# w_comment

created: 2002-02-28 21:59:17
subject: <b>Owyn wan't gentled 20 years ago...</b>
body:
Call_Me_Tim: Thom was with Morgaise when Elayne was a little girl. He left suddenly because of Owyn. Thom never went back to Morgaise because she put a price on his head. Since Elayne is a year or two younger than Rand (and Rand is ~20), Owyn's gentling couldn't have been as long ago as 20 years.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 10:45:46
subject: <b>looking back on old theories</b>
body:
well coming across this one, I just thought I'd like to say I have always favored Douglass Adams, that is Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy view of time paradoxes. That is there are none, everything just fits together like a jigsaw. You can't change anything, whatever you do just kinda makes what happens in the future work better. Tough to explain, maybe if you read the books?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-27 09:04:51
subject: <b>pillowfriends</b>
body:
the pillowfriends comment about moiraine and siuan was made in the prequel to wheel of time &quot;New Spring&quot;<br /><br />just thought i would throw that in there for whoever it was that was wondering about it.<br /><br />onnestabe


created: 2003-03-27 13:18:19
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
Owyn's death was about 13 years ago (the Vialness) elayne was about 3 to 6 years old<br /><br />and the (not exact) wording between mat and thom was  <br />mat: was that a another woman you tried to save?<br />thom: no that one was one i left.<br /><br />the letter that moi sent contained only the names of the AS,<br />although (and this is irrelevent) i have seen a theory about the letter that thom recieved being a different letter<br />(something about the seals on the envelope)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 22:05:08
subject: <b>The letter</b>
body:
What if in her future Moirane saw that she wrote the letter and then did  it. It would keep the same timeline


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Introducing Moridin</b>
body:
Was Moridin intrduced in LoC?  I thought it was Crown of Swords.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Skitso<br /><br />Just Another Lurker</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Thanks skitso</b>
body:
Sorry, my books are all packed away, so I'm doing this all from memory.<p>Yes, Moridin wasn't introduced until Book 7, as Moggy wasn't freed by Halima until the end of Book 6.  I'm going to update my reply right now. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Bad Ash <img src="images/devil.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Luc/Isam</b>
body:
I think it is most likely that lucisam took him. It is quite posible that they had met before, and as you know, lucisam is a dreamwalkerassassin, which would allow him to enter unseen, and not using the the one power.. so that he wouldn't be detected..


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Asmo's Alive</b>
body:
it is my feeling that Asmo isnt dead... or if he is then he was brought back in another form by the DO maybe, his sole was put into Taims body i dont know.. but to me the idea of a Forsaken that turns from the DO is too important and key to the plot... think of how much info Rand could get from him on the workings and sealings of the Bore... This would also be a great plot twist... id like to point out that RJ said that the answer was in book 5 but he never said asmo was dead...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Forgot to pput this in...</b>
body:
It would mak SO much sense that taim would be linked to Demandred if he was realy Asmo in Taims body... Demandred absolutley hated Asmo and the Do would play that cruel trick like we would piss in the morning when we get up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>nope.</b>
body:
In an interview with RJ, someone asked him this exact question, and he responded, "Oh, God no.."  He would never put a pun like that in the books..


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Asmo IS Dead...</b>
body:
As it was said, RJ didn't want to play with that cheezy pun, so by saying that "death took him" and not implying Moridin, then that means he's long gone. <img src="images/dead.gif" /><p>The DO even says that Asmo died the 'Final Death', i.e: either Balefire (if it's Graendal) or died in T'A'R (if it's Slayer) and I'd understand him pretty well to want him dead. It would be damn cheap for this super-villain to keep this pawn after it betrayed him like Asmo did.</p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Catch ya all later <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Yeah but</b>
body:
I still think that people are misinterpreting DOs' comment about Asmodean. I always got the impression that the Dark One could resurrect Asmodean if he wanted he just doesn't want to is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>A couple ideas</b>
body:
One, my big notion of late is that it was Padan Fain who got Asmo.  After all, he seems to be collecting Forsaken lately.  Asmo might have recognized the ex-darkfriend, and assumed that the DO's retribution had caught up at last.  Or he recognized Mordeth's power in Fain, which would *really* scare Asmo stiff. <br />Now, on to ideas about Asmo's "Final Death."  Balefire and dying in T'A'R certainly would work . . . but getting eaten by Mordeth would work too, probably.  Or, alternatively, the DO didn't want to bring Asmo back (no telling whose side he might choose, at this point).  It's possible that the DO can only grab dying Forsaken at the instant of death . . . if the DO passed up on that chance for Asmo, then the turncoat's toast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Lack of recognition thouhg...</b>
body:
I don't think that Asmo would necessarily recognize Fain. Surely his reputation would be something known, but a lot of friends of the dark have had trouble knowing who the man is on sight (even Alviarnin Freidha the leader of the Black Ajah didn't recognize the man til he gave a demonstration or said somethin).<p>   Mordeth came about after his time so he (Asmo) wouldn't necessarily know what that power was if it could even be felt on sight.</p><p>   A lot folk seem to forget that Asmo was hiding out for most of the time. So the chances that he ever got to meet Fain or Slayer (or find out what they looked like) seem slim to me.</p><p>   The guy probably recognized his killer as someone he'd known for a while.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 17:04:51
subject: <b>It's still a mystery to me.</b>
body:
First off, Asmodean is dead and GONE. Second, the only two ways this is a certainty is balefire and death in T&#8217;A&#8217;R. Any use of balefire at that point in time in the palace would have been sensed, since it can be supposed that everyone is a little bit paranoid following the other attacks, and Rand nailing Rahvin. There&#8217;s no way to know for sure if Asmodean might or might not know Slayer (Luc/Isam), though it might be supposed since the two of them being merged is certainly the work of the DO. Luc and Isam each disappeared into the Blight, and it can be surmised that they each arrived at Shayol Ghul, where they were turned and merged. Might that have been done by the Forsaken at the DO&#8217;s order? Then Asmodean would know him. But I can&#8217;t find proof, and RJ says all the evidence is there to determine his killer.<br /><br />The Stranger in the Shadows posted that Fain is collecting Forsaken. Fain has never killed a Forsaken. He disposes of lesser Darkfriends and shadowspawn left and right, but he wouldn&#8217;t go that far unless one of them got directly in his way. Fain/Mordeth/Ordeith might in his way be worse than a Forsaken,  and even believes himself beyond any oath he took to the DO in the past (Mordeth&#8217;s evil and Mashadar didn&#8217;t seem to be a direct product of any action on the part of the DO). Fain has no vested interest in assassinating Asmodean, even if Asmodean would recognize him.<br /><br />Slayer is a possibility, but evidence of Asmodean recognizing him prior to this doesn't exist that I can recall. One of the female forsaken with a normal weapon or using the True Power might make sense, but the only possibles among them are Graendal or Semirhage, both of whom seem unlikely to perform such a personal assassination in a risky place like the Palace on that day.<br /><br />One last possibility is that this is this first emergence of Cyndane, but guising herself as Lanfear to be recognizable to Asmodean. Certainly she would be upset enough to want Asmo dead after what happened to her, and certainly Asmo would be VERY afraid to see her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 14:55:24
subject: <b>gholam</b>
body:
Anybody consider that it could have been the gholam.  Since only 3 (i think) were ever created, he could recognize it on sight.  And they were specifically created to kill those with the power.  And asmodean would be pretty much helpless against it.  Anyway just a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Raistlin Majere<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Challenger of Gods<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Procrastination means never having to say you're sorry.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 10:52:56
subject: <b>Asmo's killer</b>
body:
On this note, I hope they re-introduce his character, especially before the Last Battle. (he was getting pretty cool). <br />Other thoughts later...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am a worker&quot; <br />-The Prophet Muhammad<br /><br />&quot;A lot of people think right-wingers aren't capable of being amusing at all. Not true. Mussolini looked hilarious swinging from that lamppost.&quot;<br />-Charlie Brooker</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 00:55:10
subject: <b>Moridin = grave</b>
body:
First, let's assume that RJ would do something so completely out of character as use a stupid pun to symbolize who killed Asmodean.<br />The Horn of Valere is the only place we see what Moridin's name actually means.<br />Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin.<br />The GRAVE is no bar to my call.<br />Moridin = grave.<br />It does not mean 'death.'<br />I'm sorry, but that shoots the whole theory to poop.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Stoplight at ninety miles an hour<br />On a bridge that was going up.<br />This was my life.<br />I have it now. I understand.<br />This thought that crushes my mind was once a man,<br />And your name goes on forever<br />And your name goes on and on.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 17:26:29
subject: <b>Moridin did take him</b>
body:
OK in the path of daggers Moridin is playing a game and stroking two mind traps.  One we know is connected to Moghedien as for the other i beleive it belongs to Asmodean. Some Think Moridin is Ishamael. He could posiable be Ishameael as as proof I offer this, also from Path of Dagger, as Mordin plays Sha'rah he thinks to him self that only 9 people knew how to play((the chosen)) he considers the fisher and wounders if it is a distant memory of the dragon reborn.  That kind of thinking is trade mark of Ishmael, even the other chosen had commented on his theories that the last battle had been faught many times over.  There are other hints and clues like his coats being made like in the age of legends style.  and that Moridin appears quite mad at times.  And as for why he does not look like Ishmael. We have seen poof that the Dark lord can snatch some one from the grave and put them in a new body.  Ishmael was not killed by balefire so can be revived.  A number of other things that i have read in other theorys about Asmoden &quot;death&quot; that Death took him--well Moridin means Death in the old toung.  And as for why Asmodean said &quot;you? no!&quot;  well its simple. He knew Ishmael had been reborn as Moridin and was there fore scared.  Cause if it was just about any one else theye would have tried to take rand out.  If it was a female chosen Avendah would have sensed her channeling and if it was a male rand would have.  except Maridin uses the &quot;true power&quot; and there for would not have been detected.  Im ganna shut up know and go read some more.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Death, oh by death, shall all lifes conficts be decided.<br /><br />Pain is just an imaganation..  and joy is just a dream<br />but death is oh so real<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 02:40:50
subject: <b>Waredragon:</b>
body:
No! No no no no no! Jordan himself has said that Moridin did not kill Asmodean. If that's not enough, then consider that Jordan has also said that the killer should have been obvious from the moment Asmodean died. How is a character not introduced until two books later &quot;obvious&quot;? While you're right about Moridin being Ishamael reborn, you're wrong about everything else, because the second mindtrap belongs to Cyndane, NOT Asmodean.<br /><br />Why do 31% of people believe that this theory is true?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>needs his eyes to fight</b>
body:
The main problem I have with Mat actualy losing his eye instead of it being a metaphor is that he needs his eye to fight.  As most people know you need both eyes for depth perception.  With only one eye he will have a horrible time blocking attacks.


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Giving???</b>
body:
Do you really see Mat GIVING his eye to save anybody?  Maybe his spear, or his fox medaillon, but a part of his body?  I surely don't.


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Eye</b>
body:
I don't think Mat will "give" his eye so much as sacrifice it at some crucial moment. After all, why would anyone want an eye as a wedding gift? And wouldn't any woman rather marry someone with both eyes, regardless of how much they love the person? I certainly wouldn't require my fiance to tear out his eye, I would try to prevent it! <p>His answer was "To give up half the light of the world to save the world."  So I think it's going to happen at Tarmon Gai'don.  He is going to lose an eye killing someone or saving Rand from something and by sacrificing his eye to do this he will be preventing the world from ending.</p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Lose an Eyeball??</b>
body:
First of.. I don't see Mat GIVING his eye for anyone.. I think that if it would be a wedding gift it would be a metephorical eye.. like his telescope or something. <p>I think it may be in reference to his ability to do...luck. Perhaps not.. but perhaps....</p><p>	MstrPropht<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- <br /><br />Lord Perrin &quot;Goldeneyes&quot; Aybara  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am the Diamond. Long live the 'king' of the wolves<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>about half light</b>
body:
I read somewhere (maby wotmania) a theory that sounded something like this:<p>There are two "light of the world", the sun and the moon. Mat will marry "the daughter of the nine moon" Mat will sacrifice his wife so he can save Rand.</p>


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>whats all this eye stuff???????</b>
body:
has anyone stopped to think that mats eye has nothing to do with it !!!????? he gives up half the light of the world , not his eye his eyes arent the light of the world!!!<br />it`s a bloody metaphor , D`oh <br />perhaps it has more to do with channelers , he cant free the damane from leashes to join the aes sedai so he gives up half the light of the world, <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
asuming that mat marry there's not much chance that he'll give up his wife. Besides could you explain how half the light of the world could mean his wife. What's the other half Rand? Hardly?<br />personally I think that he will lose it in torture because that's a more normall way


created: 2001-05-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>I've been thinking</b>
body:
I've been thinking about this alledged "eye" that Mat will have to lose.  His memories are essentially an eye into the lives of other people, and eye(I..eye..it's a joke.  aww forget it) personally I beleive that mat will lose his memories from other peoples lives, and in essence, all of his knowledge and fighting ability.  Somehow, while doing something important (possably saving rand) he will have this seared from him.  I also have a theory about how these memories got into his head, but thats a story for another day.<br />                                      sincerely,<br /> <img src="images/baalzamon.gif" /> the great coconut <img src="images/baalzamon.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-10 19:29:35
subject: <b>i got it i think....</b>
body:
Half ofthe light in mats world is given up ... Rand Being LTT reborn is the Lord of twilights (so he is the sun) ... and The daughter of the nine moons is his moon... well then... <br /><br />If we are going to strech this this far we had might aswell say that Matt is the earth and the other two taveren (Rand and Perrin) are his sun and moon.... i think this idea is far fetched i see it as a literal translation....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 18:42:44
subject: <b>Keep the eye!</b>
body:
Right. First off can I say how VERY much I do NOT want Mat to lose an eye!!! His eyes are waaayyy too pretty, I pray nightly that RJ has a different plan.<br /> Ok, why must 'losing half the light of the world' be a reference to having an eye gouged out? I mean, its not like his vision will be halved, just seriously impaired...ok, the visions of blood streaming down his face and balancing an eye on a balance scale seem to point that way, but its a bit obvious don't you think? Though I am at a loss to explain otherwise. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In reference to the main theory:<br />1) Why indeed would anyone give up their eye like that, and why would it be required to lead anybody?? And di I catch a veiled allusion to losing an eye during the marriage ceremony..??!<br /><br />2) Why would there be specific rituals for a marriage between a native and a foreigner? Such circumstances would never have occurred before and I can't see the Seanchan making allowances for the fact he comes from elsewhere, they'd expect him to conform to their ideals.<br /><br />3) I agree that Mat will be instrumental in bringing the Seanchan to Rand, otherwise why the connection?<br /><br />Despite Metallica_man2's excellent music preferences, i cannot agree with his theories. Of course, I can't remember what he said, but just that I don't agree. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~Seidazar~<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Seidazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Witch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Devoted Mat Follower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <i>It's been lovely but I have to scream now</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 17:34:02
subject: <b>An eye for...</b>
body:
I think that Matt, being Matt, would never give eye's, particularly his own, as a wedding gift (unless alluding to the eyes on a pair of dice).  It seems to me that an eye, which I'm sure is what &quot;half the light of the world&quot; means, is the kind of price that the Finn would accept for something that could save the world.


created: 2002-01-29 02:26:00
subject: <b>The Eye</b>
body:
Why does Mat &quot;have to&quot; lose an eye?<br /><br />Well, because so many things about his character (hat, spear, ravens, etc.) refer to the Norse god Odin, who had lost an eye. The Norse thing is important since Rand and Perrin also seem similar to other Norse gods.<br /><br />It didn't seem that this had been mentioned in this theory yet, though it has in others.<br /><br />And one eye sees &quot;half the light of the world&quot;, so...<br /><br />My thought on this: Odin lost the eye in order to be given  wisdom. Mat already has something similar: his memories. <br /><br />Is it possible he has already given up &quot;half the light of the world?&quot; Could his dying once (of the two times he is supposed to) fulfill the prophecy? Or something else?<br />


created: 2002-07-29 00:21:48
subject: <b>The Price of an Eye</b>
body:
I agree with others in that Mat would hardly give his eye to anyone. Having said that, I think that Mat's eye will be taken from him as the price for marrying Tuon and gaining the Seanchan armies (and/or an alliance) for Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />For this marriage to take place Mat will have to go to Seanchan. This is where all this will happen.<br /><br />What worries me however, is the fact that the male a'dam that Bayle Domon was supposed to toss in the sea was captured by the Seekers...


created: 2002-08-17 01:50:47
subject: <b>why?</b>
body:
if mat maries this bloody daghter of the bloody nine moons thene hes going to do it his way.mat always does it his way.if their custems say thet he has to give up an eye hell say oh well well just not do that k? plus why whould thay whant the leader of their armeis to be disabeled? whene in a milletary conflict you whant to have every advantage you can get. and may i remind you that mat isnt just some hob suposed to get a prinses, hes the reincarnation of someone big. a general. they whouldnt whant someone who actually knowes what the hek hes doing.


created: 2003-08-20 18:38:29
subject: <b>marrige</b>
body:
I don't think the seanchan will want their future Empress to marry a foriener who KIDNAPPED her in the first place,<br />but maybe that's just me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Come on!</b>
body:
This is all bloody spectaculation. What if...What would it be like? Make sure to have at least a hint of feedback!


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>What's wrong with simple explanations?</b>
body:
Is it so weird to think that maybe, just maybe Taim is a Dark Friend that has been tutored by one or more of the Forsaken?<p>   I think we can all agree that whether or not he's Demandred (wich will not be settled in the minds of certain people until we see them both in the same place, or one dies and the other doesn't {even then I think that some people will still cite reasons why they're the same guy}, or Robert Jordan has a chpater titled "TAIM GETS KILLED BY DEMANDRED, THEY AINT THE SAME GUY"), the man is almost certainly serving the Dark Lord of the Grave.</p><p>   All that I recall about the Black Ajah plans were that they were going to kidnap Taim. It may not have been necessay to use the 13 trick. All they'd have to do was say "Look you can be a servant to the Great Lord of the Dark, or you die right now." </p><p>   It's been commented on also that so many people were wondering why he looked different when he got to Caemlyn. Well could it be that he had been trying to disguise himself. I mean he was a wanted man afterall, and one that could channel no less.</p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-15 18:10:08
subject: <b>Um, Did I miss something?????</b>
body:
Where does it say (exactly please) that the BA was going to kidnap Taim and turn him to the DO's side???? I don't remember that being anywhere.<br /><br />And, is there any concrete proof that Taim is not Demandred? I haven't seen any, and we all know that Demandred is in the BT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 17:26:15
subject: <b>Kill Taimandred now and forever!</b>
body:
Taim and Demandred are not connected in any way. Remember when Kisman is running from the Far Madding Street Guards he reflects on Taim, Demandred, and Moridin each ordering them to kill Rand. That is evidence that Taim and Demandred aren&#8217;t the same guy. Whether Taim may have been a darkfriend to start with is unknown, but it is very possible that he has been bonded, though not by Demandred. If one of the forsaken, I vote for Mesaana. She is active in the White Tower, hiding as a sister (Danelle is a possibility, Mesaana was a teacher in the AoL, and Brown would suit her, besides which Danelle doesn&#8217;t offer anyone much deference). If Mesaana bonded Taim (consider Logain and other Ash&#8217;aman bonding Toveille and others of the sisters sent to invade the BT), he would be compelled to serve her wishes. It is in keeping with Mesaana&#8217;s style to work behind the scenes, letting others get her work done, but this is not Demandred&#8217;s way. He would want his adversary to know who they are facing. <br /><br />This also would not contradict Perrin&#8217;s sense of Taim smelling wrong, since he seems able to sense things connected with female Aes Sedai as the wolves do. Without question there is more to Taim than simply a false dragon who has finally decided to openly oppose Rand. That in itself names him darkfriend.  Anima Sedai posted that &#8216;we all know that Demandred is in the BT&#8217;. I disagree. Why would Demandred spend time there, at the same time that Osan&#8217;gar (Dashiva) was training there, and no mention of them connecting? They do recognize one another, so I don&#8217;t see it.<br /><br />As for the remnants who still like the Taimandred theory, let's run down the evidence to the contrary:<br /><br />1. At Dumai's Wells, Taim presses on Rand the concept of 'a proper honor guard'. Rand has picked out four Dedicated and four Soldiers, but Taim insists on him having some full Asha'man, and suggests Torval or Rochaid when Rand seems to randomly select Dashiva. We can assume that Taim has already begun preparing Torval, Rochaid, Gedwyn and Kisman as Rand's assassins, and wants at least one of them with Rand. Taim's reluctance to allow Dashiva (Osan'gar/Aginor, whom Demandred knows), indicates that Taim isn't aware of who Dashiva really is.<br /><br />2. When Demandred Travels to where Rand is cleansing Saidin, he initially notes the circle of Sarene, Corele and Flinn as nothing like a serious threat, and since he can see them clearly enough to name the women 'wildly beautiful' and 'stunning', surely if he were also Taim he would recognize the bald, limping old man as Damer Flinn. To suggest that Taim might not know Flinn well enough to recognize him is rejected by the fact that Taim picked Flinn to fight at Dumai's Wells, and Taim would surely note any of the men Rand chose to keep with him, at least to know whether any of them might prefer to serve Taim over Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 14:22:52
subject: <b>Taim/Demandred</b>
body:
Actually, there is a couple of points pro taim working for demandred. Remember, demandred has been told by the Dark One to be watching Rand, plus Demandred is well known for using &quot;friends&quot;. (this is mentioned in LoC). Demandred must obviously be watching Rand pretty closely, and the best way to do that would be through taim. It would be preposteous to think that Demandred doesn't know Taim, because Demandred has talked to the Fab 4(kisman etc) before, hence i hardly think he'd talk to those saps without talking to taim, who is quite obviously a dark friend


created: 2001-07-04 21:48:13
subject: <b>come on bury this bollox</b>
body:
when one of the asha`man in far madding remarks on how taim ordered him to kill rand , then demandred ordered the same , then moridin/ishy ordered the same we are cleary being told that none of these people are:<br /> a: privy to each others plans<br /> b: the same person ( d`oh )<br /> c: and not ( well obviously demandred and mordin )  proven darkfriends <br />Taim does not have to be a darkfriend !!! YET !!!!<br />he may at some stage turn but i tend to think if he was he would still be answering to the present Na`bliss ( mordin )<br />why give himself away if demandred was still going to tell them to kill rand ?????<br />demandred must be elsewhere , if he`s risking it all to win where would he be if we have forsaken in the seanchan and in the black tower ( ok he`s dead now )someone in the white tower , what about the whitecloaks or wieramon ,grendal must have interests in Shara i doubt demandred would be in the black tower never mind as taim . Perrin may smell , madness or the dark one from taim . please can we bury the taimandred rubbish once and for all !!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well, what is the deal with Moiraine being attacked</b>
body:
by a Draghkar (sorry about the spelling) at that little house where Vandene and Adeleas lived? Does that have a connection to the murder of Adeleas? How did the Draghkar know where to find Moiraine? Why attack Moiraine? One of those two or maybe both are not what they seem or seemed!Please help with more information! Someone in Wotmania suggested that Slayer killed Ispan and Adeleas, which seems very probable!


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Vandene done it</b>
body:
Vandene killed Ispan and her sister to put her beyond doubt with the others, and give her access and credibility with the others.  Remember, DF's are BAD PEOPLE.  Asmodean stilled his mom and gave her to the Myrddraal for a chew toy.  I think that is especially the kind of shocker that RJ loves, and that might be overlooked by WOTmaniacs. <p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject:
<b>I think that Adeleas and Ispan were killed by Talaan, the Atha&rsquo;an Miere woman in the red dress. Allow me to explain...</b>

body:
When Avienda made a gateway for all the women to use the bowl of the winds she saw a guy (Moridin) watching from a window. She asks one of the Atha&rsquo;an Miere women, in a red dress, to warn Elayne and Nynaeve. We later find out that the Atha&rsquo;an Miere woman, Talaan, does not send the warning as she is asked. Although this does not strictly mark her as a darkfriend, we have previous examples of incompetence being the mark of a darkfriend. Danelle, for example, seemed incompetent to Siuan Sanche for hiring too many masons. Some readers have suggested Weiramon as being a darkfriend, he has also proved himself incompetent.<p>Assume this red dressed sea folk woman is a darkfriend. We know she is in the same group as Adeleas and Ispan, so now she close to the scene of the crime and she has a potential motive (tying up loose ends). I just can&rsquo;t explain the tea yet, but I suspect she was involved somehow, being a darkfriend and all.<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Poison</b>
body:
I DISTINCTLY remember some sort of poison in Adeleas's and Ispan's tea.  This means something.  The killer had to know that she drank her tea with ALOT of honey thus the killer would be able to hide the poison.  Who would Adeleas trust to give her tea?  Surely her own sister!  This combined with the Draghkar at the house a few books prior looks like a neon sign pointing at Vandene.  I agree that Ispan was the primary target, she was made to suffer.  Adeleas was mearly a person who needed to be dealt with before Ispan could be killed.  Her death was quick and painless (well less pain then Ispan), she got her throat slashed.<br />     Some say that Slayer did it.  I think this HIGHLY unlikely, because of the use of the poison.  Slayer sure as hell wouldn't deliver tea and WAIT for the poison to take effect THEN hop in.  The thought of this is absurd.  I really don't even understand why there is such a fuss over this topic in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <b> Access </b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>couple of things (WH info)</b>
body:
The first thing is that I think that Slayer can be eliminated pretty effectively.  Recall the scene in WH (don't have book so no quotes) where Slayer killed the two people in Far Madding that were supposed to be Rand and Min but weren't.  Slayer (in Luc state of mind) recalls that he likes to kill AS but rarely is giving the chance.  He thinks about the two that he called killing the two black sisters that caught in the stone of tear.  He says something along cherishing the memory even if they were Isam's memories.  Which by the way shows that it is two different minds in one body that are aware of each other and switch who is in control.  Anyways, this shows that killing AS is a special event for Slayer and had he killed Aldeas and Ispam (sp?)  he would have thought about it while thinking about the two in the stone.<br /> <br />As for valdene, it is possible that she killed aldeas (sp?) and the black sister, but I don't think it is likely.  First, it seems her behavior is extreme about the loss and finding the killer.  Granted this could be explained by simply trying to avoid giving herself away by going overboard.  Secondly, she took every chance to give info about aldeas (the honey in the tea, the trust about drinking).  If I was in a situation where I had to suspect everybody I would immedietly go after the most likely and knowing people.  And I would not be put off by them being helpful, knowing they might try that to throw me off.  Of course, when was the last time we could accuse one of the characters of over analying something?


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>more comments</b>
body:
Ok, in response to the post above:<p>What if Vandene was TOLD to kill Ispan by any means possible EVEN if she had to kill her own sister, by a forsaken or some higher up DF (or the DO even).  I'd be DAMN sad at the loss of my sister!  She might have been forced to kill her but it doesn't mean she had to like it, and she could quite possibly be quite sad about this.<br />     In reference to the "being helpfull" part.  Well first off who would suspect she would kill her own sister.  SECONDLY she would have to show concern to find the killer and give as much help as possible, else look suspect herself.  She would have to tell the truth about her sisters habits etc. just incase any other sister there ALSO knew her habits and caught Vandene lying (thus blowing her cover and proving her BA)</p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <b> Access </b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sorry Vandene, you're under arrest</b>
body:
I really think it's Vandene.  <br />For all the reasons everyone wrote before plus...  <br />After the attack Elayne is rarely left alone.  But wouldn't it be spooky if she relies on Vandene, which is considered trustworthy, for backup, and Vandene turnes out to be BA.  Vandene and Faolain could surely overwhelm Elayne if they are linked...   Also consider the fact that Elayne seems to take counsel from Vandene in all sorts of matters (like the warder-bond masking trick), and with Nynaeve away, probably more so.  <br />Aviendha to the rescue!<br />(btw I really like Avi's p-o-v, they are SO funny!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>I believe it was slayer</b>
body:
That is about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sheepherder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />Pain in the Dark One's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br />Snot on the Door Knob to his hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Merilille</b>
body:
I thought it practically siad in one of the books that merilille was of the dark ajah. (correct me if i'm wrong)<br /><img src="images/perplexed.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mutch<br />&quot;Do onto others before they do onto you&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Talaan</b>
body:
I also remember thinking that Talaan was darkfriend b/c of her not passing on the warning.  Does anyone know of any supporting evidence? <img src="images/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Vandene the Villain <img src="images/devil.gif" /></b>
body:
Who better to look for the murderer than the culprit..Vandene!<p>Everyone will believe she is racked with pain(and possibly could be) and will be trying everything she can to track down the BA. No one will suspect her for an instant...and also with the help of the two novicies she can gather all their information and keep it to herself</p><p>When she entered the room housing Ispan with a tray of drinks Adeleas may have thought that her sister had come to relieve her of her duties...Perfect crime.(maybe)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">plant lover<br />tree hugger<br />man of many talents <br />and father of the world<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>No df in the Kin?</b>
body:
I think it's a little much to assume that there are no df's among the Kin.  There are DF's everywhere, including within the ranks of the children of the light, who are supposed to stand against the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sentrosi <br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Draghkar attack on Moiraine</b>
body:
I had always assumed Liandrin was behind the Draghkar attack on Moiraine at Adeleas and Vandene's house.  She disappeared at the same time on the trip from Fal Dara back to Tar Valon.<p>Dosen't Vandene have a Warder, Jaeme (mentioned in tGH) who helps foil that attack on Moiraine? If Vandene was behind the attack her Warder cannot be a Darkfriend too.  I find it hard to believe she could have kept the fact she was Black from both her sister and her Warder for such a long time.<br /></p>


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>What they do best</b>
body:
Well if Vandene could hide the fact that she was a dark friend from her sister I find it hard to think that her warder could figure it out. Remember that dark friends have a history of hiding themselves that goes back more than 3000 years. Kepping a secret like that from friends, family, and lovers is part of their stock in trade.<p>   Also recall that one of Liandrins crowd had a warder that had been unaware that his mistress was allied to Shaitan. He never even suspected until she disappeared with the other black sisters that left the tower. When he finally tracked her down he wanted to kill her.</p><p>   I always found the idea of Liandrin  being the one to set the Drackgar on Moiraines heels to be a very thin explanation. She's been shown to be more of a city gal, so the idea that she managed to track after Moiraine and Lan (without getting spotted by Lan) is hard to swallow. For her to have known where Moiraine was headed is also kinda weak. It makes more sense to me that one of the two sisters was a black ajah.</p><p>   By the way what's so hard to believe about Vandenes warder being a dark friend? If he did nothing to save Moiraine or Lan then that would reveal his status as a bad guy (and put his mistress under suspicion as well). Once the plan went south the only smart move would be to help out. Otherwise they'd have to take on two Aes Sedai and two (or 3) warders. Not too bright.</p><p>   Perhaps the case is that one of the sisters warders (Vandene or Adelas) is the dark friend. Best way to hide after all. So if he (Vandenes warder) came to deliver tea, then Adelas might trust him enough to take it. Since he had no beef with her he poisons her and slashes her throat quick and easy. Than takes his time with Ispan.</p><p>   By the way why hasn't any arrow of suspicion been pointed at Adelas? Perhaps she was a black ajah herself and killed quickly so as to take any suspicion off of her. It may have been Vandene who did it and has to live with the guilt. Hadnan Kadere still felt remorse after years had passed since he killed his sister, why would Vandene be any different?</p><p>   TO mark the Kin as being dark free is also a bit naive. They thought that they'd kept their secret from the Tower and were wrong, so why should they suddenly be right that they have no dark friends among their number?</p><p>   The windfinders are also suspect. Anyone of them could know some nasty tricks. I think Shalon (the lesbian windfinder that is being used by Cadsuane) shows us that they aren't above betrayal. Learning the art of poisons isn't too hard if you have a good source. Besides if there are darkfriends among them, then we know it's at least possible that one might be a student of a forsaken who may have taught the mask of mirrors trcik so that they could get close enough to kill Adelas.</p><p>   I still say that Vandene is the most likely source here. She knows enough about her sister to have pulled it off at the very least. If she did the deed then she has the perfect cover. That of the grieving sister light bent on finding the woman who killed said sister and avenging that death is a great cover to have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-15 18:52:55
subject: <b>The Dark Kind of Kin</b>
body:
I agree that we cannot expect that the Kin would have no Friends of the Dark among them.  After all, they can be found anywhere, high or low.  Recall the Prologue to TGH, where Bors notices all the people who have turned up for the gathering: the AS, the Sea Folk, the guard from Andor.  And the Tinker.  That's right, a Tinker can be a Darkfriend.  How could that be, you ask.  After all, the Tinkers believe in the Way of the Leaf, being peaceful-like and searching for their song.  How could any one of them be evil enough to follow the Dark One?  In the same breath, we can ask, how can anyone of the Kin follow the Dark One??? Now, I still believe that Vandene is Ispan and Adeleas' killer (that whole Drahkar thing just screams BA). But who says she had to have done it alone?  Or that she even is BA???  Just read one second.  What if....what if the primary target was Adeleas?  And the killer was a Darkfriend.  Vandene comes in to relieve her sister of the questioning, and finds her sister dead, and Ispan still tied up and trying to escape.  Vandene would then assume that a DF killed her sister, and could take out all her frustrations on the Black Sister, taking her time in killing her.  Who says both murders had to have been done by 1 person???? <br /><br />Anima Sedai<br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 17:51:25
subject: <b>Vandene?</b>
body:
I find it hard to imagine RJ using an internal POV to misdirect or confuse readers to something he intends to spring on us later. Words spoken one character to another can always be lies, or dissembling at any rate, but in Sea Fold and Kin, (WH 194), Vandene is bringing Kirstian and Zarya to Elayne because they &quot;have been thinking over events in Harlon Bridge.&quot; The next part of the passage is internal: 'That was where her sister had been murdered. And Ispan Shefar, but as far as Vandene was concerned, the death of a Black sister counted with the death of a rabid dog.'<br /><br />Sorry, Vandene isn't black, and if she had discovered that Adeleas was, she would have said so. Also, if Vandene was the murderer, why take the two new/old novices to Elayne when they came to her privately to discuss their conclusions? She could certainly have dealt with them in other ways.<br /><br />All other background comments regarding Vandene mark her as extremely careful of thought, so when on the next page it says 'even Vandene was sure the Kin numbered no Darkfriends among them.', I believe it at face value, even if the rest of the paragraph didn't explain that if there were Darkfriends among the Kin, then there would have been more knowledge of the Kin among the BA, certainly as far as Ispan.<br /><br />No, I think what it presented by Kirstian and Zarya is the simple truth. It is Careane, Sareitha, or Merilille. I vote for Sareitha myself. The discussion between her and Elayne in The Streets of Caemlyn, the undisguised dislike between Sareitha and Birgitte, leave me distasteful of the woman. It seems she is hoping to gain information about Elayne's enemies, or how Elayne intends to deal with those enemies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-03 19:21:54
subject: <b>A simple why it shouldn't be Vandene</b>
body:
RJ has laid out lots of evidence why Vandene could be the killer and BA.<br />That's whats does it for me. When RJ lay obvious tracks, he does so to draw attention from the real thing.<br />What is real he then later lets in the story bits by bits. Like that Taim-Demandred thing, at the beginning, alot of people believed it, including me.<br />Why? because RJ wanted it so. He has, if you hadn't noticed, a black sense of humor, which is why is so glad about Aiel-humor.<br />And casting suspison upon Vandene, Adeleas sister, is really fitting for him.<br />It's perfect. In every sense. This is why it shouldn't be Vandene. And reall, following this line of thougt, it might not be a BA after all...


created: 2001-06-05 20:44:36
subject: <b>Might not be BA????</b>
body:
The killer might not be Black Ajah??? Meaning, what exactly?<br /><br />Whitecloaks???? It's about time they showed up again, I can tell you that.  And it would be fitting if the Children of the Light were following Elayne and her posse...but why stop with just 2 AS???  Why not kill them all, and all the women that can channel??? Nope...Not WC.<br /><br />Um....Maybe Adeleas was BA, and someone discovered it????  Wait...Have we already determined that Adeleas wasn't BA???<br /><br />Confused as always,<br />Anima Petrovna Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 09:44:20
subject: <b>The killer not Black Ajah?</b>
body:
The most frequently presented theory where the killer is not Black Ajah is of course where Vandene killed Adeleas because Adeleas is Black Ajah. The problem with that theory is that, when they first inspect the murder scene, Vandene says &#225;t least two things to Elayne and Nynaeve that would almost certainly not pass through &quot;the Oath of not lying&quot;, if Vandene was indeed the killer and not Black Ajah.<br /><br />I know of no other working theories where the killer is not Black Ajah, but the main reason for that, is actually a question that is seldom answered even assuming the killer WAS black / darkfriend.<br /><br />WHY?<br /><br />It's nice if a theory of this or that killer at least could be accompanied by such an explanation...<br /><br />The interrogations had been going on for quite some time, and I find it hard to believe that there had been no opportunity to kill Ispan earlier, if she was simply killed to &quot;make an example&quot;. <br /><br />The only other reason I can think of is that Ispan was stilled somehow and therefore would spill her guts (and possibly already had) to Adeleas. It's still such a stretch though that I can't believe it would result in such a controlled murder.<br /><br />No, I can find no reason for a killing at all. Anyone?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 15:38:42
subject: <b>Just because no on else seemed to remember...</b>
body:
The Windfinder that didn't pass on Aviendha's warning was Kurin; not Talaan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://mirrorsoul.net<br />http://fragile.mirrorsoul.net</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 08:22:26
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
Vandene could be the murderer and BA someone warded the Draghkar that attacked Moiraine, and I think Lan says the only reason he and Jaem saved her is that Moiraine made him so angry that he had to &quot;go work the forms&quot; any Darkfriend would kill their sister or brother and she had opportunity. They seem to do everything together so why did she leave her sister alone in a shack with a Black Sister a long way from the rest of the group. Surely Adeleas had enough brains to be suspicious of a relative stranger, even another Aes Sedai bringing her a cup of tea in the middle of an interogation with a BA unless....


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>I agree to an extent</b>
body:
Most of what you have said is probably true.  I've never really considered that the forces of the Light could have gone into the Blight and wiped out the remnants of the DO's forces.  But I suppose we don't have a series of books if they had, so I'm glad they didn't!


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mind reader</b>
body:
Man, you have read my mind.  I have always thought the good guys could only win the last battle because the creator planned it so from the beginning.  Every little mischief the forsaken do, it forces Rand to fulfill another prophecy.  So the forsaken are doing what the creator wanted them to do.


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
<br />If Rand would have lived in different place or if Rands real parent's would have died, then the WoT universe would be different!!!<p>But would anyone write the book about the world that has no choice but to die!!!!</p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>One Comment</b>
body:
There's a very good reason for why the Lightfriends didn't ransack the Blight or wipe out the Trollocs. <p>They were busy with the male channelers. The Breaking took place then, and if Ishamael was stunned at the speed in which LTT went made, doubtlessly others went completely insane very quickly as well. </p><p>Remember rand at Rhuidean? All the falling buildings, the channelers gathering up Angreal for the Aiel and so on? </p><p>We can assume that of Age of Legends channelers, half were male and half were female. And Asmodean told us that the average male was twice as strong as the average female. </p><p>Well, the men were going bonkers, and were twice as strong as the women. </p><p>They had their hands full. </p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Predestination or Free Will?</b>
body:
For the most part, I agree that something is guiding everyone's actions. It's just not random enough to be otherwise.<p>Of course, free will is a part of the program. The choice scene for this is using the Portal Stone to get to Falme in tGH.</p><p>"He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, sailer, gleeman, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in his eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Camelyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. _I have won again, Lews Therin_." (tGH, "What Might Be," pp. 531-2)</p><p>The different Reflections of the Wheel show what have been: Rand mad, Rand dying, Rand bowing to the Shadow. In the dreams in EotW, Ishy makes the comment that he and Rand have fought countless times before, and that the Dragon did turn to the Shadow in the past. Whether Ishy is faking or not-face it, he's always been a bit around the bend... <img src="images/devil.gif" />-it's safe to say that Rand in previous incarnations either swore openly or was forced to serve the DO.</p><p>Hrm, I'm starting to ramble...better wrap it up. To make a long and pointless post more to the point, there is an amount of free will acting in WoT; it's just not primary compared to fate and prophecy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hey the good guys don't always win</b>
body:
There are plenty of books out there where something screwy happens in the last minute.  They might win, but with a price.  And if you dislike the fact that the good guys win look at the fact that their is alot more to the story then the last battle.  The last Battle is more like a happening possibly books and books away.  There are many other parts to the story which make the book great.


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Free Will</b>
body:
They have free will, because they can stop the prophecies from happening by killing themselves but would any sane or even insane person do that?<p><img src="images/pharoah.gif" /> <br /></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>On subject of free will...</b>
body:
Actually I think the series have a conception of free will that resembles christianities. I.e. you can do the choice but if you make the wrong one it all goes to hell! Also it resembles islamic thinking in that everybodies lives are somehow predestined yet they should still do their best to behave etc etc, actually it doesn't make sense to me, someone care to explain?<br />Yet I must say as I have before...there exist infinate varieties of the wheel, we just happen to get to read the one where everything works out well...no wait I mean gives a good long story <img src="images/wink.gif" />.


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Actually He Never swore</b>
body:
Just one small point Rand has never in any of his lifetimes sworn to the Dark One.  He states it quite clearly during the battle over Falme "I will never serve you, Father of Lies.  In a thousand lives, I never have.  I know that.  I'm sure of it".  <br />            The Great Hunt (page 666)<br />


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Missing the Point</b>
body:
The key point to remember is that the Creator is outside of the wheel--in other words, outside of time.  Thus, the Creator knows everything that is going to happen.  He did not have to "program" anything, he merely has to know what will happen.  The prophecies are open-ended enough that they can be fulfilled in many different ways.  There is, of course, free will.  The only sense in which the characters are "predestined" is that what will happen, will happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paladin, defender of excellence in morality, literature, and writing</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Wheel Weaves</b>
body:
. . . as the Wheel wills, if I recall correctly.  I suspect that the free will/predestination stuff has a happy medium (in this world as well as in WOT!) -- namely, Rand can do what he likes, but the Wheel will eventually force him around to the course it wants him on.  In a sense, Rand's thread in the weave moves around a bit, but it still gets where it's supposed to go.  Or, to put it another way:  Rand has a destination, whether he knows it or not; how he gets there is up to him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Old Habits...</b>
body:
I don't mean to oversimplify matters, but all throughout Robert Jordan's body of work in the WOT series, he has borrowed from mythologies and legends of other cultures, past and present.  Why is it so hard to see that the overall storyline having a predetermined feel comes directly from the Bible, where everything that has happened and that will happen has been mapped out in advance by God?  It is not that "free will" does not figure into the equation at all, it is just that where things need to happen, they do.  The Creator has been planning for this conflict for ages and ages, since before the dawn of time, and just like in the book of Revelation, He knows how it will all end.  That having been said, even being certain of the outcome does not cheapen the read or make it less enjoyable, in either case.  Thank you for listening...


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Who controls the Wheel</b>
body:
I think there is a lot of small insinuations in the series to show that while the all is going according to prophecy, prophecy is not fact.  Moirane said a ta'veren such a Rand could rip the Age of Lace for all time.  Verin said the writing in Fain's prison at Fal Dara was Dark Prophecy.  Mat was told if he did not goto Rhuiden he would sidestep the threads of fate (or something to the effect).  While ta'veren bend the threads to their will, they are also bent to the fate of the Pattern and greater Ta'veren.  The last point was that I do not believe the Pattern are the thoughts of the Creator.  From my understanding the great serpant and the Pattern are neutral (neither good nor evil).  While will is not utterly 'free' in the series, I think it does not have to bend to the will of the pattern.  Balefire changes the pattern .. not even the Dark One can sidestep time.


created: 2001-05-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fate and Free Will and The Wheel of Time</b>
body:
I think that there are certain events that have to occur in a certain way, simply because their importance is way beyond human rationalization.  These are the events that are usually determined by fate, out of pure necessity.  For example, Tarmon Gai'don.  If the forces of evil, namely the Dark One here, are powerful enough to rival the Creator himself, how could any human mind claim to be able to know all thoughts, intentions, ablilities, etc, of the Dark One? Or the thoughts, intentions, ablities, of the Creator?  Perhaps even the human mind has a limit, and there are things that cannot be understood.  These events get labeled as fate, because they simply cannot be understood in any other way.  Thus, fate can be looked at as a means of protecting people from unforseen catastrophies, whose alternative results could also be beyond reason.  Every prophecy that was fulfilled never logically progressed in any of the ways one might have began to imagine it to upon first learning of the prophecy.<p>However, regarding events that are within the capabilities of human reason, there has to be a signifact amount of free will.  If not, how could all the "supposed" worlds of the portal stones exist?  If everything was completely left up to fate, then there would only be one "supposed" world:  what did, could ONLY have, and will happen.  Perhaps certain "checkpoints" in a thread are set in stone, but how one achieves that checkpoint is completely up to them.</p><p>As a result, I don't think that fate is a concept to counter people's free will, but rather a concept to compliment it in protecting them from things which they cannot even begin to understand.  If, in fact, the human mind can understand everything that drives the universe (which I highly doubt), then simple logic would suggest that it should be able to explain events of fate in terms of free will.</p>


created: 2001-05-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Weaving the threads</b>
body:
If the world were like are's, than you would be perfectly right, and that sort of prophesy would either be impossible, or we would have no free will.  However, the WoT world introduces some new variables, or actualy two: The Creator, and the Dark One.  Both of these are capable of "touching the patter" to make sure that things come out the way that they want.  Often this is by altering probablilities, to make different world lines converge in phase-space (its OK is you have no idea what phase space is) and so force reality into what they want it to be.  Also, remember when Matt tried to leave Tear way back in tDR?  He wanted to, and because he wanted to be can tell he had free will.  However, he didn't have free action, since "the pattern" was able to keep him in Tear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 15:20:29
subject: <b>Similar to Eddings...</b>
body:
In the context of the little things that happen in the Belgariad and Mallorean - e.g., in the Mallorean, it did not matter what Zandramas would to to stop Garion and the gang, the two opposite prophecies worked it out so that the Children of Light and Dark would arrive at the preordained site at the exact time necessary to have the final showdown (dare I say Last Battle?).  The one difference I see though is the concept of being ta'veren; it seems to bring a bit of luck into things, in that ta'veren can twist the Pattern around them, so that maybe something that was supposed to happen did NOT happen because of the twisting of the Pattern.<br /><br />swampyd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">swampyd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And so it begins...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 16:47:48
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
There Is free will. Remember when Rand travelled the Portal Stones to go at Falme? He saw the many possible lives he could have lived, and in each one, the DO won. So it is POSSIBLE for the DO to win. Rand just has to do what he thinks best, and hope. He ma still loose, winning isn't a forgone conclusion, my friends!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 21:24:15
subject: <b>Sheperd</b>
body:
Luckily, we have the Creator, who keeps track of everything, and can make sure that the little things don't change anything important, or if they do, he can take the pattern by the scruff of the neck and put it back where it belongs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 18:12:41
subject: <b>Free will or ultimate knowledge?</b>
body:
Let me see if i can condense this down to readable form... first off i believe that all of the characters have free will in the WOT series. Let me explain. first off i think it's safe to assume the the Creator has the status of a god. In which case, he can see everything that has ever happened and ever will, there is no past or future for him, it is all the present. Also i believe the the Dark One does NOT have the status of a god. so he can't see the future, in which case he continues to struggle in the belief that he will somehow accomplish victory over the light. what i'm getting at is the fact that Rand makes his own decisions as well as the others. This being done by the fact the the Creator can see everything and so the prophecies are written through the influence of the Creator to stress or pull attention to a particular person or event, in this case Rand. Rand has already made his own decisions in the past, though there is no past to the Creator, so the Creator knows that Rand would make these decisions without prophecy, but he instigates prophecy in this particular time i believe because it is a climax in human existence and is therefore stressed by either showing that the Dark One is able to win if people are not willing to stand against him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />, or that the Light is always triumphant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />. in either case i believe that these events are already known by the Creator as well as the outcome and he is merely using prophecy to guide Rand and others to do as they would anyway, but therefore also drawing attention to the climactic event to take place. I would appreciate any responses to my &quot;theory&quot; on this debate. thanx.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 18:47:43
subject: <b>Gonna have to disagree with this one...</b>
body:
This seems scattered, it made sense in my head though...<br /><br />Ok, first off, prophecy will happen no matter what.  If you change the situations, the prophecy will still find a way to be fulfilled.  Take Min's visions, for instance.  They're a form of prophecy, because they are always true, no matter what.  She can interfere and stop it from happening in the way it would have, but it will happen in a different way.  I think this is confusing you.  I know it's not hard to do when it comes to the Wheel of Time, so it's not really a big deal, but as others have posted, the characters in Randland (yeah, that name's cool) do actually have free will.  On a side note, I like the idea of predestination, because then you don't have to worry about screwing up majorly, because your overall life is already determined, but not all of it.  I admit, I haven't put a lot of thought into it, and I tend to babble on and on without making much sense or coming to a sensible conclusion, but oh well. I think that's all I have to say...


created: 2002-10-10 00:08:28
subject: <b>*knocks head against wall frustratedly*</b>
body:
First of all, OW!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Second, Richard Althor gets it, you just aren't listening!<br />If The Creater in WOT is the equivilant to God and there is no past or future for him, only the present Then the prophecies aren't as constricting as people are thinking. The prophecies aren't saying it's supposed to happen a certain way but that it will. The Creator already knows what Rand is going to do and that is what has been put down.<br />I have something that explains this better than I do, just let me find it.<br /><br />Thirdly, Zandramas???<br />(to swampyd)<br />I think you mean Zedar but I'm not sure. I'll get back on that too.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />K, that's it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-15 15:29:54
subject: <b>not really</b>
body:
Your being to linear in your thinking.  As even Rand has figured out the profecy only outlines the conditions under which an event may happen.  If all of those conditions are not met then the event does not happen.  Also with profecy there is the problem of interpretation.  That is why it is usually so vague (if you don't by that check out Nostradomus) they can be read in more than one way.  This is why Moraine thought he needed to lead the spears of tear against Illian and unite the south under him.<br /><br />So as with any person the choices you make define the outcome you get.  Had he chosen Moraines way who is to say that the world whould have failed?  It would be a different story, but who would know? And would Rand have said he had any other choice than to act the way he did?<br /><br />You have to remember that man is not a rational animal he is a Rationalizing animal.  He will find any excuse to justify his actions, espiacially &quot;I had No choice&quot;.


created: 2003-10-22 18:07:54
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
The point that there is a difference between ultimate knowledge and no free will does not work.  In order to be all knowing there has to be a predetermined sequence of events that cannot be changed.  The Creator cannot know how everything happens, if at some point in the future, a person becomes aware of the control over his life and decides that they are not going to do it or they are not going to do it in the way the Creator expects.  At that point he does not have knowledge of what happens.<br />As to Falme, that shows what could have been had they made different choices but the point is, in the current world, they never made those choices.  They never would have become a soldier in Camlyn they would never chose to grow old in the Two Rivers.  Just because those were the results of decisions they could have made does not mean that they actually could make them.<br />As to Randland being busy with the breaking, why didn't they destroy the Blight with Hawkwing, or the Covenant of the Ten Nations?  It does not make sense.<br />All and all, there has been no suggestion that anyone has ventured away from the pattern preset.  The Creator coming along and jerking the pattern back into place cannot make sense.  There is no tampering that could fix a problem.  Each action has way too many consequences for, at a later date in time, for the Creator to force a ta'veren to take an action.<br />If something is delayed for an hour, many different people could or lives be affected, and those lives would affect the lives of those around, ad infintim.  The resulting &quot;fix&quot; by the Creator would be impossible.  By having to change the lives of all those effected, he would have to change everything, and therefore prophecy would not be possible


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Possible, but...</b>
body:
This is a very nice theory, and it is very possible indeed, although I still think this third face is, instead of someone from before LTT or after Rand, it is someone in the time between LTT and Rand: Guaire Amalasan. For the prove about Amalasan being a reincarnation of LTT, look at Moridin_2000's Guaire Amalasan theory.


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Everything that has previously occured remains the same</b>
body:
RJ said that everything that the taint has caused will still be there now that it is cleansed so we may see more of this other fellow?


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Coooool...</b>
body:
Ok I really like this theory since I've thought about it myself. That would be a great reason for the male channelers to go mad talking to somebody in the future!


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hrm... idle wonderings.</b>
body:
I was thinking while reading this that couldn't the third face or person, whichever you want to call them be both Rand and Lews Therin combined maybe? Mayhaps they combine to be one, so they are not the same, making a different person if not a new outward appearance? Just a random thought.


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>What about Min's veiwing?</b>
body:
As I recall (and I haven't read any of the books for a looong time so forgive me if I'm hopelessly wrong), Min once told Rand something to the effect that two men would become one.  Or that the two would have a fight and one would win.  Or something like that . . . It's been so long I can't even remember which book it's in.  Now, if Lews Therin is already in there, who's the third guy?  Either this is some interloper (Moridin seems to be the going theory) or it's the product of Rand and Lews Therin merging.  Now personally I hope that Rand stays close enough in the present to remember who Avienda, Min, and Elayne are, but also manages to pick up a few Age of Legends tricks with the Power, which would be a nice little surprise for renegade Asha'man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 12:50:58
subject: <b>New Light on the Subject</b>
body:
Here is my thought on the subject.  If you recall when Birgitte is ripped from the World of Dreams she can remember all of her past to a certain degree.  What if the taint was breaking down the walls to the person's past lives.  Birgette said that when a person is spun out into the waking world the remember nothing of their past lives. Also Mat is remembering past lives of his if more infrequent. This is just my theory.


created: 2001-09-07 16:19:26
subject: <b>Nooooo, not really...</b>
body:
I think the man in Rand's head is Lews Therin reborn, in his head. Not Guiare, Lews Therin from the 2nd age or anything. Just simply Lews Therin reborn in his head. As for Min's viewing about two men fighting and one winning, read my theori that will hopefully come if one of those very very nice admins, who work so hard just for us, posts it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 19:27:55
subject: <b>What about the taint?</b>
body:
The male Aes Sedai did not go mad before the taint<br />this would suggest that maybe you theory is being <br />carried out by the taint, I'm not saying your theory is <br />wrong or right, just curious about the taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Dagashei <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> lord_tiger_vii@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> dagashei@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Observer of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 02:14:14
subject: <b>Cadsuane's motive</b>
body:
I have seen many theories use Cadsuane's comments about it being common for male channelers to hear voices.  The theorists assume Cadsuane is merely speaking from experience.  I think instead that Cadsuane makes this comment as a way to get to Rand, part of her method of making him think he needs her (a plan that succeed in WH).  Her POV supports this, her every move seems to be calculated towards Rand asking her to counsel him.<br /><br />I make this comment after reading many Rand-related theories that mention Cadsuane.  The rest of your theory seems quite sound.<br /><br />p.s. I detest smileys<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-01 18:49:37
subject: <b>I don't agree with the theory.</b>
body:
According to this theory, the taint causes being able to talk to former selves and future selves. That's fine, and it makes sense. But Rand's future self would not have the taint on saidin, therefore could not talk to Rand. Also, it couldn't be Rand before Lews Therin because likewise, there was no taint on Saidin before LTT becuase, well you know the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-08 23:55:47
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Very possible if a single thread is the same person woven repeatedly into the pattern then there is a link from one person to them all. Even if the taint is cleansed there is still the effects that would linger from it. If the taint can soak into a persons body enough to corrupt thought and flesh then the taint should or could not be healed by its cleansing. Therefore he should be able to continue the link with his previous self, Lews, and his future self.<br /><br />I like this twist, it is kind of interesting to add an aspect of time being linked into multiple poiunts at once.


created: 2002-08-20 16:38:40
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
I didn't have time to read the others comments on board but so I don't know if it has been said, but Lews Therin became crazy right away, such was the strike back of the DO, even if your theory is right, Lews Therin couldn't have talked to his other lifes as Rand is doing to now.<br /><br />Santi


created: 2002-09-05 11:14:50
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
i think this is a cool theory, but for some reason i don't think that that's what it is.  personally, i haven't read any of the theories concerning the 3rd face that has really convinced me.<br />the thing that i think would be cool would be this: if the 3rd face is a new dragon, then it's probably that rand al'thor is to the new dragon as LTT is to rand.  rand's battle against the do will have started to become a legend, and so the new dragon will have some idea how it was done, even if he doesn't know the specifics.  what if, during the last battle, rand had no clue what to do, but then the 3rd face told him how to do, since in his time, it's already been done?  i'm not putting that forth as a theory--i think that that's not what's going to happen.  but wouldn't it be cool?


created: 2003-06-13 21:14:17
subject: <b>Oh yes!</b>
body:
Wow, that's quite a theory! I really never thought of that before, and I think you've got something. It is also possible that the third is as you said Lews Therin's former self, and there is no Rand's future self because they are only in the Third Age, so there can only be three selves; one for each age. <br />-Zerinia<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Zerinia Faershiam<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />129 w 87 tree<br />Murrinell Wood, WE, 98833<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 22:57:46
subject: <b>Great theory, but.......</b>
body:
I really like this theory, but my only problem with it is that if it is like you say that Rand and LTT are talkin to each other in 2 different times at the same time, Then why would LTT allways rant about Iilyena (sp?) bein dead, since he didn't learn about it until right at the very end when Ishmael healed him and then subsequently killed himself.


created: 2003-08-02 09:47:16
subject: <b>Hmmm . . .</b>
body:
Are we sure Lews Therin's really dead?  TEOTW preview never said LEWS IS DEAD, it just said that there was silence and he was nowhere to be seen.  It is entirely possible, and I believe probable, that Lews Therin wandered around after creating Dragonmount.  That would certainly explain his rants about Ilyena.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 16:40:56
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I like the theory, it is an interesting idea. I don't however see it happening in the story. But I like the theory! <br /><br />Oh, and my view on Min's viewing is not that Rand and Lews Therin will physicaly join but that they will become more mentally connected as has happened throughout the series. Rand will still be his own person with new little bits of Lews Therin floating around, changing him in little ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-01 14:13:07
subject: <b>just like to say</b>
body:
Early in your theory you said that it is possible to assume that Rand and Lews are having the same conversation in two different time periods; I thought the same at some point when i first read the series, however after my second reading you have to come to the conclusion that Lews wife and children are dead (as he babbles about it almost constantly) and he didnt become aware of this until moments before he killed himself.   All these conversations would be impossible if this were the case, yes?


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>My quick thought</b>
body:
I have always considered the One Power to be the power drawn from the creator. I mean, the OP drives the wheel, so it seems only logical it is drawn from the creator. Its all open to inturpretation, of course. Otherwise, I think that theory is pretty sound. Who needs light friends when you have the dragon? =) If I had may way, however, Perrin would go wonder off somewhere unimportant (he's boring anyway), while Rand, Mat, and Narg, all wielding this Creator Power, defeat the dark one once and for all/seal him up/whatever. <img src="images/myrddraal.gif" /> =


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>One Power is neutral</b>
body:
In response to the other guy on blackboard, the one power in my opinion is the neutral power.  Evil and good can use it, but it is not as powerful as either of the pure powers.<br />Hey theres an idea, the one power is a mixture of the true power and Rands secret power, I don't know how that would work, but it has a nice feel to it.<br />         So in other words, the one power is in the middle, and the true power, and the creator's power push from each side turning the wheel.<br />         It would certainly explain the whole ying yang symbol <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> for the aes sedai in the age of legands.  Just everybody put away their bias' for a few seconds and ponder it for a few seconds.<img src="images/wink.gif" /><p>This is a little extra from me</p><p>Kid B.<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Kid b, you hit the nail on the head IMO there has to be a  balance or the wheel would be thron off its axis.... and maybe the reason why so few ppl use it is because it takes away form the Do and the Creator directly and too many ppl using it would tear the fabric... ok im of track all was gunna say is i agree...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>one power is creators</b>
body:
I'd have to say that the One Power comes from the creator.<p>The reason that the evil guys can use the One Power is because isn't there a saying in the books that no one can be so far gone in the shadow that they cannot turn to the light? or maybe not, can't remember.<br />True Power bad, One Power good. Bad guys can use good power because the creator allows anyone to turn to the light (except maybe the dark one) even if it is for a few moments while they use the good power.</p><p>And could someone tell me where it says in the books that the true power is more powerful than the one power. I must have missed it during my readings and I'd like to have a read of that bit.</p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>I don't think so.....</b>
body:
This has to rank up there with the top ten heinous theories of all time.  What, pray tell, does thirteen Forsaken <br />have to do with your supposed theme of threes?  Thirteen is a prime number so we caould associate it with just<br /> about any other number we wanted to, couldn't we?  And from where did the idea originate that the Sea Folk are<br /> part of the Aiel?  You might have had a case if you said Aiel, Tinkers and Jenn.   This is just another<br /> manifestation of the hideous Lightfriend theory.  Call it "Lightpower."  Then call it "forgotten."<p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Some additions...</b>
body:
Another interesting theory...why do you have to be so creative now...?<br />As for the Aiel,Tinker,Sea Folk, threesome. Actually the poster probably refers to the people living on the islands (the Athan'Miere spend ALL their time on ships). The Ammayar (umm... correct me if I'm wrong) believe in the "Water Way", everything is an illusion that must end... That's whta I remember... might add something later...


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sorry, but your waaaaaay off</b>
body:
About that threesom, yes, he probably meant the Amayar...<br />The One Power is the power that drives the wheel, so I guess that makes it good or neutral, but that doesn't matter cause...<br />Being ta'veren is much more important and powerful than being a channeler.  It's like in Dragonlance, with Takhisis massing all those armies, but loosing to that bunch of Heroes of the Lance...<br />Also, I'm starting to think of Mordeth as an Evil Ta'veren.<br />Think of the way he came to Aridhol, a completely normal city, within days rose up to be king's counselor and made all around him evil...   sounds like ta'veren work to me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>About Mordeth</b>
body:
As I recall, it didn't take him days to do it.  Over a long period of time he wheedled, peddled influence, and gained power until he was the most important counselor to the King.  This was no fast-acting cyanide he wrought on Aridhol, no, it was the slower (but in the end, just as deadly) poison of greed and pride.  Perhaps Mordeth is/was an evil ta'varen; of course there are evil ta'varen--ta'varen are used to balance the battern, and if there is an overabundance of light then evil must be spun out.  But the point is that most of Mordeth's success was due to his craftiness.<p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paladin, defender of excellence in morality, literature, and writing</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>ta'varen vs True Power</b>
body:
I think the Creator's gift is/are ta'varen<p>The DO's gift is access to the True Power.</p><p>Remember Mirien and Beidomon found a source outside of the pattern...of a power that both men and women could channel.  This has got to be the True Power and this stems from the DO.</p><p>I think that in order for the two sides to be evenly matched the Creator uses ta'varen and the DO the True Power.</p><p>The One Power is a balancing force as it comes from the universe itself and turns the Wheel of Time.  It is a neutral force that can be tapped into by either side.</p><p>I don't think there is a Creator version of the True Power, the ability to alter the Pattern via ta'varen is the power needed to counter the True Power and although it may seem ta'varen swirls on the outset are weaker...they are in the long run far stronger as their effects are felt widely.</p><p>That's my 2 cents worth.</p>


created: 2001-06-21 16:51:45
subject: <b>............MAYBE!</b>
body:
ok i've started 2 raed the guide and it gave me quite a good idea about this...<br />do u remember that min told rand - or maybe some1 else - that she sees lights around him tring 2 swallow the darkness and that the darkness swalows it but when all of the 3 of them stand together then they beat the darkness in2 the 'defeted but still fighting mode'?<br />so i think that he couldn't realy KILL the DO but that he will instead capture it...as the guide sais not forever!<br />so i'm thinking...the guide said that the more that the wheel will need 2 fix the more taveren will come in2 hte world!<br />so maybe he will learn the Creators True Power (CTP) when they will all be together with cadsuan -although RJ implys that cadsuan.......some thing else-but i think that when they are all together then she will join the circle with rand and somehow mat and perrin (maybe the 3 ladies 2) and teach him 2 use the CTP...<br />about the ending...read harry potter...the closer he is 2 the DO the more hte Wound in his side will hurt and bleed...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 20:27:15
subject: <b>The True power vs The ONE Power</b>
body:
I agree with the secret power idea, but in a different way.  I agree that the one power is the creators counter to the True power. I think that once upon a time, Saidin and Saidar were one.  But for some reason, (maybe it was too much for one person to use the One power), the Creator split the one power in two.  One side for Females, one side for Males.  I believe that the true power is the same except the DO never split it, and that is why it is so strong.  Further more, I think that in the end, Rand will gain control of the FULL One Power, Meaning Both Sides.  Maybe it'll be called Saidinar or somthing heh.  Well, that's my two cents, pick away at it!  ^_^


created: 2001-08-20 16:29:17
subject: <b>Some ground-rules and axioms</b>
body:
The Creator made the wheel of time.  The force driving the wheel of time is the action between saidin and saidar, which work together and against eachother.  Notice that this phenomenon is clearly explained by the different nature of the halves of the One Power.<br /><br />Now, this would suggest that the *power* of the Creator is one of creation.  i.e. No fancy fireworks power.  The heart of creation is the One Power as it drives the WOT which spins out the Pattern.  Taveren are the direct result of this creative process.  An external power is simply not needed.<br /><br />The Dark One's objective is to break the Wheel Of Time and remake the world in his own image.  This makes him an aggressor and gives rise to the need for a new source of power - one of his own.  Thus comes the True Power.  This True Power will be the de facto standard (as the One Power is now) in the world if the DO succeeds, particularly since the target of the DO's attack would be at the True Source itself (to destroy the Wheel).<br /><br />The Forsaken and the Dreadlords can channel the One Power because they start out as creatures of the Light.  In other words, they start out by being fragments of the Wheel's creative process described above.  Thus the OP is accessible to them and they choose to turn to the Shadow.  If you look closely, no Shadowspawn is capable of channelling the True Source and the ones that seem to be able to do any magic tricks must be channelling some other source because it cannot be sensed by channellers.<br /><br />I think that's long enough...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-01 15:17:29
subject: <b>One power is neutral</b>
body:
The one power pushes the wheel, and the wheel spins good and bad.  The wheel is neutral, and therefore the power pushing it must be neutral also, or the wheel would become unbalance, which is why in my opinion the DO will not be killed, just imprisoned for eternity.  I do think there is another power out there to balance out the true power, and that there are evil Ta'veren, because of the theme of balance that goes on in these books.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />wizard of the borderguard<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-18 17:26:45
subject: <b>Dude...</b>
body:
... The 60's were really good to you, weren't they. I mean, you have absolutely no evidence to back up any of your theory, but your just spewing off stuff left and right. I sure hope you were high when you wrote this. Maybe I'll go take a couple of hits, then see how I feel about this theory.<br /><br />Actually, this is not the first time I've heard of something like this. And it does make sense to balance out the True Power and how you have to have permission from the Dark One to use it. But it would seem the creator wants to stay out of life after creating it, and we have no indications in this age or in other turnings of the wheel to indicate he ever wants to change that philosophy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 06:11:10
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
It's the classic argument of free will Vs. Destiny. If the creator gave the ability to channel to humans, and also gave humans free will, then whether or not the OP is &quot;from the creator&quot; or not is moot, becuase the people that use it have free will, and the ability to do good or evil.<br /><br /><br />*sigh* Go read the unbearable lightness of Being or something, really.<br /><br />Also.... Didn't someone at one point say that people that Channel are actually more susceptable to the power of the DO? I could be totally wrong.... Just something to add to keep people arguing, I guess. Whatever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 23:29:51
subject: <b>quick question</b>
body:
I agree with the original post, and I would like to see Rand use the Creators power or whatever were calling it more than once. IT would be to cheesy if all of the sudden in the last chapter of the last book he used this super power and it ended happily ever after. I say he should use it in a desprate atempt to save his live at least once before the end. But the question is what are Rand's three personalities. Himself, Lews, and who else?<br /><br />thanks<br />nick


created: 2002-08-20 19:04:10
subject: <b>Come on I thought it was clear</b>
body:
Just as the saidar and saidin balance each other.  The evil taint is balanced by the taint of Mordeth.  That's how the<br />saidin was cleansed.  Saidar and Saidin are good, but in being good, they can be used for bad.  However Evil can never<br />be used for good and therefore only it's own may use this power.  Well I'm starting to confuse myself.  I've given the <br />basic stuff no need to complicate it with an explanation.<br /><br />Mausoleus


created: 2003-03-17 23:38:53
subject: <b>What???????????????????</b>
body:
Ok, first of all ur just pulling things out of ur ass. Ur assuming so much about the creator and u have no proof to back it up. Where the hell did u get kamikazi from??? Honestly, were u watching WW2 movies that entire day when u came up with this.<br />Second of all, what does rand's &quot;secret&quot; power have anything to do with the number 3. Wow, a lot of 3's in the book, isnt that spiffy, NO POINT TO IT THO. Well, im actually not too sure of that, since i tried to skim thru the stupidity that is ur theory i might've missed the only spec of logic that u had it in.


created: 2003-03-17 23:39:16
subject: <b>What???????????????????</b>
body:
Ok, first of all ur just pulling things out of ur a5s. Ur assuming so much about the creator and u have no proof to back it up. Where the heIl did u get kamikazi from??? Honestly, were u watching WW2 movies that entire day when u came up with this.<br />Second of all, what does rand's &quot;secret&quot; power have anything to do with the number 3. Wow, a lot of 3's in the book, isnt that spiffy, NO POINT TO IT THO. Well, im actually not too sure of that, since i tried to skim thru the stupidity that is ur theory i might've missed the only spec of logic that u had it in.


created: 2003-03-17 23:49:08
subject: <b>Whoops</b>
body:
It seems that because of my angryness when i wrote that comment of the sheer stupidity that was that post, i musta pressed it twice.


created: 2003-12-29 15:47:05
subject: <b>Actual Ability</b>
body:
Rand has a power that has been revealed several times, which might stem from Lews Therin or from himself, it has never been directly spoken. While i dont disagree about the three theory, the idea of a light power is quite silly to me. <br /><br />Rand is Ta'averen - He can channel as strongly as anyone else. <br /><br />but the actual ability that makes him stand out and can help him greatly. Is his ability to read residues. <br /><br />This power has been told of many times, in his fights with Ravin, Sammael, and Osan'gar. Each of those times, he has figured out how to do something by reading the residues of the channeling. <br /><br />This ability is very rare we learn by conversation between Elayne and Aviendha ( who also has this talent).<br /><br />but the way he is able to read the residues probably means he has the talent quite strongly, as the Aes Sedai in Egwene's camp told us in COT.


created: 2006-06-17 10:21:57
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I always assumed that the OP was drawn from the Creator in the same way that the TP is drawn from the DO... except that the Creator lets anyone with the ability use his/her/its/their power.<br /><br />It's an interesting thought, but unfortunately there's not much (well, any) evidence to support it yet.


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Remember the cycles</b>
body:
There has been some speculation about Ishamael appearing in something like thirty year cycles, <br />such as him controlling the Trolloc wars, and as Artur Hawkwing's advisor. <br />The idea behind this was him being partially bound - as was mentioned by several of the Forsaken in one of<br />their meetings.


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Partially Bound is more probable</b>
body:
I think Ishy was partially bound, and through some power of his own, or the DO's, was able to skip town for a while every now and again.  He certainly did a lot of work in his excursions, which could excuse him the wrath of the DO for getting himself killed.


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>the dashain aiel</b>
body:
well i am currently re-reading TSR and just read the chapter where rand goes into the heart of rhuidean. while he is going back in time one of his ancestors thinks about the last aes sedai that he had seen coming by taking some sa'angreal and saying something about ishamael being only partially trapped or not being trapped at all(she wasn't sure).but she did say "ishamael still touched the world"<p>boo8<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">boo8 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ishy close to the surface</b>
body:
As boo8 said, I do remember hearing it mentioned that Ishy was not fully trapped, <br />closest to the surface and therefore was able to touch the world.  I also remember it <br />mentioned that because he was not fully bound, this half in/half out state caused his<br />"insanity" (fire in eyes, fire in mouth, believing he was in fact the DO) - the forsaken <br />mention Ishy being a bit mad.  And also, (don't know if it relates) in another theory<br />it mentioned that Ishy "traveled" differently ... the air shimmered around him and he <br />appeared ... or some such, perhaps the way he traveled had to do with where he <br />was coming from (the prison) and /or his use of the True Power vs One Power.<br />Just some musings ...<br />Angelina


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Half captured</b>
body:
Broadly accepted that Ishy wasnt in Shayol Ghul? I have never seen anything that would mention such a thing. Although, a lot of other forsaken (and a Aes Sedai from Rands wiewings in Rhuidean) describes him as half-captured, able to touch the world


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ishamael</b>
body:
I recently read that big White Book (guide to WOT, or whatever) and it does everything but come right out and say that Ishamael was only partially sealed by the bore and because of that he reappeared throughout history at 40 year intervals. The big example it gives is that he was around Artur Hawkwing.  (RJ doesn't come right out and say it, but he talks about a man and from the description it is clear that it was Ishamael) He was the one that turned Artur against the White Tower and led to his downfall and the break up of his united realm. <p>Unfortunately the book wasn't mine, so I can't get the exact passages form it, but suffice it to say, Ishy was only partially trapped in the bore and was free and doing bad things at certain periods in time.</p>


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ishy and the Seanchan</b>
body:
As said before, Ishy was behind the breakup of Hawkwing's empire. Killing each possible heir to the <br />High King.  I believe it is also said somewhere that it was he who urged to send armies across the Aryth Ocean...    Thus, it is he that stood behind then evolution of the twisted society of the Seanchan.  Ever ask yourself where did that Aes Sedai, whatever her name, come up with the first adam?  In an age when no one knows the making of ter'angreal?  I believe Ishmael engineered the whole Seanchan Empire, in some future planning massive attempt to disrupt the Karaethon Cycle.<br />Which of course, is futile, cause that's the way prophecy works...   He should have read some fantasy books...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ishamael was only partially sealed</b>
body:
It is practically spellt out in the Guide, aka "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" that Ishamael was only partially sealed. If you don't  have access to the Guide, Ishamael himself admits it all in book 1!!! <br />"I was never sealed"<br />He also admits to leading the trollocs in the Trolloc Wars and setting up the Black Ajah, etc.<br />


created: 2002-03-11 04:43:37
subject: <b>The Real Deal With Ish</b>
body:
Ishamel claims he was not sealed at all, but I believe he was partially sealed as many others believe.  In this state, he could &quot;touch the world,&quot; but only every so often (every 30-40 years)and only for a brief length of time (well, brief for a Forsaken anyway).<br /><br />This half-and-half-caught-between-two-worlds state was not necessarily a benefit, however.  Without the DO meddling in his plans, Ishmael was all but free to claim himself AS the DO, but unfortunately without the Real McCoy around, he was no longer protected from the taint created by the sealing of the Bore.  As the first saidin-wielding dude to face the taint after LTT, he had no frame of reference for suspending, eliminating or even dealing with it.  The taint consumed him, fueled his desire for power and made him ultimately believe he WAS the DO.<br /><br />He used his time to perpetuate evil throughout the world, dabbing his fingers in all sorts of agendas.  The Seanchan, his crown jewel, are key to his plans.  Angered by Hawkwing's defeat centuries ago, he now uses the Seanchan to take revenge.  I do not belive Ishmael followed Rand to Toman Head; I believe Rand's arrival was orchestrated long in advance so Ishamael could face the Dragon Reborn when he was finally beginning to understand the depth of his power.  He had to nip everything in the bud.<br /><br />Since he failed, and now everything is out of hand, he subsists on the chaos Rand's existance brings to the world.  He must also be wary now of the other Forsaken, who are freeing themselves.<br /><br />Think about it.  If you're the most powerful of the Forsaken, sitting across the chess board from the first truly worthy opponent in 3,000 years (who happens to be the reincarnation of your worst enemy) and are bat crap crazy to boot, you'd be running the show pretty much the same way.<br /><br />I STILL am not convinced 100% that Ishmael is Moridin, but I'm close.  We'll just have to see.  What I am sure of, however, is that Ishamel was NOT fully sealed with his compadres, and he is mad, mad, mad.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-05-24 21:35:12
subject: <b>Oh My</b>
body:
this is the first time anyone ever caught me.i missed that good flamin job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-02 13:44:33
subject: <b>Question about Moridin=Ishamael</b>
body:
Osan'gar muses in WH (&quot;With the Choeden Kal&quot;, paperback, pg 754) that &quot;Moridin terrified him.  The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning.  He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that HE was the Great Lord.&quot;<br /><br />Is Osan'gar referring to Moridin AS Ishmael in this thought, or to Moridin?  As far as I understand, Moridin wouldn't have existed yet, but he doesn't say anything more clearly.  Any thoughts?<br /><br />I'm just not quite convinced that Moridin=Ishamael.


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>What about this?</b>
body:
I like the theory except for one thing.  Your post implies that only information from the person who enters mind is used.  The problem with that is Egwene's (sp?)  third test.  She is brought to a circle of 13 Black Sisters and 13 Myd.  However, when she comes out of the ring she has to ask what that was about becuase she knew nothing of that.


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>well it could work</b>
body:
As Moraine pointed out the "old blood runs strong" and Egwene has some of it.  It is possible she is someone reborn who is not important enough to be tav'eren, but her person she was reborn as might remember it.  As many have pointed out people are reincarnated in this series and just like the old toungue sounded familiar to her in The Eye of the World, she might remember that that is one of the scariest things possible.


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Also Balefire...</b>
body:
Yes, Egwene had to ask Sheriam about turning one over to the dark side, but I somehow recall her also knowing the balefire(which she hadn`t ever heard about before) in the third test.If you still believe her being a heroine reborn,why would she have these sudden remembrances(besides the Old Tongue)ALL in her accepteds test?


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Partially</b>
body:
I think you are partially right, but with one difference. The "future"vision in the ter'angreal is partially true, a twisted vision of the future. This is proved by Egwene and Nynaeve: for Egwene's, she is Amyrlin, and there are theories that Beldeine may become Keeper. However, Elaida is not Black, and if you don't swear on the Oath Rod you don't get the Ageless face. For Nynaeve's, she is married to Lan, and there is a Sharina who is training to be Aes Sedai, but it is unlikely that Malkier will be restored and Morgase is no longer Queen of Andor. So there is an core is truth, but the details are not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>possible futures?</b>
body:
i've always believed that the Ter'angreal showed a  possible future, similiar to the way the  portal stones can take you to worlds where all possible futures are explored.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> the lizard of oz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> bearded dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I agree with the people who say that a core of truth is present in what the testees see.  And certainly the "visions" that they see are not made entirely from their own minds/experiences.  But, t'a'r reflects the real world.  Or it might possibly also be related to Dreaming...<br />Anyway, I'm certain that the ter'angreal has to do with t'a'r.  The thing about it not necessarily showing fears, I'm not so certain about, but it would make sense.  After all, the Aes Sedai acknowledge that, of the t'a that they can use, they are probably using very few for the purpose for which they were intended<br />


created: 2001-07-05 08:19:52
subject: <b>T'Ar alright</b>
body:
I always thought that the arches were just another one of the ter'angreal used for training people in T'Ar... one of the forsaken makes some comment about this when she sees some 'misty' person in T'Ar (whose using one of the less effective access ter'angreals) - she just assumes she's using one of the &quot;ter'angreal used for training novices&quot;.<br />It would make sense if the arches WERE supposed to shove you into something akin to your worst fears... and then you were supposed to deal with them my manipulating t'ar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> That was balefire. It could burn your thread clear out of the pattern. Now, after all this excitement, you're probably wondering... does he have any power left? But the real question is... do you feel lucky? Well, do you, goat-kisser?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 17:14:52
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
Everything you say has to be correct.  The point you made with what you will see when you go in is a good one too.  It makes perfect sense.


created: 2001-10-22 14:55:16
subject: <b>What about the rings in Rhuidean</b>
body:
The rings in Rhuidean work by showing possible futures, much like the Portal Stones. Perhaps the arches work along the same lines.<br /><br />Though the theory on them being linked to T'A'R holds water, what happens to those who don't come back out of the arches? Are they trapped in T'A'R?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-15 04:31:20
subject: <b>WHAT????</b>
body:
If you think about the rings couldn't take you to T'A'R, because some on the things are completely different.  In T'A'R things are as close to what is real as possiable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />Disaries<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />The only ogier to be born out side the stedding<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 14:46:42
subject: <b>Re: Accepted Ter'angreal</b>
body:
I'd say the ter'angreal is definitely linked in some way to T'A'R, perhaps some special &quot;version&quot; or part of it.  Remember that some novices who have gone in do not come out... that is because they have entered T'A'R in the flesh.  Remain there too long, and you lose your humanity, and you're stuck there.<br /><br />-Callandor`s Edge<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <i> The sword that is not a sword... <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Soul of fire, heart of stone</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 22:41:41
subject: <b>I always thought...</b>
body:
I always thought that the arches showed a possible future, like the Portal Stones.  You could experience another future without consequences as long as you made it back in time. I would also like to note that these arches bear a striking similarity to the ter'angreal Moraine went through in Rhudian (sp?) in both form and design. Perhaps their motives are similar?????<br /><br />Just something for you all to think about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-13 18:17:31
subject: <b>Aielwarder says:</b>
body:
Aes Sedai do have a tendency to accept what they think for truth no matter what anyone says. Imagine trying to tell a Sitter that a sister could be released from her oaths! (A Crown of Swords, Sammael and Sevanna)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">That's right! An Aielman with a sword!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />I fear Perrin has fallen to the dark side <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 17:40:52
subject: <b>Egwene's test</b>
body:
Don't forget that she's a Dreamer, and one of her talents as a Dreamer is seeing the future in dreams.  If the arches show you possible futures, and Egwene can see true futures... perhaps she lived a slice of her future, not just a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>No way. <img src="images/angry.gif" /></b>
body:
This would be plagiarism, and RJ is waaay above this. Besides, it would suck AND be untrue to the storyline. Mat is way down south. He is in no position to try to 'rescue' Egwene short of Travelling and he doesn't even know where she is. There's no way he's going to kill Gareth Bryne trying to rescue her; she would dissuade him of it long befors he killed him. There are too many prophecies to be fulfilled, also. Egwene must bond Gawyn and Siuan and Gareth must save each others lives. There is no goal it would accomplish in the storyline, it would not move it closer to Tarmon Gai'don. It would be senseless, plagiaristic and useless. >:I<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not too likely.....</b>
body:
With all the different mythologies that Rj has merged together I don't think that he can follow all of them, to the letter at the same time with out contradicting things a lot.<p>   Remeber that Rand Mat and Perrin among others have also been linked to norse mythologies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Besides which . . .</b>
body:
Gareth was Gawain's younger brother.  Hardly equivalent positions to Bryne and Gawyn.  And in exactly what way does Mat correspond to Lancelot?


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
if Mat would be Lancelot, Egwene cant be Guinevere, because they loved each other, and she still loves gawyn.<br />Lancelot and Gawyn never fought against each other, they were both knights of Arthurs army and fought against Mordred, another son of Morgase.<br />Would this mean, Gawyn will be killed by who?<br />Rand or Galad?<p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eolair <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>No way...</b>
body:
There's no reason for Mat to kill (accidentally or otherwise) ANY of the good guys in the series. That would just be a stupid plot move on Jordan's part. He hasn't had any of them killed by Darkfriends or Forsaken; what's the point of harming TWO characters (both the murdered and the murderer, because of stigma) to coincide his story with a myth? (Incidentally, Gawaine was not killed by Lancelot; the head wound Lancelot gave him in France was opened by one of Mordred's men in the first battle Gawaine fought on his return to England. Also, while Gawaine warned Arthur about Mordred in a dream, the only dead people in TAR are Heroes, and I don't think Gawaine is one, and he was said to be buried in Dover, not Camelot (Wales). So even the parallels wouldn't work.) It's not really plagiarism, but it's pointless.


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>HAHA!</b>
body:
I read this theory, and although I whole-heartedly agree with it, I am going to selfishly use this space to talk about a theory of my own.  You may find a post similar to this seeing as I am going to post it under a theory in each category.<p>[ahem]...I have recently begun my fourth reading of WoT, and something suddenly struck me.  Saidin and Saidar are the male and female halves of the power that turns the wheel of time and essentially makes time flow right?  So based on this, wouldn't it stand to reason that if no one used the power in any particular age, time would essentially stand still in terms of ages coming and going etc.?  If this is so, then can't we see that one of the ages in which  nobody used the power (i think i've seen one of those mentioned) the age would never end?  What would happen?  Maybe the end of the age is when use of the power is first discovered in that cycle of the wheel. Please send me your thoughts on that.<br />                                   sincerely,<br /> <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> a man who may very well be just plain wrong<img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well Done</b>
body:
I can always admire a man who's willing to admit that they could be 180 degrees from being right . . . <img src="images/angel.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>re: Arthurian legend</b>
body:
OK, i have to admit that i don't know very much at all about Arthurian legend, so can anyone suggest any good websites / books that could basically help me out? I'd like to know some fairly detailed ones, rather than 'Arthur was a king who drew a sword out of a stone' sort of ones...<p>So, can anyone help???</p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>On Gawain and Gawyn</b>
body:
I don't have a mythology website handy (though I recall something called mythology.net) but I can tell what myths the poster was thinking about. If that doesn't work, I'd just go to hotbot and search for "Arthurian Myth" and then search for "Sir Gawain" within the results.<p><br />Here's a quick summary: </p><p>Queen Guinevere is tried for adultery and sentenced to burn at the stake, when Lancelot finds out, comes for her and rescues her. In the process, he is forced to strike down multiple knights guarding the cart bringing Guinevere to the stake pole. At least one of them, Sir Gareth, dies of his wounds. </p><p>King Arthur finds out about this, and is honor-bound to declare war on Sir Lancelot. Gawain also finds about this, and is shocked--not only is Lancelot a friend of Gareth, but Lancelot is the very knight who knighted Sir Gareth. But regardless of why it happened, Gawain decides he must avenge the death of his brother Gareth. </p><p>During the war on Sir Lancelot, Gawain meets up with Lancelot and demands single combat with Lancelot. Lancelot is reluctant to do so, but as it involves fewer deaths on both sides, he agrees. Lancelot and Gawain fight three times (both of these guys are men of profound strength and skill) and Gawain dies of his wounds after the third fight. </p><p>-----</p><p>I'm HOPING that RJ doesn't decide he should do something like this, but after a few alterations, I can come up with this: </p><p>All this is over a woman and a wrongful death. </p><p>Lancelot wrongfully kills Sir Gareth when rescuing Guenevere. Gawyn is avenging the "deaths" of Elayne and Moragase. </p><p>Continuing the rough translation, since Lancelot was killed Sir Gawain, who wished to kill him, Rand may have to kill Gawyn, who wishes to kill him. Lancelot had no quarrel with Gawain, and was sorry for the murder of Sir Gareth. Rand has no quarrel with Gawyn, and knows had he not spent extra time at Tear he could've "saved" Morgase from her "murder" by Rahvin. </p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Arthurian Legend</b>
body:
Everyone has to remember there are several legends about Lancelot and Gareth and Gawain and they are all different.  So even if he did follow one of them we don't know which.<br /><img src="images/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rhianna Sedai<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>RJ plagerize, NEVER!!</b>
body:
I'm afraid that I have to agree with Bad Ash on this one.  I don't think that RJ would be that short on ideas that he would have to copy straight from another source.  He may base his characters on other cultures, but he has a very original story.<img src="images/tongue.gif" />


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Blah blah blah Mythology blah blah blah</b>
body:
I am getting sick and tired of people relating WoT to mythology.  Yes, I know that RJ is influenced by Norse mythology and Anglo-Saxon myths.  But come on, its like relating WoT to Tolkein.  Thats just crazy.


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not Too Keen on Mythology Traces</b>
body:
Before I say anything else, I want to mention this: <p>I like mythology. When other kids were outside playing, I read Greek myths, and to this day I'm bitter over not knowing about Egyptian or Norse myths because I would've read up on those, too, and now have time to only vaguely acquaint myself with them. I occasionally read up on Kabbalic folklore and a few American Indian myths, too. I'm pretty familiar with Arthurian Mythology, though it's tough to find anything not written by the author of Le Morte de Arthur (forgive my spelling if it's off). </p><p>But I don't want mythology in Wheel of Time. I hate lazy thinking like that. </p><p>I don't want rand to lose a hand because, hey, he's Tyr! I hate it when people say that Perrin's Thor because both have a beard and hammer. I would get ticked off if Mat loses an eye because he has to be like Odin. I would seriously consider dropping the WoT books if that occured. It's not like there's a shortage of Fantasy books out there.</p>


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Other motivations</b>
body:
I think if Mat loses an eye it will have a higher purpose to the sotry than just keeping up with a set of myths.<p>   I'm also one of those people that think it might mean for him to SACRIFICE (that means actually choose to giv up, rather than have someone get a lucky shot at his eye) half the light of the world to save the world.</p><p>   They didn't say "You'll give up half the light of YOUR world" they said THE world. So if Tuon dies by a decision Mat has to make (which could mean the loss of half the worlds armies at Tarmon Gai'don) like say going after Rand over saving her, that'd make sense. If he has to let his luck altering abilities undo the cleansing of Saidin (or taint Saidar) then that makes sense. </p><p>   If he just looses an eye because his bloody luck runs could in a single battle that doesn't fit very well. Even if that is what goes down then I still don't see RJ doing it because "well he is based on Odin, and Rand's gonna have to lose a hand, and Perrin will have to be turned into a silly comic book character that wears a ridiculous costume".<br /><img src="images/myrddraal.gif" /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><img src="images/king.gif" /><img src="images/jester.gif" /><img src="images/madmyrddraal.gif" />><img src="images/smile.gif" />0<img src="images/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>in terms of WoT being related to tolkien</b>
body:
In terms of the blackboard comment of it being ridiculous to compare WoT to tolkien, although that may be true, I think that RJ did take something from tolkien.  If you remember, Manetheren means something along the lines of "land of the mountain folk," and the last king of manetheren was Aemon son of somebody, son of thorin.  I foggily remember reading in The Hobbit about one of the dwarves either being named thorin, or being a descendant of someone named thorin.  I don't think that RJ was stealing here though.  I think this is just a small tribute to Tolkien. <br />It also asks the question...if the last king of manetheren was Aemon 'al something 'al thorin, maybe Tam 'al Thor is royalty.  Who knows?<br />                                sincerely,<br />                           the rambling hisorian<img src="images/read.gif" /><p>P.S.  Boy....I really hope i'm not wrong about some obvious aspect here.<img src="images/aessedai.gif" />Oh well.<img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Tam's of Royal Blood? I Think so, too</b>
body:
To tell you the truth, I think a lot of Two Rivers folk are royalty. My take is that after the destruction of Manetherin and that huge final slaughter where the king dies and the queen gives her life to be able to channel Dragon-levels of One Power, that some of the nobles live. Not every knight and every lady died; there had to be someone or something they protected.<p>Unless I'm really drunk, Manetherin was something of a borderland, and if not, then that area influences them. Besides the Ogier and Aes Sedai, only the borderlanders and seemed to know of Manetherin, and Lan taught Rand _borderlander_ etiquette when he went to meet Siuan Sanche. </p><p>I think that Rand was wrong and the Saldeans were right when they kept referring to him as lord. I figure that the Two Rivers may have turned to farming and tabac (anyone love how the heroic Two Rivers folk farm tobacco, enemy of the universe?<img src="images/smile.gif" />), but they kept their spirit and names. </p><p>Yes, that means I think that Nynaeve and Egwene are nobility, too.</p>


created: 2001-05-17 04:00:18
subject: <b>Gareth Bryne is RE Lee</b>
body:
I don't think RJ took anything but the name oof Gareth (and probably Gawyn as well) from Arthurian mythology.  Gareth is a man of honor, accounted one of the greatest living generals,<br />has a horse named &quot;Traveller&quot; (just like RE Lee), demands ultimate authority on the conduct of war, and is leading the REBEL Aes Sedai into the north to take on the original Aes Sedai.<br />My bet would be that Bryne, unlike Lee, will win.  The South will rise again (in Randland)<br />-Mowgli, the Last Prophet of Taimandredism


created: 2001-07-11 02:39:28
subject: <b>A big problem &amp; a solution</b>
body:
The problem for Gawain fighting Lancelot being Gawyn fighting Mat is the characterisation. Gawyn is Gawain by virtue of name. Lancelot is Gawyn by virtue of loving Egwene.<br />So we have a problem of Gawyn fighting Gawyn. I don't think RJ shall have this happen, unles it is in T'A'R, with the true Gawyn and a Forsaken pretender while Egwene is standing there ready to blast the other out of existence.<br /><br />Slayer perhaps? Gawyn doesn't like Rand &amp; Rand looks like Slayer. Maybe that is the answer. A nice way to kill off Slayer &amp; fulfill a myth somewhat in one go.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Aquatic Mamals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-01 01:20:15
subject: <b>A minor point...</b>
body:
I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I'd like to make a small point... one that applies to probably most of the theories in the &quot;Randland vs. Mythology&quot; subject area.<br /><br />I've seen a lot of posts saying how it would really suck if events in Randland occured exactly the way we would expect them to if they follow the events played out by their supposed mythological equivalents in Norse mythology, Arthurian legend, etc., and I agree that to see the same story put down before us would be a major let-down. I want to read something I've never read before, and I don't believe that RJ will let us down in this.<br /><br />But...<br /><br />Remember the name of this series? &quot;The Wheel of Time.&quot; In the universe RJ has constructed, Time is a Wheel, and the myths and legends of one age are the reality of an age on the other side of the wheel. Many of the myths of Randland appear to be based on the reality of our present day. Remember Mosk and Merk, the two giants? Elsbet, Queen of All? Anla the Wise Counselor? Lenn, who flew to the Moon in the belly of a giant Eagle? All of these legends have supposed connections to our present-day reality. I'm sure you've all read a post somewhere with these connections made.<br /><br />My point is, if there do happen to be some parralels with Norse mythology or Arthurian legend or anything else, don't think of it as &quot;Uh-oh... RJ has run out of good ideas and is just stealing from mythology.&quot; Instead, look at it from his point of view. He needs to convince us that Randland is as much an influence on OUR mythology as WE are on theirs. Don't think that RJ is stealing from Arthurian legend, but think that he is showing you where that legend came from in the first place.<br /><br />This still leaves a lot of wiggle room for him, as legends and myths can become quite twisted during the intervening ages... an original story can, and most assuredly will, be told here. But certain parallels should not only be accepted by the reader, we should expect them in order for this whole concept of a non-linear universe to be valid.<br /><br />Any novel is just a snapshot in time... a recording of certain events in a certain order with a definite beginning and a definite end. But WoT tries to encompass more than that. It shows us how this snapshot in time affects, and is affected by, all other times and Ages as well.


created: 2001-11-11 21:42:40
subject: <b>hm..</b>
body:
I can definately see Mat as Lancelot, lancelot always seemed to be a rogue-ish character to me; and it has been suggested in other theories that Mat has a &quot;thing&quot; for egwene. However, I dont see how he'd have to kill Gareth in order to rescue Egwene. I suppose it could be accidental.. he'd somehow get to the Tower when the battle goes on, and as he tries to rescue Egwene he kills gareth by accident (Gareth is rushing toward egwene, sword bared, to kill someone who's about to stab her or something, and Mat assumes gareth is trying to kill her, so he kills gareth, or something). Of course, there is the viewing about gareth and siuan needing to save each other, but just because she had a viewing about that, doesnt mean they will save each other. These things go wrong, sometimes (min did have a viewing about the battle after elaida took over the tower). <br /><br />Still, there's also really no reason for Gawyn to duel with Mat over that. I suppose that, unlike elayne, he never got to see that Gareth no longer cared about them like childrenl, and that since he couldnt get revenge on rand for his mother's &quot;death&quot;, he wanted to get revenge for gareth's. Still, i think it's unlikely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~CrazyCaleb~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Lord of All<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />-Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 14:59:47
subject: <b>You would like to think so...</b>
body:
That's a good point...  But unless someone got the image of the Fisher from a short period of time when Nynaeve (or some other Yellow) wasn't around, why would a lasting image of Rand involve him being blind?<br /><br />I need to take some more time to read WoT all over again - I spend too much time actually working on wotmania, I think!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/1.gif" /><br />wotmania<br />Creator of wotmania<br />Making Admins Dance for Over a Decade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 15:11:52
subject: <b>Yeah...</b>
body:
I'm currently rereading. I've gotten through Books 1-3, A New Spring, and I'm currently perusing the guide....all my other books are buried in storage <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-07 15:36:05
subject: <b>Only a blindfold</b>
body:
Since the Fisher is shown with a blindfold rather than with actual wounds to the eyes, I suggest that Rand will not be <br />physically blinded at all.  To me this blindfold indicates a temporary lack of vision, mirrored by Rand's confusion<br />over many things since realizing he is the DR.  It may even be connected to the lesson he must learn from<br />Cadsuane, which will remove the blindfold and allow him to be human again.  Rand himself seems to feel as if he  is flying <br />blind.


created: 2001-05-07 16:12:22
subject: <b>Blind</b>
body:
Didn't Min have a vision of Rand blind with a begger's staff?  I not sure when, maybe in Path of Daggers.  That would fit with the idea of Rand becoming the Fisher. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-07 16:20:01
subject: <b>I like the metaphor idea</b>
body:
The idea of Rand walking around blindly is very appealing to me.  No evidence to disprove this theory.  It seems more likely than a blind dragon fighting the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 16:20:25
subject: <b>Blind 2</b>
body:
I am sorry it was not Min viewings it was Perrin Dreams<br /><br />Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.&quot; <br />The Shadow Rising <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" />82) <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-05-07 19:25:37
subject: <b>Not actually blind</b>
body:
I have to agree that I always thought of it as a metaphor; Rand, although he seems so on top of everything, really has very little idea of what's going on around him. Thus the bandage over his eyes. I mean, *how* long was the man around Dashiva? And he never noticed that he was just *possibly* more than a madman...?


created: 2001-05-07 19:29:15
subject: <b>Also Recall</b>
body:
That Rand has had vision troubles lately when he grabs or releases Saidin. This in itself may lead to the blindness. <br /><br />   It could of course be metaphorical as well. Afterall the evidence is mostly from dreams and vision and thos are usually vague.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 20:56:16
subject: <b>He may be blind AND dead, however...</b>
body:
There is a quote of Elayne's, that Nynaeve won't be happy until she heals somebody three days dead.<br /><br />I propose that all this awful stuff happens and Nynaeve heals him.  After all, &quot;twice dawns the day that he shall die&quot;.  Some say that's the result of a lunar eclipse or a shooting star or balefire/timewarps/stepping outside the pattern, but I say Rand dies twice...literally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-08 11:15:21
subject: <b>blind literal and/or figurative....</b>
body:
A few posts above it was commented on how 'blind' Rand was, as he never noticed Darshiva and his 'oddness'.<br />I believe Rand did notice. Rand seems to often keep those who want ot hurt him close by and that seemed to be the case with Darshiva.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-08 12:38:17
subject: <b>mat's influence</b>
body:
maybe thhis is where mat has to sacrifice one of his eyes to save half the world.  perhaps to heal the blindness of  rand nynaeve will need a donor organ and mat has to choice of either giving up his eye and allowing rand to complete his duty of battling at TG or having the Light fail.


created: 2001-05-08 15:13:12
subject: <b>Blinded By Duty</b>
body:
As others have said, I agree that the blindness is metaphorical. Perhaps Rand is so blinded by his duty as the Dragon Reborn that he can't see that he is losing his humanity. Look at Rand's recent history. He keeps making himself harder and harder (Far Madding didn't help) so he will be able to do what he thinks must be done to win the Last Battle. He doesn't realize that him being human is one of the most important weapons he has. If it were otherwise, why wouldn't the Creator himself fight the battle?


created: 2001-05-15 21:23:44
subject: <b>It is wrong to make an absolute comparison to teh Fisher.</b>
body:
The Fisher can easily be taken as Rand without any prediction for him becoming blind. The bandage over the eyes is easily explained by Rand's lack of control and understanding over the situation. He cannot see the plots against him and he is often fumbling in th edark, against rebels, Darkfriends, the White Tower, and other groups.<br />Besides, a dim remembrance of Rand alThor will not repeat in such an obvious fashion. <br />Regarding the point about whether Rand will diee a beggar - since when has Jordan started wiping out major characters? It is more likely that things will end in a more or less &quot;happliy ever after&quot;. Look at the bonding of Rand, the children for Elayne and Aviendha, the cleansing of saidin etc.


created: 2001-05-15 22:09:18
subject: <b>Twice and Twice</b>
body:
I just wanted to point out what I think is a misconception on the part of most of the characters in WOT, and perhaps a few of you.  It seems to me that when the 'twice and twice' prophecy is quoted, which is something to the affect of<br /><br />twice and twice shall he be marked<br />twice to live and twice to die<br /><br />it means not that he's been marked twice for the one time he'll live, and marked twice for the one time he'll die, but marked twice for the two times lived, and two for the two times died.<br />


created: 2001-05-16 17:13:41
subject: <b>All part of the disguise</b>
body:
Perrin's image of Rand in beggars clothes with a bandage over his eyes suggests to me Rand purposely disguising himself.  Someone on another blackboard suggested Rand may gain the benefits of the good version of True Power, complete with it's own Tsais (I forget the word, but the flecks that go across Moridin's eyes).  If that's the case, then Rand would need to cover his eyes to avoid being recognized.  I also like the irony of Perrin dreaming this since he to likes to have people avoid his eyes.


created: 2001-05-17 03:52:27
subject: <b>Fisher King in European Mythology</b>
body:
I've always assumed that the Fisher piece in Isy's big chess game was foreshadowing to show Rand's parallel to the classical<br />role of the Fisher King, and related mythological fertility figures.  After all, the Dragon is supposed to be<br />&quot;reborn&quot; in the time of the Land's greatest need.  That reads almost straight out of the archetype.  I forget what<br />the Fisher King story actually involved, but like Adonis, Bacchus, Jesus and countless other Mediterranean<br />figures, he had to spill his blood and die in order to save the land and restore its potential for new growth.  I think the blindfold<br />is some extended metahpor on RJ's part, but it seems obvious to me that Rand will indeed have to die.  The only<br />question remaining is whether he will be resurrected like the god figures, or stay dead like the more human<br />fertility cult counterparts and the Fisher King himself.<br />-Mowgli, the Last Prophet of Taimandredism


created: 2001-05-17 21:43:49
subject: <b>Amfortas &amp; Rand</b>
body:
I don't if that has already been mentioned somewhere<br />but there are several parallels between Rand and Amfortas<br />of the Grail Story, both have wounds on their side that <br />don't heal and they suffer permanently of extreme pain<br />(Remember when Elayne bonded Rand, she was shocked by the<br />pain he feeled)<br />Another parallel ist that they both are reffered as Fisher<br />or Fisherking (Amfortas is the Fisherking).<br />Even Titurel is somehow introduced by, Jordan, LTT is<br />the Titurel of Rand, there are several paralles, both<br />occour mainly bodiless, as far as I remember Titurel speaks out of a tomb, both are a kind of ancesctors whose legacy dominates the lives of their successors,<br />and whose mistakes lead to the wound on their side.<br />And most important both have to fullfill the, Grail ceremony against their will, then indeed what Rand/LTT/Dragon does is very similar to the Grail, the Grail opens another circle of life (until the next ceremony<br />or the next Tarmon Gaidon).<br />So maybe the blindfold indicates that Rand is convinced <br />he's trapped alone in his fate but he's got more choices<br />then he thinks.


created: 2001-05-18 18:57:44
subject: <b>Min's veiwing...</b>
body:
in one of min's first veiwings ...if not the very first... she sees Rand with a beggar's staff ... no theory here just a tidbit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-19 18:26:53
subject: <b>Rand or Mat blind??</b>
body:
In a past book, was it Rand or Mat whom was blinded by the lightning?  I believe this was also when they were &quot;beggers&quot; and were playing at taverns for their room and board.


created: 2001-05-22 16:16:24
subject: <b>How many kinds of blindness can there be?</b>
body:
The presentation of the Fisher as blind is indeed a shadow of Rand&#8217;s current or future condition, as every point of the Fisher's description is significant, and there can be no doubt it is Rand being portrayed. But let&#8217;s look at the fact of the Fisher being blindfolded in the game aspect, to gain an understanding of the portrayal. The Fisher isn't blind, but blindfolded. Why? Perhaps it is that, for all of his power, it is essential that he depend on others around him to aid in gaining and maintaining any advantage. Also, that in the game, he can be manipulated by either of the two players depending on his position on the board, his being blindfolded keeps him unable to establish a permanent affiliation. Pulled into the &#8216;real life&#8217; aspect, this suggests that Rand still might find himself used by the forces of the Shadow. Up until Lanfear&#8217;s departure into the Tower of Ghenjei, she had hoped to use him for her &#8216;side&#8217; of the game, and it is apparent that other of the FS were at least tacitly permitting this attempt, though Be&#8217;lal, Ishamael, and Bethamel thought to destroy him first. Since Lanfear has left (Not considering Cyndane&#8217;s appearance), others of the FS have tried to &#8216;move&#8217; him to their ends, though none so overtly. Have any of Rand&#8217;s decisions served the FS more than he knows? I think he fears this possibility greatly, and is part of his reasoning for doing nothing that is expected, of trying to keep everyone off-balance, and interestingly, that forces him to act almost blindly at times. As an example, he surely never wished to run into Fain at Toram's side in the rebel camp with Caraline and Darlin.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t believe he is physically blinded, though he might be temporarily after cleansing Saidin and destroying Shadar Logoth, but that is something that Nynaeve can surely heal. In fact, one passage during that event reads; &quot;Rand could not see Nynaeve any longer. He could not see anything, feel anything. He swam in surging seas of flame, scrambled across collapsing mountains of ice.&quot; He has put blind trust in those who came with him to the hilltop North of Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Regarding Dashiva (Osan&#8217;gar), I don't believe Rand is blind in the least. At Dumai&#8217;s Wells, when he chose who of the Ash&#8217;aman would accompany him, he selected Dashiva by sensing his strength, not realizing which of them he pointed at until he looked. He is confident that only the FS can even nearly match his strength, he has been almost paranoid about the Black Tower being infiltrated by a male FS, and he always seems to wish those most dangerous to him to be nearby.<br /><br />Appolyon&#8217;s comments that Rand&#8217;s blindness to his own humanity in favor of his duty has merit, although it was a creeping blindness. He found it necessary to himself to suppress emotion in order to carry on as he knew he must. Now every time something happens to threaten that barrier he makes himself harder. This might have been the only way for him to survive emotionally early on, but he has a very clear sense of himself and his duty now, and can manage while retaining his humanity. This is obviously the lesson Cadsuane wishes to teach him, though it might not precisely be the thing Min saw, since that includes ALL the Ash&#8217;aman as well.<br /><br />One theory I would reject entirely is anything supporting a parallel between the WOT story and ANY extant mythology or religion. While RJ freely pulls &#8216;threads&#8217; (pardon the pun) of many belief systems and classic stories into the methods of the overall WOT story, for this or that culture, it is out of character to think more. The Fisherking/Amfortas concept certainly fits in this category. It would dilute the entire story and smack of virtual plagiarism.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 21:43:16
subject: <b>I dont know why you guys havent SEEN this.....</b>
body:
well...Mat looses an eye or will, Rand goes blind... Maybe nynayve uses mat as an Eye doner... sounds cheasy and kinda stupid consideing both of them would have no depth perseption but, possibility...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 11:17:51
subject: <b>Rand and the Fisher...hmmmmmmmmmm</b>
body:
Maybe the blindfold is more figurative then literal (haven't read the other posts so if this has been posted then too bad). With the forsaken and whatnot all trying to hide, and doing a pretty good job some of the time, perhaps the blindfold refers to Rand's &quot;blindness&quot; (holds up fingers in quotation style) of the events he's involved in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You're born, you take sh<i></i>it. You get out in the world, you take more sh<i></i>it. Climb a little higher, you take less sh<i></i>it, 'til one day you're in the rareified atmoshphere and you've forgotten what sh<i></i>it looks like. Welcome to the L4yer Cake son.<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 08:01:10
subject: <b>Alternate theory</b>
body:
While the idea of Rand being blind has some support, personally I think there are two possible and much simplier explainations.  <br /><br />First, Rand's heritage is Aiel.  At least over the past thousands years or more, Aiel covered their eyes when there was killing to be done.  Granted, Rand himself never covers himself with a shoufa (sp?) but that's one possibility.<br /><br />The other, is simply that Rand does not know that he's being manipulated, hence he's blind to what is really going on around him.  Moridin has said this in a number of passages.  Who is to say there is not someone (Creator?) that is secretly pushing Rand around for the Light?  <br /><br />Of course, since everything minus death can be Healed (if done in time), Rand might be blind before this is all said and done. =)<br /><br />FACPOV (From A Certain Point Of View),<br /><br />Statman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Statman<br /><br />- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 03:18:39
subject: <b>one small problem, statman</b>
body:
Um, don't Aiel cover everything BUT their eyes with their shoufas? It'd be pretty hard to fight when you can't see your enemies! Your second theory is better, though. I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 15:54:24
subject: <b>Rands fear of women</b>
body:
Just a small thought... if the DO could materialize into a humanoid form, whats to say that the DO wouldnt chose a female form.  Knowing Rand's inability to lay a smackdown on any woman, wouldnt it be to his benifit to be blind?  Ignorance is bliss...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mikel Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Bonded to Aida Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 05:51:27
subject: <b>Hmm........</b>
body:
I always thought that the bandage over the Fisher's eyes meant that Rand was blind to several factions that would affect him, and his struggle against the Dark One. Also, doesn't one AS once say that she had terrible problems with her wilder block- having to shut her eyes when she embraced saidar- because you have to be able to see the flows? I know saidin and saidar are different, but having to see the flows seems so fundamental that it might be a similarity.<br />Also, what if he was trying to Balefire a Forsaken, but 'cos he couldn't see, he missed, and hit one of his friends! Even though that would be another great thing to torment him with, RJ hasn't officially killed any of the big main characters (oh, c'mon, Moiraine is sooo alive).<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> I am Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Asylum Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> The Ring of the Malkieri Kings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg lives! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Dammit my eye's on fire! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 00:00:18
subject: <b>Physical Blindness</b>
body:
The Aiel call the Dark One &quot;Sighblinder.&quot; I think that in light of that and all the other evidence, i really think that Rand will become physically blind. There is also the Aiel chant and what Rand says when he saw the saidin sphere outside of Cairhein, &quot;...to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day!&quot;<br /><br />I'm paraphrasing, but I think that this is significant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Shorty, Pastor of Muppets<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Embiggens is a perfectly cromulent word.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I bet Einstein turned himself all sorts of colors before he invented the light bulb.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: I'm sexy. Really. Really really sexy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 00:46:40
subject: <b>just a clarification</b>
body:
YAY!  my first wotmania post!  (be nice - I'm new.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  )<br /><br />Ok - I'll admit it - all my books are at home, and I'm here at college, so I can't really check any of this out, but this is just what I was thinking about when I was reading all of this ... it might be a bit contradictory in itself, I'm thinking things through as I type them.<br />first off - Rand may be LTT reborn, but that doesn't mean that they will be *exactly* the same.  Not every time that LTT stubbed a toe in his life will be reflected in Rand's - but then again, if his &quot;blindness&quot; was big enough for it to be noticed and made into a statue, then it just might be reflected in Rand's ... <br /><br />Now here again, I don't have my books with me, so this might be completely off the wall, but was LTT blind at the beginning of The Eye of the World when they show him?  Part of me says yes, and part of me says no.  As I recall, he didn't see Iliana or anyone else who was lying around dead ... but that might have just been shock ... and his madness ... I don't know.  Also, I can't remember - did LTT die during that scene they show of him?  I think so ... <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Susan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT swearer</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 15:25:09
subject: <b>Mat giving up half the light of the world to save the world</b>
body:
If Rand were to go blind perhaps the prophecy about Mat losing an eye to save the world is linked to this somehow?  Seems kind of macabre for randland but I could see Mat giving up his eye and getting it healed in rand's head or something


created: 2002-02-20 10:08:54
subject: <b>It's literal</b>
body:
The figure of the Fisher is almost certainly an echo from the last time the Third Age came around, right?<br /><br />What kind of manual laborer who carves <i>sha'rah</i> pieces will be in a position to know of Rand's blindness towards certain events/people? <br /><br />Why would an image that is essentially a political cartoon survive for eight Ages, and the image of the victorious heroic Dragon Reborn, the savior of all mankind from the Dark One, not be represented?  [No one ever painted Washington with the cherry-tree-chopping-axe in his hand, they painted him crossing the Delaware.]<br /><br />Why would the blindfold be symbolic when the wound in the side is actually there? The only precedent for graven imagery in [R-word deleted] is on Mat's playing cards in Tear.  These depict accurate, recognizable and detailed portraits of the rulers, not caricatures.<br /><br />So the blindfold is really a bandage, Perrin's dream is true, and Rand does go blind. Listen to Lightbringer.<br /><br />I will hedge my bets here tho: Rand is metaphorically blind, as is Justice (as carved in courtrooms). Hawkwing's sword was called Justice, could Rand be the 'sword' of Mat? Mat is a much better general, maybe he'll come up with a plan for Rand to execute at TG.


created: 2002-03-17 10:34:38
subject: <b>Mat gives up half of Rand's sight?</b>
body:
Didn't the quote say something along the lines of Mat must give up half the light of the world? Maybe Mat has to poke out one of Rand's (the &quot;Light&quot; of the world) eyes to save him or something. This would explain the bandages. Unless the fisher in the previous turnings of the wheel was one person but this time the pattern spun out three, Rand, Mat and Perrin, to deal with the last last battle as more than one person would be needed to have even a chance of winning?<br /><br />Just a thought...


created: 2002-04-09 18:46:07
subject: <b>Blind and one-handed</b>
body:
Not only will Rand be physically blinded, he will also lose a hand - the Fisher has only one hand (I think) and there is something about Egwene's dream/Min's viewing of Elayne...? The line that struck me recently was when I was reading tDR, Nyn was explaining stilling to Aviendha - she said it couldn't be healed with the Power, 'any more than a lost limb could be replaced.' This looks like typical RJ foreshadowing - if stilling hadn't been healed I would have thought nothing of it. I would like to see Rand, looking like the Fisher, a blind beggar, going to face the Dark One at TG. Perhaps he doesn't even have to win - perhaps just the act of going to face the DO, without hope of victory or salvation, is enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-02 05:38:57
subject: <b>going against the flow</b>
body:
i like the litral blindness and have heard what you guys have said and so i say:<br /><br />Rand will go blind litraly.<br /><br />It will not be Healed because it will be like the other wonds displade on thr fisher(the NEVER healing wounds)<br /><br />Rand(and every one eles) will be woried, how can u fight the forsaken when u cant see them.<br /><br />Rand will learn to see without his eyes(something to do with the one power) and will see things that people normaly can not.<br /><br />well i was just saying what sounded cool so.....yer...&quot;well i like it&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..........what?.....STOP LOOKING AT ME!!...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-30 12:42:36
subject: <b>Just read this</b>
body:
The bandage on his eyes might mean equality of justice. I mean that is what he's been doing;look at every country he takes he reworks the law so not only the nobles benefit from it but also the poor. It means fairness and justice not blindness


created: 2001-05-07 19:28:48
subject: <b>Dragons</b>
body:
I believe that Dragons existed in the Age before the Age of Legends and that they were a myth to those people. They gave the name to Lews Therin because they believed he was in many ways like the dragons of legend. So that is how that goes the way I think anyway. :p<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 20:52:35
subject: <b>Existed?</b>
body:
The dragon theory fits right in with the theory that wot is the future of Earth.<br /><br />I don't think dragons ever existed, the name is just a carryover from the current myths of Life, the Universe, and Everything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-08 14:00:14
subject: <b>How do we know what Dragons are?</b>
body:
This seems like an odd thing that I've never seen anybody post. Dragons do not exist in our world, they are something from stories and legends. We all know what a dragon is, but have never seen one. I think it's most likely that this is the same in RandLand.


created: 2001-05-15 06:22:14
subject: <b>Dragons</b>
body:
He Bad Ash: How do WE know what a dragon is like? Has anybody ever seen one (excluding dreams, being drunk, dinosaurs and relying on Chinese Wall hangings)?<br /><br />We have never seen one, still we have a common idea of a dragon and we even write Theory Posts about them. So... if we have never seen them, but could think up the names (the same goes for pixies, trolls, wizards, angels and other fictional/mythological/religious creatures), why couldn't the people in the Age of Legends write (fictional) books about the wise and (in our eyes) Oriental Dragons?<br /><br />Maybe they gave Lews Therin his nickname because he showed the same virtues as dragons displayed in their stories: tall, strong, strong-willed, stuborn, wise, aggresive, you name it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Artsapat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The Golden Axe&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Artsapat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The Golden Axe&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Cuius rei demonstrationem mirabilem sane detexi, hanc marginis exiguitas non caperet.&quot;<br /><br />Visit me at Artsapat.Hyves.nl (Dutch)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-16 17:05:45
subject: <b>Metamorph to a dragon</b>
body:
Does everyone remember the great worms in the Blight?  I believe Lan hints that they metamorph (much like a catepillar) into an even more fierce creatures.... perhaps into actual dragons.


created: 2001-05-22 16:23:40
subject: <b>Dragon, Dragon, who's got the Dragon?</b>
body:
Dwight R. Martin&#8217;s post is quite thoughtful, but I would disagree with a minor point or two. To say that Rand &#8216;takes virgins, however willingly&#8217;, I can&#8217;t quite support. In every case, the woman initiated the intimate behavior. After he chased and saved Avhienda, she said something about not being able to fight the truth any longer (a reference to what she saw in the Ter&#8217;angreal in Rhuidean, that she would fall in love with Rand, something a Maiden wouldn't wish), and made the move on Rand. After learning about Herid Fel's death, Min &#8216;demanded&#8217; that Rand &#8216;comfort&#8217; her. After the three of them bonded Rand, Elayne told him there was something of him the others had had that she had not, and she was going to correct that now. Except for Elayne&#8217;s case, since in Rand's mind it more or less closed a circle for him and the other two were 'OK with it', he was both reluctant beforehand and apologetic afterward. Not the emotional posture of a dragon &#8216;ravaging&#8217; virgins.<br /><br />As to the Dragon, and how people in Randland know what a dragon is, that remains unanswered. But note that really only a few knew what a dragon was. Even Moiraine, while explaining the Dragon banner in EotW, is describing as from knowledge gained from an ancient writing. Everyone else seems to be forced to accept on faith that the strange creature represented on the banner and on Rand&#8217;s arms is a dragon. That the Aiel are called the People of the Dragon is discovered by Rand in his endless research at Tear, and a closely held secret of the Aiel who have visited Rhuidean. Besides, as has already been posted, how do we know what a dragon is? A mythical beast can be a mythical beast and culturally understood in Randland as easily as our own world.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 11:09:13
subject: <b>Dragon</b>
body:
There must have been at least one dragon in the history of the wheel of time!? how else could they have a correct picure of a dragon and call it a dragon! I mean if the dragon banner was called the &quot;mufflon banner&quot; or some thing like that instead of the dragon banner it woulde not be so strange, face it in another world compleatly diffrent from are own could they really have come up white the the name dragone and the same image of it as us???


created: 2001-09-06 13:17:56
subject: <b>i'm confused</b>
body:
why are you all discussing whether there are dragons in the books?<br /><br />aren't the raken and the morat'raken (or whatever the larger ones are called) dragons? sure, they're not called dragons, but they certainly match the description. and, i could be mistaken here, but doesn't the guide mention that there are flightless raken, too? that would match the banner. they don't breathe fire or anything, but that's just one portrayal of dragons. i've read some books where they weren't magical creatures, just creatures. couldn't this be the same? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-09 06:18:27
subject: <b>Really....</b>
body:
How do you *know* Min, Elayne, and Avi are virgins?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Aviendha for one seems like the type to sleep around, Elayne &quot;gets attached to hurt animals&quot; (EotW, after Rand falls over the fence), and Min seems like quite the butch lesbian, if you ask me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-13 01:41:56
subject: <b>Dragon Kings</b>
body:
I agree with an above post saying that how do we know what dragons are like.   WOT could have the same types of myths about dragons.   I disagree with the main post about the destruction and all caused by dragons.   This assumes dragons are in fact destructive and, in my opinion of this assumption, inherantly evil.   In all books I have read about dragons, they are the great magical beasts.   Rarely are they evil and destructive.   Perhaps LTT was called The Dragon because he was a great magical ruler.   It is said he was Tamyrlin seat way back when.   Rand is just LTT reborn and therefore The Dragon Reborn.


created: 2002-01-21 01:54:17
subject: <b>I See Two Dragons</b>
body:
Rand does seem to leave a wake of destruction behind himself, doesn't he.  The difference is that he saw that bleak future as a new destroyer, and has tried to prevent that deep descent into a new dark age after his breaking of the world.  He has a purpose and a plan that he hopes will lead to a rebirth of knowledge and things lost.  That &quot;school&quot; seems to be his desperate hope for a positive legacy.<br /> <br />  The &quot;dragon&quot; seems more impersonal to me.  Everybody else seems to be trying to leash the &quot;dragon,&quot; and they see him as that dragon.  That &quot;dragon&quot; might follow him, rest on him, but he seems to be trying to ride it, direct it.  And Cadsuane seems to be the one who can teach him how without being consumed by it. <br /><br /><br />  Thus, while he is &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot; and all that suggests, he does fight the impersonal &quot;dragon's&quot; destructive power.  He spends laborious time building an academy for te preservation and study of knowledge, and founding the Black Tower, trying to forge alliances and bind people to him; yet when he battles the Forsaken, he destroys almost indescriminantly, quickly, and profoundly.  A change came, though, when he worked with Nynaeve to cleanse saidin. He used the power to heal.  The two halves of the power working together seems an important symbol.  The need for balance, the need for others.<br /><br />  Besides fighting the DO, he fights the impersonal dragon.  He might have to face the DO alone, but it seems he can't fight the &quot;dragon&quot; alone.<br /><br />Brett<br />


created: 2002-10-22 23:11:06
subject: <b>Wrong dragon.</b>
body:
I'm going to have to disagree with this one; while the theory is well thought out, it overlooks one key point: you're comparing Rand to a traditional European dragon. The dragons on LTT's banner and Rand's arms are clearly Asiatic dragons, of which there is an entirely different tradition in terms of personality: they can be dangerous, but they are generally wise, kind (at least compared to their Western counterparts), and reclusive. Rand doesn't really fit any of those traits.


created: 2003-05-02 16:27:31
subject: <b>Whehw could have the people on randland seen dragons?</b>
body:
This is abit of the topic, but... To comment the discussionn about the mynt of dragon&#180;s in the randland, the first i thought that occurred to me was that the origin of it is from the other world&#180;s, the other possible wolrds. It was in the first or the secon book that rand first accidentally used the gatestone (?) that lead him, hurin and loial to a other world. That other world had some of those monsters that the seancan use. So perhaps in some of the dimension the are dragons as well? ( but i don&#180;t think the drangons are the same as raken, the do differ considerably, the dragon depicted in tehe books having 4 legs and all.)


created: 2004-10-06 18:10:32
subject: <b>About this &quot;Dragon&quot; title</b>
body:
Every time I go back and read the Wheel of Time from the beginning, I'm struck with how powerful and appropriate the Prologue to TEOTW is:  The story of LTT and Ishy.  This chapter is, IMO, one of the VERY best ones in all of WOT.<br /><br />So take a look at some of it.  Throughout the chapter, Ishy refers to LTT as &quot;Kinslayer.&quot;  Except at the very end:<br /><br />&quot;On the island the air shimmered and coalesced.  The black-clad man stood staring at the fiery mountain rising out of the plain.  His face twisted in rage and contempt.  'You cannot escape so easily, DRAGON.  It is not done between us.  It will not be done until the end of time.'&quot; (TEOTW, paperback ed., p xiv, emphasis mine)<br /><br />This is the only time in the chapter that Ishy calls LTT &quot;Dragon.&quot;  And Ishy was always the DO's major proxy in the world of men, who claimed to know secrets of the battle between Dragon and DO from the beginning of time.  So if this is the title that the Creator's champion has in every Age, what the heck does it mean?<br /><br />Well, look at the two Dragons that we know.  LTT transformed his society from a peace-loving bunch of philosophers and singers into a war machine, with its sole purpose being to stop the Shadow.  Rand has ripped the world apart, sending people scattering over the face of Randland.  Both have brought extreme change.  And people fear change.<br /><br />I do think that the title &quot;Dragon&quot; has an inherent negative connotation.  The Messiah figure of WOT is no belevolent, merciful Christ figure.  The Dragon destroys even as he saves.  It is another element of the Wheel and the Pattern.  Balance is the key behind them, and therefore the Dragon must bring negative change as well as salvation.<br /><br />If you need further proof that the title &quot;Dragon&quot; is not a good one, take a look at one of the prophecies at the end of the Prologue of TEOTW:<br /><br />&quot;And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone.  The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World.  The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes.  The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead.  All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World.  And him they named Dragon.<br />                (from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,<br />                 The Breaking of the World.<br />                 Author unknown, the Fourth Age)&quot;<br /><br />(TEOTW, paperback ed., p xv)<br /><br />It doesn't get any clearer than that.


created: 2004-12-13 21:02:01
subject: <b>wha......?</b>
body:
I was gonna comment on the fact that it really doesnt matter if rand is like a dragon or not, but im still confused about the kiss the football thing at the end. what is that about?


created: 2006-02-25 00:22:34
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
...I find it odd when people post without actually reading what they are commenting on.  He wasn't speaking about dragons literally, he was making a commentary on Rand having the aspect of a dragon (i.e. Rand being a destructive force, ect. ect.).  For those of you that did read and found out...congratulations!  You get a gold star!  *ding!*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 18:26:05
subject: <b>What about the Forsaken?</b>
body:
While the Whitebridge theory makes sense, I am having trouble with it. If the Whitebridge is an angreal or sa'angreal attuned to men, wouldn't Asmodean, Demandred or Sammael have used it. Why would Sammael have been so obsessed with the cache of Objects of the Power in Ebou Dar if he could just have used the White Bridge. If it is more powerful than Callandor, then he wouldn't have had to take it anywhere, he could affect the world with it being where it is. He, or any of the male forsaken, could have killed Rand long ago. They knew about Callandor, why wouldn't they know about the Whitebridge, especially since it must have been made before the taint was put on Saidin.


created: 2001-05-07 19:34:50
subject: <b>If Whitebridge were a ter'angreal...</b>
body:
What would its use be in the story? I agree with Apollyon that the FS would probably figure out that there was a huge sa'angreal in the middle of a town (although maybe not; it's hard to tell how well they've explored the world). But if Whitebridge were just used to help people Travel, who could it help? Siuan and Leane are (I think?) really the only &quot;main&quot; characters in the story who aren't strong enough to make a gateway on their own, but they're not anywhere near Whitebridge, and they're in the company of many Aes Sedai who can Travel. What might be interesting is if Mat and his party somehow get to the outer edge of Andor, and Tuon figures out how to channel... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />But that's just wishful thinking on my part.


created: 2001-05-07 20:50:16
subject: <b>Good idea, but can't be so.</b>
body:
This could be just an interesting bit of the world that RJ adds for us theorizers...<br /><br />But I think the ter'angreal idea makes sense, and the bridge idea is symbolic (punch a whole in the pattern, then bridge the gap).  It could also be something to help heal severing, but only if it predates the Age of Legends.<br /><br />Whitebridge isn't far from Caemlyn...many Asha'man could skim there as a staging point for a huge army teleport.  And perhaps you could use it from a distance (use it to go to whitebridge, then go wherever from there)<br /><br />EOTW was originally going to be one book in 6, I've never heard of it originally standing alone.<br /><br />The main problem with the theory is that the breaking of the world diverted rivers and such, so it must have been built after the breaking.  Why would a male ter'angreal of that power be manufactured after the taint?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 21:04:30
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
I REALLY doubt that Whitebridge is a angreal or anything of the sort....other than a really big bridge that won't wear down.  If it was, we would have heard about it from one of the forsaken, especially if it had any useful means.  The lack of its mention in conversations means NO USE.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Galahadred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 23:09:42
subject: <b>The Fade</b>
body:
That 'flicker of shadow' could have just been the Fade that later appeared in the town, who is to say that he wasn't moving along the edge of the bridge as to not be seen? That would easily explain said 'shadow', being a Fade is more or less completely black.<br /><br />-Rawin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-08 02:39:38
subject: <b>Why not a door?</b>
body:
The idea of the Whitebridge being a object of power is intresting.However if it is I believe it would have a more limited use.What else is in the general area.The other mysterious object in the area is The Tower of Ghenjei.Their has never been a way into the tower.So if it is true that the Whitebridge is related to the power I vote for the tower.


created: 2001-05-08 04:49:42
subject: <b>IF...</b>
body:
<br />If I recall right, whitebridge is ter'angreal and it's made by(and for) both male and female!!!<br /><br />Don't remember were igot that one????


created: 2001-05-08 16:39:28
subject: <b>The &quot;elusive&quot; male sa'angreal...</b>
body:
This would be a comment to Bad Ash's comment <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />!<br />You (if I may be so personal) say that it might be<br />th elusive male-angreal (I'm saying this so we all know what I'm refering to). As already potsted it is highly unlikely that iut is infact a remnant of the AoL (no river there then!!) but this is beside the point.<br />Since everybody should have read WH already tha answer is in fact that the elusive male (sa')angreal is [can't remember the name] that is buried close to Cairhiren, and requires an accesss ter'angreal found in Rhuidean.<br />This if of course mentioned elsewhere, i.e. tGH, I believe.<br />Now this settled let's get to the interesting part. If both<br />access ter'angreal were separated in AoL AND in shadow controlled territory (acc. the Guide), then HOW did they get to Rhuidean?<br />THat would be interesting to know!<br /><br />


created: 2001-05-08 17:35:38
subject: <b>wait</b>
body:
everybody seems to be missing something.  The breaking couldn't have changed EVERYTHING!  It diverted many rivers, yes, and etc., but it is likely that some weren't.  Some things had to be left, and Whitebridge might be one of them.  <br /><br />I don't think so, I believe it was built after the breaking, but I had to show the flaw.


created: 2001-05-20 15:07:41
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
ogier could have built it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 21:18:50
subject: <b>side note.. could become important....</b>
body:
All thre forsaken are looking for angreal, well Bayel Domman (the captain of the Spray, maybe not spelled right) is in posesion of one. The man who sold it to him said that if he hold sit for long enuf it would start to get warm but that never happened to Domman or any of his crew (because they cant channel and obviously the man who sold it had the spark). The figure was very old and made of ivory, of a man holding a sword. this may not become important but i dont know why RJ would go to the trouble of mentioning it and describing it as an Angreal if it was just some stupid figurine....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-03 10:49:47
subject: <b>No river?</b>
body:
Is there any evidence from the books which says that there was no river in this location before the Breaking? I'm inclined to disagree with this. I recall something during the boys' trip down the river.  At one point, the boat is going through a deep narrow gorge, and they notice huge statues engraved into the cliffs.   This could mean anything , of course, but it sounds to me that this has always been a waterway, even before the Breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">B.Alicia  <br />------ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Betty <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />------ <br /> <br /> <br />I finished Milford Track! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />February 2007!<br /><br />Grieving the loss of our friend Joe, Crazed Weasel</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 08:45:00
subject: <b>EotW a stand alone book?</b>
body:
I&#180;ve heard that Jordan intened maybe four or five books, but I&#180;ve never heard that EtoW was supposed to be a stand alone book.<br />As for the theori, I find it intresting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Jeromi<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> The man with the Book allways handy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />o<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of Destinyo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> And the happy one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-27 13:58:08
subject: <b>Well yes...but???</b>
body:
I agree that Whitebridge is some sort of angreal, be it ter' or sa'...but I doubt it is stronger than Callandor.  If it were, don't you think the Forsaken would have staked it out long ago?  My guess is that it does something specific, or aids channeling in some specific way.  Likely it is a handy little trick that it does, but nothing that would keep a strong channeler's interest for long.  Rand will probably do something unexpected with the White Bridge, because for some reason I think he will end up back there at some point.  There was something I can't quite identify that just wasn't taken care of when Thom saved him and Mat from the Fade.  But, I could be wrong.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 15:23:46
subject: <b>what if...</b>
body:
Given it's location, rather than an ang or ter, perhaps it is a portal - a portal (a bridge) into and out of the tower of ghenji (sp).    <br /><br />it's omission from books 2-9 could simply be b/c RJ is waiting to use whitebridge to retrieve Moraine later in the story line.<br /><br />the shadow rippling through the structure i find more difficult to interpret.  while i suppose it could be foreshadowing of its connection to the tower (the shadowy place and beings within the tower), i suspect it bears a closer connection to rand unknowingly providing power to it to see through the portal to what lies beyond (as opposed to his intentially manipulating portals later in the series after he has recognized he can channel - cant' remember which book that occurred in).  <br /><br />*perhaps* (read as, &quot;less likely in my mind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> this foreshadows the destruction of the whitebridge after retreiving moraine owing to the presence and use by multiple ta'vern (recall the danger of both rand and mat within the doorway at the same time - &quot;The strain.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />otoh, and this is a *stretch*, the the shadow rippling across the bridge may foreshadow that which will be told mat inside the first doorway, &quot;To give up half the light of the world to save the world!&quot; - rippling shadow signifying what happens when half the light is given up - darkness falls. i find this far less plausible.<br /><br />Thoughts ?


created: 2002-05-10 14:45:46
subject: <b>Perhaps</b>
body:
I recall somewheret that the White Bridge was built using both halves of the Source. I think Moiraine was explaining it to one of the girls.It needn't have been built during AOL, since two other large constructs were built after the Bore wassealed: The Eye of the World and The Stone of tear. (OK, so did the AOL end w/the sealing, or the end of the Breaking?) It seems plausible that they could still have made *angreal before the death of the last male AS.<br />As for the statues carved on the banks, they could have been Manethereen or Aridholan rulers carved long afterthe Breaking.<br /><br />My looney theory: It was made after the Bore was sealed to bridge the gap between north and south and has nothing to do with channeling or the  Tower of Ghenji. The shadow Rand saw was the Fade using the bridge. (I am probably wrong about this).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 23:18:10
subject: <b>more stuff</b>
body:
Joe,<br /><br />&#8220;The White Bridge is a remnant from the Age of Legends and was built with the One Power.&#8221; <br /><br />&#8220;It is wilderness from Baerlon to Whitebridge, the only bridge across the Arinelle south of Maradon.&#8221; <br /><br />Picked the above up off of:<br />http://photeus.com/~ewot/books/teotw/ch26.html<br /><br />For a handy map, see here:<br />http://www.tor.com/sites/wheel_of_time/gifs/map_lg.jpg<br /><br />I have read elsewhere of a connection between the shadow rippling on the bridge and the Fade - a reasonable hypothesis. Indeed, by use of the term &#8220;shadow&#8221; rippling on the structure, it makes even more sense, especially that early in the series (Book 1, chap 26).  Still, I like the portal/bridge to the Tower connection and will run with that as my looney theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just had a thought about our long lost heroine, Moraine.  Has there ever been a Hero that was Aes S. (aka, professional busy body) ?  With the probable rebirth of Lanfear as Cyndane, we could also assume that Moraine in fact did die along with Lanfear.  Moraine is just too important a character to kill off mid-way through the story, so I would bet that she will return at some point.  While it has been posited that she may still be stuck in the land of netherworld (if alive) to be saved by Thom/Mat/whoever, is it possible that she has filled the void in the Heroes team in the wake of Bridget being ripped away?   Will Moraine return when the Horn is next called !?<br /><br />(OK, that&#8217;s my looney theory 2.)<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-06-04 16:59:12
subject: <b>Ah, OK.....</b>
body:
Basil,<br /><br />    Mea culpa. Yes, the Bridge was made during AoL. As for its purpose, I am not yet convinced of the connection w/the Tower of Ghenji, for simple physics. I recall Bayle Domon saying the Tower was used as a marker, for 10 days out of Whitebridge. Assuming 5 mph (I don't know how fast rivers flow, or the boats on them, having lived all my life on a relatively small island), this means that the Tower of Ghenji is 5mi/hr * 24 hr/day * 10 days from Whitebridge = 1200 miles. Even if the boat was moored at night, this is still roughly 600 miles away. Were it connected to the Tower, you'd think they'd have loacted them closer together. Of course, knowing the *finn, maybe 1200 miles isn't far enough.<br /><br />The existence of the bridge and its age implies a few things, though:<br />1) The Arinelle River has been flowing through there for more than 3000 years, unaffected in that location by the breaking (maybe it had a different name);<br />2) Having no Darkfriends or Shadowspawn in the AoL, it wasn't likely designed as an alarm against such;<br />3) They sure don't make things like they used to!<br /><br />I was under the impression that the Tower of Ghenji predates the AoL. If so, this weakens the connection between the two, but certainly doesn't preclude it. The Bore is proof that the &quot;geniuses&quot; of the AoL are capable of blunders, even (&quot;Hey, what a nice shiny tower. Let's see if we can find a way inside....aaaaagh!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I still like to think that The Whitebridge is simply one of the few surviving marvels of the AoL, proof of what can be accomplished when saidin and saidar are used together, and that Rand got to see what a Fade looks like when crossing a bridge.<br /><br />Aloha,<br />Joe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 00:10:36
subject: <b>The Bridge</b>
body:
I think it's probably just a bridge.<br /><br />A real neat bridge, a thing of sci-fi wonder.  The description in the first volume makes a startling contrast with the oxcart world Jordan has so brilliantly created. Especially when the sense of a depopulated world around the bridge is thrown in. Really rams home the Age of Legends; the point never has to be made again that the action is taking place in an after-catastrophe world. <br /><br />Jordan may intend to use it for more, but he doesn't have to.  And if he decides in the end that a bridge is just a bridge, who is to know?  The series isn't unbalanced with his current treatment of the bridge as a thing to cross over the river on.


created: 2002-06-19 14:31:24
subject: <b>yet more whitebridge stuff</b>
body:
Joe,<br /><br />Good stuff there.<br /><br />Regarding a marker. Very well could be.  OTOH, anything could serve as a marker and this could just happen to be used b/c it's the only obvious and permanent object in that area.<br /><br />&quot;The existence of the bridge and its age implies a few things, though:<br />1) The Arinelle River has been flowing through there for more than 3000 years, unaffected in that location by the breaking (maybe it had a different name);&quot;<br /><br />I thought about this.  It seems somewhat strange that a river would not have a rather large change of course over a 3,000 year span.  Well, unless it is flowing over rock at that point and the river would just carve out a bigger and bigger canyon over time.<br /><br />&quot;3) They sure don't make things like they used to!&quot;<br /><br />hehe.<br /><br />&quot;I still like to think that The Whitebridge is simply one of the few surviving marvels of the AoL.&quot;<br /><br />i plead ignorance on this point.  What non-magical marvels were/are there?  As I sit here today I cannot think of any AoL wrought thing which doesn't have some functionality apart from being capable of being walked across.  But, I'm not exactly a WOT scholar either.<br /><br />Perhaps book 10 will shed more light on this issue.<br /><br />Lastly, &quot;The Bore is proof that the &quot;geniuses&quot; of the AoL are capable of blunders, even (&quot;Hey, what a nice shiny tower. Let's see if we can find a way inside....aaaaagh!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps you can answer a question i've been puzzled by.  I have assumed that the &quot;bore&quot; is in a discrete location up there at shay...gho...(however that is spelled).  Yet pieces of those cuen. seals are being found all over the map.  <br /><br />Why?  <br /><br />I would have thought that if found, they would be up north at the bore.  If the forsaken take them as momentos, I would think they would not allow them to fall into the hands of others for fear that someone could figure out how to re-make them and later seal them up again (i suppose their arrogance might betray them on this).  <br /><br />Your humble servant and custodian of useless knowledge,<br />Basil  <br />


created: 2005-04-12 15:21:46
subject: <b>Cuendillar</b>
body:
Looking at the books, I have antoher theory for Whitebridge. It is made of heartstone. Proof? *Angreal and *sa'angreal have always been described as 'age-darkened ivory', and ter'angreal can be made of many things. Whitebridge, however, is 'milky white'. I've only found cuendillar with that description. It is possible that Aes Sedai, when it was still possible, took iron from the ground using the power, and fashioned it into a bridge. Then they simply put the Cuendillar weave into place, and TA-DA! Whitebridge. <br />A simple explanation that make take HUGE strides from established fact, but what if, as Aes Sedai can sense Dark One's creature, the bridge showed the shadow from the use of power in its making.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 10:48:03
subject: <b>well, no, I guess...</b>
body:
Taht's VERY nice, but I don't feel it will be like that. Why couldn't Rand just DIE at the last battle? Maybe he'll be tired of life or something! Please don't assume sistematically that he'll live (I'm NOT saying he'll die, though).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 14:47:00
subject: <b>Lews Therin</b>
body:
I imagine Lews Therin as a pretty big hero...<br />But he never got called back by the horn.<br />Eat that you cheesemonger of death!!!!!


created: 2001-05-22 15:06:04
subject: <b>Not bad at all.</b>
body:
I like this theory at it's premise, though I can't say I'm anything like convinced it has more than logical merit for possibility. My drawback to it is that it comes off as selfish. If Rand's status as a Hero ties him to the Horn, why sever that just to live in the current waking world? I agree with Wotmania's reply that it would sever him from the Horn if indeed he did get tied to it in T'A'R beyond his death, since Birgitte seems to have the only clear comment on this and she is convinced that she has been severed from the Horn. I don't agree with Wotmania that his existing Warder bond with his three loves will interfere with this plan, since death destroys that bond, allowing for the bond to be made anew as Elayne did for Birgitte to save him from the trauma of being torn from T'A'R. <br /><br />Mat posts an objection that LTT is a Hero, but not tied to the Horn, and therefore the Dragon Reborn shouldn't be. I'm afraid that in LTT's case, the big &quot;Aw-shoot&quot; of starting the Breaking and earning the title Kinslayer outweighs his courage and greatness involved in resealing the Bore, and loses him the kind of Hero place that would tie him to the Horn.<br /><br />I do have to ask this. Was Nynaeve actually conscious when Moggy knocked Birgitte from T'A'R, and was it something of the Power, or a knowledge of the dreamworld that did it? If either of those roadblocks turns out valid, it doesn't prevent this scenario, it simply means than instead of Nynaeve getting Rand out of T'A'R, it would be Egwene, with some as yet unlearned knowledge of T'A'R, or perhaps this is one of thos forbidden secrets of T'A'R that she will pry from the Wise Ones to help Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 16:42:13
subject: <b>Okay, this is all fine and dandy, but...</b>
body:
I personally like this idea, but I agree that Nyn does -not- have the knowledge of the world of dreams to do something of that sort. But what does she know? HEALING! I remember someone making the comment along the lines of Nyn not being happy till she has healed someone 3 days dead... Three days dead? That ring a bell? Rand dies, is dead for 3 days and is mayhaps resurrected? &quot;And on the third day he rose again...&quot; Blah, blah, blah. I've also heard it said that Rand is a Christ like figure, wouldn't this make it so?<br /><br />Just my humble opinion,<br /><br />-Rawin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-23 02:46:52
subject: <b>A bit corny</b>
body:
Having Ny or someone else &quot;Rip&quot; Rand out of Tel' after he died would leave a lot of readers (myself included) unsatisfied.  I think most people would be disappointed if there wasn't a tear jerking finish which had Rand dying in the arms of Elayne, Min and Avienda.  I myself would feel cheated if it suddenly turns out that Rand is able to resurrected because he has become a &quot;hero&quot;, thus tying him to Tel' and the horn.


created: 2001-05-23 06:17:15
subject: <b>Lew Therin not recalled</b>
body:
I think the main reason he was not recalled is because he was already there, i.e in the body of Rand al'thor, as the horn calls the souls back, and Rand's soul is Lews Therin's soul, the dragon reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 10:15:26
subject: <b>Christ</b>
body:
The allusion to Christ is So elegant, i wonder how it could be otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 11:56:39
subject: <b>crack my fingers and away we go</b>
body:
NO<br /><br />rand as a bit of a chance to survive the end as it stands now<br />not one prophecy states that rand must die (as it stands now)<br /><br />second the heroes were called from beyond the grave not the dream world <br />how many heroes have we seen in dream land two birgitte and cain we've also seen slayer but he lives there and can't be called a good guy can he<br /><br />third brigitte almost died die no more they would not take the risk<br /><br />fourth bridgitte isn't bound to the wheel anymore and if rand isn't the world is screwed <br /><br />got to go <br />that wuz fun thanks


created: 2001-05-30 13:16:42
subject: <b>Rand and Birgitte (Bound or not Bound)</b>
body:
I think that the scenario suggested is possible.  It might even explain Min's strange vision in CoS  that Rand will merge with another person (LTT) and one will die.  <br /><br />I haven't seen a better idea how Rand can die inorder to live.  Nynaeve ressurecting Rand doesn't seem very likely IMHO.  Ressurection is just too potent.  In addition, I think it would be too offensive to many Christians with its parallels to Christ.  (Other than the blatant parallels with Mary and Nynaeve (coming from Masema's mouth no less) in tFoH, and some White Cloak stuff (Children of the Light) and pillow friends, RJ seems to be trying to avoid controversy in WoT.)<br /><br />On the other hand, NO theory about Rand dying and living makes sense to me. I think this is a RAFO, unfortunately.  <br /><br />Now, about Birgitte not being bound to the horn, I don't think there is any evidence that Birgitte isn't bound any more.  Her fears after being ripped out are mostly about what will happen to Gadal this incarnation combined with temporary hysteria.  The only 'evidence' that I can come up with is the statement by Artur Hawkwing that sometimes the wheel adds to the number of Heros.  This means, most likely, that the wheel has to loose heros every once in a while.  Birgitte by violating the 'precepts' (what ever that means) is a viable candidate for this.  There is too many ifs and buts in this line of reasoning, though.<br /><br />There ARE some small hints that Birgitte is still bound to the horn.  The first is Birgitte's vague memory about a woman warder from a long time ago.  It is possible that this memory is of a legend about herself as a warder to Elayne.  IF this is true, the implications is that she is still bound to the wheel.  Second, are the visions that Min sees around Birgitte.  She is sure that there are too many for one lifetime.  (With the possible exception of EotW, all of Mins visions are about the future.)  This may mean that Birgitte may live a VERY long time.  Who knows how ripped away heros age.  On the other hand, this may be auras of future lives of Birgitte, in which case Birgitte is still bound to the wheel.<br /><br />About Rand being bound to the wheel,  I am sure that in EotW it is mentioned somewhere that the dragon reborn is bound to the wheel.  That Hawkwing's identification of Rand as LTT, Rands cordial relationship with the heros, and his knowledge of hundreds of names for each hero are all suggestive that Rand is bound to the horn.  In addition, that purpose of the heros, as stated by Artur Hawkwing, to keep the pattern in line and on track, is consistent with the purpose of the dragon. <br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 17:10:04
subject: <b>Resurrection</b>
body:
I would really hate it if Nyn brought Rand back from the dead. (even if it seems likely)<br />As I see it (worst case scenario) Lan and Rand dies Nyn brings them back but everybody ignores the thousands of people that died in the battle.<br /><br />King Mattin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-31 18:57:42
subject: <b>Rand... close to Christ</b>
body:
I've been doing some more thinking since my last comment, and I've also read the viewings and dreams again and no, none mention him dying, but on a funeral bed, or sick bed, near dying... So, he could be healed after that. But I still full-heartedly believe that it will be three days after and the world will believe him dead. (He is in hiding of course!)<br /><br />-Rawin


created: 2001-06-02 13:24:46
subject: <b>One problem...</b>
body:
Everybody that lives is wotworld is reborn, according to their religion.  Everybody bound to the horn is like Birgitte and Gaidal Cain.  There is circumstancial evidence (Hawkwing's recognition of Rand) that the dragon is bound to the horn just like Birgitte, after all, he always tends to pop up at the world's &quot;greatest hour of need&quot;.<br /><br />Tsk, tsk...you should really study up on your wot religion.  I like the rest of the theory, though!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-04 15:55:06
subject: <b>Rand and The Last Battle</b>
body:
Alright, here are my thoughts. Rand WILL NOT die in the Last Battle. If you look at the prophecies you see that they call for the blood of Rand on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. And let's see, where could that come from? How about that damn half-healed wound that seems to break open every time he gets into a fight. He will defeat the Dark One and perhaps lose lots of blood and come close to death just for some suspence for all those expecting him to die. All in all he is healed by Nynaeve or some other Aes Sedai and lives. After that it is up to RJ. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-05 17:32:29
subject: <b>Off the subject a 'lil...maybe?...kinda?</b>
body:
I'm not sure if this is off the subject, but personally, I think I know whether Birgitte (sp?   too lazy to look) was ripped ot of the Pattern.   I think she was torn out when Moghedian (again, sp) ripped her out, but it is of my opinion that she will do some great things this time around that will allow her back into the Pattern.   (Like when that guy was talking to the sniffer in Great Hunt, I'd go into more detail but it's summer break, and I'm too lazy to do any real work.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-05 17:37:38
subject: <b>Curse the foul demons that so haunt my user signature!!</b>
body:
::blasts evil typo demons into bad-people land with his wand of goodness::<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 00:28:32
subject: <b>Speaking of the horn and such</b>
body:
Is Hurin still alive? I don't recall seeing him after the Great Hunt but that was Ingtar who died (Verin seemed to do some kind of quick forecasting and determined that one would fall).<br /><br />   By the way what are the odds that Ingtar could have been bound to the horn? His sacrifice certainly redeemed him at Falme. It also paved the way for Rand staying alive. Imagine the look on Rands face if he saw Ingtar the next time that Mat blows the horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 22:02:08
subject: <b>duality thoughts</b>
body:
A lot of the prophecy states that rand gets marked twice...<br />twice the dragon, twice the heron.... <br /><br />1:Twice and twice shall he be marked,<br />twice to live, and twice to die,<br />Once the heron to set his path.<br />4:Twice the heron, to name him true.<br />Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.<br />Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay.<br /><br /><br />(from wotism.org, cause it's got all the prophecies listed)<br /><br />but there is that twice to die thing<br /><br />but also, a twice to live<br /><br />sortof implying, in my opinion, that he dies twice and is reserected twice<br /><br />Or he has lived twice (as LTT and rand) and dies twice (once as ltt, already done, and again as rand)<br /><br />but if thats not the case, what if he is dead right now?<br /><br />The end of WH ends with rand in a interesting state - not even cadusane (sp) knows how he'll come out of it<br /><br />that could be the first death<br /><br />if that is so, he is supposed to die a second them, at least that is how i read the prophecy<br /><br />But also, remember, someone above commented on the funeral beir and three women around it - thats a min viewing, and while the USUALLY come true, it is not always - but if he was to die twice, then perhapse, it is to happen in the next book.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Calis, Lover of many<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Spettio - One and True Love &quot;Moo&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Rhapsody - Sinfilled Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Hollie - Forbbiden Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> B.Alicia - Emotional Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Clover - Love in Waiting<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Catriona - Princess Bride Love</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-10 22:48:24
subject: <b>can't rand rest?</b>
body:
i think that if rand does become a Hero of the Horn and that is this is really the LAST battle than wouldnt all the heroes be put to rest? if so then rand can die his last death and have his new life in legend alone. . tell me if this doesnt make any sense<br /><br />Rift<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 09:02:46
subject: <b>How Rand Will Live after Tarmon Gaidon</b>
body:
I agree with RabidWombat on this one. Around Lord of Chaos (maybe before, maybe after) Min says to Rand that she says TWO men in his aura, and she's scared ONE of them will die and the other will live. <br />Lews Therin Telamon is, of course, one of the men in Rand's aura, and he is going to get his wish in Tarmon Gaidon. Lews Therin's spirit will die when Rand receives his fatal injury. Rand won't. Probably. Robert Jordan has made a few twists in the last few books. The whole point is that Rand is the Dragon REBORN, an incarnation of the Dragon. So my assumption is that the Dragon spirit will die, allowing Rand to take his place in the society AFTER to either lead the people or live his life as a normal person. This only works if Rand defeats the Dark One. Otherwise, I'd imagine Rand will die and the Dark One will turn LTT to evil.<br />It'd be NICE to see Rand survive - esp. as he's already got six kids forecast in his future! not counting Min's, of course (what was Jordan thinking! Poor Aviendha)- but chances are 50/50. Nynaeve may or may not receive the ability to Heal the dead (she'll learn if Lan dies!) but who's to say she'll be around when Rand does die?<br />As for Tel'aran'rhiod, it's possible - look at Birgitte - but unlikely. If the Dark One is re-imprisoned, and the hole is filled, what use will the Horn of Valere be? If there is no evil to battle, people can only sound it for glory, not salvation. Using Tel'aran'rhiod as a portal for the dead is dangerous. Birgitte is no longer Birgitte of the stories - she is Birgitte Trahelion now. A new identity. She isn't dead, but she isn't who she used to be.<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-26 08:11:15
subject: <b>The Last Battle</b>
body:
Just wanted to mention that Rand will probably defeat The Dark One in the Dreamworld. Read the third book, the chapter when Egwene gets the ring from Verin


created: 2001-08-12 13:22:52
subject: <b>For Light's sake!</b>
body:
LTT and Rand al'Thor are not 2 seperate entities! One cannot die without the other as they are one and the same!<br /><br />Anyway, ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod sounds like a good way to screw up the Wheel. Unless Jordan allows Birgitte to die in the upcoming books so we can see whether she is tied to the Wheel again or not, they won't dare risk it. Then of course there is the fact that he won't just be Rand, but every single Dragon that has ever existed. If they did tear him out then these memories would gradually fade as they have with Birgitte, but at first they wouldn't be dealing with Rand, they'd be dealing with hundreds (more) of different personalitites and memories and going with the idea that at least half will have terrible memories of the breaking they caused and the death of loved ones like LTT, this Dragon will probably kill himself straight away, 3 women who one single incarnation of the Drgaon has loved will not be able to compete with all the lost loves of the past. Of course, the Dragon who exists in Tel'aran'rhiod between lives is highly unlikely to go near any of these people who would want to tear him out, with all his memories he will know that the risk to the future world is too great so he will avoid them.<br /><br />There is of course no reason that I can see that those who want to can't go and see Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod, although I don't think they'll like what they see even if he does consent to step forwards. They might be expecting to see Rand and his physical appearence will appear so, but not his soul. He will just be one among many.<br /><br />I don't know whether Rand will die at the Last Battle. Of the three possibilties (he dies, he lives, he is resurrected) I'd have to say at this point that no one is more likely than another.


created: 2002-05-09 01:20:06
subject: <b>everybody is reborn</b>
body:
In the book's ive read on more than one place that everyone is bound to the wheel and everybody is reborn, heroes just live their lives after a similar pattern everytime.


created: 2002-05-28 22:10:15
subject: <b>Emphatic &quot;WRONG!!!&quot;</b>
body:
No way. Rand is going to die at Tarmon Gaidon. His point in being alive is to die at Tarmon Gaidon. I don't care what anybody has to say, because I will continue to believe that he's a goner until I get proof at the end of the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 22:13:23
subject: <b>I'm saying this just 4 the hell of it</b>
body:
Rand has something in common with the Undertaker. They can both be referred to by &quot;dead man walking.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 10:58:08
subject: <b>Death</b>
body:
I know that RJ has done an excellent job stearing everyone toward the Rand dying bit of the prophicy, and thankfully I have read a few of you who are not that stupid to believe it.  Prophisies never say what people think they say.  Rand shall spill his blood, could mean that the Aiel will fight, and many of them could die in the battle to come, since they are the people of the Dragon and his family, this also works if a member of his Andoran family dies at the last battle, and then it could always bring some refrence toward groups like the Ashman.  Gee people in his army dying or spilling blood at the last battle, I really can't see how that would happen can you?


created: 2002-11-11 10:37:09
subject: <b>ahhhh...no</b>
body:
i don't think that nynaeve could rip someone out of tel'aran'rhiod, because she didn't see how it was done.  nynaeve didn't see the weaves, either because ripping birgitte out of TAR wasn't a function of the power, or it was because of nynaeve's block that she didn't see the flows being woven.  nynaeve has to see something being done to be able to do it, she has to be able to see the flows


created: 2003-05-01 18:42:13
subject: <b>being a warder</b>
body:
since he is a warder,isn't there a chance elayne, aviendha, and min will die before they can bring him out of tel'a'ran'rioad (sp) if they do? <br />just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-06-03 09:43:32
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
That is a nice theory you have there, and it gives new meaning to The Dragon Reborn! BWUHAHAHAHA... haha...hah...heh....giggle...<br /><br />Anyway, I have to disagree, for I have my own theories on how Rand survives the last battle.


created: 2004-05-07 23:21:45
subject: <b>the wheel weaves.....</b>
body:
As the wheel turns ages come and go and the last battle is fought an endless time for all eternity. I think that rand might kick the bucket.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Death is lighter than a feather.....Duty heavier than a mountain.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 23:49:47
subject: <b>whats the point</b>
body:
Why would Elayne and co. want to have him back. He wouldn't be Rand anymore but he'd be all of his past lives also


created: 2006-01-02 21:17:26
subject: <b>Lews Therin</b>
body:
There are more than just Rand and Lews, all of his past lives exist, ishmael taunts Lews Therin in the beggining of EOtW about having fought over eternity, every dragon or dragon equivalent(names change) is the same person, in a way, Rand isn't Lews, but he IS the dragon, same purpose, but diffrent personality, he is one incarnation, Lewsn is another.  Somehow Ishmael is the same, but isn't a hero, so how is he sustained- perhaps he is attached to the Dark One, then is reborn to become Nae'ablis?


created: 2007-01-12 06:58:30
subject: <b>Spun out ?</b>
body:
Hello, I can't really believe this, but it's not your problem.<br />It's Robert Jordan's problem. Sorry old man, the novels are really great, some fantastic elements link directly to misteries of the real world, but others don't.<br /><br />Birgitte was in Tel'aran'rhiod, but not in the flesh. She was there in the spirit I would call it. Her physical body died, the flesh body died, the soul (and an astral projection of the physical body eventually) went to Tel'aran'rhiod.<br />There are relatations of materialisations of dead spirits in the physical world, but it's not like they have a physical body to live into, just something that becomes touchable and visible for a while, but not the body that lives and dies.<br />So it wouldn't have been possible for Birgitte to assume a material form physical enough to be a legitimate physical body. Beings in the superior/inferior worlds who have no physical body, can only come amongst us for good by being born.


created: 2008-05-27 10:02:34
subject: <b>One thing</b>
body:
this theory actually sounds pretty solid and there's really nothing in the books to contradict it, but birgitte is no longer tied to the wheel. she was ripped out, and im thinkin thats permanent, much like wolves dying in the wolf dream. but the way the scene was described for her, it seems like she was born again. a 28 year old baby without a womb or something similar. and people do seem to think and dream about rand quite a bit, so it seems that he would be tied to the wheel after his original death with the dark one. im also thinking that he would consider it worth it to be ripped out as he has a family after tarmon gai'don. he wouldn't want to miss that, and it seems he most certainly does not desire to be spun out in another age and go through all THAT again. especially if he's just going to be a voice in the new dragon's head. it would really start getting crowded in there then. so thats basically a theory by itself.....


created: 2001-05-22 13:17:06
subject:
<b>Agrees wholeheartedly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> LOL. Quite enjoyable.</b>

body:
We need more serious posts like these!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> The Pike <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Inconsistent Stopper Bye-er <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of Blah Blah Blah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Part-time Superman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Full-time Gutter Buddy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Is my hair on fire? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 13:46:22
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Theories this cohesive and thought-out should be highly glorified.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 15:21:17
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
Sounds good to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paul <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Jenn's sweetie. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.&quot; - Sun Tzu</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 15:23:39
subject: <b>Lezzie fixation?</b>
body:
Whoa. Normally I wouldn't waste time responding to such a post. While I admit that RJ introduces new elements at regular intervals, this is simply too absurd. First off, your initial thought was sufficient. There is no cause for those who honestly serve the light to hide in any way. Even if an aspect of their personal lives was objectionable to polite society, deserving of being kept hidden, their 'larger purpose' has no reason to be closeted.<br /><br />Second, could someone tell me where to find even a suggestion of Moiraine and Siuan being more than close novice friends? I may have missed any reference to them being lovers. All of my trips through the books have included numerous periods of sleep-deprivation, so I can't claim complete cognizance of all details.<br /><br />Third, the supposition that sister-wives among the Aiel is an automatic lesbian relationship is unsupported. In all cultural cases of polygamy, the general style is one wife at a time, and those without a lover's relationship with each other. There isn't a word to suggest that Aiel sister-wives behave any differently from this. The very use of the word 'sister' in sister-wife suggests this.<br /><br />There is one clear example of lesbianism in the series. Shalon and Ailil at Cairhien. And the amount of shame and disgrace that these two feel over it is significant. Shalon is virtually put to the question before she is willing to reveal it (Verin has abilities with persuasion that are more than hinted at being akin to Compulsion, and Shalon had successfully held back from Cadsuane's attempts to know why Rand had them tied under Ailil's bed following the attack). Shalon declares it as having been a reaction of weakness to severe loneliness, not a predilection, and dreads the potential loss of her marriage. Shalon herself believes her actions to have been wrong, and that is much different than just wishing them hidden from societal judgement. Sorry, the whole line of thought breaks down with the thinnest application of logic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 21:28:04
subject: <b>A suggestion for Lord Savaunt</b>
body:
Go take a cold shower. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-22 22:56:17
subject: <b>How do I put a title to this</b>
body:
That has got to be the funniest theory I've ever read on this site, I just wish I knew how you made a theory with that topic seven or eight paragraphs.  Damn its well thought out too.  I don't know about the weird kid above me by two, who thought this was a serious theory, but I whole heartedly agree about every aspect of this theory about all the ambiguously gay duos.  And I think everybody who reads this will agree with me when I say that siuan is obviously the one who wears the tight leather pants and carries the whip in that relationship. If you read this man, write another<br /><br />Kidblondeel<br /><br />too many titles to put down on paper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-23 02:42:45
subject: <b>Good for a laugh!!</b>
body:
I really liked the way you tied in Matt losing an eye with the whole scenario!  Well thought out.  Everyone who I know who has read it has had tears in their eyes from laughing so hard.  Mind you, would it be as funny if RJ decided to use the idea.....  Wow, I'm starting to sweat just thinking about the scene..


created: 2001-05-23 05:06:53
subject: <b>Taking a bow</b>
body:
First of all thanks to everyone who liked my attempt at humor. I wrote this out one friday night after having enough beer to get a buzz on. At the time I couldn't tell if it was as funny as I'd hoped, or just funny to me and no one else.<br /><br />   Call Me Tim I'd thought the tone of my writing had been aimed to indicate that I was being silly (particularly the part at the end about not having any evidence but sticking to it anyway). My intent was to spoof certain theories that have no real evidence and are either speculation or just deep wishing on the part of their authors.<br /><br />   As for Moiraine and Siuan being (former) lovers I clicked on that in 'New Spring' the short story out've a book called Legends. There was a scene where Cadsuane questions some of the Aes Sedai that'd been staying at the same inn as Moiraine about Ms. Damodred. One of them (don't recall the name) said in so many words that Moiraine and Siuan had been pillow friends. As far as I have seen the ternm is used soley as a discreet term for lesbians.<br /><br />   Later Moiraine is thinking about how angry that interview made her and that it's no one elses business hoow close she and Siuan had been as novices. That seemed to be a clear indication to me that the conversation had reffered to a sexual relationship between the two.<br /><br />   Being serious I do agree with you about Aiel sister wives. The idea that Aiel marriages include lesbian sex is totally unsupported. That one sentence in the big white book is hardly any real backing. Again that whole rant was part of the joke.<br /><br />   Again thanks for the praise every one. Kid Blondeel I do plan to write more humor type stuff. When I have some time I plan to get around to doing a fan fic. I just don't if I can ever deliver this level of quality again though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-23 06:22:38
subject: <b>Oh dear</b>
body:
I know a lot of Americans here in the UK, and just like this guy they are obsessed with sex! Love does not equal sex! Look at cultures all around the world, they distinguish between the sexual love and love of friendship. Many cultures allow polygamy BUT that is not mean lesbianism. This  seems like Freudian idiocy, ie. i am a perv so everyone else must be. I am sorry if you find this response offensive, but i felt offended at the suggestion that all men are turned on by lesbianism and all that suggestion about S and M! Come on, mate (or do you think that is a pick up line?!)have 10 cold showers and then read the books again!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-23 06:30:32
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
posted bfore i saw it was a spoof <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-23 07:39:04
subject:
<b>Alleluja!!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I've just printed it out and now everyone in my office can see the best theory on the theory post ever!<br /><br />That could be the perfect alternative ending of the series.<br />I just hope old RJ will makeuse of it.


created: 2001-05-23 10:55:15
subject: <b>He did say....</b>
body:
....that the ending will be nothing we expedt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Galexy_Thief<br />Thief of The great MilkyWay<br />Pirate of the Great collection of billions of stars.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 10:53:12
subject: <b>The reason for the response</b>
body:
Lord Savaunt and others;<br /><br />I am entirely aware that the original post in this thread was intended as pure humor. But I also know that not entirely everyone who might read here would also have that awareness. I felt some obligation to any who would inadvertantly take the theory seriously, to post a serious rebuttal of the facts presented as evidence for your tongue-in-cheek conclusion.<br /><br />If you know that it's humorous, then you shouldn't have any problem with the concept being refuted. A definite 'if the shoe fits' situation.<br /><br />That my response wasn't flamed as being a virtual cold shower surprises me, however. And the response that referred to me as a kid, now that's amusing.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 15:21:53
subject: <b>What?????</b>
body:
I just want to know who the hell incredibly unintelligent and completely stupid and clueless that they would think that this posting was anything but a spoof? I mean, RJ is writing a real story here, and while I laughed my ass off at the post and am a perv like the UK guy said, I would love to see that happen, I'm pretty sure it won't. Wake up, guys. Recognize humor for humor. <br /><br />Apollyon the Destroyer.<br />&quot;And they will have as king over them the Angel of the Abyss, whose name is Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek, Apollyon.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-30 16:08:32
subject: <b>heh</b>
body:
: Light for that matter look at the regualr A'dam and tell me that it isn't a bondage toy for SM games<br />: among channeling women that the Seanchan have been misusing for centuries.<br /><br />Hehehe, you have been reading way too much WoT to use the term light in that matter.  Before long you'll be bloody kissing flaming goats.  (I am quite sure I don't want to know what that means.)<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 17:13:59
subject: <b>Sexual tension</b>
body:
Perhaps I am only sexually frustrated but every scene involving Aviendah and Elayne feels electric, I get the feeling that given the chance, they would tear of each others clothes and jump in the sack. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Maybe it's just me comments...<br /><br />King Mattin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-30 20:42:07
subject: <b>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</b>
body:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br /><br />I have a few BS theories along those lines i need to post.  None about the lezzies, though, GOOD WORK!


created: 2001-05-30 21:34:41
subject: <b>intersting theory</b>
body:
Although I pretty much stopped reading after the third paragraph, it's a very intersting idea nontheless, not one I would take in consideration of course because it really has no effect on the whole WOT plot, but intersting, we need more posts like these instead of the boring and evergoing &quot;Taim is Demandred&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 22:06:03
subject: <b>pillows</b>
body:
well, whenever i heard the term &quot;pillow friends&quot; i thought it referred to something completely different.  I thought it meant that they were like Egwene and Elayne, with the adjoingin novice rooms who would cry to eachother and that kind of thing while getting ready for sleep, therefore, pillows.  Also, we do know that Siuan and Moiraine are, if anyhting, bi.  I'm sure that Mr. Merrilin and Mr. Bryne will be shocked to discover that their destined wives are only interested in eachother...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-31 06:55:33
subject: <b>Quick thought on Siuan and Moiraine</b>
body:
Someone posting on another theory suggested that Siuam and Moiraine were experimenting at a young age. That actually makes more sense given that finding a good man to take into ones bed would be rather difficult while being a tower novice. If not then I agree with the above post that they'd be bi. <br /><br />   I definitely see the connection with Siuan and Gareth, but not so much with Moiraine and Thom. Thoms has a big distrust of Aes Sedai. So I have a bit of trouble imagining things going far with the two of them. Aside from Mins vision of Thom pulling Moiraines stone out've the fire I haven't seen anything else to suggest a connection between the two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 19:12:02
subject: <b>now lets make THAT into a film!</b>
body:
Forget all the questions of whether WOT should be animation or live action-  Its going to be a porn!!!  I knew RJ had something up his sleeve!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-02 20:32:55
subject: <b>Good stuff!!! (could be offensive)</b>
body:
This is some good stuff here!! Nice thinking, I hope that this does happen. What could be better? There is nothing in the world better than a bisexual girl. Well just wanted to say keep up the good work man.


created: 2001-06-03 13:35:51
subject: <b>RE: Quick thought on Siuan and Moiraine</b>
body:
For Lord Savaunt,<br /><br />There are at least three places where Thom refers to Moiraine in a way that shows he is definitely attracted to her. In two of them, he shakes it off by reminding himself that she's Aes Sedai.<br /><br />When Moiraine talks Thom into going to Tanchico with Nynaeve and Elayne, she uses his emotions about Owyn to do it. She then apologizes for it in a way that Moiraine never apologizes for anything up to that point, and told him that she would teach him that not all Aes Sedai are like the Reds who mistreated his nephew. She obviously doesn't have an Aes Sedai purpose for wanting him to have a less adversarial opinion of Aes Sedai, so it must be personal.<br /><br />When Mat gets to Salidar, and gives Thom the letter that Moiraine wrote the day before facing Lanfear on the docks, Thom had just been telling a story about trying to save a woman from a man, and it turning out the woman didn't want to be 'saved'. Mat asks who the letter is from, someone else he tried to save or did he leave her to have her head cut off, and Thom, in a very melancholy way, says &quot;I left her.&quot;<br /><br />The other time Thom mentions the letter, he says that you never know until it's too late if a woman is a friend, enemy, or lover; and referring to the author of the letter, he says, &quot;Sometimes she turns out to be all three.&quot;.<br /><br />Thom has it bad for Moiraine. The only reason there hasn't been more about it is she's assumed dead and he's done with his mourning. <br /><br />Wait until Olver figures out how to beat the snakes and foxes game. It will trigger in Mat a way to beat the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and then they will mount the rescue attempt for Moiraine. They'll have to go back to Tear to do it, or wherever the remaining redstone doorway ter'angreal might have been taken to if it's not still there in the Stone.<br /><br />About Siuan and Moiraine's encounters in New Spring, RJ answered a question regarding that with a question of his own, something to do with dozens of teenage girls packed into the novice quarters of the tower, no significant contact with men, most of them just starting to deal with hormones, what do you expect to happen? In other words, it isn't a predilection, but a by-product of environment. Identical to Shalon and Ailil. Well, at least from Shalon's POV, we've never heard Ailil's. Shalon is happily married, but her husband is far off on another ship, and she's lonely in a strange place. Her and Ailil became acquainted, and it ended up more than that. Shalon so feared the loss of her marriage by having broken her vows her to husband that she suffered under the question for several days before revealing her relationship to Ailil.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 02:37:42
subject: <b>Tim thanks for the downlow</b>
body:
The stuff about Moiraine and Thom had either A) Benn forgotten by me, or B) Not registered at the time. Thanks for taking the time to point out what I'd missed.<br /><br />   By the way I've been meaning to get around to saying something about this particular theory of mine. I might just be the first guy on this site to have ever had a thoery with a content disclaimer beforehand. <br /><br />   That thought just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 18:01:49
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Thanks. reading this was the funniest thing that happened today. But I do beleive you may have unearthed something. Although probably not as signifacant as THAT! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wisdom, Knowledge... Chaos (in a calculated way)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 21:42:36
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
You mean it's not a real theory? And that's the best one I've ever seen, besides Narg and the way of peace... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />RJ definitely needs to see this. It could give him ideas... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 07:01:41
subject: <b>One little problem...</b>
body:
I do not know why I even bother giving a serious reply to this one but...<br />The problem with the lightfriends-as-lesbians theory is that there is at least one known darkfriend who is gay. reread LoC. Galina the leader of the black Ajah is lusting after a green whose warder was killed by Rand. It is also very likely that Liandrin is either gay or an obsessed misandroist; probably both. The same goes for most of the Red ajah which has probably spawned more darkfriends than all the other ajahs together. The Ashaman do not sleep with eachother because they can take their wives to the black tower. They have plenty of opportunity to get off; provided they are straight. <br />


created: 2001-06-11 07:36:10
subject: <b>silly silly boy...</b>
body:
Kudos to your humor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  yes there are lesbians in Randland ... no they arent all &quot;light friends&quot;.  Have you all forgotten Graendal?  i mean c'mon!  there is definately some lesbian action going on there!<br /> <br />so... while the humor is dually noted ... BIG NO to the light friends aspect.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-12 17:25:26
subject: <b>On Graendal, Liandrin and others</b>
body:
I recall Arangar making a pass at Graendal circa book 9, and Graend turned her down flat. Could be that she doesn't want to get kinky with another of the chosen, or is not too keen on having a transexaul girlfriend. That also disqualifies Arangar, she was a man first y'know. <br /><br />   Also I recall a scene where Graendal was using her female slave to do things like makkethmselves int living chairs and such. I only ever got the impression that she was getting a thrill from the degredation of her targets, not from any lesbiatic fixation.<br /><br />   I think that with all the time that Moghedien spent on that A'dam leash with Nynaeve or aomeone else holding the braclet she would be repulsed by getting naked and vulnerable with another woman.<br /><br />   Galina was the one who got snatched by the shaido aiel women right(pardon the unintended pun)? Well IIRC she was taking a bit of pleasure from watching the green avenge her waders death by taking it out on Al'Thors back side. I saw that as her getting her jollies watching Al'Thor get his justice (as she saw it). She probably got a kick out of wathing a Green be even worse than Reds are reputed to be. She might have seen that as a way to get a new recruit over to the dark side of the force.. eh the shadow as it were.<br /><br />   I remember that when in Aiel captivity she was thinking about how she had missed having a man around to manipulate. I may be confusing that with either A) The Red the got abducted by Logain or B) One of the Aes Sedai with the regular wiseones. So that may be a valid point that I misremember.<br /><br />   Liandrin never really showed much in the way of sexuality at all. She was more an equal opprotunistic sadist (of the non-kinky [at least as far as we ever see] pure pain) that liked hurting people. I could see her abusing some one sexually, but more so for <br />wrecking their mind than getting a good shag. The most interaction she had with women was using trick of the power to hurt them, I'm sure that she used them on men just as much.<br /><br />   Besides as of book 8 Liandrin is not even among the definitely living. When she was taken in a Seanchan raid was made into a dacovale of sorts for surtoth. I don't even recall if she wore the choker collar or not. Suroth doesn't seem much interested in sex unless it could get her a better position in life. She could possibly be 'that way' and might be black mailing Liandrin into being her bed side night cap, but that again could be for the purpose of a) degredation, b) lack of men that she would trust in bed [she is a darkfriend and might be sketchy about sharing a bed with someone that she isn't certain about, afterall a wrong syllable uttered in her sleep could get her very killed] c) bonafide lesbonic feelings and one gal she know won't be indiscrete about it. Either way that might indicate Suroth or not, but doesn't make Liandrin anymore les/bi than say Faile T'Bashere N'Aybara.<br /><br />   In reffrence to Semirhage take the paragraph that I used to talk about Liandrins sadism, magnify it by 1000 fold and apply that to Semiraghe. Again, she may like torturing women, but that does not a lesbian make. I think that Semiraghe and Liandrin are probably maladjusted. They never got past that puberty stage of feeling inaddequate and inferior to other girls. So they take their pent up issues on other women. This an attempt to place their apin on another person and push it away from themselves. <br /><br />   When they do this to women they are retalliating for imagined slights or things they blieve the their victims to be thinking. In the case of men they are lashing out against the rejection that they are already certain will be coming from them. In either case they are trying to purge any thoughts of beauty or attraction out of the interaction.<br /><br />    They aren't ready to deal with their on confused sexuality, much less that of anyone else. This could also in the instances of torture to women be a form of gay bashing. They are either paranoid that these women are attracted to them and want to do things that they were raised to believe as sick and wrong. Or they might be feeling lustful attraction themselves and are not able to cope with it. These feelings that mom and dad told them are disgusting and unhealthy make the respective evil women feel dirty and somehow like failure to the ideals that they were raised to believe in. So they attack the women reasoning out that it's their fault, that they are using some sort of 'secret pillow friend mind tricks' to corrupt them and give them unclean ideas.<br /><br />   In the case of Semiraghe she is probably still trying to get past the bitterness that she feels for not having been the person she wanted to be. She grew up wanting to be a doctor and heal people, to her horror she has learned that she derives more pleasure from causing harm than mending it. This has left here with a subconscious feeling of not measuring up to her goals, and letting down all those that supported her. In her heart of hearts she still wants to be a healer, but she can't break the addictive cycle of inflicting pain and watching it's effects.<br /><br />   Liandrin is more of a puzzle. I don't recall too many chapters that deal with her background prior to being raised to the shawl (if there are any you know of please give me book, chapter number and name). It seems evident that she is a vindictive person that may have been abused in her past (may have mind you). She may be stuck in a cycle of her own trying to enact revenge on an abuser that could be long dead. When her victim falls dead the pain is still inside of her unfulfilled because the ture target remains free of the consequences. This causes her to again feel the innadquate self loathing that led to her becoming the sadist that she is. This of course leads to another hurting of a person that may or may not have done anything to wrong her, and thus the cycle enters another revolution.<br /><br />   I think both women could benefit from some thorough theraputic sessions with a trained professional. Finding a psychiatrist or psychologist suicidal enough to take the job would be a bit hard though.<br /><br />   I would also reccomend a session or two for Graendal as her habit for indulging in almost all pleasures may be a fixation or addiction in and of itself. She seems to be constantly trying to compensate for her own percieved short comings by using the talent of compulsion to make people like her more, even worship her in some cases. She seems to be unable to interact with people that are acting under thier own free will. Unless she is absolutely sure that someone adores her, she doesn't feel comfortable in dealing with them. This teds to indicate low self esteem and trouble coping with with others. I recommend an evaluation for further study.<br /><br />   Another one of the forsaken that warants mental care would be Moghedien. After the trauma she has been through I fear this patient may have trouble being open and trusting with almost anyone. While it has been speculated as to whether or not she was raped by Shadar Haran, it seems clear that the trapping of her sould in the Cour'sova has done just as much if not more damage to her psyche. This added to her time as a POW under the torture of the Seanchan restraint device may have shattered what sense of self worth and will to live that the poor girl may have at all. My recomendation is that she be put under suicide watch.<br /><br />   If she should appear to be on the verge of wanting to end her life then by all means something must be done. We are running out of really cool Forsaken, and I'd like to see Birgitte give her a grand royal ass whoopin like there aint no tomorrow. I think that perhaps setting her up with a friend or companion to help keep her spirits would be a good approach to start with. <br /><br />   For this task I recommend a young lady by the name of Cyndane. She seems to have a strong will, endless amounts of determination, and a good sense of humor. They could start off by cracking jokes about what an uncouth and perturbing man that Moridin fellow seems to be. <br /><br />   In fact speaking of Moridin, I think that he is also what's known as FUBAR in the head. He is unfortunately beyond help. So a qucik and simple death is just the thing for him. In fact if we let Moghedien be the one to do it, and have Cyndane assist her, then the effects are two fold beneficial. First Moggy will have something to feel good about. Furhter more she and Cyndane will have bonded. This cans stregnthen their friendship and lead to better things for all.<br /><br />   Cyndane will have someone to care about and hang out with. This friend will come from here own erea of time, and that makes a very big difference. They will have some common ground to talk about. This will help Cyndane adjust to her new life, and make a break from what has gone before.<br /><br />   Moghedien will now have someone to watch her back, and to converse with. She may be able to open up more and put the pain in her past beind her. Having accomplished a great feat with her new found friend she will be much imporved in the field of self confidence. I can just se the two of them smoking pipes of tabac over nice hot cups of Kat Lattes. Doesn't it make you feel all nice and fuzzy?<br /><br />   Finally on the subject of whether or not there is a segment of gay men in the Black Tower. Well without going into tedious ramblings (a bit late for that I suppose) we'll suffice it to say that we will have to Read And Find Out.<br /> <br />   This is Lord Savaunt wishing you well. Until next time.<br />   Be good to each other, and yourselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 18:49:17
subject: <b>Almost forgot one thing....</b>
body:
....What is it with the idea that the Red Ajah is either some kind of nesting ground for 'pillow friends' or the central recruiting post for the Black Ajah? Suerly if I had been able to recall all of the ideas that came to mind when I originally posted this I would have made a snyde remark about their status as pillow friend central. I would have probably gone further and said that my twist ending that would be very twisted would give them a chance to do something other than be the laughing stock of the White Tower and things like that.<br /><br />   However it srikes me as somewhat narrow minded to seriously think (not that I'm implying that anyone has) that they are chalk full of dark/pillow friends.<br /><br />   For starters I don't think being a red makes one more apt to be gay or bi than being a green or a white. The fact that they don't take warders is not any real evidenc at all. Afterall it would be totally unethical to ask a man to protect a woman whose primary funtcion is to cut men off from the source, an action that statistically is almost garaunteed to nullify their will to live. No man could stomach a sight like that too many times and still be ready to die for his protectorate, particularly with the link giving him some possible feed back.<br /><br />    also don't think that being a Red is indicataive of being a man-hater. I recall one red sister either in one of the two aiel factions camp, or with the sisters that got bushwhacked by the Ashamon that was thinking about how much she missed the young boys she used to seduce. I believe it was the Red that got called out of retirement to go after the black tower.<br /><br />   I whole heartedly doubt that any single Red Sister takes an ounce of pleasure form gentling a man. These women are doing a necessary job that has to be done and nothing more. Rember that gentling is just stilling with another name. Every Aes Sedai has a gut reaction of dread when it comes to that (well most of them anyhow), so to have to do it to another person even if he is a man that will eventually go mad and be totally Faster Pussycat Kill Kill style. I would imagine gentling is something that leaves any Aes Sedai crying after that first itme she does it. I t may not be something can be gotten over, only familiar. <br /><br />   I don't think life in the Red Ajah would breed hatred of men, if anything it'd probably breed pity. Reds porbably have a endless collection of jokes about men, andmost likely use them to lighten up the hardship of what they have to do. Having to deny a man of his very will to live and cut his lifespan incredibly short (especially if yours is incredibly long) would have to wear on one after awhile. I think the reason that most reds don't have much contact with men (aside from any sane man not wanting to get too close to them) would stem from their worries about thinking of men like that when they have to do their job. <br /><br />   I really get bristled at the idea of the Red Ajah being a central branch for the black ajah. I don't think anyone ajah is more or less immune from infiltration than any others. The idea that reds are just a rabid pack of man hating bull dykes that will sell their souls to the shadow almost as fast as they'd lift their dresses for another woman.<br /><br />   I think that the reds could arguementatively have the job that runs most counter to the will of the dark one. If there are less men channeling around then there's less chaos to go around. If Shaitdawg wants to have the Lord Of Chaos in Effect, then getting rid of chanellin men folk aint gonna help that out none. Theirs is a thankless task that much of the world hates them for. Day in day out the Red Ajah have had to work diligently to make sure that there isn't another incident like the breaking of the world. All they get is pain, heartache, endangerment of life and ridicule.<br /><br />   I find it ironic that they are the butt of so many jokes (some of those jokes my own) when they may truly be the most dedicated Ajah, with the most dedicated Aes Sedai in all of Tar Valon. They may be the best and most noble of their kind, and they are hated for that. It seems to sum up the way of Jordans unique world so well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 06:02:55
subject: <b>Just a GOD DAMN Minute!</b>
body:
You know, i actually thought this a credible theory until you mentioned the Lesbian Orgy! AND what the hell was that about gay men being evil! NUH-UH. Im gay, and Im hardly evil, how can you say such a thing? I think there should be more references to Male Pillow Friends in the WOT just for balance! Rant rant rant...<br /><br />Silver Asha'man<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b><i>Silver Ashaman</i></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <i>der'morat'homosexual</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Director of Diabetics <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Stouthearted Stutterer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of Orgasms <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Basher of Ba'alzamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Fade Freaker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 06:20:51
subject: <b>Silver Ashamon</b>
body:
I agree with you whole heartedly. As a potentially bi-sexual man myself I think we should have some gay men in the book. I was commenting on the 'possiibility' that one could view the fact that there are lesbians in the books and not any gay men as an alegory to societal views of homosexuality. <br /><br />   If a woman is gay then her lifestyle and sexual habits are viewed more tolerably than a gay mans. Many men find lesbianism to be arousing and like watching it in whatever form you care to name. Most people find male only love to be a bit off-putting to say the least.<br /><br />    I think it has to do with the lack of irregular penetration in woman to woman frollicings. Nothing is being put where it might be seen as totally out of place. With men the... well I think my point is clear with out having to get crude.<br /><br />   I don't think anyone can be said to be evil or good because of their sexual pratices, so long as they involve consenting adults only and do not infringe on the personal boundaries of other. If it's behind closed doors with willing people of proper age then I don't see it as having any kind of moral question or position to it.<br /><br />   While this theory was intended to be seen as light humor I decided to use some examples from the book to demonstrate that I was taking something that is present (if very limited and not too plot affecting most the time). This was just for benefit of not being seen as making up a theroy on something that had no basis in the actual books.<br /><br />   Anyway I was planning on getting around to some humorous fan parody featuring 'plowing pals' as it were. I don't plan to use them for nothing but 'gay people' jokes either. Just a present element in a humorous text. Perhaps I need to find a good woman or man to get my mind out've the gutter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 08:33:34
subject: <b>Lord Savaunt</b>
body:
Couple a' things.<br />One;  How much sleep are you getting?<br />Two;  What are you, a freekin sykiatrist (and I don't give a damn if that's not how it's spelled.)  you almost sounded like you knew what you were talking about<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 13:52:59
subject: <b>i aggre wid Rathan</b>
body:
what a are you goin on about. The theory was Very interisting but that last comment was just mad <br /><br />the Newbie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 22:47:35
subject: <b>Respone to Rathan</b>
body:
Well last week  I was getting little to no sleep at all. I was recuoperating from getting 2 wisdom teeth pulled. So I was taking goood pain killers.<br /><br />   I started out trying to say something serious, I was starting to feel like a funny theory was my only good point. I ended up doing an analysis of some of those characters cause I got bored and was wacked out on good drugs. I thank you for the kind words about my sounding accurate. I am not an actual mind doctor, but I've listened to enough stuff from enough sources that I can run a pretty good act.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 05:07:39
subject: <b>OOOhhhhh....</b>
body:
OK, I can understand that.  But I say again, you make a scary good shrink impression. (and it is now 3:07 on the third consecutive day without sleep, maybe I should log off)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 03:05:25
subject: <b>Where did this start?!?</b>
body:
First off this thread was a very humourous theory anout the end that I would like to come true on video!!! But through the comments it became a psychological profiling &amp; discussion of our societies reactions to homosexuality.<br /><br />I love the WOT life!!!!!!! It is sooo wierd &amp; you never know what will happen next.!!! RJ would be proud!!!!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Killer of the monster under the bed <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-16 05:19:24
subject: <b>Greyslayer</b>
body:
Does it matter where it started, as long as it is funny?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 14:29:14
subject: <b>just one correction to a beautiful theory...</b>
body:
Just one comment on truth...actually male-male action is just as hot for a lot of women as woman-woman action is for men. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />LTT (me, grandiose? never...)<br /><br />P.S. In all truth, I think that until the 'indiscretion' recently, RJ with his military background never even considered making homosexuality a part of his world. All the theories on pillow friends and such are so much wishful thinking, IMO.


created: 2001-09-02 13:57:03
subject: <b>Response to Everything (Hypothetical)</b>
body:
Hmm. I have long thought that should a hypothetical author hypothetically write a series such as this (I neither want to be viciously murdered by rabid archfans nor accused of libel), they would be using the excuse of novels to project their own - preferences - into writing.<br /><br />I mean, look at it. First, there's all the lesbians. Appearing at an exponential rate. First nothing, then one or two, now it is regarded as not being out of the ordinary (at least in the tower - those women with the Oath Rod are assumed at first to be lovers)Nor was the  Windfinder's affair treated as suprising or shocking.<br />Second, there's the whole D/s aspect. The original post mentioned the a'dam - with possibly interesting uses - but there are other examples. Most obviously, there's the whole Perrin/Faile relationship, and the Asha'man/Captive Aes Sedai thing (and logically, the Compulsion aspect of the bonding means that the relationship between the Asha'man and their wives isn't exactly equal, since that's what it was developed for)<br />And I mean (I also mean, that is), the hero of the books ends up with THREE women. One of them a princess. I think there's definate elements of wish-fulfillment here.<br />Oh, and on the subject of the Aeil sister-wives, and Savaunt's suggestion pertaining therof, no ther is no proof, but I wouldn't be surprised. It depends on how much Jordan think's here can get away with.<br /><br />P.S. For those who now regard me as some sort of heretic for suggesting that RJ is human (and spinning out the series for his own profit(I mean look at books 8 and 9, they were clearly meant as one)but that's a different matter), please regard this as a joke. Do not send hitmen to impose your differing view of author psychology upon me.<br /><br />-Salmonius, the Divine Herald, the Voice of Truth, the Chosen One, the unbelievably Arrogant and Egotistical.


created: 2001-09-04 01:01:14
subject: <b>Hey Salmoneus</b>
body:
Just thought I'd say that I appreciate your honesty. It takes a lot more balls to come here and criticize Jordan than to lavish him with praise. You didn't do it maliciously either, you had some valid points to make. I applaud you.<br /><br />  In refference to your thoughts let me just say that wish fulfillment in fantasy is kinda part of the territory. As for the fact that we got lesboactivity galore yet no discernable homoerotica may be because Jordan is moving slowly. Afterall it took him 7 books before he even had any gay women. Like Hooper-X said in Chasing Amy lesbianism is currently more accepted in society. SO in book 10 or 11 we might see some 'Badger Friends' in the Black Tower.<br /><br />   By the way Does anyone find it kinda funny that once women got the upperhand with men being out've the picture as far as channelers there main center of operation was a giant Tower. Hmmmm... Maybe they're trying to compensate for something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 14:46:40
subject: <b>Hey Savaunt</b>
body:
Don't go all Shrekky on us here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 01:18:10
subject: <b>Aiel Women</b>
body:
You're onto something here...I mean Aiel women have to be first sisters before they marry the same man right? And judging from the cremony with Elayne and Aviendha, it means they're pretty much bonded and feel EVERYTHING, and they can't block it out unless they can channel (Min and Birgitte could not block it out).  <br /><br />So, what could be a better way to make this work? &lt;BEG&gt;


created: 2001-11-09 17:15:45
subject: <b>Saidan</b>
body:
After reading the various post pertaining to this subject, and analyzing the amount of thought and logic that have went into it's commentaries by other readers.<br /><br />I have concluded that Saidan must exist in our world today.<br />And is obviously still tainted, because it has driven so many of us male wot-readers completely insane.


created: 2001-12-05 23:25:00
subject: <b>Why isn't this in the Humerous Theories category?</b>
body:
True, it isn't particularly funny, but I wouldn't say that it belongs in the serious theory section.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 13:51:55
subject: <b>Hahahaha...</b>
body:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!<br />And also huh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 23:31:33
subject: <b>Response to CNRedDragon</b>
body:
That's a good question. I don't know why this wasn't put in the humorous section either. Regardless of how funny one might say it is or isn't I certainly didn't intend for it to be a serious work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 23:33:30
subject: <b>Plow-Friends</b>
body:
I can see how this would have been funny to most of you. But personally, as a gay man, I was offended by the remarks against gay men. Fine with me if you want to believe that men loving men is wrong or evil, but to think that bringing up such a belief is a joke just pisses me off. We have to go through more fear and guilt and hatred than just about anyone in todays society. No other group is openly and publicly berated or discriminated against by the masses anymore. For fear of being labeled a bigot one does not bash women, blacks, jews, Orientals or any others anymore in todays society. But gay men are still fair game? You all should be glad that the One Power doesn't exist in this world because I would have to find some way to Balefire your homophobic asses back to the First Age!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> I am The Dragon Reborn...<br /><br />...................Reborn............<br />........Reborn................<br />.................................Reborn...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I hate it when it does that!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Damn Wheel!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 23:50:06
subject: <b>UHHhhh...</b>
body:
How about we go ahead and post all of these responses in the humor section???  Gotta admit, LMAO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The REAL Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The REAL Prince of the dawn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  The TRUE Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Head of the Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  Your just jealous because the voices speak to me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Asha'man, kill! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 23:04:42
subject: <b>To Point Out The Obvious...</b>
body:
Lesbos ain't Lightfriends, you idiot! They already have their own organization, known best as the &quot;Red Ajah.&quot; I've heard rumors of some members of the Emond's Field Women's Circle containing an overwhelming number of bi's.<br /><br />But... is RJ has lesbos, where are the gay organizations? Or, to put it more clearly, when are all the Asha'man going to come out of the closet?<br /><br />This theory was funnier than hell. Thanks for the comic relief. The Light illumine you, Lord Savaunt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 17:44:01
subject: <b>If I were the creator.......</b>
body:
If I were in charge, I would DEFINITELY have a huge lesbian orgy. What story is complete without one?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-11-12 21:42:24
subject: <b>This was a joke?</b>
body:
I thought you were dead on!<br />But you left out the Black Flexible Whip ter'angreal. You know the one Nyneave thinks feels like sweet, sweet pain!<br /><br />On a serious note, pillow friends is a lesbian reference, yes. <br /><br />WWW.teennovicepillowfriendssorotityterangrealorgycam.com will be up and running any day now!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 06:22:21
subject: <b>This wasn't as hilarious as some of these lesbian obsessed posters claim...</b>
body:
It could have been a lot dirtier.  I expected something more graphic and explicit.  <br /><br />Like a photograph.<br /><br />Or a video.<br /><br /><br /><br />Oh wait, I have the internet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Muahahah!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> I like these smilies!!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Longwinded, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Perverted, yep, that's me... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-12 15:38:48
subject: <b>How in the light?</b>
body:
How in the light is this theory still in a serious section?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 20:40:52
subject: <b>Why wasn't this posted in the humor section?</b>
body:
I thought theories like this were the whole point of the humorous theories category.  It makes no sense to post it here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Scully Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the White Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Uncertainty has only strengthened my need to know, to understand, to apply reason to those things that defy it. - Dana Scully</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-08 20:09:22
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
As a female, I'm insulted at the lezzy-sex craving. Die. As a human being, I'm laughing.<br /><br /><br /><br />BTW, I think it's more than just coincicidence that Elayne is of the Green Ajah (known for Warder-lovin') and she's got a female Warder. And she's sister-bonded with Aviendha.<br /><br />And sooner or later we all know that Rand's not going to be satisfied with one at a time...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 01:57:41
subject: <b>This does not belong here</b>
body:
This &quot;theory&quot; belongs with the other theories of a humorous nature.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-04 01:59:15
subject: <b>Yay for lesbians!</b>
body:
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous theory i've ever read, but .... LESBIANS, people! *Dances*


created: 2003-12-09 21:51:21
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
Wow. That's all I can say.<br /><br />I mean, I love lesbians.<br />They're amazing.<br /><br />But that is easily the most ridiculous, utterly ludicrous, thing ever.  And also the most HILARIOUS theory I've ever read on this site.<br /><br />Hats off, man.<br /><br />


created: 2004-02-18 12:31:24
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
I was thinking about the huge lesbian orgy at TG leading to a new breaking and had an idea.  If our world is supposed to be one of the past and/or future permutations of the WoT, perhaps the phrase &quot;Did the earth move for you?&quot; used in a sexual context originated with the lesbian orgy!!  Think about it... that phrase doesn't easily spring to mind after sex.  Maybe it started soon after when people wanted to know if there partner's just had a sexual experience as powerful as the lesbian orgy that ACTUALLY caused the earth to move!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 20:09:14
subject: <b>perverted!</b>
body:
I no this was a spoof, but you guys are perverted!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-21 14:06:03
subject: <b>You make me sick!</b>
body:
This is thw single, most disgusting, biased and offensive theory I've seen.<br /><br />I can't believe the admin's are talking of keeping this page open to 12-13 yearolds and still post a theory like this. It should have been Balefired before it ever got sent.<br /><br />Yuck!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-24 21:21:16
subject: <b>Hilarious</b>
body:
I consider myself to be fairly open-minded. Now that that's out of the way, I don't feel there's reason to take offense to this theory. It's a joke people. Get over yourselves. Lord Savaunt here has already claimed he has nothing against homosexuals of either gender, and it seems to me that one could easily assume that no offense was intended.<br /><br />That being said, I thought it was hilarious. So did my transexual lesbian roomate. It brought a light to my long night of reading repetitive and boring theory posts. Congratulations, sir, on creating something so unique, and for sparking such discussion and controversy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shyne<br /><br />Would-be Wolfbrother<br />The Once and Future Gaidin</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 07:02:26
subject: <b>buddy sauvant you have lost it!!</b>
body:
Hello,<br />what ever made you suggest such a theory, man,get CDs or DVDs of some nice biological procreations stuff(you know what I mean) and cool your heat dude.<br />This is possibly the most ludicrous and senseless thing I have seen on this site yet. I have read a couple of your other postings and they seem to be allright.  <br /><br />cheerio, dude do reply...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signing off in light, <br />Ajit.<br /><br />&quot;If reasons were as plenty as blueberries, I would give none on compulsion&quot;. <br />-Shakespeare.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 15:05:09
subject: <b>heh heh..</b>
body:
hats off to sauvent! <br /><br />that was singularily one of the many funny things on this site!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-22 22:39:57
subject: <b>...Blink...</b>
body:
Ahhh... Right! Well...<br /><br />Y'know, I've always had these thoughts, (a, Rahvin is bi, (b, so is Rand, (c, our President is like an ancient Greek priest (they sacrificed animals to interpret the will of the Gods. Republicans still continue the practice, but do it with natural resources), and (d, I really didn't find it funny. O'course, I don't have a sense of humour...<br /><br />Lews Therin: Shut up already! And kill someone as well!<br /><br />...But what you really need is alpha mentality...<br /><br />...Ooh, and another thing! Who wants to help me threaten RJ to make some gay males in the series? Please?


created: 2005-06-04 07:47:01
subject: <b>Hehe</b>
body:
THAT WAS FREAKIN' HILARIOUS!!! I give you 100 points on humor, although I thinj your theory is impossible, it's also one of the funniest things I've read on this site. That was GREAT! lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Snow <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-09 16:31:04
subject: <b>*chokes*</b>
body:
Damn apple cores. *coughs* Heheh. Humor is the single greatest invention of humanity. After fire and the internet. I know I'm on very dangerous ground right here, but I sure would like Faile to die, and not because I think she's annoying. Fwahaha! (P.S., if you don't understand what I'm talking about, even after I post on the comments of this particular subject, you obviously have low IQ. Or you are an innocent.)


created: 2005-08-19 02:20:23
subject: <b>Cue the bad 70's porno music</b>
body:
boom chicka boom chickachickachicka<br /><br />Funny stuff.  But it leads me to think that either you have a massive collection of porno, HUGEW forearms, or drink bong water regularly, or maybe all three.<br /><br />And to those of you who are getting all whiny about it, as my hero Archie Bunker would say....<br /><br />&quot;PLLLLLLBBBBBBBBTTTTTTTTTT&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-08-30 21:49:51
subject: <b>That...was...</b>
body:
AWESOME!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 11:48:25
subject: <b>Oh, and btw,</b>
body:
I just wanted to say that RJ has confirmed in his blog that pillow friends are what you'd call &quot;friends with benefits&quot; in reference to two women... lesbian or bi $&amp;#* buddies...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 11:55:36
subject: <b>Here's RJ's blog...</b>
body:
on the subject...<br /><br />And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends.  Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce.  By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower.  The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.<br /><br />Nuff said...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 14:46:40
subject: <b>Morianes motives</b>
body:
Don't get me wrong i don't think Moiraine is evil/bad, but mioraines motive's were not for Nynaeve's and elayne's safety- that was Rand's motive for sending Juilian.  Her motive was to get Thom away from Rand so that she could have greater control of Rand as she thought Thom had too much influence with Rand.<br />Another point is that moiraine told egwene and nynaeve (i think)that she knew the man she would marry mcuh more than they could guess their own, this would suggest she had some kinda prior knowledge- possibly from Min, and Min told us that only one of her predictions never came true and I think that her prediction involved Moiraine and Thom, not Moiraine's blue stone and Thom but Moiraine and Thom's relationship together.<br />Also, one incident is not conclusive evidence that she was homosexual, she was a novice and had little or no opportunity to have a sexual relationship with men, she didn't have a warder and she doesn't relate to strangers well so she didn't have a man around- she may be highly sexed not homosexual and with no men in the picture she turned to her best friend for a little sexual gratification. (okay so this is only a theory- but plausible) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-30 11:48:20
subject: <b>Moiraine, Thom, the letter, etc.</b>
body:
As for Moiraine being Thom's type, there is a thought he has at Tear that she is exactly his type. Beautiful, a good head on her shoulders... but then he shakes it off by reminding himself that she's Aes Sedai, and that's a showstopper for him.<br /><br />Moiraine does use a harsh method for convincing Thom to go to Tanchico. He wants to stay with Rand because of his personal guilt, and a belief that he can find some absolution if he can save Rand from the end Owyn faced. Moiraine throws that very fact in his face, along with knowledge of his connection to Elayne, then GUARANTEES him he will survive Tanchico. I am not so sure that she is getting Thom out of the way so she can better guide Rand, I tend to believe that his being there in Tanchico is important to events for Elayne and Nynaeve. This absolutely has to be an answer from the snakes. And she tells him she will teach him that not all Aes Sedai are like those who mistreated his nephew. Not a concern if she's the cold-hearted wench many project her as. She also tells him she WILL see him again. (Which means she comes back from the foxes)<br /><br />When Mat asks Thom in Salidar who the letter (Moiraine's) was from, Thom guiltily says it was someone he left to her fate. Later, as they are preparing to leave for Ebou Dar, Mat asks him again about that letter, and he says something to the effect that sometimes you can't tell until it's too late if a woman is friend, enemy, or lover, and in this case, perhaps all three.<br /><br />There is absolutely a connection between the two. Every major good guy character gets a love interest in this series, and these two are the only ones without. Even Siuan has Gareth Bryne, and Morgase has Tallanvor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 14:43:29
subject: <b>Lord Savaunt needs to read the series again.</b>
body:
1.  Moiraine regrets having to use Owyn's death to prod Thom into going, wishing he had just done it for Elayne.  She goes on to say that not all Aes Sedai are like the ones who stilled his nephew.  (She cares for Thom and would like her regard returned.)<br />2.  Moiraine was wearing her stone on the docks before she went through the doorway with Lanfear.  (I don't remember it falling off.  The only reference I can remember for Egwene's stone was that it was green and she had found it in a riverbed.  She mentioned learning with Moiraine's stone, but nothing more.)<br />3.  When Rand finds Thom , Thom regrets that Moiraine is not with him.  He refers to her as a fine looking woman.  Also, upon receiving her letter, he sorrowfully tells Mat he left the sender.  (Moiraine is someone special to Thom, even if he tells himself she shouldn't be.)<br />4.  Nynaeve tells the girls Moiraine showed passion when refering to her future husband.  (Moiraine does care about things other than her causes.  She just puts the causes first.)<br />5.  Moiraine tells Thom that they will meet again.  (This must be a part of her answers from the first doorway ter'angreal.  I didn't really see her as one to use one of her three questions in this fashion but evidently she did.  Based on Min's vision, Thom will meet her in the world of the aelfinn and eelfinn and bring her out.)


created: 2001-05-31 18:50:11
subject: <b>Moiraine and Siuan</b>
body:
Will somebody please remind me of this so-called encounter that makes them homosexuals?  I don't ever remember reading it!  Maybe I just have a bad memory, though XX(<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 12:58:55
subject: <b>Moiraine and Siuan</b>
body:
Apparently, in New Spring, there is a chapter that discusses a pillowfriend relationship between Siuan and Moiraine. Not having read New Spring, I was likewise confused to folks making such a reference about them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-04 15:40:00
subject: <b>Moiraine and Suian and other things</b>
body:
Alright, I have read New Spring and I cant remember exactly, but if there was a twist like that in it, it would not be something I forgot easily. I do not think Moiraine is a homosexual, just a typical young gal talking with a friend. And since they are in the Tower what else do you expect. Also, I get tired of hearing everyone say &quot;Min's viewing&quot; when talking about Thom pulling out the stone. It is Egwene's dream that talks about that. GET IT RIGHT!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 02:45:46
subject: <b>Flinn calm yerself</b>
body:
With all the viewing and dreams that Perrin, Min, and Egwene have had (not to mention the various foretellings from Aes Sedai with that ability) it's hard to keep track of who saw what.<br /><br />   By the way the thing in New Spring did make mention of Moiraine beeing furious at the humiliating interogation by Cadsuane and her thoughts that how close she had been to Siuan was their own affair and no one else. That was also part of Moiraines anger about someon commenting on her getting a warder and being careful about picking a man for her bed (or words to those effects). So there was a lot of insinuation that Moiraine and Siuan had been physical in their youth. <br /><br />  Of course as a lot of people have mentioned with the high number of women and low number of available men in the tower, and young girls just starting to deal with hormones and such, that the two were probably were probably experimenting as young people sometimes do.<br /><br />   Anyway since this dead horse has been flogged into hamburger on two different theory black boards I'd like to see if we could move on and perhaps discuss the likely hood of sy Thom being meant to save Egwene or Moiraine and which is more likely and such.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 17:34:48
subject: <b>Something was forgoten...</b>
body:
Ok,I have absolute proof that Moirane is not homosexual. While in the Stone of Tear in The Shadow Rising, the women talk about men and love. Then Moirane comes into the room and it eventually leads to something like &quot;have you ever loved anyone Moirane?&quot;. Well she answers that she knows as well as them who her husband is going to be. Meaning: a)she doesn't know who her husband is , or b)she does. Andif she does the keyword hre is &quot;husband&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wisdom, Knowledge... Chaos (in a calculated way)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 07:58:04
subject: <b>as for Owyn ...</b>
body:
Just to clear up a little confusion... YES it does say that Owyn was NOT taken to the Tower.   <br /><br />In TSR chapter 17 'Deceptions' ... while Moiraine is convincing him to go to Tanchico she says outright...<br /><br />&quot;And your reason for leaving Andor? A nephew named Owyn, I believe. One of those poor fools you spoke of who can channel. The Red sisters were supposed to bring him to Tar Valon, as any such man is, but instead they gentled him on the spot and abandoned him to the...mercies of his neighbors.&quot;<br /><br />(please make note of the 4th sentence)<br />And for the records i sincerely do hope Elaida was among the ones who knew about this!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-12 17:40:21
subject: <b>Let's just say....</b>
body:
... That Moiraine Damodred and Siuan Sanche are a pair of women that currently are currently shown as being heterosexual. They were at some time in their younger days a bit experimental, and may or may not have any remaining interest in their own gender as romantic pursuits. <br /><br />   Afterall this is something that will probably remain unimportant to the general plot unless they should rekindle their passions of bi-gone youth. Considering that Siuan is besotted with Gareth Bryne, and that there is evidence that Moiraine might have some kind of feelings for Thom Merrilin that would seem unlikely.<br /><br />   By the way could anyone give me their thoughts on my idea about Moiraine being bound to the Horn of Valere? Perhpas my theory about Egwenes dream indicating her self being the one that Thom will end up savind in a way that could be a metaphor towards juggling fire. This would be either along with/or instead of Moiraine. I think It'd bee cool to see Moiraine come back as a ghost. That would give the audience their much needed fix of the OAS (Original Aes Sedai) with out invalidating a touching death scene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 23:36:21
subject: <b>Eliada involved with Owyn</b>
body:
Sorry to say it, but there is little chance of Elaida having been involved with the gentling of Owyn.<br /><br />Elaida latched onto House Trakand as soon as she saw she would be an important part of the Last Battle.<br /><br />Owyn was stilled while Thom was &quot;entertaining&quot; Morgase, meaning Eliada was in Caemlyn. She was more interested in hte line of Andor &amp; its power than her natural Red instincts. It is doubtful that she would have been asked to go &amp; still him by the Tower. They would have sent their own team.<br /><br />They may have called in for some spiced wine there or on the way back &amp; told her about it though.<br /><br />Sorry those who wanted her to be guilty of it.<br /><br />Greyslayer<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Player of Games <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of Aquatic Mammals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-22 13:35:18
subject: <b>Moiraine's sexuality</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but hasn't anyone heard of bisexual's? Ya know, people who like men and women? I don't know that Moiraine even truly likes women or whether she a) had a one time thing with Siuan or b) that whole passage is completely misunderstood. Regardless, let's say she did have a sexual relationship with Siuan. How does this immediately make her a homosexual? Why can't she be bisexual? And don't say that if she likes men and women she'd go with men because it's the &quot;correct thing&quot; in everyone's eyes...I have a bisexual friend, and she sometimes has a boyfriend and sometimes a girlfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 18:23:48
subject: <b>Moiraine's sexuality</b>
body:
If I recall correctly, when Moiraine was thinking of all the women Lan had bedded there were some not so suttle hints of her jealousy. True, she could have been wishing she was Lan in those situations, but I believe she was jealous that the women were able to have Lan but she never would. Also it mentioned in the books that Moiraine and Siuan were best friends, not lovers as novices.<br /><br />I do agree with most of the other parts of your theory, just not that Moiraine is a lesbo.


created: 2001-08-13 09:22:40
subject: <b>Re: Stregom's post...</b>
body:
Reread that chapter (TGH, Watchers, pg 320 in pocket). RJ writes that<br /><br />a) Moiraine has never felt jealous about Lan's affairs with women - in fact she seems to find the notion of being jealous over a man slightly absurd. (A strong argument for Moiraine preferring women btw - either that or she's VERY open-minded.)<br /><br />b) She's only jealous about Nynaeve because she knows just how deeply Lan cares for her - Warder bond, remember? (It's quite possible that she knows Lan's mind better than he himself does at this point...) Moiraine is certain that she'll eventually lose Lan as a Warder and perhaps even as a friend, because of his feelings for Nynaeve. Ample reason to be jealous IMO...


created: 2001-08-24 18:38:26
subject: <b>Moiraine, Suian and Pillowfriends.</b>
body:
Pillowfriends has, in most cases, meant a -very- close relationship between the persons involved. But it is entirely possible that it doesnt ALWAYS mean a homosexual relationship.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />~~Kaidrin Faeraih Sedai~~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />~~Blue Ajah~~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 14:05:16
subject: <b>on the Bound to the Wheel issue...</b>
body:
does anyone remember ANY channellers that where called by the horn at Falme? I certainly don't... It stands to reason that there would have been. And i would appreciate it if people would not note that Birgitte set fire to the Seanchan ship once again... that can be explained any number of ways, from flaming arrows to her aiming for an oil lamp on deck...<br /><br />that being said, if there were no channellers at Falme, then perhaps there are no channellers bound to the wheel and therefore Moraine could not be...<br /><br />any takers?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 15:31:53
subject: <b>Bound To The Horn</b>
body:
Errantrouge mentioned that there are no channelers bound to the Horn. But wouldnt you say that Lews Therin can channel, but just because it doesnt mention them doesnt mean they're not there. There are about one hundred Heroes bound to the Horn, if im not mistakin, and it only gave some of they're names. Well thats my 2 cents<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Truth Vengence Honor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 18:36:00
subject: <b>Wot Lesbies</b>
body:
In NS, Moiraine and Suian are described as &quot;pillowfriends&quot;.  This term is used in one of the books (PoD I think) about a Cairheinin noblewoman and a wave misstress.  The wavemistress is afraid her husband will find out because the Sea Folk are very strict about adultery.  Besides, what do you think all that spearsister/near sister stuff is.  Elayne wants to take things slow, so they just sleep in the same bed and brush each others hair...  Come on, it's the classic &quot;girl sleepover&quot; fantasy. :o  RJ is a guy.  I'm sorry if this shocks all you homophobic Bible thumpers o<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> out there, but relax...One pillowfriend does not a lesbian make. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aviendah's toy boy<br /><br />Kaylee's doctor<br /><br />Tara trapped in a man's body...yes I avoid windows<br /><br />I'm a realist...it sounds like pessimism because the world sucks!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-15 16:30:18
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Yes, they were pillow friends, and yes, pillow friends means lapping each other down. Why is this so hard to grasp?<br />No, it doesn't mean she's a lesbian. It was just an affair as Novices/Accepted.<br /><br />And yes, Lews Therin was a  channeller. What the he11 does that have to do with being bound to the Horn? Last time I checked, Lews Therin ISN&quot;T bound to the Horn. He's hanging out in Rand's head!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 22:05:22
subject: <b>I think that she's alive.</b>
body:
Cyndane is Lanfear, though whether or not she died is still up in the air I believe. I think Moiraine would make an awesome Hero, but in every mention of the Heroes of the Horn the Hero is a non-channeller. Lews Therin is the Dragon, and thus is something special I believe. I think Thom will rescue Moiraine, and Gawyn will rescue Egwene. Thom is all the way down in Ebou Dar, but Gawyn is in perfect position near Tar'Valon to save his lady love. <br />I remember Thom remarking in several places that Moiraine is a really fine woman or something to that effect. She does say something about her knowing the face of her husband, and she does seem to like him. And she and Thom are the only good guys still up in the air, and RJ in this at least likes to have the lose ends tied up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-17 20:49:09
subject: <b>moiraine a hero? no ...</b>
body:
Although I look forward to the moment when Moiraine returns, I have to suspect that return will be in the flesh.  Any sort of TAR/ghost/Obi-wan lingering would probably be too awkward to pull off, if for no other reason.<br /><br />As for her being called by the Horn, I admit it would be pretty cool, but it seems to me the Horn doesn't quite work that way.  Maybe there are other theory posts discussing this, but the Horn of Valere is associated with Jordan's theme of history and storytelling (memory fades into legend, legend fades into myth, etc.).  Heroes become bound to the Horn if they perform deeds far beyond the ken of ordinary life and are remembered by people everywhere.  No matter what the big players in the world might think of her, Moiraine simply hasn't astounded the general populace with her feats of derring-do.<br /><br />I'd also suggest this is why there aren't any channelers bound to the Wheel:  their ways are so mysterious to ordinary folk that it would be difficult for one to capture the population's imagination in the manner of, say, Hawkwing or Birgitte &amp; Gaidal Cain.  I mean, would your run-of-the-mill peasant/shopkeeper/mercenary rather hear about Aes Sedai blowing up Trollocs, or about a poor boy who makes it big with his wits and his skill?  Not to suggest a causal relationship, but rather that only certain types of people get bound to the Wheel.<br /><br />The obvious exception is the Dragon/Kinslayer.  Everyone knows his story, and he does get born again every couple thousand years, just like Birgitte, Artur, &amp; co.  So he makes at least one channeler who is tied to the Wheel.


created: 2008-07-11 04:27:38
subject: <b>Lanfears loss of power theory</b>
body:
Well you all know that Lanfear loses some of her power when she and Moiraine enter the land of the Aelfinn? or is it Eelfinn? well anyway, do you think that it would be possible that this power was transfered to Moiranine to make them equals in the power? because if not where did that power go?


created: 2001-05-23 07:09:06
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
If the Horn of Valere really makes the heroes be reborn then how would you explain the battle at Falme, when all the heroes appeard but not in th flesh.


created: 2001-06-10 07:01:47
subject: <b>More thoughts</b>
body:
Maybe the shadow will get hold of the horn and blow it. The wheel could be spinning them out now, so that when the bad guys blow the horn there is no-one to come out.


created: 2001-07-15 07:43:32
subject: <b>plan b</b>
body:
Now, in every action-film I've seen the good guys have had a plan b, and have had to use it. I think there will be a lot of fighting a TG, and this will probably end with a lot of people getting killed. Now, if the heroes should be spun out, except of course Birgitte and Rand himself, and they should die, what better way of not loosing them completely, than blowing the horn a few hours/days later?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 05:31:12
subject: <b>birgitte</b>
body:
so. now that birgitte had been &quot;ripped away&quot; will she feel the call of the horn when/if it is blown again? just something that's been bothering me . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 21:12:58
subject: <b>Hero Born</b>
body:
Well, of course the heros have been spun out. And because the magic of the horn, they are already 5-6 years old and aging rapidly. That explains how Gaidal Cain is Olver. He just felt compelled to seek out Brigette, which is why he is the obly hero we have yet to see in child form. The next book, the rest will start turning up. Watch for Hawkwing to show up as a kid somewhere in Seanchan dominated territory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 02:54:06
subject: <b>They way the heroes can be reborn and summoned</b>
body:
Now this is going to be a bad theroy, but the heros could be reborn, they could play a major rule in the coming battle too. How you ask well that simple, The Wheel spins them out for whatever reason it needs, so if it need let say Cain to be there to handle a situation the way it needs to be handle, even as a child, then it will spin him out, but there nothing to say he couldn't die right after he does what the wheel needs. Maybe that what bounds the Heroes to the Horn is the fact that they have made the sacrfice, of there lives for the patteren. Maybe the heroes that are reborn will be teens when the last battle happens, and they will die in the process in order to be there at the end.


created: 2001-05-31 00:27:19
subject: <b>Many Worlds</b>
body:
Hate to refute your response, but remember how the Portal Stones work:  they help their users move back and forth<br />between OTHER realities.  This is Jordan's plug from the many-worlds hypothesis of quantum mechanics--that every<br />possible world that COULD exist DOES exist.  However, the World of the Wheel (burn anyone who uses the term<br />Randland) is different in that each world is weighted according to its probability of actually happening--recall that<br />the world Rand, Loial, and Selene visited was fuzzy in a way because it had a low probability of actually happening.<br /><br />So it's not that the worlds don't exist, just that they aren't the one our friends live in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 20:46:13
subject: <b>Portal Stones</b>
body:
the world of WoT is almost entirely based on the belief that reality is a Weaving of lifes together, which forms a Pattern. If a person's actions are important or drastic enough, they can alter the entire Pattern. Balefire works on the principle that you can burn someone, or something's weave back in time. the length of time depends on how powerful the weave of balefire is.<br /><br />Now, with the Portal Stones, i believe they showed Rand and those with him what would have happened if one weave had been different. If Rand hadnt left with Moiraine and Lan, If any simple choice he had made had been different, his entire life would change. And everything he did in those lifes was wrong. Only in his ( and the others as well ) current life's, and current Weave's will the Pattern work. <br /><br />And there will never be a true Last Battle. That...philospher dude  ( i forget his name. the gholam ripped him apart though. havent read any WoT in a while ) theorized that at different stages in the Wheel, the Dark One's prison was opened, sealed, re-opened, then sealed again and so-on. So, although its only a theory and we'll prolly never see it, there would be another Dragon Reborn, and Rand could only be known as THE Dragon, and the voice of the new Dragon Reborn's head a combination of the two. But if you follow that theory, than Lews Therin is a combination of countless Dragon's before him. regardless, the Wheel will continue to turn, and the eternal struggle against the Light and the Dark will continue.


created: 2001-06-19 22:01:50
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
How do I vote for this one? First you say your theory is correct, then you prove it wrong... i don't know whether to agree or disagree with you   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-11 08:57:55
subject: <b>didnt you already post this a month ago?</b>
body:
yeah, uh, you disproved it then and a month later you threw it back up there, gotta love that persistance.<br /><br />marcus<br /><br />the reddest hand in all the land


created: 2004-04-23 18:19:22
subject: <b>Other Rands? Don't you read?</b>
body:
First of all, it's Tarmon GaidON not GaidIN. Gaidin are warders. Second of all, all those &quot;past Rands&quot; were not defeated at Tarmon Gaidon, else there would be no present age as we know it. Instead, those past Rands were always killed as a result of the battle, after it was won. Thirdly, and this is my main point, your theory of other Rands, though misguided, is possible, but not the way you've expressed it.  In each turning of the wheel, as far as i've understood, there has only been 1 very powerful ta'veren at a time (someone correct me if i'm wrong), the dragon reborn. This time, there are 3 ta'veren: Rand, Mat, and Perrin. The two latter both exhibit, not only differnt aspects of Lews Therin, but also, each has a power or ability that is completely independent of the One Power. Perrin can lead men, and wolves. Mat can lead men, and with his amulet, is immune to the channeling of saidin AND saidar. I believe that this &quot;division of power&quot; if you will, is what will give this particular Lord Dragon the edge that the past Dragons did not have.


created: 2001-05-22 15:04:15
subject: <b>There is some possibility that person is Birgitte</b>
body:
Birgitte is someone who is dead and gone.  The pattern has used her soul before to save Rand/LTTs soul.  Maybe it will do it again<br /><br />I am afraid there are too many possibilities.  We will just have to read and find out.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 18:01:35
subject: <b>Certainly not Cyndane</b>
body:
I can't imagine Cyndane siding with Rand after the humiliation he put her through.  At the end of WH, you get a fair indication from Cyndane herself just how much she dispises Rand now.  I happen to think it will be Moiraine personally.


created: 2001-05-23 02:23:47
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
Shortly before Min thinks of Rand failing &quot;without a woman who's dead and gone&quot;, she thinks of Moiraine and her &quot;only vision ever to fail&quot;.  How can anyone believe these don't combine to say &quot;Moiraine is coming back&quot;?


created: 2001-05-23 08:50:28
subject: <b>I hope...</b>
body:
I think it's Moirane (Cyndane is VERY much upset about Rand), but then, the guy has a point...! Lanfear would NEVER accept to be second to ANYBODY. Maybe she'll not turn to the light, but turn AGAINS'T Morridin. After all, the DO changes his opinions often... Who knows...?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-23 11:57:17
subject: <b>No Chance</b>
body:
Min does not tell Rand that he's going to fail without a woman who's dead and gone.  She thinks it.  It's a POV.  And as has already been pointed out, she was thinking about Moiraine at the time.  There is NO WAY this could possibly apply to Lanfear.  End of story  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 19:12:25
subject: <b>I would support this theory</b>
body:
Because when lanfear is decribed it states that she did not perform any horrific acts over the provinces she ruled in the war of the shadow. I think it also says something about Rand getting the something of the moons to serve him, but i am not sure, anyway thats what i think<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-17 12:39:21
subject: <b>Definitely Moiraine</b>
body:
Now really, that Lanfear theory did sound terribly wistful to me. Somebody missing an idol? I agree with Hyam Kinch, its definitely Moiraine whom Rand needs, which is why RJ left it open with all those &quot;apparently&quot; dead. Although its interesting about the Warder bond being transferred as she fell through--I mean, it remained intact when she skipped through the one in Tear...<br /> Anyway, the point is, Min VIEWED Rand needing Moiraine, it wasn't a PoV. She states it was a viewing that appparently failed, I can't think of any other vision that might've done the same. Why would she go from thinking about Moiraine to pondering some other viewing? Its obviously one and the same. <br /> To make a point, Cyndane CANNOT turn against Moridin--her cour'souvra is dangling off his neck! Any resistance and she will be crushed, doubtful the DO gives second chances. However much she hates, well, everyone, she has to do their bidding for now. <br /> And as for it being true because of the Nine Moons 'serving' Rand...c'mon! That's already stated as being a Seanchan reference.<br /> But will it be Thom who rescues Moiraine?...<br /><br />~Seidazar~<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Seidazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Witch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Devoted Mat Follower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <i>It's been lovely but I have to scream now</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 01:01:44
subject: <b>I happen to agree, but.......</b>
body:
What about Cadsuane? A lot of Aes Sedai were shocked when they realized she was alive. And Min has stated that Cadsuane was going to help Rand. So....<br /><br />But I do agree that Moiraine is coming back. RJ, saddly, doesn't kill off any of the good guys. That's the major problem I have with him.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> If you assume that only Asmodean, Be'lal, Rahvin, and Sammael (who's questionable, obviously) are dead (that's not to touch Aginor, Lanfear, or Moghedian) then that's four big deaths for the bad guys. Who, of Rand's important allies, are dead?<br />That would be no one. Except maybe for Moiraine.


created: 2001-09-15 16:41:42
subject: <b>m-m-mm...</b>
body:
In a Crown of Swords, Moiraine is not LONG dead...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:20:10
subject: <b>WTF</b>
body:
It doesn't say anything about being LONG dead, just dead. And If RJ dont bring Moiraine back i may do bad things to him............<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 22:46:21
subject: <b>Eagle of Krondor (about 5 posts up)</b>
body:
It says that rand will bind the nine moons to serve him.  Thinking that this means anything but the Seanchan is pure idiocy (no offense).  It's pretty obvious when you think about the facts that a Seanchan noble is named &quot;The Daughter of the Nine Moons,&quot; and that the Seanchan court is know as &quot;The Court of the Nine Moons.&quot;  Just thought that I should inform ya.  <br /><br />Until my next post, I remain:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 16:06:03
subject: <b>Why Not Lanfear?</b>
body:
Ok, work with me on this one.  I think we can all agree that RJ is definately Tolkienesque in nature, of course with so much more in the way of detail.  So why could the &quot;woman who is long dead&quot; not be Lanfear?  Did not Gollum &quot;help&quot; Frodo?  Just because she has her own agenda and sinister goals, do not discount her so easily.  Furthermore, with Rand's growing ability to use people, it is entirely possible that he will use her plans when they suit him and discard them when the time is right.


created: 2002-11-21 21:07:43
subject: <b>Ummm....</b>
body:
I doubt Lanfear would do that unless she had something to gain. Definately not for love of Rand/Lews Therin, cause at the end of WH, she seemed fairly pissed off at him. And theres the factor that she never really loved LTT, only like the idea of the power he represented. Hrmph.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-01-07 17:38:34
subject: <b>Lanfear or Moiraine?</b>
body:
Its very unlikely that Lanfear would ever turn to Light, but still possible. However, I'd rather have Moiraine back.


created: 2001-05-22 14:46:04
subject: <b>Forsaken</b>
body:
I noticed while I was reading the part about the slayer in WH, that there are Chosen who don't channel.  It says something about few of the chosen know where he lives, and none of the males who can channel.  Why would he think about specifically males who can channel, if all the chosen can channel.


created: 2001-05-22 15:57:36
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
Sammael is definitely dead to balefire. Rand wouldn't be satisfied with just a high probability, and he is quite certain that when he moved the balefire stream from his mercy-killing of Liah, Sammael had no chance to get clear.<br /><br />If Taim had Slayer at his disposal, he would have sent him to try any number of times before Far Madding. Besides, Taim is not of the Forsaken, and Slayer is certain that his &quot;Patron of the moment&quot; is a Chosen.<br /><br />Moridin has been given all that the DO can give him up to this point, including control of Moghedien and Lanfear/Cyndane, as well as the title of Nae'blis, at least temporarily. Why not access to Slayer?<br /><br />Magebeast posted the suggestion that not all male Chosen can channel, based on Slayer's thoughts at the end of Out of Thin Air. But the exact passage reads; &quot;Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him.&quot; This could be rewritten to say that OTHER THAN the Chosen, only a few knew how to reach him, and among the men of those few, none could channel. It doesn't say that there are male Forsaken who cannot channel, but that non-Forsaken males who can find him can't channel, and wouldn't dare attempt to order him around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-23 09:18:10
subject: <b>Quick comment</b>
body:
Quick question to Raserei, how could Sammael chat when he is dead according to himself? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Sammael is dead, he said so himself in a chat discussion. &quot;Sammael is toast.&quot; Verbatim. &quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Alcair ashan</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>Lurker extraordinary</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 15:27:15
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
I was wondering...does Taim have to be a Darkfriend? I mean, he probably is, but perhaps he is just jealous of Rand, and thinks that if he (Rand) is dead then Taim could become the Dragon Reborn. Maybe he just wants power.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-15 15:09:45
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
did not Mr Jordan say that Sammael was gone inn a intervju??<br />think to remember that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-18 07:16:27
subject: <b>weather notes</b>
body:
i very nifty bit of evidence that i think is being left out here is the weather of the area, shown through the gateway after Slayer's Master leaves.   <br />the heavy snow points to something around Caemlyn in my opinion, which would be another point for someone who is  not Sammael. <br /><br />blarg<br />


created: 2001-07-15 07:48:16
subject: <b>sammael or demandred?</b>
body:
where did you get that from?<br />Have I missed something important again?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <br />Isn't Ishamael/Moridin an option... thinking as I am that he must have had a hand in making slayer in the firsk place, I can't really buy your theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 10:52:20
subject: <b>Sammael dead</b>
body:
I read that interview where Jordan says Sammael is toast. If he had said RAFO- it would kinda give the game away.<br /><br />I reckon he's lying his beard off!<br /><br />Taim is Sammael- try reading all the relevant sections with that supposition and the whole book makes alot more sense.<br /><br />P&gt;S&gt; I'll be relly pissed off if I'm wrong.


created: 2004-04-20 09:00:22
subject: <b>Few Problems</b>
body:
1st: Isam said that he doesn't work for any one person (except the dark one)<br />2nd Sammael wouldn't have run if he were still alive. He would have taken the chance and tried to kill Rand.<br />Thats all i have for now.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I suspected it might come to you and me. You are young. Let us see what is required to earn the heron on this side of the ocean.<br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...           -Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 01:26:26
subject: <b>Sammael could be alive...</b>
body:
But i'll offer ten to 1 odds on it.  The True Power thing is possible, but highly unlikely.  The ter'angreal thing wouldn't work at all: he would need to channel, which Rand said he didn't, and if he tried to invert the weaves, the extra effort and time needed would have allowed mashadar to reach him.  Oh, and anyone who says Rand Balefired Sammael is wrong: mashadar got him (supposedly: he was gone when Rand looked).  I think it says somewhere that mashadar eats the soul like machim Shin does, which would explain why he hasn't been brought backdespite dying by a means other than Balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-06 16:50:39
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I don't know about you but i am positive that Sammael died. I think i remember it saying that Rand felt saidan being channeled, enough to weave a gateway, then cut off suddenly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 16:06:27
subject: <b>Setalle and Ter'angreal</b>
body:
This is by far the most logically and thoroughly argued theory on the site.<br /><br />Maybe Setalle found a ter'angreal that removes the ability to channel?  <br /><br />I wonder if she was altered in appearance like Siuan and Leane, and that's why she's not recognizable.  She needs an Asha'man to heal her so she can resume her spot amongst her sisters.  Maybe she's got ter'angreal secrets to share?


created: 2001-05-31 18:50:41
subject: <b>Another path...</b>
body:
Well, if the Forsaken can hide their ability to channel, why not Setalle Anan? Maybe she just got tired of being an Aes Sedai. Hey, she could have just discovered an old Talent or what not.<br /><br />-Rawin


created: 2001-05-31 18:54:22
subject: <b>Just a question...</b>
body:
Sorry to bother you in this late hour...<br />I would like to be reminded of what the importance of the One who is No Longer is, and who it is that uses that phrase.  It is nice to start figureing out who Setalle reallly is.  Maybe as an ex AS she also sees the importance of Mat to the cause of good and that's why she likes him so much...   most of the other women in Ebou Dar either got the munchies for Mat or were annoyed by him or asked him riddles or...   oh forget it, just answer my Q at the top of this paragraph. thank you<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 19:04:03
subject: <b>1 problem</b>
body:
I agree that Setalee Anan is the one who is no longer but I don't think that if she was aes sedai she was burnt out in the normal way.  The damane crumple in pain when they attempt to move with out being linked to a sul'dame.  People who have been stilled can still feel what a damane is thinking, so it is fairly safe to say that the damane can move with them.


created: 2001-05-31 23:14:43
subject: <b>RE: 1 problem</b>
body:
Actually, RJ has spoken of a clear distinction between a woman stilled, and one burned out. A stilled woman can still sense the Source, and could wear the sul'dam side of an a'dam without causing pain to the damane. A woman burnt out can no longer even sense saidar. It seems that all of the evidence suggest that Setalle Anan is just such. <br /><br />It was always a cinch that she'd been in the Tower in some capacity, but to suddenly see her as a burnt out AS is quite interesting. Now, I wonder why she chose Ebou Dar, since it isn't her native land? Perhaps precisely because of the Kin? And if she is the burnt out Martine Janata, she might well hold some piece of knowledge that will allow Elayne to perfect the creation of ter'angreal. At least she's with Mat now, and hopefully leaving Ebou Dar soon. I'm full up with that town.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 11:49:08
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
And remember that Burned out or Stilled Aes Sedai try to get soemthing to replace the gap, usually children and a profession. Great Theory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mutch<br />&quot;Do onto others before they do onto you&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 13:09:38
subject: <b>Some comments</b>
body:
I agree wholeheartedly with the main post.  It was well thought out.  I only have a few comments about one of the blackboard post.  <br /><br />There is no evidence that stilling is any different than being burnt out.  Siuan and Leane never tried to move with Moggy.  They were able to feel Moggy's feelings through the adam.  We don't have Setalle Anan's point of view to know whether she was able to feel the Teslyn's feelings through the adam.<br /><br />Furthermore, neither the person who is stilled nor the person that is burnt out can feel the source.  That is the difference between someone who is shielded and someone who is stilled/gentled/burnt out.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 13:27:25
subject: <b>Woh there Wombat...</b>
body:
It has been stated throughout the series that Stilled women still feel the source, they are just unable to embrace it.<br /><br />Burned out women are completely removed from the source, hence they don't sense it...<br /><br />Blah,<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-01 14:24:17
subject: <b>I agree with Ash</b>
body:
This is the most well thought out theory I&#8217;ve read in a while. Good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-01 16:01:19
subject: <b>one side-note</b>
body:
I agree fullheartedly with the theory. Nice work!<br /><br />A side-note:<br />I recall there have been some arguments that &quot;the one who is no longer&quot; is Mat, meaning that he no longer is the horn-sounder (because of his adventures in Rhuidean).<br />This theory should put that discussion to an end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 19:16:44
subject: <b>Could still be Mat.</b>
body:
I agree with the majority here in that it's a very well thought out theory. I just feel that I should point out that Mat is still a candidate for the One Who Is No Longer. He found the bowl on his own and there is a reference to him as becoming less and less real, I think it's one of Egwenes dreams/visions. Just my thoughts...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 21:08:55
subject: <b>The thing with stilling vs burning out</b>
body:
If that's the difference, is it even possible to Heal Setalle? Nynaeve said the stilling was like a gap in a bridge,<br /> the contact is still there just broken or cut. On the other hand, wouldn't burningout be more like a landslide,<br /> destroying the bridge and the cliffedge so handily close to the Source? or maybe like a fire, completely burning<br />the bridge- synonymous with burning out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Tuibird in Aotearoa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-02 08:08:10
subject: <b>Stilling vs burning out</b>
body:
To answer RabidWombat, aside from the references in the books which indicate that a stilled woman can still sense saidar while one burned out can feel nothing of the Source, there are at least two interviews with RJ where he states as fact that very difference.<br /><br />It isn't answered conclusively by RJ whether being burned out might be healed, not that I can find. Then again, in the words of Nynaeve, anything short of death should be able to be healed.<br /><br />I'm still scrambling together bits and pieces of the _one who no longer is_ puzzle. I can't see it as being Mat. At the time and way it was said a lack of recognition is suggested. That would fit Mistress Anan well enough, but not Mat. Of course, that is only an impression, but RJ is consistent in his style about such things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-02 20:45:42
subject: <b>Just on Burnt out / stilled</b>
body:
Book 6, Prologue,<br />Suian and Leane, stilled, try to use the a'dam with Marigan as the leashed one.<br />Suian's turn: &quot;A look of wonder came onto her face immediately, then her eyes narrowed at Marigan. 'She hates us, and there's fear and... shock.'&quot;<br />Leanne's turn: &quot;the delight on Leanne's [face] as the bracelet snapped shut...&quot;<br /><br />Compare with Satelle, Book 9, &quot;Another Plan&quot;<br />&quot;Satelle closed the collar around the Aes Sedai's neck... Joline's mouth twitched, that was all... Side by side, the who women took a small step. Joline frowned uncertainly...&quot;<br /><br />The two stilled women are amazed at the reaction from the contact of the a'dam. Satelle shows no reaction at all. But is it realistic to say that burned out women and stilled would have different reactions? <br /><br />The Guide, page 12,<br />&quot;The stilled woman, like the gentled man, is cut off from the True source, always tantalised by the sense of saidar, yet unable to touch or channel it. The woman who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the Power.&quot;<br /><br />Since the burnt out woman cannot even sense the source, at seems more likely that she will not be able to sense a damane through an a'dam.


created: 2001-06-03 21:25:20
subject: <b>&quot;The one who is no longer&quot; and Mat</b>
body:
Of course the &quot;One&quot; is Mat.  He WAS killed Rhuidean, or near enough considering Rand had to get him up and moving.  Wouldn't that seperate the bond? Or maybe it has to be a full out death to seperate the bond of the horn.  I believe the latter.  As for Mat becoming less and less real, well its cause he will go back with the his &quot;wife&quot; the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  And in the series it says a few times that Rand, Perrin and Mat have to be together at the last battle or all will be lost.  Those are my ideas, I didn't have the books to back what I said and I haven't re-read the series in a while, so attribute the holes to that.


created: 2001-06-04 02:18:46
subject: <b>Mat is not the One</b>
body:
First of all, none of them would have found the Bowl without Setalle's help. I mean, really, it was in one of the Kin's store rooms and that is where they found it, they needed Setalle's help.<br /><br />Rawin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> The Babbler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-04 09:39:26
subject: <b>More</b>
body:
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.4_s-anan.html   -- there's a little more information there, if anyone is interested.


created: 2001-06-04 13:16:03
subject: <b>Thanks to everyone for their help</b>
body:
Sigh, I HATE being wrong.  I almost as bad as Nynaeve at admitting it.  But, I was wrong about stilled people not being able to feel the source.  It took me a long time to find a reference in the books.  (I don't have the BWB.) I went to maybe 6 or 7 places in the series where I knew it talked about stilling before I found one that said that a stilled person can feel the source.  I found no reference to whether being burnt out is different though.  (I find it rather curious that the BWB explicitly states that they are different, I woudn't expect that to be the case.  If you can accidentally burn yourself out such that you can't feel the source then why can't they find a way to duplicate that with stilling?)<br /><br />Anyway, none of this affects the facts about Setalle Anan.  As was mentioned in an earlier, well thought out, post, Setalle's and Joline's reactions are different than Siuan's and Moggy's.  This may constitute evidence of a sort; although it is definitely not proof since different people react very differently to the same events.<br /><br />Finally, although her role in finding the bowl is minimal, Birgitte qualifies remarkably as the one who is no longer.<br />In addition, Aviendha is no longer a maiden and had some part (in suggesting Mat).  All members of the Kin are 'no longer' part of the tower.  The expression is just to flexible.  That being said Setalle Anan seems to be the best fit.  (Especially since Mat's dice stopped when the inn was chosen.)<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-05 05:55:20
subject: <b>In regards to the theory and the resulting posts</b>
body:
I agree that Setalle is possibly an ex-Aes Sedai, but I think she would have to be something more than a normal sister to garner such respect.  Like possibly a deposed Amyrlin.  Keep in mind that novices don't learn what is in the secret histories of the tower.  Setalle not being able to a sul'dam is not a definite indicator she was burnt out.  Neither Siuan nor Leanne could sense anything through Moggy.  Also, Moggy didn't try to move so we don't know what might have happened.  Any comments would be welcome since this is my first post.


created: 2001-06-05 17:09:05
subject: <b>Well freakin done!</b>
body:
Impressive....MOST impressive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sheepherder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />Pain in the Dark One's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br />Snot on the Door Knob to his hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 01:37:21
subject: <b>Very Nice, better than I could do.</b>
body:
First off the constant quoting of source material was excellent. This is one of the rare theories I've read that clicked as right from the git go.<br /><br />   This some very good stuff. I think Setalle is very much more likely the One Who Is No Longer, than Mat Cauthon. The only suggestion that we have that Mat might not be linked to the Horn is his death at Caemlyn. He didn't die at Rhuidean, if he had Rand wouldn't have been able to save him. <br /><br />   When he (Mat) got zapped by lightning from Rhavin Rand had thought it to be proof that Mats fox medallion didn't work against Saidin. I think he's off about that. The lightning itself was not what Rhavin had channeled, it was the atmospheric condition that caused lightning to strike that was channeling. The actual lightning was natural, just brought about by unnatural means. When Rhav got Balefired that nullified Mats death, and thus nullified the breaking of his link to Horn of Valere.<br /><br />   By the way on an unrelated Mat note, I was reading Sandman volume 4 tonight which has an appearnce by Odin. With the exception of the missing eye (which has been theorized to be in Mats future) Odin looked like an older version of everyones favorite gambler. This cemented in my mind the already firm associations between the two. Good job on those peoples parts.<br /><br />   Anyhow great theory here, I hope to see more like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 02:53:44
subject: <b>One more quote</b>
body:
it isn't that much interesting as those in the theory but we all know how RJ likes playing with words. Here's what I found:<br />ACoS, paperback edition p.340, from Mat's POV<br />&quot;She was pretty despite a touch of gray in her hair, and her marriage knife nestled in roundness that normally would have drawn his eyes like moths to a candle, yet looking at her that way would have been like looking at... Not his mother. At an Aes Sedai maybe -though he had done that of course, just to look - or at Queen Tylin, the Light help him there. Putting a finger why was not easy. She simply had a way about her. It was just difficult to think of doing anything that would offend Setalle Anan.&quot;


created: 2001-06-06 14:19:46
subject: <b>Burned out</b>
body:
I'm just rereading TGH and found a interestingquote which should put an argument about the differences between burning out and being stilled, it in the Chapter the Testing on page 343. There Sheriam says: .. abilities burned out to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source. ..<br />This sentences indicates that the damage taken burning out varies, so Setalle could be still able to feel the source<br />or she couldn't and obviously she can't in WH. I think it's comparable to a Eletric Circuit if the amount of Voltage you use it with is only twice the normal amount thedamage will be small. Use the 10000 times the voltage andthe thing will burn to nothing. Thus some burned out could be helped some not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 22:46:55
subject: <b>Pretty good.....</b>
body:
...but pretty much all in the FAQ(with references) a while ago-here is the link as has already been pointed out:  http://hugin.imat.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.4_s-anan.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 17:27:50
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Who was the Wise Woman speaking with Setalle Anan when Mat came in looking for a place to hide his stuff?  As I remember, a pretty woman wearing a wide red sash smiled at him from her seat next to Setalle.  I don't have the books in front of me, so can't quote &quot;chapter and verse&quot;, but I thought someone might know.


created: 2001-06-08 22:05:23
subject: <b>Comments to Squall</b>
body:
Hey Squall!<br />       That was the most well-organized, well supported, well-wrapped up theory I have seen in over a year.<br />Not only did you back up your idea, you tied it in chronologically. THere is almost no doubt in my mind that you are right on the money with Setalle. Nice Work!<br />


created: 2001-06-11 11:09:52
subject: <b>Nit-Picking</b>
body:
I have a number of points to make, in different directions:<br /><br />1) I hate to be accusatory, and I may well deserve some serious flaming for this, but check out the link that RobTodd gave above in his post. You will find that large amounts of Squall Thrawn's post are quoted VERBATIM from the FAQ article on the subject (down to figures of speech and sentence structure).<br />   If you are part of the team who worte that original article, Squall, then I apologize immediately. Otherwise, I will acknowledge the truth of it, but keep my kudos in reserve. True, plaigiarism is just a different way to term academic referencing, but still...<br /><br />2) About the actual &quot;One Who Is No Longer&quot;: I agree that Setalle Anan is a great candidate. I also agree that she is obviously a former AS (perhaps one of the ousted Amyrlins from 25 years ago? That also fits the time...).<br />   But the &quot;One Who Is No Longer&quot; does not necessarily need to be her. We have another woman who was quite instrumental in finding the Bowl, and is also &quot;No Longer&quot; of the Tower - Reanne Corly herself! <br />   This is weak, I'll grant you, but not totally dismissible.<br /><br />3) Now, since there is no dispute at all that Setalle was AS, and may very well have been Martine, it has been suggested that she could help Elayne with the ter'angreal when she reaches her.<br />   Of course, you have forgotten something else important now: Elayne is now in contact with Rand and the Black Tower; more importantly, Nynaeve is with Rand and the Black Tower - and she knows how to Heal stilling!<br />   Burning out may be different than stilling, but how much? It would be safe to assume that Nynaeve could figure it out. Better yet - the Asha'man know how to Heal stilling as well, and Heal women (apparently) better than Nynaeve can!<br />   This sounds like a good chance at something even better than giving Elayne &quot;tips&quot;...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shloz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Reborn<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Fundamentalist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Soldier of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;No truce with the Shadow. No truce with the Forsaken.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 00:43:02
subject: <b>Taking it further into thought</b>
body:
If a woman who is burned out instead of stilled, then she may or may not be able to sense the source. If she is only stilled she definitely can. If they can sense saidar then would they be able to extrapolate that into seeing weaves and flows?<br /><br />   If Setalle is burnt enough that she can still sense the source, then she might be able to see flows as well. If not perhaps Nynaeve Cadabra Al'meara can fix her up and give her a new jolt of saidaric glee. If she can see flows but not affect them then she can tell Elayne what she's doing wrong and how to go about it right.<br /><br />   If Eben Hopwill (or Damer Flinn I forget the right name), the miracle ashamon that figured out how to heal stilled women can heal her so much the better. If he and Nynaeve were to team up and pool their knowledge together then they might be able to heal anything short of death or even beyond. All you Ressurection Rand theorist take note of that last statement.<br /><br />   If Setalle were Martine (who's status as the resident expert on Ter'angreal and ironic burning out was so tragic) then that is a good reason for other kin folk to show her more reverence than other members of the tower. As one of the foremost experts on one of the most dangerous undertakings and Aes Sedai can do, Martine Sedai would be a legend in her own right.<br /><br />   If the two are one the same then I think her first order of business would be to call Elayne down for ditching all the debri that she felt was junk because it didn't resonate to her. She might point out that there are some ter'angreal that don't register unless you know how to handle them right, or that some of them were in a dormant stage.<br /><br />   There is also the fact that many of those things may have been male specific ter'angreal. I don't think Setalline (the requisite combo name for when you think one char. might be another in disguise is now out of the way)would be to keen on giving any to the ashamon, but the idea that some of them could fall into Forsaken hands would be enough to make anyone nervous. Well anyone that isn't a friend of the dark anyway.<br /><br />   By the way I think I've said as much before, but my thoughts are that a severed or burnt person has to be healed by a person of the opposite gender. I've heard the theory that it might require a different approach for usage on women and men but can be done by either. I disagree, time and time again it's stated in various books that the greatest wonder of the Age of Legends came from using Saidar and Saidin together. With the possible exception of raising the dead I can't think of a greater miracle usage of the power.<br /><br />   Now the idea that there are separate methods that can only be used by a man or woman respectively does make sense. That's why Leanne and Siuan weren't returnd to full strength by Nynaeve. They would need to be approached by that ashamon fella to get things done did proper style.<br /><br />   By the way I think Birgitte is on equal footing with Setalle in ref. to being the 'One Who IS No Longer'. She was a hero of Legend and is now back in a mortal shell. That has to be as valid if not more so as Setalle being a burn out.<br /><br />   One more quick note to make. It makes sense that burning out is worse than severing. One is done by intent, while the other is done by overdose. That is at least the traditional method of burning out. The only way to burn a person out against their will would be to link with them via an a'dam. You would then have to cause them to tap into as much of the source as is safe, and take them pass the threshold of caution. This has the down swing of a possible feed back loop that could burn both the parties involved. If burning out isn't able to be cured like stilling and gentling then it'd be permanent. That would make stilling a much more viable option to go with.<br /><br />   The problem of if a stilled black ajah gal could find a way to get healed could be something that goes back to the healing itself. If a bridge of sorts is left with a gap that needs to be filled, then perhaps that gap could be blocked with a flow of power that would cause death to the person if removed. This cold be called 'capping' and be the next level of stilling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 03:23:14
subject: <b>I pretty much agree-</b>
body:
I always thought that she was an EX Aes Sedai, and kind of assumed that she was a stilled, probably Amerlyn Seat.<br /><br />Thyat she is the &quot;One No Longer&quot; seems reasonable to me, somewhat moreso than anyone else..


created: 2001-10-12 12:32:27
subject: <b>Mat Is No Longer</b>
body:
He actually died, i.e. is no longer.<br /><br />However you may argue Mat found the bowl of the wind on his own, and He was almost guaranteed to do so because of his &quot;Luck&quot; or shall I shay: T`avern effects affecting the chance of something happening (read the beginning of book 3 for the more dramatic effects of Rand`s t&#224;vern`ness d=)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 07:20:26
subject: <b>Mat is no longer</b>
body:
I Still think Mat is the one who is no longer, and because of his death in Caemlyn. In Rhuidean he didn't die, because if he did he wouldn't be alive now. RJ has made it abundantly clear throughout the series that death cannot be healed, not even by Rand. So i think Mat wasn't dead in Rhuidean. He died in Caemlyn and was resurrected by the use of balefier my Rand. Therefore he is no longer. I also think his thread was burnt out of the pattern, and that that is the reason he is fading, and becoming less real.


created: 2001-12-27 13:43:20
subject: <b>Setalle as AS</b>
body:
I totally agree with your theory that Setalle is a burned out AS.  As soon as I finished reading it, a thought occurred to me.  Nynaeve has figured out how to Heal stilling and gentling.  I can't imagine that being burned out is exactly the same kind of &quot;wound&quot; as stilling.  Has anyone considered that Setalle will find out about Nynaeve's discovery, insist she be taken to the camp, and ask Nynaeve to try Healing her?  Also, Setalle burned herself out while studying ter'angreal, something near and dear to Elayne.  I see those two becoming close and tag-teaming on some ter'angreal research.  They will need all they can find for TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 19:39:37
subject: <b>The key to finding the bowl is to FIND the one who is no longer</b>
body:
Regarding the one who is no longer, I have heard it theorized that it is Matt, Birgitte, Reanne Corly or Setalle Anan.  But note the exact wording of the phrase.<br /><br />&quot;The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.&quot; [LOC: 19, Matters of Toh, 436]<br /><br />to FIND the one who is no longer.<br /><br />Matt - Came with Elayne and Nyn to Ebou Dar.  How is that finding him? Rules him out.<br /><br />Birgitte - Again, came with Elayne and Nyn to Ebou Dar. Rules her out.<br /><br />Reanne Corly - Reanne was only a novice (maybe accepted?  but definitely not AS).  Whereas it could be her, I guess, its highly highly highly improbable.  Aes Sedai have a special distinction among the rest of the world's population.  There is no special distinction to be a novice, or even an Accepted.<br /><br />That leaves Setalle Anan as the One Who Is No Longer, as demonstrated by the posted theory.  (Which is about the most concise theory I have read so far)


created: 2002-06-02 14:27:34
subject: <b>Amyrlin too</b>
body:
I definitly agree with this theory... well thought out, phrased, worded, etc, but I think there's more to it. I think Setalle Anan was a former amyrlin seat who was stilled, possibly sometime during the aiel wars. Why? I don't have that much substantial proof. But she is formidable enough. And I think she can clearly sense the source...witnessed by her not blinking when nynaeve channeled. I think she would have to have known that was coming. Now we know that some burned out women can sense it, and some can't, whereas all stilled women can. It's simple probability that she's more likely to be stilled then. Anyways, she reminds me an awful lot of Siuan Sanche. And we know Jordan likes to do tricky things like that...who says he can't have parallel characters?? Anyways, just an idea.


created: 2002-06-29 12:38:42
subject: <b>RE: One more quote</b>
body:
There's another comment from Mat's POV relating to Setalle Anan, just one page later:<br /><br />&quot;The look she [Anan] gave Mat would have shamed an Aes Sedai for its perfect serenity.&quot;<br />


created: 2002-07-01 17:35:24
subject: <b>Very cool!</b>
body:
I always thought Setalle Anan was a strange woman, but I didn't look far enough into it to come up with all that! Great theory, and well-supported, too! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-<font color="gold">Sholyena</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />AKA <b><font color="blue">Yuna</font></b><br /><br />All hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />.... My most common gesture....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-23 09:24:52
subject: <b>Well done</b>
body:
Just to congratulate you, it was one of the best supported theories I have read, everything fits and your presentation was a great job, I will be looking forward to reading more of your theories.<br /><br />Santi


created: 2002-09-25 06:41:17
subject: <b>What about the Kin collecting ter 'angreal, etc?</b>
body:
I think that this is also proof positive that Setalle Anan was the AS who studied ter'angreal...  I don't have the books near, so I can't look, but can anyone back me up with details of who/how/when the Kin collected their stash?


created: 2002-10-04 15:37:48
subject: <b>Major flaw in the Mat theory</b>
body:
Mat wasn't the only one killed by Rhavin's lightnings and saved by Rand's balefire. Avhienda was annihalated too, as were many other Aiel. Thus, Mat can't be The One who is No Longer anymore than Avhienda can be, and if Mat's 'fading' was caused by that incident then Avhienda would be as well.<br /><br />Setalle Anan is most certainly the One. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-12 17:24:09
subject: <b>I AGREE BUT</b>
body:
YOU GOT PART OF THAT WRONG AS FAR AS SULDAM THE CONVULSIONS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING BURNED OUT AT LEAST NOT HOW YOU DESCRIBED IT THE REASON FOR THE CONVULIONS WAS THAT JOLINE WAS TRYING TO MOVE AROUND WITHOUT A SUL DAM TO COMPLETE THE LINK THE SAME AS IF NO ONE WERE WEARING IT AND FROM WHAT I REMEMBER THE ADAM USUALY KILLS BOTH THE MALE CHANELLER AND THE DAMANE DURING THE EMPRESSES LITLE GAME BECAUSE HE IS TRYING TO ENTER A LINK NO MAN CAN ENTER THERE WERE ALOT OF COMMENTS ON THE BLACK BOARD SO I DIDNT READ THEM IF ANY ONE ELSE POINTED THIS OUT I APPOLOGIZE FOR BEING REDUNDANT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-24 18:41:49
subject:
<b>Poops! somebody beat me to it!   NaCl(pout)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I finally figure out a good theory and find that somebody beat me to it! GRRRR!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 19:24:27
subject: <b>Here's a thought ...</b>
body:
... get Setalle healed of her burnt-out status ... then put her and Elayne together in a room for a while, discussing ter'angreal ... ! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-20 03:09:19
subject: <b>I was under the impression</b>
body:
I was under the impression that mat was fading to egwene because of the fox head medalion not because his thread is burnt


created: 2003-03-01 16:06:01
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Wow, never before had i thought Setalle Anan was a former AS but with your theory and the info that you used to prove it i must say that this must be true because of the timing and how Satalle knows about Joline and the former runaway(forgot her name).  Anyway good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


