# w_comment

created: 2002-04-22 08:25:53
subject: <b>The Dark Ones knowledge</b>
body:
The DO has faced Rand in the third age so many times that would you think he would know what happens. In the ages he would change his plans because they don't work. He would have tried to kill Rand and realized it couldn't be done because not even he can effect the pattern, much. That is why he tries to turn him or make him hard and what ever else he is doing.


created: 2002-05-05 23:11:21
subject: <b>agreed</b>
body:
i very much agree with this theory...why...well no 1. it makes sense and number 2. because of that prophecy of heart of stone and soul of fire....if rands heart is turned to stone then perhaps if he wins tg he will be consumed with just getting everyone under one rule....his....which he is doing but it will become in a bad dictatorship kind of way...and because of his soul of fire....well pretty much that is all that will keep him going.....this is where cadsuane comes in to play.....she has to make rand remember that he is human and not a mechanincal demon terror thing....she has to make him remember that tears will clense his soul and love will quench the fire in his heart.......or somthing along those lines......i hope at least some of this makes sense to you all....if not plzzzzzzzzz tell me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Somebody may beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it. <br />Steve Prefontaine <br /><br />DATTEBAYO!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 20:50:36
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
This is a good idea; well thought out. I'm not really sure whether I agree with it or not though. I mean, sure, it makes sense...but why wouldn't the DO rather just kill Rand?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />~Lady Aurora~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> High Seat of House Trevelyn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />'Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no path and leave a trail.'<br /><br />'The meaning of life is to give life meaning.'<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 17:50:02
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
The reason why I agree with this theory is because I read Moiraine's account with the sownfall of Shadar Logoth.  When you reread the experience it talks about how the inhabitants became untrusting of everyone. Well it is paraphrased alot but when you look at the way it was described is the way Rand is turning into.  Well it is my opinion.  And if he feels that he can't trust anyone but Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. Then Randland is in for some trouble.  He keeps saying things like I can trust Nynaeve, right? Asking himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 15:44:05
subject: <b>Mkes sense</b>
body:
I was delighted when I read this theory since it very nicely put all ideas I had about the subject in a nice summarised way... good job


created: 2002-09-18 04:04:41
subject: <b>Claiming to serve the Light...</b>
body:
...while his deeds abandon it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Much like Aridhol did, oh so long ago. If the DO really is the soucre of all evil (as stated in the glossary) then once he has Rand converted to one type of evil, it'll be a whole lot easier to move him the next step (if the DO bothers at all).<br /><br />Think of evil as energy and good as matter. Getting from matter to energy is as hard as all-get-out, but converting energy to a different type is no biggie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">So I'm just sitting there all la-dee-da <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> when this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> drops out of nowhere, and Wham! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Son of a mother! Me beautiful eye is on fire! So now I'm all like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-03 16:36:09
subject: <b>Uhh...</b>
body:
Woah, I never thought about it that way, but yeah this makes a lot of sense.  I still believe DO may still try to turn Rand somehow, but this theory makes quite a bit of sense.  Tsag, this really good.  (starts grumbling resentfully)...wish I'd thought of that, stole my idea, mumble mumble mumble...<br /><br />Samshaidar Mhael<br />Destroyer of Shadow Leader or Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow, what ever<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br />(by the way, how do you do that vertical slash thingy, I cant figure it out...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 05:01:30
subject: <b>Bad dragon</b>
body:
I think that there's a chance that Rand actually will be turned at some point. It's been mentioned earlier that it's possible for 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 myrdraal will turn him agaisnt his will. And RJ rarely puts anything in just for fun, so there's the chance that we may see dark Rand in the future. <br /><br />And if Rand is turned to the shadow, he'd really need Alivias' help to die. From a medical point of view it's possible to actually be dead for a few moments, then return. Maybe Nynaeve finally gets to heal someone, not three days dead, but dead.<br /><br />And having been dead, Rands forced bond with the shadow could be severed. <br /><br />I know this theory is full of holes, but it's been in the back of my mind for a long time, so I just had to get it out there in the open.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hopelessly fighting the devil futility<br />Feeling the monster climb deeper inside of me<br />Feeling him gnawing my heart away hungrily<br />I'll never lose this pain<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/20659.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-19 13:25:44
subject: <b>The Shadow's Champion</b>
body:
This is awesome.  Perhaps Cadsuane has a slight talent in the Foretelling (wasn't there and indirect reference to that somewhere), and knows what will happen if he continues to grow hard.  It seems Sorilea does too, and this explains their water oath to &quot;teach Rand al'Thor laughter and tears.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-24 17:09:21
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I sound like a valid theory.<br /><br />But it saddens me very much.<br /><br /><br />Mariah Sedai<br /><br />I am in love with Rand.


created: 2005-10-27 23:37:25
subject: <b>Interesting theory!</b>
body:
I like it a lot, and it seems very plausbible...  just not at all Jordan's style IMO...  it would be very cool though!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">^_^<br />http://www.spiteful-pie.org &lt;&lt; Domain<br />http://mat.spiteful-pie.org &lt;&lt; Mat Fanlisting<br />http://nerd.spiteful-pie.org &lt;&lt; Nerdy Webring</font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-20 19:54:53
subject: <b>to what end?</b>
body:
This really does seem to explain the both sides of the board passage, but what does the DO gain from this? It doesn't help him escape; on;y spread chaos, distrust, hate, and lots of destruction. Perhaps the DO &quot;escaping&quot; is only he gaining major influence over the course of the world and turning it into what he wants it to be? Or maybe he just is mad at everyone because he's locked up and wants to take out his anger?


created: 2008-05-08 20:16:18
subject: <b>Trapped by Their Nature</b>
body:
Somthing from other Fantasy comes to mind when I hear/read about why doesen't the DO give up when he has been defeated every time, it's taht the Dark One isn't human, Ogier or any sort of Mortal being, he/it is a God. Now as I see Gods they are in fact their Nature and for The Dark One that is Evil, Chaos, Destruction and Paradox, thus since Creation exist, The Dark One simply MUST destroy it, simply becouse it exists. This creature migth &quot;reason&quot; out all sorts of motives for why it does as it does, but it's reasons don't matter only the results.


created: 2001-12-08 08:23:07
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
I don't think we'll ever see men become Aes Sedai again. I'm pretty certain they'll stay as Aes Sedai and Asha'man, although I hope (and predict) that after the Black Tower is basically destroyed by the rebellion and the Last Battle is over (meaning the Asha'man won't have a home), they'll move into that palace Elaida was building next to the White Tower.<br /><br />Perhaps one day male and female channlers will join together again as they were in the AoL, but not in the near future, could you imagine either the Asha'man or the Aes Sedai letting someone of the opposite sex rule over them?


created: 2001-12-08 12:16:13
subject: <b>I somewhat disagree.</b>
body:
While I do feel that the Red Ajah will loose its main perpose, genteling male channelers, I don't necessarily feel that the entire ajah needs to be abolished. As Rand stated in 'Winter's Heart', some male channelers have already gone insane and it is unclear if the Black Tower will be able to deal with them all, even if they choose too. You must also take into account the fact that there may also be male channelers who are not insane but may just be evil (perhaps not a darkfriend or dreadlord but just bad). As for Elaida's fortelling, it does not make it clear that all opposition will be cast out, nor must we assume that all of the red ajah will necessarily be opposed to Egwene taking over. Elaida seems to be pissing everybody off, including Reds. Another part of this fortelling states that sisters will walk the Black Towers grounds, which they do, but just not the way Elaida thinks


created: 2001-12-08 17:41:20
subject: <b>No male Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I don't think that male channelers will ever be Aes Sedai.  I think that the world is too afraid of male channelers for that to happen.  Even though the taint is gone, will the rest of the world believe that?  It is like saying that the White Tower doesn't meddle in worldly affairs.  The Aes Sedai say that they don't, but who believes that.  Just because the Ashaman say that the taint is gone, who is going to prove it?  I don't think that the world will take their word for it.


created: 2001-12-08 19:39:46
subject: <b>my thoughts</b>
body:
i agree that it will take a really long time for the fear of male channelers to diminish.  i also think that the asha'man will stay asha'man, but they will probably form somesort of alliance with the aes sedai.  oh, and there will still be a red ajah, but with a different purpose: there are too many reds for them to just go away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  stupid thoeries make baby Jesus cry  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-08 20:05:03
subject: <b>The future...</b>
body:
I personally think that Males probably won't become Aes Sedai, though it could happen.  I think the Black Tower (not the building, but the Asha'man themselves) will remain a seperate organization.  However, I believe it will be necessary for the male and female channelers to form some sort of agreement/alliance.  If not, then that's two POWERFUL organizations staring each other in the face...that's just asking for trouble.  <br /><br />I predict each tower will send elected sisters/brothers to a co-ed hall of servants to make the major decisions, but for all practical purposes, the two towers will be individual.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&quot;Call yourself The Dragon Reborn whether you are or not and shake the world to it's foundations.  The worst that could happen is that you get gentled and histories written about you!  The Red Ajah will find you anyway one way or the other, might as well get some recognition while you're at it.&quot;<br /><br />                -Logrim Ablaim, Another False Dragon-<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-08 23:34:56
subject: <b>The men will be useless if they take the oaths,</b>
body:
The men would be totally useless, they need to make weapons to fight, they need to be able to protect others from stuff other than shadowspawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 02:00:18
subject: <b>An Alliance</b>
body:
I always figured that the White and Black Towers would have an alliance, even before the taint was removed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> It just seems absolutely necessary. Now, whoever had that observation about the Ashaman using &quot;Elaida's Palace&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> when (and she will be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />) indisposed, that's an interesting little thing you've got there. Hadn't thought of it yet. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> I do hope the Reds (well, some of them) get over the whole man-hater thing. Anyhow, nice theory for stating the semi-obvious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 07:52:40
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
Nicola's Foretelling said the Guardians will balance the Servants, not join the Servants.  As for the Red Ajah being abolished, I don't think so.  The White Tower was designed for seven ajahs not six.  Think of the cost of redecorating.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-09 21:23:47
subject: <b>Don't forget the Black Ajah</b>
body:
Alviarin can Travel. And there will be female dreadlords. So perhaps the BA and the BA hunters have a humungus fight, and defeated and scorned Alviarin &amp; Co scarper.<br /><br />Would be a good read.


created: 2001-12-10 13:38:11
subject: <b>I have been...</b>
body:
thinking along the lines that TG would completely reshape the thoughts and ideals Westlanders (sorry) have of male channelers.  I feel that people's fears of male channelers (this is only given that the Light wins TG; which I think they will) will evolve rather abruptly to something that more resembles the common person's awe of an Aes Sedai.  Thoughts/laws/emotions/politics/etc. all change quickly when dragged through something as drastic as a huge war. (let alone many wars...like some that have raged through parts of WL already)  I think the evlution of The Black Tower itself proves this.  At first no man (certainly no woman) wanted anything to do with being taught to channel at the BT.  They ignored the amnesty provided by Rand.  Now, though, they've begun increasing in size dramatically due to the fact that at least a small faction of the world has heard of, and grown to know (if not be quite accustomed to) Asha'man.  I think that male channelers that battle for the Light (whether the title Asha'man remains or not) at TG will receive honors from the people of the world and Aes Sedai. (again, this is given the fact that the Light wins TG AND that Rand does not rend the world apart)  Which has led me to believe that Asha'man will join the Aes Sedai in a united Tower.  I also feel that the women of the tower (Egwene being the Ayrlin of course) will abolish the Ajahs all together. (as there were none in the AoL; and aren't we supposedly full circle)  The Ajahs have only been a dividing line prohibiting the unity of the WT for all these centuries, causing in-fighting, bickering, subversive plots betwixt the Ajahs.  The fact that different skills exist from Aes Sedai to Aes Sedai will be just that.  No longer destinguished by Ajahs (which has becom muddy anyway...you always read quote's such as, &quot;She was always to &lt;i&gt;so and so&lt;i/&gt; to be &lt;i&gt;insert Ajah here&lt;i/&gt;&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />Anyways, I could go on, but I've written way too much already.  Sorry.  I like this theory...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-10 15:34:36
subject: <b>To throw in a monkeywrench.</b>
body:
As Locksmith said, Nicola's prophesy mentioned that the servants balanced the guardians.  That prophesy could mean just about anything, but the most likely meaning is that the Aes Sedai (servants of all) balance out the Asha'man (guardians of good).  That doesn't sound like they all become Aes Sedai, though.<br /><br />Just to throw a monkeywrench in, though.  The prophesy does not say that the female servants balance out the male guardians.  Common sense seems to dictate that males and females must work closely together in order to win TG.  The obvious solution is that one of the group joins the other or that they become temporary allies.  An unobvious solution is that each group takes in members of the other opposite gender.  <br /><br />Normally I wouldn't suggest this alternative when the obvious solutions works so well, but the pattern seems in someway to be building to this solution.  Nicola's prophecy for instance seems to suggest that rather than working together the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai will 'balance' or maybe even oppose one another.  Then the pattern forced 50 AS into Asha'man captivity and 3 or more Asha'man under AS authority.  (Min saw that Beldeine, I think, would bond an Asha'man.)  What if some of the AS in the BT would train female Asha'man.  (Not having to take the 3 oaths would have a certain appeal I think).  Similarly Narishima and company could train male AS.  (Damer Flyn makes a better AS than Ashaman anyway.)<br /><br />The best part about this theory is that those who want either Logain or Narishima to be T'amyrillin can have it both ways.  Logain will be M'hael and Narishima Sedai will be T'Amyrillin! <br /><br />Or Not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-10 15:42:44
subject: <b>yes and no</b>
body:
I don't think the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will become one...as the prophecy says, one will balance the other. I think that means they will perhaps form an alliance (almost certainly after Egwene is installed in the White Tower).<br /><br />I'm not sure that the red ajah will entirely go away. Granted, the reds haven't done anything to impress me so I wouldn't mind that all that much but..<br />I see them evolving to carry on another purpose..Either that, or they will persist that the taint is still there and be banished from the tower, maybe even losing the title of Aes Sedai,,,but that's just pure conjecture.


created: 2001-12-10 20:40:20
subject: <b>Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I've always thought that The Aes Sedai would unite with Ash'Man, because of the cyclical nature of Randland. And I think we get some sort of foreshadowing when Nyn and Cads help Rand clense the source. I think what it shows is that the Asha'Man and Aes Sedai will have to team up to be the Dark One.<br /><br />Ajahs did not exist in the Age Of Legands when all chanellers were Aes Sedai, so I don't know that any ajahs will stick around. Actually, I think they will as they've demonstrated a usefullness. But I am also intrigued by the possibility of bonding chanellers to other channelers.<br /><br />Could this be what Cads has to teach the Asha'Man that they won't like. They have to bond to Aes Sedai in order to make a force strong enough to fight the Dark One's minions? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-10 21:47:21
subject: <b>Cool idea, RabidWombat</b>
body:
That's a really neat idea, RabidWombat, I'd never thought of that before, but it'd be really cool. It would also solve the problem of AS who didn't want to take the Three Oaths for some reason or other having to play second fiddle as Kinswomen (which was the dumbest idea Jordan has ever written <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> did I say that? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> ). I was thinking it would be more likely for them all to become Aes Sedai again, because that's the way it was in the AoL, but things do seem to be working out differently from the AoL, so it's actually possible. I'm not sure that it's going to happen, but it'd be cool if it did.<br />About the original theory - I don't think the Reds are all going to leave the Tower. There's just too many of them, and they would probably be slightly destructive wandering the country... the Red Ajah will probably be converted to a different purpose. Not sure what yet, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-11 08:12:53
subject: <b>I really...</b>
body:
don't think we'll see men becoming Aes Sedai. Of course in the future it will happen that men and women will all be together like in the AoL btu we don't know when other than it has to be before the end of the next Second Age.<br /><br />I actually really liked your idea Rabid, not that I think it'll happen. It'd basically set up 2 seperate competing channeling powers in the world and I don't think that could be handled.


created: 2001-12-11 20:57:24
subject: <b>What does RAFO mean? *NM*</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Katiya<br />*Life-Time Supply Available Upon Request*</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-12 06:58:19
subject: <b>....I can't tell if you're joking or not so...</b>
body:
read and find out...RJ says it everytime anyone asks him a question about anything...well, not quite, but that's what it feels like.


created: 2001-12-12 11:35:32
subject: <b>for those who think ashaman will swear on the oath rod....</b>
body:
they can't.   Sammy mentions that the rods only work on women and that to do the same to a man you would need a binding chair.  <br />


created: 2001-12-12 22:38:09
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
well if the men swear the oaths then they have just eliminated the primary function of the male channelers in this time period, which is combat maybe they will take the first oath, that is of course if Egwene doesn't do away with the oaths entirely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 07:33:19
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
The Red Ajah is the biggest Ajah. I don't think the Red will just disaper after Egwene retake the Tower.


created: 2001-12-13 08:52:01
subject: <b>Just to clear something up...</b>
body:
I'm not sure about this, but I don't think all the people who are saying the Red Ajah would cease to exist mean the actual Aes Sedai in them. They just mean that because the main purpose of the reds no longer exists, they may well have to move to another Ajah. Unless of course the reds can simply be given another main task, but then I'd think they'd still have to be given the choice of whethr they want to change Ajahs or not, after all, they joined the reds to hunt male channelers, not for whatever this new task would be.<br /><br />If it isn't shown that the reds did not in fact persuade Logain to proclaim himself as the DR, I find it hard to believe they could carry on. Of course, I'm pretty sure Suian's lie will be discovered.


created: 2001-12-13 09:57:58
subject: <b>Balancing of the two</b>
body:
I'm thinking that the Asha'man are going to replace Warders, by being bonded to Aes Sedai, but I'm also thinking that the Asha'man are going to bond their Sister in return.  I'm not sure how this would work out with Greens, but they could always do something like happened to Rand and his women.


created: 2001-12-13 19:19:16
subject: <b>Rabit Wombat, you've done it again!</b>
body:
I like your theory...I mean blackboard comment.  Maybe you ought to make it a theory!  I don't know that it will happen but I definitely like it.  Anyway, later.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for president.


created: 2002-01-03 09:35:23
subject: <b>Red and Green</b>
body:
I believe that the Red Ajah once was a primary Ajah for the male Aes Sedai and that they are the one's that made the Heron marked blades and so forth but at any rate they were the Red Ajah and I think they will be again. If you recall in either TGH or TDR Egwene asked a Green Aes Sedai what it ment to be Green and the Green Aes Sedai said that they were the battle Ajah and the Red and Green Ajah's will bond each other so when they are in battle they will know how many of their numbers are destroyed and I think that when the male's return that they will take over the red Ajah again and that the Red Ajah and the Green Ajah will be the primary Aes Sedai that do any bonding within the Ajah's but this is pure guess work here..<br /><br />As for the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man not taking order's from any of the opisite sex then why only one person to run the Tower why not make up a council of let's say 6 male and 6 female then the decision is equaly viewed from all point's and there is no favorites any where...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Aes Sedai to Lord Cyric  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Aes Sedai to gban007     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Sister to King of Illian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 23:11:39
subject: <b>I never posted this post!!!!</b>
body:
I would just like to say I do NOT recall posting this post in the first place.<br /><br />Secondly I haven't been at Wotmania in an interactive sense since about the end of October.<br /><br />Roonas... who did this under my name?<br /><br />*seriously confuzzled*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Andy</i><br /><br /><i> Wicca of Downunder </i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Formely known as Clef <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Magically inclined in the good way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Magic Turnip&#8482; and the Chatroom Breadstick&#8482; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 03:31:24
subject: <b>origional purpose?</b>
body:
I'm not sure if anyones said this yet, but how about the Reds becoming the &quot;recruting&quot; ajah? instead of going out to find men who can channel and gentling them, they now go out to find men and women who can channel and bring them back to be trained. Actually i think this is what the reds origional purpose was, except they changed to hunt down men who can channel cos of the taint.


created: 2001-12-13 13:43:52
subject: <b>Aram trained hard with Tam (who is a blademaster as well)</b>
body:
bah I need to have something here I guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 13:55:00
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Do we really know Tam was a blademaster?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 14:07:26
subject: <b>Trollocs did so</b>
body:
Didn't one of the tinkers vividly describe the scene where the trollocs came?  She mentioned how the WC killed their dogs and the men made a line helping the others to escape.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 15:27:47
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
Tam was a blademaster. He had the sword and if you think that's because he happened to pick it up, why exactly was he Second Captain of the Illianer Guards (I may well have made that title up, if I got it wrong please correct me. Not that it matters, it still shows the same point)?<br /><br />For some reason and I'm not sure why, you didn't mention the dream Egwene had: &quot;A man in a bright yellow coat stood near to Perrin's shoulder, a sword strapped to his back; in some way she knew that he was a Tinker. Every time he moved closer to Perrin it was as if a chill of doom shot through everything.&quot; Obviously that's referring to Aram.<br /><br />We may not have any evidence yet of Aram being a DF, but so far it's looking extremely likely. Like I've said before, I'm convinced, but I guess without proof it;s hard to convince others.<br /><br />Oh and I don't think Aram will kill Faile, I don't see her dying (except in my dreams).


created: 2001-12-13 15:34:41
subject: <b>Oops</b>
body:
I forgot, there are a couple of the dreams.<br /><br />&quot;Again Perrin; he turned away from a Tinker and ran, faster and faster though she called for him to come back.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Perrin and a Tinker, frenziedly hacking their way through brambles with axe and sword, unaware of the cliff that lay just ahead. And the brambles screamed with human voices they did not hear.&quot;<br /><br />I don't really see how that last one points to him being a DF, but it's there if you wanna analyze it.


created: 2001-12-13 16:37:29
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Also, mostly every other person at that meeting has had an impact.  It is too late to bring in a new major Tinker.<br /><br />But, I think he was of those that didn't really think he'd have to do anything for his oaths.  He is loyal to Perrin.  Ta'veren can do stuff like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 16:59:58
subject: <b>your fat</b>
body:
see you don't like it either!<br />don't be mean<br />Aram rocks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 17:08:20
subject: <b>Ermmm</b>
body:
I must admit, that last comment was totally lost on me. Who was it directed at and what did it mean? It sounds like you're telling somebody not to insult somebody else as it's mean...but I can't see who you could possibly be referring to.


created: 2001-12-13 22:24:16
subject: <b>Well... maybe, maybe not...</b>
body:
There are as I see it, only two convincing peices of evidence so far. One is Aram being so good with a sword right away. The other being that we've yet to find out who the dark friend Tinker was.<br /><br />   I find your scenario for Aram killing off the other Tuathaan to be unlikely. Too many people for a single person (aside from Slayer perhaps) to take care of so efficiently. Getting the survivors out of there with out waking them up is another porblem. It'd be much easier to get word to where his clan was and have an actual trolloc attack take place (if he is in fact a dark friend).<br /><br />   By the way your idea that Aram kills Faile doens't work. First off he doesn't seem to have a clear reason to do it. Secondly the fact that Faile has been foreseen as bearing many of Perrins children seems to negate the possibility of her dying anytime soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 00:37:09
subject: <b>Off Alone</b>
body:
You also talk about how an older tinker couldn't have gotten off alone. I am pretty sure an older Tinker woman came to Moraine while she was camped with Perrin, Rand, and the Shienarans after Rand had proclaimed himself. So it seems like it might not be that difficult for a Tinker to get away for a while.


created: 2001-12-14 01:56:32
subject: <b>what I think...</b>
body:
I think Aram was asigned to Perrin during that dark friend meeting. The big three are all being watched or persued in some capacity and Perrin has had the least evidence of such a following so I think it could be that Perrin is being spotted by Aram. plus, I beleive his devotion to faile stems from the fact that he is in love with her and wishes to steal her away from Perrin just as he wished to do with Egwene. but, that's what I think.


created: 2001-12-14 09:51:02
subject: <b>About the DF meeting...</b>
body:
They weren't concretely somewhere else, or if they were, it was in some place like T'A'R (or perhaps in T'A'R itself). Remember, we saw Bors think about that odd place, how he didn't remember how he had come there. Also the servant who accompanied him there told him that when he would woke up, he would be in his own bed and wouldn't remember anything but his orders.<br />Of course this kind of thing could be done by Compulsion, but I doubt it. Keep in mind that Ba'alzamon used the T'A'R a lot, and he surely would know a way to drae all those people there.<br /><br />So, the argument about Aram's age and position, and him being able to easily slip away, isn't really valid.<br /><br />Otherwise, I like the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Ciel<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 10:07:42
subject: <b>Aram is PURE EVIL!</b>
body:
I agree that Aram is evil, evil, evil!  He must be sacrificed to our God!  Even if he didn't go through the Tinker camp in some twisted Columbine-inspired &quot;knifing spree&quot;, he very well could have called the Trollocs down on the camp as a test of his loyalty.  Darkfriends have to do those sorts of things from time to time.  So before sending him on the ultra-secret deadly dangerous mission of being a spy, traitor and diversionary, Aram had to prove himself.  <br /><br />Besides, nothing in Aram's character makes any sense.  He envies Perrin and doesn't like him, yet follows him around like a shadow.  He comes from the Tinker society yet Jordan has highlighted how much he ENJOYS killing and bloodshed. He didn't just take up the sword to defend people; he took it up because he wanted KILL. Has Jordan ever described one of the characters we know to be good as being bloodthirsty? Is that considered a positive trait? He's got a fell streak the size of Shayol Ghul in the depths of his soul, I tell you!  <br /><br />To throw more fuel on the fire, for all we know the real Aram was killed at the Tinker Camp and the person we think is Aram is really Demandred...HAHAHAHA!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 12:11:47
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Sorry, but I can't buy this one.  Aram's initial hostility toward Perrin was jealousy, pure and simple.<br />Besides, Aram isn't smart enough to be a Dark Friend, in my opinion.  If, from that comment, you assume that I don't like Aram much, well done.<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-14 18:45:07
subject: <b>Perrin nose knows!</b>
body:
Remember Perrin watching Taim and Rand at Dumai Wells. His nose picked up so many emotions. Do you think he has spent the last year and a half with Aram and not notice some sort of deceit. No<br /><br />The real threat of Aram to Perrin is Masema. Masema guards to Perrin smelt &quot;A reflection of Masema's madness&quot; WH. Masema is infecting people. Who in Perrin's group is most likely to be infected. The angry violent young tinker that's who!<br /><br />Egwene dreamt of Faile lounging on Perrin lap, behind him was a flag of Manetheran. Everytime the tinker moved closer a sense of doom overcame the picture. Aram may just infect Perrin and this will make him do something very stupid. i.e. attack a 300 channeling Shaido Army. There is no way he would win this. Unless he allies himself with the Seanchan and that is unlikely.<br />


created: 2001-12-14 23:17:05
subject: <b>Aram</b>
body:
Aram wouldn't have to attack the Tinker's camp himself, even if he was a darkfriend. That could have been arranged by the Forsaken to help Aram leave and go to Perrin, or it oculd have just as easily happended apart from any assignment Aram had had about getting close to Perrin.<br /><br />...but I don't think Aram if a DF anyway. Yesm there was a tinker at the meeting, and we have seen pretty much every other participant in that meeting.<br /><br />IMO, Aram is just a person whi has gone crazy with blood lust. That was a very good point about Perrin not being able to smell anything like deceit around Aram, and he smells everything else. Certainly being blood crazed could still very likely get Perrin in a lot of trouble by itself.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 07:12:41
subject: <b>Just</b>
body:
because he's a DF doesn't mean that Perrin should be able to smell him as one. Just think back to that Maiden who was sent by Sammael to kill Mat. She really did like him, I doubt Perrin would have been able to smell anything on her before she actually decided or was told that it's was time to kill Mat. Aram might well like Perrin, but some oaths are more important than others.<br /><br />I've never heard of Perrin smelling out a DF anyway and he's been around enough of them. If he can detect them, he doesn't realise it.


created: 2001-12-15 07:23:35
subject: <b>I agree as far as Aram being a DF</b>
body:
but I think the throat-slitting is a little far-fetched...<br />True, the only real strong indication is the meeting of DFs, but I'd say that is a REALLY strong indication...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 11:28:51
subject: <b>One thing bothers me...</b>
body:
There's nothing amazing with Aram being so good with a sword all of a sudden - from what we know, he's a superb dancer, and that's two thirds of being a blademaster for you - a dancer has the stamina, is quick on his feet, and has experience learning, memorizing and practicing precise movements. For Aram, fighting is just dancing with a sword.<br /><br />What bothers me is that in all her dreams and visions, Egwene sees a TINKER being close to Perrin. Why A TINKER, when she KNOWS Aram, for Creator's sake! She even liked him a bit - and now she won't recognize him? Maybe it's not Aram.


created: 2001-12-15 13:50:51
subject: <b>Cigars are for kids....</b>
body:
No cigar? don't know for sure, but you may just be eating crow by the time things all come to fruition...<br />


created: 2001-12-15 14:44:07
subject: <b>No waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
This theory makes absolutely no sense to me. Not all who act evil are DF's, remember that next time you decide to post a theory as half-baked as this one. Think about it, Aram is a Tinker. He was a pretty-boy pacifist living out his life as one of a people renowned for their peaceful ways. It would be the perfect cover for a DF. No one would suspect him of being anything but a Tinker, because no one ever suspects Tuath'an of being anything but thieving pacifists. He could have easily used the fact that his family had died for an excuse to latch onto Perrin. Instead, he becomes a bloodthirst nutter with a love for death. Yeah, THATS a good cover. You expect me to believe that a DF clever enough to avoid being detected by Perrin's keen senses would give up a cover that good. I suppose you could argue that his bloodthirsty nature was his true self and it is easier for him to act that way, but he acted the charmer for about 18 years with his family, a few months of doing it with Perrin wouldn't be to hard. I think the tinker DF at the meeting in TGH was to show that anyone could be a DF, that they are everywhere. I don't think it was to specify any particular tinker in the books as one. Ishy ordered all the DF's at the meeting to kill Perrin, Rand and Mat. Why would Aram then go and become Perrin's devoted bodyguard, actually saving him in some instances. He could kill Perrin at any time, or even just let him die. As for Aram's astonishing skill with a blade after so short a time, prodigies are common in WoT. It took Mat very little time at all to become skilled enough with his staff spear to kill Myrdraal, why couldn't Aram just be a prodigy. He might even be the legendary blademaster, for all we know. He obviously won't kill Faile, because it was foretold that she would have many of Perrin's children. And quite frankly, I think Aram is going to be developed mor ebefore he drops out of the picture. Visions have shown that Aram puts Perrin in danger, that doesn't mean he is a DF. If Egwene knew Aram, as she did when she had her dream, why would she only call hima Tinker, as if she did't know his name, when she saw Perrin running from a Tinker? There was also a vision that showed Aram and Perrin hacking their way together towards the edge of a cliff, and that has to be explained before Aram dies. Aram is not a DF.


created: 2001-12-15 20:28:41
subject: <b>Aram's evilness...</b>
body:
I don't believe that Aram could have killed all the Tinkers himself, I'm pretty sure that somewhere, it was stated that the Trollocs did that. However, it does seem likely that he's a DF, because he's the only likely candidate to be the Tinker at the meeting, and because of his sudden change in behavior towards Perrin. True, he could have been affected by ta'veren swirls, but ta'veren make something that's unlikely to happen come true, they don't make something that would never otherwise occur happen out of thin air with no reason. And Aram doesn't really have a good reason to have felt such extreme loyalty to Perrin as soon as he did. <br />About Egwene's dreams - she might have seen just &quot;a Tinker&quot; and not &quot;Aram&quot; even though she knew Aram because her dreams are sometimes vague, and she might have just seen a blurry form next to Perrin and &quot;known&quot; it was a Tinker - or something like that.<br />If he's not a DF, then he's otherwise fanatically influenced to the point of evilness - IMHO, that is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 01:02:02
subject: <b>A Tinker without Faith</b>
body:
Remember the visions amoung the pillars?  About the origin of the modern Aeil and Tinkers?  Notice any similarities in character development to that of Aram?  I do.<br /><br />Aram was a good kid when they met him.  Ok, maybe not likable, but after being the center of all feminine attention for so long, having the &quot;new guy&quot; steal it away probably doesn't bring out the best in one.  Then again, neither does having all of your friends killed.  <br /><br />So Aram lost faith in the Way of the Leaf and found that he could channel his sorrow and futile rage into violence.  He bathes in the bloodlust to overwhelm the loss he has suffered.  Who told him that the Way of the Leaf would cause grief for the Tinkers?  Or at least insinuated it by encouraging a different tack?  Perrin.  So he follows Perrin. <br /><br />I believe he does respect and even love Perrin.  But he is in that hypermasculine, &quot;must-suppress-my-emotions&quot; mode (much like Lan at times....though again not as respectably).<br /><br />As to being suddenly good at the sword, see above comments about natural prodigies and dancers.  It was a good point.  And Tam is a blademaster.<br /><br />The visions?  The danger Aram poses to Perrin is the similarities of Aram's rage to Perrin's &quot;axe&quot;.  I believe we will see the brambles vision next book.  With the capture of Faile, Perrin is going to instinctively want to rage.  Aram WILL rage.  Both in that cold, will-kill, lets-go-get-'em, macho way.  But that will only cause problems.  Hack and slash isn't the answer.  The Dragonsworn AND the Shaido are led by bad leaders, but aren't necessarily bad themselves.<br /><br />Those are my thoughts, unedited.


created: 2001-12-17 14:41:25
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Voice of Lews Therin mentioned that no other characters have shown any ultra violent blood lustful tendencies. How bout Gawyn? He's got a mad on to kill Rand, and has been foreseen as possibly killing Egwene. Gawyn has the potential to be a very violent person. Recall the scene right after the breaking of the White Tower when Min was trying to sneak Leane and Siuan out've Tar Valon. Gawyn showed up and confronted Siuan about his sister. If the former Amyrlin hadn't lied about where she sent Elayne then Gawyn might have just killed her. So theres a violent blood thirsty character that is a good guy (even if he's not as bad as Aram).<br /><br />   Eggtooth22 made a good point about Arams change of attitude. He's lost everything he's ever loved, and has seen too many times when his people stood by and got beaten and killed. After spending some 18 to twenty years or so trying to live like a peaceful and tranquil person, then seeing that philosophy get most of your family killed, it's easy to see how one could go over the edge on violent behavior.<br /><br />   By the way, people keep mentioning that we've yet to see the Tuathaan dark friend from the gathering. So what? We haven't yet met up with the Sea Folk DF either. It may be as some have suggested to show that dark friends have infiltrated all walks of life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 11:34:39
subject: <b>You should really have a theory for...</b>
body:
The bors meeting. You only have loose facs and should do a little more research. But interasting theory thoug<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />religious leader of elpimpos&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Bringer of useless things in tough times<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Forever friend of Fair Angel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-16 12:22:16
subject: <b>huh?</b>
body:
1) Rand's training was not daily, it was intermittent.<br />2) What, Aram is the only young man in the Tinker camp? In all the tinker camps in all the world?<br />3) Rand kills. Mat kills. Perrin, too, kills. Lan kils. They all kill better when the ones they live are dead, threatened. By your own reasoning, they are all DFs.<br />No, I'm sorry, not buying<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 16:53:39
subject: <b>No way !!!1 YOur theory is pure speculation.....</b>
body:
You have no facts.....Aram is just blood thirsty and violent because for 18 years or more he has watched his people be killed and pushed around....Remember, he has lost his family too...Aram acts are ones of remorse and anger....


created: 2002-04-27 12:21:13
subject: <b>Uhmmmmmmmm!!</b>
body:
This theory touches the surface of what.......<br />NOTHING????<br /><br />Firstly, Min saw a viewing of a tinker with a sword. If he was supposedly harmfull, I reckon she would have said as much to him. Especially in the light of her warning him against Lanfear. <br /><br />Secondly, Egewene dreamed about the same tinker. She said that everytime he moves close to Perrin, It sends a chill through her. This is proven in Aram's act. Whenever RJ mentions the tinker in battle, He is protecting Perrin by killing those who wants to harm the ta'veren without any regard of his own safety. I believe Aram's Loss of his parents and Perrin's understanding thereof, created a bond which the tinker is willing to follow to the point of madness. This is no different from the mad dedication to the way of the leaf that the tinkers follow. His dedication only shifted focus.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />master of dreams<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />Lord of the blue sky<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-19 02:36:08
subject: <b>Aram's behaviour changing...</b>
body:
...could just be a sign that he also received orders too important for him to know, as Bors did, in the form of what i guess was some kind of compulsion.<br /> I do not think that the DF's at the meeting in TGH were supposed to kill any of the three Ta'veren, but that some were ordered to watch them and shadow them if they came into contact with them, while other DF's were given orders which would simply result in increasing chaos, which we all know the DO wants.<br /> There is a great deal of evidence suggesting that the bad guys could kill any number of the main good guys quite easily if they really wanted to, but they're actually aiming for something else.  What that might be, I've got no idea, but it certainly seems that those forces now controlled by Moridin are not simply aiming for obliteration of their foes.  Moridin seems to have a different agenda.  The DO alone knows what.<br /> Aram being a DF seems quite likely to me, and the fact we've never seen a POV from him adds weight to the idea.  His bloodlust and his lack of an 'insane' smell are also pointing in this direction: if he'd been driven mad by all he's been through, and thus turned to using the sword to solve his problems, then Perrin would be able to smell it.  Instead, Perrin doesn't smell madness from Aram at all, although I think i remember Aram as being described as smelling eager when faced with the prospect of bloodshed.  This puts him in a different class from our heroes, all of whom, whilst willing to kill in order to fight against the DO, are in no way eager to do so.<br /> Egwene's dreams are problematic, though, as one would expect that if it was Aram in the dreams, that she would recognise him; but what are the chances that it's some other Tinker w/ a sword that she's dreaming of??  Not very likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 22:10:08
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
More likely that the Tinker at the meeting was one of the tinkers who were in the Two Rivers during the Trolloc Skirmishes.  Perrin will return to find a new Aridhol in Emond's Field.<br /><br />OR<br /><br />The tinker was someone even cleverer (is that a word) than Bors...someone disguised as a tinker.  Perhaps lanfear?  she could have been freed by this time without anyone knowing about it.  She would probably want to know what Ishy had been up to all these years.


created: 2002-07-26 12:07:13
subject: <b>To Eggtooth...</b>
body:
&quot;I believe we will see the brambles vision next book.&quot;<br /><br />I recall someone posting this sometime ago that at Dumai's Wells when Perrin was fighting his way to Rand he kept trying to picture the Aiel he was fighting as brambles rather than people so as to make killing them easier (thus, most likely fulfilling that particular vision).<br /><br />I am not certain about this and don't have LoC with me but it might be useful for someone to check up on, as it's one hole left to be filled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 11:20:34
subject: <b>A Touch from Mordeth</b>
body:
From his actions I believe Fain brushed Aram with what he brought from Aridhol (in much the same manner as he did with Elaida and Niall).  He would have had the opportunity while he was in the Two Rivers.  He probably did it during the attack.  Aram's actions fit very well, he is becoming &quot;harder than the shadow.&quot;  It is not intentional on his part, but the poison of Aridhol.  Since Fain did this to him, I wouldn't be surprised if his utter devotion to Perrin caused him to attack Rand because he though Rand did something to hurt Perrin.


created: 2003-02-15 16:42:52
subject: <b>Hello</b>
body:
I have to agree with many other posters, just because there was a Tinker at the meeting doesn't mean it was Aram.  I feel that RJ was just putting them in there to prove the point about Darkfriends being from all walks of life.  As for the sudden change in Aram's character, he had just watched almost his entire family get killed, what would you do?  Also don't forget that it is mentioned in all of the books that Trollocs don't always wait for their victims to die before they start cutting them up for dinner.  Imagine what happened to the Tinkers and read the begining of TSR, when the Trollocs attack the stone.  Even in the heat of battle a couple had stopped to take the time to start cutting up a woman to eat.  I don't like Aram but I don't think he's a Darkfriend.


created: 2003-05-18 19:15:43
subject: <b>wasnt the DF in tgh.......</b>
body:
wasnt the tinker a woman? I got from it that it seemed like a woman tinker myself, but then again I could be wrong


created: 2001-12-13 15:47:54
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
This is basically what I said the last time this topic came up. Hopefully more people will listen now that it's been posted as a theory.<br /><br />Here's what I reckon is happening. As you said, LTT went mad. The barrier between himself and the previous Dragon broke down from the taint just as Rand's has between himself and LTT, only a lot quicker. Just like Rand he suddenly had these other memories and another personality in his head and the mind can't deal with that. So, once again just like Rand, he sunconciously gives this new personality a voice, makes it seperate from himself. What is different from Rand is that I doubt LTT knew the name of the Dragon before him, so he couldn't say that someone specifically was in his head. Anyway, now that Rand has LTTs memories seperate in his head, those memories obviously also contain memories of this other voice that LTT heard. So now this LTT (pretending he's actually real and seperate to Rand for a moment) not only hears the Dragon before him through that broken barrier, but also the Dragon after him.<br /><br />I don't know if this makes it easier to understand if anyone's struggling, but imagine 3000 years from now and we're coming to the end of the Fourth Age. Now obviously I don't know what's really going to happen, so as unlikely as some of this is, just play along. So there we are, the Dragon's been reborn once again and saidan's been tainted. The new ragon is gradually going mad, the barrier between himself and the previous Dragon's (Rand al'Thor's) personality and memories are breaking down. His mind also can't take this new presence so he gives these new memories (Rand's memories) a voice. Then one time, this Rand voice mentions how he can hear 2 voices in his head. This is because Rand's memories contain memories of LTT being in his head and these memories are relating back to the new Dragon 2.<br /><br />I really hope that is clear.


created: 2001-12-13 21:06:27
subject: <b>I disagree.....</b>
body:
<br /><br />Because it is too late in the series to introduce antoher dragon.......RJ would need to build the character and its too late to add another one....Instead I support the Guaire Amasalan theory, since we know all about him, and he is called The Second Dragon.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 22:35:04
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
It's not the first time I've seen it but I like it none the less. This goes far to explain Lews Therins conviction that Rand is a voice in his head. He had already gone mad from a voice in his head, so he may just see Rand as another voice bounced into the mix.<br /><br />   By the way the Guaire Amalsan theory is a lot harder to swallow than LTT's previous incarnation. If the 3rd destoryer is Guaire then why didn't Rand see him first? The barrier of time between them is closer, so it would seem that Guaire would come first then Lews.<br /><br />   By the way here's a question, correct me if I'm wrong (I lost my copy of the Big White Book long ago) but wasn't Guaire Almasan stilled after he lost? I wonder if that would be something that carried over in death or not. It's an academic argumentince we don't know that he was the Dragon or not, just an interesting question to ponder though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 06:07:01
subject: <b>Hornsounder</b>
body:
Why would RJ need to introduce a new Dragon? He could leave the third destroyer comment as it is, there's no need to expand on it.


created: 2001-12-14 12:03:52
subject: <b>The Big White Books says</b>
body:
that Guaire Amalasan was &quot;sentenced to stilling.&quot; Note that it does not say he was stilled. It does say that Tar Valon was attacked by supporters of Amalasan, and was forced to ask Hawkwing for help.<br /><br />Later, the Amyrlin, Bonwhin Meraighdin, was deposed and stilled.<br /><br />This was in answer to Lard Savaunt. As for the theory, I've decided that I won't be wrong if I don't have an opinion.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 12:09:29
subject: <b>hmmmmmm</b>
body:
Interesting idea and fits in with something I remember about LTT.  Doesn't he moan about having a madman in his head?  We assume he's talking about Rand, but what if this theory is true?  That would mean the madman in LTT's head is Mr. X.


created: 2001-12-17 01:03:53
subject: <b>I'll need to research this more, but...</b>
body:
is it possible that the third voice is actually the new person that could come of a Rand/Lews Therin merging?  Hasn't that merging been predicted a possibility by a vision of Min's?


created: 2001-12-19 12:50:29
subject: <b>THis is aready menitoned in the books</b>
body:
Im pretty certiand of that<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />religious leader of elpimpos&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Bringer of useless things in tough times<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Forever friend of Fair Angel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 19:59:17
subject: <b>Logain?</b>
body:
When LTT is speaking about the 3rd destroyer he continually utilizes the present tense.  Now of course LTT is dead thousands of years ago, so it is quite possible that this 3rd man is too, but when I read the passages about it, and put it together with the &quot;hazy&quot; images of a man that Rand keeps seeing, I believe they are the same man.  A man who will soon become known to Rand in the present age.  Now, why would Rand keep seeing these images of a man, but not LTT, or someone else for that matter?  No it must be someone who he is eventually going to recognize.  He keeps saying he looks vaguely familiar, and he has seen Logain before.  If it was just a voice in LTT's head would the man look familiar?  I don't think so. <br />   I think its preparing us for the eventually of some kind of mergence in the pattern around Logain when Rand &quot;dies&quot;.  For a time Logain will possibly become the Dragon Reborn until Rand is ready again to resume it.  This might involve the &quot;beggar&quot; images of Rand; a symbolic fall from power.  In the cleansing of Saidin it clearly mentioned a couple of times that Rand &quot;couldn't&quot; see anything.  I think Book 10 will see Rand temporarily blinded.  <br />  Although I see Logain as a possible &quot;3rd Destroyer&quot;, has anyone given any thought to the idea that it could be in fact Ishmael/Moridin?  Rand did see him once in Shadar Logoth, so he could look familiar.  Ishmael is known as the &quot;Destroyer of Hope&quot;, could this be a hint? <br />  Any thoughts?<br />


created: 2001-12-28 18:30:08
subject: <b>Raserei, Hornsounder, and tarmanguydan2...</b>
body:
First, Raserei I don't believe that every male chaneller that hears voices is hearing his previous life. I believe they are hearing A previous life of someone. Rand being ta'veren means that there would be a previous life a little &quot;closer&quot; to him (per se) than the others because he actually HAS a past life. So while most male channelers may just get a random voice from the past (maybe like Mat) Rand actually has his past self.<br /><br />Hornsounder, The problem with Amasalen is that he has no connection with Rand and Lews Therin. He was called the Second Dragon because everyone associated the Dragon with destruction. But if you think about it he didn't fulfill any of the Prophecies of the Dragon.  So why is he any different than any of the other false Dragons over the years except for the fact he attracted a rather large following? On a minor point do you really think that RJ would hesistate to add another major character this late in the books. Looks like he continues to add new characters every book and this isn't exactly a character he could have added in the first few books. Besides as Three in a Boat pointed out, &quot;He could leave the third destroyer comment as it is, there's no need to expand on it.&quot;<br /><br />tarmanguydan2, ummm... I kinda think you are flitting around with your theories a bit. Read my original post as to why it couldn't be Ishy/Mor. As for Logain, he already exists. Why would RJ have him merge with Rand/LTT? The &quot;vaguely familiar&quot; face could be anybody in reality. Mat, with his infinite memories, is always seeing people he thinks are familiar before he places them to hundereds of years earlier. &quot;Familiar&quot; is not a strong support that it is Logain. I agree that the &quot;hazy&quot; images are the third destroyer but I also think this is the man in LTT's head. Rand can put a face to LTT now though he has never met him. As far as Logain being the DR for a time...well I don't see the pattern shifting to a non ta'veren, non hero for any space of time. But..um...maybe.<br /><br />I hope that cleared up most concerns or misunderstanding about this theory.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-30 15:52:29
subject: <b>Insanity of everyone</b>
body:
everyone read that cadsuane says that hearing voices is a sign of the madness, so everyone assumes that it is true.  well it seems that everyone forgot some things.  <br /><br />1) cadsuane may have removed 1 or more oath.<br /><br />2) AES SEDAI CAN LIE IF THEY BELIEVE THAT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING IS TRUE!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />now who feels like a moron <br />(raise my own hand, knowing that someone will find some way to find a crack in my impeccable logic)<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 19:21:01
subject: <b>metallica-man2</b>
body:
Both comments are true. Here are two questions that warrant asking if you are going to imply what you are trying to imply.<br /><br />1.  How does Cadsuane know that Rand is hearing voices? <br /><br />She hasn't met him before, has had no contact with anyone around him (they all thought she was dead, remember?), and to top off this question Rand hasn't told anyone anyways. Of course many of the Forsaken (especially Asmodean and Lanfear) have had times when Rand slipped something of LTT around them but they aren't likely to tell Cadsuane unless... maybe someone can make a theory out of that.<br /><br />If Cadsuane CAN'T lie then she has to honestly believe men who channel start hearing voices and in that case the only way she can believe it is if she has had other experience. The fact she &quot;has a nose&quot; for men who can channel might give her that experience. Ockham's razor.<br /><br />2.  Why would Cadsuane lie to him about it? <br /><br />Lying about something so simple could easily betray her as being BA or worse and kill any chance she had with Rand. Especially since the statement was made in the presence of at least 4 men who could channel (Rand and his Ash'aman escort). So if any of these men had hung around men who went mad (a rather common occurance at the BT) they would know if men indeed did start to hear voices when they went mad. If there was no precedence for men hearing voices they would have shot down Cadsuane in an instant. But look at their reaction. They knew. They all did.<br /><br />So while the question you raise is valid, Cadsuane could have been mistaken or lying, it is very doubtful. We have to assume that every man that goes mad starts hearing  a voice or maybe many voices. <br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 23:06:23
subject: <b>thanks</b>
body:
for clarifying that point.  i wasn't aware that 4 other channeling men had somewhat accepted cadsuane's statement as truth.  so...unless those men and cadsuane are all proven to be darkfriends, i'll be forced to assume that her statement was the truth(for now).  anyway, thanks for the info.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-13 16:40:28
subject: <b>just a snippet from Lord of Chaos</b>
body:
page 408 from lord of chaos to hopefully cause more rumblings.  <br />&quot;It was hard for him (Padan Fain) to concentrate on one thing for long anyway.  Except Rand al'Thor, of course.  He could feel al'Thor, could point to him, this close.  Al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt.  there was a difference lately, a difference that had come suddenly, almost as if someone else had suddenly taken a partial possession of al'Thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession.&quot;<br />


created: 2002-01-14 17:43:45
subject: <b>Hypoxia, I think he is talking about...</b>
body:
Alanna.<br /><br />This is the first time we get Fain's POV since the bonding. I figured this was the effect of the bonding on Fain. After when Ely, Min and Avi bonded Rand Alanna had a huge reaction. Knocked her out for three days. We can probably surmise that when Alanna bonded Rand it had some effect on Fain albiet a minor one.<br /><br />As for the effect on Fain of E,M, and A bonding Rand we'll have to wait until the next time we have his POV. He was unusually insane in Far Madding. <br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 18:30:30
subject: <b>here i go</b>
body:
I'll confess that I haven't read the big white book, or followed the Dragon debates in theory posts, so don't jump me if I sound juvenile in some thought process here ... I just reread the hornsounding series of events and have gotten doubly confused on Dragon stuff.<br /><br />When thinking thru all this stuff and reading y'alls comments, I see two points:<br /><br />One, is the taint related to the voices heard by male channelers? Or is it only by false-dragons, such as Taim who asked Rand about them? Do the other ash'aman ask about voices? Cadsuane mentions it, but not in specific reference to any past false-dragons, I think. So if the taint is removed, will Rand not haunt the next Dragon's head? ...as LTT, being the most recent Dragon, does to him? (Assume that LTT is the title given to the Dragon's soul/persona, as he's the previous)<br /><br />Two, is LTT always reborn as the Dragon? Regardless of his name and how recently he was the last Dragon, this is how he is addressed by the Heroes; who, themselves, apparantly use their most recent names still common to stories. I ask this because Hawkwing immediately goes to Rand, as LTT, and not Mat, who sounded the Horn ... and then he implies that  something is wrong, gets the banner, and confirms that the Heroes follow the Horn, but will first follow the Dragon. Therefore, if Hawkwing has fought against LTT 'more times than can be counted', does this mean that LTT has been reborn apart from the Dragon prophecy? (Assume that the banner just proves LTT as the Dragon, not that they follow the banner itself)<br /><br />If you have time to explain some of this, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.<br /><br />bloody_ashes


created: 2002-04-15 19:39:36
subject: <b>the blindfolded beggar and the blurry face</b>
body:
The Age of Legends was the Second Age.  So Mr. X (as you call him) was a hero from the distant First Age, back when &quot;men ran with wolves.&quot;<br /><br />There has been some hinting throughout the series that this third blurry guy was/is a blindfolded beggar.<br /><br />[Vol.1] Min views Rand as a beggar in the future.<br /><br />[Vol.3] Verin read a poem about the masks of the Dark One, which stated that humanity would require &quot;a Lie as a shield.&quot; Might this have something to do with Rand becoming a blindfolded beggar, or adopting a mask? <br /><br />[Vol.4, p.882 pb] Perrin dreams of Rand with his eyes bandaged. <br /><br />[Vol.7] Min views that Rand and another will merge, and one of them will die.  She also sees a third, blurry face. <br /><br />[Vol. 9] Rand has also begun to see this third, blurry face.  Lews Therin mentioned &quot;you, me, and the other&quot; during one of his rants, and &quot;the three of us&quot; another time. <br /><br />[Vol. 8?] Moridin (Ishamael) was in a bit of a snit about an ancient game he was playing from the Age of Legends.  The most important game piece- the Fisher- is carved to look like a blindfolded beggar with a bleeding wound in his side... and not even the Forsaken can remember the origin of the Fisher.  The Forsaken are from the Age of Legends, so this blindfolded guy must be from an earlier Age.<br /> <br />[Vol. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> Egwene dreams of Rand wearing many masks, and one of them becoming real.  Does &quot;many&quot; mean three; Lews Therin, Rand, and the blurry third?<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-28 15:52:26
subject: <b>madness....</b>
body:
How can a mad dragon exist before LTT ?<br />I far as i reameber did the Great Lord put the taint on Sadin AFTER that LTT sealed him. So how can LTT have a madman in his head ? <br />  - Somthing to think about<br />         - CoMaNdore


created: 2002-06-26 18:55:41
subject: <b>hey tarmanguydan2...</b>
body:
Just a quick correction, Ishamael means Betrayer of Hope, Destroyer of Hope is Sammael.<br /><br />Shadar Aman<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Shadow Dragon, or Dragon's Shadow? You tell me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />He Who Bathes With Twilight<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />Watcher of the Sea Lions<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 16:17:34
subject: <b>An additional thought.</b>
body:
Lews Therin mutters about having a madman in his head.  We've always assumed he meant Rand.  What if he didn't?  What if the madman in LTT's head is this Mr. X postulated in this theory?  Certainly something to consider.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 02:50:32
subject: <b>The Fisher is the Third Destroyer</b>
body:
The Third Destroyer is (I think) the Fisher. That 'king' of the chess board, which some people are trying to call Rand (I would be interested in knowing how they think Rand is blinded to complete his 'Fisher' look) was obviously a major, major figure in some deep past history. I picture three major cycles in the Wheel of Time - the Prehistory Age (with the Fisher as the saviour/destroyer), the Age of Legends (with LTT as the saviour/destroyer) and the Third Age (with Rand as the saviour/destroyer). This would fit the pattern that RJ writes with - as we all know from the start of every book:<br /><br />'The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legand. Legends fade to myth and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.' <br /><br />So the Third Age can barely (as myth) remember the Prehistory Age, with the symbol of the Fisher, and can remember the AoL well (as legend). In the Age of Legends, they would remember the Prehistory Age well as legend (as much as the Third Age remembers the AoL), and the Third Age distantly (as myth). And the Prehistory will remember the Third Age well (as legend), and the AoL distantly (as myth). But as RJ tells us, an Age can never remember the last time the Age came around, which is what would be happening if the Fisher is Rand. Otherwise we might assume that the old old myths of the two giants fighting and such (which Birgette had memories for) could actually be Perrin fighting a Trolloc, or some other rubbish.<br /><br />Now this neatly tells us who the Third Destroyer is - he is the voice of the previous saviour/destroyer, the Fisher. Now that LTT is in Rand's head, LTT refers to all three of them, but I don't think LTT could have heard Rand in the AoL (that wouldn't make sense), so in the AoL, LTT would only have heard the Fisher. Could the Fisher have heard Rand? Who knows, depends on how this series ends, but I doubt it. I think that the reason Rand can hear LTT is that LTT died by drawing in too much Saidin. Possibly when you do this you become one with the one power, destroying your body. So LTT has been trapped in Saidin for the last 3000 years (with the taint - a good reason to go mad, again), and when his reincarnated soul (Rand) taps into Saidin, he has a channel back into his previous body. And remember, Rand didn't hear LTT until he started using Saidin. Of course the flaw here is why don't other people have the presence of past lives that overdosed on the One Power? Well, maybe women don't, as living in Saidar would be pleasant, while living in the taint/Saidin would not. And maybe it takes extreme strength of will to maintain an image of self while being trapped in Saidin for so long, so that many souls loose their individuality and become part of Saidin. If anyone could be expected to keep themselves 'alive' in Saidin for 3000 years, it would be LTT with his power/knowledge/guilt. So I picture the Fisher dying in this way, and 'infecting' LTT, then LTT dying in this way and 'infecting' Rand (with his memories of when the Fisher 'infected' him). Hopefully Rand will not die in this way, so the Fisher is unlikely to be visited (which makes sense - only LTT and Rand have the 'madness' of the taint to make them doubt the voices). <br /><br />Of course, what we need is a novel of the Age of Legends, staring LTT and the forsaken - personally I'd love to read this, even if we already know the end.<br />


created: 2002-07-31 03:02:43
subject: <b>A few things</b>
body:
First, LTT went mad and if we all accept the whole &quot;the taint breaks down the barriers between lives&quot; thing then, regardless of the state of the First Age Dragon (mad or not) LTT would have had him in his head.  And because LTT had the First Age Dragon in his head, and Rand has LTT in his head then the First Age Dragon is reachable by Rand.  I felt that someone had to say that straight out.  <br /><br />  Also, Adrain, there are Seven Ages, not only Three.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 22:26:38
subject: <b>What I really meant...</b>
body:
Thanks for your comments:<br /><br />As to there being Seven Ages, not only Three, I didn't mean to imply that there were only Three Ages, just that only Three of the Seven Ages ended with the major destruction of the world by Fisher/LTT/Rand. There could also be other Ages where nothing much happended, just a slow progression of humanity.<br /><br />Secondly, you quoted that &quot;the taint breaks down the barriers between lives&quot;. This is by no means known yet. The voices that other male channelers may hear (and we certainly do not know how many hear voices) could be due to other things - LTT trying to get into the mind of every male channeler to excape his prison in the taint/saidin (which explains the voice and false dragons - LTT could have simply been more successful with Rand as they share the same soul), or just an early indicator of insanity (after all, they do go mad soon after). Also, if it is the taint breaking down the barrier between past lives, do we have no LTT in Book 10? I sincerely doubt it, as LTT and Rand are due to merge ~Book 12. And you say that &quot;because LTT had the First Age Dragon in his head, and Rand has LTT in his head then the First Age Dragon is reachable by Rand&quot;. Now this isn't necessarily true - does Rand ask a madman to pass on messages to the Fisher? And you said yourself that LTT had the Fisher (or Third Destroyer) in his head, while Rand has LTT is his head. The Fisher may be absent from LTT now.<br /><br />Finally, the whole point of my comment was just that the Fisher is the Third Destroyer (not Rand), and I was just using the One Power over-dose to trap and the taint to drive insane as a means for LTT to be in Rand's head.<br />


created: 2003-02-09 17:13:10
subject: <b>The Lord Fisher</b>
body:
I believe there is a hint that there was a Dragon for the First Age in the prologue of TEotW (Dragonmount). Elan Morin (Ishamael) said that Lews Therin is called Dragon and implied that LTT didn't like the title. To me, this meant that the Age of Legends had records of the previous savior/destroyer and memories of this Fisher made the title repugnant to Lews Therin.<br />Heck, this destroyer may be the 'Great Red Dragon' in the Bible's Revelation! This Great Red Dragon is prophesied to end our Age, and we assume that the First Age is our own Age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 09:40:04
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
I think that &quot;the other one&quot; LTT refers to is another incarnation of the Dragon.  I'm actually rather surprised that any other theories have been offered on this (but then I'm surprised that people doubt Taimandred too).<br />Guaire Amalasan has nothing to do with it.  <br />But why assume &quot;Mr. X&quot; is from the first age?  Maybe the 5th.  Or the 6th.  <br /><br />BTW- Did he spell that chesspiece the Fisher or the Fischer?  I thought it was Fischer but maybe that's just b/c I took it for an homage to Bobby Fischer (who is btw- a madman (I wonder if that's an obscure RJ joke)).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-20 21:42:32
subject: <b>Something to add</b>
body:
Being me, I have found an extra piece of evidence that I can't make into a whole theory, so here's a bit of evidence.<br /><br />&quot;That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw.  It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's.  Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too.&quot; (Path of Daggers)<br /><br />We know that LTT is now in someone else's mind, but your &quot;Mr.X&quot; may also be in LTT's dreams as well as his mind. As we know, LTT's dreams are starting to come into Rand's. Could the barrier between Rand and LTT be breaking to the point that the person talking in LTT's mind is startring to invade Rand's dreams? I don't think it could go to the next level, because supposedly the end of a full cycle of the Wheel wipes out all memories of previous Ages. Just another added thought-Could every odd Age be one where everyone KNOWS the Breaking is coming? Or is this Age just &quot;special&quot;? Who knows! Anyways, I LOVED the theory, it was something I haven't heard before. <br />


created: 2005-03-29 01:16:49
subject: <b>Simultaneous voices?</b>
body:
One thing that's always bugged me was the fact that Ishy healed LTT using the True Power, so when LTT died he was sane, yet when he speaks to Rand he is quite clearly mad.<br />Two possible explanations:<br />LTT is completely dead and out of the picture and the voice in Rand's head is simply that - a voice caused by the madness. Rand believes he's the Dragon Reborn and everyone believes the Dragon died in madness and grief after killing everyone he loved, therefore if Rand's subconscious was going to create a persona for the madness, the raving LTT is exactly what he'd come up with.<br />I don't like this theory as Rand clearly &quot;knows too much&quot; - memory's from AOL, being able to draw, knowing song lyrics, names and info from LTT.<br />Another possibilty is that Rand is in LTT's head as much as LTT is in Rands. In &quot;Magician&quot; an awesome fantasy book by Raymond E Feist, one of the main characters Thomas discovers a suit of magical armour, last worn by Ashen Shugar a demi god from the ancient past with incredible powers. As the story progresses, Thomas begins to acquire personality traits and powers akin to Ashen Shugar's and he begins to hear the demi gods voice and memories in his head. We also find out that in the distant past, Ashen Shugar himself finds his mind being corrupted by the thoughts and memories of a simple human boy - Thomas. While Thomas is hearing voices from the past, Ashen Shugar is hearing voices from the future.<br />Could this be happening with Rand? Several times LTT expresses the thought that Rand is actually a voice inside his head... <br />biggest problem with this is that LTT reacts to external things around Rand while Rand has absolutely no awareness of what's happening around LTT...<br />Still it's an interesting idea?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-03 12:12:17
subject: <b>LTT mad?</b>
body:
LTT being mad post-healing isn't much of a problem really. Clearly he's suffered from two distinct madnesses. The first, being wholly taint-induced whereupon he goes on a mad Kinslaying rampage, the same madness that afflicted the other male channelers seemingly. Then upon being healed of the taint he is rendered lucidly concious of his previous crimes, which, essentially making him mad again: his first (and last) actions upon being aware of his crimes being to wail bitterly and then kill himself.<br /><br />&quot;&quot;Ilyena! Light help me, Ilyena!&quot; ...his sobs the full-throated cries of a man who had nothing left to live for ...His howl beat at the walls, the howl of a man who had discovered his soul damned by his own hand, and<br />he clawed at his face as if to tear away the sight of what he had done.&quot;<br /><br />In short, LTT's 'mad' presence in Rand's head is not that of taint-madness, rather (if we accept the 'remembers-too-much' argument), there are two technically sane conciousnesses in Rand's head, albeit both becoming increasingly unstable by the extremity of their condition.<br /><br />In any case within the WOT universe, despite time being circular causation within turnings seems to be pretty coherent- hence I think that the LTT-in-Rand is simply the LTT conciousness post-healing delivered into the future Rand's mind (hence is he experiences the present that Rand experiences), rather than Rand (present) and LTT (past) being directly (simultaneously) interconnected.<br />


created: 2006-04-18 04:58:48
subject: <b>How to solve the last battle problem</b>
body:
Rand could easily find out how to win the last battle by finding out how he did it last time.  Just ask LTT to ask Mr. X to ask the next guy and so on.  Then have them relay the message back to Rand.  Granted this is beyond improbable due to us being on the last book now but still, it could potentially work.  <br /><br />and another thing, why would the voice in LTT's head be mad?  The source was untainted was it not in the age before the age of legends? Perhaps the DO still sealed up.  An age that ended for no good/evil type reasons.  Like the end of the industrial age or some such.  Maybe something else just came along and changed the world w/out a huge battle with the shadow.


created: 2006-09-19 18:06:31
subject: <b>Fishy ishy</b>
body:
Just been re-reading tEotW and in one of the first dreams Rand has with Ba'alzamon, he claims to have whispered in Lew Therins ear to kill his family and friends along with a load of other claims (such as getting Hawkwing to send his armies accross the ocean so they would have to return). I dont know what that does to your theory because he could just be trying to get a rise out of Rand (or Lews Therin in rand?), but there might be something in it.<br /><br />just some bloke


created: 2006-12-30 22:02:48
subject: <b>I think from now on the third destroyer should be referred to as Sam</b>
body:
I mean, come on, Sam is so much easier, and it means destroyer (of) in the Old Tongue for God's sake!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-09 07:39:20
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
If Mr,X is in there would there not be another separate voice that rand could distinguish as different.LTT could when he went mad ,Rand knows the voice isnt his its LTT.But here is and idea maybe its the DO.


created: 2001-12-13 15:05:58
subject: <b>Myrddraal are not separate creations...</b>
body:
From the Big White Book:<br />&quot;Trollocs do not always breed true; instead they sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or the human side of their genetics.  The throwbacks to the animal half die, but the throwbacks to the human side usually survive, though corrupted by the evil of their original makers, and are called Myrddraal.&quot;<br /><br />Anyway, it is definately a reasonable guess to say that the channeling spark was present in the original human stock that created Trollocs, and still crops up in Fades.  It would also explain the strange powers that Fades have...they can't exactly channel, but they have twisted powers because their spark is corrupted.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 15:10:32
subject: <b>Re: Where do Myrddraal come from</b>
body:
In reference to Raserei comments, I think that Trollocs breed and sometimes the resulting offspring are Myrddraal because of recessive genes. I cannot give you the reference for this as I do not have my books handy at this time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> HTT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 15:13:07
subject: <b>Myrddraal</b>
body:
In the WOWOT or the BWB it is stated that myrddraal is what happens when the &quot;human&quot; part of the trolloc become too strong. It is also stated that when the animal become too strong, the result often dies. That&#180;s it.


created: 2001-12-13 15:56:39
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
That was nice to hear 3 times in a row.<br /><br />I really can't decide if  agree with you. It could well be that the only time there are human throwbacks born from trollocs is when they have the spark and that's why Myrddraal can do what they do. However the things that they do do...well, they don't seem to be connected to the One Power really (and I certainly don't think they can channel the True Power). The idea of them disappearing on the edge of a shadow seems kind of One Powerish, but the fact that their cloaks hang still no matter what the wind is doing doesn't seem like it could come even from a mutation of the spark.<br /><br />I don't think we'll ever find out how Myrddraal do what they do, not if their creator doesn't really understand it (plus he's dead).


created: 2001-12-13 15:57:12
subject: <b>WOW!!!</b>
body:
This is perhaps the best theory I have EVER read. I always thought Myrddraal could channel; this explains how.<br />Kudos to the author <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 16:10:53
subject: <b>That's not how I read it.</b>
body:
Yes, the more-human throwbacks live and the more-animal throwbacks die.  But that isn't the same as saying that the more-humanness or more-animalness is what causes the throwbacks.  Something else entirely (like the spark) could be causing the throwbacks, and the disproportionate animalness or humanness could influence only the surviveability of the throwback. <br /><br />Or possibly the channeling gene (or whatever) causes the throwbacks AND determines their surviveability, and it just happens that it also determines that the more surviveable throwbacks are more human and the less surviveable throwbacks are more animal.<br /><br />For instance, maybe if the Trollocspawn only has one recessive channeling gene, then it will be both more animal and less surviveable (but not necessarily less surviveable <i>because</i> they are more animal).  And if the Trollocspawn has <i>two</i> recessive channeling genes, then it will be both a Myrddraal <i>and</i> more human <i>and</i> more surviveable (but not necessarily more surviveable <i>because</i> it is a Myrddraal or more human.)<br /><br />Or maybe two genes would cause the animal throwback, and two genes plus a special spark mutation would cause the Myrdraal/human throwback.  Whatever.  The point I was making is that their more-humanness or more-animalness could be another effect, not the root cause.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 16:12:00
subject: <b>Oops...</b>
body:
That statement was in response to Aan&#180;Allein.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 16:30:43
subject: <b>Still, where else could these powers of Myrddraal come from?</b>
body:
If not from some sort of ability to channel...<br />Let's see now. The gene for channeling being born in a Myrddraal, wouldn't they be able to channel, if they had the genetic structure for it? However, the corruptive influence of Shai'tan alters them. OR the 'evil' power that they get from the Dark One is... the True Power. It is Shai'tan's own power, and it stems from him... &quot;They have certain powers stemming from the Dark One.&quot; It makes perfect sense. Like the bonding they can do, the teleportation, the linking with Dreadlords in a circle. Perhaps the reason why channelers can be made to serve the Shadow by such a circle is that the Myrddraal use the True Power in the link and the Dreadlords use the One Power, and thus form an involuntary link with the victim channeler. Remember- men can be forced to enter a link. Perhaps with the True Power <i>any</i> channeler could be forced. I mean, otherwise, how can they force someone to serve the Shadow besides an involuntary link (and a bond might be involved, too)? It is so logical!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 16:51:59
subject: <b>RASERAI!?!</b>
body:
everyone i know Knows your Robert Jordan,<br />you should have known that!<br /><br />....or maybe your just tryin to throw me off your trail...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 17:04:31
subject: <b>It's a little too much</b>
body:
to assume that the Myddraals' abilities must come from the spark. You ask where else it could come from. Well, I dunno, but there are numerous examples of powers in WOT's world that don't have anything to do with the One Power: dreaming, Ogiers making trees grow, the Nym helping all plants to grow at an astonishing rate, Fain's powers, Min's viewings, Perrin's ability to talk with wolfs, ta'veren, possbly even what the Finn's do...all these things that we would consider &quot;magical&quot;, but none of them (except possibly Fain) have anything to do with the One Power.<br /><br />It might well be something to do with it, but just because the Neverborns can do something &quot;magical&quot;, doesn't mean it has to be something to do with the One Power.


created: 2001-12-13 17:22:13
subject: <b>Look'it Whitebridge!</b>
body:
Remember Thom and Rand and Mat, all the way in TEOTW? And how there was that lightning in that small conflict that Thom and the Myrrdraal had? I ALWAYS thought that it had smething to do ith the Power, and thanks to this theory, it only strengthens my beliefs. Yep. <br /><br />And to the dude that belives that this is just another &quot;magical&quot; thing, the fact that Myrrdraal are so closely related to the Dark One, and that their occurence in those &quot;breeding pits&quot; of trollocs is so similar to the occurence of the spark in humans (recessive genes and such) is too much of a coincedence for me. My two cents. ...What does that even mean anyway, my two cents? ...Huh.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />jvinny<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Goonie Member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Harry Potter Hater <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;And when I was eight, I pushed my sister down the stairs, and blamed it on the dog!&quot; -- Chunk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-12-13 19:07:59
subject: <b>This was a very interesting theory.</b>
body:
I liked it.  Very new, very original.  There appears to be some holes in it, pointed out by other posters, but still overall a very, very good theory.  The kind I like to read.  Good job el'poster.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for president


created: 2001-12-13 22:53:56
subject: <b>I Like this a hell of a lot.</b>
body:
Never really thought of that before. It makes all the sense in the world though. Like someone else said it may be a case of non OP related magic powers, but this idea does seem good.<br /><br />   By the way on the subject of Myrrdrals I've always wondered what's up with their cloaks. I mean surely they aren't born clothed right? So is the immunity from wind due to the material of the cloak, or to the fade itself? In other words if a Neverborn were to put on a different cloak (let's say a bright greean and orange pattern) would it be untocuhed by the wind as well? We've seen that the blades that they use are of a special nature and have to be constructed in a certain way. Perhaps their cloaks are similar, like an evil version of the material used for a Warders cloak.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 23:07:20
subject: <b>myrdrall</b>
body:
i remember it mentioned somewhere (eye of the world maybe?) that myrdrall are  the offshoots, rejects, the odd, of the trollocs<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 23:50:51
subject: <b>I've got an Idea about the animal throwbacks...</b>
body:
I just thought that maybe the animal throwbacks might have something to do with either dreaming or Perrin's ability to talk to wolves...  Just a thought...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watching Firefly DVDs repeatedly...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 01:52:11
subject: <b>Cloaks</b>
body:
Since we'll never know anyway, I'll go ahead and speculate as well. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If the Myrddraal are in fact created because of the channeling gene, then their strange abilities very well may be a twisted version of the power.  If so, then perhaps they project a field of air around their bodies that holds their cloaks completely still.  Why, you say?  What's the point of that?  I don't know...it's not like they were planned or anything.  Trollocs were planned; Fades were a surprise.<br /><br />Fades...<br />This brings me to another idea.  Perhaps their cloaks tie into their ability to move between shadows.  Black (what else would dress a Fade in?  anything else would be absurd) is the absence of light.  shadows are areas without light.  maybe they have a sense of the two being the same and Travel between shadows.  remember, one *can* Travel short distances without memorising the area beforehand.<br /><br />this is all just idle speculation anyway...something for my tired brain to do after work and before bed.  it all made sense in my mind, at least. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I thought I could organise freedom, <br />how Scandinavian of me.&quot;  -Bj&#246;rk<br /><br />&quot;Sex is a bad thing because it rumples<br />the clothes.&quot;  -Jackie Onassis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 02:01:36
subject: <b>This was submitted as a theory, I thought it would belong here...</b>
body:
&quot;<i>This is kinda a simple short thought provoking theory. Maybe the Trollocs are breed from channelers and when they throw back to animal, they have no channeling ability, and the Myrddraal are the ones with the spark, this could explain why Aes Sedai can sense shadowspawn within a certain distance, maybe being a trolloc mutates the ability so that it is easily sensable. anyway that's my 2 cents of that topic.</i>&quot;<br /><br /><blockquote>-Shadowight79</blockquote><br /><br />Discuss amongst yourself. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 06:24:04
subject: <b>I never</b>
body:
said that I thought it was something &quot;magical&quot;, I was pointing out to the guy who thought that it must be the spark theory as there's no other explanation, that there are in fact other possible explanations.<br /><br />That last comment, I think there are too many trollocs for them all to have the human ability to channel within them while the Myddraal have the spark.


created: 2001-12-14 12:37:41
subject: <b>Sparks</b>
body:
I like the theory, and would like to add a possible explanation for only half of the misbreed surviving:<br />Maybe those with the male spark survive and become Myrdraal (or has anybody ever heard of female fades?) and the female get &quot;animalish&quot; and die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />. That would be exactly like Shai&#180;tan and tainted <i>saidin</i> (perhaps the taint being responsible for the survivability)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 13:59:39
subject: <b>were there not trollocs during the war of power?</b>
body:
if so, then they were around before the taint.  saidin would have nothing to do with which became myrddraal.<br /><br />i like the overall theory, but as someone else said above, this is all just speculation for the hell of it, since we're not likely ever to know for sure.<br /><br />fun though.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 16:05:07
subject: <b>Myrdraal can channel - At least Shaidar Haran can</b>
body:
Do any of you remember when Shaidar Haran had Moghedien captured in that weird little jail cell place?  He did in fact use the true power to shield her. Here's why:<br /><br />-Moghedien was not the only person shielded in that manner.<br />-The 'gars were also shielded (by our good friend Mr. Haran)<br />after they were reincarnted.  they couldn't sense the source at all bu they knew they weren't severed.<br /><br />Remember how Shaidar Haran made Moghedien learn instant obedience.  He beat her when she did not comply.  When he takes her from her prison to Moridin, something very odd happenss.  He tells her to close her eyes, which she does immediately.  Then he grabs her head and lunges her straight at the wall.  Mog. thinks she's going to die.  Only, she doesn't hit anything. When she opens her eyes, she's in Moridin's cell/living place.  What happened is, after Mog. closed her eyes, Shaidar Haran opened a gateway straight to Moridin's cell, proving that he can channel the true power.<br /><br />Whew.<br />


created: 2001-12-15 16:43:27
subject: <b>Other things are possible, but that Myrddraal can channel is the most logical explanation.</b>
body:
Blip, I have nothing to say here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 18:08:55
subject: <b>I don't...</b>
body:
think we can compare normal Myrddraal with Shaidar Haran though. Hopefully we will discover why he can channel the True Power soon, he's certainly an extremely interesting character.


created: 2001-12-15 21:25:50
subject: <b>Myrddraal/Trollocs Genetics</b>
body:
I don't know if any of you have read  the book ROBERT JORDAN'S WHEEL OF TIME by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson but it says, (and I tink the books do to. somewhere in WH I believe)that Myrddraal are throwback offspring of trollocs. Good thinking I never thought of the One Power Being involved In Shadowspawn. Maybe other Creatures of the Shadow Can Use The OP too.(Drakar, Darkhounds, etc.


created: 2001-12-16 22:03:18
subject: <b>Shadows</b>
body:
I think when Shaidar moved Moghedien, he did the little shadow-travel thing.  Call me crazy, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duriora Virtus<br /><br />If anyone can translate that into English, e-mail me, please.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 01:29:01
subject: <b>They have the spark...</b>
body:
I believe that they do in fact have the spark.  Why do Myrddraal only do certain things?  Because they only know certain weaves.<br /><br />But I am not sure.  I need to do research to find out if anyone (male or female) who knows how to detect men channeling has been around a Myrddraal when it has used any of its powers (other than simple Trolloc control, since the Warder bond isn't felt).<br /><br />As of channelling to move Moghedien, it doesn't have to be a simple gate.  If they don't channel but do use shadows to move as some innate, Dark One given power, then it would seem appropriate that the no-eyed Myrddraal told Moghedien to close her eyes before using the power.


created: 2001-12-17 09:59:09
subject: <b>to Raserei</b>
body:
hey, ras, i couldve sworn that many times within the books that it was said that the myrddraal, were the even more twisted offspring of trollocs, a half breed breeding to produce a slightly different offspring with more human physical qualities than the trollocs themselves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-17 10:33:32
subject: <b>Shadar Haran</b>
body:
Well, mebbe not all the Myddraal have the spark, but perhaps they can learn.  Perhaps Shadar Haran is the first Myddral ever born with the spark, and that's why he is given so much power


created: 2001-12-18 02:02:04
subject: <b>Cloaks</b>
body:
Well, I have to believe the Myrddralls do indeed have to affect their cloaks in some way, and it's not a property of the cloak (like invisibility is to fancloth).<br /><br />TGH ch10:! (right at the end, at least)<br /><br />&quot;They rode away leaving the dead Myrddraal where it hung, the wind stirring its black cloak.&quot;<br /><br />This has to mean that whatever made the cloak hang motionless stopped when the Myrddraal died. And that means that the Myrddraal stopped doing it. Since there is no telekinesis or 'chi' in WoT, it has to be the Power, One or True.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-19 13:30:14
subject: <b>Fades Genetics</b>
body:
Another random thought I pulled out of...well, let's not worry about where I pulled it out of...is this:<br /><br />The black cord seen by Rand while battling Forsaken.  The other-wordly, out of existence linking cable I like to think of it as.  Allegedly the cord that links the Forsaken to the DO and/or the True Power.  Could it be, that the Fade having the 'spark' gene and the human stock, actually works as a conduit linking a human to the DO and/or True Source?   The 13 channelers and 13 fades forcing someone to serve the DO by A.)Shielding and holding them.  B.) Against their will fastening a link (the black cord) to the DO.  If a Fade has even a mutated form of access to the True Source, giving it the ability sense channeling, move through shadows (a form of traveling), and 'bond' (I use that loosely) to trollocs, maybe it all ties together.  Perhaps the Forsaken having to 'willingly' come to the shadow, involves dreadlords and fades in a similar procedure to the 13/13 forced technique?  This does start to implode on itself, but it is an idea that someone else might be able to delve deeper into.


created: 2001-12-27 19:50:02
subject: <b>I don't think they can channel...</b>
body:
I don't think Mydraal have the ability to channel, with one exception.<br /><br />In the Big White Book, it says the Mydraal control the Trollocs with fear from its eyeless gaze. Not some sort of Warder-like bond.<br /><br />Mydraal all have the same 'uniform', black armour, the sword, and the cloak. My theory is that the cloak is a type of fancloth, like warders' cloaks, so that doesn't require chanelling either.<br /><br />I would assume that Mydraal are some sort of gene mutation (sorry i'm not a geneticist), not necessarily the spark or channelling gene. <br /><br />Shaidar Haran is a Mydraal who is perhaps the Mydraal Jesus Christ or something. As in, 'Hand of the Dark', a Mydraal specially selected by the Dark One. And therefore, he would probably be allowed to use the True Source.<br /><br />So, Mydraal can't channel, but Shaidar Haran can, because he's the Dark One's best bud. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-30 02:55:33
subject: <b>Interesting Theory...</b>
body:
But I think a lot of you are taking the Myrddraal channeling to literally... they wouldn't be channeling so much like we see Aes Sedai and Asha'man channeling, but more like the tricks that Wilders can do without conscious control. Like Nynaeve's Healing while she was still Wisdom of Emond's Field... she didn't &quot;weave the flows&quot; or in any way know she was channeling, but she accomplished it through unconscious manifestation of the spark. Most Wilders acquire some trick or skill... rudimentary compulsion to get daddy to buy her a new dress... a trick to eavesdrop on someone, etc. Since Myrddraal (before Shaidar Haran) have all been completely and totally identical, it only makes sense that they would have identical abilities. This could also explain why they can only Travel from shadow to shadow... it is their block, like only channeling when angry or not being able to affect things at a distance.<br /><br />Further, here's how the coffee table book describes the bond -- &quot;In time it was discovered that Myrddraal could link with a number of Trollocs, completely overriding their bestioal nature and taking control of their minds and wills...&quot;<br />Sounds to me less like a Warder Bond and more like a high level of Compulsion.<br /><br />As for the cloak, I tend to just accept Aginor's explanation, since he studied them more than anyone who ever lived... According to Aginor, as a result of the corruption of their genetic stock, they exist just slightly out of phase with the real world... mirrors reflect only fuzzy blurred images, and the cloak doesn't move with the wind...<br /><br />Here's a thought... perhaps holding themselves just out of phase with reality is another of their learned powers... in other words, it's something that the Myrddraal does, rather than the natural state he is in. That is why the cloak of the dead Myrddraal did stir in the wind... since he was dead, he was unable to hold himself out of phase, and entered the real world fully. <br /><br />Being &quot;out of phase&quot; could also explain why their channeling is undetectable by channelers of either sex. Perhaps one cannot detect weaves or flows out if they are out of phase with our reality.<br /><br />Again, I would still tend to think that none of this is done on the Myrddraal's conscious level, but that these abilities are as automatic to the Myrddraal as breathing. The book makes no mention of what a Myrddraal child would be like, but presumably they do not have these abilities at birth. They would go out of phase at the same time the spark manifests itself, and then all their &quot;powers&quot; would appear. Since, again, all Myrddraal are equal, this would happen at exactly the same age for all of them, and would therefore appear to be a normal property of the species rather than an effect of the Power. According to the coffee table book, the Myrddraal themselves don't know how they do it, just that they can. That is in line with the way Wilders channel.<br /><br />As for Shaidar Haran, I think it's clear that he's a special case and has been granted special powers by the Dark One. I don't think his abilities can be taken as indicative of all Myrddraal.<br /><br />All in all, an interesting theory, and one that I think deserves some serious consideration...


created: 2002-01-07 08:34:59
subject: <b>Comparison to the Nym</b>
body:
Ok Myrddraal can't channel there's no evidence.<br /><br />However if we compare the Nym to the Myrddraal it may explain some of the things that have been disscused. The Nym were constructed using the OP, they don't channel yet they do use the OP (another example are chora trees). So it may be assummed that Myrddraal also don't channel yet use the OP or TP.


created: 2002-01-31 19:38:07
subject: <b>not bad</b>
body:
this isn't a bad theory...I haven'tread all the books yet but...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 19:58:22
subject: <b>just letting ya know.</b>
body:
about the &quot;myddrall, genetics, and the spark&quot; theory.  the theory sounded very plausible, im just pointing out that the guy who wrote a reply to the theory mentioned not knowing whether trollocs and myddraal had a genetic connection.  myddraal are throwbacks of the trolloc breeding.  they have more relation to their human side.  <br />   also, myddraal were accidentally created.  simply an unknown biproduct of mixing human/animal tissue/dna/whatever. <br /><br />  its all in the books.<br /><br />brian


created: 2002-05-17 08:02:21
subject: <b>yeah right, some of u were wrong</b>
body:
aviendha al'thor<br /><b>In the Big White Book, it says the Mydraal control the Trollocs with fear from its eyeless gaze. Not some sort of Warder-like bond.</b><br /><br />no, some myrrdraal control them with a bond that makes them die when the draal does, also makes them obey all the time<br />heartshade<br /><b>if so, then they were around before the taint. saidin would have nothing to do with which became myrddraal.<br /></b><br />well... just cuz it wasnt tainted doesent mean that it cant be saidin/saidar linked to who survives, there are a lot of differences between saidin/saidar so this could be one of them......


created: 2002-12-11 01:40:56
subject: <b>Thank You</b>
body:
For those of you that read the theory, and understood what I was trying to say, thanks for helping to clarify it to others.<br /><br />Who ever pointed out that everyone was taking the Myrddraal channeling too literally, special thanks to you<br /><br />I thought I was clear in the theory, but eh, who knows?<br /><br />Gone


created: 2007-05-18 13:23:11
subject: <b>Myrddraal, OP and TP</b>
body:
I think this is a great theory post.  However, I do not think that Myrddraal and channel OP consciously.  They may be able to use it to do certain things such as bonding Trollocs, traveling by shadows (unless these are accomplish with TP, which may be the case, but no evidence either way), but this does not indicate conscious control over OP.  In fact in Semirhage's POV while she is torturing the Aes Sedai (don't have the books on me right now to check on the name), she said that she in fact tortured several Myrddraals to death to see how they accomplish the traveling by shadows to no avail.  They themselves do not know how they do it, it is just something that they do.<br /><br />Moreover, because the myrddraal were created with TP and is thus tainted, I think their attempt to channel the OP would destroy them.  Just like in KOD, where Rand used the Deathgates on the shadowspawn (their mutation by TP makes them unable to go through gateways alive), I believe that the OP and TP interactions would be deadly for the Myrddraals.<br /><br />On the otherhand, because of their formation by TP, I think that perhaps they become perfect vehicles for channeling TP without the damages that TP would normally cause in humans (such as Ishamael/Moridin).  Of course, they would need to have the DO to permit their use of it.


created: 2001-12-14 03:04:19
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
if channeling is a genetic ability, as it seems to be...<br /><br />Bode Cauthon is in training to be Aes Sedai.  That means there's a good chance that one or both of her parents can learn to channel (but lack the spark, obviously).<br /><br />Knowing how Mat feels about the Power, how might he feel if he turns out to be the only non-channeller in a family of channellers? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I thought I could organise freedom, <br />how Scandinavian of me.&quot;  -Bj&#246;rk<br /><br />&quot;Sex is a bad thing because it rumples<br />the clothes.&quot;  -Jackie Onassis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 06:37:00
subject: <b>Tam for one</b>
body:
has already had his adventure and came back to the Two River's world weary. He may well be able to channel, but I don't think he'd even volunteer.<br /><br />For some reason Cenn Buie strikes me as quite likely. Scary.


created: 2001-12-14 11:08:47
subject: <b>Tam</b>
body:
I'm not sure I agree with three in a boat (but I always enjoy your insights, and I am NOT trying to flame you). Tam has already rose to the defense of the Two Rivers. Why wouldn't he stick around and help protect his own son?<br /><br />But I don't think he can channel. His area of expertise is soldier fighting. He's a blademaster, afterall. If he's around to help the Dragon reborn, I think it will be as his father and a blademaster.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 22:29:11
subject: <b>But Qal...</b>
body:
Couldn't the ability be recessive. I'm learning about genetics now and just because the child can channel doesn't mean the parent can. Maybe both parents are from a long line of heterozygotics when it comes to channeling, and only recently did the gene become recessive homzygotic. This of cours is going with channeling being recessive, due to its rarity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 01:16:32
subject: <b>To Raserei - with amusement</b>
body:
Hey Ras, why wouldn't Tam want to become a weapon? I mean, as it is, he could probably whip the northbound end off a southbound mule! In other words, (blademaster = living weapon).<br /><br />So Raserei, are al'Thors like Onions?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Layers! We both have layers! Onions have layers! Al'Thors have layers! You get it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 07:19:32
subject: <b>As Jyanna</b>
body:
pointed out, Tam isn't actually Rand's dad, so you can't use the argument that Tam's likely to be able to channel as Rand can.<br /><br />I think Tam defended the Two Rivers as he had to. I would think that if he had been inspired to further adventure by it, he would have taken more charge than he did.


created: 2001-12-15 14:40:52
subject: <b>Two Rivers Men?</b>
body:
I think people have ignored the possibility that perhaps scouring the two rivers men just means the ones that Perrin brought with him out of the two rivers.


created: 2001-12-16 15:15:31
subject: <b>The Blackthorn Bush....</b>
body:
Have we really seen any proof that the Two Rivers has been searched?  For some time it was dicussed that Taim's &quot;bush&quot; was Tar'Valon.  THat would be reason enuf for him to go personlly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 14:08:07
subject: <b>LOL @ Shattered!!!</b>
body:
I love Shrek!  Awesome movie!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 11:29:44
subject: <b>Asha'man who?</b>
body:
Has there not been several of the Two River young men folk run off to see adventure, So the women folk say.  I think it was in Lord of Chaos?


created: 2001-12-21 19:36:28
subject: <b>Yes, Taim went to Two Rivers...</b>
body:
or maybe some of those with Perrin went to the farm...either way, there's Two Rivers' men at the Black Tower.  Logain, in the Prologue of Winter's Heart, told some of the Dedicated to watch out for the Two Rivers boys.  &quot;Don't cuddle them, but don't let them killing themselves.  I don't think the Dragon Reborn would like us killing any more of his folk.&quot;  I don't have Winter's Heart, so I can't quote exactly, but I remember the part well.  Yes, there were Two Rivers boys.  <br /><br />It also said that they weren't more than 13 or 14...2 years older at the most.  Again, can't quote, but it said something to the effect.<br /><br />So I'm assuming that while this doesn't rule out any of the older Two Rivers men, we know that there are some of the younger ones there.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2001-12-22 22:40:59
subject: <b>Recessive</b>
body:
The ability to channel is a recessive gene.  it says so in th The World of RJ's The WoT page 30 paragraph 3.


created: 2002-01-16 12:48:54
subject: <b>Tam and the farm</b>
body:
I can see Tam going to the farm. But I do not believe that he can channel. If you think about when the farm was first started, who taught them the sword? A drunkard former Andoran Soldier. Who better than the father of the dragon reborn to support Logain in his efforts to &quot;clense&quot; the tower of Taim's Darkfriend scum. And afterward he could teach the sword to the new recruits. He is both a blademaster and knows about &quot;the oneness&quot; He is perfect for the job.<br /><br />Tormented with the Taint<br />&quot;Me being paranoid doesn't change the fact that everyone is after me&quot;~~~ME<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">taintedman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> king of my own little universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> flamer of stupid posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 19:29:07
subject: <b>Rand told Taim...</b>
body:
One of the Asha'man says something like, &quot;I heard it was the Lord Dragon himself who told the M'Hael to pick up anything male IN the Two Rivers that could channel, down to the roosters.&quot;  Perrin brought no roosters to Caemlyn.  It could also be Rand gave special orders to Taim to go openly for chanelers rather than his normal M.O. which is to recruit for the Legion of the Dragon, and test the recruits for the ability to Channel.  Rather than miss a potential male Nynaeve whose parents or wife wouldn't let him go become a soldier, or a man with no inclination to join the army, Rand likely just ordered Taim to go for channelers so the Two Rivers would not be dragooned into the Legion, and any potential madmen would be removed before harming the Two Rivers.  He obviously gave Taim special orders since he reminded him of the orders in early CoS, and Taim responded that he would handle it personally.  That being the case, one or more of the main characters' fathers could turn up at the Black Tower.  I have been thinking Cenn Buie since I read &quot;Snow&quot; a month before the release of WH.  It wouldn't surprise me to see him turn out great given a large purpose and new responsibilities.  Who would have thought Mat would make a good general before SR, or even until he actually led men in battle, yet CoS and WH demonstrate emerging leadership talents beyond any implanted memories.  Also look how bitchy women (Melaine, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Tylin) mellow out after they *ahem* 'get some.' Channelling, especially without the taint, is supposed to be a lot of fun, too.  This could be the redemption of Cenn Buie!  Remember Tam pointing out that the men on the Council were selected because their judgement is trusted &quot;even Cenn.&quot;  That implies some intelligence and character lurking deep down inside.  Wouldn't you be a crab@$$ if you spent 70 years as the village grump, when you had all this unrealized potential lurking within? Asha'man Buie forever!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 22:46:22
subject: <b>Re: Tam the Asha'man</b>
body:
As old as tam was he definitely would have gone mad quite some time before rand was even full grown.


created: 2002-03-15 03:18:10
subject: <b>re: Xeno</b>
body:
if tam was able to learn to channel (not forced to channel) like a lot of aes sedai, then he would not have gone mad.


created: 2002-04-17 18:30:47
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
okay, i think it would be awesome if tam could channel, and i KNOW at least one of the main characters from Emond's Field will be able to. but even if tam can't, do you think our good friend Mazrim Taim would mention the name of the Lord Dragon he is helping? would he only say &quot;the Lord Dragon&quot; or might he mention the name &quot;Rand al'Thor&quot;? it would cause quite a stir if people found out who the &quot;Lord Dragon&quot; was.


created: 2002-06-11 22:13:03
subject: <b>I Seriously Doubt It...</b>
body:
Like Panic pointed out, Tam knows the flame and the void trick. Wouldn't he know whether or not he could channel? Tam is a blademaster, a former high-ranking soldier in the Illian Army, the father of the Dragon Reborn (ok, so he's not really Rand's dad, but he raised him)... don't you think that's enough for one man? He has to channel now, too? I don't think so. Sorry, but my thumbs are about as down as they can get when it comes to this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-20 15:28:49
subject: <b>Cenn Buie!</b>
body:
The Tam theory is pretty much out, he already knowing the void and all, but then again Rand knew the void way before he leart to channel, but he never really channeled until the events of TEOTW, so Tam might still have a shot at wearing that nifty black suit. Now, Cenn Buie channelling.. whew.. that's a thougt.... I wonder what Nynaeve would think of that..<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-08 06:11:50
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
First, Xeno, you said if Tamlin could channel, he'd already gone mad. How old is Damer Flinn? he spent 40 years in the army, he has a thin fringe of white hair, Demandred in WH (chap 35: With the Choedan Kal) discribe Damer Flinn as an old man many times. Is Damer Flinn mad? I don't think so.<br />I've always wondered why Tamlin won't go with Perrin, I think he'd like to see his son (he went to Tar Valon to see him). And I really like the next meeting between Tam and Rand.<br />Many girls from Two Rivers could channel, more than anywhere. Moiraine said it's due to the strong old blood. Why can't men from Two Rivers channel? It'd be logic that as many men as women can channel.<br />Bodwin learns from Alanna or Verin that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. With the word of mouth, Tamlin could learn it too. If he's enroled in the Black Tower, he'd hide his name.<br />I don't say Tamlin is an Asha'man or not. I said just I would like it or Abel Cauthon. Cenn Buie... It'll bring a lot of laught it's right...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 03:03:47
subject: <b>It's likely.</b>
body:
Yeah, the whole void thing could cast something of a shadow on the chances of Tam channelling (one 'l' or two?), but if not Tam then who else?  Rand knew the void before he knew he could channel.  Flinn seems to be older than Tam and he just found out.  <br />I mean, I suspect it's pretty likely that someone from the Two Rivers that we've already met can channel, and really who else could it be?  Certainly not Matt's da or Master Luhan or Bran al'Vere, at least I wouldn't think so.  <br />I bet Tam is already in the Black Tower.  Now, correct me here if I'm wrong, but in Caemlyn didn't someone ask Rand about his parents and he told them Janduin was dead, and wasn't Taim there?  If so, then there wouldn't be so much of a problem with Taim going to the Two Rivers recruiting for the &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot; and not paying attention to someone with the last name al'Thor.  <br />Otherwise, it seems like Taim would take a special interest in anyone who could be related to Rand, and that could cause a problem, well, in the story.  <br />I think it'll be pretty interesting if Tam shows up when the Black Tower starts turning in on itself.  <br /><br />


created: 2003-04-13 02:37:56
subject: <b>age</b>
body:
Lord_Dragon:<br />Rand didn't chanelled before events in tEotW becouse he didn't reached to the age where you start chanelling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 13:27:59
subject: <b>Tam</b>
body:
Tam is not Rand's biological father.  His REAL dad was an Aeil.  jynna said that he probably got his ability from Tigraine, well since Tam is not his father, he is not a factor in Rand's channeling, and who cares which parent he recieved his ability from?  It certainly was not Tam.


created: 2004-02-25 21:25:57
subject: <b>Cenn Buie!</b>
body:
I just think that would be hilarious if that crumudgeon could channel! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-10-07 23:45:16
subject: <b>RJ angers me</b>
body:
While I really like all this discussion of the Two Rivers men at the BT, I don't think that Tam will be able to channel.  It just seems dumb to me that Tam would show up as an Asha'man, and then Rand would be like &quot;Dude!  Dad!  You can channel?  No way, me too!&quot;  and then Tam could be like,  &quot;That's right son, it's all in the family.&quot;  No, RJ won't resot to such a lame plot twist.<br /><br />However, Cenn Buie as an Asha'man!  That's hilarious!  I've always liked that dirty old man (see the prologue of LOC) and to watch him blast Trollocs into little bits would be the sweetest thing ever.<br /><br />Unfortunately for the Two Rivers men, I'm inclined to believe that their presence at the BT is no more than Taim's latest skeeze to piss off/hinder Rand in every way possible.  I've always thought that the bad guys should be able to see right through Rand's &quot;forgetting&quot; his home, and I think Taim's devised some sort of fiendishly clever plot to take Rand down therein.  That's why Logain's looking after them, because they're mere pawns in Taim's twisted game.<br /><br />Speaking of Taim and Logain, though, this BT conflict has been shaping up for what, 3 books?  4 books?  Ever since Logain told Egwene he wished he was at the BT.  We've all been spoiling for the point when Logain fries Taim with some nasty firebolt.  C'mon, RJ, get with it.<br /><br />There better be some sort of action in KoD or I'll...<br /><br />...keep...reading...the...series.<br /><br />Curses.


created: 2005-03-05 15:52:45
subject: <b>cant stop reading</b>
body:
ya i agree w u there. cantstop reading until its done and even not then hehe. als it wuld b funny as hell when rand goes to the BT and sees Cenn Buie blowin stuff up. ( now theres a scary thought) then again Asha'man Cenn Buie might not be such a good idea. think of hime before Rand Cleansed saidin, once he starts to go man (run for the hills!!!) STILL FUNNY BUT NOT SMART. EITHER WAY IS GOOD 4 ME THOUGH<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon will be raised up as the Shadow's Champion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-07 18:00:54
subject: <b>i agree with part</b>
body:
i dont agree with tam and the other ol' timers getting recruited as Asha'man but as for the part about the rift in the black tower, it's all there in black and white. <br /><br /><br />sort of a mini theory: the asha'man taim are training personally will join up with the black ajah, that are coming ever closer to exposure, and become the new dreadlords<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder<br />We danced among the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-04 18:17:45
subject: <b>Ewin Finigar (sp)</b>
body:
Memory may be a bit off, but we havent seen much of Ewin Finngar lately...pain in the butt in tEoTW, shows up again in tSR, If we see any one worth mentioning in the BT from the Two Rivers i'd put some money on him showing up, but like I said, memories a bit off so he may be with perrin or even dead not sure, also, as for Tam going to teach the sword at the BT, I dont feel theres gonna be enough time for all this in the last 2 books, The Light knows there are enough loose ends and unsolved problems to an end without adding to much more!


created: 2006-09-25 20:32:20
subject: <b>Tam?</b>
body:
I don't know about Tam al'Thor being able to channel... I don't think Jordan would want to through THAT much choas into the already chaotic world.  People would think there were two Dragons, just becuase they hear of two al'Thors.  Can you imagine?!?!? That would be hilarious though, I must say.


created: 2008-02-28 14:44:11
subject: <b>Can't see Tam as Asha'man</b>
body:
Call me naive, but somebody in this series has to be who and what they appear to be.  <br />On the one hand, Tam does know about the flame and the void...problematic...but he had to have been trained by someone.  Lan knows about it too, so maybe it has more to do with being Borderlander-trained or Warder-trained than any ability to channel.  <br /><br />I could see a bunch of the younger men being scooped up, as the girls were - think on that legendary Two Rivers ability with the bow - but it strikes me as odd that there are no stories about young men going mad or running away and never being heard of again, which would have happened if channelling was a common issue among the men.<br /><br />Either way, I think we are going to have more unanswered questions than answered questions, even after AMoL comes out in 2009.


created: 2001-12-14 06:01:32
subject: <b>dead by BALEFIRE</b>
body:
Rand killed Sammael using BALEFIRE, and so<br />REMOVING HIM COMPETELY FROM THE PATTERN.<br /><br />  But in tEotW when Aginor and Balthamel were killed balefire was NOT used, so they were just killed and NOT removed from the pattern. And since the grave belongs to the<br />dark one, he was able to bring them back to life, although in different bodies. <br /><br />  So the dark one can bring back ALL the dead forsaken NOT killed by balefire, only those entirely REMOVED from the pattern are beyond his reach.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The light at the end of the tunnel<br />is the headlamp of an oncoming train.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 06:42:03
subject: <b>How</b>
body:
can you be so sure that Rand balefired him? Perhaps mashadar got him. I'd still think that means he can't be brought back to life of course as I would think the soul would be trapped with the rest of the deadly mist rather than returning to the DO.


created: 2001-12-14 12:05:18
subject: <b>RJ said...</b>
body:
&quot;Sammael was toast.&quot;  Direct quote.<br /><br />he said nothing about balefire or mashadar, only that Sammael was out of the picture for a while.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 12:43:16
subject: <b>u said it</b>
body:
YEAH! you said it raserai, he said FOR NOW...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 16:44:52
subject: <b>I'm not doubting the authenticity of anyone's statements....</b>
body:
but could you give me a reference to these famed, quoted, Jordan says?  I'd like to read them myselves, if they exist.  Anything said in chat or in person would be totally unreliable, able to be interpreted or twisted by the reciever...or is it receiver...I can't tell, they both look wrong...I think it's receiver...anyway, somebody get me the reference to this, if'n ya doesn't mind.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid, <br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael.


created: 2001-12-14 17:50:55
subject: <b>NOBODY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM!</b>
body:
Rand isn't sure if Mashadar got him, or if he got him with balefire.<br />  Only RJ knows.<br /><br />  And who the crap is Taran'gar?!<br /><br />    Please do alot of research before you post a theory like this.<br /><br /><br /><br />   Wotfreak


created: 2001-12-14 22:32:49
subject: <b>Taran'gar</b>
body:
Taran'gar was the middle knife in the duel. The term was invented by a three-aremed freak who wanted &quot;to play with everyone else&quot;. Theres your research.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 22:39:45
subject: <b>Ras!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
You egotistical jerk! <br /><br />So if I write some BS theory and put you name on it, will you post that too?<br /><br /><br />Or do you get enough of me on the MB?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 01:04:44
subject: <b>Can't give you the place, exactly</b>
body:
But check the interviews in the Articles section, it's in one of them. RJ said, pretty much (I might have a few words wrong) &quot;Sammael is dead. He isn't coming back. He might be reborn, in another life, knowing nothing of Sammael.&quot;<br />In other words, he will nto be reborn. He is dead. Gone. Kaput. Not coming back.<br />And Ras, you could at least spellcheck this! Sammael, not samael! The quality is really slipping here, shame on you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 07:32:55
subject: <b>I'd say</b>
body:
toast implies burning and I have yet to see Mashadar burn anything.<br />Sammael is gone for good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 11:38:59
subject: <b>RJ said Sammael was toast...</b>
body:
So get ready to see a man-sized, evil, mutant slice of slightly charred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> bread to wreck some major havoc in Book 10! And then it gets eaten by Bela! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> I think there's a theory in here somewhere...


created: 2001-12-16 19:11:54
subject: <b>Good Lord Raserei</b>
body:
First, yes you are egotistical.  I am thinking about deleting this theory jsut to teach you a lesson <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Second, RJ said that Sammael was dead and that Mashadar got him<br /><br />Thid, Osangar and Arangar are the daggers<br /><br />So there.<br /><br />Meanders off to the theory post to possibly delete a stupid incoherent theory that should never have been posted...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 21:08:55
subject: <b>Taran'gar...</b>
body:
Osan'Gar + Aran'Gar = Both your knives, for both your hands...<br /><br />Perhaps Taran'gar = a knife used clenched between teeth? somewhere else? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 23:50:21
subject: <b>Thank you Ruhira (sp.)</b>
body:
Thank you for the reference.  I believe that maybe on the theory post (pay attention admins) you ought to put a link to these interviews under the useful tools so we avoid this.  I certainly did not know about them and could have and probably have been repeating something contrary to what RJ has said.<br /><br />This is the source, guys!  Put a link there!  I doubted everything anybody had said that Jordan had said, but I read the articles and believe...still there could be errors there, you are under no legal obligation but I sincerely doubt you would misquote on purpose.<br /><br />Therefore, lets at least advertise a little that RJ has said some things and *insert link here* is where you go to find it.  Perfect place:  with the other useful tools.<br /><br />But y'all still do a great job.  Just thought this might make some of our redundant, anti-jordan info theories disappear.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2001-12-18 15:07:51
subject: <b>CNN Interview</b>
body:
In the CNN Interview, you can read it in the articles section of wotmania.<br /><br />Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast! <br /><br />Guess that sums it up pretty well.<br /><br />Krane


created: 2001-12-19 11:09:44
subject: <b>yeah but</b>
body:
aginor wasn't balefired<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">why?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />why?is my question to you</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 23:55:33
subject: <b>Really? I thought he was...</b>
body:
actually, I'm kidding.  Just curious, what made you decide to tell us that Aginor wasn't balefired...I didn't see where anyone said that he had.  Thanx, though, for clearing that up!<br /><br />P.S.  Sorry if I came across as a smart (_|_), I'm tired and grumpy.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;I AM the Dragon Reborn...Just kidding.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />     -Logrim Ablaim-


created: 2002-01-03 12:45:11
subject: <b>To Logain 4</b>
body:
I have about 30 Jordan interviews, signing reports and online chats saved on my computer. You can have them all if you'd to read them, or you can check the summary of them I posted yesterday on the MB.


created: 2007-08-03 14:22:02
subject: <b>RJ is tricking us</b>
body:
When Jordan is saying &quot;Sammael is Toast&quot; i assume He is not returing as Sammael, but is it possible that Sammael's body is destoryed but his soul was consumed by Mashiara and he will come to try to kill rand as a more evil and stronger foe. I kno it is not proven but i hate to see such a powerful &quot;baddie&quot; killed off the way he was.


created: 2001-12-14 08:34:47
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
We kind of covered this recently, except it was in the theory of Lanfear being balefired back to before the time she drilled into the prison. We spoke a lot about how that might just tear the pattern apart and how everythin would change, possibly even for the worse, so it wouldn't be done. <br /><br />However I don't think this even could be done. I mean the bore is in no specific spot in the world, how precisely could you aim balefire at it? Is the bore even something that can be balefired? Can you balefire a hole even if it wasn't the bore? I don't see how.<br /><br />Just as a side point, I suspect trying to use the melted access key would burn out or kill any woman. There are of course others around if they can be found.


created: 2001-12-14 10:13:56
subject: <b>DO is not outside of time</b>
body:
I'm fairly certain that when the DO was talking to Demandred about Rahvin dying by balefire, he (the DO) said that even he could not step outside of time.<br /><br />So seen as he is not ouside of time it might be possible to balefire him to defeat him. but the wheel of time seems to have the DO as a vital part for a few ages of it so it would be pretty disastrous to balefire him.<br /><br /><br />of course if i remembered it wrong then this comment doesn't matter.


created: 2001-12-14 10:20:19
subject: <b>Balefire at T'armon Gaidon</b>
body:
I was of the impression that the way Rand would be brought back from the dead would be through balefire.  He gets killed by, let's say, Moridin.  The forces of good break and run.  The battle seems lost.  Only a few crazed and half-crazed Asha'man don't run.  Logain at their head steps up to the plate and fries Moridin with Callandor, the Choeden Kal or some other powerful device, thus undoing the death of Rand and making it so that Moridin was never at the battle.  Thus envigorated, the forces of good, led by Rand, surge back across the field of battle and rout the forces of the Dark One.  It's happened before, of course; when Rand fought Rahvin he undid the killing of Aviendha and everyone else who was crushed when that wall collapsed (I'd have to go back and look at Fires of Heaven to see who that was).  It WILL happen again.<br /><br />Kill them! Kill them all!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 12:43:52
subject: <b>Time Paradox</b>
body:
The question is, what would happen if time was taken all the way back to the age of legends. Rand was born under a very strange set of circustances. His mother ran away from home and joined the Aiel, and later Rand was born.<br /><br />So, if balefire is used that far back, the Aiel don't exist, and neirther does Rand, or chances are anyone else on the book, because nations weren't destroyed, rebuilt, etc.<br /><br />Therefore, if Rand no longer ever existed, he would never be able to balefire Lanfear, the DO, or ever else he might otherwise.<br /><br />Of coursem this is fiction (I think), so anything is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 14:25:36
subject: <b>But what you're talking about here</b>
body:
defeats the purpose of The Wheel of Time itself.  What's being theorized here is a reversal of the wheel.  Unspinning the the ages and people that were born, the &quot;lessons&quot; that have been learned. (by lessons I mean just the general evolution of the populous and the sociopolitical values that take hold, then change, etc.)  It takes away the validity of everything that happens and has happened, everything that the wheel has spun or will spin out.  Therein lies <i>one</i> of the reasons balefire is so dangerous.  It seems to me, using RJ's wheel, ages and such are REdiscovered/REinvented, so as.  What is the point of the wheel itself, and what's the point of RJ's poem &quot;The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and go...&quot; if the wheel is simply unturned to fix everything.  Someone has argued this point before (I cannot remember who) that i takes the wind out of the series itself, rendering it non-existant, a fiction of fiction.  I'm not trying to be mean...just feel I should say that...I have just been giving this some thought, because there was a theory recently closely related to this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 16:53:42
subject: <b>so what happens if...</b>
body:
Rand somehow becomes real and balefires Robert Jordan?  That'll fix it all, and none of it would exist.<br /><br />Just figured I'd take the next illogical step from lanfear to the dark one to Jordan.  <br /><br />Nothing against the theory, though.  It's good to think outside of the box, and you pretty much said in it that you don't believe it would happen and why.  But good imagination, none the less!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael.


created: 2001-12-14 17:19:33
subject: <b>LOL !<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
A balefire strong enough to eliminate Jordan thus wiping out our memories of him and his series, and ending the Jordan/Tolkien debate! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 18:57:43
subject: <b>I don't know why...</b>
body:
People seem to think that balefire wipes out memories. I think it's been pretty clearly shown that it doesn't. For example: everyone knows that Rand balefired Rahvin. Okay. So Rand balefires Rahvin. But he didn't *forget*  doing it (see Tor paperback p. 954). He didn't forget that Rahvin was, at once point, alive. And he hopefully didn't forget that Rahvin &quot;killed&quot; Morgase, because otherwise Gawyn is going to be very upset when/if they meet up. Rand, at least, has not had his memories erased by BF.<br />Nor has anyone else. When Bashere first arrives, he asks if Gaebril still lives (p. 957). So he remembers Rahvin, if not exactly who he really was. Or, Asmodean, just before death, isn't sorry that Rahvin is dead (p. 961).<br />While BF probably means that a person is forgotten over *time* (if insignificant AoL channeler is killed 3000+ years ago, no one remembers him/her today, even if the people of his/her time did), BF doesn't erase people's memories of them. If Rand were to live forever, Rahvin would never be forgotten, because as long as Rand didn't go senile, he'd remember that Rahvin was dead and that he killed him.<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-12-14 21:48:40
subject: <b>Support for Jynna</b>
body:
When Rand BFs the darkhound that had been drooling on Mat, Mat recalled the shadowslobber all over his arm even though it had &quot;never been there.&quot; <br />Perhaps where the controversy arrises is that Aviendha and the others who were killed don't ever mention being dead.  Here's a possible solution:  they were all hit by lightning, as I recall.  It's entirely possible that they simply never knew what hit them, and when it came to pass that the lightning &quot;had never hit them,&quot; they didn't remember dying because they never knew they had died in the first place!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 01:32:36
subject: <b>RJ did a typo! Nener nener nener!</b>
body:
Rand balefires darkhound that slobbers on Mat.<br /><br />The hole in the door is gone.<br /><br />Mat still has a bit of a wound.<br /><br />Problem: If Rand wasted the darkhound back to the point before they chewed a hole in the door, why did Mat still have a wounded arm?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Written by Rand alTOR and Shattered Seal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 03:42:36
subject: <b>What about where the seals are focused?</b>
body:
If Rand could remember where LTT and the Hundred Companions focused the power into the seals (where the seal of OP on the Bore is) then he and/or others could Balefire it.  Possibly, if that were to happen, it could go back to when Lanfear drilled the Bore and make little or no impact at all to the timeline.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 03:49:59
subject: <b>never mind that last one.</b>
body:
I just noticed that if he did that it would take out the seals when they were first made.<br /><br />Unless that was what made the sealing not completely seal the Bore.<br /><br />It could also be what made the Taint.  Think of it.  Your a male channeler, and time is trying to rip you apart.  Wouldn't that make you go just a little insane?  Possibly adding in the &quot;voices&quot; as past incarnations, talking to yourself through a rip in time?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 15:20:32
subject: <b>Hmm..</b>
body:
I think that balefire that powerful, and used on something with such a large influence on the pattern, would instantly cause the vaporization of the pattern and the destruction of the wheel.  Maybe that's what Fel meant by clearing the rubble. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-16 02:04:55
subject: <b>Second Verse - Same as the First!</b>
body:
Umm... someone else probably already said this, but this HAS been covered. It was also pretty thourghly disproven, if I may say so. Can't remember which theory though... Oh well, you're perfectly capable of finding it for yourself. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 14:25:03
subject: <b>Thoughts on Balefire and memory</b>
body:
If Balefire doesn't erase memory, why don't Aviendha and Mat remember being dead? I mean...obviously if they could remember,they would remember that.<br /><br />As for the Darkhound spit...you're right there. I ahdn't thought about that. Or maybe snot can't be erased from the Pattern...*grin*<br /><br />Time for me to go away before I start raving about the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn and all that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 00:04:06
subject: <b>Jordan's Typo...</b>
body:
I did find a Typo of Jordan's...<br /><br />In Lord of Chaos, Chapter 10 (A saying in the Borderlands) where he goes to the inn in Caemlyn and finds Verin, Alanna, and all the two river girls.  Right after Alanna bonds him, Rand seizes saidar.  and then...<br /><br />yes, I did say Rand seizes saidar.  That's what Jordan said...<br /><br />&quot;What did you do?&quot; he demanded.  In a fury, he seized saidar.  The strength of it helped hold him upright. &quot;What did you do?&quot;  <br /><br />...Now, this might be only the paperback version (pg. 281), but who knows?  Not that I care, I had just read that particular scene again before coming and getting on teh computer, and so-and-so's remark about a typo reminded me of that.  <br /><br />Just imagine if Rand could use saidar as well as saidin?  That would be awesome!  Anyway...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael.<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-17 12:16:32
subject: <b>The Dead Don't Remember</b>
body:
Mat and Aviendha and Asmodean don't (or didn't) remember being dead because there's no brain activity then.<br /><br />However, a lot of OTHER people remember them being dead.  Both Mat and Asmodean specifically said so in POVs. And, of course, Rand does as well.


created: 2001-12-19 11:13:37
subject: <b>errrr</b>
body:
how do you balefire something OUTSIDE OF THE PATTERN? you can't if he's outside the pattern and balefire only removes  threads from the pattern then it can't be done<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">why?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />why?is my question to you</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 02:40:09
subject: <b>The Dark One and the Creator</b>
body:
Again, i forget which book, but i remember it being explained by an Aes Sedai (i think) to either Rand, Egwene or Nynaeve that for every Age that comes, there is the Creator and the Dark One, just as there is a Dragon Reborn. So if the Creator is outside the Pattern, doesn't that make the Dark One outside too? If this is true (and only if), then if it is possible to balefire the Dark One, then it would also be possible (for the Forsaken) to balefire the Creator. <br />If the Creator-Dark One Outside the Pattern theory isn't true though, then this moot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 21:51:05
subject: <b>sorry but no</b>
body:
i don't think that this is possible for many reasons but the main one would have to be that the bore is not really something, it is just a spot where the dark one can be felt. The spot could be anywhere i mean it could have been in andor or even the two rivers in some other dimension that could be accessed through a Portal Stone. Now if u got Lanfear/cyanade nothing would happen because she has already died and it would just end that noble from dieing. So i am sorry but this probablly will not work, nope. The only way is to use the One Power sadian and sadiar together and try to seal the Dark One in. <br />thanks later


created: 2002-01-03 12:37:24
subject: <b>From a Jordan Interview</b>
body:
I read an interview with Jordan where he basically said that you could BF the Dark One, but BF that strong would destroy the entire world.


created: 2002-01-14 08:33:42
subject: <b>Time for a lesson class</b>
body:
There is a reason balefire was outlawed.... anyone? anyone?  IT'S TOO POWERFUL AND HAS A VERY BAD AFTER EFFECT Because balefiring the Dark One or the Bore or anything that plays that big of a role in the events of the world would create utter chaos!!!  And to the person who said that the Bore has no specific location in the physical world.....hmmm let's see..... SHAYOL GHUL!!!!! Not to mention THE PIT OF DOOM......<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-28 16:14:09
subject: <b>It will destroy the world, as we know it.</b>
body:
If Rand BF's Lanfear until before she was a sperm/egg combi and prevents the initial bore from being formed, the entire 3000 years will unwind to the point where the Bore was formed. The entire history of the world will change. The Age of Legends will continue onto even greater things and the entire set of events of WoT won't need to happen. The pattern of the last 3000 years will be destroyed, but not that before then.<br /><br />Maybe it will be an accident. Lanfear kills one or more of Rand's chicklets while he is using the Choeden key for something else and in the horror and pain of the bond breaking, he'll use BF, while still linked, to destroy her. Oops, oh bugger, we all never existed. And Lews Therin ain't mad any more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:45:17
subject: <b>i dont think so...</b>
body:
balefire rips anything it touches outside the pattern right? if you take away the dark one, there won't be a balancing force to counteract the light!<br /><br />the dark one represents the antithesis to the creator. i dont think that its possible to take any of them from the pattern... what would be the point? no more evil? its going to be one bland world... boring... that's my opinion... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-05 17:42:29
subject: <b>Why Mat still hurts after the Darkhound is BFed</b>
body:
Someone way up there made a comment on Mat still having a rash on his arm after Rand BFed the Darkhound at his door in the Waste.  Well, Rand balefired the Darkhound all right, but not so far back that he never got to the door.  I just read that aprt in the book, and he BFed him back to the point where the Darkhound had just gotten a tooth through the door.  A drop of saliva still landed on Mat's arm, which was the cause of the wound.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 21:57:27
subject: <b>Going for my PhD</b>
body:
I am all for the &quot;balefire the Bore&quot; theory.  BUT does it have to be the balefire we all know and love?  I mean, NO ONE can heal stilling/gentling, right?  Oops!  They did that!  So, the Age of Legends didn't know everything.  In fact, they took a heck of a lot for granted.  And balefire was anathema soon after it was first used (again?).  So, who had time to study all of it's implications?  Balefire is probably a very crude instrument at the time it was used in the WoP.  I think there could be more to Balefire Theory.  Well, how about if a 'form' of balefire was used?  Maybe breaking down the theory of constructing balefire (not that Rand really thinks about how he does it) would allow him to figure out how to eliminate just the Bore.  <br /><br />Look at it this way. Take a swatch (yes, I said swatch, learned about then in the olden days when you had to match the corsage to her prom dress!) Now, CAREFULLY grab just one single thread along one ragged edge and slowly pull it out of the weave.  Ok, so there is a gap in the fabric when you are done, but the fabric is still intact (mostly).  The other threads even remember the lost thread being there. Now, imagine that you could do a contained burn of that same thread... start at one end and burn it thru the fabric to the other end.  Same effect.  So, now the swatch becomes The Swatch from The Pattern.  Heck! Maybe that is why it is known as the Pattern and lives are the threads.  Because in the Age of Myth or even the Age before that, the one that is long forgotten before it comes around again, Balefire theory was the thing of Doctoral Theses!  Q.E.D&#8230; sorta. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Come back to us, Moiraine! I think we may need you soon!<br />


created: 2002-09-11 09:20:49
subject: <b>The DO not OUTSIDE time.</b>
body:
The dark one is not outside of time. He is the balance to the creator.<br />    As Herid Fel's books say there has to be balance for everything. This is not different with the Dark one.<br />I am not sure where it is said, but the Dark ONE say's at one point that he cannot ressurect Rahvin. If you remember,  &quot;...EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.&quot; And his voice was filled with a terrible anger etc.<br />    I think he was talking to Demandred in book 5 or six<br />Bye. <br />Ishy36


created: 2002-11-20 17:44:13
subject: <b>The art of destruction...</b>
body:
There are some few problems with this theory. First of all, if Rand BF:s Lanfear, so she never could make the bore. 3000 years of history erased in one blow. That might cause the wheel of time to collapse, destroying the world. <br /><br />And if the wheel would survive, there's another problem. According to our beloved philosopher Ishamael the struggle between DO and the dragon is an eternal struggle. So if Lanfear never made the bore, someone else is more or less bound to do it, at a time when LTT is still alive. The greater events will still happen, maybe with some lesser changes, but still the same outcome. Except that the DO may actually win over LTT.<br /><br />So Rand has to be a complete nutbrain to even consider BF Lanfear back to egg-age.<br /><br />And to BF the DO, the creators counterpart...That if anything would destroy the wheel. If there was possible to kill DO, wouldn't the creator have done that from the beginning, instead of just locking him up?<br /><br />Personally, I think that &quot;clearing the rubble before you can build&quot; means that Rand has to destroy the seal, and then create a new one. Lock up the DO again, lock him up good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hopelessly fighting the devil futility<br />Feeling the monster climb deeper inside of me<br />Feeling him gnawing my heart away hungrily<br />I'll never lose this pain<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/20659.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-03 09:07:02
subject: <b>Won't Work</b>
body:
Jordan said that the amount of Balefire required would destroy the world.<br /><br />The DO is subject to time - he says something to that effect when he speaks to someone (books not to hand, so can't quote exactly).


created: 2003-01-12 18:06:35
subject: <b>Balefiring the Dark One is impossible</b>
body:
Ok. You cannot Balefire The Dark One. He is a seperate entity, like the Creator. He is required for a balance of good and evil. After all, The Dark One controls the dead, yes? If He was killed off, then no-one would die, leading to all sorts of other problems, like overpopulation (Inconsequential, really) If he is kept in His prison, then he cannot wreck havok apon the world, allowing the Age of Legends to return eventually, restarting the whole cycle. Balefiring Him would lead to all sorts of paradoxes, and plus, the story makes it clear that this has all happened before. Not just once, with Lews Therin, but many times. The Dark One (Or Ishmael) tells Rand that he has met Rand many times under many different faces. Are we all forgetting the very beginning of every book? &quot;The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgetten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.&quot; Therefore, this sort of thing must happen on um quite a regular basis (every 4 Ages or so) Therefor, you cannot balefire the Dark One. (It had already probably be tried anyway.)


created: 2004-01-27 18:38:25
subject: <b>balefire the other one</b>
body:
hey, rand could just have someone else balefire the DO, and if everything is all crazy and havoc rules, balefire the one who balefired the DO!!!!!!!!!! that way, everything would be back to normal havoc, there you go!!


created: 2004-04-12 10:59:25
subject: <b>All that support balefire is WRONG</b>
body:
From a question asked by some guy to RJ:<br /><br />Could Ran win TG by balefiring the Dark One?<br /><br />RJ replies: No. The amount of balefire needed would destroyed the world.<br /><br />Not exactly, but there you go. Look for it, it's in one of the interviews


created: 2005-04-01 02:06:47
subject: <b>Way too much Power</b>
body:
Couple of things - the Dark One is a force of evil and destruction opposed to the Creator who is a force of good and creation. Nowhere does it actually say or even imply that the Dark One has a physical body that COULD be balefired. Kind of hard to balefire a non corporeal being. How do you balefire God or the Devil? Where are they? The Dark One reaches through the Bore to touch the world...but does anyone truly imagine there's a huge black hand picking things up and messing things around? Sounds like the computer game &quot;Black &amp; White&quot;!!!<br />The Bore is a hole in the pattern. If you balefire the Bore, you're actually just balefiring the pattern, therefore making the Bore even larger.<br />And even if you could balefire the Dark One the results would be catastrophic. It's mentioned (I think by Moraine?) that during the War of Power whole cities were destroyed by balefire and the consequences where dire - every action undertaken by every citizen undone. Moraine said the Pattern started to unravel!! that's why both sides agreed not to use bale fire anymore.<br />Imagine what would happen if the Dark One's actions of the past 3000 years were reversed? He's been an integral part of the world. He's had an impact on every single person in the world since the breaking so He's bent every single thread in the pattern. Yank him out and the whole thing would fall apart!!! Not only would it destroy the world, it would destroy the pattern and therefore destroy history! And what effect would it have on Telaranrhiod and the parallell worlds of the Portal stones?<br />The idea clearly expressed at every point is that balefire is bad and erasing even one person is dangerous. Erasing the most influential being in the world?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 18:16:30
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I strongly disagree. It seems much to far fetched for me. Also that would be a horrible ending in my mind. If that happened I would lose all faith in literature. I just can't see this happening.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-15 15:32:32
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
No wya that is the way it ends. There could however be an interesting scene where rand suddenly has the idea to balefire the DO and someone (prefferably cadsuane) has to nock some sense into him using the arguments already discussed here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-06 15:14:22
subject: <b>ooook....</b>
body:
This is an interesting take. I definently would say it has been done before but if you say you thought of it I'll believe you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hae rettii kippo fettei jii alno hae ettmae joi reddoj.<br />The dragon shall ride again on the winds of time.<br /><br />Mess with me you mess with all seven Warders.<br /><br />Kylarii of the Rebel Aes Sedai<br />Daughter of the Ravens.<br />Sister to the Wolf.<br /><br />DOWN WITH ELAIDA</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-15 18:23:02
subject: <b>nahh</b>
body:
its definetly a possibility but if lanfears opening of the bore was undone, wouldnt all of the races on Randland dissolve, since they are all there because of the war of power.<br /><br />for example the aiel would still be Da'Shain or whatever they were called back then<br /><br />and then without the Aiel, many events wouldnt occur, which would lead to other events<br /><br />and the whole pattern would be torn apart.<br /><br />i've always wondered why Rand didnt just use balefire on Semirhage after she removed his hand, he couldve had it back and gotten rid of her for good


created: 2009-07-14 19:02:06
subject: <b>about that...</b>
body:
RJ said that the amount of balefire needed to destroy the Dark One would also destroy the world.  The Lanfear idea has more merit, but it doesn't quite feel right.


created: 2001-12-16 15:08:11
subject: <b>YAY!</b>
body:
Finnaly a Demandred theroy for the normal, intellegent wotmaniac.  Of course, this leads us to question the other four armies....What about the message from Caheien?  I've gotta check...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 15:09:06
subject: <b>problems with touching and the mask of mirrors</b>
body:
trough out your therory you have mentioned the mask of mirrors and its limitaions involving tough but I think i've found a way for someone who is experienced with channeling the one power to get around it.  We know it is fairly simple to harden air so, someone sklilled in weaving sadin might be able to create a sheel of air around them to solve the contact problems.  this could also be used as a kind of armor.


created: 2001-12-16 15:13:18
subject: <b>It is highly possible.</b>
body:
And more possible than any other theory I've read concerning this.<br />Good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 17:13:51
subject: <b>Maybe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I have a problem imagening Demandred doing Halwin Norry work as a clerc. being burried in books and figures all day.<br />Beside even when Rand was in Caemlyn he didn't confide with Norry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 17:14:01
subject: <b>Like WOW!!</b>
body:
This is one of the best theories that i've read in a long time.  I agree completly and wholeheartedly.  Not only did all the points made make sense there is one other thing i think should be thrown in.  When in all the other books did Rand ever talk to some meaningless official like halwin norry.  never that's right.  and it's not like someone is in a scene for no reason in a book.  RJ put him in for a reason and other then this thoery i see no reason why.  i it my firm belief that halwin norry is demandred.


created: 2001-12-16 19:28:33
subject: <b>Norrydred?</b>
body:
Norry has always been a suspicious character.  But I don't know.  I think he appeared too fast after Rahvin's death to be Demandred.  I don't think that Demandred would have worked under Rahvin's direction.  And finding out enough information to replace the real Norry would take too much time, assumming Demandred finds out what is happening that quickly.<br /><br />I like the reasoning about Demandred's main purpose is to watch over Rand while he is in Caemlyn.  Rhuidean is also a possibility.  Demandred once appeared in T'A'R in Caemlyn where he had enough information to guess who Elayne was there without recognizing her.  (That alone may rule out Weiramon- if he ever were a viable candidate.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 19:38:11
subject: <b>Norry's ink stain</b>
body:
This theory is certainly plausible.  The comment about how Elayne acknowleges that a queen and her economy could be brought to its knees could definitely be considered potential foreshadowing.  The comment that I found interesting though was about the ink stain on his clothes.  Elayne thinks something about how it was odd to see it on a man who is in a sense the Head of his department.  I think it could just have been part of the illusion created by Demandred.  He thinks a man such as Norry should have an ink stain on him, so voila he weaves it into the disguise.  Some very interesting points in this theory...<br /><br />In addition, I do seem to recall Demandred making an appearance in the Camelyn throne room in Tel'ah. when Elayne was there talking to herself.  Anyone know in which book this was?  Certainly worth the re-read.  <br />Finally, is it a fact that RJ could be using the chapter icons to give hints about who's who?  Are there any other instances of this with Aes Sedai or the Forsaken?


created: 2001-12-16 20:52:29
subject: <b>A few responses</b>
body:
Udi, Halwin Norry is not just a &quot;clerk&quot;.  He advises the throne on matters of state.  He is in charge of the treasury and the hiring for the government of Andor is his responsibility.  These were the traditional duties of a Prime Minister.  Norry is the de facto prime Minister of Andor.  Norry's title is &quot;First Clerk&quot;.  Someone else in the original thread mentioned that a translation of &quot;Prime Minister&quot; from the its original language to English is &quot;First Servant&quot;.  Aes Sedai translated is &quot;Servant of All&quot;, yet are they your run of the mill servants?<br /><br />RabidWombat, most people who knew Norry fled the palace when Rand took it from Rahvin.  Demandred would not have to fool many people.  Reene Harfor did not flee and she apparantly dislikes Norry for a as of yet unknown reason.  I mentioned it as something to watch in book 10.<br /><br />daidaishar, judging from what happened when Alviarin touched Mesaana, weaving Air into an armor does not solve the problem.  The toucher sees through the Mask in addition to feeling what is underneath.  LOC describes Taim as about half a foot shorter than Demandred.  A Mask is needed to cover this up, but a touch will reveal it to be an illusion.  Rand touched Taim in LOC to put the dragon pins on him and he did not notice anything out of the ordinary.<br /><br />Page citations for all the info I mentioned from the books are included in the original thread plus a lot of things not included in the wotmania post. <br /><br />thanks for the comments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />mahiro


created: 2001-12-16 23:00:40
subject: <b>A problem and an Alternate</b>
body:
One problem with Hadwin Norry (well, two)<br /><br />1. He's been around for awhile. For Morgase, etc.  While we know Mirrors of Mist can disguise someone, we haven't yet established if it can impersonate anyone.<br /><br />2. Rahvin was there.  We've already considered that there hasn't been duplication anywhere else of Forsaken assignments. Again, not proven, but all the support is for it.  And Rahvin had Caemlyn.<br /><br />Here's an alterantive....I was looking over some of the books (I finally dragged them out! whee)<br /><br />Lord Toram.<br />A) He was using proxies (Caraline and Darlin and even Fain)<br />B) He was in the South, where he was thought to be<br />C) He physically matched the expectations we have of Demandred<br />D) He certainly matched his temperment!<br />E) He was a blademaster...seemingly better than Rand, which would make sense if Rand hasn't fully matched LTT.<br />F) Something I haven't double-checked, but it SEEMS that bubbles of evil seem to be concentrated around Forsaken.  I'm tired and the only other one I can think of previous is in the Aiel Waste...also Tear, I think, but that had either Belal recently or Sammael if he was near.  That would support the presence of a Forsaken in the camp (though this could apply to Fain as well, but I don't think so).<br />G) His hatred was far too palpable<br />E) He is unaccounted for.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-16 23:19:18
subject: <b>Lord Toram Riatin is Dead!</b>
body:
He was killed by Lan (in Far Madding!).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 23:20:08
subject: <b>.......wow</b>
body:
This theory was incredibly in depth and detailed as well as making a lot of sense. Is it possible that at long last someone has found the right answer?!?! GREAT!!!!! Besides the title Normandred just strikes me as incredibly comical<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Can you feel the eyes in the dark? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Wherever I go, there I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All shall bow for I am the Chocobo King!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&quot;A life without hope is no more than a living death&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 23:57:05
subject: <b>No Way!!</b>
body:
Norry is way to well known for one of the Forsaken to impersonate.  In no other instance does a Forsaken impersonate a well known individual.  <br /><br />While they were placing themselves in power in the earlier books of the series, the Forsaken were always described as having very recently come to power.  This was to cover the fact that no one could impersonate a well known figure well enough to fool everyone.<br /><br />Also, there have been many references to the fact that the whole economy of Andor would disintegrate without Norry.  Wouldn't Chaos be served by bringing a nation to it's knees?  If Dem was going to serve the DO and increase chaos, he'd simply kill the one man who holds together the nation.<br /><br />BTW, Norry is more like Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, than the PM.  <br /><br />My $0.02.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 00:15:54
subject: <b>a few responses</b>
body:
Vashti and AOBtD, I believe Norry was captured and drained of info by Semirhage sometime after Rand took Caemlyn.  Remember, almost all who knew him fled the palace.  The only one who did not is Reene Harfor and I already mentioned that she does not like Norry for a as of yet unknown reason.  Norry hired scores of new people.  They wouldn't know him at all, so they would not know any mistakes that Demandred would make attempting to impersonate Norry.<br /><br />Demandred masquerading as Norry would also provide a reasonable explanation for why he was in the palace reflection in LOC when he stumbled onto Elayne.  Norry would know the palace like the back of his hand.  Demandred would not.  He can't wander around the palace and get lost - that would be extremely suspicious.  So then, what better place to memorize the floorplan of the palace than ter'aran'rhoid?<br /><br />Someone else asked this very question a few months ago.  A fuller explanation is on wheeloftime.com complete with page citations.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />AOBtD, I still think Prime Minister is more suitable.  Greenspan doesn't advise the President on matters of State - things like foreign policy, education, domestic resources, military affairs, or perform hiring for the entire government.  Norry does advise Elayne in these areas.<br /><br />thanks for the discussion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />mahiro


created: 2001-12-17 01:18:56
subject: <b>I find it kind of funny...</b>
body:
Has anybody else noticed that now that the Taimendred theory has been completely ripped apart, everyvody is falling over each other letting everybody else know that they never, EVER actually thought that Taim was Demandred in disguise? Apparently, the Taimendred theory actually had approximately three adherents even at its height.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 02:21:28
subject: <b>Maybe...but</b>
body:
Very interesting. It seems that with the demise of the &quot;popular&quot; theories, we are looking for people in the right place, that are mentioned at times, and who have the ability to affect issues by their &quot;normal&quot; exercise of power.<br /><br />This guy? Maybe, but it duplicates DO effort. He already had a Forsaken in place until Rand came to call.<br /><br />Logic suggests that the Forsaken are distributed around the Westlands. If Dem moved to Caemlyn, where was he before, and what happens in the power vacuum created by his move.<br /><br />RJ, for all his faults, knows he cannot ride roughshod over bookwriting 101. No deus ex machina allowed. No butlers appearing in the last chapter of the last book, with dripping knife, saying &quot;I am Dem. I was in Mayenne all the time!&quot;<br /><br />No. I do not agree with this suggestion, but I do agree with the methodology. Find the people in the places to guide the actions of a group or nation. Then read to see if they fit the profile.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/7289.gif" /> <font color="3399FF"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Druid</font></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/7289.gif" /><br /><font face="Comic Sans MS">The Old Man of Oz</font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><font face="Comic Sans MS"> Object of Desire (retired) </font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><font face="Comic Sans MS"><b> The People's Front For Wongy Jnr. </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I blame Alric&quot;</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.iscv.org.au/images/iscv1.jpg" target="_blank">That's my little puppy!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 02:56:37
subject: <b>Actually, when you think about it...</b>
body:
Let's think a moment on this one...<br /><br />Let's say that Demandred was Norry back before Rand killed Rahvin.  It sure seems convenient for Rahvin to have a fellow Chosen helping him to get a nation under his control.  Not to mention as the head clerk.  Problem:  Rahvin has no clue where Demandred is.  Or at least not at the beginning of The Fires of Heaven (prologue).<br /><br />Now, what advantage would their be for Demandred being at the palace while Rahvin is there?  As Norry, the head clerk, Demandred could be very subtle while putting in Rahvin's orders, instead putting in a version of them.  A version that benefits him more.  Or not.  <br /><br />While it is a possibility that the DO had Demandred watching Rahvin, I doubt it.  I say this because Rahvin, according to the DO, served him well.<br /><br />How about this, however?  Demandred comes and reveals himself to Rahvin sometime after the meeting between Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammael, and Graendal (again, prologue of The Fires of Heaven).  They set up their own sub-plan or whatever.  This could work to the benefit of both.<br /><br />However, I don't believe it happened this way.  Demandred sure knows about Rahvin's death awfully soon.  He tells the DO in the Prologue of Lord of Chaos that Rahvin died the day before.  Now, if Demandred wasn't in the palace, how could he have found out so soon?  Among the Chosen, the only one we know saw this happen was Moghedien, but she was currently being held Nynaeve's prisoner at this point.  <br /><br />Perhaps one of the other Forsaken saw this happen and told him, but it doesn't seem likely that they would volunteer too much info.  They rarely do.<br /><br />I personally think Rahvin was oblivious to Demandred being there, But he was there.  This gave him many benefits. For one thing, he would be close to Rahvin and know some of his plans.  He could help and aid Rahvin when it worked towards Demandred's goals, or when they didn't, he could slyly turn things around with a simple 'misunderstood' or 'miscommunicated' order to some other servant.  <br /><br />I think Miharo (or however you spell your name, sorry) hit the nail on the head.  I can see that if this is true, how RJ has been laughing his (_|_) off at us and Taimandred, which I was very much riding the fence at.  <br /><br />(This in response to teh Taimandred comment of earlier)...I really didn't think it was him after reading the last chapter of Winter's Heart, but I didn't even consider it until I read somebody's theory saying so.  They made a good argument.  But that last chapter of Winter's Heart was very convincing. I always came back to that and concluded that Taim wasn't Demandred.  Therefore I was never a Taimandred supporter, but I heavily considered the theory, as I do all theories that I read.  I consider them as long as they have merit, or until they are disproved.<br /><br />Anyway, stew on that.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2001-12-17 06:02:01
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
::tries to think of a way to knock the theory::<br /><br />Damn! I can't.<br /><br />This is excellent, even the slight doubts can easily be gotten round, as Logain said above. Hell, if he just happened to find out Rahvin died that soon after his death, he could have installed himself in the palace afterwards. Perhaps he wasn't assigned to anywhere exactly beforehand, I don't think Lanfear and Asmodeon had been specifically assigned anywhere, not as they went all that way through the Waste. Plus in the past we've heard Graendal consider leaving Arad Doman and setting up elsewhere, so it appears not all the Forsaken were given specific orders other then to create chaos.<br /><br />Whoever above made the point that there doesn't appear to be any reason to give Norry any part, let alone him cropping up so many times, well done! On top of the theory, that pretty much confirms it for me.


created: 2001-12-17 10:50:22
subject: <b>Consistency</b>
body:
The primary flaw in this theory, which we can't establish how strong it is, is that we have no evidence that Mirrors of Mist can be used to successfully impersonate another known individual.<br /><br />Perhaps it can, but...<br /><br />If it can, than we have another host of people to think about.<br /><br />We have Gawyn, who has the skill, has the cover and has the dramatic personality shift.<br /><br />We have Masema.<br /><br />We have Aram.<br /><br />We even have Logain, but at least we have strong, direct indication that he's not.<br /><br />We have a bunch of other characters who we haven't seen in awhile and can't account for yet (Rhuarc, Tam, Bael, et al).<br /><br />Your strongest evidence, that he may be able to impersonate another known individual, also is your weak link, because allowing for that means we have to broadly widen to a lot of other, more reasonable possibilities (Gawyn and Masema being the best).<br /><br />Btw, one -very- interesting character who hasn't been looked at yet (not as Demandred, though), is Lady Shiane, Daved Hanlon's current supervisor.  Hanlon also is interesting....  Remember how he hurled his sword &quot;like in a gleeman's tale&quot; in the set-up rescue of Elayne?  If it was set-up, than there very well could've been a channeler nearby.


created: 2001-12-17 10:55:53
subject: <b>Perhaps this soles Asmodean's killer argument</b>
body:
if demandred is norry, then it also puts him in a position to have killed asmodean after rand took caemlyn from rahvin.


created: 2001-12-17 11:01:55
subject: <b>excellent!</b>
body:
Now here's a theory I can buy.  I never thought that Taim was Demandred but I was knocking my head on the side of the wall trying to figure out who.  Anyway, good one!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 11:08:49
subject: <b>Okay...</b>
body:
Is there not a point when Elayne had just returned to Caemlyn, and was having trouble begining the assertion of her right to the throne, that Norry helped her by giving her a small clue on how to financially establish herself, therefore giving her a leg up on claiming The Lion Throne?  Why would Demandred do such a thing?  It's hardly creating chaos/etc.  And isn't there another point in time in which Graendal states, &quot;That events to the south have Demandred's mark.&quot;(something to that effect) I vaguely remember someone else stating that he had been causing &quot;chaos&quot; (a task given to him by th DO, I think).  This fact would make it difficult for it to be Norry, given the fact that Caemlyn would require <b>all</b> of the First Clerk's attention, and Norry <i>apparently</i> doesn't seem to be causing disorder in the palace, or Caemlyn itself. (<b>yet</b>)  I can't say that he won't be, or hasn't been, and that has yet to be revealed.  I really enjoyed this theory.  Your pro-Norry arguments and evidence are great...very easy to agree with!  I loved the chapter icon idea as far as looking for Demandred. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 13:23:43
subject: <b>I don't know</b>
body:
It still just does not sit right for me.  C'mon, one of the most powerful channelers in the whole world is acting clerk for Andor?  I really can't picture Dem pouring over the books to get every last detail down perfectly.  Norry, according to his description, does.  He even knows how many onions were sold between noon and 1:30.  Whos knows, maybe Dem found a copy of MS Excel on a laptop in a Stasis box, and is using it to run Andor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It does not fit his character, or his motives though.  Norry brings ORDER to Andor, not CHAOS.  Dem is supposed to bring Chaos.<br /><br />It was a good idea though, and I did like the logic.<br /><br />PS. I don't see Tony Blair going over the numbers in quite the same depth as Greenspan would (although, as a typical Amerrican, I don't really follow the politics of other countries), but neither would Greenspan advise on military matters.  Maybe a mix of the 2.<br /><br />I'm up to $0.04 now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 14:13:23
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
wouldn't have to go through all the figures himself, if he is impersonating Norry then it's quite likely that the guy could have been kept alive to do the job Demandred doesn't want to do. If Norry didn't want to, he could be compulsed.<br /><br />Basically, RJ has already given us one false lead for Demandred in Taim, I highly doubt he's going to give another one that shares so many characteristics with the Forsaken.<br /><br />I've wondered this before, but does the Mirror of Mists actually require the whole body to be changed? I mean, why would it, why not just the head? It coudl well be Demandred's body, I don't think he need worry about Rand recognising that (hell, he probably doesn't even know there's the small chance Rand would recognise him normally).<br /><br />I see no reason why the Mirror of Mists couldn't be used to impersonate someone else. What evidence have we that it couldn't?


created: 2001-12-17 15:36:09
subject: <b>What evidence....</b>
body:
...we have to support that Mirror of Mists doesn't...<br /><br />Save that it never has been shown to be used that way. Ever. <br /><br />This entire theory hinges upon accepting that, while we are supposed to have all the information needed, we have to accept something that has never been demonstrated as being done.  <br /><br />Don't forget; Elayne KNEW Norry -before- she ever met Rand. She certainly isn't alerted to any apparent discrepancies.  In fact, she seems quite comfortable with him.  And she probably knew him, or about him, fairly well.<br /><br />So now we get back to he's tall and independent, as well as a couple of chapter anomalies.  There are far, far too many other characters who fit that description, with the further support of A) demonstrated military prowess, B) a hateful, jealous demeanor, C) causing Chaos, NOT order, D) Being in the South (Andor is certainly Central, and conceivably northern, but definitely NOT in the South) and/or E) Not duplicating another Forsaken's efforts. <br /><br />Plus, again, if you open up the argument for the Mirror of Mists being able to fully impersonate another individual's appearance, then now you have to consider all the short, people, fat people, indeterminate, people, etc., which weakens the argument further.  Norry's height now becomes completely irrelevant.<br /><br />One by one, we can peel away the things that make this theory seemingly strong.  We can either negate them directly, or render them as to be meaningless to the argument (i.e., he can look like Norry, but that means he can look like anyone. Back to Square One). <br /><br />It was a decent try, but if you think about it for just a little, there's nothing to support it save some minor coincidence and a complete dependence on something that's never been exhibited. Sorry.


created: 2001-12-18 01:22:18
subject: <b>Questions and thoughts...</b>
body:
First of all, where do we learn that the Mirror of Mists dissapates when the person using it is touched?  I didn't catch it the first time I read through the books...if anybody has a reference, hooketh me up!<br /><br />And how do we know that Demandred (any of the Forsaken, really) is not using a different weave from the Mirror of Mists, such as a Disguise weave?  I don't believe the RPG can be a totally accurate source (lord knows at the typo's I've found), but Mirror of Mists and Disguise are two different weaves, so could it be a possibility in this, two?<br /><br />About Chaos and Order...<br />   I don't know if anybody's noticed, but Caemlyn sure isn't the most orderly place in the world right now.  The whole city has been in the throws of rebellion, only the Aiel and Saldaeana keeping the flood gates from breaking open (and they weren't helping a whole lot).  Now they are gone, and Elayne is desperately trying to get things back to order.  So desperate that she's got Birgitte trying to whip the city into order (coincidentally putting Elayne in greater danger...David hanlon).  Whatever happened to Background checks, anyhow?<br /><br />Good ol' Norrydred could be helping spread this chaos directly through his work and indirectly through his influences.<br /><br />About Elayne and knowing Norry...<br /><br />This does seem to be a problem to me.  However, how well did she know him before?  Did she sit in his lap and tug on his mustache?  I doubt it.  I doubt they've been very open with each other.  How much can you get to know someone by getting reports read to you?<br /><br />Now, this could be totally wrong, but I seem to remember something to this effect...Basically, I'll make it a question:  Did Demandred not desire Ilyena?  From somewhere in the debts of my mind stuck between a Dm chord and the football game I just watched, it seems like I remember something talking about Demandred being jealous of Lews Therin of everything, including Ilyena.  This could be wrong, I don't know.  Anybody who knows correctly please tell me and give me the reference if there is one...<br /><br />Back to my point, however.  IF this is true, wouldn't it make sense that Demandred would go after Rand's woman again.  I know there's three, but Elayne has more potential than the other two for chaos.  She's rightful queen to a nation, she's hot, and she's going to be a stout Aes Sedai.  <br /><br />Side note relating...take Elayne's name, Elayne, and change one e to an i.  Now, rearrange and what do you get?  Ilyena.  Not quite a theory, but coincidence (same color hair, too)?  Good ol' D could go for that.<br /><br />As for the comment about the Mask of Mirrors being the weak link, making it possible for Demandred to be anybody...well, it has always been possible for any of the Forsaken to have been anybody!  Bela could be Graendal!  Stepper could be Demandred (sorry, I got a horse thing going on now).  It's always ben like this.  I had no idea that Justin Natael was Asmodean until I saw the words on the page...same thing with most of the forsaken thus far.<br /><br />To me, I still believe Demandred could be anyone.  Taim was interesting, as was Weiramon (for the 10 minutes I thought about it, anyhow), but neither proved too strong.  This, to me, seems to be the strongest theory about his identity yet.  <br /><br />Oh, and the &quot;events to the south&quot; thing was said by Sammael to Graendal.  That can be explained with a simple word:  proxies.  Maesma could be a proxy of Demandred, as could Valda (I thought about him being Demandred for a while, but has he ever even seen Rand?  Thought not).  A friend also pointed out the David Hanlon thing, that they thought maybe he was Demandred.  I can see that, but I see Norry more.<br /><br />Anyway, great theory, and I can't believe me and Three in a Boat agree on a theory.  *laughing my (_|_) off*  Could this be a first?  Just playin'<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' on that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-18 04:53:10
subject: <b>a few comments</b>
body:
<blockquote> Now, look at what we know of Demandred's location. In Winter's Heart (ch. 13, p. 314), we find out that Demandred and Osan'gar were both supposed to be watching Rand. Now this is a bit strange. Why two rather than one? They were not likely to be discovered. One of them alone would not lie to the Dark One. Spying on him could have been done by Kisman or Torval and in any event Rand was telling people things only on a need to know basis. From Winter's Heart, the reason appears to be to keep tabs on him at all times. This motive still leaves the question why two rather than one? </blockquote><br /><br />The reason is that they weren't working together. In fact, osan'gar was kept hidden from the others for a while, at least. Shaidar Haran said to the *Gars intheir first scene, &quot;Shaidar Haran says to the 'gars: &quot;None but I and the Great Lord know you live.&quot; Also, Semirhage says in her PoV, when she was interrogating Cabriana Mercandes for the Aran'gar project: &quot;neither [Mesaana nor Demandred] would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here.&quot;<br /><br />So it is possible that Osan'gar and Demandred started out in the same area (e.g. Asha'man).<br />~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><blockquote>Vashti and AOBtD, I believe Norry was captured and drained of info by Semirhage sometime after Rand took Caemlyn. Remember, almost all who knew him fled the palace. The only one who did not is Reene Harfor and I already mentioned that she does not like Norry for a as of yet unknown reason. Norry hired scores of new people. They wouldn't know him at all, so they would not know any mistakes that Demandred would make attempting to impersonate Norry.</blockquote><br />This couldn't have happened. From Demandred's PoV in book 9, &quot;Even so, he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present. Their alliance was delicate - a simple agreement that they would not turn on one another until the others had been eliminated&quot;.<br /><br />So, Demandred couldn't have got very good intel on Norry. Compulsion is all good and well, but it doesn't have a patch on Semirhage's abilities. Norry is a very well-known figure. There are hundreds of servants, soldiers, nobles, merchants, that would come into contact with him. It is impossible that Demandred could speak in the same way (i don't mean voice but sentence structure), or have the same hand gestures and other body language. For example, &quot;He blinked at her, and she tried not to sigh. She thought he might be more than a little deaf, from the way he tilted his head this way and that as if to catch sound better.&quot;<br />~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><br />Also, Normandred doesn't explain the following quote from Mesaana's PoV at the beginning of book 6: <br /><blockquote>&quot;You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. ... <br />&quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule. His words, exact.&quot; ... <br />Then he told them the rest. Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether from excitement or fear. It could work; <b>it could hand them everything.</b> But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler. </blockquote><br /><br />Norry doesn't hand them much. He is only one advisor to Rand. He doesn't influence Rand's military decisions. Taim, on the other hard, hands them an unlimited supply of madmen (increases chaos) and dreadlords, not to mention control of the most powerful military orginisation on the planet. That could qualify as 'everything'. Norry, though? Caemlyn? Maybe. Andor? Possibly. Everything? Noper.<br />~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><br />Norry's attitude to Rand doesn't really satisfy Demandred. For example in book 6 when Norry is reading the reports, and Rand cuts him off and sends him out, &quot;The man gave no sign of curiosity or hurt at being cut off so abruptly. He merely stopped in midword, bowed with &quot;As the Lord Dragon commands&quot; &quot;. I would expect a bit more of a reaction from Demandred. <br /><br />C.f. Taim in book 6: <blockquote> Taim walked to the block stiffly, and Rand bent to pin the silver sword to the tall collar of his coat ... <br />Taim's face had as much expression as the stone beneath Rand's boots ...<br />Taim's face made stone look soft, what was wrong with the man? ... <br />He was holding the bag of sword pins so tightly it was a wonder none of them stabbed him through the cloth ...<br />Looking at Taim, who was making no effort to hide his disdain ... <br />[Rand] &quot;What has gotten into you? You've had a burr in your breeches ever since I put those badges on you. Is it something to do with them?&quot; <br />The most remarkable transformation came over the man. Taim shook visibly - with rage, Rand would have said, not fear - but when the shaking stopped, he was his old self again. </blockquote><br />~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><br />On the subject of smiling. From Demandred, we have the quotes &quot;Demandred came as close to smiling as he ever did.&quot; and:<br />&quot;The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him.&quot;<br /><br />As far as I am aware, the only reference to the smiling of Norry is the one you provided, <br />&quot;He smiled briefly, a momentary curving of thin lips. For him, that was near to capering.&quot;<br /><br />Surely if RJ wanted to use this aspect of Demandred's character, he would have supplied several mentions of him smiling. And their methods of smiling are different. The quotes from Demandred stress that he doesn't form a full smile, more like twitching.<br /><br />C.f. references to Taim, only in book 6:<br /><blockquote> The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile<br />The corners of his mouth quivered again in that almost smile as he rose<br />Taim's mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile<br />the corners of his mouth twitching for one moment in that almost smile<br />Taim's mouth quirked in that near smile<br />That peculiar almost-smile quirked his lips<br />Taim flashed that half-smile again<br />Taim was looking at him, wearing that almost-smile<br />Taim turned to Rand, that almost-smile on his lips<br />Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him </blockquote><br /><br />To compare with Demandred's twitching, we have a twitching, a quirking, and a quivering, and lots of almost-smiling and half-smiling. <br /><br />Note also that RJ gives a lot of references to Taim's smile, and the wording is in all cases very similar. This means that he keeps a very good track of things. With only one smile from Norry that doesn't fit Demandred's description very well, it is clear that RJ isn't trying to make a connection between them.<br />


created: 2001-12-18 10:44:22
subject: <b>I agree. Sort of.</b>
body:
I don't usually post on this site, but in this case I'm going to make an exception, because Normandred (heh) has been a pet theory of mine for a while, too. I even submitted a theory to this end on another site, although as far as I'm aware it never got posted.<br /><br />Besides all the points that have been mentioned (the half-smile, the excellence of the position for spying, the general tone of superiority, the physical rightness), I should also stress that he rather unnerves Elayne. She thinks, and I can't find the exact quote, that he was looking at her 'like a heron watching a fish', or something along those lines.<br /><br />The case for isn't entirely convincing, though. There's no cast-iron proof, only coincidences and similarities - much like Taimandred, in fact. <br /><br />And we all know how accurate that turned out to be.<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-18 19:17:54
subject: <b>A few more comments...</b>
body:
We have seen what happens when someone using a Mask of Mirrors is touched - Alviarin touched Mesaana in ACOS(?) IIRC.  The Mask partially unraveled for her.  Alviarin saw Mesaana's feet and what color dress she wore.  We also have Rand's POV in WH where he thinks on the flaws of a Mask.  A person touching him would know he is using a Mask.<br /><br />Sure Norry is a significant position.  People know of him, but how many really know him?  There were no newspapers or tv to post pictures of him or hear him speak.  There was no way for the vast majority of people to see his mannerisms, the way he holds himself.  We know for a fact that the vast majority of people who knew him fled the palace.  Who's left?<br /><br />The only ones remaining in Caemlyn who knew Norry to any degree are Reene Harfor and Elayne.  I already mentioned that Reene apparantly doesn't like Norry for a unknown reason.  As for Elayne, she has not seen him for two years.  The last time she saw him, she was 16.  The only real way to know him would be if she spent a lot of time learning how to govern Andor.  If she was learning to govern, she did seem to spend an awful lot of time climbing trees in the palace gardens.<br /><br /><br />mahiro


created: 2001-12-18 20:03:02
subject: <b>My Take</b>
body:
I think this is the best theory on Demandred's identity that we've ever seen. I don't think it proves decisively that Dem. is Norry, but it is better than any of the other ideas currently available. Normandred reigns supreme, but as *theory*, not fact, until conclusive evidence one way or another is found. <br />Kenco:  I think the whole &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; thing was supposed to give the Forsaken everything if Rand turned evil. <br />As for Norry not gaining anything, we've already seen one DF fake an assault on Elayne just to get into her good graces. Demandred would be willing to give a few hints as Norry to get into her good graces. Remember, she's supposed to know how to run a country. If Norry gave bad/illogical advice, he'd get fired at once. If Demandred is Norry, then he'd need to cover for his chaos-creating methods with good suggestions. Moreover, if he insinuates himself into Elayne's court, then he's in an excellent position to create chaos subtly, especially if he pulls Elayne away from Rand. Rand vs. Elayne? That would nearly cripple our hero emotionally. Moreover, Rand would refuse to harm her; if he tried to oppose her, she'd rip him apart with the Power because he'd never lift a finger against her. <br />The whole thing with Elayne's bodyguard makes a LOT of sense in combination with Normandred; it runs parallel to the whole idea. <br />As for Demandred not being in Caemlyn simultaneously with Rahvin: let's look at his comment about two of the other Forsaken (Semi and Mesaana, I think, but I misremember). Demandred says that their alliance was rather tentative &quot;just an agreement not to turn on one another until all others had been eliminated.&quot; If those are the right words, and if you read them the right way, it could easily mean that Dem. HAD turned on the others. He could easily have been trying to undermine Rahvin if that's true. <br />Much has been made of Demandred not recognizing the Asha'man -- not just not recognizing Flinn, but not realizing that a black coat meant channeler. Consider this for a moment. If Demandred is supposed to be watching Rand personally, then there's only one place he could he that's close to Rand and is NOT in contact with the Asha'man: Caemlyn. <br />Someone mentioned the problem of a power vacuum created by Demandred leaving his work in the south.  As I recall, he works through proxies by choice.  Masema fits Dem.'s mark well (wild, difficult to control = gamble, causing chaos), but it could easily be through a proxy. Proxies and Travelling negate the power vacuum problem. Moreover, if Dem. was ordered to Caemlyn in a hurry (to replace Rahvin, perhaps, or watch Rand there one Osan'gar was kept out of Caemlyn) then he might not have had the time to assemble his proxy screen like he'd like to. As the gambler, he'd assume someone's identity to gain quick, easy access to Rand's semi-inner circle, hoping that no one noticed the difference. <br />The whole idea makes sense.  It's not yet proof, but a lot of things work.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Sorry this was so long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 20:11:27
subject: <b>Improbable doesn't imply fact</b>
body:
Look, if we take all the highly improbable things, things that have not been previously demonstrated or shown possible, and allow for them all, THEN the theory might stand.  But even one of those highly improbable things falls flat, then the whole thing unravels. <br /><br />And now to say that one of the highest administrators in a large kingdom is a character known only by 2 people?  That's absurd.  No, don't argue; it's absurd.  If it IS true, than Jordan has made a pathetic and inconsistent lapse. <br /><br />the half-smile?  Someone just demonstrated that Taim had a FAR more convincing case.<br /><br />For every one of the 'for' points, there's been cold, hard evidence to deny them.  And NONE of the 'for' points have any cold, hard evidence FOR them, and they rely on a stretching of the 'rules' that Jordan has written by for nine books.  Or, in some cases, simply making up a rule because Jordan hasn't gotten around to saying it can't be done. <br /><br />Taim is a far, far better candidate than Norry, for the same reasons Norry is cited as one, and we've already rejected him.  <br /><br />Norry is:<br />A) in the wrong place, <br />B) duplicating the effort of another Forsaken, which we've never seen<br />C) Using a power that's never been seen (Oh, by the way...if he's using Mirrors of Mist around Rand, disguised as Norry, wouldn't Rand sense him holding Saidin?)<br />D) Does not instill a reaction in the slightest from LTT, who has demonstrated he can sense his enemies through disguises, and Demandred is his most prominent one.<br />E) NOT creating chaos...While Caemlyn may be in chaos, it is predictable chaos that was already caused by Rahvin.  In fact, his efforts are helping to hold it together.<br />D) Never demonstrated any degree of competency in anything regarding power.  All other Forsaken have, including Semirhage.<br />E) Would've not only had to duplicate the appearance of Norry, but also his mannerisms, habits, knowledge of commonly known things, accounting and financial issues (Dem. was a general, not a book-keeper) -- and do it all in a hurry, and have no one catch on. <br /><br />All you have to go on for this theory is that he once twitched a half-smile and he's not keen on sucking up and Renee Harfor doesn't like him. <br /><br />Do you know how many humorless characters who have someone who doesn't like them there are in the book?  I can think of a good twenty right off the top of my head who all would be better candidates.<br /><br />Oh, by the way, wasn't Flinn in Caemlyn for awhile? He'd have seen Norry, in all probablity (certainly as probable as any of the 'for' points), and Flinn was the one who attacked Demandred in the forest.  <br /><br />Every single one of your points takes plausibility to its breaking point, and ignores other things that have been standards, and other candidates that fit even YOUR criteria better.  <br /><br />Norry has as much chance of being Demandred as Bela does.  Taim beats Norry as a candidate on every single account, and we all know how THAT fits.


created: 2001-12-18 20:44:09
subject: <b>Just thought of something</b>
body:
I was about to disagree with this when I thought of something. In the end of LoC, we have a conversation in which the DO is talking to Demandred, and Demandred says &quot;Have I not done well?&quot; or something like that, so I was wondering what happened in Caemlyn in that book, when I remembered the attack of the fake Aiel on Demira Sedai (the Brown Sister from the Salidar embassy). If you think about it, that was what caused the entire Dumai's Wells fiasco. The attack on Demira, believed by the Salidar AS to have come from Rand, was what caused Rand to go to Cairhien and the Tower embassy, leading to his capture and everything that followed. Taimandred supporters used the comment at the end of LoC to mean that Taim's Asha'man had spread chaos, but if Demandred-as-Norry had been responsible for the attack on Demira, then he could be claiming credit for starting the entire battle. <br />Nice theory, and I think I might actually agree with it - not sure, though.<br />If anyone understood what I was trying to get at with the Demira thing, feel free to explain because I know that was probably quite incoherent...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 21:49:10
subject: <b>Did I just see Taimandred again?</b>
body:
Now, I can see bringing up Taimandred to show the faults of teh theory, but Kenco, it seemed to me that you were presenting a theory.  <br /><br />Vashti, I respect your thoughts and comments.  I enjoy your preceptions and open-mindedness often, but on this, I must disagree.  All theories are based on things that can be disputed one way or the other.  The propieter of their argument sees the points as cold, hard evidence against.  <br /><br />I don't see ANY hard evidence against Norry.  However, I don't see ANY hard evidence for Norry.  I do see, however, a lot of circumstantial evidence.  That's what every theory about who Demandred is has used, Circumstantial evidence.<br /><br />I personally have decided to ride the fence on this one -I believe it could be true and see the reasons and benefits of it.  But I also saw the benefits of Taimandred.  And Weiramandred.  Etc.  <br /><br />Here's what I think:  Demandred is somebody that we're not gonna figure out.  He may be no where close to Rand, but instead uses his proxies (Taim perhaps, Maesma maybe, etc) to observe Rand's doings.  This could explain the comment made in Winter's Heart (&quot;You were supposed to be watchign him, Osan'gar and Demandred&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Please let the book come out in June like Amazon says so we'll know (if RJ reveals it)!!  I bet instead we will be debating this untill next christmas (well, the one after this one and next one...'03 is what I'm screamin').  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     may you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2001-12-19 02:23:34
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
Every dingle point you brought up was already discussed in the original thread at wheeloftime.com  I will just provide a summary of those arguments - for the page citations, you will have to read the original thread since it is apparant you have not done so.<br /><br /><br />A)  Actually Norry is in the right place.  Demandred was given his orders to watch Rand in LOC, not WH.  In LOC, Rand spent most of his time in Caemlyn.  In WH, Aran'gar criticised Demandred for letting others try to track down Rand - meaning he was not looking and/or remaining in place.<br />Caemlyn is also where the attack on demira took place.<br /><br />B)  You are quite wrong on this.  We have seen two Forsaken work together to acheive the same goal.  Does, aginor and Balthalmel in TEOTW ring a bell?  How about Be'lal and Ishammael in TDR?  Lanfear and Asmodean initially collaborated as well.  <br /><br />They would not even have to work together.  Moghedien spied on the others, they all spy on each other.  This was stated numerous times.  <br /><br />C)  You are mistaken on how the Mask of Mirrors works.  It operates by a inverted, tied off weave.  There is no constant need to channel to maintain it.  <br /><br />The way you argue this point can be used against you as well.  Demandred has to be using a Mask or don't you think it would have been mentioned at the end of WH that Taim (if he was Dem) was there.  They discussed what happened at the end yet no mention was made of Taim being there.  Flinn certainly got a good enough look at him.<br /><br />D)  LTT rants and raves about everyone.  This includes Flinn, Hopwil, Narishma, and Adley - all of whom are not his enemies.<br /><br />E) what do you think the entire battle was at the end of LOC?  Demandred had a hand in it.  Remember Demira?  Now Rand won't trust an Aes Sedai.  Chaos is increased.  <br /><br />Norry also counseled Elayne against taking over the school in Caemlyn.  &quot;Let the Lord o Chaos Rule&quot;<br /><br />F)  You really expect someone undercover to blow their cover that overtly?  Demandred considers himself the most billiant man of his Age.  Hmmm, the most brilliant man in a severalthousand year period.  What capabilities would you expect such a man to have?  A good memory?  How about a photographic memory?  Wh tells us Norry has a photographic memory.  And we find out that he lied to Elayne.  Hmmm...<br /><br />As you are so fond of pointing out, Demandred is a general.<br />Here's a quote from Mat:  <br />&quot;Mat understood in a manner of speaking.  A man always tried to make whoever was commanding the troops against him believe that he was doing something other than what he was, that he was going where he had no intention of going, and the enemy tried to do the same to him, if the enemy was any good at the craft.&quot;<br /><br />Generals create diversions - that is what Taim is.  Any diversion has to be believable if it is to work.<br /><br />E) this point is the easiest for me to counter.  No one in Caemlyn knows how the true Norry acts like.  Everyone who does (other than the ones I named) is gone.  <br /><br />The palace guards were transfered to Cairhien or retired/released.  tallanvor told this to Morgase in TFOH.  As of WH, the old palace guards have yet to return from Aringil.  <br /><br />The servants and other staff.  Rand's POV in LOC clearly states almost all of them fled the palace and have not returned.<br /><br />Who does that leave, the nobles?  The ones Morgase kept around went south to confront Egwene.  The nobles who initially flocked to Rand were the ones Morgase booted out of the palace when she became Queen.  They wouldn't know Norry.<br /><br />Henre Haslin?  he's out teaching the Asha'man how to use a sword.  Gareth Bryne?  Hes attacking the White Tower.  Galad? Gawyn?  you know the answer.  <br /><br />Sure many people know of Norry.  Some even know him well.  But no one who knows him well enough to pick out any changed mannerisms, etc. has remained in Caemlyn.<br /><br />You keep on forgetting that Demandred is supposed to be the second most brilliant man of his age in addition to being a the best general ever in his view.  For an average man, not recognizing Flinn would be pausible, but not for the self described most brilliant man of his AGE.  I would expect such a man to be a quick study, as a general, he sould know logistics, diversionary tactics, etc.  He should have a good enough memory to recognize Flinn.<br /><br />BTW, Flinn has never been in Caemlyn, so Norry/Demandred has never met him.  You are confused with Hopwil and Adley.  <br />


created: 2001-12-19 12:40:06
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
Rand is definitely not able to sense the TP. And there is no evidence that a MoM cannot be created by the TP, or have I overread anything? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 13:03:30
subject: <b>I like, and dislike this theory...and I'll tell you why.</b>
body:
A.)  Norry has been around during the rule of Morgase, he is known by Elayne in advance (which would hint that he was present even when Elayne was a child or growing up) and he was also present during the occupation of Andor by Rahvin and his men.  Given that we know the tremulous standings between Forsaken (and at times outright mistrust) I find it less then plausible to believe two forsaken were so close to one and other without knowledge of it.  And if they had knowledge of it, I don't think they would have been terribly pleased at the idea.  Open warfare would seem to come to mind in this situation.<br /><br />B.)  Yes, Norry does exhibit many of the characteristics of Demandred, and if we are to assume that the Forsaken in their assumed identities always act, look, perform similarly to how they do, or did in the AOL, then we're forced to look at any and ALL characters who have a prissy cavalier attitude, and resentment for authority.<br /><br />I like the theory though, it does have some very solid observations in it, about access to the royal palaces and the ability to get access to areas Rand would be.  But I'm not sold.  Awesome theory though.<br /><br /><br />On a side note:  Mazrim Taim, affected much like Morgase (by compulsion) has been given commands to command certain DF asha'man against Rand.  (Dashiva could very easily be pulling the strings behind this perhaps.)  I'm not sold on Mazrim Taim being evil...it's TOO obvious a conclussion to draw.  Something is fishy with that whole relationship (Rand and Mazrim), and I can't put my finger on it.  Mazrim Taim under a weave of compulsion or perhaps turned by 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Fades, I can almost see my way clear to accept.  But I lean towards compulsion.  I think Taim has learned all his weaves from a Forsaken.  Some forsaken has him under control, and to facilitate timely reports and meetings, has taught Taim weaves long since lost.  Traveling, etc.  So that Taim could come to him, instead of the Forsaken having to be 'put out' and going to Taim.


created: 2001-12-19 13:53:18
subject: <b>Ha ha!</b>
body:
First of all, I have to agree with CNRedDragon. It's hilarious how everyone talks about how they never believed Taimandred. Admit it, a lot of you DID believe it. I know I did. Taim was the ultimate (and, really, the ONLY) suspect that we had for a long time. He made perfect sense. The only thing that might have made people disbelieve would be that it was a little TOO obvious, but what evidence did we have that RJ was capable of that kind of deception? He hadn't done anything like it before. Fortunately, now we know better. Taimandred is dead, yes, but a lot of us believed it. Admit it.<br /><br />Also, I must say that I really like this theory<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I tried for a long time to discover Demandred's identity, but the best I could come up with was Bashere (and I admit, that was a stretch). But Norry . . . it all makes sense. I think it just might be true. It's the best Demandred theory I've heard yet. Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 18:50:42
subject: <b>Could this be the Missing Link</b>
body:
Could this be the missing Link? Perhaps if it pans out that Demandred was in the Palace while Rand was seizing control, than it may perhaps be Demandred who also killed Asmodean. There are many motives too. Anyway, stew about it.<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-19 20:28:06
subject: <b>...Or Not</b>
body:
Man if I were Mat I would have wagered on all the Taimandred people finding a new standard before too long...but I hope this isn't it.<br /><br />Three big things and a few minor ones<br /><br /> Major Issue One - If &quot;gleaning&quot; info and masking were so easy then why haven't the Forsaken all taken forms near Rand. Rand could wake up one day and find that Rhuarc is actually Dem, Weiramon is Osan'gar, Amys is Mesanna and the wise women are Black Ajah, Min is Sem, we could go on. Rand wouldn't know what hit him. don't any of you find it odd that RJ has yet to show us one instance of a Forsaken trying to be  an established person. Sure they will create &quot;new&quot; people to run around as but none of them try to replace current people. Why? Could it be because, for all intents and purposes, it is impossible?<br /> Wouldn't Halima have more control if she were Cabriana instead of Delana's secretary? Wouldn't Demandred have more control if he were Taim? And wouldn't Semirage have more control if she, the master of torture, could have been Tuon's old truthteller instead of having to kill the old one off and become someone new?<br /> I may be proven dead wrong later but I don't think so. If the option of taking over someone's lift were as easy as these posts seem to fling around then I don't see why it couldn't have been Lanfear, disguised as Moiraine, who was with Rand at the beginning of TDR. She could have killed Moir and Lan easily.<br /><br /> Major Issue Two - An old Latin phrase 'cui bono?' Who would benefit? Why in the world would Norry stay now that he knows Rand isn't coming back. Yeah he would have access to Elayne and if he knew what was up with Rand and Elayne that would be helpful. But that really doesn't give them much of an advantage when all Rand seems to do when a woman dies is to go off mad and kill another Forsaken or two. He's not very good about protecting women but he is really good at avenging them. So why would Dem want to stay in Caemlyn after Rand goes? I'll tell you...he doesn't.<br /> So IF Norry is Dem I think he is rethinking has strategy while trying to figure out how to explain to the DO why he wasted so much time learning all of Norry's particularities etc. Especially Since Rand has been avoiding Caemlyn for...<br />two books now? A lot of good Dem is if he is Norry. Dem would have left as soon as Elayne came and expressed her opinions of Rand's laws and his armies.<br /><br /> Major Issue Three - Norry smiled (albiet a small smile) when talking about a well thought plan for a throne. Dem &quot;almost&quot; smiled when talking about taking over the world. Hmmmm... I'm thinking if Messana hasn't doesn't see him smile over big things (like taking everything) then I doubt Elayne would have the privilege over something small (like the fate of Andor).<br /><br /> Minor Issue One - This is a weaker point but worth noting. Norry doesn't ever channel. You might say &quot;We don't know that.&quot; But think about it. If he channeled someone would <br />know about it. Halima was very careful channeling until Logain was gone. S/he was very anxious that he be gentled or killed. He could sense any large channeling so s/he needed him out of the picture. So, back to Dem/Norry we have two options. Either one, he never did or two, the black coats knew about him. We know the Asha'men didn't <br />know about Dem because he appeared to them to tell them to kill Rand. So if Norry IS Dem then he didn't channel (or did very little) and no one knew about him. Not really likely. Admittedly not impossible but not likely. <br /> <br /> Minor Issue Two - Rand only spent two books in Caemlyn. If Dem was supposed to watch him he would have to take a post that gave more flexibility of movement. As Rand's empire grows he will spend less and less ime in the established places. He almost never goes to Tear and the Waste anymore. He does move around a lot but seems to stay at the battle front. So now that Rand has spent two books as king of Illian wouldn't it be better for Dem to either be travelling with Rand (somehow) or at least at the battlefront where Rand is definitely going to come soonoer or later? As for the arguement that Dem perhaps &quot;found himself a position and now he can't leave it&quot;...Never mind. No one is stupid enough to think that Dem can't leave if he wanted to. Unless there was a good reason to stay and that goes back to Major Issue Two.<br /><br /> Minor Issue Three - Every other Forsaken has some pretty &quot;powerful&quot; people helping them (Black Ajah, Dark Friends, Royalty/Blood). Who does Norry have? David Hanlon? <br />Maybe but it almost seems he is working for a lower level Darkfriend group. Didn't he say something like &quot;It worked just like WE planned...&quot; talking about the atempted assassination and &quot;rescue&quot;. I don't see Dem (or any Forsaken) letting a normal DF taking credit for an operation (or even helping plan it). What about the three or four Black Ajah in the city? Well they seem pretty disoriented for being directed by a Forsaken. If Dem were in the city he would have control over all the BA and DF as well as a few other friends he probably could keep hidden. This isn't an argument against the Norandred theory as much as it is a question as to whether Demandred would leave<br />himself so open without at least getting some contacts up.<br /><br />I guess that is everything I can come up with off the top of my head. I could think up more with time but I really doubt RJ will pull a Norandred out in the next few books.<br /><br />Flame Away<br /><br />Ciel the Baerlon Maid<br />Doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 23:50:27
subject: <b>hey wotmania...</b>
body:
Hey wotmania, perhaps we could combine all these responses that say teh same thing over and over into one comment?  I know you won't, but I am getting tired of seeing new blackboard comments on the theory post screen, coming, and reading somebody say waht vashti said 3 days ago...again.  And then the next day, again, another person saying what vashti said...again.  Vashti covered everything brought up in the last response, or so I thought.  Maybe the last poster just felt the need to rant.<br /><br /><br />&quot;I AM the Dragon Reborn...Just Kidding!&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />     -Logrim Ablaim-


created: 2001-12-20 00:41:41
subject: <b>Elayne</b>
body:
Elayne, certainly, would know Norry very well. Morgase had been teaching her about all the rulership business, and Norry has no doubt been working since before she was born. You want me to believe that Demandred could act the part of Norry so convincingly, without Semirhage's help as i have proven above, that Elayne does not think one thought like &quot;he was acting a bit weird today&quot; ? Shu-ure!


created: 2001-12-20 06:33:15
subject: <b>I didn't read all the replies...</b>
body:
so this may have been bought up. I think you've posted the most original and well thought out theory in long time. But I totally disagree that Nory is Demandred. We know from the end of the TPoD and WsH that Shiaine that has been ordered to capture Elayne, which came from Moridin, and that Daved Hanlon has been told by Moggy to obey to obey Shiaine. We know Moggy been mind trapped, so her order must have come Moridin . We also know that Moridin is Nae'blis and even Demandred obeys his comands. So if Demandred was Nory in the palace and we've seen him alone with Elayne, why didn't he just shield or knock her out when he was alone with her and obey Moridin's command to kidnap her ? I guess you can say that Dem wasn't given that command, but I think that if Moridin knew that one of FS (and they're all under his control, one way or other, so he'd know) was in the palace  that he'd give that command to his one of them, than let a simple DF, who can't even channel take that command. We know from earlier books that no female can feel when a male channels, so if Nory was Demandred, he'd have ample chance to take Elayne!!! So IMO Nory is not Demandred and we won't find out if he's been someone in disguise, until RJ gives us a POV like he did with Osan'gar.<br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-20 12:15:11
subject: <b>Nay</b>
body:
To all the detractors of this theory, well stated.  I disagree with this theory as well, but you have made a much better and more articulate case against it than I ever could have.<br /><br />To Mahiro, nice try, but I think your theory was built more on straw than on rock.  Anyway, it sparked a very interesting debate, which has been lacking on this site for a while now.  Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 00:16:28
subject: <b>AOBtD and others who disagree...</b>
body:
Thanks for the participation even though you disagree.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To those who like the theory, thank you for your support.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-21 00:53:26
subject: <b>For those not yet convinced...</b>
body:
In the part of my theory that Wotmania posted, I made a reference to common reactions to the same or similar events between Norry and Demandred.<br /><br />In WH, we see in Demandred's POV (ch. 13 p. 314), he is thinking about Aran'gar:<br />&quot;Demandred hardly scorned fleshly pleasures, but one day her cravings would be the death of her.  As they already had been once.&quot;<br /><br />Yet we also have a Norry reaction to Rahvin controlling Morgase:  &quot;... he had done so almost from the day [Morgase]had fallen into Rahvin's clutches, though Norry was vague about that.  He seemed offended by the events of those days, in a rather dusty way. (ch. 8, p. 191)  [the vagueness could indicate the time frame when Demandred replaced the real Norry]<br /><br /><br />Another similare reaction is Demandred complaining about poor communications (ch. 13, p. 313):<br />&quot;The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message.&quot;<br /><br />Earlier, we had a Norry complaint about poor communications (ch, 9, p. 214).<br /><br />Just something to think about.<br /><br /><br />mahiro


created: 2001-12-21 01:09:54
subject: <b>For those who are curious</b>
body:
A few of you mentioned that i don't seem to be answering kenco comments.  I don't intend to.  he is on my ignore list.  I will never again respond to one of his posts.<br /><br />This is not because of the skillful or lack thereof way he makes his comments.  It is simply because kenco's comments are condescending and arrogant when they are not outright insulting.  <br /><br />He has been insulting me and others for about a year now.  I just got tired of it. <br /><br />I am not alone in this.  People from Dragonmount have said the same things about him.  A few of you might have noticed kenco's tendency to resort to insults in his black board thread comments on his Taimandred theory here at wotmania.  It was even starting to show in his comments on this thread.<br /><br />Recently there has been a new development.  To make it appear that more people agreed with him, he created another account at wheeloftime.com  He used this account to direct insults at me and to support his kenco theories.  You can see the arrogance and his condescending attitude as well as the insults for yourself on my Norry thread pages 4 and 5 at wheeloftime.com<br /><br />The moderator for the board was not amused and permanently banned him.<br /><br /><br />mahiro<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-21 07:26:11
subject: <b>mahiro mahiro mahiro...</b>
body:
Though it might surprise you, I'm actually not using multiple accounts of wot board. Sam got it wrong. As it happens, i have a twin brother who is using the lukon account. Naturally we are like minded, and i can't help it if he decides to pay out your theory. You probably don't believe me at this stage, so why don't i prove myself.<br /><br />check out http://www.thetaint.org/mnr/42-12-04-01.html. It's Aan'allein's monday night rant, for December the 4th. Scroll down to the bit &quot;Everything you've always wanted to know about... the secret life of kenco&quot;. Scroll down a few paragraphs, and you might find the words &quot;Well, the biggest thing that has shaped my present would probably be my twinhood&quot;. And yes, that section was written by me.<br /><br />Now, i can't exactly fault you for believing that i am using multiple accounts, or that i am the owner of lukon, but i am not, so remove the thought from your head. <br /><br />Now that we have that little issue sorted out, you should calm down, at least within the volume of this thread. I haven't tended toward insult in this thread at all. I was also entirely civil in your wotboard thread, despite your  barring of me. I have added some criticisms of your theory that you should consider if you want this theory to be anything close to watertight. <br />


created: 2001-12-21 15:25:59
subject: <b>I think the fact that Elaidia</b>
body:
had a foretelling that the key to victory in TG lay at Andor's door (The Lion Throne more specifically) lends a little credence to the existense of Normandred.  It would make sense for Demandred to be there, immersed and hidden in Andor, if the Dark One considered the whole and complete nation of Andor to be very dangerous to the Shadow's chances of victory.  Any opinions on that?  Mahiro?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 17:19:46
subject: <b>About Elaida's Foretelling</b>
body:
I was under the impression that Elaida didn't tell anyone about that Fortelling? If so the Demandred couldn't know about it and probably wouldn't think Andor was that important.<br /><br />Then again Alviarin could have told Messana about Elaida's obsession with Elayne and Mesanna could have told Demandred... It doesn't seem like much of a foundation though. I would think the Forsaken would work on something more than a seeming whim of a puppet Amrylin.<br /><br />Just a thought,<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 19:29:12
subject: <b>Wow! 50 comments...</b>
body:
I don't believe I have seen this before.  What a theory to inspire 50 blackboard comments...<br /><br />I really can't add anything to the detractors or protractors at this point, thought I'd point out that it is an excellent theory just to have inspired 50 comments...<br /><br />Good job, everyone!<br /><br />Do have a question, though...where are some other online spots that have theories?  I went to wheeloftime.come but it was just a video game thing...anyway, let me know.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2001-12-22 01:31:08
subject: <b>Hm...</b>
body:
How can Miss Crazy go without commenting on a theory that is so absolutely <i>excellent</i>? Have to say I wish I'd thought of it, though...wouldn't mind the fame you'll get if it turns out true. Because I don't think anyone else has posted a theory that original. I almost skipped past it, when I saw the title, and subject matter, but now I'm glad I didn't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As it is, I have to say I heartily agree with it, and permanently reject what I said about remaining neutral on the Taimandred thing. <br /><br />And I do think it's funny whoever made the observation that most of Taimandred's supporters seem to have defected...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Merry Christmas!<br /><br />PS: See if you can come up with anything else so revolutionary and so very good- I'd like to see it. *encourages you dreadfully*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 02:46:57
subject: <b>A few points and comments...</b>
body:
Ciel, most if not all of what you brought up was discussed in the original thread at the book forum on wheeloftime.com<br />To repost it here would take a lot of typing and I am not that good a typist, sorry.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />CNRedDragon, I do admit to being a former Taimandred supporter until WH.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Paco51, that's a point I never thought of before!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm not sure who brought this up, but I explained why it would be logical for Norry (if he is Demandred) to remain in place in Caemlyn and not look for Rand.  This discussion is on the original thread at wheeloftime.com   Sorry, but anyone interested in it will just have to read the thread there.  <br /><br />slanted, I mentioned that quote in the original thread as something to keep track of.  Demandred likes standing to make himself appear taller.  I mentioned that quote since Elayne described Norry as standing (or was it reminding her of) like a heron.  And I don't know how to describe the way a heron stands.  Sorry.   Thanks for the comment.<br /><br /><br />To everyone who posted, thank you for the discussion!<br /><br />mahiro


created: 2001-12-22 03:08:40
subject: <b>Miss Crazy</b>
body:
Thank you for the positive comments.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I do have a few other theories which were on a different train of thought than what I have seen here and elsewhere.  Unfortuneately, they disappeared when wheeloftime.com put them into the archives.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  I will try to post what I remember of them.<br /><br />Logain earlier refered to one of them.  One of my theories was that Rand was Aemon reborn.  As Logain noted, there is a major similarity between Elayne and Ilyena.<br /><br />Elayne is a very strong channeler.  I concluded that Ilyena was a strong channeler as well (sorry, but to post it here would make this reply a lot longer).  Important since channeling strength is apparantly connected to the soul.  As Logain noted, Elayne is one letter off from Ilyena. (almost but not quite an anagram).  Both had hair colored like the sun.<br /><br />Now look at the last queen of Manetheren.  She was also a strong channeler.  Her name was Eldrene ay ellan ay carlan.  If you rearrange her name like the way done with Elayne/Ilyena, take out the -dre- and add in the -ay-, the new name is Elayne and I don't think she was called the &quot;Rose of the Sun&quot; for any reason other than her hair color.<br /><br />the theory was just as long as my Norry one and I thought of every way to shoot it down.  I found passages in the books to counter every conceivable argument against it, except for the view that it's a red herring placed there by RJ.<br /><br />Unfortuneately, RJ himself confirmed it was an intentional misdirection.  This is Aemon misdirection I refered to in the theory posted here.  oh well...  <br /><br />Someone posted one of my other theories to the newsgroups, so you might have seen it already.  If you are interested, I'll send them to wotmania later.<br /><br />thanks,<br />mahiro   <br /><br />


created: 2001-12-22 14:34:01
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
there is something which doesn't seem right.<br />For instance: Rand is never in Caemlyn anymore... why would a person of the importance of  norry stay?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 18:14:39
subject: <b>mierin and others who commented on this point...</b>
body:
Ok, since several people were asking about it, I'll just post a quick summary of why it would be logical for Norry/Demandred to remain in Caemlyn when Rand had left.<br /><br />When Rand left Caemlyn, he was still being watched by dashiva.  Rand had not yet begun to hide from people.  Dashiva was with him everywhere Rand went.  Dashiva was part of his Asha'man guard.  Remaining in place would be sensible if Rand went to Caemlyn - Dashiva could not go there.<br /><br />After Rand disappeared (from the Shadow's POV that is), it would still be logical for demandred to remain in the palace.  If I lost track of someone who was moving around a lot and leaving false clues, I would think trying to chase after him would be futile.<br /><br />I would go where I think that person would be.  Look at what Rand did.  He set up Stewards in Tear, Illian, and Cairhien.  Setting up a Steward seems at least to me that rand will not go there for some time.<br /><br />The only capital he did not set up a Steward in was Caemlyn.  And Caemlyn for all outward appearances had someone who does not appear to be following Rand. It would be reasonable to expect rand to show up in Caemlyn to negotiate under what terms Elayne would follow him.<br /><br />A similar analysis for why it would be logical to remain in place was undertaken by Coiren (?) in LOC.<br /><br />thanks,<br />mahiro <br /><br />


created: 2001-12-24 02:58:00
subject: <b>mahiro...</b>
body:
you've got at least two notes on your noteboard that I know of. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  No response? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I'm just curious as to whether you think that is productive support to the Normandred theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-24 18:26:52
subject: <b>mauladala</b>
body:
My apologies for not getting to your point.  With so many comments, it just slipped my mind.  <br /><br />As for why I think the Shadow is apparantly fixated on Andor, I can come up with a few reasons although I do admit it is pure conjecture with no real evidentiary support.  <br /><br />In TEOTW, the Dark One (or was it really Ishammael?) seemed to know something of Rand's mother.  She was called something like a &quot;brood mare&quot; for the Creator's purposes.  that desciption does seem to indicate knowledge that Rand's mother is Tigraine.  The focus on Andor could be a result of this.<br /><br />Another possibility is because of the important role Andor normally plays in the Westlands.  It has a central location with I would imagine a fairly large population.  The central location is important because nations further west would be expected to be swallowed up by the Seanchan and/or were already in political chaos.  Political chaos would seem to exclude nations like Cairhien and Murandy from the Shadow's attention.  <br /><br />I hope this answers your question (note?).  I don't seem to recall what the other note(s) were.  Could you tell me who made them?  There are a lot of comments as you might have noticed.<br /><br /><br />BTW, the fourth paragraph of my previous comment would make more sense if it read:  &quot;I would go where I think that person will be.&quot;   <br />Will makes more sense than would.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for the discussion,<br />mahiro


created: 2001-12-25 01:23:36
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
I'm really liking the idea of the Shadow focusing a lot of attention on Andor.  With the &quot;rebel&quot; Aes Sedai still there, Tenobia's and the other borderlander's armies there, Elayne not yet secured on the Lion Throne, and the possibility of a Normandred, we have quite an interesting situation.<br />The &quot;notes&quot; are the ones sent to you on the noteboard.  I had sent you two...wasn't aware if you received them. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Thanks for answering though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-26 11:27:48
subject: <b>Some Evidence from WH</b>
body:
...which I have just reread. There were a few incidents in which Elayne said that Norry WAS acting oddly. She didn't say so in as many words, but the first time Norry (almost) cracks a joke and Elayne's rather taken aback. The second time is when she comes home from the Borderlanders and Norry's nearly hopping up and down with impatience about the small armies approaching from the east. <br />Another thing to point out -- Norry almost always speak in a dull monotone. That would make it all the easier for Demandred to disguise his voice. Word choice would be trickier, of course, but as we just saw Norry is not being his normal self all the time. <br />One problem with my earlier posts is that in them I hypothesized that the staged rescue of Elayne was very parallel to Normandred (if true). It seems that Moghedien gave that band of DFs their instructions. <br />The only way to repair this breech, that I can see, is that Moghedien doesn't breathe without Moridin's permission. If Demandred got ordered to Caemlyn by Moridin, then perhaps it's all HIS plan. (Which would make sense with his comments about playing both sides of the board. Hmm -- maybe this isn't as bad a problem as I thought.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 02:25:11
subject: <b>well thought of...</b>
body:
this is a great comprehensive theory. as for both rahvin and dem being in caemlyn, i think rahvin doen't know dem is there, or if he has some suspicion, he presumes it is upon the orders of the DO. the DO has somewhat encouraged the competition among his forsaken minions, it was mentioned briefly but i have to check which book. besides, whatever orders the DO has for the forsaken, they often find ways to create situations to their own self advantage. <br />dem as norry makes sense as he needs a way to keep track of things around rand, sp. rand's plans. remember, the forsaken aren't omnipotent. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 13:08:16
subject: <b>mauladala....</b>
body:
&quot;I think the fact that Elaidia<br />had a foretelling that the key to victory in TG lay at Andor's door (The Lion Throne more specifically) lends a little credence to the existense of Normandred. It would make sense for Demandred to be there, immersed and hidden in Andor, if the Dark One considered the whole and complete nation of Andor to be very dangerous to the Shadow's chances of victory. Any opinions on that?&quot;<br /><br />1<br />she didn`t tell anyone about her brilliant foretelling<br />1 1/2<br />wich of course actually refers to rand if you read it instead of summarizing it up like that (badly, thet is)<br /><br />2<br />aha, so the shadow (DO) consider andor to be crucial etc..<br />wait a minute.....<br />Elaida is no DF (hello, finish WH)<br /><br />3<br />why does I actually bother to write this?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-29 23:01:35
subject: <b>NEW EVIDENCE!!! (Or rather, really old evidence...)</b>
body:
Let me start by saying great job on this theory... I'm not convinced by any means, but it was very well conceived and argued. I've seen very little in the above thread to seriously denounce it... espescially in light of the new (or rather, old) evidence I bring to you now... I apologize in advance, because I'm rather long winded... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One of the main holes in this theory, according to at least thirty of the above posts, is the Forsaken's supposed inability to use Illusion or Mirror of Mists to impersonate another, already established character. Several of the above posts have stated point blank that NO evidence that this was possible has ever been demonstrated by ANY of the Forsaken EVER.<br /><br />Well, you're wrong. It's just not been done recently.<br /><br />I refer you to The Great Hunt (Yes, book two of the series, lo those many pages ago), in Chapter 25, &quot;Questions,&quot; on page 240, a young Novice named Else Grinwell, who all the women knew very well, delivers a message to Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve from the Amyrlin, telling them where to find the belongings left by Liandrin and her Black Ajah... anybody still remember this, back when the plots weren't nearly so twisted, and most things about WoT still made sense?<br /><br />Anyway, &quot;Else&quot; delivered her message and ran off. When the girls gave chase to stop Else from blabbing the news to everyone she came across, Egwene ended up having a fairly unnerving conversation with Lanfear, who, last I knew, was still counted among the Forsaken and had apparently just disguised herself as Else for the purposes of delivering her message. The Amyrlin later tells the girls that she sent no message and that Else Grinwell had been put on a boat for home ten days before. Lanfear had successfully used Mirror of Mists or Illusion or some such to impersonate an established character, and not only that, she did it in a tower filled to the brim with women who could channel, PROVING NOT ONLY THAT IT CAN BE DONE, BUT THAT IT CANNOT BE DETECTED!<br /><br />Prior to this, a recently recovered Mat Cauthon ran into Else/Lanfear, and recognized her from the night spent on her father's farm (tGH, Ch. 24, pg 225 HB), proving that the Mask of Mirrors or Illusion (as Graendal and Sammael called it in LoC - whether two names for the same thing or not I don't know) proving that the disguise was convincing enough for a still-woozy Mat to pluck her face and name from his swiss-cheesed memory.<br /><br />Now, just so it doesn't come up later, her mannerisms were not what Mat remembered, and while Lanfear knew who Mat was, she apparently had no idea why he should no Else Grinwell, but this can be easily explained by the fact that she was not planning to take over Else's life, just borrow her face for a few minutes. She hadn't put a lot of research into it, like Demandred would have if he wanted to be Norry. Also, when she ran into Mat, she was not yet &quot;in character&quot; as Else Grinwell. Lanfear had expected to walk all the way the the girls' room without speaking to anyone. When she appeared to the girls, she was appropriately flighty to convince them that she was who she appeared to be.<br /><br />Another piece of evidence...<br />This is for all those out there wondering why Demandred would have stayed around to help Elayne govern Andor...<br /><br />I reference you to Book 6, Lord of Chaos, Chapter 7, &quot;A Matter of Thought,&quot; page 163 I believe, (US HB)... Just after their terrifying experience in the White Tower of Tel'aran'rhiod, the Salidar Aes Sedai head back to their beds in the real world, but Elayne first makes a stop in the throne room of the Royal Palace in Caemlyn. She spends a few paragraphs thinking about what Rand is doing there, talks to herself for a minute, then leaves...<br /><br />&quot;Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the<br />girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter'angreal by the faint<br />look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what was in her head,<br />but her words and expression had been plain enough. SHE DID NOT LIKE WHAT AL'THOR WAS DOING HERE, NOT IN THE LEAST, AND MEANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any case, ANOTHER THREAD IN THE TANGLE YANKED, however feeble the pull turned out to be.<br />&quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule,&quot; he told the thrones&#8212; though he still wished he knew why it had to be so&#8212; and<br />opened a gateway to leave Tel'aran'rhiod.&quot;<br /><br />Now, this has come up in several earlier posts, but I think a lot of people missed a key point here. Demandred realizes that Elayne doesn't approve of Rand's actions, and thinks he might be able to turn her against Rand. I'm not sure about this, but I think the only Forsaken who really knows of the relationship between them is Lanfear... they haven't spoken to each other since the Stone of Tear, and there really isn't a whole lot to make Demandred think they're in love, unless there's something I'm not remembering from a Forsaken gathering. Demandred may only see a young princess whose mother has disappeared and whose throne has been taken by a young farmboy playing at being High King. He probably didn't think it would be too hard if he could impersonate one of her trusted advisors well enough to fool her. May I point out that Halwin Norry makes his first report to the Lord Dragon only thirty pages later? Interesting... All he has to do is play the part well enough to convince Rand he can be trusted to manage things while Rand is away, then wait for Elayne to claim her throne and start working at her. Rhavin had almost taken Andor for himself before Morgase escaped and Rand killed him. But where Rhavin failed with Morgase, Demandred may succeed with her daughter to become the power behind the throne. I think it's incentive enough to learn to play the part of Halwin Norry.<br /><br />At the same time, he can still control his legions of darkfriends to increase chaos in other areas (I've heard he always did like using proxies) such as the incident with Demira and the Aiel mentioned in above posts. If Demandred can claim credit for that little episode, the consequences of that act would surely be grounds for the Great Lord's pleasure on his return visit in the epilogue... <br /><br />This still doesn't absolutely convince me of your theory, but it does allow you to discount about 80% of the criticism I've seen here. I admit I have only read what is on WoTmania, so I don't claim to know what was said where this was originally posted, but I have to imagine if someone had said these things there you would have brought it up here by now. It is a very intriguing idea, and the more I think on it, the more sense it makes.<br /><br />Sorry for making this so long... I like to refute all possible arguments against my posts ahead of time to save on arguments later... I hope you find some of this as interesting as I find your theory!


created: 2001-12-30 00:26:12
subject: <b>Oooh! Another one!!</b>
body:
I promise this won't be as long, but as I was rereading what I just posted above, I thought of another point in your favor...<br /><br />I pointed out in my above post that Sammael and Graendal used the term &quot;Illusion&quot; instead of &quot;Mirror of Mists...&quot; For some reference, turn to pages 130-138 of Lord of Chaos. (USHB) This is Chapter 6: Threads Woven of Shadow. During this lengthy exchange we see a conversation between Graendal and Sammael from his POV. During their conversation, Graendal briefly shows Sammael the disguise she uses as an old Domani noblewoman. This sparks one of Jordan's famous tangents where a character starts thinking extraneous information for no apparent reason. Graendal flashes her disguise for all of half a second, and:<br />&quot;He barely stopped his lip from curling. One touch would prove the angular contours of that face were not hers&#8212; only the most subtle use of Illusion could pass that test&#8212; but Graendal seemed wedded to flamboyance. The next moment she was herself again, wearing a wry smile.&quot;<br /><br />Why? Why would Graendal even show off like that? And then why would Sammael think that about Illusion and touching and so forth? The only answer is that it explains to the reader a device that the author intends to use. Here is where Jordan really starts to bring to the front that the Forsaken are disguising themselves... We've seen &quot;Lord Brend,&quot; &quot;Lord Gaebril&quot; and &quot;High Lord Samon,&quot; but we don't really know if they are disguising their appearances much. They seem to be pretty close to their regular descriptions as it is. We've seen Lanfear's disguise as Keille Shaogi, but he didn't talk much about HOW she did it... and remember, her Illusion was quite a bit different from her actual appearance. I'm not going to reread it, but look for times she shied away from being touched... And the most recent instance, the Prologue of LoC mentions that Moghedien's disguise as &quot;Marigan&quot; uses some trick of the power that Nynaeve and Elayne have learned, but it doesn't elaborate any further. We're starting to get used to Forsaken disguising themselves and hiding right under our noses.<br /><br />Also, these previous instances were all integral to the current primary plot at the time. Here Graendal is using it in a place far removed from our present storyline with no apparent impact on what's going on... a definite clue to watch for it in other places as well.<br /><br />My point is, this seemingly extraneous exchange takes place in LoC Ch. 6. The bit about Demandred spying on Elayne that I mentioned in the last post happened in Ch. 7. And Halwin Norry appears in Chapter 16 (I mistakenly said above that he appeared in Chapter 10, pg 193 -- this is merely the first time his name is mentioned. He doesn't actually appear as a character until Ch. 16, pg 272. Still, I think the mentioning in Ch. 10 is important... he was already known to Rand and doing his job)<br /><br />It seems to me that if you are looking, you can see RJ drawing a line here, from Moghedien using Illusion to Sammael explaining Illusion to seeing the Forsaken making their plans disguised as other people to... Well, I don't know for sure where that points to, but it seems to me that Halwin Norry can't be discounted as a possibility.<br /><br />I'll admit that this might just be reaching and seeing connections where none exist, but this proliferation of disguises was a good argument when people used it to point at Taim. We know for a fact that that is false, but does that necessarily mean that it's not pointing to another character who appeared in the first half of LoC? No. If Taim was just a distraction, who was he meant to distract us from?<br /><br />There's really only one argument against Norry that I haven't been able to explain away... In Sammael's conversation with Graendal in Ch. 6:<br />&quot;You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to.&quot; Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. 'Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans.&quot; Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. &quot;So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it.&quot;<br /><br />Here's my problems...<br />1) Events to the South - He says events TO the south, not events IN the south, as some have tried to argue. If &quot;to the south&quot; was relative to, say, Kandor, it could refer to almost anything going on anywhere on the continent. So, &quot;to the south&quot; of what? Sammael has set up shop in Illian, but nothing is south of Illian, so it must be &quot;to the south&quot; of where they are having this conversation, in Eastern Arad Doman. South of Arad Doman is Almoth Plain, Tarabon, and Amadicia. A liberal use of &quot;south&quot; could include Ghealdan, Altara, and perhaps the extreme west of Andor, including the Two Rivers, where nothing has happened for quite a while. Certainly Caemlyn would be considered &quot;west&quot; of Arad Doman, not south.<br />2)Proxies? Him or his friends? His lackeys can &quot;carve out what he wants&quot;? None of this meshes with Halwin Norry.<br /><br />To me, these statements give clear indication that Demandred is controlling the Seanchan. However, I think that has been fairly well argued against in various other theories. The only other explanation is that Sammael is full of it and really doesn't have the foggiest what Demandred is up to, and RJ including that was just another ploy to throw us off track, which is definitely possible, if quite sneaky and underhanded.<br /><br />I guess this didn't turn out quite as short as I'd hoped, but if you can refute the last problems I mentioned, I think you might have me convinced. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-30 02:25:58
subject: <b>OH MY GOD!!!!!!</b>
body:
jesus, you must be a genius.  i have never thought of that!!!!!! you are a god!!!!! you are a genius, and a complete insane man to be reading the books that many times? what happened to the words? did your eyes where them off?  please, post more and i will worship more, My god/godess, whichever, whatever.<br /> <br />Kenny


created: 2001-12-30 18:08:19
subject: <b>Luthair</b>
body:
Thanks for the points about Else.  No one in the original thread brought up arguments about impersonating someone well known before.  Plus, admittedly I had forgotten about the else counter-argument.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for your second point, someone posted here that the proxy reference in your second post could have refered to Semirhage since she is apparantly with the Seanchan and has been allied with demandred for some time.   <br /><br />


created: 2001-12-30 18:19:55
subject: <b>Demandred wasn't always a general...</b>
body:
Getting back to earlier posts, several people stated that they could not see Demandred as Norry because they could not see a general doing the work that Norry does.<br /><br />Everyone is forgetting (myself included since I didn't argue this before.  OK so no one's perfect <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) Demandred was not always a general.  The Guide tells us he was a writer who wrote books on a variety of subjects before the War of Power broke out.  The Guide does not say what those subjects were though.  the second most brilliant man of his Age should have a variety of talents.  And as the First Clerk, he could just be giving orders like a general does.<br /><br /><br />thanks for reading this far,<br />mahiro


created: 2002-01-03 16:48:08
subject: <b>Off the beaten path...but !</b>
body:
...It would seem that there are a lot of WoT junkies present on this thread, so I want to broach a topic quickly.  The 2nd Coursa'va (Mind Trap) {I apologize the Old Tongue word for it eludes me at the moment, work can do that to you} that Moridin wears around his neck is mentioned but never further explored.  I'm sure people have speculated, or not, and maybe even come to the same thought that I have on it, but here it goes in any event.<br /><br />I'm clinging to this &quot;... Mazrim Taim not evil, but forced somehow to work against Rand...&quot; mentality I have.  If not through compulsion, who says the 2nd mind trap has to be another Forsaken, why couldn't it be Taim.  This would also help to explain the comments be Moridin right after he fondled each of the Mind Traps (I'll try to paraphrase it), something to the effect of Rand was being hedged in because the Shadow was playing both sides of the board.  (In reference to the Fisher King)  <br /><br />This theory is one of those hit or miss types, I have little confidence in it, but I had to make mention of that 2nd Mind Trap in the hopes that someone will pick up the ball and run with it.  That single object holds more mystery for me in the books right now, then any other single facet of the tale.  I wish I could explain why.


created: 2002-01-03 18:17:58
subject: <b>Kennyw...</b>
body:
Thank you for the flattery.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />  I like to think I am fairly intelligent, but I admit I fall short of the genius level.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for being a god, I am not a deity.  You may however kiss the ring.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And yes, I've been told I have waaay too much free time on my hands.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  But really, the idea that Norry is Demandred came to me on my second read through of WH - just a week or so after it was released.<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-03 19:08:10
subject: <b>mahiro:</b>
body:
Ahh, we meet again mahiro <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> As you may know, I disagree with your theory. It&#8217;s very good, well thought out and you&#8217;re pretty convincing, but I believe Demandred is pulling strings, rather than acting to be someone. I&#8217;ll try and give a few points:<br /><br />Semirhage could have drained Norry? But Rand took Andor at the end of TFOH, and Semirhage was draining the Aes Sedai for Aran&#8217;gar in the first half of LOC. Not to mention that Norry would have been needed in the first few days, not a week or more after the palace was taken. Yet Norry was described to be one of the few that stuck around and keep the whole palace running . . . how could he have kept the place running while at the same time been captured? How could he have been running the palace if he wasn&#8217;t around for a week or two? And let me remind you, he must have been captured and drained _after_ Rand took Andor as before then Demandred _definitely_ wouldn&#8217;t have put himself under Rahvin.<br /><br />And taking your interpretation of First Clerk, being similar to Prime Minister. Technically this would mean he has duties which he can&#8217;t delegate, that he has to do himself. Duties that require speaking to people, arranging matters including money, checking up on subordinates . . . Norry must be known to the bankers of Andor at the very least, and they wouldn&#8217;t have run away. Surely then other people outside the palace would know him, and what about the retirement home? Would the people there have run away? Wouldn&#8217;t they know the man who runs Andor?<br /><br />To take over the job of Norry you need an awful lot of knowledge. Not only do you need to know everything about the man himself, his personality, traits, quirks, handwriting, speech patterns, accent, body language, etc. You also need to know everything a first clerk does and knows. I don&#8217;t know the duties of a first clerk, but I would imagine that accounting comes into it somewhere, balance sheets and the like. But there must be more if he is credited with keeping Andor on it&#8217;s feet while Rahvin ruled.<br /><br />Reene doesn&#8217;t like Norry for some unknown reason . . . would the fact that he controls part of the palace be good enough? He is a direct threat to her influence, if it wasn&#8217;t for him, she would be in complete control of the running of the palace. Plus I would imagine he handles her budget . . . that would surely piss her off! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Elayne spent a lot of time climbing trees and the like! Lol! How long does a school day last in the US? Over here they are only from 9 to 3. That then means you have the rest of the day to do whatever you want, for example climb trees. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> She surely had time for both.<br /><br />Plus taking kenco&#8217;s points (I may disagree with the overall argument of his, but his points against Norry are good.) . . .<br /><br />Oh, and I was a Taimandred supporter, but was eventually converted while trying to argue against the WH evidence at wheeloftime.com


created: 2002-01-03 19:56:58
subject: <b>What I think...</b>
body:
I like this theory more than I did the Taimandred one. But personally I believe he's doing something with the Dragonsworn. The real major point against this theory is the amount of work involved in taking over Norry's role. Why would Demandred give himself so much to do? Norry spends all his time rushing about with papers and organising meetings etc. While I don't doubt that Demandred is perfectly capable of doing these chores, could he do them as well as meetng up with the Forsaken, springing his own traps and organising the Ashaman?<br /><br />If you look at every other Forsaken who has taken up an identity, they have had very little to do or live up to.<br /><br />Graendal- an Invalid Lady, who, although has a certain control, keeps it under wraps with heavy Compulsion.<br /><br />Lanfear- A Trader in the Aiel Waste and a farmgirl.<br /><br />Asmo- A Gleeman, not so far from his original role before the Breaking<br /><br />Sammael- Lord Brend, who also used Compulsion and was very inefficient at his job. Norry is not.<br /><br />Moghedien- A servant and Marigan<br /><br />Be'lal- High Lord Samon. Everyone was suspicious and he used Compulsion <br /><br />Mesaana- She is so deeply hidden in the Tower that no-one has a clue. Maskerading as an Aes Sedai (If she is) is very easy for an Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Aginor / Dashiva- A farmer Ashaman. The excuses were flimsy, but there was next to no backround to live up to.<br /><br />Balthamel / Halima- She is another made-up character. But every fact has been supplied by Semirage. Also, people note how she is totally inappropriate to be a secretary.<br /><br />Semhirage / Anath?- She is nearly perfect for the job, plus she is somehow controlling the Empress. Perhaps too efficient at her job? Not an awful lot of work, anyway. All she has to do is berate Tuon and punish her. Hardly compares to what Norry has to do.<br /><br />Rahvin- How long did he last? He was another major Compulsionist who sent half the palace and the Queens Guard out of Caemlyn to cover his tracks.<br /><br />Saying that, you've been very efficient in coming up with reasonable explanations for most things. I sympathise because I wrote rather a long theory on Verin's plan and people attacked the weaker points I added more as back-up rather than tackling the issue why the theory was false.<br /><br />I'm still sticking with my theory, so stick with yours <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Makes a pleasant change from Tain, Bashere and Wieramon.<br /><br />We'll have to get a FAQ up on this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 14:23:10
subject: <b>Newer theory for Halwin Norry as Demandred</b>
body:
While this evidence is a tangential, I at least wanted to bring it to the surface.  One interesting point about the Hal-mandred theory is that Halwin Norry magically saves the day for Elayne.  When Elayne is finacially deprived and the banks won't lend, she is in a very precarious position.  Elayne needs lots of green to finance armies to defend her claim, and not to mention keep her people fed. <br />         Halwin Norry shows up as the hero by telling Elayne<br />    that one of her estates, Danabar, has a huge stash of a certain highly valuable mineral called alum.  Now, I found this to be a little stretched.  Seriously,  how long has this estate been possessed by Elyane's family?  And why did the metal show up at precisely this instant?<br />      There are several viewpoints to consdier , but one I would like to introduce is Hal-mandred located the metal for Elayne.  We know that male channelers are very good with channeling and probing for metal.  If Demandred really was Norry, he would definitely be in the position to probe for Elyane's new stash of metal.  <br />      Basically, my thought is that the Dark One wants Elayne in control of Andor.  One example is that Daved Hanlon was set up as the captain of Elayne's bodyguard.  Elayne is part of the Dark One's plans (or at least of another Forsaken's plans) and Hal-mandred's orders were to help Elayne secure her throne.  This included helped Elayne find the financial resources.  Hal-mandred would go at great length to find the cash. There were many different ways Demandred could find money, due to his extensive knowledge from AoL, but offering Elayne something that Elayne already owned was the simplest and least suspicious.<br />Therefore, Norry traveled to all of Elayne's estates and probed them for potential worth. He happened to find alum.<br />       Now, others can speculate why Elayne being in control of Andor is so important to the D.O.'s plans, but we do that Norry is a powerful figure who &quot;had kept Caemlyn alive since her mother had fallen into Rhavin's clutches, though Norry was vague about that.&quot; (WH, 191)  With all the previous evidence, I think it is quite possible that Norry may just be Demandred.  Voila:  Hal-mandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 17:43:38
subject: <b>Just wanted to point out....</b>
body:
Hey, I really like your theory!  Very well written too!  <br /><br />Why would Dem keep Elayne there?  He probably doesn't know all about Elayne's and Rand's relationship, but if anyone looked, its not too hard to realize that they know each other in some way.  As someone pointed out, all the other country's, Rand left a steward, and he didn't in Caemlyn.  And heres the big thing, it doesn't take alot to notice that he changed laws in every other country, and left Andor's the same.  That obviously shows favor.  And who knows?  Maybe Elaida said something to Semirehage which Dem found out, about Rand meeting Elayne in tEotW?<br />And then theres Egwene's accepted test...alot of the other things have come true, so what about the part of Rand being in the palace in Caemlyn and asking her to kill him?  So someones probably there to cause that...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 17:46:03
subject: <b>What's the problem?</b>
body:
Look, for those of you who have doubts about Normandred because Norry isn't in/to the South, if Demandred's using proxies then he doesn't NEED to be. He could be in Caemlyn, Seanchan or Shara and using proxies &quot;to the South&quot;. It's that which would have his mark all over it.<br /><br />Not saying I'm totally convinced - yet - but I'm certainly leaning in mahiro's favour.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 02:33:57
subject: <b>Nevman...</b>
body:
And so we do meet again!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  I don't usually check this board as much as I should.  To answer a bunch of your points would require a back and forth discussion.  If you are willing, we can do that the next time you are in the ddtavern.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  It's not all senseless RP there.  Just mostly.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-09 02:40:39
subject: <b>Matrimony Cauthon, Mystery Aes Sedai, and Eyeless Myrddraal...</b>
body:
Just wanted to say thank you for the positive comments even thought you may not be fully convinced.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-09 13:01:39
subject: <b>Re...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
well...you got me about 99% convinced <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Another little thing to add about why he'd stay around....<br /><br />Like I said before, its pretty obvious that Rand favors Andor, so if Demandred had met, and liked Elayne, also seeing the similarity's between her and Ilyena, then he'd probably have put it together that her and Rand have something going on.  Or is that crazy? lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 01:32:47
subject: <b>For those who don't see Demandred doing Norry's work...</b>
body:
For those who don't see Demandred doing the work that Norry does, I found a passage in the Guide that might be of interest.<br /><br />The Guide under Demandred's description stated that in the AoL, he held several high public offices.  <br /><br />Demandred is used to shuffling papers and talking politics with people.  This is exactly what Norry does.<br /><br /><br />Just something to think about.<br />mahiro<br />


created: 2002-01-23 03:09:49
subject: <b>More on Demandred...</b>
body:
Almost forgot this point...<br /><br />We know that Norry kept Andor up and running in the absence of Andor's proper rulers.<br /><br />The Guide specifically states that all members of the Forsaken - including Demandred - served as Governor's of conquered territories.<br /><br />Demandred thus has experience in ruling cities and directing a government.<br /><br /><br />Thank you for reading this far,<br />mahiro


created: 2002-01-23 20:31:02
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I guess I was wrong and there have been Frosaken impersonating real people BUT in the Else Grinwell case Lanfear only did it for a few seconds and only said like one line and disappeared. Not only that but she only did it once and for a couple of Accepted. If it were so easy to do why not pretend to be someone higher and more believable...but then again maybe that was her point.<br /><br />I just don't see any Forsaken going to the trouble of taking over someones life when they can create a new character even easier. Why didn't Dem kill Norry and pretend he was some banker who had to leave Ghealdan (sp?) because of the rampage Masema made of the financial system? <br /><br />As for Norry acting, seemingly, differently now than what she remembered him to be well last time Elayne saw him she was a child. Now she is the queen (or as far as he is concerned). I would think he would treat her differently. Especially since she proved her insight to him at one of the scenes they are together. Besides, why would she have spent a lot of time with Norry before she went to the Tower?<br />Again though that could be a plus for Demandred because it would be easier to steal his place.<br /><br />It seems like I'm just spouting but I'm hoping someone will take what I'm trying to say and run with it a bit. Either direction.<br /><br />By the way - FOR THE RECORD - Elaida has had more than two Fortellings. She has had THREE that we know about. They are:<br /><br />1. Talked about - Crown of Swords Prologue <br />    When - As Amrylin w/ Alviarin<br />    Who knows about it - Alviarin, Mesaana, maybe others now<br />2. Talked about - The Eye of the World <br />    When - In Caemlyn with Rand<br />    Who knows about it - Rand, some others know part<br />3. Talked about - Either thinking about Rand in 2/3 or as Amrylin in 6/7<br />    When - As an Accepted<br />    Who knows about it - NO ONE ELSE!!!<br /><br />It was this third one where the importance of Andor was revealed. No one but Elaida knows that the Andor is vital to winning the Last Battle. It seems too many people are getting her Foretellings mixed up.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 00:30:46
subject: <b>Bye bye Taimandred</b>
body:
Very well thought out and very plausible. Just wait till book 10.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="174565">Yeah, it'll be more like the best MadTV sketch ever made ever. The one that you watch a go &quot;Um, that sketch was way too funny to be on MadTV.&quot;</font></b></font> ~ <i>Sore Thumbs</i><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><p><a href="http://www.wotmania.com/writersmessageboardshowmes" target="_blank">Stossville Zombie Incident: Episode One</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 20:39:04
subject: <b>Good Job!</b>
body:
There is considerable evidence that Demandred is, in fact, Halwin Norry.<br /><br />&quot;Logain 4 His Own Series&quot; thought that it would be unlikely that Demandred would work under Rahvin.  Of course he wouldn't, but with Rahvin focusing on a) Rand's movements, b) his chats with the other Forsaken, c) the restructuring of the army with Darkfriends and d) his suduction of Morgase, Demandred could have easily offed Norry and assumed his place WITHOUT Rahvin's knowledge.  His position gave him influence and power in the country of Andor, allowed him to observe Rahvin and Morgase without detection and gave him easy access to kill Asmodean later.<br /><br />Next, we see a lengthy 10-page scene in WH where Norry and Elayne are discussing the state of the union.  Demandred could have used this opportunity to discover her views on the Borderlands and other issues and, approving of her plans, we conveniently find Elayne's life poorly attempted immediately thereafter and saved by Doilin Mellar, a definite Darkfriend (possibly something more), to gain her trust.<br /><br />As to AOBtD's assertion that the Forsaken have yet to assume the lives of well-known people, I think that is precisely the reason Demandred would have taken Norry's place.  All evidence tells us that Demandred is fighting in a new style against the Dragon, different from the other Forsaken and very different from his previous attempts.  Overt hatred and frontal assults ultimately led to Demandred's downfall against LTT.  Now we see a patient Demandred who schemes among mortals and Forsaken alike.  Where better to hide than in plain view?  Why set your sights on ruling a nation as king or on a council of high lords when you can accomplish the same goal doing it through a well known, well loved and beautiful female monarch.<br /><br />His attempts to gain power through Elayne will have a better chance of success after Rahvin's poor job of hiding who and where he was.  You can't make Morgase up and fire Gareth Bryne without a lot of loyal subjects wondering what the heck just happened.  Many of Elayne's goals will help Demandred too, and her love for the Dragon Reborn will give him access to Rand as well.<br /><br />I say great theorizing.  I can't 100% agree with you right now, but excellent deductions nonetheless.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-08 10:11:31
subject: <b>Demandred is.........</b>
body:
Demandred is Bela. i can't beleve nowone found this befor me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 11:21:22
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
Demandred is not Bela Messana is Bela <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Demandred is Narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 20:31:35
subject: <b>no way!</b>
body:
I cant possibly believe demandred is norry. For semi to have taken him and drained him he would have had to disappear for awhile and in WH Elayne says he has been running the palace since Rahvin started taking over. From what i can tell running a palace is a pretty busy job and the absence of the first clerk would be noticed quickly. Reene Harfor was there the entire time as well and she would have noticed him missing for sure. The reason i get that she doesnt like him is more that they both have jobs that are major parts of running the palace. Elayne's PoV is like 2 people guarding their fiefdoms or something similar to that also in WH. And the only comment ive seen referring to him as a heron was WH A Cup of Tea... He often minded her of a heron. Nothing  about looking at her like a fish. Of course i could have missed a seperate passage referring to him being a heron. Also something else i have seen as proof is Demandred spying on Elayne and stepping out of Tel'aran'rhiod and he must have been in Camelyn. WH Out of Thin Air after Luc/Isam kills the 2 who he thought was Lan and Nynaeve he steps back into dreamworld and finds the chosen waiting for him. After the chosen, who blurrs his image and luc cant see him, gives luc his orders he opens a gateway into a snowy forest glade, not back into the room.<br />Norry is a very far stretch but id imagine you could prove a case for any minor character. Heck, lets not forget Gelb! If demandred is really trying to hide his identity gelb is perfect! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-04 01:12:32
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
I like this theory very much, but am not totally convinced for the same reasons many others have raised.<br /><br />A. Impersonating a prominant person would be so difficult for that period of time.  I figure that the Forsaken might have many effective ways of creating illusions, but the facts, detailed info regarding the governance of Andor, would be hard to counterfeit.<br /><br />B. If Demandred is Norry, why do we need Hanlon and his supporting crew.  Admittedly there is more involved than just grabbing Elayne.  For one thing, she's Rand bait.<br /><br />C. Demandred seemed a little too naive re: what's going on with Aes Sedai and Ashaman for him to have been based in the Palace oin Caemlyn.  But maybe not?<br /><br />Again, I am intrigued<br /><br />Taim truly is the logical one.  Except ....  Dashiva was probably the one teaching those special classes.


created: 2003-02-10 08:18:47
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
In Crossroads of Twilight, we clearly see Halwin Norry giving reports to Elayne while the battle at Shadar Logoth is taking place. Based on his point of view at the end of Winter's Heart, we know Demandred was present at that battle. Since not even Superman can be in two places at the exact same time, Halwin Norry cannot be Demandred.


created: 2003-10-31 03:55:15
subject: <b>just wanted to say</b>
body:
that I BELIEVED TAIM WAS DEMANDRED<br />I no longer do but for awhile there I was pretty convinced<br /><br />and I do agree that its pretty funny how no one will admit they thought the same now that the theorys been torn apart<br /><br />anyway just wanted to prove that not EVERYBODY is scared to admit they were wrong<br /><br />although it would be pretty hilarious if in the end taim WAS demandred.........our faces would be red then


created: 2004-12-13 21:42:30
subject: <b>The seals haven't been weak long enough</b>
body:
How could norry be damandred. Norry is stated as having been in the service of morgase for quite some time before she left and rand and then elayne took over. If the seals have been weak enough for about 3 to 10 years (at the time of CoT) how could damandred have been in the palace long enough to be norry. Also, Damandred doesnt strike me as the kind of person who would spend that much time of his life as a clerk, as it has been mentioned before that he was a solider, and therefore a being of action. Sure, the mask of mirrors excuse might work for asying theat he disposed of norry and took his place, but how would he have been able to take on another persons mannerisms so quickly. Honestly, though the theory has many valid points, and it is fairly believable, these cons to it cannot be ignored.


created: 2006-12-22 05:35:29
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
The problem with ruling out Wieramon on the basis of height is the fact that Lews Therin, although well above average hieght was nowhere near as tall as Rand. This is likely of course due to Rand's Aiel genes.


created: 2001-12-16 19:44:08
subject: <b>Not convinced.....</b>
body:
You didn't seem to mention this dream in your summary...<br /><br />&quot;A man in a bright yellow coat stood near to Perrin's shoulder, a sword strapped to his back; in some way she knew that he was a Tinker. Every time he moved closer to Perrin it was as if a chill of doom shot through everything.&quot;<br /><br />...the only way I can see this applying to your theory is with it meaning the closer Perrin and Aram get, the more alike they become (much like the problem with the Asha'man becoming less human)<br /><br />I also don't agree with your premise that if Aram were a DF then he would have killed Perrin by now. Remember, there are DFs and Forsaken who are protecting Rand as well so the Dark One doesn't necessarily want to kill them (or maybe just not yet!) Remember that at that meeting each DF was given their own individual orders that no-one else could hear. We have no idea what the Tinkere's orders were so saying he was ordered to kill Perrin is pure speculation!<br /><br />Just as an interesting side-thought, do you reckon everyone at that meeting has now been visited by Moridin? I find it hard to believe that after all Rand has accomplished Ishy hasn't changed some of those plans he made.<br /><br />As for Egwene not recognising Aram in her dreams, sometimes dreams can have perfect clarity in some areas while being blurred in others.<br /><br />Finally, as for Aram blowing his cover. Maybe that was just his cover until he met Perrin and now he's positioned himself were he is wanted.<br /><br />Good theory though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I agree with you in a way as I don't think the matter of Aram being DF can be proven or disproven until its revealed by RJ himself.<br /><br />p.s. about Perrin running away from the tinker, I think the wording on that is odd and can be read 2 ways. Read my one and only message board post if you're intrigued and let me know your thoughts (it's entitled &quot;Query about Egwene's Tinker dreams&quot; - catchy, huh?)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 22:01:54
subject: <b>I think Aram might love Perrin but why the reverse?</b>
body:
Perrin is always saying, &quot;Nothing is more important than Faile!&quot;<br />Anyway I thought this was a good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 23:42:01
subject: <b>Uno, doce, trace, quatro, pento??</b>
body:
Wait, no, that should be sinco (sp?)<br /><br />Hey pento, if the theory is pointless, why did you post it?<br /><br />I think the poster brought up some good points.  I've seen the same arguments over and over about aram beign a DF, so somebody put up an answer...anyway, I don't believe that aram is a DF...but it can't be proven either way...it's kind of like the old Verin argument...people tend to believe what they want, and until RJ proves it one way or the other, you're not going to convince anyone.<br /><br />BTW, Kudos to the guy who did Normandred!  I think you may have stumbled (Or carefully plowed through and researched) onto something!  But again, this is like Aram, verin...not gonna know till Jordan says.<br /><br />But again, Congratulations, poster!  Good theory.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid, <br />     May you find water and shade.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael!


created: 2001-12-17 06:18:52
subject: <b>Just wanted to knock your theory a bit</b>
body:
as the other one up today was too perfect.<br /><br />Your reasoning that turning into this blood thirsty killer would eb a good way to blow his cover doesn't make sense. How else precisely do you expect Aram to be able to stay near Perrin? He couldn't be there during battles for definite and if he hadn't taken up the sword, how exactly would he have escaped being a Tinker? His family would have kept hounding him to come back, the only way he could truly break free of them was to to take up the sword.<br /><br />I never really agreed with the theory that he's a DF due to his apparently learning the sword too fast as some people do I suspect. However, in Mat's case at least, he can use the staff that well because the memories he has in his head from other people include at least one person who knew how to fight with it and how to fight well. With Galad he hardly picked up a sword for the first time when he went to the White Tower, he will have trained in Caemlyn.


created: 2001-12-17 09:31:28
subject: <b>Evil Will Win Because Good Is STUPID</b>
body:
Okay, so I've paraphrased from Spaceballs, but the point is that the people in WoT are so incredibly naive and stupid when it comes to spotting the obvious Darkfriends in their midst, with the exception of Rand, who has become paranoid.  Matt and Perrin and those Aes Sedai chicks are all blind to the possible Darkfriend threat.  Most Darkfriends haven't been all that tactful and secretive, either - they operate on the principle of &quot;Hey, stranger over there, I found a sack of gold at the end of this dark alley in the Rahad and it's too much for me to haul away on my own - would you like to go and get some for yourself?  I'll wait here at the entrance with this sword that's dripping blood all over the place and these five big burly guys with cuts all over them&quot;.<br /><br />So in other words, Aram certainly could be a Darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 10:30:52
subject: <b>On the Dream....</b>
body:
The dream with Perrin and Aram running towards a clff could be about the danger of becong too attatched to fighting and losin their humanity. Just as Elyas warns Perrin to put away his axe when he enjoys using, Perrin always worries that living only for Perrin and the sword is not enough for Aram.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 11:14:23
subject: <b>If Aram is a DF he is not the Tinker from SG.</b>
body:
All the DF that where in SG got specific instructions, and a general instruction, which was to kill all three &quot;boys&quot;.<br />Even more they where Compelled to do it.<br />We know that from Carridin (sp?) behavior in Ebu Dar. Sammael told him to ignore Mat, but the minute he left, Carridin ordered all his DF to kill Mat.<br />If Aram was in SG and got the same instructions, he would have behaved the same way, and wouldn't have gone undercover for several months.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 14:19:14
subject: <b>First of all...</b>
body:
...I don't believe everyone's instructions were to kill the three, it doesn't make sense, why weren't they told as a group? Clearly they've been given different tasks, some were no doubt sent to kill them, but if they couldn't be killed, it would make sense to send some to do things like the following: watch them and report what they do, only attempt to kill them if they specifically do something Ishamael didn't want to happen, try to turn events as Ishamael wants etc.<br /><br />Secondly, there must have been one DF sent to Perrin. We haven't seen one yet I think, it's about time we did. The are going to be DF's around him, Aram's more likely than any other we've seen so far I feel.


created: 2001-12-17 16:19:15
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Gay?  Gay men?  Hmmm....that's a thought.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Katiya<br />*Life-Time Supply Available Upon Request*</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 19:04:43
subject: <b>Not Bloody Likely...</b>
body:
that there will be any male-male relationships in WOT. Not only are most men uncomfortable with that, many women are as well. We can't see RJ alienating many more potential buyers, now can we? The whole &quot;pillow friend&quot; thing is just to titilate the younger, more hormonally-driven make readers-female readers would probably care less, and really, what relevance does any of that add. Un-bloody-real.<br />


created: 2001-12-19 02:51:20
subject: <b>no, of course not.</b>
body:
he's made it nine books without even hinting at gay male relationships, why should he start now?  there have been a few offhand comments and thoughts and such implying lesbian relationships, and most likely for the same reasons as stated in one of the posts above.<br /><br />i really do think aram has a thing for perrin (there are waaay too many typical signs), but perrin is most certainly in love with faile.  not sure that i particularly like that potential situation being associated with &quot;doom,&quot; but it'll be interesting to see how it all turns out, regardless.<br /><br />btw: as for whoever mentioned rj not wanting to &quot;alienate&quot; his audience, i'd be offended if you weren't right.  maybe i should be anyway, but i don't feel like putting forth that much effort at the moment. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-19 13:15:07
subject: <b>Aram DF</b>
body:
The post, as well as a few of the comments above, all make interesting points.  My take on the situation is this.   Based on the &quot;..the closer Aram gets to Perrin, the chill of doom grows greater.&quot;, I see as meaning this.  Perrin is of sound mind, and a cool heart.  He loathes bloodshed in all cases except for in situations where the defense of innocent people is involved.  Aram on the other side of the scale, is bloodthirsty.  Aram is seeking vengeance and death, and has gone full circle from his Tua'anthan ways.  (This happens in every day life, drug addicts reforming into straight edge church goers, people who had religion stuffed down their throats their whole life - growing up and losing faith, 180 degree changes do happen, it's a knee jerk reaction some people do to cope with what they feel was a lost part of their life, or a life misspent.)  Aram I thin kis doing that.  The danger is, as Perrin and Aram grow closer, like any two friends, one starts to exhibit the characteristics of the other.  Perrins temper, anger, and battle fury have been steadily growing, and with Aram at his side (and so preoccupied with the safety of Faile) it is only a matter of time before Perrin also begins to throw caution to the wind, and storm into battle seeking revenge and blood.   A spin off on my rationale ties in with others claims that Faile is a DF.  In the event she were, and I'm not saying she is...but play this out with me, if she were.  She need only accuse Perrin of evil or name him a DF and Aram would INSTANTLY draw steel and try to strike down Perrin.   If Perrin and Aram become too close, this unfortunate situation could occur without Perrin even having time to react.  A sudden strike from behind, and the Wolfkin is bathing in his own blood, while a maniacal Aram stands over him.


created: 2002-01-03 19:16:03
subject: <b>gay has been done</b>
body:
I'm not so sure RJ would do it.  But i don't think it would alienate too many people.  We are all hooked lets face it and there is nothing that would make us stop reading it now.  Mercedes Lackey has very sexually free charcters as well as some other authors I have read.  I personally found it interesting to have a story where there was a gay character dippicted as a normal and neccesary main charcter, as the hero even. And aside from that I think fantasy readers are much more likely to accept such things.<br />later <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 08:38:42
subject: <b>About the dream where Perrin runs from a tinker...</b>
body:
it's said that he ran while <i>she</i> called for him to get back.<br /><br />Now, I know that at first sight, it seems as if it were Egwene who called for him, but that doesn't make sense for atleast two reasons.<br /><br />1. We have never, not even once, seen egwene participate conciosly in a prophet-dream. Sure, when in T'A'R she's always aware of what she's doing, but as she dreams, she simple remembers her dreams. Therefor, she must have meant the <i>Tinker</i> was the &quot;she&quot; who called out for Perrin.<br /><br />2. If you care to look closer at the text, the language used indicates that you can interpret it both ways, but it'd be much easier to interpret it as if she refered to the tinker.<br /><br />There. That's my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Rie Bolmdahl</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Rie a'M'hama'cueran<br /><i>Caballien misain ye<br /><br />Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyari</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 02:13:11
subject: <b>Nah..</b>
body:
Dude..Aram is not a Darkfriend..he's a Perrinite..Perrin is good..therefore, Aram is good.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />*The Real Mat Cauthon*<br />*MUDder of mass proportions*<br />*Leader of the Free World*<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-16 12:17:47
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
Yes, you're right,a nd I would like to ask you, is Aram homosexual? I've wondered from time to time. I sort of figured that's where the real danger lay somehow. Also you forgot to mention that Rand also got to be balde master in a comparatively short time, refer Lan;s comments and his hotch-potch training.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 23:50:30
subject: <b>Aram is not gay</b>
body:
As someone said above RJ has made it through nine books and has not even hinted at a male homosexual.  His &quot;pillow friend&quot; thing is usually merely a side thought.  As for Aram being gay and falling for Perrin that is just ridiculous.  Aram sees Perrin as his &quot;Salvation&quot; not as a desired lover.  Perrin let him take a sword when everyone else would surely have made him put it down.  Perrin basically oredered Tam to teach Aram the use of it.  Therefore making Aram able to defend himself.  Aram has attached himself to Perrin cause he sees him as the man who set him up to defend himself.  More like hero worship then attraction.  <br />RJ has no reason to put gay men in there and I for one hope he doesnt cause that is sick and twisted.<br />Gay is not OK.  It is disgusting (Male or Female). <br />That is all


created: 2002-07-04 14:02:11
subject: <b>I don't think he should...</b>
body:
add gay relationships at this point. RJ that is shouldn't and the reason I say this is because of HeartShades comment, &quot;there are way too many obvious signs&quot;.  Obvious signs?  Like what, do all homosexuals get born with a tatoo on their face announcing them as such?  I don't stand against homosexuals in fiction, either in books or tv or anything else, but I do have a problem with the stereotypes that get used.  <br /><br />Personally I don't understand what gives you the idea Aram is gay, is it the bloodlust, hatred of Shadowspawn, or his oath to serve the man who gave him an opportunity for vengence?


created: 2004-05-19 19:50:01
subject: <b>Concerning the gay comments</b>
body:
All right, enough folks.  First of all, I believe the comment in the theory was merely a joke of sorts.  The point of the theory was not to decide whether or not Aram is homosexual.<br />redturtleneck - Keep your opinions to yourself, please.  They're awfully offensive.  I do agree that the relationship of Aram to Perrin is likely hero worship, friendship, nothing more, but you have no call to put judgement on gays.  You are ignorant, if that's how you feel.  It isn't a lifestyle, despite popular belief.  Homosexuals can't help it, and they wouldn't have to if society would just learn to accept them.  Just because you were raised to believe something is &quot;wrong&quot; doesn't mean that it is.<br />Sorry, I'm done.<br />RJ has many strong relationships between males, but nothing so blatant as his talk of &quot;pillow friends&quot; and such, so I think for now the topic should be dropped.  Okay?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-14 14:45:18
subject: <b>About the gay thing</b>
body:
Well in New Spring Suian and Moiraine were supposed to be pillow friends after all...  And there have been other implied lesbian relationships...  But I say Aram and Perrin aren't going to turn out gay for one simple reason.  I'm from South Carolina like RJ, and i know a lot of guys about his age from there.  And there is no way (unless he a lot less old school than i thought)  That RJ would have that little plot twist.


created: 2001-12-17 14:24:08
subject: <b>How</b>
body:
exactly is Aram a man in white?<br /><br />I don't see how Tenobia is any better suited to Galad than Berelain. Besides, RJ needs to get Berelain away from perrin at some point, Galad is the perfect way. Plus Berelain has been arounf Aram a lot and I've seen absolutely nothing between them to suggest that they even like each other.


created: 2001-12-17 17:22:50
subject: <b>If anything...</b>
body:
It seems to me that Aram would be more likely to dislike Berelain rather than fall in love with her. It repeatedly says that Aram is almost equally devoted to Perrin and Faile, and neither of them likes Berelain. All she does is make a mess of their lives, or at least try to, and it's a good bet that Aram knows it. I'm kind of surprised he hasn't cut her throat on the side of the road already. Heh heh...that would be kind of funny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 19:17:27
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with you...I submitted an incredibly similar theory last week...(I'd just read the prologue of Path of Daggers)...I think Galad would be great for Tenobia and vice verse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 21:58:58
subject: <b>But this aint no theory...</b>
body:
Sorry if I come off as rude. This isn't a theory though. There's been nothing in the books to indicate that Galad and Tenobia are fated to meet. The man in white prophecy has Galad as a likely candidate for Berlain and that's really it. There's nothing to give the idea that Tenobia is going to run into Galad anytime soon, especially with her looking for Rand who's nowhere near his half brother at the moment. Put simply this is wishful thinking on where the plot could go. It would be the same thing as posting a teory on how Padan Fain is going to react to Shadar Logoth being destroyed or how the chess game (or what ever it was called) that Moridin was playing in book 8 turned out.<br /><br />   By the way in refference to Berlain and Galad being too different too work as a couple, are you nuts? I think the fact that Galad and Berlain are so different is what makes them a good match. Let's look at some of the couples we've seen:<br /><br />Mat and Tuon- A princess that's very straight laced and stuck up, and a gambling rouge that can't stand royalty and snobs.<br /><br />Rand and Elayne- A princess that's grown up in luxury and has been celebrated for her talents in the power paired with a simple farm boy that has had nothing but trouble since he found out that he can channel.<br /><br />Rand and Min- An intelligent and practical girl that has some very unorthodox opinions gets googly eyed for a slow on the uptake (c'mon Rand can be VERY dense most of the time) and often irrational guy that really leans towards traditional values (i.e. his decision to propose to Aviendha after they lost their virginity together).<br /><br />Rand and Aviendha- A gal who has trained for most of her life to be a warrior and has a very deep pride in her aiel heritage ends up in love with a guy that hasn't had any real combat training in his life until he set off for Tar Valon with Moiraine and starts out totally ignorant of his heritage.<br /><br />Lan and Nynaeve- A cold hearted man that holds his emotions close and doesn't see himself as good for anything but combat falls head over heels for a firestorm woman who makes no secret what her opinion on a given subject is and would prefer living a simpler life.<br /><br />Perrin and Faile- A simple blacksmith that would be content to live in obscurity and wants only the basic needs out've life finds himself married to a gal in the royal blood line of Saldea that wants to see her husband achieve his true potential.<br /><br />   Hey see a pattern here yet? Opposites attract is an axiom taken damn near to its zenith in RJs' realm.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 23:34:21
subject:
<b>Continuing in this thread... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Egeanin and Bayle Domon - A law abiding woman who until lately always obeys her superiors and does the &quot;right thing&quot; for her country, and a smuggler who has an eye out only for profit amd really doesn't care who he trades with<br />Siuan and Gareth - A solid, steady man who serves faithfully and a firey woman who went almost straight to the top and has trouble obeying the woman she practically raised to her former position<br />Moiraine and Thom - A cold Cairhienin Aes Sedai who does what she has to regardless of the cost to her or anyone else, and a man who goes out of his way to help those he barely knows and has a healthy wariness of any Aes Sedai<br />Juilin and Amathera - A stuck-up noble and a man who thinks worse of nobles than they of him, if that is possible<br /><br />Do we have any relationships where the people are similar in WoT?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 15:00:08
subject: <b>Yikes, I think Lord Savaunt is stretching the evidence a little here</b>
body:
For every couple in WoT, just as in real life, there are a lot of similarities and differences.  You, IMNSHO stretched some of the opposites (Rand is dense, HUH?) and ignored a lot of similarities.<br /><br />Rand and Elayne both share a sense of duty above all else.  They expect to be obeyed by those beneath them and understand that their positions requires them to make hard decisions.  They are natural leaders and are quite observant about the people around them.  They are morally conservative.  <br /><br />Rand and Min have a common sense of humor (even though Rand tries to bury his).<br /><br />Lan and Nynaeve share an arrogance.<br /><br />Mat and Tuon share a rebellious spirit.  Both Mat and Tuon are excellent fighters.<br /><br />Perrin and Faile share a devotion to each other and a belief in doing what is right for their people.  They are both intelligent and caring.  They both share a sense of duty.<br /><br />These are just a few counter-examples;  There are many more along with more examples that support your arguments.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 15:06:31
subject: <b>Cool!</b>
body:
I agree that he'd die of apolexy<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/890.gif" />StoneDogAiel<img src="images/personalsmilies/890.gif" /><br />Warder to Bethnei Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Clan Chief of the Hennic Clan of Aiel(15th Clan)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />Celebrating all 10 YEARS of Wotmania! WooHoo!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 21:08:45
subject: <b>Tenobia</b>
body:
Actually when I read what Ethenielle thought Tenobia needed in a man the first person I thought of was Galad.<br /><br />But I think when the Trollocs overrun the Borderlands we may see one or two Kings and Queens facing a very p'd off army of Borderlanders.<br /><br />A noose perhaps maybe Tenobia's fate.


created: 2001-12-20 13:57:11
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
The viewing/ dream says that Berelain will fall head over heals for a man in white, NOT that he will fall in love w/ her, so what difference does it make that they're incompatible?


created: 2001-12-21 14:56:50
subject: <b>At the line, it's Berelain by a prophecy...</b>
body:
I'm totally with Savaunt on this, and have posted an almost identical list before of the opposing qualities of the currently formed couples in the story. The only place where I suggest that Savaunt might have taken a liberty is with Moirane/Thom. Yes, I too believe this will come to pass, but it hasn't yet, has it?<br /><br />Berelain will fall head over heels for a man in white. That the reference is to a whitecloak would be very difficult to disprove. Noone else is referred to as commonly wearing white except for novices in the White Tower. That Galad is the only possible Whitecloak that would catch Berelain's eye is also beyond question. He is ALWAYS identified by females who see him as the most beautiful male they've ever known of. Off topic somewhat, I'm quite convinced that Perrin's rescue party will encounter the Whitecloaks before they catch up with the Shaido, and will join forces, since Galad would NEVER turn away from rescuing ladies in peril, even if he doesn't know that one is his mother.<br /><br />As for the arguments that there are things in common among the couples as well as opposing traits, of course that's always true, and will be so for Galad and Berelain. Notwithstanding their relative individual beauty, they both are excellent administrators and negotiators. But Berelain is bereft of morality, where Galad knows nothing else. A perfect WoT match.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 10:55:41
subject: <b>More Similarities...</b>
body:
Galad - Very High up in the political world<br /> - So is Berelain<br /><br />Galad - Always Does what's right<br />Berelain - Always does what's right for her country<br /><br />And also, although it would be funny if some guy became a novice ( and started to wear white ) Chances are that viewing ( One of Mins things wasn't it? ) Was talking About Galad...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 13:43:00
subject: <b>Galad and Tenobia</b>
body:
I can see what she would find interesting about him, as Talamnes said, but I'm unable to come up with any reason that Galad would be interestd in Tenobia, beyond that she has nice eyes and a well rounded bosom. Personality-wise, she hasn't got much going for her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i> &quot;Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.&quot; </i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-30 22:33:30
subject: <b>the man in white</b>
body:
Okay perhaps there haven't been any direct foreshadowings of Tenobia and Galad meeting, but there haven't been any of Galad and Berelain meeting either. In the case of the man in white, there are a lot of characters in this book who only wear white... for example the Seanchan servants/slaves, Whitecloaks, gai'shan (who says Berelain can't fall for one of them, perhaps one of the 'wetlander' gai'shan captured by the Shaido? Particularly one of Sevana's, who tend to be high ranking?). As for the part about Aram, that was more just to get her 'tied up'... Just because the man wears white doesn't mean he's Galad. And Galad and Tenobia are quite the opposites as well, and I think any man would have apoplexy!


created: 2002-03-07 12:56:49
subject: <b>Berlain like good guys</b>
body:
See when they are in the stone of tear Berlain is coming onto Perrin but mat Comes onto her and she says &quot;to much like me&quot;.<br /><br />I think she (like Mat) likes the chase.<br /><br />Also getting Galhad to pair up with Berlain get rid of the 3rd wheel in the Egewen love thing and frees Gywan to love her without guilt.


created: 2002-08-04 22:55:48
subject: <b>I side with you</b>
body:
I finished Winter's Heart last week for the first time.  I was going back through them all to refresh myself.  But in WH RJ put's quite a bit o emphasis on Tenobia not being married for me to call it incidental.  What I believe will happen is Perrin will have a run in with Galad.  After they catch Tallanvor.  They will have an Ashan`man make a gate way to Camelyn.  Elayne will talk with Galad and because of Galad's word to Elayne she allows them to help her in Camelyn before the &quot;Army&quot; of 5000 get there.  Somewhere in the fray Tenobia will meet Galad and go googoo over him like evey other woman only this time it will be reciprocated.  Galad does not trust Rand the same as Tenobia currently but later they will become united behind him.  I have a strong feeling that King Lan will be a big help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 04:26:25
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
I would love to see somebody dance the sa'sara for Galad, I think it would be one of the funnier parts of the whole series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 04:58:08
subject: <b>Sa'sara not bad</b>
body:
... just a little risque. But they'd have to be married before *Galad* would agree to such a thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 02:39:59
subject: <b>There is one more problem...</b>
body:
We all know from one of Min's viewings that Perrin is associated with Saldaea's crown, and most agree that he will become king of Saldaea through Faile.<br /><br />For that to happen, Tenobia must lose the crown either by giving it up, or by dying (or perhaps by being removed by someone else).<br /><br />In both of these cases, it is most likely that she will not end up with Galad. So that also works against this theory.<br /><br /><br />Also, Berelain is connected with a man in white, but there is no way that she would end up with someone who couldn't help her country, so servants are ruled out (so is Aram, but he isn't in white anyway).<br /><br />I suspect that it may be a reference to a gaishain, since they get to put off their white later, and if the Aiel were supporting Mayene, Berelain would be happy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 16:04:01
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Am I first? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
You know, it could be just remotely possible that Tinkers are just good metalsmiths....... and , the Tinker reluctance to enter cities probably doesn't extend so far as in not wanting to go to Tar Valon, because if their young women are going there to learn to be Aes Sedai, then they have to give up being Tinkers anyway. <br />Besides, wouldn't some Aes Sedai have noticed by now if a bunch of Tinker woman could channel? Like Verin or Alanna, when they were in the Two Rivers in TSR, and that whole bunch of Tinker refugees was in Emond's Field with them? <br />And Ila's face could just be because she was actually *gasp* young... <br />Very original theory, though, and those questions about what DOES happen with Tinker channelers are very interesting. I myself have no clue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 17:11:51
subject: <b>Hmm...good thoughts...</b>
body:
I did wonder how Tnikers could ever mend anything when they never seemed to have any serious metalwork tools or similar. You would think Perrin would mention it if he saw them. Him being the blacksmith that he is...<br /><br />Besides it seems unlikely that they can only set up a temporary forge because they move around so much but they can fix pots better than the professionals who have a permanent work of it. Then again they might have secret techniques that make their temporary forges more effective than others. (Maybe playing around all night makes them better workers during the day. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />They could be channelers. I don't think Verin or Alanna would mention it because tinkers follow the way of the leaf and Aes Sedai have to be willing to fight. Besides, they might be like the Aiel and train their daughters in the use of the one power so few or none will die off. Just a thought. Then again they could be another of the Aes Sedai &quot;secrets&quot; like the Kin. <br /><br />I guess this theory is just another side question that no one has thought about yet. Who knows what role RJ will have for Tinkers in the future. RAFO I guess...<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 10:59:28
subject: <b>The Male Channelers...</b>
body:
... Are probably the ones that colour co ordinate the paints for decorating purposes... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 12:20:59
subject: <b>Imposable</b>
body:
No Aes Sedai would think twice about taking a Tinker to the Tower.  The second an Aes Sedai walked into a Tinker camp they would be able to sence any woman able to chanel.  They would also see the glow around Tinkers when they channel.  It would not be possable to keep chaneling a secret from the Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-22 12:48:13
subject: <b>Raserei...</b>
body:
...you left out that the Tinker channelers use the OP to mend the pots which Perrin certainly does not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />By the way, becoming AS does not necessarily violate the Way of the Leaf. On the contrary, the Three Oaths point into that direction, of course only concerning the use of the OP. And there is still the parallel to the Sea Folk: Tinkers simply avoid AS as they avoid nearly all people...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-23 08:08:37
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
Male channelers might do harm to someone once and then they'd get cast out by the community and they'd find some far off place to die or whatever.<br /><br />As for the female channelers, well, they may not have much problems channeling because surrender is in their nature. They'll completely submit to saidin and that would be that. Maybe that's why there couldn't be any male channelers. They'd also surrender to saidin. And well, you all know the consequences of that...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-23 16:51:56
subject: <b>Male Tinker Channelers</b>
body:
I think that Fenrar is most likely right about the males, but here's a very strange idea:  I wouldn't be surprised if Tinkers know how to keep male channelers from doing any harm. I know back in the AoL they didn't, but here's the basis of my thought -- the Tinkers are so ingrained in the Way of the Leaf that when their male channelers go mad, they don't hurt anybody. They are still mad, but I imagine that the environment among the Tinkers is the emotional equivalent of a padded cell for the madmen. They are rendered relatively harmless. <br /><br />Just a wild idea, no real backing for it, but if anyone knows how to make insane people sane again, I think it would be the Tinkers. <br /><br />Oh, and about the women getting spotted by Verin and others: I'm willing to bet the Sea Folk gave the gift of passage to Aes Sedai before Nynaeve and Elayne, yet no one seemed to know about the Windfinders. I suspect that when Aes Sedai show up, Windfinders and Tinker channelers simply stay out of their way. The only reason the Windfinder on Nynaeve and Elayne's ship channeled was because those two were on &quot;the Coramoor's errand.&quot; Not that they were, but the Sea Folk thought they were. Predictably, the Coramoor took priority.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-23 23:38:06
subject: <b>Pot mending</b>
body:
Does WoT have steel yet? I never really considered that the Tinkers mend better than anyone else. That's interesting. Unless they could channel (I suppose it's *possible* that none are able to; they're very inbred communities, so if none of the original Tinkers could channel, it would take a mutation) or they knew of a different metal medium, like steel...<br /><br />But I don't think even a Tinker could keep an insane channeler non-violent. Doesn't it seem like the channeling in such types just gets completely out of control? Like the BF ter'angreal that shoots balefire in all directions. Insane channelers, in some cases, probably have no idea that they're about to do something violent until they *do* it... Rand's gotten to that point a few times (thinking more along the lines of trying to break the seals or the thought that he has to kill Taim, but I'm sure there are more).<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-12-24 23:31:43
subject: <b>Perrin and the Tinkers</b>
body:
Since everyone knows that Raserei is RJ (Well, that's what I've heard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ), I think he just hinted to us that Perrin will be making heartstone. Maybe he'll learn how from Aram. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-25 12:52:03
subject: <b>Males</b>
body:
I always wanted to ask this question, if males go mad from channeling then why do they allways kill people, if i went mad i would go naked on the street, so i find it very odd that all the male channelers kill people...


created: 2001-12-26 15:33:46
subject: <b>Because...</b>
body:
Because they don't have the same degree of control over it anymore. Remember that part where Rand uses Callandor?<br />So they'll still try to channel, but lose the ability to completely control everything they do, thus killing everyone.<br />And don't ask &quot;why are they only killing everyone they love?&quot; Cause they don't. Those are just the ones that are remembered in the madness and those are also the ones most likely to be around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 03:50:38
subject: <b>jenn aiel descendants</b>
body:
okay, i'm not really sure of this so don't detonate a hand grenade, but aren't tinkers descendants of the jenn aiel? so maybe some of them are blessed with the ability to channel like some of the Wise Ones, thus explaining the pots phenomenon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Arwen Sedai of the Blue Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 17:50:51
subject: <b>Not that it matters</b>
body:
But are there any Tinker's left?  The last I remember Aram's whole tribe was killed and he was cast out.  I wouldn't consider him a Tinker anymore.  This would also go with &quot;only a remnant of a remnant shall remain&quot;.  The Tinker's being a remnant of the Jenn Aiel and the current Aiel being a remnant of the Tinkers.  So my theory is that Tinkers cannot channel because they are all dead.8P


created: 2001-12-27 21:14:48
subject: <b>but</b>
body:
when eggy was with them in eotw, wouldnt she have sensed channeling or seomthing. around aes sedai they'd be careful, right?  but they didnt know eggy was in training.<br /><br />but what DO they do with them?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 12:39:34
subject: <b>&quot;Eggy&quot; was still in training...</b>
body:
Which would explain why she didn't sense it. She could hardly do anything with the Power at that time, so the sense of another woman being able to channel would easily be disregarded as a cold or tiredness (remember, they'd been on the run almost all day.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 15:53:37
subject: <b>But the Mathematical Possibilities....</b>
body:
Ok,<br /><br />Lets just look at this.<br /><br />RJ says in the guide that about 2-3% of the population could channel in the age of legends.  Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that that number hasn't changed (even though we know that with the red ajah limiting the gene pool the number of channelers is decreasing).<br /><br />Now, there aren't any figures as to the number of Tinkers, but let's assume that it may be as high as the number of channelers, 2-3% of the total population.<br /><br />3% of 3% would be .09%, or 1 in 1000.  That means that, in order for the Tinkers to be One Power Pot Fixers, they would need to be trained by another of the Pot Fixers.  The Tinkers do not have a structural society that allows them to locate and train with another person that may be thousands of miles away.  The very nature of a nomadic life prevents this from happening.  Not to mention the fact that the original Pot Fixer would have to first find the channeler and teach them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 17:04:29
subject: <b>Another point</b>
body:
Nice idea Xoe!<br /><br />I thought about it in another way. The Aes Sedai where thinking they where bringing the abillity to channel out of the population because the get no Babys. <br /><br />If the tinkers have just no one who could channel, they will never get one by birth. And those wich goes to the tinkers by theire one just are`nt able to channel. <br /><br />Those wich are born with the ability could just die (3 of 4)  And those woh could learn it just didnt know it<br /><br />the next point:<br />If Tinkers could Channel, they could build a Wall by Aire and hide behind!!!!  That would couse no harm for them and no for the others!!!!<br /><br />And :-) Theire must be other tinkers in the World of the Wheel of time!!!!<br />Moiraine had one Eyes and Eares???  by them<br /><br />P.s.  sorry.... no native speaker. :-)<br /><br /><br />Marovin Kalmora<br />Wolfbrother<br /><br />


created: 2001-12-29 08:15:19
subject: <b>Marovin...</b>
body:
...being able to channel does not necessarily mean that they know all weaves...just think of the knowledge the Sea Folk have and most of the Tower AS do not, or they other way round. Same with the Aiel channelers...So, as the Way of the Leaf also means no resistance against attacks as Arams father told Perrin, a defensive wall of Air would be a violation against the Way and is thus an unknown weave...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-29 18:36:32
subject: <b>Violance against the way.....</b>
body:
violance against the way would be to build a rope of bodys to save the children too.... or not.??? :-)<br /><br />The biggest differnce was that the Aile and the seefolk waeves in other ways .... not compleatly diffrent diffrent things....<br />Marovin Kalmora


created: 2001-12-30 22:31:04
subject: <b>hmmm mesa like</b>
body:
It was a good idea none the the less people can belive what they want but i'm on your side!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> I am SSJ Jozan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> swords are awesome <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of good books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Lini is the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Cookies and cartoons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Masema <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-02 10:32:24
subject: <b>Tinkers Are Harmless Stoners</b>
body:
Let's face it.  The Tinkers are in the books just so that Robert Jordan can say there are hidden drug references in his books.  These people are always going on and on about pot(s), follow something called &quot;The Way of the Leaf&quot; and are really mellow all the time.  Their clothes are funky and they wander the earth looking for the words to that Bob Marley song they used to sing while toking.<br /><br />So just chill on the Tinkers - they're okay.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-02 10:55:41
subject: <b>keeping talents hidden</b>
body:
I see two possibilities. one is that the tinker women could be capable of channeling and are able to hide this ability the way the forsaken could.  no one would really be able to know what the tinkers know because of their reluctance to associate with the outside world.  perhaps they know even more of the age of legend abilities. <br /><br />secondly, perhaps they hide it unconsciously.  as a wilder can try to explain or deny their abilities without admitting the ability to channel, is it possible that they are so submersed in the way of the leaf that they have developed a way to hide the ability to channel completely hidden withing themselves.<br /><br />just a thought.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">husband of pam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />father of matthew <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />child of the King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 09:10:40
subject: <b>Why haven't anyone thought of this???</b>
body:
Aram can channel!!!<br />That's why he's so friggin' mad!<br /><br />Oh, no, this has <i>never</i> been said before.....<br /><br />but more seriously...<br /><br />I would think that the Tinkers can channel.<br />Every other society in WoT-world has channelers,<br />so why would the Tinkers be an exception?<br /><br />And, as stated by others before me,<br />the Aiel takes care of all their channelers.<br />There's no reason to why the Tinkers wouldn't be able to do the same.<br /><br /><br />A thought I had concerning this, though without any evidence as of yet:<br /><br />Maybe, the strongest female channeler is always the Mahdis wife. That would be an excellent way for the TInkers to appoint their Mahdi. (or worse, the strongest <i>male</i> channelers <i>becomes</i> the Mahdi. but that's not very likley, unless the tinkers know of a way to keep the taint away.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Rie Bolmdahl</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Rie a'M'hama'cueran<br /><i>Caballien misain ye<br /><br />Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyari</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 21:10:20
subject: <b>My Theory UpDae</b>
body:
Both Female tinkers that were discribed<br />Ila - A head taller than Raen, plump and with grey hair.  Yet smooth-cheeked. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br />Leya - Her hair contined a lot of grey, she was not young, but her face had few lines. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />When two woman in two seperate books described in a way that implies channeling that is no coincidanse (not with RJ around)<br /><br />as for Xoe's mathematical possibilitys if 2% of the Population can channel then 2% of the tinkers will cannel<br /><br />becomin AS Violets The way because tinkers believe that citys are violent and we know that Tar Valon is Violent Extreamly so<br /><br />male channelers probebly kill themselfes because that what the Aiel did when the were still peacful<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> SURAVYE NINTO MANSHIMA TAISH'ITE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> MNDE MUAGHDE AES SEDAI MISAIN YE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> May you find good hunting, and shes to bring you many cubs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Zedrick Al'Stone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 09:11:00
subject: <b>However...</b>
body:
Someone posted above that the Tinkers are a remnant of the Jenn Aiel...However, that is not true.  They abandoned the task given them by the AS even if they did hold on to The Way of the Leaf.  The Jenn were the only Aiel to do both...Stay on task &amp; Keep the WAY.<br /><br />Just a small difference but it explains why the Clans refer to them as The Lost Ones.<br /><br />;D


created: 2002-10-23 07:37:38
subject: <b>Well done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Good thinking ! <br />Tinkers channeling could also reveal another lost Talent -Alignin the Matrix ,making metals harder,<br />hence pots being harder and better than new ...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> kicks gaidin ass ... hehehe


created: 2002-11-12 13:52:06
subject: <b>Virtually no Channellers</b>
body:
People who can channel are not likely to be the sort of people who would join the Tinkers and follow the Way. So the percentage of channellers among the Tinkers over 3000 years has steadily decreased. It is nothing like the percentages among the general population. It's basically been bred out of them.<br />And grey hair with a smooth face would imply, not just a channeller, who would look young, but an Oath-Bound channeller. Do you think the Tinker women swear on a binder?<br /><br />This is another example of taking any two random references (pots and gray hair!) and inventing a theory.<br /><br />The only good point is the drug thing. That was funny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-17 15:21:59
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Heatrstone has bin made... egwene, remember??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-03 13:41:00
subject: <b>yeh</b>
body:
It is a given that there are tinkers who can channel. there is are channelers born in every settled part of the planet of every ethnic background. SO, if you take that as an obvious fact(it is), then where are they? if they are not in the tower then they are probably still with their people. Tinker channelers CAN, thats rite CAN easily stay hidden among there people. Think about it, they are always moving around and spend most of there time away from people, including AS. Also if the &quot;senior&quot; channelers among the tinkers pass down their knoledge of basic channeling skills then that would explain why tinkers are not blowing themselvs up all the time. And duh, AS have to be close to someone to find out whether they can channel. just stay in the damn wagon. DUH (this should be obvious if AS can hide in seanchen controlled cities)<br /><br />masrith ta-daishar<br />      sexiest man on earth<br /><br />    P.S. hell yeah the tinkers toke!!!


