# w_comment

created: 2002-06-29 18:00:43
subject: <b>Am I the only one who believes that...</b>
body:
Am I the only one who believes that... twice dawns the day refers to two separate days.  (It is a poetic expression.) Rand is fated to die twice for instance.  (Although I believe he will survive the second shedding.)  <br /><br />I must be.  The only theories that seem to make through are those in which there are 2 'dawns' on the same day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 20:02:58
subject: <b>RabidWombat...</b>
body:
Look at my list of possible theories.<br /><br />Specifically: Rand is Resurrected.<br /><br />There is a theory that Nynaeve will, in something that may insult some strong Christian believers, heal Rand when he is three days dead (a quote says something like &quot;she won't be happy until she's Healed somebody three days dead).  He then lives happily ever after, croaks, and that's his next death.  So yes, your way makes sense too.<br /><br />As for the super volcano -<br /><br />Yes, it can happen.  It doesn't often, such cataclysmic events have far reaching effects on life and if it happenned often, humans couldn't exist.  However, I call your attention to the explosion of Thera.<br /><br />A Greek island called Thera exploded due to a volcano eruption a few thousand years ago.  It darkened the sky for days (was it three?  I don't remember) in Egypt, then a largish empire as ancient standards go.  It caused huge tidal waves and if Greek mythology is to be believed, heralded the birth of the Goddess Athena, who &quot;sprang full-formed from the head of Zeus&quot;.  Ouch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />.  Male childbirth SUCKS! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />...Off topic, some also theorise that this is the real basis for Plato's Atlantis, it fits well - an advanced (for the time) island nation who's homeland was literally sunk by a natural cataclysm.  It is even between Asia and Africa, and the Greek word &quot;between&quot; is just one letter different from &quot;bigger than&quot;, so Atlantis might not be a lost enormous continent but instead a lost small island right where Thera was.<br /><br />Or, like me, you can choose Sanity's path and say that Plato made it up as fiction to prove his philosophical points.<br /><br />Oh, and BTW, the Volcano at Thera wasn't the greatest cataclysmic eruption of all time...just of recorded history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 23:56:22
subject: <b>You know...</b>
body:
I've heard theories explaining most of the plaugues Moses bestowed upon Egypt as possibly having been caused by an erupting volcano in the Med some where. (Ya, if I really cared, I'd find the name, and maybe I'm sloppy for not, but who cares) Anyway, the theory suggests that the darkening of the skys has from the ash, the locust and stuff from animals fleeing, the Nile turning to blood was from sedimentation, and the Red Sea parting because of a terrific tidal wave.<br /><br />I mention this because of RJ's propensity to relate to religous beliefs and ideals. The whole Rand coming back to life after three days idea, and this theory, to me, have some religious overtones. If they're true, anyway.<br /><br />Peace, out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 17:52:29
subject: <b>One Techinicality</b>
body:
The ash from an eruption big enough to cover Shayol Ghul isn't going to go away in a day, let alone a week.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />O<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><b><i>DREADNAULT</i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />O<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Stormtrooper of the <b><i>CHOSEN</i></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 12:51:52
subject: <b>Good point Dreadnaught</b>
body:
That's true, under natural forces, but our heroes have the advantage of that One Power thing that they just may use to clear up the ash if it comes down to that.<br /><br />While I can't agree with this theory in the sense that &quot;what you said will happen&quot; since we just really have <i>no</i> clue, I like the theory and am glad you searched out those quotes about Dragonmount being a volcano.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 01:47:48
subject: <b>nice thought</b>
body:
when i first saw the title, i liked the idea, and had a really cool idea for a book-cover for the last WOT book (No. 13 anyone??)<br /><br />Rand, holding callandor, glowing heaps. Fain + Moridin (shaidar haran?) either side, With a nice little Dragon MOunt Erupting behind Him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Who knows, maybe he'll erupt DM and bury SG the DO and all the forsaken under piles of ash?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-06 18:24:35
subject: <b>The Shadow at Noon</b>
body:
I seem to remember that Shienaran welcome &quot;Against what do we guard? The shadow at noon.&quot;<br /><br />I remember reading somewhere early on in the series that the Shadow was strongest at noon then at any other time of the day.  I think that's what the welcome is about, not Dragonmount erupting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Earner of the honoured Third name<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> A Queen's Man to the last <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Believer that Bela is the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 20:12:47
subject: <b>cool</b>
body:
cool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> i never thought of dragonmount being a volcano, great idea <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===========================<br />The cynics are right nine times out of ten.<br />HENRY MENCKEN<br />Funny how just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does.<br />DOUGLAS ADAMS<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I attempt to make everyone&#8217;s day a little happier. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-22 16:22:29
subject: <b>&quot;The shadow at noon&quot;</b>
body:
Well, this Shienaran welcome is lot easier to explain by using a very obvious bit of knowledge and abstract way of thinking. &quot;The shadow at noon&quot;. Normally there are no shadows at noon. So when there are shadows at noon, the Shadow itself must be very strong. &quot;The shadow at noon&quot; is just a way to describe the situation when the Shadow is much stronger than it normally is.<br /><br />And to go even further, isn't the Shadow probably extremely strong during the Tarmon Gaidon, the last battle between Light and Shadow. (At least the last during this turning of the Wheel).


created: 2002-11-06 16:33:41
subject: <b>Totally Agree</b>
body:
I totally agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Don't worry if you aren't the best.... just know that I am.<br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 02:38:14
subject: <b>Shayol Ghul and Dragonmount</b>
body:
Forgive me if I make a fool of myself, but from what I've read it seems both Dragonmount and Shayol Ghul are volcanoes. It would make sense if they both erupted on the day of TG. It would certainly darken the sky in both Tar Valon and SG. Plus, each mountain signifies either the DO or LTT... *shrug* Make of it what you will.


created: 2002-12-30 17:34:59
subject: <b>i knoooooow about volcanooooooes</b>
body:
if anyone wants to know about volcanoes, thermal hotspots etc, go read Santorini by Alistair MacLean<br /><br />anyway - the comment about Thera aka Santorini was totally on the ball. the Santorini explosion may have rolled back the red sea (dead sea? i forget) for Moses, buried Atlantis etc<br /><br />not sure what this has to do with dragonmount but there you go


created: 2003-01-15 11:38:09
subject: <b>Volcano</b>
body:
Hey maybe it's a volcano <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-09 00:06:43
subject: <b>Dragonmount's a volcano?</b>
body:
I thought that was obvious.  I mean it was created by a flow of lava from the core of the Earth....what else COULD it have been.  <br /><br />Still....great theory.  I agree, and suspect that RJ might too <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Let my life be more,<br />Than a bullet to settle an old score.<br />Let my life have meaning,<br />Beyond my heart screaming for more.<br />When the blood hits the floor.</i><br /><font color="white">dots...</font><img src="images/personalsmilies/16111.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 03:06:49
subject: <b>You're right about &quot;shadow&quot; meaning an actual shadow, I would say.</b>
body:
The word &quot;shadow&quot; when the Aes Sedai use it isn't capitalized. Therefore, I'm inclined to beleive that what said was right. I mean, I agree with the theory anyway, but that just adds to it, I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-16 09:20:53
subject: <b>volcanoes</b>
body:
I always thoguht it kind of obvious that Dragonmount was a volcanoe, just nevere even thoguht about it. That riddle quote thoguh seems to definately suggest there is signifigance to it. I still don't neccesarily beleive it'll be the twice dawns the day. however I can see the sky turning black and the volcanoes erptuing and such, with all the last battle taking palce under a shroud of darkness, then once TG is one, the shroud lfits and the sun shines upon the world again. It would be the dramatic way to end it, althoguht i think a bit cliche


created: 2003-08-04 14:57:21
subject: <b>Ash</b>
body:
For all those of you laughing about the idea that ash going all the way to Shayol Ghul, Thera isn't the only example.  When Mt. Saint Helens exploded, Ash covered about a third of the US and a large chunk of Canada for a couple weeks.  Didnt' totally block out the sun, but it really messed things up.  Considering that the books say that Dragonmount is so big that people get about halfway up before not being about to breath (so we're talking about the size of Mt. Everest or higher) if the whole thing exploded in the same method that Mt. Saint Helens did, there would be SEVERAL (possibly even twenty) times the ash.  This means MORE sun-blotting action, and WAY MORE distance.  The main thing about this theory, though, is that volcanoes that explode this way yield very little lava.  (Although I guarantee you that the ash alone would bury Tar Valon like Pompeii.)<br /><br />In any case.  There ya go.  Volcanoes that are primarily ash cones are not only deadly, but they have a big effect on the world for thousands of miles around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Stephen Baynham<br /><br />&quot;I would rather die than be dishonored.&quot;<br /><br />Trolloc Wars Mod Wolfbrother<br />http://www.wc3modforge.com/tw</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-08 22:31:20
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I agree with your theory except for one minor thing..... who says that the Last Battle must be faught at Shayol Ghul? Could it not be at Tar Valon? I mean Tar Valon is the center of Randland practically! but other than that minor detail good theory


created: 2003-11-03 16:23:11
subject: <b>something non-note worthy.......</b>
body:
Thank the light I'm not the only one that thought DM was a volcano! I thought it was pretty obvious, myself, but ya never know.....<br />I think this theory is actually pretty sound, but as RJ says...<br />RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~Brandi Sedai~*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;A Cairhienin AND an Aes Sedai? There could be no worse combination.&quot; - Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-20 20:09:05
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
not a bad idea. But i think you spent too much time trying to prove that Dragonmount is a volcno and not enough time proving that it's what the profecies are talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-22 01:54:15
subject: <b>Thera - Santorini</b>
body:
I know this is off subject a little but I just wanted to point out something.<br />Thera(Santorini) eruption could not have caused the Red Sea to part. <br /><br />1. Thera (Santorini) is in the Mediterranean Sea.<br />2. The Res Sea was not connected to the Mediterranean Sea until the Suez canal was built.<br /><br />I guess I should comment on the theory.<br />I don't think &quot;Twice dawns the day&quot; is in referance to Dragonmount erupting.<br /><br /><br />Death to all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 11:43:58
subject: <b>Dhaylin Shadow at Noon</b>
body:
The reference you're referring to was made Liandrin in TGH, if I correctly guage what you're talking about.  But, she said the Shadow was strongest at dawn and sunset.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-10 09:40:34
subject: <b>Vocanoes Suck</b>
body:
I just wanted to post a comment to all you people who have trouble believing a volcano's eruption could cover the earth.  When a volcano erupts, it sends smoke, ash, and debree miles (dozens of miles) into the sky, which spreads out for thousands of miles.  When Mount Kilimanjaro last erupted a hundred thousand years ago, the sky over the *entire world* was blackened for *years*, causing one of earth's largest periods of extinctions.  When a volcano erupts with enough force, believe me, *everyone in the world* knows about it.  <br /><br /><br />I like the theory, it's one that I had pondered, but your reading into Vandene and Moraine's argument is excellent deduction.  <br /><br />Cheers!<br />


created: 2004-06-03 19:18:24
subject: <b>Erupting</b>
body:
It very well could be a posibility but you also have to think about what Egwene wants to do to The White Tower. She wants to turn it all, or so I assume, to cuendillar. That would make the tower indestructable. I can't imagine the point of going all that way just to make the chain across the river cuendillar. I know that's the main form of transportation of the Seanchan but that would only hinder them. They can always fly in. So maybe he is setting the mountain up to blow and having Egwene save it without really knowing what she is saving it from.


created: 2004-06-12 10:46:14
subject: <b>The parallels to LoTR</b>
body:
Agree with previous poster who postulates TG doesn't necessarily have to be at SG.  There are so many parallels between WoT and LoTR that I think of Dragonmount and SG as the 2 towers.  Not in the sense that they're the 2 bastions of evil but that they, with TV (Minas Tirith) are focal points.  <br /><br />I don't know that I agree that Dragonmount erupting is the prophecised 2 dawns.  But, I think something momentus will happen on the slopes of DM during TG.  Like the last battles in LoTR before the black gates to distract from the true mission; I think the battle at TV and DM will be partly distraction from some sort of 'last stroke' by Rand at SG.<br /><br />I'm not very good at theorizing so don't hurt me too much.


created: 2004-07-24 09:50:18
subject: <b>stuff i think</b>
body:
rabid wombat:  nynaeve bringing rand back to life on &quot;the third day&quot; wouldn't insult Christians at all.  it's actually kinda cool that Jordan has so many parallels witht he bible.  i like it.  stuffy, religious people who are insecure in what they believe would be bothered by it.  but those are the same people who blow up abortion clinics, so they are already crazy.  heh heh heh.  i know that Jesus is real and that the Bible is real, and it wouldn't bother me one bit if nynaeve brought rand back on the third day.  in any case, i believe that she is going to discover how to heal death.  i mean, they mention it so much that it HAS to be something that will happen, no?<br /><br />anyway, and i don't rememberwho was talking about egwene not &quot;going all that way just to turn the chains to cuendillar&quot;  but, uh, that's exactly what she was doing.  gareth knew that the only way to siege tar valon, was to block the port so that they would be an island in truth.  she didn't want to destroy it, so instead she thought of turning the chains to cuendillar, so that the ports gates wouldn't be able to be opened.  it was an attempt at a 'peaceful siege' if such a thing exists.<br /><br />anyway, i also took for granted that dragonmount was a volcano.  but i never thought twice about it's eventual eruption.  personally, i hope the theory is way off.... that ALL the theories are way off, and that Jordan shocks us to silence with the real ending.  wouldn't that be something.<br /><br />what would we do with our free time......<br /><br />we would HAVE free time.....<br /><br />DANG!<br /><br />i've been 'waiting for the next book' since i was 14.<br />i'm 27 now, and i am still 'waiting for the next book'<br /><br />it's gonna be wierd when the series ends.<br /><br />okay, later.


created: 2005-01-22 22:35:45
subject: <b>....that would be scary....</b>
body:
so what will eventually cause the volcano(s) to erupt? DO, Rand, lots of channeling, pure chance?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-25 22:08:40
subject: <b>I've always thought DM was a Volcanoe</b>
body:
Isn't it obvious?<br /><br />Anyway, good theory, interesting to think dragonmount will erupt.<br /><br />Personally, though, i think too that Jordan will end the series in such an unexpected way we will have never known what hit us.<br /><br />Im for, the calendar gets screwed up(doubledawn) and rand gets a papercut (blood on the rocks)<br /><br /><br />wait a second, 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul'? sounds to me like the last battle will <i>definitely</i> be at Shayol Ghul. not to say DM cant make ash there, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-06 01:12:45
subject: <b>Volcanic Eruption Possible</b>
body:
I have read several posts in response to the original that discount the possibility of a volcanic eruption covering that much of the sky.  Though I have no idea if the original theory will prove itself correct, I can say that there are indeed more than a few instances massive volcanic eruptions that have covered thousands of square kilometers.<br /><br />Though I have no point of reference (i.e. a map scale) to work with, SG looks to be approx. 2000-3000km away from .  If the eruption of DM does occur with sufficient ferocity (and  believe me -- there have been enormous eruptions in Earth's relative recent past) its' ash-flow could be caught in a jet- stream and spread thousands of kilometers and easily block out the sun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.&quot;<br />    J. R. R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring, 1954<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-19 16:57:56
subject: <b>Ah ha</b>
body:
Well for the next age to commence the world has to be broken , and the greatest city in the world needs to be destroyed. I don't know about you but Lava rushing down and engulfing Tar VAlon's walls will be so cool. This theory is also helped with all the &quot;ash in the winds&quot; quotes in KOD, and the constant appearances of clouds over Dragonmount.<br /><br />  And even better to help his twice dawns the day thing, book 12 is under construction of MEmory of Light, maybe the fact that Ash covers the sky?


created: 2005-12-30 01:57:22
subject: <b>the breaking of the world</b>
body:
why is everyone assuming that the next breaking of the world will be a physical-geological breaking?  <br /><br />Rand is already breaking the world polically and spiritually.<br /><br />Breaking sociatial minds can be just as catastophic and breaking mountains


created: 2006-01-02 20:55:16
subject: <b>shadow at noon</b>
body:
At noon there are virtually no shadows.  They guard against the only shadow that is present at noon.  It is just another name for the Shadow.  In fact the Shadow could be a simplified version, the capital to indicate that they mean the &quot;shadow at noon.&quot;  Also the term &quot;the Shadow&quot; probably originated with the blackness marking the dark one's original release, in time this was linked to the dark one, and then spread to include Aginor's creations.


created: 2006-07-10 07:11:59
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
forgive me if im a fool for it, but has it ever actually been writen that the last battle will be a actual battle, like pyhysical?


created: 2006-11-21 12:27:13
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
Vhob, she couldn't turn the whole tower to cuendillar, because the tower is made of stone, not iron.<br /><br />I'd never before thought that the &quot;shadow at noon&quot; could be linked to the Last Battle.  However, Rand does have many parallels with Jesus.  The Bible says that Jesus died at noon (the 6th hour) and immediately the sky was darkened for 3 hours.  I would not be surprised in the least if the sky going dark and Rand's death both occur at noon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-29 10:48:04
subject: <b>resurrection, TV</b>
body:
1.Tar Valon<br />i think the DM will erupt also, as Elaida is a powerhungy fool.  the ajah's are at each others throats, an Elaida is building her own palace, so, as the corruption of Tar Valon grows, i can definatly believe that Tar Valon will be destroyed.<br /><br />2. Rand<br />I believe that Rand will die at TG, an that it will take place in either the palace at Cairhien, or TV, as that is what Egwene saw when she went thru the rings at TV to pass the accepted's test in book 2, Rand trapped under a beam, and is holding the madness at bay, so he cant move the beam himself.  i also think he will be resurrected because when he first slept w/ elayne, min foretold that she would be pregnant w/ twins, an that aviendha would have 4 kids by him. his blood on the rocks of SG shows that he will die, but w/ only 1 book left, unless he uses some One Power thing to make super sperm, it would be kinda hard for him to father that many children w/ Aviendha.<br /><br />well...thats my thoughts....might be wrong...just might me right tho....


created: 2007-04-29 20:44:32
subject: <b>uhh</b>
body:
I think I just may have to agree with you.  I will now quote from Liar Liar &quot;You are good, you are very good.&quot;


created: 2008-01-24 17:07:40
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I like how this works out, but I don't think that Dragonmount is a volcano.  I think it has something to do with the Dark One's MOLTEN MAGMA prison, as seen by Moggy, but I do like the way it works out.  I just dont really see it, that would be too sci-fi for RJ.


created: 2008-07-22 17:00:21
subject: <b>dragonmount erupts</b>
body:
i like this <br />definate (Y) from me <br />in support of this theory u kno all the jesus - rand parallels <br />when jesus was crucified a large 'cloud' went over and took 3 hrs to pass &quot;and darkness covered the whole country&quot;(gospel of luke) anyway all the gospels note it <br />a  final simily perhaps rand dies to save the world and the ash cloud covers the world, it leaves and the light dawns again


created: 2008-10-18 08:16:41
subject: <b>But for what reason</b>
body:
Why would dragonmount blow?Other than covering the world in darkness for the afternoon what is this eruption for.Maybe SG and DM Are SA?


created: 2009-02-05 13:53:52
subject: <b>Always thought it was a volcano...</b>
body:
Moiraine remarks in New Spring that the snow always melts from Dragonmount's slopes before it does anywhere else. I can't remember if she says it's due to the heat of the mountain, but I assumed so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Go juggle something&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Aspiring Gleewoman<br /><br />&quot;Remind me never to play poker in this town.&quot; Ben Wade<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 18:40:59
subject: <b>Channeling won't end in the 4th age, but...</b>
body:
wasnt the Tamyrlin named in honor of the first person to discover channeling? That tells us that channeling will be FORGOTTEN in another age, but not gone for good.<br /><br />also, with all of the AS, Asha'man, damane, windfinders, etc. why would channeling end after TG? If anything it will flourish after the cleansing of Saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 18:46:46
subject: <b>I've never heard THAT idea before...</b>
body:
about the Tamyrlin.  Where'd you get that from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Rand al`Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></b><br /><br /><font color="Blue"><b>Elayne Trakand</b></font>'s Warder and <font color="Purple"><b>Alexia</b></font>'s Guardian!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 19:49:59
subject: <b>In answer to Burr</b>
body:
I don't think channelling will end at the fourth age.  I know most theories focus on that.<br /><br />This theory was actually a response to people's blackboard comments saying that people were &quot;idiots&quot; to believe that channelling ever ended...one guy in particular gave a speech based on (faulty) genetic grounds &quot;proving&quot; that it was impossible.<br /><br />I just wanted to form a baseline that as far as I can tell is irrefutable.  So far two people have voted for and two against me, but alas, I think the voters against my theory misinterpreted it as a channelling will end at the fourth age theory.<br /><br />In response to the above:<br /><br />Yes, where DID that come from?  I might have just forgotten, but that doesn't even sound familiar at all.<br /><br />As for FORGOTTEN in another age, but not gone for good...yes, actually that's pretty much what my theory SAYS.  If you weren't disagreeing with me, then you should reconsider where your EMPHASIS lies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Since my theory is based on a cyclically natured wheel of time, I was not intending to imply that Channelling would be gone for good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 21:09:37
subject: <b>This seems to fit</b>
body:
Perhaps the ability of channelers to sense the Source will be collectively forgotten after the Last Battle.  Jordan continually refers to lost talents resurfacing throughout the series, so I wouldn't be surprised if channeling became a forgotten ability for an age or two. <br /><br />If fiction teaches us nothing else, one inevitability has been the loss of magic in one age as the new age heralds technology and science, such as what Rand is trying to promote with his &quot;universities&quot;.  I think a lot of WOT fans have a hard time accepting this because the latter seems very prosaic, and much closer to the way our world operates.


created: 2002-06-29 21:18:00
subject: <b>A reason channalling will not end...</b>
body:
If channelling is to end then all of the people that can channel will dies in a matter of years. This is my belief because of the way the severing works. They normally don't live long. I may be wrong! but in IMHO I don't think so.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Loial the Ogier <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-29 21:28:28
subject: <b>Maybe if Jordan feels the same way you do...</b>
body:
But as it is, that would be a reason for which channellers may not want channelling to end, not necessarily a reason for which channelling would not end.  In any case, the channellers wouldn't die immediately; they just need to find a reason to live.  That can be accomplished with something as (relatively) easy as starting a family.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 22:16:39
subject: <b>re: Loial the Ogier</b>
body:
channeling wouldn't END, as in just suddenly stop.  i think it would be gradually forgotten.  people with the spark would not be recruited, or trained, so the only people actively channeling are wilders, who don't consciously know what they are doing.<br /><br />this would take a few generations, I think, due to the life span of channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> *snicker, snicker*<br />Part-Time Lurker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Pagans; into sex, death, and religion, in an interesting late night tv sort of way.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 22:16:56
subject: <b>I don't remember where I got that...</b>
body:
But I'll find it for you.... or die trying <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 23:22:03
subject: <b>Maybe the OP itself changes cyclically</b>
body:
This would explain why severing can be healed now, when it could not be in the AOL, and why it is now possible to unravel a weave.  Perhaps the sealing of the DO's prison, and the Taint,have caused changes in the nature of the OP itself, which has allowed new things that weren't possible before.<br />Of course, I'm assuming that such things weren't possible AT ALL in the AoL, as opposed to them just not being discovered, and it actually seems more likely to me that healing severing wasn't possible back then, but is now.  Certainly, it would have received some study once the War of Power was under way and I find it unlikely that with all their knowledge, power and skill the AS of that time would not have uncovered the ability if it was possible at the time.  <br />  This leads to the idea of cyclical change within the True Source itself, and one can imagine there may well have been an Age or two when channelling was simply not possible.<br />  Another point concerning the cyclical nature of things:  When are the Portal Stones going to be destroyed, and when will they be re-made?  Who made them, if they were already old in the AoL??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 01:31:11
subject: <b>Channelling must not end</b>
body:
The only evidence for this is the comment by the wolves. Although I too doubt the possibility of lies I doubt channelling will end. Nor will it, or can it, be forgotten. Although wilders do not always know what they are doing, eventually they will figure it out. One will see the glow around another or an improbable event will occur that can only be explained my 'magic' and the 'witches' will be outcast, forced to band together and lo and behold! another Tower. Or some other chain of events will occur to keep channelers alive. The only way to end channeling forever is... what? It has been suggested in the books that channeling was genetic and there is some evidence as to that (such as royal house of andor) but it is a theory. However, the genetic gene IS recessive if the theory is true which means that it would be virtually impossible to completely cull out the channeling gene. The only way I can see the end of channeling is to prevent contact with the source. If the Dark One can taint it, can he block it?<br /><br />I cant really see any probably method for this to occur and I think the quote should be published so that we can see if it says that it was before channeling, I think it possible that it was misinterpreted. If it was not, then this theory is most likely correct as the Wheel of Time IS cycilical and what once was will be again.<br /><br />I would however, like to congradulate the author for using logic and facts instead of blatant stupidity such as Loial did when suggesting that all channelers die shortly after being severed. Apparently, some of you can read.<br /><br />There is another possibility. Robert Jordan made a boo-boo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 05:23:24
subject: <b>Slight flaw</b>
body:
I like your theory, it has some good points, but I think you missed a small flaw.  I don't know the exact quote, I'll look that up later, but as I remember, it said that people ran with the wolves before people knew how to channel, not before they could channel.  This leads me to believe that if the cyclic turning of the wheel holds true, the One Power won't disappear, rather people my forget how to channel.  The OP won't be gone, just the ability to consciously tap into it will disipitate for awhile.  As further proof to this, if channeling has some genetic links as we're led to believe then how can it disappear in one age and reappear in another.  For the 3rd age must come again.  I suggest that the ability to channel always remains within people, they just forget how for a time being, sort of like forgotten talents.  Just my humble opinion.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-30 12:19:23
subject: <b>What a loser!</b>
body:
THere are many reesons as tooo the collapse of the turd age, but I think the most leekly is that the DO lost his interest in the world. <br /><br />If you thank about it, wouldn't the DO get bored with his whole philosophy after 3,000 years?  Don't you think he'd ever just change his mind for once, like the rest of it.  <br /><br />Doesn't he have a girlfriend or something?  I don't know maybe the DO is just wierd, and hasn't gotten any for so long, and that's why he wants to escape so bad.  Can't you say this guy is a huge loser, though?


created: 2002-06-30 12:24:53
subject: <b>More stuff</b>
body:
Interesting points above...which brings me back to my multiple powers theory.<br /><br />There are some interesting elements to add in.  Channelling is called &quot;The One Power&quot;.  However, The Dark One seems capable of gifting something his people call &quot;The True Power.&quot;<br /><br />Mat has an amulet that prevents the OP being used on him...which of course suggests that there is a Power that can negate the OP.  Will his amulet work against the TP?  We don't know.<br /><br />Something to remember about the drilling of the Bore, Mierin reported that it was a source of power they believed would erase the difference between male/female channeling.  This is either a reference to the TP, or manipulation by the Father of Lies, but the implications along one way can be highly intriguing. <br /><br />Also, his amulet causes physical pain against a being created by the OP. Also interesting.<br /><br />Wolves, their dreaming, and wolf brothers precede the One Power, we know that.  Which means, people's interaction with TAR precedes channeling, even though the Aes Sedai (with help from doohickeys for most of them) must channel Spirit to enter it. <br /><br />The Void.  I submit that the Void is more than just a concentration technique; it's a tapping into something.  It helps channelers, because the focus aids their connection.  Yet people we don't believe are channelers (Tam, Lan) also use it. <br /><br />The Evil that created Shadar Logoth (a power of corruption, of sorts), arose independently. <br /><br />So...the theory submits that channelling will end.  But what does that mean, really?  Will all things that are a power outside of natural laws end? Or just the One Power?  Why or why not?  <br /><br />Lastly, consider the Source.  Why does it express differently for men and women?  Perhaps the Source is merely a font from which all power is drawn, and those who are cut off can no longer access, and those who can channel, can tap into it in a certain way.


created: 2002-06-30 17:00:33
subject: <b>Yes and no</b>
body:
As I already said in the poll that spawned this theory, I can live with an Age or two where people don't conciously channel. Of course, if the Wheel wanted to, it could just completely stop real channelers from appearing, but that would be a bit cheating in my eyes. Much better to drop a heavy boulder on everyone who begins to understand that he is a bit more than exceptionnaly lucky.<br />I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the wolves said &quot;before people LEARNED to channel&quot; (or something on that line), but even if that's not the case, those pitifully few channelers who survive could easily be assumed to not get to the wolves attention and if the pattern thumbs down hard on anyone who might &quot;discover&quot; channeling, those numbers would be even fewer.<br /><br />However, I see another problem. We know the wolves are immortal, but being killed in the dream world by the likes of Luc/Slayer is the eternal death for them (their own words, if I remember correctly). However, the Wheel is cyclic (at least all comments and explanations of Jordan point to that and it is rather a key component of the whole WoT world structure) and such infinite (unless the DO wins, but I think that would cause all theories to go wahoonie-shaped anyway). However, that would mean that over the cycles, you would have fewer wolves in every turning. At one point there would not be any wolves left, so<br />a) someone must add new wolves at some points (they don't remember anything about that, so it casts a few doubts on their memories)<br />b) they are not really finally dead and some event in the turning &quot;revives&quot; them (no mention of that either =&gt; how good is their memory)<br />c) there is an infinite supply of wolves (can't really be because people sometimes see other things in the dream world than wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br />d) Jordan never had to study math and such doesn't know about the usual finity/infinity problems<br />e) we are putting too much weight into a single comment Jordan didn't think too much about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />[math]A very similiar problem can be seen with balefire. If  in every turning of the Wheel, people throw around balefire, then sooner or later (which is unimportant when talking about infinity) end up with no matter left.[/math]<br /><br />My guess: It's quite possible that there is a time without (proper) channeling, but in my opinion it won't happen in the scope of the books, unless of course Jordan decides to write about other Ages when he finishes the &quot;last battle&quot;.


created: 2002-06-30 19:45:42
subject: <b>on the Tamyrlin....</b>
body:
that comment is found in the updated glossary in Into the Blight....on the Ring of the Tamyrlin, which doesn't state, but suggetst that the Tamyrlin might have been the one who &quot;discovered&quot; channeling, and that his Ring might be that second most powerfull s'angrael<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 21:53:25
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
If it's written up, it probably will come into play...and here's a guess that it's the ring Lan gave Nynaeve :-)<br /><br />(unless he's worn it. But even then it won't matter, since he can't channel)<br />


created: 2002-06-30 23:43:46
subject: <b>nice try</b>
body:
&quot;It was stated at one point in the books (The Eye of the World I believe, but I'm not certain) that people ran with wolves even before they could channel. A TIME WHEN PEOPLE COULDN'T CHANNEL?&quot;<br />    i dont think the people couldnt channel, i just think they were to primitive to know how to channel. nice try though.


created: 2002-07-01 11:35:29
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
I'm not entirely certain what is going to happen to Channeling in either the immediate or the distant future; however, I think a couple of issues ought to be addressed.<br />  (1) First of all I don't think it is entirely fair to always rely on the fact that the wheel of time is circular.  Yes we know that in the serries it has been stated time and time again that past events apparently repeat themselves, but even disregarding the theories that suggest that time will eventually adopt a linear model, this does not mean that EVERYTHING must repeat itself exactly.  We see in our world today that past events seem to repeat themselves because we don't learn from our mistakes, but it is only major events or themes that do so, not everything.  What would be that point of anything if all events were doomed to repeat themselves exactly time and time again by the same people without variation? In summary, yes major events repeat themselves, but that still leaves sufficient room for variation in change in the Wheel of Time.<br />  (2) The genetic issue has been brought up a few times.  Not only are there a lot of hints in the book that the ability to channel is a genetically recessive trait, but Jordan actually states this in the Guide to the Wheel of Time.  Granted, in the introduction of the book he leaves room for error by saying something to the effect that &quot;this is what we know if errors haven't been propogated in the translations and in the ancient histories we used in putting this guide together&quot;, but he states in no uncertain terms that the ability to channel is tied to a recessive gene.  (I'm sorry that the quotes aren't more accurate, but I don't have my book with me at the moment.  It is in the first few chapters of the guide which are deicated to the source and channeling.)  Anyway, regardless of the theories posted out there about whether channeling will end or not, I would like to see how the genetic issue is addressed by the authors of those theories.  I guess we also have to assume that Robert Jordan knows enough about genetics to be accurate in obeying the &quot;laws&quot; of genetics.


created: 2002-07-01 15:59:31
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Why did the author of this theory fail to give the exact qoute?  The author's theory seems to rest on a qoute he seems to remember from the EOTW.  PLEASE LIST THE EXACT QOUTE WITH PAGE #.  Why would you submit a thoery based on something you think you remember?  Give us the exact qoute please.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 19:23:54
subject: <b>Tamyrlin</b>
body:
&quot;Ring of Tamyrlin{TAHM-ehr-lin}&quot;<br />&quot;a legendary ring,believed mythical by most people,worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the age of legends.Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin,include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power.It was supposedly named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source and channel the One Power,and in some tales was actually made by that man or woman.Despite what many Aes Sedai say,no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel.Some believe that the present title is a corruption of Tamyrlin.&quot;<br />From the glossary of Into the Blight.<br /><br />I tried to post a theory about this but it was never posted,but to me it's obvious that Jordan put this in for a<br />reason ,the ROT will show up eventually.Most likely it's the sa'angreal that Lanfear spoke of or maybe what Egwene dreamed of the dark young man who shone so brightly she could not see what he was holding.<br />


created: 2002-07-01 20:30:51
subject: <b>Genetics of channeling</b>
body:
The ability to channel may be inherited, but that doesn't mean that saidin/saidar are limited by those rules. The ability may pass down from generation to generation, but how saidin/saidar may be affected does not depend on genetics. The taint affected all of saidin w/o any regards to genetics, and if one man can cleanse the taint from all of saidin, it may be possible to alter saidin/saidar is such as way that it disappears for good.<br /><br />One possibility is truly sealing the Bore. The fact that Rand cleansed saidin in WH after a finite amount of time suggests either:<br />1) There is only a finite amount of the taint. But this implies that it would be possible to access non-tainted saidin, and the still sane male Aes Sedai during the Breaking would have found a way.<br />2) There is a finite amount of saidin. Moraine says in TEotW that saidar is limitless, but even Aes Sedai in AoL didn't have any experience channeling the huge amounts of OP that comes with hours with the Choden Kal. If the taint is like a slick of oil on surface of saidin, then the fact that Rand was able to cleanse that oil gives the possibility that the OP has some semblence of a limit.<br /><br />This being so, then one could theorize that by using all available saidin/saidar, the Bore could be truly sealed. Then afterwards, either there would be no OP that even if you could channel, there'd be no OP left, or there would be so little of it that even if you channel, you can only tap into miniscule amounts (Like 'being in the zone', or Robert Horry's game winning last second 3 pointers).<br /><br />Assuming the above, one theory could be that the saidin/saidar the channelers tap into is actually just a fraction of the infinite pool of the OP that turns the wheel. As the wheel turns, the OP seeps into the Pattern, and it is this seepage OP that channlers tap into. Thus, once the OP is gone, slowly it could reaccumulate, until someone taps into it again, starting the cycle over.


created: 2002-07-02 03:56:01
subject: <b>dedrah sedai</b>
body:
Thanks for the quote! The part about Egwene's dream is a great Idea. I have a different idea about what the Ring is, though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 03:58:33
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
Not a bad Idea, but Lan says at one point that when the old ring wore down, it was re-made by melting down the old one and re casting it w/ new gold. He remarks that it probably still holds some of the same gold it had before Malkier was in existence (it was 2 other nations before being named Malkier.) This was in New Spring.<br /><br />Great thought, though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 09:49:44
subject: <b>More responses</b>
body:
First, to people who are missing something essential about my theory:<br /><br />FORGETTING HOW TO CHANNEL like a lost talent -IS- ending channelling.  I'm saying there's a no-channelling time, not necessarily that there's a channelling is impossible time.  Further, wolves can sense Wilders, they learned to channel.  Granted, maybe the wolves never met Jimmie and Jilly channel and they are the only exceptions.  I find that unlikely, although possible.  Only a non-cyclic theory, a wolf-lie, a Robert Jordan mistake, or a me misquoting could prevent my theory being right.<br /><br />By the way, Columbo.  I'm sorry for not re-reading the Eye of the World for the express purpose of finding this quote.  However, I do not -think- I remember this quote, I -do- remember this quote.  I just wanted to get this theory out there, but I am not willing to look up exact quotes, sorry.  I thought this was a memorable quote that everybody would remember, but I'm 300% positive it's in there (that is, it's stated more than once), and if you really need to you can find it.  I'm sorry if that came out a little harsh, I'm just annoyed by some rude comments I got.  The author did not find an exact quote because he didn't want to waste his time.<br /><br />to rebelst:  Though I thank you for defending the theory, I expect that saidin is infinite and taint is not.  It works like this.  Imagine a swimming pool.  Now, imagine it is infinitely deep (like a bottomless pit filled with water).  The water is saidin.  The finite surface area is covered with a sludge, the taint.  The taint is finite, but covers the entirety of the infinite saidin.<br /><br />Okay, I already did Scorp's wilder thing, and the genetic argument is actually for not against my theory (even though the tone seems to imply otherwise).  And thanks, I enjoy being able to read <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />I think the nature of the One Power changing from Age to Age is a neat and innovative, but ultimately incorrect theory.  Nevertheless, I can't see any flaw except a lack of evidence for...74 points for creativity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Now, to Monkey Boy:<br /><br />Are you calling ME a loser for no reason, or am I misinterpreting you?  I think your post might have hit the wrong theory blackboard, because it seems to have nothing to do with my theory at all when you talk about the Dark One in the &quot;turd age&quot;.<br /><br />To Vashti:  Very interesting.  We can presume that True Power ended some time before the drilling of the bore, and I place the first age as the current age and therefore as a non-channelling time, so I would say that all &quot;Powers&quot; end, but that isn't necessarily the case.<br /><br />As to Bitmaster, I expect there is an equilibrium through the ages of wolves (and, on an aside, note that there are infinite parallel universes containing wolves but sharing the same Tel'Aran'Rhiod, recalling Verin's explanation of Parallel universes to Egwene, therefore an infinite number of wolves DO exist in the world of dreams without crowding - the solution is that the world of dreams is infinite as well).  This would mean that wolves-in (births) equal wolves out (eternal deaths).  But this is a much longer cycle than normal life cycles.  After all, all real wolves must have living spirit wolves, therefore for wolves not to go really extinct, some spirit wolves must survive.  Therefore, I think it's fairly safe to say that wolves last for a few ages on average, some much more, and that they have lore that goes back further.<br /><br />For the damookster thing: although it isn't definitive proof, that is an extreme help to my theory, thanks! (Green Gaidin also, who I -think- originally remembered it)<br /><br />To Unfriendly Ashaman:  read the theory through.  Primitive channelling couldn't exist because WOLVES WOULD DETECT THAT AS MUCH AS learned channelling (my net-voice is harsh from yelling).<br /><br />To endiot - It is actually stated specifically in the book that the wheel does NOT repeat itself exactly, and yes, allows for variation (more each turning, in fact).  However, I think the loss of channelling is a pretty major change, not a minor &quot;variation&quot;.<br /><br />The genetic issue is sort of self-resolved in that it is recessive:  It could be bred out and only a few genetic carriers exist in different corners of the world.  After a VERY long time, cultural mixing allows a &quot;union&quot; of two carrier-descendants with the channelling gene, and *poof* (t)amyrlin.<br /><br />Wow, that was long, but a lot of people called upon &quot;the author&quot; specifically for a response.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 15:38:03
subject: <b>The turning of the Wheel.</b>
body:
I think your comment about the Wheel changing a bit every time is a bit off. If it means what I think it does, you're saying that at some point there has to be a Major change ie. the DO winning or the Dragon killing him for good. RJ has said many times that the Wheel is endless and this is a turning like any other. What they meant in the books was that, for example, the next Third Age Dragon won't be named Rand al'Thor, or there might not be a lost Malkieri King to come and rescue him w/ an AS. Instead it might play out a BIT differently, but the main points will be the same. Like Rand's wounds, Fain's presence, Senchan return, cleansing of saidin, etc.<br /><br />Never fear, Columbo and I are working on it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 19:50:42
subject: <b>Thanks for taking the time</b>
body:
Your.Master-  Thanks for taking the time to address some of the specific questions brought about by your theory post.  I was impressed and appreciate it.  Your post helped me understand better what you meant in your theory about channeling coming to an end.  I wasn't entirely sure if you meant that (1)eventually the ability to channel would entirely disappear (ie. total loss of the genetic ability or disappearance of the Source), or (2)just the loss of the knowledge of how to channel (ie. some people still could, but they don't even know they have the ability to do so or there are just a bunch of heterozygous people running around waiting to bump into another one another and thereby give rise to the &quot;first&quot; wilder again: (t)amrylin.)  I guess you ment the second option.  I agree that such a scenerio could indeed occur.  First of all, it fits with the turning of the wheel (the sudden introduction of the ability to channel or the sudden and total loss of that ability seems like too drastic a change in the turning of the wheel.  The temporary loss of knowledge how or the reduction of homozygous recessive people make much more sense.) Second of all, it makes much more sense genetically. (It is difficult to introduce an entirely new recessive trait into the animal kingdom since you would need two people that just by chance have a random mutation in the same gene which thereby produces channeling children. More over you would then have to have incest occur if the new gene were to be propogated to the subsequent generation.  It would be almost impossible to discover such a random mutation in two -shall we say intimate- people in a cyclical (Wheel of Time) pattern.  The idea that the population may &quot;cull&quot; the ability out of themselves by systematically killing off any and all channelers leaving only heterozygotes spaced few and far between makes much more sense.)<br />Anyway thanks for taking the time to address some of my concerns, based on your reply I would have to say that yes, I agree with your theory.  Nice work.


created: 2002-07-03 20:09:54
subject: <b>so it isn't quite that hard</b>
body:
With regards to my above post, I exagerated a bit about the difficulty of introducing a new recessive trait into a population; really all you would need is two direct decendents of a person who had the mutation and passed it on to their progeny, given long enough, the trait could spread, but all channelers would still have to be direct decendents of the original &quot;mutant&quot;  Even so, the probablity of the repeated introduction of a recessive trait that is identical in nature to a trait previously totally lost is very small indeed.  Besides the fact that to entirely eliminate the recessive trait you would have to not only kill off the channelers, but their parents and siblings as well (or at least guarantee that neither their parents nor their siblings have any more children).  Sorry, I just wanted to clear up to some extent my error.


created: 2002-07-04 13:32:08
subject: <b>Wheel keeps changin</b>
body:
actually, it's right there, and I argued the exact same thing that you did with a math professer, and we figured this out -<br /><br />Let's set the initial wheel variance value at 0.  The DO breaking the world or whatever is set at 1.  After the first turn, wheel variance = 0.5.  Second, wheel variance = 0.75.<br /><br />In other words, after an infinite time, yes, that will happen, but we will never reach an infinite amount of time (summation of (1/2)^n).  Now, imagine that the same wheel variance applies, but the DO winning is set at 2.  The DO doesn't win after even an infinite amount of time.<br /><br />This is kind of an oversimplification, but trust me, there are many ways that you can mathematically prove that a constantly increasing variation doesn't necessarily result in the DO winning (think like the wheel is a circle, with a constantly expandine radius, becoming straighter and straighter at the perimeter but never quite becoming linear).<br /><br />And thanks to endiot for thanking me...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 22:27:03
subject: <b>The one power replenished</b>
body:
A thought just occurred to me<br /><br />When Rand cleanses the taint on saidin it&#232;s like this vast ocean of power that takes bloody hours to be cleansed<br /><br />This implies that the one power is a tangible substance so after ages of channeling wouldnt the force need to be replenished<br /><br />After all the more water you drink out of a glass the less full the glass is<br /><br />So I believe eventually people have to stop channeling because the one power is the driving force behind the wheel of time and if the source dries up then the wheel of time will stop<br /><br />This would be essentially the same as freeing the dark one from his prison.....The end of time as we know it.<br /><br />Once the Power is refilled the wheel can start churning out channelers again<br /><br />Like I said just a thought but a reasonable one I think<br /><br />Peace


created: 2002-07-04 22:42:39
subject: <b>one more thing</b>
body:
quit referring to the wheel as cyclical <br />thats just stating the obvious<br /><br />ITS A BLOODY WHEEL!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />of course its cyclical<br /><br />HOW CAN A FRICKIN WHEEL BE LINEAR<br /><br />anyway just had to get that out of my system<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-05 06:03:54
subject: <b>More thoughts</b>
body:
Looking through the discussion, I've gotta say the theory that the OP is infinite, while the taint is (was) finite sounds more sound. What happens after a weave is channeled? It dissipates, but where to? The most logical place would be that is dissipates into the Pattern, thus returning to the OP, so even if Rand channels for years on the CK, he'd never run out of the OP. But since he channeled saidin through Shadar, he was able to cleanse the finite taint, and let the clean saidin disspiate.<br />Assuming this, then the only way for channeling to 'disappear' would be either the gene to disappear, or for people to forget how to channel.<br />Maybe some huge cataclysm affects only channelers, thus wiping out to gene. Or, I believe that it was never stated that there was a channeling gene, only that it was genetic. Channeling could be a mutation of a recessive inherited gene. The gene that is inherited makes you more susceptible to the channeling mutation, such that if you aquire a further mutation, then you can channel. One possibility is that use of the OP is what causes these mutation, kind of like OP radiation. So perhap a cataclysm where channelers all die, or the major channeling bodies (the Towers, etc.) are all killed, then perhaps channeling could disappear.<br />Alternatively, destruction of the major channeling bodies would lead to people eventually forgetting how to channel, achieving the same effect. <br />Following this line of thought, there's an interesting point. The Fourth Age passages all mention the Dragon. And Aes Sedai survived the Breaking. The first tells us that TG isn't so bad that people forget about Rand, so it's safe to assume people know about channeling. The second tells us that the Breaking wasn't so bad that people forgot about channeling. So, in order for people to forget how to channel, there would have to be a cataclysm bigger than the Breaking and TG!<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-06 07:46:45
subject: <b>Perhaps this is a tangent...</b>
body:
Perhaps in one of the turnings the Dark One manages to block both saidin and saidar, that that is his counterstroke.  Further, perhaps thats the next but one cycle, in the next both saidin and saidar are tainted.  Perhaps this is the variance on the wheel that will always approach 1 (the dark one winning, as mentioned earlier by A N Other) without ever reaching 1.<br /><br />   For each succeeding dragon soul the situation becomes harder and harder and more and more desperate.  Until something really cataclysmic happens and we go back to the beginning.<br /><br />    Some of you will need to note that i'm a) not really saying or asserting anything and b)not referring TG, I'm referring to the cycle of several ages at once.<br /><br /><br />Someone earlier suggested there were certain themes what would recurr in all cycles, things like Fain, The Dragon Reborn having wounds, etc etc.  I disagree, mention is made at several (undefined) points in the books about how (for example) three t'averen sharing the burdens of the dragon (my interpretation) is unusual/unheard of.  I think the only recurring elements within the Wheel are that there is a battle between good and evil that ends at a particular point, and there is a Dragon involved in it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-07-10 09:53:10
subject: <b>It seems my theory is more popular</b>
body:
as it relates to finite taint and infinite power <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Honestly, I haven't seen much of anything to argue my theory, and yet the vote is 69% against.  Hmm...<br /><br />shifty - the cyclical wheel is NOT obvious because there are some very good reasons to believe that the wheel will break and time will become linear.  Besides, a car moves linearly upond cyclical wheels...who'd have thought it?<br /><br />SO I won't quit referring to the wheel as cyclical.  In fact:<br /><br />The wheel is cyclical<br />The wheel is cyclical<br />The wheel is cyclical<br />The wheel is cyclical<br />The wheel is cyclical<br />The wheel is cyclical<br /><br />Hee hee...<br /><br />Oh, and frond...I'm not sure if you meant tangent to be a pun, but it's a great one nonetheless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 11:18:44
subject: <b>Portal stones</b>
body:
One problem that I can see in this theory is existence of Portal stones. It is mentioned that AS during AoL used them but they already existed and they need OP to work, so someone or something knew how to use OP even b4 AoL. In fact the fact that AS during 2. age didn't knew who created them (or did they knew?) seems to indicate that they are older that 1. age, or there would have been at least some legends or myths of their creation. So there must have been somekind access to OP during creation of those stones. Naturally assuming that they really need OP to work and their original source of power wasn't something else which was replaced by OP.


created: 2002-07-10 16:10:47
subject: <b>PTH</b>
body:
Remember *loud* the wheel is cyclical <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />anyway, my point is that maybe the portal stones are created in the near future, perhaps the fourth age, before the power is lost.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 19:36:07
subject: <b>I think the theory is right...for different reasons tho.</b>
body:
The One Power is the force that turns the Wheel, yes?<br />So if the Wheel stops, it's probably because there is no OP anymore (or that there are no channelers using it).<br />This is the reflexive property. if a = b, then b = a.<br /><br />And what was the Dark One trying to do? Stop the Wheel, wasn't it?  And he's probably afraid of the One Power, especially when wielded by the Dragon (Rand, LTT, etc).<br /><br />So if the DO won at tarmon gaidon, stopping the Wheel, then wouldn't the ability to channeling the OP stop, also?<br /><br />Or if Rand wins the LAST &quot;Last Battle&quot;, killing the DO, wouldn't that stop the Wheel? I think Rand and everyone would give up channeling for killing the Dark One forever.


created: 2002-07-18 09:46:49
subject: <b>Fair enough, Elder Haman</b>
body:
but the point is that if the wheel is cyclical, the the point of view is unarguable (despite the 68% who voted against me).  If yours comes to pass, we don't know (although I tend to agree).  I was just trying to set up grassroots baselines for future theories, and it turns out that the grass was poisoned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 09:21:54
subject: <b>It was Elyas who said that, not a wolf.</b>
body:
Though I like your theory and I believe wolves do not tell lies, I have one problem with it; it was not a wolf who made that statement. It was Elyas. We know he was a warder, and all warders are oathbound to obey and protect their Aes Sedai (see Lan having problems with these conflicting oaths while he and Moiraine are in Illian), yet Elyas has broken those oaths. Admittedly, he had a good reason (it probably saved his life), but if he has broken those oaths, he is not going to mind telling Perrin a small lie that he assumes will be in Perrin's best interest. After all, if it's older then channeling, it must be older then the hole in the DO's prison, and the DO can have nothing to do with it. This assurance that it is not an evil thing should make it easier for Perrin to accept that he is a Wolfbrother, and Elyas seems really motivated to help Perrin.


created: 2002-11-15 10:29:39
subject: <b>not over but forgotton</b>
body:
i think that in the fourth ( or possibly ) fifth age, that instead of ending, channeling will be forgotton.  in effect, the white tower and their &quot;culling&quot; will eventually reduce the number of channelers to a point where those who can channel are looked at as tricksters or fakes.  and as the amount of channelers decrease, so will the applications of channeling itself, in effect removing channeling completly over the course of an age, or two.  so what the wolves remember is not when humans wern't able to channel, but when they had forogotton they could.


created: 2003-01-28 13:46:49
subject: <b>not sure if this has been explictily said...</b>
body:
the reason that people would forget how to channel is that after the DO is sealed away again...there really is no dire need to know it. Also it will probably been seen that channelers were responsible for all the problems with the DO in the first place and witch hunts and paradigm shifts in peoples thinking will occur to where the societies refuse the let anyone channel...blah...blah...etc...


created: 2003-05-18 01:16:42
subject: <b>About the nature of the Power possibly changing over time...</b>
body:
I seem to remember a quote from one of the Foresaken about how certain AoL objects are now impossible to make outside of Shayol Ghul.<br />Does anybody have an idea of where that quote might be? I don't know where some of my books are and I don't have the time to go looking through them all to confirm the quote.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 01:14:31
subject: <b>Yes or no</b>
body:
I do agree with ur theory in part. It will STOP, but not end. It'll resart again at some point going by your theory. If that's what ur talking about then excuss me. Not clear. But it wont str<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />up END. And the One Power turns the wheel. So the one power wont go anywhere, people will just stop being able to channel it for awhile. Could be a way of RJ saying the world of the wheel of time is either past or future from now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 01:52:33
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
maybe i should've read the comments already posted first. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Nevermind that first part. But I still think if it's true (which most likely is), it's RJ's way of hinting at his story being past or future of this reality (don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i BELIEVE it is). <br /> To the person talking about the math infinity thing, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills and it might weave some new threads and matter into the world. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-17 13:52:04
subject: <b>Channeling</b>
body:
That may be true, with the wolves, but, the Source can still be there.  People, over time and given certain circumstances, could forget how to channel, much in the way that in the beginning of the series, before the founding of the Black Tower, the men who can channel teach themselves. Since people with the spark, or inborn ability to touch the source whether they want to or not, have decreased in numbers, I think it is safe to say that eventually there could be no people left with the spark born in them.  As the Wheel IS cyclic, the talent would eventually be rediscovered however.


created: 2003-10-24 19:37:32
subject: <b>Turning of the Wheel</b>
body:
But the One Power turns the Wheel of Time, so if wolves ran with people before they could channel, it either meant before there was time (unlikely) or before people LEARNED to channel. So yeah, they might be able to fogret, but you would have to completely destroy the Aes Sedai, the Ashaman, the Windfinders, The Seanchan, the Kin, the wise ones, ect, which will probably not happen. And it won't fade out either, expecially since the cleansing of Saidin. Of course, it'll take a while for people to realise they're channeling male relations are eating children and stuff like that, but they'll come around.


created: 2004-01-23 19:24:41
subject: <b>What</b>
body:
You are a fool if you believe that. It said Before there were AES AEDAI.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What are the clouds <br />but an excuse for the sky<br />what is life <br />but an escape from death<br />	&quot;Kasagi Yabu&quot; James Clavell's Shogun<br /><br />I, am dying. I've been dying since the moment I was born.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-24 17:52:39
subject: <b>The actual quote</b>
body:
The actual quote is by Elyas, about halfway through Chapter 23 of tEOtW. (i have a digital copy of the books...no page numbers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />)It says &quot;This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai. Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as wolves.&quot; Then he goes on to say more interesting stuff, about &quot;ancient barriers weakening&quot; and Aes Sedai, but that's beside the point. Just wanted to post the ACTUAL QUOTE on here. (Unless there's another, further on?) 1) this would be really lame, but it could just be referring to the long lifespan of channelers. 2) this is a comment based on the beliefs of Elyas. He could easily believe channeling was just invented in the AoL. 3) seems like common sense that there is a time where humankind is very primitive, just evolving from apes or whatever. they happen to discover talking to wolves before discovering how to channel, at least this turning of the Wheel. At the end of the 7th? (last age anyway) there could be a HUGE cataclysm, destroys the world, and life has to arise again. 4) wolves could have only been able to sense the OP for a RELATIVELY short time (a couple of ages). maybe they had to learn the trick of sensing it from a channeler who also talked to wolves, or maybe the One Power &quot;evolves&quot; over time (hence how things are possible now that weren't in the AoL and vice versa) and it evolved so it could be sensed by wolves, again, RELATIVELY recently. ok im done now...


created: 2004-04-29 21:43:28
subject: <b>No Way!</b>
body:
I very strongly disagree with this theory. If you read the first part of the first chapter in every book it explains there are no beginnings or endings. So with that in mind there won't be a time without the one power because it can't be endings.


created: 2004-07-23 07:28:21
subject: <b>y=sin(<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Instead of the wheel of time being circular I think it is a continuos occilation like a sine or cosine curve.  Since time is constant that is ever increasing, at least to the human perspective I know other argument can be made for time travel, the circle can never be like a true circle.  The snake never catches it's tail but rather seems to catch it when looked at the right perspective.  If you disagree and think that at some point we all go back to savages who have to reinvent fire and what not I think you are wrong.  If Randland is anything like earth we have a couple billion more years until our sun devours our planet.  While the possibility for a civilization ending event could still happen if anybody survived they would have the knowledge of fire and pass it on, so too with ther things.  We all are just probably waiting for the next mass extintion anyway.  After that I doubt human will be around.  Blah blah blah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-23 07:37:04
subject: <b>y=sin x</b>
body:
Smiley codes messed it up.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-01 14:05:05
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I'm surprised no one mentioned Mosc and Merc fighting each other with fire lances in the sky.  It's mentioned in one of the early books in a series of ancient legends/children's stories.<br /><br />In an interview somewhere, Jordan confirmed the Mosc was Moscow and Merc was America and the reference was to missiles that had been transmuted over several ages.  <br /><br />Also there is a Mercedes Benz symbol in the Museum in Tanchico that Nynaeve, I believe, sees (also confirmed by Jordan).<br /><br />Thus the Third Age is at least several ages into the future from us.<br /><br />1. WE CAN'T CHANNEL, THEREFORE NOT EVERY AGE MUST BE ABLE TO CHANNEL.<br /><br />2. Why we can't channel:  <br />    A. By now, maybe the technique has just been forgotten<br />    B. But HOW could it be forgotten?  Perhaps in sealing off the Bore at the end of this or another age the one power was sealed off, &quot;dammed,&quot; or &quot;diverted&quot; into another &quot;channel&quot; that then could not be &quot;accessed&quot; by human beings.<br /><br />I'm not predicting this.  Nor does it seem that the turning of the wheel requires the channelling be cut off and then forgotten, except in legend.  But it is absolutely clear that there was once a time when people could not channel, and that it might happen again.<br /><br />


created: 2004-10-21 09:34:04
subject: <b>Cyclic but not repeating</b>
body:
even if the wheel is cyclic and repeats some of the things that have already happened doesn't rule out the fact that the same ages come again but different things can happen in them. I mean when the third age comes again do you acctualy belive that rand will exist again and that everything that happened in the books will happen again thats just absurd. What will hapen is that that age comes again just that different things happen. This means that chaneling can last forever or not. BUT just because someone was the first one who discovered chaneling doesn't mean it will disapear again.


created: 2004-12-08 23:16:35
subject: <b>Ok you guys</b>
body:
This is whats gonna happen. The DO and randyman with some suped up Aes Sedai and Asha'men are gonna be duking it out and WHAM they figure out that working TOGETHER they can place the DO in his little hole and totally remake his prison maybe with a futon or something so he doesnt get mad. Then the DO pissed off because they didnt leave him with any TV is gonna do one of those counter strike things and the backlash will of course kill rand and a buncha his folks then the other part of the backlash will send a surge threw the OP (both sides) insantly killing all the channelers :-) whadya think? Then mats gonna be king cuz he knows how to make gunpowder cuz he finally got it out of Aludra after some hot lovin.<br />--------------or-------------<br />The same scene as above their all duking it out and the creator pops up and is like yall suck so im just gonna start over. And since the &quot;Wheel of time&quot; is cyclic as EVERY FRICKIN ONE OF YOU has stated then their has to be a &quot;starting point now doesnt there?' mkay then the creator remakes the world just like normal and all the folks are new and he remakes the wolfs who are all dead cuz perrins stupid and gets them killed by slayer then there is this nice little &quot;age&quot; where everybodies still discovering where babies come from and some basic hygiene. And this would solve the whole wolf dilemma and memory debate. :-)<br /><br />This lovely statement, <br />from your friendly neighborhood crack adict


created: 2005-12-29 11:05:14
subject: <b>you stabbed yourself in the heart</b>
body:
you said it yourself, the power turns the wheel of time, so people have always had the ability to touch the one power, unless there was no one born with a seed or spark. That is highly unlikly<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">youngest user <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> &lt;--- What the hell?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-18 12:27:57
subject: <b>Well, at least RJ agrees with you.</b>
body:
From TOR questions of the week http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152<br /><br />Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.<br /><br />Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)


created: 2007-01-16 23:13:57
subject: <b>the ability ends not the act</b>
body:
The ability to channel may be forgoten or even lost, but the OP will still be there. Therefore we as humans may foget how to channel, the ability will none the less be there.


created: 2008-07-04 02:00:33
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I was just wondering why no one adressed the standing flows issue.  In the age of legends there was te standing flows I believe it was called, and terangreal used these standing flows, though the standing flows dont exist now and it said just about all terangreal could be used by non channelers and channelers<br /><br /><br />alike any thoughts?


created: 2002-06-30 17:36:21
subject: <b>Graendal is no stranger to Shara</b>
body:
I forget the titles, but the two heavily-compulsed servants she had were very high ranking members of Shara.<br /><br />So...she knew enough of the Society to know whom to look for, where they could be found, who she had, and how to get them.  As you pointed out, this is not common info.  She has to know a fair amount. <br /><br />Jain Farstrider would be a valuable resource for Forsaken recently awakened from an 3000 year sleep.  He more than any living person could tell them about the lands today.<br /><br />Also, Graendal is a deliciously deceitful wench -- as are Sharans.


created: 2002-06-30 18:56:05
subject: <b>I dunno.........</b>
body:
This is... interesting. Does she still have an involvement w/him? If so, what is the point of letting him go with Mat? There has to be a reason she allowed it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 19:09:02
subject: <b>Of course she allowed him to go with Mat....</b>
body:
A Forsaken would want as many strings on a ta'veren as possible.  Graendal would just love to keep 'abreast' of Mat as much as possible.  She is not stupid.<br /><br />The interesting thing, is that Mat might have 2 Forsaken directly on his heels next book- Semirage with Tuon, and Graendal with Farstrider.<br /><br />But this sounds like Mat, he's always got woman flocking after him, and they aren't always pleasant...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 20:11:54
subject: <b>You forgot to mention Graendal's old man....</b>
body:
The one who stood out from the other 'pretties' at her meeting w/ one of the other forsaken. It could have been Noal, but it could have been that Borderland General, too.<br /><br />Hmmm....... Anyway, I feel that If he was being compulsed by Ishy, then Moridin has continued it. I just dont see Ishy letting him go to Graendal that easily.<br /><br />Then again, I have been known to be wrong.....<br /><br />...from time to time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 21:14:39
subject: <b>The only thing</b>
body:
that I see is a problem is this.  The Sharans are very very secretive people for certain.  And you are saying Farstrider lived there (i can believe that) and then escaped (i could belive that too) but then later he went back and lived for twenty years.  This is where I have a problem.  Why would the Sharans let him live after he escaped?  They must have been really ticked to say the least when they discovered that this outsider had escaped. Why would they just let him live among them only to escape again.  You make alot of good points in this theory and youve convinced me that Noal is under compulsion.  But the whole Shara thing sounds mostly far fetched to me.


created: 2002-06-30 21:39:50
subject: <b>He could have been anywhere</b>
body:
Just because there is a connection between Graendal and Shara does not necessarily mean that that is where she came across Noal.  He may just as well have been wondering around Arad Doman, and came across the Lady Basene.  <br />  I do agree that he does seem to be under compulsion, though, and that it most probably is Graendal who is pulling his leash, but that's because of the old man mentioned in her palace in TFOH prologue, not because of anything else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 22:16:43
subject: <b>well, he probably wasn't just anywhere....</b>
body:
the glossary said that he 'disappeared.'  To me, this sounds as if he vanished from the known world for awhile, out of everyone's site.  It could be that he went incognito as Noal Charin, in say, a place like Arad Doman.  <br /><br />So, the disappeared could either refer to the fact that Noal forgot who he was, and thus disappeared as Jain Farstrider, or it could also refer to him travelling away from the known world.<br /><br />If that POV is taken, then he most likely travelled to Shara, Seanchan, or the Waste.  Since the Aiel kill foreign men, and since he hasn't said much about Seanchan, I would assume that he could have gone back to Seancahn.<br /><br />I did say that that was the msot speculative part of my theory, but it is an important question to ask where he was all that time.  <br /><br />He could have returned to Shara safely, if he didn't escape in the first place.  If, say, someone like Ishmael pulled the strings for him to be able to leave.  This would prepare the way for a safe return.  This, of course, is unsupported speculation.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 22:17:46
subject: <b>A strong case for why Noal is Graendal's agent, not Ishy's</b>
body:
I wrote a theory earlier about the Graendal/Noal connection.  It extends farther than just the compulsion, the Shara connection, and the 'wrinkled old man' in Graendal's old palace.  As I mentioned, it extends to the fact that Noal was spying on the df's who were looking for the bowl.  This is very important, and it is the most solid evidence that Noal may be connected to Graendal.  <br /><br />As I said earlier, Ishmael, Moghedien, Sammael, and Graendal were the only Forsaken who knew about the stash.  Moghedien sent Ispan and Falion to find it. These were Moghedien's agents.  Since Moggy was controlled by Ishy, they were essentially Ishy's agents.  Thus we can rule out Noal Charin being controlled by either Ishmael, or by Moghedien.<br /><br />Since Noal was spying on Carridin, we can eliminate Noal being an agent of Sammael.<br /><br />Through the process of elimination, I have just made a strong case for Noal Charin being controlled by Graendal.  So as you see, there is more evidence than appears on the surface.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 23:39:51
subject: <b>Very possible</b>
body:
Please keep in mind that if anyone has one of those slippery minds like Morgase does which allowed her to escape from Rahvin I think that Jaim would be an excellent candidate. Graendal may have no idea what happened to him and he simply joined up with the first 'adventuring' group he ran into (Mat). <br /><br />Great theory, I havn't followed the Jaim Farstrider history very much but from what I do know I cannot find any holes in this theory. However, it is somewhat rediculous to think that Jaim could return to Shara after escaping it and expect to actually live longer than a day. More likely he wandered incognito before being snatched up somehow by Graendal. By the actions he has taken in Ebou Dar I think it would be somewhat difficult for him to escape the limelight for any extended period of time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 09:11:01
subject: <b>PROBLEM!!</b>
body:
While this theory is plausible, one of your early quotes leaves me dubious about your theory:<br /><br />     &quot;The Elders thought it might be something Aes Sedai had done, since as soon as he was within the stedding he quickly got well&quot;.<br /><br />Who or what would 'get better' after entering a steading. Only an insane man who could channel. Jain Farstrider, as far as we know, could not channel. Therefore it cannot be him that was at the steading. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your Soul is Mine!!!  MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 11:59:38
subject: <b>Not a man who could channel</b>
body:
I'm sorry, I don't remember the details, but it seems to me that at some point it was mentioned in that books that during the Breaking, men who could channel would enter the Stedding, but that while it prevented them from going more insane, it wouldn't cure them if they were already mad.  Perhaps I am just making it up, but regardless of whether I'm imagining things or not, I think it still makes a lot more sense that the wanderer was not a channeler.  Besides, from the quote by Ishmael we know that he wanted Jain to think that he was finnaly free of him when he went to the Ogier.  What better way to let him think he had escaped than to stop making him sick or let him get better?<br />Also, I don't think that we can just disregard the possibility that Jain went back to Shara.  Obviously he is very resourceful, perhaps he was just hidding out as one of the people.  We don't even know that the Sharans were still looking for him.  Maybe he faked his own death or something.


created: 2002-07-01 13:38:29
subject: <b>Graendals pretties (FoH, Prologue)</b>
body:
I believe this has been mentioned before, but here's the quote:<br />&quot;Rahvin had not even noticed the opening of a third gateway, showing a large room full of pools and fluted columns, nearly nude acrobats and attendants wearing less.<br />Oddly, a lean old man in a wrinkled coat sat disconsolately among the performers.&quot;<br />FoH Prlg p.31 (Tor)


created: 2002-07-01 13:49:58
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
All the points are solid, even the speculation.  Consider that Noal is going by a different name.  He could easily just change his name and blend in if he went back to Shara;  he knows enough about the culture at this point.<br /><br />Also, just because you got better for going into a stedding doesn't mean you can channel.  If the OP was used on you to make you sick, entering a stedding would make the weaves dissappear.  <br /><br />I posted a theory before about Farstrider could channel, and got systematically torn a new arse.  It was pointed out to me that weaves vanish inside a stedding, because the OP cannot be sensed their.  <br /><br />Furthermore, once you get sick from channeling, you do not get better inside a stedding, because the damage from the taint is already done.  It won't just vanish.<br /><br />just my thoughts<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!


created: 2002-07-01 17:14:17
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
better than most of the recent bullcrap. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 19:14:02
subject: <b>One thing though...</b>
body:
I seem to remember that Jaim Farstrider was Malkieri. I remember a story about the fall of Malkier. Lan's aunt convinced his uncle (the kings brother) that he was being cheated out of power, and that his bother was out to destroy him. Lan's dad barely beat his brother for the Malkieri crown (by one sword/vote?) and Lan's dad's deeds were always a little better. Now Lan's aunt was an extremely jealous and self-centered woman, not to mention a DF. So to appease his wife, Lan's uncle takes his men (a large portion of the Malieri army) deep into the blight on an assault on SG (if I remember right). He and his men were then destroyed, thus greatly weakening Malkier. Shortly after, trollocs descend on Malkier. Although weakened they should have been able to withstand the attack, but for one thing. Lan's aunt's lover betrays the Malkieri, letting the trollocs flood in. The Malkieri have no chance once thier defenses are breached, so the king sends Lan and his escorts south to Sheinar. He then rides out to face the trolloc hoard and his death and the death of his nation. Lan's aunt and her lover fled during the attack, she then disappeared into the mountains with her son Isam. The lover was a great young swordsman named Jaim Farstrider.<br /><br />Or perhaps I remembered the whole thing wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 21:10:39
subject: <b>Almost, but not quite, Perrin...</b>
body:
I didn't remember Jain being part of Lan's story at all, so I looked it up. (TEOTW ppbk 709)  The lover you referred to was named Cowin Gemallan or Cowin Fairheart.  And it was he who was the DF, not Breyan.  (Lan's aunt)  Just wanted to clear that up.  <br />This  is a pretty good theory... I'm going to have to look up some references for myself before I decide if I agree, but  it's plausible, so good work.


created: 2002-07-01 22:06:18
subject: <b>Thanks...</b>
body:
I'm at work and don't have access to the books. I just automatically associated Cowin Fairhart and Jain Farstrider, from their discriptions. I assumed that it was him that wound up in the Ogier Stedding. I mean I hero from the borderlands that is associated with the DO, or at least Ishy. He just seemed like the perfect cannidate. He is also about the right age. If he was young when Lan was a baby, he would be about 50 or 60. I don't know.<br /><br />Another thought, can anyone really hide from the Forsaken. Well anyone that can't shield their dreams. In the early books we see Ishy drag some DFs into T'A'R for a meeting. Lanfear finds Rand having a dip with his three girls, before he learns to shield his. Also from Egwene's POV, we find out that distance is no factor to how close dreams are, and that once recognized a person is easy to find again.  So, if Jain went to Shara, Seanchan, tLoMM or anywhere else Ishy would be able to find him in no time. I don't know if a Stedding would give any protection from this or not. If so then there are plenty of abandoned Stedding around he could of hid in.  <br /><br />By the way, I agree with most of the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 00:20:43
subject: <b>lan's story</b>
body:
Jain was a part of the story, I believe this was mentioned in a post following another theory on him but here it is. pg 710, TEoTW, <br /><br />&quot;Breyan fled with her infant son Isam, ... When Cowin Fairheart's treachery was revealed and he was taken by young Jain Charin-already called Jain Farstrider-when Fairheart was ...&quot; <br />further on the page<br />&quot;... the infant [Lan] ... was given over to twenty chosen from the King's Bodyguard, the best swordsmen, the most deadly fighters. Their command: to carry the child to Fal Moran. ... Only five of the Bodyguards reached Fal Moran alive, everyone of them wounded, but they had the child unharmed.&quot;<br /><br />   My belief is that Farstrider was one of these Bodyguards that survived but the books don't hint at this, it just kinda fits, otherwise the great fighter who managed to capture Fairheart just ran away from the end of Malkier. Anyways there's the quote about him being involved in Lan's story. I think it was also this quote that lead to the Noal/Jain connection with the last name.<br /><br />   Nice theory, the biggest problem does seem to be the in Shara twice and still alive thing, course I don't see why he had to be their the first time. Maybe I missed a quote, but he could have just been snapped up by Ishy while striding far around, then released, then run to Shara and get pulled by everyone's favorite pet trainer.<br /><br />Oh yeah, anyone else remember Graendal's quote from her PoV dealing with why the Sharans were brought to Arad Doman and shown to Sammael? It's a whole Daes Damar w/o the houses thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 07:50:57
subject: <b>about him getting better in the stedding</b>
body:
surely that would be part of ishamael's plans to make him think he was free?<br /><br />or he could've been compulsed somehow to being sick, after all, there were no marks on him so it could've been mental. youcan't maintain compulsion on someone in a stedding<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font color="silver">Your favourite place is you and me.</font></i><br /><br /><i><font color="white">Eat dirt, fascist herbivores!</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 17:31:52
subject: <b>Jaim wasn't a bodyguard.</b>
body:
He couldn't be because in Snow Lan is traveling with the only surviving bodyguard (some B name, can't remember).  Furthermore there is nothing to indicate Jaim as being from Malkier in that quote, Malkier was the place to be at that point in history and it's not suprising that that era's most famous hero (Fairstrider) would be involved.


created: 2002-07-03 06:08:38
subject: <b>Just a little question...</b>
body:
How is a man supposed to react to a compulsion made with tainted saidin ? Can he go mad ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 09:52:15
subject: <b>I hate to go off topic, but</b>
body:
could the lord of twilight PLEASE shorten his signature so that he doesn't mess up blackboard formats to unreadability?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 12:12:41
subject: <b>bravo, I agree completely</b>
body:
Only one little question, does Graendal still keep in touch with her unwilling agent Charin?  If so, how would Mat and his followers not find out?  Perhaps Tel'Aran'Rhiod is involved...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 12:49:00
subject: <b>Why can't he have been in Shara twice?</b>
body:
Just because he goes there a second time doesn't mean he's using the same name.  Perhaps he changed his name to Noal Charin the second time to avoid more notice.  Shara is quite large.  It's not like everyone in Shara knows Noal on sight.  It'd be quite easy for a clever, resourceful individual to hide in a country he's been to before, and I think we can all agree that Noal has these traits.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!!!


created: 2002-07-03 22:36:37
subject: <b>Sharan's may not be so bllodthirsty</b>
body:
Just cuz nobody returns from Shara, doesn't mean they kill them.  I don't remember reading that.  Maybe they just have really good beer and beautiful women and nobody wants to leave.  Seriously though, Shara is the wildcard in WOT.  I have always felt that is where Jain disappeared too.  It makes the most sense with all of the evidence  ( and shadowy RJ half-evidence).  So what are they up too?  And how do they fit into the whole story?  Can't wait to find out!<br /><br /><br />Also,it makes sense that a person under compulsion could be cured in a stedding.  Speaking of compulsion, didn't somebody, Rahvin i think, say something about Graedals over-use of compulsion making her subjects almost useless.  This could explain Charin's foggy head.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-05 11:25:58
subject: <b>I found a quote that makes this better....</b>
body:
In FoH, The First Sparks Fall, Rahvin thinks,<br /><br /> &quot;A few- a very few-had a strength of self so firm that their minds searched, even if unaware for crevices through which to slide away.  It was his bad luck that he still had some small need for one such.  She could be handled, but she kept trying to find escape without knowing she was trapped.&quot;<br /><br /><br />So we see that it is a strong mind that resists compulsion.  I would definitely put Noal Charin in that same category of strong-mindedness as Morgase.  So it seems that Noal is definitely under compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 03:10:30
subject: <b>Anybody else think</b>
body:
that Noal is going to have his epiphany when he sees a copy of &quot;The Travels of Jain Farstrider&quot; laying around? (I could be wrong about the title but you know what I am getting at) I guess he didn't visit Mat's quarters much in Ebou Dar because I believe he had a copy there that Olver read, or was read to from.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 16:22:19
subject: <b>Wait a minute.... 2 things:</b>
body:
Ok, pretty much all that is known of Shara is from the Big White Book of Goodness and Pretty (or just the big white book).<br /><br />They're secretive, they're a little what I might consider &quot;messed up&quot;. Yadda yadda yadda.<br /><br />1)It IS possible, being the charmer/fighter/storyteller he is, he somehow got accepted into Shara. The first official imigrant. Maybe a storyteller to royalty/government leaders or something?<br /><br />2)And a certain forsaken who might have a few pretties from Shara might have found him there, brought his ass back. &quot;Wait a minute, you don't belong here.... You're mine now, *yoink!*&quot; or instead of yoink, more like *Compulsion!*<br /><br />Just two possibilities that I didn't think were mentioned so far, things to consider.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 03:39:40
subject: <b>Curing Jain Fairstrider's Compulsion</b>
body:
<br />If Fairstrider was to wear Mat's medallion, he would most probably be instinatly cured of compulsion and be returned to his normal self....and hence provide Mat and his companions with the knowledge needed to rescue Moraine from the Finn. Just a thought.


created: 2002-07-18 00:54:16
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
maybe when Jain left the stedding ishy picked up were he left off, jain having influentual friends in shara or something allowed him to return and while there jain was manipulated by ishy to do something in the DO's interest like spreading stories (or fake prophecy, like ishy did with seanchan) so that this nation would interfere with the dragon like seanchan is starting to now. After ishy gets what he wants done he forgets about jain, gives him a knew name and leaves him to roam. then he gets picked up again and dumped in ebou dar. Seems if he gets his memory back then he will be a very usefull source of information for mat.


created: 2002-12-19 20:06:48
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Maybe Jain entered the portal to the Aelfinn worlds (as he is an &quot;adventurer&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, and they changed him (like they did to Mat), partitioning his memories and creating a new Identity for him that only Grendael could see through.<br /><br />Maybe he exited that Portal in Shara, where she found him. This may account for the time dilation.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> damnable Ogier <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> why the long face?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Spot Shaidar Haran<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> is my dad</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-22 01:55:03
subject: <b>Um, guys...</b>
body:
From The Guide, pp 147:<br /><br />&quot;...No one knows if anything lies north of the Blasted lands other then the frozen ice of the northern ocean. Jain Farstrider was said to have travelled there willingly, but whatever knowledge he gained was lost when he vanished within its trackless depths...&quot;<br /><br />Looks like he either died up north, or was maybe captured and brought to Shayol Ghul?


created: 2003-05-01 03:31:39
subject: <b>Thank you!</b>
body:
You finally answered my question about Ishameal saying about painting Jain Farstrider like a fool. Thank you!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I'm so happy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-06 10:31:15
subject: <b>Rand did it too</b>
body:
Im pretty sure Rand made a trap over the waygates that slowly kills Trollocs/Myrdraal without them knowing about it.<br />If they dont know about it, do you think they will have a wound over them if its the OP?<br />Jain/the guy at the Stedding didnt have a mark and healed when he entered.<br />one power killed him slowly like Rand's did.<br />though it still doesnt solve which one did it Ishy or Graendal


created: 2003-06-26 21:20:15
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
A very lovely theory in whole... I always did think it was odd that there was usually a Mat/Noal chapter after the Graendal chapters. <br /><br />This makes that logical. Yay -- I like things to be logical.<br /><br />No criticism, and no points to add for now... I'm a reviewer, not a writer. ^_-<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 20:36:57
subject: <b>Farstrider darkfriend?</b>
body:
Wait i don't get it is Farstrider a darkfriend?? I mean why would he have seen Ishmael? And all the other is he a darkfriend of someone who has been manuplated to do evil or somthing? I thought he was good.


created: 2004-05-28 21:10:23
subject: <b>Most Impressive</b>
body:
I'd like it better if Noal wore a hadori, but that would be just to easy for us.<br /><br />wearing the foxhead would not dispell the effects of Compulsion especially if a stedding failed to. When Moghedien Compells that one innkeeper (just b4 Nynaeve's block is broken, something is mentioned about how the innkeeper will probably be noticably slower from that point on. So that means that Noal's amnesia is a physical effect, not a result of some residue of the OP in him. Of course, he'll regain his memory eventually; no point in RJ introducing him to the plot if he doesn't


created: 2004-09-30 14:18:12
subject: <b>Noal and the Sea Folk</b>
body:
I seem to remember Noal telling about the time he was on a Sea Folk ship.....possible escape from Shara since Sea Folk are allowed to dock there (only at the one walled city).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania's very own 'Sex Wiki'<br /><i>The Dirty Old Man of Wotmania</i><br /><br /> <br />attack of the Ninja Smiley<br /><br />BigBrotherBrian to most of the Wotmania Sisterhood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-26 00:50:04
subject: <b>Flaw in logic?</b>
body:
Just a quick thought...<br /><br />If I was trying to avoid someone who can channel, why would I go all the way across the waste instead of into one of the steddings that I would pass on the way. <br /><br />I can't see Jain/Noah heading to Shara to avaoid Ishmael however into a stedding, quite possibly.<br /><br />But otherwise I think your pretty spot on...<br /><br />Cheers


created: 2006-02-24 13:57:17
subject: <b>Intressting Theory</b>
body:
All in all the theory about Jain is good. There are some points that might be connected.<br /><br />We know 1. He is Malkieri<br />2. He travelled Shara but we don't know how he got there or how he escaped.<br />3. He travelled the north<br />4. Nobody knows how he escaped Malkier originally<br />5. He seems to be in contact/ under temporary control of Ishamael.<br /><br />So, here's the question. What if Jain, a young man when Malkier falls, was captured alive, perhaps brought to Shayol Ghul? Perhaps he managed to escape, so that whatever they did to him wasn't complete. Which might explain his dizzy memory and the link to Ishamael.<br /><br />Escaping from Shayol Ghul he might - mention he MIGHT - have thought it wise not to flee south, where every hunter would look for him, but perhaps north and east. So he might have come into the frozen lands, and, if he stayed alive long enough, to Shara in the end. Entering Shara from the north may be easier than another direction. <br /><br />So here's the next question. If he entered Shara, what did he find? A place to hide from the forsaken? or perhaps a realm of darkfriends? (I always asked myself where the initial resources of the shadow came from. The resources needed for wars like the Trolloc war. The war hit the ten Nations cold, so the preparations and resources must have been made somehwere else. Shara perhaps?) <br /><br />And this leads to the last question - if Shara was a place of darkfriends - was Jains 'escape' allowed by Ishamael, without Jain himself realising he was used.<br /><br />I think that the stedding helped Jain to escape some Influence of the forsaken, this is why he got better there. But who knows what cause he has not to stay there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Why did I follow him? I don't know.<br />Why do things happen as they do in dreams?<br />All I know is: when he beckoned I had to follow.<br />From this moment on we journeyed east.<br />Always to the east.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-18 07:09:33
subject: <b>Stedding Effects In General</b>
body:
I realize this hasn't been replied to in a few months, but I did not see some of the stedding effects mentioned. Someone earlier asked if steddings allow one to hide from being pulled into to T'A'R. The answer is yes. We know from one of Egwene's POVs that stedding and shayul ghul do not exist in T'A'R. Therefore, I find it most likely that the actual &quot;hiding&quot; referred to actually takes place within the Ogier stedding that he recovered in. Also, it is possible that the actual amnesia is not compulsion, simply an area of mind that has been erased by Graendal... I find it unlikely that simply removing the weave would do anything. It is probably a side effect of the level of compulsion used, hinted at times by Sammamael. The same may prove to be true for the weave that sickened was used to sicken him by Ishy(at one point I saw a brief suggestion this was Graendal's doing- not possible... no other Forsaken were even partly freed at that point in time. That the weave vanished, but the sickness was perhaps a side effect of the TP or tainted Saidin. This would work as well, as stedding are &quot;places of healing&quot; and described other times as being an aid in recovering. Overall it is a great theory though. I just wanted to clear up a few of the questions I saw. Other than hiding is Shara(which is possible... just not as likely) I agree with it. But the fact is, no set time is said for how long he stayed in the stedding. We have seen many times that Ogier and humans have a different intepretation of how &quot;long&quot; something took... most Ogier meetings take years, much like Ents in LOTR. Excuse the length of this response... I like to use as much detail as I can.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-26 22:31:41
subject: <b>2 things</b>
body:
If Fairstrider was to wear Mat's medallion, he would most probably be instinatly cured of compulsion and be returned to his normal self....and hence provide Mat and his companions with the knowledge needed to rescue Moraine from the Finn. Just a thought.<br /><br />Its a weave placed on someone, and then effects them to do what someone wants, I dont see why it would break if someone went into a steading or put on matts medallion.  Furthermore the medallion has limitations, its not as good as a steading.<br /><br />second the comments about the one power being tainted and driving Fairstrider mad...this is stupid.  If that was true the forsaken would be mad from using Sadin. The DO protects them, the taint is removed before it gets to them.  so &quot;tainted&quot; compulsion making him mad is just dumb, also Ishy could have been using the one power from the DO, they did mention that he was using it almost exclusively and that is not tainted...<br /><br />also someone els mentioned this, the steadings cant be seen in the world of dreams, along with a few other places, I wonder what a few other places means...maybe the sarha place who knows, maybe they have a kind of ter angreal that has a steading like effect that blocks the place from the world of dreams and thats why he was hiding there...that however is pure speculation


created: 2002-07-02 12:02:33
subject: <b>Okay, this is SERIOUSLY starting to freak me out guys.</b>
body:
Columbo and I had this convo not 3 days ago I kid you not. Man, this is freaky!<br /><br />Anyway, I agree. The symbols WERE meant to be more than we thought, but I would like to see a quote on someone seeing that exact symbol on a PS.<br /><br />Oh, and why did you just assume that Mat would be the one going? His last wish was to be free of the Finns. I don't think he CAN get back, but I'll have to think more on it.<br /><br />Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 12:05:21
subject: <b>As good of a guess as any!</b>
body:
The wheel weaves as RJ wills.  I think this theory is as good of a possibility as any.  On the other hand, RJ has told us there is a waygate in Ebou Dar (Barashta) in LoC if I remember correctly.  We cannot rule out the possibility there is another foxy (or snaky) gateway in Ebou Dar either.  His ta'vereness could easily bring any amount of strange paths from Ebou Dar to the tower of Genjei.<br /><br />Nice catch with the wavy lines.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 13:21:58
subject: <b>Pretty Good Thinking</b>
body:
I was starting to consider just what the idea of &quot;The Wheel of Time&quot; really means.<br /><br />Of course, the obvious answer is that it's cyclical, but there well may be more to it.  <br /><br />for instance, every wheel has a hub. is that hub Finnland?  Is that why Finns can give Mat memories, since they take it from other alternate realities?<br /><br />The Portal Stones and other entry points (Rings, etc.), could be the 'spokes' -- things that connect the Wheel to the Hub.<br /><br />Mat was there when Rand used the Portal Stones to get to Rhuidean, and he went through them in TGH.  He has some familiary with them, which means he has more than almost everyone else in the world (with the exception of 30-70 people)


created: 2002-07-02 13:28:18
subject: <b>Hey Vashti</b>
body:
I always thought of Tel'Aran'Rhiod as the hub of the wheel.  We know that it's the same throughout (I think Moraine says it) and it makes more sense than the Aelfinn.  If that's true, though, how come we never see any characters bumping into alternate versions of themselves?


created: 2002-07-02 13:54:01
subject: <b>This is a little annoying....</b>
body:
because the theoryposter did not even bother to include any previous descriptions of the portal stones.  <br /><br />To all wannabe theoryposters:  you are the ones that are supposed to look up the references, that's why you get your 50 pts.<br /><br />The theory is OK (except for the fact that I think there are other ways to enter the tower besides portal stones), but the lack of portal stone descriptions for comparative reasons, diminishes from the overall quality.<br /><br />It very well could be that Mat uses a portal stone, but there are several problems with this.  <br /><br />1.Who would channel into the portal stone?  None of Mat's party is strong enough to carry some 20 odd people out.  And no one has an angreal.<br /><br />2.  Mat hates portal stones, and I can see him trying anything else but using one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 14:02:37
subject: <b>Portal Symbols</b>
body:
TGH ch 17, when Lanfear shows Rand the Portal Stone, 'She traced one symbol, a little larger than the others, with a finger. A triangle standing on its point inside a circle.'<br />TGH ch 37, Verin points out the symbols to Rand, 'She pointed to two parallel wavy lines crossed by an odd squiggle, carved low on the column.' - referring to symbol for Toman Head, and 'With one finger she outlined a rectangle containing eight carvings that were much alike, a circle and an arrow, but in half the arrow was contained inside the circle, while in the others the point pierced the circle through. The arrows pointed left, right, up and down,' - referring to symbol for different worlds.<br />TSR ch 22, Rhuarc showing the symbols for Rhuidean, 'He traced two triangles, each surrounding what appeared to be forked lightnings, one pointing left, one right.'<br /><br />These are the only references to symbols on the Portal Stone I could find. The symbol for our world is an upside down triangle, and the symbol for Toman's head has the wavy lines. The symbols that lead to others worlds are arrows inside circles.<br /><br />None of these point to any connection at all with Finnlands.


created: 2002-07-02 15:35:25
subject: <b>I think rebelst is right</b>
body:
Those quotes don't seem to conect to the Finns.<br />But then, if there is a connection it will be great!  Picture this...   The dust cover on CoT says Mat will be chased by the Seanchan, so he makes some evasive manuvers through out the book, and then, at the last chapter he find a PS and has no other way but to use it...  and they end up in Finnland and we wait for book 11!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 15:42:02
subject: <b>Funny....</b>
body:
As GG pointed out above we recently looked at the idea of using a Portal Stone to enter Finnland.  As rebelst pointed out above,  we have yet to see a symbol on a portal stone that matches that of the Finns.  Obviously their are hundreds of symbols on a portal stone and we know of only a few, none of which matches the symbols that represent the Finns.  Although some are simular.  After discussing this we came to the conclusion that there are only three doorways to the Finns.  The third being the tower of Ghenji.  It seems when discussing the Finns everything is in threes and thus three ways to enter Finnland.<br /><br />Nice thought and still a possibility.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 17:00:04
subject: <b>In regards to Matrimony's point....</b>
body:
...a convenient channeler strong enough happens to be on their tale. What greater irony could there be than having Anath/Semirhage get rid of them by sending them to another dimension and allowing them to free Moiraine, leading to victory at TG?<br />


created: 2002-07-02 19:03:38
subject: <b>TAR Very well may be</b>
body:
...or, it could be the goo in between. I'm not sure.  But I think Finnland and the ability of the denizens to affect other 'areas' also makes it potentially one.  Pure speculation and I dont' even agree with it fully myself.  Just putting forth the idea.<br /><br />But...what about the Ways?  I've always been intrigued by just what IS in the Ways.  Like, the person who fell off of Rand's platform when he was skimming the assault to get Rahvin.  Where are they?  TAR is the only other 'region' that is essentially limitless that we've seen. <br /><br />Then, of course, there's the metaphysical aspects. When the Dark One brings someone back from the dead, is he pulling that version of someone in from a different reality?  I'm not submitting this, but just considerations such as that.


created: 2002-07-02 22:40:35
subject: <b>The many 'ways' for Mat to escape</b>
body:
I still think that a waygate is a much more viable option for Mat to escape than a portal stone.  <br /><br />I would have to agree that Mat is going to need to find some rapid form of transportation, whether it be the ways, a ship, a tor'aken, or a future gateway.  Otherwise his plotline will really, really drag.  And who wants to watch Mat just sit in one place for another book?<br /><br />As for entering the tower of ghenjei, the 3 cirlce method still seems to be the best in my mind.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 23:11:00
subject: <b>Not to Rescue Moiraine, but Egwene!</b>
body:
Why would Mat go into the ToG t find Moiraine? How would he know she is alive? Answer: To rescue Egwene (as he does quite a bit) and along the way find Moiraine????<br /><br />Egwene's discarded dream in ACOS:<br />&quot;Aes Sedai with switches chasing her down an endless coridoor where mishappen things in shadow lunged for her&quot;<br /><br />'Aes Sedai with switches' - as Sharina Malloy has shown up in Nynaeve's life then the Egwene's Accepted Test where the BA kidnapped Egwene may happen in a roundabout way.<br /><br />'Endless Coridoor' - Mat has been down this twice. The second time the Fox had human skin as a decoration.<br /><br />'Mishappen thing in shadow lunger for her' - Remember Perrin's dream where he meets a tinker-dressed guy in TDR. He got caught by a shadow on the ceiling and had his skin ripped off (for the Foxes).<br /><br />Mat cannot enter the ter'angreal twice and may use your way of getting there. He may also use Gawyn's bond as a way of tracking her down. This could be Gawyn's way of........................sorry I'm getting away from the subject.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In summary Mat tries to rescue Egwene - via your theory - and finds Moiraine as an added bonus. Thom will probably be with Mat as well.<br />


created: 2002-07-03 09:40:00
subject: <b>What about a Dreamer</b>
body:
Hear me out...<br /><br />We know that the ToG has no visible openings, yet Perrin saw Slayer flee into it in the Wolfdream. <br />What if Thom convinces Mat to help him save Moiraine, and they get the help of either Egwene, Perrin or a Wise One Dreamwalker?<br /><br />My idea is this. <br />Mat flees the Seanchan and meets up with Perrin and his army as they chase the Shaido. Thus, Perrin, with the Wolfdream can get them into the ToG. <br />Thom brings the Music (harp), Perrin the Iron (Axe), Mat the Fire (Aludra's Fireworks) and Olver, I think will break the rules to get them free. <br /><br />We know Olver loves playing Snakes-and-Foxes and that Mat has said there is no way to win, except to cheat. <br />Who better than the Gambler and his protoge?<br /><br />Just a thought...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'In the softly spoken words of the Virgin Mary: &quot;Come again?&quot;'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 11:15:09
subject: <b>More relevant quotes</b>
body:
From the Encyclopedia WoT:<br /><br />&quot;TSR,Ch15 - Mat, Rand and Moiraine all use the twisted red doorway to visit the land of the Aelfinn to get some answers. The doorway has three sinuous lines carved deep into each side. <br />TSR,Ch24 - Mat finds the second twisted red doorway in the great square of Rhuidean and visits the land of the Eelfinn. This one has three lines of downward pointing triangles on each side.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 13:30:11
subject: <b>Why Mat?</b>
body:
Nice Theory. It seems that the triangle with wavy lines could be the needed clue for rescuing moirane. I believe someone asked why it would be Mat. The answer is that it would most likely be Mat because he knows what the symbol looks like since he has been playing with Olver almost every night. IT would be unlikely that anyone else would recognize the symbol. As to who could channel the Portal Stone there are several channelers in his party that could link, none of which know how to make a gateway eliminating that route of travel. However, Robert Jordan may not even have Mat find her anytime soon. It may happen in another book and who can say where Mat will be after the Crossroads of Twilight? It is presumptuous to assume that Mat will be unable to use the Portal Stones because he doesnt have enough powerful channelers with him. If they are needed Robert JOrdan will provide for them. Perhaps he will meet up with Perrin and his gang who are roughly in the same area and have many channelers. There are many<br />possibilities and the only par tof this theory to be really concrete is the link with Mat and the Portal Stones via the game of snakes and foxes.<br /><br />Nice one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 15:27:06
subject: <b>Matrimony Cauthon:</b>
body:
The whole point of this post, I'm sure, was to get people to talk about this subject. Starting conversation was it's point, not getting 50 wSE points. Heck, Not everybody cares about them, we just want to talk WoT and this is as good a theory as any other.<br /><br />Interesting discussion on a Hub for the Wheel. I'm leaning toward T'A'R, but it cannot be within the Ways: They were created by Male Channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 19:57:12
subject: <b>To Talmanes:</b>
body:
that was a great point about the guy getting his skin ripped off in dreamworld.  I never noticed that correlation before.  I liked that post you should made.  It seems that there is a connection between Telarnrhiod and the Finns then.<br /><br />To GG:<br /><br />I really don't care that much about the pts either.  I also like the discussion.  But I just have to wonder about some of the theories posted lately.  I am a major propenent of providing the quotation, especially you are the one that wrote the theory.  <br /><br />But some of our latest theories, don't even provide quotes.  And this can be a little frustrating sometimes, because we all only have so much time to look up these quotes in the 1st place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 22:10:44
subject: <b>Very sorry.</b>
body:
I am very sorry about the fact that I didn't have any of the hand quotes that everybody else did, but I couldn't have them. I don't own the books. I take them out from the library, so when I wrote the theory I had a little napkin with the <i>Courage to Strengthen</i> thing summarized on it.<br /><br />Again, sorry.<br />Oh, and I posted this 'cuz I was excited about thinking of a threor no one else had poster. The points were just a bonus.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="174565">Yeah, it'll be more like the best MadTV sketch ever made ever. The one that you watch a go &quot;Um, that sketch was way too funny to be on MadTV.&quot;</font></b></font> ~ <i>Sore Thumbs</i><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><p><a href="http://www.wotmania.com/writersmessageboardshowmes" target="_blank">Stossville Zombie Incident: Episode One</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 00:08:35
subject: <b>My Idea...</b>
body:
Holy crap, this makes total and complete sense. I can just see it: Seanchan surrounding them, no way out, when Mat sees a portal stone and thinks, &quot;Blood and ashes, I need to use that thing. Burn me!&quot; and checks out the symbols and plans on picking one at random, when Olver says &quot;Look, Mat, that's the symbol for the snakes and foxes game!&quot; and everything clicks in Mat's head and he realizes the link between the game and the Finns and wants to have a word or two with the Finns AND get the hell away from the Seanchan, and has his channelers link and think of that symbol and take them there, and find Moiraine somehow...<br /><br />Sweeeeet.<br /><br />...yeah, um, sorry.<br /><br />- Matt Gaidin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">- Matt Gaidin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 00:33:18
subject: <b>.....and then</b>
body:
Mat goes to Seachan to give up half the light of the world to save the other half. ^__^  Bet you didn't think of that.


created: 2002-07-04 00:44:21
subject: <b>Matrimony...</b>
body:
I didnt mean my last post to be harsh, but I just re read it and am sitting here hoping it didnt come off that way.<br /><br />Oh, and I'm sorry; I didnt catch the corolation between the black shadow thing and the Finnns?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 12:17:39
subject: <b>ladida</b>
body:
this is a great theory but aren't we forgetting that matt's got someone else with him who can channel or at least learn.... the daughter of nine moons what if when mat meets up w/ perrin the wise ones take in tDoNM and teach her how to channel.......


created: 2002-07-04 12:54:34
subject: <b>Tuon learning to channel</b>
body:
It seems pretty damn far fetched to me to think that Tuon, the heiress to the entire Seachan empire, would so easily accept the fact that she herself is a marath'damane, and even more unlikely that she would willingly accept being taught by a bunch of heretic marath'damane who haven't even sworn the Oaths. It would be very poor writing on RJ's part to churn out something so duex ex machina.


created: 2002-07-04 15:35:50
subject: <b>I hate to ruin this discussion but........</b>
body:
All of the descriptions I have seen of portal stones (sorry, I don't have the books with me) have described them as &quot;doorways&quot; to worlds that might have been if something went differently.  For instance in The Great Hunt, the work that Rand, Hurin and Loial traveled to was a world where Hawkwing was defeated by the Trolloc army.  As far as I know the Finn worlds are completely different worlds in a different dimension.  I don't see, based on this, the portal stones could be used to travel to the world of the Finn's.  I could be wrong however, its happened once before.


created: 2002-07-05 09:05:55
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
...i think there are separatge sets, some for worlds that are, some for worlds that might have been, etc.<br /><br />Good theory.  Think it will happen in Book 10?<br /><br />btw i agree that the ToG would make a very good exit point for operation no-more-finn-speculation but i'm curious if anyone thinks much of the mythology-based theory someone posted a while back suggesting that getting into the Tower is a matter of walking around it three times?  like inn faery world where you walk around the hill and it opens up.  of course faries are always naked and putting people to sleep and whatnot but i liked the idea.<br /><br />anyway good catch, in all fairness this is the best piece of linking evidence seen to date.


created: 2002-07-09 00:01:25
subject: <b>Olver=Gaidal=Courage?</b>
body:
&quot;Thom brings the Music (harp), Perrin the Iron (Axe), Mat the Fire (Aludra's Fireworks) and Olver, I think will break the rules to get them free.&quot;<br /><br />   Of course!  Albeit that Perrin's axe is steel, not iron, but for all you chemistry buffs, you know that iron is used to make steel.  But the important part, I think, is Olver.  There is loose speculation floating about that Olver is Gaidal Cain, Birgitte's lover who has mysteriously disappeared from Tel'aran'rhiod.  Birgitte sure loves the little guy, and he is young enough that, considering how funky the time differences between TAR and the real world are, he could be Gaidal reborn.  Not to mention the fact that he's ugly as sin.<br />   ANYway, the point is, Birgitte talks about how Gaidal always had more courage than he knew what to do with, and how she provided him with restraint. 'Courage to strengthen, Fire to blind, Music to Dazzle, Iron to bind.&quot;  Who better to provide courage than Olver/Gaidal, then?  Of course, he might just be plain Olver, and not a reincarnated Hero of hte Horn, I admit.  And I know he appeared at Falme less than a year ago, while Olver is nearly ten now, so perhaps not.  But an interesting point, I thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 00:56:43
subject: <b>Thom, not Mat</b>
body:
Egwene had a dream where Thom pulled Moiraine's gemstone out of a fire while Mat had blood streaming down his face. From this I deduce that Thom will be the one to rescue Moiraine. After all, he knows music (harp and flute) and Aludra and her firestrikers are on hand for instant fire<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 05:16:44
subject: <b>On Olver, Peein, Aludra and Mat</b>
body:
Yeah, my previous post I didn't take into consideration that Perrin's axe is steel, but as the man said, Iron makes Steel...<br /><br />As to the Olver/Gaidal correlation, I'm not sure but Olver has enough courage on his own. He also loves the game of snakes and foxes and is trying to 'win' the game. <br />Mat knows that the only way of winning is cheating, and we know Mat isn't too high on the Morals listing...<br /><br />Perrin is very close to where Mat and his entrouge is fleeing to. He has Asha'man, Aes Sedai and Dreamwalking Wise Ones. What a better way to get two of the three Ta'veren together? With Perrin's aide, Thom can realize Egwene's dream, save Moiraine, and Mat can give the Finn's the asskicking they deserve. <br /><br />It just seemed like a good place for them to get together and go and get Moiraine...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'In the softly spoken words of the Virgin Mary: &quot;Come again?&quot;'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-13 20:13:41
subject: <b>Thom will Rescue Moiraine</b>
body:
I belive that it was Egwene that dreamed of, and i quote &quot;Thom Merrilin reaching into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangeled around Moirine's forehead<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mogget<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 00:13:00
subject: <b>Mat will give up his eye</b>
body:
I think that the price to leave finnland will be for Mat to give up an eye, to take back moiraine, who undoubtedly would have some dire news...<br /><br />Or giving up &quot;half the light of the world&quot; could also mean giving up his wife, but there are too many references to mat only having one eye, one dream of egwenes that has him balancing an eye on a scale with the world...


created: 2002-07-25 11:46:03
subject: <b>Re:Mat will rescue</b>
body:
I think a few of you hit on the right thing. Thom is with Matt so if Matt goes so does Thom. Egeanin and her friends are also with the group, Renna and Seta who alread know they can channel, linking with the 2 or 3 aes sedai they helped escape from the kennels would be plenty enough power to use a portal stone (although that might not be how they do it). But i agree with the few who said Thom is the key to rescueing Morainne. There have been too many things pointing to Thom rescuing Morainne. I also believe Thom may be developing feelings for her. In TSR he catches himself thinking about what a good woman she was &quot;laughing at his quibs&quot; etc.. Also lets not forget at the beginning when blue sparks came from Thom and the neverborn. And min seeing Thom juggling blue fire or something like that.


created: 2002-08-01 23:02:53
subject: <b>makes sense</b>
body:
this theory really makes alot of sense.  Instead of going through the tower which seemingly has no door, they just go to the other, uh, dimension, i guess is the word, and poof, they're there.  This would also explain why every time Mat looked out the window in the Aelfin's place it looked the same, kind of how it was all blurry in the world Rand was in in tGH


created: 2002-08-14 21:13:18
subject: <b>Who says Moiraine needs to be &quot;rescued?&quot;</b>
body:
RJ has spent a lot of time manuerving Mat and company in the direction of ToJ, but I feel, having read the dust jacket of CoT, that providing relief from pursuit will be the purpose of the Eelfinn.  Mat had to be rescued from them, but Moiraine is much more savvy about the way things work that she set the price ahead of time and is merely doing her time.  More speculation should be spent on exactly what she's going to get out of the bargain.<br />Matt Gaidin's observation about Olver and the wavy lines is right on, though.


created: 2003-04-01 16:27:58
subject: <b>Perhaps ...</b>
body:
That is a stellar theory and it correlates with my own. I think that the rescue of Moiraine is just the chance our main boys have been in line for to get together and kick some butt. Rand is the only one who has used a portal stone and the only one that knows the symbol for the &quot;real&quot; world, so he needs to be there and Perrin is the only one that has any knowledge (thru Birgitte) about the tower so he needs to go too. I think the rainbow in their head's is drawing them together to rescue Moiraine before the Last Battle. I think that only together is their courage the strongest and I think Mat is Music, Rand is fire and Perrin is Iron.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A little bit of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br />A little bit of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />A whole lot of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 00:31:13
subject: <b>Great comments!</b>
body:
This is definately one of the very cool things about the Wotmania. Re-reading old posts. As far as the Portal Stones go, why not? I dont think its the only way to get there, but it looks like its definately one they will take. As far as who goes, here is my take on it. Thom is Music. He is going to be the one who rescues Mo, according to Min, he is the most accomplished musician in the bunch and always has his instruments handy. Mat is Fire. With Aludras help to be sure. Mat is also Iron. What is the Ashanderi made of? &quot;Iron to Bind&quot; Seems like the thing was already used to do that once to Mat, around the neck in the Avensedora in Ruidean. The steel is made of iron thing seems a bit to convenient. Also, I dont buy the Gaidal/Olver thing. Olver is sweet and cheerful. Gaidal is cranky. And Olver is much to old.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-20 14:07:19
subject: <b>Just a thought on &quot;light of the world&quot;</b>
body:
This has probably been said before, but seeing it mentioned earlier spurred this thought... Mat giving up &quot;half the light of the world&quot; probably refers to him giving up one of his eyes.  2 eyes = full light of the world (full vision), 1 eye =  half the light of the world.


created: 2005-09-01 10:23:51
subject: <b>Couple of things:</b>
body:
First off:<br /><br />Tuon learning to channel<br />Submitted by rebelst     on 7/4/2002 12:54:34 PM  <br />It seems pretty damn far fetched to me to think that Tuon, the heiress to the entire Seachan empire, would so easily accept the fact that she herself is a marath'damane, and even more unlikely that she would willingly accept being taught by a bunch of heretic marath'damane who haven't even sworn the Oaths. It would be very poor writing on RJ's part to churn out something so duex ex machina. <br /><br /><br />Actually, this was already brought up a few times, so it wouldn't be &quot;duex ex machina&quot;.  Tuon mentions training her damane as her favorite thing to do.  When Egeanin is stabbed by Renna, and she reveals the secret that sul'dam are women who can learn to channel, the look on Tuon's face is one of shock and horror, and Mat thinks to himself &quot;I'm going to marry a woman who can bloody channel!&quot;  (CoT....I'm bookless atm and annoyed since I have 3 copies of the bloody thing and none are to be found!!!)  So RJ has already gone out of his way to make certain we know Tuon is a woman who can be trained.<br /><br /><br /> <br />Secondly:<br /><br />Just a thought on &quot;light of the world&quot;<br />Submitted by nyphron     on 9/20/2004 2:07:19 PM  <br />This has probably been said before, but seeing it mentioned earlier spurred this thought... Mat giving up &quot;half the light of the world&quot; probably refers to him giving up one of his eyes. 2 eyes = full light of the world (full vision), 1 eye = half the light of the world. <br /> <br /><br />It's already be mentioned that Mat is a parallel of Odin (down to his floppy hat and hanging from the Tree of Life to gain wisdom.)  There is also a point where Odin gives up one of his eyes for wisdom.  (Perhaps he loses it to Semirhage protecting Tuon....)<br />Of course, it could also reference the fact that, as the new Emperor of Seanchan (I still can't wait to see his reaction to THAT!!! ), he would command the &quot;Armies of the Night&quot;...and give up HIS half of the world (the part he's used to) to rule lands on the other side of the known world....<br /><br /><br />and finally:<br /><br />Also, I dont buy the Gaidal/Olver thing. Olver is sweet and cheerful. Gaidal is cranky. And Olver is much to old.<br /><br /><br />And Birgitte has said that on occasion, though rare, she HAS been the eldest of the pair.  She also says that time in T'a'R is so different that when he disappeared, it could have been months ago in the RW.  But Olver is 10 you say?  I don't believe the &quot;Reborn&quot; spirits are actually &quot;born&quot; at the time of actual birth.  Take Rand for instance:  he never once heard LTT until AFTER Falme, when he declared himself.  In Olver's case, I believe GCs &quot;rebirth&quot; came right after his mother died: here's a kid who lost EVERYTHING, struggling to stay alive, right smack dab in the middle of a brewing war.  And Mr. Hornblower-ta'veren shows up, and Olver suddenly &quot;bucks up and rolls with the punches.&quot;  I'm not saying that, in most cases, the Heroes are reborn in a &quot;normal&quot; fashion, but I think this time is different, since Mat has already blown the Horn of Valere.  The Heroes are reborn when they are needed; and Olver could certainly use the help!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-06 20:40:19
subject: <b>Possible, yes. Likely?</b>
body:
I don't think so.  It seems fairly clear that Mat will end up with Tuon.  She might already know something of this after her damane had that foretelling, depending on whether or not such a Talent can be forced the way the Seanchan do.<br />  Mind you, I find it rather amusing that the womaniser of the three ta'veren will end up with only one girl, when it seems Perrin may have two, and Rand will have three.  Wouldn't want to be in Perrin's shoes when Faile gets back, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 00:31:33
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
No, Tuon and Mat are too interesting together to make it otherwise. And Mat with Egwene, you must be kidding...where did that possibility spring from?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-07 01:18:54
subject: <b>Stupid</b>
body:
What a flaming fool. Robert Jordan isnt going to mince words like that. It is a given that Mat is going to end up the husband of Tuon. For one thing, that is just semantics and can be argued on almost any point. Why wouldn't Mat marry Tuon? He already admires her 'spunk' and thinks that she is quite pretty when she smiles. And she is interested in him as well. (She did try to buy him after all.) Although they may not be in love at first site, neither was Rand or Perrin with their 'wives.' This is just a stupid post probably one that is just for getting some of those Wse points, whatever they do.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 02:31:16
subject: <b>I doubt this</b>
body:
It is possible, but there was far too much time spent on the dramatic buildup to the meeting for it to be this anti-climatic. Think about it, Mat and Tuon are pretty much perfect for each other. She's pretty, he's good-looking, she's the heiress to the largest empire in the world,  he's the greatest living general (marriage of state here maybe? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ), they're both good fighters, they're both smart, and they're both spunky people.<br />He already thinks she's beautiful, she's spent the last book following him around. Look, at their first meeting, he just walks in, he's dirty, injured, and he's the Queen of Altara's common-born pretty. Not the best resume. But Tuon spends all this time watching him. He knows he'll marry her, and it's odds-on she's so interested because she knows she'll marry him (which could be interesting in the next book.) Moreover, she's also everything he dislikes - noble, sul'dam, and skinny. The irony is great. <br />As for Egwene, Mat is Egwene's friend, not love interest. She was Rand's g-f for a long time, and even when she wasn't, Mat showed no interest in her that way. If that was going to happen, it would have. Besides, she is totally gone on Gawyn if you remember the dream bit (although he is a bit psycho ATM.) Mat and Elayne I could see, but Elayne is Rand's g-f and they too seem to be friends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 04:05:31
subject: <b>Ok...</b>
body:
I'm not going to lie to you...this is the most absurd thing I've read in a long time, and I'm in freakin law school!  Hell, I even submitted a theory a week or so ago that identified Demandred as RJ himself!  Granted, that was fully intended to be humorous...this is absurd...<br /><br />Heh...Mat, the guy who chooses to ignore the Wheel's weaving as much as possible, helps weave the pattern by marrying (read: he's a freakin priest!!!) someone?  Come on...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 04:17:59
subject: <b>Sorry for the double post...</b>
body:
As the title says, sorry for the double post...but Egwene with Mat?  Are you on crack?  Have you read the books?  No, I mean actually read the pages, not looked at them with glazed-over eyes?  From where, in the name of the Light, is this coming from?  I think my &quot;Rand as the Dark One&quot; theory has as much weight behind it as this one...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 05:24:12
subject: <b>You know...</b>
body:
I looked up the definition of 'dragon' in the dictionary, and it really didn't meet the physical description of Rand...<br /><br />Are you kidding me?!?!?!?!?!?!


created: 2002-07-07 08:10:37
subject: <b>I know, I know</b>
body:
yeah yeah, It's stupid.  I don't care.  Egwene with Mat was not my thing, read.  That sprung from another theory someone posted, citing references like how many times Mat said he was going to rescuse &quot;Egwene and others&quot; in Tear (eight, if I'm not mistaken.) and his wierd hesitation when he kneels and kisses the Amyrlin's ring.  he looks up and gulps.  I forget who wrote it, but It's one of those theories that takes something completely absurd and proves it to be possible, if not incredibly likely.<br /><br />As for my theory....eh, i don't care. I didn't mean it to be what's going to happen, I meant it to be another explanation of what has the tiniest particle of a chance to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Dwarven Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster wannabe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 11:48:47
subject: <b>To all those</b>
body:
who disregard this theory as stupid, it's not like there are that many new things to talk about seeing as how the last book came out so long ago.<br /><br />Plus, doesn't RJ <i>thrive</i> on creating these little loopholes. Look at all the prophecies...we have seen that so many of them aren't cut and dry and this one also could be as well.<br /><br />Of course, it's not very likely in this case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 12:19:56
subject: <b>It's not like I believed it but...</b>
body:
Wouldn't that make Mat's jaw drop. I mean, he's been so prepared that he must marry that Daughter of the nine Moons. I personaly think that Tuon and Mat will end up as husband and wife but it's nice to think about the other option.


created: 2002-07-07 14:36:21
subject: <b>UUUUUhhhhhhhh............. no.</b>
body:
And to those non believers, Mat DID/DOES have a thing for Egwene.<br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=514&amp;Category=Dragonfriend<br /><br />That was something pretty original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, I think that this is an example of someone reading a bit too much into wordplay, but it's more original than most things I've seen in the past few weeks. Way to think outside of the box!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 22:54:44
subject: <b>Laughing Face</b>
body:
The thing that you forgot to mention was that the Foxes spoke in the old tongue. Now we know that 'marry' in the old tongue may mean something completely different in the new tongue. The question is - Did the Foxes look above Mat's head and give marraige a new tongue meaning or an old tongue meaning?<br /><br />This could be Min's Laughing Face which in no way means something about his personality. (Otherwise Nynaeve would have an angry face and Elayne with a chin-lifted face  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  )<br /><br />Mat is going to be the subject of a huge practical joke.<br /><br />&quot;Never a glimmer of a thought crossed his mind of kissing her (Tuon)&quot;.<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-07 23:05:31
subject: <b>Hawkwing's Voice</b>
body:
Just another matter  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Bring yourself 3-4 books down the track.<br /><br />Mat has blown the HoV to rally the forces of light in Illian. Would the Seanchan see Mat as Hawkwing's representative - Hawkwing's Voice perhaps?<br /><br />Mat is going to eventually be held in VERY high esteem by the Seanchan. Anything is possible<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-08 10:01:02
subject: <b>I think you have way too much time on your hands.</b>
body:
Here, I think is another example of someone out thinking themselves.  I suppose it may be possible but it definitly isn't likely.  (I use the word possible in the same sense that it is possible that Rand suddenly realizes he is bisexual and has a threesome with LTT and Lan!)<br /><br />Why am I so harsh?  One of my favorite sayings is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'   Mat marrying Tuon fits on several levels from personal to creating a plot device to bring the Seanchen to Rand's side (potentially).  It also fits the vision of Mat with 2 ravens on his shoulder, etc..  Sure we can envision other scenarios, Mat with Egwene for instance.  (Personally, I agree with Ruriha Sedai above, that Mat with Elayne (or even Nynaeve) would make a much more interesting couple.)  None of these options are likely though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 11:38:50
subject: <b>Why the basic argument is logically flawed....</b>
body:
It only holds water if the characters speak English!  English as is currently spoken in our world.  But this is a fantasy world.  That speaks a common language that is derived from the Old Tongue.  Which most certainly is not English. How can you apply an English language nuance to a fictional world that speaks whatever language evolved there?  Even in our world, it is common for other languages to have entirely different words for thoughts that can be expressed by the same word in English.  So why would we assume that the quirks of English would apply to a totally fictional world and language system?  And please don't tell me that the Mosk and Merk references, or the &quot;Mercedes symbol&quot; mean that we can make this sort of logical leap.  First of all, that's a totally different argument, whether those references are meant to tell us that this is our world or if they are just &quot;easter eggs&quot;.  Second, even if we accept for the sake of argument that WOT takes place in our world, we would still have to assume that they speak English for the definition to be relevant.  It just doesn't make sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 16:05:58
subject: <b>Good!</b>
body:
I like the idea of Mat marrying off Tuon.  Also who said Matt doesn't  have a thing for Egwene?  That someone suggested that shows once more what little most people see or comprehend.  These same people have no problem running someone down who came up with something new.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 17:27:41
subject: <b>Good thinking</b>
body:
Nice lateral thnking, I just think that RJ didnt consider that when he wrote the passage.  I have never seen it mentioned before, as for its likelyhood hmmmmmmmmmm


created: 2002-07-08 22:54:39
subject: <b>Tuon's marraige</b>
body:
To bind the Seanchan to serve him. The word 'bind' suggests an involuntary forcing together of two things. The whole kidnapping episode in WH gives the impression that this kidnapping will be a way for Rand to control the Seanchan. The idea of Mat 'politically' marrying Tuon to bind the Seanchan to Rand has probably been killed off by WH.<br /><br />This leaves Mat either: <br /><br />'3 times' marrying Tuon - as per Egwene's dreams of &quot;Mat wrestling with a Seanchan women who places an invisible leash on him&quot; and &quot;Ravens clutching at his shoulders - which he was unaware of - defiance (Mat shouting 'I'll marry when I'm good' and ready in TSR) and grim acceptance crossed his face (Mat says softly 'she's my wife' in WH)<br /><br />Or<br /><br />Mat marrying for love.<br /><br />Please please RJ don't give us another soppy love story. (50% of the real world couples break-up). Let Mat end up at the end of WoT being free, sitting in an inn with a girl on his knee rather than Seander. Either that or let him end up with Birgitte and raise Olver as a son (they are way too compatible)<br /><br />Mat mutters and tugs his face mask &quot;What was all that twisting about when he was spilling his eyes over you&quot;<br />


created: 2002-07-09 13:25:01
subject: <b>Mat'd be better off with the Do9M</b>
body:
I'm serious.  Then again we can watch him kick Gawyn's but all over again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Something in him flickered and died, he didn't know what.  Something.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 09:41:25
subject: <b>My instantaneous thought was as above</b>
body:
this only works in English, and despite my support of the WoT-is-Earth theories, I don't think either old or new tongue is English (though a very few words like kaf-coffee are related, so too are some few current English words very dimly related to, say, East Asian languages at times).<br /><br />However, you know, the book is written in English (for most people, this would be a bugger for people with translated texts), and I can imagine that very occasionally different wordplay applies to prophecies.  I don't believe the theory, but there is a distinct possibility.  No, make that a very indistinct possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.<br /><br />And, besides, it may be a non-English word that conforms to the dictionary definition of the English word &quot;marry&quot;, you never know.<br /><br />Nevertheless, this theory gets the old thumbs down.  Congratulations, however, on your unique thoughts on the subject.<br /><br />I think Scorp was overly harsh, how does a person know who will mince words?<br /><br />I can't believe I never thought of Mat being the &quot;voice&quot; of Hawkwing, as the one a few above put it, that is good thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 18:34:00
subject: <b>Prah-fo-cee?</b>
body:
Well, simple put, if a prophecy was clear cut and simple, it would really not be a prophecy, but a prediction. Prophecies are supposed to be mysterious, like a prophet (simmilar root). But any way, the only way to look at a prophocy and fully understand it is to look at it in its original language, just like poetry. When any thing translated from language to language, a little meaning is lost. Blast it, look a nostridamus wrote his prophecies... i think the  style is quatraine...but he mixed it by using three or four languages in the same phrase. I do believe it would be spanish, greek franch, and latin. Even so, translating this prophecy from old to new really did not matter, for Matrim knew both as a &quot;first language&quot;. So to him the prophecy is &quot;marry&quot;. Even if the foxes (who ever the people are who live on the twisted door) spoke every other word in old and the rest of the phrase in new, we haft to still realize that NONE of us is fluent in the old/new tounge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />exccept a select few; see the pick-up lines to get the effect...)* we have to assume that if RJ first language was english, and the books are wrote in english, we have to go by english. but that little &quot;to&quot; with marry means a completly different approach than just &quot;marry&quot;. Final example An estate is to be divided into equal parts between a man three sons; Tom, Dick and Harry. How much did each son get? Equate the importance of this to   the word &quot;to&quot;<br /><br />If this make no sense what so ever, i understand, i have i highly erratic thought pattern and my typing is horrendous.<br /><br />In the truth and the light,<br />Tski


created: 2002-07-15 15:28:41
subject: <b>Interesting possibility</b>
body:
Good theory. I don't think anyone else caught that. However slim the chances are of it happening, it's still a good theory. I enjoy good theories... too bad there are so few of them. And what happened to the humorous theories? When was the last time one of those was posted?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 16:08:49
subject: <b>ahhh, excellent</b>
body:
Thanks, everyone, for your posts, especially after my last one.  It's nice to get real feedback instead of belligerent crap.  I don't even know if I believe my theory myself, but I just thought &quot;hey, this could turn out differently.&quot;  so, thanks, everyone, for your feedback.  I had forgotten the Old Tongue thing with the prophecy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Dwarven Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster wannabe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 23:07:30
subject: <b>Sorry...</b>
body:
Sorry if anyone wrote this, but it was late and I missed the last few.  I think that Tuon and her servant Selucia already knew that something of this sort was going to happen.  Their reactions, when Mat said: &quot;she is my wife&quot; winters heart page 588. Same page, I think, Selucia talks about this being forgiven, besides the &quot;omens&quot; and Tuon kinda smirks, &quot;as if she suddenly knew a secret.&quot;  Seems to me there will be a wedding, not a marrying.


created: 2002-11-07 01:12:26
subject: <b>Read back to when Tuon was on the ship</b>
body:
Hey Hey,<br />Just a quick note that this theory is incorrect for a few reasons. One of the first being that if you refer back to the scene where tuon is introduced and she is all upset at having lost her temper at the damane (cant recall her name) who was a captured Aes Sedai that has the ability to foretell or read tea leaves or something like that. Tuon got upset at the damane's reading. Made her sul'dam switch the poor damane for reading something that wasnt pleasing to tuon. So back to my point ... later on she tries to make it up to the damane and tells her sul'dam to sooth the damane's welts. Then we shift to the scene when Mat walks in on tylin (the queen of Ebu Dar ... please excuse any spelling mistakes with names) he is mega upset and he walks in on the queen with suroth and tuon and tuon's voice and her jin'toh or whatever (the blond buxom woman that raised tuon). Tuon offers to buy Mat. offers to pay i think double or something.<br />Later on Tuon starts stalking Mat. Tuon Sends of Suroth and tylin (since I am sure I misspelt their names the queen and the seanchan conqurer in charge of the return) I think tuon sends tylin off cause she wanted to remove tylin from the picture and wanted to in a way have Mat all to herself to look at. <br />Last scene she follows Mat into the stables. WHAT IS SHE DOING THERE. says AHA so the toy wishes to leave. then when mat lunges for her she starts pulling some kung fu moves on his limpin a$$.<br />Lets review all this. Both characters get their futures read. Mat a long time before tuon. So he knows for a while that his wife is going to be the daughter of the nine moons. Tuon gets her fortune read by the Aes Sedai damane. And its obviously something distastfull like maybe say. Your husband will be of those who stole your rightfull land. Or something of the sort. Or you will marry a gambler who is a toy who is a soldier who is a thousand men.<br />Tuon has a thing for Mat. And so the marriage theoretically will take place.<br />das all.


created: 2002-11-30 12:58:56
subject: <b>They speak English in WoT</b>
body:
Remember Min's pun of toh and toes in WH (A Lily in Winter)?  That's only possible if the Old Tongue word toh sounds like the WoT-speak word for the digit on the end of your foot.  There was another instance of an English language pun (which I do not recall right now) elsewhere as well<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 22:23:59
subject: <b>just checkin' out my sig.</b>
body:
just ignore<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 15:10:02
subject: <b>Pardon me for piling on.....</b>
body:
But there is a thought which hasn't been explored clearly in all of this thread, which frankly surprises me. I too believe the original post, whether in jest or serious, while semantically possible, is absurd to the story progression. Mat will be wed to Tuon. <br /><br />Consider the internal POV thoughts of each of our Ta'veren regarding the ideal wife. <br /><br />If given a choice before choice were taken away, would Rand have seen Min, Aviendha, or Elayne as a potential true love? Most obviously no in his case, it took him awhile to get over the idea of Egwene. It took a fair bit of time for each to grow on him as a romantic concept. Most dramatically with Aviendha, of course, and even after the &quot;event in the tent&quot; in Seanchan, they each did their best to ignore the other, and deny what they felt.<br /><br />As for Perrin, Zarine Bashere, noble born of Saldaea, is the furthest possible thing from what he ever envisioned for himself. Someone whom he had to shout at and all but do physical violence to in order to gain respect and adoration? Not Perrin's style in the least. No, the calm, quiet, comfortable goodwife for this blacksmith, burn the Pattern.<br /><br />Which brings us to Mat. It is learned from early parts of the story that he prefers common women, those with some meat on their bones, and most preferably a bit older than he and with no monogamous compunctions. His experience as Tylin's &quot;pet&quot; have magnified his distaste for noblewomen if anything. And so it is eminently fitting that he gets a teenager, boyishly slim, who fights nearly better than him and expects everyone to kneel when she breathes. Perfect poetic justice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 01:05:26
subject: <b>Wake UP please!</b>
body:
People, I have to agree have any of you even read the books at all.  The reason why Mat kept saying he was going to have to rescue Egwene in Tear was a very simple one.  He, and the others, were brought up to protect their women no matter what happens.  For example look how Rand feels whenever he thinks a woman died because of and or for him.  Perrin was the same way when in EoW when Elyas looked at him due to him saying, Of couse I love, not in that way.  Like a sister. (something along those lines)  The Emond's Fielders all grew up in a very small and close knit community and of course they would feel affection for one another.  It is only natural for Mat, or the other to want to rescue the girls from any kind of trouble.  Mat will not marry Egwene, she would not allow it she has stated that she will bond Gawyn and marry him.  I suggest that you all get CoT and read it very carefully that will finally settle this arguement.


created: 2003-04-27 18:08:38
subject: <b>yeah but...</b>
body:
the whole thing about the loop hole is very nice but do you really think that RJ would do that to us his beloved readers...okay he would but also there's that damned smile of hers...plus she hasn't become the daughter of the nine moons.  damn i ruined my own critic.


created: 2003-06-07 18:28:00
subject: <b>unfortunately I disagree...</b>
body:
Matt has already started the marriage process be telling people she is his wife three time.  They will marry. Poor Matt! I can only hope that they marry, bring Seanchan under Rand, free the Damane and then Tuon gets eaten by Trollocs.  She will train him like she does the damanes.


created: 2003-06-12 13:23:40
subject: <b>Lan/Moriaine -- the early years?</b>
body:
I think Tuon/Mat will be a marriage worthy of Jerry Springer--he won't marry her 'cause he'd have to be some sort of preist, and well, child molestation doesn't run in his blood *ducks*.<br /><br />Anyhow, all joking aside, i will say they do get married, and it's similar to when Lan and Moriaine met...where he dropped her into a pond to cool her off, then she dropped the pond onto him...<br /><br />i see a perfect love-hate relationship between the both.  The kind that is born in Trailer Parks acorss america.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When Day and Dream unite the end is near...<br />...you better be prepared.<br /><br />~Blind Guardian</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-17 22:52:14
subject: <b>yay!</b>
body:
I would just like to say that i FULLY support this theory, i wanna see mat with Egwene maybe then that girl will learn some humility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 00:17:43
subject: <b>Eh?</b>
body:
I dunno, that's stretching it kinda thin.  Besides... her reaction to Mat when he said that he's marrying her, she obviously had it &quot;foretold&quot; for her as well.  Maybe there are more Aelfinn/Eelfinn gates in Seanchan?  Maybe a ritual for the blood to step thru them?  Just a thought.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I really wanna know who this &quot;Valere&quot; cat is, &amp; how he packed a bunch of heroes into a ruddy Horn!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-10 12:07:57
subject: <b>thinking</b>
body:
this is not said that i blelieve in this theory, just an idea. here it goes: could it not bee thought that mat has already married tuon? he did do his part of the seremony by saying 3 times that tuon is his wife. sut it might be a whole different thing whether tuon will marry mat. maybe her fortelling didn&#180;t say for definite that she will marry him, just that it could be...<br /><br />as i said just a thought to ponder upon. personally i would love to see the two of them married for it is a wicked thing to happen, not just for mat but fot tuon as well. i don&#180;t  believe that tuon will get an easy lapdog out of mat... but it would be fun to see her try, wouldn&#180;t it?<br />


created: 2004-03-03 00:13:26
subject: <b>He already named her his wife</b>
body:
It's a good theory, but it can't be true, because at the end of WH, he says 3 times that Tuon is his wife.  At some point in CoT, Egeanin tells Mat that the only thing needed for a marraige to be valid in Seanchan culture is for both the husband and the wife to name each other as such 3 times. He's already done his part.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. <br />                   Janis Joplin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 03:07:03
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
I disagree.  One It's obvious that Tuon is starting to like Mat, and he thinks her beutiful, despite looking like a young boy. So i think they will end up together by both of their choices.  Plus if using your definition of marry, part 2- to perform the marriage ceremony for.  Mat has allready performed the marraige ceremony according to the Seanchan by claiming her as his wife three times.  So going off that literally he could get out of it that way.  Although I still disagree with the theory.


created: 2004-10-19 19:59:43
subject: <b>Wow, such CONTROVERSY</b>
body:
I love the idea of Mat marrying Tuon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And I DO think that he will grow to love her, and she's going to love him. Theirs would be the most interesting relationship in the entire series... So long as it doesn't change, at any rate.<br /><br />Like, it would be nice for Mat to be able to mess around with the servants and waitresses again, but Mat (MAT!) marrying someone is something we all want front row tickets to watch (come on; you know you do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) and there's no WAY Jordan would leave THAT out of the series.


created: 2005-01-07 03:55:10
subject: <b>Matt hasn't married Tuon yet</b>
body:
here is a thought, matt technicaly isn't Seanchan, so why should he care about Seanchan marriage tradition. Even if tuon marry's him the seanchan way they still would have to marry in tworivers for matt to have to care about it.


created: 2005-02-12 19:31:37
subject: <b>This theory is impossible</b>
body:
This theory cannot be true. We already know how Seanchan marriages work, and they don't involve any ceremony. Therefore Mat could not fill that role as it does not even exist.


created: 2006-01-29 22:20:17
subject: <b>Awesome logic</b>
body:
I personally don't agree, because Mat and Tuon did get married, but i think this is very cool and it could have happened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 14:02:26
subject: <b>Sounds Good....</b>
body:
It all seems to fit together. I agree that he either is one of the Forsaken, and if so probably Moridin, or has been tutored/hangs out with one or more. Very cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">- Matt Gaidin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 14:40:31
subject: <b>I doubt it.</b>
body:
I just don't see it happening. Why put himself in a position under Rand? He's the Nae'Blis! Also, what about his being upset when Rand chose Dashiva as one of his Asha'man? The reason he was is because Dashiva (osangar) was working for Moridin, and Taim is working for Demandred. It is intuitivley obvious when e=we see the formation of Forsaken camps in WH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 15:26:45
subject: <b>It's definitely possible...</b>
body:
I agree about the &quot;so called Aiel&quot; comment.  I have always thought that implied he was actually from the AoL, not just being tutored by someone.  It's the same way that even some DF call the Chosen the Forsaken... It's the term they have used all their lives.  And I think only one who has a personal history of peaceful Aiel  would refer to the Aiel as such, especially since the comment &quot;popped out&quot; in front of the man he has to be most guarded with. <br />Another point--wouldn't this be a perfect example of Moridin playing both sides?  Taim being the leader of the Asha'man and all...<br />Either way, this is a really well researched theory, which is always good to see.


created: 2002-07-07 16:32:24
subject: <b>woah</b>
body:
i never caught the whole shaving the beard in heat thing until you pointed it out. <br /><br />it would be surprising if Taim is Moridin. very surprising indeed


created: 2002-07-07 17:03:24
subject: <b>Dashiva...</b>
body:
First, I think Taimidin is just as good a theory as anything else. I've giving up trying to figure out who Taim is and just going to wait for the next book. That being said, I think that Green Gaidin's point that Taim opposed Rand choosing Dashiva's the best support against this theory. The text is, in ACoS ch 2:<br /><br />&quot;Dashiva,&quot; Taim said slowly, studying Rand. He smelled even more surprised than Rand did, and irritated, too. &quot;Corlan<br />Dashiva. From a farm in the Black Hills.&quot;<br />&quot;He will do,&quot; Rand said, but he did not sound sure himself.<br />&#8220;Dashiva is gaining his strength rapidly, but his head is in the clouds often as not. Even when it isn't, he is not always entirely there. Maybe he's just a daydreamer, and maybe the taint on saidin is touching his brain already. Better for you to choose Torval or Rochaid or&#8212; &quot;<br />Taim's opposition seemed to sweep away Rand's uncertainty. &quot;I said Dashiva will do. Tell him he's to come with me, then turn the prisoners over to the Wise Ones and go. I don't intend to stand here all day arguing. Perrin, ready everyone to move. Find me when they are.&quot; Without another word he strode off, Min clinging to his arm, and Nandera and Sulin like shadows. Taim's dark eyes glittered; then he was stalking away himself, shouting for Gedwyn and<br />Rochaid, Torval and Kisman. Black-coated men came running.<br /><br />If Taim works for Demandred, then he may not want Dashiva near Rand. But, if we have Taimidin, then he would want Dashiva near Rand.<br /><br />First, Taim is 'surprised', which doesn't support either case. Taimidin may be pleasantly surprised Rand's picking Osan'gar. This is further supported by the phrase, &quot;Taim's opposition seemed to sweep away Rand's uncertainty.&quot; Maybe he's using simple reverse psychology. He no doubt knows Rand doesn't like him, so what better way to get what he wants than to oppose it? &quot;Taim's dark eyes glittered; then he was stalking away himself&quot; doesn't support either case neither. Maybe he's not happy with Rand choosing Dashiva, but Taim's always been a man who never just walks, but stalks.<br /><br />The only thing is that Taim was 'irritated'. If Taim is Moridin, then one would expect him to be amused, rather than irritated. Only thing I can think for this is pretty weak: maybe Taimidin wanted to name Dashiva himself, or maybe he wanted Dashiva free to run other errands for him.<br />


created: 2002-07-07 17:24:40
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
The issue of taim's suprise and irritation at rand picking dashiva pretty much shatters an excellent and well researched theory. nonetheless, is is possible that taimidin didnt know dashiva's true identity at the time? perhaps he was irritated that some random guy was picked over his DF pawns? i dont know, my memory is rusty.<br /><br /><br />I think that taim's distaste for swords is an important element to this debate. ishamael was an avid blademaster.. why would he disfavour sword use among his own troops like taim does? maybe because rand beat him in a duel? <br />$h!+ i cant wait for this next book <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Drinker of Alcohol<br />Guardian of the Light<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 18:30:57
subject: <b>Why not after all</b>
body:
the only BIG evidence against the theory would be the effect of Saa on Moridin (black things in the eyes) but I guess a good inverted Mask of Mirror could take care of that. Aq for the Dashiva thing, I don't think it's that important: his true identity might or might not be known by Taim. Either way it was interfeering with his plan: not putting his own pets (Rochaid and Co) in place or risking an other forsaken not totally under his control to do nasty things to Rand when it wasn't wanted.<br /><br />Anyway, even if it reveals false, I love the theory<br /><br />Ashaman Drake


created: 2002-07-07 19:03:13
subject: <b>Sa?</b>
body:
Would Moridin/Taim be able to control the Sa that flicker through his eyes?<br /><br />Also, if we accept that Moridin aided Rand in Shadar Logoth against Sammael, why did LTT not freak out then?<br /><br />Did LTT freak out the two times Rand directly faced Ishamael, or was that before he heard the voices?<br /><br />Interesting theory, but I sense some holes.  Just not sure.


created: 2002-07-07 19:58:18
subject: <b>absolutely no way</b>
body:
every piece of evidence that was given could count towards any of the male forsaken.  Or it could count towards Taim being an agent of a Forsaken.<br /><br />Demandred is just as good as Moridin, but the Moridin idea just doesn't mesh all that well, for the same reasons that the Demandred one doesn't.<br /><br />Taims job would simply be too time-consuming.  Moridin appears to be very busy, just spying on people and plotting.  Taim's piece would be too much work for him.<br /><br />In addition, there is the major, major problem of both Dashiva and all of Demmy's agents already being in the Ashamen.  Ishmael already had his spy in Dashiva and didn't really need another one.  Plus, if Morry really was Taim, he probably would have done something about Gedwyn, Kisman, ect.  Surely he would not allow men of such high stature to work for someone else.<br /><br />Finally, there is the issue of Ishmael's personal style.  He has never been one to take high positions.  Rather, he is the one behind the scenes, who likes to whisper in people's ears, and manipulate other people to do work for him.  <br /><br />In aPoD, we see a very interesting quote by Moridin:<br /><br />?Not to Tar Valon. To Al Thor?  To that rebel band of Aes Sedai?  In all three places he had eyes, some did not know they served him.?  PoD, Unweaving<br /><br />My point is that Ishmael is very deft and has absolutely no reason to grab high status positions like Taims.  Rather he manipulates.  Ishmael's style is a little like Lanfear's in a way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 21:36:22
subject: <b>addictive nature of TP</b>
body:
I would like to further extrapolate on Matrimony Cauthon's remark that being Taim would be too time consuming, though I would first like to say kudos on a well researched theory.  But I must also disagree.  If Moridin were Taim, then for sure and certain he'd be around lots of male channelers all the time, leaving him not a lot of time to use the TP (people would start to notice that he was channeling things and yet they couldn't sense anything coming from him OP-wise).  As has been said in many places, the TP is more addictive than most illicit drugs plaguing the streets today.  Moridin acting as Taim would severely limit the time he could spend figuratively pouring Drano through his body.<br />Finally, assuming Moridin is Ishamael, he is beyond certifiably nuts.  We're talking really really over the edge, get a padded cell and a straitjacket nuts.  Taim is just too sane.  Moridin would have to be a reeeeeally good actor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 21:38:15
subject: <b>Finally got it posted!</b>
body:
I've been working on this idea for a little while, and I must say I'm glad to see it up here on the post.  It's good to see other people's thoughts on this topic, and hopefully there'll be more to come.  Just a few more of my own.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Finally, there is the issue of Ishmael's personal style. He has never been one to take high positions. Rather, he is the one behind the scenes, who likes to whisper in people's ears, and manipulate other people to do work for him. </b></font><br /> Ishamael is/was Nae'blis!!  What higher position is there for one of the Forsaken??  Certainly he's a manipulator, but that is one reason why I think he might be Taim.<br />  I assume none of the other Chosen knew of his return at the time, and none now know that he's Taim.  His reaction when Rand chose Dashiva can be explained in any number of ways without doing away with my theory: maybe Moridin wanted to keep an eye on him for a while, maybe Moridin wanted Aginor to make some new shadowspawn (not likely, I know), maybe he was just surprised Rand picks the only Forsaken hiding in the group.  Taim's excuses were a bit weak.<br />  As for what Burr said about my only real evidence being the beard, and the so-called Aiel comment I must say I'm disappointed no-one else seems as interested in that episode with the Gray Man in Rand's chambers as I am.  If you read Rand's encounter with the wanderer in SL, it took him a little while to realise that saidin was not being used.  In the attack by the gray man, there is no mention of Rand feeling the gateway Taim supposedly travelled in, and he even accuses Taim of 'sneaking in', which just should not have been possible, unless Taim slipped up and travelled using the TP.  Hence his response, in which he actually explains that he made a gateway onto the baclony.<br />  There was also the fact that if Taim didn't know the Gray Man was there, how did he see it quickly enough, or at all, to kill it??  It's not as though being in the Void is any help with this.  On the other hand, I assume that the Chosen themselves would be able to see Gray Men, otherwise giving them orders might be rather difficult.<br />  Finally, Da Mookster responded to a number of MB posts of mine on this subject with the point that Moridin only ever uses the TP, never the OP.  With that in mind, consider this quote from APOD Ch2 'Unweaving': <font size="-1"><b>&quot; It was possible they were carrying away some item he could use- an angreal attuned to men, perhaps- but the chances were small.&quot;</b></font>  This is Moridin's thoughts here.  At first I considered this proof that Moridin must also use the OP, and further evidence to support my train of thought, but the way it is worded, I'm not so sure.  Would an angreal attuned to a man allow a man to channell more of the TP than he could otherwise do unaided??  Or are they saidin/saidar specific?  There's a whole new theory in that one!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 21:48:29
subject: <b>Taim sane??</b>
body:
I don't know.  Even Rand wonders about Taim's sanity when Taim first shows up in Caemlyn.<br /> Secondly, was Ishy a bladesmaster?  I know Demandred and Be'laal were, but Ishy?  I thought he was too much the academic for such things.<br /> Finally, Moridin/Taim could easily find enough time to do what he has to do as Nae'blis under the guise of Travelling to find new students, or going to see Rand, or even 'private tuition' as is mentioned in APOD.  No one else at the BT would be able to feel him channel if he was using the TP, so he'd be able to come and go as he pleased.  With the discipline enforced at the BT, I hardly imagine he'd need to worry if he told his henchmen he didn't want to be disturbed...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 22:57:11
subject: <b>If Taim was Moridin,</b>
body:
Just got this thought. If Moridin is Taim, then when Rand was using the Chodan Kal, wouldn't he have sent an army of Asha'man loyal to him to stop Rand? Taim's got to have built up a fairly sizeable stash of followers. Mostly likely, all the full Ashaman and his men, seeing as how Taim's the only one who can promote them, and they all live in his 'palace' (this mentioned in WH: Prologue) I'd think that stopping Rand from cleansing saidin would be a far greater issue than not breaking his cover.


created: 2002-07-08 01:49:23
subject: <b>Blademaster ??</b>
body:
Just to put it staight, ishy fights Rand over Falme with a staff, so how can you consider him a blademaster.<br /><br />I quite like this theory even if I do not agree. I think that being the M`Hael must be a full-time job and you can not spare time to do your Naeb`lis things.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 02:07:44
subject: <b>Sigh</b>
body:
Ishy was NOT a blademaster, nor was Demandred, if memory serves. Dem was a GENERAL, a position he hold COMPLETLEY apart from that of a soldier, and that was a major Taimandred point; he didn't want the Asha'man to learn the blade as Dem would not.<br /><br />They are both behind the scenes I-want-to-control-everything- kind of guys.<br /><br />Be'lal was a blademaster and personally responsible, along with Lews Therin, for creating Swordfighting for the purposes of war from a blodless type of fighting. A bloodless sword fight, of which Sammael was world champoin. It's all in the Guide <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 05:39:00
subject: <b>In response to rebelst....</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Just got this thought. If Moridin is Taim, then when Rand was using the Chodan Kal, wouldn't he have sent an army of Asha'man loyal to him to stop Rand? Taim's got to have built up a fairly sizeable stash of followers. Mostly likely, all the full Ashaman and his men, seeing as how Taim's the only one who can promote them, and they all live in his 'palace' (this mentioned in WH: Prologue) I'd think that stopping Rand from cleansing saidin would be a far greater issue than not breaking his cover. </b></font><br />  This is an excellent argument, and the only response I can think of is another question: if he has so many totally loyal Asha'man, why didn't he send more to kill Rand in Cairhien?  Maybe he'd run the risk of revolt if he tried to command too many Asha'man to attack Rand, or maybe Logain's presence in the BT has changed things too much.  On the other hand, maybe he just wanted to test the loyalties of his fellow 'Chosen'.  <br />  Logain's a full Asha'man, isn't he?  And he doesn't live in Taim's palace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 08:27:12
subject: <b>On Ishy and the OP....</b>
body:
I can't think of any instance where we see either Ishy or Moridin channeling saidin.  Like I said in your MB post of this theory, in the EOTW prologue, Ishy says, &quot;I follow a different power now.&quot;  And whenever he channels, darkness is somehow involved, lights seeming to dim, waves of darkness surrounding him etc.  In the ending of EOTW, his black cord is described as absorbing light. In the battle at Falme, blackness surrounds him.  In the final fight at the Stone, the blackness seems to absorb all light. All characteristic of the TP.  As Moridin, it either plainly states that he uses the TP, or as in the case of Shadar Logoth, that Rand can't sense saidin being used.  As someone else pointed out, the TP is way more addictive than the OP.  One of Demandred's POV's has his thoughts about it being unable to stop once you start using it frequently.  Ishy/Moridin also seems to view the OP with disdain, as inferior.  All the Forsaken are pretty pleased with themselves.  But Ishy/Moridin carries arrogance to the next level.  I can't see him using something he views as inferior, especially now that he is the only one with permission to use the TP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 09:29:47
subject: <b>In Shadar Logth</b>
body:
If Moridin was in Taim's body, as somebody suggested, then wouldn't Rand have recognized him in Shadar Logoth?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-08 11:34:35
subject: <b>Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
Considering his power to assume an inverted Mask of Mirrors whenever he wishes, the only thing we know for certain as far as descriptions go is that if Moridin didn't want to be recognized, he wouldn't be.  In truth, we don't even know if his appearance at Shayol Ghul is what he <i>really</i> looks like, so we don't even have a reliable standard to judge against when it comes to his Shadar Logoth appearance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 11:48:19
subject: <b>It becomes tiresome.....</b>
body:
....the constant reliance on The Mask of Mirrors to smooth over rough spots in theories.  Whenever one objects that the person involved is too short, too tall, too this, too whatever, the answer is invariably:  Mask of Mirrors.  We can make a case for just about anyone using that simple formula can't we?  Kidnap, Semi wring 'em dry, Mask of Mirrors.  Viola!  Demandred is now Rhuarc, Moridin is Galad,  Mesaana is Lara, Mistress of Kitchens.  Or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 12:32:26
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I must say reading ur theory has only firmed my belief that Taim is Moridin. The fact that Taim mentioned only Demmy and Sammy SCREAM that he knew that baal and rhavin(of course) are dead and that ishmael is also &quot;dead.&quot; The fact that he also uses AoL language sometimes only further strengthens my belief that Taim is Moridin. <br /><br />~Counter Mage<br /><br />-Defender of All Eval-


created: 2002-07-08 12:32:50
subject: <b>I think Rand would have said something....</b>
body:
after all, he knows what Taim looks like and he saw Moridin when Moridin helped him kill Sammy in SL.  If a mask of mirrors was being used to acount for subtle diff. or if Moridin was actually reborn in Taims body then Rand would have at least though that the stranger in SL resembled Taim.  This leads me to believe that they don't look at all alike other then the black hair and height(I'm sure many people would match that discription).


created: 2002-07-08 14:44:06
subject: <b>It's an interesting theory....</b>
body:
but I favour the &quot;Taim is a darkfriend&quot;, possibly in the employ of Demandred, over this one.<br /><br />A couple of reasons. I agree Moridin is probably too busy to be impersonating Taim for any length of time. Moridin has more of a watcher persona and seems to meddle with Rand and his friends only through manipulating the Forsaken. Neither of these is hard evidence, I suppose, but more a feeling.<br /><br />I'm surprised no-one has mentioned a particular scene I have in my mind where Rand is struggling with his sanity in (maybe) TDR, where Taim is present. Based on my limited recall, (lending books to friends is always a mistake) there is a discussion between Rand and Taim, or rather a comment by Taim about how he seems to be immune to the taint on Saidin. Now, when Rand is fighting Asmodean I'm sure there is a description of how oaths to the Dark One &quot;peel off&quot; the taint on Saidin before it reaches the person using it. I always put the two together and thought Taim must be a darkfriend due to his lack of any response to the taint.<br /><br />I suppose this could be interpreted for or against your theory. But I can't help the feeling that Taim is a merely a student of a Forsaken, rather than one of the big wigs himself.<br /><br />Moridin has never used the OP, in any of his scenes, has he? Yet Taim does, when Rand is accosted on his first(maybe second) visit to the Black Tower. Circumstantial. There's no hard evidence either way, but it has certainly stimulated my interest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 15:51:14
subject: <b>Your evidence proves nothing...</b>
body:
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but there are much simpler, more logical reasons for your arguments.<br /><br />1. LTT goes mad whenever Taim is around. Although this is later seen to happen around other Asha'man, it seems particularly strong around Taim.<br /><br />*Maybe he gets mad because Taim is an arrogant (insert explitive here) who can channel, and LTT is a very proud madman who wants to destroy everyone who can channel, especially if they aren't likeable people!<br /><br />2. Bashere does not recognize him. Taim claims he shaved because of the heat, yet he does not sweat, and later teaches Rand the trick of ignoring heat.<br /><br />*Taim is wanted by the WT.  Maybe he doesn't want to flaunt the fact that he's Saldean, but is too proud to admit it.<br /><br />3. Taim, in trying to prove his identity to Bashere, speaks of himself in the third person: &quot;What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?&quot;<br /><br />*We do not agree with this argument.  Since I just spoke in the royal plural, does that mean that someone is using my wotmania account without my expressed written consent.  I hope not.  This evidence proves nor disproves nothing.<br /><br />4. He then recounts his own use of strong compulsion, something only the Forsaken have been seen to know up to this point.<br /><br />*Nynaeve heals like AS from the age of legend.  There had to have been a Forsaken hidden in the TR to teach her this as she was growing up!<br /><br />5. He knew what the Seal that he gave to Rand was; not something which was exactly common knowledge.<br /><br />*If the guy who gave it to him knew what he was guarding, then I'm sure he'd tell Taim what it was.  He had a perfectly reasonable story for having a Seal.  Just because you think he's lying, doesn't mean he was.<br /><br />6. His knowledge of testing suggests great familiarity with the subject: &quot;The more power that's used the easier it is to detect the resonance. On the other hand, too big a resonance could do unpleasant things to your mind, maybe kill you, so I'll start small.&quot; <br /><br />*Perhaps he accidently killed a couple of people that he tested, and figured out not to use too much of the power.<br /><br />7. He expresses an opinion on Rand's intention to cleanse saidin, his answer suggesting he regards it as being possible, but requiring a great deal of power: &quot;Cleanse saidin,&quot; Taim said softly. &quot; I think that would take more power than you can imagine.&quot; His eyes lidded thoughtfully. &quot; I have heard of things called sa'angreal.&quot; <br /><br />*Perhaps Taim has heard of sa'angreal, and wants to know if Rand has one, so he can steal it for himself.<br /><br />8. Taim seems nearly as strong as Rand.<br /><br />*So is Aginor, Sammael, Demandred, and various other channelers throughout the Ages.  It is possible that strong channelers can be born in the Third Age. After all, Nynaeve and Rand were.<br /><br />9. Taim sees the Gray Man approaching Rand, supposedly without any idea that it was there. Rand, having deduced the presence of the GM from what he could smell, and having seen the door open and shut without anyone apparently entering, still had trouble seeing it. <br /><br />*Perhaps he used the same logical process Rand did.  Sometimes the simplest reason is the right one.<br /><br />10. Rand accuses Taim of 'sneaking in' through his bedroom, which should not have been possible if Taim had Travelled using saidin. Rand should have sensed the gateway.<br /><br />*Maybe he just wanted Taim to use the front door<br /><br />11. Taim refers to the GM as &quot;the soulless.&quot;<br /><br />*So do all Borderlanders.  Throughout tGH, they are referred to as the Soulless by Borderlanders.<br /><br />12. Taim wants to know specifically who sent the GM: &quot;I would give a great deal to be sure. &quot; (That is, he wants to be sure if it was sent by Sammael.)<br /><br />*I once wondered what would happen if I touched the stove in my kitchen as a kid.  Just because you're curious about a dangerous subject doesn't mean you are plotting something inherently evil...although I did cause a lot of trouble as a kid.<br /><br />13. Taim knows about wards.<br /><br />*So does every AS.  So does Rand.  It is possible to learn something by experimenting.<br /><br />14. Taim knows healing.<br /><br />*So does Nynaeve.  <br /><br />15. When Rand threatens Taim into not harming any AS in Caemlyn, and says that if he feels any man channeling in Caemlyn that he will come for Taim, Taim makes an interesting reply:&quot;If Sammael or Demandred decides to taunt you with a few dead AS on your doorstep, my veins are opened?&quot; Here, Taim names the only two surviving male forsaken, not counting those resurrected. He doesn't just say 'male forsaken' which might have actually been just as quick. He seems to have specific knowledge about which Forsaken Rand thinks are dead, and which live.<br /><br />*Perhaps he just rattled off a couple of names.  Just because he picked the names of two living male Forsaken doesn't PROVE anything. <br /><br /><br /><br />(In Ch11 of LoC Taim uses a phrase of speech which would only be used by someone from the AoL: &quot;And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do.&quot; After making this statement, he stops to look at Rand, almost as though he realises he may have made a mistake with this utterance. )<br /><br />Taim could just be of noble birth.  It would explain his knowledge of military tactics, and the fact that he knows Aiel means Dedicated.  When Taim makes that comment about the Aiel, he is trying to cast doubt on their dedication to Rand, therefore, it could just be an insult made by an educated man.  And I've read LoC many times, and I don't recall Taim ever being hesitant unless Rand was going nuts.  Provide a quote if you're going to make this statement.<br /><br />(This would go a long way toward explaining Taim's apparent disregard of danger when faced by Rand full of the OP. In the incident involving the GM in Rand's chambers, Rand is furious with Taim, and full of the OP to boot, and yet Rand feels the power leave him. Taim may as well have replaced the OP with the TP, and is fully confident of his ability to defend himself regardless of what happens.)<br /><br />Or he could realize that if he holds on to the Source much longer, Rand is going to kill him. <br /><br /><br />(The two are physically similar, both being tall - Taim described as being nearly as tall as Rand, and Moridin as being about the same height as Rand- and both have jet-black hair. It would not be difficult for the Mask of Mirrors to account for the few differences seen.)<br /><br />Rhuarc is tall, Lan is tall.  I don't think either of them is a Forsaken.  By this logic, Bael is the most likely candidate for a Forsaken, as he is the tallest person Rand has ever met.  And we didn't meet him until the end of the fourth book.  I think I'm on to something here.<br /><br />Look, I don't mean to be a offensive about this, but why don't we all just lay off on the Demandred theories until the next book comes out.  It is quite obvious that there is not enough evidence to make a strong case for who Demandred is.  This was just my way of venting.  To the author of this theory, I hope ou don't take offense to this.  I'm not trying to bash you, I just think your theory is way off.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-08 17:30:15
subject: <b>I take issue...</b>
body:
with your point 4.<br /><br />From Verin's POV we know compulsion is NOT an easy talent to perform. It involves an extremely complex weave (I rememeber vaguely a description where four threads are left out of the weave, which is allowed to collapse in on itself, leaving no trace). Indeed, it takes Verin many years to piece together the weave used, though this may be due in part to the restrictions she has to work under to learn the forbidden knowlege . <br /><br />Healing on the other hand takes a great many forms and is common among Wilders. The weaves are not as complicated and vary greatly. Your example was not fair.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 18:38:41
subject: <b>Compulsion</b>
body:
Here's a possible explanation. Verin most likely has used Compulsion far far less than Taim. Verin's an Aes Sedai who could be stilled for knowing even a very crude form. Taim doesn't care who sees him do it, doesn't care if he's found out, and doesn't care how much is messes up the subject. Also, Taim's a lot more powerful than Verin. We know that what Verin was doing is very complex, but it may be possible to throw far cruder forms of Compulsion when one doesn't really care about the niceties.<br />Taim's taunting from LOC ch 2, &quot;All they'll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy otherwise.&quot; seems to suggest that he just unleash a crude burst of Compulsion and fuggled the four.<br />It's possible that strength in the OP means both that you can channel stronger weaves, and that you have an easier time channeling complex weaves. Take Nynaeve for example. It was already mentioned that she figured out the AoL healing on her own. Not only that, she was able to weave balefire all on her own. So it could be that Taim, who seems to be only slightly weaker than Rand, would have an easier time figuring out/using Compulsion than middling old Verin.


created: 2002-07-08 19:01:32
subject: <b>blademaster</b>
body:
check out the fight between rand and ishy in book 2, rand notices a heron on ishys staff. this is the symbol of a BLADEMASTER, even though it is a staff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Drinker of Alcohol<br />Guardian of the Light<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 19:02:58
subject: <b>Rebelst put it nicely</b>
body:
Just because Verin has a hard time doing it doesn't mean that someone stronger in the Power would.  We've seen evidence that all our main characters who are channelers seem to have an easier time learning.  Nynaeve learns faster than Egwene.  And Egwene learns very fast.  Heck, Moiraine was one of the strongest AS, and spend the least time as novice and Accepted.  <br /><br />Look at it from the perspective of sports.  Someone who is big, strong and fast naturally tends to do better in sports, and learns the sport better.  And people with less talent, have to work harder to achieve less.  If you're familiar with baseball, it's like comparing Royce Clayton to Alex Rodriguiz.  There's no question who's the more talented, even though both are good enough to play professionally.


created: 2002-07-08 19:15:22
subject: <b>Actually, The_Gholam,</b>
body:
I can't remember the book, but we learn from Verin's POV that there are 2 tricks that wilders brought into the tower manage to teach themselves.  The first is eavesdropping, which was Moiraine's trick as a child, and the second was COMPULSION!  It was a way to make daddy buy her that dress she wanted, or to let her go out with whichever boy she wanted.  As far as I've read, Nynaeve is the only one mentioned who taught herself to heal.<br /><br />So by this definition, Healing might be considered harder to do than Compulsion, considering that more people appear to teach themselves to do this.  I don't think this is true however.  It is more likely that one is not necessarily harder than the other, just different.  It depends on where your talent lies.  Nynaeve's healing is extraordinarily complicated.  I recall Egwene commenting that it was like trying to weave 2 rugs with your feet blindfolded.  I wish I had my books with me, so I could quote these properly.  If anyone can back me up, I'd really appreciate it.


created: 2002-07-08 20:30:06
subject: <b>For Da Mookster</b>
body:
I'm being forced out the door here, so I just don't have time to look for quotes or correct mistakes, but..<br /> If you connect that darkness surrounding Ishy with the TP then I would guess it must increase the more the TP is used, as there doesn't seem to be any mention of it in SL, or when Moggy meets with Moridin.  However, the only place I can recall such darkness being mentioned recently was when Taim was interviewed by Elayne in her throne room in Caemlyn, sorry I can't provide a quote, but she thinks he's surrounded by darkness in a way. <br />  And Moridin, in Ch2 of APOD regards a male angreal as something he might find useful, which would only be if he channeled the OP sometimes.  Even then, the TP would probably be a superior weapon as no-one else can sense it.<br />  As for the time thing, Moridin doesn't appear until Bk7, giving 'Taimidin' all of LOC to get established in the BT.  Actually, the more we've seen of Moridin, the less we've seen of Taim.  <br />  I don't think RJ has portrayed Taim the way he has for no reason, and the terms he uses and the knowledge he has are just too much.  The idea of one of the Chosen teaching such a strong channeler as much as Taim knows seems unlikely, too, as they'd have to be watching their backs all the time.  The Chosen just don't seem to be a very trusting bunch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 21:41:56
subject: <b>I don't think we can say whether Healing or Compulsion is harder.</b>
body:
Nynaeve learned Healing because she was a village Wisdom (or training to be one, or something like that).  How many of the other girls were in that kind of a position?  If they had been, who can say whether or not they would have learned Healing as easily as Nynaeve?  We simply don't know.  <br /><br />On the other hand, we <i>do</i> know that Nynaeve never learned Compulsion, and nearly <i>everybody</i> wants to be able to make other people do what they want.  Can anyone say Nynaeve is not the same way?  So does this mean that Nynaeve <i>failed</i> to learn how to use Compulsion?  Well, we really don't know that either, because we don't know if she ever <i>tried</i>.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 22:35:30
subject: <b>To Lord Rahl</b>
body:
Just read the section on the fight at Falme. Two points, first there is no mention of a heron on Baalzamon's staff at all.<br /><br />Second, when Jordan describe the fight between Rand and Turak, he talks about Rand recognizing the forms that Turak used and then uses the FORM met FORM terminology. Now maybe Rand didn't think like this against Baalzamon (Ishy) because he had a staff, but surely he would have recognized the forms.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 23:30:17
subject: <b>Further thoughts on Taim= Moridin</b>
body:
I have long believed that Taim is Moridin. It is logical.  Why would the Dark One reincarnate Balthamel and Aginor when he could have Ishy? I asked the question  for Glimmers of whether there is a time lag on when the Dark One can reincarnate someone so long as 'suitable' body on ahnd. If not, Ishy/Moridin could have come back sooner than ACOS, when is apparent that he has been around a while already.<br /><br />Taim uses similar speech patterns to Moridin and has similar attitude to Rand. Perrin always thought Taim crazy, as others believe Moridin is.<br /><br />Taim is obviously recruiting for shadow as much as light - who else would be trusted to do this?  He doesn't turn up at end of WH because he has a spot of bother with Logain's faction at BT - timing is perfect.<br /><br />Moridin must do something more with his time than organise tea parties and send Cyndane and Moggy to spy or talk to other Foresaken for him. What better job to do than Taim's?<br /><br />In book 4 where the 3 wondergirls are interrogating their 2 BA captives they have 2 possible BA plots to follow up on - something dangerous to Rand in Tanchico or Taim being set up as bad Dragon REborn. They choose Tanchico and every promptly forgets asbout the alternate plot. Moiraine at the time thought that the Taim plot was actually the correct one and Tanchico likely to be a dud. It struck me that Jordan intends both of the plots to be true and has been fooling everyone as usual.<br /><br />It is possible that Ishy was Taim in books 1 to 3. In book 3, when Rand proclaimed himself, Taim was captured unconscious, hardly surprising when he was skewered by Rand.<br />Then Taim escapes (= when Ishy feeling better) and Taim disappears from view for a while (=when Ishy slugged with Callandor). Taim appears in Caemlyn (Moridin is reborn by this time) and submits to DRAGON REBORN (his words), not Rand.<br /><br />As far as Taim's appearance goes, all the Forsaken appear to use Illusion whenever convenient. <br /><br />That's all I can add to the theory at the moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 23:47:38
subject: <b>Taim's being captured and Ishy's being skewered.</b>
body:
Wasn't Taim in a battle at the time that Rand proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn?  Wouldn't someone have noticed if Taim Travelled out of a battle to fight Rand, considering that he was the most important person there?  Also, if he was unconscious and skewered, how did he manage to get back to where he should be, and what happen to the skewering?  (You can't Heal yourself, after all.)<br /><br />Also, if Ishy was Taim from the beginning, never having truly died, then why does he now appear to have a new body?  Why bother?  After all, up until the time that Taim was captured, Ishy was still in his Ishy body.  If he was previously using a Taim Mask of Mirrors, the disguise should work just as well now.<br /><br />I think Taim must have been Taim at <i>least</i> up until the point that he was captured.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 02:29:39
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
at first it seems right, but then the whole power strength comes into play...Ishy is the only person as strong as Rand, so when Rand asks Taim to hold the power as much as he can, hes weaker than Rand, and at that Point Rand isn't even at his full potential!  I think he has finally reached it now, after using the giant sa'angreal, but i think its too close to Rand to have a Chosen, they already had one, (Dashiva), theres no need to have two, its too risky.  Ishy is Moridin, no question about that however, just like Cyndane is Lanfear, but Taim i think is a turned Channeler, hes definitely up to no good, but i think we are going to see him killed or driven out soon, Moridin is too smart to get that close to Rand again, look what happened last time, he got his but killed


created: 2002-07-09 05:11:08
subject: <b>I think Taim would have plenty of time to mess around.</b>
body:
I kind of like this theory if only cause there is not much solid evidence against it like there is agaisnt those Taimandred theories. Granted the evidence in favour of this theory is not that solid either, it is a lot however. Besides it would finally explain how come Taim has such an indepth knowledge of the one power (come one why would any of the &quot;superior&quot; forsaken deign some darkfriend worthy to teach?). I don't buy it that he merely came up with all that by himself. And it would make sense that Moridin was brought back at about the same time as Aginor and Balthamel so he would have do something.<br /><br />Anyway I merely wanted to point out that I think Taim would have enough time to be Moridin. Which seems one of the main arguments why people think Taim couldn't be Moridin, cause  being M'Hael is a full-time job. But if you read the books you see that Taim resents teaching Asha'man to channel and would rather be more closer to Rand. And eventhough he is being put in charge of teaching he seems to still jump about quite a lot.<br /><br />Anyway what time does Taim have to spend on teaching? I mean after teaching the first Asha'man the basics of channeling he could, and probably did, easily leave the teaching of new guys to those asha'man. It is after all a very tedious job and I think I read that it would take months before any of the Asha'man could channel to a reasonable degree.<br />So I think Taim merely spends time giving extra lessons to those few who he deems worthy and leaves the rest to others, which would give him enough time to do a lot on the side.<br /><br />Also I have always wondered about who ordered those Aiel to beat up that brown ajah Aes'Sedai. Demira Sheriff or something. If Moridin did it that would make sense cause it for sure caused more friction between Rand and the Aes'Sedai. And if Taim and Moridin are the same then he would be close enough to stage such an attack.


created: 2002-07-09 10:59:55
subject: <b>RE: In response to rebelst....</b>
body:
He didn't send more to assassinate Rand because either it was all Dashiva/Aginor's idea or he wanted to take precautions against failure.  I favour the idea that Aginor planned the attack.


created: 2002-07-09 12:54:21
subject: <b>No!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Rand does not know Moridin,  he knows Ishamael!  Why would he use the mask of mirrors to disguise himself when Rand,  LTT would not recognize him!  He could have gone to the black tower as himself!  Why does LTT rant when Taim is close?  Because he looks like Demandred &amp; from what we can tell acts like him aswell!  But dont get me wrong,  there is no way in hell i'm saying he is Demandred or Moridin for that matter!  He's TAIM!!!!!!!!!!  A male channeler who has either been turned or went over to the dark willingly because of jealousy!  If the latter then he was most likely tutoured by one of the forsaken then giving the role of recruitment officer for the new dreadlords,  wheres the best place to do this?  I don't know,  the black tower maybe?  (Heavy sarcasm by the way!)  Please can we drop the whole Taims this or that,  next someone will have the theory that hes Morraine come back,  as you can probably tell its starting to get right on my nipples!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 14:31:33
subject: <b>Man, I leave for a couple of days, and look what happens</b>
body:
First off, let me say that I really think this is not all that original. Demandred has apparently been disproved by Winters Heart, so Taim must be Moridin for many of the same reasons Demmy was Taim.<br /><br />Ishmael &quot;had no talent for healing&quot; Prolouge, TEotW (from memory, without my book, but I'm pretty sure that what it says). I have to admit, I can't really recall how good at healing Taim is, but as you state &quot;Taim knows healing.&quot; Well, Ishamael did not, at least not very well.<br /><br />Ishmael, unlike any other forsaken, seemes to have been able to escape from the DO's prison. One theory I've heard was that he was Hawkwings advisor. This would seem to me that he, unlike the other Forsaken, would be more accepting of what the Aiel have become, and less likely to refer to them as &quot;so called.&quot;<br /><br />As far as Taim strength is concerned, he could have held back to appear less strong than he is. And Messana must somehow be able to make her strength seem less than what it is, or everyone in the WT would know who she is.<br /><br />Anyway, just a few thoughts. I don't agree with this theory, but I look forward to the next book and hope some of this issue is resolved.<br /><br />Peace, out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 17:10:18
subject: <b>Ah another long comment</b>
body:
There is no reason Ishammael could have known about the Aiel being changed so much. He was only able to touch the world at intervals since the Age of Legends. So he might very well not have been able to touch the world during the war Aiel war. Other then that the Aiel have been extremely secretive.<br />Also Ishammael, when able to touch the world wasn't exactly himself, cause of the dark one's influence. I think that only when he was reborn as Moridin he became reasonably sane again, for the first time since the AoL.<br /><br />Then again the Trollocs called the Aiel waste the dying ground so if you take that in account every forsaken could have had some indication about the fierceness of Aiel in battle. Yet we have seen suprise by several of them.<br /><br />But I still think even knowing about the Aiel would make a forsaken call Aiel the so called Aiel. For them an Aiel these days must be like an Aes Sedai these days. Nothing compared to what the name entailed in the age of legends. I think a wry comment like &quot;so called Aiel&quot; shows how superior they feel above these barbarics.<br /><br />Again I don't really know about this theory either and I sure didn't expect it but for some reason I find Taim as being just a normal darkfriend a bit farfetched. And him being turned seems more wishful thinking to me. He knows a great deal and that would require tutoring. I don't know but somehow I don't see any of the forsaken tutor some ignorant from this age. Besides why would they bother, in their eyes there could not have been need for such a person. After all how can these ignorant savages resist all the might and knowledge from the Age of Legends?<br /><br />That is also why I think only forsaken went to try and stop Rand from cleansing Saidin. After all how can a handful of forsaken not be victorious over a half trained male and a couple of weak &quot;Aes Sedai&quot;.


created: 2002-07-09 17:17:45
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
This seems to have gotten a bit out of hand.  <br /><br />Here are a couple of points that need to be addressed or remembered:<br /><br />1.  Verin's Compulsion weave was done in a way to hide it. The types the Forsaken have used have been somewhat bludgeoning.  When you're as powerful as they are, you don't have to worry about who knows.  Plus...we don't know WHO they have been subtle on, since we haven't found those people out.  The only reason we know Verin was trying to be subtle was because we were in her POV.<br /><br />2.  There are conditions where Rand sees the long, stretching black lines streaming from male Forsaken.  I know specifically of Asmodean and Ishamael.  I can't remember about Rahvin and Sammael.  Wouldn't Taim have it as well if he was Ish/Mor?<br /><br />3.  Why can't Taim simply be Taim?  A powerful, ambitious man who is extremely strong in the One Power?  Logain is.  The Wheel was spinning out potential Dragons until the real one arrived.  They were happening with much greater frequency. The last two we KNOW were strong.  Taim is educated and practiced in the Power. Maybe he's just a bad cookie.   However...I don't agree with that, but it's still a possibility.<br /><br />4.  People never declared themselves as False Dragons.  They probably thought they WERE the Dragon Reborn.  Not everyone declared, either.  Think of all the male channelers found (and that fact alone must keep Red sisters up nights, thinking of how many they've missed!).  Owyn didn't, Flinn didn't. <br /><br />Keep in mind, Rand had serious advantages others didn't.  He was ta'veren.  He was accompanied by two powerful ta'veren.  He had an Aes Sedai to show him the way, instead of trying to gentle him.  It was only a small step from this guidance to starting to read the various Prophecies.  His village Wisdom was an incredibly powerful wilder, as was his girlfriend (well, Egwene wasn't a wilder).  His adopted father was a weaponsmaster who knew concentration tricks that are similar to the ones used for budding AS Novices.  Taim had an excellent point that perhaps the Prophecies could be shaped to someone who could make them stick.  He had every reason to believe he was, and was going about trying to prove it.


created: 2002-07-09 22:40:31
subject: <b>Taim is Taim</b>
body:
Alright, fifteen years ago there was &quot;an ugliness after the Aiel war&quot;.  Also fifteen years ago, Aes Sedai were searching for an infant Dragon Reborn.  The Black Ajah was killing any boys rumoured to be lucky.  The Red Ajah were gentling on sight, possibly because of Black influence.  Fifteen years ago Owyn was gentled illegally because of this.  Fifteen years ago Ishamael was free and behind some or all of this activity.  And fifteen years ago Mazrim Taim began to channel.  Coincedence??  In the WOT???  I think not.  This is what I see.  Black/Red sisters were in Saldaea searching for men who could channel.  They were under the orders of Ishamael, and tight control, after all he just killed their leader for disobeying him.  They came across Mazrim Taim, an incredibly powerful male channeler who was also a darkfriend.  Instead of gentling him, they turned him over to Ishy who trained him and shielded him from the taint.  He learned well and gained in strength, until such time as Ishy began to feel nervous about the fact that the real DR had yet to be found.  So he ordered him to proclaim himself, in order to cause chaos so that when the real DR proclaimed himself, the nations would be against him.  At this point the rest of the Forsaken were not free, so it makes sense that Ishy would want some powerful allies/servants.  <br />Why do I think this??  Well the timing is right.  The &quot;fifteen years&quot; keeps popping up and if I know RJ it is by design.  Also, the supposed Black Ajah plot to spring Mazrim Taim, makes me think that the BA is highly sneaky and revealing a plan that has already been hatched seems like a good way to send Nyn and Elayne on a wild gooses chase.  Also, don't forget Siun's plan to destroy the Red Ajah by spreading the rumour that they set up false dragons.  Again, if I know RJ, this will eventually turn out to be true.<br /><br /><br />Either that or he is Morridin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />P.S.  I also beleive that at one point Taim WAS Demandred but RJ decided to change that part of the plot.  Everything seems to point in Demmy's direction and yet.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 23:07:00
subject: <b>The conclusive argument that Taim is not Moridin...</b>
body:
There is no way Taim is Moridin.<br /><br />No one has yet discussed this argument, but it is pretty difficult to work around.  From WH, we know that Demandred had several agents in the Ashamen: Gedwyn, Torval, Kisman, ect.  These df's were the prominent members in the Ashamen.<br /><br />If Moridin was Taim, which he isn't, there would have been a huge power struggle between Moridin and Demmy.  Moridin wouldn't have simply let Demmy have that much control of his recruits.  <br /><br />Obviously, the power struggle between Demmy and Moridin has not yet happened (although I am anxiously awaiting it).  Demmy, Semirhage, and Mesanna are apparently the only Forsaken who have not yet fallen under the control of Moridin.<br /><br />In addition, Moridin had absolutely no need to be Taim.  If Moridin was Taim, he would not have implanted his own agent, Dashiva, inside the Ashamen.  Moridin wouldn't have needed to put Dashiva into the Ashamen.  He would have put him somewhere else.  Because if Moridin was Taim, he obviously would have other Ashamen that were loyal to him and he would have used used those other Ashamen accordingly (and he wouldn't have had to put Dashiva there in the 1st place). <br /><br />So Moridin being Taim is completely redundant, and not a wise use of Moridin's time.  In addition, there is no easy way to explain why Moridin (if he was Taim) would have let Demandred have so much sway with his own agents.<br /><br />Moridin is clever.  He didn't have need of being with the Ashamen himself.  The same thing applies with the Aes Sedai.  Instead of placing himself directly into the Aes Sedai, Moridin used Arangar to do the work for him.  Life is easy when you have 2 or 3 Forsaken working for you.  <br /><br />The reason I think Moridin put Osangar in the Ashamen, was to sabotage Demandred's efforts.  For example, in Cairhienen, when the Ashamen attacked, I believe it was Dashiva who helped foil the attack and save Rand's life.  We also learned how suprised Taim was when he learned that Dashiva had come along on that attack.<br /><br />Taim is a mysterious person, and RJ has left it that way on purpose.  I think we will eventually learn who Taim really is, but it is an RAFO matter.  We have seen hundreds of speculative theories, but there simply isn't enough evidence to show any one.  But in this case, as I just showed, there is significant evidence against Taim being Moridin.<br /><br />Overall, this was a well put together synthesis, but sometimes synthesis don't work when we don't yet have all the facts.<br /><br />Cheers, and Flame on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 00:30:03
subject: <b>Why Taim/Moridin put Osangar with Rand</b>
body:
Taim tried to put Black Ashamen and Rand chose Osangar at the first opportunity (which is after Dumai's Wells) to keep an eye on Rand (as said at Forsaken meeting ch 13 WH).<br /><br />It meant that other Forsaken could no longer have a go at Rand without Taim/Moridin's knowledge or approval and also Rand's movements and intentions could be known bt Taim.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 02:56:10
subject: <b>A few additions.</b>
body:
How can Aes Sedai shield Taim from the taint? Besides who says that the Aes Sedai were hunting man who could channel on orders of Moridin? I mean the dragon was too young to channel so I doubt the dark one cared at all about the other poor fools who could. They would go insane anyway. They have always hunted those men since the breaking, no orders from the dark one needed.<br /><br />I don't recall reading that it was Moridin who directed Dashiva but it is a rather good point. Maybe one of them hoped to get closer to Rand while the other bothered with training possible new dreadlords.<br /><br />And since Moridin is Naeblis I doubt Demandred will dare to oppose him openly. So that powerstruggle argument seems rather weak to me.<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-10 03:27:28
subject: <b>How long Taim's been channeling</b>
body:
Just a thought, but I don't think it says anywhere just how long Taim's been channeling. Rand assumes that since Taim's about 35, that he must have been channeling for fifteen years, and everyone has just followed this assumption. But we all know Rand is often wrong, and AFAIK, there is nothing else to support or refute this claim. Maybe Taim really figured out to channel only a few years before proclaiming himself, and so has been channeling in actuality for far less.<br />


created: 2002-07-10 04:47:14
subject: <b>Venting, skip to the next one if you want debate</b>
body:
This is the power of RJ. That even after nine books, NINE books, we still have countless mysteries that are just so tantalizingly close to being solved, but just not there. I find it amazing that he can throw in so many clues and still stump us all, that he has the ability to be so damned ambiguous all the time. How many RAFO situations are there? A sh!t ton. How many situations are there that make us feel that we are just so close, that if we read again, look closer, study harder we might find that damning peice of evidence that solves that whole puzzle. Well I've got news for ya'll- there is nothing new under the sun, there is no breakthrough waiting on the next page in the previous nine books. RJ tricks us into thinking there is an answer, leads us on the quest to figure it out, taunts us and baits us, holds the carrot out so that we, the dumb, plodding ass, will keep plodding on. <br /><br />Taim is one of these situations, as is Demandred, as is Asmo's killer to some extent (though I'm 90% sure Greandel did it), as is Moridin's games, as is Fain's deal, as is the Finn going's ons. And that is why we will go out in droves to buy the next book, to find the conclusive peice of evidence. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that all this argument is really an exersize in futility. They are unsolvable. We won't know for sure intil book 13 or whenever RJ decides to end it, and probably not even then in some cases. <br /><br />Not to knock it or anything, I'm caught in the game too, else why would I be here. I keep hopeing I'm just a pessimist, that maybe someone smarter then I has found the key, but always the door remains locked.   <br /><br />Hmmm, this got long and there is not one point of argument in it... funny thought, like some other postings on this board. That just popped in my head and I had a chuckle, maybe some of you will to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 07:18:33
subject: <b>Go wismail</b>
body:
that was the best flame of a theory I've seen in so long. It reminded me of the MB back in its infancy back in 1999. When on topic still ruled and theories that were posted like the above were ripped apart for the glaring holes in them. This theory is just Taimandred rewritten with the evidence for supporting Taimandred transferred to Moridin and the bit about Rand not noticing Taim in the Grey Man incident as the proof that Moridin is Taim not some other FS or DF trained from a FS or just himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 07:44:25
subject: <b>So many things to say...</b>
body:
I'm glad this has generated so much discussion, but have been a little disappointed by some responses.  I put this up as a distinct possibility, not as THE TRUTH, and will not be significantly put out if I turn out to be wrong.  Some responses, however, suggest I've touched a nerve with some people.<br />  Here's a quote from Matrimony Cauthon, who I have a great deal of respect for from reading lots of his theories, but which displays a lack of lateral thinking, IMO, and perhaps also a lack of familiarity with WH. Anyway, here's the quote:<font size="-1"><b> No one has yet discussed this argument, but it is pretty difficult to work around. From WH, we know that Demandred had several agents in the Ashamen: Gedwyn, Torval, Kisman, ect. These df's were the prominent members in the Ashamen.<br /><br />If Moridin was Taim, which he isn't, there would have been a huge power struggle between Moridin and Demmy. Moridin wouldn't have simply let Demmy have that much control of his recruits. <br /><br />Obviously, the power struggle between Demmy and Moridin has not yet happened (although I am anxiously awaiting it). Demmy, Semirhage, and Mesanna are apparently the only Forsaken who have not yet fallen under the control of Moridin.</b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 07:52:55
subject: <b>Bugger, hit submit instead of preview..</b>
body:
Now, for my comments on that above.  In WH, we see Demmy is already obeying Moridin as Nae'blis.  I assume Demmy encountered Shadar Haran, as did Graendal, so as to avoid a power struggle between the 2.  <br /> However, at the time Demmy must have gained those Asha'men as his spies, I would argue that Demmy didn't know who Taim really was.  Which is why he wanted spies there.  Taimidin, however, knew who they were, and sent them to kill Rand in order to get rid of them.<br />  Then, when he finds out Dashiva decided to tag along, he gets very angry, because the DO is trying to get his Chosen all under one command without any more of them being killed. He thought Dashiva well out of danger because he was one of those who was with Rand, and not in the BT at all.  The question now is, why did Dashiva tag along?<br />  Anyway, I've more to say on this subject, I just wanted to get this bit up ASAP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 09:43:42
subject: <b>So many things to say...pt 2</b>
body:
but first, some replies<br /><font size="-1"><b>6. His knowledge of testing suggests great familiarity with the subject: &quot;The more power that's used the easier it is to detect the resonance. On the other hand, too big a resonance could do unpleasant things to your mind, maybe kill you, so I'll start small.&quot; <br /><br />*Perhaps he accidently killed a couple of people that he tested, and figured out not to use too much of the power.</b></font><br /> Yeah, he killed a few men while testing them for the ability to channel AND NO ONE SET THE RED AJAH ON HIM?? Yeah, right.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Just because Verin has a hard time doing it doesn't mean that someone stronger in the Power would. We've seen evidence that all our main characters who are channelers seem to have an easier time learning. Nynaeve learns faster than Egwene. And Egwene learns very fast. Heck, Moiraine was one of the strongest AS, and spend the least time as novice and Accepted.</b></font> <br /> There seems to be a definite difference between strength and skill, the two are mentioned separately in the later books.  And Talent also needs to be considered.  Rand is ceratinly talented in attack, but Taim's abilities seem to be too diverse, IMHO.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Ishmael &quot;had no talent for healing&quot; Prolouge, TEotW (from memory, without my book, but I'm pretty sure that what it says). I have to admit, I can't really recall how good at healing Taim is, but as you state &quot;Taim knows healing.&quot; Well, Ishamael did not, at least not very well.</b></font><br /> This was just one point where I relied on people's knowledge of WOT without explaining properly what I thought.  Ishy WASN'T a talented healer, but he probably knew the male form of the basic healing that most AS know now.  Which is what Taim seems to know, and, for the same reasons as I don't think he discovered testing for the ability (see above), no I don't think it likely he found this out through trial and error..<br /><br /> As for the black cords, I read a theory saying they only appeared in TAR, but I'm not sure that's right.  They certainly didn't appear, as far as I recall, with Rahvin or Sammael.<br /><br /> I said strong compulsion hadn't been seen until then except when used by the Chosen, not the sort of compulsion used to make your dad buy you that dress you wanted...The compulsion Taim boasts of having used rendered those people permanently servile.  This seems very strong.<br /><br /> That's a good point about how long Taim may have been channeling.  I assumed he must have had the spark, as how would he have learned otherwise?  If he had the spark, he's been channeling at least 15 years, and if men 'slow' like women, then he may well have been channeling much longer...Maybe even 3000 years, if he's Moridin!<br /><br /> The idea he may have been tutored for 15 years by Ishy is a great idea, and one I can't argue against.  It's just as possible and just as likely, IMO.<br /><br />  Going back, again, to the incident with the Gray Man and Taim.  To paint a picture:  Rand works out that a Gray Man is approaching just after/ at the same time as/ just before he feels a gateway opening on his balcony made of saidin.  Confronted with the head-on attack, he ignores the possibility that one of the Forsaken has sent the GM to distract him whilst attacking from behind, and wraps the GM in air instead.<br />  Now, arguably a GM wouldn't be the best thing to distract someone with, but it is Rand's lack of reaction to a gateway he should be able to sense nearby that troubles me.  Either this was a mistake on RJ's part, or Rand couldn't sense the gateway, and doesn't notice the lack once Taim appears because he's so angry.  If it's not a mistake, then I would argue Taimidin, in his eagerness to stop the GM, acts with haste and creates the gateway using the TP, which,as we know, is addictive.  Realising his mistake, he switches powers and hopes Rand doesn't notice.<br /><br /> Finally, I would like to mention the place where Moridin meets Moggy in ACOS Ch25.  She was in a vacuole, then Shadar Haran teleports her somewhere to see Moridin.  The place is unlike any other place used by the Chosen for meetings up until this point, and is different from where we see Moridin in TPOD prologue.  Those places were decked out like palaces, and usually had fireplaces where the wood wasn't consumed, and had no windows.  This place is not a vacuole, IMO, as Moggy smells wood smoke immediately, which suggests a real fire.  The room is described as being panneled in wood, and Moggy thinks it the sort of place a wealthy merchant of the current era might inhabit.  The description seemed similar to that of Logain's house in the BT from WH, only a bit more flash, and I think this might be another hint from RJ as to Taim's identity.  Although Moggy thinks to herself repeatedly the place must be near SG, she has no way of knowing.  Shadar Haran can teleport himself to see Graendal, so I cannot see why he couldn't carry Moggy with him to Caemlyn to see Moridin.  Once again, not conclusive, just suggestive, but I think RJ's given a number of hints that Moridin does use the OP sometimes, and I think this is a hint that Moridin has an alias.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 12:14:48
subject: <b>Rand's Habit</b>
body:
Keep in mind, when discussing Dashiva, that Rand has made a habit of bringing dangerous people along with him...the Tairan Lords most against him, Jessan (sp) Natael and Kirielle, Aviendha when he thought she was a spy (and before he became smitten).  <br /><br />The interesting thing I've always wondered about is Dashiva's pushing Flinn to heal Rand after the Fain encounter.  I can't imagine he'd have had any difficulty slaying Rand and escaping in the chaos.  I know the DO had standing orders NOT to kill Rand, but nobody seems to pay much attention to that.


created: 2002-07-10 14:10:46
subject: <b>My reply to the author's comments</b>
body:
Ok, that was a good reply to my post.  I worded my original post strongly, so that it would get exactly such a reply.  I mean no personal offenses here, it's just that with so many blackboard posts already, you kind of have to catch people's attention, so that they read your post.<br /><br /><br /><b> Now, for my comments on that above. In WH, we see Demmy is already obeying Moridin as Nae'blis. I assume Demmy encountered Shadar Haran, as did Graendal, so as to avoid a power struggle between the 2.</b><br /> <br />Just because SH might have visited Demmy, does not mean that Demandred would just give over all his agents to Moridin and meekly obey.  Demmy may be obeying Moridin currently, but he still has every intent to attain that position for himself.   Moridin has to be extremely careful with Demandred, because Demandred has alot of sway with the Ashamen.  <br /><br />I don't think that SH visiting Demandred (assuming he did actually visit Demandred) would have any sway on the power struggle between Moridin and Demandred.  As we saw from Demmy's POV, he still retained the thoughts to usurp Moridin in the future.  If Moridin had asked to much of Demandred right away, a showdown between the 2 might have emerged.  <br /><br />Clearly, Demandred has had sway with his Ashamen for a long time.  In PoD, we had some indications that Gedwyn was df (based on his overheard conversation with Weiramon).<br /><br />In LoC, we also saw one of Demmy's agents attempt to attack Rand, before Taim intervened.  <br /><br />So, if Demandred has been involved with the Ashamen for some  time, there is no way he could have coexisted with Taimiden.  <br />A war would have broken out, and one of them would have either died or left the Ashamen.  <br /><br /><b>However, at the time Demmy must have gained those Asha'men as his spies, I would argue that Demmy didn't know who Taim really was. Which is why he wanted spies there. Taimidin, however, knew who they were, and sent them to kill Rand in order to get rid of them.</b><br /><br />This is quite unlikely.  Moridin is pretty aware of everything that is going on, and surely he would have known if Demandred was tampering with his top agents (assuming Moridin is Taim).  Taimiden would never have promoted Gedwyn and those guys to storm and attack leaders, if he had known Demandred was interfering. It goes back to that no 2 Forsaken in one group rule.  And with the situation you are proposing, we have not 2 forsaken involved with the Ashamen, but 3 (Moridin, Aginor, and Demmy).  <br /><br />Since Demandred has several Ashamen agents, he must have some good intel on who Taim is.  For all we know, Taim could be another one of Demmy's proxies.  But surely, Demandred was capable enough to find out who Taim really was.  Otherwise, he would not have taken the risk to convert several of Taim's top Ashamen.<br /><br />It just doesn't make sense to me that Demmy would have gone and tried to convert several of Taimiden's top soldiers without knowing who Taim was in the first place.  Demandred likes to take risks, but a good general always knows about his enemy before he strikes.  The situation you propose is that Demandred didn't know who Taim was.  That is unlikely.<br />The most likely possibility, in my mind, is that Taim is one of Demandred's proxies.  <br /> <br /><b>Then, when he finds out Dashiva decided to tag along, he gets very angry, because the DO is trying to get his Chosen all under one command without any more of them being killed. He thought Dashiva well out of danger because he was one of those who was with Rand, and not in the BT at all. The question now is, why did Dashiva tag along?</b><br /><br />That possibility is unlikely.  Demandred would have been more than happy if Dashiva got himself killed again.  Forsaken just love it when the competition is reduced.  <br /><br />The more likely scenario is that Moridin sent Aginor into the Ashamen as his own spy, and to sabotage Demandred's efforts.<br /><br />Of course, Dashiva was ordered to watch Rand, but we don't know when that order was made.  When Dashiva was placed into the Ashamen, he had exactly no way of knowing that he would end up protecting Rand.  It was Rand that picked Dashiva, and not the other way around.  Thus, Dashiva's orders to watch Rand probably took place after Dashiva was placed in the Ashamen.  This also explains why Taim did not want Dashiva to go over with Rand.  If Taim had been Moridin, he would have been more than happy to have Dashiva go over with Rand.<br /><br />I think the most likely scenario is that Demandred had ordered the Ashamen to kill Rand (after they overheard of Rand's plans to cleanse the Taint in Ebou Dar).  Demandred's plan probably would have been succesful, but Dashiva tagged along (as per order of Moridin) and disrupted the operation (and let himself and the others be seen, so that Rand knew who the attackers were).<br /><br />Demandred was furious, because Moridin had essentially hijacked his operation.  In essence, Moridin used Dashiva to steal over the Ashamen from Demandred.<br /><br />I think that a huge power conflict is brewing between Moridin and Demandred, because if you look at it, the only people that we don't yet know are converted over to Moridin's side are Semirhage, Mesanna, and Demandred.<br /><br />Isn't it convenient that these 3 have a pact not to turn on each other, until everyone else is first toppled?  <br /><br />Now, on the other side of the equation, we have Moridin with his 4 pets: Moghedien, Cyndane, Dashiva (now deceased), and Halima.  <br /><br />Graendal is still a bit of wildcard.  She pledged allegiance to SH, but she isn't completely mindtrapped like some of the others.<br /><br />We haven't seen a large scale fight between the forsaken yet, but something is definitely brewing.  The Nae'blis position is everybit as important as the plans to stop Rand.  So, hopefully, we will get some in-fighting between the Forsaken.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 20:35:08
subject: <b>Interesting comments</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b> Just because SH might have visited Demmy, does not mean that Demandred would just give over all his agents to Moridin and meekly obey. Demmy may be obeying Moridin currently, but he still has every intent to attain that position for himself. Moridin has to be extremely careful with Demandred, because Demandred has alot of sway with the Ashamen. </b></font> <br /> I agree about Demandred's intent, but he won't disobey the DO's commands.  He'll kill Moridin from the shadows if he can, but until then he'll play along.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> If Moridin had asked to much of Demandred right away, a showdown between the 2 might have emerged. </b></font><br />I find this confusing.  What could be 'too much' if attacking Rand while he's using the Chodan Kal isn't?  Sure, we all know that Rand was unable to  do anything else, but the Chosen didn't know that at the time they were ordered into action. <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> In LoC, we also saw one of Demmy's agents attempt to attack Rand, before Taim intervened. </b></font> <br /> I think it highly unlikely that this was Demandred's Gray Man, as Demmy had been ordered, as had the other Chosen, not to kill Rand except in self-defense.  Which raises the question as to who sent it, I don't think Sammael would have been stupid enough to disobey the DO.  Which suggests to me that it was never meant to be a real threat, and that it was probably sent by the man who killed it....Taim.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> It goes back to that no 2 Forsaken in one group rule. And with the situation you are proposing, we have not 2 forsaken involved with the Ashamen, but 3 (Moridin, Aginor, and Demmy). </b></font> <br />This so-called rule is already disproved by having Aginor in the same camp as Demandred, if that's the case.  I still think that it's possible Taimidin was just playing along with Demandred, who didn't know who he really was.  Then, later, when Demandred knew who Taim really was, he started giving his Asha'man orders including the instruction not to let Taim find out (in WH).  There's no reason I can imagine why Demmy would tell the Asha'man not to be found out by Taim, if Taim was Demmy's agent.  This only makes sense to me if Taim is at least on a par with Demandred.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> That possibility is unlikely. Demandred would have been more than happy if Dashiva got himself killed again. Forsaken just love it when the competition is reduced. </b></font> <br /> Yes, Demandred would have been happy with Dashiva's death, but Moridin would not be.  Now that the Nae'blis has been announced, I believe the DO wants his forces to be more coordinated than they have previously been, so that not too many more of them get killed.  If Taim was Demandred's proxy, Demandred just wouldn't be giving orders that he didn't want Taim to find out.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> I think that a huge power conflict is brewing between Moridin and Demandred, because if you look at it, the only people that we don't yet know are converted over to Moridin's side are Semirhage, Mesanna, and Demandred.</b></font> <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Isn't it convenient that these 3 have a pact not to turn on each other, until everyone else is first toppled? <br /><br />Now, on the other side of the equation, we have Moridin with his 4 pets: Moghedien, Cyndane, Dashiva (now deceased), and Halima. <br /><br />Graendal is still a bit of wildcard. She pledged allegiance to SH, but she isn't completely mindtrapped like some of the others.</b></font> <br />This is all very interesting, because I have a completely different view on things.  I tend to think Dmandred stands alone.  Semirhage, from her POV in LOC, certainly knows that all power comes from the DO and I cannot imagine she would disobey.  Mesaana I put in the same boat, though with less evidence.  I think Moridin sent the more disposable members of the chosen against Rand in WH, leaving the two who currently have useful positions in place.  Halima was probably sent because of her ability to attack AS without them really knowing what's going on.  <br /> I also think Moridin mentioning Mesaana's absence from that meeting was simply to lure Demandred into a false sense of security, making him think their alliance still holds.  I agree a showdown may be coming, but I don't think Demandred will have too many supporters if it does.<br /> In this light, perhaps the mystery man who was ordering Luc/Isam to kill Rand is actually Demandred, hiding his ID because he is going to try to get Luc/Isam to kill Moridin.  Just a thought....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 21:20:13
subject: <b>maybe this will help</b>
body:
Taim is obviously not happy about the name Asha'man or the swords and dragons Rand wants them to wear to mark their abilities and I found it very interesting that Rand had this to say &quot; An asha'man was a man who defended truth and justice and right for evryone.A guardian who would not yield even when hope was gone.&quot;LOC chpt 42.And of course who was Ishmael but the betrayer of hope.<br /><br />And also in the same chapter in the presence of Taim, from LTT we hear this &quot;Oh Light,I killed them all.All that I loved.If I kill him,it will be well,though.I can make it up,if I kill him finally..&quot; Realy I always thought of Ishmael when I read this.<br /><br />Last but not least is the rage that consumes both Taim in the above chapter and the rage that consumes Moridin in the POD are both instantly there and then gone.<br /><br />Personally I don't think Taim is Moridin I just wanted to add fuel to the fire.Good theory though.


created: 2002-07-11 12:40:18
subject: <b>My retort!</b>
body:
6. His knowledge of testing suggests great familiarity with the subject: &quot;The more power that's used the easier it is to detect the resonance. On the other hand, too big a resonance could do unpleasant things to your mind, maybe kill you, so I'll start small.&quot; <br /><br />*Perhaps he accidently killed a couple of people that he tested, and figured out not to use too much of the power.<br />Yeah, he killed a few men while testing them for the ability to channel AND NO ONE SET THE RED AJAH ON HIM?? Yeah, right.<br /><br />I was just making a point that there could be another reason for his knowledge.  If he worked out how to test on his own, he could have discovered the side effects of too much power the hard way.  There are other possibilities for his knowledge of testing.  The most likely, someone taught him.   This point neither proves nor disproves anything.  It&#8217;s pure speculation.<br /><br /><br /><br />Just because Verin has a hard time doing it doesn't mean that someone stronger in the Power would. We've seen evidence that all our main characters who are channelers seem to have an easier time learning. Nynaeve learns faster than Egwene. And Egwene learns very fast. Heck, Moiraine was one of the strongest AS, and spend the least time as novice and Accepted. <br />There seems to be a definite difference between strength and skill, the two are mentioned separately in the later books. And Talent also needs to be considered. Rand is ceratinly talented in attack, but Taim's abilities seem to be too diverse, IMHO.<br /><br />Then show me an example of someone who is strong in the Power, who does not have skill to go along with it.  The stronger you are in the Power, the more skills you appear to have.  <br /><br />Ishmael &quot;had no talent for healing&quot; Prolouge, TEotW (from memory, without my book, but I'm pretty sure that what it says). I have to admit, I can't really recall how good at healing Taim is, but as you state &quot;Taim knows healing.&quot; Well, Ishamael did not, at least not very well.<br />This was just one point where I relied on people's knowledge of WOT without explaining properly what I thought. Ishy WASN'T a talented healer, but he probably knew the male form of the basic healing that most AS know now. Which is what Taim seems to know, and, for the same reasons as I don't think he discovered testing for the ability (see above), no I don't think it likely he found this out through trial and error.<br /><br />Wouldn&#8217;t a better explanation of this be that Ishamael has NO talent for healing with the OP, but with the TP, he does.  There are AS who can&#8217;t heal a bruise.  Perhaps this explains that quote better.  Consider that Ishamael healed Lews Therin of madness.  That would take a lot of ability.  And Ishy did say that he &#8220;followed a different power now&#8221;  after healing Kinslayer.<br /><br /><br />I said strong compulsion hadn't been seen until then except when used by the Chosen, not the sort of compulsion used to make your dad buy you that dress you wanted...The compulsion Taim boasts of having used rendered those people permanently servile. This seems very strong.<br /><br />Once again, this proves nothing.  What if those little girls had wanted to destroy their fathers psyche.  Doesn&#8217;t intent play a large part in what you do.  Yes, he used a very strong weave, but that doesn&#8217;t mean he couldn&#8217;t have taught himself.  Case in point, Nynaeve and Healing.  See my previous statement.<br /><br />That's a good point about how long Taim may have been channeling. I assumed he must have had the spark, as how would he have learned otherwise? If he had the spark, he's been channeling at least 15 years, and if men 'slow' like women, then he may well have been channeling much longer...Maybe even 3000 years, if he's Moridin!<br /><br />The idea he may have been tutored for 15 years by Ishy is a great idea, and one I can't argue against. It's just as possible and just as likely, IMO.<br /><br />This is a point that&#8217;s been annoying me.  Just because he learned to channel 15 years ago, doesn&#8217;t mean he learned at the age of 20.  He could have been taught at the age of 35.  We assume being born with the spark makes you stronger, but there is evidence of large potential without the spark.  Case in point, that Sharima in the Salidar camp who&#8217;s a grandma.  (I hope I got that name right.)<br /><br />Going back, again, to the incident with the Gray Man and Taim. To paint a picture: Rand works out that a Gray Man is approaching just after/ at the same time as/ just before he feels a gateway opening on his balcony made of saidin. Confronted with the head-on attack, he ignores the possibility that one of the Forsaken has sent the GM to distract him whilst attacking from behind, and wraps the GM in air instead.<br />Now, arguably a GM wouldn't be the best thing to distract someone with, but it is Rand's lack of reaction to a gateway he should be able to sense nearby that troubles me. Either this was a mistake on RJ's part, or Rand couldn't sense the gateway, and doesn't notice the lack once Taim appears because he's so angry. If it's not a mistake, then I would argue Taimidin, in his eagerness to stop the GM, acts with haste and creates the gateway using the TP, which,as we know, is addictive. Realising his mistake, he switches powers and hopes Rand doesn't notice.<br /><br />Read that passage again.  Rand felt the gateway being woven.  He reacted to the grey man because it was the most immediate danger.  I&#8217;m at work, and don&#8217;t have my books, but if someone could back me up with this, I&#8217;d greatly appreciate it.<br /><br />Finally, I would like to mention the place where Moridin meets Moggy in ACOS Ch25. She was in a vacuole, then Shadar Haran teleports her somewhere to see Moridin. The place is unlike any other place used by the Chosen for meetings up until this point, and is different from where we see Moridin in TPOD prologue. Those places were decked out like palaces, and usually had fireplaces where the wood wasn't consumed, and had no windows. This place is not a vacuole, IMO, as Moggy smells wood smoke immediately, which suggests a real fire. The room is described as being panneled in wood, and Moggy thinks it the sort of place a wealthy merchant of the current era might inhabit. The description seemed similar to that of Logain's house in the BT from WH, only a bit more flash, and I think this might be another hint from RJ as to Taim's identity. Although Moggy thinks to herself repeatedly the place must be near SG, she has no way of knowing. Shadar Haran can teleport himself to see Graendal, so I cannot see why he couldn't carry Moggy with him to Caemlyn to see Moridin. Once again, not conclusive, just suggestive, but I think RJ's given a number of hints that Moridin does use the OP sometimes, and I think this is a hint that Moridin has an alias.<br /><br />Where are you getting your information about vacuoles?  You seem very well informed.  Did you, perchance, once live in the age of legends?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  (I am just kidding.)  I want you to back up that information about no wood being consumed in a vacuole with a quote, because I think you are making an assumption about them.  <br /><br />Overall, I think your theory is basically a bunch of assumptions on your part.  I think it was well thought out, and I really enjoyed the conversation it stimulated, but in the end IT IS WRONG!  Please feel free to respond to my retorts, and don&#8217;t take my personally.  I mean no harm.<br /><br />And in the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!<br /><br />P.S.  How do I make words bold.  My computer won't let me do it<br />


created: 2002-07-11 17:28:35
subject: <b>My head hurts...</b>
body:
...with all these parallel arguments going on. Its like a RJ book in here!<br /><br />But anyway Baphomet, idol of the Knights Templers...<br /><br />I'd say Taim's use of compulsion isn't indicative of anything.  He seems to use a crude form, too strong perhaps, or just clumsy. Untrained girls have developed the ability prior to Tar Valon training to get what they want. Kind of blows your argument out of the water.<br /><br />I thought it was a particularly sophisticated skill, but not enough evidence for this really. Probably is where no traces want to be left i.e. Verin. Fair enough. Debate over, I think.<br /><br />Just one more thing to add, about the cords. Asmodeans were seen by Rand when he was racing him towards the access key in Rhuidean. They were both skimming towards the place, with Asmodean &quot;just ahead&quot;. <br /><br />The other visualisation was Rands original fight with Ba'alzamon / Ishamael which took place god knows where. Not in the material world certainly, maybe Tel'aran'rhiod. Anyway, Skimmers don't pass through Tel'aran'rhiod so there's no real consensus. Pity, as it could be a useful thing for Rand, to directly visualise if someone had made oaths to the Dark One. You'd think he'd be interested. No doubt he's got a lot on his mind, you know, herding sheep and stuff.<br /><br />Anyway, as far as I remember Taim hasn't been Skimming around with Rand, so there'd be no opportunity to see any cords. If that was the original point, you know what, I can't remember what that was. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 21:36:53
subject: <b>Its logical that Moridin is Taim</b>
body:
There was a scene where Moridin was fiddling with a sharah board and thinking about strategies and he was gloating over how good <br /><br />In one scene Moridin was gloating over how good a sharah player he was - how good at the tactics of the game - and how he was using the tactics of sharah in real life. He said how could he lose when he  was playing BOTH sides of the board. Being Taim would be the best way to do this.<br /><br />As far as Moggy in the vacuole is concerned, she was TOLD by Moridin she was put in one to go to Moridin, but Moridin/Ishy lies to gain an inch or a second, remember? It might have been true, but he might also be throwing her off balance. Tactics.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 01:35:08
subject: <b>Woo Hoo! Love this debate!</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b> I was just making a point that there could be another reason for his knowledge. If he worked out how to test on his own, he could have discovered the side effects of too much power the hard way. There are other possibilities for his knowledge of testing. The most likely, someone taught him. This point neither proves nor disproves anything. It&#8217;s pure speculation.</b></font> <br /> I cannot agree that Taim might have figured out how to test on his own.  With the way men channeling has been regarded for thousands of years, if Taim was (figuring out through trial and error) testing and healing people he would have been infamous long before he appeared in the books.  With the level of concentration  required on the part of the 'testee' ( ie. person being tested, not testicle!), I can't see how Taim could test people without them being aware of it.  Unless he was a DF working solely w/ other DF's.  It just seems to me the simplest explanations for his abilities are either he <font size="-1"><b>IS</b></font> one of the Forsaken in disguise, or else he was taught by one.  I regard the idea that he was taught by one as unlikley because of Taim's strength- I can't imagine any of the Chosen being trusting enough to teach such skills to someone so strong when they have enough competition from one another as it is.  Except perhaps for Ishamael, as in that comment above; I can readily believe Ishy may've been mad enough to do that.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Then show me an example of someone who is strong in the Power, who does not have skill to go along with it. The stronger you are in the Power, the more skills you appear to have. </b></font> <br /> There seem to be plenty, but all of them could be down to differing 'Talents'.  Aviendha can't make gateways as large as she thinks she should be able to, Elayne and Egwene can't Heal the way Nynaeve can, no-one seems to be skillful enough to make Ter'angreal the way Elayne can, etc.<br />  On the other hand, my point about Taim is that his skills seem to me to be too diverse.  Sure, he may have had a great Talent for compulsion, like Rahvin or Graendal, but then he would be less likely to be Talented in other areas.<br />  Rand sensed the resonance in Flinn b4 Taim did, which would suggest to me that Rand has a greater 'Talent' for testing; Rand had the desire to test people, yet he never worked it out for himself.  And he's ta'veren to boot!  Yet Taim worked it out on his own?  I doubt it.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Wouldn&#8217;t a better explanation of this be that Ishamael has NO talent for healing with the OP, but with the TP, he does. There are AS who can&#8217;t heal a bruise. Perhaps this explains that quote better. Consider that Ishamael healed Lews Therin of madness. That would take a lot of ability. And Ishy did say that he &#8220;followed a different power now&#8221; after healing Kinslayer.</b></font> <br /> Ishy said that b4 he heals LTT, actually.  And he said he never had much talent for healing, which doesn't mean he didn't have any at all.  The healing most AS use is described somewhere as being the basic battlefield healing from the AoL-it's non-specific and draws the energy for the healing from the person being healed.  I interpret the scanty info we have been given in the latter books as saying the more Talented healers wove site-specific healing webs which didn't tire the recipient out so much.  I tend to think this basic healing might have been known by Ishy, and it seems to be the healing Taim knows.  Once again, that can support Taim being taught as well, like most of my 'evidence'.  As for LTT being healed of madness, I'm not surprised that Ishy was able to heal him of something induced by the Taint, especially IF there is some link between the Taint and the TP, as has been suggested elsewhere.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Once again, this proves nothing. What if those little girls had wanted to destroy their fathers psyche. Doesn&#8217;t intent play a large part in what you do. Yes, he used a very strong weave, but that doesn&#8217;t mean he couldn&#8217;t have taught himself. Case in point, Nynaeve and Healing. See my previous statement.</b></font> <br /> I'm sure lots of little girls want to destroy their father's psyche.  As someone else pointed out, the permanent state of this compulsion might actually suggest the crudity of the weave.  As for intent, Rand was using skimming for a while before Travelling, despite his intent.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> This is a point that&#8217;s been annoying me. Just because he learned to channel 15 years ago, doesn&#8217;t mean he learned at the age of 20. He could have been taught at the age of 35. We assume being born with the spark makes you stronger, but there is evidence of large potential without the spark. Case in point, that Sharima in the Salidar camp who&#8217;s a grandma. (I hope I got that name right.)</b></font> <br /> That grandma may not be the best example, I've been wondering whether or not that might be Graendal, considering her strength and the timing of her appearance, but that's pure supposition. And her name's Sharina Melloy, and I thought she could already channel because they were freaking out about her strength- I'll have to re-read.  We simply do not know whether Taim had the spark or not- if he is self-taught, then I would argue he must have.  If not, then he could have been found by Ishy a long time ago.  We don't even really know for sure his full potential, or if he's reached his full potential.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Read that passage again. Rand felt the gateway being woven. He reacted to the grey man because it was the most immediate danger. I&#8217;m at work, and don&#8217;t have my books, but if someone could back me up with this, I&#8217;d greatly appreciate it.</b></font> <br /> I'm afraid this comment of yours ticked me off a bit.  You cannot imagine how many times I've gone over this passage over the last few weeks and <font size="-1"><b>THERE IS NO MENTION OF RAND SENSEING THE GATEWAY OR THE BAR OF FIRE!</b></font>  I have read and re-read and re-read that passage because I find the whole Gray Man attack perplexing.  If the Chosen have been told not to kill Rand at this time, then which one was mad enough to send the GM?  Unless it was meant to be stopped, and Taim was there deliberately to stop it.  Thus far, this could mean Taim is just Demandred's proxy, and the GM stunt was worked out to get Rand to trust Taim more.  However, the thin that caught my attention was the lack of Rand senseing anything until the comment about feeling saidin leaving Taim.  This is either a mistake on RJ's part, or a hint as to Taim's identity. IMO. <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Where are you getting your information about vacuoles? You seem very well informed. Did you, perchance, once live in the age of legends?  (I am just kidding.) I want you to back up that information about no wood being consumed in a vacuole with a quote, because I think you are making an assumption about them. </b></font><br /> Damn! You've found me out, I am from the AOL!! Actually, I'm just putting together bits and pieces of info from numerous Forsaken POV's that I've been going over repeatedly to find more support for my theory.  In Mesaana's POV in the LOC prologue she regards their meeting place as not really being close to anywhere, and it's one of those funky places with fires that don't burn. I'm sory, I'm not going to provde quotes, because there's a number of passages describing these things, and I thought people'd be familiar with them. Later, Moggy thinks about vacuoles and Mesaana's great knowledge about them, in Ch 25 of ACOS.  The way her interview w/ Moridin is written, the first thing we are told is that she's not in a vacuole (because of the wood smoke) then that it's not TAR either.  She assumes it's near SG, but that is pure assumption on her part.  It was the difference between that place and the other places the Chosen meet, and also the place we see Moridin playing Sha'rah in the POD prologue that made me wonder why RJ wrote that passage the way he did.  Small things are important, IMO.<br /><br />Sorry if I've reacted strongly to some comments here, but throughout I have made a strong effort to express everything as an opinion ( using terms like &quot;might be&quot; and &quot;seems&quot; instead of &quot;is&quot; ) and sometimes other peoples statements of what things ARE get on my nerves.  Sometimes I do slip up and use &quot;is&quot;, sorry.  <br />  Today I've been poring over Kisman's thoughts in Far Madding concerning the orders he received from our three much-debated luminaries, Taim, Demandred and Moridin.  Anyone who wants to 'disprove' my theory, I'd suggest going back to that passage.  It's more troublesome than I previously thought.<br />  Mind you, it doesn't really support the 'Taim is Demandred's proxy' argument, either.  In fact, to me, it seems to lend credence to the 'Taim is Moridin's proxy' idea much better.<br /> Bugger! (Mind you, I still don't think anything's definite, except that Taim is NOT Demandred)<br /><br />PS. You put things in bold by having the word &#8216;quote&#8217; in caps inside squiggly brackets {  } b4 what you want bold, then followed by the same with a backslash in front of the word &#8216;quote&#8217; at the end of what you want bold.  Check the message board section and look at the replies.  That&#8217;s how I found it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-14 04:32:53
subject: <b>simplest solution</b>
body:
I agree with reblest's comments considering Morindin/Demandred as Taim.<br />If Moridin were Taim he would send all his DF Asha'man to prevent Rand from cleansing the taint.  Unless someone<br />believes the only DF Asha'man were the ones sent to kill Rand...impossible if Moridin is the M'hael.  The<br />counter that he wanted to &quot;weed&quot; out the other Forsaken has little merit.  The Dark One is going to be extremely <br />upset at the cleansing of saidin.  Moridin has to know all the Forsaken, even the N'aeblis, are going to face<br />punishment for this failure...especially if Moridin held back the DF Asha'man. <br />Also, this puts the final nail in the coffin for Taimandred...if any were needed.  If Demmy were the M'hael it <br />would also be impossible to have only the DF Asha'man sent to kill Rand as the only DF Asha'man at <br />the Black Tower.  Demmy would not leave behind these DF Asha'man when going after Rand.  <br />Demmy considers himself a commanding general, not a soldier. <br />However, with everything by RJ there's going to be speculation...where was Taim when all this power was being<br />used?  Shouldn't he be a litte interested and concerned?  If he doesn't go himself, send a few Asha'man to check it<br />out.  This also applies to Logain as well.  Maybe Taim's faction and Logain's faction were to busy<br />blasting each other.


created: 2002-07-14 22:45:33
subject: <b>One comment...</b>
body:
One problem with the opposing comment saying that he would send all of his Darkfriend AM to stop Rand from cleansing the male half of the source - First off, if he had sent the men, would Rand not then know for certain that Taim was against him? I haven't read the series in some time (I read it once over several months ago and am now waiting for the next book, but have not read it again), but I believe I am correct in saying that Rand still DID trust Taim at this point, and that doing so would prove to Rand that Taim is completely against him. Another point is that would not the AM WANT the source cleansed? I do not believe the AM would listen to Taim if he ordered them to stop Rand, for not only would they have a great advantage with it cleansed, but I highly doubt that Taim could force that many AM into doing something - I highly doubt that he could overpower that many of them.


created: 2002-07-15 03:19:34
subject: <b>Re: One comment...</b>
body:
Consider Moridin-Taim's situation.  Stopping Rand from cleansing Saidin is now the Dark One's top priority.<br />Moridin informed the forsaken the Dragon must be taken or killed when he accessed C Kal.  As N'aeblis he would<br />send every weapon at his command, including the Darkfriend Asha'man as Moridin/Taim.  Any risk to &quot;Taim&quot; <br />doesn't compare to the risk of not pleasing the Dark One<br />As for the DF Asha'man refusing to stop Rand from cleasing the taint...isn't one of the beneifits of being a <br />DF male channeler protection against the taint?  Like the male dreadlords in the Trolloc War's.  I also seem <br />to remember Asmoden's comment to Rand after he severed the DO's link with him something about aging and going mad like any other male channeler.   <br />Even if I'm mistaken about DF taint protection, all DF's know treason=death.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-07-15 06:10:14
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Moridin didn't send all the Chosen against Rand and the CK.  All except Mesaana and Semirhage, yes, but not all.  It could be argued that those two wouldn't have been able to get away unnoticed, but I'm not sure if that applies to Mesaana.<br />  As for Taim not turning up, this is a good point.  Anyone who can Travel, IMO, might be expected to turn up wanting to know what's going on, and the Asha'man are conspicuously absent.  I mean any group.  The WT and the Salidar people are probably at war by this time, which explains the absence of any AS from the Salidar side.  I can't imagine why no Wise Ones showed up, unless cadsuane kept them informed.<br />  But why didn't Taim and his men show?  Unless Taim ordered them not to?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 15:49:33
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Though I honestly think that Taim is a new-Age Forsaken or Dreadlord. Remember that the 13 Forsaken that were bound were not the only Forsaken in the AoL, and now that several of the 13 have been put away for good, the DO could use some replacements. Taim could be a Forsaken without being Ishamael, Demandred, or any other male Forsaken still alive. OLr he could be one hella-powerful Dreadlord (he's almost as strong as Rand.)<br /><br />Either way, I'm impatiently waiting to see who or what Taim turns out to be. RJ had better hurry up and tell us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 18:50:57
subject: <b>Moridin's Mask of Mirrors...</b>
body:
Could it simply be one woven from the &quot;superior&quot; TP?  THe scene where Taim's absorbing light around elayne suggests this...


created: 2002-07-24 00:30:43
subject: <b>Too many post to read....</b>
body:
... so exscuse me if I'm saying something that's been pointed out already. I have two comments.<br /><br />   1. I believe it was Asmodean that taught Rand how to resist heat and cold.<br /><br />   2. While this is a lot of convincing evidence it still leaves on problematic question. If Taim is really Moridin in disguise then why was Osangar put in the black tower as well? He could have been better used else where one should think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 05:39:21
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Some of LTT's ravings might back up the Moridin=Taim argument.  In LoC in the scene with Taim after Rand hands out the Asha'man badges, LTT is moaning about how he killed Ilyena, and then says that if he killed 'him' (presumably Taim as that is who Rand is talking to) then everything would be forgiven.  Well, who's death would atone for Ilyena's death but Ishy, the man who told him to do it in the first place?  Also, earlier in that scene, LTT is saying he must 'kill him, and then them' and that 'They must follow him'.  If 'they' means the forsaken, the person most likely to be 'him' would once again be Ishy.  (Oh and I don't think Ishy was a blademaster by the way)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's like that old saying: A conservative is a liberal who's been attacked by aliens</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 04:24:41
subject: <b>Re:Maybe</b>
body:
<br />Ishy didn't tell LTT to kill his family, it was a result of the taint madness.  LTT knows he killed Ilyena,Ishy temporarily cleansed LTT's mind so that he could come the the realization of what he did...and commit suicide after going loony again.  <br />Also, the 'kill him, and then them' isn't definate proof, LTT says this around all male channelers.  I believe LTT's statement about all being forgiven is a result of his guilt about him and the male channelers going mad and breaking the world.  LTT believes by killing all male channelers and preventing a second breaking would be an atonement for <br />the first breaking.


created: 2002-08-13 07:29:17
subject: <b>whew...i read the whole lot of that...</b>
body:
Taimidin seems like a very good argument to me, wismail's retort looked really wishy washy and didnt deal directly and conclusively with the things put forward...(no offense but my opinion).  Some other retorts looked ok, but as far as i have seen, i dont think anyone has actually disproved this theory? <br /><br />The time factor is weak, all Moridin ever does is show up and order some people round and then disappear for chapters on end.  Taim could fill these gaps nicely.  <br /><br />Also, about Rand choosing Dashiva, Ishamael has been shown to be Hawkwing's closest adviser, and claims to be the adviser of a few other people as well.  One of those posts up there said that Taim looked to want to be closer to Rand...aka an adviser. Ishamael's signature tactic.  Anyway, getting back to Dashiva, Taimidin might be worried that Dashiva is getting out from under his thumb, and becoming Rands adviser (sort of) to boot. Arrogant poop that he is, Ishamael would be majorly cut up that Dashiva was able to squeeze in where he was rejected.  <br /><br />so there u go...make me look stupid or something, and if you cant, all the better. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Maverick<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Scourge of the Skies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Seducer of the Women <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-22 10:00:48
subject: <b>Doesn't seem likely that Ishy was Taim from the beginning</b>
body:
I really don't think that Ishamael was pretending to be Mazrim Taim from the beginning of the series.  Firstly, what is the real point for Ishamael to go spending most of his time back in the world acting as a false dragon?  I can't think of any way that would help him, and I doubt even he would be able to see far enough ahead to predict it would help him gain Rand's trust.<br />Also, if Ishy were Mazrim Taim, why did he let himself get caught?  I mean, he was rescued before entering the White Tower, so it's not like he was trying to get into a position to do anything.....Being captured would simply have wasted his time....and, as we've seen, the Dark One doesn't like people who waste time (think Moggy).<br />Finally, as my last point, Rand already killed Ishy once.  Often, the Forsaken seem to completely change tactics when they are reborn (think Balthamel), and it seems unlikely that Ishamael/Moridin would be the only Forsaken we know of to continue old plots from his previous life.<br />Anyway, this is my little piece here, and it's probably full of holes, but it's what I think.  Tell me what's wrong with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The buck stops here.&quot;-Harry S. Truman <br />&quot;Nobody pushes a dwarf.&quot; -Gimli, son of Gloin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Jester-Warrior of the Black Tower<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 18:13:21
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
Well, I really liked this theory for a few days. Unfortunatly, I think I can put it well to rest. I'm just now reading WH again, and on page 316 (Chapter 13), Demandred describes Moridin as having a boy's body, and then later as &quot;youthful&quot;...I don't think that anyone has described Taim as anyting close to youthful or boyish - he is something like 30 yrs old, and I don't think that RJ would slip this comment in here if Taim did look boyish and we just hadn't been told of it. So sorry. I'm still confused as to how he traveled into Rand's chambers without using the True Power or Rand sensing it, but that may just be an oversite on RJs part.<br />


created: 2002-12-02 16:12:37
subject: <b>Maybe not</b>
body:
Taimidin could not have wanted Osangar to get too close to Rand (if indeed he was working for Moridin).  I mean remember the last time Rand was close to a forsaken and didn't kill him.  Asmodean taught Rand many useful things that Moridin wishes he didn't know.  Also it would give Osangar a very good chance to Kill Rand if the DO ever wanted it done, and Moridin wouldn't want any other forsaken to do it because it means he risks remaining nae'blis. Perhaps whoever killed the dragon would be nae'blis.  Anyway its not that big an argument against Taimidin.  I personally like the idea and have sumbitted a theory on the asmodean posts about Taimidin killing asmodean.


created: 2002-12-15 02:49:43
subject: <b>I am going to agree totally....</b>
body:
I agree with this theory totally. I am going to just give a little more evidence to help this theory along.<br />In aPoD Moridin is in the Tarisin Palace watching Elayne and Co. leave through the gateway. After watching the gateway being ripped apart he grabs the True Power and starts ranting about the 'primitives' of this age coming up with new Talents unheard of in his own AoL.  He then goes on to say that it doesnt matter, because its hard to lose when you play both sides.<br />Now, so far moridins sole cause in the series so far is to create more chaos. If he is going to do this effectively he is going to need a position of power, and who better than the M'Hael himself. No one stands higher in the order of the Asha'man than Taim, save Rand himself, and I think RJ has made it clear that the Asha'man will follow Taim before Rand. I think Taims plans are to turn thousands of insane Asha'man loose on the world. What better way to cause chaos than that!<br />Now when Rand takes the Choden' Kal to Shadar Logoth and procedes to cleanse Saiden, Moridin realizes his plans for the Asha'man are about to be for naught, so Taim tries to do something to the 'crew' which upon reading the wotmania review for CoT I assume means the Choden'kal users. Well I cant see Taim doing anything constructive so I'm going to assume that he tries to stop them, but fails.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Keeper of the Peace<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Seeker of Truth0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />-0-Hand of the Light-0-<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Playa 4 life<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Andyman</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 22:17:55
subject: <b>never rerally thought of it before</b>
body:
Ya you know...before I actually read this theory I always thought that it was all a big piece of crap that Mazrim Taim was anything but a channeling Darkfriend....guess I was wrong<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> but i still don't think Taim is Demandred:l...I just don't and I don't even really have a real explanation for it.Well except for at the near end of Winter's Heart where one of the Ashaman(I can't remember the one at the moment<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />) but anyways he was thinking about when Taim had told him to kill Randl:l....and then Demandred had also told him to kill Rand...I don't think that the same Forsaken would bother to tell somebody something twice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> But maybe he is Ishamael...because thinking about all of the Forsaken who have died and been reincarnated by the Dark One<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />...we now basically know who they all are...Cyndane=Lanfear(and we know that cuz at the end of Winter's Heart she's thinking of how LEWS THERIN turned her down<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />)...Osan'gar=Balthamel....Aran'gar=Aginor...Samael and Bel'al can't be reincarnated cuz they were bale fired....and Asmodean probably wouldn't be brought back cuz he was basically a failure...so who's Moridin and Taim...Ishamael.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aquaria<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-18 18:11:27
subject: <b>Jury's Out</b>
body:
Another awesome theory by baphomet.  I really like your writing style; it's very concise and easy to follow.  I wish I could say that about all the blackboard posts, as well.  However, the biggest problem with ANY theory about Taim is that there is no definitive evidence about him.  No smoking gun, to use a vastly overused phrase.  So, while each individual piece of evidence can be argued in terms of merits and flaws, I thought baphomet did a fantastic job generating a good overall concept that ties all those individual pieces together. However, because there are still a number of other excellent possibilities regarding Taim's true motives, most of which have no better or worse merit than any other, I reserve the right to sit on the fence.<br /><br />Having said that I would like to comment briefly on comments. I've seen a number of people referring to the &quot;Chosen&quot; or &quot;Forsaken&quot; as a group. This should be done very cautiously. While they certainly have some common aspects, so generalizations can and should be made, those apsects are pretty limited.  Jordan has spent a fair amount of time describing any number of differences between them, and establishing unique characters for all of them. This is especially true in regards to Ishmael and Moridin, who has experienced a vastly different existence for the last 4000 years than the rest of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-22 14:00:18
subject: <b>Balance with the white tower</b>
body:
<br />Ishamael/Moridin is the 'creator' of the Black Ajah, isn't he?<br /><br />Taim is the 'creator' of the 'Black Ajah' of the Black Tower... this might count for something, with RJ's love of Balance.<br /><br />Taim btw only becomes Moridin after his 'rescue' by the black ajah from the aes Sedai who have captured him (which happens between book 3 and 4, because we hear about it in book 4 -&gt; i.e. just after Ishy's death)<br />


created: 2003-05-19 21:17:36
subject: <b>Taimandred theory not dead yet?</b>
body:
I'm one who never really bought the Taimandred theory before. One thing I dislike about this morridin theory thoguh is that first of all, iut's arguments are all dervied form old Taimandred theory posts.<br /><br />Secondly this goes absed on the pricniple Demandred sin't taim. while Graendal does yell that line about Demandred jsut hoping to bump into him, ebfore that they say that Demandred and Osangar were told to keep an eye on him. The fact that they were grouped together suggests very heavily that they would work togetehr in the black tower.<br /><br />AS tyhrid reason why Demmy is mroe likely than good ol Morridin is one I haven't ntocied anyone else point out. Rand created 'The Farm' in a very loose manor then put 'Taim' in charge of it. Before long 'Taim' has the Black Tower establ;ished like an hoenst to god Military outfit. While Ishy was more of a thinker/philosopher, demandred is famous for being a General, just like Sammael.<br /><br />I am still not 100% convinced of a Taimandred idea, however, I do seriously doubt a Morridin/Taim idea.


created: 2003-05-22 12:31:46
subject: <b>Well I take it back</b>
body:
I finished re-reading Winter's Heart, and at the cleansing of saidin, Demandred sees Damer Flinn and doesn't know who he is. That utterly ruinates that idea.


created: 2003-06-13 13:41:03
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I have to disagree completely.  I will, however, agree that you have made a few points, but some can also be discarded.  For example, the Compulsion one.  Rand figured out Balefire himself, so who's to say Taim didn't do the same with Compulsion?  If I could channel I certainly would fool around and see what I could make, its natural curiosity.  Wards are not exactly a hard thing.  Not having anyone to teach you how to do anything means that you yourself would try to find a way to do certain things, healing too, and as for the seals, Bashere knew what it was as well, so that fact does not mean he is one of the Forsaken.  Nice eye on catching the terms used by Taim, I did not notice that, but two of your points counter each other.  You said Bashere did not recognize Taim the first time.  If Ishamael was posing as Taim as well, he would have looked exactly the same.


created: 2003-09-09 16:19:36
subject: <b>Works for me</b>
body:
I agree whole-heartedly with this one.  All of the major arguments against it can be easily explained away.  My friends and I debated this one as hotly as we ever did &quot;Taimandred&quot;, but this time we reached a consensus.  <br /><br />The biggest stumbling block is the point about Dashiva.  However, if you examine Moridin's role as the apparent CEO of the Chosen, you can come to certain conclusions.  Moridin could easily have made an attempt to &quot;stack the deck&quot; in his favor by bringing in one of the Chosen that are subservient to him.  Rand's seemingly random choice of Dashiva would have waylaid any such plans.  Of course Moridin wouldn't want a sleeper agent removed from his assigned position.<br /><br />Someone in one of the above posts suggested that Ishy didn't like leadership roles or some such, and used this as evidence against.  I would think quite the contrary.  Nae'Blis is DEFFINITELY a leadership type role, and everyone seems to agree that Ishy = Moridin.  Furthermore, when Rand first brings Taim to &quot;The Farm&quot;, Taim seems more than a bit disappointed.  He asks &quot;Is this really what you want from me?&quot; or something very much like that.  <br /><br />The physical descriptions match up very well, particularly when we look at Moghedien's POV in ACoS when we first meet Moridin &quot;face to face&quot;.  Even the apparent ages match up fairly well.  <br /><br />The only evidence we were able to come up with to suggest any real holes in this theory were holdouts of the &quot;Taimandred&quot; ideas... namely in LoC where Demandred watches Elayne in Tel'Aran'rhiod.  At the end of that chapter, Demandred seems to step from the Dream.  Not Travel.  From other examples we've read, stepping in and out takes you to the corresponding spot in the other world (Rand and Ishy in the Stone... Rand and Rhavin in Caemlyn).  Unless we miss our guess, this would have put Demandred in the Throne Room of the Andoran Royal Palace in the middle of the night.  Certainly not the time or place to be an unnanounced visitor.<br /><br />This led to even hotter debate.  If Moridin is Taim, then who in the Pit is Demandred posing as?  I saw RJ at a signing earlier this year, and he said &quot;two books&quot; with the finality of written law.  If there are only two books... about 1,200 pages left, there is NO FRICKIN' WAY Jordan can introduce two new characters that any of us will buy as Moridin or Demandred.  WE MUST KNOW THESE TWO CLOWNS ALREADY.  From there, its only a process of elimination.  One of them has GOT to be Moridin, and this theory settled my mind as to which.<br /><br />Right on, Baph...


created: 2003-12-28 15:50:20
subject: <b>Moridin's Motive for Being Taim</b>
body:
If Ishy is going to bring himself so close to Rand, there has to be a good reason.  I'm fairly sure that it is Ishy's need to have the Dragon knowingly suffer at Ishy's hand.  Evidence for this can be found in the prologue of tEotW.  While LTT is being his mad self, Elan Morin Tedronai (The Betrayer of Hope = Ishy) comes in and yells for LTT to &quot;Remember you Light-blinded idiot!  I will not let it end with you swaddled in unawareness!  Remember!&quot;  He obviously wants LTT to know who is causing his end.  Later, after LTT has formed Dragonmount, Ishy says, &quot;You cannot escape so easily, Dragon.  It is not done between us.  It is not done until the end of time.&quot;  Ishy must somehow get close to the Dragon in order to cause him the greatest pain.  Also, Ishy subtitle is &quot;The Betrayer of Hope.&quot;  In a previous post it was mentioned that Ishy is more of a manipulator.  What better way is there to be a betrayor then to use his manipulative power to turn Rand's army against him?  Although Sammael's hatred of LTT is well documented, it is just as likely that Ishy hates the Dragon, but he has hated the Dragon far longer than Sammael has hated LTT.  Ishy states: &quot;This war has not lasted ten years but since the begining of time.  You and I have fought a thousand battles, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the shadow is triumphant!&quot;  He knows he will always be fighting the Dragon, therefore he would try a much subtler way to get near his enemy.<br /><br />Also, LTT ALWAYS goes crazy whenever Rand goes near Taim.  The last person LTT had contact with when he was alive was Ishy.  Ishy pointed out the fact that LTT killed his family (especially Ilyena), &quot;heals&quot; his memory with his &quot;new power,&quot; then laughs at LTT as he sees the destruction he has caused.  <br /><br />Who would be the one person that LTT hates with the most pasion?  Ishy - the one who made him see his dead family.  Who would Ishy most want to torture?  The Dragon - who has evaded his grasp since the bigining of time.  There is more than enough cause for Ishy want to get close to the Dragon, and what better way to get first hand knowledge of the Dragon's doings than by being the head of his arm?.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" />*sniff*  Need I say more?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Tshania_Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 10:51:43
subject: <b>Demandored Is Taim</b>
body:
Here is proof to stop all of your discussions about taim being Moridin.<br /><br />Here is a question of the week from the TOR WOT site.<br />Question: <br /><br />At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?<br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. &lt;Maniacal laughter from the shadows!&gt;<br /><br />The most important word in the question and answer is posed. Demandored has never POSED as Taim. Demandored IS Taim. I dont know how anyone got the idea that Jordan would give you a straight answer to such a well kept secret. Jordan is the best Aes Sedai of the group giving you a truth but not the truth you think. Come on we all know we have to read in to Jordans words. This is one of the situations where Jordan would use  his FAVORITE saying READ AND FIND OUT. <br /><br />Just to recap this not really theory but fact. <br />TAIM IS DEMANDORED!<br /><br />Torch this if you want but you cant when you read the facts. <br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-26 09:38:05
subject: <b>Don't judge a book by its cover...</b>
body:
Throughout this theory, everyone either relies on either specific actions or physical appearances.  No one seems to have bothered with actually comparing the personalities/demeanors of the two people at question, Moridin and Taim.  Taim is constantly showing emotions ranging from irritation to frustration to surprise at the various antics of the Dragon Reborn, whether for being told to work on the &quot;Farm,&quot; or for being ordered to teach swordplay, or for the shock of Rand randomly picking out Dashiva, etc.  From what we have seen of Moridin, both from his POV and others, his demeanor is unwavering: he seems to be in a constant state of all-knowing, superior arrogance.  He seems to be constantly wearing an amused smile, whether to express derision for the Forsaken or for the primitives of the Third Age.  In fact, as far as I can remember, there is only one point where we see Moridin express an emotion different from that confident amusement.  This is when he is watching Aviendha's gateway from the shadows in PoT and he sees it seem to melt away as she unravels it.  This simple act launches Moridin into another emotion never expressed by Taim: psychopathic rage.  Moridin is so angry he immediately seizes the True Power and kills the unlucky Agent of Dark that happens to be standing next to him at the time without even meaning to.  There is no middle ground between these two emotions.  Perhaps this lack of diversity is part of Moridin's madness.  However, it seems very unlikely that RJ would display Moridin as so static and display Taim's wide range of emotions (as well as the fact that he hides them so poorly, even Rand can see them for what they are) if they were the same person.  Demandred is much closer in personality.  By itself, this argument might not prove what I'd like to compliment as an extremely well-researched and thought out theory, but put together with all the other speculations inherent in it, I just don't buy it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Come out from under the hood, Demmy<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Wow, didn't see that one coming<br /><br />RJ strikes again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> <i>Hehehehe</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 20:40:19
subject: <b>You Poor, Poor Saps</b>
body:
What I absolutely LOVE about most of the posters on this disgustingly long blackboard is that all of the Taimidin supporters stubbornly believe that Moridin, Demandred, every Forsaken HAS to have a &quot;SECRET IDENTITY.&quot;  So, with careful logic, I have decided who Demandred REALLY IS.<br /><br />Sammael says that &quot;events to the south have Demandred's mark all over them.&quot;  Well, what's to the south of Illian?  THE SEA FOLK ISLANDS!!!  Well, we've only see a couple of Sea Folk in the books.  There's a limited choice here, we should be able to narrow it down!!<br /><br />Jorin din Jubai White Wing<br />Pro:  We've never seen her again since TSR!  That in itself is suspicious!<br />Con:  Was able to hold coherent conversations with Elayne/Nynaeve.  Demandred would have balefired them after the first three words.<br /><br />Nesta din Raes Two Moons<br />Pro:  In a position of power!  The Mistress of Ships!  Can't get much better than that, Demmy!<br />Con:  She's dead.<br /><br />Raab (That guy who followed Mat around in Tar Valon in TDR)<br />Pro:  He followed Mat around!  Obviously he was looking for an opening for Compulsion!<br />Con:  I can't think of any!  It must be him!<br /><br />So, now that we've concluded that Demandred = Raab, we can look for Moridin.  After careful consideration, I have concluded that he is Hurin.  Yeah, Hurin.  That guy always was a little TOO eager to please Rand.<br /><br />No, in all seriousness, take a look at Ishy's MO in the first three books.  Except when he blew it at the end of TDR, Ishy pretty much showed himself for what he was.  Operating through the Black Ajah, Darkfriends such as Fain and Carridin, and the other Forsaken, he managed to hold things together for 3000+ years.  Is he likely to change now?  No.  Moridin is the same way: his proxies (read that quote from PoD about the &quot;eyes that don't even know they serve him&quot; ) are directly manipulated by him to achieve the Master Plan of the Shadow (TM).  Why would Moridin need to BE Taim when he can just order him around?<br /><br />REMEMBER!!  In PoD, Moridin is PLAYING the game.  He's not IN the game.  The Forsaken and the Good Guys, et al, are the pieces.  Remember how Semi (at the beginning of LOC) thinks about how the DO is &quot;moving&quot; her and the others like pieces in a game.  The DO and Ishy are one in purpose. Just think of Taim, and Graendal as &quot;Lady Basene&quot; and Sammy as &quot;Lord Brend&quot; as the pieces.  Like the latest Collectible Card Game.  <br /><br />Moridin isn't on a card.  He's the Dungeonmaster.<br /><br />So, you guys can keep postulating on Taim = this or that, but before you say it's Moridin, you should probably think about it in ways more than just skin deep.<br /><br />And keep an eye on Hurin whenever you read The Great Hunt.  He still strikes me as kinda shifty.


created: 2005-03-06 19:09:05
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
I dont know if this has been said before but isnt it possible that Taim has his own LTT voice like Rand? This would account for his use of AoL terminology and his knowledge of the power.<br />Maybe his voice is one of the lesser forsaken, who were not trapped in the bore, or perhaps one of the original companions(which would not account for hif DF atitudes etc, unless he was one who resented LTT like Ishmael did).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-11 18:32:00
subject: <b>Dont think so</b>
body:
Rand has LTT in his head because of the wierd things the Pattern spits out, like &quot;Reborn&quot; people.  I dont think the Pattern does it frequently...<br /><br />Also, this is assuming Taim is not Moridin, but I would like to point out that Taim is older than Rand, and since he is VERY strong in the power, that means he would have had the spark of channeling in him, and first started channeling from his late teens.<br />Rand learned a whole bunch of things before Asmodeon came along, and he hadnt been using the power for much more than a year, so it is logical that Taim could have learned a crude form of Compulsion and practiced it quite frequently in the years between him beginning to channel and meeting Rand.


created: 2005-10-12 22:53:04
subject: <b>KOD updates</b>
body:
***KOD Spoilers***<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Thought I'd just update this after having finished KOD.  The very last scene in the novel gives us some more information to work with.  Taim's palace has black and red floor tiles all over the place, two colours we know Moridin likes.  And then Taim uses that phrase, 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' which tells us a fair bit about Taim that we hadn't been certain of previously.  Up until this point, whilst it was highly likely Taim was a DF, there was no definitive proof.  This certainly lets us know where Taim stands.  Furhtermore, this particular line, AFAIK, has primarily been used amongst the Chosen, which at the very least shows Taim to have very high standing amongst the Shadow.<br /><br />So I think my theory has taken a step closer to being realised, though I do acknowledge that there are other explanations.  Who's to say Moridin doesn't have a third mindtrap hanging around his neck?  The connection between Moridin and Taim has been strongly established - now we just have to see what the exact nature of that connection might be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-20 13:17:51
subject: <b>Remember the Old Saying</b>
body:
At the end of KoD, RJ hits us over the head with evidence supporting the idea that Taim is Moridin. <br />The evidence:<br /><br />&quot;The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors.&quot; KoD, Remember the Old Saying<br /> <br />&quot;Besides, you must remember the old saying. Let the lord of chaos rule.&quot; KoD, Remember the Old Saying<br /><br />Now, I realize that two measley quotes do not confirm a theory, but the quotes are quite evocative. Moridin's personal colors are, you guessed it, red and black. Is it coincidence that Taim's palace is decked out in red and black? Maybe.<br /><br />The strongest evidence is Taim's quoting the &quot;old saying&quot;. It is obvious that this is no old saying, as Pevara has never heard anything like it. But we have. The only people ever to utter that phrase are the DO itself and the Forsaken. <br /><br />However, since this is a WoT novel, there is conflicting evidence. As the Red Ajah embassy walks in to Taim's palace they notice:<br /><br />&quot;(T)all twinned doors ... Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, &quot; KoD, Remember the Old Saying<br /><br />At first, I thought that the imagery here simply spoke to the chanelling power of the Asha'man. But then I stumbled across this quote:<br /><br />&quot;A compact man of middling height, with a livid scar acros his face and a square golden beard, leaned forward angrily. His chair was heavy wood, carved with columns of armored men and horses, a steel-guantleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.&quot; TFoH, A Silver Arrow<br /><br />Could Taim actually be Sammael? We learn in KoD that someone that looks like Sammael has been seen recently. This could also explain why &quot;Taim&quot; shaved his beard; he wanted no association with his true identity. <br /><br />However, if I had to bet, I would say that Taim is Moridin.


created: 2005-12-03 22:17:33
subject: <b>Most likely</b>
body:
You get more proof in KoD that he is indeed Taim. No servants while Moridin only uses zomara, there's something odd with his eyes which=saa, and the dreamwalker's dream of a man standing next to Rand with a knife to his throat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-25 10:04:46
subject: <b>Remember the Old Saying</b>
body:
I gotta say that if RJ isn't planning on revealing Taim as Moridin in AMoL, then he's really laying it on thick with the epilogue to KoD.<br /><br />First, we get the repeated color scheme within the palace of red and black. Then we get the same sigil as the one on the coaches used by black ajah from TDR. THEN, on top of everything else, we hear Taim speak the words that caused my blood to freeze: &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule!&quot; There is simply no way that he could know that phrase without having had communion with the Forsaken, and coupled with all the imagery within the palace, not to mention everything gone over in detail here in this theory, it's pretty strong evidence that Taim is Moridin.<br /><br />I do not think, however, that Ishamael was Taim from the beginning. That does not account for the shaving of the beard/moustaches that every Saldaean has. If Ishamael had invented Taim from the start, there would have been no need to alter his appearance.<br /><br />All in all, though, I'm not 100% convinced. It doesn't explain why Moridin allowed Osan'gar to infiltrate the Asha'man, nor does it explain how surprised Taim was to learn that &quot;Dashiva&quot; was a turncoat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Before you attempt to beat the odds, be sure you could survive the odds beating you.<br /><br />&quot;Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.&quot;--Arthur Dent</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-21 16:14:36
subject: <b>i know nothing</b>
body:
we all know demandred was masquerading as an asha man. so wouldn't it make sense that taim was trained by demandred? Just a thought


created: 2008-01-18 15:08:04
subject: <b>New Evidence?</b>
body:
At the very end of Knife of Dreams when the Aes Sedai walk into Taim's throne room, Pevara notices the palace is mostly black and red. &quot;Taim must particularly like those colors.&quot; Sounds familiar....


created: 2008-12-17 15:36:40
subject: <b>other similarities</b>
body:
I cant remeber which book, but when Moridin enters he has the 2 mind-trapped forsaken wearing black and red because they are his colors.  <br /><br />Then in the epilogue of KoD it says that he has the room and people


created: 2008-12-17 15:38:16
subject: <b>OOPS continued from previous</b>
body:
Taim has his room and people decorated in black and red because those also are his favorite colors.<br /><br />coninsidence? i think not


created: 2002-07-10 18:10:25
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
All Fades can sense the OP. Remember, the one said &quot;I itch&quot; when Eggy &amp; Co were going to be sold (right before the Aiel came in).<br /><br />Otherwise, something to chew on...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pike-Captain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Prepare to pass the Heart Guard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <br />Its time to dance with Jak o' the Shadows! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />War is evil. But sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils.- Kissinger<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 18:24:30
subject: <b>Good ideas, a bit awry</b>
body:
I think the DO has been getting fed up with his human agents (the Forsaken).<br /><br />They've let an untrained boy outmaneuver them time and again, destroying several of them.  They've had a number of their plots fall apart, primarily through their own blind arrogance, as they constantly underestimate these 'half-trained girls'.  They seem to totally discount Aiel and Sea People channelers.  So far, their major Achille's Heel has been their constant lack of respect for their opposition.<br /><br />What's interesting so far, to play off some comments from the previous theory's thread about Demandred-Moridin, is that the Demandred camp seems to be the most effective.  Perhaps Moridin is reigning in the incompetents. <br /><br />Mesaana has certainly roiled up the White Tower.  Demandred is evidently successful at doing whatever the heck he's doing, and I'm not sure of Semirhage's purpose, but until Rand's (overdue) offensive, the Seanchan were tooling about causing trouble over a disturbingly large part of the continent. <br /><br />And Graendal sits, more or less aloof, from the squabbles, darting in to make a key grab here or there.  Actually, I probably need to shape this into the theory.  Just what exactly IS the Dark One doing?  It seems as if the efforts of the Forsaken are actually galvanizing resistance; certainly counterproductive. <br /><br />I still think Graendal is going to be one of the last three, if not the last one.  She more than Moghedien will lurk to pick it up when Demandred and Moridin (and Rand) slug it out.  Moghedien lurks merely to survive in the high stakes game; Graendal lurks to win.


created: 2002-07-10 18:29:05
subject: <b>Er...Forgot the SH part...</b>
body:
SH's job is to whip the Forsaken into shape, since they've been pretty slack.  I don't think so much that he's closely tied to Moridin, but he's the heavy at Shayol Ghul.  He doesn't have the standard weakness for ambition that has so often gotten in the way of the Chosen.


created: 2002-07-10 18:41:01
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
In TDR, page 453, a mydraal &quot;itched&quot; when Egwene began to channel. I have taken this to mean that all mydraal have some sort of ability to sense someone channeling, and not some special power possessed only by SH.<br /><br />That being said, this is an interesting theory. What I would ask is why was it required to &quot;blend&quot; the two together? Why not just give Ishamael a new body. Of course, we really don;t know much about WHY SH is so different. If we did, we would have a much better idea about this theory.<br /><br />Peace out, V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 20:50:28
subject: <b>I like this theory, but...</b>
body:
I can see at least a few problems.  As with my theory about Moridin/Taim, you're suggesting Moridin must have been around since the start of Bk6.  I have no problems with this, but some might.<br />  Secondly, with Moggy in the vacuole, she recalls that SH showed her the mindtrap on all previous visits, but not on that particular visit.  I also think that the place she goes to is peculiar, as it isn't like any other such place we've seen the Chosen meeting before.  Even though she thinks on a number of occasions that it must be near SG, this is only supposition; she could have been anywhere.<br /> Finally, does SH use the TP?  I know he burnt the spear with black flames, but is this necessarily the TP?  We haven't seen much of the TP in action, unfortunately.  The way he sheilds people, so that they cannot even sense the source is odd, too, and sounds more like a stedding effect than anything else, to me.  Which begs the question, could someone with a well use the OP against SH?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 21:12:37
subject: <b>No....</b>
body:
Sorry but I do not agree.  Your thinking and thats good.  I just don't agree with this thought.  Also to say again what others already have,  Fades can sense channeling and we've seen this from the start.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 01:05:04
subject: <b>Uh...yah, they can</b>
body:
Umm..yah, they can columbo, but anyway, i like the theory, but I don't think this is the case. We saw Mordin in Ebou Dar and as well as as far south as Caherein (sp). If they had a leash to SG, they they would have mentioned needing to be back i'm sure....but thats just my thoughts...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 01:30:03
subject: <b>I don't see it...</b>
body:
but as Columbo said above, it is nice to see some original ideas for once.<br /><br />When we see Slayer's PoV, he lets us know that he is both Luc and Isam. If that were true here, there would be at least SOME reference to it.<br /><br />It is odd that they are never in the same room together, though. Hmmm.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 10:40:39
subject: <b>Probably missing the whole point</b>
body:
but i always thought Shaidar Haran was the Dark One as a physical proxy hence the &quot;hand of the shadow&quot; <br /><br />the seals are mostly broken and he touches the world more so why not have a Super Fade that you can slip into and get some work done.  <br /><br />if he can put the dead in new bodies why not himself is something so out of phase with reality and touched by evil?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 16:12:01
subject: <b>First of all...</b>
body:
...yes, fades can sense channeling.  The difference is that SH can differentiate between Saidin and Saidar, no other fades can.  And also, when he shields people, they can sense the source, just not touch it, more of a severing feel than stedding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 16:28:05
subject: <b>OP around SH</b>
body:
Actually, Osangar thinks that he can't even feel the Source around SH at the beginning, which is more the Stedding feel than the Severed feel.  A severed person can feel but can't touch the Source.<br />I like the idea but the only problem is the dual perspective with the Watcher.  Moridin is the Watcher and observed outside the Shaido camp before Travelling away.  SH came into the camp after the Shaido left.  If you can explain that part, this is a really good theory.


created: 2002-07-12 09:28:08
subject: <b>There may well be a connection</b>
body:
The two seem to have the same function, and seem to be involved with the same tasks.  SH originally had Moggy's mindtrap, then Moridin did.  Moridin was watching Sammael and Graendal dealing with the Shaido, then SH was.  Moridin sent Cyndane and Moggy to reign in Graendal, SH appeared when things went awry.<br />  If they are not connected in some fashion, I'd be curious to know which has the higher position.  I know SH is the hand of the dark, but Moridin is Nae'blis.  Did Moridin command SH to watch Sammy and Graendal because he was busy elsewhere, or to reign in Graendal when his agents failed?  Or was this simply SH taking the initiative, or acting under direct orders from the DO?<br />  How did SH know when to intervene in that episode with Graendal?  <br />  If Moridin shielded someone with the TP, would they be able to sense the Source, or would they have a similar experience to those who have been shielded by SH?  <br />  It even seems to me a possibility that the two share the same body, yet Moridin is unaware of SH, whilst SH knows of Moridin.  Wouldn't that be interesting?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 10:13:17
subject: <b>If they are the same...</b>
body:
then why would SH give the mindtrap to himself? What purpose would that serve? I don't think she would be more indimitated by Moridin than SH, especially when he took all that loving care in properly torturing her.<br /><br />Peace Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 10:35:35
subject: <b>If they were the same...</b>
body:
he/it wouldn't have to give the mindtrap to himself, he/it would already have it!<br /> However, I think it would be better for the DO to have Moridin and SH as two separate agents rather than combined into one, simply for versatility.  <br />  The degree to which they work on the same things, though, is very interesting.  And so are those black flames SH uses on that spear.  On re-reading, I'd agree that probably was the TP, and wonder if they aren't the same being.  Who knows.<br />  The funniest thing about that passage was this:<br /> <font size="-1"><b>&quot; The Myrddraal moved from the deeper shadows, becoming visible.  <i> In its eyes</i>, the gateways had left a residue... &quot;</b></font><br /> Eyes?? I thought Fades had no eyes...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 11:39:13
subject: <b>Clarifications.</b>
body:
I thinkthat the reason the DO had to blend SH and Moridin is to make SH.  I personally don't think it possible to do that to a Myrddraal without some really heavy consequences or we would have a slew of super-Fades.  So while i agree that the two separately would be a MUCH better advantage to the DO it may not be possible to separate the two and have them retain their gifts.<br /><br />As for the Halfmen being able to sense the OP they can feel it but cannot tell the difference between the two whereas SH can.<br /><br />To ctown_woody:   I think that SH was there for the second exchange where Caddar/Sammael gave the WO's the 'traveling boxes' its just that he for obvious reasons chose to remain hidden.  I think he was there becuase the DO was concerned with what Sammael and Graendal were up to and making sure they don't foul up other plans which I think Moridin was concerned they might do.  Personally I think that the passage is just a convenient way to let us judge SH's power.  If SH had a stedding effect, then Sammael and Graendal wouldn't have been able to channel then, therefore I think this is proof of the TP being used, it may be something he can turn on and off but i think that logically it would be more likely for him to be able to use the TP seeing as how we haven't seen a Myrddraal shoot black flames, hide the source from a channeler or create floating globes of pitch blackness.<br /><br />I also wanted to quote where I got the idea for this theory In TDR Verin lets Egwene read a passage of Dark Prophecy, its pg 237 in the paperback version.  But it reads &quot;Heart of the Dark. Ba'alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried in secret cloaked in secret. Betrayer of Hope.  Ishamael betrays all hope.  Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth.  A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Betrayer of Hope?  Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is-&quot;   then it cuts off.  I think most of us take it at face value that this says Ishamael is/was Ba'alzamon. But If we look at the last part, 'Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow' I think thats a direct reference to SH.  He has a soul of shadow, seeing as how he is as nasty as you can get.  Plus I think he has THE soul of the shadow, meaning he in someway was more than just imbued with power but with a bit of the DO.  Like the taint of saidin the DO tainted the already dark soul of the fade in blending him.  I think that this passage refers to SH keeping Ishy/Moridin honest as it were.<br /><br />As for the two being south, I think that they can infact go very far south, just not for long periods of time or they begin to get weak.  I think the reason the get weak like SH showed us is that their bodies begin to reject the other because of the order in the pattern, and as we see rises in chaos we will see them become more powerful and able to work for longer periods of time away from SG.


created: 2002-07-12 15:33:10
subject: <b>arn't you a good boy</b>
body:
extra brownie points for using as many names of a fade as posible? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 15:50:42
subject: <b>And spelling it right...</b>
body:
I hate typing myrddraal all the time, plus there are so many neat nicknames that I couldn't help it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-12 21:16:55
subject: <b>To clarify that 'stedding' affect thing</b>
body:
I just meant to point out that the only other situation that I can think of where people lost all sense of the True Source, is in a stedding, and also I guess, with that thing in Far Madding.<br />  I didn't mean that wherever SH goes he causes a field that prevents people from being able to sense the Source.<br />  For example, Moghedien in Ch25 of ACOS thinks about the fact that she isn't shielded that last time SH comes to see her, so it definitely seems to be something he can control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 21:32:22
subject: <b>Severed Hand</b>
body:
One way or another, I am of the belief that Shadar Haran will be Rand's &quot;Severed Hand&quot; -- severed from the True Power that is!!  Admins didn't like that theory for some reason, but make of it what you will....<br /><br />OA


created: 2002-08-24 11:03:34
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
But I have one criticism:<br />&#8220;A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come.&#8221;<br />Dizzy  Spell? I don't buy. Maybe the DO wants a servant that is loyal. It sounds like Shadar Haran has schemes of his own going on. Wouldn't you want a servant who always had to return to you? Kind of like Ogier and Steddings.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-27 20:52:49
subject: <b>Maybe, but I think not.</b>
body:
There are plenty of good points there, and maybe there is a link between SH and Moridin, but SH has been around since the beginning of the series.  I believe somebody even posted it on the Theory Post too.  If you remember back to EOTW, when they were in the Inn where they met Min, a Myrdraal approaches Rand down the corridor.  The myr has a smile on its face, SH is the only myr to smile.  Also, in TGH, the assault of the Sheinaran fortress, a myr approaches Rand when Uno(?) shows up and tells him to run.  The myr smiles at Rand when he's walking towards him.  And there are other incidenses throughout the series that we spot our smiling friend.  So, maybe they were linked after Moridin was created, but he's been around forever and I think started with these powers when created.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />Jerrod<br />May Odin protect and watch over you all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 05:41:32
subject: <b>multiple personality?</b>
body:
I've been wondering for a while who/what shaidar haran is....<br /><br /><br />If Moridin=Ishy, is SH a physical Manifestation of the DO???  I think it would be possible that the seals have weakened to an extent where the DO is able to make a physical appearance in the world for limited periods.<br /><br />If he's away from SG for too long, he experiences weakness.....If SG is the main location of his &quot;essence&quot; and he can only manifest as SH, is it possible that extended periods as SH wear him out?<br /><br /><br />I actually like the idea though that Moridin and SH are actually a dual personality, such as the isam/slayer character.<br /><br />We already have a couple of multiple personality characters running around after all....Lews Therin/Rand (that hasn't been explained to my satisfaction yet)... Fain/Mordeth/Ordeith etc.... Luc/Isam/Slayer.....<br /><br />I have no idea if this is even possible, but what if Shaidar Haran and Moridin are working on the same goals but unaware that they are the same person.  That would explain why SH might return to a location where Moridin was observing previously.  Seems a bit kooky, but it IS a possible explanation.<br /><br />Moridin/SH says &quot;I'm anointed as Naeblis, and so am I.&quot;


created: 2003-01-13 10:56:43
subject: <b>Why wasn't the DO home to visitors ?</b>
body:
Just remembered something that may be relevant, one of the forsaken, a woman I think, said that she went to SG 2 or 3 times only to meet SH and each time the DO wasn't there.<br /><br />What does that all mean then ?!


created: 2003-01-20 00:05:03
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
The DO not being there, maybe its just biding its time until the bore is exposed and it can increase the size of it.  No sense tryting to break something you know you can't directly break.  I think that SH and Moridin are starting to bleed into eachother, like how Ishy thought he was the DO and now SH does seem to at times at least.  It almost reminds me of the fisher peice of the board game.  When he is Moridin he has set abilities and when SH he has others.


created: 2007-03-29 10:44:09
subject: <b>glad to final see this</b>
body:
I never had enough evidence (or time) to creat a well though out post (like this one) on this subject but always thought moridin and SH were the same. Things like never seen togeather (more to the point the hole closer your eyes scene) and  but aside from that the quest was first why the binding. probably because the DO wants to keep the 2 as septeart minds, not merge into one like Aran'gar and Osan'gar do which would explain the other coment of SH was seen earlier, (or a smileing fade anyway) much like the luc/Isam (one dead one alive but both are) ishy died SH was alive. just some random thoughts


created: 2007-04-07 04:32:51
subject: <b>yep</b>
body:
always thought so too. They just seem to have a similar detached sort of sense of humor, and I don't think anyone else has it.<br /><br />Also, how likely is it that the great mighty Morridin will be sitting about waiting for the puny pathetic Moghedien? Isn't it more likely that Shadar Haran enters with her, except as he enters walks through the wall of the vacuole he shifts into Morridin? Surely, if the point has been to torture Moghedien, telling her to keep her eyes open would do the job much better than telling her to close them. But maybe he didn't want her to see that SH and Morridin are one.


created: 2002-07-11 12:45:21
subject: <b>????</b>
body:
Interesting (if far-fetched and proabably ridiculous) theory, but where's your proof?  <br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-11 13:58:51
subject: <b>Well, here it goes...</b>
body:
It is almost certain that the &quot;secret AS guardians&quot;(SASG) would be kept from the run of the mill sister in the tower, or they would destroy the alleged hidden voice ter'angreal (sp); picture the Reds finding out about this? But, the SASG would have been recorded in the secret history of the tower that is known only to the Amyrlin, Keeper, &amp; Sitters for the Ajah's. Now, with that you have the Red High Command knowing and at least, though not since Bonwhin during Hawkwing, 1 Red Amyrlin knowing of the existence of the alleged ter'angreal.<br /><br />Now,Suian &amp; Mo hid the fact from the tower that Rand was the DR for the fear that som Sister(s) would gentle him even knowing that he was the DR. Why? Tradition &amp; Law of the tower to do just that to any man who could touch the source. How much more would the Sitters, who are long in the use of the power &amp; stepped in the traditions/law of the tower, want to destroy this ter'angreal, not just to keep them from the DR, but from any False Dragon/ Darkfriend?<br /><br />In a nut shell, I don't think this is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pike-Captain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Prepare to pass the Heart Guard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <br />Its time to dance with Jak o' the Shadows! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />War is evil. But sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils.- Kissinger<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 15:25:45
subject: <b>A possibility</b>
body:
I like the idea that Far Madding was set up for a greater purpose than peace of mind for non-channelers.  But I don't buy the &quot;voices&quot; ter'angreal.<br /><br />The current paradigms of male channeling knowledge can easily be explained by other methods.  It's fairly obvious Taim has had some Forsaken-type education at some point, and Dashiva (Balthamel) spent quite a bit of time with the asha'man.  As for Rand, not only does he have the whole &quot;required by the pattern ta'veren&quot; thing going on to help him out, but he also had a Forsaken teaching him for a while.<br /><br />I think it's far more likely there's a cache of male attuned angreal (and maybe that mysterious &quot;2nd most powerful&quot; sa'angreal) hidden in the city.  It's fairly well documented that destroying *'angreal is near impossible, so it would be logical that they would be hidden - hence their scarcity in present day.


created: 2002-07-11 15:30:05
subject: <b>Well, what if...</b>
body:
... Far Madding does hide TA that were thought to be needed by the DR. It is entirely possible that the reason wasn't even recorded in the secret records of the Amyrlin. I doubt SS and Mor EVER had a written record of their plot to find the DR. I actually like this part of the theory, even though there is not much to go on.<br /><br />Cads is from Far Madding. She is really old, and she knows how to handle men that can channel (women who can channel for that matter). It's possible that is the &quot;defenders of the hidden stash of cool angreal stuff&quot; work entirely independent of the WT, and Cads just stumbled into it. (boy, that is a stretch.)<br /><br />I'm not sure what benefit they would have had from creating a ter'angreal that would make male channelers hear voices. I've always assumed, as does Cads, that was a minifistation of the taint.<br /><br />Anyway, this is the most original theory I've seen in a long time. Good work.<br /><br />Peace, Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 15:53:09
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
I don't think so.  You assume that the ter angreal was created after Saidin was tainted?  You've spent time with this but still I cannot agree with this theory.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 16:00:16
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
I have little to add; but I just wanted to congratulate you on a great theory.  I don't agree with your jump to the voices being an artifact of ter'angreal.  I don't think it's possible to acheive that kind of complexity/power; and if it were, there would be a few hints from RJ so we're not all taken by surprise.  RJ rarely blindsids, he seeks the huge OOHHhhhh as we all realize that THAT's what that phrase meant 6 books ago.  That's what makes him the man.<br /><br />Far Madding is definitely hiding something, and I have no idea what...


created: 2002-07-11 16:14:26
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
The two quotes you used -<br /><br />&quot;They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and....And we have no choice.&quot; (TSR, Ch. 26) <br /><br />&quot;The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!&quot; (TSR, Ch. 26)<br /><br />- referred to the Eye of the World. Notice how they were talking about it with Shomeshta (sp?) there and if you remember the Eye was the physical form of untainted Saidin. A well of sorts to protect the things the Dragon would need to win TG. They should need males to make that.<br /><br />As for Cadsuane's <i>*'angreal</i>...remember that Nynaeve also has the same things and she got them from Ebou Dar. I think Cadsuane 'borrowed permanently' her items from the Tower or from the Stone or from somewhere else.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> One thing is certain: Cadsuane has knowledge of the voices. Although she has captured more men than any other sister it is doubtful that she learned of it from them. The Asha'man have never spoken of it, even amongst themselves. So, she must have learned of it at the source, at Far Madding.</b></font><br /><br />This is the one main false premises you used. Cadsuane does tell us where she learned of men hearing voices:<br /><br />&quot;Some fought to the bitter end, kicking and screaming even after they were shielded and bound. Some wept and begged, offering gold, anything, their very souls, not to be taken to Tar Valon. Still others wept from relief, meek as lambs, thankful finally to be done with it.&quot; (CoS, Ch. 18 )<br /><br />It seems that these men would tell Cadsuane a great deal about themselves and their condition. In fact, Cadsuane has probably heard it all. So much that she feels confident saying:<br /><br />&quot;Now you know,&quot; she said at last,calm as ever, &quot;that I know your future, <b>and your present</b>. The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?&quot; (ibid)<br /><br />I agree Far Madding holds a secret beyond what we know but I don't think you are on the right track. One other thing though. We haven't seen a <i>ter'angreal</i> yet that blocks saidin but not saidar. Maybe the <i>ter'angreal</i> at Far Madding blocks both by default but blocks saidin further than saidar because it was made by women. (Kind of the idea that a man can Heal a severed woman to full but a woman can't. Gender differentiation/complimentation and all that...)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 16:19:52
subject: <b>The AOL quotes...</b>
body:
Deal with the creation of the eye of the world-the actual thing itself.  The Green Man said that they created pure saidin, working past the taint.  The effort killed them.  As leaders of the remaining Aes Sedai after everything started going to hell, someone saying, &quot;Hey!  Let's all kill ourselves.&quot; is going to take some explaining.<br />Great theory as far as trying to put pieces together.  However, I think we are done with Far Madding.  It was a convenient place to put Rand and the renegades on equal footing, even for a little bit.


created: 2002-07-11 16:27:36
subject: <b>hum...</b>
body:
i think that the voices part of this theory is very far fetched and ridiculous.... however, i do believe the idea that far madding is hiding something is very interesting.


created: 2002-07-11 17:46:08
subject: <b>Why does Far Madding have to be hiding something?</b>
body:
I think you are looking for needless complications where the answer is probably very simple.  After the breaking, people didn't want to have anythink to do with certain types of violence.  Thye saw the OP as a means to commit violence, so they found a way to keep it out of their lives. <br />   This also explains why people is Far Madding are more passive.  They don't wan't anything that has to do with violence.<br /><br />Just my two cents<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-12 02:35:57
subject: <b>Well I like it.</b>
body:
Even if I dont think that it's all neccisarily true, it is a very interesting idea. After all, the fact that... oops. Almost spoiled a future theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 03:20:49
subject: <b>I think the theory is farfetched but consider...</b>
body:
the statement made by Lews Therin in Rand's head in the fifth paragraph of Chapter 17: The Wheel of Life, Lord Of Chaos:<br /><br />&quot;You never escape the traps you spin yourself.&quot;  Lews Therins murmur sounded confused.  &quot;Only a greater power can break a power, and then you're trapped again.  Trapped forever so you cannot die.&quot;<br /><br />What do you think this could mean?


created: 2002-07-12 04:17:00
subject: <b>No idea</b>
body:
What's the context? That should provide a clue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 12:13:59
subject: <b>Really, really nice...</b>
body:
The fact that you deduced that Far Madding is hiding something is really good.  Not only does Cadsuanne have a connection there, but you forgot that Vanin does, as well.  Remember - she was there about 70 years before.  In her POV she hopes that the people there don't remember her.  And then she gives a false name.<br /><br />I think both Cadsuanne and Vanin know something about Far Madding, or found something there, that will be really important later on.<br /><br />If you remember, Vanin was about to poison Cadsuanne until she declared her intentions of helping Rand.  Maybe there's something there that could be used to completely destroy Rand's plans.<br /><br />I thought it was interesting that those two Aes Sedai seemed more comfortable leaving Far Madding and going to cleanse the taint (something that is by far more risky) than they are going there in the first place.  What would make these two unflappable Aes Sedai so ruffled?<br /><br />Add that to the idea that maybe the Ter'Angreal isn't there for peace of mind but to cover up something - something to do with the power - and you have some really interesting ideas.<br /><br />Remeber when Nynaeve channeled?  They didn't just send a few of the city guard to be like &quot;Knock it off.&quot;  They sent LOTS of guys from <i>both ends</i> of the street.  They didn't want the chaneller escaping.<br /><br />Now, that said...<br /><br />The idea that it's a ter'angeral to help them hear voices is just plain looney.  That leap in logic will make most people vote your theory down, me included.<br /><br />But good idea...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 13:23:45
subject: <b>Context</b>
body:
Rand was speculating on how to break the new bond that Alanna had placed on him, making him her Warder.  Lews Therin then said the above.  Earlier, Lews Therin had been mocking Rand for weaving himself a trap of his own arrogance by going to see two Aes Sedai by himself.


created: 2002-07-12 13:56:53
subject: <b>Verin, not Vanin</b>
body:
Verin is the AS from Far Madding you are refering to, Xoe. I'll be the first to admit that you almost need some sort of chart to keep all these characters RJ has created with similar sounding names. I've gotten mixed up more than once with Mordeth and Moridin, for one example.<br /><br />I'm not sure that I agree with the assumption a lot of people have made about Verin wanting to poison Cads. I am of the belief that she just wanted to give her a little something to use compulsion on her.<br /><br />And also, Verin's &quot;70 year plan&quot; does not necessarily coincide with Rand as far as we know. In fact, in LoC she remarks how he could really interfere with her plans. Just a side note there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-13 01:11:43
subject: <b>Error</b>
body:
Why on Earth would the Aes Sedai of the just post-Breaking era assume that the Aes Sedai of the present would try to destroy the ter'angreal? There is no reason for them to assume that the world would be so paranoid against ter'angreal that dealt with saidin. They certainly werent and thus have no reason to assume that their present day counterparts would.<br /><br />THINK PEOPLE!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-13 03:37:32
subject: <b>&quot;True Power&quot;</b>
body:
We know the Far Madding sa'angreal prevents channeling of the true source plus locates the channeler but what <br />about the true power provided by the Dark One? <br />If it doesn't prevent/detect the true power, then mother's milk in a cup!  The Evil Idiot and/or his Chosen Idiots have <br />made yet another unbelievable blunder concerning the attempt to capture or kill the Dragon.  Even the Blessed <br />Dragon shouldn't escape or survive such an unbalanced encounter.  Morindin has been anointed N'aeblis and is <br />now the only Forsaken currently allowed to use the true power.  Morindin gave orders to the Darkfriend Asha'man <br />to go kill Rand and bring back all his belongings.  Thus, Morindin and probably the Dark One know Rand's location <br />and disadvantage but do nothing but send a few flunkies who won't be able to channel either.  Maybe the Shadow <br />aren't stupid, the &quot;pattern&quot; or Rands &quot;ta'veren&quot; protect the Dragon yet again.<br />However, if it does nulify/detect the true power, perhaps this can be the reason for Verin's and maybe Cadsuane's <br />further interest/activity in Far Madding. A means to counter/detect the true power would definately be of interest <br />to the forces of light, especially a Brown sister.<br /> <br />


created: 2002-07-13 13:17:42
subject: <b>To answer some of your questions...</b>
body:
Thanks for all the feedback on my little theory.<br />Now that I have it posted perhaps RJ will do me a favor and confirm it all in CoT ;  The response so far has been ...pretty much what I expected.<br />A few answers to your comments and questions<br /><br />The reason that I wrote and submited this now is because I wished to write a theory with very little proof.  I could have waited until after glimmers or after cot came out and maybe RJ would have added a few more facts to connect my everything together. But, if I wanted to write based on facts I would have written about Mat and gunpowder, or better yet submitted something to the FAQ instead. <br /><br />I would say the SASG predates the white tower.  which is why it isn't in the secret histories. <br /><br />Thanks-although you don't agree with me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  We really don't know for sure what is in Far Madding.  I am just offering my idea.  <br /><br />Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I do not assume the ter'angreal was created after taint. I know.   WHch35 &quot;al'Thor must have acquired a device, a ter'angreal, that could detect a man channeling.  From what he knew of what people now called the breaking...any women who knew how to make a ter'angreal would have been trying to create one that would do that.&quot;  Which tells me that there was no device like that before the breaking.  You couldn't make it after the other ones were made.   <br /><br />Thanks- I also know that RJ likes to &quot;connect the dots&quot;<br />for us before dropping something big.  I just like to write my theories before he does<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The two quotes you are contesting - <br />the first, deals with the men that would be filling the eye, but after they were done with that they took care of the sword  &quot;The sword must wait.&quot; indicates the eye was filled first then the sword was placed in the stone. Some of them did die filling the Eye. Just not all.<br />the second, Is referring to the prophesies which would later become the Karaethon Cycle.  I was trying to show that the AS during the breaking were not solely concearned with their own lives but were in fact working to help the DR. That helping the future Dragon was their highest priority.<br />The quote you used, She never says straight out where she learned of the voices. <br /><br />Why does Far Madding have to be hiding something?!?!<br />Oh crap i forgot a quote didn't I. WH,ch24-&quot;It warns and locates and defends. And what else?  The women who made it would have wanted more....&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-07-15 19:40:23
subject: <b>Triangulation</b>
body:
I MUST be 3 ter'angreal....<br />I know this because of the way that they find Nyneave.<br />They know EXACTLY where she has channelled with her &quot;well&quot; and the only way to do this is triangulation....<br /><br />Triangulation is using 3 points that you know how far apart they are, and finding something in beween them by measuring how far it is from each of them....<br /><br />RJ is too scientific minded to miss that fact...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Come against me, if you dare! I am the storm! <br />Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn! <br />-Rand al'Thor</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 20:09:14
subject: <b>Ever wonder why...</b>
body:
Ever wonder why... RJ chose to call it Far Madding?  I mean, many of the names don't mean anything... but I'm just curious...  think it could be a clue... hmmm???<br /><br /><br />As for the idea of what we don't know about Far Madding...  hmmmm.  All my POINTs (not many now, but you just wait) for the person who figures it out BEFORE RJ tells us...<br /><br />Time for some detective work, eh?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">****Fortune for a Quarter... I LOVE Quarters!****<br /><br />****Give me a quarter and I'll tell you your fortune****</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 01:36:34
subject: <b>Triangulation requires two measurements.</b>
body:
Triangulation only requires 2 measuring points to find the third. From 2 places, you measure the angle to the channeler, plot the lines and the person is where the lines cross. Three points may make it more accurate.<br /><br />I think what Cad's meant about the 3 ter'angreal was that there may be a detection device, a saidar blocker and a saidin blocker. Building any one of these would be complex, but building all these features into one ter'angreal is seriously extreme work. And how would you test it anyway, I would doubt you could build a bit of a ter'angreal at a time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 14:12:01
subject: <b>Ideas on it's purpose</b>
body:
One, perhaps it was a weapon, like WWII radar, in the War in the Age of Legends.<br /><br />Or, perhaps it was to make artificial stedding for displaced Ogier.<br /><br />Or, perhaps (that word is starting to sound stupid) it was meant for Aes Sedai jail, before they tried them and, if necessary, oathed them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 14:32:09
subject: <b>Triangulation</b>
body:
Actually, if you only have two points, and you draw circles around each, the circles will intersect at two points. Therefore, three separate sources are required to confirm the location. At least, thats how its done with earthquakes.<br /><br />OTOH, channeling is entirely different. Everyone knows where Rand is when he is channeling at SL. I don't think triangulation was required to find Nyn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 23:58:55
subject: <b>great theory</b>
body:
i think that the best part of this theory, is that it's a completely different thought.i also think that it has some very credible points to it. it's my thought that Far Madding will play a lot bigger role in the books to come.<br /><br />     thank you,<br /><br /><br />              tha seanchan killer<br />


created: 2002-07-24 23:30:32
subject: <b>Great Ideas</b>
body:
I have to say that I'm expecting that Far Madding IS hiding something.<br /><br />It seems to me that RJ is setting us up for something to come.<br /><br />The voices bit is a great idea, though probably too far fetched.  However there is no reason why Far Madding couldn't be hiding something else.<br /><br />As to whether its three, or whether one big ter'angreal I spose its interesting to wonder, but not really vital to the issue of whether there is more to find out about as far as the Cadsuane/FarMadding/Verin connection.<br /><br />Enjoyed this theory very much, thanks for sharing.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-30 18:31:58
subject: <b>Suppose, instead of knowledge...</b>
body:
It hides the Ring of Tamyrlin? We don't know what that is, but I'll bet my entire collection of WoT stuff it's important. A ter'angreal that can do something incredible? A sa'angreal?<br /><br />Oooohhh<br /><br />*enter crazy idea that just popped into my head*<br /><br />If whoever was the leader of the Hall of the Servants in the AoL could have been male or female, and the Ring of Tamyrlin was a symbol of office, and if it was an object of the Power, maybe it's a sa'angreal that works for men OR women. <br /><br />Of course, it could just be a ter'angreal; those can be used by either sex. Also, one would think the Ring of Tamyrlin, if it was an object of Power, would have been given to the Aiel.<br /><br />Just a thought...


created: 2003-02-23 08:53:02
subject: <b>Re: Triangulation</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Submitted by randwashere    on 7/18/2002 2:32:09 PM  <br />Actually, if you only have two points, and you draw circles around each, the circles will intersect at two points. Therefore, three separate sources are required to confirm the location. At least, thats how its done with earthquakes.</b></font><br /><br />As describe in the scene where Narishma(?) channels somewhere in the outer zone, the ter'angreal had two trinagles turned balck and pivoted to point at the source of the channeling.  Numbers were read from the markings around the two triangles...<br /><br />All triangulation requires is a bearing taken from two points and lines &quot;drawn&quot; from those two points on those bearings cross at the location of the target.<br /><br />Earthquake detection doesn't get a bearing, only a time difference -- that requires three points.  Far Madding's detecter is more like a Radio Direction Finder that gives a bearing but not distance.<br /><br /><br />(Theoretically, an AS with two warders could be precisely located by them separating and noting what direction the bond points them.  A single Warder or AS could note the direction, and move at right angles to the direction and note a new bearing to work out how far away the other end of the bond is.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-13 05:17:47
subject: <b>Voices aren't the only source of knowledge</b>
body:
It wouldn't have to be Voices that the Aes Sedais wanted to give to future males. That may not even have been possible. Maybe there's a big library that is about channeling saidin. We know that Aes Sedais of these days cannot do many things because it doesn't even occur them to try or they just think of it as impossible. So if an Asha'man could get a book that told what the Aes Sedai of Age of Legend were capable of, it would make huge difference even if the book gave just vague discription of weaving. I think that books and sources of knowledge would have needed to be destroyed or hidden. If Far Maddig playes more important role in the series in the future it is likely that there are some hugely important things hidden in there. I think angreals, Sa'angreals and Ter'angreals are also very possible option. And wasn't there somewhere mentioned angreals that could be by both genders. In clossary or somewhere similar. Those would have been very dangerous. I can imagine that the Aes Sedais of Age of Legend wouldn't want to take the risk that their weapons could be used against them.


