# w_comment

created: 2001-10-31 10:35:56
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
Masema?   Wasn't Demandred's &quot;job&quot; to create chaos throughout RL.  Didn't one of the forsaken say that he was doing that, even?  Who is causing havoc and chaos in more ways (politically, emotionally, sociologically) than Masema.<br />This must be an old argument, and I just missed it.  I know I'm not delving deep, but I like it though.<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 13:07:49
subject: <b>As long as we are brainstorming.</b>
body:
As long as we are brainstorming, there was an inquisitor under Asuwana that reported to Asuwana in Asuwana's only point of view.  (Somwhere just before the Seanchen invasion of Amidicia.  The PoV seemed to indicate that Asuwana wasn't Demandred, but that this inquisitor might be.<br /><br />Something less vague is Balwer (Pedron Niall's Secretary).  A small chance I know, but I am too tired to come up with the objections, right now.<br /><br />There is also the possibility that he is associated somehow with King Roedran who employed the Band of the Red Hand to be a menacing force so he can unite Murandy against them.  Looking at a map.  If Tar Valon is taken along with Arad Domain Whitebridge becomes a strategic location to separate the borderlands.  <br /><br />I can't seem to find a suitable candidate among the Aiel, Seafolk, or Borderlands.  None of these have Forsaken, and at least one of them should.  The Sea Folk do present a hierarchy problem.  It would be much easier to use well established DF than to establish a DF or Forsaken into a place of power in the Sea Folk.  The DO tried to create chaos in the borderlands but failed.  This seems to suggest there is no significant force of DFs and/or Forsaken there.  I think that the Aiel suprised the DO entirely, but I have no proof.  <br /><br />I am out of ideas for now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 19:03:00
subject: <b>3 in a boat, about the Aiel chief think.</b>
body:
I think I came up with it, not that it matters a lot, but try to be correct. Check the post I made.<br />Of course I was pretty tired when I wrote it, so maybe you suggest already, in that case,<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />. <br />Any way, what i meant to say in that post was that the aiel chief clan could be a good place to search, because:<br />a. They are the one notion without a forsaken in them. <br />b. They are the main forces in rand army, so if &quot;RJ did say that he had placed a POWERFUL enemy deep into our heroes midst&quot; he might put it in this big important group.<br />c.  Most aiel and aiel clan chief don't know how Aes Sedai look like, or who is an Asha'man.<br /><br />d. One of the point is that is seems that demanred was somehow involved in Dumai's Wells, so who was there in Dumai's Wells?<br />Two rivers, Aes Sedai from the tower, the young&#8217;s, the Shaido tribe, the aes sedai from saldir, the maines, the Asha'man, and *drums* the &quot;good&quot; aiel, did I forget anyone?<br />Anyway, he wasn't with the either of the aes sedai group- he is not a women.<br />The asha'man already had a forsaken. The shaido are not in rand side, so aren't the young<br />. What does it leave us: two rivers, maines, and the &quot;good&quot; aiel. So there is a chance it is the aiel.<br /><br />The only problem in this is that there were no aiel south to Arad Doman <br />Anyway the aiel suspects are:<br />Bael (Clan Chief) <br />Erim (Clan Chief) <br />Indirian (Clan Chief) <br />Mandelain (Clan Chief) <br />Timolan  (Clan Chief) <br />Bruan (Clan Chief) <br />Dhearic (Clan Chief) <br />Jheran (Clan Chief) <br />Rhuarc (Clan Chief) <br />Han (Clan Chief)<br />Janwin (Clan Chief) <br /><br />I suspect bael for two reasons: Tall for an Aiel and he is in Caemlyn, in charge of the aiel troops.<br /><br />May the aiedemandrd theory relive <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 08:40:31
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
You're right, it doesn't mater, but I said this &quot;Are there any (unmarried) Aiel chiefs in Caemlyn?&quot; about 4 posts up from your first post on this balckboard.<br /><br />I suspected Bael myself, but I couldn't remember if he was married or not.<br /><br />I'm beginning to think that Demandred probably isn't someone as close to Rand as that though, simply because he hates him SO much, I doubt we wouldn't have seen some of it creep through.


created: 2001-11-01 10:13:14
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Wouldn't that be a good disguise for Masemandred to not use the power to get near Rand.  Besides, if I recall correctly, when Perrin approached Masema about Rand's summons, Masema was very objectionable and became nearly hostile.  (this could be a Demandred character trait)  Perrin felt Masema had rejected Rand's summons, and was leaving to return to Rand with the fear of telling him that Masema refused his summons.  Then lo and behold, Masema approaches Perrins camp with a group of his own soldiers. (which Perrin had told him was strictly forbidden)  I'm gonna keep thinking about this one.<br />Oh, how come Masema or The Prophet are not in WoTmania's encyclopedia... or did I just miss them?<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 12:10:05
subject: <b>you are right 3, my bad.</b>
body:
you post it before me, i  didn't see it.<br />anyway Bael is married, to mailn the dramwalker, and some other woman.<br />the big hole in this theory is the south to Arad Doman factor, mayby  the big D had some other power in south?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 17:27:37
subject: <b>One big point for Asunawa or another questioner...</b>
body:
Their keenness to put Morgase to the question might be a proof for Demandred being there: They accept that Valda keeps them for gaining control over Andor but want her immediately after. Now, don&#180;t we know that Andor and the royal line play a key role in winning TG? I strongly believe that this Foretelling is also known by the Forsaken, or would Rahvin otherwise placed himself close to Morgase? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 18:56:05
subject: <b>How short is Bashere, really?</b>
body:
I've seen a lot of people say it would be hard for Demandred to disguise himself as Bashere because Bashere is short. But how short is he, really? When Bashere first appears, it says he is &quot;a head taller than Sulin.&quot; Now, we know that Sulin is just a little bit shorter than your average wetlander male, so that means that Bashere is TALLER THAN THE AVERAGE WETLANDER MALE. And since Demandred is a little shorter than Rand, is there really that much difference between his height and Bashere's? Not really. So it would be possible to pull off an illusion thing, so long as the illusion wouldn't break by touching, right?<br /><br />Also, we were talking this over on the MB (Burr and I, him doing all the research--thanks for that, BTW), and Asmodean died going to the pantry right after (or possibly right before, knowing how RJ plays with time sometimes), and Bashere showed up before Rand WITH SOME WINE. Asmo was looking for wine, remember?<br /><br />Kinda makes you think, eh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 19:25:21
subject: <b>Llaydwhon (sorry if I got that wrong)</b>
body:
The questioners want Morgase because SHE'S A TAR VALON WITCH! (accompanied with gnashing of teeth and foaming of the mouth). The whitecloaks in general have a hatred of the Aes Sedai, and the questioners are the inquisition (think religious extremists) of the whitecloaks. They hate the Aes Sedai with a passion verging on the obscene. They don't need any other reason to want Morgase than that she went to Tar Valon to be trained.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 19:52:58
subject: <b>In response to the hatered smell</b>
body:
He smelled Rage on taim he was frustrated to the point where it almost over powered the RAGE. Distinguish between hatered and rage will you? Dont they both stem out of the same thing. <br /> Idiots are abound. When you rule out the obvious you are left fighting over stupid ideas like this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 19:58:39
subject: <b>Gawyn as Demandred</b>
body:
Okay, I posted it as a theory, but all pending theories are cleared and it didn't go through, so I'll post it here:<br /><br />I picked the wrong brother. Not Galad...but Gawyn. And hear me out!<br /><br /><br />I. As best we can tell, pretty much hates Rand. Consistent with Demandred.<br /><br />II. Is never around. He's always bouncing to and fro with the Younglings. This would let him do some Traveling to those meetings. <br /><br />III. Was instrumental in the breaking of the tower. To everyone's surprise, he proved more dangerous than Galad. We're getting too many 'sudden' blademasters for comfort. Aram is one thing...Gawyn had training, but wasn't all that noteworthy before...Rand is LTT re-born, so was essentially 'remembering', not learning.  Suddenly, Gawyn is more dangerous than any Warder.  Demandred was pretty nifty with a blade.<br /><br />IV. He's had a pretty dramatic personality shift recently, going from happy-go-lucky to ruthless. Whether it's RJ's writing or what-not, he and others are adamant in not knowing what's actually happened about the Lion Throne -- yet they should. And, he was already mad at Rand about Elayne. He's just really mad about Rand for any given reason (sounds like D, eh?).<br /><br />V. He's in the perfect hiding spot.  What male channeler is going to even THINK about looking for him buried amidst all those Red Ajah?  Who's going to notice if he channels?  And he has Mesaana to help.<br /><br />VI. He has -definitely- caused pleasing strife for the DO. Heck, he was instrumental in the breaking of the Tower. <br /><br />VII. His admittedly quick 'romance' with Egwene has been conducted largely through TAR. I don't recall that he had any particular mastery over it, but I don't recall that he didn't. And I think all Forsaken can enter it.  And in the dream world, if you know the rules, you can affect a lot...<br /><br />VIII. He's mentioned as maybe breaking Egwene's neck.  Is this the thing that has Mat fighting to get to her side to save her?<br /><br />IX.  We have never seen things from HIS perspective (if I recall; could be wrong here). <br /><br />A lot of this is contingent upon being able to use a disguise with the power, even of, perhaps, another person.  Who in the tower would know?  Elaida is rather readily manipulated and tends to see what she wants to see. She could simply see Gawyn as acting in a worthy manner. I don't know of anyone else who would know him enough to tell.<br /><br />Plus, we KNOW the Forsaken can use disguise (Lanfear in the waste?)  and they can do it without people who can channel noticing.  Don't anyone try to tell me that all those Aiel dreamers and channelers would not have picked up on SOMETHING about having a Forsaken in their midst if the Chosen didn't have that ability! The catch is whether they could impersonate someone specific. <br /><br />This not only puts Demandred in a good position to affect a lot of things (the tower, among others), but it also sets him up as a natural opponent to Rand that could jeopardize Al'Thor's relations with a powerful nation.  What would Elayne do if her brother and her betrothed fought?  Who would she help?  No matter what the answer is, chaos would ensue.<br /><br />If you accept the possibility of disguise/impersonation -- and we have no reason yet not to -- then Gawyn is a very solid candidate.<br />


created: 2001-11-01 23:19:49
subject: <b>That Jerk Whitecloak</b>
body:
Just thought I would let you know that the person that said &quot;That Jerk Whitecloak&quot; probably meant Eamon Valda.  I figure this as I am currently REreading LoC and he seems one of the Jerkiest Whitecloaks I have read of.  This is my second time through the series and I have not read WH yet, but that Valda guy is a real Tool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />First among Asha'man<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />Slayer of Shadowspawn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Chihuahuabrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 09:30:33
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
I don't know why I thought Bashere was so much smaller than Demandred. I mean, my mind pretty much decides what a character looks like and ignores some of the book descriptions (Thom's short in my head, I can't shake the image). Couple that with reading in so many posts that Bashere is short, I guess I've assumed it's true. I don't know anymore if Bashere is short or not, but it's possible that he's still quite a bit smaller than Demandred whatever height he is. Rand is surely quite a bit taller than Bashere being an average height Aielman and according to Lanfear he is the same height as LTT. Now going on how Demandred has always been only just behind LTT in almost all things, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find he is only just shorter than him too.<br /><br />We've seen things through Bashere's viewpoint haven't we? I distinctly remember it during Rand's attack on the Seanchan in ACoS and I'd have thought we'd have got some sort of hint from Jordan against Bashere being, well, Bashere. I don't rememebr any hints, but maybe I should read it again.


created: 2001-11-02 10:23:49
subject: <b>Gawyn can't be eithar</b>
body:
wh had aPOV in whice he think about been,well gawyn!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 12:11:21
subject: <b>User</b>
body:
Are you constantly high/drunk or something? Most of your posts I have to translate and that last one I didn't understand at all.


created: 2001-11-02 12:47:15
subject: <b>.no.</b>
body:
English is just not my mother language, so I don't write in it very well.<br />I know I probably need to stop posting if no one understand me, so I will try <br />To be more understandable.<br />What I meant to say was Gawyn as Demandred idea is impossible, since we had a POV<br />Of him, in which we clearly learn about him being the real think. <br />Sorry for my bad English<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 15:29:48
subject: <b>Ah,</b>
body:
I see. Your English was fine in that last post by the way, perfectly understandable. I don't think Gawyn is Demandred either and not just because of his PoV. His hatred for Rand is only to be expected as he thinks he killed his mother and at the end of LoC he offers to take Min out of the battle...why would Demandred do that?


created: 2001-11-02 23:34:08
subject: <b>Gawyn and Min</b>
body:
Gawyn would offer to take Min out because she is a source of prophecy and information that would invaluable to the DO???  Maybe Gawyn (or Demandred as Gawyn) doesn't know about her gift, but he very well may.  And if he is Demandred in disguise, he certainly would know from the DO.<br /><br />Everyone looks at the Forsaken as 'pure' evil. I think they overlook the fact that they frequently have very noble behavior, very lordly. They were lords, after all, and a certain set of behavior would carry over.<br /><br />Maybe he just took her out because it wasn't her place, and she was a beautiful women in over her head. I'm not saying this is so, but we have seen some of the Forsaken capable of not-utter-evil.<br /><br />by the way, I was looking about disguises, and saw when Rand disguised himself as Nuhli (or whatever Min called him), the hideously ugly disguise he used in Caemlyn before Elayne ravished him, he was thinking about how the disguise was shorter. It just had to 'seem' that way.  So it's possible for Forsaken to change heights with disguise.<br /><br />I still haven't found anything about Demandred thinking as Gawyn.<br /><br />So far, no one's put up a good challenge to this.


created: 2001-11-03 04:55:09
subject: <b>demandred is dobraine...</b>
body:
the short and simple answer is Demandred is and always has been dobraine. and for the simpliest answers,<br />1. dobraine didnt show up until rand had taken cairhein. wouldnt it seem plausible that such a high ranking lord would have been at the party in TGH? we know breane taborwin was, so dobraine should have been there too, but there is no mention of him.<br />2. breane ran off during the civil war, wouldnt it be normal for a high ranking lady to return after the civil war was over? especially since a relative of the house,(possibly her father)is rising so high?<br />3. demandred helped rand when he was taken by the aes sedai.  he knew right where rand was and exactly what happened.  since we know he is not taim, that points to dobraine.<br />4. we know demandred was in a position close to rand to keep an eye on him.  for that to happen, it had to be someone he trusts. there are very few people rand actually trusts.<br />5. egwene had a dream of rand sitting on a throne, a man was behind him with a dagger, but rand didnt see him.  obviosly this is symbolic of one his enemies getting into his inner circle.  someone rand doesnt see? or doesnt suspect...<br />6.for such a high ranking lord, and obviosly in the dragon reborn's favor, he should be free to express opinions. but he never does. he always waits for rand to tell him what to think and do. (ex. the downfall of colavere.)<br /><br />i belive demandred is dobraine.  and it will all come to a head when perrin, faile(sigh, i hate her too) and morgase and the rest of the bunch all meet up again with rand, where we will find out faile's maid is the queen, breane is dobraines daughter and demandred will be recognized as a fraud because the real dobraine was kiled during the civil war, or something like that


created: 2001-11-03 07:18:55
subject: <b>It batter then demandred is Bashere but..</b>
body:
Asmo talk to dobraine inTFOH in &#8221;after the storm&#8221;, and demandred didn&#8217;t know anything about asmo, so it can&#8217;t be him.<br />However there is a intrusting line in this dialog in which asmo compress dobriaine to the forsaken, hmmm&#8230;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-03 12:50:11
subject: <b>Jeremias...</b>
body:
you are certainly perfectly right. But: Would RJ point this out in this dramatical way if it was only the hatred of a Whitecloak against a Tower trained woman? And would Asanuwa really agree that Valda used Morgase before he got her? Those are the things that make me a bit suspicious... <br />By the way, I can&#180;t imagine Valda being Dem as he already appeared in TGH or even EotW, before Dem was freed...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 07:45:55
subject: <b>Demandred is not Gawyn. here is the proof!</b>
body:
In LOC at the Prologue &quot;the first massage&quot; the 5 POV is Gawyn POV an in it Gawyn think: &quot; Gawyn, who just a couple of years ago turn 20, was the oldest in the bunch&quot;<br /><br />Demandred is not 20 years old. He is 3000 years old.<br />If this isn&#8217;t proof enough, for you here is another quota from his POV<br />&quot;But if his mother died.. Elayne , If they die, he will see if the dragon reborn can live with a sword in his heart!&quot;<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 12:18:06
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
Masema seems possible... I'd have to reread for evidence.<br /><br />A powerful enemy deep within the good guy ranks  --  does not necessarily indicate Rand.  I don't think we shoudl rule out people around other main characters, just because they don't have contact with Rand.<br /><br />As for my own ideas...  I'm little oout of them until I reread some more.<br /><br />We have all the clues?  Well, I'm going ot go through and write them all down...  in December after my exams.<br /><br />~Evamarie~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 09:11:01
subject: <b>Min's viewings and Bashere/Demandred theory</b>
body:
Unfortunately for your theory and many others out there, anyone that is suspect had better not have run into Min.<br />So far anyone who can channel and has encountered Min, has caused her to &quot;see&quot;  images.  Bashere and many <br />suspects that Min has encountered have not elicited this response. Of course Min doesn't always comment on her<br />viewings so it is possible that she might have missed something. However, those who wield the one power elicit <br />more images than those who can not channel. If Bashere could channel I am sure the amount of images around<br />him would have given Min occasion to comment, especially the amount of time she spent around him in the past. <br />Also Rand's purpose for keeping Min around him, other than a booty call, was for her to advise him of the images <br />she viewed of people. So there is no way Bashere could be Demandred unless he has found someway to mask<br />himself from Min's vision let alone been able to find out about it before encountering Rand and Min so he could <br />prepare.<br /><br />Gnarzz


created: 2002-03-12 02:21:15
subject: <b>Where, oh where has my little Forsaken gone?</b>
body:
You know, I randomly considered this afternoon that maybe Demandred IS Taim, and Jordan didn't expect all this hoopla and speculation about his true identity, reread what he wrote and now is in a crap-load of trouble trying to puzzle out how he's still going to make Demandred Taim without inciting massive worldwide riots.  I laughed for a good five minutes straight on that.<br /><br />Not that I think Taim is Demandred myself at all.  Still, Bashere is ludicrous.  We've all been wrapped up in theory after theory, so much so that we sometimes forget the following statement:  <br /><br />&quot;if there's something in the story that doesn't appear what it seems, remember that the other 99% of the story DOES have to be what it seems for the deception to work.&quot;<br /><br />Bashere is just too . . . good-guyish.  If Demandred is in Caemlyn, he's Halwin Norry.  If he's elsewhere, he's Child Byar or an Aiel chief (though I believe Rhuarc would also fall into the same category as Bashere).<br /><br />Next, we'll all be saying Lan is Demandred.  <br /><br />What precisely makes us believe Demandred is in Caemlyn?  Asmodean's death and Taim's knowledge of Demandred's information are the only indicators.  Asmodean might not have been killed by Demandred, and a quick bit of Travelling could have informed Taim of anything he needed to know.<br /><br />I think the Aiel would be a good choice for Demandred.  Although they are all kick-butt warriors, once a position of power was established, the Aiel would be loyal followers.  Secondly, who's closer to Rand than the Aiel?<br /><br />We'll have to see, of course, but I will never lose sleep thinking Bashere just might be Demandred.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-15 10:38:25
subject: <b>to braidtugger</b>
body:
obviously, you are one of the enlightened that after first reading EOTW, knew for a fact that nynaeve would become an aes sedai, marry lan, and become the best healer in her age.  i'm also to believe that you knew for a fact that rand was aiel, destined to become the head of all the clans, and was descendant from the royal blood of andor.  also, you knew that mat was a general many times over in past lives and would become the bad ass he is.  i'm sure you also viewed egwene as amyrilin (sp.), moraine as dead, thom as revived, and loial as a warrior.  you're calling MY theory ludicrous?  why don't you pick up a rifle, stand a post, and conjure up your own theory.  i'd be happy to blow holes in it!


created: 2002-05-17 08:40:59
subject: <b>RJ was talking about Dashiva</b>
body:
when RJ said he had planted a someone right smack dab in the middle of our heros I am sure he ment Dashiva at that point in time.


created: 2002-08-30 13:33:22
subject: <b>Demandredlocks</b>
body:
Well, from the CoT prologue, I think that Demandred is the guy who may have gated into (if that is what it was - a gateway) to the Whitecloak camp from Shayoul Ghul.  From the section regarding the Whitecloaks, he may be Asunawa also, although it's very un-Demandred from reading all his traits/characteristics.  I think he may just have his hand in everything.  I think he (and we know he does for some of them) has his hands in all the other Forsaken's business.  I'm beginning to doubt Dobraine = Demandred also after the CoT prologue.  And stop already with the Bashere/Demandred talk!  No, no, no, no, no. No way.  He still could be Taim. There are some conflictions there, but just as many or less than any other character. Demandred has been known factually in the series so far only to visit people.  Maybe that is all he's done?<br />-RSH<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-08 01:05:31
subject: <b>Obviousness</b>
body:
Has anyone though that possibly, Dem is Taim, and this is a trick by RJ. It is said in the guide to WoT, that servants of the Dark survive by hiding themselves, sometimes in plain sight.<br /><br />The glory of the Taimandred theory is that it is so obvious that it is usually discredited immediatly. What if it is a trick by RJ, to make us not see what is in front of our noses? Authors like to do that sort of thing, and remember, RJ never says anything without reason, so it's quite possible Taim is the way he is because he fits as Demandred.<br />After all, Taim appeared just after Asmodean was killed and FoH/LoC is where Demandred seems to begin taking a more active role in the story.<br /><br />Think on this. Tell me what you think.


created: 2001-10-30 02:27:32
subject: <b>Umm.........</b>
body:
How many tomes must Rand &quot;sheath the sword&quot; before everyone is satisfied???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 02:28:34
subject: <b>Oops!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Times I mean.<br /><br />Sorry<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 02:29:11
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
Rand will sacrifice himself for the world. HIGH FIVE!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 08:11:38
subject: <b>I'm almost certain</b>
body:
that the sheathing of the sword took place at the end of the Great Hunt against Ishamael.<br /><br />I don't think Rand will sacrifice himself to save the world. He may well die trying to save the world, but he will have either figured out what was meant by &quot;to live, you must die&quot; and therefore he'll have figured out it isn't really a sacrifice or he'll do what needs to be done but not with the idea of sacrificing himself in his head. He knows he has to do whatever is necessary, but if there is the chance he can save himself as well he will. So unless Rand can see no way to save the world than to kill himself in some scenario, I doubt it'll actually be a sacrifice.


created: 2001-10-30 11:24:56
subject: <b>Hmmm. Possibly.</b>
body:
But I think that Lan told him only to sheathe the sword if there is no other choice. Somehow I think this will tie into the part where Alivia &quot;helps Rand die&quot;. That is one of Min's Viewings in WH, if you recall. But for this to happen a big illusion will have to be made, (lots of the power) and Alivia will help with it. Nice thinking though! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 11:59:36
subject: <b>TGH</b>
body:
Yes... as 3 said, Sheathing the Sword was a phrase to be used in the depths of book 2, and book 2 alone.  It helped move the plot line that Rand will have to sacrifice himself, though.  Yet it may not be in the conventional way that he does so.  It seems, at the moment, the DR must die in some fasion to complete &quot;The Wheel of Time&quot; or at least keep the cycle moving without the hindrance of the shadow.<br /><br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 14:33:35
subject: <b>hmmmmmm?</b>
body:
how would rand committing suicide BEFORE tarmon gaidon help further the prophecies?  do you mean that he will commit suicide, then the whole of US will have to wait for him to be bloody reborn again?  then fight at tarmon gaidon?  or do you mean that either rand or LTT will somehow commit suicide without harming the other, thus leaving only one mind in control of rand's body, then the rumble in tarmon gaidon?  i thought it was more of a sacrifice than suicide?


created: 2001-10-30 21:10:25
subject: <b>Lews Therin and Precedent</b>
body:
I'm not sure what I think about that, but it is worth noting that Lews Therin committed suicide before, when he was healed of his insanity.  Perhaps he was trying to burn clean the taint, instead of just venting, but as I said, there IS precedent in the personality for suicide.


created: 2001-10-30 23:12:08
subject: <b>Nifty stuff yo</b>
body:
Well first off I think the &quot;to live you must die&quot; thing could be referring to the dragon rather than Rand. If he dies then he'll be reborn.<br /><br />   I got the impression that sheathing the sword was what Ingtar did at the end of book 2. It could have been the battle with B'Alzamon as well.<br /><br />   Perhaps Rand might need to kill himself to keep from going to the dark one. By the way I'm thinking you meant Rand dying then getting resurrected in the same series right?<br /><br />   I personally don't want to see Rand get resurrected. If he fakes his death that's cool. If he dies and gets reborn while every other person that dies is just not important enough that doesn't sit well with me. I think it'd be a ballzy move on RJs' part to kill Rand permanently.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 05:06:25
subject: <b>Maybe Nyn will work a miracle</b>
body:
Wasn't there something about how she wouldn't be satisfied until she'd Healed someone three days dead? Well, Rand might eventually meet that specification, and then she could heal him (like on the day of TG).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 20:05:46
subject: <b>Question:</b>
body:
Is there something anywhere about one Dragon per age? If that's the case, and if, as expected, TG is the end of this age, then he CANNOT survive into the next, can he? <br /><br />Unless, of course, this is the age that breaks the cycle...


created: 2001-11-01 09:45:04
subject: <b>YES!</b>
body:
Right on Vashti...I attempted to post a theory with much of the same idea throughout.  I hope it goes up...to see what you think.  It seems to me RJ could be going with the destruction of The Wheel of Time, and the birth of a new, &quot;linear&quot; age.  Just a thought...<br /><br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 19:07:58
subject: <b>HIstory 101</b>
body:
I class I learned about a time when a commander(he was Chinese) went up to a general and committed suicide. This distraction let his army conquer thier enemy. This could be exactly why Rand would commit suicide.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 16:42:06
subject: <b>Rand's Fake Suicide</b>
body:
Thought&amp;Memory talked about one of Min's viewings where someone will help Rand to die and how a big illusion will be made of his death.<br />I think all the things about Rand committing suicide will all tie in with Egwene's vision of Logain stepping over the paper puppet of Rand.<br />As for sheathing the sword, I agree with whoever said they thought it was done with. Maybe he will use it again but I doubt it, its already been used once and I credit RJ with a bit more originality than that!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 21:34:37
subject: <b>What??????</b>
body:
I have always thought that the reference to Seathing The Sword was to when he took Ishy's staff to the <br />side over Flame, not sucuide, but giving for another. Which would be Engwene. Unless I am totally out of<br />my mind. well tell me<br />later<br />paul


created: 2002-02-25 21:41:46
subject: <b>Re: Rand's suicide and other thoughts</b>
body:
He already did the 'Sheathing the Sword' thing. When we was fighting in Falme. Why do you think he has that flaming unhealable wound in his side?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 12:40:11
subject: <b>The Dark One says...</b>
body:
If Rand dies there will be no coming back for him. As it was stated earlier the Dark One's fingers lay across the pattern and should Rand die he will not be reborn.


created: 2002-06-17 01:08:48
subject: <b>The Difference</b>
body:
It is important to see the difference between suicide and self-sacrifice. I think Rand will sacrifice himself, and I don't think that the end of the series will involve him escaping from the world of dreams. Humph.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Shorty, Pastor of Muppets<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Embiggens is a perfectly cromulent word.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I bet Einstein turned himself all sorts of colors before he invented the light bulb.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: I'm sexy. Really. Really really sexy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-27 20:32:49
subject: <b>Just my opinion</b>
body:
In my opinion, anyone who HOPES that Rand will commit suicide is a fatherless daughter of a spavined dog riding grave robbing goat kissing Trolloc.<br />If, however, you do not, or if you're like me, then GO YOU cubed.


created: 2003-01-10 10:23:51
subject: <b>NO!</b>
body:
One thing. Birgitte WAS NOT REBORN!!!!!! She was never actually born. She was ripped from the world of dreams. Since it`s an area slightly outside of reality her existance in it, then removed from it works in sort of the same way as the Wise one`s fear of entering T`A`R` in the flesh. It`s slowly stripping her of her soul. This is why her memories are fading.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 11:47:15
subject: <b>Sheathing the Sword was already used...</b>
body:
Maybe somebody already said this in a post but I didnt bother readin the other comments.  Lans idea of &quot;Heathing the Sword&quot; was implemented when Rand fought Ba'alzmon in the sky.  He allowed Ba'alzamon to strike him, so he in turn could strike at his enemy.  I thik Rand even says to himself &quot;time to sheathe the sword&quot; or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-30 12:45:48
subject: <b>Not possible</b>
body:
If Rand were to commit suicide then that act goes against Prophecies, which clearly state that &quot;he&quot; will die at the last battle but not by his own hand. If he were to kill him self he would do harm to Elayne, Aviendha and Min and doing harm to them is the last thing he wants.


created: 2001-10-31 16:22:01
subject: <b>I've wondered...</b>
body:
Although I think your theory is not applicable to the series/story (I'm not even sure how serious you were<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />), I have often wondered where LTT's title as The Dragon came from.  It's in the books I believe, but I cannot recall.  Can someone refresh my memory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 16:32:00
subject: <b>Waaaaa????</b>
body:
In the words of Dr. Evil, &quot;Riiiiiiiiiiiiight&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 16:48:28
subject: <b>Ok Ras</b>
body:
We get the message, the site get's a lot of crap theories. Now that we fully understand said message, can you stop posting them please?<br /><br />Oh and I believe the explanation for the name Dragon is that the people needed a name for the creature on LTT's banner in the AoL and called it Dragon. Where the symbol or name came from is unknown, but I would guess their were either tales of dragons in those times or in some past age dragons actually did exist (possibly as a different sort of Shadowspawn) and a vague memory entered people's concious when they saw the symbol. Possibly.


created: 2001-10-31 17:15:15
subject: <b>Right on.</b>
body:
Thanks. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 17:43:24
subject: <b>hell... another crap theory</b>
body:
a theory based on RPG i hate the thing sure i myself play alot of rpg. and llt maybe are a dragon and maybe pigs did fly...


created: 2001-10-31 18:57:20
subject: <b>Yeah!</b>
body:
I'm glad everyone sees the message.  Now spread the word!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 22:11:47
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
LTT was born like everybody else.  I can't remember if it was Sammael or Demandred ( I'm thinking Dem ) was born one day afterwards.  I'm sure everybody would have known if he was not born human.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 23:06:48
subject: <b>Anywhooo...</b>
body:
Ok, what you said about basing (is that a word?) your theory on RPG... I wouldn't take that as hard evidence. I'm sure the goal of every fantasy writer, or any writer for that matter, is to make it as different as possible from other books in that field (or RPG's in that field!) and still make it interesting. If Robert Jordan based his books on RPG's, that would just break my heart.<br /><br />        But I do believe your theory can be a possiblity. I never really paid attention to what you said about Moghedien, but I was thinking about Lews Therin actually being a Dragon. If Dragons existed before or during the Age of Legends, how come nobody else could acquire the title &quot;Dragon&quot;? How did Lews Therin Telaboy acquire that title in the first place? Maybe he did something with a Dragon (like having a Dragon's soul trapped in him or something, I don't know), or maybe he IS a Dragon. You call a person the &quot;Lord Dragon&quot;, and he has a Dragon on his banner, and on his clothes, and even permanently tattooed on his arms, which by the way, didn't come from your normal Tattoo parlour, but a bunch of old memories and glass columns. Maybe RJ is only shoving straight in our face the fact that Rand al'thor is a Dragon, but we just can't see it. I know what I said won't make much sense, but I'm standing with... Goddamn! I just thought about that RPG thing I wrote at the beginning, and now it's ruined my entire theory completely!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 03:03:21
subject: <b>Um.........</b>
body:
This theory was just so sad I had to say something.(I'm still mentally cringing)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 16:30:38
subject: <b>Clear some confusion</b>
body:
alright one this theory was barely hald serious. and the comment i made about RPG's is that if RJ uses mythology why can't he use some other things like vague conscepts from  other book series and ideas of creatures. but i state once again the theory wasn't even HALD SERIOUS ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 18:45:41
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
It is an intresting theory after all, even though I am not sure if it is true. The Dragon has to come from something...<br />But I can't see how Lanfear would fall in love with a Dragon or Demandred and Sammael more than ever wishes to kill a Dragon in a duel. Maybe they are Dragons too... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />For the honor of J.R.R.Tolkien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Gambler, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> Tharand, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 19:27:04
subject: <b>SO I suppose Dracula is a dragon?</b>
body:
Recall that the Dracula Mythos is based on Vladimir Tepes. He was also known as Vlad The Impaler and the Dragon. The Romanian word for Dragon IIRC sound roughly like Drakuelya, or Dracula. <br /><br />   So if he was called the Dragon then I suppose that he was also a dragon in human form? Can we add a category for crap theories? If someone gets enough crap votes (that should not be seen as the same thing as disagreement votes) then they get put in the crap theories section.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 01:36:37
subject: <b>I'm with three...any idiot can post nowadays.</b>
body:
So anybody notice how smart some of these people think they are when they post theories like:<br /><br />&quot;Demandred is NOT Taim!!!! I have proof&quot;<br />or<br />&quot;Moridin is probably Ishmael reborn!&quot;<br />or<br />&quot;I think Rand is Lews Therin reborn&quot;<br /><br />ok the last one is a bit extreme but still, we have people who have probably skimmed the books decide to post their brilliant analysis of what RJ is thinking. The theory post isn't nearly as stimulating as it once was.<br /><br />We get the point Raserei that idiots posts, enough already!<br /><br />Torin the Chosen <br />


created: 2001-11-02 10:34:12
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
You know, the one who feels most inadequate, tends to lash out the most.  Who cares if some of the theories are crap.  To be so elitist defeats the purpose of a site like this.  It's supposed to be, for the most part fun, not an actual science.  Get off your high horse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 12:21:46
subject: <b>Shut up</b>
body:
It's that sort of attitude that leads to so many crap communities on the internet. The really high quality sites are those that don't stand for any crap being posted on them and they are few and far between. Wotmania is one of those places and I'd like it to stay that way.<br /><br />Besides, it's not just that they are crap theories. It's also that far better theories aren't being put up. I would think that most people are like me and can accept that their theory hasn't been put up no matter how good you personally thought it was, unless of course theories that are clearly inferior (to everyone) do get shown. Then it gets annoying and you start complaining that if one theory got put up, why wasn't mine? etc. It is not a good thing.


created: 2001-11-02 12:47:19
subject: <b>:s</b>
body:
You, &quot;would think most people are like you...&quot; eh?<br />Enough said...<br />And, &quot;Shut up&quot;?  Nice.  Real nice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 15:24:53
subject: <b>Why...</b>
body:
...should I be nice when you've accused others of being inadequate and elitist and told them to get down off their high horses?<br /><br />I have no idea what you are getting at with your quote and &quot;Enough said...&quot;. What's enough said? What have you said? I do think that most people are like me when it comes to not having their theories accepted. I don't see loads of people posting all over these blackboards complaining that their theories haven't been posted, do you? Yet theories are discarded all of the time, so my only assumption can be that people don't mind it.<br /><br />Rather than just saying &quot;Enough said...&quot;, why don't you actually say something and point out to me the benefit to this site if it posts crap theories. I can think of one, a demonstration of the sort of rubbish they get sent. That's fine, but they've done it now. Any others?


created: 2001-11-02 15:40:35
subject: <b>Oh I see</b>
body:
&quot;It's supposed to be, for the most part fun&quot;<br /><br />How did I ever miss this? It's all about fun! Why don't we all have &quot;fun&quot; then!<br /><br />I'll submit a theory that Rand won't die because I play a lot of computer games and using that as evidence, the main characters don't often die. Surely RJ will have taken some of his ideas from videogames.<br /><br />Lord Sauvant can submit a theory that Elayne will turn out to be Rand's only love interest as he watches a lot of TV and the fact that it's often the blonde girl in that role is clearly evidence.<br /><br />Yes, I understand it now. I don't know why I was so blind before. Obviously the more theories like this we have the better and more fun the site will be. let us all submit such fun theories.


created: 2001-11-02 16:12:02
subject: <b>I dub thee 3, The Fool's Ass.</b>
body:
You prove yourself more and more a jack ass each theory and post I read by you.  You are the one who started the insulting, and I'm not the first person you have done this to.  You are an elitist moron who attempts to bully everyone into thinking like you do, and when people don't see it your way you get diarrhea of the mouth (or fingers in this case) and spout off in your angry, &quot;my gilfriend doesn't think I'm big enough&quot; way.  The only crap that streams into this site comes from your small, bile filled brain.  I'm through playing this sophomoric game with you as I think you are neither worthy, nor intelligent enough for me to correspond with anymore.  I suggest you do not write again and embarrass yourself further.<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 17:32:03
subject: <b>Three, you need to calm down.</b>
body:
WHen someone says something that they think is funny but that you think is stupid, you simply don't listen to them. You certainly don't go on about how &quot;they shouldn't be allowed to speak anymore becuase of the stupid stuff they say&quot;. That would be inhumane and a decision based solely on personal inflection. It's the same here. If he posts something you think is not funny, then don't read any more posts by him. And trying to say that sites shouldn't post stuff like that is simply egotisty and bigotry. To some people, that was funny, and if even no one else liked it, at least the author did. Since he was entertained, you shouldn't complain just becuase you didn't like it. Don't act like it should be removed just because you- and even if it was everyone else in the world besides the author-didn't like it. Like he said, get off your high horse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No longer a user of the forbidden &quot;P&quot; word.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-03 08:18:46
subject: <b>First</b>
body:
mauladala <br /><br />I started the insulting? When did I start this? I don't see a problem with calling a theory crap if that's how I see it, after all, what's the blackboard for if not to right what you think about the theory? I don't attack the author personally though, unlike you have. I think we all know who is being insulting here. Rather than just insulting me, why don't you actually try adressing some of my points and arguing for your cause? Oh, but I forgot, I'm not worthy of answers anymore am I? Not that that's backing out at all. I guess that means you're not going to tell me the advantages to theories that everyone can see are wrong at a glance. Damn, I really wanted to know.<br /><br />&quot;You prove yourself more and more a jack ass each theory and post I read by you&quot;<br /><br />That's very strange, I've seen you agree with me before. Oh yes, I've written 2 theories that are posted on this site, please point out how they make me look like a jackass.<br /><br />&quot;You know, the one who feels most inadequate, tends to lash out the most.&quot;<br /><br />Oh oh, now I'm no expert on this matter, but it seems clear to me who has been lashing out most.<br /><br />Ashaman Nash<br /><br />I agree, if someone posts something meant to be funny and I don't find it funny, I just don't say anything. However, I see no indication that this post is meant to be seen as a humourous post and clearly Raserei didn't either as it's in the Randland Science section (hmmm, time to rename), rather than the Humorous Theories section. Now afterwards, the author has come along and said it was only meant to be half serious. Now I don't know whether that means he meant it to go into the humourous theories section or a section like this, but notice that after that post I did indeed stop adressing this particular theory. I decided that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was meant to be humourous, my posts after that have been addressing others.<br /><br />As I have said before, I'm just trying to keep this a high quality site. I don't honestly see a benefit to the site or the site's community (other than us understanding what crap theories the staff get sent, which wenow know) from these being posted. If that's what being on a high horse is, the fine, I'm on a high horse and I'm glad I am. Somebody has to be.<br /><br />Please remember that there are others who agree with me. You only have to look at comments on a couple of the recent theories to see this. So it's not like I'm a lone voice in the crowd here. It's completely understandable that they don't want to get involved here, I mean, I doubt I'll ever be able to write a post again without mauladala searching for anything he can insult me with and if I ever make a mistake he might immediately jump on it and blame lack of research etc, I just don't know. Luckily I don't mind that, especially as I know anyone who has read this argument will understand what's going on. I for one am quite willing to carry on the debate here (as long as points are actually addressed rather than ignored and I simply get insulted in greater capacities each time), but I'm not going to take it outside of this blackboard. If I see a good theory from mauladala, I'm gonna say it's a good theory. Hopefully those I'm arguing with can too.<br /><br />You at least Ashaman Nash seem to be having a proper argument with me, so I'll try and carry on with you. I've already addressed the main part of your theory, so I think we should be clear on that now, but I don't understand your idea that even if the staff and the people who read it don't think the theory is any good at all, it should still be posted simply because the person who write it got enjoyment out of that. I mean, that's just a messageboard. What would be the point of the staff at all if that was the way things were done? Every theory would have to be put up, it might as well just be automatic. I also don't see how the person who wrote it is getting any extra pleasure from seeing it posted. Surely they'd get a whole lot less pleasure by reading our comments that completely dispel the theory than they would if it was simply rejected by the staff.


created: 2001-11-04 10:29:55
subject: <b>HOLY CRAP</b>
body:
oh wow you people are sad you all need to shut the frick up and not look at the series as a thing of debate. yes i believe that people should express their opinion of subjects but my god the series is intended to be fun to read and not for people to get into huge ass debates over what people think is right about it or not and when the series is done and we find that some of the theories are right and a bunch wrong the people who were right shouldn't gloat and the theory board is supposed to be so that people can express their opinion and not get insulted over and over for and once again this is all FOR FUN!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 23:15:54
subject: <b>Three is right, Shadow, Nash, and Mauduala are freaks.</b>
body:
No easier way to put it.  If you'd bother to read any of Three's posts you'll see that he's insightful and intelligent.  We agree on many points (LIKE THIS LAMEASS THEORY) but we also disagree on many others.  I respect him, so we can have a healthy debate.  Disagreeing with somebody doesn't mean we have to come to hateful language to one another, UNLESS, some people (like Nash, Mauduala, and Shadow) cannot accept criticism or a healthy debate.  Three has good ideas, and you all could learn alot from him, like we all learn from one another.  <br />    People of limited intelligence and get angry and defensive when somebody says something they don't like.  Thanks for proving it.<br />    Again this goes back to this being a very poor post, a bad choice and proves 3's point that there is no real rhyme or reason to what gets posted, good ones are discarded, and bad ones get defended by pouting children.


created: 2001-11-06 10:08:19
subject: <b>After reading all of your comments</b>
body:
I have come to the conclusion, that Three needs to relax.<br />Though on the whole, he is right.  mualala didn't write to the point, and has a tendency to be insulting.  <br />And this 'theory', if it was a little more crap, it would be spam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 11:10:24
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
I don't feel I have a tendency to be insulting to anyone barring those that are flat out rude to others. (e.g. Three in a Boat)  If people think that, I humbly apologize.  But I will also say, try reading the posts under &quot;Where in the World is Carmen San, oops!, Demandred?&quot;  I find it interesting that Three... was in a very similar conflict with another WoTmaniac, princeofthedawn.  Subsequently, I would like to apologize to prince... and acknowledge that he was right.  If you read the posts you will see the very aforementioned attitude that I, PERSONALLY, am against.  Some understood my point, and some didn't.  That matters little.  I speak for no one, except myself.  I have never insulted anyone, save Three, and my opinion about something being &quot;elitist&quot; is just that... an opinion.  I recognize that, and have never alluded to the contrary.<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 16:30:16
subject: <b>Woah there!</b>
body:
Now come on, that other argument DEFINTELY was a misunderstanding...there's not even any doubt in that. Prince thought I'd called his theory crap when I hadn't at all, he'd simply misread.<br /><br />Now, back to this argument. I'd honestly like to know where I've been openly insulting. I suppose &quot;shut up&quot; could be seen as insulting, if you're weak enough, but I don't think you'd get offended by that. So it must be something else. I do my very best to keep insults out of posts, they're pointless unless it's the case where it's the only thing the other person understands, which here I don't believe is the case. Making well thought out points is far more effective. Some people do use insults, that's just there way, it's not mine.<br /><br />You say you speak for no one but yourself, that's fair enough. However, why you have chosen me as your soul target is a little confusing. I don't really want to bring others into this, it's hardly their choice, but I'm gonna have to. Torin the Chosen has defended me as I defended him and others earlier. Like I said, some people use insults more than others, it can't be helped and he's been far more rude to you than I have. He does of course explain why he's like this in this instance. Now I'm not after you insulting him too, of course not, I just want to know why you aren't when you say you are only insulting to people who have been to you.<br /><br />Also, you say it's just your opinion when something is elitist. That's true. I only question why you seem to think only I am the one being elitist. Is it because I have gone against your post while others haven't? If that's the case it's hardly fair. Mow admittedly some of these posters don't use the words &quot;this theory is crap&quot; in their posts, but if you look at what they do say, you can see that is what they mean (of anyone wants to correct me on that, please do). AOBtD, mordread, TaisharManetheren, Raserei, X RL W1 A, skald, Lord Sauvant, Torin the Chosen. That's on this theory blackboard. From other recent theories, I can add more names who have this elitist attitude if you wish (try looking at Ogier or Wolf Brothers).<br /><br />So my questions are, if you are insulting those who are rude to you, why not Torin (sorry if this causes you any grief Torin) and if it's the elitist attitude that is bothering you, why are you directing all the hate(?) at just me? Oh yes, and just in case you forgot, the other question was, how exactly am I being insulting?


created: 2001-11-07 04:51:43
subject: <b>Really now</b>
body:
errrr.....interesting posts here. But before I stray from the true purpose...... I don't think Rand or LLT are big scaley creatures in human form but there has to be somthing special about him.  Why is he the chosen warrior of light.  Why is it that he is the most powerful male channeler in each of his lifetimes (this one and the age of legends anyway).  Maybe in one of his long forgoten lifetimes, or maybe even his very first, There were Dragons, and he infact was one of them.  Despite the fact that it was based off of rpg's it has at least some validity.  Maybe they did just come up with it just to name the creature that were on his banners. But there is nothing that says the people in that time didn't know what a dragon was.  If im correct, they named HIM dragon, not his banners.  They probably already knew what a dragon was, and named him after the horrible creature on his banner because of what he did to the world, or maybe because of what he did, they suspected that he was indeed a dragon.  I myself seriously doubt it, but what im saying is that it's not impossible.  We know next to nothing about any of the other Ages except that they were.  There are little bits here and there, that Thom mentions in early books from Gleeman tales, but that's it.  So who knows?  RJ might just spring on us that in the first Age, the first LLT or Rand, or whatever he was called in his first lifetime, was indeed a dragon.  Who's to say that he was human in all of those many ages.  He could have been born an ogre in one of them.  I don't believe this true lol, but if you go and tell a writer that it can't happen, it will.  So all we can do is hope that In the end or before the end, RJ inlightens us on why he is truly called The Dragon/Dragon Reborn.


created: 2001-11-07 17:22:11
subject: <b>Why not</b>
body:
Might I ask one question.  Why couldn't Rand have the spirit<br />of a dragon in him.  Why couldn't a previous Dragon Reborn have<br />been a dragon.  i know the jury is out on whether or not<br />they really exist, but I think that most of us would agree<br />that they probably do.  I think that this theory has merrit, <br />you just have to think about it a little from a different<br />perspective.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Master of all things Star Wars <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /><br />Duck R2!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 20:44:21
subject: <b>What Lews/Rand REALLY is</b>
body:
Lews/Rand are(is?) actually Giant Miniature Space Hamsters disguising themselves as humans for purposes unknown to our simple minds. How do I know this? Minsc told me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Asian pride world wide!&quot;<br />&quot;Go for the eyes Boo!&quot;-Minsc from Baldur's Gate<br />&quot;They need a smiley wearin' one of those asian field worker hats...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> my friend bobby<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> WOT4life!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> go Mat!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 16:54:53
subject: <b>The origin of the Dragon</b>
body:
Well some interesting comments here. First I'd just like to say that people should lay off this guy for having their theory posted. Whether you think its lame or not isn't the reason for it getting posted but I suspect more the fact that its different, something maybe people haven't considered before. If theories like this weren't put up for debate then what'd be the point of the theory post section?<br /><br />Anyway, nuff said methinks. Back to my point.<br /><br />Either Dragons in this world are just a myth or they do/did actually exist (Shara?). Either way, the Dragon would probably have a reputation for being an intelligent creature, very hard to kill and ferocious in battle. Probably similar qualities to those that Lews Therin himself possessed. Hence his nickname &quot;The Dragon&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 22:36:14
subject: <b>I think we've missed the real point here...</b>
body:
...which is that almost 30% of people think that this theory is correct. I am truly mystified...I wonder of that's the same 30% that still think that Taim is Demandred...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 22:17:23
subject: <b>No way hosea</b>
body:
I really doubt that theory. Partly because the fact that Lews Thearin(I know its spelt wrong) was a dragon in disguise was just odd. And besides I think it would be in the history books or in children stories at that if it was true. And I know its not a really good reason but its what I believe. By the way jsut because dragons are mystical creatures that can breathe fire and are magic don't mean they were really meant that Lews Thearin was a dragon in disguise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The ever watchful <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> of the creator<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 23:56:52
subject: <b>To'Raken</b>
body:
To'Raken and Raken are big flying lizard's, no? <br />1)well just because they are called To'Raken and Raken now, doesn't mean they were always called so.<br /><br />2) If there are already to similiar species of flying lizard like creatures, then why can't there be one more (if neither of them were once called dragon) maybe a older and larger species that number one or two... or maybe even are completely extinct.


created: 2002-03-18 12:09:43
subject: <b>Therin didn't accept his nickname</b>
body:
In the prologue of tEotW, Ishamael reminds LTT that, while LTT didn't accept being called the Dragon, ishy accepted and revelled in the 'Betrayer of Hope' tag. Your theory is cool, but not water-holding worthy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 22:51:08
subject: <b>JERRY JERRY JERRY!</b>
body:
* Warning this post has nothing to do with this theory *<br /><br /><br />Lol wow this is fun, chaos can be fun and you guys (mashada or w/e, and 3 in a boat) have entertained me quite a bit!  Haha thank you guys and im sorry I have no intelligent lecture to put in, but it seems like this post is full of them and frankly, is about to burst!<br /><br />(Type silly and creative quote here) ____________________________________<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-01 15:52:27
subject: <b>riiiiiiiiiiiiight sure.....</b>
body:
ok i want to know why this theory was published?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you lend  someone 20 bucks and never see them again it was worth it.<br /><br />penguins will come into storyline i just kno it<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-25 01:38:57
subject: <b>OMG</b>
body:
First I just want to say that if anything should not be posted it would have to be unconstructive arguments between people who are not even discussing the theory anymore.<br /><br />At this point there are 38 responses to this theory.<br />14 of them were wasted on arguing. <br />Now that is what I consider crap.<br /><br />Now back to the theory.<br /><br />I myself do not agree with the theory.<br />But I do like how it is coming from a different angle.<br />It has made me start to think about some of the other theorys in different ways.<br /><br />Thank you Shadowight79.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 07:48:29
subject: <b>Oh wow.</b>
body:
I don't mean to flame, but Oh god.  That hurts.  Badly.  *cries into a bucket of ice-cream, at this abomination*


created: 2005-01-09 08:47:57
subject: <b>uhhh....</b>
body:
are we all reading the same books here???? <br />(looks confused and scratches head obliviously)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 12:55:02
subject: <b>I'm a large fan of rpgs myself,</b>
body:
but thats a little to far. plus, if he disguised himself, why would they call him dragon? and woulndt rand know, being the dragon REBORN? sorry if you explained this, i stopped reading 1/4 of the way through. i do that alot...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-19 11:39:25
subject: <b>l&#246;l</b>
body:
The first couple of padges I read WoT I thought this too. Cant belive someone whose read more than a chapter still belives it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-30 10:38:30
subject: <b>dumb</b>
body:
Go back to your RPG's.Because it is the only place you will find a drgon.They do not exist in randland...


created: 2009-01-30 10:46:11
subject: <b>Dah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Mythology is real and imagination is real dragons are not real.I think in alot of way some peaple on this site are really overthinking these thearies and some of you are just plain stupid.<br /><br />  This is on the other hand the best site for this type of discussion and I love WOT.F... Yeah


created: 2001-11-01 14:02:51
subject: <b>Balance comes...</b>
body:
for the light in the sheer numbers, first of, and the goodness, secondly, of people on the side of the Light.  I am aware that there are many factions that fight for the Light and are not yet together on the same page, but the DR will remedy that I believe.  I mentioned before, in another post, that DFs use subversive tactics to achieve goals that anyone who walks in the Light cannot use, therefore giving them the upperhand as far as infiltration, murder, and disrupting the path of the LFs. (sorry to use LF, but it's nice and easy)  I feel it's fairly apparent throughout the books that DFs numbers are small-not miniscule-but small in that DFs are all human (has there ever been an Ogier DF), and the average seems to be in the Light's favor.  When the Shadow adds in Trolloc hordes, Myrddral, Draghkar, gholams, Dreadlords, etc., etc., it seems then we begin to see the numbers the Light will surely need, and will have, to face the Shadow at TG.  Also the DR is the most powerful channeler in the past, present, and who knows about the future.  The Creator, to me, merely represents life, and good as a whole.  I don't think RJ will make the Creator a &quot;substanced&quot; character as he has the DO.  The Creator could not be imprisoned, because it, in my opinion, is merely the creation of the innate goodness of mankind/Ogierkind.  It is always The Dragon that defeats the DO in the Creator's name.  This must hold true given the nature of the Wheel.  The Creator has NEVER played a true hand (as far as being a real character and fighting the DO)  It is only speculation that it was The Creator sealed away the DO, because no one knows the beginning of the WoT.  It is merely a legend of a current age.  In fact, there are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time, as per RJ, but this is a beginning.  (That phrase could lend itself to the beginning of linear time theory)<br />The DR embodies what the Creator/Light stands for, and so do the rest of the LFs.  They are the Creator.  You must also look at the fact that the Light never tries to destroy the Shadow completely, only imprison it.  Contain it.  But the Shadow continually attempts to ultimately destroy the Light forever.  The Light has neither want nor will to annihilate the Shadow, for it is incapable of doing so, and it understands the balance is vital to life.  Hence the difference between good, and evil.  I'm interested to see what major player for the Shadow, will return to the Light, and vice versa.  I don't think RJ brought the idea of &quot;Noone can walk in the shadow so long that they may not return to the Light&quot; (a bit of a misquote) just for Ingtar's benefit.  We'll see... <br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 16:53:54
subject: <b>Raserei...</b>
body:
quite obvious: The Land of the Madmen is on the opposite end of the world. Shayol Ghul is far North, so a bore into the Creator&#180;s Prison must be far South, according to the theory.<br />Not that I believe the theory in general, but this point is logical...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 18:45:01
subject: <b>Oh yeah...</b>
body:
I keep seeing the guide picture, and imagine the world flat like a map. *smacks forehead*  Silly me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 19:16:52
subject: <b>Hw do you know???</b>
body:
How do you know that the world is round. maybe if you keep sailing past seanchan Whoops, you're falling into infinate space.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 21:30:43
subject: <b>Land of Madmen</b>
body:
I just thought the land of madmen, cause no one knows anything about it, and could never prove me wrong hehe...<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-04 13:49:47
subject: <b>Creator/DO same person, er, god, er, higher being</b>
body:
Just a suggestion, but what would be more balancing than the creator and the Dark One being the same entity.  I mean, maybe the Creator imprisoned himself so as to not allow himself any influence on the world.  Maybe the world is true neutral but the dark side of the Creator keeps trying to break through and has to be put in his place, yo.  Or something along those lines.  It sounds stupid, but its just an idea.


created: 2001-11-04 21:22:09
subject: <b>how bout this?</b>
body:
What if the Dark one has his own pattern? Perhaps the Creator is barred from that just as the DO is from the one we see. That's from someone elses theory I just can't recall who. It does seem to go with the central idea of balance though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 18:34:08
subject: <b>Sup??</b>
body:
Are you guy's passing around Crack? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-05 18:49:49
subject: <b>uhhhh...</b>
body:
Yes... Yes we are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-23 21:57:55
subject: <b>Aaaaaaand...</b>
body:
The way I see it, the main difference in the DO and the Creator is attitudinal. The Dark One wants power. He will lay his hand across the Pattern as much as he can, and he does. The Creator, on the other hand, has only one quote: I will not interfere. The Creator just wants to let things play out. He's a spectator. Thus, I think the Creator, after making the Wot (perhaps with the DO's help, even), wanted to sit back and watch, but didn't want the DO screwing it up, so he imprisoned him (don't worry about equal power. If I'm of equal power with you and I lock you in a room, you're still locked in a room) and sat back to watch. Unfortunately, the stupid people in his Pattern screwed with the Prison, so he had to tweak a few things to compensate. Other than giving humanity somebody to boot the DO out, he doesn't want to do anything.


created: 2001-11-01 14:03:54
subject: <b>besides which...</b>
body:
the band of the red hand isn't with egwene - they went off to help some murandian lord become king, i think. and then, in spring, they were to go after Mat.


created: 2001-11-01 14:08:25
subject: <b>Yeah...</b>
body:
...I think I overthought- maybe underthought- that a bit.<br />But I was under the impression there was no way in hell Egwene would bend knee to Rand.  Especially under the front of a united Tower.  Rand is apparently about to be taught some humility and emotion again from various Aes Sedai, including Cadsuane of course.  I merely mean that, in the smaller scheme of things, Egwene represents Manetheren.<br />Ah well... thanks for posting.<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 15:45:13
subject: <b>It's been...</b>
body:
a year and half since I read LoC.  I've only gotten through the series once.  I should probably read it again before I spout off again.  Sorry. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 16:49:51
subject: <b>Not the heart</b>
body:
Emond&#180;s Field has only been the battlefield where Aemon died, and certainly never the heart of the Nation he lead. This heart has always been the now ruined city of Manetheren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 09:47:38
subject: <b>UUmmmm...</b>
body:
Manetheren was a nation, not a city, I believe.  Whenever RJ mentions the city in which King Aemon and Queen Eldrene resided, he seems merely to call it , &quot;the last great city of Manetheren&quot; or something of that nature.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 12:25:56
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
I think (from memory) Manetheren, like Tear and many other places, has the same name for it's country as it's capital. And the capital was quite a way from Emond's Field, just think how long it took Perrin and company to get from the Waygate to the village.


created: 2001-11-03 06:41:18
subject: <b>One more little point...</b>
body:
...Manetheren was hardly forgotten. Two Rivers forgot its history, but the world didn't. People have tried to re-raide Manetheren several times. I think this has been thought from Morgase's POV (when she still was in Caemlyn) and later been used by Perrin as a smoke screen.<br /><br />The old Aes Sedai symbol is much more forgotten, 3000 years in foggy past and no resurrection attepts because of the channeling men going mad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 19:02:22
subject: <b>g</b>
body:
I don't think the 40 or so Aes Sedia who have bowed to Rand would count as the Unstained Tower. I think this emplies that more or less all the Aes Sedai will bow.<br /><br /><br /><br />Xanrn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-05 09:13:00
subject: <b>Manetheren likely?</b>
body:
Though I agree the forgotten sign is the old YinYang business, there is no reason why Manetheren might not rise again anyhow.  Although the bit we know about lies in the Two Rivers, the surrounding area is currently in turmoil with the Prophet/Whitecloaks/Shaido/Seanchan etc etc.  Even in peacetime the Two Rivers area contains the weaker nations (bar Andor to the NE).  I.e. Ghealden (S), Murandy (SE) and Amadicia/Altara (far S), with the so far unclaimed Almoth Plain to the W.  I'm not sure what lands the original Manetheren covered but there is surely scope for huge tracts of land (ahem) to be taken in the big shake up surrounding Tarmon Gaidon.  Granted this is not Perrin's aim, but after he's finished wandering round the general area kicking seven shades out of anyone who might have looked at Faile crosswise, and his good mate Rand has finished his argument with the DO, Perrin might find himself King of Manetheren by default (he seems to have finally slipped into the Lord of Two Rivers role at last).  He's got to do something useful at some point hasn't he?  <br />By the way, if I remeber correctly Manetheren (the city) was the capital of the country of the same name and sat somewhere in what are now the Mountains of Mist.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beidomon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The prime duty of the physician is to amuse the patient until nature can cure them.&quot;<br /><br />Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 05:02:37
subject: <b>Back to the old ways</b>
body:
I believe that the forgotten symbol is the old Aes Sedia symbol as well.  Though it will take some time for the men to be trusted, with The taint clean from the male half of the source that there will once again be male aes Sedai thus the tower kneeling to the old sign.


created: 2001-11-08 20:23:04
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
Maybe Darlin Sisnera (sorry if it's spelled wrong, my book's not hehre) will become king of Manetheren somehow.  Min didn't recognize the crown she saw on him.  Would anyone of the Third Age recognize Manetheren's?


created: 2002-02-05 00:27:08
subject: <b>A Prophecy can mean many things</b>
body:
People seem to be responding that the forgotten sign is either the Aes Sedai symbol or Manetheren's Red Eagle/etc. and I'd like to point out that when there's a prophecy it can come true in many different ways. That is why in my mind it is always a bit interesting in the books that when Rand was being positioned by Moiraine to realize his potential in the first book and then later has come to become the Dragon Reborn that later we find out at the same time there were other Aes Sedai grooming similarly powerful male channelers (such as Logain) to believe they were the Dragon Reborn. Now, in some of these other instances the Aes Sedai may have been or most likely were Darkfriends, but overall the point is that before a prophecy is fulfilled by the writing (or rewriting) of history there are many possibilities to fulfill it. That is why they are so controversial. In this case of the forgotten sign although many Aes Sedai bowed to Rand at the end of LoC history may well not reflect that and instead talk about Egwene assualting the White Tower and bringing the Aes Sedai to bow to Rand or Manetheren's sign through Mat  or some such circumstance. Also, as to Mat - although he is not officially under Egwene and simply following along with her I'm pretty confident although we'll have to see how it plays out, that in the end when they're fighting on the steps of the Tower it'll either look like he's under her orders or he really will be by then. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Amrylin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />                beset by trouble<br />        young for her burden<br />                             amazingly triumphant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />              possible betrayer of the dragon? <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 01:50:54
subject: <b>RE: The forgotten sign</b>
body:
Ah sorry this theory doesn't work.  Why?  Remember in the shadow rising a line from the Jendai Prophecy.  &quot;The white tower shall be broken by his name and aes sedai shall to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.&quot;  Sound familiar?


created: 2002-12-09 10:12:06
subject: <b>Mat will be king...</b>
body:
The main reson that I think that it is mat ho will be king and not Perrin is that all the rulers of Manetheren was Aes Sedai (the qween) and her Warder (the King)... Faile nor Brelein can wield the power, but Tuon cane, and yet Mat is related to Aemon, the last King of Manetheren... Plus Perrin dossent WANT to be king...


created: 2003-01-13 23:29:51
subject: <b>it will be...</b>
body:
I think the the forgotten sign could be the red eagle. After all Rand needs to name this giant new &quot;super nation&quot; hes creating. Why not the most powerful nation ever?


created: 2003-01-30 01:11:33
subject: <b>Good Idea</b>
body:
Good idea, but I don't think so. I have to say the forgoten sign is Rand's banner dragon or ancient AS. I believe the bending started at Dumai's Well and is still happening. It will be completed eventually but that is another subject all together.


created: 2003-03-05 22:28:01
subject: <b>The Red Eagle is not &quot;Forgotten&quot;</b>
body:
Judging by the reactions to various people in Ghealdan to Parrin's banner in PoD, everyone seems to remember very well what the Red Eagle signifies.  By contrast few except Aes Sedai  know what the origin of Rand's banner is.  We happen to get its description from people who know what it means &amp; the character describes it as &quot;the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.&quot;  Other people tend to call it the Banner of the Light, or Al'Thor's Banner, and don't seem to recognize it as an old symbol from the Age of Legends.  By contrast, Elayne states that the Red Eagle is a threat to her future rule because it still can stir people up, and Menetheren evokes feelings in people<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-22 14:35:20
subject: <b>Royal Manetheren</b>
body:
A whole load of people from Emmonds Feild have the al' before their names, does that not mean that they are of royal blood?


created: 2001-11-02 10:18:15
subject: <b>cool theory</b>
body:
I agree totally, well almost, my one thing is that I think that while the affects of the Taint will stay, it will not further corrupt anything.<br />I didn't agreethe bit about The Shadar Logoth evil and the DO's evil balancing - I mean the &quot;god&quot; of all that is evil being couter-balanced by humans - doesn't do a good job of showing the power of the DO (or the Creator if you think about balance)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Lord of Dreams <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Purveyer of Nightmares <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> The All Seeing One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;center&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />*o* Gandalf's Aprentice *o*&lt;/center&gt;<br /><br /><i>&quot;the gift is the blessing of the giver&quot;</i><br />                       Frank Herbert <b>'Dune'</b><br /><br />o<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It wasn't me. I swear! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 12:34:38
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
The reason I think Rand's wounds haven't healed is that the taint won't corrupt anything further than it already has, but that thing won't recede either. It could very well be the same with the evil at Shadar Logoth. I only think Jordan mentioned that Flinn is confused at the wounds not disappearing because he wanted to hint that men who are already partially mad from the taint won't get any worse, but also no better, that the ways won't become beautiful again and possibly even that the destruction of Shadar Logoth shouldn't affect Fain much.<br /><br />Incidentally, does anyone think we will see Machin Shin again in the future? After all, a couple of times now we've seen the black wind trying to escape from the ways and even though Moiraine has said it isn't possible, I'm not so sure. Perhaps it will be the way to reintrodue Loial, he could have accidently released Machin Shin.


created: 2001-11-07 05:14:22
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Very imaginative theory, and ups to you Three, I was going to say much the same but you beat me to it.  One thing I do want to add is that I think there is somthing between the Shadar and the ways.  If I remember correctly, Fain was almost attacked by machin shin in the ways, but for some reason it fled from him in fear because of what it sensed inside of Fain.  Maybe it was because it was it's counter balance I don't know, but there is definatly somthing up there.


created: 2002-07-01 03:27:17
subject: <b>Good thinking BUT</b>
body:
You failed to explain or even mention the fact that it seems that the black wind can be controlled by Fain.  This much is obvious in TGH.  Clearly if the wind can be controlled it has some purpose/intelligence behind it.  Or, it is receptive to Fain's temporary control.  That would mean that they were links between the two.  The more important question would be if the balance must be maintained, what is the counterweight for the elimination of the taint and the obliteration of Shadar Logoth? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-04-23 17:52:55
subject: <b>nice try pookie</b>
body:
what you say, at first glance, seems to make sense. but i must pose this question. how are two evils a balance, regardless of the fact that they war with each other? maybe it's a balance between the two evils, but in the larger picture, it's only half of the equation.it seems to me, the only thing that can balance out (all) evil, is good.  your theory is incomplete.


created: 2001-11-01 19:37:41
subject: <b>Hah! first post!</b>
body:
Umm. I thought this theory was pretty good, right up until you started talking about the OP belonging to the creator and the balefire thing at the end.<br />Think of the end of ACOS (?) where the watcher's and Rand's BF crosses? Therefore the DO's ppl can use BF and the removal of threads from the pattern is not dependant on the type of power used for the creation of BF.<br />There was an earlier theory (or post) that supposed that the DO wasn't able to reincarnate those BF'd because they've been removed from the pattern. That would suggest that there is nothing to 'tie' the thread to.<br />Overall I like the theory, but I'm not happy about assigning OP to the creator.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 20:15:51
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
I'm not saying I believe it, but it does make some sort of sense.  I mean, if I had the power to create things, and I was bored, this is probably pretty close to what I'd do!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With fear, serve with death.  Glee with fear, kiss thy child.  Perhaps He shall bestow thou into oblivion in vain.  Amen.&quot; - Knight of the Church Paladin Alexander Anderson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 09:03:35
subject: <b>Heh, cute</b>
body:
&quot;The other guy&quot;. My new favourite name for the DO.<br /><br />I liked this, I don't have a clue if we will ever see anything that proves this wrong or right, but for now it;s interesting.<br /><br />I know there are things in there I should question, but I'd just be basing my own ideas on speculation, so I won't.


created: 2001-11-02 12:04:02
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
I usually don't get involved in these discussions.  They are way too speculative.  There just is not enough evidence in the book to point any direction.  But for just once lets play what if.<br /><br />There is well known similarity between the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai and the ancient Ying/Yang symbol.  The main difference is that the Ying/Yang symbol, if my memory serves me correctly represents the stuggle between light and dark, order and chaos, (good and evil?) and has extra intrusions (little circles), one black circle with in the white half of the symbol and a white circle within the black portion.  The light and the dark are wrestling, with each having a portion of themselves within the realm of the other.  <br /><br />What if, similar to the theory I am responding to, this symbol represents the struggle between the 'Creator' and the 'DO'.  Each controlling there separate worlds and trying to influence the other.  The Ying/Yang (I think this symbol had a name. Can someone help me with it) is similar to the world after the bore was opened.  The world of WoT is the world of light, for instance, with the circular intrusion being the intrusion of the DO.  The Aes Sedai symbol (while also representing Saidar and Saidin) does not have the intrusions of the black into the white and vice versa.  That is because both worlds are separate from each other.<br /><br />What if the Creator and the DO got bored <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and decided to make a game.  Each of them created a world (or created it together) and each tried to destroy or conquer the other's world.  Each is a creator of some world and each is a dark one in another world.  <br /><br />That is the only way I can think of for the Creator and the DO to be exactly equal.  On the other hand, I am sure there are a number of other ways I can't think of.  And I am sure that the true version (RJs) is different.<br /><br />p.s.  Hmmm...  These speculative pieces are a lot more fun to write than to read.  If other people didn't have to read them, I would probably write more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-03 06:56:21
subject: <b>One step further...</b>
body:
If memory serves (and it doesn't always, but IF), I believe there is more to the yin/yang then the two being opposites.<br /><br />I'm not nearly the student of Tao that I'd like to be, but I do believe that yin/yang forces are not only opposites, but at the same time they are ONE.  This might be hard to follow but I think the Dark One and the Creator are actually one being. <br /><br />As a theory on Stone Dog's page mentioned, why is it that the Dark One has had so many minions working and listening directly to him, ie the Chosen--I mean Forsaken, heh--yet the Creator seems to have none?<br /><br />The reason, I think, is that the DO/Creator set everything up with the world being mostly &quot;good,&quot; but decides to influence some people to &quot;bad,&quot; in order to force a perpetual showdown of &quot;good&quot; versus &quot;evil&quot; to serve as entertainment.


created: 2001-11-05 06:48:21
subject: <b>&quot;Good&quot; vs &quot;Evil&quot;</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> I just thought I'd have a quick word.... how come just about EVERY time the DO and the Creator are spoken of 'good' and 'evil' come up???? It's not very often you hear one of the Forsaken turn around and say &quot;I'm evil - I know what I'm doing is wrong, but it's my job&quot;.<br />I'm sure the DO thinks the Creator is evil for not letting him play.... There is no good or evil about it, it's just different.... I like the idea of the DO and creator not only being equal but both being one being - like two sides of a coin, opposite but the same... that works for me.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-06 20:52:51
subject: <b>Uh Moridin perhaps...</b>
body:
... That is if he was the Wanderer at Shadar Logoth. Since he uses the true power exclusively and Rand didn't sense male channeling when the other stream of balefire was created, it seems to indicate the true power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 15:43:42
subject: <b>The Dark one certainly *is* Evil</b>
body:
To Katheryn (sp?):<br /><br />The Dark One *IS* evil.  He pushes his followers to kill each other, subjugate (no pun intended) the masses, murder, steal, and other unmentionable things...that is evil.  <br /><br />The Creator opposes what the Dark One does (through his agents...like Rand), *BUT* that doesn't necessarily make him good.  We have no evidence of what the Creator *DOES* support, though we do know what people think he supports.  <br /><br />Either way, things were pretty nice and dandy until the Dark One was exposed to the world (things weren't wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination...there was absolutely some evil and dissatisfaction, but not on the level of what the Dark One provided by his influence)...once his finger was able to poke through the hole in his 'prison', things went to pot.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 12:18:19
subject: <b>A bit redundant</b>
body:
I think this theory is just restating everything we already know.  It just seems a bit dull.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 01:05:04
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
I always thought that even our universe was created because somebody way more powerful than humans was extremely bored. It can easily be applied to WoT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What we see or seem is but a dream within a dream....</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 10:25:04
subject: <b>DO couldn't touch the WoT?</b>
body:
I'm not sure but i think i remember about a sentence from one of the characters in one of the books. It was something about the DO having a plan to make the WoT shatter, to destroy it. I'm not, sure, maybe i have just imagined that but, usually, i remember what i read so... maybe someone could tell me if i'm wrong?


created: 2004-03-31 10:49:18
subject: <b>Nice theory but a small problem</b>
body:
As I understand it the Creator is named the &quot;creator&quot; for a reason.  He's the one who creates. However the &quot;other guy&quot; is directly opposite from the Creator and therefore he can not create he can only destroy.  The DO wants to destroy the pattern not mearly &quot;mess&quot; with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Vast Expanses of Space<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-23 03:44:14
subject: <b>Balefire can be created with the true power</b>
body:
Remember in aCoS where the wanderer channeled balefire and ran did not feel anything. Taa, true power. Unless it's a female forsaken in disguise


created: 2004-12-01 17:05:18
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
well if it isnt anything else it is original so to speak. its actualy quite good tho <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 04:18:38
subject: <b>It makes so much sense it's scary.</b>
body:
About the True Power ... what if the Other Guy picks up little bits of the Creator's power and scrinches them together, and then gives it to his favourite threads to play with? I can understand that. So if saidin and saidar are working together, that's ok, the Creator likes to see his male/female threads cooperating. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-&gt;But... what if the DO breaks and mixes saidin and saidar together? He gets the True Power --&gt; It's called &quot;true&quot; 'cos it is the essense of saidin and saidar, mixed up together. <br />--&gt; This TP gets twisted as it passes through the DO's influence. It has to untwist eventually, and it does this when a thread uses it. This power mucks about with their brains --&gt; saa and whatnot.<br />----&gt; Plus it's super-addictive 'cos it's a mixture of both powers! WhooHooo I saved your theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-23 11:24:27
subject: <b>where did it begin?</b>
body:
I'm one of those guys that just can't figure out where did the creator and Do come from? since there can't be a reference to time (creator made it) did they just appear or what.  IN THE VERY BEGGINING there couldn't have been much or nothing, so how did we get somthing from nothing?<br />The super powers of the gods is an amazing thing isn't it.


created: 2001-11-02 01:47:35
subject: <b>I like this because...</b>
body:
This makes alot of sense because all the pieces are in place for it to be a plausible solution.  First off we know that the world of dreams contains the souls of those who are bound to the wheel. Rand's soul is one of those, and in the world of dreams he has access to all the past lives that have fought his ultimate battle. <br />Next we have the fact that Nynave and Elayne were their when Birgitte was physically removed from the dream. Couple this with Egwene's abilities with dreaming and I think that the three of them could surmise how to remove someone themselves.  <br />Now Rand in all likelyhood won't be strong enough to win the LB, and in order to stop from being turned to the dark side he will kill himself sacraficing himself for the good of the world. This fits with Ishmeal's whole fischer board metaphor and could explain the importance of the &quot;blood on the rocks&quot; because that is where Rand will be taken for turning. <br />After this Elayne will have the babies that signify a knew age and Rand will come back(as the third face) with a knew knowlege of LTT and all the other dragons making him strong enough to due what must be done.


created: 2001-11-02 02:52:17
subject: <b>Why not the same way as Mat?</b>
body:
He died and lived again because Rand balefired his killer.  I can think of lots of characters who would gladly do the same for Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Holder of the bond to Sansa.<br />Channeling war wizard.<br />Commander of jwalka.<br />Banisher of the Killer Chicken.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 08:48:15
subject: <b>Hey, if...</b>
body:
If Rand were to go to TAR and get ripped out with the knowledge of all the last battles, then he may have enough information to know what will really work this time.  Maybe then this would be the last Last Battle.<br /><br />Hmmmmmmm, very interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 08:53:43
subject: <b>Ooooh</b>
body:
Rand Rahl, I like your idea a lot.<br /><br />I don't like the other idea. Whether Birgitte is still attached to the Horn now she has been torn out of TAR is unknown, but she fears she won't be and Moghedien surely thought she wouldn't be, otherwise why tear her out? All that would achieve would be unleashing a hero on the world when the DO could do w/o them. Anyway, my point is whether she actually will die and continue as a hero of the horn is unknown and they just cannot do that to the Dragon/Dragon Reborn. Tearing the Dragon out of TAR could doom the world in the furture, it's just too risky. The only way I could see them doing this would be if the DO wasn't defeated yet when Rand died. Then they'd have to do something. However, it wouldn't be the Dragon Reborn who fights the DO, it would be all the Dragons, which kind of messes up the prophecies.


created: 2001-11-02 15:40:31
subject: <b>Something to remember......</b>
body:
If Rand gets ripped out, where will the next Dragon come from? If one gets ripped out, they are out. Period.<br />Actually, that is an interesting thought. <br />If Rand is ripped out of TAR after dying, would he be able to prove himself brave enough to be re-awarded Hero of the Horn status? After all, our heroes all had to have joined up after one life of extraordinary braveness, so technically it could happen. Good one!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 17:02:26
subject: <b>Hey AOBtD , great idea.</b>
body:
This huge battle is waged, when suddenly, Rand is knocked out, dead.  Everyone screams...&quot;NO!&quot; and the Dark One laughs his ass off.<br /><br />Logain leads the Asha'man full force into the battle, thus in an essence, fulfilling Min's viewing of Logain's glory and him taking over  by stepping over his dead body (but Logain laughs.  I don't think he'd laugh at that, unless he is a bit crazy by saidin)<br /><br />Then some quick thinking by Egwene, Elayne or Nyn or Moi even (you know she's gonna be there) jump into T'A'R and Rip him out, or, somehow put his spirit in T'A'R back into his body...<br /><br />Then he stands up, his wound he suffered gone, and he's pissed as hell.  <br /><br />If he were to be physically ripped out, he'd know all his previous experiences as Dragon.  He'd then get up, and this is where the music from the Matrix when they go into that building and the rock music from RaTM plays, and walks up to the Dark One, with a  flick of his finger sets trollocs and Myddraal in white flames, and sends hordes of Darkfriends and Dreadlords back with a wave of his hand.  Saidin raging, he severs Lanfear and other extraneous Forsaken and pulls Shaidar Haran apart with the one power.  He then dukes it out with Moridin, Rand's eyes filled with white light.  After beating moridin, he forces a circle with the strongest channelers around him,  Nyn and co.  And closes the bore utterly, with a clean saidin and saidar.  The Dark one's corporeal spirit is severed as the bore closes around him. <br /><br />I can see it now!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 19:32:13
subject: <b>Ripped out</b>
body:
Birgitte was ripped out but didn't Min see an aura of adventures, more then any woman could have in a lifetime? Since Min sees the future not the past they have to be future adventurs in new lives. So Rand would still be bound to the wheel.


created: 2001-11-04 22:29:54
subject: <b>The Bond</b>
body:
If he were ripped out of TAR and suffered what Birgette did, then his bond with his girls may be what keeps him alive.  Then he uses the Choeden Kal that could 'challenge the Creator' to compel the Creator to aid him in sealing the Bore.


created: 2001-11-06 21:04:18
subject: <b>Hey Tay</b>
body:
First off, we don't know for sure that Min only sees the future. Secondly the if she is indeed seeing future live of Birgitte Silverbow that that could be because she will eventually do something in this one to be re-bound to the horn. There's no guarantee that she'll still be bound when she dies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 05:27:52
subject: <b>Buuuut...........</b>
body:
If Rand died and then was pulled from TAR, he wouldn't be Rand anymore.  When one who is bound to the wheel dies they returne to the world of dreams as the person they were when they were FIRST bound.  Birgette was Birgette when she was first bound, but she had many lives after that, but when she dies, she becomes Birgette again in the world of dreams.  When she was ripped out, she was in her original form.  So if Rand died, he would go to the world of Dreams as he was when he was first bound to the wheel, waaaaaaayyy back in whatever age he was bound, probably the first. And if he was ripped out that is who he would be, Not LLT and Not Rand.  He would have Rands memories sure, for a while at least.  If im not mistaken, Birgette's memories have begun to fade.  Rand's memories would be the last to go, but it doesn't matter because He still is not Rand.


created: 2001-11-08 12:28:56
subject: <b>Min's viewings</b>
body:
Min says when she sees something around a person it means something is going to happen to them, she mentions that what she sees always happens. She has NEVER said anything about seeing an aura of something that happend in the past so she probably doesn't. Honestly what's the point of seeing the past in a viewing? Anyway even if Rand was unbound by being ripped out defeating the dark one is easily heroic enough to get him rebound.


created: 2002-01-05 20:34:10
subject: <b>mmmmm</b>
body:
i think that Elayne would be a candidate for his Ripping out, Lews Therin Telamon IS the greatest hero in the WoT. Remember Arthur Hawkwing talking to Rand? About him not remembering... Anyway Elayne would do this because he's her Warder (as Birgitte) and because she most likely know/or will figure out how.


created: 2002-05-28 12:18:05
subject: <b>Min seeing the past.</b>
body:
This isn't exactly true as she saw an image of a child with a sword for Lan and she saw a man juggling fire for Thom which was his nephew Owyn and those events had already occured.


created: 2002-09-12 02:04:00
subject: <b>comments on comments</b>
body:
First of all, xenocide, Lanfear claimed that together they could challenge the Creator with the TWO Choedan Kal. In Winter's Heart, the only known key that exists for the female one melted. <br />   Second, SwedensTeddy, if Rand died, he obviously wouldn't be Elayne's Warder anymore, and she, Min, and Avhienda(or maybe not Min, since nobody who can't channel has ever bonded anybody before) would be unconscious or at least too emotionally unstable to think. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 00:26:36
subject: <b>Reflections on the board...</b>
body:
If Rand is ripped out of TAR one might expect he would then suffer a similar fate to Birgitte Silverbow. What exactly is that though?<br /><br />When Birgitte first regained consciousness in the world her memories were vast, however as time progressed those memories of other lives have dimmed a great deal with the indication that she will in time forget most if not all except her current life. That said, were Rand to be ripped out 'to live again' he would have all the knowledge of his previous lives (and how he has defeated the DO before in this age).<br /><br />However! The shock of being brought out so caused Birgitte to lay unconscious for some time, and only after being bonded (note: at death Rands bonds should be broken) and well rested was she able to regain consciousness. Unless ofcourse, it was Moggy who knocked BS out and bringing Rand out of TAR may differ here, I'd have to go over the text.<br /><br />Moggy suggesting Birgitte shall no longer be tied to the horn, well.. Moggy is one of the bad guys yes? Follower of the Father of Lies? There is certainly no love lost between Moggy and nyn/bs, why on earth would Moggy want to make them both feel good about what they had done? - HELLO!?<br /><br />Min viewed more images than could possibly exist in one lifetime. Hinting that she will still be tied to the wheel beyond this life time, whether she re-earns this priveledge (curse? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />...) or if upon her death she will return there automatically on her death is an excellent point.<br /><br />The viewings that Min has are believed to be related to the foretelling in some way, in as much as she sees snippets of the pattern. She just knows that some things are so and they will be, other times she has no gut feeling about them yet in hindsight she can see how. This time she had a gut feeling, more than could possibly be in one lifetime. These viewings are not litteral, rather symbolic and it is this interpretation that is important (as with dreamers visions, also linked with foretelling).<br /><br />Thom has the list of the AS who brought down his nephew unjustly and that is yet to be dealt with.. &quot;YET&quot; ie; it has not come to pass - it will be in the future.<br /><br />damn I'm long winded! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jheran...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Insert witty remark here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-13 15:16:03
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
i dont think so...... lr lg lr<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-26 00:54:26
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
LoC, pg 353 (paperback)-- Nicola makes the following Fortelling:<br /><br />&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond.  Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.&quot;<br /><br />I think this supports your theory.  Rand dies and lives on in T'A'R.  It could happen, it makes sense.  This way, Elayne Aviendha and Min will be able to go see him maybe.  But heres the thing:  why would he look like Lews Therin in T'A'R?  If Birgitte always looks different in the real world than in T'A'R, shouldn't the Dragon look different than both Lews Therin and Rand?


created: 2001-11-04 10:14:36
subject: <b>on the contary</b>
body:
the dark one does grant immortality asmodean states that he is now aging like rand, after rand cut his black cords.<br />also how else did ishameal live for 3 thousand years when he was not trapped fully<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">f@@k it im ganging tae the boozer<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 11:40:11
subject: <b>Ah</b>
body:
But he only grants immortality to a few. If you read comments and thoughts from other DFs in the series, you'll see that they think they're going to be granted immortality, but if they're not important, why should the DO do that for them? I don't know if Taim is important enough for immortality, but considering there MUST have been a lot more than 13 channelers on the DO side during the AoL, it makes you wonder where they all are now.


created: 2001-11-04 12:25:04
subject: <b>More Dark Channelers</b>
body:
Um, they're dead?<br /><br />Balefire was used frequently, if you recall. The whole of the White Tower and LTT's 100 companions very likely accounted for -many- of them. And, after all, the forces of Light won....so there wouldn't be many of the bad guys left. Maybe the 13 Forsaken are both the strongest survivors AND the ones the DO felt were worth keeping. <br /><br />The DO doesn't suffer failure too well, and not only losing, but dying during losing wasn't likely to fill him with gratitude. And he certainly keeps the 13 we know on a short leash.<br /><br />About Logain:  Keep in mind; we have no idea how powerful is.  We can imagine he was pretty powerful before he was captured and stilled, but we don't know about now. All we see is him using some form of compulsion on Aes Sedai, but it's not too hard to assume that he's still significantly more powerful than a standard Aes Sedai.<br /><br />However, we DO know that Taim is -very- powerful; about as much as Rand -- before Rand's sickness and recent problems. It's very possible that Taim is more powerful than Rand now, but power isn't everything; and Rand has several toys that will help and a lot of knowledge. Plus, he simply knows how to fight in a number of different ways.<br /><br />Rand's pretty clueless about a lot of things, but he DOES know about fighting (at least in singular combat).


created: 2001-11-04 12:45:42
subject: <b>Actually Vashti</b>
body:
Actually, we have seen at least a vague idea of how strong that Logain is.  Remember when Nynaeve first healed him, he could have broken her shield quite easily, but he didn't because he is honourable. Then, when he did try to escape, it took 6 sisters to hold the shield on him. They said that if they used one less sister than that, he would have broken it. Now, when Rand was captured, if you'll remember it also took six sisters to hold Rand.  And if you are wondering how strong the sisters holding Rand were in comparison to those holding Loagain, well, remember that they cycled through all of the sisters, meaning that, due to the variance in power between Aes Sedai, that the combined shield strength was probably about as strong as the one on Logain.  So what does all the above information point to? Logain is most definately strong, at least as strong as Taim, but not stronger than Rand, simply because Rand is the Dragon.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Jumping out of airplanes doesn't kill people... The ground does!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-04 13:37:30
subject: <b>In response to my own theory...</b>
body:
As another blackboarder said, the Dark One does grant Immortality, but only to a few.  My theory about Taim gaining this is pure speculation.  Too many theories say the same thing, so I figured I'd stretch it a bit.  <br /><br />As far as Tamyrlin goes, Lews Therin Kinslayer was it in AoL, according to Ishy in the prologue of The Eye of the World, and it looks remarkably similiar to Amyrlin, so what would that mean?  Again, it being Logain is pure speculation, but it speculation based on Min's veiwing.  <br /><br />Why post a theory if it says the same thing?  <br /><br />


created: 2001-11-04 16:12:26
subject: <b>Cheesecloth? I think not.</b>
body:
Some points of disagreement in regards to Bad Ash's disagreements:<br /><br />1) To dispute a theory as not holding water because it is not based on another theory, namely, in this case, that Logain's crown in Min's vision refers to his glory as M'Hael, is faulty logic.  Especially when the theory you are disagreeing with DOES describe Logain as eventually being the new leader of the Black Tower.<br /><br />2) Why wouldn't the Dark One create more Forsaken. He has killed some; why not create them.  Also, ages are supposed to repeat in many ways, not exactly the same but close, so wouldn't the creation of Forsaken for THIS age be more appropriate than relying on the Forsaken of a previous Age?<br />And as to squabbling and infighting, each and every book makes it CLEAR that the Dark One encourages this behavior.<br /><br />3) Immortality has been promised and granted by the Dark One.  What is the rebirth of the Forsaken in new bodies BUT immortality?<br /><br />4) A Tamyrlin is rather clear.  In the references that are made to the Hall of Servants of the Last Age we see that the organization is divided by the sexes, females led by the Amyrlin and males led by the...well, let's think about it.  And, more importantly, in the theory posted and being reamed, the title Tamyrlin is being used in the capacity, though perhaps not true to the original meaning, of a leader of the Black Tower that is bound to the White Tower under Rand.  If the definition and obligations of an Amyrlin can change...<br /><br />5) New people in seven ages?  Why?  Well, for one, we have the Forsaken of the previous age in action in the current one, as well as new people.  And to claim that the immortality can be granted only if the Dark One wins, well that assumes a complete and utter victory.  The Dark One will NOT be killed, lets think about the balance that has been a core of these books from the beginning, rather he will be at best defeated.  That doesn't mean the war is over.  There will be a new age and a new battle and it can be done with new people as well as those that have survived previous ages.<br /><br />6) Sorry, but your refutation of the theory sounded like that of a person with the ability to post the last word and is constructed with haste and lack of insight into the poster's point.


created: 2001-11-04 16:16:54
subject: <b>an extra bit...</b>
body:
This is yet another response to Bad Ash's answer on my theory...his answer needs more than one blackboard to answer it.  First, lets consider this:<br /><br />Prologue, Eye of the World:<br /><br />Ishy says that he's fought Lews Therin a thousand times before and a thousand times again. <br /><br />Prologue:  The Great Hunt<br /><br />Ishy says to everyone at the little meeting of darkfriends that it doesn't matter if they get the dragon now or later, he will be gotten.  Bors wonders what it all means, and is pissed because he doesn't want to wait and be dead when the return happens.<br /><br />Why do I bring this up?  Because it leads you to believe this all happens over and over.  That the dark one starts to touch the world, there's a war, somebody seals him back in, and he's there for a while.  The wheel turns around for a while, comes back and history repeats itself.  The Last Battle isn't really the last until the dark one whens.<br /><br />My point on Taim about being immortal, the DO gives immortality to the Forsaken.  Taim may or may not end up proving to be worthy to the DO, but I believe that there will be new dreadlords, and some will, like the Chosen in AoL, be granted immortality and end up sealed with the DO for a while.  I'm not even going to comment on Taimandred.<br /><br />As for why would the DO create new Forsaken?  Your point was that it's chaos, why would he do it again?  <br /><br />The reason is that he does it on purpose.  Several Forsaken's PoV have shown that he pits them against each other to prove who's strongest.  So, after many of these fail him this time, He gets him 13 or so more, seals them up, and waits for the next time he touches the world.<br /><br />Yes, my theory holds water like a well on a mountain.  You might want to think a bit before you answer too briefly.  Of course, you think Taim is Demandred, so why should I expect more?  No disrespect, meant, though.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


created: 2001-11-04 16:45:46
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I think it very unlikely that balefire was used to kill off the other dark channelers in the AoL. We don't have an actual date, but we know that it was some time before the DO was sealed away that the effects of balefire were discovered and both sides stopped using it. Now we know that the DO's forces were on the verge of breaking through the Light's ranks and from there going onto an almost assured victory when LTT lead the strike on Shayol Ghul. Therefore, as the shadow was so strong, it's reasonable to assume that a lot of dark channelers still lived after the strike. As they were alive after the strike, they were of course alive after the discovery of what balefire could do.<br /><br />Now as balefire wasn't even being used during the war (not even when the shadow looked to be winning), it's very unlikely they would use it afterwards on those known dark channelers still alive. They may well have killed them in some way, but not used balefire. So why aren't these people alive, when surely the DO promised them immortality? He lied, they weren't important enough.<br /><br />I personally think Logain is extremely close in strength to Taim, but perhaps not quite as strong. He would certainly have been by far and away the strongest channeler at the Black Tower besides Taim and Dashiva. I do hope we will see some sort of further demonstration of Logain's strength in the power, but we may not if he uses callandor against the M'Hael (or he might not even face him).


created: 2001-11-04 18:48:11
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
Verin in the Great Hunt said that if Logain tried using the Choedan Kal he would need all his strength just to keep from destroying himself.<br /><br />Also, the Women in AoL refused to follow LTT to Shayol Ghul thats why all 100 companions were male and problary why the seal was so crap.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-05 09:41:01
subject: <b>Choedan Kal</b>
body:
At least Verin is willing to consider Logain being strong enough to use the thing.  Several seriously hard channelers were filling their collective pants at the thought of the untested jobbies being used at all, even by Rand.<br />By the way, as I remember the women of the AoL were sitting on their bums squabbling over what to do next, and poo-pooed the seals (which worked for 3000y), presumably because they didn't like the colour <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beidomon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The prime duty of the physician is to amuse the patient until nature can cure them.&quot;<br /><br />Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 09:52:13
subject: <b>Verin</b>
body:
is probably wrong about Logain needing all his strength. I'm assuming that the male and female Choedan Kal are the same strength (can you really imagine the women of that time or this allowing otherwise? Besides, it makes sense what with balance and all that), so if Nynaeve is powerful enough to channel one, Logain certainly is.


created: 2001-11-05 11:05:21
subject: <b>Choden Kal</b>
body:
Ny needed all of her strength to keep it to gether, and barely did. Rand might of even burned her out, due to the amount of sidar she used. Needless to say, Logain would be in the same pool as Ny.


created: 2001-11-05 13:43:06
subject: <b>ummm...</b>
body:
I really doubt that Nynaeve was burned out. I believe that it is impossible. Remember when they used the bowl of the winds and Elayne is explaining to the windfinders how to link and she tells them that its impossible to force the person you are linked with to draw more than they can handle.  Another thing I doubt is that the female part of the Choedan Kal requires the same amount of strength as the mase part.  Think about it, since men are generally much stronger than women, then (I'm making an estimate) if say, 25% of men were strong enough to use them, and the women had to be just as strong, then like 1% of the female channelers would have been able to use their version. That sould be ludicrous. So obviously, the female one probably takes less power to activate than the male's. However, I would assume that the total output power is the same for both, that is, if a woman as strong as Rand (that'll be the day!) were to use it, they would be equal.<br /><br />And as I stated in my above post, Logain approaches Rand's strength since it took the same number of women to hold his shield as it did for Rand.  Verin obviously doesn't know what she is talking about. Remember that women and men can't gauge eachother's ability with the power by sensing it as they do with members of the same sex. They have to gauge ability by other means like the distance you can weave, the number of things you can do at once, the number of people it takes to shield you, the size of your balls (of fire that is... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) etc, etc... They have to look for visual cues. When Logain was terrorizing the countryside, all his tricks were self-taught, he wouldn't have looked very powerful. He certainly wasn't making weaves that seek-and-destroy every trolloc in the Stone. It is also very possible that he was not at his full strength then (and may not be now, unless the healing of severing maximizes your ablility (unlikely)).<br />Also, have you considered the possibility that verin did not even know of the access keys? She certainly never mentioned them (unless I am mistaken). She may have thought that you used the Choedan Kal just like any other sa'angreal. I suppose you would have to be a serious beast to be able to use them unaided!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Jumping out of airplanes doesn't kill people... Hitting the ground does! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-05 16:57:06
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
I can&#180;t believe that Logain will be the M&#180;Hael after Taim deserts. Why? Simple: Rand was not very pleased when Taim created this title. So Logain will quite certainly lead the &quot;good&quot; Asha&#180;man, but I can imagine that he finds out that Rand does not like the title and put it to hell. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Another comment on Tamyrlin: According to The World, Tamyrlin was the title of the Leader of ALL AS in the AoL, not only of the male. The title Amyrlin was not invented before the WT was founded after the Breaking. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 14:34:20
subject: <b>Logain will be Rands right hand man</b>
body:
On the side of light the two most powerful channelers are Rand at #1 and Logain at #2.  Both of these guys could break through a sheild held only by 5 aes Sedai.  Taim is either a DF or a forsaken remember Dashiva was one of the Forsaken so it is possible that Taim is too.  However you can't use Rand's rants about killing Taim as proof he is a Forsaken because Dashiva was a forsaken and rand did not rant around him.  I do believe since RJ has stated that the WoT is circular that the forsaken in this age are not the same forsaken from the age preceding LTTs sealing the bore.  It is fairly obvious that Rand is going to re-seal the hole like it was before LTT's time and therefore set up the following ages.  Taim will not be a forsaken but he will die.  At the end of the series every DF and every forsaken will be dead along with every creation of the DO or else the ages will no longer come and go in the same order and the wheel will be broken.


created: 2002-05-06 19:46:13
subject: <b>just a comment</b>
body:
In response to the response to this theory, I disagree that Taim might be Demandred or any other Forsaken in disguise.  We already know that Dashiva was Osan'gar (Winter's Heart), and judging by the squabbling that the Forsaken do, I very much doubt that one would allow another to rank higher than him or her, even in disguise.  Yet they do not seem to mind being outranked by mortal Darkfriends, as long as the Darkfriends know their places.  For example, Mesaana is an Aes Sedai in the White Tower, and she is outwardly outranked by the Keeper (whose name escapes me), a Darkfriend.  I don't see why the same would not be true for the Black Tower.  Besides, no Forsaken would be so obvious as to personally send Darkfriend Ash'aman to kill Rand; they might give the order for someone else to give it, so it can't be traced back to them.  So anyway, I doubt that Taim is anything more than a Darkfriend, and probably not a powerful one at that.<br />On a totally random sidenote, I think Bella, Rand's horse   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />, kicks ass.


created: 2003-02-06 04:05:15
subject: <b>A good theory</b>
body:
The Dark one would need new foraken because most of them has been balfierd away, so I think Taim will be granted imortality.


created: 2001-11-05 18:27:05
subject: <b>Losing a hand</b>
body:
Just a thought, but what if Rand's losing a hand is more metephorical?  IE  Shaidar Haran is the hand of the dark one.  What if Rands hand (Taim) is the one that is severed (Killed)?


created: 2001-11-05 18:50:43
subject: <b>ya</b>
body:
The hand could be figurative<br /><br />I'm wondering... We have various characters that have visions/fortellings,dreams and what not. So, what category do each of these fall in. I don't have all of them in front of me, but I believe it goes like this:<br /><br />Egwene - her dreams all seem to be figurative. Like the dead Rand paper masche, Gawyn at a crossroads, Gawyn coming to her over a glass littered floor, Matt in the sky with fireworks in his hand.<br /><br />Perrin - If I remeber right, Perrin's visions in TAR were   literal, he sees actual events, future and present. Rand walking as a beggar, Matt naked and bound with his Ashandarie, Nynaeve and Elayne running around Tanchicho... These all are literal visions or seem to strongly suggest it.<br /><br />Min - Her viewings are a mix of the literal and the figurative.  She sees people's bloody faces and tinkers with swords but she also sees figurative things, the hawk and falcon, the broken tower...<br /><br />Elaida and Nicola - Nicola's was definately figurative, but who knows, some of it, like being in a boat, could be literal. With Elaida, her's I think are a mixture, but I think that she takes them too literally or only looks at them from one side.<br /><br />So it seem that we should pay close attention to Perrin's visions in the sky if we want to figure out prophecy.<br />


created: 2001-11-05 19:33:17
subject: <b>Exit to obscurity seems fair to me</b>
body:
As Jordan sources his concepts from many legends we are naturally drawn to a Christ-like exit - legendary heroes just do not pack up their toys and go home once they have saved the world.<br /><br />There is another way - the exit into obscurity accomplished by illusion - that is favoured by several authors for their heroes. My problem is that I cannot think of any examples at the moment.<br /><br />Tolkien's and Eddings' heroes just go home and live happily ever after, which will be difficult for Rand as three wives equates to a vision of the inferno for most.<br /><br />Passing the baton to Logain and disappearing in a whiff of simulated balefire seems fair to me. Probably end up as a bearded Tinker with Min.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/7289.gif" /> <font color="3399FF"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Druid</font></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/7289.gif" /><br /><font face="Comic Sans MS">The Old Man of Oz</font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><font face="Comic Sans MS"> Object of Desire (retired) </font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><font face="Comic Sans MS"><b> The People's Front For Wongy Jnr. </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I blame Alric&quot;</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.iscv.org.au/images/iscv1.jpg" target="_blank">That's my little puppy!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 19:46:55
subject: <b>Nice Theory...</b>
body:
Wow!  Nice theory.  I have thought it might go something like this myself, a time or two, but never really put it all together.  I don't think Rand dies at TG, and I sure as heck don't see him hanging around fo clean up.  I feel pretty much the same as you 'bout Logain, and everything else.  I like what somebody said about the figurative hand, that's a pretty cool idea.  Anyways, good job with the theory!!


created: 2001-11-05 23:51:21
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
I have always wondered what Rand will actually do, if he lives past TG. This seems the way to go - after, all, the Dragon Reborn is there to save the world. Once he's saved the world, well....whaddya do when you've done it all? It also means he is still there, for Elayne and Aviendha and Min, but there is no real place for him potherwise. I mean, I suppose he could just rule Illian - he is the King - but this makes much more sense. Good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />PS I have always wondered how the world in general (or even just those around him) are going to react to the fact that he has three girlfriends. OK, so Nynaeve dealt with it pretty well (and this is Nynaeve here!) but it has to come out sometime. (Especially with Elayne's pregnancy.) I can just see Cadsuane's face - or Egwene's, for that matter. Heck, ANYONE's.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 00:01:55
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
One of the best theorys Ive seen. Someone else said that Toklien's heroes just sort of go home and live happily ever after.. and although that is partially true, I would like to point out that from what I remember Frodo and a few others actually &quot;sailed off into the sunset&quot; at the end of LotR. That isnt faking ones death or anything (which, come to think of it, Bilbo kind of did), but it is close enough.<br /><br />Anyway, this is a very good theory. I too like the character of Logain, and I think he could be a good leader for afterwards. Also, it would fit into the aura Min saw of glory surrounding Logain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~CrazyCaleb~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Lord of All<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />-Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 08:15:04
subject: <b>The hand</b>
body:
I've mentioned this before, too, but there's a thing in Blight that bites you and the bite starts to digest the victim. Only way to survive is amputate the bitten part.<br /><br />And Rand going to Blight in some stage sounds more than likely...<br /><br />Think of it, him in danger of dying, only way to save being the cut the hand thing, with Nynaeve being away... And then she returns and O how she grinds her teeth at yet another thing she can't Heal: She can't grow him back a new arm...<br /><br />Anyways, that's my half Euro's worth. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 11:40:15
subject: <b>Ah</b>
body:
But who's to say the 3 girlfriends will survive TG?<br /><br />I think most people can agree that Rand will fake his death at some point...but when is the question. For a while I have thought it would be before TG (for what reason, I don't know, other than to trick the enemy into complacency as they think they have definitely won). However, this theory's got me thinking now, perhaps it will be after TG. It's the only way I could see him escaping all the attention he gets. However, could he really do it? Could he leave his newly born children to only see them when he visits the whoever the mother is? Then there is that prophecy from Nicola (I think). I don't have a specific quote, but it says something like &quot;the great battle done, but the world not done with battle&quot;. That's very loose, but the point being that even though the DO has been defeated, battles will still go on. Whether the battles will be with the Seanchan or others I don't know, but whatever it is, will Rand really be able to turn his back on it when he knows he can make a difference?<br /><br />I really do like the idea that Rand will walk off into the sunset (but less corny, more emotional). Where will he go though? Will he be able to return to Emond's Field? Now that the Two Rivers isn't cut off from the world, I think it VERY unlikely that they haven't heard that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. After all, news of the DR is what people will be after. Rand will know this, he can't just return and pretend he is a lord in the same way as Perrin. Perhaps he won't want to return as he knows they'll treat him as a lord when all he wants is a more normal life (as Tam did when he returned).<br /><br />So if Rand does walk off, he may thin he can finally rest, but he won't. I don't think he can. Everytime he sees something wrong in the world, he's going to want to try and fix it.<br /><br />I really hope this idea of Rand faking his death and only letting his 3 wives knowing about it so he can visit them and their children happens (Alanna's either going to have to die before then, as I suspect, or give up the bond). Jordan could make it really emotional. He could have Rand thinking about how if he stays, he'll have to watch Perrin and Mat die, seeing as they have at best another 80 years while he could possiblylive to over 600. He might take Min with him, after all, she's going to die around that time too.<br /><br />Then again he might leave them all. How he's going to get around the bond I don't know, but how could he live through Min's death, Mat and Perrin's, his children (those who can'yt channel). t's too hard to guess, I just hope Jordan pulls through.


created: 2001-11-06 22:32:14
subject: <b>Just a thought on the hand....</b>
body:
First off great theory! Secondly I don't think any prophecie has spefically stated that it will be Rands hand. Looking at the listing of mins prophecies reveals something interesting. Mins viewing of Rand mentioned 'a bloody hand and a white hot iron'. Her viewing of Elayne mentioned 'a severed hand (not hers)'. <br /><br />   First off it isn't even clear if the two prophecies are related or not. So the severed hand may be something that has nothing to do with Rand at all. All that's been seen connected to Rand is a bloody hand. That doesn't necessarily mean severed. It could mean that he would eventually have a lot of blood on his hands. Then again that bloody hand might not even belong to Rand.<br /><br />   One example of these two vieings could be that Elaynes brother Gawyn will lose a hand, and that Rand may get attacked by someone with a bloody hand. I could go on and on of course. My point is that RJ may have intentionally put those predictions in the words he did to misdirect our attention.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 22:59:30
subject: <b>Added Comments</b>
body:
Reviewing the response, and doing some more thinking of my own, I'm adding a possible addendum to Rand's severed 'hand'. <br /><br />As someone said, the Hand COULD be metaphorical...and who/what is his hand? Taim and the Black Tower.  If they are 'severed' from Rand then suddenly it becomes Elayne's problem, since the Black Tower is in Andor, after all. <br /><br />the 'white hot iron' someone mentioned just might be balefire. <br /><br />Interesting possibilities from the responses and my re-readings.  Thanks for the feedback!


created: 2001-11-07 08:26:40
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I for one hope Rand dies, I hope he does a LTT right ontop of SG and blows it and the Dark One to pieces.<br />But that problary won't happen, cause the bore will be resealed completely, and the wheel will start again.<br />Now i personnel think the Time in Rand Planet, is buggered.<br />Time should not be stuck in a loop it should flow on and on like a River. I think the DO is the one who is making it bend and until someone comes aslong and destroys him to fix, history will just repeat itself over and over and over again.<br /><br />Now Rand and his 3 Women is going to bee very wierd.<br />1 Elayne Wants to be Queen of Andor and Maybe Car(however u spell)<br />2. Avi will problary want to be a Aiel and go where the rest of the Aiel go.<br />3. Min just follows him round like a love sick puppy.<br /><br />Now I don't think anyone is going to stand for him having 3 Wives. Elaynes mother and Lini will problary stop her, the Wise Ones will stop Avi. That leaves Min, who has noone to stop her. Now when of Min marries Rand, the Wise 0nes may let Avi become Rands 2nd wife which she may or may not do.<br />Now Nicolas viewing &quot;The Lion Sword, the Deicated Spear and She who sees beyond in a boat with He who is dead yet isn't(somthing like that anyway) seem pretty straight forward to some people. I agree SwsB most be Min, DS is more likely Avi<br />but how can anyone claim Elayne is the Lion Sword? How does a Sword relate to Elayne in anyway? It doesn't, she doesn't use one, its not her sigil, she has no birthmarks in the shape of a sword nothing links Elayne and the Sword. Now it maybe something yet to happen, but come on your streching a bit. If it was whoever was the First Prince of the SWORD of Andor. Haha Maybe its Luc or Gawyn.<br /><br />Avi and Min married to Rand, Min as the Roofmistress and 1 as the Wise One. This is how Aiel marry. they would not allow 3, in Aiel double marriages one is always the Roofmistress and One is always a Wise one.<br /><br />Well thats me out of Ideas<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-07 16:51:57
subject: <b>Uh, Xanrn</b>
body:
I just wanted to clear up your last comment about Aiel marriages.  Otherwise, these falicies have a way of turning up elsewhere because someone else read them as a statement of undisputable fact. Just because the ploygomous Aiel marriages that we have seen have had the wives as Roof Mistress and Wise Woman does not mean that that is the case. That would make the occurance of polygomous relationships rare and the Aiel people wouldn't take it for status quo as much as they do.<br />A few examples of Aiel that want to be invloved in polygomous relationships are Aviendha and Gaul.<br />Now, Aviendha repeatedly asks Egwene how wetlanders (Elayne) would feel about having a sister-wife. She would not consider the idea at all if the other woman had to be an Aiel roof-mistress.<br />Then there is Gaul who wants to marry Chiad. She wants him, but for one, will not give up the spear, and two, will not have him unless Bain does too. Gaul, still wanting to marry, says he does not want Bain. This shows that, while he does not want Bain, the possibility exists for him to marry both of them. Neither Bain nor Chiad is a roofmistress or a Wise One.<br /><br />But I do agree that, while the throne of Andor is called the 'Lion' throne, it is hard to fit a sword in with Elayne, which would seem make Luc, Galad, or Gawyn a better choice.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Jumping out of airplanes doesn't kill people... Hitting the ground does!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-08 15:07:06
subject: <b>One thought . . . .</b>
body:
I think Rand could pull off the walk into the sunset.<br /><br />Many people forget that as a channeler Rand is gifted with a very long lifetime. If he can disappear for 50 years or something, people who would normally recognize him would be dead. In that time he could be with Min until she died.<br /><br />His other 2 wives are also gifted with a long life span. After many people have forgotten him he could set himself up as either an Aiel or an Andorian Lord. <br /><br />I'm not saying that this will happen, but merely saying that this sunset ending is quite plausible for RJ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 20:45:50
subject: <b>Dark Prophecies</b>
body:
I'd just like to remind everybody that there is one set of prophecies that you haven't thought of...<br /><br />below is a section of the one dark prophecy that we know of. Atleast to me, it's quite clear that Rand will either die or turn (to the dark). Besides, RJ has always said, that he had the ending figured out already from the beginning. I do find an emotional suicide very interresting. <br /><br />Maybe something like this:<br />Rand stands at SG. He hears the freed DOs ultimatum. To turn or to die. Now, since the Do controlls the land of the dead, death wouldn't be pleasant. Therefore, Alivia balfires him. That puts him to eternal rest, and he won't have to worry about the DO ever again. Of course Rands three ladies will have to be there and try to stop it.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The Dark Prophecies<br />second part<br /><br />The man who channels stands alone.<br />He gives his friends for sacrifice.<br />Two roads before him, one death beyond dying, one to life eternal.<br />Which will he choose? Which will he choose?<br />What hand shelters? What hand slays?<br />Blood calls blood.<br />Blood feeds blood.<br />Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.<br /></b></font><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 20:15:50
subject: <b>Aiel</b>
body:
() Aiel never marry more than 2 Women.<br />() One is always a Roofmistres (usally the first, unless  she is a Wise One in which case she looks for a Roofmistres, Sorelia say that to Avi in LoC)<br />() I have never seen 2 Wise Ones or 2 Roofmistress married to 1 Guy.<br />() I have never seen Aiel marry more than 2 or even talk about it.<br />() When Aiel are not married they leave in there society building at the Septs Hold. When they marry the Aiel Male builds a House, at the sept. <br />() If the First Woman he marries is a Wise One she problary starts looking for someone to be her Roofmistress. If she is not a Wise One she is the Roofmistress.<br />() I don't recall seing a Wise One married to anything buy a Sept or Clan Chief.<br />() There seem to be only 1 Wise One per Sept, if there are 2 they will problary make a New Sept.<br />() There are 12 Clan with about 82 sept or so(the number of septs the Shaido have in WH and I think the Shaido are one of the smaller clans).


created: 2001-11-10 20:18:59
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Pressed Submit instead of Preview.<br /><br />The above point are what i have recored about the Aiel fro by reading of the books. I have all 9 on PDF format, aswell as in Book.<br />


created: 2001-11-12 15:13:53
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Great Theory.  <br /><br />I've always envisioned that when Rand dies, it will be LTT who actually gets waxed (Rand will have been mentally pushed aside for the battle with the DO), with Nyn(sp?) or Alivia there to heal the body after it's over.  I like the idea of Rand going off into the sunset, however, with his wives, I see him retiring to Rheudein (sp?).  Elayne stays in Andor and Avi/ Min go off with Rand to the Waste.  It's as good a place to hide as wandering around the Westlands.  What's left of the Aiel (a remenant of a remenant...) will be in Rheudein to protect Rand and keep the paparazzi away.


created: 2001-12-03 20:16:36
subject: <b>Comments on the Comments</b>
body:
First of all, it ever says one wife has to be a Wise One.  Only two cases are actually known, Rhuarc and Bael, and in Bael's case he originally only had a roofmistress.  The roof mistress is the wife of a clan, sept or hold chief.  It is mentioned in tSR that Sevanna wouldn't be happy about going back to being mistress of a single roof (her own) rather than a clan.  She owns her house and the position of roof mistress comes with being the chief's wife.  Sorilea, when suggesting that Egwene become a Wise One recommends a man as a potential husband, mentioning that he might become a clan chief someday, and Egwene should look for a sister to be his roof mistress.  Presumably a single clan chief would live with a female relative (Aiel men cannot own land or &quot;roofs&quot; see tSR), who would be his roofmistress. Presumably Elayne would qualify as the Car'a'carn's &quot;roof mistress&quot; if they ever got married (Min's viewing in &quot;New Friends, Old Enemies&quot; in tGH suggest they will regardless of how things turn out with Aviendha and Min), since she has a &quot;roof.&quot;  Aiel have refered to the Tarasin Palace, Royal Palace in Caemlyn, and the Sun Palace by the term roof.  By Aiel standards all three could be seen as Wise Ones.  And what is the difference anyway between two wives and three?  Once you start down the path of polygamy, there are no logical limits to quantity (unless he's a Moslem, then he has to stop with four, but without organized religion in the world of WOT, there is no basis or authority for arbitrary distinctions like that. Also people believe Myrelle has married all three of her Warders (pre-Lan), and when she's in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, she is wearing three marriage knives sometimes.  Besides we're talking about the Dragon Reborn.  Who's going to stop him?  He's messed with all kind of other customs and laws in all sorts of lands (if the Sea Folk think they're getting away clean, Ha ha ha!). There are likely no real boudaries to all three of them getting married to Rand, besides their own cultural inhibitions. <br />Also I believe the Lion Sword and Dedicated Spear indicate Rand will use Elayne and Aviendha as weapons at some point.  Possibly linkied to him with Callandor, where they would have to be the ones actually weilding the Power, possibly at his suggestion, or under his direction. Yes I know Narishma has used it, but that doesn't preclude Rand doing something with it.  Aside from Nynaeve or Alivia, I can't really see him letting any other woman link with him,especially considering the similarity of the link to a Warder bond, and the way he feels about Alanna's bond these days.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 14:29:47
subject: <b>Rand=Dune Messiah</b>
body:
This theory made me think of the Dune series, at least the early books.  Paul Atredies (sp?)is the one spoken of in the Fremen prophecies.  He ends up as Muad'dib and has a religion based around him and his sister.  He becomes more than a man...and thus less.  Rand has found the same thing happening to him with Masema and people treating him differently as Dragon.  Paul, by the end of Dune Messiah (book 2) walks away.  He later appears as the Prophet (no relation to Masema), but he found himself as part of a beauracracy beyond his control.  Rand, should he win the Last Battle (has anyone considered the fact that Jordan might have the Shadow win?), is going to be more and less than a man, because he is the Dragon Reborn.  I like this theory that proposes Rand walking away, not into the sunset as a hero, but away from the expectation and looks that he doesn't want.


created: 2002-06-10 04:46:35
subject: <b>Sheath the sword</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I like the theory. <br />But I think that there is a<br />posibility that Rand died at<br />TG. Remember when Lan thaught<br />him how to handle the sword?<br />''To sheath the sword in yourself''.<br />I think that maybe Rand will <br />fight with both LT and DO at<br />TG, and sheath the sword in<br />himself, kill himself. Then his<br />blood will fall on the rock and<br />the prophechy will be complete.<br /><br />What about his sickness? Will it<br />go away, now when he has cleaned Saidin?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> The wheel of time weaves as the Wheel wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 00:27:36
subject: <b>Rand's Hand</b>
body:
A while ago I read a theory on the internet regarding Min's viewing of Rand of a white hot iron and a bloody hand. I do not know who to attribute it to but it is a theory that I like.  Min has her viewing in tEotW, and though some of her viewings from then have not come to pass I think that this one possibly has.  At the end of tGH Rand fights Ishamael in the sky.  After Rand decides to Sheathe the Sword Ishamael stabs him in the side with his staff.  The feeling is describes as white hot pain, and while this happens Rand gets his second branding.  While the staff is made of wood not iron many of Min's viewings have turned out to be more figurative than literal. Having his hand branded would also more than satisfy the second part of her viewing of a bloody hand.


created: 2002-07-02 13:08:41
subject: <b>Shadow winning</b>
body:
I caught the Dune ending idea in this, too.  I really liked that idea when i read it in the Dune series, and i really like the idea here.  Even more so, i REALLY love the idea of the Shadow winning.  That would be too sweet (not that i'm big on evil beating good, but c'mon).  Even with the slower middle books, having a surprise end like that would probably be the coolest thing i've read.  The only problem i see with that is if those 4th Age snippets you see at the end of some of the books are from the next age as opposed to an age long past...the Shadow can't win because there are still people around to write.  If you remember in the Great Hunt, when Rand an Co. is in one of the Portal Stone Worlds, there was one where the Shadow won the Trolloc wars, and there was nothing left.


created: 2002-12-25 08:22:14
subject: <b>beggars staff</b>
body:
Listening/watching that video of Robert Jordan made me think about the beggar staff.<br />RJ says that all Rand really wants is to take over his fathers farm one day and BECOME a shepherd AGAIN. So he just might take his father as an example and returns to the peacefulness of the Two Rivers after he has seen the world (well, ruled it..) and indeed become a shepherd when everybody else thinks he's dead.<br />So the staff might be a shepherds staff?<br />Just a thought...


created: 2001-11-06 09:08:34
subject: <b>hm..</b>
body:
Ishamael dieing by his own choice doesnt seem too farfetched, really. But it might not necessarily be that he wanted to die so he could be shrouded in more mysteriousness, it couldve just been he wanted a youthfull body. Maybe after 3000 years he was getting arthritis or something <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~CrazyCaleb~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Lord of All<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />-Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 11:52:01
subject: <b>Raserei...</b>
body:
...kind of ignored the main point. Why would Ishamael run from Rand to TAR when he could just use the True Power and escape? He wanted Rand to follow him for some reason, I can't see any other than the fact he wanted to die.<br /><br />A good theory, it also makes sense that he'd want to return in a new body, whether to trick Rand or whatever.


created: 2001-11-06 15:59:21
subject: <b>I think he just might have...</b>
body:
I posted a theory that apparently no one liked about why Rand had to die.  It had to do with the fact that when someone dies, it wipes all the insanity away.  After all, RJ was pretty clear that the cleansing of the taint didn't reverse any insanity, it just stopped the progression of the insanity.  I thought that the Dragon needed his wits about him at TG, so he had to die and come back.  My reasoning was that crazy Ishamael was replaced by calm, youthful (if True Power-crazy) Moridin and that Rand wasn't born with LTT's insanity.<br /><br />Maybe Ishamael had some voice in the back of his head telling him to let himself die, that the Great Lord wouldn't forget him.  Hell, he was crazy enough that he might have decided to do it even without a little voice to tell him.<br /><br />And it's clear that dying was the best thing that happened to Ishamael.  He traded a shattered body for a normal one, he let the bats out of his proverbial belfry and he fooled the good guys into thinking he's gone so they won't be looking for him.  It's enough reason for one to think he did it on purpose.  But to agree with the theory unreservedly is post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 17:19:31
subject: <b>On Balefire</b>
body:
Ishy didn't use BF because the DO wanted to be able to turn Rand. Once BF'd Rand couldn't even be brought back by the DO.<br />However, Ishy should have known some pretty impressive stuff from his years of OP/TP use (like the 'storm' Rand uses in the Stone of Tear at the start of TSR) so it's still a question as to why he didn't.<br />Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 12:50:30
subject: <b>I think you are right</b>
body:
Ishamael knew a lot of things and I do think he and the big boss were intimate pals, if I could be so free as to use words like those.<br />Moridin, who I agree is Ishy reborn, seems to know that no Forsaken can challenge Rand and live, and this is something he either must have known all along or figured out lately. I do think him capable of going against Rand to the death, killing himself, just to find out; after all, if HE cannot kill Rand, noone can.<br />Thimbs up for you... you are a genious<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 17:05:07
subject: <b>1</b>
body:
From Ishamael's previous experience with fighting Lews Therin, he probably knew that the Dragon can see the after image of weaves, so he used the One Power to go into TAR so that Rand could copy what he did and follow him. So why would Ishamael want Rand to follow him?<br /><br />Rand had Callandor and was stronger than him, even though he has a much larger bag of tricks.<br /><br />Therefore, he went to the only place where he had a chance. (If he had traveled, Rand could have copied that and fried him anywhere he went) Remember that is was said that Moghedien is a lot stronger than Lanfear was in TAR, even though Lanfear was much stronger than her in the waking world. Ishamael also was an experienced user of TAR, whereas Rand is clueless. Ishamael fled there in the hope that he could defeat him. Remember that the stuff he threw at Rand was pretty powerful!<br /><br />So that's that.


created: 2001-11-08 07:02:49
subject: <b>Woah!</b>
body:
Since when could Rand see the after image of weaves? I never picked up on him having this talent. Could we have some examples please?<br /><br />If you simply mean that he copied what Ishamael did, well, he would hardly need to that talent to do that. Firstly, I believe Ishamael was using the True Power in that battle, so Rand wouldn't have been able to see the weaves or after images at all (though I may be wrong). Secondly I seem to remember Rand entering TAR because he felt something like a folding in the air. He didn't see the weaves at all. If you read the part of Fires of Heaven (I think) where Rand meets with Nynaeve just after Rahvin was defeated, you'll see that when entering and leaving TAR, even a woman can feel the folding in the air, yet they can't sense saidar at all. So it's not being able to see the after image of a weave that allowed Rand to follow Ishamael, he just felt the folding in the air and channeled instinctively (as he does) and tried to do the same thing.<br /><br />However, if you have other evidence of Rand having the talent, I'd love to hear them.


created: 2001-11-08 20:56:24
subject: <b>Proof... or atleast sort of....</b>
body:
When Rand fights in Illian, to become king, he reads the Sammaels weave, and thinks, that if he alters it a bit, he'll end up in a different place. which he does. That's how he wins the battle. (by not going straight into Sammaels trap)<br /><br />so, wes, there is proof of Rands ability to read weaves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 04:20:05
subject: <b>Examples of seeing weaves</b>
body:
Chapter 3 of LoC gives a couple of examples, such as when Rand weaves the gateway to take Taim to the BT. Rand tells Taim that he will show him how to make a gateway if he didn't catch it. That same scene shows Rand's POV &quot;The man was staring at him. If he had been watching carefully, he should have seen Rand's weaving of saidan; any man able to channel could do that.&quot; Later on in the same chapter, Taim shows Rand the test to see if another man can channel. &quot;Rand could feel the Power in Taim, though only in a small amount, and see the thin flow of Fire the man wove.&quot;<br />For one more example, look to the last chapter of CoS. Sammael had just taunted Rand in to following him to Shadar Logoth. &quot;The residue of Sammael's gateway hung in the air, the dissipating flows like faintly glowing ghosts. Not so faint that Rand could not make them out though...If he copied exactly what he saw exactly, he would step out wherever Sammael had...&quot; Thanks to Da'covale for reminding me where I could find that last example.


created: 2001-11-18 16:11:15
subject: <b>some thoughts</b>
body:
1)rand can read the after image of weaves.  That is how he followed rhavin to T'A'R'.<br /><br />2)Ishy is talking about the game with the fisher (i forget what its called) and says that a more crude way of winning was to overwhelm your opponant in a giant battle.  He says he had tried that once and it had failed, with some &quot;unfortunate&quot; consequences.  This is obviously a metaphor for his all-out assault on rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 11:20:59
subject: <b>I disagree too</b>
body:
Ishy did try to kill Rand, but he defended well.<br />Ishy did balefire Rand, but Callandor stopped it.<br />Ishy did try to fle, but Rand followed in Tel'aran'rhiod.<br />It was not death wish that was leading Ishy. He did what he<br />could.<br />And... if the True Power was better than a Rand+Callandor,<br />why would not Ishy just kill Rand ? or why Morridin don't<br />use his full power ? or something. or.. take Rand prisoner<br />.


created: 2002-11-21 08:18:29
subject: <b>Strongly Agree</b>
body:
I think this a really good theory and one i admit i would never have thought of myself. There is no doubting that Ishy was stronger than Rand, was he not stronger than LTT originally? Plus he could have used the TP. I think he died to fool everyone on the Light side to think he was dead and so thsat he could back with a new better body


created: 2004-02-15 15:57:58
subject: <b>flaming fisher</b>
body:
It seems obvious to me that Ishy/Moridin wants to turn Rand to the Great Lord's side. <br />As the DO's most precious follower, he just wants its will done or maybe his own will (depends on how much of sanity he has left), but that is not the point.<br />The point is that all along he had tried to turn Rand to the dark side.<br />Otherwise: he could have killed Rand whenever he liked when he appeared to him, as Ba'alzamon. And as Moridin, the now famous monologue he had with his game and the Fisher points out the fact that the best way to defeat someone is to make him do what we want, without him knowing. But then, it's too late...<br /><br />So thumbs down buddy...


created: 2001-11-06 00:38:17
subject: <b>where?</b>
body:
where does it say he wll lose his hand? I dont remember that at all.<br />hmmm.<br />nice job though.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;center&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />*o* Gandalf's Aprentice *o*&lt;/center&gt;<br /><br /><i>&quot;the gift is the blessing of the giver&quot;</i><br />                       Frank Herbert <b>'Dune'</b><br /><br />o<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It wasn't me. I swear! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 09:17:52
subject: <b>visions</b>
body:
Nice theory.. and it could be true.. However, another theory comes to mind right now. Not the theory itself, actually, but in it the person separated the visions of Egwene, Perrin, Elaida, Nicola, and Min into sort of categories. Egwene's visions he said were more &quot;figurative&quot; (i think thats the term), and I kind of agree. I dont think she actually sees the things in her visions as if she's watching the event, she sees stuff which sort of symbolizes what will happen. For example, Rand might not actually make a dead corpse out of paper, which Logain will then step over for some reason. It symbolizes him faking his death and letting Logain come to power, or so people think. So, since egwene's images arent literal viewings of the future, she probably wouldnt see Rand with only one hand unless him having lost a hand was relevant to the current viewing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~CrazyCaleb~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Lord of All<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />-Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 11:58:27
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
It depends upon whether the losing of a hand actually meant his physical hand or something else.<br /><br />As the guy above said, I don't think Egwene is actually seeing the future, she's simply seeing things that hint at what's really going to happen.


created: 2001-11-06 14:59:31
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
I juste re-read tEotW, when i came across Rand saying something like: I would rather cut of my hand than touching the Source again.<br />We all know he has been using the OP for a lot of things and I just thought that it was an image just showing that he would use the OP again.<br />This, of course, does not expplain why Rand was made like Tyr, but I had to write this down <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-06 15:34:49
subject: <b>What about the symbol of Rand losing his hand means..</b>
body:
that he will lose a close advisor to him. Someone he trusts. Who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> The Pike <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Music Monster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 22:53:33
subject: <b>Not necessarily his hand at all....</b>
body:
... First off there hasn't definitively been a viewing of Rand losing a hand. Just one of a bloody hand<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 23:02:32
subject: <b>continuing what I was saying...</b>
body:
sorry the computer posted it before I was done or something... anyhow...<br /><br />   Mins viewing of a severed hand was in reference to Elayne. All that was said was that the hand was not hers (Elaynes). The only vieiwng of a hand in reference to Rand was a bloody hand and a hot iron. Those might be the same event and they might not. Either way, nothing has stated that the hand will belong to Rand at all. So we don't have enough evidence to be positive that Rand WILL lose one of his hands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 18:12:04
subject: <b>The only problem...</b>
body:
The only problem I see with Rand pretending to be dead for the next book is that he hasn't united all the nations yet.  Some are still at war and the ones that aren't will just go their own way if they think he's dead.


created: 2001-11-09 14:05:29
subject: <b>severed right hand?</b>
body:
Perhaps the image of the severed hand implies that Rand will do away with his &quot;right-hand man&quot; Taim once he finds out the truth about him, and then fake his own death, allowing Logain to assume control of the Black Tower.


created: 2001-11-12 15:48:31
subject: <b>Soadist</b>
body:
If were are loking right at the story now, i think the 'hand' is taim, rand already faked his death, somewhat, and that taim will take rands place in the public eye.....but that is only now...........there are still more books, and it could be something which we completely have no clue about yet, and I think the second is mroe likely


created: 2001-11-13 18:54:12
subject: <b>Another thing...</b>
body:
I think this is pretty old theory and it was wile since I last read the book with the dream and min... but the hand can be a symbol or something, not necessary the band of the red hand. but soldiers of Rand doing some nasty killing and so getting bloody and is used like a hot iron against the enemies...


created: 2001-11-28 18:44:26
subject: <b>random series of letters: kjsoijfiodfjsijfs...</b>
body:
As far as Egwene's visions being entirely symbolic, I don't think this is true.  I seem to remember that she had a vision of Perrin with a beard and made a comment about the oddness of this vision, since she didn't know at the time that Perrin had grown a beard (I don't have the books on me, and I'm not sure if this is correct.  Help?).  As far as Min's vision of the bloody hand above Rand being figurative and not literal (he'll lose someone close to him, not his actual hand), I think that we can't say for sure yet if this vision will turn out to be symbolic or not.  Min's visions encompass both.  She literally sees people's deaths (like with the Aes Sedai in the tower), but she also sees symbolic visions (Thom pulling Moiraine's blue stone from the fire).  This vision of a bloody hand could be either.  I am simply presenting an interpretation of events assuming that the vision is literal.  It may or may not be.  We can't disprove the theory yet because we don't have the necessary info at this time.  Thanks for the comments!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 02:34:24
subject: <b>Logain = Hand</b>
body:
Logain, stepping up for Rand, is his &quot;right-hand-man&quot;.  This can only mean that Logain will either sacrafice himself or get killed in service to Rand.


created: 2002-04-03 00:56:41
subject: <b>Whose hand?</b>
body:
Either in one of Min's viewings or one of Egwene's dreams is where this business of a severed hand comes up.  However, as I recall that glimpse into the future concerned Elayne but the hand was not hers. Could it not be someone else completely? Why is it assumed that the severed hand is Rand's?  What other eveidence is there to support this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Revenge is a dish best served....with a can of whoop@$$ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 16:11:59
subject: <b>I hope Rand loses his hand</b>
body:
.....because my Handle would be pretty stupid if he didn't. <br /><br />I think the purpose of including that in the vision of Elayne is that we can tell that this whole hand thing probably involves both her and Rand somehow. It may have something to do with Andor also.  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 10:54:29
subject: <b>The Hand = the red hand</b>
body:
This is not my idea, I read it somewhere on this site, but I think it is Mat's band of the red Hand that gets severed from Rand. I don't believe Rand will physically loose his hand. (sorry about that, Rands_severed_hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Engeltje <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I'm not a guru or a sage. I'm a storyteller. The only times I get disturbed is when I find people who seem to be taking this too seriously.&quot; - Robert Jordan <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 19:59:58
subject: <b>Elayne's hand viewing</b>
body:
if the viewing of the hand is figurative for a person and it appears with elayne wouldn't her right-hand man be considered her brother 'Gawyn' and his possible loss???


created: 2002-10-31 03:40:55
subject: <b>i like it...</b>
body:
it sounds plausable, but i like engeltje's view on the hand thing as well.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 00:30:35
subject: <b>didnt he already &quot;die&quot;?</b>
body:
Well, after the crazy Ashaman savaged the sun palace or whatever, the only ones that knew he was still alive were the Ashaman that were following him (and the select few he encourted in his flight out of the castle and jumping around to Far Madding, even then, under disguise so only the nobles he left in charge at Cairhienin).  They could have possibly told Taim he still lives, or Taim already knows, but everyone else doesnt know where he is or if he still lives (everyone has there own theories).  I dunno, this may not be the &quot;significant&quot; fake death.  Hey, could someone tell me where the thing about Rands hand is from, i cant remember when that was said.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Now matter how hard the wind blows, the mountain shall never bow to it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-29 02:58:13
subject: <b>bloody hand</b>
body:
it could mean that someone gets blood in his/hers hands... why does it have to be literally cut off? well maybe this is stupid idea but anyway...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-30 06:44:01
subject: <b>Elayne/Gawyn</b>
body:
Reading the theory posts all discussions revolve around Mat and the band of the red hand; however, Say the hand means Gawyn and the split between her and her brother.<br /><br />TGH P.362 Elayne says Min saw the Rose Crown of Andor before she knew who she was, and then 7 lines later refers to the severed hand not her own. Then Gawyn shows up.<br /><br />&quot;And I am Gawyn&quot; -the other young man grinned- &quot;since I don't think you heard the first time.&quot; Min was grinning, too and only Elayne wore a frown. Egwene abruptly remembered her hand, still held by Gawyn, and freed it.<br /><br />I think people are reading not enough into the relationship between the Queen of Andor and the First Prince of the Sword.<br /><br />Please let me know if i have missed another reference to Rand actually losing a hand or if all this talk is only from this viewing


created: 2003-03-07 06:18:56
subject: <b>Rand's Bloody Hand</b>
body:
I have always thought of the bloody hand being kind of like Macbeth. Thousands of people have died at his hands or because of him and thousands more will as the reborn dragon couldn't the history of Lews Therin killing his kin be a reason for blood on his hands that will never come off?


created: 2003-03-19 14:26:28
subject: <b>False Rand</b>
body:
I always thought the important part of this was that Egwene dreams Logain stepping over a dead <i>false</i> Rand.  False Rand = False Dragon?  I always took this to be confirmation that eventually (PLEASE next book ... please!!) Logain will take Taim out and gain control of the Asha'man.<br /><br />As for Elayne and the severed hand, pre-CoT, I thought that the hand would refer to Shaidar Haran, and not Rand ending up Luke-ified, but I guess I need to reconsider that now!


created: 2003-11-26 23:11:20
subject: <b>rand and death</b>
body:
I havent seen anyone paoint out that Rand is in a coma.  He just freaking cleansed Saidin.  So maybe Rand is gonna be out of commisoin for awhile, its not like we didnt have Matt for a book.  So perhaps Logain is gonn have to do Rand's dirty business. Kill Taim, the right hand.  Oh yeah if the the Balck Tower has a civil war, and Taim is killed, wouldn't that kind of be a hot iron and a bloddy hand. Heck maybe Logain will be hurt, the bloody hand doesnt have to mean that that person is dead, maybe just bloody\<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-06 01:45:47
subject: <b>two Aes Sedai....</b>
body:
I always took the two Aes Sedai on the scales to be the two Mat rescues in Ebu Dar. If Mat hadn't agreed to help them escape he wouldn't have been in the palace at the time and therefore would not have run into Tuon and had to take her captive. Tuon will help him towards the second part of Mat's prophecies which will be to &quot;give up half the light..&quot; That in itself seems to explain why the two Aes Sedai that Mat decides to save are such a monumental decision.


created: 2001-11-06 06:00:04
subject: <b>WOW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This is possibly the BEST theory i've ever read here...<br /><br />GREAT work dude...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Damael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Women love us for our defects. If we have enough of them, they will forgive us everything, even our gigantic intellects&quot;.</i> - Oscar Wilde</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 09:24:15
subject: <b>You didn't mention Egwene's dream with Mat bleeding</b>
body:
You didn't mention Egwene's dream with Mat's face bleeding and his hat drawn low.  Something I didn't notice until now was in that dream it mentions that this is happening while Thom is pulling Moiraine's jewel from the fire.  In other words the visions about Thom and Mat are from the same dream!  They are therefore connected in some way.  Any chance there is another doorway to the the land of the Finns in Ebou Dar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 12:04:44
subject: <b>Seriously</b>
body:
The unstained tower bending knee has already happened. read the end of LoC again, Jordan basically tells us that what has happened is referring to the prophecy, he's never been more clear about any part of the Prophecies of the Dragon.


created: 2001-11-06 14:12:11
subject: <b>It is possible</b>
body:
that the unstained tower refers to a reunited tower.  Not all of the Aes Sedai from Salidar bent knee to Rand, including Egwene.  The Aes Sedai with Egwene are not a part of the tower YET, and RJ has had made it clear that that is the destination and the desire of the &quot;rebel&quot; Aes Sedai.  It seems that only when the Tower is reunited in TV will we have an &quot;unstained tower.&quot;  I don't believe it is clear that this has already occurred.  A few Aes Sedai swearin fealty, without the addition of the Amyrlin, do not represent an unstained tower bending knee.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 15:52:22
subject: <b>A quote</b>
body:
from LoC. SPOILER<br /><br />  &quot;On a day of fire and blood, a tattered banner waved above Dumai's Well's, bearing the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai.<br />   On a day of fire and blood and the One Power, as prophecy had suggested, the unstained tower, broken, bent knee to the forgotten sign.&quot;<br /><br />As I've said before, it's possibly the only instance thus far where Jordan has actually pointed out to us what part pf the prophecy means.


created: 2001-11-07 09:30:30
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
You are right Three... in fact I just read the same quote last night. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 21:06:28
subject: <b>Unstained Tower</b>
body:
&quot;The Unstained Tower will break and bend to the forgotten sign. What was exalted is now casted down and what was cast down was raised up&quot; <br /><br />This is about Male and Female Channelers, not Verin &amp; Co.<br /><br />The Black Tower is being raised up and the White Tower is on its way down.


created: 2001-11-07 21:36:09
subject: <b>Mat's bleeding</b>
body:
Egwene dreamt of Mat with his hat pulled low covering a wound that was bleeding.<br /><br />When Mat fought the Shaido in Cairhein he took a wound across his forhead. After the battle he was sitting on a rock and had his hat pulled low across the wound to shield the sun.<br /><br />This could be the dreams reality.<br /><br />Moiraine soon wrote Thom a letter which she gave to Rand.<br />


created: 2001-11-08 13:31:54
subject: <b>The Horn</b>
body:
We believe, but we can&#180;t be certain that the HoV is still connected to Mat as he had been killed by Rahvin and was only resurrected by Rand&#180;s balefire. The question is, who knows this? Siuan certainly not, and I&#180;m not sure if Egwene or Verin do. So it might be successful if Rand himself blew the horn...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 16:28:48
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
the use of balefire makes any preceeding events &quot;unoccur.&quot;  (the stronger the balefire, the more events are unraveled)<br />It makes it as if it never happened.  So in essence, Mat did not die.  Rahvin's actions were erased/annuled/nullified...made non-existent.  There was no actual resurrection; he simply did not die.  So he therefore remains the Hornblower.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 20:20:54
subject: <b>Hanging!!</b>
body:
don't forget that matt was hung in book 4!  Rand brought him back to life with CPR( or their version of it).  this could have cut the bonds of the HoV.  the balefire incident did nothing to this bond.<br /><br />CAI<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> i love this sign!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> Boba Fett is the MAN!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-03 01:25:49
subject: <b>Unstained Tower bends</b>
body:
I have a thought about one of your paragraphs MattTaz.  You said,<br /><br />&quot;I put into an earlier post that the &quot;unstained Tower will break and bend to the forgotten sign&quot;. Some said this was Verin, Kurina &amp; Co swearing fealty to Rand, but I doubt Verin &amp; Co could be descibed as an 'unstained tower'. This must be the White Tower. And for the White Tower to bend to Rand, this must mean they have been dealt a huge blow.&quot;<br /><br />The unstained tower is TV's white flame and the forgotten sign is the old Aes Sedai sign that Rand carries.  I believe that all that means is that the White and Black Tower will join together as one.  Just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-09 13:52:54
subject: <b>a new tower for sure....</b>
body:
I agree with 'Immortal, above. I suspect the broken, unstained tower in prophecy alludes to the result when Egwene reclaimes the WT...such that half the Aes Sedai fighting between Egwene and the Elaida die, leaving an unstained tower operating at less than capacity and without the old-school Red Aja. Consequently, when the Seanchan attack 'in rows' on Tar Valon, Egwene will be forced to unite with Logain and the ash'aman (after they have their own internecine with Taim and the BT); so restoring the Aes Sedai as it was first made in the AoL and bowing to it's sign.<br /><br />In regards to Mat's eye and balanace scale, I don't agree with anything said as of yet. If 'half the light of the world' does allude to his physical eye, then yes, its payment to the Finns for Moiraine would work...but to what end? How does that correlate to 'saving the world'? Maybe saving Moiraine is his balance scale with two Aes Sedai (and losing his eye physically), but I don't think it necessarily includes the 'world' prophecy.<br /><br />So if his physical eye is not 'half the light of the world', then I'll go with the idea of yielding something to the DO ... but only if its to 'save the world', which would be saving Rand, somehow and for whatever ill he will have. I don't recall any fullfillment of *real* prophecy (Finns are just wordy soothsayers) of Mat saving the world, only Rand does. Hence I'll agree that Mat has to somehow use the HoV to save Rand and lose something to the DO, as that the HoV is his only weapon for such big-stakes.


created: 2002-02-09 22:54:56
subject: <b>Unstained Tower</b>
body:
Wow, is everyone who posted on this blackboard a Taimandred believer???<br /><br />Only that topic brought out so many people who stubbornly disregarded things THAT RJ ACTUALLY SAID IN THE BOOKS.<br /><br />As the one sane post above said, re-read that last paragraph of LoC and realize that Rand fulfilled the prophecy at Dumai's Wells on that day. <br /><br />Doubting that would be like doubting that Falme was where the true Dragon was going to proclaim himself, and thus, that Rand is the Dragon Reborn.


created: 2002-02-19 21:14:55
subject: <b>Last Paragraph &amp; Prophecy</b>
body:
The last paragraph of LoC<br />&quot;As the prophecy SUGGESTED the unstained tower broke and bend to the forgotten sign&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Suggested&quot; is the key word. <br /><br />And again the Unstained Tower is the White Tower, and the White Tower has NOT bent the knee to anybody.<br />Verin &amp; Co are not the unstained tower<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-24 12:52:54
subject: <b>Mat's eye - Odin parallels.</b>
body:
RJ has given Mat many of the attributes of the Norse god Odin.  Eg, broad brimmed hat, fights with a spear, associated with 2 ravens.  More important, Odin submitted to be hanged from the tree of the world in exhange for knowledge, and later gave up an eye in exchange for wisdom.<br /><br />Now, we know Mat gained knowledge in exchange for being hanged by the Finns.   I would have thought wisdom will be what he gets when he sacrifices an eye.  We know from what Aginor (or was it Balthamel) said in EotW that Mat is &quot;an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot;.  None of his present memories of the ancient generals are before the breaking, so they can't be what the Forsaken is talking about.  Whatever it does mean, Mat will discover it when he sacrifices his eye.<br /><br />I do believe this will happen when he &amp; Thom rescue Moiraine from the Finns.  It will be the other set of Finns he makes the bargain with (I never can recall which is which), the ones who answer questions rather than the ones who grant requests.<br /><br />And something about what he learns that day will be crucial to defeating the DO.


created: 2002-03-06 15:47:19
subject: <b>white tower black tower</b>
body:
so far in reading all of the comments on this message board everybody believes that the unstained tower is the white tower. but (bash me if I'm wrong cos I read the posts at 2 am) doesn't it not mention in the profecy whether it's the white tower or the black tower. the 'unstained tower' could be the result of the split in the black tower. I say this because in WH RJ frequently makes allusions to the different factions in the black tower. I also have reason to believe that  Mazrim Taim and his factions are darkfriends.


created: 2002-06-06 23:17:43
subject: <b>response to Cai (a while up)</b>
body:
I don't think that Mat was saved from dying through use of CPR, because on the first day that he was in Rhuidian, Mat talked to the Finn, and when Rand cut him down they departed almost immediately.  However, when they returned to the Aiel camp, they were informed that they had been gone for aproximately 9 days.  This implies that Mat was hanging for a little over 8 days.  It is not possible for CPR to help after that, the person just wouldn't be alive anymore.  <br /><br />I think that the previous statement probably lends more credence to Mat not being connected to the HoV anymore, however I will reserve my judgement on this.<br /><br />until my next post, I remain:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 09:41:01
subject: <b>White Tower.. unstained? Huh?</b>
body:
Who in their right mind could describe the White Tower as unstained?  It's full of Black Ajah and women trying to control the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />It's entirely possible that Verin &amp; Co are &quot;the unstained Tower&quot; since they represent Aes Sedai (often associated with the Tower, of course) and they are unstained (they're not Black Ajah and they're totally devoted to Rand.. at least, they're &quot;in his hand,&quot; as Min says).


created: 2002-07-30 15:44:28
subject: <b>the unstained tower</b>
body:
Well, the only thing I can say to this theory about the unstained tower broke and bending knee is this:<br />The prophecy says &quot;..the unstained tower broke and bend to the forgotten sign..&quot; As I believe, prophecy isn't fulfilled all at once in one blow. Therefore, here is how I view it. The unstained tower is obviously the White Tower. Who can sanely deny that? Well, as for this tower breaking and bending knee...isn't the Tower already broke? It's been broken, so why think that the Tower has to be restored of the previous breaking and break a second time? It's ludicrous. Anyway, those few Aes Sedai did bend knee, and Aes Sedai represent the White Tower, so the unstained tower is bending knee. But no where says they'll all bend knee at once, if in fact, they all bend knee...but you gotta start somewhere.<br /><br />Corevin<br /><br />Brain Damage is all in your head<br /><br />I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous<br />


created: 2002-09-04 23:09:16
subject: <b>Light of the World</b>
body:
The light of the world is saidin and saidar.<br /><br />The White and Black Tower may best represent this. I can't say how Mat losing his left eye would save the entire planet and nobody has come up with a good idea yet (I think)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-09-27 20:56:10
subject: <b>Me Again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Imagine if the White Tower was flattened and the surviving AS joined the rest of the Aes Sedai with Logain.<br /><br />Rand who now is in war-mode might say &quot;you will do as Logain says&quot;<br /><br />All of the sudden Logain becomes the 2nd most powerful man in the world. &quot;Power and Glory such as few men have ever dreamed of&quot;<br />


created: 2002-10-03 02:23:34
subject: <b>Hmmmmm.....Interesting.</b>
body:
Ok, well, to take what several of you said and put it all in a blender and hit blend...  Let's see...<br /><br />Matt is going to give up half the light of the world to save the world.  And the &quot;unstained Tower will break and bend to the forgotten sign&quot;.  <br /><br />Now, Corevin said above that the white tower is already broken, absolutely true.  Shinowa mentioned Min's veiwing about all the Aes Sedai in Collars.  <br /><br />Ok, so I think it's pretty clear that the unstained tower is the white tower, my question is, couldn't the white tower also be the &quot;half the light of the world&quot; that Matt gives up?  If he gave the white tower to the Seanchen in some way, couldn't that be the White tower bending knee to the forgotten sign?  The symbol of the Royalty/Return could easily be the Forgotten Sign spoken of.  Anyway, just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Son of the Nine Moons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Brother-in-Law to Matt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I read more <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  They're coming to take me away. Heh heh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Son of the Nine Moons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Brother-in-law to Matt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I read more <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> They're coming to take me away. Heh heh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 16:10:21
subject: <b>Mats eye</b>
body:
&quot;give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot;<br /><br />maybe this means simply that he will lose an eye to save the world.  That would be half of his light.  Now the question becomes why....Nynaeve thinks anything short of death can be healed.  We have seen reference to Rand possibly becoming blind for some reason.  What if Mat &quot;donates&quot; one of his eye's to use in the healing of Rand's sight so he can channel.  Just a thought but maybe we are reading too much into &quot;give up half the light&quot;


created: 2007-03-30 13:10:01
subject: <b>thats a good point</b>
body:
the theroy i heard ws half the light of the world is his eye .. evidence is the views eye on a scale, and blood on his face. and the reason for HIS eye being so important i have seen was he needs to give up his eye to the finn to save Moiraine and that would explain why it's so important, Moiraine is to save Rand (via another min view) any way long story short that was my orginal perception of the half the light of the world theory. but now these comments have led me to be other wise.... light of the world being the one power. and half being either Saidin or Saidar and that he would give up half the light of the world, the white tower, via through sheanchan attacking the white tower. to save the world. <br /><br /><br />long story short .... don't like the theory this post is about but do like the comments made in agrument, nice idea and good thoughts


created: 2001-11-06 08:59:54
subject: <b>Nice..</b>
body:
Good theory, though Im not entirely sure about the PS part. I do seem to remember someone (probably verin) saying that as well. However, Im not sure how feasible it would be to carry troops through portal stones. It seems like one of the forsaken wouldve mentioned it if it were a good plan.. Maybe you cant carry people from other realities to ours, this seems like it would especially be true with the &quot;dimmer&quot; reflections of our world, and that's probably where the DO has won most often.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~CrazyCaleb~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Lord of All<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />-Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 09:52:05
subject: <b>quit while you're ahead....</b>
body:
you blew it with the p.s.  There is one constant in all possible worlds:  the DO is imprisoned in all or free in all....thus it is not possible to Travel to a world where he is free to recruit troops; as long as he is bound in one he is bound in all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 11:00:03
subject: <b>Like the theroy...</b>
body:
And I like the PS too.  Some are saying &quot;those are the worlds that MIGHT have been&quot;, but I think those are worlds that ARE.  I believe those worlds are just as real as the one the books take place in.  The only reason, IMO, that the worlds felt wrong to Rand, Loial, and Hurin was because they were of a different world.  I believe that if a person from one of the alternate realities came into The world we know from the books, it would feel wrong to them, because they are from a different reality, and aren't supposed to be there at all.  So in conclusion, It's entirely possible that those worlds could be used to pull out more troops, though the logistics involved in doing such a thing are mind blowing.  P.S:  I love talking about alternate realities <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With fear, serve with death.  Glee with fear, kiss thy child.  Perhaps He shall bestow thou into oblivion in vain.  Amen.&quot; - Knight of the Church Paladin Alexander Anderson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 12:19:14
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I don't have a quote on me, but I definitely remember Verin saying that if the DO was freed in one of those world's, he'd be freed in all, but if he wasn't freed in one, he wouldn't be freed in any of the others either. You're not meant to be able to understand it, neither Verin or Egwene do.<br /><br />About the theory, ta'veren can't influence the threads by will, even subconciously. The pattern may well protect Mat, but just because there is some thought in the back of his head that he doesn't want the Aes Sedai who know about the horn to tell anyone, doesn't mean the pattern changes to accomodate it.<br /><br />These theories are always hard to sort out. Who says the starting point is Mat needing protection from the pattern over the Horn? How far back do you want to go? If I wanted to I could go all the way back to Mat being the one carrying the Horn when they needed to use it, did the pattern designate that? Did the pattern decide that the hornsounder would also be the one who grows so sick he needs to be taken to Tar Valon? I could name a hundred different possible starting points for the link to Suian Sanche being stilled and the Tower breaking, I doubt any of them would be right.


created: 2001-11-06 23:50:36
subject: <b>Why Mat?</b>
body:
If you look at what happened as a result of the Tower split (most importantly, Rand being kidnapped by Elaida's AS), it would make more sense that the Pattern had been prepping for the revolt for years, all so that twenty or so AS could put the DR in a box and make him really, really hate channelers.  Or at least, more sense than that Mat wants to leave the Tower.  When he first wishes to leave (which I think was before the Intrepid Three were assigned to look for the BA), there is nothing for him to do.  Really, the only important thing Mat does in TDR is save Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene from the Tairen dungeon.  Which (if I'm understanding your theory correctly) wouldn't have happened had Mat not wished to leave.  A bit of a paradox, since he only gets a job to do upon leaving when he decides he wants to go.  It makes more sense that, if the Tower split were part of some vast eternal plan, it be an important plan.<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-11-07 10:46:52
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
I liked the PS more than the actual theory and i disagree with the post about it being a constant (whether the DO is free in all worlds)<br /><br />I think you have to look at it from the point of that world being one battle in an everlasting war (thats what the Wheel of Time symbolises)<br /><br />Anyway loved the PS thought the theory stank (go figure) <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;center&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />*o* Gandalf's Aprentice *o*&lt;/center&gt;<br /><br /><i>&quot;the gift is the blessing of the giver&quot;</i><br />                       Frank Herbert <b>'Dune'</b><br /><br />o<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It wasn't me. I swear! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 16:42:17
subject: <b>Read the books...</b>
body:
It says IN THE BOOKS that the other worlds are world that might've been.  And it says IN THE BOOKS that either the DO is free in all of them or he's free in none of them.  I don't think you can disagree with those statements unless you feel like telling RJ he doesn't know what he's talking about.  It's not a big deal, of course.  I don't think the portal stones will play any part in the rest of the series anyway.  But I'm still trying to figure out how there're still people that believe Faile is a DF.  It helps to read the books first before you say Faile is a DF.


created: 2001-11-07 21:47:01
subject: <b>On a side note......</b>
body:
Liked the theory but..<br /><br />Your p.s. brought up another question about Selene/ Lanfear (sp)...  how did she know what world Rand and company would end up in after a night next to the portal stone?  Would love to hear some feed back on that.<br /><br />Bill


created: 2001-11-08 13:43:51
subject: <b>Portal Stones</b>
body:
The books also say that the Portal Stones are from an age even before the AoL and little was known about them even then. I think that this is one of the reasons why they were never used by the Forsaken (the other one is that they all can Travel)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 06:18:35
subject: <b>portal stones.....</b>
body:
as to the theroy of recruting from other worlds, i seem to remeber that in the Gide, it says that most of the Seanchan exotics were from other plains of exsistance. i dont know if it says how they got here or who brought them but they are not from around these parts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> so why could you not bring other things through. with people though i think it would be a bad thing if you met the verision of you from another world. for i think that in each world are the splits in Fate. Rand did one thing intead of another and this is what happened.. and so on and so forth. i may be wrong but hey i usualy am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vkandis, The Sun Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />The Prince of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br />The Angel of Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />JTHM <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br />The Hunter<br />Lord of Little things that go bump in the Night <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 05:40:53
subject: <b>Portal Stones</b>
body:
To those of you who do not believe in the alternate realities provided by portal stones, would you please explain to me where Rand, Loial, and Hurin spent several days and several chapters in TGH. They fell asleep in the vicinity of a portal stone in their own world and woke the next day in another world. They instinctively knew that they were, as the saying goes, not in Kansas anymore. They all felt a queasiness when they looked in the distance, that feeling may have been caused by the time distortion they experienced. That queasiness continued until Selene (aka Lanfear) led them to another portal stone which Rand used to return the group to their own world. The land around the entry portal stone was somewhat different in both worlds, i.e. they were in the middle of the hollow instead of on the edge. The land around the exit portal stone was the same land, which allowed Rand and Co. to intercept Fain. I don't know about you, but the above along with several comments in those chapters from Selene, seems pretty indicative to me that there are other realities, other worlds that tie into our heroes home world although some are vastly different.


created: 2001-11-12 01:54:56
subject: <b>The problem is...</b>
body:
Those worlds are basically Worlds that <i>might</i> have been.  The past of those worlds is the past that is not of the real world, it is it's own.  That Tower of Trolloc Names instead of the one that Hawking built is an example.  The worlds are could have happened.  <br /><br />Alternate dimensions if you will.  If a person were to step from this other world, a world that is not, only could have, wouldn't they cease to exist in the real world, since they do not exist there?  <br /><br />It'd be like trying to weave in a thread into the pattern that has no rightly place there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 05:10:30
subject: <b>Not looking to start a huge argument but ...</b>
body:
Raserei, parallel worlds exist. This is a quote straight from the guide. Chapter 18 Exotic Animals of Seanchan, page 163, second paragraph. This quote is in reference to grolm, torm, lopar, corlm, raken, and to'raken as evidenced by the first line of the third paragraph. &quot;These stange new creatures were not shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the breaking,...&quot;<br /><br />That goes against the argument you made in your last post that stated if a person were to step from this other world that is not, only could have, wouldn't they cease to exist in the real world, since they do not exist there. The guide says that even though a creature may not have evolved on Rand's world, that they can be brought there from worlds that parallel Rand's world. Also regarding the world that Rand and Co. spent time in, it is pretty apparent that for some reason or other that Hawking lost that battle big time, else why would that Trolloc monument still be standing. And if the trollocs so completely overwhelmed Rand's world that they had to resort to killing themselves, as supposed by Loial, then that would mean that Rand and Co. did not exist on this parallel world originally, which from your argument, they would cease to exist on the parallel world, since from that world's perspective it is the real world.<br /><br />Now don't get me wrong, I believe there is, for a lack of better term, a base world, the one that RJ is writing about. I believe that these parallel worlds arise from a monumental decision having different consequences, such as Hawking's battle with the Trollocs. In Rand's world he wins it and we have the world as we know it, in the parallel world he loses that battle and there is the nothingness that exists there.


created: 2002-06-19 17:34:13
subject: <b>twist of pattern</b>
body:
Well, first of all, Lanfear went through the portal stone while Rand channelled in his sleep, I believe her.<br />Second, being Ta'veren does not cause only good or bad things, but things that are less probable otherwise, but balanced. So Mat didn't escape the tower and split the tower because he felt like.


created: 2001-11-06 12:26:44
subject: <b>Well thought out</b>
body:
That is a rather well thought out theory.  I don't know if I can add or detract from it.  I hate to see people flaming each other over well thought out theories, so all I have to say is, one again: Good Job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />First among Asha'man<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />Slayer of Shadowspawn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Chihuahuabrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 12:34:43
subject: <b>First of all</b>
body:
Gode? Who's Gode?<br /><br />Secondly, I seem to remember that the darkness behind Ishamael increased when he cried for help and he was actually quite pleased with the result.<br /><br />I don't know about this theory. There's a lot of speculation, but that can't be helped as we don't know what happens to souls after they die (other than heroes).<br /><br />I think the idea that the DO only has a certain amount od TP to give out due to the size of the bore is good.<br /><br />I don't think the soul's the DO captures give him power (he could just kill all those darkfriends he doesn't need if they did. I think his power is just something he has.<br /><br />Also, Rand wouldn't go to the DO or Creator or anyone when he dies, he goes to the Horn, he's a hero.


created: 2001-11-06 17:16:46
subject: <b>Gode is the darkfrinde from whitebridge,</b>
body:
that came to to 4 king town, you nok rand kill him with the power in &quot;4 kings in the shedow&quot; TEOTW.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 23:03:37
subject: <b>IN reference to Rand and the Horn...</b>
body:
Ok, nice theory first off, but to Three in a boat...I dont' imagine Rand goes to teh horn...did Lews Therin goto the horn?  He went to the creator to be reborn as rand.  We say this is the last battle, but indications show that it in reality may only be the last battle this time.  So, rand dies and goes back to the creator to be reborn as teh next dragon.  Anyway, just thought I'd say that piece.


created: 2001-11-07 15:04:59
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
I don't believe anyone who can channel can be connected to the horn.  There would be no way to keep them in TAR (since they could simply step out).


created: 2001-11-07 17:44:52
subject: <b>Uhem!</b>
body:
Rand is not a hero of the horn!... NO WAY<br />Rand, or should I say the Dragon, IS a hero of the horn. Remember at the end of tGH how chummy all of the heroes are with Rand? Hawkwing tells him how they've fought with or against eachother down throught the ages in thousands upon thousands of battles. When Rand says he must go back for Egwene, there are chuckles throughout the heroes and Birgitte jests with him, saying something to the affect of, &quot;You always did choose women that cause you trouble, Lews Therin.&quot; They then proceed to say that they need to follow the Dragon and his banner.  (There may be more proof. Three In A Boat will probably supply it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) This all gives a strong indication that the Dragon is a hero.  They all know him and have spent considerable time with him.  Since they are all spun out at various times, how could they know him so well unless they were hanging out together at the local TAR Tavern, recounting OLD times and waiting to see one of them vanish! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Then there is the guy that says that Heroes can't channel because they could esacpe TAR...<br />You know, it is possible that ANY of the heroes can leave if they wanted to. But remeber the precincts that Gaidal and Birgitte spoke of? There are laws that govern the actions of the bound heroes. Perhaps the Dragon can channel in TAR, and perhaps he cannot, but it harldy matters, seeing as how a person strong in the use of TAR is as strong as a channeling person.


created: 2001-11-07 18:19:05
subject: <b>how rude...</b>
body:
UHEM...that's just rude.<br /><br />Anyway, hawkwing's comment could have meant that the dragon was tied to the horn...COULD...not does.  If you recall, Ishamael says basically the same thing to Rand in the first three books in t'a'r.  I'm not saying your wrong, but I don't think you're necessarily right.<br /><br />But about rand channeling making him able to escape?  T'A'R has nothing to do with channeling, and I don't even want to try to supply proof...just read anything the wise ones say while egwene's with them...or Perrin...anyway, I'm not all up in your face about this, I just think that you're wrong.


created: 2001-11-08 07:14:32
subject: <b>Rand alTOR</b>
body:
covered the main points for the Dragon being tied to the horn. And honestly, if the Dragon isn't a hero I don't know who is.<br /><br />There is no reason to believe that the Dragon needs to be returned to the Creator to be reborn. The heroes who are attached to the horn are born when the pattern intends them to be just as any other soul is. However, unlike those other souls, the heroes wait in TAR for their rebirth and can be called to help. That's all, the Dragon will still be reborn whether he's attached to the horn or not.


created: 2001-11-09 13:20:21
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The Heroes seem to know a lot about everything once they are connected to the Horn. They lose most of their memories once they are spun out....This does not necesarily mean Rand or the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn. I actually believe the Dragon is the only Hero who is not made apart of the Horn ever. The comment by Artur Hawkwing I took to mean that the Horn had been used by the shadow before against the Dragon. <br /><br />I think of it like this, people in our world believe that when you die, assuming you go to Heaven, almost everything will be known to you, you will know which religion in our world is right, the secrets every human being is hiding in their head, every little event that is going on in the world, if there is other life out there, etc...At least this is what I believe will happen when you die and if you go to heaven. I think the same thing applies to Rand's world, though to a much lower level.Those who are attached to the Horn know who the Dragon is, the Forsaken, etc... Were Forsaken around during there time? Yes there were stories, but they were trapped during a lot of those hero's times and they were definitely not tied to the Horn, yet Birgitte seemed to recognized Moghedien and know who she was, as all the heroes seem to know all the Forsaken. Just a point I'd like you all to consider. I just think certain Knowledges come with being...dead.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not easy.&quot; - Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 14:06:38
subject: <b>Argggg!</b>
body:
The heroes are not all knowing. They merely have tons of knowledge from all of their former lives. (Kind of like Matt only much,much more so) In tFoH, Nynaeve asks Birgitte (when she is still in TAR) if she knows anything about the split in the tower and Birgitte says she knows nothing of the waking world. Birgitte is the ONLY one that we have seen who knows the forsaken and how they look. The reason for this is that one of her lives was during the war of power. So, in conclusion, the heroes only have knowledge of their former lives and are not omniscient. The only way Hawkwing could have known Lews Therin is if they hung out together in tel'aran'rhiod.<br />Thank You


created: 2001-11-12 16:13:38
subject: <b>The TAR pub...</b>
body:
What strikes me as odd would be the question:<br />Isn't Lews Therin mad?<br />Everytime we hear from him he's stark raving mad...<br />Wouldn't the others tire in 3000 years for his never ending Ilyena!<br />And from where comes their shapes?<br />We know any soul can be added to those already in the wheel <br />for deeds of great valor (ie. the Sniffer would be a likely candidate)<br />So Hawkwing was added for his accoplishments...?<br />By that time the Dragon was 2000 years dead...<br />Anyways I'm just curious for any imput on this matter...


created: 2001-11-14 22:52:30
subject: <b>Re: Aarggg</b>
body:
Perhaps Hawking knew Kinslayer from a previous life?  nothing points to the fact that he couldn't.  I'm really not disputing this whole dragon in the horn thing, in fact, I may post a theory about it...it could be really interesting if Rand dies and matt brings him back with all the other heroes for Tarmon Gai'don...anyway.


created: 2008-05-11 16:25:35
subject: <b>Dragon and the Horn</b>
body:
Well, I would guess he didn't hang around the other Heroes this tiem, since hes stark mad from the pain and loss of his love, and the realisation he did it.<br /><br />I will still maintain that LTTs Madness is not the one from the Taint, but due to the Massive psycholgical trauma of what the Taint drove him to do.


created: 2001-11-08 03:26:55
subject: <b>Ummmm Yeah...........</b>
body:
Arn't the hero's of the horn kinda different from other people???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 07:23:56
subject: <b>Birgitte's</b>
body:
memories are indeed fading. I think it says so somewhere around the time when Mat is arguing with the seafolk about the gholam.<br /><br />Birgitte returned as her original form? I don't think so. Birgitte (actually called Birgitte) fought in the AoL didn't she? That's why Moghedien hates her isn't it? Also, stories are still told of Birgitte Silverbow, yet we know from her memories she has had a LOT of past lives, the stories wouldn't have survived so intact over so many Ages, that's one of the main points of Jordan's series. I believe that when the heroes appear in TAR they look like their last incarnation, which is why the heroes all talked to Rand as LTT. When Rand dies and goes to TAR (leaving aside the dabate of whether he is attached to it or not for now), I believe he will appear as Rand and that is what the others will call him (as they get to know him), but he will have all the memories of his past soul's past lives, including LTT right back to the first Dragon (if there can be such a thing) in his head.


created: 2001-11-08 08:57:41
subject: <b>Ack!</b>
body:
Thanks Three.  I didn't think about that while on my little rambling episode.  So Rand would be himself when he died. ::nod nod::  The only difference would be that he would remember all his past lives, which would actually be kind of cool.  Thanks for the reprisal.


created: 2001-11-08 09:55:41
subject: <b>Doesn't it say</b>
body:
that Birgitte's memories of her other lives are fading, not the memory that she, herself is Birgitte Silverbow, a hero of The Horn of Valere? Three, I'm just wondering, (honestly, no harm) do you mean to say that Birgitte's last incarnation was Birgitte herself?  She was never spun out as a new incarnation between the AoL and her eventual removal from TAR?  You said they appear in TAR as their last incarnation.  I was under the impression it was the Horn itself that kept her as the Birgitte Silverbow in TAR.  I think she says as much to Perrin in book 4 doesn't she?  I don't remember.  And don't the heroes (Hawkwing specifically) refer to Rand as LTT in Falme, outside of TAR, after the Horn is sounded?  I don't recall him being addressed so by any heroe in TAR.<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 12:47:56
subject:
<b>Birgitte is not the last incarnation of Birgitte (with proof <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )</b>

body:
Moghedien had a thought about Birgitte where she tinks that Birgitte foiled her plans against LTT once, but that she wasn't named Birgitte then but Teadra (I think).  <br /><br />A number of points can be drawn from this.  First of all Moggy knows about the heros of the horn living in T'A'R and that Birgitte is one of them.  Secondly because she thinks of the hero/soul as being Birgitte and not Teadra this implies that Moggy was aware of the legend (or identity) of Birgitte in the AoL.<br /><br />Therefore the Birgitte incarnation of Birgitte (lost yet?) happened before or during the AoL.  Other incarnations followed including Teadra and others up to sometime before the borderlands formed.  It say specifically in WH that Birgitte has no memories, in WH, before the formation of the WT (2000 y ago?).  Therefore Birgitte's last incarnation was sometime between the formation of the WT and the creation of the modern borderlands.  (A problem with this is that stones from a fireplace that is about as old as the WT comes from Kandor).  <br /><br />In any case Birgitte is not the last incarnation of Birgitte.  (So Birgitte probably doesn't have any memories of Birgitte's life anymore <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> . )  It is problably her last major incarnation.  Besides, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that while in T'A'R the heros can take any shape they choose.  Even if they can't their memories are most likely from their most recent incarnations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 13:09:09
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
I see what your saying.  Could you clarify one thing?  You said that Birgitte was not the last incarnation of Birgitte.  But then you said, &quot;It is probably her last major incarnation.&quot;  Are you speaking of the present, and is major the operative word?  Oh, and I love your signature quotes!  Esp. b/w the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />s.  I laughed heartily!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 13:19:59
subject: <b>LTT, Rand not tied to horn</b>
body:
I still don't believe that a person who can channel can be tied to the horn.  We know that there are Aes Sedai who were heros, but there has never ever been mention of a hero of the horn who could channel...ever.


created: 2001-11-08 14:35:46
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
This one requires some research. I will have to glance through my books tonight, see what I can find. Perhaps Birgitte has been born since the AoL (though I doubt it). Perhaps the only reason that she is being called Birgitte is because when Nynaeve(?) first saw her in TAR, that's who she thought she was and as Birgitte had been called that in the past, she didn't correct her (ie. her form is of this Teadra, but she has accepted the name Birgitte as it is one of her names). Perhaps it is the most dominant of the personalities that are present foremost in TAR from all the past lives, which would mean either Rand (if he could be more dominant than LTT) or LTT would emerge if pulled out.<br /><br />One thing to question is, if it goes back to the earliest life of that soul, why was is it LTT is the one? We know there have been Dragons before him, it's just the way the wheel works.


created: 2001-11-08 17:46:26
subject: <b>'You would know me as Birgitte'</b>
body:
I'm not sure who she said this to, but I got the impression that Birgitte was only one of her names (not her first, probably not her last) but it was the one that she thought everyone else in present day westlands* would recognise.<br /><br />* Does anyone else think that 'westlands' is the lamest world-name you've ever heard?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 23:52:38
subject: <b>Names and souls</b>
body:
Does anyone else find it weird that the Heroes *did* address Rand as LTT?  That implies that they see, not the actual *person* (because Rand looks nothing like LTT, at least not the LTT he 'sees' in his head), but the person's soul (i.e., the part of them that is reborn over and over).  <br />Along with that, we know that people can appear in T'A'R looking pretty much whatever way they want, for however long they want (assuming they're skilled enough to hold the image in their minds).  <br />I *did* have a point that made this relevant...<br />Oh. Yes.  Birgitte, when she's first seen in T'A'R, looks *exactly* like Birgitte from the legends; this is how Nynaeve, etc. can recognize her as Birgitte.  If she's a Hero, she must've had other important incarnations, but she chooses to appear as Birgitte.  There must be a reason for that (or maybe she doesn't choose at all; maybe the Horn chooses *for* her; either way, it's essentially the same question). So either Birgitte is her first incarnation (the first would be the one who gained everlasting fame by becoming a Hero anyway) or she is... Hmm. I don't really know, since the arguments against her being the most recent incarnation are pretty convincing. I'll just let everyone else figure it out. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-11-09 07:52:09
subject: <b>How do you know</b>
body:
that they would be in TAR as how they were first put in there? It seems to me they  are all their last incarnation; Hawkwinge and Birgitte at least...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 21:05:16
subject: <b>ltt</b>
body:
notice all the hunter could not channel. i think they called him ltt because they didnt learn rand's name yet, and ltt was the last one to use them in the age before.<br /><br />~ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Soadist


created: 2001-11-12 20:07:53
subject: <b>Okay, Im somewhat convinced</b>
body:
that those bound to the wheel appear in the present as what ever incarnation they were last.  I was rather skeptical until I reread The Great Hunt chapt.47 pg 661 when Mat blows the horn and the heros come forth.  Arthur Hawkwing says &quot;I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more.&quot;  Also Birgette says &quot;You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin.&quot;  Arthur Hawkwing in life never met Lew Therin, his time was long after the AoL.  So he must have fought along LLT's soul many times before that.  And Birgette speeks to LLT as if they were old friends.  So it is now my belief that the souls bound to the wheel for some reason, appear as the they're last incarnations and they also see each other as such, seeing as they named Rand, Lews Therin.  Well thats that.


created: 2001-11-15 17:31:49
subject: <b>Birgitte has had many recent lives!</b>
body:
when birgitte gets matt drunk they start to talk in an the Old tounge that is not spoken any more, and has not been spoken for over a thousand years.  when matt makes her watch over nayneve and elane( sorry about spelling) she responds with another custum from another country, again that has not existed for a very long time.  Matt has no memory about or before the AOL and his last end around Hawkwing's time.  and yet Birgitte can talk to him and speak of customs not remembered anymore.<br /><br />Cai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> People get dummer the more of them there is in a group.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> I hope to one day find the formula for this strange and bizzare event <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-17 00:05:42
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
What if the Horn is nothing more than a ter'angreal type of object created during/right before/right after AoL?  So in other words the souls are tied to the wheel but the horn this is relatively recent.  Then may be the people stay at the first tie in to the horn as in when the horn was first made since, legends before that are myths, and before that is forgotten...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I can Stop Bulletts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />And Break The Sword That is Not a Sword <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />If a Sword is not a Sword that why use it? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-17 04:44:26
subject: <b>Fading memories</b>
body:
The oldest of birgittes past lives memories are the ones fading.  When she was in t'a'r she described that the most recent lives are the most vivid and the oldest as almost dream quality and lives in past ages not even able to be remembered.  In the real world of course she is losing all but the most recent.  when rand dies he will be mostly rand with alot of lews throw in and a bit less of whoever he was before and a bit lesser of the life before that, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 22:27:54
subject: <b>something you missed</b>
body:
just to touch up something you said.  <br />       you have forgotten that when matt blows the horn of valere they meet arthur hawking.  if it was the original &quot;soul&quot; then it would not be hawking, but someone from 'wayyyyyyyyy back.'  so if rand dies and is called out by the horn (assuming he is attached to the horn blowing) the physical guise of the dragon could very well be rand's.  his memories would simply be of all the lives he has led.<br />brian


created: 2002-08-09 17:57:03
subject: <b>bridgett?</b>
body:
Is there not more than one way to be bound to the WOT?<br />If this is true, their could have been many ways Bridgett was bound to it in the past. She could have existed under other names, bound to the wheel different ways, but in one of her &quot;lives&quot; , that which she was bound to the horn, was not the original that made her bound to the wheel. She could have existed bound to the wheel under other names, but her most recent that secured her to the wheel was the horn, that initial name being &quot;Bridgett&quot; made her soul that in TAR, even if she was another before in TAR.<br /><br />im sorry if this is not understood, im not good with words and i often repeat myself:<br />Bridgett could have been bound FIRST as someone else, not to the horn though, then became bound to the horn... under bridgett, thus soul bein bridgett with other names/memories of her from others, before her life as bridgett<br /><br />ps, it talks in the books about her lives' memories fading, but it also says that she had the same attitude/personality in each life, thus she may have forgotten even her original life (which rj doesnt say she remembers it) but remember her essence of being because it is alway the same. her being called bridgett could also be just one of her names that she liked the most (or the thought behind how she got the name bridgett silverbor) so she chose that to be her everpresent name. and as the memory fades, that continues to be present for the strong feelint. you see there are many possibilities to this.


created: 2002-08-09 18:52:15
subject: <b>i forgot...</b>
body:
added to my coment...<br /><br />it NEVER says the only creatures in the alt world are the grolm.<br /><br />it just happens that the only ones the see are.<br /><br />there could even be humans there, under ground, in hiding, highly knowledgeable and thus living in supreme locations (noth those particular planes) on on another continent.<br /><br />if the seanchan overtook that world, they could have realized their home is much more suitable and just stayed there (just ideas, not that i agree with them)<br /><br />also, with the comment about the past aes sedai, does it say the went to other worlds or just places. the beasts could have just been from some remote place they hadnt found on the island, like how on earth, you can only find certain species in certain places (ignoring things like importing by humans and such)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />evil rules all!!!! screw all you sissys and your non pvp servers. your just scared of our POWER MWAHAHAH


created: 2002-08-09 19:01:25
subject: <b>BTW</b>
body:
and if the original soul is not hawkwing... lets go back to what i said.<br /><br />regarding recent events, the heros of the past, the leader or whatever used to be could have very well in one of these weavings been nocked out of their rank by hawkwing when he got his place. it says the patterns ma change and if matt was ripped out of the fabric like bridgett was, the would someone not have to replace him as the blower of the horn in weaves to come? whos to say the wheel doesnt weave heros OUT of the pattern as well as in. (same concept with bridgett...)<br /><br />just throwing this in, why could the wheel not have forseen something happening like bridgett being ripped out and already replaced her with a respective significant or rewoven (or will re-weave if it hasnt started yet) her in through a NEW deed that she does in this age...<br />... and we are brought back to the theory bridgett coud have been woven as many different ORIGINAL souls, woven in as a different role and/or taking the name of the perferred past life she had, may still have soul of previous person (could also be the instance with hawkwing)<br /><br /><br /><br />if you want to send me emails or give me new or forgotten facts, i will see it first (if at all) at<br />eiryyl@hotmail.com


created: 2002-09-04 09:32:53
subject: <b>Don't know what I am talking about</b>
body:
I do not believe the Dragon is tied to the Wheel like the other Heroes. He probrably goes and lives with the Creator after all is done or maybe becomes the seal over the DO's prison. Just my belief.<br />Ron<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Ron T. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The real world as in dreams, nothing is quite what it seems.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;There can be only one.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 17:32:56
subject: <b>I disagree entirely</b>
body:
When the Heros die (i.e. when Birgette Silverbow died) they go into TAR as who they were last.  So if Rand dies he would be Rand in TAR because that is who he was last.  It doesn't really matter who they were before, all that does is give them memories. I just finished reading the part where Birgette is ripped out so yeah I think I would remember that much<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Ghost rules.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-21 17:29:25
subject: <b>He couldn't be</b>
body:
According to Ishy, the battle between DO &amp; LTT has gone on countless times in the past, but the Last Battle is coming. Lets think about this. I agree that Rand is tied to the wheel, but this is his last incarnation. This is the battle that will decide the fate of Randland forever. Either the Dark One is caged, and remains so (unless he is broken out again) or he is free, until the End of Time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Cuddler of the Real Source</b><br /><br /><font color="Gold">And the Angel Gabriel said unto him, &quot;Henceforth the plural of walrus shall be walri. Go forth ye, and spread His glorious word of walri!&quot; And so he did, and the Lord was pleased.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-13 02:27:30
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Whay is everyone having trouble with this concept?<br /><br />Birgitte Silverbow was a hero from the Trolloc Wars (If I remember correctly), as was Gaidal Cain. That was her most recent incarnation.<br /><br />At the end of the Age of Legends, she was Tealdra, and Moghedien hated her as Tealdra. Moghedien found Birgitte in T'A'R, where she recognised the soul as Tealdra.<br /><br />Alternately, Birgitte may have been Tealdra when she was called by the horn in the AoL, but I prefer the first idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 22:47:12
subject: <b>Breaker of Bonds</b>
body:
Rand is called the &quot;Breaker of Bonds&quot; in the Prophecies of the Dragon.  As the Cuellindar seals represent 'bonds' for the DO, I think it reasonable to think Rand is tied to them.<br /><br />And, my memory fails me, but wasn't there some comment way back when (by Ishamael, perhaps) about having to free the DO?  To break the cycle, or re-establish it, or whatever, he may have to free him to reseal. The Bore is an imperfect seal.<br /><br />Btw, he's also called the &quot;Forger of Chains&quot;<br /><br />The last thing to consider, maybe, is that why are we reading about Rand? What's implicit is that he's different from all other Dragons Reborn. It seems that LTT reacts to him in a new way, that even the Forsaken (and certainly Ishamael) do. He's going to do things differently.<br /><br />Interesting theory. Not sure if you're right, but you've scratched the surface of something good.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-07 23:16:02
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I think I'll side with Raserei on this one. Good thinking though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 01:12:28
subject: <b>prophecy??</b>
body:
i don't know if the seals breaking are linked to prophecy<br />or not but clearly the seals must be broken not fixed or<br />replaced etc because when the 2nd age comes again the bore<br />will not exist.<br /><br />herid fel said something about this to rand when he asked <br />about sealing the bore.something like he'd have to rebuild<br />the DO prison like there never was a bore so it could be drilled again when that age came to pass again.


created: 2001-11-08 07:30:30
subject: <b>Was it?</b>
body:
I didn't think the Eye of the World was part of the prophecies. It may well be as we haven't been shown all of the prophecies, but from what we have been shown, was the EotW mentioned (or hinted at)?<br /><br />What do you mean LTT is reacting in a different way to Rand than to previous Dragons? Firstly, I doubt LTT has spoken (I use the term loosely) to any Dragons other than Rand and the one who came before LTT. Secondly, even if he had reacted to lots of other Dragons, how would you know how he got on with them? Where in the books is there an example of this?


created: 2001-11-08 15:00:08
subject: <b>The one power</b>
body:
can't have anything to do with it, because at Rhuidean the seal where whole after Rand and Asmodean channeled enough off the one power to break the world (or close to it).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can anyone show me the sa'sara? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 16:32:01
subject: <b>Breaking of the Seals</b>
body:
I don't the the poster of this theory ever meant to imply that the breaking of the seals was a victory for the Light.  It seems to me that the seals are breaking in reaction to Rand's victories.  Like they are trying to keep the balance--the Light wins one, then the Dark wins one.  <br /><br />I thijnk it's a good theory, that every major step along the Dragon's path that Rand takes ends up in another broken seal.  This means that both actions are bringing the final confrontation closer and closer.


created: 2001-11-09 02:56:02
subject: <b>re to Toberane</b>
body:
You hit the nail right on its head. That is exactly what I was trying to get across. Thanks for clarifying to those that didn't get it.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-09 13:05:29
subject: <b>Strange</b>
body:
I had a similar theory and I would also like to add to some of the points he showed. <br /><br />Has anyone wondered why the hell Ishmael allows Rand to live? I personally believe, especially after re-reading the first two books that Ishmael could have killed Rand at any time. There was more to turning him to the Dark then just turning him to the Dark. Kill him and it is done with. I think for some reason he has to be alive for the Seals to be broken. Ishmael was just playing with him. Perhaps he was even helping the Prophecy. Think about Ishmael in the beginning to Mordin (Who is Ishmael reincarnated.) How'd he go from Raving loony to a guy who is Naeblis and seems to play behind the scenes and control everything. I think some of that was insanity and some of it was just play. He is moving Rand more than anyone gives him credit. I think he needs Rand alive for the seals to be broken on the Dark One's prison. Rand in my opinion is definitely linked to the seals in some way. I am not sure if each victory for the light brings a balance by creating a victory for the Dark (The breaking of the seals), but I do believe that is why Rand has been keep alive for so long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not easy.&quot; - Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 11:08:59
subject: <b>Oh, I see...</b>
body:
Actually, the Dark DO consider it a victory... that doesn't make it so, however.  Think of it this way... the seals are a butterfly bandage over a deep wound that you hastily put on it to stop the hemmoraging.  A doctor is going to need to take it off, cleanse any infection (like the DO) and STITCH the wound (helping the wound to permenantly, and naturally, heal itself) in order to effectively keep it from breaking open again.  It's also like resetting a broken bone that has healed improperly.  Got to break it first, to set it properly (using BOTH halves of the OP)


created: 2001-11-16 17:01:45
subject: <b>The breaking of the seals signaled a place where Rand lost control.</b>
body:
This idea was hinted at by Moiraine (I think) at some point.  When Rand was completely in control of <i>saidin</i>, no seals broke.  When he just did things without really knowing what the heck he was doing, the seals in the vicinity crumbled like dry bread.<br /><br />At the Eye of the World, Rand had no clue what he was doing, and was also channeling a LOT more than he was strictly ready to handle at that point.  The seal at the Eye of the World was found in pieces.<br /><br />At Falme, both seals were found in pieces.  In addition, Rand didn't really know what the heck he was doing when confronting Ba'alzamon and determining the course of the battle below.<br /><br />At the Stone, Rand was able to maintain control, despite using <i>Callandor</i> and despite almost frying himself.  Since he maintained control, he didn't accidentally destroy a seal.<br /><br />At Tanchico, the seal was found whole.  Rand was not there, so it was fine.  It broke because Nynaeve and Elayne mishandled it.  <i>NOTE:  I realize this is a BS explanation, but I had to explain that one away somehow...).</i><br /><br />In Rhuidean, Rand was able to maintain control of <i>saidin</i>, however precariously.  The seal was correspondingly whole.<br /><br />The one Mazrim Taim found might have bit the dust if Rand hadn't been saved from his lack of control by Bashere.<br /><br />In other words, any time a seal breaks after a major event, it happened because Rand lost control of what he was doing, and let his unconscious mind channel for him (or perhaps Lews Therin was doing it--that would explain the &quot;break it&quot; commands LTT issues to Rand in front of Taim).  When Rand consciously knew what he was doing, the seals were fine.<br /><br />I propose that Rand inadvertantly broke the seals that broke after major events.  Either that, or Lews Therin was controlling the flows, and as we know already Lews Therin desperately wants to break all the seals.<br /><br />Just a few thoughts.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 19:02:10
subject: <b>Hey Kaiser Karl...</b>
body:
Hey man, you ought to do a little extra research and revision and post your last blackboard thing as a theory.  I don't know what the others think, but I feel you've said something I haven't heard of or thought of before.  Try to clean it up and submit it...I bet it gets posted.<br /><br />Good job to the poster of this theory, by the way, good job!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' on that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-27 21:55:14
subject: <b>i like this theory</b>
body:
before i start, i posted a theory on the seals that i think nobody liked but was in definite sync with this.  obviously, the sealing was imperfect.  LTT only used saidin, but what was used to &quot;dig&quot; the bore was both saidin and saidar (lanfear and beidomon).  akin to digging a hole.  the only way to seal it up entirely is to use the dirt you took out in the first place.  in this case, that is saidin AND saidar. therefore, rand will used ashaman and aes sedai to seal the bore for good.  Egwene had a dream where rand was crunching the seals underfoot.  i took this to mean that was rand's actions and the seals response to them.  after cleansing saidin, i had proposed that ALL the remaining seals would be found broken.  only then could the bore be healed completely.


created: 2001-11-08 20:31:25
subject: <b>Neither Moirane or Lanfear...</b>
body:
....but Graendal. This has been covered pretty well elsewhere.<br /><br />Actually, Graendal's become my favorite Forsaken. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Everyone understimates her, yet she's never been threatened, never been exposed...<br /><br />She's slowly building up a strong base, and not moving too quickly.<br /><br />The chick's got style!


created: 2001-11-09 07:43:25
subject: <b>Lanfear did it...</b>
body:
first of all, there is no reason whatsoever why Moiraine should do it... she knew and... if not exactly approved...accepted...<br />Lanfear did it.<br />Graendal did not do it... there is no evidence, not even any suggestions or REASONS why Graendal should do it. Besides Asmodeans reaction would have been different if Graendal had been the one... however, it fits Lanfear perfectly...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 08:36:18
subject: <b>Not Lanfear</b>
body:
We have no evidence that Lanfear was even alive at this point in the books. We later learn that she's been spun out in a new body (Cyndane) so she surely must have been killed in the doorway.<br /><br />Graendal is the only one of the remaining Forsaken who we have not witnessed being told that Asmodean was dead, but she still knew. That seems to point a finger at her.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-09 08:49:20
subject: <b>Personally</b>
body:
I believe it was Graendal too, but there are plenty of debates on that.<br /><br />I just thought I'd say that in point 2 where you say Moiraine knew who he was disguised as...Asmodeon was never disguised, he went along as himself, safe in the knowledge that no one could recognise him (although it was a bit risky as he didn't know how much Rand knew from LTT, unless LTT and Asmodeon never met). So it's not like Moiraine had any advantage over the Forsaken of knowing that person was actually Asmodeon.<br /><br />I don't think Moiraine would kill him anyway, why would she? I certainly don't think she would waste one of her three requests on it.


created: 2001-11-09 12:13:58
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Moiraine knew Rand had to learn and wouldn't take his teacher from him.<br /><br />The thing that gets me about Moiraine and the Forsaken is that she has recognized some of them before. Remember she said to Perrin, Loial, and Lan that Sammael was in Illian (book 3). How does she know what they look like?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-09 14:41:58
subject: <b>I wondered</b>
body:
I pondered that same question myself. How did Moiraine know that it was Sammael in Illian?<br /><br />Well, we know that, because of her line of work in searching for the Dragon, she has done tons of research on him and the time period of his former life. She says early in the series that precious little is known about Lanfear except that she was very powerful and loved Lews Therin. This leads me to believe that she researched all of the Forsaken and that there must have been descriptions or even drawings of them that she has studied. That has to be the way she knew it was Sammael.


created: 2001-11-09 16:46:11
subject: <b>in defense</b>
body:
but even if she knew that Rand had to have a teacher...would Moiraine have felt safe leaving him so close to asmodean without her there to eavesdrop on him?  I think that that could very well be what one of her wishes would be...she saw a lot in rhuiden...a lot...we have nothing to say she saw something bad happening qwith asmodean betraying rand...but she could have very well have.  it's just not like moiraine to leave rand in the hands of asmodean knowing she was going to be &quot;going away&quot; even if he was the only way to teach Rand.  She has said it before she would rather destroy Rand then allow the shadow to take him.


created: 2001-11-10 10:06:49
subject: <b>Hold Up! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Re: that letter she sent Rand...<br />Why would she have told him to be carful of Asmodean if she'd killed or was planning on killing him? She wouldn't have needed to! She'd know that he'd be dead so Rand wouldn't have to be warned about him!<br /><br />I'll just have to RAFO on this one...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 12:45:08
subject: <b>Can we finally put this to rest????</b>
body:
Robert Jordan said in an online chat that Graendel killed Asmodean!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watching Firefly DVDs repeatedly...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 12:47:15
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Good theory.  I tend to like it as an answer to &quot;who killed Asmo&quot;.  The author makes a good point about Mo-raine maybe seeing some sort of betrayal from Asmo down the road and needs to take him out. RJ plays up the aspect of Asmo being someone you &quot;can not trust&quot; or someone who will turn on you when your back is turned.  Nice job.<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-11-10 16:15:54
subject: <b>Read the letter again</b>
body:
...Moiraine tells Rand that she knows nothing of what happens in the world after that day. Even if you factor in that 'one thing' it doesn't equate.<br /><br />   All the destinies that she saw leading up that day came down to the docks. So when she went through the doorway all she saw was her future after entering the land of the Aelfinn.<br /><br />   There wasn't anything to see about Asmodean betraying Rand or not. In the other instances Rand either died or was turned by Lanfear. Either way Asmos loyalty (or lack there of) wasn't at issue in those worlds. <br /><br />   If Moiraine had decided to use one of the three favors to kill Asmodean then she'd have seen that as a possibility in the rings of Rhuidean. If that was the case then why wouldn't she just kill Asmo before she was ready to face Lanfear? That way she'd have an extra request to ask for from the Finns.<br /><br />   Another question is how she'd have the body was disposed of. We know that there wasn't a coprse to find because Rand thought that Asmo had disappeared. If the killer had left the body it's have been found. If Moiraine had done it don't you think she'd have left a body behind so that Rand knew Asmo was dead, rather than worry about him being out there plotting his next move.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 21:50:44
subject: <b>Wait...</b>
body:
But I thought RJ said via chatlink with CNN that Greandal did it...or rather, someone asked y no one got that Graendal did it and he was like &quot;I don't know, it was obvious to me.&quot;  It could have been sarcastic, it's hard to tell in chat's, or it could have been classic RJ, trying to throw us off track.  But that's just what I thought....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Katiya<br />*Life-Time Supply Available Upon Request*</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 08:18:15
subject: <b>RJ posting?</b>
body:
I've never heard of RJ revealing who the killer was. When was this posting?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-12 13:15:03
subject: <b>NOOOOO</b>
body:
Robert Jordan never admitted in an online chat that Graendal killed Asmodean.  <br />Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him. <br /><br />Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me. <br /><br />He never says that &quot;Graendal killed Asmodean&quot;<br />I do not support the Moraine killed Asmodean theory though, because Asmodean probably wouldn't have said &quot;No, not you!&quot; when he hadn't been keeping in a whole bunch of contact with her.  Of course, i could have missed something<br />


created: 2001-11-12 16:18:44
subject: <b>Let's look at this logically</b>
body:
IMO, Asmo would not have said &quot;You? No!&quot; unless a) it was someone he was very afraid of, b) someone he was not really familiar with, and c) someone he doesn't really suspect..  If it had been Graendal or Lanfear (or any other Forsaken, for that matter) I think he would have said their name. <br />I'm just about to reread the book again, and I'll keep my eyes peeled for clues.  Personally I think that if Moiraine did ask for Asmo to be killed, the Finns would have gone and killed him THEMSELVES.  If Asmo recognized them, perhaps it was from helping to put together the ter'angreal in the AoL  As to fearing them . . . I'm not sure.  Their powers are certainly not fully understood.  Here's something:  what if they're all immune to the Power like Mat's foxhead thingy?  That would probably have shaken up the AoL people millenia ago, and Asmo would of ourse fear them proportionally. <br />But all in all, I'm still undecided. As I said, I'm about to reread it so I'll be on the lookout.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 17:46:06
subject: <b>Asmo was a musician</b>
body:
Asmodean was a musician in the Age of Legends, so he would have nothing to do with the construction of the twisted doorways.<br /><br />As for &quot;You? No!&quot;, he also would have said that for someone he wasn't expecting to see in Caemlyn, ie anyone except Rahvin. The only ones who would strike fear into Asmodean would be a forsaken, and the only living Forsaken that admits Asmodean to be dead is Graendal.<br /><br />As for why he didn't say her name: it wouldn't be a very fun mystery if he had, now would it?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-28 12:28:06
subject: <b>Moiraine left Asmo with Rand because...</b>
body:
...she knew once Rand was done learning everything he could that he would find some way to get rid of him.  But, even more likely, she had to know that the Forsaken would eventually figure out where he was and kill him themselves.  Which, incidentally, is exactly what happened.  As for the &quot;other small matter of no consequence to you,&quot; I always took to be keeping the promise she made to Thom.  In the Stone she promised him the names of the Reds who gentled Owyn.  As I recall, she still had not done that when the time to kill off Lanfear came around, so she had to leave Thom a letter too.  I'm sorry I don't have my books handy so I can't say for sure, but that's what I always thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 13:58:24
subject: <b>Thinking too hard..</b>
body:
Alotta people are assuming that Moiraine would have to have seen what she was supposed to ask for in the doorway, in Rhuidean, but why would she have had to, she could very well have simply seen one or two things in rhuidean and then used her last wish to return to randland, makes much more sense for Asmodean to scream 'You? No!' if it was Moiraine in there, when he's assuming that she's dead. <br /><br />Asmodean probably knows that lanfear and moiraine fought, so he very well may be terrifiied of Moiraine if he beleives that she can kill a chosen, like she killed lanfear, It makes alot of sense for Moiraine to remain hidden in the background watching over Rand while she's the most-wanted By the white tower there is right now. Rand was drawing away from her before she died, she might fear that if she reveals that she's there Rand will simply tell her to leave or something, better off meddling with rand in the background as she can, without anyone else knowing about her. <br /><br />If Asmodean bungled in on her while she was eavesdropping on rand in the pantry (What better hiding place? Nobody but cooks and serving people would go in there, and She might have had a disguise as one or the other. Asmodean has seen her before so he might have recognized her.) she may well have killed him to keep herself secret. <br /><br />As to the 'She wouldnt have killed Rand's teacher' He was pretty much done learning from Asmodean at that time. I know there was probably alot more that Asmodean could teach him but I think Rand was past the source-convulsion-death thingy, and I beleive that was all that moiraine really wanted asmodean to teach him, she killed him to limit his influence with Rand.<br /><br />Xane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-30 08:25:47
subject: <b>moraine, price to pay..</b>
body:
perhaps she did not kill asmodean, but what if, she got back out of the world by laying down her demands and if she had lanfear tethered and held, she offered lanfear to them as the price.. i mean that would make sense would it not?  She gets out home free with a load of sweet ass wishes granted and lanfear gets what she deserves..  (although i do like lanfear, i always wondered if she would switch sides)


created: 2003-05-30 06:28:31
subject: <b>I'm Not so Sure...</b>
body:
I'm not so sure Moiraine even managed to kill Lanfear.  In fact, if you think about her actions of setting up the doorway and the angreal, they seemed more like actions of setting up to trap Lanfear--trap, not kill, most likely because she expected that she could not overcome Lanfear.  The doorway was there to send them both to another dimension and the angreal was there to go haywire and set the door on fire so if she could not beat Lanfear, she could at least trap her.  And in Winter's Heart, Lanfear as Cyndane (there is so much proof that she is Lanfear), thinks to herself about Silvia (the freed damane) that she is stronger than her even before the Aelfinn had her; and apparently the Aelfinn are very dangerous (according to Birgitte in The Shadow Rising, Tower of Ghenjei chapter).  In fact, I believe that the gholam are much like the Aelfinn since they are both snake-like.  (I remember reading that the Aelfinn and the Elfinn resemble the game Snakes and Foxes).  So more likely the Aelfinn must have killed Lanfear.  As much as I hate to say it, Moiraine died in the ter'angreal.  Lan even felt her die.  One could argue that it was simply her leaving into another dimension so that Lan could not feel her, except for three reasons:<br />Moiraine was in the ter'angreal for some time before Lan felt her die.  He tried to charge, then said he couldn't feel her.<br />Moiraine had used a ter'angreal similar to it before in Tear.<br />Apparently the Tower of Ghenjei is in the World of Dreams, and later Aes Sedai use it freely without any mention of their Warders being affected.<br />Moreover, Moiraine could not have simply masked the bond, because Myrelle got it, it had to have been passed on.  And if she simply released the bond, then Myrelle could not have gotten Lan.  It is in my opinion that Moiraine is indeed dead.  But I hope deeply inside that she might come back as a hero of the Horn of Valere.  And even if she managed to live and make wishes to the Aelfinn, what price would she pay and why would she kill Rand's teacher, seeing the necessity of Rand needing a teacher?  She told him to be wary and said he will do well; she trusted Rand to take care of anything unusual himself.  It is more likely Graendal (or Semirhage) killed Asmodean.


created: 2003-05-30 11:47:07
subject: <b>Moiraine is dead...</b>
body:
If my memory serves me correctly, Ter'angreal much like the twisted doorways, dislike other angreal etc being used anywhere near them. <br /><br />In the test for the Accepted, we see the presence of Egwene's 'Tel'aran'rhiod' ter'angreal play havoc with the workings of the three arch-ways, and it's only in the same room.<br /><br />Having the angreal go through the twisted archway with Lanfear and Moiraine destroyed the ter'angreal, thus making it burst into flames, presumably killing Lanfear and Moiraine in the same instance.<br /><br />~~~~~~~~~<br /><br />However, in Winter's Heart, during the final battle, when we finally know for sure that Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated &quot;He had spurned her love, therefore spurned her&quot;, we are also told that <br /><br />&quot;The aelfinn held her&quot; [Lanfear]. That reads that Lanfear was not killed immediately, but was at some point, and some where, <br /><br />EITHER released later on by the aelfinn back into Randland, and THEN summoned to Shayol Ghul and re-incarnated/changed name etc. (Which, before someone picks me up on, they CAN change her name, because either Shaidar Haran or Moridin (can't remember which) tells Moghedian she COULD keep her name!)<br /><br />OR killed/died with the Aelfinn (judging that time, and space take on different meanings, it may be possible that Lanfear's immortality is not quite that... She could have died of old age, if Moiraine of the Aelfinn didn't kill her)<br /><br />So basically, in my opinion, neither Lanfear or Moiraine actually died straight away, but the ter'angreal being destroyed trapped them in whatever other-world the aelfinn rule! <br /><br />Both could have been released, though we have no mention of Moiraine being released as herself, and surely we would know that, through her bond with Lan being restored?<br /><br />~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><br />Back to the original question, I don't believe that Moiraine had the possibility of Killing Asmodean, as she had only just gone through the ter'angreal to the aelfinn.<br /><br />It is also unlikely Lanfear that killed him for the same reason, and for the fact that she set up the weaving about Asmodean to keep him from channeling to much. (Is it possible that this weaving dissipitated with her death/removal from Randland??)<br /><br />It is possible that Graendal could have murdered Asmodean, but with no hints or suggestions that she was snooping around through Rahvin's possessions, there is no reason to believe that she was in camelyn. <br /><br />I believe that whoever murdered Asmodean KNEW he was there, because they were ready for him, but it could have been virtually ANY of the forsaken. Though, if Asmodean was murdered with either saidin or Saidar, Rand or Aviendar would have been aware of it, which brings me to believe that he was murdered with the True Power, thus making it EITHER Demandred or Moridin.<br /><br />What do you think??<br /><br /><br />Lizzi xxx


created: 2006-09-11 19:44:30
subject: <b>What angreal ?</b>
body:
Its not the braclet that Lanfear had becuase she clawed that away from her before they fell into the Ter'angreal. I think it is becuase a person is only allowed to enter the doorways once, and it would have been Moriane's sencodn time, asuming that she entered it.


created: 2001-11-09 14:22:23
subject: <b>The tension will certainly play a role</b>
body:
Good points.  The tension between Caemlyn and the two rivers will certainly play a role.  What role will it have though, I dont know.  What you say is true, although Perrin is more knowlegable than you give him credit for and Elayne is a better negotiater as well.  Perrin thoughts seem to suggest that he is fairly familiar with Elayne (although not best friends of course).  Plus his thoughts and actions indicate that he is very sensitive to the problems that red eagle flag can cause.  Elayne, spent enough time with Faile and Perrin to have suspicions about Faile's true identity as well.  If there is a way to keep it peaceful Perrin and Elayne will find it as long as circumstances or ta'veren doesn't interfere too much.  <br /><br />There are too many factors that you haven't mentioned that may play a role as well.  How does Morgase fit into this picture.  What happens to Morgase can have a large influence on the relationship between Perrin and Elayne.<br /><br />Then there is Elayne's relationship to Tam Al'Thor.  The fact that Elayne is bearing the grandchildren (not by blood but just as close) of a presumably prominent leader of the TR will have to have some affect (even though Elayne isn't the type to let personal feelings intefere with politics.)<br /><br />Much more speculative, but still possible, is that Cadsuane will take Rand to TR to heal.  How will that affect things if Elayne and Aviendha visit.  (Aviendha still has to get pregnant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .)  Then there is always the possibility that the TR will be needed to save Caemlyn.   If for instance Whitebridge is attacked.<br /><br />In summary,  I don't think there is enough information to suggest what the outcome, but you are very correct in saying that it is an important element and one that we should watch carefully.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 15:56:21
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
People tend to forget that Perrin, Mat, and Rand are taveren, and what that means.  I mean people in the books.  They should realize that it doesn't matter what they want.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 00:03:54
subject: <b>i'm not quite sure but...</b>
body:
wasn't Andor a province late Manetherin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;so exactly what sound does a goat make when you throw it out a window?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 12:09:38
subject: <b>I think....</b>
body:
I think the last Battle will happen in the last book, but like in Lord of the Rings they just didn't end it when the final battle happened. There is like three or four chapters after to tell what happens after, especially in the nation sense. Where the heroes go, etc...<br /><br />I think and I hope Jordan does the same thing. I don't think the last book is just going to be huge battle...over. I think we are going to see what Nations survive and what nations don't. We are going to see stuff like the strife between Elayne and Perrin settled. Learn what happens to all the characters. See who is dead and how those that survived react to those that had died. I expect to see a lot of stuff like that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not easy.&quot; - Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 17:46:17
subject: <b>Will Elayne even be around?</b>
body:
Nicola's Foretelling seems to indicate she will be sailing off into the sunset with Aviendha, Min, and Rand's not quite corpse.  I personally don't see it happening after all the time Jordan is spending on her quest for the crown, but I think the point has to be raised.


created: 2001-11-10 20:24:52
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
Perrin will be a King. I pretty sure he don't want to be ruled by Andor and neither do TR. Elayne can do bugger all about it at the moment. So Unless her situation changes dramaticaly, wont be able to for the near future. Now if they I have to wonder which side Rand will take. Elayne will problary yell about him being her Warder and Lover. But I would like to think if Rand did take sides he would take Perrin.


created: 2001-11-11 09:31:31
subject: <b>My view</b>
body:
Perrin will end up, more or less, with everything in the original boundary of Manetherin.<br /><br />Elayne will end up with Eastern Andor and Cairhien.<br /><br />Both will have more than they want on their hands, and Elayne will be too busy with TG to go to war with Perrin.<br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 14:54:05
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
the story is already complicated enough to add a battle between two of the main characters.  On top of that, they're sort of &quot;friends&quot;.  Its coming close enough to Tarmon Gaidin that it would take too long to progress a plot like that.  True the foundation for that plot string has been poured, it hasn't been developed at all.  With the armies on the edge of Caemlyn, I think Elayne has enough trouble with them as it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 18:16:12
subject: <b>No, don't think it's a (long-term) problem</b>
body:
I like the 'thinks' that go behind this theory, but Elayne is currently struggling to control more than the city of Caemlyn and her own estates. By the time she gets uppity enough to challenge Perrin about raising a kingdom to her West, the only reason anyone will take any notice of Elayne is because her hubby is TDR.<br />This is assuming that Berelain &amp; Galad between them rule the new Cairyene. Not just a loony theory, it goes back to the foretelling about Rand tying the East to the South &amp; the West to the North.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 19:50:21
subject: <b>Yeah, right</b>
body:
ok, now lets stop to think about this for a sec.  Elayne is a queen now, but first and foremost she is still a person.  She is still pretty much of a good guy(gal), and she understands the need for peace.  She wouldn't dare, and Perrin also has enough logic to not move in on her.  furthermore, lets remember the big chain of friends.  Elayne---who is essentially the #1 girlfriend of---Rand---Who is Perrin's biggest friend, not mentioning that he is essentially the commander of---Perrin.<br />Besides, that would be too havocish.


created: 2001-11-12 12:05:04
subject: <b>a joining?</b>
body:
i think since right now Elayne is in the need for more supportive houses she just might make Perrin a Lord and they might form togeter to secure Elayns claim to the throne. if you all remember that claim isn't all that secure right now and a push could cause a topel. but that is what i think say what you will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are never truly defeated untill you admit defeat.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />if i shall die today then dang life suxs<br />what no java???? runs it's the end of the world<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 15:27:54
subject: <b>A few thoughts...</b>
body:
First of all, I like the theory.<br /><br />But I think the problems between Perrin and Elayne will go away after Tenobia, Bashere and Faile are killed off (Hey! it could happen!).<br /><br />Theeeennnn... Perrin will lay claim to the throne in Saldea (word of Faile's marriage has probably reached the Saldean court by now), which could end up as a province or ally to Andor.<br /><br />There!!!  I said it and I won't take it back! :-)


created: 2001-11-12 16:28:17
subject: <b>Time constraints? What time constraints?</b>
body:
It's my opinion that there will be thirteen books in the series.  Think about it -- all kinds of importance laid on thirteen in the series itself, so thirteen's a good number for it.  That means we've got ANOTHER FOUR BOOKS to fill up.  Remember, in the course of the first four books we go from the Two Rivers to Rhuidean.  That's a lotta room.  There's not time/space constraints, IMHO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 21:18:28
subject: <b>Min's viewing............</b>
body:
of Elayne at Falme - red hot iron and an axe and it was way in the future and not pleasant. <br /><br />The red hot iron and an axe - the blacksmith and the axeman.<br /><br />I think Elayne will send a legion to the Two Rivers and Perrin will stand in their way. Where he does - Taren Ferry or the other side of Whitebridge will tell where the Manetheran borders begin.<br /><br />Remember also that Taim has recruited a large group of Two Rivers men. After the 'rent' Rand will divide these men between himself, Mat and Perrin.<br /><br />With these Ashaman Perrin can send the Andormen packing. Also using Morgase as a hostage will stay Elaynes hand.<br /><br />Hoping the Mounted Army are Nth Altarans that Mat heard about in Ebou Dar. Nth Altara is part of Manetheran.<br />


created: 2001-11-13 12:24:46
subject: <b>sigh</b>
body:
Elayne has no intention of letting the Two Rivers carry on by itself.That seemed clear to me after she visited it in <br />the dream world.<br /><br />Perrin believes that Elayne is prepared to accept that the raising of the Eagle of Manetheren means nothing.Like<br />Morgase she will not allow an act of rebellion to go unpunished.<br /><br />Perrin and Elayne have met in 2 time periods.After Falme and in the Stone.None of their meetings have we<br />witnessed and going by Perrin's PoV they only have a passing aquaintance with each other.They are not friends.<br />Elayne is not going to back down on the issue because she is Rand's lover/children's mother.She is too<br />independent to do so.<br /><br />Any assault onthe TwoRivers will start after Elayne has secured herposition in Caemlyn, and is free to send a <br />small army there.<br /><br />She will want the Two Rivers under the rule of Andor because she needs money to run in Andor.In WH this is an <br />issue she talks about and although it is partly resolved with the discovery of deposits on her land this may not be <br />enough.She would view the Two Rivers as a healthy source of revenue - when she visited it in the dream world she <br />described it as a prosperous town.<br /><br />The showdown between Elayne and Perrin will happen very soon I think.Perrin is not foolish enough to believe that <br />he and his ~3000 men (and maybe 1000 whitecloaks) can defeat the Shaido septs in battle.He is aware that the <br />Aiel who still support Rand consider the defeat of the Shaido to be a main priority and he will look for their support.<br />To get this he needs Rand to sanction it.In his search for Rand he will go Caemlyn.He may also go to Caemlyn to <br />look for aid from the Saldaeans - he knows how good a leader Davram Bashere is.This will bring him into conflict <br />with Elayne.<br /><br />In this scenario Perrin will be without Faile's aid and at a disadvantage but the pattern seems to be returning<br />Manetheren from the grave and his ta'verenness should see him through to argue another day.Unless...<br /><br />Maybe he will bring more than an Asha'man with him when he is looking for Rand.It would be surreal of him to <br />bring Lini, but possible he would bring Balwer who would inform Elayne that her mother is alive and put back any<br />confrontations between them until Morgase/Faile are rescued.This may give them some unity.But it will not prevent<br />Elayne from eventually trying to bring the Two Rivers back under her command.<br /><br />I do not believe that Perrin would want to accept the ttle of Lord from Andor and I doubt that Faile would be too <br />happy about it.Perrin certainly would not allow the bow men of the Two Rivers to become involved in a war of <br />succesion.<br /><br />On a final note:FAILE RULES


created: 2001-11-13 15:29:57
subject: <b>Perrin is not Basheres heir</b>
body:
Why does everyone assume that if Faile, Tenobia and Bashere died Perrin would be the heir to the throne of Saldea? Perrin is related to Tenobia by marriage only. If Faile dies he will have no claim what so ever. Instead, her younger brother (Meadin?) will be Basheres heir. <br />And since Min saw a Broken Crown in her viewing of Perrin, and Faile and the house of Bashere seams rather connected to that crown, Faile can not die just yet or there would be no Broken Crown in Perrins future..


created: 2001-11-14 11:02:05
subject: <b>Perrin shall be king</b>
body:
Perrin will one day be king of a lost Manetheren,  if he likes it or not. But they are a few reasons why Elayne will try to object.<br /><br />First off, Elayne wants to preserve the history of Andor, the country she loves so much.  Also, do not forget that the Mountains of Mist are a big reason for the strenght of Andor because of all the gold mines.  I don't think she would give that up easily. So there is a possibility of a confrontation between the two of them. But I don't think that will happen, here's why.<br /><br />First of all, I assume that one way or another Perrin will rescue Faile and Morgase. Don't forget that Elayne loves her mother as much as Andor itself. When he saves her mom's live, he will probably head back to Caemlyn with all his troups.  But he isn't the only one going to Caemlyn, in Winter's Heart, they are four armies heading that way.  <br /><br />Somehow, I think Perrin just might show up in the neck of time and save the day, he is taveren and that's his style. He probably will be able to accomplish this without any major fights. Perrin will gain Elayne's respect with this intervention, and they will become friends in a sort of way. Of course, this is just speculation, but there will a lot of people in the same place at the same time, and most of the forces of the light will be there by now. ( Assuming Mat has got to Caemlyn and Egwene holds the White Tower). Therefore, I believe they will reunite all the good forces and make way  their way to Shayol Ghul...<br /><br />After Tarmon Gaidon, Perrin will have gained such a reputation that he will probably come back to a Manetheren already reunited. Alliandre will give him Ghealdan and Elayne will submit the rest of Andor.  They will probably rebuild the old city of Manetheren with the help of the Ogier, but that is far-fetched...and of course isn't Rand supposed to break the world???<br /><br />Anyway, i liked the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mike Weir, Canadian golfer, world master!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 18:06:17
subject: <b>Ghealden</b>
body:
If Alliandre's buy's the big one, surely her lands revert to her liege lord by right.<br />Murandy?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beidomon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The prime duty of the physician is to amuse the patient until nature can cure them.&quot;<br /><br />Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 12:55:33
subject: <b>In response to thedrin</b>
body:
<b>Elayne has no intention of letting the Two Rivers carry on by itself. That seemed clear to me after she visited it in the dream world.<br /><br />(That?) Perrin believes that Elayne is prepared to accept that the raising of the Eagle of Manetheren means nothing. Like Morgase she will not allow an act of rebellion to go unpunished.</b><br /><br />Elayne will certainly want to deal with it.  The question is how and when.  She has a lot of higher priorities and a more than a few reasons to move delicately.<br /><br /><b>Perrin and Elayne have met in 2 time periods.  After Falme and in the Stone. None of their meetings have we witnessed and going by Perrin's PoV they only have a passing aquaintance with each other. They are not friends. Elayne is not going to back down on the issue because she is Rand's lover/children's mother. She is too independent to do so.</b><br /><br />I agree on all points.  I think that they are slightly more than passing acquantances, though.  Elayne won't back down.  I do think she will do everything in her power short of backing down to make sure that the disagreement is peaceful.<br /><br /><b>Any assault on the TwoRivers will start after Elayne has secured her position in Caemlyn, and is free to send a small army there.</b><br /><br />Exactly! Presumably this is a long time from now and anything can happen in the meantime.<br /><br /><b>She will want the Two Rivers under the rule of Andor because she needs money to run in Andor.In WH this is an issue she talks about and although it is partly resolved with the discovery of deposits on her land this may not be enough. She would view the Two Rivers as a healthy source of revenue - when she visited it in the dream world she described it as a prosperous town.</b><br /><br />Elayne won't attack because of money.  Caemlyn is also becoming more prosperous to the same degree.  The alum source provides a huge income as well.  She will attack because in her mind they have provoked civil war.<br /><br /><b>The showdown between Elayne and Perrin will happen very soon I think.</b> <br /><br />I don't think so.  Too many other things need doing not to mention TG.  You have a well thought out scenario, but there are too many other equally likely scenarios to hazard a guess as to which will actually happen.<br /><br /><b>I do not believe that Perrin would want to accept the title of Lord from Andor and I doubt that Faile would be too happy about it.  Perrin certainly would not allow the bow men of the Two Rivers to become involved in a war of succesion.</b><br /><br />I disagree with everything except the last point.  Perrin is loathe to have either the wolf or the red eagle banner up.  Given a choice between Lord of Andor and King of Manetheren he would choose to be a Lord.  Faile was the first to suggest that Perrin could be a Lord.  She will sympathize with Elayne's situation, given what her father did.  (That doesn't mean she won't resist Elayne if necessary of course.)<br /><br /><b>On a final note: FAILE RULES</b><br /><br />No argument here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 16:04:24
subject: <b>2 things</b>
body:
1: Perrin is undeniably king aemon reborn.  Of COURSE he's going to get manetheren! (btw poster of this theory: manetheran's sign is the red EAGLE, the red wolf is just perrin).<br /><br />2:faile might be a darkfriend.  in her PoV's everything good she has done, has been attributed to &quot;love makes you do things you shouldn't.&quot;<br /><br />So HA!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-03 19:42:20
subject: <b>Who Cares if Elayne doesn't like it?</b>
body:
Morgase has mentioned problems with just keeping a toehold near the mountains of Mist, and the fact that she wouldn't even have been able to control Baerlon except by intercepting their products in Andor.  The Two Rivers people don't take any crap (Gawyn spoke of this apparently well known trait in EotW).  Dain Bornhald described how they wouldn't break under Whitecloak occupation, and Perrin was really only the catalyst for their driving out the Whitecloaks and Trollocs.  He takes pains to mention all over the place in tSR that anything they did, they could have done themselves. All the Two Rivers characters (except Egwene, who sucks up to anyone who can teach her anything) have no use for nobility or titles.  Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve have all made disparaging comments or thoughts about nobles.  The exception seems to be Elayne, though both Mat and Perrin seem to think she has a bit of 'tude.  Nynaeve actually says that she's better at admitting her mistakes and a nice person (in LoC) for a Noble.  This suggests a kind of cultural lack of reverence for the whole institution.  Any respect they give nobles, seems to be an issue of manners for the TR people.  Rand kneels to Morgase as an armsman or soldier, rather than a petitioner (in tGH, Lan tells him to kneel before the Amyrlin on one knee-&quot;You're not a merchant caught giving short weight&quot;- and Rand suggests kneeling like the Queen's Guards did to Morgase.  Lan's reply, &quot;...do that.  That will give them something to think about...&quot;  Moiraine later points out that Lan taught Rand to appear as a Warder or Borderlander soldier, which implies a certain self respect and pride in the etiquette Rand used), and calls her by a more familiar mode of address than Tallanvor seems to think is appropriate.  He does not behave as a peasant hauled before a monarch to face trespassing charges, and he never grovels or even considers it.  When he reprimands Aviendha for beating Colavaere, he gives as a reason, that it might cause him trouble.  Nothing about respect for her position or anything like that.  Bottom line, Two Rivers people will likely only pay attention to Elayne's &quot;lawful&quot; rule as long as it's convenient.  If she tries to reconquer to TR, it would be a disaster for her, even leaving Rand out of it.  First of all, Andoran military organization consists of the &quot;armed mob&quot; table of organization.  The Two Rivers are trained in the use of the deadliest pre-gunpowder projectile weapon in the history of the world.  They have used catapults in battle, and faced charges of Trollocs and Myrdral (sp?), not to mention stood up to disciplined and organized veteran soldiers (Whitecloaks) who seem to be better organized and equipped than the Queen's Guard, not to mention used to operating in the field far from their base of operations.  If Gareth Bryne, an alleged Great Captain and top 5 general couldn't keep Baerlon in line with no military concerns since the Aiel War (Cairhien was peaceful and they weren't allowed to fight Murandy), what chance would Birgitte have with such a long supply line, not to mention the fact that the opposition is well set up to maintain a guerilla campaign, and used to tougher opposition?  Perrin may have got them started, but the TR people know their strength now and are not likely to bend the knee to a strange queen because of &quot;lines on a map&quot; just as they are experiencing a new hight of prosperity. Tehy could also cut Baerlon off from Caemlyn all together, not to mention allow them a new trade route to the west. If that many refugees (enough to populate a large and prosperous town and overcome years of stubborn insistance on clothing styles) got through the Mountains of Mist, metal traders could as well.  The Seanchan welcome traders after all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 21:06:51
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I'm sure this was said already, but Perrin *is* going to rescue Morgase (or at least help in the rescue), so that should curry favor w/ the Trakands.<br />Morgase had relinquished the throne by then (by oath, not officially), but she did swear alleigiance to Faile (didn't she?).  That should count for something, since Faile is &quot;t'Aybara.&quot;<br />


created: 2002-02-05 04:50:28
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
I don't think Elayne and Perrin will come to blows at all. Perrin has the banners up as a face. To make it seem like he's bringing back Manetheran so their real purpose isn't seen. Perhaps Faile is thinking bigger than her husband but I don't think Perrin or Rand will try to take the two rivers from Andor. Elayne knows so little about the situation down there other than banners were raised. I think eventually all will be sorted out. Perrin is acting as emissary for Rand. Hense what he is doing actually has nothing to with the two rivers or Andor. Once Elayne actually talks to Perrin or possibly Rand about it I'm sure everything will be sorted out without any huge problems.


created: 2002-03-03 19:48:02
subject: <b>Here I go again.</b>
body:
Ok, ok. First off, Perrin openly discouraged the raising of the flag. He only allowed it when trying to get at The Prophet. Elayne is in love with Rand, who is too close to Perrin. My guess is that all these nations unite, as said in a theory, and Perrin hands them over to Elayne. As shown in Dragonmount (the little bit before the EotW) that Lews Therin didn`t die at the final battle. He ruled extensive lands with Illyena. Rand and Elayne shall rule these lands together. (this connects to another theory I have, but that won`t happen till later)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 00:54:23
subject: <b>In response to GuitarraTocador</b>
body:
I quote &quot;Once Elayne actually talks to Perrin or possibly Rand about it I'm sure everything will be sorted out without any huge problems.&quot;<br /><br />When has anyone in this series ever &quot;talked&quot; to anyone in a way designed to &quot;sort things out&quot; or &quot;solve problems&quot;?  All they ever want to do is issue commands and give orders.  Elayne is one of the worst for that (along with Egwene, the Wise Ones, and all the Aes Sedai).<br /><br />By the way, I loved Cannoli's &quot;Military Readiness Report&quot;.  Very well done.  In defence of the Queen's Guards, I believe they were better organized before Gaebril/Rahvin turfed all the veterans.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-08 11:52:43
subject: <b>This is actually....</b>
body:
This is actually pretty smart. I havent thought about that at all. But it makes sense and Elayne is a little shall we say &quot;restrictive&quot; and will probably get quite pissed sooner rather than later. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of the HOlY Kizer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Andor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> The sleepiest dude in the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 18:28:03
subject: <b>His hand is clear !</b>
body:
<i> The Lord of the Rings, Return of the King, The Pyre of Denethor </i><br /><br />&quot;Work of the Enemy! Such deeds he loves: freinds at war with friend; loyalty divided by confusion of hearts.&quot;<br /><i> Gandalf the White </i><br /><br />Then again, the WoT characters don't seem to need the Dark One's help to seep chaos and &quot; confusion of hearts &quot;<br />Still, we haven't seen a Two Rivers Darkfriend yet, and Moiraine said that &quot; they know no boundaries. They are of all lands and none. &quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 10:52:43
subject: <b>Mat flash back</b>
body:
i don't belive perrin will be the king of Manatheren. No i belive that after he started it by raising manatherens banner he will meet up with mat and co. mat will help perrin save faile and then perrin and mat will go back to the two rivers were perrin will hand manatheren (or whtaever it will be at the time) over to mat. Mat will exept reluctantley and perrin will go to Saldea with faile.


created: 2005-09-02 00:44:56
subject: <b>um</b>
body:
Perrin doesn't want to be a lord, much less king.  If/when he DOES become a king, it will be Saldea.  The Red Eagle is a disguise so that people won't guess what he's really doing.  When it's all said and done, the Two Rivers will be a part of Andor, assuming there is an Andor, Perrin will officially be made the lord, and eventually Faile will become Queen of Saldea.<br /><br />Why the hell would he use Morgase as a hostage?  Most likely the first thing he'll do when he finds out is have an Ashaman travel with her back to Caemlyn so she can rejoin elayne, and then Gawyn can finally get over hating Rand.


created: 2001-11-09 14:35:55
subject: <b>*LOGS INTO THE RASEREI ACOUNT*</b>
body:
password: SPAM!!!<br /><br />(Yeah, Right they'd let me have the password <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Nice theory, Aerocontrolls.  Although I must admit that it makes me wonder...   Where do YOU find the time to figure this out and write such a long and informative post.   (After all you are an aerospace engineer, right? )  Maybe Raserei and Pento aren't the ONLY users we should suspect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 15:04:45
subject: <b>One other thing</b>
body:
I just saw on the theory home page that this is the 666th theory.  I wonder if that has any significance.<br /><br />*grumbles about posting two times in a row again*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 15:09:11
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I've lost my entire sense of identity.<br /><br />Oh well, there is always SPAM&#8482;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 15:55:08
subject: <b>How could we have been so blind ...</b>
body:
Those cunning admins even spread rumours of Raserei clones to try and cover their tracks.<br /><br />The question is why use the name Raserei (&quot;The Fury&quot; in German or so I believe). I think this could be down to an initial attempt by Mike at World Domination, which failed. This first attempt was to create an automaton or bot that could happily post forever and would never be found out. <br />Mike couldn't take that his plan had failed and with a select few created an account called 'The Fury'. Mike fortunately has recovered and has new plans for world domination (aka Wotmania Standard Time ...) which he works on.<br /><br />Not wanting to break the illusion though the rest of the admins continue to use the Raserei account for the reasons aero stated....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2522.gif" /> Excalibur <img src="images/personalsmilies/2522.gif" /><br />Aviendha's Englishman<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 18:24:44
subject: <b>*pulls aerocontrols aside*</b>
body:
&quot;You've stumbled onto a dangerous secret, my friend. 'Raserei' is a code name. Have you ever wondered after the nature of the name's short form? 'Ras'? 'Resident Affiliates of Spam.' I myself have been tracking 'Raserei&quot; for months now, and my theory post submissions rarely go up anymore although my theories are well thought out and informative.&quot; *nudges Theory Admins* &quot;And do you know what? Whenever my posts do not go up, who deleted them? 'Raserei'...&quot;<br /><br />&quot;HURRRRHHHKK!&quot;<br /><br />*get's garrotted*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 18:27:10
subject: <b>OMG!</b>
body:
Not only that, but I just learn that wads spell backward is Spam!<br />What kind of twilit zone community do you run here mike!<br />*say 3 times narg to make the evil spirit of Spam go away*<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 19:10:20
subject: <b>Ras aint real <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
i knew it ALL along.. he's some kind of Franken-wot monster.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />arrrgggghhh *runs screaming*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Damael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Women love us for our defects. If we have enough of them, they will forgive us everything, even our gigantic intellects&quot;.</i> - Oscar Wilde</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 19:32:01
subject: <b>Reality is a relative concept!</b>
body:
<br />, For us the people that are only at contact with Raserei <br />Trough the post and chat, he as real as Wot ten books. It doesn&#8217;t matter if there is no &quot;real&#8221; raserei, because we interact with this being, we respon to it, we reconiz him as a diffrent  part from us,  we think about it as a &quot;person&quot; and by that we make him, real or not, alive!  so in our mind and response he is real.<br />of course, This came for a man that think narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> is the true hero of WOT so &#8230;.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 22:15:13
subject: <b>Burr</b>
body:
What that Burr guy said was really suspicious... I'm telling you, something's going down here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 23:03:40
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
RabidWombat:  You suspect me, huh?  That's what they want, believe me.  Anything to divert attention away from themselves.<br /><br />Raserei:  It would be helpful if, when posting in the future, you also reveal who you <i>actually</i> are.<br /><br />Excalibur: I think you may be onto some Truth, there.<br /><br />Green Gaidin:  I feel for you, but I shall not be silenced!  Rest in Peace, brother.<br /><br />user:  Actually, wads upside-down is spam.  Narg Rules, indeed.  Other than that, your vision of reality is rather skewed, I think.<br /><br />Damael:  Take one of these calming pills, and sit quietly until the men in the white jackets come to give you a ride.<br /><br />Mazrimbum:  Believe me, I noticed that &quot;Burr&quot; was the first to notice my theory, and post it.  Does the fact that he seems willing to let the Truth see the light of day exonerate him from involvement?  Or is it all a ruse.  In any case, I will watch him far more closely in the future.<br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 04:03:13
subject: <b>Raserei as real as Pento???</b>
body:
There is your problem;the real question is, Does Pento exist?<br /><br />hmmm......<br /><br /><br />*is glanced at, and ceases to exist.....*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 10:12:07
subject:
<b>Maybe Ras is R.J in disguise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
If <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the MVP of WOT becouse she is in every book, then Ras is the MVP of WOTMANIA for the same reason <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Anyway Ras Rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />p.s what about a Ras smily<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 11:00:26
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
So basically, he/they is/are just the Dread Pirate Raserei?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vegas: 2005, 2006, next?<br /><br /><i>Your job is to focus on my personal happiness, she said, &amp; I've got big plans, so break time is over. </i><br /><br /><font color="#FF9999">K</font><font color="#FF9966">o</font><font color="#FF9933">r</font><font color="#FF9900">y</font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.capitalonebowl.com/vote/main" target="_blank">Vote for Cocky!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 18:02:11
subject:
<b>Beware the  Dread Pirate Raserei!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
He takes no prisoners!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 06:57:59
subject: <b>The Secret of Raserei?</b>
body:
OMG, Ras is a creation of Admin and Elder types. I wish that was truth. It's a pity that he's not. (Did I say that he's not a creation of Wot *leaves reader to decide if I'm serious or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) But thanks for idea . Someone who's here all the time. That we can use to talk about anything we want, but not being discovered at it. Is a great idea <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> *wonders if there is a way to create a Ras type person* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 07:24:10
subject: <b>nonono</b>
body:
i exist therefore i'm Raserei<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font face="lucida console"><font color="688e23">When in doubt,go back to sleep.</font></font></b></font> <br /><br /><br /><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 09:42:18
subject: <b>OMG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
If this is true, do you know what this means?! Ras is my &quot;son&quot;.....that means that I am actually &quot;mom&quot; to: wotmania, Pento, Larry, Kit, Balwer, Angel, Elzabet, Burr...OMG - the list is too long! The horror, the horror! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And if it's true that Pento and wotmania are the same person......my &quot;kids&quot; are really messed up!<br /><br />~rocks in a corner~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Alana</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font face="times new roman">Trying not to choke on hope.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 10:05:14
subject: <b>Oh, very clever, Simon and Alana</b>
body:
&quot;We had no idea.&quot; they said disingenuously...<br /><br />It's too late to try fooling us with your faux shock.<br /><br />The Truth is out, now.<br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 13:37:54
subject: <b>*looks at this theory*</b>
body:
No comment.<br /><br />Paul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I've just wasted some of your bandwidth with this pointless sig. Aren't you happy?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 16:08:51
subject: <b>Aerocontrols I fear you are in great danger!</b>
body:
who know what they will do to keep their dirty little secret hidden?<br />Watch your back!<br />May narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> protect you.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 18:05:57
subject: <b>666?...</b>
body:
I had a giggle to myself when I saw that we were up to the 'evil' number of theory posts. Now that the TRUTH has appeared, I'm not in the mood for giggling, I'm afraid. Very afraid.<br />Narg protect us, maybe I'm not real. Maybe everything I believed about WOT is wrong. Maybe Taim IS Demandred.<br />Oh, wait a minute... Now I know the _real_ truth!<br />*pauses to wipe the foam from his mouth*<br />Just as Raserei is really an amalgam of admins, Demandred is: Taim, Dobraine, Bashere, Bela, Narg, Shaidar Haran AND Rand all at once!<br />Then there's the... AACK!.....<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 18:09:32
subject: <b>I'd have to disagree!</b>
body:
Raserei is as real as you or I! With my supreme knowledge I should know! You can run if you want to... but my eye can see you!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&#8220;I am the one who is all.&#8221;<br />&#8220;I am Aracan&#8221; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />&#8220;Slayer of the great serpent Krethri&#8221;<br />&quot;Don't worry... Death is my specialty&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 20:04:27
subject: <b>*makes a cameo Appearance</b>
body:
Tada!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Dread Pirate Raserei <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 20:33:41
subject: <b>OMG!</b>
body:
save your soules!<br />it is the  Dread Pirate Raserei!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 21:48:49
subject: <b>*grins evilly*</b>
body:
Mwuahaahahahahahahah!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Dread Pirate Raserei <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 04:03:18
subject: <b>Inconceivable!</b>
body:
You keep saying that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 05:50:31
subject: <b>aerocontrols ...</b>
body:
What is the truth ? Can anyone really know the truth ? You may think you have stumbled across the truth. But the reality is much more horrible than you can ever imagine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 09:06:33
subject: <b>&quot;Hello, my name is user Montoya. You killed my narg</b>
body:
Prepare to die&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 13:15:53
subject:
<b>*Adds Aerocontrols to <i>The List</i>&#8482;*<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
You know, having a Ras account wouldn't be such a bad idea... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 16:49:30
subject: <b>Murdered by pirates is good!</b>
body:
Dread Pirate Raserei, you rock.  <br />Personally, I know I'm real, but where did all you zombies come from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 16:29:38
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
This web page needs a resident shrink<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 15:57:49
subject: <b>The Dread Pirate Raserei Has Come for your SOULS!</b>
body:
true love is the greatest thing in the woild.  except for a nice mlt.  mutton lettuce and tomato sandwich?  When the mutto is nice and lean...and the tomato's ripe!  They're so perky.  I love that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 19:53:19
subject: <b>The six-fingered man.</b>
body:
Uh, Ras?<br />You wouldn't happen to have six fingers on your right hand, would you?<br />*Ducks out the picture into obscurity once more.*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-08 01:40:01
subject: <b>THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END</b>
body:
everyone needs to run and hide. This whole outfit has now been figured out and it wil bring down pillars that are too big for us all. RUN HIDE. And what DO the Other admins have to say about this. If it does go all the way to the to pwe are all doomed. Bet they figured if they all kept quite things would calm down. But they wont the news will be spread there is no RAS he is a cooperative effort by all the admins to keep the rest of us in the dark. Maybe it was even RAS that came up with the term RANDLAND (EWWW HOW TERRIBLE AND ICKY I FEEL SLIMY AFTER HAVING SAID THAT) well i for one will never sleep until this mystery is solved. <br /><br /><br /><br />MAYBE DEVON IS NOT EVEN REAL


created: 2002-01-18 03:09:46
subject: <b>similar incident</b>
body:
my father graduated from georgia tech.  at a tech football game one day a name(unfortunatly i cant remember but we will say john smith) was called over the intercom as one of the people doing something with the game.  my dad started laughting.  and explained how john smith was a long running tech joke.  he said about thirty or forty years ago a group of students forged a a false name.  got a birth certificate and everything made a schedule took tests everything for this &quot;John Smith&quot; the guy even graduated.  walked across the stage and everything.  turns out he was invented.  some students invented him in the one of the biggest (and most expensive!!) hoaxes in tech history.  just thought you might like to know.<br /><br />kudos and figuring out about ras though<br />oh..by the way i am<br />raistlin dourden<br />archmage darkelf<br />master of time


created: 2002-03-11 06:29:40
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
You have too much time on your hands <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-09 15:42:30
subject: <b>Shame on Mike</b>
body:
well, well... the truth is out. Ras is a fraud and a fake.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 15:43:39
subject: <b>ok im stupid</b>
body:
i dont get it. and please, no jokes about blondes coz i dont get them either. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*grins sheepishly, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> and goes off to water IQ in last desperate attempt to make it grow. wait, how do you water an IQ? *confused*  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-14 20:59:47
subject: <b>Doesn't post</b>
body:
Notice that Raserai has never posted a theory- odd for someone who has done as much as him and posted on so many comments.  That makes very little sense.


created: 2001-11-12 21:42:29
subject: <b>It doesn't make complete sense</b>
body:
Elaida and most reds think of reds as incompetent and wouldn't send a pair of accepted to do a sister's work, secondly, Faolin and Theodrin should be scared out of their wits now since they would probably be tried for impersonating sisters if they returned to the tower, thirdly, Elaida never mentioned any spies send to the tower, forthly, Theodrin was being quite kind helping Nynaeve with her block, fifthly, didn't one of the two choose the blue Ajah?  In addition, the tower in Salidar had already sent out ambasadors to the nations, and neighboring nobles, and it's hard to gather a few hundred Aes Sedai without having a specific list of rebels would be difficult without revealing their location.  It just makes no sense for them to be spies.


created: 2001-11-12 22:12:48
subject: <b>Also..</b>
body:
Two things. First, what do they get out of it? There's risk involved, so there must be a reward, or else they wouldn't do it.  Secondly, their explanation for coming to Salidar is about the same as everyone's-- that what Elaida did wasn't right. Does anyone (except Siuan and her close friends, and even them, to an extent) have a different reason?<br /><br />I also think it would be odd for Theodrin to team up witih Faolain, since she's consistently shown as a nice person-- something the 'evil' people aren't.<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-11-12 22:34:44
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
Ok, first, the would we spies for the keeper, not the elidia. <br />Second, elidia doesnt know of anything fast. Salidar stared very shorty after the breaking of the tower, and Elidia didnt know right away.<br />3rd, since they would be, of course, spies for the keeper, if anyone, the keeper doesnt need any spies she she is black, and there are other darffriends with them. <br />You dont really have too much basis for saying they are spies. All you have is saying they arent what they show. I myself take them for what they are. I think that they are just 2 girls who worked their way up through the tower, and are mad/jealous that 3 people went to Aes Sedia after only a year, a very mischevious year.<br />Everything Elidia sees, we knoqw, basically, because she doesn't really know much, and as we know, has no real power.


created: 2001-11-13 03:01:15
subject: <b>it all began when</b>
body:
faolain fell madly in love with theodrin.  theo didn't like what happened to siuan and leane so she left, and fao followed like a lovesick puppy.  there were no reds among the rebels anyway, so it wasn't too big a deal for fao to choose the same ajah as the object of her affection.  as for following egwene despite disliking her, fao's reasons are the same as breane's for following morgase...some people will do anything for love.<br /><br />i don't know whether theo returns fao's feelings, but we can hope; we need more gay love stories in wot (even if they are about lesbians and are therefore &quot;less threatening&quot; to simple-minded bigots)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 11:23:04
subject: <b>Faolin is Black</b>
body:
Didn't you catch this?<br />When the girls (Nyn and Elayne) arrive in Salidar with Birgette and Moghedien (in disguise), Faolin comes to take two of the women with her to be tested for the ability to channel, yet she leaves Moghedien behind, as well as Birgette whom Moghedien undoubtabley (sp? I cant!) wanted fro her own purposes whether she could channel or not. Nyn speaks of this when she has Moghedien on the a'dam in T'A'R at the end of FoH. The fact that Moghedien and Birgette were left behind proves that Faolin had orders not to take them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 12:17:45
subject: <b>hmmm.....</b>
body:
Intereting thought, Green Gaidin, about Faolin.  My understanding though, was that Moggy and Birgitte were too old.  They extended the age, but not by much.<br /><br />About the main post.  I doubt Elaida has a spy.  She doesn't seem to know enough.  If she did she would want to beef up the tower guard for instance.   This is one of those cases where Elaida's arrogance gets in the way, I think.  She thinks that the rebels are doomed because of her 'secret' (whatever that is) and therefore disregards them.  That secret doesn't seem to be that she has a spy.  My guess is that it is either a misleading fortelling that we don't know about or she has a mole or two in the rebel camp.  In other words, Elaida has someone in the rebel camp that she thinks will disrupt any plans to attack Tar Valon.  Suitable candidates are probably not people who were with the initial group (although it is possible).   They would have to be in a position of great authority as well.   My favorite candidates (if there are any) are Romanda, Lelaine, Delana, Sheriam's torturer.<br /><br />In any case, I can't imagine Elaida even thinking about using an accepted, much less to have the forsight to tell them to join the rebel camp when she probably thinks she has won a complete victory.  (Now the BA on the other hand...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 12:46:44
subject: <b>Wombat...</b>
body:
...I can&#180;t imagine that Delana is a spy for anyone but the Chosen...and not even spy but tool to them.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 13:27:23
subject: <b>Green Gaidin...</b>
body:
If Faolain was black, I think Moggy would have ben able to puzzle that out (if she hadn't known already) and she would not have let herself suffer at the hands of Nyn., Elayne and the a'dam.  A black sister would know Moghedien and what and a'dam was.  Their cicle is smaller and much more informed than &quot;regulars&quot; in the Westlands.  Moggy would have been freed by Fao, either of Fao's own accord, or on orders from Moggy.  It doesn't play out.  Also, do you think she would pledge to Egwene while Aran'gar/Halima is around?  I don't know... unless Aran'gar ordered her to do such a thing.  But Aran'gar doesn't need her to do that, given how close she is to Egwene herself.  I can forsee Fao. choosing the Shadow at a later date...maybe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 14:01:12
subject: <b>Give Faolain a break!</b>
body:
I don't think that Faolain is a spy  for Elaida for the following reason.If she was Elaida's secret spy then she would want to blend in and wouldn't want to draw attention to herself in Salidar,however, we do know that she was disciplined quite harshly for bullying Siuan, &quot;Speak to Faolain or Emara if you want to know what happens to anyone who molests us. They weren't the first or the worst but they cried the longest.&quot;(FoH). Min predicts that Faolain has a pleasant future ahead of her. She is working on something &quot;not terribly inferior to what you golden children have done&quot; (loc).Just because she isn't pleasant does not make her a darkfriend.I believe that she will have a key part to play in the battle of Tar Valon but that remains to be seen. However,I do have reservations about Theodrin,her reaction to catching Nynaeve spying was suspect but there isn't enough evidence to condemn her yet as either darkfriend or Elaida's spy.


created: 2001-11-13 15:02:24
subject: <b>mauladala ...</b>
body:
Liandrin and the other BA did not know who Moggy was, and I don't think that Faolin would either. Well, wouldn't know that she is one of the forsaken, anyway. Just a Darkfriend would be all, but one higher than her nevertheless. Also, she would not know what an a'dam was, since she was only an accepted. Wasn't there a grandmother who was found that the little tower was going to train? I thought that one of their policies was to train any woman who could be trained, therefore there was no reason not to take Birgette and Moghedien. I just finished FoH again, but then again, I'm playing with 51 cards...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 21:20:47
subject: <b>interesting...</b>
body:
Hey, nice way of thinking outside of the box, el poster.  Glad to read something other than who is Demandred.<br /><br />Though I would like to point out that Elaida could get her news, the news Alviarin allows her to know, from this path.<br /><br />Delana~Halima/Aran'gar~Mesaana~Alviarin~Elaida.<br /><br />This would explain the lack of info, only what each wanted the other to know.  Aran'gar wouldn't be too in favor of Mesaana knowing a lot, and Mesaana would only tell Alviarin what she wanted her to know so that things would go according to her arrangements, as would Alviarin to Elaida.<br /><br />Nice, interesting idea, though.


created: 2001-11-14 08:12:49
subject: <b>didn't they swear</b>
body:
the REAL BIG OATH, that only a darkfriend would break? <br />Or is my mind making fun of me again?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 15:42:09
subject: <b>Lesbos</b>
body:
I'm not saying that faolain and theodrin are spies, or that they aren't spies.  All I am doing is providing a reasonable explanation for why they spend so much time together. <br />Maybe they were novices together.  If they were maybe they were even &quot;pillow friends&quot; (which, btw, means that they go down on each-other regularly).  so think about it!  There are tons of explanations.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 22:19:30
subject: <b>hmm... interesting</b>
body:
I was thinking that if they are friends of the dark they could be working for Mesaana in the WT. if they are reporting to her, then she might have told Alviarin where the rebels were. Alviarin may have then chosen to pass on that information to Elaida. That could explain one possibility...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 23:02:16
subject: <b>Pillow Friends?</b>
body:
Metallica Man2, Heartshade I'm sorry but I don't really see it. There hasn't been anything to me to indicate that Faolin and Theodrin are anything but platonic friends. Kind of like the Red and the Green (?) Tower sister hunting the black ajah some might confuse thier close friendship for lesbianism, but that's about it.<br /><br />   All that we've seen of Theodrin and Faolin tends to suggest that they have a bit of friendship going together having been novices, and then having been promoted to accepted and accepted plus together have gotten along pretty well.<br /><br />   The fact that they've gone witht he oath of loyalty to Egwene is pure survival tactics. If Elaida wins then they get in deep swallop for leaving the tower, possibly for being promoted beyond accepted, definitely for impersonating sisters. Since Egwene is the one that has placed them in this perdicament it behooves them to try and help her suceed because they'll go down together if she falls (I mean they get prosecuted get you minds out've the gutter).<br /><br />   By the way doesn't it seem weird to hear me argue against two characters being pillow friends since I wrote the only theory to thus far focus on it? Wow if that isn't a strike against the idea of them being gay I don't know what is.<br /><br />   Of course knowing my luck RJ will reveal in the next book that Faolin and Theodrin got married on the road to Salidar and have documented evidence that he's planned it since book 6.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 19:54:47
subject: <b>Lord Savaunt</b>
body:
In order to support my theory of theodrin and faolain being lesbos, i will say that <br />a)a sea folk and carhienin put up with days of  to hide the fact that they were &quot;more than just friends.&quot;<br />b)i never stated any opinions on whether or not they were spies, so HAHA...that doesn't apply to me!<br /><br />so you see, although they may not be homo-erotic members of the WoT community, they very well could be.<br /><br />besides, how else is someone who wanted to be red gonna get some action<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />until my next post, i remain:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 09:34:57
subject: <b>Don't confuse Jordan and Goodkind</b>
body:
Several people use 'Keeper'when they mean the DO and 'Westland' when they mean Randland. It's fine if you like both Jordan's and Goodkind's worlds, but confusing them is somewhat sloppy.<br /><br />By the way, opposites sometimes attract so maybe Theodrin and Foalain are pillow friends. Jordan likes little ironic twists and therefore my guess is that Theodrin is a spy or a Black Accepted. <br />Min thinks Foalain has a bright future and she is seldom if ever wrong. For this reason, I do not think Foalian either is either one of the Good guys or she wil redeem herself by saving Egwene


created: 2001-11-27 23:24:35
subject: <b>Uh...Florin....you're stupid</b>
body:
OK...granted the keeper/do thing has credit, but Jordan came out and publicly named the main continent in WoT &quot;the Westlands.&quot;  My theory is that he, along with me and everyone else was just irritated by the name &quot;randland.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-26 12:05:53
subject: <b>Faolain is not BA</b>
body:
As posted above, Min dislikes Faolain intensely, yet has viewed a bright future for her.<br /><br />As for Theodrin, I don`t think so.  Maybe she didn`t call down Nynaeve because she , too, was a Wilder.<br /><br />At any rate, I believe Carlinya is a plant for Elaida, if not a Black.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 14:44:17
subject: <b>I like the theory</b>
body:
except for LTT not being Ta'veren.  Demandred for one, keeps saying how 'lucky' LTT was.  So, maybe as far as skill goes, Demandred was better, as he seems to think.  But, being ta'veren altered their relationship in LTT's favor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 14:59:24
subject: <b>~</b>
body:
Uh, i'm pretty shure every dragon was a ta'veran. I mean, if they are to have the greatest influence on the world, the must be. Also, i thikn the dark one could be considered a sort of ta'veran....


created: 2001-11-14 15:29:49
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I think you strike an interesting point here. We have never heard that LTT was indeed Ta'veren.<br />Don't know if I agree though... It seems strange if LTT was not.<br /><br />Your theory got me thinking though, *how* unusual is Ta'veren?<br />They cannot be too rare, since Siuan &quot;sees&quot; Ta'veren and in order for her to recognize that, I think she must have encountered at least two before meeting Rand and C:o.<br /><br />That says to me that there must be at least a couple of Ta'verens besides our three heros on &quot;the main continent&quot;, possibly many more.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 15:57:12
subject: <b>About LTT not being Ta'veren</b>
body:
I used that incomplete WOT Search to help us and came up with the results below. Listed are chapters that contain both the words 'lews therin' and 'ta'veren'. The chapters that also have 'artur hawkwing' have a '(HW too)' next to them. I did this because I lent my first two books out.  I seem to remember some listing of ta'verens and Lews was among them, but I may be mistaken. If someone could check out these chapters (especially the 3 w/Hawkwing) that would be great. I just can't see why everyone would have the impression that LTT was Ta'veren if he was, in fact, not so.<br /><br />The Eye of the World:<br /> Chapter 36: Web of the Pattern (HW too)<br /> Chapter 50: Meetings at the Eye<br /> Chapter 52: Neither Beginning Nor End<br />The Great Hunt: 10 Matches <br /> Chapter 15: Kinslayer<br /> Chapter 22: Watchers<br /> Chapter 30: Daes Dae'mar<br /> Chapter 41: Disagreements (HW too)<br /> Chapter 49: What Was Meant To be (HW too)<br />The Dragon Reborn: 8 Matches <br /> Chapter 5: Nightmares Walking<br /> Chapter 50: The Hammer<br /> Chapter 56: People of the Dragon<br /><br />I thought that the theory was basically sound except for the ta'veren part. I agree with the first post about Damandred's comment about LTT minting his own luck. That sounds very ta'veren-like in nature. Just because Damandred was close to LTT in ability doesn't disprove that LTT was ta'veren. There are other channelers that are close to Rand's strength as well as all other aspects of his abilities (sword,fighting,ruling,etc...he's just a man. He just happens to bend people to his will). <br /><br />For instance, I was having a conversation with Shattered Seal about the fighting abilities of various characters. I said that in Far Madding, Galad would probably defeat Rand if they ever fought (I am one who believes him Jaerom reborn) and he said that Rand would win because he is ta'veren. At first, this seems logical, but it's not like Rand wins every battle that he fights. He only wins the ones that matter. <br /><br />Basically, if the wheel requires him to lose a battle or look like a fool or a complete weakling in order for a predestined event to occur, than that's what happens. Being ta'veren doesn't mean that you are a God, you just get things done - one way or another.<br /><br />The idea that Lews balefired himself is ludicrous. That much balefire would probably have unraveled his entire life. Although I wonder what would happen if you balefired yourself? Would you undo the act of balefiring yourself? Hmmm...<br /><br />Also, we had a post a while back about Ishamael being ta'veren and a lot of comments on it... It was pretty weak. There was nothing convincing on the subject. And even if he was ta'veren at some point, he wouldn't have been one for 3000 years. Ta'veren are such FOR A TIME, as long as the wheel needs them, NOT for their whole lives. And I don't see how being Naeblis relates to ta'veren. Is he manipulating the Dark One with ta'veren into getting to become Naeblis? I think not! The Dark One dwells outside of the pattern. The forsaken have said that the pattern was thinnest next to the Dark One. Ishamael is Naeblis from his own skill.<br /><br />Siuan may have just realized that she could see ta'veren when she saw our three heroes. But there are minor ta'veren as well. They may only be such for a day or two and only affect minor things, but it is possible that she was some of them.<br /><br />Wow - that was short - I better write more next time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-14 19:50:46
subject: <b>Good Points</b>
body:
Good points to ponder...this was as much question as theory.  One of the things I guess I was trying to communicate is that Lews Therin Telamon was a LOSER. I don't mean that in a mocking way, but he didn't WIN. He only managed a band-aid.<br /><br />They write stories about the winners. And Rand, presumably will be the winner, whether he survives or not.  That means maybe he'll have advantages that LTT didn't: two other ta'veren, being Dragon AND ta'veren...etc. <br /><br />In any event, Rand, despite being the re-incarnation of LTT, is different from him.<br /><br />Oh, and the point about balefiring himself was just sort of a brain exercise. I don't think he did, but I wonder about the outside source possibility.


created: 2001-11-14 22:18:50
subject: <b>Thats One Damn Beasty Band Aid!!!</b>
body:
Vashti,Vashti,Vashti...<br />You Casually Refer the seal on the Bore As a BANDAID!!! UHUM *clears Throat* do you realize that this 'bandaid' is the only reason that the Dark One Was not free to play dominoes with all his little pets!!! Well Enough on that lets Shatter the rest of you post... <br /> 1. ...most powerful Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing (who was NOT a channeler). <br />What was the point in telling us that he didnt Channel? i think we knew that i mean hes the guy who would have faced castration before learning to chanel.<br /> 2. ...my guess is that ANY ta'veren is 'strong', as such things are measured... I think being ta'veren means that you are strong enough so to be considered it. i.e., if you weren't strongly ta'veren, you wouldn't be ta'veren.<br />Dont you remember the times there are mentioned &quot;weak&quot; ta'veren say for instance ones that only affect the area immediately arround them and for only short periods of time. i mean i know ta'veren are rare but i think that they pop up more than once in a Thousand years. therefore i think that we would have more accounts of people falling off roofs and bouncing (which seems a favorite for people around ta'veren).<br />  3. Well i cant find a third so your not as lame as i first thought so kudos for you.     <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> An optomist Knows The World Is Good A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />Shattered Seal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 22:34:35
subject: <b>Band-aids and Ouches!</b>
body:
I'm really not disparaging LTT...the achievement was monumental and critical. I am merely pointing out that it is highly probably that we are reading about Rand because he is going to do MORE than slap another celestial 'band-aid' on it.<br /><br />And I agree -- and remember, at the prompting of you and others -- that there have been minor ta'veren around.<br /><br />Rand, Mat and Perrin are all very strongly so. Mat and Perrin are likely close to, or on par with, Artur Hawkwing. Plus, they have 'gifts', like from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, or the wolf brothers.


created: 2001-11-15 00:05:07
subject: <b>LTT was taveren</b>
body:
Somewhere in my vague memory I remember it said that LTT was such a strong taveren that those in the<br />same room could feel it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Dagashei <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> lord_tiger_vii@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> dagashei@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Observer of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 01:59:07
subject: <b>Proof please...</b>
body:
Please tell me where, if anywhere, it says that ta'veran are only ta'veran for a certain part of their lives.  I've been through the series four times and I don't remember anyone saying anything like that.  Ta'veran are ta'veran for life, I'm sure.


created: 2001-11-15 06:51:16
subject: <b>I wish I had my books</b>
body:
However I don't. Luckily, I have a memory!<br /><br />Lord Tiger, you're thinking of Hawkwing.<br /><br />BalefireBoy, I'm almost certain it was Moiraine who said it. Quite early on as well I think. Like I said, I don't have my books, if I did I'd find the quote, hopefully someone else will.<br /><br />I don't know when it was, but relatively recently I was arguing that LTT wasn't ta'veren (or at least that we don't know he was). One of my arguments was that if he was ta'veren, surely it would have been recorded. I mean, it was the AoL, it's not like something like that would slip by. Plus it would be an important point. Now I realise that many things were lost in the breaking, possibly including the writings that spoke of LTT being ta'veren, but he's such a high profile figure and it would have been such an important thing to say about him, I find it hard to believe he wasn't. Another argument I had was that if LTT was ta'veren and it was known, we would have seen it come up in the series by now. After all, Moiraine would surely have used it as further proof to Rand that he is the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />This is one point where I really wish I had my books, but I don't, so hopefully someone can confirm this for me. I'm absolutely positive that in the glossary of one of the books, possibly under &quot;Talents&quot;, it mentions a talent where the effects that a ta'veren has are repeated at close range to that channeler. Now for quite a while I've believed Egwene has this talent (as she does some amazing things that we would definitely put down to being ta'veren of Rand did them), but perhaps LTT had it too (after all, i think Jordan has put the talent in for a reason, so I suspect one if not both have the talent). That would explain him making his own luck without him being ta'veren. Another explanation would be that he simply was lucky, it does happen.<br /><br />I agree with your theory! I disagree on the balefire front however. For 3 reasons:<br /><br />1. Everytime we have seen balefire used, it has shot out of the channelers hand. This bolt struck from the sky.<br /><br />2. If it had been balefire, the Dragon's soul would have been removed from the pattern (like Rhavin) and Rand wouldn't have been reborn.<br /><br />3. From memory I don't think ti even matches the description of what balefire would do, I believe it says something like &quot;the ground turned to vapour at the bolt's touch&quot;, but if it was balefire, it simply would have stopped existing, not changed to anything else.


created: 2001-11-15 07:00:56
subject: <b>About LTT ...</b>
body:
LTT is not the Loser you pose him to be.<br />He started from a scholar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> in a peaceful world and ended by ruling all aes sedai and imprisoning the Dark One. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />I know he didn't solve the problem, and only moved it to the next Age, but (here is the important part) EVERY DRAGON for countless second ages did the same !<br />Since the wheel of time turn and turn, every time the dark one is freed there is a DRAGON who partialy imprison him, and prepare the world for the DRAGON REBORN <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> to FINISH the JOB.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 11:32:22
subject: <b>maby rand will be a &quot;Loser&quot; too</b>
body:
<br />If the wheel is keep returning itself than rand must also not &quot;win&quot; the DO but only keep him in bay.<br />Since the DO objective is to cruse the wheel, than in that case rand, the dragon, as a agent of the light and the creator, objective need to be the opposite of the DO objective, meaning keep the wheel in it course and in it original patter,<br />So he can't &quot;win&quot; the DO because than the wheel will be different.<br />Also it seems to my that every dragon must suffers horribly or die in a kind of like Jesus metaphor<br />Nice theory<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 11:43:30
subject: <b>What the...</b>
body:
Why does Rand have to die? Why can't he survive? And surely if each Dragon's only purpose is to stop the DO ruling all the world, LTT won and Rand will too (obviously, it's not like the series is going to end in a crushing victory for the DO).<br /><br />I really wish we knew how often the Dragon is born each turning of the wheel. I mean, is he born every age? I can't see how that would be as in the AoL they had to discover war. Surely if the DO had been freed to any degree in the First Age, the Second Age would have already known war. Anyway, the only thing we know is that in each Second Age the DO is sealed away inperfectly and this is rectified in the Third Age. Hopefully RJ will tell us (or give us hints) as to what happens in the other Ages in that encyclopedia he intends to write after the series.


created: 2001-11-15 14:14:31
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
I thought Ta'veren were a center, or focus, of the WOT's weaving.  Many of the other threads in the Pattern are woven around this focus.  I think Moiraine described it that way.  I think she also said that some Ta'veren come and go quickly, having little effect, where others bend the whole pattern.  I don't have the exact quote, and I may be totally wrong, but I am pretty sure that this is  correct. <br /><br />Therefore, it sems that all foci in the pattern are Ta'veren (of a sort), despite their relative strength, sex, or ability to channel.  Obviously, the term Ta'veren has been applied to the strongerst examples of Ta'verenness, like Rand or Hawkwing.  But many other lesser Ta'veren exist.  All it takes is for a part of the pattern to revolve/spin around you for a short time.<br /><br />Any local Lord/Lady could be a weak sort of ta'veren (with a little &quot;t&quot; ), as the threads of the people they rule revolve around theirs.  Certainly, Heros of the Horn would be Ta'veren to some degree.  They are central characters in many of the epics.  The Pattern, like their stories, revolved around them for a time.  <br /><br />However, the question of &quot;dark&quot; Ta'veren is still up in the air. If the WOT is the Creator's, then it would seem that the only foci (Ta'veren) would only be good.  However, the DO obviously influences the Pattern, so I guess it is possible that he also can insert his own Ta'veren into the weaving.  <br /><br />Of course this brings up the question of what is really driving the WOT and the Age Lace/Pattern.  I believe that it has been stated in the series that the One Power, or rather the Source, drives the Wheel.  In that case, it would seem that the True power is an anti-WOT force.  This is evidenced by the odd interaction between the two balefire streams in Shadar Logoth.  The different energies do not interact well.<br /><br />Therefore, since Moridin/Ishy uses primarily the TP, then he may actually be an anti-Ta'veren, spinning the Pattern around himself in the opposite direction.  In other words, assume that the Pattern weaves the threads of people around a Ta'veren in a clockwise fashion because of the way the OP runs the WOT.  On the other hand, the TP puts a counter-clockwise spin on the Pattern around the Dark Ta'veren.  <br /><br />Therefore, TG may really be all about the fight between good Ta'veren and Dark Ta'veren.  Their &quot;spin&quot; on the weaving of the Pattern is opposite, like toilet drains spin different directions in the North and South Hemispheres.  In the end, Rand's spin, aided by Mat and Perrin, neutralizes the spin from Moridin/the DO's minoins.  <br /><br />Phew, that was almost a Theory there.  Maybe I'll have to post it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


