# w_comment

created: 2002-10-02 14:26:05
subject: <b>Einor Saren was not mentioned anywhere in glimmers.</b>
body:
Einor Saren was not mentioned anywhere in glimmers.  I believe that if Einor Saren was involved that RJ would have the grace to have him in the scene someplace.  There is always the possibility he will be mentioned later in the book, though, I guess.<br /><br />The reason I know that Einor wasn't mention is because I specifically looked for him.  Einor Saren (and possibly Balwer) seem to me to be the only possible White Cloak Demandred candidates so it seemed to be a worthwhile exercise to keep track of where he is.  <br /><br />Personally, I think that the stench that Eamon Valda smells is related to him either becoming a sniffer or a wolf-brother, if it means anything at all.  That is in my mind a big if.  That would be extremely ironic.  <br /><br />I can't imagine it having anything to do with chanelling.  If he has the spark it already should have manifested itself.  If he doesn't have the spark he needs to train the ability first before he is able to notice dark spawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 17:58:18
subject: <b>Stinking Catch</b>
body:
You certainly have a great eye (and memory) for catching such subtle suspicious things! I now agree with the idea that the stench was of the Blight, momentarily brought in by a Traveling gateway hidden somewhere.<br />Was Eamon Valda standing near a tent when he smelled the stench? A Forsaken would need some place to hide an opening and closing gateway.<br />I think it's too soon to point the finger at Saren.<br />If the Traveling Forsaken was indeed Demandred, this is another point against the Taimandred theory and reinforces Sammael's comments about Demandred's activities &quot;south of here&quot; (Graendal's palace in Arad Doman).<br />Does anyone remember the Fade that came to Jaichim Carridin in TDR: Fortress of the Light (Prologue), and smiled and laughed at Carridin? Since myrddraal do not have any sense of humor and this is looooong before Shaidar Haran appeared (and Carridin did NOT remark on the smiling Fade being bigger than normal myrddraal, and he would know from seeing myrddraal at the darkfriend social), this may be Demandred disguising himself as a Fade (he prefers to use proxies for his own schemes, rather than reveal himself to anyone). I wonder, is Demandred also 'lurking' amidst the Prophet's followers and Perrin's armies?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 18:50:01
subject: <b>A good explanation</b>
body:
This makes sense to me, as it explains the two odd things about this PoV in a way that does not require any great leap of faith, like Padan Fain managing to be in the Whitecloak camp and Far Madding at the same time, or some random Forsaken just happening to check up on the Whitecloaks for no particular reason. It also does not require Asunawa to be a Darkfriend or Forsaken, both of which conclusions are totally erroneous. <br />I think that it isn't necessary for RJ to put Saren in the scene as well; wouldn't that be almost too obvious? Certainly by his standards, if you look at the Asmodean case. Saren also fits the criteria for Demandred reasonably well, and the thing we have to remember is that for every other Forsaken (apart from maybe Mesaana) it was not that hard to work out who it was. The clues were there, like for Selene/Lanfear, Dashivan'gar, and Semirath (not that the last is proven totally, but it's pretty watertight.) It follows that the clues must be there for Demandred as well, as RJ has said that we should be able to work out who he is. If he is Saren, then this would just be more confirmation, and the Asunawa/book thing a nice touch. <br />It is going to be quite hard for anyone in that plotline to work out that Saren is Demandred, if he is, too, so it could get interesting...it could help that Morgase knows the symptoms of Compulsion and Perrin knows that Rahvin was Compelling her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 20:21:24
subject: <b>I Like It</b>
body:
The stench suddenly being there then not, almost assuredly points to a gateway being opened to the blight. Some of you might have missed it, but in tGH, when Rand was practicing with Lan on the tower, after the wind that &quot;pushed&quot; him, and Lan had left, Rand described much the same thing.&quot;The wind swirled up fiercely, chilling his sweat like droplets of ice, making the trumpets sound like sly laughter; he <br />thought he could smell an opened grave, strong in the air.&quot;<br />tGH, The Flame of Tar Valon, last para. of chapter. I think someone was keeping an eye on Rand, and gated back to the blight.<br /><br />I also like the analogy you made between Morgase and Asunawa, both seeking out something comforting and familiar, it does sound like compulsion is being employed.<br /><br />A little more Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 20:38:23
subject: <b>this is very good</b>
body:
it is the simplest and best, and only serious explanation for events from Valda's PoV.<br /><br />Nothing else matched together, but I think you may have found the key to the puzzle that RJ gave us.<br /><br />I think we need to write all the points in favor of Saren, and then make an FAQ on Demandred with all the possible suspects he could possibly be.<br /><br />Saren definitely tops my list.  One thing I was thinking is that Demandred was spying on Elayne is LoC in dreamworld.  His interest in Elayne (and her connection to Rand) may have been played out by Saren's interest in Morgase in ACoS.  From what we have, we have no evidence that Niall sent Saren to show Morgase those hangings.  That might have been a touch of his own, to get Morgase under his grasp.<br /><br />The next thing is the level of atrocity that the whitecloaks committed in Saren's region in TGH.  Children were murdered along with men and women.  Men in Taraboner coats were attacking Arad Doman, and vice versa.  A great deal of chaos was being sown.  Definitely Demandred criteria.  In Demandred's section in the Guide, it specifically mentions how cruel he was, and how he had had innocent children murdered during the war.<br /><br />However, at this point, we do not know whether the murders were actually ordered by Saren himself.  For all we know, it could have been Carridin who ordered the atrocities.  Therefore, we cannot really completely pin these to him yet.<br />But Saren really fits in that he is a military man.  We know that Demandred held many governor positions during the War of Power, but that he shortly left to be on the battlefield.<br /><br />The Children fit, especially now from Glimmers that we learned that both Asunawa and Valda are looking for some way to capture Aes Sedai.  This is the only way for the whitecloaks to be viable in the future, with the new modern size of armies.  So Demandred as Saren, could clearly have had a hand in urging Asunawa, and possibly Valda as well, to find ways of capturing Aes Sedai.<br /><br />One last other thing that fits the whitecloaks, is their quick departure from the Seanchan battlefield.  Instead of being slaughtered, they found their way off the field completely intact.  Balwer said Valda had the DO's own luck, but what if Demmy had something to do with this escape?<br /><br />If not Saren, I only like one other suspect right now, and that is Elbar of the Seanchan.  I am still playing around with that theory, so I don't know if it will work or not.  But none of the other theories of Demandred really hold water.  Weiramon and Taim are out with WH, because both would have recognized Flinn.  Norry has no real chance, and Tumad is highly unlikely due to his close past with Bashere.  Glimmers also killed the Bashere and Dobraine theories of Demandred.  <br /><br />This leaves us with Saren.  And possibly Elbar-- I will post that theory as soon as I complete the fine details involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 08:24:04
subject: <b>Demandred can't be a whitecloak</b>
body:
Because Demandred and Semirhage had a truce not to attack each other! But the Seanchan destroy most of the WC army. I think that Semirhage must be Anath, so the Seanchan had never attack the WC if Demandred leads them!<br />


created: 2002-10-03 08:56:34
subject: <b>Dem and Sem</b>
body:
Demandred and Semirhage had a truce not to attack each other, not a truce not to attack the army's they are positioning themselves in.  Think about it.  Demandred has the same truce with Mesaana, who is controlling the Aes Sedai.  Do you actually think Mesaana would be angry if some more Aes Sedai were captured by Seanchan or killed by Whitecloaks?  Such a thing would both increase chaos <i>and</i> strengthen the Shadow's hold over what is left of the White Tower.  I imagine the same thing goes for Sem and Dem.  They aren't likely to feel any loyalty to the armies they are controlling; the whole point of controlling them is to betray them as destructively as possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 13:25:56
subject: <b>Good!</b>
body:
Nice to see you did a little research as well.  I also agree that it is easier to be Saren than Asunawa.  More Freedom with the bosses approval.  Also when Demmy seen Elayne in Tel n roid he thinks its someone to tie a string to.  Later in LOC who do we see but Saren in contact with Elaynes mommy Morgase.  I like this string!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 14:06:45
subject: <b>One little thing</b>
body:
Morgase felt uncomfortable and thus sought out Lini because she was going against the Compulsion. She was only able to do this because she was a channeler (albeit very weak).<br /><br />This wouldn't apply to Asunawa. He doesn't have the ability to disobey the Compulsion and he would never have the opportunity. I can see how he would read Mantelar's The way of the light &quot;for comfort&quot; if he was in need of it like Morgase, but he couldn't disobey Demandred's compulsion (assuming you are right) unless he could channel (which opens a whole new venue for theories).<br /><br />I don't think there is a connection.<br /><br />I actually think the book he was reading was a book he shouldn't have (i.e. Blasphemy) since he tried to hide it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 14:23:35
subject: <b>The truce between Demandred and Semirhage supports Demandred being a WC!</b>
body:
The truce between Demandred and Semirhage supports Demandred being a WC!  Well maybe it doesn't go that far.  It is consistent with it.  <br /><br />There is too much evidence that someone is pulling the strings of both the Seanchen and the WC to support each other. <br /><br />1. The whitecloaks have created chaos wherevever the Seanchen are going to attack next.  They are the ones who caused all of the chaos in Tarabon before the Seanchen's first and second attack.  They were also responsible for creating chaos in Altara and Ghealdean before the Seanchen attack there.  (Pedron Niall mentions that they are about to have a plague of dragonsworn.)<br /><br />2. The whitecloaks were responsible for keeping Amidicia and Altara in the dark about the Seanchen (with Pedron Niall's quarentine of Tarabon.)  The Seanchen were able to make a suprise attack that way.  The Seanchen themselves were suprised with how well the Correne went.<br /><br />3. The WC and the Seanchen have somehow avoided fighting each other.  The WC fought the Seanchen only twice.  The first time was by the elder Bornhald who <i>violated</i> orders in order to attack the Seanchen.  (Otherwise I am guessing the WC would have somehow escaped the Seanchen as Valda himself did later.)<br /><br />4. Eamon Valda assasinated Pedron Niall and left with the vast bulk of the WC <i>just</i> before the Seanchen attacked.  This was shortly after Eamon Valda's visit.  Is this just a lucky break for Valda?  It could be, but there is too many other lucky breaks.<br /><br />5.  Eamon Valda and his 8000 troops somehow survived an attack from the Seanchen and escaped.  We know from his PoV that he personally saw the Amidician troops being slaughtered by the Seanchen.  Why would the WCs be spared.  Valda may be a good general (Niall didn't think so) but I doubt he is that good.  <br /><br />6. In Glimmers, at the end, Valda and all the Lord Captains with Asuwana are going to ride to a meeting that is far away.  Valda mentions before this that he would settle for finding out how the Seanchen tame their 'witches'.  (With tame 'witches' he could destroy Rand and become better than Artur Hawkwing.)  Could this be a secret meeting with some of the Seanchen to discuss this possibility?  Is this a trap to lure him and the Captains to their death?  We just don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 17:57:46
subject: <b>Demandred does like proxies...</b>
body:
My main problem with other Demandred theories has been how he could possibly use those around him effectively to accomplish what he wants, but this one seems to do the job nicely.  As Saren, he'd have plenty of opportunity to Compel Asunawa and maybe even the Lord Captain Commander occasionally (not sure on that one..) and the WCs are still a significant force in Randland.  <br /><br />Incidentally, does anyone else feel sort of sad that Niall was killed?  I liked him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 19:25:25
subject: <b>Rabid Wombat....</b>
body:
WELL DONE!!!!!!!<br /><br />I brought Einor Saren up on this sight as a possible for Demmy. I'm sure he has been on others lists as well but I had never seen him before mentioned as a possible for Demmy. So I mentioned him to Matrimony Cauthon a few weeks back and the result has been great.  Anyways GG and I always thought of him as a top contender.  With the help of Matrimony cauthon, GG and others he has become Demmmy in my eyes. 100%. After reading your brilliant comments above re; demmy and seemy I now believe in it 120%.  Thank you for opening my eyes to this and more.<br /><br />Your comments fit so well, that I'm feeling quite stupid for not seeing what was in front of my face.  THANKS AGAIN for shedding some more light on this.<br /><br />How does Messana fit into this as she also works as part of the trio?<br /><br />Brilliant Rabid Wombat!  Hats off to you!  and I don't say that often so please give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 19:28:35
subject: <b>Rabid Wombat</b>
body:
Please post your comments on the message board under &quot; Demandred is Demandred&quot; or something like that.  There is currently 72 comments there and yours would be of value.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 20:33:22
subject: <b>that WAS a very good reply Rabid</b>
body:
One of the best I have ever seen from you.  But as I recall, you were also the originator of the Saren/Demandred theory.  I am already heavily leaning towards it.  But if it turns true, you will get major prop points from me.<br /><br />I have a couple more points to add.<br /><br />Saren would be an especially good job for Demmy because he could slip out whenever he wanted to.  Thus he could do other jobs, and work in other areas.  Perhaps have even more than one identity...<br /><br />I liked the Seanchan connection you mentioned between Semi and Demi.  But I have point to differ there.  I personally believe that Semirhage was involved with the Seanchan in a different capacity.  Most of her time was spent attaching herself directly to the Empress.  This greatly limited her, and her disappearances that she could have.  When she was attached to Tuon, she had to miss many meetings and what not.<br /><br />I do not believe that it is too far of stetch to say that Demandred was manipulating the Seanchan as well.  Semirhage may have needed him to help out, since her own mobility was so limited.  Seanchan is so huge already, and its forces were already split into 2 places.  Therefore, I think it might make sense that 2 Forsaken were involved.  Plus, Semirhage was never noted as an outstanding general.  Demandred is the man at that.<br /><br />Like you said, it almost appears as if the Seanchan and the Whitecloaks have been working together.  And what if they really have been?<br /><br />We have one suspect that we cannot disprove yet as Demandred: Elbar.  <br /><br />And Elbar shares some startling ressemblances to Saren:<br /><br />1.  They both look alike (minus the back that Elbar is dark-skinned), and they both appear in the same places.<br /><br />2. When Saren was seen on Toman Head, Elbar was seen in Falme.  Then we didn't see either character again till ACoS.<br /><br />3.  First, we saw Saren with Asunawa, and his involvement with Morgase.  This led to Morgase becoming bound with the Whitecloaks, and part of her spirit being broken.  Next, we have Elbar who along with Suroth, organized a plan to bring Morgase under their thumb.  Note, that the first thing the Seanchan did when they entered the complex was to get Morgase.  How did they even know she was there?  That information was pretty confidential at the time.<br /><br />As I mentioned earlier, Demandred was seen watching Elayne in dreamworld in LoC.  This may have led to him being so interested in Morgase.  Another string for him to use.  Later, we saw both Saren and Elbar dealing with Morgase.<br /><br />And that is the last we have seen of either character. <br /><br />4. In future PoVs with the whitecloaks, we have not seen Saren.  In future PoVs with Suroth, we have not seen Elbar.<br />None of the stuff I mentioned proves anything, but I am just suggesting the fact that maybe it is Demandred that is playing both sides.  Maybe he was, and is, using both the Seanchan and the Whitecloaks.  Maybe it will be him, who forges the future contact the Whitecloaks need with the Seanchan in order to learn how to damane women channelers.<br /><br />Just a thought.  I have at least two more theories on the subject to come.<br /><br />Happy hunting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 04:25:25
subject: <b>Some more support...</b>
body:
Logically, the plan makes perfect sense.<br /><br />Demandred wants to create chaos.  What better way than to have another army running around with channelers, and what better irony than the Whitecloaks.  However, before this could be accomplished there two things had to happen.  <br /><br />1. Niall.  He was too good of a general and too level headed to ever even think about capturing Aes Sedai. So, Asunawa, under direction from Demandred, forms a plan with Valda to eliminate Niall once he became a problem, and replace him with Valda, who is not even close to being level-headed.  As a matter of fact, he is extremely rash.<br /><br />2.  The other problem that had to be overcome was need.  How are you going to convince the Whitecloaks that they need to capture Aes Sedai?  You route them and almost destroy them with an army that they can't even begin to challenge without channelers.  Then, you manipulate Valda into doing something that Niall would never do.<br /><br />It makes perfect sense, actually, now that I sit back and look at it.  Perhaps Mesaana will be the supply side of that deal, sending some Aes Sedai from her camp to Demandred.  I think that Semmy found out about the forkroot, from that woman that defected (i forgot her name, but she gave the forkroot to Nynaeve and Elayne), and she is going to give it to Demmy to give to the WC's, and that is how they will capture Mesaana's Aes Sedai. It's the only way a WC could capture an Aes Sedai, and that knowledge is conveniently residing with Semmy right now.<br />&quot;It's risky, but it could give us everything.&quot;  <br />I think we are starting to see how.


created: 2002-10-04 06:21:13
subject: <b>Ok, but Masema would also fit...</b>
body:
Ok your arguments are very good. And it would fit with Sammys comment of &quot;Demandred's mark&quot; and his &quot;friends&quot; in the south. <br />But notice that Masema and his fellows made much more chaos in randland than the WC and we know that Masema meet the Seanchan! And this would also fit with Sammys comment.  <br />I think Demandred is with Masema!


created: 2002-10-04 11:47:12
subject: <b>Wow Rabidwombat!</b>
body:
That was great! Good catch, but here is something very interesting and related.<br /><br />If Demmy, Semmy and Messy (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) are in an alliance (and we know they are) why just look at what the two are doing? If that is true (and I feel it is) then look at what happens next! Demmy, as Saren, orchestrated the WC being able to enter Andor. What's right above Andor? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Tar Valon. What do you think will happen when the Seanchan get their hands on a few hundred AS (minus alot of casualties)? They would be unstoppable, and will Semmy to lead Tuon into Demmy's hands (as the General), the Dark would have been unstoppable!<br /><br />Now, since the formation of the Asha'man, this has become less of an advantage, but I am sure that a few hundred more channelers wouldnt hurt.<br /><br />LONG LIVE THE THEORY POST!!!!!<br /><br />PS: You should post this on the MB. It would make the discussion a lot easier!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 12:42:01
subject: <b>Rabidwombat.....</b>
body:
be careful that Matrimony cauthon doesn't try and steal your thunder.  He is known for that.<br /><br /><br />Messana knows of the forkroot since the start of ACOS.  She mentions it to Alvirian.????? <br /><br /><br />Dedric......I like the forkroot idea you brought up! Nice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 15:40:08
subject: <b>Thanks for the support</b>
body:
Thanks for the compliments.  I can feel my head swelling already.  (I almost hope someone else pricks it before I say something incredibly stupid and burst it myself.  It will happen.)<br /><br />I don't think I have to worry about Matrimony Cauthon stealing my thunder.  In any case, he is welcome to it, just as long as he takes the lightning strikes that go with it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .  I can hardly claim to own thunder anyway.  <br /><br />Coming back to the main post.  I think the main posts may support someone using Compulsion on Asuwana.  It is an interesting angle that I haven't thought of.  I don't think that any reasonable Forsaken would be in the Blight much less make a gateway from there, though.  I don't think the slopes of SG where Demandred traveled to in LoC stinks.  Why would Demandred want to foul himself with the blight?  We don't even know if it is possible to Travel to or from the blight.  RJ has stated that it is in someway separate from the rest of our world.  (This may be related to why we haven't seen trollocs pour out of a gateway.  Personally, though I am leaning toward  the Myrdraal not being able to get through a gateway and not having as much control of their shadow walking as we might think.)<br /><br />As far as Sarendred is concerned, I have never been 100% sure that Saren is Demandred.  Sometimes I think he is and sometimes not.  I think his actions and words in tGH is more or less consistent with it.  If he is Demendred, though, he most likely would have been more careful not to mention the Seanchen to Geofram Bornhald.  Maybe more importantly tGH takes pains with the DF get together in the prologue to portray Ishy as being responsible for Tarabon.  Ishy was the one that also wanted Carridin to try to kill Rand and the one who punished him for disobeying them.  If Ishy is responsible with Carridin, then why would Demandred have to be there.  (Then again tDR went through great pains to establishing Lanfear with the WT before later books mentioned that Mesaana was the one who planned the situation in Tear and that Mesaana was in the tower.) <br /><br />Nonetheless, I do believe that someone is manipulating the Seanchen, Whitecloaks, and Masema's dragonsworn to ensure that the Seanchen take over the region as quickly as possible while preserving the WCs for some goal.  (I guess there is always the possibility that the pattern is weaving things the way it wants to ensure the success of the Seanchen.   I prefer to be a conspiracy theorist in this instance though.)  <br /><br />The person who is manipulating the WC must have had direct access to both Pedron Niall and Asuwana and possibly Eamon Valda.  Einor Saren fits that bill in that in LoC (I think) he comes from a meeting with Niall and ends up in a meeting with Asuwana.  There could be hundreds of others though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 17:07:29
subject: <b>Rabid...</b>
body:
The first three books also take great pain to show that Ishamael is running the show, the whole show.  Think about his arguments with Lanfear in the world of dreams, his coordination with Rahvin and Be'lal that Perrin witnesses, and all of the other instances of Ishamael being the top dog.  Remember, it was Ishamael who sent Hawkwing's armies across the sea, so he is responsible for that entire story line.  Yet, they are now controlled by Semirhage.  Therefore, it is not unreasonable, actually it is quite reasonable, that Demandred was given charge of the WC's to do Ishamael's bidding.


created: 2002-10-04 18:00:42
subject: <b>Stench...</b>
body:
Rabid, the stench came from Shayol Ghul itself.  Here is a quote from the prologue of Lord of Chaos.<br /><br />&quot;Demandred let the power go.  Only a fool would appear ready to channel here.  Also, only a fool would want to be able to see, smell, or feel anything to clearly.&quot;<br /><br />It smells really bad on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.


created: 2002-10-05 12:40:58
subject: <b>RE: to a couple of people</b>
body:
Burr - &quot;For an instant Perrin's nose caught another odor, one he could not identify, a faint trail that raised the hair on the back of his neck with its vileness.  Then it was gone.&quot; tDR, Jarra<br />Also we have seen Fades ride on shadows, check tEotW Watchers and Hunters, &quot;The shadows at the end of the hall reached out and embraced it, and it was gone.&quot;<br />If you see this, why was Graendal one you would suspect?  She doesn't seem to have any connection with the WC.<br /><br />Ciel - Morgase did not fight Compulsion because she could channel, check Rahvin's POV in tFoH, The First Sparks Fell, &quot;A few - a very few - had a strength of self so firm that their minds searched, even if unaware for crevices through which to slide away.&quot;<br /><br />RW - a couple of things, 1)The Seanchan were in Tarabon before the WC first arrived, they hear stories about them from the beginnig, unless you're refering to the Questioners and it's not likely they could have done much.  Also, I don't think that the Seanchan would have required any help in these instances.<br />2) Niall didn't believe in the Seanchan threat, I don't think that there is any evidence for him having Compulsion used on him.<br />4) Why wouldn't Valda, the Prophet was pretty much having his way with the Amadacian army.  Unless you think he was Compulsed.<br />5) Valda got away because the Seanchan didn't care, they knew that they'd find the WC and kill them sooner or later.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 16:11:20
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
Naill wasn't in control or aware of the goings on in Tarabon when Saren and Carridon were running the show.  Its pointed out in Geofram Bornhalds point of view.  He also sends Child Biar back with a report to Naill of what the WC's are doing.<br /><br /><br />The Seachan didn't care if the WC's got away???  They always have in the past, why the lack now?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-06 01:42:27
subject: <b>Re: Re to a bunch of people (Jim)</b>
body:
Sure any or all of my points could be happenstance as you mention.  I can't prove to you that it isn't just a coincidence that the WCs played so well into the Seanchen hands.  (I do think that Eamon Valda escaping with the majority of the WCs is extremely suspicious.)  On the other hand there is enough coincidences to make me very suspect there is a darker force at work behind this.  <br /><br />I disagree that the Seanchen would have progressed as far as they have without WC help.  Without the WCs to quarentine the Seanchen word would have spread to Rand and the WT much faster.  They would have had a lot more difficulty dealing with the people as well.  The Seanchen provided order to Tarabon and allowed them to quickly augment their armies with Tarabon soldiers since the Tarabons were likely to support anyone who brought order at that time.  Just as important the Seanchen know don't need to use as many soldiers to hold Tarabon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 13:06:31
subject: <b>about the Seanchan</b>
body:
Exactly what would the WT have done even if they had believed the Seanchan to be a threat.  Even before the split they weren't exactly a military power, only political.  While Rand would likely have done something we've seen how little his attack in PoD set the Seanchan back, by WH they had already moved into the mountains again while Rand was waiting the Asha'man to find him.  I doubt the Seanchan worry too much about hosding Tarabon with Tarabon soldiers, at least it wouldn't surprise me if there are still the occasional Seanchan ship that drops troops off in Falme or Tanchico or elsewhere along the coast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 22:20:55
subject: <b>Sarendred is worse then Taimandred and Elbardred??.... come on guys</b>
body:
Saren appears in the Great Hunt.  This is a problem as the only loose forsaken at the time were Ishy and Lanfear.  The rest were freed in the winter between TGH and TDR.  <br />The use of WC to cause chaos in Tarabon/Toman Head was Ishy's plot to allow the Seanchan to land.  Carridin was part of this plot.  After Ishy's &quot;death&quot;  Sammael took over Carridin.  I also beleive that he started manipulating the WCs.  <br />My reason's for this assumption:<br />One:  Sammaels comment about events to the south.  There is one thing that nobody seems to have picked up on yet.  The three factions involved south of Arad Doman at the time are the WC, the Seanchan and Masema's dragon sworn.  From Sammael's comment we know that Demandred was involved with one of them (but probably not located with them) AND that Sammael was involved with one of them as well, for none of these factions threatened Illian at that time.  I beleive that at this point in time the WC were being manipulated by Sammael.  Sammael later comments that when the great lord returns, HE will give him NATIONS to follow him, even if they don't know who they are following.  These comments are suprisingly simialar to Pedron Nialls agenda at the time.  Also, land was ceded to Illian, and Pedron Nialls hands were all over it.  Mattin Steppaneos was very interested in some plan that Pedron Niall hatched up.  The hints are there, there was def some kind of collusion between Illian and the WC's.  <br />So, where was I going with this??  Oh, yah.  Saren appeared in tGH, before Demandred was free, so he is out.  Does this mean that Demmy has no hand in the WCs??  Of course not.  I beleive that the assination of Niall and the coup was a Demmy takeover.  After all Sammael was worried that Demmy had plans that threatened them and the Forsaken are known for fighting amongst themselves.  I beleive that Demmy IS controlling Asunawa, and DID visit him to cause that stench but connecting him to Saren is ridiculous.  Demandred is not Saren, I would be willing to put money on it.  <br />As for him being Elbar,  give me a break.  Elbar was wounded by a woman with a knife!!<br /><br />If you guys really want to know, Demmy is a borderlander, most likely a Saldaen.  Their millitancy would appeal to him.  The raids into the borderlands have stopped, and Demmy comments on this many times, almost as if he is gloating.  At the time he is also wearing a &quot;?Saldaen?&quot; fur lined coat.  Fighting in the borderlands was reported many times, often right before or after information connected to other Forsaken in other places.  As a writer, I recognize all these comments as foreshadowing for a later plot line.  Demmy's involvement up to now has been small, for he is a character for a later plot line.  And now we have a borderlander army in Randland.  Which happens to be hoping to stumble into Rand.  Coincidence??<br /><br />This is how I see it.  Demandred escapes from the bore and begins consolidating his power in the borderlands.  He uses his proxies to further other plans.  Masema, helps cause chaos in the west which is what the DO wants to allow the Seanchan to land.  Remember, forsaken must follow the DO's orders even when following their own agenda.  He uses Taim to create loyal Ashaman as well as other Ashaman who, while not fighting for the DO, will cause chaos and get in Rand's way.  I beleive Weiramon is also his, although I can not remember the reasons off hand, but every time I read the books, I have been given this idea.  He uses Asunawa to take control of the WC after Sammael's death.  <br /><br />I think you guys are starting to grasp at straws here.  However, I do beleive that all these Demandred theories point towards his proxies, not he himself.  Demandred is the master, never forget this.  He beleives himself to be the DO's heir.  He has been successful at everything he has tried to accomplish.  He has aplan that has not yet come to fruition.<br /><br />And there is a borderlander army in Randland with as yet unkown motives.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 00:02:45
subject: <b>To wotenslaved:</b>
body:
&quot;Saren appears in the Great Hunt. This is a problem as the only loose forsaken at the time were Ishy and Lanfear. The rest were freed in the winter between TGH and TDR.&quot;<br /><br />Quote??  How would you know??  Are you basing your information off of Perrin's dreams in TDR?<br />  4 Forsaken were already free by TGH.  That is about a third of the Forsaken.  WoT has only been happening for about 2 years.  Much of the time elapsed in between TGH and TDR, in the 3 months they lost in the Portal Stones, and also in the winter spent in the Mountains of Mist.  <br />  Much speculation has also happened about whether that man with a scar in Baerlon in EoTW was Sammael or not.  <br /><br />&quot;A man with a scar across his face...<br /><br />and that fellow had a scar that crossed his whole face from one temple to the opposite jaw<br /><br />Maybe with that scar the fellow could not smile with that scar...&quot;<br /><br />The Guide says that Sammael had a scar that &quot;was a livid groove that slanted across his otherwise attractive face, as if a red-hot poker had been dragged from hairline to jaw.<br /><br />I suppose I just answered my own question.  He was not Sammael.  Sammael's scar only runs to his jaw, but not all the way to his opposite jaw.  <br /><br />It is most likely that Sammael was freed sometime in TDR because that is when Moiraine first started hearing rumors of Lord Brend.<br /><br />Semirhage, we know was freed sometime between that winter you talk about in TGH and TDR, because it said that she was made Tuon's truthspeaker one year ago, due to the accident of the one who fell down the stairs.<br /><br />Be'lal and Rahvin were both likely freed during that time you speak of due to their quick rise to power in TDR.  <br /><br />Asmo was probably free sometime in TDR, based on his sudden appearance in TSR.  However, we know that he spent some time in Arad Doman.  The jury is still out about what he was doing there.  The thing is, trouble was stirring in Almoth plain all the way back in TGH.  For all we know, either Graendal or Asmodean could have been free in TGH.  It was not too early by anything we know.<br /><br />Graendal did not appear until FoH, but based on the chaos in Arad Doman, it is quite possible she has been around since TGH.  She has obviously been manipulating Alsalom and Ituralde for quite a long time.<br /><br />Moghedien was probably freed sometime in TDR.  This is because we know that as soon as she was free she became reading the old records for useful info.  She quickly learned about the sad bracelets, and thus relocated to Tanchico in TSR.<br /><br />Mesanna was probably also freed sometime in TSR.  This is because the white tower split in TSR.  Mesanna obviously helped with that process.  But from all we know, she did not manipulate Siuan directly.  This indicates Mesanna was in the tower sometime in TDR.<br /><br />This leaves us with Demandred.  We know that Demandred was free in TSR at the very least.  This is because Lanfear mentioned him, saying that Demandred wasn't an option as a teacher for Rand, and also that Demmy would go after Rand if he found out about the statue he had.  There is nothing conclusive saying that Demandred couldn't have been released by TGH.<br /><br />My thinking, currently, is that Demandred was released in the same wave as Lanfear.  I think that Asmo and Graendal may have also been released then, based on the happenings of Almoth Plain.  <br /><br />You seem a little brash, unless you have direct evidence, to assert otherwise.<br /><br /><br />&quot;The use of WC to cause chaos in Tarabon/Toman Head was Ishy's plot to allow the Seanchan to land. Carridin was part of this plot. After Ishy's &quot;death&quot; Sammael took over Carridin. I also beleive that he started manipulating the WCs.&quot;<br /><br />You have some validity in your points.  But like GG and Columbo keep saying:  we have never seen Carriden give Saren an order.  Sammael is dead now, and it still appears that there is a Forsaken manipulating the WCs.<br /><br />These are important points your raised, but since I am not the strongest advocate of the Saren theory right now, I will let others reply to them in full.<br /><br /><br />&quot;My reason's for this assumption:<br />One: Sammaels comment about events to the south. There is one thing that nobody seems to have picked up on yet. The three factions involved south of Arad Doman at the time are the WC, the Seanchan and Masema's dragon sworn. From Sammael's comment we know that Demandred was involved with one of them (but probably not located with them) AND that Sammael was involved with one of them as well, for none of these factions threatened Illian at that time.&quot;<br /><br />I have to disagree here.  Sammael is a general and does not always think in immediate time, he sees threats well before they happen.  The Seanchan were on a dangerous collision course heading towerds Illian.  Sammael's comment was made in LoC.  In ACoS, the Seanchan already had Ebou Dar.  In PoD, Rand had to slow them down just to keep them out of the western reaches of Illian.  Therefore, Sammael may have been referring to Illian and nothing else.<br /><br />Sammael was using Carridin.  But what was he using him for?  Sammael was using Carridin to help him find the ter'angreal stash in Ebou Dar.  He may not have been manipulating the WCs any more than that.  I certainly don't see any evidence of it.<br /><br />&quot;I beleive that at this point in time the WC were being manipulated by Sammael. Sammael later comments that when the great lord returns, HE will give him NATIONS to follow him, even if they don't know who they are following. These comments are suprisingly simialar to Pedron Nialls agenda at the time. Also, land was ceded to Illian, and Pedron Nialls hands were all over it. Mattin Steppaneos was very interested in some plan that Pedron Niall hatched up. The hints are there, there was def some kind of collusion between Illian and the WC's.&quot;<br /><br />Hmmm.  Sammael getting the nations to follow him could have referred to any number of different things.  The WCs are not really that powerful.  Remember that.  Less than 10,000 strong.  This is just a minor force in Randland.<br /><br />Steppaneos and Niall hated each other.  Mattin was once a prisoner of the WCs.  I can't see them seeing eye to eye very well.  Provide quotes of what you are talking about, because I am getting a clear image of what you saying here.<br /><br />&quot;So, where was I going with this?? Oh, yah. Saren appeared in tGH, before Demandred was free, so he is out. Does this mean that Demmy has no hand in the WCs?? Of course not. I beleive that the assination of Niall and the coup was a Demmy takeover. After all Sammael was worried that Demmy had plans that threatened them and the Forsaken are known for fighting amongst themselves. I beleive that Demmy IS controlling Asunawa, and DID visit him to cause that stench but connecting him to Saren is ridiculous. Demandred is not Saren, I would be willing to put money on it.&quot;<br /><br />Like I said, I don't see any hard proof of when demmy was released.  It is still not proven whether Demmy is Saren or not, you are right.  I would not put any money on it yet, cause I am not certain myself.  Saren may have just been a proxy, because Sammael's quotes did indicate that:<br />a.  Demmy was manipulating events to the south of Arad Doman<br />b.  Demmy enjoyed using proxies<br />c.  Sammael thought he knew what Demmy was up to, but not where he was located (the proxies quote is thus useless for figuring out Demmies identity)<br /><br />So, you may be right in that Demmy is not Saren.  But I do not see alot of your logic.<br /><br /><br />&quot;As for him being Elbar, give me a break. Elbar was wounded by a woman with a knife!!&quot;<br /><br />So.  Demmy was not skilled with the sword like the rest of the Forsaken.  Min is a surprising woman.  If you were someone who was as prideful as Demandred, would you think that a slight woman like Min could flash knives as quick as she could?  Probably not.  It was unexpected.  Most women have no skill in weapons, in WoT.  Even less woman get tips from a gleeman like Thom.  I don't think the knives point can rule out Demmy being Elbar.<br /><br />&quot;If you guys really want to know, Demmy is a borderlander, most likely a Saldaen. Their millitancy would appeal to him. The raids into the borderlands have stopped, and Demmy comments on this many times, almost as if he is gloating. At the time he is also wearing a &quot;?Saldaen?&quot; fur lined coat.&quot;<br /><br />It was a velvet cloak.  Could be Seanchan, Saldean, or just a man wearing a coat to Shayol Ghul.  As far as I recall, velvet is a special type of fur, relatively scarce, and thus expensive.  however, we have seen too many different characters in WoT wearing it, to limit it just to the borderlands, while excluding it to Seanchan.<br /><br />&quot;Fighting in the borderlands was reported many times, often right before or after information connected to other Forsaken in other places. As a writer, I recognize all these comments as foreshadowing for a later plot line.&quot;<br /><br />A plot line, but who was pulling it?<br /><br />&quot; Demmy's involvement up to now has been small, for he is a character for a later plot line. And now we have a borderlander army in Randland. Which happens to be hoping to stumble into Rand. Coincidence??&quot;<br /><br />Probably not, but Rand is the master of coincidence.  But what army could be any more appealing than the Seanchan?  The borderlands are a definite possibility, but why does Demandred have to be with them?  We have no good suspects to fit the bill.  Tumad is a bell-ringer, but he doesn't work out.  His closeness and past history with Bastyr (and also his subserviance) just aren't Demandred criteria.<br /><br />If he was with the Borderlanders, why not just a proxy?<br /><br />&quot;This is how I see it. Demandred escapes from the bore and begins consolidating his power in the borderlands. He uses his proxies to further other plans. Masema, helps cause chaos in the west which is what the DO wants to allow the Seanchan to land. Remember, forsaken must follow the DO's orders even when following their own agenda. He uses Taim to create loyal Ashaman as well as other Ashaman who, while not fighting for the DO, will cause chaos and get in Rand's way. I beleive Weiramon is also his, although I can not remember the reasons off hand, but every time I read the books, I have been given this idea. He uses Asunawa to take control of the WC after Sammael's death.&quot;<br /><br />I agree that he is using many proxies.  Taim definitely appears to be one.  Masema is still up in the air, although some Forsaken is probably using him.  Weiramon?  It could be.  Maybe Demandred is the common link between Gedwyn and Weiramon.<br /><br />It also seems increasingly obvious that Demmy is involved with the WCs.  <br /><br />He is a hard man to pin down.  Good ideas, worthy of a long critique.  <br /><br />&quot;I think you guys are starting to grasp at straws here. However, I do beleive that all these Demandred theories point towards his proxies, not he himself. Demandred is the master, never forget this. He beleives himself to be the DO's heir. He has been successful at everything he has tried to accomplish. He has aplan that has not yet come to fruition.&quot;<br /><br />can't argue here.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 06:19:15
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
First off, I'm not usually one to supply direct quotes as I hate scouring through all the pages of the WOT to find one line.  Also, I can usually hit the quotes dead on without the book as I have read them soooooo many times.<br /><br />Anyways, my reasoning for the timeline for Forsaken release.  Belal and Aginor were released in tEOTw.  This was possible cuz they were treapped close to the surface of the bore.  This caused major scarring to both forsaken.  Demandred does not bear this scarring so I don't beleive he was released then.  Ishamael was only half bound so that is why he was free so early.  Lanfear was released in tGH.  We know this cuz we see her but also cuz of the dark prophecy.  It specifically states Lanfear as being free.  Of course this doesn't prove that others are not free as well, but this is not a court of law, it is a novel.  Then, in tDR,  Egwene dreams of men and women breaking out of a cage and putting on crowns.  At the same time we start hearing rumours about Lord Brend arriving in that winter as well as Gabriel.  From this we can realize that the other forsaken are now free.  Again, this might not hold up in a court of law but this is a novel and not just a novel, a RJ novel.  He never does anything without the proper foreshadowing. <br /><br />Some quotes to support collusion between WC and Illian<br /><br />&quot;Speaking of the WC,&quot;  Danelle put in, &quot;it appears that Pedron Nial is conducting secret negotiations, trying to convince Altara and Murandy to cede land to Illian&quot;  tFOH pg. 15<br /><br />&quot;Spme trouble between Ilian and Murandy had abated and Pedron Niall was claiming credit&quot;   TFoH  pg 290<br /><br />Chapter nine of the LoC is full off Pedron Niall's plans to unite the nations under him, plans that he is sure are suceeding.  Sammael also claims that he will have nations to hand to the DO,even if they don't know who rules them.  However, we do not see him doing much of anything to accomplish this.  We also don't hear of any rumours that can be traced back to such a plan by any one else. <br /><br />Besides, as you say, Sammael's fears could be for Illian itself, but only if Demandred is with the Seanchan.  This is possible, but I do not think as a run of the mill soldier.  <br /><br />As for Carridin and Sammael, I always felt that Sammael stating that he saw Carridin's sister Vanora in ACOS pg  362, showed that it was Sammael who sent the Fade to Carridin and warned him that if he failed he would feed his family to the trollocs one by one.  This would place Sammael's influence over Carridin back to TDR.  Furthermore, this would show that obtaining Carridin was one of Sammael's first actions, and therefore a major part of his plans.<br /><br />So in conclusion, many things tie Sammael in with the WCs.  As you said, Sammael's south quote does not mean that he is involved with one of the factions but only if Demandred is with the Seanchan.  Sammael's goals are consistent with the stated goals of the WCs.  And Sammael has had influence on at least one WC possibly as far back as his release.  These are my reasons for beleiving that if anyone was involved with the WC that far back it was Sammael, not Demmy.  <br /><br />I do not know where Demmy is or who he is.  However, I do not beleive that the WC have been moved by him in the beginning of the story, although since the coup it is a definite possibilty.  So this does not fit with him being a WC in dsguise.<br /><br />It appears that you beleive him to be with the Seanchan, which is a definite possibility.  However, to avoid complications with having two forsaken in the same place, I beleive that he must be with the forerunners, not the return.  However, the forerunners were defeated in tGH, and I firmly beleive that Demandred was not free at that time.  My reasoning might not be solid &quot;proof&quot;  however, I beleive that it is about as much as you can expect from the author.  Therefore, I can only beleive that Demmy took control of the Seanchan after Falme, which rules out Elbar as we have already seen him.  And I don't care how unskilled Demandred is with weapons, I can not beleive that he would allow himself to be stabbed by a woman and let it slide.  It does not fit his character at all.  He is way to prideful.  I also have trouble beleiving that he would masquarade as someone so low level.  At this point, the only high level Seanchan we have seen are women, so this also rules him out.<br /><br />As to the borderlands, we do not know what the fighting was about.  We do not know why Tenobia was in seclusion.  These are the only mysteries happening around the world at that time.  The others have been traced back to Forsaken involvement in various nations.  We also do not know why the raids from the blight stopped, (and why Demandred mentions it six times in one chapter, while he is wearing a fur lined cloak).  We do not know why the Borderlanders left or what they are up to.  What we do know is that they are a major force, and seem to have no forsaken involvement.  All of this might not be &quot;proof&quot;, but I'd still be willing to stake alot on it.<br /><br />So in conclusion, (I seem to say that alot don't I) the only firm possibillities are Seanchan or the borderlanders.  Saren is a very weak possibillity.  Elbar is as well.  Hell Taim is a much more liklier suspect then either of them.  I beleive that Demandred will be revealed to be a borderlander and at best, all of these other theories point to proxies. <br /><br /><br />P.S.  Asmodean in Arad Doman???   where is that stated??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 12:23:25
subject: <b>more evidence supporting Tai Shar's theory</b>
body:
Now, here is my new addition to the argument that Asunawa is under compulsion. I noticed it while rereading TDR.<br /><br />We see Morgase talking to Mat. She is telling Mat what to say to Elayne if he ever sees her again: &quot;tell her that what is said in anger is often repented. I will not remove her from the White Tower before time. Tell her that I often think of my own time there, and miss the quiet talks with Sheriam in her study. Tell her that Thom Grinwell.&quot;<br /><br />So we see that Morgase clearly has some past nostalgia by Sheriam. But can this be seen as anything out of the ordinary?<br /><br />Check out the next chapter.<br /><br />In the next chapter we see Tallanvor talking to Mat. Tallanvor is asking Mat about Tar Valon. Mat wonders what in the light Tallanvor is after.<br /><br />Tall. says, &quot;You must have heard something, man. Who is Sheriam? Does talking to her in her study mean anything?&quot;<br /><br />Mat shook his head vigorously to keep relief from showing on his face. &quot;I don't know who she is,&quot; he said truthfully. &quot;Why should it mean anything?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I do not know,&quot; Tallanvor said softly. &quot;There is too much I do not know. Sometimes I think she is trying to say something...&quot;<br /><br />So we see that Tallanvor is clearly worried about Morgase. He has clearly heard Morgase say similar things all of a sudden, and he can't figure out why she is saying them. It is out of character for a queen to babble like that. I think Tallanvor's concern for Morgase has more to do with his worry for her rather for his love for her.<br /><br />If you add this with the evidence Tai shar presented, her seeking out the paintings of former queens of Andor, I think we have a good indication that compulsion really does make one seek out their past in search for their real identity. This is part of the fight that Rahvin mentioned, the fight that he said that only the smallest percentage of people with strong minds could make.<br /><br />So far, we have seen 2 people make this fight: Charin and Morgase.<br /><br />I think it is likely that we can now add a third (as suggested by Tai shar): Asunawa.<br /><br />Asunawa must have a very strong mind if he is able to resist compulsion in even the slightest way (and thus seek out a book from his days of youth as a white cloak). It is likely that Asunawa has a strong mind. How else would he have risen to be the top Questioner?<br /><br />Ok- just wanted to add more logs to the fire. A new nugget has been unearthed. Something small, but small pebbles add up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 13:16:52
subject: <b>Very nice except for one thing....</b>
body:
Taimandred!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 14:39:31
subject: <b>What RJ said</b>
body:
After WH was released Robert Jordan said we now had enough info to identify each of the Forsaken, so what evidence from previous passages supports this theory. I am already hunting for clues to a different mystery, so can't really look deeply, but it is a thought.


created: 2003-01-13 16:54:31
subject: <b>Saren is a proxy</b>
body:
The stench definitely came from the Blight.  Good catch!  But, Saren can't be Demandred.  Demandred is (or was) controlling events in the South through proxies, not through his actual presence.  Plus, he and Osan'gar were supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand between the two of them.  Rand hasn't been in the South for quite a long time, and there's no way that Demandred could keep a close eye on Rand from that far away.


created: 2003-02-06 03:04:40
subject: <b>Other possible explanations for the stench</b>
body:
It is possible that the elusive stench in the Prologue is related to the stench/decay happening at So Harbor and cropping up in other random places. The stench could simply be a sign that the Shadow is getting stronger and that the Last Battle is near. Why does the smell disappear? Because it is a thing of shadow and not that strong yet. But this could be foreshadowing that what happened at So Harbor will happen here next.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-13 15:06:11
subject: <b>I kinda think not...</b>
body:
I have to diasagree to this theroy for a this reason. <br />First of all, I do not think that Demandred has anything to do with the Whitecloaks. My main reason for believing this is the meeting that the Forsaken have in an earlier book. <br />In this meeting, Halima AKA Aran'Gar, says that it was Demandred's and Osan'Gar's job to keep watch over Rand, just as it was her job to watch over Egwene. <br />Because Osan'gar is dead once again, he really matters little any more, but if Dwemandred has been tasked to watch Rand, how could he also watch Eamon Valda?<br />That's just my opinion, of course.<br /><br />PS. This is my first opinion post, so if I'm really off base here please say so.


created: 2003-05-22 13:07:52
subject: <b>Valda`s so-called Spy</b>
body:
Weren`t Eamon Valda`s so-called spy`s actions a little suspicious?  He could well have been ordered to kill Valda by Compulsion, and that points to a Forsaken.  I agree with the stench coming from the SG area,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-05 09:16:28
subject: <b>whitecloak problem</b>
body:
the only real problem i can think of with the Demandred Whitecloak theory is infact rather a large problem. <br /><br />if Demandred is a whitecloak then (obviously) he is the real power in the fortress of light if not in amadicia. so why did pedron nial need to be bumped off? some of the Lord Captain Commanders thoughts suggested that he maybe under compulsion, he felt confused, doubted himself, begining to feel frail and old which was unlike him. sounds like someone is telling him its time to start taking advice from a younger more able man. (demandred)<br /><br />BUT<br /><br />Morgase was all that time in the Fortress i doubt Demandred feels reserved to put morgase to the question in order to get her signiture, he would get it and andor with it by any means possible.<br /><br />OK<br /><br />we can explain away morgase (possibly) by saying that Dem didnt really want to go against Rand full force so let morgase keep andor (he was in caemlyn at the time remember)<br /><br />BUT<br /><br />the next problem comes up and this is a MAJOR problem. what happens shortly after Valda takes charge? the Seanchan invade amadicia, take the fortress of light and route the children. luckily Valda and Asunawa were away with most of the children at the time but they have clashed several times with seanchan soldiers. <br /><br />in case anyone has forgotten, semirhage has taken a very prominant position with the seanchan. suroth who heads the seanchan army at the time is a darkfriend also.<br /><br />SO<br /><br />Demandred and his soldiers are attacked by either Semirhage and her soldiers (let me remind you all that this would not happen because of their &quot;alliance&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> OR he is attacked by a darkfriend who would probably soil herself if he frowned at her.<br />Does this seem unlikely to anyone? Demandred isnt the kid of man to just give up on the place he owns because hes a bit bored.


created: 2005-04-22 01:20:54
subject: <b>Gee</b>
body:
Anybody ever think Demandred just dropped into the camp to give Saren orders and receive his report? I personally like this theory, it's got a lot of merit.<br /><br />As to the whole Forsaken release timeline, with the exceptions of Aginor and Balthamel; I always figured they escaped in an order based on their strength in the Power(Ishamael, Lanfear, wasn't Demandred next on the Top Thirteen list?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-24 12:26:10
subject: <b>Final thoughts from the authur</b>
body:
Saren is not Demandred,i think i was on a total jump to a conclusion i gotta get onto this before everyone else does kinda trip. I don't think that any character is represented by him(Demandred), he was totally all about proxies. It was a big call and i was wrong. The stench,the similarities between Asunawa and Morgase's conditions i still stand by, i have seen nothing to say i was wrong as yet. Good discusion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 09:37:36
subject: <b>A severed bloody hand</b>
body:
The &quot;Severed Bloody Hand&quot; could also refer to the Band of the Red Hand being taken down.<br />


created: 2002-10-02 10:18:34
subject: <b>perhaps...</b>
body:
Manetheren resurrected and the Malkier once again in power, that would certainly be a change in political geography. However, I'm not sure that Malkier would be of any danger to Andor, and Perrin won't want to be ruler of both a new Manetheren and Saldaea. It's all conjecture...


created: 2002-10-02 12:04:50
subject: <b>I dunno...</b>
body:
I don't really see how Perrin could end up being trouble for Elayne.  I think it far more likely that the iron refers to WC Questioners, or something of that nature.  Also, if the axe refers to Perrin, why have the iron there too?  Min shouldn't be seeing Perrin's warring duality of creator/destroyer around Elayne, she should be seeing that around Perrin.  I think there are too many other possibilities that make more sense, and no probable ways for Perrin to become a source of trouble to Elayne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">www.scienceofshape.com<br />www.whysohostile.com<br />www.ancillarymusic.com<br />www.scienceofshape.com/sidetracked/</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 14:23:24
subject: <b>yah</b>
body:
I even had a dream about this, that Perrin and Elayn will have their armies ready for a fight over the two rivers and Barleon (which sounds like a lot of trouble to me). <br />And this is when Perrin has to go to Saldea to save that country, and Mat takes over and fights Elayn. I even saw Rand agreeing with Mats, since he was angry with Elayn for all her stupid mistakes.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 20:35:33
subject: <b>WC vs, Perrin</b>
body:
Redhot irons could just as easily represent the White Cloaks (as Cymbaline pointed out).  I think we all agree that the axe is Perrin.  But how would this bother Elayne?  Because her brother is rising to a high rank among the White Cloaks!  Perhaps the upcoming battle between Perrin's army and the WC army will cause some strife for Elayne?  (If there is an upcoming battle, though it certainly looks that way.)  By choosing Perrin's side, she will appear to be supporting Manetheren.  By choosing Galad's forces, she will be going against Rand.  That would be a hell of a conundrum...<br /><br />As pointed out by Burr, that quote was taken out of context and in its entirety could mean that Lan's ring of Malkieri kings could cause Elayne trouble as well.  It has been stated bfore in New Spring and in tEoTW that many borderlander's would flock to that banner if it were ever raised again.  And what army is biding its time in Caemlyn at the moment?  When and IF Nynaeve returns to Caemlyn, the pieces would all be in place for the Golden Crane to fly again.  Tie all of this together and you can see where trouble could be caused for Elayne.<br /><br />Then again, this entire ramble might just be my subconcious desire to see Galad have his ass kicked, lots of Whitecloaks die and see Lan become more the bad-ass than he already is. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-02 20:44:04
subject: <b>The Severed Hand</b>
body:
First, Rand's viewing could simply be him getting his hands branded with the Herons. There didn't seem to be danger involved with that one.<br /><br />Second, The severed hand most tend to believe, as I do, is the Band of the Red Hand, cut off from Mat, most likely coming to Elayne's rescue. She has several armies massing outside Caemlyn, and she has been hiring mercenaries for help.<br /><br />Third, If it is distant trouble, for the axe and hot iron, it could involve Elayne and Andor in dispute with Perrin and Manetheren, post Last Battle.<br /><br />A little Light in the Night<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 04:32:45
subject: <b>Third Viewing - Border disputes</b>
body:
I agree with the original theorizer's idea that the first two are not related to the third.  About the third viewing, on Elayne:  &quot;A man's ring of heavy gold floated above Nyaneve's head, and above Elayne's a red hot iron and an axe. They meant trouble, she was sure, but it seemed distant, somewhere in the future.&quot;<br /><br />How these things seem tied to Elayne's distant troubles seems obvious -- Lan has a right to rebuild Malkier and Perrin will rebuild Manetheren of old.  With Elayne's increasing kingdom, the three friends will eventually have political troubles between them in deciding what's best for their kingdoms.<br /><br />I say it seems obvious because Jordan used symbols of the kingdoms, not just of the particular people involved.  He could've used another symbol for Lan and Perrin (wolf comes quickly to mind) but he chose things that symbolize both men's paths to claiming/building thrones.<br /><br />I blather.  And misspell -- well it's late ... you get the picture tho <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Vember <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><i> here's to one undiscoverable guess<br />of whose mad skill each world of blood is made<br />(whose fatal songs are moving in the moon </i>- e e cummings</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 08:43:46
subject: <b>A couple things to add</b>
body:
Perrin has this vision during a dream, it could have been put there by Ishameal, who was visiting him at the time, but maybe he just had a viewing.<br /><br /><i>He stared into the mirror, a part of him not comprehending what he saw, another part accepting. A gilded helmet, worked like a lion&#8217;s head, sat on his head as if it belonged there. Gold leaf covered his ornately hammered breastplate, and gold-work embellished the plate and mail on his arms and legs. Only the axe at his side was plain. A voice - his own - whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles. No! He wanted to take it off, throw it away. I can&#8217;t! There was a sound in his head, louder than a murmur, almost at the level of understanding. </i><br /><br />And also, we see Perrin hearing voices is in his head, a dull murmur anyway, just like Rand does, is it past lives, or just Ishameal messing with him? If it were a vision from the wolf dream, then I would have to think the lion helmet has something to do with Elayne. Maybe somebody else can shed some light on this headwear.<br /><br />Also, I like the possibility of Nynaeve uniting the border lands a lot. As we know, the borderland armies are passing though Andor right now, as was stated, and Elayne is going to use them as a tool to gather support for herself from the nobel houses. This plan could backfire, perhaps Rand will finally meet with the borderlanders while they are still on Andor soil, and Nynaeve will unite them. Now suppose that some of the other houses of Andor start fighting with the border landers, it could go terribly bad for Elayne. Perhaps they will blame Elayne for the borderlander presence. Who knows but the great RJ how it will all come to a head. I know I didn&#8217;t talk much about the poker in my ramblings, I really have no clue on that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 13:57:07
subject: <b>Some comments on the comments</b>
body:
I don't think their is any possibility that the aura of the bloody hand around Rand refers to him being branded with Herons.  He didn't bleed then!<br /><br />Second the fact that Rand will lose a hand is also suggested by the myth of Tyr who lost his hand to the teeth of a great wolf (Fenrir? The same wolf was believed to swallow parts of the Moon to cause its phases and the sun to cause eclipses I do believe.)  RJ doesn't follow the myths exactly but I don't doubt he will follow this one in the same way that Rand pulled Callander from the stone of Tear.<br /><br />Third we know that Elayne will somehow be with Rand during at least one phase of the last battle.  (She is one of 3 in a boat ladies who is taking Rand back to be brought back to life.)  Further there is a formation called the teeth of the dark one.  <br /><br />Why say that the severed hand and the bloody hand aura's are unrelated when everything fits so well.<br /><br />Fourth there is a big difference between a 'red hand' and a severed hand.  The band of the red hand is firmly attached to Mat (Talmanes even feels Mat needing him to the South').  I doubt very much that it will become 'severed' from Mat.  The term 'severed' is more severe than just a temporary splitting IMHO.<br /><br />Finally (to Windsor) the vision that Perrin had wearing the armor was most certainly from Lanfear.  She appears in this portion of the dream.  She was trying to convince him to seek glory.  The whispers in Perrin's head could be past lives or possibly wolves trying to communicate with him.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 18:41:27
subject: <b>Perrin's Budding Empire</b>
body:
It has been mentioned before, both by myself and others, that Perrin is staring into becoming something of an emporer.  It is strongly possible that he will ultimately rule in Saldaea, as well as new-found Manetheren (The Two Rivers and environs).  Part of this is in the national border of Andor, and both Elayne has mentioned sending Gareth Byrne (in one of the first books) to straighten it out, and Faile has also contradicted Perrin's belief that Andor won't care by mentioning an anecdote of her own where her uncle brought back some regions that hadn't seen a taxman in four generations. <br /><br />Sovereigns do not give up their land to others just because they're friends.<br /><br />Further, the northwest region of Westland seems prone to plucking, and I wouldn't be surprised to see much of it wrapped up in New Manetheren. <br /><br />Last bit: where was Hawkwing from?  I've never been able to figure it out.  It always struck me as odd that he and Perrin rode knee-to-knee at Falme.  It seemed...formal. But this is strictly idle speculation.


created: 2002-10-04 12:56:31
subject: <b>Hawkwing was from a tiny country that doesn't exist anymore.</b>
body:
Hawkwing was from a tiny country that doesn't exist anymore. I can't remember its name but it is in a region where there are no countries at the moment (in WoT).  I do believe it is northish of Cairhien.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 13:31:03
subject: <b>Severed Hand</b>
body:
Another interpretation of the &quot;Severed Hand&quot; could be a reference to Shadar Haran (the Shadow's Hand), cut off from the True Power -- i.e. severed.  That potentially opens the &quot;irons&quot; to be related to the forges of Tha'kandar, and could set up some connection to Shayol Ghul, which we need if Elayne is indeed going to give birth to twin Heroes of the Horn on the day of the Last Battle.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-16 20:49:24
subject: <b>Darth Perrin...Connection to CoT</b>
body:
As most of us have read in the review of CoT, whether at wotmania or dragonmount, the reviews say that we will see another side of Perrin, that Perrin becomes disgusted with himself, that at the end Perrin makes the reader's jaw drop. That, and with the advance summaries at amazon, about how Perrin must sell his soul and make a truce with the enemy and whatnot, well it seems that Perrin has a dark future in store. This with the past conflicts between Rand and Perrin makes me think that Perrin will somehow turn on Rand and the others to save Faile.<br /> -woohoo<br />


created: 2003-01-22 19:31:49
subject: <b>Bloody Hand is not necessarily a Severed Hand</b>
body:
Remember what Rand thought when asking Adley in PoD (Floating like Snow)if he was upset about having to kill women-&quot;...my hands are black with the blood of women...&quot;  Rand's bloody hand viewing could be something as symbolic as that, like the pouring water on sand.  There is nothing in Min's viewing to suggest that the bloody hand is severed in any way.  Also in PoD it says the words come with the viewing.  She would not call a red hand &quot;bloody&quot; if the viewing didn't mean bloody.  Also blood would come out of a severed hand and ooze away from it, not necessarily all over it.  It think Min would have noticed if the two viewings were connected.  Besides, it appears that that was the basis of Min and Elayne getting to know one another- their common acquaintence with Rand. Min would almost have certainly told her if she had any reason to think it was Rand's, not to mention he has very distinctive hands.  If his hand gets severed, it will have a heron on the palm and a dragon's head on the back, so one or the other would be visable.  If Min knew enough to tell Elayne that it wasn't her hand, don't you think she would have mentioned, &quot;Oh it has a heron branded on the palm,&quot; or &quot;By the way, there's a strange, red &amp; gold creature's head on the back.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 09:58:26
subject: <b>some spoiler included. Severed Hand, Iron, etc</b>
body:
I don't want to say too much in this because I've never bothered to look up wotmania's spoiler policy :p, but I will say this as a possible answer. When you read COT, think about an aielman, a (color)-hot iron searing flesh, perrin's axe, and a severed hand all in the same scene. Its slim, though this could have connections with the viewings. Its just a matter of what trouble would come of it.<br /><br />Aratan


created: 2003-05-14 14:31:50
subject: <b>The red hot iron...</b>
body:
I didn't get to finish reading all the posts so please forgive me if I repeat anyone, but I dont' wanna forget this.<br /><br /> There are only supposed to be a few more books. So what if the red hot iron represents the whitecloaks (along w/ galad) and the ax represents perrin (Along w/ faile and the broken crown) Now Galad always tries to do whatever he thinks is right so maybe he is trying to keep perrin away from Elayne for some unknown reason. Now Perrin's being near Rand is going to be important and if he gets stuck away from Rand that'll mess things up. Now my theory is that the dragon's blood being spilled on mount.. (Whatever mountain it is) is the babies being born. SO  maybe Perrin needs to be there w/ the influence of his own crown to get Elayne to that mountain in time for the birth. In order for this something must happen to Galad who is now in a high position w/ the whitecloaks.<br /><br />  I have no idea if this is true but readin' other comments I came up w/ it so..


created: 2002-10-04 15:12:26
subject: <b>Just so there is no confusion:</b>
body:
This is truly Dedric's original idea.  I immediately sent him 50 WSE pts. once it was posted.  I just wanted to get the idea up on theorypost, since it has been needing some good theories lately.  I added a few things, but the basic scheme is not my original idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 15:22:44
subject: <b>Wait a sec...</b>
body:
If what happenes to you in the dream world happens to you in the real world, and the Finn have a lot of skin to make formal garments from it, then why arent there a lot of stories about people waking up with no skin? That sort of a story would certainly travel around, especially if we are talking about hundreds of victims, here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 15:51:19
subject: <b>just an idea</b>
body:
maybe people don't wake up with no skin because somehow their actual body is destroyd to - and they just dissapear in the night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Susan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT swearer</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 15:52:15
subject: <b>Enough already</b>
body:
Direct from the message board:<br /><br />I've read some theories like this before. Its just not a good idea to base it on the one incident TGH, as Jordan often uses &quot;skinning alive&quot; as a torture (ie Lanfear). I personally like the idea that there is a &quot;colony&quot; of humans in the Finn world; its from these people that they have the skin. These people could either be a slave race, or more likely another society at war with the Finns in their world. This could explain where Min came from - a mix of human and finn, so she can &quot;see beyond&quot;. And then there is Olver... well, I wont go into that again.<br /><br />Anyway, neither of the above have a lot of evidence, but nothing in the series mentions the Finn's as hunters. Birgitte even said that they AREN'T evil in TSR, just so different from humans that they are dangerous. I think if they hunted men then she would consider them evil...<br /><br /><br /><br />Okay, now that this is officially on the Theory Post, I got more to add. Someone said something on the MB about how they could still be hunters of men and not evil, but you have to look at Birgitte's no nonsense character. She's a soldier, she doesn't think about the relationships of cats and mice. She thinks about war, and if the Finn were a group who went around hunting men in Tel'Aran&quot;Rhiod she would say they were evil. That's just the kind of character she is. <br /><br />Also, the Tower can be entered in T'A'R AND the &quot;real&quot; world. It's just harder to exit in T'A'R. All this means is that the Finn world has a TAR counterpart, or that it is in connection with Randland differently than the other worlds. My opinion is that its one of the world's that are cross grained to the pattern, the ones that Verin tells Egwene aboot in TGH. Anyway, the way the Finn are described, and the way Jordan's logic tends to work pretty much eliminates this theory.


created: 2002-10-04 15:52:54
subject: <b>Birgitte said the Finn's are not evil...</b>
body:
Birgitte said the Finn's are not evil...  I don't remember the exact quote but it was something to the effect that the Finns were not evil the way the Shadow is evil but that they are so different that they might as well be.  I think that hunting people for their skins would fall under the strickly evil category.  <br /><br />We do have at least two other instances of people being skinned alive.  Padan Fain had the two Shienarian's skinned alive in tGH.  (Although it was probably not in one piece.)  Lanfear skinned Kadere alive (and in one piece) in tFoH.  (I think Lanfear was busy in her study during this time though.)  Semirhage is desribed as being in a similar place which is most likely near SG in which she had no desire to explore.  Maybe that is where Perrin was at.  That would explain why he found Lanfear there as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 15:53:52
subject: <b>Could be....</b>
body:
I suppose that may be possible, but is there anything to support that? And either way, if people just disappeared, then hundreds of nobles being &quot;kidnapped&quot; should have the same result. <br /><br />Now, it could be that this happened over hundreds  and hundreds of years so as to prevent too much suspicion, but even still, just one person with his skin missing would cause quite a uproar, I would think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 16:26:18
subject: <b>Almost what i was thinking, but...</b>
body:
I think that, instead of the Finn accessing TAR, they have there own world that is perhaps at a right angle to the real world.  As we know, the Portal worlds are worlds that are &quot;parallel&quot; to the real one.  And i know, though again i can't find where (i loaned my books to somebody and haven't been able to get to them recently) that somewhere the world of the Finn is described as being not quite parallel, but intersects the real world.  <br /><br />Therefore, one can access their world at these interesections (Crossroads?) or through TAR, which we know is constant throughout all worlds.  Another interesting point is the description of the place where Perrin is, and exactly where he meets the strange man...<br /><br />&#8220;He was in a long hallway, its high stone ceiling and walls glistening with damp and streaked by odd shadows. They lay in contorted strips, stopping as abruptly as they began, too dark for the light between them. He had no idea where the light came from...<br /><br />&#8220;Other hallways crossed the one he ran along, at odd angles, sometimes descending, sometimes climbing. None looked any different from the passage he was in, though. Damp stone walls unbroken by doors, and strips of darkness.<br /><br />&#8220;As he came on one of those crossing halls, he skidded to a halt. A man stood there, blinking at him uncertainly, in strangely cut coat and breeches, the coat flaring over his hips as the bottoms of the breeches flared over his boots. Both were bright yellow, and his boots were only a little paler.<br /><br />Now, given the importance of crossroads and the importance of twilight to the Finn's (see theories on the meaning of the title, Crossroads of Twilight) i find it rather indicative that Perrin came on the man right in the middle of the crossing halls, in a twilight type lighting (low light, long shadows).  Perhaps standing at these Crossroads, as the man was doing, is a quick way for your skin to be taken by the Finn.  Now, as many people have pointed out, it is probably impossible to actually dream yourself directly into Finnland, but maybe this is corridor to Finnland.  The fact that Perrin has seen it and knows the dangers of the moving shadows at the hallway crossings will actually become relevant in the upcoming trip to Finnland (which almost everybody agrees is going to happen, if not on who will go).<br /><br />The other thing that was interesting in this scene is Lanfear reading in the next room.  She was reading documents and cried out in surprise and anger (fear?) that Perrin will ruing things &quot;He can't even begin to imagine&quot;.  There are no solid explanations for this scene that i have read, so all we have is conjecture.  <br /><br />Another thing that is interesting is that the blood from the man who became skinless splattered on Perrin, and this blood was STILL THERE when Perrin awoke.  This is the ONLY time in the entire series that we have seen physical residue, outside of injury, from TAR remain after waking.  Why is this episode different, and how did this happen?<br /><br />The slayer angle is also interesting, though perhaps unrelated.  How did Slayer gain permission to enter and exit a place that is known for being almost impossible to leave?  Perhaps Slayer's name is the answer.  Maybe he is the liason into the the real world to collect hides, and he brings them to the Finn.  Only conjecture, but it makes sense.  <br /><br />This would have to incorporate a deal with the Finn by the Shadow, and i think an extension of this deal could be seen by Lanfear being there in the &quot;corridor&quot;.  She brought a sacrifice, and was able to access information.<br /><br />If we assume that the shadow made a deal with the Finn for information (like Ishamael knowing what would happen if he sent Hawkwing's army across the sea) maybe that would explain why you can't ask a question that touches on the shadow.  Not because they are averse to discussing the shadow, but because it would violate the agreement made.  We know from Birgitte that they are not evil in essence, but are so different that they might as well be.  The difference could be that they put their value in bargains made over values that normal people would label good.  In that sense, they would be amoral.  To be evil, evil has to be your intent.  If the evil of an action is a secondary characteristic, it is not evil in the strictest sense.<br /><br />Another interesting thing about this scene is when Lanfear &quot;expels&quot; Perrin from the &quot;corridor&quot;.  It looks like traveling, but inversely so.  All of the sudden Lanfear and the room she was in &quot;flattened&quot; like a two dimensional photograph, turned sideways on a vertical axis, until it was nothing more than a straight line in front of Perrin.  If we can imagine the Finnland corridor to be at a right angle to the real world, then it WOULD LOOK LIKE A TWO DIMENSIONAL PICTURE if you were looking at it from the brink, kind of like the street drawings in Mary Poppins (bad analogy, but fitting).  Being dispelled in that way would logically appear exactly as it did to Perrin.<br /><br />The last thing that is interesting is Hopper.  He says that this place is more dangerous than &quot;all of the Neverborns&quot;.  Most people attribute this to Perrin's novice status as a dreamer, or to the proximity to Lanfear, but the very next dream Perrin has, Hopper LEADS Perrin to observe a Forsaken meeting.  The next dream after that Hopper shows Perrin ANOTHER meeting witht he Forsaken, the one between Ishamael, Rahvin, and Be'lal in that place that looks similar to the ways.  <br /><br />These encounters are admittedly dangerous for a newcomer in TAR, but all Hopper does is warn Perrin.  Conversely, in the scene that we are talking about, Hopper wigs out and goes for Perrin's throat to get him away.  It is that dangerous, and we can conclude that there is 'something' that makes it so dangerous, something that is different about the 'place' that Perrin went.<br /><br />In the end all we have is circumstantial evidence and conjecture, yet RJ admittedly wrote more vaguely and ambiguously in the first three or four books (i read this in an interview, if someone wants to point out where, that would be great).  Therefore, we SHOULD be overly analytical of events in the first three books.<br /><br />My thanks to Matrimony Cauthon for getting this on the theory post with quotes and references.  Maybe with this thread more light will be shed on exactly what happened in this scene.


created: 2002-10-04 16:48:22
subject: <b>As for the man...</b>
body:
Who knows where he came from.  My guess, and it is only an educated guess, is that he was the ruler from Shara.  We have not seen anybody wear bright yellow coat and pants with yellow boots, cut the way this man's was, with an accent that this man had.  He recognized Perrin as a &quot;foreigner&quot;, with disdain.  <br /><br />Where do we KNOW foreigners are treated with disdain?  Shara.  Also, anybody from Westland, especially a ruler, who this man appears to be from his suprise and annoyance that Perrin didn't recognize him, would most likely recognize Perrin as just a peasant from Andor.  All through the series we hear people described like &quot;Kandori by his dress&quot; or &quot;in the Tearen fashion&quot; and so on.  Never just foreigner.  And, as i stated, his accents are not comparable to anything we have read.  Perhaps quickness and precision of speech increases from west to east, as the Seanchan have a slow drawl, Westland is normal, and Shara is quick and clipped.  Conjecture again, but it fits.<br /><br />This also fits with what we know about Shara so far.  They have one ruler and one first lady or first man, depending on the sex of the ruler.  The ruler stays in power for seven years, then is put to death if he/she hasn't died already, and the spouse takes over.  When that spouse takes over, he/she must find a new spouse, and that new spouse becomes the new first lady/man, and the cycle repeats.  We know from Graendal that she has the ruler of Shara and HER first man as one of her toys.  And she comments that this lady would have ruled Shara for seven years, implying that her tenure just started.  Which also implies that the man, since the last ruler had to have been a man, has recently been killed or died.  <br /><br />This would fit into the timeline perfectly, and also fit every piece of evidence we have.  I've said this before, but what better way to create chaos in a society than to completely wipe out their system of leadership.  In order to do this you would have to eliminate all three to stop the cycle of succession.  <br /><br />Anyways, i think the man was from Shara, and probably the ruler.


created: 2002-10-04 16:58:23
subject: <b>And one last thing....</b>
body:
I'll keep this short...<br /><br />People who die in TAR don't just disappear, they seem like they died in their sleep.  <br /><br />This would not, however, explain why the people are necessary if the Finn could just imagine they had human skin as trophies.  <br /><br />That is the significance of the blood staying on Perrin even when he awoke.  What he saw was not a 'normal' TAR death.  It was REAL.  <br /><br />The question is How?, and Why?


created: 2002-10-04 21:42:54
subject: <b>TAR lasting into WoT RL</b>
body:
tEotW has a passage - and if I could find who borrowed my book I would look it up for you all. It comes from one of Rand's dreams of the DO, in the dream Rand pricks himself upon a bramblebush thorn. When he awakens the thorn is still stuck into his hand... he pulls it out and then it dissapates.<br /><br />That said, I agree that Perrin awakening with blood upon his face certainly has some import that is largely being overlooked otherwise. I mentioned the thorn to provide evidence of another link between that death and the shadow. If the DO dream with Rand could carry on after he awoke, is it not possible that the blood splattered upon Perrin was related to another DO dream in some way?<br /><br />One last thought for you all... if cutting yourself in TAR results in a corresponding wound occuring to your sleeping body, why would a gruesome death result in only a corpse appearing to have died in their sleep?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jheran...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Insert witty remark here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 00:16:32
subject: <b>About the man...</b>
body:
I like the idea about the man being from Shara.  Who knows, maybe the Sharan ruler is skinned in this fashion every seven years.  Just a thought.


created: 2002-10-05 01:37:07
subject: <b>Slayer and The Tower of Ghenji</b>
body:
I see only one problem with Slayer having access to the Tower Of Ghenji...   I don't have Winter's Heart right now to look it up but remember where the couple was killed while they slept?   That was Slayer's doing...  The interesting thing about that is Slayer STEPPED OUT of T'A'R where the couple was...   Slayer has the ability to enter TAR in the flesh...    I don't think Slayer entered the Tower I think he merely stepped out of TAR...<br /><br />Just my 2 cents<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If she tries Mistress Snoot with me I'll bloody well kick her.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 03:35:33
subject: <b>NO NO NO NO NO.......</b>
body:
Doesn't anyone realize that the Eelfinn wear the skin and that Aelfinn give the information?  Min could very well be part Aelfinn, but the shadow DIDN'T strike a deal with the Eelfinn for answers!!!!!  The Eelfinn don't give answers, they grant requests, and at a price.  I'm pretty sure that they get the skin from people who come looking for answers, that's the price the unwarry get stuck with paying.  If you'll remember, when Matt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> goes into the land of the Eelfinn, he asks for a way out of the room, and they say he was smart to ask for that, but dumb to not name a price.  Don't you see, there is NO conection between the Eelfinn (Much less the Finn in general) and  T'A'R.  Then man getting skined alive wasn't skined by the Finn, most likely it was a Noble, brought in from Shara and killed by the forsaken, or it could just be a noble that got there on accident and was in the middle of a nightmare, although I would have to admit that would be rather anlike RJ.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Son of the Nine Moons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Brother-in-law to Matt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I read more <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> They're coming to take me away. Heh heh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 08:55:06
subject: <b>Twisted ter'angreal</b>
body:
For waht it's worth, both the redstone doorways and the dream ter'angreal we are most familiar with (Egwene's ring) are constantly described as 'twisted'. <br /><br />This perhaps connects their use (evidence for a connection between the world of the Finns and T'A'R) and may provide insight to the nature of the world of the finns (twisted or crossroads).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Myrdin</b><br /><br />Language most shows a man: speak that I may see thee.<br /> - Ben Jonson<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 10:07:23
subject: <b>Not the Sharan ruler(s)</b>
body:
The current Sh'boan &amp; Sh'botay of Shara are part of Graendal's menagerie of slaves. She shows them off to Sammael, causing him to speculate on what plans she may have outside of the Westlands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 11:39:24
subject: <b>Other Connections</b>
body:
Matrimony, Dedric, I'm a bit surprised you missed another obvious connection here:<br /><br />Wolves.<br /><br />If the 'foxes' can control and/or reside in TAR, that's just waaaaay too similar to another dog-like creature who also regularly access TAR...the wolves.<br /><br />We see NO other references for animals in TAR.  Both are canine-like creatures that live partly in or at least spend significant time in the Dreamland.  Both are also hunters.  &quot;We Hunt.&quot; <br /><br />Now...the Foxes are essentially a civilized race, for whatever that means.  One would not consider the wolves such, in the manner of an organized society.  I do not know what the relationship is, save for that there must be one.<br /><br />Also, something to consider about the Finns.  How did/does the DO get dead people back?  Perhaps that's a little too strong, but let's look at things.<br /><br />The DO is called &quot;The Lord of the Grave.&quot;  Okay, perhaps he has power to bring back dead, as maybe some sort of Hyper-healing.  But Lanfear can not be assumed to have died.  I know this is complicated, because I'll now say I think she DID, but... we all (or the vast majority) expect Moiraine to return.  So if Lanfear died from their fall into the other world, then so must have Moiraine.  Obviously, the DO would not choose to bring HER back. <br /><br />So that implies that the DO must bargain in some way with the Finns to bring people back from their land, and being the Father of Lies, simply tells people it's his own power.  There might be more to the &quot;Last Chance&quot; thing (what I believe 'Cyndane' means) than a stern warning.  <br /><br />Also, we know another person who died and came back -- Mat.  If we accept what the Finns say as true, then he 'lived and died and live(d) again'. <br /><br />Anyway, just some thoughts on the connections. I'd written before about the Finns as an 'Other Power(s)'.


created: 2002-10-06 13:32:18
subject: <b>WTF!!!???</b>
body:
I don't know what the heck is going on with this post. Wolves? Both Hunters? First off, only one group of Finn are even vaguely canine (foxes dont even look a lot like dogs upon close examination). Second, there is nothing in the books even remotely making it seem like either Finn hunt people, other than the skins the guys are wearing. <br /><br />And why the heck would Jordan do something so stupid? Its pointless to make a &quot;hunter&quot; race at this point in the series. <br /><br />As for Lanfear=Cyndane, well here is what makes a lot more sense. Lanfear goes through the gate and gets burned out. She goes to the Finn and wishes for her ability to channel back, but neglects to make sure of how, so the Finn take her soul and put it in another body that can already channel. She gets back to the westlands and recieves a summons from the DO, who then puts her in the mindtrap. If the DO resurected her, why would he make her strength less? Especially if he has her put in a mindtrap. Its like dulling a sword. Saying he did this to punish her is saying the DO is an idiot, since the mindtrap is by far punishment enough and you dont make a weapon weaker than it is if you want to use it. That's why Cyndane says the woman was even stronger than she was before her time with the Finn, not before the Great Lord's punishment or something like that.<br /><br />So, the DO can ressurect his followers, the Finn aren't hunters, they are just so different from humans they might as well be evil, as per Birgitte.


created: 2002-10-06 22:12:41
subject: <b>legends</b>
body:
In some mythology the skinning of people is a way to take their power from them and take it for yourself if it is done whilst they are alive.  The most modern example of literature written with this theme is I think the Terry Goodkind Sword of Truth series, but it was not an original idea that Terry had.<br />My point is that Jordan may bring this idea into play in the future.<br />Also the Finn are collectors of sorts, and perhaps the foxes collect power or life energy or something that they get by skinning people.<br />Just a thought though


created: 2002-10-07 07:21:13
subject: <b>Re: Evil or not</b>
body:
I put this on the MB when this came up, but I thought I'd rehash it here as its come up again.  There seems to be some confusion here about the difference between amoral and evil.  <br /><br />People blithely stating that 'surely hunting people for skin means they are evil' are completely missing the point and context of Birgitte's words.  She doesn't simply say 'they are not evil', she says 'they are so different from humans that they might as well be evil'.  <br /><br />In nature we often see animals toy with, maim, and kill, other animals (often for no reason than sport.  At least the finns use their skins for something!) but we don't see that as evil.  We recognise that nature has no 'moral code' of the sort humans have, so we don't call it evil.  Surely Birgitte's words mean that the Finn's are similar to this. They have such a different moral code to humans that their actions would SEEM evil to any human, but are not acting from a specifically evil motive.  <br /><br />In other words, to blithely label their hunting humans for skins evil completely ignores what Birgitte has actually said about them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's like that old saying: A conservative is a liberal who's been attacked by aliens</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 08:23:17
subject: <b>animal skin?</b>
body:
I'm not sure about this, but I just got an idea.<br />Isn't it possible that in Finn country there are humanlike animals?<br />After all, some of us wear snake leather and foxhides...<br />What do you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Engeltje <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I'm not a guru or a sage. I'm a storyteller. The only times I get disturbed is when I find people who seem to be taking this too seriously.&quot; - Robert Jordan <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 13:13:50
subject: <b>Albo, you are missing the point.</b>
body:
By your logic, Birgitte would say, &quot;Trollocs and Fades aren't evil, they are just bred in such a way that they have a bloodlust and have a desire to hunt humans or anything else that breathes. They aren't evil, not the way the Shadow is evil, they are just so different from humans they might as well be evil.&quot;<br /><br />WRONG<br /><br />Here is your logic flaw.<br /><br />1. You aren't looking at Birgitte's character. She is not a warrior poet, she is not a philosopher. She is by her own admission a simple soldier. Look at the way she acts and reacts throughout the story. What you are saying just doesn't fit in that character. Here is what those lines mean --&quot;The Finn aren't out to get you, but there society is so different, there system of morals and social laws so strange, that you can get yourself in a lot of trouble with them very easily, you could even end up dead. They aren't evil the way the Shadow is, they are just so different that they might as well be.&quot; But she is a soldier, so she simplifies all that into what she said in the book.<br /><br />2. Looking at nature is a logic flaw in the first place. Okay, you want to say cat and mouse, cat is hunter, etc etc. Cat's not evil, just different. I would agree. Now here is what your logic should have been. If you take a me from America and put me in the middle of a tribe of savages in some jungle someplace (I am making up said tribe, lets just call them the Finn tribe for now). Lets also say that this Finn tribe takes outsiders (me), sets me loose in the jungle, then hunts me and the victor gets to wear my hide for a trophy... well, I believe most people would call that evil. Now if they had specific laws that I didn't understand but could break very easily, and I broke several of these laws and they executed me, then maybe I would say they aren't evil, just very very different. Its the same with the Finn. The difference is that humans can talk and negotiate with the Finn, we can't with a cat. With no language barrier, morals become a much bigger issue than cats and dogs.


created: 2002-10-07 14:02:10
subject: <b>Here's a thought...</b>
body:
Suppose rather than hunting people in T'A'R, the Eelfinns are getting the skins from some of the people they grant wishes to. After all, there is a price for three wishes, that Mat learned the hard way, so perhaps those who make a bad bargain with them become their new summer wardrobe.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-07 14:32:18
subject: <b>Some problems and questions</b>
body:
I've already posted these on the message board, but figured I might as well repost them here.<br /><br />1.  The skin is pulled off the victim in TAR.  Things in TAR don't transfer to the real world.  If that were the case, you could just imagine whatever you felt like, and pull it back into the real world with you.  If they rip the skin off of the person, how do they take it back to Finnland?<br /><br />2.  If the Finns get the skin, why is a shadow taking it?  Finns don't rip the skin off of the noble, some shadow on the ceiling does.  Do the shadows work for the Finns?  If so, why, how?<br /><br />3.  Why does the shadow take the skin in one solid piece if the Finns only use strips of flesh?  It seemed like the skin being pulled off whole was of some significance.  If you're going to just make it into strips, why not just rip it off in strips?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">www.scienceofshape.com<br />www.whysohostile.com<br />www.ancillarymusic.com<br />www.scienceofshape.com/sidetracked/</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 18:27:30
subject: <b>Maybe..</b>
body:
It was one of those loose Nightmares in TAR When Egwene takes someof to the tower in TAR they walk into one...maybe the shadow that steals the noble's skin was one that was way smaller


created: 2002-10-07 18:34:44
subject: <b>Lanfear's Strength</b>
body:
In the climax of WH, Lanfear comments that Alivia is stronger than she herself was before she was with the Finns.  She then concludes that since that is impossible, Alivia must have an angreal.  This implies that Lanfear had somehow maxed out the ability in women during the AoL.  It seems logical then, that <b>any artificial strength enhancement</b> (such as an angreal implant?) <b>would be gone were she to be transmigrated to a new body.</b>  Therefore, it's possible that she did in fact die, and the DO had to ressurect her.<br /><br />And remember, it does not matter whether the new body is able to channel or not, whether is is male/female, how strong it can channel.  Shaidar Haran's revelation to Osan'gar in the prologue to LoC shows that the channeling ability lies within the soul/spirit, otherwise, Aran'gar would be unable to channel saidin.  Therefore, Lanfear would have remained at her previous strength level in a transmigration to a new body unless her previous ability was artificially enhanced.


created: 2002-10-07 20:00:06
subject: <b>On that last point...</b>
body:
I thought Alivia DID have an angreal. <br /><br />But...remember when Graendal was getting all ready to school Cyndane and Moghedien?  Well, we knew Graendal wasn't in Lanfear's class before...but she was fully confident she could take care of them now (and did)<br /><br />I think the Forsaken would know enough to recognize use of *angreals by others.


created: 2002-10-08 11:45:04
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
Lanfear skinned Kadere.<br /><br /><br />Warlord of Gore<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Warlord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />Join the WASPT. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />You might get a free crowbar.<br /><br /><font color="dark orange"><b>C</b></font><font color="orange">y</font><font color="dark orange">a</font> <font color="orange">K</font><font color="dark orange">o</font><font color="orange">r</font><font color="dark orange">y</font><font color="black">.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="green">Terribly </font><font color="brown">Lucky</font> <font color="green">And</font> <font color="brown">UnDeserving</font> <font color="green">Warder</font> <font color="brown">to</font> <font color="green">~BELA~</font></font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Member of the wotmania Starcraft Clan. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 06:19:49
subject: <b>hallways and shadows</b>
body:
What if the hallways in the dream were a representation of the pattern.  The shadows could represent the DO influence on the pattern.  The criss-crossing of the hallways could be a representation of how the worlds are woven to create an even greater pattern as was told  to Egwene in GH.(?)  Just my 2 cents.


created: 2002-10-11 12:10:06
subject: <b>I have an idea...</b>
body:
What if they're not connected at all?  Why would they be?<br /><br />The man Perrin saw dying was a plot device to show that the wolf dream is real and dangerous.  End of story.<br /><br />The skins that the 'Finn wear are there to make them creepy.  Not everything has to come from somewhere.<br /><br />Sheesh.  They really need to put a new book out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 01:43:40
subject: <b>The request and the price</b>
body:
In Mat's visit through the second doorway the Finn say to him that he was &quot;wise to ask for leavetaking, but foolish not to set the price.&quot; or something along those lines. The clear implication to this in my mind is that if you don't make that one of your requests then there's a pretty good chance that you will end up as a nice studded vest. The fox people also seem to have a very tricky nature, in that they will give you what you ask for, but not necessarily what you thought you were asking for, this couyld also lead to some people ending up as apparel if the request is made poorly.<br />Secondly, both the Aelfinn and the Elfinn seem to derive some sort of sustinence, or at the least pleasure, from rummaging through the experiences of their visitors; such is the extent of the payoff from this that they will allow people to ask questions or favours without any payment except this rummaging. It seems to me that if they could leave their world and hunt people in other worlds there would be no need to offer this service, they could just do their rummaging before they rip peoples skin off.<br /><br />[: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Shooganooga<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 16:34:11
subject: <b>one more thing forgotten..</b>
body:
remember how the finns give people things?<br />well i think that they are at an angle with the real world so that they are part real and part TAR.. how this is made i don't know.. but lets say that this is so.. Maybe they have something in them that connects them (the finns) stronger with TAR than the people (still with me?) If this would be so it would be easy for them to imagine things and get them like in TAR, while all humans who did this would fail. This is think is how they can give things to people, anything. and this would also explain why the tower of ghenji (or however it is spelled) would be hard to leave if you entered through TAR, it would mean that you couldn't just imagine yourself somewhere else and be there.<br /><br />Now comes the question how this man slayer could get in and out of the tower - Well he, I think, has made a deal with them, or maybe he has visited them and asked for something that could give him as much influence on the TAR part of Finnland as the finns have, or maybe he he didn't even enter it.. or maybe.......<br /><br />well this at least explains a few things from my point of view.<br /><br />And one more thing.. someone before me said something about the finns being not evil just like we aren't evil for wearing snakeskin boots or something.. and then someone else told him to go screw himself or something because his logic was poor, well i think that he was quite right, the finns are after all a whole differnt race. and they maybe don't see themselves as evil for wearing human skin...and i wouldn't say they are.. besides trollocs are bread for one singel purpose - to serv the shadow - so that makes them evil as the shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">blood and bloody keyboard<br />- i did spell it right, but my keyboard didn't..</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 15:08:05
subject: <b>But I thought...</b>
body:
Lots of good discussion here. However, I always thought this  was Perrin seeing where Corlan Dashiva came from. This fits with the man Perrin sees as being from one of the borderlands. I don't recall any good descriptions of how Sharans dress, but I didn't get the impression that they wear &quot;coats and breeches.&quot; <br /><br />As I see it, the &quot;shadow&quot; is a metaphor for &quot;The Dark One&quot;, and having your skin ripped off of you is a metaphor for having your identity taken. *shrug* I think Perrin's dream and the &quot;resurrection&quot; of Ag. &amp; Balth. happen about the same time, given the nature of Jordan's time sequencing after &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot; was published (that is, just because book B follows book A, it doesn't mean that all the events in book B happen after all the events in book A).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 21:14:47
subject: <b>Finnland/T'A'R</b>
body:
I just wanted to say that i agree about Finnland being accessable through T'A'R, or that its at a right angle to Randland (sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> ). I think that connection will play a vital role in the future (Moiraine...). I'm a BIG fan of the Finns playing a major role soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-20 12:49:08
subject: <b>agreement with Joe al Holz</b>
body:
Well, If Aginor and Balthamel were resurrected at around the same time as Perrins dream, what if this dream was what happened to the noble when his body was taken over to be used by either one?  The shadow is the DO, and the skinning is taking the identity away, like Joe al Holz said.  Makes sense in logic if the timing is correct.


created: 2003-06-25 16:37:24
subject: <b>I got it !</b>
body:
You can pull people into your own dreams so you have control, but it's evil.<br />You can physically step into TAR, but it's evil (you lose a part of your soul)<br />TAR and dreams are very close, So mabye the Finns can physically pull people INTO TAR. It would definitly be evil, but a different KIND of evil. Birgitte said that they were evil but a different evil from the DO, so it fits.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My sig got old and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 12:15:28
subject: <b>*restricted* in T'A'R</b>
body:
What I find REALLY interesting is that there are some places one cannot enter in T'A'R.  I can't remember exactly where it is mentioned (I'm at work, so no access to my books), but I believe it is in tSR somewhere when a person mentions that Ogier Stedding, Rhuidean (before being smashed apart by Rand v. Asmo) and maybe another place or two cannot be entered in T'A'R.  It was either Birgitte, a Wise One, or maybe even Verin (though I doubt this last claim).<br /><br />Yet the Tower of Ghenjei CAN be entered in T'A'R.  Very intriguing.  Very... suggestive.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek and end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-16 12:28:59
subject: <b>I hate coming up with titles</b>
body:
Bane_of_Ignorance just wanted to tell you that you're right, Seana, an Aiel Wise One said that Rhuidean, Ogier stedding and a few others can't be entered in T'A'R and that what happens in these places cannot be seen.  <br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-03-11 09:43:11
subject: <b>A couple of thoughts</b>
body:
On Finnland. <br />I have always invisioned Finnland either eel or ael as kind of like an M.C.Escher painting. I think this because of the descripions we get from Mat's PoV. <br />tSR page250(pb) &quot;Into the Doorrway&quot;<br />Mat desribes his walk with the Aelfinn.<br /><br />Through one circular window he saw three tall silvery spires curving in tword each other so their points all aimed ant the same spot. They were not visible from the next window, three paces away, but a fe minutes later, after he and his guide rounded enough curves that he had to be looking in another direction, he saw them again. He tried telling himself these were three different spires, but between them and him was one of those fan-shaped trees with a dangling broken branch, a tree that had been in the same spot the first time. After his thirdsight of those spires and the strange tree with the broken branch, this time ten paces farther on but on the other side of the hallway, he stopped looking at what lay outside at all. <br /><br />(these spires bear stiking resemblance to the AS ter'angreal and the one the Wo's use in Rhuidean, don't they? But thats a theory for another time)<br /><br />Mat seems to be traveling in a circle here but not.<br />tSR page400(pb) Rhuidean<br /><br />Mats walk with the Eelfin. I am not going to rewrite the book here, but here is what he sees basically.<br /><br />He enters and sees the Eelfin and he takes him trough a five sided doorway. He is led through a hallway and, &quot;It seemed to strech on forever, fading into a murky distance, broken at intervals by more of the great five sided doorways.&quot; At this point mat follows the Eelfin to his destination, but through each of these doorways he sees the exact room he just left. &quot;Beyond star-shaped black columns, a twisted redstone doorway stood on a dull glassy white floor where dust showed the marks of one set of boots comming from the Ter'angreal, led tword the corridor by prints of narrow bare feet.&quot; He also looks back and the hallway insead of going back to the doorway he just left seem to go back as far as he could see.<br /><br /><br />This time mat seems to be traveling in a straight line but not.<br /><br />M.C. Eshcer is famous for making pictures that seem wrong to the mind. This is how i picture Finnland. I am going to use a D&amp;D analogy here(yes I know how taboo) But if you have ever played D&amp;D this reminds me of an extra dimentional space. A place where things are different than the real. Take whats called a bag of holding, it looks like a normal bag lets say a burlap sack on the outside. On the inside is a space where you could put an amazing amount of stuff. Like taking a trashbag and putting a car in it. SO leads to my theory on the Tower of Ghengi. tToG is Finnland. Where both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn reside. <br /><br />Now from Perrin's PoV<br />tSR page 462(pb) tToG<br />Perrin in the wof dream (T'A'r) follows Slayer to tToG and it seems that Slayer entered. Perrinn wants to follow him in and Hopper shows up to stop him. This is where Perrin finds out that Slayer is here in the flesh(and we know that is evil). This is also the point where Birgitte shows up and gives us important information.<br />&quot;I only came to warn you. despite the presripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghengei is hard enough to leave in the world of men, Here it is all but impossible. ....&quot;<br /><br />To me this means that entering the tToG in T'A'R is a bad thing, and if you are going to enter and leave it is better to do so in the waking world. So I don't think that whoever goes to &quot;rescue&quot; Moiraine is going to enter from the dream.<br /><br />I think that there is a whole world inside tToG. But hey i might be crazy.<br /><br />Also I would like to point out that there were symbols on the doorways. Curved lines ont the one in the SoT, and 3 triangles on the one in Rhuidean. I think the way to enter tToG is to use the portal stones, because the symbols on the door make me think of the ones on the PS for other worlds.<br /><br />Just my 2 coppers<br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 11:49:17
subject: <b>I always thot the man was from tear</b>
body:
I believe reading sumweres that the nobles from tear dont like peasants at all and a peasant from far off would be even worse. Also it is said that siuan has a clipped accent(i think).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-15 20:03:02
subject: <b>Wait...</b>
body:
I always thought that guy was Mordeth, and the Shadow was Mashendar(sp?) i don't know though, thats just what i hap always assumed


created: 2002-10-08 12:44:53
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
Much as Burr said, the Moraine part is not really that convincing and could very well ahve been just slight inconsistancies when writing it. <br />Although there do seem to be alot of inconsistances as you pointed out, there has been no indication of the use of alternative worlds except in that one instance and when going to falme. It would take a substancially large amount of time to get into the books that this has occured and to what point it has. Something I think even RJ with his subtle mind would not do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 13:12:47
subject: <b>The Simplest Theory</b>
body:
Maybe before jumping to mirror universes you should remember a very important point that a lot of people seem to forget. RJ is a human being. He has written thousands of pages involving hundreds of characters. Mistakes could just be that. Inconsistencies are when he forgets, just like Sheriam&#8217;s Warder. The simplest theory is usually correct. If RJ crafted every word of every book to the detail that some people think, we&#8217;d be waiting decades for them !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 14:03:52
subject: <b>I agree wholeheartly with Dardis</b>
body:
Robert Jordan is not perfect! He is an extremely good story-teller but he makes mistakes like every normal human being!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 14:46:04
subject: <b>Yep just plain old mistakes</b>
body:
Some of those mistakes are very shocking to me- such as the Min/Birgitte connection... however, they are just that- mistakes.  What can we do? I didn't ever catch it, and I probably never would have, so they aren't that egregious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 17:14:44
subject: <b>Great insight, though...</b>
body:
The inconsistencies are just that: inconsistencies. With an epic like the Wheel of Time on such a monumental scale, who, but the Creator (and the DO?), could ever keep it all in memory? RJ keeps notes on the MAJOR (what is major is in his own view) things of the stories. He's human and to err is human. Even the Dragon Reborn cannot be perfect and makes mistakes. If, as RJ says, all of the major female characters in WoT are based on his wife, then all of the major men in WoT are based on himself. And look at how many mistakes these male characters make!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 17:33:48
subject: <b>Darkfriend Fain/Liandrin</b>
body:
Fain has been a DF for over 40 years and has been given a pretty important assignment: hunting the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />Liandrin is also pretty high up in the Black Ajah councils, leading the 13 who murder/steal/run to Illian. She also was officially a Red, which implies she was out in the world a lot hunting men who could channel.<br /><br />As the Dragon Reborn is by definition a man who can channel, it seems quite possible that Fain and Liandrin have met before looking for the DR, so this doesn't disprove the theory but does remove the necessity that Moiraine was the only AS that Fain would recognize.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 18:15:45
subject: <b>Good work!</b>
body:
Well, just like everyone else, I think RJ's mistakes are just that...mistakes.  But I have to congratulate u on a fantastic research of those mistakes.  I don't believe I've seen a more comprehensive collection of his mistakes.  I doubt RJ would like them all pointed out, but I myself didn't catch most of them after reading the series 6-8 times, so that's fantastic work!  And who knows?  U may even be right...but i sincerely hope not, i would HATE that explanation!


created: 2002-10-08 18:25:56
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Very impressive...but I have a hard time believing it.  I RJ gave out no-prizes (a la Marvel Comics) you'd be first in line though.


created: 2002-10-08 18:35:06
subject: <b>FAQ Writing the Story</b>
body:
I knew a lot of people would disagree on the evil Moiraine aspect of my theory. I probably didn't present it very well, but I thought her statement about inducing the boys to go was pretty damning evidence. So far as I could see, she never said anything to any of them to influence them to go, but the subsequent events sure had them going exactly where she wanted/expected them to. That was one of the reasons I included the part where Lan tells him he can leave any time he wants. The plan was already in motion by then, and he was not going anywhere except where he had been prodded.<br /><br /> I'm a little surprised that most of the posters so far think that RJ would be capable of so many glaringly obvious inconsistencies with some of his major characters, such as Perrin and Egwene. One of the reasons I started looking for all those &quot;mistakes&quot;, was from an RJ interview that is listed here at WoTmania, under the &quot;FAQ Writing the Story.&quot; He said there were some typos and a few things that should have been editted out, but as to the &quot;inconsistencies&quot;, we are not reading the story right. If someone has a better explanation for the inconsistencies other than calling them mistakes, please post it.<br /><br /> A little more Light<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 19:19:31
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
Sorry, you did a lot of work, but I refuse to read so much into little things, because as much as I like RJs books, he isn't a mystical genius that never gets things wrong. I think you should have posted the same theory with the title 'RJ's stuff-ups'.<br /><br />PS I thought that those girls were Perrin's cousins, close cousins maybe, but does it ever specifically say that they are his sisters?<br />


created: 2002-10-08 20:14:15
subject: <b>Half mistakes, half clues</b>
body:
I think that most likely, considering that RJ said we were not reading it right, the list you have made is about half errors and half clues. Picking out the clues is of course the fun part <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />, but not none of the discrepancies points definitvely to the alternate world theory. <br />Manipulating three teenage boys is not going to be too difficult for someone who makes 'thrones dance like puppets', or however the saying goes.<br />Very well researched and thought out theory, but I dont buy that RJ would pull a stunt like that, because then nothing would be certain, i.e. dead characters could have really only died in the 'other world'.


created: 2002-10-08 20:42:12
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
In my tDR paperback I looked up the quote of Perrin talking to Min and in here it is &quot;Uh...Min, you know I like you.  I like you but....  Uh...you sort of remind me of my sisters.  I mean you....&quot;  Maybe RJ found his mistake and corrected it?  It was copywritted in 1991 if that helps.


created: 2002-10-08 22:31:00
subject: <b>Thinking Outside the Void.</b>
body:
First off, I agree with the theory presented here by <i>Light in the Night</i>. I did help form it a little bit after all. <br /><br />Secondly, I don't feel Jordan is perfect, yet not a hair-brained woolhead either. If he's planned this story out more than <b><i>TEN YEARS</i></b>(check his interviews) before putting anything formal down on paper then many of these 'mistakes' cannot possibly <i>be</i> mistakes. Perrin's misstatement about his sisters may be due to reeditting, in my mind by a TOR editor whom caught this passage and felt it must be simply wrong; therefore changing the line to saying Perrin mentions his sisters. I feel Jordan wrote it as Perrin saying &quot;Uh...Min, you know I like you. I like you, but...Uh...I never had a sister, but if I did, I....I mean, you...&quot;. If it was originally written saying Perrin mentions his sisters, why would this version exsist? It should never had needed changing...if it was a mistake. Jordan should know his main characters like the back of his hand, in my mind there's no way he should slip up and accidently forget Perrin has sisters.<br /><br />This also applies to Verin knowing Loial before the meeting in The Two Rivers, Min recognizing Birgitte and Bayle Domon being previously acquainted with Thom. These are all in my mind too large of mistakes to be accidental. Yes, there are some that seem mistakes, like Nyneave referring to Julian as 'Justin'(pg. 463 ACoS) but not the above mentioned.<br /><br />As for the mirror world theory being palpable, here is a beautiful hint at such a thing. Pg. 29 EotW - Moiraine's POV speaking to Rand and Mat.<br /><br />&quot;As the Wheel of Time turns,&quot; Moiraine said, half to herself and with a distant look in her eyes, &quot;places wear many names. Men wear many names, many faces. Different faces, but always the same man. Yet no one knows the Great Pattern the Wheel weaves, or even the Pattern of an Age. We can only watch, and study, and hope.&quot;<br /><br />Okay, you can say it's too far out there, he doesn't have enough time to explain it thoroughly but why else would he put this passage in phrasing it as he did? It's there to <b>foreshadow</b>. Moiraine may be speaking of past Ages but I think Jordan is hinting at something greater. The possibility that there is much more to this story than meets the eye. Thus, ' We can only <b>watch, and study, and hope</b>.&quot;' <br /><br />It may be too much for many to grasp, or wish to give true thought to but I think it's very possible, explains much and would be a stoke of genius on Robert Jordan's part. I mean come on, it's a fantasy story and this is a brilliant twist!


created: 2002-10-08 23:06:25
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I kinda like the idea of this theory...though, i think that it is more due to the fact that *and don't put me on a spike for this* that RJ is just human and has trouble keeping up with about 50 million details. But it is an interesting theory at any rate. I like.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 00:41:31
subject: <b>The sisters thing...</b>
body:
In later versions of the book, Perrin actually tells Min she reminds him of his sisters. It was corrected because, gasp, it was a mistake. There are plenty of examples like this. There are too many Warders at Fal Dara - Leane does not have one. Three of Liandrin's bevy are identified as White; one is later changed to Grey. RJ is human. He makes mistakes. They are corrected, sometimes; others not. Why, precisely, would he muck with the story this way? What value would it add? Which is the real world and which the mirror? There is no POINT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 01:49:13
subject: <b>Mistakes</b>
body:
These are mistakes, not a plot device.<br /><br />The site home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/WH_FAQ/ has a section titled &quot;Missteps(Errors along the way)&quot;.  This has many more mistakes listed.<br /><br />RJ has admitted to mistakes and many are corrected in later printings.<br />


created: 2002-10-09 01:55:06
subject: <b>who Fain could know</b>
body:
we don't necesarily know he was pulled out by an Aes Sedai, unless there's something I missed. I alays thought it was Ingtar, and he thought it was Changu and his friend. If there is something I missed, then I guess this is a pointless response.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 06:19:27
subject: <b>Thank You Eshelmon</b>
body:
I took a look at that site, and you are right. There were quite a few mistakes that were found and later corrected. However, the only one that I listed that was changed, was the one about Perrin and his sisters. OTOH, it provided me with one thing that I had heard about, but missed. In TGH, in the chapter titled &quot;Summoned&quot;, Moiraine is wearing her Great Serpent ring on her right hand. In the EotW and TDR, she is wearing it on her left hand. <br /> To me, it is more confirmation of my theory of a mirror world BA Moiraine, to you, and others, I'm sure it is just another mistake.<br /><br /> I don't know what point Ruriha Sedai was trying to make about extra warders. The WT trains warders, and I doubt that all of them are bonded to an AS. I figure since they are the best fighters, they could be used for any number of things, such as guarding the Amyrlin on a trip, or going with AS to capture a false dragon. I don't think being bonded is required.<br /><br /> As for bringing this in late to the story or mucking it up, it appeared to me he started it in the second book. The first one was meant as a stand-alone, in case it didn't sell. And he did tell us about these mirror worlds with the same people in them. Should we be surprised or mad if he uses something he told us about? I think he's been hiding it in plain sight and we just didn't, or won't, see it.<br /><br />BTW, someone should notify that other site and tell them about Alviarin's letter to Rand that Egwene didn't remember reading, they didn't have that &quot;mistake&quot; listed.<br /><br />a little more Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 06:32:10
subject: <b>:o</b>
body:
must re-read all those books, too many mistakes...<br /><br />i dont know about mirror world, but maybe ishamael used compulsion on moirane???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 07:23:35
subject: <b>Very interesting...</b>
body:
I don't know if I agree with you, but this is definitely worth thinking about.<br /><br />About the Moiraine thread, I think she could be ruthless and devious enough to let Fain go, and ensure the dagger and the horn were stolen, to ensure that Rand would fulfill his destiny, without necessarily being black.  Remember that Suian seems ambivalent about saving Mat's life when their plans go awry and he blows the horn instead of Rand.<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-09 12:54:14
subject: <b>Undecided</b>
body:
I don't know if I can agree with this theory or not, but it would explain a discrepancy with Taim.<br /><br />When meeting Rand and Bashere for the first time, Bashere doesn't recognize him. Taim replies that he shaved his beard because it was hot. A little while later, Taim teaches Rand the trick of not feeling the heat.<br /><br />A minor discrepancy, and it could be on the list of mistakes that someone else mentioned, but I thought it would be applicable to this theory.


created: 2002-10-09 12:58:13
subject: <b>Moiraine a DF?</b>
body:
Well, I've always had my suspicions about Moiraine. However, it seems to me more likely that if she did indeed free Fain, she was serving her own adgenda, not that of the DO. There's just too much written from her perspective for RJ to have successfully hidden it if she were BA.<br /><br />As for the &quot;errors&quot;, well, I agree with the guy who said &quot;half errors, half clues&quot;. I've written a novel (200 pages), and am currently revising it for publication. Believe me, there are zillions of inconsistancies, and working them out is like ironing a cloth: every time you smooth a few creases out, another one pops up. With something on the scale of what RJ has written, we should expect a few minor errors here and there. It's not like these are major plot holes. We just have a few inconsistancies, which is quite understandable.<br /><br />And another brief note: Maybe Domon was surprised to see Thom since he was in town when Thom &quot;died&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-iluv2act<br /><br />Actor, singer, and ladies' man extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 16:20:07
subject: <b>OK...</b>
body:
my 2c..<br /><br />I think there's two separate issues, one of which is Moiraine and the other the other &quot;mistakes&quot;. On the second, I agree with the majority of the opinions above. I don't think having an ongoing mirror world across 7(?) novels is a very likely idea. Occam's razor would suggest they are RJ errors. It would be as disappointing as ending the series &quot;..and then Rand woke up. It had all been a dream&quot;. Not going to happen.<br /><br />The evidence you put forward regarding Moiraine seems different. It's a consistent idea, and it fits the facts well. Moiraine wouldn't be wholly black though, compulsion by Ishamael would explain her occasional abberrant behaviour, without creating the need to justify her behaviour when she helps the DR, which I thought was the weakest area of your argument. <br /><br />Anyway, the occassional well written theory like this one are the reason I keep revisiting. Nice one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 16:59:24
subject: <b>Talk about complications!</b>
body:
Well researched theory.  Still I guess I have to go with the human mistake explanation.  I'm actually quite surprised that I hadn't picked up more from Jordan considering just how long and complex his work is.  I don't remember at the moment if we ever had a Moiraine POV that categorically disproved her as Black Ajah but I don't think she is. Your first point about the explanation given by Selene concerning the alternate realities though could possibly explain why we haven't heard from Moiraine yet.  We don't know exactly where she is or how much time is and how much time is passing for her in relation to the main theatre of action.


created: 2002-10-09 17:15:10
subject: <b>easy explination</b>
body:
aside from the &quot;to err is human&quot; comments the min/birghette(sp?) thing can be explained with two facts, min probably didn't connect bir. to elayne, especially as a warder and most importantly, as is stated several times throughout the books min doesn't always see the auras and symbols.


created: 2002-10-09 17:47:28
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
I think they are just mistakes. But, OTOH, if this were true then the mirror world Moraine (who didn't die) could have balefired Asmodean. this would explain the similarity to her BF'ing Bel'al.<br /><br />Thantos


created: 2002-10-09 18:31:19
subject: <b>Further 'Evil Min' Proof?</b>
body:
The one about Min not recognizing Birgitte in WH may not be a mistake, but <b>a clue</b> indicating she is being manipulated - possibly compulsed - by someone (probably Moridin) since people under the influence of compulsion have been known to forget things...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-09 18:42:28
subject: <b>Nope, all explainable...</b>
body:
The whole Moiraine thing:<br /><br />Fain would have been to countless Darkfriend socials and been able to identify Darkfriends from there. Also it would be very strange if every Aes Sedai didn't go down to see the so-special Darkfriend in the Dungeon. <br /><br />We never know what Moiraine did or didn't tell people. This point is the weakest though. <br /><br />Moiraine wanted them to take the Horn to Illian. If the Horn was retaken they would have to head south eventually in order to get there. She also knew about the Dark Prophesy that Verin read to the Amrylin and if she was able to figure it out as well as Verin did then she would know they would head south. <br /><br />Fain wanted to dagger. Moiraine wouldn't have to get him to take it. He would take it with whatever chance he could.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>We also know that Moiraine is gone from Fal Dara at the time of the DFS. Plus the fact that in tDR, when they arrive in Illian, Moiraine leaves Easing the Badger, and returns a short time later, with the knowledge that Sammael is ruling there. Who told her this? No one in this age knows what any of the Forsaken look like. Only a DF would have known. The same thing would have been true in Tear, with Be'lal. </b></font><br /><br />You know, we didn't see Thom around that time either... As for Sammael... it wouldn't be hard to figure out that a Forsaken was in town if you knew what to look for. As for the identity, well Sammael has quite a few physical features that identify him if you knew what to look for. He also has some personality things that could help ID him too. We know Moiraine did some Forsaken research in tGH. But it could just be that people were using his name more than normal...<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Other Inconsistencies<br /><br />In TDR, &#8220;The Hunt Begins,&#8221; HB edit., p. 63, Perrin is talking to Min. &quot;Uh...Min, you know I like you. I like you, but...Uh...I never had a sister, but if I did, I....I mean, you...&quot;<br /><br />That contradicts what we see in TSR, &#8220;Beyond the Oak,&#8221; HB edit., p. 336: &quot;With Faile holding his head beneath her breasts, Perrin lost track of how long he cried. Images of his family flashed in his thoughts, his father smiling as he showed him how to use a bow, his mother singing while she spun wool, Adora and Deselle teasing him when he shaved the first time, Paet wide-eyed at a gleeman during Sunday long ago.&quot; <br /><br />It appears this Perrin has not one sister, but two.<br /></b></font><br /><br />Perrin is a little flustered at this time. I think that he himself doesn't realize what he is trying to say. It's perfectly normal. Most guys can't think on their feet when they think a girl likes them and they are trying to get out of it.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TFoH, &#8220;News Comes To Cairhien,&#8221; HB edit., p. 609, Moiraine has just delivered two letters to Rand, one from Elaida and one from Alviarin. He reads the letters, then hands them to Moiraine, who hands them to Egwene. &#8220;&#8216;She must have heard about your swelled head,&#8217; Egwene said softly. He did not think he had been meant to hear. Shaking her head, she said more loudly, &#8216;This doesn't sound like Alviarin at all.&#8217;<br />&#8220;&#8216;It is her hand.&#8217; Moiraine said. &#8216;What do you make of it, Rand?&#8217;&#8221;<br /><br />In TcoS, &#8220;A Pair of Silverpike,&#8221; HB edit., p. 178, Egwene is talking to Leane. &#8220;&#8216;He says he has a letter from her.&#8217; She could still see Rand gloating over receiving letters from Elaida and Alviarin both, back before she left Cairhien. &#8216;Maybe her ambitions make her think she can replace Elaida with him on her side. That's if she really wrote it; if it exists. He thinks he's clever, Leane - maybe he is - but he doesn't believe he needs anyone.&#8217;&#8221;<br /></b></font><br /><br />But if Egwene thinks the letter is from someone else and not Alviarin that could explain her words.<br /><br />&quot;He says he has a letter <i>from her</i>&quot; (He says the letter he has is from her)<br />&quot;That's if she really wrote it (Egwene doesn't believe it is from her); if it exists (not the letter itself (Egwene knows there is a letter) but a letter with above mentioned characteristics)&quot;<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TFoH, &#8220;Choices,&#8221; HB edit., p. 624, Rand meets Moiraine in the hallway, before they head down to the docks. &#8220;&#8216;More letters?&#8217; he said. One bore his name in an elegant hand that he recognized immediately. &#8216;From you Moiraine?&#8217; The other carried Thom Merrilin's name. Both had been sealed with blue wax, apparently with her Great Serpent ring, impressed with the image of the snake biting its own tail.<br /><br />In TLoC, &#8220;Courage to Strengthen,&#8221; HB edit., p. 460, Rand comes to the camp of the Band of the Red Hand, and talks to Mat. &#8220;&#8216;Thom Merrilin should be with Elayne.&#8217; Rand produced a letter from his pocket, folded and sealed. &#8216;See that he gets this.&#8217; Shoving the letter into Mat's hands, he hurriedly left the tent.&#8221; Skip down a paragraph. &#8220;Still, it was no concern of his. He turned the letter over in his hands. Thom's name was written in a feminine hand; the seal was one he did not recognize, a spreading tree topped with a crown.&#8221; </b></font><br /><br />OK, this is RJ's fault but it still has a back door of sorts. It never says both were sealed with the Aes Sedai ring, only that both were sealed with blue wax. Although that really doesn't cut it with the explanation. I think RJ just made a mistake.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TGH, &#8220;Wolfbrother,&#8221; HB edit., p. 195, Verin catches up to Mat, Perrin and the Shienarans. &#8220;&#8216;Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,&#8217; Verin announced with a satisfied smile. &#8216;She thought you might need me.&#8217;<br /><br />However, in TGH, &#8220;What Was Meant To Be,&#8221; HB edit., p. 572, we see this: &#8220;&#8216;I did not send Verin.&#8217; Moiraine frowned. &#8216;She did that on her own.&#8217;&#8221;<br /><br />These two statements have come under much debate. Is it AS double-talk or not? You decide. </b></font><br /><br /><br />&quot;Moiraine sent me...for a pizza. I got it and delivered it then decided to catch up to you guys.&quot;<br /><br />or<br /><br />Moiraine: &quot;Someone really needs to keep an eye on Rand but I'm so busy... I wish I could send someone...oh well..&quot;<br />Verin *thinks to self*: &quot;Hmmm.... I'm someone...&quot;<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TGH, Verin and the Shienarans meet up with Rand, Hurin, and Loial in Cairhien. She goes to the party at Lord Barthanes with Rand, Loial and Ingtar. They ride to stedding Tsofu together, and go through the Portal Stones to Toman Head together.<br /><br />But in TSR, &#8220;Assurances,&#8221; HB edit., p. 345, Mistress al'Vere takes Perrin, Loial, Faile and the Aiel to meet Verin and Alanna in the old sick house, and makes introductions. &#8220;&#8216;It's quite all right, Mistress al'Vere,&#8217; Verin interrupted in a soothing tone. &#8216;You did exactly the correct thing. Perrin is in the right hands, now. Also I will enjoy the chance to learn more about the Aiel, and it is always a pleasure to talk with an Ogier. I will pick your brain, Loial. I have found some fascinating things in Ogier books.&#8217; Loial gave her a pleased smile; anything to do with books seemed to please him.</b></font><br /><br /><br />That line wasn't for the reader or Loial. It was for Marin al'Vere who was still hanging about. If someone blurted that she already knew Loial well... oh well. Also lets look at how much time she actually spend with him:<br /><br />Trip to Cairhein - 0 days<br />In Cairhein - a few very busy days<br />On road to Stedding Tsofu - 1 day<br />Trip to Toman Head - 0 days<br />At Toman Head - a few days<br />After battle - she left with Mat almost immediately.<br /><br />So total she only had a few days time to talk to him and many of those days were very busy. She'd probably never had a quiet chance to pick his brain like she did at this time. I don't think there is any discrepance there. Her wording was a little awkward but the presence of Marin can explain that. She certainly wouldn't want Marin to find out where she knew Loial from.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TSR, &#8220;An Offer Refused,&#8221; HB edit., p. 554, Lanfear, disguised as Keille Shaogi, the peddler, is talking to Mat and Rand. &#8220;&#8216;Tell him, my Lord Dragon. I have a feeling you know something of the dangers of scorning a woman. That Aiel girl who follows you about, glaring. I hear you belong to another. Perhaps she feels scorned,&#8217;<br /><br />&#8216;I doubt it Mistress,&#8217; he said dryly. &#8216;Aviendha would plant a knife in my ribs if she believed I had thought of her that way.&#8217; <br /><br />In TFoH, &#8220;Choices,&#8221; HB edit., p. 629, Rand and co. are at the docks in Cairhien, and Lanfear has started her attack. &#8220;&#8216;One of them?&#8217; Lanfear snarled. &#8216;Which one of them is Aviendha?&#8217; Egwene threw her head back and wailed, eyes bulging, the world's agony shrieking from her mouth. &#8216;Which?&#8217; Aviendha rose on tiptoes, shuddering, howls chasing Egwene's as they climbed higher and higher.<br /><br />Lanfear had travelled across the waste, day after day, seeing Aviendha by Rand's side, had heard her talking about Elayne to Rand, knew her name even. And now she doesn't recognize her from Egwene? The height difference alone should have distinguished them apart, aside from the hair length and color.</b></font><br /><br /><br />I can see Lanfear memorizing Aiel names. Really. I could see her doing it if she knew there was a chance for competition but according to Rand, neither he nor Aviendha have interest.<br /><br />Also, Lanfear knows Egwene as the village girl. Not as Aiel. She has started dressing like them and Lanfear may not have taken the time (in her insane rage) to care enough to stop and try to figure it out.<br /><br />Keille didn't spend too much time around Rand. Lanfear wouldn't want Rand to get suspicious. Besides, Aviendha didn't open up to Rand at all until tFoH when Lanfear was busy.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TFoH, &#8220;To Teach And Learn,&#8221; HB edit., p. 592., Nynaeve, Elayne, Birgette and co. have arrived in Salidar. Nynaeve and Elayne have just come from meeting Sheriam and her council. Thom, Juilin and Uno are talking to them. &#8220;Birgette was leading Jaril and Seve to their mother, keeping her out of it. Min knew what the men were up to, too, by the rueful look she gave them; she seemed about to say something, but in the end she only shrugged and joined Birgette.&#8221;<br /><br />In WH, &#8220;A Lily In Winter,&#8221; HB edit., p. 296, Min sees Birghette again. &#8220;Coming toward them was an apparition that made Min's jaw drop. Consternation pushed Rand beyond awareness. From comments she had known that the Captain-General of Elayne's Guards was a woman, and Elayne's warder to boot, but nothing else. This woman had a thick, intricate golden braid pulled over one shoulder of her short, white-collared red coat, and her voluminous blue trousers were tucked into boots with heels as high as Min's. Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another.&#8221; <br /><br />This one hardly needs any explaining at all. Could this Min not recognize Birgette with all those auras if she had met her in Salidar?</b></font><br /><br /><br />Moggy had recently ripped Birgitte out of her place in the pattern. Moirain talks about things like that happening once when she is warning Rand of the dangers of balefire. She says that when it comes back it might not center on him anymore.<br /><br />The first time Min sees Birgitte this is the case. Birgitte is not in her place in the pattern anymore and the weave is trying to put her back in. When Min sees her again she is walking down the hall in all her glory serving a future queen and revolutionizing the way battle and the Queen's Guard is run... she's back in the pattern.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In TEotW, &#8220;Dust On The Wind,&#8221; HB edit., p. 260, Rand, Mat and Thom, have escaped Shadar Logoth, made it on board the Spray, and are introduced to Bayle Domon. &#8220;&#8216;I am a gleeman, you understand, Thom Merrilin by name.&#8217; He shifted his cloak so the multihued patches stirred, as if the captain could have missed them.&#8217;&#8221; They were on board for days, With Thom playing his harp and flute and telling stories.<br /><br />In TSR, &#8220;A Cup Of Wine,&#8221; HB edit., p. 446, Nynaeve, Elayne, Thom and Juilin disembark the seafolk ship in Tanchico. Before they go very far, Bayle Domon yells at them. &#8220;&#8216;You! It do be you!&#8217;<br /><br />&#8220;&#8216;Master Domon?&#8217; Nynaeve said after a moment, giving her braid a sharp tug. &#8216;Bayle Domon?&#8217;<br /><br />&#8220;He nodded. &#8216;Aye. I did never think to see you again. I...did wait as long as I could in Falme, but the time did come when I must sail or watch my ship burn.&#8217;&#8221;<br /><br />Skip ahead to p. 447. &#8220;She half expected some protest out of Nynaeve, yet the older woman only nodded thoughtfully and made introductions among the men. Thom's cloak made Domon's eyebrows rise, but Juilin's Tairen garb brought a frown that was returned in kind.&#8221;<br /><br />Here we have Bayle Domon recognizing Nynaeve and Elayne, whom he met once in Falme, and call out to them. Yet, when he sees Thom, wearing his gleeman cloak again, a man who spent days on his ship entertaining his crew, he has to be introduced to him. And not a mention of, or indication of recognition on Thom's part either. It's obvious they have never met.</b></font><br /><br />But later (WH) he remembers both occasions meeting Thom. I think the look was more for meeting him again and in the presence of the women than he was willing to die to try to save in Falme on an unforgettable day. Quote a set of coincidences. Especially when he meets Egeanin again. No wonder later, when he sees Mat, he thinks Mat could be a way out. Another member of that group that keeps cropping up in his life.<br /><br /><br />Only real mistake was the seal-thing. Other than that I think it can all be explained....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 06:44:57
subject: <b>Re: Ciel</b>
body:
I don't feel that you explained away much of anything. When Moiraine was talking to the Amyrlin, her PLAN, was to get the boys to take the HoV to Illian. When she left, her thoughts to herself were &quot; she had much to do before she saw the Amyrlin again, much to do before morning.&quot; She headed deeper into the keep. <br /> <br /> This Moiraine had an AGENDA. To INDUCE the boys to go to Illian, and meet up with them there. If she was going to accomplish this, she needed to do something to get Rand to change his mind about going off alone. She had ample opportunity to talk with him, but we see no indication of this. The way Rand felt, any way she tried to steer him, he would have gone another. The one main occurrence is the theft of Horn and dagger. This is how she MANIPULATED him. If this ring-on-the-wrong-finger-Moiraine had nothing to do with it, why did she know they would go south? If she thought trollocs and myrddraal stole the Horn, wouldn't she assume they would take it to the Blight? In fact, that's why the trail zig-zagged like it did. The myrddraal kept trying to go north, until Fain got control of them. And no, she did not make the connection to Toman Head in Fal Dara. That was one of the questions she asked Vandene/Adelas, later. <br /> As for Fain taking the dagger from Mat, why would he leave him alive? He knows that Rand is the one he has been looking for now. Mat and Egwene would have meant nothing to him. Remember, also that Liandrin knew nothing of the dagger, from her own mouth. Leaving Mat alive, needing the dagger back, is how Moiraine INDUCES Rand to go where she wants. If she had &quot;much to do&quot;, before she saw the Amyrlin again, what else was it she did to get Rand to go?<br /><br /> Well, we didn't see anyone dressed as a gleeman at the DFS, so Thom isn't really a suspect. However, we did see two AS.<br /><br /> As for Moiraine figuring out that Sammael ruled in Illian, no-one was using his name, he wasn't advertising himself. And he was going by Lord Brend, not Sammael. Just what is one to look for to determine that a Forsaken is in town that is so obvious to you? Messana is hiding out in the WT, and none of the AS except Alviarin knows. Dashiva has been hanging around Rand for quite a while. We, the readers, know their descriptions, but they haven't been around for three thousand years, so no one in this age knows what they look like. Even Vandene/Adelas didn't know much about the Forsaken, so she didn't learn it there. Unless there were pictures, but this would mean that Moiraine would have to have seen him face to face. Which is possible I guess, but I would have to question how, and why Sammael would let her go. And you mentioned personality. I don't think she had time to have tea with him and a nice chat to get that kind of information.<br /><br /> Now, as to Elaida's and Alviarin's letters. Moiraine handed them to Rand. Rand read them, handed them to Moiraine, who then handed them to Egwene, who then read them. Egwene says it doesn't sound like Alviarin. Moiraine says it is Alviarin's writing. Later Egwene says she doubts the letters even exist. She READ the LETTER. Unless you are trying to say that Moiraine is lying about the authenticity of the letter, I don't see what you are trying to say.<br /><br /> Thom's letter. It is all one sentence. &quot;Both were sealed with blue wax, apparently with her Great Serpent ring...&quot; BOTH!<br /><br /> &quot;Moiraine Sedai sent me Lord Ingtar, she thought you might need me.&quot; Nothing there about a pizza. Just a statement. She SENT ME. Not just anyone, ME. She didn't infer anything.<br /> &quot;I did not send Verin, she did that on her own.&quot; Another statement. I, I, I DID NOT SEND Verin.<br /><br /> As for Verin and Loial not spending time together. When they were on Toman Head, they were there for days. Verin, because of the damane, did not take part in the search for Fain, Loial, because he would stand out too much. I think they had ample opportunity to talk. And why would Verin worry about Marin al'Vere knowing about how she knew Loial? She already knows Verin is AS. She could have met him anywhere. Besides, Loial acts like he's never met her either.<br /><br /> Now, as to Lanfear/Keille. I checked and found that Keille, Aviendha, Rand, etc. even ate dinner together around a campfire, at least once. Also, in Rhuideen, Lanfear comes to Rand's room, and tells him she has peeked in on Egwene's dreams, knows she dreams about Gawyn. I can see no logical reason she wouldn't be able to tell the two apart, no matter how mad she was.<br /><br /> As for Min and Birgette, you just need to read those descriptions in WH again. It covers almost a page and a half. The way Min describes her, it is obvious she has never seen her before, with or without auras.<br /> At least not in Salidar. She remembers seeing her in Falme, though, as Birgette Silverbow.<br /><br /> Perrin and his sisters have been editted. That is no longer valid.<br /><br /> BTW; If my theory is correct, these mirror worlds are very similar. That is to say, that a major event, like a Forsaken dying, cleansing the taint, etc., would probably happen in both worlds. This could also mean that there are two Moiraine's trapped in Finnland. What if they free the wrong one in the real world? <br /> This theory might also explain the missing AS at the end of WH, unless RJ resolves that another way. And as someone pointed out above, Taimendred is alive again!<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 07:25:02
subject: <b>RJ is not making mistakes.</b>
body:
Ok, Im diehard Wot fan, but these are great points, So many errors would NOT be overlooked by the master of detail. I'm sorry, everyone who makes an argument for human error, should also look at the other side, maybe RJ is telling us something, I know we all want to protect him and pass discrepincies as error, but maybe it was his whole point? Lokk at it from both sides.


created: 2002-10-10 17:50:24
subject: <b>Just too many</b>
body:
I agree, for a man who keeps track of how many soldiers are in a battle, making some of these mistakes would be both ludicrous and unforgivable.<br /><br />He's told us that he goes back to previous chapters to make sure that he gets inflections of words right, that people are wearing the correct clothes.<br /><br />Also, consider an additional impact of when Rand had his channeling sickness in book 1, maybe that's where the timelines split.<br /><br />Let's keep looking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 19:21:22
subject: <b>Re: Just Too Many</b>
body:
Are you referring to that weird flashback sequence with the farmer and the scarves? I always wondered what RJ was trying to do there. I hadn't tied it in with my theory, but it would be a plausible explanation. Good thought!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 20:06:16
subject: <b>How did Moraine know about the Forsaken?</b>
body:
Well, she knew about it from all the dreams people were having, the strange behaviour, and AS sense of evil creatures, Lan's instincts that something was wrong, an expectation that something major could happen with Ta'vern there, etc etc.<br /><br />Q - How do you propose to actually tie together two mirror worlds into one story? There would be no sense of continuance, as events will not necessarily influence the future, as they may have happened in the 'other' world.<br />A - RJ is good at detail, but even he admits he gets things wrong. Get over it.<br /><br />Also, in a few books, and you'll find out this theory was a bit crazy, but you really put a lot of effort into the theory, so that has to count for something.<br />


created: 2002-10-10 20:10:05
subject: <b>Missing the point</b>
body:
I wrote this really indepth reply and the server cut me off loosing everything....Point...If you re-read the books and stop looking for MISTAKES you will see that most of what you call proof, does not exist. Like you would know what every character is thinking, that's half the story. Don't you think that there could still be some expainations coming? And the whole Moiraine thing, if you re-read it you will see that she suspects Liandrin and she was trying to get there(to egwene) before she finished the job. And someones comment about RJ being a woolhead...bad...what if they are mistakes and he is not perfect and just maybe some of the mistakes are just poorly laid clues, I'm sure you would not be his favorite fan. Name calling is never called for no matter what your intentions. <br />just along for the adventure <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 16:32:42
subject: <b>I'd like to add</b>
body:
With a multi book series, it's sometimes necessary to re-iterate who everyone is for the readers, so to devote an extra amount of space to who someone is from a certain POV. I don't think it specially significant that RJ devotes &quot;half a page&quot; to Min looking at Birgitte or a clue.<br /><br />I also think that Moiraine finding out so quickly about Sammael isn't particularly suspicious. She knows what to look for: someone within the ruling circle who has come out of nowhere, and all of a sudden has a great influence on the previous leaders ie Lord Brend, Gaebril. From there, ask for a description of the person! It's a more likely explanation than she hob-nobbed with darkfriends over coffee and doughnuts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 16:33:37
subject: <b>AS Sense of Evil Creatures?</b>
body:
To Adrian: We have seen how well the &quot;sense of evil&quot; thing works. A dragkar has slipped up on Moiraine at Vandene's place.(it was warded). Perrin smelled the dark hounds in Jarra, nothing from Moiraine and Lan. The gray  men in &quot;Easing the Badger&quot;, were practically on their backs, another dark hound outside the inn they didn't sense. The &quot;sense&quot; comes from touching the True Source, according to Moiraine, Lan gets this benefit thru the bond, and it works for shadowspawn, not people, otherwise DF would easily be found, and Forsaken. Like I said above, Mesanna is in the WT, and no AS has found her, and Dashiva has been around Rand, who is using the True Source also. I didn't understand your inference of a ta'veren effect in a city that was already controlled by Sammael. Was something supposed to happen because Perrin was there? The point was, how did she come up with the name of a particular Forsaken? And as to how to tie in the mirror worlds, RJ is the writer, not me. I'm just making observations and theorizing explanations. If he is making that many errors with his main characters, I don't even want to think how messed up the minor players might be. <br /><br /> And to Lira Sedai, I have read the books about ten times. I only started looking for &quot;mistakes&quot; when I began to get suspicions that something was out of place. And were you saying Liandrin was going to &quot;finish off&quot; Egwene and Mat right there in front of Moiraine and Rand? I think Moiraine darted ahead so that Liandrin wouldn't sense what Moiraine had already done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 17:26:42
subject: <b>Keeping the Story Straight</b>
body:
Thank you <i>ivyetched</i> and <i>The UltimateReality</i> for having open minds and giving a chance to this theory. <br /><br />I never said Robert Jordan was a 'woolhead', I said he's <b>NOT</b> woolheaded thus it unlikly he's made so many major mistakes with his main characters. Jordan has done too well in keeping other aspects of this story straight and secret for these to be honest mistakes. <br /><br />Also, as <i>Light in the Night</i> has said yet people keep forgetting even if Moiraine knew there was a Forsaken present in Illian she still had no way of knowing <b><i>WHO</i></b>.


created: 2002-10-14 17:40:33
subject: <b>Holy cow, this is still going on</b>
body:
Editors that fix what they think are mistakes without RJ's permission?!? Oh come on! Some of these replies are the most loony crap I have ever read. Everybody makes mistakes, I don't care if you plan stuff for 10 years or 20, you can still make some mistakes, heck sometimes the harder you plan something the more you get bogged down and forget the simple stuff, like how big peoples families are. Egwene has like 3 older sisters, how much of them do we see in the series? (they are talked about in the new prologue &quot;Ravens&quot; in From the Two Rivers, part one of the children&#8217;s addition of tEotW) <br /><br />We really need for the next book to come out because some of this stuff is really reaching, I mean REALLY REALLY reaching!<br /><br />The whole thing about Sammeal in Illian, if anybody had seen the high lord ruling Illian I am sure they couldn't help but notice the big scar on his face *big freaking clue*. So ok, she knows from all the people having bad dreams and what not there is a bad guy in the city, now she gets the description of the guy, from somebody, a no name, anybody that has seen the guy. Not hard to figure it out, forsaken with big scar on face, hrmmmmm.<br /><br />Oh and who sent Verrin along for tGH or her own motivations is still a mystery. But so is the person that is Verrin. Go read a bunch of Verrin theories, she is a mysterious woman, and we are waiting to find out things about her, but it has nothing to do with shadow worlds or whatever the heck this whole thread is about. Verrin has some plan, we don't know what it is yet, RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 19:23:16
subject: <b>sorry for being lazy</b>
body:
but i didn't read more than three of the previous comments and i may repeat or represent statements already made.  Though i agree that RJ will eventually come back to portal stones and mirror worlds i don't think we've seen any evidence of either since TSR.  All of your discrepancies can be explained away.  But the most important point is that if something happened in a mirror world there is no way it could have the same effects across worlds.  What you have implied is that somehow one reality is flowing into another reality as if they were one.  The very concept of the mirror worlds is that they do not affect one another.<br />But I would like to point out that you did have some interesting ideas and some duds.  For example I think it is brilliant what you have thouht up for Moiraine I agree that is totaly possible that she played some part in Fain's escape as a tool for her plans for Rand.  What i do disagree with is why this behavior makes her black as opposed to a typical Aes Sedai.  Moiraine has on occasion stated quite bluntly that she would kill all three of them before she let the dark one have them and if she learned forbidden things like balefire i can imagine she learned many other things in order that she would have as many options as possible in her quest.  So bravo on that.<br />but some duds i think are Perrin.  Firstly because if i remember correctly and i would go so far as to say your wrong because i have no books at hand and so can't prove it, but Perrin, when he was living at home, lived on a working farm with extended family and such.  When he returned to the Two Rivers he found his entire family dead that meaning father, mother, brother uncle aunt and my explanation .... cousin.  There were other things that i think can be explained away but as one of the few messages i read said I also applaud you on the amount of digging you have done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-20 21:23:18
subject: <b>The Moiraine sent me comment</b>
body:
Moiraine did send her, even though she didn't actually say &quot;Go There&quot;.  Moiraine dissapeared from the Tar Valon party two days before she left.  Verin knew about Rand and it was reasonable that she left to keep tabs on Rand and or moiraine.<br /><br />As for the worlds thing, its an interesting line of thought, definately showing initiative.<br /><br />To the dark moiraine line, i don't personally agree but it would explaine the presence of multiple Aes Sedai and moiraines arrival within hours of Ingtar's in the begining of TGH.


created: 2002-11-10 06:47:48
subject: <b>The Nature of Mirror Worlds</b>
body:
This is just one last comment. Mirror worlds are a REFLECTION of the real world. The way I imagine them, they all start out the SAME, at some point. As time progresses, each one evolves a little differently. Some changes lead to more and more changes, that result in a world like the washed out one in tGH. But others, have more subtle changes, and therefore remain very close to the real world. Remember how it was explained? &quot;If a woman turned right instead of left?&quot; Thus a deviation from the real world. Something minor like Moiraine sealing letters with her serpent ring instead of her House ring, is a change of no real bearing. They must start out as copies of the real world, and some of them must closely parallel the real world, otherwise they could not have the same people in them as Loial said was possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 12:11:05
subject: <b>This is crazy</b>
body:
This is crazy.  First of all, Thom loves being introduced, it makes hime feel important.  Secondly, it was Ingtar.  If you pay attention later on in the books, you will find that Ingtar tells Rand about him. He speaks of a skinny, pale little fellow who he had to let in.  Fain has already escaped by this point.  Finally, Fain would undoubtly recognize one of such high standing in Shienar, not to mention the one who would lead the Hunt after them.  He would be the least likely person to come.  I mean, someone who lives and works against the DO in the Borderlands?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 16:06:50
subject: <b>To Kwestfall 2006</b>
body:
First of all, why should Thom need to be introduced to Bayle Domon? He was wearing his gleeman's cloak, just like he did when he spent two weeks on the Spray. He entertained the crew the whole time he spent on that ship. In fact, Thom should have known Domon better than Nynaeve, who only met him once. Did Domon even act like he recognized Thom? Or vice-versa? <br /><br /> Secondly, Ingtar let in the guy that shot the crossbow bolt at Rand/Siuan, if you paid attention. Don't you think it a little strange that Ingtar would help someone steal the Horn of Valere? The way that Ingtar reacts to the theft of the Horn, he is obsessed with its recovery. He thought it would be his salvation.<br /><br /> And finally, why would Fain recognize almost anyone in Shienar? He was held prisoner in the dungeon the whole time he was there. He had contact with very few people. And, as I said before, why would Ingtar help him steal the Horn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-22 10:36:18
subject: <b>Some clear thinking...</b>
body:
First, I will discuss the perrin's sisters thing-<br /><br />Who ever said that those people were Perrin's sisters? Adora and Deselle are the names that are mentioned in tSR, but it is never stated that Adora and Deselle are even female. It is very possible that Perrin has three brothers.<br /><br />It is also possible that those people are Perrin's cousins, or that Adora, Deselle and Paet are other relatives, or even friends of the family.<br /><br />As for the seal on Moiraine's letter to Thom, that can be explained by the simple 'a man sees what he wants to see' argument - In other words, Rand sees the golden serpent imprint, while Mat notices the tree symbol that is her personal seal.<br /><br />Alternatively, it could be that Rand had not paid attention to the seal on Thom's letter, and thus assumed that it was the same as the one on his own letter. My proof of this possibility is the choice of language - &quot;Both had been sealed with blue wax, apparently with her Great Serpent ring, impressed with the image of the snake biting its own tail&quot; - notice the word 'apparently'?<br /><br />It seems that Rand did not look at the seal on Thom's letter, or saw only what he wanted to see.<br /><br />Now on to the letter from Alviarin - Could it be that Egwene is doing a common thing - letting emotion colour her thoughts? If you look at the same paragraph it says &quot;She could still see Rand gloating over...&quot;. This clearly demonstrates that she is not happy with him, and when people are annoyed about someone, they often say nonsensical things.<br /><br />Moiraine's agenda and Fain's escape are unrelated - it is more likely that Lanfear freed Fain, since it is her that appears almost right in his path as he follows Fain, and that same sequence caused Rand to use the portal stone which played up and took months to get them to Falme. Lanfear orchestrated the whole thing. And the 'not who I expected' is explained by the fact that Lanfear had only just been released from her prison, and a special darkfriend such as Fain would have seen an image of her before.<br /><br />It is also possible that this explains the confusion between Verin and Moiraine - perhaps Lanfear used compulsion to send Verin to Rand, since she needed an Aes Sedai to avoid having to channel often in front of Rand.<br /><br />Lanfear's trouble recognising Aviendha is simple - when it comes to Rand, Lanfear is extremely jealous of any woman who comes close to him, and flies into a jealous rage. A person in a jealous rage is not thinking rationally, and as such, she never stops to think about who Aviendha is. All that she knows in her rage is that Aviendha is one of the 'Aiel' close to Rand, and Egwene is dressed as an Aiel.<br /><br />Min and Birgitte can be explained by considering the fact that Min first sees Birgitte before the Warder bond has really taken full hold. Min sees many more images around warders than normal people, and Birgitte is a very special warder - she is female. I believe that the warder bond supplies the warder with more energy than normal, and as such warders have more aura. Birgitte is still recovering from the tearing in the first scene, and so she does not yet have all of the energy needed to display the aura.<br /><br />The Domon/Merrilin recognition thing has been handled by many others - Bayle's eyes rose in recognition and surprise at him being with the girls.<br /><br />This wraps up most of the arguments in the original theory, except for the one about Moiraine's choice of words 'induce', which probably meant that she planned to describe Illian to Mat and Perrin, who would pull Rand along with them, and then ask Rand to take the Horn with him.<br /><br />Have you noticed that Moiraine makes an angry sound when she finds Mat's Dagger is missing, as if she didn't know beforehand. Lanfear instructed Fain not to kill Mat or Egwene because she had her uses for them. And Ingtar's comment about the Amyrlin seat being right would be a lie, since Ingtar IS a DF. Alternatively, Moiraine may have been planning on having someone 'steal' the Horn and head for Illian, but Fain got to it first.<br /><br />Moiraine's recognition of Sammael in Illian is easy to explain - Moiraine would have gotten descriptions of recent events from city-folk, and between the sudden appearance of Lord Brend, the distinctive marking on Lord Brend's face, and the recent events described, Moiraine would have figured it out quite easily, since a fair bit is known about the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 14:16:21
subject:
<b>Moiraine...BA!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
This is a very well thought out theory, although I do have to agree with everyone else that, yes, RJ IS human, as hard as that is to believe; I know it was a shock to me too. But just to throw something out on the wind, I thought I'd mention what an interesting little twist it would have been to find out that Moiraine is in BA. Maybe not because she wants to help the DO, but because she is a smart girl and she realized that playing a double agent could prove very useful...Who knows though! Certainly not me, and from what we have seen RJ probably doesn't either...Let the Wheel weave as the Wheel wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-17 17:10:27
subject: <b>about the ring thing</b>
body:
you said that you saw something about a ring being on one hand or another, I saw that mentioned in TDR not sure chapter or page but I do remember hearing someone telling Egween about that maybe before or after testing


created: 2003-09-04 23:25:51
subject: <b>Say it ain`t so...</b>
body:
I just saw this theory, and have to reply.  BY now, we know RJ made the correction on Perrin`s sisters. <br /><br />But if it is true that RJ is switching back and forth in the mirror worlds, I`ll be majorly disappointed.  Or, if we get to the end of the story and discover none of it was real, that would devastate me.  There would be no way that I could ever understand the WoT story.  All my theories and speculations would be for nought.  The whole fun of WoT would be thrown out with the dishwater.<br /><br />I truly hope you`re wrong with this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 16:41:54
subject: <b>Couple other details</b>
body:
In the beginning of TGH, Moraine was gone for a little while and Lan commented that she needs to be alone sometimes.  I think there is a good chance that Moraine was at the meeting that &quot;Bors&quot; attended.  I wonder if it is possible that Moraine infiltrated the Dark Friend network simply as a means to gather information.  In other words, she damned her own soul to achieve her objectives.  Just a thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nice job on the theory tho.


created: 2004-03-10 14:20:53
subject: <b>Mirror Worlds</b>
body:
I love this theory. Has everyone forgotten when Rand took everyone to Almoth Plain. Mat told Rand &quot;Rand... I would never betray you.&quot; Everyone in the group is shaken by the ordeal. If you think about it Mat does'nt say anything else about it. So if we think of this theory as it is intended, the lives that Mat sees are not too different from the one we all know. If you take a look at this section you might be more open to this theory. <br /><br />just my 2 coppers<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 14:43:29
subject: <b>Correction...</b>
body:
...to what Mat said after the portal stone incident.<br /><br />tGH page534(pb)<br /><br />As she started around among the others, stopping breifly by each, Rand went to his friends. When he tried to straghten Mat, Mat jerked and stared at him, then grabbed Rand's coat with both hands. &quot;Rand I'd never tell anyone about-about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to beleive that!&quot; he looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.<br />&quot;I do,&quot; Rand said. He wondered whast lives Mat had lived, and what he had done. (He must have told someone, or he wouldn't be so anxious about it.) He couldn't hold it against him. Those had been other Mats, not this one. Besides, after some of the alternatives he had seen for him-self....&quot;I beleive you, Perrin?&quot;<br /><br />Later on the same page Perrin says.<br /><br />&quot;We don't have any chioces, do we, Rand? Whatever happens, whatever we do, somethings are almost always the same.&quot;<br />Then he asks Rand.<br />&quot;Where are we? Is this one ofthose worlds you and Hurin were talking about?&quot;<br />&quot;It's Toman Head,&quot; Rand told him. &quot;In our world. Or so Verin says, And its autumn.&quot;<br /><br />Who is to say that Rand did it right. I find it hard to beleive that Rand just happens to do everything right with the OP. If this theory is true,(which this chapter might make it so) then this is where the world switch happend. <br /><br />It would explain the inconsistancies(sp) that Moriaine told us about not sending Verin. And all of TLitN's thougths on this. Reread this chapter &quot;What might be&quot;, and then this theory again and you night have a change of heart. <br /><br />again just my 2 coppers<br /><br />Ashandari.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-27 16:37:41
subject: <b>One slight problem</b>
body:
RJ has confirmed Fain wasn't freed by Moiraine. His escape had nothing to do with her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> loves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-20 13:07:00
subject: <b>Light in the Night...</b>
body:
Your longest theory was a masterpiece, but I think you lost something here. Its a list of inconsistanties, like you said. RJ cant keep track of everything!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-22 21:31:32
subject: <b>Thom</b>
body:
I think the reason Bayle didn't immediately react to Thom was that he thought him dead. People see what they want to see, and if you were on the other side of the world, and met someone who looked like a man you met on a single voyage down a river, and later died, you probably wouldn't assume that they were the same person. Keep in mind, also, that neither Elayne, Nynaeve or Juilin had been there. If he had found Thom with Mat or Rand, his reaction might have been different.<br /><br />Then, when he is introduced as Thom Merillin, a gleeman, Bayle <i>does</i> react. I assume you took this to be the reaction of meeting a gleeman, but I think Bayle Domon just realized he was dealing with the same man. He didn't say anything though - maybe he didn't want to attract on a getting in a battle with a Fade. And Bayle hasn't really been that inquisitive with Mat either, you'll notice.<br /><br />I believe that if we take all these incidents one by one, we might be able to find a solution to most of these problems. The seals on the letters I firmly believe to be a mistake. An insignificant detail, retaken books later - sounds very easy to make a mistake in that. Actually, I'm surprised there are so <i>few</i> anomalies - keeping in mind that we're talking about over ten books of several hundred pages. R.J. really is a master of detail. He's simply not inhuman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 03:01:03
subject: <b>A Little Late</b>
body:
sigh. its been some 9 months since anyone posted on this thread... i guess i arrived a little late.<br />anyway, i think im the first to throw myself in wholly with Light In The Night. <br />although i dont like the implications, i find his arguments far more compelling than the 50 that follow. <br />i had many good counter-points but ive forgotten them all. (damn that fun in a bag)<br /><br />so ill just say, when you tie all this in with Light In The Night's other posts (about parallel worlds etc) it really becomes quite coherent. <br /><br />could ingtar have released fain in one world and moiraine in another?


created: 2005-08-15 08:07:04
subject: <b>GASP</b>
body:
Now that would be an event that would certainly make every single reader (besides you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) GASP.. first we cheered (Rand used the Portal Stone and made it to Toman Head) and now, 9 books later, we GASP.<br /><br />I didn't know that there were these 'glaring' inconsistencies involving Moiraine, thank you very mich for pointing them out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 18:25:11
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I don't know if I think Fain will do it though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 19:20:51
subject: <b>nice points.</b>
body:
Im not sure if its enough to prove it, but it certainly looks that way. Id like to se it happen at any rate<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 19:36:46
subject: <b>Misunderstanding the passage</b>
body:
I think you guys are missing the boat on what the passage is about.  It is not talking about who is going to face Moridin, it's talking about how no one can bear to know that Ishi is only half imprisoned by the seals.  It also hints at his wierd connection with the dark one, more than the other forsaken.  It has nothing to do with who will face him, simply asking rhetorically &quot;who could really stand to face him, to know that he is still partially free&quot;


created: 2002-10-08 20:20:43
subject: <b>It is just another reference to Ba'alzamon, not Fain.</b>
body:
&quot;Soul of Shadow&quot; means the same thing as &quot;Heart of the Dark&quot;  It is just naming Ba'alzamon once again.  It has nothing to do with who can stop him; the question was rhetorical, a means of emphasizing the greatness of Ba'alzamon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 20:21:50
subject: <b>Still might be Fain</b>
body:
I assumed, like heimy, that &quot;who can face the betrayer of hope?&quot; was rhetorical. The soul of shadow is going on to further describe Ishamael, not to name who will face him. I don't disagree that Fain might be a suspect, but not directly from this prophecy.


created: 2002-10-08 20:36:52
subject: <b>It's just a sentence fragment</b>
body:
All it is is a sentence fragment referring to Ishamael again; the &quot;he&quot; of that sentence is still Ishamael.  &quot;Soul of shadow, Soul of the shadow, he is--&quot; is saying that Ishamael's soul is of shadow, that is, he is evil, and also that he is the heart of the Shadow, the Dark One's forces, and it is about to say more about him when it is cut off.  The question of who can face the Betrayer of Hope is rhetorical.<br /><br />Incidentally, just taking a step back, didn't you always imagine that Rand would face Moridin in the end?  I know I did...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 20:50:03
subject: <b>Makes Sense</b>
body:
It would make good story sense.  Rand already fought Ishamael.  Even in the reincarnation of Moridin, going back to that well would weaken things.  Plus, and this is an odd point, if Moridin is the 'one other' creator/destroyer who LTT refers to, there is almost a brotherhood bond between the three of them.  A very dark, twisted bond :-)<br /><br />In any event, as 'primary opponents', Moridin does not seem to be set up opposite of Rand in any plot devices.  Demandred certainly has been.  And, of course, Fain.  However, Moridin is Nae'blis and that gives him power beyond Demandred, and thus Fain would logically choose him as primary threat.  Plus, I believe Fain is setting himself up as an 'alternate' evil, and to take down the DO's champion would be a triumph.


created: 2002-10-08 21:18:48
subject: <b>&quot;Truth&quot; may be the True Power which Moridin is addicted to.</b>
body:
Awesome theory.  I've thought about this prophecy before, but I forgot that last part.  It makes sense that Fain would end up screwing the Shadow.  You know how bad guys always shoot themselves in the foot.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  The T-Rex defeated the velociraptors, Gollum messed up Sauren's evil plans, and Wormwood ruined Saruman, etc.<br /><br />Okay.  The first part describes Moridin as the servant of the Dark One:<br />&quot;'Heart of the Dark. Ba'alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope.&quot;<br /><br />I think it is his use of the True power which will wreak havoc:<br />&quot;Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth.&quot;<br /><br />And Mordeth/Fain who will trip him up in some moment of triumph:<br />&quot;A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is-&quot; <br /><br />Mordeth!


created: 2002-10-08 22:26:16
subject: <b>The full transcript of that quote</b>
body:
The full quote from Verin (little did she know).<br /><br />&quot;Heart of the Dark. Ba'alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by<br /> secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope. Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth. A lie is our shield.<br /> Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the<br /> Shadow, he is-<br /><br />- unbeatable, since the DO will save him each time Rand makes him fry.&quot;<br /><br />It is probably just a rhetorical question.


created: 2002-10-08 23:56:21
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
I think it's a great theory.  We don't know whether or not it's rhetorical so we might as well theorize about it in case it isn't.  I think it's really interesting and new <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 02:54:21
subject: <b>I'm not sure but....</b>
body:
I really hope Demandred takes him out and becomes Nae'blis.  He is way cooler.<br /><br />However, I'm sure Fain and the evil he carries will somehow come into play in the end game.  But I always felt after reading Winter's Heart that the way in which Rand cleanses the taint has something to do with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 02:58:21
subject: <b>It would be nice...</b>
body:
... to see Fain do something that significant.  It might even justify his existence.  After all, he's been portrayed as one of the most powerful/dangerous characters in the books.  A man whom the DO wants dead, yet always survives.  But what has he done so far?  Corrupt some Whitecloaks?  Make Elaida and Niall paranoid (bet that was hard)?  Scratch Rand a couple of times?<br /><br />Killing Moridin would really build him up for the inevitable confrontation with Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 05:28:40
subject: <b>Is this a joke?</b>
body:
Besides the fact that this was clearly a rhetorical question, this theory really bends things to fit.<br />I mean c'mon, soul of shadow is fain???  maybe it's a fade? huh, maybe its a Grey Man, who give their soul to serve the dark.  Yeah that makes sense.  Maybe it was Ingtar, or Perrin, who will 'sell his soul'?<br />Bah, this theory is plain wrong<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 07:24:01
subject: <b>If you ask me I think Fain will probibly of Slayer.</b>
body:
<br />I am all for reading between the lines, but really come on now.   <br /><br />So are you telling me that the Trollocs that answered to Balzamon all have a proficy that predicts he will be killed and have to change bodies and names to Mordin?  Fain might kill Mordin, but I doubt that The Trollocs have a dark Prophesy about it.  This was back when everyone including readers thought that Ishy was the DO and this was the first really clue that he was just a crazy old forsaken.<br /><br />Slayer seems more likely since Slayer is out to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 08:37:31
subject: <b>to strike fear</b>
body:
i must side with those who are calling the final phrase a rhetorical one. it's a common literary device to reiterate the power of a person or other being. it's quite common in biblical literature as well as other ancient epics, e.g. Beowulf. it's great evidence, but i think that the evidence has been mistaken for something that it cannot support. and honestly, why the hell would a prophecy say &quot;hey, you mighty Betrayer of Hope, you're going down and the guy's name is __________.&quot; convenient, that would be. it's surprising that more prophecy's aren't this succinct, wotlife would be so much easier!<br /><br />good theory though, touche.


created: 2002-10-09 10:44:10
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
That would be a little anticlimactic after all the Ishy vs. Randness throughout the series, but you may very well be right. It makes sense at least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 12:00:56
subject: <b>Soul of shadow = Ishy</b>
body:
I have to agree with those who think Soul of shadow = Ishy.<br /><br />What has my mind thinking is <br />'A lie is our shield.'<br /><br />Does it mean that 'the shield' whatever it is. Assuming it is smoething that is protecting us (us=Randland) like the 7 seals is a lie. Meaining we think it is protecting us but it is not.<br />Which fits in with why they should be broken.<br /><br />Or does it mean something that Ishy believes in is a lie.<br />but because he doesn't think it a lie it is protecting us.<br /><br />Fain, Slayer Perrin or anybody else probably have nothing to do with this quote.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 13:40:31
subject: <b>Soul of the Shadow</b>
body:
It seems clear to me that &quot;Soul Of The Shadow&quot; refers to Ishamael himself. It is definitely not the individual who is destined to be the future killer of Moridin.<br />


created: 2002-10-09 15:25:14
subject: <b>soul of the shadow = ish/balz</b>
body:
i alawys took the ending line &quot;Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is-&quot; to refer to ishamael, NOT the person who is gonna stand up to him.  we all know that the dragon reborn is the one to stand up to ishy anyway, so i don't really see the validity of throwing fain/mordeth in the mix.  this isn't to say that fain might not very well kill moridin, but just that fain isn't important enough to write into any type of prophecy.  and for those of you who are thinking, &quot;wait a minute.  anyone who can kill a chosen should be important enough!&quot;  well, then what about morraine?  she killed two of them and ain't anywhere near the prophecies!


created: 2002-10-09 16:18:32
subject: <b>Possible double entendre</b>
body:
I think it is certainly possible that it is referring to Fain as the eventual killer of Moridin.  True it can be interpreted as a rhetorical question but it is open to the alternative interpretaion as well.  The point made that the Dark One can just resurrect Ishy/Moridin again actually gives credence to Fain being the one to ultimately do Moridin in.  The only thing aside from balefire to be able to kill with finality a servant of the DO still in the DO's good graces would be the evil of Aridhol, at least I think Sammael's demise would suggest this. It would also be consistent with the theme of evil turning in on itself that is reiterated throughout the series.


created: 2002-10-09 19:05:34
subject: <b>What about Shaidar Haran?</b>
body:
I think Shaider Haran might kill Moridin out of jealousness or something. I don't have any proof or any thing, that's just what I like to believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 20:32:24
subject: <b>Since the DO can bring anyone back</b>
body:
Sure Fain can kill Moridin, maybe even twice, or even thrice. But Rand will <i> kill </i> whoever the soul of Ishy is in at the end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With the recent accomplishment of the manned lunar landing.... The 1981 manned Mars mission (1982 landing on Mars) is shown as an integral part of the total space program in the next two decades.&quot;<br />- Space Task Group August 4. 1969</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 22:28:26
subject: <b>well thought out....</b>
body:
I'm sorry to disagree with this theory, as it does sound very good, however, I don't think that was what the &quot;prophecy&quot; or whatever the script was, meant.  I think that the portion may say something important, but I don't think that it was talking about Ishamael's/Moridin's killer.  I think that when it said &quot;Who can stand against him?&quot; or something along those lines, that that was the end of that line of thought.  I am of the opinion that it was still talking about Ishy when it mention soul of the shadow.<br />Sorry, but I can't make myself agree.  Good job though.


created: 2002-10-10 04:28:27
subject: <b>an afterthought</b>
body:
What we know:<br />-Ishamael is the Betrayer of Hope according to the glossary<br />-Ba'alzoman means 'Heart of the Dark'<br />-Ishamael uses the name Ba'alzoman<br />-Ishamael is now Moridin<br />+++++++<br />-Rand killed Ishy<br />-Moridin is no longer Ba'alzoman<br />-Ba'alzoman means 'Heart of the Dark'


created: 2002-10-10 06:15:02
subject: <b>Aridhol Vs ShadarLogot</b>
body:
Hey, I think this is good....<br /><br />I thougth about it and re-read some parts of the series and I agree that Fain, the last remnant of Aridhol, is  a likely candidate for wasting Moridin.<br /><br />Remember that Aridhol, former comrade in arms of Manetheren became Evil to fight Evil itself. It still HATES the DO.<br /><br />I can't remember the quote, but wasn't there something about 2 things beating in counterpart at the cleansing scene?<br /><br />And the 2 wounds in Rand's side: also fighting eachother.....Jordan likes similarities.......<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And as the cleansing of Saidin was (IMHO) setting 2 evils to fight each other ( math: 2 times negative becomes positive) this might mirror in the personifications of those evils. <br /><br />Two runner-ups eliminated, so Rand can concentrate on his big match against the DO.<br /><br />And for those who think Rand's workload becomes too light, <br />there still is be SHAIDAR HARAN !!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-10-10 06:37:31
subject: <b>it's possible, but i don't think so</b>
body:
I think Rand will kill Moridin, probably at Shayol Ghul.  a nice big dramatic duel, Shadow's Champion vs Light's Champion.  Moridin might take Rand down with him, or Rand may have to kill himself to destroy Moridin, i don't know, i'm just making this up as I go along.  Fain might be involved, though.  <br /><br />Mortecareus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 06:45:20
subject: <b>OOPs My Bad</b>
body:
I wrote SHADAR LOGOTH when I meant SHAYOL GHUL  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />glad i didn't have to write a 10-book spanned story......<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />X<br />


created: 2002-10-10 12:12:09
subject: <b>Moridin's future killer</b>
body:
is RAND. Just think about the very beginning of the entire series. You have Ishamael taunting the insane Lews Therin after he's slain his kin, and LTT proceeds to kill himself. Ishamael also comments on how they've been matched up against each other countless times over the ages, and will be again. They already have been a few times in this series, and, undoubtedly will be again, but this time, with Rand (avatar of good) winning and Moridin (avatar of evil) going down hard.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 12:07:23
subject: <b>Of Course Fain is going to kill Moridin...</b>
body:
Moridin's last thought at the Forsaken tea party (or wahtever thery're calling it now - the meeting in WH) is that he has to do something about Fain.<br /><br />Fain is a non-character in the series.  He should have been wasted about 10 times by now, but he is still alive.<br /><br />You have to think about this from an author's perspective, not from a story perspective:<br /><br />The only reason Fain is still alive is that he has some purpose in the grand scheme of things.  Probably something major.  He's a Gollum character - that is, he will persue and harass and do everything possible to screw with the main character, until the end he will end up saving him (unintentionally, of course).<br /><br />There's just too much going for it.  If you read Jordan, you have to be able to sense a set up coming.  Rand, cleansing Saidin was set up.  Nynaeve healing Logain.  You could have called that way back in TGH when Logain was wondering around the White Tower.  Why else would he be in the story, if not to serve a purpose.  Nynaeve, in the story at all, is proof to me that she will heal Rand from being dead (after three days).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 11:08:07
subject: <b>Very possible</b>
body:
Good theory and some good thoughts afterwards (esp. Truth may be the True Power - good thinking Batman)<br /><br />Fain has to be involved at the climax of the story, that's a given its just how he's going to fit in. Killing Moridin just before he stops/kills Rand would be a bit of an obvious role and I hope Mr. Jordan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> doesn't go for that as it all ends as a tolkien copy OR I think Rand will take out Moridin, unravel the web that holds the Bore open say &quot;Now I'm going to live happily ever after&quot; and then be stabbed by Fain as he jumps out of the shadows. A kind of The Evil of Man moral ending.<br /><br />I could develop that idea further but I couldn't come up with any evidence so it would be a waste of time.<br /><br />Dai Lau<br />Life is but a dream so remember to change the sheets after.


created: 2002-10-15 01:19:19
subject: <b>No no no</b>
body:
i think you are reading too much into this, Ish/Moridin is referred to in each of those instances, not Fain.  I don't really see Fain killing Moridin, it'd be pretty dumb for the DO to bring back the strongest guy hes got just so he can get killed, Jordan just has a sick sense of humor and must really hate Aginor to do it to him, but not to Ishy.  Ish is going to be there at the end.  I hope he kills Demandred cus he gets on my nerves baaaaaaaaad.  Please RJ kill Demandred soon!  <br />ps. but make it a cool death where he takes out some major good guys too <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-29 17:31:54
subject: <b>soul of the shadow is not fain</b>
body:
Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is-' <br /><br />this sentence is referring to what moridin is, he is the soul of the shadow....<br /><br />the passage describes who he is and his traits, saying for one who rids all hope, who can stand up against him, then it says what he is. we know he is the highest of the forsaken, 2nd only to the DO<br />he is kind of the do's soul in the pattern.<br /><br />duram


created: 2002-11-04 15:16:37
subject: <b>Contradicting Myself</b>
body:
I seriously doubt that Fain Kills Moridin for lots of reasons.  The biggest being the fact that I beleive that Moridin is Ishmael and that the war between the Creator and the Dark One is fought with human serogates, mainly the soul of the dragon and Ishy reborn over and over.  The only way to end the cycle on Ishy's part is the Bale Fire his butt out of the pattern.  Only Rand can do that and I think that he will and will be a tremendous blow to the Dark One's power because he would have to choose a new #1.  Granted he has a lot to choose from but still, a major blow.<br />I do think that this is a good theory because Fain is evil but of a middle sort.  Meaning that he is out to get Rand and Ishy for different reasons.  So he might inadvertantly help one side by attacking another.  In a loose comparision will Gollom in TLOTR.  I realize that Jorden doesn't consciously copy from tolkien but he is writting a work of Fantasy and Tolkien and Tolkienesk Themes will always be found in every meaningful epic fantasy tale.  It is Tolkien after all.  Thanks for reading my rambaling . . .


created: 2002-12-19 18:36:27
subject: <b>Who said anything about killing?</b>
body:
This prophecy doesn't say anything about killing, just who can face him.  Questions in prophecy can be literal too, not only rhetorical.  I don't believe that &quot;soul of shadow&quot; is referring to Ishy/Moridin at all.  If the prophecy were to continue talking about him it woudl have referred in some way to death, his 'current' aspect/incarnation.  The first two are aspects of him, the third would be too if it referred to him.  Shaidar Haran, is hand of the dark (or shadow) not soul.  The key is as the original poster stressed, the second repeat of the phrase has a &quot;the&quot; in it.  Two distinct entities.  Soul of Shadow is Mordeth, soul of THE shadow is Fain.  The two are one.


created: 2004-02-15 17:01:05
subject: <b>Indeed</b>
body:
And why would Betrayer of Hope be killed? <br />You hope he will be, but his name just points it out : it's just hope....<br /><br />and could Death die?!?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-13 22:10:28
subject: <b>Alivia cannot be Lanfear</b>
body:
Alivia cannot be Lanfear reborn. Even if the idea of two personalities merging is true (which I doubt), Alivia is over 400 years old, and alive when Lanfear awoke.


created: 2002-10-14 00:20:51
subject: <b>Naah</b>
body:
I don't like the way heaps of Wot readers insist that their must only be a couple of hundred souls that matter. I don't like the idea that there are only a limited number of roles to be played.


created: 2002-10-14 01:00:32
subject: <b>Nice try but I don't think so.</b>
body:
I don't agree with this theroy but it IS unique and interesting.<br />Good try!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 02:01:14
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
It makes sense. The reason the other Forsaken do not have counterparts may be because the Wheel doesn't throw out replacements at even intervals. It just kind of throws them out as needed. This would explain why there are only 4 replacements. The forsaken being froze confused the pattern.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 08:19:37
subject: <b>Is there a Need ?</b>
body:
Just a quick question, but why would the pattern need a new Demandred at all ? I mean, Demandred the first time was a general for the Light who turned against Lews Therin. But there are enough people in this Age who are willing to turn on Rand. I believed that when souls are reborn, it is for a specific purpose, that the Pattern needs them, The Dragon to fight the Shadow, Birgette to be a hero, Hawkwing to be the High King. At the moment, is there a Need for a new Demandred ?<br /><br />And BTW, why do so many people believe Perrin is the King of Manetheren Reborn ? If he is reborn, couldn't he just be the rebirth of the Perrin from the last time this Age came round. No every character needs to be a Hero from the Ages.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 08:35:48
subject: <b>Sure, I'll Bite</b>
body:
I don't agree with you, but I sure like what you presented.  Here's a few comments:<br /><br />Your mention of the Wheel spinning people out is notable.  We all know that False Dragons are the Wheel spinning out potential Dragons until the real one fits.  But let's play with the syntax a bit:<br /><br />All those references are really the Wheel spinning out False Dragons REBORN.  Perhaps Demandred was the first (or last, actually), true, False Dragon.  A potential Dragon who did not do precisely what was needed, and Lews Therin did.  This...lack, this absence that must've been felt by Demandred could go a LOOOONG way in explaining his hatred for LTT.  Lews Therin was, simply, what Demandred could've/should've been (&quot;could've&quot; from the Wheel's perspective, &quot;should've&quot; from his own). <br /><br />I mean, Sammael hated LTT as well, right?  But the rest of the Forsaken shrug that off.  But Demandred's hatred was regarded as pure and almost (un)holy, and accorded with respect.  What's the difference?<br /><br />Why should the Wheel, which spins out that which it needs and demonstrably takes the shotgun approach (send a spray of people until one person works out) only do it -after- LTT's death?  <br /><br />As Taim said, &quot;It could've been me.&quot;  He may be -precisely- correct. <br /><br />Way too many things about Taim don't jibe if he's not essentially connected to Demandred (the only piece we haven't really been able to place).  How did he get so knowledgeable about Channeling?  He's not just strong, but well-trained.  How does he do that without getting caught all those years? (especially with the Reds running rampant, as well as Cadsuane)  Why is LTT so filled with rage at his appearance, but not of others?<br /><br />Actually, I like your theory a LOT.  You're either incredibly correct, or incredibly wrong, but you've given one heckuva theory.


created: 2002-10-14 10:41:18
subject: <b>Sounds a bit iffy to me, but...</b>
body:
You may very well have it right. I had always thought that Shaidar Haran was tied to Asmodean somehow (don't ask how, just a hunch) but the Moridin tie-in was intruiging. Right or wrong, I gotta give you an A+ for creative thinking!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 11:40:48
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Its simple and doesn't involve every character masquerading as another character. Souls are reborn its a major part of the series and it is the soul, not the individual, that is reborn as we see esp from Rand/LTT.<br /><br />BUT I'd prefer it if it was just accepted instead of trying to spot every character from the past in the Now. Yeah Taim is a good candidate for Neo-Demandred but it could just be another soul fulfilling the same/similar role. <br /><br />I agree with Dardis that Perrin is his own unique soul that hasn't been seen before, otherwise Hawkwing would have said hullo like he did to Rand (Same with Mat)<br /><br />Maybe Lanfear is Alivia's Soul reborn (doesn't matter how old she is, whole point of theory is the forsaken were apart from the Pattern) and it gives the soul a chance for redemption. Which I think all will appreciate.<br /><br />Dai Lau<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-14 14:33:56
subject: <b>Just thinking</b>
body:
Good theory, but going by your idea that a soul is a character archetype, do the 'neo-Forsaken' HAVE to be evil? Surely for some of them first time 'round they turned to the Shadow intially through circumstance- circumstance which may never happen in this age.<br /><br />Merely ponderering....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> I am Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Asylum Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> The Ring of the Malkieri Kings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg lives! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Dammit my eye's on fire! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 15:43:30
subject: <b>Won't you...</b>
body:
Taimendred people ever give up??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Shameless Chatroom Flirt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Warderette to Dodem <br />Aes Sedai to Jarrod<br />Alexia is my Cowgirl on shining mower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 19:35:05
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
...but the sole example you have of two reborn souls coexisting is LTT and Rand both existing at the moment (LTT in Rand's head to be sure, but how can he be there if his soul has moved on and been reborn into Rand). Now I don't think this is taint sickness, Rand is really hearing LTT, but are they coexisting at the same time? Possibly it is the same as Tomas and Ashen Sug'ar (or whatever) in the Magician, where they both exist in their own times, and just have some contact. Also, I like to think that Perrin is new, and will maybe be added to the heroes of the horn for his role in this battle.


created: 2002-10-14 22:19:52
subject: <b>An interesting theory but....</b>
body:
I think that Taim is the &quot;modern day&quot;&#8482; equivalent of Demandred.  My thoughts on this issue is that each age has the central characters the &quot;Lews Therin Types&quot;&#8482; and they each have threads tied to them that perform certain roles, and can be replaced if necessary, as in &quot;Person A&quot;&#8482; gets balefired and can't be spun out again.  Thus, Alivia can be the &quot;modern day&quot;&#8482; equivalent of Lanfear in that she is a very powerful female channeler who will help Rand die.  We probably just all need to look for the links between Lews Therin related characters, and Rand related characters and decide who is whose &quot;replacement&quot;&#8482;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JeevesI<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Wielder of &quot;&#8482;&quot;<br />Asha'man extrodinare<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Ruler of the WoT faction at Mass-Defect</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 00:23:12
subject: <b>NOt sure howq I feel about this one, but</b>
body:
In regards to Taim, doesn't any sucessful person create jelously amidst his co workers, and peers?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 00:58:23
subject: <b>The Problem With Taim</b>
body:
...and this is why people can't stop trying to link him to Demandred:<br /><br />Where did he come from?<br /><br />As Moiraine was so adamant in explaining to Rand, there's nobody availible to train him.  That's why he had to resort to a tamed Forsaken!  <br /><br />Now, we know Ishamael's been hanging around, sorta free, and active in the world (only half-trapped).  But would he have the freedom to train Taim?  I say no.  Can he have some influence on the world? Sure, but we can't allow him too much activity or that makes his still-somewhat trapped status too inconsistent.<br /><br />Next, Taim is well-trained and well-practiced and very powerful.  IF Jordan is going to say that he trained himself, then that is a weakness in the story.  To allow Taim to just nurture and hone his power without anybody noticing is just plain stupid, especially over 15 years!!!<br /><br />Okay, so how long before the Taint kicks in?  It seems apparent that the Taint is (was) far more of an issue the more a man channels.  Rand uses it a LOT, and starts to feel it after just a few years.  All those grown men rounded up by Taim survived for years -- until they got formal training and started actually using the Power.  Then they started dropping like flies.  According to Taim's reference (and lying would've been too risky), the pace of people succumbling to it was ramping up.<br /><br />The wild card in this is other False Dragons such as Logain.  Of the very little we've seen, Logain's channeling is as powerful, but less sophisticated than Taim's.  Essentially, Taim appears to be a trained channeler, while Logain seems to be a successful wilder.  <br /><br />It all wraps up to the simple fact that Mazrim Taim knows FAR too much, with way too much practice, too simply be some nobody who popped up.  <br /><br />I do not subscribe to classic Taimandred, but this theory is a new take on it for which there is -some- precedence, and some plausibility within Jordan's world. <br />


created: 2002-10-15 11:48:18
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran cannot be Ishy</b>
body:
SH has shown way to many signs of being a fade.  We have seen his PoV.  And he talks about finding a shadow to slide back to Shayol Ghul in, because he said he was still bound to SG in some way. <br /><br />I disagree with this theory, but I think you raised some points that may be very useful in other arguments.  For, example, your theory could be used to argue the whole Gaidal Cain thing.  It could also argue why Perrin could be the King of Manetheren reborn.  The idea of soul archetypes is a good one, and it does appear that Rand and Lews Therin are two distinctly different identities.<br /><br />However, I disagree with all the examples you provided.<br /><br />a.  Alivia-  Alivia is <i> stronger </i> than Lanfear was, even before Lanfear lost her power.  Lanfear thought this impossible for some reason.<br />By all indications I can see, it appears that Rand is about the same strength as LTT.  The thing is, the Light also had a number of strong channelers.  Alivia could just as easily be a good character from the AOL reborn.<br /><br />b.  Sharina- that one was a reach.  We hardly know anything about her.  Like I said, she could just as easily be a good character reborn.<br /><br />c.  Taim- Aren't 2 people allowed to be a little similar.  Especially if you give it 3,000 years some characters might share some of the same character traits.  There are alot of guys out there with power complexes, and Taim and Sammael happen to be another 2 of them.  I still don't see any reason that Taim would be Demandred-reborn.  <br /><br />However, you have a good combination of ideas, and raised some points, especially when TP is so barren.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-16 21:58:21
subject: <b>Another Candidate</b>
body:
I like the general run of your theory, but don't think it applies to any of the people you named except possibly Taim and Demandred.  I would also point out that Demandred and Taim sharing the same archetype/soul by no means rules out the possiblity of the two of them working together.  Both or either may be true.<br /><br />My idea is that Egwene is the rebirth of Latra Posae Decume, the leader of the female Aes Sedai at the end of the War of Power.  Latra was the leader of the opposition to Lews Therin's plan to seal the Bore, and was also known as Shadar Nor, or Cutter of Shadow, for her role in the War.<br /><br />Now compare this role to what Egwene has done and is destined to do.  She is currently the leader a large faction of Aes Sedai, and if everyone's reading of the viewings and signs is correct, is going to end up as the leader of all Aes Sedai.  She also, according to Elaida's Foretelling, is going to end up venting her anger at the Dragon Reborn.  This seems to be a rather adversarial position in relation to our Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />Egwene, of course, has had more than a little experience in fighting the Shadow, and will most likely have an even greater role doing so in the future, as Latra did in her time.  Thus, I submit that there is a high probability of them having the same soul.


created: 2002-10-19 04:35:59
subject: <b>my responses!</b>
body:
CHUKKA:  the point of my theory is that these &quot;neo-Forsaken&quot; are next-gen rather than replacements.  The old Forsaken are still alive only because they were Sealed in the Bore.<br /><br />DARDIS:  I completely agree, but it is fun to kick the idea around!  Yeah, it would be cool if Perrin is a new Hero rather than a reborn king (I think that idea comes from the eagle flag and the grove of trees prohecy).<br />Whether or not there is a need for a new Demandred, the OLD Demandred was Sealed outside the Pattern for 3,000 years, so he may not have been taken into account during the weaving of the Wheel.<br /><br />DAI LAU and I AM NYNAEVE:  As I recall, Mierin (Lanfear) was on the side of the Light until her love was spurned.  Granedal was also a leader of a purist cult on the side of the Light, and she can't stand it when other Forsaken call her &quot;Maisa,&quot; which was her former name.  So yes, some of the Forsaken were good guys who were soured by events.  I think it is very possible that Alivia will fit this category.<br /><br />SMEGGYWULFF:  I am not a Taimedred person!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I think they are two different aspects of the same soul, like Rand and Lews.<br /><br />ADRIAN:  I really doubt that Lews is existing in his own time in Rand's head.  We would have heard him muttering about &quot;that nutty Rand&quot; in the prologue before he commits suicide.<br /><br />JEEVES|:  Another one that may be a new-old character is Elayne.  She and Ilyena have similar names, are mated with the Dragon, will bear his children, and mean the world to him.<br /><br />BORDERLANDER:  Not to that degree!<br /><br />VASHTI:  Thanks!<br /><br />MATRIMONY CAUTHON:  I do think it's possible that Shaidar Haran can be a Fade AND a neo-Ishamael in one.  Moridin seems to have access to some serious powers that no one else has.<br />As for Alivia being stronger than Lanfear... yeah, but there is a lot of weirdness concerning the strength of female channelers.  I don't think that is enough proof to say she has no connection to Lanfear.<br />Sharina... yeah, she is a reach.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  But what about Malena?  That's one I forgot to mention.  Malena also showed up in the vision Nynaeve had during her ter'angreal test.  She was the new Wisdom in Emond's Field who had usurped Nynaeve's place in a record amount of time, and was making children sick to Heal them.  I now think she may be neo-Moghedien, if she shows up the way Sharina did!<br />And Taim... yes, there is not much proof for the connection other than what has been stated by many WOTmaniacs.  I just doubt that RJ would make the two so PHYSICALLY similar without a good reason.<br /><br />FINALE7:  That's another one; it hadn't occurred to me.  But we already know that characters are reborn in the WoT... what I wonder is if reborn characters can coexist with the previous generation of themselves.<br /><br />Thanks everyone for your responses!


created: 2002-11-11 01:12:04
subject: <b>IM NOT SO SURE</b>
body:
I like it but it cant be true. for one if they were outside the patern the wheel could not spin out the same soul. otherwise balefire witch burns the thread from the patern could be reversed beyond the grave so if the soul was trapped it would not be available for rebirth just as balefire eliminates the soul from the pattern thus making the rebirth of that soul imposible. however I do think the pattern would feel a need to fill the void left by these excluded souls and might very well spin out replacements but they would be a seperate soul all together not a generic rebirth of an already existing soul i feel that the reason that the soul of lews therin is in the back of rands head is that lews therins soul was traped a stated in another theory and rand was this replacment when he was born he had a soul and lews therins jumped in with it so there are actualy two souls in rands body that would explain why lews therins memories remain complete even though we know that reborn souls do not fully remember their former lives if at all so i feel that all charecters such as taim would be new and individual but there for the same role as the forsaken they resemble also i find it unlikley that avilia could be any af those forsaken stand ins based on her age normaly when the wheel spins out such a significant person they would be followed closley by those they are linked to and since we know that lanfear and lews therin were nearly the same age and demandred was older then alivia does not fit the time frame to be one of the replacments but taim does he is very likley a soul spun out to play the part that the wheel thought vacated by demandreds soul i hope that this is considerd so we can lay this subject to rest <br /><br />PLEASE EXCUSE THE HORRIBLE GRAMMAR AND NEAR COMPLETE LACK OF PUNCTUATION <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 00:16:02
subject: <b>Not bad.</b>
body:
I like the idea. It explains a lot, but I'm not sure about Sharina. If you remember, in GH, during Nynaeve's test Lan says something about sending her to Sharina Sedai when he thinks she's not feeling good. I really doubt that Nynaeve would have a reborn Forsaken living within a thousand miles of her. Especially with the whole Mohogdien - Nynaeve conflict, it makes it even more unlikely, ESPECIALLY if Sharina was Mohogdien Reborn. Personally, I waiting for either (a)Moiraine to show up again or (b)seeing who she's spun back in as, in accordance with your theory. And, of course, the look on Nynaeve's face when she does.<br /><br />You've obviously given this a lot of thought, something obviously not shared with some people who post theories on this site. Being a young'un like me, I'm still forming theories of my own with nothing major yet. Still, on my fourth time reading the series, I think your theory will help in developing some of my own. Thanks!<br /><br /><br />Katie . . . The bookworm who gets detention for reading books in class, but doesn't care because you should never let school get in the way of your education


created: 2003-01-13 11:35:30
subject: <b>Not Reborn, He Simply IS Demandred</b>
body:
Not to disagree out of hand, but I am fairly sure that your theory is unbased. From what we know of the Wheel of Time and the souls bound to it as a result of Birgette's storyline and what occured at the battle of Falme, souls are indeed bound to the Wheel as is, complete with memories. Also, while it isn't ever said plainly, it seems that the only souls bound to the Wheel are those who are &quot;good&quot; at their most basic level. This accounts for Artur Hawkwing being bound to the Wheel despite the corruption of his later years, and of course Kinslayer himself being bound and spun out again after leading a similar life with matching descent into madness and evil. <br />Moving on to the title of this post, this is only a pet theory and it probably exists in one form or another on this forum, but since Taim disappeared after being sprung and just happens to show up again with a Seal in his possesion without the slightest hint of madness about him strikes me as just too coincidental. The odds of Taim rediscovering how to test men for the ability to channel are slim as it would have no practical purpose and the trend of learning things by ones self seems to suggest that unless a weave is of immediate and direct use, it isn't likely to cross your mind. Plus, when Taim and Rand had their little pissing contest outside the farm, Jordan being about as subtle as jackhammer mentions that Taim is only marginally weaker than Rand, remind you of another dynamic? Plus Taim training the Asha'man to be loyal to him and not to Rand, his title in the old tongue, I could go on for ages, he is Demandred.


created: 2003-03-02 21:44:12
subject: <b>I Agree, Taim is simply Damendred</b>
body:
<br />Well this is my first post and i'm not an expert; in fact I'm very new to the series having only read through them once, but the thought occurred to me that Taim must be one of the Chosen immediately after he stated he had been channeling for so long. I remember the Forsaken explaining sometime that the Dark One had stopped them from feeling Saidin's taint. This would explain why Taim has been channeling Saidin so long without the ill effects. So yeah, I guess pretty self-explanatory. Taim is at least a Forsaken in disguise, and Damendred for all the previously stated reasons sure sounds like Mazrim Taim. This theory also follows the trend of random Forsaken masquerading as Rand's &quot;affiliates.&quot; <br /><br />So maybe I'm missing the the whole philisophical point of these posts, but it seems to me that this is a little more simple than the Wheel feeling a void of influential people, so as a result it weaves new influential people into the world. I think its more logical that Taim is just plain old Damendred. <br /><br />Eh, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Wow I am a newb.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sheepswallop and bloody buttered onions.&quot;<br /><br />       Heh, good ol' Matrim. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 14:05:36
subject: <b>cool</b>
body:
i'ts an interesting theory but it doesn't sound like anything Jordan would write. You might be correct or you might be wrong but there are some things i deffenetly don't agree with. First of Perrin is not manatherens king reborn i belive Mat is which explains the red eagle that Min saw in one of her viewings. Also it is widly debated about his memory of manatherens battle but i belive he was Manatherens king.


created: 2004-11-16 15:14:05
subject: <b>RJ says no!</b>
body:
RJ says NO!!!  check out the link:  http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html<br />it's almost at the bottom of the page<br /><br />Question:<br /><br />At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. &lt;Maniacal laughter from the shadows!&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan (circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 16:47:38
subject: <b>Many thoughts, they are as follows</b>
body:
I like the general idea, but some examples...<br /><br />How can alivia be lanfear reborn? they met, and fought. wouldnt they merge like luc and isam?<br /><br />Shaidar Haran ishmael reborn? I see one problem... hes kinda a MYRDDRAAL! you'd think a soul would stay human, or stay trolloc, or stay grolm, etc.<br /><br />Someone said demandred in the AoL was a sort of 'false' dragon. not in the sense of the 3rd age false dragons, but still false. this time, in the sense that he was almost good enough to save the world. If rand dies, could taim take over his job? that'd be pretty wierd. and cool, but foremost wierd.<br /><br /><br />good theory, very original!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 20:25:22
subject: <b>firstly,</b>
body:
Perrin^2, you're way off. Just because demandred never &lt;i&gt;posed&lt;i/&gt; as demandred doesnt mean he might not be him reborn, etc, blah blah. if he is reborn demmy, that doesn't even mean demmy knows.<br /><br />anyway, great theory. i pretty much agree with vashti. looks great, could be write or wrong, but in either case, i sure like it. <br /><br />great job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-26 22:48:19
subject: <b>cool</b>
body:
interesting.<br />you had me pretty much the whole way, but for some reason<br />the last little part about only 4 Forsaken just uhhh..<br />i donno.. it kinda threw me, i dont know why, but if that was gone it would be awesome!!!<br />dont get me wrong, its cool,but that last part is annoying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If life gives you lemons, squeeze the juice into a water gun and shoot other people in the eyes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-06-10 10:35:10
subject: <b>to golden eyed warrior</b>
body:
rand is LTT reborn and had his knolledge in his mind even if rand was not aware of it from the begining. when rand was kidnapped by elaida's &quot;embassy&quot; LTT taught rand how to break a tied off shield. so unless taim is demandred reborn or someone else and his soul and body had not reintergrated (which semihage says was a rare ocourance)then you can not say that because rand is untrained but uses complex weaves then so could taim teach himself because in effect rand was trained by LTT before asmodian.<br />


created: 2009-08-13 23:21:19
subject: <b>Not Demandred</b>
body:
I can't say I'm a huge fan of the general idea of the Trinity theory,but I do agree that Taim's memories come from the Taint, and he is a failed case of reintegration.<br /><br />The Shaidar Haran / Moridin idea is interesting, but I think there has to be more to it than that.  Moridin would need to be much more complex than we currently have reason to believe.


created: 2002-10-18 13:02:07
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />Smiling face<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
She thinks that &quot;...if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been chattering behind their hands about her fate.&quot; I believe that this sentence is crucial to the understanding of the foretelling<br /><br />I agree with the above<br /><br />During the escape<br />He has her all tied up<br />Calls her his wife 3 times<br />Selucia (excuse the spelling) shows up<br />Julian asks him what he intends doing with Tuon<br />He says he will take her with them<br /><br />The text that follows is something to the effect<br />That she gives such a smile that Mat shivers<br />And RJ goes on to emphasize that with 'oh how he shivered'<br /><br />That also is crucial to the foretelling<br />'Leaving with Mat as a prisoner'<br /><br />Had the foretelling been just about Mat there would have been a reaction on him calling her his wife. But there wasn't<br /><br />I my opinion the foretelling was much like the dream Egewene had about Gawyn and the forked road<br />Down one road is death and the other is a long life<br /><br />So the foretelling Lydia did had to be to the effect...<br /><br />If Tuon will have personal loss and hardship maybe even live the life of a commoner or become and AS to fulfill the prophecy of TDR kneeling at the crystal throne<br />Else she would be cast out of the blood or die a horrible death<br /><br />So she has a reason to be angry at the foretelling...<br />Because it is bad new no matter what she is in trouble<br />But she is relived when Mat kidnaps her because she knows he is kind to damane<br /><br />Also on the part of her not knowing his link to Rand<br />Tylin knew he was tavreen. And the way all the maids and the rest of Ebu Dar knew of him and Tylin I am pretty sure that Tuon knew he was Tavreen<br />She might have reasoned that if her life was to change Tavreen would have something to do with it<br />So let me own him and make my life easy<br />Let me be in charge<br /><br />The smile was more because she knew what was going to happen now. The fork in the road had passed and she was down one path now.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />till we meet in the wolf dream<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-18 13:57:11
subject: <b>Absolutely</b>
body:
I like this theory, and wholeheartedly agree. Well put<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-18 17:06:09
subject: <b>A few notes</b>
body:
Great theory, but I do have disagree about a few things. Specifically about why people might be chattering behind their hands, and what it might mean. One of the best places to observe the Seanchan and their behavior is during Chapter 32 of the Fires of Heaven - A Short Spear<br /><i><br />&quot;Much has been kept secret about what happened in the lands of the great Hawkwing, Lady Morsa,&quot; the severe-faced woman said. Her dark eyes were as hard on Morsa as they had been on him. &quot;Rumors fly that the Ever Victorious Army has tasted defeat.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Do you now seek truth in rumor, Jalindin?&quot; Morsa asked in a cutting tone. &quot;A Seeker above all should know when to keep silent. The Empress herself has forbidden speech of the<br />Corenne until she calls it again. If you or I speak so much as the name of the city where that expedition landed, our tongues will be removed. Perhaps you would enjoy being tongueless in the Tower of Ravens? Not even the Listeners would hear you scream - for mercy, or pay heed.&quot;</i><br /><br />What this says to me is that there are very good reasons to talk behind a hand, because if you don't, you could have your tongue removed. So the assumption that the foretelling is not of a serious nature and is just some kind of bedroom gossip I think is wrong. Some things in Seanchan you just don't say out loud. TDotNM's defeat could be one of them, as she herself is part of the Corenne.<br /><br />The other part I don't agree with is that the Seanchan Nobility not being evil or cruel. We know that the Empress herself wastes damane. She kills them for the pure gladiator sport of it, by linking a man and a women together. Also, in the same chapter we mentioned above, we have this quote:<br /><br />TFoH - <i>Jalindin broke in harshly. &quot;It is you who forgets herself, Lady Morsa, if you think that you are proof against the Seekers for Truth. I myself have put both a daughter and a son of the Empress, may the Light bless her, to the question, and in gratitude for the confessions I wrenched from them she allowed me to gaze upon her. Think you that our minor House stands higher than the Empress' own children?&quot;</i><br /><br />Well I guess we can't speak for all nobility, but for sure the Empress herself is one mean mother. Who has their children tortured except evil people? I think on the message board there was some talk of the Empress being a darkfriend, I think this is something we should discuss further. If not a darfriend, she is certainly a paranoid power monger.<br /><br />Also, you will notice after every time I used the word Empress I didn't use the cute little &quot;may she live forever&quot; line, basically because I don't want anybody who has her own children put to the question and wants Rand to swear to them to see tomorrow, much less forever. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 00:41:08
subject: <b>First off...</b>
body:
... I'm willing to agree that Lidya's foretelling concerned Tuon's marriage to Mat.  I don't think that conflicts with anything I'm about to say.<br /><br />I completely disagree that Tuon doesn't know about Mat's connection to Rand.  There are hundreds of ways she could find out.  It was no secret in Ebou Dar that he arrived in company with a band of Aes Sedai, so Tuon has to have found out that he's more than just a &quot;pretty&quot;.  We have ample evidence that the Seanchan have spies in the Westlands, any of whom may of heard of the &quot;Band of the Red Hand&quot; and been able to put two and two together.<br /><br />None of that matters... because Semiranath told her.<br /><br />Check out this exchange (WH, What a Veil Hides):<br />Tuon: &quot;I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible.&quot;<br />Anath: &quot;You must be careful, you must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until it is too late for him to escape.&quot;<br /><br />Obviously Anath and Tuon have some kind of secret plan.  I believe it involves using the male a'dam on Rand.  I'm willing to listen to alternative explanations, but I refuse to believe that Anath's comment was meaningless.<br /><br />Given that they're plotting together, I find it very easy to believe that Anath would tell Tuon all about Mat and his connection to the DR.  It would also explain why no effort was made to interfere with Mat's escape plan, even though he made it obvious to everyone he was leaving.<br /><br />I'm convinced that Tuon represents an important and complex new plotline in the series.  One which readers are definately not paying enough attention to.<br /><br />For more information, check out the theory &quot;Why is Tuon Smiling?&quot; in the DOTNM section.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 04:16:28
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
the Foretelling was just asimple 'you're gettinbg a new hubby'<br /><br />being th dotnm, and the leader of the return, that would cause a few comments... especially to a 'descendant of a thief'<br /><br />hell if i was forced into a marriage id smile to if the person in question turned out to be a wonderful person.<br /><br />forget what she knows for a sec, mat IS one of the best (or  is he the best??) generals alive, connections with the  DR, he's smart good looking etc...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 05:58:02
subject: <b>NICE</b>
body:
It's about time I heard a coherent theory.   Good job, I agree except for the part where Tuon smiles- too many secrets.  But we'll find out in Crossroads of Twilight.  <br />Good Job!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 06:59:30
subject: <b>yeah, y'all</b>
body:
If there was any clue to any person in the fortelling, it makes sense that it is through ravens, given Tuon's interest in the ring and ashanderi.


created: 2002-10-21 00:50:01
subject: <b>i RECKON IT WAS MORE SIMPLE</b>
body:
&quot;YOU WILL FALL FOR A MAN WHO IS A COMMONER, WHO GAMBLES DRINKS, WHO IS A WOMANISER AND IS IRRESPONSIBLE.&quot;<br /><br />I agree that Anath and Tuon are planning something nasty involing the male adan.<br /><br />Finally I agree that Tuon has a good heart. But I think she's more then that. She has a sharp mind, a fire spirit tempered by determination and she'd kick ass in a fight. Mat just made her look bad because he is the deadliest warrior living. <br /><br />ANYWAY I LOOK FORWARD TO WHAT HAPPENS WITH HER CHARACTER.


created: 2002-10-21 10:53:20
subject: <b>You will...</b>
body:
... meet the Fox in this land.  You will marry him, and through his aid become Emperess.<br /><br />Plenty to explain the interest in Mat and reason enough to hide the fortelling.


created: 2002-10-23 00:19:17
subject: <b>tuon is semirhage</b>
body:
I have absolutely no evidence to back that up<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-17 15:51:27
subject: <b>Very Thorough</b>
body:
I like your theory overall, but I would like to hear if it has developed with the release of Crossroads of Twilight, and also how you think Anath/Semirhage can further influence things with Tuon in her present position.  When she finds her, of course.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gesyka</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 02:24:40
subject: <b>To Gesyka, and Anyone Else Who's Interested, from the Theory Author</b>
body:
In response to your question as to whether this theory changes with Crossroads of Twilight, it does, somewhat. I personally feel that COT lends extra support to this theory.<br /><br />When I wrote this theory, COT wasn't out yet. Using the information from WH, I infered that Tuon seemed (to me) to be interested in Mat's ring, though I couldn't prove it for certain. However, in COT (Chapter 3), Tuon mentions this ring, thus indicating that it was indeed important. From further conversation, it is also indicated that Tuon thinks that Mat's ashandarei is important as well.<br /><br />Also in Chapter 3, Tuon asks Mat if he remembers Hawkwing's face. Now we know that he does, thanks to all the memories that the Eelfinn gave him. Still, why would Tuon ask this question. She couldn't have found out about Mat's memories from anyone, because he hasn't told anyone. Unless, of course, there is some prophecy or whatever about it that Anath/Semirhage might be aware of, but I personally think that is extremely unikely. Besides, Anath imparting this sort of information entails the problems I outlined in my theory. Most importantly, Tuon didn't learn this from anyone else, not Tylin, not Beslan, not rumours, no one. Given this, it is possible she learned something of this nature from the foretelling. If we believe this, then the foretelling must indeed be about Mat.<br /><br />As to how Anath/Semirhage can influence Tuon from this point on, I have absolutely no idea. COT doesn't even tell us where she is. You'll have to come up with your own theory on that one.


created: 2003-07-28 22:27:58
subject: <b>Prophecy in CoT</b>
body:
Good theory--has been my belief from the beginning.  CoT did indeed verify the theory.<br /><br />Noal quoting the Kariethan Cycle to Matt in Tuon`s presence of Matt`s ties to the Nine Moons Empire was icing on the cake.<br /><br />I can`t see Anath giving her this information, so it must have been the damane.<br /><br />   would love to hear Perrin`s role in the Prophecy-maybe in bk 11.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-20 13:23:01
subject: <b>Wellllll</b>
body:
I'm not so sure about all this.  I mean, I think you lay out a good theory, but think about how Nynaeve fought that compulsion- she's got incredible strength of mind.  now the only other person in the series who has that sort of strength of mind also is Suian.  Her will and mind is more stubborn and strong perhaps than Nynaeve, and it's very hard for me to believe that she could be put under compulsion so easily.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-20 13:51:58
subject: <b>About Siuan</b>
body:
Admittedly, Siuan's strength of will is a problem.  I find it a little strange that she thinks she'll have trouble disciplining Laras, though.  <br /><br />My answers to this problem are a little weak, so I didn't include them in my theory.  I think a strong mind would be less likely to resist a suggestion that wouldn't trouble its character.  We've seen mainly very heavy uses of Compulsion, but we know there are more subtle ones, such as the hybrid Verin uses, or Moghedien's command that Liandrin live.  I wouldn't think Siuan would naturally resist being compelled to not interfere with the Mistress of Kitchens and her cooking, for instance.  She might not realize the Compulsion unless all hell broke loose in the kitchens and she found herself not wanting to do anything about it.  Mesaana probably wouldn't want to use any more blatant Compulsion than that around the Tower, anyway.<br /><br />But, that's all very speculative.  It all boils down to the fact that I wanted to include the instance with Siuan in my theory, as it corroborates the one with Min.


created: 2002-10-20 14:00:16
subject: <b>What about Min's viewings?</b>
body:
My major problem with Laras being Mesaana is that Min sees images around those who can channel all the time.  It becomes blurred when they are actually channeling so that she cannot actually make out the viewings.<br /><br />If Laras is Mesaana then Min would have noted that she had had related viewings.  No mentions of viewings means that it is not very likely.<br /><br />Well that's my 2&#162;.<br /><br />Nice theory otherwise.<br /><br />Geer


created: 2002-10-20 14:23:52
subject: <b>Min</b>
body:
That's a good point.  I'm walking out the door and do not have time to research at the moment, but does Min have any viewings of Dashiva?  Or opportunity?  He may be one disguised Forsaken Min doesn't have anything to say about.


created: 2002-10-20 15:10:00
subject: <b>Viewings</b>
body:
I don't remember Min having any Viewings when Moghedien was in disguise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-20 15:35:06
subject: <b>Well done</b>
body:
I am not sure if Laras is Mesaana but this is exactly the type of theory that we should see.  Well presented in a clear, linear way with good examples.  I had not really thought about Laras being Mesaana and this theory has me close to convinced.  The other objections raised in the comments, while valid, have viable explanations.  For example, if Min were under compulsion it is possible even likely that she could be compelled to not think about her viewings w/ regard to Laras.  I like this theory.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-20 16:28:42
subject: <b>Good one</b>
body:
I really like this theory! Well thought out and nicely presented.  Also has anyone thought of the possibility of the connection with this idea and the &quot;Evil Min&quot; Theory.  This could have been the starting point of the Forsaken's potential use of compulsion on Min.  The whole thing still seems a little too far fetched for me, but ideas like yours just seem to make it fall into place.  <br /><br />Evil Min theory:<br />http://www.runningstone.com/wot/data/theories.html


created: 2002-10-20 17:39:14
subject: <b>no way!</b>
body:
Laras went through a huge phase where she was giggling and dressing Min up as &quot;Elmindreda&quot; the airhead.  That just ain't Forsaken type of behavior.  Nope!<br /><br />And, as someone else said, it was never mentioned that Min saw auras around her.<br /><br />But your theory was well-presented.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-21 02:12:32
subject: <b>It's a well thought out theory but I don't thing so. (NM)</b>
body:
(NM)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-21 21:21:47
subject: <b>In response to Geer...</b>
body:
&quot;My major problem with Laras being Mesaana is that Min sees images around those who can channel all the time. It becomes blurred when they are actually channeling so that she cannot actually make out the viewings.<br /><br />If Laras is Mesaana then Min would have noted that she had had related viewings. No mentions of viewings means that it is not very likely.&quot;<br /><br />According to Moiraine, Min can &quot;see pieces of the Pattern.&quot; [TEotW, Strangers and Friends] There was a recent theory [Mazrim Taim is Demandred Reborn] that the Forsaken have been granted immortality by being removed from the Pattern.  They can still affect the pattern in the same way that the DO can.  (I didn't agree with the rest of theory about Demandred, but the premise appears solid to me.) <br /><br />If they have been removed from the pattern by the DO, then Min would not be able to have viewings of them.<br />


created: 2002-10-22 00:19:01
subject: <b>Occan's Razor</b>
body:
By Occam's Razor, we should take the theory that requires the least playing around with things. In a word, that Laras is NOT Mesaana, because Min saw no auras. She sees constant auras around channelers. She saw them around Dashiva, because he was hiding as an Asha'man. She would have commented if she hadn't, because it is unheard if not impossible for channelers to _not_ have constant auras. She saw them around Moghedien when she was disguised as Marigan - just glimpses, but still an aura. She even comments on the fact that not many people have auras all the time, i.e. this is unusual. She has not met any other disguised Forsaken. So if she did not see auras around Laras, then she cannot be Mesaana. Occam's Razor. This has in fact already been used as evidence, to wit that if Min saw a non-channeler without auras they could not be Demandred in disguise. Why should it be different here?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 01:33:37
subject: <b>Mesaana's guise</b>
body:
If Mesaana is Laras, and Laras has been around for awhile, then Mesaana would need to weave a disguise to assume her new identity.  But somewhere (I'm not a researcher) Alviarin is at Mesaana's feet and sees through Mesaana's disguise, thinking to remember what dress to look for.  This means Mesaana's identity in the Tower does NOT use the Power. Rather, she looks like her old self (supposedly recognizable to Rand with his LTT memories) but has taken on a separate identity.  Thus, not Laras.  But I like this analysis of compulsion nonetheless.  If it wasn't for Alviarin, I would agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 05:47:59
subject: <b>Halima</b>
body:
If I am not mistaken Min has only seen a couple of auras around Halima and she is a disguised forsaken.  Interesting theory I'm riding the fence for now though.


created: 2002-10-22 11:33:51
subject: <b>Min does not make a good Channeler detecter.</b>
body:
Min does not make a good Channeler detecter.  There are at least two instances where Min should have recognized someone immediately from their viewings, Marigan and Birgitte.  Min never mentions anywhere that she saw more viewings than she expected around either these characters yet she should have.  She did have &lt;i&gt;a&lt;/a&gt; viewing of Marigan (along with Nicole and Areina) but that is the only one as far as we know. <br /><br />If Min can miss two cases why not a third!<br /><br />On a unrelated note, I don't think that Min EVER saw Halima.  Halima came way after Min (or Nynaeve and Elayne) left.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 18:05:45
subject: <b>Min, Min, Min...</b>
body:
First off, great theory.<br /><br />Second, it seems that the credibility of this theory depends a lot on Min. I think that her viewings are a moot point.<br /><br />Assuming Messana knew that Min has viewings and the nature of her viewings (wasn't Messana the teacher in the AoL), couldn't she have prempted any whistle-blowing with a little compulsion? Ala: the veiwings you see around me are normal, and there is nothing out of the ordinary about them.<br /><br />As far as Laras' playfulness being out of Messana's character, I think the only female Forsaken that lacked a sense of humor was Semirhage. Even Moghedian's &quot;Live&quot; command to Liandrin is funny. I mean look at her! No, really, it indicates a sense of humor, albeit a dark one. (get it)<br /><br />Finally, about the strength of character of a person being an issue, i think it is another case of what compulsion was used and what purpose. Moghedian says that if you compell someone to do something they would do anyway, like live or not undermine the head cooks authority, it would be nearly impossible to break that. Now being compelled to believe &quot;I'm a harmless butterfly and we've never met&quot; could be broken; it brought Nyneave to tears as she had resolved to do the exact opposite.<br /><br />This theory has me convinced: Messana is Laras. The only thing I'll miss is being able to say Messannelle. It rolled of the tongue. Larassana?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 22:33:16
subject: <b>Mask of mirrors</b>
body:
Where does it say that messanna is a woman of the same immense girth of Laras?<br /><br />If Messanna does not share a body like Laras's, then her illusion would be peirced every time she shoulders past a scullion.<br /><br />I am rather of the opinion that all of the forsaken are slender, fit, and handsome at least, as well as the most powerful channelers.<br /><br />Un less someone can show me that Messanna as Laras can disguise herself effectively, I have to vote &quot;no.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 00:14:05
subject: <b>its a disguise</b>
body:
Mesaana would obviously have to disguise the fact that she could channel from the multitudes of Aes Sedai - so why not the images that go with channeling ability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 11:51:41
subject: <b>Vashti-</b>
body:
Lanfear wasn't bumping into a whole lot of people as Kadere, Laras is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 00:33:09
subject: <b>laras/lanfear/keille</b>
body:
This has nothing to do with Laras....lol<br /><br />I think that Lanfear was actually disguised as Keille Shaogi...(Hadnan Kadere was her darkfriend merchant companion who she skinned at the docks just before attacking Aviendha and Egwene).<br /><br />I suppose its possible that a skilled channeller could use a weave of air to give the impression of a body where there is none, but RJ said somewhere about the mask of mirrors that the weave generally fitted the same size body or something...anyone have anything more detailedon that? can't remember where i read it.


created: 2002-10-24 05:52:09
subject: <b>I'll say it again</b>
body:
There's no need for this Min viewing debate.  Read my post above.  Mesaana wears a MOM with Alviarin in secret, thus doesn't use one with her Tower identity, thus is not Laras.  Laras is well known by all, so Mesaana would have to use a MOM.  Does anybody see this besides me?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 07:09:41
subject: <b>Something that always struck me as odd..</b>
body:
When Mesaana appears to Alviarin she hides her face and her ability to channel, right. Why would she do that? why not appear in full strength? RJ has reportedly said that it is possible to hide your strength paritally and those who beleive in Danelle as Mesaana has taken this as &quot;proof&quot; of their theory. Why would Messana walk around as Danelle with partial stregth, appear in full strength (presumably)at the Forsaken meetings and the finally hide her Strength completely from Alviarin? that seems a bit unnessecary to me. Is'nt it more likely that she is mascarading as a known non-channeler in the Tower and the only one we know is Laras.


created: 2002-10-24 13:37:58
subject: <b>to bobsledai (sp?)</b>
body:
&quot; There's no need for this Min viewing debate. Read my post above. Mesaana wears a MOM with Alviarin in secret, thus doesn't use one with her Tower identity, thus is not Laras. Laras is well known by all, so Mesaana would have to use a MOM. Does anybody see this besides me?&quot;<br /><br />I don't see this.  If Messy was hiding as someone in the tower, then she would obviously use a different disguise when she was with Alviarin.  Nothing says that she has to appear as herself.<br /><br />Of course, another option is that Messana could have posed as both Laras and Danelle.  A brown who is known as a researcher would probably be isolated from most Aes Sedai.  Therefore, if Messy needed two different identities to finish the work she needed to finish, such as ordering an extra suprlus of tower workers, then she could have theoretically used both identities because her brown identity wasn't a very public figure.<br /><br />It is just a possibility that no one mentioned.<br /><br />Good theory, by the way.  I am not sure if I agree with it yet, but I liked your insite and presentation.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 15:39:47
subject: <b>Ture, but..</b>
body:
My point is that Alviarin says to look for a copper color pattern on a dress, or something or other, what Mesaana was wearing behind the Mask.  I assumed (wrongly?) that RJ would take this to a place where Alviarin discovers Mesaana's Tower identity.  Perhaps not, perhaps it was just Alviarin's thoughts, nothing for the plot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 10:07:08
subject: <b>About those ellipses</b>
body:
In rereading EOTW I came across another instance of ellipses and a character using anger to form a coherent thought. It happens in a dream that Rand has while staying in Baerlon - the one where he is offered a goblet of wine. Rand finds is hard to finish a thought and there are several elipses (he's not even sure why he's at an inn). The first time he finishes a thought is when he gets angry (I think it was about his father). Anyway, this could be one of the first example of Compulsion - Ishy/DO using it to get Rand to drink.


created: 2002-11-02 01:36:45
subject: <b>Thanks.</b>
body:
I was pretty sure there were unannounced instances of Compulsion before tSR, but I didn't take the time to find them.  I just worded my submission rather carefully. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-06 03:19:18
subject: <b>compulsion was used in books two and three</b>
body:
book 2 in fal dara linadrian used compulsion on the kings sister to have her look for rand, and she tried to use it on rand in the dungeon right after fain had broke out.<br /><br />book 3 it was used on julian sandar to get him to betray egwene, elayne and nynave end of book he said he felt what he was doing was wrong, knew it was wrong, but had to obey,.


created: 2006-07-11 08:26:47
subject: <b>Tricky, tricky..</b>
body:
I've always thought Laras to be Mesaana, but have never been able to finds the words needed to express my opinion in the way you have here. I was kinda sure before, and now I'm totally sure it's her!<br /><br />Yeah, the MOM would have a hard time keeping from falling apart in the WT kitchens, but Kadere's fat companion, who was Lanfear in disguise, bumped into people without being found out. Plus, for all we know the real Laras is hidden away somewhere in an abandoned store-room or something so Mesaana can compel her back to the kitchens at need.<br /><br />As to Min's viewings, I agree with those who say that using her as a channeler-detector is like using swiss cheese to hold water. They are to unreliable. And for all we know, Mesaana HAS compelled Min into not seeing her. She is kinda powerful, after all<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, well-written theory that I stand behind fully!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;Karede frowned. Tylins Toy was the general? Were they playing a game with him?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 19:38:39
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
if dyelin were to suggest that elayne should make him head of the body guard then yes it would suggest that she is in on the plan...but maybe she isnt in on the plan. the fact is we really dont know...im gonna have to reread that chapter.


created: 2002-10-22 20:03:14
subject: <b>I like the idea, but</b>
body:
why would Dyelin get stabbed and practically die if she was in on the plot? I mean, if they wanted to make it realistic, they could have nicked her arm a bit instead of bascially running her through...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 22:00:15
subject: <b>I agree with Gena on this one....</b>
body:
....and another point, as you have mentioned in your theory, Elayne didn't order her lunch, Reene Harfor organised it.  This would mean either Reene's complicit in this plot, or the servant who brought the tray was, and allowed Dyelin to exchange the tea for forkroot tea.<br />  You've raised some good points, there certainly does need to have been quite a high level of organisation within the palace for this to have come off the way it did, but I disagree that the timing was quite as essential as you think.<br />  Hanlon would have been aware of when the others entered the throne room, and would have entered soon afterwards.  Obviously, they'd simply been ordered to kill Elayne, as they are all dead themselves in the end.  Elayne would have been told about Hanlon's actions in any circumstances, I think, and so would probably have raised Hanlon to some position of authority as a consequence.<br />  I think the first assassin stuck his head around the corner to see whether or not Elayne had taken any of the tea yet, and if she was showing signs of its effects.  <br />  Dyelin's reaction is a little odd, but maybe she simply expected an attack to follow on the heels of Elayne's incapacitation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 23:17:55
subject: <b>I dunno...</b>
body:
But I'm not sure if it's because I really HOPE Dyelin's not in on it...it would be nice to have SOMEONE trustworthy around instead of everybody being a traitor.  <br /><br />More importantly, I believe Daved was specifically aided by a channeler. His sword flew 'like something from a gleeman's tale'.  Throwing sword's is pretty difficult, esp. for a killing blow.  Could it have been guided by Air? I think so.<br /><br />Otherwise, far, far too much is left up to chance, and that's not something that would be part of the plan.<br /><br />As for Dyelin...in a supporting comment, one could explain her away that the people she's allied with (if that's true) are evil. They'd have no compunction letting her die. Anyways, I hope that's not the case simply because all the unexpected darkfriends and traitors is getting a little wearisome and depressing.  I kinda like Dyelin :-)<br />


created: 2002-10-22 23:19:52
subject: <b>WELL DONE</b>
body:
Something about that scene always struck me as being a bit odd. I never realised that Dyelin had drawn her dagger before the assassins had entered. The fact she ran to be by Elayne seems a bit odd. She's a composed person and I can't see her doing this about an army weeks away.<br /><br />I've never trusted that woman. She supposedly arrested the nobles supporting herfor the throne. I've always seen this as a feint. I think her real intentions are shown earlier in the book when Elayne begins forming an army and Dyelin says in a troubled voice &quot;I had hoped to avoid civil war.&quot;<br /><br />I don't know if she's a darkfriend but she's definately not Elaynes friend.


created: 2002-10-23 00:07:33
subject: <b>I'd like to think that Dyelin's good</b>
body:
She has stood by Elayne an awful lot. If she wanted the throne she could have had it a thousand times before Elayne got back. But then again - maybe she knew Elayne was alive (a df?). I always thought she pulled out the knife in panic to defend Elayne. But you're right it was poison not attackers - and it is doubtful she would have thought that bad guys were coming unless she was in on it - why would they use poison and an assasin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 00:36:37
subject: <b>Rand's POV's...</b>
body:
... when he was in Caemlyn suggest that he never fully trusted Dyelin.  He noted that she said all the right things, but could be playing both sides.  I always thought RJ threw that in as a red herring, to make us suspicious.  It does show that her loyalty has yet to be proven.<br /><br />I've always been suspicious of the fact that Dyelin was stabbed with an unpoisoned dagger.<br /><br />Nonetheless, I'm also sick of every second character turning out to be a DF.  It's like every time we meet a new AS, we assume she's BA until proven otherwise.  It's getting that way with everybody now.  C'mon, Reene Harfor the Darkfriend?<br /><br />I'm going to hope that Dyelin IS loyal.  Someone has to be...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 01:29:34
subject: <b>I dont know..</b>
body:
I think that Dyelin's reaction was completely explainable: when an assassination attempt is made with poison, it doesnt always work, so someone would be sent in to finish the job. Dyelin moved towards Elayne to protect her.<br />Having Dyelin in the room would have complicated the plan if she were involved. It would have been much easier to have someone expendable, such as a servant, witness the attempt and get stabbed, rather than practically running Dyelin through.


created: 2002-10-23 04:09:45
subject: <b>I'm not too sure....</b>
body:
I think Dyelin's loyalty is yet to be proven but with the number of DF's already in place at the palace it seems unlikely that Dyelin also is one of them. I don't remember there being a Dyelin POV but nothing surrounding her has shown that she is a DF yet and I don't like having to be this suspicious of her... Maybe she just panicked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Silver"><i>Harsh world be damned,<br />let's make a stand...</i></font> <br /><br /><font color="orange">Saknar Korybj&#246;rnen&#8482;<br /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 06:53:03
subject: <b>I think Dyelin is innocent...</b>
body:
I think that when Elayne says she has been poisoned and Dyelin should get help, that holding her beltknife is a perfectly resonable thing to do - there are assassins somewhere close who have managed to get to an Aes Sedai for crying out loud!<br />  Also I like Dyelin... irrational reasoning but I really hope that she's loyal!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Green and Mat fan! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 06:54:33
subject: <b>with respect to Dyelin</b>
body:
I feel that there are three options:<br /><br />1. that she is a darkfriend.<br />2. that she is just after the throne.<br />3. she is sincere.<br /><br />There is too much iffy behaviour on her part to even consider option 3, so in fact there are only two options.


created: 2002-10-23 07:28:37
subject: <b>she paniced</b>
body:
she could just have paniced. if I would see someone beeing poisoned I would like to have something to defend myself with. expecially when it&#180;s an aes sedai who's been poisoned,noone can hurt them (or so they think) I really hope she is innosent because Elayne has to have someone she can trust! (And I like her) If she didn't like and trust rand that doesn't mean she is df. allmoust noone likes the dragon reborn. And he meant to GIVE the lion throne to Elayne!!! There are better reasons not to like the dragon than beeing a df.


created: 2002-10-23 10:05:07
subject: <b>enough Df already</b>
body:
i agree every second character seems to be a DF. i dont think Dyelin was supposed to be there. thats why the assasins hesitated. he didnt know if dyelin was AS or not. <br /><br />the servants who brought the food are the ones who tipped the plotters off.<br /><br />why so much suspicion about dyelin. she could be the next queen by right, she doesnt act out on it because she fears rand. rand leaves and she has the rebel nobles arrested. she is the only person left and could be queen. except she liked morgase and is willing to give elayne a chance.<br /><br />believe me if elayne cant lead she will step in, and she has a right to worry about the welfare of her people. plus, the fear of the dragon puts a lot of plans on hold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 10:29:08
subject: <b>WRONG!</b>
body:
First off, she might need a few weeks to figure out what she was going to do against a HUGE army....as in she barely has a royal gaurd and the could easily take the country from her if they wished! Second, She might have grabbed her dagger because she was worried they would make sure they finished the job? We have no hint of Dylin even wishing harm to Elayne not to mention the lack of being a darkfriend. Maybe she is just a loyal Andoran who believes Elayne should be queen?? Also, from my reading I've noticed that RJ doesn't usually hide darkfriends without a lot of hints. This is one case where she is who she seems to be!<br /><br />Poisonpooh


created: 2002-10-23 10:44:09
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I have to agree with Gena Sedai and baphomet23 on this. Somehow getting herself almost killed to defend Elayne after supposedly poisoning her doesn't ring true. I also believe that she's loyal to Elayne. With all the people initially willing to support her claim to the Lion Throne, Dyelin could have become Queen easily, but she supported Elayne from the start.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 10:55:54
subject: <b>about running her though</b>
body:
One thing a lot of you people seem to be overlooking, in your arguments that if Dyelin was part of the plot, why would they run her though, is quite simple. I don't really think the guys with the knives knew they were going to be killed. I doubt that Hanlon was like &quot;OK here is the deal, you guys go in there and try to kill Elayne, then I will come in and kill all of you&quot; and the assassins would be like &quot;sounds like a good plan boss&quot;. I don't know if Dyelin is a good guy or a bad guy, but some of the counter arguments make no sense, if Dyelin is working with Hanlon, the assassins wouldn't hesessarly know not to kill her unless they knoew she was in on it. I guess that prob argues for the side that Dyelin is not a DF or in on it. Because for this theory to hold though, Dyline and Hanlon had to be working together, and Hanlon and the Assassins were working together, but not the Assassins and Dyelin. I should prob reread the entire scene before I even comment though... too late<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 11:22:16
subject: <b>i don't think so</b>
body:
i don't think that Dyelin would risk her own life in a planned false assasination attempt where she herself was hurt. For one thing a DF would not want to run the risk of losing her promised reward from the DO for dying to early and it doesn't make sense that if she was a DF, she would want an Aes Sedai to heal her.


created: 2002-10-23 13:35:29
subject: <b>It doesnt work</b>
body:
Why would the assassins let themselves get killed? They can't have been working together with Hanlon, who happens to be wearing a Royal Guard uniform or something like that. They would not know someone wanted to kill them. I'm sure I would prefer to be alive to collect my immortality reward than dead. No, they were not told they were going to die, only that they should kill Elayne. Dyelin just happened to be in the way, so they stabbed her. the poison on the dagger was to prevent an Aes sedai healing Elayne, so there's no point in wasting it on Dyelin.


created: 2002-10-23 13:46:53
subject: <b>She is no DF</b>
body:
Lets just think about this.  The top two contenders for the throne of Andor are in the same room.  Dyelin sees that Elayne will soon be out of it, and because she is a good person and the second in line she decides to defend elayne and herself.  If we assume that Dyelin knows nothing about the assasination, when Elayne SEDAI becomes unable to defend herself possibly already going to die then Dyelin will be the next to die or be removed.  Hanlon is a devious DF by his POV on entering Camelyn, so this whole plan probably is his.  He told the assassins to kill any and all in the room after elayne drank the tea.  He was going to kill them anyway.  And we still do not know who the Black sister is in the palace, and i am sure she would have overheard Elayned, and Nyneve talking about the forkroot and how fast it worked.  Personally,  Dyelin I hope is a good light fearing character.  Of all the nobles we have met she wempers the least and does not think to highly of herself.  Anyway that's what I think<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 11:14:34
subject: <b>How can Dylin signal the Assasins?</b>
body:
If the assasins are close enough to see Dylin touch her dagger then they can see Elayne drink the tea!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 13:16:26
subject: <b>Dyelin not a DF</b>
body:
I'm in the not a DF camp.  I think RJ is trying to misdirect here.  As someone else has alluded to, there aren't DF's under every rock.  I beleive that Dyelin is merely an opportunist.  If Elayne does not succeed, she's right there to step in, gaining both her original support and because she supports Elayne, Elayne's supporters as well.   If Elayne does become queen, Dyelin has placed herself in a second only to the queen position.  While this is typical Forsaken behavior, it is not DF behavior.<br /><br />I think her initial comment to Elayne says perfectly where she's at.  She asked Elayne if she came to receive Andor's crown from Rand, and when Elayne remarked that it was her's by right, and she took it from no man, Dyelin put her support behind Elayne.  Dyelin is for Andor, and recognizes that Elayne is best fo the crown. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> May the pips be with you  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Asha'man Jasin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Seanchan supporter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-24 18:26:49
subject: <b>dunno...</b>
body:
Why would Dyelin suspect a physical attack after a poisoning?  Kind of defeats the whole concept of a typical poisoning, doesn't it?  She has no reason to know about forkroot, and she doesn't seem like the type to go to her dagger at the first sign of danger.  She's a noble, not an Aiel.<br /><br />If she turns out to be innocent, I'd chalk it up to writer error.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You me when I think really think about it<br />    Are the same&quot; Ikkyu Sojun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Joy is in the ears that hear,<br />    Not in the mouth that speaks.&quot; Giantish saying <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 20:38:05
subject: <b>Reason Why:</b>
body:
Because, if she's not part of the plot, then the attack on the Queen of Andor is an attack ON Andor...hardly a surprise given the approaching armies.  And if it is meant to weaken Andor, then there would be attempts upon ALL the leadership of Andor.<br /><br />And if Elayne goes down, Dyelin is next in line.  Heck, it could have been self-defense!  If she's innocent, it's certainly an easy assumption for her to make that she is in iminent danger. She's a witness, afterall.<br /><br />Please keep in mind that Daved said it happened exactly as planned -- he is Capt. of the Queen's Guard. It was NOT an attempt to kill Elayne, it was an attempt to -appear- to kill Elayne. <br /><br />Dyelin could've had the crown if she wanted it, even before Elayne showed up.  Enough of the nobles were willing to go along with her for it.  Remember, House Trakand never had a strong majority.  Morgase had to marry into House Taringail to solidify her claim.  Since Rahvin's tenure, House Trakand has lost credibility.  Morgase would likely have faced a revolution if she stayed or tried to reassert her authority, and the credibility severely weakened Elayne's claim as well.  In fact, it is likely that only Dyelin's staunch support enabled it.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-10-25 00:18:21
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
If she was involved in the plot, then she would have known that she had no need to draw her knife. If she really wanted to kill Elayne, she would have. If she knew about the plot and wanted to prove her loyalty to Elayne, then she would have waited a bit longer before drawing her knife, and wouldn't have made Elayne scared of her. The only possible reason she would have drawn her knife is if she had no idea about the plot, doen't want to kill Elayne, and was just trying to protect her.


created: 2002-10-25 10:25:39
subject: <b>Back a ways up ....</b>
body:
Someone mentioned that the guards sword flew perfectly, now we do know that he is a very devious df and most likely there was some channeling going on to steady/aim the thrown sword.  Now off onto another quick rant, does forkroot affect your ability to see weaves?  I think not, so that means that the canneling was a man channeling so does that mean that the guard (cant remember his name although ive read it like a hundred times between the theory and the comments) is a dreadlord?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-26 16:48:06
subject: <b>Why Does Elayne have to be the Witness?</b>
body:
I would have to disagree. Your theory is mainly based on the assumption that the conspirators felt that Elayne herself had to witness Hanlon's rescue attempt.<br /><br />This is not so. Furthermore, Elayne never did see Hanlon anyways. Nowhere in the chapter (when we are reading Elayne's point of veiw right as she realizes that she has been drugged) does it give us reason to beleive that Elayne witnessed Hanlon rescuing her.<br /><br />In fact, we do not learn of the scene until after Birgitte explains it to Elayne afterwards.<br /><br />And for that matter, why would it be at all necessary for Elayne herself to witness Daved Hanlon rescuing her? True, there has to be a witness, but it doesn't have to be Elayne. It could be anyone who Elayne and her allies would beleive. And this does happen. Since Birgitte is explaining the scene to Elayne, it basically means that someone (other than Hanlon himself) was indeed there to witness the events on hand. Case closed.<br /><br />Besides... Its getting a bit annoying that like every other character is a DF. I would hope that Dyelin is not a traitor as well.<br />


created: 2002-10-28 16:51:25
subject: <b>No, not Dyelin...</b>
body:
If someone croaked to me, &quot;I've...been poisoned!&quot; in the middle of lunch, I'd grab the nearest pain-inducing item on hand, too, and not because I want to finish off the job. Basically, Elayne's words would have alarmed Dyelin, and her gripping her knife hilt is no doubt an INSTINCTIVE action. Yes, Jordan's been churning out Darkfriends like there's no tomorrow, but the Last Battle is coming and it's time for them to pop out of the woodwork. That doesn't mean a powerful Andoran noble is one of the baddies! Dyelin just happened to be in the wrong place at a crappy time. As for her storming in--any decent noble would want to discuss with her/his ruler about a military threat as soon as it's uncovered, wouldn't you agree?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Back off Dyelin! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If she is a DF, I will pull my hair out by the roots! (a la Nynaeve...now THERE'S a scene everyone's been waiting for)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 11:15:16
subject: <b>So, when...</b>
body:
...is Elayne going to sit down and ask the question, &quot;If they could put forkroot in my tea, why not something actually leathal?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 04:01:08
subject: <b>Dyelin is not a DF</b>
body:
If Dyelin is a DF why would Hanlon's rescue plan be needed at all?  Dyelin is next in line for the crown.  Kill Elayne and have the DF Dyelin as Queen.  Dyelin has more noble support and as much or more popular support than Elayne. <br />The reason the plan was needed is because the next in line is NOT a DF.  Killing Elayne means Dyelin takes the throne, and Dyelin could be considered a more capable ruler than the much younger Elayne.<br />Also, I believe Dyelin was there by design, not happenstance.  This double's Hanlons chance to rescue at least one of the women in line for the throne.  I know this makes the plan even more complicated, but did we ever find out where/when/how Dyelin got the info on the borderland armies?  It's been a while since I've read WH. <br />


created: 2002-11-09 12:51:05
subject: <b>Dyelin is loyal.</b>
body:
Everyone in Randland grabs their belt knife when they get stressed. Why is it such a big deal that Dyelin did it?<br />Then she calls for help, and attacks an assassin, who slashes her, then STABS her. If this was going to be faked, the slash was plenty. <br />Finally, Dyelin had enough support to take Andor in the first place, but supported Elayne the whole time. It was a good scene, it fits in with the rest of the story, and people are trying too hard to find twists.<br />(BTW, it was obviously Bela who put the forkroot in the tea, anyway).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 00:55:36
subject: <b>tempting...</b>
body:
...but no.  All of Dyelin's questionable actions can be explained logically.  Why did she grab her belt knife? It is a natural reaction when in danger.  And for those of you who think she had no reason to consider herself in danger, you have to consider what the situation would be like from Dyelin's perspective.  To her mind, the most likely culprit would be one of the other contenders for the throne.  Kidnapping and even murder are not too uncommon in a Succession.  It would not be enough for one of them to do away with Elayne, because Dyelin has even more support.  Thus it would seem to Dyelin that she was next.  Also, poisoning is not exact.  There are many opprotunites for a plan to go awry, and someone would need to check to make sure the assassination was a success, or perhaps finish the deed if it was not.  You don't usually get more than one chance at an assassination because it counts on surprise for success.


created: 2003-02-24 07:07:32
subject: <b>Seriously...</b>
body:
Dyelin has shown nothing but extreme cooperation throughout the series.<br /><br />She nearly died protecting Elayne, and she would not have put herself in such danger just for a throne, so I doubt that she is after the throne herself.<br /><br />She wasn't in on the plan, because everything that happened had a logical explanation, as has been mentioned above by others. The question is who put forkroot in the tea? It cannot be the sister of the BA, as Hanlon did not know about a BA sister in the palace until later, and Reene Harfor is too dedicated, and she could have done it earlier (she already had Elayne's trust).<br /><br />The conclusion must be that either there was some sneaky work done by Hanlon to slip it in as the tray passed his guard, or a servant is in on it. The servant who delivered the tea is the most likely suspect, since (he/she) could add the forkroot, and also inform both the assassins and Hanlon. (perhaps I should write a theory on this myself - this comment is too long already, so I'll stop there)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 05:36:39
subject: <b>Interesting but shaky conjecture. Still, its probably true...</b>
body:
This may well be a correct theory, was certainly interesting, but still uncertain.<br /><br />   The strongest point FOR: was that Dyelin drew her dagger BEFORE assassins entered the room. NO ONE in the book realised how STUPID it would be for an asssassin to use forkroot, UNLESS they were attempting to abduct an A.S., NOT ASSASSINATE HER. A.S. cannot heal themselves, so poison in those conditions would have killed off the OH SO annoying Elayne. Dyelin had no reason to think of forkroot or abduction... in fact she yelled out 'Poison, treason, murder' (inexact quote). SO... If Dyelin thought Elayne was dying of poisoning, WHY would she draw her dagger? Against whom? No poisoner worth their salt would be hanging around to watch, DF's have enough spies in palace to know it had worked in time (even if, for whatever reason, the palace deciced to try a temporary cover-up of Elayne's demise).<br /><br />HOWEVER: Dyelin, going for her dagger, may have been acting instinctively, as a self comforting gesture when in extreme distress. This is highly improbable though, i think, considering her level/hard-headed character. She may have been extremely distressed, but i think if she were genuine she would have been shrieking for healers and A.S. to come purge her of a poison she clearly thought to be killing her Queen-in-waiting.<br /><br />The other point...why was Dyelin rushing in to begin with? This is the weaker of the two arguments....Dyelin SHOULD be highly alarmed at such a huge and unlikely force marching on Andor, possibly to steal advantage on the vulnerable state of succession the nation is in. Especially considering the already dire straits her mistress is in concerning armed might, Dyelin should be VERY alarmed.<br /><br />However, the theory given for this, though weak, still fits rather nicely. Jordan likes to plague us with red herrings, but i think the theorist is correct in this case, and Dyelin's dubious character is dubious for real.<br /><br />Elayne is made out to be SO clever, yet she is SO DENSE!!! Jordan's really tripped up with this particular sub-plot, because someone as clever as he portrays Elayne to be should have picked up on the ALL points mentioned...esp WHY FORKROOT, and the fact that Daved Hanlon is so repulsive and an obvious DF. It was all too neat, why have none of the characters picked up on it??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 05:54:20
subject: <b>AND...(Sorry!)</b>
body:
Sorry for going ON, but... The '3 stooges'....THEY obviously weren't in on the WHOLE plot...no one would volunteer to be a pretend assassin whose job is to get caught and killed on the spot! That's why they stabbed Dyelin too.<br /> It was a big gamble fo Dyelin, she will have wanted assurance from her DF bosses (Milli Skiane) that the would-be asssassins would be easy for her to defend against while waiting for Hanlon. She knew she would be healed immediately by an A.S. anyway, so she handle a small temporary wound.<br /> Also, we now know that DFs are often forced to take these comparatively small risks, considering what the punishments for DFs are for failure, let alone those for outright disobedience. But then you could say the same re the 3Stooges, maybe they were in on it all but agreed to sacrifice themselves in a clean death rather than be punished.<br /> And... Dyelin needed to prove her 'loyalty' to Elayne at that stage too, not just Hanlon. She knew Elayne was 'clever' enough not to trust Dyelin entirely yet.<br /><br />WHATEVER!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-14 14:57:21
subject: <b>i doubt it but...</b>
body:
This could be reason why Dyelin made sure she wasn't handed the throne... To get into Elayne's good graces.  I really hope not though... Next thing you know Faile will turn out to Narg reborn.


created: 2004-10-17 15:50:52
subject: <b>It's Only a Flesh Wound...</b>
body:
Um....the Three Stooges STABBED her... and later Nynaeve says she lost a lot of blood.  I don't think this sounds like any superficial thing.  The Stooges obviously think Dyelin's down and out, because after they stab her, then they turn their attentions towards Elayne.  So they were told to KILL Elayne.  Hanlon comes in and saves the day.  Dyelin's passed out on the floor.  Elayne was meant to see it, not Dyelin, Dyelin was just in a crappy place at a crappy time.<br /><br />So, in conclusion.  Dyelin could still be a Darkfriend, just one with rotten luck.  But I'd prefer to think that the &quot;mysterious advisor&quot; of the main characters (a.la. Bashere, Elyas, etc.) are good guys, not bad guys.  After all, there were wackos who thought that Moiraine was a Darkfriend.


created: 2002-10-24 14:23:05
subject: <b>wooo FIRST!!</b>
body:
I think this has really got some merit i never considered this... goood thinkin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 14:29:16
subject: <b>I Completely Agree</b>
body:
Having read the entire series (so far) many times, as I was in agreement with the 'magnet theory' (although I never responded) so am I with this one. Your support was very well documented (I'll not address each of your points individually) and I agree with every one. I also agree with the WOTmania reviewer that this does indeed maintain the light/dark balance. Well Done.<br /><br />THRUD<br /><br />{if ya ever get tired of carying around your wife or girlfriend's picture just take a picture of everything ya got, tear it in half, and carry that instead}


created: 2002-10-24 14:45:20
subject: <b>The Old Man from the mountain's coming home....</b>
body:
A lot of valid points. Well thought out and presented. I also like the thought of him being trapped like the Forsaken. Very insightful.<br /><br /> I also like Merle Haggard... <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 15:33:19
subject: <b>Slight Flaw</b>
body:
About Birgitte, she tells Elayne or somebody in one place about one life where she was an Aes Sedai (Accepted, actually) and wanted to bond a Warder before being raised.  Later she bonds Gaidal Cain (sp?) and the rest is one of her MANY stories.  She is known as Birgitte at present because that story is the one that people know.  They don't know about all her different lives.  Artur Hawkwing was not a name from the Age of Legends.  I like your theory that LTT soul was trapped, it works well, but not about why he is known as LTT to the Heroes.<br /><br />But as for ta'veren, I believe RJ stated somewhere that Rand was not ta'veren when he was born, not even until the events of EOTW.  And I would argue that Darksbane and the rest were ta'veren.  Ta'veren are significant in the course of events for the whole pattern, and those false Dragons certainly were that.  A soul is not ta'veren, a life is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 16:28:51
subject: <b>gOOD BUT.......</b>
body:
Yup I agree about the trapping on Dragonmount....very insightful.<br /><br />However the Heroes of The Horn never remember their past lives when they are reborn, wit the exception of Birgitte who was torn out (Birgitte tells us this). And we are told that Artur Hawkwing is called Artur Hawkwing from purspectives of normal characters - they know him as Hawkwing and so they call him it. And Lews Therin was the last incarnation of the Dragon's Spirit, and as Rand and Hawkwing havent been introduced, why not call him Lews Therin?<br /><br />It seems to me that it qwas a good theory at the start but that you tried to force ideas out after that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 17:11:50
subject: <b>YES!</b>
body:
I agree completely.<br /><br />Waiting 3,000+ years for Rand to be born, Lews Therin went insane again thinking of what he did to his beloved Ilyena.<br /><br />This would explain how Rand will survive Tarmon Gaidon. Lews Therin will want to &quot;die the final death&quot; and join Ilyena, leaving Rand in sole possession of his body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 17:58:29
subject: <b>I really hate being negative but...</b>
body:
I really hate being negative but...<br /><br /><b>My previous theory &#8220;The Nature of Ta'veren&#8221; stated that ta'veren are like magnetic threads in the pattern. Building upon that premise it is reasonable to presume that the thread remains magnetic no matter how often it is woven in and out of the pattern and therefore the same soul is always a ta'veren every time it is woven into the pattern. If this were true, the advent of a ta'veren as strong as Rand/Lews Therin would be necessary to bring about and be the cause of a new age. Therefore the soul of Rand/Lews Therin is woven in and out of the pattern only once per age.</b><br /><br />It is stated many, many times that being ta'veren is <b>not</b> a permanent thing.  Rand wasn't always ta'veren (he probably became so just before EotW) and he probably won't always be ta'veren.  If being ta'veren is something that the pattern can switch on and off during a lifetime why can't the pattern spin out LTTs soul without it being ta'veren?  Second, Hawkwing was a strong ta'veren in the MIDDLE of an age so we know that strong ta'veren can happen in the middle of an age as well.  Your conclusion that Rand/LTT is spun out only once per age may be true (there is no evidence for or against) but your logic is severely flawed.<br /><br /><b>So how does this relate to the theory title &#8220;Lews Therin Never Died&#8221;? None, except as a preliminary argument why previous theories that Raolin Darksbane, Guaire Amalasan, or Yurian Stonebow were incarnations between Rand and Lews Therin are incorrect. This is so because none of these men were ta'veren.</b><br /><br />How do we know that these people were NOT ta'veren.  (Guaire Amalasan conquered an amazing amount of territory very quickly.  He even started his conquest near Falme just like Rand.)  Even if they were not that does not preclude them from being LTT/Rand.<br /><br /><b>So the question then is, why was Lews Therin's soul not woven back into the pattern prior to Rand? It is my assertion that Lews Therin did not actually die. Yes his physical body died when he drew in too much of the One Power and smote himself with the largest lightning bolt you'd never want to see. The first clue to this non-death is given at the very end of the prologue of Eye of the World:</b><br /><br />Even assuming you are correct that Rand/LTT wasn't spun out why do we need a reason for the pattern not to spin him out between the Rand and LTT incarnations?  Maybe the pattern just wanted him to wait in T'A'R.<br /><br /><b>Then he was gone, and the mountain and the island stood alone. Waiting<br /><br /><br />Waiting. Who was waiting? Ishmael was gone. Lews Therin had killed himself. The soul of Lews Therin was waiting.</b><br /><br />The mountain and the island were waiting!  You are weaving happenstance and moonbeams here. <br /><br /><b>... Is it therefore also not possible that a powerful weave of Spirit could trap the soul thus preventing it from returning to Tel'aran'rhiod after the body dies? ...</b><br /><br />This may be possible but why?  Why use a complex weave that we are not even sure exists to explain something that is more easily explained with Rand/LTT waiting in T'A'R and the patterns weaving.<br /><br /><b>... Secondly. Lews Therin continually begs for death or says that he deserves to die. So much so that he speaks like one who has great regret over his actions and has never actually died. The other heroes of the horn held no regrets over their past lives. I didn't see Artur Hawkwing bemoaning his conquest of the world or his siege of Tar Valon. They all know that they will be reborn over and over, sometimes doing good sometimes not. But Lews Therin is still stricken with grief over killing Ilyena, not realizing that she will be reborn again (who the soul of Ilyena is, is a completely different theory! ).</b><br /><br />A more likely explanation is that LTT is a combination of LTT's memories and Rand going crazy from the taint.  If Rand was Amalasan or any other man that can chanell during the current age he wouldn't live long enough to develop significant memories.  Neither would he be likely to be bonded.<br /><br /><b>Keeping on with the Heroes of the Horn brings me to the second reason that Lews Therin had not been previously reborn. In The Great Hunt all of the heroes of the horn refer to Rand as Lews Therin and not by any newer name. Artur Hawkwing is always referred to as Artur Hawkwing and not the name he held in the Age of Legends. Birgitte as Birgitte and not any of the other names she has held throughout the turnings. It is as if the name that was last held is the name now used.</b><br /><br />Your facts are correct although your conclusions are not neccesarily correct.  Maybe Artur Hawkwing didn't appear in the AoL.  How do we even know that the soul of Artur Hawkwing hasn't been reborn since Artur Hawkwing.  In fact, I don't think it would make sense for the heros to change their identity every single time they are incarnated.  I know if I was a hero talking to other heros in T'A'R that I would probably want to have some consistancy in who I appear as.  <br /><br />Birgitte has had many lives most of which did not obtain the status of Birgitte.  The Birgitte incarnation was somehow more important more 'major' than the rest.  Wouldn't it make sense for her to keep that form in T'A'R even after that incarnation?  I believe that the heros retain the form of their last 'major' incarnation in T'A'R. Why can't the other heros be the same. <br /><br /><b>Fifthly Lews Therin's memories are all from the Age of Legends. He has knowledge of the Forsaken and events from Lews Therin's life, but is completely taken aback by the bond with Alanna. It is as if the possibility of the bond was completely foreign to him. Page 281 of the soft cover edition of The Lord of Chaos...</b><br /><br /><b>...He knew little of Warders, certainly not how to break the bond, or if it could be broken. All Rand felt from Lews Therin was a sense of stunned shock...</b><br /><br />LTT seems to be having the same type of shock Rand is.  This seems to stronger evidence that LTT is a figment of Rand's insanity.<br /><br /><b>Lews Therin's memories and knowledge seems to be limited to the Age of Legends and do not appear to have anything from the breaking to the present.</b><br /><br />Maybe, but how do we know for sure? If Rand/LTT was incarnated sometime he would die early and wouldn't have anyone to teach him any new weaves in the meantime.  He most likely wouldn't have been bonded either.<br /><br /><b>Considering these many points, I believe that it is safe to conclude that Lews Therin's soul never returned to Tel'aran'rhiod and was not reincarnated prior to Rand. Had Lews Therin been returned to Tel'aran'rhiod or been previously reincarnated one or more of these points would fail to hold true.</b><br /><br />If this was true I think Artur Hawkwing would have said something to the effect of 'where have you been, anyway?'<br /><br />It does make me think a little.  Overall I think you are stretching the evidence too far.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 18:01:25
subject: <b>About Birgitte and Hawkwing</b>
body:
When the Heros of the Horn show up, they never call each other by name.  The names they are given are what Rand places on them.  Even though he says &quot;he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face.&quot;  Are the names that the heros are referred to as just the most familiar names for someone living in this age or do they use the name of the most recent incarnation?  The fact that they call Rand Lews Therin might argue for the latter but if your theory is correct they might just be addressing LTT's spirit that was trapped in DM and is now sharing Rand's body but not Rand himself, who they might not know.  This goes with my belief that &quot;The Dragon&quot; isn't a HotH but just a title that different spirits have when they fulfil that role in the pattern.


created: 2002-10-24 18:09:37
subject: <b>Birgitte's name</b>
body:
Burr-<br /><br />Where does it say that Birgitte's name in AoL was Taedra, or whatever?  I didn't catch that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 18:18:09
subject: <b>Respectfully Disagree</b>
body:
Very original theory, but one thing doen'st make sense.  LTT was obviously the one channelling when he disappeared and Dragonmount formed.  At that time, he was fleeing from the horrible realization that he had killed everyone that shared his blood.  He essentially was looking to commit suicide to punish himself for what he had done.  Why then would he weave an intricate (and unproven) of weave to trap HIMSELF in Dragonmount for 3 millenia?  It makes more sense that he was offing himself.  This suicide is similar to the destruction of Manetheren after King Aemon's death, but on a far grater scale, since LTT was more pwerful in the OP.<br /><br />Not to mention the fact that the mountain did not exist until after LTT was gone.  Therefore, he could not be trapped in something that did not exist.<br /><br />Like I said before, not a very plausible theory, but very original all the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 19:03:25
subject: <b>Teadra</b>
body:
It's in Moghediens PoV when she's thinking about how Birgitte foiled some plan of hers in the AoL.  Ideal Seek and Encyclopaedia WoT both claim that that is in Chapter 25 of TFoH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 19:05:35
subject: <b>He did not die...here's how...</b>
body:
In the prologue to tEotW, after LTT regains a moment of clarity, he Travels away to the spot where Dragonmount stands, and this is what it states:<br /><br />...he could feel the oily taint fouling its surface, the taint of the Shadows counterstroke, the taint that doomed the world.  Because of him.  Because in his pride he hadbelieved that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken.  In his pride he had believed.<br /><br />Further it states:<br /><br />Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame.  Straining, he FORCED himself to draw more, HE TRIED TO DRAW IT ALL.  (Caps added)<br /><br />Okay, the way I see it is that he felt the guilt of his pride and the guilt of the deaths AND the cause of the Counterstroke, so he tried in one last attempt to DRAW (or USE UP) all of the True Source out there.  It was his last attempt to save the world, not suicide.  The result was the formation of Dragonmount and the trapping of his soul.<br /><br />Totally agree...good job!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 20:04:30
subject: <b>I have some problems with this</b>
body:
First of all, if LTT was trapped in Dragonmount all of these years, then how was he released?<br /><br />What was trapping him there, and why was he suddenly able to escape once Rand's body arrived there?<br /><br />I didn't really agree with any of your conclusions until I read Burr's commment at the end.  The idea of balance is a really good one, in that the Forsaken were all sealed, and that perhaps LTT might have also been.  For this, I wanted to consider your theory.<br /><br />However, I am not sure I agree with it.  one problem, as mentioned, as that all male channelers seem to have voices in their heads.  These voices might even be teaching the channelers things, just like Rand learned from LTT.  How else can you explain Taim, Logain, Amalasan, Stonebone, ect. quick rise to power, when they were completely untrained?<br /><br />Your theory,however, does explain one thing really well.  It separates the lives of LTT and Rand.  It makes them two different entities.  This is important, because I have seen several inconsistencies in the storyline so far.<br /><br />Aginor burned himself out trying to draw the Eye.  Yet Rand, an untrained channeler channeled all of it.  We know, from watching Flinn and Narishma, that male channelers have jumps in their ability.  Rand hadn't been channeling long enough to have his jump.  Aginor was also said to be just as powerful a channeler as LTT.  But Aginor couldn't hold on to it.<br /><br />To me, this suggests that Rand might actually be a different soul than LTT, and a soul with a stronger ability to channel.  <br />It should be interesting to see if Rand gains any ability from his taint cleanse.  perhaps channeling all that saidin will force Rand into his highest level of channeling.  <br /><br />I don't really agree with any of the conclusions that you made, but in terms of symmetry, I think your theory might make sense.  Especially, if it helps explain that Rand is a stronger channeler that LTT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 20:56:07
subject: <b>Rand as Channeler, Rand as Warrior</b>
body:
With all the heavy emphasis on Rand's swordsmanship, and his insistence that Asha'man be trained all point to there being a major moment where the channelers are deprived of their ability to Touch the Source.   <br /><br />It's just been hammered in waaaay too hard for waaaay too long to mean nothing.


created: 2002-10-25 00:00:16
subject: <b>Funny Stuff</b>
body:
&quot;How else can you explain Taim, Logain, Amalasan, Stonebone, ect. quick rise to power, when they were completely untrained?&quot;<br /><br />STONEBONE!!! FUNNY STUFF!! Thanks matrimony.


created: 2002-10-25 00:09:23
subject: <b>LTT is trapped in Saidin</b>
body:
I don't think it is reasonable to presume that the same soul is always a ta'veren every time it is woven into the pattern, afterall we have been told that the same person can be ta'veren for only part of their life, so if you can be ta'veren for a short while, surely in some lives you may not be ta'veren at all. Although I must say I am sure that Rand/LTT would be the exception, as he/they are just so pivitol. Actually, now that I think of it, it is strange that we have never been told that LTT was ta'veren, surely there were plently of people around that could recognise ta'veren, but no stories say that LTT changed the world before the bore was struck.<br /><br />I do agree with you that LTT never died, and has remained trapped, but I always had a different idea of where and how. I thought that by trying to draw in so much of the one power, LTT's soul actually got sucked into Saidin, and he has been trapped there ever since. This would explain why Rand started getting LTT's memories and skills once he started to touch the one power (therefore providing the link to LTT), and once he started to touch Saidin LTT started talking to him (and the struggle to stop LTT taking over his body is always harder when he is holding the one power). Also, LTT being trapped inside Saidin with the taint for 3000 years is surely a good reason for him to have gone mad. Maybe this is why other male channelers start hearing voices when they get taint sickness? And echo of LTT perhaps, and Rand is just different in that with their soul bond, LTT can hear him back. As to why LTT is trapped in Saidin and other people who overdosed are not? Well, it was probably the largest amount of Saidin that has ever been drawn without aid, and LTT is a unique soul.<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-25 01:29:25
subject: <b>Thought I'd better warn you, so I called you on the phone</b>
body:
I really like r4j's theory that LTT might have been trying to save the world by drawing in ALL of Saidin.  Not a feasible plan, but he wasn't very sane at the time.<br /><br />I also like Adrian's theory that LTT's soul has become trapped in all Saidin, explaining why all male channelers eventually hear voices.  I've been waiting for an explanation ever since Cadsuane mentioned them.  This could be it.  Good Work.<br /><br />... I *also* like Merle Haggard.  At least my dad did, and forced me to listen to him over and over again on long car trips...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 01:45:57
subject: <b>Linked by more than birth</b>
body:
I like this theory, it has a nice balance to it of light and dark, which seems to be a popular theme in the books. I'd just like to add that I don't think merely being born on the slopes of Dragonmount would be enough to awaken the sleeping dragon. (OK he probably wasn't asleep, but it has a nice ring to it) Given the upheaval of the breaking of the world and the Trolloc wars etc. I think there would have been alot of displaced people throughout the time from LTT's death to Rand's birth; so I don't think it's all that hard to imagine other children being born there in the past. Also, while Dragonmount has a certain stigma attached to it now that may act as deterrent, at the time of it's creation I don't think that would have been the case, given that people were probably more preoccupied with the world being torn apart. <br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 03:48:51
subject: <b>sorry, but no...</b>
body:
Look at the structure of the sentence...<br /><br />&quot;Then he was gone, and the mountain and the island stood alone. Waiting.&quot;<br /><br />LTT is gone.  The mountain and the island are what is modified by the word 'waiting.'  To read it as otherwise completely ignores the clear implication that the period after 'alone' effectively acts as a comma (a pause in the telling of the story).  A plain language reading of the statement clearly seems, to me, to mean that the mountain and island are waiting.  What for?  It isn't as if either has had any important role in the series - the birth of the DR, home of the AS, etc.<br /><br />This theory just seems to be clutching at straws.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 08:25:46
subject: <b>Would like to add this.....</b>
body:
I agree with Geer but I would like to add 2 pieces that I have been trying to weave together. This theory that he never died helps to do just that.<br /><br />1. Heros of the Horn cannot be touched by the one power.<br />So someone who channels cannot be a hero of the horn. Can you imagine being able to use the one pwoer as a weapon and not being affected when someone channels at you. You wouyld not need the rest of the Heros. Somehow I feel the pattern could not allow it.<br /><br />Lewis Therin or any other channeller can never be a Hero / Heroine of the Horn.<br /><br />2. In TDR there is a mention in one paragragh of Egwene's dreams. She dreams of Rand walking down a passage alone. A passage leading into a mountain. I even think there is a mention stating it was the Pit of Doom and Rand was walking down to fight the Dark One.<br /><br />I always thought it was Dragonmount. I think Rand needs to enter Dragonmount to finally lay rest to LTT. Whether theirs souls merge or LTT finally dies I am not sure ... yet. But I know that Rand needs to enter Dragonmount alone.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />nice work Geer<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 10:55:06
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
shadow killer i would like to point out that your statement about heros not being able to be affected by the power is somewhat untrue.  They cant be affected by the one power WHEN THEY ARE CALLED BY THE HORN. This does not preveny heros from channeling or being affected by the one power when they are reborn or ripped out of the pattern as Birgette has been.  (I still believe that she is still tied to the horn cause of one of mins viewings but im not gonna get into that now) (I dont belive that LTT is tied to the horn either because of some major problems that could cause but thats a different theory as well)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 11:53:22
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
this is possibly one of the most helpful and interesting, along with possibly true, theories that I have every read.  I like it a lot and it explains why LTT still acts like he is insane!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The brain dead master of sleep.........<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-25 14:17:38
subject: <b>Another thought....</b>
body:
<br /><br />The Heroes of the Horn are linked to follow the dragon and his banner.<br /><br />So can the dragon ever be a hero of the horn???<br />If so antoher reason for the Dragon to be alive in Rand and not yet dead.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-26 08:48:20
subject: <b>Good Theory, but there's just one thing....</b>
body:
<br />I like and agree with your theory. However, there is one point I would like to make. If Lews Therin did not die and did indeed &quot;Possess,&quot; &quot;inhabit,&quot; (or whatever) Rands body at his birth, then why does he wait until Rand starts channeling to reveal himself?<br /><br />Could he not have manifested in Rand's mind earlier? Could he not have provided Rand with enough knowledge to heal Tam in EoTW?<br /><br />I really do like your theory though. Its original and makes sense. But like I said... Its kind of a strange coincidence that &quot;Lews Therin&quot; only manifests in Rand's mind after Rand is subjected to the Taint.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br />


created: 2002-10-28 01:37:38
subject: <b>Well, at first I paid this theory no mind</b>
body:
Just looked at it as more reaching stuff. But, I am rereading tLoC right now, and I came across a passage that Geer doesn't mention, but fully supports his theory, if not parts of it. <br /><br />Chapter 17 of The Lord Of Chaos, The Wheel of a Life (this life being Rand/Lews Therins)<br /><br /><i> At least Alanna was far away. Verin, too, but most of all Alanna. He still felt her, even at this distance, just a vague impression that she was somewhere to the west. Like the feel of a hand just a hair from touching the back of his neck. Was there any way to get free of her? He seized Saidin again for a moment, but that still made no difference. <br /><b>You never escape the traps you spin yourself.</b> Lews Therin's murmur sounded confused. <b>Only a greater power can break a power, and then you're trapped again. Trapped forever so you cannot die.</b></i><br /><br />I bolded where the text in the book is italic. Anyway, Lews Therin says some pretty noteworthy things here. What does he mean by &quot;Only a greater power can break a power&quot;? Is he talking about doing something to himself? Or something to the prison for the Dark One he made? Or maybe he is talking about the power of the dark one himself? But I think the most damning evidence here to support Geer, is the whole &quot;and then you're trapped again. Trapped forever so you cannot die.&quot; bit.<br /><br />Myself, I don't know what this means, or how it ties into other Asha&#8217;man hearing voices in their head and what not, it's a RAFO thing for me. But I think that Geer is on the right track about something, and this will probably tie into Lews Therin dying the final death, and Rand somehow living after Tarmon Gai&#8217;don. Nice work Geer, I give it thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 09:17:35
subject: <b>naah...</b>
body:
why would lews therin want to trap his soul inside dragonmount? he killed his love and his kin...<br /><br />why would he do such a thing?<br /><br />i'm not saying the theory isn't possible, in fact most of it sounds reasonable, but geer didn't finish the &quot;why&quot; factor...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 09:58:56
subject: <b>Well if you read what I just posted Ianski</b>
body:
It might answer the &quot;why&quot; <i><b>You never escape the traps you spin yourself.</b></i><br /><br />So perhaps the &quot;why&quot; is that it was a mistake. <br /><br />One thing I notice with these theories, is that somebody brings up an idea, and then later, as you re-read the series, you come across more passages that support or debunk that idea. This one is pretty original, and I think it will take some time to fully discuss it, unless it just gets abandoned like so many theories do. <br /><br />Myself like I said, I really just glazed over it as some wild theory somebody pulled out of their ass, until I read that line in LoC. Now I think it holds a lot of merit. My biggest question is that the hearing of voices seems to be pretty common with the madness the taint brings, so how do the other Asha'man fit into this, and who are the voices in their heads?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 13:56:52
subject: <b>going out on a limb...</b>
body:
it seems to me that in a nutshell, the theory states that LTT's soul entered Rand's body when he was born on Dragonmount.  <br /><br />Could this be analogous to the joining of Isam and Luc?  Was Isam 'trapped' in the Blight and not freed until Luc came into contact somehow?<br /><br />It's a stretch, but I thought I'd throw it out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 14:46:39
subject: <b>Mordeth was definitely trapped in Shadar Logoth.</b>
body:
If Mordeth can be spiritually trapped in a physical space until given a host, then why not LTT or Isam?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 16:15:01
subject: <b>possibly</b>
body:
I agree with the comment about the sentence construction (it's the mountain and the island that are &quot;waiting&quot; ), but wouldn't it be a kick if LTT actually had been trapped by the natural, destructive landscape feature he'd created? It would create that lovely balance everyone's been talking about.<br /><br />Souls are funny things--very ambiguous, so in this case, we readers can speculate on the properties of WoT souls 'til kingdom come. Of course, there's the Ask Jordan option...but we all know what he'll say, don't we?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 20:09:33
subject: <b>I can't agree with this...</b>
body:
Though this is an original post, I cannot agree with it.  Quite simply, it's reaching.<br /><br />1.  The mountain is waiting.  The island is waiting.  LTT's soul is not waiting.<br /><br />Grammatically speaking, the noun that would refer to LTT is not included anywhere within that sentence/phrase, and would thusly not be the object of that sentence.<br /><br />2.  I *do* believe that LTT never died, and I *do* believe he really is in Rand's head.  Rand knows WAY too much for it to be explained through mere serendipity.  I can't remember if he had already gone to Rhuidean or not when he spoke to Lanfear and called her by name, but if not, that is DEFINITELY evidence that he has information he could not have otherwise had.<br /><br />3.  Dangit, I can't remember the phrasing, but when the creator speaks and says only the chosen (ironic that the creator refers to Rand as 'Chosen') one may take the action if he chooses (I believe it's in the end of book 1), I don't believe he says chosen ones (plural), but chosen one (singular).  Since souls have been established to exist (via the reincarnation of several of the Forsaken), one would refer to a soul as an individual rather than a body.<br /><br />Thusly:<br /><br />If Rand = TDR and TDR = Incarnation of LTT then Rand = LTT<br /><br />Maybe I'm too cynical, but I don't see him being trapped in the DragonMount.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 20:11:39
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I really like this theory.  I'd been trying to formulate a similar theory, but couldn't quite clean it up enough.  The basis of my theory was:<br />Lews Therin balefired himself.<br /><br />He tried to draw all this power inside of himself so that he could erase all the actions he'd regretted: the taint on saidin, killing Ilyena, etc.  But the Pattern wouldn't allow the Dragon's thread to be burned out, so instead the Pattern (and this is where my pet idea gets dicey) pushes him so far backward, that Lews Therin's soul is in the future (due to the circularity of time).  And so his soul has to inhabit Rand's mind.  <br /><br />I know, my idea has a plot twist like a bad Star Trek episode, and that's why I like your idea so much better.


created: 2002-10-28 20:40:07
subject: <b>shani i think your right.</b>
body:
going full circle BACKWARDS with balefire would be a damn good plot twist.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 22:54:55
subject: <b>i agree for the most part</b>
body:
ok i agree rand is the first since lews therin. but some of your reasoning is faulty. i like the part about the names the heroes use. however those false dragons you mentioned probably were taveren, Logain was. on of the salidar novices(maybe accepted) showed her first talent by seeing Logain as a taveren. by the way i saw a comment from someone else that i think might be wrong, i need to go check. Brigette never channeled, she KNEW an accepted who tried to bond a warder. <br />but like i said i like the idea and though i don't know about dragonmount it would be kinda cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ignorance is not just bliss, it is a house that i live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />                                 -Wayne Brady<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 03:22:26
subject: <b>the voices heard by male channelers</b>
body:
I think Cadsuane was just saying that to get a rise out of Rand.  She suspected he was hearing voices; maybe it was stated in a prophecy, or maybe her 400 years of experience has brought her into close contact with a number of insane people, many of whom were schizophrenic or had multiple personalities.  She said something like, &quot;it is said that insane people hear voices that aren't there.&quot;  She did NOT say that every single male channeler hears voices.<br /><br />The symptoms of insanity varied widely across the Asha'man, and I don't recall any of them mentioning hearing voices (although Dashiva aka Aginor acted like he was hearing things, probably hearing Darkfriend orders).<br /><br />Good theory!  I find it hard to believe that Rand and Lews are the same person, and there has been a lot of hinting of an upcoming &quot;merge&quot; between the two of them (and the blurry third).


created: 2002-10-29 21:27:07
subject: <b>I think Windsor has one of the best quotes on the BB</b>
body:
check out the quote he provided.<br /><br />I didn't see any evidence for this theory until I read what Windsor had to say.<br /><br />I think there is alot of tinkering that still needs to be made on this theory, but it is neat that we are still coming up with plausible theories this late before CoT has been published.<br /><br />This theory could use a re-write, and possibly a full faq on the LTT/Rand division.<br /><br />I still have one problem, however.  What released LTT?  A child being born on Dragonmount wouldn't have been enough in my opinion.  Could there have been some higher force involved, and what was it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 00:31:23
subject: <b>Defender of the Theory</b>
body:
Sorry about taking so long to reply to the critics of my theory but I have been otherwise occupied.  I'm going to be as brief as I can be with my replies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To <b>Bobsledai</b>:<br />1) it was not Birgitte who did the bonding, but an Aes Sedai she knew of from one of her past lives.<br /><br />2) Rand was known as Lews Therin to the Heroes because that was the last physical incarnation that he had held up until Rand.<br /><br />3) You do have to be a <i>Ta'veren</i> to be a major mover of the world.  Laman who cut down the Chora tree created a major war, but was not <i>Ta'veren</i>.  As to what RJ stated or did not state, I don't know without an actual transcript.  A false dragon may not be a signicant  event as far as the pattern is concerned.  Neither Logain or Taim were <i>Ta'veren</i>.<br /><br />To <b>Pinchy</b>:<br />If you read the relevant portion of <i>The Great Hunt</i> you will note that they do refer to Rand as Lews Therin.  Going from memory Hawkwing says something along the lines of, &quot;Lews Therin I know you even if you do not know yourself...&quot; (just going from memory here).<br /><br />To <b>RabidWombat</b>:<br />1) I am only going by what I have read in the books.  Nowhere have I seen it stated that <i>Ta'vereness</i> is not permanent.  That does not make me correct, but I would like to see proof of it.<br /><br />2) Yes Hawkwing was a strong <i>Ta'veren</i> in the middle of an age, but he was probably on an equal footing with Perrin or Mat.  I recall Moiraine stating that Hawkwing was nowhere nearly a strong a <i>Ta'veren</i> as Rand.  I think she also noted that there probably hadn't been as strong a <i>Ta'veren</i> since the AOL.  i.e. Lews Therin!<br /><br />3) Yes some of the false Dragons conquered a very large amount of land etc...  But that is the difference between <i>Ta'verens</i> and others.  They were unsuccessful.  Additionally why does Lews Therin not have any memories of those people if they were incarnations of the soul.<br /><br />4) If Lews Therin simply sat in T'A'R between spinnings why is my theory correct?  My postulation is that he wouldn't be half mad with grief over his actions.  I didn't still see Artur Hawkwing upset with Aes Sedai.  In fact he went to fight against the decendents of his own army.  He has left behind the baggage of his previous incarnation whereas Lews Therin hasn't.  Lews Therin talks like he never died.<br /><br />5) Yes the island and the mountain were waiting.  But is it not possible that there is a dual meaning here?  RJ likes to have dual (and sometimes more) meanings strewn all over the place.  Admittedly it was early in the series and he may not have thought that far in advance, but it is none the less possible.  (I will conceed that this is the least defensible portion of my theory, and not even necessary to the remainder).<br /><br />6) You are correct in that no false Dragon had been bonded.  But Lews Therin acts as thought this is completely out of his lexicon of knowledge.  Rand is surprised by the action, but Lews Therin is surprised by the very act itself.  Additionally Lews Therin has not made note one single memory from any other life.<br /><br />7) As to the naming thing, if everyone calls you Fred for 75 years even though your name is John.  You would probably go by Fred.  Why call her Birgitte?  I'm sure she did something even greater in yet an earlier life!<br /><br />8 ) If Lews Therin is a figment of Rand's imagination then I am truly amazed.  His abilty to summon fancy weaves (like the cocoon that he wove around himself) is simply amazing.  This in addition to his memory of the Forsaken and his new found ability to draw in Winter's Heart (which Lews Therin had, but Rand previously didn't).<br /><br />To <b>Xaviel</b>:<br />1) The fact that he heard a hundred names connected to every face further implies that he has lived with each of them in the past.  He knows the souls of heroes and they know his.<br /><br />To <b>AOTbD</b>:<br />1) I fully agree that he was trying to commit suide!  I would argue that he was so filled with anguish that he was weaving wildly will all five &quot;elements&quot; in an attempt to completely obliterate himself.<br /><br />2) That is the exact point!  The mountain did not exist before.  He trapped his soul there at the time of its creation.<br /><br />To <b>Matrimony Cauthorn</b>:<br />1) Not all channelers hear voices.  It is just one of many forms of insanity.  Any powerful channeler who can learn to controil Saidin could rise to power quickly.  That doesn't mean they know a great many weaves.  But even some of the simplest are quite powerful!  Besides Taim has been able to channel for 10 years and Logain 4 (I think).<br /><br />2) I have always believed that the problem with Aginor was that he had been too long removed from the source.  His ability was lower than it used to be.  Kinda like not cycling for a few years and then doing the Tour de France.  Moiraine made note that she was surprised that she was able to hold him for so long.  Aginor himself commented on the fact that it had been so long since he had tasted <i>Saidin</i>.  This may have lowered him to a point just shy or where Rand had developed to.  This goes along with the fact that his body seemed to be regenerating at the same time.<br /><br />To <b>Shooganooga</b>:<br />1) Given the attitude of the common person (heck even Aes Sedai) to <i>Saidin</i> I would suspect that they would avoid the Dragonmount like the plague.  Think of the reaction to simply scrawling the Dragon's Fang on someone's door.<br /><br />To <b>Narg_Reincarnated</b>:<br />As I said this part was the weakest part of the argument, and not really critical to it.  But to dispute the entire theory on the smallest point?  What can I say but see above.<br /><br />To <b>Tedronai7</b>:<br />I don't really know that one, but I'll take a stab at it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />It could be that it required exposure to <i>Saidin</i> to awaken Lews Therin from his slumber.  The birth implanted him, the touching of the source awakened him.  Anybody else got any good ideas on this one? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To <b>Windsor</b>:<br />Could be a link... could just be mad ramblings of Lews Therin.  Thanks for the additional quote. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To <b>ianski</b>:<br />He didn't want  to trap himself... he wanted to kill himself.  He accidentally trapped himself....<br /><br />To <b>thunderwalker07</b>:<br />Logain was not <i>Ta'veren</i>, Mat was the <i>Ta'veren</i> that Nicola (I think it was Nicola) saw.<br /><br /><br />*Phew*  That took a while....And i was trying to be brief!<br /><br />Great discussion all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Geer<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-10-30 00:46:30
subject: <b>Remeber what Tam said about finding rand</b>
body:
When tam was describing how he had found Rand, he said that he was blue from the cold.. and he wasn't sure if he was gonna make it.  (or something along those lines, from book one)<br /><br />Then someone says later in book something or other &quot;the souls of the dead, may inhabit the living&quot; or somthing along those lines...<br /><br />What if Rand really did die on the slopes of dragonmount as a child, and that empty vessicle is what gave LTT a means of escape from the prison he had accidently created for himself.


created: 2002-10-30 01:55:30
subject: <b>nice, I like where this is going</b>
body:
I think we are on the cusp of figuring something out, or at the the very least, having a hint as to what it means to be the Dragon Reborn, or an incarnation of Lews Therin, or whatever his soul name is. <br /><br />Want to know something funny? I was going to log on tonight and send Matrimony Cauthon a noteboard message tonight and tell him to revisit this theory, but before I jumped, I reread the BB comments, and see he already has. Thanks MC for coming back here, I have you tagged via premium options to hear what you have to say, and while I couldn't draw any conclusions myself, the line I read, and posted, held way to much merit to be dismissed.<br /><br />Book 6 is full of more comments like this from LTT, I want to catch up on them more before I post anything more worth regard.<br /><br />Too bad theories like this disappear in two weeks (for the most part).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 03:07:13
subject: <b>It was Thom</b>
body:
Kaiz,<br /><br />It was Thom who said the dead may inhabit the bodies of the living.  I only wish i could remember if it was the first or second book.  I believe it was in EotW.<br /><br />Geer<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-30 09:54:37
subject: <b>I did not read all of the other comments, but...</b>
body:
I noticed a problem early on in the theory. You said something along the lines of: assuming that the ta'veren threads are &quot;magnetic,&quot; it's reasonable to assume that they stay magnetic even though they are woven in and out of the pattern. <br /><br />By this, I'm assuming that you mean that they stay ta'veren, but we already know that this is not the case. I don't have the time to find the reference right now, but I seem to remember somebody saying (sometime) that ta'veren-ness (if you will) is not a permanent thing--it goes away. <br /><br />So yeah...that's all I wanted to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-03 21:51:18
subject: <b>ok you proved me wrong on that quote, but</b>
body:
i still think the major false dragons we know of have to be at least semi-ta'verenish for part of their lives to create all the commotion they have. THe false dragon Hawkwing put down conquered so much i am 99% sure he had to be ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ignorance is not just bliss, it is a house that i live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />                                 -Wayne Brady<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 10:41:39
subject: <b>Elayne is Ilyena's soul reborn</b>
body:
think about it.....Ilyena had golden hair and could channel quite strongly.... she was a queen.....who else is a queen that matches that description....it could be why Rand/Lews Therin is so attracted to Elayne... such striking resemblences...<br /><br />what do you think? is it plausible?


created: 2002-11-08 14:40:00
subject: <b>Theory</b>
body:
This theory appears well backed, Only a stronger power can break a power, or whatever i think it was said, Rand is nto the strongest channeler alive isnt he, that could have freed lews therin.<br />


created: 2002-11-12 01:57:20
subject: <b>awesome theory</b>
body:
I agree totally with this theory. In fact, the quote about the mountain waiting only supports it. The structure of the quote gives the hint of personification. So it is plausible that LTT is trapped and has become one with the mountain and is waiting.  now as for the triggers, I like the idea of rand dying and LTT assuming his body. I also thin to a certain extent the very act of his birth triggered LTT. But a combination is more plausible. Rand is dying, uses the OP to save himself and thus somehow triggers LTT to merge. Rand has used the OP without knowing it. Maybe even as a baby he could channel... Not really sure that is possible. Also, was his mom able to channel???? Maybe the war and the OP being used against the aiel triggered it. Maybe LTT sensed the pattern... Maybe pigs flew that day....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 02:18:36
subject: <b>asha'man hearing voices</b>
body:
I always thought that perhaps, the MCs who hear voices are the 100 companions reborn hearing the voice of their past soul in their head.  I havn't thought any further on how this might come about, but perhaps it has something to do with the taint. *blinks*  Anyone care to expand this theory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 06:34:47
subject: <b>Ok, yea, but....</b>
body:
I can see where you are going with that one, and eveything seems to fit. The only thing that bothers me is that in the later books, I seem to remember Lews Therin muttering things, and Rand saying things, that indicates that there are three (people?) minds in his head. Im sorry that I cant quote page numbers, but whenI was reading though, I got the impression that the other voice could be another Dragon. I think that occured before Alanna bonded him.


created: 2003-04-18 09:37:29
subject: <b>More opinions...</b>
body:
I can't say I agree with the theory, but I'll give my arguments on a few points brought up by it and the discussion.<br /><br />1) Ta'vereness:  I believe mentions several times that people can be Ta'veren for a short time, or for their entire lives.  Probably the stronger you are, the longer you are.  Some of the false dragons probably were ta'veren and no one knew it.<br /><br />2) Voices:  When Cadsuane mentions the voices, the AM with rand all react like him, giving the impression they heard voices too.  Dashiva reacts differently, but you can expect that since he is a Forsaken playing a game.  My belief is that the Taint breaks down the barriers between lives so that you can remember past lives.  Since everyone is someone reborn, everyone will eventually hear voices.  How soon you hear voices probably has to do with how important your past lives were.<br /><br />3) The Third Face:  Going by my beliefs listed in 2, the third face is that souls life before LTT.  Rand has so much taint, and his past lives have all been so important, that he is starting to be able to access another past life.<br /><br />4) Heros of the Horn:  The names they are known by are the ones that the people of this age known. These people have been born again since the AoL (if any evidence is needed, check Crown of Swords, Mat and Birgitte remember some of the same things).  The Heroes are handled just like other people, reborn at the same rate, just given a special place to wait.<br /><br />5)  Someone mentioned the dead possessing the living as an option.  That would mean LTT was dead, and took control of rand.  Rand would BE LTT, not hearing him.<br /><br />For the actual theory, I don't know if there's any true argument against it.  <br /><br />I do not think it is safe to assume Rand is the only child ever born on the slopes of Dragonmount.  Rand would still have LTT in his head even if he managed to be born somewhere else (but the Pattern wouldn't let him because it needed that to happen so he could be found and declared).  Over 3 thousand years there were probably a few children born there, though its quite possible most died before getting off the slopes.  Yes it is taboo and all those things, but no everyone cares about taboo, and some people could see it as protection (what better place to hide than one people do not wish to go).  There is no evidence one way or another really, so this point is mere conjecture.<br /><br />Going by your evidence (which I disagree with, as I pointed out my beliefs above), the Heroes are known by the last name they used.  That would mean LTT was not reborn until Rand (that I agree with, the Creator's Champion would only be born when needed).  That does NOT mean he did not die.  The have no reason to know Rand's name, so the last name the soul used works.  Also, EVERYONE calls him LTT, not just the Heroes.  At least everyone with a reason to know LTT.<br /><br />And the Warder bond is irrelevant except to prove he was not born since the AoL, not that he never died.<br /><br />And there is no evidence LTT's soul IS kept in T'A'R between incarnations.  If it is, and was there, then that's more reason for the Heros to call him LTT.<br /><br />Overall, I think your arguments and the board discussion did a good job of proving LTT did not have a life during this age until Rand, but your evidence that he &quot;trapped his own soul&quot; is based on circumstantial evidence.  The same evidence can be used for many differing opinions.  But it was good thinking and very original.  I like the theory, but there's no real evidence for it (and without the accidental weave we don't know exists, there's really no way this works).<br /><br />Wow that was more opinion than I've given about anything in years....<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 21:57:56
subject: <b>Very Compelling</b>
body:
I find what you have pointed out to be very compeelling! Your theory is very well thought out and has a substantial amount of evidence to back it up. Thanks for this golden nugget of thought!


created: 2004-03-10 09:55:26
subject: <b>My thoughts on the heros of the horn.</b>
body:
What if...... LTT blew the HoV during his lifetime. We don't know who exactly the hundred companions were. I mean the largest circle of channelers is said to be 72, and you can only have a circle that large if there are women. And there were no women at the sealing of the bore. So what if LTT used the horn heros for his humdred companions? It would make sense that those heros would know who LTT is, and call him by that name. <br /> I like this thoery.<br /><br />Just my 2 coppers.<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-18 04:57:07
subject: <b>Tied into prophecy</b>
body:
I really like the theory, and it made me look at the prophecy a little different. <br /><br /> &quot;Twice dawns the day his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth.&quot;<br /><br />Most seem to take it that it means that there will be some kind of eclipse, and possibly that either Rand/LTT dies or that Elayne will have his child at Shayol Ghul.<br />  Now, what if 'twice dawns' is refering to the day Dragonmount is created (once for mourning), and when LTT dies or a child is born (the birth of a new age, or a child is born). <br /><br />Also, it was in tEotW that Thom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> yelled at Mat for saying something about a dead man taking over someone's body, because it can happen.  This would be great forshadowing by RJ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> , if he gives us our best clues in the first 300 pages to something that's going to happen 12 books later, and he has said that he has known the final scene since the begining.


created: 2005-02-19 09:22:30
subject: <b>good, majoritally</b>
body:
I like the idea of LTT being trapped in DM. im still abit unsure of how he got in. OBVIOUSLY, he didnt do it on purpose. also, as someone said before me, other children could have been born on dragonmount, how would LTT's soul know which one to go into? not to mention how to get out...<br /><br />And, Ashrandi, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> said no one used the HoV in the AoL. It was a myth, and few people believed it even existed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-19 23:09:21
subject: <b>Couple points...</b>
body:
One major, one minor, minor first.  Even if Lews Therin DID go to Tel'aran'rhiod, he wouldn't necessarily know anything about bonding Warders, a proof you use a couple times, as unless a lot of Dreamwalking Aes Sedai went around babbling about it in Dreamworld, there'd be no reason for it to come out there, and as far as we know, the Wheelbound souls don't participate in the document spying we've seen the Aes Sedai doing.  Second point, in regard to the point you made about the souls being referred to with the last name they were given.  This can be taken two ways, the way you took it, or the slightly more likely (seemingly, at least) way that the name they use is that of the last body they died in, and of course, Lews Therin was the last Dragon to die.


created: 2006-05-20 16:31:18
subject: <b>Windsor said it best...</b>
body:
I like where this is going. I'm in agreement with Windsor that we're on the verge of something. When I first read this theory, I was positive that it was correct. Then I read many of the posts and I've noticed a few other plausible theories.<br /><br />Trapped in Saidin:<br /><br />&quot;Only a greater power can break a power.&quot; What could be a greater power than one of the strongest channelers ever to walk the earth? Saidin. The source he gets his power from. Only saidin itself could break someone as strong as LTT. Also, RJ tends to describe saidin as a rushing torrent. LTT simply got swept along.<br /><br />Balefire'd:<br /><br />This theory also sounds possible. Somewhat. With a thread as important as Lews, there isn't really a way to know what would happen if he tried to erase himself. And the act of balefiring oneself may actually create a grandmother paradox scenario. How could you balefire yourself if you were never there in the first place? Rand resorted to balefire once to bring Mat back, so it might be that Lews figured he could make everything better if he balefired himself.<br /><br />Who knows.<br /><br />In other news, I highly doubt a baby has been born on Dragonmount before. Supposedly, its supposed to be obscenely high, dwarfing the White Tower. In our world, I don't think a baby has ever been born on Everest. Or K-2. Or Kilimanjaro. Or even Whitier. People don't...give birth on mountains. That's just wierd. The only reason Rand was there is because his mother was participating in a war. If she wasn't a hardened, tough Maiden, she probably couldn't have even gotten up its slopes.<br />


