# w_comment

created: 2005-06-18 19:19:34
subject: <b>Its cyclical like this</b>
body:
Song/stedding goes into decline giving rise to the birth of <br />channeling. <br /><br />Channeling gives rise to power related tech and a fairly utopian lifestyle. But also leads to a desire for more power. And eventually a detection of the thinness of the pattern around the DO prison and eventually the Bore.<br /><br />The DO influence results in chaos and eventualy a general fear of Channelers Remember the bore began rands age. According to theory the DO must be sealed away again in a prison that is at least as intact as it was before the bore else there would be no way for society to return to an age where the DO is not remembered. The result of the devestation of TG leads to furhter distrust of those who touch the OP and a way to stop them from Channeling and eventually boreing into the prison again.<br /><br />According to theory eventually the power of song is discovered and a way to shield (much like the stedding) the source from channelers is developed. Maintenance of such shield eventually wanes giving rise to channeling again.<br /><br />We have evidence of the power of Song from the Ogier and the Aiel in Rands vision. However this power is not explained. The sung wood is about all that can be done now and even that is rare among the ogier. The BWB says that Ogier were nearly as populace as humans but they are tied to the stedding. The breaking furhter exacerbated this condition.<br /><br />The whole point being is that the destructive influences in future and past ages and cause for the birth of channeling is lost to history and will be again.<br /><br />After the DO's prison is sealed the most likely course of events will not be another age of legends it will most likely be an age where we see the use of the power decline based on the general fear of a new Bore. Wars will be fought a solution to channeling will be found and then at some furter date probably 2- 3 ages in the future this solution will fail giving rise to channeling which will be seen as a gift or a savior from conditions as they currently exist.<br /><br />And the thing starts over.<br /><br />The stedding and the power of the songs have always bothered me as being out of place in a channeling world.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 19:37:49
subject: <b>Meh....</b>
body:
I think that their is more than just 3 or so ages...and I don't think Rock-Paper-Scissors would work. If so, where was the time of 'forgotten channeling' between AOL and the 3rd Age, if it is such a cycle?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 21:33:46
subject: <b>Two major problems</b>
body:
1- Since Ogier are bound to <i>steddings</i>, how come they only appear in Ages where the <i>stedding</i> are breaking apart?<br /><br />2- Aside from cutting off channeling, <i>stedding</i> induce a sense of peace, contentment. If we are currently in a world-wide <i>stedding</i>, why are we not all feeling peaceful and contented?<br /><br />Bonus- Since we've dawned on an age of space exploration, how far do you suggest this <i>super-stedding</i> reaches?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 23:00:39
subject: <b>still seems like a big problem</b>
body:
i asked what happened to &quot;rock&quot; and &quot;paper.&quot; you rewrote the theory in different words and posted that as an answer. it didnt help much. im still confused as to what happened to the world-wide stedding and song between the bores. and, on a slightly different note, i doubt it could be correctly stated that the majority of the population in randland doesnt remember the DO. some dont believe in him, but they are pretty much all familiar with the idea of an exisisting evil being. so, are you going to answer this time, or just rephrase your theory?


created: 2005-06-19 00:24:23
subject: <b>what about the dinosaurs</b>
body:
In the palace in tarabin, where they found the male a'dam there was a large dinosaur skeleton wasn't there? How does this fit in with the supposed cyclical nature of the wheel?<br /><br />I'm of the oppinion that just because the wheel is cyclical it doesnt mean thats each age will be identical. If each corresponding age were identical then how are dinosaurs gonna come back? I believe there are simmeralities between the corrseponding ages however not neccesarily the ability to channel or lack thereof.<br /><br />trying to make some more sense. Just because in a previous age people could not channel we cannot presume that this will be the case when the age rolls around once more.


created: 2005-06-19 18:12:39
subject: <b>Interesting theory...</b>
body:
But learn to spell.<br /><br />Fanatic:<br />We wouldn't notice that we feel so contented because the feeling is always there.  We are accustomed to it.  And why couldn't a <i>stedding</i> extend infinitely?<br />And who ever said that the world of WoT is the same one we're on?  Tolkein set his story on Middle Earth, but WoT may have nothing to do with our planet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gone from these forums....</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-20 06:14:44
subject: <b>Too many flaws</b>
body:
To the person above me, RJ has in fact said that WoT is our world, we have simply forgotten channeling.  This is one of those ages where people don't remember it.<br /><br />Also, if there are no beginnings or endings to the WoT, how can there be a Creator?  I believe he creates the world anew after it ends at the end of the seventh age.  This is the simplest explanation of why there is no memory of channeling in the age before the AoL.<br /><br />And the Song doesn't bring peace &amp; happiness.  That is the Tinkers' pacificistic justification for their absolutely pathetic existence.  Remember a theme of WoT is how strongly people can follow mistaken beliefs and errors, and how the truth gets distorted as it passes from mouth to mouth.  Just because some people believe something doesn't make it true in the least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 14:37:58
subject: <b>huh??</b>
body:
Jordan has said our world is randland where did he say that?  Sounds way to much like some sort of sudeo religon nonesense...it's FICTION people!!!


created: 2005-06-21 18:28:41
subject: <b>ok I cant take this any longer</b>
body:
This is probably like my first post ever on the blackboard or a message board on wotmania. I remember posting prodection for CoT a long time ago but that time is past. This has nothing to do with theory I just felt like I should mark the occasion. Since Ive managaged to go so long with out posting a message. While I stayed a member.<br /><br />Randland may indeed have parellels to our world. Some of the character even get their inspiration from some of our mythologies. Some characters/events/main themes of  this fictional book may even resemble those in the real world. Having stated that. I will now state &quot;That in no way whatsoever regardless of who says it does that mean tWoT series is our world&quot;. Because it isn't. It is fiction, not reality. It is a work of prose detailing one mans FANTASY. Now that that is out of the way. I have several isssues with your &quot;theory&quot;<br /><br />1.There is only one way I know of that could remove channeling in the fashion necessary. That is the stedding. Now we know that in AOL male AS fled to Stedding to hold off the taint but they were unsuccessfull as the memory of channeling drew them back. <br /><br />I seem to rember there being something in the books about why there were so few female Aes Sedai. I think they said they might have been culling the ability to channel out of mankind. Why can't the ability to channel be exterminated. I think once the ability to channel is gone out of mankind. The memory of channeling wont be far behind in following.<br /><br />2.We also know that during the AOL Ogier were far more numerous and stedding most likely more readily availabe. <br /><br />Nothing to really disagree with right here in this part of your paragraph.<br /><br />3.Now here is the good part what there were a way to extend the stedding to the entire planet. <br /><br />I don't even understand this sentence right here.<br /><br />4.My thought is that the Song the Tinkers seek is in some way connected to this thought. Some power in some way connected connected to the Aiel, Ogier and Song is capable of producing a stedding effect beyond the current stedding. <br /><br />Oh yes here we go, this thought you have is completly baseless. Nothin written in the book supports this ideal. Using this ideal/thought you could reason how the Ogier could stay out of the stedding so long. i.e. Because the ogier were able to sing the Song with the Aiel and the Greenmen people(I can't rember what they were called and I have no books handy at present.) They could stay out longer. Even this is drawing it out. But anyway the other creatures involved in the singing the nymphs or something. They are constructs of the power. Living beings that were created by the power and use the power. Thus the Song is a thing that used the one power. You see the other creatures when Rand is in Rhuidean and sees through his ancestors eyes.<br /><br />If the Song uses constructs of the power that use the power. Then how does the song produce this &quot;stedding&quot; effect you want for your &quot;theory&quot;? It doesn't beside no one can sing forever just on and on. Another point against your theory in my book.<br /><br />My biggest bone though is that you just didn't draw anything from the books or if you did; you failed to show the reader where or how you were drawing your conclusions. I can't even tell if you took this theory seriously. A lot of these theories that have a high number of NO votes compared to YES votes all have the same problem. They function on the What If factor. The What If facotr makes me say WTF. To much WTF in a theory makes me say Oh this is as useful as the taint on saidin. There was a lot of WTF in your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Here's Homer Simpson. His Boy Bart. Daughter Lisa. His Wife Marge.-Me<br />If you need to contact others like yourself be on the corner of Needle Street and Mol Hara Square at High.-Cannoli<br />It's Marge, his wife not his wife Marge.-Morambar</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 19:08:34
subject: <b>RJ has, indeed, stated that this world is WoTworld.</b>
body:
We would probably be the first Age.<br /><br />Anyway, I think that if we lived in a worldwide <i>stedding</i>, we would have felt it. I can hardly believe we'd adapt to the <i>stedding</i> in every way except channeling. It just seems like a masking tape to stick a ramshackle theory together. I applaud your ingenuity, but this is just a melting pot of assumptions. You have no basis at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-22 10:26:59
subject: <b>steddings stink</b>
body:
The concept of a world wide stedding kind of sucks ,peaple that can channel will miss the abillity,and that my friend will drive the bad guys/girls to drill again but they will know what they are in for this time and be more willing and able to get the things thay want from the relationship ,because there perpose will be only to set him free .I am not sure but was it ever said that the bore was drilled with the OP? I dont think so. I think that when you take away a god given right to use the OP you might as well still or gentle the AS.They will miss the abillity .THAT SUCKS!and the op is in the pattern and the TP it drives the wheel.I suspect that singing and all of the other special gifts that peaple have are also connected to the OPor TP trhough we may not see the connection i think it will all come together in the end.you cant take away what is , when things are perfect we we have to be human and screw them up.Let us learne to laugh and cry again.


created: 2005-06-18 23:10:58
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
it makes complete sense. well though out theory. i wish they all make this much sense. good job.<br /><br />i would like to point out, however, that ingtar could be said to have come back to the light at the end of TGH. we know he was a darkfriend and ashamed of it, and he pretty much told rand this and that he might be able to redeem himself by Sheathing the Sword to help rand, mat, perrin, and hurin all get away.<br /><br />other than that, good job.


created: 2005-06-19 04:35:06
subject: <b>the FAQ you use as a reference doesn't seem all too constistant</b>
body:
it thinks firstly that the ghosts are all DarkFriends, which unless a massive percentage of So Haborers are DFs, then this couldn't be possible. then it theorises that it was because they died violent deaths, but again the So Haborers couldn't all have died violent deaths...unless unknown to us all So Habor is just one of those wierd villages where everyone is a DF and sacrifice each and....stuff<br /><br />anyway, i think the DO has modicum of control over ALL souls, DF or otherwise he wouldn't be much of a Lord of the Grave. my main argument for this is that Ishamael told Rand that if he wouldn't serve in life, he would die and the DO would have his soul forever and as such the DO would &lt;have&gt; him. i realise this could be a lie, but then Ishamael proceeds in attempting to kill him, why do this unless it's known that the DO could have his soul after death? *glares at those who say it was because ishy was as mad as a march hare*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 06:05:45
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
sounds like its right....mabey we will learn somthing more in the next two pre-series books<br /><br />and i belive the D.O only has control the dead only if they r dark friends and the whole die and u will still serve me thing is just scare tactics and ishy was a bit more then mad but not now that he is reborn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..........what?.....STOP LOOKING AT ME!!...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 06:21:45
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I think Tam knew about Rand all along, he's an intelligent man of the world. He got tired of killing (&quot;he paid entirely too much for the heron mark sword&quot; from EoTW somewhere), wanted a simple life.<br />Kari was a typical Randland woman who hated killing and violence and he was a typical Randland man and did what she wanted coz he loved her. <br />She died from a fever as people often do, without a good health service.<br />As for her being controlled by the Dark One after her death, the Lord of the Grave, who can touch anyone that has died. Numerous quotes across the books say that he can control Rand once Rand is dead but would rather have him alive. Could be a lie I spose, but he is Lord of the Grave.<br />Kari was not a darkfriend, Tam was just a love sick fool who gave up fighting for a simple life with a woman he loved in the country.<br />Doubt he was instructed by any Aes Sedai, he's just a clever fella.


created: 2005-06-19 13:27:46
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
It's a nice story, but you've offered absolutely nothing to back it up. So no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 15:14:41
subject: <b>Man i love it....</b>
body:
That would explain alot. But theres also the possibility that Tam is a very minor character that will probably never show up again to be a part of a major storyline so he didn't set up as much background story for tam. But if that is the case, that would be great. Only problem is that there was such a horrible response to NS:The Novel that its also a possibility that Jordan might not write the last two novellas. I thought that it was good and i want the other two to be written...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 15:27:58
subject: <b>Some more evidence against ...</b>
body:
The following is from an interview with RJ, as listed in our illustrious FAQ:<br /><br /><b>Tam has basically put together all the stuff he's heard, and knows that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, although he hasn't admitted it to himself yet.</b><br /><br />From this, we can infer that Tam did not suspect Rand's destiny when he found him, or learn about it prior to the events of TEotW.  It seems that since Rand left with Moiraine, Tam has heard the rumors of Rand being the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 17:54:36
subject: <b>We don't know enough about Kari to make that kind of judgment.</b>
body:
Most people assume that the Kari from the end of TEotW was real because she thanked Rand before disappearing, but I don't think that's conclusive.  That entire scene took place in T'A'R (or some place very much like it), meaning that Rand's mind was probably affecting events as much as Ishy's was (something that I think Ishy was probably counting on).  If the Kari from that scene were a T'A'R construct, she would thank Rand because in Rand's mind, that's exactly what his real mother would do in that situation.<br />Most importantly, when has it been established that one of the Forsaken can actually yank someone's soul back into the world for a chat with the living--or that you can free said soul from the Shadow simply by whacking some imaginary Fade with a glowing sword?  Even the Dark One seems to have very limited control over the souls of the dead (regardless of whether they were bound to him), and one could argue that the DO himself (never mind Ishamael) could not summon up Kari's soul so long after her death.<br />I guess what I'm saying is that while your theory may still be correct, Kari's 'appearance' in TEotW is hardly rock-solid evidence for it.


created: 2005-06-20 07:00:43
subject: <b>Heavily flawed</b>
body:
Tam al'Thor likely knew Rand would be at the center of world's woes. <br /><br />RJ said he knows deep down inside, but he doesn't really want to put the peices together<br /><br /><br />* He might have simply been tired of war, but it's hard to imagine retiring in poverty and obscurity: chances are, a high-placed commander would be given a state pension or even a minor nobility title. In the books, you don't see other senior officers tilling the land. (E.g. Gareth Bryne, although he was born noble.)<br /><br />HAH!  You really are naive about how soldiers are treated.  Ask any military man from an unpopular war or even the popular ones.  Prior to 9-11, soldiers were openly condescended to in the media.  A retiring officer who is moving to another country is of little to no interest to a nation that has just fought a costly war.<br /><br />* In the 'Eye of the World', Moiraine, and Nynaeve, too, are surprised how easily Tam agreed that Rand had to leave. This despite being too weak to ask any questions! Moreover, Tam had much trust for the Aes Sedai's truthfulness, if not motivation. He had likely dealt with the Aes Sedai before.<br /><br />As I said above, he is intelligent and put together the pieces. He accepted that there was something up with Rand, and most people know that Aes Sedai aren't canibals or Darkfriends.  If he had all the reasons you listed to be paranoid, there is no way he would let his kid go off with a stranger who arrived with the Trollocs.  Come on, you argue that he won't marry lest a Darkfriend get access to Rand (without ever warning Rand to be careful of other TR folk), but it's okay to let some strange woman carry him off?<br /><br /><br />* The fact that Tam's biography had remained hidden from most of the Two Rivers folk hints that he wished to hide his outside world identity.<br /><br />He just didn't see that he had done anything important or worth talking about in the Two Rivers.  Jordan has been similarly close-mouthed about his Bronze Star in Vietnam.<br /><br />In WoT FAQ (see http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/1_dark/1.6_beasties/1.6.3_ghosts.html) there's a good indication that Kari might have been a darkfriend, at least briefly (and the books are full of references that no one ever was too deep in the shadow to come back to the light.) <br /><br />Bah.  This is not a good indication.  If she had come back to the Light, she would not have been in the Dark One's hands.<br /> <br />* That she was likely in Ba'alzamon's power as a dead soul, and hence an ex-Darkfriend (see the FAQ link) and that she did love Rand<br /><br />Um, you're saying then that only satan-worshippers go to Hell?  The generally agreed upon idea is that immoral or flawed people go to Hell as punishment for their actions.  That was what I felt &quot;Kari&quot; was referring to when she said that she tried to walk in the Light but it was hard.  She simply didn't lead as good a life as she should have.<br /><br />* That Tam has refused to re-marry after her, despite the multitude of good candidates (and the pressure from 'goodwives' for him to do so) <br /><br />Or maybe, Two Rivers women were too unsophisticated for him.  He had seen a great deal more of the world, and his values had changed to the point where he didn't think he needed a woman living with him unless he had a good reason to marry her.  Remember Rand's assesment of Morgase from a TR perspective: That she was so good-looking that if she had been a widow in the TR, she'd have plenty of suitors even if she was the worst cook &amp; housekeeper.  Two Rivers people seek mates based on their qualities as a domestic partner as much as for social reasons or physical attraction, but Rand was saying Morgase was so overwhelmingly attractive that she would cause men to propose to her regardless of her domestic abilities.  There was a saying from after World War I about returning soldiers: &quot;How do you keep them on the farm after they've seen Gay Paree?&quot;  Tam has been out in the world and is no longer content to share his life with a woman chosen for her cooking ability.  The Two Rivers is a close-kit community, and he undoubtedly knows most of the eligible women well enough to know whether or not they can be trusted, and at the same time, he knows that he can live alone with a woman's help.  Expanding horizons liberates men as well as women, and we &quot;need&quot; them about as much as a fish needs a bicycle.<br /><br />One conjecture which would connect the dots is this:<br /><br />As you say, one conjecture.  Even if one accepts your facts given above, they can be interpreted in many other ways.<br /><br />* Tam learned of Rand's fate, likely through rumors of Gitara's foretelling (recall how in New Spring relatively detailed rumors were floating around.) <br /><br />These rumors were floating among initiates of the White Tower.  I would be truly suprised if anyone else knew about it.  Even if the servants picked up on it, I doubt that anyone who works for Aes Sedai keeps their job long if they start gossiping about sisters, especially in connection with their deaths.<br /><br />He may have even come across Suian, Moiraine or another Searcher (e.g. Cadsuane) and received explicit instructions - this would explain how Moiraine showed up in the Two Rivers just in time (when Rand might begin channeling around age 18 -19) (recall how Moiraine tells Lan in Eye of The World that she thought they had stolen some time on the Shadow, but the Shadow had found out)<br /><br />But by the time they were done compiling the lists, he had already left the army.  Moiraine had in her notebook that he had taken discharge.  So if he quit and ran because of Rand's fate, he knew and was gone well ahead of any Searcher.<br /><br />* Unfortunately for Tam, he was not the only one. His wife, Kari, was recruited by the Darkfriends and made to set up a plot, possibly without a clear understanding of it (I don't believe she married to him AFTER becoming a DF - more likely, she was promised immunity to her adopted son and went over to the Shadow)<br /><br />You offer no evidence of justification for this sequence, merely operating on some flimsy evidence that she may have been a Darkfriend at some point in her life.<br /><br />* Once in the Two Rivers, with his wife dead and with the knowledge of her transformations, Tam steps carefully, hiding his identity and deciding against another marriage: he doesn't know who might be a darkfriend; safer to raise Rand alone.<br /><br />As I said above, the Two Rivers is too close a community for this to work.  Tam &amp; Rand are involved and active in their communities, which gives other Two Rivers folk too much access to Rand.  If one of them is a DF, they still have too much access to Rand, especially if Tam hasn't told him anything.  If they have to be paranoid, but there is no way they can help coming into contact with people, you have to tell a 19 year-old something.  If he doesn't know who they can trust, why allow him to form a relationship and eventually marry a girl notable among Two Rivers people for her ambition?<br /><br />* His fears were justified: the shadow has found out and struck, also when Rand would be ready to manifest as a channeler! Ba'alzamon may well have tortured Rand's whereabouts from Kari's soul (see the FAQ link above.)<br /><br />The Shadow found out through an outside peddler. If there were TR darkfriends, they could be called upon to confirm things rather than Fain.<br /><br />One side benefit of this explanation: it seems to be the kind of material that RJ would have saved for his planned Novella about Tam. By the way, we haven't yet seen anyone come back to the Light from the Shadow, despite many hints that it was possible. Kari sounds just like the candidate.  <br /><br />He has said the next two Novella's happen between New Spring &amp; Eye of the World.  Tam's done by then.  In New Spring he had already quit and gone home to be a farmer.  There is no indication he had any adventures from then on.  As for characters coming back to the Light, what about Ingtar?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 05:05:07
subject: <b>It's a nice idea but not belivable</b>
body:
If Kari was a darkfriend and knew about Rand, why did the shadow look for all three boys? I mean the shadow should know his name or at least be able to figure it out.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2005-06-21 12:12:22
subject: <b>I agree with Madmax</b>
body:
Even if Kari died relatively early, she could still have given the Shadow Rand's name.  Moreover, the Shadow would have known that Tam was the father of the boy brought from the outside (as the Dragon had to be reborn on Dragonmount -- a fact the DO was aware of).  <br /><br />This does, of course, raise the question as to why Fain never tried to figure out which of the 3 boys suddenly showed up in Emond's Field one day.  Surely the old Wisdom would have been around for or known of the births of Mat and Perrin.  <br /><br />If Kari had been a DF, however, she could have easily passed this information on to her higher-ups.  This would have obviated much of Ishy's confusion over who was who.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-06-22 00:59:34
subject: <b>don't for get the Whitecloaks</b>
body:
Remember that Tam had very good reasons for becoming an obscure farmer in the back end of nowhere. His name was very well known to the Whitecloaks, he was the second in command of the Companions of Illian, who had fought the Whitecloaks. I am sure that everyone who commands troops against the Whitecloaks is on a list somewhere in the Fortress of the Light. He probably went home as quietly as he could, and sunk himself into obscurity on purpose. He didn't even live in the village, but way out in the back end of nowhere. Certainly he didn't want to lead a squad of Whitecloaks into the Two Rivers, unlikely as that would be.<br /><br />If Tam had known anything about Rand's future, I think he would have spent some time training him, in the sword at least, and probably in the reality of the outside world. In fact, Rand was as ignorant as any boy nearby.<br /><br />As for why he didn't remarry, well, ask any married man about that! Marraige has its plusses and minuses, he may just have thought spending the next 40 years arguing with a Two Rivers woman not worth his aggravation. A middle aged man with a young son, on a remote farm probably wouldn't rate very high for most women anyway, so he wouldn't get much of a choice. Tam isn't the kind of man to settle for third best.<br /><br />About Kari, we know next to nothing except he eye color! Anything beyond that is pure unsupported speculation. I even doubt that it was Kari's soul on display in the EOTW. Just some victim or an illusion.<br /><br />Ishamael certainly didn't know exactly where Rand was, nor much useful info at all. He had to use his sniffer Fain to search for traces of taveren, which left him still confused because there were three in the Two Rivers.<br /><br />I vote no.


created: 2005-06-22 03:20:05
subject: <b>I also vote no.</b>
body:
I disagree with this theory, mainly for the reasons Cannoli listed.   Cannoli and the previous posters already addressed most of my points so I will just add some things I wanted to stress.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />First off, I voted no but when I checked the rating, it's approval actually went up.  O_O <br /><br />As several others comments pointed out, RJ has stated Tam has the information to put together that Rand is the Dragon Reborn but is so far refusing to admit it to himself.<br /><br />There is a very good reason for Tam not talking about his outside experiences.  Most soldiers don't like talking about what they did.  My father has combat experience and he refuses to talk about it, even to his family. Refusal to speak of what he did is not proof of anything.  <br /><br />Tam's refusal to marry is not proof of anything either.  He could have just conceivable loved Kari too much to marry another.  It's a simple explanation that should be addressed.  <br /><br />Pointing to the FAQ also doesn't support this theory.  RJ has consistently stated that the FAQ is 1/3 right, 1/3 close, and 1/3 left field.  So the FAQ is wrong more often than it is right.  <br /><br />My main problems with this theory from an analytical standpoint then is given some pieces of information where multiple conclusions are possible, the theory author chooses the result which supports his thesis while not addressing why the other conclusions are incorrect.    <br /><br />Thanks for reading my comment.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2005-06-22 18:32:53
subject: <b>good thinking but........</b>
body:
I like the way you think, I always felt that Tam was destined to or had already played more of a role than has been revealed so far. However not everyting adds up. Firstly if The Dark one did torture Kari's soul to get Rands location surely it would have happened sooner,I mean she been dead for well over a decade. Secondly Tam was not neccesraily hiding,he was from the two rivers originally so it would make sense for him to return and live the way he had before, remember Perrin would do the same thing if he could.


created: 2005-06-22 22:23:44
subject: <b>I have to agree</b>
body:
With most everyone else here and say no.<br /><br />I am one who never thought that was really Kari in the dream.  First of all it's in the dream world where anything can be made reality.  And second of all as we learned later from RJ the DO can only grab souls within a very specific time-frame after death.  So.. what?  You're saying he grabbed Kari's soul just on the off chance she was the Dragon Reborn's adopted mother? (remember the Shadow didn't even know WHEN the Dragon was reborn, hence the killing of any man who could channel no matter the age.  Only a select few knew his actual day of birth.)  And not only that, but he then teaches Ishy how to access those souls? Sorry, can't buy that either.<br /><br />Also we have in fact seen at least one person from the Shadow return to the Light, and that was Ingtar.  There may be more to come, who knows.<br /><br />Otherwise it's nice to see a theory thinking outside the box <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-06-23 02:37:28
subject: <b>Rand, Mat, and Perrin</b>
body:
yeah just wondering....if what you say is true, why did Ishamael seek the three boys (Rand, Mat, and Perrin) thinking that one of them is the Dragon Reborn? It was only until Rand revealed himself at the eye of the world did the shadow know who the Dragon Reborn was.....<br /><br />just thoughts


created: 2005-06-27 02:59:56
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Tam saw quite a bit of the world, and is not a stupid man.  He surely must have been familiar with the Prophecies of the Dragon.  Tam had to have understood the (potential) significance of a boy child born on the slopes of Dragonmount.  I also think that he deliberately sought out a woman with similar coloring to Rand's to explain Rand's looks so people &quot;back home&quot; wouldn't be so apt to question a child with Rand's (to them) unusual hair and eye coloring.  It'd be nice to think Tam truly loved Kari, and I believe he did, but I think he chose her at least partially for the convenience of her appearance.  Orphans of war are common, Kari likely never even thought to question where Rand was found.  I can't believe she was a darkfriend though.  Black Ajah and probably other darkfriends as well were scouring the Known World for any child that might have fulfilled Gitara's prophecies (as evidenced in New Spring).  If Kari was a darkfriend, I doubt Rand would have lived to be brought to the Two Rivers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 17:29:03
subject: <b>Kari was not a darkfriend</b>
body:
There have been too many attempts on Rand's life for his own mother (if she betrayed him, forcing Tam back to the Two Rivers) to pass up the chance while he was still a child.  In New Spring, the Black Ajah are searching for any men who can channel and are killing them.  They know the Dragon had been reborn.  If Kari was a darkfriend, word of Rand being found on Dragonmount would have reached the BA.  Rand would have been killed as a child even if Kari did care for him.  There is a good case for Tam knowing about Rand, but not for Kari.  Maybe Tam figured it out, but I think Kari was a normal person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Madness in great ones must not unwatched go.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 01:59:51
subject: <b>NO!</b>
body:
Tam was smart enough to know that 2+2=4.  Trollocs attacked, but only REALLY went after is farm Mat's dad's farm, the smithy and Perrin's family's farm and an Aes Sedai said that they were after the three boys.  Being more experienced than the others in the Two Rivers he probably didn't have quite the same view towards Aes Sedai and was more willing to believe it.<br /><br />Mind Candy- Tam and Kari were already together when he found Rand.  In his fever dream he said something about &quot;I know that you want children.&quot;  <br /><br />If the Dark One had known who Rand was and where he was he wouldn't have needed Fain.<br /><br />Why would he not move back to the Two Rivers?  That's his home.  And a lot of soldiers did it to make enough money to buy their own farm or an inn or something.  It even says that somewhere, I think when Mat is heading south to Tear and a bunch of men are joining him.  Most soldiers, except generals (and Mat), wouldn't have made enough money to live out their lives without working somewhere, especially if they retired relatively young like Tam did.


created: 2006-05-01 10:10:16
subject: <b>one tiny flaw</b>
body:
Rand can remember his mother or a smiling face and red hair. On his way back to the two rivers after the war rand could have seen his mother but the war ended as rand was born, this would mean he would be to young to remember anything. It cant take more than a month or two maybe three at a maximum to get from tarvalon to the two rivers so rand would be 6 months old at very oldest when he got back to the two rivers. All the rest may be right but kari al'thor did not die just as she got to the two rivers from a wound, she must have lived there atleast a year if not more when she died not to mention i think there are references saying rands mother died when he was four.<br />If someones already said this sorry i couldnt be bothered to read all the comments!


created: 2008-04-28 19:56:31
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
great theory, I love to hate it, kinda thing...the only thing I dont agrea with is <br /><br />&quot;(his house is described as big but not unusually big for the Two Rivers, and seems the result of his hard work, not his savings). This hints at rapid flight&quot;<br /><br />OR he wasnt going to dump all kinds of money into his home and have it larger then everyones and have people wonder where he got the money for his large home.   better to blend in then stick out.<br /><br />I really just hope Tam found out people were killing children around dragon mount and this is the nasty buisnes cadsum was talking about or something and thats why he fled to the two rivers


created: 2009-01-22 23:10:40
subject: <b>trappings of wealth</b>
body:
You're putting too much into the size of the home Tam built for himself and his family. A family that at that point included a grand total of three members. Did you expect him to build something along the size of the Al'Veres'? He doesn't even live in the town!<br /><br />Besides, despite living in the suburbs, he was part of the village council. A very respected member of it. That doesn't exactly qualify as hiding. Especially considering what an isolated and close-knit community the Two Rivers is. The village council is as far as you can go without being Mayor.<br />So he did not want to live too close to the town. Still doesn't mean anything. After being gone for so long he's most likely developed a different outlook from most in Emond's field. A different outlook that he isn't hiding and is obviously serving him if he's in the council.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-22 09:18:42
subject: <b>NIce</b>
body:
I'll wait with rating this theory untill I read the whole picture, but so far it's verrrrry nice indeed. <br /><br />I can't wait to hear your 2nd theory-part


created: 2005-06-22 10:36:57
subject: <b>Sounds good to me</b>
body:
Just one minor quibble.  In your Conclusion 2, you state that the Shadow's hold on Fain no longer drives Fain to find the boys.  I disagree.  Fain still seems to have no goals other than to find and kill Rand (since ACoS, that's all we've seen him try to do).  So, while I don't think this &quot;need&quot; has gotten any stronger over the course of the books, I don't think it's gotten any weaker, either.  It still seems to be his primary (actually, only) motivation in life.<br /><br />I do agree that Mordeth is gaining more control over Fain as the series progresses, but the need to kill Rand (and, to a lesser extent, Mat and Perrin, as RJ has said) still seems to be what's driving both of them to act.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-22 13:49:54
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Nice theory, sounds very plausible.  I like your way of explaining his desire/need for the dagger, and what it does to him that differs from what it did to Mat.  Well put together, I hope part 2 is as good as this one!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody dies alone</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-22 17:33:34
subject: <b>It sounds reasonable...</b>
body:
I think that I mostly agree with this. First, we have seen the changes in Fain, and then we saw the 'madness' creep in. I'm mostly certain I agree with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-27 02:15:43
subject: <b>I really like the theory but I somewhat disagree</b>
body:
I certainly can believe that Mordeth is getting stronger however I disagree with the idea of rating the shadow as part of Fain. I think the DO clearly modified him caused him to have certain desires and needs (such as hunting Rand) but that is very different then what you purposed (where the shadow was almost a third person in Fain's body) just as someone might feel hunger.<br /><br />I certainly see how the shadow's influence over Fain continues to weaken or at least did in the early series and that could be attributed to Mordeth gaining influence. <br /><br />I guess personally I think of the shadow as something that was done to Fain so as Mordeth grows stronger perhaps Fain weakens and thus the shadows influence over him grows less.


created: 2005-06-23 06:23:35
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
firstly, big grin for some excellent research, ancient egyptians is something i've always been interested in. however i think that the WoT of time is in such a cliched genre, with the series itself holding many cliches and parallelisms, that many our ancient stories could probably be forced into being a parallel for it. i mean how many other fantasy books do you think that Egyptian story could be forced into being a parallel, a fair few i think.  as such i don't think that we are able to get much information on the future of WoT, just by looking at the end of  story<br /><br />nevertheless, this was a very interesting theory, which i enjoyed reading, and while i cannot fault it, for the reasons given above i can neither support it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-23 14:52:04
subject: <b>heh, you wouldn't mind telling us what that vital part was would you?</b>
body:
I don't remember the entire story about Osiris and Isis that well, if I ever knew it at all.  One part I do remember is that the missing 'vital' part was Osiris' penis.  I believe it was swallowed by a fish.  It is amazing how some details stick in the head where others don't <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br />There may be some links to come with WoT.  I have a feeling that there is a lot of Egyptian mythology parallels in WoT.  I only wish I had a good Egyptian mythology reference.  The very little I do know seems to suggest a link between Rand and Ra in the sense of the 3 on a boat fortelling.  Ra was said to travel to the underworld on a boat, iirc, where he fought monsters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-23 21:03:04
subject: <b>I agree that Rand is Osiris and I put this in the FAQ some time ago</b>
body:
I think Isis will be the combo of his three loves (to tie in with King Arthur and threeon the boat).<br /><br />I do not think Mat is Set and here's why:<br /><br />compiled from stuff I wrote in the Miscellaneous, Mat/Tuon and Perrin/Faile parallels FAQs<br /><br />Osiris<br /><br />Osiris is an important god of Ancient Egypt.<br />At his birth, a loud, mysterious voice proclaimed the coming of the &#8216;Universal Lord&#8217;, which gave rise to shouts of gladness, soon followed by tears and lamentations when it was learned what misfortunes awaited him. Osiris was taller than all other men. He civilised Egypt and was the enemy of all violence. He played musical instruments. Osiris was murdered by Set and resurrected.<br /><br />- Larousse Encyclopaedia of Mythology<br /><br />Osiris is a real world parallel to Rand. The Dragon&#8217;s rebirth has been greeted with lamentations as much as with relief. Rand is very tall, plays the flute and is establishing schools of learning to improve the technology of the world. He is destined to die and live again. <br /><br />Set<br /><br />Set was an Ancient Egyptian god. He was jealous of Osiris. He was the eternal adversary, a personification of desert, drought and darkness. Set was driven from the Egyptian pantheon and made god of the unclean, since he was the enemy of all the gods.<br /><br />Set sounds like a parallel for Ishamael, the main servant of the Dark One. The Dark One is obviously associated with darkness, but also has made the Blight, a kind of desert, and set the seasons in place to cause drought and famine. All the Forsaken, including Ishamael, were driven from the Hall of the Servants once their allegiance to the Dark One was known, and were ultimately bound in the Seal of the Bore.<br /><br />Anubis<br /><br />Anubis was the jackal-headed god of Ancient Egypt. <br />He opened for the dead the roads of the world. He was depicted as a black jackal with a bushy (fox-like?) tail, who presided over embalmments. Anubis accompanied Osiris on his conquest of the world. He ushers the dead into the presence of the sovereign judges before whom he then weighs the soul of the dead.<br /><br />- Larousse Encyclopaedia of Mythology<br /><br />Mat has a foxhead medallion and a signet ring with foxes, creatures similar in appearance to, and even more cunning than, jackals. As Rand&#8217;s (Osiris, the Universal Lord's) companion and fellow ta&#8217;veren, he accompanied him out of the Two Rivers along with Perrin (Upuaut). There has been a prophetic dream of Mat putting his own eye on a balance scale and another of Mat weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scale, and on his decision resting the fate of the world. This is a parallel to Anubis weighing the souls of the dead.<br /><br />Upuaut<br /><br />Upuaut is the the wolf-headed god of Ancient Egypt, who is referred to as &#8216;he who opens the way&#8217;. Upuaut guides the warriors of his tribe into enemy territory. He leads the cortege at the festivals of Osiris. He was a former warrior god and is now worshipped as god of the dead. Upuaut is an ally of Osiris, and, with Anubis, one of his chief officers during the conquest of the world. As such, they both sometimes appear dressed as soldiers.<br /><br />- Larousse Encyclopaedia of Mythology<br /><br />Perrin is a wolfbrother who is guiding his forces (including Two Rivers bowmen) into hostile territory. He is the Bannerman of the Dragon as well as one of Rand&#8217;s chief military officers, along with Mat (Anubis) (see Mat and Tuon FAQ).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-24 14:00:58
subject: <b>Ummm.....</b>
body:
I actually liked this theory, and, though it cannot be proven or disproven, I lean towards agreement with it on the whole.  The thing that caught my attention and I had to mention:  TWoT?  Sounds like one of George Carlin's words you can't say on TV.  Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-28 03:12:29
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
But I don't agree. You did an excellent job on the research but as stated above in another post:<br /><br />Many novels can be seen to mirror myths,legend, even history from todays cultures.  So nice job but I can't support it either


created: 2005-07-03 09:57:34
subject: <b>Too many loose ends in the theory...</b>
body:
This god could be this one, or that one in WoT. Like the post above though. Still, do we learn something about the future, or is this another point on the &quot;re-read when we know the end&quot;-checklist?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-18 21:05:00
subject: <b>Egyptian mythology</b>
body:
I was reminded of Egyptian mythology too. The analogy I noticed was that between the wheel of time, and the cycles of DO trying to destroy the pattern and getting sealed again, and Ra&#180;s voyage during night time at which he is attacked daily by Apep (Chaos), which is destroyed nightly, and yet every night he is whole...


created: 2005-06-26 19:58:19
subject: <b>Yes and No</b>
body:
Good theory and well researched.<br /><br />This is similar to a theory I posted a little while back called One Power, True Power, Red Power, Blue Power.  It states that while the One Power is made of two halves that work together to create something greater than either half alone, the Dark Powers are two seperate powers that when combined destroy each other - like an acid and a base.  The evils are also attracted to each other just like the dagger in EotW drew the Forsaken to Mat  This is how the taint was destroyed.  A large pool of both dark powers were allowed to combine and destroy each other.  <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> merely provided the ability to flow and the conduit.<br /><br />I do think that you did well in demonstrating how Fain uses the Aridhol power.<br /><br />So we now have Death vs. Death - Moridin and Mordeth - Champions of each of the 2 dark powers.  We also have 2 major &quot;creatures&quot; Shaidar Haran for the True Power and the Machin Shin for the Aridhol Power.<br /><br />Yes the Machin Shis is from the Aridhol Power, that is why it didn't devour Fain like it did the trollocs or fades.<br /><br />Geer <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-06-27 02:21:11
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
This is actually a very random comment based on one thing mentioned in the theory. You meantion that when Fain regains the dagger that is when his ability really appear. To mean this sounds very similar to how Mat's luck spiked right after he lost the dagger. Hmm maybe I'm stretching.


created: 2005-06-27 08:27:31
subject: <b>d=e</b>
body:
--Just a sidenote on Fain being able to recognise Darkfriends. I think that, unlike the other talents he&#8217;s shown, is an actual amalgamation of Fain being able to sense Rand and the new evil inside of him. I think that they&#8217;ve mixed that. As well as Rand, Fain can sense, or see, &#8216;evil&#8217; people, those who the Dark One has even a small grip over. --<br /><br />mat was able to identify darkfriends for a time while he was carrying the dagger...i guess this is just an aridhol gift from the dagger though...d=f


created: 2005-06-27 09:22:37
subject: <b>What about now ?</b>
body:
Good theory, and very well researched. I voted yes more because I liked it than because I believed in it, but then, I guess we'll just have to RAFO.<br /><br />The big wuestion now is, &quot;Is the AP gone with the destruction of Shadar Logoth&quot; ? Please let me explain :<br /><br />Let's assume the theory is correct and Mordeth is the original wielder of the AP. Then we can suppose that his power grew along with his control over the city of Aridhol, so that his power was at a maximum when he gained total control of the people's minds and the king's. Is the city a whell he can draw his power from ?<br /><br />So what happened when the city was destroyed when Rand cleansed Saidin ? We can safely assume the city is no longuer affected by the &quot;AP&quot; but what of Fain's power ? Did he drew power from the Shadar Logoth, in which case it would be very bad for him ? Did he drew from the dagger only ? Did he do everything on his own ?<br /><br />... I got the feeling he was affected one way on the other by the destruction of Aridhol but I don't really know how.<br /><br />Any idea ?


created: 2005-06-27 15:46:42
subject: <b>I agree withe the theory.</b>
body:
Good job. I like it. I just wonder, this &quot;thing he carried from Aridhol&quot; that he brushed Elaida and Niall with, can it be the dagger instead of his Power?<br /><br />However, to the posters above:<br /><br />Geer: The Machin Shin is a manifestation of the evil of the Ways, i.e. the Taint of Saidin. It didn't destroy Fain because it feeds on the soul, and Fain's soul was already sold. Some voices inside the Black Wind greeted Fain as a friend, others were scared of him. It's the same property that the Dark One's evil has, in relation to the Shadar Logoth evil: they're both evil, so they attract, but the Shadar Logoth evil was made to destroy the Dark One, so the Dark One's evil is scared of the Shadar Logoth evil.<br /><br />pier1: Mat wasn't able to identify Darkfriends, he just got really suspicious of everybody.<br /><br />Ashaman_Drake: The Aridhol Power won't disappear. The Cleansing didn't reverse anything, it only prevented further damage from happening, and that's with the Taint. Fain is totally unaffected, he still has his powers, his dagger still works, and Rand's dagger wound is still there, showing no signs of healing. Actually, the only thing we don't know that may have changed is Mashadar. Who knows, it may be loose now, or Fain may have it stored in his dagger, it being the last physical trace of Aridhol in the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-28 05:26:55
subject: <b>good theory, but</b>
body:
I dont think you mentioned one of his more powerful tricks.  I dont have time to look it up right now, but I seem to remember that when Rand got his 2nd wound (fains dagger)there was a very un-natural fog, and creatures in the fog that were tearing people up.  No one mentions seeing weaves of the one power, Rand or the Aes Sedai.  THat would make me believe that everything that happend was caused by Fain. Any Ideas on where this all came from?


created: 2005-06-28 17:18:52
subject: <b>Miasma</b>
body:
Yep, the fog was made by those &quot;bubbles of evil&quot; coming from the Dark One, through the Pattern. Like Rand's thing with the mirrors, Perrin's the axe and Mat with those cards.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-28 22:19:27
subject: <b>But what IS Mordeth?</b>
body:
I always sort of thought Mordeth is a kind of gholam. Perhaps a gholam that survived the Breaking and managed to free itself from control. There is a hint of this in one of the later books, the gholam is thinking that it now has the concept of freedom, though it is still constrained.<br /><br />That does not explain how Mordeth is able to consume souls and take the bodies of others. In fact we have no idea just what Mordeth is, a ghost? A sort of vampire? It would explain is contempt for Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Way back in the first book Aginor describes Mat's dagger as representing 'an old friend, an old enemy'. Strange comment, I still think. Did he use some mix the OP, TP and AP when he constructed his living tools like the trollocs, gholam, drahkar?<br /><br />Maybe Mordeth is a gholam that ate a drahkar? Or vice versa.


created: 2005-06-30 04:25:13
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
nice theory<br /><br />and to make a comment on a comment, &quot;Is the AP gone with the destruction of Shadar Logoth&quot; NO if Fain and all afected by the AP where in shadar logoth at the time then it woud be gone but the Fain was not there and so the AP  lives on, if you destroy the white tower you dont destroy the OP<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..........what?.....STOP LOOKING AT ME!!...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-04 17:56:51
subject: <b>AP? Please...</b>
body:
Let's take a work of fiction, consider both what we do know and what we don't know about the detailed aspects of this fiction, and let's create aspects of which the author had no intent, then discuss them as if they were factual.<br /><br />The Shadow represents evil for evil's sake. That includes the DO, shadowspawn, the True Power, etc.<br /><br />Mordeth and Mashadar represent evil perpetrated by man against man, for his own sake. Mordeth used evil means, which twisted and ruined Aridhol, for an apparently noble purpose, to stand against the Shadow. The result, the now palpable and still-influential wickedness of Aridhol, still fights the Dark when it can, but its insidious nature consumes all who come in contact with it.<br /><br />Machin Shin is again different altogether. Whatever comprised the taint on Saidin, it was a work of the DO, and designed to create madness. The taint remaining within the construction of the Ways, given a great enough amount of time, coalesced into a wind of pure madness. The whispers heard within Machin Shin are likely formed from the thoughts of those captured by it before the Ways were closed, since it is a mindless thing of itself.<br /><br />Three differently manifested evils, with three greatly varying effects on a victim.<br /><br />Fain was specially prepared for his task of locating the DR, and this preparation changed him, making him less than a man and more than a Darkfriend. Because of this he withstood being possessed by Mordeth at Shadar Logoth. Let's remember that he hasn't touched the dagger yet. But now Mordeth has his vehicle out of Aridhol's prison, and even if he can't completely take over the mind, his wicked influence finds a happy home in the vile creature that is Padan Fain.<br /><br />None of this is conjecture on my part, read Moiraine's description of her meeting with Fain in TEotW, and the details given in TGH. Mordeth had the influence and charisma to infest an entire capitol city with the extreme paranoia that ended up killing it. <br /><br />Recall the distrust and paranoia that Mat experienced simply carrying a piece of Shadar Logoth, and compare how much more the possessive, direct impact of Mordeth's own soul would twist Fain. <br /><br />That isn't the end of his being changed. He still hasn't been near the dagger when he chases the good guys to the Waygate at Fal Dara, and gets touch by Machin Shin. It doesn't kill him, perhaps it makes him a little bit more mad and evil than before. The madness of Mordeth perhaps shields him from the madness of the Black Wind. But now you have a character that has been touched by all three different kinds of evil. Almost directly by the DO at Shayol Ghul, Mordeth, and Machin Shin. He is beyond any human's understanding now. And he is capable of evil enough to scare a Fade.<br /><br />Even before Shadar Logoth, Fain was a mental wreck, unable to think for himself much of the time, forced to his path and unable to restrain the NEED to chase his targets. After Fain got his hands on the dagger, more completely cementing Mordeth's grip on him, some of that was severed. While his hatred for Rand continued to grow, he was no longer compelled as the DO's hound.<br /><br />All of that to say this. There is a force of wickedness embedded in the very stones of Shadar Logoth, a force that will have its effect on any who come in contact with it. In Fain this force can actually be controlled, something that he can use on people, but I would never put it in a category similar to wielding the OP. It isn't something of substance or the elements, but of emotion. He can't do anything with it but within the minds of his victims.<br /><br />It is the difference between the classic descriptions of a wizard and a sorcerer. Wizardry manipulate the elements, sorcery the mind. A wizard casts a lightning bolt or a fireball, a sorcerer creates pain, and madness.<br /><br />All in all, the treatise on Fain/Mordeth/Ordeith is well done, and quite thorough. It loses something, however, when attributes and aspects of things are assigned that cannot be supported by the text.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 06:51:48
subject: <b>Just a comment regarding the dream of Thom giving evidence</b>
body:
I think it was indicated in the book that it was not a prophetic dream (the one where Thom came forward to give evidence).  If she dreamed of him testifying against her, it was because Areina and Nicola knew Nynaeve &amp; Elayne had been pretending to be Aes Sedai, from overhearing something Juilin said to Thom.  <br />I believe RJ only included that part, because in LoC, there was a lot of tension between Nynaeve &amp; Elayne on one side and Areina &amp; Nicola on the other, and it was mentioned that they had to ask Areina &amp; Nicola not to rat them out.  In fact, until aCoS came out, I had no idea why they needed to ask such a favor.  At no time did Elayne &amp; Nynaeve pretend to be Aes Sedai since leaving Ronde Macura's house, and Areina &amp; Nicola had no way of knowing they ever had, or even that they could channel, before they arrived in Salidar.  The fact that Nicola was always acting smug &amp; Areina hostile in LoC wouldn't have placed enough tension or stress on Nynaeve for the necessary plot points, unless they had some sort of trump card to hold over her - namely the threat of exposure, which Siuan was using as leverage.  The bit about them overhearing Thom &amp; Juilin was, I am certain, a delayed explanation to readers.  The dream was just to show Egwene's mental state, and it is far more likely she would dream of Thom giving evidence, since she knew him longer and better than Juilin.  It was to illustrate that she felt there were few people she could trust, which is a significant character trait for Egwene - not the kind of paranoia that Rand borders on, but still a kind of control freak mentality.  <br />I just can't see that dream having any prophetic or significant purpose other than what I just said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 14:43:47
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
Connoli, you should make a theory on that. Alot more people seem to misinterpret that dream than you would think. And since Nicola LITERALLY tried to blackmail Egwene about it (though Egwene managed to lie and convince her that it WASN'T as bad as Nicola hoped), I think it's pretty clear that that's what it meant.


created: 2005-06-29 16:56:53
subject: <b>You&#8217;re right; I should have been more careful with my wording</b>
body:
Egwene discarded that little string of dreams as having no bearing on the future.  She didn&#8217;t view any of them as prophetic.  And yet, I can&#8217;t help but think that Jordan is teasing us with a little veiled foreshadowing here, a little Jordan irony.  <br /><br />Yes, the first thing that comes to mind when we read &#8220;Nicola denounced her to the Hall and Thom Merrilin came forward to give evidence&#8221; is Egwene&#8217;s transgression at playing Aes Sedai.  Seems obvious enough in context.  Maybe too obvious.  Mine&#8217;s simply another possible interpretation, not necessarily a misinterpretation.  I&#8217;m not trying to take the dream literally either, just exploring another possible implication of it.  Perhaps both are true, yes?   <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 17:53:51
subject: <b>If Nicola were only guessing on Egwene</b>
body:
Why would Thom be the one putting forth evidence.  He was no where near Egwene when she was masquerading as AS.  The fact is that Nicola tried to blackmail her without any evidence which quite honestly is the only reason she didn't have to &quot;eliminate&quot; her.  I think whether this is a Dream or not it still indicates a pretty strong foreshadowing of what may happen.  And this idea is very unique in that it bring all the various how will Moiraine be saved theories in line.  Egwene's impending death is a very good incentive to connect all of the major plotlines.  She is the only one with the skills to bring that about.  She can Dreamwalk wherever she needs to go.  She can speak to people in their dreams and she can do the forbidden acts of breaking past a ward(or soon will be) and of drawing a person into a dream of her own making.<br />All the Egwene haters out there may be appalled but she is the key to a speedy reunion of all major characters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 18:22:57
subject: <b>Correction</b>
body:
[b]Why would Thom be the one putting forth evidence. He was no where near Egwene when she was masquerading as AS.[/b]<br /><br /><br />He spent about a month Tear with Egwene, who at the time was pretending to be Aes Sedai. But of course,  if that thought ever occurs to the dumb Sitters, there will be plenty of potential witnesses of the Wonder Girls' violation of the Tower laws.<br /> But as much as I'd love to see Egwene deposed (and tortured, and killed...you got the idea <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />, if Thom is to testify about something it will be about the Red Sisters who stilled his nephew, who are most probably mentioned in Moiraine's letter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 19:54:00
subject: <b>Alright</b>
body:
Fine, say that you did interpret the dream right. That still leaves some major holes.<br /><br />What you're suggesting (I think, I couldn't quite be sure) is that EGWENE will be the one to realize that there is a possibility that Moiraine is alive.<br /><br />1. That means that Thom would have travelled all the way from Altara to Tar Valon - with Mat, since he won't be likely to wake up one morning and think, &quot;Hmm, I think I'll leave Mat today and go say hi to Egwene!&quot; If he didn't go to see her before with his list of Aes Sedai, he won't go now, not unless he gets another reason.<br /><br />2. Mat would have had to be with him. If Mat says &quot;Oh, yeah, the Tower of Ghenjei is another way to enter Finnland!&quot; then Thom won't need Egwene's &quot;Moiraine might still be alive!&quot; in order to get the idea.<br /><br />3. If that does happen, then that means that Thom is going to have to go from Altara to Tar Valon (and for what? Just to realize that Moiraine is still alive? It's not like Egwene can help him with anything else) and then onto Whitebridge, and then BACK to Tar Valon.<br /><br />4. Quite frankly, I just don't think all the fuss it would take for your theory to work (go all the way to Tar Valon to even realize Moiraine is ALIVE when they're closer to the Tower now as it is) is worth it. I mean, come on. The only knowledge Egwene can give them is, &quot;Yuppe, Moiraine's alive, don't know how or anything, but she is!&quot;<br /><br />5. When Thom gets to Tar Valon, why would Egwene look for Moiraine's dream? Thom has the list that Egwene needs. What purpose does Moiraine serve, that would make Egwene think she should look? It's not like Thom will go to Egwene, find out Moiraine is alive, go free her, come back, and THEN tell Egwene all about the names on the list. He'll tell her the first time he gets there - so what purpose does Moiraine serve then? And for that matter, if Thom says, &quot;I think Moiraine is alive, could you check and make sure?&quot; then what's the point in dragging him all the way there just to go back to Whitebridge, when he suspected it anyway?


created: 2005-06-29 21:29:55
subject: <b>Glad you followed my suggestion Auntie!</b>
body:
I like this one. And yes I know tha Egwene discards the 'trial' dream as meaningless, but she's been wrong before. Not only that but RJ delights in dropping clues here and there and then making them seem inocuous. However, I would not interpret this particular dream too literally. I think the trial part is good, but maybe not Thom. I can see a scenario where she recoginses that maybe Moiraine is still alive (don't forget it's her dream of Thom pulling Moiraines stone out of the fire) Maybe Thom won't testify in person, maybe he's a symbol for something else. However I can easily grasp the crux of your theory which isn't about Thom, Nicola or even Egwene's trial. It's about Egwene using the dreamscape to find Moiraine thru her dreams. I can easily see this happening. It would be a hoot against all the Egwene haters out there if she's instrumental in Moiraine's rescue.<br /><br />NaCl(two thumbs up MJJ!)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 21:33:06
subject: <b>Arrrgggg! the double-post curse strikes again!</b>
body:
Well I liked your theory MJJ, but I really didn't like it THAT much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />NaCl(even I can be noobish at times)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 21:57:59
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I really do like this theory. It had never occurred to me that Egwene could recognise Moiraine's dream, even in another world.<br /><br />Also, one thing we haven't seen is Egwene using need in T'A'R. We have seen Nynaeve and Elayne using it, but not Egwene. This would be a perfect chance for a true dreamwalker to use her abilities.<br /><br />For those who state that it would be way too far out of their way for Thom to travel to Tar Valon, remember that Egwene IS a dreamwalker, and so can find his dream, or perhaps Mat's (She no doubt recognises it, since Mat was with her in FoH, just like Rand). I could imagine Egwene using Mat's Ta'veren ability to alter her chance at reaching Thom's dream.<br /><br />With Egwene in contact with Thom in his dreams, she could find out details that she couldn't otherwise know. With that knowledge, she would first seek out Moiraine's dream, thereby discovering that she is, indeed, alive. If Egwene can see her dreams (either for lack of a ward, or by breaking through one), she may discover that she it being held by the 'Finns. Then she could use need to discover the Tower of Ghenjei, and direct Thom and Mat toward it. Need may also let her discover the way into the tower.<br /><br />The dream where Thom gives evidence need not be a prophecy for her to have his help in this. Thom has an extremely strong connection to the tower (through his nephew, through Moiraine, through Elaida, and through Elayne), and so it would not be surprising if he played a role in that storyline, anyway. Imagine - Egwene makes contact with Thom while captive, and Thom helps her find a way to escape. She escapes, then tries to find Moiraine for him (perhaps he never truly believed she was dead).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 22:21:26
subject: <b>-</b>
body:
It isn't the travelling I'm concerned about. Egwene can whip up a Gateway to the Tower of Ghenjei and another one back to the White Tower. It's the going back and forth that would give me a headache.<br /><br />And as for her entering Thom's dreams... I did think about that. But that still doesn't explain why she would suddenly decide to look for Moiraine in the first place. And if she could rifle through Thom's knowledge, then she could figure out (or even ask him, in the dream) which Aes Sedai were the ones responsible, and then there still would be no reason for her to think of Moiraine.<br /><br />I just don't see why she would do it. Thom has all the info Egwene needs, not Moiraine. Egwene saw Moiraine go through that doorway, so if she believed that there was any chance she survived, she would have already looked. And she would need a pretty good reason to look, anyway - Mat's fallen off the face of the earth, as far as she knows, and yet it never occured to her to check and see if his star was there, or to even try entering his dreams to see what happened to him. And she had pretty grim dreams about him when he was under that building - even that wasn't enough to make her look. So, she's going to have to have a preeetty good reason for it, and I can't think of any reason whatsoever.<br /><br />If you can give me one, then I am willing to believe that Egwene will pop into Thom's dreams and say, &quot;Look, this is Egwene, I know Moiraine is alive and trapped in the Tower (how would she know that? If Lanfear escaped, she would probably assume Moiraine did, too, and that's why she's alive) and you should go there and free her. Now. I need her (why, exactly?).&quot;


created: 2005-06-29 22:57:18
subject:
<b>Nice theory MJJ  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
As for whether Moiraine can still ward her dreams, there is a distinct possibility that she can't. She may have been burned out or stilled as she clawed away the angreal and battled Lanfear. Her bond to Lan was broken - either through stilling/burnout, the collapsing doorway to the Finn's world or, of course her death. There have been prophetic dreams nad visions to eliminate the latter possibility. <br /><br />If she has been stilled/burned out, she won't be able to ward her dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-29 23:38:01
subject: <b>For those not fixating over the details of &#8220;how&#8221; here&#8230;</b>
body:
Thank you!  You&#8217;ve got the gist of it.  This isn&#8217;t about nitty gritty detailed plot mechanics.  As I said, if Jordan wants to make something happen, he will.  It&#8217;s about the possibilities that Egwene&#8217;s dreamwalking opens up.  And yep,  Thom may or may not make it to the Tower in person, or he may just be a symbol of something, or Egwene may be contacting him in his dreams (and yes, she does recognize Mat&#8217;s dreams by the way), or&#8230;fun to speculate on the possible &#8220;hows&#8221;, but don&#8217;t discount anything!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-30 00:38:35
subject: <b>Nice pickup MJJ Sedai</b>
body:
Maybe she will be the one to re-discover that Moiraine Damodred is alive. I say re-discover as I had always thought that the Wise Ones knew all along that neither Lanfear (hottie then, hottie now) nor Moiraine died that day on the docks.<br /><br />Again, good pickup.


created: 2005-06-30 00:57:11
subject: <b>Oops, forgot to mention: Darn you NaCIH20!!</b>
body:
You're absolutely right (both times by the way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )!  Egwene had that dream of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue stone out of a fire before Moiraine's &quot;death&quot;, and thought at the time that it was a True Dream.  She had no idea how to interpret it though.  She's probably since then discounted it as just a dream rather than a True Dream, if she's even thought of it at all.  More fuel for the fire, so to speak, to make her go looking for Moiraine's dreams once she has the impetus to do so.  <br /><br />And yep Linda; if Moiraine was stilled or burned out she wouldn't have the ability to ward her dreams.  Rand channeled while in Finnland, so if Moiraine can still channel, she's most likely still warding her dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-30 10:05:48
subject: <b>Why Egwene and Thom Will Hook Up</b>
body:
I don't know if this was covered, but someone brought up a point about Egwene/Thom hooking up, and why they would. <br /><br />Thom has a letter denouncing the Aes Sedai that gentled his nephew, with strong hints that Elaida is named. Aes Sedai can't write lies, so unless they want to call Moiraine a darkfriend, the letter'll be believed. <br /><br />Egwene and her Salidar friends are attempting a smear campaign claiming that the Reds set Logain up. Their one stumbling block though is that their only evidence is Logain's statements. <br /><br />I think that somehow Thom hears about the campaign agianst the Reds, and after reading the letter given to him goes to Egwene with this vital piece of evidence, which names names.. Including the Amyrlin they're trying to pull down. <br /><br />That leads to the events discussed in the theory.


created: 2005-06-30 11:35:58
subject: <b>My thought</b>
body:
I believe that RJ wrote this especially to confuse the issue.<br /><br />Look at the sentance again two parts of the dream are noted one Nicola is denouncing her and Thom is coming forward with evidence however they need not be on the same side or even connected.<br /><br />As often the dreams do not follow a logical order. Nothing in the sentance says Thoms evidence is against her it is easy to make the jump into thinking they are related but however she is just listing trial events not that Thom is in league with Nicola.<br /><br />This makes it even more probable that Thom is giving evidence of the Reds plot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-30 17:08:30
subject: <b>Semantics</b>
body:
Perhaps my memories mislead me but in both instances Egwene was with a full AS and was therefore condoned by an AS.  Again my memory may not serve me well, especially since my tSR fell to pieces very early on, but it is my understanding that Egwene never called herself AS unitl she was in Rhuidean.  The idea that she allowed people to think it does not sound like evidence that would be allowed in court.  If she actually claimed to be AS in Tear please forgive me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-30 18:12:55
subject: <b>Another thing</b>
body:
Finns have been around long time and they were able to hold  Forsaken as their prisoner (at least some time). So they should have taken care that their &quot;visitors&quot; cannot communicate with anyone else without their permission. After all Dreamwalkers were more common during last age so they should have means how to block anyone else from using that talent against their interests.


created: 2005-07-05 13:20:00
subject: <b>Could Thom's &quot;Evidence&quot; be Moiraine?</b>
body:
Assuming<br /><br />1.) that the dream means something<br /> and <br />2.) that Nicola's denouncement and Thom's Evidence are related<br /><br />One interpretation might be that Thom brings forth Morianne herself (like in Egwene's stone dream and the theories about him rescuing her), as she knew Egwene was pretending to be Aes Sedai while with the Aiel. There would be the &quot;Evidence&quot; that Nicola is lacking. Maybe. Unless I'm remembering things wrong, as I often do . . . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-07-06 03:51:40
subject: <b>Tenable, but I disagree as a matter of personal preference.</b>
body:
Couple things, more on the response than the post (which is entirely plausible even if it doesn't appeal to me and I don't expect it.)<br /><br />Correct me if I'm wrong (do I have to say that?) but isn't the ability to recognize a True Dream a skill that Dreamwalkers develop (i.e. Egwene might not be certain the first such dreams she thought to be were even if correct, but would be less likely to err in that way with time?)  And isn't it like one of those things that goes &quot;if you think it is, you might be wrong, but if you're sure it's not you're right?&quot;<br /><br />Dreamwalking is not a function of the One Power; they're distinct.  Aiel Wise Women who couldn't channel have been Dreamwalkers and, while I don't recall it being explicitly stated, presumably knew how to ward their dreams.  I wanna say Perrin does, too, but I can't remember for certain; I'm not as used to going right to page thus-and-such with WoT as I am with LotR and the Silm (if you're a blond Eldar you're a descendant of Finarfin or have Vanyar blood (and they never left Valinor) BLONDE ELVES WERE THE EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE.)  I know that last bit isn't WoT, but I feel obliged to clear up at least one/something for which Peter Jackson deserves a beating at every opportunity (take that last construction however you like.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 20:34:33
subject: <b>Still like this, MJJ.</b>
body:
RJ is continuously dropping foreshadowings since EotW.<br /><br />Agree with post above that the  &quot;dream&quot; of Nicola and Thom<br />are separate. Nicola will denounce her and Thom will/may present evidence against Elaida at the time of Egwene`s trial (if there is a trial), or even just show up in TV with his evidence.<br /><br />The details of how will be a RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-13 05:18:54
subject: <b>Whats in a letter?</b>
body:
I'd have to say no to this one. What really tips things<br />that way for me is that with Egwene's capture at the end of CoT it seems like she's going to be way to busy with reuniting the tower, the asha'man embasy, the upcoming Seanchan attack on the white tower and various other bits and pieces. Also we know that Moirane gained an insight into her future in Rhuidean and subsequently wrote a letter for Thom, if we have not seen the letter's content (I can't remember if we do) then is it not possible for Thom to have his own suspicions about Moirane's location, especially when he's galivanting about with someone who's been through the door Moirane fell through.


created: 2005-07-25 17:52:40
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Though my first idea was that Thom would give evidence about Egwene pretending to be AS, they are both aiming at the same target: getting Elaida.<br /><br />Egwene wants her removed as Amyrlin, and Thom wants to get the Reds who killed his nephew (which almost surely includes Elaida).<br /><br />I think need is the key. She needs something to help her pull Elaida down: Moiraine has the info, if she's stilled she can't ward her dreams, and we know Eggy can recognize them. She finds out her location, get ahold of Thom/Mat somehow to tell them about the Tower and a way to save her, and she gets the info to convince the other Sisters to get rid of Elaida.<br />


created: 2005-07-03 07:09:21
subject: <b>Location of Waygates</b>
body:
No. And twice again no. Why?<br />I doubt that the Waygate was destroyed together with the City of SL. As we see in the case of Fal Dara, Waygates are not necessarily inside the cities, and I think that they were originally built outside and some have just been swallowed by the growth of the biggest cities like Caemlyn.<br />Ok, I can&#194;&#180;t remember whether the SL Waygate has been located in any of the books, so if anyone can give me proof that it was inside SL please send me a note...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I evil? Yes I am!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-03 07:29:36
subject: <b>LoC</b>
body:
In LoC chapter 21: &quot;To Shadar Logoth&quot; Rand, the Maidens, Loial and the other Ogier go into Shadar Logoth and locate the Waygate inside the city. Remember, that's when Liah is lost.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-03 08:37:45
subject: <b>don't mean to be picky, but....</b>
body:
there is no 'Fisher King', it's just the 'Fisher'. the term Fisher (King) is used in the FAQ as it identifies the Fisher piece to that of the King is chess<br /><br />IMHO, i think the Fisher is Jesus. Jesus was a 'fisher of men', the sign of fish was used between christians, he was poked in the side by a lance, reflecting the wound on the Fisher and the bandage could have any number of metaphorical references. the Fisher is supposed to be a distant memory of Rand, another Dragon of another Age perhaps, and Christ's sacrifice certainly was keeping Satan, or Shai'tan, at bay...<br /><br />btw, i don't think that Machin Shin or the Mashadar has escaped SL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-03 09:45:39
subject: <b>An interesting bit of this theory...</b>
body:
...is the connection between Fisher &amp; the land and Rand's wound &amp; the taint-removal. What else is loose in Rand &amp; Randland? Lemme see... Rand's going nuts, and so is the world.  By going nuts I mean weevils, (maggots eating through your brain,- I mean grain) and ghosts (people long dead talking &amp; walkning)<br /><br />So... is the terrible cost that Rand's madness is loose in the land?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-03 10:20:53
subject: <b>Can't be true</b>
body:
I don't exactly know where, but I think it was somewhere at the end of the EotW, Loial tells how a Waygate was destroyed by thirteen Aes Sedai because it had fallen to the Blight and of another, where the eleven Aes Sedai were somehow sucked in when it got destroyed.  So it seems simple destruction of a Waygate is no means to escape for Machin Shin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm the Alpha and the Omega</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-03 14:12:52
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
nice theory. couple of little problems, but for the most part, it seems logical.<br /><br />btw, i just wanted to point out to foxhead that Jesus was not a fisher of men. he told his apostles that he would make THEM fishers of men.


created: 2005-07-03 18:28:23
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
You state that Machin Shin is made of the taint. That's really an assumption; we don't know what Machin Shin is. The change to the Ways started 1000 years ago during the War of the Hundred Years - 2000 years after they were first created. It could just as easily be something Ishy did, since he was thought to have been loose at that time.<br /><br />Foxhead, in the FAQ I link the Fisher piece in sha'rah with the Fisher King of Arthurian myth.<br /><br />Sha'rah is <i>not</i> derived from chess, but from a family of Norse/Celtic games. One ofthese games, gwyddbwyll, is played in the Arthurian tales.<br /><br />Isam is Lan's cousin, not uncle. It is Luc who is an uncle - to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-07-04 01:34:11
subject: <b>As it was said above</b>
body:
we saw in the books that simply destroying the gate DOES NOT allow Machin Shin to escape the Ways.<br /><br />


created: 2005-07-04 02:11:25
subject: <b>unless I'm mistaken...</b>
body:
I always thought that the reason Machin Shin is around the waygates Rand goes to was because it had absorbed part of Fain's soul, and thus part of the ability to seek him out that Fain had.  I don't remember Fain ever actually siccing it on him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody dies alone</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-04 08:13:21
subject: <b>You're wrong about the taint parts</b>
body:
You seem to be under the misapprehension that Rand could have put the taint anywhere.  He didn't in fact remove the taint.  What he did was put the taint on saidin in close proximity with the Shadar Logoth taint, and let the two destroy each other.  The &quot;soil&quot; isn't weakened by the addition of two taints, because there are NO taints left.  They consumed one another.  As bad as the Coplins and Congars are, dumping the taint on their houses would not have resulted in the taint being destroyed, as there is no corresponding evil force to consume it.  Also, the soil was destroyed, vaporized in the reaction of the two taints to one another.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-04 16:22:01
subject: <b>One really good point...</b>
body:
Though I don't see any possibility whatsoever that Machin Shin could get loose I do agree with one point you made.  CoT had way too much chatter and way too little action.  I want to know about the Finns, Luc/Isam, gholam, Shara, Faile, the Shaido, &amp; the Forsaken.  I really don't care so much about Elayne's political career.  CoT was as close to boring as RJ can get.  I really hope for more action in KoD.


created: 2005-07-05 00:38:27
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
There's a few other things this could be.  <br /><br />Perhaps we'll finally learn &quot;the truth&quot; (whatever it is) about Taim.  Rand's decision to put him in charge of the Black Tower will eventually have a terrible cost, I'd think.  <br /><br />Maybe Rand's decision to speak with the Seanchan.<br /><br />Maybe the Seanchan finally figure out the 10:1 ratio of channelers they have walking around free.<br /><br />Maybe we'll finally see a rescue attempt for Moiraine.  It's been implied from Min's viewings that Rand won't succeed w/o her and everyone thinks she's dead.<br /><br />Good thinking on the theory though.  Guess we'll just have to wait and see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-05 12:15:05
subject: <b>It's been a while since I read TGH</b>
body:
But I remember Machin Shin not so much as coming out of the Waygate entirely.  Rather, it seemed to me that the mirrored surface of the Waygate started to bulge outward toward Rand (kind of like those bubble doors in the Nintendo game Metroid).<br /><br />I think you may overstate your case by stating the MS is free to leave the Ways.  If it were, surely Fain would have decided to open a Waygate somewhere to let it play havoc across the world.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-07-05 13:20:44
subject: <b>Interesting ideas, but ...</b>
body:
I'm voting &quot;No&quot; because I'm not convinced either of these are likely.  <br /><br />But it IS the start of a good discussion.


created: 2005-07-05 19:11:08
subject: <b>Eye of the World</b>
body:
It seems to me that the most likely source of this terrible cost is the way that Rand used the saidin contained in the Eye of the World. I realize that it was somewhat a matter of necessity, but I think I remember either the Green Man or Moiraine saying that the eye was not meant to be used the way Rand used it in destroying the Trolloc army and saving Shienar.  I think it must have had a much greater purpose or all those Aes Sedai would not have died to create it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 09:08:33
subject: <b>what about saidar???</b>
body:
good idea of the cleansing having the terrible. other than that, the only other really huge and impossible thing that comes to mind is nynaeve's discovery of the healing of stilling/severing, and that doesn't use much of the power at all, as we're given to see. well, that, and the bowl of the winds.<br /><br />remember that during CoT the women are starting to notice strange things happening with their weaves, how they aren't sticking or holding as they should?<br /><br />what if the cleansing had some adverse affect on saidar? like, the taint somehow put a shadow on saidar or something, effecting its use.<br /><br />about machin shin leaving the ways: verin seems adamant about the idea that machin shin is a creature of the ways and thus cannot leave them. during that point in TGH when they find machin shin at the waygate, remember that rand hears it calling his name. this is explained by fain's inadvertent taintint of machin shin. it probably just knew where rand was and hated him as much as fain did.<br /><br />another possibility would be that now that the weather is righted, it could be that shifting of the winds in one place created huge storms in another place...maybe randland will get pounded with a huge F5 tornado or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-07 02:30:19
subject: <b>Occam's Razor</b>
body:
Couldn't the terrible event just be the borderland armies leaving and the North unprotected and the trollocs come while they are south. That would be real bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 03:16:48
subject: <b>Terrible costs</b>
body:
There are too many possibilities as to what event was meant. For instance:<br /><br />1. Using the Eye of the World<br />2. Cleansing Saidin<br />3. Amnesty on Male Channellers<br />4. Taim's appointment as M'Hael<br />5. The Sea Folk deal<br />6. Nynaeve healing stilling/gentling<br />7. The girls pretending to be Aes Sedai<br />8. The male a'dam given to seanchan (there's a strong possibility)<br />9. Asmodean or Sammael being killed (if he really was killed)<br />10. Moiraine and Lanfear (twisted doorway event)<br />11. Freeing Alivia<br />12. Mat taking DoNM<br />13. Perrin chasing after Faile<br />14. Dumai's Wells<br />15. Crossing of balefires (near when Rand killed Sammael)<br />16. Fain gets the dagger from Tar Valon<br /><br />Those are just off the top of my head. If I spent more time thinking, I could no doubt come up with about 50 possibilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 14:37:27
subject: <b>Responses part 1, starting in reverse order</b>
body:
I'd like to thank almost everybody who responded to this theory.  If you think I'm totally wrong, that's great too, but I won't thank people who put virtually no thought into their replies.<br /><br />Aielyn - Duh.  You scarcely deserve more of a response, because if you read the first paragraphs (in an admittedly long-winded &quot;theory&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> you'll see that I'm trying to stimulate some discussion, and offer a couple of possibilities.  I mean, seriously - the only way you couldn't come up with a whole lot of other things that could have &quot;a terrible cost&quot; is if you didn't read the books at all.  My goal was to pick one or two that I haven't seen discussed, both related to the Taint's removal, and run with that.  So I say &quot;Duh, brainiac.  Your list doesn't deserve a pat on the back.&quot;<br /><br />cougar10 - Yeah it could be; but it seems too lazy for Jordan.  And there's no discussion of &quot;a terrible event&quot; - just that something that happened will have a terrible cost - &quot;revealed to have a terrible cost&quot; suggests that the cost wasn't obvious/known in the first place.  Jordan is precise.  This could mean some Randland waiter that Mat overtipped might burn down all of Caemlyn; Mat wanted good service at a tavern, the waiter used it to buy an AOL town-burning device, and so Caemlyn burned down - &quot;a terrible cost.&quot;<br /><br />meadcd - first let me say thanks.  I actually like the idea of healing having some terrible cost - perhaps it damages the user's ability to control the OP so they will later burn themselves out?  Or the effect on the OP from now un-severed people causes some disruption in the OP (by breaking some sort of natural laws of the Power)?  I keep looking for events that synch up with the Power acting weird.  Jordan is piling *way* too many severe problems onto our heroes - it looked bad enough *before* their access to the OP got compromised.  I still worry that the books will start to become ridiculous once the good guys *finally* find out that the Forsaken have access to an undetectable (and thus, for the time being, unblockable) source of Power directly from the DO (the dialogue or exposition may sound risible).  That in mind, Saidar being damaged goods would sound silly - it's a huge problem, but it's nothing more than a reversal of a problem that has had real emotional resonance for readers of the first books.  So just flipping the problem around would cheapen both its own impact and the impact of the original taint - poor writers use cheap tricks like that, and it's used because they're poor writers.  There are flaws in Jordan's writerly/artistic choices, but he's no hack.  On the other hand, I've meant to ask Jordan if Saidar ever got tainted in the past, or if the Dragon was ever a female.  In response to your last points, Verin doesn't &quot;know&quot; (with absolute authority) anything - she serves to give the characters and readers some info by telling these groups what she believes, but she could be totally wrong about practically anything.  I don't recall anything suggesting that Fain &quot;tainted&quot; MS - I'd rather believe that Moiraine was hardcore enough in Fal Dara to drag the complete truth about a few things out of Fain (which would mean that it half-feared, half-welcomed him, and so might be amenable to requests).  It could definitely be the weather, if not the use of the bowl in the first place, but I'd rather not write a theory about weather.  IMHO, the whole weather thing should be treated (in the books) as *over*: DO tried something nasty, it was working, good guys fixed the problem (causing more extreme weather for a bit), plot thread done.<br /><br />LogainReborn - You could be totally right.  I think Jordan stated, on the Tor website, that it wasn't meant to be used Rand's way.  But I've seen people chatting about that one before, and I don't like it much as a source of calamity (doesn't seem too important now, with access keys and a cleansed Saidin).<br /><br />Pathfinder - Thanks, and thanks for getting what I'm going for.


created: 2005-07-08 15:27:16
subject: <b>Responses part 2, still in reverse order</b>
body:
Fisher King - I've read and re-read it.  It really sounds like part of it physically leaves the confines of the gate, by at least a few feet.  I might be interpreting it poorly, but...<br /><br />Mind Candy - Thanks.  I'll disagree with your first points because Jordan's response was &quot;Something that has previously happened in the series... revealed...&quot;  There's no &quot;revelation&quot; to the readers that Rand's decision to meet with the Seanchan will have a terrible cost - it's obvious.  Also &quot;previously happened in the series&quot; just cannot mean &quot;from the last book.&quot;  Jordan tends to speak with precision.  The other Seanchan option also seems unlikely to me. Moiraine's rescue, on the other hand - that I can see (especially if the cost is related to her need for rescue in the first place)... <br /><br />itsme - I'm glad we agree on something.  I freely admit I could be totally wrong about MS getting out.<br /><br />Cannoli - Point conceded.  I thought he was just pumping Saidin into SL, maybe using SL's taint to attract the DO's taint; I never really thought about the two taints destroying each other.  The mechanics were less interesting to me than the action, honestly (I'm also less inclined to re-read the newer books).  Not to it nit-pick, but raw Saidin doesn't seem to have a healthy effect on any &quot;real&quot; matter (rocks, as seen in the Eye of the World).<br /><br />Dark Diggler - I never read anything that led me to believe that MS &quot;got&quot; anything from Fain.  Verin's dialogue in the Gret Hunt led me to believe that Fain did actually set MS on Rand.  Again, I might have missed something.<br /><br />Aahzmandius - I'll reply to that point later, as a response to that earlier point.  Clearly, you've looked on my works and known despair, to paraphrase the poem.<br /><br />Linda sedai - Completely right.  I've made some big assumptions, but I'd have had no theory without it.  It always seemed to make sense to me that the Saidin-ness of the Ways' origins was what caused MS, and the collapse (because of a slow decay followed by &quot;madness&quot; (MS)).  I called sharah &quot;hyper-chess&quot; just to be brief, since so much of my theory was, well, not brief.  You're also right about the bloodlines - purely my mistake.<br /><br />nettles - thanks, and thanks for handling the &quot;jesus&quot; thing for me.<br /><br />B3arz3rg3r - You're completely right.  Somehow, I totally forgot about that.  I could defend myself by saying that it might be totally different when the destruction of waygate is through Saidar instead of Saidin, but it's still a stretch.  I did completely forget about that...<br /><br />Heiti - I think it's certainly a possibility.  It would require a whole lot of nearly-baseless assumption to expand on that point - which is why I offer it for other people to consider and expand upon.  People are talking to and interacting with people who aren't alive, though...<br /><br />Foxhead - This whole series of books could end with Jordan writing his own version of the last days of jesus, and how it was actually an attempt to keep the DO from breaking out (as opposed to granting salvation for all xians).<br /><br />arun - thanks for responding to Voscaia Sedai.<br /><br />Voscaia Sedai - given how dismissive you were, the fact that in my supposition-filled theory &quot;waygate location&quot; was the biggest problem you chose to point out, and how wrong you actually were about it, I'm only happy that I didn't have to respond to that personally.


created: 2005-07-08 17:37:48
subject: <b>using the Bowl of the Winds</b>
body:
Not sure, but a possibility.  The bowl evoked saidin, but saidin was still tainted.  Also, the bowl wasn't designed for worldwide effects.  Using it so my have mal effects, or it might have spread a bit of taint all over the world.<br /><br />Or, the effects distort using the power.  Maybe the power can't be used in the future?<br /><br />I'm not sure of any of this, just a possibility.


created: 2005-07-08 21:05:23
subject: <b>Response to reptile</b>
body:
It's definitely possible that using the bowl could have had some kind of effect on saidar as well; the Forsaken say that they were never used to affect vast areas, and it's likely that the bowl was meant to be used by male and female channelers.  I don't think there's been any device shown that actually uses one of the halves of the OP on its own...  If the power can't be used at all anymore, though, then there's no way that our heroes have a chance of winning the Last Battle.


created: 2005-07-09 05:09:58
subject: <b>Response to NewYorkerSedai's response</b>
body:
NewYorkerSedai - You said 'Duh. You scarcely deserve more of a response, because if you read the first paragraphs (in an admittedly long-winded &quot;theory&quot; you'll see that I'm trying to stimulate some discussion, and offer a couple of possibilities. I mean, seriously - the only way you couldn't come up with a whole lot of other things that could have &quot;a terrible cost&quot; is if you didn't read the books at all. My goal was to pick one or two that I haven't seen discussed, both related to the Taint's removal, and run with that. So I say &quot;Duh, brainiac. Your list doesn't deserve a pat on the back.&quot;'<br /><br />That was in response to my off-top-of-head list of possible events with terrible costs. What you may not have realised was that I was not specifically responding to your theory, but to both your theory and to people's replies.<br /><br />You say you wanted to stimulate discussion. My list will help to stimulate discussion by giving people more ideas. My list was in no way intended to belittle your theory. Your theory is quite good, and your idea is quite possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-12 12:54:09
subject: <b>balefire</b>
body:
Have you considered balefire?  From the 2nd book on, Jordan harps on its dangers, and yet Rand used it very liberally at first, with the only consequence that we have seen having been resuscitation of Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean.  I rather suspect it's balefire.


created: 2005-07-19 17:58:37
subject: <b>Come to think of it...</b>
body:
You mention that Machin Shin might get out of the Ways, but I think it's more likely that Mashadar (forgive me if thta's the wrong name...) will move away from SL. Remember, there is no way to kill Mashadar, and it was never truly tied to the city. Mordeth was tainted by it, then brought it to them once their lust for Justice had tainted the earth. Even given that the big, cloudy monster has never left before, remember that Fain carries the taint of SL, the seeds of Mashadar, with him wherever he goes, and he's already become so strong that he can fill an area with Mashadar-like fog. How long until he can spawn another Mashadar?


created: 2005-07-27 13:33:06
subject: <b>an amalgam of comments</b>
body:
I believe that the Waygate destruction was final<br />think of them in terms of male Travelling.  When Saidin is used to open a doorway, the channeler essentially burrows a hole through the pattern, then prevents that tunnel from collapsing by maintaining the weave.  When the Waygate was destroyed, the tunnel Between two Patterns (Randland &amp; the Ways) collapsed, and the weaves of the Patterns bounced back to their original state<br /><br />I think what was meant by Fain &#8216;tainting&#8217; Machin Shin was in reference to MS essentially eating souls, including what was left of Fain&#8217;s.  It was only Fain&#8217;s unique nature that allowed him to survive, and afterwards the it was as if Fain and MS were family, but more than that.  MS inherited some of Fain&#8217;s &#8216;gifts,&#8217; such as an intense hatred for Rand and co.<br /><br />Saidin was not pumped into Shadar Logoth, the Taint was, through a funnel of Saidin and Saidar<br /><br />inspiration for the Taint removal was derived at least somewhat from Rand&#8217;s experiences with his un-healing wound, and what has been shared with him by those who have attempted to Heal it<br />it was said that the only reason that Rand could survive the combined injuries was that the evil contained in them battled each other as much as they did Rand<br /><br />interesting idea about spreading the Taint with the Bowl<br /><br />think of Mashadar as a fungus<br />the main body of the fungus can be destroyed, but the few spores deposited in Fain survived, essentially able to start the entire process over again.  While this would be a disaster for that doomed city, I do not believe that it fits Jordan&#8217;s hint at what is to come.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The past is buried.  Let it rest in peace.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-27 23:33:00
subject: <b>Response to aielyn</b>
body:
Sorry about being harsh -  your response seemed a bit dismissive in the extreme; type often loses what voices/in person conversation conveys easily.  They're all good ideas, and I welcome you to expound on them when and as you wish...


created: 2005-08-03 14:51:11
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
I don't really agree about Mashadar getting free --- Waygates were destroyed before by AS, albeit by different means and with mixed results.  <br />This whole &quot;terrible cost&quot; thing has me more on edge than any of the ongoing plot lines, and I'm happy to see some discussion of it.  <br />I do agree that the Cleansing will be integral to the &quot;terrible cost&quot;.  I thought it was ominous that the female access key was melted, as I really think that the good guys might need to use that again.  <br />Also, I think somebody mentioned Loial's story about when an insufficient # of AS tried to destroy a waygate and that a couple of them got sucked in --- doesn't that sound similar to what was happening to Moggy during the cleansing?  Did we ever hear/see her after this?<br />Again -- it's great to see this under discussion.<br /><br />


created: 2005-09-01 15:02:49
subject: <b>Is this too simple?</b>
body:
This might be too simple, but when I read this RJ blurb the first thing that came to my mind was the cleansing of sadin. My thought was that since it was the use of saidin in sealing the DO's prison that allowed him to taint it, perhaps the use of saidar (along with sadin) to cleanse saidin somehow put the female half of the souce within the DO's reach. <br /><br />One thing about other theories: In order to fit what RJ is saying wouldn't it have to be something that everything thought was great at first? Some things like Taim being made M'Hael would probably not qualify as things the readers were exited about the benefits of before it then turns sour on us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality for mingling dreams to scurry back and get in line.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-05 20:51:32
subject: <b>I rather agree</b>
body:
that the most likely culprit is when Rand balefires Rahvin. Who knows what kind of repercussions that one action could have had. Balefire of that magnitude could have done incalculable damage to the pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 08:59:10
subject: <b>I think we know what it is now...SPOILERS</b>
body:
From the KOD reviews plus Jordan's blog we can safely say what this refers to (down to two possibilities). Don't read if you want to find out what it is until the book comes out.<br /><br /><br />Still reading?<br /><br /><br />Okay, here it is.<br /><br /><br /><br />1) (less likely) Semirhage has nuked Seanchan, to all intents and purposes, wiping out the Imperial Court and plunging the continent into civil war. Likely tens of thousands of innocent people are dead. This is a consequence of Tuon coming to the Westlands and the threat (from the Prophecies of the Dragon) that she will lead the Seanchan in allying with Rand.<br /><br />2) (more likely), the destruction of the female Choedan Kal statue on Tremalking in Winter's Heart has convinced the Amayar that the Time of Illusions has ended and they've all killed themselves. Tens of thousands of them. That's hardcore. The only problem with this is we've only met exactly 1 Amayar in the whole series and that was for five minutes at the end of WH. So, whilst it's pretty shocking, it's not like we've been given any emotional investment in the Amayars' demise. This also ties in with Jordan's blog statement about the GASP moment being reminiscent of hearing about a big hurricane killing thousands of people on the other side of the world. There's also a second consequence here, namely that with just the one statue Rand can only use half of the Choedan Kal's power to take on the Dark One at the Last Battle, which may cost him dearly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i>www.thewertzone.blogspot.com</i></b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-01 11:51:11
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Hmmmmmmmmm...........interesting................<br />not sure i agree, but...........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mother always told me the best way to learn to deal with a man was to learn to ride a mule. She said they have about equal brains most of the time.Sometimes the mule is smarter.<br />     -Egwene al'Vere<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 18:37:36
subject: <b>similar theory</b>
body:
i like your theory, and my first thought on his terrible cost is similar. In the eye of the world moiraine destroys a door to a waygate near fal dara, and comments on how she was only hoping machin shin could not get out, and at the time it didn't. maybe it is that waygate that machin shin will soon rediscover with the ability to leave now....besides if rand destryoed shadar logoth so totally, i'm sure the waygate would have been completely removed too...


created: 2007-01-20 03:57:57
subject: <b>two evils</b>
body:
It has been made clear that the two evils of the DO and SL are in direct conflict of one and another. This is why  the two wounds counteract each other. That is where the whole idea for cleansing the taint at SL comes from. As for Machin Shin I believe it to be the seaping of the evil of SL into the Ways via the way gate (every pebble is tainted) and not the taint on the OP that caused the Ways to go dark, and the birth of MS.


created: 2005-07-04 09:07:46
subject: <b>This is contradicted by a lot in the last few books</b>
body:
Note: Perrin and co. will go to Caemlyn after the Shaido are dealt with. Duh.<br /><br />I don't know what your point is here.<br /><br />1. Perrin and Elayne hardly know each other. The only times they met was briefly in Falme (if they even saw each other at all, before splitting apart a few days later) and again in Tear, though even then they only saw each other briefly. According to Perrin, Elayne seems a pleasant young woman and is a bit taken with herself (emphasis mine) (A Crown of Swords, Hill of the Golden Dawn). Do those words seem like the words used to describe someone you&#8217;ve had more than just a passing acquaintance with? Especially when Elayne is far from pleasant, and way, way, way more than just a bit taken with herself.<br /><br />Well, everyone seems to get along with her, and even Mat admits she can come off okay.  ONE character thinks she has an attitude, and that's Mat.  On the other hand, her four closest friends in the world are daughters of an innkeeper, a miner and a farmer, and an Aiel woman.  None of whom are the sort a haughty unpleasant woman befriends.  Not only that, she has very close relationships with three Two Rivers people, none of whom are very good at showing nobles proper respect or deference, and she is for many characters, the only noble they think positiviely of.  She's always trying to make peace between whatever people she is among, she is constantly holding herself up to some imaginary ideal of the perfect queen and hero, and has a much higher opinion of her friends than many of them do themselves.  And they all think more highly of her than she does herself.  You're character assessment is completely off base.<br /><br />2. When Morgase entered Perrin&#8217;s and Faile&#8217;s service, she stated later on that the only reason she did it was so she could gain information that might be of use to Elayne (The Path of Daggers, A Simple Country Woman). Jordan does nothing without making it its own subplot, and so far Morgase entering service has done absolutely nothing for anybody except bring her closer to Tallanvor. The last point of view we had from her was when she told Tallanvor her reasons for entering service, so who can say what information she did learn? <br /><br />Nothing she would consider useful.  I doubt Perrin or Faile talk much about Rand, who Morgase is interested in.  They know only a fraction of his plans and activity.  And you seem to be assuming that people will get what they want out of a situation, instead of something completely different.  WoT tends more to the second option in that you go into a situation aiming at one thing, and getting something else entirely.  We cannot assume anything based on the expectations of a flighty, often wrong woman.<br /><br />3. According to Elayne, a lot of nobles weren&#8217;t supporting her because Rand had said he intended to &#8220;give&#8221; her the throne, and also because of what Rahvin had made Morgase do under Compulsion (Winter&#8217;s Heart, Snow). The fact that Morgase had officially relinquished throne and High Seat in Elayne&#8217;s favor gives Elayne an undisputed right to claim the throne, and can help clear the mess Rand had made. And also, if Morgase goes to Caemlyn, then it gives her a perfect opportunity to clear up her name.<br /><br />If Morgase turns up alive and endorses Elayne, that will drive Ellorien and others who are aggreived by her actions further away.  She is assumed to be dead, so it is not a legal technicality that is holding people from supporting Elayne.  Also, the official story Rahvin used was that Morgase had abdicated in favor of him.  Morgase's little oath in aCoS was simply to shut up any readers who might carp that Elayne is usurping her mother's throne.  Considering Elayne won't admit any acquaintanceship with Rand, she might even suppress Morgase herself if she goes public in Caemlyn.<br /><br />4. Morgase can offer moral support for Elayne, and a lot of guidance regarding Andor and the throne. Elayne seriously needs her mother at a time like this. And plus, Elayne thinks her mother is dead &#8211; sooner or later, she has to realize that her mother is actually alive. <br /><br />Elayne seems a better ruler already than Morgase.  Elayne at least is determined not to rule Andor for the White Tower, and that seems to be exactly what Morgase did, both in her letting Siuan push Andor's national hero around to further the interests of a Murandian terrorist, and what help she gave Elaida that made Thom call her a puppet of Tar Valon.  Andorans who were perfectly willing to sing the national anthem and cheer the army leading the false Dragon in chains through Caemlyn were rioting against Morgase because of her slavish devotion to the Tower.  And her judgement has been atrocious throughout the series, from walking into a WC trap in Amador, to flaking out over Tallanvor, including betraying her country to keep him from being hung.  I suspect Morgase is highly over-rated, the same way JFK is in the USA.    <br /><br />5. Perrin and Elayne have yet to settle the issue of the Red Eagle banner. Although it is a little confusing as to what Perrin is going to peal, exactly &#8211; he might insist that he means nothing by it, and that he&#8217;s just going to explain how it was necessary, but also completely harmless, but at this point the Two Rivers men (and Faile, of course) aren&#8217;t going to give up the idea of Manetheren so easy as that. So&#8230; really. That needs to be cleared up, and we can find out once and for all whether Manetheren really will be resurrected.<br /><br />6. Bashere&#8217;s army of Saldaean light cavalry, which consists of about eight thousand men, is camped about twenty miles west of Caemlyn, along with the Legion of the Dragon. Twenty miles is very close. That's a day&#8217;s march (less than half a day, if the army is fast as the Band). Then there is the Borderland Alliance, which consists of about two hundred thousand light cavalry. They are in or around Braem Wood, moving south through Andor with the destination of Murandy, where they expect to see the Dragon Reborn. Now of all the characters, Perrin has the strongest connection to the Borderlands (Nynaeve will soon, if Lan will ever get off his ass and reinstate Malkier), so sooner or later he&#8217;s going to have to meet up with them. And if Tenobia is going to die, and Bashere does choose to abdicate the throne in his daughter&#8217;s favor, it&#8217;s going to be then. And as for the rest of the Borderland alliance&#8230; well, so far Elayne has sent them on a wild goose chase all the way south to Lugard (where Rand is nowhere near). They&#8217;ll be pretty pissed off when they realize that they won&#8217;t get Rand, but seeing one of Rand&#8217;s best friends will ease some of the sting, especially when Perrin can keep them from going all the way to Lugard (and then Perrin can bring them to Rand for real, and learn something of being a Borderland general from Agelmar Jagad. Heck, even Bashere could give him a few pointers).<br /><br />Perrin knows NONE of this!!!  He is on an important mission, and while he might divert to rescue his wife from evil savages who don't even follow their own laws, he isn't going to stop in to visit his father-in-law.  The Borderlanders have camped out in the north of Andor, and Elayne will let Rand know about them, if he doesn't find out another way, long before they get to Murandy.  And they won't care who Perrin is unless he can let them know where Rand is, which he can't.  And might not.  If there was a 200,000 man army looking for my friend, I sure wouldn't tell them where he is.<br /><br />7. The Prophet still has to be dealt with, whether or not Masema falls off a horse and breaks his neck and over half his followers gets speared fighting the Shaido. And it was Rand&#8217;s last order to Perrin, after all. And since Illian and Tear are under threat of the Seanchan, and Andor is off-limits to Rand, that&#8217;s going to have to be settled in Cairhien, and Caemlyn is just on the way. (Whether he actually gets to Cairhien is debatable, but this gives him a good reason to set off in that direction to begin with.)<br /><br />He is a lot closer to making friends with the Seanchan than with any Andorans, so he might be more likely to head southeast, having already learned that Rand has taken Illian.  Otherwise, he'll have to ride through Andor to reach Cairhien, which he should learn just enough about to know it won't be the smartest idea.  With an alliance with Seanchan forces, he will likely find it easier to cut through their territory to reach Rand.<br /><br />8. Alliandre, also in Perrin&#8217;s company, has yet to let it be publicly known that she supports Rand&#8230; and also that she ceded her throne and country to Perrin, so he&#8217;s technically the King of Ghealdan now. That has to be settled &#8211; Perrin can either release her from her oath (not likely); or claim the throne, name himself King, and throw Alliandre out on her face; or he can keep her as a puppet Queen like the Seanchan do. But either way, Rand does have to learn about it, and either Perrin tells him in Cairhien or he can give the message to Elayne. <br /><br />He doesn't HAVE to do any of that stuff!  Did you get your degree in royal law in a WoT university?  In the real world Kings have been vassals of others without losing their authority over their kingdoms.  The king of England was a vassal of the king of France for several centuries.  Another king of England swore fealty to the Pope. Kings of Bohemia (the modern Czech republic) were vassals of the Holy Roman Emperor, and one of the seven electors of the Emperor.  They weren't puppets of the Emperor either.  He knows none of what has passed between Rand and Elayne since Tear (semen, mostly), but given all the stress on the secrecy of his operation, he is highly unlikely to pass along information through a casual acquaintance, especially considering he is concerned about her possible reaction to his banners.<br /><br />9. Then there&#8217;s the Shaido. All I&#8217;m going to say is that they&#8217;re going to be wiped out for good. I won&#8217;t theorize (like the Whitecloaks stepping in and Galad meeting Berelain, or Mat sending in his Band to help out). But whatever happens with the Shaido, Rand is going to have to know about it, and any hostages, gai&#8217;shain, and/or algai&#8217;d&#8217;siswai are going to have to be settled, and that will, of course, have to be done by Rand.<br /><br />Do you have ANY supporting evidence?  There is just as much evidence to suggest they will have a change of heart, overthrow Sevanna, and become Rand's staunchest supporters as there is that they will be wiped out.  Okay, Perrin intends to, but if they came to him and said, &quot;Here's Faile and her friends back, just let us go massacre a few towns,&quot; he'd take the deal.  Rarely in WoT do people actually get to do what they set their minds to.  As far as your belief, you amy be right, but show some reason to assume that.  It is one thing to imagine how the rest of the story could go in the privacy of your head, and quite another to base a Theory Post on your imaginings, without any evidence to support your claim.<br /><br />10. Lastly, there&#8217;s Loial, who, at the moment, is with Rand. Loial has been with Perrin for a long time, and they&#8217;ve become the very best of friends. Perrin will definitely meet up with him again soon. And if Perrin ever does restore the Ways Loial will have to be with him.<br /><br />PERRIN DOESN'T KNOW WHERE LOIAL IS!!!  None of this is a reason why Perrin would go to Caemlyn.  Will Perrin go to Caemlyn or Tear?  Make up your mind.  He last Loial heading off from Cairhien, the last place he saw Rand.  He has no reason to look for either of them anywhere but Cairhien or maybe Illian for Rand.<br /><br />PS: I tried to stay away from time constraints. I don&#8217;t know when all of these things will come into play &#8211; like, for example, if Rand will deal with the Prophet and his followers before or after the issue with Suroth is cleared. Or if they even do come into play. Same example would be if Perrin heads off to Cairhien to deal with the Prophet, then every Prophet drops dead and he gets sidetracked with other things (Elayne, Egwene). But either way, it doesn&#8217;t matter. Whenever they come into play, they will sooner or later, and if they don&#8217;t, they&#8217;ll at least get Perrin going in that direction.<br /><br />What direction?  Caemlyn?  This is all very muddled.<br /><br />And PPS: Personally, I think that Rand will be taken to the White Tower, since there&#8217;s definitely thirteen Black Ajah, Egwene&#8217;s Accepted test vision will come true, Semhirage and Mesanna have always been close chums (which was shown when the Forsaken had their meeting), and as far as I&#8217;m concerned the Light doesn&#8217;t know Alviarin was Black Ajah and the Shadow doesn&#8217;t know Elaida put Alviarin in her place. And since Tar Valon isn&#8217;t very far from Caemlyn or Cairhien, I think Perrin will head off there (&#8216;cause he doesn&#8217;t even know Egwene is Amyrlin, at this point, and hasn&#8217;t seen her since the Shadow Rising, along with Mat). So, just in case you all wondered when the heck all of this would happen what with everybody&#8217;s busy schedules, there you have it. <br /><br />If he does not know Egwene is Amyrlin, why would he go to Tar Valon?  To confess to a strage Amyrlin Seat that he has been giving orders to Aes Sedai who swore fealty to his best friend?  Or that he attacked a bunch of Aes Sedai to free a male channeler from them?  This makes no sense.  Get some facts and supporting evidence and present it in a clear manner for your next theory, please.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-04 11:57:40
subject: <b>Well,</b>
body:
I think that this theory is interesting, and probably right, but I don't think that the majority of the evidence you used necessarily points to the conclusion.  Like Cannoli said, the majority of the things you take for granted are things unknown to Perrin at the time. However, one thing that speaks in your favor is that Rand wants Masema brought to him.  <br /><br />When Perrin left Rand, Rand was in Caemlyn, and of course, Rand is going to be constantly moving.  However, there is no indication that Perrin has heard rumors about or knows about Rand taking over Illian.  Therefore, Caemlyn would be the closest of Rand's conquered lands to go to.  <br /><br />And he has Morgase, and she's got to come out with her identity sometime, even if she doesn't come out with it publiclly (which I think will be the end of that little subplot, after Elenia and Elayne split the remaining houses, making it a succession, which Elayne automatically wins).  <br /><br />Anyways, interesting theory, if a bit sketchy off your evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 03:23:53
subject: <b>Sounds good to me.</b>
body:
I'm inclined to agree with your basic premise, if not all of the &quot;collateral damage.&quot;  The rebel Aes Sedai (technically, without the Tower, that's what they are, regardless of our feelings) have been passed by two tortoises and a snail since leaving Salidar despite Travelling some of the way.  The only reason the Tower is still split after gathering in the Kin is to allow the uncovery of the Black Ajah inside, and hearts or no hearts, one by one they will be revealed, and that ultimately leads to Alviarin, then Mesaana.  Personally, I think the resolution of that will tip the balance of power to Egwene et al.  Elaida would never have pulled down Siuan without the Whites, and that leads again to Alviarin; when it's revealed that a) much of the leadership within the Tower is Black Ajah and b) the Reds, specifically including Elaida, have been using False Dragons as strawmen to increase their power these will be the anvils that break the camels back for Aes Sedai in Tar Valon, many of whom had misgivings about what amounted to a rebellion itself, but stayed because loyal to their Ajahs, and loyal to the Amyrlin (however she gains the title.)  Their ultimate loyalty is to the Tower, and if they stayed to save the Tower, they'll welcome Egwene and the rebels for the same reason, with the revelation of ferrets likely leading to others on the other side of the fence.  By the time Perrin, Rand, or any other outsider gets to Tar Valon they will find Egwene firmly in control of the whole place.  The real question is whether Mesaana will still be lurking after the Black Ajah is rooted out (she doesn't need to pose as a &quot;mere&quot; Black sister to know what's going on and not doing so prevents her revelation by any heart.)<br /><br />Meanwhile, yes, the Manetheren thing needs resolution, and yes, Jordan has Elayne (not to mention Rand, who feels responsible) thinking Morgase is dead so we can get all misty eyed with them at the reunion, and to whom is she currently attached (once free of the Shaido anyway, which is a whole other issue; if Rand knew that, though I don't see how he could find out, he'd be there in a literal flash ready to erase a name from his mental chalkboard)  Has anyone else noticed the Two Rivers is closder to Maradon than Caemlyn?  I expect that one plays out that way, though Queens can be prickly about regions they've ruled for centuries.  Cairhien and Ghealdan might provide a so for that though (and maybe Illian too, which makes you wonder what happens to Altara and Murandy (though not much.))  Before all's said and done, we could conceivably see the map approach that in Hawkwings day: Randland (Tear, Illian, Cairhien, Andor, Altara, Murandy, Ghealdan,) Perrinland (the Borderlands and Manetheren, though he might get Gheldan the way things have gone) and Matland (the areas conquered by the Seanchan, probably with Arad Doman and lands between thrown in.)  How's that for a speculative theory?  Much more outlandish than the one starting this thread, with whose basic concept, as I said, I agree. <br /><br />Add to that Perrin almost HAS to take Masema to Rand, whether he wants to or not because a) Masema will insist on it and b) the lunatic won't backdown for anyone else, and I believe (though I could be wrong; it's hard to keep track of who knows what with everyone separated) that last Perrin knew Caemlyn was where Rand was (and ban or no ban will be again soon; the secret of his kids keeps for days, not months.)  If he wasn't missing a wife and several servants they'd probably be there now.  Speaking of not backing down, while it's true things rarely go as planned in WoT, the Aiel are stubborn, the Shaido are obstinate even for Aiel, and with ji thrown in they WON'T back down while Sevanna lives (and maybe not then either.)  That leaves one option....<br /><br />I still don't get all the Elayne bashing; personally I think she's the pick of the litter, but then I'm partial to leggy blondes (why does Rand get the Neapolitan fantasy?  Ta'veren?)  Aren't there enough Forsaken, Whitecloaks and (other) Darkfriends to hate?  Will somebody please balefire Ishamael?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 18:08:48
subject: <b>Cannoli...</b>
body:
I said in my theory: <b>Or if they even do come into play. Same example would be if Perrin heads off to Cairhien to deal with the Prophet, then every Prophet drops dead <u>and he gets sidetracked with other things (Elayne, Egwene).</u></b> <br /><br />And I also said:<br /><br /><b>Whenever they come into play, they will sooner or later, <u>and if they don&#8217;t, they&#8217;ll at least get Perrin going in that direction.</u></b><br /><br />So why the hell did you proceed to say THIS:<br /><br /><b>And you seem to be assuming that people will get what they want out of a situation, instead of something completely different. WoT tends more to the second option in that you go into a situation aiming at one thing, and getting something else entirely.</b><br /><br />As well as THIS:<br /><br /><b>Perrin knows NONE of this!!! </b> (the Borderland armies near Caemlyn) <br /><b>PERRIN DOESN'T KNOW WHERE LOIAL IS!!!</b><br /><br />You said it better than I could ever hope. Perrin will set off doing one thing (like bringing Masema to Rand) and will wind up, in typical WOT fashion, doing something else (like going to Elayne).<br /><br />And as for Perrin not knowing anything about the Borderland armies or Loial's whereabouts... I'm not an idiot, I know that. In my theory I said several times that Perrin will end up in Caemlyn; not that he would consciously choose it as his destination. The bulk of my theory was to show you what there was for him in Caemlyn. And when there's more stuff for you there than anywhere else, or to a place that falls along the same road, it can be pretty much assumed that is where he will, somehow, somewhen, wind up. Much in the same way he ended up in Altara when he was only supposed to be in Ghealdan, and wound up knee-dip in Shaido affairs. Masema refused to go through a gateway, so Perrin had to travel the traditional way, and Altara was just on the way. Well, pretty much the same will happen now. Perrin will set off to Cairhien to finish the issue of Masema, which is an issue that he knows about. Instead, he will be pulled (by the Pattern, or whatever you want to call it) to Caemlyn, to deal with issues he does not know about but are just as important (if not more) than finishing off the Prophet. Just like he had to deal with the Shaido, of which he knew nothing about, but was an extremely important matter all the same.<br /><br /><b>Note: Perrin and co. will go to Caemlyn after the Shaido are dealt with. Duh.<br /><br />I don't know what your point is here.</b><br /><br />But then you said...<br /><br /><b>He is on an important mission, and while he might divert to rescue his wife from evil savages who don't even follow their own laws, he isn't going to stop in to visit his father-in-law. </b><br /><br />He won't be postponing Faile's rescue because it will be after Faile's rescue. And as far as diversions go... The Prophet can't cause much damage when he's travelling with Perrin, so the destruction he causes will be limited (to probably only Perrin's army, as it is now). So he can wait a little bit longer. On the other hand, there are currently four very pissed-off Borderland monarchs at the Lord Dragon Reborn. Rand will understand if Perrin makes a quick stop to settle them down. Then there's Elayne. Rand loves her, so if Perrin steps in to lend her a few soldiers for her army, Rand will bless him for it. What else? Oh, Bashere? Bashere isn't very highly considered at the moment, and Tenobia is furious with him for the rumors she heard about him and Mazrim Taim. Bashere will be far more useful to Rand when his Queen isn't cursing his very existence. In the long haul, having a united Andor under a Queen who Rand actually loves and trusts, and the Borderland monarchs also united beneath him (and no longer mad as hell at him), will help Rand a lot more than dealing with the Prophet two weeks earlier instead of two weeks later. Especially when those vagabonds are currently being watched by his friend anyway.<br /><br /><b>You're character assessment is completely off base.</b><br /><br />Aviendha: <i>[Elayne] knows she is beautiful, knows the power it gives over men. She exposes half her bosom sometimes, in the open air, and she smiles to make men do what she wants.</i><br /><br />Rand: <i>Elayne is so beautiful I can't help staring, but half the time I don't know whether she wants me to kiss her or kneel at her feet.</i><br /><br />Birgitte: <i>I will defend you when you are in danger, but if the danger is only of being turned over someone's knee because you've behaved like a spoiled child, I will have to decide whether it's better to let you learn a lesson that might save you the same or worse another time.</i><br /><br />Even the people who love Elayne the most agree that she can be completely stuck-up. And when you're acting like a brat, you're not very pleasant. So, no, my character assessment isn't way off base. Yes, once you get to really know Elayne (of which Perrin does not), you can see more than just her nose in the air, but even then you can't deny that she can be a brat. You just love her anyway.<br /><br /><b>Nothing she would consider useful. I doubt Perrin or Faile talk much about Rand, who Morgase is interested in. </b><br /><br />Did I say it had to be about Rand? In fact, I doubt that it would be, because it's not like Elayne would ever use anything against him. And as for Perrin and Faile... actually, they are both very free around their servants. Morgase was present during the whole meeting between Alliandre and Perrin, and even stayed to witness Faile's private conversation (that she had Annoura ward, even) with Alliandre and Berelain after Perrin had gone. And like you said, <b>you go into a situation aiming at one thing, and getting something else entirely.</b> So I guess that that would apply with Morgase going in to find something about Rand, and instead finding out something else entirely that has nothing to do with Rand.<br /><br /><b>He doesn't HAVE to do any of that stuff! Did you get your degree in royal law in a WoT university? In the real world Kings have been vassals of others without losing their authority over their kingdoms. </b><br /><br />Rand thinks he needs to rule every single nation, and have them completely and one hundred percent behind him, in order to win the Last Battle. Before Perrin came in, Ghealdan and its Queen had been at the mercy of the Prophet and his followers. The fact that they were obedient to the Prophet gives Rand a very large reason to learn as much as he can about it.<br /><br />Furthermore, when Faile forced Alliandre to follow her and Perrin, she stated that it was because she felt that, left on her own, Alliandre would once again submit herself to any new threat to her country, just as she did to the Prophet, oaths be damned. So Alliandre's little secret letter to Rand means nothing, when she is currently under a habit of submitting to larger threats. <br /><br />And, for that matter, Ghealdan is a small nation up against the Almoth Plains, Amadicia, Tarabon, and Altara, all Seanchan nations (except Amadicia, which was given over to the Whitecloaks). The Queen is gone, the Prophet (who had been controlling everybody in Ghealdan) is gone, and with the Queen went about a thousand of her Lancers. That puts Ghealdan in a very murky position, especially when its people and Queen had spent the better part of the year acquiescing themselves to the Prophet's every last wish. If the Seanchan or the Whitecloaks decided to conquer it, there would be little resistance.<br /><br />Lastly, about monarchs who have sworn fealty and maintained their authority... they are still puppets. Authority or not, when it comes down to it, they are still subject to whatever their lord or lady demands of them. The only difference is that a Roman Emperor wouldn't really care about the governings of Bohemia unless he wanted something or felt threatened by them. But all boiled down, when the lord and lady gives an order, the vassal must obey. But it's not like Rand will leave Ghealdan alone, with a Queen who would betray him to anybody out of fear and several enemy-nations surrounding it, when he's desperate to have every single nation united under him for the Last Battle. <br /><br />So, no, I think Rand really needs to know about what's going on in Ghealdan. <br /><br /><b>Do you have ANY supporting evidence? There is just as much evidence to suggest they will have a change of heart, overthrow Sevanna, and become Rand's staunchest supporters as there is that they will be wiped out.</b><br /><br />Which is why I said this...<br /><br /><b>But whatever happens with the Shaido, Rand is going to have to know about it, and any hostages, gai&#8217;shain, and/or algai&#8217;d&#8217;siswai are going to have to be settled, and that will, of course, have to be done by Rand.</b><br /><br />Maybe you didn't understand what I meant. The majority of the Shaido do not believe Rand is the true Car'a'carn. They are Aiel. They will not say, &quot;Well, looks like we're defeated, we'll just run back to Rand with our tails between our legs like some whipped puppy dogs.&quot; They are going to fight to the death, especially because they believe they are in the right. But I don't think every Shaido alive is going to be butchered - there will be survivors, since quite a few seem to believe that Sevanna is taking it too far, <u>which is why they will have to be taken to Rand.</u><br /><br /><b>If he does not know Egwene is Amyrlin, why would he go to Tar Valon? To confess to a strage Amyrlin Seat that he has been giving orders to Aes Sedai who swore fealty to his best friend? Or that he attacked a bunch of Aes Sedai to free a male channeler from them? This makes no sense. Get some facts and supporting evidence and present it in a clear manner for your next theory, please.</b><br /><br />Well, he has to face her sooner or later, doesn't he?<br /><br />And for that matter, you are forgetting that Perrin is going to be spending his time with or near Elayne and Aviendha, both who just happen to be bonded to Rand. If Suroth managed to clap a collar around Rand's throat and whisked him away all the way from Illian to Tar Valon in a gateway, Elayne and Aviendha would definitely know something was up. If Perrin wasn't with her, then Elayne would at least know where he was in order to Travel and let him know something's wrong with Rand and he's up past Caemlyn somewhere (and, oh yeah, Egwene is the Amyrlin of the rebel Aes Sedai). That's if those colors Perrin sees doesn't tell him first. I think that's a pretty good reason to go to Tar Valon, don't you?<br /><br />And, one more thing. Why would he be afraid of Egwene? Everything he did he did because he had to. He doesn't even know Elayne and he thinks that she will be lenient with him about the banner. He grew up with Egwene. And he wouldn't believe she would take her role as Amyrlin as seriously as that. And, furthermore, right now Egwene is only feeding on rumours when it comes to the Sisters swearing fealty to Rand. She has to find out the truth sooner or later. So, really, there isn't much reason for him to avoid her, and no reason at all for him to leave Rand in potential danger to continue avoiding her. <br /><br /><b>Elayne seems a better ruler already than Morgase. </b><br /><br />Hah! No she isn't. <br /><br />If she were sitting on the Lion Throne right now, Elayne would be the best Queen there ever was, and a thousand times better than Morgase.<br /><br />The problem, though, is that Elayne isn't likely to get on that throne to be the best Queen. She has what it takes to be a Queen, but not what it takes to become one. Morgase had the full support of her people, and in a nation like Andor, that is more important than a strong will and a smart brain in order to ascend the throne. And at this moment, Elayne has nothing in her favor. Her army is the smallest in Andor, she's an Aes Sedai now that Aes Sedai are hated, she's the daughter of the Queen who ruined her people, she's encouraging the rumor that she's having some no-name guardsman's child, she's the best of friends with the Aiel, her closest ally happens to be her greatest threat... Yes, if she were on the throne she would be the best Queen. But the chances of her actually getting on that throne are pretty grim right now. If Elayne wasn't a main character, I would say there was no chance in hell she would ever be crowned Queen. <br /><br /><b>He has no reason to look for either of them anywhere but Cairhien or maybe Illian for Rand.</b><br /><br />Which is why I said he will head off to Cairhien.<br /><br />At the moment Illian is under major threat of the Seanchan, and the inhabitants don't feel much loyalty towards Rand. So if Rand does go there, it won't be often, and it won't be for a long period of time. Perrin would know that. Also, keep in mind that Perrin is going to be having a group of Prophets and Aiel with him. The reason an entire army in Illian split apart from Rand was because they thought that he was behind the Shaido and Prophet's doings. They won't take too kindly to Perrin being there with Aiel and Prophets all around him, and Perrin won't want to wait there at all for Rand to come back. So Perrin's best bet would be to go to Cairhien. And what's on the way to Cairhien? Oh, right. Caemlyn.<br /><br /><b>And they won't care who Perrin is unless he can let them know where Rand is, which he can't. And might not. If there was a 200,000 man army looking for my friend, I sure wouldn't tell them where he is.</b><br /><br />Not care? Perrin just happens to have the information Tenobia would want about Bashere and his relationship with Mazrim Taim. Perrin just happens to be Rand's best friend, and pissed off as the alliance might be when they find out Elayne led them on a wild goose chase, they'll be a lot angrier when they travel all the way across Andor and <u>then</u> find out Elayne led them on a wild goose chase. If Perrin is heading off to meet Rand, then the Borderlanders will naturally assume that following him is the best way they could meet up with Rand. And Faile just happens to be Tenobia's heir, after Faile's father. And the Borderlanders are marching in order to prove their allegiance to Rand; their problem is that they are right up against the Blight, they have the strongest armies in the mainlands, and they are unconditionally alleged to Rand, and yet he hasn't made any sort of effort to have any contact with them since the Great Hunt. They aren't going to kill him. So it's not like Perrin and Faile will feel the need to hide Rand from them. I mean, really. Not care?<br /><br /><b>The Borderlanders have camped out in the north of Andor, and Elayne will let Rand know about them, if he doesn't find out another way, long before they get to Murandy.</b><br /><br />That is why I said Perrin will meet them long before they get to Murandy, when they are still somewhere in Andor. <br /><br /><b>He is a lot closer to making friends with the Seanchan than with any Andorans, so he might be more likely to head southeast, having already learned that Rand has taken Illian. Otherwise, he'll have to ride through Andor to reach Cairhien, which he should learn just enough about to know it won't be the smartest idea. With an alliance with Seanchan forces, he will likely find it easier to cut through their territory to reach Rand.</b><br /><br />That is wrong on so many levels. <br /><br />He is about to make an alliance with the Seanchan, not be their friends. Also, there is no way in hell that the Seanchan will follow him all the way to Illian, for crying out loud, when they are on the verge of conquering it. An army of twenty thousand Dragonsworn, led into a nation they hope to get their claws on? I think not. They just want to kill the Aiel, which gives them leave to work alongside each other for that mission, alone.<br /><br />Second, he's going to have to cross Altara's borders in order to get to Illian. And the border of Altara and Illian are swarming with Seanchan. He won't pass through all of that just to get to Rand and hang around in a nation that's about to be massacred, when he can go to Cairhien, which is a nation that is fully Rand's. And right now, he's in northen Altara. If Rand was in Illian, it would be in the capital city, which is all the way back down to the Sea of Storms. He can be lucky to cross the border; he won't be lucky (or stupid enough) to go all the way down to the Sea of Storms, and surround himself from back, front, and sides with Seanchan.<br /><br />Third, that just doesn't make any sense at all. Perrin might not be likely to gain extremely strong connections with Andor, but he is likely to gain them with the Borderlands, and the Borderlands are absolutely nowhere near the Sea of Storms. And thus far Perrin has no connection whatsoever with the Borderlands, despite a wife who is third in line for the throne, so if he is to be strengthening relationships with anybody it will be them, because that will actually help Rand. Furthermore, for what you are suggesting to happen, Perrin would have to have a <u>very</u> strong connection with the Seanchan. Forming a shaky alliance with one army and fighting alongside them for one battle isn't enough to pass through their lands unharmed; and forming an alliance with one small army isn't enough for the whole freaking race to be your friend, too. <br /><br />Fourth, are you forgetting Mat? What use could all these alliances between Perrin and the Seanchan make, when Mat is the one that's going to be forming an alliance with Dragonsworn and Seanchan? If Perrin goes to Illian, and if he does form a dozen alliances with the Seanchan, what the hell good does that do Rand? Rand's already got somebody to bring him the Seanchan. He's got nobody to bring him the Borderlands. Going to Illian will do nothing for anybody. Going to Andor, however, and hooking up with the Borderlands, will do alot. <br /><br />Fifth, in response to this peice: <b>Otherwise, he'll have to ride through Andor to reach Cairhien, which he should learn just enough about to know it won't be the smartest idea.</b> Um...<br /><br />Perrin: <i>Manetheren's borders had run almost to where Murandy now stood, and with luck, he could have been into Andor, where Rand has a firm grip, beforehaving to give up the deception [of raising Manetheren].</i><br /><br />Looks like Perrin was already stupid enough to consider Andor, then, huh? <br /><br /><b>I don't know what your point is here.<br />You're character assessment is completely off base.<br />And you seem to be assuming that people will get what they want out of a situation, instead of something completely different.<br />Perrin knows NONE of this!!! <br />He doesn't HAVE to do any of that stuff! <br />Did you get your degree in royal law in a WoT university?<br />Do you have ANY supporting evidence? <br />As far as your belief, you amy be right, but show some reason to assume that.<br />It is one thing to imagine how the rest of the story could go in the privacy of your head, and quite another to base a Theory Post on your imaginings, without any evidence to support your claim.<br />PERRIN DOESN'T KNOW WHERE LOIAL IS!!!<br />Will Perrin go to Caemlyn or Tear? Make up your mind. <br />This makes no sense. Get some facts and supporting evidence and present it in a clear manner for your next theory, please.</b><br /><br />Well aren't you just one big ball of sunshine.


created: 2005-07-08 06:49:22
subject: <b>Sorry now I'm more confused than ever...</b>
body:
I said in my theory: Or if they even do come into play. Same example would be if Perrin heads off to Cairhien to deal with the Prophet, then every Prophet drops dead and he gets sidetracked with other things (Elayne, Egwene). <br /><br />And I also said:<br /><br />Whenever they come into play, they will sooner or later, and if they don&#8217;t, they&#8217;ll at least get Perrin going in that direction.<br /><br />So why the hell did you proceed to say THIS:<br /><br />And you seem to be assuming that people will get what they want out of a situation, instead of something completely different. WoT tends more to the second option in that you go into a situation aiming at one thing, and getting something else entirely.<br /><br />As well as THIS:<br /><br />Perrin knows NONE of this!!! (the Borderland armies near Caemlyn) <br />PERRIN DOESN'T KNOW WHERE LOIAL IS!!!<br /><br />You said it better than I could ever hope. Perrin will set off doing one thing (like bringing Masema to Rand) and will wind up, in typical WOT fashion, doing something else (like going to Elayne).<br /><br />And as for Perrin not knowing anything about the Borderland armies or Loial's whereabouts... I'm not an idiot, I know that. In my theory I said several times that Perrin will end up in Caemlyn; not that he would consciously choose it as his destination. The bulk of my theory was to show you what there was for him in Caemlyn. And when there's more stuff for you there than anywhere else, or to a place that falls along the same road, it can be pretty much assumed that is where he will, somehow, somewhen, wind up. Much in the same way he ended up in Altara when he was only supposed to be in Ghealdan, and wound up knee-dip in Shaido affairs. Masema refused to go through a gateway, so Perrin had to travel the traditional way, and Altara was just on the way. Well, pretty much the same will happen now. Perrin will set off to Cairhien to finish the issue of Masema, which is an issue that he knows about. Instead, he will be pulled (by the Pattern, or whatever you want to call it) to Caemlyn, to deal with issues he does not know about but are just as important (if not more) than finishing off the Prophet. Just like he had to deal with the Shaido, of which he knew nothing about, but was an extremely important matter all the same.<br /><br />Note: Perrin and co. will go to Caemlyn after the Shaido are dealt with. Duh.<br /><br />I don't know what your point is here.<br /><br />But then you said...<br /><br />He is on an important mission, and while he might divert to rescue his wife from evil savages who don't even follow their own laws, he isn't going to stop in to visit his father-in-law. <br /><br />He won't be postponing Faile's rescue because it will be after Faile's rescue. And as far as diversions go... The Prophet can't cause much damage when he's travelling with Perrin, so the destruction he causes will be limited (to probably only Perrin's army, as it is now). So he can wait a little bit longer. On the other hand, there are currently four very pissed-off Borderland monarchs at the Lord Dragon Reborn. Rand will understand if Perrin makes a quick stop to settle them down. Then there's Elayne. Rand loves her, so if Perrin steps in to lend her a few soldiers for her army, Rand will bless him for it. What else? Oh, Bashere? Bashere isn't very highly considered at the moment, and Tenobia is furious with him for the rumors she heard about him and Mazrim Taim. Bashere will be far more useful to Rand when his Queen isn't cursing his very existence. In the long haul, having a united Andor under a Queen who Rand actually loves and trusts, and the Borderland monarchs also united beneath him (and no longer mad as hell at him), will help Rand a lot more than dealing with the Prophet two weeks earlier instead of two weeks later. Especially when those vagabonds are currently being watched by his friend anyway.<br /><br />You're character assessment is completely off base.<br /><br />Aviendha: [Elayne] knows she is beautiful, knows the power it gives over men. She exposes half her bosom sometimes, in the open air, and she smiles to make men do what she wants.<br /><br />Rand: Elayne is so beautiful I can't help staring, but half the time I don't know whether she wants me to kiss her or kneel at her feet.<br /><br />Birgitte: I will defend you when you are in danger, but if the danger is only of being turned over someone's knee because you've behaved like a spoiled child, I will have to decide whether it's better to let you learn a lesson that might save you the same or worse another time.<br /><br />Even the people who love Elayne the most agree that she can be completely stuck-up. And when you're acting like a brat, you're not very pleasant. So, no, my character assessment isn't way off base. Yes, once you get to really know Elayne (of which Perrin does not), you can see more than just her nose in the air, but even then you can't deny that she can be a brat. You just love her anyway.<br /><br />Nothing she would consider useful. I doubt Perrin or Faile talk much about Rand, who Morgase is interested in. <br /><br />Did I say it had to be about Rand? In fact, I doubt that it would be, because it's not like Elayne would ever use anything against him. And as for Perrin and Faile... actually, they are both very free around their servants. Morgase was present during the whole meeting between Alliandre and Perrin, and even stayed to witness Faile's private conversation (that she had Annoura ward, even) with Alliandre and Berelain after Perrin had gone. And like you said, you go into a situation aiming at one thing, and getting something else entirely. So I guess that that would apply with Morgase going in to find something about Rand, and instead finding out something else entirely that has nothing to do with Rand.<br /><br />He doesn't HAVE to do any of that stuff! Did you get your degree in royal law in a WoT university? In the real world Kings have been vassals of others without losing their authority over their kingdoms. <br /><br />Rand thinks he needs to rule every single nation, and have them completely and one hundred percent behind him, in order to win the Last Battle. Before Perrin came in, Ghealdan and its Queen had been at the mercy of the Prophet and his followers. The fact that they were obedient to the Prophet gives Rand a very large reason to learn as much as he can about it.<br /><br />Furthermore, when Faile forced Alliandre to follow her and Perrin, she stated that it was because she felt that, left on her own, Alliandre would once again submit herself to any new threat to her country, just as she did to the Prophet, oaths be damned. So Alliandre's little secret letter to Rand means nothing, when she is currently under a habit of submitting to larger threats. <br /><br />And, for that matter, Ghealdan is a small nation up against the Almoth Plains, Amadicia, Tarabon, and Altara, all Seanchan nations (except Amadicia, which was given over to the Whitecloaks). The Queen is gone, the Prophet (who had been controlling everybody in Ghealdan) is gone, and with the Queen went about a thousand of her Lancers. That puts Ghealdan in a very murky position, especially when its people and Queen had spent the better part of the year acquiescing themselves to the Prophet's every last wish. If the Seanchan or the Whitecloaks decided to conquer it, there would be little resistance.<br /><br />Lastly, about monarchs who have sworn fealty and maintained their authority... they are still puppets. Authority or not, when it comes down to it, they are still subject to whatever their lord or lady demands of them. The only difference is that a Roman Emperor wouldn't really care about the governings of Bohemia unless he wanted something or felt threatened by them. But all boiled down, when the lord and lady gives an order, the vassal must obey. But it's not like Rand will leave Ghealdan alone, with a Queen who would betray him to anybody out of fear and several enemy-nations surrounding it, when he's desperate to have every single nation united under him for the Last Battle. <br /><br />So, no, I think Rand really needs to know about what's going on in Ghealdan. <br /><br />Do you have ANY supporting evidence? There is just as much evidence to suggest they will have a change of heart, overthrow Sevanna, and become Rand's staunchest supporters as there is that they will be wiped out.<br /><br />Which is why I said this...<br /><br />But whatever happens with the Shaido, Rand is going to have to know about it, and any hostages, gai&#8217;shain, and/or algai&#8217;d&#8217;siswai are going to have to be settled, and that will, of course, have to be done by Rand.<br /><br />Maybe you didn't understand what I meant. The majority of the Shaido do not believe Rand is the true Car'a'carn. They are Aiel. They will not say, &quot;Well, looks like we're defeated, we'll just run back to Rand with our tails between our legs like some whipped puppy dogs.&quot; They are going to fight to the death, especially because they believe they are in the right. But I don't think every Shaido alive is going to be butchered - there will be survivors, since quite a few seem to believe that Sevanna is taking it too far, which is why they will have to be taken to Rand.<br /><br />If he does not know Egwene is Amyrlin, why would he go to Tar Valon? To confess to a strage Amyrlin Seat that he has been giving orders to Aes Sedai who swore fealty to his best friend? Or that he attacked a bunch of Aes Sedai to free a male channeler from them? This makes no sense. Get some facts and supporting evidence and present it in a clear manner for your next theory, please.<br /><br />Well, he has to face her sooner or later, doesn't he?<br /><br />And for that matter, you are forgetting that Perrin is going to be spending his time with or near Elayne and Aviendha, both who just happen to be bonded to Rand. If Suroth managed to clap a collar around Rand's throat and whisked him away all the way from Illian to Tar Valon in a gateway, Elayne and Aviendha would definitely know something was up. If Perrin wasn't with her, then Elayne would at least know where he was in order to Travel and let him know something's wrong with Rand and he's up past Caemlyn somewhere (and, oh yeah, Egwene is the Amyrlin of the rebel Aes Sedai). That's if those colors Perrin sees doesn't tell him first. I think that's a pretty good reason to go to Tar Valon, don't you?<br /><br />And, one more thing. Why would he be afraid of Egwene? Everything he did he did because he had to. He doesn't even know Elayne and he thinks that she will be lenient with him about the banner. He grew up with Egwene. And he wouldn't believe she would take her role as Amyrlin as seriously as that. And, furthermore, right now Egwene is only feeding on rumours when it comes to the Sisters swearing fealty to Rand. She has to find out the truth sooner or later. So, really, there isn't much reason for him to avoid her, and no reason at all for him to leave Rand in potential danger to continue avoiding her. <br /><br />Elayne seems a better ruler already than Morgase. <br /><br />Hah! No she isn't. <br /><br />If she were sitting on the Lion Throne right now, Elayne would be the best Queen there ever was, and a thousand times better than Morgase.<br /><br />The problem, though, is that Elayne isn't likely to get on that throne to be the best Queen. She has what it takes to be a Queen, but not what it takes to become one. Morgase had the full support of her people, and in a nation like Andor, that is more important than a strong will and a smart brain in order to ascend the throne. And at this moment, Elayne has nothing in her favor. Her army is the smallest in Andor, she's an Aes Sedai now that Aes Sedai are hated, she's the daughter of the Queen who ruined her people, she's encouraging the rumor that she's having some no-name guardsman's child, she's the best of friends with the Aiel, her closest ally happens to be her greatest threat... Yes, if she were on the throne she would be the best Queen. But the chances of her actually getting on that throne are pretty grim right now. If Elayne wasn't a main character, I would say there was no chance in hell she would ever be crowned Queen. <br /><br />He has no reason to look for either of them anywhere but Cairhien or maybe Illian for Rand.<br /><br />Which is why I said he will head off to Cairhien.<br /><br />At the moment Illian is under major threat of the Seanchan, and the inhabitants don't feel much loyalty towards Rand. So if Rand does go there, it won't be often, and it won't be for a long period of time. Perrin would know that. Also, keep in mind that Perrin is going to be having a group of Prophets and Aiel with him. The reason an entire army in Illian split apart from Rand was because they thought that he was behind the Shaido and Prophet's doings. They won't take too kindly to Perrin being there with Aiel and Prophets all around him, and Perrin won't want to wait there at all for Rand to come back. So Perrin's best bet would be to go to Cairhien. And what's on the way to Cairhien? Oh, right. Caemlyn.<br /><br />And they won't care who Perrin is unless he can let them know where Rand is, which he can't. And might not. If there was a 200,000 man army looking for my friend, I sure wouldn't tell them where he is.<br /><br />Not care? Perrin just happens to have the information Tenobia would want about Bashere and his relationship with Mazrim Taim. Perrin just happens to be Rand's best friend, and pissed off as the alliance might be when they find out Elayne led them on a wild goose chase, they'll be a lot angrier when they travel all the way across Andor and then find out Elayne led them on a wild goose chase. If Perrin is heading off to meet Rand, then the Borderlanders will naturally assume that following him is the best way they could meet up with Rand. And Faile just happens to be Tenobia's heir, after Faile's father. And the Borderlanders are marching in order to prove their allegiance to Rand; their problem is that they are right up against the Blight, they have the strongest armies in the mainlands, and they are unconditionally alleged to Rand, and yet he hasn't made any sort of effort to have any contact with them since the Great Hunt. They aren't going to kill him. So it's not like Perrin and Faile will feel the need to hide Rand from them. I mean, really. Not care?<br /><br />The Borderlanders have camped out in the north of Andor, and Elayne will let Rand know about them, if he doesn't find out another way, long before they get to Murandy.<br /><br />That is why I said Perrin will meet them long before they get to Murandy, when they are still somewhere in Andor. <br /><br />He is a lot closer to making friends with the Seanchan than with any Andorans, so he might be more likely to head southeast, having already learned that Rand has taken Illian. Otherwise, he'll have to ride through Andor to reach Cairhien, which he should learn just enough about to know it won't be the smartest idea. With an alliance with Seanchan forces, he will likely find it easier to cut through their territory to reach Rand.<br /><br />That is wrong on so many levels. <br /><br />He is about to make an alliance with the Seanchan, not be their friends. Also, there is no way in hell that the Seanchan will follow him all the way to Illian, for crying out loud, when they are on the verge of conquering it. An army of twenty thousand Dragonsworn, led into a nation they hope to get their claws on? I think not. They just want to kill the Aiel, which gives them leave to work alongside each other for that mission, alone.<br /><br />Second, he's going to have to cross Altara's borders in order to get to Illian. And the border of Altara and Illian are swarming with Seanchan. He won't pass through all of that just to get to Rand and hang around in a nation that's about to be massacred, when he can go to Cairhien, which is a nation that is fully Rand's. And right now, he's in northen Altara. If Rand was in Illian, it would be in the capital city, which is all the way back down to the Sea of Storms. He can be lucky to cross the border; he won't be lucky (or stupid enough) to go all the way down to the Sea of Storms, and surround himself from back, front, and sides with Seanchan.<br /><br />Third, that just doesn't make any sense at all. Perrin might not be likely to gain extremely strong connections with Andor, but he is likely to gain them with the Borderlands, and the Borderlands are absolutely nowhere near the Sea of Storms. And thus far Perrin has no connection whatsoever with the Borderlands, despite a wife who is third in line for the throne, so if he is to be strengthening relationships with anybody it will be them, because that will actually help Rand. Furthermore, for what you are suggesting to happen, Perrin would have to have a very strong connection with the Seanchan. Forming a shaky alliance with one army and fighting alongside them for one battle isn't enough to pass through their lands unharmed; and forming an alliance with one small army isn't enough for the whole freaking race to be your friend, too. <br /><br />Fourth, are you forgetting Mat? What use could all these alliances between Perrin and the Seanchan make, when Mat is the one that's going to be forming an alliance with Dragonsworn and Seanchan? If Perrin goes to Illian, and if he does form a dozen alliances with the Seanchan, what the hell good does that do Rand? Rand's already got somebody to bring him the Seanchan. He's got nobody to bring him the Borderlands. Going to Illian will do nothing for anybody. Going to Andor, however, and hooking up with the Borderlands, will do alot. <br /><br />Fifth, in response to this peice: Otherwise, he'll have to ride through Andor to reach Cairhien, which he should learn just enough about to know it won't be the smartest idea. Um...<br /><br />Perrin: Manetheren's borders had run almost to where Murandy now stood, and with luck, he could have been into Andor, where Rand has a firm grip, beforehaving to give up the deception [of raising Manetheren].<br /><br />Looks like Perrin was already stupid enough to consider Andor, then, huh? <br /><br />(QUOTE)I don't know what your point is here.<br />You're character assessment is completely off base.<br />And you seem to be assuming that people will get what they want out of a situation, instead of something completely different.<br />Perrin knows NONE of this!!! <br />He doesn't HAVE to do any of that stuff! <br /><br />Do you have ANY supporting evidence? <br />As far as your belief, you amy be right, but show some reason to assume that.<br /><br />PERRIN DOESN'T KNOW WHERE LOIAL IS!!!<br />Will Perrin go to Caemlyn or Tear? Make up your mind. <br />This makes no sense. Get some facts and supporting evidence and present it in a clear manner for your next theory, please. (/QUOTE)<br /><br />Well aren't you just one big ball of sunshine. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 07:16:13
subject: <b>Disregard the above post, I have no idea how that got there</b>
body:
Okay, a few things.<br /><br />If the Andoran nobles wouldn't let Aes Sedai cross the border with a large army under a great captain, why would they let a Dragonsworn leading a mess of foreign troops?  They are opposed to ANY interference by the Dragon Reborn in Andor, and while they can't fight the Aiel, Black Tower or Legion of the Dragon, they certainly won't have any problem telling Perrin to scram.  And Rand won't &quot;bless&quot; Perrin for aiding Elayne.  In the prologue to CoT, Bael is saying how easily he could destroy the Andorans beseiging Caemlyn, and Bashere tells him, &quot;Elayne won't like that...that means Rand al'Thor won't like it.&quot;  And the last Perrin saw of Rand was with Min hanging all over him, months after he saw him with Elayne.  He has no motive for helping Elayne based on Rand's affections.<br /><br />Regarding my character assessment of Elayne, you have two quotes about her appearance, and one from Birgitte in highly suspicious circumstances.  That quote was from tFoH when she, Elayne &amp; Nynaeve were all on a major b!tch fest, and ripping into each other with every word, and putting the worst possible interpretation on each other's actions.  The sisters in Salidar later said they should have brought Cerandin with them, so Elayne was right, and Brigitte's reprimand was unfounded in that instance. <br />My use of the word pleasant was taken right from Perrin's head in tPoD.  That's what HE thinks about her.<br /><br />As far as Morgase being a better Queen, she had the support of the nobles, as Elayne says in CoT.  There is no mention of her having the people's support, except for a few who would support the queen no matter what she did.  And if she DID have the people's support she p!ssed it away pretty good, since most of the city was rioting against her in EotW, and her supporters had to travel in groups, and hang out together for safety.<br />Elayne is actively working on securing the people's support by her campaign trail visits, a strategy used in elections in the USA in modern times.  There is no evidence that Morgase did any of that one way or another.  And in any sort of crisis situation, Elayne follows Gareth Bryne's teaching, and Lini's sayings more than her mothers, unless Thom backed her up.  The only act we know of Morgase's was when she allowed Murandians to freely raid her people, because the Amyrlin said so.  Elayne has already said she will not rule Andor as a White Tower puppet.  <br /><br />As best as I can make out from your responses, Perrin will go to Caemlyn, not for any reason Perrin would have, but because the story will be helped by him being there.  I think it is far more likely Rand will come to Perrin, rather than the other way around.  Or at least the three ta'veren will come together somewhere in northern Altara/Murandy, in a Seanchan related plot twist.<br /><br />Finally, would you please explain the italicized line heading off the theory?  Why is it in italics like that, and what is with the &quot;Duh&quot; at the end?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 12:01:28
subject: <b>Umm....</b>
body:
Going into Andor will still be very problematic for Perrin and Elayne - when is anything not in the Wheel of Time? - but it will be less problematic than for him to go to Illian. Keep in mind that at this point Elayne has granted permission to 200 000 Borderlanders to pass through Andor, and the Black Tower is also currently on Andoran territory. If Elayne figured she could get away with those, then I doubt she'll throw a hissy fit over the less-than-thirtee-thousand Dragonsworn with Perrin. The Ghealdan Lancers and Mayener Winged Guards can hardly be considered Dragonsworn, but if you meant them, too, then either way, with them included, the numbers will never reach more than 15 000, probably less since they will be fighting Aiel, and the thirteen-some thousand followers of the Prophet are inexperienced vagabonds. <br /><br />Also, keep in mind that there are about seventy thousand non-Aiel gai'shain with Sevanna, who will undoubtedly assist Perrin in the battle. That's seventy thousand un-alleged, non-Dragonsworn people who Elayne can recruit (or at the very least one third of that number, considering there will be losses in the battle, plus some who will break away, etc). If Elayne is desperate enough to be recruiting Hunters for the Horn (of which Birgitte said had no allegiance to Andor, would do anything for glory, and at the slightest rumour of the Horn they'll run off), then these former gai'shain will be of major use to her. And also with Sevanna are at least three or four hundred women who can channel, and if I'm not mistaken, the majority of these Wise Ones seem to be the ones who believe Sevanna is going too far. And right now, Elayne's palace is packed with women who can channel. Honestly, I still don't know what she's trying to do with all of them, but a few more hundred Wise Ones could settle there for a bit before zipping on over to Rand. <br /><br />As for aiding Elayne... Elayne doesn't want it to come to civil war, that's why she wouldn't appreciate the Andorans being wiped out. She just wants to intimidate the others, let them know that she can wipe them out if she chose, but having the smallest army in Andor, that's never going to happen. Her army contains, at the very most, fifteen thousand soldiers, while the other two factions in Andor have about thirty thousand each. Granted, Elayne has about a hundred women who can channel, but I doubt she would use them as a threat, since that would be a huge setback to women who can channel, as well as to Egwene. So Elayne is going to need at least twenty thousand more soldiers if she wants to have the largest army, or about sixty thousand if her plan is to show she can wipe out both armies at once (or, of course, if Arathelle's and Arymilla's forces combine). But at the very least, she needs twenty thousand soldiers. Perrin can supply her that, and maybe more. <br /><br />As for Elayne's character assessment... sweet Lord in Heaven, I can't believe it turned out to be such an explosion. All I wanted to say was that Perrin really didn't know her at all. Anyway. Yes, I am well aware that Birgitte's quote was used when Elayne was trying to kidnap Cerandin. But it was the most direct quote I could find. But the point I was trying to make is that Elayne's character goes far deeper than just &quot;a bit taken with herself&quot; and &quot;seems pleasant.&quot; When I said that she was <b>far from pleasant, and way, way, way more than just a bit taken with herself.</b> I sort of just meant the same thing. Kind of like saying something is dark and black. Just that she was a brat and not pleasant because of it. Anyway, I do like Elayne (sometimes) but the majority of the time she is a brat, and the only reason you love her anyway is because you know her inner-workings, which Perrin does not know.<br /><br />And about Morgase... she did have the support of her people as well as the nobles. Everybody loved Morgase, up till the whole issue with Rand came out. And I know that right now she is the least dignified person there is. I agree with you there. I'm not saying that she will be Queen again and everybody will love her and all of that. What I am saying is that she was still a Queen for practically twenty years, and she is still Elayne's mother. Morgase raised Elayne to be a Queen thinking that she had all the time in the world to make sure Elayne got it right. There is still much that Elayne doesn't know that her mother couldn't have taught her. She's only twenty years old, after all, and Morgase was in the prime of her life with a bloom of health. Elayne is the youngest of the contestors for the throne, and she's been away from Andor for a couple years, and only got back a month or two ago. Just having your mother around is pyschological support enough, but having Morgase coaching her about the rest of the knowledge Elayne didn't have time to learn would give her a serious leg-up. <br /><br />And finally, about the <b>Note: Perrin and co. will go to Caemlyn after the Shaido are dealt with. Duh.</b> part. Remember that I said that the Pattern is going to push Perrin gradually towards Caemlyn, not that he would actually choose to go there. Well, I wanted to make sure everybody understood that Perrin will <b>not</b> be going to Andor, picking up the Borderland armies, and then swinging back down to Altara to free his wife. Or that he would just ditch Faile and the Shaido altogether. He would clean up the Shaido, do whatever else he needed to do in the south, and then move up north for good (or for a very long time anyway). I just wanted to make sure that was clear. And as for the <b>Duh</b>... well, it seemed pretty obvious to me that it would all happen once he finished off matters with Faile and the Shaido, but I figured I might as well say it for clarification.


created: 2005-09-17 05:40:11
subject: <b>A bit added to the mix of Perrin and the Borderland</b>
body:
After having fun listening to all the bickering, I decide to jump in the melee. This time concerning Tenobia and Saldea.<br />Why do everyone always intend to off Tenobia? Just so Perrin can inherit Saldea? I remind all of you that it's not unreasonable to consider her &quot;the hawk&quot;. Considering for points:<br />1. Prickly, short temper, just like Faile.<br />2. Still single, with high standard for the groom-to-be. The poetry part probably doesnt cut with Perrin, but her other requirements fit him to the P.<br />3. Cat fights between Faile and the poor girl from Mayene was good. Now imagine cat fights between two cousins with short-temper like Faile and Tenobia... I'm cackled with glee in anticipation here.<br />4. Tenobia and Faile are both not beautiful, with strong and bold nose.<br />The above points maybe not enough for proof but from the moment Tenobia appeared I thought to myself: Here comes the hawk.<br />So there, thats my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Does 'Daughter of the Nine Moons' mean anything to you?<br /><br />Yes. It means your daughter has nine asses.<br />     -Uncle Jeff<br /><br />Uh, you mean four-and-a-half, right? Or did you mean a nice pair?<br />     -me in a confused state of mind</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-21 09:53:25
subject: <b>I tend to support this idea...</b>
body:
Excuse my noobnes... only been reading books few months and only read series twice. First off Connoli, how IS the kidnapping of Ceradin correct? Just because Aes Sedai say that she should have does not make it so. Later on we see repercussions for not doing this when Luca is awarded the right to keep horses by Suroth, thus helping hide Mat and co. within the show better. Sorry, pet peeve there... I HATE Aes Sedai with a passion, mainly due to their belief in them always being naturally in charge. I don't really consider Elayne &quot;taken&quot; with herself however. That shows a belief that she is better then anyone else by herself. I rarely see a concious feeling of this. I tend to think that she naturally &quot;takes charge&quot; because she was raised to be a queen. I also strongly dislike her &quot;Aes Sedai-ness&quot; aka implacable belief that the tower exceeds all. Points of this is her belief that tower law supercedes all other laws, when she tries forcing the foxhead off of Mat with &quot;Tower law&quot; and then negotiating for Andor as an Aes Sedai. Another pet peeve sorry, I just hate the idea that Aes Sedai can negotiate without permission from a central figurehead or if none exist, than a majority of other great houses. Anyway, back to the theory. The idea of Perrin's army as totally foreign to Andor is incorrect, at least in Elayne/Andor's eyes. How come Perrin could not delegate the Two Rivers men(who are technically &quot;Andoran&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> to help Elayne? Also, I think that it is more likely that he will head for Cairhien. Like someone said, he has no idea as to the situation of Andor. Why not head where ya last saw the guy? Distance in this is fairly equal. To the poster of this theory: However, I don't see how Rand would be inside the tower, it will happen in aMoL, yes, but this theory is pre KoD I think. Why assume that he will be in the tower to? Also, recall that Perrin would NOT go to the tower in all likelihood. As far as he knows Elaida is Amyriln not Egwene. So your idea of him trusting Egwene is moot since he does not know she holds that office with the rebels. You stated a pure certainty with the whole &quot;he has to face her eventually&quot; then simply speculated as to how without evidence. I find it likely that Rand will go to Caemlyn to check on Elayne while Perrin is there. They meet up etc etc. But thats just speculation to. I did overall like this theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 09:21:18
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I think it's quite plausible that Taim is his own man. I have elsewhere theorised about the possibility of him believing himself to be the Dragon Reborn or at least to be able to become the Dragon once more by killing Rand. He behaves in a way which makes me suspect this. I could probably give you a few examples of what I mean but for now this quote will have to do: <br /><br />&quot;I might have been the one. How could I be sure otherwise? I can channel; I'm strong. What said I was not the Dragon Reborn? All I had to do was fulfil just one of the Prophecies.&quot; &quot;Like managing to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount?&quot; Rand said coldly. &quot;That was the first Prophecy to be met.&quot;<br />Taim's mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile; it never touched his eyes. &quot;Victors write history. Had I taken<br />the Stone of Tear, history would have shown I was born on Dragonmount, of a woman never touched by a man, and<br />the heavens opened up in radiance to herald my coming. The sort of thing they say about you, now.&quot;<br /> <br />There are other signs as well but I can't be bothered to look them up again at the moment, but this shows clearly that he believes in re-writing history.<br />This might mean that he is in fact going crazy. Rand actually wondered about it when they first met. But it might also mean that he is just a very ambitious man.<br />I'm certainly not excluding the possibility of him being a Darkfriend, but I definitely think there are other avenues to explore as well and Taim as a man wanting to make his mark on history in the grandest possible way is not an unreasonable though, at least not in my humble opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 09:55:41
subject: <b>Regarding slowing...</b>
body:
It starts at the same age for every woman.  Any female channeler slows around age 19 or 20 (Setalle Anan says that Elayne is too young to have slowed, and she's 18 going on 19, meanwhile most people mistake Nynaeve for that age - Tylin guessed she was 20, and Thom said she should be flirting with the boys not being a Wisdom, and she was 24 then, which is practically a spinster in a pre-industrial farming community).  The stronger a channeler is, the slower she ages.  Thus Morgase, at age 43, looks too young to have an 18 year old daughter (according to Pedron Niall).  Since no one has carped about Elayne's youth in relation to her pregnancy, we have to assume Morgase looks to be in her early 30's.  <br />It doesn't matter how young Morgase went to the Tower (I believe tFoH establishes her as 16), if she started channeling before 20, she slowed then.  Women like Sharina - who had to be taught - never slowed, but anyone born with the spark, or who tests positive in her teens starts to slow at the same age.<br /><br />With so much else, it might be different for men - since they start channeling later on the average, they might also start slowing later, or age differently than women do.  Also bear in mind ordinary women tend to have longer natural lifespans than men, so male channelers might or might not live as many centuries, or might live a lot longer.  There is no way to guess Taim's age from slowing info, but I believe you're right in the gist of your comments in point one.  I gotta go read the rest now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 11:41:20
subject: <b>Regarding slowing...and other stuff...</b>
body:
It <i>is</i> different for men. In and interview RJ said that a man may not manifest the spark until he is as old as 30. To reinforce this point, he also put in the updated version of NS - it's in a Moiraine POV somewhere near the beginning. I think this is RJ addressing the inconsistency he created when he described Taim as looking 35 and channeling for a good 10 years. RJ wanted Taim to be older and harder than Rand, but not necessarily a long-time channeler that requires protection from the taint. I believe that Taim probably started channeling in his late 20s to about 30, has been channeling for 10 years and now looks about 35. <br /><br /><br />About the rest of the theory:<br /><br />Not bad, generally a good description of Taim's life. At times you accept things as facts that we don't really know. An example:<br /><br /><blockquote><b>Clearly Taim had the Black Ajah to thank for his escape while being escorted by soldiers and Aes Sedai back to Tar Valon for his gentling, and this was a plot planned out carefully some time in advance. However, they just left Taim to fend for himself in the middle of nowhere, despite his apparent importance. </b></blockquote><br /><br />I think it is far from clear - though it is likely. I disagree that if he were freed by the BA that they left him to fend for himself - that makes very little sense.<br /><br />Also, you seem to accept that Taim must have had training. I don't think this is necessarily so. He had 10 years to figure things out before he started rebelling in Saldea. Though, I do believe that it is likely that Taim did receive some training later - not likely Asmodean, but maybe Rahvin, Ishamael, Demandred, or Osan'gar. However, it seems that forsaken don't like rivals - so it's somewhat surprising that they would train anyone. Only Osan'gar has had any inclination to help other channelers (among the guys anyway) - he helped Flinn out with healing. This of course is excepting Asmodean and his forced training of Rand.<br /><br />I think that RJ has set up Taim as an example of a 'converted' DF. It seem rather likely that the BA broke him out and took him someplace where he could be converted via 13 channelers and 13 Myddraal. Actually I think we'll finally get a POV from him in KOD that will this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 12:48:20
subject: <b>Thank you!!!</b>
body:
I have often wanted to write something along these lines, since to me, Mazrim Taim is the most overdiscussed character in WoT.  Maybe he will end up as a Darkfriend, it certainly wouldn't be a surprise, but I think that he isn't.  And he most certainly is not Demandred/Moridin in disguise, or any of the forsaken.  Great theory!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 13:34:37
subject: <b>I think you make some false assumtions.</b>
body:
1. Taim's age. You say that he must have begun channeling by 20, yet RJ has said that men begin channeling <i>much</i> later than women. Women can begin from 12-20, but if the spark hasn't come by then it probably won't. Men though, he said usually start closer to 16-28. <br /><br />2. The slowing. Why would it take Taim five years or less to begin slowing? Most women in the Tower take closer to 10 or fifteen years to do so. The strength argument is a nice idea, the fact that he's at least twice as strong as most women in the Tower, so slowed twice as soon, yet your main point was that Taim was able to hide out by not channeling much and avoiding AS notice. You don't get the taint <b>or</b> the slowing without actively channeling.<br /><br />3. BA help in his escape. <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Clearly Taim had the Black Ajah to thank for his escape while being escorted by soldiers and Aes Sedai back to Tar Valon for his gentling...</b></font><br /><br />That is from your theory. What is clear about Taim's escape? All we know is that there was supposedly a BA plan to kidnapp/release him and that two sisters died in his escape. Nothing about that says that BA had to help him. Think Dumai's Wells. No one helped Rand escape, yet he killed and stilled sisters while escaping. He killed warders while escaping. Do you think that Taim is any less dangerous than Rand?<br /><br />4. Liandrin helped him escape.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>...Liandrin&#8217;s crew, who were the ones to free Taim.</b></font><br /><br />That's also from your theory. What makes you think that Liandrin helped Taim escape? Aside from what Joiya told the girls, there's nothing to support that idea. There is much to stand against it though. Liandrin and her cronies were fleeing Tear after being routed from the Stone, and seemingly made no stops between there and Tanchico. There simply wasn't time for them to go from Tear to Saldaea (freeing Taim) to Tanchico in the time it took Elayne and Nynaeve to find them in that city. If they went to free Taim they would have had to Travel overland, or by river-boat through Tar Valon, a place none of them could safely go. Overland would add weeks to their journey and not have them in the West in time for the wondergirls to find them.<br /><br />Aside from those, the theory's OK... I'm not going to vote on it yet, I need to see your response to this post... then I'll vote.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 13:59:29
subject: <b>Some comments ...</b>
body:
This is an excellent summary.  And while I agree it's not 100% certain that Taim is a Darkfriend, I think he is.<br /><br />There are two key, but subtle, pieces of evidence that make me think so (aside from the ones that most people cite &#8211; i.e. his &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; comment, his knowledge of many different saidin weaves, his knowledge of the Old Tongue, etc):<br /><br />1. The 4 DF Asha'man obeyed Taim's order to kill Rand.<br /><br />It's clear that, prior to when Rand inadvertently revealed his intention to clense saidin, the order from the Dark One was that Rand was not to be killed.  This information would have been disseminated to all DFs, especially those close to Rand who might be in a position to kill him &#8211; i.e. the 4 DF Asha'man.<br /><br />Therefore, for the 4 DF Asha'man to obey an order to kill Rand, the order would have had to come from a DF superior.  Otherwise, the Asha'man would risk &#8230; unpleasant &#8230; punishment for disobeying the DO's order, something I don't think they would have dared.<br /><br />Since they obeyed Taim, Taim must be a DF superior.<br /><br />2. When, later, Demandred also ordered the 4 DF Asha'man to kill Rand, he stated that they should not let themselves be discovered again, even by Taim.<br /><br />The fact that Demandred wanted to keep his order secret at all is evidence that he gave it prior to the Coffee Hour scene (in WH Ch.13), when Moridin lifted the prohibition on killing Rand.  At the time, he did not want his order discovered by anyone who could inform Moridin that he was disobeying the DO's orders.<br /><br />The fact that he wanted to keep his order secret from Taim specifically shows his concern that Taim could inform Moridin that he disobeyed the DO's order.  Demandred would only have thought this if he knew Taim was a Darkfriend.  Also, the fact the Demandred singled out Taim specifically indicates that he thought the Asha'man might inform Taim about his order.  But, if Taim wasn't a DF, there would be no reason for the Asha'man to report Demandred's order to him.  Quite the contrary &#8211; the Asha'man would have kept Demandred's order secret from any non-DFs &#8211; i.e. those who might be in a position to warn Rand. <br /><br />As for when Taim became a DF, I think it was after he was freed, but before his arrival in Caemlyn.  Some think he might have been involuntarily turned to the Shadow at this time, but I tend to think it was voluntary.<br /><br />But, I'm not so sure Taim was freed by the Black Ajah.  Joiya's comments seem to indicate he was.  But, Joiya wasn't stilled at the time she made those comments, and therefore was still bound by whatever oaths she took when becoming BA, one of which was surely not to reveal any active BA plots.  Therefore, I think Taim's followers actually freed him (coincidentally making it appear as if Joiya was telling the truth), and he was then recruited to the Shadow (by Demandred, IMO) shortly thereafter (probably after Rand announced his amnesty for male channelers, which was a number of weeks after Taim was freed).  That would explain why Taim didn't seem to be controlled by anyone from the Shadow immediately after he escaped.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-06 15:58:35
subject: <b>sounds good</b>
body:
you made some very good points in there that seem to make perfect sense to me. good theory.<br /><br />i just wanted to point out that women are stilled, men are gentled. you seemed a little confused on that point, saying logain was stilled, the aes sedai wanted to still taim.


created: 2005-07-07 11:02:41
subject: <b>replies to Phelix and Shishka</b>
body:
&quot;1. Taim's age. You say that he must have begun channeling by 20, yet RJ has said that men begin channeling much later than women. Women can begin from 12-20, but if the spark hasn't come by then it probably won't. Men though, he said usually start closer to 16-28. <br /><br />2. The slowing. Why would it take Taim five years or less to begin slowing? Most women in the Tower take closer to 10 or fifteen years to do so. The strength argument is a nice idea, the fact that he's at least twice as strong as most women in the Tower, so slowed twice as soon, yet your main point was that Taim was able to hide out by not channeling much and avoiding AS notice. You don't get the taint or the slowing without actively channeling.&quot;<br /><br />My point is that he avoided the taint by limiting his channeling.  However, you don't have to continually channel to slow.  Once you channel enough to slow, you can stop channeling but the slowing will still happen.<br /><br /><br />&quot;3. BA help in his escape. <br /><br />Clearly Taim had the Black Ajah to thank for his escape while being escorted by soldiers and Aes Sedai back to Tar Valon for his gentling...<br /><br />That is from your theory. What is clear about Taim's escape? All we know is that there was supposedly a BA plan to kidnapp/release him and that two sisters died in his escape. Nothing about that says that BA had to help him. Think Dumai's Wells. No one helped Rand escape, yet he killed and stilled sisters while escaping. He killed warders while escaping. Do you think that Taim is any less dangerous than Rand?<br /><br />4. Liandrin helped him escape.<br /><br />...Liandrin&#8217;s crew, who were the ones to free Taim.<br /><br />That's also from your theory. What makes you think that Liandrin helped Taim escape? Aside from what Joiya told the girls, there's nothing to support that idea. There is much to stand against it though. Liandrin and her cronies were fleeing Tear after being routed from the Stone, and seemingly made no stops between there and Tanchico. There simply wasn't time for them to go from Tear to Saldaea (freeing Taim) to Tanchico in the time it took Elayne and Nynaeve to find them in that city. If they went to free Taim they would have had to Travel overland, or by river-boat through Tar Valon, a place none of them could safely go. Overland would add weeks to their journey and not have them in the West in time for the wondergirls to find them.&quot;<br /><br />The fact that 2 Aes Sedai died in the escape makes me think it was the Black Ajah who pulled it off.  Not too many non-channelers can kill Aes Sedai.  The note to Siuan about Taim's escape states that he was &quot;taken in the night&quot; which implies a small attack force.  A small attack force against at least 6 Aes Sedai?  There had to be channelers involved.  Unless you think they were male channelers, or forsaken, or non-darkfriend Aes Sedai, it had to be Black Ajah, and since Liandrin's crew knew about it, it was likely some of them.<br /><br />And someone had the time to find them.  Why not someone that can travel quickly using the Ways?  Besides, according to the Chronology of the Wheel of Time, it took Elayne and Nynaeve a month to get to Tanchico from the time Rand captured the Stone, which was after Liandrin's crew departed there.  <br /><br />Not sure how you can say no one helped Rand escape at Dumai's Wells.  The sisters were under attack and had to tie off their shields rather than maintaining them.  If they maintained the shields, he wouldn't have escaped, or else he would have done so sometime earlier during his ten days of captivity.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;1. The 4 DF Asha'man obeyed Taim's order to kill Rand.<br /><br />It's clear that, prior to when Rand inadvertently revealed his intention to clense saidin, the order from the Dark One was that Rand was not to be killed. This information would have been disseminated to all DFs, especially those close to Rand who might be in a position to kill him &#8211; i.e. the 4 DF Asha'man.<br /><br />Therefore, for the 4 DF Asha'man to obey an order to kill Rand, the order would have had to come from a DF superior. Otherwise, the Asha'man would risk &#8230; unpleasant &#8230; punishment for disobeying the DO's order, something I don't think they would have dared.<br /><br />Since they obeyed Taim, Taim must be a DF superior.<br /><br />2. When, later, Demandred also ordered the 4 DF Asha'man to kill Rand, he stated that they should not let themselves be discovered again, even by Taim.<br /><br />The fact that Demandred wanted to keep his order secret at all is evidence that he gave it prior to the Coffee Hour scene (in WH Ch.13), when Moridin lifted the prohibition on killing Rand. At the time, he did not want his order discovered by anyone who could inform Moridin that he was disobeying the DO's orders.<br /><br />The fact that he wanted to keep his order secret from Taim specifically shows his concern that Taim could inform Moridin that he disobeyed the DO's order. Demandred would only have thought this if he knew Taim was a Darkfriend. Also, the fact the Demandred singled out Taim specifically indicates that he thought the Asha'man might inform Taim about his order. But, if Taim wasn't a DF, there would be no reason for the Asha'man to report Demandred's order to him. Quite the contrary &#8211; the Asha'man would have kept Demandred's order secret from any non-DFs &#8211; i.e. those who might be in a position to warn Rand. <br /><br />As for when Taim became a DF, I think it was after he was freed, but before his arrival in Caemlyn. Some think he might have been involuntarily turned to the Shadow at this time, but I tend to think it was voluntary.&quot;<br /><br />I agree that this quote indicates strongly that Taim may be a darkfriend.  However, while Demandred may fear discovery of his plans to kill Rand by Taim, it also may be that he doesn't want them to be caught by Taim to be questioned so that Taim can discover they are darkfriends.  Also, it may be that they just assumed Taim was a darkfriend, if they were ordered by another superior to follow his orders.  Not all darkfriends know who else they are working with is a darkfriend.  Since they didn't know about Dashiva for example, it is possible that when Dashiva did want to give them orders, he impersonated Taim, given the foursome the impression he is a darkfriend.<br /><br />&quot;But, I'm not so sure Taim was freed by the Black Ajah. Joiya's comments seem to indicate he was. But, Joiya wasn't stilled at the time she made those comments, and therefore was still bound by whatever oaths she took when becoming BA, one of which was surely not to reveal any active BA plots. Therefore, I think Taim's followers actually freed him (coincidentally making it appear as if Joiya was telling the truth), and he was then recruited to the Shadow (by Demandred, IMO) shortly thereafter (probably after Rand announced his amnesty for male channelers, which was a number of weeks after Taim was freed). That would explain why Taim didn't seem to be controlled by anyone from the Shadow immediately after he escaped.&quot;<br /><br />And meanwhile, in the same conversation, Joiya mentioned the danger to Rand in Tanchico which turned out to be real, and the plot to free Taim.  Why assume that she was telling the truth about one, which was a true darkfriend plot, and make up the other one?


created: 2005-07-07 12:09:49
subject: <b>Regarding Joiya ...</b>
body:
Joiya only mentioned the supposed plot about Taim - she said nothing about Tanchico.  It was Amico who mentioned the danger in Tanchico (fyi ... the two were questioned separately, so did not know what the other revealed).  <br /><br />But, unlike Joiya, Amico was stilled and therefore no longer bound by the BA oaths (just like Suian was no longer bound by the 3 Oaths after she was stilled).  So, there IS much more reason to believe Amico than Joiya.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-09 17:13:21
subject: <b>Remarks on a few snippets.</b>
body:
1) &quot;Logain, who appears short of his middle years, which is about Taim's age, and therefore may have been channeling as long as him shows no signs of the Taint&quot;<br /><br />According to the ACoS glossary, Logain is only 28, and in LoC Chapter 53 he claims that he learned to channel six years earlier.  Taking into account the fact that he was cut off from the source for nearly a year, we can assume that as of CoT he's been channeling for a total of maybe 5.5 years.  Even going that long without the madness is pretty impressive, but it's a lot more believable than Taim's alleged 15.<br /><br />2) &quot;Since Rand (though with LTT's help for some weaves) and Logain learned some weaves on their own, and saidar wilders also learn on their own, it is not beyond reason to assume that Taim could do the same.&quot;<br /><br />Compulsion is a common ability among Wilders, and Nynaeve used balefire in TDR without even knowing what it was, but how does a lone channeler from the sticks become so good at testing?  I just don't buy that he stumbled on that through trial and error--especially since his method is so similar to the AoL method described in the Guide.<br />Also, Wilders don't seem to learn the temperature ability on their own, probably because it's not actually a trick of the Power.  The Supergirls, who picked up all kinds of stuff on their own, still had to be taught to do it by Siuan.  So how does Taim magically attain it?  Did he politely ask one of the Red Sisters guarding him to teach it to him?<br /><br />3) &quot;At that time, his being a False Dragon wasn't just a part of some chaos plot by the Dark One.&quot;<br /><br />On what evidence do you base this?  Ishamael had been free for over a decade by this point, and had been laying all kind of plans.<br /><br />4) &quot;However, they just left Taim to fend for himself in the middle of nowhere, despite his apparent importance. They would not have left him if he were an important Darkfriend, yet he had to find his own way.&quot;<br /><br />Some people argue that Taim's 'job' during this period was to lure Bashere away from the Blight Border and into the political mess at the center of the continent.  If this were the case, then it was important that Bashere always felt that he was on the verge of catching Taim, so he would keep going a little further south, and then a little further, until suddenly he's stuck down in Andor.  Taim wouldn't even have to be 'fending for himself' for this to work.  He could've caused chaos in some village, Traveled to the Shayol Ghul Hilton, spent a few days goofing off, and then Traveled to some other village to repeat the process.<br /><br />5) &quot;It is barely plausible that Taim was told to go to Caemlyn and wait for Rand to show up though his arrival there was not part of any known Shadow plot--the Forsaken were planning on dealing with Rand in Illian.&quot;<br /><br />Only four of the Forsaken were planning to deal with Rand in Illian.  The others (except Moghedien) were unaware of this and had plans of their own.  Also, Taim didn't show his face in Caemlyn until a few days after Rand, so he wasn't necessarily waiting for him there.  He might have changed destinations after hearing that Rand had taken the city.<br /><br />6) &quot;So if Taim had some ulterior motive for joining Rand, he had no way of knowing in advance how he would be in position to implement it. That works if Taim is just flying by the seat of his pants, but not if he is working some intricate plot for the Shadow.&quot;<br /><br />There were no guarantees of Taim's success in this venture, but the possible benefits (a whole school of saidin channelers sanctioned by Rand but secretly controlled by the Shadow) were worth risking one minion's life, even when that minion was as useful as Taim.  Also, the line that you yourself quote later on shows that Rand was far more interested in winning the Last Battle than in punishing any crimes that Taim may have committed, and I think the amnesty announcement made that clear to Taim and to anyone else who might have been handling him.<br /><br />7) &quot;It's unlikely that Demandred would have sent it, even as a trick for Rand to gain Taim's trust.&quot;<br /><br />Why not?  Demandred is a gambler, and if the event were properly staged, there would be minimal risk to Rand.<br /><br />8 ) &quot;If Taim was a Darkfriend, why would he let his main rival Logain rise and gain influence that threatens his own within the Tower without taking drastic measures?&quot;<br /><br />Light or Dark, Taim is a ruthless, power-hungry killer, so if he thought he could kill Logain (and get away with it), he definitely would.  The trouble is, Logain appears to have grown too popular too quickly for Taim to oppose him openly.  I think Taim knows that he's on thin ice, and that one more suspicious incident might bring Rand down on his head.  Therefore, it's smarter for him to keep Logain in check until he can kind a sneakier way of getting rid of him.<br /><br />9) &quot;In an interview, RJ stated that Taim tracked down Rand at Dumai's Wells because of his paranoia, not due to inside knowledge of the forsaken planning the kidnapping. If he were working with the forsaken, then he would have helped them rather than taking his own initiative to rescue Rand.&quot;<br /><br />Regardless of whether Rand's kidnapping was meant to succeed (I don't think it was, but we'll leave that point aside) the Forsaken who planned the kidnapping most certainly did not plan on Galina being overtaken and besieged by an army of Shaido at some dinky waterhole.  That was entirely Sammael's doing.  What Jordan said about Taim was that Taim heard about Rand's disappearance and the sudden movement of a butt-load of Shaido and put two and two together.  If Taim were a darkfriend working for Demandred, then he would set off looking for Rand to prevent Sevanna from spoiling his patron's plot and doing the-Light-knows-what with Rand.<br /><br />10) &quot;The Shadow's M.O. is generally to get someone in power as second in command to major institutions, like The White Tower and the Seanchan&quot;<br /><br />Um, Taim _is_ the second-in-command.  Rand is the First Asha'man and Taim is his Number Two.<br /><br />11) &quot;Taim knew about Rand's wishes to cleanse saidin since early in LOC when they met for the first time. Yet nothing happens to Rand, at least at Taim's hands. In fact, Taim rescues Rand from the Shadow.&quot;<br /><br />Why should Taim be freaked out that Rand, a male channeler, wanted to cleanse saidin?  Every male channeler wishes that such a thing could be done.  The important thing is whether Rand had a way to do it, and until TPoD/WH, no one working for the Shadow believed that Rand had a concrete plan or sufficient means for doing something that monumental.  It was only when Cyndane revealed that Rand had the Choedan Kal that they really started freaking out.<br /><br />12) &quot;All of a sudden, there is urgency by the Shadow, though there is no sudden change in Rand's ability to cleanse Saidin.&quot;<br /><br />Reread the passages in question.  In LoC, Rand says that he wants to do it.  In TPoD, he accidentally blurts out that he thinks he knows how.  That's a huge difference.  Furthermore, where in the books does it say that Rand's determination to cleanse the Taint was even the direct cause of the Fab Four's attack?  They were already trying to kill him back in Illian, and at least some of those attempts were probably planned before he made his remarks about saidin.<br /><br />13) &quot;He is attacked within two weeks, despite there being no absolute lifting of the order to not kill Rand by Moridin at the time.&quot;<br /><br />You should go read the WOTFAQ section on the Fab Four's attack.  There are myriad perspectives on who ordered what when, who was hiding what from whom, and whether the attackers were even meant to succeed.<br />


created: 2005-07-10 14:46:59
subject: <b>replies to snippets</b>
body:
&quot;1.According to the ACoS glossary, Logain is only 28, and in LoC Chapter 53 he claims that he learned to channel six years earlier. Taking into account the fact that he was cut off from the source for nearly a year, we can assume that as of CoT he's been channeling for a total of maybe 5.5 years. Even going that long without the madness is pretty impressive, but it's a lot more believable than Taim's alleged 15.&quot;<br /><br />It may be more believable, but there are instances from the Breaking of the World that prove men lasted a lot longer than 15 years - just because of the fact that the Breaking lasted so long.<br /><br />&quot;2.Compulsion is a common ability among Wilders, and Nynaeve used balefire in TDR without even knowing what it was, but how does a lone channeler from the sticks become so good at testing? I just don't buy that he stumbled on that through trial and error--especially since his method is so similar to the AoL method described in the Guide.  Also, Wilders don't seem to learn the temperature ability on their own, probably because it's not actually a trick of the Power. The Supergirls, who picked up all kinds of stuff on their own, still had to be taught to do it by Siuan. So how does Taim magically attain it? Did he politely ask one of the Red Sisters guarding him to teach it to him?&quot;<br /><br />His ability to learn has nothing to do with where he comes from, and besides Rand and Nynaeve are both from the &quot;sticks&quot; and they learned a lot on their own.  Those 2 showed nice abilities to learn on their own within 2 years of acquiring the ability to channel.  And learning ability is proportionate to channeling ability, and Taim's is much greater than Nynaeve's and matches or exceeds Rands, and he had years more of experience.  As for the temperature control trick, I don't know how he learned it but there are many possibilities.  I find it interesting that Rand had to be taught it by Taim, despite the fact that he had a forsaken teacher, and an AOL channeler in his brain.<br /><br />&quot;3.On what evidence do you base this? Ishamael had been free for over a decade by this point, and had been laying all kind of plans.&quot;<br /><br />Taim was a &quot;true&quot; false dragon, since he was knocked from his horse during the visions of Rand and Ba'alzamon.  He was not faking being a false dragon.  Seems to me that indicates he wasn't just pulling off a darkfriend plot.<br /><br /><br />&quot;4.Some people argue that Taim's 'job' during this period was to lure Bashere away from the Blight Border and into the <br />political mess at the center of the continent. If this were the case, then it was important that Bashere always felt that he was on the verge of catching Taim, so he would keep going a little further south, and then a little further, until suddenly he's stuck down in Andor. Taim wouldn't even have to be 'fending for himself' for this to work. He could've caused chaos in some village, Traveled to the Shayol Ghul Hilton, spent a few days goofing off, and then Traveled to some other village to repeat the process.&quot;<br /><br />Luring Bashere away from Saldaea was supposed to be a Chaos plot?  What did it accomplish then?  Aside from leaving Rand with a huge army of supporters that is.<br /><br />&quot;5.Only four of the Forsaken were planning to deal with Rand in Illian. The others (except Moghedien) were unaware of this and had plans of their own. Also, Taim didn't show his face in Caemlyn until a few days after Rand, so he wasn't necessarily waiting for him there. He might have changed destinations after hearing that Rand had taken the city.&quot;<br /><br />I believe that he did change destinations, when hearing of Rand's amnesty.<br /><br />&quot;6.There were no guarantees of Taim's success in this venture, but the possible benefits (a whole school of saidin channelers sanctioned by Rand but secretly controlled by the Shadow) were worth risking one minion's life, even when that minion was as useful as Taim. Also, the line that you yourself quote later on shows that Rand was far more interested in winning the Last Battle than in punishing any crimes that Taim may have committed, and I think the amnesty announcement made that clear to Taim and to anyone else who might have been handling him.&quot;<br /><br />How could anyone anticipate creating a school of channelers, with even Taim being surprised that Rand was able to attract <br />anyone to try to be a channeler, let alone a few that actually had the ability?  And the Black Tower certainly doesn't seem to be under the Shadow's control, whether Taim is a darkfriend or not.  These days, he only seems to have a small core group of followers, and most seem to go their own way.<br /><br />&quot;7.Why not? Demandred is a gambler, and if the event were properly staged, there would be minimal risk to Rand.&quot;<br /><br />Then what was the purpose of it?  It certainly didn't increase Rand's trust of Taim.<br /><br />&quot;8.Light or Dark, Taim is a ruthless, power-hungry killer, so if he thought he could kill Logain (and get away with it), he definitely would. The trouble is, Logain appears to have grown too popular too quickly for Taim to oppose him openly. I think Taim knows that he's on thin ice, and that one more suspicious incident might bring Rand down on his head. Therefore, it's smarter for him to keep Logain in check until he can kind a sneakier way of getting rid of him.&quot;<br /><br />Well, darkfriends don't operate openly.  I would expect that darkfriend Taim would kill Logain from the Shadows.  Or claim Logain went mad or killed himself in a saidin accident.  Those latter are not uncommon in the Black Tower.<br /><br />&quot;9.Regardless of whether Rand's kidnapping was meant to succeed (I don't think it was, but we'll leave that point aside) the Forsaken who planned the kidnapping most certainly did not plan on Galina being overtaken and besieged by an army of Shaido at some dinky waterhole. That was entirely Sammael's doing. What Jordan said about Taim was that Taim heard about Rand's disappearance and the sudden movement of a butt-load of Shaido and put two and two together. If Taim were a darkfriend working for Demandred, then he would set off looking for Rand to prevent Sevanna from spoiling his patron's plot and doing the-Light-knows-what with Rand.&quot;<br /><br />How is Taim going to get wind of the movements of a bunch of Shaido, when even the group that kidnapped Rand only got a very short advance warning by their own scouts that were there?  If he was told by his supposed Forsaken masters of this, which seems to be the only realistic way he could know, it wouldn't have been paranoia that motivated the rescue, but orders.<br /><br />&quot;10.Um, Taim _is_ the second-in-command. Rand is the First Asha'man and Taim is his Number Two.&quot;  <br /><br />Rand may have created the Black Tower, and be in rank above Taim, but he is an absentee leader.  I am referring to active leadership in the Black Tower.  Most asha'man would not know Rand on sight even.  And Rand put it all on Taim at the Black Tower, so technically he is the #1 there.  <br /><br />&quot;11.Why should Taim be freaked out that Rand, a male channeler, wanted to cleanse saidin? Every male channeler wishes that such a thing could be done. The important thing is whether Rand had a way to do it, and until TPoD/WH, no one working for the Shadow believed that Rand had a concrete plan or sufficient means for doing something that monumental. It was only when Cyndane revealed that Rand had the Choedan Kal that they really started freaking out.&quot;<br /><br />Taim would be freaked out because it is against the wishes of the Great Lord.  Recall how all the other Chosen freaked out, such as Dashiva being &quot;pole-axed&quot;.  And why did Dashiva and the fearsome foursome attack Rand 2 weeks after Dashiva found out about Rand's intentions, but before learning that Rand had the Choedan Kal?  And Cyndane/Lanfear certainly knew that Rand had the CK for a very long time, since Fires of Heaven.<br /><br />&quot;12.Reread the passages in question. In LoC, Rand says that he wants to do it. In TPoD, he accidentally blurts out that he thinks he knows how. That's a huge difference. Furthermore, where in the books does it say that Rand's determination to cleanse the Taint was even the direct cause of the Fab Four's attack? They were already trying to kill him back in Illian, and at least some of those attempts were probably planned before he made his remarks about saidin.&quot;<br /><br />So, why are they trying to kill Rand then, which violates the &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; edict?<br /><br />&quot;13.You should go read the WOTFAQ section on the Fab Four's attack. There are myriad perspectives on who ordered what when, who was hiding what from whom, and whether the attackers were even meant to succeed.&quot;<br /><br />Recall Demandred's rant in the FCH in Winter's Heart.  He was pissed that &quot;those blind fools, those idiots&quot; failed in <br />Cairhien.  Why?  The only thing they failed at was KILLING RAND.  They certainly weren't trying to capture him, by trying to explode the castle around him, or blasting Rand with attacks like Dashiva did.


created: 2005-07-12 13:25:16
subject: <b>Following orders</b>
body:
Just want to point out that there is no proof the fearsome foursome were going to FOLLOW  taims orders.  (This being used as Tain=Darfriend evidence)  It simply points out that Taim gave orders...  and that Demandred seemed not to know about them.  The darkfriends may have ignored the orders if not for the same order being issued by Forsaken.  <br /><br />Not claiming he is or isn't just pointing that out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-12 13:59:27
subject: <b>To boarderlander ...</b>
body:
Actually, that's not true.  From Kisman's thoughts ...<br /><br />We know Taim's order occurred before the attack in Cairhien (&quot;Kill him, the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien&quot; ). <br /><br />We also know that Demandred's order occurred after the attack in Cairhien. &quot;Kill him, Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discoverd <b>again</b>.&quot;<br /><br />The &quot;again&quot; part clearly indicates that Demandred's order occurred after the failed first attack in Cairhien.<br /><br />Therefore, the 4 Asha'man were only following orders from Taim at the time of the first attack.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-13 05:23:10
subject: <b>New title.</b>
body:
I just thought of a new title for this theory, Mazrim's life and Taims.<br /><br />If you think I'm a fool take a look at my username.


created: 2005-07-14 10:23:16
subject: <b>the dark oaths</b>
body:
must include some part that forbid BA to tell anything about current plans of the shadow (look at the FAQ about the how and why of this). Therefore, Liandrins 13 cannot be involved in any plot regarding Taim, because the dark oaths would have prevented Joiya from saying anything about it, had she even had the slightest indication that BA meant to do something with Taim. Note that Amico, being stilled, does eventually tell the truth about the BA. It's a real pity Moiraine and the Wonder Girls never thought of asking them how they became BA, then they'd have known not to trust Joya.


created: 2005-07-17 00:48:43
subject: <b>Overall, this is a good analysis of Taim</b>
body:
It just about has me convinced that Taim isn't a DF. I had originally assumed that he was, but it was pointed out to me a few months ago that there's nothing that outright says that he is. Most of us just assume it. I haven't been able to decide one way or another at this point, but your comments are definitely leaning me towards him not being one.<br /><br />I particularly like your bit about Taim knowing about Rand planning to cleanse the Taint and yet the Shadow did nothing about it until AM that we <i>know</i> are DF's learned of it.<br /><br />Another point that you mention but I don't think that you stressed was the fact that Demandred, Moridin, and Taim all gave those few DF AM orders to kill Rand. The fact that Moridin and Demandred both gave them orders doesn't mean much since the Forsaken frequently work at cross-purposes, <i>but</i> if Taim was a DF wouldn't they have told <i>Taim</i> to tell the AM to do it and not have told the AM directly? Neither Demandred, nor Moridin talked to Taim about it. Both ordered AM directly under him. If he were a DF I would have expected the orders to have gone to him.<br /><br />Also, I don't think that you have any grounds to say that it's obvious that the BA were involved in Taim's escape. We can't really know one way or another at this point. The BA that told the girls of the plot was still under the three BA oaths and it's fairly clear that one of those oaths is to not reveal any plans of the BA. That's a stronger indication that the BA were <i>not</i> involved than that they were. For it to have been the BA, it would have had to have been a plot completely unknown to the BA that the girls questioned. As such, I don't think that there's anything &quot;clear&quot; about the BA having done it.  It could have been them, but most likely not. But just the same, the rest of what you have is fairly strong with regards to whether or not Taim is a DF.<br /><br />As for his knowledge of the AoL, his not appearing to have been affected by the taint, his so-called Aiel comment, and so forth, I still hold that he was indeed affected by the taint, got the voice from his AoL past life in his head, and it took him over. &quot;Taim Explained,&quot; the last Taim theory on the theory post explains why on earth I would think such a thing as that (though at this point I think that it could be tightened up a bit and shortened considerably). But your theory didn't really cover how and why Taim knows what he knows and does what he does, other than whether or not he's a DF. You touch lightly on such things, but you certainly don't seem to give a full explanation of them. As for the DF part, this theory is top-notch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-10 02:55:15
subject: <b>Dragoncon updates</b>
body:
I was able to ask several questions of the Creator at Dragoncon regarding Taim and got some helpful tidbits.  Found out that he is a sparker (was born with the spark), is in his late 20's, has started slowing already).  Also RJ mentioned that he went to Caemlyn merely to hide from Aes Sedai, with help from Rand's amnesty, and that Taim cannot help but leave a wide wake even when he is trying to be sneaky which is why Bashere's army was able to track him.


created: 2005-11-15 22:38:22
subject: <b>it was a good run</b>
body:
I think the epilogue in knife of dreams shoots this theory down.<br /><br />No one but a forsaken or darkfriend would say let the lord of chaos rule


created: 2009-05-24 12:10:22
subject: <b>Enjoyable read...</b>
body:
....but it seems apparent that Taim is a DF by the end of KoD.  The only remaining questions:<br />a. always a DF or turned/crossed-over at some point?<br />b. one of the Forsaken reincarnated?  if so, when?<br />c. some other DF soul reincarnated or going all LTT in his head?<br /><br />After reading the more recent theories on the boards, and multiple comments, my opinion has changed.  At this point, I believe Taim = Be'lal.  Still uncertain as to when the soul placement occurred, but lean toward after his escape and before his assignment to the BT.  <br /><br />Primary reasons:<br />- Taim's sigil and colors at the BT <br />- his frequently cited comments, &quot;so-called Aiel,&quot; &quot;Let the LoC Rule.&quot;<br />- his recent behavior resembles the other Forsaken efforts; often contrary, self-serving orders to other DFs rather than blindly serving one of the other Forsaken (e.g. Alviarin/Mesaana)<br />- freeing Rand at Dumai's Wells, killing the gholam, etc. all can be explained by a Forsaken facilitating the DO's efforts to turn the DR while maintaining his own schemes for greater power, shot at being NB<br /><br />continued in other post on Be'lal/Taim


created: 2005-07-10 09:06:25
subject: <b>well done!</b>
body:
thanks for putting what exactly happened at the cleansing across very clearly! it all makes so much sense now...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-11 03:33:58
subject: <b>Interesting but...</b>
body:
...I belive that it is mentioned in the books that the evil of the two wounds are constantly fighting eachother (wich would make sense). That could mean that they have some kind self-preservation-thingy going on and the reason that one haven't taken over and destroyed the other is because such an attack would leave it too vulnerable to a counterattack (I belive Rand should be thankful for this). In the case of the Taint vs. Shadar Logoth itself the Taint was already intruding on Shadar Logoth domain and the two evils didn't have a host to sustain them both and keep them apart. Thus the two evils was forced to destroy eachother in a fight for survival. This and most of your theory aren't mutually exclusive though...<br /><br />Btw, I think the relationship between Aridhol-power and the True Power is more of a matter/anti-matter relationship than two magnets repelling eachother.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Logain Reborn</font><br /><font color="lightgreen">Keeper of the happy Cheese <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="lightblue">Lord of the Teatime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="pink">Ruler of all fluffy tings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="gray">And thirtyone other titles<br />I don't deserve and have<br />never heard before.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-11 04:41:23
subject: <b>Mazrim Taim- Darkfriend?</b>
body:
I have always thought that Mazrim Taim may not be a Darkfriend, I understood and accepted the above premisis on my own until the end of the chapters where it looks like Logain is facing a darkfriend faction of the black tower.  We all forget that Mazrim Taim likes power and prestige (remember all the fancy titles he came up with?).  From all the readings of the Age of Legends and the memories of LTT, it seems that the male channelers were very much into competition with each other. Now add competition + one power + ego + love of power and prestige + once in the past having the Wheel of Time spin you out as a &quot;False Dragon&quot; and you get Mazrim Taim.  Logain appears to not to be into competition, power, ego, or love of power and prestige as much, hence he naturally wouldn't be a competitor with Rand.  I think it only natural that Mazrim is a competitor with Rand, they both knew it from the very beginning.<br /><br />Mazrim also hates the Aes Sedai and given his nature, present, and past, it is natural that he is paranoid (were I an Asha'man I would be paranoid too, I mean, other than a fellow Asha'man, who's on YOUR side?).  he created a system of eyes and ears to keep tabs on everyone/everything which add to the recruitment program and if anything, this has fueled his power, prestige, and paranoia. <br /><br /> Has anyone ever considered (versus automatically jumping to the simple conclusion of &quot;darkfriend&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> that he may be affected by the taint (it's not always obvious like a pimple) to the point where he may actually think at one point that he is or can replace the Dragon Reborn?<br /><br />My two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-11 05:30:31
subject: <b>to Nikolai</b>
body:
i think....i &lt;think&gt;, that you may just be on the wrong theory here<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-11 21:39:31
subject: <b>yeah pretty much</b>
body:
but i agree that the evil essence of aridhol and the taint are in opposition, but not &quot;opposites.&quot; it sounds like nit picking but there is a world of difference there. e.g. two wolves can fight each other but they are still both wolves and that is much different from a wolf and a stag fighting each other. the essence of shadar logoth, mordeth, mashadar etc and the dark one and his/its taint are just two different brands of evil. they oppose each other, but i would not say that they are opposite in nature like the dark one and the creator. i guess you could call them different shades of black. <br />  seeing how they are in opposition and both still around i would not be surprised to see fain/mordeth/ordeith at the last battle, but i doubt it will turn into a 3 sided fight. i think fain and whoever he has in his influence will be more like a nasty patch of bramble for rand to cut through before he climbs a mountain. or maybe something to deal with later. he's not the cosmic sort of threat that the dark one is but he is defintely more than a minor nuisance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder<br />We danced among the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-13 09:20:00
subject: <b>quick comment and question</b>
body:
I never really liked how RJ had Rand clean saidin.  Maybe im misunderstanding so set me straight pls if I am.  I understand the whole siv/saidar taint vs shadar logoth idea, but to me that would mean that Rand would have had to channel every theorietical inch of saidin through the &quot;siv&quot; in order to clean it all. And if that is true how did this stop the recently cleaned saidin from mixing with the not yet cleaned saidin and thus becoming contaminated again? pls help.


created: 2005-07-14 15:58:13
subject: <b>Rand Did Not Have To Channel All Of Saidin</b>
body:
Try an Einstein thought experiment.<br /><br />Think of saidin as being held in a bowl a mile wide and infinitely deep. The taint, as RJ has frequently described in the series, is a thin, finite covering that floats on top of infinite saidin. Unless you had 25 male and 25 female channelers willing to kill themselves to create a well of pure saidin, there was no way to get to saidin that didn't drag along the taint.<br /><br />At the Cleansing, Rand &quot;tilted the bowl&quot; and sent infinite saidin and finite taint flowing into Shadar Logoth. Infinite saidin flowed through SL and back into the bowl from which it came. Finite taint, attracted by the opposite evil of mashadar, stayed in SL. It took all day but eventually all of the finite taint was in SL, causing the explosing which destroyed Shadar Logoth.


created: 2005-07-14 21:55:33
subject: <b>ClubCaved is right.</b>
body:
Except that if it were true, the finite taint would have been absorbed into all the men channeling through the years.<br />None the less...<br /><br />Rand did not really even have to use the Choeden Cal, it would have worked just the same, only it would have taken months or years, with Aes Sedai or Asha'man washing his and Nynaeve's weariness.<br /><br />Just felt I had to throw that in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-14 23:10:42
subject: <b>Bowl Analogy</b>
body:
Good analogy with the bowl of saidin and the taint floating on top.  The taint would have to be finite as it is a result of a one-time action on the part of the Dark One.  His ability to harness chaos and channel the True Power is limited, just like the ability of channelers to harness the One Power is limited.  He may be incredibly powerful compared to even the strongest channelers but there are still limits to his ability at any given moment.  He could only attach a finite portion of the taint to saidin, which he did with spectacular results.  Even so, the taint was finite so Rand was able to remove it and induce it to destroy itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-11-11 12:45:52
subject: <b>A reply to ThereIsWOTInMyVeins</b>
body:
The amle channelers, I believe, did have some of the finite taint become &quot;attatched&quot; to them.  This is manifested in their insanity and rotting.  You might say that would have made Saidin clear by now, there must have been many male channelers in the past, enough to &quot;cleanse&quot; it on their own.  I have two responses, I like the first more.<br />1) They were cleansing it slowly, however the DO is an ultra-cosmic super-power.  He could easily put enough of a &lt;finite&gt; taint on Saidin that even the strongest channelers ever (like LTT, Rand, Logain, Taim, the Forsaken, etc.) could channel massive amounts of Saidin for millenia an milenia without cleansing it completely.  Eventually, the OP would be clean, but it woud take a really long time.  &lt;I might have hyperbolzed this a little, but you get my point <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> &gt;<br />2) Possibly, the taint got cycled through their bodies.  This would give rise to all the common effects associated with the taint but also allow Saidin to never be cleaned naturally.  Rand did something unnatural, a Spring-cleaning of the Power if you will, by making the evils of SL and the DO &lt;kill&gt; eachother off in SL.


created: 2008-05-07 10:16:12
subject: <b>The Taint was Finite</b>
body:
I like the Idea that the DO only applied a finite amount of taint onto the top of the &quot;bowl&quot; that contains Saidin. However being a God his &quot;finite&quot; amount of Taint was probably so huge that if not for Rands cleansing it would likely drive 1000000 male channelers mad before being used up. (Just a number pulled out from nowhere, likely it's much higher).<br /><br />


created: 2005-07-20 09:43:17
subject: <b>rofl nice 1st bit...</b>
body:
but the last part is just too far-fetched for my liking, afterall, whats the point of rand if it's Fain that's the key...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-20 13:47:22
subject: <b>I like the idea of Fain killing Shaidar Haran ...</b>
body:
... I can see how what's happened so far in the series has been building to that, as you've speculated.<br /><br />But, I don't agree that Fain and/or his dagger will play the primary role in reimprisoning the Dark One.  The whole series has been building to a climax that involves Rand defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle (the various Prophecies, etc.).  It's inconceivable to me that RJ would throw all that foreshadowing aside, kill Rand off, and then have Fain be responsible for defeating the Dark One. <br /><br />But, as far as I'm concerned, even if your final conclusion proves wrong, it doesn't detract much from the whole theory.  It's still well thought out and insightful.<br /><br />Oh, and thanks for addressing my quibble.  I understand your point.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-20 15:10:12
subject: <b>ah si</b>
body:
you are painting fain as gholam, the corrupted (semi) innocent who ends up being the key to it all.  to address speedbart, frodo was of the utmost necessity but it was gholams actions that brought about the destruction of sauron.  rand likewise is the thang, and it will be his actions that could put fain in a position to hurt the dark one.<br /><br />i like this idea, though would not be surprised if it was all mister rand al'thor in the end (with some help from his friends)...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-20 16:09:48
subject: <b>Little thing</b>
body:
SH has used his ability only against followers of Shadow so we don't know how effective that ability would be against those who haven't &quot;sold&quot; their souls. Or I think that anyone who becames darkpal actually gives to DO possibility to controll their channeling and SH is simply using that &quot;zombie program&quot;. So it is possible that ability would not work against Rand.


created: 2005-07-20 17:31:04
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Y'know, Foxhead, at first, I thought your theories weren't very good. But after having read all four parts of &quot;Fain's Final Role&quot;, I've changed my opinion. This was a <i>very</i> well presented theory. I like the implications you make, and I agree with it, for the most part. I also am convinced that Fain will kill SH at TG. We all know that Rand is going to die at some point, possibly before TG, but I like the way you put it. Rand, unable to channel, up against a Super Fade bare handed(I say bare handed because Rand's gotten too used to using his &quot;lightsabre&quot;, and will probably not bring an actual weapon with him), Rand gets slaughtered(fulfilling &quot;His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, Fain kills SH, and moves on to the DO. Then, Mat blows the Horn, brings back everyone, including Rand. Rand charges into Thakan'dar to se Fain and Shai'tan going at it. Now, if he were smart, he'd let them duke it out until there was only one left, but it's been shown time and again that the characters aren't as smart as they like to think. Rand will get involved, start facing the DO, Fain will try to kill Rand, but will be unsuccessful, cause Rand's already dead, get pissed off, shank the DO with his dagger, which will give Rand the idea to imprison Shai'tan in the ruby, or something like that. Either that, or the AP will overwhelm the TP, destroying the DO, with a little help from Rand, and Fain will replace Shai'tan as the new DO for the ages to come.<br /><br />There, I believe that's pretty much your theory in a nutshell, yes? Well, with a little twist at the end. But yeah, overall, a big thumbs up. Seven of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-21 01:27:49
subject: <b>All in all i like it but...</b>
body:
What of rand?, Themematically we see three players Dark One, Rand, Fain each oppose each other equally. But as the book is primarily about Rand per se I RJ will have to conclude the confrontation betwen rand and fain 'and' rand and the DO <br />Any resolution between fain and the DO without rand is anti-climatic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have never endorsed any viewpoint at any time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />This one included <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-21 07:44:24
subject: <b>The aridhol seals</b>
body:
but if the true power and the aridhol power touch eachother they destoy eachother. So if the dark one could be inprisoned with the aridhol power wouldn't he just be able to break the seals by touching them? Sure it would cause quitte a nice explosion but I doubt it would kill the DO. Unless the seals would be made with as much aridhol power as the DO has true power which seams very unlikely.


created: 2005-07-21 08:04:40
subject: <b>A bit late....</b>
body:
But it wasn't Mordeth that provided Fain with the need for the SL Dagger. The SL Dagger is addictive, Mat needed it, he missed it and wanted it. He wasn't taken over by Mordeth. Like The One Ring was addictive in LotR.<br /><br />Only just read the theories and small point I know.<br /><br />I think you're right about Fain vs Shaidar but I think it has to be Rand the seals the DO. I don't think that the SL Dagger will be the &quot;seal&quot; as the prison has to be remade perfectly like the Creator made it in the first place. Not some patch job using another power that didn't exist at the time of Creation.


created: 2005-07-21 15:05:15
subject: <b>Me Likes!!!!</b>
body:
I'm not too sure about Fain locking the dark one, there is another possibility: Fain ends up in the Pit of Doom one way or another (perhaps duelling with The Hand of The Shadow), Rand and/or others try to seal the Dark One again, and Fain and the Dark One are both locked in a small place, sort of similar to Shadar Logoth evil and the Taint on Saidin. This is, like your own 2nd part, pure speculation, but it's just a thought. <br /><br /><br />About what Rand's part could be like, if Fain is the Key... Anyone thought of the Forsaken, Dreadlords, armies of Trolloks  and Myrddraal, and last but anything but least: Moridin? They would need to be dealt with, one way or another... and Rand has to be there:<br /><br />&quot;Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.<br />Once for mourning, once for birth.<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.&quot; -WOTmania Faq.<br /><br />Rand's blood may be stained while batteling Moridin, while batteling a trollok, a gholam, the Dark One himself. <br /><br />These are pretty random thoughts, so don't pay much heed to them. <br /><br />NICE WORK MATE


created: 2005-07-21 15:58:29
subject: <b>I agree and disagree</b>
body:
The part about Fain killing SH is quite solid and I believe he will kill the &quot;Hand of the Shadow&quot;.  I believe this will be his big role in the last battle.  <br /><br />I cannot see the books switching from &quot;A young man learns that he must die to save the world&quot; to &quot;A crazy man obsessed with a young man watches him die then embarks on a quest to single handedly defeat the dark one and his right hand man&quot;.<br /><br />I am impressed with your theory and the thought/intelligence used in producing it although I agree with only half of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Narg smart.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-21 22:40:44
subject: <b>I like the fist part</b>
body:
Fain killing SH makes a great deal of sense. Good work!<br /><br />But the part about Fain defeating the DO and the whole &quot;Adrihol Power&quot; thing don't sound too plausible to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-22 08:16:51
subject: <b>clarifying</b>
body:
i still think that Rand will have a large role at TG. however to fulfill his dying and coming back again he must die at some point, here either Narishma or Logain will rally the forces blah, blah, blah<br /><br />it is during this point when everyone thinks that Rand is dead (either from SH or whatever) that Fain comes to the foreground, killing SH before going back to Shayol Ghul, to finish it where it all started (for him anyway). Rand come back does what he needs to, whipping Moridin butt etc. and following Fain into Shayol Ghul and &lt;uses&gt; Fain, it isn't something Fain intends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-22 14:16:13
subject: <b>The truth...</b>
body:
We've heard more often than I want to admit that &quot;The truth you hear isn't always the truth you thought you heard,&quot; or something similar in reference to Aes Sedai.  AND that we often don't know what the Prophesies of the Dragon mean, even when it seems obvious.  From what I remember is that the Dragon must be at TG for the Light to have a chance.  I don't recall that he has to actually fight the DO.  <br /><br />This theory seems in line with the evil twists RJ plays on us, and I can definitely see something like this happening.  I used to just think Fain was an annoying subplot...but he showed up in the beginning of tEotW, and has been around since.  His role is NOT insignificant at TG, I'm sure.


created: 2005-07-23 17:33:11
subject: <b>No one too far gone...</b>
body:
I've always been of the mindset that Fain would turn back to the &quot;Light&quot;.  Not necessisarily on the side of the light, but instead just really ticked at the DO, so he kills SH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watching Firefly DVDs repeatedly...</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-24 02:24:32
subject: <b>Other uses for a well</b>
body:
This isn't about Fain, but you mention of SH's abilities brought something to mind (I'm still a little hung up on the true purpose of the Eye of the World). Can a well be used by someone who is shielded? There seems to be some similarities between the descriptions of the Forsaken who have dealt with SH and the perceptions of the Aes Sedai who enter Far Madding.  It seems to me that the Eye of the World was basically an economy sized well. If being in a stedding is the same as being shielded by SH, then Rand would need some outside source of saidin to use against him.  I think wells must have had a greater purpose in the AOL than the little party tricks Cadsuane and Nynaeve used them for in Far Madding. They might have been a slim ray of hope for captured Aes Sedai in the War of the Power. Keep in mind that Nynaeve found her well in a collection of other ter'angreal which seem to have been created for someone who expected to be attacked with the One Power at any moment.  I know I've rambled a little off the subject of Fain, but I think this line of thought is worth considering.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 16:35:36
subject: <b>Congrats <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I read all four parts and it was well researched. I agree with most of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 17:13:47
subject: <b>yes, yes,yes,no</b>
body:
the first 3 parts of your throry are good but that fain being the seal....NO<br /><br />there is not going to be a seal this time. the dark ones enty to the world must be closed not bloked up...think of the bore as a open door, the creator(in the beging of time) closed the door(now the dark one cannt get to the world) but in the AOL the door is opened, LTT cant close the door so puts a few veryy large objects(the seals) in the way(now the dark one is bloked out but...), the dark one is geting rid of the verry large objects and will soon get a clear doorway to the world, rand must close the door<br /><br />did anyone get that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..........what?.....STOP LOOKING AT ME!!...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-26 09:39:10
subject: <b>to angry trollocq</b>
body:
as you can see it is hard to explain exactly what is going to happen at TG. i don't mean a seal as in what LTT made, i mean to seal away from the world. that fain will be the focal point of a NEW PRISON<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-06 22:51:14
subject: <b>Who else?</b>
body:
Was the AP exclusive to Mordeth? Were there others who could wield it? How did he get the AP? Any Ideas?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 21:47:15
subject: <b>Good but...</b>
body:
Very nice and well thought out theory.  Only problem is with fain being the main source of the new seal on the DO prison and that there is soooo much theory that if one crucial part about it turned out to be false, it could very well bring the entire theory down.  Very nice though, guess we'll all just have to RAFO to see for sure.


created: 2006-01-19 16:39:09
subject: <b>Hm</b>
body:
We know Lews Therin did it with Saidin and cuendillar, and the fact that this late in the series the remaking of cuendillar has been rediscovered makes me think that Fain will not reseal the Bore without Rand.<br /><br />By the way, have you guys read this?<br />http://www.tor.com/shayol.html<br /><br />pretty neat stuff.


created: 2006-07-15 13:09:17
subject: <b>AP? maybe, but I don't think so</b>
body:
I don't think there's such a thing as the AP, as most of the Fain stuff is explained by things with out something quite so supernatura. Mordeth destroyed Aridhol from the inside by inducing, essentially, extreme paranoia and suspicion, as see in Matt after having the dagger. Now if this was due merely to his prescence, then it becomes easier to explain even the freaky stuff. eg. the illusions in WH, we KNOW Rand has messed with his own head with the list and isn't entirely stable mentally. he IS paranoyed and suspicious naturally , so with Fain/Mordeth adding their own effect, as well as Rand's obsession with finding the rogue Asha'man, it suddenly becomes less illusions made by fain, and more Rand's over-active insanity/imagination.<br />It's like waiting for someone, hearing your name and turning around findin no-one there. If you're expecting something, your mind convinces you it MIGHT have happenned.<br />then imagine it happenning to a crazy person on drugs (ok its more extreme than Rand's issues and Fain's effects, but its similar) no-one would ever convince them it wasn't real.<br />plus...IIRC, Fain legged it a very short time after making the 'illusions' and Lan Rocks up, would he have not heard extra voices?<br /><br />It'd be cool if AP did exist tho.<br />Nice theory in most places, congrats.


created: 2007-05-05 15:27:30
subject: <b>great</b>
body:
i think the theory is pretty sound<br />and it would be just like RJ to direct everyone to one point i.e. rand as the main character, just to have fain come in and save the day.<br />i have no doubt rand is a big player at the end but there are also matt and perrin as big players as well.<br />and i don't think the AP so much of a soure of power like the TP and OP but rather a name give to a group of powers that fain can use


created: 2007-06-10 00:35:52
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I just don't think Fain is that important, sure there are many things that makes him special but what you don't realize is that RJ likes to creates many sides, like White tower and Children of Light they aren't bad but they really not going to help Rand, then you have Fain who is bad but really isn't going to help the Shadow. But i'd like to see a duel between Fain and SH, though i hope Fain gets wasted. Or maybe Rand can just balefire him sometime, somewhere....


created: 2008-04-22 15:21:21
subject: <b>The best evidence...</b>
body:
...in favour of Fain being at Shayol Ghul is Robert Jordan's blatant ripoff of Tolkien.  Gollum has to fall in the lava to inadvertently save the world.  Ergo, Fain's fall into the Pit of Doom will probably destroy the Dark One's foothold in the world.<br /><br />At least, that is what I might have said back before Jordan decided to extend out the series.  He may have changed his mind by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-07 10:52:21
subject: <b>Do a Ghollum!</b>
body:
Rand &quot;just&quot; flings Fain/Mordeth into the Bore Causing the DO to have to divert influence to destroy this annoying but dangerous maggot who totaly hates him. This distraction lasts long enough for the DO to be pushed out of the pattern causing the Creators prison to snap shut. As others have teorised the Bore is actually a conection made of the OP from &quot;reality&quot; to the DO's prison. The distraction of Fain migth just be what is needed to unrawel the weave of the Bore.<br /><br />My position has always been that the DO MUST pour his power into the world in order to remain an influence in the World. Granted Evil and Chaotic acts fuel his power and the Bligth is a manifestation of it but it also serves the purpose of him touching the World. <br /><br />Mordet's Origin:<br />A thougth of mine is that Mordeth was a either a Dreadlord from the AoL or the TW that for some reason turned on the DO, probably by breaking a promise that was instrumental for him turning in the first place. As I see it swearing to the DO in the PoD is the same as being forcebly turned, only you do it willingly with the DO help. That means the DO's attaching himself to you and markedly reworking your personality, probaly by erasing Empathy and any regards for others.


created: 2005-07-25 10:50:49
subject: <b>Your forgetting one thing ....</b>
body:
... Galad will ally with the Aes Sedai. That means Travelling. So he could end up anywhere. It's quite possible the Ashaman/Aes Sedai with Perrin could find Galad's lot - leading to a reuniting with Morgase. What role MOrgase could have in the future I dont know though... maybe rule Amadicia once its retaken?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 11:30:37
subject: <b>You above seem to have missed what Etzel was saying..</b>
body:
His theory was about Galad's next move and he ruled out why meeting up with Perrin etc..is unlikely. <br /><br />You say he's going to ally with Aes Sedai. Eventually that will prolly happen, but the problem is where are the closest AS to where Galad is now, that know how to travel ? Either Tear or Caemlyn. Is Galad just going to stumble across some in very near future ? Or even more unlikely some of Perrin's followers will just happen to go for wander around to see what's happening, while they should be concentrating on getting Faile from free. I'm not saying that none of this might happen, just that it's unlikely to happen until we know what Galad does next and him going back Amadicia as Etzel has proposed is much more likely to happen before any of what you've had to say will.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 11:54:17
subject: <b>What Simon says...</b>
body:
I just wanted to explain Galad's next logical step.<br /><br />All Aes Sedai who can Travel are either at Tar Valon or at Tear, IIRC.<br />It's especially unlikely that Galad's Whitecloaks will find any Aes Sedai in Amadicia, since WC law forbade AS to enter the country in the past, and at the moment the Seanchan are the rulers there.<br /><br />Even if the WC would, by chance, find such an Aes Sedai or an Asha'man party there, those probably couldn't and wouldn't transport seven thousand men.<br /><br />Of course, eventually the Whitecloaks will ally with the Lightside and fight, together with the good Aes Sedai, Asha'man and the rest of the humankind, against the Shadow at Tarmon Gai'don.<br />But in my opinion, Galad has to free Amadicia first.


created: 2005-07-25 12:12:34
subject: <b>I think you hit the nail on the head</b>
body:
One of the things that has been discussed on the MB is how the Children of the Light, as a military force, has been decimated to the point of not being a threat. Certainly 7,000 men is no longer considered a large army in a world where the Seanchan have vast numbers, where the Borderlanders have amassed over 200,000 men, the Band of the Red Hand, and the Rebel AS army have 30,000-50,000+ in their ranks.<br /><br />Suroth's reaction to Ituralde's raids, opens the door to Amadicia, and it would be a smart move both politically and militarily speaking, for Galad to take the opportunity to free these people and add to the ranks of the Children.<br /><br />On a side note~ I thought that somewhere in one of the previous books, the estimated number of WC had been put at 9,000 men. Either I'm remembering wrong, or there's 2,000 soldiers unaccounted for. <br /><br />Anyway, good deduction on your part Etzel. Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 15:45:54
subject: <b>The other 2000 children and some comments.</b>
body:
LitN - The other 2-3000 Whitecloaks are the ones following Asunawa and are still with the Seanchan.<br /><br />This theory could be right, but I'm not sure it would be possible for Galad to succeed in this with only 7000 men and no way to counteract the damane.  At least not without finding allies first.


created: 2005-07-25 16:17:39
subject:
<b>Very good, but I'm sticking to my guns <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
There isn't much in the way of direct proof for us to say one way or the other, but I'd say your hypothesis is at least as good as kcf's idea about joining Ituralde, and probably a little more realistic.  Having said that, I'm going to stick with my gut feeling and say that Galad will end up with Perrin, not as his ally, but as his enemy.<br /><br />The biggest problem I have with your idea is that the Seanchan would probably expect Galad to try leading the Children back to the Fortress of the Light.  It's the key to all of Amadicia.  Whoever controls the Fortress, controls Amador and can control the entire country.  I don't think there is any way that Galad could sneak up on the Fortress and manage to wrest it away from a superior force, and I think the Seanchan in Amadicia will logically concentrate their forces in the Fortress and use it as a base to hunt the now renegade Children that Galad leads.<br /><br />I think a smart stratagist would strike out in the direction of least resistance, and for that is north and east from the hunting lodge towards northern Altara.  If Galad wants to join with anyone fighting the Seanchan, the Shaido make a great deal of sense.  Those are the enemies that the Seanchan wanted the Children to eliminate, so it seems reasonable that the Shaido would be the one enemy that Galad and the other Children have the most knowledge of.  Considering that Tallanvor allying Perrin with an army of Seanchan, I think this sets up the perfect confrontation between Galad's Children, and Perrin's coalition of forces.  It also brings several ongoing plot threads into play: Galad and Morgase, Perrin and Byar/Dain Bornhald, Berelain and Galad (as her man in white).  If the prologue is indicative of the pace that RJ intends to follow for all of KoD, I think this subplots will be resolved sooner rather than later.<br /><br />Certainly there are some logical difficulties with the idea that any Aiel would ally themselves with an outside force, but I don't think they are insurmountable in this instance.  Sevanna has already shown her disdain for many Aiel traditions, and she has already accepted the Mera'din into their midst.  Even the Children's all white uniform may help them approach the ever suspicious Aiel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-26 05:27:45
subject: <b>I suppose Amadicia isn't guarded very well at the moment.</b>
body:
I already pointed this out on the WoT MB. <br /><br />It's emphasized in KoD, prologue, what pretentious present the Seanchan made Valda, e.g. the manor house or the heavy gold ring.<br />This seems quite strange and is different to their former tactic, namely to fight and defeat hostile armies, (also the WC &amp; Ailron's army before) and let them swear the Oaths.<br /><br />I believe one reason was to get the Whitecloaks as true allies, so that the Seanchan can transport most troops, especially damane, via to'raken away from Amadicia without fearing an attack from the WC.<br />Their main aim is of course the White Tower, another Illian.<br /><br />Now, that, according to Suroth's order, also most rakens are moved away from Amadicia to Tarabon, I believe the Fortress won't be defended very well, and that Galad can win it back.


created: 2005-07-28 00:36:46
subject: <b>I like the idea</b>
body:
I think that this is very likely too happen, as it would put another of the 'main' characters in a leadership position. But, I also think that it would be cool if somehow Galad stumbled onto the Rebel Aes Sedai in Salidar. Especially, if in KoD Gawyn takes the Younglings to help the Salidar Aes Sedai and the brothers end up leading armies in a fight against each other. lol maybe not so likely, but it would b kool


created: 2005-07-28 17:44:47
subject: <b>Good point about the prisoners</b>
body:
But Galad needn't HOLD the Fortress of the Light.  And it would be a bad move, tying him down to a fixed location.<br /><br />He needs to move his army to where it would do the most good.   I think he might try to the prisoners on a raid as he's heading east, and then keep heading east.  Eventualy he might bump into Perrin.<br /><br />My reason for thinking this?  Morgase.  Plus more information. Whether or not this is before or after Morgase is freed, I have no clue.  Would create problems given Perrin's &quot;alliances&quot; and history with the whitecloaks.  But also gives him a force to balance off Masema and the Seanchan.<br /><br />So I offer half a vote that he'll meet up with Perrin.<br /><br />But excellent theory


created: 2005-07-29 10:39:24
subject: <b>Some interesting thoughts here...</b>
body:
but I'm gonna go with Domedes theory, and mainly because of the points he made i.e. Galad / Whitecloaks meeting with Seanchan/ Perrin,  and Aiel in the middle brings various elemnts into the same place at the same time, thus neatly bring several plotlines to possibel endpoint sooner rather than later (he ahs to start bringing different strabnds together soon, or else Book 12 will be 2,000 pages long!)  It isn't that hard to imagine a scene whereby, in the middle of battle, Galad and Byar come face to face with Perrin Berelain and a freed Morgase.<br /><br />One wonders how this would play out, could be very interesting.<br /><br />I also have a vested interest in this possibility, given that one of the storylines that has always annoyed me to the point of boredom has been the whole &quot;Berelain pursuing Perrin&quot; thing. Berelain falling for Galad will end that one at least, and not a moment too soon in my opinion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-07-29 21:33:19
subject: <b>Tarabon Rebellion</b>
body:
Isn't Galad on the Tarabon/Amadacian border the same time as the Tarabon rebllion against the Seanchan?<br /><br />Wouldn't joining the Tarabon 'Party' be an easy choice?<br />


created: 2005-08-01 11:20:46
subject: <b>Andor</b>
body:
Another possibility would be Andor. After all WCs who would behave and whose commander is queen's half-brother would have good chances to be allowed there. Besides local people have already seen a lot of things. So seeing Children who really fights against Shadow instead of persecuting mostly innocent people would be pleasant surprise.<br /><br />PS. How popular Galad was among common people? So there is even a possibility that Galad would be even more popular among them than Elayne<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-08-01 15:16:56
subject: <b>It's a good idea...</b>
body:
but it's really contrary to Galad's thoughts. He essentially says that he will ally with the nearest enemies of the Seanchan. And being who he is, I believe that's exactly what he will do. Now, word about the coordinated strike agains the Seanchan in Tarabon will spread, and Galad will likely here about it soon, and he will decide to ally with this group. Basically, my idea still stands - I believe he will seek out Ituralde. I submitted the full (and revised) theory, hopefully it will be posted soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 09:33:12
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
It would consolidate his leadership of the Children, but whether it will be his next move, I don`t know.<br /><br />Diomedes theory will close a lot of plot lines faster! And stop Perrin`s angst. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 18:07:18
subject: <b>A few points...</b>
body:
1) Considering the positioning, he's more likely going to run into The Wolf, and adding 7000 Whitecloaks to the guerilla warfare will certainly be helpful.<br /><br />2) He HAS to bump into Perrin at some point, and not just because of Morgase.  Don't forget Min's viewing of Berelain falling head over heels for the man &quot;dressed in white.&quot;  (And boy, won't they make a pair!  Berelain, with the way she's used to doing things, dealing with Mr. Goody-Two-Shoes, all Prim and Proper!)<br /><br />3) He has to at some point bump into either Mat or Perrin for the simple fact that it's kind of hard for him to ally the Children to the good guys without bumping into them (and I doubt Rand is going to be in the area anytime soon!)<br /><br />All in all, I'm fairly certain he's going to join with Irtualde, and run into Perrin AFTER the fighting with the Shaido.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 14:39:20
subject: <b>Not the Fortress of the Light...</b>
body:
Jordan attended the Citadel so I'm going to assume he is no military dummy. For that reason I disagree with this theory. Galad attempting to do so would be out of character for a cool, level-headed, calculating guy like him. To take a stronghold you need 10 times the number of forces than your opposition. If the defenders have channeler's (which we can assume they do) double it at least. That means the Fortress can not be garrisoned by more than....say 400 troops. And even if all goes according to plan sieges without air support (raken or Aes Sedai) take tiiiiime. It also would NOT represent the type of blow to the Seachans that we assume Galad wants to inflict. <br /><br />He's not dumb, he's going to use his resources in an offensive that maximizes his chances of receiving minimal casualties while inflicting significant wounds. As others have points out, 7000 is not a lot of troops compared with the size of other existing forces. I'll bet he finds one wolf (The Wolf) or the other (Perrin) and leaves the Fortress of the Light as a symbol to his troops as to &quot;why we fight.&quot; Winning back the Fortress of the Light and freeing the hostages has little tactical value at WAY to much cost.<br /><br />There is also the matter of the Aes Sedai. Jordan CLEARLY has shown us a dagger in Act 1 (from the adage, &quot;don't show me a dagger in Act 1 if you don't intend to use it by Act 3&quot; ). This means whatever path he takes needs to lead him to some Aes Sedai quickly. While not likely, it is also not outside the realm of possibility that he ALREADY has access to one or more Aes Sedai. Probably not one that can travel but perhaps freed Aes Sedai damane. Though the hint that 7000 WC &quot;disappeared&quot; seems to support either the ability to move at great speed or stealth (again, pure speculation on my part). Regardless, he needs to show WC and Aes Sedai working together by the end of this book and the most likely place for that to occur would be with Perrin's crowd (what was the mouth's to feed comment?)<br /><br />No, I don't see how freeing the Fortress of the Light advances the story or makes logical sense. I can buy joining The Wolf for strategic reasons and joining Perrin for storyline reasons. Nothing points to the Fortress of the Light.


created: 2005-08-03 16:14:33
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with Ashaman Consultant.  I don't think that Galad would be crazy enough to try to attack the fortress.  The Seanchan have had over a thousand years of near constant warfare to learn their trade and they would not leave a garrison behind undefended.  I think that his estimate of 400 defenders might be a little low considering that the WC consisted of about 10,000 (give or take).  The Fortress of Light was supposed to be almost as large as a palace, you are talking about a small sized city.  Not to mention how in earlier books when Rand lead attacks against Damane it was mentioned how on 1 was able to kill hundreds of men before she was killed.  How many Damane do you think they would leave at the fortress now that they have been picking them up left and right since they made landfall???<br /><br />Next thing, everyone if forgetting that the WC are all cavalry.  They are experienced in moving quickly across vast distances and are not tied down by slower foot soldiers.  It is very likely that they could end up almost anywhere in a short amount of time.  But to make things simple Galad fought and killed (forgot his name), because he raped Morgase.  He also believes her to possibly be alive and out there somewhere.  At the time of the prolouge they are in Altara, I believe, not all that far from Perrin's people and their current situation.  RJ really needs to start tieing up these loose ends or there will never be an end to the series.  Hopefully we will see Galad and Perrin, or better yet Mat and Galad run into each other and start bringing things to a head.


created: 2005-08-04 10:01:51
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />9 days passed before Ituralde's Raids</b>

body:
And Galad's duel.<br /><br />Figure a day or two to assume command and make preparations, then move.<br /><br />It's a fair assumption he's moved at least 150 miles from his starting point.  Bigfgest things slowing him down would be supplies (lack of) and remounts.<br /><br />HOW would he learn of Ituralde before the raids?  By the time the raids occurred, he would be long gone.  Perhaps into Tarabon where he might stumble across Ituralde, my guess is into Amadicia where there is a smaller, achievable target--the prisoners--and then out.<br /><br />1. Is there any evidence the WC prisoners are at the Fortress? Their being used at a construction project{s} of some sort somewhere, I didn't read that it was at the Fortress.  I totally agree that an attack on the Fortress, if well defended, would be a mistake and of no real value.  The prisoners have tremendous emotional significance reinforcing Galad's command authority--and it seems the right thing to do<br /><br />2. The clencher for a move East in my mind is Morgase.  She is the key to a lot of reconciliations.  But this is inyuition on my part, not logic.  These are good theories here, good thinking.


created: 2005-08-04 10:33:41
subject: <b>Just to be clear...</b>
body:
When I said 400 defenders I was refering to the maximum number of defenders that the Fortress could have if Galad had any hope of taking it with a force of 7000; assuming the defenders are behind walls and using damane.


created: 2005-08-08 09:28:03
subject: <b>Re: Galad's next move</b>
body:
I agree that Galad will want to rescue the imprisoned whitecloaks as his sense of honoour will demand that he do this. Another reason for returning to the fortress of light, would be to check for information on what happened to Morgase. Valda before he spilled his guts out said, &quot;the wench was hale the last i saw her&quot; and went on to taunt Galad with comments to the effect that he looked forward to a repeat performance of his assault in the future.<br /><br />Redhanded


created: 2005-10-19 18:05:40
subject: <b>Two armies?</b>
body:
Wasn't there 2 armies of 7000 or so converging on Perrin at the end?  Maybe one of them was Galads WC and the other was Aiel.  In that case Morgase can corral Galad, Berelain can fall in love with him, and Perrin can be finished with Mesama in time to get everyone together and meet at tarwin's gap.  Oh and since the Seanchan are in the bag there never has to be a meeting between WC and the Seanchan.  They will retain the Fortress of Light as the deal between Rand and the Seanchan where the world is divided how the Aelfinn told him it would.<br /><br />Vagabonds make better gleeman and the very best of bards.


created: 2005-11-13 08:52:17
subject: <b>Am just getting back to the theories posts</b>
body:
I must say, you have &quot;once again&quot; hit the nail on the head.  Thank you for the read and the theory.  Will be an &quot;interesting&quot; next book.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-21 01:51:19
subject: <b>what's right is not to get killed</b>
body:
Attacking the Fortress of Light with what he has right now is suicide and Galad knows it. He'll be moving north because that's where TG and possible allies will be. Possibly a stopover at Caemlyn to get a situation update, maybe meet up with Perrin and/or Mat along the way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 08:11:14
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I absolutely agree that a Forsaken (most likely Ishy, maybe Lanfear) sent the dragkhar. <br />Recently I pointed out the same general arguments against a BA as the sender on the WoT Board, namely that a BA has no Forsaken mark to command Shadowspawn, and that normally only Forsaken have access to Shadowspawn.<br /><br />I thought, though, it was possible that Liandrin spied on Moiraine, reported Ishy where she is, and that he then sent the draghkar to the Twins' house.<br /><br />On the other hand, it certainly makes sense that Liandrin was involved in freeing Taim.<br />This was most likely an Ishy/BA plot.  <br />Plus, Liandrin seems to be the most active BA in the books at this time, and we know that she worked closely with Ishy, since she was one of the two AS at the Darkfriend Social in TGH.<br /><br />I hope there will be a Taim PoV in KoD, that would certainly reveal many things.<br /><br />Anyway, thumbs up for me!


created: 2005-07-25 10:53:44
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
You found important information from three different Jordan answers, and pretty much proved that Liandrin did not send the Dragkhar to kiss Moiraine.<br />Very nice theory. Thumbs up!


created: 2005-07-25 11:08:33
subject: <b>Pretty good...</b>
body:
.. but there is one possible problem.<br /> YOU seem to suggest that Liandrin cant get a draghkar to attack, since this requires a Chosen to give the command.<br />Lets look at occasions where a Chosen has wanted someone with useful info did - Herid Fel. SOmeone - probably Moridin in my view - sent a gholam . Thats major resources.<br />Isnt it likely that a Chosen would have sent a few more Draghkar, ore even a fist of Trollocs - easily gated in, and its unlikely 3 Aes Sed and 1 old warder and Lan could survive against overwhelming forces. THen take/burn all the books at the farm.<br />Personally I dont think Liandrin sent the Vamps. More likely it was another BA or maybe Ishamael - the only one of the Chosen who seems capable of subtlety.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 12:44:40
subject: <b>A few responses....</b>
body:
You are right Etzel, I saw your post on the MB and added a short reply the other day. The theory had already been written before that post, and was in fact submitted prior to that time. Simon held off posting this until the prologue discussion died down a little bit.<br /><br />Also, I wasn't suggesting that Liandrin helped free Taim, since she and her cohorts were in Tanchico or enroute at the time. Rather, she possibly helped him elude capture in Saldaea in the first place.<br /><br />To mjasghar: Moiraine ends up being under-estimated time and again. This Draghkar attack seems to be a half-hearted attempt to get rid of her, IMO. Being she was no longer with Rand at the time, might explain this poor effort. We later see Be'lal at least think to take her out of the picture in Tear, but doesn't follow up on it and it cost him dearly. Lanfear dismisses her at the docks with much the same results. Seems the Forsaken have a penchant for thinking little of current-Age AS and their abilities, and don't see them as too much of a threat. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 13:59:56
subject: <b>To Light in the Night</b>
body:
<b> You are right Etzel, I saw your post on the MB and added a short reply the other day. The theory had already been written before that post, and was in fact submitted prior to that time. Simon held off posting this until the prologue discussion died down a little bit. </b><br /><br />Yes, I figured that we simply came to the same conclusion on this matter. <br /><br /><b> Also, I wasn't suggesting that Liandrin helped free Taim, since she and her cohorts were in Tanchico or enroute at the time. Rather, she possibly helped him elude capture in Saldaea in the first place. </b><br /><br />Ah, yes, probably read your theory too fast... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-07-25 15:13:30
subject: <b>BA sister</b>
body:
Isn't the sister who's not dead still under suspiscion of being a BA.  Could she have sent the Draghkar with Forsaken blessing.  Moriane had been there for days and if she contacted Ishy.  I know a lot of if's when should could have killed Moriane with her own hands like her sister.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 15:14:26
subject: <b>I voted No</b>
body:
Although it's a good theory overall and I agree that it's not Liandrin that <b>sent</b> Draghkar, but I don't agree with the following:<br /><blockquote><i>This also makes it highly unlikely Liandrin or Vandene warded the Draghkar either</i></blockquote><br />You've provided a very good evidence that the simle Darkfriend, or even Black Ajah, does not command Shadowspawns. But jumping from that to &quot;highly unlikely&quot;? You have not provided any evidence of the contrary. As far as we know, the ward should be placed right before it was used. Otherwise, Forsaken would simply ward all Shadowspawn and not bother with Aes Sedai ever detecting them. That means, Ishamael must have been searching Moiriane along with Draghkar. Right? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It seems unlikely though. What is likely happen is that Liandrin received orders to kill Moiriane, she was provided a Draghkar to help her. Then she went after Moiraine, located her, warded Draghkar and went her way. That's seems logical to me.


created: 2005-07-25 16:44:50
subject: <b>Commanding armies of shadowspawn is one thing</b>
body:
Threatening or compelling or even bargain with one single Dragkhar is something completely else. I still think it was Liandrin. Good chance she went on to Saldea after that, so the theory is still good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 16:50:27
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
I definitely agree.  I think this is a case where too much has been made of a single line that Anaiya utters.  That seems to happen a lot around here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I also like your line of reasoning about Liandrin assisting Taim.  Joiya may be just using a portion of the truth to throw the girls off, and that might not violate the BA oaths.  The reality is that, while Taim is freed, he never seems to attempt the complicated scheme that Joiya suggests.  He never tries to call himself Rand al'Thor and never tries to raise another army that we know of.  I think it's entirely possible that Joiya is spinning out a plan that failed when Taim was captured.  Adeleas and Vandene indicate that Ispan was able to reveal BA plots that were old and no longer really relevent, after all.  It's even possible that she fabricated the part about helping Taim escape, and coincidentally happened to be correct.<br /><br />If I may, I'll take the liberty of responding to Skeeve.  This is from Asmodean in <i>Birdcalls by Night</i>: &quot;I have never liked Draghkar; we should never have made them.  They have fewer brains than a Trolloc.  Give them an order, and they still sometimes kill whatever is closest.&quot;  Now, lately I've been very hard on others for trusting the words of the Forsaken, but they do provide a unique perspective on Shadowspawn.  This has the ring of simple truth, and I can't see any logical reason for Asmodean to be less than truthful, or for him to be mistaken.  Rather than command the Draghkar to obey Liandrin and let her shield it, something that might not be successful anyway, it seems to me a Forsaken would be just as likely to command it directly and shield the thing him/herself.<br /><br />Thanks for a great read, John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  You have just motivated me to finish my own theory that I've been working on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 17:00:18
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
As usual , a great theory.<br /><br />However , I have a serious problem with some of the conclusions. The QoTW clearly states the following ...<br /><br /><i>Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning <b>they had to negotiate with them</b>. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.</i><br /><br />There is no reason why Liandrin couldn't negotiate with the Draghkar , or at least with a Fade who would send a Draghkar. We already know that the DF's sometimes come into contact with the Shadowspawn.<br /><br />I would imagine that Liandrin , being one of the higher ranked Dreadlords , and a channeler to boot , would be pursuasive when negotiating with a Myrddraal.<br /><br />As an aside , I believe it was a Forsaken who sent the Draghkar , although I lean more towards Be'lal. Alviarin was snatched away by him in the night , and it was here , I believe , that she revealed the dangers of Moiraine and possibly Siuan. Be'lal has been far more active in trying to kill Moiraine ... the darkhounds , the hedgehog.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 18:13:21
subject: <b>Reply to Diomedes</b>
body:
Yes, I remember that quote from Asmodean, but I don't think it discards the possibility that Liandrin was the one who warded Draghkar. It merely suggests that it's difficult to deal with them. They are stupid, in other words. If that was a Forsaken who warded Draghkar then why he didn't kill Moiriane himself? If it was male Forsaken that's even easy. Go near the house and evaporate it. Nobody would have time to react. And it seems it was the male - all female were busy with other stuff.<br /><br />Another words, I don't see any reason for Forsaken to ward Draghkar - that requires him to be near the house, but he could have done killing himself! On the other hand, there is perfect reason for BA sister to be that person, because Moiraine was one of the most powerful AS in the Tower and having Draghkar would be an advantage.


created: 2005-07-25 21:04:52
subject: <b>Re: Skeeve the Great</b>
body:
I guess you and I just seem to disagree about a few things, apparently. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> My line of thinking is that since a Forsaken apparently <i>sent</i> the Draghkar, it was a logical step to <i>assume</i> they would have also taken the short amount of time to ward it while they were at it as well. It doesn't seem logical to me to have someone else do the warding later, while they are right there giving the command.<br /><br />This is from another QotW:<br /><b>&quot;Can a weave be moved or otherwise affected by external non-Power related forces? For example, can a non-channeler take a sword of Air and use it for battle? Or can a shield of Air be moved by the wind? Or can a natural event disturb a weave without affecting the channeler?&quot;</b><br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br /><b>&quot;The first example given has to be treated separately, I think. A sword woven of Air&#8212;or Fire or any other of the Five Powers&#8212;could be wielded by a non-channeler if the weave had been tied off or the channeler maintained it.&quot;</b><br /><br />(Unfortunately there was a better response to a similar question dealing with tied-off weaves, but I cannot find it in the archives since they changed the page format. Essentially it dealt with how long a tied0off weave would last, and the answer was indefinitely, unless it was specifically designed to unravel by the one weaving it.) However, this blurb will help to suffice to your reply.<br /><br />In essence, a ward is no more than a tied-off weave to protect or warn against something. We have seen many such examples. Rand weaving wards around Callandor, his dreams, the Aiel encampment, the Waygate at SL, etc. Sammael wove wards arounf Illian, as did Rahvin around Caemlyn. <br /><br />In none of these instances did the ward have to be placed only immediately beforehand. (Sammael specifically had his in place long before Rand and his army arrived, so was the ward around the Waygate, and it still killed the Trollocs like it was designed to do.) So long as the wards are in place and tied-off, they are viable. If you can find me a &quot;for instance&quot; as an example of what you suggest, I will acquiesce and concede this point.<br /><br />And what Diomedes was suggesting was that the Draghkar might have been just as likely to turn on, and kill Liandrin as to allow her to ward it, I believe.<br /><br />To Death Dealer and Maginor: The small problem arises of Liandrin or Vandene having access to Shadowspawn in the first place. They appear to normally reside in the Blight as far as we know, so getting their hands on one to control/negotiate with, becomes rather problematic. I haven't seen anything to suggest that any of the BA have a reliable means of communication with anyone that would send them the Shadowspawn they wanted. While T'A'R might be used by the Forsaken, it is at their discretion, with them making the contact and issuing commands, e.g. Ishy.<br /><br />To Diomedes: Thanks for the input, and I also feel that Joiya was able to reveal what she did because it was an old plot. Too much of what she said just never came to pass to match up with her description of &quot;Liandrin's&quot; plan.<br /><br />To sidious: Thank you, I'm glad you liked it. This part: <b>&quot;Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.&quot;</b> confirms that Ishamael was the instigator of the Trolloc Wars. And this part: &quot;<b>First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves &quot;the Chosen,&quot; like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however.&quot;</b> seems to imply that these were high ranking Dreadlords that had quite a bit of say-so. It might be suggested that Ishamael himself, as a Forsaken, granted this prestige to these Dreadlords, knowing he would not be around to see the Trolloc Wars through to the end. Even with this added authority and responsibility though, regardless of where it originated, they still had to negotiate with the Myrddraal. <br /><br />I guess my point is that we haven't seen this type of added influence awarded to any BA that we are aware of. The members of the BA may or may not become Dreadlords, but I don't think we can say they have attained this status as yet. Once Moridin rounds them up into a fighting force, then will be the time, IMHO.<br /><br />*side note* There was something else I didn't elaborate on becasue it didn't really concern this theory, but part of Liandrin's orders had been to locate the three boys and remove them secretly from Fal Dara. (LoC, The Shadow in Shienar.) These orders almost assuredly came from Ishy, so why the big jail break and the theft of the Horn that caused the added confusion and chaos? This seems to conflict directly with removing the boys in secrecy, while blatantly producing an uproar of this magnitude. I think it speaks for outside involvement by another Forsaken. Thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-26 03:07:54
subject: <b>2 LitN</b>
body:
Here is the thing - if Forsaken can do what you suggested, why not all Shadowspawn are warded permanently? If what you say is true - then it's only logical that all Shadowspawn receive some kind of &quot;ward&quot; one time and not bothering about been detected at all. But we don't see such things, don't we? <br />What you are saying is kinda putting Forsaken in very-very stupid position - apparently they are able to &quot;ward&quot; all their Shadowspawn from been detected, which gives them considerable advantage, but they don't do, because....?


created: 2005-07-26 10:32:08
subject: <b>Skeeve:</b>
body:
I'm not the one writing the books, so I will not attempt to cover RJ's butt on this issue. I will only give you my opinion, since there is no explanation I know of that RJ has provided.<br /><br />In this Age, only about 1% of the population can learn to touch the True Source which gives them the ability to sense Shadowspawn. Not all of this 1% actually learns. When the series began, there were approximately 1,000 Aes Sedai in the WT, so this number and their Warders, represented <i>all</i> the people in the Westlands that could sense the evil in these creatures. It could very well be for this small number of people that the Forsaken don't bother with warding. If a sufficient force of Shadowspawn are sent to carry out an objective, then warding them serves no real purpose. Afterall, the sense of evil can only be felt when they are nearby; it's not like long-range radar giving them ample warning to set up elaborate defenses. And the Forsaken have constantly held present-day AS in contempt as untrained children, so normally they don't see them as a very real threat anyway. <br /><br />Now, if you want a few examples of stupidity, I can provide some. Sammael sent the Trollocs and Myrddraal to the Stone to attack Rand. He didn't bother to ward them. Rand was busy with Lanfear at the time, so this simple distraction kept him from sensing them. Rahvin sent the Darkhounds after Rand in Rhuidean. Again, a pre-planned attack against a known channeler, and the Forsaken didn't bother warding them. (If I'm not mistaken, Rand even has a pov about this very fact later, wondering why he didn't.) Again and again on the trips across the Waste, Shadowspawn are sent by the Forsaken, and never do they ward the creatures that I can recall. Even at that though, Rand doesn't sense one Draghkar that nearly gets him, which Aviendha puts up in flames practically on his back. So, as I said, a little distraction sometimes is all that is needed to not feel some of these creatures.<br /><br />These examples all represent planned attacks, with forethought involved, with a Forsaken issuing the command. So a Forsaken must have been present to order them, meaning they could have warded them if they desired, just prior to sending them. Certainly some of these attacks were designed to goad Rand, others perhaps to test his ability or defenses. Still, in any of these instances, the Shadowspawn could have been warded but weren't. Are the Forsaken stupid or is RJ just giving the good guys a chance to defend themselves with a little advance warning? <br /><br />We know the warding can be done, so why haven't the Forsaken utilized it more often? I can't answer that, but if they had, Rand would likely be dead by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 11:43:09
subject: <b>Nice theory....</b>
body:
I think that the draghkar will be an unknown until RJ reveals it - it would make a good question to be posed. I still see Liandrin as the most likely culprit here, but we just don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is a combination. Ishy commands Liandrin to 'remove Moiraine' on her way to Saldea. Liandrin uses the authority inhearent in Ishy's order and sends teh draghkar.<br /><br />I like the part about Liandrin's involvement with Taim. I think you got this right. I hope we get further details of this in time. A small addition to your intro - I believe that Moiraine was eavesdropping on Liandrin's interrogation of Aglemar's daughter. I don't recall the exact quotes of it, but the evidence is pretty clear.<br /><br />That bit at the end about Slayer confused me. I think it most likely that Slayer did have comand of the shadowspawn in the Two Rivers, though the scope of the command changed with Perrin's arrival. It's interesting that Slayer didn't just kill Perrin sometime while he slept - I suppose there is a bit of duex ex machina in there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-07-30 11:58:14
subject: <b>Warding</b>
body:
Lanfear said that Asmodean sent the one attack of Draghkars in the Waste. When Aviendha killed that Draghkar standing right behind Rand , he admitted not being able to sense its evil. Considering Aviendha was also snared by a Draghkar in the same attack , I think it fair to assume that the Draghkar were all warded in that attack , but perhaps not the other Shadowspawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-30 14:55:18
subject: <b>Re: sidious</b>
body:
You are probably right, sidious. Especially considering that Rand felt the Draghkar that killed Seana and Chion at Cold Rocks Hold, from inside his bedchamber while talking to Aviendha. <br /><br />So he was somewhat distracted, and farther away from the Draghkar in that incident as opposed to the other two later. This would also suggest that under normal circumstances, Draghkar do emit the sense of evil as strongly as say Trollocs, and not a weak, almost unnoticeable feeling like Gray Men. <br /><br />Thanks for pointing that out, as it does suggest that some of the Fosaken at least, have thought of Warding Shadowspawn for these various attacks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-30 20:09:22
subject: <b>warding also</b>
body:
would it be possible to have that many wards, all doing the same thing close to each other? or were you imagining, like, one big ward on the whole...fist?<br /><br />i'm not sure, but<br /><br />1. do they have the strength?<br />2. would it be deemed necessary, trollocs are kind of hard to miss, they're smelly, big and loud, would a ward that just made them unsense-able be reasonable?<br />3. is it possible?<br /><br />i think 2 and 3 are the ones to think about, certainly no.3 if it's not possible it clears up the forsaken stupidity<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-31 01:38:14
subject: <b>I agree with you too, Foxhead</b>
body:
The time it would take to ward each individual Trolloc would be a wasted effort, since they travel in large bands or Fists to accomplish their tasks. I don't believe you could realistically do it any other way, like as a group. It would seem that would require them to all stay close to each other to maintain it.<br /><br />Draghkar are a different story. They rely on stealth, not over-powering someone, so a ward makes much more sense in their case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 10:47:07
subject: <b>About the warding on the Draghkar ...</b>
body:
Although it's not 100% certain, I got the impression that Moiraine was able to sense the warding on the Draghkar, after it was killed.  In which case, it was warded by a woman.<br /><br />She assumes it was Black Ajah, but could be mistaken.<br /><br />Interestingly, in the previous chapter Lanfear/Selene leaves Rand at the Nine Rings Inn, saying:<br /><br /><i>I must leave you for a time.</i><br /><br />She goes on to explain why (too many people there, and she doesn't like Caldevwin), but that could have been an excuse.  Perhaps the real purpose was to check up on what Moiriane was doing, and send/ward the Draghkar?<br /><br />I realize this is total speculation, but the fact that she leaves Rand just before Moiraine's scene is suspicious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 11:23:46
subject: <b>Maybe more than a coincidence, Shiska....</b>
body:
According to Tellings of the Wheel Chronology, the night they spend at the Nine Rings is the same night Moiraine is attacked by the Draghkar. Selene went upstairs earlier than the others, and left sometime in the night, so what you suggest is entirely possible.<br /><br />Nice catch, BTW!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-15 13:18:57
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
I know this discussion died a while ago, but here's a thought:  In tGH, Watchers, Moiraine had just had a conversation with Vandene and left for the gardens with this thought: &quot;There was something in what Vandene had said that tugged at her mind, but she could not remember what it was.  An answer, or a hint to an answer, for a question she had not asked--but she could not bring the question to mind, either.&quot;  Then we read a description of the garden and Moiraine thinks: &quot;What was the answer, and what was the question?&quot;  Then the Draghkar lands on the path: &quot;Sand crunched behind her...&quot;.<br /><br />Moiraine was deep in thought when she was taken by surprise.  The warders were both concentrating on practicing the sword.  The sisters were both inside, doing who knows what.  Draghkar can fly which makes them swift and silent.  If they have a target and they fly directly there,they could possibly come close quickly enough that Aes Sedai/Warders might not sense their evil until it's too late... especially with their minds on other things.<br /><br />Just because Moiraine said it was warded does not make it so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 10:56:49
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
RJ said that he will reveal the killer of Adeleas &amp; Ispan in KoD.<br /><br />If I recall correctly, DomA pointed out in the past, that if Sareitha is the killer, likely her Warder Ned Yarman was also involved in the murder, considering that a stake was driven through Ispan's chest which requires some strength. Thus he would be a DF as well. <br />I agree with that thought.<br /><br />BTW, I wonder if this link against one's will is also connected to the turning of a channeler to the Shadow by using 13 BA and 13 Myrddraal.


created: 2005-07-28 13:14:09
subject: <b>Is she lying....?</b>
body:
or just telling the simple truth as she knows it?<br />Your quote:<br /><b>&quot;...that one woman cannot form a link with another against her will.&quot;</b><br /><br />Here's what it says in the glossary of ACoS:<br /><b>&quot;Entering a link is normally a voluntary act, requiring at least acquiesence, but under certain circumstances, a sufficient circle already formed can bring another woman forcibly into the circle as long as no man is a part of it. Insofar as is known, a man cannot be forced into a circle, no matter how large.&quot;</b><br /><br />Sareitha said &quot;one woman&quot; cannot force another into a link, and the glossary bears this out by stating it takes a &quot;sufficient circle&quot; to force someone into this involuntarily. This makes sense to me simply because we could have seen a very powerful channeler like Lanfear force someone weaker into a link to give herself an advantage over her male counterparts. <br /><br />Sareitha didn't necessarily lie. It could be that those records simply didn't include the information about a circle being capable of forcing someone into a link, and she doesn't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 15:26:41
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Some good points. It was definitely Sareitha , though - but based on other evidence.<br /><br />I also noticed that quote immediately. However , I just don't buy it. As Light said , this forcing can only occur in circles without men - which immediately limits the circle to thirteen.<br /><br />However , despite all the circles we have seen there has never been the slightest evidence that channelers can be forced into a circle. <br /><br />What does that quote in KoD mean anyway? Who are they forcing into circles? Surely they don't need to force their own BA members into the circles , and you certainly don't need a circle to torture someone. All I can think of is that they bring two enemy sisters before them , and then forcibly link with the one and use her strength to torture her friend.<br /><br />The situation seems stupid , and not plausible. But yes , it was Sareitha , IMO , because she had errands in the city and at the same time we saw Lady Shiane and Faolain present in the city.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 16:58:19
subject: <b>I agree with the conclusions of the theory</b>
body:
<b>If I recall correctly, DomA pointed out in the past, that if Sareitha is the killer, likely her Warder Ned Yarman</b><br /><br />Eh, hello Etzel! You have a good memory as it's really been a long time (I've been away from the net for a while - long story <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Now I'll be back around gradually - ain't got as much time as I'd like)<br /><br />I haven't read the prologue yet but I certainly hold to that opinion, that the murders involved two people, one of them a man, and that the culprits are Sareitha and Ned Yarman.<br /><br />In short I toy with the idea that Sareitha took care of Adeleas while Ned was keeping watch for Vandene in case whatever she did to the link or whatever she did to Adeleas woke Vandene, and afterward they questionned, tortured Ispan - and when Sareitha was satisfied she ordered Ned to kill her. <br /><br /><br />It was difficult for Sareitha to act alone because that wasn't exactly a quickie.  She spent a lot of time there, she needed a sentry/helper.<br /> <br />Even if Sareitha actually used the OP to drive the stake through Ispan's heart (leaving residues) I believe Ned was there too.  However, driving a stake through someone's heart just doesn't strike me a method typical of a female killer, not even an average BA.<br /><br />I agree with LitN above that this new clue isn't conclusive, but I agree with Cannoli that this is one more element pointing strongly to Sareitha being the BA in the palace.  We would lose in a courtroom, but we are talking about a minor thread in a work of fiction and I think Elayne's remark is quite relevant now - especially since Moridin also mentions &quot;involuntary links&quot; at that point of the story.<br /><br />Most of us thought at the time that he was referring to the a'dam (and they are probably based on the same way of involuntary linking the BA uses, a way perhaps devised by the woman who made the first a'dam - that would explain why the Tower have no record of this discovery and the BA learning it from someone Ishamael brought to them from Seanchan) but now that we learn for sure that the BA can do it it's highly suspicious that Moridin mentions this at the point he did.  That would be typical Jordan to plant a clue we can't understand yet.<br /><br />As for what puzzled Elayne I'm not too sure and I don't have the word for word quote from Sareitha at hand, but I  suspect that Elayne thought about the a'dam and how in theory it should be possible to force a woman into a link, whatever the records say.  Ter'angreal were a big thing on her mind during that time.  She may not have connected all the dots but something obviously tickled her memory.<br /><br />The slight change of infliction might denote that Sareitha does indeed know more than what &quot;The Tower&quot; knows.<br /><br />The final answer is only months away <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 19:08:45
subject: <b>damane?</b>
body:
I can't remember the details off the top of my head, but doesn't the a'dam create a circle of sorts? Doesn't that show evidence of being able to force someone into a circle? But then there's the male version of the a'dam. If males cannot be forced then how does that work?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 19:15:02
subject: <b>Wow! I think I just spotted another ghost....</b>
body:
Nice to see you around again, Dominic! <br /><br />I'm not here to argue Sareitha's guilt or innocence, but just to add a little more to the debate. And it might help to look at the whole of the conversation, instead of just parts, so I will provide it here:<br /><br />&quot;It doesn't work that way, Renaile.&quot; Sareitha touched Garenia, and she and Kirstian leaped apart to make room. The young Brown eyed Nynaeve uncertainly, then folded her hands and took on a lecturing tone, as if addressig a class. With it came composure; perhaps she did see Renaile as a pupil right then. &quot;The Tower studied this for many years, long before the Trolloc Wars. I have read every page that survives in the Tower Library of those studies. It was proven conclusively that one woman cannot form a link with another against her will. It simply cannot be done; nothing happens. A willing surrender is necessary, just as in embracing <i>saidar</i> itself.&quot; She sounded absolutely definite, but Renaile still frowned; too many people knew how Aes Sedai could side-step the Oath against lying.<br /><br />&quot;And why did they study it?&quot; Renaile demanded &quot;Why was the White Tower so interested in such a thing? Perhaps you Aes Sedai still study?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;That is ridiculous.&quot; Exasperation dripped from Sareitha's voice. &quot;If you must know, it was the problem of men who can channel that drew them to it. The Breaking of the World was a living memory to some, then. I don't suppose even very many sisters remember - it hasn't been required instruction since before the Trolloc Wars - but men can be brought into a circle, too, and as the circle doesn't break even if you go to sleep... Well, you can see the advantages. That was an utter failure, unfortunately. More to the point here, I say again that it is impossible to force a woman into a circle. If you doubt, try it yourself.&quot;<br /><br />Renaile nodded, accepting at last; there was very little else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet Elayne wondered. What was it that had <i>not</i> survived? She had noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point. She had questions. For later, when there were fewer ears around.<br /><br />Now, you can look at it from whatever angle suits you, but, notice at the end of Sareitha's first statement, that Elayne thinks: <b>she sounded absolutely definite.</b> <br /><br />So, to me at least, the inflection Elayne mentions later, did not occur in that paragraph. <br /><br />Elayne already knew that men could be included in circles, because she and Nynaeve used that ploy to search for the Bowl in the first place, intimating to Sheriam that it would require a man in the circle to use it once they found it. So maybe we can eliminate a few possibilities that would catch Elayne's noticing a change in Sareitha's voice. That would leave us with: &quot;that the circle doesn't break when you go to sleep&quot;, or &quot;the utter failure of using men in a circle&quot;, or Sareitha's very last statement when she says: &quot;I say again, that it is impossible to force a woman into a circle. If you doubt, try it yourself.&quot;<br /><br />Notice that in this last statement she does not use the &quot;one woman&quot; qualifier that she used in the first paragraph. Certainly Sareitha backers should jump on this as justification for her guilt.<br /><br />Now, the real problem I have with that is that BA are free from the Oaths, so they have to be <i>very</i> careful about lying in the presence of anyone. If Sareitha lied here, it is a very big lie, and she should know better than to do something like that in the presence of other AS that aren't BA, or where a statement of hers might be called into question by anyone.<br /><br />I tend to think she didn't lie. But, something she said was not the whole story, and this is the reason for the inflection.<br /><br />BTW, nice to see you back DomA. Hope to have you help hold up our side in the internet hunt! <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-28 19:15:11
subject: <b>About the forced circles...</b>
body:
&lt;QUOTE&gt;However , despite all the circles we have seen there has never been the slightest evidence that channelers can be forced into a circle. &lt;/QUOTE&gt;<br /><br />There has been a great deal of evidence, including the word of a Black sister who has sworn obedience and the first Oath again.  What there has never been is an example of it occurring in the text.  So I guess that means it is impossible to make sa'angreal or for men &amp; women to form a cricle larger than thirteen.  We have never seen either of those done in the story either.<br /><br />&lt;QUOTE&gt;What does that quote in KoD mean anyway? Who are they forcing into circles? Surely they don't need to force their own BA members into the circles , and you certainly don't need a circle to torture someone. All I can think of is that they bring two enemy sisters before them , and then forcibly link with the one and use her strength to torture her friend. &lt;/QUOTE&gt;<br /><br />You're assuming the Black Ajah is some happy hand-holding love fest.  And when they have reason to suspect their sisters have lied to them, or are witholding information, of course they're going to torture them!  Also, they question other sisters frequently too, including Tamra Ospenya, and Alviarin seems to have been planning to have the same thing done to Yukiri &amp; Doesine.  I can't recall right now if I included it in the final draft of my theory, but I did note in the writing of it that since you can tell what someone is feeling through a link, it makes a potentially useful lie detector.  Also, the a'dam is based on the principles of linking, according to Elayne, and since she made one, we have to assume she knows what she is talking about.  The a'dam can be used to draw on another's strength involuntarily, and can be used to tell what she is feeling and to give pain.  That gives us at least a basis for supposing the pain part is possible as well.<br /><br />&lt;QUOTE&gt; The situation seems stupid , and not plausible. But yes , it was Sareitha , IMO , because she had errands in the city and at the same time we saw Lady Shiane and Falion present in the city.&lt;/QUOTE&gt;<br /><br />Au contraire.  It is highly plausible.  If anything, the Black Ajah is even less trusting of its own members, as is only common sense (they <i>know</i> their members are conniving opportunists who are willing to betray others to get ahead - have we seen ONE Black Ajah member who <i>didn't</i> try to ingratiate herself with her captors upon discovery?  Has just one of them stuck to her guns and taken one for the team?  From the Black Ajah's PoV, a &quot;good&quot; Aes Sedai might be trustworthy and honorable, but no Black Sister is)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-29 18:00:35
subject: <b>The usefulness of forcing someone into a circle</b>
body:
I agree with Cannoli on this, some of the advantages of this secret trick are obvious and I'm sure there's more we don't see yet.<br /><br />In theory, it could well form an unbreakable &quot;shield&quot; as it should be impossible for a captured woman to leave the circle, much like an a'dam or a normal link, and the captors' leader not only could still channel - not everyone is skilled or strong enough to shield someone and weave much else -  but she would be even more powerful than usual, sometimes way more powerful.<br /><br />I think we probably know now a bit more of how Tamra Ospenya was dealt with and questionned during the night by a group of BA including Galina and that Yellow...<br /><br />An advantage over shielding is that involuntary linking would not leave residues whereas a shield might - you might not even need to channel to do it. That's extremely convenient when you want to question and murder someone like an Amyrlin Seat within the White Tower where any sister with the talent to read residues might show up unexpectedly on the crime scene shortly after.<br /><br /><b>That gives us at least a basis for supposing the pain part is possible as well.</b><br /><br />Certainly a possibility, in fact I believe it's likely that many features of the a'dam are also possible with involuntary links.  An again, pain inflicted via an a'dam doesn't leave any traces.  That's a huge advantage if you have to torture someone and later make it appear that she died in her sleep...  You know those Yellows are going to take a OP peek at the body to determine the cause of death - for an Amyrlin Seat at least.  Now I wonder a lot if you can kill someone using a a'dam (bring her to the point her heart gives up, for instance) - I don't remember if we already know the answer to this, though I vaguely remember that a damane inflicting pain to her sul'dam could eventually kill herself from the pain.<br /><br /><br />I'm not convinced at all that this is related in any way to the circles that can turn someone to the shadow as some mention, for several reasons.  The main reason is that Semirhage supposedly developped this method with a circle and 13 Myddraal during the WoP and the AoL didn't know unvoluntary rings, dixit Moridin.  The other one is that the method, obviously (Be'lal's plan), works on males whereas the BA linking apparently doesn't, as I understand (???). Finally, this method is described somewhere as 13 women in a ring channeling through 13 Myrdraal as some sort of filter.  Nowhere does it allude to the possibility the victim is part of this ring and the number given is thirteen, not 12.  In theory, without a man involved it's actually impossible that a 14th woman could be included.<br /><br />You can see why the early WT researched involuntary links; capturing men within circles would have been most helpful for safety, research and assessing how far the taint affected his brain yet - plus the advantage of using saidin for tasks as the AoLers were used to.  Presumably the &quot;male a'dam&quot; derives from similar/related researching.  Elayne knows about it, what it does and how similar/dissimilar it is to an a'dam.  Maybe that's something about this that tickled her memory in Sareitha's statements? <br /><br />That the BA doesn't trust its own members and would wish to make a demonstration of strength and esoteric knowledge - leaving the recruit guessing what else they know - is also a very valid point.<br /><br />We can infer that there is some sort of ceremony taking place since the Oaths are removed and replaced.  IMHO that's the perfect time for the BA (presumably the hooded Supreme Council or at least a delegation) to force a new recruit into a circle and show her exactly what sort of organization she is about to pledge herself to...<br /><br /><br />One more thing... I always wondered how Sareitha dealt with the link between Vandene and Adeleas.  Could have it involve esoteric BA knowledge about linking? Is that why Jordan said he didn't give us enough to solve the murder before KOD?  That Vandene apparently didn't feel anything worng is a big point to some people, making her the prime suspect, though I don't buy it myself.  Maybe the BA simply convinced Adeleas to take a rest and drink tea while she entered the link and took over for a short time and Vandene would never know(unlikely Adeleas would agree, I know).<br /><br />It's quite possible that the crux of the murder turns around linking. The Vandene-did-it supporters find it strange that she didn't wake up and noticed nothing wrong. But do we really know she noticed nothing wrong about the link and the fact she didn't wake up - that she didn't wonder about the way she &quot;lost&quot; the link without notice?  Truth is, we don't.  Vandene jumped to the conclusion quickly that one with them was BA and the murderer (the sweet tea, etc.).  It goes without saying that Vandene wouldn't pipe a word about any evidence she has that could lead to the culprit.<br /><br />Obviously Vandene has to be ultra careful in her conversations - it would be easy to raise suspicions.<br /><br />Maybe Vandene will confide what she found and Elayne will remember the circle and Sareitha.<br /><br /><b>I tend to think she didn't lie. But, something she said was not the whole story, and this is the reason for the inflection.</b><br /><br />I agree.  I don't think she would lie as such, but she told the truth from the WT POV and would make abstraction of her BA knowledge as if it didn't exist.  As you say, it's too big a lie to risk it, so she probably did research the actual subject (she's a Brown after all) and thus she is well aware of all the non-BA knowledge on the subject (or lack thereof), but perhaps her interest was triggered at first by learning the BA technique when she joined in. She looked what else she could find and found those studies with their wrong conclusions.<br /><br />I also agree the change of inflection probably came toward the end, after &quot;she sounded absolutely definite&quot; - the last sentence would be a good guess.  However, if I had to make a guess, I would say the slight change of inflection came during &quot;It can not be done; nothing happens.&quot;  I think she may have betrayed herself there, at least to a trained ear like Elayne's. If not, then it may have been during the first part after all, when she talks about surviving pages.  It's always hard to tell, but if we look at the way Elayne chained her thoughts it might be interpreted that what she thought about the studies' sentences, &quot;change of inflection&quot; included :<br /><br />&quot;there was very little else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet Elayne wondered. What was it that had not survived? She had noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point. She had questions. For later, when there were fewer ears around.<br /><br />A rather straighforward way to interpret the sentence is that &quot;What was it that had not survived?&quot; was triggered by the change of inflection and the questions will be related to this matter as well.  What was it that Sareitha didn't say about the studies that triggered Elayne's interest?  <br /><br /><br />Not that she suspects a lie from Sareitha, obviously - more likely she saw a potential evasion or even ellipse she intended to question her further about.  So I think Elayne wanted to question Sareitha to get from her more details about the studies themselves, what survived and what is actually guessed from missing pages, etc.  Jordan likes to mix things up a lot.  I would not be too surprised if it is both a very obscure clue to Sareitha's guilt (change of inflection, etc. to attract our notice and link Sareitha and involuntary linking in the minds of the more observing, like Cannoli) but that Elayne's focus is on something else altogether and is linked to Rand and circles and male a'dam - not at all to involuntary links.  Elayne wanted to know more details from Sareitha about those studies involving men and linking, if you wish, perhaps in relation to the male a'dam. Too bad she dropped the matter!<br /><br /><br /><b>BTW, nice to see you back DomA. Hope to have you help hold up our side in the internet hunt!</b> <br /><br />Hello!  It's nice to see the familiar people are still around - I missed the people and discussions. place! A lot of catching up to do.  Hope I get enough free time to go the Wot Board soon.<br /><br />Alas, I won't be able to participate in the TOR hunt because I'm Canadian but not from the right province (it's not legal to organize promotions like this here unless it's also open to French speakers. Grr...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-07-30 20:14:57
subject: <b>Adealas Killer?</b>
body:
I think this evidence supports the fact that Saretia is probably the black ajah in the palace, but I don't think it necessarily means that she is the one who killed Adealas.  I think there is a chance it could have been someone else entirely.  We've seen it too many times, a main character's thoughts about something they are completely sure of (IE: the killer had to be one of the Aes Sedai) only to be proven wrong later.  So I think all this shows us is that she may be black, but not the murderer in this case.  Sorry I can't post more definate response, but I am in a hurry.


created: 2005-07-31 17:13:22
subject: <b>I think Vandene is an equal possibility...</b>
body:
I offered this theory on the assumption that one of the three suspects in the case is in fact the killer, but I don't understand why Vandene was automatically eliminated as a suspect.  Relatives are always the first ones the police check out.<br />The thing I alwys found odd was that Vandene took Nynaeve &amp; Elayne into her confidence right away.  Imagine you're an ordinary, non-evil, Aes Sedai who only met Nynaeve &amp; Elayne in Salidar right before coming to Ebou Dar.  Here are two women who have suddenly poured out a wealth of knowledge lost since the AoL, have shot through the training process faster than anyone in history, and do things their own way with scant regard for Aes Sedai rules, customs or history.  They have several highly suspect acquaintances.  These should be the primary suspects, from the PoV of Vandene.  Nynaeve is the only one who admits knowledge of Crimsonthorn!  On the other hand, if Vandene is Black Ajah, she knows they didn't do it, might be aware that they have done more damage to the Black Ajah than anyone associated with Salidar, and as she saw at the Kin's farm, they have few scruples about methods of interogating Darkfriends, and Tower Law is unlikely to hold them too much.  From a Black Ajah PoV, they are her most dangerous foes, and taking them into her &quot;confidence&quot; keeps them from suspecting her.  Of the two potential Vandenes, innocent-Vandene &amp; evil-Vandene, evil Vandene has the most and best motives for confiding in Nynaeve &amp; Elayne, while innocent Vandene should be plausibly suspecting them. <br />Assuming the girls know something we don't, though, I have to say with the KoD info, Sareitha is the best suspect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 10:07:00
subject: <b>Don't think it's very likely that Vandene is BA.</b>
body:
Before TGH, Vandene and Adeleas were in retirement from the White Tower since around seventy years, IIRC.<br />I don't see what interest the Black Ajah could have to send one of its members into retirement. It's a waste.<br />Also Vandene's heart members couldn't easily contact her.<br /><br />Plus, after the draghkar attack in TGH, Moiraine mentions the Black Ajah in the presence of Adeleas &amp; Vandene.<br />This is of course very unusual among Aes Sedai.  <br />I think this shows that they had a close relationship. Moiraine, who normally trusts almost no other sister, had certainly good reasons if she trusts the twins. <br />Therefore I also doubt that Vandene could be BA.


created: 2005-08-02 14:30:37
subject: <b>I agree with Etzel</b>
body:
Personally I ruled out Vandene by CoT firstly because I buy the various manifestations of her grief as witnessed by the girls, from losing weight to adopting some of her sister's habits (not really strange in the circumstances for a twin), and I think her dedication to find the killer is genuine as well. The girls might be deceived by a clever (and let's be honest, very elaborate) act, but I don't think it's the case here.<br /><br />Vandene played her cards strangely if she killed her sister the way it happened, and still follow a weird strategy. While I could see some advantage in spreading suspicion among the AS group (and she kept it to Elayne/Nynaeve as it is), it would have been more convenient for her to deflect suspicion from Aes Sedai altogether to protect her own very favorable position near Elayne, spread suspicion to include the Kin, Sea Folk or even better, outside DFs. I just don't see the point of narrowing it down to 6 people, let alone let Elayne and Nynaeve know that there is a Black among them. That is really shortsighted. Using the sweetened tea is kind of an indication that the killer had no choice but to take this sort of risk to get close enough to Ispan (as I'm quite convinced that Adeleas is a &quot;road kill&quot; ) and that time was short or the orders from above pressing. The murder probably have the marks of someone who jumped on the first opportunity, not of someone who could pick the most favorable moment.<br /><br />Vandene's warder was involved in saving Moiraine's life from a Draghkar too.  That's a bit of a stretch for a DF in the circumstances (especially if his Aes Sedai warded the nasty - as some theorized - they really organized this clumsily if that is so), and I don't think Vandene could have hidden the murder and keep her act for Jaem's sake that long if she did kill the women in his back. He at least would suspect something is wrong if he isn't a DF.<br /><br />Also, if someone high in the Shadow cared enough to send a Draghkar to kill Moiraine, that's weird that the Black Namelle just let her go when it failed. Typically she would trie to cover her mistake, or if she wasn't involved she would have tried to take advantage somehow - by having Moiraine and Lan followed for instance.<br /><br /> Weird is also is the fact that the letters left in their care by Moiraine did reach the White Tower.<br /><br />As Etzel said long retired sisters make the most unlikely BA candidates, IMHO.  Why would Alviarin (or in their case probably Jarna or even her predecessor) allow two worthy members to go end their lives peacefully in the middle of nowhere and write an History, when they are among the oldest in the Tower and are in the part of their lives where they could be most influential and well-placed in the hierarchy to serve the BA (Sitters, AH, member of various councils, confident to younger sisters Anayia-style or close to very old and more powerful ones)? Eyes and Ears in Arafel? The BA doesn't need sisters for that. A &quot;safe house&quot; for Black Sisters?  Nah... I don't buy it - and it would mean both sisters are BA - which is unlikely considering what happened.  I definitely think that Adeleas or Vandene, if they were BA, would have been asked to serve until death in the Tower. You just don't &quot;retire&quot; from the Shadow, IMO.  Furthermore, the BA are all ambitious and full of suspicion for each others.  I would find it atypical for a Black sister to desire to leave the Tower arena for retirement.  It's ain't by retiring to a flyspeck village that you'll reap the reward of immortality.<br /><br />Finally, there is the matter that Marillin was aware that a fellow Black was in the palace.  Based on Moiraine's comments that few even remember the Namelles I find it doubtful that Marillin would even know that one or both the Namelle is BA.  It's easier to believe that an active sister could belong to Marillin's heart or be her fourth (I say Marillin's because it's easier this way to explain why Falion and Ispan didn't make better use of the BA with the girls in Ebou Dar if they simply didn't know there was one).<br /><br />I see your point that Vandene apparently ruled out Nynaeve and Elayne as suspects quite fast and this would serve her purpose if she were the one guilty of killing Adeleas.  It's true, but it's also the case if she does suspect them and don't want them to see her coming down on them.<br /><br />It's hard to be certain she ruled them out for good. One reason is that we see the events unfold mostly from Elayne's POV and she is the leader of this AS group and has been involved with the murder since the beginning.  If Vandene suspects her or Nynaeve, her strategy to uncover them as murderers might include confiding in them and mislead them by repeating that she narrowed it down to three suspects, not five... or two.. and wait for a mistep.  Much better for her to ingratiate herself with Elayne and pretend to trust them.  If Vandene fears that Elayne and Nynaeve are DFs, she is dealing with an extremely delicate and even explosive situation, with their personal links to the Amyrlin Seat, the Dragon Reborn and even to the Lion Throne.  Actually, it is so potentially devastating for the WT and the Light that it wouldn't do at all for Vandene to show in the least that she suspects Elayne or Nynaeve.<br /><br />Frankly, though, I think that Vandene <i>has</i> ruled them out as suspects and I think I probably understand her motives for finding them very unlikely DFs, let alone recruits of the BA. Vandene has no doubt been told a lot about their past while in Salidar - she conferred with Sheriam notably, and certainly with Myrelle - and she witnessed their actions first hand in Ebou Dar (I still believe that Vandene and Adeleas are primarly the circle's agents, not the Hall's  - and that it has something to do with their encounter with Moiraine). While it's not impossible that one of the girls or both is a well hidden mole (as far as Vandene can tell), it's not very likely at this point. One of the three others, however...  <br /><br />Aren't Elayne and Nynaeve's whereabouts also accounted for on that night - I can't remember?<br /><br />As you well established in the theory, it's either one of two things.  Either Jordan is narrowing this mystery down since TPOD and it's coming to its logical end in KOD - probably in unforeseen circumstances or with surprising consequences. Or he's built a substantial red herring by constantly, if subtlely, pointing toward Sareitha.  <br /><br />Her approval of Daved Hanlon (which is strange for an AS) and the fact it followed an errand in the city with her warder were always suspicious, IMHO - and the odds for Merilille as a suspect have dropped significantly since she escaped from the palace with a Sea Folk apprentice in WH. <br /><br />RJ has written Elayne's storyline since TPOD as an accumulation of threats gradually encircling Elayne, but revealed to the reader - if not their final purpose at least their existence.  I find it likely that the murderer will be revealed as Sareitha, plain and simple - her identity no more &quot;important&quot; than Hanlon's at that point (or that of Asmodean's killer - RJ makes it quite clear that it's not very relevant by stating he won't give more clues or the final answer in books 11-12). <br /><br />The Shadow has confirmed to us that there is a BA with Elayne - so Vandene and co. are right.  The secrets surrounding Adeleas' murder and Ispan's execution are perhaps in who ordered it done (if anyone... but if someone did the best case can probably be made for Moghedien covering up her traces with or without Moridin's orders), not so much in who of the three sisters carried out the orders. <br /><br />Ultimately, I think this murder was merely the first step to show us that the Shadow was now encircling Elayne - after Moridin promise to himself to get his revenge if they escaped.  If it hides a big twist I don't think it will be the identity of the killer.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 17:56:55
subject: <b>A few points...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Renaile nodded, accepting at last; there was very little else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet Elayne wondered. What was it that had not survived? She had noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point. She had questions. For later, when there were fewer ears around.<br /><br />Now, you can look at it from whatever angle suits you, but, notice at the end of Sareitha's first statement, that Elayne thinks: she sounded absolutely definite. <br /><br />So, to me at least, the inflection Elayne mentions later, did not occur in that paragraph</b></font><br /><br />Actually, Elayne notices the change in inflection &quot;at one point&quot;.  Not &quot;at the end&quot; or &quot;in the beginning&quot;, just &quot;at one point.&quot;<br /><br />As to Sareitha lying:<br /><br />1) IF she is BA, she wouldn't be bound by the Three Oaths, so there would be no problem here.<br />2) IF she's leaving out something because she doesn't want to &quot;frighten&quot; anyone, she's lying by ommission, period.  But since she's AS, that would come as second nature anyway!<br />3) IF she's stating the simple facts as she knows them, and doesn't say anything about the BA because she doesn't know about it, then she's lied about &quot;knowing everything there is to know about linking&quot;, which she claims at the beginning of her lecture.<br /><br />as to her being Adealas's killer, you're all forgetting Kirstain and Zarya's information to Vandene, in WH, when Vandene tells Elayne that they've reasoned out that either Merilille, Sareitha or Careane HAD to be the BA sister among them (or that more than one of them were.)  In all that we've seen, ONLY Sareitha has shown ANYTHING that even HINTS as reason to believe it's her.<br /><br />Of course, as someone said in the KoD message board topic, it isn't enough evidence to convict.  There may be 99.5% of a chance that it's Sareitha, but there is still that 0.5% reasonable doubt....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 05:38:51
subject: <b>Re: Marigan</b>
body:
What I was suggesting in that statement was that Elayne said she sounded <b>absolutely definite</b>. This implies to me that the inflection was not in that part of Sareitha's &quot;lecture&quot;. (i.e. to sound &quot;absolutely definite&quot; to Elayne's ears would mean there wouldn't be anything that sounded out of place, like an inflection.) This of course is just my opinion. You are free to draw your own conclusion.<br /><br /><b>3) IF she's stating the simple facts as she knows them, and doesn't say anything about the BA because she doesn't know about it, then she's lied about &quot;knowing everything there is to know about linking&quot;, which she claims at the beginning of her lecture.</b> <br /><br />This is <i>not</i> what Sareitha claimed. Here is what she said:<br />&quot;The Tower studied this for many years, long before the Trolloc Wars. I have read every page that survives in the Tower Library of those studies. It was proven conclusively that one woman cannot form a link with another against her will. It simply cannot be done; nothing happens. A willing surrender is necessary, just as in embracing saidar itself.&quot;<br />(I provided the whole scene in a post above if you would like to read it.)<br /><br /><b>as to her being Adealas's killer, you're all forgetting Kirstain and Zarya's information to Vandene, in WH, when Vandene tells Elayne that they've reasoned out that either Merilille, Sareitha or Careane HAD to be the BA sister among them (or that more than one of them were.) In all that we've seen, ONLY Sareitha has shown ANYTHING that even HINTS as reason to believe it's her.</b><br /><br />No, I'm not forgetting it, I am just taking it for what it is worth. A conclusion based on <i>their</i> reasoning and assumptions. That is a long way from making it fact. <br /><br />I normally cringe when I see someone making a statement like that in WoT. It has red flags waving all around it screaming at me to not believe it. There has just been <i>way</i> to many instances like this where someone absolutely believes that something is true, only to find out later they were mistaken, because the information they had was flawed or incomplete. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-04 15:35:27
subject: <b>Yup - this has to be taken into consideration</b>
body:
<b>I normally cringe when I see someone making a statement like that in WoT. It has red flags waving all around it screaming at me to not believe it. There has just been way to many instances like this where someone absolutely believes that something is true, only to find out later they were mistaken, because the information they had was flawed or incomplete.</b> <br /><br />That's always something better to be taken into account. When someone is being very affirmative it's often that she or he's wrong or missing information. And you know what? We can tell because Jordan also often gives us clues or facts that this person is wrong, sometimes before the affirmation to make some effect of irony, sometimes later on as a plot twist.<br /><br />The difference in the instance of Vandene's deduction about the murderer is that Jordan actually confirmed later on that she is at least partly right : there is indeed at least one BA, and most likely just one, hidden in the group.  Typically, this information is for us the readers alone, Vandene herself is still acting on her assumptions without knowing she is right. Worse still, only we know that the BA sister is about to fulfill a mission in the palace for Shiaine and that the time for Vandene's careful and slow probing of the three sisters (well, two now) is soon coming to an end.  She'd really be better to shield the two and put them to the question until she finds which one is BA - but Vandene can't know that the situation is this urgent and that the sister is about to threaten them again. That too is typical WOT.<br /><br />The remainder of Vandene's logic is quite impeccable :  the person who came with the tea knew that... <br /><br />A. Adeleas had developped a taste for heavily honeyed tea in Ebou Dar and thus the person could easily disguise the taste of crimsonthorn - this is not something even the Kin would know. <br /><br />B. Adeleas would not be suspicious if this person brought her tea at night. In both cases this points out to the person who brought the tea being a BA mole in the group or her DF Warder. <br /><br />Also, a point that is overlooked is the standing of the sister in the group, as a sister standing above Adeleas isn't so likely to bring her tea out of &quot;kindness&quot; - or she would raise Adeleas' attention about what she really wants from her.  Merillile stands a level about Adeleas and Vandene. Sareitha is on the same OP level but probably stands below, all factors considered, while Careane stands below in the OP.  We're back to Careane and Sareitha, or to Vandene herself.<br /><br />All sort of twists could happen, including that the Black Sister who brought the tea just opened the way for the real killer to question/execute Ispan, a killer we may not have enough clues to guess at except as a shot in the dark. <br /><br />It's pretty safe to say that the person who brought the tea to Adeleas is one of the four AS, and that this AS is the Black one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 16:46:44
subject: <b>RE Vandene</b>
body:
Just like to add some points in the debate, Vandene and Adealas were linked to shield Ispan. Surely Vandene should have noticed that the link had been broken and would have been the one to find her. This is the strongest single piee of evidence and whe reading the book this made me think it was her. <br /><br />Secondly, dark friends do have a history of killing siblings that they cared for (that one peddler cant think of his name off hand) this would explain why she was mourning her if she did kill her<br /><br />Thirdly, most of us are assuming that Ispan was the target maybe Adealas was and Ispan was killed gruesomly to throw off the sent, if this is the case it may be because she discovered who was the darkfriend was.<br /><br />Fourth, Ispan was very co-opretive maybe this was becase Vandene had identified herself. While this is not likely it does stack with other evidence. <br /><br />This is really done in the intrest of debate, personally i dont she did it, but hey it may be right.


created: 2005-10-01 06:35:41
subject: <b>Sareitha...</b>
body:
Yep, I just reread CoT and one thing that convinced me is something just in the end of chapter 11 where Sareitha defends &quot;Captain Mellar&quot; quite fiercly here's an example; <br /><br />&quot;Even if he did wrong,&quot; Sareitha said carefully, &quot;and I am not convinced that he did, Captain Mellar saved your life at the risk to his own, Elayne, your life and that of the Lady Dyelin. Was there really need to embarrass him in front of the rest of us?&quot; <br /><br />When has an Aes Sedai ever thought twice about embarrassing a man? Really? Unless...<br /><br />Well I'm sure you see my point <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just 10 more days mates!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-17 10:31:24
subject: <b>Read Knife of Dreams!</b>
body:
As this is in a theory thread for KoD I thought you'ld all know who the killer was. As you dont I'll not reveal it here but just state that the answer is in KoD. It's not even the slightest bit ambigous. It is simply stated that ******* is the killer.<br /><br />


created: 2005-10-19 23:47:07
subject: <b>WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG</b>
body:
sorry but nope your wrong it was . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CAREANE!!!!!!!! i know, since u find out in KoD. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-21 12:09:46
subject: <b>Check the posting dates</b>
body:
Vitch, this theory and most of the comments above you were posted before the actual book was released.  They were going off of the prologue that was released a few monthes ago I beleive.  (I could be wrong but I don't think so <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  )<br /><br />Mike<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all else fails, manipulate the data.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-12 23:48:37
subject: <b>no doubt</b>
body:
why even bother making a post about this?  it's freaking obvious it was Careane.  seriously, RJ laid that out as plain as day and then Vandene got sweet revenge a split second before she got offed herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Freudian Slip:  when you say one thing and mean your mother.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />is my hero!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 07:27:57
subject: <b>Don't think so.</b>
body:
Especially since I don't really see the point in Galad suddenly becoming a channeler.<br /><br />Plus, the evidence is too thin, IMO.<br />As you said, there are several non-channelers who use the oneness as well.<br /><br />Furthermore, in NS, ch.16, is a quite similar scene to Galad's in KoD, where Lan summons the oneness: <br />&quot;Seating himself cross-legged on a bale of straw, he assumed the ko'di and floated in calm emptiness, one with the bale beneath him, the stable, the scabbarded sword folded behind him. He could 'feel' the horses, cropping at their mangers, and flies buzzing in the corners. They were all part of him. Especially the sword. This time, though, it was only the emotionless void that he sought.&quot;<br /><br />I think this shows that already the oneness enhances the senses of non-channelers, without the One Power.


created: 2005-08-01 07:50:45
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
In NS we also see Lan take the ko'di in &quot;When to Surrender&quot; and he can sense people prior to them turning a corner or approaching, only someone wrapped in the power has a more heightened sense of things, as we see in Moiraine's POV when Lan tells her of his being attacked with the power. So no I think that we are merely seeing a POV from someone wrapped in the void, not a chaneller, although the genetics are there.


created: 2005-08-01 10:45:01
subject: <b>Voted no, but interesting thought</b>
body:
I suspect that if he can be taught, he doesn't have the &quot;spark&quot; to begin channelling without training.<br /><br />I agree that this is the void that is taught to people learning the blade, or other skill, at a high level.  Like Tam taught Rand, etc.<br /><br />Rand used this to learn to control channelling, however.<br /><br />But Galad wasn't sick afterwards the way Rand was the first few times.<br /><br />Still, as you say, the genetics is there.  Also for Gawayn, by the way.<br /><br />Interesng thought that never occurred to me.  <br /><br />A helpful theory, even if I disagree that he WAS channelling.


created: 2005-08-01 11:49:19
subject: <b>I don't think so... Does every main charachter have to channel?</b>
body:
It just doesn't fit... Sorry.<br /><br />As to the post above, I think Rand's sickness the first few times was caused by the taint. As saidin is now cleaned, thank is not an issue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 11:52:18
subject: <b>verrrry interesting</b>
body:
i didn't vote since i am nto so sure.  i like it though, and would be a man of great influence in the white cloaks ended up being a channeler...<br /><br />and to the person above me, nynaeve got sick too if i recall properly, so i think the sickness may be for chanelling.  i could be totally wrong of course since it is monday after all...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 21:12:04
subject: <b>The Age of Men</b>
body:
It could be he has the spark remember Rand was very young by male standards to be a channeler, on the otherhand Galad is still within the time scope of males with the spark begining to channel<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have never endorsed any viewpoint at any time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />This one included <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 22:17:55
subject: <b>Nice thought, but no</b>
body:
I noticed this myself while reading the prologue of KoD, but throughout the series RJ has shown how achieving the &quot;oneness&quot; enhanced one's senses and focus.  Also, you took the passage refering to Galad's anger out of context.  His &quot;red hot fury&quot; was in response to Valda's accusation that Morgase was a whore - she being the &quot;best ride I've ever had,&quot; which would be enough to infuriate anyone this side of the Arth Ocean.    <br /><br />I apologize if I've repeated the same comments as those posted before me.  I guess I should read other entries before I post.<br /><br />Anyhow, great thought, but I don't buy it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 17:38:40
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
EVERYONE gets sick when they Channel unless they are guided to it (remember Moiraine's little lecture to Egwene, when she tells her that she is very close to her first Touching...)  We know for a fact that Nynaeve did after she Healed Egwene, and Rand definately did after the &quot;blast&quot; on the hill (however much Moiraine thinks Rand washed away Bela's fatigue, the first time he actually truly USES the Power is on the hill with the explosion...)<br /><br />Anyway, Galad and Gawyn MAY be like the other Asha'men who can &quot;learn&quot; to Channel, but if they had the Spark in-born, Galad would have already been Channeling freely by now (he is in his late 20s, early 30s after all.)<br /><br />But, as it's been mentioned several times, a good number of the VERY good fighting men (Lan, Tam, Elyas, etc.) all use the Oneness.  (Perrin in CoT mentions to Elyas about how he feels during battle, and Elyas describes to him about some men feel fear, others have their senses heightened, etc.)  It basically is part of the adrenalin rush to the brain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I do agree with the fact that if anyone could, Galad and Gawyn definately should be able to &quot;learn&quot;, since between their mothers and their blood-line, they should have at least a recessive gene for it.<br />But I doubt highly that either one would even be remotely inclined to finding out...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 18:24:29
subject: <b>It's all in the genes</b>
body:
I've had this same thought about Galad for quite awhile, but my reasoning has nothing whatsoever to do with the prologue from KoD.  Everytime that we meet Galad, RJ goes out of his way to describe how every reasonable in the area goes all gooey inside, can't breathe, can't think straight, etc.  RJ has also said that most channelers learn little &quot;tricks&quot; early on, and that they often don't even realize that they're channeling (think Nynaeve's healing or Moiraine's eavesdropping trick).  I think that Galad IS channeling, perhaps a minor form of compulsion.  If this is true, he's been doing it for years, which would explain why we haven't seen him get sick.  We also know that several people (Taim and Rand, for example) have lived for several years without going stark-raving bonkers, so perhaps Galad is also one.  After all, his brother has lasted this many years with the taint AND a mad man in his head so perhaps, like we agree, it's all about genetics... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-08-03 03:07:22
subject: <b>No &amp; Yes</b>
body:
No he wasn't Channelling but at least 50% chance that he may be able to learn.<br /><br />If we assume Taringail (sp?) Damodred was able to learn and has the recessive trait for Channelling and Tigraine also was recessive then Galad has a one in two chance of being recessive - therefore can learn. We base the idea that Taringail was recessive on the assumption that Elayne (a sparker) is his child. There are no doubts on who Elayne's mother is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Therefore Janduin was also recessive and Rand is a one in four result - two genes for Channelling and therefore a &quot;sparker&quot;.<br /><br />Of course if Tigraine was a &quot;sparker&quot; then Galad can learn to Channel or has The Spark with a 75% likelyhood. Only a 25% chance that he can't Channel or learn to. If Tigraine was a &quot;sparker&quot; then Rand is actually the result of a one in two chance.<br /><br />Mind you if the ability to Channel has nothing to do with genetics (or any other type of ticks) then all bets are off. One could also argue that the occurence probability of a past event which has occurred is always 100% - it happened after all.<br /><br />Oh, in regards to the post above suggesting that Galad has been casting a low-level compulsion since he was a youth, no:<br /><br />1. He wouldn't do anything so callow, caddish and low even sub-conciously. He's Galad, the noblest of them all and the only one whose birth is not sinister (I tried posting a theory on this once but obviously I used the word &quot;bastard&quot; too often).<br /><br />2. It would work on men as well (men of a certain persuasion at least). Well maybe, OK, OK I'm stretching here.<br /><br />3. He's just a pheremone factory. I know, I have an older brother who's one, and like Galad &quot;he's not THAT good looking&quot;. But women still swoon when he goes past. Hah!<br /><br />at least that's my 2.2 cents worth (two cents plus GST).<br /><br />MickeyDee<br /><br />


created: 2005-08-03 16:25:39
subject: <b>Pluuuuuuuueeeeeeeez</b>
body:
Why does every main character have to be able to channel?<br /><br />It has been stated time and again that pretty much all the blademasters use the Flame and the Void, the Oneness, Ko'di, etc.  Not all of the channel, actually most don't.  A lot of people out there who have served in the military, ever gone hunting, or have been in a life threatening situation can tell you something.  When you are in that situation your senses become heightened imensely.  You can hear the slightest sound near you, everything you see is sharper and more in focus, you can smell everything around you with exquisite detail.  Remember people RJ did at least one tour in Vietnam so he would know what it is like to be in a life and death situation.  He is trying to impart that feeling to us and bring us into the story better.


created: 2005-08-04 21:21:50
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I have long had the suspicion that Galad would be able to at least learn to channel, what with his bloodlines and all. I also still think that he will somehow be a joining force behind the Ashaman and the Whitecloaks, since both organizations are supposed to stand for very similar things and Galad is the epitome of both.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-05 17:02:48
subject: <b>about the compulsion</b>
body:
maybe it wasn't compulsion. Maybe it was actually a mask of mirrors. I know that all these theories are way out there but think about it. It is a possiblity.


created: 2005-08-09 19:45:43
subject: <b>I agree, that it is POSSIBLE.</b>
body:
The bloodlines and the fact that RJ uses similar language to describe what Galad experiences as he does with OP enhances senses. But it is inconclusive. However I will state that males do manifest later than females. And that if this is his first touching the sickness that follows maybe days away.


created: 2005-08-16 20:55:56
subject: <b>Demandred/Galad comparison</b>
body:
Does anyone know where Demandred has gotten to? Could he empowering or influencing Galad? Or be Galad?(that's a stretch). Good interesting theory.


created: 2005-08-20 12:58:08
subject: <b>i think perhaps it no longer matters</b>
body:
I mean, we're nearing the end- who care who can and cant channel anymore?? So many have popped up in the story that its no longer extraordinary<br /><br />As for his age, he's what, 24/25 ish???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-29 03:15:17
subject: <b>Not sure</b>
body:
I am not sure if he can channel or can't or even if he was.<br />I do like the idea though.<br />I think it was in NS that it was said that men almost never manifested the spark before 18 and sometimes did not do so until 30 or so.<br />As to the channelling sickness, this manefests itself in several ways, and in the early stages not for days if not weeks after channelling, Rand took care of Bela on the night they left Edmonds Field, and then began acting irrationally on Doman's Ship.  Then later he knocked down the wall and sometime later had the feaver/chills.<br />The KoD prologue took place in one day, if Galad did channell we will not see any sickness on his part for sometime yet, I would guess that when he runs into Perrin (assuming that happens), if he can channell, he will have another incident with Sadin that cuases the Asha'man with Perrin to take notice at which point he will begin a unique training under the two with Perrin.


created: 2005-08-30 00:15:53
subject: <b>new thought</b>
body:
It has been stated repeatedly that: &quot;Galad always does what is right no matter who it hurts, even himself.&quot;<br />If Galad was or can channel, and realizes it, then the &quot;right&quot; thing to do will be to show up at the White Tower and ask for a genteling, anyone see this as likely?


created: 2005-09-19 11:28:08
subject: <b>Not sure but</b>
body:
Do we have definitive answers from Jordan that Tam/Lan or any of the othe Void users could not learn to channel?<br /><br />I know there have been a quite a few RAFO when asked about Tam or Lan.<br /><br />I have been of 2 minds about the Void since the very beginning.  I think it may be a hold over from the AOL for male novices. We know that there are times when Rand has channeled and we know he hasnt assumed the void. (At least early on when he wasnt concious of the ability)<br /><br />Much like the flower women use to prepare to touch the source the void would work the same way. Touching without could have strange consequences. I believe this is why as the AS say many with the spark perish if they dont learn a measure of control concious or not. These techniques are thier prescribed control meathod.<br /><br />My other thought is that in some way these control measures inhibit the channeler from achieving full potential with the power.<br />Nyn would be a good example of this her control mechanism was her anger and she was extremely powerful. <br /><br />At anyrate we will have to see about the theroy. I think it does have some merit if Galad can channel and could make for some interesting decisions for the WC in the future.<br /><br />After all the Light is supposedly with him he killed the Lord Captain Commander. (There is this minor detail that Morgase isnt dead that can also throw a wrench in the works)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-04 02:11:32
subject: <b>To LTT</b>
body:
I know this is two months' old, but just getting back to regular perusal of the boards, now that time draws near.<br /><br />You suggested that the sickness Rand suffered after channeling the first few times were due to the taint. This is not so. From Moiraine's POV in TEotW, attempting to convince Nynaeve that she is a channeler:<br /><br />&quot;-there was something you wanted more than anything else in the world, something you needed. And you got it.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You felt nothing special at the time, but a week or ten days later you had your first reaction to touching the True Source. Perhaps fever and chills that came on suddenly and put you to bed, then disappeared after only a few hours. None of the reactions, and they vary, lasts more than a few hours. Headaches and numbness and exhilaration all mixed together, and you taking foolish chances or acting giddy...&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Those were only reactions,&quot; Moiraine said patiently. &quot;Each time, the reaction comes closer to the actual touching of the Source, until the two happen almost together. After that there are no more reactions that can be seen, but it is as if a clock has begun ticking...&quot;<br /><br />Ten days from fleeing Emond's Field in the night, when Rand first channeled, strengthen Bela to run hard, until arriving in Baerlon. The second day there, Rand encounters the Whitecloaks, and behaves extremely rash. Taking a foolish chance by virtually challenging the Children, and acting giddy about it, almost feverish, which vainishes like a pricked bubble. <br /><br />He channels again during the mad run to Shadar Logoth, and a number of days later, aboard Bayle Domon's Spray, he loses his wits and does a high-wire act in the rigging of the top yard of the mainmast, then suddenly can't believe what he's done. The next time, he suffers a brief feverish illness that slows his and Mat's trip to Caemlyn for half a day.<br /><br />RJ gave the descriptions of those reactions in the conversation between Nynaeve and Moiraine for two reasons. First, it forces Nynaeve to accept that she's a channeler. Second, to indicate that Rand is channeling even before he knows it himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-13 23:58:00
subject: <b>I don't like it</b>
body:
I thought of the fact that he could be channeling when I first read the prologue but I decided that it would be a stupid plot when the series is just coming to a close.  Galad wouldn't likely be able to channel to any real affect by the time the Last Battle roles around so I disagree with the post completely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">lew therin is in my head<br /><br />he wants me to kill my dog</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-21 13:40:16
subject: <b>The Oneness</b>
body:
The heightened awareness is an effect of the oneness as seen when Lan is training Rand.<br />Galad hasen't had the fevers associated with channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-21 14:44:28
subject: <b>signs of channeling</b>
body:
With regard to other male channelers the effects of thier first touchings need not be on stage.<br /><br />What if Galad is indeed a channeler. And he was ill at somepoint in the past. He hasnt had that much stage time overall. <br /><br />We cant use us not seeing the fever or whatever as evidence.<br />We know that we havent seen the effects decribed of the AM in the BT who have the spark, there were a few.<br /><br /><br />With those who use the oneness it could be that they could be taught. If the oneness is indeed a holdover from AOL training exercises.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 23:12:12
subject: <b>It's too much of a stretch...</b>
body:
Not even RJ would go fur such a convoluted twist this far in the series<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">To be &quot;The Man&quot; you gotta beat Shai'Tan</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-07 12:00:34
subject: <b>NOPE</b>
body:
sorry but i dont think he channels. or ever will channel for that matter. The oneness and the flame although very similar to channeling do not necesarily mean that the person has achieved reaching the true source. I believe that he has hightened sences becase of the adrenaline rushing threw his system and hte fact that his concentration is so refined at this point that all his sences are runnin full blow. I hope that he doesnt learn to channel. That would piss me off...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> mat rules! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande! Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar! Al Ellisande!&quot;<br />&quot;Dovie'andi se tovya sagain&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-09 15:14:56
subject: <b>No Chance</b>
body:
Galad will not ever channel.  RJ has not planted ANY ACTUAL seed to indicat Galad can channel.  Who gives a flaming bloody pile of ashes whether or not he CAN learn.  He's not going to.  Everything in fact points to him reforming the identity of the Children to be a team player in the last battle.  Most likely he'll get another chapter and a few more Paragraphs before the end of the series.  <br /><br />This would be a fun theory 3 books ago.  At this point its spitting into the wind.


created: 2005-11-21 01:28:55
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
Sorry, but the theory that Galad can channel just isn't cogent. For one thing, the only people who channel unknowingly are those who are born with the spark. You could probably argue that learning to assume the ko'di brought on an ability to channel unknowingly because he had learned the first step, but that's not very likely, even if it's possible. It's been too long since Galad learned to assume the ko'di anyway. Besides which, not all who assume the ko'di are channelers, and it has been suggested numerous times that the ko'di is what causes the sense-enhancing effects, not the One Power.<br /><br />Of course, I could be wrong, and it could be that RJ is laughing at me right now, but I seriously doubt it. Many people have (wrongly) suspected Thom of channeling as well, but my suspicion is that it's the ko'di all over again with him as well.<br /><br />In short - no, I don't think so. There are better and simpler explanations which fit the facts.


created: 2005-12-01 14:33:04
subject: <b>Why not?</b>
body:
Does it really matter if RJ is planning on wrapping up the series in one more book?  That shouldn't keep him from adding struggle to major characters.  If it could happen to someone IRL, it can happen in Randland.  After all, would we be so addicted if we knew everything would be tied up nice and neat, like a sitcom, at the end of the books?  RJ's gone through some pains to portray a realistic world -- with its own rules and differences from ours, of course.<br /><br />So.  Could a &quot;big&quot; character like Galad just now be revealed as a channeler? Sure.  Why not?  How much more interesting is Galad when he's on the horns of a dilemma, and what bigger dilemma could there be than a goody-two-shoes discovering he's got the Dark One's taint (as far as he knows)?<br /><br />Can I see him marching to an AS, demanding to be gentled?  Nope.  But breaking his good-boy routine will be delightful, something a Forsaken could enjoy.  So why not?<br /><br />As for him casting compulsion unwittingly, what better way for a strict goody-goody to mask his power over people than by chalking it up to his charm?  In FoH, An Unexpected Offer, Galad tells a fellow WC: &quot;But whatever charm you think I possess, it does not work on this lady.&quot;<br /><br />Idle thoughts.  But again, why not?


created: 2006-01-08 20:11:22
subject: <b>Bah!</b>
body:
You know, much as I like the guy, saying Robert Jordan never puts any word to paper without some deep meaning behind it is folly.<br /><br />Galad was not holding the power...I think he would have been well aware of a roiling, raging sea of ice and fire threatening to consume him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


