quot;New Spring&quot; Lan burns the Golden Crane Banner. He is quite resolved in &quot;Eye of the World&quot; that he will not raise it. The Golden Crane Banner would probably only attract people who were already serving in other borderland armies anyway, so what would be the use? Why raise an army at the expense of other armies serving the same cause?


created: 2001-08-11 17:30:41
subject: <b>My thoughts...</b>
body:
I agree it's hardly likely that Lan could raise his own army by virtue of being the last Malkieri heir. Even if he could, somebody pointed out how that would weaken the other Borderland armies, another reason why he wouldn't want to (the first being his resolution to let the past stay buried). <br /><br />On the other hand, I think having the Golden Crane at the van would be a morale boost for the Borderland armies... &quot;The Malkieri died bravely, fighting for their land and the Light. Can we do any less?&quot; <br /><br />And now we have the Border monarchs all going south to take a look at this Dragon guy. I think they'll be a little more positive toward Rand when they find out Lan and Davram Bashere support him...<br /><br />scaledun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-29 21:18:42
subject: <b>kind of topic but....</b>
body:
I am just thinking of Nynaeve's Accepted test.  While I am not sure how much of it is true, I have noticed something.<br /><br />In the test, Nyn is the queen of Malkier, and has an Aes Sedai named Sharina Melloy, and yaddah yaddah yaddah, all that about being married, and stuff.  Now, there is now a woman with the rebels who is named Sharina Melloy, and is a novice, with extrordinary power, and a high likelyhood of becoming AS.<br />I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but if one thing can be true, maybe the Malkier part can be too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 08:08:45
subject: <b>The Crane Will Fly Again</b>
body:
I have never doubted for a second that Malkier would be resurrected again.  Firstly, when Jordan tells you something that seems arbitrary in the beginning of the series is true, true, true, then we all know it will be false, false, false.<br /><br />Secondly, I see WH as being the start of a rocky relationship among Elayne and the as-yet-quiet Borderlands.  Through Nynaeve, who can convice a stone it's a stick, Lan will be coerced into re-raising the Crane to unite the Borderlands once and for all.  As a close friend, former instructor and protector of Rand, he will act as the wetlander general and go-between for a massive army made of Saldeans, Kandori, Arafelans, Shienarans and Aiel (since they don't seem to have much of a beef with the Borderland countries).<br /><br />No one doubts the Borderlands are the fiercest opponents to the Shadow, but PoD showed there is some squabbling going on amongst themselves.  Submitting to Andor will not help this.  Lan will be a necessary link in uniting these countries.<br /><br />Plus, Lan is just too cool to make him only Nynaeve's lapdog and nothing better.<br /><br />GO LAN!<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-06-15 16:40:40
subject: <b>Lan Likes To Keep His Word...</b>
body:
I don't think Lan will fly the Golden Crane. I do think it will be flown again. Who will raise it, then? Simple answer to that question. The person who will raise the Golden Crane banner will be the future Queen of Malkier, Nynaeave Mandragoran (she's not al'Maera anymore now that she's married Lan, is she? Or did Lan marry into al'Maera? &lt;cough!!!&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeave thinks like an Aes Sedai nowadays. If she comes to the logical conclusion that the best way to unite the Borderlands is to raise the Golden Crane, it'd be just like her to take action and raise the bloody banner.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-02 10:33:49
subject: <b>Sure Lan keeps his promises...</b>
body:
...but he even offered to go with Nyn to Tanchico while bonded to Moiraine, if his wife asked him I have no doubt he would raise the banner, after some protest of course <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm also pretty sure it will be Lan who convinces the Borderlanders that Rand is the Real Thing and to do as he says.


created: 2003-04-10 21:03:05
subject: <b>Im with you</b>
body:
<br /><br />      i also love lan to a poit of it not being healthy. but doesn't everyone have a hand built shrine ( that you pray to every night) of Lan al' Mandragoran. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> i would die for that man


created: 2003-05-08 20:30:51
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
No. My shrine collapsed from overuse a while back.<br /><br />I think he should raise Malkier, even if it's just to be more than Nynaeve's b****. Besides, even if it's not before Tarmon Gaidon, once (if?! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) Rand defeats TDO, the Blight'll be driven back some. Once Malkier is no longer Blight real estate, things'll change.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-31 21:22:49
subject: <b>reasons why he might...</b>
body:
i think it will likely happen. it would probably be good for the borderlanders to have one specific leader, which woudl be lan. everyone would follow him. nynaeve could puch him into it. also that pact the borderlords made for whatever, i can't remeber it well so i might be completely confused and off, but couldn't it be something that actually need ALL the living border lords to agree to for it to be valid?


created: 2001-07-20 19:51:56
subject: <b>I've gotta agree with Raserei</b>
body:
Each world has a unique Tel'Aran'Rhiod, the common link is the star-dream universe that Egwene entered in one of books.  That's the place where you enter people's dreams.  She saw stars which she described as something like &quot;not of this world, not quite real, but there nonetheless&quot;.<br /><br />Yes, I have thought on this, even idly wondered if a parallel Rand might die on the rocks of Shayol Ghul (twice dawns the day when he shall die...yep, that covers that prophecy nicely).  But, I still agree with ol' Raz-ma-taz (I can't call you that, can I? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> *insert crosseyed smilie<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 23:14:47
subject: <b>other Rands</b>
body:
This sounds alot like that other theory I wrote about there being other Rands, and also being the first person to prove it falible, there are no other Egwenes, because when Rand traveled to other worlds, through the portal stone on his way to Falme, he was himself in every world, it wasn't going to a mirror world and meeting yourself like in that show sliders.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-07 17:07:02
subject: <b>Right...</b>
body:
And going into the other Rands in the portal stones, it is like the rings of Rhuidian, where they were all possible futures, or Min's viewings of Gawyn and Egwene, either could be the future sort of thing....


created: 2002-02-06 22:07:28
subject: <b>ummmm.....</b>
body:
There is no support nor truth in your post. You sound like my crazy uncle who lives in a cabin in Vermont where he is sure the government in planning agaisnt him. He uses the phrase &quot;It's mind-boggling&quot; too.<br />So keep thinking up your theories and remember the government in controlling you with flu shots.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 17:58:31
subject: <b>(SIGHS)</b>
body:
Poor Manshima has too much time to spare.  All mean and nasty taunting aside, it is too literal a theory.  This is all assuming that Mr. Jordan has plotted out more than one demension.  I don't really think that our beloved Mr. Jordan has intended for the Tel'aran'rhiod paradox to get that complicated.  I do however commend Manshima for the intricacy demonstrated by the theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> tsorovan'mais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> storm maiden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> commander of the lightnings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />keeper of the many series<br />one who take titles too seriously<br />If I balefire it, will it die?<br />                   --the question of the universe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 21:12:52
subject: <b>uhhhh.... right</b>
body:
i have to vote &quot;or not&quot;. I mean, come on, I'm the only Egwene there is. <br /><br />Egwene rocks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 07:17:54
subject: <b>Raserei Hits the Spot</b>
body:
Raserei's response to this theory of &quot;or not&quot; wins the award for best response to any posted theory. It made me laugh out loud.


created: 2003-04-27 14:21:36
subject: <b>3 cheers for Ras!</b>
body:
*hip-hip-hooray* *hip-hip-hooray* *hip-hip-hooray*...Congrats on the shortest, most to-the-point theory response ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-07 23:44:25
subject: <b>I think this may belong in the &quot;Humerous Theories&quot; section</b>
body:
Good on you for having a go however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Photons have mass?!?<br /><br />I didn't even know they were Catholic...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 19:55:01
subject: <b>Interesting, but...no.</b>
body:
I always assumed that opposite source healed severing fully, I find that incredibly obvious.  I don't see anything wrong with your explanation, but I think the reason is much simpler: it just works that way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 23:19:03
subject: <b>both</b>
body:
It seems to me that you wouldn't be complete just from being healed by the opposite sex, you should be healed by both.  I believe that the opposite side of the power to yours fixes the majority, but your personal side would still be needed to get the minority.  Combo's always seem to work better than single sides in wot.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-23 10:35:11
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
Could it be that Nynaeve simply learned the correct way to heal a man and not a woman.  I don't have my books with me to confirm, but I seem to remember her bridging the severing gap with fire... a trait typically stronger for males and/or saidin.  Using this method could in turn allow females (saidar channelers) to again touch the source, but not as fully as before- the &quot;bridge&quot; is repaired, but not correctly... maybe water is needed?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Balefire Crisp<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 05:55:03
subject: <b>Shame, shame Your.Master</b>
body:
Your.Master, by now you should know that with Robert Jordan, nothing &quot;just works that way&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 21:36:28
subject: <b>could a man augment siuan or leane?</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that the opposite source heals severing fully of the other.<br /><br />But could a man heal siuan or leane back to full strength?  Also, if either were severed again and healed by saidar,<br />would they remain the same strength as before the 2nd severing or be reduced even further?  What if it was healed<br />with saidin?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 15:07:45
subject: <b>Further info</b>
body:
Damer Flinn is the Ashaman who is keen on healing and if I recall correctly, in one of the last books he heals the Aes Sedai who got stilled by Rand.  I can't recall whether there is any info as to the sisters' full recovery, but this would certainly place the seal on the theory.


created: 2002-02-16 09:53:43
subject: <b>balancing on a bridge</b>
body:
I think that the analogy of a bridge is the key. When joining Saidin to Saidin a portion of the power going across the bridge would belong to the healer and would use part of the pathway for itself thereby limiting the healing, whereas if someone of the opposite power is doing the healing they are standing on a different pathway and therefore would be able repair the entire bridge rendering it like new.


created: 2002-03-29 23:10:27
subject: <b>not reduced by HEALed by same sex</b>
body:
While the idea that they are reduced because it is burned up in the HEALing seems good, it does not work, when physical injuries are healed &quot;it uses as much of their phyical strength as it does the one power&quot;, they do not permanently lose their physical strength, all they need is rest based on how much healing they had done to them. So if it worked that way Leanne and Suian would gain there power back after a few days or weeks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Swedish Destroyer                            <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> = me)<br />    (i am invisible in the books)<br />PS. Remember the scene in TGH where Lan<br />and Rand are fighting and a wind pushes Rand.<br />That was me, I tripped, sorry, My bad<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 14:04:57
subject: <b>I've posted this before</b>
body:
I've posted this somewhere before.. and it realtes heavily to the Male:female relationships theory what eh teory says is that channelers channel through conduits of the opposite power (women channel through saidin and men through saidar..) now my theory is that if the conduits look a bit like this (m=saidin conduit f=saidar conduit) mfm for women and fmf for men if a woman is healed with saidar her conduit wil leak... therefore giving her less strength....


created: 2002-04-26 20:43:54
subject: <b>Possibilty</b>
body:
Maybe Siune and Leane have not been reduced in power for say but rather have to build it back up.  The way men and women grow in the power is very different so perhaps also is the way they are healed after being &quot;severed&quot; Logain instantly regained his full strength but Siune and Leanne have been reduced but maybe as they channel it will build back up as though they were re-learning how to channel.<br />Also I have never seen where the Aes Sedai Flinn healed did not have any weaking perhaps I missed, but I honestly dont think it has been mentioned.


created: 2002-06-20 11:14:22
subject: <b>On the &quot;leaky conduit&quot; theory</b>
body:
Since, to my knowledge, Nynaeve's Healing is the first use of the Power to deal with the conduit from a person to the Source that others have mentioned, it could be entirely possible that a channeler's Power is lost if he/she is healed by the same sex.<br /><br />It could also be true that some of the Power from the healed person is drained from them and augments the healer's strength in the Power.  The use of the Power on the conduit may divert some of the conduit's flow to the healer.   Since saidin and saidar are dissimilar, the healer could not drain the Power from te opposite sex.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Implication is a strong weapon.<br /><br /><i>People that don't know me</i> think<i> I'm a legend.<br />People that know me</i> know &lt;i&gt;I'm a legend.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-28 10:22:22
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
If we look at the old sympol for Aes Seide it is the Yin Yan with out the dots.  those dots repersent a littel bit of the other forse.  Now RJ did not add those dot to his symbol very posibibaly for the resaon is that the AOL Aes Seide did not under stand fully understad how the one power worked and that little bit of the opisite half resides in each channeler giving them the ability to channel.


created: 2002-10-22 21:25:24
subject: <b>Another Possibility</b>
body:
We know that when Logain was healed, it was Fire and earth that bridged the gap, and we also know that Men are generally stronger in those two elements, would it not stand to reason, that if a woman was healed in much the same way, but with Water And Air, that she would retain and/or gain in strength as Logain did.


created: 2002-11-07 16:38:37
subject: <b>Just one thing</b>
body:
The Asha'man who discovered Healing is Damer Flinn. And the Aes Sedai regained their full strenght. (WH Chap 13:Wonderful news) Verin: &quot;And, well, the fact of it is, he (Damer Flinn) 's gone and Healed Irgain. Cadsuane, it's as she's never been...&quot;. Verin is exited by the discover, I think she'd say if Irgain haven't regain her full strenght. Verin or Cadsuane said later that Irgain, Sashail and Ronaille are as powerfull as before, I can't find the quote, but I'me quite sure of it.<br />Another question: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 04:12:25
subject: <b>I made a mistake</b>
body:
The quote is not from Verin but from Corele.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-30 03:51:30
subject: <b>Things In WOT come in pairs...</b>
body:
It seems like everything in WoT comes in pairs...saidin and saidar...So it would only make sense that the &quot;Conduit&quot; theory would prove to be a viable solution. Again when Siaun was healed she was healed by Nynaeve, and when confronting Bryne afterward,(and I don't remember exactly where), she said something to the effect that her strength was much diminished. Where when Logain was healed he had full strength. Also when Flinn healed the sister that was severed by Rand, she was also returned to full strength. It may just be another way that saidin and saidar complement and complete one another. The two halves of the OP. Although doesn't it seem remarkable odd, that Rand used a &quot;conduit&quot; (or bridge) of Saidar to funnel the taint out of Saidin, in the same book where Nynaeve and Flinn (could have) used a &quot;conduit&quot; (or bridge) to heal the hole. Okham's Razor would coincide with the fact that opposites attract...but then again...this is RJ....hehehe.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-14 02:21:55
subject: <b>Healing stilling</b>
body:
My idea is that Logain was healed by a woman: Nynaeve.<br />Later some Asha'man healed some of the Aes Sedai captured by Rand at the battle of Dumai's Wells. There was no mention by Jordan of loss of strength in those individuals. I think it has to do with the the fact that they were healed by the opposite sex. Question: Maybe if Suian and Leane were re-healed by a asha'man, they would regain thier original strength.


created: 2005-04-23 03:21:18
subject: <b>The tunnel</b>
body:
I think that the reason that when women are healed by women and become weaker is because of a sort of tunnel. I think that to channel the OP there is a tunnel made from the opposite power Saidar/Saidan. So when Logain is healed he has a tunnel of saidar to channel through. TRhe women don't have a tunnel of Saidan but of saidar. Trying to pull saidar through saidar would be like holding the north poles of 2 magnets together. They don't want to work. I think that if Flinn had healed Logain he would have been a lot weaker.


created: 2005-05-02 09:41:54
subject: <b>flows</b>
body:
I think taht the healing being stilled or genteled is not effected just by a man healing a women or vise-versa but the flow they use when Nynaeve Healed Logain she used a flow of fire to connect the two sides and she did the smae for The women, but we know that fire is considered a male power so that could be why Logain was healed better, this could also mean that the Asha'man used a flow of water or air to heal the sister. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Put Signature Here<br />Put Signature Here<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 16:11:18
subject: <b>GREAT</b>
body:
I love you theory about the seals it makes sense! To have the seals not be strengthened all the time means that the forces against it can find a way to overcome it. NICE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 16:36:08
subject: <b>The Seals</b>
body:
The heartstone absorbes damage, every force aimed at it will strenghten the seals. The only way for the DO to weaken the seals is by making the absorb something, pure evil maybe. The evil will slowly break them down. That would explain the odd feeling about them


created: 2001-07-20 16:58:20
subject: <b>Three seals are still intact</b>
body:
Here are the seals; where they were found, and their status:<br />1) At the Eye of the World (broken when it was found)<br />2) in the hands of Bayle Domon, later pilfered by High Lord Turak of the Seanchan (broken at the battle of Falme)<br />3) On Seanchan, part of High Lord Turak's collection (broken at the battle at Falme)<br />4) In the Great Hold at the Stone of Tear (still intact)<br />5) In the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico (broken enroute to Salidar)<br />6) One in Rhuidean (still intact)<br />7) Found by Mazrim Taim on a small farm in Saldaea (still intact)<br /><br />With the exception of Taim's seal, I think these were all used as indicators of if the Shadow was winning:  at the Eye, the Forsaken were freed, hence the broken seal (although two of them WERE killed...).  At Falme, Rand took a hit from Ishamael and did not kill him, but almost died himself; the Shadow still advanced, hence the two broken seals.  The one at the Stone remained intact because both Be'lal and Ishamael died (quite the blow for the Shadow).  The one in Tanchico broke because Moghedien got free.  Rhuidean's stayed because Asmodean lost big-time.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 20:02:03
subject: <b>I've thought of the first before...</b>
body:
and frankly, no.  Domon Bayle's collection hasn't crumbled.  Heartstone is rare, but not 7-of-a-kind.  We'd see other heartstone breaking, OR at least discover broken heartstone.<br /><br />As for the other, I've always thought that.  Except the seals are entirely of saidin.  Which amplifies the taint and probably will help to preserve the seals.  Still, they will be VERY brittle.  If Rand is smart he'd tap one with his finger to build up it's strength until they could hit it with hammers and build it up.<br /><br />The above guy's (or girl's) idea with the Dark One sending a weakening force at it is also good, but it just doesn't ring of truth to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 12:53:54
subject: <b>&quot; Seals &quot;</b>
body:
you FooLz. the ' Seals ' your talking about, are only the things holding the weave down at Shayul Ghul. Since LTT and the Hundred Companions couldnt stay there for the rest of time, holding onto the weave, so they used the seven heartstone pieces as a focal point to keep the weave going. once all 7 seals are broken, the weave is gone, and the Darl One is free to roam WoTLand again ( damn all you ' Randland ' people. damn you all ).<br /><br />There might not be any explination at all as to why they are breaking, other than that the ' Last Battle ' is approaching, and the Pattern is making them weaken. Or, it could be the Dark One's touch, since those would probably be the first things he could touch, since their keeping him bound in Shayul Ghul.<br /><br />Rand isnt going to strenghthn the Seals. Whichever one's he still has, he's going to take to Shayul Ghul, with his Asha'man, Aes Sedai, Seanchan and etc, and he's going to break them. Fel told him you have to clear the rubble before you build. This time, when the Dark One is bound, its going to be with saidin and saidar, and Because of that, it wont have to be a weave that has to be held down. It will be something like the Stone of Tear ( not exactly, but in the way that its something built with the One Power that isnt a weave that has to be held down )<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-22 03:01:00
subject: <b>I could be wrong</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that the seals are holding the weave in place and i think that is exactly <br />the reason they are breaking. When weaves get tied off they become softer and easier to <br />break. Lews Therin told Rand this when Rand was locked in the chest and was cut off <br />from Saidin. The only reason he freed himself was because the Aes Sedai tied off the <br />shield. It took Rand a good bit of time once it was tied off to be able to untie it. <br />When the Hundred Companions tied off the seal on the DO's prison the weave became <br />softer, and after thousands of years the dark one is finally able to untie it.


created: 2001-07-22 06:50:35
subject: <b>the seals ,,,,,..............</b>
body:
1 the seals are crumbling because of the TAINT <br /><br />2 with the cleansing of saidin maybe the seals are all broke , remember the only reason it was tainted was because the seals were layed using only saidin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-22 09:32:11
subject: <b>knave, you are dead wrong.</b>
body:
The DO was never totally released in the Age of Legends.  If he was, he'd never have been re-imprisoned.  Destroying the seals will NOT release the Dark One, nor allow the Forsaken to do so, at least not immediately.  The DO had something like 30 Forsaken working in their spare time to increase the bore and it really didn't help all that much.  Breaking the seals might allow him to affect the world, but he'd be far from free.<br /><br />As for the seals breaking just because the Last Battle is nearing...actually, that could be.  A couple of false dragons were struck down at the moment of Rand's proclaiming for no apparent reason other than the pattern being nasty.  Maybe the pattern is smashing up the seals now, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 06:10:46
subject: <b>and now, Else</b>
body:
ARE YOU CRAZY??????  The seals were made because if the bore was sealed, then tied, the DO would have immediately have broken free again.  The seals were made so that the shield's focal points could be transfered to something to hold them forever, so they would not have to be tied off.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And also, it can't be the DO's evil weakening the seals.  The broken seal found at the EotW was still heartstone in all respects other than it was shattered.  It was not weak at all.  So poo on that theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 16:09:28
subject: <b>Belief and order</b>
body:
Belief and order are what give strenth to the seals. This is what Fel says, and soon after giving the note to Rand he was killed. This is supported elsewhere too.<br /><br />The purpose of Ishy, while he was half imprisoned, was to create as much chaos as possible and to make people lose belief in the Light. When this happens, the seals come to the point of breaking. The response of the pattern is to bring about the rebirth of the Dragon. <br /><br />That is also the reason why the DO commands to let the lord of chaos rule, so that the seals will weaken further and eventually break at pressure.<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-23 16:48:09
subject: <b>seals</b>
body:
i'm fairl sure that 3 seals remain... i could be wrong<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Enin Bar'nast<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 19:46:58
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I generally agree with the theory.  The DO understands (and so does Ishy but I think he has his own agenda) that he/she needs The Dragon and others to &quot;break free&quot;.  Perhaps the &quot;now it seems OK to kill Rand&quot; thing is because The Dragon has done enough of his job for the DarkSide, and may no longer be required.  Overall, a good theory about how it all may play out.<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-21 20:38:29
subject: <b>Scary Thought...</b>
body:
	This theory certanly sounds plausible to me...  It would make for a very surprising ending.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I hope you're wrong though.  I've grown rather fond of Randland (and yes, I like that term).  RANDLAND!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-22 03:44:26
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Moridin helped Rand because he wanted Sammael dead. He and Shaidar Haran had been carefully watching Sammael's business with the Shaido, and Moridin notes how close Sammael is coming to breaking the DO's commands (because he wasn't there in the prologue of book 6).<br />Finally he makes a decision, and he helps Rand to kill him.


created: 2001-07-22 09:17:48
subject: <b>Quote from the Dark One</b>
body:
&quot;Even I cannot step outside of time&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 18:18:10
subject: <b>If time is a wheel, and it has a finite power source...</b>
body:
then wouldn't time eventually come to a standstill even if no one knew how to channel?  If the Source is finite then the DO will win no matter what is done.  Time will eventually stop, and he/she/it will have a free hand.  If that was the case, then why bother doing anything?  The DO could just sit and wait out the wheel.  That isn't the case, or we wouldn't have the Chosen running around.  Just a thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 18:30:22
subject: <b>Stopping the wheel doesn't necessarily stop time</b>
body:
I don't agree that stopping the wheel will necessarily<br />stop time.<br /><br />It could be the case that stopping the wheel will simply<br />stop CYCLIC time (i.e. there would be no more repetitions<br />of the ages).  The WOT world would have LINEAR time<br />(maybe like the real world).<br /><br />It may be the case that the Dark One can touch the world<br />more effectively in a linear time world than in a cyclic<br />time one (i.e. the Dragon IS NOT reborn anymore, events<br />are really different not just slightly differing repetions<br />of past ages).<br /><br />Anyway, just my contribution... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-07-27 17:38:34
subject: <b>I thought that . . .</b>
body:
. . . Moridin helped Rand because of the &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; instructions.  The &quot;go ahead, waste Rand&quot; policy might have been implemented when the Dark One figured out that Rand was going to clense the Taint.  Or it might have gone into effect when the DO decided that too many countries were siding with Rand rather than bickering.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-27 18:42:59
subject: <b>The Theory is Debunked</b>
body:
If the Power is all used up then how will the Dark One be able to manipulate the pattern. To manipulate the pattern he will have to use the power so if doesn't exist he cant manipulate it. Geez, I swear some people come up with the stupidest ideas. No offense, I have come up with some pretty stupid ideas myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JACKAROO<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 23:57:25
subject: <b>Moridin has his own plans</b>
body:
In the prologue of tPoD, at the end Moridin is thinking,<br />&quot;On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game al'Thor already moved to his wishes.  And soon, now.... It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board.&quot;<br /><br />So as you can see, Moridin wants to use Rand al'Thor, up until Rand decides he wants to clean the Source, which is probably why the order to let the Lord of Chaos rule was recinded.  Anyway, I doubt that the Source is finite, I think it's a self replenishing thing, which might mean that even though saidin is now cleansed it may not be in the future, with or without the DO's influence.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 02:43:30
subject: <b>ThE SOURCE COMES FROM THE CREATOR !</b>
body:
If the source was finite then the creaator himself would too be finite. such as the true source comes from the dark one (i.e. when moridin taps in to the true source it says he is drawing directly from the dark one) so it is that the one power is drawn from the creator in a way. So to have the one power run out the creator would have a limited amount of &quot;ENERGY&quot; in a way.


created: 2001-08-20 16:10:19
subject: <b>Links and connections</b>
body:
There a number of aspects which are being ignored throughout this theory and its follow-ups.<br /><br />1) Channelling the True Source cannot stop the wheel of time for a simple reason.  Saidin and saidar work together and against eachother and in doing so drive the Wheel of Time.  Now, if channelling the True Source does not &quot;remove&quot; it from its location in philosophical space, the wheel will keep turning.  Disrupting the WOT would have to be done by an external power such as the True Power or the Dark One himself.<br /><br />2) Moridin does not take any direct action to kill Sammael, and this is something Darkfriends do to further their own purposes.  What Moridin would be more likely to do is fit Sammael with a corsouvra (mind-trap) like he did with Moghedien and Cyndane.  The Naeblis focuses rather on keeping Rand alive.  This is a very different purpose from eliminating Sammael.<br /><br />3) What the Dark One *wants* is for Rand (the champion of the Light) to turn to the Shadow.  Thus the Light would be utterly defeated.  Merely killing the Dragon results in yet another cycle of the Wheel having to take place.<br /><br />These three points however do not clear the issue of Rand playing into the Dark One's plans.  Moridin is clearly shown thinking about the ancient game of shah'rah (sp?) in which he thinks that the game is easy because he is playing both sides.<br /><br />Cheers, my two cents.


created: 2001-09-03 21:25:11
subject: <b>Waterwheel</b>
body:
Achir here makes a very good point.  This is either a simpler way of saying one of the things he said or is something closely related (I'm not sure).  In either the Guide or one of the books (can't remember) it is pointed out that whenever anyone channels a very good analogy to think of is a waterwheel in a river.  The river is Saidin/Saidar and the wheel is the channeler.  No matter how many waterwheels fill a river, the river *never* slows and each waterwheel will still spin as if no other wheels were present.  It clearly states in whatever book this is from that this *is* one of the metaphorical aspects of channeling.  So the One Power can never be used up, unless some outside force acts on it, like the totally free Dark One or maybe a bunch of people using the True Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sei Taer<br />The Basilisk Torm</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-11 18:49:29
subject: <b>Ignoring things</b>
body:
Two flaws strike me, both stem from the author ignoring the conclusion of WH. First, the source is obviously not infinite. If it were, it would be impossible to remove the the taint, since that too would be infinite (it is a film on top, and a film on top of an infinitly large lake would itself be infinite). However, and this is the second flaw, the pool of saidin which can be drawn from is incredibly large. It is said several times that &quot;all the Aes Sedai in the tower&quot; could not draw even a fraction of the power being drawn through the sa'angreal, and Rand drew through it for at least 10 hours. Therefore, even if Rand gathered an army of 10,000 channelers, they could not use up the source. What's more, it can be presumed that after the Power is used in the usual means, it dissipates back to the source. Anyway, I don't think the DO is using Rand to stop the wheel, the books seem to indicate that that's something he will be able to do on his own once he breaks free.


created: 2001-10-20 09:36:00
subject: <b>Choedan Kal</b>
body:
The Source would maybe already be depleated when the Choedan Kal was used... Just a thought =)<br />And plz, don't say something about my english, i live in Sweden =)


created: 2002-02-19 02:03:34
subject: <b>Wouldn't it have been noted in the Age of Legends</b>
body:
When channeling was common.  If enough channeling was going on what one time, wouldn't someone note side effects?  Surely the Forsaken would.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Something in him flickered and died, he didn't know what.  Something.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-02 16:25:47
subject: <b>Waterwheel</b>
body:
The analogy with the water wheel is actually WRONG: the river would slow down slightly, otherwise you would have energy coming from nothing. It would be a very very small change in speed, due to the high weight of water, but it would be there.<br />This is also why wave power is not a good idea as a solution to the worlds energy problems, as too much being drawn from it would stop the ocean currents, and it all the fish would die.<br />Rambled a bit, but whatever...<br />Bladud <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-01 02:39:14
subject: <b>I think not</b>
body:
The DO wants to break the wheel not stop it If he stopped it time and reality would stop and it would be DO v/s Creator all over again. We know who won that contest at the beginning of time and have no reason to think it wouldn't happen again. Plus we all know a circle can't go past 72 I think it is. Seventy someting for sure so no way can everyone link. I can think of many more reasons but that would take all night.


created: 2003-03-14 15:24:00
subject: <b>geez</b>
body:
clearly the one power is finite, because in CoT the aes sedai who checked the residues at shadar logoth said that the amount of saidin used compared to saidar was &quot;dragonmount besides an anthill&quot; (i don't remember the exact words and don't bother checking). since rand pushed all saidin through the tunnel-what-ever-cleaner the amount of one power can be calculated:<br /><br />(nyn-with-choedan)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />dragonmount/anthill)*2=saidin+saidar.<br />nyn-with-choedan=vastly more than all tower combined could channel<br />dragonmount/anthill=a BIG number<br />so the one power is in theory not infinite, but in practise nothing could use more than a tiny fraction of it.<br /><br />so if DO wanted to stop the wheel by using channelers, instead of killing people he should have huge breeding programs and try grow millions of strong channelers.


created: 2003-04-16 23:32:10
subject: <b>dude..</b>
body:
Ok, if this theory is true, then the wheel should have stopped spinning in the age of legends...  seriously<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-slider<br /><br />Yes, Rand al'Thor. I hate you with all of my heart. I do. And I always will.<br />     -Aviendha</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-15 14:50:21
subject: <b>Wheels with OP as fuel. Hydrogen fuel cells?</b>
body:
I would like to repsond to a comment of Jackaroo's. He says, claiming it was a 'stupid' idea, that the DO cant manipulate the pattern without the OP. I think the main reason his post was ignored by most besides me is clear. <br /><br />First of all, the DO doesnt want to manipulate the pattern, thats just a means to an end. He wants to break the Wheel (Moiraine's own words, in tEotW I think, can't bring page to mind sorry).<br /><br />Second of all, the DO doesn't need the OP. He is his own power source. The True Power, hello?<br /><br />Jackaroo: It sometimes bothers me when people flame or 'dis' another person's post and their evidence is wrong themselves... but I won't rub it in. There are too many people like that in the world to get all bent out of shape about it. Check with someone else perhaps when you wanna say something thats very strong !<br /><br /><br />&quot;Courage to Strengthen<br />Fire to blind<br />Music to dazzle<br />Iron to bind&quot;<br />      --said a the beginning of a game of snakes and foxes


created: 2007-03-14 14:48:45
subject: <b>Buuut...</b>
body:
A lake can have an infinite volume without its surface having an infinite area, the taint was on the surface of Saidin. The Dark One did that to ensure that anyone who touched Saidin would get some of the oily slick taint on the surface. And yes the source must be infinite or _eventually_, the wheel would stop and the DO would have what he's waited Ages and Ages and Ages and.....for.


created: 2001-07-23 15:57:47
subject: <b>In answer to one question...</b>
body:
Why doesn't Shadar destroy the seals is a good question (even if he isn't the DO on earth). My guess is that it'd involve taking the Dragon and his cohorts on in direct conflict and thus ruin any element of surprise that he'd have.<br /><br />   Besides which the seals are breaking anyway, so it'd be a risk not worth taking at all since the gains would be not much greater than the loss of surprise.<br /><br />   This idea had occurred to me before, I just never submitted it because I thought that someone else had already done it here (may have seen it on another site though).<br /><br />   I just have one porblems with this theory. Back during the war of the shadow/power Shaitan wasn't able to touch the world directly, he had to use intermediaries like the Chosen. So how then, can the dark one be walking the world even temporarily when even one or two of the seals are in place if he couldn't when the bore was completely open?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 16:16:15
subject: <b>hand of the dark</b>
body:
shaidar haren means hand of the dark doesn't it, maybe it's literal, and he is actually the hand of the darkone, not him fully, just his hand, kinda like thing in the adams family<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-23 17:04:06
subject: <b>Or how about this...</b>
body:
Maybe Shaidar Haran is not the Dark One in corporeal form but is actually a Myddraal whose sole has been imprinted with the essence of the Dark One.  <br /><br />We know that during his indoctrination, Paden Fain was corrupted by the DO himself, making him &#8220;far more dangerous than a mere Darkfriend&#8221;.  If I recall correctly Moiraine concluded that a piece of the DO&#8217;s spirit was empresses upon the man.  <br /><br />Perhaps Fain picked up some nasty new talents from such direct contact with the &#8220;Most Evil of all Beings&#8221; in addition to what he gained from Shadar Logath and his encounter with Manchin' Sin.  This would possibly explain  (some) of the freaky stuff that occured when he tried to kill Rand outside of Cairhien in aCoS. <br /><br />The DO could have done much the same thing to an ordinary Myddraal, augmenting him in physical stature, giving him the power to block Channellers from the Source, and the ability to use the &#8216;Essence of the Shadow&#8217; with which he charred that spear, also in aCoS.  <br /><br />Also examine his words to Osan&#8217;gar &#8220;I obey the Great Lord, no other.&#8221;  It would be a little weird if Shaidar Haran was the Dark One HIMSELF but was sworn to obey HIMSELF.   From his POV in aCoS it&#8217;s seems he thinks of himself as a Myddraal with incredible Gifts, but still a Myddraal. <br /><br />Anyway, I just find it hard to believe that the DO would have the power to break so far free of his Prison as to take on a completely corporeal form without wreaking a whole lot more havoc on the world than just helping Moridin put a Mindtrap on Cydane and Moggy.<br /><br />Just a thought,<br /><br />The Great Lord on the Jon  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2001-07-23 18:01:06
subject: <b>part of him</b>
body:
shidar haran is &quot;the hand of the DO&quot;. thus he acts under direct command of the DO. and in return gets special powers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 22:56:13
subject: <b>I don't think that he is the Dark One</b>
body:
I think that Shadar Hairan can tap the True Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 23:59:55
subject: <b>Not that this is important.</b>
body:
Well here's something that I cooked up on another post enjoy.<br /><br />&quot;Well kill him if you have to, but only if you really REALLY have to. By the way I'm Ishamael reborn. Cyndane used to be Lanfear, Osangar and Arangar were Aginor and Belthalmel respectively, Shadar Haran is the dark one in human form, who happens to have an addiction to candy canes.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Graendal is pregnant, and Moghedien is the father. I'm still trying to figure that one out myself so don't ask me? They'll either name the kid Tylinor Mat for reasons unknown to me. They keep smirking when I ask.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Mesaana just defected to the white tower, she is now a loyal member of the red ajah. I don't know quite what caused this, she just kept babbling about pillows and friendship. I think she's gone round the bend.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;By the way Semihaggeer, semrigaheg, semir, that sadistic broad with the nice figure, called the other night. She's also abandoning the cause of the dark for awhile. It's not that she's become good or anything like that, she's opening up some kind of dance hall or pub or something. She calls it a BDSM club, whatever that means?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Osangar is opening up a new art supply store, and arangar has a new night wear for women shop being contructed next month. Sammael remains to be very freakin dead with odds of ressurection as a man woman or fade being at 23 to 1 against. The odds of him coming back as a trolloc remain at 2 to 1.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;By the way can we please put all those jokes about Demandred to rest? He's gone on record saying many times that he is not disguising himself as Taim. He did his best to prove that it was not a body double that he brought to last months picnic. Can we move on past this now?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Speaking of moving on and putting things to rest will some one please admit that they killed that greasy little punk named Asmo. I mean really we've debated long enough about which of us could or could not have done it, can we please just get this question resolved?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;That completes this months Chosen update. On a final note I can't stress enough that you really should hold off from killing that irritating Al'Thor brat as a last resort. C'mon think of how empty our lives would be if he died before the dark one breaks free, it'd be kind of disappointing don't you think?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 00:35:24
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran is Ishamael</b>
body:
<br /> The main reseason i believe this is because DO always favored Ish and what better place for your favorite than below u in command. He also has the same arogance that Ish has. And i think the reason he hasnot gone after Rand is because he is not at his fullest strength when away from The Bore this is just a personnal theory not really sure myself


created: 2001-07-24 09:12:04
subject: <b>Hmmmmm</b>
body:
Shaidar Haran was the DO's insurance policy but its starting to unravel. Ishy, Bel'al, Rahvin, etc are all dead and Asmodean and Lanfear have turned (coat and mental respectively). He wonders whether his once powerful Chosen are up to the job. Like any good dictator he believes in &quot;divide and rule&quot;. Graendal:&quot;We fought each other as hard as we fought him (the dragon)&quot;.<br /><br />The only problem is the field of competition among the chosen is narrowing dramatically and the DO needs someone trustworthy.<br /><br />The BIG problem is that having given SH some measure of individuality, the Myrrdraal isn't wanting to play along. The bit where he says &quot;That link (to Shayol Ghul) would have to be severed&quot; definitely suggests that it COULD be severed and that he has his own agenda. I think he wants to be Naeblis or already is unbeknownst to the Chosen.


created: 2001-07-24 10:03:47
subject: <b>of course he is</b>
body:
I never doubted Shadar Haran to be the DO. How anyone can is beyond me.<br />I suppose the next thing will be someone claiming that Taim is not Demandred...<br />hahaha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br />oh, well.<br />nice to have a good laugh now and then<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 10:58:40
subject: <b>Just a quick note...</b>
body:
The DO could NEVER come bodily into the world.  Even when the bore was fully open, all it allowed was &quot;For the DO to reach his hand out and touch the pattern.&quot;  The fact that Shaidar Haran is his HAND means that the patch on the bore is weak enough that he can start directly touching things again.  Again, the DO cannot PHYSICALLY be in the world.  He can fight through proxies, or in some kinda power form, like at Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 15:14:13
subject: <b>The Word We're Looking for is &quot;Avatar&quot;</b>
body:
I think the word everyone's looking for here is &quot;avatar&quot;.  The Great Lord of the Dark is obviously a hideously powerful force whose true form would be beyond human comprehension and perhaps beyond the ability of mere matter to replicate.  If it were otherwise, we would have heard about Lews Therin and the Companions fighting against the Great Lord of the Dark, rather than sealing the Bore.  The point is that he can touch the world from the point where his prison touches the Wheel of Time, and Shaidar Haran is a physical representation of that growing power.  To use the Hindu parlance for such things, he is an &quot;avatar&quot; of the Great Lord.  He's not the only physical manifestation of the Great Lord, but he is a very powerful one.<br /><br />The reason he looks like a Myrddraal is because the Great Lord needed to use a vessel to manifest his wishes in a form other than ALL CAPS PAINFUL SPEECH TEARING THROUGH THE HEADS OF ALL AROUND HIM.  He wants a more subtle way of working his magic (taking the caps lock off, so to speak).  <br /><br />Ad maiorem Shaitanis gloriam!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 15:39:45
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran thinks for himself</b>
body:
For one, we've seen the DO talking with a forsaken and SH standing beside.  But an avatar could do that.<br /><br />For another, we've seen Shaidar's POV.  He seems to want away from the DO, IMO.  And anyway, why wouldn't the Dark One just TELL the Forsaken that Shaidar Haran was him?  It would make for a lot more evil efficiency.<br /><br />I like the idea of him being Ishamael, the only problem is that I'm convinced that Moridin and Moridin alone is Ishy.<br /><br />No, I think the Superfade is just himself, with access to SOME sort of shadow power - most likely the True Power, but also possibly Padan-Fain like physiological restructuring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 20:32:25
subject: <b>I generally agree...</b>
body:
At first I thought SH was Ishy (brought back as a form of punishment) but now I tend to think SH is some &quot;form&quot; of the DO.  Actually, after reading the quotes and summaries above, I am more convinced (especially the &quot;HAND&quot; thing about the DO's &quot;hand&quot; touching the world is very RJ-like).  After all, how much &quot;power&quot; does the DO really have?  I tend to think he/she is not that far above Rand/Ishy and needs the intervention of mere mortals to break free and reek havoc on the world.  As a final note, perhaps it is not directly the DO who could make a living Hell on Earth, but those simple, ape-like mortals I mentioned earlier can do a great job of it if pointed in the right direction.<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-07-27 17:52:34
subject: <b>Things I like, things I don't</b>
body:
I like the avatar idea, especially the &quot;caps lock off&quot; analogy.  <br />Raserei, you're wrong on a point or two.  Lord Savaunt was right when he said that Shaidar Haran taking on the Dragon would be a little too difficult.  After all, two of the three seals still extant are either in Rand's hands (the one Taim gave him) or under his protection (in the Stone of Tear).  The third's in Rhuidean, which I suspect is a little beyond the Superfade's capability.  <br />I do think you're right that the DO wouldn't play errand boy for his own Forsaken, but the avatar theory would fit here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-17 20:56:50
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran and Moridin</b>
body:
What is to prevent Moridin from actually being a Myrddraal?  After all, he exclusively uses the True Power.  We already know that Myrddraal are incapable of channeling the One Power, so this would explain his use of that rather than saidin or saidar.  Finally, to my knowledge, we haven't actually seen the two in the same place.  All he would have to do is use some illusion to disguise himself.  This would also eliminate the problem of co-Naeblis.


created: 2002-03-12 03:22:21
subject: <b>Sorta . . .</b>
body:
I largely agree that Shaidar Haran, in one way or another, is the Hand of the Dark One.  This theory can be supported by his unwavering loyalty to the Dark One and that he appears in the vessel of a Myrdraal, a being without human emotion or agenda.<br /><br />To say SuperFade IS the DO is a little too simple, tho.  I too believe the DO cannot physically enter any of the worlds, and I believe he is an all-encompassing force which cannot fit into the confines of a physical body.<br /><br />Moridin is likely Ishmael, and the other Forsaken seem to regard him with familiarity, but his insistance that he is Nae'blis, even if &quot;just for now,&quot; is a result of his madness.  He is only teamed up with SuperFade at the moment because he is behaving himself.  But, sooner or later, like all humans (mortal or immortal) associated with the Dark, his greed will be his undoing.<br /><br />Sometime soon there is going to be a showdown between SH and Moridin.  And I'll be there to read it.<br /><br />-Braidtugger<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-13 16:32:36
subject: <b>crap</b>
body:
i kinda like this but the books never specified wether or not he could stay away from the pit of doom for long periods of time<br />read darth oz's theory though its great<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&#197;&#167;h&#197;m&#197;n                          <br />&#163;&#197;Z&#197;&#174;&#220;&#167;   &#8224;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 12:26:57
subject: <b>GOOD</b>
body:
Good theroy. goes with the fact that SH is there every time someone is at shayol ghul <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Courage is not the lack of fear,<br /> but the conquest of it.                      <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Blade Master Vin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> V. Cyr <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 19:53:45
subject: <b>Complicated</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Although we know for a fact the the Dark One cannot touch the world completely we do know he can have a big effect (the weather for instance). I personally like to think that Shaidar Haran is the Dark One (albeit not the complete imbodyment). The best evidence I have for this is when Demadred traveled to the Shayol Ghul. &quot;&quot;Jagged spikes jutted from the ceiling, stoney teeth ready to snap shut, the Great Lord's teeth to rend the unfaithful or the traitor.... Abruptly, he noticed something. Everytime he had made this journey, those spikes had all but brushed his head. Now they cleared the Myddraal's [Shaidar Haran] by two hands or more. That suprised him.... The Great Lord gave his reminders to Myrddraal as well as men. That extra space was to be remembered.&quot; (page 3 of Lord of Chaos). This paragraph implies that the Great Lord of the Dark trusts Shaidar Haran COMPLETELY. Even the Chosen who have no choice but to continue to support the Dark One completely are not trusted. This implies that The Dark One has complete control over Shaidar Haran. To me this implies that he (the dark one) either is using compulsion (unlikely) or that he in some way is Shaidar Haran (that explains why he why he can't stay far from Shayol Ghul and why a Myddraal has so much power). In addition there have been claims that since Shaidar Haran can cut people off from the source that he must channel (the true power). However we are pretty sure that myddraal can't channel and from Moghiedan's observations (since Moirdin can channel the true power she assumes he can channel saidin) Shaidar Haran shouldn't be able to use the true power (of course he is a pretty weird fade so this might be a super-fade power). What is more likely (I think) is since The Dark One controls the Forsaken's channeling ability (through their bond with him) that he can cut them off at will. So if Shaidar Haran is the Dark One shielding a forsaken would be easy. I'm sure there are arguments against these claims and I'd love to hear them. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-02-05 15:00:04
subject: <b>perfectly obvious what he's not, anyway</b>
body:
SH is not the Dark One. He's the HAND of the Dark One. Think about this for a moment, those of you who are also LOTR fans who've read the Silmarillion - Sauron was not the real big baddy. His master was Melkor, but had been banished and locked up by his brothers and sisters, the lovely Valar. Sauran was his deputy, his second-in-command, much as the Nae'blis would be to the Dark One. He wasn't Melkor himself, but was so totally evil and above everyone else in Melkor's good books that he practically was him. I don't know WHO Shadar Haran is, but he's not the Dark One. Favoured of the DO, yes, chosen by the DO, yes, imbued (sp?) with power by the DO, probably, but the DO himself? no.


created: 2004-11-03 21:58:42
subject: <b>not much to add</b>
body:
Just wanted to say<br />Damn! Voice of Lews Therin is really smart!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/33828.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>Ka mate! Ka mate! <br />Ka ora! Ka ora!<br />Ka mate! Ka mate!<br />Ka ora! Ka ora!<br />Tenei Te Tangata Puhuru huru<br />Nana nei tiki mai <br />Whakawhiti te ra <br />A upa ne ka up ane<br />Upane, Kaupane<br />Whiti te ra<br />Hi!</i></font><p><a href="http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&amp;NR=1" target="_blank">Haka from the Good Times</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 15:13:38
subject: <b>I would agree, but...</b>
body:
...it appears that Jordan is only intending to write 3 or more books in the series.  If they introduced this plot line in earlier, I could see it working...to me, I would need at least 3 books to have that kind of plot thread come to a satisfactory ending.  This makes me think that while that army may be the Whitecloaks, I don't think that Elayne will honor the treaty.  I believe that she will find out about Morgase succeeding the crown to Elayne before she signed the treaty right around the time Galad finds about the liberties taking with his mother...heads will roll, &quot;humiliations galore!&quot;<br /><br />I just don't think there is enought time in the series to tackle something as big as a Whitecloak occupying force in Caemlyn.  Great idea, though.


created: 2001-07-24 15:26:31
subject: <b>It was only 2 more books at book 6</b>
body:
Interesting theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 16:32:24
subject: <b>I thought....</b>
body:
I thought the armies marching on Caemlyn were coming FROM the east, indicating the direction of Cairhein (sp?), not Ghealdan.  <br /><br />On the other hand, the armies might have been marching TO the east indicating they could be from Ghealdan. <br /><br />I guess I need to re-read.  Clarification, anyone?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> The Mysterious one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS. I no mi spelin ain't two gud. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


