# w_comment

created: 2006-02-13 00:51:07
subject: <b>collars</b>
body:
Semirhage left enough collars for the rest of the forsaken to be collared. Talk about ironic. Let them be the ones to vanquish the dark one while Rand and his gang hold the leashes.......


created: 2006-02-13 08:09:18
subject: <b>Strongly Disagree</b>
body:
A lot of arguments against a planned capture have been mentioned already:<br /><br />Let me state the biggest one that hasn't been mentioned yet:<br /><br />-Why do all these theories about a so-called capture pop-up? Because this capture went &quot;so easy&quot;.....Did it? Or were we all fooled (or dissapointed however you wanna call it) by RJ's way of covering this (anti-)climactic event? I think the last.<br />RJ could have covered the incident from 3 or 4 perspectives simultaneously describing to us all the fireworks and channeling magic and battle emotions, adrenaline etc.<br />But what does he do? He makes us follow Rand, he let's us see it from his PoV, looking through his eyes, which means seeying nothing and not getting back to the scene untill it's all over....Leaving us all with the very FALSE feeling that it was over before Semi could say &quot;boo&quot; and without any effort....which it was not..<br /><br />&gt;&gt;2nd<br /><br />As for preparations and all that:<br /><br />-The capture was risky, but still covered as well as possible considering Rands status, companions and distrustfullness. The only thing that spoiled it were unforseen and rare ter'angreal. Without those she would have been &quot;non channeling Tuon&quot; being able to walk the field as an unseen wildcard, shielding, killing or collaring at will while everyone's elses attention was on the damane. ....like Halima in the AS camp..<br /><br />-Planning to be captured is ofcourse a Mad Risk. The DO might not feel like reviving Semi, after all we don't know on whose orders she tries to capture Rand, might be her own plan? Also the time frame of getting revived can be quite long, making her miss TG, you don't know what kind of body you get (do you think semi would be allright with a 2nd grade body?) not to mention the nightmare sleeps in limbo etc.<br />-Flicking a fireball towards Rands head and fighting his male/female allies is not a great way to assure your own survival and capture.<br /><br />Ofcourse she is very composed when finally shielded, always make the most of the situation!<br /><br />Ok, my take on it.


created: 2006-02-13 14:30:11
subject: <b>She could have hid the extra damane</b>
body:
Rand and his allies had no way of checking what was in the manor before the battle. Semirhage could have had another 6 damane and sul'dum hidden there, watching from a window and ready to help her capture Rand. But, Semirhage didn't do that, and I don't think that she did that out of respect for the agreement of 6 channelers on each side. So we can safely say that she didn't want to capture or even kill Rand. That leaves only the possibility that she wanted to get captured. That she shot a fireball at Rand was just an extra. If she had managed to kill him with it, then good. If he blocks it, then oh well.<br /><br />Even though the battle was close, Semirhage had to know that Rand would have his army somewhere nearby. She is not dumb, and anyone would have had back-up somewhere nearby so she had to suspect that Rand's allies would be ready to help him if he sent a signal. This is more proof that Semirhage couldn't have expected her plan to succed. That is, if her plan isn't to get captured.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I have no way to really prove that my theory is right, but I think that there has been too much build-up for this confrontation for it to be over so soon. Rand has wanted a treaty with the Seanchan for a long time, and Semirhage has been posing as Anath for a long time, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 03:27:22
subject: <b>to the person above</b>
body:
First of all i believe that the option of hiding more damane in the house is invalid. Rands party could have felt the presence of other channelers that close. Remember the Seanchan know nothing about inverting weaves or hiding the ability. <br /><br />Flicking a fireball towards Rands head knowing it might kill or terribly maim him is still a very bad and uncertain way to assure your own well being for capture I must persist. If Rand would've died she has disobeyed the orders of the Naeblis, for as much as we know the DO himself (Let the lord of chaos rule) and she would be left at the mercy of Rands outraged and leaderless followers...Do you think she would have good odds of surviving any of those? I think not..<br /><br />I still think that a lot of people discredit the feeling of self assurance a powerfull superior feeling FO has when he or she knows she can walk the battlefield unsuspected, with no-one seeying her weaves, feeling her ability and suspecting danger from her.<br />I would feel pretty certain of myself in her situation and theres always a quick Travel to safety.


created: 2006-02-14 03:34:36
subject: <b>And...</b>
body:
Please let us all look at it from a different angle.<br /><br />If you were Semirhage, and you wanted to be captured by Rands party, or just basically get inside his party to cause division, how would you have attempted it?<br /><br />Certainly not by such a high risk, elaborate ruse as this one? I could think of many safer and surer ways to get myself captured and not rouse suspicion.


created: 2006-02-20 20:59:02
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I don't believe her plan was to be captured, ideally I believe her plan was to capture Rand.  She COULDN'T bring hundreds of damane, that would be far too conspicuous.  Six damane (probably hand-picked for power) plus herself would be a formidable force, especially when they had surprise on their side.  Capturing Rand with one of those male a'dam would be the Shadow's greatest triumph.  However, she would have settled for killing him (as demonstrated by her fireball).  If Rand had been a moment slower, it would have been his head gone rather than his hand.  As for why Semmy wasn't terrified...it's because it takes more than capture to frighten someone who's done the things she's done and been the places she's been.  She knows she's caught and, for the moment at least, she can do little about it...so what good would panic be?  She's not going to be killed, she's far too valuable...at worst she'll be tortured (which she's more than capable of withstanding) or being leashed like a damane.  I'm sure she'll make the best of a bad situation, but she certainly wasn't trying to get caught.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-01 20:42:29
subject: <b>I don't know about Semirhage. . .</b>
body:
I think Semirhage is really full of herself. She's a big bad forsaken after all. To me, that's why she's not that phased about being captured. She escaped capture before, so it's not that big of a deal to her.<br /><br />I look forward to her talks w/ Cadsuane. There should be an interesting exchange of words there.<br /><br />I doubt that she wanted to get captured. There's just not enough proof to me. I predict that she will sow dissension amongst Rand's team, or cause trouble of some sort. Maybe through Alivia - I don't know. But I don't she got captured on purpose


created: 2006-02-12 03:18:08
subject: <b>I really debated...</b>
body:
Whether or not to give a thumbs up to this theory. I do think the body switch is probable, but the Fisher King as proof is a little shaky. RJ does love to foreshadow, but just because he doesn't write &quot;his only hand&quot;..? Perhaps his symbolism is not so straightforward. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-02-12 05:02:21
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Though i'm not sure how much to agree with. Quite alot of this theory is based on &quot;proof&quot; from the Fisher King. I saw the wounds that Fisher King had suffered wounds that Rand is suffering from, however, I thought that the bandages were just symbolism for the Fisher King/Rand being blind to everything around him. Ishamael/Moridin has always said how blind Rand and even Lews Therin was to the battle between Light and Shadow, the bandages on the Fisher King help to illustrate that.<br /><br />Semirhage was also a great Healer of the body, so maybe she could Heal Rand's hand back if he would ever let her. This could account for the Fisher King's hands, rather than hand, it was only a temporary loss. You may ask why the wound in the side is still represented if Semirhage can Heal almost anything, maybe it's been a part of Rand for so long, or maybe because of the Evil that sustains the wound, she cannot touch it?<br /><br />I don't really think Rand is developing the Saa either. I think the fireball he had explode in front of his face caused damage to his eyes, as it would do. Moridin has commented (I seem to recall) that the Saa doesn't affect his vision when the occur, and they are very visible to other people. So if Rand had the Saa, it wouldn't have affected his vision, the others would have noticed and even if Rand could see the Saa, they have been described as black flecks that move horizontally across the eyes, seeming to cross from one to the other with ease. The flecks Rand suffered are from the fact that he just got fireballed, suffered huge damage to his system and just regained consciousness. I get flecks floating in my eyes when I wake up, let alone after being fireballed and unconscious.<br /><br />Maybe Moridin wants Rand alive because he is so powerful. He is not vital for the Light or Shadow to win, but which ever side has him at Tarmon Gaidon will find it a whole lot easier. If Rand is on the side of the Shadow, it'll be so much easier to defeat the world, not only will they have lost the most powerful Channeler, but also the figurehead of the Light, what a loss in morale it will be. People have always thought they needed Rand to win for the Light, they'd probably flee and be cut down like dirty dogs if they lose Rand.<br /><br />Alternatively, Moridin may want Rand's body for a swap. but I don't see why. Channeling is connected to the soul, so why bother with Rand's body, unless Moridin suffers from small man syndrome....But the comment about playing both sides may mean that he will do it if the Shadow's plan goes awry. Though he had best seal the Dark One away properly if he does play for the side of the Light....<br /><br />I think I just talked myself into a &quot;no&quot; vote. I have a feeling this one will be mostly &quot;yes&quot;s though.<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-12 13:33:58
subject: <b>I agree with some of it</b>
body:
I agree that Moridin and Rand will switch bodies, and that there is a strong connection between them. However, I think that their connection formed when their balefire streams met. The wound from Falme has nothing to do with the connection. Since the wound is filled with the True Power, it is possible that it is corrupting Rand, but that is not related to your theory.<br /><br />When someone has a hand cut off (or any other limb) they can still feel their hand. They might have a feeling like their hand itches or that it hurts, but it is not a physical feeling. It is just something that your mind imagines. <br /><br />When someone gets hit by a fireball I think it is very likely that the person wouldn't be able to see for some time after that. I don't believe that it has anything to do with the saa. I do think it is possible that Rand wiill go blind because of this, but it has nothing to do with the saa. If it had been the saa Nynaeve would have noticed and she wouldn't have said, &quot;there's something wrong with your eyes&quot;. She would have commented on the flecks.<br /><br />Rand and Moridin will switch bodies. I don't think that Alivia will put the a'dam on Rand, she will just shoot a fireball at him or something.<br /><br />I like your theory, but I just can't agree to some of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 15:37:31
subject: <b>Just to let you know</b>
body:
There is a Phenomenon where people who lose an hand, or an arm or something feel that hand. Its called like ghost hand or something, and their brain thinks that the missing appendage is still there. That could explain why Rand still feels his hand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 17:33:58
subject: <b>some parts are feasible</b>
body:
the body switch, and the Moridin dies at Alivia's hands bit. <br /><br />The switch and merger are not the same, otherwise LTT would not be involved one bit. It will be LTT fighting Ishy's sould in the end.<br /><br />The taint spilling from Rands wound, not possible at all. The taint has remained in Rand even after what three times the wound has opened now, but good try though.<br /><br />And Rand does'nt feel Moridin's hand he feels his own hand through a phenomenon called &quot;Phantom hand.&quot; <br /><br />How would Ishy know the properties of two bfire streams crossing, why would he want to speed up the link to inhabit Rand's decrepit body, he has a perfectly fine body himself? <br /><br />How does Alivia recognize the shift/change in Rand during TG? I agree she is responsible for his death, but what causes her to take action?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 20:39:50
subject: <b>have to disagree</b>
body:
interesting but have to disagree, the idea that he can remove the taint from the wound by opening it up is interesting but it has opened before, but perhaps if it is open and bled enough (perhaps to his death?) it might be removed?  I've always thought Navane would be albe to eventualy heal the hand but the fisher king is just a symbol so the hands may not be literal one of Jordan's themes is how things are forgotten as time moves on.  As other have said he can still feel his hand because of the phantom hand syndrome which as an ex millitary man in Nam (where many many people lost limbs) would be something Jordan would be all to familar with.


created: 2006-02-12 22:43:59
subject: <b>Awesome repsonses everyone</b>
body:
Yes, I am aware of phantom pain, but I think that the whole episode with Rand and the fireball (all just my suspicions) is RJ trying to fool us by putting in a sight related issue, the saa, with an attack on his eyes. Yes, his eyesight was watery, but why say that there were black flecks. I think he's trying to slip something by us. As for the hand, I think the same thing again. Rand seems to be drawing attention to his hand a little too much. As for Nynaeve being able to tell if he saw the saa, well, she noticed something different that she couldn't fix- KNEW that she couldn't fix, right away. Oh, and the saa might be something that you have to get used to. It's there, running across your eyes, but one becomes accustomed to it, perhaps like wearing glasses that have a smudge.<br /><br />As to the TP in his side, I believe that the TP, coming from the DO, is similar to the taint, also from the DO. I think that it does what the DO has been doing to the world- tearing it apart. Boundaries and limits become illusory and nebulous. I think that the bond between souls does the same for Rand via the taint, thus LTT. Then, I think that the TP does the same for Rand and Moridin. Yes, we do not know what combining balefires does, but we do know one affect of balefire- somehow, things move back in time. Well, why not forward when using two, or TP and OP balefire?<br /><br />About the wound- I think, as Rand has said many times, the he'll die from the wound at his side. When that opens, he's dead. I also think, as the saviour has to shed his blood for the good of the people, that his blood, containing the evil of the DO, will have to be spilt to beat the DO.<br /><br />Finally, what causes Alivia to realize Rand's change? Someone suggested Perrin's keen ability to smell personality changes. I thought that she, being so dedicated, might notice differences herself, but that thing about Perrin might be on the money.<br /><br />Thanks for the responses. I just want to figure out Moridin's plans. (As an aside, can anyone figure out why the DO told Demandred to 'let the lord of chaos rule' because that seems a big piece of the puzzle with the other side, and I'm still wondering.)


created: 2006-02-13 00:06:39
subject: <b>Another point of reasoning behind the body switch</b>
body:
While Moridin was describing the game, he said the Fisher constantly changed sides. This could be the battle over control between Rand and Moridin or even Rand and LTT. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-13 03:19:05
subject: <b>Something Else...</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, Moridin was just as surprised as Rand with the effects of the two Beams of BaleFire connecting.  I do believe that the final battle of Rand and Ishy will take place in there heads and will hopefully leave Rand in Moridin's body, leaving him heathty enough to do what he has to remake the DO's Prison...But the connection I think is something that ether of the fully understand or even notice at this point.


created: 2006-02-15 10:51:06
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I&#180;ve thought of parts of this for a long time and I agree with some other parts too but I doubt that he feels Ishamael's hand and I also doubt that he should have made their balefire streams cross because he wanted to speed the process. Overall I thought you made a few good points.


created: 2006-02-15 17:05:19
subject: <b>what moridin feels</b>
body:
If Rand can feel the connection to Moridin, who he doesn't even know, then I think it very likely that Moridin knows about the connection, and probably knows more about it than anyone suspects.<br /><br />I think that the TP is similar to the taint in that it opens up souls. That's how Moridin can make the body-switch. I want to add to this the fact that Rand can draw pictures (PoD) since LTT could draw. I think it likely that Moridin/Ishamael knows things from over the years from his old soul- he's a philosopher and the archetypal nemesis of LTT- and I think he might be wise to the connection between himself and Rand. Finally, I find it suspicious that we learn nothing of this connection on Moridin's end.


created: 2006-02-16 12:49:05
subject: <b>The Two Hands</b>
body:
As for Rand having two hands, perhaps one hand may be an artificial one? Besides the obvious possibility of Nynaeve or Sumiko healing Rand's hand to entirety, perhaps he receives a new, artificial hand from one of two possible sources:<br /><br />1. The Power: Perhaps it is a hand crafted of Air or Fire or maybe even Earth? He CAN create a sword of fire with the power, and other things like switches, platforms, and hammers can be simulated with Air, so the loss of a physical hand might not be that big of an impediment to someone who can replicate one with the Power<br /><br />2. Rand's &quot;Academy&quot; in Cairhien and Caemlyn: A lesser possibility, but one nontheless. In Rand's visions in Rhuidean, he sees what are essentially flying machines and cars, so the height of technology may return to newer, higher areas as well (I personally believe that channeling will be totally seared from humanity by the end and leave us relying on technology...until channeling is &quot;rediscovered&quot; sometime later in the Wheel's turning, but that's a topic for another post  :-)  ) In the space of a few months, they've already produced primitive combination cars/trains, so why not other miracles? After all, the world's strongest Ta'veren is pushing the bill with the school, so I don't find the miracles coming from it surprising at all.<br /><br />Also, the whole hand thing kind of leads credence to the whole &quot;Rand is Luke Skywalker&quot; theory, but I won't go into that here as I'm not entirely sold on it as a metaphor. However, if RJ is using Star Wars for inspiration, perhaps Rand just MIGHT get an artificial hand like Luke did.<br />


created: 2006-02-16 13:47:46
subject: <b>Rand's Hand</b>
body:
Something also to think about...<br />In many of Min's Viewings of Elyane she saw a &quot;bloody hand that wasn't her own&quot; so it's possible that maybe Miss Ter-angreal maker may provide our falling apart hero with something in this area


created: 2006-02-16 22:39:13
subject: <b>comments about the hand</b>
body:
I do not think that Rand will get his hand fixed or somehow replaced (no ter'angreal or use of the power). Rand's thoughts when he looks at his hand are that he'll have to relearn how to use the sword. I know it's not much, but I think we have to get used to the idea of Rand having only one hand. After the body-switch, however, I think that'll get back the body he needs.


created: 2007-05-29 19:53:47
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
I agree somewhat with this theory, the only point i flatly disregard is when Rand says that he should still be able to feel his hand after it gets blown off.<br /><br />If you lived with your hand for 25ish years, and one day i suddenly was gone, you would instinctivly feel like you could move it. I'll compare this too if you have long hair, and one day you cut it all off. When you move your head you at first feel like your hair should be there, which is exactly how Rand feels


created: 2006-02-12 04:45:48
subject: <b>Nice theory!</b>
body:
A very nice theory, indeed!<br /><br />But I don't agree...<br />What would Semi gain herself from posing as Tuon?<br />She would serve the goals of Moridin and the DO, sure, but then how much more could she not gain just from simply capturing Rand and using the a'dam to control him?<br />With Rand as her pet damane, she could challange Moridin for sure, and thereby being Nae'blis. She could possibly even challenge the DO/Creator themselves had she wanted to (at least if we are to believe Lanfear).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />For the honor of J.R.R.Tolkien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Gambler, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> Tharand, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 10:41:21
subject: <b>A few things bother me...</b>
body:
First, great theory. Its a take I would never have considered myself. Yet, I must disagree.<br /><br />1. MoM. Lanfear kept her illusion well. Mesaana, on the other hand, was awful. Mesaana couldn't even keep her disguise through someone kissing her feet. At least part of it. Yuck.<br /><br />Now, as Selene, Lanfear wasn't really disguised all that much. Just barely, really. Enough to hide a few years. The smaller the illusion, the easier to keep. Kadere was harder, yet, what came into contact? Arms, hands, that's it.<br /><br />Now, as Tuon, Semirhage is short. REALLY short. In reality, Semirhage is a very tall woman. VERY tall. Probably about 6'2 would be my guess. Doorways may be tall enough that she wouldn't have to duck. But how she reaches for things would be totally off. I think you'd watch her feed herself and something would just be wrong. I don't think you could tie off an illusion that would also make a fork you grabbed later look like its going into your mouth a foot below where it really is. That'd require more channeling. Unless it involves Semirhage masking her ability and NEVER letting go. Because you hide your ability by grabbing saidar and THEN weaving a weave of spirit to hide it. That would be VERY difficult. <br /><br />Note, for others agreeing with me, that men cannot sense a woman masking her ability, as Rand has no idea Cadsuane and Nynaeave have done so on their ride to meet her.<br /><br />2. Its too risky. Semirhage is no fool. Even if no one saw her at the Cleansing doesn't mean she doesn't realize how the Chosen got beat. Saidin is clean and Aginor is missing. She at least suspects he died there. Furthermore, I cannot forsee her doing this on her own. It would have been an explicit DO order to make her do a plan this crazy by herself. Even if she was arrogant. <br /><br />With all that said, if it turns out it was her plan in the next book, I won't be that surprised. If nothing else, I'd say the majority of users here just think something fishy happened in that scene.<br /><br />If it was Semirhage being a fool, planning on getting captured, or just not having more of a backup plan or safety nets, something was wrong. Maybe RJ was just rushed so abandoned his earlier plans? I somehow doubt that. Something's up. <br /><br />Honestly? I don't think I'll fully believe ANY theory about this. Its just one of the things we'll have to be flat out told.<br /><br />In the end, this may be the biggest WoT mystery after all is said and done, even surpassing who killed Asmodean (which Graendal seems to continue to grow more and more support on).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 13:51:13
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Good theory!<br /><br />I agree that Semirhage's plan couldn't be to capture Rand, and I believe that she wanted to get captured. The problem is how she wanted to get captured.<br /><br />As Lord Scimitar said, MoM just affects your appearance. If someone watched &quot;Toun&quot; eat, they would see that something is wrong when she brings the fork a foot above her head to eat it.<br /><br />Also as Toun, what could she do that would be helpful to the DO? Rand wouldn't have trusted her and I doubt that any of the others would have been friendly with her either. Rand wouldn't have told her anything. He would have forced her to sign a treaty because she is his captive, so she has to do what he wants.<br /><br />It is a good theory, though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 14:42:24
subject: <b>Not that I agree with this theory, but...</b>
body:
I think that if it was her plan to be captured as Tuon, Suroth's attempt to kill the real Tuon would have mixed in with her plan.  If Suroth had suceeded, there would have been tons of rumors of Tuon being dead, while other rumors of &quot;Tuon&quot; going to meet Rand.  Mix the two together, it sounds like Rand killed Tuon, and the Seanchan won't exactly want to help Rand out.  In fact, they'll probably try to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 15:32:26
subject: <b>I think its pretty interesting</b>
body:
I won't be surprised if this is what was supposed to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 20:22:40
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
Interesting but I have to dissagree.  I think she was simply arrogant enough to think she would be able to capture him.  Especially given Jordan's comments on the blog about evil's plans going awray.  She didn't bring more people because she might have then gotten outed, as the people came forward.  If however she could have gotten Rand in the house by himself or even with the three women she would have been able to capture him, and spirit him away almost immeaditly through a gateway or some such.  As for the damane they could have been killed easily or just left behind (probably killed).  She overestimated her strength, got caught and now is just going to have to make the best of it.


created: 2006-02-12 23:56:28
subject: <b>Not quite</b>
body:
As others have pointed out, Tuon is short while Semi is tall. I think that others were able to pull off their disguises because they wouldn't be touched. However, I think it highly likely that at some point, maybe as an accident, Tuon/Semi would be touched. Rand's is arrogant enough not to obey Seanchean protocol, especially if he doesn't know who Tuon is (it was Alivia who told him that Tuon is the DotNM). So I don't know if Semi would risk it as Tuon the whole way.<br /><br />Also, I don't think  that Tuon would be able to influence Rand's position in the same way that Semi is able to. Many think that she is taking advantage of a poor situation, but I think it works better than her being Tuon. Suroth could have still made the argument that Rand killed Tuon, no biggie there with all of the rumors we've seen in earlier books, but Semi holds a certain amount of danger as herself. She will be the poison for both Rand and his group. People know not to trust her, but what do you do when she reveals things that are true, dangerous, and something you never could have known otherwise. It's that little doubt inside that makes one hesitate at the crucial moment. Even Min might look at him askance.


created: 2006-02-13 05:05:44
subject: <b>i aggree</b>
body:
This same idea was posted by LogainReborn as a responce to the theory &quot;Semirhage's plan is going well,&quot; but yours is  pretty thorough and well explained.  I think this probably hits close to home.<br /><br />Although we may never know, I believe that Semirhage's plan also included having &quot;Tuon&quot; die while in Rand's custody, thus ensuring that Rand and the Seanchan never get along, and affectively handing rule over to Suroth to be the new Empress who Semirhage could control.


created: 2006-02-13 14:32:41
subject: <b>Rand would have figured it out</b>
body:
I liked some of the Ideas, but I'm I agree with something I read elsewhere, that semi thought she could win (assuming she sent trollocs to attack Rand in tear) she is of course aware that rand is the strongest of the group, I would be very surprised if she knew Logain was to be there, and so, she would (presumably) guess that the next strongest channeller down from Rand, was Nynaeve (unless moggy was too embarrased to talk about it). Now I'm assuming Semi is a fair amount stronger than Nyn, but even so, she has by far the greater skill and knowledge, she THOUGHT she could win. But, if she did intend to be captured as Tuon, she would be screwed the first time Rand thought of Mat wouldn't she? Mat and Rand tend to say things that apply to both of them when they're around (in LoC I think, Rand quietly says to himself how he shouldn't have another man inside his head, Mat assumes Rand knows about his memories) perhaps Rand has heard Mat talking about DOTNM. Even if he hasn't, Rand isn't soooo stupid he wont notice he has a woman in his captivity, who is Identical (aside from hair lengths) to someone Mat is with all the time. So in short, whether Semi wanted Rand collared, or she wanted to be captured, SOMETHING went wrong (unless somehow she knew about Nyn and cadsuanes'   T-greals, which I doubt)


created: 2006-02-13 14:44:30
subject: <b>I like your theory and as promised a thumbs up was entered</b>
body:
I think every objection to this theory except the MOM is invalid.  The male adam is not a stable utensil.  We have been informed by Moggy that the man will eventually be able to resist the adam and there is even the possibility that when that time comes he could impose punishments on the suldam or even control her channeling.  If we remember the origins of the orignal adam it is unlikely that the sul'dam who used the male adam could channel and so the possibility of controlling the sul'dam's channeling never presented itself.  I think Semirhage is well aware of these possibilities and it would be insane for her to try to collar Rand knowing that she might one day be the prisoner.  It would also be insane to let some random suldam control him either.  So the male adams really work better as props than as actual adams and any argument to the contrary is misplaced.<br /><br />I do have an aside for you though.  The Tanchio adam felt sad because it had actually held someone prisoner.  It has a psychic signature or impression that Nynaeve seems to be extra sensitive too.  These new adam should not have such a signature.  For those who argue that the functionality of the adam indicates that Semi really wanted to capture Rand please consider that when &quot;Tuon&quot; was captured it would have seemed fishy if her adam didn't work.  In order for her infiltration to work everything would have to fit in with &quot;Tuon&quot; actually trying to capture Rand.  If they realized that her props were props they would be able to figure out her real plan.<br /><br />I do have a least a partial defense for the MOM.  Our first demonstration by Moiraine proves that there is plenty of room for puppetting.  So &quot;Tuon&quot; should be able to bring a fork to her mouth because the illusion would simply bend the fork into the right place.  The only problems &quot;Tuon&quot; would have is if someone tried to physically restrain her or if they tried to make her wear new clothes that would fit a petite woman.  Neither option is likely.<br /><br />As for Semi channeling. It is entirely posssible to do so while she is in captivity.  When you hide your ability it is hidden whether you are channeling or not and if you reverse your weaves they are invisible to all even if there is still a debate about if the degree that they can still be sensed.  As Tuon Semi could channel and escape at anytime with little possibility of beign caught.  If she has any handle on Compulsion it is likely that any glitches she has with her disguise can be covered up with reversed weaving from a non-channeling Tuon.<br /><br />So the main objections to your theory are<br />1.  Since the adam were real Semirhage really wanted to capture Rand because she technically was &quot;prepared&quot; to.<br />2.  Semirhage would have benefited more from capturing Rand than from infiltrating his camp.<br />3.  That the MOM would be discovered.<br />4.  That maintaining her disguise would require her to channel.<br /><br />Each of these can be explained away.<br />1.  If the adam were fake or if she didn't have enough Rand would have suspected she was trying to infiltrate.<br />2.  The male adam eventually traps the suldam as well as the man.  The consequences to a channeling suldam might even be more dangerous than Moggy reported.<br />3.  The MOM mirror might well allow the puppeting to withstand everything but direct touch or wardrobe changes.<br />4. If Semi needed to channel masking her ability and reversing her weaves are both available.  Indeed masking remains even if you aren't channeling.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-13 15:48:13
subject: <b>I'm not convinced overall</b>
body:
but well done for iterating that whatever she was up to, she had to conduct it as &quot;Tuon&quot;. This may be crucial to figuring out what really went down.


created: 2006-02-15 00:00:18
subject: <b>Thumbs up. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I'm glad you submitted this, it is a very interesting take on those confusing events. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-15 11:00:53
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I agree but I&#180;ve got a thought about those male ter'angreals... The feel of pain and misery didn&#180;t that come from people suffering those emotions in the ter'angreal? So then the new ter'angreals wouldn&#180;t feel like that... Just a thought.


created: 2006-02-15 13:54:16
subject: <b>Nice thought</b>
body:
I like the theory. Consider that if Rand captured Tuon, and the rest of the Seanchan thought she was dead, that would rule out any prospects of a truce before TG. <br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised, however, if this was just a backup plan. I think she probably wanted to capture Rand for real, knowing that with her power combined with his, she could topple Ishy and any of the other Forsaken that stood up to her. The main reason that I think this is that she was in control of the sad bracelets, too good of a weapon to just use as bait.  She probably knows TG is coming, figures it is now or never, so she took a chance on capturing Rand and becoming the most powerful, and if it fails she is creating more chaos in the world to help the DO in TG.


created: 2006-04-26 01:59:21
subject: <b>male adam...</b>
body:
has it ever been ascertained that a female could use a male adam?  <br /><br />I remember asmod telling rand that MoM works best on subtle changes...semi to tuon would be far from subtle...but semi would know that and be prepared...<br /><br />at know point in the series have we really seen semi freelancing at all...now after moridin tells everyone the time for going your own way is over she does just the opposite...semi has always been a good soldier seems incongruant that she would change her style this late in the game...<br /><br />so why did MoM flicker?  I was thinking about how at various times in KoD the world started to flicker and buildings moved around as the pattern started becoming undone...only problem with that is no one else experiences the flicker...<br /><br />this whole scene was very confusing...get better RJ


created: 2006-07-07 00:08:53
subject: <b>indamous</b>
body:
The MoM on Semi flickered because Cadsuane has a Ter'angreal that is similiar to Mat's medallion in that it effects flows of the power. Cadsuane's ter'angreal allowed her to know Semi was channeling and she somehow used the ter'angreal from a distance to disrupt the MoM. And this is a great theory, I totally agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-20 19:08:59
subject: <b>About the male adam</b>
body:
What if Nynaeve could not fell pain/suffering because the male adam had not been used on any male yet? and if semirhage was planing on getting captured she waz running a high risk


created: 2006-02-12 04:50:45
subject: <b>A Great theory, it is!</b>
body:
A Great theory, it is!<br /><br />I really enjoyed this one!<br /><br />Personally, I believe Mat has more traits from Han Solo than Lan does.<br /><br />Also, Loial is a bit of C3PO as well.<br /><br />But the obvious question:<br />A Yoda parallell, there is?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />For the honor of J.R.R.Tolkien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Gambler, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> Tharand, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 13:55:30
subject: <b>Not so sure...</b>
body:
The similarities between WoT and Star Wars are just coincidence. RJ used <i>myths</i> to make some of the characters. Star Wars isn't a myth, its a story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 14:11:22
subject: <b>Love it!</b>
body:
I've always been a much bigger fan of WOT than of Star Wars, but I know the story well enough to agree with you! The only part I dont like is the R2D2 as Mat part... but still a great theory. Any thoughts on who Yoda would be though? Someone extremely old, powerful, and who after teaching hte hero much of what he needs to know dissapears/dies. I propose the most logical answer would be Asmodean, since he is both old and powerful, teaches Rand a lot about handeling the power, and after he teaches what he can, he disappears/dies... Any thoughts?


created: 2006-02-12 15:02:10
subject: <b>Remember, this is humorous</b>
body:
First off, I wrote this to get it included in the Humor category of theories.  'Nuff said.<br /><br />I don't know who Yoda would be but Asmodean would be the best guess.  I stopped writing the theory at the time because of time constraints and I was wondering if I was beginning to go from plan &quot;humorous&quot; to &quot;was funny but now getting old&quot;.<br /><br />In all seriousness, I was thinking about legends and myths but in regards to a hero and his 2 sidekicks, I could only think of Luke Skywalker.<br /><br />Well, it was intended to get a laugh anyway.<br /><br />Nikolai al Farran<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 15:28:01
subject: <b>um</b>
body:
the similarities aren't coincidence. If anyone has ever watched &quot;Empire of Dreams&quot; he or she would know that Lucas drew from the common cores of mythology to develop his characters. RJ has also done this, but with more specialization. We see the general archetype in Star Wars and the narrow parallel in The Wheel of Time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a dark seed growing<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath<br />Trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 20:11:46
subject: <b>until I saw this was humor..</b>
body:
didn't think much of it.  As humor it is quite funny, only problem is that Rand isn't Lewis Therrin's son but then it is a humor theory..


created: 2006-02-12 22:37:09
subject: <b>To continue the list:</b>
body:
Yoda is Moiraine - very knowledgeable, instructs on how to learn but cannot teach the power - can only instruct on how to learn.<br /><br />I thought Obi Wan was Asmodean - both act as teachers for Luke/Rand, then get themselves killed.<br /><br />Loial is definitely Chewbacca. Both speak very strangely, and can do a lot of damage when angry.<br /><br />Jabba the Hut is Padan Fain, without a doubt.<br /><br />The emperor is Ishamael/Moridin, not the DO.<br /><br />Anyone think that Narg might be Jar Jar Binks?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-13 06:42:42
subject: <b>Imperial Officers</b>
body:
You said that Imperial Officers, who wear black, were like Myddraal. Imperial Officers don't wear black, they wear very dark green, which some people call black, like Seanchan Seekers.


created: 2006-02-13 15:30:21
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Hmmm.... the force and the source seem to have suspiscious resemlences....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-13 17:48:09
subject: <b>obi wan as thom??</b>
body:
i reckon obi wan should be tam, the whole not his son thing but looked over him for his childhood, also tam giving rand the heron mark sword and obi wan giving luke anakins light saber


created: 2006-02-15 23:47:25
subject: <b>Imperial Officers</b>
body:
normal officers wear green but stormtrooper officers were black when they are not in armor<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nalesean was my hero.<br /><br />I hate that Gholam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-21 18:09:07
subject: <b>What's most disturbing is how well it works.</b>
body:
Or possibly how much time you spent on it; I'm not sure.  Oh, and both Yoda and Moiraine are short and talk funny, Moiraine with her musically chiming deliverance of opaque declarations (gee, Moiraine, thanks for sharing that insight no one else understands, I know so much more now) and Yoda with his gravelly axioms in passive voice delivers he. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-26 16:08:25
subject: <b>Yoda talk</b>
body:
Just to add another Yoda parallel, have you ever figured out exact literal translations of the old tongue, without changing the construction of sentences? Backwards is everything. Yoda talk it is!


created: 2006-06-10 15:52:25
subject: <b>good/funny</b>
body:
EXCEPT<br />Leia can't use the Force. Where'd you get that one from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If life gives you lemons, squeeze the juice into a water gun and shoot other people in the eyes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-10 21:19:12
subject: <b>Re: good/funny</b>
body:
Yes, Leia <i>can</i> use the force, she just isn't trained.  Go watch Return of the Jedi agian.  Obi Wan and Luke both say it straight out as I recall.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-14 07:39:47
subject: <b>Re:good/funny</b>
body:
And Leia does begin Jedi training after Return of the Jedi - her Force portential is as strong as Luke's. just an addition from a Star Wars geek. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-07-23 13:02:59
subject: <b>FYI</b>
body:
Tuskan Raiders are on Tatooine not Endor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The world must be dealt with as it is, not as you wish it would be.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> are so better than wetlanders</font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-30 12:40:37
subject: <b>ha</b>
body:
two slight things, the comment about Narg being Jar Jar made me fall out of my chair....next my only issue with the theory is comparing the Two Rivers people to blaster fodder...but ya....and actually how officers in  the Imperial army dress vary greatly.<br /><br />in the Imperial Fleet, its greyish. In Combat they dont really look all that different....but regardless they probably dress however they have to to survive...


created: 2009-01-16 20:25:11
subject: <b>You forgot Palpatine...</b>
body:
I agree with all of this but you left one out: Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine, who is none other than the child Amyrlin...Egwene. She's just as power mongering, just as manipulative, and just as nasty!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lilltempest <img src="images/personalsmilies/40549.gif" /><br />President and founder of the Egweenie Roasters Club<br />Proud member of the Order of Cadsuane Haters<br />Leader of the search for Nynaeve's spine<br />Proud member of Rand's support group  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-27 02:07:32
subject: <b>Mat/R2D2 and Moiraine/Yoda</b>
body:
You forgot Mat/R2D2's propensity for foul language, and Moiraine/Yoda's height(or lack thereof).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 02:17:38
subject: <b>Interesting and plausible</b>
body:
Very interesting theory, in my opinion.  <br /><br />Recent events make me pretty sure that Rand no longer trusts Taim, so I doubt he would go there unprotected.<br />- The failed attack on Rand at Carhein<br />- Taim putting some good Asha'man on the traitors list ie. Damer Flinn<br />- Like you mentioned, the information that Taim is planning something that Rand won't like<br /><br />However, I don't think there is any evidence that Rand suspects him of being a darkfriend, and we have seen Rand be over trusting/overconfident, even while being paranoid.  I agree that it is possible that Rand could be captured like you say.  If not captured, I can seen Rands posse arriving at the black tower and a huge battle occurring when Taim and his 100 try to take Rand.  The problem with that version is the Dream of Logain stepping over a &quot;paper puppet&quot; of Rand before taking control of the Black Tower.  Taim would need to have been impersonating Rand before he is confronted for this to make sense.<br /><br />Overall, interesting theory, this does a good job of pulling together the different dreams and hints about the fates of Logain, Taim, and Rand.  I voted yes.


created: 2006-02-14 03:08:47
subject: <b>It's a good theory...</b>
body:
However I prefer too think that Logain mounting the black stone after the funeral pyre means that he will be leading the Black tower after Rand's faked death. I think however you are right in that Taim means to inpersonate Rand. <br />Could this be the second time Perrin needs to be there for Rand? Will he and Logain come after him together?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 06:36:03
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
While I of course agree that Taim is a DF and furthermore believe that he is under Moridin's or at least SH's control, I don't think that Taim would still pose as Rand.<br /><br />Taim has established himself as the &quot;M'hael&quot; and built up his own power base at the BT. <br />His fancy clothes, his palace, his throne are all regalia of his absolute authority there.<br />Therefore I don't see what the Shadow would gain if Taim would disguise himself as Rand at this point of the series, i.e. take on Rand's identity. <br /><br />It would at least create as much terror &amp; chaos in Randland if the tale is spread that Rand is dead and that Taim will succeed him, especially if Taim's faction avow themselves openly to the DO then.<br /><br />If the Shadow really had the plan to use Taim as &quot;the Dragon&quot; in the past, it vanished after Rand became world-famous as the Dragon Reborn. <br />Therefore I don't agree that it was foreshadowed that Taim will <i> impersonate </i> Rand. <br /><br />The conflict will rather be that Taim will openly dispute Rand's leadership soon (or maybe after Rand's faked death). <br />This will lead to a breaking of the BT.<br /><br />I believe that probably Logain will confront &amp; kill Taim at TG. In my opinion, Logain will take Rand's place, after Rand fakes his death. <br />That fits better with Egwene's Dream of Logain and Min's viewings of enormous glory.<br /><br />Finally I also doubt that Rand will let himself be captured <i> yet again </i> so soon before TG. <br />There were already enough captures in the series... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-02-14 08:41:40
subject: <b>Not Bad, but I disagree</b>
body:
IMO your putting too much stock in an early DF plot which either failed or which may have been a complete fabrication.<br />That plot no longer seems plausible this far into the series.<br />Rand does not travel alone any longer, he has his posse w/ him, and for your theory to happen, his posse would have to be taken out as well, which I don't argue is impossible, but you would have to lose many very important characters.<br />I also think your misinterpreting the dream regarding Logain stepping over &quot;Rand&quot; onto the black stone.  There is no evidence this IS Rand, only that the body looks like Rand, and upon closer inspection of the face (to determine if it is Rand)he falls apart like a papper puppet.  IMO this IS Taim, he IS the papper puppet, and he will fall to Logain.  It's also not clear to me that this showdown has to occur at the BT.  It could be that the black stone merely symbolizes Taim's base of power, ie: BT.  At some point, either before, during or after TG, Logain will rise up/defeat Taim, assuming leadership of AM.  It would seem that following TG, Rand will be out of the picture, leaving Logain to assume full glory as one of the heads of the new &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; order, which will inlcude both men/women.  That is of course, assuming the OP will still be around, as some think it will disappear with the end of this age.  <br />So, right or wrong, those are some of my thoughts regarding this issue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 09:42:58
subject: <b>Very good theory!</b>
body:
And rather original as well. I like the idea a lot, however, I would place very low odds on this happening. Is it possible - yes, but I just don't see it happening.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 10:56:07
subject: <b>Likely to happen</b>
body:
A good theory with supported research. It did seem to radiate 'duh' to me, but that was how I expected Logain to gain glory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 12:47:21
subject: <b>Narishma possibilities</b>
body:
Assuming Narishma is He-Who-Must-Follow-After because of his taking Callandor...<br /><br />Well, for one thing, fame and glory are fleeting.  Logain may attain tremendous glory for leading the Faithful during the Kinstrife...oops, I mean leading the 'good' Ashaman against the 'bad' Ashaman.  Killing Taim the Pretender, helping save the world, going down in history as a Very Important Person.  This doesn't necessarily guarantee a long life.  A glorious life, but not a long one.<br /><br />IMO, Rand will die either literally or metaphorically (the Moridin body-merge theory).  <br /><br />Sooo, what may happen is that Logain will do some serious world-saving.  But die in the process.  Narishma will eventually succeed as the leader of the Black Tower, when the time comes to make real lasting peace with the White Tower.  <br /><br />But I really have no clue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 15:31:30
subject: <b>Its a Good Theory</b>
body:
We all know that Taim is not a LightFriend, hell, its the same guy we thought was ol' Demandred for how many years?  We at least know he is a Dark Friend, a rather important one I think, the last thing we heard from him was &quot;let the Lord of Choas rule&quot; makes him a servant of the Shadow and gives a clue of his ranking in their order...<br /><br />&quot;Let the Lord of Choas Rule&quot; was one...a part of a song from the fourth age that was heard in Great Arvalon...<br /><br />Two...it was something the Dark One himself told his Forsaken...Save to say the DO Didn't invite all of his follows to hear such so Taim is ether some kind of new Forsaken, or should I say Chosen, A high DreadLord or has close ties to Moridin, the others I think wouldn't care to much to repeat the Lord of Choas speech, its more Ishy's style to respect such a term.<br /><br />I think it's safe to bet that Taim and Logain will come to blows in the next book, and the Breaking of the Black Tower will begin.  But I don't think Taim himself will take on the role of Rand, not his style, he wants HIS name to be associated with his power, he wants people to know that he is in charge, that hes in control.  SO with Egwene's dream, I think it more means that Logain will be the one to defeat Taim, and Logain will be the one leading the Black Tower to TG.<br /><br />As for Narishma, for some reason I think Logain will gain much glory at the Final Battle, but I think he will fall and Narishma will be the one to unify the Black and White Tower.


created: 2006-02-14 18:08:56
subject: <b>wowzers</b>
body:
This theory actually fits in quite well with what I beleive will happen. I don't know if the battle will actually be AT the Black Tower, however I like this theory.<br />What I was just thinking of...if Rand gets captured in this fashion, I imagine that Logain will come to the rescue VERY quickly. Also, because Rand's posse know how to invert their weaves now, they will be able to run amok in there doing thier thing without the captive AS knowing. BUT, what I was getting to, eventually, is where does Cadsuane come into this? Will she come with Logain, help save the day, THEN teach the BT that 'something'...like &quot;You were all under the influence of a DF!&quot;?? Or will she be there with Rand because she 'wants to see this so-called Black Tower'...and bad things ensue? Interesting to find out...


created: 2006-02-14 18:24:47
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
The black ajah plot to impersonate Rand is not to be (and out of date). Taim is his own man, and Rand is WAY too well-known. All the asha'men know him, kings and nobles as well, his face was in the sky at Falme- no way Taim can pull off Rand. Also, another kidnapping? Please, no. Then, Rand's got his hands full with Semirhage right now. No, I think Logain will fight Taim, but Rand will be absent at this fight. As for the puppet and the pyre- I believe in the body-switch theory, and I think that Logain will be recognized as the survivor of TG (Rand goes into peaceful obscurity).<br /><br />Finally, we last see Taim allowing Elaida's AS to bond asha'men. Since Rand already allowed Egwene's AS to balance the number of those bonded, I think this will be the powder keg that leads to the RENDING of the black tower (sorry, but renting kind of annoyed me). I think this is too much for Taim to be going around making plots to engage AS and asha'men, getting Rand mad and sending Logain to fix things (for some reason, Rand doesn't like going to the black tower- he stays away from his troops and gives Taim more power to work against him), that I can't see Taim as impersonating Rand in there, too.


created: 2006-02-15 07:47:26
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
well there's one thing thats not been mentioned here, and has been else where I think. Don't the black Ajah have an oath not to reveal any information about the black Ajah? The one who told the girls about the Taim plot hadn't been stilled, so it can't be a true plot BY THE BLACK AJAH. Doesn't mean it isn't a forsaken thing though.


created: 2006-02-15 13:59:14
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
But I don't think it will happen. It don't think RJ will let Rand be captured again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 11:06:11
subject: <b>One little note</b>
body:
I like this theory a lot. It's very close to what I thought was going to happen...except for one little note.<br /><br />I think, instead of it literally being Rand, dead on the ground, the paper puppet is more metaphorical. Logain says that Taim's Asha'man &quot;serve the M'Hael, not you.&quot; The Dragons on his sleeves, his refusal to wear the pins, and his history as a False Dragon highly indicate that he's 'becoming' the Dragon Reborn to the BT. Basically, I think he's already a Randpuppet, because he's taken great pains to resemble Rand, but demands obedience to himself.<br /><br />In summation, I don't think there'll be need for the Mask of Mirrors, just that Taim is acting more and more like he is Rand already. It's a Dream, it needs interpretting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Besides, this is a WoT theory. In an Age, historians will think &quot;Jeez, you mean to tell me there were TWO guys walking around in black suits without the pins, with Dragons on their wrists, leading the Black Tower? I think they were probably the same guy.&quot;


created: 2006-02-19 00:40:32
subject: <b>Elaida's Foretelling</b>
body:
Would't put to much stock in Elaida's fore telling.  First of all you'll notice that she gave it plainly, not in the normal style of prophecy, where you can't understand it until it happens.  Second Alviarin never tells her what she said, yet Elaida thinks about how it guarenteed her success- you don't hear what you Foretell.  Third, it is exactly what Elaida wants.  Seems like Elaida is at least somewhat mad and &quot;foretells&quot; what she wants to happen.  She is familiar with how the Foretelling feels, so her subconsious adds those sensations to the &quot;foretelling&quot; she unknowingly invents.


created: 2006-02-22 13:14:06
subject: <b>Here's my dime</b>
body:
First off, to all the people who claim that Taim <i>can't</i> impersonate Rand, due to Rand's fame and well known face, are you forgetting that you can change your appearance with the Power? Right down to your voice. And why doesn't it seem plausible this far into the series? Because there've been too many captures already? I can only think of four off hand, and only one of them involves Rand. It seems very plausible, indeed, likely that Foxhead's take on things will come to pass. Probably not <i>exactly</i> as described, but something very similar.<br /><br />Ah yes, and to Malkier3: Elaida's Foretelling was indeed genuine. If you'll remember from the Eye of the World, when Elaida first sets eyes on Rand, she has a Foretelling and speaks quite plainly, with no need to have anyone repeat it for her. Only Nicola speaks in riddles and CRS(can't remember sh!t). And as a side note, it may <i>seem</i> to be exactly what Elaida wants, but I guarantee it won't happen the way she thinks. You'll notice she says the Dragon Reborn will face the <b>Amyrlin Seat</b> and know her anger, not &quot;The Dragon Reborn shall stand before me and know my wrath&quot; or something like that. So the Black Tower's gonna get smashed up a bit, well what do you expect? You've got hundreds of men constantly channelling, and it's a power base. Mark my words, there <u><b>will</b></u> be a battle there. &quot;Sisters shall walk it's grounds&quot;? They already do. And as for the &quot;White Tower whole and stronger than ever&quot;, well this should be (ahem) &quot;intuitively obvious to the most casual of readers&quot; that this isn't going to happen while Elaida's in charge.<br /><br />And one last thing. &quot;The Black Tower rent in blood and fire.&quot; For those of you who don't know, the word &quot;rent&quot; in this context is the past tense of &quot;rend&quot;. i bore a hole is the exception here, he already knew this. I'm sure others did too, but I feel kinda bad for the poor, semi-literate people who visit here. Well, no I don't, I need something to laugh at, and I've already gone through all the Humourous theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-01 13:22:41
subject: <b>an additional point...</b>
body:
logain will probably recognize that a Masked of Mirrors taim is not rand because logain can see ta'veren.  Thus, he should be able to figure out fairly quickly that this isn't Rand.   Just a point that will polish up that part of the theory.<br /><br />On seeing ta'veren: Remember in lord of chaos, logain explains that he once saw a man who he knew would cause more trouble than he ever would, and that he could not help but laugh?  This was referring to logain's parade through caemlyn in eye of the world.


created: 2006-03-11 15:41:51
subject: <b>Just a minor grammar nitpick...</b>
body:
Rent, in this case, as in: &quot;The Black Tower shall be rent in blood and fire.&quot; is the past tense form of the word rend.  Rending is like tearing apart, breaking, destroying, whatever you like.  It's also a very cool word.  <br />Thank you very much.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-01 19:33:18
subject: <b>You're forgetting the Wheel</b>
body:
Remember waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when Rand declared himself the Dragon Reborn? IIRC, it was Moiraine who said that the Wheel would allow no more false Dragons to pop up after he made that declaration--and remember what happened at the moment when Rand declared himself: Taim fell off of his horse by &quot;some fluke of chance&quot;.<br /><br />The Wheel will not allow Taim to impersonate Rand. That's pretty much the only thing it will do, but you can be sure of that.<br /><br />The rest of your theory is sound, however: the conflict between Taim and Rand is sure to come soon. Your theory does a good job of dealing with it and Logain.<br /><br />I myself, however, do not believe that Taim is a Darkfriend--there's just too much evidence against him for my comfort. I don't doubt that he and his Asha'man are power-hungry, however. Perhaps he plans to pull a Padan Fain and replace the Dark One once Rand disposes of him. I dunno, but the Darkfriend thing doesn't sit well with me.


created: 2006-05-02 02:31:26
subject: <b>Logain's Glory</b>
body:
Really, this late in the game I ask myself if Rand is even going to deal with Taim Personally.  <br /><br />I see a side-plot opening up between Logain and Taim...  and it's logains overtaking of the black tower that will bring him the glory.. <br /><br />Somehow, I also see the dual civil war thing going on here.  you have the White tower in a civil war, and the black tower will similarly be in a civil war.  After the wars are over (and hopefully the rebels winning in both cases), there could be a union between towers due to this.  Not only that, but because it was the rebel tower that healed Logain in the first place... would ease a friendship between the two.. and make the Aes Sedai hole once more... with males and females in different Ajahs and working together.  (Of course this isn't magically going to happen overnight.. not when you have so many Red sisters and others who just won't trust male channelers for some time.)<br /><br />On a random side note.. i feel Rand my hand over Mr sword that is not a sword to Logain...since he has the coden'cal.. and really doesn't need it as much.  Not that this is a solid theory, just i think it would be a solid idea.. as logain+Collandor&gt;Taim without<br /><br />This all has to happen before the last battle, as the white tower (unless i misremember) still holds the horn of Valere, which mat has to blow before the last battle...  So somehow, the band of the red hand has to get to the white tower... or at least mat does... to get the horn.  <br /><br />But to solidify Logain's Glory... i believe it won't come from taking down the Rebel DF black tower... it will come from Logain taking a position of power over the NEW Aes Sedai...  Maybe alongside Egwene, or as the new leader of the Black Tower that makes the truce with the white tower.  Since Rand is probably going to die (as a lot of prophecy points to), it will be Logain that will be the premier male channeler after Taim and Rand have passed...  leading him to Glory in the future.  <br /><br />could be just talking random stuff...  but... it makes sense to me...


created: 2006-05-24 18:49:54
subject: <b>Dark Ashaman eh?</b>
body:
Just wondering where you got the name Dark Ashaman and whether it was the same place I got my name.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Suravye ninto manshima taishiite<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  ~Dark Ashaman~  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-08 23:59:39
subject: <b>Like a paper puppet</b>
body:
Many people believe rand will fake his death to everyone, at some time or another, i believe that is what the &quot;paper puppet&quot; is supposed to mean. Heck maybe they will  use inverted disguise weaves to make taim look like rand and that's  how he will imitate rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud Libertarian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> You spin me right round baby right round <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence is false.<br />Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.<br />-Henrik Tikkanen</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-14 10:30:08
subject: <b>Very interesting theory...</b>
body:
I do like what you've come up with here.  It's far more interesting and plausible than the other theories I've heard on this topic.<br /><br />Some thoughts of my own on this, if I may?<br /><br />1. From Elaida's Foretelling it would support your theory in that Logain's Asha'man and their bonded Aes Sedai would be the mentioned 'sisters walk it's grounds'.  <br /><br />2. I feel the image of Logain stepping over the 'puppet' Rand's body onto the adressing platform shows his becoming the M'hael of the Black tower and bringing it as fully as possible behind Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">.<br /><br />Never underestimate the power of carefully worded nonsense.<br /><br />.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-22 01:40:41
subject: <b>The Wheel and False Dragons</b>
body:
For: Goaswerfraiejen<br /><br />You said<br /><br /><b>&quot;Remember waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when Rand declared himself the Dragon Reborn? IIRC, it was Moiraine who said that the Wheel would allow no more false Dragons to pop up after he made that declaration--and remember what happened at the moment when Rand declared himself: Taim fell off of his horse by &quot;some fluke of chance&quot;.<br /><br />The Wheel will not allow Taim to impersonate Rand. That's pretty much the only thing it will do, but you can be sure of that.&quot;</b><br /><br />The wheel will not allow any additional <i><b>false</b></i> dragons. If Taim impersonates Rand he will not be declaring that he is the Dragon.


created: 2007-06-13 01:42:49
subject: <b>Why would he bother</b>
body:
Why would Taim bother to impersonate Rand and get himself killed, if he is that dumb he would have been dead already. And one more thing I see Logain's glory is his death, because he is an annoying character that should be killed by Taim, Yeah thats right. If Logain is so cool why isn't he the leader of BT?


created: 2006-02-16 09:22:28
subject: <b>good theory...</b>
body:
hmm...my thoughts:<br /><br />-first, when Cyndane travels to SL, she is north of the beacon, so her thoughts about 'south' are relative to the spot she travelled to. Translation: she could have travelled from anywhere.<br /><br />-good point about diction: he wasn't from Illian<br /><br />-Perrin having a beard when he was in Cairhen made it fashionable for people there to have beards. <br /><br />-Saldea is the one country we know of where full beards are common, but as you say, there are beards in all lands.<br /><br />-no mention of Murandy? It could easily have been related to gaining control/using the army King Roedran has massed in Lugard.<br /><br /><br />In the end, I still think that the death of this noble is somehow related to the siege in Caemlyn. I agree that it wasn't a death from the palace, but it's very possible that a search for deaths of nobles of great families of Caemlyn may turn up this dead DF. The stone floor is a good catch, but this can certainly refer to a nobles private estates as well. The evidence in KOD points to Sylvain being Cyndane in disguise, so I think this is the place to look for the dead noble.<br /><br /><br />Anyway, good summary - I hadn't really considered Cairhen before, though I still find it to be unlikely. The attempt on Dobraine's life in COT doesn't bring any mention or thoughts of important deaths in the palace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 12:22:00
subject:
<b>It's my 30th theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Therefore it had to be somewhat longer. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To kcf,<br /><br /><b> -first, when Cyndane travels to SL, she is north of the beacon, so her thoughts about 'south' are relative to the spot she travelled to. Translation: she could have travelled from anywhere. </b><br /><br />Aah, I dimly remember that someone posted a map of the Cleansing battle at the WoT MB a while back, but I just can't find it...<br />That might help in this discussion.<br /><br /><b> no mention of Murandy? It could easily have been related to gaining control/using the army King Roedran has massed in Lugard. <br /><br />In the end, I still think that the death of this noble is somehow related to the siege in Caemlyn. I agree that it wasn't a death from the palace, but it's very possible that a search for deaths of nobles of great families of Caemlyn may turn up this dead DF. The stone floor is a good catch, but this can certainly refer to a nobles private estates as well. The evidence in KOD points to Sylvain being Cyndane in disguise, so I think this is the place to look for the dead noble. </b><br /><br />As I said in the theory, it's clear from her thoughts that Cyndane didn't act on Moridin's orders in this scene.<br />It was her own personal plot, she even feared Moridin might kill her if he learns about it.<br /><br />But since she is one of the mindtrapped Forsaken, she has little freedom. <br />Therefore I believe that Cyndane hasn't the time to plot something big in Murandy or Caemlyn on her own (if she is there, she is there on Moridin's orders). <br /><br />If Cyndane manages to do something on her own, she uses this little freedom to achieve something that is in her most personal interest, like Moghedien tried to kill Nynaeve in ACoS.<br />In Cyndane's case, Rand is of course her greatest interest and certainly also the Choedan Kal access keys (it might help her to overpower Moridin and get her freedom back).<br /><br />Thus I conclude that Cyndane's action had to do with Rand, and that the meeting must be at a place Rand often visits.<br /><br /><b> Anyway, good summary - I hadn't really considered Cairhen before, though I still find it to be unlikely. The attempt on Dobraine's life in COT doesn't bring any mention or thoughts of important deaths in the palace. </b><br /><br />I addressed that in the theory. <br /><br />The attack on Dobraine happened before the Cleansing, i.e. the prologue of CoT is before WH, ch.35, in the timeline.<br />And there aren't other scenes in Cairhien after that.<br /><br />That would explain why we haven't heard of the dead man yet.


created: 2006-02-16 12:27:58
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
Nice one Etzel.<br /><br />I'll comment in details later.<br /><br />I totally stand with kcf in the debate on Cyndane's location.  In WH it was written so that we have no clue where she Travelled from. She Travelled to the North of SL, that's all.<br /><br />For the rest I pretty much enjoyed your reasonning. It's quite possible indeed that Cyndane was up to a little plot of her own in Moridin's back - and that it concerned Rand.<br /><br />I like your candidate for the DF far less though.  I don't think we heard of Cairhienin with a beard, and a noble to boot.  <br /><br />Also, Bertome is described as &quot;square-jawed&quot;.  That's an odd thing to use in a description for a bearded man without mentionning the pointed beard as well, especially since it's not common among Cairhienin nobles.<br /><br />If an important noble had been killed in Cairhien, I think we would know about it from Samitsu or another sister who came to Rand and Cadsuane in KoD.<br /><br />For certain we would have heard if anyone had been beheaded in Caemlyn.<br /><br />For myself I think Cyndane has killed an Andoran noble at his country manor house and the reason she killed him is because he knew her alias (which is Sylvase, IMO) or what she wanted him to do. She was unsure of him and she killed him. I think Moghedien and Cyndane were busy pulling a few strings so that Arymilla's plot for a siege would work. <br /><br />But I like your reasonning that it could have been a scheme about Rand a lot.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 17:30:22
subject: <b>One comment ...</b>
body:
About your hypothesis that Cyndane was up to something Moridin would disapprove of ...<br /><br />The quote you use to draw than conclusion is as follows:<br /><br /><blockquote>The fool babbling at her was an important man as such things were accounted here and now, but she did not have time to make certain of his trustworthiness, and without that, she could not leave him to babble, not when she could feel Moridin's hand caressing the cour'souvra that held her soul.</blockquote><br />I think this quote can be interpreted in two ways.  The first is your interpretation - that Cyndane killed the man because she feared he might betray her to Moridin.  And, the fact that Moridin was caressing her cour'souvra made her acutely aware of what the repercussions would be if that were to happen.<br /><br />But, I think a second interpretation is that Cyndane killed the man because she did not have time to ensure his loyalty.  And, the fact that Moridin was caressing her cour'souvra made her acutely aware of what the repercussions would be if she were to take the time to ensure his loyalty, rather than Travel to SL right away.  If you remove the section &quot;and without that, she could not leave him to babble,&quot; from the quote, then this 2nd interpretation become more apparent.<br /><br />I can't decide which interpretation is correct.  But if the 2nd is, then Cyndane could have been doing something on Moridin's orders.  In which case it likely had nothing to do with Rand (and least not directly).<br /><br />Anyway, food for thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 20:10:46
subject: <b>Good post...and I don't know</b>
body:
Your argument is logical, squeezing an incredible amount out of very little data.  I comment you.<br /><br />I'm not totally convinced, but you certainly opened up new posibilities for insight to me.<br /><br />The objection about Cyndane being able to gate in north of S.L. from any direction is logically correct, but I think ignores the typical way people solve such problems.<br /><br />Cyndane wouldn't want to gate into the MIDDLE of the &quot;Beacon.&quot; Talk about fry her soul!  And she doesn't know the &quot;objective&quot; coordinates of the beacon in relation to topography in that instant.<br /><br />So I think the typical way people would solve this problem would be to gate in in stages.  90 percent of the distant in the first jump. 5 percent in the secind junp, etc.  Even if  Cyndane took risks and made a shrewd estimate of distance, it would obviously behoove her to undershoot rather than overshoot.  Thus I think that one could infer from a preponderance of evidence that Cyndane did indeed gate in from a more northerly direction than a southerly direction.<br /><br />About the identity of the recently executed darkfriend?  I really don't know.  I think Cairhien is more plausible than Caemylin (sp?) because we know a lot more about what has happened in Caemylin.  Therefore an unexplained murder in Cairhien might be more likely not to have come to our attention due to the selectivity of point of views.  <br /><br />I would point out another possibility.  There's that army of Borderlanders a 100 or so miles from Elayne.  I don't trust THEM!  What are their motives?  A Darkfriend among them might be useful to Cyndane in ways that are still mysterious to mere readers.<br /><br />Caviling aside, I applaud what you have achieved with such slender evidence.  Even a reasonable possibility of being correct in this situation (and opening my thoughts to unguessed at possibilities) is to be lauded and merits a thumbs up.


created: 2006-02-16 20:36:02
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
You mention that it could have been a Saldaean, because Saldaeans often wear beards, and because the travelled to the north side of the cleansing hill. You then discount this, seemingly for no apparent reason, except perhaps that Cyndane would most likely be targetting Rand, and Saldaea is a poor choice for that.<br /><br />I think it could very well be Saldaean, and most likely, if it is, then it would be whoever the Queen left in charge (hence the &quot;here and now&quot; comment - normally this person wouldn't be all that powerful, but with the Queen leaving him in charge, he is powerful 'here and now').<br /><br />Besides - I don't recall having seen any Saldaean Darkfriends yet, excluding Black Ajah. Also, Cyndane is not stupid, and knows that Rand will have to at least approach the borderlanders before TG, so it makes sense for her to be laying traps for places he would be visiting.<br /><br />Of course, it could just as easily be any of the other borderland nations, since all of them must have regents to run the country in place of the royalty. The only big difference is that, with Saldaea, the next few in line for the throne are also absent (Zarine/Faile, her parents, etc).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 22:16:52
subject: <b>It's rare for a Cairhienin to have facial hair. I don't think we've seen one</b>
body:
with even a moustache, let alone a longish beard. <br /><br />Having just spent weeks compiling quotes forthe Private Lives and WOT fashion FAQs, I can say that the styles of men's facial hair are distinctive for each nation. Beards are common in Tear, (groomed to a point) Illian (upper lip bare), Arad Doman (point of chin), Saldaea and Kandor (forked).<br /><br />I favour Lanfear gating to Shadar Logoth from the north because it was the direct route and she was in a hurry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 22:45:15
subject: <b>No mention of him...</b>
body:
being Kandori?  They have forked beards as I recall, which should be sufficiently long for her to slice off.  <br /><br />Why couldn't he be someone who may have seen rand while he was messing around with the maps in Kandor?  Or even just a random DF recruiter or an eyes-and-ears for an Aes Sedai?  He could be an important noble, since the Kandori rulers are out searching for Rand.  Also, we know that the Trollocs are setting up for an attack on the borderlands somewhere, and a man on the inside of one of their border fortresses or major cities would be invaluable.  THere's just to many possibilities there.<br /><br />I don't think the guy could have been from Cairhein.  It's almost directly east of Shadar Logoth on the map, no matter the latitude, she would refer to the beacon as &quot;west&quot; not &quot;south&quot; from there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-17 03:28:51
subject: <b>I agree with everything except that it was Bertome</b>
body:
Very well-structured and comprehensive theory. Well done!<br /><br />I have one quibble, though. Bertome's own PoV mentions one of the Asha'man Darkfriends talking to Weiramon Saniago, who most people think is a Darkfriend. Yet Bertome doesn't know what they are, despite the suspicious dialogue between them. The overall tone of Bertome's thoughts (his verbal by-play with his friend, his thoughts on his sister) don't seem like those of a Darkfriend. Granted, this is not hard and fast evidence, but there really is no evidence to convict Bertome of being a Darkfriend, and from what little we know, he doesn't seem like one...innocent until proven guilty...<br /><br />Otherwise, excellent theory!


created: 2006-02-17 04:19:11
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Thanks for all comments!<br /><br />First of all I want to say that the main purpose of this theory is to attempt to give an detailed analysis of the meeting between Cyndane &amp; the man by finding all clues and interpreting them.<br /><br />Even if I'm wrong in my conclusions, maybe some of the points I figured out might activate another one to write a more coherent solution. <br /><br /><br />To DomA,<br /><br /><b> I totally stand with kcf in the debate on Cyndane's location. In WH it was written so that we have no clue where she Travelled from. She Travelled to the North of SL, that's all. </b><br /><br />I think reptile explained very well why the mention of &quot;south&quot; is likely a clue that Cyndane came from a more northerly direction than a southerly direction.<br /><br /><b> I like your candidate for the DF far less though. I don't think we heard of Cairhienin with a beard, and a noble to boot. <br /><br />Also, Bertome is described as &quot;square-jawed&quot;. That's an odd thing to use in a description for a bearded man without mentionning the pointed beard as well, especially since it's not common among Cairhienin nobles. </b><br /><br />Yeah, I admit the case for Bertome is certainly not flawless. Therefore I said he is just my best &quot;guess&quot; at the moment.<br />At least wanted to add this guess with some arguments to my theory.<br /><br /><b> For myself I think Cyndane has killed an Andoran noble at his country manor house and the reason she killed him is because he knew her alias (which is Sylvase, IMO) or what she wanted him to do. She was unsure of him and she killed him. I think Moghedien and Cyndane were busy pulling a few strings so that Arymilla's plot for a siege would work. </b><br /><br />I think if it had to do with the Caemlyn siege, Moridin must have been the reason why Cyndane met the man.<br />But in this case I don't see Cyndane killing an important DF who Moridin needs at the moment. <br /><br />Furthermore, that Cyndane didn't refer to Moridin as her master to substantiate that she is a Chosen and that she fears Moridin's vengeance because of her acion, indicate that she contacted the man on her own without Moridin's knowledge.<br />The best reasons for this are Rand and/or the access keys.<br /><br />Besides, although there are many PoV in Caemlyn (in the city but also among the besiegers) after WH, the death of an important Andoran noble man is never mentioned.<br /><br />That said, I'd really like to read a complete &quot;Cyndavase&quot; (or &quot;Syldane&quot;? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) theory with all hints. There is none at the Theory Post at the moment as far as I know.<br /><br />Wouldn't that be something for you?<br />It's a <i> scandal </i> that there still aren't any of your theories posted on the TP, though you have many brilliant ideas!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To Johan,<br /><br /><b> i just have to commend you. i don't even remember this scene. </b><br /><br />But it is indeed there. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And I believe that RJ didn't just write that fancy beheading scene just for the sake of it, but that it must be plot related somehow, and that it must be possible to figure out the circumstances of the meeting. <br /><br /><br />To Shishka,<br /><br /><b> I think this quote can be interpreted in two ways. The first is your interpretation - that Cyndane killed the man because she feared he might betray her to Moridin. And, the fact that Moridin was caressing her cour'souvra made her acutely aware of what the repercussions would be if that were to happen.<br /><br />But, I think a second interpretation is that Cyndane killed the man because she did not have time to ensure his loyalty. And, the fact that Moridin was caressing her cour'souvra made her acutely aware of what the repercussions would be if she were to take the time to ensure his loyalty, rather than Travel to SL right away. If you remove the section &quot;and without that, she could not leave him to babble,&quot; from the quote, then this 2nd interpretation become more apparent. </b><br /><br />You are right, one can interpret the thought differently if it would just stand alone.<br /><br />But as I already said to DomA, together with the fact that Cyndane never mentioned Moridin to this apparently high-ranking DF, and that she dares to kill him nonetheless, makes it unlikely that Moridin sent her there.<br /><br />Plus, a high-ranking DF certainly doesn't &quot;babble&quot; about Shadow plots to Lightfriends and is loyal enough to the Shadow in general (otherwise he would hardly stand so high or just live anymore). <br /><br />On the other hand, of course he could be forced to tell another Forsaken about it, and considering Cyndane's fear, Moridin is the best choice in my opinion.  <br /><br />Therefore I believe Cyndane acted independently, like Moghedien when she tried to kill Nynaeve. <br /><br /><br />To reptile,<br /><br />Thanks (as said above, to present a different view on this scene is the main purpose of this theory). <br />And a good point about the direction! <br /><br /><b> I would point out another possibility. There's that army of Borderlanders a 100 or so miles from Elayne. I don't trust THEM! What are their motives? A Darkfriend among them might be useful to Cyndane in ways that are still mysterious to mere readers. </b><br /><br />Certainly useful. <br />But the &quot;stone floor&quot; speaks against this possibility, since the Borderlanders camp in an open area. <br /><br /><br />To Aielyn,<br /><br />You suggest Saldaea as location of the meeting, since there weren't DF mentioned yet (though that might rather speak against it). <br />Probably Alviarin sent in TFoH with Memara a BA to Saldaea at least.  <br /><br />Anyway, I think the little freedom Cyndane has, forces her to concentrate on the really important matters during this precious time.<br />From her thoughts and words in WH and KoD we know that Rand is still most important to her.<br /><br />Therefore it makes more sense to me that Cyndane laid a trap or recruited a spy in one of Rand's current strongholds, like the Sun Palace (especially since it's northern of SL).<br /><br /><br />To linda_sedai,<br /><br /><b> Having just spent weeks compiling quotes forthe Private Lives and WOT fashion FAQs, I can say that the styles of men's facial hair are distinctive for each nation. Beards are common in Tear, (groomed to a point) Illian (upper lip bare), Arad Doman (point of chin), Saldaea and Kandor (forked). </b><br /><br />You are certainly right. <br /><br />Still, there are bearded men almost everywhere. <br />Thus I believe your argument can't rule out Cairhien, especially since the arguments pro Sun Palace (Rand's stronghold, north of SL, no PoV there since CoT, prologue, etc. ) prevail, IMO. <br /><br /><br />To Alydar,<br /><br /><b> Why couldn't he be someone who may have seen rand while he was messing around with the maps in Kandor? Or even just a random DF recruiter or an eyes-and-ears for an Aes Sedai? He could be an important noble, since the Kandori rulers are out searching for Rand. Also, we know that the Trollocs are setting up for an attack on the borderlands somewhere, and a man on the inside of one of their border fortresses or major cities would be invaluable. THere's just to many possibilities there. </b><br /><br />I mentioned the Borderlands.<br />But I explained above again, why I believe why Cyndane went to one of Rand's strongholds if she acted on her own.<br /><br /><b> I don't think the guy could have been from Cairhein. It's almost directly east of Shadar Logoth on the map, no matter the latitude, she would refer to the beacon as &quot;west&quot; not &quot;south&quot; from there. </b> <br /><br />Cairhien is still somewhat norhern of SL.


created: 2006-02-17 06:40:48
subject: <b>And to proteus2</b>
body:
Thanks for the compliments!<br /><br /><b> I have one quibble, though. Bertome's own PoV mentions one of the Asha'man Darkfriends talking to Weiramon Saniago, who most people think is a Darkfriend. Yet Bertome doesn't know what they are, despite the suspicious dialogue between them. The overall tone of Bertome's thoughts (his verbal by-play with his friend, his thoughts on his sister) don't seem like those of a Darkfriend. Granted, this is not hard and fast evidence, but there really is no evidence to convict Bertome of being a Darkfriend, and from what little we know, he doesn't seem like one...innocent until proven guilty... </b><br /><br />You probably haven't read (or don't argee with) my theory named &quot;The Darkfriend High Lord of Tear&quot;. <br /><br />I explain there why I don't think that Weiramon is the DF Tairen High Lord, but believe that it's more likely Tedosian.<br />Consequently, I also don't agree that the DAM Gedwyn &amp; Weiramon were discussing some Shadow's plot in PoD.<br /><br />But besides that, as I said above I'm not absolutely sold on Bertome being the bearded man myself. <br />It's rather a suggestion for the reader, although I think some quite good arguments speak for my idea.


created: 2006-02-17 06:53:46
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
&quot;You suggest Saldaea as location of the meeting, since there weren't DF mentioned yet (though that might rather speak against it). <br />Probably Alviarin sent in TFoH with Memara a BA to Saldaea at least. &quot;<br /><br />I did mention that I was excluding the BA from the list. They are a special case, as their 'fake' loyalty is to the WT more than to any nation. I didn't actually say that it was the lack of known DFs that made me think it was Saldaea, but that it was an extra point that I felt supported my view.<br /><br />&quot;Anyway, I think the little freedom Cyndane has, forces her to concentrate on the really important matters during this precious time.<br />From her thoughts and words in WH and KoD we know that Rand is still most important to her.&quot;<br /><br />And Cyndane's desire to catch Rand would mean that she would be laying traps all over the place, so that one of them would eventually trigger. As I said, Cyndane is not stupid, she knows what Rand has to do before the Last Battle, and is almost certainly laying traps based on that, rather than on where he had been before.<br /><br />She has only so much freedom, which also supports my view - she has been using her freedom whenever she could get it, and surely she has laid some other traps before this one. Surely she would have started with places that Rand frequents, thereby making the best use of her time. With those traps not being triggered, she would now be laying them in many other places, where he would logically have to go in the future.<br /><br />&quot;Therefore it makes more sense to me that Cyndane laid a trap or recruited a spy in one of Rand's current strongholds, like the Sun Palace (especially since it's northern of SL).&quot;<br /><br />Surely any sufficiently powerful noble of Cairhien would know that Rand had (as far as most knew) not visited for some time - since the Dark Asha'man attack, IIRC. Cyndane no doubt knows this already, and so a spy in Cairhien would not be sufficient for her - she would have spies in many places, all ready to send some sort of message (maybe similar to Alviarin's Mesaana-calling bo<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> if Rand turns up, so she can catch him.<br /><br />But then, none of this rules out Cairhien, either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-17 07:28:48
subject: <b>To Aielyn again</b>
body:
<b> I did mention that I was excluding the BA from the list. They are a special case, as their 'fake' loyalty is to the WT more than to any nation. I didn't actually say that it was the lack of known DFs that made me think it was Saldaea, but that it was an extra point that I felt supported my view.  </b><br /><br />I thought you meant that we don't know of DF <i> in </i> Saldaea. Therefore I mentioned Memara at least.<br />A Saldean DF we know was Kadere for example.<br /><br />But I don't think that this point helps very much because the DF Social in TGH makes clear that there are DF everywhere.<br /><br /><b> And Cyndane's desire to catch Rand would mean that she would be laying traps all over the place, so that one of them would eventually trigger. As I said, Cyndane is not stupid, she knows what Rand has to do before the Last Battle, and is almost certainly laying traps based on that, rather than on where he had been before. </b><br /><br />I don't think that the Forsaken can deduce where Rand is at a certain time from the Prophecies, as you seem to imply here.<br />The Prophecies are too general and ambiguous for such an attempt.<br /><br />Thus it makes more sense to have eyes &amp; ears at places Rand regulary frequents. <br /><br /><b> She has only so much freedom, which also supports my view - she has been using her freedom whenever she could get it, and surely she has laid some other traps before this one. Surely she would have started with places that Rand frequents, thereby making the best use of her time. With those traps not being triggered, she would now be laying them in many other places, where he would logically have to go in the future. </b><br /><br />Cyndane's fear that Moridin might learn of her plan indicates that she has to be very careful. <br />That means she can't contact &amp; recruit DF almost <i> everywhere </i>, just for the slight hope that Rand might visit this place at any time in the future, but she has to select and then concentrate on Rand's strongholds.<br /><br />Since Rand never was in Saldaea for a long time and has no official support there, it would make little sense for Cyndane to use an important DF in Saldaea for her plot.<br /><br /><b> Surely any sufficiently powerful noble of Cairhien would know that Rand had (as far as most knew) not visited for some time - since the Dark Asha'man attack, IIRC. Cyndane no doubt knows this already, and so a spy in Cairhien would not be sufficient for her - she would have spies in many places, all ready to send some sort of message (maybe similar to Alviarin's Mesaana-calling bo if Rand turns up, so she can catch him. </b><br /><br />We only get a direct glimpse on Cyndane's plot in this single scene in WH, ch.35. <br />It's possible that she recruited a few other DF in other important places, like Tear or Illian, before.<br /><br />Furthermore, it's possible that Cyndane just recently learned of this important DF from Moridin, maybe because she was involved in the sending of the Seal thieves to Dobraine a few days before.


created: 2006-02-17 09:33:04
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
While I do not agree with your conclusions, it is one of the best theories I have seen in a while.  I tend to agree with KCF and DomA, she has killed a minor Andoran Noble.  The person is considered important in the here and now meaning he would not be considered important in the AoL, but a noble in what is now Andor, he is.  Cyndane thinks that Rand has bedded Avi, so it makes sense that she would consider that he would come back to her location.  This is as good a reason as him visiting his power base in Cairhein.  I have no logic for it other than it seems that passions drive Cyndane (Lanfear) and she would ascribe that same drive to others.<br /><br />Great theory though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-19 15:27:21
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I don't think there is any evidence that your gateway remains in proportion to your origin. She could have been south of the beacon and arrived to the north of it, and turned around. Or vice versa. I think it's inaccurate to portray it otherwise.<br /><br />Good theory, though. I agree<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 03:02:51
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Very nicely done, but I have one or two contentions.<br /><br />1. I don't believe fire or lightning will work. If the gholam is protected like Mat's medallion protects him, then it might work, just like Rahvin's lightning killed Mat. I don't think it will though because it would be one of the first defenses against gholam, which Aginor clearly foresaw.<br /><br />2. I don't agree that it will die from starvation. Surely the stasis box isn't an absolute preservation box. He must have lain dormant for some time.<br /><br />3. I also disagree that he would obey orders absolutely. Jordan implies that they were some of the more difficult Shadowspawn to command. Graendal nearly had a fatal experience with one. I think they aren't as obedient as the other creatures.<br /><br />4. I believe that Osan'gar sent the gholam to kill Herid Fel. He overheard Rand mumble about Fel and his ideas to clean saidin.<br /><br />5. I don't agree with the Graendal story. I think the gholam is still on his original mission to kill Mat. There is no reason to believe that he would seek out one of the other Chosen if Sammael died.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 03:40:13
subject: <b>Some good explanations</b>
body:
With some I agree, with others rather not.<br /><br />Even if it's rather an academical point, I don't think that the gholam is immune against the TP. <br /><br />It's a different power than the OP, and there is no reason to believe that Aginor could make the gholam or wanted him to be immune against this.<br />Since the Chosen's TP mark is the reason why the gholam can be forced to do something, I believe the TP could also harm him. <br /><br />I also assume that it's possible that a big and hot enough fire, a lightning or explosives could destroy it.<br /><br />If you are right and Sammael's gholam was the one on Cairhien in LoC (which seems very likely), then one wonders if Sammael originally wanted to use it to kill Rand, but then Rand was captured of course.<br /><br />Sammael thinks in LoC, ch.6: <br />&quot;Al'Thor would be dealt with. Directly or indirectly&quot;. <br />Plus, we know that he must have found the stasis box in the beginning of LoC.<br />Of course such a plan to kill Rand directly had been quite delicate, considering the DO's newest orders in LoC.<br /><br />Maybe the Shadow learned of the threat through Herid Fel &amp; about Sammael's new pet at that time. <br />Thus Sammael was ordered (by SH?) to sent his gholam to deal with Fel and then to remove it, because of the threat for Rand's life, from Cairhien.<br />Because normally I think Sammael hadn't bothered much about what a man like Fel considers.<br /><br />I agree that <i> if </i> of the other Forsaken became the gholam's new master it's most likely Graendal.<br /><br />But I indeed believe it's even more likely that the gholam has no master at all at the moment, although he still has to accomplish Sammael's order.<br />Otherwise the promised showdown between Mat &amp; the gholam would hardly happen.<br /><br />Furthermore, RJ said in a Tor Q&amp;A that the gholam has a flaw concerning his obediance of Forsaken orders.<br /><br />In my view that flaw is that if the gholam is ordered once by a certain Forsaken, he has to fulfill this order, unless the same master releases him. The gholam is quasi blocked for other orders at the moment.<br />Thus other Forsaken can't order the gholam as long as the task is not accomplished.<br /><br />That would also explain why Graendal almost died in an encounter with a gholam, though one should think that she could simply order him to stay away.<br /><br />Anyway, though I disagree with some parts, it was an interesting reading and therefore thumbs up!


created: 2006-02-20 05:42:12
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Most of this theory is pretty good, but I don't think that it won't kill Mat if given the chance...as others have said in the past, they are very difficult to control (apparently)...and I may have missed it in an old theory or quote, but what makes you think that Noal is/was under the command of Grendal?


created: 2006-02-20 12:37:45
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
Very nice theory. However, I think that the Gholam is still after Mat. Whether ordered to follow Mat by Graendel or still following Sammael's old orders I don't think that the Gholam will pass up a chance to kill Mat. The Gholam killed Tylin, and I'm guessing that it only did that to find out which way Mat is going. So therefore it can't be going to Graendel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 12:52:57
subject: <b>I agree with everything but Graendal</b>
body:
If the Gholam was sent to kill Mat and the girls by Sammael, his attacks prove nothing except that he is still under Sammael's orders.  For all we know, the Gholam is still chasing either him or the girls (which I think is more plausible, it knows Mat can hurt it).  There's no need for Granedal to come into the equation.  <br /><br />I think that the idea of the Gholam starving to death is a good one.  We've seen that it's pretty nearly impossible to contain it.  If the girls found a way to contain it indefinitely, say, in a box of air which it couldn't escape, it could very well starve to death.  We've seen a parallel between the amulet and the Gholam, they both prevent the effects of the power, and so the weaknesses of the amulet may be the weaknesses of the Gholam.  Mat cannot be touched BY the power, but can be hit by things thrown by the power.  In a similar way, the Gholam cannot be affected by the power, but is likely affected by things the power can do, like trapping him in a box of air.  <br /><br />Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 13:33:56
subject: <b>I'm not sure they'd trap it in a box of air...</b>
body:
If the Gholam touched the boundries of the box, then wouldn't the weaves disappear? <br /><br />Throwing stuff at it won't work either, since it has no bones are organs to be damaged.<br /><br />I wonder... Would balefire kill a Gholam?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 16:45:12
subject: <b>Balefire? I'm skeptical</b>
body:
This is just my take, but I really don't think balefire would do it.  Alivia seems to have a similar ter'angreal, recall her battle with Cyndane at the cleansing, during which Cyndane tried to light her up and failed.  The weave touched her and came apart and I don't see why balefire would be very different.  I am similarly skeptical about the box of air becuase I would impagine the same thing would happen.  You might be able to encase it in metal or rock as long as you were using the actual substance rather than something made with the power.  I actually don't think Mat will kill it with the medallion, he'll simply stay alive long enough to recognize it and let an AS or ASH send it through a deathgate (those were pretty cool weren't they) I think RJ may have introduced them for the specific purpose of killing the invulnerable gholam.  He could have made up something equally powerful but less suggestive to deal with the Trolloc Army in KOD.  Then again, it puts Rand's little Waygate plan in a new perspective.  I'm disappointed in myself for never putting 2 and 2 together about the reasons Trollocs always traveled the Ways instead of by gateway.  Gateways seemed like a much easier and more effective transport mechanism, so I always thought Rand's plan was stupid.  Turns out I was the dumb one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-20 18:13:23
subject: <b>I thought the same thing</b>
body:
I always wondered why the Forsaken never dropped a few thousand trollocs on Rand's head with the help of a gateway. Now, thanks to the deathgates I know why.<br /><br />It just seems anticlamatic that the Gholam will be killed so easily with a deathgate. I don't know what else could kill it though, if balefire doesn't work. I got the impression that Mat's medallion can't kill it. It hurt the Gholam, but I don't think that it is enough to kill the Gholam. <br /><br />Using earth it must be possible to pile a mountain on top of the Gholam. If you make sure that there are no cracks or holes, then the Gholam will be trapped with no way to escape. Then it will starve to death and die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-21 03:10:27
subject: <b>Balefire won't work</b>
body:
In the same PoV in PoD, ch.2, where the gholam mentions that &quot;it had never encountered anything that could harm it&quot; except for Mat's medallion, the gholam also says that it remembers the War of the Shadow:<br /><br />&quot;There had been a world of war and killing on a huge scale, with weapons that reached across miles, across thousands of miles [...] But the gholam had not changed. It was still the most dangerous weapon of all.&quot;<br /><br />We know that balefire was widely used by the AoL channelers for some time and thus apparently common knowledge during the war. Therefore the gholam was certainly immune against balefire as well. Even if the gholam was invented after the pact not to use balefire anymore, I figure that a channeler who was attacked by a gholam had still tried to use it in life danger, if no other weapon works.<br /><br />In my view the gholam is indeed immune against any OP weave.<br />Consequently I believe that also Deathgates won't work. They would simply be dissolved if they touch the gholam.<br />But since the gholam generally mentions all deadly weapons in the War of the Shadow, it seems also powerful mundane weapons, e.g. explosives, can't harm it.


created: 2006-02-21 12:43:29
subject: <b>the Medallion</b>
body:
Mat's Medallion (or any ter'angreal with the same properties) is the only thing that can hurt it, and I think it can probably kill the gholam as well.  If Mat were able to subdue the Gholam somehow and press the Medallion, say, through the Gholam's neck or something, and therefore behead it, I think that would be its downfall.  I think that in order to kill the gholam, one would need a ter'angreal like Mat's medallion, but in a different, larger, more wieldy shape.  Such as a sword.


created: 2006-02-21 13:47:03
subject: <b>Deathgates</b>
body:
Objection noted about the gateway dissolving when you try to send the gholam through it.  My impression of gateways was that the weave was around the gateway rather than part of it, sort of like a picture frame.  So you might not be able to cut a gholam in half with a gateway like you could a Trolloc, but you could still send it through.  Don't really have anything to back this up though since we don't know the exact nature of gateways.  One problem there might be is that the actual movement of the deathgates could be random. I'd have to check the passage in KOD where they were used, but I didn't get the impression that their movement was actively controlled by the person who made them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-21 15:45:15
subject: <b>how Mat will kill the gholam</b>
body:
will be with the medallion. There was some dream about Mat making a sacrifice and there being two aes sedai involved with some balance scales. I think that Mat, always protecting Elayne and the girls, will save them from the gholam, who will be hunting them. Mat will make his great sacrifice by melting down the medallion (silver can melt), and turning it into buckshot. I think that shotguns were alluded to in the last book. What if Mat shot the gholam with buckshot made from the medallion? I think that would kill it. Mat's sacrifice will be losing his most prized possesion in a medallion that protects him from AS, he will lose his eye as a result of maybe trying to save both AS, and maybe Moiraine gets thown in there somewhere (after the rescue, of course- wow, Mat's got a lot to do)


created: 2006-02-21 19:03:42
subject: <b>passing through a Gateway</b>
body:
In support of LogainReborn's comments above, I have viewed the Gholam to have the same protections and limitations as is extended to Mat in regards to the effects of the OP. If so, since Mat can move through a Gateway whilst wearing the foxhead medallion then so too can the Gholam move (or be moved) through a Gateway.<br /><br />Let's view the following (staged) scenario in a Seedy Bar in Ebou Dar:<br /><br />Gholam approaches a Channeller (&quot;Hey babe, you know I'm irresistible ...and I mean that literally&quot; in his best Clark Gable impersonation).<br /><br />Channeller weaves a Gateway behind said Gholam (&quot;I don't think you're my type - you're male for starters&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Gholam ignores rebuff and continues to advance.<br /><br />Channeler pummels the Gholam with heavy objects (tables, chairs, fellow patrons of seedy bar) lifted and propelled by Air (&quot;You could always tr.. Ugh! Oof! Whaaat the..!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Gholam pushed back through Gateway and dies instantly, with frozen look of incredulity on face.<br /><br />Channeller resumes eating peanuts at bar whilst waiting for her &quot;secretary&quot; to join her and tapping her foot to a Kaydee Langue song playing softly in the background.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-21 20:02:26
subject: <b>What about Stedding?</b>
body:
Hey everyone - has anyone considered what would happen to the Gholam if it tried to enter a stedding? After all, Steddings are somewhat like Mat's medallion, too. Perhaps the Gholam cannot survive without the OP, and so it would die upon entering the Stedding, just as losing the OP to Mat's medallion hurt it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-22 22:08:43
subject: <b>On one versus two gholam</b>
body:
I tend to assume there's only one gholam, since we've seen no sign of the hypothetical second gholam since LoC, but according to Steven Cooper's endlessly useful WoT chronology, Herid Fel died just six days before the gholam first appeared in Ebou Dar.  Is six days enough to get a gholam from Cairhien to Caemlyn?  I don't know.  If gholam can't go through gateways, then it would have to go through the Ways; so is there a Waygate near Ebou Dar?


created: 2006-02-22 22:11:12
subject: <b>Oh, and on Osan'gar ordering Fel's death:</b>
body:
Those remarks that Osan'gar overhears aren't made until after Fel is dead.  Fel dies two days after Dumai's Wells, and only about a day after Rand first meets Osan'gar.


created: 2006-02-23 10:12:32
subject: <b>On the idea of killing it...</b>
body:
Even if the act of using a Gateway doesn't kill the Gholam, this might be a decent substitute.  (also - I forget - why do shadowspawn die after Traveling?)<br /><br />Make a gateway and drop him into the ocean.  If Aviendha can make gateways to far off places they've never been, then surely other people can.  Or drop him on the Land of Madmen.  We have no contact from there, so who's to say he'd ever get a ride back?  Sure, he can probably swim... but that's a looong way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-25 05:11:43
subject: <b>a thought</b>
body:
alike powers repel each other (magnetism, electricity etc...)...  Mat's Ter'Angreal is alike to the gholams' inate abilities.... could this have something to do with the power of his ter'angreal against the gholams?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-01 18:43:26
subject: <b>Gholam = golem</b>
body:
If the gholam is similiar to a golem why doesn't Mat just burn the word &quot;DIE&quot; on it's forhead?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 00:39:57
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
One of Cadsune's ornaments has the same characteristics as Mat's ter'angreal. <br /><br />Elyane can make ter'angreal. <br /><br />Aviendha has learned she has the talent for 'reading' ter'angreal to determine its function, and has found a dagger thats makes you invisible to the Dark One's minions and maybe even the Dark One himself.<br /><br />Perhaps there are more possibilities for a Gholham weapon out there.<br /><br />Age


created: 2006-03-19 12:43:25
subject: <b>Gholam Question</b>
body:
In book 7, we learn that only 6 Gholam's were made, three men and three women. Now, it's not as if the Gholam had sexual diffentation and they certainly don't blend in very well even at their most human {The Chosen certainly don't attribute sexual connotation to them, they're all Its to them}. So maybe the even sexual division came as a result of the male Gholam being immune only to saidin and the female Gholam being immune only to saidar?<br /><br />Some suggestive facts:<br /><br />Six Gholam were made because they are extremely dangerous yet Sammael has no problems with his male Gholam but another Gholam almost killed a female Chosen.<br /><br />Moridin was remade with his own personal Stasis box {I wonder if his body also came from the box as it is a little perfect for random odds}. So he knew even back during the War of Power that there would be some things he would want and some things he would need for a future battle, perhaps even a weapon to be used against a male channeler.<br /><br />Moridin only uses the True Power now.<br /><br />Mat's ter'angreal can unmake weaves of saidar but not of saidin, if book 5 was correct. {Osan'gar could have recognized some similarities between Mat's ter'angreal and a Gholam but again, there is nothing definite}. Even in Winter's Heart, only Cyndane's saidar weave was undone by Alivia's ter'angreal, nothing involving saidin.<br /><br />Herid Fel's murderer was described only as a Gholam and no other details were given.<br /><br /><br />Conclusion: There should be at least two Gholam but I would think Moridin would have taken the prudent course and kept one male Gholam and one female Gholam on ice. Just in case he had to fight other Forsaken as well.


created: 2006-03-31 20:04:59
subject: <b>nothingnowhere</b>
body:
Some good ideas, but Mat's ter'angreal unravels saidin weaves as well. Aran'gar as Halima channels at him, but is shocked when his/her weave unravels. I think golam can affect both male and female at once. Sammael was confident because he was the one controlling the golam at the time.


created: 2006-04-27 17:47:27
subject: <b>Creature of the One power--a question of weaves, more than anything else</b>
body:
We know that the Gholam was made of the One Power... so what if he's like the pool of Power at the Eye of the World? That is to say, what if he is the physical manifestation of an otherwise purely metaphysical weave? In that case, the reason that Mat's medallion harms it would be that it disrupts the weaves that compose the Gholam at whichever point it touches it.


created: 2006-07-29 13:48:42
subject: <b>Elayne</b>
body:
Heres a thought, since we know Elayne can make Ter'angreal, Do you think that she would be able to make a sword, or knife or something that would be just like mat medallian? I/m not sure but this might happen. and I don't think you could starve a Gholam because it was in the stasis box for what, 3000 years? Un less he has a VERY big stomach (which he is supposed to have no organs) or hes is in complete stasis, which is like, killing him then bringing him back to life, I think that would be long enuff to starve him. other then that, I have no idea how he would be killed........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You laugh cause I'm different, I laugh because your all the same. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-16 20:39:20
subject: <b>Chop Chop</b>
body:
You can throw things at the gholam right? So why not just thow 20 or so long spinning blades that chop it into little pieces? But then, it might just be like T-1000...


created: 2007-03-09 04:26:41
subject: <b>umm...</b>
body:
not to throw a spanner in the works but...while vampires can be hurt by sunlight, holy water, stakes, garlic, etc throughout the ages, there has never been a connection with them being killed by silver...that's werewolves you're thinking of.


created: 2007-08-08 15:44:00
subject: <b>Snakes and Foxes</b>
body:
As of KoD, we know that Mat's bound for the Tower of Genjei (sp?) to rescue Moiraine and all, right?<br />Well, it's also painfully obvious that the Fox Finn either dredged up or created the Foxhead Medallion to block OP weaves.<br />If the gholam is following Mat as is suggested, then it stands to reason that it won't last long inside the Tower.  The clincher is whether being in the Tower itself will kill it, or an angry Finn will.  The same power that created the Medallion and is anathema to the gholam is the same power held by the Finn.<br />The gholam likely won't last twenty minutes inside the Tower of Genjei.


created: 2007-08-28 01:06:04
subject: <b>elayne is the key</b>
body:
mat is going to meet up with elayne and he will let her study the medallion so that she can create a knife of two with the same properties as the medalion and mat will use those knifes to kill the gholam


created: 2007-11-30 10:52:40
subject: <b>What about using another gholam?</b>
body:
We know that Mat's medallion is the only known object that will harm the gholam.  It is apparent that Mat's medallion and the gholam have many qualities in common.  Ostensibly, each of the five other gholams share these characteristics.  <br /><br />What if one gholam came into contact with and touched another?  Perhaps they would act like Mat's medallion on each other and annihilate one another.  That might be a reason that six were created - with even numbers, they could all be eliminated by pairing them up and pushing them together, if the need arose.


created: 2008-02-24 14:26:10
subject: <b>think mat think fireworks think fire</b>
body:
kk<br />err theorie 1<br />describe the tower of genji  isn't it like a tall MARKLESS tower with NO EXIT <br />err i dont think the gholem spends 2 much time playing snakes and ladders with olver so it wont know about sighns + signals and birgette knows stuff about gholems so won't give the teachings<br /><br />err theorie 2 <br />get the good stuff out of firework powder + get lots of it  throw it down a mine (silver?) and chuck gholem down explosion . . . gholem either will die by fire or will be stuck down a large spherical pot-no lid no escape no blood by living and i dont think it will be able to drink a dead ghost's blood<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> to gholem in a hole


created: 2009-08-16 04:28:58
subject: <b>Mat's Spear</b>
body:
I forget how to spell it, but isn't it possible that this was given to him for an as-of-yet unexplained purpose of killing the Gholam?


created: 2006-02-22 07:13:22
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Just already wanted to say that I really like your ideas and explanations. (and I'm not just trying to be gentle... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) <br />Maybe I can add something else later when I have a bit more time. <br />In any case, nice work!


created: 2006-02-22 15:31:53
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
But I have one point I want to bring up:<br /><br />Even though the Seanchan  have basically 'desolved' their Blight, shouldn't weak points in the Pattern be forming all over the world? Including Seanchan? There are no 'good' Ogier over there to build new Steddings to heal these weak points.<br /><br />Just a thought. Otherwise, I quite like it.


created: 2006-02-22 16:25:46
subject: <b>Weak Points</b>
body:
Thanks for the support so far! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To Deakin, I think that the weak points in the pattern happen very rarely and that the Stedding fill them in naturally. The Ogier probably do not actually make Stedding, but they live in them and help them heal the Pattern. I think that is the case even in Seanchan. Remember that the reason they are not as bound to the Stedding is that they never had a prolonged period of separation from the them. This would mean that they still live in the Stedding most of the time.<br /><br />Perhaps all the Stedding are linked, like a rod or needle that intersects the Pattern at certain points (the Stedding) and that the Thinness was the needle begining to poke through. I think it more likely though, that the needle is threaded where it is needed, rather than arbitrarily so that the Stedding aren't wasted. Lastly, I figure that the Book of Translation basically pulls the needle through and leaves a series of reinforced stitching in place. The Pattern is left stronger, but the Stedding disappear. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-02-22 16:39:21
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
But I have a few problems with it.<br /><br />It is never made clear how the steddings actually form. It is possible that you are right, and that the Ogier can make them, but there is no evidence and it is possible that they form on their own.<br /><br />Also, if the Ogier open the Book of Translation and it takes them and the stedding to a different world, they will be in one of the miror worlds, like those you can access with a portal stone. They would have no way of fighting the DO there, so he would eventually escape and defeat that world. If the DO wins in one world he wins in all.<br /><br />It is possible that he will be trapped and unable to escape, but then how will he be there in the AoL for Meiren to set free?<br /><br />Its an good idea though, and it is very possible that you are on the right track.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-23 04:07:54
subject: <b>Ogier don't make Stedding</b>
body:
At least I don't think they do. I envisioned Stedding more as bubbles in the Pattern that are actually connected via the needle idea I proposed earlier. How they actually form, I have no real idea, but I believe the thinness was the beginning of that process and that Mierin interrupted it. <br /><br />If the Ogier could make Stedding, I think they would have done so during the Breaking. <br /><br />Also, do we know that there are no other worlds that are equally as real, like not just reflections? I would hate to think that the Ogier are just an inferior race bound to inhabit a less real world. I think of them more as moving to an Aelfinn like dimension in which the properties of the Stedding are the rules of the universe.


created: 2006-02-23 17:04:26
subject: <b>Are the Eelfinn part of the pattern?</b>
body:
They have to be, since they are accessable with a ter'angreal that was made by people who are part of the pattern. Therefore the Eelfinn and Aelfinn are also part of the pattern, but in a very remote and not easily accessible world.<br /><br />Personally I don't think that the Ogier are going anywhere. The have become involved in human affairs and it would be a waste if they left now. <br /><br />Stedding are very strange though. Why can't you visit them in Tel'aran'rhiod? However it doesn't say if you can visit Shayol Ghul while in Tel'aran'rhiod, and I doubt that we will ever learn, since most people try to avoid that place. I think that maybe the stedding have some role to play, but Shoyal Ghul can't be a stedding. I think that you can touch the One Power and True Power there, the only problem is that holding it there would rip you apart because of the DO's presence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-24 12:41:36
subject: <b>Above</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that Shayol Ghoul doesn't exist in TAR.  Don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-24 14:50:18
subject: <b>RJ says the Blight has no reflection in TAR</b>
body:
Good discussion so far. This is my first theory and I am glad it hasn't been totally torn to shreds. Nevertheless, I am tough and I can handle some serious criticisms. So, don't hold back. Maybe Etzel could add those comments that were hinted at? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> THE Etzel should not tease so! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To those who doubt whether Shayol Ghul and the Blight are inaccessible from the World of Dreams, these two quotes are from the FAQ, &quot;From the Creator's Mouth: Plots, Characters and the Wheel Of Time&quot;:<br /><br />&quot;You cannot enter the Blight from Tela'aran'rhiod because it is apart from normal universe and cannot be touched.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You cannot go to Finnland in Tela'aran'rhiod (similar to Stedding).&quot;<br /><br />This second point is interesting, becuase it could mean that there are many worlds that cannot be touched through Dreams, and it is my belief that the Ogier will travel to a world much like the Finn world. Both Ogier and Finn demonstrate a propensity for reading emotion, thought, and a general sort of ability to predict the future. Of course, the Finns are much better, but maybe if they traveled to Randland they would be more on par with the Ogier. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2006-02-24 18:47:55
subject: <b>The Finns</b>
body:
Doesn't someone in one of the books say that is is possible to enter the realm of the Finns from TAR but that it is just much harder to enter that way, and makes it almost impossible to leave the land of the Finns?<br /><br />I'm not sure, but I think that there is a quote in one of the books saying that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-25 10:41:44
subject: <b>Re: The Finns</b>
body:
Isn't that when Perrin is chasing Slayer and he runs into Birgitte at the ToG? <br /><br />She tells him that to enter the ToG in TAR means it's near impossible to get out, or something along those lines...IIRC<br /><br />In fact: TSR: Chpt 28:<br /><br />&quot;Once entered, the TOG is hard enough to leave in teh world of men.   Here is is all but impossible.&quot;<br /><br />This was Birgitte speaking to Perrin.<br /><br />Seems to contradict RJ's quote a few posts above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-28 17:40:42
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
Of course we are assuming here that the tower of gengi enters into Finnland and not somewhere else that you then enter finnland from...


created: 2006-03-02 00:12:15
subject: <b>Excellent job</b>
body:
Although there is not sufficient information available yet to make this more than educated speculation, I think you have done an excellent job taking the information available and coming up with an innovative perspective on the fabric of the WoT universe.  I loved it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Way to go!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace is only found through victory, and fools aspire to peace and freedom without cost.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-11 15:24:52
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
These ideas help me with a few of my own.  I had always thought that the bore was not really any kind of hole, but rather a gateway in the most literal sense.  The kind of gateway bored by a man, a hole drilled through the pattern.  I think the weave is still there, held open somehow.  But anyway, I love the idea that the thinness of the pattern was a proto-Stedding.  If drawing on the One Power in vast amounts over large periods of time causes damage to the pattern, then the idea that steddings form in reaction to this makes sense.  If you don't mind, read my theory on the bore and such, I only have one, so it shouldn't be hard to find. (can't remember it's name right now).  Maybe we could collaborate on a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-24 23:11:28
subject: <b>Ogier can't leave</b>
body:
Rand's visions in Rhuidien (sic?) gave us a great deal of information about the pre-War of Shadow period. Three groups were needed to grow all the crops.<br /><br />1) What would eventually become the fractured Tinkers/Aiel<br />2) The Ogier<br />3) The &quot;Green Men&quot;<br /><br />Each had a part to play. If I remember correctly the Ogier did the planting, etc., the Green Men boosted the crops growth to harvest stage on the spot and the proto-Aiel did the harvesting. All this occureed while all three groups sang a multi-part harmony. This is the &quot;Lost Song&quot; the Tinkers are searching for. They'll find it when they meet Ogier (The Song of Growing). <br /><br />So, Ogier can't leave the world. They're seminal to the cycle of planting/growth/harvest all of which centers around the common Song ritual.


created: 2006-04-05 13:38:47
subject: <b>Up there</b>
body:
But with the song lost, the Nym gone, and Ogier hiding in their stedding planting and harvesting can continue. They are not a required part of it, but simply have discovered ways to improve the act of planting. Sort of like how plants grow without our aid, but we`ve created fertilizers, pest repellants, etc.<br /><br />And I only have one real issue with your theory. Just a small point. I love the theory over all, but the shadow spawn were created with the one power, not the true power.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-23 21:23:03
subject: <b>Rand and the Steddings</b>
body:
I could aggree with this theory under certain conditions.<br /><br />1: I don't think the Ogier actually make the steddings. I don't believe they remember how or are not powerful enough to do so. Why?<br /><br />2: Does anybody remember the Green Man or as Loial refered to him as Big Brother. They were the Nym and the Green man was the last of his kind. He had been alive for over 3000 years too.<br /><br />3: When Rand went to Rhuidean and walked back in time through the eyes of his ancestors, one of his visions was of a group of humans singing the 'seeding'. This involved the Ogier, the Nym and the Aiel. <br /><br />4: The Traveling People are looking for the song.<br /><br />It's my theory that Rand (in Moridin's body) will teach the Traveling people and the Orier the song necessary for a Stedding, but it takes a Nym to weave it into something usefull. But where to find a Nym? That is the question.<br /><br />If it takes a stedding to heal the bore, then a Nym is necessary to accomplish it. Or maybe that's what the Bokk of Translation will accomplish. That part I can't figure out.


created: 2008-09-22 08:10:23
subject: <b>yeah...</b>
body:
as loial states 'the stedding makes the ogier, not the ogier the stedding' it could be possible that the ogier are the result of humans living away from the one power (changed from humans to ogier late 1st to early 2nd age?) if this is so then just getting ogier to live over the siteof the bore (conviently located inside a live volcano, i might add) won't do anything. i dont agree with your 'healing stedding' idea in general (not that it isnt an inspired idea). ive always thought of the stedding as dead zones in the weave of the pattern, which is why they survived the breaking and cannot be channeled in. if the pattern is made of and powered by the one power, why would channeling weaken the pattern?<br /><br />secondly in response to another comment, im pretty sure that the ogier have already tried to teach the traveling people the treesongs; they are not The Song, as each part of the song witnessed by rand in his Rhudien visions was different for the three species present; nym, ogier and human. my guess is the song will only be recovered when the aiel and the tinkers overcome their differences; the tinkers will relearn the songs through the rhudiean terangreals (knowledge from nothing time paradox stuff).


created: 2009-01-25 14:51:35
subject: <b>Good Links</b>
body:
This links very well with the tuatha'an, i don't believe that RJ would put in any useless people - even the tremalking folk had their watching over the mega'sa'angreal. RJ's spent too long repeating the 'i hope we find the bleeding song soon' for it to be wholely unimportant and this ties it in very well. Good job


created: 2006-02-22 06:16:10
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
Vrey intriguing. I've always wondered about the lack of balancing dot, but then again could it be the ones who are bonded?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mourn if you must, but mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-22 15:13:54
subject: <b>Doubt it</b>
body:
I just think that RJ left these dots out to prevent these complications from entering the story. Nice try though, good theorising


created: 2006-02-22 15:39:53
subject: <b>I don't know.</b>
body:
The whole good/bad diety thing wreaks of futility to me.  Then again, maybe that's why I'm no Taoist.  Everything is meaningless then, moreso than it already is if time is meant to continually cycle ad infinitum.  That would irritate me if the series &quot;ended&quot; like that.  But perhaps that's just my personal struggle with the outcome of the series.  I'd like at least some finality or resolution... for the characters at least.  Perhaps Moridin being burnt out of the patten or something.. who knows.  Something to satisfy fans that have been reading for 11 books now and want to know that it was leading to more than another so-so turning of the ages ahead.<br /><br />That's not an insult to your theory.  Just a statement that it would bother me if it were true.  Sorry for slightly venting in your comment feedback.<br /><br />A well-written and thought over theory even if I don't buy most of it.  (or perhaps, just don't want to)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-22 15:42:34
subject: <b>Umm</b>
body:
I have to agree with Rahvinspawn. The dots have been left out simply to avoid this kind of thought.<br />I do have a theory (that I am NOT writing up, someone else can do that) that the &quot;Dark One&quot; is a split of the &quot;Creator&quot;. What I mean, the Dark One and Creator were once whole, but something (maybe their own actions) split them into 2 seperate entities. The 'Creator', seeing the evil intent of destroying the Wheel, where as he only wanted to keep the Wheel made, without maintaining it, sealed the 'Dark One' away so he could not undo their combined work.<br /><br />Anyway, I have gone off on a tangent. Nice theory, but I disagree.


created: 2006-02-22 17:26:32
subject: <b>Very interesting idea</b>
body:
I don't really like the idea of &quot;Darkstrangers&quot;. I think that Verin and Moridin act that way, because that's just the way ther are.<br /><br />However the Creator having two sides is very interesting, and I like it, though I doubt that that is what will happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-23 15:31:01
subject: <b>Good Theory, but I disagree</b>
body:
This theory has a lot of good research, with logical conclusions, and for that I voted yes. It is nice to see how RJ makes connections to real life myths. However, I prefer other theories because to me it seems odd that if the DO and Creator split and balance each other, why is the Creator more powerful than the DO? Anyway, good job on the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-23 16:47:57
subject: <b>Misandry!</b>
body:
Would you think that the good part of the deity was female if it had been the female AS in the age of legends who were brave enough to attempt to seal the bore?  And they had left an &quot;open port&quot; into the female half of the source, rather then into the male half?


created: 2006-02-24 18:03:50
subject: <b>Fain</b>
body:
WOuld that make fain Vishnu (the preserver)?<br /><br />I like it.....the early jewish/christan traditon belived in two equally powerful gods on good one evil.....it makes sense.....with all the dualality in WOT it seems obsurd to belive RJ would not apply it to the two most powerful dieties in the wheel of time.


created: 2006-02-25 17:03:27
subject: <b>Not Possible</b>
body:
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here that makes the theory bunk.<br /><br />Namely, 'Yang', the masculine force, is the force of sun and light.<br /><br />Ying, the feminine force, is the force of the moon and darkness.<br /><br />So you have them completely backwards.  Yang is active, Ying is passive; Yang is bright, Ying is Dark; Yang is creative, Ying is destructive/receptive.<br /><br />Unless you feel that the DO is the active, bright, creative, 'good' force, and the Creator is the dark, passive, destructive force, it simply doesn't work.


created: 2006-03-01 18:14:42
subject: <b>they're not gods...</b>
body:
Well I'm not sure if I totally buy the darkstrangers thing but verin did say something once about not reading about battles in history because they don't matter. Oh and count_oz the good and bad gods from Judaism you mentioned... you got it a bit wrong. they aren't gods. You're talking about yetzer hatov and yetzer harah right? the closest translation of yetzer is inclination not god and the idea is that each human being is born with a good inclination and a bad inclination and we choose which to follow which determines if we are good or bad in our lives.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-24 07:17:50
subject: <b>The Symbol, The True Power</b>
body:
Yes, the ancient symbol is the Yin/Yan, not inspired by it, but actually IT, as Jordan's world is one in which time is cyclical, and indeed we either come before or after (or both?) the time in which WoT takes place.<br /><br />But the dark and light halves aren't related to the Creator, they're related to the Pattern; it's stated many times that the pattern is niether good nor evil, but a balance between the two (the most poinient of which was when Moraine was explaining that to Perrin when they were chasing Rand to Tear).<br /><br />That being said, the evil, or black, part of the symbol is the Dark One, the good, or white, part is the Light (The Creator). The symbol itself represents the balance of the Pattern. The split after the War of Power, where the white half became the flame of Tar Valon, the black the Dragon's Fang, was human error; the fact that it was called the Dragon's Fang and considered evil should be contradiction enough to prove how fallable perceptions where since the War of Power.<br /><br />The Dragon is, obviously, the Creator's Avatar on earth. The Creator cannot take a direct hand; the Dark One shouldn't have been able to, either, except for Lanfear boring into his hidey-hole.<br /><br />So the True Power is not good or evil. If direct access to the Creator was possible, it could be drawn from that source, too, the Yin of the Pattern. But since only the Dark One can touch the world directly and vice-versa, the only path to the True Power is through him, through the accessible Yang of the Pattern.<br /><br />Does it make a difference where it's drawn from? Lanfear seemed to know the Dark One's &quot;prison&quot; was a new source of the Power, but didn't get a sense of good or evil. This leads me to believe that the True Power is both good and evil, like the Pattern, like the true source, only drawn directly from either the evil or the good part of the two opposing forces that turn the Wheel. <br /><br />It would be interesting if Rand ended up tapping the True Power from the Creator and having white saa crossing his eyes, wouldn't it?


created: 2006-03-26 07:45:57
subject: <b>Post this theory as &quot;How does Moridin think&quot; and I'll agree.</b>
body:
I think you've really figured it out philosophically, which would fit Ishy's POV.<br /><br />But you posted it as &quot;This is how it is&quot; and I don't agree.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-06 22:09:23
subject: <b>balance</b>
body:
When considering a question like this, dominant/passive, male/female, creative/destructive, I think we should consider the ascendancy of saidar during this Age.  Clearly, saidar has been the ascendant power for the Age.  Saidin has rarely been used for three thousand years, and by only a small number of people (dreadlords, Ishamael, Madmen, unlucky saps and false dragons, etc).  When the female Aes Sedai in the Hall of Servants made the Fateful Concord, they effectively consigned their male partners to an Age of obscurity.  My main idea is that in turnings of the Wheel, it is entirely likely that another Age has seen an ascendancy of saidin.<br /><br />So when we talk about the yin/yang, we might consider the possibility that the Pattern has several shapes: balance between light/dark and male/female, ascendancy of light and balanced M/F (such as the AoL).  I do not think that the 3rd Age is seeing ascendancy of light, and definitely not asc. of the dark--perhaps this is in many ways a balance between the two.  Thinking about it, we see that neither side has total victories and they are always struggling with each other.  Light and dark aren't living in harmony, but is that  the kind of balance we would expect from them?


created: 2007-07-02 02:11:14
subject: <b>maybe....</b>
body:
Hey this is a little bit sketchy, but its definitely got something.<br />I found this while making sure a theory I'm currently working on hasn't already been done, and it follows the same basic outline, but is more specific<br />Great work though.<br />Ignore the Majority-they don't know what they are talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-18 09:10:33
subject: <b>My Recurring Metaphysical Thoughts Concerning The Creator &amp; DO</b>
body:
I have to add some support to ID)oyle on this subject. Just like the turnings of the wheel of time, i keep coming to this same thought and conclusion, and i'd like to share it here. We know the universe in Randland is a multiverse, with worlds for each and every possibility and eventuality. To illustrate this, imagine the parallel universes in the multiverse as parallel lines IIIIIII. One for each world. Now, for every possible choice and outcome there should be a universe right? We see this in Randland when Rand transports himself, Hurin and Loial through the portal stone to the world where they meet Selene. That is an example of a world in a parallel universe. We know that in that world the DO and his minions won out. We also know that there is the &quot;one&quot; universe in which we can safely say is the &quot;real&quot; world, the one that the DO wants to remake in his own image. Ok, so here's the brainteazer that keeps getting me. Why, if the Creator and DO are in a epic battle through minions/avatars or whatever, does is &quot;seem&quot; as if the Creator doesn't care? Please note, i say &quot;seem&quot;, coz my thinking is that the Creator is one smart dude, and he sure didn't leave things to chance, he plays smart, i think he doesn't need to worry over the DO taking over the show. Here's why.<br /><br />If there are worlds for all possibilities, then ultimately there must be 2 worlds at both ends of the spectrum. One in which absolutely everything went the DO's way, and one where absolutely everything goes the Creator<br />s way. What if the Creator made that one &quot;real&quot; world, this one where everything factors to his &quot;champions'&quot; needs. We all know that the wheel weaves all chances and decisions into the pattern long before, does it not seem possible that this one world is Rand's Land. <br /><br />Hopin this makes sense to some of you out there.


created: 2006-02-26 19:12:21
subject: <b>Well we have seen</b>
body:
Eliadia slap other Aes Sedai before, so she will berrate Egwene and slap her in da face, which leaves Egwene the choice to strike back or not. <br /><br />So, the tower uprises due to the revelation of the 13th depository, meanwhile the ajah heads or sitters call for an execution to try to prevent a full out rebellion. <br /><br />Egwene is wanted dead by one side, the other wants answers and Egwene is the culprit who revealed the news to them. So naturally they will stall the execution, and the other side will deny as best they can the existence of the 13th depository due to their oath.<br /><br />In comes Gawyn to try and save her, meanwhile the Seachan mount their attack.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-26 22:14:54
subject: <b>I don't agree...</b>
body:
Elaida wants Egwene alive, even if the Sitters complain about it, Elaida can easily lay the blame on Siuan, since Siuan was the one who must have revealed that information to Egwene. <br /><br />She wants Egwene alive so she can have some sort of leverage against the rebel Aes Sedai. She knows that the Rebels can just make gateways somewhere and send an army through the whole city. What better way to stop them than having Egwene as hostage?


created: 2006-02-26 22:29:52
subject: <b>Hostage bit is debateable</b>
body:
Some of them care to save and protect her, others would fee she is just a casualty of war. The young ones would feel bad, but thats it. <br /><br />Her group which has sworn to her will try their hardest, the other high ranking AS will just try to avoid punishment themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-27 01:24:11
subject: <b>Treasonous Thoughts</b>
body:
I can agree with the theory.  Egwene had already let loose parts from the depository to one sister inside the tower so naturally, word of mouth will spread.  Regardless of the deep-seated enmity between the Ajahs currently, the word will spread.  It's never made clear if Eladia will be the one to bring the charges of treason against Egwene though since she is only one of the few Aes Sedai that know of the law concerning the 13th depository, it will most likely be her.  My concern is whether Shaidar Haran will set into motion a last ditch plan for Alviarin to save the Black Ajah at the expense of the sitting Amyrlin.  It's already been shown that the Black Ajah can and will dispose of Amyrilns to get what they want.  If Eladia is disposed of, the Hall could take care of matters regarding a certain Amyriln that wears novice white on matters of treason.


created: 2006-02-27 09:41:50
subject: <b>another way...</b>
body:
Somehow Elaida learns of the deal with the Sea Folk, possibly from Duhura (sp? - the AS advisor sent to Elayne), and this is interpreted as treason of some sort. Especially since if the SF AS decide to return to their people, they take the secrets of the WT with them - the SF AS are the keepers of the 13th depository. A very interesting placement for the lone three SF AS.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-27 10:17:47
subject: <b>I don't know</b>
body:
I am not convinced this will be the one thing that forces Elaida's hand.  Elaida cannot control herself any longer.  She has become a drunk and was tainted by Fain to some extent.  I think it is possible that when Egwene comes to serve her, she will just totally lose it.  I am not sure she is aware that Egwene still claims to be the Amyrlin.  Even if Elaida does know, it will be different hearing it from Egwene's mouth.  I think this will be enough to unhinge her.  Elaida could excuse Egwene on a technicality for what she did while with the rebels, but no longer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-27 14:32:30
subject: <b>Egwene wants to force Elaida's hand</b>
body:
I agree with this theory, and I want to go a step further and say that Egwene is now specifically working to bring about a confrontation with Elaida.  I believe that she wants a confrontation with Elaida, but ONLY after she has sown her specific dissent.  The telling  of information from and about the 13th depository is special because it is, as this theory stated, a treasonable offense.  I believe Egwene chose this because her new plan is to force Elaida's hand after the seeds are planted.  It is a dangerous gamble, but the benefit to Egwene, if she succeeds, is that it forces Elaida to deal with Egwene confirming for all that Egwene is more than a silly runaway novice.  This will be the last straw that makes people realise that she is due consideration for better or worse, and I believe that when it comes down to this confrontation enough people will have been long fed up with Elaida and will be looking for a change.


created: 2006-02-27 17:54:06
subject: <b>That's what will happen</b>
body:
I think so, too. Elaida will get mad at Egwene and order her execution. Only Gawyn will learn of it, and plan a rescue attempt. That's when the Seanchan will attack and in all the confusion Gawyn will rescue Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-28 13:32:00
subject: <b>Thought</b>
body:
This is a little off topic, but I think it has some relevance to this subject.<br />First of all, i am sick of Aes Sedai who think they are above any laws, they serve themselves (The Tower), cannot deal with any sort of change, and are extremely biased about most subjects (ex. healing stilling). I think that a major change is due to the white tower. I think this entire rebellion is leading to a major overhaul. The white tower is about to be seriously rocked,perhaps destroyed by the seanchan, and to survive at all,or rebuild it will need to combine with the black tower. Sort of like pre-breaking. Hopefully, after the last battle, Aes Sedai will go back to being servants of all, instead of manipulators of all. I just don't think Egwene is the one to do this, she is already thinking like an Aes Sedai, with the tower above all. I think Logain is going to be the one who forces that change, with Egwene riding secondm, or as an equal (A co Amrylin/Tamrylin?)


created: 2006-02-28 14:21:58
subject: <b>one thought</b>
body:
Good points in the theory.<br /><br />Egwene attending Elaida and the Grey ferret at supper is bound to be interresting and a catalyst for the evolution of this tread in the weave. That is most likely why Jordan didn't continue Egwene's tread from that point on.<br /><br />However, I don't think that Elaida can charge Egwene with Treason. I'm pretty sure only Aes Sedai can be charged with treason. For Elaida to see Egwene as anything other than a Novice or Accepted at best, she would have to accept her as Amrylin. Egwene never passed the test to become Aes Sedai hence, in Elaida's eyes, she cannot be charged with treason.<br /><br />Also, it is said that if the Tower sitters had been called to condemn Egwene for claining to be Amrylin, they would have dragged their feet. How much more now that Egwene has earned the respect of at least 2 sitters.<br /><br />I like all the other points in the theory, but this is a major stumbling block for me.


created: 2006-02-28 18:00:14
subject: <b>one addition</b>
body:
I like all that thoughts that have been expressed so far, but I want to add something about Egwene's revealing information about the 13th depository. If Elaida catches wind of that, she would have to charge Egwene with treason. The sitters, who currently do not really know whether Egwene knows what she is talking about or was just spouting crap, will take this as confirmation that what Egwene said was true. Then, they may very well rise up against Elaida. Elaida is not a complete moron, so she will know this. Thus, she is in a pretty bad situation. If she follows the law, she may be supplanted.


created: 2006-02-28 18:21:03
subject: <b>Nitika it is the spreading of knowledge of the 13th depository</b>
body:
that forces Elaida to see Egwene as an (rebel) Amyrlin. This knowledge can only be known by Aes Sedai of high rank. How can a novice know what an Aes Sedai does not?<br /><br />The knowledge of the existence of secret tower records of its own accord would be enough to have ordinary Aes Sedai rise up. With the things that have happened in Elaida's reign, this will make it certain indeed. And Elaida has been fudging the records to a ridiculous degree which is only going to add fuel to the fire.<br /><br />You bet Elaida and the Hall will want Egwene's head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-03 01:08:13
subject: <b>It just doesn't make sence to me</b>
body:
I see what you are saying: the revelation of the 13th deposotory is treason by virtue of being against tower law. <br /><br />My problem is: treason for whom? If a novice learned of it (by accident or by being told by someone who had legitimate knowledge o it) and told others, would she be guilty of treason? Not in my opinion.<br /><br />It is only a person with legit knowledge (in the eyes of Elaida and the white tower sitters) that can be held resposible. Egwene cannot be said to have come by the knowledge in the right way. To Elaida, she wasn't even a &quot;real&quot; false Amrylin; just a puppet. She learned of it from Siuan. That would be the same as Siuan or a Sitter giving the information to a novice in Elaida's eyes.<br /><br />What you say is possible if the law keeping the 13th depository secret applies to all initiates of the tower. However, everything we know about novices and accepted says that they have to follow certain &quot;rules&quot;, not &quot;laws&quot;. If they break rules, punishment is supposed to be in the hands of the mistress of novices.<br /><br />That said, I agree with you that something important will happen as a result of Egwene attending Elaida in the next book. Also, there is foreshadowing of a life and death battle between Elaida and Egwene in one of the experiences Egwene has going through the test for Accepted. If Egwene goes to the headsman, it will be because of Elaida.


created: 2006-03-03 18:18:51
subject: <b>A good theory, but...</b>
body:
Definitely, the imminent &quot;serving at dinner&quot; will be the final straw.<br /><br />Egwene will claim to be the lawful Amyrlin and Elaida can`t ignore that.<br /><br />It will be that claim that causes the sentence for beheading, and not exposing the 13th Depository (which is Treason).<br /><br />IMO, the exposure of the secret records to the rank-and-file AS  will be what brings Elaida down, along with the Hall.<br /><br />The Ajahs have reached the boiling point with Elaida and her calling for beheading will become the 7th uprising of the White Tower.<br /><br />The new postings in the Ajah quarters ordered by Elaida<br />are going to assure Elaida`s defeat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-04 06:46:29
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
<br />I agree that Egwene's revelations will play some part in her trial for Treason. However I disagree that the Hall will want her head for that. <br />I suspect that by the end of Egwene's POV in KoD, some sitters must have become aware that Egwene has revealed all to the rank-and-file AS. I think Elaida will call for a trial, particularly because of what will transpire when she meets Egwene. She will not, I think publicly say that Egwene was being tried for revealing the secrets.<br />I do believe, however that the Hall will drag its feet, Elaida's new decree playing no small part in that.<br />Elaida may in the end have to decree a beheading, and this will be sopped somehow(Seanchan and Gawyn?)


created: 2006-03-05 04:01:07
subject: <b>Well, when I finish writing the FAQ in AS laws and customs,</b>
body:
you will find that novices and Accepted are expected to follow Tower law. And can be subject to trial for crimes jsut as an Aes Sedai can.<br /><br />In fact, non-initiates of the Tower, even men, can violate Tower law and be tried  and sentenced for it.<br /><br />I notice that those who disagree that Egwene wll have her head on the chopping block  offer no suggestions as to how the dream she had of her own imminent beheading will be fulfilled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-06 19:31:37
subject: <b>MERCIFUL!?!? How dare you imply such!</b>
body:
Elaida failed to fall down and worship Egwene as soon as her Egwene-ness set foot in the Tower!  This is disrespect and abuse and arrogance of the highest order on Elaida's part!  Elaida deserves whatever happens to her for that crime alone!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 19:42:21
subject: <b>theory?</b>
body:
Who know?<br /><br />Maybe Egwene will piss off Elaida so much that Elaida makes a proclamation sending her to the headsman (the Amrylin can proclaim just about anything in theory).<br /><br />But this is such a breach of custom and law, and abuse of power that it finally pushes the Sisters in the Tower to action. They save Egwene and accept her as the true Amrylin.<br /><br />Or maybe that's a bit too dramatic...?<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2006-03-09 16:12:12
subject: <b>We'd need the advice of a Grey Sitter...</b>
body:
That Egwene can be seen as guilty of treason for revealing the existence of the 13th repository and its content would rest on the exact wording of this Law.<br /><br />The problem I see is that she never had access, at any point, to the thirteen repository itself where the secret Law is kept - and thus the Law may not apply to her case. The Law may be worded very pointedly to cover only the sisters who have read the Law - e.g. from the moment they read this Law to the end of their life they are forbidden to ever speak or write etc. <br /><br />Tower legislators are sophisticated - and the penalty for the offense being death they must have been cautious in their wording - no doubt there are provisions too for the people who have been told about the Chronicles by the offender.  Egwene would likely fall in this category, and if discovered I would think the first action would be to swear the person to secrecy and only after would the rest of the Law also apply to her, if she ever speaks again of the secrets, or of having been sworn to secrecy, to anyone else.  <br /><br />It's just too easy to find a loophole otherwise and use the Law to get enemies accused of treason etc.<br /><br />I imagine that when a Sitter is chosen, or an Amyrlin/Keeper selected, she receives a personal visit of a Librarian that presents the Law to this person and explains the protocol to have access to the Archives. There may even be an &quot;oath of office&quot; of some kind to take before having access - so that people with access to the Archives <i>cannot</i> betray the secrets, under the first Oath.<br /><br />I think Elaida, most likely, would take the view that the Sitters/Siuan/Leane are the ones guilty of treason for discussing the Archives with Egwene, not Egwene herself. She may even jubilate to have this new hold over them and telling Egwene that if she doesn't reveal how she knew she'd be responsible for all their deaths. If not Elaida then the Hall may well refuse to sit for a secret treason trial at this point (as this would have to be, of necessity) - because the charges would have to be kept secret and thus this would ruin any chance at reuniting the Tower once it gets out that Egwene has been secretely tried for treason and executed by the Tower Hall or Elaida.<br /><br />With most of the Greens out of the Tower I doubt Adelorna Bastine, to name one who advocated negotiations, would agree to take this risk, and neither would Ferane or Suana. Elaida &quot;I am Tower Law&quot; would have to act unilateraly, and this trial may bring both her deposition by the Hall while the rank-and-file munity..<br /><br />I agree there will be problems over Egwene's revelations (not so fast as you propose - I don't think the Brown she told will act without circumspection at first and make her inquiry in the Library - word won't spread in time for the &quot;dinner&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Leane might be in hot water and questionned by the Hall. Siuan may be in trouble eventually. But I don't think this is what Egwene will be tried for. I think her revelations about the 13th repository will surface and Elaida's inquiry in the issue will show that Egwene is guilty of spreading sedition/fomenting rebellion, no doubt another treasonable offense under Tower Law.  I think she may act unilateraly about it, by choice or because the Hall refuses to sit for the trial and in her anger Elaida will ask for all their chairs.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-09 19:58:40
subject: <b>There has been enough time for the word to spread</b>
body:
about the Depository. It has been seven days since Egwene informed Bennae of the existence of the Depository and its Law.<br /><br />I doubt that an Oath could be taken about not revealing the Depository, because if they are asked directly about it, the oath would conflict with the Oath to speak on untrue word. Such conflicts can cause the sister to die if it is not resolved promptly, and that in itself would give the game away.<br /><br />Revealing the existence of either Law or depository to the rank-and-file is treason. It doesn't matter if Egwene is considered a novice or an Amyrlin or anything in between; she has committed treason. Siuan only told her about it when Egwene was Amyrlin, therefore Siuan did not commit treason because Egwene was entitled to know of it. Siuan did not break the law; Egwene did.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-10 12:36:35
subject: <b>Egwene Wants the Headsman</b>
body:
Since she has been in the tower she has been steadily eroding Elaida's popularity, but almost none of the Tower Aes Sedai would actually accept her as Amyrlin. She has revealed secret knowledge, true. <br /><br />On a side note, we do not even know that what Egwene &quot;knows&quot; about the 13th depository is completely accurate. Before Siuan is stilled she cried out &quot;There has never been open rebellion in the Tower before!&quot; or something like that. She was still bound by the oaths then, but later she contradicts this by telling Egwene of the many forgotten rebellions and splits in the Tower. <br /><br />In any event, Egwene's behavior has been remarkably stoic, strong, and martyr-like. Whatever you might say about her character, you have to give her that. Egwene knows that to truly win the support of her Daughters, she will have to make a martyr of herself. Of course, she has the extra knowledge that Gawyn, or a Seanchan woman (Eaganin?) will probably save her. <br /><br />As for the legal reasons behind her sentencing to the Headsman, since when has Elaida shown any inclination to follow the law to the letter? She thought to make an example of Egwene, but that has clearly backfired. She will order her death because she believes it is the proper sentence for falsely claiming to be Amyrlin, for rebelling, and for revealing things she shouldn't have. Mostly, though, she will order it because she wants to have Egwene out of her mind. <br /><br />Egwene, however will continue on as she has, inspiring wide-spread respect. I do not mean to offend through analogy, but Egwene is a lot like Christ in many ways.<br /><br />LoialT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-03-10 16:58:46
subject: <b>What Siuan said is what has been written in official Tower history</b>
body:
for the rank and file readership. Most of those who were with Elaida when Siuan said this were not Sitters and would not know the truth. Had Siuan been stupid enough to reveal any secret history, it would have been the headsman for her. (It is a slip by RJ, he had not developed this part of the story yet, I guess.)<br /><br />Siuan also intended to frighten Elaida's supporters into withdrawing there support.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-11 15:40:19
subject: <b>Egwene and the ferret</b>
body:
One possibility at the dinner hour I can see happening is Egwene telling the Grey ferret(Duhara?)to aide her, they overcome Elaida, Egwene recovers from the forkroot, and the battle for the WT is on. Of course, just then the Seanchan attack and Egwene and the rebels save the day, re-uniting the Tower just in time for the last battle. Poor Elaida wakes up after her beating, shielded and alone in a cell.(Much deserved).


created: 2006-03-07 06:25:58
subject:
<b>Sorry, but I think you are wrong... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
At the moment the DO messes with the reality and produces more vermin everywhere. That's also the reason why some keepings fail.<br /><br />Furthermore, it can't happen that the True Source runs dry or is destroyed since it's the power that turns the Wheel of Time (except if the DO would win, but that won't happen).<br /><br />I think that probably at the end of the the 6th Age, humankind will be extinct, maybe because a meteoroid hits the world, which results in an Ice Age, or another catastrophe (Thom alludes to that in EotW).<br />Concenquently the OP and how to channel it will be forgotten.<br /><br />Then at some point, the evolution of humankind begins again in the 1st Age. And at the end of this Age, Channeling is discovered again.<br />


created: 2006-03-07 09:26:47
subject: <b>No that is not what's happening.</b>
body:
We know that the one power isn't failing because it is just obvious that all of those things are the dark ones work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 10:38:40
subject: <b>I thought it was just that reality is unravelling</b>
body:
And no, I can't believe I'm posting a response on theory post.  Amy, you drew me in to this ignominious fate.  The weaves which are failing are all TIED WEAVES, first of all, not things which are maintained.  In that respect, I think that the tied weaves are failing because reality is unravelling.  It's no more a sign that the Power is going to be gone than a long-dead village appearing and then sinking into the ground and taking a stupid merchant with it in that very hilarious scene in Knife of Dreams.<br /><br />As for WHY reality is unravelling, my guess was always just that because so much balefire was going to be flying at the Last Battle that the damage to the pattern which will be caused is already reverberating through time, both forward into the future and backward into the past.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 11:38:51
subject: <b>I agree with VoLT</b>
body:
That this is the result of reality wavering.  I don't think the OP will disappear.  Furthermore, VoLT, I really liked that theory about the balefire effects.  Didn't ever think about it.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Me - &quot;So what you're saying is, he's not the brightest crayon in the box.&quot;<br />Joe - &quot;What, does that mean he's a deep chartruese??&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 12:52:46
subject: <b>Balefire at Last Battle</b>
body:
That is a most interesting idea, Voice of Lews Therin. I like it very much, and it seems a very plausible explanation for what is happening. I don't believe that the Power itself is failing, it is too bound up with the turning of the Wheel, but your idea seems to make sense.


created: 2006-03-07 13:32:48
subject: <b>TVOLT</b>
body:
I really like your idea about the balefire. I've been running around in my head about what the meaning of all the balefire meant.. and your idea is the best one yet. <br /><br />As for the &quot;tied weaves&quot; theory - it doesn't fly, not all tied weaves are failing, only the weaves that seem to help the DO. All I'm saying is if it was a reality thing, wouldn't it be more random? <br /><br />amy<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Amy  <br /><br /><i><br /><br />&quot;Oatmeal and raisins, might as well be brown rice and broccoli. Maybe I should have a few more.&quot;</i> ~ Tigr<br /><br /><i> By the way, I miss you too.</i>~KB<br /><br /><b>twangdillo</b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://photobucket.com/wotmaniacs" target="_blank">Wotmaniacs</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 18:39:01
subject: <b>Not at all</b>
body:
The failing wards are just an example of the DOs power. Or perhaps Forsaken interference as they were at both places. But, more than likely, the DOs power.<br /><br />I mean, what the HECK is the point of rediscovering all this new stuff, Elaida building a tower for the Asha'man, and all this other stuff IF the power is just gone at the third age? The Creator isn't that Ironic. <br /><br />And as for Balefire, good theory, but, I strongly believe that also is the DO. RJ has stated that in KoD we should feel like the Light is losing. He went into a long boxing analogy-12th round, the Light is exhausted with one eye swelled shut, the DO is still fresh and throwing hammers, and the Light can only hope to win by a lucky knockout. Its all the DOs doing. Not balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 19:04:25
subject: <b>It's all the DO</b>
body:
The reason why those weaves of the Power are failing is that the DO is touching the world. That the seals are breaking doesn't mean a thing either. The DO is a god, so he can easily do things that humans think are impossible - it doesn't mean that the One Power is failing.<br /><br />Besides, if the One Power fails, then the Wheel of Time will stop turning, so it can't fail.<br /><br />Plus, only tied of weaves are failing. If the One Power itself was failing, then weaves that people are weaving would fail too, but those work fine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-08 03:01:03
subject: <b>Balefire and a Weakening Pattern!</b>
body:
Anyone else remember old Demandred...God I hate that guy and all his clever hideing...<br /><br />Anyhow,  Prolounge to LoC...&quot;WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY  SERVICE, DEMANDRED?&quot;<br /><br />Anyone ever find that odd?  It was never really said was the DO's plan was and it was never touched on as far as we know?  We have a Forsaken out there doing something really important, and it doesn't help that we don't know where or who he is.  <br /><br />So we have tied of weaves weakening, Ghost towns melting into nothingness taking some poor guy with it, the dead showing, Ripples through the pattern that make no sense at all but scare everyone half to death, and changing corridors.  Sounds like the Pattern is weaking to me!<br /><br />Why did they stop using Balefire in the War of Power?  Cause they were afraid the pattern would unravel and time itself would end.  <br /><br />Why the wards are failing is cause everything is failing...the Pattern is shifting and becoming weaker due to Demandred's plan with the DO, the Pattern itself gets weaker, the effects the Ta'vern are less effective, and the world is in choas when &quot;the Day of Return&quot; happens.


created: 2006-03-08 11:22:36
subject: <b>good point troubledfaith</b>
body:
I had forgotten that the D.O. told Demandred to unleash Balefire. With the pattern already in flux, and T.G. coming... It's unlikely anyone will realise that the pattern is unraveling and  not simply being touched by the D.O.<br /><br />


created: 2006-03-08 21:04:45
subject: <b>Weather patterns</b>
body:
I like the point u bringed up troubledfaith, but u made a slight error at the end. <br /><br />&quot;Why the wards are failing is cause everything is failing...the Pattern is shifting and becoming weaker due to Demandred's plan with the DO, the Pattern itself gets weaker, the effects the Ta'vern are less effective, and the world is in choas when &quot;the Day of Return&quot; happens.&quot;<br /><br />The effects of Ta'vern get stronger and stronger as everybook goes by not less effective. We can see this by how every person who has been near Rand, Perrin, or Mat seems to be reapearing later in the series with strange circumstances.<br /><br />Also, as why the pattern might be so afflux is the weather, we know that the DO strained out of his prison to touch the weather, and that Elayne and Nynaeve fixed it with the Bowl of Winds. The Weather righting itself, plus the DO straining from his prison, plus unleashing balefire could account for as why reality is unraveling all throught Randland.


created: 2006-03-08 23:13:15
subject: <b>I don't think Balefire has anything to do with it</b>
body:
All the stuff that's been happenning is because the DO is touching the world. Demandred might be out there somewhere using Balefire, but one person wouldn't be able to affect the Pattern this much. In the War of Power they destroyed entire cities with Balefire. Demandred doesn't have an angreal or a sa'angreal, and he doesn't have anyone to link with, so he ins't powerful to do that kind of damage. The best he can do is burn back someone's thread back about 20 minutes. That wouldn't affect the Pattern, and I doubt if he has balefired hundreds of people, since rumors would have started about people dissapearing. So Demandred's not using Balefire in enough quantities to alter the Pattern. Therefore it is the DO that is causing all the ghosts, and the shifting corridors, and everything else. Stuff like that was bound to happen as the DO's prison became weaker and weaker.<br /><br />P.S. Ta'veren power isn't decreasing. I think that with all the chaos, ta'veren power is increasing. At worst it is staying the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-09 00:24:48
subject: <b>Careful...</b>
body:
Careful with your quotes troubledfaith, the Dark One never once told Demandred to use Balefire, he quite clearly said:<br />&quot;WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?&quot;<br />Clearly the Dark One wants Demandred to Balefire someone as a last resort to stop something horrible happening.<br />My crazy thought: It's not Rand.<br />I think the Dark One wants to keep tabs on someone else, I think it is Moridin. Ishmael, although did lots of good, went completely nuts. Moridin is linked with Rand and so now will probably do something stupid to help Rand out. If this goes too far, the Dark One may order his little hitman to take out Mordin.<br />&lt;/2cents&gt;


created: 2006-03-09 02:04:01
subject: <b>Umm</b>
body:
I could understand that...Then we would have to figure out what the Dark One meant about &quot;now hear who will live and who will die&quot;  Something like that...My brother has my copy of LoC.  I always thought it was a list of who to balefire and when to make their deaths ad there burning threads more damageing to the Pattern.<br /><br />And as a side not.  I don't he DO trust..well..as much as he can trust...Moridin completly, If Rand is the champion of the Creator, Moridin is of the Dark One and always has been.  Remember, has Ishameal, he was his greatest servent and over the past three hundred years when he was partially freed from the Bore every forty years has done more then the rest of the Forsaken combined.  And Ishy was the only one who got close to killing Rand in the beginning and the only one to hound him, Ish didn't exactly fail the DO at the Stone of Tear, he just fell a little short.  If it was any different, he wouldn't of been reborn and made Na'blis*sorry for the spelling* Plus granted again the ability to touch the True Power.


created: 2006-03-09 14:55:53
subject: <b>Ishamael/Moridin = &quot;Head Honcho&quot;</b>
body:
I doubt the DO would want to keep a tab on the Ishamael/Moridin because he trusts him well enough to name him Nae'blis, champion of the shadow, dictator of the everyone other than the DO, and &quot;top dog&quot;. Aside from that, it would be nice to see every arrogant person who can channel be put back in their place with the loss of the source, but it probably isn't going to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-09 19:30:46
subject: <b>1 more reason...</b>
body:
... that I don't believe the power will every be taken away is that every single chaneller in the World will die from the loss of being cut off from the source. Except from those few that can find something else to content themselves with.


created: 2006-03-10 23:47:32
subject: <b>Old information in a new context</b>
body:
Yes, balefire was stopped in the Age of Legends because cities disappeared and the like. But remember that balefire is described as burning the thread into the past, requiring some impromptu reweaving. So, how could cities disappear? It would have to destroy the founder, or someone who closely affected the founder at some point before the founding of the city. Cities don't spring up overnight, and since that piece of information became available to us, we now know that channelers benefit from an extended lifespan that non-channelers do not.<br /><br />By way of sidepoint, when coupled with RJ's description of our grandmotherly Accepted returning to something resembling middle age as she grows in the power, the reverse would seem to be true. This explains the 'suddenly shortened' lifespan of somebody cut off from the source. Coming from somebody who's lived quite a while, finishing off the final 5-25 years of a normal lifespan may well seem short. Especially when the person visibly returns to normalcy. The emotional impact may still be a factor in mortality, but what seems to be a horrific side effect to an Aes Sedai may be unnoticeable to the general public. Our Ebou Dari Innkeeper (I forget the name at the moment) is evidence of that.<br /><br />Back to the topic, balefire is less capable of wreaking havoc since Aes Sedai have used the oath rod. In addition, for the most part they shut themselves in, minimizing their effect on the world. Granted the tower is a &quot;world player,&quot; but no single Aes Sedai has had sufficient impact as to level a city by their death. The runaways perhaps could have some effect if their life brought them in contact with Taveren a long time ago. By the requirements put forth, the only person who undeniably would nearly bring the wheel to a halt with his balefired death would be Ishmael. But depending on his ability to escape his prison, the amount of balefire required to do this would be tremendous. Something along the lines of Calandor-aided balefire, if not stronger. <br /><br />As for the theory, let's not forget the power as good as doesn't exist in steddings and at Shayol Ghul. At some point I would expect channelling to become impossible, be forgotten, or otherwise disappear. In fact, I toyed with the idea of Rand figuring out how to create a worldwide stedding, sheild the world, or make the power inaccessible after sealing the breach as a means of hopefully keeping the bore from being opened, effectively setting the wheel loose from it's repetition. Of course that was books ago, and that doesn't seem likely now.<br /><br />The problems with the power are a result of the DO's tampering, not fluctuations in the existence of the power. I'm surprised I haven't seen a theory that the power IS the creator, and the source IS the DO.


created: 2006-03-14 16:48:52
subject: <b>About the DO quote</b>
body:
&quot;Would you -----&quot; doesn't necessarily mean &quot;Do it&quot;<br /><br />Remember, he also said &quot;DEMANDRED, WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?&quot;<br /><br />And we've all seen what happened to that idea.


created: 2006-03-14 23:19:54
subject: <b>Aye...</b>
body:
But that would seem the perfect way to get him to do it...Offer the man what he desires most and he'll do about anything.


created: 2006-03-29 22:53:40
subject: <b>It's the DO</b>
body:
If you will, notice that all of the wards and weaves that are failing are blocking the DO's minions i.e. crows, rats and magots from spying on the Aes Sedai. So in my opinion the DO or a frosaken is personally undoing the wards.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. - Semisonic</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-04 11:17:41
subject: <b>Failing Wards</b>
body:
The failing wards are simply the black ajah causing confusion and strife in the tower.  In the rest of the world the extra vermin and decay are just symptoms of the DO's impending break through.


created: 2006-06-17 09:19:35
subject: <b>Maybe it's just being blocked off...</b>
body:
It's an interesting idea, but I don't think the Power can completely disappear. It's supposed to be what makes the Wheel turn, after all; so if it disappeared, time would presumably stop.<br /><br />However, if our time is supposed to be at some point on the Wheel then that means that at some point the Power does become unavailable for channeling (unless somebody out there CAN channel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) - whether that's because the human race simply doesn't have the ability at that point, or because something is blocking it, I don't know. Something like that could be happening, I suppose.


created: 2007-03-14 02:46:57
subject: <b>uhh</b>
body:
Where did it say that Ishy was released every 40 years or whatever? I do not remember that..at all...then again I did read in my sleep a few times and not remember anything I read. Did it really say that in the books?<br /><br />P.S. I didn't even know Taim was Demandred or Moridin was Ishamael, heh <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-03-20 21:45:58
subject: <b>Nice theory, but I disagree</b>
body:
You are showing that weaves made recently are beginning to fail. This does not mean that the power itself is failing. The One Power was used to make the world, and as such, if the One Power fails, the world would unravel. What is most likely happening, is that as the Dark One touches the world more and more, he can influence more. It is very possible, that he is trying to disrupt contact with the true source for all channelers. He has done this in the past at Shayol Ghul, and it was not like a shield, it was described as the True Source not being there at all. If he were trying to disrupt the channelers' connections with the True Source on a global level, that may give him the ability to weaken and destroy newer weaves.


created: 2007-12-25 04:22:12
subject: <b>Maybe, but not like that</b>
body:
The thing about the Wheel of Time, is that it returns to a state in time with each turn of the circle.<br /><br />If the DO is about to break free, no problem, so long as the Wheel rolls back around to when he was imprisoned.<br /><br />Enter the thing some dying Aiel said (from the EotW):<br />&quot;Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One. He means to slay the Great Serpent. Warn the People, Lost One. Sightburner comes.&quot;<br /><br />Slay the Great Serpent = kill the wheel of time. He gets out. The wheel doesn't cycle him back in. He breaks out of the loop.<br /><br />I reckon if Randland looses the OP, it'd be because Rand figured out the same thing, and gets the idea to break the loop - so we don't go back to the part where the DO starts getting free again.<br /><br />And to stop the Wheel from turning back he breaks the OP.<br /><br />Thats the only way I can see it happening.


created: 2006-03-07 07:15:18
subject: <b>Good summary</b>
body:
I agree with most of your points.<br />Although there aren't so many new revelations in your theory, you presented Lanfear's motives in a concentrated and orderly manner, which made it an entertaining reading.


created: 2006-03-07 07:31:32
subject: <b>mmm, i didn't vote either</b>
body:
it's a good read and you present the evidence logically, i just find it to be a circumstancial (sp?) and more importantly void as it isn't going to happen<br /><br />otherwise, i agree with the points you make<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 15:25:11
subject: <b>Almost a Theory</b>
body:
This seems to be mainly a statement of facts about the forsaken, since most of the conclusions seem obvious, or simply stated in the books. Of the conclusions there, they are good, but are again mostly obvious. If you take a look at the summary, you see the first point is that Lanfear wanted to rule the world with Rand, which is stated in the books. The next point is that she wanted the Cheoden Kal, which is again stated in the books. The third point has some good conclusions, but it is too bad that it has all already taken place and confirmed this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 15:56:58
subject: <b>Though I risk the fabric of the universe by saying this...</b>
body:
I like your theory, Sidious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-08 12:30:49
subject: <b>sweet.</b>
body:
i was very intrigued by the point you made about moghedien selling her info to graendal.  i love graendal and am firmly convinced that she is up to all sorts of things that nobody suspects and this would tie into her character nicely.  it would also fit moghedien's character well since an assassin should be a good spy too.  <br /><br />i voted me likey for your theory since lanfear really was all about domination.  i am sure that several of the others had a master plan too, but hers is definitely the easiest to reference since we had so much of her perspective.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-08 16:34:54
subject: <b>This could make great fan-fiction</b>
body:
What if Rand turned to the Dark (or rather Lanfear) side?<br /><br />This was very interesting to read. Very plausible statements, and well researched.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-09 18:21:24
subject: <b>Moggy....</b>
body:
Interesting reading, and some good speculation about Moggy's intentions in her meeting with Graendal.<br /><br />Moggy is certainly a wild-card that was next to impossible to make any sense out of her motives, especially early on when we first meet her. For some reason, she was hiding-out in Tanchico, and until she enthralled Nynaeve and Elayne, didn't even know that Rand was LTT reborn. For someone that is reknowned for her spying, this is very strange, IMO. <br /><br />However, it could very well be that once she really started spying on the other Chosen, and saw what plans they were making, she might take the opportunity to sow a little discord and speed up her competitors demise. To that end, I find your speculation about Moggy's meeting with Graendal quite probable.<br /><br />OTOH, what information did she have that she could tell Graendal? Not to trust Lanfear? That she was playing another game? These are obvious things that Graendal would already know about, just like Rahvin knew not to trust Lanfear. <br /><br />The one bit of info we know that Moggy had, was that Rand was going to attack Rahvin in Caemlyn early that morning, and not go after Sammael in Illian, as the &quot;alliance&quot; had hoped. The question is, did any of the others know about it?<br /><br />Rahvin apparently was content to sit in Caemlyn, but, was in fact, prepared for an attack. IIRC, RJ stated that Rahvin's surprised look was <i>not</i> because it was Rand, <i>but</i> because Rand was still alive after the initial lightning attack. Does this mean that Rahvin knew about Rand's plan? No, as that could be reading too much into it. Your own quotes show that Rahvin never trusted Lanfear, and he expected treachery in her plans from the beginning. His defenses were set in place beforehand, and so it doesn't necessarily mean that he was expecting Rand on that particular morning. <br /><br />Also, if this piece of information that Moggy had was to be of any value, it <i>should</i> mean that it <i>was</i> news that wasn't widely known. With Nynaeve capturing Moghedien, Moggy never delivered the information to Graendal, and so it's very likely that she, Sammael and Rahvin were unaware of Rand's plans for that morning. This left Rahvin on his own to face Rand, with no help from his &quot;allies&quot;, just as we saw.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-04 20:47:14
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
Yah, it works, but I don't think Grendeal wanted to kill the strongest women forsaken until sammael is dead.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Elayne: &quot;Egwene, Egwene come quick! Nynaeve's tugged her head off!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-07-20 12:12:08
subject: <b>Great Research &amp; good eye</b>
body:
I love how you showed examples of everythingyou said, but it's too bad that this doesn't countfor much now, controlled by Moridin. :l<br /><br />&quot;Stop sucking your finger, we know you are a pretty little girl; yo do not need to prove it to us.&quot; - Gawyn to Min, tSR.


created: 2006-03-12 02:46:12
subject: <b>Not sure if this is relevant...</b>
body:
But I may have a different twist on who &quot;impersonated Demandred&quot; by sending all the shadowspawn against Rand and co. Who else in the past have we known to command shadowspawn that isn't a Chosen? Padin Fain of course! He sent all the shadowspawn against Edmonds Field, so why not this time? He could also get them through the Ways safely because of his connection to the Black Wind. As I said, don't know if that's really relevant or not, but there's my 2 cents


created: 2006-03-12 12:46:11
subject: <b>*Groans* Not Padan Fain did it again...</b>
body:
Padan wants to kill Rand personally. That's why he kills the two asha'man in PoD. Furthermore, Padan does not have the absolute control that the Chosen have. He can't force them. Fain's powerful, but he isn't as powerful as 100,000 Trollocs and Fades, who would rather face one powerful man rather than the Dragon Reborn. Only a Chosen can *force* them to obey. Padan just scares them into obedience. There's a difference between scaring a few Fades that control a couple hundred Trollocs and 100,000 Shadowspawn. It was a Chosen that sent them, period.<br /><br />But, to the theory (which is what we should be discussing here), excellent. It makes perfect sense and I see absolutely no flaws in it. If you ask me, this little mystery is now solved!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-12 14:25:35
subject: <b>Nice one.</b>
body:
I'm not sure that this changes a whole lot if I believe it, but it would certainly add some irony.  And we know RJ loves his irony.<br /><br />+10 points for making me consider a theory that I was about to dismiss outright. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-13 10:51:05
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Sounds very likely to me. I especially liked the part about the Halima sending the Dark Ashaman after Rand in the WH.  Never knew what to make of that ambiguous statment about Demandred but your explanation makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-13 14:50:03
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
I'm not convinced, but I think the reasoning is sound, and the picture you paint makes sense. I see this as a distinct possibility.<br /><br /><br />However, I do believe that Aran'gar was Slayer's patron. It fits in very well with the third unseen watcher that observes Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne in TAR in WH. One watcher is BA, one is Slayer, and the third remains unseen. The fact that the third makes noise indicates a potential lack of skill in TAR, and Slayer appears to be distracting the wondergirls so the third can escape unnoticed. Aran'gar's thoughts in the Garden indicate that she often observes Egwene's dreams and activities in TAR and that she has not great skill in that area. This additional connection to Slayer adds weight to Aran'gar being Slayer's patron IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-13 16:11:12
subject: <b>Makes sense to me</b>
body:
Kisman's thoughts that Demandred should already know about Taim's orders has always been suspicious. (Besides giving us a link between Demmy and the BT, that is.) Halima's revelation about posing as another Chosen makes your theory very likely, IMO. <br /><br />The questions that remain unanswered are; who posed as Sammael, and, how often do the Chosen masquerade as each other?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-13 16:39:11
subject: <b>Makes sense to me.</b>
body:
I always wondered about Kisman's thoughts about Demandred and Taim, and Aran'gar's PoV was suspicious as well, but I never knew what to make of them. Your theory makes perfect sense and explains a lot to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-13 17:41:34
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
This is flawless, as far as I can tell. And since I can't think of anything else Aran'gar could have menat, I'm inclined to agree. But I have to ask: Eltheriond, have you read KoD lately? That little &quot;Fain did it&quot; think is full of mistakes!


created: 2006-03-14 02:46:29
subject: <b>I have to say...</b>
body:
I agree with kcf. Well-reasoned theory, but Aran'gar being Slayer's patron makes more sense to me.<br /><br />With regard to &quot;Aran'gar's game&quot;, it is possible to interpret her statement differently. Instead of meaning &quot;pretending to be another Forsaken&quot;, it could mean that she thinks &quot;someone else is intentionally going behind Moridin's back, and disobeying the Nae'blis, without his knowledge&quot;.<br /><br />Quote:It doesn&#8217;t make much sense that Aran&#8217;gar simply disguised herself as a man and then created another disguise to conceal just that.<br /><br />When giving Slayer orders in TAR, Aran'gar would have disguised herself for obvious reasons. Hide your identity and disguise your voice as male, and you are automatically off the list of suspects, should Slayer's orders be found out...<br /><br />One other thing: Aran'gar's last thoughts in Ch3 are along the lines of &quot;Moridin is going to be terribly disappointed about al'Thor&quot;. This is in direct reference to Moridin forbidding the other Forsaken to kill Rand. So Aran'gar obviously has plans in place to kill the Dragon Reborn. And what precisely was Slayer doing in WH? Also, Aran'gar doesn't sound very worried about punishment should she manage to get Rand killed. This makes sense, because if Slayer is questioned about his orders, then everyone will think it is one of the male Forsaken...<br /><br />I don't have much to say against your Demandred argument, this seems quite watertight to me. But I still think Aran'gar is Slayers patron. It's possible that she is posing as both...


created: 2006-03-14 04:40:43
subject: <b>Thanks for all your comments!</b>
body:
To Eltheriond,<br /><br /><b> But I may have a different twist on who &quot;impersonated Demandred&quot; by sending all the shadowspawn against Rand and co. Who else in the past have we known to command shadowspawn that isn't a Chosen? Padin Fain of course! He sent all the shadowspawn against Edmonds Field, so why not this time? He could also get them through the Ways safely because of his connection to the Black Wind. As I said, don't know if that's really relevant or not, but there's my 2 cents </b><br /><br />You certainly mean who impersonated Sammael.<br /><br />In my view the theory that it was Fain is hardly supportable. Fain doesn't have the Chosen mark. He also can't disguise himself as someone else, as far as we know.<br />Besides, it was actually Slayer who brought the Shadowspawn to the Two Rivers.<br /><br /><br />To Lord Scimitar,<br /><br />Thanks, and I agree with your remarks on Fain. <br /><br /><br />To nuclearsidewalk,<br /><br /><b> I'm not sure that this changes a whole lot if I believe it, but it would certainly add some irony. And we know RJ loves his irony.<br /><br />+10 points for making me consider a theory that I was about to dismiss outright. </b><br /><br />Thanks!<br />You are right that it doesn't change a lot. But it explains some things in the series better.<br /><br /><br />To LogainReborn,<br /><br /><b> Sounds very likely to me. I especially liked the part about the Halima sending the Dark Ashaman after Rand in the WH. Never knew what to make of that ambiguous statment about Demandred but your explanation makes sense. </b><br /><br />Indeed, Kisman's statement about the discrepancy in Demandred's behaviour was always somewhat strange.<br /><br /> <br />To kcf,<br /><br /><b> I'm not convinced, but I think the reasoning is sound, and the picture you paint makes sense. I see this as a distinct possibility.<br /><br />However, I do believe that Aran'gar was Slayer's patron. It fits in very well with the third unseen watcher that observes Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne in TAR in WH. One watcher is BA, one is Slayer, and the third remains unseen. The fact that the third makes noise indicates a potential lack of skill in TAR, and Slayer appears to be distracting the wondergirls so the third can escape unnoticed. Aran'gar's thoughts in the Garden indicate that she often observes Egwene's dreams and activities in TAR and that she has not great skill in that area. This additional connection to Slayer adds weight to Aran'gar being Slayer's patron IMO. </b><br /><br />Interesting point.<br /><br />However, the BA Temaile who watched them says:<br />&quot;There were others, there,&quot; [...] Spying on our two Accepted. A man who let them see him, and someone else I could not see.&quot;<br /><br />The two Accepted are Elayne and Nynaeve. Therefore the third person could be Egwene, who was there but isn't mentioned by Temaile. <br />It also seems possible that Egwene spied on Nynaeve &amp; Elayne before she revealed herself to them, since when Egwene appears she immediately knows what they were talking about.<br />Maybe Egwene learned to be seen by some people, but remain unseen to others in TAR?<br /><br />Otherwise the third watcher could practically be any Forsaken since we know that they all stalk &amp; spy in TAR.<br /><br />Anyway, I believe the stronger arguments speak for my view that Aran'gar posed as Demandred.<br /><br />It fits exactly with what the Sammael impersonator did, with Demandred's PoV in WH where he seems eager to kill Rand himself, and it explains the discrepancy Kisman noted.<br /><br />Together with Slayer's statement that the patron is unusually carful, while Aran'gar is considered the most reckless Forsaken, I think it makes more sense that Osan'gar was the patron and Aran'gar posed as &quot;Demandred&quot;.<br /><br /><br />To Light in the Night,<br /><br /><b> The questions that remain unanswered are; who posed as Sammael, and, how often do the Chosen masquerade as each other? </b><br /><br />The main theories to the question who impersonated Sammael seem to be that it was either Demandred (suggested by kcf) or Semirhage (suggested by sidious).<br />I tend to agree with sidious.<br /><br />To your second question. Yeah, that there are apparently two incidents when a Forsaken posed as a another one, could give some more credence to your &quot;Longest Theory&quot;.<br /><br />BTW, hope we will get a new theory from you one day in the near future. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To A Deathwatch Guard,<br /><br /><b> I always wondered about Kisman's thoughts about Demandred and Taim, and Aran'gar's PoV was suspicious as well, but I never knew what to make of them. Your theory makes perfect sense and explains a lot to me. </b><br /><br />Indeed, it explains some things in the series which seemed somewhat inconsistent before.<br /><br /><br />To nettles,<br /><br /><b> This is flawless, as far as I can tell. And since I can't think of anything else Aran'gar could have menat, I'm inclined to agree. But I have to ask: Eltheriond, have you read KoD lately? That little &quot;Fain did it&quot; think is full of mistakes! </b><br /><br />Yes, I think as well that Aran'gar's posing must be something what already happened in the series onscreen. Besides Demandred's command to the Dark Asha'man, I don't see any other valid options.<br /><br />And I agree that &quot;Fain did it&quot; is false.<br /><br /><br />To proteus2,<br /><br /><b> With regard to &quot;Aran'gar's game&quot;, it is possible to interpret her statement differently. Instead of meaning &quot;pretending to be another Forsaken&quot;, it could mean that she thinks &quot;someone else is intentionally going behind Moridin's back, and disobeying the Nae'blis, without his knowledge&quot;. <br /><br />When giving Slayer orders in TAR, Aran'gar would have disguised herself for obvious reasons. Hide your identity and disguise your voice as male, and you are automatically off the list of suspects, should Slayer's orders be found out... </b><br /><br />If you read Aran'gar's thoughts in KoD, ch.3, it becomes clear that she actually must mean that she also posed as an other specific Forsaken before.<br /><br />After Demandred stated that it could habe been the real Sammael, Aran'gar considers:<br />&quot;A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She<br />would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.&quot;<br /><br />The &quot;or&quot; in the last sentence shows that Sammael being alive is the opposite to what Aran'gar considered as her &quot;game&quot; before, namely that someone posed as Sammael. <br />Therefore we know that also Aran'gar must have disguised herself as another Forsaken. <br /><br />Slayer's patron doesn't pose as another Forsaken. He only seems to be a disguised male channeler (thus some believe it also might have been Taim).<br /><br /><b> One other thing: Aran'gar's last thoughts in Ch3 are along the lines of &quot;Moridin is going to be terribly disappointed about al'Thor&quot;. This is in direct reference to Moridin forbidding the other Forsaken to kill Rand. So Aran'gar obviously has plans in place to kill the Dragon Reborn. And what precisely was Slayer doing in WH? Also, Aran'gar doesn't sound very worried about punishment should she manage to get Rand killed. This makes sense, because if Slayer is questioned about his orders, then everyone will think it is one of the male Forsaken... </b><br /><br />As I said in my theory, I believe Aran'gar's PoV in KoD shows that she has already a new plan to kill Rand and that it apparently involves Graendal's DF. <br />Thus Graendal is probably blamed if Aran'gar's plan succeeds.<br /><br /><b> I don't have much to say against your Demandred argument, this seems quite watertight to me. But I still think Aran'gar is Slayers patron. It's possible that she is posing as both... </b><br /><br />Well if you agree that the person who ordered the DAS wasn't the real Demandred, I think it's quite obvious that it was Aran'gar. After all, we know that she posed as another Forsaken, and it seems unlikely that yet another Forsaken played that game.  <br /><br />I also don't think it makes so much sense that Aran'gar sent the DAS and then also Slayer in another disguise.


created: 2006-03-14 05:08:13
subject: <b>Very nice theory</b>
body:
Well done Etzel. As usual a first rate theory backed by relevant evidence and impeccable logic. Excellent work. (I voted &quot;yes&quot; btw).


created: 2006-03-14 09:56:31
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Congratulations on a well-thought out theory, Etzel. I have to disagree, however.<br /><br />I have two reasons. Firstly, I don&#8217;t believe that she is masquerading as anyone. It may be that we are looking too deeply into her statement.<br /><br /><i>She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive. </i><br /><br />For the longest time I considered your theory, and the potentials of her statement. However, I now believe that she is merely referring to her disguise as Aran&#8217;gar. She is Balthamel in a woman&#8217;s body. She is a woman who can channel saidin. This makes her completely unique, and even more unique than Osan&#8217;gar and Moridin who are still men despite channeling saidin. Her &#8216;game&#8217; is even referred to later by Narishma who explains that there is a female Forsaken who is channeling saidin. It is the ultimate disguise.<br /><br />I may be wrong. However, if she was really playing a game of disguise, then I believe that Demandred would be the most unlikely Illusion she would assume.<br /><br /><i>Demandred&#8217;s hook-nosed face carried an expression of anger that only made him more striking. Not enough to attract her, of course. He was far too dangerous for that. </i><br /><br />Demandred is just one of those guys that you don&#8217;t mess with. Aran&#8217;gar has no problems initiating a little flirt with Graendal, or thinking fondly of overthrowing Moridin. Yet she dismisses even playing a game with Demandred. He is lethal. In fact, it is the principle reason why I reject the Longest Theory. There are some disguises with I find incongruent. I don&#8217;t think anyone would dare impersonate Lanfear, and in this case I feel the same. Discovery means death in both cases, and none of the Forsaken are risky enough for that. Aran&#8217;gar may have been walking around as Sammael, Osan&#8217;gar or Asmodean for a while, but her own PoV excludes Demandred as an option.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-14 10:47:25
subject: <b>Thanks to mickeydee &amp; sidious</b>
body:
To sidious,<br /><br /><b> I have two reasons. Firstly, I don&#8217;t believe that she is masquerading as anyone. It may be that we are looking too deeply into her statement.<br /><br />She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive. <br /><br />For the longest time I considered your theory, and the potentials of her statement. However, I now believe that she is merely referring to her disguise as Aran&#8217;gar. She is Balthamel in a woman&#8217;s body. She is a woman who can channel saidin. This makes her completely unique, and even more unique than Osan&#8217;gar and Moridin who are still men despite channeling saidin. Her &#8216;game&#8217; is even referred to later by Narishma who explains that there is a female Forsaken who is channeling saidin. It is the ultimate disguise.<br /><br />I may be wrong. However, if she was really playing a game of disguise, then I believe that Demandred would be the most unlikely Illusion she would assume. <br /><br />Demandred&#8217;s hook-nosed face carried an expression of anger that only made him more striking. Not enough to attract her, of course. He was far too dangerous for that. <br /><br />Demandred is just one of those guys that you don&#8217;t mess with. Aran&#8217;gar has no problems initiating a little flirt with Graendal, or thinking fondly of overthrowing Moridin. Yet she dismisses even playing a game with Demandred. He is lethal. In fact, it is the principle reason why I reject the Longest Theory. There are some disguises with I find incongruent. I don&#8217;t think anyone would dare impersonate Lanfear, and in this case I feel the same. Discovery means death in both cases, and none of the Forsaken are risky enough for that. Aran&#8217;gar may have been walking around as Sammael, Osan&#8217;gar or Asmodean for a while, but her own PoV excludes Demandred as an option. </b><br /><br />Yes, I believe you are wrong with your first consideration. <br /><br />The word &#8220;game&#8221; implies that Aran&#8217;gar made a kind of deliberate gamble for her own advantage. The comparison with the Sammael impersonator shows that it has to do with posing as another Chosen, not with an unique disguise. <br />Therefore I don&#8217;t think Aran&#8217;gar simply means the new body she got from the DO. <br /><br />Furthermore, Aran&#8217;gar says that Demandred is too dangerous to approach him openly. <br />However, that doesn&#8217;t mean she wouldn&#8217;t plot against him, especially considering her typical recklessness and her admitted intrigues against other Chosen in the AoL.<br /><br />As I pointed out, precisely because Aran&#8217;gar channels saidin, a disguise as a male Chosen naturally makes more sense than to pose as a female Chosen, if you have to deal with Asha&#8217;man. Otherwise you had to disguise your ability to channel saidin, but somehow produce the goose bumps effect, and so on.<br /><br />Since Aran&#8217;gar couldn&#8217;t be certain if the Dark Asha&#8217;man know of the deaths of the killed male Chosen, or maybe because she never considered to pose as one of those (contrary to the Sammael impersonator), the only options left were Moridin (but he is Nae&#8217;blis), Osan&#8217;gar (but he posed as an Asha&#8217;man)  and Demandred.<br /><br />Demandred is the only male Forsaken who still lives with his original body. Considering Demandred&#8217;s reputation, probably his name alone commands much respect, even from the normally very proud Asha&#8217;man.<br />Together with his quite imposing appearance, &#8220;Demandred&#8221; was the best disguise for Aran&#8217;gar.


created: 2006-03-14 22:30:52
subject: <b>I don't normally vote, but</b>
body:
I agree that Osan'gar was Slayer's patron, and that Aran'gar posed as Demandred. You get thumbs up from me. Perhaps there is something to TLT (I too would like to see a new theory by LitN). I would also like to add that Aran'gar could NOT have been Slayer's patron.<br /><br />As you say, Slayer's patron was very cautious. One of the reasons why his patron was cautious was because Moridin was also using Slayer- to find Fain. At the Tea Party, Moridin mentions Slayer's search for Fain. Why then, would we have a POV from Aran'gar at the Garden Party where Moridin angrily comments on the fact that someone posed as Sammael, and find that Aran'gar is merely interested in knowing who played her game? Aran'gar would worry that Moridin was learning about a larger game invoving a plot to kill Al'Thor. Slayer's patron was directly concerned by Moridin (who Osan'gar was afraid of). I cannot believe that Aran'gar could be Slayer's patron, and her POV would be devoid of fear at hearing Moridin's displeasure. I think she is in the clear on that one.<br /><br />I think that Taim, Aran'gar, and Moridin all used the DF asha'man after the attack on Rand in Cairhien, and sent them to attack in Far Madding. Each thought that he alone was sending the DF asha'man, and for their own reasons. None of them knew about the others, and that is how Aran'gar isn't worried about Moridin's suspicions. If any of the DF asha'man talked, Taim would be in some trouble. Great job, Etzel!


created: 2006-03-16 11:36:55
subject: <b>A matter of pyschology.</b>
body:
So let's assume that it was Asan'gar as Demandred who commanded the Dark Asha'man. But then how would Asan'gar know that the Dark Asha'man feared the M'Heal over Demandred and why would she use Taim's title with Demandred's face? Any Chosen other than Demandred would have used Demandred's name and wrath to go along with the face and voice. Otherwise, what would be the point of threatening the Asha'man with Taim while disguised as Demandred? Plus, it would take someone who knew Taim, Demandred and the whole Dark Ashaman system to work the poor guy's mind that way.<br /><br />So, if you suggested Osan'gar posed as Demandred, I would say you had something. But then, wouldn't it just be easier for Osan'gar to pose as Taim?<br /><br />My Conclusion: Whoever posed as Demandred knew that the Asha'man just got the same message from Taim.<br />


created: 2006-03-17 03:45:47
subject: <b>A &quot;thank you&quot; and a reply</b>
body:
Thanks i bore a hole! And a good point about Slayer's patron.<br /><br /><br />To NothingNowhere,<br /><br /><b> So let's assume that it was Asan'gar as Demandred who commanded the Dark Asha'man. But then how would Asan'gar know that the Dark Asha'man feared the M'Heal over Demandred and why would she use Taim's title with Demandred's face? Any Chosen other than Demandred would have used Demandred's name and wrath to go along with the face and voice. Otherwise, what would be the point of threatening the Asha'man with Taim while disguised as Demandred? Plus, it would take someone who knew Taim, Demandred and the whole Dark Ashaman system to work the poor guy's mind that way.<br /><br />So, if you suggested Osan'gar posed as Demandred, I would say you had something. But then, wouldn't it just be easier for Osan'gar to pose as Taim?<br /><br />My Conclusion: Whoever posed as Demandred knew that the Asha'man just got the same message from Taim. </b><br /><br />I'm not really sure what you mean.<br /><br />The &quot;Demandred&quot;, who commanded the DAS to go to Far Madding, didn't threaten them with Taim. He said that the DAS shall no one tell of their task to kill Rand, expecially not their M'hael Taim.<br /><br />However, that doesn't make much sense if &quot;Demandred&quot; had known that Taim gave the DAS the same order before. <br />But apparently this &quot;Demandred&quot; didn't receive the same report like the true Demandred.<br />The reason is that he was Aran'gar.


created: 2006-03-18 17:46:38
subject: <b>It wasn't the same order.</b>
body:
Taim's First Order before the attempt: Kill Rand.<br />Taim's second order after the attempt: Kill Rand.<br />Demandred's Order: Kill Rand and if you fail don't come back, even to the M'Heal. {Was Kisman planning to return to Demandred?}<br />Moridin's Order: Kill him if you must but be sure to get any articles he is carrying and bring them to me.<br /><br />{I wish I knew if Demandred used the title M'Heal or if he used his actual name- curiously enough, this is the only point where one of the Forsaken actually mention the equally strong Taim just not by name. I also wonder if he wore a guise or appeared as Light like Mesaana and Semirhage. Just what I love about a good mystery- no important details.}<br /><br />I have noticed that each command after Taim's order must have some knowledge of it; this is very obvious in Moridin's command. The last word Demandred possibly uses is &quot;M'Heal&quot; and that is not unintentional. Demandred wanted Kisman to remember that Taim doesn't like failure. There's something of a Good Cop/Bad Cop vibe in Demandred's order. It's not redundent, it's punctuation.


created: 2006-03-18 18:42:18
subject: <b>to nothingnowhere</b>
body:
Actually, &quot;Demandred'&quot;s order was not to be discovered, and it was the DF asha'man's interpretation that he didn't know about the M'Hael's order. Why would Demandred care if Taim knew? He would care if Moridin knew. And we know from Demandred's POV, that he specifically wanted to kill Rand. He was glad when Moridin gave the order to go ahead and stop him. I don't think that we would get a confusing segment with Demandred simply reiterating Taim's order. None of the three knew of the others' orders to the DF asha'man. They simply saw renegades that had blown their cover, and now could be used solely to take down Rand. They were tools newly placed on the market, and all three saw the chance to get rid of Rand- for their own reasons. <br /><br />I find it interesting that the DF asha'man's statement states what all three say, and only for Demandred is there any confusion: 'as if he didn't know about the M'Hael's order.' There's that extra, ambiguous 'as if' part that makes this theory so intriguing.


created: 2006-03-26 07:37:14
subject: <b>Probable</b>
body:
You have my vote...<br /><br />I really do like it when people use proof to back up their theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-16 16:13:49
subject: <b>intersting theory</b>
body:
another possible 'disguise' for Aran'gar --- Mesaana in the White Tower, Alviarin notes that there seems to be things that Mesaana should know about, if she is 'hidden' in the White Tower, but doesn't<br /><br />someone disguised as Mesaana might miss a step as well<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania's very own 'Sex Wiki'<br /><i>The Dirty Old Man of Wotmania</i><br /><br /> <br />attack of the Ninja Smiley<br /><br />BigBrotherBrian to most of the Wotmania Sisterhood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 05:23:34
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Is it really stated in the books or in the Guide that AoL Aes Sedai could fly without help from machines (or ter'angreal).<br />I just found Siuan's statement that:<br />&quot;The records say Aes Sedai could fly, in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly.&quot;<br /><br />We know that they had airplanes in the AoL, so that could simply be meant.<br />Otherwise, you can also fly in TAR. <br /><br />Although Ishy seems to levitate in TGH, prologue, and at the end of TDR, he probably just created a platform or bridge of Air, like Rand did when he visited the Sea Fok Ship in ACoS, ch.34.<br /><br />That's not flying, though. Rand even considers in that scene in ACoS: <br />&quot;He wondered how much she [Min] would trust if she knew that this was as far as he could weave a bridge like this. One pace farther, one foot, and the whole thing would have given way at the first step. At that point it became like trying to lift yourself with the Power, an impossibility; even the Forsaken did not know why, any more than they knew why a woman, could make a longer bridge than a man even if she was not as strong.&quot;


created: 2006-03-15 07:00:18
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
You cannot fly with the Power. As Etzel says, Asmodean told Rand that you can't, and it is very unlikely he was wrong.<br /><br />It was probably a misquotes reference from the Age of Legends surrounding sho-wings and other flying vehicles. Aes Sedai could fly, but only in a sho-wing. We can fly too, but only in a boeing 747. I personally believe the rumour started there.<br /><br />The Power does have limits. You can't Heal yourself either, and that would be far more likely to me than flying with the Power.<br /><br />I admit that perhaps the people in the Age of Legends didn't figure out how to fly, and that it is possible. But I can't see it happening.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 11:03:19
subject: <b>About using objects</b>
body:
I've wondered whether it would be possible in the sense of using objects, as you alluded to (broomsticks).  <br /><br />For example, we have seen numerous examples of AS moving objects through the air with the OP.  Now, it may come down to a question of total weight (and this most likely is the limiting factor).  But for arguments sake, why couldn't a rather strong channeler, w/ a rather light person, have that person sit in a chair, and then the channeler whips the chair around in the air much like they do any other object?  <br /><br />IIRC, doesn't Rand lift both Elayne and Egwene into the air w/ the OP?  Haven't we seen the Forsaken lifting characters into the air w/ the OP?  This would seem to indicate that there are at least some people who can lift the weight of a human body.  It does not seem a far stretch to think they just add a chair or some other object, and manipulate that for &quot;self-propelled&quot; flight.  Distance does not become a factor as they are always right on top of the object they are moving.<br /><br />Maybe I'm missing something here.....<br /><br />Any thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 16:03:06
subject: <b>I can't remember exactly where</b>
body:
But didn't it say somewhere in the series that even the strongest chaneller, who would be able to lift many other people into the air at once, would only be able to make themself levitate a few inches off the ground at best, and would nearly burn themself out at that?<br /><br />Besides, this is Randland. If you flew around in one of the AoL's machines (can't remember what they were called), the people in Randland would crap themselves in amazement.<br /><br />It's just one of those things that the Power doesn't do, like letting men link by themselves, letting you Heal yourself, or let you explain to your numerous allies that the giant Power in the south that annihilated SL was, in fact, your doing...(Stupid Rand)


created: 2006-03-15 21:41:12
subject: <b>I think you're really close...</b>
body:
I have always felt that flying would suddenly occur to some channeler as nothing more than a slight modification of the &quot;platforms&quot; version of &quot;flying&quot; when skimming (before they rediscovered Traveling).  It seems the groundwork is already laid for this to occur to someone; objects can be levitated, &quot;platforms&quot; have already been conjured and used in another weave, and objects have been propelled through the air in a horizontal direction (ie, throwing rocks at someone).  I think it's going to turn out to be something very close to this.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 22:36:30
subject: <b>A Correction:</b>
body:
You said that it would be &quot;easy to lift someone else with the power&quot; and gave some examples of channelers who have done so. While I don't deny that it is done frequently, it is definitely NOT easy. Immediately after Nynaeve Heals Leane and Siuan, Siuan attempts to lift Bryne with the Power to show him that she can channel again. She states that lifting someone is one of the most difficult actions to perform with the Power.


created: 2006-03-15 23:33:27
subject: <b>Another Example</b>
body:
For those of us that have read New Spring, whats-her-name Black Ajah lady at the end casually lifts and drops the people from the balcony window, while shielding and such.<br />I can't remember if she was supposed to be very strong in the power, or just stronger than some.<br />Food for thought.


created: 2006-03-16 02:23:51
subject: <b>The Aes Sedai who thought she could fly</b>
body:
Remember the Accepted who thought she could fly? Somehow she got the idea she had learned the weave for flying and to prove it, she jumped off the top of the White Tower.<br /><br />Needless to say, someone got the job of cleaning the pavement below afterwards.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So no. This story of flying Aes Sedai had its roots in the AoL technology. Not only those sho-wings and other flying machines, but also manipulation of gravity. Remember the Sharom? Somehow, it was able to float in the air. If people could do that to an entire building, they could easily do it to people themselves!<br /><br />Nevertheless, I think the idea of two channelers levitating each other has the most merit of the suggestions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-16 14:32:22
subject: <b>Maybe ...</b>
body:
Maybe the reason Aes Sedai cannot fly is because possibly, channelers can't use the source on themselves. I don't know if there is any reference in books, but I can't think of any time someone has used the power on themselves. The air bridges are below them, gateways are at a fixed point in space, channelers can't lift or sheild themselves, and Lews Therin simply drew in too much without any weaves, so it seems pretty good. And besides, most of the channelers would have probably died at a young age if they could effect themselves witht the power. Imagine if a person tried to heal themselves without knowing how to channel well. Side effects may include cancer, limb loss, itching, cramps, pain, and death... he he he...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-24 06:52:35
subject: <b>Use Physics</b>
body:
Why hasn't anyone thought of using the OP to simulate a rocket or an airplane? If an Asha'man can create pillars of fire and explosions, shouldn't it be simple to keep up thrust inside an upside down pot(or something stronger, since a pot would likely explode) and stand on it, at least for a little while? In fact, it would make sense that while being mechanical, the fuel for the sho-wings could have been the OP. It's inexhaustible, powerful, doesn't hurt the environment, and if you fashion the fuel cell as a ter'angreal, anyone can pilot the sho-wing. I've no proof for it, and no idea how sho-wings work(no fuel at all?) but it makes sense. The only drawback would be that someone would have to spend all their time making sho-wing fuel cells.<br /><br />A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. - Mark Twain<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;<br />I was born with it...</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-29 22:44:12
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I've always thought along the same lines.  Couldn't they also tie off flows of air and walk on them? I've always wondered about that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. - Semisonic</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-17 11:30:43
subject: <b>my thoughts</b>
body:
Perhaps the art of flying lies within the weather. Channelers could fly just like Storm from the X-Men, using wind to lift and carry themselves. I like the pot idea too. Perhaps creating a cylinder out of flows of air and also attaching to urself like a seat belt mechanism of some sort the channeler would be able to build enough pressure to launch themselves. this would be extremely dangerous of course and they would need to figure out steering as well. And then how would they handle the g-forces and what if a circle of thirteen women decided they wanted to sheild you mid-flight or you collided with a bird or something? eigther way travelling is heaps  faster I'd stick with that.


created: 2006-12-30 21:53:15
subject: <b>Why would they.</b>
body:
They could travel.  Even those not strong enough could use a ter'angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-09 12:16:09
subject: <b>I like the pot idea, too</b>
body:
Everyone knows you can fly if you use pot. (I sincerly apologize, but I just couldn't resist)<br /><br />Seriously, this is what I think about the different means of flying suggested in the theory:<br /><br />2.1 I don't think this is possible, because I seem to remember someone, somewhere in some book (I could have dreamt this, as well), saying that lifting yourself with the OP is impossible for the same reason lifting yourself without the OP is impossible.<br />In my experience, two people trying to lift each other will have no more succes than one person trying to lift himself.<br />The way I see it, this should be true for someone using the OP as well.<br /><br />2.2 Possible, but inconvenient.<br /><br />2.3 Possible, but I wouldn't call that flying, as you would be unable to change your altitude very much (at least upwards).<br /><br />2.4 Possible, with the help of a machine such as a cho-wing.<br />Using a platform made of the OP wouldn't work, as we have seen several times in the books.


created: 2007-05-25 09:57:23
subject: <b>don't hit the ground</b>
body:
no, no, no...the trick is to fall, and at the minute before you hit the ground, completely forget that you're falling...then, you'll completely forget to hit the ground, and you'll be flying...as long as you don't think about it too much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-29 22:14:33
subject: <b>Age of Legends</b>
body:
Just a quick thought. in the age of legends the OP was apparently more widely available and accessible...even non channelers could use some TA. Apparently today those TA no longer function so the network of OP energy may have been used as a catalyst for flight..<br /><br />I also thought someone could just Gate themselves a thousand feet up and make wings of *air* and glide...wish we had a POV from on of the Forsaken...


created: 2008-06-10 03:33:59
subject: <b>flying force fields</b>
body:
Flying, conventionally, works under the laws of Physics. Yet in using the One Power to separate the ground from your feet, it requires warping the Pattern to conform to One's will. Thus, the effect would be like electrons circling around the nucleus...they don't move, they appear and disappear. I suppose the method of Skimming would provide a clearer direction if one were to decide to fly using the Power. Perhaps, using flows of Earth, instead of Air, to create a greater sense of gravity than the pull of the Earth...hmmm, like a little bubble with its own density...combine that with punching holes in the fabric of space-time (pattern) and you've got a recipe for black hole formations. Cool.


created: 2009-03-17 07:24:00
subject: <b>sounds well thought out.</b>
body:
I like it ! keep on keepin on.I think it is great that you are thinking about the oddball stuff.Not alot of peaple do that.I think that we my get alot ansers we are searching for if we look in the less obvious places.<br />


created: 2006-03-15 04:48:21
subject: <b>Reasonable explanation</b>
body:
Maybe one could also have cited the scene in TFoH, ch.34, where Moghedien shields Liandrin after she tries to attack Moghedien. <br />Immediately after this incident it's said that &quot;Chesmal and Temaile exchanged confused glances, as if they did not understand what had occurred.&quot; <br />Moghedien had to react very quickly to counter Liandrin, thus it's clear that her shield wasn't inverted or reversed.<br /><br />That would further support your point that the spirit flow is difficult to detect.


created: 2006-03-15 09:27:25
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
I really can't find any faults in it. Sounds like a good question for RJ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 11:59:34
subject: <b>Nice work, nice argument</b>
body:
Not much to say here.  You seem to have covered it pretty well.  I am wondering if we have any other examples of pure spirit flows, aside from shields, which also lend proof to your theory in terms of ability to see/feel the flows....(i cannot recall off-hand)<br /><br />Also, just popped into my head.  Does the shielding of Rand in LoC &quot;The Taking&quot; add anything to this?  <br />I'm at work and cannot reference the book right now, but I'm wondering if Rand experienced the same sort of &quot;shock&quot; as the examples you've pointed out.  I believe he did, but IIRC, after the fact, Rand was able to see/feel the weave quite clearly, allowing him to find the &quot;points&quot;....or was this just a matter of having more time to examine the shield itself?<br /><br />Either way, it would appear your on to something here.<br />Nice work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 14:27:25
subject: <b>Seems good</b>
body:
Seems good. Logic says it is harder to see semi-transparent things, and sheilds of spirit are often refered to as glass, mist, invisible barrier, ect...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-15 16:07:04
subject: <b>Um...</b>
body:
If memory serves (and usually it doesn't), if a woman hasn't embraced the Source, she can't see weaves of Saidar, can she? I don't know, it seems like there was something to that effect in the technicalities of it...


created: 2006-03-15 22:53:56
subject: <b>Doesn't suck!</b>
body:
I like the theory. Nice job.<br /><br />Scalius, I think sidious probably thought of your example, but didn't use it because Rand was shielded by women, so naturally he couldn't see, and, although he would have known they were channeling, he would not have known WHAT they were channeling.<br /><br />Nermid, women can see weaves of Saidar without embracing it. Can't think of a specific example at the moment, but I'll eat my socks if I'm wrong here.


created: 2006-03-16 11:58:09
subject: <b>Sorry,</b>
body:
but I can't help but disagree.  The whole idea seems wrong that one element would be harder to see.  The reason Nynaeve and Egwene didn't see that they were shielded could just as easily have been inexperience.  I think that if Spirit was that much harder to see than I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned more directly.  But a well written theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-17 14:46:49
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Thanks for all the criticism and comments. They are appreciated <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>Etzel</u></b><br /><br />Thanks Etzel. I'm wary to put in Forsaken evidence because they can invert and reverse their flows. We have no proof that Moghedien didn't do these things, and she might have. She certainly would have done it while using Compulsion on Liandrin, even though it isn't mentioned.<br /><br /><b><u>Kcf</u></b><br /><br />Thanks Ken <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>Scalius</u></b><br /><br />Spirit can definitely be detected, but I'm not sure to what degree relative to the other flows. As I said, I believe that Spirit has a lesser feel than the other flows. Channelers always feel other channelers shielding or Travelling, but these require a great amount of the One Power in both cases.<br /><br />Rand's example is probably prudent, but not for the reasons you think. As you say, he was shocked, but he is a male and can't see or feel any female flows properly. However, Rand mentions that the Aiel should feel the channeling in the palace and be roused to suspicion. Thirteen Aes Sedai wielding Spirit would use a great deal of the One Power, yet not one Aiel Wise One comes to investigate or finds it strange that so much saidar was used in the Palace. Perhaps they never felt it at all.<br /><br /><b><u>Demosthenes </u></b><br /><br />Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> As I said, a white transparent flow is logically more difficult to see.<br /><br /><b><u>Nermid </u></b><br /><br />Female channelers can always see weaves and flows, irrespective of whether they are holding the Power or not.<br /><br /><b><u>Nettles </u></b><br /><br />Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>the breaker </u></b><br /><br />I think the discrepancy has been mentioned directly. As RJ said, the flows have different feels and flavours, so it stands to reason that one is more bland than the other. Perhaps you can get away with Nynaeve and Egwene being ignorant, but how do you explain Siuan's surprise at being shielded, Graendal being approached without detection, or Merean being caught unaware by channeling right behind her?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-22 10:38:49
subject: <b>Makes sense.</b>
body:
It seems logical to me that there would be some inherent guesswork involved with Spirit, as neither sex has a natural talent for it.  By rule, at least.... since we know all the cool channelers are strongly gifted in 3 or more powers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-29 20:16:50
subject: <b>makes sense</b>
body:
Earth fire water and air are all things that exist outside of the body. But where would you find spirit in nature? I'd guess inside living beings. Spirit is inherently part of a person so theoretically you wouldn't notice part of yourself if it was outside of you. Whereas something that you already identify as being sepparately from yourself would be immedistely recogniseable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-29 22:39:19
subject: <b>probably true</b>
body:
It makes sense that it would be harder to see, but i don't know about harder to feel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. - Semisonic</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-05 17:51:08
subject: <b>It's l ike this</b>
body:
Spirit is like your foot. you know it's there and you rely on it to work but how often do you really notice it? Unless the foot hurts or doesn't work you don't really take much note of it. If somehow your foot became painlessly detched from your body while you were sitting down and kicked you in the but you would have no idea what hit you until you fall down because you no longer have a foot. this is like being shielded or having some other weave of pure spirit affect you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-10 22:11:32
subject: <b>Literary mechanic?</b>
body:
I propose that this is merely part of RJ's writing style. By concentrating on the effect of the weave rather than depicting it's attack it makes the attack more sudden and the effect more surprising. Take a look at all the combat scenes throughout the books. How many times has a character felt a wound occur rather than watch it happen?<br /><br />Its not that the character didn't see the attack coming, its more likely events were moving at such a pace that in order to maintain the rythym of the battle there is no time for the description.<br /><br />I think the shielding scenes were written in much the same way. Those being shielded saw it coming but didn't have enough time to react other than saying &quot;Oh... I'm shielded&quot;<br /><br />However, nicely laid out theory. I gave it a thumbs up.


created: 2008-05-18 05:44:48
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Nice theory, but I don't agree.<br /><br />Merean and Moiraine: it's quite possible that Moiraine channelled so quickly that Merean didn't notice it? Otherwise she would obviously have felt Moiraine embracing the source, since there are several instances where people just feel others holding the One Power (Elayne and Egwene in the Stone of Tear, in the shadows rising, I think).<br /><br />Same might go for Graendal at the cleansing. She might not have noticed, because it happened to quickly. Or she didn't notice it until the weave struck, because there was an awful lot of channelling going on. You know, light a flashlight in broad daylight, and how much of the light will you see unless someone points it to your eyes? The awful amount of saidar would have outshone the small amount that Verin and her circle channelled. And it might also be that Graendal did sense it and ignored it because she knew they couldn't shield her, since she sensed the strength of the weave.<br /><br />Siuan was shielded inside the Tower. I've always thought that channelling there occurs so frequently that you just ignore it altogether after a while. So, if you are focused on something else, someone might shield you without your noticing. <br /><br />Also, why you can't see a shield on yourself ... because it doesn't exist around you, more like ... inside you? Or in that space that is your connection to the One Power. Someone outside could see the weave, but you couldn't see it yourself, unless to try to reach for the Power.


created: 2006-03-22 08:27:23
subject: <b>the argument is only as strong as the weakest link</b>
body:
It seems to me as though your argument is based almost entirely on the square footage example for gateways. But, we are always given the size of gateways not in terms of square footage but in terms of a linear measurement. 2 spans or 3 paces or what have you. Of course squaring that number is going to make a bigger one seem even bigger. To give another hypothetical example, say we had some knowledge of how large a safe bubble Rand could project around himself vs. a circle of 13's bubble. Now if this information was given in terms of a linear measurement in both cases, would we then be justified in thinking that since the 13 AS could make one somewhat larger that the way to measure the relative ability was by the cubic footage of the space? I tend to think not. If we had an example of a circle of 13 making a platform like Rand does to go attack Rahvin then I think the comparison of square footage would be valid. As it is, I see no reason to think that the square footage of a gateway provides us any insight into the relative strengths of a circle (or a woman) vs. a man. Try comparing them in terms of the linear measurement (spans or whatever) and you'll see that your numbers fall apart. Unless you have some backing evidence that square footage is the true measure here, I'm unconvinced.


created: 2006-03-22 08:30:19
subject: <b>Saidin/Saidar</b>
body:
I get the feeeling that this is not about men and women, but Saidin and Saidar as you say at the end. This is easily observed from Halima's sex change not giving her any more effectiveness (at least nothing she comments about).<br /><br />Consider then the nature of Saidin and Saidar. It does seem that by surrendering to Saidar one gets complete control of it, while Saidin must be forced into doing what is desired. It seems that the reason behind Saidar being essentially more effective is that it is easier to control than Saidin!


created: 2006-03-22 09:02:05
subject: <b>some evidence</b>
body:
looking at sidious's strength post, I suppose there may be some evidence for the square footage measure (3 by 5 paces) but it seems to me that this line falls apart at some point- if it is only about square footage then a useful gateway could be made with (relatively)pretty minimal amounts of the OP. 6 SF would be pretty useful, though not for someone with a lot of extra poundage; just make it 6 feet tall and 1 ft. wide. Now 6 SF is about 1/24 what Rand's maximum is. If Rand has a strength of 100, then anyone with a strength in the OP of 5 or more should be able to make a quite useful gateway. However, we have a great deal of evidence that this is not the case, if the measurements of strength in sidious's theory are correct.


created: 2006-03-22 12:15:13
subject: <b>to no apostrophe</b>
body:
I don't actually agree with sidious's use of Gateway to determine strength for the same reasons you are pointing out.  A channeler who was a 1 compared to Rands 100 strength should be able to make a gateway 1% of his gateway and that is not the case.  There are weak AS who can't make a 1% Gateway.  And a weak AS is nowhere near the weakest of women.  But as a concept sidious had an excellent idea.  Gateways have been stated consistantly to be proportional to strength no weak person has been shown to make a gateway larger than someone stronger than them.  If we knew the exact stregths of the strongest woman and the lowest possible strength needed to make a Gateway we would be able to figure out the strength of anyone who could make a Gateway.<br /><br />So as a generality using Gateway area is completely reasonable.  And everything I wrote was implicitly intended to be general or diagramatical not accurate.  If you'll go back to that section of the theory I said I would agree with sidious for a &quot;mere&quot; moment that we knew the strength of the average AS and that Gateways were directly proportional to strength.  I don't beleive that we do or that we can because our information is incomplete.<br />We don't know the strength of the strongest woman and we don't know the lowest possible strength to make a Gateway.<br />Without these things we can't calculate the &quot;Density&quot; of saidar.  We can't calculate the strength of anyone except as a generality.<br /><br />But at the absolute level.  13 women of Lanfear's strength should only be able to weave a Gateway 13 times the size of Rands or smaller because of the loss of power in the link.  But the Gateway size is 62.5 times greater.  Precision is the only reason for this.<br /><br />As for area vs linear measurements, you cannot compare areas based on length of sides.  Gateways are areas.  It would be illogical to say a 10x1 gateway was larger than a 1x10 Gatewayor vice versa.  The hole in space should take the same amount of power to make whether it is vertical or horizontal.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-22 12:36:00
subject: <b>Addendum</b>
body:
I realized after reading this one more time that I did not fully intergrate the concept of precision=deftness=density.<br />Specifically I did not explain why linking precision is an increase in density.<br /><br />When a circle is formed all the power available is forced into a container built for the power of one.  The pressure from this is buffered by the subbordinte channelers.  So instead of the container popping(burning out) the saidar is just concentrated like a gas that is forced into a liquid state.  The increased density of the weave is what makes it more effective.  The increased density is one reason why a single channeler can not shield a circle, The shield is designed to cut off a certain density and can't successfully penetrate a potentially smaller but &quot;harder&quot; connection.<br /><br />So the connection I made between precision and deftness remains because they both are simply the result of the densness of saidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-23 05:42:13
subject: <b>gateways proportional to strength, I agree</b>
body:
Where I disagree is that the area of a gateway is directly proportional to the strength of the channeler(s). Most gateways that I can recall (without going back and looking at all the specific examples) are roughly squares. We have Sammael's 3x5 gateway as a counter example which I would say indicates his skill with the power (he is able to make a more useful gateway by slightly changing the dimensions of it) but I don't think we've seen any examples where the usefulness of a gateway has been maximized by optimizing the use of the area. If one or more channellers were to do this by making a gateway exactly tall enough but no taller than needed and as wide as possible in order to allow the greatest size or number to travel through it as possible, then I would be more tempted to buy the idea that strength was directly proportional to area of gateway. Instead, I think strength is pretty much directly proportional to one dimensional measurement unless a channeller is skillful (Sammael). Rand makes a 4 pace diameter gateway, someone with 75% less power makes a 3 pace gateway, a circle of 13 AS can make a gateway 32 paces in diameter which means that that particular circle of 13 AS is roughly 8x as powerful as Rand not 64x as powerful.<br />To quote from sidious, &quot;seven Aes Sedai linked in a circle would have a strength of about 133 (20x7-circle penalty of 5%) which is well above his strength threshold&quot;<br />In other words, according to sidious' (and my own) understanding, linking in a circle makes two or more AS slightly weaker than they would be if their strengths were directly added, not stronger, as you have suggested. Your evidence for this has come from the square footage argument which I think is inaccurate, since most of the time we see square gateways unless a channeler has the skill to make them slightly more useful by shifting them to a more useful rectangular area, so in general I would say that the width of a gateway is at least primarily directly related to the strength of the channeler(s) rather than the area. So this statement of yours- &quot;One example of circle precision increasing results is gateway size&quot; is where I disagree. I don't think that a circle is more powerful (because of precision) than the sum of its parts, but rather is less powerful than the sum of its parts. Anything in your theory based on that statement would be what I find myself in disagreement with. Hope that clarifies.


created: 2006-03-23 09:41:43
subject: <b>your forgot the five powers</b>
body:
I mostly agree with your theory. However you do not mention once the chaneller differnt sthrenght in each power. In the exqmple of the gateway a male need fire and spirit. Rand is strong in fire, spirit, and earth but other male might be stonger in those. for woman a gateway only requires spirit and the  13AS chosen to make the gateway were chosen not only by there strength in the one power but also in spirit.<br />An other example of the differences due to each person different strength in each power is Nynaeve inability to make ter&#180;angreal however she is stonger than Elayne this is probably due not to differences in skills beetwen them(Nynaeve healing show she is deft) but that she is not as strong as elayne in fire, spirit.


created: 2006-03-23 09:43:17
subject: <b>Area is the only thing that makes sense</b>
body:
Even if most Gateways are square there are several examples of non-square Gateways if we trust sidious estimates of size.  Which I do.  Therefore the argument that you must compare length is illogical.  As I pointed out above if you encounter a non-square gateway how would you decide which side indicated strength.<br /><br />Particularly my main example was<br />Rands 4 paces x 4 paces vs. the 13AS 10 Paces by 100 paces.  Already we are comparing a non-square gateway to a square one.  The only way to compare them is by area.  But even if you choose to go on the edge along the ground my example still stands.<br /><br />4 paces for 13 100 strength women should be 52 paces.  The gateway woven by 13 linked AS was 10 paces tall by 100 paces wide.<br /><br />Does that mean that the women lost 80% of their strength in the link since they couldn't make it 52 paces tall?  That's not a small loss. Or Does it mean that they gained 92% of effectiveness (almost twice as strong)?  Which would suport my theory even more.  Or Is it much more reasonable to say that they gained a 63% advantage by comparing their areas?<br /><br />The concept holds up unless you really believe that AS loose 80% of their strength.  Precision and deftness are both seemingly dramatic results with a lower volume of the power.  I think the results are not dramatic but simply due to a denser quality of saidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-23 10:11:25
subject: <b>As to the five powers</b>
body:
It has not been established exactly what strength in the power means.  It has also not been established what all of the components of a Gateway weave are.<br /><br />So anything I would say about that would be in dispute.<br /><br />For the five powers I would be stuck trying to explain whether the OP is made up of the five powers or if channelers convert the OP into each of the Five powers in varying percentages.<br /><br />If you beleive the former you have to believe that strength in a power eventually increases your total strength.  I.E. that any man who reaches Rand's strength implicitly has to be top strength in all five powers.<br /><br />If you believe the latter you have to beleive that a channeler of Rand's strength could conceivably be unable to light a candle.<br /><br />Egwene strength in Earth seems to be suppoted most by the latter.  Specifically Elane and Aviendha have the same potnetial and neither of them is &quot;strong&quot; in anything.<br />If the five powers are a conversion as the second theory suggests it has no bearing on my theory whatsoever.<br /><br />As for gateways.<br /><br />Whether they use the same powers or not is irrelavant  especially if the five powers are conversions of the OP.  Specifically in order to do &quot;just about anything to the same degree&quot; most weaves must be comparable.<br /><br />If by chance gateways are a weave that men just do better, like women with air bridges, that just brings the precision factor even higher and highlights my point even better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-23 16:23:18
subject: <b>Good one</b>
body:
This is an outstanding theory, and already one of my favourites. I read it a few times to catch the general message you were trying to convey. I voted <i>yes</i> because overall the content suggests what I believe in &#8211; that men and women are equal regarding the One Power. That said, I do have several criticisms and points. There are many issues which you have raised which I believe are unfounded or vague, and some which I consider to be openly wrong. So, to my points&#8230;<br /><br /><b>In General </b><br /><br />In general, I absolutely agree with you that without a doubt, the strongest possible man and strongest possible woman are equal regarding the One Power. However, I do believe that males have some unique advantages because of their greater raw strength, just as I believe that women have some extra abilities based on their greater deftness with the Power. Deftness is constant in general, but you did ignore strength in the 5 Powers. A woman who is very strong in Earth can surpass a stronger woman, or possibly equal a man of equal strength. We know that strength in more than 3 Powers was rare and therefore combinations thereof can shift channeler hierarchy drastically. An average woman with the very rare gift of being strong in all five Powers could surpass much stronger men and women.<br /><br /><b>Men vs Women </b><br /><br />As I said, they are equal. Jordan&#8217;s statement is not vague at all. Lanfear&#8217;s statement that she could do whatever Lews Therin could with the One Power is accurate and now we know, factual. I refer to one point of contention &#8230;<br /><br /><i>The belief that they occupy the same is scale is the underlying flaw in evaluating female and male strength. </i><br /><br />I don&#8217;t agree with that statement. The truth is that they can be tabulated on the same scale with the prerequisite that you state the base axis for the scale. In other words, you must speak about raw strength, skill or overall effectiveness. As you know, I have made a scale which I claim to represent raw strength. This scale I still believe is accurate, but it is grossly inaccurate if you wish to match up a male and a female in a duel. To think of Rahvin at 90 as vastly superior to Semirhage at 65 is the worst kind of error, because clearly they are very close (as you suggest). The best scale would take overall effectiveness into account, which is very difficult without a mathematical factor to increase female deftness. Either way, Jordan&#8217;s statements allow to place all of the Forsaken (except possibly for Moghedien) between levels 1 and 4 on your scale, which I believe is accurate. Considering the War of Power was an open war to become the best, it stands to reason that these 13 were dangerous enough, and equal enough, to not strike out when in one another&#8217;s presence.<br /><br />Another point of contention I share is the ignorance of the Power you claim in the Age of Legends. I utterly refute this. I believe that they knew everything about the Power, even though some aspects like Healing stilling and unraveling webs escaped them. It is almost impossible that they didn&#8217;t know about female deftness and the advantage it had over men. Consider how they used to do everything together in mixed circles. What are the chances that a stronger man wouldn&#8217;t notice that his weaker wife could lift as much as he could with the Power? Or that saidar was so much easier to weave compared to saidin when he linked with her? Or that Lanfear and Graendal were killing powerful men in open conflict during the War of Power? There are so many points which I could raise, which prove that ignorance just isn&#8217;t a possibility here. As you said, Moridin knew about the advantage when he matched Sammael and Graendal, and Lanfear suggested it too. Therefore the others know, but I think they weren&#8217;t intelligent or responsible enough to make the link. As you pointed out, human factors might be responsible for Rahvin&#8217;s statement. Consider a man sitting at level 18, and how he compares himself to a woman with apparently equal capability. He links with her and discoveres that he can draw 15 saidin, but that she has 12 saidar. Now imagine you have two stronger channelers linking who are both at level 9. He notices that he can draw 60 saidin, but she only had the potential to draw 48. They can do the same things with the Power, but he clearly thinks he&#8217;s a lot stronger than her compared to the man at level 18, who believes the difference isn&#8217;t as big. <br /><br />Now we get to the incredibly strong channelers like Rahvin and Asmodean, who for argument&#8217;s sake are sitting on level 3. Rahvin links with a woman who apparently can match his feats with the Power. To his surprise he can draw 90 saidin, but she peaks at 72. Clearly he thinks of himself as much stronger than a woman. Someone brings along a woman like Lanfear and tells him that a stronger woman doesn&#8217;t exist in the world. When linking, he can&#8217;t believe that she&#8217;s sitting at 80&#8230; which is as strong as a woman can get. In those moments, he&#8217;s already established his thoughts on male superiority with the Power. This is a clear demonstration as to how easy it is for a strong male to get caught up in the raw strength illusion, even though he knows she can match his feats with the One Power. If a powerful woman linked with Rahvin, she would feel his greater strength too, but she would never forget that her equality was established before they linked. This adequately explains the gender imbalance and their difference in perceptions. Some of the Forsaken get this, and others don&#8217;t. Jordan&#8217;s super-Forsaken take particular care around one another and recognize the value of one another i.e. Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael, Graendal, Lanfear and Semirhage&#8230; whereas the more reckless Forsaken i.e. Rahvin, Asmodean and Aran&#8217;gar ignore it and fall into the easy trap.<br /><br />I can almost sympathize with Rahvin and Asmodean&#8217;s statements. Rahvin knows that no woman can ever match him unaided in raw strength, and to him this is what matters. Being a male, he has no other means of measuring relative strength. He even evaluates Sammael&#8217;s strength when he appears at the meeting. Combine this with the fact that Rahvin and Asmodean probably almost never encountered men or women near as strong as them. In large circles with average women, imagine how inflated their opinions became. It is a natural thought process which I&#8217;m sure any man would fall into if he could channel, and was permanently informed about how men are stronger than women.<br /><br />That said, Rahvin&#8217;s statement was not necessarily incorrect. If Lanfear really is at level 1 as you suggest, and Rahvin at level 3, then he would be justified in claiming that he could overwhelm her. Clearly they are all top strength channelers, and he feels that he is up to the challenge. I am sure that many of the Forsaken think they could overwhelm him, or Lanfear, or Semirhage. If all of them can be reduced to 4 channeling levels, then the chance that they could kill one another remains good, even if they initiated an open duel.<br /><br /><b>Saidin vs Saidar </b><br /><br /><i>A cup of saidar &#8220;weighs&#8221; more than a cup of saidin and weight is what makes the cup effective. </i><br /><br />I don&#8217;t agree with this hypothesis of yours, mainly because I think there is no evidence for it in the series. It is also unlikely that the two halves have different densities. You claim different densities for the two halves, but I claim different behaviour. Different behaviour is a fact which has certainly been reiterated many times in the series.<br /><br />You see saidar as a cup of mercury and saidin as a cup of water. I see saidar a cup of cool lemonade, and saidin as a bubbling cup of heated soda. We have heard time and again how saidar is a placid river which does whatever you want, whereas saidin must be wrestled with to do anything. I believe that female weaves are naturally more deft because saidar flows where you want it to. The weaves are more precise and orderly because the Power its self is tranquil and obedient. Saidin is very different. It resists being woven or controlled, and I believe that even after it is woven it attempts to branch out or escape and follow its own course. The weaves are thus less precise and more strength is required to obtain the desired effect.<br /><br />The density argument is refuted, I think. I just can&#8217;t believe that Rand wouldn&#8217;t comment on it&#8217;s apparent difference in density when he linked with Nynaeve. Yet he does immediately comment on the fact that saidar is peaceful and calm. On the contrary, Nynaeve comments on the wild torrent which is saidin. Chaos and death, she calls it. Another point of refutation of varying density is Travelling, but I&#8217;ll address this later.<br /><br /><b>Travelling</b><br /><br />As I said before, I&#8217;m not going to defend my gateway hypothesis anymore. Either you believe it, or you do not. I maintain my original stance that it is accurate and that the series demonstrates this. I also believe that gateway size can be used reasonably accurately to determine channeler raw strength if the dimensions are known, and if the channeler is unaided or not in a circle. For this reason I disagree with the following&#8230;<br /><br /><i>So a woman who opened a gateway the same size as a man would actually be &#8216;weaker&#8217; than him but essentially she would be his equal or his counterpart much like thirteen incredibly weak women in a link would be a match for Rand&#8230; </i><br /><br />I believe that Travelling relies on raw strength alone (and strength in Spirit if you want to be really pedantic). There is more than enough evidence for it too. I believe that a woman who opens a gateway which equals a man&#8217;s in size, has the <i>same</i> raw strength in the Power, and not the same equivalent strength. The women is overall vastly superior due to deftness, but as I said, the production of a gateway relies on raw strength.<br /><br />We can see how extremely rare the required strength is for Travelling in the Salidar channelers, as Egwene points out. Yet, we see that Travelling is not nearly as rare among the Ash&#8217;aman where it is almost considered a general skill. There are men who are not strong enough to Travel, but there are dozens of soldiers who are still growing in strength who can weave gateways. Therefore, without a doubt, female deftness has not caught up here, which leads me to believe that raw strength is important for forming the conduit in the Pattern. I also demonstrated several times that strong women like Elayne used their full strength to form gateways of lesser size compared to men like Grady and Neald, who are not of special strength among the Asha&#8217;aman. According to your scale, Egwene and Elayne should easily equal Neald if they caught up with deftness, yet their gateways are smaller despite using their full potentials. The link between raw strength and Travelling is almost irrefutable, I believe. For this reason, I believe that strong males gain one of their unique advantages in Travelling. I don&#8217;t believe that Rand&#8217;s gateway of 4 paces by 4 paces can be equalled by Lanfear, and I also believe her gateway cannot surpass her raw strength of 80. It is just a theory I have, but I&#8217;m more than willing to put it to the test.<br /><br />For this reason, I believe that Travelling refutes the density theory. If women and men of supposed equivalence i.e. strength and deftness combined, produce gateways of greatly different size, as Elayne and Neald do, then the densities <i>must</i> be the same. Otherwise, far more women in Salidar would be able to Travel if less Power was needed than with males. Clearly, the statistics speak otherwise.<br /><br /><b>Linking</b><br /><br />I agree that linking has huge advantages. Even though Rand says he could possibly match seven individual sisters, all it took were three linked channelers to overwhelm Demandred. Also consider how two linked sisters were an equal match for Nynaeve, who was surely stronger than the two combined.<br /><br />Even though strength is lost in a link, it is infinitely more powerful. If I had seven channelers I would definitely link them to attack a foe. Their advantage in Travelling, as you mentioned, just demonstrated the tremendous exponential advantage in linking. As usual, precision weaving is the most underestimated entity in the series.<br /><br /><b>Strength</b><br /><br />I agree with your sentiments on small changes at the bottom of the strength list, and agree that Jordan&#8217;s statement fulfils it nicely. I believe that the male equivalent of Morgase has a strength of 1, and that she has a strength of 0.8. Therefore he is 20% stronger than her, but her deftness makes her his equal. The difference in raw strength is almost negligible, and it means they are roughly the same at the bottom as Jordan says.<br /><br />As for the top strengths, we now know that Moiraine and the Guide&#8217;s statement that Ishamael and Lanfear were the strongest is now accurate.<br /><br />I also think you underestimate raw strength greatly. It obviously plays a major part in any consideration. The Forsaken often consider raw strength in the Power. It is foolish to think that Rahvin isn&#8217;t thinking about raw strength too when evaluating Rand al&#8217;Thor. If his thoughts on Lanfear are limited to this, then they are certainly limited with Rand too. Yes, the Forsaken mention training often, but there are other examples&#8230;<br /><br />1. Semirhage says that Cabriana is so weak that she could easily shield her without problems. A clear reference to raw strength. <br /><br />2. Graendal says that she won&#8217;t teach the Aiel Compulsion. She says that Someryn doesn&#8217;t have negligible strength, and she won&#8217;t risk skill and strength in one woman. Therefore raw strength is of consideration to Graendal. <br /><br />3. Moghedien says she can&#8217;t wait for Rahvin to meet Nynaeve unblocked. Rahvin thinks no woman can match him, but Moghedien believes Nynaeve&#8217;s strength enough to leave him wide-eyed, if Moghedien can train her to direct it against him.<br /><br />4. Lews Therin thinks that he can manage any three women, unless they were too strong. There is no way he could say this unless he was evaluating raw strength, because skill cannot be measured so precisely. <br /><br /><b>Skill </b><br /><br />Siuan was almost certainly much stronger than Nynaeve at this point in TGH. Only in TDR does she tell Nynaeve that Verin has told her that she&#8217;s as strong as any sister in the Tower (which is Siuan level). Siuan therefore didn&#8217;t require any skill to shield a woman who was probably much weaker than her&#8230; a woman who had touched saidar for perhaps the second time. However, Nynaeve&#8217;s ability to learn an Air weave staggered Siuan.<br /><br />Cyndane is the best example of skill, and how it can overwhelm strength. However, there are limits. According to Cadsuane, Alivia knows almost nothing about the Power, and according to the Forsaken the Aes Sedai know nothing. So Cyndane is far more knowledgeable, which I think should be taken into account. Nynaeve or Cadsuane might have done a better job against Cyndane. Obviously a strong channeler without skill is useless, but I still find it remarkable that Flinn could overwhelm Demandred despite the definite skill difference.<br /> <br /><b>Shields</b><br /><br />As I said, gateways are probably a unique advantage men have over women. I also believe that shielding is too, to a degree. Due to the fact that a male has a much greater raw strength, it is harder to keep him from the Power because of the gradient he can make with the Source, when he tries to draw on it through the shield.<br /><br />Notice how Nynaeve, despite having Forsaken strength, can barely hold Logain. Raw strength obviously plays a role here, and Logain wasn&#8217;t even trying according to Nynaeve. If she really is as deft as a man of about 80 strength e.g. Asmodean, then she should be able to hold any man. Nynaeve is Forsaken strength, yet two linked women can hold a shield on her. It takes at least six to hold men like Rand and Logain. Once again the deftness argument is lost here, and the density theory is compromised too. Increased density of her shield doesn&#8217;t allow it to retain it&#8217;s structure, and it almost breaks. The short of it is that sometimes raw brute force is effective, and shields are one case (or at least, breaking shields). As you said, Lanfear can shield Rand despite lesser raw strength, but once the shield is on, it might be a different story. Possibly not for Lanfear, but certainly for weaker women.<br /><br />A woman&#8217;s unique skills in my opinion include weaving with great intricacy. It is possible that men cannot weave small intricate webs which women can. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-26 13:17:31
subject: <b>Male and female linking versus female linking?</b>
body:
Seeing how Saidar and Saidin work, maybe the deftness part comes into play from the start, that Men have to actively reach out and grad Saidin which takes a lot more concentration than a woman's surrending to Saidar which seems a lot easier. Just a thought on why the Forsaken don't think much about it in terms of Overall strength because it's so much a part of the basic difference of Saidin and Saidar. And maybe why Lanfear was originally searching for a One Power both Men and Woman could channel when she found the True Power.<br /><br />So to my question: If Saidar/Saidar linking isn't quite additive, is Saidin/Saidar more like multiplicative, because it is a lot stronger than additive? And if it is multiplactive, then is it be because it gives Men the deftness qualitve of Saidar with the power of Saidin? It would explain why Males are more likely to control Saidin/Saidar linking and why they have to consciously hand the bond over to woman.<br /><br /><br />I wouldn't rely so much on which Forsaken can think they can overpower other Forsaken, unless they actual go and try it. How much of that is just idle thought or bluff to make them feel better in following other Chosens' orders? It's the same way the Forsaken now follow Moridin: &quot;I'll obey him for now but when I get my chance, Bam!&quot; It's not because they actually could or even ever kill him, it's just so they could feel better at obeying him.<br /><br />So I would trust Moghedien's thought of using Nynaeve against Rahvin than Rahvin's idea that he could take Lanfear. Not exactly because Nynaeve would be more able to take out Rahvin than Moghedien but because Moghedien would be there to take the advantage of the fight, perhaps even to link with Nynaeve if necessary.<br /><br />Lanfear attacking Rand: I thought Lanfear had her angreal all the time and that was what make them close to equal in the One Power and why she thought she could beat Rand. The angreal on the wagon was Moiraine's.


created: 2006-03-27 18:31:21
subject: <b>Hey sidious</b>
body:
thanks for the feedback.  I was beginning to think you weren&#8217;t coming.  I also appreciate where you&#8217;re coming from and I&#8217;m glad to see that we&#8217;re mostly in agreement. But I think we can negotiate on the issues were we disagree.  Specifically concerning density.<br /><br />To begin with I&#8217;ll address strength in the five powers.  I will officially state that I believe in the conversion model but I&#8217;ll propose a remedy that fits my theory for either model.<br /><br />If you consider my addendum where I explained how deftness=precision=density you&#8217;ll see how this will explain how strength in a power could be explained.  In the addendum I suggested that a circle increases its density by forcing the volume of two channelers into the conduit of one.  Likewise whether the channelers conduit is divided into five compartments or a channeler is equipped with five filters these compartments or filters could affect the density or concentration of each of the five powers.<br /><br />Consider a woman who is weak in fire.  In the case of compartments for example her Fire compartment would be larger than her Air and Water compartments.  The amount of each power entering the channeler would be the same and so the smaller compartments like in linking would be forced to accommodate a higher concentration of their designated power.  Because the Fire compartment is so large there is no increase in density and so there is a noticeable difference in the effectiveness of concentrated Air vs. pure Fire.<br />In the case of filters or conversion you can also argue an increase in density.  Increased density through a filter is not significantly different from the compartment model.  You have a Fire filter that has larger holes vs. an Air filter that has smaller holes.  Think of a water hose.  No nozzle water leaks on the ground just like it does from the faucet.  Add a nozzle and you can shoot water several feet.  Essentially by increasing the density you increase the pressure or in the case of channeling the effectiveness.<br /><br />Hopefully that addressed any issues concerning strength in specific powers.<br /><br />Men vs. Women<br /><br />I will have to say that I am inherently not discussing the validity of one form of measurement.  My intention was to show that by proving deftness as a constant I would prove that women could match men at the highest levels in effectiveness.  Since it is a constant multiplier and not a constant additive I felt that it proved that the nature of saidar was the actual source as opposed to a female ability likened to skill.  I know that you agree that it is the nature of saidar and hopefully I will convince you it is a type of density that describes that nature.  In this way my statement that the men and women don&#8217;t occupy the same scale is accurate.  I am essentially saying that comparing the volumes of men and women is uninformative without knowing the difference in density.  Likewise comparing the density of saidar to saidin is uninformative without knowing the volume.  Only an effectiveness scale that compares the &#8220;weight&#8221; of individuals could provide us with any real sense of what a channeler can do.<br /><br />As for the suggestion of ignorance I think it is completely plausible, particularly social ignorance not so much scientific ignorance.  The scenarios you presented don&#8217;t really dispute this.  In regard to circles any increase in effectiveness would be attributed to the link.  In regard to a husband being surprised by the lifting of his weaker wife, consider that the basis for social ignorance is that even strong women of say Egwene or Elayne caliber might be less effective than the average man.  That&#8217;s why I suggested in the section discussing the Asmodean quote that the average man might be several magnitudes greater than the average woman.  In regard to ease of channeling I have a backburner idea that I&#8217;ll add at the end of this post.  In regard to Lanfear and Graendal, consider that even before the opening of the Bore they were both considered to be greatly skilled.  Graendal especially was famous.  My section on skill shows that even amongst the same sex skill can be devastating.  As long as a stronger man thought he was at least equally skillful to them he would assume superiority due to volume.  As we have discussed in the past without personal experience belief in one&#8217;s own skill level is hard to assault.  But I don&#8217;t think you and I are too far apart here.  Any ignorance was probably just too much &#8220;common&#8221; sense.<br /><br />Saidar vs. Saidin<br /><br />Well now we get to discuss density and I think its key that we consider the states of matter and how density as a representative of these states implicitly describe behavior.  So in this respect I don&#8217;t think you disagree with me at all.<br /><br />The descriptions of saidar and saidin have been consistent throughout the series.  And as you pointed out Rand&#8217;s point of view did not disagree with those previous descriptions.  Those descriptions do not conflict with my theory in the slightest.<br /><br />Consider for a moment the tumultuous and hard to control saidin versus the stable and easily directed saidar.  Sadin as a collection of loose particles that takes much more effort to hold in line and saidar as a collection of dense particles that is easy to place.  Saidin due to its looser state is much more malleable while saidar due to its density resists force.  The behaviors of saidin and saidar are byproducts of their densities.  A Gas versus a Liquid both fluids with similar properties yet the differences that do exist are directly related to their densities.<br /><br />A more concrete piece of evidence for the saidin &#8220;gas&#8221; versus the saidar &#8220;liquid&#8221; is Cadsuane&#8217;s search for the taint.  She says anything could hide among the wild and disassociative particles of saidin where as in the much more compact and orderly saidar she would be able to spot the taint immediately.<br /><br />Hopefully I&#8217;ve brought you on board with the density argument though I know such convincing is an upward battle.<br /><br />Traveling<br /><br />I hope that you don&#8217;t think I was bringing up old arguments in regard to gateway size.  I was just making sure that the poster above knew where I was coming from.  That said, I have to say that your objection to my explanation of comparing male and female Gateways is unfounded.  In part because &#8220;same degree&#8221; means same size to me but also because the premise of my theory is that the importance of female deftness is overlooked because of the incredibly low strength of the average female.  Asmodean&#8217;s comment already proves that the average man is at least twice as strong as an above average woman.  When you take circle precision into account it could be as high as three or four times the volume of an above average woman.  This means that, as I pointed out above, even a &#8220;strong&#8221; woman could be less effective than the average man.<br /><br />For example in effective strength Nynaeve was probably as strong as the average man at the time she was fighting the two BA in the Rahad.  But in volume she was probably much lower.  But even without that guarantee consider how she is a bonfire next to the candles of Elayne and Egwene.  And then consider how rare those two candles are and you&#8217;ll understand how staggeringly the volume of the average man is compared to the average woman.<br /><br />With this staggering difference in volume AND effective strength in mind even the above average woman otherwise known as an AS might lack the effective strength to open a Gateway.  The rarity of Traveling in females therefore supports my theory of density and in no way refutes it.<br /><br />Linking<br /><br />We agree<br /><br />Strength<br /><br />1.	Two women, density is the same so volume is an acceptable point of comparison<br />2.	Two women, density is the same so volume is an acceptable point of comparison<br />3.	 Lanfear clearly wields more volume than Nynaeve and less than Rahvin.  Therefore Moghedien is clearly referring to effectiveness, which is a product of density and volume.<br />4.	 Strength or (volume) does add up to effectiveness.  It just so happens that female density increase effectiveness at a lesser volume.<br /><br />Skill<br /><br />The point of the matter is that whether Nynaeve was stronger or as strong as Suian, Suian did not have any major advantage.  As for Nynaeve&#8217;s touching of the source she was well beyond two touchings.  She had already become a &#8220;wilder&#8221; meaning she had already survived the sickness of touching the source without training.  Additionally she had also healed several people by this time enough for Rand and company to comment that her cures always worked.  So with that in mind Nynaeve was much further along in her strength even if it might have been below Suian on the boat.  Considering she could lift Suian I stick by the notion that she couldn&#8217;t have been much below.   Indeed Suian even pointed out that if Nynaeve had been trained she would not have been able to shield her.   The bottom line is that on that boat Suian only talked about Nynaeve&#8217;s lack of skill.<br /><br />For Cyndane I submit that the main skill advantage against so much of the power was reversing her flows and a certain level of finesse.<br /><br />For Demandred he was facing a mixed circle with a strong man included.  It has been stated that mixed circles are even more effective than female only circles.  He&#8217;s lucky to have gotten away.<br /><br />Shields<br /><br />The same arguments I presented for Gateways can be applied here.  If the average man is the effective strength of Nynaeve in the Rahad think of how low the average woman is.  Nynaeve is not rare because of the culling she is rare because she is rare.  Consider for a moment how much effective strength she has over the strong Egwene/Elayne/Cadsuane range.  Then think how much advantage those have over the average woman who can &#8216;t even become AS.<br /><br />I think the contention we have here is that I&#8217;m saying that men do have the advantage but not because women are incapable of shielding them but because of the law of averages.  The increase in effectiveness by most women is negligible.  As much as density increases female advantage in one direction it decrease at the same rate in the other direction. <br /><br />Let use Nynaeve as a model and for the moment forget the concept of &#8220;Forsaken&#8221; strength.<br /><br />According to Asmodean&#8217;s statement<br />Nynaeve is the effective strength of the average man in the Rahad.  That means that Moghedian is the strength of the average man or lower.<br />When Rand hands Egwene and Elayne their butts in the TSR they claim that Nynaeve might be able to duplicate his feats.  That means that she and Rand are approximately the same effective strength at this time.  At the end of this book Rand faces Asmodean and is pretty equal to him.  This indicates that Rand Nynaeve, Asmodean and Moghedien are average male effective strength in TSR.  This indicates that average male strength starts well at the top of the list. It also indicates that the average man can&#8217;t be that many levels below the ultimate male.  This explains why Nynaeve finds Alivia&#8217;s volume so staggering and why Moghedian herself is terrified of Rahvin even though she thinks Nyneave might one day be effective enough to challenge him.<br /><br />This was all to say that shielding and gateways as far as we have seen do not dispute my theory.  They only emphasize the train of logic I just wrote.  If the average man is as effective as Nynaeve in the Rahad then there is no chance that the average woman, the above average woman or a strong woman is going to be able to shield him.  Only a super strong woman like Nynaeve or an obscenely strong woman like Alivia has any chance of doing so.  If Logain is closer to Rand strength than Asmodean strength as seems likely that he would be able to break Nynaeve&#8217;s shield but probably not against Nynaeve&#8217;s final strength.<br /><br />So finally I state again that I think we can potentially agree here.  As I described density it conforms to the behavioral aspects of saidin and saidar.  As I qualified the average strength of average women even Nynaeve currently is not much more effective than the average man.  With that in mind her growth in the power will produce a much more impressive increase in effectiveness that will bring her on the level of a Semirhage or maybe even a Graendal.  With that in mind also consider that the distance between the average man and the top male is probably much shorter than we have been led to believe.  Consider that knowing as a group that only an extreme minority of women could challenge them unlinked would obscure the reality that such women could exist.<br /><br />PS<br />On my back burner idea.  I considered adding it previously but it did not necessarily seem relevant.  When Meirin and Beidomon drilled the Bore they were looking for a unisex power source.  It is my backburner idea that women and men of the same effectiveness have the conduits that can withstand the same amount of force.  In this way if Meirin and LTT were to channel this unisex power they would be able to hold the same volume because the power they were wielding would be the same density.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-28 17:51:46
subject: <b>to nothingnowhere</b>
body:
Saidin and Saidar links are more effective because the two powers press against each other.  So in a way you are right.  The rigidity of saidar would help contain the wildness of saidin thereby making it more effective by easily containing it.<br /><br />Looking at the example of the Cleansing Rand used saidar to contain the torrent of saidin.<br /><br />PS<br />Lanfear was using the angreal that Moiraine placed on the wagon.  That means Lanfear had no angreal before she got on the wagon to take Moiraine's bait.  Lanfear began shielding Rand before she got on the wagon so she had to be doing it with her own strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-28 18:05:12
subject: <b>I wish we could just edit</b>
body:
but Saidar and saidin links might increase effectiveness like the conduit at the cleansing because saidar compressess saidin  i.e. makes it more dense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-01 09:16:20
subject: <b>Angreal</b>
body:
Surely if you multiply strength by deftness to get th level e.g level 20 females could become insanely powerful using sa'angreal. If a mans deftness is 10 and his strength is 40 then an angreal adds 40 to his strength he then becomes 800. A female with strength 20 and deftness 20 using an angreal that adds 40 would then become a 1200.<br />this would mean that females with high strength such as Lanfear of Moghedien could use an angreal or even a sa'angreal and become thousands of times more powerful than a man with similar powers and a similar sa'angreal. This would mean that angreal and sa'angreal would become useless to men if a female had one


created: 2006-05-01 13:32:04
subject: <b>to ed ok</b>
body:
actually angreal would not have any greater advantage for women than they would have for men.  For one angreal are multipliers and your post seems to indicate that they are addtive. For two the multiplicative nature of female deftness is just to supply us with the equivalent male strength.  A 2x angreal will multiply a females strength 2 times just like a 2x angreal would multiply a males strength 2 times.  The deftness multiplication just informs us what equivalent male strength the female possesses.<br /><br />The final conclusion of my theory is that &quot;deftness&quot; is due to saidar being more dense than saidin.  Therefore both LTT and Lanfear can lift a 100.  Saidar is just in a more compact form that takes up less space.<br /><br />In other words 100 particles of saidar take up the same amount of space as 80 particles of saidin.  An angreal increases the amount of particles you can handle.  A circle increases the density and thereby the pressure/effectiveness of the weave.  For example two women might be able to channel 10 particle individually but when linked they have access to 18 particles.  At first glance they should be equal to a sigle woman who channels 18 particles but in reality they would be equal to someone much stronger.  Think of it like this.<br /><br />Lets say every woman can channel 1 particle per second.  when those two women linked they are both channeling 1 particle per second so together they are channeling 2 particles per second.  So an 18 paricle woman can hold as much saidar as the two linked women but in reality they are twice as strong as she is because they can channel their capacity twice as fast.  Likewise women apppear to be &quot;deft&quot; because they SEEM to be channeling more particles per second.  I say seem because the density of saidar makes it seem like the female channeler's volume is being used up more quickly than the males.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-15 03:24:06
subject: <b>hmm interesting but...</b>
body:
It was suggested by linda_sedai in the theory &quot;A Man Lies Dying - an interpretion of Egwene's dream&quot; that the man might be Dobraine. We learned in KoD, ch.18, though, that Dobraine recovered from the Darkfriend attack on his life. Therefore the man can't be Dobraine.<br /><br />I'm not sure I follow the logic in this part.  What evidence is there that the dream might not have allready come to pass?  Egwene certainly wouldn't have known Dobraine and they did think he was going to die.


created: 2006-04-15 03:53:11
subject: <b>Thanks to WindbitersFinger! And to dacole...</b>
body:
Dobraine was near death in CoT. But in the end this wasn't significant for the plot, as a Dream suggests. <br />In KoD we learned that he simply recovered. There was nothing during his recovery that fits with the funeral pyre part or the chorus of glad &amp; sad voices. <br /><br />Also the narrow bed isn't really explainable since Dobraine recovered in his certainly very comfortable appartments in the Sun Palace.  <br /><br />Besides, it's actually quite likely that Egwene knows Dobraine from her time in Cairhien.


created: 2006-04-15 13:01:17
subject: <b>Nice idea</b>
body:
But you never really prove that it is Ituralde. You make a good case for the need of a camp nearby, and for haste. But you never really pin it down as Ituralde specifically.<br /><br />It may very well be some lord in the borderland armies that gets hurt and none of the aes sedai know of the new healing. It could be Galad. I don't think so, but it stands to reason the same as Ituralde. <br /><br />I see two reasons for agreeing with you: 1- Ituralde is a really cool, new to the scene character; 2- The Graendal imperative.<br /><br />However, I find it just as likely that none of these threads will be completed in the last book. RJ doesn't like to have everything explained (Asmodean's killer- not Slayer). You make some nice points, as always, but I don't think you've closed this case.


created: 2006-04-15 13:24:02
subject: <b>Sorry for the addendum...</b>
body:
Dobraine and Bashere were attacked for their seals, not for their armies. Graendal might put a hit on Ituralde, but it will be different from the other hits. <br /><br />Secondly, you say that the songs of joy and sadness come from the Domani AND the seanchean. I don't know about seanchean custom, but in the heat of battle (and you say that haste and speed are important) I doubt that the seanchean will allow the domani a stay to light a funeral bier for Ituralde. After all, a pyre creates a lot of smoke, and aren't there supposed to be nine out of ten raken searching for the man? The more I look at it, I think that Rand will make Ituralde a steward, but that Egwene's dream is about another man.<br /><br />Ituralde says that he has a plan for everything short of the DR appearing. I don't see that as foreshadowing that he'll be put down by one of Graendal's DF's. The Wolf's plan is too good to be ruined by some attack by DF-mick-random. I like the idea of him pulling the seanchean into a stedding. I can't see his plotline getting shut down by an attack from the shadows. If anything, Rand's truce with the seanchean will end that war, and he'll be made steward.


created: 2006-04-15 13:46:45
subject: <b>Possibly</b>
body:
I've recently been rereading COS and and trying to figure ths one out for myself.  I had classified Ituralde as one of my possibilities but I'm not convinced it is him.  Your theory makes sense, but I'm not sure we have enough information to really say with any certainty.  I also had Furyk Karede on my list based on his interactions with Mat and his ties to Tuon.  For the most part I've just been trying to weed out people whom Egwene would recognize, but who seem important.  In closing, its a possibility we have so little information the possinilities are endless<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-15 13:53:20
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Perhaps the songs of joy and sadness could be after a great battle won. Joy for victory, sadness for Ituralde who they think will die.


created: 2006-04-15 16:00:53
subject: <b>One of the theory I like.</b>
body:
Yes, The Little Wold makes sense. Although the songs of joy and sadness sounds like songs after great battle - joy for victory and sadness for losses.


created: 2006-04-15 19:02:27
subject: <b>I don't see Ituralde as being one of the Light.</b>
body:
Ituralde was visiting Graendal in book six where she was commenting on how good she was at compulsion. Combine that with the fact that Tuon now has a firm grasp on the Seanchan and now Ituralde and his 300,000 man army are the bad guys that are stopping Rand from making the land one or two halves of one. In fact, I would say Ituralde is a general for the Dark One, he just doesn't know it yet or maybe even ever.<br /><br />I just can't see his not dying being important for the Lightside, seeing how he's an obstacle to the now good Seanchan and pretty soon he's going to be facing Rand's armies. It'd be odd if he chooses one invader over another.


created: 2006-04-15 21:28:49
subject: <b>Nice Job <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I think you did a good job.  Ituralde is as good a choice as any, and you point out some good reasons why.  And I like the idea of linking with Greandal, it's a good way for her to be exposed. <br /><br />Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-16 06:57:13
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
To i bore a hole,<br /><br /><b> But you never really prove that it is Ituralde. You make a good case for the need of a camp nearby, and for haste. But you never really pin it down as Ituralde specifically.<br /><br />It may very well be some lord in the borderland armies that gets hurt and none of the aes sedai know of the new healing. It could be Galad. I don't think so, but it stands to reason the same as Ituralde. <br /><br />I see two reasons for agreeing with you: 1- Ituralde is a really cool, new to the scene character; 2- The Graendal imperative. </b><br /><br />The person is only described as &quot;a man&quot;. Therefore it's of course somewhat difficult to <i> prove </i> that it is Ituralde.<br /><br />On the other hand, there aren't so many important men in the series who Egwene doesn't know and who don't have any channelers around who might Heal them. If my reasoning regarding the military camp and that there are two factions nearby (the sad and the joyful one) is right, the number is even lessened.  <br /><br />I think for plot reasons Ituralde simply makes the most sense. <br />We see in KoD that Arad Doman and the various fractions there become more and more central for the plot. My idea that Graendal's DF will attempt to kill Ituralde would be a nice way to bring her back onto the stage.<br /><br />But there is another reason which I maybe didn't elaborate enough in my theory.<br />To get a country Rand had normally to win the hearts of the people there and conquer the current rulers. Rand brought an army to Arad Doman to make order and commanded the Seafolk to provide the Domani with food.<br /><br />But Rand must still somehow convince Ituralde to follow him and become his Steward. <br />At the moment Ituralde has a large army with him and is fighting the growing Seanchan influence. Why shouldn&#8217;t he also fight Rand&#8217;s army in Arad Doman? They are after all a foreign army as well. <br /><br />I doubt that Rand would help Ituralde to defeat the Seanchan, because Rand needs the Seachan, too. But if Rand saves the life of a dying Ituralde, he could easily win him for his cause.<br /><br /><b> Dobraine and Bashere were attacked for their seals, not for their armies. Graendal might put a hit on Ituralde, but it will be different from the other hits. </b><br /><br />That&#8217;s correct, but technically there is no big difference if you sent a DF to steal something (and be prepared to kill the owner) or just to kill someone from the start. <br /><br />We know that Graendal in particular has many connections among DF. Thus she certainly had no problems to initiate it. And as I said, Graendal had good reasons to kill Ituralde.<br /><br /><b> Secondly, you say that the songs of joy and sadness come from the Domani AND the seanchean. I don't know about seanchean custom, but in the heat of battle (and you say that haste and speed are important) I doubt that the seanchean will allow the domani a stay to light a funeral bier for Ituralde. After all, a pyre creates a lot of smoke, and aren't there supposed to be nine out of ten raken searching for the man? The more I look at it, I think that Rand will make Ituralde a steward, but that Egwene's dream is about another man. </b><br /><br />I think the songs of joy and sadness are rather a poetic description that at the same time the Domani mourn and the Seanchan rejoice because of Iturlade&#8217;s condition.<br />It seems too absurd that there really will be people singing.<br /><br />The Seanchan alreay know where Ituralde's armies are. Therefore a pyre wouldn't really give away anything.<br /><br /><b> Ituralde says that he has a plan for everything short of the DR appearing. I don't see that as foreshadowing that he'll be put down by one of Graendal's DF's. The Wolf's plan is too good to be ruined by some attack by DF-mick-random. I like the idea of him pulling the seanchean into a stedding. I can't see his plotline getting shut down by an attack from the shadows. If anything, Rand's truce with the seanchean will end that war, and he'll be made steward. </b><br /><br />In the same PoV Ituralde also muses about his possible death, though. Graendal certainly isn't very pleased by Ituralde's activities. It makes sense that she plans to  eliminate him. Of course this could easily backfire on her.   <br /><br />Anyway, as I pointed out, Rand must somehow win Ituralde to his cause, and saving his life would probably be an easy way.<br /><br /><br />To LogainReborn,<br /><br /><b> I've recently been rereading COS and and trying to figure ths one out for myself. I had classified Ituralde as one of my possibilities but I'm not convinced it is him. Your theory makes sense, but I'm not sure we have enough information to really say with any certainty. I also had Furyk Karede on my list based on his interactions with Mat and his ties to Tuon. For the most part I've just been trying to weed out people whom Egwene would recognize, but who seem important. In closing, its a possibility we have so little information the possinilities are endless. </b><br /><br />Yes, indeed, we have little information. But the impact a dying Ituralde could have on the plot is evident, especially if Graendal is involved.<br /><br /><br />To barid,<br /><br /><b> Perhaps the songs of joy and sadness could be after a great battle won. Joy for victory, sadness for Ituralde who they think will die. </b><br /><br />I like this idea as well. <br /><br /><br />To Skeeve The Great,<br /><br /><b> Yes, The Little Wold makes sense. Although the songs of joy and sadness sounds like songs after great battle - joy for victory and sadness for losses. </b><br /><br />Egwene's Dream also reminds me a bit of Madoc Comadrin's saying:<br />&quot;The sweetness of victory and the bitterness of defeat are alike a knife of dreams.&quot;<br /><br /><br />To NothingNowhere,<br /><br /><b> Ituralde was visiting Graendal in book six where she was commenting on how good she was at compulsion. Combine that with the fact that Tuon now has a firm grasp on the Seanchan and now Ituralde and his 300,000 man army are the bad guys that are stopping Rand from making the land one or two halves of one. In fact, I would say Ituralde is a general for the Dark One, he just doesn't know it yet or maybe even ever.<br /><br />I just can't see his not dying being important for the Lightside, seeing how he's an obstacle to the now good Seanchan and pretty soon he's going to be facing Rand's armies. It'd be odd if he chooses one invader over another. </b><br /><br />Ituralde's PoV show that he isn't under Compulsion. As I said, Rand would win Iturlade as Steward of Arad Doman by saving his life. <br /><br /><br />And finally, thanks to scalius!<br />


created: 2006-04-16 17:29:06
subject: <b>King Alsalam is Graendal, yes?</b>
body:
The King of Arad Doman is named Alsalam and Itulralde obeys his written commands implicitly even though Itulralde thinks they are chaotic and unhelpful and the battles those orders led to are disasterous for his country.<br /><br />Yet he obeys. Except for Agelmar Jagad, Itulralde is the only great General who is still one hundred percent loyal to his King and Country. He does think that someone should check Alsalam's power, just as long as it's not Itulralde himself. And you don't think Graendal/Alsalam had an effect on him way back when? At the very least, he really should be suspicious of those strange orders coming from the back country marked with the King's seal while no one has seen the King. He seems to be the only great General who is asleep to politics while Bashere, Byrne and even the Aiel Chiefs seem to be able to reason these type of things out in their sleep.<br /><br />It's a subtle use of compulsion, blind obedience where there was once rational obedience but I can see it from Itulralde's own POV from Crossroads of Twilight.<br /><br />And as for following Rand, if he will only blindly obey Alsalam's orders then he will only follow Rand by the King's own order. That is, Graendal's order. And I don't see that happening, and besides, the Dark really could use a good General. Let them have this one.


created: 2006-04-16 18:34:56
subject: <b>I still think it's the Once and Future King thing.</b>
body:
It's a nice argument, but the precedent of Arthurs dying and being promised to return combined with the Randland ambivalence to the Dragon Reborn still has me thinking it's Rand.  If Egwene can't see a face she might not be able to put a name to him.  Though with Dreaming one can never be sure.  On the other hand, saying, &quot;everyone she knows and has Dreamed about was recognized&quot; is a little disingenuous; we only know the ones she DID recognize, not of any she FAILED to recognize that were nonetheless people she knew.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-16 20:10:32
subject: <b>to Etzel</b>
body:
Don't get me wrong, I think you did a good job on the importance of exposing Graendal. However, you say that Ituralde will be beholden unto Rand because he brings him back from the brink? I disagree. I think that one of Rand's ta'veren swirls would be more than sufficient to nab the wolf. Also, Rand has never been known for healing. All I can think of is Bela in the first book, and the failed attempt to heal the girl in the Stone in tSR. He might even be a really bad healer (some just lack certain skills). In which case, I think that his ta'veren abilities would be needed, and that they would remove a necessity for healing Ituralde.<br /><br />Additionally, there is too much foreshadowing of Ituralde's plan; namely, leading the seanchean into a trap. I think that he'll lead them into a stedding, or at least have the upperhand. I think the rub will be that Rand makes his truce with the seanchean, and that Ituralde will have to go along with it- that's the eventuality that he hasn't accounted for. <br /><br />Sorry to be a little off subject, but I don't see Ituralde as getting injured. His plan with the seanchean trap and the fact that Rand isn't known as a healer make me think that it's someone else.


created: 2006-04-17 05:11:41
subject: <b>Plausible, but....</b>
body:
I like every piece of logic up to, but not including, actually choosing Ituralde as the man. I see Ituralde as a possibility, but others are just as possible, such as:<br /><br />- King Alsalam himself - we still have no idea what his status is, nobody knows where he is. Maybe he is laying, deathly ill, in a wise woman's household in a small village, or something, and the dream comes to pass when Ituralde discovers his location. There are many other similar possibilities relating to Alsalam and Ituralde.<br /><br />- Beslan - Egwene hasn't met him, he is in a VERY sensitive location, a king in a seanchan-occupied land who also opposes the seanchan, albeit in secret. The joy is the Seanchan, and the sorrow is the Altarans. Beslan has no healers near him.<br /><br />- Mattin Stepaneos - he is currently in the tower, but what will come to pass in aMoL is uncertain, especially when Rand discovers that he is still alive. Not highly likely, but a possibility, nevertheless.<br /><br />- Either of the borderland Kings, both of whom are no doubt important, but not critical, to the Light.<br /><br />- Bashere, who Egwene is yet to meet, but is quite obviously important.<br /><br />- Noal Charin - another unlikely possibility, but he still fits the requirements.<br /><br />- Tallanvor - same as Noal.<br /><br />- Lews Therin - It could very well be a case of her seeing part of Rand, namely LTT, that may or may not &quot;die&quot; - this would be the most abstract interpretation, but possible.<br /><br />There are probably a few others, but these are the ones that come to mind within 10 minutes of thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-17 17:27:50
subject: <b>Maybe, but it's still only one of several possibilities</b>
body:
I like your reasoning that the narrow bed and pyre connote some kind of camp.  That&#8217;s the first really convincing point I&#8217;ve ever heard anyone make about this particular dream.  However, there are two things I&#8217;d like to note: First, the quote says that the man's survival is important, not that the man himself is important.  In other words, he&#8217;s not necessarily a significant or prominent person in a political or military sense.  It&#8217;s whatever will happen/not happen because of his death that makes him important.  Secondly, your claim that &#8216;important&#8217; is not a sufficiently strong word to connote a major character isn&#8217;t really convincing.  &#8216;Important&#8217; can have a whole range of meanings, from merely significant to crucial, essential, or vital.<br />Neither of those points disproves your theory, but I thought they were worth mentioning.<br />


created: 2006-04-18 17:25:00
subject: <b>Significance of funeral pyres</b>
body:
I wasn't convinced, but liked some of your logic. Esp. re: funeral pyres. You say that these are uncommon in the Westland, but are used by the rebels because they're near to Tar Valon. Well, if that's why they're used, wouldn't they be more likely to be used there than elsewhere? Further, do we know Kairen and Anaiya's nationality? If they're the same, pyres might be common in that culture, which might be a clue to who is the subject of the dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-18 19:32:19
subject: <b>The pyre is probably a custom rather than an inability to dig a grave.</b>
body:
All troops carry digging implements &#8211; how else will they make palisades and other fortifications or latrines? Or bury their dead? Even at Dumai&#8217;s Wells and Ingtar&#8217;s posse for the Horn the troops buried their dead. It is now late April in the series, so there should be no difficulty digging holes due to frozen ground.<br /><br />The only non-Shadowspawn cremation we have seen so far was Tamra&#8217;s and that was at her request and that did not qualify as a pyre. Historically in our world Norsemen, Romans and Indians had pyres. We know Shienarans, Sea Folk and Aiel don&#8217;t build pyres, but this leaves a wide choice for the dying man &#8211; a Saldaean like the doomed Bashere for instance (whom Egwene did not meet) or other Borderlander; someone from the western nations; Mattin Stepaneos (whom Egwene also had not met at that stage and who is from a swampy, water-logged city); or even a Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-04-19 05:04:27
subject: <b>Next replies</b>
body:
To NothingNowhere,<br /><br /><b> The King of Arad Doman is named Alsalam and Itulralde obeys his written commands implicitly even though Itulralde thinks they are chaotic and unhelpful and the battles those orders led to are disasterous for his country.<br /><br />Yet he obeys. Except for Agelmar Jagad, Itulralde is the only great General who is still one hundred percent loyal to his King and Country. He does think that someone should check Alsalam's power, just as long as it's not Itulralde himself. And you don't think Graendal/Alsalam had an effect on him way back when? At the very least, he really should be suspicious of those strange orders coming from the back country marked with the King's seal while no one has seen the King. He seems to be the only great General who is asleep to politics while Bashere, Byrne and even the Aiel Chiefs seem to be able to reason these type of things out in their sleep. <br /><br />It's a subtle use of compulsion, blind obedience where there was once rational obedience but I can see it from Itulralde's own POV from Crossroads of Twilight. <br /><br />And as for following Rand, if he will only blindly obey Alsalam's orders then he will only follow Rand by the King's own order. That is, Graendal's order. And I don't see that happening, and besides, the Dark really could use a good General. Let them have this one. </b><br /><br />Actually Ituralde thinks in CoT, prologue, that the King's strange orders are fatal and just achieve chaos in Arad Doman. That's indeed Graendal's work; probably Alsalam isn't alive anymore.<br /><br />If Graendal had Ituralde under her thumb, there would be no need to deceive him with false orders.<br />But the pact Ituralde made between Dragonsworn and nobles loyal to the King can't be in Graendal's interest; it lessens the chaos.  <br /><br />Therefore I believe that  she will attempt to kill Ituralde. That will bring Rand to him, who will probably let Nynaeve Heal him (maybe after three days being almost dead?).<br /><br />And all this might lead to the discovery that Graendal is Lady Basene, killed the King and manipulated Ituralde.<br />Then Iturlade will become Rand's Steward (and maybe later King) of Arad Doman.<br /><br />I really don't see Ituralde commanding Shadowspawn and DF armies at TG. That will be the task of the remaining Forsaken, especially Demandred, the DFA, and, in my view, SH.<br /><br /><br />To Morambar,  <br /><br /><b> It's a nice argument, but the precedent of Arthurs dying and being promised to return combined with the Randland ambivalence to the Dragon Reborn still has me thinking it's Rand. If Egwene can't see a face she might not be able to put a name to him. Though with Dreaming one can never be sure. On the other hand, saying, &quot;everyone she knows and has Dreamed about was recognized&quot; is a little disingenuous; we only know the ones she DID recognize, not of any she FAILED to recognize that were nonetheless people she knew. </b><br /><br />Egwene doesn't say she sees no face, though. She simply thinks the person is a man, while in every Dream about Rand or other persons she knows very well, she recognized them.<br /><br />Therefore I believe it's obvious that the dying man can't be Rand, also considering that Rand's life is <i> more than just important </i> before TG, and after TG not really important for the Light anymore.<br /><br /><br />To i bore a hole,<br /><br /><b> Don't get me wrong, I think you did a good job on the importance of exposing Graendal. However, you say that Ituralde will be beholden unto Rand because he brings him back from the brink? I disagree. I think that one of Rand's ta'veren swirls would be more than sufficient to nab the wolf. Also, Rand has never been known for healing. All I can think of is Bela in the first book, and the failed attempt to heal the girl in the Stone in tSR. He might even be a really bad healer (some just lack certain skills). In which case, I think that his ta'veren abilities would be needed, and that they would remove a necessity for healing Ituralde. </b><br /><br />Just ta'veren wasn't enough to get every country or man on Rand's side. He had to fight them or win their hearts.<br /><br />And as I said in the theory, of course Nynaeve or Flinn will Heal Ituralde on Rand's command. Nynaeve makes rather sense, considering that a Healing from an Aes Sedai is more normal than by an AM. <br /><br />Maybe it is also foreshadowed by the comments about Healing someone who is three days dead, if Ituralde is on the brink of death for three days.<br /><br /><b> Additionally, there is too much foreshadowing of Ituralde's plan; namely, leading the seanchean into a trap. I think that he'll lead them into a stedding, or at least have the upperhand. I think the rub will be that Rand makes his truce with the seanchean, and that Ituralde will have to go along with it- that's the eventuality that he hasn't accounted for. <br /><br />Sorry to be a little off subject, but I don't see Ituralde as getting injured. His plan with the seanchean trap and the fact that Rand isn't known as a healer make me think that it's someone else. </b><br /><br />Well, Ituralde&#8217;s plan is mentioned in KoD, epilogue. <br />The Seanchan discuss that Ituralde surprised and trapped the Seanchan army with his two armies. He made them too furious to realize such a trap. Nevertheless the Seanchan believe the outcome is not yet decided. There certainly will be battles, and Ituralde might be wounded.<br /><br />But as I said, I like the idea better that Graendal sends DF or a Gray Man to kill Ituralde in his camp which is certainly not such difficult.<br /><br /><br />To Aielyn,<br /><br /><b> I like every piece of logic up to, but not including, actually choosing Ituralde as the man. I see Ituralde as a possibility, but others are just as possible, such as: </b><br /><br />Ok, lets see if these possibilities make more sense, especially for the plot.<br /><br /><b> King Alsalam himself - we still have no idea what his status is, nobody knows where he is. Maybe he is laying, deathly ill, in a wise woman's household in a small village, or something, and the dream comes to pass when Ituralde discovers his location. There are many other similar possibilities relating to Alsalam and Ituralde. </b><br /><br />Alsalam was obviously abducted by Graendal and is probably dead by now.<br />Besides, how could Alsalam come into a wise woman&#8217;s household and all people outside know about it? Why are some sad, some joyful?<br /><br />I don&#8217;t think Alsalam makes so much sense.<br /><br /><b> Beslan - Egwene hasn't met him, he is in a VERY sensitive location, a king in a seanchan-occupied land who also opposes the seanchan, albeit in secret. The joy is the Seanchan, and the sorrow is the Altarans. Beslan has no healers near him. </b><br /><br />As a King it seems strange that Beslan would lay in a narrow bed. Also the funeral pyre doesn&#8217;t seem to fit really. <br />Besides, if the Seanchan were such glad if Beslan died, they had already killed and replaced him like the Tarabon ruler.<br /><br /><b> Mattin Stepaneos - he is currently in the tower, but what will come to pass in aMoL is uncertain, especially when Rand discovers that he is still alive. Not highly likely, but a possibility, nevertheless. </b><br /><br />Well, the WT has many Healers and strong *angreal. They could even Heal Mat from the SL influence. Therefore I doubt they would let Mattin lay dying in a narrow bed.<br />Also, why do people know about this, some are sad and some would enjoy his death? <br />Finally, I don&#8217;t think his life is such important anymore. Rand has Illian and a loyal Steward there.<br /><br /><b> Either of the borderland Kings, both of whom are no doubt important, but not critical, to the Light. </b><br /><br />Again, the songs of joy and sorrow don&#8217;t fit so well. <br />Besides, they have 13 AS in their camp. At least a few should be able to Heal.<br /><br /><b> Bashere, who Egwene is yet to meet, but is quite obviously important. </b><br /><br />Yes, but of course he is with Nynaeve and Flinn, possibly the two best Healers around. <br />The narrow bed, the funeral pyre and the songs also don&#8217;t fit really.<br /><br /><b> Noal Charin - another unlikely possibility, but he still fits the requirements. <br /><br />Tallanvor - same as Noal. </b><br /><br />Ok, you say that both are unlikely. I agree. <br />Ituralde, on the other hand, makes some sense for the plot and one can easily consider a situation that fits with the Dream. <br />Thus Ituralde is simply the better choice. <br /><br /><b> Lews Therin - It could very well be a case of her seeing part of Rand, namely LTT, that may or may not &quot;die&quot; - this would be the most abstract interpretation, but possible. </b><br /><br />Hmm, don&#8217;t think that fits with the Dream. <br />Normally Egwene&#8217;s Dreams aren&#8217;t <i> that </i> abstract. That means the dying man will certainly be a physical person and lay somewhere almost dying, while apparently some other people already celebrate his death, others are concerned.   <br /><br /><b> There are probably a few others, but these are the ones that come to mind within 10 minutes of thought. </b><br /><br />In my view compared to Ituralde, your suggestions seem rather far fetched, especially considering the plot relevance and certain aspects of the Dream.<br /><br /><br />To Youker,<br /><br /><b> I like your reasoning that the narrow bed and pyre connote some kind of camp. That&#8217;s the first really convincing point I&#8217;ve ever heard anyone make about this particular dream. However, there are two things I&#8217;d like to note: First, the quote says that the man's survival is important, not that the man himself is important. In other words, he&#8217;s not necessarily a significant or prominent person in a political or military sense. It&#8217;s whatever will happen/not happen because of his death that makes him important. Secondly, your claim that &#8216;important&#8217; is not a sufficiently strong word to connote a major character isn&#8217;t really convincing. &#8216;Important&#8217; can have a whole range of meanings, from merely significant to crucial, essential, or vital.<br />Neither of those points disproves your theory, but I thought they were worth mentioning. </b><br /><br />Regarding your first point; that the man survives is imporant, indeed. <br />But that normally means that also the person will somehow be important then. Apparently many know the dying man (some would like his death, some not) which also speaks for a certain importance of the person.<br /><br />Finally, I believe it simply makes more sense for the plot that the dying man is a relevant person in the Westlands. <br /><br />And on your second point. Another Dream of Egwene is about Mat: <br />&#8220;Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended &#8230; She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&#8221; (PoD, ch.15)<br /><br />If you compare this to the Dream of the dying man, Mat&#8217;s decision seems rather crucial for the world, than the man&#8217;s life which is just &#8220;important&#8221;. I think that shows that Egwene can distinguish between kinds of importance.<br /><br /><br />To didionite,<br /><br /><b> I wasn't convinced, but liked some of your logic. Esp. re: funeral pyres. You say that these are uncommon in the Westland, but are used by the rebels because they're near to Tar Valon. Well, if that's why they're used, wouldn't they be more likely to be used there than elsewhere? Further, do we know Kairen and Anaiya's nationality? If they're the same, pyres might be common in that culture, which might be a clue to who is the subject of the dream. </b><br /><br />It really seems that it&#8217;s everywhere in the Westlands normal to bury corpses, though funeral pyres are known. Kairen was from Andor, but dead people are normally buried there, too (e.g. Perrin&#8217;s family). <br />I think this rather implies that the concrete situation demands a pyre, not a grave.  <br /><br /><br />To linda_sedai,<br /><br /><b> All troops carry digging implements &#8211; how else will they make palisades and other fortifications or latrines? Or bury their dead? Even at Dumai&#8217;s Wells and Ingtar&#8217;s posse for the Horn the troops buried their dead. It is now late April in the series, so there should be no difficulty digging holes due to frozen ground. </b><br /><br />I don&#8217;t think that the Domani wouldn&#8217;t be able to dig a grave for Ituralde. <br />However, if his military camp is somewhere in the south of Arad Doman without a city close by, he might not want to be buried there, but rather be burned. Maybe he even fears that the Seanchan might violate his grave.<br /><br /><b> The only non-Shadowspawn cremation we have seen so far was Tamra&#8217;s and that was at her request and that did not qualify as a pyre. Historically in our world Norsemen, Romans and Indians had pyres. We know Shienarans, Sea Folk and Aiel don&#8217;t build pyres, but this leaves a wide choice for the dying man &#8211; a Saldaean like the doomed Bashere for instance (whom Egwene did not meet) or other Borderlander; someone from the western nations; Mattin Stepaneos (whom Egwene also had not met at that stage and who is from a swampy, water-logged city); or even a Seanchan. </b><br /><br />Even if you were right, and it&#8217;s simply a cultural thing (maybe also Domani), we have to ask again, whose life would be important for the plot. <br />I expressed above why I don&#8217;t think the Dream fits with Bashere (though I think he <i> will </i> die), the Borderlander Kings or Mattin, and I don&#8217;t see any such important Seanchan man, yet.


created: 2006-04-20 10:33:10
subject: <b>Good Case</b>
body:
You do make a very good case. however I'm not vertain U r correct. Remeber a veiwing that Min had of Rand about him and a man she didn't recognise joining together but only one would survive. There is some speculation as to who that other man was though. Some people say that other man was Lews Therin where others say he was Moridin. Personally I think it is LTT because of the ongoing struggle between Rand and LTT for control particularly when there is urgent channeling to be done. I think perhaps the unknown man from Egwene's Dream may be LTT. Min said during her veiwing that only one would survive and it is important that the dragon himself be there to face the dark one.


created: 2006-04-20 12:22:58
subject: <b>Well Robbo, I know what you mean, but...</b>
body:
Just a little backstory on my WoT reading here, quickly.  I'd read the first three books just before graduating High School years ago and didn't really pick the series up again in earnest until last summer.  Since then, I read from LoC to KoD am now rereading my way up through book 2 again.<br /><br />I say this because I used to think as you did - up to a certain point.  I was certain while reading last fall that the &quot;other man&quot; in Min's viewing was LTT.  And that it probably was the same deal w/ Egwene's dream.  I would've banked on it... and there are probably a lot of other folks who felt the same way until recent events.  (books 10 &amp; 11)<br /><br />And then it all changed, yet it makes sense.  Since ACoS, Rand has had a connection with Moridin, and yet I ignored that in light of Min's &quot;merging&quot; vision.  While Rand does need to somehow come to terms w/ LTT in his dual-personality-yet-one-soul situation, I don't think it'll put him in that dying man's bed.  If anything, that could happen with the Moridin scenario.  <br /><br />Oh- and just a side note to Etzel.  I'd like to say how much I've appreciated your theories.  I may not post on the boards, but I usually check/comment quickpolls and then read a few theories.  They're real brain fuel when it comes to musing about WoT and its possible story threads.  Regardless of where I stand on any of them, they're always well thought-out and interesting to read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-23 05:51:03
subject: <b>The trouble with lighting a pyre when you are close to enemy territory</b>
body:
is that they are going to see it, especially if they have aerial reconnaissance. This doesn't seem a terribly good idea to me, whether they are near the Tarabon border or are in the mountains.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-04-24 05:27:43
subject: <b>Once again, replies</b>
body:
To RobboCop,<br /><br /><b> You do make a very good case. however I'm not vertain U r correct. Remeber a veiwing that Min had of Rand about him and a man she didn't recognise joining together but only one would survive. There is some speculation as to who that other man was though. Some people say that other man was Lews Therin where others say he was Moridin. Personally I think it is LTT because of the ongoing struggle between Rand and LTT for control particularly when there is urgent channeling to be done. I think perhaps the unknown man from Egwene's Dream may be LTT. Min said during her veiwing that only one would survive and it is important that the dragon himself be there to face the dark one. </b><br /><br />Like nuclearsidewalk said, I believe after KoD it's pretty much an indisputable matter that Moridin must be the other man in Min's viewing.  <br />I don't see how Egwene's Dream could refer to LTT, after all he isn't a physical being anymore like the dying man in the narrow bed.<br /><br /><br />To nuclearsidewalk,<br /><br />Thanks for your kind words! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To linda_sedai,<br /><br /><b> The trouble with lighting a pyre when you are close to enemy territory is that they are going to see it, especially if they have aerial reconnaissance. This doesn't seem a terribly good idea to me, whether they are near the Tarabon border or are in the mountains. </b><br /><br />As I said in another reply, I think this point is  irrelevant.<br />We learn in KoD, epilogue, that the Seanchan know now where Ituralde's armies are. Ituralde has surrounded the Seanchan; he doesn't hide or flee anymore. The only question is if Ituralde's men can defeat the outnumbered Seanchan army.<br /><br />So, normally these armies will eventually fight. <br />I can't predict the timeline, if Ituralde will be wounded before the first clash (e.g. by a DF), during this battle (by a Seanchan) or after it, but the danger of being found by raken due to lighting a pyre is moot anyway.


created: 2006-04-24 19:26:13
subject: <b>Not sure.</b>
body:
It is an interesting theory, but I am not convinced that the man is Ituralde.<br /><br /><b> The funeral pyre is unusual; normally dead people are buried in the Westlands. </b><br /><br />I'm not certain this is right - In NS &#8216;Changes&#8217; &#8220;According to Tamra&#8217;s wishes, her body was consumed by flows of Fire, and her ashes scattered across the grounds of the White Tower&#8221;.  There were no comments about this being unusual, so perhaps the practice is more widespread than we realise.<br /><br />I like your idea of the camp, and this would also explain why the voices were clearly heard if he was in a tent with thin walls.  My reaction when I read the passage &quot;and voices raised songs of joy and sadness&quot; was that it was similar to what happens when a monarch dies.  &#8220;The King is dead.  Long live the King&#8221;.  This combines grief at a death, and happiness at the accession of a new king/queen.<br /><br />And I wondered if the funeral pyre being prepared in advance of the man&#8217;s death might imply that he was somewhere hot, where bodies have to be disposed of quickly because of the climate.<br />


created: 2006-04-26 03:42:02
subject: <b>To galore</b>
body:
<b> I'm not certain this is right - In NS &#8216;Changes&#8217; &#8220;According to Tamra&#8217;s wishes, her body was consumed by flows of Fire, and her ashes scattered across the grounds of the White Tower&#8221;. There were no comments about this being unusual, so perhaps the practice is more widespread than we realise. </b><br /><br />That such pyres aren't unknown is already made clear by the fact that Egwene knows what a funeral pyre is in her Dream.<br /><br />It's correct that Tamra wished to be burned, but there wasn't any pyre. <br />Normally corpses are buried, as far as we know. <br />As I pointed out in my theory, the only time in the series when it's mentioned that human corpses are actually burned on funeral pyres is in KoD, namely Anaiya and Kairen. <br /><br />I believe the special situation of the Rebels in a camp must be the reason for this, since Anaiya and Kairen certainly didn't expect to die and expressed any wish regarding a funeral.<br /><br /><b> I like your idea of the camp, and this would also explain why the voices were clearly heard if he was in a tent with thin walls. My reaction when I read the passage &quot;and voices raised songs of joy and sadness&quot; was that it was similar to what happens when a monarch dies. &#8220;The King is dead. Long live the King&#8221;. This combines grief at a death, and happiness at the accession of a new king/queen. </b><br /><br />Well if you agree with the idea that the setting of the Dream is a tent in a camp, but have the hunch that the man must be a King, it points most likely to one of the two Borderlander Kings, Easar of Shienar or Paitar of Arafel.<br /><br />However, we know from TGH, ch.10, that especially Shienarans want to be buried, to feel the last embrace of the mother. That rules Easar out.<br /><br />Besides that, both Kings have a high reputation and no apparent well-known successor.<br />Therefore I doubt that any Borderlander would cheer if one of their famous Kings is dying.<br /><br />Finally, we recently discussed on the WoTMB the pattern of the new, often young rulers in the series.<br />Considering this, it seems rather important or necessary that the old Kings, Easar and Paitar, will eventually die, than that they survive much longer.<br /><br /><b> And I wondered if the funeral pyre being prepared in advance of the man&#8217;s death might imply that he was somewhere hot, where bodies have to be disposed of quickly because of the climate. </b><br /><br />That wasn't the case in the Rebel Aes Sedai's camp, though. <br /><br />I think the building of the funeral pyre before the actual death shall simply demonstrate that the man is such close to death that there is normally no hope that he could survive any longer. That means, at least if Nynaeve or Flinn aren't around...


created: 2006-04-26 06:33:50
subject: <b>no no no no!</b>
body:
Its obviously Dobraine. He was dying! And the people happy he was dying were those planning to take his place as top of Cairhien. And remember what Min said? That Rand cant afford to lose Dobraine or Bashere. I cant believe people can miss the bleeding obvious!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-26 08:48:31
subject: <b>To mjasghar</b>
body:
<b> Its obviously Dobraine. He was dying! And the people happy he was dying were those planning to take his place as top of Cairhien. And remember what Min said? That Rand cant afford to lose Dobraine or Bashere. I cant believe people can miss the bleeding obvious! </b><br /><br />Dobraine almost died in CoT and is important for Rand, that's correct.<br /><br />However, Dobraine's recovery is quite unspectacular and happens entirely off screen during CoT, so that it's only casually mentioned in KoD that he is apparently fit again (Rand gave Dobraine orders concerning Arad Doman).<br /><br />During his recovery a funeral pyre is never mentioned. It's also never shown that there are especially glad or sad people close to Dobraine. Finally, the narrow bed doesn't fit with the bed of a high-ranking noble in a palace.<br />That means the particular elements of Egwene's Dream about the dying man obviously aren't fulfilled.<br /><br />Besides, it's seems likely that Egwene would recognize Dobraine. After all she spent some months in Cairhien in TFoH &amp; LoC and often visited the Sun Palace. <br /><br />Therefore it doesn't make much sense that Egwene's Dream was about Dobraine.


created: 2006-04-28 19:41:57
subject: <b>Caught Me by Surprise There</b>
body:
With all the talk about Anaiya and Kairen and the rebel camp, I could've sworn you were going to say Gareth Bryne.  Unfortunately, I don't have all the books so I couldn't find exactly where Egwene meets Bryne, but aside from that, he does match everything like the happy voices - the AS in the Tower - and the sad voices - the rebels.  He would definently be important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-30 12:55:29
subject: <b>Yes, I wasn't Sure About That</b>
body:
Like I said, I don't have all the books, so I couldn't figure out exactly where Egwene meets Bryne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 10:38:38
subject: <b>Anyone consider...</b>
body:
That the dream will never happen? It involves no ta'veren. This lowers accuracy rate. Combine this with the fact that this happens after the DO begins to unravel the pattern and I feel that it is only slighly more likely to happen than a normal dream. That's just me though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-22 01:26:21
subject: <b>Graendals last orders</b>
body:
Something to think about. <br /><br />1. The last orders that Graendal tried to send to Ituralde were supposed to have blood on them and the messenger was supposed to be wounded to make the orders look more important. <br /><br />2. The orders or message that Ituralde held up and showed to the other leaders, did not have blood on them. RJ would not have forgotten that little bit. <br /><br />3. If the orders that Ituralde held up did not come from Graendal. They might be proof that Alsalam was alive and knew that someone was forging orders.


created: 2007-06-23 16:43:20
subject: <b>not sure</b>
body:
im not sure it means ituralde. i always thought it ment rand. rand has a habit of disguising himself and he is going to fake his death. <br /><br /><br />i cant remeber off hand but im sure there is mention somewhere about a viewing or prophesy or something that says that rand is going to taken on the guise of someone else maybe he does it when he fakes his death?<br /><br />maybe egwene sees rand in is disguise apparently dying. people outside are happy and sad because they have found out that the dying man is really rand.<br /><br />all the dreams and viewing about the girly threesome being in a boat all say that they are with a man on a funeral pyre, none say its rand but we know it will be. i think that this is the same kind of thing.<br />


created: 2007-07-04 01:42:45
subject: <b>I think it be Valen Luca</b>
body:
itll be luca or noone will every guess<br /><br />just considering the quote a see<br /><br />1 narrow bed<br />2 man egwene doesn't know<br />3 His people will sing and no doubt some will be joyed and some sad<br />4 no one would be around to heal him<br />5 Why not?<br /><br />1 I figured a narrow bed meant boat, wagon or inn.<br />On a boat someone would be sent to the sea or buried on land probably.<br />Wagon narrowed it down very much.<br />Inn seemed unlikely for important people had camps.<br /><br />Maybe im overy reading the narrow bed but why narrow?<br /><br />2 Egwene proably will never meet him<br /> He has escorted many important poeple. Enough that someone might want to question and kill him. Maybe they'll leave him too alive.<br />Important enough to sing about yet. noone thinks he'll live.<br /><br />4 No soilder would consider another dead untill he stopped breathing. Lords don't get mourned often these days, the game of houses.<br /><br />i just got a feeling the man won't be new....<br /><br /><br />


created: 2008-05-09 00:19:03
subject: <b>one thing</b>
body:
<br />&quot;Considering that the man is important and that some people are saddened by the prospect of his death, it seems unlikely that there are yet Aes Sedai or Asha&#8217;man nearby who can Heal the man. It seems possible that he will be Healed later, though.&quot;<br /><br />OR it could be a near fatal wound that cant be healed because some/most/whatever energy comes from the person being healed and the wound has left them very week and the body must heal itself.<br /><br />OR no one is around who is a strong healer.  maybe a trolloc (sp?) blade hit him, they can be almost as bas as a fades...


created: 2006-05-02 06:01:31
subject: <b>Very nice!</b>
body:
I agree that Lanfear's punishment seems a bit too harsh and undeserved in view of her deeds and compared to the other transmigrated Forsaken and Moghedien. <br />Some people even believe that the partial lose of Lanfear's OP strength was a punishment.<br /><br />I especially like your interpretation of the scene between Moridin and Cyndane at the Forsaken Tea Party. <br />By pointing at his heart, Moridin might indeed allude to Lanfear's intervention in the Stone which led to his death. <br /><br />We saw in Moridin's PoV in PoD, prologue, that he is still furious about his death in the Stone. <br />And in PoD, ch.1, Moridin considers that &quot;he disliked people meddling with his carefully laid plans. Those who did so and lived, lived to pay.&quot;<br /><br />That would fit with your idea that Moridin took revenge on Lanfear and wanted to have her hummiliated.<br /><br />I'm convinced! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-05-02 10:37:06
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
And Etzel bolstered your conclusions.<br /><br />I hope AMoL will bring the answer, but also expect that both Cyndane and Moghedien will die at Moridin`s hand at his moment of defeat.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 11:19:17
subject: <b>Excellent!</b>
body:
I hadn't ever really considered Lanfear's involvement in how the end of TDR played out, but I think what you suggest is very plausible.  And it may very well have contributed to the DO's decision to have Lanfear Mindtrapped (more on that below).<br /><br />Like Etzel, I also like how you tie that in with Moridin's comments in the Coffee Hour scene in WH - it makes that scene all the more potent, in that context.  (And Etzel tying that in with Moridin's thoughts in PoD is also a very good point.)<br /><br />I also agree that Lanfear was not killed by the 'finn.  My personal opinion is that Lanfear was burned out when Moiraine tackled her through the doorway (it fits with her thoughts that she wasn't as strong as she had been BEFORE the 'finn held her - the thoughts suggesting that she may have been unable to channel (i.e. burned out) WHILE the 'finn held her).  So the Shadow (Moridin or SH) killed her (either while she was still in finnland, or immediately after rescuing her), not to punish her, but rather to transfer her soul into a new body that was capable of channeling, thereby restoring her ability to channel.  And, for some reason, that process of killing and restoring made her weaker in the power (I don't think she was made weaker as punishment, either - the DO would not lessen the effectiveness of one of his minions, especially if she was to be controlled through a Mindtrap).  In other words, I think if Lanfear had not been burned out, and instead had been rescued from the 'finn alive and with her full strength intact, she'd have been Mindtrapped without being killed first, and without having her strength reduced.  Like Moghedien was.<br /><br />The one part where I disagree with you a little is on the extent of Lanfear's &quot;betrayal&quot; of the Shadow.  In my mind, Lanfear's betrayal was greater than Moghedien's.  First, I think the DO considers how she arranged for Asmodean to teach Rand as a betrayal.  Yes, Ishamael offered to teach Rand himself, but only if Rand turned to the Shadow first.  Lanfear placed no such caveat on her offer, and in essence was responsible for creating a stronger enemy.  But, aside from that, what she showed through her behavior from TGH to FoH was that she was more concerned with her own goals, especially those related to Rand, than she was with the Shadow's goals.  Simply put, she could not be trusted to act in the Shadow's best interests (certainly her comment to Rand that they could challenge the Great Lord with the Choedan Kal was the ultimate evidence of that).  Whereas, for all Moghedien's failures, I would not say the same thing about her.  Therefore, Lanfear's betrayal was the greater. <br /><br />The bottom line is, I think it's the DO's decision to have someone Mindtrapped, not Moridin's.  So, I think the primary reason Lanfear was Mindtrapped was because the DO no longer trusted her to act in His best interests.  Her role in Ishamael's demise in TDR may have contributed to the DO's mistrust, but I don't think it was the sole (or even primary) reason the DO had her Mindtrapped.  After all, we've been told that the DO encourages competition between his minions, and presumably that would include anyone &quot;competing&quot; with Ishamael.  Certainly Moridin wasn't punished for helping Rand against Sammael at the end of ACoS, and that doesn't seem much different from what you suggest Lanfear did for Rand at the end of TDR.<br /><br />So, while I think Moridin is definitely exacting his revenge on Lanfear for her interference now that he has control of her, I don't believe that was why Lanfear earned her Mindtrap.<br /><br />But, that's really a minor point.  I agree with most of what you suggested.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 11:57:37
subject: <b>a couple weaknesses</b>
body:
I'm not sure about this but I commend you for coming up with something new to talk about. I have to agree with the last post in that I also feel that Lanfear's betrayal by teaching Rand was far greater than any of the others.  As far as Balthamel and Aginor go, they didn't really betray the Dark One, they just failed.  Moghedien did betray the Dark One by teaching those who would oppose him but apparently she also did some &quot;good by accident&quot;.  What this &quot;good&quot; was I am still not sure but I have a few ideas if I ever get time to put together a well researched theory.  I'm not convinced Lanfear had a hand in Ishmael's death although it certainly is plausible. The problem is, as you referenced and we all know, Rand has LTT guiding him and doesn't know what he does quite frequently. Her betrayal in any case was far greater than Moghedien's.  She helped teach THE Dragon, not a small group of his friends, the head of the opposition.  Moreover, she most likely did it without the Dark One's consent, something which I do not think Ishmael ever would have done.  I still think the heart gesture at the tea party was an allusion to the mindtrap resting beneath Moridin's shirt.  Cyndane was getting loud and out of hand.  She needed a reminder of exactly where she stood and how tenuous her position was. <br /><br />In any case she was always treacherous and Ishmael always knew this.  I remember a scene in one of the earlier books in which he openly questioned her dedication to the cause. As for her being killed and the issue of her strength, I think you're right on track.  The unpleasantness of death and reincarnation coupled with a loss of some of her former power seems to be a fitting punishment for her sins and provides some assurance that she won't stray.  I still however have somewhat of a problem with the reference to the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn regarding her strength.  Why would she refer to her time there in the same breath as her former strength if they had nothing to do with the reduction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 12:21:22
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
I agree with your conclusions minus one - I've never felt that Lanfear's punishment outstripped her crime. This is the DO we're talking about, harsh punishments are expected. The revenge, well that's just bonus.<br /><br />Anyway, where does the pony fit into all of this? It seems to be a glaring omission.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 13:34:06
subject: <b>I agree with the above.</b>
body:
Lanfear's crimes were greatest of all. As has been mentioned, Ba'alzamon would only teach Rand if he served, while Lanfear wanted him as an ally, to challenge Shai'tan himself, she mentions at one point.<br /><br />Also, note that it has always been Shai'tan who names the reincarnated Forsaken. He did not name Cyndane &quot;Last Chance&quot; for the heck of it. The mindtrap isn't just for Moridin's pleasure. Lanfear has proven herself a treacherous hag, much worse than Asmodean, truly. So I wonder, since Lanfear was reincarnated, why wasn't Asmodean?<br /><br />Your thoughts on Lanfear's aid in the dreamworld are interesting though. By all accounts, Ba'alzamon was more skilled in <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i> than Rahvin, so how come Rand seems to be doing better in <i>The Dragon Reborn</i> than <i>The Fires of Heaven</i>?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 13:56:41
subject: <b>Note on Asmodean, Cyndane, Mogehedien</b>
body:
This occurred to me after my last post.  Being reborn in a different body seems to me to be related more to power and ability than the capacity for betrayal.  After all, a mindtrap will control the most treacherous personality and make them useful for the shadow.  Lanfear did what she did of her own volition and no one could ever characterize her as weak, either in the power or in will.  Moghedien on the other hand was not only captured but also gave in quite readily although she did resist in her own way.  Her only saving grace was that she happened to do something useful in spite of herself  Asmodean was forced in to teaching Rand so in this respect his betrayal (and ambition) was less than Lanfear's.  He was probably not given another body only because his weakness made him of limited usefulness.  Recall the DO quotes with regard to Moghedien (&quot;my chosen are always the strongest, but you let yourself be captured&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />and Asmodean (&quot;twisted by his weakness&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  <br /><br />The mindtrap is for controlling those of questionable reliability but of potential usefulness.  The final death awaits those who are pretty much useless to the Shadow and may do it harm through their own weakness.  Aginor and Balthamel were neither weak nor disloyal, they simply got themselves killed. They could be trusted both in ability and in loyalty to serve a useful purpose despite their deaths.  Had they not been balefired, Rahvin and Bel'al would probably have been treated in much the same way I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 22:03:42
subject: <b>Notes on Various Points</b>
body:
1) I've seen it argued before that because Cyndane thinks the Finn &quot;held&quot; her, that must mean she was killed by her own people.  However, her thinking she was held and her having died as a result of being held are not mutually exclusive.  The only thing that &quot;held&quot; proves is that she was not instantly killed when she fell through the doorway.<br /><br />2) Why would Lanfear have hidden from Rand the fact that she helped him kill Ishamael?  She wanted Rand to feel dependant on her for guidance and protection, so it would only seem logical for her to mention that she had saved his butt back there.<br /><br />3) I just can't see Moridin, the Dark One's best chum, Mr. True Believer, zorching the Shadow's second-strongest servant over exactly the sort of petty grudge that he's been trying to get the other Forsaken to lay aside since his return.  Jordan made it clear in QotW that the DO has stopped using death as a punishment for Forsaken because he can't afford to have them taken out of the game while his minions seek out a suitable body to stick them in.  Would Moridin do something as wasteful as knocking off one of his colleagues when he almost certainly didn't have his boss's permission?<br /><br />4) Maybe this is just me, but if I were Moridin, and I wanted revenge on Lanfear, I would rather mindtrap her in her original body so that all the others could see what she'd been reduced to and watch her bow and scrape and do my bidding.  Not only would it be satisfying, but it would also be a useful object lesson for the rest of the group.


created: 2006-05-02 22:17:29
subject: <b>Okay, I only read the first line, but come on...</b>
body:
... if ANYONE deserved it, it's HER!  What exactly did she do to help the Shadow since being released?  She was working her personal agenda the entire time, and engineered Asmodean's betrayal and Rand's One Power training.  She suggested that Rand use the Choedan Kal against the Dark One, and tried to turn him against Rahvin, which ended the Shadow's control over Andor.  Then, she tried to kill Rand for purely personal reasons, when so far as anyone knows, he was still hands off.<br /><br />Tell me, if you please, what reason the Dark One had to bring her back in the first place, aside from her being one of less than a dozen people with AoL training?  Cyndane might count herself lucky she is allowed out of Moridin's sight.<br /><br />Gonna go read the rest, to see if some of this is clarified.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 22:44:52
subject: <b>Okay, read it now. LOTS of over-thinking and flights of fancy</b>
body:
<b>Lanfear lost her life and was mindtrapped. The question is therefore, why was Lanfear&#8217;s punishment so much greater than the other Forsaken? If we look at her deeds&#8230;</b><br /><br />Because Moghedian achieved about as much as Lanfear, and she had Nynaeve and Elayne showing up to mess up her plans by accident.<br /><br /><b>1. She tried to kill the Dragon Reborn &#8211; this was not forbidden at the time, and Ishamael tried several times himself, as did other Forsaken.</b><br /><br />She flipped out, and tried to kill him for the most stupid, petty reason possible.  The other Forsaken at least tried because he was an enemy and a threat to their work with the Shadow.  Lanfear dropped in out of the blue, and went into a rejection-revenge trip.<br /><br /><b>2. She captured another Forsaken and forced him to teach Rand &#8211; although Moghedien was punished for teaching the forces of the Light, this is apparently not the same as teaching the Dragon Reborn. Ishamael blatantly wanted to teach the Dragon Reborn in the first three books, and the Dark One would not be upset if Lanfear forced someone to teach Rand. There was always the chance that she would convert him to the Shadow, which she reveals is her plan in TSR anyway.</b><br /><br />Ishamael OFFERED to teach Rand.  There is no evidence that he wanted him to learn, except as Ishamael's tool.  That was only offered to Rand as an enticement to serve Ba'alzamon.  And why <i>did</i> Rand &quot;accept&quot; Lanfear's offer when &quot;he had been offered as much&quot; from Ishamael?  BECAUSE IT WAS ON <i>RAND'S</i> TERMS, and <i>not</i> the Shadow's.  So she GAVE AWAY one of Ishamael's best bargaining chips!<br /><br /><b>Summary <br />1. Lanfear&#8217;s punishment was disproportionate to Moghedien, Aginor and Balthamel&#8217;s punishments for betrayal and failure, and for less cause. Moridin seems to have taken a far more personal and severe stance against Lanfear compared to the other three Forsaken who failed to some degree.</b><br /><br />Well, the other three did not really accomplish anything, but let's see whose downfall was the most humiliating, not to mention embarrassing for the Shadow's team.<br /><br />Ba'althamel - Killed by the Green Man in a place made especially for him, while he was all rotted and decrepit.<br /><br />Aginor - defeated by the Dragon Reborn, weilding the Eye of the World (other feats accomplished with that advantage - defeating Ishamael, destroying a Trolloc army).<br /><br />Moghedian - managed to survive capture by the most powerful woman serving the Light, though she was caught on her own ground.<br /><br />Lanfear - while weilding an angreal, this Level 1 channeler, was caught by a Level 10 woman, and defeated!  The others fell to channelers equal or stronger, not a NINE LEVEL difference!  While using an ANGREAL!  <br /><br /><b>2. Lanfear may have had a direct hand in Ishamael&#8217;s defeat and death in the Stone of Tear.</b><br /><br />Bah.  This &quot;Theory&quot; is built on ANOTHER theory, which is COMPLETELY unsubstantiated.  Lanfear was secretly fixing everything for Rand (in The Dragon Reborn, BTW) when he fought Ishamael?!<br /><br /><b>3. Ishamael was aware of this, and set out for revenge as soon as he was reborn as Moridin.</b><br /><br />Assuming Wild Leap of Logic Number One is true.<br /><br /><b>4. Moridin exacted personal revenge against Lanfear for what she did, by killing her (or ordering her death) and mindtrapping her.</b><br /><br />Wild Leap of Logic Number Two, assuming the mindtrap was Moridin's idea.  We saw it done to Moghedian with no other Forsaken's participation, so why would you assume it was Moridin's agenda for Lanfear?<br /><br /><b>5. Prediction for AMoL &#8211; Moridin will reveal his hand in Cyndane&#8217;s death, and that her mindtrap was a punishment for her direct intervention against him when he was Ishamael. Of course, this would provide Cyndane an incentive for revenge too.</b><br /><br />Whatever. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-02 23:07:33
subject: <b>A few comments....</b>
body:
I believe Lanfear was indeed killed by the 'Finns, for a few reasons:<br />1) She was burned out, either from the doorway reaction, or more likely overdrawing Saidar as Moiraine knocked the bracelet out of her hands just before they fell through. <br />2) We have been told that anything touching the Shadow is dangerous in 'Finnland....Lanfear is a creature of the Shadow<br />3) Having been stilled...and now confronting the 'Finn in their world, she was at their mercy...which they don't possess.  Bye-bye Lanfear.  As pointed out by Youker, the fact she thinks about being held only means she was not killed immediately.<br /><br />This of course begs the question...did Lanfear need &quot;healing&quot; as Cyndane, leading to reduction in OP?  It would seem she did.  If so, it was done by someone channeling saidar, as we have learned that only cross-healing of stilling fully restores OP ability.  Perhaps a BA member?  Certainly not one of the remaining Forsaken females.....or maybe so, say Grandael?  Or I guess maybe a TP healing would produce the same result....<br /><br />Moving on, I do believe her punishment fits the crime. Shishka, LogainReborn, kcf, F-T and Cannoli have explained this well enough.<br /><br />Also, the Mindtrap would appear to be the DO's doing exclusively....he makes this happen, not Moridin.  I believe the reasons for the Mindtrap were the DO's...not Moridin's.<br /><br />This was nicely written, but I have to say thumbs-down.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-03 04:38:40
subject: <b>Not sure.</b>
body:
<b> I believe that Moridin&#8217;s first plan of action after being reincarnated was to kill Lanfear. Sammael swore to do it too, but he also died. Ishamael probably detected intervention which could not be explained by Rand&#8217;s presence, or perhaps he realized what was happening near the end of the duel. <br /><br />I believe that Moridin killed Lanfear, either while she was a captive or right after she escaped (possibly even in Shayol Ghul after Shadar Haran neutralized her). Right after that she was reincarnated as Cyndane and Moridin used his influence as Nae&#8217;blis to continue her punishment with a mindtrap. </b><br /><br />This is a nice theory, and I like the thought of Lanfear helping Rand in the Stone.<br />Some random thoughts :-<br /><br />I&#8217;m not sure that the DO would allow Moridin to kill Lanfear just for revenge.  Even knowing that she could be reincarnated &#8211; apparently it takes time, and she is too valuable a tool to be hors de combat for that long (IIRC there are three books between Lanfear and Cyndane).  Sammael swearing to kill her could well be bluster.<br /><br />I think she must have been burned out/stilled as she was channeling as she fell through the doorway, and we have heard how dangerous that is.  I believe that she was killed by the &#8216;Finns, and the DO resurrected her, for her knowledge, if nothing else.  She would be unable to channel, but Moghedien learned that it was possible to Heal severing &#8211; in LoC &#8220;&#8230; Marigan said severing &#8211; stilling &#8211; could not be Healed&#8221;, and I think that the Forsaken did not yet realise that a man is necessary to return a woman to her full strength.  So one of the female Forsaken probably Healed Lanfear &#8211; she reappears after Moghedien&#8217;s escape from the camp, and we know that they use saidar, not the TP.<br /> <br /><b> WH (Wonderful News) - Putting a hand over his heart, for all the world like a lover, Moridin tilted up Cyndane&#8217;s chin on his fingertips. Resentment burned in her eyes, but her face might have been a doll&#8217;s unchanging face. She certainly accepted his attentions like a pliable doll. &#8220;Cyndane knows many things,&#8221; Moridin said softly.. <br /><br />This interpretation was according to Demandred PoV, but I believe Moridin was alluding to his death again, and reminding Cyndane once again what the awful price of messing with him was. </b><br /><br />I see what you are saying here, but I read it as purely a reminder of the mindtrap.  <br /><br />&#8216;At the Gardens&#8217; &#8211; Moridin put his free hand to the breast of his coat, and Cyndane flinched.  Moghedien shivered. &#8230; Aran&#8217;gar found the exchange illuminating.  It seemed that once she had disposed of Moridin, she would have Moghedien and the girl on leashes&#8221;.<br /><br />It seems as though the mindtraps are known to the other Forsaken (I wonder when they were first used?), and from Aran&#8217;gar&#8217;s POV it would appear that it is the holder, rather than the DO&#8217;s favour, who controls them.  There are conflicting messages about how much latitude the DO allows his servants &#8211; from your theory, it appears that the Nae&#8217;blis has much more autonomy than the others, and I&#8217;m not sure this is the case.  But I enjoyed reading your theory.<br />


