# w_comment

created: 2006-11-10 07:14:33
subject: <b>Interesting theory &amp; discussion</b>
body:
I think that chaos in the WoT world disequilibrates, weakens the Pattern. If the Pattern is instable and not strong enough, it's easier for the Dark One to influence it with the True Power, create his own reality and finally to break free. <br /><br />Thus Herid Fel, a philosopher &amp; student of history, wrote Rand -after their talk about the DO's prison and Tarmon Gai'don: &quot;Belief and order give strength.&quot; And therefore the Aelfinn said Rand that he has to unite all the Westlands to win TG.<br />There has to be at least a certain degree of order in the Westlands, otherwise the DO's influence becomes too strong and the Pattern too weak to win TG.<br /><br />It's possible that the DO destroyed the 1st Seal like Fanatic-Templar suggests, but considering what I pointed out above, it seems also likely that the Blight retreated because Rand gave the Pattern more order and hope again by defeating the Shadow in the end of EotW, that way weakening the DO's influence.<br />That would also mean that the Blight will soon vanish completely, after TG is won &amp; the Shadow defeated.<br /><br />The Seals obviously have to break before the DO can leave his prison. But I think now as well that the second part of Fel's message (&quot;Have to clear rubble before you can build&quot; ) means that -only after the blockage by the Seals above the Bore is completely gone- Rand can re-seal the prison, probably by unravelling the Bore like Samshaidar Mhael suggests in his theory &quot;How it all fits together...&quot;, and maybe doing something more esoteric involving his soul, blood and/or LTT in his mind.<br /><br />Anyway, very thought provoking theory. Thumb up for me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-10 10:24:52
subject: <b>You are all forgetting...</b>
body:
The DO was never all the way in the world.  He could only touch it in small ways in the AoL.  Were he able to fully touch the world, the War of Power would have been 2 seconds long.  So he may be very close to maximum influence right now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-10 13:45:01
subject: <b>On cuendillar and the nature of the Bore</b>
body:
A few more thoughts that have been kicking around inside my head which were brought out by Lord General Cauthon's comments...<br /><br />The primary principle governing the WOT universe is balance.  Man vs. woman, good vs. evil, chaos vs. order.  This is why Rand's ta'verenism brings out equal measures of good and bad events : boy survives impossible fall, mother killed by falling tile that slips in the window as she is serving dinner.<br /><br />The AOL was a time of unparalleled splendor and prosperity, so of course it had to be balanced out by a time of unspeakable horror and destruction.  The mechanism which brought about both these things was the OP.  By tapping into the OP, Aes Sedai were able to 'cheat' the pattern, so to speak, evading the natural course of events and causing far more 'good' things to happen than would have occured had the pattern been left to itself.  Unfortunately, this carried with it the seed of its own demise.  <br /><br />The Power is connected to the Pattern, because it drives the Wheel which weaves it.  Now, during the AOL, the Aes Sedai were consuming an incredibly huge amount of the OP, through their immediate channeling, through ter'angreal that required no direct channelling (which were quite common), and through the 'standing flows' of power, essentially conduits set up by AS which permanently channelled the power to made it available for various devices.  Because the AOL people were consuming so much of the OP, there was somewhat less available for driving the Wheel and weaving the Pattern than there should have been.  This caused a 'thinness' to appear, allowing gifted AS like Mierin to sense the DO and create the Bore, unleashing, quite literally, Hell on Earth.<br /><br />To my mind, all of this makes sense both according to literary logic, and according to the internal logic of the WOT universe.  Man's desire to do good and exceed his limitations was in effect a Faustian bargain which brought about his downfall.<br /><br />What does all of this have to do with cuendillar, you ask.  Well, my argument here is less well thought out, but bear with me as I think out loud.<br /><br />Cuendillar is not, per se, indestructible.  It simply cannot be destroyed by any force that humans possess, be it physical strenght or the OP.  However, there is a more powerful force that humans cannot 'wield', the Pattern.  The Pattern is, in a sense, omnipotent; it gives order to all of reality, i.e. it has power over all of reality.  It determines everything from the colour of roses to the course of human lives.  Thus, it is possible that a sudden rend in the Pattern, or even a slow desintegration, at the precise place occupied by a piece of cuendillar could cause it to crumble.<br /><br />I conceive of the Seals as surgical 'staples' placed over the Bore.  The Hundred Companions used the OP to stitch the Pattern back together over top of the Bore, employing cuendillar 'focus points', probably some kind of ter'angreal, to hold their weaves permanently in place.  Thus, they are connected to a very specific point in the Pattern, that point at which a 'thinness' was first felt and where the Bore is located.  If something, some weave of the Power akin to that used in first drilling the Bore, were to force the Pattern open at that point, then the cuendillar seal located there might conceivably shatter.<br /><br />Going back to the Eye... Moiraine makes a comment at some point that the Eye was enough power to 'repair the DO's prison, or break it open completely' (I'm paraphrasing slightly, but the idea is very close to what I just said).  Presumably this represents some snippet of wisdom about the Eye passed down through the centuries by the AS who created it.  What if the purpose of the Eye was that it be used to crack open Lews Therin's patch completely to make way for a final solution to the Bore?  I'm guessing that the AS who made it had some general idea of what they were doing, because of the Prophecies and the Foretelling (which told them where to put Callandor etc.), but they may not have had a very precise understanding of what would happen (remember the comment in Shadow Rising, when Rand is travelling backwards in time, about how they didn't seem to know *when* the Dragon would be reborn).  Perhaps they thought that they were supposed to provide the means to crack open the patch completely?  And perhaps the way they chose to do this was to create the Eye in such a way that it would immediately snap that first 'staple', making it easier for whoever was wielding it to tear open the rest of the wound.  If the Eye was a Bore-like weave designed to drill through the pattern, the rending of the pattern would have broken the cuendillar seal, even though the OP itself could not do this.  Alternatively, given the relationship I spelled out earlier between the OP and the Pattern, perhaps the use of so much OP in one spot (or passing through one spot) of the Pattern would weaken it sufficiently that the natural tension within the patch (think of how cloth under tension, when cut, pulls open naturally; I think the Pattern would be the same) would have broken it open.<br /><br />If this were the case, then RJ's comment would still be true.  The first seal was snapped by the Eye as per the plan, but Rand didn't use the rest of its power to rip open the patch, instead pursuing Baalzamon.  Probably a good thing too, because he wasn't yet ready to fight the Last Battle.  However, the functionning of the Eye, at least with respect to the first part, did force his hand.  It now allowed the DO to 'press' against the patch and weaken the other 'staples', which he probably couldn't do before that first seal was broken (it's much easier to rip open a seam when a couple of threads have already been snapped).  Alternatively, if one assumes that increasing chaos further weakens the Pattern, then a small hole in the patch, by allowing the DO to touch the World more directly again, would cause increases in chaos that would themselves put pressure on the rest of the patch.  Either way, the DR now no longer has the option of just waiting around and doing nothing, because the seals cannot hold.  If you assume that the Foretelling was the Pattern's way of setting in motion a series of events that were needed in order to reestablish balance, and that balance could only be restored by correcting the underlying Bore, all of this makes perfect sense.  The Pattern would have wanted to the patch to crack open precisely at the time when its most powerful ta'veren, a focal point of its energy and its principle of order, was around to do its bidding.


created: 2006-11-10 15:59:55
subject: <b>A few more points</b>
body:
I realize that the Aes Sedai of the present Age are not the same as from the AoL. And of course you also know that the term &quot;Amyrlin&quot; is only associated with the new-Age Aes Sedai and the White Tower.<br /><br />We could argue to no avail about whether the seals were actually in the care of the Amyrlin, or if it only meant she was supposed to know the safe-keeping locations of the seals; we really don't have enough information to know positively one way or the other.<br /><br />However, we can at least surmise that the seals, or at least some of them, were not found in their original locations. Domon bought one from a merchant in Maradon, so it was obviously moved. High Lord Turak apparently brought his with him from Seanchan, and this is the cause for some of the speculation that Ishamael played a role with the seals at some point. Either Luthair took the seal with him to Seanchan, or Ishamael took it there himself, IMHO. (Either way, there is a tenuous connection to Ishy, since he influenced Hawkwing into sending his son across the Aryth Ocean.) <br /><br />Plus there is also the seal Taim brought to Rand. With the revelations in KoD, it appears our suspicions about Taim having ties to Ishy/Moridin have been substantiated. This puts some doubt to his story of that seal's origins and another possible link to Ishy.<br /><br />As for the half-black, half-white composition of the seals being made by men and women to achieve this, once again we have nothing conclusive to base this on. In fact, several things would point to the opposite: The female Aes Sedai in the AoL did not support LTT in his plan, so it is highly doubtful women were involved in making the seals. The sad bracelets are said to be black, and according to Moghedien, they are a form of cuendillar, (Pretty much proven by Elayne attempting to destroy them), and it's also doubtful that men made them.  Plus, given that Semirhage shows up with extra copies of the sad bracelets, we should assume they were made by Seanchan damane with the talent for making a'dam, since none of the Forsaken have shown any Talent for producing objects of the One Power.<br /><br />Also, we have several instances where we are shown the Dark One's touch against the seals:<br /> <i>&quot;She was only trying to avoid the washleather purse stuffed right to the back, and she knew it, yet there was not a hair&#8217;s difference for ugliness between the purse and the thought of losing to Moghedien again. Drawing a deep breath, she gingerly reached in and took it up by the drawstrings, and knew she had been wrong. <b>Evil seemed to bathe her hand, stronger than ever, as if the Dark One really was trying to break through the cuendillar seal inside. Better to dwell all day on defeat by Moghedien; there was a world of difference between thought and reality. It had to be imagination-there had been no such feeling in Tanchico</b>-but she wished she could let Elayne carry that, too. Or leave it there.&quot;</i><br /><br />and:<br /><br /> <i>&quot;She was standing on tiptoe to peer over the side of the wagonbed at a pair of casks that seemed familiar. Unless he was mistaken, they held the two cuendillar seals, packed in wool for protection now that they were no longer unbreakable. <b>He felt the Dark One&#8217;s taint strongly here; it almost seemed to come from the casks, a faint miasma as - from something rotting in a hidden place</b>.</i><br /><br />And to Callandorific; your reply above pretty well coincides with my view. The bulk of this post was directed at previous replies by you and Lord General Cauthon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-10 21:14:44
subject: <b>Apologies... and possible truth behind the first seal is super glue?!</b>
body:
Ehhhh... first things first I must apologize to LitN, certain areas of what I said are either condescending or foggy, hehe. I hava a bad habit of doing that sometimes. Basically what I'm saying isn't truly in agreement with anyone here, just in disagreement that the Amyrlin and AS in general probably would  have known of the location if they had known in the first place. O/C I'll admit someone could have moved the seal to the Eye at a later date I suppose. Though I kind of agree that the first seal was odd somehow. Also I thought I'd read that color of cuendillar connection in one of the books somewhere. I recently rechecked and saw that I had not. My apologies on that. Either way it is entirely possible that the seals are fusions of two different forms of cuendillar, thus causing the initial break. Perhaps they were super-glued together and the saidin destroyed it? Be funny as hell if thats how that seal broke and its still holding the seal in place when other six break. It would be very anti-climatic. Page 423, aMoL The Breaking &quot;Rand watched in horror as the final seal over the bore broke. He looked to the skies awaiting the black flames he had seen in Rhuidean, and more recently in Lews Therin's own memories. However, nothing happened.&quot; I'm gonna wait to see that at some point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-11 03:45:22
subject: <b>No worries....</b>
body:
No offense was taken. Actually, a little research and discussion is always good. As many times as I have reread the story, I had convinced myself that it said the seals had been stolen, and that was not what Siuan said. I think it was a simple matter of taking what she said about no Amyrlin knowing where the seals were since the Trolloc Wars, and the &quot;Watcher over the Seals&quot; title, leads one to believe the seals were in the White Tower's possession at one time.<br /><br />I ran through a timeline at Seven Spokes Chronology and saw the WT has had several incidences of break-ins and fires that destroyed archives and parts of the library. It almost seems as if certain information was intentionally destroyed, if you like conspiracy theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-12 15:37:46
subject: <b>Sorry for taking so long to reply.</b>
body:
To <b>Light in the Night</b>: <i>Now, as to the rest, I would like some clarification. You state that the Dark One can't touch the world until the first seal is broken, but you also say that he withdrew his power/touch from the world to focus on breaking that first seal. This seems to be a contradiction to me, so maybe you can elaborate.</i><br /><br />I said that he could not touch teh world, except as defined by the waxing and waning of the Seal, coinciding with Ishamael's freedom.<br /><br />To <b>Glorfindel76</b>:<br /><br />That seems dubious, since the Dragon Reborn was already twenty years old at the time that Seal broke. I doubt he had a great array of boys born at Dragonmount from maidens wedded to no men and of the ancient blood raised by the old blood to choose from <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />To those who said that the loss of the Eye broke the seal:<br /><br />Most often, this theory is absed on the fact that throwing the One Power at <i>cuendillar</i> makes it stronger, and so the Eye kept the seal intact. But if that were so, wouldn't it have been the last to break?<br /><br />To those who speak of Shai'tan's power being directly related to the amount of order in the world:<br /><br />That does not make much sense to me. If anything, SHai'tan makes his moves when the world is most ordered. The War of the Power came about in the Age of Legends. The Trolloc Wars destroyed the Compact of Ten Nations. The Seanchan were born of Artur Hawkwing's Empire. So no, I don't believe that.<br /><br />To <b>Callandorific</b>:<br /><br />I could buy that. There is an unfortunater lack of solid evidence in this matter, so all we are left is logical solutions. My theory is sensible, it is by no means absolute. I still like mine better than yours though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-12 16:36:17
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
Fanatic-Templar wrote:<br /><br />&quot;To Glorfindel76<br />That seems dubious, since the Dragon Reborn was already twenty years old at the time that Seal broke. I doubt he had a great array of boys born at Dragonmount from maidens wedded to no men and of the ancient blood raised by the old blood to choose from&quot;<br /><br />But who is to say the seal broke during the battle at the Eye?! If I'm not mistaken they discover the seal broken when the Eye is emptied? So the seal could very well have been broken already, could it not?! But more to the point of my ideais that the Dragon is reborn as an answer to the DO actions, not the DO taking action because of the Dragons rebirth...<br />


created: 2006-11-13 10:39:49
subject: <b>To Fanatic-Templar</b>
body:
<b> That does not make much sense to me. If anything, SHai'tan makes his moves when the world is most ordered. The War of the Power came about in the Age of Legends. The Trolloc Wars destroyed the Compact of Ten Nations. The Seanchan were born of Artur Hawkwing's Empire. So no, I don't believe that. </b><br /><br />That's not correct. The War of the Power started after the DO created much chaos for some time, as the Guide states:<br /><br />&quot;The Bore changed all of that [the harmonic AoL]. Like a small finger hole in a prison wall, the Bore was not large enough to allow the Dark One's escape, but it was large enough to allow him to touch the world. His touch subtly altered everything that came within its influence. All the baser motivations and emotional problems of mankind were enhanced and manipulated, enlarging envy, greed, and anger despite lack of any true motivating factors. All those dissatisfied with their lot in life felt that dissatisfaction intensify. Thievery, assault, murder, and even wars began to appear with increasing frequency [...] This period of <i> increasingly dark chaos </i> lasted approximately one hundred years to one hundred and ten years after the drilling of the Bore, and was referred to as &quot;the Collapse&quot; by several very early sources. It certainly qualified for the name, as civilization did very nearly collapse, and <i> the order and peace of the world of the Age of Legends certainly did </i>. Eventually those loyal to the Dark One felt themselves strong enough to act. In a swift strike they made an attempt to free the Dark One completely and take control. This event was the actual beginning of the War of the Shadow, which pitted the followers and minions of the Dark against those who fought to resist, and which soon involved the whole world. During the resulting ten-year struggle, all the forgotten facets of war were rediscovered, in many cases twisted by the Dark.&quot;<br /><br />These passages clearly show that the &quot;let the Lord of Chaos-rule&quot; isn't a new tactic (Fel figured this out as well). The DO needs chaos and has an growing influence on the world then, because the Pattern's weaving is weakened by chaos. <br /><br />The defense of this weakening of the Pattern against the Shadow's chaotic influence are ta'veren and the heroes to stabilize order again. <br /><br />Also RJ said on this matter:<br />&quot;You become ta'veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try <i> to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight </i>, a man or woman becomes ta'veren because the Wheel has &quot;decided&quot; to use them as an influence on the Pattern.&quot;


created: 2006-11-13 19:40:55
subject: <b>to Etzel</b>
body:
But if that were the case, in the context of this theory, then ordered periods would preclude the actions and capabilities of the DO. I believe Fanatic-Templar's concept is seen best by the fact that Ishamael influenced Artur Hawkwing, going as far as to create the Seanchan exploration. As we have pieced together in this theory and on the blackboard, Ishamael's abilities to enter and influence the world were the results of the waxing and waning of the pattern, and their affects on the DO's strength to move actions in the world. If chaos and order in the world, not the cycles of the pattern, affected the DO's powers, then Ishamael, his TP came from the DO, would not have been able to talk in Hawkwing's ear, at one of the most ordered periods in time from the AoL to when the books take place.<br /><br />I agree that the 'let the LoC' concept isn't new, but it doesn't necessarily apply here. <br /><br />My personal take on the seal breaking is that Baalzamon told Rand that the Eye would never serve him. He put that idea in Rand's head. Rand, a very strong ta'veren, went to the Eye at the wrong time. His ability to affect the pattern may have weakened the protections there since it was the wrong time. The pattern became unraveled at that point, making it possible for the DO to break the saidin seal. I don't know about the staple analogies, but what if the right circumstances were set up, and the saidin seal was at its weakest?


created: 2007-03-11 19:25:33
subject: <b>More replies</b>
body:
To <b>Glorfindel</b><br /><br />Well, that is possible, but an entirely different theory. The purpose of this one is to explain the recession of the Blight, and the return of Spring at the end of <i>The Eye of the World</i>. If this theory is correct, then it means that the Seal broke during the confrontation.<br /><br />If this theory is incorrect, then you may well be right, though we still do not know what caused the Blight to recede, and the seasons to revert.<br /><br />To <b>Etzel</b><br /><br />I second <b>I bore a hole</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-10 17:28:04
subject: <b>Don't know how much I agree with this theory</b>
body:
Some of your ideas are really, really good.  I just don't know if I agree that the Dark One would have the power availible to him to simply pool all of his power into one place to shatter an unweakened seal as you suggest he did in EotW.  If he had this kind of power, I doubt he would hesitate to do it again.<br />Of course, it may be possible he did this, and spent considerable power and influence in this world doing it, sacrificing unimaginable power he could have used doing other things, and hasn't built the power back up...<br />but then again, it seems like if he had the power to affect the weather as he did, or manifest his avatar (as I believe Shaidar Haran is), I think he'd be able to concentrate his power again to smash the other seals, rather than weakening them and hardly seeming to try getting ahold of them.<br />I think the problem of the seals may be more complex than we think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-10 19:06:40
subject: <b>By the way...</b>
body:
I'm totally stoked that someone has been reading my theories and referenced me. Thanks, Etzel!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-12 08:32:45
subject: <b>Makes sense to me</b>
body:
I agree that we can rule out Beonin, Nicola and the Shadow as possible betrayers of the plan. Then the Ajah Heads make indeed the most sense, especially since we saw that Sisters from all Ajah's were involved in the plan.<br /><br />Good theory! I think you solved it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-12 09:51:30
subject: <b>Good one...</b>
body:
I think you've got it right. One point though... we may not be able to rule out Beonin. She said she didn't betray Egwene, but betraying the plan wouldn't have been betraying Egwene since her presence in the Harbour was a result of a  last minute decision on her part. Thus, Beonin could have betrayed the plan without betraying Egwene herself.<br />The only thing that doesen't fit in with this is that Elaida never mentions this nor gives Beonin credit for this.


created: 2006-11-12 11:23:59
subject: <b>Impressive</b>
body:
This has to be one of the most impressive theories I've seen in a year or more. Succinct, well laid out and well researched.<br /><br />I agree with most of the theory except for the assertion that the Tower sitters are still backing Elaida for Amyrlin. They may have done it initially, and then only during the palace coup. Since then Elaida has rubbed so many people up the wrong way that the sitters would be highly likely to back Egwene just to get rid of Elaida. And make the same mistake the Salidar Hall made with her.<br /><br />Kudos to you and keep theorizing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-12 12:23:03
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
I've been rolling something along these lines around in my head for a while, but you have it fleshed out much better than I did.  I was thinking along the lines of practicality, that is, it would be much harder to set aside a fairly large group of powerful sisters with age and standing on their side than it would be to get rid of an Amyrlin.  Unless of course the new Sitters can be expected to defer to their Ajah head and step down at an appropritate time.  I also agree with you about Egwene's betrayal.  All in all, great submission. I've been waiting for one on this subject and you did not disapoint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-12 16:08:18
subject: <b>Very well presented and fun to read</b>
body:
I voted yes because of the 2 points you were proving.<br /><br />As a matter of fact, DomA has been propounding this on the MB for a very long time, which I agree with.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-12 17:11:21
subject: <b>Great work!</b>
body:
Very well tought out! You are really a regular Siuan! Just quicker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-12 19:46:34
subject:
<b>Well thought out! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
The more I read the more it made sense! I think you have hit the nail on the head. Great Theory well mapped out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-13 06:14:53
subject: <b>Fantastic - well written and plausible</b>
body:
I wonder though on what your thoughts are on the implication of this plot line.<br />i.e. we 'know' Egwene will become Amrylin - will this Ajah head be important in her solidifying the support of the tower?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have never endorsed any viewpoint at any time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />This one included <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-13 08:41:25
subject: <b>Great work!</b>
body:
I agree completely. I especially like the symmetry of both camps sending ferrets to the other camp. One question though: Can you flesh out why the ferrets had to be Sitters? Why couldn't the Heads just send any member of their Ajah?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-13 09:06:27
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
It's good to see the TP finally get a good version of this theory up - I had hoped that DomA would write it and I even thought of doing it myself.<br /><br />Anyway, I agree with most of the lines of evidence, but I disagree with the overall conclusion that the 'ferret sisters' (good name BTW) goal is the failure of the rebellion. I believe that their goal is the reunification of the WT - not necessarily favoring either faction. In fact, for reunification to work, I think both Egwene and Elaida will have to go (am I the only one that thinks Egwene has to die in the final book?). <br /><br />The main reason that the 'ferret sisters' (FS) appear to favor Elaida so heavily is that they have been continually out manuevered by Egwene, Siuan, Romanda, and Delana. Egwene's cuendillar plan would put too much power in the hands of the rebellion, so they betrayed the plan - remember, Egwene wasn't supposed to be there. <br /><br />Overall a very well-done theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-11-13 13:04:26
subject: <b>Great Theory!</b>
body:
I really like how you make sense of the parallel strange trends in both camps. I do, however, believe that the reason there were young sitters in the Rebellion was the same reason there are young sitters in the Tower: they were more easily disposed. In the event of any reunification, and it wouldn't matter which side eventually triumphed, the two Halls would be easily reunited thanks to the maneuvering of the Ajah heads and the FS. With the current situation, I don't know if they are still getting orders from the Tower Ajah heads, but who knows? <br /><br />As mentioned, I think they had no intention of betraying Egwene, only the cuendillar plan. On the other hand, are we sure that the Black Ajah was not involved? Katerine was there to capture Egwene, and I always have associated her strongly with BA plans. <br /><br />LoialT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-13 14:32:45
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
This makes sense.<br /><br />Oh, there is one thing I now wonder after reading your theory.  There is the assumption, by Messana, that Galina would be privy to the &quot;plot&quot; by the Ajah Heads, had she not got herself taken out of play, but is that the case? I would think, given the nature of the Ajah Heads' plot, that the Heads of the Blue and the Red are not involved.  If that is the case, then Galina would have no idea as to the nature of the plot.<br /><br />One other thing, Takima's actions (or rather non-action) seems even more peculiar during the vote on war against Elaida.  Egwene's POV indicates that she thinks that Takima knows what will happen if the Sitters vote for war (that Egwene will be given complete executive power over all matters involving the war), and yet she doesn't speak up.  I always thought it peculiar that she wouldn't speak up if she knew this, yet your theory makes it even more peculiar.


created: 2006-11-13 16:06:32
subject: <b>Dadof4 makes a good point</b>
body:
I think this theory is pretty much right on the money, but Takima's silence does seem a little unusual. There could be a couple of explanations though. <br /><br />1.) Takima knows that if Egwene's plan fails, either Lelaine or Romanda will be able to extend their power even further than they already have.  It seems to me that this would make any reconcilation that much harder since neither can be pushed aside as easily as Egwene might be.  Little does she know...<br /><br />2.) There may be a timeline involved if the Ajah heads suspect Tarmon Gaidin is near.  A declaration of war could speed up the process of getting to Tar Valon (maybe she suspects Egwene's Travelling plan because of the way she dealt with the Andorans and Murandians) and perhaps hasten an end to the conflict.  In her mind, even a few casualties may not outweigh the need for a quick reunification.  Cooler heads might well prevail when the rebels actually see Tar Valon again and contact is made with the sisters in the Tower.  Hence, her support and involvement in the negotiations.  <br /><br />So, good point, but I think those are some plausible explanations for Takima's behavior.  Maybe the author of this theory has some others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-14 00:34:40
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
Great theory and I agree. Very good observation about Takima.<br /><br />My only question is: why are the young sitters such a problem. I would think one of the benefits (from the Ajah Head/Ferret POV) would be that the too-young Sitters (in Salidar AND in the Tower) would defer to the judgment of their more senior sitters, especially when they were instrumental in getting them their chairs. Yet the too-young sitters often vote opposite the ferrets, sometimes to a woman. Am I missing something?<br />


created: 2006-11-14 00:36:28
subject: <b>Thanks!</b>
body:
Thanks for all the great comments.  <br />I was a little lazy with my language in the theory.  I think the Tower Ajah Heads&#8217; (and the Ferret Sitters&#8217; ) #1 goal was keeping the Tower whole.  I think in the beginning, the Ferret Sitters&#8217; were working towards destabilizing the rebellion (meaning having the sisters quietly return to the Tower), simply because I don&#8217;t think they could have conceived of the Tower bending to the rebels.  I think now, with Elaida&#8217;s bungling and Egwene&#8217;s self-posession, the Tower Ajah Heads and the Ferret Sitters (respectively)  are considering alternatives.  The only reason I think so is because Adelorna (Green Ajah Head) and Serancha (Gray Ajah Head) gave Egwene lessons and Doesine (a Yellow Sitter) Healed her.  It seems as though they might be determining Egwene&#8217;s worth.  To oneandone:  I wonder what else the Ferret Sitters have told their Ajah Heads.  Perhaps they told them what a strong Amyrlin Egwene is, and that&#8217;s why the Ajah Heads are checking her out?<br /><br />I also agree that the Ferret Sitters didn&#8217;t intentionally betray Egwene.  They were just betraying the plan.<br /><br />To dadof4:  I agree, I suspect neither the Red nor the Blue Ajah Heads know anything about the plan.  I think Takima is an interesting question.  I think she had maybe three reasons to keep quiet.  1- It would have been inappropriate for her to say anything.  When Janya and Moria speak, Egwene thinks how they&#8217;re not supposed to say anything.  2- I don&#8217;t think Takima thought the measure would pass.  She seemed floored when it did.  And 3- perhaps she thought that if it did pass, Egwene wouldn&#8217;t be willing to actually go to war.  Egwene had called for a 2 or 3 day rest that day, and maybe Takima thought that if Egwene were in charge, she would call for more delays.  I know, I&#8217;m grasping here.<br /><br />To ornthoron:  I think the Ajah Heads would want to send women of influence to the rebels to convince them to eventually come back to the Tower.  They could have sent regular sisters (and maybe they have) but a sister&#8217;s standing is always considered when making a decision.  Sending Sitters makes the convincing easier.<br /><br />To fionwe1987: (were you born in 1987?  I feel so old)  I really do think we can eliminate Beonin.  I don&#8217;t think Beonin could have said,  &#8220;Me I betrayed nothing&#8221; if she had betrayed the plan.  She says she kept her oath until Egwene was captured.   And Elaida&#8217;s quote about the &#8220;unwelcome information&#8221; implies that Elaida learned about the plan from the Ajahs, not from Beonin.  And I agree,  Elaida not mentioning it and telling Beonin she is a failure is suggestive of Beonin not betraying the plan.<br /><br />To LoialT: I can&#8217;t definitively exclude the Shadow, I just don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s likely.  And as someone else posted, it makes sense that the Ajah Heads found out about the plan, told Elaida, and thus Egwene&#8217;s capture was a collaboration between sisters of different Ajahs. Also, given Elaida&#8217;s quote about the unwelcome news, to me it sounds like Elaida found out about the plan and a number of other things at the same time.  Maybe Mesaana had several Black sisters in different Ajahs tell Elaida about the plan and a bunch of other stuff, but as I said, it just doesn&#8217;t seem likely.<br /><br />Since most people seem to agree with me, how about I throw this into the discussion: I suspect Janya is Black Ajah.  Everyone else is sending ferrets.  Elaida sent Beonin, the rebels sent their 10 ferrets, the Ajah Heads sent their Sitters.  I think the Black Ajah would want to send someone who stands high among Aes Sedai.  And Janya was the first to stand for declaring war with Elaida.  The only problem with this is that Janya wasn&#8217;t informed of the vote to depose Siuan, but perhaps Mesaana had planned on sending Janya away, or perhaps Mesaana knew she wouldn&#8217;t need Janya&#8217;s vote.<br />


created: 2006-11-14 07:56:55
subject: <b>On Janya...</b>
body:
One explaination for the lack of Janya's presence in the vote to depose Siuan (assuming she is BA), is that Alviarin needed to have Elaida very weak. Thus she managed to get the Seat with the barest majority, which gave Alviarin greater leverage.<br />There also exists the fact that Mesaana seems to have expected the split. If Danelle's ordering mercenaries as masons for the libraries was Mesaana's plan, then I think we can say conclusively that Mesaana planned for a rift between the AS. Then, her reasons for keeping Janya out of the vote are explained. She already planned to have an agent among the Rebels, who would sow further dissention. Notice that in tFoH, Janya and Anaiya were moving around together. Given that Anaiya was one of the leaders of the Rebellion, it makes sense that Janya would move with her.


created: 2006-11-14 12:32:46
subject: <b>Now I agree.</b>
body:
Once you modified your statement that the purpose of the Ferret Sitters was to ensure the tower reunites, I can whole heartedly agree with you.  My thought is that the Ferret Sitters were not sent to make sure the rebellion failed, but to make sure that it did not fizzle out TOO fast.  One of your first quotes was:<br /><br />&#8220;The sisters, they were looking at one another with so much suspicion, I think me, most might have returned to the Tower soon at that point, but then other Sitters beside the Blues appeared.&#8221;<br /><br />So without the other Sitters, the rebellion might have just collapsed into a Blue Ajah separation.  That would have excluded one of the Ajahs and solidified Elaida&#8217;s power, resulting in a weaker tower.  The rebellion had to be wide enough to both REQUIRE a reunification and to weaken Elaida&#8217;s position.<br />


created: 2006-11-15 06:38:13
subject: <b>Don't think Janya is BA</b>
body:
I think that Delana is/was indeed the only black Sitter in the Hall of the Little Tower and the highest-ranking Black among the Rebels. That's the reason why Aran'gar contacted and used her. <br /><br />Otherwise, we had certainy heard in Delana's or Aran'gar's PoV that there is another high-ranking BA among the Rebels, specifically in the Hall, or at least got a more concrete hint.


created: 2006-11-16 19:10:49
subject: <b>Ajah heads will rebel</b>
body:
This just popped into my head as i was reading the comment about Egwene receiving lessons from the ajah heads. When Egwene mentions that in the past sisters have risen up to depose incompetent Amyrlins she receives a 'thoughtful look' or some such thing from one of her instructors. Was this instuctor an ajah head who could take this on board and possibly arrange such an uprising? Do ajah heads have acces to the secret histories? I dont have my books with me right now so I cant check but if they dont they might not have been aware that such an event had ever occured and were unwilling to set a precident.<br /><br />


created: 2006-11-20 05:51:09
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
One of the best theories posted in months and months. A pleasure to read. Great work. I voted &quot;Yes&quot;.<br /><br />


created: 2006-11-21 06:31:26
subject: <b>To sparrow</b>
body:
The Brown that Egwene was talking to wasn't their Ajar head, but it's a good point to ask if the Ajar heads actually know about the secret histories ? IMO some may know and some may not, but I don't think it's one of the things they'd talked about between themselves. So the Ajah heads leading a rebellion against Elaida and the Sitters (Elaida for the mess she's caused and Sitters for not taking control) could definetely cause a 7th rebellion. RJ gave us hints that this might happen, and it's one way for Egwene to become Amyrlin without 'blood shed&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-23 14:14:42
subject: <b>Most Impressive</b>
body:
Nuff said!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-23 17:25:44
subject: <b>It stands to reason the Ajah heads know the secret histories</b>
body:
Since at one point, they were likely a Sitter, and we know the Sitter's had access to them.I do think there is a good chance that the Ajah heads might end up supporting Egwene.  <br /><br />Now maybe I missed it, but do we have conclusive evidence that Egwene was, in fact, betrayed?  The reason I ask is that there is always the option that Aes Sedai were just on guard duty watching the gates.  After all, with Sister's rebelling, they need someone who can counter them if they try to get in via the One Power.  (Not necessarily as a weapon.)<br /><br />I do think this line of thought is pretty solid and I am inclined to agree with it.  Everything connects pretty seamlessly.  Even the idea that Tamika thought Egwene in control was better than Romanda and Lelaine.


created: 2006-12-01 03:53:39
subject: <b>Very nicely done</b>
body:
And I'll throw in my agreement with the rest, too. This has to be one of the best breakdowns of this plot that I've read, btw. Kudos to you.<br /><br />I, myself was going to suggest that Janya is BA and Mesaana's own &quot;ferret&quot;. There are some interesting things that might point to her, at least, some of which you already pointed out:<br /><br />1~ Her and Delana order Nynaeve to come to them under the auspicies of copying notes for them, but in actuality end up interrogating her about Rand soon after Nynaeve arrives in Salidar. It would make sense that both Aran'gar and Mesaana would like to know as much as possible about the DR.<br /><br />2~ Janya stands on the first vote to elect Egwene as Amyrlin, as well as the second vote.<br /><br />3~ Janya is the first to stand on the War vote.<br /><br />4~ She is one of the first to stand on the vote to ally with the Black Tower.<br /><br />As we can see, her voting record appears to reflect what we would expect Mesaana desires. Plus, it just makes sense that Mesaana would want to be fully informed of what's going on with the rebels and maintain some amount of influence. Having her own Sitter among them would be the only way to achieve this. <br /><br />I would doubt that Delana and Janya know about each others' true loyalties, too. But it would be just like RJ to have both of them sit side-by-side and grill Nynaeve, while completely oblivious that they are working for opposing Forsaken. (A hint for us perhaps, touched with irony.)<br /><br />Good job, and thumbs up from me!<br /><br />and to wismail....<br /><br />Yes, we do know for a fact that the plan was betrayed. One of Egwene's captors that night said; &quot;Well, well. We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.&quot; CoT, chapter 30.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-08 20:08:40
subject: <b>Well Done...the best Theory I've seen for ages</b>
body:
I think you must be absolutely right.   I love how your theory even takes into account how the issue of who sits in the hall post reunification will work out.<br /><br />Very nicely reasoned indeed!


created: 2006-12-11 02:52:18
subject: <b>Thumbs up!</b>
body:
I think it's safe to say this isn't a &quot;theory&quot; anymore. You made it perfectly clear that this is what RJ meant for us to find out.<br /><br />I must say; I missed most of it myself, so both yourself and RJ gain some more respect from me.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2006-12-16 03:12:38
subject: <b>One question</b>
body:
Since the first time the subject of too-young Sitters was raised, I went back and watched every occurence of the young Sitters' names, which led to watching the names of the late-arriving sitters at Salidar. One issue troubled me slightly away from accepting the same conclusion you theorize.<br /><br />Why didn't the &quot;ferret Sitters&quot; Travel to the WT and teach Travelling to the Tower Sitters, or the Ajah heads? They could have overwhelmed the rebel sisters and reunited the Tower.<br /><br />While it is true that someone from the rebels is meeting with the Tower Sitters (outside of the negotiations), this issue alone puzzles me. What possible reason could have prevented the ferret Sitters from Traveling to the WT? Noone is allowed to observe another sister in the travelling tent (for privacy's sake), so the chance of discovery would be minimal.<br /><br />Aside from this question, and I can't even decide whether it really matters that much, your conclusions are what would have to be assumed given the known facts and the circumstantials (such as the same five names referred to in so many cases as sharing the same opinion).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-14 15:48:36
subject: <b>Delana as only Black Ajah in Rebel Camp?</b>
body:
The theory that &quot;Halima&quot; attatched herself to Delana because she was BA and the highest ranking in the Rebel camp seems good, at first glance.  However, Halima's info all came from Cabriana-via Semi-so perhaps that's how Delana's name came up as well?<br /><br />Incidentally-Cabriana's wrung dry body-it's the one &quot;Cyndane&quot; possses now-anyone else notice that?


created: 2007-08-17 09:58:58
subject: <b>You won me over!</b>
body:
I had been conviced it was Beonin with some sort of Mesaana tie in.  However, I never thought of the &quot;too young sitters&quot; and was not able to connect the 5 Ferret sitters either.<br /><br />Genious!  The only question now is what role will Mesaana play in Egewene's rise to power.  Is it likely she'll turn her plans to her once it is evident Elaida is losing?<br />


created: 2009-05-24 16:45:16
subject: <b>Hmmm.....</b>
body:
....nicely prepared and presented.  Thoroughly enjoyable read.  I'm not sure the BA can be so easily dismissed and lean toward that conclusion for the majority of the too-young-sitters.  Different orders from competing forsaken have certainly been given to individual BA members outside their pre-existing hierarchy.  By the time of the rebellion, other forsaken than Mesaana were ordering BA members and blatantly operated without passing orders through Alviarin as titular &quot;head&quot; of the BA.<br /><br />If the Ajah heads have influenced the choices in both<br />Halls and have ferrets with the rebels that doesn't necessarily exclude BA influence.


created: 2006-11-19 01:25:23
subject: <b>deja vu...</b>
body:
I could've sworn I've seen this before. <br /><br />To add (and perhaps take some of the moral weight off of Rand's shoulders), I think it very possible that switching bodies was Moridin's intent. He talks about being the one to kill Rand at his own time and choosing. He was also the one who joined the balefire at SL (I doubt Rand would use BF so casually as to meld the beams), and I think it possible that with his cyclical knowledge of the Fisher King and Rand, Moridin had an inkling of avatars and different bodies.<br /><br />If this is the case, Rand isn't responsible. He's merely a victim who will get rather lucky, and perhaps find some reward after all of his sacrifice, retiring in the anonimity of a new body.<br /><br />P.S. Slayer rescued Lanfear


created: 2006-11-19 06:04:45
subject: <b>Not a new thought</b>
body:
And it's indeed obvious that something will happen in the plot regarding Rand's link to Moridin. <br /><br />I believe as well that Rand will somehow use this link to kill Moridin before TG, like Min's viewing suggests. Only after that, Rand could convincingly fake his death and surprise the Shadow (also by using the dull dagger). Just the other two ta'veren and the women bound to Rand could be certain that he is actually still alive then (though some others like Alivia and Logain might know as well). <br /><br />Perhaps Rand will learn that the man in his mind is the transmigrated Ishy from Semirhage. Otherwise maybe Moiraine and/or Elayne might give Rand important clues about Moridin's identity. <br /><br />In my opinion it's more doubtful, though, that Rand will take over Moridin's body, because Egwene Dreamed about Rand -in his current body- entering SG. <br />But of course, if you are right, it would explain why Min thinks Aviendha's babies are strange, if they look like Moridin (black hair), and not like Aiel (red hair).<br /><br />We have to RAFO..


created: 2006-11-19 19:15:20
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
This is exactly along the lines of what I thought, except I was too lazy to write a theory about it.  It's not really a new thought though, since I think I originally got that idea from some of the other theories mixed with the FAQ information.  Good thought though!


created: 2006-11-19 22:50:47
subject: <b>Didn't vote either way</b>
body:
Hard to argue since we just don't have much to go on.  &quot;Oddness&quot; could mean any number of things, so I'm hesitant to form an opinion one way or another.  I will however admit that all of the information (viewings, dreams, etc.) you put together is reasonably compelling in favor of your take on things.  So, half thumbs up and half neutral. I thought I'd seen this before, but it may have been within the comments section of another theory.  In any case, it wasn't as complete as what you put forth. <br /><br />P.S. i bore a hole: I'm kind of surprised that you think Moridin orchestrated the whole situation.  I haven't read that scene in a while, but it seemed to me that the BF streams touching was pure happenstance.  Moridin doesn't seem to be all that happy about the arrangement and I'm not sure he completely understands it.  In KOD Moridin reinstates the prohibition against killing Rand which he let lapse during WH right before Rand was about to use the Choedan Kal.  If changing bodies is his goal, I find it hard to believe that he would be so cavalier about Rand being killed during WH, especially since he was pretty vehement about the renewed prohibition.  I think he might have a plan now, but I don't think &quot;bonding&quot; Rand was his intention during Rand's battle w/Sammael.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-19 22:51:45
subject: <b>Man!... I am tired of this switching body nonsense!</b>
body:
What the load of ...! Min tells us clearly &quot;Rand's babies&quot;, so deal with it. And Min's viewing about second man and Egwene's dreaming is clearly about Rand and LTT. How many proofs since about that do we need to be actually conviced?! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-20 08:42:32
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
To all who said this is not new, I agree.  I posted it on the main board soon after KoD came out. As far as I can tell, I was the first to post it.  I apologize if this is not the case.  I waited some time to see if anyone else would claim it as theory.  When no one did, I figure I'd write it up since people seem to keep asking about the 'oddness'.  I am not sure how strongly I believe it, I am presenting it as a theory for fun and discussion, not fact.<br /><br />To Etzel<br />I am not sure how much I believe that Rand will actually take over Moridin's body.  While that is the defining part of this theory, I would not feel strongly enough about it to write it up as a theory on its own.  We have lots of clues pointing either way.  The thing is, I do not think Rand will survive post TG in his current body.  So either he will switch, or Nynaeve will heal his current body of its major ills.  Definately a RAFO. <br />     I am not sure how anyone besides LTT or a Forsaken will help Rand figure out that the third guy in his head is Ishy reborn.<br /><br />To Skeeve<br />While I may not feel real stongly about this, I think it is as credible as anything else we have seen.  There is lots of foreshadowing, but RJ has muddied the waters somewhat.  You are correct, the obvious connection is with LTT.  The problem is that RJ does not always do the obvious thing, plus Rand and Moridin are clearly seeing things from each other's POV's.  The thought that Rand has that if they 'moved a hair either way, they would be touching' implies that they would almost be taking up the same space.  I think this could cause a possible mental battle.  I also think there is some justice in Moridin and LTT being trapped in Rand's very damaged body, constantly warring for control, up until they are both killed.  <br /><br />Given the Aiel culture and their feelings of family, I could see that Avi would definately see the children as Rand's, even if genetically they are Moridin's.  Min's viewings sometimes seem to take the perspective of the person in mind, so again, I think this is at least possible.<br /><br />Also, let's say you are correct, the battle will be with LTT for Rand's body.  What of the connection with Moridin?  Is it just going to go away?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-20 10:20:09
subject: <b>2 bme</b>
body:
&quot;The problem is that RJ does not always do the obvious thing&quot; -- I would love to see proof of that. As far as I remember, all the &quot;mysteries&quot; in WoT actually have a simle and obvious explanation.<br /><br />&quot;Rand and Moridin are clearly seeing things from each other's POV's&quot; -- there is a huge leap between seeing each other PoV's and switching bodies.<br /><br />&quot; I think this could cause a possible mental battle&quot; - exactly! I think that's the only thing RJ had in mind when creating this plot. Imagine Rand and Moridin battle each other in aMoL. And imagine that each can peep other's PoV in that battle! That's more interesting twist than lame switching bodies stuff.<br /><br />&quot;Min's viewings sometimes seem to take the perspective of the person in mind&quot; -- again, I would like to see the proof of that. As far as I remeber it's the opposite.<br /><br />&quot;What of the connection with Moridin? Is it just going to go away?&quot; -- see above. Plus, Rand has connections to Mat and Perrin. Plus he has four women's feelings in his head. That's a lot to handle! And I bet it'll come in handy during the Last Battle.<br />


created: 2006-11-20 13:41:34
subject: <b>Okay Skeeve, I'll give it a try</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>The problem is that RJ does not always do the obvious thing&quot; -- I would love to see proof of that. As far as I remember, all the &quot;mysteries&quot; in WoT actually have a simle and obvious explanation. </b></font><br /><br />Remind me again, who killed Asmodean? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  The obvious thing was that Ba'alzamon was the DO, instead it seems to have been Ishy. Rand tells Barthanes in TGH that he is neither Aiel nor of the royal house of Andor.  At that time, a very obvious statement, but also wrong. Also, resurrecting the Forsaken came as a surprise to me. I agree that there is plenty of forshadowing, but some events that happened are easily explained after the facts, but how many predicted them ahead of time?  <br /><br />There are many predictions/viewings/dreams not yet fufilled. Who will be the remnant of the remnant of the Aiel?  Is it a specific group, or just that very few will sruvive and still be Aiel?  When, how will Mat give up his eye?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>&quot;Rand and Moridin are clearly seeing things from each other's POV's&quot; -- there is a huge leap between seeing each other PoV's and switching bodies. </b></font> I agree, but it is the whole business about being 'so close, a hair either way and they would be touching' (paraphrased).  The visions with Mat and Perrin have not gotten to that point.  The one between Rand and Moridin is not accompanied by the wirling colors. There seems to be a very different connection here.  Somehow, the touched balefire streams have connected their threads in the pattern.  Why not a change of bodies if it is the soul that matters?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>&quot; I think this could cause a possible mental battle&quot; - exactly! I think that's the only thing RJ had in mind when creating this plot. Imagine Rand and Moridin battle each other in aMoL. And imagine that each can peep other's PoV in that battle! That's more interesting twist than lame switching bodies stuff.  </b></font> Keep in mind, that I tend to agree, but I still wonder, what will happen with Rand's very broken body?  You have not addressed that.  Also, why not an intense mental battle that is followed by them ending up in each other's bodies, or the winner having the chance to force a change?<br /><br />As for Min's veiwings, they are open to interpretation by Min. She has one about Thom where she sees a man, not him, juggling fire.  Juggling fire seems to be a metaphor for channeling, and the man is Owen. She does not understand it though since the thought of male channellers is not something that comes to mind quickly for her.  She sees Avi having Rand's babies, but she also knows by then how the Aiel feel about extended families.  She sees the vision through this filter.  If she has seen it when she first met Avi, maybe it would have been different.  Also, at that time, she and Avi have a funny bond to each other through Rand. <br /><br />In her vision that I referenced, she says that &quot;I saw you and another man. I couldn&#8217;t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another,...&quot;  She syas they touched.  Now, Rand cannot physically touch LTT.  If you must have an exact interpretation of Min's viewings, how do you explain that? After touching, they merge into one another.  Combined with Rand talking about 'moving a hair either way, and we would be touching' (paraphrased), well I can see how RJ might have set this up. Again, I am not stating this as fact, but I do not think you can just wave it away as <font size="-1"><b>lame</b></font> or other, more insulting terms that you used.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-20 14:49:11
subject:
<b>Would the savior of human kind do something as evil as taking somebody&#8217;s soul so he could live?</b>

body:
First I was going to agree with Skeeve&#8217;s.  I do tend to go with the KISS theory.  The simplest is usually the best answer.<br /><br />I do not know if Rand will be able to &#8220;upgrade&#8221; to a less damaged body.  I have not made up my mind if I even like the idea.  But I am sure that the Creator or the DO are the only entities that would have the ability to transmigrate a soul into a different body.  I would tend to think that only (1) soul could be present in a body at any given time.  With the only exception of LTT &amp; Rand (which the Creator made possible).<br /><br />We know the DO has &#8220;resurrected&#8221; some of the Chosen&#8217;s souls and placed them into new bodies.  We also know that the graymen or &#8220;soulless&#8221; probably are created in a similar way that the Chosen were brought back.  But it is not a good thing morally and would be categorized as evil.  Would the savior of human kind do something as evil as taking somebody&#8217;s soul so he could live?<br /><br />I would think the &#8220;oddness&#8221; of the children can be explained in a number of different ways.<br />(1)  The combined of talents and abilities of (2) powerful channelers who each have multiple BONDS.<br />(2)  The effect of the father having (2) un-healable wounds.<br />(3)  The tavern ability changing/bringing the patterns focus when the children are conceived. <br />(4)  They are not &#8220;identical&#8221; quadruplets but 4 different eggs fertilized by 4 different sperm.<br />(5) They are albinos.<br /><br />We can go on for days.  The point is this; Rand is going to have to get with Avi soon just so he can knock her up.  This is going to be one of the lose ends that do not get answered.  Avi will end up giving birth way after the last battle has been fought.  <br /><br />Or I just thought of something&#8230;..Each baby will be the &#8220;Reborn&#8221; soul of a main character that gets killed, since everybody likes the idea that somebody is always reborn from somebody in the past.  Say Lanfear, LTT, Beidomon, &amp; the female Aes Sedia who didn&#8217;t want to work with LTT.<br />


created: 2006-11-20 14:50:30
subject: <b>Bme, here's what I think</b>
body:
&quot;Remind me again, who killed Asmodean?&quot; -- Touche <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But still, many so-called mysteries do have simple and obvious explanation: like Forsaken resurrection, for example. We've been told from the day 1 that they were promised immortality. Then there have to be a way to resurrect them when they were killed. Right? That's what I call obvious. The other example you've provided (like Rand telling some stuff he knows nothing about) is no mystery at all. Mat's own fate is also not a mystery: his &quot;die and live again&quot; was very straight forward, &quot;daugter of the nine moons&quot; as well (espesially since we learn that Emperess has title with nine moons or something like that).<br /><br />&quot; I agree, but it is the whole business about being 'so close, a hair either way and they would be touching' (paraphrased).&quot; -- well, I still think it was just a figure of speech that represents how clear Rand sees other person's POV. Such technic is used throught the books in bunches.<br /><br />&quot;what will happen with Rand's very broken body?&quot; -- what's wrong with his body? It's injured, so what? I think no switching will occur, otherwise being Min, Elayne and Aviendha sucks. Put yourself in their shoes: they love the Rand's body very much and made so many comments about it and now he has a new body? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> That's got to hurt... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Besides, I think switching would be a blowout for Rand - his fragile support of Aiel will be gone. In his new body, Rand would not resemble an Aiel and he would not have dragon marks. So why to follow him from the Aeil point of view?<br /><br />&quot; She has one about Thom where she sees a man, not him, juggling fire. Juggling fire seems to be a metaphor for channeling, and the man is Owen. &quot; -- and how is that from Thom prespective? Thom would have known his nephew and One Power and using your logic Min would have seen &quot;nephew&quot; image. I still think that what Min sees and understands is her prespective, not the person she sees about. For example, when she see Brigitte, she saw an ugly man somehow connected to her, not the love of her eternal life (as Birgitte would have seen).<br /><br /><br />


created: 2006-11-20 15:59:03
subject: <b>good points both Skeeve and SAMPSON</b>
body:
To Sampson,<br />I normally go with KISS myself, it is a very good point. I agree that it would be an act of evil.  I even mentioned that in the theory.  Your point about Rand being the savior is a good one. However, he is quick to deliver what he calls justice, hanging people, for breaking the law.  Rand is clearly williing to sacrifice friends (as long as they are not women) to obtain the goals he thinks are right.  What if he is wrong?  RJ has given us some gray in his characters.  Yes, this would be very gray and morally wrong, but I think that would be the most interesting part of it all.<br /><br />Hard to argue about only the DO and Creator so far seem to be able to migrate souls.  I guess we shall see.<br /><br />It is an interesting thought that since Rand and Avi are channellers, and have a Bond to each other, that might result in something odd.  However, the same can be said for Elayne, and Min did not comment on any oddness in her babies.<br /><br />I still think it is a RAFO, and while I like my theory and think it is plausible to some extent, I am not sure how likely it is.<br /><br />Skeeve<br /><br />It is funny that you mention Mat.  Some people interpret that he dies when hung by the 'finns, others that he died from Ravin and was resurrected by Rand's balefire.  Seems open to multiple interpretations to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I am not sure where I fall on that argument myself.  Many other viewings et al are very straight forward, but I still think there is some wiggle room in this one case. Especially since it is clear Rand thinks it is LTT.  Say what you want about things being clear, when the characters think they know something about themselves (I am neither Aiel, nor ...) they are often wrong.  To be clear, if you asked me which I believe, I would lean towards Min's viewing meaning LTT, but I do not think it is cut and dry yet.  We will RAFO, and hopefully get a good laugh at how wrong this particular theory is!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your points about swtiching are all good.  If it happens, it would have to be late and in such a way that Rand would live in anonymity.  Possiblly just before, or even after defeating the DO.  He would no longer lead the Aiel, or anyone else.  The women would prove their love for him, not his body. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> However, his hand is missing and his face is probably pretty beat up also considering his vision problems indicate that his eyes took some damage as well.  It seems that it will only get worse as he continues down his path of being the Fisher King.<br /><br />Anyway, we can agree to disagree. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> This has been fun for me.    It is all RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-20 19:01:26
subject: <b>On making babies...</b>
body:
I agree with this theory, and thought that it was well accepted. I guess I'm wrong. I think that there are a couple of points to add here.<br /><br />As for nobody transmigrating souls, what about Fain? He's got the soul of Mordeth inside. And, Moridin used the TP for his BF that combined with Rand's, and the TP comes directly from he DO. Then we've got Luc and Isam. And we don't know how that quite happened. Back to the obvious stuff, I definitely thought Taim was Demandred, but that got overturned, so we can't go by anything being obvious or KISS- at least we can't with RJ.<br /><br />Finally, on the note of the morality issue, I believe that it was Moridin's intention to do the body switch. I wrote a woeful theory about it earlier if you want to see the evidence.


created: 2006-11-21 08:17:48
subject: <b>just a little comment</b>
body:
Skeeve, you mention that the Aiel would not follow Rand if he had Moridin's body. Why would they need to? This is the last book, they don't need to follow him once they're committed to the Last Battle. It'll be perfect for Rand to disappear from the world and give him peace from being Lord Of Randland.<br /><br />If Rand has knocked up Aviendha, then the last battle happens, the body switch happens and the last battle is done for, Rand and the girls can leave the world and live in anonimity. As for the it being tough for the girls to be in love with someone whose body is then changed, that may not affect them as much as you many think. We don't know if the bond they all share is linked to bodies or souls. If Rand and Moridin swap bodies, the link may still be there as it's stuck to the souls.<br /><br />If the swap does happen after knocking up Aviendha, Rand will have a functioning body, a new life and the some of the prophecies mentioned above could be fulfilled. It is a very neat way of tying up loose ends. Plus, Rand's babies would still be his genetically and spiritually, if not phenotypically. <br /><br />Sorry to rant. I think i'm leaning 55% towards this theory and 45% against.


created: 2006-11-21 12:09:56
subject: <b>2 harrymonk</b>
body:
&quot;they don't need to follow him once they're committed to the Last Battle&quot; -- this is exactly the problem. Aiel don't <b>care</b> about the Last Battle. They care about Rand. And they are doing it only because of their Prophecy regarding him, which do not include the Last Battle at all. If there is no Rand (or someone &quot;pretending&quot; to be Rand) - there is no Aiel at the Last Battle, I think


created: 2006-11-21 12:12:51
subject: <b>I hate that I can't edit the posts</b>
body:
The last sentense came wrong. I meant to say <br /><i>if there is no Rand, even if somebody &quot;pretends&quot; to be Rand (like switched body)</i>


created: 2006-11-22 09:36:35
subject: <b>deja vu</b>
body:
I could've sworn I've seen this before. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Anyways, I've always liked this theory, even though it has been said many times before. I don't know why.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-22 16:19:10
subject: <b>Skeeve</b>
body:
When I said committed to the last battle, I actually meant &quot;committed&quot;, as in fighting with the forces of light against the shadow. I should imagine the last battle will take a while to be fought and the switching of the bodies (if it happens) will be at the end of the battle, if not the cause of the end. So if Rand does swap bodies, or dies or turns and runs screaming from the field of battle like a little girl, the Aiel would continue to fight to the death. The Aiel seem to have a subtle sense of honour and wouldn't back out of a fight easily.<br /><br />I realise that's a lot of &quot;ifs&quot; and &quot;buts&quot; and here comes another, but, using the excuse of Aiel abandoning Rand if he swaps bodies is not necessarily a given.


created: 2006-11-23 12:43:44
subject: <b>I hate not being able to edit posts too...</b>
body:
If Rand does swap bodies, then surely it'd still be his soul so does that mean that the Wise Ones would know through their dream walking or peeking into his dreams? Some of the more powerful people recognise people by their souls, e.g Lanfear knowing that Rand is Lews Therin.<br />


created: 2006-11-23 17:16:31
subject: <b>To Skeeve</b>
body:
You say that the Aiel doesn't care about the Last Battle? What's all that about &quot;...to spit in sightblinders eye on the last day&quot; then?


created: 2006-11-23 21:38:15
subject: <b>Sampson</b>
body:
I thought it has been established that Rand and LTT aren't two different souls, but different personalities of the same soul. Somehow their soul has fractured and those two personalities seem to dominate.  I don't think it was necessary for the Creator to make it possible for the two personalities to cohabit the same body.


created: 2006-11-27 15:11:27
subject: <b>KISS</b>
body:
One possibility why Avi's babies will be odd is that they won't be her biological babies but their real mothers are Min and Elayne and she will become their only mother by surviving Min and Elayne.


created: 2006-11-28 11:22:47
subject: <b>Occam's Razor</b>
body:
PTH, you're so close!<br />  We've seen how Avi and Elayne become sisters, they were &quot;born&quot; together.  The likeliest scenario is that Rand has another 2 children with either Avi or Min, and the two Elayne is carrying now.  Aiel customs are such that being siblings by the father is a less strong family tie than being siblings by the mother, so they all decide to become first-sisters/brother and Avienda acts as the birth mother during the ceremony, ELayne and Min would speak for each of the two sets of children.  <br /><br />  This is the only theory I've seen that doesn't rely on speculation about unknown factors.  Everything needed for it to happen this way has been established already so no last second plot devices would be needed to make it happen.  Although that makes it much less 'exotic'.<br /><br />   Even if Rand's conciousness were to be transplanted into Moridin, its extremely unlike to borderline impossible to naturally produce four eggs simultaneously.  Most times that happens with generous doses of fertility drugs.


created: 2006-11-30 19:03:43
subject: <b>You Could Be Right</b>
body:
I think this theory makes sense. I have previously suggested something along Tenshin's lines (see previous comment), but was totally flamed for it.<br /><br />I still think it's a possibility, but I think this theory is quite believable as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-01 10:03:38
subject: <b>If you can stomach the idea of body-switching...</b>
body:
...then sure.  I haven't decided yet, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-01 17:18:39
subject: <b>Body Switching</b>
body:
I sort of thought body switching was widely accepted. It seems to me the only way to overcome the problems with Rand and Moridin's strange link and Rand's physical limitations nowadays.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-18 06:17:25
subject: <b>Disagree.</b>
body:
I haven't read all of the books yet but I think that in this:<br /> &quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.&quot;<br /><br />And he who is dead yet lives means Mat, not Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-18 13:49:15
subject: <b>Bergioyn</b>
body:
With that quote, it mentions the the spear, lion and who sees beyond. Clearly Avi, Elayne and Min. The next part is three on the boat. I took this to mean the aforementioned three ladies. If this is the case, why would Mat be on a boat with them?<br />You could argue that the dead yet who lives part is Mat, but I think that would be incorrect. Mat died by Rahvin's lightning, but then Rahvin got Balefired, undoing Mat's death, so arguably Mat did not die as the balefire means it didn't happen (anyone else dizzy?). He who is dead, yet still lives implies to me that that person's death is faked or everyone thinks he's dead.<br />I always took it as given that the person who is dead yet still lives is clearly Rand. Who else would be with his women?<br /><br />Hmmm, could have explained that in one or two lines. I do love a good rant...


created: 2006-12-19 13:25:10
subject: <b>&quot;To die yet to live&quot;</b>
body:
I'll bet this means that either Lews Therin or Rand (Prob. Rand) die, and the other takes over<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Foil fencers dance the Spears<br /><br />En Allein Mandarb<br /><i>&quot;Do whatever floats your boat, because if you don't, then your boat doesn't float, and it sinks and you die&quot;</i><br />Robert Jordan ain inde niende dyu moridin<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-19 15:07:45
subject: <b>Aviendha's babies</b>
body:
I think the oddness about her babies is that they're not actually hers. Or not all of them. I think two of them are Elaynes. The Aiel have often passed on babies to other women to raise, and they have &quot;traditions&quot; (not the word i'm looking for) where the kids can be adopted... like the ritual thing that Elayne and Aviendha went through when they became sisters. <br /><br />I'm not going to say this is what i really think, but it's a possibility... Aviendha can't have babies, and she's so distraught that she goes through this ceremony thing so that she can &quot;have&quot; Elayne's babies so that she can actually have Rand's babies... the other two are probally Min and Rand's babies. Although i think it would be terrible if she couldn't conceive.


created: 2006-11-25 13:42:51
subject: <b>Makes perfect sense to me</b>
body:
I agree completely. Nice job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-25 14:59:34
subject: <b>Good Thinking...</b>
body:
Unfortunately however, I have to disagree about Verin being able to persuade the Borderlanders. If you recall she can use that improvised, limited version of compulsion and while not really all that effective by itself the Borderlander's natural aversion to the Shadow coupled with Verin's compulsion would be more than enough to win Rand thier support. As for the sisters with noticing any tampering the sistes following Rand haven't discovered what Verin did to some of them.


created: 2006-11-25 17:21:05
subject: <b>WT or not</b>
body:
But Verins &quot;Compulsion&quot; wasn't excactly done in a flash or on a large group of people. She actually had to work alone with a single subject for a considerable amount of time!Not likely to be a probable scenario if she meets the borderlanders...<br /><br />No, Verin is out searching for Mat and Tuon! Wether she will stop by the WT first, I'm not so sure of... How eassy would it be for her to sneak in to the Tower and get out again with the Horn? Not impossible of course, but difficult I would think.. It would be the smart thing to do, certainly, but a shure thing, no. For sake of the argument I'll say she won't visit the WT first, but sure of it I'm absolutely not! It'll be good fun to find out though<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-25 17:55:33
subject: <b>Moiraine and others.</b>
body:
Let's not forget about Mat and Tom going to rescue Moiraine. Moiraine already knows about the horn,(as do Egwene and Elayne) and Mat may not be around when and if Verin arrives. Likely she is after the horn. Also who's side is she on? Many more questions than answers.<br />


created: 2006-11-25 18:26:07
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
It doesn't make sense that Verin would suddenly take off to the &quot;Broken Tower&quot; and fetch the Horn of Valere, let alone go chase after Mat whom we know is going to go after Moraine. Remember that the Seanchan's Prophecies differ from the Westland's Prophecies and it's the Seanchan's Prophecies that have passages concerning Mat and Perrin, which we have no proof Verin had ever heard before.  <br /><br />Moreover, you ignored the context of Rand's remarks about binding the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The whole passage was in reference to what transpired between Rand and the Aelfinn in the doorframe ter'angreal in Tear.  Rand asked, &quot;How can I win the Last Battle (and survive)?&quot; and the Aelfinn replied, &quot;'The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one.  The two must be as one.'&quot;<br /><br />Decoding this phrase not what the Prophecies say about Rand binding the Nine Moons to him is what Verin is considering before she leaves with Tomas.  <br /><br />We all know Verin loves to dabble with coded messages and hidden meanings and, because she's obsessed with fighting Tarmon Gaidon it would seem she's more concerned about finding the meaning behind the Aelfinn's answer to Rand's question than finding Mat and Tuon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-25 19:46:51
subject: <b>I think you right</b>
body:
The course of action you laid out seems logical to me. Although I think that the Horn will be presented at the last moment of the Battle by Aes Sedai delegation (kinda one of the peak points in the plotline). But Verin fetching it before that (I presume she would Travel there) also seems very possible, considering her earlier interest in the Horn in the first place.


created: 2006-11-26 02:20:51
subject: <b>(none)</b>
body:
a good point to consider is that no one can summon the dead heroes anymore except for mat. So even if the seanchan do get ahold of the horn, there still is potential for the horn to end up going to him, through tuon.<br /><br />because of this, a small side-trip to the tower would be unnecesary plot-wise, because it's also widely believed (here, on the internet) that the seanchanwill indeed fight with rand, so the horn and the hornblower will both be there for tarmon gai'don.<br /><br />but asides from that, I completely agree. Well done theory.


created: 2006-11-26 05:08:42
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
To Lord Scimitar,<br /><br />Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To deadblack,<br /><br /><b> Unfortunately however, I have to disagree about Verin being able to persuade the Borderlanders. If you recall she can use that improvised, limited version of compulsion and while not really all that effective by itself the Borderlander's natural aversion to the Shadow coupled with Verin's compulsion would be more than enough to win Rand thier support. As for the sisters with noticing any tampering the sistes following Rand haven't discovered what Verin did to some of them. </b><br /><br />I think to believe that Verin will Compel all Borderlander rulers to follow Rand is a big stretch. Like Glorfindel76 said, Verin could use Compulsion on the AS, because she had much time and was alone with them. That won't happen with the Borderlander rulers, especially since there are 13 of Elaida's AS around.<br /><br /><br />To Glorfindel76,<br /><br /><b> No, Verin is out searching for Mat and Tuon! Wether she will stop by the WT first, I'm not so sure of... How eassy would it be for her to sneak in to the Tower and get out again with the Horn? Not impossible of course, but difficult I would think.. It would be the smart thing to do, certainly, but a shure thing, no. For sake of the argument I'll say she won't visit the WT first, but sure of it I'm absolutely not! It'll be good fun to find out though </b><br /><br />As said, Verin can Travel. That means she could also directly Travel to the place where the Horn is hidden. it was suggested in the past that the Horn might even be in Verin's room. If she Traveled there directly, no one would notice her. And even if someone would see her, Verin isn't a known Rebel.<br /><br />To 327s10,<br /><br /><b> Let's not forget about Mat and Tom going to rescue Moiraine. Moiraine already knows about the horn,(as do Egwene and Elayne) and Mat may not be around when and if Verin arrives. Likely she is after the horn. Also who's side is she on? Many more questions than answers. </b><br /><br />Yeah, I believe that Verin will meet Mat in Caemlyn, after he rescued Moiraine. Probably Verin will learn of the Band of the Red Hand in Andor.<br /><br /><br />To son_of_battles,<br /><br /><b> It doesn't make sense that Verin would suddenly take off to the &quot;Broken Tower&quot; and fetch the Horn of Valere, let alone go chase after Mat whom we know is going to go after Moraine. Remember that the Seanchan's Prophecies differ from the Westland's Prophecies and it's the Seanchan's Prophecies that have passages concerning Mat and Perrin, which we have no proof Verin had ever heard before.  </b><br /><br />Verin mentioned the choice between axe and hammer regarding Perrin. In KoD we learned that this is a part of the Prophecies. Noal also mentioned the fox, the ravens and the moons when he quotes the Prophecies in CoT. <br />These and other clues suggest on the one hand, that Verin knows a lot about the Prophecies, and on the other hand, that Perrin and Mat are generally mentioned in the Prophecies. <br /><br /><b> Moreover, you ignored the context of Rand's remarks about binding the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The whole passage was in reference to what transpired between Rand and the Aelfinn in the doorframe ter'angreal in Tear. Rand asked, &quot;How can I win the Last Battle (and survive)?&quot; and the Aelfinn replied, &quot;'The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one.'&quot;<br /><br />Decoding this phrase not what the Prophecies say about Rand binding the Nine Moons to him is what Verin is considering before she leaves with Tomas.<br /><br />We all know Verin loves to dabble with coded messages and hidden meanings and, because she's obsessed with fighting Tarmon Gaidon it would seem she's more concerned about finding the meaning behind the Aelfinn's answer to Rand's question than finding Mat and Tuon. </b><br /><br />That's what I think and said as well. The Seanchan basically have the south-west of the Westlands. That means to unite all the Westlands, Rand has to bind the Seanchan to him as well. <br /><br />It's said during the Logain's report in KoD, that Verin is especially attentive after Rand mentions the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The reason is that Verin realized in this moment Mat's link to the Seanchan. Thus she left Rand to fetch the Horn (as an explanation to join Mat) and search Mat, figuring that this might help Rand in his dealings with the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br />To Skeeve The Great,<br /><br />Thanks. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To ffunyman,<br /><br /><b> a good point to consider is that no one can summon the dead heroes anymore except for mat. So even if the seanchan do get ahold of the horn, there still is potential for the horn to end up going to him, through tuon.<br /><br />because of this, a small side-trip to the tower would be unnecesary plot-wise, because it's also widely believed (here, on the internet) that the seanchanwill indeed fight with rand, so the horn and the hornblower will both be there for tarmon gai'don. </b><br /><br />Therefore I believe that Verin especially wants to fetch the Horn to have a believeable explanation why she suddenly went to Mat.


created: 2006-11-26 13:58:42
subject: <b>Does Verin know...</b>
body:
or suspect that Tuon can channel?<br /><br />If she does then the best way to bind the DotNM is using the Oath Rod from the Tower.  I think that using the phrase 'binding' may have loosened some old information in Verin's mind and led her to leave and retrieve the Rod.<br /><br />Or it could be that binding the Crystal Throne is the last of the prophecies and she's decided to get the Horn for the start of the last battle.


created: 2006-11-26 14:13:39
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
If Verin did travel to White Tower to get the Horn...where do you think she will find it? Last I remember, she brought it to Suian, and I'm pretty sure that Suian kept it in the Amyrlin Study before she was deposed...obviously she must have disguised it(used illusions on it) to make it look like a fake Horn. My question is what happened to it? It had to be disguised b/c any Aes Sedai would definitly know what it was as soon as they read the Old Tongue, and we would have read about something like this cause it would have cause a big stir w/ the Aes Sedai...so again...where is the Horn now? Only Verin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Suain and Moiraine know that Mat blew it, and only those ladies know it was brought to the tower...only Verin and Suain know that Suain got it, and only Suain knows where it was before she got deposed...it seems to me that everone but Mat has forgotten that the Horn was blew. I think that the Daughter of the 9 moons has already been bound to Rand...Tuons marraige to Mat seems pretty binding, and Rand has to kneel to the Crystal Throne(which is just a way to refer to the Empress of Seanchan which is what Tuon is)...so I think Rand just bowing to her(by showing courtesy) could easily full fill this...not everything in the Prophecies has to be so grand. And just another thought...maybe Verin is the third to go w/ Mat and Thom...Moiraine's letter never makes reference to the third person's gender...


created: 2006-11-26 17:14:45
subject: <b>Good thinking</b>
body:
This is in line with what I've been thinking for a while, but I never really associated her abrupt departure with anything in KOD.  On that subject, your take seems very plausible.  One thing I might add.  Since we now know that Mat and Co. will be going to the Tower of Ghenji and we know where they are right now (north-central Altara), it seems like they would have to Travel in order to make it there anytime soon since the Tower of Ghenji is located north of the Two Rivers (Perrin's took a trip there while chasing Slayer). They would need an Aes Sedai who could Travel and Verin fulfills that need.  The timeline of the recent books seems to short to allow for a more traditional journey.  She might also have some arcane knowledge that will help them understand Moiraine's cryptic comments about the Finns and the their relation to Snakes and Foxes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-26 20:11:20
subject: <b>The location of the Horn....</b>
body:
From Fain's pov in the prologue to tFoH: <br /><br /><i>&quot;The <b>Tower held things worth a little patience in its strongrooms. The Horn of Valere was there</b>, the<br />fabled Horn made to call dead heroes back from the grave for the Last Battle. Even most of the Aes Sedai were<br />ignorant of that, but he knew how to sniff out things. The dagger was there. He felt its pull where he stood.&quot;</i><br /><br />As for the theory, I'll agree Verin is most likely going after the Horn and then to Mat. Might be wise of her to grab a few angreal and sa'angreal while she's there, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-26 21:31:16
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I've long thought that Verin is off to find Mat and that she would pick the HoV up along the way. You've done a good job of piecing things together and showing when she made her decision - it really is clear when outlined like this.<br /><br />I now firmly believe that Verin will show up in Mat's story line at a key moment early in AMOL.<br /><br />Another point of interest is that Verin really hasn't attached herself to Mat in the same way she did with Perrin and Rand at earlier times. She clearly knows more than she's letting on and I think that the connection to the Seanchan filled an important gap in that knowledge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-11-26 23:21:35
subject: <b>Finding Matrim...</b>
body:
I really like this theory.  Going to the Borderlanders seems like the only alternate theory -- and just seems totally out of character for her.<br /><br />Something to consider is that she may have quite a bit of trouble finding him.  Rand was convinced he would be with Elayne in Caemlyn, and when he realized he wasn't, instantly assumed that he would be leading the Band to support Egwene.<br /><br />My guess is that Verin will end up in Caemlyn first, where she'll hear that the Band was down in Murandy.  From that, using travelling, finding the Band shouldn't be hard, and the Band will likely find Mat as soon as he comes out of Altara.<br /><br />An enormous added bonus of this will be that Mat will finally have someone with him who can weave gateways.


created: 2006-11-27 05:03:41
subject: <b>More replies</b>
body:
To MatCauthonReborn,<br /><br />I don't think Verin can know that Tuon will be able to channel. After all, it seemed Verin didn't even know what exactly the link between the fox, the ravens and the moons in the Prophecies mean, before Rand gave her the final clue.<br /><br /><br />To Wesley_Sedai,<br /><br /><b> If Verin did travel to White Tower to get the Horn...where do you think she will find it? Last I remember, she brought it to Suian, and I'm pretty sure that Suian kept it in the Amyrlin Study before she was deposed...obviously she must have disguised it(used illusions on it) to make it look like a fake Horn. My question is what happened to it? It had to be disguised b/c any Aes Sedai would definitly know what it was as soon as they read the Old Tongue, and we would have read about something like this cause it would have cause a big stir w/ the Aes Sedai...so again...where is the Horn now? Only Verin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Suain and Moiraine know that Mat blew it, and only those ladies know it was brought to the tower...only Verin and Suain know that Suain got it, and only Suain knows where it was before she got deposed...it seems to me that everone but Mat has forgotten that the Horn was blew. I think that the Daughter of the 9 moons has already been bound to Rand...Tuons marraige to Mat seems pretty binding, and Rand has to kneel to the Crystal Throne(which is just a way to refer to the Empress of Seanchan which is what Tuon is)...so I think Rand just bowing to her(by showing courtesy) could easily full fill this...not everything in the Prophecies has to be so grand. And just another thought...maybe Verin is the third to go w/ Mat and Thom...Moiraine's letter never makes reference to the third person's gender... </b><br /><br />The last time we see the Horn is in TDR, ch.12, when Siuan and Verin chat. Siuan tells Verin regarding the Horn: &#8220;We will find some place to hide this where no one but we two know. I will consider what to do after that.&#8221;<br /><br />I didn't remember this, but Light in the Night mentioned that Fain believes that the Horn is in the WT strongroom. That makes one wonder, if Elaida found the Horn or Siuan told her about it, and Elaida put it there (she never indicates that in her PoV). <br /><br />In any event, I think even if Verin doesn't know it yet, I believe she will also sniff out where the Horn is, if Fain managed it. Of course she also doesn't know about Mat's marriage yet.<br /><br />Finally, Moiraine says in her letter in KoD that Thom, Mat &quot;and a man I do not know&quot; will try to rescue her. So, it can't be Verin or another woman or a boy like Olver. The best bet seems to be Noal, the old hero.<br /><br /><br />To LogainReborn,<br /><br />It's possible that Verin will help Mat in their rescue in an indirect way, like Travel them there. <br />I rather believe, though, that Mat and Co. will anyway first go to Caemlyn and there are enough women who are able to Travel. Then Verin will meet Mat after the rescue in Caemlyn.<br /><br /><br />To Light in the Night,<br /><br />Yeah, good point about the Horn's location. <br />As said, I wonder, if Elaida found the Horn or if Siuan told her about it, and Elaida put it there then (of course something she never indicates in her PoV, as far as I know).<br /><br /><br />To kcf,<br /><br />Thanks, and I agree that Verin has to spend some time with Mat as well, after she did this with Perrin and Rand.<br /><br /><br />To clintACK,<br /> <br />I also believe that Verin will hear of the Band of the Red Hand and thus find Mat. I think, though, that they will rather meet in Caemlyn, especially considering Min's viewing of a severed Hand, she had of Elayne. But we will see.


created: 2006-11-27 18:17:21
subject: <b>Agree, but some questions</b>
body:
To Etzel...<br />You think that Verin will be able to sniff out the horn since Fain was able to do it, but I'm not sure that it will be so easy. I think that the fact that Fain says 'sniff' is significant (thanks LitN for that quote). I see his powers as being a little uncanny. What if he has the ability to 'sniff' out certain objects like Hurin from tGH was able to sniff evil? He has the ability to sense Rand and the ta'verens easily enough, and he used illusion even though he can't channel. I always felt that the scene LitN quoted showed that Fain could find objects with certain properties, such as the Horn, which is tied  to TG and to Mat. RJ mentions that the horn isn't where Siuan would have left it. Nor does your explanation of Verin being a non-rebel hold. Should Verin, looking in the wrong place at first, be found inside the Tower, people would make some commotion. How could she have got in? Is she a spy, or what allegiance is she willing to hold? What are the other third of  the Tower (those neither in the TAS or SAS catagories) planning?<br /><br />For these reasons, I believe that Verin would probably be going to find Mat first, then will find  the Horn. I see the Horn as being needed at the time of TG. However, as far as Verin knows, Mat has yet to find Tuon. There is no way for her to know that that part of Seanchan prophecy has been fulfilled. As you say, she has yet to join up with Mat (nice catch on that). This would indicate to me that she would want to find him first. Yes, TG is coming, but doesn't she like to research and be thorough? Nothing in her letter tells Rand to gear up for TG. Instead, she seems to be telling Rand that she is leaving him in Cadsuane's care for the time being. According to the missive, Rand still has time to accept Cadsuane's advice. I believe that she'll go to Mat, help out with the Traveling to get Moiraine, and then bring in Mat to help end the war at the WT with the Seanchan, picking up the Horn at that stop.<br /><br />But I agree that she'll go to Mat, and that the borderlanders can go on doing nothing until TG falls around them.


created: 2006-11-27 19:57:26
subject: <b>Verin on the scales.... she's heavy</b>
body:
Perhaps Verin is one of the Aes Sedai from Egwene's prohpetic dream, &quot;Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot; <br />Seams like whatever Verin has in mind for Mat is going to affect the whole world if it is in the best interests of Rand. <br />


created: 2006-11-27 23:03:16
subject: <b>Regarding the Seanchan Karaethon Cycle</b>
body:
To Etzel: Wonderful theory, you have completely convinced me.<br /><br />To anyone who quoted Seanchan Prophecy: I don't belive anything regarding the Dragon can be trusted if it comes from the Seanchan. Remember the original prophecies in Seanchan were the ones in the Westlands, they were changed when Artur Hawkwings armies arrived and Luthair proclaimed them to be false. It is also thought that Luthair being sent across the ocean was a plot of Ishamael when he was spat out of Shayol Ghul for his 40 year period and he beacme the advisor of Artur. So we have a man who is probably under the influence of Ishy changing the prophecies. Sound suspicious?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Daishar<br />AKA<br />Aric Cosamaru<br />Proud Asha'man of the Grey Tower role play site</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-28 13:24:52
subject: <b>Great theory, I agree completely.</b>
body:
No wonder Verin is my favourite character. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To i bore a hole:<br /><b><br />Nor does your explanation of Verin being a non-rebel hold. Should Verin, looking in the wrong place at first, be found inside the Tower, people would make some commotion. How could she have got in? Is she a spy, or what allegiance is she willing to hold? What are the other third of the Tower (those neither in the TAS or SAS catagories) planning?<br /></b><br /><br />We see from Alviarin's PoV that it is easy to Travel unnoticed into the cellars of The White Tower, and if that is where the Horn is stored Verin will have no need to go sneaking in the corridors. She can probably Travel in, pick up the Horn and get out in very short time, assuming she knows where it is.<br /><br />Remember that the Tower is quite empty at the moment, and the few Aes Sedai there generally sticks to their Ajah's quarters due to the cold climate and distrust between Ajahs. Thus it is unlikely that someone else than Verin would be sneaking around the dungeons, and even if i.e. Alviarin or the BA hunters would go down there once in a while it is highly unlikely that they would bumb into Verin during the short time-window she has to be there. The Tower Dungeons are big.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-28 20:17:51
subject: <b>to Ornthoron</b>
body:
My comment just prior to the quote you've given states my reservations as to the ease in which Verin can retrieve the Horn. If the Horn has been moved (as per LitN's quote), then we must assume that Verin doesn't know about the move. She would then be found searching in the wrong places, finding that the Horn isn't where she and Suian placed it. My earlier statements show that I believe Fain was in a unique position when he was able to sniff out the Horn. I do not believe that Verin will be able to mimic such a feat.<br /><br />Also, we learn from Fain's entrance into the WT in order to retrieve the dagger that there are a number of wards on the items in the WT storeroom. I don't believe that Elaida would leave that particular item unguarded. If Verin could find  the Horn, she would set off multiple alarms, such as the ones that alerted Alviarin to Fain's presence. So no, I don't believe that Verin will be able to waltz into the WT until after Elaida gets the boot (I do want her to live long enough to see Asha'man in her newly-raised palace). But I do believe that Verin is headed Mat's way.


created: 2006-11-29 00:21:23
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I don't think Verin would have such a hard time stealing the Horn(if she knows it's location)...You forget the weaves of masking one's ability and appearance, this would allow her to wander the Tower freely as another Aes Sedai or a Servant. And if the horn does have a ward on it, who's to say that Verin could not pick that weave apart(she might have picked that up from the Aiel Wise Ones)...And then it's an easy gateway to Caemlyn, not to many sisters posses the talent to be able to read residues and thus learn the location of Verin's destination...but even so she could just as easily invert her weave of a gateway...and then no one would have any idea.


created: 2006-11-29 03:42:06
subject: <b>Once again, replies</b>
body:
To i bore a hole,<br /><br />Fain can't sense the Horn. He got this special ability to sense the ta'veren from the DO, and Mordeth can of course feel the dagger. <br /><br />From Fain's thoughts it's clear that he learned something about the Horn from AS. And if one reads the scene it was actually quite easy for Fain to get into the strongerooms. Like Ornthoron and Wesley_Sedai pointed out, an AS like Verin should have even less problems to learn where the Horn is and get it.<br /><br />However -it's unlikely also in my view- but maybe Fain isn't even right (he didn't see the Horn there). He might have just figured that the Horn will be in the strongrooms, because AS told him that this is the place where the most valuable items like the Horn would be kept.<br /><br />Besides that, considering all the AS spies, it also makes sense to get informations in TV or the WT about Mat's current location, than simply searching for him at random places in the Westlands.<br /><br /><br />To sparrow,<br /><br /><b> Perhaps Verin is one of the Aes Sedai from Egwene's prohpetic dream, &quot;Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot; <br />Seams like whatever Verin has in mind for Mat is going to affect the whole world if it is in the best interests of Rand. </b><br /><br />That's an interesting thought. Maybe a decision between what Verin wants and Moiraine's rescue? Of course Mat has to choose the latter.<br /><br /><br />To Aes Daishar,<br /><br />Thanks, and I agree that the Seanchan Prophecies are likely corrupted. <br /><br /><br />To Ornthoron,<br /><br />Also thanks for your kind words! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-30 01:59:11
subject: <b>I think a couple of you missed something</b>
body:
[quote]Perhaps Verin is one of the Aes Sedai from Egwene's prohpetic dream, &quot;Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot;<br />Seams like whatever Verin has in mind for Mat is going to affect the whole world if it is in the best interests of Rand.[/quote]<br /><br />This dream was clearly about Teslyn and Edosina. (Or however it is spelled)  His debating over whether to rescue those two from the Seanchan ends up leading to his marriage to Tuon, which is essential to Rand's success.<br /><br />Also, to the comment that the Horn is an illusion in the Amyrlin's study, remember that Siuan would not know how to invert her weaves to hide it, so that rules that idea out.<br /><br />More than likely it is hidden in the cellars somewhere.  Fain assumed the Horn was in the storage rooms, but he could not sense it like he could his dagger.  I believe he just assumed it would be there.  Besides, that would be a pretty crappy hiding space, if you think about it.<br /><br />P.S. How the heck do you bold someones text?


created: 2006-11-30 11:47:53
subject: <b>Good one, Etzel</b>
body:
This is almost the same as my long-held belief.  The only difference is that I don`t think Verin will get the Horn first.<br /><br />On some others` comments about Fain, I think Fain is wrong about the Strongroom holding the Horn.<br /><br />This could be his assumption based on the fact that the Dagger and Horn traveled together; ergo, they are still together.<br /><br />A secret hiding place known only to Verin and Siuan doesn`t fit with the Strongroom, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-30 13:22:45
subject: <b>bold</b>
body:
Thanks to everyone for the great conversation, it's been some good reading.<br /><br />to do <b>bold</b> you need some HTML <br /><br />bold is &quot;<b></b>&quot;<br />italics &quot;<i></i>&quot;<br />underline &quot;<u></u>&quot;<br /><br />there are more that you could look up.<br /><br />I believe that Elaida never knew anything about the horn being blown by mat or that it is even in the tower.  I believe that she would be much more obsessed with Mat if she knew.  I think this is one of the things Siuan was able to hold back. i bore a whole says that &quot;RJ mentions that the horn isn't where Siuan would have left it,&quot; but i don't remember reading anything from RJ about that, could you reference the quote?  It would be interesting, convenient, and consistent  plotwise for an aes sedai to show up with the horn, since I very much doubt that Mat has any desire to be back in or near the white tower for any reason.  While it would be interesting for Tuon to end up giving it him, i don't think there is enough time for the seanchan to attack and defeat the tower, ransack their warded stores, sort through everything, find the horn, recognize it, and send it to mat before the last battle.  <br /><br />One major inconsistency for me is how the angreal, sa'angreal, and other things like the horn are protected.  It seems like they have very little protection and certainly nothing a forsaken couldn't overcome. So, why then has masana never gotten any of the angreals in the tower?  She has had ample time to snoop wearing any face she likes.


created: 2006-11-30 13:28:22
subject: <b>bold</b>
body:
oops, i forgot to hit preview to see if you could actually see the html code.<br /><br />here it is:<br /><br />&lt;'B&gt;bold text&lt;'/B&gt;<br />&lt;'I&gt;italicized text&lt;'/I&gt;<br />&lt;'U&gt;underlined text&lt;'/U&gt;<br /><br />just remove the ' in all cases


created: 2006-11-30 13:45:24
subject: <b>A couple of things</b>
body:
One possibility is that some of the taint was transferred to the Horn from the dagger. When Rand stole them back from Fain, he hid the dagger in the bell of the Horn where it stayed until Turak removed them from the chest. (About 11 days) This isn't very likely in my opinion, but I thought I'd throw it out there.<br /><br />We should recall that Elaida interrogated Siuan pretty severely when she and her coterie deposed her. Siuan later says she was able to withhold a few things, but doesn't elaborate on what these are. It may be Siuan spilled the beans about the Horn, and Elaida had it moved to the storeroom figuring that was a safe location now with the extra safeguards in place.<br /><br />From Fain's words, he basically said not very many Aes Sedai knew about the Horn being in the Tower strongroom, which implies that a few <i>did</i> know. This is a far cry from only Siuan and Verin knowing about it being in the Tower at all, and they aren't there when this scene takes place. I would have to interpret this to mean that a few AS now in the Tower know it's in the strongroom.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-01 15:15:46
subject: <b>Is Mat still the Only One</b>
body:
Since Mat died hanging from Avendesora (after he blew it [blew the Horn of Valere, I mean, not implying that he blew Avendesora]), is he still the only one who can sound the horn as &quot;The Horn&quot;?<br /><br />I don't know if this has been addressed elsewhere in an FAQ or Theory Post or a response from RJ, but it's worth considering.<br /><br />


created: 2006-12-02 00:10:36
subject: <b>sorry gawynssecret</b>
body:
to Sovienye Gaidin...<br /><br />Mat is the only one who can summon the Heroes of the Horn. Anyone else who uses it would only get the results of a normal horn. Unless Mat dies, in which case it's open season.<br /><br />to gawynssecret...<br /><br />Sorry to mislead you. RJ has not, to my knowledge, ever stated himself that the Horn has been moved. I said that because I felt it was the author telling the audience pertinent information. I will be more careful with what I say in the future. It was my understanding that the Horn had been moved since Fain mentions it, and it makes no sense to mention that fact if it's been in the same place all along. Fain makes no attempt to get the Horn when he retrieves the dagger, so adding in that information is useless unless it actually has been moved.<br /><br />As LitN and Etzel have pointed out, AS told Fain about the whereabouts of the Horn. It could not have been Fain 'sniffing.' I happen to belive Fain, since the only way he could be wrong is if he talked to only BA. Normal sisters can't lie (so they wouldn't even mention it unless they knew about it), and Fain can be very persuasive- he got a Fade to talk. And since he says that few sisters knew the true location, I assume that he's talked to several different sisters. <br /><br />As for the ease with which Verin might get the Horn, I don't believe that it will be easy at all. Someone asked earlier why the FO haven't raided the WT stores yet, but Mesaana actually tells the other FO that there's no way to get in. They would get caught, the security is tight strictly for the fact that the WT fears the FO. I doubt Verin could succeed easily where the FO fear to tread. The FO have the benefit of BA sisters inside willing to help, but the scheduling and meticulous attention paid to the strongrooms keeps them out. Graendal risks going into Illian with Rand the asha'man rather than go into the WT for angreal. Verin, even if she had strong, reliable contacts inside the tower, couldn't do it.


created: 2006-12-04 12:27:57
subject: <b>Re the Strongroom</b>
body:
How would Elaida know to ask Siuan about the Horn? If that happened then Siuan would also tell Elaida about the Dagger and Fain`s involvement.<br /><br />It makes no sense.<br /><br />Dont recall Fain saying only a few AS knowing about the Horn. If he did, it would imply Siuan and Verin, and how would he know that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-06 06:38:34
subject: <b>Eladia knowing where the Horn of Valere is makes no sense at all.</b>
body:
Eladia is an ego maniac who dreams of having the DR paraded around at her leisure. If she knew about the HV being in the Tower she wouldn't have it locked up but in her study as a symbol of her power. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-08 17:20:40
subject: <b>Horn and Oath Rod.</b>
body:
You quote Rand as saying &#8220;<b> The Prophecies say I have to bind the nine moons to me. </b>&quot;  The word &#8216;bind&#8217; is interesting in that people don&#8217;t usually speak of their allies (especially temporary ones as the Seanchan are likely to be) as &#8216;bound&#8217;.  As someone else mentioned above, there could be more to this phrase than we assume.   We know that Tuon is a latent channeller, therefore she could be held by an oath taken on the Oath Rod.<br /> <br />There are very few situations that I can think of where she would submit to swearing that kind of oath (of fealty to the DR), but if Rand out-generalled her and threatened her forces, her sense of honour and duty to her subjects might persuade her, where a threat against her personal safety would not.<br /><br />Perhaps as well as the Horn, Verin has gone to the WT to &#8216;borrow&#8217; the Oath Rod.<br /><br />Siuan and Moiraine have been so close for so long, that I think that it is likely that they have shared some of their &#8216;secret&#8217; weaves.  Moiraine talks of her &#8216;invisibility weave&#8217; in the Blight, so perhaps Siuan has hidden the Horn on one of the shelves with the other angreal, tied off the weave and no-one knows it is there.  <br /><br />Also, Verin has spent some time with Nynaeve, and Nynaeve and Elayne found the Bowl of Winds using &#8216;need&#8217; in TAR.  Verin&#8217;s original experiments in TAR were not a success, but she is always willing to take risks, so maybe she will search for the hiding place using that method.  <br />


created: 2006-12-09 01:16:16
subject: <b>Where was the horn originally?</b>
body:
I am not a big WOT guy like some you guys, but where was the horn originally in the tower if it wasn't put in the storeroom?<br /><br />Why does everybody think that the horn was moved?


created: 2006-12-18 06:08:18
subject: <b>agreed</b>
body:
as soon as i read that part i figured it was mat she after<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-28 10:01:18
subject: <b>I agree strongly</b>
body:
<b>Mat will need someone who knows how to travel</b><br /><br />1 - The tower Ghenjei for Moiraine<br />2 - The White Tower for the Horn of Valere<br />3 - Cairhien for the Banner of the Dragon<br />4 - Caemlyn to get the resources to mass produce cannons and arquebuses<br /><br />Mat can't reach so many place in such short time on horseback so he will really need someone who knows how to travel.<br /><br /><b>Enter Verin</b><br /><br />Verin is the most likely candidate to find and help Mat.<br /><br />1 - She know how to travel<br />2 - She participates to Mat's healing in TDR so she can sense from him some distances<br />3 - She knows about prophecies more than any one so she really could get the part about the fax and the raven<br />4 - She know where is localised the Horn of Valere<br />5 - At the end of KOD, she is the only candidate available to help Mat that is on move


created: 2007-06-23 15:27:25
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
i agree verins most likely ports of call are to get the horn and then find mat (how she is to do this i dont know since she hasnt a clue where he is) <br /><br />one thing im not sure about though is the seanchan attack on the white tower. it is probably going to happen though it isnt certain, egwene and the wise ones are always quick to say they only see possible futures. i am not sure it will come beofre the last battle though<br /><br />the last battle is coming fast, everyone is marching toward it now. if tuon meets rand and agrees to his alliance until after the LB then they are hardly going to honour it by attacking the WT are they? especially since it means marching their armies through ghealdan and andor which i cant see rand, elayne, perrin or alliandre putting up with. <br /><br />if she rejects his treaty then the seanchan will be facing nearly the full might of rands army. every man who can hold a spear from tear is on their way to arad doman as well as the goshien Aiel (and probably the tardaad since rhuarc is there too), we must assume that simliar orders have been issued in cairhien and illian, the other clans are probably on the move too, and we also know that a very large number of ash'aman have been ordered to arad doman.<br /><br />rand seems to be massing his forces, we have seen him send a hell of a lot of his troops to arad doamn and since he says that he will hit the seanchan from all sides we assume he has similar numbers in illian. if tuon rejects the alliance she will be too busy fighting a desperate defence to think of striking at WT, she doesnt have the infintie rsources of seanchan at her back anymore, all she has now is what is already on this side of the aryth ocean.<br /><br />i think one of two things is true here. <br /><br />a) tuon will agree to the alliance, the LB will come and go. the whole world will be weakend and the seanchan will seize this oppotunity to take control by hitting at the WT. (rand will have faked his death by then so the WT will be the only power base left)<br /><br />b) Egwenes dream could have been a possible future. if rand doesnt neutralise the seanchan they will march on the tower and do it great damage.<br /><br /><br />im personally in favour of option A though


created: 2007-08-12 11:39:03
subject: <b>Amazing, accurate, theory!</b>
body:
It makes perfect sense to me, and I love how you supported other possibilities at the end. Somewhat short, but very simple. I definitely say thumps up, and I believe that's what's happening.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I helped bury them, my boy. On that low hill, the one with the apple trees.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-23 18:36:34
subject: <b>Still contibuting to the site...Thanks.</b>
body:
I like you reasoning.<br /><br />Etzel is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-29 20:39:33
subject: <b>Mat died - Sovienye Gaidin is right</b>
body:
&quot;Since Mat died hanging from Avendesora (after he blew the Horn of Valere), is he still the only one who can sound the horn as &quot;The Horn&quot;?&quot;<br /><br />-----Also, regarding the Seanchan attacking the White Tower, I think Min's visions make that a necessity.  Min saw many Aes Sedai bloody and one with an adam on her neck.<br /><br />But Verin doesn't know either of those things...  It should be very entertaining!


created: 2008-04-27 18:23:58
subject: <b>Uniting the Borderlands</b>
body:
I highly doubt Verin will be the one to get the Borderlands behind Rand. KoD seems to indicate that Nynaeve (as the future  Queen of Malkier) will take that role, and rightly so, as it will set the stage for Malkier's inevitable rebirth after the LB.


created: 2009-01-02 13:33:05
subject: <b>Mistakes...</b>
body:
It has been more than 75 years since Verin has made a serious one. Nobody is more patient, more observant, or more careful to be accurate in their actions than Verin. She is more sly than Moghedien in that respect. She is also wise enough to understand what she doesn't yet know. Of course, only such wisdom can account for such patience.<br /><br />Verin knew who and WHAT Perrin was before pretty much anyone else. She referenced the axe and the hammer at a time when Perrin hadn't yet a clue to the struggles he would face in that regard. <br /><br />Surely she has pieced out Mat's role defined in the prophecies to a similar degree, with a few holes not quite filled in. That would explain why she hasn't yet spent a similar amount of time in his presence. She felt the need to observe how Perrin would grow into the role she knew he was made for. Until she had &quot;enough&quot; information, a comparable observation of Mat wouldn't be quite as interesting, or perhaps informative.<br /><br />Now, she believes she knows &quot;enough&quot;. Of course, one of RJ's themes throughout the entire story is people acting out of a certainty that what they surmise is absolute fact, and being amazingly wrong. No character has been safe from this behavior, including Verin.<br /><br />So she knows now that there must be a connection made between Rand and the nine moons, and that Mat is the source of the connection (the fox and the ravens). She doesn't know that the connection has been made.<br /><br />Verin's supposition that she is going to facilitate the &quot;binding of the Nine Moons&quot; to Rand, will turn into her facilitating Moiraine's rescue vis a vis Travelling. She might also provide a tidbit to Mat, Thom and Noal that ensures their success in the Tower of Ghenjei.<br /><br />(BTW, the Tower of Ghenjei's location is East, but in view of, the river Arinelle, at a point somewhat East or slightly Southeast of Bearlon, and well upriver from Whitebridge. When Rand, Mat and Thom, during the flight from Shadar Logoth, sailed downriver to Whitebridge with Bayle Domon they saw the tower. Perrin's chase of Slayer in T'a'R took him well away from the Two Rivers)<br /><br />As for the Horn, I have long believed, as others have written, that if Elaida knew it's whereabouts she would have put in on display to bolster her standing with the nations. Who would not follow the holder of the Horn? But remember, Alviarin had charge of questioning Siuan and Leane, and being Black, perhaps she learned some things she didn't pass on to Elaida. Just idle, unsupported speculation there. I think it is important to note that only Siuan and Verin knew where Siuan chose to place the Horn, and that a storeroom might just not be that place. Verin managed to hide the existence of Coreanan Nedeal's dream ring from the entire Tower, I'm betting she could hide the Horn of Valere. And if it isn't behind White Tower wards and guards, it is possible for her to fetch it unnoticed. <br /><br />I don't actually believe she is going to fetch the Horn before having contacted Mat, though. Consider his PoV. If Verin showed up with the Horn, would he be more, or less, likely to cooperate with her? He wants nothing to do with the Horn, and still hasn't fully accepted his duty within the prophecies. The sudden arrival of an Aes Sedai he doesn't trust, but who knows several of his secrets, bearing the Horn, would drive him to bolt. No, Verin will earn his trust before springing the Horn on him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-03-03 14:16:46
subject: <b>The Horn as a musical Instrument</b>
body:
Could the Horn of Valere be the musical instrument with which Mat breaks the rules of Snakes and Foxes?<br /><br />


created: 2007-01-16 07:06:50
subject: <b>Well Done!</b>
body:
Exellent Theory, I voted yes.<br />Just one question - why the eyes, why the black flecks?<br />My first thought was saa, about the black flecks, and the only other thing I can think of is the taint, and that's been gone since book 9!


created: 2007-01-16 09:14:00
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
You have some interesting ideas, but in the end, I can't really agree with your conclusion.<br /><br />First, the eyes. It's been foreshadowed for sometime that Rand will go blind - Min kisses his eyes just when Rand passes the point of no return for attempting to cleanse saidin, the fisher is blind, etc. This implies that it is some sort of actual injury - though it does seem to be complicated with his link to Moridin, who has damage to his eyes from the saa. I don't see it as a symptom of 'reintegration'.<br /><br />Second, why are you believing Semirhage. RJ has repeatedly mentioned that you can't trust the forsaken. I'm sure that some of what she said was true, but it was also very misleading - an attempt to cause trouble with the good guys, to get them to think their leader is insane and can't be trusted. While this is all true to a degree, taking Semirhage at her word is a mistake.<br /><br />Third, reintegration. You seem to make an assumption as to what reintegration is - you assume that in the process it's the past life that takes precedence. Why? We have no supporting information for this. It seems much more logical to me that in the process of reintegration that the present life would overtake the past life. But in the end, we just don't know what reintegration actually is, much less what symptoms it may cause.<br /><br />And finally, we will see LTT in Rand's head again. Rand didn't think, wow LTT is completely gone, or wow I'm somebody new now. LTT has disappeared for long periods before, so his absence over a very small period in KOD is not worth commenting on.<br /><br /><br />I did enjoy the theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-01-16 09:34:54
subject: <b>good theory, few points i'm unclear on</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>4. Rand and Lews Therin&#8217;s contention between each other will be a thing of the past. We will now see a sheepherder with the full knowledge of the Age of Legends, united against the Shadow. Logically, he will no longer have a problem killing a woman.</b></font><br /><br />I don't understand why his issues with killing women would have changed.  LTT's issue seems clearly related to killing his wife before he died, where as Rand was raised to never harm a woman.  We see that Perrin and Mat have very similar philosophies with regard to this.  Mat even more so than Rand, in some ways.  So why would being reintegrated change this in Rand?  <br /><br />Also, Sidious seems to claim that after a soul is tainted by the taint on Saidin it is a permanent taint.  But that can't be possible unless you believe that the wheel will never repeat the Age of legends or any other age where men channelers were sane.  <br /><br />On the whole I liked the theory and agreed with it, but there seems a few holes in it imo, or at least parts that are unclear to me.  <br /><br />Also, i'm pretty sure the black flecks were due to his connection to Morridin and the saa.  Too much of a coinincidence otherwise.


created: 2007-01-16 09:48:05
subject: <b>I disagree as well...</b>
body:
First of all, I agree with kcf that we shouldn't believe everything what Semirhage says in this scene. She just wants to sow dissension among Rand's followers after all.<br /><br />Nynaeve explicitely says that she doesn't want to try to Heal Rand's eyes, because it could blind him. I also don't really understand why having problems with your eyes should be a sign of a possiblly successful reintegration anyway. <br /><br />Furthermore, I don't really see why such a simple attack, like Semirhage's fireball, and Rand &amp; LTT trying to defend, could provoke this reintegration, if it's apparently such difficult to achieve, and since it already happened in the past that Rand and LTT fought each other in dangerous situations.<br /><br />Also Rand doesn't remark that something changed between him and LTT (it often happens that LTT fights him in one dangerous moment, but doesn't do anything if the danger is over, like here). <br /><br />After Rand sees the a'dam he considers: &quot;That thought should have made him shiver. He seemed to feel Lews Therin shiver.&quot; So, contrary what you state, Rand actually doesn't shiver, while LTT seems to shiver. Plus, in the very end of this scene, Rand still says he: &quot;My name is Rand al'Thor. I'm the Dragon Reborn&quot;.<br />Both points indicate that nothing changed regarding their disparity.<br /><br />Besides all that, I think it makes much more sense that the conflict between LTT and Rand will come to head even more till it will be solved more directly, and not such casually (maybe it won't even be solved before the very end in the Pit of Doom). <br />It is after all, one main plot point in the whole series.<br /><br />Anyway, though I don't buy it, it's good to have a new and interesting theory!


created: 2007-01-16 12:38:44
subject: <b>Not Sure</b>
body:
When I first saw your theory, I was ready to say &quot;I don't think so.&quot;, but I read it anyway.  It was good, well written, and plausible.  At the end, I had to say, &quot;Well, ... it could be.&quot;<br /><br />After reading the others' comments, I think your theory remains <u>possible</u>, but I think it's probably not right enough to vote for it.  So I voted NO.  However, I did enjoy reading your thoughts &amp; analysis about this (<i>echoing Etzel</i>).


created: 2007-01-16 13:06:43
subject: <b>Voted No</b>
body:
I don't understand why a simple explanation as an injury is not considered.<br /><br />It was a fireball, people! Which exploded right in his face! You don't have to be a doctor to assume that you'll get some kind of damage to the eyes. If you played enough with the explosions while you were a boy, you can understand that even simpliest uncontrolled explosion can have aftereffect to the eyes - the eyes are very fragile and even very small defect to the crystal can damage your vision.


created: 2007-01-16 13:36:01
subject: <b>Rand will be the blind Fisher</b>
body:
I liked your theory.  I agree with the integration part, but not with the part that his eyes will be fine.<br /><br />It is a forgone conclusion that Rand will go blind as the Fisher king that he is.   The proprecy that he will wander as a begger has also not yet happened.<br /><br />Yours,<br /><br />MountainDancer


created: 2007-01-16 14:00:21
subject: <b>i never agreed that rand would have to completely be the fisher.</b>
body:
to the person above me, everything, from one generation to the next, gets changed. also, if the people who played this game created a blind beggar, it could just be symbolism or an untruthful account of the past rand.<br /><br />anyway, as for the theory, very goot. me likey.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-16 16:09:46
subject: <b>As to the blind Fisher....</b>
body:
In the books, Moridin describes the Fisher as having a bandage blinding his eyes, not that the Fisher is actually blind. In fact, that he wears a bandage would indicate that he is protecting his eyes, perhaps because light hitting them hurts. (Like Mat in tEotW.)<br /><br />Not everything need be taken literally, either. The &quot;blinded Fisher&quot; could very well be symbolic of the fact Rand doesn't see all the things that are happening around him, or right in front of his face.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-16 19:04:36
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
I agree that something very strange occurred in the fight with Semirhage but I am not convinced that it was the so called &quot;Reintegration.&quot; <br /><br />A fireball that only burns his hand off would not seem to account for his apparent black out and then his eye trouble. Yet LTT is still in his mind when he wakes up, just not doing much. Perhaps they suffered a sort of head on personality collision that resulted in a type of soul concussion. I doubt this, but it is possible.<br /><br />My biggest problem is that I believe you are conflating soul with personality. Rand is not simply a natural manifestation of a body, devoid of LTT's soul. Rand is the third age incarnation of that soul with a second personality bouncing around in his head that is in fact the sum of his previous life's experiences. LTT is real, and his soul is Rand's. The issue is that this is completely unnatural. IMHO it is the result of channeling the taint, not just of Rand's channeling. In Tel'aran'rhiod, it is apparently possible for the Heroes of the Horn to have full access to all the memories of their countless lives. Rand's experience seems to be a corruption of this process as it is not merely the memories but the personalities that are present in his mind. <br /><br />This is nothing like what happened to Aran'gar and Osan'gar. They were given empty bodies. Rand's is not a conflict of souls, but rather of sanity and personalities. If reintegration is even possible, I do not think it occurred in the battle with Semi and I believe it would consist of Rand gaining memories, but loosing the personality (like Birgitte). <br /><br />Is it possible that Taim is such a reintegrated soul? One in which his AOL personality has become dominant and was perhaps a darkfriend or a forsaken? <br /><br />Lastly, it is also completely possible that the Dragon Reborn MUST have two personalities present in his mind to beat the DO. Through cooperation LTT and Rand have achieved a good deal that they were unable to do separately. One example is escaping from the AS shield during LOC. <br /><br />


created: 2007-01-16 20:14:34
subject: <b>Good but</b>
body:
Well i agree with the major part of your theorie, but the fact that reborn AOE male channeler will all have problem similar to Rand is &quot;out of place&quot;<br /><br />I do not believe that 2 soul exist in Rand because Rand is the Dragon reborn thus the same soul.<br /><br />I think that LTT place is sp&#233;cial as Semirage state. He is the most important soul in WOT and thus he must be somehow bound to the wheel in the same, yet different, fashion of the horn heroes.<br /><br />So when a heroe is reborn the soul leave the Dream world and start anew, So when LTT is reborn into Rand his soul goes into Rand body to become Rand's soul and he should have start anew like Ishy state &quot;this time you are not ready or strong enought&quot; well something like that.<br /><br />Maybe in the process of the reborn thing and the event entouring the death of LTT a part of LTTRand soul was trap in the Voidoblivion well the empty space. Thus only a great power could bring him out, Saidin.<br /><br />that way, it would explain the progression in the soul struggle and knowledge. For the more he channele the more soul part is comming back until he reach 5050 and thus a shock like Semi fireball breaks the last barrier.<br /><br /><br />As for those who state nothing is wrong the fireball burt his eye....   Well Nynave state that THERE IS SOMETHING STRANGE not a simple eye burn.<br /><br />well my 2 cents<br />


created: 2007-01-16 22:30:59
subject: <b>souls</b>
body:
cant be a reintegration of souls.  LTT and Rand have the same soul. that is the whole point of reincarnation. new body new soul? that isnt reincarnation. gotta be the same soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-17 14:02:30
subject: <b>Interesting, but I don't agree</b>
body:
Since crossing bale-fire wth Moridin, Rand has gradually felt more and more of the &quot;third&quot; as well. Even LTT has noticed this. We'll need to wait and see what Nynaeve says/thinks from her POV and then we will understand more. I just wonder whether in fact Rand is now already blind, and Nynaeve recognizes this, but doesn't understand how Rand seems to be able to see anyway. Perhaps through LTT's eyes?? And perhaps Moridin will, in the future after the Last Battle, be condemned to remain in the husk of Rand's body, blind, maimed and &quot;power&quot;-less, whilst Rand has a new, healthy body.


created: 2007-01-17 16:04:32
subject:
<b>Very Interesting - You have so many points to prove though that I can't but disagree on this one, though</b>

body:
I do agree that there was a full integration, and I do agree that Rand was experiencing the taint (which increased after he began using Callandor more and more), and I do agree that the taint enabled Rand and Lews to share enough in common that their personalities began to leak into each other.<br /><br />However, I tend to think that Lews Therin and Rand will start to experience periods when LTT is in control and Rand is not. For example, around Min, Rand will be in his own mind. But the next time he is in a fight to the death against a Forsaken he might blink and find that five minutes before he experienced a blackout (or who knows, maybe he will be a spectator), LTT is in control, burning Lanfear to a crisp, and reducing Black Ajah Sisters to ashes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The fact is, that to do anything in the world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in and scramble through as well as we can.&quot; -Robert Cushing<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-17 18:37:29
subject: <b>Hmmm. Interesting theory.</b>
body:
I don't really agree with the conclusion. The stuff leading up to it is pretty plausible, but the fact that Rand and LTT were reintegrated because of a fireball doesn't swing well with me.<br /><br />Also, I don't like the word disintegration. I think you may have wanted to use misintegration. You're looking for a word that mean integration gone wrong or backwards, not taken apart. Yeah, I'd say 'Misintegration' or even 'Differentiation' is the word you wanted to use.<br /><br />*Ok, not really Differentiation. I was just doing my homework and thought it was funny.*<br /><br /><br />


created: 2007-01-18 04:26:43
subject: <b>Interesting, but too much wishful thinking</b>
body:
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I just don't agree.<br />Firstly you're trusting the Forsaken's words, which we know is at least partly false. Also I think the reason Rand and LTT share a bond is a mechanism of the Pattern so that Rand will have the skills he needs to fight the Dark One.<br />Also I don't believe that Rand/LTT weren't integrated because LTT went mad, remember there's such things as genetic madness as well and other forms some of which can lead to insanity much worse than the Taint, yet these people will also have been reborn.<br />


created: 2007-01-18 14:51:35
subject: <b>Injury!</b>
body:
I agree with Skeeve the Great -- a fireball exploding in his face would have been enough to cause optical damage.<br /><br />The reintegration theory is interesting, and kudos for creating and explaining it so meticulously, but it seems far-fetched. Like others have said, LTT is still there, and he's not doing much because he's probably recovering from the attack. There's not enough solid evidence in the theory to convince me that &quot;reintegration&quot; caused damage to Rand's eyes.<br /><br />It was the fireball, plus Rand's tendency to amplify all his injuries. He gets a wound in his side, it never heals, he gets another wound across it, that one fights with the first wound... his body's screwed up. He needs a new one.<br /><br />My two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-18 18:38:46
subject: <b>Moridin</b>
body:
i thought it was merging with moridin than LTT. When the balefires crossed pthsthey kinda merged. The black flecks are moridins saa.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lad, I'm the best damn Gleemen ever&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> --&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&quot;Shall i never know who killed Asmodean&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-20 00:23:38
subject: <b>mainly I think the same as those above...</b>
body:
so I won't repeat, but I did have something new to add.  If the lack of integration is due to the taint, then how were there people in the AoL that heard voices of past lives?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-20 12:08:14
subject: <b>Good..but backwards</b>
body:
I think you have a very interesting theory, but I tend to believe the opposite is whats happening.<br /><br />At the start of the story Rand was a normal person. The personalities of his past incarnations and his made up his soul like any other person.<br /><br />But I've been re-reading the first books and one thing thats stood out is that after Rand began channeling there would be times when he &quot;thought&quot; tihngs, and seperate mentions of a &quot;voice in his head&quot;<br /><br />the voice was always taken to be Rands own thought because it mentions things LTT would not know. But as time passes it more regulaly begins to talk AT him or about him and be less and less his own thoughts.<br /><br />I think this is the start of a seperation (disintegration) between Rand and one of his previous personalitys (LTT)<br /><br />As time goes on and they become 2 distinct people in one body they go further and further frmom what they were in the beginning. Now we have 2 personalities fighting for dominance of the same soul, whereas before all would have been in a melting pot of consciousness.<br /><br />Its also worth noting that as Lews Therin becomes more defined Rand loses more and more of his humaninty.<br /><br />Lews therin is part of what makes him human but now that part stands seperate. Lews Therin Laughs and cries..Rand does not.<br /><br />If the blurred vision has anything to do with LTT it would be because the level of seperation is so high that he is actually trying to take over control of the eyes, giving 2 differnt perspectives from each eye and bending vision..like looking through water.


created: 2007-01-20 12:58:24
subject: <b>Very interesting, but in the end I disagree ...</b>
body:
Regarding the (re)birth of souls ...<br /><br />I think that normally, when a soul is reborn into a new body as a baby, there is a barrier in place that prevents  previous incarnations of the soul from influencing/affecting the new one (i.e. the barrier prevents the new soul from &quot;remebering&quot; anything about previous incarnations).  I would call this a &quot;fully intergrated&quot; soul, not because there was any sort of &quot;intergration&quot; involved between past incarnations of the soul and the new one at the time of birth - there wasn't, the barrier prevented anything like that from happening.  But rather, because the new incarnation of the soul is a &quot;single personality&quot; whose development is based solely on his/her experiences in the new lifetime.<br /><br />As for Rand ... up until when he started channeling, his personalilty was fully integrated, and he was developing as any other reborn soul would, uninfluenced by past incarnations of his soul.<br /><br />However, when Rand started channeling, the taint on saidin weakened that barrier, and LTT (the most recent previous incarnation of his soul) emerged (not only as a voice in his head, but as memories as well, as the text you quoted explained).  And, the more he channeled (at least, while saidin was still tainted), the weaker the barrier became (this is clear from the text you quoted, where Rand thinks that the more he channeled, the &quot;stronger&quot; LTT got).  Until KoD, Rand was able to prevent the LTT persona from taking control of his body, but he could do nothing to prevent LTT's memories from becoming his own.  Personally, I don't think that this all occurred because the &quot;soul&quot; had been tainted during LTT's lifetime (as you suggested) - I don't think &quot;souls&quot; can be tainted.  But, the fact that the LTT personal in Rand's head is crazy is certainly a result of the taint, because LTT had suffered the affects of the taint before he died, and it's the post-taint LTT that emerged in Rand's head.<br /><br />Given the above, I'd say that Rand suffers from some form of &quot;dual personality disorder&quot;.  I would guess that in, less severe barrier-weakening cases (whatever the cause), the person affected simply remebers things from a past life without there being a &quot;voice&quot; in his/her head.  And, in more servere barrier-weakening cases, the person affected may have multiple past incarnations/personas emerge, resulting in some form of &quot;multiple personality disorder&quot;.<br /><br />&quot;Reintegration&quot;, then, would be the process by which the dual or multiple personalities were eliminated, such that only the true, original personality remained.  <br /><br />In Rand's case, that would mean re-establishing the barrier between past and present lives, such that only the original &quot;Rand&quot; personality (pre-LTT emergence) remained.  In other cases (like Sibyl in the movie, whose personality split into multiple versions) &quot;reintegration&quot; would mean recombining the split personalities back into one.<br /><br />Now that the taint on saidin is gone, it may be that Rand's barrier is no longer weakening (or it may not - the wound he go from Ishy at the end of TGH may also be affecting the barrier in some way, as may be the balefire-crossing incident from ACoS).  The question in my mind is, will the barrier start strengthening again now that the taint is gone, or will something more dramatic need to occur for that to happen?<br /><br />Regardless, though, I personally don't think Semirhage's fireball affected the barrier in any way (why would it?), and therefore I don't think the eye damage Rand suffered as a result of the fireball is in anyway related to the LTT persona in Rand's head.<br /><br />Note that, prior to rebirth, the soul DOES remember many of it's previous incarnations (not sure how far back that memory goes - perhaps one full turning of the Wheel?).  We see evidence of that with Birgitte, who remembers many of her previous &quot;lives&quot;, not just the &quot;Birgitte Silverbow&quot; one.<br /><br />Interestingly, Birgitte is now undergoing the reverse of what Rand is.  That is, her barrier is strengthening. Because of the unnatural way her soul was &quot;reborn&quot;, there was no barrier in place, at first, and Birgitte still retained memory of many previous incarnations.  But, as she herself explained (I don't remember where the exact quote is), she is starting to &quot;forget&quot; those previous lives, which indicates that a barrier is forming and strengthening, now.  Eventually, I expect the barrier to be complete, such that she doesn't &quot;remember&quot; any of her past lives at all.  Oh, I think she will always &quot;know&quot; that she was Birgitte Silverbow in a past life (as will Elayne, and those others who also know), but I don't think Birgitte will retain any memories of having been Birgitte Silverbow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-21 19:46:28
subject: <b>I agree with you that LTT has become more dominant, but...</b>
body:
I don't think that reintegration has occurred.  LTT has a voice in his head as well.  How would that fit in with your theory?<br /><br />I think that LTT becoming a more dominant entity fits in with the Dragon Reborn dieing at TG, but Rand surviving. It was prophesized that in order to live, Rand must die.  I always believed that the LTT personality would die as a result of the Dragon Reborn's battle with the Dark One.  Do you think that the two personalities will become separated as a result of the  Last Battle? If not, what do you think will become of Rand after TG? <br /><br />I enjoyed reading your theory and would be interested in your thoughts about my questions.


created: 2007-01-22 03:39:07
subject: <b>Birgette and Mat</b>
body:
Very good theory with a lot of things to think about. The only other person who gave us any insight about past lives was Birgette. She explained about being able to remember alot of past lives when she was in tel aran rhiod and only recently commented on slowly forgetting her past lives. If what you say about reintegration is true then the evidence to support that is with Birgette. If she didn't start forgetting her past lives then she would probably be going mad like Rand. It also supports your theory on the taint as both Mat and Birgette have no signs of going mad. Well Mat only seems like he's going mad when he's around women and Aes Sedai. Mat is also interesting as he had memories implanted by the Aelfinn and Elfinn. He also has one memory of his own in a previous life as a general in Manetheren. Well thats probably been covered in another theory but overall I enjoyed the theory enough to add my two cents.


created: 2007-01-22 13:59:42
subject: <b>-Shiska</b>
body:
You very eloquantly laid out what I think has been happening to Rand due to the taint. I think this is a very common (if not universal) affect of the taint - and it also explains Cadsuane mentioning voices as well (she's had lots of experience with 'mad channelers').<br /><br />A couple of examples of where we've witnessed some 'gaps' in integration are with Mat and Egwene early in the series. Mat calling his battle cry in EotW (which Egwene almost understood) and then his screaming at the AS during his healing. All evidence (IMO) of him being King Aemon reborn. But clearly, Mat is a fully integrated soul with a distinct personality all its own even though he is now a special case with all those other memories crammed into his head by the 'finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-01-22 15:11:11
subject: <b>I agree with Shiska, too....</b>
body:
Don't know exactly how this may play out, but in the end, Rand may very well be ripped out of TAR like Birgitte was to close the &quot;barrier&quot; between him and LTT once and for all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-22 16:27:06
subject: <b>To KCF &amp; LitN ...</b>
body:
To KCF ...<br /><br /><b>You very eloquantly laid out what I think has been happening to Rand due to the taint. I think this is a very common (if not universal) affect of the taint - and it also explains Cadsuane mentioning voices as well (she's had lots of experience with 'mad channelers').</b><br /><br />Thanks, and I agree.  To some extent, it would seem that many of the Asha'man (especially those who channeled a lot prior to the Cleansing) are suffering (or are destined to suffer) from a similar barrier-weakening as Rand, judging from Cadsuane's comment.  I wonder if some hear &quot;voices&quot; of past lives (those who are the reborn souls of male channelers who were affected by the taint in the AoL, perhaps?) and some simply &quot;remember&quot; past lives (those who are the reborn souls of male channelers who were never affected by the taint, perhaps?).<br /><br /><b>A couple of examples of where we've witnessed some 'gaps' in integration are with Mat and Egwene early in the series. Mat calling his battle cry in EotW (which Egwene almost understood) and then his screaming at the AS during his healing. All evidence (IMO) of him being King Aemon reborn. But clearly, Mat is a fully integrated soul with a distinct personality all its own even though he is now a special case with all those other memories crammed into his head by the 'finns.</b><br /><br />You know, I didn't even consider that, but I think you're absolutely right.  I doubt that Mat and Egwene (and other Two Rivers folk, too) have weaker-than-normal barriers.  Rather, they probably have stronger-than-normal souls, and consequently there's a little past-life &quot;seepage&quot; through their barriers.  Even if that's right, I would agree that Mat &amp; Ewgene are fully integrated souls.<br /><br />To LitN ...<br /><br /><b>Don't know exactly how this may play out, but in the end, Rand may very well be ripped out of TAR like Birgitte was to close the &quot;barrier&quot; between him and LTT once and for all.</b><br /><br />That's an interesting thought (I think I've seen you and DomA discuss it before, IIRC).  I wonder, though, if that were to happen, would ripped-from-TAR Rand eventually lose all memory of not only LTT but also his past life up until the moment he was ripped from TAR?  That would be a very interesting plot twist, I think ...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-22 16:48:46
subject: <b>In keeping with the off-topic discussion</b>
body:
Maybe we are on to something with taint causing trouble, and now we should consider another channeler of much discussion - Taim. It is becoming more and more clear that Taim is Taim and not a reborn forsaken, bu he does have a few suspicious qualities. <br /><br />Until recently, Taim never really comes across truly insane, but his meglomania and paranoia (as referenced by RJ himself) were always there. Maybe Taim's often remarked upon comments about 'so-called' aiel is more than his knowledge of the old tongue and an example of how he has his own integration problems that have maybe proceeded further than anyone has really guessed. Who's voice is in Taim's head. <br /><br />*note - I think this has great potential as a full theory, but I know I'm not going to write it up*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-01-23 09:30:43
subject: <b>That's an interesting idea, Ken.</b>
body:
That would explain some of Taim's behavior &amp; knowledge, that led us to think he was a Forsaken in disguise.<br /><br />Personally, I believe Taim was recruited to the Shadow after he arrived in Caemlyn and became head of the BT.  Your idea helps make that idea more plausible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-27 00:13:13
subject: <b>Excellent work, but Semirhage does lie</b>
body:
I expect that her comments are at best half truths.  She may believe that Rand will go mad.<br /><br />I agree with Sidious' main thrust, that Rand and LTT are merging.  Rand is clearly not mad yet.  Also, it is my understanding that the effects of the taint are essentially uncurable.  The effects are more like a scar or a damaged organ that can't heal.  If LTT can get better, we don't know how it is possible.  <br /><br />The vision thing.  He might tie a rag over his eyes so that Moridin won't know what's going on.  Likewise, Mat might do something similar.  Or something more profound may be going on with the eyes.<br /><br />Very unclear right now, no pun intended.


created: 2007-02-02 16:57:59
subject: <b>Well presented, Sidious</b>
body:
I believe, however, that the eye damage is just that -- an injury from fire, and that the black flecks were caused by Moridin`s saa, seeing through Moridin`s eyes. <br /><br />It may be that they (Rand and Moridin) integrated for that moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-07 11:01:47
subject: <b>&quot;reintegration&quot; and Lews Therin's madness</b>
body:
I agree with Shishka, and more so, in that I think you have misread &quot;reintegration.&quot;<br />As far as I know, this is the standard term for talking about the process of healing someone with multiple personalities so that they only have one personality.<br />I think a lot of the conjectures in this theory come from the idea that reintegration is some process that all reborn souls (therefore, in WoT, all souls) go through.  However, with reading reintegration to mean basically what it means in our world, this is incorrect.<br />Everyone is a reincarnation, but only Rand (as far as we know) is someone reborn.  <br /><br />On the matter of Lews Therin's madness and the taint-I don't think his soul is, or can be, tainted, in the same way an injury would not remain on a soul.  I believe his madness is linked to the knowledge of the actions that named him Kinslayer.  This is supported by the fact that he does not match the happy-go-lucky madman we met at the beginning of the prologue in EotW, but is more like the weeping wretch at the end of the prologue after Ishy has healed him temporarily.


created: 2007-02-11 06:46:33
subject: <b>Beutiful theory</b>
body:
beautiful theory, let the integration be a little more adverse, and it will make &quot;to live you must die&quot; make sense, and also make aviendah's children make sense<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Word to ya</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-13 13:16:56
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I'm a bit skeptical on a few things.<br /><br />First off, I don't think that we're necessarily going to see Lews Therin in the body of the sheepherder (who, now, will have no problem killing women). There was a prophecy about the reintegration, wherein Rand and another man fused together to make a new, third man. I doubt the other man was Moridin, as they're more likely to kill each other than become bodybuddies.<br /><br />Second, Semi was not the first time Rand has fought a Forsaken. She wasn't the first he's fought so close. She wasn't the first he's fought since LTT showed up. He's fought Asmodean, Lanfear, Rahvin, and Sammael up close and personal (and don't tell me that, battling with the Power over the CK key, hand-to-hand, was less of an intimate &quot;KILL HIM&quot; moment than with Semi). She certainly wasn't the first time that they've both had a common goal (sheesh, the chapter before, they worked together to kill Trollocs, they both wanted out of the box, they both wanted to break the shields...).<br /><br />Still, this is very good work. Certainly food for thought.


created: 2007-03-24 04:10:32
subject: <b>Alternative thoughts</b>
body:
Like you, I also thought that the effects on Rand's eyes held particular significance, and while I found your theory interesting and well cross-referenced, I had a different interpretation of what happened.<br /><br />Others here have mentioned the black flecks reminding them of saa, and that Rand's link with Moridin makes this a complicated moment.  We know that when Rand channels, the aftereffects (sickness/dizziness) can affect Moridin; isn't it reasonable to assume that when Moridin uses the True Power, the aftereffects (saa) could affect Rand?<br /><br />Assuming Moridin is aware of the link (and I think this is a reasonable assumption), how much of its nature does he know?  What would happen to him if Rand were to die?<br /><br />We certainly know Moridin doesn't want Rand killed from what's he said to the forsaken, so is it plausible that perhaps Rand's protection from the fireball came not from his sceptre, but rather from a a highly self-interested Moridin?


created: 2007-06-16 18:04:26
subject: <b>ehh</b>
body:
Am I the only one who has gotten a concussion, and immediatly after seen black flecks, and then it progressed to &quot;seeing through water&quot;?<br /><br />As for why Nynaeve was hesitent to heal it, I think thats simply because the eye's are sensitive to the OP, like they are to most other external factors. <br /><br />On top of that Nynaeve was described as looking incredulous after the fireball incident, and Rand didn't seem to be annoyed that his hand was missing, so why should she worry about his eye's right there and then?<br /><br />Other than that the reintegration theory seems plausible to me, just not the Semirhage incident.


created: 2007-06-23 15:05:28
subject: <b>eyes</b>
body:
at the risk of sounding white ajah i'd look to the logics more.<br /><br />rand has just had a ball of fire explode on his hand, searing light has hit him in the face. his eyes may not be damaged, they may just be dazzled. anyone who has been near so a sudden burst of light would tell you that vision goes at first then returns slowly, but it is hazy, like looking through a heat haze or, as rand says, through water. he has had this before, the lightning bolt he calls when first learning to channel does a similar thing to his eyes.<br /><br />nyneave doesnt want to try healing it but remember that the aes sedai are stiull learning about the new healing. they now know different elements are used for different ailments so she does not want to risk trying a weave until she is sure which one is best on the eyes. she could try it the old fashion way but perhaps eyes are difficult things to heal like the brain is? the old healing was &quot;field healing&quot; used in an emergency if the patient would die unless treated instantly, very few people die from eye problems so mybe it isnt covered by the old way, we have never heard of an aes sedai curing blindness are improving someones sight when they are short sighted.<br /><br />i could be wrong but i think we are looking to far into things


created: 2007-07-14 23:17:45
subject: <b>I agree with some other people</b>
body:
Like many others, I believe that when Ishy/Moridin and Rand's balefire crossed it did nasty things, after all, Moridin was using the True Power. So now Rand and Moridin are connected and stuff


created: 2007-08-01 11:22:12
subject: <b>cataracts?</b>
body:
this made me curious (and yes i realize that this is an older post, but...)<br />so i looked up retina damage and cataracts and found the following page:<br /><br />http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/guide/health-cataracts-eyes<br /><br />...which basically details that cataracts can explain his odd vision, and cataracts can occur as a result of severe eye trauma.<br /><br />i tend to agree with everyone who's posted about the fire causing the damage....i think his retinas were damaged by the light/heat of the fireball....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-16 13:46:47
subject: <b>AWESOME LOGIC</b>
body:
Very inspired.  Succintly and credibly explained.<br />Bordering on the brink of genious.  I enjoyed reading this post and felt it made perfect sense.


created: 2007-08-21 08:45:08
subject: <b>Possibly</b>
body:
I mostly agree, this is a very well thought out theory. There a only a few things that make me not sure, namely: we cant be <i>positive</i> we know what 'reintagration' is.<br /><br />Also, I believe the first true time we see LTT in rand is back in tSR: <i>decisions</i> (lanfear and Rand) <br /><br />&quot; 'You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!' 'And you loved power!' For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true - he knew they were true - but where had they come from?&quot;<br /><br />This is clearly the very first time rand has any knowledge of the AoL.<br /><br />The next time he does something with knowledge of the age of legends occurs later in the same chapter, when he creates the ball of Power that shoots forth lightning to kill all the Trollocs in the Stone.<br /><br />The first time he actually hears LTT occurs while he is making it: <br />&quot;He had to... had to... had to...<br /><i>Now.</i> the thought floated like cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness. He severed the flows rushing out of him, leaving the thing still whirling, whining like a drill on bone. <i>Now.</i>&quot;<br /><br />Although there isnt definite proof, it seems extremely likely it is LTT saying 'Now', not rand, especially due to the &quot;cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness.&quot;<br /><br />sorry for the side track, great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-26 14:16:04
subject: <b>I don't see what the problem is here....</b>
body:
&quot;'Reintegration', then, would be the process by which the dual or multiple personalities were eliminated, such that only the true, original personality remained.<br /><br />In Rand's case, that would mean re-establishing the barrier between past and present lives, such that only the original 'Rand' personality (pre-LTT emergence) remained. In other cases (like Sibyl in the movie, whose personality split into multiple versions) 'reintegration' would mean recombining the split personalities back into one.&quot;<br /><br />Fallacious -- Bifurcation (false dichotomy).  Logically speaking, the only REQUIREMENT for &quot;reintegration&quot; is for the initial &quot;one person, multiple personalities&quot; mental state somehow being replaced with the standard &quot;one person, one personality&quot; mental state -- i.e. &quot;off-kilter&quot; --[Process]--&gt; &quot;well-adjusted.&quot;  <br />One either manages reintegration or they don't; so long as reintegration occurs, does the &quot;how&quot; of it REALLY matter?<br /><br />My wager is on the the 'Rand' and 'LTT' personalities being blended into a 'Rand-LTT' personality, which combines the best of both.  The 'Rand' personality is a cold, selfish twit -- but that doesn't mean that COMPLETE and TOTAL inadequacy; there *is* such a thing as being right by accident. &lt;_&lt;  <br /><br />Example: the Borderlands bit about refusing to kill women simply because they're women struck me from day one as one thing that the 'Rand-LTT' Rand would be better off without -- meaning Rand's post-integration ('Rand-LTT') personality *should* favor 'Rand' over 'LTT' on this one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Isn't self defense a fundamental law of existence?  Threat, response.  In the proper circumstances, even ONE woman is threat enough to take seriously -- something the Aiel clearly recognize (the existence of Far Dareis Mai, among many)<br /><br />&quot;On top of that Nynaeve was described as looking incredulous after the fireball incident, and Rand didn't seem to be annoyed that his hand was missing, so why should she worry about his eye's right there and then?<br /><br />Other than that the reintegration theory seems plausible to me, just not the Semirhage incident.&quot;  Rand has no hand, and  Healing didn't fix the problem -- so he focuses on adjusting.  <br />Will Min abandon him?  Will Elayne abandon him?  Will Avelenda (sp) abandon him?  How will this affect his ability to defend himself and those he cares about?  <br />He already has his answer to the first three -- Min gave it to him through the bond (one would naturally assume that Elayne and Avelenda would answer this the same as Min here): &quot;NO!&quot;<br /><br />And as for &quot;the Semirhage incident&quot;: for all we know, Semirhage's Fireball could well have been the only &quot;integration trigger&quot; to occur within the (or a) window of opportunity -- how long had it been since the threat was THAT immediate, again?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit. - Ayn Rand</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 20:53:50
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The flecks are probably the Saa. He's merging with Moridin becuase of the balefire incident in Shadar Logoth.


created: 2008-04-11 17:58:30
subject: <b>yes but</b>
body:
reintergration I would think would mean you and the past are lives are one, LTT was talking about rands life like it was his...<br /><br />no one els has any kind of reintergration like LTT that we can point to silver bow lady is not the same cause one, no taint, two shes forgetting her past lives and that would mean her reintergration has failed because she forgot or maybe I dont understand that part


created: 2008-07-02 19:07:29
subject: <b>Not Reintegration</b>
body:
I had to agree with some of the other posts that the reason Rand has trouble with his eyes now is not reintegration.  It seems like much of your theory is conjecture.  You use passages that are vague, at best, to interpret the situation.  Not to put down your theory, it was very original and I enjoyed reading.  However, having just been bombed with a fireball it seems far more likely that Rand's eyes were injured in the blast.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Lews Therin is quiet simply because of shock.<br /><br />   Regarding the multiple souls, it seems more likely that Rand and Lews Therin are not seperate souls in the same body but the same soul, albeit with some strange malady due to some outside force (ie. the taint effecting reintegration from the start).


created: 2009-01-18 19:21:48
subject: <b>reintegration nonsense</b>
body:
Much of the theory is built around a supposed definition for &quot;reintegration&quot;. We don't even know what that means. Semirhage is the only one to mention it, and it was not even her field of specialization.<br />From what she said, reintegration comes as part of treatment for mental disorders by Graendal(psychologist, psychotherapist, and nympho extraordinaire). It might be even the final phase at which the specialist (Graendal) can pronounce the treatment as successful, i.e. bye bye insanity. But then again, we don't really know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-24 21:37:19
subject: <b>i agree(almost)</b>
body:
good work very thorough<br />but i still believe that the problem with his eyes are because of his link with moridin


created: 2009-06-04 08:17:21
subject: <b>Morodin</b>
body:
Problem with his eyes probally the link with Moridin,<br />with his temper and his Sanity LTT and with his body Ishy and Fain.<br />Oh well nobody told him it was fun to be The Dragon Reborn.


created: 2009-07-13 10:58:44
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I liked this theory and read it many times. It was quite original and offered some interesting points. I do have issue with the black flecks crossing Rand's eyes as being part of a reintergration process though. We've seen cases where 'black flecks' were described as the saa, so that's just what lends me to believe otherwise. As for why? Well, perhaps it was such a jolt and shock to the system (fireball in the face and losing a part of your body) that somehow the link between Rand and Moridin got touched? If both are feeling the channeling sickness, it stands to reason that more can cross their link. <br /><br />Rand's vision could have been affected by the sharp light caused by the fireball ...or, it could have something to do with the saa. It's never said outright whether or not anyone using the TP has issues seeing. Just that eventually the saa turns into fires. Now, to back track a bit on that - it would stand to reason that vision isn't affected by the saa, else it would be difficult for Ishmael/Moridin to use the power. It's been explained (somewhere, I don't have the actual quote) that seeing what you're trying to affect with the OP is necessary. Then again (I know I digress), those who learn to channel waggling their fingers or throwing fireballs like a baseball, will always do so. So, it may be possible to relearn how to channel without looking at an object. Hm. <br /><br />As far as the integration portion goes, I like the idea - but as another (PowerHouse Elite) put it, I lean towards the opposite. I think that due to channeling tainted saidin, the two personalities split from where they were previously merged. We see early on in Rand's channeling that he just does things without understanding. He's using the OP with knowledge that is inherent to him. The same can be said for Mat's use of the Old Tongue as early as TEOTW. The first real time that Rand feels/notices another voice float up from elsewhere, is when he's using Callendor in TSR, which as we know from Cadsuane, has no safety buffer and most likely increases the effects of tainted saidin. I feel like that is where the true separation begins. Then later in TFOH after Rand has been training with Asmodean, LTT makes a stronger appearance. <br /><br />I don't necessarily know if the attack by Semi caused them to merge - but we do know from Min's viewing that a merger will take place. <br /><br />Anyways, that's all I have to say. It was a great theory to read and it helped me formulate a few things in my own mind which I more or less put here. Great work!


created: 2007-01-23 09:21:49
subject: <b>interesting...</b>
body:
I would have never put those two pieces of information together, bz on that. I think there is a good possibility of this--I feel like Elayne will be pissed about losing any part of Andor, but it's fairly obvious by now that she won't be getting the Two Rivers, and she is getting Cairhien after all. I can see the post-Tarmon Gai'don Westlands being divided up into only a few nations instead of the myriad there were at the start of the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a gambler, a farmboy, and I'm here to take command of your bloody army.<br /><br /><i>Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made. <br />Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades. <br />What was asked is given; the price is paid.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-23 12:57:29
subject: <b>On to something?</b>
body:
You may be right.<br /><br />One thing to consider is the difference between what the characters (Ishmael, etc) do and what the author is doing.  I believe that Ishmael was just tempting Perrin and there was no &quot;prophesy&quot; involved on his part.  However, RJ, as the author, <b><u>may</u></b> have been foreshadowing Perrin&#8217;s future.<br /><br />We already know the Queen of Ghealdan(?) has sworn fealty to Perrin.  He will get Saldea via Faile and is Lord of the Two Rivers by acclaim.  So he has a fairly substantial realm already (assuming they all live long enough), even though he does not yet realize it.  <br /><br />I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re right, but you just might be on to something here.<br />


created: 2007-01-23 13:29:20
subject: <b>I doubt it.</b>
body:
This was an illusion created by Selene to entice Perrin - and I'm not convinced she had enough knowledge of Third Age history to come up with something that specific.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-23 19:18:47
subject: <b>What about the Broken Crown?</b>
body:
I agree with  Fanatic-Templar. Lanfear would really have had to know an awful lot about the 3rd Age to be able to pick that particular piece of info up.<br />However, Perrin does seem to be destined for royalty. I have always presumed that the Broken Crown was the Saldaean crown, but perhaps that crown itself has origins further back in time, possibly to pre-Hawkwing Basharande or even to &quot;fabled&quot; Manetheren (or one of the other Covenant nations).<br />For Perrin to be become King, I suspect that Tenobia will have to die, as will Bashere. But, with the fealty sworn to him by Alliandre of Ghealdan, the acceptance of his being &quot;Lord&quot; by the Two Rivers folk and then his ascension on to the Saldaean throne, a whole swathe of central Randland becomes Perrin's. <br />Surely enough to warrent some golden head-gear!


created: 2007-01-24 01:19:22
subject: <b>Very Interesting!</b>
body:
I don't think that another breaking is going to occur like the first time, but it's pretty clear that the nations are going to be torn apart. New nations will rise up and old nations will be destroyed. Malkier will be reborn. TG is gonna be the first real destructive force, and then the battle that destroys the black tower...that'll definitly rip up Andor...supporting facts for this is one of Egwenes trips through the Accepted Rings has her in the Caemlyn Palace and it's totally destroyed. It'll be a huge blow to the forces of light if Caemlyn is destroyed before TG. But if Anything, you'd think that Perrin would have a helm shaped like a wolf...so i don't know. And if Perrin was to get a kingdom from the wreckage after TG, and he gets it from Gheldan, the Two Rivers and Saldaea...well Gheldean and the Two Rivers makes up a large portion of what used to be Manantheren...


created: 2007-01-24 08:13:21
subject: <b>Forgetting Ishmael</b>
body:
Actually I think we're all forgetting Ishmael's presence, Ishmael who was advisor to Artur Hawkwing...<br /><br />Now that I think of it he would have been present to know what armour of Hawkwing's time looked like. Whats this means to the theory I don't know. It throws support to theory 1 and a little to 4.


created: 2007-01-26 17:40:47
subject: <b>Voted yes because useful hnking</b>
body:
I think its a good possibility that the armor might have been part of some attempt to influence Perrin to turn to the dark side or something.  But in fairness, I don't even remember the scene.<br /><br />Good work though.


created: 2007-01-30 00:15:33
subject: <b>well just a thought to consider</b>
body:
i am thinking that the whole idea with the possibility of Perrin somehow asending to the saladean/basherlandre [or however it was spelt] throne.<br /><br />something else to consider<br />may be that instead of perrins future.. cell it crazy<br />but who he was before?<br /><br />theres all kind of junk on how they are spun back into the pattern and what not. for example Rand was formerly Lewis Therin<br />but maybe this is a shadow of what perrin once was?<br /><br />probblie not<br /><br />but its still something to consider right? =]<br /><br /><br />all in all i think i should probblie re-read the chapter<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shippo</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-30 04:25:57
subject: <b>Saldaea, Manetheren, Ghealdan, Andor</b>
body:
I too believe that Tenobia will suffer an unfortunate demise, but Bashere will refuse to ascend in favor of his Daughter and son-in-law. So Perrin gains the Broken Crown of Saldaea.<br /><br />Manetheren rises again indeed, and once events become clearer to everyone, Elayne will learn how much good Perrin has done, and cede western Andor to him. It hasn't been earning tax money for Andor for several generations anyway, might as well be ruled by someone who cares about it.<br /><br />Ghealdan is his for the asking already, and my feeling is that it will be thrust upon him as the savior of Alliandre from the Shaido.<br /><br />The post-TG world will learn that the three Ta'veren from Emond's Field have saved the world, and not a soul will gainsay any honor, any glory, or any gift they are given. Oh, of course, some meddlesome, skirt-twitching, sniffing, arm-folding women helped a bit too. That includes the Queen of Andor, the Amyrlin Seat, the Queen of Malkier and the Empress of Seanchan. Nodoby important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-05 03:10:29
subject: <b>The helmet may hint at what, or rather who, Perrin was.</b>
body:
Someone once asked about the lion helmet on the WOT board and I did a little research and found that it is a style from Alexander the Great. That's what I think it represents: Jordan's reverse engineering of WOT history into real world history and linking Perrin to Alexander.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-02-06 18:01:05
subject: <b>Welll if perrin and elayne both have empires...</b>
body:
and they are friends ish then they could conjoin the two to rule the world peacefuly together or stay sperated yet do the same<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lad, I'm the best damn Gleemen ever&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> --&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&quot;Shall i never know who killed Asmodean&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-08 00:14:30
subject: <b>C'mon ThomasMerrilin</b>
body:
When has Elayne EVER shown that much sense <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-02-08 08:41:24
subject: <b>Sorry buddy.</b>
body:
I agree with SSJPabs .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-23 19:02:39
subject: <b>Ahh!</b>
body:
I think I understand and if I do then I like what I think I understand. I think.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />More seriously though, creating a similarity between two spaces or &quot;shifting them&quot; in space would likely be easier than trying to do either across time. <br />Travelling seems to be rather similar to using Tel'aran'rhiod and that exists outside of time and real space. Yet only space can be reliably navigated. One seems to be able to move WHERE one wants to go, not WHEN.<br />However, I like the concept, even though it took several re-readings to take it in.<br />Well done.<br />


created: 2007-01-23 20:17:21
subject: <b>Time traveling</b>
body:
As I understand your concept of time traveling, moving across space would be like moving in parallel to the Y-axis on a graph and moving across time would like traveling in the X direction (or vice versa depending on how you orient the cloth).  Is that right? <br /><br />But here is why it would not work according to WOT traveling rules.  Traveling requires a channeler to &quot;know&quot; the spot they are traveling from well.  From the perspectives of those doing the channeling, knowing a spot well enough to travel from it appears to require the ability to exactly recall even small details.  This takes a long time.  Logically, time traveling would require a channeler to recall all of the details of the precise instant they are traveling from.  Skimming would require the converse, the exact details of the time to which they are traveling.  Either is impossible because unlike most of the details of the physical world, time is continuously flowing by and the details of any particular moment are gone in an instant.  Even if they necessary precision was, say, as long as one minute or even hour, how could someone possibly know enough of that time period to travel? It would require a knowledge of all of the things that were happening in the world during that period of time because time passes the same everywhere.  If the DO cannot &quot;step outside of time&quot;, with all of his knowledge of the world, then I doubt a mere Aes Sedai, male or female, could do it. <br /><br />Wasn't sure what other points you might have been trying to make, but I thought I'd put my two cents in on this subject.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-23 21:25:13
subject:
<b>You can't travel back in time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Or forwards for that matter.<br /><br />By WOT reasoning, the past is woven, the present is being woven and the future is undecided.<br /><br />To travel to the past, you would be trying to force your thread into a part of the pattern that is already woven, and already determined.  If you were to travel to the future, you would have to wait until the pattern catches up.<br /><br />However, you could travel to any point in the present, since that is being woven now, and avoids the paradoxes of time travel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean:  You?  No!<br /><br />Ruarc:  Sorry!  Sometimes I forget to wear pants!<br /><br />        -Isam's WoT Summaries</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-24 01:39:39
subject: <b>Not at all possible...</b>
body:
if you were to travel back in time and say actually save the person that was supposed to die, the repercussions on the present could be huge...that man's death has sparked many things and influenced peoples actions which have in turned influenced other peoples actions...just like a pebble being tossed into a puddle...except there's no end to the ripples. So say the man has died and this makes another man do something dramatic, which in turns causes another person to do something and bam eventually you have Caemlyn being created. So you go back and you save that man from being killed, then you have potentially just stopped the creation of Caemlyn. And that could have a huge and disastrous effect on the present...to such an extent that it might cause Elayne to be woven out of the pattern(which I'm sure I hear some of you cheer)...Rand has it pretty good when he thinks about how Gitara set it all in motion by encouraging Tigraine to go into the Aiel Waste...if that had never occured. Rand would not have been born. The smallest thing can affect the future to such a huge extent...such as going back to stop Artur Hawkwing from dying...that would completely re-do the entire pattern, if it didn't actually cause the pattern to be destroyed(the pattern doesn't know the future, so if you have hawkwing return, how is the pattern supposed to know what choices he WOULD have made?, it doesn't)...ok, I'm gonna start now, cause I'm starting to confuse myself and time travel has never ever been my forte...it gives me a headache...suffice it to say, it can't happen!


created: 2007-01-24 13:10:46
subject: <b>Is Time Travel like Balefire?</b>
body:
I don't think I agree with the theory.  However, one of his observations is dead on:<br /><br />Going back in time would affect the pattern just like Balefire, only the opportunities to affect the Pattern of Time is far greater with time travel.  In both an action in the present changes the past, which in turn changes the present.  Both also possess the paradox that the actor in the present can be removed from the present by the his own change on the past.<br /><br />With balefire, the present action is balefiring someone or something, which removes it thread from the pattern back to some point in the past.  In this case, only this one thread changes, which in turn <u>affects</u> others, for example when Rand undid the deaths at the raid on Caemlyn.  It would take a HUGE about of balefire to remove someone's thread far enough back that the channeler would be removed from the present.<br /><br />When traveling back in time, the present action is that of going from the present to the past. Any actions performed in the past will alter threads (probably many).  We also expect time travel to be for a significant period of time, not just a few minutes or an hour.  So there are both more threads altered or destoryed and they would be done so farther in the past.  It could change the present beyond recognition, as some previous posters have pointed out.<br /><br />Given the effect of balefire, traveling back in time in Randland is logically possible &amp; there is a mechanism that explains what happens as a result.  However, I don't expect this to be a plot device that RJ will use ... but he has surprised us in the past.


created: 2007-01-24 16:59:57
subject: <b>Even the dark one cannot step outside of time.</b>
body:
Theres some validity to that statement. What it shows to me is that life exists at the point of weaving. what is woven is the  past. the lefttover of what was woven right?<br /><br />Traveling can be done because a life thread can be moved from one location to another easily as long as it is done while still being woven. <br /><br />Moving threads around is what makes weaves in the first place..in a baser sense.<br /><br />think of a sewing machine maybe..you can sew a thread along any path, change direction, turn 90 degress (ie travel great spaces without taking up any time. but if you try to sew back into the cloth you create a tangle...the weave bunches up and the whole thing ceases to move forward.<br /><br />Time travel ALWAYS creates paradox. Thats why balefire is so dangerous. one day people would be erased from the pattern in the right order to cause a time ending paradox, and someone going back in time physically with the pattern metaphor would do that almost immediatly<br />


created: 2007-01-25 11:00:09
subject: <b>Time ....</b>
body:
according to my understanding of the WOT pattern and the use of the one power i think that time traveled is possible. But Rand use all his strenght, well his last strenght to burn ravhin like 20 minutes back in time.<br /><br />So lets says at his full force he can remouve 1 hour to someone life.<br /><br />as we know the use of an agreal do not double one strenght in the OP so he can burn 1,5 hour<br /><br />now with a Sa angreal like callandor, if i remember correctly he channeled the amount of power of a 100 men. balefire will result in a 4 days <br /><br />Now the big one..... i won't try make the calculation, let just says that if it is use that way, he would destroy time itself.<br /><br />But as for going back in time, he would have to combin travelling to balefire 2 OP strenght consuming weave so let says it would halve the effect<br /><br />so in the best of thing he will be able to go 2 days in the past.<br /><br />Now for the DO, i will state a few thing that prevent him to go back in time<br /><br />1- the creator wacht him as for not breaking the rule of their game wich his &quot;Who will win the world!!!&quot; in a game that only the DO can win and the creator goes for a draw.<br /><br />2- The DO exist at the same time in every age and mirror of the world so he cannot step in a place where he is already there..... not juste a copy of him but HIM for only 1 DO exist. Remember that quote &quot; If the DO if freed in one image, he is freed in all, but as long as he remain in prison in one, he remain in all...&quot;


created: 2007-01-26 10:10:18
subject: <b>wont be possible</b>
body:
in our world theres 2theory about how to travel great distances(10000000000000 or more) km distances(might be more,this is guessing..) <br /><br />1)youll bend the space(THE PATTERN)like putting a rock on a middle of cloth,so the rears will face each other,then the way is shorter and you drill your way through the emptiness<br />(similar to the mens way to Travel)<br />2)you rip off the material before you so the way will just shorten while you dont move  <br /><br />That might be our way to Travel some day,and with those conitions,time travelling is impossible(it was still a good theory)<br /><br />        I shoudnt know things like that,i watch entirely too much tv...<br />and im probably all wrong..........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well, any person that you fear<br />And anything that is severe<br />And any place you won&#180;t go near<br />You see they&#180;re nouns, you see they&#180;re nouns<br /><i>Carai an caldazar, bitch!</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-31 20:10:08
subject: <b>Aviendha's portals</b>
body:
I seem to remember a lot of support for the theory that Aviendha created a portal that travel through both space and time when the group escaped Ebou Dar. The theory was based on the idea that her portal required more of her strength than it should of. Additionally there was some evidence that the sun moved backwards in the sky.<br />


created: 2007-02-04 17:12:04
subject: <b>Nice theory, but I voted no</b>
body:
I think that the Pattern might become unstable just by folding it that way. In other words the pattern can be folded along one axis only. It can be folded along the &quot;space&quot; axis, so that you can Travel from place to place but it can't be folded along the &quot;time&quot; axis. Why? I don't know, maybe because folding along the &quot;time&quot; axis leads to too many unsolvable dilemmas. Just my supposition. Neat theory tho, enjoyed it.<br /><br />NaCl<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-02-11 06:03:07
subject: <b>what about this</b>
body:
what i wonder is what if the bolt that destroyed lews therin at the beginning of teotw and the beginning of the breaking was not a simple lightning bolt, but lews therin balefiring himself with as much power as he could possibly command<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Word to ya</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-11 06:17:47
subject: <b>extra</b>
body:
forgot to metion the reason i say this,    dragonmount i think exists because lews therin did something with his dieing strength right before he realy died, he attacked himself, i think he would have done it for a reason (he was sane at the time) even in the same book we have evidence of an extremely power aes sedia using her power with a death stroke, and she leveled a city, but didnt bore into the earth in any way, lews therin did something when he killed himself, he didnt die by over drawing on the power, he was sane and i think he had an idea, one i might remember in the future but who knows, if it was balefire he'd never stand a chance of doing that. i think lews therin overdrew on the one power, but i think that before i destroyed him, right after that edge that would burn him out, he attacked himself with balefire, with a clear mind and all his endurance, and i think its possible that in this situation that he could burn his own thread many ages back, maybe even 7<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Word to ya</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-30 04:06:23
subject: <b>Nicely done.</b>
body:
Much of your theory is quite good, though I can't quite accept that he honestly isn't dead. While several of the quotes you gave can support a &quot;staged&quot; death, there is as much to suggest otherwise.<br /><br />First, RJ tends to craft his foreshadowings in such a way that they aren't intially obvious, but once the event is at hand, are understood to have been clear. And Min saying that Alivia would help him to die is straight out.<br /><br />In your penultimate comment I think you touched a very important point, and that relates to the Messiah connection. That Rand would be dead three days links in an important event (albeit a historical, not mythical one). Add to that &quot;Nynaeve will not be satisfied until she has healed someone three days dead.&quot; Rand's savior persona and that comment have always held my attention, and sway me as against any theory that his death isn't real.<br /><br />The point about Min's viewings ending with a person's death caught my attention for a moment, but I can't find a reference to that being stated factually. Beside which, Rand dead for three days, then brought back to life means that his thread in the Pattern hasn't truly ended, so Min's access to a vision of him dead isn't out of bounds IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-30 11:32:04
subject: <b>Good thoughts on Keepings</b>
body:
I think this is the most plausible of all of the theories I have read about Rand's &quot;death&quot;.  Before I read this, I had never thought of this application for a Keeping.  Great catch Etzel.  On a similar note, bravo to Tim on the passage about Nynaeve not being happy until she had healed someone three days dead.  Things like this seem to have a way of coming true.  Remember Nynaeve's thoughts on surrendering (don't have the books at hand or I'd supply a direct quote) and breaking her block.  To paraphrase, she thinks to herself that the only time she would be capable of complete surrender would be if there was no other hope, like if for instance, she was drowning.  I think maybe you caught this one early Tim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-30 12:21:52
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
Truly it is one of the most sound theorie i have read, maybe the keeping thing won't be the trick but i think you describe the scene quite well.<br /><br />Alivia helping him somehow logain laughing because he knows of the plot and his 3 watch dog looking overhim<br /><br />Good work<br /><br />


created: 2007-01-30 16:54:33
subject: <b>Very Interesting!!</b>
body:
Something else to support this theory is Egwene's dream about a man dying, but it's important that he not die, and outside his funeral pyre is being built. I disagree with the Logain knowing about this...the one of Logain stepping over a body, I personally believe that he's stepping over Taim and taking over the Black Tower, that's where his Power and Glory is going to come from.<br /><br />I recently watched an episode of Grey's Anatomy where they lowered this man's body temperature to stop his heart and the flow of blood so a blood clot could be removed from the brain, after the clot was removed they started the man's heart again...he was technically dead, by law...<br /><br />my point is, that maybe there is something that could be done with the power to Rand...he could be &quot;killed&quot; and then preserved, and then brought back by Nynaeve thus Nynaeve could heal him after he was &quot;dead&quot; for 3 days.


created: 2007-01-30 16:58:55
subject: <b>nice...nice</b>
body:
I like the idea that Logain will lead the forces for a while when Rand is thought to be dead this way. This perfectly allows for Logain to get his glory, while letting Narishma still come after once the Last Battle has been done. Etzel, you always do such an outstanding job on things.


created: 2007-01-30 18:04:01
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
I think this theory has been put together really nicely, but I think things will pan out differently.<br /> <br />I think Rand's BODY will die. I think the advice from the Finns is exactly true: In order to survive he will have to die first.<br /> <br />Rand has two, if not three people in his mind. He has also taken terrible wounds, not just physically, but emotionally and psychologically as well.<br /><br />What about the possibility of his body having to die to allow him to regain unique control of it again? Alivia using a &quot;keeping&quot; and then Nynaeve restoring him back to the Rand we all know and love, but without LTT or Moridin as unwanted houseguests.<br /><br />The DO has already shown himself capable of infusing one person's body with another one's soul or consciousness. Perhaps the side of the Light will be able to do the same trick, but this time returning a soul to the original body?<br /><br />Of course, kicking Moridin out of Rand's body (perhaps Moridin will see Alivia through Rand's eyes as she &quot;kills&quot; him) will help convince him of the Dragon's demise, setting the side of the Dark up for an almighty prat fall?<br /><br />So, in summary, good, even great theory, but I think some elements will be tweaked.<br /><br />Hopefully we'll find out in 2008 at the latest.


created: 2007-01-30 18:06:14
subject: <b>Great theory as expected</b>
body:
from you Etzel. Well argued and presented. I feel that the only stretch you make is &quot;I believe to solve this conflict, we will learn that damane invented a kind of One Power Keeping to preserve such badly wounded or ill humans till the person is brought to an ordinary healer.&quot;<br /><br />It may be a logical assumption but there is no evidence to support it. I do give you full marks for considering a &quot;Keeping&quot; placed upon a living soul/body to hold it in temporary stasis and give the appearance of death. A very original and elegant idea. Overall a very good theory.<br /><br />I feel that your proposition that Rand will finish Moridin before TLB is interesting - my thoughts are for more mainstream with Rand acting as the Creator's proxy and Moridin as the Dark One's in the final chapter of TLB.<br /><br />We shall have to wait and see - Hopefully only another twelve or eighteen months until we get to finish this series. (Aaaargh! I have been reading this series since '91).


created: 2007-01-30 18:26:59
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
I never actually thought about the Min's viewings not working after their death... genious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Thanks for pointing that out.  That completely indicates that Rand won't die in my book.  Then again, I never thought he would die to begin with, so my support may be biased. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-01-30 20:47:30
subject: <b>Quite good, overall</b>
body:
But I can't recall a lick of evidence for your claim that Min's viewings only go up to person's death. While it may make sense, I have trouble accepting it as fact.  Also, I raise a similar objection about the &quot;Keeping&quot; idea.  As has been said, it is a logical idea, but is a minor possibility at best.  The concept of Rand faking his own death so he can work 'undercover', if you will, however, is superb.  It would be just like RJ to do something so totally unexpected with his finale.


created: 2007-01-31 06:01:04
subject: <b>another reason for death</b>
body:
Also, keep in mind, that if he dies, perhaps the two opposing evils in his wounds would die also, so if he was brought back to life, he would be in good health without the wounds, without the blurred vision, and maybe without Lews Therin always trying to seize Saidin.<br /><br />But I disagree that he will fake his death. I think he really is going to die.<br /><br />If you stick to Christian lore, Jesus died and was resurrected by God. Maybe Rand commits suicide and forces the creator to act and resurrect him.


created: 2007-01-31 12:27:20
subject: <b>Interesting theory but...</b>
body:
All of these ideas seem sound (I especially like the one with Nynaeve healing him three days dead) and it would be possible to get the soul back in the body. Remember when Rand was fighting Asmodean in Rhudean? He used some weaves that &quot;Rand was convinced would tear the soul out of his body&quot; If someone could do that, couldn't someone (perhaps with the Choedan Kal) could do the opposite, and put Rand's soul back in his body???<br />Just something to chew on for a while... maybe two years....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of Naergothrendar, High seat of house Telcontar, and sane male channeler... Sorta...</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-31 15:38:42
subject: <b>A very good theory</b>
body:
I had never thought about the Keeping. It sounds logical, but RJ has always written in a way that hardly ever goes with mainstream thinking of WOT. We'll just have to RAFO i guess<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-01 09:21:52
subject: <b>Thanks for your replies!</b>
body:
To address the two main points of criticism:<br /><br />I think the different Prophecies about Rand's &quot;dying&quot; simply make the most sense if Rand doesn't actually die, but just fakes his death. <br /><br />Especially Nicola's description of Rand as one &quot;who is dead yet lives&quot; must mean that the death is fake; Rand is deliberately in a state akin to death due to a Keeping, but not actually without any life. Otherwise it's not really imaginable that someone who is dead lives at the same time. The definition of resurrection is that someone is first dead, and then is risen from death to start living again. Death &amp; life don't happen at the same time in this case.<br /><br />Also, it's not clear why Rand would need specifically Alivia's help for an actual dying. Finally, Egwene's Dream obviously points to a ploy by showing that the dead Rand is just a paper puppet.<br /><br />Second, it's indeed not explicitely stated that Min can't see what happens with the corpse of a certain person after his death. But it's the only logical assumption, since with the death of a person his life and his thread in the Pattern end. And to glimpse a part of the future thread of a living person must be what Min does, when she has a Viewing. Thus Min can theoretically see till the death of a person, how it will happen, but not beyond. <br /><br />This is supported by the fact that Min also never has another Viewing of what happens to a corpse and also doesn't have any Viewings, when she sees corpses. Indirectly this is what Min thinks as well, because she thinks that after Moiraine died, certain Viewings of her can't come true anymore. This implies that Min considers that she can only see till the death of a person, not beyond.<br /><br />It's finally also not comparable to Mat's death in Caemlyn, since this death was extinguished by balefire. After this incident Mat's thread continues, and therefore Min can read it.


created: 2007-02-01 17:18:16
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
awsome! That's one of the best I've read. It really seems sensible and you covered all the major points, and I especially liked the use and interpretation of the Prophesies. The only weakness is the Moridin issue, but that could easily (well not easily) be dealt with by Rand. Once again, great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weaver of the Lace <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Guarder of the Blight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Swinger of the Great Axe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-01 19:08:34
subject: <b>The Dagger</b>
body:
I like this theory a lot, but I just wonder...<br /><br />How does it help Rand to have his death faked if he has the dagger and none of the Shadow can see him?  It implies in the description of the dagger that myrrdraal and forsaken wouldn't be able to see him, but that darkfriends wouldn't be able to either.  So, his death may be faked, but nobody who would benefit from his faked death would know about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-01 21:05:05
subject: <b>Good theory but I disagree</b>
body:
First, I disagree with the idea that damane know how to heal or rather, I consider that they didn't know how until a yellow AS was captured at Falme and then teach it in Seanchan(KOD Attending Elaida:&quot;This healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are foolish about having the power touch them. Half of my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the blood, too, I shouldn't be surprised.&quot; That is said by Tuon who knows a great deal about channeling in Seanchan since she is a Suldam. So, if she herself says that healing was unknown before they captured an AS, then it must be so. One more time the guide got it wrong it seems)<br />It's possible however that they know how to perform a keeping, or that Alivia as learned it since she joined Rand.<br />An other thing I disagree with is your interpretation of the dream(&#8220;Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.&#8221;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />This one, is I believe when Rand made the bargain with the sea folk, first all go is way, then he leaves and the situation turn. the three women being the two AS and the weavemistress.<br />An other thing I disagree with is that Min can't have vision for people after there death. It might be true for the usual people but Min has had vision of Brigitte that she claim cannot be in a single lifetime, so obviously she does have vision for event after their death at least for Hero of the horn which Rand is.<br />Finally, I disagree simply because my belief in Rand dying and coming back is that I believe Rand will die for real, however being a hero of the horn, Rand will end up in T'A'R were Nynaeve who thanks to Brigitte and Moghedien knows that the Hero of the horn lives there and that they can be brought back to the real world directly, will do just that. I actually believe that this is actually the true reason that Nynaeve met Birgitte and learn this.<br />However, Your theory is still a great work, I just believe differently.


created: 2007-02-02 01:13:33
subject: <b>It's a pretty good theory,</b>
body:
However, I dissagree with it. Why does he HAVE to live again either as himself or in Moridin's body in everyone's theories? Everyone is reborn again and again as the wheel turns. Particualarly Heros of the Horn and the Dragon. We know that Rand's blood must spill on the Rocks of Shayol Ghul. We know that to live he must die. <br />Why could it not mean that if he did not sacrifice his life fighting for the light, then the Dark One would break free and destroy everyone down to their very souls for all eternity? Even RJ said that that is something the forsaken fear in the back of their minds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Val Hala sucks, trust me I've been there. Noone bathes...&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-02 03:40:36
subject: <b>A few additonal comments</b>
body:
To Alydar,<br /><br /><b> How does it help Rand to have his death faked if he has the dagger and none of the Shadow can see him? It implies in the description of the dagger that myrrdraal and forsaken wouldn't be able to see him, but that darkfriends wouldn't be able to either. So, his death may be faked, but nobody who would benefit from his faked death would know about it. </b><br /><br />Well, first Rand has to fake his death in a convincing way. Otherwise the Forsaken, etc., won't believe that Rand really died. The dagger will - in my view - especially help Rand then to enter SG undetected from Shadowspawn.<br /><br /><br />To rosco12,<br /><br /><b> First, I disagree with the idea that damane know how to heal or rather, I consider that they didn't know how until a yellow AS was captured at Falme and then teach it in Seanchan(KOD Attending Elaida:&quot;This healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are foolish about having the power touch them. Half of my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the blood, too, I shouldn't be surprised.&quot; That is said by Tuon who knows a great deal about channeling in Seanchan since she is a Suldam. So, if she herself says that healing was unknown before they captured an AS, then it must be so. One more time the guide got it wrong it seems) It's possible however that they know how to perform a keeping, or that Alivia as learned it since she joined Rand. </b><br /><br />I didn't say that damane can't Heal. But your quote actually supports my argument that normally damane don't Heal, because just the thought of being touched by the OP is disgusting for most Seanchan. And it's basically being Healed by a dog in the eyes of many/most Seanchan.<br /><br /><b> An other thing I disagree with is your interpretation of the dream(&#8220;Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.&#8221;This one, is I believe when Rand made the bargain with the sea folk, first all go is way, then he leaves and the situation turn. the three women being the two AS and the weavemistress. </b><br /><br />If you combine this Dream with Nicola's Prophecy, which basically says the same, it's clear that Rand and his girls must be meant. Besides that, there were more women and other people in the scene with the Sea Folk bargain.<br /><br /><b> An other thing I disagree with is that Min can't have vision for people after there death. It might be true for the usual people but Min has had vision of Brigitte that she claim cannot be in a single lifetime, so obviously she does have vision for event after their death at least for Hero of the horn which Rand is. </b><br /><br />But Min just sees what Birgitte does in her various life times, not what happens to her, when she is dead.<br /><br /><b> Finally, I disagree simply because my belief in Rand dying and coming back is that I believe Rand will die for real, however being a hero of the horn, Rand will end up in T'A'R were Nynaeve who thanks to Brigitte and Moghedien knows that the Hero of the horn lives there and that they can be brought back to the real world directly, will do just that. I actually believe that this is actually the true reason that Nynaeve met Birgitte and learn this. </b><br /><br />Yeah, we disagree on this matter. As I said, in my opinion the various Prophecies make it pretty clear that Rand has to fake his death.<br /><br /><br />To Gilgamesh the Wanderer,<br /><br /><b> However, I dissagree with it. Why does he HAVE to live again either as himself or in Moridin's body in everyone's theories? Everyone is reborn again and again as the wheel turns. Particualarly Heros of the Horn and the Dragon. We know that Rand's blood must spill on the Rocks of Shayol Ghul. We know that to live he must die. Why could it not mean that if he did not sacrifice his life fighting for the light, then the Dark One would break free and destroy everyone down to their very souls for all eternity? Even RJ said that that is something the forsaken fear in the back of their minds. </b><br /><br />Because in my opinion the Prophecies in the overall view make the best sense if Rand's &quot;dying&quot; isn't meant literally, but just as an appearance of his dying for the world. Otherwise Rand can't be dead and alive at the same time, it's hardly understandable why Alivia must help him to die, and why - according to the Aelfinn - Rand might survive the Last Battle by dying.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2007-02-02 17:01:45
subject: <b>quick question...and then a comment</b>
body:
If the point of a damane not using healing is because someone wouldn't want to be touched by the OP, then why would the use of a Keeping on a person to take them to a traditional healer be any different?<br /><br />As for the Moridin connection to the DR when he's under the keeping, I don't think that we have to worry about that. Shiane comes out of Sammael's keeping looking for Carridan at the window. She doesn't know that he's moved. For her, no time has passed, nor have any thoughts continued since she plans on completing her thought to Carradin. If a person is without brain activity, then there's no way for Moridin to make any switch, or to see through Rand's eyes. At best, Moridin will have a nagging feeling but not know. There's never really been any reports of the connection he and Rand have, so he cannot make comparisons. Moridin and Rand have a link, not a bond that gets broken when one of them dies.


created: 2007-02-02 17:43:55
subject: <b>Excellent, Etzel</b>
body:
I agree with your Theory.<br /><br />The details may be different, finally, but Rand will not be dead.<br /><br />I have never liked the idea that anyone would actually heal a dead person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-04 01:10:26
subject: <b>Vacuole</b>
body:
Another thought is maybe someone will figure out a way to enter a vacuole(or a portal stone world where time passes differently), and Rand will only be gone for a short period of time in this world(seconds) while staying three days in the other realm. <br /><br /> Ps. voted yes, great theory.


created: 2007-02-05 10:42:39
subject: <b>CouldTavereen effect min's viewing</b>
body:
It could be possible for Min to have seen Rand dead if the pattern needed to show Rand dying to get him to do something. Balance and all...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-10 12:02:03
subject: <b>Nice theory! Some points...</b>
body:
First off, I agree with the general premise of this theory. Rand won't die in truth, he'll fake his death. And Alivia will help him.<br /> <br />I doubt, though, that Alivia at the moment knows what is to be done. As others pointed out, Damane cannot Heal. Also, if Healing is considered bad since no one wants to be touched by  the OP, any Keeping wouldn't be different.<br /><br />The simple answer to this is that Alivia will figure out the weave herself. In KoD, we see that Rand is trying to get someone to teach her. I think he'll succeed in aMoL. I have a feeling that this teacher may be Egwene (who better to teach a former damane than an escaped one?). I don't think Egwene will be privy to the plan though.<br /><br />I also don't think Elayne or Avi will &quot;free&quot; him from the Keeping. Egwene's Dream, where she herself touches Rand's face to discover the fake death, seems to indicate personal involvement.<br /><br />As I see it, Egwene will teach Alivia, who'll help Rand. Egwene will be kept in the dark, but will find out. The &quot;Amyrlin's anger&quot; that Rand has to face may well be for keeping Egwene in the dark about such a plan.<br /><br />That's it from me!!<br />


created: 2007-03-06 13:55:44
subject: <b>Not sure about relevance</b>
body:
But a quote from Winter's Heart, thanks to Halwin Norry, about Rand &quot;From what I saw of the man, I would not believe him dead until I sat three days with the corpse.&quot; Don't remember the chapter or page, but it's shortly before Daved &quot;Doilin Mellar&quot; Hanlon &quot;saves&quot; Elayne's life from the assassins he set up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-26 14:55:09
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I also wanted to add something I noticed in KoD for more support of this theory. In the chapter &quot;News for the Dragon,&quot; Rand is discussing with Cadsuane the truce with the Seanchan. He talks about how the Aelfinn told him that to win the Last Battle that &quot;the north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.&quot; But then he adds in his head that &quot;to live, he must die.&quot; Then he says: &quot;Not something he was going to bring up in front of Min anytime soon. In front of anyone except Alivia, for that matter. Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying.&quot; When I read the &quot;anyone except Alivia&quot; part, it made me think that maybe Rand has already discussed how she is going to help him die with Alivia, as if making a plan for it. Which seems to go along with your theory. <br />Anyways, just thought I'd throw that in there.


created: 2008-04-11 18:08:54
subject: <b>yeah..no</b>
body:
However, also Seanchan get injured in battles. If they decline the help of a damane in such a situation, they might die. I believe to solve this conflict, we will learn that damane invented a kind of One Power Keeping to preserve such badly wounded or ill humans till the person is brought to an ordinary healer. <br /><br />when you went on sayn I believe....damane invented a kind of one power keeping to preserve such a badly wounded or ill humans till its brought to an ordinary healer...<br /><br />yeah one when matts talking to his wife she never mentioned ANY such thing so after that I kinda stoped reading, and also the viewing was she would help him die, not fake his death.  <br /><br />Even with the tinker woman she knew she would die.  She had the head wound because of rand in the hut and they thought thats what her viewing ment, but she said she thought she would die and then the attack came and she did die and again had blood on her face like the viewing.


created: 2008-06-05 17:25:50
subject: <b>Is it faked?</b>
body:
I believe that Alivia's help in Rand's death is the death of Lew's Therin. There is a constant struggle between Rand and Lew's Therin in control of the one power and of Rand's body. If Lew's Therin ever takes control Rand's consciousness will be pushed back to nothingness. Everyone in  the WoT are reborn again it are those who have the voice of the previous persona in their heads as well as their own consciousness go mad. The help that Alivia going to give will be the death of Lew's Therin from Rand's mind.<br /><br />So the only voice in Rand's head will be Rand's.


created: 2007-02-01 02:29:13
subject: <b>Good one!</b>
body:
I thought the woman shrouded in shadow might be Semirhage, because she was linked to Mat via Tuon and hid her identity. In KoD we saw then that she brought Mat and Co. in great danger by initiating that the Seanchan army hunts the group.<br /><br />However, &quot;beckoned&quot; might rather fit with what Moiraine does in her letter. She wants that Mat and Co. come towards the danger in Finnland, not like Semirhage who sent the danger after them, so to speak. It's also might be doubtful that the danger in KoD was so &quot;monstrous&quot; (let us see what the Finn will do..).<br /><br />Finally, I think your point about Moiraine being shrouded in shadow due to her current situation as prisoner in Finnland makes sense.<br /><br />You could very well be right with your interpretation.


created: 2007-02-01 13:35:07
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
At first, I thought it might be Tuon, or perhaps Egeanin, and would deal with Mat's role at the WT (given the dream of Mat bowling and killing thousands of people).<br />But I think that Moiraine leading Mat into the Finn's lair would also count as monstrous. And there's the fact that a Seanchean woman (Egeanin?) is in Egwene's dream, but is not described as shadowed. I think that Moiraine's position is uniquely significant.<br />I like that fact that Egwene knows this woman, given that her FACE is shrouded, implying that should the face be seen, she would be recognized.<br /><br />Good job on a good theory


created: 2007-02-01 17:00:50
subject: <b>I always thought...</b>
body:
that the woman with the face shrouded in shadow was Tuon. Most of the evidence we've seen points to Tuon. Specifically the fact that Tuon, heir the the Crystal Throne is/was &quot;veiled&quot;. She was supposed to be veiled, anyway. I'm thinking it's a figuritive term not literal. But when we first met Tuon, she was veiled I believe. And, RJ only knows what danger she's leading him into. Actually, we've already had a taste of it, with him fleeing/fighting the Seanchan and such. And, lastly, she has dark skin, which would also account for the veil, dark, shadowy effect. So yeah. But if Tuon is one of RJ's decoy's, you know when makes it seem real obvious, when suddenly he switches it around, I'd definatly think it was Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weaver of the Lace <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Guarder of the Blight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Swinger of the Great Axe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-01 19:10:54
subject: <b>Tuon...?</b>
body:
She makes more sense to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-01 22:08:59
subject: <b>voted yes, but sort of disagree</b>
body:
My only hang up is the word &quot;monstrous.&quot;  Seems over the line a little.<br /><br />Though one could argue the the finns are literally monsters, I suppose.<br /><br />Interesting thought.  And about Aram, either there are unintended consequences about which we don't know yet, or else there was a change of heart/plot on RJ's part in getting rid of him.<br /><br />More than him just being crazy.  I suspect, for one thing, that Aram might have been the darkfriend in the prologue so many books ago where everybody is given their orders.


created: 2007-02-02 08:11:25
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
After reading this, I wonder what other alternative there could be. She is beckoning him exactly. Everything fits perfectly. I never would have thought of it, but seeing it written down, I just feel like slapping myself on the forehead for not seeing it. Its so obvious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-02 12:31:55
subject: <b>Aram as a darkfriend</b>
body:
<br />  I don't think I buy into Aram as the darkfriend Tinker, simply because I believe Perrin would have picked up on it.  Remember, Perrin can tell people's emotional states quite easily, and he never thought of Aram as evasive or guarded.  I think it's safe to say that when Aram says he thinks Perrin is a darkfriend, he's telling the truth.<br /><br />  As to the theory presented, I think this is very good, and certainly makes more sense than any other explanation I've heard for this particular dream.  Very nicely done.<br /><br />


created: 2007-02-02 15:55:27
subject: <b>Good one</b>
body:
Since the Dream, I had thought it was Tuon, but now  with the letter, Moiraine fits more precisely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-02 17:13:10
subject: <b>Nice Theory, Linda ...</b>
body:
The case you make for Moiraine makes a lot of sense.<br /><br />Just to throw out another possiblity ...<br /><br />What if this Dream of Egwene's refers to Mat's first encounter with the <i>gholam</i>, in ACoS ch.38, in the six story building when he, Elayne, Nynaeve, some of the Kin, etc. go to retrieve the Bowl of the Winds?<br /><br />A woman's scream (and some subsequent pleading from Nynaeve) is what causes Mat to abandon the fight downstairs and go upstairs to check on Elayne, which leads to his encounter with the <i>gholam</i>.  <br /><br />Since it's unclear in the scene who, upstairs, actually screams, that could be why the woman was &quot;shrouded in shadow&quot; in Egwene's dream.  <br /><br />And the woman's scream could be considered as &quot;beckoning&quot;, since it did cause him to go upstairs.<br /><br />And, of course, the <i>gholam</i> certainly qualifies as &quot;monstrous danger&quot;.<br /><br />I like this interpretation because this event occurs not too long after Egwene's Dream (one book later).  Not that that means anything - sometimes Egwene's Dreams are fulfilled in the same book in which she has them, and sometimes many books later.<br /><br />Anyway, just a thought ...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-04 17:45:46
subject: <b>Good catch Linda, this one had always baffled me</b>
body:
I think you've nailed it. It's one of those, &quot;now why didn't I see that?&quot; type of things. Your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to explain Perrin's wolfhead dream of Mat<br />&quot;That window faded and was replaced. Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.&quot;<br /><br />NaCl(I have complete faith in you)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-02-05 03:23:03
subject: <b>Thanks all for your comments.</b>
body:
I think the 'Finns do represent a great, even monstrous danger. Mat found that the Fox's habit of wearing human leather pretty repulsive. And it is. Obviously the Foxes represented a great danger to the original owners of the skins.<br /><br />Tuon was veiled, but her face could still be seen. And now she and Mat have headed in different directions. Considering there is only one book left, they may not meet again until TG is upon them.<br /><br />To Salty: I shall take up your challenge. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I think Perrin's wolfdream shows some of what happens to Mat in the world of the Finns - prior to him losing his eye.<br /><br />To Shishka: I agree the gholam is monstrous, but I think the scream doesn't beckon as much as Moiraine's letter does. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-02-05 10:33:03
subject: <b>To Linda ...</b>
body:
Actually, I agree.  In my proposal, the &quot;shadowy woman&quot; and the &quot;beckoning&quot; are almost incidental - Mat quite likely would have encountered the gholam without them. <br /><br />Whereas, with Moiraine and her letter, the &quot;shadowy woman&quot; and the &quot;beckoning&quot; are as important to the Dream as the resulting &quot;monstrous danger&quot;.<br /><br />I really think you're right about this.<br /><br />P.S. I also agree with your response to Salty about the meaning of Perrin's Wolfdream of Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-05 11:41:00
subject: <b>Another thought</b>
body:
This is a very compelling theory and makes a lot of sense. As ever though, there are alternative explanations. The key word everyone is focussing on here is &quot;monstrous&quot;, which leads my mind in a different direction.<br /><br />In another dream, Mat is bowling at skittles, each of which represents hundreds of men dying. This is almost certainly a reference to Mat using Aludra's Dragons (canons) in battle. In this dream, Egwene is appalled at what Mat is doing. Is it not possible then that the woman beckoning Mat towards great danger could be Aludra - after all, she has enticed Mat with her riddle about the bellfounder. The outcome of their relationship - the creation and use of Dragons (canons) is almost certainly something Egwene would consider &quot;monstrous&quot;.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2007-02-07 03:36:24
subject: <b>Mats eyes</b>
body:
Great theory, I think that you covered everything quite well. I have been thinking lately that maybe Mat losing his eye could help him get the Aelfinn out of his head. I haven't looked into it but I thought that maybe you might be able to shine a bit of light onto the subject (yea I know bad pun).


created: 2007-02-08 04:51:26
subject: <b>Perrin's Dream about Mat</b>
body:
Although it's slightly off-topic (but most seem to agree with &quot;The Woman in Shadow&quot; anyway), I rather believe nowadays that the Dream: &quot;Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest&quot; points to Mat's time in ACoS, namely his encounters with Tylin. <br /><br />Mat was basically bound by Tylin, the nakedness implies their sexual relationship, while the snarling shows that Mat wasn't very pleased by this situation.<br /><br />But we will see..


created: 2007-02-08 15:55:20
subject: <b>Re: Perrin's Dream of Mat</b>
body:
Why I think it&#8217;s of his time with the Finns:<br /><br />Mat&#8217;s wearing nothing but the things the Finns gave him &#8211; the spear and the medallion. They probably can&#8217;t take them off him because that would violate the agreement they made in TSR. I was actually going to write this up for my next theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-02-23 23:03:32
subject: <b>Another Possibility</b>
body:
It also could be Tuon, not dragging him into danger really, but their association and their marriage does not make it any easier for Mat to do what he needs to.  Who's to say his loyalties to Rand might not shift just a hair and put their whole world in danger?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">nicci24  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-01 19:09:09
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
I think everything fits pretty well, given what we know. Plus recall what Birgitte told Perrin:<br /><br /><i>&quot;They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be. They are not to be trusted, archer.&quot;</i> <br /><br />Given their semblance to &quot;snakes&quot; and &quot;foxes&quot; in a pseudo-human form, I think they more than qualify for being described as &quot;monstrous&quot;.<br /><br />I give it a thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-10 11:47:32
subject: <b>good thinking</b>
body:
I like it. The Aiel were also servants to the most powerful nation on earth, much like the Jews were slaves to one of the most powerful nations on earth at that time. Although the Aiel sevitude was voluntary, while the Jews were slaves. As far as a military power goes, Isreal is one of 7 (I believe) nuclear powers of the day, and has one of the most technilogicaly advanced armies in the world, right up there with the U.S. and Britian.


created: 2007-02-10 15:30:21
subject: <b>Nice one.....</b>
body:
I don't find many theories on this site that both interesting AND! plausible, but I think this one is pretty good actually. As an Anthro/Archaeology student I think this theory although not entirely fleshed (not a criticism!) would pass peer review easily. Also, it should be noted that the subject matter is intereseting and semi-relevant. This is where most theories fall flat on this site, they either are cocamami nonsense, or so long and overly-elaborate that it's just sad.


created: 2007-02-10 17:46:32
subject: <b>What Jordan said on the Aiel:</b>
body:
RJ: If on the other hand, you mean the source of the [Aiel] culture, in my mind, they contain some elements of the Apache, some of the Zulu, some of the Bedouin, and some elements of my own including that I rather liked the fact of making the desert dwellers blue-eyed and fair instead of the usual dark-eyed, dark-complexioned desert people. <br /><br />- from the Real World influences FAQ.<br /><br />So the Aiel are derived from more than one real world source. It's interesting that Jordan doesn't mention the Israelites, but sometimes he does leave a primary source out. Maybe he thinks it's obvious.<br /><br />As far as the Israelites go, I think this stanza from the Psalms of Solomon 17 is very reminiscent of the Aiel and their split from the Da&#8217;shain during the trials of the Breaking and their development into skilled and dangerous warriors:<br /><br />    And the children of the covenant in the midst of the mingled peoples surpassed them in evil.<br />    There was not among them one that wrought in the midst of Jerusalem mercy and truth.<br />    They that loved the synagogues of the pious fled from them,<br />    As sparrows that fly from their nest.<br />    They wandered in deserts that their lives might be saved from harm,<br />    And precious in the eyes of them that lived abroad was any that escaped alive from them&#8230;<br />    Over the whole earth were they scattered by lawless men.<br />    For the heavens withheld the rain from dropping upon the earth...<br /><br />Jordan has said that he deliberately gave the Aiel Irish colouring, but the parallel with the Irish is more extensive than this. In medieval and renaissance times, Gaelic Ireland was tribal, organised by clans and septs with intense competition and often warfare between clans and even septs of clans. Feuds and raids were also common, just as among the Aiel. Great private armies were necessary in Ireland as lordship rested on a system of protection and intimidation. In neither society was rulership inherited by the chief&#8217;s children. The Aiel wedding custom of the bridegroom and his kin having to fight off the bride&#8217;s kin are similar to medieval Irish wedding customs.<br /><br />The ancient system of ransoms and payments of Irish law was based on compensation and kin responsibility and is similar to Aiel ji&#8217;e&#8217;toh. If the guilty refused to pay compensation, the injured party could seize his property or that of his kin. This is equivalent to a gai&#8217;shain&#8217;s relatives offering themselves as gai&#8217;shain if their relative violates the rules of gai&#8217;shain.<br /><br />The Aiel have features of the U.S. plains dwelling and the desert dwelling Amerindians. They are tribal peoples with matrilineal descent important, as the Aiel are. The crops cultivated by the Aiel are crops of the Amerindians: t&#8217;mat (tomato), green beans, squash, zemai (corn/maize (scientific name: Zea mays)) and algode (Spanish word for cotton). Prior to the arrival of Europeans, there were no horses in the Americas, which is a parallel with the Aiel scorning to ride horses.<br /><br />The warriors of the plains Indians are organised into warrior societies and some tribes had women warriors. They had a system of graded honours in their warfare (taking coup) and, as with the Aiel, touching an enemy rated highly. Their traditional weapons are the bow and the lance; only the former is used by the Aiel.<br /><br />The desert survival techniques and customs of the Aiel are derived from the desert dwelling Indians. The dwellings at Cold Rocks Hold are basically Indian cliff houses.<br /><br />The Zulu of southern Africa, like the Aiel, are a tribal society with each clan having a chief supported by sub-chiefs (equivalent to sept chiefs). Men train to be warriors from an early age in this highly military society. Their traditional weapons consist of a cowhide shield, long spears (which the Aiel don&#8217;t use) and the assegai, a short stabbing spear.<br /><br />The Aiel are quite a mixture, really.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-02-10 23:13:36
subject: <b>Good theory but some major differences</b>
body:
The first and most glaring difference that I would put as vastly important is the domination of the Aiel in the waste and the less than dominant history of the Israelites.  In the history of the Israelites, they are constantly being defeated and thier society destroyed.  They then build it up only to have it all destroyed a century later.  The Egyptians had there way several times as did the Persians etc.  They clung to a relatively small peice of land while larger empires dominated around them and eventually swallowed them.  In Randland, the mightiest army in centuries attempts to enter and waste behind Hawking, arguably one of the greatest commanders of his age, and is rebuked and bloodied. I would not consider the Israelites of old on the same playing field with respect to power or military might as the Aiel.


created: 2007-02-11 04:19:10
subject: <b>like a tuareg</b>
body:
I always thought the Aiel reminded me of the Tuareg.<br /><br />See here for a picture:<br /><br />http://lexicorient.com/e.o/tuareg.htm<br /><br />That's kinda how I imagined Aiel to be.<br /><br />But, Jordan's quote disproves this theory, however interesting it may have been. I very very highly doubt that RJ would &quot;forget&quot; to omit something like the Israelites, or even not mention it because it is so obvious.


created: 2007-02-11 08:14:11
subject: <b>I like it, but...</b>
body:
Linda Sedai quite rightly pointed out that RJ himself did not credit the Israelites as a source of inspiration. <br />I am quite content to leave the Aiel as they are, ie a unique social entity that will have to come to grips with a past that is a complete antithesis to their current setup. For me this is one of the most fascinating aspects of the books and I look forward to seeing how RJ will have a fragment of a fragment of the Aiel saved. Will that fragment be the peace-loving Aiel of the past or the incomparable warriors of the present?<br />Even so, a nice theory well presented.


created: 2007-02-12 13:19:07
subject: <b>Culture is more than history.</b>
body:
Your theory is interesting &amp; well presented.  You identified some historical similarities that I had not thought of.<br /><br />As Linda Sedai pointed out, the Aiel are an amalgam of various cultures.  Their current culture looks most like the Apache &amp; Navaho peoples, but has elements from elsewhere.  You are correct that their <b>history</b> has similarities to the ancient Israelites.  But in my opinion, that's all it is, an historical similarity.  It's always possible that RJ had the ancient Israelites in mind when he wrote the Aiel history.  But it does not explain the Aiel culture today.


created: 2007-02-12 16:53:19
subject: <b>NICE!</b>
body:
Before reading this, I was fairly conviced that the Aiel were meant to resemble the Bedouin tribes of the Middle East. The type of desert was fairly similar, they were organized into tribes, clans, ect, they fought amongst themselves fairly often, and soon developed into the conquering based muslims known as the Ummayads, and the later coversion based Abbasid. However, the argument that you've made was quite convincing, and was supported much more thoroughly, and with much more precise evididence. Nice job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weaver of the Lace <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Guarder of the Blight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Swinger of the Great Axe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-14 05:11:55
subject: <b>It is interesting that Jordan</b>
body:
left out an obvious contributing source for the Aiel: the Fremen from Dune.<br /><br />When I first read The Great Hunt and then The Dragon Reborn this was the FIRST thought that came to mind: &quot;oh, they're a sort of Fremen&quot;<br /><br />Which of course Frank Herbert based upon the Bedouin.


created: 2007-02-17 22:13:33
subject: <b>Linda Sedai said it for me</b>
body:
But so much better.  I voted yes because this is very good work.  And there are so many other elements drawn from a Judeo-Christian historical morality and myth in the story that old Hebrew elements were bound to be there.<br /><br />But I had already encountered RJ's comments.<br /><br />Still, i applaud the contribution.


created: 2007-02-20 08:32:31
subject:
<b>I always figured the Aiel were...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
...based on the Fremen from Dune. But now that you point out the number of tribes, I have to say they are based on the Colonials from Battlestar Galactica!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-10 16:28:10
subject: <b>Aiel as Zulu</b>
body:
There's not too much to support this other than my own observations, but the Aiel seem to have some similarities to the Zulu.  <br /><br />For example, the Aiel fascination with using a spear/shield combination in battle.  The Zulu are famous for their use of &quot;amaklwa&quot;, i.e. shorter, stabbing spears (a.k.a assegai), which are used in conjunction with shields.<br /><br />Now, the Zulu are not a desert people, so clearly the &quot;may you find shade&quot; business is a product of that environment, but what about the greeting of &quot;I see you&quot;?<br /><br />In Zulu, to greet someone (like saying hi) is &quot;Sawubona&quot;, literally translated to &quot;I see you.&quot;<br /><br />I've thought about the other aspects - gai'shain, ji'e'toh, and there isn't really a connection.  The Zulu do have &quot;hlonipha&quot; which is sort of a code of ettiquette and behavior, but it doesn't necessarily go as far as ji'e'toh.<br /><br />Just some thoughts....


created: 2007-02-21 18:07:17
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
It all makes sense now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-22 10:02:26
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
WHy did they post this theory but not any of mine that were better written and actualy had a point to them<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lad, I'm the best damn Gleemen ever&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> --&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&quot;Shall i never know who killed Asmodean&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-22 18:40:26
subject: <b>This is silly...</b>
body:
and far from humorous...how did this get posted?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-23 04:34:04
subject: <b>Well I have a theory about that......</b>
body:
The theory is that no one actually runs wotmania it is just some longitudinal study of the internet browsing habits of the few literate individuals left in this country. All decisions i.e. theory selections are actually done by a computer running off a microprocessor stolen from Mir.


created: 2007-02-23 13:03:00
subject: <b>Not to be a dick...</b>
body:
I enjoy the occasional humorous theory, but the quality standard of WOTMania just took a big nose-dive with this being posted.  The biggest problem is that its not even humorous, let alone readable.  I feel dumber for having read it.  Shame on you admins for letting such a waste of kilobytes be posted on this site. Shame! Shame!<br /><br />In response I will attempt to post my own humorous theory about what the author had to do in order to get this piece of crap posted.  My best guess at this point is that it included 50 pounds of cottage cheese, 2 live gerbils, one dead gerbil, one extra large tube of Astroglide, and a healthy dose of sexual perversion.  Stay tuned for how I put it all together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-26 13:29:46
subject: <b>aww, i can't believe you've been so slated</b>
body:
lighten up people, the key word here is humorous...<i>hu-mor-ous</i><br /><br />rhymes with numerous<br /><br />it's okay siddy i found it...readable<br /><br /><br /><br />in parts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />i think people forget that this is on the back of other, only slightly better written theory material <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and that when the theory admins come to checking pending theories when they see such heavy weight names as Sidious, Etzel, LiTn or dare i say even *flashing lights* oooh-AHHH, Foxhead *flashing lights/smoke machine* they just rightly rubber stamp it through without needing to read it.<br /><br />to their detriment, i think, this time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-27 15:47:49
subject: <b>I, for one, was Amused</b>
body:
Well, I guess I'll stick my neck out and say that the whole idea made me chuckle.  It's not like it was very long, so it can't possibly have killed too many brain-cells anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One day I'll have a quote to put you all to shame.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-27 17:06:11
subject: <b>To each, his own....</b>
body:
The author, DreamStalker, and the admin that posted this thought it was humorous. So, I guess they can feel comfort in the fact they weren't laughing alone.<br /><br />For myself, not being a huge Star Warts fan, I was wondering if I had missed the punchline. <br /><br />I've found that jokes are never funny if you have to have them explained to you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-28 20:33:27
subject: <b>I wasn't</b>
body:
I was kinda interested at the title, since I have an opinion on that topic. I was disappointed that it was just a stupid prank. Just a waste of five minutes...


created: 2007-03-02 01:25:59
subject: <b>There is no punchline.</b>
body:
There is no point. There is no reasoning.<br /><br />I'd have been disgusted with this on the Message Board, let alone the Theory Post.<br /><br />At least http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=746&amp;Category=Humor was quick and bothered with some connections, so you can feel that the authour actually had a thought and went 'hey, this is ridiculous, but comical' and decided to share it with us. Won't make my favourites, but at least there was some thought put into it.<br /><br />This? Not so much. Like words were put in at random.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-03 11:21:31
subject: <b>my god it got posted</b>
body:
I can't believe they actually posted this.<br /><br />It was hilarious to me when i wrote it and even more hilarious now that I read it again, but what's even more entertaining are the responses!!<br /><br />My god there's like 1 theory a month...it's so boring at times. You guys should be thanking the admins that they at least posted something.<br /><br />Actually i didn't even realize I posted this. I read the title a month ago, forgetting I had posted it, and thought the topic was boring (I don't care about Aviendha's children).<br /><br />*pats self on the back*


created: 2007-03-06 13:07:53
subject: <b>humorous theroies aside</b>
body:
this one wasnt the best.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Val Hala sucks, trust me I've been there. Noone bathes...&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-07 06:14:22
subject: <b>don't worry</b>
body:
don't worry. the next theory i post will actually be serious, and will not, to my chagrine, include any star wars quotes.


created: 2007-03-23 14:42:28
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
This is so insane it gotta be true! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-31 23:25:25
subject: <b>Lighten up people</b>
body:
I for one thought it funny. *attempts to shield cleantoe from the ravenous horde of ungrateful louts* Quickly! Write your next one before they tear you to pieces for no reason : )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Daishar<br />AKA<br />Aric Cosamaru<br />Proud Asha'man of the Grey Tower role play site</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-22 20:33:25
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Clearly you are a total nerd with too much time on your hands.  That may be the worst waste of my time ever.


created: 2007-06-18 21:37:37
subject: <b>I liked it</b>
body:
I think it's funny. If it's such a waste of brain cells then why are ppl still posting stuff about it? It would b hilarious if some noob seriously agreed with it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-21 23:34:15
subject: <b>I voted no because the theory doesn't explain how colors supposed to affect the rings</b>
body:
There is no explanation of it. If we assume that the color affects it, then we must at least have explanation how the color on the ring supposed to do that.<br /><br />Also, we are living in the Computers Age and we know that &quot;blue&quot; color actually have many different &quot;values&quot;, &quot;tones&quot; or whatever. Do you mean that a particular frequnecy of the light that we see as blue, or do you mean the range of the frequencies? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-03-22 09:09:19
subject: <b>I voted yes</b>
body:
The theory sounds plausible, and the passages in the book do suggest that the colors matter for the dream ter'angreal. Not too sure about the significance of the color brown, but thumbs up for stating the meaning of the color red. I always wondered what the hell happened to Elayne because of that rod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-22 09:57:33
subject: <b>I think you're on the wrong track</b>
body:
Jordan is heavily inspired by T'ai-chi or Taeguk (The Supreme Ultimate). The source of existence in WOT is represented by Taeguks most common symbol (the famous Yin-Yang symbol).<br />This symbol stresses the complementarity between Saidin &amp; Saidar (the same counts for Yin &amp; Yang)<br /><br />What most people don't know is that another (ancient) symbol of T'ai-chi is used to represent the dream ring (or maybe even the Unseen World itself).<br />The only difference is that THIS representation of Taeguk  stresses the dynamic interaction between Yin &amp; Yang.<br /><br />I think Jordan based the Unseen World on the Sam-Taeguk, wich stands for three states of being: Heaven, Earth and Man. Heaven represents the spiritual, Earth is the physical and Man is the intermediary who embodies both the spiritual and physical. The colours used to represent these three factors are purple, orange, and yellow.<br />Jordan changed these to blue, red &amp; brown. <br />The Unseen World also appears to made up of three 'layers/ dimensions'. (see Unseen World theory on Theoryland)<br /><br />So I disagree on the colors representing aspects like fear, knowledge, desire or something. The colors each represent a different dimension of the whole that is the Unseen World. <br /><br />The 'true' Dream Ring taps into all three 'layers/dimensions' to enter The Unseen World in the flesh (=as a whole). The copies only use two dimensions, and thus you can never actually 'be' there as a whole.<br /><br />Compare it to watching your tv screen watching a movie and pressing your fingers against the screen (2d and touching it lightly) and actually taking part in the movie (3d).<br /><br />My two cents.


created: 2007-03-22 10:46:19
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I have never thought about it that way before, but it all makes sense. I liked the connection between the color brown, the ring, and knowledge. Since these rings were made at or before the time of the formation of the ajahs, it stands to reason that the ajah devoted to knowledge would choose that color accordingly. However, the theory gets a bit weak when you think about the color blue. Is the blue ajah one of fear? Hmmm. <br /><br />In any case, good job. Its just good to see a new theory here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-22 11:48:58
subject: <b>Huh...?</b>
body:
@yooper;<br /><br />I think you contradict yourself atleast two times there.<br />1; Brown never represented 'Knowledge' when the Ring was forged.<br />2; Suppose Brown did represent 'Knowledge', how would 'Blue' represent fear? (or 'negativety' as stated in the theory)<br />You even say this yourself, then why cling to it?<br /><br />I think the five colors used to represent the 5 different elements of the One Power (Earth, Water, Air, Fire and Spirit). <br />Over time, the colors that represented the elements were used by the Channeling females to represent their group (ajah). <br />The current Ajah system has totally destroyed what it means to be a true &quot;Aes Sedai&quot;. They are no longer &quot;Servants of all&quot;, but a caricature. They  distorted the essence of being a true Aes Sedai by exxagerating one aspect of it. <br />The only &quot;Servant of all&quot; left, is the Amyrlin Seat, since -in name- she is of no Ajah and of all. <br /><br />Anyway, on topic; <br />I think the colors represent &quot;body, mind and spirit&quot;.<br /><br />These three define life and 'life' is the essence of the Wheel. To be fully in the Unseen World, you need all three.<br />


created: 2007-03-22 12:41:07
subject: <b>I voted yes</b>
body:
I don't know whether the theory is right, but I still voted yes because it FELT right. I am sure that the three colours are relevant. Whether they relate wholly or in part to Ajah colours is a different maatter. But the supposition that they each represent a different aspect, which when twined together give a whole is I think absolutely right. The shape of the ring is also vital; the edge that curves around on itself surely represents the unending nature of the wheel, which has no beginning or end. Good theory.


created: 2007-03-22 12:45:19
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
... but I'm not going to believe that brown stands for knowledge on the basis of an Ajah colour. Besides, knowledge has little to do with the Dreamworld.<br /><br />I do like your evidence for the blue, however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-22 16:02:36
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I've always thought that Elayne needed to finish the dream ter'angreal in tel-arand'rhiod.  Maybe she needed to link them to the place more strongly or something.<br /><br />Anyways I'm not sure if I agree with the theory or not.  To test your theory I looked up the FAQ on different ter'angreals , especially those linked to the world of dreams.<br /><br />The Accepted Arches are silver.  If your theory was true then they should be blue as the ter'angreal makes the person entering face her greatest fears.<br /><br />The Aes Sedai Oval Ring is a shifting mixture of silver, gold, green and blue which, when activated, look white as they are changing color so fast.  This may support your theory.  I'm not creative enough to see how.<br /><br />The twisted doorways to the Finns are red.  This could possibly support your theory as in one doorway three desires are granted and the other three questions are answered so possibly...<br /><br />Dream ter'angreal (with known colors): A rod of smooth clear crystal, a figurine of an unclothed woman in alabaster, a clear amber plaque.<br /><br />I would say that colors in themselves are not important except to show that Elayne was not able to accurately duplicate the ring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-22 19:04:06
subject: <b>I always thought...</b>
body:
That it required a Man and a Woman working together to make a fully-working model. I like the blue color theory you have going, but I don't agree with most of the rest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-22 22:38:58
subject: <b>agree with Gher</b>
body:
I think the colors matter, but I don't necessarily buy your explanation.  On a similar point, I agree with Gher that Elayne will never be able to produce a tri-color ring without the help of a man.  That still doesn't explain the significance of the colors though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-23 03:30:54
subject: <b>title</b>
body:
All your points seem reasonable and valid, except for at the very end, blue meaning negative and red meaning positive just seems a bit of a stretch.


created: 2007-03-23 12:35:56
subject: <b>Yes to the general idea, but hold off on some of the details.</b>
body:
The fundamental part of your theory that the colors are related to 3 different aspects of the dreamworld, plus blue being the color given off by nightmares makes sense.  It may be why the ter'angreal don't work.  Your theory does not explain <b>why</b> Elayne hasn't yet made a fully functional ring.<br /><br />As for the significance of the other colors, I thinks it's all just speculation right now.  Although I'd say your guesses at least have some logic behind them.


created: 2007-03-23 22:06:30
subject: <b>Good thinking</b>
body:
I think you've probably got a good part of the answer reasoning from very little information.<br /><br />With that in mind, I think you've done remarkably well, even if the answer isn't 100 percent correct, much less incomplete.<br /><br />Thank you for sharing your thoughts.


created: 2007-03-24 18:18:10
subject: <b>Agrees with most of the others....</b>
body:
I think you're on the right track, but lacking definitive evidence. The explanation you provided for the blue color seems logical, and I tend to agree with that, but tying in the brown with the Ajah is probably way off base. (Present day Ajah's are vastly different than their AoL counterparts/origins.)<br /><br />Good job offering up a possible explanation, just the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-27 09:13:36
subject: <b>The wiring of the dream ring</b>
body:
Like many of the people who have commented above, I like the reasoning behind this theory, even if there isn't enough evidence (yet) for it to be conclusive. I particularly like the proposed link between blue and the negative aspect of dreams. This leads my mind to think of the three colours of the dream ring as comparable to the three colours of a plug's wiring - perhaps the brown colour is required to 'earth' the flow of the other two.


created: 2007-03-23 08:11:57
subject: <b>Could explain why Callador was flawed...</b>
body:
They used a tained young man, and the sword wasn't working as intended.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You were just taking a basic personality test, and you chose to matched against men. After some serious number crunching, the personality test determined that you are most like Logain.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-23 08:55:07
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
This seems to be a pretty reasonable conclusion although I would point out that ter'angreal production (outside of Seanchan anyway), which we know can be accomplished without the opposing gender, didn't survive the breaking either.  This said, I personally believe that the power drawing fail-safe we see in angreal and sa'angreal is a sort of reversed, flexible shield composed of both saidar and saidin which is drawn by the object itself.  This would be somewhat akin to what we see happening when the Bowl of the Winds is used, but its reversed so no one can actually see the weave. Not sure why both powers would need to be used to make this shield, but it just seems right to me.  In any case, I would think a man would have to be used during the creation of the angreal in order make it harness saidin when it is used. <br /><br />On the first comment, you may be right about Callandor's flaw, but I was under the impression that the making of Callandor was already completed and the men were needed simply to help create the weave holding Callandor in the Stone.  Hard to know for sure if either or both are correct.  However, the whole taint magnifying effect Callandor has would seem to point to some sort of corruption in its creation.  Too bad we don't know exactly how angreal are created huh? But then again, if we did we wouldn't be having this discussion anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-23 16:20:31
subject: <b>Actually that is something else I want to go into Callandor</b>
body:
Lanfear's comment in the Shadow Rising about it being the greatest weapon <i>we</i> ever made is suspicious. I imagine the Shadow was making <i>angreal</i> as well as the Light. Such a weapon could very well have been captured before it was completed as the Shadow tried to do with the CK.<br /><br />It would make sense that it was unfinished due to the Taint...and another point I forget to mention is that Callandor works fine in a linked circle. Thus emphasizing my point on <i>saidin</i>/<i>saidar</i> being needed for &lt;/i&gt;angreal&lt;/i&gt; of the opposite gender.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-23 19:52:50
subject: <b>Something else I thought of</b>
body:
What is the difference between an angreal and a sa'angreal.  The AS of this age seem to consider them completely separate, to the point where names have been created to differentiate between them.  Does this not seem rather arbritary to anyone else? That is, where is a line where an angreal is powerful enough to be classified as a sa'angreal? I wonder if it has anything to do with the methods used in creating them.  I know I stated earlier that I thought both types would require both sides of the OP, but thinking about it more, maybe that is the difference.  Angreal can be created using only one side of the power, while the much more powerful sa'angreal require both sides working together.  This would fit well with my 'flexible shield' theory about the power draw fail-safe (it would need to be stronger than a non-differentiated circle could create) as well as the oft-cited quote about the greatest accomplishments using both men and women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-24 17:39:33
subject: <b>It makes sense</b>
body:
Still since we know so little about the making, and just what they can do we need more solid evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-26 11:14:40
subject: <b>mabe.......... mabe not</b>
body:
in book ten. when casudane and the group are by the spine of the world, at the old lord guys house before logain and bashera show up. she is comenting on her hair ter'angreal and angreal, saying they were made during the breaking when men were mad. and you could use the help.   <br /> mabe they were made by man and woman before all the men were mad, mabe not.


created: 2007-03-27 07:19:14
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Or maybe it is a talent that was lost due to men being killed/gentled or just going mad and not adding to the genepool. That is the reason that channelers are getting weaker and fewer in number so it could also be the reason for another lost talent.


created: 2007-03-27 10:14:10
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I don&#180;t think so,women did they own angreals and vice versa<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well, any person that you fear<br />And anything that is severe<br />And any place you won&#180;t go near<br />You see they&#180;re nouns, you see they&#180;re nouns<br /><i>Carai an caldazar, bitch!</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-28 14:48:24
subject: <b>Cleansing the taint</b>
body:
When Rand cleansed the taint on Saidin he made a tube of saidar to direct it, what if that is how Angreals work?


created: 2007-03-29 04:27:00
subject: <b>I have to disagree....</b>
body:
For one thing, we know that men and women did try working together after the taint, as they created the clean pool of saidin in the Eye.<br /><br />And, from WH, With the Choedan Kal, we get this from Demandred's pov:<br /><br /><i>&quot;So. Unless someone in this accursed Age had discovered yet another unknown ability, al'Thor must have acquired a device, a ter'angreal, that could detect a man channeling. <b>From what he knew of what people now called the Breaking, after he himself had been imprisoned at Shayol Ghul, any woman who knew how to make ter'angreal would have been trying to create one that would do that.</b> In war, the other side always came up with something you did not expect, and you had to counter it. He had always been good at war. First, he needed to get closer.&quot;</i><br /><br />Demandred is referring to Cadsuane's matching set of angreal/ter'angreal, created by women during the Breaking in response to the mad male channelers. Nynaeve also has a set much like it, that does about the same things. <br /><br />We also know that male channelers suffering from the taint sought refuge in Steddings, and thanked the Ogier with the gift of the Talisman of Growing, a ter'angreal. It is also fairly well accepted that female channelers also created the sad bracelets, (another ter'angreal), in an attempt to control the men suffering from the taint. And of course, there is also the a'dam, created in Seanchan by more female channelers, and the huge ter'angreal in Far Madding.<br /><br />Creating angreal or other objects of the Power is a Talent, and we must conclude that no one was able to pass on the testing for this Talent, or find a suitable student to pass the knowledge on to, some time after the Breaking. No doubt Elayne has this Talent, and would be able to create more objects if she had someone to teach her instead of fumbling her way through the process of learning. It is also obvious that none of the Forsaken have the Talent, else they would be making some for their own use. Almost certainly Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage would likely cooperate if it would buy them an advantage over the others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-29 22:06:46
subject: <b>what about a more simple approach</b>
body:
i don't usually make comments because i usually forget something or other, but what about a more simplistic explanation? <br /><br />i don't have any real evidence to support this other than Elayne being the first person in many thousands of years to make any sort of *angreal, but...<br />it would stand to reason that the making of angreal required some significant measure of strength and skill...it would stand to reason that Aes Sedai who are strong and skilled would be off fighting or doing something covert and clever while others, less useful on the front lines, would be, well, at home...and unfortunately too many of those with the knowledge, strength, and skill to make them were lost to war...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-31 22:23:48
subject: <b>couple things</b>
body:
Meadcd: you don't usually make comments?  I don't usually like to be a jackass, but honestly, you should stick to the trend. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ryan of Andor: I think it's a very interesting idea, though I'm not really sure whether I agree with it.  I did have a lot of trouble deciphering the theory, though.  Work on the grammar.  It should't take five minutes to understand three sentences.  And by the way, &lt;sarcasm&gt; do you think you could use the word 'given' a few more times? &lt;/sarcasm&gt;


created: 2007-04-01 21:00:20
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
An idea that I had while ago was that possibly, no one can make an angreal (or sa'angreal) for his/her own gender.  Men make angreals for women and women make angreals for men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-10 04:10:05
subject: <b>I find meadcds suggestion perfectly reasonable.</b>
body:
And would suggest those who don't usually like to be jackasses stick with THAT trend. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-15 06:48:36
subject: <b>Sa'angreal vs Angreal</b>
body:
The difference which you're missing is the need for a buffer. An angreal draws power without the -need- for a buffer, whereas a sa'angreal without a buffer would overload anyone attempting to access it.


created: 2007-07-03 07:25:59
subject: <b>linking</b>
body:
Elayne says angreal are used in a similar way as a link, so it makes sense to me that women have to be atleast part of the process for ALL angreal since men cannot form there own links.


created: 2007-12-31 07:45:32
subject: <b>Linking Men</b>
body:
Surely a ter'angreal that draws upon saidar could be used to allow 2 men to link maybe. If it drew the true source and channeled lets say fire arrows could a male use the ter'angreal and link through it with a man then control the flows to other stuff?<br /><br />If you imagine a women/man has a hole that is pressed against saidar/saidin and draws through it the size of the hole is effected by her/his strength in the one power. Let us assume this as a crude explanation. So an angreal is used by reaching for the source THROUGH the angreal thus it comes between the channeler and the source OR it opens a seperate path that is larger to the source and power is drawn through 2 holes one natural one from the angreal. If we assume when Rand and Ny cleansed the source it was nessecary to use the untainted saidar to touch saidin and form a conduit then saidin would be nessecary to form angreal as they touch one half of the true source. also if Saidin AND saidar were used it could be possible for a man OR woman to use the resulting angreal.<br /><br />Men however are not equal to women so it could be both saidin and saidar angreal require saidar to be formed or vice versa. somehow to me the raw power of saidn seems a more likely creator of angreal but that could be myth. also when saidar and saidin are linked and the maximum of sisters to one man are present a man must be the focus this only applies to the circles with 72(ma<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> 2(one man one woman) or 14(1 man 13 women)this restriction could mean a circle of 14 with a man directing creates angreal or 1-1 or 72. on the other hab=nd all combinations in between with a woman leading could.<br /><br />ALL of this pure speculation and i would be delighted if someone bothers to check my rantings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-05-18 05:27:21
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I have always just thought that the Talent of making ter'angreal was lost during the breaking, because all those who could died, or didn't find anyone to who they could teach. It's possible that those who have studied ter'angreal since then have had some skill in doing just that. And we don't know for certain that no one has been able to make anything, with Aes Sedai being all secretive. But most seem to have met pretty nasty endings, like being burned out or dying. <br /><br />Let's face. Elayne has just been lucky that she hasn't stumbled across a ter'angreal that stills the user immediately, yet.


created: 2009-01-13 23:59:22
subject: <b>Good point...</b>
body:
I do think that whoever said that the opposite gender is needed to make angreal was correct.  In addition to the information cited above, I would also like to draw your attention to the Healing of Severing.<br /><br />Nynaeve Heals Logain's Severing, and he is at full strength.  However, the same is not true when she Heals the Severing of Siuan and Leane.<br /><br />OTOH, Damer Flinn Heals the Severing of many of the Aes Sedai Severed at Dumai's Wells, and in all of the commentary about it afterwards, there is no mention in a drop in strength anywhere.<br /><br />This shows that Men must heal the Severing of Women, and Women of Men, to avoid complications.<br /><br />This would also explain the rarity of angreal in the Third Age, and why the Forsaken don't simply make their own.  No Forsaken would trust a Forsaken of the opposite gender enough to make them an angreal.<br /><br />An admitted weakness to this idea is that Asmodean, if he knew this, would have told Rand in self-preservation.  It's possible that, with this knowledge, Moirane, Egwene, or another female channeler would create angreal for Rand's use.


created: 2009-01-25 16:08:31
subject: <b>They lost pretty much all sorts of knowledge</b>
body:
Good points admittedly, regarding angreal and sa'angreal. They may well require both sexes channeling while linked. It's just a footnote though, because it just wasn't the making of angreal and sa'angreal that got lost. Several other kinds of knowledge got lost. Complex weaves were forgotten as well. So it just isn't the making of angreal specifically that got lost.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-28 08:43:42
subject: <b>Not impossilbe imho</b>
body:
thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You were just taking a basic personality test, and you chose to matched against men. After some serious number crunching, the personality test determined that you are most like Logain.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-28 09:21:57
subject: <b>missing thread</b>
body:
I have to disagree with this one. When you die in any other fashion other then Balefire, your thread is still a part of the pattern waiting to be spun out again. We have read that when one is Balefired that his/her thread is burned out of the pattern. So when the DO trys to pull that thread and get a fix on the soul there is nothing there but a dead end. He would have to reach back in time and stop the actual BF from happening, and if he could do that then he would just reach back and stop the hundred companions, or stop the happenings at Shadar Logoth in WH.


created: 2007-03-28 10:26:16
subject: <b>I kinda agree</b>
body:
From KODs we know that Halima(Balthamel) is the one that is ordered Slayer (opening into a snowy forest glade?).  Also, from his/her point of view in KOD dreams, we know that &quot;someone else was playing at her games&quot; (I don't remember the exact quote, it has been a couple of months since I read it).    <br /><br />Anyways, I think Be'lal could have been reincarnated, but I don't think he is pulling Slayers strings.<br /><br />


created: 2007-03-29 18:54:29
subject: <b>Why else would Jordan add his point about balefire?</b>
body:
Be'lal was balefired, but like Jordan said if the balefire used was small then the Dark One can still grab the soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-29 21:03:27
subject: <b>Disagree wholeheartly</b>
body:
Before our Wondergirls, Moiraine was one of the top five living Aes Sedai. Even though she states she can burn out several seconds, that I think is very large in terms of snatching the soul for DO.<br /><br />I beleive the comment by RJ is taken out of context. I beleive he made the comment to stop rumors and theories that even the very small amount of balefire is capable of permanently killing the bad guys. For example, tiny little miniscule like a pin balefire wouldn't be enough. What RJ has actually done is reassuring us that channler needs to be sufficient strength. And what is better example for us than Moiraine - one of the top five living Aes Sedai?


created: 2007-03-29 22:19:47
subject: <b>to Skeeve</b>
body:
Just because Moiraine is relatively strong does not mean that she can channel great amounts of balefire. The FO are strong for their age, but they are unbelievably strong in the current time. Also, not many sisters can even create gateways. Balefire is even harder to do, so that not many sisters, without a ter'angreal, could even dream of making balefire at all. It's so hard to do, the AoL had to make a ter'angreal to do it.<br /><br />As for the theory, I think it's possible, but I still need to mull the idea over some. Still, I gave thumbs up on a good catch and creativity.


created: 2007-03-30 00:06:17
subject: <b>curious as to the DO's thinking</b>
body:
If Be'lal was meant to be a safeguard on Moridin, then why did Ishamael become nae'blis over Demandred? And why did he send SH to be his enforcer? Also, would the DO want a FO with a vendetta against Rand who would kill him despite Moridin's warnings about when and how Rand can be killed?<br /><br />As for Slayer's patron and the sending of Trollocs through the ways, I think that other theories explain these occurrences more accurately.<br /><br />However, I still like your theory and agree that RJ's statement allows for your hypothesis. I just don't think that we'll see Be'lal amongst the living.


created: 2007-03-30 00:30:41
subject: <b>to i bore the hole</b>
body:
I'm not arguing the Moiraine can channel &quot;great&quot; amount. I'm arguing that Moiraine channeled NOT very small amount per RJ that DO can still recover the soul.<br /><br />In order to prove the theory, the author should prove that &quot;several seconds&quot; that Moiraine can channel is indeed the &quot;very small amount&quot; that RJ mentioned. I doubt that very much. For example, light can travel more than million killometers in 4 seconds. And that's a very very long time for most of the particles in the universe.<br /><br />Once again, let's not confuse &quot;great amount&quot; argument with &quot;very small amount&quot; mentioned by the RJ.<br /><br />And let's not forget that Moiraine would have been the strongest Aes Sedai in the Rebel camp, which is not short of Travellers. So gateway argument does not fly here, I think.


created: 2007-03-30 03:56:54
subject: <b>Never agree</b>
body:
Moiraine Balefired Be'lal, removing him from the timeline and therefore out of anyone's reach. No matter how short the time delay is, it's still out of time. No point arguing about the strength of the channeler because if the channeler wasn't strong enough to have a large enough balefire effect, they probably wouuldn't be able to from the weave in the first place.<br />I've seen this type of theory several times and I will never agree to it. Even if RJ said that your theory is correct, I will still not agree as it would not make sense at all. Be'lal was taken out of the time line BEFORE he died.<br />An analogy (a poor one) would be that if someone had their throat cut, you could sew it up and they'd live. Balefire is cutting their throat to the extent that their head comes off, no way to fix that. Even if someone weak chopped their head off...Their head is still off!<br />&quot;yeah but he's only slightly been taken out of the timeline...&quot; but he's taken out of the time line!!!


created: 2007-03-30 18:52:23
subject: <b>Mystery man</b>
body:
I voted no.  I think that the the mystery man is Taim.  That explains everything much easier.  Otherwise, at the end of the books, Bel'al pops out of nowhere and has to have a really long explanation about how everything that we've known about balefire has been wrong all along.  Not RJ's style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-30 19:44:16
subject: <b>What of the angreal?</b>
body:
At this point, Moirane still had her angreal. I'm pretty certain she would have used it when she confronted a Forsaken. Also, I agree with Skeeve. Very little time need not mean few seconds.


created: 2007-03-30 21:34:55
subject: <b>It's possible....</b>
body:
What I find a little funny is that so many of the posts above mine apparently don't read all of the theory, or they simply fail to believe what RJ, the author, said in his very own words:<br /><br /><i>&quot;thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured <b>unless the amount of balefire used is very small</b>.&quot;</i><br /><br />Moiraine tells Rand in tFoH that the most time her small amount of Balefire can remove is a few seconds, which translates into barely having the strength to form the weave at all. <br /><br />Taking into consideration that we haven't seen balefire used that much, and that RJ was possibly trying to point to something with the above statement, only Moiraine's small balefire weave would qualify.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-31 03:49:56
subject: <b>I disagree as well</b>
body:
In the series it's clearly said that someone who is balefired won't be transmigrated. <br /><br />Sure, RJ said later that under certain circumstances it's possible for the DO to still transmigrate a person who was killed with weak balefire. But a normal reader, who doesn't read all what RJ says outside of the story (like we &quot;more hardcore fans&quot; do), would just think that a balefire death of a Forsaken means he won't turn up. <br /><br />Therefore I seriously doubt that RJ would suddenly reveal in the last book of the series that Be'lal was brought back, and let some character explain that Moiraine's balefire was actually too weak and that thus Be'lal of course could be transmigrated. That would seem like a very cheap deus ex machina explanation for such a unnecessary twist in the eyes of a normal reader.<br /><br />Besides that, I don't buy that the DO would trust a transmigrated Be'lal more than Moridin. <br /><br />For reasons I often expressed in the past, I also don't buy that Taim is anyone else than Taim, that Be'lal was Slayer's patron (it was Osan'gar, IMO), or that he was the &quot;Sammael&quot; who sent the Shadowspawn army (that was most likely Graendal, IMO).


created: 2007-03-31 07:21:18
subject: <b>The DO himself</b>
body:
says that even he cannot bring you back one balefired. I dont have the exact quote, but its something about dieing the final death, and Rhavin's fate. Once a thread is removed it's just gone. Jordan's comments are often vague and taken out of context, cause he likes messing with us I think, so I would look to the books for answers to this theory, and the books are pretty cut and dry on this subject. Also at that point there are what 2 seals broken? How much could the DO really do at this point, ressurecting a balefired forsaken, if even possible at all, surely is tougher then an normal death. No after all the talk I say balefire is the final death. End of story. (so to speak)


created: 2007-03-31 15:11:52
subject: <b>If a balefire soul was bought back</b>
body:
It would ruin the entire series for me. It is a very intricate, planned and complex story, most of which seems logical (following it's own laws of physics). Bringing back a balefired soul would undermine everything that the series has portrayed and would be such a cheap loop hole, one that is most unnecessary. It would make no sense. All the theories would be ruined for me and would be a waste of everyone's time as it would seem RJ would make up things as he went along, changing things willy-nilly.


created: 2007-03-31 15:43:37
subject: <b>A little clarification</b>
body:
First off, I didn't say that I personally agreed with the theory, just that it is possible. In my opinion, I find it unlikely that this scenario is actually true. <br /><br />Second, the statement by RJ is not something that was taken out of context. It was a written response from the man himself, an answer to one of the questions that were sent in to him from readers, through the publisher, Tor, and posted on the internet. (Copies of these questions and answers can be found at our FAQ here at Wotmania.)<br /><br />Third, there is a lot of misconception about balefire. It is not the final death that many readers seem to think it is. If you are balefired, your soul is not removed forever. It will be spun out again, but, under normal circumstances, it would be in a newborn child, given a fresh start and effectively taken out of current events, with no memory of it's past lives.<br /><br />Also, given what RJ said about the DO having a limited amount of time to transmigrate souls, one has to wonder what the &quot;final&quot; death might really be. It seems the DO can only hold a soul for so long, so it would probably return to a &quot;soul pool&quot; after that time has elapsed. The final death may only be a threat, or, achieved by the fulfillment of the DO destroying the Wheel and successfully ending what the Creator started.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-31 17:08:44
subject: <b>To LitN</b>
body:
&quot;Third, there is a lot of misconception about balefire.&quot;<br /><br />I didn't realise you knew the absolute truth about Balefire, perhaps you expand further on your deep knowledge.<br /><br /><br />&quot;It is not the final death that many readers seem to think it is.&quot;<br /><br />Again, your inside knowledge on everything amazes me. Perhaps you are RJ himself? Has anyone seem LitN and RJ together?<br /><br />&quot;If you are balefired, your soul is not removed forever. It will be spun out again, but, under normal circumstances, it would be in a newborn child, given a fresh start and effectively taken out of current events, with no memory of it's past lives.&quot;<br /><br />So your soul goes on forever but you'd have no memory or knowledge of your previous life? That sounds the same as dying to me... Your life has ended, even if your soul carries on, who cares? With your knowledge being wiped at the start of all lives, it's the same as death.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2007-03-31 22:21:43
subject: <b>a quick note on balefire</b>
body:
The DO says that he who betrays him shall die the final death, speaking of Asmodean (this could refer to non-transmigration or to a form of transmigration into the DO's prison and a sort of hell; this in no way specifies balefire). He then says that Rahvin died and he cannot save him from balefire, that even he cannot step out of time.<br /><br />This is quite ambiguous and misleading, but in no way concludes that balefire burns out a thread completely. The part about stepping out of time lends to the notion that there are limits. Given that balefire works backwards from the moment of impact, it is not out of reason to accept that a soul could be transmigrated within  a window as RJ suggests. Remember, the danger of balefire is not so much that a thread of a person gets burned away as it is the fact that they are removed from that section of the pattern earlier, and their actions are snipped away, causing a ripple effect. RJ keeps telling us that it is this ripple effect that can be dngerous. Asmodean comes back from the dead, as does Mat and Aviendha. The dead coming back to life sounds pretty serious to me. Perhaps it is our preconceived notions of a complete nullifier that taint our ability to know RJ's concept of balefire.


created: 2007-03-31 23:02:29
subject: <b>boaks8...your head needs work</b>
body:
Do you not realize that RJ wrote the series? You are saying that a blunt, but explainable quote from the DO carries more weight than a quote from the man who also wrote the previous quote...that's solid.  Drastically different circumstances between Rhavin's death and Be'lal's death.  The main difference being that Rand was at the trigger, so to speak, rather than Moiraine, in Rhavin's death scene.  Think about this.  Moiraine was really strong.  Elayne was much stronger.  Nynaeve's strength was like a bonfire next to a candle compared with Elayne.  And Rand was much stronger than Nynaeve.  And on top of that, he was pissed off, which means no quarter for Rhavin.  He pumped everything he had into that balefire.  As he is several orders of magnitude above Moiraine in strength, the effects of this were much more apparent (i.e. people alive that Rhavin killed) than were those due to Moiraine's performance.  The DO couldn't save Rhavin from Rand's balefire, but that was like all the lights in the city of Houston, whereas Moiraines was like a little incandescant bulb.  Therefore (assuming that RJ is still in control of Randland, and it has not in fact taken on a life of its own), RJ is correct concerning the strength of balefire from which the DO can transmitigate a soul.  I'm not saying it definitely happened, but it is clearly not impossible, as you seem to think.<br /><br />Oh yeah, and Ryan of Andor, nice idea.  It would certainly be a good explanation for the Sammael character.


created: 2007-04-01 02:02:50
subject: <b>Re: Vind alOo</b>
body:
<i>&quot;Third, there is a lot of misconception about balefire.&quot;</i><br /><br /><b>I didn't realise you knew the absolute truth about Balefire, perhaps you expand further on your deep knowledge.</b><br /><br /><i>&quot;It is not the final death that many readers seem to think it is.&quot;</i><br /><br />This is from the WOTFAQ:<br /><br /><b>When a person is balefired, can he be reborn?</b><br /><br /><i>The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does &quot;burning one's thread from the Pattern&quot; mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 199<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />:<br /><br />Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.</i><br /><br />That was from 1998, and RJ elaborated on the issue about balefire/transmigration in the QotW response in 2005, as I, and the theory's author have provided.<br /><br /><b>Again, your inside knowledge on everything amazes me. Perhaps you are RJ himself? Has anyone seem LitN and RJ together?</b><br /><br />Sarcasm? I certainly don't claim to know everything about WoT. I do keep up on RJ's interviews, his Blog posts, and participate in discussions about the story here at the Wotmania MB. (In addition, one of those QotW was submitted by me, and answered by RJ. So yeah, I'm an avid fan.) Plus, my &quot;inside knowledge&quot; as you call it, is considered &quot;common-knowledge&quot; among the posters at the WotMB, as well as other WoT-related websites.  <br /><br />(Oh. And, no, I am not RJ. But, if you will click on my name it will bring up a profile pic of me standing beside him and his wife at Comic-Con in San Diego in 2005. That should answer your question about us being seen together.) <br /><br /><i>&quot;If you are balefired, your soul is not removed forever. It will be spun out again, but, under normal circumstances, it would be in a newborn child, given a fresh start and effectively taken out of current events, with no memory of it's past lives.&quot;</i><br /><br /><b>So your soul goes on forever but you'd have no memory or knowledge of your previous life? That sounds the same as dying to me... Your life has ended, even if your soul carries on, who cares? With your knowledge being wiped at the start of all lives, it's the same as death.</b><br /><br />It's called &quot;reincarnation&quot;, the belief in the eternal life of the soul, and a very basic part of the story which the characters take for granted. Dying the &quot;final death&quot;, would mean never being reborn.<br /><br />BTW, I am trying very hard to be nice and add constructively to the discussion. But, if you want to continue in the same vein as your last post, bring it on. However, you might want to have some burn medication on hand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-01 06:32:49
subject: <b>a couple things</b>
body:
i bore a hole, I agree with you completely, glad someone debunked those other assertions about the meaning of the final death. <br /><br />nettles, I've read a couple of your comments and you need to chill.  There is no need to be sarcastic. Comments are typically meant to be contructive criticism and/or elaborations on points of agreement or disagreement.  If you must be a jackass, you ought to check your own submissions before you post them.  In this case, I'll save you the trouble and tell you what an order of magnitude actually means. One order of magnitude is ten times i.e., a measurement of 10 is an order of magnitude greater than a measurement of 1. You can't seriously be suggesting that Rand is 100-1000 times (several implies at least 2 in my book) more powerful than Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-01 12:54:40
subject: <b>Lol, LitN</b>
body:
Got my mittens of fire resistance +3 on, flame as much as you want, I can take it.<br /><br />My main point alongside my arsing about was that if someone dies and their soul is reborn, but you have no knowledge of your former life (even if it is the belief of Randland, or even some people in real life), I count that the same as dying. If the soul can be caught and bought back into a body with memories, then that is not dying.<br /><br /><br />Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.<br /><br /><br />Since a Balefired soul can't be bought back by the DO into a new body, I view that as being dead. Who cares about reincarnation, about as stupid as the people in Logan's Run. The paragraph above destroys the theory. Who cares about being born again if you can't remember your life or anything previous?


created: 2007-04-02 03:17:21
subject: <b>Semantics maybe</b>
body:
It really boils down to how you view immortality. The Creator already provided for it, in His own way, and the DO convinces followers he will do the same. His methods are just vastly different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-02 14:44:21
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
I do not think this is accurate.  It is just way too much of a complication this late in the story.  There already allot of threads that need to be wrapped up, not to mention the last battle.  <br /><br />If Be'lal was going to re-enter the story, RJ would have done it in an earlier book.<br /><br />The mystery man is Demodred or Aran'gar<br />


created: 2007-04-02 23:33:47
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
The mystery man could be a sentient banana for all I know, but there's no way the DO feels threatened by Ishy/Moridin. So the motive in this theory doesn't stick. And the means? Well, that's -really- debatable. The DO says the ones who betray him &quot;die the final death,&quot; and Be'lal didn't betray the Shadow. Plus Moiraine's balefire was puny. But, it -was- balefire...<br /><br />Still, I vote no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-04 23:26:02
subject: <b>Last comment</b>
body:
Ok all I am saying is that Balefire is supposed to be the end of life and is the most feared death of all by anyone who actually knows what it is, and even the DO thinks so, Jordan comments not withstanding. To go back on that in the final hour, for me atleast, would cheapen the story over all. For an absolute death, in a story of assumed deaths, to suddenly be taken away would change the entire dynamic of the story. If Balefire cant kill you for good the what the heck can? If the good guys cant kill anyone then they will never win, and there is atleast the possibility of victory right? Just my thoughts, I could be totaly wrong, but I gotta say no to this one.


created: 2007-04-07 23:51:59
subject: <b>to LogainReborn</b>
body:
Since you seem to be so knowledgeable, perhaps you've heard of hyperbole (really, I couldn't resist a little sarcasm in light of your comments)?  But moving on, I'm not really sure it's all that hyperbolic.  Turn with me, if you will, to page 146 of The Shadow Rising(paperback), where Egwene says &quot;'I am stronger than Moiraine'...'she would be whimpering on the floor, or insensible, if she tried to hold as much [of Saidar] as I hold now.' It was true, though she had never before rated the Aes Sedai's ability to closely.&quot;  (by the way, I meant Egwene in my privious post, rather than Elayne, although it doesn't really matter, as Egwene and Elayne are known to be so close in strength that no difference is detectable)  Furthermore, page 56 of The Great Hunt reveals that, &quot;with training, [Nynaeve] will shine like a bonfire beside the candles of Elayne and Egwene.&quot;  Speaking in terms of irradiance (average amount of energy-per-unit-area-per-unit-time), a bonfire is indeed several orders of magnitude above a candle in overall emitted power/area.  In addition to this, we find on pages 150-151 of The Shadow Rising that Egwene &quot;had just assumed that [she and Elayne] were as strong as [Rand].  Near to it, at least.  She had just been rudely disabused.  Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once.  Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two.  He had to have been weaving a dozen.&quot;  (mathematically this works out to &gt;&gt;2048 times as difficult as maintaining one flow, but that result approaches infinity, which is not a viable conclusion.  Curse Egwene and her vague numeric descriptions!)  Though this may not be totally conclusive, I think it justifies the assumption that Rand is a good bit stronger than Nynaeve, who is a good bit stronger than Egwene, who is a good bit stronger than Moiraine.  (I'm pretty sure that there is a quote somewhere from Nynaeve's POV that shows he is stronger, but don't care enough to go looking for it.)  Thus, it is safe to say that, based on evidence presented by Moiraine and Egwene, Rand is several (meaning at least two, as you said) orders of magnitude stronger than Moiraine.  Of course, it could be argued that Moiraine was using hyperbole in explaining the strength of Nynaeve compared with that of Egwene and Elayne.  But if she is allowed to use this persuasive device in making her point and still retain such a sterling reputation, why in the Pit of Doom shouldn't I be?  I hope I've made my point.  Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my presentation, but I don't think I'm going to cause any mental breakdowns around here.


created: 2007-04-10 04:05:33
subject: <b>I agree with LitNs first comment.</b>
body:
I'm only qualifying that because I agree with in its entirety, not only that it's very intriguing Jordan would so closely paraphrase Moiraines comments about how much she can remove with balefire and in that so many of the theories detractors seem to have completely ignored the parallel quotations of Jordan and Moraine (or rather, the two very similar statements Jordan made).  That's hardly a smoking gun, of course, but it opens the door to the possibility.  The questions become whether the Dark One would let Forsaken be lost forever, with all their power, knowledge and loyalty, and whether the Dark Ones attention was on Be'lal when he was killed (since it appears the sticking point is balefire greatly reduces the Dark Ones window of opportunity between time of death and the last moment he can catch a soul).  Since Be'lal was luring the Dragon Reborn to Tear so the former could seize Callandor and the latter could kill him and take it, and since at least three other Forsaken were intently watching those events unfold it seems quite reasonable the Dark One was, too.  <br /><br />Hence I voted yes; the theory's not conclusively proven, there's not even a preponderance of evidence, but it's VERY plausible for anyone who's done their homework, and it also coincides with what my guts been telling me.  Jordan seems to have dropped a very big hint that's what's happened, though that, once again, isn't conclusive.  Beside all that, it would make BG do the Happy Dance, so it can't be all bad. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-13 17:56:37
subject: <b>How can Moridin threaten the DO?</b>
body:
Moridin's powers mainly depend on saa, which comes from the DO. The DO can cut off Moridin's access to saa any time he wants. Without saa, wouldn't Moridin just be an extremely powerful channeler?


created: 2007-05-02 22:40:35
subject: <b>Dude are you addicted to Crack-Cocaine!?</b>
body:
This barely deserves comment, indeed the main reason of this posting is to once again say that the disguised forsaken was Sammael. Now I know that most of you believe that he is dead and apparently R.J. has confirmed this, although over the course of several searches I have yet to see the quote that people are refering to let alone an article so untill I do I will remain skeptical. Secondly even if he did say that in an article how do you know it wasn't just a ruse? To tell the truth I think that the series has gotten so overblown that not even R.J. knows how it's giong to end specifically. Tell me did this quote nailing shut the coffin so to speak on Sammael come before or after the appearance of the disguised forsaken? Anyway just some food for thought, I could be mistaken.


created: 2007-06-21 00:35:04
subject: <b>He's back</b>
body:
There was no reason to call him Netweaver, if he died in one chapter, I say Be'lal is back to cause mayhem.


created: 2007-06-23 14:54:35
subject: <b>very unlikely</b>
body:
i find this theory i little hard to swallow. there is no real evidence, i think we are just trying to make up stories of our own now.<br /><br />the dark one says that be'lal's soul is beyond his reach as is rahvins. if the DO really wanted to keep someone out of the way to watch morridin thne i think he would have kept back one of them ind traps for himself. <br /><br />morridin is being watched by someone but not a chosen, he is watching him himself in the form of Shaidar Haran. when he can remove the one power from any of his chosen why would he keep back someone weaker than morridin to contest him in case he got too big for his boots?<br /><br />the DO was quite aware that ishy was calling himself the DO and he obviously had no problem with it or he would have died long since (he isnt exactly the forgiving sort is he?) and he deffinately wouldnt have reincarnated him and put him incharge if he was miffed with him would he?<br /><br />demandred could have told taim, kisman, rochaid, etc to kill rand individually so taim would no knowledge that orders had already been passed to his cronies, he simply thought he was passing on the order.<br /><br />i think this mysterious forsaken was probably either sammael (he probably isnt dead or jordan wouldnt have put that little ambiguous bit in about rand not being able to see if the way gate was open or not) or possible demandred. <br /><br />it could be demandred hiding himself and sending the trollocs was we know thta morridin had ordered rand left alive. he ordered kisman and his lot to kill him but if that had come back on him he could have denied knowledge, they are only darkfriends afterall but slayers word would be trusted and trollocs dont act by themself so they could both be traced back to him unless he hid behind the sammael identity. after what mesaana went through it is very unlikely that demandred would risk being caught disobeying is it?


created: 2007-07-12 10:09:53
subject: <b>Possible but unlikely</b>
body:
I think you showed how it COULD be done, but not that it has been done.<br /><br />If I understand balefire and death correctly this is how things are:<br /><br />When a person dies (violently or quietly) he/she is spun out of the web and the soul is later spun back as a new person without memories of the sould earlier life.<br /><br />What the DO does is that if he cathes the spun out thread of a recently dead person he can reinsert it into an existing body before the personality and memories are erased. But he can only do this within a relativly short time after death because the sould will be nullified. If he can't do this, the person irrevocably dies, the final death, but can be spun out again as a brand new person. If the DO has enough power he can perhaps rip the soul from existence permanently, hindering it from being reborn ever again. This could also be interpreted as the final death.<br /><br />What balefire does is a regular death, but earlier in time than when the person is balefired. The souls thread is not completely burned from the pattern, just spun out of it earlier. The DO, however &quot;moves&quot; along the pattern at the same pace and at the same place as regular time and because of that, with blaefire it is already too late to reinsert the person into a new body. The soul has been nullified before he/she is balefired. <br /><br />Depending in the time span the DO has to work with and the few seconds Moraine can erase the life thread, it is possible for the DO to reinsert a balefired thread aslong as the sould hasn't had time to be nullified yet. How strong Moraine is compared to anyone is irrelevant as it is only the amount of time burned away compared with the DOs ability to retrieve threads that count.<br /><br />Concerning the actual theory here I do not agree that Be'lal is back. There is absolutley no evidence or even indication of that. Liked the theory though.


created: 2007-07-13 05:52:25
subject: <b>errr...</b>
body:
I know it's called &quot;soul&quot; and not &quot;sould&quot;. No idea why I wrote it  wrong so many times... A minor stroke perhaps?


created: 2007-04-12 08:44:00
subject: <b>Good Theory!</b>
body:
But I think that this vision of Perrin's has already occured. Mat Bound and Naked w/ the a black spear and silver medallion...this was right before Mat went to Rhuiden...I feel that it was just showing Mat bound to the Pattern, and what was soon to oocur in his life, his recieving the Spear and Medallion...I think that Perrin and Egwene's Dreams differ, Perrin actually sees things when he is in T'A'R, he gets glimpses in the Sky, while Egwene has to actually be asleep before she recieves her dreams, plus most if not all of Egwene's Dreams show far into the Future, while those we've seen of Perrin's show at the most a few Months.


created: 2007-04-12 08:46:52
subject: <b>I agee</b>
body:
I think a lot of people assumed he would be captured by the Seanchan and trussed up like Perrin saw, but I like your idea better. (I doubt the Seanchan would use his ashanderei to tie him up.) Plus it makes sense that the Finn would not take away what they gave him. <br /><br />Mat may be the one that causes their capture in the first place, since visiting their realm is OK as long as you follow the rules. However, the fact that there appears to be a limit of one visit to each of the Finn, (the doorways could only be used once by a person), he may be violating the rules by a third trip.<br /><br />Thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-12 10:45:31
subject: <b>I must agree with Wesley Sedai</b>
body:
While an interesting idea, it just seems as if Perrin's dream is more symbolic than prophetic. If the dream were to be in the future, and Mat were naked, wouldn't Perrin notice the scar around Mat's neck?


created: 2007-04-12 11:08:43
subject: <b>I disagree...</b>
body:
I think Perrin's Dream points to Mat's time as Tylin's &quot;toy&quot;. This was an important and long time in Mat's life, thus legitimating a Prophecy about it. <br /><br />Mat being naked is related to their sexual relationship. We know that Mat didn't like it very much (the snarling), but could hardly do much against it (was bound). <br />In ACoS, ch.9, it's even said that Mat basically only wears the medallion, when he sleeps with Tylin:<br />&quot;All he had on was the foxhead medallion on its cord&#8212; much good that had done &#8212; and the black scarf tied around his neck.&quot;<br /><br />Besides that, the other Prophecies about Moiraine's rescue mention Mat's losing of an eye. This seems to be the important event, not Mat being captured by the Finn for a time. Therefore I doubt that Perrin had such a concrete vision about such a rather secondary event.<br /><br />Finally, this interpretation seems in conflict with what you stated in your other theory &quot;The Woman in Shadow&quot;, where you say that &quot;Moiraine cannot be &#8216;seen&#8217; in the dream because she is not in the main world, but in the world of the Alfinn and Eelfinn and thus so remote from the main world and out of context that in Egwene&#8217;s dream her image is shadowy.&quot; <br /><br />Why isn't then Mat's image shadowy, but very concrete? Because I agree that the Prophecies about Moiraine's rescue are normally quite vague (e.g. Thom pulling Moiraine's stone out of a fire). <br /><br />Anyway, AMoL will teach us, if you were right or not.


created: 2007-04-12 16:41:59
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
To Wesley Sedai<br /><br />Mat acquired the items he is wearing in Rhuidean, so the vision must be after his visit to Rhuidean, not before.<br /><br />To Light in the Night<br /><br />Thanks for the comments. I agree that the fact that Mat is about to make a third visit to the world of the Finns is very important and may have unexpected repercussions. I mentioned this in my previous theory.<br /><br />To I bore a hole<br /><br />Perrin&#8217;s vision came <i>after</i> Mat&#8217;s trip to Rhuidean, so Mat already had the scar.<br /><br />To Etzel<br /><br />Mat losing an eye is something that also may occur in the Finns&#8217; world. I believe that Perrin&#8217;s vision of Mat being bound immediately precedes the event of Mat losing an eye. <br /><br />In Egwene&#8217;s dream Moiraine is shadowy, yes, because she is out of context for Egwene. She went to another world and is believed by all to be dead. Egwene believes her dead. Hence she can&#8217;t recognize her. Moiraine's shadowiness is as much to do with Egwene believing her dead as with her being in another world. (The two are linked really).  It was Egwene who had the dream about Thom rescuing Moiraine&#8217;s stone too. Again, I think Egwene&#8217;s belief that Moiraine is dead prevents more detail. <br /><br />Conversely, when Egwene understands what a dream means, it becomes more detailed. This happened when she dreamt of the Tower under attack in <i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>.<br /><br />But this vision of Mat is Perrin&#8217;s vision. He has no beliefs that are getting in the way of his vision, preventing him from seeing it fully. <br /><br />Your interpretation or Perrin's dream is also a valid one. But it does not explain the ashanderei. Tylin ignored it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-04-12 19:14:40
subject: <b>I'll go along with it</b>
body:
Good catch regarding the Finns and their adherence to agreements.  I hadn't thought about Perrin's vision along those lines before. I'd say its a lot more plausible than some other theories I've read.  Elaborating on one detail, I think its probable that Mat is naked because of the manner that he tried (or will try) to &quot;cheat&quot; the Finns.  I'm betting he tries to take a few of his many knives (objects of iron) in with him, concealed under his clothes.  He carries so many that the only way the Finns could be sure they had totally disarmed him would be to strip him naked.  Then again, maybe they are going to skin him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-12 21:40:46
subject: <b>to linda_sedai</b>
body:
That's exactly my point- if Mat already has the scar, then Perrin would have noticed it. If it was in the far future, Mat would still have the scar. If it truly was a prophetic dream, then Perrin's memory of Mat's neck completely unmarred wouldn't overturn the fact that Mat should have the scar. Mat is not described as shadowy, nor is there any reason to believe that Perrin's vision of Mat is obscured. The fact that he doesn't see any mark on Mat leads me to believe that the vision is symbolic, not a true snapshot of the future.


created: 2007-04-13 02:51:49
subject: <b>On the ashandarei</b>
body:
The fact that Mat is bounded by his own weapon, thus making it useless to him, could indicate that generally a weapon is useless in Mat's situation. Similarly his special &quot;armor&quot;, the medallion, which prevents harm by the OP, obviously can't help him in any way here.<br /><br />That would fit with his Tylin's toy situation, because Mat couldn't fight Tylin or defend against her in conventional ways. Mat is snarling, because he realizes his own helplessness, although still possessing his special artifactes.


created: 2007-04-13 03:04:32
subject: <b>To I bore a hole:</b>
body:
Yet in the same session, Perrin saw Rand with a bandage covering his eyes and wearing a rough cloak. He did not notice that Rand had lost a hand.  This vision also shows that Perrin&#8217;s visions are not of the immediate future, since Rand has not yet dressed as a beggar. Nor has Rand&#8217;s situation been symbolic of beggary.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-04-13 05:21:28
subject: <b>Thumbs up</b>
body:
This theory also made me view the chapter-name (To the Tower of Ghenjei) in a different light. At first glance, it appears Jordan was only referring to Perrin's trip to the tower in that chapter. <br />In the light of what Linda wrote, it also might very well have been a 'wink' to Mat his future visit?<br /><br />Anyhow, I like it. Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2007-04-13 08:50:55
subject: <b>I'm not sure I agree</b>
body:
While I like the theory, I tend to think we have already seen this.  Rand finds Mat wearing the medallion and trussed up with the spear in the chora tree.  He is defenseless, whish is similar to being naked. Perrin's vision do not have to be predictions, but since he was seperated from Mat at this time, it is a way to tie them together.  It let's him know what is happening to Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-13 14:12:39
subject: <b>It's a good and valid theory, but I'm not sure I agree</b>
body:
I've given up on this Wolf-Dream vision still holding something dire for Mat's future. It has been concluded in KOD.<br /><br />IMHO, this dreams is wholly symbolic, and it can't be dissociated from the other two visions from Perrin : Egwene becoming The Mother, Nynaeve bending knee and Rand becoming the Fisher. <br /><br />I take it that the vision of Mat is <i>as general</i> as those.<br /><br />It represents Mat as &quot;sex toy&quot;, for one thing - reminescent of how Tylin bounded him.<br /><br />But most of all, it represents Mat, immobilized by the Ashandarei. Mat can't move, can't use his arms that are bent back (as Jain did to Tuon, but the result is that Mat <i>and</i> Tuon were trapped). His ashanda'rei is exposed - showing the 2 ravens next to one of his shoulders (echoing Egwene's two dreams of Mat : him with two ravens on his shoulder, and him wrestling with Tuon who leashes him. The last one is from the same book as Perrin's vision). On his chest, in the middle of him, the Fox.<br /><br />My conclusion is that it represents, generally, the events/situation of Mat &quot;trapping himself&quot; for the last part of his destiny : the Fox and the Raven/marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons. How he hurt himself, how Tylin immobilized him in Ebou Dar, how being Toy made him fall on Tuon herself, and how the Ashandarei attracted her attention.<br /><br />Perrin's dreams use wolf images-language. They are not extremely realistic.<br /><br />The one who risks loosing his skin, or may come close to it is Jain Farstrider, IMO. There's foreshadowing for it, but with the type of substitutive/indirect foreshadowing RJ used it's not possible to tell if it's gonna be parralel or mirroring).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-04-13 23:52:39
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I'd have to agree, I don't really think the dream had anything to do with Tylin.  She really wasn't that significant in the story that I think prophecy would fortell anything about her relationsip with Mat (except the dice, if you want to count them).  The whole Finn angle fits better I think.<br /><br />And I know somehow Mat's going to &quot;cheat&quot; in the Tower of Ghenjei.  Maybe it will be by taking in lots of knives, Aludra's matches, or Thom.  Or all three.  Or who knows, maybe just being <i>ta'veren</i> is in itself enough of a cheat (you know, kind of like with Comar's loaded dice).


created: 2007-05-09 10:44:23
subject: <b>Nice idea, But...</b>
body:
I think the viweing is of metaphorical intrest, and that it symbolises Mat being set on his path, being tied to the wheel. Since he was told that if he did not go to Rhuidean, he wil die, I think this symbolises that he has been set on his path.


created: 2007-06-25 00:00:59
subject: <b>Three to enter Tower of Ghenji - Fire, music, iron?</b>
body:
I agree that the theory fits, and that Tylin's role was too small to warrant a vision/dream. <br /><br />I also find it coincidental that the Aelfin/Eelfin (and the Snakes and Foxes game) mention three things (Fire to blind, music to dazzle and iron to bind) and at the same time Moraine says that three people must go to save her if they go at all.<br /><br />Fire - ??? (maybe Aludra?)<br />Music - Thom and his harp<br />Iron - Mat and his knives


created: 2007-05-07 16:39:57
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
I think you make some really good points with some good evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-07 18:55:02
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I like the idea and tend to agree. No reasoning or proof to offer, just a gut feeling I suppose. Either way I think the idea is orignal (as far as I know) and I like it good job.


created: 2007-05-07 20:17:47
subject: <b>Makes sense to me</b>
body:
You'd expect that with any talent there would be different degrees of skill and I think the Wise Ones alluded to this a couple times as well.  It still seems strange to me that there aren't more dreamwalkers among the Aiel while the tiny group of living Forsaken have at least 4.  Maybe the Aiel only pick up on the &quot;sparkers&quot; since they all seem to be so highly skilled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-07 22:30:39
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
It has been said many times in the books that everyone can enter the world of dreams, but most people do so without realizing it or being able to control it. <br />True Dreamers are probably born with the spark as you say. It makes sence that it would be possible to train some people who would not be able to enter the world of dreams at will otherwise. <br /><br />I remember reading from Jordan's old blog that Dreaming, like Chanelling, is genetic; but Dreamers do not have to be Chanellers.


created: 2007-05-08 00:07:50
subject: <b>Very Good theory...</b>
body:
but I thought Rand was pulled into a dream created by Lanfear, I think that's why Asmodeon was able to appear...


created: 2007-05-08 04:35:17
subject: <b>Even so....</b>
body:
She would have to be a dreamwalker to do so, and Asmodeam as well I would think, since Egwene says that when pulling somebody into a dream of your own making, it's that thing about being part but seperate.....so I think for Asmodean to enter it he'd have to be very skilled, and probaly had to do it from the dream area...


created: 2007-05-08 05:18:27
subject: <b>Some points...</b>
body:
Firstly, you seem to claim that Aran'gar has the ability naturally (ie. she has the &quot;spark&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. I disagree with that. Aran'gar is very weak and can meddle with Egwene's Dreams only if she is nearby.<br />I think Aran'gar was someone who was taught the skill. I think after some time, learners do not need to use ter'angreal. Since it seems the ter'angreal cannot be used to enter the place were dreams float, this skill may be taught once the student has reached a certain level.<br /><br />Also all the FS have some ability with TAR. That is required even when you come in the flesh. I'd say the Moggy, Lanfear and Ishamael are definite sparkers. Be'lal, Asmo and Graendal may also fit in this category.<br /><br />I believe that anyone can learn and that in the AoL, ter'angreal were used to teach anyone who wished.


created: 2007-05-08 06:08:49
subject: <b>Misinterpretatiom</b>
body:
I never claimed any of those had the spark, only showed they had the ability. My opinion is also that Aran'gar doesn't have the &quot;spark&quot;, and that Lanfear, Moggy and Ishamael are the &quot;true&quot; dreamwalkers, maybe Asmodean as well since he dared to enter on Lanfear.


created: 2007-05-08 08:47:29
subject: <b>A few more points....</b>
body:
This is one of those subjects that many of us have pondered about over the years, and RJ has not really given us all the information we need to completely understand how everyone enters TAR. <br /><br />Some examples are: In tSR, Aviendha tells Rand that she can't enter the dreamworld unless one of the Dreamwalkers assists her. We know the WO's don't use ter'angreal, and there's no evidence to suggest that Aviendha has any Talent in this area. So the question is, how do they accomplish helping her into TAR? (Remember, they warn against pulling someone into the dream, so it isn't that method.)<br /><br />Also, we have reason to doubt that the male Forsaken enter TAR in the flesh under normal circumstances. (Or at least not always.) When Nynaeve captures Moggy and goes to help Rand against Rahvin, Moggy is terrified and says something like: <i>&quot;You don't understand! They're here in the flesh! In the flesh!&quot;</i> In other words, she really emphasizes that fact like it is out of the ordinary, which suggests that the male Forsaken have other ways of entering TAR. And this wouldn't necessarily imply that they all have an inborn skill to accomplish this.<br /><br />We know that the WO's have taught Egwene how to enter TAR while in a trance. (She did this while on horseback crossing the Waste in tFoH.) So we do know that it's possible to enter TAR without being asleep and dreaming yourself there, or by using a gateway or ter'angreal. Whether or not this is something that can be learned by someone that isn't a natural-born Dreamwalker is not known for sure. However, I think this method may explain how some of the male Forsaken access TAR. <br /><br />Also, from all the evidence we have been given, only Ishy among the male Forsaken has been shown to be a Dreamwalker. At the DFS in tGH he supplied his minions with information that was obviously gleaned from reading the Pattern like the WO's do later. (As shown through Carridin's POV. These are &quot;maybe&quot; possibilities that could happen.) Ishy seems to find it easy to locate Rand/ta'veren in the Pattern, too, while Graendal claims it is harder than he makes out. This is more evidence of his skill in that area, IMHO.<br /><br />RJ has also said there is a distinction between Dreamer and Dreamwalker, too. As far as we can tell, Egwene is the only Dreamer in the story, and her Talent isn't fully developed yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-08 10:11:43
subject: <b>Sounds about right.</b>
body:
The Forsaken manifest so many abilities that in the current Age are considered uncommon, that is must be the cast that certain skills with Dreamwalking you must be born with while others require training - after all, it has been said that most people accidentally Dreamwalk, but they never learn to control it.<br /><br />I do have to point out to another poster that men and women can both enter TAR in the flesh, which was why the Wise Ones' warned her against it, and she herself did this to send Lan to Nynaeve. Moghediens' warning was to emphasize the fact that while Dreaming, a channelers' ability is constrained to a mere portion of their strength, while skill in Dreaming is more effective than any weave - my personal theory is that the channeler is using mainly spirit and at most, a reflection of the flows they can wield in the real world. So if a Dreamer came across someone in TAR in the flesh, a wound from the person there in the flesh might be enough to easily kill them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The fact is, that to do anything in the world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in and scramble through as well as we can.&quot; -Robert Cushing<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-08 11:14:10
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I have always believed that there is a weave that allow entry into TAR. In the AoL they used minor ter'angreal to assist and train, I suspect that when training advances, the weave for entry into to TAR is taught<br /><br />Aginor does not seem to have any natural ability - from an AOL perspective, I'd guess that her skill are mearly adequate. She needs to be very close to Egwene to mess with her dreams - this seems to me an indication that 'her' training in this area never advanced to an 'expert' level as it clearly did with Lanfear and Ishamael and less certainly with Bel'al and Asmodean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-08 18:41:47
subject: <b>Hmm....</b>
body:
Did Moggy say that only 9 others knew how to perform a binding?? This was when she was threatening Nynaeve...she said that she would turn Nynaeve into a Horse, and that when ever Nynaeve dreamed herself or was pulled into T'A'R that she would be a horse unless someone changed her back, and that there were only so many others(referring to the forsaken) that knew that type of binding. So I guess that means that all of the Forsaken were pretty well proficient in Dreamwalking. One thing for sure...I believe that Lanfear and Moghedian are definitly born with the Dreamwalking ability...and that the others simply learned their talents later on...probably during the war and perhaps from the Dark One.


created: 2007-05-08 22:47:11
subject: <b>To LitN...</b>
body:
On the Aviendha point: I think the WO forbid bringing someone into TAR only if it is against their will. So maybe they use the technique with Avi since Avi was willing to be pulled in.<br /><br />As for Forsaken entering TAR while in a trance, I doubt it. The WO say that entering this way makes you appear insubstantial. Also you cannot channel much. Since we have never seen an insubstantial FS, and I doubt they'll risk the lack of power, I don't think they enter in this way.<br /><br />Apart from Ishy, Asmodean and Be'lal also enter another's dream. They could be Dreamwalkers too.<br /><br />And apart from Egwene, the WO are also Dreamers. They send warning to Rand via Aviendha when they Dream of him. They also know of Moirane's arrival, Rand's arrival, Moirane going to Rhuidean, and the possibilities if Rand or Moirane dying, in TSR.


created: 2007-05-09 12:38:51
subject: <b>Not very convincing</b>
body:
<blockquote> My theory is that Dreamwalking is an ability where some are born with the &#8220;spark&#8221; to dreamwalk(ie. They will start to dreamwalk sometime), but it can also be taught to other individuals who have the ability but it does not manifest itself. In comparison with channeling, where some have the spark, while others are born with the ability, but must be taught how to use it.</blockquote><br /><br />The analogy seems incorrect.  What the books say is that <i>everyone</i> can dream themselves into tel'aran'rhiod.  Everyone has this &quot;spark&quot; you speak of, while for channeling it's under 3% of the population.  <br /><br />Also, all wild animals have the ability.<br /><br />The skills/talent of Dreamwalking is also a matter of achieving control and being able to enter and travel TAR consciously, at will. This Talent may not even be inborn, it needs to be trained and honed. <br /><br />Egwene and the four Wise Ones have a different Talent, from which their greater affinity than usual for tel'aran'rhiod seems to arise : they are Dreamers. Even Egwene, who apparently has much potential, needed months of training to reach her current level, part self taught - with as well as without a training ter'angreal - and largely passed to her by the Wise Ones though one-and-one apprenticeship. A great deal of the training focus on entering TAR at the strength you wish (the &quot;misty effect&quot; can also be achieved by entering in a waking trance instead of in full sleep).<br /><br />Aviendha, who doesn't have the Talent of Dreaming, was still being taught by the WO, with minimal success apparently (it could be the WO's teaching methods which are inadequate to train in dreamwalking the non-Dreamers).<br /><br /><blockquote> The way I've specified the difference between the ability to dreamwalk and entering in the flesh, is that only someone who is dreamwalking can enter the area where dreams are to be found and thus enter people's dreams or pull them into a dream of their own making.</blockquote> <br /><br />Or in Tel'aran'rhiod itself. Both are possible.<br /><br /><blockquote>This implies that entering this area, and TAR is not the same thing, and that entering this area in the flesh is not possible.</blockquote><br /><br />Actually, the conclusion <i>seems</i> to be right, but not because of your reasonning. <br /><br />Nothing implies that it's impossible to enter this area in the flesh. We actually don't know for sure if there isn't a way to reach this area while in TAR in the flesh.  The way Egwene does it suggests it may not be possible, but it's only a guess and this may not be the only method.  We also do not know if you can touch this area without dreamwalking. <br /><br /><blockquote>Bel'al pulled Alviarin into a dream of his own making.</blockquote><br /><br />Speculative. It was into his own dreams, or it was in tel'aran'rhiod (we see Ishamael do both) - we can't tell.<br /><br /><blockquote>Aran'gar has been playing around with Egwene's dreams, altering them.</blockquote><br /><br />Purely speculative again.  We know that Aran'gar is poorly skilled in TAR (she was there in the flesh in KOD, by the way), and that she can't even find Egwene's dreams unless she sleeps very close to her.  We don't know that she has used TAR skills to &quot;alter her dreams&quot; (in truth, Egwene rarely had True Dreams, and her headaches came with nightmares).  As far as we can tell, Aran'gar may have done this mostly with weaves of saidin on Egwene's brain - that triggered the violent headaches - not by altering her dreams directly, with her poor TAR skills. <br /><br /><blockquote>The reason for showing that several of the male Forskaen have the ability to dreamwalk, is that the Wise Ones say that the ability is almost non-existent in men, though half of the male Forsaken show evidence of the ability.</blockquote><br /><br />The Wise Ones may, or may not, know what they're talking about.  They seem to fuse Dreamers and Dreamwalkers, for one thing, and secondly, it seems that the Dreaming ability is more frequent (but not unique) in channelers. Therefore, the fact there are no male channelers allowed to survive for 3000 years may in a large part explain why Dreaming for men is said to be nearly unexistant by the Wise Ones  - and beside, this is a power &quot;exclusive&quot; to the Wise Ones in Aiel society - they train all the girls with it to become WO - and they are very unlikely to seek it actively in men, meaning that they probably catch the odd Dreamer only, while they have better success with girls, because they tried out with all their apprentices. Based on the Corianin Nedeal to Egwene gap - and the fact the WO have only four Dreamers total, the &quot;odd Dreamer&quot; has become rare indeed.).<br /><br /><blockquote>Well, why would they still make dream ter&#8217;angreal then, since there are multiple dream ter&#8217;angreal's, some requiring channelling, others not. Some of these are the training ter&#8217;angreal Demandred refers to, the others were most likely used by those AS and non-channelers who could not enter TAR. </blockquote><br /><br />Possibly.  <br /><br /><blockquote> For example, Egwene could enter TAR before she used a ter&#8217;angreal.</blockquote> <br /><br />Really?  When?  Egwene had &quot;True Dreams&quot; before she used the ring, but I can't recall her visiting TAR willingly before Verin gave her the ring. She used the ring to ease her way into tel'aran'rhiod the first time, and shortly after she got the trick to enter TAR intuitively puzzled out (something all the other AS still don't get) and stopped using the ring (it seemed to have been a mistake to stop, as it seemed the Ring helped all her abilities - for instance she found Perrin/Rand in TAR with ease while she had the ring, and her true dreams seemed emphasized a little).<br /><br />The ter'angreal can probably be used to train everyone as beginners, from Dreamers with a strong ability for TAR like Egwene to non-Dreamers who have less affinity to learn Dreamwalking. The other ter'angreal may simply ease the way in for people who have difficulties mastering the conscious entrance.<br /><br />The fact Corianin Nedeal's ter'angreal has been hidden, and the others in the WT unused, may very well explain why the Aes Sedai so rarely develop the dreamwalking ability anymore and why TAR is almost forgotten among them.. We don't have much evidence that even a strong Dreamer like Egwene (or even Corianin herself, who is said to be not very strong) would have started to enter TAR on her own, and consciously, without the Ring or proper training. <br /><br /><br /><blockquote> And I&#8217;m sure the Wise Ones don&#8217;t have a ter&#8217;angreal to teach their students.</blockquote> <br /><br />Which may be why they have little success training non-Dreamers to dreamwalk (eg: Aviendha).<br /><br /><blockquote> Thus the only people you would use a ter&#8217;angreal to teach, is either somebody who cannot enter TAR, or somebody that can develop the ability through the use of a ter&#8217;angreal. </blockquote><br /><br />Which is everyone....<br /><br /><blockquote>  The reason that makes the first unlikely is that it would be much easier to teach somebody to use TAR if you went in the flesh, as it will be more practical</blockquote> <br /><br />First, the Wise Ones (who may be right or wrong), believe that entering TAR in the flesh is something evil and unnatural.  As we don't fully know the purpose of TAR in the universe, though it seems to be the &quot;collective inconscious&quot; - it is far from impossible that leaving the real pattern to enter its reflection for real may be harmful to the universe.  The pattern doesn't seem to &quot;like&quot; much people travelling where they shouldn't go.<br /><br />Secondly, what the training ter'angreal do is to bring you at will into tel'aran'rhiod, as well as regulate the strength at which you enter tel'aran'rhiod (eg : according to Hopper, Perrin lacks this control and enters TAR too strongly - which Hopper says is dangerous and may even kill him).<br /><br /> <br /><blockquote> And since the Forsaken enter in the flesh so often, it can hardly be dangerous, since a lot of them are too scared to take any risks.</blockquote> <br /><br />But you completely forget that it may be harmful <i>to tel'aran'rhiod</i> itself - or that it may affects the people's dreams at large, or that the Forsaken may know and not care for side effects to either TAR or to themselves.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote> Though none of my reasons might be proof on their own, I&#8217;m certain that when you take all into consideration you will come to the same conclusion that I have, which is that some people have the &#8220;spark&#8221; to dreamwalk, but others also have the ability and can be taught how to use it.</blockquote> <br /><br /><br />It is far more likely that &quot;dreamwalking&quot; in itself is not a talent, but a learned skill - and everybody could do it, even to a small degree to some people. Controlling your entrance to TAR and how strongly you are there is difficult, which is what the trainign ter'angreal are meant for.<br /><br />Some separate &quot;Talents&quot; give some people a greater affinity to Dreamwalk.  This is the case with Dreaming - and it seems that &quot;being bonded to the wolves&quot; also comes with an affinity for entering TAR (but Perrin didn't do it at will - it was accidental) - which may well have something to do with the connection to the &quot;collective inconscious&quot; of the wolves themselves, who all dreamwalk (ie: sharing the wolves' collective mind may drag you into TAR).<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-09 13:01:06
subject: <b>.. so the conclusions from the books could just as well be :</b>
body:
And from the same &quot;evidence&quot; :<br /><br />- Everyone who can dream also has access to tel'aran'rhiod - as the odd dreamers there for instants show, as well as the fact at least some of the Forsaken can bring anyone they wish into TAR or into their own dreams.<br /><br />- Mastering the entrance conciously and at the desired degree is difficult and almost impossible without proper training or a ter'angreal device<br /><br />- the Dreamwalking Talent greatly increases you affinity for tel'aran'rhiod as well, though there is no solid evidence you would master TAR and the entry into TAR on your own without an incentive, like training or a ter'angreal.<br /><br />- The connection to the wolves, who are all &quot;dreamwalkers&quot;, causes the wolfbrothers to enter TAR, accidentally, with much greater ease - though there is no solid evidence that this isn't something the wolf, or the part of your mind that is connected to them, does to the wolfbrother.<br /><br />- We have absolutely no solid evidence that any of the Chosen is a Dreamer, though many (Ishamael, Lanfear, Moghedien, Be'lal) are shown as skilled as Dreamwalkers. We can't tell from the books if any is a &quot;natural dreamwalker&quot; (if such a thing exist),if some of them just have a Talent that helps their dreamwalking (ie: Dreaming), if some of them aren't just better trained, or if it's a another cause which escapes us - for instance a special strength in Spirit that increases their TAR abilities once it's been trained.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-18 13:34:11
subject: <b>Forsaken and dreamwalking</b>
body:
I'm just going to add briefly to the discussion on dreamwalking and Forsakens.  I do think that all of the Forsaken have the dreamwalking abilities (most to a greater degree - ie, Ishamael, Lanfear, Moghedien, Be'lal, Asmodean - and some to a lesser degree like Aran'gar who needs to be near Egwene to manipulate her dreams).  The Forsaken were the best of the AOL who went over to the shadow, so it is only natural that they would all have abilities beyond most people (hence all of them having dreamwalking abilities).  Even Aran'gar, who professes lesser abilities, is still able to penetrate and manipulate Egwene's dreams when Egwene was accounted one of the strongest in the current time by her Wise One teachers.  Moreover, Moghedien stated that all the Forsaken alive knows the binding in TAR to change something permanently.  This does not seem to be a middling ability that anyone can do, but indicates a pretty high level of control over TAR.  Not surprising again, seeing as that only the best of the best would be chosen by the DO as the Chosen.


created: 2007-06-02 15:08:42
subject: <b>dreamwalking and channelers</b>
body:
Just to add about the idea of channelers being more likely to have the &quot;spark&quot; for dreamwalking. we know several dreamwalkers and only 3 possibly 4 of them have been none channelers. <br /><br />Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, Seana, Perrin, and we assume Elyas. <br /><br />out of these known dream walkers the channelers are the strongest in the dream. Amys says, right after saying its nothing to do with the OP that of the four aiel walkers, Melaine and Amys were stronger than Bair and Seana.<br /><br />We can assume that Egwene is strong in the Dream as she manages to break free of the Emonds Field trap that had been set for her by one of the forsaken which we can assume is not an easy thing to do as Rand Mat and Perrin fail to break free from Ishamael's dreams.<br /><br />We have no way of gaging Perrin's strength but his control seems to be somewhat limited (he has to leap distances to get to a palce he cant just think himself there and if he stays in the dream too long he begins to die)<br /><br />we have never seen Elyas in the Dream or heard of him entering it but we assume since it is called the Wolf Dream that all wolfbrothers can enter it.


created: 2007-11-20 12:48:22
subject: <b>Well argued.</b>
body:
I like your theory! I think there's a good chance you're right.<br /><br />I voted &quot;thumb up&quot;.


created: 2007-05-15 08:47:23
subject: <b>Much of your theory is debunked by RJ himself....</b>
body:
<blockquote> In short, she does not know about Lanfear&#8217;s shield and would not risk a direct confrontation with a male Forsaken. </blockquote><br /><br />You've never seen this point being debated?<br /><br />I'll summarize it for you :  this is only partly true (Graendal hangs around male Forsaken all the time, Moridin even comments once that she may attack Sammael. The female Forsaken would contradict your view that they wouldn't dare sneak on one of the men) if Graendal had foreknowledge of her encounter with Asmodean, and the circumstances of the murder strongly suggest that the killer was as surprised as Asmodean when he appeared.  <br /><br />He left Rand's party and was wandering in the corridors.  He saw a small door (ie: a door used by servants and/or door to the servants' quarters) which he thought may lead him to a pantry (it's a servants' room in a palace, not a closet - and he was wrong by the way, in the Caemlyn palace everything is handled from the kitchens) - and <i>on the spur of the moment</i>, he decided to open it. His killer was behind this door.  <br /><br />Asmodean was a &quot;road kill&quot; (dixit RJ himself). His murder wasn't premeditated.  He opened the wrong door at the wrong time and surprised Graendal, possibly as she was compelling palace servants to serve her as spies. Graendal needed to know if Rand was coming after her next.  <br /><br /><br />Furthermore, I give a plausible scenario of his death at Moridin&#8217;s hands: Moridin takes on his disguise of Ba&#8217;alzamon in lieu of reading a verdict and a sentence, then uses balefire to carry out the execution.<br /><br /><blockquote> Asmodean has the time to take that one step into the pantry, to have blood drain from his face, and to shout &#8220;You? No!&#8221; before he finally dies. From this I deduce that 1) the killer wanted Asmodean to see who is killing him and 2) the killer is not in the least bit afraid that Asmodean might kill him/her first. (Alternatively, that moment of recognition is mutual. The murder was not premeditated and Asmodean actually surprised his killer. I don&#8217;t consider this case, since then I have no idea who it might have been or what they might have been doing in the wine pantry. Stealing wine?)</blockquote><br /><br /><br />Asmodean <i>wasn't</i> in the &quot;wine pantry&quot; - we learn later on that drinks and goods are all handled from the kitchens. He had opened a door that he thought <i>might lead</i> to the pantry.    The &quot;small door&quot; was probably distinctive, to make him think this might lead to a servant room, thus the most likely scenario is that he opened a door to the servants's quarters.<br /><br />The first massive flaw in your theory, and many others, is that the killer <i>couldn't be waiting for Asmodean there</i>, because he/she couldn't have any idea that Asmodean would ever go this way!  The murder was a &quot;road kill&quot;, it wasn't premeditated.  The killer executed Asmodean, because otherwise Asmodean would have killed her. <br /><br /><blockquote> The aforementioned ladies do not know about the shield, thus would not seek such a dangerous confrontation. Furthermore, none of them would care to show Asmodean who is killing him.</blockquote><br /><br />Nobody <i>sought</i> to confront Asmodean.<br /><br />Who did it? <br />MORIDIN<br /><br /><blockquote>1) Asmodean would not recognize Moridin unless Moridin used Mask of Mirrors, and that seems contrived; 2) Moridin was not introduced until later and Asmodean&#8217;s killer is supposed to be &#8220;obvious to the most casual observer.&#8221;</blockquote> <br /><br />&quot;Obvious to the most casual observer&quot; was a JOKE (dixit RJ again).  However, RJ did say that we could figure out using some clues in TFOH, but no red flags.  The only such &quot;clue&quot; is the fact that Asmodean reveals that he is aware of where Graendal is hiding.  There you have Graendal's motive to come to Caemlyn once she discovered that Lanfear's plan had gone all wrong and that two of the schemers had been executed by Rand already. <br /><br /><blockquote>The DO frees Moghedien. Asmodean is as captive as Moghedien, yet he ends up killed. Why would the DO command such different fates in a similar circumstance? I think the DO believes that Asmodean betrayed him because he also does not know about Lanfear&#8217;s shield.</blockquote><br /><br />This is totally irrelevant - you should really hunt down the quotes by RJ, it would have saved you a lot of work.<br /><br />As per Jordan, <i>Shai'tan did not order anyone to execute Asmodean</i>.<br /><br /><br /> <blockquote>The common objection is that Asmodean then would not have recognized Moridin, and Moridin has no reason to use the Mask of Mirrors. Actually, he does. Asmodean&#8217;s death was an execution of a traitor. Execution, as opposed to murder, calls for an authority, a verdict, a sentence, and an understanding on the part of the condemned. For Moridin, the most efficient way to communicate all this to Asmodean is to put on the mask of Ba&#8217;alzamon.</blockquote> <br /><br />What a beautiful house of cards!  <br /><br /><blockquote> consider that Ishamael did wear that and many other masks for millennia.</blockquote><br /><br />Evidence please?  <br /><br /><blockquote> When I first read this series, it was obvious to me that the DO cleared out the traitor. I, the casual observer, didn&#8217;t even wonder which one of many DO&#8217;s agents performed the deed.</blockquote> <br /><br />Well, you got on a bad start, since this wasn't an execution, it was a <i>road kill</i>.<br /><br />The only two Forsaken with a motive to come to Caemlyn to spy on Rand after Rahvin's demise were Sammael and Graendal.  Sammael's comments makes it unlikely that its him, leaving Graendal.  <br /><br />RJ even made her go &quot;grave digging&quot; in Illian after Sammael's demise, and right under Rand's nose.<br /><br /><blockquote>Moridin killed Asmodean in the guise of Ba&#8217;alzamon. Graendal did not kill Asmodean because she would have been too scared of him. If I had an Ajah, it would have been white.</blockquote><br /><br />White?  Your logic is more similar to Elaida's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-15 09:52:03
subject: <b>Not buying it</b>
body:
Sorry, I think Doma has it right in his previous comments. <br /><br />On another subject (Taim = Moridin), how come no one mentions Taims black and red lair (KOD) when they talk about this possibility.  Seems to me that Moridin has the claimed the Black Tower for his own like he has Moghedien and Cyndane.  Granted, he could be signifying his ownership over Taim, but it should at least be mentioned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-15 12:10:11
subject: <b>Also thought about that.....</b>
body:
Why does nobody mention the red en black(KOD) in the moridin=taim theories??? Plus, moridin mentions somewhere that it's hard to loose a game when playing both sides, and since the ashaman are probaly the most vital factor for the last battle, i would think that moridin thus has some form of control there, whether through taim being his proxy, or him being taim????


created: 2007-05-15 12:32:00
subject: <b>Just to put this out there...</b>
body:
Graendal was one of the strongest females in her own age...she says so herself, that not to many were stronger than her. So I don't think she'd have any problem handling Asmodean, shield or no shield.


created: 2007-05-15 14:59:11
subject: <b>I just can't buy into Moridin</b>
body:
The reality is that RJ has said time and again that all the clues to figure out who did the the deed are in the books, up to and including tFoH. <br /><br />By the time of Asmodean's death, we had not seen anyone transmigrated. We had heard Aginor say the Great Lord of the Dark will soon be free and give them new flesh, (way back in tEotW), but we had no more information than that, or how this was to be accomplished. We had no reason to think the DO would not only bring back dead Forsaken, but also place them into new bodies, and give them new names as well.<br /><br />Speaking of which, Moridin's name does not appear until ACoS chapter 25. No matter how you want to stretch RJ's mind and word games, you can't reach that far and come up with a name we didn't know by the end of tFoH, and place him as the murderer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-16 09:09:26
subject: <b>Don't Forget the Two Servants Theory</b>
body:
I think the most convincing theory is the Two Servants Theory, available here: <br /><br />http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/main/theories.html<br /><br />From the theory: &quot;He turns a corner and runs into a couple of servants. This is odd since, the next morning, Rand notes that the servants all ran away and have not returned.&quot; This is mighty peculiar, and seems to me a definite clue. We have to consider those two odd servants, and this theory does so in a quite convincing way.<br /><br />It ends up with either Sammael or Graendal as the killer. I lean towards Graendal myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-16 09:16:00
subject: <b>Doesn't connect for me</b>
body:
I can't see Moridin doing this.  I still see Graendal, and if only for the simplest reason that she was there.<br /><br />The plan (that we learned earlier in the book) was that Lanfear, Rhavin, Sammael and Graendal were plotting together to lure Rand into a trap.  The plan was set to incriminate Sammael so that Rand would go there, and the other three woudl come jump him.<br /><br />Since the three were collaberating, that implies they were nearby and waiting, which implies that they were all in the city. <br /><br />So when Rand comes and kills Rhavin instead, and Lanfear has already been taken care of, that leaves Graendal to hide and see what is going on and figure out how she can turn this to her advantage.  When, lo and behold, Asmodean stumbles across her.  Now, she did not know about the shield, but then again, Baelfire cares not for any shields, nor does a quick strike using different methods.<br /><br />And as for others not detecting the weaves, I am pretty sure we had evidence up to that point of inverting the weaves and the ability to hide their ability to channel from others.


created: 2007-05-16 12:14:10
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Moridin has neither killed Asmo (reasons have already been given) nor is he Taim. The colours are IMO just a red herring. If he were, Taim would certainly be troubled by the connection created by the crossing balefire and we never had mention of this in the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I evil? Yes I am!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-16 15:47:16
subject: <b>To Matwilder</b>
body:
FYI, the &quot;Two Servants theory&quot; has also been debunked by RJ. He said they were just servants.<br /><br />If it's a clue, it's another clue that Asmodean opened a door to an area of the palace used by servants, the kind of place Graendal would likely go to find herself spies.<br /><br />There is an old couple of servants that fled during Renee's investigation, and she never finds out who they were working for (but Elayne is miffed that these disloyal servants aren't even new ones).<br /><br />IMHO, those two were possibly the same old ones Rand came upon during the battle, and they were Graendal's spies. First near Rahvin maybe, and then keeping an ear open for rumors/information about Rand and his intentions. She would have compelled them to stay - it's only when Renee was looking around for spies that they fled.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-16 17:34:22
subject: <b>Agree with DomA's side</b>
body:
As for Moridin=Taim, I just can't see it. I think that Taim has been trained under Ishamael, thus the comments. But Moridin sees with the saa, gets mad and vaporizes rats and bars in windows, melts servants, and probably would have shown himself when Taim was asked to hold as much saidin as he could before Rand in the very beginning. Taim is way too calm (compared to how Moridin would act under similar instances), and has his own personality. I think that he truly wants to be the evil DR, thus all the imitation. Finally, Moridin's is the third face, not Taim's.<br /><br />P.S. Logain gets to fight someone, and I don't think Taim/Moridin would work out for him. Not so good for Logain if that's true.


created: 2007-05-17 00:01:48
subject: <b>no hope</b>
body:
this theory had gaping holes of consequemcial speculation that didn't do it for me. the idea of taim=moridn is totally wrong although a connection of master and servant could be plausilbe. even though i'm not entirely sure about graendal, moridin is a long shot, longer than i'm willing to accept<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When one person suffers from a delusion it is called 'insanity'; When many people suffer from a delusion it is called 'religion'</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 09:54:20
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
No need to argue the point - DomA covers things nicely. <br /><br />There is just no way Moridin did it - face up to it, it was Graendal, end of story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 22:09:25
subject: <b>At thid point...</b>
body:
i honestly think that at this point, regardless of what RJ may say on the situation regarding our own petty wars and argumenrts, the fact that someone killed Asmo is one of the major plot &quot;twists&quot; to come in the final book.   <br /><br />That means that the answer must be either avi or taim, and i think the ratioanle will be explained in book 12.   <br /><br />Not moridin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-18 11:07:02
subject: <b>??, with balefire, in the wine pantry?</b>
body:
Why does everyone assume Asmo was IN the wine pantry when he was killed.  &quot;He opened a small door intending to find his way to the pantry. One step...&quot;  This implies that as he opened a small door and stepped through, then saw his killer.  Sounds like he entered a servant's hallway.<br /><br />You were unable to convince me about Moridin killing Asmo, though.  I am a firm &quot;Lanfear did it&quot; person - she has the strongest motive, best knowledge of Asmo's situation, and a properly phrased/executed wish could accomplish anything and result in her death.  My husband thinks Sammael did it - Sam spent the whole book attaking Rand's support system (namely Mat with darkhouds -who spied on Asmo- and then with Melindrah).<br /><br />Anyway, well-written theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-18 11:18:54
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Not convinced. See DomA's post above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-18 13:13:54
subject: <b>you think it was not premeditated?</b>
body:
If you read the text of my theory, you will note that I do explicitly make the assumption that the murder is premeditated. If that is granted, my logic is flawless.<br /><br />You guys actually think that the murder was not premeditated? It seems a bit of a stretch to suppose that just at the very time when Rand HAPPENED to decide to kill <br />Rahvin, Graendael HAPPENED to be in Caemlyn, supposedly compulsing servants in the very corridor that Asmodean HAPPENED to wander into. She then kills him and goes straight home without helping Rahvin, because I cannot believe that Rahvin AND Graendal couldn't take on Rand. It also seems unlikely that Rahvin called her there with some emergency mechanism, since she does not actually help the fight.<br /><br />Additionally, Rand is taveren, so coincidences are supposed to go his way. This string of very improbable events is certainly against him.<br /><br />It seems a little more plausible that someone tracked down Asmodean's corridor wandering (from a window or a roof or whatever.)<br /><br />As to corridor vs pantry, yah sorry, whatever, does not change the logic of my argument at all.<br /><br />As to &quot;RJ said 'Shaitan did not order the murder'&quot;, I have not seen this interview. Maybe Nae'Blis has enough authority to do it without explicit command.


created: 2007-05-18 16:39:36
subject: <b>Re: fybonacci</b>
body:
Assuming that the murder was premeditated is just that; an assumption. While it may not necessarily be a wrong assumption, it very well could be, and thus it could lead to flaws in your theory. <br /><br />The consensus among the Graendal supporters, or most any other suspect for that matter, is that the murderer showed up after the battle between Rand and Rahvin was over.<br /><br />There was a Wotmania interview with RJ back in 2004 and from there we learned:<br /><br /><b>10. Did the Dark One order Asmodean's death? If not, how does he know about it in the prologue of Lord of Chaos?</b><br /><br /><i>No, he didn&#8217;t order Asmodean&#8217;s death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn&#8217;t complete knowledge.</i><br /><br />Then, in 2005, around the release of KoD, RJ started being a little more forthcoming with answers to quite a few things, among them was Asmo information from Boston and NY booksignings:<br /><br /><i>...and he told us all to most importantly look for MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY<br />-Boston signing<br /><br />However, he emphasized OPPORTUNITY as the key to knowing<br />Asmo's killer, even over motive (which got a mention). <br />-Boston signing<br /><br />...Timing is what you should focus on. He repeated about how someone on the internet figured it out.<br />-NY signing<br /><br />He again confirmed that the facts are there by the end of Book FIVE <br />-NY signing<br /><br />The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.<br />-NY signing</i><br /><br />So, as you can see, RJ has provided more fodder with those factors; Timing, Motive and Opportunity. Also of note was the reasons given for the DO not being able to transmigrate Asmo, those being; How and Where he died. And of course, he reitterated that all the clues to solve the mystery were included up to the end of tFoH. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-19 01:14:40
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
<br />There is no evidence that the assassination was premeditated. It would be quite a chance the assassin was taking to assume that Asmodean at some stage would wander down that corridor. It is much more likely the assassin was doing something else and turned the corner only to find Asmodean facing them.<br /><br />Apart from that, the strength in the Power argument holds no weight at all. The weakest Forsaken could easily kill the strongest one if they wanted to. A knife in the back is what made Moghedien lethal to much stronger opponents, and even Moiraine proved that her knowledge of balefire could help her destroy a much stronger opponent in the form of Be'lal.<br /><br />Even assuming the strength part, I don't think there is any evidence at all that Asmodean is stronger in the Power than Graendal. If Moridin wonders who will finish first in a duel between Sammael and her, then I certainly would rate her in the same class as some of the stronger males. Best of all, the woman herself openly threatened kill Sammael if he threw one more insult her way - so much for her fearing to encounter the stronger male Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


