# w_comment

created: 2004-10-31 22:38:38
subject: <b>Dangers</b>
body:
Major problem is that males and females use OP differently. So there are a lot of possibilities that could go wrong with captured male channeler. For instance if a Sul'dam tries to make a male channeler emprace Saidin same way that females do chances are very high that either they will lost their &quot;gifts&quot; or they and anything around them will be wiped out. Or I think that if one tries to channel too much Saidin at once or use &quot;Saidar&quot; weaves with Saidin he will either lost his ability to channel or there will be reaction like what happen with LTT.


created: 2004-11-01 00:45:41
subject: <b>three oaths</b>
body:
im not very convinced that the third oath holds an aes sedai to use the power as a weapon only when she is near death. <br /><br />1) remember moirrane could fight with the damane at tomans head, and neither she nor lan was supposedly near death or is a situation they would die.<br /><br />2) remember alanna in the fourth book? its true her warder died, but as he was attacked, she could use the power as a weapon, not when the warder died. <br /><br />but! given in the 10th book there are reds in the tower who agree with bonding the BT people, it is quite likely that something like that may happen, but i dont believe the AS will be sitting ducks for the seanchan.


created: 2005-05-08 19:33:52
subject: <b>Loopholes</b>
body:
If the Aes Sedai were able to convince themselves they might die then they could use the OP as a weapon


created: 2006-01-04 03:10:59
subject: <b>A woman must be leading.</b>
body:
This comment is kinda posted a loooooong time after the theory got posted, but what the heck.<br />I'm pretty sure that Asmodean told Rand that when men and women are in a circle a woman must handle the flows. Does that not mean that the Aes Sedai still can't use the OP as weapon?


created: 2004-10-03 18:06:27
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
This particular prophecy has always been a little unclear to me.  I had an inkling that it was Rand, but that seemed unlikely because in Egwene's dreams, Rand is always referred to by name.  I think that your theory will clear this up for a lot of people.  Thanks!<br /><br />Here's hoping that Bashere lives, because he's awesome.


created: 2004-10-03 20:01:49
subject: <b>That's a twist I hadn't thought of....</b>
body:
but it makes sense. I think most people automatically believe this dream refers to Rand, of course. But, it seems odd that Egwene wouldn't recognize someone she's known her whole life.<br /><br />In fact, I don't recall Egwene ever meeting Dobraine, so it could explain her not knowing who the man was.<br /><br />Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 20:53:28
subject: <b>Good Job Linda....</b>
body:
Ya got my vote... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 22:53:50
subject: <b>Defenitely merits thought</b>
body:
I had never thought about it before, but it makes sense. Unless someone comes up with a better theory, I'd say this is it.<br /><br />I guess we'll find out in KoD. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>CW</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 05:33:19
subject: <b>It could be Dobraine</b>
body:
A point against it seems to me the &quot;narrow bed&quot;.<br /><br />In the series narrow beds were found in taverns, farm houses or on ships. <br />Narrow beds are rather for servants or other less important people.<br /><br />For example in TDR, ch.8, Lan wants the room besides Moiraine's room (the best in the inn), but the attendant Simion tells him: <br />&quot;Oh, good master, that&#8217;s not a very good room at all. Narrow bed. Cramped. Meant for a servant, I suspect, as if we&#8217;d ever have anybody here who had a servant.&quot;<br /><br />Therefore it seems unlikely that Dobraine, after all a high ranking Lord, would lie in such a not very comfortable, narrow bed in the Cairhien palace, especially if he is still near death.<br /><br />I'm also unsure about the funeral pyre since it was never mentioned as common in Randland.<br /><br />For this, I rather believe that it could point to an occuring epidemic from which the man suffers, explaining why his corpse has to be burned and why some people are glad.<br /><br />Of course the great plus for your theory is that Dobraine is actually near death &amp; very important, while I don't know who the man could be, and why he is such important. <br /><br />I also think, though, that he is someone Egwene doesn't know yet, e.g. had she certainly recognized Rand (besides that it should be more than just <i> important </i> that Rand doesn't die; the world depends on it).<br /><br />All in all, I'm not convinced but it's a good idea.


created: 2004-10-04 06:00:32
subject: <b>Etzel - they take Dobraine farther into his apartments</b>
body:
we don't see his bed. People's bedrooms are not always what you expect.<br /><br />Egwene hasn't met Dobraine, so it is not surprising that she didn't recognise him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 06:13:42
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
<b> we don't see his bed. People's bedrooms are not always what you expect. </b><br /><br />I just think it's rather unlikely that they would lay Dobraine in a narrow bed if there are certainly more comfortable ones for a possibly dying lord in the palace. <br /><br /><b> Egwene hasn't met Dobraine, so it is not surprising that she didn't recognise him. </b><br /><br />That wasn't an argument against your theoy. <br /><br />Just wanted to state that I believe the man in the dream, whoever he is, is certainly someone Egwene doesn't know, otherwise she should recognize the person. <br /><br />Dobraine would meet this criteria, that's right.<br />


created: 2004-10-04 10:36:36
subject: <b>A new idea for the Dream</b>
body:
It could well be Dobraine, although the narrow bed leaves doubts, as Etzel said.<br /><br />If it were Dobraine, perhaps he was placed in the servants` quarters for protection of his life. Noone would think to look for him there. Or it could be easier to care for him in a narrow bed (thinking of hospital beds, here).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 11:27:02
subject: <b>I totaly disagree</b>
body:
The events Egwene described is not about Dobraine. You have focused on narrow bed and voice outside but you totally forgot - &quot;yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness&quot;. The almost death of the person Egwene saw tied to funeral pyre, voice of joy and sadness. There was nothing like that when Dobraine was lying in the room. It was shock to everybody and certainly nobody was building anything outside.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-10-04 12:12:28
subject: <b>The narrow ned is not a big deal.</b>
body:
It means the Reader can tend to both sides of her patient easily and efficiently. She can't do that if she has to clamber up onto the bed to reach him. A large, grand bed is not of much use in this situation.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 12:16:00
subject: <b>Skeeve - I said in my theory that the funeral pyre &lt;b&gt;is still to come&lt;/b&gt;.</b>
body:
The dream is <b>being fulfilled</b>. It has not been completely fufilled yet. I also said that if he continues to lie on the verge of death (and he has done so all through COT), then those that think he is not going to make it will start arranging his funeral - the pyre.<br /><br />I didn't make a big thing about the narrow bed - in fact I didn't mention it at all in my theory (because it isn't a big deal).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 12:45:31
subject: <b>The <i> narrow </i> bed must be a clue</b>
body:
Otherwise RJ could simply have said &quot;bed&quot;.<br /><br /><b> It means the Reader can tend to both sides of her patient easily and efficiently. She can't do that if she has to clamber up onto the bed to reach him. A large, grand bed is not of much use in this situation. </b><br /><br />As I recall Dobraine is just very weak form the Healing, which means he has to sleep &amp; eat to gather strength again, nothing else is needed.<br />Therefore a comfortable bed seems more likely for him.<br /><br />Maybe it's just me, but I associate the whole dream with the narrow bed, a funeral pyre &amp; singing people outside (apparently quite close to the room with the man) rather with a farm house, the pyre on the green and some farmers than with the Cairhien palace &amp; a city. <br /><br />And as I pointed out, it's very strange that there is a funeral pyre, and that it's even built before the man is actually dead. <br /><br />It's always just indicated that corpses in Randland are buried in graves, some in coffins, some without. <br /><br />A plague could explain why the possible corpse has to be burned as soon as possible.


created: 2004-10-04 15:44:31
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
Having read the BB comments, I was strongly reminded of a card in tarot: the four of swords.  It represents a man lying on bier with one sword on his chest and three others hovering above him with the blades pointed up (at least in the New Palladini deck I have).  The listed meanings are: vigilance, retreat, solitude, exile, the hermit's repose, tomb and coffin.  It's reverse means: Wise administration, economy, precaution, and testament.  Make of that what you will.<br /><br />I think the &quot;narrow&quot; bed could either be a healer's bed, as Linda mentioned, or a bier.  The main idea seems to be the uncertainty as to whether the man is dead, or sleeping/recovering, which aligns very neatly with the four of swords.<br /><br />With the funeral pyre, it doesn't need to refer to a literal pyre.  The importance, I think, is in the action.  It's being built.  The fact that it's not actually being used further clouds any conclusion one might draw as to whehter the man occupying the bed is dying or recovering.<br /><br />Nice topic, linda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 18:47:41
subject: <b>Linda</b>
body:
Sorry, but for me it doesn't look like it is being fulfilled. I agree that it looks similar to the dream. But again, I think when RJ describes the Dream he always points out the basic events that characterize the Dream - near-death man, narrow bed, a funeral pyre being built and songs of joy and sadness.<br /><br />There are three events here that doesn't match Dobraine's:<br />1) while his is lying near death - there is no funeral pyre that <b>is being built</b><br />2) while his is lying near death AND funeral pyre is being built - there is no <b>songs</b> of joy. Songs, not just voices. Songs of joy look more like celebration after the battle<br />3) while his is lying near death AND funeral pyre is being built - there is no <b>songs</b> of sadness. Again, songs, not just voices. And again songs of sadness look more like songs after someone aready dead - like after battle.<br /><br />To summarize - a funeral pyre and the &lt;songs&gt; of joy and saddness clearly point to after battle events and not to just some assassination act.


created: 2004-10-04 19:21:32
subject: <b>I tend</b>
body:
to take the songs and funeral pyre metaphorically.  The first we even hear of the attempt on Dobraine's life is when a maid runs into the kitchen screaming that he's dead.  As Samitsu and the others leave, Samitsu thinks to herself that the maid will likely sprout &quot;ten different versions of events&quot;.  We can imagine that all of these versions have to do with Dobraine dying (not being healed and living).  Before Samitsu even reaches Dobraine, the entire palace thinks he's dead, and the rumors will soon spread to the rest of the city.  This is where funeral pyres and sad songs come in.  People might not literally be singing sad songs and building a funeral pyre, but they are definitely preparing for Dobraine's death; servants weep over it, nobles head back to their rooms to decide whether or not this aids their own ends.  Similarly, the joyful songs could refer either to those who wanted Dobraine dead, or to those in the room when he is healed.  Anyway, that's my take.  Good theory, Linda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bond-holder of Falon Deathwatch Guard, having earned the right in bloody combat.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> Loyal Fan of Achates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Staunch Ciceronian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Acute Greekling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-04 19:33:23
subject: <b>Etzel - you haven't nursed sick people I think.</b>
body:
If he's that weak he can't go to the toilet. He can't clean himself. He has to have food (and Samitsu recommended a liquid diet) brought to his mouth.<br /><br />The Reader and his attendants will tend him, but all this requires easy access to his body. <br /><br />Especially since he was still in this state when Logain arrived at the Tairen manor towards the end of COT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-05 02:14:29
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
I'd always considered that to be about Rand. Interesting theory, though. Especially since I don't want Rand to die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-05 03:30:01
subject: <b>Linda_sedai</b>
body:
While I haven't nursed any sick people yet, my point is that the narrow bed has to be a clue as to where the man lies. <br />Otherwise it would just emphasise that the man is sick, what we already know, and thus be redundant.<br /><br />Therefore it seems to me that the narrow bed indicates that the man lies in a common, quite uncomfortable room, not in a Lord's room.<br /><br />Besides that, also Rand rests in his big bed in the Sun Palace after Fain's attack &amp; the Healing (ACoS, ch.41), not in a narrow bed. <br />Why should it be different in Dobraine's case?<br />


created: 2004-10-05 05:29:28
subject: <b>Etzel - Rand was only there two days and he slept the whole time.</b>
body:
So while they would have had some excretions to clean (probably only urine), they didn't have to feed or wash him.<br /><br />Dobraine has been on the verge of death throughout COT - and maybe will be longer. The fulfillment of the dream isn't complete yet. That's a lot longer period of time. It was also essential that they get sugar-water into Dobraine because he was dehydrated from losing so much blood. They need good access to him for all of this, since it is on-going.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-05 07:56:05
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
We'll have to wait and see what happens in future books. <br /><br />Oh and this whold 'narrow bed' thing. Linda is right, a narrow bed is best for nursing the sick. Also, just because it's narrow doesn't always mean it's uncomfortable. Narrow might not mean a thing, it could just be RJ doing his thing and being overly descriptive. Besides, we must remember that the dream is from Egwene's point of view. That probably makes a difference too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-05 10:48:28
subject: <b>cool</b>
body:
i never even considered dobraine for that dream.  that's crazy, i should have put that together.  good job on that, and now i agree with you.


created: 2004-10-05 15:03:36
subject: <b>just an observation</b>
body:
The fact that Egwene does not recognize a person in the dream does not mean she does not know them in real life. She did not recognize Aram in her dream where a Tinker stood near Perrin, and Aram she clearly knows. <br /><br />Unless, of course, there's something sinister about Aram, heh, heh...


created: 2004-10-05 23:51:53
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
I'd actually thought of Dobraine as a possibility for the man in this Dream of Egwene's too - although it's very possible I got the idea from you (can't recall if you've mentioned this before)!!<br /><br />As you've stated Linda, the Dream has not been completely fulfilled yet, and we also mustn't forget that Egwene's Dreams are often somewhat metaphorical (Mat lawn bowling with real men as pins and all).  <br /><br />If you want to interpret it a bit more literally though, the narrow bed certainly makes perfect sense as a sick bed, but it also might indicate that Dobraine may have to be moved at some point later on and accommodated in whatever way he can be (oh say, because hoards of trollocs are pooring into Cairhien or something).<br /><br />Songs of joy and sadness, well, a death is often celebrated as well as mourned; mourned for the passing of a loved one, celebrated for that love one's next step towards salvation and rebirth.  I don't see a funeral pyre as being out of the question at all either.<br /><br />Good theory Linda!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 08:08:30
subject: <b>Maybe I'm a bit ignorant...</b>
body:
<b> Dobraine has been on the verge of death throughout COT - and maybe will be longer. The fulfillment of the dream isn't complete yet. That's a lot longer period of time. It was also essential that they get sugar-water into Dobraine because he was dehydrated from losing so much blood. They need good access to him for all of this, since it is on-going. </b><br /><br />But I don't see why a sick person couldn't be tended in a wide, comfortable bed (and narrow beds always indicate that it is quite uncomfortable in the series) <br />Dobraine could simply lie on the right or left side of the bed (not in the middle), so anyone has good access to him.<br /><br />Furthermore, as you pointed out the servants bring Dobraine depper into his apartments. <br />It's said that Dobraine's apartments in the palace are &quot;in the Tower of the Full Moon, which was usually set aside for visiting nobility of high rank&quot;.<br />Therefore Dobraine has certainly not a narrow bed, but a big bed like Rand<br /><br />Samitsu even orders the servants:&quot;Take him to his bed&quot;.  That shows also Samitsu (who is after all according to Cadsuane, who can't lie, the best Healer ever) has not any problems with laying Dobraine in his bed; on the contrary she even wants it!<br /><br />It also makes not much sense to me that the servants, contrary to an Aes Sedai's command, later brought a narrow bed to Dobraine's apartments if he can apparently lie in his own, comfortable bed.<br /><br />Therefore the narrow bed obviously speaks against your interpretation.


created: 2004-10-06 08:11:53
subject: <b>Nice Idea Linda</b>
body:
It's a pretty cool thought, but I've had thoughts of my own and I think WOT is going to get a lot darker before we see the light and I actually think that Mazrim Taim is the person in the dream.  It's so obvious that a big brawl is going to start out with Taim's bad boys and Logains hooligans that I think Logain will best Taim, and while the remainder of the battle rages on, one of Taim's dark healers will be trying to save his master on one of the narrow beds in the Black Tower.  Logain thinking that he's won will order his boys to start building a pyre to burn Taim's body as an example.  It makes sense that within this setting, some will weep and some will be joyous.  The reason it is important that Taim not die is that he is the only bad guy who Rand can lay his hands on at will.  This could prove an important advantage when Rand needs to find all the forsaken.  Taim seems to be pretty underrated at this moment and I think, just like Fain, he has more to play here than any of us expect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 10:20:08
subject: <b>Egwene's dreams are often metaphorical</b>
body:
... and most often the details are.<br /><br />I don't think we need to interpret the narrow bed literally, it's probably a symbol as well. It could simply mean that the dying person's fate is uncertain, that he could roll over and fall (die) easily.<br /><br />The funeral pyre isn't so likely to be literal either. I think the only time we saw someting in this vein was for an Amyrlin? (the AS burned Tamra's body, right?). <br /><br />It's a symbol of sorrow, but in other situations a fire like that is a symbol of rejoicing and celebration. It might well simply echo the songs of joy and sadness.<br /><br />Overall it seems to mean the dying man is already mourned as dead by some, while other rejoice at his death. The fact the death of the man is celebrated/mourned before it actually happens place seems to indicate the man and his death is important to both sides, albeit for different reasons.  <br /><br />Jordan clearly wants us to believe this dream is about Rand (Min's viewing, Nicola's Foretelling etc.) but this probably means it <i>isn't</i> Rand, and the symbols in Egwene's dream don't match with the &quot;Three in a boat&quot; story.  I didn't think about this much before, but it makes sense.  Good work Linda!<br /><br />At this point of the series, the death of a guardian of a Seal - without Rand being able to question him about what happened and who took (or not) the Seal, without possibly Dobraine being able to reveal to anyone <i>where</i> he has hidden the Seal the DFs didn't find - could be important enough for Egwene to dream about it.<br /><br />Her dreams are always warnings, too - if she could interpret them correctly or force herself to dream further on the same subject (which I believe she has started to do about the WT).<br /><br />An alternative for Dobraine could be Bashere, but the pyre would then need to be symbolic because it's not the Borderlands' ritual at all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 11:15:25
subject: <b>To DomA</b>
body:
Egwene's Dreams are always somewhat abstract &amp; simplified of course, but nevertheless often quite literal if she dreams of realistic scenes.<br /><br />A few examples for such quite literal Dreams are &quot;Rand, reaching for a sword that seemed to be made of crystal, never seeing the fine net dropping over him.&quot;<br />Or &quot;Mat, hanging by his neck from a tree limb.&quot;<br />Or &quot;Whitecloaks ravaging the Two Rivers &quot; <br />Or certainly &quot;Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.&quot; <br /><br />If you look at the FAQ you see that many of her dreams are quite literal and foretell closely scenes that will happen in the books.<br /><br />Since also this dream is not absolutely fantastic &amp; unrealistic (like e.g. Rand tall as a mountain) I believe it foretells quite closely a coming scene; the narrow bed and the funeral pyre must be taken literally like the dying man. <br />Otherwise, if it were just a symbol, RJ could simply have said bed.<br />The &quot;narrow&quot; makes only sense to me if it's a clue as to where the dying man is.<br /><br />


created: 2004-10-06 17:04:40
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
Samitsu is a doctor - she doesn't have to do the nursing of her patients, so doesn't worry about the logistics of it.<br /><br />If you want to turn a patient over easily - to wash them or chage their clothing or their bedding, you need access to both sides of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 19:34:12
subject: <b>Great thought, and a little help</b>
body:
This is a good theory, one many should have brought up before now, so good job. As to the narrow bed, I believe that Etzel is taking it a bit too far, and that everyone should keep it in mind that RJ has used literal and metephorical Dreams, Fortellings, etc. and that he is not restricted to following the common ways (meaning that he is not forced to use literal, even though the mojority of Egwene's Dreams do seem this way, and his is known for changing things). DomA brought up a great point about the 'narrow bed' meaning that the man was very close to the end. And of course, the 'narrow bed' could be literal. Also Talyn Sedai brought up that the narrow bed could be just a misperception by Egwene, seeing that she is well spolied by this point, iirc.<br /><br />Only real reason for this post is to try and keep everyones mind open to all the posibilities, and maybe cool down Linda and Etzel. You both have good points, but we have gone far enough into the bed. If you must post, try looking into what the other aspects of the Dream may mean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-07 04:16:34
subject: <b>You are right, Putnal08</b>
body:
Probably all arguments regarding the narrow bed are exchanged... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Maybe we should look at the funeral pyre which I also want to take lierally.<br /><br />It seems normally graves are used in Randland. <br /><br />This is e.g. indicated by naming the DO &quot;Lord of the Grave&quot; because it's said he has power about the death. <br />Or by the words of the Horn of Valere prophecy: &quot;The grave is no bar to my call&quot;.<br /><br />In TGH, ch.10, we also see the Shienaran way: <br />&quot;The burial was simple. Two holes dug in the ground, and the bodies laid in as the rest of the Shienarans watched in silence. The grave diggers began shoveling earth into the graves with no more ado.&quot;<br /><br />Rand is shocked in this scene and then Loial explains that the Shienarans &quot;never use coffins or shrouds&quot;, indicating that Two River Folks &amp; Ogier use graves and coffins.<br /><br />As Doma pointed out Tamra was burned: <br />&quot;According to Tamra's wishes, her body was consumed by flows of Fire, and her ashes scattered across the grounds of the White Tower&quot;. <br /><br />In my view that Tamra explicitely wished for this, shows that burning is not so normal in Randland.<br />There is however no pyre, &quot;Tamra's body lay on a bier, sewn into a simple blue shroud.&quot; <br />Only the Trolloc corpses are burned on pyres after Winternight IIRC.<br /><br />So as far as we know graves are common in Randland, thus it would speak against a funeral pyre in Cairhien.<br /><br />As I said, a plague could explain why the corpse of the man has to be burned.<br /><br />Another thought is that it could be a Seanchan or Aiel tradition, we didn't heard of yet.<br />For the Aiel would speak Raen's comment in EotW, ch.25:<br />&quot;From the time an Aiel boy becomes a man he will not sing anything but battle chants, or their dirge for the slain.&quot;<br /><br />The Aiel's dirge could explain the singing voices. Maybe the Tinkers have the same tradition.


created: 2004-10-07 04:45:21
subject: <b>And as an addition</b>
body:
Especially for the Tinkers it would make sense to burn their deaths since they are Traveling People and therefore certainly don't have any cemeteries.<br /><br />I wonder how it is for people who live in a waste like the Aiel. <br />Does someone know if such cultures in our world use rather pyres to burn their deaths or dig graves? <br /><br />I'm not an expert but I could imagine that it's a bit difficult to dig graves in the waste.<br />Plus, there is the possibility that wild animals could dig the corpses out again.<br />Therefore it seems likely to me that the Aiel have the tradition to burn their deaths.


created: 2004-10-07 06:12:36
subject: <b>The Aiel don't have any wood to spare, though they might use dung.</b>
body:
After the battles in the 'wetlands' they are buried, facing sunrise. This may well be their normal way. <br /><br />The southerners were alarmed at the stark simplicity of the Shienaran funeral. Therefore they are used to something more elaborate.<br /><br />We don't see funeral services for all countries, and some may have cremation as well as or instead of burial. I wouldn't rule it out either way. Cremation may have been specified in the will.<br /><br />Since this death is as much rejoiced over as mourned, the cremation may be a way of making it a public spectacle for all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-07 16:48:40
subject: <b>Etzel, I'm with you on pyre thing</b>
body:
It seems very uncommon for Egwene to see pyre, if the customs dictate to bury in the coffin. So pyre must be important part of the Dream. Not just random thing and definietly should not be ignored.


created: 2004-10-07 23:39:57
subject: <b>Another take on the funeral pyre</b>
body:
It's possible that the funeral pyre is more a point of emphasis than anything else, something that illustrates more fully the importance - the dire importance - that the man who lay dying not die or be thought dead before time.  The funeral pyre could simply indicate that time has almost run out, and the man's life and the importance attached to it hangs in the last moment of balance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-08 03:03:34
subject: <b>Burial in Randland, et. al.</b>
body:
Why is everyone assuming that cremation is uncommon?  I know Loial refers to the coffin and shroud, etc., but that doesn't mean that burial is the universal way of treating a body.  Where are the people of Randland buried, anyway?  One normally thinks of the dead in orderly cemeteries, but we haven't seen them in any of the large cities.  The people of Randland seem to place a lot less stock than we of the present age do upon fear of death, especially without a universal religion per se to freak them out about a &quot;hell&quot; or whatever.  Their soul will just be spun back out at some point.  Because of this, I can see a lot less emphasis placed upon the sanctity of the deceased, and therefore cremation, rather than burial, be more of a common practice for people in a crowded city like Caemlyn or Tar Valon.  Since it's common practice to bury people in the Two Rivers (Perrin's family has their own little cemetery in TSR), might it have just been Rand's idea to do all the burying at Dumai's Wells? (except for the Aiel of course with their face-up towards the dawn thing.)  This could be another reason why Nurelle and Dobraine think that Rand's being &quot;excessive&quot; in patrolling through the bodies when he could have just cremated all the fallen in battle in the first place.<br /><br />Thoughts anyone?  Any other instances of Randland burials except for Shienarian/Tarna/Dumai's Wells?


created: 2004-10-08 04:56:44
subject: <b>Burials</b>
body:
Besides what I and you pointed out above about graves and burials, there are some other scenes which mention burials.<br /><br />For example:<br /><br />In LoC, ch.2, Bashere tells Rand a story about the mad Marshal-General of Saldaea Muad Cheade:<br />&quot;Once he had a grove of oaks chopped down because they were looking at him. And then insisted they be given decent funerals; he gave the oration. Do you have any idea how long it takes to dig graves for twenty-three oak trees?&quot;<br /><br />In LoC, ch.16, it's said that Halwin Norry &quot;arranged the daily burials of penniless friendless refugees&quot;.<br /><br />Also after Sammael's messenger Andris died in this chapter Rand orders:&quot;Have someone see to his burial. A prayer will not hurt, even if it doesn't help either.&quot;<br /><br />When Mat &amp; the Band of the Red Hand find the slaughtered Tinkers, Mat commands the Cairhienin Talmanes &amp; Daerid to have them buried and considers: &quot;In the morning there would only be graves, safely out of eyeshot.&quot;<br /><br />Alviarin remembers in ACoS, prologue, that the BA Jarna &quot;was buried, every sister in Tar Valon and every one who could reach the city in time attended the funeral.&quot;<br /><br />I also found that a Seanchan commander Assid Bakuun mentions &quot;burial prayers&quot; in PoD, ch.22.<br />Plus, the Seanchan soldier Varek considers that &quot;damane usually left enough of you to be buried.&quot; (PoD, ch.24)<br /><br />In PoD, ch.39, it's said that Tairen Lord Nalesean will be buried. <br /><br />Finally in CoT, ch.8, Perrin asks the Wise One Merline about the Shaido WO since some died at Dumia's Wells and she tells: &quot;We found bodies left behind, and they must have carried away those they could for proper burial. Even Shaido cannot have abandoned all custom.&quot;<br /><br />So apparently in the Westlands, among the Aiel and the Seanchan burials are the usual tradition, while cremations are never mentioned (except in Tarna's case). <br />It's also apparent that there are burials without any difference among common people and among high-ranking ones (e.g. Aes Sedai, Nalesean and also Morgase corpse is mentioned as buried).<br /><br />This shows that the funeral pyre could really be an indication of something like a plague (we see the DO's rotting influence everywhere) which changes the normal tradition of burials.


created: 2004-10-08 11:10:16
subject: <b>Burials and Pyres</b>
body:
From Etzel:  <b>This shows that the funeral pyre could really be an indication of something like a plague (we see the DO's rotting influence everywhere) which changes the normal tradition of burials.</b><br /><br />Yes, a very reasonable explanation, but again I would propose that this uncommon funeral pyre in Egwene's Dream may be a metaphorical expression of the direness and urgency of the situation - that the man's life not be giving up for dead too soon, that his body not be consigned to the immediate and irrevserable effects of the all consuming flames of a pyre before that last flicker of his own life goes out.  He who is dead yet lives in other words.  Who's to say that this last bit may only apply to Rand, or applies to Rand at all?  An ironic twist that.<br /><br />There are many who have, and will continue, to hold very crucial roles in this story.  This man, who may very well be Dobraine, is surely one of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-08 15:09:20
subject: <b>Wow, that's some good researching</b>
body:
First, just let me say that Etzel, I'm amazed at all the references you came up with!  I thought I knew a lot of trivia about WOT, but I didn't remember any of those!  Excellent work.<br /><br />Second, I'm forced to concur that cremation isn't a common practice in Randland.  The quote about Norry is especially telling.  I figure that the efficient Head Clerk would cremate the &quot;penniless refugees&quot; if he could, but instead he buries them.  That tells me that even in the big cities, buiral is the most common practice.<br /><br />I also like the idea of the plague.  It seems that's what RJ's gearing us up for, what with all the rats and roaches and such.  Wasn't there a mention of a worldwide plague somewhere in the BWB?  I don't have it with me, so I might be mistaken.<br /><br />I'd also like to draw more attention to the &quot;voices raised in joy and sadness.&quot;  This dream for me always had a very Hawkwing-esque feel, especially after I went back and read what Elyas had to say about Hawkwing in TEOTW:<br /><br />&quot;...the common people cheering for him wherever he went -- they really loved him, you see: he was a harsh man, but never with the common folk...&quot;<br /><br />as compared to <br /><br />&quot;...his sons and the rest of his blood fought over who would sit on Hawkwing's throne...There were those who would have erased  even the memory of him, if they could.  Books were burned just because they mentioned his name.&quot;  (TEOTW, paperback ed., p437 )<br /><br />I think that this is a good example of &quot;voices raised in joy and sadness.&quot;  I just don't feel that Dobraine is an important enough figure in the books to warrant that kind of deferential/detremental treatment from the citizens of Cairhien or anywhere else.  But who does, really, aside from Rand (and I don't think it's Rand)?  Thoughts anyone?


created: 2004-10-09 14:08:36
subject: <b>Cremation vs burial</b>
body:
Cremation is not absolutely necessary in case of plagues, and it can be very impractical. Since humans or animals are mostly made up of water, lots of wood are needed to burn one person. Therefore is it very unlikely that all victims are burned during a plague. I remember a recent outbreak of foot- and mouth disease among cattle, the government often had to dig pits to bury half-burned remains of cows with the disease, and sludginess in burning the cadavers was blamed for some cases of spread of the disease. Mass graves covered with lime are quite as effective, and wouldn't as much give supply problems. <br /><br />With all of this in mind, I don't think it's reasonable to put a link between the pire and a possible disease. <br /><br />Secondly, it's risky to put a link between cremation and cheap disposal of bodies. In a primitive culture like Randland cremation is probably far more expensive, you need an amount of wood that would keep a fire burning all through winter, so unless you're AS, it's more expensive then just digging a hole in the ground. <br /><br />With all this in mind I must say I agree with the theory, not with the opposition.


created: 2004-10-10 09:17:36
subject: <b>&quot;Hawkwing-like&quot; persons</b>
body:
<b> I think that this is a good example of &quot;voices raised in joy and sadness.&quot; I just don't feel that Dobraine is an important enough figure in the books to warrant that kind of deferential/detremental treatment from the citizens of Cairhien or anywhere else. But who does, really, aside from Rand (and I don't think it's Rand)? Thoughts anyone? </b><br /><br />I agree that Dobraine isn't such a controversial person.<br /><br />I have two presumptions of persons in Randland who have loyal, even fanatic followers but are also deeply hated by others, so that their death could provoke joy and sadness.  <br /><br />One is the Prophet Masema. <br />The narrow bed would fit with his ascetic way of life.<br /><br />The other is the High Inquisitor of the Children of the Light Asunawa. <br />Valda considers in CoT, prologue, that the Children &quot;held Asunawa in a strange esteem&quot;.<br /><br />Both could also come up with the crazy idea to be burned on a funeral pyre when they die (as said, if it isn't done because of a plague). <br /><br />Of course it's yet not clear to me, why it should be so important that they don't die.<br />


created: 2004-10-12 02:01:34
subject: <b>if you are not tired of bed ideas</b>
body:
I think the narrowness could be the strictness of being Cairhien.  granted it might be a stretch but in all descriptions of Cairhien they are a rather uptight bunch or in another venacular narrow.<br /><br />not everything in egwene's dreams are real life items often she has to interpret what they symbolize.  <br /><br />just an idea.  i know i am late.  i like the theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 18:19:44
subject: <b>People, not just &quot;voices&quot;!!!!</b>
body:
It says &quot;songs of joy and sadness&quot;. Not voices! I think Egwene in her Dream would point to the voices being just voices, but she points to songs. There is a difference, I think.


created: 2004-10-26 10:04:55
subject: <b>funeral pyre= fire in the city?</b>
body:
mayby what the funeral pyre mean that if Dobraine die, the city and the state of  Cairhien will fell again into civl war, riots,and chos? and we all know what riots brings, that right fire. it may also meann that even the fact thhat dobraine is on the brick of dayin it making cairhien nobles to preper to a power strugell, which  metaphorly , can be describe as building a funeral pyre  to cairhien?<br />it can mean that no matter if  dobraine live or die, the whells are alrady at mation, and the city wiil burn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-26 13:17:34
subject: <b>I hope not</b>
body:
I'm sick of Cairhien.  All of RJ's constant reminders of the &quot;straight-laced people&quot; and &quot;wanton sex behind closed doors&quot; is boring me.  Take us to Bandbar Eban or Tremalking.  Give us some action.  I don't think anyone would care if Cairhien burned to the ground except for that whiny Aes Sedai in the CoT Prologue.  Hopefully she'll burn to the ground along with the city.


created: 2005-03-06 12:02:57
subject: <b>err... guys...</b>
body:
i hate to ruin the lil love/hate thing going on here, Linda, Etzel and anyone else, but who cares about the bed?<br /><br />shouldnt we concentrate instead on the little insy wincy point of who exactly is dying? it could have some vital effect on the story we all know and love. <br /><br />We're arguing about something as trival as what colour dress Elayne wore in chapter 15 of WH or whatever.<br /><br />i agree with Wolf_Gaidin, i think it was Taim on the NARROW bed lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-09 23:07:20
subject: <b>An interesting theory</b>
body:
I agree that Taim has knowledge from the Age of Legends.<br /><br />However, the conflicting orders to the Asha'man Taim gives do not preclude him being Moridin at all. Moridin has gone to a lot of trouble to keep his identity as Taim secret. No one, not even the Forsaken have any idea that he masquerades as Taim. The conflicting orders is one of the ruses he has used to distance himself from Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-10 00:32:15
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I like it but i agree with what was said above. Mordin would give conflicting orders to throw people off his track and it is just like RJ to tell us something in someones POV that is wrong to throw us off.


created: 2004-10-10 01:37:50
subject: <b>About Moridin again</b>
body:
I suppose that you could argue that he's trying to confuse everyone. But does he have time to masquerade as Taim? Taim is obviously very busy with the BT, while Moridin is frequently lounging around at Shayol Ghul or spying on someone somewhere. I find it hard to believe that he has time for both.<br /><br />Not to mention, Ishamael/Moridin appears to prefer pulling strings from the sidelines as opposed to getting into the mix of things. Except for the fights with Rand and coming to him in his dreams and such, Ishamael/Moridin has done pretty much everything from a distance. He seems to like to send others to do his dirty work. Hiding out as Taim is definitely not pulling strings from the sidelines. That isn't proof, but it certainly is strongly against Moridin hiding out as Taim.<br /><br />And for that matter, has Moridin ever shown the slightest hatred of Rand? Rand is a pawn to him. He's been frustrated with him, but I can't think of any time where he expressed outright hatred, while IIRC Taim <i>has</i> shown hatred for Rand. He's certainly been angry over some of Rand's actions while Moridin has generally been annoyed, not out and out angry. I think that the personalities of Taim and Mordin are too different for them to be one and the same, but you're bound to state that he's merely trying to deceive everyone.<br /><br />But even more important, we know from Demandred (from the tea party scene prior to the cleansing of the taint) that Moridin is still mad. Being brought back to life has not fixed that. Perrin can smell if someone is mad. He smelled it in both Dashiva and Masema, yet he smelled none of that in Taim. If Taim was mad, surely Perrin would have noticed it. He noticed that Dashiva was mad in the same scene that Taim was right there with him (at the beginning of CoS) and yet he smelled none of that in Taim. And if Taim isn't mad, he can't be Moridin since Moridin <i>is</i> mad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-10 02:14:20
subject: <b>Taim is not Moridin...</b>
body:
Ok, first, great idea, very original.  It's something I never thought of.  I like the way you pulled things together to make your theory plausible.  Reading all the posts, I've gotten sick of loony theories that &quot;prove&quot; that somebody is somebody else.  However, I'm afraid that the evidence, IMO, is a bit circumstantial, and that all of the idiosyncracies about Taim can be expalined away by reasoning that he was tutuored by a Forsaken (IMO Ishy) before proclaiming himself TDR.  Also, didn't RJ say that Beidomon wasn't anybody currently in the Third Age?  I'm not sure about this, and wanted to bring it up.<br /><br />Also, to the other posters, there is no way that Moridin is Taim.  Remember, when Moridin is playing the sha'rah game, he is moving all the pieces to his wishes ( &quot;playing both sides of the table&quot; ), including Rand.  I don't see Taim as a puppetmaster of this fashion.  He is simply another piece.  Remember, even Semirhage likens herself at the beginning of LOC to a &quot;Spire&quot; in the game that she thinks about.  Think of Dungeons and Dragons.  Rand, Taim, all the Forsaken, they are the players at the mercy of the Dungeonmaster.<br /><br />And Moridin seems to be a pretty good Dungeonmaster to me.  But manipulating all these people just doesn't leave Moridin enough time to masquerade as Taim.  Taim doesn't have to &quot;be&quot; anyone.  Why can't he just be himself?  A really, really, really evil guy who wants all the power for himself, and hates Rand.  As others have pointed out, Moridin doesn't hate Rand.  Dislikes him, yes (as in Shadar Logoth), doesn't like working directly with him (he killed him, after all...), but simply sees him as means to an end.  Taim ordered the Fearsome Foursome to kill Rand.  I just don't buy into the &quot;conflicting orders making perfect sense because Moridin's trying to confuse everybody&quot; theory.<br /><br />Sorry to turn this into a rant about Taim not being Moridin...but I had to say it.


created: 2004-10-10 02:28:07
subject: <b>one problem</b>
body:
I'm not going to suggest that Taim is Moridin. That is a fatastical idea with nothing to back it up other than there are not enough clues saying that it is not the case.<br /><br />One, overlooked clue is that we know from the interogation of the captured black ajah in the stone of tear, that there was a darkfreind plot to free Taim. And this plot although revealed after, had to be concieved before Rand killed Ishamael. So I don't think the Moridin=Taim idea carries any weight.<br /><br />All the the forsaken are either dead or accounted for elsewhere, so Taim is not one of them. Taim is Taim. The voice in his head theory explains all the mystery about him, with only one problem. People don't simply here the voice from a long dead person, it is an insane voice, and Taim is not insane. Perhaps the voice in his head just happens to be less mad. Maybe Taim was insane, the the Dark One gave him back his sanity. Either way, we don't know yet.


created: 2004-10-10 02:30:53
subject: <b>I don't know how likely this is to be confirmed in the books,</b>
body:
but you present an excellent case.  Incidentally, in New Spring, the novel, it is revealed that some men don't start channeling until 30.  If he is from this age and has no protection from the DO, he doesn't have to have survived that long.  4-5 years is a lot more reasonable than the 15 or so Rand thinks Taim has survived on his own.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-10 03:25:26
subject: <b>I like the idea but..</b>
body:
Taim could be anybody from the AOL if your guess is correct. There is really no reason he has to be someone we have seen. Of course even if that is true he would still have the potential to go completely mad (voices in your head is no protection from that). How he could have survived this long still remains a valid question.


created: 2004-10-10 03:46:16
subject: <b>Kodam</b>
body:
<br />Great theory! I want to suggest that Kodam is just as likely as Beidomon. First, you said Kodom was not a darkfriend. Well, we don't know that and neither did the Aes Sedai who chose him to help them after the Bore was closed. With the Bore closed and the darkfriends on the run, even a darkfriend channeler might go along with some scheme cooked up by Aes Sedai. There is also the chance that Taim was a dark friend all along, and after Kodam took him over he was either in too deep to get out, or went to the dark on his own. No reason there to think that Kodom/Taim couldn't be darkfriends.<br /><br />Kodom is young and inexperienced, but he would have had years of watching the channellers around him working, and would know generally what was possible and impossible. As Taim/Kodom he had years before Rand started channelling to work out weaves for himself, plus what he already knew from his early training. So Taim's lack of knowledge, and unusual knowledge are both explained.<br /><br />I think Kodom fits the facts better than Beidomon.


created: 2004-10-10 06:33:17
subject: <b>Don't think your conclusion is so compelling</b>
body:
On the contrary, as others pointed out especially the fact that Taim is apparently unaffected by the taint for such a long time strongly indicates that he has the DO's protection and therefore is a DF.<br /><br />Plus, it would be very surprising if Taim and thus the power of the BT isn't controlled by the Shadow, considering that Moridin says in PoD, prologue, that he controls all sides.<br /><br />If Ishy was indeed Taim's teacher in the past, I don't think it's so unusual that he also taught him a bit of the AoL history, e.g. the origin of the Aiel.<br />After all also Mesaana tells her disciple Alviarin of some marvels of the AoL (e.g. a &quot;lift&quot; ), as it is said in CoT, ch.21, though this is indeed quite trivial.<br /><br />Finally when Ishy had been Taim's teacher, he certainly would have known if Taim is someone from the AoL. <br /><br />However, Moridin's comment in PoD, prologue, that &quot;only nine people living even remembered the game [sha'rah]&quot; speaks against the idea that Taim is from the AoL. <br />Moridin means the only persons from the AoL in this Age, the still living Forsaken: Demandred, Aran'gar, Osan'gar, Cyndane, Graendal, Moghedien, Mesaana,  Semirhage and himself.  <br /><br />Taim/Beidomon should know the game as well if your theory would be correct and then there were ten sha'rah players.<br /><br />For this, I have to disagree with your theory. <br />To me it makes more sense that Ishy trained Taim, and this explains his behaviour much better.


created: 2004-10-10 09:42:02
subject: <b>You finally got it submitted!</b>
body:
Nicely done.<br /><br />I enjoyed this theory very much, and I agreed with most of it, until the whole &quot;he was reborn from these three people that were darkfriends from the AoL.<br /><br />Your theory was stable, well thought out, but it was streched a little thin at the end.  It might be possible because RJ does mention a charactor in passing and then use them as another plot line. <br /><br />It will be interesting to see what happens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-10 12:01:43
subject: <b>Partly Right</b>
body:
You were on the money with all of the reasoning that you used to eliminate the Forsaken as candidates.  Proponents of Taim = Moridin have never produced a single piece of positive evidence that couldn't be used to support other, more plausible (IMHO) theories.<br />However, like the Taim = Moridin people, you've jumped to the conclusion that &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; proves that Taim has first hand knowledge of the AoL.  Not necessarily.  Anybody who spends enough time with a Forsaken (including Alviarin, as someone else here noted) is bound to pick up a lot of AoL junk.  &quot;So-called Aiel&quot; seems to be a favorite in-joke of the Forsaken, and it wouldn't be shocking if a Forsaken Wannabe would pick up on that and start using it, like a kid taking catchphrases from his favorite TV show.


created: 2004-10-10 13:54:02
subject: <b>This theory is not credible, the author himself refutes it,</b>
body:
You had me going for a little while, with the talk about voices in Taim's head as being a direct result to the taint on sadin. It was a well thought out hypothesis, but that's where it ends. <br /><br />Later on you state that it couldn't be Joric in Taim's head because:<br /><br />&quot;He went mad due to the Taint. If he had been linked to the DO, that would not have happened.&quot;<br /><br />I had drawn my conclusion about this theory before I read this particular part so maybe some of you can see where I'm going with this. <br /><br />Here goes, Taim is obviously a darkfriend, correct? I believe it is even stated in this theory as fact. As a darkfriend who channels, he is given the protection from the taint by the Dark One as do the male Foresaken. (I'm not making this assumption, the author states it in his article!) So if our buddy Taim here is a DF (which he is) and protected from the taint due to his DF/Channeller status) which we both agree would be the case if he was a DF,..... here it comes.....<br /><br />HOW DOES HE HEAR VOICES IN HIS HEAD FROM THE Age of Legends?!?!?!?!<br /><br />You say the voices are caused by the taint which he is protected from. Does not make much sense my friend. None of the male Foresaken hear voices, via the protection from the taint so why should Taim be different? Don't forget, the Foresaken are DF/Channellers as well, just the foremost of them throughout an Age.<br /><br />You may say to this &quot;Oh... um, Taim's AoL voice took over while he was subject to the taint and then he became a DF.&quot; I won't buy that for a second. Why? For a couple of reasons.<br /><br />Firstly, would you expect LTT to go around mascarding as Rand if he took over? I don't think so, he would claim to be who he is. Secondly, who was it you said was inside Taim's head? Oh yeah, Beidomon. Ha ha. Ok, first of all, Beidomon is not a Foresaken, was not sealed in the bore, was not really important besides being there when the bore was drilled with a few others. He isn't even tied to the Wheel the way LTT is. He's just not important. Why would he pop into Taim's head at all? I mean the fact that LTT appears in Rand's thoughts can be attributed to the fact that he is the reincarnate of a soul tied to The Wheel of Time.<br /><br />I could go on and on here but I digress. Even if I'm completely wrong with everything else I said here, the fact that the author says Taim is a DF/Channeller who is somehow subject to the taint which causes him to go mad and hear a voice that takes him over makes his arguement completely false. Sorry.


created: 2004-10-10 16:35:08
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Say Taim is a normal man, he learns he can channel! Crud, he hasn't gone mad for a while, good deal... wait a minute... maybe I'm the Dragon Reborn he says to himself.  He starts setting himself in as the Dragon Reborn... just like Logain.  Then the madness kicks in.  A darkfriend from his past life kicks in as a voice in his head.  He falls victim to it and becomes the voice, but only after the voice (a darkfriend, therefore NOT mad) has listened in long enough to learn about the person he has taken over to masquerade as him, much like how LTT knows much about Rand (but LTT is mad.)  So a scheming Darkfriend from the past is revived thanks to the taint.  Meanwhile previous Taim, who was not a Darkfriend, is lost.  What's wrong with that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-10 19:04:42
subject: <b>Um...</b>
body:
When you think about most things from the Wheel of Time, you'll notice that RJ's plot devices are pretty simple in nature.  Like Taim=Demandred, it made so much sense we all believed it.  Now that Taim is once again a mystery, we're all grasping at straws to find out who he &quot;really is&quot;.  I think it's much more simple, and plausible, to say that he's a 3rd Age Darkfriend, tutored by a Forsaken than to say that a Darkfriend AOL channeler, him in a past life, has taken over his body and is CONTROLLING his every move.  Simple explanations are usually better, and in this case, this one just doesn't fit.  Taim is not Beidomon, Moridin, Bayle Domon, or Verin...<br /><br />He's himself.  Get over it.


created: 2004-10-10 19:30:42
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
I was reading the theory and had a thought.  The author doesn't seem to think that taim's past life was a dark friend.    Yet many people leaving comments seem to think that his past life could have been a darkfriend.  Then I read in one of the comments that their was a dark friend plot to free Taim.  I believe that after Taim was captured, Black Ajah set recaptured him for their own purposes (orders from Ishy in prolouge to Great Hunt).  Before setting him free though they could have turned him into a darkfriend.  Think about it.  They are in the borderlands, the blight is right there, how hard would it be to find some fades and turn him.  then they would set him free.  so it really doesn't matter if his past life was a DF or not.  <br /><br />Also, going back to the DF meeting. the AS could have been told to bring Taim to Ishy and then he could have been turned.  It would also explain where Tiam's knowledge and what not came from.<br /><br />That would also account for his mysterious disappearence for a couple books and the fact that he showed up with a seal.  The seal could have been a way to buy into Rand's confidence.  Ishy/moridin could have told him to do this.  In a different Theory I seem to remember a statment saying that Rand had to break the seals on the DO prison.<br /><br />}:l


created: 2004-10-10 22:22:13
subject: <b>The theory has merit</b>
body:
Unless RJ has actually said (as someone above claims) that Beidomon has no role in the 3rd age, then I agree with the theory. I think that Moridin as Taim is ridiculous and unnecessary. Moridin is totally bound up pulling strings for the DO, why would he want to masquerade as Taim.<br /><br />This theory does it for me! Well done.


created: 2004-10-10 23:43:40
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
I like the theory, but I don't agree, I admit to being a rpg fan and in the rpg game published for wheel of time which would have to be officially sanctioned by Robert Jordan Taim's capture by the Black Ajah is shown as the sisters from the White Tower who have captured him are infiltrated by Black sisters who torture Taim to turn him, in the game the heroes being played rescue Taim. A plausible explanation for how he escapes without help from a voice in his head.<br /><br />As for how he does get turned remember Osan'gar/Dashiva was in the Black Tower and was likely trying to recruit channelers to be DFs, he has shown the attitudes from the AOL mentioned, and some would rub off on his pupils. Taim might have wanted to swear to the dark one earlier in his career for more power, protection from the taint, immortality etc. but how easy is it for a man who has just learned he can channel to approach Shayol Ghul and offer his services. For someone who has only just learned to channel and probably has a small reportiour of powers it would be suicide to try on your own. Before Taim announced himself as a false dragon the only forsaken loose was Ishmael who only appears in cycles and would be hard to find, the only other way to reach him than travel would be to approach a darkfriend, for most people they wouldn't know where to start, or who to approach.


created: 2004-10-11 11:46:49
subject: <b>Taim the Darkfriend</b>
body:
How does anybody become a Darkfriend?  We just don't know.  Yet there seem to be a lot of them floating around out there, so there must be SOME way.  We simply don't know enough about the Darkfriend Application Process(TM) to say that it would be &quot;too hard&quot; for Taim to find a Darkfriend.  And as for Ishy, he's been actively engaged in the world for many years now.  Remember how he directly tortured the Black Ajah head, Jarna Malari, and the Supreme Council, after the Aiel War.  He's been pulling strings now for a while.  If the Black Ajah found a Darkfriend channeler like Taim during their hunt for the DR, I think it would be only too easy for Ishy to leap at the chance for a very powerful, Forsaken-strength channeler to be at his disposal.  As for the Black Ajah plot to free Taim, I think it's clear that Joiya in the Stone of Tear is lying about this.  Remember, the BA has an Oath that doesn't allow them to reveal any current plots.  So Joiya telling the Wundergirls about this BA plot isn't proof.  The BA may have had a hand in his escape, or it may not have.  Perhaps a Forsaken directly freed him, like Aran'gar did with Moggy.  We just don't know, and Joiya's story is NOT proof that the BA did it.  In fact, it might just be proof that the BA didn't have a hand in his rescue.


created: 2004-10-11 12:22:47
subject: <b>The real issue is that...</b>
body:
The real issue is that how Taim acts is too much like one of the Forsaken. To my knowledge, no one other than him or a Forsaken has even used the term &quot;so-called.&quot; Certainly in the case of Dashiva it was a big clue that he was one of the Forsaken. Taim has said too many things (&quot;so-called Aiel&quot; and &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; are just the ones that stand out to me the most) that fit perfectly with someone from the AoL, but seem really odd for someone from the third Age to be saying or doing. His attitudes are very close to those of the Forsaken. No other third Ager is quite like him in that respect. Add to that his large amount of knowledge of channeling and shadowspawn (he at least didn't ask what a gholam was when Rand mentioned it) and he starts to look like one of the Forsaken <i>really</i> fast. But there isn't one left that he can be. Unless you really think that Moridin has the time to be both himself and Taim <i>and</i> act quite a bit differently in both roles, there's no Forsaken for Taim to be.<br /><br />Being a DF does not explain any of that away really. It's possible for him to have gotten knowledge from the Forsaken, but not the attitudes. At times it's almost like RJ's hitting us over the head with a stick that Taim isn't just another DF. He acts like the Forsaken. But he can't be one because there aren't any left to be.<br /><br />Taim <i>can't</i> be just Taim - just another DF. There's too many clues to the contrary. Thus the issue becomes how he's from the AoL and who he is exactly. And that's where my theory comes in. If you can't accept that Taim isn't just Taim, then obviously you're going to disagree with me. But at least given the assumptions that Taim is from the AoL and that Moridin is not Taim, I don't really see any other reasonable conclusion than the one that I've given. Taim had a voice from his past life that took him over.<br /><br />As such the main points of disagreement are whether Taim can act the way he does and say what he does and be just plain old Taim. And whether or not it is even vaguely reasonable to think that Moridin might be Taim. Personally, I think that the evidence is too strong for Taim not to be from the AoL and that the conflicting orders of Moridin and Taim alone prove that Taim isn't Moridin. And further examination only strengthens that point. As such, I hold to my theory as the only reasonable conclusion from the facts. Certainly I've seen no better explanation and can think of none.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 12:44:08
subject: <b>Simpler than it seems</b>
body:
In the author's theory, he states many times &quot;unless Taim was turned by a circle of 13&quot;.  I happen to be of the opinion that Taim was either a darkfriend to begin with, or he was turned by a circle of 13.  Of all of the author's supporting evidence, the &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; statement is the most compelling, but it can be explained by tutilage from a Forsaken, or working for a Forsaken.  I have to agree that the simplest explanation for Taim is the most plausible. Taim is just Taim.  Darkfriend and jealous of Rand's power.


created: 2004-10-11 12:49:06
subject: <b>a couple of RJ Q&amp;A points...</b>
body:
These are two RJ Questions with answers from the the FAQ that may be relevant.<br /><br /><i><br />The character Beidomon was presumably very powerful in the Age Of Legends and it has been suggested by some that he is still knocking around in the current age, possibly as Mordeth. Is there any truth in this? (Editor&#8217;s note: There is also a RAFO that follows on from this question. See the relevant FAQ)<br /><br />No.<br /><br />A follow up to the previous Beidomon Question: Is he somewhere in the current age?<br /><br />Read and find out.<br /></i><br /><br />From this we can conclude that RJ has not trumped the idea - though I still find the theory to be rather unlikely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 14:11:27
subject: <b>KISS</b>
body:
I always thought that Beidomon was Ishamael/Moridin. I also agree with most of the people who have replied to this theory.  That we have to KISS (keep it simple stupid).  Taim is a member of the new dreadlords.  That&#8217;s it!  <br />He was all for being the Dragon Reborn and getting all the power and fame that it entails.  But Rand put a squash on that career move.  So now Taim is thinking, why does Rand get all the glory and acclaim?  I&#8217;m just as good as Rand if not better.  So now he has issues, &#8220;Any&#8221; of the forsaken could have approached Taim in a dream or in person, and said &#8220;You can have all the glory and power you want.  You can become immortal.  All you gotta do is come with me, bow your head and swear this oath&#8221;.  A male forsaken will then teach you how you can use your talents and achieve the promised results.<br />RJ has made numerous statements about how the male forsaken were turned to the shadow because they were jealous of Lews Therin.  No matter how much he tried to give them praise and recognition, it was never enough.  They all thought they were better than LTT.  Dame that sounds allot like Taim doesn&#8217;t it?<br />So this is what we have. (1) A jealous male channeler who thought he was all that and a bag of chips, who just got a serious set back in his desired career.  (2) We have a man with a hugh ego and feels that he should get anything he wants.  (3) We have a man with issues that can be exploited.  (4) We have a need to replenish the number of dread lords for the upcoming Last Battle TG.  <br />Result, Taim says &#8220;hey your right! I&#8217;m better than him; I&#8217;ll swear that the DarkOne is my Daddy.  I want to live forever and have power &amp; glory.&#8221;  He is now a dark friend.  Ole ishy says, &#8220;get your ass over there and get close to Rand.  Take him this and he will let you in&#8221;.  <br />Simple! Why can&#8217;t Taim just be a cat that is pissed off because life didn&#8217;t work out like he wanted, and an opportunity presented itself that he could still get what he wanted?  Taim is just a new recruit for the shadow.  He swore himself to the DarkOne because he couldn&#8217;t be the Dragon Reborn. Simple.<br /><br />All the stuff about AOL, his comments could be about what he new of the Aiel while he fought them in the borderlands.  Remember Aiel fought each other as much if not more than they fought others.  The Aiel working together and following one person is not normal and wasn&#8217;t a possibility in most wetlanders mind.  The Aiel didn&#8217;t share prophecies and stuff like that with wetlanders. Simple!<br /><br />His attitude about AS, he knows he is powerful he also knows that the only reason he was captured was because of Rand.  Most everybody in Randland has crazy ideas and thoughts about AS.  He is just an arrogant powerful man who looks down on them.  Simple!<br />


created: 2004-10-11 14:46:19
subject: <b>To Kalessin</b>
body:
<b> The real issue is that how Taim acts is too much like one of the Forsaken. To my knowledge, no one other than him or a Forsaken has even used the term &quot;so-called.&quot; Certainly in the case of Dashiva it was a big clue that he was one of the Forsaken. Taim has said too many things (&quot;so-called Aiel&quot; and &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; are just the ones that stand out to me the most) that fit perfectly with someone from the AoL, but seem really odd for someone from the third Age to be saying or doing. His attitudes are very close to those of the Forsaken. No other third Ager is quite like him in that respect. Add to that his large amount of knowledge of channeling and shadowspawn (he at least didn't ask what a gholam was when Rand mentioned it) and he starts to look like one of the Forsaken really fast. But there isn't one left that he can be. Unless you really think that Moridin has the time to be both himself and Taim and act quite a bit differently in both roles, there's no Forsaken for Taim to be. </b><br /><br />In the end it's probably a matter of the personal view if someone can buy that Taim got an arrogant attitude like some Forsaken and e.g. picked up knowledge like the &quot;so-called Aiel&quot;-term when he was trained by Ishy for some years, or if that is just impossible.<br />Personally I have no problem at all believing the first explanation.<br /><br />Another idea to explain the &quot;so-called Aiel&quot;-term in LoC, ch.11, could be that Taim in his arrogance doesn't consider them as <i> real </i> Aiel at this time since they seem quite tame and not like the vandalizing savages, people in the Westlands would expect to be Aiel.<br />As said, I rather believe that Taim picked the term &amp; its meaning up from Ishy, but who knows...<br /><br />By the way, with &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; Taim refers to the Shaido in LoC, ch.55, like also Perrin in WH, ch.6.<br /><br /><b> Being a DF does not explain any of that away really. It's possible for him to have gotten knowledge from the Forsaken, but not the attitudes. At times it's almost like RJ's hitting us over the head with a stick that Taim isn't just another DF. He acts like the Forsaken. But he can't be one because there aren't any left to be.<br /><br />Taim can't be just Taim - just another DF. There's too many clues to the contrary. Thus the issue becomes how he's from the AoL and who he is exactly. And that's where my theory comes in. If you can't accept that Taim isn't just Taim, then obviously you're going to disagree with me. But at least given the assumptions that Taim is from the AoL and that Moridin is not Taim, I don't really see any other reasonable conclusion than the one that I've given. Taim had a voice from his past life that took him over. </b><br /><br />Note that Taim is not just a random DF, but certainly one of the most powerful &amp; important DF, even if he isn't a Forsaken.<br /><br /><b> As such the main points of disagreement are whether Taim can act the way he does and say what he does and be just plain old Taim. And whether or not it is even vaguely reasonable to think that Moridin might be Taim. Personally, I think that the evidence is too strong for Taim not to be from the AoL and that the conflicting orders of Moridin and Taim alone prove that Taim isn't Moridin. And further examination only strengthens that point. As such, I hold to my theory as the only reasonable conclusion from the facts. Certainly I've seen no better explanation and can think of none. </b><br /><br />I agree at least that Moridin can't be Taim, especially since RJ stated that Taim &amp; the Asha'man came to Dumai's Wells because Taim is paranoid, heard that Rand disappeared in Cairhien and followed his possible route until he found him with the AS party.<br /><br />Moridin would without any doubt already know of the plot to capture Rand if he was already transmigrated then and not just act because he is paranoid.


created: 2004-10-11 20:32:54
subject: <b>I rather like this theory</b>
body:
It does xplain a lot of things.  Why bring up someone, if it was not on someway foreshadowing<br /><br />I like this theory a lot<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 21:16:29
subject: <b>Graendal is behind Taim</b>
body:
I'll look for more as I reread everything, but in the the middle of LOC, there is a seen where Graendal is clearly terrified of Rand, and Sammael. Then a hundred pages later a gray man tries to kill Rand, but is stopped by Taim.<br /><br />The gray man was sent so that Rand would brake the truce that Graendal thinks exists between him and Sammael. Taim kills the gray man, so nothing could be learned by questioning it, and at this point Graendal is not going to go against the great lord and kill Rand. <br /><br />Graendal wants Sammael and Rand both death. on page 349 from her POV &quot;She had no intention of ever confronting him directly; if Ishamael adn Rahvin had fallen to him, she was not about to risk his strenght, not head on.&quot; and a little latter on &quot;She very much wished she dared turn him [Sammael] into a corpse.&quot;<br /><br />Why else would this four page chapter be in the middle of the book, showing how Graendal wants to get rid of those two, excpet to show that she is behind the scene of later events. <br /><br />So perhaps Graendal is the key to understanding Taim. Perhaps all along he was waiting for Rand to kill Sammael before going after Rand himself.


created: 2004-10-11 21:33:44
subject: <b>ok about this theory</b>
body:
sounds good but taim being LTT? i dunt think so, if Taim is any1 he is one of the previous false dragons reborn, but keep it mind also that if taim is indeed a false dragon reborn he would have the memoires of the FD, but the FD say Darkbane, would have the memoires of the FD frum b4 he was reborn as the false dragon, i relieze this must be hard to follow lol im sorry, but being reborn could mean thats how taim has these memories of bein a FD.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Calhar! Dovie'andi se tovya sagain! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loth<br />~~M'hael de Shen al Calhar~~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 21:42:33
subject: <b>I think Taim is just a darkfriend.</b>
body:
He started channelling way before rand, so he could have slowed.  If he looks 30-35 now, he could very well be 100 right now.  So, if he is older than we have been led to believe then he started channelling in an age where he had three options.  (1)go mad (2)get hunted down by the reds or (3) go to shayol ghul and save himself.  I'm not an evil guy, but even I would be tempted by door #3.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 22:07:30
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Anyone think he could be Guiare Amalasan? That is who I first thought of while reading this thory. The BWB goes to great detail to describe Amalasan's crusade as a False Dragon and doesn't really mention Darksbane or any of the others. Amalasan certainly would be pissed that Rand was the Dragon Reborn and not him.<br /><br />Just a thought, not really a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-11 22:09:28
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I like this theory and i don't agree with Moridin as Taim because, to be honest, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to waste time doing this.  However, one thing I'd like to add would be that (though I can't remember off the top of my head where) in one of the books a forsaken (Demandred?) remembers that, during the war of power, over a dozen of the forsaken had died because of the Great Lord's suspicion.  Could Taim be one of these Forsaken brought back to life that we just haven't met yet?


created: 2004-10-12 00:16:55
subject: <b>Burying my head in my hands and crying...</b>
body:
WHY can't Taim just be himself?  Why does he have to be Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane, Moridin, or ANYBODY?  Why can't he just be himself???<br /><br />Anyway, rant over.  It would be incredibly lame for Taim to be some random Forsaken from the Age of Legends that we've never heard of before.  If we're going to speculate that Taim's some random guy from the Age of Legends, let's keep the discussion to people who we actually know their names, OK?  If Taim's some guy reincarnated that we've never heard of before, he might as well not be anybody at all.


created: 2004-10-12 00:40:29
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
Very nice. Very nice. It all works out but...I disagree. haha. Simple as that. I disagree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> mat rules! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande! Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar! Al Ellisande!&quot;<br />&quot;Dovie'andi se tovya sagain&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-12 01:24:33
subject: <b>Tam is Moridin?</b>
body:
Mazrim was around early in book 2, and before, apparently. Rand didn't take Ishy out till the end of book 2.<br /><br />Whenever Moridin came, it was after book 2.<br /><br />Do Ishy and Moridin look alike, new bodies and all?<br /><br />Moridin has those black specks floating across his eyes, which is an obvious detail few would miss, I would believe.<br /><br />Rand was saved by Moridin in Shadar Logath-- the wanderer?-- and got a nice long look at him. I believe he'd remember his rescuers face.<br /><br />Something happened between Mazrim's capturing and his coming to face Rand. I doubt he killed any Aes'Sedai, cause there'd be a lot of talk about that. If he escaped, there'd be a lot of talk as well. And those who captured him would not let him just walk into Caemlyn. If he was captured successfully, and gentled, that'd be heard as well. Big news, like with Logain-- despite Rand. And Aes'Sedai wouldn't allow him to just come to Rand. Half of them want to gentle Rand, as is.<br /><br />It's been a few years since I read the series, and I'm re-reading them now-- if it tells how Mazrim escaped, please tell me.<br /><br />The only way Mazrim can be Moridin is if Moridin somehow killed Mazrim and took over his 'character'. And convinced the sisters holding Mazrim-- without killing them-- to keep quiet.<br /><br />---<br /><br />The theory is very well thought out, and a brilliant change to the norm. The idea is still a bit farfetched, but it's an option you can't really deny, either.


created: 2004-10-12 03:58:34
subject: <b>Why does he have to be someone else?</b>
body:
All these theories that this person, or that person is really some other person in disguise are for the most part wild speculation. Taim is Taim. <br /><br />We don't know how he escaped. Perhaps it would be nice to know, although if RJ put in all those details we would all still be reading the books. He did say in an interview that if he if put in everything he wanted then each book would be twice as long. <br /><br />Unless someone explains to me how it is that Taim is Moridin, even though we know there was a dark friend plot to free Taim before Rand kills ishy in the stone of tear, I will see no reason to think why Moridin is Taim.<br /><br />The most logical explanation for Taim's knowlege, is that he has the voice of someone from the AOL in his head. No forsaken would teach him. They fight too much amongst themselves for any of them to want another Dreadlord to compete with. Yes, they use the black ajah, but taim is much stronger than any aes sedai.<br /><br />Taim probably did go mad. Would a sane person declare himself the dragon reborn and start a war (without an outside influence like the red ajah). This is happening before everyone leaves the two rivers. The forsaken (except for ishy) are sill bound. Therefore Taim can not be any of the forsaken.<br /><br />What it comes down to is that Taim in an ignima. <br />He should be mad, but is not.<br />Should have little knowledge of Saidin and has a lot.<br />Talks like he's from the AOL.<br />So what if Taim was mad, was broken free by darkfreinds, then Graendal comes over and uses compulsion on him and he becomes her pet?


created: 2004-10-12 07:33:11
subject: <b>Taim isn't Compelled</b>
body:
<b> The most logical explanation for Taim's knowlege, is that he has the voice of someone from the AOL in his head. No forsaken would teach him. They fight too much amongst themselves for any of them to want another Dreadlord to compete with. Yes, they use the black ajah, but taim is much stronger than any aes sedai. </b><br /><br />Only a few male channelers have voices in their head; Eben &amp; Kisman apparently not according to their PoV, and it's e.g. also never indicated in Logain's case that he hears something. <br /><br />Furthermore, no one says that it has to be a voice from the AoL if a channeler hear one.<br />Actually Cadsuane states in ACoS, ch.18, that &quot;some&quot; male channelers &quot;begin to hear voices&quot; and: &quot;It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do.&quot;<br /><br />Note that Cadsuane says not just one voice, but several voices, and that these persons are mad. <br />Thus this is rather a symptom of the taint's madness(schizophrenia), than voices from real persons of another Age.<br /><br />Rand is a special case as the Dragon Reborn. <br /><br />It's more logical that Taim was trained by Ishy.<br />After all Ishy and Lanfear also wanted to train Rand who is even more powerful than Taim &amp; their enemy.<br /><br />Also Taim whose &quot;attitudes are very close to those of the Forsaken&quot; as the theory's author Kalessin said, trains without hesitation other powerful channelers, even gives private lessons for his trustful followers. <br /><br />Of course it's also said in the theory that &quot;the Forsaken have shown a reluctance to do so does make it less likely&quot; [that Taim was trained by a Forsaken]. <br />In this point the theory or the author's view is inconsistent. <br /><br />Therefore nothing speaks against the idea that Ishy would have trained Taim in the past so that he became a loyal follower of his teacher &amp; the Shadow, and can now be used very well. <br /><br />Certainly Ishy didn't teach all things, though, e.g. Taim says after Rand told him of balefire in LoC, ch.3:<br />&quot;I have never heard of this balefire, but if a Darkhound comes after me, I will find some way to kill it.&quot;<br /><br />Every AoL channeler should know balefire.<br />And if Taim admits that he is familiar with Darkhounds, he could also have said that he knows balefire, especially since Rand almost expected that he knows it.<br /><br /><b> So what if Taim was mad, was broken free by darkfreinds, then Graendal comes over and uses compulsion on him and he becomes her pet? </b><br /><br />If you compare Taim with other people who someone used Compulsion on (e.g. Morgase or Graendal's pets), it's apparent that Taim isn't under any Compulsion.<br /><br />Plus, in PoD, ch.12, Graendal thinks about her trip to Sammael's chambers:<br />&quot;A pleasant surprise to have time to find much of anything useful with al'Thor and those puppies who called themselves Asha'man constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers in the Great Hall of the Council. They had stripped it bare of what she had not taken. Dangerous puppies, all of them, especially al'Thor. And she had not wanted to risk anyone being able to draw a line from Sammael to her.&quot;<br /><br />This shows that Graendal certainly wouldn't try to Compel Taim (who is also probably much stronger in the OP than Graendal); it's too dangerous.<br /><br />It also sounds as if Graendal had not much experience with Asha'man before.


created: 2004-10-12 14:15:42
subject: <b>To add to Etzel's comment,</b>
body:
It's not like Taim's ever really needed that type of... motivation, to be 'dark', or seek power. There's no need to compel him.<br /><br />Most of the forsaken joined Shai'tan because they were jealous of Lews. Now Rand comes, proclaims himself the dragon reborn, and ruins Taim's entire hope for power. <br /><br />No one destroys people unless they're out to prove something-- and so show their power. He could have walked from Saldaea to Tear with no one the wiser. But he had to raise an army and proclaim himself the dragon. There's no word about him naming his people 'Children of the Dragon' either. That was Logain. He just wants a little D&amp;D.


created: 2004-10-12 15:06:12
subject: <b>Connection with Mierin</b>
body:
I really like this theory. Since Beidomon has a connection with Mierin, it might explain Taim's apparent fascination with Elayne. Lanfear and Ilyena have always been linked in my mind as opposites, but with their own attraction to LTT.


created: 2004-10-12 19:23:30
subject: <b>There aren't really any special cases in WoT</b>
body:
Saying that Rand has a voice in his head because he's special just doesn't fly. There's nothing to support it. <br /><br />The fact that he has a voice in his head isn't special. Cadsuane specifically stated that some male channelers do. Now, from what she said it isn't clear as to whether they each heard one voice or multiple (in English, saying that multiple people hear voices is ambiguous as to whether they each heard one voice or multiple voices or some heard one and others more), but I don't think that it really matters. Rand has only thus far had one voice in his head, but there's nothing to say that given more time with the taint he would have had more. There is the mysterious &quot;third man&quot; after all. Perhaps given more time he would have had a third voice in his head. As the taint is gone now, it'll be harder to know.<br /><br />But the fact that he has a voice in his head isn't special. Others have had them. It's LTT because Rand is LTT reborn. The taint breaks down the barriers between lives. Thus over time, LTT broke through and now lives in Rand's head. The taint explains it beautifully. What else could caues the voice? There has to be some cause. Everything in WoT follows rules. &quot;Just because&quot; doesn't come up very often. If so, it's generally a limit on channeling. It is, in and of itself, a rule. &quot;Because he's the DR&quot; isn't a rule. He needs something that actually makes him special.<br /><br />Everything follows the rules. What on earth would make Rand special? The only thing I know of that makes him special is that he is the only person to have been reborn according to prophecy. Rebirth itself is just the name of the game in WoT. Everyone gets reborn at some point as somebody. It's just that normally we don't have a clue who that was. And since the reborn person doesn't necessarily have exactly the same personality as their previous incarnation, it normally doesn't matter one speck who they were before. So, it is special that we know who Rand was in his past life, but not that he was reborn. Rebirth is normal.<br /><br />What else could make him special? He's tied to the Horn. There aren't many people that are tied to the Horn. But that won't give him a voice in his head. That just means that he's spun out at specific times to keep the Pattern on track. There's nothing there that even gives them special abilities. They just happen to already be powerful because that's how the Wheel picked them in the first place. There's <i>nothing</i> there to get a voice in anyone's head. Birgitte definitely doesn't have one.<br /><br />Rand's ta'veren. But all that means is that chance gets twisted around him. Things that were unlikely happen a lot more often. The Pattern also pushes his life in the direction it wants him to go. He's a major thread in the Pattern. But how on earth would that get a voice in his head. It won't.<br /><br />Rand's strong in the OP. But that's not exactly special. His soul is strong in the OP so he's strong in the OP as LTT or Rand or whatever life he's living. That's not going to get him a voice in his head. If it did Lanfear and Demandred and Nynaeve and a lot of other major characters would all have voices in their heads.<br /><br />I just don't see anything that makes Rand all that special. He's powerful and since he got LTT in his head he's gotten a lot of knowledge that's made him a lot more powerful and effective. But the only thing that presents itself as a possibility for causing the voice is the taint. It's well supported by the fact that other male channelers have gotten voices in their heads. But there's <i>nothing</i> that shows that Rand's special in any way shape or form that would give him a voice in his head. It's entirely a &quot;just because&quot; answer. But everything in WoT follows rules. The rules say that some male channelers that are affected by the taint get voices in their heads. And Rand's case shows us that it's the voice (and possibly voices) from their past life/lives. The taint explanation is well supported. &quot;Just because he's the DR&quot; is not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-12 21:21:51
subject: <b>Sadly, this theory is inherently flawed</b>
body:
Unfortunately for this theory, the assumption that &quot;all channelers get voices in their heads&quot; is simply DEAD wrong.  We have several instances of channelers affected by the Taint in WOT.  It affects everyone differently.  Note that Cadsuane says that SOME male channelers hear voices in their heads.  Besides, she's only saying this to get Rand off-balance, to test his strength to get an impression of him.  There are other instances of taint-related madness:<br /><br />1.  Torval, while trying to scare Narishma about the losses in training, says that one man woke up screaming about &quot;spiders crawling under his skin&quot; on the third day of training (POD, Message From the M'Hael).  NOT VOICES.<br /><br />2.  Fedwin Morr goes mad right before our eyes (POD, A Cup of Sleep).  While Rand's symptoms of hearing voices are so obvious that all the major characters have commented on it, Morr displays no such symptoms.  He reverts back to a childlike emotional state.  There is no tilting of his head to listen to voices like Rand does, just childlike behavior.  NO VOICES.<br /><br />These are the two that leap immediately to mind as Taint-induced madness not associated with hearing voices.  The Taint works in different ways.  Why isn't Rand rotting away like is usually described as a result of the Taint?  Because it works in different ways for everyone.  Some it doesn't even effect.  You can argue, one way or another, that Rand has never been affected by the Taint.  Flinn, Logain, and Narishma seem equally unaffected, and Logain has been channeling for who knows how long.  But Taim talks about his two trainees that went mad within a year, and Torval says there have been many cases of Taint-induced madness at the BT.  HOW THE TAINT AFFECTS A MALE CHANNELER IS DIFFERENT FOR EACH PERSON.<br /><br />As for Rand being different, I think it should be intuitively obvious.  He is the Dragon Reborn, after all.  Think of all the things that LTT has done for him.  He's given Rand innate knowledge of the Forsaken and their strengths and weaknesses.  He's provided new skills, such as drawing and philosophy.  Rand would be dead many times over without LTT.  I tend to believe that most of the intuitive channeling done in the first couple of books is stuff dredged from LTT's memory, such as how Rand split Ishamael's balefire in the Stone of Tear, and how he caused the earthquake to destroy the Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap in the Eye of the World...<br /><br />Even if you don't believe me about that, there are several instances where LTT helped Rand directly.  In TPOD, when Dashivan'gar shoots his &quot;bolt o' nastiness&quot; at Rand during the attack, the shield that Rand put up was from LTT.  Rand wouldn't have gotten out of that chest in LOC unless LTT had told him how to burst tied-off weaves.  I think it's clear that LTT was put inside Rand by the Pattern to serve as a sort of stop-gap mechanism, in case Rand got into situations such as those.<br /><br />If what YOU say is true, shouldn't every male channeler have intimate knowledge of the Age of Legends?  If not, why are Rand and Taim so special?  You say yourself that Rand is NOT special enough to be the only guy with a voice in his head.<br /><br />In conlcusion, I'm saying that hearing voices is simply one manifestation of the Taint.  LTT in Rand's head is a little different, however.  Rand would have been screwed on multiple occasions without LTT.  I think it is no great leap of the imagination to say that Rand is &quot;special&quot; at all.


created: 2004-10-13 01:01:44
subject: <b>Well <i>of course</i> voices are only one manifestation of the taint</b>
body:
I never said otherwise. I've merely pointed out that it is indeed the taint that causes the voices and that given that Taim's behavior, comments, attitude, etc. (in my opinion at least) must come from someone from the AoL, the taint-induced voices explain it perfectly. Given that <i>some</i> male channelers get voices in their heads and given that Rand's is obviously his past life, then it stands to reason that Taim <i>could</i> have a voice in his head that was his past life and that that past life was during the AoL.<br /><br />That's not to say that all male channelers get voices in their heads or even that all that do get AoL voices in their heads. It <i>is</i> to say that the voices are the past lives of the channelers that are thus affected and that it stands to reason that Taim could be thus affected.<br /><br />If Taim did indeed get a voice in his head from the AoL, it would explain perfectly all the oddities about his behavior and why he knows so much. And if that voice took him over it explains why Taim looks different (shave his beard and such) and acts somewhat differently than he did before (at least the implication from Bashere is that Taim is not acting like you did before). Certainly there's no reason to say that Taim <i>couldn't</i> have had a voice in his head.<br /><br />Obviously channeling tainted saidin is not a guarantee of a voice in the head, but what my theory presents is that as Taim's behavior (and in particular various comments) is that of an AoL channeler and is inconsistent with that of a third Age channeler, Taim must be from the AoL. And as there are no Forsaken that he could be, the only other way presented in the series thus far for an AoL channeler to be alive at present is by being a voice in the head of a male channeler affected by saidin. LTT is the only non-Forsaken AoL channeler to be around. <i>He</i> hasn't taken over Rand, but there's nothing to say that Taim's past life's voice didn't take over <i>him</i>. Certainly LTT has tried in the past to take over Rand.<br /><br />And given that the only way for Taim to be from the AoL was for him to have a past life's voice in his head that took him over, I then went over the male channelers from the AoL for whom we had names other than LTT and the Forsaken. I presented that of those three, only Kodam and Beidomon were really possible since Joric had gone mad and I explained why Beidomon was by far the more likely of the two.<br /><br />Given that Taim has to be from the AoL and given that the only way for that to happen is a taint-induced past life's voice in his head that took him over. Then Taim must have had a past life's voice that took him over. And given that the process of elimination left Beidomon as the only real candidate for that past voice (assuming of course that RJ gave us the info to figure out who the past life was), then logically Taim must have been Beidomon in his past life and Beidomon must have taken him over, giving us the current Taim that many thought was Demandred in disguise.<br /><br />I never said that this was what happened to all male channelers and thus it must have happened to Taim. It happens to <i>some</i>. Obviously the voices don't always take over since LTT hasn't taken over Rand and obviously the taint affects different channelers in different ways. But given the assumption that Taim must be from the AoL, the rest of the argument follows.<br /><br />The real question is whether or not you agree that Taim's behavior, comments, knowledge, etc. are incompatible with that of someone from the 3rd Age, even with the possibility of being taught by Ishamael. In my opinion and that of many others comments such as &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; and &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; (which clearly refers to Rand's Aiel if you read the passage carefully) show knowledge and attitudes that only someone from the AoL could have and that cannot be taught.<br /><br />My theory presents an explanation for how that is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-13 01:16:14
subject: <b>I guess I was a little hasty...</b>
body:
You're right, Kalessin, we pretty much come from two different schools of thought here.  Once again, I would like to say (as I've done previously in this BB) that you've organized your thoughts very well in your theory and have come up with something completely original.<br /><br />The jist of your theory is that Taim in a past life was Beidomon.  If this is true, then everything else falls into place for your theory.  Unfortunately, I can't agree.  Taim's idiosyncacies can be explained away by one of these two schools of thought:  <br /><br />1) Taim recieved his knowledge of the AOL from a past life (i.e. Beidomon).<br />2) Taim recieved his knowledge of the AOL by being tutored by a Forsaken.<br /><br />I lean towards the second one because while both are plausible explanations, the second one is much simpler and we already have an example of a 3rd Ager being tutored about the AOL by a Forsaken:  Alviarin.  It only makes sense that the same was done for Taim.  It's only natural for a 3rd Ager like Taim or Alviarin to feel envious and want to copy an AOLer, since so much knowledge has been lost since then.<br /><br />However, the only person we see that has been in any danger of losing themselves to another personality in their head is Rand, and you can refer to my above post to see why I think he is clearly a special case.  All in all, simplicity is the key to theorizing about WOT.  I feel that if we come up with extremely convoluted theories, while disregarding simpler explanations, we only confuse ourselves.<br /><br />Once again, sorry to jump all over you like that, Kalessin.  Good theory, good rebuttals to everyone's objections, it's just that I can't agree.


created: 2004-10-13 02:51:14
subject: <b>diddnt read it all but...</b>
body:
did anyone mention this:<br />     rand hears LTT-who is his past life....now...as we've seen with birgitte, she has had many past lives since the AoL so its safe to say that rands last life is from the AoL just because hes the dragon and a special case being as he couldnt be reborn till the right time so... chances are taim's last life was like birgitte's- more recently and prob isnt from the AoL. i think i made some minor point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-13 04:32:37
subject: <b>To Kalessin</b>
body:
Rand is special since he is the reborn incarnation of the immortal &quot;Dragon's soul&quot;, the Champion of the Light.<br /><br />For this I believe that the real LTT, the last personality of this soul, is in Rand's head. <br /><br />Another thing are the imagined voices some mad channelers hear. <br />That are possible symptoms of the taint's corruption which affects everybody quite differently.<br /><br />I don't see any reason why Taim should be Beidomon Reborn (besides that Taim obviously doesn't act a bit like the scientist Beidomon was). <br /><br />Plus, Taim is obviously protected of the taint by the DO, thus doesn't hear any imagined voices.<br /><br />Therefore your idea is unlikely.<br /><br /><b> The real question is whether or not you agree that Taim's behavior, comments, knowledge, etc. are incompatible with that of someone from the 3rd Age, even with the possibility of being taught by Ishamael. In my opinion and that of many others comments such as &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; and &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; (which clearly refers to Rand's Aiel if you read the passage carefully) show knowledge and attitudes that only someone from the AoL could have and that cannot be taught. </b><br /><br />Why can't Ishy have used a phrase like so-called Aiel and Taim picked it up during the training? <br />What are the &quot;many other comments&quot; Taim uses? <br />What &quot;knowledge and attitudes that only someone from the AoL could have and cannot be taught&quot; do you mean?<br /><br />And again, it's wrong that &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; refers to Rand's Aiel.<br /><br />The scene is in LoC, ch.55, at the battle at Dumai's Wells.<br />Taim explains Rand that there are still many Shaido out there and that it is quite dangerous for Rand.<br /><br />Taim tells that he &quot;lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel&quot; since the price to lose another Asha'man is much higher than killing some Shaido even if Rand's men (not just Aiel, but Two River Folk, Cairhienin and Mayeners) are secured by this.<br /><br />And as I said, also in WH, ch.6, Perrin considers: <br />&quot;The renegade Aiel had too much lead as it was, and if they were headed in any direction but south or east, someone would have brought word by this time&quot;; of course he refers to the Shaido with it.<br /><br />The term &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; is also never used by any Forsaken, so it speaks against your own logic that Taim uses phrases like someone from the AoL. <br /><br />Finally, it would even make not much sense if you call on the one hand the present Aiel, &quot;so-called&quot;, that means they aren't real Aiel.<br />But on the other hand, just &quot;renegade Aiel&quot;, that means there are normal Aiel but just fight for the wrong side.<br /><br />The term &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; fits perfectly for the Shaido, though, and thus it has nothing to do with the AoL.<br /><br />


created: 2004-10-13 12:55:06
subject: <b>I would just like to say that I enjoyed this theory very much....</b>
body:
In my eyes, it meets all the criteria for a really good theory, which begins with an original idea. Obviously extensive research was put into it, it is well thought-out, and written in an orderly fashion. <br /><br />In times past, I have nit-picked over little details in theories like this. Lately though, I have taken a much broader stance about many things. I realized that the reason a lot of people often disagree, is simply the fact that they have their own interpretation of events. <br /><br />Anyone that has read the series knows that there is indeed, something &quot;special&quot; about Taim. I myself, tend toward the belief of him being trained by a Forsaken, or maybe even two of them at different times. Most of my doubt about your idea, comes from the RJ interview that apparently downplays Beidomon as anyone of significance. But that does not lessen the plausibility of your theory at all, in my eyes.<br /><br />I would like to congratulate you on &quot;thinking outside the box&quot;, so to speak. While some may suggest that keeping it simple is the best way to write theories about the WoT, I would disagree. Most, or all of those &quot;simple&quot; ideas have already been done. Figuring out the unresolved issues in the story, is going to take innovative thinking. RJ leaves many clues and spreads them out over several books in the process. Piecing them together takes time, effort, and a good eye to spot them all. Deciphering if clues are red-herrings, is another matter altogether.<br /><br />I gave you a &quot;thumbs up&quot; for originality, and taking the time to put out a theory that was worth reading. Stirring up controversy played a big role in that decision, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-13 22:09:41
subject: <b>is it possible?</b>
body:
Could Taim have actually been killed in the White Tower? And this be the escape the black Ajah had given him. I think his body could then be used by the DO to place another soul into, giving the soul the identity of Mazrim Taim. I know its far fetch'd and weird, but I think it could have some weight. I just don't know.. so I guess I'm asking if it is possible. If any one could get back to me, 'd really appreciate it.<br /><br />Love always and forever,<br />Phoenix


created: 2004-10-14 12:41:53
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
I had mentioned the thought of Taim being Beidomon once before on the message bored and your theory did a great job of explaining it. <br />


created: 2004-10-14 20:14:53
subject: <b>I guess simple doesn't work, why?</b>
body:
What I do not understand is why everybody thinks he has to have gotten this knowledge from a source other than his own experiences. <br />First, I agree that LTT is a special situation for Rand.  He is the patterns check sum.  He is there to help Rand along the path for which the pattern has the need for the Dragon reborn.  Maybe if we say that LTT is the voice of the pattern, it might make better sense.<br />Second, I agree that various other male channelers would have heard voices caused by the Taint on the One Power.  I do not think, and there is zero proof, that these voices passed on knowledge or helped the man channel better or worse.<br />Third, We know from following the Salidar AS that many of the AS have their own tricks that they have known since childhood.  Why would male channelers be different?  We do not know how Taim grew up and all the circumstances in which he (1) first learned he could channel, (2) How he reacted and coped with knowing he could channel, (3) How much he studied and tried to learn how to channel and use the OP. (4) Taim doesn&#8217;t come across as a stupid or silly person.  I would think it is safe to assume that he did study, learn &amp; experiment with the OP after he learned he could.  I do not think he was as afraid as Rand.  He didn&#8217;t try and stop and run away, I think he accepted and tried to make the best of it. (5) He lived in the Borderlands; the danger of shadow spawn was daily.  I think I would have found a way to use my new found knowledge and power to kill shadow spawn and protect myself &amp; loved ones.  (6) He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn, he had to believe he was the Dragon Reborn to do so.  Anybody who was from the AOL would know that they were not. (6.1) A Dark Friend would not have proclaimed them selves the Dragon Reborn (they are suppose to defeat the dark one).<br />We do know that Taim grew up on the Borderlands.  We know that the Borderlands fought the Aiel.  Like I said in a previous post, the way the Aiel are acting and following one person does not jive with history or how they acted with other people.  We know only Tinkers &amp; Peddlers were allowed in the waste. They killed everybody else.  They fought amongst themselves as much if not more than they fought other people.  Before Rand tied the people of the dragon together and to follow he who comes with the dawn, who would have thought all of the Aiel on this side of the dragon wall would follow one person (exception Shaido)?  Nobody, not even most of the Aiel would have believed it.  <br />So these &#8220;so called Aiel&#8221; who are not acting like most of the world thought, wouldn&#8217;t be that intimidating to a person who knows that they could explode their skull if they felt like it.<br />So it simply comes down to this.  Taim thought he was the Dragon Reborn.  He got checked and his ego took a hit.  He got captured and escaped (how we do not know).  He showed up and took service under Rand.  Rand has him doing things that he feels is beneath him.  He feels the only person who can compete with him is Rand.  Without Rand he would be the baddest cat on the block.  He saves Rands ass at Dumia Wells.  Rand is still treating him with disrespect.  Dashiva sees the opportunity to recruit somebody for the darkside.    BAM!  Mystery solved!<br />


created: 2004-10-14 20:35:07
subject: <b>One problem......</b>
body:
If as it has been suggested Taim is Mordin how was it possible for Ishy to be fighting Rand above Flame and Taim to be leading a battle against Aes Sedi at the same time? It seems that Ishy would be a bit more worried about Rand...


created: 2004-10-15 02:29:30
subject: <b>Taim, Moridin, Dashiva</b>
body:
The Moridin=Taim people are probably assuming that after Ishy was reborn as Moridin, he assumed the Taim persona (which would explain the shaved beard, how he talks to Bashere, etc.)  However, it still holds no water...see above to the many posts dealing with this.<br /><br />As for the internal politics of the BT, IMO, Taim is an agent of Demandred (at least since Ishy got whacked in TDR).  Remember, Dashivan'gar is a minion of Shaidar Haran, and therefore Moridin (it's clear they're working together).  Dashivan'gar's purpose at the BT is to spy/take control of Taim from Demandred.  It's Moridin's first act to reign in the scheming Forsaken.<br /><br />However, Dashivan'gar's a first-class screwup, as we see throughout the next few books, and he not only doesn't manage to insinuate himself with Taim (look how disdainful Taim is of him at the beginning of ACOS), he gets picked by Rand to be in his entourage.  So the fact is, whatever Dashivan'gar was at the BT for, he failed to do it.  Whether or not Moridin profited from Dashiva's new spot as Rand's lackey is another story, but that wasn't the original plan.  Dashiva was originally based at the BT.


created: 2004-10-15 14:36:59
subject: <b>What about Sammuel?</b>
body:
We never see sammuel killed, instead rand just figures that there is no way he missed him, after being distracted. Couldn't sammuel come back as Taim? He would know AOL stuff. He doesn't want to use a sword because he fears his skill with a sword may give him away, he sends the swordmaster away because the skill of rand's swordmaster may rival sammuels own, and he was ever vain and pompous. His attitude seems to align with sammuel whose &quot;death&quot; is at least in my mind highly suspect.


created: 2004-10-15 15:56:09
subject: <b>Sammael is toast!</b>
body:
Those are RJ's own words. He was killed by Mashadar. So, no he can't be Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 18:01:54
subject: <b>I don't agree with it.</b>
body:
There are several reasons why:<br />1) I don't like theories where someone well known to the world is posing by someone - we don't have any of this in the book. All Forsaken created their NEW characters, not posing as someone already known. Taim was well known in Borderlands to risk exposure as impostor.<br />2) &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; words could be explained in different ways: a) he was long enough around Dashiva to pick up this as joke or something; b) he thinks that these Aiel are not like ravaging Aiel that open a war twenty years ago, thus &quot;so-called&quot;;<br />3) I don't see why Beidomon would suddenly appear and pose as well known False Dragon. Why? Just for fun?


created: 2004-10-15 19:24:11
subject: <b>He's not posing as Taim</b>
body:
He <i>is</i> Taim. Like Rand, Taim had his past life running around in his head thanks to the taint. It just so happens that his past life was Beidomon. At some point Beidomon managed to do what LTT has failed to do - take over. It probably occurred when Taim escaped from the AS. LTT helped Rand escape. Beidomon would surely have wanted to escape and thus would have helped Taim. Perhaps the price was that he took over. I don't know. Regardless, Beidomon took over prior to Rand meeting him. Thus, there is no masquerading other than the fact that Beidomon being in Taim's body calls himself Taim. Certainly he's more useful to the DO acting as Taim than if he goes around saying that he's Taim's past life that took him over. Everyone would think that he went bonkers.<br /><br />It's not like anyone is posing as Taim. In a sense Taim and Beidomon are the same person - they have the same soul. Just like in a sense Rand and LTT are the same person. Taim is Beidomon reborn.<br /><br />This theory explains quite well how Taim could be from the AoL without being one of the Forsaken. However, if you don't buy that Taim's comments don't make any sense for a third Ager to be saying and that Taim must be from the AoL, then you're obviously going to disagree with this theory. However, if you agree that Taim must be from the AoL, this theory gives an excellent explanation for it that follows all the facts that we've already been given without overcomplicating things. <br /><br />The main point of contention is whether or not Taim's comments, knowledge, etc. show that he must be from the AoL or whether it's reasonable to think that Taim is just plain old Taim. I don't believe that there's any possibility that Taim is just Taim and thus you have my explanation for his knowledge and behavior.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 22:39:59
subject: <b>ANY possibility?</b>
body:
Strong words, my friend.  Even I, extremely sure in my position, can accept that there is the REMOTEST possibility that Taim might be a Darkfriend channeler from another Age who took over his body, and RJ is dumb enough to insert such a poor plot device into his excellent series.<br /><br />Surely you can do the same for the MUCH more plausible theory that Taim was tutored by a Forsaken in the past and picked up such mannerisms from that.<br /><br />And if it turns out that Taim IS the mysterious Beidomon, I will eat my hat.  But until then, my hat will in my hand, waving away the stink generated by this theory.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-10-15 23:32:47
subject: <b>Strong - true</b>
body:
Perhaps that's a tad too strong. But I can't believe that Taim is just a DF. I find the evidence to the contrary to be far too strong. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Taim were just plain old Taim. Perhaps my theory is incorrect. We certainly won't know for certain until RJ says so - be it in the books or in answer to a question - but either way I'm quite certain that Taim isn't just Taim. And I find the explanation that I've given to explain how that's possible to be by far the most plausible. I suppose that saying that there's <i>no</i> possibility that Taim is just Taim is a tad strong, but I find the probability to be so slim that it might as well be. But of course that's my personal interpretation of the facts and I'm obviously not infallible. We'll just have to see who gets to eat their hat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-16 01:35:42
subject: <b>Yay!</b>
body:
Kalessin, I'm glad that you've posted this theory and that we've been able to debate on this subject.  Your post has opened up new possibilities to me, and while I still don't agree with you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />) I'm glad that we can disagree cordially.  I look forward to posts from you in the future!


created: 2004-10-17 15:13:44
subject: <b>Nice..............</b>
body:
I really like this theory, except for the whole Beidomon being reborn issue.<br /><br />If he was turned to the shadow during the AOL (which we have to assume he was), then I would have thought that the Dark One would want him to survive as he as, rather than hope he'd be reborn at the right time.<br /><br />Is it plausible that the Taim of today is the Beidomon of the AOL, and, like the Forsaken, was contained in some way:<br /><br />For some inexplicable reason, he could also have been at the Bore when it was sealed as he was connected with Mierin/Lanfear. Although I admit this is unlikely.<br /><br />He could have been stored in a Stasis box in a similar way to the Gholam which I think is fairly likely if the Dark One wanted to preserve someone until the current Age.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 15:45:43
subject: <b>Um, the rebirth was the whole point</b>
body:
Taim's behavior is that of someone from the AoL. That must be explained somehow. He can't be a Forsaken so he must be from the AoL in a different manner. Rand having LTT shows that the taint-induced voices are in fact from the previous life of that person. So, if Taim were effected that way and his previous life were during the AoL, then he would have someone from the AoL bopping around in his head. If that personality takes over then he <i>is</i> the person from the AoL (like if LTT took over Rand). Out of the possible choices (assuming that we have enough info to figure out who the past life was) Beidomon is the best. Thus, Taim is Beidomon.<br /><br />There were other Forsaken during the AoL. Only thirteen of them were captured in the Seal. Any others still alive would have died of old age. The DO <i>can</i> bring souls back from the dead, but the window that he has to grab them is only so big. He certainly can't grab anyone from the AoL, otherwise he'd bring back hoards of DF channelers. So the only ways for someone to be from the AoL are for them to have been trapped in the Seal/Bore or be reborn and show up as a voice in the head of a male channeler thanks to the taint. I <i>suppose</i> that someone could have hidden out in a statis box. But stasis boxes are quite rare and who would want to hide out in one anyways? With the Breaking there was no telling whether you'd ever get to come out again. Most are probably buried in the ocean or the depths of the earth. The gholam was thus kept, but he's shadowspawn not a DF. It's normal to keep tools in boxes, but not people.<br /><br />Regardless, if Taim is from the AoL, there are really two options and with the Forsaken one pretty much eliminated, I proposed the second as an explanation for Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-18 20:04:31
subject: <b>Disappointment Why?</b>
body:
Kalessin,  I understand that you would be disappointed if Taim is just Taim.  That doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t so.  I would be disappointed if he did turn out to be somebody else.  <br /><br />I like the idea that LTT and is Hundred Companions are being recreated.  If that is happening, why couldn&#8217;t new dread lords be recruited with the carrot being made immortal and gaining unlimited power (answering to the Great Lord of the Dark of course).  <br /><br />I mean the series is called the Wheel Of Time.  Events will be following a pattern which is repeatable.  If there weren&#8217;t anybody around to be made Dread Lords or &#8220;New&#8221; Forsaken, then that wouldn&#8217;t make sense.  <br /><br />I haven&#8217;t ever agreed with the theories that the taint weakened the barrier between old souls and new.  Plus there is absolutely zero proof that anybody else in all of Rand land hears voices from the AOL.  Rand does, because he has to.  The pattern needs him to do certain things at certain times, to create the correct environment that will enable the bore to be resealed correctly.  <br /><br />Regardless of the variable of the taint, I would assume some female would have to have had some experience with voices from the AOL, which has not happened. Having a voice from the AOL would be a blessing for some brown to go crazy and document all the data until she died.  Hell, you almost have to assume some males would have done the same.<br /><br />Beyond that anybody from the AOL would know that they are not the Dragon Reborn.  I would think by KNOWING your not the Dragon Reborn would not allow you to proclaim yourself as one.  I think you would really have to believe you&#8217;re the Dragon to buck popular opinion and have almost all the known nations want you dead.  Wasn&#8217;t it said that the pattern would continue to pop up False Dragons until the real Dragon proclaimed himself.  To do that the pattern had to make them meet minimum criteria.  The longer time went by with out the Dragon proclaiming himself, the more the pattern made the False Dragons closer to the real thing.<br /><br />I guess this will be a RAFO.  But I&#8217;ll eat my hat also if Taim isn&#8217;t just Taim.<br />


created: 2004-10-22 07:34:18
subject: <b>Ah-hah! I believe you may have found it! *claps*</b>
body:
Here's another juicy bit of info for all of you ponderers!  Beidomon might have had incentive, when helping Mierin/Lanfear with the bore.  What if Beidomon was a DF, and he tried to convince Mierin that this &quot;new power&quot; could help them.  She would get all excited, and decide to test it.  Boom.  The crack/drill in the Bore.  But who lead her to it?  Only one person mentioned who could have.  Beidomon.  Beidomon helped Mierin, thus giving the DO another Dreadlord, soon to be Forsaken, and a hole in his prison.  Any thoughts?


created: 2004-10-22 14:34:28
subject: <b>First servant</b>
body:
I think that there wasn't any darkpals b4 bore was made. Or I  assume that DO didn't have any means to communicate with people before that. In fact it is possible that Mierin somehow became first of those. Or there is a possibility that she sold her &quot;soul&quot; and that would explain why she survived. If that didn't happen and she survived for some other reason then I think that first of servants of DO in Randland was Ishmael and he became that some time later. Or when he had time to understood what had happened. After all nobody seemed to understand real nature of DO b4 he published his theory about eternal battle between DO and Creator.


created: 2004-10-24 18:54:43
subject: <b>The world of dreams</b>
body:
How about if Taim was a dude tied to the wheel, as a hero, and taken out by one of the forsaken? I mean, it happened to Birgitte, so why couldn't it have happened to Taim?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wouldn't it have been funnier if JFK had gone to Hamburg?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-27 22:55:46
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I agree with the idea of the taint breaking down the barrier between incarnations... but Beiodomon... I can't see the two personalities (what we know as Taim and what we know as B.) resolving as one.<br /><br />B was a scientist, Taim a... not really a warrior... but not a scientist. If B. were still alive and kicking, albeit in a new body, he would probably want to continue his research. Maybe not on the DO, but on another project he had back in the day. Or he might feel guilt that his actions lead to the release of the DO.<br /><br />I very much doubt he would start hatin on the guy who's going to fix his mistake, unless that's why he proclaimed himself as the Dragon, to fix his AoL mistake... but that's a side track.<br /><br />Once he knew he wasn't the DR and Rand was, he would have done all he could to help Rand.<br /><br />But, you say, if he were turned against his will...<br /><br />To that I say he'd still be acting on his own persona. B would have gone to being a DF research and development guy. Think about it, parading the new and improved trolloc line for fall 998?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-01 01:23:52
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I read this theory and felt i had to register and post a comment <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />I like the theory and aggree that he could be Beidomon re-born. For those who's saying that the taint affects people differently, yes that's true. But i think that eventually the taint will cause all channelers to hear voices. The point here is that some minds are too weak to handle the taint before it gets the chance to tear down the wall between lives. Thus they go insane before hearing voices.<br />Also, who's to say other channelers don't already hear voices, they just don't go around telling anyone else about it.<br /><br />Though i also think it's possible that Taim got killed and someone got placed in his body by the DO.<br /><br />Another thing I would like to comment on is that you said that LTT voice is mad inside Rands head. But i disaggree here as Ishy healed LTT's mind before LTT killed himself. Thus he's not mad. (unless of course killing himself by drawing too much of saidin made him go mad again).


created: 2004-11-07 23:04:18
subject: <b>Black threads</b>
body:
Now bear with me Im doing this in a rush and without having read the books since CoT coming out.  Now whenever Rand has faced a male Forsaken the precense of the black threads which give them protection from the taint has always been there.  Im pretty sure of this fact however if u find evidence to the contrary... I apologize for wasting your time.  What im trying to get at is that if Taim is a  DF who is under the protection from the DO would Rand not have noticed the threads?  Now i know what your thinking Asmodean was under Rands nose for quite a while and Rand never saw anything, however Asmodean wasn't channeling around Rand until the battle in Rhuidean in which rand cut him off from the DO.  Now the only other instance that we are 100 percent sure that rand has been around a DF male channeler  is Dashiva who obviously channeled around Rand quite a bit.  Rand never saw anything.  Now that leaves us with two possiblities.<br /><br />1. Dashiva after being given a second chance was not given protection from the DO in light of the fact he was gonna be in constant contact with Rand.<br /><br />2. There is a way to hide the threads in which case u can throw my whole theory out the window cause Taim can be doing the same.<br /><br /> Now if 1 is true then my theory sticks and Taim can't be under the protection of the DO.   Feel free too punch has many holes in my theory has u like .  Im only now just getting interested in this Theory Post and hopefully this is the first of many times I post here.  Next time I'll do my homework the right way and have more in the way of support to back my ideas.<br /><br />   Also I apologize in advance if this idea has been brought up already.


created: 2004-11-08 01:50:30
subject: <b>Sorry, but no</b>
body:
The black cords of the Forsaken are seen only under very special circumstances.  One is the Skimming Place, when Rand sees Asmo.  It is questionable whether or not Asmo is even holding the Source when Rand first sees the cords, because he can't sense it.  (Does one need to maintain the Source while Skimming?  But that's a tangent.)  Second, while fighting Ba'alzamon (Ishy) in T'A'R.  However, there are differences -- Rand sees two cords on Asmo, while only one on Ishy.  Go figure.<br /><br />As for your other point, that Osan'gar doesn't have Taint protection, in WH, when Graendal says that the DO might not trust the male channelers as much if the taint is removed, Osan'gar and Aran'gar pretty much crap their pants (or skirts, i guess, in Halima's case...)  So Osan'gar clearly has Taint protection.  Therefore, the black cords can't be seen except in T'A'R and the Skimming place, and since Rand saw neither Taim nor Osan'gar in either of those places, he couldn't know if they were Taint protected.<br /><br />Good thoughts, but... no.


created: 2004-11-28 14:47:21
subject: <b>at last</b>
body:
finally we have an original taim theory that is either dead, unsupported or taimandred (and therefore dead<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 01:00:30
subject: <b>My thoughts exactly...</b>
body:
Kalessin - I have to apologise.  I wrote almost this exact theory as a comment to the post &quot;Taim is not Demandred's Proxy&quot; before I realised your post exists.  This has seemed so obvious to me that I couldn't work out why people were still talking about Taim being anything but, now we know for sure he's not Demandred.  I hadn't stopped to think who he might be though from the AoL, and I really like your idea that he's Lanfear's helper.


created: 2005-02-15 23:10:30
subject: <b>looks good</b>
body:
but on an extremely unlikely side note, a female forsaken could put up a mask with the power. but, then they cant fake channeling saidin, can they...so, its good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-03 09:48:38
subject: <b>Thus, thus, thus</b>
body:
I couldn't help noticing how many times you used the word &quot;thus&quot;... A LOT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-01 08:03:46
subject: <b>Beidomon not a Dark Friend or Forsaken in AoL.</b>
body:
Beidomon is not a DF or Forsaken in AoL. Robert Jordan answered that question on Jordan/TOR site in the Question of the Week section.<br /><br />http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html<br /><br />Question: <br /><br />Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?<br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium (disgrace arising from exceedingly shameful conduct) increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.<br /><br />As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore&#8212;I have heard the theory advanced&#8212;of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-02 04:38:34
subject: <b>What RJ said has little impact on this theory</b>
body:
The first part of the theory explains that Taim has been taken over by his past life personality from the AoL. Who that past life was is irrelevant to the fact that its voice in his head took him over.<br /><br />The second portion assumes that we have enough clues to figure out who that AoL personality was and looks over the candidates. My conclusion was that Beidomon was the best candidate. <br /><br />Taim appears to be a DF and which implies that his AoL past life was a DF also. But that isn't prerequisite. It's possible that he became a DF in the Third Age, be it willingly or by a circle of thirteen AS and thirteen myrdraal.<br /><br />The fact that Beidomon was not a DF is not irrelevant, but it does <i>not</i> say that he can't be Taim. It just means that if Beidomon is Taim then he must have become a DF in the Third Age.<br /><br />Given what RJ said, Beidomon may have killed himself before he got the chance to turn to the Dark Side. Certainly given his eagerness for recognition he seems a prime candidate for being a Forsaken. It's quite similar to Mesaana in fact. Even with what RJ said we don't know whether Beidomon would have become a DF given the chance, only that he didn't become one.<br /><br />Many have taken RJ's statement to mean that Beidomon is irrelevent. But if that's so, why does he refuse to say whether or not Beidomon is anyone in the Third Age? Normally reincarnation is irrelevant since the past life's personality and knowledge is not present in the mind of the Third Ager. However, in the case of a tainted-effect male channeler, his past personality can become present his mind just as LTT has with Rand. If that did not happen with Beidomon, then it is of no importance whether or not he was reborn and there would be little reason for RJ to give a RAFO. If Beidomon was indeed reborn and end up as a voice in a male channeler's head, then RJ would give us RAFO just as he's done. That he has given us such a RAFO is no proof, but I think that it's a strong indication that Beidomon was indeed reborn and has indeed been running around in a male channeler's head.<br /><br />I still hold that Taim is Beidomon. But regardless of whether I'm right or not, RJ's statement proves nothing. It just gives us more background on Beidomon and reveals that if he's Taim, then he became a DF in the Third Age and not the AoL.<br /><br />As such, RJ's statement is informative but does nothing to prove this theory right or wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 03:15:30
subject: <b>This has been bugging me for years...</b>
body:
... so I have to ask:  How can anyone possibly believe that Taim's acquired his attitude towards the Aiel from a Forsaken tutor?<br /><br />Yes, it's true that a student will take on the attitudes of a teacher, especially a strong-willed teacher.  However, to effect this kind of deep change requires a great deal of time.  If Taim is simply a man from the third age, he would have grown up thinking of the Aiel as savage warriors.  He would have been 8 or 9 when the Aiel war began and possibly have known people (possibly even his father) who fought in it.  Even if he was later told that the original Aiel were pacifists, it is unlikely that his original concept of them would be easily shaken.<br /><br />As an example, we as WOT readers have learned the same truth about the Aiel, but how many of us still think of Aiel as dangerous desert warriors?  I know I do.  We know they once followed the Way of the Leaf, but our original concept of them has not been invalidated.  We don't ourselves refer to characters like Rhuarc or Bael as &quot;so-called Aiel&quot;, or even think of them that way.<br /><br />For Ishamael (the only viable candidate to be this alleged tutor) to imprint his concept of Aiel into Taim's psyche would require a very long association, during which they would need to converse at length outside of pure training sessions.  I can't even accept the idea that Ishamael would have taken the time to teach a third age channeler a few tricks, let alone that he would sit around reminiscing about the AOL with him.<br /><br />I don't know if I think Taim is Beidomon reborn, but the &quot;voice in the head&quot; theory is the best explanation I've seen for Taim's extensive channeling knowledge.  Far more likely than the idea that Ishamael spent a few months teaching him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-08 17:52:14
subject: <b>Not posing, but ...</b>
body:
AS far as I have seen, RJ never said that Demandred is not Taim.<br />He said that Demandred is not posing as Taim, and that is not necessarily the same.<br />If there was no Taim previously, theer would be no Taim to pose as.<br />Demandred, when he broke lose, simply took the name of Taim, and posed as a False Dragon. <br />That's why he reacts so sourly to all honours Rand gives him, just like he did in the AoL.<br />To make sure that even his closest mates do noe suspesct who he is, he appears before them as Demandred and as Taim, i.e. &quot;poses as&quot; Demandred, giving slightly different orders.<br />


created: 2006-08-03 23:13:15
subject: <b>I was thinking along those lines too</b>
body:
It explains &quot;so-called Aiel,&quot; plus his change in appearance.  Bashere wasn't 100% convinced that he was Taim right away, until he mentioned the nobles turned servants.  I'm not sure who he is, but a voice taking over fits.<br /><br />It's possible that he is just plain old born in Saldea in the 3rd age Mazrim Taim, and that he ws taught by Ishy, but it just doesn't feel right to me.


created: 2004-10-14 21:21:36
subject: <b>Intriguing</b>
body:
I'm intrigued by the analogy of stilling and shielding. You're right in that they do seem remarkably similar. But I don't believe that anyone will use the Choedan Kal to still the Dark One. I think Fel was right when he surmised that not even the Dragon can recreate the DO's prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-14 23:07:48
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
well, not the Dragon <i>alone</i>, bobsledai, but possibly the Dragon <i>and a woman</i>. great theory. might just come true.


created: 2004-10-15 02:20:36
subject: <b>Properties of cuendillar</b>
body:
If the seals of the DO's prison are breaking due to a 3000-year old &quot;weakening,&quot; why aren't other cuendillar objects breaking all over the place?  After all, the skills to make cuendillar were lost after the Breaking, so we must assume that all the heartstone objects we see floating around must be from the AOL.  None of them break (such as when Jeaine Caide balefires the heartstone relics in Tanchico).  Surely somebody would have noticed the weakening heartstone and the value would have gone down.  (Remember that the Wisdom in Tear tells the Wondergirls about the fisherman who found the heartstone objects and is now rich.)<br /><br />There is a slight discrepancy on RJ's part when it comes to the seals and their real nature as cuendillar.  In TEOTW, Lan bashes the broken seal with his knife, and the knife breaks in two, despite it being &quot;the best steel from Tear&quot;.  However, in FoH, one of the Salidar Six (I forget which) breaks a seal fragment in half with her bare hands while reprimanding Nyn and Elyane about it.  Since this seems to be an RJ slipup, I don't know whether this hurts or helps your theory...thoughts anyone?


created: 2004-10-15 07:23:24
subject: <b>Other cuendillar objects...</b>
body:
...have not been serving as focus points for anything, so naturally they haven't been immersed in saidin for 3000 years. The seals have.<br />


created: 2004-10-15 07:23:54
subject: <b>Some great points</b>
body:
Especially in the first two paragraphs.<br /><br />I disagree, though, that Rand &amp; a female channeler will use the Choedan Kal to repair the DO's prison.<br /><br />It's always said that the Dragon will face the DO at TG, and that only he can defeat the Shadow. <br />The Dragon Reborn is an unique factor in the pattern; that's the point of the WoT story. <br />Otherwise also another strong channeler (e.g. Logain) could use the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />Because of the Dragon's uniqueness, I believe that Rand alone will personally have to do something at SG.<br /><br />Don't know exactly what will happen of course, but probably it has to do with the Dragon's Soul, which, by the way, also seems to have a connection to the Creator who normally doesn't interfere (I believe it was the Creator's voice in the end of EotW).


created: 2004-10-15 08:47:32
subject: <b>Too much depends on analogy</b>
body:
Although your theory about the weakening of Cuendillar does give a reason that the seals (and nothing else made of heartstone) are weakening, it is predicated far too greatly on the similarities Cuendillar has with steel.<br /><br />If what you say is true, then you could make heartstone in such a way that it is fairly weak, i.e. by not cooling it quickly.  I'm not sure that that makes sense given what we know of Cuendillar.  Besides, it is an argumentative fallacy to note a similarity between two objects and then to extrapolate other similarities from it.  If it is so like steel, why did they never make Cuendillar weapons etc.?<br /><br />Similarly, I feel you assert too blithely that the DO's prison is akin to being stilled.  Granted, OP users can touch the Power and the DO can touch the world through the Bore, but I'm not sure the comparison bears the weight you want to put on it.  For instance, if being in the Prison = being stilled, then drilling the Bore = healing someone who is stilled, only on a much bigger scale.  The Forsaken were intimately familiar with the DO and his power.  They were trapped by the Seal place over the Bore themselves.  Basically, they know the DO's situation as well as anyone can, but all of them are/were sure that severing could not be healed.  Not that this is conclusive; as RJ loves to remind us, even peon characters know that the Forsaken are not omniscient.  Nevertheless, you need more support for your theory.<br /><br />I truly enjoyed your theorizing and urge further thought along these lines, but I believe, as others have argued, that the Dragon will seal the Prison back up by himself.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2004-10-15 12:22:05
subject: <b>Tempering, Stress Relieving apply to most metals</b>
body:
Fisher King -<br /><br />While I drew on the steel making process for the analogy, because of the familiarity of people with this process for hardening iron by creating an alloy, as well as the similarity in the weaves required for cuendillar, the processes mentioned above are applicable to most metals and alloys. Copper, brass, aluminum, steel, etc can all be softened (or given other properties) by heating them, and then cooling them at different rates (to temper, anneal, relieve stress, age harden, etc.) Most metals share these properties (I don't know if all do), so it is not inappropriate to extrapolate this to a new metal which we know shares some properties (the weaves are basically creating an iron alloy).<br /><br />So while I may be wrong, I do not feel that, as a theory, the comparison is invalid on its face.


created: 2004-10-15 13:11:20
subject: <b>Rethinking the seal</b>
body:
I had a thought while reading this, what if in order to seal off the Dark One's conduit to the world they need to seal off the True Source.


created: 2004-10-15 13:34:37
subject: <b>Analogies</b>
body:
I do not question your expertise in metalworking.  I think that you have provided a very thoughtful account in comparing Cuendillar to most metals.  All I am arguing is that at a certain point the similarities break down, depriving the analogy of its prime argumentative force.  <br /><br />If the connection between heartstone and metal you posit is largely valid, then it should be possible to &quot;reheat&quot; and then suddenly &quot;cool&quot; the seals in order to strengthen them again (at least with the unbroken ones) - just as metal can be reforged or retempered.  This would be a lot easier than doing the whole Last Battle thing.  Granted, it would just postpone the inevitable, but Rand could always designate a bunch of Aes Sedai and Asha'man to keep &quot;reheating&quot; the suckers every so often.<br /><br />Also, what do you think would happen if the remaining seals were placed in a vacuole?<br /><br />Just curious.<br /><br /><br />TFK<br /><br />


created: 2004-10-15 15:54:17
subject: <b>Analogies</b>
body:
Fisher King<br /><br /> - good point about retempering the cuendillar. i don't think the RJ would let that happen at this point - just gets too complicated. so i'd have to agree that at some point the analogy does break down. i'm still partial to the idea, however, that the seals softened as described, in part because I'm partial to the idea that the plan was doomed as a result of the ignorance of the AS of the age of legends. something poetic about their arrogance about their abilities, combind with their ignorance resulting in an doomed solution.<br /><br />even if it were possible to retemper the discs, however, the DO could not be completely resealed, since several of the disk are broken at this point. they would have to destroy all the discs (clear the rubble) and start over. even during the age of legends this plan was thought as likely to fail as succeed, due to the difficulty of placing the seals.<br /><br />so where does it leave us. hopefully with a RAFO, but probably with a, we'll never know. is the failure the result of the seals themselves, or the chaos in the world (the other likely theory as far as i'm concerned)? i'm partial to this one, because it drops some of the metaphysical stuff in terms of a scientific-like explanation. RJ seems to prefer approaches with some link to what we would term reality...


created: 2004-10-16 00:26:04
subject: <b>to the fisher king, good point, but</b>
body:
you assume that someone in WoT-land would have this knowledge of the cuendillar, and thats exactly one of the authors points, that no one has studied cundillar over a very long period


created: 2004-10-16 07:44:45
subject: <b>could be</b>
body:
by the way this theory brings to mind that this story ahs one unsung hero (or at least taveren) that happens to be an excellent blacksmith!<br /><br />will the wolf boy teach the channelers their duty? this will go along the lines of &quot; ...led by babes&quot;<br /><br />interesting if unlikely<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 08:43:56
subject: <b>Answer from a chemist</b>
body:
You are drawing heavily on the steel analogy, but I don't think you are explaining it properly. First, additions of other metals are only made to the highest (and most expensive)forms of steel. Most forms of steel only have natural trace pollutions of other metals. <br />Second, air is not added to the metal, but is used to remove superfluous amounts of carbon (common to nearly all iron ores) by burning.<br />Last I should like to make a point about WOT: you seem to assume cuendillar has to be made from iron, but I cannot remember any quotes stating that as a fact. You should provide them if you want to uphold your theory, but for the moment I'll vote no.


created: 2004-10-23 10:39:04
subject: <b>Liked your ideas</b>
body:
about the nature of cuendillar, however i think that your assertion that Rand will use the Choedan Kal to defeat the dark one is a bit too simple to really count as a theory.<br /><br />As RJ has made such a big deal about them throughout the series it's obvious that they are important. In fact weren't they first created for the very purpose you are suggesting?? However they have just been used to cleanse the taint and so i am doubtful that they will be used to reseal the bore.<br /><br />Everything has to go back to the way it was before the AOL and so resealing the bore isn't going to be a good enough ending for the series. Maybe he will try it and then, as the AOL Aes Sedai feared, something very bad will happen. <br /><br />I will be very dissapointed if you turn out to be correct.


created: 2004-10-30 16:56:54
subject: <b>everyone thinks that a new age of legends is going to come again</b>
body:
Hoewever I dont think so. The Age of Legends is basicly the time it takes one spoke of the Wheel to turn The breaking ushured in a new age but as the the opening of each book states an age is basicly forgotten when it comes again however AOL is fairly prevelent in the common theology of the day. <br /><br />LTT was not the first Dragon nor incarnation of his soul. The DO keeps saying that many times before LTT/Rand has served him and will again. If we assume that LTT comes back at least once an age just in the nick of time then there are more incarnations of LTT that are not remembered. The next age will be an age come again not going backwards but forward. Like Perrin and the Wolves it was a think older than the AOL. Many of the new things like Mins viewings could have been more common in an age before the AOL. Even less remains of the time before that.<br /><br />Anyone thinking that we will have a return to AOL is going to be disappointed.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-09 16:26:28
subject: <b>PLEASE CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG</b>
body:
WHEN RAND CLEANSED SAIDAN DIDNT ONE OF THE ANGREAL TO USE THE GIANT STATUE SA ANGREAL GET DESTROYED???


created: 2006-03-20 07:25:20
subject: <b>The female Choedan Kal is BURNT!!!</b>
body:
I seem to recall very clearly that Nynaeve's use of the ACTUAL Sa'angreal 'Woman with a sphere' on Tremalking MELTED that sphere!!!<br /><br />Even if the access key could be repaired, what use would it be??? The Sa'angreal that the Choedan Kal taps is melted too! Who's going to fix this???<br /><br />Please spread the news, I've read a lot of posts over the last three days (been catching up) and the supposed repairing of the Choedan Kal is mentioned by a LOT of people....<br /><br />Sorry, that ain't gonna happen it seems <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-10-14 21:27:57
subject: <b>It never occured to me</b>
body:
I'm surprised this has never occured to me, nor to anyone else. I've never seen this in a theory before nor on the wot mb. But it definitely merits looking into. People always talk about how &quot;RJ always does this&quot; or &quot;RJ always does that&quot;, but this time, I think you may have hit on something where we can honestky use that argument for this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 01:53:30
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
But, if Romanda and Lelaine came to some begrudging agreement (which I think is exactly what it would be), it wasn't until sometime after Egwene was raised, after LoC, and the little direct POVs we get from both of them in the Chapter &quot;When Battle Begins&quot;:<br /><br />&quot;In her room in the Little Tower, Romanda poured mint tea for three other Sitters, only one a Yellow.  The room was in the back, but the sounds of festival penetrated; Romanda ignored them studiously.  These three had been ready to support her for the Amyrlin Seat; voting for the girl had been as much a way to keep Lelaine from being raised as anything else.  Lelaine would burn if she ever knew that...Frowning, she wondered what was keepng Delana...Delana would just have to catch up when she came.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;In a house halfway across Salidar, Lelaine was serving chilled wine to four Sitters, only one from her own Blue Ajah, Saidar laced the room against listeners.  The sounds of celebration made her smile.  The four women with her had suggested she try for the Amyrlin Seat herself, and she had not been reluctant, but a failure would have meant Romanda being raised instead, which would have pained Lelaine as much as being exiled.  How Romanda would gnash her teeth if she ever learned they had all voted for the child just to keep the stole from Romanda's own shoulders...Lelaine began to wonder where Delana was...&quot;<br /><br />Right after these two little POVs, we have one from Siuan, who is with Lelaine, and one from Nynaeve (rather than Leane here), who is with Romanda.  They are both working towards persuading the two to move their butts (and thus everybody elses) out of Salidar and on towards the Tower.<br /><br />But what's Delana up to, and what part does she play in possibly bringing Lelaine and Romanda together into some uneasy discord later on?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 03:18:38
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
I always appreciate a possible twist to look out for even if it turns out wrong. You could be right and I'd enjoy finding out not totally thrown off and dissappointed at not even considering it. Well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 04:37:17
subject: <b>Works for me</b>
body:
I like this theory because I always thought it odd that 2 Aes Sedai with the shared conviction to end up as part of the Salidar crew could be so absolutely opposed on everything.  The possibility that they are just power mad is much more 'in character' to my mind!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Lord of the Morning.  It's not much of a job, but I get the afternoons off.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 04:50:34
subject: <b>Would be a nice twist.</b>
body:
Thumbs up for the good idea!<br /><br />Though as MJJ Sedai pointed out, at least in LoC we see in their PoV, that they don't work together.<br /><br />Also if I remember correctly they e.g. voted differently regarding declaring war against Elaida in PoD, which indicates that they also don't work together then (while they both vote for negotiating with the BT in CoT, ch.19, which would fit with your view).<br /><br />And as far as I know, Halima ordered Delana to increase strife between the two factions.<br /><br />So, if Romanda &amp; Lelaine work together in CoT, it must be a quite new thing.<br />What changed their mind in this case?


created: 2004-10-15 07:19:45
subject: <b>All well and good, but...</b>
body:
...the thing that allows Leane and Siuan to pull their little scheme through is the fact that they can lie. Romanda and Lelaine can't lie, therefore it must be much more difficult for them to publicly disagree with each other if they really don't.


created: 2004-10-15 09:43:37
subject: <b>I liked it, but Etzel &amp; MJ got me thinking</b>
body:
What if it is Halima through Delana getting them to act this way?<br /><br />The POV's MJ showed us show that these 2 loathe each other.<br /><br />But, Halima, sewing chaos as per the DO diktat, could play them against each other much as Suian &amp; Leanne played Sheriam &amp; Co like a bass fiddle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 10:40:06
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
i always thought that the animosity was too blatant to be anything BUT false.  if it had been mentioned in passing, then maybe iw ould have skimmed over it.  but it's talked about so much that i figured it was a big fat lie.<br /><br />-pepper.


created: 2004-10-15 12:44:07
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
Very interesting, you've made me think.  However, I have to agree that if Lelaine and Romanda are working together, it can only be during COT.  I bring your attention to the War Vote in PoD.  Lelaine votes for the war, dragging along one of her little followers, and this brings the vote to the greater consensus.  (This is, of course, before Egwene pulls her trump card.)  But when Sheriam asks for the remainder to stand to honor the greater consensus, Romanda says flat-out, &quot;You won't get it.&quot;<br /><br />Romanda and Lelaine are all across the board, but they are generally opposing each other from when we first see them in book 6 onwards (like at the War Vote, for instance, Lelaine for and Romanda against).  To be helping each other this whole time, especially with the POV's we see from them in LOC, one of them would have to be BA.<br /><br />BUT!  Let's look at COT for a sec.  What do they do in COT?  They vote together in the BT vote, but what else?  Egwene reveals to Romanda that she's going to merge the WT with the Kin.  Romanda is aghast, saying that she's lived as Aes Sedai and she will die as Aes Sedai.  Romanda is obviously horrified by the idea and storms out.<br /><br />A bit later, Lelaine comes in.  The polar opposite from Romanda's fury, she is all collected and smiles.  But she's not very nice, she is rather disdainful to Egwene, and offers up a number of veiled threats.  This is a blatant change from Egwene's description of Lelaine's &quot;grudging respect&quot; for her after the War Vote incident.  What caused this change?  I think that Romanda went running to Lelaine and told her about Egwene's plan.  It's clear that Romanda, at least, thinks that this would destroy the Tower.<br /><br />If Romanda and Lelaine put aside their hatred on this issue, at least, and agreed that something needed to be done, they might have agreed that Egwene needed to be taken out of the picture, or at the very least discredited.  If Egwene's plan to block the harbor failed, and Aes Sedai were captured as a result, then Egwene would certainly go down in the Hall's eyes, they might even conclude that Egwene as Amyrlin is too weak to make the important War decisions that Amyrlins are supposed to make.  I think that Romanda and Lelaine's new &quot;alliance,&quot; or belief in a common threat to the Tower, would cause them to betray Egwene's plan.<br /><br />And what about the five &quot;old&quot; sitters for the Tower?  Read the WOTFAQ about the Salidar sitters and it's clear that these five (Varilin, Takima, Magla, Faiselle and Saroiya) are somehow working with the Tar Valon Ajah Heads.  These five are the ones to vote AGAINST war, FOR negotiations with Elaida, and AGAINST a rapport with the BT.  Yeah, they're up to something.  But look at this:  Each of those five have attached themselves to either Lelaine or Romanda, as part of their little inner circles.  Looks to me like they're trying to deadlock the Hall even further by further polarizing Lelaine and Romanda.  If Lelaine and Romanda included these five into any plan to stop Egwene (a logical decision because these five are the most anti-Egwene in the camp), it would be only too simple for these Sitters to contact Elaida or anyone in the Tower.<br /><br />Thoughts anyone?


created: 2004-10-15 12:47:18
subject: <b>Thank you MJJ Sedai</b>
body:
The only reason I didn't use those quotes in my own theory, is that I couldn't find them.  I think they prove my point, not disprove it.  If they really are working against eachother, why would either be especially angry/frustrated if the other stopped them from becoming Amyrlin?  In fact, if they disagreed on so much, wouldn't they be surprised if the other stood for them?<br />I am by NO means saying they like eachother, but you don't have to like someone to work with them.<br /><br />As for Etzel's comment about standing for the war, we know that neither of them knew the Law of War well enough to know what Egwene was after, and at this point they both still thought her a girl and a puppet.  So this would just be another situation, in their eyes, to reinforce their farce, and make people think they're against eachother at no real cost to them.


created: 2004-10-15 13:39:44
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
This also fits with the whole Ajah Heads conspirasy. I'm referring to the way the greens, whites, yellows, browns and grays seem to have split their sitters between the Halls in the Tower and in Salidar, likely in an attempt to control both. Lelaine is a Blue, Romanda a yellow, bet she was not part of this plan, because no one expected her to come out of retirement. Perhaps these two have kept the Tower ajah heads from controlling the rebels.<br /><br />In any case, I enjoy seeing minor characters suddenly show more competence than an upstart like Egwene attributes to them. Now, with Egwene captured, maybe they'll play a more important role.<br /><br />


created: 2004-10-15 17:45:46
subject: <b>A nice addition to TP</b>
body:
We don`t know for sure, but I tend to agree with MJJ and Etzel. <br /><br />Also, with Romanda coming out of retirement (a Yellow), and Lelaine, an original Sitter, (a Blue) both wanting the Amyrlin Seat, it doesn`t ring true. <br /><br />The Blues and Yellows are historically at loggerheads over some age-old problem.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 18:12:37
subject: <b>There is a difference</b>
body:
Suan and Leane don't fight over the course of actions, as Romanda and Lelaine do. Suan and Leane just &quot;dislike&quot; each other, &quot;poking&quot; each other, or fighting over spy network or news from the spies. But not the course of actions!


created: 2004-10-16 00:42:22
subject: <b>der morat me, I'm not sure I understand</b>
body:
I voted a thumbs up for this, but I think the POVs we get from Lelaine and Romanda in LoC clearly show that they were not working together at that time.  These are the only POVs we get from those two, and I think the point was to show that they were indeed still at logger-heads (as Jofraz says of their ajahs in general) at this point.<br /><br />However, as others have pointed out so well, as of CoT, there should be a great deal of doubt in the reader's minds as to whether this is still the case.  The implication is that they may have come to some sort of a temporary truce, and have formed an alliance (albeit an uneasy one) in opposition to Egwene, who has proven to be nothing like the easily manipulated puppet they assumed she would be.<br /><br />I think Lelaine and Romanda may have come to this truce on their own eventually, or close to it.  But just as Alviarin and Mesanna subtly aided and played upon Elaida's weaknesses (her hatred of Siuan and Moiraine and her own personal thirst for power and unbending belief that only she could effect events as they should be effected), so have Halima and Delana aided and played upon Lelaine's and Romanda's &quot;pressure points&quot;, if you will.<br /><br />Whether L and R are involved with the Sitter conspiracy or not is yet to be revealed.  I think Siuan solving her little puzzle, and Siuan's decisions and actions once she knows that Egwene has been captured (Siuan knows full well what Egwene was going to do at the end of CoT) is going to be crucial to the outcome of all this.  And the Sitter conspiracy may very well end up being a major boon for uniting the Tower in any case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-16 13:04:17
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
I like it a lot. I never thought of it. They seem to always show up at the same time. Maybe they plan it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-16 15:23:46
subject: <b>Remember it's not just sitters in the conspiracy...</b>
body:
I think the Ajah heads chosen after the Tower split are, like the Sitters, all too young - we know for sure that Myrelle is at least.<br /><br />Of course, this is probably so they'll be willing to step down once the Tower is re-united. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-10-16 17:09:01
subject: <b>I agree with MJJ Sedai and others</b>
body:
What little evidence you have given is not backed up by logic.  You make too many leaps for what you have.  Also, if they were working together, Delanan would not be frantic about supporting both factions-Lelaine and Romanda would know she was playing both sides of the fence.<br />Woody


created: 2004-10-16 18:38:34
subject: <b>Lelaine/Romanda + Ajah Heads</b>
body:
I think it's unlikely that Lelaine and Romanda, if they are working together, know about the Ajah Head's scheming.  Remember, Romanda was the wildcard that came out of retirement post-Tower-schism, so she wasn't even present for the events in the Tower.  And even if Romanda is the Yellow Ajah Head with the SAS, she probably doesn't know about the TV Ajah Head's scheming.<br /><br />What about the Blue Ajah?  Why does Lelaine lead a faction?  Is it simply because she's strong in the Power?  We don't really know a lot about Lelaine, actually.  I always figured that Anaiya was the Blue Head in Salidar, but if she was, did she know about the TV Ajah Head's plot to fix the Hall?  If she did, what the heck was she doing with the Salidar Six?  I think that the Blue Ajah was excluded from the plotting of the Ajah Heads, and it's only the &quot;non-aligned&quot; colors (everything but Red and Blue) who are planning to fix the split in the Tower.  Therefore, Lelaine shouldn't know about the plans, either.<br /><br />From how the old Sitters from the Tower have attached themselves to Lelaine and Romanda, I think that they've been trying to keep the factions in Salidar polarized, so when the Ajah Heads in Tar Valon present a solution to the divided SAS, they will leap at the chance to restore order.<br /><br />That's my two cents...thoughts anyone?


created: 2004-10-17 16:36:01
subject: <b>Agree=Aging Computer</b>
body:
The Blues and Reds are not in on AH plot. Therefore Lelaine would not know. Neither would Romanda because she came out of retirement.<br /><br />As for the 2 agreeing on talking with the Asha`man, remember that everyone thinks the Forsaken have a new weapon, and the AS have no way to counter that amount of the OP alone.<br /><br />There remains the possibility that in CoT, they could have grudgingly joined together in a plot to depose Egwene, but with Egwene in TV, all these plots and sub-plots are going to be exposed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 18:02:00
subject: <b>Nice <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I agreed from the get go, only if you start in CoT.  Otherwise, they are still bitter at each other for raising Eggy just so the other wouldn't have been raised.  <br /><br />After declaring war, they probably saw that Eggy was a force to be reconed with.  This would have made them start playing their little &quot;game&quot;.<br /><br />I enjoyed it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-04 01:53:11
subject: <b>Just one little point...</b>
body:
The thought is rather clever, actually.  I would have actually jumped at the POV remarks and dismissed this theory except for the fact that I just happened to be re-reading aCoS right now, and a line jumped out at me in what I'd just read tonight -<br /><br />(Paperback, pp 267-268, An Oath) &quot;Lelaine had a warm smile when she chose to use it.  Siuan  said they had been friends once -  Lelaine had accepted her back with some version of welcome - yet Egwene thought that smile a practiced tool.&quot;<br /><br />The statement came up regarding Delana wanting to put forth that the Salidar Hall openly proclaim Elaida as BA, which could play even farther into this.  At any rate, moreso even than what Siuan and Leane have been doing in Salidar, this sounds more exactly like what Siuan and Moiraine did when they were raised to full sisters.<br /><br />I do suspect that until Romanda showed up in Salidar Lelaine had aspirations of becoming Amyrlin herself, and her pride is what would keep her from wanting Romanda to be raised.  Romanda could want Lelaine not to be raised for any number of reasons, including the possibility that she came out of retirement specifically with whatever task they're up to already formed.  For all we know (or at least I know), they're both BA and being played on different sides of the same scheme.<br /><br />I do think that given that they were formerly close, even up to Romanda's return from retirement, that the theory is actually likely given RJs writing style.  To go a step further, I think that Romanda showed up with the plan that set the two into the acts that they're playing at.


created: 2004-10-17 21:49:29
subject: <b>Your conclusions are wrong</b>
body:
Although I have to agree that RAFO is someone's cousin I don't think it's Bela's.<br /><br />Think about it, why do RAFO (as Bela's cousin) come to Whitebridge or kill Asmodean?<br /><br />The only other cousin that could have done all of that is Narg's. Narg's cousin was in the same Trolloc's party that went to Two Rivers and later chased them to Whitebridge. Narg's cousin would definitely have an order from DO or other Forsaken to kill Asmo. And because of some frikish accident his mother was involved outside of SG (some wild party gone real wild) he got the super-puper strength in One Power. But because of his construction (the last RJ interview) he can't dissobey Forsaken.<br /><br />So RAFO is Narg's cousin.<br />


created: 2004-10-17 22:21:36
subject: <b>Re: Aahzmandius, not quite right</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure RJ said the DO didn't order Asmo's death.<br /><br />Rafo's obviously did this on her own, probably because Asmo could ID her. <br /><br />I'm trying to decide if Rafo has been wearing a disguise of an AS, or hiding out as Renee Harfor. (That woman is just too suspicious, IMO.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-18 00:05:51
subject: <b>You just figured it out?</b>
body:
I've known that for a long time! But he is not Bela's cousin - he killed Asmo, posed as Taim, and was previously known as Beidomon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>CW</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-18 02:44:17
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
That was wonderful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-18 04:32:28
subject: <b>Impressive</b>
body:
Perhaps you can shed light on the following RAFO answers then ...<br /><br />1. Who was the one who is no more? The innkeeper or the guy on the barrel?<br />2. Is the innkeeper an ex-Aes Sedai?<br /><br />Perhaps RAFO is Setalle Anan - it would make sense. She isn't intimidated by Nynaeve or Elayne's strength.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-18 12:53:22
subject: <b>i have to agree with you</b>
body:
you have had to much to drink. Bela is a horse and this is a serious book not some sort of wacko parody or comedy thingy. Seriously, i don't think even you belive that.


created: 2004-10-19 20:43:58
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
Guy who posted above me, read the Theory Topic.  It's under &quot;Humorous Theories.&quot;  Pay more attention next time before flaming.


created: 2004-10-20 13:17:22
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
I love it when people become offended by humorous theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-20 15:12:40
subject: <b>Rafo the great, Rafo the splendid, Rafo the almost totally insane</b>
body:
I'd go with the Narg one, personally. Rafo seems to me a bit more a darkfriendish lass if you ask me. All hail Narg the Eater of many Limbs! and his neece Rafo!


created: 2004-10-20 16:18:05
subject: <b>Bela is Narg</b>
body:
Well ovbiously Bela is a Dreadlord herself.  She merely wove the mists of illusion of whatever to disguise herself when she tried to kill Rand in Book 1.    Bela was smart enough to play dead when Rand THOUGHT he stabbed her and then got to the stable in time to become herself again by compelling Rand to just stand there for a few minutes while she got to the stable.<br />


created: 2004-10-21 16:15:44
subject: <b>Why is this in the humorous section?</b>
body:
Why is this in the humorous section?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What is all this fuss about beauty being skin deep?  That's deep enough...what do you want? an adorable pancreas?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-21 20:29:57
subject: <b>Hmmmmm...</b>
body:
Yeah, I guess Rafo must be the one that killed Adeleas as well. And basically did everything that the WoT plot relies on.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /> Maybe Rafo is neither Bela's cousin, nor Narg's cousin, but their illegitimate bastard child!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <br /> --Refer GRRMartin for more on bastards and their incredible roles in the shaping of plot.--<br /> Anyway, cool theory. It was hilarious when that guy flipped out over it too. Ha.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 10:12:40
subject: <b>omg</b>
body:
LOL! i thought this was a serius theory... with 85% agreeing on it! anyway... it was really funny when the other guy did the same mistake <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-26 09:36:05
subject: <b>narg is the embodiment of rafo .</b>
body:
therefor hodor is  bela upside down. in fact hodor keep saying: rafo rafo&quot; but becuse GRRM was afraid of copyrights he chang it  into hodor. so narg is really the true meanng of rafo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-26 15:14:52
subject: <b>Unfortunately, we'll never see the truth ...</b>
body:
Let's face it. Now that the truth about RAFO has been revealed, Rafo will be written out of the series. RJ will read this theory, as we know that he reads all theories on WOTmania. Once he reads it, he will curse me soundly, and then rewrite the end of the series. He's done it before. Anytime a theory comes too close to one of his secret little plot twists, he changes it.<br /><br />Can anyone say Taimandred?


created: 2004-10-30 23:05:31
subject: <b>Alivia the animal lady</b>
body:
omg, havent u guys heard of shape shifters? perrin can go wolf, and alivia who is strong can go horse! she's the horse whisperer. or the whip lady


created: 2004-11-14 18:41:17
subject: <b>No more question</b>
body:
in my mind this settles it. Rafo killed Asmo.  She did it with a candlestick wrapped in air in the water closet that Asmo thought was a wine closet.  He probably fell in the &quot;portal hole&quot; and the lime that is used to keep down smells dissolved the body. Now I can sleep.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">:0 Alea Sedai :0</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 00:16:28
subject: <b>Ritalin with your wheaties? I think you mean crack.</b>
body:
A horse.  A horse is going to fight in the last battle and defeat the Dark One.  Have you lost your mind or just your stash of Vitamin R?  And having a channelling horse??  Okay, wierder things could happen, but if there really is a horse that's pulling all of the strings behind the scenes, why go through 10 books?  Why not put it in a picture book that would take you all of 30 seconds to read?  And the connection between RAFO and Bela based on the letter R's similarity to the letter B is REALLY thin.  Have you considered the fact that maybe the accronym for one of the next few books could be RAFO?


created: 2005-03-05 10:55:02
subject: <b>F*CKING IDIOTIC RETARDS</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> first of all i would like to say i am ashamed and embarressed that ne1 could hav written such a mediocre piece of CR*P!!!!!!!!!!!!! that being said i think you should be ashamed of ur selve for tainting WoT in such a way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> im sure u set robert jordan to puking over the toilet bowl in disgust. i kno i did.im sure i speak for every sane WoT maniac in saying u r hereby DISOWNED and should not be allowed to read the rest of the series because you will defile it further, if at all possible. Your heresy and blasphemey is ABOMINABLE.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> u should be shot for even THINKING of such a conjecture o and POO ON U<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon will be raised up as the Shadow's Champion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-05 12:32:54
subject: <b>i forgot...</b>
body:
WAY2 Go morph finally a kindred spirit to to bash all the assholes and idiots with.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> liked the wheaties and crack thing, pretty origional <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> ne1 ways while im on the subject let me say againt that U ARE ALL IDIOTS, every one who posted on this thread with the exception of morph here.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon will be raised up as the Shadow's Champion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-23 02:48:49
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
If you can't handle parody, don't come to the humor section. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-04-12 14:52:12
subject: <b>Stupid section ne way</b>
body:
first the humor section is the most retarded section ever thought of. second i was hoping to shame ne1 who would DARE post on this section as making fun of RJ's books this way is sacriligious and shameful to boot.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> i cant imagine why ne1 wuld want to degrade this masterpiece of a saga to make it humorous. the damn thing is NOT meant to be humorous, although some thing here and there are. who ever would post on this sectio w/o the intent to THOUROUGHLY (did i spell that right?) flame the assholes should be put to the firing wall<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> ne1 who would write nething to go here should never be allowed to read a sing one of RJ's fantastic works EVER AGAIN. this also applies to the webmaster of this site which is otherwise a great WOTsite. shame on all of u<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon will be raised up as the Shadow's Champion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 10:03:02
subject: <b>BAHAHAHAHHAH</b>
body:
anyone who is pissed off at the humour section is the funniest person in the world! lol... seriously humour being creatinga non serious (as in something not really beleived but created for mirth for those of ou with IQ's of single digits)...wtf is wrong with you...&quot;i think you should be disowned from WoT for having a sence of homour...&quot; u nazi F***... if you cant handle humour then you should be turned into soup or some other food type! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> anyway, WoT has an underlying humour plot anyway...the whole wot men think of women and visa versa... im all for supporting the RAFO horse theory!!! for f***s sake its a humourous fantasy novel... may i quote:<br />&quot;As my Lord says, my Lord's leg is not a side of beef. Thank you, my Lord, for instructing me.&quot;<br />     -Nerim, to Mat, while sewing up his wounds<br />&quot;im sorry for not taking that seriously *insert sarcasm here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> *<br />WoT was written as a funny book aswell not a serious straight NAZI book! Thank you for listenin to my random babbling... someone reply to this    im lonley <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MOO</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-09 01:16:39
subject: <b>Roflmfao...</b>
body:
OMG!!! Why do I find it so funny that people are so pissed off because of this theory? It's a great funny theory that all should read... I rank this one up there with the one about RJ being sexually frustrated... If you don't like the humor the stay away... People like to make humorous theories because it <i>IS</i> a funny series... It may be mainly serious but it is  funny at the same time... Get off of your high horse and have a laugh at something funny...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-14 07:51:31
subject: <b>Fantastic</b>
body:
LMAO. this was bloody brilliant 'R-B. They're almost the same letter.'<br />You've convinced me, my friend. Everyone beware Rafo!


created: 2007-01-07 02:43:32
subject: <b>I disagree about Bela being LTTs horse reborn,</b>
body:
Bela IS his horse. Or was, seeing as LTT is dead... <br />The RAFO comment about how they know about Lanfear's strength should be interpreted as Rafo TELLING whoever wrote down that Lanfear was as strong as any woman, that she was so strong. It was Rafo that figured that out. Rafo is, of course excluded from that rating, since she is a mare, not a woman. Rafo is immortal through the unusual combination of mare and channeler. Since the breaking, she has been working behind the scenes. She even found the dragon reborn before Moiraine did, and played an important part in shaping him in his youth, not to mention that she caused him to touch the OP for the first time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;<br />I was born with it...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 22:08:50
subject: <b>I was trying to decide if this was intended for the &quot;Humorous&quot; category</b>
body:
You seem to have a slightly different view of some concepts, and the overall tone of the theory made me smile. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> You may be on to something with the idea, just the same. <br /><br />Most people will probably refer to the War of Shadow, where the Forsaken used Tel'aran'rhiod for evil purposes. With the passing of time, this is thought to be yet another one of those things that has undergone change from fact-to-legend-to-myth, and the WO's now have it all skewed in their teachings. <br /><br />Some have lately suggested that Rand's (and perhaps Egwene's) &quot;in the flesh&quot; escapades, may be what RJ was referring to recently about the event(s) from the past that have dire consequences in KoD.<br /><br />Anyway, I enjoyed the read, and gave it a thumbs up for innovation and wit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 23:40:35
subject: <b>yeeks!!</b>
body:
Are you implying that they lose part of their soul or part of their conscience?... something like that?... scary!


created: 2004-10-18 12:34:20
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
...I give you thumbs up, for an intriguing idea, you might be on to something...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Recent studies show that 3 out of 4 people now make up 75% of the population.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-18 14:06:54
subject: <b>This was a new idea.</b>
body:
The Rhuidean ter'angreal, the one the WOs go through almost certainly works in the same way (i.e. it uses TAR to show these possibilities), but you are right that the accepted's test is different in that you are forced to deny yourself the normal human desires. Perhaps when one enters TAR in the flesh, there is a increased risk to lose a part of your humanity, not a certainty of it. <br /><br />So unless you do something inhuman while in TAR in the flesh, you're fine. Even if you are there in the flesh, you can still be changed, the way anything can be changed in TAR (see Rand vs Rahvin battle). If these changes remain when you exit, perhaps the emotional changes also persist. <br /><br />Considering this, I think that the normal entries into tar are also dangerous in the same way, but not to the same degree. The fact the you can channel more strongly in TAR in the flesh could also be related.


created: 2004-10-18 20:52:55
subject: <b>Hmm...interesting</b>
body:
I definitely think you're on to something.  What about during Nyn's Accepted test, when the doorway vanished and she made it reappear?  I think that leans strongly towards the Accepted test being in a place that is malleable, just like T'A'R.<br /><br />And I don't think that the Wise Ones are referring to the Forsaken when they talk about the evils of using T'A'R in the flesh.  They talk to Egwene about seeing the Forsaken: &quot;those who must be dreamwalkers, even men.&quot; They also say that they think that in T'A'R, they are as strong as one of the Forsaken and that the Forsaken avoid them.<br /><br />However, this whole &quot;losing yourself&quot; is a little fuzzy.  Perrin smells the inhuman scent on Slayer right off the bat in the Two Rivers, both in and out of T'A'R.  However, when he meets Ishy in T'A'R in TDR, he doesn't smell any inhuman scent.  So what does that mean?  I've often wondered if Ishy is actually a male dreamwalker.  He is the only one, aside from Moggy and Lanfear, that seems to operate a good amount in the Dreamworld.  If Ishy is a male dreamwalker, it makes sense that Perrin wouldn't smell the inhuman scent on him.<br /><br />Perrin doesn't smell anything of that sort on the Aes Sedai, though.  He doesn't smell anything special about them at all.  BUT... how do the wolves identify Aes Sedai?  Remember that they call them &quot;two-legged shes who control the wind and call fire&quot; or some such.  And the wolves don't really care about the two-legs much at all.  There must be SOMEthing there for them to distinguish... but then why doesn't Perrin get a particular scent?<br /><br />Perrin doesn't get the inhuman smell from Rand, either, and I think that Rand's major sojourns into T'A'R were in LOC and ACoS, when Perrin was still with him. He discovered how to get into T'A'R from Rahvin, and used it for a while to scout out stuff (like Sammael's forts in Illian).  But he's been cutting back on his use of saidin, to a point of not even using it float goblets to him... I think that this sort of scouting in T'A'R has been stopped as well.  You'd think that Rand could have used the Dreamworld to scout during the battle with the Seanchan in PoD, but he didn't.  I think that this is indicative that he's cut back on his sojourns into T'A'R.<br /><br />(Or maybe he's just stupid.)


created: 2004-10-19 00:41:42
subject: <b>Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc</b>
body:
I have to vote against this theory because it leans too heavily on circumstantial evidence with no real support behind it.  For example:  I have a feeling Ishamael would have been insane anyway, regardless of his frequenting of <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>.  Slayer lost his humanity long before entering the World of Dreams; in fact, he <i>started</i> as a semi-human construct, borne from the souls of (at least) two people (Luc Mantear and Isam Mandragoran, with perhaps a touch of the Shadow thrown in for good measure).  Rahvin is in the same boat as Ishamael--he sold his soul to the Dark One; it's a little hard to call him completely human.<br /><br />As for Rand, I'd like to observe anyone who managed to retain his innocent backcountry farmboy persona after 1) realizing he and only he can save the world, 2) that he's doomed to destroy said world, 3) is doomed to go mad and start killing people unless he can do something that no one has been able to do for three thousand years, including people with far more experience than him at doing similar things, 4) that he is a danger to everyone around him, especially himself, simply by what he is, ... you get the idea.<br /><br />Egwene is another example:  I'd like to see a person who could retain her daughter-of-innkeeper-in-middle-of-nowhere-village persona after 1) realizing she can touch the One Power (or perform some other incredible feat, to make it more applicable to our own world...), 2) having to (abruptly) leave her home, family, etc. to live with complete strangers from lands she never knew existed and become part of a mysterious society she'd only heard about in stories, 3) finding that she has an ability that no one has had for over 400 years, 4) becoming the youngest ever ruler (by a wide margin) of a very powerful, secretive organization composed primarily of women between three and ten times her age who are almost as stubborn as she is (which is a feat) and don't like to be called down, 5) having to fight with and all-but-alienate the man she was convinced she would marry some day, ... you get the idea there, too.<br /><br />Unless there is a CLEAR example of someone's personality changing JUST because they entered the World of Dreams, we can't be certain what the effects are.  This theory is an interesting idea, but considering the arguments made I have to say that it's not well-supported at the present time.  Perhaps time will tell just how much of this idea is correct.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 13:13:06
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Not quite waterproof, but interesting.<br /><br />How does &quot;You're not supposed to be able to channel&quot; (or something similar, that Nyn was told after her accepted's test, fit into this theory? People who are in t'a'r in the flesh can usually channel.<br /><br />This would explain where the accepted go that do not come out. They die of hunger in t'a'r.<br /><br />But quite frankly, I don't think the ring-ter'angreal is a portal to t'a'r. It is t'a'r related, true, but I think it is also portal-stone related. Remember about t'a'r being a sort of link between this world and the portal worlds? So maybe the ring ter'angreal is a t'a'r link to specific portalworlds. After all, portalworlds are supposed to be a kind of new dimensions - Kinda: Here's how the world would have looked if this had happened in this way and not the way it did.<br /><br />I agree with the above about Forsaken being inhuman anyhow (possible because they were trapped in the bore?). <br />I thought Eg was made inhuman by being caught by the Seanchan and treated as inhuman. The same thing(when he was caught by the TAS)was a cataclyst for Rand's coldness.<br /><br />Oh yeah, and wasn't being in t'a'r in the flesh be more dangerous the more you did it? The time factor is hardly mentioned in the theory.<br /><br />Humbly<br />-Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 17:28:30
subject: <b>Tangentially Related</b>
body:
So if Rahvin could &quot;think&quot; Rand into something that doesn't channel when both are in TAR in the flesh, couldn't you &quot;think&quot; yourself, or at least someone else, into a stronger channeler?<br /><br />It seems like a Deus ex Machina - you could pop into TAR in the flesh, imagine yourself as a superstrong channeler or a bodybuilder or whatever and then pop out into the real world.  Wouldn't the changes be permanent?  What couldn't our dreamwalking friends do?<br /><br />On the other hand, if changes made to someone in TAR in the flesh disappear as soon he leaves, then the whole in the flesh warning is pretty lame, as you suggest.<br /><br />I would like to see it occur to some Forsaken to enter TAR in the flesh and imagine himself holding an access key to the Choedan Kal (or any sa'angreal).  Presto.  If Rahvin would have thought of that, Rand would have been a little charcoal briquet in another dimension.<br /><br />Anyway, the possibilities for exploiting TAR while there in the flesh appear to be limitless, SO WHY THE HECK HASN'T ANYBODY DONE IT (besides imagining a copy of Bela, that is)?!?!?<br /><br />Also, what if you imagined one of the gateways to Finnland and entered it in TAR?  Could this be a way in and out of the Tower of Ghenjei?


created: 2004-10-19 20:34:18
subject: <b>Constructs in T'A'R</b>
body:
Ok, the properties of T'A'R are such that constructs you make in the Dreamworld do not exist in the real world.  In T'A'R, such things exist only when you Think about them (I use the capital letter because it's different in T'A'R).  Remember, Rand Thinks the bush away in tFoH, but as soon as he stops Thinking, it reappears.  You couldn't take something you Thought into existence in T'A'R to the real world, because the real world doesn't have those properties of Thought that allow the object to stay corporeal.<br /><br />The Wise Ones and Egwene seem to know a method of Thinking things into existence and having them maintain their form without vanishing, despite the lack of Thought put into it after its creation.  Such as the tea and cookies they drink together in ACoS.  But this, too, vanishes after a time.  It is not permanent, and is not something that you could bring with you into the real world.  This is one of the abilities of a Dreamer.<br /><br />Ah, but, you say, what about those other things that exist without Thought?  Like the nightmares?  Or when Nyn and Elayne make the unicorn in tFoH?  Well, these things are now PART of T'A'R.  They have been subsumed by it.  They can no more leave than the SAS steal the papers on Elaida's desk and bring them back to the real world.<br /><br />OK, on to the stuff the Forsaken do in T'A'R.  This works because the Forsaken can have access to anyone in the world from T'A'R, and it works just as well in the Dreamworld as it does in the real world.  In the TEOTW, Moiraine speaks of Ishy talking to Fain through T'A'R:<br /><br />&quot;When Fain returned to Lugard, Ba'alzamon came to him in a dream.  Fain abased himself and performed rites that would strike you deaf to hear the half of them, binding himself even more tightly to the Dark One.&quot;  (TEOTW, paperback ed., p 714)<br /><br />Flash forward to tFoH.  Moggy threatens Nyn with the permanence of being a horse in T'A'R.  Hmmm...was this just an idle threat, or was this real?  I tend to think that it was just a threat.  We have no other evidence of something like this happening.  But, even if it was true, Nyn wouldn't be a horse in the real world.  Just in T'A'R.  Moggy says it quite clearly that she would be a horse each time she came to the Dreamworld.  She describes it as a type of binding.  So, idle threat or not, it's another example of things existing only in the Dreamworld.<br /><br />The properties of constructs in T'A'R are still a little fuzzy.  But I think it's safe to say that even someone who came into T'A'R in the flesh could not create something and then take it out with him.  Even the knives Slayer used in WH were HIS knives, not something he created in T'A'R and took with him.<br /><br />Oh, and sorry about the length of this...just wanted to make it clear.


created: 2004-10-19 20:39:48
subject: <b>Oh, and BTW</b>
body:
...those entering the Dreamworld in the flesh are not going to know its intracacies like the Dreamwalkers.  Remember, Amys says that she has seen others walking T'A'R, those who &quot;must&quot; be Dreamwalkers, even men.  Clearly, she is describing the Forsaken.  She goes on to say that they avoid the Wise Ones.  Amys thinks that she thinks that the Wise Ones are as powerful as the Forsaken, in T'A'R.<br /><br />Therefore, being in T'A'R in the flesh does not give you an advantage...quite the contrary.  Look at how Rand has to Think the bush out of existence and then it returns when he stops.  A person in T'A'R in the flesh would have to constantly Think of their sa'angreal to keep it in existence.  And they couldn't take it out of T'A'R.  See above.


created: 2004-10-20 09:58:42
subject: <b>More on the tangent</b>
body:
It's clear that constructs formed in TAR cannot be brought back outside the world of dreams.  I was referring to the thought voiced in the theory that Rand might have remained as the non-channeling &quot;donkey dragon&quot; even had he escaped TAR after battling Rahvin.  If that were true, then it should also require that all of the other characteristic-altering improvements could be made.  That they have not been made, I submit, argues strongly against the permanent donkey dragon possibility.<br /><br />Next, the sa'angreal point was intended to cover only battles taking place between people in TAR (e.g. Rand and Rahvin).  Granted, concentration is an important part of holding any construct together, but it has always seemed weird to me that Rahvin could think Rand, who was actively resisting, into fantastical situations but lacked the insight to picture a sa'angreal.  (Also, Nyn and Moggy, who were present for that battle using the sleep/spirit ter'angreal, could only weave Spirit, and weakly at that.  But couldn't one of them have contrived a sa'angreal and used it to amplify their Spirit power to the point where together they could slap a shield (which is all Spirit) on Rahvin?)<br /><br />As to Moggy's ursine threat to Nyn, I think that she could carry it out.  I think that the trick would be compelling Nyn and programming her with the following instruction &quot;When I am in TAR, I will believe that I am a horse for Moggy to ride.&quot;  That doesn't require any permanent TAR conjuring, just planting a simple instruction, which Moggy should be able to do.


created: 2004-10-20 13:37:25
subject: <b>Silver Arrow = Good Point</b>
body:
I had forgotten about her arrow.  Good call.  I cannot remember if Birgitte arrived in the real world naked.  I think she was.  If so, it would not just be that people ripped out of TAR come with whatever the are touching.  There must be some other connection there.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2004-10-20 20:19:07
subject: <b>Birgitte</b>
body:
Yep, she was stark nekkers.  Obviously the arrow had some sort of special connection with her... or maybe it was just something that RJ did and forgot about.  Whatever happened to that silver arrow, anyway?  The Salidar Six gave Elayne and Nyn back all their jewelry and stuff in TFoH, including that arrow, but where is it now?


created: 2004-10-21 00:16:46
subject: <b>Completely unrelated...</b>
body:
Um... can anyone tell me how to make stuff bold?  Me stupid.  Me need help.  Me would appreciate it.


created: 2004-10-21 21:50:36
subject: <b>Ehhh...</b>
body:
I don't know that there is really that much truth in this theory but it is a good idea. I think the &quot;better-than-thou&quot; problem associated with so many women (and men) in power is actually just the way Jordan (&quot;May he live forever&quot; ) writes his characters. <br /><br />I don't think that this theory is correct because I see the Aes Sedai (and Asha'men) as just turning into the people we see due to the way Jordan depicts them. It is not something Jordan thought up and consciously put in the storyline. Rather, it is his subconscious way of depicting people.<br /><br />&quot;guttering flame&quot; is right...<br />&gt;&gt;&gt;All along the series the Aes Sedai see themselves as more than simple mortals and so do most of the rest of the characters we meet at Randland. &gt;&gt;&gt;<br />and...<br />&gt;&gt;&gt;indeed Aes Sedai are just such people, caring only for themselves and others like themselves in a narcissistic temperament.&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />I am glad I am not the only one that sees this. And I would say that the Asha'men are the same (Except for Damer Flinn. Everybody likes Damer Flinn (and Min.))<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-21 22:58:22
subject: <b>Non Sequitur</b>
body:
I completely disagree with this theory. First, the character evidence. What about all the Green Aes Sedai? They show emotions constantly, and they are certainly not cold unhumans, as demonstrated by their feisty relationships with their warders (specifically Myrelle). In addition to these facts, the Accepted (who have gone throught the rings by definition) are excessively characterized as attempting to be Aes Sedai, but usually failing. Furthermore, RJ has been going to great lengths show that Aes Sedai are indeed merely people, not vulcans. Shemerin is a coward, Suian loves Gareth (her case might not be entirely applicable), Myrelle feels jealousy, and apparently Vandene or Adeleas loved her sister (I forget which one was killed). Also, all Aiel Wise Ones, except Sevanna, have gone through the Rhuidean Rings: might those not also be a gateway to Tel'Aran'Rhiod? <br />      In addition to all the personal evidence the people are human, there are holes in the mechanics of the theory. When entering the rings, novices were told not to channel, and yet, channeling happens all the time in TAR. <br />      It seems more probable to me that the rings lead into a sort of stabalized vacoule, from which the rings draw their ability to read the Pattern. This is supported by the fact the rings must be channeled into to activate them, possibly powering some sort of temporary gateway into the vacoule. Also, Nynaeve had to draw heavily on Saidar to get back out. This would also explain how some characteristics of the rings may mimic, and yet contradict characteristics of TAR.<br />      But back to the theory, I think its absolutely erroneous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Si Caesar viveret, ad remum dereris.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 18:58:07
subject: <b>replies</b>
body:
about the non channeling claims some people mentioned, I believe this is a common misconception of what really went on in there.<br /><br />both Nynaeve and Egwene channel (quite stongly) in their acceptance test. Nynaeve in her first test(battling the mock Aginor forsaken) and Egwene in her third test (battling the black ajah sisters in the tower). you may claim the problems they had to get back to the real world were a result of that but during Nynaeve test she emerges scotch free from her first test and get trapped in her third because she doesn't want to go back from her fantasy world and not from some fancy technical problem.<br /><br />If you will reread that part of her test I think you could see that she doesn't actually have to channel to get her gate back on her third test, she just concentrate on it appearing back in place and like any other TAR construst it appears like magic(no pun intended):<br /><br />&lt;&lt;&lt;<br />&quot;I must go back,&quot; she whispered. Unable to bear the pain on his face, she pulled free of him. Deliberately she formed a flower bud in her mind, a white bud on a blackthorn branch. she made the thorns sharp and cruel, wishing they could pierce her flesh, feeling as if she already hung in the blacthorns's branches. Sheriam Sedai's voice danced just out of hearing, telling her it was dangerous to attempt to channel the Power. The bud opened, and saidar filled her with light.<br /><br />&quot;Nynaeve, tell me whaat is the matter,&quot;<br /><br />Lan's voice slid across her concentration; she refused to let herself hear it. There had to be a way back still. Staring at where the silver arch had been, she tried to find some trace of it. There was nothing.<br /><br />&quot;Nynaeve...&quot;<br /><br />She tried to picture the in her mind, to shape it and form it to the last detail, curve of gleaming metal filled with a glow like snowy fire. It seemed to waver there, in front of her, first there between her and the trees then not, than there.<br />&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />What we see here is Nynaeve trying to resurrect her gateway with saidar but getting nothing out of it. only when she imagines the gate appearing back in front of her and tries to will it back in place it starts to appear. at first glance it would look like she channeled it into being but that is just her own distorted view of what really went on. If you will notice although Nynaeve holds the power in her she doesn't actually do anything with it (no channeling involved). the only thing the channeling is helping her with is to get her concentration focused on the task (the flower trance that she was taught) and the power is just a side effect.<br /><br />when Nynaeve emerges from the arches she has to black-thors embedded in her hands but as soon as they leave her hands they fade into nothingness. this is exactly the same as the various injuries that Rand suffers from Baalzamon during the first three books and those too were from visits to TAR.<br /><br />In Egwene's case the problem of getting back was clearly explained by the TAR ring she got before the test and had nothing to do with channeling(or maybe her channeling activated her ring and made the dissonance between the two terangrael more pronounced).<br /><br />so what was Sheriam so worried about?<br /><br />&lt;&lt;&lt;<br />&quot;I channeled the Power. It was so easy.&quot;<br /><br />Sheriam missed a step. &quot;That isn't supposed to be possible. You should not even remember being able to channel.&quot; She studied Nynaeve. &quot;And yet you are not harmed. I can still sense the ability in you, as strong as it ever was.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You sound as if it were dangerous,&quot; Nynaeve said slowly, abnd Sheriam hesitated before answering.<br /><br />&quot;It isn't thought necessary to give warning, since you shouldn't be able to remember it, but ... This ter'angreal was found during the Trolloc wars. We have the records of its examination in the archives. The first sister to enter was warded as strongly as she could be, since no one knew what it would do. She kept her memories, and she channeled the One Power when she was threatened. And she came out with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source. The seond to go in was also warded, and she, too, was destroyed in in the same way. The third went unprotected, remembering nothing once she was inside, and returned unharmed. That is one reason why we send you completey unprotected. Nynaeve, you must not channel inside the ter'angreal again. I know it is hard to remember anything, but try.&quot;<br />&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />what do we really learn from Sheriam's little story? <br />First they tell us it was found during the Trolloc wars possibly from dark friends' sources that could have used it as a torturing device similar to the torture seat the aes sedai use against captured criminals.<br /><br />also and more to the point she tells us what the history books said about the first examination of these arches. appearently if your mind was warded against interference you would imerge evered from the true sourse but if you let the device seep off your memories you would pass through unharmed. the channeling dangers were already proven by Nynaeve to be false so we must assume that the type of warding the early aes sedai used interferd with the blending of the entree to that world and therefore was harmed on her way out. the reason a warded sister would channel while an unwarded sister wouldn't be able to is because the worst fear of the average sister would be not being able to channel.<br /><br />Sheriam claim that channeling inside the arches isn't possible is not based on a lot of evidence I think.<br /><br />she has the record of (at least three probably a few more) sister that examined it after the Trolloc wars, her own (Sheriam's) experiences of it and the occasional slips that other initiates let by her.<br /><br />I explained why the early sisters did not channel inside(fear of not being able to channel) if it isn't just plain luck and Sheriam's own test could be anything for all we know. we don't have much knowledge on her history)<br /><br />I think most ordinary people wouldn't emerge from expiriencung their worst fear exclaiming &quot;whee, I channeled, whee&quot; they will shiver, cry and so on. so for all we know hundred of sisters out there chaanneled during their accepted test and no one is the wiser. Perhaps Sheriam had to read about it because she was in charge of the tower students and was responsible to their fate.<br /><br />So in conclusion I say we have a lot of evidence that the place is part of TAR (mainly from the fact that we experience there something that reflects what goes on in our mind and that the gate always appear just at the worst possible moment for our emotional state. also there is a small prophetic meaning to these dreams as the seanchan are introduced in here before thwy are encountered in the real world) and that channeling there is not dangerous or important beyond its everyday importance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 20:16:18
subject: <b>Completely disagree with the theory</b>
body:
There is no single shred of evidence that TAR can contain constructs of other people. The only time when we saw bunch of constructs running around was during visit to the Tower and it was someone's nightmare with Trollocs. Yes, it's possible for someone to create their own nightmares (very strong emotions) in TAR. But it looks very different to me from what we saw during tests. First of, during the test the girls don't know what they will meet. They don't even remember that they are in the test. Very different from that nightmare from the Tower. The nightmare was created by someone's fear and the person was totaly aware of that. Second of, there were &quot;predictions&quot; during the test - like Egwene being AS, and Nynaeve marrying Lan or Elayne stealing cookie from Rand ;} But there were no such things in TAR. Ever. And nobody can do that. Even Wise Ones. Some of them can Dream and thus &quot;know&quot; the future, but the Dream is not TAR. The book says so - read the chapters where Egwene describes dreams, Dreams and TAR. They are different. Third of, if it was similar to the test I imagine AS would recognize that and don't behave silly in front of Wise Ones.


created: 2004-10-23 00:32:05
subject: <b>re:</b>
body:
The testing does not rsemble the nightmare that SAS have on one of their visits. it resembles a trap that Moghedien built to trap Egwene in TAR. it happens in tFoH I think on the same night as her first dream encounter with Gawyn.<br /><br />Moggi recognises her as a strong dreamer and wants to get rid of her (something along the lines of avoiding future competition) and so she creates a vision where Egwene lives in the two rivers with Galad as a husband. <br /><br />Like the acceptance testing Egwene is given a set of false memories(several of them, as Moggi tries to fine tune this fantasy world to meet with Egwene greatest assumed needs) and has almost no recolection from her true life.<br /><br />We are given to understand that if Egwene accepts this false reality as her true world she (her soul I mean since her body stayed home) will be lost forever to anyone who tries to find her. if Moggi understood Egwene good enough to make this fantasy perfect I believe Egwene would have been lost in it.<br /><br />A dream doesn't have to be a nightmare to be retained in TAR it just has to be attached to a strong emotion I think like love and faith for a given vision like the one I just talked about or else TAR would have been a much darker place than it is.<br /><br />The dream the SAS aes sedai fell into didn't make them have false memories(Or at least it didn't give them to those with POVs at the scene) because it wasn't constructed especially for them. nevertheless those of them who were caught in the moment and forgot anything else might have been affected in that way.<br /><br />I'm not all that sure what memories such a dream could contain anyway. endless torture sessions? it was after all a very limited dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-23 15:40:02
subject: <b>Accepted test</b>
body:
I am beginning to believe you that the Accepted test is an extension of TAR.  The example of Moggy's weaving of TAR to trap Egwene is particularly convincing.  However, I don't agree that the Accepted test puts the initiates into TAR in the flesh.<br /><br />In fact, the history that Sheriam gave supports the theory that it is NOT in the flesh.  When the warded, shielded Aes Sedai entered into it, they had a link to the real world, the same as the people who enter TAR in the flesh.  The Accepted who just dive in are like the Dreamers, unprotected and not linked to the real world.  In fact, the Dreamers are not really IN their bodies when they are Dreaming, remember the Wondergirls cannot wake up Egwene when she is Dreaming and neither can the gai'shan in FoH.<br /><br />Besides, I just can't see how one trip into TAR in the flesh is enough to effect someone's humanity.  Remember, Perrin doesn't smell the inhuman scent on anyone but Slayer.  The nose knows.  RJ's host of arrogant Aes Sedai and main characters is just his style of writing.  As the characters mature and gain in power, they begin to think that they know everything... one of the reasons why we like Mat and Perrin so much.  They're not arrogant.


created: 2004-10-25 11:02:21
subject: <b>hmmmm.....how bout........maybe</b>
body:
just some of my random thoughts......<br /><br />the Accepted ter'angreal is much more likely to be Portal Stone related than t'a'r related....here are my reasons<br />--the Accepted ter'angreal deals with possible pasts, presents, and futures....Portal Stones connect to possible worlds<br />--no mention of items shifting or changing (doors open then closed, pitchers and cups changing types) as in t'a'r<br />--persons mentioned in the Accepted ter'angreal are real and occasionally encountered later in the series (Egwene/Beldiene, Nynaeve/the Granny Kin(i think))....possibilities, not dream based<br /><br />all of the males mentioned gate into t'a'r....not dreamwalkers...except for Slayer, gifted by the Dark One to move in and out of t'a'r at will<br /><br />the whole Aes Sedai/ ter'angreal conspiracy<br />theory.....someone has been reading too many books on the Illuminati or watching too much X-Files<br /><br />you are basing one theory on another....if the Acceptance ter'angreal doesn't involve t'a'r your second thoery falls apart like a house of cards...even if it is, still lot of holes<br /><br />if it did make all Aes Sedai cruel and inhuman would there be any need for the Black Ajah?<br /><br />the Accepted being tested are forced to choose between a dream existence (Nynaeve married to Lan with children, Malkier restored) or a chance to become Aes Sedai and thereby have a chance to make a difference in the world<br /><br />they are choosing between escaping into a fantasy life or face reality in all of its harshness<br /><br />where in your theory do Accepted who fail to become Aes Sedai fit in???<br /><br />like i said , just some random thoughts<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania's very own 'Sex Wiki'<br /><i>The Dirty Old Man of Wotmania</i><br /><br /> <br />attack of the Ninja Smiley<br /><br />BigBrotherBrian to most of the Wotmania Sisterhood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-25 11:28:25
subject: <b>add-on to above</b>
body:
couldn't figure out how to edit my posting above so here goes my last thought that didn't make it in<br /><br />i think the Wise Ones' warning about t'a'r fall along the same lines as that of the danger of saidar (drawing too much when it makes you feel alive)...the dangers with t'a'r is wanting to stay in the dream so strongly (Perrin saving Faile twice) that your soul starts making a transition into into t'a'r (body starts to feel cold similar to a Grey One, soul is partially out of the body, has to go somewhere so why not t'a'r)<br /><br />RJ has said there is an afterlife in Randland, we know souls are spun out over again, death in t'a'r is final(maybe not just for wolves) so that implies that the soul is dying not just body<br /><br />perhaps the Heroes of the Horn are the only souls to realize that they are in t'a'r ....they only appear when they want to be seen <br /><br />maybe the risk to a person's soul by being too strongly in t'a'r is what the Wise Ones' warned about<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania's very own 'Sex Wiki'<br /><i>The Dirty Old Man of Wotmania</i><br /><br /> <br />attack of the Ninja Smiley<br /><br />BigBrotherBrian to most of the Wotmania Sisterhood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-01 12:55:49
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I disagree because I open up the definition of humanity more than you do.  Simply being evil and selfish doesn't make you not human in fact I consider it the basis of human nature.  Do not all babies when they are first born care only for themselves and their own power and pleasure?  You need to read some Hobbs sometime he says it much better than I can, but if we let oursevles be ruled by our passions life would be brutish cruel and short.  It is only by controling them that we survive in big groups.  Look at history, are most people not selfish and self centered?  To believe otherwise is to live an a fantasy world.  One where socialism and comunnism might actually work.  In the real world people work only when they have to and help others only when it helps themselves, but I've digressed so I'll stop.


created: 2006-02-15 17:00:59
subject: <b>I agree that the Accepted test is flawed</b>
body:
That's brilliant of you to notice that. They're not testing strength, they're testing inhumanity, the &quot;hardness&quot; often alluded to. That doesn't qualify one to wield power, it almost does the opposite. I hope that they get a better test by the fourth age, one tht guages integrety and individuality, qualifying you as the whole thing rather than a mere dependant part.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">we really need an edit button on the blackboard. I mean, who doesn't occasionally make a comment that (unintentionally) sounds really snooty, as if it insulted a lot of people's intelegence, then realize they mis-spelled it.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-27 17:29:43
subject: <b>No one has gone that route yet</b>
body:
If this is the case, then no Aiel will be saved (at least, none have been chosen to be saved as of yet).  I can anticipate that the Aes Sedai (female <i>and</i> male) will some day be whole again, and there may be Aiel who serve them, but at this point the only serving is the Aes Sedai women serving the Wise Ones (which is backwards...).<br /><br />Personally, I thought the &quot;remanant of a remanant&quot; might have something to do with Aviendha's babies--there is &quot;something odd&quot; about them, which could mean anything, but it could include the fact that they are the last surviving Aiel--and they're not wholly Aiel, either (since Rand is only half Aiel).<br /><br />This is an interesting theory, though, and could be correct in the end (just not the part about &quot;already being chosen&quot;<i></i>).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-27 19:01:32
subject: <b>A new way of looking at it</b>
body:
For me at least.<br /><br />I haven;t thought about this topic much, but to me it makes sense. It holds my favour as of now.<br /><br />Well thought out. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>CW</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-27 23:02:04
subject: <b>Are you saying..</b>
body:
the tinkers are the remnant? Cause I doubt that they would return to serving the AS... that would mean living in close quarters in a city... not an idea any tinker really likes.<br /><br />Or are you saying that the aiel currently following Rand will eventually come to serve the Tower (black and white) as guards or just plain servants?<br /><br />Who is the group you're claiming will be the remnant? I'm sorry if I missed the name... I can be dense, at times, and right now I'ms supposed to be working on a paper for my sociology class... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-27 23:55:26
subject: <b>That's what I've always believed.</b>
body:
It also explains the &quot;If we fail Aes Sedai again, we will be destroyed&quot;. Since the only remnant that will be saved is the one that returns to their oaths, not to mention the Way of the Leaf, etc, it makes sense that if none go to them, the Aiel would be destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-28 01:23:37
subject: <b>Yeah...</b>
body:
Yup, it's always seemed pretty straightforward to me.  The only thing you left out are the Aiel going to live in cities, such as the one Rand bumps into in Far Madding.


created: 2004-10-28 01:36:34
subject: <b>A fate worse than what seems to be happening</b>
body:
In the first place, the Aiel as &quot;Shock Troops to conquer the world&quot; seems to have petered out.  The only nations not following Rand are the Borderlanders (who are in position for a diplomatic solution, and who are unlikely to require an all out war to bring them to Rand's side) and Andor, Murandy, Arad Domon and the lands ruled by the Seanchan.  A succesful alliance between the king's best (and loyal) general and the Dragonsworn against a foreign invader should solve the chaotic situation in Arad Domon.  Andor will be led by one of several women (Elayne, Arymilla, or Elenia) who have all expressed support or positive feelings towards Rand, and Murandy is ruled by a king who has turned out to be fairly shrewd and politically adept.  He is unlikely to stand against Rand with no other allies, and the Seanchan on his border.  Rand is already preparing to negotiate with the Seanchan, who seem to be willing, tricks up their sleeves or no.  So who will they all die fighting, aside from the Shadow, which is hardly Rand's fault.  <br /><br />In any event, the Way of the Leaf is a colossal joke, and the idea of running back to hide behind it is insulting to the Aiel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-28 03:48:55
subject: <b>Doesn't feel right</b>
body:
The Aiel already served the Aes Sedai in the second age. Why will they serve them again in the fourth? History goes foward. And how will this save them? It simply does not feel right.


created: 2004-10-28 11:30:33
subject: <b>It could be that....</b>
body:
If their way of life were to change I think it would change for all of them. They will all take on the way of the leaf save those that Rand can never say no to the Maidens. He will allow them to continue on their way. The Aiel will be destoryed in the way their culture workes save for the Maidens.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-28 11:42:34
subject: <b>Man...</b>
body:
Is this seriously the best theory we've got right now?  C'mon, admins, we've been waiting for like a week for a new theory and this is it?  We need something with more substance...  Since there's no real way to know what the Aiel will do in the Fourth Age, and no proof to back up either position, all anyone's going to do is say &quot;yea&quot; or &quot;nay.&quot;  Not my idea of a real discussion of a theory that will have actual bearing on the series.


created: 2004-10-28 13:47:27
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
If I am following you right then you are implying that the Da'shain Aiel are in fact the &quot;remnant of a remnant&quot;? So that prophecy will not be fulfilled until the Age of Legends comes back around? Am I correct in assuming this?


created: 2004-10-28 15:27:18
subject: <b>Tinkers</b>
body:
Well the Tinkers makes sense and it works with the whole things with Perrin being the Builder.<br /><br />Look the Aiel avoid the Tinkers pretty much and the Tinkers dont bother to look for the Song among the Aiel.<br /><br />However the Song they are seeking is the Song they sing at the growing or something like it. When the Aiel and Nym in rands vision were singing it made me think of the Tinkers and thier search for the song.<br /><br />I believe there is still a Chora Tree at Rhiuden(sp)<br /><br />This is one of the things the Jenn Aiel were protecting.<br /><br />Good work on the theory<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-30 22:58:56
subject: <b>Age of Legends Aiel</b>
body:
I think the theory is quite good and would be better if it were more linked to the facts of the story instead of just one off quotes. <br /><br />some think that the aiel uniting with the tinkers is not likely, but if the aiel are to survive and serve to remake something like the AoL, then their reunion seems very plausible. this is because firstly, one of the duteis of the aiel was to lend their voice to the &quot;song&quot; which in the AoL made things peaceful and grow (see book 4 Rand's vision). the tinkers have been searching but have avoided the aiel, but it should be noted that the aiel who sing, are men who are taken as gaishan by maidens. and knowing that the maiden tradition is old, then it's highly likely that they would know parts or maybe even the whole song.<br /><br />secondly, servitude does not necessarily mean towards the aes sedai. the aiel have kept a lot of tradition and Rhuidean stores more knowledge of the AoL than the White Tower (they have no books, they have no imagery). so along with Rand's universities, it is possible for the aiel to become educators or people who pass on knowledge and remember that in the AoL, the aiel were highly educated and many people tried to imitate their way of life. <br /><br />and lastly, what are the aiel? are they a people, a race or more of a way of life? the dichotomy shown now, the tinkers and the aiel in the waste show that the meaning of &quot;aiel&quot; is more complex than just the people or just the way of life. and remnant of a remnant could be merely knowledge and tradition that others will pick up.  <br /><br />oh and by the way, people have mentioned aviendha's babies, but no one has mentioned elayne's twins. remember that they have a half aiel father, and an &quot;aunt&quot; thats a full aiel. maybe the remnant will be aiel that are of mixed origins who fully understand what it is to be jenn aiel.


created: 2004-11-02 13:12:39
subject: <b>What is an Aiel?</b>
body:
But the question of &#8220;What is an Aiel&#8221;? still needs to be answered.  If I remember correctly, while Rand was passing through the ter'angreal and seeing his past lives, there was one of his ancestors that had an opportunity to be chosen/tested for another position (i.e. If they were born with the spark or could learn).  That means if they were born with the spark they would be trained as an Aes Sedai, they would no longer be Aiel.  I also believe that in Rand&#8217;s walk through his past lives that it was indicated that some of the Aiel were different and found the way of the leaf difficult, they would have to have a way to remove that influence and channel that energy into a different path and no longer be called Aiel.  <br />I do not believe that all the Aiel will be killed during the last battle (you still have people in Rhuidean) unless the side of the light loses.  <br />I do not believe that the Aiel as we know them can become dedicated servants that will not do any violence.  Over the last age, the Aiel have been &#8220;bred&#8221; for warfare and fighting.  They have turned into a warrior society, both male and female.  Most of their customs and how they determine their hierarchy is based on being a warrior and fighting.  I can not see how they as a people can be expected to change and not do any violence.  Yes they are able to do it for a year and a day, but that isn&#8217;t asking them to change their very nature for the rest of their lives.  I am not talking about individuals but a number of people with a history and culture.<br />So maybe a remnant of a remnant will be a certain type of personality chosen from the Aiel, those who feel that their honor and the honor of all Aiel requires them to follow the way of the leaf and serve the Aes Sedai like in the past. But I would think that they will end up with a different title.<br />Or maybe they will find the song, the song will touch them in a way that they forswear all their existing culture and they become like they were in the AOL&#8230;..I doubt it.<br />


created: 2006-01-15 01:24:03
subject: <b>Umm</b>
body:
After reading KOD I think that the remnant of a remnant will be (scary as it sounds) the Aiel that Therava is leading back to the Three-Fold Land.


created: 2006-09-06 11:12:48
subject: <b>The remnant</b>
body:
I've always had this sense of irony that says the remnant would be some of the lost shaido - you know - the ones you don't care about at all.<br /><br />My 2 cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-30 18:24:00
subject: <b>aiel/tinkers</b>
body:
I personally think that the tinkers are aiel and just geneticly diferent, do to time ,Hair color/eye color ect.I dont know how it happened but its a thought .Thtey are non-violent ,searching for a song and all that .Like I said just a thought.


created: 2004-11-03 18:01:23
subject: <b>ok, its padan fain, but i really like this theory</b>
body:
it makes sense, although i'm becoming greatly confused by all the melding going on, all its gonna take is slayer rand anf fain to meet up and there'll be about 9 people in the same room, despite only 3 bodies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 23:54:53
subject: <b>Yeah...whatever</b>
body:
Um...okay, but I have just two little things.<br /><br />1.  Karldin went around and placed the nasty-weaves on all the Waygates.  Nobody's going in or out of them anytime soon.<br /><br />2.  The Ways were just a convenient plot device for the pre-Travelling WOT series.  Nobody's been in the freaking Ways since TSR, for heaven's sake.  Will the Black Wind have any serious influence on the plot at this point?  I hope not, because it just makes the series that much longer...<br /><br />So in conclusion, sure, you're theory's fine, but it doesn't really matter at this point anyways.


created: 2004-11-04 03:21:54
subject: <b>She <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> You refer to Machin Shin as a female?<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Fain's got a GIRLFRIEND! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-04 05:21:40
subject: <b>Well, I agree</b>
body:
It seem Machin Shin is now following Rand the whole time, would wait at every Waygate he opens and thus Rand could kill it with balefire.<br /><br />Probably, it is as AgingComputer said, a rather theoretical thought since most can Travel and Rand seems to have no desire &amp; time to kill Machin Shin at the moment.<br /><br />On the other hand, it could explain why the Shadowspawn armies, which I believe will attack the Borderlands in KoD by using the Waygates there, won't be decimated by Machin Shin.<br /><br />These Waygates aren't guarded by Ogier as Loial tells in CoT, contrary to most other Waygates <br />Karldin didn't place any weaves at the Waygates, he just Traveled there with Loial. <br /><br />(btw, I would suggest to proof-read your theory before you submit it; it's <i> a bit </i> annoying to read it... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2004-11-04 09:38:56
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
Machin Shin only took Padan Fain's soul, and Mordeth's soul was untouched (because Mordeth is the opposite evil to Machin Shin).<br /><br />Mordeth is still in Padan Fain's old body.<br /><br />Padan Fain's soul is still in the Ways, as a part of Machin Shin, and perhaps what Ishamael did to Fain's soul is now making Machin Shin searching for Rand.<br /><br />Two souls went into the Ways, Fain and Mordeth. One soul left the Ways, Mordeth.<br /><br />And yes, I think Fain indirectly has helped other people, giving them a relative safe pass through the Ways.


created: 2004-11-04 11:27:36
subject: <b>Fain's soul made it out</b>
body:
I disagree with Barid that only Mordeth made it out of the ways.  Whenever we see Fain, the inconsistency in his behavior is apparent.  When Rand and Min go the rebel camp outside Cairhien, Fain's accent changes from minute to minute.  First it will be a simple Lugarder accent (Fain is from Lugard).  Then it will be the &quot;grand&quot; accent I think we can associate with Aridhol.  Clearly, Fain's body is getting passed back and forth between at least Fain and Mordeth.<br /><br />Moreover, there is no reason that Mordeth would hate Rand so specifically.  That is a trait of Fain. <br /><br />TFK


created: 2004-11-04 23:52:32
subject: <b>Gah! Curses</b>
body:
I'm up at college and only have books 1-4 with me.  I always took it for granted that Karldin was placing the nasty-weaves on the Waygates, or at least the ones in the unoccupied Steddings.  I know that at some occupied Steddings, the Ogier promised to keep an eye of the Gate, and some just told Loial to bugger off, but as I am sans-COT, I can't remember which ones exactly... can somebody go through and find this out?  Aren't there an unusally high number of Stedding in the Borderlands?  Or is that the Mountains of Mist?


created: 2004-11-05 15:41:48
subject: <b>It can't follow Perrin</b>
body:
It's true that Machin Shin had a nice little feast at Manetheren, but if your theory is true, it would have been waiting when Loial opened the Waygate in Tear, because all three ta'veren were there to lure it.  Since it was obviously not there, evidenced by Perrin &amp; co.'s safe arrival in the Two Rivers, Machin Shin cannot be programmed to seek after the three ta'veren.


created: 2004-11-05 16:22:24
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
Machin Shin did show up right as Perrin and Co. was fighting the Trollocs in the Ways.  They made it out, but the Shadowspawn was all et up.  So, the Black Wind could be attracted to either Perrin or the Shadowspawn (and there were a lot more Shadowspawn than Perrin and Co., remember Isam says that Machin Shin feasted at the Waygate).  One  could interpret this as Perrin (or Mat) attracts Machin Shin, but not as much as Rand does (and that's why it shows up late).  This is similar to Fain's attraction to the three ta'veren -- in LOC he can point to where Rand is, but in TSR he only knows that Perrin OR Mat was in Emond's Field (he says he would know if it was al'Thor).


created: 2004-11-06 07:07:48
subject: <b>Mat's dagger</b>
body:
Gave him the Shadar Logoth &quot;taint&quot;... It should have called on Mordeth, but maybe that calling disappeared  when Mat was healed?<br /><br />So that would make Perrin the least easy to find of the three ta'veren. Rand is strongest ta'veren and the DR, Mat bore the Shadar Logoth dagger, but Perrin is just plain old Perrin, ta'veren of the TR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-06 15:33:49
subject: <b>Mat + Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
When Mat was healed in Tar Valon in TDR, the Aes Sedai removed all traces of the Shadar Logoth &quot;taint&quot; from him.  Suian says that if even the tiniest seed remained, it would grow and Mat would become all nasty and frothing-at-the-mouth again.  Of course, she did have alterior motives to keep Mat in Tar Valon, but she couldn't LIE at this point.  This also brings up an interesting question of how Moiraine and Suian knew so much about the effects of Shadar Logoth stuff.  Have Aes Sedai encountered people who stole stuff from Shadar Logoth before?  If so, how did they escape the city without being consumed by Mordeth?  Questions within questions...


created: 2004-11-06 21:01:23
subject: <b>Yes,</b>
body:
I think that the Aes Sedai would be curious as to what happened at Aridhol and so they'd do research on it just as originally they did research on all the different Angreal. A few warders/soldiers/Aes Sedai would take a few items here and there as the studied the place and after most of these died they came up with a way to heal the people from said place. Now that leaves us with the idea of why they didn't protect the place from others just strolling in and releasing THAT kind of evil on the world. They must have figured the &quot;Haunted&quot; legend behind it was strong enough to be protection enough.


created: 2004-11-07 15:29:29
subject: <b>Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
Yeah, we've come pretty far afield.  Anyway, on this Shadar Logoth tangent, it really doesn't make any sort of sense.  If Warders/soldiers took stuff from Shadar Logoth, why didn't Mordeth grab them?  He'd just have to go up to one of them and say, &quot;Oh, I'm lost, please help me find my way out of the city.&quot;  It's not like there was a bulletin board set up with big signs saying, &quot;Beware of Mordeth. Do not touch.&quot;  If Shadar Logoth was that dangerous, the Amyrlin would have gotten half the Tower to set up those wards that Moiraine talked about around it that alerted them anytime a human/Shadowspawn passed into it.  Something that dangerous should be the Tower's responsiblity.  Unfortunately for all of us in-depth thinkers, Shadar Logoth has always been something RJ's been a bit fuzzy on.  Because it really doesn't make any sense.  I mean, come on, that stuff with Liah?  And how was Mordeth &quot;snared&quot; by Mashadar instead of being eaten by it?  It makes no sense.


created: 2004-11-27 16:55:13
subject: <b>Title</b>
body:
I think Mordeth would have avoided any Aes Sedai and Warder, I'm betting he could tell they were 'different' just as I bet he could tell Padin Fain was 'different'. (At this point I'm assuming there is some sort of connection/link between Mordeth and Machin Chin)<br />SO the best thing you can do is use your enemies weapon against him. So that is what they did. And now I have lost my train of thought, so I will stop.


created: 2005-07-12 19:53:18
subject: <b>Read TSR again</b>
body:
When Perrin went to the Two Rivers in book 4 he went through the Ways. He didn't even hear Machin Shin anywhere close by and he has the best hearing out of anyone.


created: 2004-11-03 19:23:25
subject: <b>Thanks for the nice read, but I can't agree.</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>In The Eye of the World, Lan speaks of Logain as someone known to him: 'Lan replied. &quot;Avin was right...There was a battle in Ghealdan, and Logain was the victor...&quot;' <br /><br />And then from Rand's POV: '...Logain? That must be the false Dragon...Lan sounded almost as if he knew him...'</b></font><br /><br />Of course Lan knows <i>about him</i> and follow the news. Logain might have been the talk of the WT before Moiraine went to the TR.<br /><br />And this is hardly surprising from the Warder of the Aes Sedai who's been looking for the DR for 20 years.   <br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Where, after all did Siuan Sanche get her idea to cast the Red Ajah as creating the false dragons? </b></font><br /><br />Where?  But from the Red and Black Ajahs of course.<br /><br />There was the scandal about the &quot;vileness&quot; after the Aiel war and apparently few Aes Sedai were privy to the details of it.  They knew Red Sitters &amp; others have been exiled, but I think the &quot;act of accusation&quot; was sealed to the Hall.  In any case, known or not this is very fertile material to spread any kind of rumors about the Reds.<br /><br />The other reason why Siuan thought about that is that it's exactly what Elaida (or Alviarin/Galina) used to accuse Siuan.  They proclaimed she had been plotting in the Hall's back with the DR - but they had no proof and for good measure they invented links between Siuan and Mazrim Taim's escape, all but accusing Siuan straight out of being a DF.<br /><br />Siuan interpreted this as a very personal conflict with Elaida (not even the Red Ajah) and thus miss the Black's involvement - soon enough, when by chance they met him, she brought Logain along with them.  She already wanted to use him to get back at Elaida.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> The Ajahs spend all their time plotting against each other. Suppose Siuan wanted to bring down the Reds before the real Dragon Reborn was revealed.</b></font><br /><br />Hardly.  Siuan was totally confident she could handle the Red Ajah in the Hall with the Blue/White/Green/Brown axis.<br /><br />In TGH she became a bit anxious and puzzled that the Green has broken the alliance and sided with the Red - but she quickly overcame it, by all appearances.<br /><br />See for example her POVs when she is about to call the Hall and announce to them that Rand had Callandor and Moiraine was with him - and the one later on when she reflects that the Hall had voted to acknoweldge Rand unanimously <i>as she was totally certain they would</i> (paraphrase). Siuan also reflected at least one time that even the Reds had read the Prophecies and would not dare touch the Dragon. <br /><br />The Ajahs struggle for power and to push their philosophies, not to destroy one another (not during the current timeframe, anyway).  <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>She wanted above all to protect him, and the main enemy of any man who channels is the Red Ajah.</b></font><br /><br />But the main enemy of the DR is the perception people and AS have of him.<br /><br />To set up a false Dragon would have been a totally irresponsible and ill-advised plan.  Once they knew the DR was born, the last thing Siuan and Moiraine would have wished for is the apparitions of strong false Dragons to terrorize people and remind the Hall of the dangers of men who can channel.<br /><br />Siuan's plan was to put Rand under Moiraine's guidance at least until she could openly announce her support of the Dragon, then get the Hall behind her and launched a wide-scale diplomatic campaign with all the political power of the WT - sending out an army of AS ambassadors to convince all the rulers to unite behind the Dragon.<br /><br /><br />The less chaos and misery spread by male channelers in recent memory, the easier Siuan's task.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Beyond that, she was well aware of the crimes of the Red Ajah following the Aiel War. It would easily occur to her that pinning the blame for such a crime on the already in disrepute Red Ajah would be simple.</b></font><br /><br />The Blue and Green and (to a lesser the White), massively disbelieved the accusations that Siuan Sanche willingly helped Mazrim Taim to escape - thus they largely fled the WT to contest Elaida's takeover.  With Logain's help it was utterly easy for Siuan to turn the tables on Elaida's accusations and blame her and people close to her about <i>Logain</i> (Javindrah, for instance, was one of Elaida's fellow Sitter in the Hall).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Beyond all that was her personal animosity towards the Red, and the animosity that always existed between the Reds and the Blues.</b></font> <br /><br />Red and Blue are powerful political adversaries.  The real conflict and animosity is between Red and Green who agree on nothing and about whom it's said they can barely talk to one another without shouting.  Siuan has a personal conflict with Elaida since NS - not with the Red Ajah.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Meanwhile, in the tower, Siuan was busy spreading rumors, probably through Leane, that the Reds were up to something no good. Aes Sedai of other Ajahs were set up to believe the worst when it came. The only change of the plan was when the Reds acted first and Siuan was deposed. </b></font> <br /><br />This makes no sense.  Siuan started to have major problems with the traditional alliances (Green/White) back at the beginning of New Spring. The major subject of debates in the Hall after that were the three ta'veren and the debate about recruiting.  The Red (and Black Sitters - no doubt)just wouldn't let go about the ta'veren.  Siuan had months to spread her rumors about the Reds and act on them - and she certainly would have if that was her plan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> It was Siuan and Moiraine's plan all along to accuse the Red Ajah of setting up false dragons, in order to destroy the Red, and unite the Tower behind the Dragon Reborn.</b></font> <br /><br />This would have create exactly the opposite result.  Siuan would have forced the Red Ajah to stand openly against her (possibly with them leaving the Tower as the Blues did) and force the Red to oppose in the general population the Armylin's efforts to get Rand accepted by the leaders.<br /><br />It's one thing to unite the Tower behind the Dragon, but losing any support from the by far largest of the Ajah isn't at all wise.<br /><br />Don't forget one crucial thing : if and when Javindrah and Co. are brought to trial and accused of having set up/manipulated Logain, then by the 3 Oaths that bind them the truth will easily come out that Javindrah &amp; Co. never did such a thing (and exposing Logain as the liar.. Siuan wisely just claimed to report what <i>he</i> supposedly told her). Pulling a thing like this in the Tower is much more difficult, especially with Logain there as a prisonner...<br /><br />Siuan's only goal in using Logain was to manipulate Salidar toward the idea of bringing down <i>Elaida</i> and thus go ahead with her own plan to put Egwene on the Amyrlin Seat with her as her grey eminence. It was all about revenge on Elaida. She thought it might bring down the Red once all was said and gone - but she was assuming that with the Rebellion there might not be trials.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 19:29:29
subject: <b>Oopss... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I wrote Siuan begun to have problems with the Green Ajah at the beginning of NS.  Of course I meant TGH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 19:39:47
subject: <b>Does Logain have a Talent?</b>
body:
That thing he saw around Rand... never noticed that before. And what kind of Talent would it be? It almost sounds like Min's, but less frequent...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 19:43:03
subject: <b>I think it's more likely that he can see/feel ta'veren</b>
body:
...and intuitively understood what this glow meant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 19:53:10
subject: <b>Yep, it's the ta'veren seeing talent all right.</b>
body:
Hence Logain saying that he knew Rand would shake the world far more than himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 20:15:54
subject: <b>DomA has covered it nicely</b>
body:
One little sidenote-Moiraine was shaken to her knees, in tDR, when she heard from the innkeeper about someone proclaiming the Dragon. It turned out that he was talking about Masema. Nevertheless, from this reaction, one can see that neither Moiraine nor Siuan would have spread rumors about any false Dragon.<br /><br />Moiraine was scared to death she might have picked the wrong man and the Wheel had cast out another Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 23:49:19
subject: <b>Logain...coolest of the cool</b>
body:
Yeah, DomA said it all.  Looks like it's gonna be another boring week of little to no action at the Theory Post.  Anyway, I feel like adding my 2 cents, so:<br /><br />My general impression of Logain throughout the books has been that he is one Born to Lead, as it were.  When Rand sees him in TEotW, he is staggered:<br /><br />&quot;Logain was a king in every inch of him.  The cage might as well not have been there.  He held himself erect, head high, and looked over the crowd as if they had come to do him hnor.  And wherever his gaze swept, there the people fell silent, staring back in awe...&quot; (TEOTW, paperback ed., 592)<br /><br />Clearly, Logain is gifted in many ways:  as a strong channeler (with the spark), with the rare Talent to see ta'veren, and having that innate &quot;air of command&quot; that people associate with leadership.  He's always been one of my favorite characters.  By LoC, he's back in full swing, taunting Nynaeve, shouting at Egwene, expressing a desire to join the Black Tower... and to think that he just recieved a last name in this book!<br /><br />By the end of CoT, his influence in future books is undeniable.  He's already presented a brooding counterpoint to Rand in denying to his face that the Dragon Reborn cleansed saidin.  He's got a regular cult of personality among the Asha'man (cool guys, too, not the snobs that Taim's got).  And finally, most telling in my opinion, Min has classified him  with Dobraine and Bashere in the category of people that RAND CAN'T DO WITHOUT!!!  Logain is clearly going to see some action in the next couple of books.  Personally, I can't wait.<br /><br />So, in conclusion, Logain didn't need Moiraine to set up False Dragonship for him... he could do it just fine by himself, thank you.


created: 2004-11-04 03:28:51
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Moi wouldn't do it. And Siuan couldn't either, not before she was free of the oaths. <br /><br />I agree with logain being a true leader though. Maybe he just became a false dragin because he allready was a leader when he started to channel. Everyone just assumed he was DR.<br /><br />I agree also that there's much more to see about this man. The halo Min saw not being the least of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-04 05:37:41
subject: <b>I agree with DomA</b>
body:
And the others who disagree.<br /><br />Another evidence that Siuan and Moiraine had nothing to do with Logain before is in TGH, ch.5, when they talk about the Dragon Reborn:<br /><br />' &quot;Sometimes doubt fills me, Moiraine. [...] What if Logain was the one? He could channel, before the Reds brought him to the White Tower, and we gentled him.him. So can Mazrim Taim, the man in Saldaea. What if it is him? There are sisters in Saldaea already; he may be taken by now. What if we have been wrong since the start? What happens if the Dragon Reborn is gentled before the Last Battle even begins? Even prophecy can fail if the one prophesied is slain or gentled. And then we face the Dark One naked to the storm.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Neither of them is the one, Siuan. The Pattern does not demand a Dragon, but the one true Dragon. Until he proclaims himself, the Pattern will continue to throw up false Dragons, but after that there will be no others. If Logain or the other were the one, there would be no others.&quot; '<br /><br />This conversation clearly shows that both had nothing to do with Logain or any other false Dragons.


created: 2004-11-04 12:55:34
subject: <b>that would be...</b>
body:
<i>That thing he saw around Rand... never noticed that before. And what kind of Talent would it be?</i><br /><br />That would be Seeing Ta'veren, I believe. Like when Nicola sees a halo around Mat in CoS


created: 2004-11-04 21:33:27
subject: <b>Could Logain be telling the truth?</b>
body:
To be honest, I never really doubted Logain's story!  Am I too gullible?  What I assumed was that not all Reds knew about it (e.g., Pevara, maybe even Elaida).  I figured this would have been Galina or Javindra's idea, working along with Katerine or Liandrin to promote an increased fear and hatred of male channelers just before the ascent of the real Dragon.  The Red Ajah has no shortage of Black members, and Reds need little external encouragement to want to increase their prestige in the Hall.  <br /><br />Logain was lying?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-04 23:41:13
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Well, we know that Suian at least told Logain to talk about the Reds setting him up.  Egwene talks about this when she and Suian are discussing the Oath Rod in POD.  Egwene tries to justify the removal of the Oaths by reminding Suian that the only thing that galvanized the Hall into action was Logain's claim (backed up by &quot;one who cannot lie,&quot; i.e. Siuan) that the Reds had set him up.<br /><br />I guess it's POSSIBLE that Logain could have really been set up by the Reds.  But let's look at the facts:<br /><br />1.  The Red Ajah was closely tied in with the BA's search-and-destroy program after the Aiel War.  Galina, the Red AH, told all the Reds to gentle on site every man they found who channeled.<br /><br />2.  After Ishy punished the BA (Jarna Malari, really) for instituting this program, the Red's campaign continued, culminating in the death of Sierin Vayu a couple of years later at the hands of the Reds (it's wierd though, because Alviarin disavows any knowledge of Vayu's fate, but Chesmal Emry, one of Liandrin's 13, talks about her part in it).<br /><br />3.  After the death of Vayu, the Red's violation of Tower Law comes to light and the three Red Sitters, among them Toviene Gazal, are exiled.  It's at this time that at least Pevara becomes a Sitter.  We don't know how old Javindhra is, so she could have also been a replacement.  The other Sitter is unknown, I'll get to that.<br /><br />4.  Logain says that several years ago the Reds found him in Ghealdan.  He mentions two Aes Sedai by name:  Javindhra and Barasine.  He also says that &quot;they mentioned Elaida, as if she knew what they were about.&quot;  So this means that Javindhra wasn't a Sitter at this point, because such a glaring error as a Sitter out of the Tower setting up false Dragons would have poked a hole in Logain's story right away.<br /><br />So what's interesting about Logain's story is that he mentions Elaida.  But Elaida disavows all knowledge of it.  That's a big discrepancy.  In addition, let's think about the position of the Reds after the scandal came out.  They had just been slapped down, and all three Sitters had been exiled.  The replacements were probably not ready for Sitting, which would place them at a disadvantage in the Hall.  Would they be eager to break Tower Law yet AGAIN by setting up False Dragons?  It's unlikely.<br /><br />Another thing is the simple fact that Elaida has no knowledge of it.  If it was Galina setting up False Dragons, this doesn't make sense.  What's Elaida's position among the Red Ajah?<br /><br />1.  She's particularly strong in the Power, at the level of Moiraine and Siuan.<br />2.  She has enough influence among her Ajah to get herself appointed to the position of Sitter almost instantly after being fired as Morgase's advisor.  One would think that this would lower her status, but instead she immediately joins that Hall (this raises the interesting question of who left/was replaced.  Don't tell me that Elaida was advising Morgase AND was a Sitter).<br />3.  In ACoS, Elaida describes Galina as the person that she trusts above any other Sitter.  This implies some sort of relationship or confidences shared between them.<br /><br />So, in conclusion, while Logain's story is plausible (indeed, plausible enough to fool everyone in Salidar), looking at the Red's status during that timeframe, Elaida's high status among her Ajah, and her friendship with Galina, it's unlikely that Logain's story is true.


created: 2004-11-05 11:30:04
subject: <b>No I disagree</b>
body:
They did not concoct the idea or plot of the Red Ajah being responsible for the false Dragons before she got unseated and stilled.  You gotta remember that Siuan is Aes Sedai to her bones.  She wouldn&#8217;t have tolerated anything negative being spread about Aes Sedai that could be spread out across the world.  She was always thinking about how sisters could use the preconceived ideas that the common people had about Aes Sedai to help them be viewed in special and unknown categories.  <br />She got stilled and booted out.  She couldn&#8217;t channel any longer and wanted revenge, but she also said something about if Elaida did it to keep the tower strong she could of almost understood.  But Elaida did it for her own power and purposes and that is the reason she took Logain and started the rumors.  That was the only way she could exact her revenge.  <br />So no this was not pre-planed and set into motion earlier in the series.  She saw the opportunity when she saw Logain and jumped on it at that time.<br />


created: 2004-11-05 11:59:46
subject: <b>I'm still wondering</b>
body:
AgingComputer, you make some good points, but there are still a few aspects that have me wondering whether Logain's story is really an utter fabrication.<br /><br />If we assume Logain is lying about parts of his story, then certainly the suggestion that Elaida was aware of Javindra and Barasine's plans could be a lie (and certainly one that will galvanize the Salidarians against her).<br /><br />The fact that the Reds lost so much face with the search and destroy method might give them all the more reason to try anything to increase their clout.  Certainly reining in a false dragon would do it.  Sure, it would be a super-risky maneuver, and the Reds might not have even thought of it themselves.  I'm still willing to bet it was a BA ploy to increase fear of male channelers.  But Galina was the Highest Red and the Highest Black.  And I'm willing to bet she spent 19 years making sure that Elaida's hatred of Moiraine and Siuan was on a steady burn.  But that's a side point.  Most of the Tower doesn't even know exactly why the Red Sitters were exiled - it was sealed to the flame.  Pevara knows something happened, but clearly Seaine doesn't (erm, I can't remember the spelling and they're all spelled almsot the same, but I'm referring to the White BA hunter).<br /><br />That Galina didn't tell Elaida the truth (and hence Elaida was clueless) shouldn't be necessarily taken as evidence that Logain is lying.  Galina had much clout over Elaida, and with Elaida stuck in Andor, it wouldn't be so hard to keep her out of the loop.  Elaida is definitely not Black.  A megalomanic, but not Black.  She's like Dolores Umbridge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> (assuming folks have read HP).  Sure she has tons of clout among Reds, but she's lower than Galina, and out of the way in Andor.  <br />Am I correct in assuming Javindra is a known Black?  Could be Barasine is/was too.<br /><br />Anyway, I think part of Logain's story is false (especially about Elaida), but I'm not going to discount it entirely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-05 15:03:52
subject: <b>Logain and the Reds</b>
body:
Nope, we don't know that Javindhra is BA.  The only TAS we know are BA are Talene Minly, the Green Sitter, and Atuan Larisett (whom I forget her Ajah, pretty sure it's Yellow or Brown) who is mentioned in TDR as teaching novice classes.  <br /><br />Anyways, it all falls down to who was a sitter at the time of Logain's proclaiming himself a False Dragon.  Logain says that the Reds found him eight years ago in LOC.  (I'm pretty sure it was eight, I don't have the book on me.  It was a while ago, anyways.)  We don't know who was a Sitter at that time, unfortunately.<br /><br />Pre-TDR:  Pevara is the only known Red Sitter.  The other two are mysteries (though Teslyn was probably one).<br />Post-TDR:  Elaida becomes a Sitter.  The old Sitter steps down (or died, but I think we would have heard about that).<br />Presently:  Pevara, Duhara, and Javindhra.<br /><br />So Whats Up with the Red Sitters?  Well, in FOH, Javindhra is mentioned as a member of Elaida's junta, but not as a Sitter.  At this point, Teslyn is a Sitter but gets unchaired by Elaida.  We know practically nothing about Duhara, so we don't know exactly what happened.  I'm leaning towards Teslyn and Pevara being the pre-schism Sitters (since Teslyn is old enough to teach Joline Maza novice classes), and Duhara is Elaida's replacement and Javindhra is Teslyn's (once she was kicked out and shipped off to Ebou Dar).<br /><br />So:  It's unlikely that Galina went off half-cocked setting up False Dragons without the Sitter's approval or at the very least knowledge of it.  Pevara's lack of knowledge  can be explained by the fact that she is sort of a &quot;rebel&quot; within the Hall.  Teslyn is obviously not a strong supporter of Galina/Elaida because Elaida banishes her.  It's unlikely that Galina would inform her about such a plot.  So it really falls down to the last, &quot;mystery&quot; Sitter, whom Elaida replaced when she arrived in TV.  I theorize that this &quot;mystery&quot; Sitter was ordered to resign by Galina, so Elaida (who was more compliant and willing to incite rebellion) could become a Sitter.  Therefore, since all THREE Red Sitters are more liberal at the &quot;eight years ago&quot; timeframe Logain gives, I don't think it's likely that Galina was setting up False Dragons with Red approval.<br /><br />And as for a BA plot, well, look at it this way:  We don't know if Javindhra's black, and I don't think we've even seen Barasine on-screen.  So there's no evidence there.  But doesn't it stand to reason that if Logain, a powerful channeler and that &quot;born to lead&quot; air that he has about him, would be turned to the Shadow if the BA was behind it?  After all, that's what everyone is speculating about Mazrim Taim.  Go figure.  I still don't think it's likely that the Reds set up Logain, either through the Red Ajah or as a result of a BA plot.


created: 2004-11-05 15:18:32
subject: <b>convincing argument</b>
body:
Well, I'm always willing to change my mind in the face of reality, but I won't be fully convinced until Jordan says it outright...15 years from now when the next book comes out.<br /><br />Must be my knee-jerk Reds-are-evil-misanthropes (except Pevara) response.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-06 12:00:09
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
but i think that the reason that the lie was so easily accepted is simply because no noe likes the Reds.  They're just piss too many people off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">badassasha'man<br />Life is Good</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-07 18:41:58
subject: <b>There's no mystery as to who the three Red Sitters were in the original Hall</b>
body:
Pevara, Teslyn (Sitter for 15 years) and Elaida. Even though she wasn't there much of the time.<br /><br />This is all described full in the 'Who Were The Original Sitters FAQ.'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-08 01:36:09
subject: <b>Regard Rand's Remark About Lan:</b>
body:
Rand doesn't think it sounds like Lan _knew of_ Logain, he thinks that it sounds like he _knew_ him.  And I don't think the mere fact that Lan knew Logain's name would have been enough for Rand to make that comment.  There must have been something about Lan's tone that implied personal knowledge.<br />That said, I don't agree with the theory as a whole; it goes against a lot that we know from Siuan and Moiraine's thoughts throughout the books.  I just don't think we can dismiss out of hand the possibility that Lan met Logain at some point.


created: 2004-11-08 01:40:48
subject: <b>Wait, wait, wait...</b>
body:
Linda_sedai, are you telling me that Elaida was Sitting for the Reds AND the advisor to the most powerful queen in the known world?  AT THE SAME TIME??  I'm not denying that Elaida was a Sitter when Suian was deposed.  But she was clearly NOT a Sitter while she was advisor to Morgase!  Remember, this is the woman who immediately attached herself to House Trakand when it became apparent that they would win the Succession.  I don't think that Elaida would let anything get in the way of that, and Sitting would just be a distraction.  Not to mention that if there was an emergency meeting of the Hall, Elaida would not be in attendance, and the Reds would be at a disadvantage!  Galina for one would not stand for this.  Don't believe me?  Here's some quotes from TGH:<br /><br /><i>Siuan</i>: &quot;Elaida is in Tar Valon, Daughter.  She came with Elayne and Gawyn.&quot;<br /><i>Moiraine</i>: &quot;I am surprised, Mother.  This is no time for Morgase to be without Aes Sedai counsel.&quot;<br /><br />and later:<br /><br /><i>Siuan</i>: &quot;Elaida had another reason for coming to Tar Valon, Daughter... She told the Hall of the Tower that you are meddling with a young man who is <i>ta'veren</i>, and dangerous...&quot; (TGH, paperback ed., pp56-7)<br /><br />Look at the implications of these quotes.  In the first place, Moiraine is surprised by Elaida's presence in Tar Valon.  Why would she be surprised if Elaida is currently Sitting?  She should be constantly travelling back and forth between the Tower and Andor!  Secondly, Siuan implies that Elaida had two reasons for coming to the Tower:  Escorting Elayne and Gawyn, and informing the Hall about Rand.  Not to fulfill her duty as a Sitter.  Remember, Seaine thinks that after becoming a Sitter, she was hardly aware of the world outside the Tower!  For the Sitters, the politics of the Hall is everything.  The fiercely competitive Red Ajah, especially, would not allow one of their Sitters to have their attention divided.<br /><br />So, in conclusion, there is NO WAY that Elaida could be a Red Sitter AND the advisor to Morgase.  After Morgase fired her, however, Elaida still had enough influence to become a Sitter (either that, or Galina got her the job).  So who was the Sitter before TDR, and why did she step down?  It probably doesn't matter, but I would be very interested to know.  Sorry if I come across a little strong, and I don't mean to be bashing the FAQ, but facts are facts... and the facts in this case point to Elaida NOT being a Sitter while she was advisor to Morgase.<br /><br />Of course, it could all be a horrible RJ slipup...


created: 2004-11-08 12:18:08
subject: <b>I agree with AgingComputer about Elaida</b>
body:
She can't have been a Sitter while she was advisor to Morgase - it just doesn't make sense politically.  I don't think this is a mistake Jordan made either; if there was a mistake made on this issue it was to omit mentionning that Elaida has been raised Sitter - but that might have been intentional on Jordan's part, not to put too much emphasis on Siuan's growing problems with the Red Ajah.<br /><br />The fact Elaida became Sitter is part of the BA plot to bring down Siuan Sanche. There's little doubt in my mind Galina/Alviarin wished Elaida's influence and popularity in the WT to increase - and the fact the Red raised her to the Hall at the time she was a central player in a controversy about Siuan and the ta'veren did just that and sent the message to the Hall the Red Ajah was very serious in its opposition to Siuan Sanche's recent decisions and didn't intend to let the issue abate.  <br /><br />It might also have been part, concurrently, of the Shadow's schemes to prepare for Rahvin's arrival in Andor - where Elaida's presence would have been a liability to Rhavin - or at best a useless loss for Galina of a powerful Red she had far better uses for than being a compelled puppet of Rahvin in Andor. The Black Ajah betrayed the young Red spy in the palace as soon as they learned about her. It's interesting that Javindrah was the one to mention her during a council in Alviarin's presence and right after this the BA acted to have her neutralized - which probably indicates Javindrah herself isn't BA and Galina wasn't aware of this sister in Caemlyn.<br /><br />When Morgase dismissed Elaida it is quite possible Galina calculated that a position of Sitter would not only serve the BA plans to seize control of the WT, but it would make Elaida (who must have been positively furious) abandon her efforts to get back in Morgase's graces. <br /><br />So a Red Sitter in place was asked by Galina to retire in Elaida's favor.  IMO there is little doubt Elaida was used all along by Galina, as far back as TGH, and incited back then to come in person report to the Hall about Moiraine's actions with the three ta'veren - after sending letter after letter to people in the Tower and making sure Siuan Sanche was one of the recipients and couldn't claim to the Hall she wasn't aware of the situation. <br /><br />Elaida was pretty popular back then, as her announcement that she had found Elayne, heiress to a throne and a channeler of great potential, was still recent enough for Siuan to mention it to Moiraine as something that had given the Red influence in the Hall recently.<br /><br />I don't think there's any way the Red Ajah, that must fight off the Green and the Blue in a Hall that is often deadlocked, would let one of its Sitter out of Tar Valon regularly (travel in winter is difficult, etc.). <br /><br />It was mentionned a few times that the Hall's central debate since the series began was about the falling numbers of recruits and the reduction in strength of the new women who came to the Tower (later, it's mentionned by Siuan the debates about the ta'veren became as &quot;popular&quot; as the other). The debate about recruiting is one on which the Hall was deadlocked - and one very important to the Red Ajah (notably because of the &quot;culling&quot; theories that clash with the Red views). This debate is the prominent reason why finding Elayne gave such an advantage to the Red Ajah (it undermined the Blue's argument about culling) and why in return Moiraine thought that finding Egwene and Nynaeve in the TR would more than balance this victory of the Red(because the two TR girls reinforced the culling theory). Of course this put weigth to the theory that Verin and Alanna went to the Two Rivers because of personal interest in the ta'veren but that the official reason for the mission was the debate in the Hall (Green and Brown side with the Blue in the debate).  Who organized the mission is debatable, but I believe Siuan, through Sheriam, is behind it (it took place after Alanna showed too much interest in Egwene and Nynaeve and this was reported to Siuan - and Siuan feared Verin knew too much).  I think Siuan had the passionaria of recruitement, Sheriam, ask Verin and Alanna to go to the TR to investigate.<br /><br />There are a few references to the fact an absentee Sitter doesn't cast a vote and isn't counted in the number for the consensus.  The frequent absence of a Red Sitter would undermine the Red alliances with other Ajahs in the Hall because they would lose a third of their weight.  <br /><br />A good example of this political reality is the speed at which the Ajah Heads replaced the Sitters who departed Tar Valon with the Blue Ajah (before they were declared &quot;Rebels&quot; or any news of a gathering reached TV). It's very likely that the Red Ajah even had a remplacement Sitter in place in the vote to raise Elaida. <br /><br />IMHO, there are likely rules set in Tower Law that prevent the Sitters from leaving the island without approval of the Hall and Amyrlin - similar to the Law the Keeper is apparently subjected to. A Sitter's job and responsabilites are to be there to debate, to vote and to represent her Ajah, not to go wander around.  It's likely the Hall is forbidden to leave the Tower when the Amyrlin is absent.<br /><br />This measure would exist notably to prevent collusion and rebellion, otherwise a group of Sitters might plot to go in hiding and declare they have deposed the Amyrlin and raised a new one etc. The additional discretionary power the Amyrlin has to unchair any Sitter may also in part be a failsafe against such plots, as the power the Ajahs have to send back the same Sitter to the Hall seem to indicate (this measure of Tower Law virtually limits the power of the Amyrlin to depose Sitters to crisis situations only). <br /><br />There are some good arguments to be made against Duhara and Javindrah being Black Ajah.<br /><br />1. The previous Red Sitters (Elaida, Teslyn, Pevara or even previously Toveine Gazal) weren't Black Ajah even though we were already in the &quot;years of the Dragon&quot; - which might indicate a trend in Galina's ways.<br /><br />2. Galina has been Head for 18 years and leads the Sitters - removing much of the need for them to be Black.<br /><br />3. The Red Sitters are totally expected to side with the Red Amyrlin anyway - their first since Bonhwin (and we've seen what happened to the one who didn't; Galina let her be deposed by Elaida and exiled).<br /><br />4. Galina is ambitious and cunning and naming Black Sitters would greatly increase Alviarin's influence over the affairs of the Red Ajah. Galina most definitely sees herself as both a Red and a Black and would be jealous of her independance. Preventing the election of Black Sitters for the Red forces Alviarin to center her strategies for the Red Ajah on Galina alone - and Alviarin is cunning enough to know that if she orders Galina to name BA Sitters Galina will see this as a move to reduce her position and a sign Alviarin doesn't trust her : Daes'Daemar.<br /><br />5. From Galina's orders Black Sitters are for more likely to discover in time that Galina is Black Ajah - and Galina is aware knowledge is power (especially so close to the top of the Red hierarchy).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-08 12:38:00
subject: <b>Another good reason for a Law preventing Sitters to leave</b>
body:
with approval is that enough of them could hide so that the Hall wouldn't have its quorum and couldn't vote. The Amyrlin can issue decrees but she needs the Hall to implement many of them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-08 16:48:25
subject: <b>Spot on, DomA</b>
body:
Glad you and your fertile mind could back me up on this one.  All the speculation here makes me want to know even more who the Sitter was that Elaida replaced.  It would seem like if she wanted to replace anyone, it would be Pevara, with her weird, liberal views on men and Warders.  Perhaps Pevara was too senior for Galina to uncerimoniously bump out for a woman who has barely had the shawl for thrity years.  I wonder if this mystery Sitter will play a part in the future.


created: 2004-11-23 21:15:08
subject: <b>My biggest problem</b>
body:
You said,(paraphrasing) that Siuan and Moiraine where trying to do this(blaming the red ajah for a false dragon) to get the tower &quot;behind him&quot;. Moiraine spent with Siuan's help, FOUR BOOKS trying to control him! I was almost undone at your mere comment of such a thing.


created: 2004-11-05 01:02:37
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Great job with the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I rather enjoyed reading it, and it really does make sense. It also helps me with the theory I am writing (not that I will steal your ideas) which involves Demandred mainly.<br /><br />You really must have thought this out well. It fits together nicely. Excellent job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>CW</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-05 02:22:53
subject: <b>I enjoyed it...</b>
body:
It was a nice theory, that is well written. Good job. I agree with most of it because it is mainly just pointing out what was there for anyone to see. There were parts you extrapolated on that I agree with too. All in all, what I'm trying to say is it was a nice read that I agree with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-05 11:39:01
subject: <b>Works Nicely Except...</b>
body:
The reasoning about the Whitecloaks is a little thin. It's possible that the Whitecloaks became hard and militant simply because the world was at war for over a century and only organizations that militarized were able to survive.  And as for hatred of Aes Sedai, that's something that comes naturally to a lot of groups, including most of the population of Tear (unless you think Ishy was behind that, too).  <br />Additionally, Ishy bragged to Rand about practically every little thing he'd ever done, from corrupting Hawkwing to freaking out Jain Farstrider, and he never mentioned the Whitecloaks.  Why not?  His whole objective was to convince Rand that he was all-powerful, so why not mention that even the so-called Children of the Light were really his children?<br />I'd also like to hear you reconcile this Forsaken/Whitecloak connection with the presence of Padan Fain in Amador from shortly after the end of TGH until sometime before the start of TSR.  Carridin's failure to recognize Fain is understandable (he'd probably never met him before), but how could Ishy or Demmy fail to notice his presence if they were making regular visits to the Fortress of the Light?  The Shadow has wanted him dead ever since Falme, and there is evidence that the Forsaken can somehow sense Mordeth's taint (see Aginor's remarks at the Eye).<br />That said, I see nothing to rule out close Forsaken involvement with the Whitecloaks starting sometime after Fain's departure from Amador.  As you said, Valda and Asunawa have done some suspicious stuff, including things that have proven awfully convenient for the Seanchan.


created: 2004-11-05 12:07:01
subject: <b>Overall a good reading, but...</b>
body:
Two critical comments:<br /><br /><b> So now the Forsaken are free to pick up the pieces of Ishamael&#8217;s network. For instance, after the rout at Falme, the Seanchan have been scattered, and, tellingly, in Suroth&#8217;s POV in TSR, the only indication of her Dark Persuasion is the last lines of her section: [Referring to Rand] &#8220;But if &#8211; when I take him, do I give him to the Empress? That is the question.&#8221; (TSR, paperback ed., p50) Clearly she is rethinking her oaths to the Dark One, now that her master hasn&#8217;t contacted her in months. However, when Morgase confronts her in ACoS, she no longer has any &#8216;issues&#8217; with the Empress and is clearly ready to betray her at the drop of a hat. Somebody has been talking to Suroth&#8230;<br /><br />Who was it, then? Not Semirhage, that&#8217;s for certain. She&#8217;s been stuck over in Seanchan, tutoring her &#8220;wilful charge,&#8221; Tuon. If she doesn&#8217;t have time to attend important Forsaken Coffee Hours (and Demandred seems to think that this is a legit excuse in WH), then she&#8217;s not about to be going gating back and forth between Cantorin and Seandar. Demandred, on the other hand, is a much more likely candidate. Let&#8217;s look at the facts. </b><br /><br />Ishamael/Moridin is seen in ACoS. <br />We don't know the exact timing, but it seems likely that Moridin was reincarnated in the middle or end of LoC at the latest.<br />That means Moridin could have talked to Suroth as well.<br /><br /><br />The second comment on the idea that Demandred controls the WC, especially Asunawa.<br /><br />First, Asunawa's PoV in LoC, ch.31, doesn't indicate any Compulsion (like Niall's or Valda's PoV); so it has to be new, if he is under Compulsion.<br /><br />But if Demandred wanted to control the WC, why didn't he use Compulsion on Niall or now Valda? <br /><br />It would make much more sense since both are more important WC than Asunawa, who even has to bend to Valda's plan in CoT, prologue, although he wants to go to Murandy.<br />Consequently this means that Demandred actually doesn't control the WC at the moment, even if he is Asunawa's master.<br /><br />Therefore I doubt that Demandred has much to do with the WC and is rather involved with Masema &amp; the Dragonsworn. <br />After all Masema even deals now with Suroth and the Seanchan (and doesn't fight with them like the WC).<br />


created: 2004-11-05 12:21:56
subject: <b>What about Moggy?</b>
body:
I'd like to see you address how Moghedien fits into all of this.  We know that for a time she was controlling Liandrin's bunch in Tanchico.  What role does she play in your explanation?<br /><br />Also, if Ishy/Demmy were in control of the Whitecloaks, what explains their forebearance on dealing with Salidar from the beginning?  Salidar is right on the border of Amadicia and could have been easy pickings for the Children (who needed no motivation to attack witches) and whatever Black Ajah were in Salidar.  I don't see how it fit into anyone's plans to allow the Salidar AS to consolidate their strength.<br /><br />As to Ishy having founded the Whitecloaks, I think you missed a couple possible connections.  First, there is a similarity between Luthair (Artur's kid) and Lothair.  Not that solid, I know, but the Children remind me of the Knights Templar or even the Round Table (and the correlation between Artur and King Arthur is more than obvious).  Second, the ascetic philosophy of the Children reminds me of Ishy's old days as a thinker himself.  <br /><br />At any rate, I think it at least likely that Ishy molded the Children after they were created, rather than having founded them himself.  He was more of a whisperer during the Third Age, anyway.  One question is how this would have synced with those Ogier theories about Ishy's partial release every so often for forty year periods.  Maybe the Children just became dogmatic on their own - perhaps a scathing indictment of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages and Renaissance - think Inquisitors.<br /><br />Overall, very interesting and well put together.<br /><br />TFK<br /><br />


created: 2004-11-05 15:00:11
subject: <b>This is pretty solid,</b>
body:
but I agree with Etzel's comments.  Also, on The Fisher King's issue with Moghedien, I agree.  If Meesana was still giving orders to Liandrin and company, why didn't she seem to have a problem with it when Moghedien showed up and took control of them.


created: 2004-11-05 16:07:18
subject: <b>Thanks for your comments</b>
body:
I'm just glad to get a theory out there.  I submitted this one on Tuesday and it was posted on Wednesday!  I was amazed!  Anyway, on to comments:<br /><br />PseudoDragon and Phelix:<br />Thanks for your support.  These parallels have been bouncing around inside my head for a while and I recently figured I should put them to theory.<br /><br />Youker:<br /><b>The reasoning about the Whitecloaks is a little thin. It's possible that the Whitecloaks became hard and militant simply because the world was at war for over a century and only organizations that militarized were able to survive. And as for hatred of Aes Sedai, that's something that comes naturally to a lot of groups, including most of the population of Tear (unless you think Ishy was behind that, too).</b><br /><br />My reasoning with the Whitecloaks is that the parallels between Hawkwing's actions and the change in the Children's are nearly identical.  Since they are during the same time frame, while Ishy is still active, I think it's only natural that he had some hand in the change that came over them.  Just because a society is militarized, doesn't mean that they have to become all nasty like the Children are.  By all accounts, Lothair Mantelar and <i>The Way of the Light</i> are kind of like the Abraham and Bible of the Children.  Why have their methods come so far from the founding ideals when they have the rhetoric right in front of them?<br /><br />As for Tear, their problem with the One Power comes from <i>Callandor</i> and the <i>Karaethon Cycle</i>.  Having their unbeatable fortress being a stepping stone for the Dragon Reborn really chafes at them.  Even owning a copy of the Prophecies is enough to toss you in jail.  Tear (or rather the High Lords) hate the Power because it marks the end of their dominion and institutes a new ruler.<br /><br /><b>Additionally, Ishy bragged to Rand about practically every little thing he'd ever done, from corrupting Hawkwing to freaking out Jain Farstrider, and he never mentioned the Whitecloaks. Why not? His whole objective was to convince Rand that he was all-powerful, so why not mention that even the so-called Children of the Light were really his children?</b><br /><br />Ishy only mentions stuff that a kid from the backwater Two Rivers would know about.  Rand has read the <i>Travels of Jain Farstrider</i> and has heard about the Aes Sedai and Artur Hawkwing.  But when he first sees the Children in Baerlon, he doesn't really know who they are.  Ishy only mentions the stuff he thinks will directly affect Rand.<br /><br /><b>I'd also like to hear you reconcile this Forsaken/Whitecloak connection with the presence of Padan Fain in Amador from shortly after the end of TGH until sometime before the start of TSR. Carridin's failure to recognize Fain is understandable (he'd probably never met him before), but how could Ishy or Demmy fail to notice his presence if they were making regular visits to the Fortress of the Light? The Shadow has wanted him dead ever since Falme, and there is evidence that the Forsaken can somehow sense Mordeth's taint (see Aginor's remarks at the Eye).</b><br /><br />First off, it's likely that the only Forsaken who knew Fain's true potential for screwing things up was Ishy, but, as I've said, he's out of commission for a while between TGH and TDR, which is when Demandred assumes power with the Children.  I'm sure that Demandred was aware of Fain, but the simple fact is, Fain's goals pretty much coincided with Demandred's at this point.  Fain was getting Niall to not turst the Dragon and incite chaos (Niall credits Ordieth with the plan to &quot;unleash the rabid lion in the streets&quot; ).  For the moment, anyways, the goals of Fain and the Shadow coincide.<br /><br />Of course, Ishy should know better -- but by the time he's back in action in TDR he's lost control of things to the extent that he decides it's time to kill Rand.  If you look at Egwene's dream about the Forsaken in TDR, it's pretty clear that Ishy is focused solely on Rand.  All his other projects -- including Fain -- have gone out the window.  When Ishy makes his comeback as Moridin, however, he has a renewed knowledge that little things, like Fain, can have a big impact in the long run, which is what he says at the Forsaken Coffee Hour.  I don't think any others of the Forsaken realize Fain's potential for disaster.  It's not at all implausible that Demandred was aware of Fain's presence in the Fortress of the Light...but just left him alone.<br /><br />Etzel:<br /><b>Ishamael/Moridin is seen in ACoS.  We don't know the exact timing, but it seems likely that Moridin was reincarnated in the middle or end of LoC at the latest.  That means Moridin could have talked to Suroth as well.</b><br /><br />True, but Sammael's comments of &quot;proxies to the south&quot; tends to support Demandred's hand in that area, not Moridin's.  Sammael clearly recognizes Demandred's style.<br /><br /><b>The second comment on the idea that Demandred controls the WC, especially Asunawa.  First, Asunawa's PoV in LoC, ch.31, doesn't indicate any Compulsion (like Niall's or Valda's PoV); so it has to be new, if he is under Compulsion.  But if Demandred wanted to control the WC, why didn't he use Compulsion on Niall or now Valda? </b><br /><br />First off, I would like to argue that throughout the books, Niall seems a little off-kilter.  His grand plan to unite the nations never seems to be going anywhere, and his delusions of grandeur seem to parallel Elaida's, who we know was influenced to some extent by Galina/Alviarin.  This may not be an indication of Compulsion, but Niall's actions clearly coincide with the Shadow's.  Up until Niall poked his nose back into Tarabon, there was no real need TO Compulse him.  <br /><br />Another thing that could be argued is that Niall is far too public a figure to Compulse directly.  Rahvin turns Morgase into a puddle of snivelling goo.  If Demandred was exercising such direct control over Niall, it would be hard for him to pull the strings.  The Children are a tightly-knit society, and any change in Niall's already precarious condition would result in him getting fired by the Council of the Anointed.  And since Demandred is spreading himself thin amongst many different proxies, he is unable to take the full-time job of Lord Captain-Commander.<br /><br />So Demandred has Carridin to fulfil the Shadow's goals with the Children, who works with Niall very closely throughout TDR-LOC.  However, once Carridin falls out of favor with Niall and is shipped off to Ebou Dar, Demandred needs somebody new to influence.  This is when he starts directly Compulsing Asunawa, who, as a co-conspirator with Valda to kill Niall, now has a high level of influence over the new Lord Captain-Commander (i.e. blackmail).<br /><br /><b>It would make much more sense since both are more important WC than Asunawa, who even has to bend to Valda's plan in CoT, prologue, although he wants to go to Murandy.<br />Consequently this means that Demandred actually doesn't control the WC at the moment, even if he is Asunawa's master.</b><br /><br />Well, actually, since Asunawa is showing symptoms of Morgase-like Compulsion resistance, it stands to reason that Valda's plan works well in Demandred's plans, and that the &quot;real&quot; Asunawa is protesting for this reason.<br /><br /><b>Therefore I doubt that Demandred has much to do with the WC and is rather involved with Masema &amp; the Dragonsworn. <br />After all Masema even deals now with Suroth and the Seanchan (and doesn't fight with them like the WC).</b><br /><br />Yeah, Demandred probably has ties to the Dragonsworn too.  It makes sense that Demandred has generalled the situation in the south-west into place.<br /><br />The Fisher King:<br /><b>I'd like to see you address how Moghedien fits into all of this. We know that for a time she was controlling Liandrin's bunch in Tanchico. What role does she play in your explanation?</b><br /><br />Well, actually, Moggy wasn't controlling Liandrin and Co. in Tanchico.  While Moggy, as Glydin, is spying on the BA, she is not directly influencing them.  Their goal is to find the male <i>a'dam</i> (which coincides with Mesaana's goals to control Rand), but Moggy tells Nynaeve that she would just leave the Sad Bracelets where they are.  Moggy recognizes that the BA are under the direct command of anther Forsaken, and spies on them -- typical Moggy M.O.<br /><br /><b>Also, if Ishy/Demmy were in control of the Whitecloaks, what explains their forebearance on dealing with Salidar from the beginning? Salidar is right on the border of Amadicia and could have been easy pickings for the Children (who needed no motivation to attack witches) and whatever Black Ajah were in Salidar. I don't see how it fit into anyone's plans to allow the Salidar AS to consolidate their strength.</b><br /><br />This is easy to explain.  The SAS and TAS conflict is a major development for the Shadow.  In the first place, it was Mesaana who masterminded it in the first place.  Demandred might not want to mess with her plans.  In the second place, in LOC, Demandred is well aware of the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; plan.  Destroying the SAS would weaken the Tower in the long run, but it would be whole once again, and all the unaligned Aes Sedai would return to the Tower.  No, destroying the SAS is the last thing the Shadow would want.  Remember how relieved Carridin is in LOC when Niall orders him to stay away from the SAS at all costs.<br /><br /><b>At any rate, I think it at least likely that Ishy molded the Children after they were created, rather than having founded them himself. He was more of a whisperer during the Third Age, anyway.</b><br /><br />Yeah, this is what I meant in the theory.  If it came across as me saying that Ishy FOUNDED the Whitecloacks, that wasn't my intention.  Sorry if there was any confusion.<br /><br /><b>Overall, very interesting and well put together.</b><br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Fred Gaidin:<br /><b>but I agree with Etzel's comments. Also, on The Fisher King's issue with Moghedien, I agree. If Meesana was still giving orders to Liandrin and company, why didn't she seem to have a problem with it when Moghedien showed up and took control of them.</b><br /><br />See above for Moghedien in Tanchico.  So.  What was Liandrin and Co. up to in TDR and TSR?  Well, first they were to help Be'lal in Tear.  Then they were to go to Tanchico.  This comes from Amico, who heard it from Liandrin by accident.  After the Tanchico debacle, Liandrin and Co. flee to Amadicia.  And stay there.  Clearly, they are waiting for further instructions.  This is indicative of one of two possibilities.  <br /><br />1) Tanchico was as far as Mesaana told Liandrin to go.  Since Mesaana has not contacted Liandrin with further orders, they sit in Amador until notified.  Anyways, Liandrin probably recieved her orders from Alviarin.  She doesn't know whom Alviarin is directly working for.  Therefore, when Moggy scoops them up in Amador, Liandrin thinks about the dissention among the Forsaken, but doesn't question her orders because Mesaana didn't force Liandrin to obey ONLY HER like she did with Alviarin.<br /><br />2) Mesaana ordered Liandrin and Co. to Amador to be contacted by Demandred.  This is a little thin because Liandrin was clearly in Amador for weeks before Moggy found them.  Therefore, I'm leaning towards (1).<br /><br />So, with the Mesaana/Moggy switch, this is merely another example of loose minions being scooped up by other Forsaken.  Once again, I would like to reiterate that Moggy was NOT giving Liandrin and Co. orders in Tanchico, she was merely spying on them.<br /><br />Once again, thanks for comments.


created: 2004-11-06 03:49:28
subject: <b>Reply to AgingComputer</b>
body:
<b> True, but Sammael's comments of &quot;proxies to the south&quot; tends to support Demandred's hand in that area, not Moridin's. Sammael clearly recognizes Demandred's style. </b><br /><br />Well, the question is what he means. <br />I believe Sammael rather hints at the chaos Masema &amp; the Dragonsworn create, not at the Seanchan. <br /><br /><b> First off, I would like to argue that throughout the books, Niall seems a little off-kilter. His grand plan to unite the nations never seems to be going anywhere, and his delusions of grandeur seem to parallel Elaida's, who we know was influenced to some extent by Galina/Alviarin. This may not be an indication of Compulsion, but Niall's actions clearly coincide with the Shadow's. Up until Niall poked his nose back into Tarabon, there was no real need TO Compulse him.. </b><br /><br />Niall thinks about his plan in TDR, prologue. It doesn't seem too unrealistic. It was bad luck that the Seanchan arrived.<br />We also see that Fain is around him then, which certainly corrupted Niall, as it corrupted Elaida, and lead to this abnormal ambition. <br /><br /><b> Another thing that could be argued is that Niall is far too public a figure to Compulse directly. Rahvin turns Morgase into a puddle of snivelling goo. If Demandred was exercising such direct control over Niall, it would be hard for him to pull the strings. The Children are a tightly-knit society, and any change in Niall's already precarious condition would result in him getting fired by the Council of the Anointed. And since Demandred is spreading himself thin amongst many different proxies, he is unable to take the full-time job of Lord Captain-Commander. </b><br /><br />Hmm, I still don't see why it is problematic to Compel Niall or Valda, but not Asunawa who also stands in public.<br /><br /><b> So Demandred has Carridin to fulfil the Shadow's goals with the Children, who works with Niall very closely throughout TDR-LOC. However, once Carridin falls out of favor with Niall and is shipped off to Ebou Dar, Demandred needs somebody new to influence. This is when he starts directly Compulsing Asunawa, who, as a co-conspirator with Valda to kill Niall, now has a high level of influence over the new Lord Captain-Commander (i.e. blackmail). </b><br /><br />Actually Valda blackmails Asunawa as seen in ACoS, prologue.<br />And as I said, if I were Demandred, I had Compelled Valda.<br /><br />I'm also not such certain that Demandred controlled Carridin. <br />After all Ishy was still alive in TDR and we see him plotting again already in the beginning of TDR, even if he was injured in TGH.<br />Therefore it seems likely that indeed Ishy sent the Myrddraal to Carridin in TDR, prologue.


created: 2004-11-06 06:51:23
subject: <b>Good theory, interesting discussion</b>
body:
The point of the WC's is a bit weak, true. But it's only understandable given the purely circumstantial evidence. I think you could very well be right about this, but essentially, we'll just have to RAFO to be sure. When we see Demmy, we'll know.<br /><br />Well done<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-06 16:01:46
subject: <b>Replies to Etzel</b>
body:
<b>I believe Sammael rather hints at the chaos Masema &amp; the Dragonsworn create, not at the Seanchan. </b><br /><br />I'm leaning towards the theory that Demandred has something to do with the Dragonsworn.  It's his M.O. to create a rabid army that ostensibly supports Rand but is really detrimental to his cause.  However, I still think that Sammael's comments point to a bigger picture:  &quot;Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them.  He had always liked using proxies.&quot;  When you think about it, Masema's Dragonsworn are a fairly localized phenomenon.  The rest of the &quot;Dragonsworn&quot; across Altara and Murandy are the work of Niall and Carridin.  I think that Sammael's comments point to a broader scope of influence for Demandred.  For Demmy to be with <i>just</i> Masema is too limiting for him.  Remember, the greatest generals of Randland, like Bashere and Bryne, try to think two or three steps ahead of their opponents, and Demmy was unparalleled by any in the AoL except for LTT.  His plans are going to be more all-encompassing that just the Dragonsworn, and this is what led me to the theory that EVERYTHING in the South-west has been caused by Demandred.<br /><br /><b>Niall thinks about his plan in TDR, prologue. It doesn't seem too unrealistic. It was bad luck that the Seanchan arrived.</b><br /><br />Niall's plan is realistic, but, three books later, he hasn't really accomplished anything.  Of course, this is largely due to Carridin's blunders, which is the Shadow's way of keeping Niall in check.  He was playing right into their hands.<br /><br />As for the Seanchan's capture of Amador, this isn't mere bad luck!  This shift of the Children leaving and the Seanchan knowing exactly when and where to strike is one of the BIGGEST indicators, IMHO, that a Forsaken is masterminding events in this area.  Especially when you take into account the fact that when the Children finally did confront the Seanchan, they came away from it practically unscathed.<br /><br /><b>Hmm, I still don't see why it is problematic to Compel Niall or Valda, but not Asunawa who also stands in public.</b><br /><br />Well, the Lord Captain-Commander seems, in my mind, to be a much more public figure that the High Inquisitor.  In LOC, Niall is in and out of the Fortress, travelling to Ailron's palace outside the city and having constant audiences with high-raking Children (Saren) as well as Morgase.  Asunawa, however, seems to be more of a low-profile leader, prone to skulking in windows.  Morgase says she only met Asunawa once, and she nearly wet herself.  Besides, the Hand of the Light seems to be more of a covert society within the Children, and yet it has much influence.  Niall hates the Questioners so much because he fears them and their influence among the Council of the Anointed and the rank and file Child.  I think it's much more logical for Asunawa being Compelled rather than the in-the-spotlight Lord Captain-Commander.<br /><br /><b>Actually Valda blackmails Asunawa as seen in ACoS, prologue.  And as I said, if I were Demandred, I had Compelled Valda.</b><br /><br />Valda blackmails Asunawa?  Go and read that chapter again.  What you're referring to is Asunawa's threat to not support Valda's ascension to LC-C later that day.  Valda says that the Council of the Anointed will support him with or without Asunawa's blessing because he brought half his legion into the Fortress.  Valda's no dummy, but he's more compliant that Niall was.  Niall describes Valda as &quot;always angry,&quot; which, IMO, leaves him much more susceptible to subtle manipulation.  Besides, if Asunawa and Valda set up Omerna to kill Niall, as seems likely, Asunawa has something on Valda.<br /><br /><b>I'm also not such certain that Demandred controlled Carridin. After all Ishy was still alive in TDR and we see him plotting again already in the beginning of TDR, even if he was injured in TGH. Therefore it seems likely that indeed Ishy sent the Myrddraal to Carridin in TDR, prologue. </b><br /><br />Remember, TDR-Prolouge is some months before Chapter 1, because it takes time for Niall's orders to get to Amloth Plain, yet we see them being enacted from Leya's news to Moiraine.  So Ishy is out of commission still at this point.  Yes, the Fade was probably sent by Ishy as a messenger instead of visiting Carridin in dreams like he does in TDR.  But the fact that Carridin's orders coincide with Ishy's doesn't mean that Demandred is not ordering Carridin as well.  If Demmy, Semi, and Mesaana are the Forsaken one tier below Ishy, as seems likely, then it makes sense that the DO's orders to Demandred coincide with Ishamael's.  Remember, in TFOH, Lanfear describes Demandred as considering himself &quot;all but the Great Lord's heir.&quot;<br /><br />Anyways, thanks for your comments.


created: 2004-11-07 04:50:21
subject: <b>Reply again</b>
body:
<b> I'm leaning towards the theory that Demandred has something to do with the Dragonsworn. It's his M.O. to create a rabid army that ostensibly supports Rand but is really detrimental to his cause. However, I still think that Sammael's comments point to a bigger picture: &quot;Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. He had always liked using proxies.&quot; When you think about it, Masema's Dragonsworn are a fairly localized phenomenon. The rest of the &quot;Dragonsworn&quot; across Altara and Murandy are the work of Niall and Carridin. I think that Sammael's comments point to a broader scope of influence for Demandred. For Demmy to be with just Masema is too limiting for him. Remember, the greatest generals of Randland, like Bashere and Bryne, try to think two or three steps ahead of their opponents, and Demmy was unparalleled by any in the AoL except for LTT. His plans are going to be more all-encompassing that just the Dragonsworn, and this is what led me to the theory that EVERYTHING in the South-west has been caused by Demandred. </b><br /><br />Well, it seem possible. <br /><br />I'm not convinced, though, that Demandred really controls the Dragonsworn, the WC and the Seanchan at the same time.<br />Most other Forsaken (especially &quot;Commanders&quot; like Be'lal, Sammael, etc.) are busy with concentrating on one area.<br /><br />But I'm interested to what plot you think Demandred refers to with his final words in LoC: <br />&quot;Have I not done well, Great Lord?&quot;<br /><br /><b> Niall's plan is realistic, but, three books later, he hasn't really accomplished anything. Of course, this is largely due to Carridin's blunders, which is the Shadow's way of keeping Niall in check. He was playing right into their hands. </b><br /><br />So, but that means Niall's original plan had to be spoiled by the Shadow.<br /><br />If Niall was actually working against the Shadow (and he rather wanted to create order, while the Shadow needs chaos), it seems more logical to me to control Niall directly and thus keep him in check, than using Carridin and later just a Compelled Asunawa. <br /><br />But probably we have to admit that we see things different here.<br /><br /><b> As for the Seanchan's capture of Amador, this isn't mere bad luck! This shift of the Children leaving and the Seanchan knowing exactly when and where to strike is one of the BIGGEST indicators, IMHO, that a Forsaken is masterminding events in this area. Especially when you take into account the fact that when the Children finally did confront the Seanchan, they came away from it practically unscathed. </b><br /><br />I meant the Seanchan on Toman Head who destroyed Bornhald's legion.<br /><br />And that the Children left Amador before the Seanchan arrived was Valda's plan, not Asunawa's, because Valda wanted to take Andor and had to destroy the Dragonsworn first, so that they won't conquer Amadicia (ACoS, prologue).<br /><br />Obviously Valda isn't under any Forsaken influence.<br /><br /><b> Well, the Lord Captain-Commander seems, in my mind, to be a much more public figure that the High Inquisitor. In LOC, Niall is in and out of the Fortress, travelling to Ailron's palace outside the city and having constant audiences with high-raking Children (Saren) as well as Morgase. Asunawa, however, seems to be more of a low-profile leader, prone to skulking in windows. Morgase says she only met Asunawa once, and she nearly wet herself. Besides, the Hand of the Light seems to be more of a covert society within the Children, and yet it has much influence. Niall hates the Questioners so much because he fears them and their influence among the Council of the Anointed and the rank and file Child. I think it's much more logical for Asunawa being Compelled rather than the in-the-spotlight Lord Captain-Commander. </b><br /><br />It could be. <br />Though as you pointed out in another reply, Rahvin also Compelled Morgase.<br /><br /><b> Valda blackmails Asunawa? Go and read that chapter again. What you're referring to is Asunawa's threat to not support Valda's ascension to LC-C later that day. Valda says that the Council of the Anointed will support him with or without Asunawa's blessing because he brought half his legion into the Fortress. Valda's no dummy, but he's more compliant that Niall was. Niall describes Valda as &quot;always angry,&quot; which, IMO, leaves him much more susceptible to subtle manipulation. Besides, if Asunawa and Valda set up Omerna to kill Niall, as seems likely, Asunawa has something on Valda. </b><br /><br />Yes, in ACoS, prologue, Asunawa tries to blackmail Valda. <br /><br />But Valda easily counters his attempt with:<br />&quot;The question is not whether I will be Lord Captain Commander when the sun sets today, but who will guide the Hand of the Light in its digging for truth.&quot;<br /><br />Then Asunawa yields and accepts Valda.<br /><br />And that Valda is still in charge is seen in CoT, prologue, though Asunawa tries to test Valda's claim to leadership.<br />Therefore Valda even considers to kill Asunawa soon.<br /><br /><b> Remember, TDR-Prolouge is some months before Chapter 1, because it takes time for Niall's orders to get to Amloth Plain, yet we see them being enacted from Leya's news to Moiraine. So Ishy is out of commission still at this point. Yes, the Fade was probably sent by Ishy as a messenger instead of visiting Carridin in dreams like he does in TDR. But the fact that Carridin's orders coincide with Ishy's doesn't mean that Demandred is not ordering Carridin as well. If Demmy, Semi, and Mesaana are the Forsaken one tier below Ishy, as seems likely, then it makes sense that the DO's orders to Demandred coincide with Ishamael's. Remember, in TFOH, Lanfear describes Demandred as considering himself &quot;all but the Great Lord's heir.&quot; </b><br /><br />It's possible, but as I pointed out above I'm sceptical for several reasons.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, we also never see anything in Carridin's PoV which hints at Demandred.<br /><br /><b> Anyways, thanks for your comments. </b><br /><br />It's an interesting discussion!


created: 2004-11-07 14:52:25
subject: <b>If wishes were horses...</b>
body:
As it's been pointed out above, my theory is certainly not foolproof.  The vast amount of circumstantial evidence I've pulled together to create this really has very little solid fact to it.  I wish that RJ would give us more hints for Demandred's whereabouts -- the total lack of Forsaken in CoT really burned me up when I read it.  You mentioned your belief that Demandred is with the Dragonsworn.  I would love to hear your thoughts on this.  I want to believe it too, but it just seems like there's even less evidence than for Demandred and the Children.  That being said, on to responses.<br /><br /><b>I'm not convinced, though, that Demandred really controls the Dragonsworn, the WC and the Seanchan at the same time.  Most other Forsaken (especially &quot;Commanders&quot; like Be'lal, Sammael, etc.) are busy with concentrating on one area.</b><br /><br />Well, one thing I'd like to point out is the proxies comment (yes, again).  While Sammael, Rahvin, and Be'lal are very obviously in the spotlight, Demandred is nowhere to be found.  I think that if he is limiting himself to a single group of people, he would be much more in the light (even if he was merely a Jalwin Moerad-like advisor).  Sammael's proxy comment leads me to the belief that Demandred's spreading himself thin over a large area.<br /><br /><b>But I'm interested to what plot you think Demandred refers to with his final words in LoC: &quot;Have I not done well, Great Lord?&quot;,</b><br /><br />Well, this comment presents a bit of a problem.  I think you will agree with me when I say that LOC revolves around a single major conflict/plot thread with others, much less important, going on backstage.  The most obvious is the Rand/TAS/SAS conflict culminating in the (IMO) best scene in the books, Dumai's Wells.  The others are Egwene as Amyrlin, the start of the Ebou Dar conflict, the Seanchan invasion of Tarabon, and Sammy and Graendal's plots.  So what was Demandred referring to?<br /><br />Well, there are only a couple of possibilities.  Enough Forsaken had a hand in Ebou Dar that it's unlikely that Demandred did, too.  Sammy and Graendal can be ruled out.  Halima is in charge of the Egwene as Amyrlin thread.  So that leaves Dumai's Wells and the Seanchan in Tarabon.  While one could argue that the Seanchan are what Demandred is so pleased over, this thread has been simmering since TSR, and doesn't really come into its own until ACoS, with the Seanchan invasions of Ebou Dar and Amador.  So while the Seanchan invasion is a good thing for the Shadow, it doesn't coincide with Demandred's talk of spreading chaos for the Great Lord.  <br /><br />So that leaves Dumai's Wells as the strongest contender.  In fact, this jives well with the fact that in the Prologue, Mesaana reveals her plan to capture Rand right after Demandred announces the &quot;LtLoCR&quot; agenda of the DO.  I think the &quot;gamble&quot; Mesaana describes at the very end of the chapter is the events leading up to Dumai's Wells.  It's a stretch, but I think it's plausible to put the attack on Demira in Caemlyn at the feet of either Mesaana or Demandred (as it's one of the major catalysts for later action).  We know that Demandred has SOMEthing to do with the BT, since he's supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand and has ties to the renegade Asha'man.  Since the BT and the TAS were pretty much the beginning and end of the conflict, I think it's safe to say that Demandred was referring to Dumai's Wells when talking to the DO.  But it's not set in stone -- feel free to poke holes in this.<br /><br />I know this spreads Demandred pretty thin.  But he is described as a master general, and by the comments of Niall's agent in Tarabon, the Seanchan are already pretty set in Tarabon by LOC.  That means the invasion really happened in FOH (or at least that it's likely).  When you think about it, the Seanchan, Whitecloaks, and even the Dragonsworn really didn't do anything in LOC.  That leaves Demandred free to set up the events leading to Dumai's Wells.<br /><br /><b>So, but that means Niall's original plan had to be spoiled by the Shadow.</b><br /><br />Well, Niall's plan was pretty good, but if Carridin had established a tenuous &quot;Nation of Amloth,&quot; as it were, by using Bornhald's legion, the ever-expanding Seanchan would have immediately crushed it.  So in a sense, if Ishy's plan had gone right, Niall's plan would have been spoiled by the Shadow.<br /><br /><b>If Niall was actually working against the Shadow (and he rather wanted to create order, while the Shadow needs chaos), it seems more logical to me to control Niall directly and thus keep him in check, than using Carridin and later just a Compelled Asunawa. But probably we have to admit that we see things different here.</b><br /><br />Yeah, I think we do, but I'll try one last time.  I'm putting forward that Demandred is spreading himself thin over many different proxies.  He doesn't have time to sit and yank on Niall all day long.  Besides, at this point, Niall IS creating chaos through his &quot;Dragonsworn.&quot;  If the plan all along was to bump of Niall once he got things going, then the bandits would remain and chaos would continue.<br /><br /><b>I meant the Seanchan on Toman Head who destroyed Bornhald's legion.</b><br /><br />Oh.  Gotcha.<br /><br /><b>And that the Children left Amador before the Seanchan arrived was Valda's plan, not Asunawa's, because Valda wanted to take Andor and had to destroy the Dragonsworn first, so that they won't conquer Amadicia (ACoS, prologue).  Obviously Valda isn't under any Forsaken influence.</b><br /><br />Well, we don't know really whose plan it was.  It could have been Valda's, but it was Asunawa who hit Morgase with the screws-and-thumbtacks after Niall's death.  However, Valda obviously shows some interest in the matter.  I agree that Valda say Andor as the next step for the Children, because he didn't know any of Niall's far reaching plans.  However, I think the fact that <i>Asunawa</i> went with the army is very telling.  Why would the High Inquisitor go with the army at all?  It seems like he would take the opportunity to retake the reigns of power by staying in Amador.  Instead, he chooses to keep Valda under his eye.<br /><br /><b>Though as you pointed out in another reply, Rahvin also Compelled Morgase.</b><br /><br />Yes, but esentially Rahvin took over the government from Morgase, and everyone knew it.  Demandred doesn't have the time to be exercising that kind of direct control over anyone.<br /><br /><b>But Valda easily counters his attempt with:<br />&quot;The question is not whether I will be Lord Captain Commander when the sun sets today, but who will guide the Hand of the Light in its digging for truth.&quot;  Then Asunawa yields and accepts Valda.  And that Valda is still in charge is seen in CoT, prologue, though Asunawa tries to test Valda's claim to leadership.  Therefore Valda even considers to kill Asunawa soon.</b><br /><br />You're right, and this is probably the weakest link with my theory.  I can try to explain this, however.  Remember that Demandred is not really Asunawa, he's just controlling him.  If periodic Compulsion is all Asunawa is getting, it makes sense that Valda still has control.  Tenuous, yes, but plausible.  I don't think it's at all plausible, though, for Demandred to be directly controlling the Lord Captain-Commander.  Compulsion is a tricky tool, as Moggy comments on in ACoS, and any obvious change in Valda or Niall would result in a new LC-C.  However, Asunawa is already considered a madman by nearly everyone.<br /><br /><b>If I remember correctly, we also never see anything in Carridin's PoV which hints at Demandred.</b><br /><br />Yep, you're right.  No direct evidence.  I just think it fits well and is certainly a possibility.<br /><br /><b>It's an interesting discussion! </b><br /><br />It sure is.  In closing, I would just like to say, sorry for the long-windedness (I looked over my previous posts, and boy, do I take a while in getting to the point).  Also, just because a theory has holes doesn't mean it's not the case.  All the evidence pointed at Taimandred, and look how wrong we all were there!  The reason why Dashivan'gar was so tenuous right up to WH was because there were several glaring holes in the theory.  So, once again, everyone, don't hate because there are flaws.  I still think this is the likeliest explanation of Demandred's whereabouts.  Hope to continue the discussion with you, Etzel!


created: 2004-11-07 21:22:53
subject: <b>thank you</b>
body:
what a great theory. i'm very impressed by your deductions.i really like how you help me (and others) realize what it is we have read. i would'nt say you're stating the obvious, rather reminding us of all the info we have stored in our head....this was one of the best theories i have ever rread here in the wot. KUDO'S!!!!<br />


created: 2004-11-07 21:23:42
subject: <b>thank you</b>
body:
what a great theory. i'm very impressed by your deductions.i really like how you help me (and others) realize what it is we have read. i would'nt say you're stating the obvious, rather reminding us of all the info we have stored in our head....this was one of the best theories i have ever read here in the wot. KUDO'S!!!!<br />


created: 2004-11-08 05:08:50
subject: <b>To AgingComputer</b>
body:
<b> As it's been pointed out above, my theory is certainly not foolproof. The vast amount of circumstantial evidence I've pulled together to create this really has very little solid fact to it. I wish that RJ would give us more hints for Demandred's whereabouts -- the total lack of Forsaken in CoT really burned me up when I read it. You mentioned your belief that Demandred is with the Dragonsworn. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I want to believe it too, but it just seems like there's even less evidence than for Demandred and the Children. That being said, on to responses. </b><br /><br />That's right, it's quite difficult to determine Demandred's agenda.<br />I believe that he controls Masema &amp; the Dragonsworn (and rather not Seanchan or WC) for several reasons:<br /><br />Normally Forsaken are concentrated to control one group (i.e. one country or organisation).<br /><br />It's unusual that two Forsaken influence the same group. This rather speaks against the idea that Semirhage and Demandred are involved with the Seanchan.<br /><br />Plus, the non-aggression pact between Mesaana (Whie Tower), Semirhage (Seanchan) and Demandred (consequently Whitecloaks or Dragonsworn) indicates that all have different power bases.<br /><br />I already pointed out why I doubt that Demandred controls the WC.<br /><br />For the Dragonsworn speak the following arguments:<br /><br />The Dragonsworn create lots of chaos in Randland; this strongly indicates Forsaken involvement.<br /><br />Also Masema's dramatic character change and his madness could be a sign of Compulsion.<br /><br />Plus, we see in TGH, ch.37, after the Portal Stone Travel, where all see their different lives, that &quot;Masema wept openly, tears streaming down his face&quot;.<br />Maybe the reason is that he saw that he will be used by the Shadow in several of his possible lives.<br /><br />It fits with Sammael's comment since the Dragonsworn are south of Graendal's palace.<br /><br />I could imagine that Demandred would like it to denunciate Rand by using the Dragonsworn.<br /><br />We see in WH and CoT that Masema and Suroth (a DF and probably under Semirhage's thumb by now) are working together.<br />This fits with the pact between Semirhage &amp; Demandred as well.<br /><br />Therefore I believe Demandred most likely controls Masema.<br /><br /><b> Well, one thing I'd like to point out is the proxies comment (yes, again). While Sammael, Rahvin, and Be'lal are very obviously in the spotlight, Demandred is nowhere to be found. I think that if he is limiting himself to a single group of people, he would be much more in the light (even if he was merely a Jalwin Moerad-like advisor). Sammael's proxy comment leads me to the belief that Demandred's spreading himself thin over a large area. </b><br /><br />I interpret this differently and believe that it points just to one group, but that Demandred normally stays in the background.<br /><br /><b> Well, this comment presents a bit of a problem. I think you will agree with me when I say that LOC revolves around a single major conflict/plot thread with others, much less important, going on backstage. The most obvious is the Rand/TAS/SAS conflict culminating in the (IMO) best scene in the books, Dumai's Wells. The others are Egwene as Amyrlin, the start of the Ebou Dar conflict, the Seanchan invasion of Tarabon, and Sammy and Graendal's plots. So what was Demandred referring to?<br /><br />Well, there are only a couple of possibilities. Enough Forsaken had a hand in Ebou Dar that it's unlikely that Demandred did, too. Sammy and Graendal can be ruled out. Halima is in charge of the Egwene as Amyrlin thread. So that leaves Dumai's Wells and the Seanchan in Tarabon. While one could argue that the Seanchan are what Demandred is so pleased over, this thread has been simmering since TSR, and doesn't really come into its own until ACoS, with the Seanchan invasions of Ebou Dar and Amador. So while the Seanchan invasion is a good thing for the Shadow, it doesn't coincide with Demandred's talk of spreading chaos for the Great Lord. <br /><br />So that leaves Dumai's Wells as the strongest contender. In fact, this jives well with the fact that in the Prologue, Mesaana reveals her plan to capture Rand right after Demandred announces the &quot;LtLoCR&quot; agenda of the DO. I think the &quot;gamble&quot; Mesaana describes at the very end of the chapter is the events leading up to Dumai's Wells. It's a stretch, but I think it's plausible to put the attack on Demira in Caemlyn at the feet of either Mesaana or Demandred (as it's one of the major catalysts for later action). We know that Demandred has SOMEthing to do with the BT, since he's supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand and has ties to the renegade Asha'man. Since the BT and the TAS were pretty much the beginning and end of the conflict, I think it's safe to say that Demandred was referring to Dumai's Wells when talking to the DO. But it's not set in stone -- feel free to poke holes in this.<br /><br />I know this spreads Demandred pretty thin. But he is described as a master general, and by the comments of Niall's agent in Tarabon, the Seanchan are already pretty set in Tarabon by LOC. That means the invasion really happened in FOH (or at least that it's likely). When you think about it, the Seanchan, Whitecloaks, and even the Dragonsworn really didn't do anything in LOC. That leaves Demandred free to set up the events leading to Dumai's Wells. </b><br /><br />Actually I tend to believe that Demandred refers to the whole &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;-plan, rather than just his private plot. <br />As seen in LoC, prologue, Demandred was the one who the DO used to order the other Forsaken to create chaos and thus initiate all events (since apparently Ishy wasn't around yet, it seems Demandred was his replacement).<br />So, Demandred certainly also refers to the climax in LoC, namely Dumai's Wells.<br /><br />The Dragonsworn are still creating chaos in LoC. But you are right, they don't do anything special (the same applies for the Seanchan and the WC in LoC).<br /><br /><b> Well, Niall's plan was pretty good, but if Carridin had established a tenuous &quot;Nation of Amloth,&quot; as it were, by using Bornhald's legion, the ever-expanding Seanchan would have immediately crushed it. So in a sense, if Ishy's plan had gone right, Niall's plan would have been spoiled by the Shadow. </b><br /><br />That is probably correct. <br /><br /><b> Yeah, I think we do, but I'll try one last time. I'm putting forward that Demandred is spreading himself thin over many different proxies. He doesn't have time to sit and yank on Niall all day long. Besides, at this point, Niall IS creating chaos through his &quot;Dragonsworn.&quot; If the plan all along was to bump of Niall once he got things going, then the bandits would remain and chaos would continue. </b><br /><br />Well, it is possible, though as pointed out above, I have my doubts and rather believe that also Demandred is mainly concentrated on one group, namely Masema's Dragonsworn.<br /><br /><b> Well, we don't know really whose plan it was. It could have been Valda's, but it was Asunawa who hit Morgase with the screws-and-thumbtacks after Niall's death. However, Valda obviously shows some interest in the matter. I agree that Valda say Andor as the next step for the Children, because he didn't know any of Niall's far reaching plans. However, I think the fact that Asunawa went with the army is very telling. Why would the High Inquisitor go with the army at all? It seems like he would take the opportunity to retake the reigns of power by staying in Amador. Instead, he chooses to keep Valda under his eye. </b><br /><br />Valda considers in CoT, prologue:<br />&quot;His plans for Andor were lost.&quot;<br />So, the invasion of Andor was clearly mainly his plan.<br /><br />I believe Asunawa wanted to keep Valda under his eye because he didn't trust him and thus also left Amador whith some Questioners.<br />Normally the WC had quickly crushed the Dragonsworn and then probably returned to Aamador to plan the invasion of Andor.<br />But then the Seanchan attacked and this spoiled their plan.<br /><br /><b> Yes, but esentially Rahvin took over the government from Morgase, and everyone knew it. Demandred doesn't have the time to be exercising that kind of direct control over anyone. </b><br /><br />Could be, although I think he directly controls Masema.<br /><br /><b> You're right, and this is probably the weakest link with my theory. I can try to explain this, however. Remember that Demandred is not really Asunawa, he's just controlling him. If periodic Compulsion is all Asunawa is getting, it makes sense that Valda still has control. Tenuous, yes, but plausible. I don't think it's at all plausible, though, for Demandred to be directly controlling the Lord Captain-Commander. Compulsion is a tricky tool, as Moggy comments on in ACoS, and any obvious change in Valda or Niall would result in a new LC-C. However, Asunawa is already considered a madman by nearly everyone. </b><br /><br />But if Valda has the control, Demandred doesn't control the WC through his proxy Asunawa. <br />That Demandred would accept this seems very doubtful to me.<br /><br /><b> It sure is. In closing, I would just like to say, sorry for the long-windedness (I looked over my previous posts, and boy, do I take a while in getting to the point). Also, just because a theory has holes doesn't mean it's not the case. All the evidence pointed at Taimandred, and look how wrong we all were there! The reason why Dashivan'gar was so tenuous right up to WH was because there were several glaring holes in the theory. So, once again, everyone, don't hate because there are flaws. I still think this is the likeliest explanation of Demandred's whereabouts. Hope to continue the discussion with you, Etzel! </b><br /><br />It's possible that Demandred controls Asunawa or is involved with the WC.<br />But if that is the case, I rather believe it's a quite new plot.<br /><br />But of course, as I said in my first comment, your theory is a good one. <br />I just have some fundamental doubts since I interpret several (quite ambiguous) things differently.<br />


created: 2004-11-08 17:35:15
subject: <b>And the heat goes on</b>
body:
Yup, sounds like we just see a few things differently.  I just wanted to comment on a couple points:<br /><br /><b>That's right, it's quite difficult to determine Demandred's agenda.  I believe that he controls Masema &amp; the Dragonsworn (and rather not Seanchan or WC) for several reasons: Normally Forsaken are concentrated to control one group (i.e. one country or organisation). It's unusual that two Forsaken influence the same group. This rather speaks against the idea that Semirhage and Demandred are involved with the Seanchan.</b><br /><br />I have just a couple of issues with this.  To start off, Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana were the only Forsaken we had not seen on-screen before LOC.  Semirhage's absense is explained by the fact that she is molding Tuon and surrounded by <i>damane</i>.  Mesaana has been revealed to have her hand in a myriad of plots some (most) failures, but some powerful advantages for the Shadow.  However, Demandred's part in Randland is conspicuously absent.  Of course, this is just RJ jerking our chain, but still, Demandred had to be up to SOMEthing.  Masema and the Dragonsworn, while fitting the correct timeline for the Forsaken's escape from the Bore, is FAR too limited for Demandred to have been focusing on just that.  The Dragonsworn were limited to only Ghealdan until FOH, and I find it unlikely that Demandred is limited to just controlling Masema.  <br /><br />You brought up examples of Rahvin and Sammael as &quot;commanders&quot; who are limited to one place.  However, their M.O. is completely  different from Demandred's.  Rahvin himself thinks of Sammael as taking things &quot;one slow step at a time,&quot; and Moridin comments that Sammael thinks &quot;only in straight lines.&quot;  Rahvin himself accuses Be'lal of overstretching himself, taking unnecessary risks in TDR.  It is clear that both of these men, while capable, excellent battle commanders, are very cautious, not wanting to commit troops, or worse yet themselves, unless it gains them something (Rand thinks much the same after the attack by Sammael's DF's in FOH).<br /><br />At the far end of the spectrum, Mesaana describes Demandred as a &quot;gambler.&quot;  I think Demandred can fairly be linked with Bashere, Niall, and Bryne as a general who thinks outside of the box to achieve their goals.  Except Demandred has the resources of the Shadow at his fingertips.  For Demandred to be limited to the Dragonsworn, or indeed any one single group in Randland, doesn't fit with his character.  He is all over the place.<br /><br /><b>Plus, the non-aggression pact between Mesaana (Whie Tower), Semirhage (Seanchan) and Demandred (consequently Whitecloaks or Dragonsworn) indicates that all have different power bases.</b><br /><br />Well, this is harder to explain, but it is do-able.  In fact, we have seen instances of Forsaken encroaching on each other's turf.  Alviarin notes that Lanfear, Be'lal, and Graendal have all come into the WT, which is clearly Mesaana's territory.  Graendal especially, who has shown no particular aptitude for Dreaming, is the least likely to enter another Forsaken's zone.  Yet, here she is.  Another example is the Black Tower.  Demandred obviously has SOME sort of ties to the BT.  Yet, Osan'gar was placed here, presumably to watch Taim.  Moridin, too, has contact with the renegade Asha'man in WH.  So there is a precedent.<br /><br />In addition, I see the <i>Haliene</i> and the <i>Corenne</i> as two seperate entities.  Semirhage is clearly limited in what channeling she can do.  She is even unable to attend Forsaken meetings, and Demandred, the master tactician, thinks that this is a perfectly legitimate excuse in WH.  It's unlikely that Semirhage had much to do with Suroth's attacks on Tarabon, Amadicia, and Ebou Dar (unless you seriously think she was desperate enough to rely on the communication methods of the current Age that the Forsaken are so scornful of).  It's certainly plausible that Demandred was commanding the <i>Haliene</i> and turned Suroth over to Semirhage when she arrived in Ebou Dar.<br /><br /><b>For the Dragonsworn speak the following arguments:<br />The Dragonsworn create lots of chaos in Randland; this strongly indicates Forsaken involvement.  Also Masema's dramatic character change and his madness could be a sign of Compulsion.  It fits with Sammael's comment since the Dragonsworn are south of Graendal's palace.  I could imagine that Demandred would like it to denunciate Rand by using the Dragonsworn.  We see in WH and CoT that Masema and Suroth (a DF and probably under Semirhage's thumb by now) are working together. This fits with the pact between Semirhage &amp; Demandred as well.  Therefore I believe Demandred most likely controls Masema.</b><br /><br />I agree with all of these points, but, as I said above, I think it's very unlikely that Demandred is limiting himself to JUST the Dragonsworn.  From what we know of him, that would seem a terrible breach of character.<br /><br /><b>I interpret this differently and believe that it points just to one group, but that Demandred normally stays in the background.</b><br /><br />And, of course, Demandred has stayed in the background. He's observed the failure of all the other &quot;commanders,&quot; who had their public positions.  His flexibility and secrecy will serve him well when Rand finally faces him.   The shifts in the South-west that I pointed out in the original theory seem very like something that Demandred would do.<br /><br /><b>Actually I tend to believe that Demandred refers to the whole &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;-plan, rather than just his private plot.  </b><br /><br />I guess I don't understand your meaning here.<br /><br /><b>As seen in LoC, prologue, Demandred was the one who the DO used to order the other Forsaken to create chaos and thus initiate all events (since apparently Ishy wasn't around yet, it seems Demandred was his replacement).  So, Demandred certainly also refers to the climax in LoC, namely Dumai's Wells.</b><br /><br />Yep, he's definitely the &quot;Second Officer&quot; of the Shadow.<br /><br /><b>I believe Asunawa wanted to keep Valda under his eye because he didn't trust him and thus also left Amador whith some Questioners.  Normally the WC had quickly crushed the Dragonsworn and then probably returned to Aamador to plan the invasion of Andor.  But then the Seanchan attacked and this spoiled their plan.</b><br /><br />Does it say anywhere that the Whitecloaks actually engaged the Dragonsworn in battle?  I got the impression that they and the Amadician nobles turned around to face the Seanchan.  But I could be mistaken, I don't have any of the later books with me.<br /><br /><b>Could be, although I think he directly controls Masema.</b><br /><br />Once again, Masema is a little different that Niall or Valda.  Masema's followers are convinced that Masema is the &quot;Light made flesh&quot; or whatever.  They will follow him absoultely, even though (and maybe because of) his madness.  The Lord Captain-Commander, however, is surrounded on all sides by enemies, waiting to pull him down.  If Demandred was Compelling Valda and not Asunawa, Asunawa would have pounced on any sign of weakness (such as the irrational behavior Asunawa displays in COT).<br /><br /><b>But if Valda has the control, Demandred doesn't control the WC through his proxy Asunawa.  That Demandred would accept this seems very doubtful to me.</b><br /><br />Unless Valda's goals coincide with Demandreds, like Niall's did before he learned of the Seanchan.  Asunawa would probably only represent someone who could nudge Valda in the right direction when it was needed, and I don't really consider Asunawa's pitiful attempt at resistance in ACoS to be a challenge to Valda's authority.  In COT, Demandred has been distracted by other events -- finding Rand -- and has not been exerting direct control over Asunawa recently.  This could explain Asunawa's sudden rabid urge to challenge Valda.  If Asunawa knows anything of Demandred's plans, it only makes sense that he wants Valda to take the Children east, out of Demandred's sphere of influence.<br /><br /><b>It's possible that Demandred controls Asunawa or is involved with the WC.  But if that is the case, I rather believe it's a quite new plot.</b><br /><br />But if it's a new plot, what has Demandred been doing?  As I've said (several times), I refuse to believe that he's just with the Dragonsworn.<br /><br /><b>But of course, as I said in my first comment, your theory is a good one.  I just have some fundamental doubts since I interpret several (quite ambiguous) things differently.</b><br /><br />And that's good, right?  Otherwise we wouldn't be having this interesting discussion.


created: 2004-11-09 05:25:33
subject: <b>To AgingComputer</b>
body:
<b> I have just a couple of issues with this. To start off, Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana were the only Forsaken we had not seen on-screen before LOC. Semirhage's absense is explained by the fact that she is molding Tuon and surrounded by damane. Mesaana has been revealed to have her hand in a myriad of plots some (most) failures, but some powerful advantages for the Shadow. However, Demandred's part in Randland is conspicuously absent. Of course, this is just RJ jerking our chain, but still, Demandred had to be up to SOMEthing. Masema and the Dragonsworn, while fitting the correct timeline for the Forsaken's escape from the Bore, is FAR too limited for Demandred to have been focusing on just that. The Dragonsworn were limited to only Ghealdan until FOH, and I find it unlikely that Demandred is limited to just controlling Masema. </b><br /><br />It's possible that Demandred also had a few other fields of activity, but I think he was indeed mainly concentrated on Masmea.<br /><br /><b> You brought up examples of Rahvin and Sammael as &quot;commanders&quot; who are limited to one place. However, their M.O. is completely different from Demandred's. Rahvin himself thinks of Sammael as taking things &quot;one slow step at a time,&quot; and Moridin comments that Sammael thinks &quot;only in straight lines.&quot; Rahvin himself accuses Be'lal of overstretching himself, taking unnecessary risks in TDR. It is clear that both of these men, while capable, excellent battle commanders, are very cautious, not wanting to commit troops, or worse yet themselves, unless it gains them something (Rand thinks much the same after the attack by Sammael's DF's in FOH). <br /><br />At the far end of the spectrum, Mesaana describes Demandred as a &quot;gambler.&quot; I think Demandred can fairly be linked with Bashere, Niall, and Bryne as a general who thinks outside of the box to achieve their goals. Except Demandred has the resources of the Shadow at his fingertips. For Demandred to be limited to the Dragonsworn, or indeed any one single group in Randland, doesn't fit with his character. He is all over the place. </b><br /><br />Well, not just Rahvin (Andor) or Sammael (Illian) are mainly limited to one place, also Be'lal (Tear), Mesaana (WT), Semirhage (Seanchan), Graendal (Arad Doman), Asmodean (Aiel), later Aran'gar (Rebels AS), Osan'gar (BT/Rand),  and you could say Lanfear was concentrated on Rand, wherever he was.<br /><br />Moridin as Nae'blis is probably the big exception (though he seems especially concentrated on Andor now).<br /><br />Of course occasionally the Forsaken spy on each other, or work together in some plots.<br />But normally each Forsaken has one land/organisation they control on their own.<br /><br />I believe in Demandred's case the most hints point to Masema's Dragonsworn. <br />It makes the most sense to me that he started his own power base there.<br />Later in LoC, Demandred apparently also coordinated the other Forsaken for the DO. <br /><br />But I don't see much evidence that Demandred controlled the WC then.<br /><br /><b> Well, this is harder to explain, but it is do-able. In fact, we have seen instances of Forsaken encroaching on each other's turf. Alviarin notes that Lanfear, Be'lal, and Graendal have all come into the WT, which is clearly Mesaana's territory. Graendal especially, who has shown no particular aptitude for Dreaming, is the least likely to enter another Forsaken's zone. Yet, here she is. Another example is the Black Tower. Demandred obviously has SOME sort of ties to the BT. Yet, Osan'gar was placed here, presumably to watch Taim. Moridin, too, has contact with the renegade Asha'man in WH. So there is a precedent. </b><br /><br />As said, the Forsaken want to be informed what the others do and have spies in several places, but nevertheless they have one own power base.<br /><br /><b> In addition, I see the Haliene and the Corenne as two seperate entities. Semirhage is clearly limited in what channeling she can do. She is even unable to attend Forsaken meetings, and Demandred, the master tactician, thinks that this is a perfectly legitimate excuse in WH. It's unlikely that Semirhage had much to do with Suroth's attacks on Tarabon, Amadicia, and Ebou Dar (unless you seriously think she was desperate enough to rely on the communication methods of the current Age that the Forsaken are so scornful of). It's certainly plausible that Demandred was commanding the Haliene and turned Suroth over to Semirhage when she arrived in Ebou Dar. </b><br /><br />The Hailene was first seen in TGH and Suroth was Ishy's agent at this time.<br />There are also other hints in the books that show that actually Ishy initiated the whole Seanchan Return many years ago.<br />Therefore I don't see that Demandred (who was maybe still imprisoned then) had something to do with it then.<br /><br />IIRC the next big attack of the Seanchan is in ACoS (before this Suroth plans and sends spies to the Westlands).<br />Moridin was already back then.<br />Also nothing in Suroth's PoV or in her behaviour indicates that Demandred controls her.<br /><br /><b> I agree with all of these points, but, as I said above, I think it's very unlikely that Demandred is limiting himself to JUST the Dragonsworn. From what we know of him, that would seem a terrible breach of character. </b><br /><br />I believe Demandred is mainly concentrated on the Dragonsworn, but also has spies in other areas.<br /><br /><b> And, of course, Demandred has stayed in the background. He's observed the failure of all the other &quot;commanders,&quot; who had their public positions. His flexibility and secrecy will serve him well when Rand finally faces him. The shifts in the South-west that I pointed out in the original theory seem very like something that Demandred would do. </b><br /><br />Well, I believe the Seanchan invasion was initiated by the Shadow, but by Ishy and later by his agent Suroth.<br /><br />Meanwhile, Demandred spreads chaos through Masema and the other Forsaken. <br /><br /><b> I guess I don't understand your meaning here. </b><br /><br />In LoC, prolgue the DO tells Demandred his plan. <br />Later Demandred tells the other Forsaken of the plan to increase chaos.<br />Demandred was a kind of coordinator for the DO to initiate his plan at this time.<br /><br />After the chaos at Dumai's Wells, Demandred reports the DO that he commanded the Forsaken as the DO wanted (LoC, epilogue).<br />Therefore I don't think that Demandred refers to one single plot in this scene, e.g. his control of the Dragonsworn or maybe the Seanchan, but to the DO's main plan which started quite good.<br /><br /><b> Yep, he's definitely the &quot;Second Officer&quot; of the Shadow. </b><br /><br />Yes, this is also supported by RJ's newest Q&amp;A at tor.com.<br /><br /><b> Does it say anywhere that the Whitecloaks actually engaged the Dragonsworn in battle? I got the impression that they and the Amadician nobles turned around to face the Seanchan. But I could be mistaken, I don't have any of the later books with me. </b><br /><br />Yes, I think the WC planned to attack Masema, but then the Seanchan attacked, and thus the plan was spoiled.<br /><br /><b> Once again, Masema is a little different that Niall or Valda. Masema's followers are convinced that Masema is the &quot;Light made flesh&quot; or whatever. They will follow him absoultely, even though (and maybe because of) his madness. The Lord Captain-Commander, however, is surrounded on all sides by enemies, waiting to pull him down. If Demandred was Compelling Valda and not Asunawa, Asunawa would have pounced on any sign of weakness (such as the irrational behavior Asunawa displays in COT). </b><br /><br />Though, Demandred should also have no difficulties to kill Asunawa, if you believe that Demandred was even responsible for Niall's death...<br /><br /><b> Unless Valda's goals coincide with Demandreds, like Niall's did before he learned of the Seanchan. Asunawa would probably only represent someone who could nudge Valda in the right direction when it was needed, and I don't really consider Asunawa's pitiful attempt at resistance in ACoS to be a challenge to Valda's authority. In COT, Demandred has been distracted by other events -- finding Rand -- and has not been exerting direct control over Asunawa recently. This could explain Asunawa's sudden rabid urge to challenge Valda. If Asunawa knows anything of Demandred's plans, it only makes sense that he wants Valda to take the Children east, out of Demandred's sphere of influence. </b><br /><br />It is possible.<br /><br />But one should also consider that since Perrin should bring Masema to Rand, Graendal's comment that Demandred hoped to blunder into Rand, hoped someone would find Rand for him (WH, ch.13) would at least make sense if he is mainly close to the Dragonsworn.<br /><br /><b> But if it's a new plot, what has Demandred been doing? As I've said (several times), I refuse to believe that he's just with the Dragonsworn. </b><br /><br />Well, I said several times that I believe Masema was Demandred's main task then... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> And that's good, right? Otherwise we wouldn't be having this interesting discussion. </b><br /><br />Yub, that's good. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-09 16:15:09
subject: <b>Semi=anath?</b>
body:
Whaaa? im sorry but your evidence of Anath being Semirhage is a bit weak. There really is not any real hard evidence that she is and so far I have not read anything that convinced me of her identity<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watch out! Its the kid who cant speel <br />|<br />And remember kids always drink till you cant think!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-09 22:04:33
subject: <b>Heh, L33T made me chuckle</b>
body:
Heh.  First off, L33T, where have you been?  Go to the &quot;Semirhage&quot; topic on this theory post and you will find a plethora of theories that should serve to convince you that Semirhage = Anath.  It's pretty much common knowledge, I'm not going to try to convince you of it.<br /><br /><b>It's possible that Demandred also had a few other fields of activity, but I think he was indeed mainly concentrated on Masmea.</b><br /><br />Well, Etzel, it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to convince you that the Dragonsworn alone are too limited for Demandred.  Since we've pretty much beat this one into the ground over and over again, I'm gonna leave it alone.<br /><br /><b>Well, not just Rahvin (Andor) or Sammael (Illian) are mainly limited to one place, also Be'lal (Tear), Mesaana (WT), Semirhage (Seanchan), Graendal (Arad Doman), Asmodean (Aiel), later Aran'gar (Rebels AS), Osan'gar (BT/Rand), and you could say Lanfear was concentrated on Rand, wherever he was.</b><br /><br />Yeah, you're right, I just think that it would fit with Demandred's character for him to be all over the place. Seems to me that if he were based in just one area, we'd have seen him by now.  But this is gonna have to be a RAFO.<br /><br /><b>Moridin as Nae'blis is probably the big exception (though he seems especially concentrated on Andor now).</b><br /><br />Well, I dunno... I think he's leaving the Caemlyn situation pretty much to Shiane.  It would be interesting to know what Moridin does all day, though.<br /><br /><b>The Hailene was first seen in TGH and Suroth was Ishy's agent at this time.  There are also other hints in the books that show that actually Ishy initiated the whole Seanchan Return many years ago.  Therefore I don't see that Demandred (who was maybe still imprisoned then) had something to do with it then.</b><br /><br />No, just that he picked things up where Ishy left them.  Remember, Semi is stuck over on the main continent.  I just think it's suspicious that the Seanchan seem to know exactly when to strike, and where.  That's all.<br /><br /><b>I believe Demandred is mainly concentrated on the Dragonsworn, but also has spies in other areas.</b><br /><br />As I said, I think we'd have seen him if he was concentrated somewhere.  He's rather like Lanfear in that respect -- we never did find out where that &quot;big white room&quot; was that she always gated to and from.<br /><br /><b>But one should also consider that since Perrin should bring Masema to Rand, Graendal's comment that Demandred hoped to blunder into Rand, hoped someone would find Rand for him (WH, ch.13) would at least make sense if he is mainly close to the Dragonsworn.</b><br /><br />This is a strong pro-Dragonsworn point.  But then why didn't Masema insist on going straight to Rand instead of chasing after Faile?<br /><br />Wow, this discussion has been going on for 6 days now.  You've helped me see how the Dragonsworn also fit into Demandred's plan.  Although it's plain we don't agree, I hope that I've helped you see things in a different way.


created: 2004-11-10 21:47:50
subject: <b>More info on Demandred</b>
body:
Graendal: &#8220;Only she knew that the Great Lord had all but promised to name her Nae'blis, a promise sure to be fulfilled with al'Thor out of the way. She would be the most obedient of the Great Lord's servants. She would sow chaos till the harvest made Demandred's lungs explode.&#8221;<br /><br />IMO, this quote tells us that Graendal's chaos will conflict with Demandred's plans.  In TPOD and WH, we see Graendal ordering Rodel Ituralde to attack the Seanchan.  If Demandred is in command of the Haliene during LOC, as I think, this could be more evidence that points in this direction...<br /><br />Of course, it could also be nothing.


created: 2004-11-11 06:01:29
subject: <b>Once again to AgingComputer</b>
body:
<b> Well, Etzel, it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to convince you that the Dragonsworn alone are too limited for Demandred. Since we've pretty much beat this one into the ground over and over again, I'm gonna leave it alone. </b><br /><br />Ok.<br /><br /><b> Yeah, you're right, I just think that it would fit with Demandred's character for him to be all over the place. Seems to me that if he were based in just one area, we'd have seen him by now. But this is gonna have to be a RAFO. </b><br /><br />Yub.<br /><br /><b> Well, I dunno... I think he's leaving the Caemlyn situation pretty much to Shiane. It would be interesting to know what Moridin does all day, though. </b><br /><br />It's said, though, that Moridin visits Shiaine sometimes. <br />Therefore I think he is personally concentrated on Andor at the moment since there is no other Forsaken.<br /><br />But of course in the end all threads run together in Moridin. <br />He delegates the Forsaken (especially the last chance Forsaken), he has spies everywhere and also spies on others himself.<br /><br />I think it's also possible that he e.g. contacted Suroth again, after all Moridin is seen in Ebou Dar, and helped Slayer to bring the Darkhound pack into the south to hunt Fain.<br /><br /><b> No, just that he picked things up where Ishy left them. Remember, Semi is stuck over on the main continent. I just think it's suspicious that the Seanchan seem to know exactly when to strike, and where. That's all.<br /><br />Of course we know that the Shadow has spies everywhere.<br />That doesn't mean the spy has to be a Forsaken.<br /><br />And that the Seanchan attack the countries in the west of Randland first is logical.<br /><br />&lt;b&gt; As I said, I think we'd have seen him if he was concentrated somewhere. He's rather like Lanfear in that respect -- we never did find out where that &quot;big white room&quot; was that she always gated to and from. </b><br /><br />Well, in my view we see at least the effects of Demandred's plots, namely the chaos the Dragonsworn spread.<br /><br />For some reason RJ wants to keep it secret where Demandred is exactly (and if RJ didn't change his mind about Taimandred later, it seems even Taim's behaviour was just a red-herring to veil Demandred's whereabouts).<br /><br /><b> This is a strong pro-Dragonsworn point. But then why didn't Masema insist on going straight to Rand instead of chasing after Faile? </b><br /><br />Well, Masema has no real choice since Perrin is in charge of the Asha'man.<br /><br />But it's quite telling that first (TPoD, ch.30) Masema didn't want to use a Gateway to meet Rand quickly, but later (WH, ch.6) has no problems with the idea to Travel anymore.<br />Maybe Demandred changed his mind to find the vanished Rand this way?<br /><br /><b> Wow, this discussion has been going on for 6 days now. You've helped me see how the Dragonsworn also fit into Demandred's plan. Although it's plain we don't agree, I hope that I've helped you see things in a different way. </b><br /><br />It's indeed a good discussion and you present some good points.<br />But I simply think the case for Demandred being focussed on the Dragonsworn is stronger.<br /><br /><b> IMO, this quote tells us that Graendal's chaos will conflict with Demandred's plans. In TPOD and WH, we see Graendal ordering Rodel Ituralde to attack the Seanchan. If Demandred is in command of the Haliene during LOC, as I think, this could be more evidence that points in this direction... </b><br /><br />I rather think this quote tells that whatever Graendal does in Arad Doman, it will support Demandred's plottings.<br /> <br />We see in CoT that also in Arad Doman Dragonsworn spread chaos and fought the King; this was supported by Graendal's actions.<br />It's likely that these Dragonsworn are also connected to Demandred.


created: 2004-11-18 19:26:23
subject: <b>Just say no to Theories of Mass Compulsion!</b>
body:
This is an interesting, and well discussed theory.  BUT, I'm just not comfortable with the idea that everyone under the sun is being Compulsed by a Forsaken.  Yes, Morgase, a highly public figure, was victimized by Rahvin, but this was something he was known for.  I don't recall reading that Compulsion is Demandred's favorite ploy.  Proxies, yes, but not Compulsion.  Which is NOT to say he's never used it, but that it's not his style.<br /><br />Anyway, I digress.  Niall never struck me as a Compulsion victim.  Over-reaching for sure, but then, I acknowledges comments from above that he was around Ordeith.  But Valda and Asunawa?  Why?  Because they act in evil ways?  Mordeth's very existence is proof that the world isn't divided into nice people and darkfriends.  Valda and Asunawa are evil of a different sort.  From what I can see, Asunawa is very much modelled after a bloodthirsty, corrupt Inquisitor (of our history), who to an extent thinks he's serving a holy cause, but to a greater extent is a sadistic monster.  Why join the DFs when you can already satisfy your bloodlust as a &quot;good guy&quot;?<br />Valda, on the other hand, is a power-hungry sort of evil.  Again, why join the DFs when you can be all powerful as a &quot;good guy&quot;.  Just think - no extra oaths required.<br /><br />I don't view all WC's as evil like this.  Galad isn't evil, he's searching for _something_.  And let's face it - most Aes Sedai we've met so far have proven themselves to be retched human beings who would sacrifice many lives to maintain their own power.  Not surprising that a MALE organization would arise that viewed them all as DFs. Not all Seanchan are DFs either.  I would be willing to entertain the notion that Ishy shaped the WC's code of morality over time, though I agree he didn't found them.<br /><br />But the main point I want to make is, assuming that lots of important characters are being Compulsed zaps the story of any interest, like reading about automatons.  I'd rather read about people who by their own volition make mistakes, rather than assume that no one is responsible (unless they are a Forsaken) for anything bad that they do.<br /><br />Just say no to Theories of Mass Compulsion!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-19 01:35:06
subject: <b>Mass Compulsion?</b>
body:
Comet Sedai, I'd be interested in what YOU think Demandred is doing.  How do you interpret the &quot;proxies&quot; comment?  If you think he is all over the place, manipulating many different people, this leads to two conclusions:  one, that he is using a lot of Compulsion, or two, that he is using a lot of high-ranked Darkfriends.  If you think he's in a single place, he either got there by two methods:  one, a lot of Compulsion (Rahvin, Semirhage), or two, using high-placed Darkfriends (Be'lal, Sammael).  Either way, you come to the same conclusion.<br /><br />If you go over the comments on the BB, Comet, you'll see that we DON'T think that Niall or Valda, either one, were under Compulsion (I think that's one of the few things Etzel and I agree on).  I put forth that Asunawa is under Compulsion, at the very least from book 6 and onwards, because he exibits some of the signs of Compulsion (latching on to familiar objects, like the book at the beginning of COT).<br /><br />You simply can't explain where any of the Forsaken are except through one of two ways:  Compulsion, or high-ranking Darkfriends.  That doesn't limit the story in any way.  Look at the people who have been Compulsed.  They all try to break free of the trap (Morgase).  As you your comments on Asunawa's character, he too is trying to break free.  That says something about him, don't you think? <br /><br />In conclusion, there are only limited options on where Demandred is and how he is getting his work done.  That being said, you didn't offer any alternatives.


created: 2009-06-04 03:06:06
subject: <b>bull</b>
body:
You simply can't explain where any of the Forsaken are except through one of two ways: Compulsion, or high-ranking Darkfriends. That doesn't limit the story in any way. Look at the people who have been Compulsed. They all try to break free of the trap (Morgase). As you your comments on Asunawa's character, he too is trying to break free. That says something about him, don't you think? <br /><br />This is sloppy thinking there are all kind off ways to influence peoples thinking:<br />1. Threats to causes or people or country's<br />2. Misdirection<br />3. Promises glory gold other rewards.<br />4. etc<br /><br />You don't have to control if you can direct actions.<br />Most people like to believe they fight for the right cause its more effective then using DF or compulsion.


created: 2004-11-10 05:26:18
subject: <b>A good job...</b>
body:
And I'm sure Fyatuk will agree with you. <br />He wrote a similar theory on the WoT MB some time ago called &quot;Taimdunnit&quot;, and is indeed one of the few fervent Taimdunnit believers I know. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I agree that Asmo certainly wasn't killed with balefire and that Taim is a Darkfriend trained by a Forsaken, most likely Ishy.<br /><br />However, I disagree that Taim is the killer (and btw, Slayer's patron) for the reasons I expressed in Fyatuk's post.<br /><br />One reason is that I believe Taim is in no way an obvious candidate at the time of Asmo's death, only with clues from books before LoC.<br /><br />He wasn't introduced as a character in the series yet.<br />We only knew about Taim from other people's remarks that he is a False Dragon who can channel and that the Shadow maybe wanted to use him (implying that he is actually not a DF).<br /><br />Since Taim was in Andor it's not surprising that he wears local clothes.<br />Also that he shaved his beard makes sense since Bashere hunted him.<br /><br />You imply that Taim assassinated Asmo. <br />But how could he know that Asmo would enter the room?<br /><br />Also I don't see why Lord Elegar would be so afraid to see Taim if he knew him (and also other people in the palace should know Taim then).<br />It rather shows that he is not very excited to have yet another male channeler around him.<br /><br />To me it makes the most sense that <i> the assassin </i> Slayer killed Asmo (as I pointed out in my theory &quot;Slayer vs. Graendal&quot;, and countless times on the WoT MB or Theory Post...).


created: 2004-11-10 11:29:55
subject: <b>50 / 50 split</b>
body:
Thank you for your theory.  I think it is unique and something I have not read before so I applauded you on thinking out of the box.<br /><br />I agree with you accusation of Taim being a darkfriend.  I really enjoyed your linking Taim to Ish and the statement in NS about a make channeler in the borderlands.  When I read NS, I digested that statement as Ish was the male channeler, but it could very well be Taim.  However, I think you need more evidence on Taim&#8217;s age to support your idea.  One member of the kin can give you the idea but it will take additional similar evidence to be able to say for sure.  Furthermore, the only record we have of the slowing process is feminine.  RJ indicated there is a difference in the slowing process between men and women when he penned that women begin to slow in their early 20s and men slow in their late 20s.  For all that we know, the rate of slowing could also be different.<br /><br />Regarding Taim killing Asmodean, I did not find any substantial evidence in your post to support this theory.  Yes, there are similarities between Asemodean&#8217;s death and the grey man&#8217;s death, but that does not mean that Taim is the killer.  A + B does not have to equal C.  If you are going to further this theory you need to find more compelling evidence.  I did vote to support you theory but I think there are gaping holes that need to be filled.  I am excited to see if other members of WOT mania can fill in the blanks.<br />


created: 2004-11-10 12:23:36
subject: <b>Case for Asmodean recognizing Taim</b>
body:
It has often been speculated that before going into the waste with Lanfear, Asmodean was in Saldaea.  The evidence for this is thin (Kadere was Saldaean, and Asmo seems fairly aware of Graendal's activities in nearby Arad Doman), but all &quot;Who Killed Asmo&quot; theories are of necessity based on thin evidence.  Given that, and given the assumption that Taim is an established DF, it makes sense that Asmo would recognize him.<br /><br />I particularly like the suggestion that Asmo was Taim's teacher.  Something I've never heard before, and it should open some new trains of thought.<br /><br />Given that Asmo's death comes right on the heels of Bashere's assertion to Rand that Taim is in Andor... I suppose Taim is as obvious a candidate as any.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 17:29:23
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Overall, some very good points.  However, there are a just a couple of things I would like to point out.  First, the murder of Asmodean is very ambiguous in that there are two opposing methods of finding his killer:<br /><br /><b>Obviosity:</b>  Going by what RJ said, that we should know who Asmo's killer was the INSTANT he died, there is only one really logical conclusion:  Lanfear.  Colombo does a very good job in elucidating this aspect of Asmo's murder in his theories &quot;The Homocide&quot; and &quot;The Homocide Reloaded.&quot;<br /><b>Analytical Reasoning:</b> That is, going through a list of suspects, using motive, means, and opportunity, and eliminating non-viable ones.  Using this method, most people have come up with only one really viable suspect: Graendal.  And judging by the number of Graendal-dunnit theories on this site, most people would agree with me (although Etzel wouldn't).<br /><br />Unfortunately, these two methods are completely contradictory when placed in the context of the opposite suspect.  Graendal is in no way obvious to the casual observer, she is merely the best fit from the clues RJ has left us in subsequent books.  But Lanfear fails almost all of the tests in the Analytical Reasoning method!  So which is the right method?  On the other hand, RJ has said that very few of the letters he gets has the right answer...so I guess that eliminates both Lanfear and Graendal!<br /><br />My problem with this theory is that you disregard the &quot;obviosity&quot; comment in favor of the analytical reasoning method.  You've come up with some very good points, but I'm still inclined to think that Graendal is a better overall fit.<br /><br />On the Asmo as Taim's teacher thing, I'd just like to put a final nail in that coffin:  Asmo states himself that he's not a very good teacher.  Lanfear reveals that he would still be hiding in his &quot;hole&quot; if she hadn't dug him out of it.  That speaks against ANY contact with Taim/Ishy, IMO.  Lanfear only picked Asmo as Rand's teacher because there was noone else.  Remember, the only other male Forsaken around at the time were Demandred, Sammael, and Rahvin, and Lanfear herself gives VERY good reasons why they would never teach Rand in TSR...<br /><br />The similar &quot;blurring&quot; between Slayer's Mystery Employer and Asmo's disguise is no clue.  Any of the male Forsaken could know that disguise.  By this logic, you could state that it was Asmo Reborn under the disguse!


created: 2004-11-10 17:54:43
subject: <b>Drat, beaten to the mark</b>
body:
Well I agree with you on this one, and was working on a similar theory myself. One of my main points though has not been mentioned here and it is to do with Taim shaving.<br /><br />As you mentioned he knows the trick with the heat, so his reason given to Bashere is a lie. You also mention that he is recognised by some of the nobles that were toadying to Rhavin. If you take this a little further, damn,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 18:47:04
subject: <b>to continue</b>
body:
Sorry, got booted off.<br /><br />Now where was I?<br /><br />Right, When Rand goes after Rhavin, he travels into the throne room where Rhavin is sitting <b> with some other men</b> (don't have the exact quote). Later, when Taim appears before Rand, his sole concentration is on Rand. He pays no mind to the Saldeans sticking swords into him, nor to the Aiel, only Rand. The reason for this in my opinion is that he knows if Rand recognises him from the Throne room, then he is in serious trouble.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 19:15:22
subject: <b>Yeah, but...</b>
body:
Shooganooga. What the hey? So what if Taim was in the throne room? That says nothing about whether Taim did it or not.<br /><br />AgingComputer has it right IMO.<br /><br />This theory was well written but I believe Xoduz is grasping at straws. Everybody is trying to come up with someone to blame for Asmodean's  demise. Shoot, why not just blame everything in Rand. The women around him do all the time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I have not made up my mind who killed him and am in the process of reading tFoH to find out.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> &quot;the old gimp&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 20:57:28
subject: <b>to shoondooga</b>
body:
<b>As you mentioned he knows the trick with the heat, so his reason given to Bashere is a lie.</b><br /><br />This argument is pretty weak, IMO.  It never made sense in the Taimandred arguments, and it doesn't make sense now.  Bashere has obviously seen Taim in person, if not close enough or often enough to be able to pick him out in a crowd.  Sense <i>Bashere</i> can't recognize Taim if he shaved, doesn't it seem to be a pretty good disguise against anyone looking for him?  Especially with his snazzy new Andoran clothes.  If any of Bashere's men saw him at a distance, they wouldn't know him at all!<br /><br /><b>You also mention that he is recognised by some of the nobles that were toadying to Rhavin.</b><br /><br />Nope, just the DF Lord Elegar.  IMO, this is another weak point because Elegar would be pleased that Taim had returned to give him orders, now that Rahvin is dead.  Why would he vomit?<br /><br /><b>If you take this a little further, When Rand goes after Rhavin, he travels into the throne room where Rhavin is sitting with some other men (don't have the exact quote). Later, when Taim appears before Rand, his sole concentration is on Rand. He pays no mind to the Saldeans sticking swords into him, nor to the Aiel, only Rand. The reason for this in my opinion is that he knows if Rand recognises him from the Throne room, then he is in serious trouble.</b><br /><br />Hoo boy, this is another big stretch.  Rand and Rahvin obviously had some sort of confrontation in the throne room, how else would Rahvin been able to escape in the corridors?  Doesn't it make sense that Taim would have helped his master fight off Rand?  Rand would have been crushed by two FS-strength channelers.<br /><br />As for Taim's reaction, he obviously knows that the other people in the room are of no consequence.  DF or not, he's done some nasty things in the past, and I'm sure he could kill everyone in the throne room very quickly (he would wrap Tumad, the soldier with the sword on him, in Air, kill him, erect a shield like the one he does in LOC when Rand visits the BT, and call lightning or something to kill the rest.  Easy.)  The only wild card that Taim doesn't know enough about to predict is Rand.  Taim doesn't even know how much strength in the OP Rand has, or whether Taim could beat Rand if it came to blows.  It's only natural that Taim would focus solely on Rand.


