# w_comment

created: 2004-10-26 20:56:20
subject: <b>Mmmm... errors</b>
body:
&lt;b/&gt;(On a side-note: I think the travelling Sorelia taught Cadusuane is the type Avi did so she might get over her portal problem soon when that info reaches her.)&lt;b&gt;<br /><br />Now for some answering of comments.<br /><br /><br />&quot;what about the sul'dam that can see the weaves then?&quot;<br />Erquu <br /><br />The sul'dam see the weaves when they're connected to someone by the adam. Basically, they're milking off their damane holding the power at the moment. You'll notice that usually when this is mentioned, their always connected and their damamne is holding the power.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;So, do you think she had her first touching earlier? Would the Wise Ones let her go over the Dragonwall knowing she had? Or start teaching her before she went to Rhuidean?<br />Light in the Night &quot;<br /><br />I think she did. She knew she was going to be a wise one. She joined the crossing because she didn't want to go. And they really couldn't do much about it. (cept punish her when she got back)<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;RJ doesn`t need to use that information any more.&quot;<br />jofraz <br /><br />that's like saying RJ doesn't need to use the info about Min's veiwings anymore. Or Perrins wolf sense. Or elaida's fortelling...or even Nicola's taveren-spotting ability. I doubt he would have given something that important to her is it wasn't important in more that just one scene.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;I'm fairly sure that they hadn't discovered Unravelling or Unweaving, or woteva, in the Age of Legends&quot;<br />Steel Heron <br /><br /><br />Avi says that the Wise ones basically teach it to everyone of them who can channel. Something about, if you can make it, you can unravel it. Unraveling your stitches was the analogy we were given. Makes me think it isn't really that new. Perhaps it was big in the AOL. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />so, while I do agree with your theory, I think it jumps to conclusions too fast...and I also think that if she could, she would've done it already. <br />


created: 2004-11-22 18:31:52
subject: <b>Suldam and weave seeing</b>
body:
Wasn't there a time in the palace when a suldam was crying because she was looking at the weave of air around her?  She wasn't with a damane then.<br /><br />I think Avienda is my favorite character.  Her emotions are typical for her age and she seems to be maturing in a normal fashion.  She is gaining confidence as she learns more.  <br /><br />I think it is funny that the AS are introduced as the &quot;ones who know it all&quot; about channeling and then we see the WO and windfinders, even the damane in what they do outclass them, but the AS still have that arragance that I find so annoying.  If I was a channeler, I would rather learn from anybody other than the tower.  Besides that the tower is too political.  I think the Salidar AS have at least improved the teaching part of the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">:0 Alea Sedai :0</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 09:22:30
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I never understood how people could say Olver was Cain.  Good job explaining it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 10:31:12
subject: <b>You are wrong</b>
body:
Although I agree that Gaidal Cain was not born as Olver, Gaidal, I remember R.J. saying that hero's of the horn that weaved back into the pattern can take over the body they will be weaved into INSTEAD of being born into that body. That means that Gaidal was not weaved into Olver right when Olver was born, he was weaved into Olver sometime AFTER Olver was born, my guess was, around the time that his dad died and when Olver met Mat.


created: 2004-01-16 11:49:28
subject: <b>As Etzel said</b>
body:
RJ told us Olver is not Gaidal Cain.<br /><br />Asha_Man 1: Where did RJ say HotH are weaved into another body, and not reborn? Birgitte, herself, says she was reborn countless times as another person, and only when she died and went to T`a`R did she know who she was.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 12:35:09
subject: <b>RJ stated very clearly</b>
body:
RJ stated very explicitly that Heroes are not born Heroes. The essence/soul of the Hero is placed &quot;onto&quot; the person when the time is right. Kinda like coming of age. Although in Olver's case, he's still prepubescent. And so he may not be Gaidal Cain yet, but he will be. Oh, he will be.<br /><br />He stated this in one of his online interviews - surely it's catalogued and stored somewhere on this site.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 13:11:59
subject: <b>to jofraz</b>
body:
In tEotW, shortly after the group reaches Shadar Logoth Thom says that the dead can be reborn or even take the body of one living, so it is not to be joked about.  I'd give you the exact quote but I don't have my books with me, it's close enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 14:05:02
subject: <b>Of course he isn't</b>
body:
I voted thumbs up for this theory because I think it is true. However, I think it was not very eloquently put. In additino, I too believe that RJ stated Olver is not Gaidal Cain.<br /><br />One more thing, regarding humperole's post. I must disagree. I think (though I do not remember from when or where) that RJ has explicitly stated that Heroes are indeed born heroes. Their souls do not simply take over another soul's body or become melded with that second soul to somehow &quot;make&quot; that person into a Hero. I believe Birgitte's case illustrates this rather well. To have a full-blown Hero suddenly thrown into the real world is completely unprecedented. Furthermore, Birgitte speaks of how when she is reborn she never knows that she is reborn. When she is in T'A'R she knows that she is a Hero, but not when living in the real world, except in the very unique case in which she currently is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 15:24:43
subject: <b>Jim</b>
body:
The SL reference you cite, I don`t recall specifically.<br />Could you cite chapter and verse?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 16:14:28
subject: <b>Jofraz</b>
body:
The reference you were after is TEOTW, Chapter 19 Shadow's Waiting, about 3 to 4 pages from the start of the chapter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 18:43:22
subject: <b>Where are you people getting your RJ quotes?</b>
body:
I am very amused that two different people claim that RJ explicitly said the opposite of each other. I use http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator.htm<br />for my quotes which is a compilation of newsgroup discussions and somethings that I think are from dragonmount.<br /><br />What sites does everybody else use?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> u (4n'7 54y |7 |n 1337, |7 |5n'7 w0r7h 54y|n6!<br />(Don't expect me to translate this, o you who are unenlightened)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 23:30:52
subject:
<b>Beat me to it, Etzel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
But you're absolutely right: Jordan said that Olver was NOT Cain. Surprising, yes, but I think that the reason most people overlooked this is because that was the same Q&amp;A that RJ told us that we haven't seen Demandred as his alter ego. That was much bigger and more important theory news (killed off a whole section, really) so this got overlooked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 02:26:16
subject: <b>Don't forget...</b>
body:
I could not find a quote anywhere saying that Olver was NOT Gaidal, specifically.  Since that to me leaves this issue open to discussion, I wanted to point out the very prominent (and imho very sensible) theory that Moggy made Gaidal a small boy and spun him out like she made Birgitte a small girl, but then spun her out as an adult later.  The one major flaw in this one is how would he survive?  No one was there to bond him a warder.  Just throwing it out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mind is in constant need of stimulation.  If boredom was an olmypic sport, I'd have been dq'd for steroids.<br />Yarr...I am...not attractive - The Sea Captain<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />If wishes were wings, pigs would fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 12:10:41
subject: <b>I agree with Asha_Man1 and humperole</b>
body:
Who's to say when the hero's soul goes from TAR to the body.  It could be at puberty, earlier, later, or at birth, but I don't think it HAS to be at birth.<br /><br />Also, could someone either exactly quote RJ on him saying Olver is not Cain or post a link where he says it.<br /><br />Personally I think Olver is Cain, but I'm open to changing my mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 20:01:49
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
RAFO-no need to even get into that now cause of the situation we are in and how at the moment looks like there is no argument that he is cain in the first place!


created: 2004-01-18 18:27:17
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
that you're misunderstanding any comments Jordan made about the heroes not being heroes from birth. He doesn't mean that there is some other soul occupying a body up to a certain age that is then replaced by a Hero, he means that the hero's soul is indeed in the body at birth, only they won't definitely be heroes in this life. Depending on the choices they make, they might not be heroes at all.<br /><br />It will still be the same soul though.


created: 2004-01-19 06:59:46
subject: <b>Jim's point is a good one.</b>
body:
RJ did say that Olver wasn't Gaidal reborn, but Thom's comment about souls of the dead taking over living, could definitely happen in Olver's case. Everyone that Olver knew is dead. If Gaidal or the pattern or someone else decided that his soul needed to be reborn ? Taking over an orphan would be the idea candidate IMO. There would be no-one around to know that Olver has changed. This may or may not be the case ? But it would be one way for Olver to Gaidal, but not Gaidal reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 12:49:21
subject: <b>Cain has to be around somewhere</b>
body:
Considering the effort RJ went to, to introduce us to cain and then fairly much hit us over the head with the fact that he had entered the living world we know Cain must be around somewhere. We can also speculate that the light will ensure that all its heros will be around come the last battle, if not then the light is pretty useless. Therefore we can conclude that cain must be old enough to have some effect on events. This rules out Cain being anybody younger than oliver. We know Oliver will make a difference, probably with the rescuing of Moraine, if not in other areas. So unless somebody can come up with a more likly candidate to be Cain, or show me the actual quote where RJ says Oliver is not Cain, I will still consider Oliver to be Cain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>'One day all these cookie-cutter New-Wave ripoff bands are going to combine Voltron-style into a giant Mecha Ian Curtis and destroy downtown London. NME will give their rampage a 9 out of 10'</i> - QC on the Killers</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-24 14:10:40
subject: <b>To lukasj</b>
body:
Why would he need to be bonded by anyone? Birgitte being bonded by Elayne wasn't because Birgitte had been wounded by being thrown out of T'A'R, it was because Birgitte had taken an almost mortal wound a bit earlier...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 05:35:44
subject: <b>I think Cain is Olver</b>
body:
There's too many things that could account for the time differencial and too many similarities and things that make-you-go-hmmmm. If Cain already left TAR, then where is he? Is he a baby about to so some ass kicking from the crib? What's the point of the whole Birgette plot line with the whole soulmate aspect if they wont meet again?<br />Even if he's not cain &quot;right now&quot; he still could be.<br /><br />I think we'll find out when Mat blows the horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-28 17:33:07
subject: <b>Hello PEOPLE</b>
body:
Does anybody remember when Min was with the AS delegation from Salidar was in Caemlyn. There was a Warder that Min talked to who was older, much older and carried two swords, in the fashion of Cain.  Another thing that you all keep either ignoring or just glossing over is that Birgete (SP) says that she was always reborn and just did what she had to do every time. No where do I ever recall her saying that she just took over a body at some point to begin again. Sorry folks but you all need to pay attention to what you are reading if you are going to try to make arguments about things.


created: 2004-01-28 17:37:04
subject: <b>I Think...</b>
body:
That Olver is Gaidal Cain. For the most part the evidence seems to point to Olver. When Elayne and Nyneave start talking to Briggite in the world of dreams Gaidal apears one or two times. In one such meeting it states that briggite is taller than gaidal. As mat begins to get to know Olver he makes the remark that olver would always be short even for a carhinien and that his head would never grow into his ears or nose. basically he would never be considered handsome. this supports the fact that briggite appears to be attracted to generally the ugliest men around. I don't have my books with me but i will try to post the specific quotes later. I know the timeline doesn't fit with him being born as Gaidal so he would have to have &quot;taken the body over&quot; as it were.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-01 00:44:31
subject: <b>He isnt.</b>
body:
I asked RJ if he was and he said he wasnt. It was proof enough for me. But my theory on why was exactly the same, never got around to submitting it. Cheers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 00:41:32
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I always wondered about that, myself. I'm glad someone put up that theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beka Sedai<br /><br />fell for you like a suicide from a bridge</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 13:46:06
subject: <b>Voted No ..</b>
body:
I had never even thought of Gaidal being Olver. But knowing Gaidal has to show up some way, some how &#8230; True Love Never Dies&#8230;.  All the HotH have to be in on the Last Battle &#8230;. and so forth, I have been trying to figure out how he could show up out of nowhere. Strangely enough this discussion has convinced me that Olver and Gaidal are one and the same.  Salient points of my conversion follow:<br /><br />Quoting Simon:<br />&quot;RJ did say that Olver wasn't Gaidal reborn&#8230;&quot; <br />If that is a correct quote, and being the trusting person I am, I have no reason to think it is not&#8230; Think about it.  I would say that RJ has to obey the first of the Aes Sedai oaths when it comes to his readers. Can't lie to the readers or they might not keep RingAFingO. But, the truth he speaks is not always the truth you hear.<br /><br />Now add that to what appears to be the post from RJ himself. If this isn't RJ, RJ's probably working on a lawsuit in the background despite the fact that the registered trademark symbol appears next to his name. Or unless he gave Mike or one of the admins permission to post in his name which I seriously doubt. He said:<br />&quot;Just to throw you a bone. I never said that Gaidal Cain is not Olver!&quot; <br /><br /> Of course in keeping with the first comment, he also never said that Gaidal Cain was Olver. But I looked at his statistics and he has only posted four times to the message boards, and this one single post to the Blackboard. That in itself would be a great topic for discussion. But getting back to the topic at hand:<br /><br />From Lucasj222:<br />&quot;&#8230; theory that Moggy made Gaidal a small boy and spun him out like she made Birgitte a small girl, but then spun her out as an adult later. The one major flaw in this one is how would he survive? No one was there to bond him a warder.&quot;<br /><br />I agree with this theory. As far as the flaw mentioned, that's not an issue. As another post noted, Birgitte almost died because she had been injured before being zapped out of T'A'R. Hence Gaidal wouldn't have needed the healing Birgitte did.  If you remember the scene where Birgitte was made a child, she remarked that she remembered who she was, and being an adult. (I don't have the exact quote as I'm writing during lunch time at work with no book available. This is right towards the end of tFoH)  If this child thing is part of  Moggy's MO then she has used it frequently. And everytime she encounters Birgitte she makes remarks implying that she had something to do with Gaidal's exodus from the dream world.  <br /><br />What bothered me at first was Gaidal taking over the body of a child. That's no way for a HotH to act. However, if he was just thrown out of T'A'R like Birgitte, he arrived in Randland at the age Moggy made him. Of course on arriving in the real world he would need some story to explain why he had no parents. So he makes up a story about being an orphan. Or maybe he uses something that happened to him in one of his past lives.  To me it all fits. Gaidal is Olver.<br /><br />


created: 2004-09-01 19:14:55
subject: <b>What did I miss ?</b>
body:
It's been written twice I think that all the Heroes of the Horn had to be present at the last battle. That can't be right, Prophecy distinctly says that the Horn of Valere will summon the dead heroes to fight at the Last Battle. If all the Heroes are alive, who will be summoned ? Oh wait...<br /><br />Fog appears, etc.<br />Rand : Hey ! It's Hurin !<br />Hurin : Yes, Lord Rand.<br />Rand : Where are the others, Hurin ?<br />Hurin : Reborn, Lord Rand.<br />Rand : And when did you die ?<br />Hurin : I don't know, Lord Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-22 08:36:20
subject: <b>Birgitte says</b>
body:
at some point, during a conversation with Nynaeve and/or Elayne, that were she to be spun out right that moment they would find her unborne OR as a small child. This seems to indicate that more than 9 months could have gone by in the real world during the time they were in WoD. Now if 9 months can go by in no time what so ever, than the timeline dosn't matter and Olver could be Cain!


created: 2004-09-25 03:25:47
subject: <b>He is not</b>
body:
RJ stated that he was not all-ready, Olver will play a part in the rescue of Moraine (if she is alive) Dont forgot he is really good at the game foxes an snakes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-25 08:15:47
subject: <b>Support your statement</b>
body:
I've seen others say that, RJ said Olver wasn't Cain, but I've never seen the actual quote, where can I find it???


created: 2004-09-25 08:21:23
subject: <b>Another thing!</b>
body:
Min has a vision about Birgitte where she sees her with a older and a much younger man, Min is certain that it is the same man. This must mean that Birgitte meets Cain again, and I think Olver is the most likely candidate.


created: 2004-10-06 10:02:13
subject: <b>a thought</b>
body:
The following message was Submitted by AirDuck     on 9/22/2004 8:36:20 AM:  <br />at some point, during a conversation with Nynaeve and/or Elayne, that were she to be spun out right that moment they would find her unborne OR as a small child. This seems to indicate that more than 9 months could have gone by in the real world during the time they were in WoD. Now if 9 months can go by in no time what so ever, than the timeline dosn't matter and Olver could be Cain! <br /><br />___________________________________________________________<br /> <br />some points:<br /><br />a) It does not necesserily indicate that 9 months could have passed. It could also indicate that a child still in the womb is without a soul i.e. the soul is present at birth, not conceivement.<br /><br />b) Since Birgitte says she would be unborne or a child that seems to indicate Cain would also be a child when reborn, and would not just hijack someone's elses soul<br /><br />c) Even if nine months could pass in the Real World while a few moments pass in the dreamworld, (and I think we know that time can pass at different speeds int the real world and in the dreamworld), time still can't pass BACKWARDS in one while it passes forwards in the other (i.e. timetravel is NOT possible) and tharefore Cain could not have been seen by Elayne in the dreamworld  and then later dissappear from the dreamwrld to be reborn as Olver at is birth.


created: 2005-04-14 11:04:56
subject: <b>Just a few thoughts</b>
body:
First of all, to Gaurinn:<br /><br />&quot;I think we know that time can pass at different speeds int the real world and in the dreamworld), <b>time still can't pass BACKWARDS in one while it passes forwards in the other</b> (i.e. timetravel is NOT possible)&quot;<br /><br />Why not? This is RJ's world, it doesn't have to follow the same laws of physics that ours does, this has been proven on several occasions, the biggest, IMO, is channeling in itself. Remember, the Heroes resides in the World of <i>Dreams</i>. Have you never had a dream where you traveled back in time?<br /><br />Secondly, to Robb44:<br /><br />&quot;RJ stated that he was not... Olver&quot;<br /><br />Show me the quote and I'll believe this. If you check this thread you'll see a post from someone I can only assume is RJ telling us, quite clearly, that <b>he never said Olver was not Gaidal Cain</b>.<br /><br />Well, that's all. Carry on, troops.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-08 16:07:32
subject: <b>RJ says:</b>
body:
CoT signing in Dayton, Ohio, 16-01-03:<br /><br />Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?<br />RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.<br /><br />Q: He's too old.<br />RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Xenocity</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-17 21:04:45
subject: <b>From Winter's Heart chapter 12</b>
body:
This on top of everything else I have seen tells me that Olver is Gaidal<br /><br />Min has a viewing of Birgitte - &quot;Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.&quot;


created: 2005-12-05 17:47:08
subject: <b>gaidal as older and younger man</b>
body:
Surely if Min sees Birgitte's auras and remarks that one woman couldn't possibly have that many adventures in a lifetime, then Min's seeing a lot more than one of Birgitte's lifetimes in her viewing.  Thus she can also see many lifetime's worth of Gaidal Cains dancing around Birgitte, too.  <br /><br />Usually when Birgitte is born she doesn't remember her other lives.  As her archetypical Birgitte in T'a'R, she remembers them.  She keeps on remembering into the waking world, too, until they start to fade.  They fade; they don't necessarily go away.  She's still the uber-Birgitte in her current instantiation.  <br /><br />This doesn't mean it's not Olver, though.  However, I think the quote from RJ's mouth at a book-signing (two posts above) cinches the discussion.  So, Olver has a big part to play, as we now see or infer from KoD, but he's not Gaidal, however much his description points to it.  And boy, does it ever!!  <br /><br />I need to look and see if there is a theory about who Olver really is, then, or if he'll &quot;just&quot; be a new hero of the horn, as was hinted to Hurin by Artur.<br /><br />-The Ilka


created: 2006-09-26 14:51:07
subject: <b>What Birgitte said</b>
body:
I agree with the problem with timing if Gaidal Cain was to be reborn as a hero. However, in the Fires of Heaven (page 525 in the English paperback), when Birgitte comes too in Egwene and Nynaeve's caravan she says:<br /><br />&quot;I am here as I am and I remember everything...I am here as I am. All is changed Gaidal is out there somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy....&quot;<br /><br />My money is on Olver being Gaidal Cain. <br />


created: 2006-10-03 09:51:46
subject: <b>Blending</b>
body:
I don't really care if Olver is Cain or not...I just enjoy reading the series...however here is a possible perspective, Blending.<br /><br />  Olver is not Cain because for right now he's just Olver.  To say that a HoTH just takes over ones soul is harsh and just seems to be too close to what a darkfriend or chosen would do.<br /><br />  It's already been made pretty clear that the time-line is wrong.  So, who's to say that a &quot;Hero&quot; persona is inlayed from birth. &quot;A hero is spun out when he/she is needed by the pattern&quot;.  And to me the pattern doesn't have all that much forethought to it to spin out a hero 20 years before it needs one(save for the dragon, but that's prophecy, not pattern).<br /> <br />  So that leaves us with more of a blending.  A Hero's persona is spun out, and put where it needs to be.  In this case maybe it was a 10 year old boy.  But that doesn't mean the effects are immediate.  As he grows and the patterns need grows, the hero persona blends with what is already there, creating the Hero that is needed.<br /><br />  So it's possible that Olver is and isn't Cain.  He may have the hero traits, it's just that they haven't blended yet.<br /><br />  Another thought, why does Olver have to be Cain??  Why can't he just be a character placed to help Mat decipher a way to defeat the Snakes and Foxes, end of role.


created: 2009-08-13 23:18:55
subject: <b>Olver WAS Gaidal</b>
body:
Wasn't there a prophecy regarding Moiraine's rescue which referred to &quot;he who is no longer&quot;?<br /><br />That could easily be a way of referring to Olver, who WAS Gaidal in T'A'R, but is now just Olver.  Which is exactly how HotH work; Birgette says she was always reborn without being Birgette, just a person with that potential.<br /><br />On top of that, there really isn't anyone else that fits with Birgitte as a character; we know most of the good swordsmen in Randland, and none of them are GC. IMO, Olver fits the bill, since even as a kid he gets into heaps of trouble but is also very resourceful and determined.  And Birgitte has shown considerable affection towards him, if only as a child.  I do think that when the horn is blowed, they will both appear, and Birgitte will realise that theyare out of sync and there will be a bit of tear-shedding, especially if one dies.


created: 2004-01-16 08:58:12
subject: <b>Two additons</b>
body:
I just found two other quotes I forgot to add:<br /><br />Hurin tells Rand in TGH, ch.30, pg.496 :&#8221;You can&#8217;t find bitterer rivals than House Riatin and House Damodred&#8221;.<br /><br />And in the Guide, ch.&#8220;The Aiel War&#8221;, we learn about Taringail Damodred&#8217;s death that &#8220;he was assassinated in 984, leaving all plans unexecuted. Most sources believe the assassination was ordered by House Riatin of Cairhien as a means of preventing any coup by the heir to House Damodred, but there were rumors that it was done by someone loyal to Morgase, to protect her from Taringail's ambition.&#8221;<br /><br />Even if the killer was someone else (like Thom), these two quotes show the great hate between the two Houses and that assassinations are common among them.<br />


created: 2004-01-16 09:30:58
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
This is very good breakdown of an easily overlooked plot within NS. I have a different interpretation for one aspect. You argue that Jarna (the had of the BA)seems to be in support of Moraine becoming the queen of Cairhen, I would argue the opposite. Barthanes is a DF, and I feel that the shadow would be very happy with having a DF for a king of a powerful nation like Cairhen. It seems more likely to me that Jarna hired the people to after Moraine (this would more easily explain the boldness of forging the Amyrlin's signature). It also adds a good explaination of how the assassin new so much in TV. Whether or not Jarna or Barthanes hired the assassin, it seems the goal is the same - for Barthanes to gain the throne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 10:19:55
subject: <b>Barthanes</b>
body:
Barthanes is also a Damodred. Nevertheless he is not mentioned in the talk between Jarna &amp; Moiraine. <br />Plus, it's never said that Galldrian and Barthanes fought for the Throne at the time of New Spring.<br />Also that Galldrian won the Throne shows that the Shadow probably didn't support Barthanes then. <br /><br />Therefore I believe Barthanes wasn't such powerful within House Damodred and ordered Moiraine's death. <br /><br />We don't know how long he has been High Seat of House Damoded or a DF but I rather think that Barthanes became only later the aternative to Moiraine. <br />Maybe the reason why he became High Seat was the support of the Shadow. <br /><br />Finally if the Shadow, especially the BA really wanted to kill Moiraine they had probably sent a black Sister to kill her as they kill other people in their way.<br /><br />For these reasons I believe the Shadow/the BA wanted to have Moiraine on the Sun Throne, too. <br />Maybe the Shadow even imagined the possibility to hire the new Aes Sedai Moiraine for the BA as the Shadow did with Barthanes as a DF.


created: 2004-01-16 11:39:21
subject: <b>I agree with most of the theory</b>
body:
I think it was a Cairhien behind the murder plot, not the BA.<br /><br />But kcf expressed my opinion, that the BA would not want Moiraine to be Queen. They would prefer a DF.<br /><br />As for who in Cairhien sent the assasin, Riatin is a very good possibility, since he won and Moiraine is still alive. <br />Maybe the third prequel will shed more light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 11:53:39
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Your theory was short and simple. I agree with you. The BA, more or less, wanted a Aes Sedai on the throne. If they had a Queen on a throne, then it would boost not only the AS standing, but the BA standing in that country and through out the world as well. Ba disgiused like AS could get away with allmost anything, anwsering only to the WT, and plant lots of DF to keep an eye on their AS queen. So they would not try to kill Moiraine, even if they did know that she was searching for the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />So your theory makes seance to me. It may have one or two holes in it, but I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> mentaly insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm the unknown Forsaken also known as NightRaider<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />user of BALEFIRE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Dent Stringer 1912~2004<br />Rest in peace Grandpa, you earned it</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 12:51:37
subject: <b>Why I Disagree</b>
body:
Since it is the first vote that disagrees, I figured I should say why<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><br />Caniedrin answers: &#8221;Gold. Why else? You still have..the Dark One&#8217;s luck...turning just then...or that shaft...would have found...your heart. He should have...told me...she&#8217;s Aes Sedai...instead of just saying...to kill her first.&#8221;<br /></b></font><br /><br />The word 'first' at the end implies a lot of things<br />That he was to kill more than one person.<br />He was to start with her.<br />It also implies that the person who sent him knew she was not alone.<br />None of the Cairhienin would know she was with Lan.<br />Infact the last time she was sighted on the docks she was alone.<br /><br />Unless the man on the docks with the scar is Caniedrin it is highly unlikely that he is here to kill Moiraine.<br /><br />From reading that scene I always thought Lan was the target.<br />Unless he followed Lan and Bukama from the Aiel fighting I doubt he could be so close to them.<br /><br />I am still trying to reason who the 'he' is that gave Caniedrin his orders but when we figure that out we will know.<br /><br />At this point I am pretty convinced it was not a ploy to kill Moiraine. It was Lan that was ment to die.<br /><br />More when I get home and get my hands on my copy of New s<br />Spring.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 14:11:00
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
Well-written and argued. I agree, and now I want to read New Spring even more!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 23:34:40
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
Interesting. At first I was inclined to agree but now, after reading Shadow Killer's comments, I am thinking about it in a different light. I think that perhaps he was working for the BA, and that the orders changed in (can't remember the town where Moiraine escaped Cadsuane) to include Lan. This fits with sk's suggestion that he was there to kill more than one person, and also that Moiraine was a target.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 05:25:23
subject: <b>To shadow killer</b>
body:
<b> The word 'first' at the end implies a lot of things<br />That he was to kill more than one person.<br />He was to start with her.<br />It also implies that the person who sent him knew she was not alone.<br />None of the Cairhienin would know she was with Lan.<br />Infact the last time she was sighted on the docks she was alone. <br />Unless the man on the docks with the scar is Caniedrin it is highly unlikely that he is here to kill Moiraine.<br /><br />From reading that scene I always thought Lan was the target.<br />Unless he followed Lan and Bukama from the Aiel fighting I doubt he could be so close to them.<br /><br />I am still trying to reason who the 'he' is that gave Caniedrin his orders but when we figure that out we will know.<br /><br />At this point I am pretty convinced it was not a ploy to kill Moiraine. It was Lan that was ment to die. </b><br /><br />I interpret &quot;first&quot; so, that Caniedrin got the order to kill the woman first, she is his prime target, even if she has other dangerous companions with her.<br /><br />Besides, Caniedrin has gold from Cairhien in his purse and his employer was a man. <br />That is strong evidence that he got the order from an Cairhienin, i.e. Gorthanes who knew that Moiraine is in the Borderlands (and not e.g. from the BA).<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-01-17 19:54:04
subject: <b>I agree with Green Gaidin</b>
body:
I think that Lan was the target because he is lucky and that Moiraine had to be killed first because she was in the way. Which means that the BA ordered the ambush.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 14:34:36
subject: <b>BA support for Moiraine as queen</b>
body:
Here's thought, prefaced by the fact that I haven't yet read NS, but just from reading the comments. Seems to me that the BA might be perfectly happy to have Moiraine as queen rather than Barthanes. She might not be BA, but to paraphrase Darth Vader, perhaps she can be turned.  We know that's possible.  So I don't see her lack of BA status as being an argument for why the BA would support Barthanes rather than her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 17:18:30
subject: <b>The Black Ajah are still Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I would bet that they would rather see an Aes Sedai on the throne than a Darkfriend.  Remember Delana's initial reaction to Aran'gar - Aran'gar tells her that she would obey a begger who gave her the proper signal.  Delana then thinks no matter how important Aran'gar thought she was, &quot;none stood higher than Aes Sedai.&quot;  She was also disappointed that a sister who was not a DF had to die to provide Aran'gar's cover story.  Alviarin works for the benefit of the Tower as well - she might be unscrupulous, out for her own power, and tyrannizing the Amyrlin when she has the whip hand, but she still tries to  &quot;advise&quot; Elaida in what she perceives as the Tower's best interests, when Mesaana hasn't given her orders to do something else.  Also, I took the note that the DFs gave Domon in &quot;The Great Hunt&quot; to mean that Galldrian was a Darkfriend.  It could easily have been a forgery, but it is not too out of character for Cairhienin to have the heads of the two most powerful Houses, and bitter rivals to boot, both be Darfkfriends and unaware of each other's allegiance.  If Galldrian was a DF, the BA wouldn't care which of them got the throne. It is also highly doubtful that they knew about Barthanes.  Not all Darkfriends know about each other, and the BA sisters only know three others apeice.  It has been made abundantly clear that the BA is only one of the Shadow's weapons, and not the elite of Darkfriend society.  More and more, we are seeing ordinary Darkfriends succeeding at or being trusted with important missions that the BA failed at or are subordinated to non-channelers in.  It's yet another facet of Aes Sedai arrogance, that they assume they are one step below the Forsaken in the grand scheme of things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-19 11:37:00
subject: <b>Confusing things...</b>
body:
I disagree with the theory that because RJ did say ghosts/ heros can take a persons body (this is closer to Fain, when SL messed him up, and that treasure hunter guy who tried to get Rand, Perrin and Mat to help him with his gold) but does not relate to this instance.


created: 2004-01-19 12:33:06
subject: <b>erm</b>
body:
frogman, wrong theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 12:53:20
subject: <b>moiraine</b>
body:
ha yeah the same thing occured to me aswell after some thought. <br /> But after some further thought on this topic i spawned a qauestion/theory of my own.... perhaps when moiraine returns in the current series she will rule cairhien. rand doesnt really need an advisor any longer so she would just be waisting her talents by taking over that spot again.<br />i dunno ... i dont think she could really fit that spot because she belongs out in the world where everything is happening and stuff  ( much the same reason why she couldnt be the head of a ajah or amyrlin)i thik her talents would be more sufficiently utilized else where ... but it jsut occured to me as a small possibility .<br />in any case i would be completely content with her doing anything so long as she returns <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Do Or dO nOt ThErE iS nO tRy<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-30 06:58:53
subject: <b>Barthanes</b>
body:
I simply believe it was Barthanes on the docks there.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-01 23:06:12
subject: <b>I think it was the Shadow.</b>
body:
Jarna was a Sitter; the Black Ajah likes to remain hidden, and the conversation with Moiraine seems part of her facade.<br /><br />Additionally, the Black Ajah knew nothing about the Dragon Reborn at the time; they didn't figure that out until they tortured and killed Tamra, and that was considerably after Moiraine had been raised Aes Sedai.  Moiraine was up to something; the Black Ajah knew it, and they could well have figured out that she, too, was hunting for the Dragon Reborn.  Only when they came to that realization would it be necessary for them to kill her.<br /><br />Also, Moiraine and Lan were attacked by a Kandori; how far does Daes Daemar reach?  It seems far more likely that he was a Darkfriend; they exist everywhere.  His view of killing also seems to fit this.


created: 2004-02-23 15:53:49
subject: <b>It is obviously a Cairheinen plot</b>
body:
I can't believe so many of you think the BA had anything to do with the attempted assassination of Moraine.  It is so obvious that it was Gorthanes who had hired the assassin for another Cairheinen.  It was either house Riatin or it was Barthanes making sure he was the successor to house Damodred.  Duh.  A two year old could figure this puzzle out, even Siuan Sanche.


created: 2004-01-20 14:13:40
subject: <b>Hey!</b>
body:
You could have at least mentioned my name, too! So I guess it's only right that I get the first response.<br /><br />BTW, I liked your analogies!<br /><br />For those that haven't, I recommend it. &quot;The Song of Saidin&quot;, by me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 15:34:47
subject: <b>Interesting Take!</b>
body:
I love how the mathematical models tie everything together so perfectly.<br /><br />And, it it's good to get another &quot;Academic&quot; theory on the TP - those are always my favorites <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Indeed I must also recommend &quot;Song of Saidin&quot; by Light in the Night - it's excellent.  I also wrote a theory (it amounts to an extension of LitN's) which, though less well-received, seems good to me as well.  Check 'em both out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 23:04:16
subject: <b>apologies for missing citations!</b>
body:
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! As you may have noticed, I cited no theory directly---I was off-line at the time, and couldn't check the names. Consider it done retroactively.


created: 2004-01-21 05:49:12
subject: <b>ruff......</b>
body:
why?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-25 00:43:20
subject: <b>another analogy for steddings</b>
body:
Reading this very interesting theory, I came up with another analogy for explaining what goes on in a stedding.  Imagine you are with a group of blind people, walking outside in the sunlight, and then you all go into a dark cave.  Only you, the sighted person, will notice that it's dark, and only you will feel the effects of sensory deprivation.  It doesn't mean someone turned off the sun, but you've gone to a place where there is an obstruction between you and the sun, and because you are sighted, you feel the obstruction more keenly that you blind compadres.  So too, in a stedding, it isn't that there's no OP, but there's an obstruction there that only channelers can feel.<br /><br />Incidently, could wells (like what Nynaeve &amp; co used in Far Madding)work in a stedding (like carrying around a flashlight, to keep the analogy)??<br /><br />I really like the science history.  Isn't that the truth, that yesterday's intellectual rebels are today's old guard, against whom you can argue at the cost of your academic reputation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-25 17:25:16
subject: <b>very good</b>
body:
and thank you for keeping it simple so the common man (like me) could read it and understand it. This theory was very well written and intersting to read, thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 09:16:13
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
This is the most thorough and best thought out theory I have read in a long while. And I recall your theory too, Light in the Night. Credit to both of you. <br /><br />But in wich category is &quot;The Song of Saidin&quot; located? I would like to compare it to this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-27 23:46:34
subject: <b>good but......</b>
body:
I can sing and i dont like math.  no seriously love to sing and i am a song leader at my church (its accapella) and on a normal basis sing the national anthom at BBall game <br /><br />I TAOTALY DISPISE MATH <br />that does not mean im not good at it<br /><br /><br />oh and does anyone remember that there are 2 other realy powerful sa'angrel <br />1)callandor<br />2) well the late Eye of the World<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duty is heavy as a mountain<br />Death, light as a feather<br />- a saying in shinar<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-30 14:35:53
subject: <b>That was awesome</b>
body:
That was singularly one of the best explanations of any WOT related issue that I have ever read. It was thorough, concise, and I pray tell that not even the Creator (RJ) could have done better


created: 2004-02-02 16:15:56
subject: <b>Neurotic correction</b>
body:
&gt;&gt;oh and does anyone remember that there are 2 other realy &gt;&gt;powerful sa'angrel <br />&gt;&gt;1)callandor<br />&gt;&gt;2) well the late Eye of the World<br /><br />Eye of the World was just a big pool o' saidin, not an angreal... I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I amuse myself.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-27 00:56:55
subject: <b>good thoughts but you missed two things...</b>
body:
Old Pythaggy and his brethern were hiding a nasty little secret that they discovered...the Alogon. Numbers that were not rational. This discovery went totally against the Greek concept of bloody everything so, they kept it hidden. The Alogon completely wreck the Greek philophies of music.<br /><br />Second, don't be so quick to give sole credit to Boethius for discovering and spreading Greek musical ideals. Granted, he was the lead guy but, there were other theorists involved as well. Not to mention that Boethius and company grossly misunderstood what the Greeks were about. So much so that the system of music theory that followed was completely different than that of the ancient Greeks. Boethius recognized this and did as much as he could to preserve the spirit of the original ideas as he understood them. The theory did not, however, remain intact. The scale (or mode, if you prefer) contructions were given Greek names in honor of the elaborate system/philsophy. <br /><br />I'n not sure how this impacts your theory. Heck, maybe it helps. I'll leave that to you to figure out. :-)<br /><br />-Boethius


created: 2004-03-27 13:01:07
subject: <b>Yes, I am aware of these things.</b>
body:
I was not claiming any particular accuracy of transmission on Boethius's part, nor did I claim that he was the only theorist to transmit his understanding of Greek theory to later theorists. He was however the biggest name among them. Medieval misunderstanding of Greek scalar construction is also not being called into question here; the point is that the ideas, however inaccurately transmitted, prevailed for a very long time (it's a little funny to read how Zarlino gets confused when he can't reconcile his own reading of Boethius (essentially correct, at least in reference to scalar construction, IIRC) with what he had previously learnt about him). The only concepts relevant to my theory were the three musics, and the mathematical elegance of expressing musical intervals through simple ratios.<br /><br />I was already worried that giving two names and a rough outline would be too much (see some of the comments above); imagine what a full list of references to anybody that ever mentions the music of the spheres would have caused! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-27 17:26:44
subject: <b>none</b>
body:
Don't get me wrong - it's a good theory. Actually, most people don't even know who the heck Boethius was. I never expected to find the name metioned here much less what he did! I'm assuming you, too, are a musician? <br /><br />You might find the book &quot;Alogon&quot; interesting. Author is Ed Roth? Rothstein? I can't remember and I have the book in storage. Sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />What I find most humorous is that fact that the system that dominates European music for centuries is based on , more or less, a lie. Or, at best, a faulty discovery. <br /><br />-Bo


created: 2004-04-04 19:01:37
subject: <b>well, the system itself...</b>
body:
...isn't a lie; it's just the mistaken identification with the Greek system. And yes, guilty as charged. My current field is the fifteenth century.


created: 2005-03-16 17:12:39
subject: <b>I hate making headlines!</b>
body:
Nice theory... Didn't get the tomatopart, though. --- Oh, wait - I got it now... Ha Ha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-06 13:21:08
subject: <b>musica humana</b>
body:
if the creator's power is the music of the spheres,<br />the dark one's (the true power) is the music of the humans...<br /><br />satanism states that we are god. god made us in his image and even jesus said we're all gods<br /><br />the creator's music is what drives the universe...it's the macrocosm to our microcosm. the dark one's music is what drives the individual, if we choose to create our own lives. otherwise we can put faith in the creator, or the pattern or the wheel to put everything right.<br /><br />if you've heard the song be quick or be dead..&quot;the snake eyes in heaven, the beast in your head&quot;<br />snake eyes, dice, chance, the pattern. the snake biting its own tail, a symbol linked with the wheel of time in indian mythology and aes sedai (servants of all) are servants to god, by using his power. therefore they wear a sign of devotion to him.<br /><br />the beast in your head...self explanatory. from baal's face showing up in rand and his mates' mind's eyes to flecks of light floating inside your eyes (the window to the soul). and people channeling the true power can't see eachother doing it. that's because it's not as interconnected as the one power.<br /><br />even look at the names. lucifer tried bringing us light, the TRUTH. the true power<br />God says he is the only ONE. the one power<br /><br />the third side...corruption, the taint on the source...machin shin and...the shaddow of shaddar logoth. that's the true evil. that's what screws the pattern up.<br /><br />the taint was brought about by the dark one. and the shaddow that waits at shaddar logoth was basically a tool of the creator before it became corrupt.<br /><br />and the machin shin is straight up analogy of how the ways (to enlightenment, either one), are roamed by a parasite of doubt, not believing, and if left there long enough will destroy your mind.<br /><br />gawrsh...i wish the admins woulda posted my carlos castaneda theory...o well i'll write it again, and better. i just don't know where it would go


created: 2004-01-20 12:12:58
subject: <b>Other evidence that he is in the south...</b>
body:
At some point, there is a meeting of a couple of the forsaken (I can't recall who, where, or when) and the comment is made 'events in south have Demandred written all over them' - obviously a paraphrase, but it gets the point across.<br /><br />Overall, I can't say that I agree. Demandred is Demandred - he isn't posing as anyone. I get the feeling that he is travelling around a lot and influences several proxies - possibly Mesema, Aswuna, Taim, etc. I guess it is possible that the boots indicate that he's hanging out in Illian, but there are many other possibilities - he likes that style, he wants the other forsaken to think he is in Illian, that's what his old pair of boots from AoL looked like, he was briefly in Illian for some reason got boots and left, etc.<br /><br />It's an interesting piece of evidence, but doesn't hold much water.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 13:43:32
subject: <b>It's Rahvin</b>
body:
...tall and dark and slender, the silver in his black hair giving him a distinguished look...<br /><br />The &quot;distinguished look&quot; is what you need to look at here. The &quot;wings&quot; of silver give this appearance to Rahvin, and he is also described as &quot;dark&quot;.<br /><br />Most people fail to put the pieces together in relation to what they were arguing about. At this point, Be'lal is planning to kill Rand and get his hands on Callandor. Rahvin is the one that doesn't go along with this plan. This is shown later, when Mat listens under the window in Caemlyn. He hears Rahvin order Comar to kill Elayne, because he fears that Be'lal might use her to acquire the Sun throne, which Rahvin also has designs for. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 14:01:21
subject: <b>Light in the Night is right</b>
body:
Demandred, unlike Rahvin, is never described as having streaks of grey hair. As for the first reaction: at the same place this &quot;the events in the south have Demandred written all over them&quot;, it indeed also mentions the reason why this is so typical for Demandred: the use of proxies. We know Demandred has some Asha'man for &quot;proxies&quot;, and there are some suspicions on his other proxies, like Masema, Weiramon, and other known or suspected Darkfriends (after the tPoD chapter, Weiramon certainly is a known Darkfriend, Masema is less clear).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 20:02:58
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
sry, its probubly Rahvin, but good try i have not seen anything like that so complements are in order for originality.


created: 2004-01-21 03:41:46
subject: <b>weiramon DF?</b>
body:
why do you say weiramon is DF?<br />there is no one as loyal in Rand's camp than him<br />even if he is a complete idiot. after all that is what <br />nobility is bred for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 09:30:52
subject: <b>Weiramon let the Seanchan nearly kill Rand in PoD...</b>
body:
...and I always believed that it was no accident that the Seanchan 'slipped' past Weiramon's forces during the pitched battle west of Illian when Rand was nearly killed.<br /><br />With allies like his, who needs enemies?  I think that it is pretty clear Weiramon is a DF.


created: 2004-01-21 10:11:28
subject: <b>Agree with Light in the Night</b>
body:
It's Rhavin. The description matches him and it fits with the plot.<br /><br />The boots only show that he is a lord but not necessarily a lord from Illian (even if especially Illian lords wear such boots).<br /><br />Sammael was already in Illian. <br />Therefore Demandred certainly wasn't there too (as also Sammael's comments in his talk with Graendal indicate).


created: 2004-01-21 13:33:54
subject: <b>Have to go with LitN and Etzel</b>
body:
Have always known that was Rahvin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 16:11:52
subject: <b>Why Weiramon is almost certainly DF</b>
body:
guttering flame, like I said, there's a chapter in tPoD where it becomes extremely clear... let me look it up for you. Here. Chapter 24, A Time for Iron, Bertome's POV. Weiramon says to Gedwyn (a known DF Asha'man): &quot;I don't care who you are. I won't take any more risks without a command direct from the lips of --&quot; and here he cuts off, realizing somebody (Bertome) overhears. <br />Now if this isn't a clear indication Weiramon and Gedwyn are both DFs, I don't know what is... and it also hits that Weiramon takes orders directly from Demandred, as that seems to be the Forsaken who has the most contact with the Asha'man. It is possible it's another Forsaken that Weiramon refers to, however.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 16:42:35
subject: <b>Yes, agreed on Weiramon</b>
body:
Maybe it's even more likely that Moridin is the man he is refering to, not Demandred.<br /><br />We know that Moridin orders the Asha'man, too.<br /><br />Plus, at Ishy's DF meeting in TGH, prologue, is a Tairen High Lord among the DF (who by the way and regarding this theory has also &quot;silver-worked boots&quot; ).<br /><br />It makes sense that Moridin commands again the DF he already commanded before he died. <br /><br />It's more likely that Moridin (together with Semirhage) has his hands in the matters of the Seanchan than Demandred.<br />Ishy also commanded Suroth.<br /><br />Finally, it seems Moridin sent Cyndane shortly before the Cleansing to a bearded arrogant DF who is an important man at this place and only wants to serve a Chosen (she kills him nevertheless). <br /><br />Sounds very much like Weiramon, especially that he only wants direct orders from someone important like in the scene in PoD.<br /><br />


created: 2004-01-22 18:40:07
subject: <b>what</b>
body:
What the heck have you been smoking? none of the forsaken are stupid enogh to return to illian. guy's already seen sammael Die............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What are the clouds <br />but an excuse for the sky<br />what is life <br />but an escape from death<br />	&quot;Kasagi Yabu&quot; James Clavell's Shogun<br /><br />I, am dying. I've been dying since the moment I was born.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 22:27:55
subject: <b>It's not Rhavin</b>
body:
The dream man is tall, dark and slender. Rhavin is not slender.<br /><br />Mat in A Message out of Shadow (TDR) said he had more than Rands height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders.<br /><br />THe Guide says he was a tall dark man of large build.<br /><br />In Fanning the Sparks (TFoH) Alteima said he had massive shoulders and a deep chest.<br /><br />Sorry Light in the Night the description doesn't fit.


created: 2004-01-23 16:17:12
subject: <b>If the boot fits</b>
body:
&quot;{Mat in A Message out of Shadow (TDR) said he had more than Rands height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders.&quot;}<br /><br />From the Guide: &quot;Demandred was tall and reasonably good-looking, though not so tall as LTT.&quot;<br /><br />TSR, Lanfear talking to Rand: &quot;You are LTT. Oh, physically, nothing about you is the same except your height,..&quot;<br /><br />They are all tall. Rahvin, Rand and Demandred in descending order. <br /><br />&quot;{THe Guide says he was a tall dark man of large build.&quot;}<br /><br />Several times we see Rahvin described as &quot;dark&quot;. I Couldn't find one mention of this trait in relation to Demandred.<br /><br />&quot;{In Fanning the Sparks (TFoH) Alteima said he had massive shoulders and a deep chest.&quot;}<br /><br />Large shoulders and a big chest does not preclude one from being considered slender, IMO. It mostly depends on who is doing the judging. In your theory we have Perrin making the comparison, and he a pretty good-sized young man. A lot of people would look slender in his eyes. Rand has been said to have shoulders almost as wide as Perrin and still called slender, too. <br /><br />You also conveniently left out what Alteima thinks a couple sentences later about Rahvin: &quot;He was darkly handsome, incredibly so, with wings of white at his temples.&quot;<br /><br /><br />I am never shy about admitting when I'm wrong. But in this instance I'm not. What would Demandred and Be'lal have to argue about in TDR?<br /><br />OTOH, Be'lal is planning to trap Rand in the Stone to get his hands on Callandor. According to Mesaana's plan, he is going to use Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene as bait to lure him there. If you will reread the section where Mat listens at the window, you will see that Rahvin already knew about the plan, and why he sent Comar to kill Elayne. You will also see he is still mad at Be'lal. <br /><br />Using clothing and physical descriptions to pin down Forsaken is almost worthless with the abilities they have. Even Lanfear who is described as the most beautiful woman anyone has ever seen uses illusion to make herself look younger. In T'A'R or the real world they can easily make themselves appear larger or thinner according to need or their sense of vanity.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-24 21:23:21
subject: <b>Re: If the boot fits</b>
body:
Light in the Night I&#8217;ve read all your arguments and still say it&#8217;s Demandred.<br /><br /><br />Build<br />The build part does not fit Rhavin. When Perrin described Rand in Saidin (48, TDR) he said &#8220;Rand was more slender, though still broad across the shoulders.&#8221; Perrin calls the man in the dream slender. It doesn&#8217;t make sense for Perrin to think Rand who significantly thinner than him is broad but Rhavin who is almost his size is slender.<br /><br />Colouring<br />I accept that the dark part of the description matches Rhavin, but while Demandred has not been described as dark he hasn&#8217;t been called pale either. There has been no description of Demandred other than his height and nose we can&#8217;t just assume that because Demandred hasn&#8217;t been called dark he's pale.<br /><br />Plot<br />Your arguments about the plot are good LitN, but the timing doesn&#8217;t fit. Be&#8217;lal only found out about Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve after they arrived in Tear. Mat heard Rhavin giving Comar his orders after travelling from Tar Valon to Caemlyn. Perrin had this dream way before any of that. The argument that Be&#8217;lal and Rhavin has no to meet has no more merit than Demandred meeting Rhavin.<br /><br />Disguise<br />I said it once I&#8217;ll say it again. No arguments about disguises are valid in this debate.<br /><br />Firstly I&#8217;ve checked the books again and as I said the Forsaken have never met with each other, in or out of T&#8217;A&#8217;R, in disguise. They just don&#8217;t do it.<br /><br />Secondly using disguise Demandred can make his hair any colour as he wants and make himself as dark or pale as he feels like.<br /><br />Thirdly if we do accept the use of disguises the three in the dream could be any of the living Forsaken including the woman.<br />


created: 2004-01-25 00:30:31
subject: <b>Re: Absolutely No One</b>
body:
I was not suggesting that he was disguising himself in the T'A'R meeting. Much more likely that Rahvin adds enhancements to his size to impress the women he is so fond of. <br /><br />BTW, Lanfear wears her disguise constantly.<br /><br />Another small matter; Be'lal and Mesaana conspired to get the girls to Tear. Graendal tells us of her involvement in the plan in LoC, Chap. 6, Threads Woven of Shadow. Here's the quote:<br /><br /> &quot;Mesaana in particular was annoyed, though she tried to hide it. She thinks Lews Therin soon will be in our hands, but then she has said the same every time. She was sure Be'lal would kill or capture him in Tear; she was very proud of that trap.&quot;<br /><br />'Selene' also planted evidence for them to find in the library of the White Tower, TDR, Chap. 26, Behind a Lock, which leads them to go to Tear. 'Selene' visits Rand in his dreams and induces him to take Callandor, and he has dreams of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve being forced into a cage, and SNARING THEM IN NETS.(reference to Be'lal, known as the NETWEAVER). TDR, Chap.32, The First Ship. (This takes place before Rand knows how to shield his dreams).  <br /><br />Saying that Be'lal didn't know they were coming is rather short-sided. If you will remember, the ship the girls were originally on got stuck and they asked to be put ashore. (This is when they first meet Aviendha). Then they board another ship to finish the journey. That's why they weren't snatched up by the BA immediately when they got to Tear; they weren't on the ship they left on. If you recall, the BA took the girls straight to Be'lal once they were located. (Did you think that whole little side-trip had no purpose? Or that it was just for us to meet Aviendha?)<br /><br />Of course me telling you this is rather unlikely to make you change your mind, and your arguments certainly aren't going to change mine. <br /><br />But, I'll ask you this question anyway. Since Be'lal only appears in TDR, what do you think that he and Demandred might have been arguing about? Do you think that Demandred was doing something in Illian, right under Sammael's nose? And if Demandred was doing something in Illian, shouldn't it be Sammael that was arguing with him for being in his territory, instead of arguing with Be'lal who is located in Tear?<br /><br />P.S. You seem to be taking offense at me because I was the first one to disagree, and people used my name in their replies. If it wasn't me, someone else would have w/o taking the time to try to explain why. I was only trying to give you some insight as to why most people believe it's Rahvin and not Demandred. <br /><br />Of course I expect the theory writer to defend their work, and you've done that and I admire you for it. Your idea has been discussed on the MB before, although it's been some time ago (over a year I think). This is why most of the people disagree with it, not because of me.       <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-25 17:28:01
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Why is this format so spread out?<br /><br />It is annoying to read.<br /><br />I`m computer illiterate, so somebody, please help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-27 04:27:00
subject: <b>Re: Light in the Night</b>
body:
Re: Light in the Night.<br />Build<br />Saying that Rhavin&#8217;s large build was always an illusion goes against every description we&#8217;ve ever had of him, including the guide and other meetings with the Forsaken. Such as the meeting Birgitte showed Nynaeve in A Silver Arrow (501, TFoH), Nynaeve called him large and darkly hansome. She does not say tall and slender, just large meaning tall and broad.<br /><br />BTW, Lanfear stopped wearing her Selene disguise when she showed Rand her real face in Decisions (TSR). She only used the disguise so Rand would be attracted to someone closer to his own age.<br /><br />Plot<br />Your right LitN. Be&#8217;lal did know Elayne would be sent south and therefore we can assume Rhavin did. I can&#8217;t argue over the plot because we have no idea what Demandred was doing that early in the series. The best I can do is to make a few guesses.<br /><br />1)	Be&#8217;lal was psyching Tear up for another war with Illian, as was Sammael. Perhaps Demandred wanted to make Be&#8217;lal leave his part alone.<br /><br />2)	Maybe they were ordered to meet by Ishmael and just started arguing because they were so close together, remember these two definitely didn&#8217;t like each other.<br /><br />Both of those give Demandred and Be&#8217;lal reasons to be seen together.<br />


created: 2004-01-27 14:25:42
subject: <b>Perspective</b>
body:
As I said in a prior post, you are not taking into account the perspective of the person making the comparison. Perrin would consider him tall but not built like himself either. Another thing that might be an issue is how long he had been out of the prison, and how deeply he might have been contained. We have seen the effects of diminishment on Aginor and Balthamel of their shallow placement in the sealing. <br /><br />You are also not taking into consideration the way the man was dressed:<br /><br /> &quot;...his dark green coat thickly embroidered with gold leaves. Gold-work covered his belt and pouch, and gems sparkled on his dagger sheath, and golden fringe encircled his boot tops.&quot;<br /><br />He dresses rather lavishly, flamboyantly in fact, and the boots just happen to go with the rest of the gold in the outfit. This description fits how Rahvin is dressed every time we see him, golden embroidery done heavily. And when Nynaeve spies on the Forsaken meeting in T'A'R, he is in a throne covered in gems so thickly that she can barely see the gold in it.<br /><br />We only get one clear-cut description of Demandred's attire in LoC, however, you will see it is much more sedate, with no mention of gold or embroidery, just a touch of lace.<br /><br />You are also completely dismissing the white wings in the hair that give him the distinguished look and the dark complexion as well.<br /><br />You are also placing a Forsaken in another Forsaken's territory and having him set up shop there, which we have not seen done to our knowledge. The best information we have on Demandred's territory is from Sammael, and that comes from a meeting with Graendal in LoC, Chap.6, placing him somewhere south of her place in Arad Doman. Tarabon, Ghealdin, Amador or Altara are possibilities. <br /><br />We know the Forsaken don't exactly get along, but placing two of them in one country doesn't add up when there are so many places that need to be controlled or cause chaos in.<br /><br />BTW, Lanfear dropped her illusion for Rand to see her as she truly appears. When he sees her again out in the hallways in the Stone, she has resumed her disguise and maintains it for the rest of the series except for when she is posing as Keille Shaogi.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-29 05:06:49
subject: <b>Re: Perception</b>
body:
Hair<br />Rhavin had white, which explains the silver in the dream-mans. However there is not evidence that Demandred had no grey hair. Remember Lews Therin&#8217;s description of himself in TEotW, he said he was just into his middle years and stress and the war had turned his hair white. Demandred was exactly one day younger than Lews Therin and fought for the light for three years, after that he fought for the shadow for seven. Demandred can easily have some grey hair, there is no reason to doubt it.<br /><br />Aging<br />Firstly I don&#8217;t think any of the Forsaken other than Aginor or Balthamel aged at all in the bore, they were just buried too deeply in the seal for time to effect them, or if it did it the effect was negligible, I&#8217;m thinking a couple of years at most. But still Demandred aging in the prison would allow him to develop some silver hair even if he didn&#8217;t have them already. <br /><br />Build<br />My point was Rhavin&#8217;s large build is natural not a creation of any illusion, like you also suggested in your previous post. I say it&#8217;s true because Rhavin has never, ever been called slender by anyone, including Mat, Nynaeve or Rhavin himself &#8220;he was a tall man, large, dark and handsome despite the white streaking his temples.&#8221; On Perrin&#8217;s perception of Rhavin&#8217;s build I repeat my previous post, Perrin is not going to call Rhavin slender a couple of hours after calling Rand broad. <br /><br />Clothing<br />When Mesaana described Demandred&#8217;s clothing she also said &#8220;he adapted easily to the fashions and fabrics of this age&#8221;. Demandred didn&#8217;t wear this kind of clothing because he wanted too; he wore them because he didn&#8217;t want to stand out and dressed like an Illianer to achieve that. Just like Be&#8217;lal or Sammael wore local attire Demandred did too. He just changed them when he was leaving Illian for a while.<br /><br />Territory<br />I can place Demandred in Illian because I include the entire nation. We have no evidence Sammael ever left the city except to fight Rand&#8217;s army or to meet with the Forsaken, all wanted was control over the King and the Council of Nine, which he found in the city. Like I&#8217;ve said Demandred was a long way out in the country and Illian is a big place.<br /><br />Besides, why does it matter where a Forsaken sleeps at night if he travel anywhere else in seconds.<br />


created: 2004-01-29 11:52:13
subject: <b>He sure must be getting around</b>
body:
<br />While you're placing Demandred in Illian because of the boots, don't forget to place him in Andor as well, since that matches the description of the coat he's wearing. Afterall, we did see him spying on Elayne in T'A'R.<br /><br />Another thing you forgot to mention from the Guide was that Demmy was &quot;especially cool&quot; towards Sammy because of their competing military prowess and their shared desire to be the one to kill LTT. So maybe he was just keeping an eye on Sammy to make sure he didn't get to Rand first.<br /><br />Good work! You convinced me to change my mind afterall!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-30 09:23:13
subject: <b>If you still care to discuss it, Absolutely No One...</b>
body:
since I'm not convinced.<br /><br />In WH, ch.14, Demandred notes Osan'gar's clothes:<br />&quot;He was garbed like some ruler of this Age, in a coat so heavy with golden embroidery that it almost hid the red of the cloth, and boots fringed with golden tassels. There was enough white lace at his neck and wrists to clothe a child. The man had never known the meaning of excess.&quot;<br /><br />We see that also Osan'gar has boats fringed with golden tassels. <br />Nevertheless Demandred doesn't wonder if Osan'gar is also an Illian Lord as one should expect if you were right.<br /><br />On the contrary, Demandred's sneering remark indicates that Demandred wouldn't wear such clothes. <br /><br />We know that Demandred considers himself as a soldier and thus probably wears rather practical than too precious clothes. <br />And indeed in LoC, prologue, Mesaana notes that &quot;he was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck.&quot; Not like a lord.<br /><br />Even if the golden fringed boots are especially an Illian fashion, nothing says that some Lords in other countries wouldn't wear it as well.  <br />Also in our real world a fashion from one country can come to another. <br /><br />Therefore I believe the clothes of the Forsaken you take for Demandred shall just show that the man is disguised as a powerful Lord. <br /><br />That fits with Rahvin who poses as a powerful Andoran Lord. <br />As Light in the Night pointed out, also the coat of the man seems to come from Andor.<br /><br />Furthermore, the description of the man, he is &quot;tall and dark&quot;, and the &quot;silver in his black hair giving him a distinguished look&quot;, also fits perfectly with Rahvin's attributes.<br /><br />Demandred is never described in this way.<br />It's even said in TDR, ch.4, that the second man who comes to the meeting, Be'lal, is shorter than the first man.<br />In TDR, ch.55, Rand thinks that Be'lal is tall. <br />Since Rand and Demandred are of the same height we can assume that Be'lal is not much shorter than Demandred but probably shorter than Rahvin, so that Perrin notes it in this scene.  <br /><br />That Rahvin is the man is also much more likely for the plot as it was shown in other comments. <br />At this time Demandred had nothing to do with Ishy or Be'lal as far as we know.<br /><br />The only thing which could speak for your view is that Perrin thinks Rahvin is &quot;slender&quot;, while normally he is described as &quot;large&quot;.<br /><br />This can be explained, though. <br />Either Perrin means the man is not fat, or he has not such a good perspective to see his build, or RJ simply made a little mistake.<br /><br />I don't see that Demandred would stay in the same country as Sammael; they are competitors. <br /><br />It also makes not much sense to me that Demandred would pose as a powerful Illian Lord somewhere in Illian but apparently far away from the capital where the other powerful Lords are. <br />Especially if he just &quot;sleeps at night&quot; there, as you said. <br /><br />Finally, I think even RJ said that Demandred is not posing as anybody.<br /><br />All in all, for the reasons above it's highly unlikely that the man with the fringed boots was Demandred, and that Demandred is an Illian Lord. <br />On the other hand, Rahvin fits almost perfectly.


created: 2004-02-02 01:43:48
subject: <b>Love to Etzel.</b>
body:
CLOTHING:<br />The boots Osan&#8217;gar wore were fringed with tassels. The Description of the dream was &#8220;golden fringe encircled his boot tops.&#8221; Tassels don&#8217;t encircle things, they hang straight down, the two designs are different, Light only knows where Osan&#8217;gar got his design but they&#8217;re not the same as the one the Dream-Man wore.<br /><br />Demandred does not consider himself a soldier. At the end of WH his PoV said that he&#8217;s always been good at war, he never says that he considered it his calling like Sammael did. Secondly when the Guide described Demandred&#8217;s role in the War of Power it said he did not love war, he just wanted to beat Lews Therin personally. Demandred doesn&#8217;t solely consider himself a soldier and will, if the situation calls for it wear whatever is needed.<br /><br />On the point that one countries fashions can be common in another that&#8217;s just flat wrong, especially among the lords. Every country in this series has its own unique fashion design. Look at what Carradin/Bors managed to pick up in the prologue of TGH. Fringed boots have two references ones in Perrin&#8217;s dreams and the other&#8217;s in the BWB. There is nothing to support fringed boots being fashionable anywhere else.<br /><br />DESCRIPTION:<br />I agree with you, Rhavin&#8217;s description matches the Dream-Man&#8217;s perfectly, except for the slender part. That is the thing no one can argue with, Rhavin is not slender, unless we accept bizarre theories, with no evidence to back them up.<br /><br />On the other hand, everything in the Dream-Man&#8217;s description matches everything in Demandred&#8217;s description period. The problem with saying that there is nothing to support Demandred being dark or have grey hair is there is nothing to oppose it either. All we have is his height and a hooked nose the only other thing even close to a description of his face is his picture in the Guide, which I do not accept as evidence even though it shows him to be both dark and have grey hair.<br /><br />HEIGHT<br />Perrin called Be&#8217;lal shorter and more stocky than the Dream-Man. Rand only called him tall. Not for Be&#8217;lal to be noticeably stocky than Rhavin he would have to be stockier than Perrin. In TEotW Rand said that Perrin was &#8220;broad enough for one and a half men,&#8221; since Rand didn&#8217;t mention Be&#8217;lal being &#8220;broad enough for two men&#8221; which would definitely stand out almost as much as his white hair we can assume that he is not as broad as Perrin is.<br /><br />BUILD:<br />I hate to say this but doesn&#8217;t the &#8220;Perrin couldn&#8217;t see properly therefore the Dream-Man could be Rhavin&#8221; line of reasoning remind you of &#8220;Demandred couldn&#8217;t see Flinn properly, therefore he could be Taim,&#8221; excuse used to keep Taimandred alive after WH?<br /><br />PLOT:<br />I can only offer one plot argument, we don&#8217;t know how many people were involved with Be&#8217;lal&#8217;s scheme and we have no idea what Demandred was doing at that time.<br /><br />REASONS:<br />Demandred wouldn&#8217;t want to be in the capital of Illian because he has almost no interest in Illian. Sammael occupying the country so openly keeps anyone from thinking that there might be another Forsaken in the same area. Sammael, Rhavin and Semhirage all took or have taken control of countries directly. And they all had similar plans. Sammael was planning to have nations ready to fight for the DO, Rhavin wanted to control Andor and Cairhien allowing them to fight for the DO or at least keep them neutral and Semhirage controls the most powerful neutral army in the world. The only reason the Forsaken have permanently placed themselves in a national capital is to openly take control of it. Demandred hasn&#8217;t attempted that personally so doesn&#8217;t need to live in a capital city.<br /><br />Back on topic what does Demandred need an alias for, the same reason that Graendal needs one; he needs to disguise himself so he can keep a base of operations. The place he receives reports from his spies, (remember in WH he was frustrated because the Forsaken&#8217;s agents reports hadn&#8217;t reached them yet) and yes he sleeps there at night.<br /><br />On the subject of clothing, if Demandred&#8217;s goal is blending in he would wear whatever is fashionable, if everyone&#8217;s dressed in black you stand out if you wear white.<br /><br />Finally, I don&#8217;t remember RJ saying Demandred is posing as no one, just that we haven&#8217;t been introduced to his alter ego yet.<br /><br />PS: Why do you think this coat is Andoran?<br />


created: 2004-02-04 09:51:27
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
<b> CLOTHING:<br />The boots Osan&#8217;gar wore were fringed with tassels. The Description of the dream was &#8220;golden fringe encircled his boot tops.&#8221; Tassels don&#8217;t encircle things, they hang straight down, the two designs are different, Light only knows where Osan&#8217;gar got his design but they&#8217;re not the same as the one the Dream-Man wore. </b><br /><br />Osan'gar has boots fringed with golden tassels. <br />That means they are fringed with gold, just that the fringed gold for the boots is in form of tassels. <br /><br />How could we know that this is not Illian fashion?<br />That an Illian lord has never golden tassels?<br /><br />Right, you can't know it. <br />But it doesn't matter since, as Demandred thinks, it only shows that Osan'gar wears expensive clothes like a lord or ruler in this Age.<br /><br />The same is true for the Forsaken in the dreams. He plays a lord, like Rahvin. <br /><br /><b> Demandred does not consider himself a soldier. At the end of WH his PoV said that he&#8217;s always been good at war, he never says that he considered it his calling like Sammael did. Secondly when the Guide described Demandred&#8217;s role in the War of Power it said he did not love war, he just wanted to beat Lews Therin personally. Demandred doesn&#8217;t solely consider himself a soldier and will, if the situation calls for it wear whatever is needed. </b><br /><br />Demandred says that he had been a soldier and was a great general in WH, ch.35.<br /><br />When he sees Osan'gar in the expensive clothes his thought indicates that he wouldn't wear such stuff.<br /><br />And when Demandred meets with the Forsaken in LoC, prologue, he also wears quite simple clothes.<br /><br /><b> On the point that one countries fashions can be common in another that&#8217;s just flat wrong, especially among the lords. Every country in this series has its own unique fashion design. Look at what Carradin/Bors managed to pick up in the prologue of TGH. Fringed boots have two references ones in Perrin&#8217;s dreams and the other&#8217;s in the BWB. There is nothing to support fringed boots being fashionable anywhere else. </b><br /><br />It's right that every country has a special fashion.<br /><br />On the other hand, of course that doesn't mean that a lord in another country couldn't wear it, too (especially if it's a Forsaken and thus not so much accustomed to the clothes).<br />You can surely buy &amp; wear Illian boots also in Andor.<br />Why not?<br /><br /><b> On the other hand, everything in the Dream-Man&#8217;s description matches everything in Demandred&#8217;s description period. The problem with saying that there is nothing to support Demandred being dark or have grey hair is there is nothing to oppose it either. All we have is his height and a hooked nose the only other thing even close to a description of his face is his picture in the Guide, which I do not accept as evidence even though it shows him to be both dark and have grey hair. </b><br /><br />The problem is that it's never said that Demandred is slender or that he is dark.<br />Also as you said, Demandred's most prominent feature is his hooked nose. But Perrin doesn't mention it.<br /><br />I explained why RJ used the term slender for Rahvin, most likely it was a little mistake.<br /><br /><b> HEIGHT<br />Perrin called Be&#8217;lal shorter and more stocky than the Dream-Man. Rand only called him tall. Not for Be&#8217;lal to be noticeably stocky than Rhavin he would have to be stockier than Perrin. In TEotW Rand said that Perrin was &#8220;broad enough for one and a half men,&#8221; since Rand didn&#8217;t mention Be&#8217;lal being &#8220;broad enough for two men&#8221; which would definitely stand out almost as much as his white hair we can assume that he is not as broad as Perrin is. </b><br /><br />Rand says Rahvin is large, which indicates that he was taller than Rand (or Demandred or Be'lal), while Rand &amp; Be'lal &amp; Demandred seem to be of one height; Be'lal is tall in Rand's eyes. <br /><br /><b> BUILD:<br />I hate to say this but doesn&#8217;t the &#8220;Perrin couldn&#8217;t see properly therefore the Dream-Man could be Rhavin&#8221; line of reasoning remind you of &#8220;Demandred couldn&#8217;t see Flinn properly, therefore he could be Taim,&#8221; excuse used to keep Taimandred alive after WH? </b><br /><br />I gave other explanation's as well.<br /><br /><b> PLOT:<br />I can only offer one plot argument, we don&#8217;t know how many people were involved with Be&#8217;lal&#8217;s scheme and we have no idea what Demandred was doing at that time. </b><br /><br />Apparently you admit that there is no other clue for Demandred scheming with Be'lal<br />You just say, that we don't know it, and thus it could be true.<br /><br />In Rahvin's case it makes perfect sense; <br />we know that he met and schemed with Be'lal.<br /><br /><b> REASONS:<br />Demandred wouldn&#8217;t want to be in the capital of Illian because he has almost no interest in Illian. Sammael occupying the country so openly keeps anyone from thinking that there might be another Forsaken in the same area. Sammael, Rhavin and Semhirage all took or have taken control of countries directly. And they all had similar plans. Sammael was planning to have nations ready to fight for the DO, Rhavin wanted to control Andor and Cairhien allowing them to fight for the DO or at least keep them neutral and Semhirage controls the most powerful neutral army in the world. The only reason the Forsaken have permanently placed themselves in a national capital is to openly take control of it. Demandred hasn&#8217;t attempted that personally so doesn&#8217;t need to live in a capital city. </b><br /><br />Back on topic what does Demandred need an alias for, the same reason that Graendal needs one; he needs to disguise himself so he can keep a base of operations. The place he receives reports from his spies, (remember in WH he was frustrated because the Forsaken&#8217;s agents reports hadn&#8217;t reached them yet) and yes he sleeps there at night. &lt;/b&gt;<br /><br />On the subject of clothing, if Demandred&#8217;s goal is blending in he would wear whatever is fashionable, if everyone&#8217;s dressed in black you stand out if you wear white.<br /><br />The problem is we have no clues for this, besides your idea that the man in the dream has to be Demandred (since he is slender, though it's never said Demandred is slender), and that he wears boots you can only wear of you stay in Illian. <br /><br />At least till now you didn't point out other hints which could support your idea for Demandred being in Illian.<br /><br /><b> Finally, I don&#8217;t remember RJ saying Demandred is posing as no one, just that we haven&#8217;t been introduced to his alter ego yet. </b><br /><br />I'm also not really sure what he said, try to check it.<br /><br /><b> PS: Why do you think this coat is Andoran? </b><br /><br />Doesn't Gawyn wear such a coat in green with golden leaves sometime? <br />LitN pointed it out.


created: 2004-02-11 00:09:38
subject: <b>Re: Etzel</b>
body:
Hair:<br />I didn&#8217;t want to bring this one up, as its just splitting hairs, which I try to avoid unless I&#8217;m forced into it, Rhavin&#8217;s most obvious feature is the WHITE hair at his TEMPLES, there is not mention of this man having and pale hair at his temples, or having white hair at all, just silver, which means grey. White on black looks lighter than it is not darker and if Perrin can make out the leaves on this guy&#8217;s coat he can tell the difference between white and grey and that his only dark point is on his temples.<br /><br />Build:<br />I made this point before. Be&#8217;lal we described as stockier than the Dream man. If that was Rhavin who has very nearly Perrin&#8217;s shoulders Be&#8217;lal would have to be broad enough for almost two men, that would definitely stand out and there is not mention of Be&#8217;lal being that broad.<br /><br />Height:<br />Lets look at the WoT definition of tall. Perrin is tall and he&#8217;s 6&#8217;2&#8221;, Mat calls himself above average and he&#8217;s about 6&#8217;. The term tall is not relative to yourself; it&#8217;s also relative to the people you are most familiar with. Rand, Perrin and Mat grew up in the same place and had been to the same places since, therefore they had a similar idea of what tall entails at that time. Therefore the height you have to reach according to these two is about 6&#8217;1&#8221;. Rand is 6&#8217;6&#8221; and Demandred is slightly shorter than him. That means Demandred is about 6&#8217;5&#8221;. Now the important thing there is that Rand, who also came from the Two Rivers calls Be&#8217;lal tall. That means he&#8217;s at least 6&#8221;1, and probably more. The point is that though Rand called Be&#8217;lal tall it doesn&#8217;t mean he&#8217;s almost Demandred&#8217;s height, he can be anything under 6&#8217;3&#8221; and still be noticeably shorter than Dedandred, especially to Perrin&#8217;s eyes.<br /><br />Note: The heights come from http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.7_generalities/2.7.2_height.html.<br /><br /><br />Clothes:<br />Demandred wears dark clothes by choice. This was a disguise. But just as Demandred seems to wear plain or dark clothes, Rhavin seems to like bright colours, yet the DM&#8217;s coat is dark green.<br />


created: 2004-06-11 06:03:36
subject: <b>Am I stupid or something?</b>
body:
I fail to see the relevance of this discussion.<br /><br />But even hypothetical discussions can be fun...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Shadow at Noon<br /><br />Economic liberalism and social darwinism has unnervingly much in common...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 14:59:35
subject: <b>My gut reaction to this is...........</b>
body:
Yes. <br /><br />Great work here. I too think this will also allow Rand to trust Logain enough to place him as tha Ma'hael.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 17:27:26
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I thought the halo bespoke of glory and power beyond that which any other man might experience or something like that. While being the M'Hael could lead to that, it doesn't necessarily.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--==[[]]==--<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Matt Gluthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />[4.5] <i>years and counting since last read through.<br />Please inform me of any facts I ever get wrong.</i><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 08:26:33
subject: <b>Agree partly</b>
body:
I've always said that Logain will play a major role with the seanchans and help Rand which in return strengthen their bonds, but I think that there is much more to the Halo than just the Seanchan, I think the black tower is also involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 09:41:22
subject: <b>I'm sceptical</b>
body:
I don't believe that Logain will be present at the meeting. <br /><br />If there were really two such strong male channelers like Rand and Logain, I can't see how the Seanchan/Semirhage could successfully capture Rand (and I think they will capture him). <br /><br />Therefore I rather think that Rand will send Logain back to the BT to deal with Taim. <br />He will defeat Taim &amp; men and thus earn Rand's trust and the title of M'hael.  <br /><br />But we will see.


created: 2004-01-21 10:13:06
subject: <b>Halo colors</b>
body:
I thought that it said somewhere that Min said the colors didn't matter. If the blue and gold indicate the Seanchan's flag, what do the &quot;sickly brown, purple, and yellow&quot; mean when Min views that Rand will be hurt by Aes Sedai?


created: 2004-01-21 11:54:45
subject: <b>Colors</b>
body:
First off while this is way off the topic, brown, purple and yellow are colors commonly assosiated with bruises. As far as the sickly part, mabey he will be beatten (I don't know off hand when the veiwing took place) to close to death again.


created: 2004-01-21 11:57:29
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
It makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 13:29:35
subject: <b>Gave a thumbs up because of well presented facts-</b>
body:
but, I too, believe the Halo must be for something greater than killing a Forsaken.   Even if it is to save the life of the DR, others have done this before. Moiraine has accomplished both those tasks. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />IMO, Logain is going to sort out the Black Tower, maybe killing Taim, but definitely getting the Dark Friend Asha`man out of the BT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 19:41:16
subject: <b>Etzel, have you ever agreed with anything put up on here?</b>
body:
Ever?<br /><br />Seriously, you seem to have a problem with everything, yet your &quot;opinions&quot; never hold any weight other than your own personal thoughts.<br /><br />*shakes head*<br /><br />Anyway, great theory here. This is what I thought when I read CoT the first time, and I like the idea. Good work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 02:55:01
subject: <b>Well GG</b>
body:
<b> Etzel, have you ever agreed with anything put up on here? Ever? </b><br /><br />I usually agree with my theories... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seriously I agreed with many theories. <br />Sometimes I'm not sure if it's right or wrong and have to stay undecided.<br /><br />On the other hand, I disagree if I believe it's rather wrong.<br /><br />And I almost ever like to discuss things in the theory, not just state: &quot;it's great work or bad work&quot;. <br />The TP is the place for it.<br /><br /><b> Seriously, you seem to have a problem with everything, yet your &quot;opinions&quot; never hold any weight other than your own personal thoughts. </b><br /><br />If I see a problem, I can't simply ignore it or don't care like you maybe. <br />It has nothing to do with any personal feelings, liking or dislike for the author.<br /><br />Of course I think about a theory, form my own opinion based on all the facts &amp; common sense and either agree or disagree in the end (and post my view). <br /><br />I wonder how you could honestly vote without that?<br /><br />Anyway, in this case we know that Min had several viewings of Logain's glory. <br /><br />One time in TFoH, ch.1 Min sees &quot;a halo flared around his head, a radiant crown of gold and blue&quot;.<br />She says it means: &quot;Glory to come.. But for him, perhaps<br />above all men&quot;. <br />This fits with the crown. <br />Later she says the &quot;halo of greatness&quot; for example.<br />Min sees the halo more and more often, and in CoT it's stronger than ever.<br /><br />What does it mean? That Logain will be at the meeting and help Rand or that he will do something else, something more?<br /><br />In CoT, prologue, the (probably DF) Asha'man Mishraile, one of Taim's men, say to Logain the significant words:&quot;Glory waits for some of us, Logain.&quot;<br /><br />It's quite ironical since we know that Logain indeed will get some glory.<br /><br />This, together with some other scenes, shows us that RJ has build up a conflict between Taim and Logain.<br />Also Gabrelle's thought (she is one of Logain's AS indicates that: &quot;Against whom, she could not say, but she was sure that Logain Ablar was riding to war.&quot;<br /><br />Finally there is an Egwene dream in ACoS, ch.20, &quot;Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.&quot;<br /><br />If we connect all this I believe it's more likely that Logain will defeat Taim and win the BT back (Taim would never leave it on his own). <br />Maybe he will replace Rand as the ruler of parts of the Westlands in the end and/or become the leader of the male channelers.<br /><br />I don't believe that being on the Seanchan meeting or killing a Forsaken will already fulfill the glory (above all men)-viewing as the theory says.<br /><br />But since you disagree, I eagerly await your arguments.<br /><br /> <br />


created: 2004-01-22 07:11:51
subject: <b>Ah now...</b>
body:
..Etzel can be quite agreeable sometimes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for the theory, seems good to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 13:23:27
subject: <b>not enough</b>
body:
I agree with Etzel, just being part of the negotiating team to meet with the Seanchan is not much glory.  Are you suggesting that Logain will become a leader of the Seanchan as Rand's proxy?  I think that is also unlikely.<br /><br />I think the evidence points to Logain taking over the black tower.  I also think his full glory may not be revealed to us at the end of the series.  This could easily be an unresolved plot, especially if Logain's glory is to come after TG.  <br /><br />To Green Gaidan:<br />Why are you always picking on Etzel over here?  I have found his arguments to be as constructuve as anyone elses.  Many of the recent theories (including Etzel's) have been weak and full of holes. He is certainly not the only one to notice this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 17:10:12
subject: <b>colors</b>
body:
i agree on this theroy just that the colors min saw were gold THEN blue and not blue THEN gold witch is the seanchan flag but the reast was good<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />shdowslicer, The Tamrylin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-26 12:37:15
subject: <b>Goodlike.</b>
body:
First of all, I dont think the order in which she described the colors is of any crucial relevance.  A+B = B+A.  &quot;Gold and blue&quot; is therefore the same as &quot;blue and gold.&quot;  Inserting the word &quot;then&quot; was merely a device implemented into the quote, and not part of it.<br /><br />I think it is a good theory, with a good presentation of thoughts.  Although I do see Etzel's point that two strong male channelers would most likely not be needed together in the delegation, I do not believe that necessarily rules out the significant portions of the theory.  I do however agree with the notion that Etzel seems to disagree with all theories excepting his own <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.   <br /><br />Seriously, though, Rand has been shielded and cut off from the source before, and then it was without any direct assistance from a Forsaken.  With one of the Forsaken about, and the Seanchan who have channelers aplenty, I am not sure why it would be unlikely or so utterly impossible for Rand to be captured or at least significantly attacked.<br /><br />This having been said, I do not believe that this is going to happen and I am leaning towards his glory coming from the issues surrounding Taim and the Black Tower, but I do not believe that <u>anyone</u> has given us any sufficient information to debunk this theory.<br /><br />Thumbs up on the theory, but I can't wait to see what really happens.


created: 2004-01-26 14:28:23
subject: <b>Logain's Glory to come</b>
body:
I like the theory, but like Etzel....I'm a little skeptical.  It is not that I am sure he won't be there and an integral part of the negotiations...rather that his glory must be much greater than simply dealing with the Seanchan.  I agree in part with Etzel that it will be Logain that deals with Taim and wrests control of the Black Tower from him for Rand.  <br /><br />I think there is a misconception about what Etzel is doing.  He points out many good quotes that he uses in his argument (whether correctly or incorrectly, which is a totally different argument).  Now you may disagree with his point of view...but until you take the time to point out other quotes that disprove his then all you are doing is quoting your own opinion...which at least in academia, is a very weak position to make a valid argument.<br /><br />Don't discount a good verbal exchange of ideas...you never know what ideas might just get sparked out of it.<br /><br />The road to glory begins with naught but the first step&#8230;of many.<br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 16:33:02
subject: <b>makes sense</b>
body:
but i think if logain kills her it might make rand trust him less, just because he killed a woman. and we know how rand doesnt like that. she would probably end up on his little list, even though he didnt kill her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is said the Devil has the best tunes.<br />This is broadly true. But Heaven has the best choreographers.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 20:09:39
subject: <b>Logain...</b>
body:
I think the seanchan will attack the black tower and scatter the Ashaman. (There is an excellent theory I think in the Black Tower theories but it might be in the seanchan section ).I don't think that Logain and Taim will fight over it.<br /><br />I also think Mat and Tuon will be the most instrumental players bringing the Seanchan to Rand.<br />              &quot;with the fox that makes the ravens fly<br />              he catches the moons from out of the sky.&quot; <br />Thats about Mat....<br /><br /><br />I think Logains glory will come from whipping some forsaken and shadow spawn arse!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 21:32:10
subject: <b>Short and Sweet!</b>
body:
You have my vote! <br /><br />Although the chance remains that it might be as suggested in the past.  Logain deals with Taim and thus averts disaster for Rand at the moment of truth.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-27 21:06:47
subject: <b>The Meaning of &quot;Glory&quot;</b>
body:
Thanks for the great theory. I hadn't really put a lot of thought into the specifics of Logain's future before.<br /><br />I agree with Logain being instrumental to Rand's plans, both for the Seanchan and the upcoming Last Battle, but Min's viewing of a halo around his head doesn't, in my opinion, signify this.<br /><br />Min has seen such halos before, and, as we know, the knowing of the meaning comes with the viewing, if at all. To Min, this halo signifies glory to come, and in her visions that generally means some sort of fame or political glory, i.e. becoming a great battle leader or a beloved king, or something else that will get songs sung about you and statues built in your honor.<br /><br />Killing Semirhage, even to save Rand's life, doesn't fit the bill. We've seen many Forsaken buy the farm, and generally the (non-major character) population doesn't know or believe the Forsaken were ever there. This will be true for the Seanchan as well, I believe, since Semirhage has placed herself in such a powerful position in the Court of the Nine Moons. The Forsaken play in the dark, and the heroes who kill them tend not to shout it from the hilltops either. It might make us, the readers, like the characters more, but it doesn't gain them much &quot;glory&quot; in the World of the Wheel.<br /><br />I don't disagree with your theory of what will happen, as much as I think it will perhaps be Logain's first step on the road to the &quot;glory&quot; he will later acheive. Perhaps because he saves Rand and exposes Taim he will become M'Hael, and then he will lead the Asha'man to future glory. If he elevates the office of M'Hael to equality with the Amirlyn Seat (or perhaps bears the Ring of the Tamyrlin in a re-unified male/female Aes Sedai society), then he will have achieved &quot;glory.&quot;


created: 2004-01-28 17:46:40
subject: <b>I seem to remember</b>
body:
I dream that egwene had shortly after studying with the aiel dreamwalkers. I don't have the exact quote but it had to do with logain stepping over a figure on the ground and onto a large smooth black stone that sounds suspiciously like the stone that taim and rand adress the Ashaman from. I think that logain will be present against the seanchan, but most of his glory is linked to the black tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-02 17:42:49
subject: <b>Keep it Simple</b>
body:
I do not agree that meeting with the Seanchane would qualify to meet &quot;Glory to come.. But for him, perhaps above all men&#8221;.  I always tended to believe that after Tarmon Gai'don that Rand would like to get out of the publics eye.  Logain stepping over Rand, made me think that he would be the next guy in charge.  Say equal footing between him and Egwene and most likely some part of Randland.


created: 2004-02-03 19:57:44
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Like i said... i agree<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-17 14:20:06
subject: <b>I agree kind of</b>
body:
I believe that both the Black Tower and the Seanchan are only part of it, I think Logain's ...Glory, perhaps above all others...&quot; I must emphasize the ALL here, that it refers to something else. After all that implies more glory then the Dragon Reborn, how can this be if TDR is supposed to defeat the DO and save the world?, can't get more glory than that. Perhaps because TDR is also supposed to break the word, putting it's survival in jeopardy. This would allow another (Logain) to &quot;save the world' again, however with the added benefit of not breaking it, thereby getting more glory then even TDR. He may do this in the role of Tamyrlin but then again he may not.<br /><br />Consider Egwene's dream,<br /><br />&quot;Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.&quot;<br /><br />Stepping over Rand's body, laid out on a funeral Bier? Sounds to me to fit Rand's prophecy to die in the last battle, however Egwene touching his face and it breaking apart like a paper puppet? That sounds like her discovering that the body is not really Rand at all but a construct/dummy or illusion (speculation here of course but remember the disguises, the weave can be tied off and that touch penetrates the illusion). Where is Rand, maybe in hiding, a quite life somewhere or as another person or maybe truly dead if RJ goes that way. People may hate and fear him even more after the last battle as he has outlived his usefulness. It would be much easier for him (or if he is dead others) to have everyone believe him dead then simply not know what happened to him and always fear his return.<br /><br />I also think I remember a reference made to Callandor to be for he who comes after?? perhaps someone remembers the same thing and can help me out here.


created: 2004-02-22 22:58:46
subject: <b>One to come after</b>
body:
Your theory makes sense, but I was thinking that Logain was the one that will come after and take Callondor. It just makes a lot of sense to me.


created: 2004-03-27 03:33:09
subject: <b>Male a'dam</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, the Seanchan (actually Suroth and in turn the Shadow) are now in possession of the feared a'dam that can control men.  If Rand goes alone to meet the Seanchan, there would be no one to rescue him from this.  I highly doubt though that the Maidens, Logain or Bashere would let him go unguarded.  And knowing Rand and his basic distrust of everyone, he would probably bring along as many Asha'men as he could trust.  Logain would probably be apart of this.  But I don't think that this would be his &quot;glory.&quot;  I think you have to take in account the whole of Min's viewing.  Her words always have specific meaning.  The &quot;but for him, perhaps above all men&quot; I do think signifies his becoming the leader of the Black Tower.  Now, think back to Elaida's fortelling &quot;the black tower will be rent in blood and fire sisters will walk its grounds.&quot;  Logain's followers among the Asha'man are the only men in the Black Tower to bond Aes Sedai.  I'm not sure exactly what will cause it, but Logain, having proved his loyalty to Rand by saving him from the Seanchan, will be ordered by Rand to eliminate Taim and his men.  Logain's group, along with their Aes Sedai &quot;warders&quot; will tear apart the Black Tower destroying Taim and his faction, thus the &quot;rent in blood and fire&quot; part.  This will cement Logain as the leader and lead to his glory above all men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All your base are belong to us.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-18 13:28:17
subject: <b>just my opinion</b>
body:
but i always thought that Rand WOULD die defeating the DO and Logain's glory would come from defeating the armies of the DO and leading the world after the last battle.<br /><br />but like i said, thats just my opinion<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 05:36:50
subject: <b>taim is paper rand</b>
body:
Finally there is an Egwene dream in ACoS, ch.20, &quot;Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.&quot;<br /><br />what if rand in this dream was acrually taim. I think it is possible that taim will pretend to &quot;be&quot; rhand by saying he got his orders from him. This would make it possible for taim to make rand more impopular among asha man so he can take over the BT completly


created: 2005-03-08 20:19:52
subject: <b>Gold and Blue</b>
body:
Ill try and make this quick. What did Taim do to differentiate the 'common' Asha'man? He put Dragons on his sleeves like Rand's tattoos. But instead of red and gold he used blue and gold. Min saw a halo of Blue and Gold. Enough said. Oh, this could also be used as an arguement for Taim=Asmodean because otherwise how would Taim know what the Dragons looked like in such detail?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a dark seed growing<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath<br />Trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-11 12:18:28
subject: <b>A Thought...</b>
body:
Overall it seems to be a sound theory.. however.. consider the following.. <br /><br />It seems to me that Blue and Gold could have dual meanings.  It could mean not ONLY does Logain remove Taim, but he also COULD be (ok, smack me if you want but here it is) ....  Hawkwings direct descendant.  We find out in KoD that he IS in fact from a royal family and it has been clearly pointed out that blue and gold is the flag the Seanchean fly... just a thought...


created: 2004-01-20 12:27:33
subject: <b>IMHO you got half right...</b>
body:
When reading I didn't make the connection of Verin's sleeping potion with her compulsion weave. I think that this is what happened. However, where I disagree is that in what Verin did. It seems to me that she just pumped them for information. Moiraine and Suian were already determined to find the DR, so I don't think that Verin's compulsion was necessary. I think it's clear that Verin got the details of the fortelling and the plans of the two - she may have agreed that their searching was a good idea. It's also clear that she did not find it to be a bad idea, as she did not compulse them to not find the DR. <br /><br />This answers the question of why Verin decided to attach herself to Rand in tGH and how she appears to know so much from the beginning. I predict that in the next prequals, we will continue to see Verin's influence - she will somehow aid Moiraine, and we may see her active in other ways. However, I predict that she will work from the sidelines - she seems much more apt to observe than participate much. It does raise even more questions about her ultimate motives - and gives yet more info that she is not black.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 12:47:43
subject: <b>I would hate to think....</b>
body:
that Moiraine and Suian are less than what they seem to be.<br /><br />By suggesting that their whole life is based on compulsion would be really demeaning to their character.<br /><br />I think they are what they are, and doing the right thing, finding the dragon reborn and winning the last battle all adds to their character.<br /><br />It would be wrong to suggest that they spent their entire lives under compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 12:53:17
subject: <b>Okay..</b>
body:
I'm going to ask a question here ..... Wasn't the potion that Verin almost slipped into Cadsuane's tea given to her(Verin) by Sorilea? ... And if so...why did she have to get such from Sorilea if she had her own?<br /><br />I just can't see Verin as the &quot;source&quot; of Siuan and Moiraine's &quot;dragon-hunt&quot; ..... I too think she just used them as info sources.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 14:56:36
subject: <b>Brad</b>
body:
because her own tasted too foul for somebody to take it unknowingly. A person would have to take it voluntarily, as Siuan and Moiraine did, because Verin could never hide the taste. (This point should have been covered in the theory).<br /><br />Soreilea's is tasteless, so she can dope a person without them suspecting. Necessary with Cadsuane. I wonder who else Verin will use it on?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 15:48:33
subject: <b>Verin's Potions (New Spring Info!)(no way)</b>
body:
If what you say is true, then how come Suian was able to bbe Amyrlin and not chase the Dragon Reborn? If what we know about compulsion (in any form) they would be unable to resist and just sit back and let someone else do all the work. I completely disagree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 16:04:36
subject: <b>Correction (I think?)</b>
body:
I agree pretty much with all the replies.  I think Verin used the weave, but to get information.  If she compelled them at all it was &quot;keep up what you're doing.&quot;  I agree with it demeaning their character too.. it would suck if they only did it because of compulsion.. and also that they were already searching for the DR before the sleeping potion.<br /><br /><br />I don't recall Verin giving the sleeping potion to anybody else though.  I think you're talking about the PoD prologue.  She didn't give them anything.  She offered to heal them once they let her, and then she changed the weave to the compulsion one.  There wasn't any sleeping potion mentioned.  She could've put it in the water but there's no hint from her PoV that she did..  that I can see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 17:42:55
subject: <b>Deadsy....</b>
body:
Thanks for pointing that out... I knew I didn't remember any potion used then..... My aging memory was confused....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 17:46:25
subject: <b>Linda.... Duhhhh</b>
body:
That is so obvious..where was my brain... Thanks's.. I wonder if either will be used again, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 17:50:59
subject: <b>The Amrylin Put themon the hunt.</b>
body:
Moirane tells about how on the night Rand was born that Aes Sedai who had the Fortelling knew when the Dragon was born. Suian, Moirane and the Amrylin were the only peoplein the room to hear the foretelling. The Amrylin made the girls swear to keep it secret and sent them on the hunt.<br /><br />That doesn't mean that Verin used some type of compulsion on them however...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 19:16:47
subject: <b>Deadsy</b>
body:
Verin was going to use Sorilea's potion on Cadsuane, but it became unnecessary, when Cadsuane decided to take Verin into her confidence. So it seems she was going to use her Compulsion weave to get information from Cadsaune. WH Ch25.<br /><br />The theory is a good one, it is a pity it was a little rushed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 22:51:09
subject: <b>The potion for Cadsuane...</b>
body:
I always thought that Verin wasn't intending to question Cadsuane when she almost slipped her that potion, but that she was considering murdering Cadsuane because of her suspicions regarding Caddy's motives. Remember that a big deal was made out of the sleeping-potion's ability to kill if taken in too large a dose. While your interpretation is making me re-consider that scene, I don't think removing an enemy by poison (or other means) would be beyond Verin, from what we've seen in her POV's. No, I don't think she's black.


created: 2004-01-21 01:29:48
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I agree.  I think Verin meant to kill Cadsuane if she didn't reply to her question with the right answer.


created: 2004-01-21 09:43:45
subject: <b>Verin isn't Graendal</b>
body:
We're told Verin was always nice and caring to Siuan and Moiraine in their novice/accepted days, they liked her and she liked them. We know that since TGH, the sweets she left for them etc.  NS merely builds on that a little, IMO.<br /><br />I guess Verin might have had hidden reasons to want the friendship of two women destined to be among the most powerful sisters in the next generation, but anyway her attitude toward them predates the foretelling about the Dragon.  It's not their secret about the Dragon that drew her toward Siuan and Moiraine.<br /><br />I don't think even someone as dedicated to her plan as Verin is would dare use a forbidden weave akin to Compulsion on Accepted just to extract information or to get them to do anything against their will - not unless she has extremely good and urgent reasons for it - and I don't think she did in the NS era. <br /><br />When she used it in TPOD it was on full sisters who had mistreated Rand and/or collaborated in an illogical plan of the WT for the Dragon (unsuprising since a Forsaken influenced that plan of Elaida) Verin was sworn to Rand and absolutely convinced she had to help him to stay alive until it's time for him to die.  The same is true for the time she considered whether to kill Cadsuane : she was a potential danger to Rand.<br /><br />Her weave is dangerous and could make permanent damages and Verin knows it.  I don't think it's in her character to use it on Accepted, not unless she was totally convinced beforehand Siuan and Moiraine had vital and dire information she couldn't get by means other than Compulsion - remember that as a full sister, and one they liked, she can pretty much order Moiraine and Siuan to do what she wants and be quiet about it.  I don't think it realistic Verin could have more than intuitions or suspicions at that point. Not enough conviction about their secret to justify to herself the use of her secret weave anyway, IMO.  Her weave isn't as powerful or subtle as something someone like Graendal could do, either. Results took time and varied among the sisters she used it on - one of them even justifies her fealty to Rand by her Black Ajah convictions, without Verin the wiser as far as we know.   <br /><br />If Verin already knew enough about Moiraine and Siuan's secret, it would have been extremely easy for her to convince them to join a conspiracy to find the Dragon Reborn. They're young and they liked her. <br /><br />In TGH she told them straight out she had her first clue about their cause around 20 years ago.  Verin is quick, observant and intuitive.  If you look for what that &quot;clue&quot; could be, a furtive peak into Moiraine's little book with its list of names all in relation to Dragonmount, even for a few seconds while she was gathering the clothes, is more then enough information for Verin to figure it all out in time and keep an eye from afar on the actions of Moiraine and Siuan from that day on.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 10:43:29
subject: <b>Like most of the others</b>
body:
I think Verin maybe read Moiraine's notes and thus get information on the DR.<br /><br />But I don't believe that she could have used Compulsion to let Moiraine search the DR. <br />After all the Compulsion weave doesn't stay forever as we see with Morgase and Rhavin.<br /><br />Also in TGH, ch.7, Verin tells Moiraine &amp; Siuan that she figured everything of the search for the DR. <br />20 years ago when TV was besieged (exactly to the time of NS) she got the first clue. <br /><br />Moiraine thinks then that she loves Verin &quot;but I will do what I must do. I will. I must&quot;. <br />This indicates that Moiraine considers to kill Verin if she has no other choice to keep the DR alive. <br />If she were under Verin's Compulsion she probably had not thought that.   <br /><br />Verin is just clever, picked up &amp; connected the right clues but didn't use Compulsion on Moiraine or Siuan.


created: 2004-01-21 10:46:04
subject: <b>Suian was a very young Amyrlin...</b>
body:
...and now we have very young sitters.  If Verin did 'minorly compulse' Suian and Moiraine, and this set them on their paths, then the pattern of young sitters might be Verin's doing.  I wonder if this isn't part of Verin's long-term plan.  <br /><br />She may very well have 'minorly compulsed' most of the White Tower.


created: 2004-01-21 12:12:57
subject: <b>Verin is pretty observant</b>
body:
Moiraine and Siuan acted slightly suspicious by not taking the opportunity to leave the Tower. (I know Mo was told to stay in to mourn). However, their persistence at transcribing the names even after the job was to be given over to the clerks, might have elicited some comment.<br /><br />Certainly Verin is aware of the Prophecies, and the Tower showing interest in births around Tar Valon could have made her suspicious.<br /><br />She may or may not have seen Moiraine's book of names. But I doubt she compelled them. They came up with the idea all by themselves, and pursued it by starting their lists at the very first opportunity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 13:15:07
subject: <b>Deadsy-thanks</b>
body:
for pointing out that Verin did not use a &quot;potion&quot; on the WT sisters captured. This &quot;fact&quot; has been used too many times on wotMB.<br /><br />For the Theory, there is no evidence that Verin used compulsion on Moiraine or Siuan.<br />It might be possible Verin saw the name list at Moiraine`s testing, but I`m not convinced.<br /><br />Verin is a very smart cookie, and adept at observation. She had to be interested in why Tamra was having births recorded, and paying the families.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 19:38:29
subject: <b>bcondray...</b>
body:
Do you realize that you had the 20000th BB reply above? Congrats <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I liked the suggestion above that Verin could have easily &quot;compulsed&quot; a good portion of the Tower. Very possible. <br /><br />I also liked the suggestion that such action could be tied to her 70 year plan. Moridin 2000, we need some more of your Verin theory goodness!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 01:57:18
subject: <b>I hate coming up with titles</b>
body:
I don't think she was going to use the potion on Cadsuane for anything but killing.  Making Cadsuane tired wouldn't make her trust Verin enough to let her do the weaving on her.<br /><br /><br />The fact that Siuan &amp; Moiraine trusted Verin makes the theory seem more likely to me.  It's a way I think RJ would hint at something.  It doesn't matter to me how she found out.. but this way is a lot more interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 10:23:04
subject:
<b>Green Gaidan  ...  Wow... I'm down with that 20,000...   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I really didn't even notice... But it really speaks well for the quality of the theories here that so much is discussed and at such interesting levels... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />About Verin .... Kinda of hard to believe that she could have &quot;compulsed&quot; a large amount of the Tower... she would have found very few instances similar to the Aiel tents... Just my thoughts....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 13:41:48
subject: <b>no compulsion</b>
body:
I don't see any real evidence for compulsion.  They are not disoriented or passive.  We don't see any real change in their behavior, just two young people with a zeal for what they are doing.  I think it is possible that Verin looked at Mo's little book to gain some information.  Morraine had to look suspicious in her continuing to do the clerks' work.  Many sisters overlooked it since they wanted to keep her close anyway so that she could gain the Sun Throne.  Verin was smart enough to see beyond that to investigate why Morraine would want to stay cooped up like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 12:46:48
subject: <b>No compulsion.</b>
body:
No compulsion was used here.  I'm not going to repeat what everyone else has said, but it just doesn't fit together from what we know about compulsion or from what we know about Moiraine and Siuan.  I am in full agreement with Etzel, who is as usual in disagreement with the theory being discussed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-01-27 13:26:46
subject: <b>Hey</b>
body:
I could be wrong, as I normaly am, but didn't Verin say in PoD that complusion (i know thats not spelled right) would kill the one it was used on, like in a year or shorten their life by so many years or somthing? Pleaselet me know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> mentaly insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm the unknown Forsaken also known as NightRaider<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />user of BALEFIRE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Dent Stringer 1912~2004<br />Rest in peace Grandpa, you earned it</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-27 15:29:24
subject: <b>The Forsaken NightRaider</b>
body:
No, Verin did not say it would kill anyone.<br /><br />She said it was safe, even for a baby.<br /><br />However, the actions taken by someone could get them killed. Since she was compelling them to protect Rand until the Last Battle, they could be killed in the process.<br /><br />This is brought to you courtesy of one who likes your least favorite character. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 22:52:25
subject: <b>I also hate making up titles</b>
body:
I love Verin's character, but I wouldn't put it past her to pull something on Siuan and Moiraine. Having said that, I don't think she compelled them. I agree that if that is what spurred their hunt for the dragon, that would undermine two of my favorite characters, and I dearly hope that this is not what happened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-20 11:37:21
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
we should all logically agree that what most likely happened was that after their testing moiraine and siuan drank the potion fell asleep and verin saw their lil books<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-28 08:40:50
subject: <b>wot-files</b>
body:
sometimes you people will try to connect anything.  RJ does leave a lot out and there is tons of room for conjector and conspiracies, but I don't think Verin would use compulsion.  Mor and Sue would chase th DR regardless because he is the DR.  I mean if you knew the saviour was born yesterday would you not be out looking for him today?  Verin may have gone after there info or questioned the girls, but so what, AS are tricky and power hunger by nature.  To not steal info, info=power, would be un-AS.  Besides I am of the school that Verin already has other reasons to be suspicious the DR is born and she like Cadsuane is on her own mission.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-05 18:35:15
subject: <b>The Results of Verin's Compulsion</b>
body:
I don't think that Verin used compulsion on Suian and Moiraine, because they lived rather healthily for the past 20 odd years. I disagree with the above post that interpreted the threat to Verin's compulsed aes sedai to be only that they may get killed through the course of their compulsed actions. I believe that Verin meant that, while the aes sedai won't die from the weave itself during the few minutes that Verin is applying it, that they can die somehow from the compulsion itself. I also got the sense from the Forsaken when they are talking about gross levels of compulsion that it was damaging to long term health. It stands to reason that the method of compulsion that Verin is utilizing is crude and more likely to damage than the more refined weaves a Forsaken might use, since she had to fumble in the dark and figure it out herself (similar to the healing of Aes Sedai of this age). Lastly, I suspect the &quot;oh, how awful&quot; consequence that Jordan is referring to is going to be the price of Verin's compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 18:35:18
subject: <b>With this one it all falls into place</b>
body:
this theory gives more evedence to the 'dragon ajah' theory sugggested by Eskia a few years ago, the dragon ajah needed some scape goats to help them find the dragon reborn and if morrine and suain where discovered then the dragon ajah could still hide as moreain and suain are not part of the dragon ajah<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />morrine unwitting hound of the dragon ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />if rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> can have 3 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br />why carn't perrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> have 2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> (where is the falie smiley)<br />maybe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" />  will get together, she likes ulgy men!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-04 19:40:15
subject:
<b>I think you guys all missed something<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
What Verin uses is not compulsion. It is an extremely strong suggestion. It's close but not quite the same. This explaind how<br />A. Siuan could become Amyrlin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> instead of hunting down Rand with moiraine<br />B. Why we don't see the effects of normal compulsion in either siuan or Moiraine<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />C. Umm... Well I don't seem to have a third point. But Hey, it makes more sense than most stuff in my life!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-27 13:45:06
subject: <b>heck no!</b>
body:
Ok, verin talks about her sudo compulsion as extreemly complex and she did it from learning a lot of tricks the novices had turned in into what she had at the time.  There is no way she had her sudo compulsion at the time.<br /><br />Another thing, it required every scarp of strength, and while Im not too sure on the time between new spring and when she used it on the sister to follow rand, I do believe rand is like, 20 ish and women grow in the power and who knows if she reached her full potential before new spring, I doubt it.<br /><br />I also think she had a week angreal to assist her with the compulsion.<br /><br />I do however think your on the right track. I think she was tryn to figure out compulsion but she was not strong enough, and or didnt know how to make it work...However she was able to use a weave akin to it and learn they were looking for the dragon reborn. along with her trick of easedroping (sp?)<br /><br />otherwise I think its a very interesting idea and I never thought of that, I think her original intention was to learn if they had any old tricks from before they joined the tower, and then she learned from them that the dragon had been reborn. <br /><br />Very good, loved it but I dont think I can approve it or disaprove of it either.<br />


created: 2008-09-15 14:30:17
subject: <b>Uhmmm....</b>
body:
Pyroman,<br /><br /><i>&quot;Ok, verin talks about her sudo compulsion as extreemly complex and she did it from learning a lot of tricks the novices had turned in into what she had at the time. There is no way she had her sudo compulsion at the time.<br /><br />Another thing, it required every scarp of strength, and while Im not too sure on the time between new spring and when she used it on the sister to follow rand, I do believe rand is like, 20 ish and women grow in the power and who knows if she reached her full potential before new spring, I doubt it.&quot;</i><br /><br />Verin has greying hair. She's not young, and New Spring is only two decades before the main series. I don't think it takes <i>that</i> long for a woman to reach full strength. Plus, even if she wasn't strong enough, what's to stop her from using an angreal?<br /><br />And she'd been AS for a loooong time before New Spring. Why couldn't she have her compulsion thingy by that time?<br /><br />NB I don't agree with the theory either, but your reasons for not agreeing aren't exactly the best.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-02 15:52:59
subject: <b>Sometimes...</b>
body:
A cigar is just a cigar. Verin has been around a VERY long time, such as has only been hinted at. Perhaps not as long as Cadsuane, but probably not very much less.<br /><br />Her primary trait is attempting to appear absent-minded while being amazingly observant. She has been doing this for decades, if not more than a century. She most certainly has an agenda which is not shared with any other Aes Sedai. She proves this by the fact that she hid Coreanin's dream ter'angreal ring from the Tower, by wiping out any record of it's existence from the records. She holds information nobody else is aware of, and has studied prophecy like no other.<br /><br />As such, she very likely knew that the Dragon was reborn sometime after the end of the Aiel War, and the odd behavior of the Tower seeking out women with newborns was surely noteworthy to her. There is no more than a hint in New Spring that Verin may have read Moiraine's and Siuan's notebooks, but as a prequel, and added to other knowns about Verin, the hint is there. A question arises, however. What would, or did, Verin make of such knowledge? At least, it would have confirmed for her that Tamra was beginning to hunt for the Dragon. Her own observations would have led her to identify Tamra's &quot;searchers&quot; as easily as Moiraine did, and she surely would have been more concerned with full sisters on the search than with two Accepted (or newly raised sisters) who had no authority and little freedom. Yet the suggestion is that she paid special attention to Moiraine and Siuan, showed them strong affection and care. <br /><br />Verin has no compunction whatsoever with doing what she feels must be done to further was she believes is right. She employs a weave against sisters which she accepts would cause her to be stilled if revealed, and uses that weave to &quot;suggest&quot; behavior on their parts that would be extremely unlikely otherwise. She considers doping or killing Cadsuane in protection of Rand. Such behavior isn't absolutely forbidden by the Tower, or it should be impossible for anyone not Black Ajah to perform. Unless Verin has unbound herself from her oaths (a thought not to be broached right now), then she must believe that her ends utterly justify her actions. <br /><br />I am reminded of Tamra, in New Spring, telling Moiraine, &quot;Ink is very difficult to remove, especially from white cloth. I won't tell you not to channel to do it; you know that alread.&quot; Moiraine decodes the words, understanding that Tamra was giving her permission to channel to clean the dress, while appearing to say the opposite. Verin takes this trait to a Talent, and leans close up against all boundaries of Tower law, while believing she violates none. <br /><br />Then again, she followed Rand into Far Madding, where a long-standing warrant remained for her arrest. Just how lawful is Verin, really?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 13:08:49
subject: <b>Wow.....</b>
body:
Great work...<br /><br />I can most definitely see this as one of the mythological sources fro RJ... I think we will see a rise in the power of the Dark... I'm not 100% convinced it will all turn out as you theorize...but enough to vote yes...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 16:52:47
subject: <b>Great work..</b>
body:
Wow. The only thing i dissagree with is Rand being seduced by Lanfear. But great work keep it up...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Trying to be a good catholic...<br />failing many times along the way.....<br />But I'll learn....eventually<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 17:32:39
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I haven't heard any one parallel this particular mythology/religion. It's mostly been Norse and Christian stuff. Really makes you think about how they're all similar in a lot of ways. Nice work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--==[[]]==--<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Matt Gluthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />[4.5] <i>years and counting since last read through.<br />Please inform me of any facts I ever get wrong.</i><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 10:49:46
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I always like such parallels, although you never really know how much is just coincidental, or knowingly taken by RJ.<br />


created: 2004-01-22 10:50:56
subject: <b>Voted yes</b>
body:
RJ borrows from a great many sources, mixing and matching to suit his purposes in WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 17:05:49
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
I disagree RJ would not go out to aztec mythology just to get some ideas I mean come on. The only way this happened is throught coincedence


created: 2004-01-30 02:15:07
subject: <b>ok seriously</b>
body:
if u wanted to you could make a hundred similar theories about a hundred other storys in the world. and im sure other people with their own little peices of knowledge about their own little areas of EXPERTICE will continue to do so thinking THEY figured out EXACTLY what RJ was thinking when coming up with whatever perticular aspect of the story it SUPPOSEDLY pertains to. all you people who think u've figured it all out just seem to forget that human nature is human nature and history repeats itself and life is life and the simalarities about million different scenarios COULD seem exactly like others or be based on the same principles. so can we please just asume that RJ diddnt have any ideas about COPYING other stories but that he is just an educated man who uses his vast knowledge of the world and history to just imagine another way things could be and it really isnt based on ONE or even a few ancient stories or the bible ect. ect. and its all just a well thought out work of ORIGINAL art that doesnt nesicarily try to hide hidden clues about how he thought it all up? sorry for voicing my opinion if i offended but its mostly venting. walk in the light, good night<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 07:46:22
subject: <b>Strength and order...</b>
body:
Nicely described theory.  Maybe the rest of Fel's note about strength and order are what might help to 'heal the pattern'.  Also, he also talked with Rand about how the bore must not exist by the next turning of the wheel.  As if the bore is 'healed', not just patched.  Interesting.


created: 2004-02-04 09:32:33
subject: <b>Belief and order...</b>
body:
Please let me correct myself...I believe the quote is 'belief and order give strength'...strength to the pattern?


created: 2004-02-04 11:00:20
subject: <b>Will &quot;Healing&quot; weaken the pattern?</b>
body:
When an individual is healed, part of the energy comes from within themselves.  If Ny and Flinn combine their unique healing powers - maybe with the access keys - will the pattern be weak afterward?  Will this usher in an era of non-channelling?  Maybe the next age will be like our own...


created: 2004-02-04 11:23:47
subject: <b>Nice ideas</b>
body:
Like your theory, although I still believe that Rand above all others (also the other two ta'veren) will play the absolute central role in defeating the DO at SG in the Last Battle like the various prophecies say.


created: 2004-02-04 11:31:35
subject: <b>With so many analogies to weaving</b>
body:
The &quot;Age Lace&quot;, &quot;The Pattern&quot; and of course people's lives make up the &quot;Threads&quot;. Then there is LTT, tucked away in Rand's head, continually teaching him how to make new &quot;Weaves&quot;.<br /><br />Coincidence?<br /><br />How many times have we seen Rand struggle with LTT for control of his mind and body? Time and again one of his main concerns is that LTT will take hold of saidin or that Rand will lose his identity. How many times has he said: &quot;If I must die at the Last Battle, I'll at least die as myself?&quot;<br /><br />Sorry, Rand. Ain't gonna happen. LTT will take control and &quot;weave&quot; the pattern shut, using his life's thread to do it, IMO. Rand will just be along for the ride and will have to be revived later.<br /><br />Anyway, I liked your theory. Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 13:54:56
subject: <b>Really interesting theory...</b>
body:
&quot;Three threads woven together share one another's doom. When one is cut, all are. Fate can kill you if it does not do worse.&quot;  Quote of the moment as I write this - weird since it kinda relates....Rand has to die at the last battle....Rand, Mat, Perrin seemingly becoming more connected, a la the swirls when thinking of each other.  But anyway - I liked the theory, got a bit muddled at the end, but good ideas - brings together a lot of points from other theories people have written and other ideas that have been floating around in my head....Rand's power, Mat's luck, Perrin's skills as a blacksmith or &quot;builder&quot; all needed to reseal the bore - also, I think a lot of people throw around the term &quot;defeat the dark one&quot; as in killing him, but isn't repairing the hole in the bore defeating him? doesn't that bring us around to the beginning again? this was just nonsequential rambling - don't read it as one piece - just stuff I thought of while reading this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 18:28:57
subject: <b>Only problem...</b>
body:
The Heroes are not taveren anymore.  Jordan has said taveren are only taveren when needed.  The 3 Two Rivers guys only became taveren right before the story started.  The Heroes aren't alive, which, since they are not touched by the Power, suggests they are not threads in the Pattern when summoned by the Horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 20:41:51
subject: <b>to demankus</b>
body:
One thing, IIRC when Nynaeve and Flinn use their healing, it doesn't drain strength like normal healing does.<br />Please correct me if I'm wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> When I have time to kill, I'm comming back for you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 21:39:03
subject: <b>Speeding up the Pattern</b>
body:
It's a nice theory, except that you can't exactly speed up the weavings of the pattern.  They pattern would sort of record what happens in time, and that definately can't be changed.  One could probably complicate things and have an event or happening appear quicker than it would normally be expected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 23:17:38
subject: <b>Very Interesting</b>
body:
I like this theory, if not because it is right, at least because it is very creative. The idea that the ta'veren lead the Bore being sealed again has merit, I think.<br /><br />In regards to some of the other comments posted here, I have to say that we don't know for sure that Rand will die (&quot;his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul&quot; does not necessarily mean he will die - I personally like the idea that this refers to the Aiel who are with him). I also don't think that LTT will take over Rand's body. I think that would be just too weird, and it would sort of make Rand's character insignificant in the end. Not to mention, LTT can't weave the Pattern; only the Wheel of Time can weave the Pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 05:53:06
subject: <b>to quinn cauthon</b>
body:
i think you are right, because their healing uses all 5 powers, not just air water and spirit.... i *think*


created: 2004-02-06 12:58:31
subject: <b>one small flaw</b>
body:
how would rand even be able to Travel to SG? remember in order to travel to a place he has to know the place very well.  unless ur suggesting that he goes there somtime earlier he will have to fight his way through the Blight, and i think he will need much more than just Aiel and pansy-ass Tinkers


created: 2004-02-06 16:02:34
subject: <b>I like</b>
body:
Nice theory.  And mccoyc, I think you have it backwards.  IIRC you need to know the place you're traveling FROM well, not the place you're travelling TO.


created: 2004-02-06 16:47:03
subject: <b>The Bore, The Power, and the Hole in Rand's side</b>
body:
This is just a quick one.  Is it Possible that The Bore and the wound Ish gave Rand over Falme parallel each other?  RJ always seems to have clues like this in the series.  The power is only a seal over both rands wound and the bore.  The power alone just doesnt seem able to heal either.  Just a thought.


created: 2004-02-06 19:44:33
subject: <b>don't forget</b>
body:
remember mccoyc, LTT has been to SG, and could direct Rand how to weave a gateway or give him the image of the place. also, they could Skim or go through the portal stones. what about the waygates? there are many ways to get there.


created: 2004-02-06 23:30:03
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
YOur idea is good and very cool. I admit it would be an awesome with the Aiel and Rand &quot;screaming defiance&quot;. But the answer of the regrowth of the pattern is just a bit simplistic for jordans style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Time to roll the girls and dance with the dice...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />Brother to Trulic of Andor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 00:49:41
subject: <b>about the bore</b>
body:
good theory but isn't the bore technically a tunneling through the pattern by lanfear and some other male aesedai (wasnt he the one controlling the weave and therfore died but lanfear survived?. So if its just a tunneleing into the pattern isnt it a weave of the one power that can be plucked apart and allowed to collapse and desappear (what the aeil wiseones do to undo weaves). So if it is plucked adn jsut dissipates wont that fulfill the requirements (sweeping away the rubble, it will be like it never was, etc etc)<br />p.s. sorry about the typos...very tired


created: 2004-02-07 08:56:20
subject: <b>right on</b>
body:
i totally agree with the last post, by kunida i think. the bore is just a weave from lanfear and co. it makes the most sense that the bore should be picked apart. maybe the reason why it hasn't yet is not only because it is hard to locate, but because doing it could destroy the wheel of time itself. but i think rand has the balls enough to do it.


created: 2004-02-09 09:12:24
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
this is a very interesting theory and it seems likely and RJ could have this as his intent but this is a theory that has a long ways before it is answered.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 08:34:32
subject: <b>To mccoyc!</b>
body:
I would just like to point out that channeler doesn't need to know the destination while traveling. They just need to know the place where he/she is before very well.<br />The Asha'man with Perrin managed to travel to a place with pretty vague describtion in the Crossroads of twilight so findinf the only hole in the pattern shouldn't be a problem.


created: 2004-02-10 17:18:56
subject: <b>Smashing the seals to repair the Bore</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I just wanted to support the part of the theory that Rand will smash the last seal himself. I'm rereading the series and came across a reference from LTT to Rand to do just that. Here's the quote (page 80, hardback, LoC) <br /><br />&quot;Lews Therin's voice came up like thunder, 'Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all break them and strike must strike quickly must strick now break it break it break it...&quot;<br /><br />This could certainly be a hint that Rand will be breaking the last remaining seal to launch a strike at SG. Likely the seals are the rubble that must be cleared away before the Bore can be properly fixed.<br /><br />I also agree that Rand will be using the Choeden Kal, in the big white book we learn that LTT had two plans for striking SG. He eventually could only launch the attack that led to him creating the seals. The other plan called for using the Choeden Kal. Since LTT is present in some form it seems likely he may influence Rand into trying the second assault plan, especially since Rand will have female channelers to make this attempt (female Aes Sedai refused to accompany LTT in his original strike at SG). I think Dragonmount has the excerpt from Jordan for 'The Strike at SG' still posted.<br /><br />All in all a nice theory.


created: 2004-02-11 23:01:04
subject: <b>I like</b>
body:
Could happen that way with other twists and such, but nicely thought out theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 23:53:14
subject: <b>Sealing With Help</b>
body:
In response to kunida's theory about the Bore being a weave by Lanfear...  I wonder if Beidomon will come into play sometime.  Remember that he was the guy that helped Lanfear.  RJ hasn't identified him as Forsaken, nor has he mentioned him since TFOH.  It seems very unlikely that RJ would bring up a character by name and not include them in the story somehow.  For instance, I've been re-reading the series and RJ mentioned Alviarin just in passing during TDR and look at the major role that she's played later on.  Perhaps Beidomon will come to have some role in helping Rand identify the Bore, or something similar.  Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 00:05:03
subject: <b>correction</b>
body:
sorry, that was TSR that Beidomon was mentioned<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-17 12:09:49
subject: <b>I hope that vageabcissa's logic does not hold true...</b>
body:
...because if RJ expands the role of every minor character the way he/she has suggested for Biedomon, then this series will be 10K pages longer without and end in sight.  How this is different from now is unclear.


created: 2004-02-17 20:00:24
subject: <b>OMG</b>
body:
OMG this theory is awesome!!! I think WoT is going to end either this way or Rand actually killing the DO, but that just doesn't seem likely. Of course it's all in the details, like how RJ is actually going to write the scenes of the final battle at ground zero. That would be an awesome ending!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-22 15:20:20
subject: <b>Ha!!!</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>I hope that vageabcissa's logic does not hold true...<br />Submitted by molec on 2/17/2004 12:09:49 PM  <br />...because if RJ expands the role of every minor character the way he/she has suggested for Biedomon, then this series will be 10K pages longer without and end in sight. How this is different from now is unclear. </b></font><br /><br />Ha!!! I agree with that, man... wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-25 15:51:23
subject: <b>problem</b>
body:
There might be a problem using the acess keys at SG itself, as when I think it was Mogehdien visited the Bore, she mentioned that she would be fried even thinking about the power, and that she had to travel nearby, and walk the rest of the way there.  Of course, how then did Lews Therin lead 100 channelers there to seal it?  I don't know.<br /><br />Liked the theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Muahahah!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> I like these smilies!!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Longwinded, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Perverted, yep, that's me... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-27 04:10:13
subject: <b>Good Idea</b>
body:
That was a good thought about Moghedien.  I had forgotten about the channeling at SG bit.  <br />Anyways, I seem to have remembered that it was mentioned that Lanfear only saved herself by giving over to the Shadow.  That probably means that Beidomon was &quot;toast&quot; (as RJ would put it) with everyone else that died that day.  Also, perhaps Beidomon was not even Aes Sedai but just another Aiel helping out...  So, I guess we can probably scratch that theory.<br />Well, I thought I'd throw this out:  Since I started reading the books back in the early 90s, I've always had the idea that the Creator might step in, at the very least to save Rand from death.  From the first 3 or 4 books, the impression is given that it IS the LAST Battle and that the Dragon and Ishamael are proxies for the Creator and DO, respectively.  Given that RJ has stated numerous times that he has ALWAYS had the end fixed in his head, that really makes me want to base my thoughts from the original books.  Just something to chew on, even though I'm not sure I even believe that it will be the LAST Battle now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-27 04:39:32
subject: <b>scratch that</b>
body:
I just read this part on the FAQ that RJ has pushed:<br />'&quot;no one's going to rescue you&quot;, there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.'<br />So... alright.  But at least the idea to try to figure things out based on what RJ started from is a good one.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-22 23:31:43
subject: <b>I know its been a month since the last comment on here but here goes</b>
body:
Well as for good ole moghedian channeling at the bore, i think it was more that the dark one would kill her for doing it, not that she couldn't. The dark one probably made that rule just in case any of the forsaken decide they're through with him. <br /><br />Anways, as to the original theory that the final stroke won't be with the power, i'm not sure. But i have been re-reading the LOC and saw a part i missed. It's when Min sees Rand and Perrin together in Caemlyn. She tells Rand that when he is by himself she sees fireflies allaround him trying to fill up a darkness that doesn't want to filled up. However, when she views Rand and Perrin together she sees the fireflies standing their ground, still being absorbed yet not as quickly. I wonder what would happen with mat their...hmmm. <br /><br />Anyways, I thought that that might fit in with the authors theory that their ta'vereness might be the the main cause. Who knows.


created: 2004-04-26 17:38:16
subject: <b>male and female channeling</b>
body:
Saidar and Saidin are different in that they are used differently to achieve the same results.  Males have to know the place they are Travelling from(as in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells).  Women have to know the place they are Travelling to.


created: 2004-04-26 17:42:19
subject: <b>Choeden Kal</b>
body:
If you remember from the climax of WH, the female half of the Choeden Kal was rendered usless as after Nyneave was done with it, it was all soft and melted like wax.


created: 2004-05-02 22:50:26
subject: <b>Lews Therin</b>
body:
Maybe thats why Lews Therin always wants Rand to break the seals. Its not that hes mad and wants to destroy the world, but he knows that it needs to be done to start the healing process.


created: 2004-06-15 23:23:13
subject: <b>Last Battle - Bore - Logain</b>
body:
On sealing the bore and the Last Battle:  I do not believe that the Bore will be sealed at the Last battle.  Didn't one of the foretellings say something to the effect of &quot;The Last Battle fought, but the world not done with war...&quot; <br />I think there will be &quot;some time&quot; and some fairly major occurences in terms of personal storylines being filled out before the &quot;End&quot; comes.  I don't think the Last Battle (the fighting part) is going to be a complete resolution...<br />Certainly Ariena and Logain have greater parts to play as well... Perhaps using the Access Key Ter'Angreals again while Rand fights some of the remaining Forsaken...<br />


created: 2004-06-21 15:28:11
subject: <b>Rand must die yet live</b>
body:
I am not sure of this theory because it is said many times that the Dragon must shed his blood on the rocks of SG.<br />and in Nicolas fortelling it says he who is dead yet lives,to me this means that Rand is going to have to die somehow and if this is true then your theory would't work because you are saying that he lives with mat and perrin to help the pattern seal the bore. <br />I could be wrong but I don't think so..<br />Just a thought!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-17 20:34:55
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
several extremely convincing points there. it seems you've pulled together all the loose ends into something thats definetly possible. im going to subscribe to this theory until i hear something better, which i doubt i will<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Through caverns measureless to man<br />Down to a sunless sea<br /><br />Population growth looks like a problem until you realize we can live underground.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-09 17:05:49
subject: <b>Missed supporting info</b>
body:
When I first read about Logain using the CK, im like, &quot;Heck no!&quot; Then, I remembered Min's viewing of great honor or whatever at the Last Battle...this would definately be considered honor...and if its not, then you must be on crack.


created: 2005-09-01 23:13:47
subject: <b>traveling</b>
body:
you people seem to not know exactly how traveling works.  BOTH sexes have to know the place they are coming FROM in order to travel large distances.  short distances don't matter so much.  SKIMMING is the one that doesn't require knowing your starting point (im not sure if you have to know the end point).  thats why when the rebel aes sedai army was on the move they skimmed back to saidar when they stopped for the night and then traveled to return to the campsite.


created: 2005-09-30 02:43:18
subject: <b>wrong sorry</b>
body:
IF they make a weave with CK holding the nightmares in thats just another sort of barriar The 3 Ta'vernen would need to be inside the weave. Also not all the heros are ta vernen or Birgette would be affecting the world to. Yes she was ripped out. The only other hero besides rand they say is ta vernen is Hawkwing.


created: 2006-02-20 07:13:22
subject: <b>Beidomon</b>
body:
According to RJ, Beidomon did survive the drilling of the Bore, but later committed suicide because he had taken a rather bad wrap for the whole situation of drilling a hole in the Dark One's prison. He's not Forsaken/Chosen and he's not probably going to help them.


created: 2006-11-05 04:30:11
subject:
<b>I don't think so<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Sorry,but I dissagree.As we read the WoT boocks we areleft with the impresion that Tarmon Gai'don is something very important.So how could other &quot;Last Battles&quot; happen if it must be unique.We see what Ishamael says:This time will be different.So I think the Last Battle will be Last indeed(if it wasn't it wouldn't be named Last).I think this time Rand and CO. will destroy somehow the DO.It could happen if there are enough linked circles leaded by Rand.And ofcours the armies of humanity to destry the trollocs and the myrdraals<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-08-06 09:01:28
subject: <b>Fel says it is &quot;A last battle&quot; not &quot;THE Last Battle&quot;</b>
body:
The Wheel of Time is cyclic. In previous cycles The Dragon has gone over to the Dark One. That idea did not hold well with some of the Chosen. That this battle had been fought many times and that even though thay had been victorious in some ages that the Dark One had NEVER been freed.  He affects the world through the bore but all during the &quot;War of Power&quot; when the bore was unsealed he had never escaped or was not able to.  And what of Padan Fain and his battle with the Dark One. As with the cleaning of the source the two evils cancel each other out.  Maybe Rand seals Paddan Fain in with the Dark One and they spend an eternity fighting each other.


created: 2007-08-17 07:18:04
subject: <b>best theory yet</b>
body:
This theory is probably my favorite for the last battle.  A couple of points.<br /><br />I agree with you that the bore cannot be sealed by Rand &amp; Co.  too often has RJ mentioned Foolish pride, esp with respect to Rand and LTT when they think of how to seal the dark ones prison.  LTT remarks that in his pride he thought he could do the work of the creator.  This coupled with Fel's explanation of the wheel.  When the AOL comes around again, the DO's prison will need to be whole.  This, I think is the easiest to prove, it makes sense with the cyclic nature of time in the series.<br /><br />So, if we go on the assumption that the DO's prison has to be whole after the last battle, that leaves 2 choices.  Either a new prison is created, or the existing one is healed to it's original form.<br /><br />As I pointed out ealier, LTT reminds us that man cannot duplicate what the creator has wrought.  Additionally, it has been pointed out that if the DO were free, then he would destroy time.  Therefore you would not be able to &quot;contain&quot; the dark one in any kind of man-made shield, choeden kal or no choeden kal.  In order to contain something, you would need some kind of duration, and the instant the DO is free, time is destroyed.  Therefore I believe the only choice is for Rand &amp; co to clear away the rubble of the seals (Four of which really are rubble now, the other three are in possession of Rand &amp; co.  The one Nynaeve found in Tanchico is broken, Rand is not aware of that one, but the rest he does know about.)


created: 2004-02-04 10:35:06
subject: <b>I also wondered about that.</b>
body:
Of course since the BA can free themselves from the 3 Oaths, one should question why they couldn't do this with their victims like the BA hunters do it.<br /><br />Also I'm not sure why Ishy never used Compulsion on such a sister; he was around at this time &amp; and this was really important.<br />Since the Oaths are only violated if you know that you would break an Oath with your action, you probably wouldn't know that you break anything if you are under Compulsion.<br /><br />Finally, does this mean that Tamra &amp; her searchers knew that there are BA or did Tamra fear the Red Ajah so much?<br /><br />Anyway, I think you gave a good &amp; possible explanation, although it's still a bit fishy in my view.


created: 2004-02-04 11:46:36
subject: <b>I don't get it...</b>
body:
<b>Have them swear under the light and by their hope of salvation never to reveal when the Dragon was Reborn. This simple precaution prevents the Black Ajah from gaining the information they need to find the Dragon Reborn</b><br /><br />How exactly does this oath prevent anything. Now if the oath rod was use, then I understand. But, this oath by itself doesn't create a violation to the three oaths. <br /><br />Or, are you saying that by swearing this oath (and thereby speaking the truth) it would not allow them to speak it in the future? But the truth changes. They may have believed that to be the truth at that time, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it will always be the truth.<br /><br />Anyway I agree with you basic problem with the situation. It seems to me that it was just gross incompetence by the BA and the leader in particular (it seems to by an unofficial theme of RJ's that the bad guys are incompetent) . And this is what led Ishy to kill her in anger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 11:59:22
subject: <b>Good possibility</b>
body:
Like, Etzel, I've wondered about that, too. <br /><br />Of course there is another possibility as well. Moiraine and Siuan &quot;assumed&quot; that these 5 Aes Sedai were Tamra's &quot;searchers&quot;, and Tamra was not very cautious or very circumspect about summoninging those five sisters, either, IMO.<br /><br />Perhaps they were simply a diversion. As cruel as it may sound, they might have been sacrificial lambs, while Tamra already had her true searchers, Moiraine and Siuan.<br /><br />Plus, given that Tamra had Gitara and her Foretellings, who knows if there wasn't a reason that those two Accepted just happened to be there on that particular day? Both Gitara and Tamra acted as though they were expecting it to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 12:10:59
subject: <b>Interesting, but kcf has a point</b>
body:
Swearing to the amyrlin would be like Aes Sedai giving their word.  It goes a long way, but being tortured or being under compulsion would force the sister to break her sworn oath.  Unless it was sworn on something like the oath rod, then this  theory would possibly be accurate.  I haven't read New Spring yet, but it seems to me there would have to have been an oath rod or something involved, and then the BA would have to use that same terangreal to reverse the oath like we have seen in the previous books.


created: 2004-02-04 13:10:59
subject: <b>about taking an oath</b>
body:
Whenever an AS who is bound to tell the truth makes an oath they can't break it without breaking the Oath about telling the truth.  Therefore no amount of torture would allow them to speak of anything that an oath prevents them from saying, unless the Three Oaths were removed.<br /><br />As for the BA not using the Oath Rod to remove Oaths, it would actually make more sense to keep them bound, that way you know whatever they say is the truth.  It's likely that they didn't think about the fact that the other AS may have sworn an oath to prevent them from revealing info on the Dragon Reborn.  The BA hunters on the other hand know that the BA must somehow be able to lie, so they remove all Oaths and start with the first Oath, to tell no lies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 14:02:32
subject: <b>Another carrot in the stew...</b>
body:
Overall, a pretty good observation by Sir Lancelittle, but I have a few points of contention.  <br /><br />I think, first, the assumption that Moiraine and Siuan knew the exact date of birth isn't exactly correct.  They had a range of dates and excluded births of boy babies outside their given range (I think that they used the date of Gitara's Foretelling and ran it out ten days[don&#8217;t have the book with me, so that&#8217;s just a guess]).  So, it was my understanding that nobody had the exact date or location.  Which explains why there was a blanket death sentence to &quot;lucky&quot; young boys.<br /><br />Another point of contention that I think must be considered is that Tamra's searchers were also tortured.  Don't get me wrong...they may very well have been (or even a few of them), but I would think that it might be better/quicker/more efficient to just kill them outright.  Remember the BA is trying to remain hidden...why risk the possibility of discovery by trying to capture a Aes Sedai?  And if memory serves me correctly, these were older and perhaps more experienced AS&#8230; perhaps the risk factor would be too great.<br /><br />Which leads us indirectly to Etzel's comment.  Why wouldn't they use the oath rod to free their &quot;captive&quot; of their three oaths? If, by your observation, they were captured and tortured...why didn't the BA just turn them to the dark side (pardon the pun)?  That way they not only gain a searcher but have an ear in Tamra's secret search party.   Just a thought.<br /><br />Also, I think Light in the Night presents a pretty interesting and potentially plausible explanation.  Even if Tamra&#8217;s searchers were captured, they wouldn't be able to revel too much...and if one of them got lucky ...well, so much the better.  <br /><br />Lastly, if I may throw another carrot into the stew...just to make things interesting.  Though little is written about them, we should never rule out the Dark Prophesies.  It may very well be possible that they had prior knowledge based off that to start looking for the DR.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents worth&#8230;<br /><br />JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 14:27:37
subject: <b>Jim...about the oath</b>
body:
It seems to me that taking an oath creates something of a paradox, or at least a potential inconsistency in the working of things. The three oaths that AS swear to do not prevent them from breaking oaths. Let's create a hypothetical situation:<br /><br />An Aes Sedai notices a pen is blue, so she states 'that pen is blue', or we can even farther, we have her state 'that pen will always be blue'. OK, so can she now paint the pen red? Does her painting the pen red violate an oath. I don't think so. Since when she made her earlier statements it was true. In addition when she predicts that the pen will always be blue, it's just that a prediction. And a prediction can be wrong. Ok, let's go back to the pen situation. What if someone else paints the pen red. Does this create a lie that kills her? Can she state that the pen is now red? <br /><br />Now we go to them swearing 'not to tell when the DR was born' or 'not to reveal our plans to a bad person', etc. This oath is really just a form of prediction that could be wrong, i.e. they could break the oath and it not being a lie since truth is time dependent. AS are masters at the truth concept, so I don't see them having too much of a problem getting around it.<br /><br /><br />Having said all that...I believe that RJ cleared all this up by 'hardwiring' the rules in this case. I don't recall the details of the scene, but when the tower BA investigators are using the oath rod to question BA, don't they ask a question that conflicts both oaths almost killing the suspect? If this is the case then it would seem that Jim and Sir_Lancelittle have the right idea. But I am still suspicious of it all. As with much of what RJ has created, close examination reveals a few wholes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 14:50:36
subject: <b>Ishamael's knowledge</b>
body:
I've been wondering about Ishamael and what he knew of all this too.<br /><br />Maybe I have it all wrong, but I was under the impression (from Alviarin's POV in a later book) that the elimination of Tamra, her searchers and the wild hunt of the BA for the excessively lucky men of the world was piloted by Jarna herself, without prior blessing of Ishamael, and when it went wrong and Ishamael learned of what Jarna had done it got her killed so great was his anger.<br /><br />It doesn't sound at all like Ishamael to order such a flamboyant large scale operation when he had all the ressources at hand to make it discreet yet efficient. Ishamael also knew a lot more about the signs that would announce the rebirth of LTT and the release of the DO from his prison, so he probably knew quite well Rand wasn't very active by 979 NE and there was no real need to alarm the Tower and others like the BA risked doing with their operation. <br /><br />Furthermore, it does not appear that killing the Dragon without first trying something else was ever Ishamael's favored option, so it's suspicious that he would order all those men killed. I think he would have wanted them located instead, so that he could investigate them himself. <br /><br />About the BA's intelligence, I think it's quite likely Tamra was able to hide a lot from Galina, Chesmal and the others who questionned her. Whatever their means of making her speak, they only had a few hours ahead of them before they had to produce an unblemished body for the Yellow Sisters to see and we don't know for sure what lead them to question her in the first place, what sparked their suspicion. Possibly they were very far from the truth of the Foretelling when they began questionning her.<br /><br />Logically it sounds like Tamra was able to hide completely this last Foretelling of Gitara, its timing and its circumstances (including Siuan and Moiraine's presence), because if Jarna learned the exact content of this last Foretelling and when it occured everything would have been as obvious to the Black Ajah as it was to Moiraine and Siuan. Perhaps Tamra revealed other clues, older foretellings, in order to mislead their questions in the direction she wanted.  <br /><br />As for the searchers, if Jarna didn't suspect Tamra herself knew when the Dragon was born than she might have believed it wasn't necessary to expand the resources to capture and question the searchers at all - she already knew enough and her goal might have been to stop their search only. She might simply have ordered them to be found and killed, either by DF assassins or BA sisters.  Maybe only Meilyn, who died in the Tower upon her return, have been questionned like Tamra was.  Careless of Jarna if so, but the Black Ajah has often been careless like that in the series.<br /><br />If Meilyn revealed anything of value to the Black Ajah we might not even know yet as the timeframe of New Spring stops a bit early for the Black Ajah to have changed all its plans, or at least for sisters on the road like Merean to get those new orders.  And it seems Ishamael put a drastic stop to the Black Ajah's schemes not long after that anyway.<br /><br />I guess we might learn more about all this in the next two prequels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 18:37:20
subject: <b>Someone else touched on this...</b>
body:
Tamra didn't know the birthdate.  When I read tGH, I got the impression that Gitara had spoken of the Rebirth as it was happening, and the little Tam said suggests it was in fact on the third day of the battle, when Gitara died.  Tamra, Moiraine &amp; Siuan appear to believe though that Tamra is speaking of a day in the near future, and when the snow melts, they set the range of days from Gitara's Foretelling to the thaw (she mentioned him lying in the snow).  Of course, the Black Ajah should have been looking for infants, but Tamra actually managed to hold back the timeframe when he was reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 22:02:47
subject: <b>kcf- about the Oath</b>
body:
If what you postulate is true, are the Aes Sedai bound to Rand not really bound to him at all? They swore to obey him, but if at some point in the future they decided not to obey him, they could just stop? That doesn't make much sense. I agree with Jim that an Aes Sedai's oath is unbreakable due to the Oath against lying, and does not require an additional oath on the Oath Rod. <br /><br />In CoT, Elayne thinks to herself, &quot;A great part of the White Tower's influence rested on the fact that the Tower kept its word... That it was known to keep its word... Once the promise was clear, it was as good as an oath under the Light.&quot; (CoT, Chapter 12, A Bargain)<br /><br />This would at least imply that an Aes Sedai's promise is just as trustworthy as an Aes Sedai's spoken word.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 00:22:42
subject: <b>Some responses</b>
body:
First. I don't remember the exact location of the quote but it is stated somewhere that an Aes Sedai oath is 100% unbreakable. It does present an apparent paradox but keep in mind all that matters is what the Aes Sedai believes. A statement such as the pen will always be red couldn't be said if she believed she was going to change then. If she did change it later it would be fine since a Aes Sedai can lie if they believe it was true WHEN they said it. <br /><br />As for the comment about timing, you will notice that the BA is killing ANYONE who is unlucky. Moiraine and Suian know the timing within a couple of days maybe weeks but the BA are killing people 10s of years to old, so I think the point still holds.<br /><br />I like the idea of the searchers as sacraficial lambs, I don't know how much I believe it but it is certainly an interesting possibility.


created: 2004-02-05 02:23:39
subject: <b>Concerning Oaths</b>
body:
Aren't the Aes Sedai who swore Oaths to Rand forced to keep those?  Just a thought...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 10:03:40
subject: <b>Law</b>
body:
Anyone remembers what the Tower Law has to say about swearing Oaths to the Amyrlin or using the Oath rod outside the raising to the shawl? All I remember is that oaths to the Amyrlin are frown upon but not if it violated written law and/or custom. I think Seaine's group discussed this, but I don't remember if it went beyond their peculiar situation of forcing sisters to do it.  Was it discussed when Sheriam's group swore fealty to Egwene?  Couldn't it get her unchaired if the Hall learned about it?<br /><br />I raise the point because in New Spring the five sisters chosen as searchers by Tamra are all noted by Siuan for their very strict views of laws and traditions.  Meilyn is also noted as one of the most respected and beloved sister in the Tower.  We're not dealing with Cadsuane, Verin, Moiraine, Sheriam &amp; her group here.<br /><br />I find it somewhat fishy that Tamra would expect anything out of tradition or law from any of these women. All the more because with women like that sealing her revelations to the Flame was almost worth an oath of silence - forbiding them under Tower Law to discuss the issue with anyone else but the Amyrlin herself.  For that matter, she considered a direct order from the Amyrlin enough of a safeguard for Siuan and Moiraine's silence, and they knew almost as much as the searchers - including the searchers' existence.  There's even evidence in New Spring to suggest Tamra also puzzled out Moiraine and Siuan were taking notes while copying the lists and let them do it. Yet she never asked for any further promise from them or issued any warning of danger.  Most likely it was because them being Blues was enough to put her mind to rest.<br /><br />All this and a few more facts, like the rumors about some Reds violating Tower Law by not caring to take men alive in those times, strongly suggest it was actions from the Reds Tamra feared all along, not the Black Ajah.<br /><br />If her searchers/teachers ever got caught by Reds, their views of Tower Law was also enough to insure the safety of the child/teen/adult Dragon, whenever it happened, until the Amyrlin and the Hall could get involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 10:43:23
subject: <b>another possibility</b>
body:
After I read that reasonable question of Sir Lancelittle, an additional question came in my mind: Where from the Blacks realized the Dragon's rebirth and Tamra's searches? If it is because of Gitara's prophecy, I have no answer. But the Shadow could know it from another source (for example Ishamael coming back to liberty and knowing that is because Tarmo Gaidon is near, therefore the Dragon must be reborn too...). In this case the Black Ajah could become command to search for the Dragon independent from Gitara's prophecy. And When the Blacks realized Tamra's activity, they could suggest rather that Tamra became her information because of betrayal among the Black Ajah or incompetence of a black sister. In that case they would not know about Gitara's prophecy at all, and would concentrate while torturing Tamra and the others, on who is the Black sister guilty for information coming to the Amyrlin. A wrong question, but if the Blacks don't know it and are convinced it is so, they could never ask about Gitara's prophecy, they don't know about. Just a possibility...


created: 2004-02-05 11:01:54
subject: <b>I still feel that...</b>
body:
RJ has backed himself into a corner with close examination of the oaths and swearing oaths and such with close examination. However, I'm willing to concede that he has gotten around this by showing us enought PoV's that if an AS swears an oath, she is bound to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 14:25:52
subject: <b>RE :</b>
body:
&quot;But the Shadow could know it from another source (for example Ishamael coming back to liberty and knowing that is because Tarmo Gaidon is near, therefore the Dragon must be reborn too...). In this case the Black Ajah could become command to search for the Dragon independent from Gitara's prophecy.&quot;<br /><br />Either they didn't know about the Foretelling or they din't know when she made it.  I'm inclined to think they didn't learn about the Foretelling at all.<br /><br />Otherwise they would know about the infant and, if so, they would know they had to start by getting their hands on Tamra's lists of names. They did not know about these lists, or what Tamra's thanksgiving bounty was really for, they never made that connection. And they never suspected Moiraine and Siuan, another hint they didn't know about the Foretelling.<br /><br />And as they didn't learn about the lists it makes it unlikely they cared to interrogate or go through the belongings of any of the seachers but simply had them killed by DF&#173;.<br /><br />It's possible (but unlikely) they already knew about the rebirth of the Dragon and it's Tamra sending important sisters on mission that was their only focus of interest.<br /><br />Ishamael was free and it's possible he told Jarna to report any sign that the White Tower was aware of the rebirth of the Dragon.  In any case, the Black Ajah very clearly overstepped itself, so it makes me think they didn't know about the Dragon and panicked when they learned from Tamra. <br /><br />Alviarin shed light on this in ACOS, Prologue.<br /><br />She reflects that Jarna herself (Head of the BA) took the decision to have Tamra put to the question by sisters and arranged afterward to make it appear she died in her sleep.  She specifies that they &quot;squeezed her like a bunch of grapes&quot; and that the interrogation extracted &quot;little juice, as it turned out&quot;.<br /><br />When Ishamael &quot;discovered what Jarna had begun&quot;, he killed her in his wrath.  He then tortured the 12 sisters of the Supreme Council until he was convinced they had no part in Jarna's decision.  He put Alviarin in her place.  It sounds to me like Ishamael was not just a little angry...<br /><br />Alviarin also reflects that what Jarna had begun only ended two years later with the death of Sierin Vayu at the hands of the Red Ajah (so Alviarin believes - or knows for sure).  Alviarin wonders if Elaida played a part in this murder because the Black Ajah certainly did not.<br /><br />Side note : she was wrong about that.  Chesmal Emery later pretended (WH,40) that she was the one who induced the Reds to kill Sierin before the Amyrlin could have her arrested and boasted that by doing so she saved the Black Ajah all by herself. Siuan's note about the BA left under Sierin's door must have been taken seriously by the Amyrlin!<br /><br />In NS, Chesmal is the one to announce Meilyn was found dead.<br /><br />Overall it seems this whole operation of the Black Ajah was a mess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 13:33:58
subject: <b>kcf is right</b>
body:
AS CAN violate oaths they have said.  The reason that an AS oath is as good as an 'oath under the light' is that they can't say oaths they don't mean.  There is a lot of proof sprinkled through out the series that this is the case.  Much of it I will have to track down.<br /><br />There is a PoV from Egwene, in CoT, iirc, where she thinks something to the effect that she trusted Sheriam and company because they couldn't lie when the swore to her.  <br /><br />Another proof of sort happened because Verin and company debated whether to keep the oath.  The all agreed that they had to keep the oath even though it was ta'veren induced.  On the other hand, they wouldn't have debated about not keeping it if the oath would have forced them to serve no matter what.<br /><br />The argument made by kcf is also very strong.  The oath is to 'say the truth' and not 'to make (or keep) true everything that I have already said.'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 22:59:20
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thank you, that was driving me nuts!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-08 23:52:54
subject: <b>Good question and answer!</b>
body:
I like the way you think. I just finished NS and that bothered me also. In fact, as was pointed out earlier, if they took such an oath, a demand to talk would have done nothing, and a tortured could have taken the silence for the fact that they didn't know. I don't think it would have killed them - like it almost did w/ Talene - unless there were 2 oaths conflicting. <br /><br />I also think that capture may not have been possible, and they just killed them outright. From what I read, the sister's chosen, particualarly Meilyn, were strong, stronger than any of the Black sisters could have been. Also, once an AS is cut off, other AS tend to think of them as no longer a threat - witness Moiraine's victory, and Nynave's or Moghedien - the captured AS could have taken their own lives to prevent the info from getting out.


created: 2004-02-09 20:28:10
subject: <b>DomA is on the right track. IMO</b>
body:
It seems to me, that the BA did not get their information about the DR birth, but from signs seen by Ishaemael.<br /><br />If that is true, I think the questioning of the Amyrlin concerned the 5 sisters mentioned by Cadsuane in NS, and learned they were searching for the BA, not knowing about Cadsuane. I think they were part of Cad`s group. They were all 6 of close age and strong in the OP.<br /><br />This all could explain why the BA did not question about the DR, but killed them outright to keep the BA secret.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-09 22:12:10
subject: <b>Oaths</b>
body:
The reason the BA almost died when the BA Hunters were questioning her was due to conflicting oaths.  IIRC, the Hunters had the BA take an oath to obey them without having her recind her previous oaths.  Then they asked her about BA plans.  Common belief is that one of the BA oaths is to never reveal details of current BA plans (or something like that).  They then asked her about BA plans. I can just imagine her eyes bugging out as she struggles to breath, nasty evil AS that she is...<br /><br />While I agree that the above statement about the pen is a correct interpretation of that aspect of the oath, I think there is more to it.  The difference is that the statement about the pen refers to something outside of themselves, which they have little or no control over.  An oath of fealty, of secrecy, or even one to eat eggs every other Tuesday refer to that specific AS's actions.  <br /><br />I think the discussion about the oath to Rand wasn't whether they should go back on their word, but more whether an oath made while under the influence of a ta'veren could be held as freely given, and therefore if it really fell into 1st oath territory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 11:09:12
subject: <b>Cadsuane's comments</b>
body:
&quot;If that is true, I think the questioning of the Amyrlin concerned the 5 sisters mentioned by Cadsuane in NS&quot;<br /><br /><br />In never made the connection before, but I think you might have found out why Jordan had Cadsuane talking about those women, to give us a clue that summoning the oldest and most powerful AS within a sort time like Tamra did is what arose the suspicion of the BA Ajah about her.  It was in the novella too.  In the novel, he gave us an additional clue by having Siuan reflecting how those sisters are all respected and known for their adherence to law, etc.  <br /><br />&quot;I think they were part of Cad`s group. They were all 6 of close age and strong in the OP.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure about that.  Those 6 are contemporary of Cadsuane and of similar strength, but from what we are told none of them shared Cadsuane's &quot;rebellious&quot; and independent nature. Cadsuane's followers seem to share her philosophy and when choosing them she seems to value special skills that fit her needs over basic strength in the OP. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 11:28:28
subject: <b>Another way for the BA to find out...</b>
body:
Another possibility exists for how the BA's suspicions were roused. <br /><br />We know that Accepted's were attending the Amyrlin during the war. This is why Moiraine and Siuan were with the Amyrlin and Keeper when the fortelling occurred. An interesting piece of info is given about who was attending the Amyrlin immediately before Moiraine and Siuan went on duty. Temaile Kinderode was one of those Accepted on duty. We know that she is a member of the BA (one of Liandrin's 13). It can be reasonably assumed that she was a DF or in contact with the BA (possibly being recruited at this time). It is possible that Temaile was able to evesdrop in some fashion. She obviously did not here everything, but possibly enough to rouse the BA.<br /><br />I know that this is a stretch, but it is a possibility. In any event, it is very curious that RJ drops the name of a known BA member right before the fortelling occurs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 13:14:18
subject: <b>Yup...</b>
body:
I found it strange when I read it but found no way to connect it to the rest, so I put it in the &quot;Jordan's irony&quot; category that a future BA very nearly heard Gitara's foretelling. <br /><br />You might be right, perhaps there's more to it than irony..<br /><br />In that light, perhaps it's noteworthy that Moiraine has noticed something strange in Gitara and Tamra's behaviors that night, their anxiety that was out of character for them, etc.  Moiraine even wondered if a foretelling was involved to unsettle them so much.  Temaille might have made the same observations, at least about the strange behavior of those two.<br /><br />This also makes me wonder about Tarna Feir commenting aloud at the assembly of Accepted that Moiraine &quot;told her&quot; Gitara didn't have a foretelling before dying.  There was no shortage of future BA members nearby.  If any of them heard and she's not so &quot;future&quot; as we might think, she probably reported that wrong information.<br /><br />That would have put the BA on the wrong track .<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-22 08:33:31
subject: <b>ermm...</b>
body:
Surely if Tamra was going to make them swear not to reveal the date, she'd go the whole hog and have them swear never to reveal that the Dragon has been reborn at all.


created: 2004-03-08 21:15:34
subject: <b>I second Light of the Nights thoughts....</b>
body:
Light has it as I see it.  Tamra might have used them as a diversion knowing that she had Suin and Moraine on the case.<br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 11:06:13
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Maybe I'm am wrong, but I understand this ta'veren duplicating talent so, that a person who has this talent can increase the chance changing effects of a person who is ta'veren in his near (only in &quot;a few square feet area&quot; ). <br /><br />It doesn't mean that a person with such a talent is ta'veren or can copy &amp; produce similiar effects by himself, especially not without a ta'veren in the near.<br />In most of your examples, no ta'veren was near (e.g. Egwene's raise to Amyrlin).<br /><br />Even if a ta'veren is in the near, a person with this talent doesn't produce effects like a ta'veren, but the ta'veren can produce stronger effects.<br /><br />Of course it's possible that Egwene has this talent nevertheless, though I don't see much hints for it at the moment.


created: 2004-02-04 11:32:25
subject: <b>Etzel...</b>
body:
From the statement in the BWB, I would say that there is no need for a ta'veren to be in the vicinity. It seems that essentially become ta'veren themselves, only instead of influencing the entire web of the pattern, they only influence threads in their immediate vicinity. Of course it is hard to tell how this is done and if can be done consciously (I would guess that it can, but it might take some sort of special training, which may or (more likely) may not be available). It is also unclear if you need to be holding the power to use this talent - I would argue that it is like seeing ta'veren, and not necessary to hold the power (a side note it would be very interesting to know if Siuan could see ta'veren while she was stilled). However, it does seem that while embracing the power, you can gain some amount of control over this talent (whether this is conscious or unconsiously done) with an example being when Egwene counters Rand's ta'vereness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 12:10:19
subject: <b>Very Interesting Theory</b>
body:
Very well put together, and I'm certainly leaning towards agreeing with you.  The only thing that causes me to question it is that I would think that such a talent would require some form of conscious action, be it actively channeling, just embracing the source, or doing the Turkey Jive.  Wouldn't this mean that Egwene would be aware, or at least have some clue, that she can influence things around her?  For example, Mat doesn't understand why his luck is the way it is, but he is aware of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 12:15:01
subject: <b>You could be right</b>
body:
I don't know if &quot;duplicate&quot; means to copy (as you say) or to double (as I rather think). <br /><br />It can mean both things, or? <br /><br />Anyway, if it means copy and no ta'veren has to be near to copy it from, Egwene is actually a (weak) ta'veren, or not?


created: 2004-02-04 13:14:33
subject: <b>Egwene and all the others you mentioned...</b>
body:
They have all been connected with the Dragon Reborn and the three Ta'veren.  I think being caught up with the ta'veren supercharged some of those close to them.  If you look at the books, there have been a great many taveren-like instances where the girls have come out on top by some random chance.  <br /><br />I think your facts all point in the same direction, and make a solid case, but I think it would be more reasonable to accept a &quot;vicariously-Ta'veren&quot; answer<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 13:34:10
subject: <b>Since RJ put that in the BWB</b>
body:
It's probably safe to assume that Egwene, and possibly Nynaeve and Elayne all have this ability.<br /><br />It's another of those little blurbs he throws out there that people either don't notice or remember.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 14:51:52
subject: <b>I don't think I agree</b>
body:
I myself have wondered before if Egwene was ta'veren.  Based on the number of people who can sense ta'veren that have been around her, it is obvious that she isn't.  As for the talent, in my mind it always involved some amount of actual channeling on the part of the person doing it, i.e. an active weave.  Egwene has never in any of those situations used the OP in some unknown weave, so I believe it is unlikely that she has this talent.  I suppose it is possible that I'm wrong though, and she could have this talent without any action on her part, but I doubt it.  <br /><br />Something that had occurred to me though, is how similar the effect of Verin's compulsion weave is to being ta'veren.  Verin says that the weave cannot make someone do something that they absolutely would never do.  They have to find a reason within themselves to do it.  Obviously this weave only effects people, not all kinds of various things like ta'veren, but I feel it is interesting none the less.


created: 2004-02-04 22:06:40
subject: <b>Kudo's to kcf</b>
body:
You have one staunch supporter KCF. Loved that theory. <br /><br />For quite a while I felt that Egwene (and Nynaeve and Elayne) may be Taveren similar to Rand Mat and Perrin with Egwene being the strongest of the three but wasn't too sure. Ilooked into it and read that the way the taveren thing is described is the taveren being the dead centre of the patten and the people close to them also being in the centre. So all the major good characters in WoT will be operatating with some taverenness. I think that Rand is a stronger taveren then Hawkwing and Mat and Perrin are probably as strong as Hawkwing. Thats a lot of power in the pattern.<br /><br />But basically I always felt there was more to Egwenes obvious destiny. I think think theory expains it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 23:27:59
subject: <b>Distance</b>
body:
<b>&quot;Minor Talents are seldom given a name, such as the ability to see ta'veren or to duplicate the chance-twisting effect of ta'veren (though in a very small area rarely covering more than a few square feet).&quot;</b><br /><br />This Brings up a major flaw in most of your evidence, Distance. This ability only works in a &quot;very small area&quot;. Most of decisions making for the events happen when she is not around.<br /><br /><b>-That Aes Sedai swore oaths to HER - some without prompting (Theodrin and Faolin) and others with (Myrelle and Nisao) (aCoS pages 209 and 243, respectively). Theodrin and Faolin swore their oaths without prompting in an event that is very similar to when the first Aes Sedai swore fealty to Rand &#8211; which was a classic example of his ta&#8217;vereness; and I believe a clear example of Egwene&#8217;s talent at work. Myrelle and Nisao were basically blackmailed, but how often have we seen Aes Sedai so easily cowed; and into doing something that had never been done before? Again, I feel this is another example of her talent at work.</b><br /><br />Theodrin and Faolin decided to swear before talking to her.<br /><br /><b>-Her rapid rise to accepted &#8211; this was also unprecedented.</b><br /><br />I would assume that the Aes Sedai do not decide to raise a novice right there in front of them.<br /><br /><b>- The Amyrlin&#8217;s use of her in hunting the BA when she is only a novice &#8211; again unprecedented, and arguably a huge error in judgment by Siuan.</b><br /><br />Again decided before there meeting.<br /><br /><b>-Her rapid rise to Amyrlin &#8211; again unprecedented</b><br /><br />This one is the least likely. She was hundreds of miles away if not more when this was decided. Remember, she was in Cairhien when this was decided.<br />


created: 2004-02-05 01:16:22
subject: <b>Uh....</b>
body:
I think that it might have been said somewhere that people who are closely linked with ta'veren tend to kind of absorb a bit of that ta'vereness...or something..the ta'veren twists there thread in the Pattern and then therir twisted thread causes other threads to twist as well...or something...it's late and I'm tired...probably not thinking too good at the moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 03:49:13
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
I like the theory.<br /><br /><br />Talents don't all require channeling.  See foretelling and sensing someone's ta'veren-ness.  So that's a bad argument I think.<br /><br /><br />As for her not being around when the stuff happened...<br />The Aes Sedai aren't the ones who chose to make her Accepted.  It was Siuan.  Only Verin and Siuan saw her before Siuan told her she was to be made Accepted, and she was within feet of them.<br /><br />Theodrin or Faolain, one of them was about to leave the tent without bringing up the fealty thing, and then changed their mind and decided to do it then, so it's possible she had an effect to make them decide for sure to do it.<br /><br />She was right beside Myrelle, Nisao and the rest when they did it too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 06:26:31
subject: <b>If she is Ta'veren, or a Ta'veren duplicator...</b>
body:
The she wil certainly have an important role to play at the last battle. Ta'veren are marked by the creator, and probably also those who can duplicate a ta'verens ability(Its hard to say if this talent really excists) Therefore no darkfriend, not even Ishy is a Ta'veren, the Ta'verens are sort of the creators prophets, saving the wheel from the Dos grasp in times at need, allthough they can be turned, this will probably lead to the DO breaking the pattern...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 08:05:05
subject: <b>Actually, I don't really agree...</b>
body:
The way I see it, if Egwene had this Talent, it would be a channeling Talent similar to the ter'angreal stolen by the Black Ajah that could affect luck. Ter'angreal use the one power, whether channeling is required or not. They can draw power from the universe and even hide that power signature as reversed weaves. If it does need channeling, we would expect it to be noticeable.<br /><br />If, on the other hand, it is a non-channeling Talent, then what would be the difference between this and actual ta'veren? <br /><br />My main objection, however, is that this is probably just an effect of being close to ta'veren most of her life. I think someone mentioned 'supercharged' by ta'veren and that seemed a good description. All you need to do to confirm this is to look at other people who have been in contact with Rand and co. Thom, Basel Gill, Bayle Domon, Faile, Min. Each of them had their whole lives changed by the ta'veren, maybe even in a single meeting.<br /><br />Still, we haven't seen this Talent and I don't know why it hasn't appeares.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 10:58:30
subject: <b>Some Responses</b>
body:
-Loil01<br /><br /><b>&quot;Minor Talents are seldom given a name, such as the ability to see ta'veren or to duplicate the chance-twisting effect of ta'veren (though in a very small area rarely covering more than a few square feet).&quot;<br /><br />This Brings up a major flaw in most of your evidence, Distance. This ability only works in a &quot;very small area&quot;. Most of decisions making for the events happen when she is not around.</b><br /><br />There is certainly a bit of ambiguity in small area, but not much. I would say that her influence certainly can't go beyond the limits of a small room and is typically on the scale of the area you would typically occupy when having a conversation of a small amount of people. I would argue that this does not present a major flaw. In all of the cases I sited (and many of the numerous others that could be used) there was close proximaty to people affected.<br /><br /><b> ME-That Aes Sedai swore oaths to HER - some without prompting (Theodrin and Faolin) and others with (Myrelle and Nisao) (aCoS pages 209 and 243, respectively). Theodrin and Faolin swore their oaths without prompting in an event that is very similar to when the first Aes Sedai swore fealty to Rand &#8211; which was a classic example of his ta&#8217;vereness; and I believe a clear example of Egwene&#8217;s talent at work. Myrelle and Nisao were basically blackmailed, but how often have we seen Aes Sedai so easily cowed; and into doing something that had never been done before? Again, I feel this is another example of her talent at work.<br /><br />YOU-Theodrin and Faolin decided to swear before talking to her.&lt;b&gt;<br /><br />They certainly discussed it I will admit, but these discussions could have been prompted by earlier close encounters with Egwene. However, I think that Deadsy put better, and I will expand.<br /><br />&lt;b&gt;DEADSY-Theodrin or Faolain, one of them was about to leave the tent without bringing up the fealty thing, and then changed their mind and decided to do it then, so it's possible she had an effect to make them decide for sure to do it.</b><br />It always seemed that while they had discussed swearing these oaths, the final decision wasn't made until they were there. The conversation up to the point of the actual swearing had something of 'we'll see how she reacts/test' feel to hit.<br /><br /><b>-Her rapid rise to accepted &#8211; this was also unprecedented.<br /><br />I would assume that the Aes Sedai do not decide to raise a novice right there in front of them.</b><br />Deadsy also covered this pretty well<br /><br /><br /><b>- The Amyrlin&#8217;s use of her in hunting the BA when she is only a novice &#8211; again unprecedented, and arguably a huge error in judgment by Siuan.<br /><br />Again decided before there meeting.</b><br /><br />Do we really know it was decided before the meeting? I'm sure Siuan thought about it, but it could have a rather impulsive order. I imagine she thought shortly afterward something like..'Did I really just charge a novice and an accepted to hunt the BA? What was I thinking?'<br /><br /><b>-Her rapid rise to Amyrlin &#8211; again unprecedented<br /><br />This one is the least likely. She was hundreds of miles away if not more when this was decided. Remember, she was in Cairhien when this was decided.</b><br /><br />I don't think this is the least likely at all. Sure the hall was manipulated to consider Egwene by Siuan, but it was far from certain that the vote would be favorable. Remember Egwene had to wash the feet of all of the sitters. This could where her talent came into affect and influenced the eventual choice of the sitters.<br /><br />-Moridin_2000<br /><br /><b>My main objection, however, is that this is probably just an effect of being close to ta'veren most of her life. I think someone mentioned 'supercharged' by ta'veren and that seemed a good description. All you need to do to confirm this is to look at other people who have been in contact with Rand and co. Thom, Basel Gill, Bayle Domon, Faile, Min. Each of them had their whole lives changed by the ta'veren, maybe even in a single meeting.</b><br /><br />I would say this is a good argument against my theory. However, I just don't think that can go far enough to explain Egwene's accomplishments. She has shown the ability to resist Rand's ta'vereness, and people do things very unprecedented in her presence. Also, I just don't that the litereary clues should be ignored. Why would RJ define a talent like this, and never use it? I still think that Talmanes question about whether Egwene is ta'veren just screams that she has this talent.<br /><br /><br />Another point of evidence that I didn't use because it doesn't quite hold up, but it is humorous enough to warrent a mention:<br /><br />The three ta'veren we know about have something in common that is quite striking: They all get captured/held against their will. Rand with the kidnapping by Elaida's group and possible future problems with Suroth. Perrin with the Whitecloaks and some would argue Faile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, and Mat with the Saenchan and some would argue Tylin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and the AS when he was at the Tower. Who has also demonstrated habits of getting captured and held against their will? Well the 'wondergirls' of course. All three by Be'lal and BA company, Nynaeve and Elayne by forkroot, and Egwene when we last see her in CoT.<br /><br />Sorry about the length <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 10:24:54
subject: <b>A few ramblings on distance</b>
body:
Quoting: (distance)<br /><br /><i>&quot;Minor Talents are seldom given a name, such as the ability to see ta'veren or to duplicate the chance-twisting effect of ta'veren (though in a very small area rarely covering more than a few square feet).&quot;<br /><br />This Brings up a major flaw in most of your evidence, Distance. This ability only works in a &quot;very small area&quot;. Most of decisions making for the events happen when she is not around.<br /><br />There is certainly a bit of ambiguity in small area, but not much. I would say that her influence certainly can't go beyond the limits of a small room and is typically on the scale of the area you would typically occupy when having a conversation of a small amount of people. I would argue that this does not present a major flaw. In all of the cases I sited (and many of the numerous others that could be used) there was close proximaty to people affected.</i><br /><br /><b>My two(or maybe a bit more) cents</b><br /><br />Hasn't RJ said a lot (more so around Egwene than anyone else) that distance is a very ambiguous factor in say in the world of dreams. It would stand to reason that if each person in the pattern was a thread then they would be closer to others in the pattern <u>irrespective of distance</u>.<br /><br />Egwene is close to Elayne, Faloin, Theordrin,. Suian etc. more than other characters even if they are on the opposite ends of the world they are still linked in close proximity <u>in terms of the pattern</u>.<br /><br />Also it is mentioned somewhere (I don&#8217;t have the exact quote) that Rand managed to influence events in even when he is not around showing how powerful his tavereness is so he is affecting threads(people) he has never come across.<br /><br />So ignoring distance:<br /><br />Egwene has the ability to affect decision amongst the people she has met because their thread in the pattern is closely related to her own. This we can maybe class as Level 1 Ta&#8217;verness.<br /><br />Mat and Perin, say have level 2 where they can affect people around them plus people those met by them (a wife of Mat&#8217;s gambler buddy has a freaky accident etc.)<br /><br />And Rand can effect, people who know people who know him... kind of cascade of taverns. Think of it as a pyramid with the tavern at the top&#8230; the larger the pyramid the more powerful the tavern and thus the more popel they can inflecen whether they have any direct conatc or not &#8211; they h<br /><br />Back to original point distance really means nothing in the world.... Mat, Perin and Rand feel themselves linked by the pattern (swirls of colours) but they themselves are spread over the world they are still closely linked. So in terms of pattern all the aforementioned people ARE in close proximity in terms of the pattern so Egwene could have feasibly had a ta&#8217;verness effect on them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don&#8217;t overlook my butt; I work out all the time and reaping burns multiple calories.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 10:59:26
subject: <b>Boli...</b>
body:
I like your idea, however I disagree. First in terms of the talent I propose that Egwene has, distance is absolutely critical in that it is explicitly stated, and even mentions limited to 'a few square feet'. This defines the distance of the effect of this talent into terms of physical distance, rather than proximaty of threads in the pattern. <br /><br />Also, you imply that Egwene is actually a ta'veren. This is not the case. We know of at least 3 people who can see ta'veren (Siuan, Nicola, and Logain). If she were ta'veren, we would have seen mention of it from these people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 14:03:45
subject: <b>a few thoughts</b>
body:
First of all I agree with the theory.  You make a strong case with Egwene fighting off Rand's ta'veren effect.  There has only been one other case that I know of where a person was able to do this and that was Perrin fighting off a urge to return to Rand when he is leaving Tear in tSR.  It shows that Egwene has an important ability to affect ta'veren in some manner.<br /><br />Second, I don't agree with 90% of the evidence.  Others have already mentioned the problem with the distance effect so I will not dwell on it other than by saying I agree.  Just as important is the fact that the skill must involve some sort of conscience control.  If it didn't then there would be no difference between the skill and being a ta'veren.  (Being a ta'veren can come and go as well).  The wording of the description of the talent also makes it clear that the effect is under the control of the person with the talent.  The only event where Egwene can be said to have conscience or subconscience (as in wilder) control of this talent is where she resists Rand's ta'verenness.  Other possibilities may occur when she is taking the test to become accepted and when she first uses the t'a'r ring to get to Tear.  The latter is explained better by the use of 'need'.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 14:15:47
subject: <b>One other point</b>
body:
One other point.  <br /><br />Absense of proof is NOT proof of absence.  This is especially true when it comes to PoVs from RJ.  <br /><br />In other words, just because we haven't heard from Nicola, Siuan or Logain that Egwene is a ta'veren doesn't mean that she is not.  Siuan and Logain have no motive for mentioning it to Egwene.  We don't even know if Siuan had the talent while stilled or how strong it is now that she has been partially healed.  The strongest evidence against Egwene being ta'veren is that Nicola was shocked by seeing Mat 'glow'.  That could easily have to do with the fact that Mat is such a strong ta'veren.  If Egwene was a weak ta'veren (at that time) would Nicola see it?  Even if she saw it would she recognize it enough to care?  If Nicola saw that Egwene was ta'veren after she found out that she had the talent, would she mention it to anyone?  My guess is that she wouldn't for the simple reason that she doesn't like Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 16:42:14
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
I disagree. Just because amazing things happen to Egwene doesn't mean she's Ta'vern. She's a major character in a BOOK. Would reading a book at about boring, everyday people be interesting? No. RJ is just building the story line. It doesn't mean she's Ta'vern. I mean, if that Gray man had killed Egwene, a lot of plot material would go down the toliet. RJ is just being an author. <br /><br />The most believable argument is the one about Egwene holding off Rand's Ta'vern-ness. If Perrin and Rand (2 known Ta'vern) are together, do they cancel each other out?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-06 19:08:37
subject: <b>Missing the point...</b>
body:
Ta'veren do NOT have the ability to resist another ta'veren's pull!  In fact, ta'veren are almost completely at the mercy of the stronger ta'veren.  Mat &amp; Perrin don't fight Rand - instead their lives are pulled along even more than ordinary people.  Perrin's departure from Tear wasn't &quot;beating&quot; the pull of ta'veren - his destiny was to go save the Two Rivers so it couldn't be used against the Dragon Reborn, and to gain a power base, like Mat's Band of the Red Hand.  Perrin THOUGHT the earthquake (from Rand driving Callandor into the floor) was a reaction to his attempt to leave, but he is as wrong as Elayne for assuming Rand was losing his temper over her nasty letter.  It was just RJ showing ONCE AGAIN how people misinterpret events according to their own worldview.  If Egwene really had ta'veren effects popping up when Rand asked her where Salidar was, she would have told him, drawn a map and possibly opened a gateway on the spot to Salidar.  It's like when Mat admits he is drawn by his ta'veren nature to battles, and being around Rand increases the likelihood of his ta'veren luck dumping him into a battle.<br /><br />I'm not saying yes or no to the theory here, just that the primary piece of evidence (Egwene resisting Rand's ta'veren pull), does NOT prove the theory, and if it is evidence at all, it is evidence against (since other ta'veren are even more susceptible than ordinary people).  Ta'veren would explain how that moron is still an active character and no one has yet become fed up with her treachery, hypocrisy and delusions of adequacy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 23:20:04
subject: <b>I guess I could be missing the point, Cannoli, but...</b>
body:
I guess I could be missing the point, Cannoli,  but I don't think so yet.  I think that Egwene's ability to resist telling Rand about Salidar is an important clue.  It tells us that Egwene has some special talent.  Whether or not that talent is duplicating ta'veren remains to be seen but it a good guess seeing that that particular talent is listed in the glossary.<br /><br />I partly disagree with your analysis of Perrin's behaviour in leaving Rand.  Ta'veren ARE drawn to stronger ta'veren, but as we see with Perrin when Perrin's own destiny was at stake he could fight off that pull.  Mat even asks Perrin how he could leave with Rand pulling at him.  Perrin answers that he feels the tug but has something else more important to take care of.  Perrin's tug was not just related to what happened when Rand put Callandor into the stone.  <br /><br />Something similar could have happened with Egwene.  In duplicating the ta'veren effect her own destiny (to become Amyrillin) was the deciding factor in allowing her to fight off Rand's more massive ta'veren effect.<br /><br />I definitely agree with your statement that characters ideas about what happens are often wrong.  Perrin's and Elayne's misinterpretations are classic examples.  It is suprising how many people don't seem to understand this.  Just as suprising are the number of people who think that the characters are stupid for not being as omniscient as the reader is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 23:47:44
subject: <b>the extra evidence</b>
body:
I have to agree, that the only real potential evidence for this theory is Egwene fighting off Rand.<br />As the extra &quot;90%&quot; of the evidence, forget &quot;distance matters&quot;.  Saying that everything happening just because Egwene has some as yet unmentioned Talent (the BWB is separate from the series), defy's Occam's razor, not to mention Grand Unified Theories tend to be neither Grand nor Unified.  Discuss.<br /><br />Egwene is promotion to Accepted isn't due to HER influence - Siuan wants to use her as a hunter, and needs her to be Accepted for this to work.  Plus she far more advanced than a novice (an excuse Siuan can use to convince the rest).  It's because of Siuan, not Egwene.<br />Second, the Wise Ones.  We're talking seriously strong-willed people, and distance is a critical issue.  Egwene couldn't have known to ASK Amys to teach her, so who's manipulating who?<br />Third, the Amyrlinhood.  Why would she WANT this?  The Sitters only selected her because she's strong, young, conceivably malleable, and sacrificial.<br /><br />Of course, both Siuan's original plans and the Sitters' later plans were WRONG, but the plans themselves weren't Egwene's doing.  In my opinion.<br /><br />Which is not to say Egwene DOESN'T have this talent.  Just not based on most of the evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 23:49:51
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Yikes.  The grammatical flaws in my previous post are rather atrocious, aren't they?  Apologies for not proofreading.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-08 08:37:58
subject: <b>Being ta'veren is not a &quot;power&quot;</b>
body:
It is a fact of the ta'veren's existence - he or she is merely one of the people whom the Pattern uses to achieve a specific state of balance.  A ta'veren draws people to him and alters their lives, but it is for the Pattern's purposes and not his glorification.  If ta'veren receive benefits through their altering of the Pattern, they are simply to enable them to fulfil their purposes, in my opinion.  It is stated in the text that ta'veren have even less control over their own lives and destiny than the people tangled in their web. <br />This should be kept in mind when one consideres just how little Egwene actually contributes to Rand's mission.  When you get right down to it, the last thing she did was provide him with an excuse to go back to Falme.  She is really a peripheral character, not assisting Rand or acting in his stead like Mat &amp; Perrin do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-08 23:39:02
subject: <b>I agree in total but . . .</b>
body:
I agree in total that Egwene has this Talent/ability. However, some of the examples you list, as pointed out by other posters, go beyond the scope of the ability, and some happened when she was not present.<br /><br />One tidbit, I believe the ability (I think!?) is mentioned in The Dragon Reborn. It is when Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are going over the lists of stolen ter'angreal. One of them says &quot;Mat would love this&quot;, and it goes on to describe the dice that simulate the chance twisting effects of a ta'veren - tossed dice or coins coming up the same way 100 times in a row, etc. So it is in the series, not just the BWB.<br />


created: 2004-02-09 11:08:36
subject: <b>a few responses...</b>
body:
First: Egwene is not ta'veren. I'm not claiming she is - she isn't. This talent allows her to duplicate the effects of ta'veren. This is different from ta'veren. This is not the pattern influencing things, it is Egwene. I don't believe that concious control is necessary, though I believe it would be possible. I don't see any evidence that Egwene has concious control over this talent.<br /><br />Rabid Wombat:<br /><br />Like I say, I don't believe that consious control is necesary. However, your points are good ones. I would love if RJ would expand on this talent.<br /><br /><b>Absense of proof is NOT proof of absence. This is especially true when it comes to PoVs from RJ. <br /><br />In other words, just because we haven't heard from Nicola, Siuan or Logain that Egwene is a ta'veren doesn't mean that she is not. Siuan and Logain have no motive for mentioning it to Egwene. We don't even know if Siuan had the talent while stilled or how strong it is now that she has been partially healed. The strongest evidence against Egwene being ta'veren is that Nicola was shocked by seeing Mat 'glow'. That could easily have to do with the fact that Mat is such a strong ta'veren. If Egwene was a weak ta'veren (at that time) would Nicola see it? Even if she saw it would she recognize it enough to care? If Nicola saw that Egwene was ta'veren after she found out that she had the talent, would she mention it to anyone? My guess is that she wouldn't for the simple reason that she doesn't like Egwene.</b><br /><br />True about the absense of proof. But I would say the simplest explaination is that nobody has mentioned Egwene is ta'veren because she isn't ta'veren. Remember Nicola has been around Egwene a lot before she ever saw Mat. I also believe that with as many PoV's we've seen from Siuan that Egwene being ta'veren would have been mentioned. The only possible explaination would be that the pattern makes Egwene ta'veren for very short periods of time and then stops - I find this explaination unlikely, unnecessary, and overly complicated. <br /><br />Cannoli: The reason that Egwene was able to counter Rand's ta'verness with this talent comes from the origin. This talent is not controlled by the pattern (as is Rand's ta'vereness), it is controlled (consiously or unconsiously) by Egwene.<br /><br />Comet Sedai: I apologize if I implied that everything that has happened to Egwene is due solely to this talent, that was not my intent. I believe that this talent has been an important <i>aid</i> to her rise. I stand by the argument that something else has been at work with all of the unprecendented stuff that has happened with Egwene, and I believe this talent has been a part of all of that.<br /><br />TheAngryDruid:<br /><b>One tidbit, I believe the ability (I think!?) is mentioned in The Dragon Reborn. It is when Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are going over the lists of stolen ter'angreal. One of them says &quot;Mat would love this&quot;, and it goes on to describe the dice that simulate the chance twisting effects of a ta'veren - tossed dice or coins coming up the same way 100 times in a row, etc. So it is in the series, not just the BWB.</b><br /><br />Thanks, I think that this ter'angreal is probably closely related Egwene's talent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-09 19:22:14
subject: <b>Nice going kcf.</b>
body:
Egwene is not taveren, but can duplicate it within a small area<br /><br />Deadsy and RabidWombat express my views very well.<br /><br />Anyone who views Egwene as not supporting the effort to win the Last Battle is living in a prejudiced ga-ga land.<br />With that comparison, Rand fighting all those useless battles while doing the DO`s work, Mat and his tie to Tuon, and Perrin trying to free Faile, Elayne trying to gain Andor, would all be stupid morons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 14:43:11
subject: <b>Area of effect...</b>
body:
&quot;&quot;Minor Talents are seldom given a name, such as the ability to see ta'veren or to duplicate the chance-twisting effect of ta'veren (though in a very small area rarely covering more than a few square feet).&quot;<br /><br />This Brings up a major flaw in most of your evidence, Distance. This ability only works in a &quot;very small area&quot;. Most of decisions making for the events happen when she is not around.<br />&quot;<br /><br />I disagree, you don't know the decisions didn't happen when Egwene wasn't around, just that they didn't happen THAT TIME she was around. I.e. They could have made the decisions at an encounter with Egwene previous to the one at which they announced the decisions.


created: 2004-02-22 08:43:46
subject: <b>I'm not entirely sure...</b>
body:
It seems resonable, but I haven't actually read the BWB so I only know what you wrote. I'd actually say that other Amyrlins may have this Talent - it seems the sort of thing that just twists chance slightly, making things flow a little smoother...<br />On the other hand, very little of what Egwene has done shows her twisting chance. Rather, she has strong will-power and can resist the pull of a ta'veren. Maybe that is her Talent. Like most Amyrlins (Siuan included) and other strong rulers, Egwene can manipulate people to get what she wants.<br />And (unless my memories are wrong) when Faolain and Theodrin swear, they say that they had already decided to do so.


created: 2004-02-28 14:10:27
subject: <b>IT IS SOOOOO TRUE!!</b>
body:
i have often thought that there was more to Egwene than anyone was letting on. the main thing for me is that she is the only character who knows the secrets of the three 'main' ta'veren. <br />she knows about perrin and the wolves coz she was with him when he met Elyas.<br />she was one of the first (along with nynaeve and Morraine) to know about Rand's channeling AND it was because of her that Rand channeled for the first time anyway (giving Bela strenght to keep running)<br />and Mat HIMSELF told her about his 'spouting the Old tounge' when Mat is normally so close about these things, especially to channelers. typical Ta'veren.<br />


created: 2004-04-25 15:08:36
subject: <b>The Wheel Weaves as The Wheel Wills...</b>
body:
Someone had mentioned earlier that this minor Tav'eren duplicating effect would require some sort of effort, or perhaps thought, but... whenever Rand, Mat or Perrin do it, it isn't consciously. They just happen. So if Egwene does have this minor Talent, I don't think it comes as a conscious act. When and how it's activated? Like I said, The Wheel Weaves as The Wheel Wills...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Big Pointy One<br />Warrior of the Trees<br />...from some other place, anyways.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-21 02:56:57
subject: <b>distance</b>
body:
to the people saying that she wasnt around in most of these events, remember she is a dreamer. My specific point is her being raised to the Amyrlan(sp?) seat.  Im not sure about this cause i havnt read the books in a couple of months, but dosent she visit the little tower in here dreams some times? since T.A.R. is a refliction of the real world couldnt here talent be reflicted also?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-21 15:54:13
subject: <b>Yeah Egwene!</b>
body:
I agree that Egwene is so close with the three major tavern that she has become tavern in her own way. I also think that Nynaeve and Elayne are in this catogory. They all have been in so many situations where they should not of came out on top that it is hard to disagree that they are playing a major role in the pattern and are therefore tavern in thier own way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-21 15:21:53
subject: <b>Min says</b>
body:
Eg and Nyn are pat of the Ta'maral'ailen, web of destiny, spun by the three. They are not ta'veren themself, but still important to the pattern.<br /><br />At least i think it was Min... At least she sai Nyn &quot;is a part of it too&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 14:20:54
subject: <b>if she does</b>
body:
have this talent others too. to go by what everyone else has been saying, Siuan will do as an example. she picked up Logain, escaped fromt the tower, manipulated a huge group of the masters of manipulation and chose the new amrylin and will either bring down Halima (one of the Forsaken) or Elaida/Alviarin Head of The Black Ajah. i'd have thought she was one with a talent like that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 16:34:36
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Well, it sucks to have my theory actually proven wrong, but here it is from the man himself.<br /><br /><blockquote><b>For kcf, again, we have never met anyone who has the Talent of emulating the effects of a ta'veren over a small area.</b></blockquote><br /><br />-Robert Jordan Blog <br /> YET ANOTHER IT SEEMS<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 00:47:15
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Could it be that her role is vital enough to Rand's cause that his ta'veren-ness manipulates those around her?<br />And, regarding the quote about her almost revealing Salidar to Rand, perhaps if he knew, he would have gone to Salidar and, with the enemy's innate ability to track him, inadvertantly revealed them before their time and thereby impaired her ability to play her role to fruition. I think his own ta'veren quality stopped her from revealing the secret, even though he wanted to know, protecting him from himself.<br />I guess I just think that the seeming influence our young heroines have is projected by Rand's own ta'veren quality and it's enhancement of their unique gifts and abilities.


created: 2008-07-03 05:11:17
subject: <b>I don't know , but</b>
body:
There is to much weird stuff going on around her .. maybe if you live close to a ta'veren for a long time , there is a sort of resoncace effect so that you shape the pattern around you in a way that is beneficail to the &quot;main&quot; ta'veren


created: 2009-06-03 20:48:15
subject: <b>you forgot one...</b>
body:
min almost certainly also has this talent. Look at her breeches fashion sweeping the continent! i think the distance thing can have a ripple affect. like, the actual ta'verin twisting happens within a few feet, but that can cause anther thing, which can cause another, and so on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lanfear.gif" border="0" /> =<br />LANFOIRAINE!<br /><br />(i.e. cyndane)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 07:41:16
subject: <b>Shocking!</b>
body:
Wow, you do have a lot of time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As if I'm one to talk. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, this made me laugh. Nice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 10:20:45
subject: <b>nice one</b>
body:
This is a great theory and should finally put it all to rest.  I'm sure that others will try to poke holes in it and twist the obvious to show a different message.  Weak willed fools who cannot come up with their own ideas!<br /><br />Thanks for making me laugh today!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 10:45:06
subject:
<b>Obviously brilliant! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
And I wasted my time to find all these hints from all the books to prove that it was Slayer and even argued with Columbo &amp; Co. about this topic... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-02-04 11:38:17
subject: <b>dang i wish i was smart</b>
body:
wow!  you are the epidemy of coolness!  you have given new meaning to my life!  i aspire to become more like you!  i wish i had the ingenuity to figure out these riddles!<br /><br />lol


created: 2004-02-04 12:11:41
subject: <b>hahahahah...</b>
body:
Thankyou kcf......hahahahahah.....hahahahahaha.......hahahahaha....stomach is acking......hahahaha.....<br /><br /><br />I loved the idea!<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 13:07:26
subject: <b>Amazingly obvious</b>
body:
Wonderful deduction, but I have used the same passage to spell out another message.  &quot;kcf is wrong, Lanfear did do it!&quot;  well, at least I hope there is a k, c, and f in there somewhere.


created: 2004-02-04 13:33:22
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
Of course I'd just like to point out to Columbo and Etzel that he did not find anything to show Taim didn't, even though it clearly says Slayer and Lanfear didn't <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thanks for the entertainment!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 13:55:25
subject: <b>Fyatuk</b>
body:
<b> Of course I'd just like to point out to Columbo and Etzel that he did not find anything to show Taim didn't, even though it clearly says Slayer and Lanfear didn't </b><br /><br />Sure, because even RJ did not imagine that someone could get the idea that Taim is the killer... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-02-04 15:45:28
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Good to see the my humor is shared by others. My wife leaves town for work, I somehow decide that I should go ahead and drink a whole bottle of wine (plus some extra), and this gets spit out. At least the headache wasn't so bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 16:26:54
subject: <b>blimey</b>
body:
tell me the wine so that i might be able to become educated like you that was geneious!(sp?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 21:20:53
subject: <b>Amazing! Brilliant!</b>
body:
That was bloody great! Perfect. Why didn't any of us think to look at it the same way? We're not worthy!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mara Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Servant of all, slave to none<br />Peaceful warrior, ignorant scholar<br />Hopelessly hopeful, patiently persistant<br />One of many, yet one of a kind.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 12:18:46
subject: <b>wahaha</b>
body:
Fantastic theory and brilliantly original methodology. Thanks for lightening things up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 14:53:25
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I like it! Can you do it again and find some more hidden codes? Plz plz plz plz plz...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-02-06 20:11:47
subject: <b>you are a genius!</b>
body:
Thanks for brightening up my day...It's been right under our noses the whole time...Are you a student of some sort (to have all that spare time), and if so, a student of what? Philosphy perhaps? Anyway, well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 10:44:24
subject: <b>one more theory breaker</b>
body:
Thanks to your ingenuity, I decided to try it as well complete with a visionary beverage.  I discovered one more theory  that might poke a hole in your theory:<br /><br />Clearly I saw RJ saying, (and how intuitive is this)  Asmodean did it!!<br /><br />It was really suicide!<br /><br />anyway thanks for the humor


created: 2004-04-16 23:44:47
subject: <b>,.,.,.,.,.,.,.</b>
body:
very nice, I liked it a lot. may I suggest working on that 42 problem next?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">quite.<br /><br />somehow, Lanfear killed Asmodean - i don't know how, but she did it</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 00:48:09
subject: <b>bizz</b>
body:
mabey if i shoot myself you crazy idios will stop bothering me so much! great now im angery! (akk!) call the clinic!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 14:50:06
subject: <b>Kennedy</b>
body:
Well, the last one wasn't such a shocker...anyone who watches enough X-Files most definitely knows that the CIA killed Kennedy.  Or at least some government organization.  They killed Martin Luther King Jr., too...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />I am Conglo!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />(NOT A ROCK!)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" />The Truth is Out There...just ask Queequeg.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 00:45:33
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
one too many of the &quot;mind opening beverages&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Good stuff!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 12:04:29
subject: <b>Good thoughts</b>
body:
But normally Rand becomes such dizzily only in the few moments after he takes saidin or lets go of it. <br /><br />At least Rand thinks that in PoD, ch.13:<br />&quot;Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments.&quot; <br /><br />And in PoD, ch.21:<br />&quot;How often could he seize saidin and risk falling dizzily on his face before he really did fall?&quot;<br /><br />That means when Rand managed to take saidin and after the few moments of dizziness, Rand doesn't feel ill anymore till he lets go of the OP again. <br /><br />If I understand your theory correctly, Rand should be aware of the wounds and be dizzy the whole time he holds saidin but not feel it without holding saidin.


created: 2004-02-04 12:57:51
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree that both of Rands wounds have something to do with his sickness.  The taint had its part too, but now that the taint is cleansed the problem should not be worse.  I think now that Shadar Logoth is gone his wound from Fain's dagger should also subside.  One thing I know for sure, Rand's sickness is what I hate most about the series.  Not the whiny ignorant women, not the stupidity of the shadow, but the damn sickness that has been affecting the hero for the past 3 or 4 books.  I sure hope the Creator does something about it soon.


created: 2004-02-04 13:25:30
subject: <b>I like this better than the crossed BF streams explanation</b>
body:
IMO, the BF interaction was a one time occurrence, while Rand's sickness is an ongoing event. <br /><br />Since a channeler can't Heal themselves, some of the taint of both evils remain inside Rand to continue the fight against each other. I would think that Nynaeve could use the example of what Rand did during the cleansing, to Heal him, although it would probably leave a hole. <br /><br />It appears that Jordan has other plans, though. <br /><br />Anyway, I like it! Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 18:48:56
subject: <b>response to Etzel</b>
body:
In my mind, the fact that the sickness only manifests when he first grabs saidin is more evidence of my theory - he is being made more aware of the two evils and their conflict.  He adjusts after a bit and settles down.  If it was something to do with channeling, he would be sick the whole time he held it.  He has also become dizzy when not touching the source.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 19:25:59
subject: <b>Implication of Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
Is the destruction of Shadar Logoth a clue as to how Rand will be completely healed of his wound? A surgeon, perhaps a Yellow Sister or an Asha'man like Damer Flinn or both would cut the area around Rand's wound, remove the area entirely, creating a bloody pit deep in Rand's side (the hole left deep in the land after Shadar Logoth's gone), then the hole is Healed and Regenerated, making Rand whole? Far fetched, I know. Such a delicate operation could not be done at dangerous Shayol Ghul. Yet...how do we figure how Rand's blood could stain the rock of Shayol Ghul? This far-fetched speculation is reinforced by Rand's Fisher King aspect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 20:47:39
subject: <b>I didn't voteon this one coz I'm not sure</b>
body:
But I like your thinking<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 21:49:47
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Ive long held the opinion that the sickness is a sickness of a type, that he just felt more when he grabbed Saidin, but ran up against a wall when Nyneve delved him at the beginning of WH and found nothing. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 02:22:33
subject: <b>Ok...</b>
body:
<b> In my mind, the fact that the sickness only manifests when he first grabs saidin is more evidence of my theory - he is being made more aware of the two evils and their conflict. He adjusts after a bit and settles down. If it was something to do with channeling, he would be sick the whole time he held it. He has also become dizzy when not touching the source. </b><br /><br />but as said, Cannoli, Rand also feels dizzy after he let go of saidin. <br /><br />I can understand it if you say that when Rand takes the OP and thus becomes more aware of the wounds, he feels ill and needs a few moments to get used to it. <br /><br />But when Rand loses the OP he also feels ill a few moments, although in this case he can't be more aware of the wounds anymore.


created: 2004-02-05 10:21:26
subject: <b>Resonance</b>
body:
Good explanation!<br />If I remember correctly, when Rand comes to Shadar Logoth for laying the trap on the Waygate and for chasing Sammael, he's feeling the interaction between his both wounds to fall into resonance with the evil of Shadar Logoth. Resonance! Resonance between similar power-related structures (as two ter'angreals with similar function) cause problems, a sort of storms. Why not also the resonance between &quot;evils&quot;, where the turbulences-producing ability is definitely greater?<br />And Rand's sickness takes places whem he seizes saidin and when he releases it, i.e. in moments of change of the state of his connection to saidin. What was between the saidin and the person who can seize it (before the cleansing)? The taint. Now it isn't there, but it is it's natural location. The boundary. The location between holding saidin and not holding it. There is the evil's place. DO's evil is draining through boundaries (and the boundaries become weak due to DO's influence). That could be possibly an explanation, why these moments when Rand grasps the OP and when he releases it, are so prone to such resonances. Wheh changing his saidin-connection state Rand is also touching the location of DO's evil.


created: 2004-02-06 13:42:28
subject: <b>A good theory</b>
body:
If it is correct, why couldn`t Damer seal the 2 evils away from each other with clean saidin? This would have to enclose the first seal, obviously.<br /><br />But, it was stated at the time Flynn healed him, that the seal would not last. Perhaps Damer`s healing has completely disintergrated, making Rand become increasingly sicker.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 22:31:02
subject: <b>one thing...</b>
body:
Rand has been expossed to the taint much more than any other male channeler he has used callandor twice for excessive periods of time which as we know magnifies the taint on saidin. he is also in possesion of an angreal he is almost constantly drawing from it to confront forsaken. no other male channeler in this age has benn expossed to such high levels of of the taint. It may be that the effects of the taint are manifesting physicaly in the form of this sickness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-17 14:44:26
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
I don't think its because he's more &quot;aware&quot; of anything...IMHO, I think its a sickness that gets progressively worse as he continues to live: the sickness is not affected by how much he knows, or whatever. At the beginning, there wasn't a diference between how he feels without saidin and with, but thats only because the sickness was not so bad. That he notices now hasnothing to do with saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 12:11:23
subject: <b>Very good. just one problem with facts.</b>
body:
(Lanfear might have done something similar in The Great Hunt to save him from Ba'alzamon's wound: Moiraine said someone had to have done something or he would have died before she was able to help him)<br /><br />Not Lanfear. <br /><br />In tGH chapter 49 page674 of the paperback.<br />Min tells Rand <br />&quot;Moriaine says Nynaeve must have done something, or you wouldn't have lived till we carried you to Verin.&quot;<br /><br />Nynaeve was the one who saved Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 22:27:39
subject: <b>I am compelled to agree.</b>
body:
Good theory.  The thing that jumps out to me is this:  where has any man ever gotten sick from the taint in the way that Rand is sick?  It's never been described that way in the accounts of other men going mad.  The descriptions are:  madness, rotting while still alive, death.  We see several accounts of men going mad from the taint and destroying people and land, but we never see them having a problem getting ahold of the Source.<br />As for Gaeran's comments, I have wondered that for a while.  Why not just cut the tainted portions out and then reHeal the area?  The best explanation I guess is that it cannot be done.  In CoT, when Perrin cuts off the Shaido's hand, it is stated that it could not be Healed.  Now, she never said that they couldn't hold the hand to the arm and Heal them together, but she did imply that.  So, I guess the cutting out of the tainted portions is not going to happen.<br />Guess we'll just have to wait for RJ to fix things.  I too am getting sick of having a hero that is sick.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 23:42:49
subject: <b>I agree with the theory</b>
body:
Rand first encountered the symptoms when using balefire in Shadar Logoth because, firstly, that was Shadar Logoth, after all, and it was interacting with the True Power (that being a power granted by the Dark One) and secondly, because he was drawing heavily on saidin to make it.


created: 2004-03-18 00:43:30
subject: <b>Cleansing Rand</b>
body:
I just read all the comments and I wonder if Rand can be cleansed by an Ashaman (Damer Flynn) and an Aes Sedai (Nynaeve) the way he cleansed Saidin. His taint is not as large as Shadar Logoth so they should be able to link and heal him without killing him. Maybe this is how his blood gets spilled at Shayul Ghul?


created: 2004-04-12 20:55:14
subject: <b>yeah...</b>
body:
but what if it did also have something to do with his channeling. WHat if the taint reacted with the two wounds. also Fain's wound was contained with Saidan which at the time was tainted. Rand could be feeling the effects of the taint on the containment of Fain's wound. He could also be feeling the effects that the taint did have and it is growing worse. Not the taint, but the effect it had (i.e. what it caused, the wound is becoming bigger). Also it was possible that It was Ishy who injured Rand (using the true power) and it could be the effects of the taint, the True Power and the Shadar Logoth wound. I agree with you for the most part, but i think channeling helped make the sickness so strong. CHanneling didn't cause the sickness but did aid it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-24 06:18:05
subject: <b>A Sick Person's Perspective</b>
body:
I've recently been sick, so it might've given me an insight into the feelings Rand is having.  I started trying to figure out why Rand would feel sick AFTER letting go of saidin and it just hit me.  Assume that Rand would, like stated, be more aware of the sickness right before taking hold.  However, during the holding, he would be blocking out the sickness through the Void.  He has stated several times that he felt physical things more remotely.  Why would he then feel it impact him after he let go?  This is where my recent sickness comes into play.  He feels it after letting go from ignoring it in the Void.  From having nausea (side-effect of my crappy medicine), I noticed that I could ignore it by focusing my attention elsewhere.  As soon as I became aware of the nausea again, though, it hit me almost harder than if I had just endured it.  Maybe this is why Rand stumbles after letting go of saidin and then the reaction to the sickness fades as his body adjusts and tolerates it.  RJ usually bases his writings on real-life and he does have a pretty firm grasp of the sciences, so maybe this is the answer.  Anyways, time for me to take some medicine and go to bed.  I hope to get better, but I really would rather Rand got better.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Let me know what you guys think on my insights.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 15:17:27
subject: <b>The Sickness</b>
body:
Well, we don't totally have the whole picture. We are forced to look at events from Rand's perspective of things, and thus our understanding of his &quot;sickness&quot; is most undoubtedly FLAWED. Therefore, nothing should be ruled out in this sutuation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 15:24:27
subject: <b>Hmmmmm......</b>
body:
This theory is very interesting but, as I read more and more into the series, the &quot;dizziness&quot; and other side-effects that Rand feels may be from the channeling after all. We all know that Rand is fated to die at the Last Battle. As the series progresses and the Last Battle looms closer maybe Rand's body is experiencing a side effect of Shaitan breaking loose from the bore in his prison. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


created: 2004-06-07 06:13:12
subject: <b>The evil behind...</b>
body:
... the Shadar Logoth wound was born (as has been mentioned above) of 'hatred and suspicion directed towards the Shadow'. Doesn't that describe pretty well Rand's current mental state? <br /><br />I think the hatred and suspicion growing inside him as he hardens his heart in order, he thinks, to do what he must to defeat the Dark One is actually feeding the SL evil in his side, making its sickness worse. <br /><br />On the other hand, up till he cleansed Saidin, using it was feeding the *other* evil in his side via the taint. <br /><br />What I think happened was that every time he took hold/let go of the Source, there was a dramatic shift in the struggle between the two evils, causing a moment's nausea and disorientation (the Void he enters when channeling would temporarily cut off the emotion which feeds SL's evil, but it would all come flooding back when he let it go).<br /><br />Now, however, there is no taint on Saidin to feed the older wound's evil - so if he continues to fill himself with hate and suspicion, the SL wound will eventually overcome the other and run riot through his body.<br /><br />It would take time to check all the references, but it might also be that whenever he feels sick *without* channeling he's just been gripped by some particularly strong feelings of hate or suspicion, causing a similar shift in the struggle.<br />


created: 2004-07-20 23:46:52
subject: <b>Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
I always thought that the reason that the hole around SL was so big was because that was how far the evil had spread.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-23 21:08:13
subject: <b>My two cents</b>
body:
A good theory but I would disagree on one point and a theory of my own.  First, I think Rand went to Shadar Logoth to cleanse the taint to try to kill 2 birds with one stone, it wasn't necessary for him to use Shadar Logoth as a conduit for the cleansing.  he was there but it was like, &quot;Why here?  Why not?&quot;  the cleansing could have been done ANYWHERE.  Most of these theories revolve around an assumption that it HAD to be at Shadar Logoth.  It didn't have to, I think that Rand had an idea as to what would happen when he cleansed the taint (if you remember, they were OUTSIDE of Shadar Logoth, not in it) and if he knew that a large chunk of earth or whatever would be destroyed, why not Shadar Logoth?  By using Shadar Logoth he would not only cleanse the taint of saidin but also destroy a place of evil.<br /><br />Now my theory.  I think that the taint of saidin, over time affects the body as well as the mind.  At the very beginning he had wild fancies (the fight with the Whitecloaks in Baerlon) but then it began to manifest as naseua and a desire to vomit.  this is a physical reaction.  I've never channeled but I've had an upset stomach and have had to throw up on several occasions, none pleasant and none having to do with the taint.  And this was before he EVER set foot on Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />My two cents...<br /><br />Nikolai Al Farran<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-11 04:20:11
subject: <b>2 cents is about what it is worth, too. Sorry</b>
body:
It DID have to be done at Shadar Logoth.  As I said in my theory, it was the evil of Shadar Logoth that destroyed the taint.  I don't think Rand knew for certain that Shadar Logoth would be consumed as well, but he knew it destroyed things of the Shadow, which is why he skimmed the taint off saidin and dumped it into the city.  Otherwise, he would just have ended up with a big tainted place, assuming the taint would have been able to be removed without being destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 00:42:15
subject: <b>The post two above me is so wrong...</b>
body:
Sorry, poster whom I forget your name two above me, but your comments contain the most glaring errors I have seen about the cleaning of the Taint.<br /><br />Rand had NO IDEA whether or not his method of cleansing the taint would work at all!  All he had was a theory.  You're right, I don't think he knew that Shadar Logoth was the place to do it.  But without it, the cleansing would have been impossible.<br /><br />As it has been discussed in previous theories, the reason the taint siphoned off saidin was because it was ATTRACTED to the evil of Shadar Logoth.  Just like Ag/Balth are attracted to Mat's dagger in TEOTW.  Moiraine says in TEOTW that a Fade would be drawn to the dagger, also.<br /><br />For another example, here's a passage where Rand is in Shadar Logoth in TEOTW:<br /><br />&quot;Ahead of Rand, half a dozen gray tendrils wavered from the windows, a dozen, feeling the air...The tendrils stiffened as Rand galloped between them, but he crouched low on Cloud's back and refused to look at them.  They way beyond was clear.&quot;<br /><br />Then, the Trollocs try to run past:<br /><br />&quot;The thickening tentacles of fog swung uncertainly for a moment, then struck like vipers.  At least two latched to each Trolloc, bathing them in gray light...Four leg-thick tentacles whipped around the Fade...&quot;  (TEOTW, paperback ed., p297-<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />None of Mashadar attacks Rand, but four tentacles grab the Fade?  I'd call that a fatal attraction.  (Sorry, bad pun.)  Without this attraction, the taint would never have &quot;slid off&quot; saidin and into Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Remember, Rand didn't really know what he was going to do.  He had a part of an idea, combined from stuff Herid Fel had told him and stuff the snakes told him in the redstone doorway.  It even says in WH that things weren't exactly like he thought they would act, but they WERE moving, and that was enough.  It was his ta'veren luck that made him pick Shadar Logoth and the weaves in such a manner.<br /><br />And, BTW, it WAS Lanfear who did something to Rand.  From TGH, here's what it says:<br /><br />&quot;Her [Lanfear's] finger brushed Rand's forehead as if drawing a mark; Min thought uneasily that it looked like the Dragon's Fang.  Rand stirred, murmuring, the first sound or movement he had made since she found him.&quot; (TGH, paperback ed., p671)<br /><br />Sound like a healing to me.  Tactile contact, and his sound/movement where he hadn't moved before.  That's a reaction to a healing, even while unconsious.  Then, later, what Min says about it:<br /><br />&quot;'Verin tried Healing, but she said it didn't work the way it should...Moiraine says Nynaeve must have done something, or you wouldn't have lived till we carried you to Verin, but Nynaeve says she was too frightened to light a candle.'&quot; (TGH, paperback ed., p674)<br /><br />Remember, Nynaeve still has her block at this point.  She didn't do anything.  It was Lanfear.


created: 2005-01-03 00:08:31
subject: <b>Excellent theory. I think this is precisely it.</b>
body:
A bit of supplementary evidence:<br /><br />The first time Rand feels the sickness is in Shadar Logoth, the source of the ruby dagger, while Moridin, a servant of the Dark One, is using the True Power, drawn from the Dark One, to strike his balefire.  Again, we have this interaction between two evils, and suddenly the sickness appears.<br /><br />Coincidence?  I doubt it.


created: 2005-02-18 09:21:09
subject: <b>WHO CARES ABOUT BLOODY ELAYNE!</b>
body:
had to get that out, anyway...<br /><br />good, however. i like how there are two battling forces on him. however, im still a bit unsure on how that relates to him channeling...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-07 23:57:18
subject: <b>Don't forget the real world.</b>
body:
All this talk about Rand's wounds or channeling is all well and good, and will in the end probably prove correct. However Rand has been badly injured more then once including numerous blows to the head, in particular during the practice match against the five men and Jordan doesn't shut up about it for ages, it seems to me like a fairly jordanesque thing to do would be to have Rand afflicted by a purely mundane, accidental injury.


created: 2005-09-29 15:00:22
subject: <b>You got me</b>
body:
As I read this post I was off-and-on with you, but when you mentioned feeling pain more precisely, you got me. You hooked me. I agree now.<br /><br />Look at what's been said about Rand's perceptions since the sickness started coming to him. He's been dizzy, sick, etc, but what else? When he was bonded to his 3 wives, they were overwhelmed at the amount of pain he was in, he just didn't realize it. Even the ancient wounds on his hands, the heron brands, still ached. This was near the time when the sickness was first showing up. Later, right before he meets with Bashere and Logain, he's sitting with Min and realizing that he can still feel the pain in his hands, and the two wounds on his side. Almost immediately after, he grasps the Power and is overcome by his sickness.<br /><br />Sounds like an RJ hint to me.


created: 2005-11-06 10:59:40
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
but i also think that his chanelling makes it worse because he is more aware of his sences so the two wounds batteling make him feel worse untill now where he can feel them without saidan.


created: 2006-02-15 13:55:21
subject: <b>Lord of the Morning Sickness reply</b>
body:
I, too, began to wonder if Rand's channeling sickness has anything to do with Elayne's pregnancy.  After all, nausea, dizziness and blurred vision are all pregnancy related complaints.  Elayne is also having problems channeling which she claims is due to her pregnancy and frequently states that she is *not* a victim of morning sickness because of her ability to channel. How would pregancy affect someone who could channel saidin?  So, combining the pregnacy, the bonding and the fact that they both are having problems channeling it seems like a possible theory.


created: 2006-07-08 09:53:02
subject: <b>Lord of the Morning Sickness...</b>
body:
It would be plausible if he first started feeling sick while bonded to a pregnant Elayne. But I believe it began in aCoS or PoD, while Elayne bonds Rand/is pregnant in WH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-12 23:02:53
subject: <b>Reasonable</b>
body:
It makes sense, but leaves some lacking<br /><br />The real solution would be for Rand to ask his Wisdom about Heal-afed. Heals most evil-related injuries in just seven days, now with new nighttime Heal-afed.<br /><br />Warning:side effects may include headache, nausea, dizziness, and proximity to women with eternal head colds *sniff*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-08 19:19:54
subject: <b>Sickness</b>
body:
I like the theory that Rand was/is &quot;feeding&quot; the wounds by channeling and his supicious natrue, and since both would rather destrroy their host than destroy each other it migth be the answer why they beat in counterpnt to each other. Still netherwants to give the other &quot;victory&quot; and thus the progress is very slow since they figth each other almost as much as they try and kill Rand.<br /><br />On a said note I guess these wounds can be the reference in the Phrophecies about &quot;wounds of Madness&quot; he has healed, along with destroying Shadar Logoth and the Taint on Saidin. (One was a wound upon the land/Souls of Men and Creation it self.


created: 2004-02-04 10:07:45
subject: <b>Luck and lightning</b>
body:
This is a lot of speculation with little backup. Your two scenarios may very well happen, but they may just as well not happen. <br /><br />Quote:<br /><br />&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high,<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck; his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.&quot;<br /><br />I see it in another way. Firstly, (and really just nitpicking), is that I see the word Fortune as a metaphor for Mat himself. <br /><br />Secondly, I think you read too much into the third line. I think it only states that his soul IS luck, and his eye IS lightning. In other words, he is lucky and has a sharp eye for things.<br /><br />I agree with you about the fourth line though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: Great to see so many new theories at last. It's been a while. And they're all posted on the same day!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 10:21:55
subject: <b>Don't think so.</b>
body:
I rather think &quot;the lightning his eye&quot; is a metapher for Mat's fighting &amp; war abilitites. <br />Maybe he can hit other armies/his enemies like a lightning.<br /><br />Because Mat's other most prominent features are that he is a &quot;fox&quot; which mentioned in the previous verse, and his luck which is mentioned directly before the lightning part: &quot;luck, his soul&quot;. <br /> <br />In my view this poem describes Mat's character in general.<br /><br />Furthermore, if you say that &quot;he snatches the moons from out of the sky&quot; means Mat kidnapping Tuon, the poem indicates that Mat can already be desribed with &quot;the fox&quot; and &quot;luck; his soul, the lightning his eye&quot; before the kidnapping happens.<br /><br />Since Mat hasn't lose an eye yet but he has already kidnapped Tuon, I believe the lightning part isn't a hint for how Mat will lose an eye.


created: 2004-02-04 12:21:23
subject: <b>Interesting, but I agree with Etzel</b>
body:
It doesn't happen a lot but I agree with Etzel on this one.  I feel the poem is just describing Mat, rather than trying to reveal how he is going to lose an eye.  It does mention the eye again, however, which I consider more foreshadowing that his eye will come into play somewhere in the series.  If the last line deals with Mat kidnapping Tuon, which I think we all agree, then it seems that something should have happened with his eye by now if this poem is meant to signify how he will lose it.


created: 2004-02-04 13:05:28
subject: <b>A lot of opinions on this one</b>
body:
So I'll add mine, too. &quot;The fox that makes the ravens fly&quot; looks like a direct reference to Mat AND his medallion. If you will recall, the eye on the fox of the madallion is the Aes Sedai symbol. <br /><br />Aes Sedai are often used in reference to lightning, such as when Verin, Perrin, Mat and the Shienarens encounter Urien while they are searching for Rand and the Horn. He asks Verin: &quot;Will you call down your lightnings on me now, Aes Sedai?&quot;<br /><br />So, &quot;Luck his soul&quot;= Mat<br />&quot;Lightning his eye&quot;=medallion<br /><br />Looks like just another reference to Mat and his medallion to me.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 14:11:40
subject: <b>Slight alteration prehaps</b>
body:
I think it more likely that this is meant figuratively. Prehaps the SulDam will use lighting and blind him. much more likely than losing an eye. as for how this all ties into giving up half the light of the world to save the other? well I dunno, phehaps the half to save is why he loses his sight.


created: 2004-02-04 16:38:03
subject: <b>crazy thought.....</b>
body:
as i was reaing this i remembered the secne where egewne dreams about mat snaching lightning from the sky, a reference to the creation of gunpowder, and it seem that he might loose his eye playing with the first guns.....silly rhought really but interesting none the less<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 18:00:22
subject: <b>As has been said before........</b>
body:
this is mostly speculation.<br /><br /> I am probably one of the few that think Mat's &quot;loss of an eye&quot; is metaphoric...<br /><br /> Congrat's on your first theory....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 18:03:43
subject: <b>yes, but...</b>
body:
Egwene dreamed of him taking his OWN eye and placing it on a balance scale  and again much later of mat weighing 2 Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and upon his decision depended the world?  Combine this with some loony gunpowder theories and that pretty much leaves enough room for anything to happen yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 18:28:13
subject: <b>Lightning is Rand</b>
body:
Well, Rand is going blind, he is going to end up walking around with a rag over his eyes begging. I think that Rand Mat and Perrin are three parts of a single split hero. Mat will end up serving as Rand's eyes, since Rand is so sickened by his illness that he will not be able uncover his eyes. Whether this is accomplished metaphorically, or through some use of the power I have no clue, or perhaps somehow Mat will actually have to donate one eye to Rand. So Rand is the lightning mentioned in the poem, and Mat giving up half the light of the world, is Mat becoming Rand's eye, so he can see well enough to channel.<br /><br />The flying Ravens are pretty obviously the Seanchan, probably the Deathwatch Guard, going crazy trying to find Tuon.<br /><br />The lightning may be refering to gunpowder, fireworks, if not my previous thought about rand.


created: 2004-02-04 20:46:04
subject: <b>Snake and Foxes</b>
body:
I think Mat will give up his eye as part of a deal with the Finns. One prophesy states that he will give up half the light of the world to save the world. This suggests he will lose his eye voluntarily. The second prophesy about Mat placing his eye on scale is occurring WHILE Thom reaches through flames to reach Moiraines stone.<br /><br />Mat is going to have to make a big deal with the Snakes and Foxes and they will ask for his eye. Thats my take. <br /><br />Oh yeah and as formaking ravens fly I think the ravens is symbolic of either the seanchan or the shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 21:29:16
subject: <b>Seanchan</b>
body:
To me, it seems that it refers to Mat's dealings with the Seanchan.  He's supposed to be fated marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, right?  So it might be him marrying Tuon, and falling in love with her, not paying as much attention to other girls.  Ravens also have some connection with the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 03:37:44
subject: <b>well,.....isnt the quote from the prophecies?</b>
body:
arent those lines from the prophecies of the dragon? i thought noal quotes them from the karatheon cycle. and since the prophecies are about rand, i think, 'He snatches the moons from out of the sky' refers to rand 'binding the daughter of the nine moons', with the help of mat, the fox, and his luck. and i feel 'lightning his eye' is about rand. i dont have the books with me to look up, so sorry if i am wrong.


created: 2004-02-05 07:48:57
subject: <b>I expected people to have problems with this one...</b>
body:
...but I thought that it did raise a good question. I thiunk the lightning in his eye might refer to losing an eye from an exploding gunpowder weapon. The whole malance scal might not refer to a deal, but bore of a choice that will result in the loss of an eye. The lightning/suldam idea is good enough too, though. Almost everyone seems to have a different idea on tthis.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 14:19:24
subject: <b>I don't think he will loose his eye</b>
body:
I think it's Tuon who is &quot;half the worlds light&quot;. Half the world is seanchan, and she is the daughter hire there, the light of seanchan. Or, thats what i thought until someone wrote about the scales... That makes me uncertain... but, he has a eye for girls...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 05:43:19
subject: <b>A very interesting quote.</b>
body:
That prophesy that Noal says I think brings up a reaaly interesting point.<br /><br />&quot;He&quot; is clearly about Mat not Rand. How many other bits in the Prophesies of the Dragon does it say &quot;he.&quot; We've learnt from this quote that &quot;he&quot; is not always Rand.<br /><br />We have never actually read or heard the exact quote about how &quot;he&quot; will bind the nine moons. We only know that it is prophesed because Moiraine asks in tDR &quot;how will &quot;he&quot; bind the 9 moons?&quot; <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-09 18:48:46
subject: <b>Nice stab at a theory</b>
body:
Some people like to go for the first layer; others do not. however regardless of whether you're right or not (everyone deserves their own opinion, screw the taliban!), i just can't agree with you about the suldam taking his eye. Robert jordan, that fickle lil man, likes to foreshadow (which in turn WE enjoy figuring out) and how many times in the early books has Mat been &quot;warned&quot; or &quot;yelled at&quot; because he was too curious about fireworks. I'm pretty sure that Egwene's true dream of Mat bowling cups? at pins that are in reality many people will be the consequence of his inventing guns/cannon (what aludra needs bells/bellcasters for, only iron caster capable of creating cannon). So im going to have to opine Mat will lose his eye inventing cannon. And the other Egwene dream where Mat weighs 2 aes sedai. We have just learned that tuon trains damane, she is capable of learning how to channel, and she just found out that suldam can learn to channel. I'm thinking tuon is one of the aes sedai being weighed. Just a guess, and sorry for ramblin a bit.


created: 2004-02-10 09:37:16
subject: <b>If luck is his soul...</b>
body:
and lightning is his eye, then surely he needs to lose his 'lightning'<br /><br />I think this will come in the form of losing(or leaving) Tuon (she who can call lightning) when they both have to go back and do their duties.  Tuon will complete the marriage ceremony so that Mat knows she loves him and have an emotional farewell.  This could be the heartbreak part to the story or they could get back together again and live happily ever after


created: 2004-02-19 21:19:27
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
He will give up half the light of the world to save it<br /><br />thats the quote that has some real relevace to his eye id guess...&quot;lightning his eye&quot;...erm...mayeby, just i dont think so.<br /><br />it has to be voluntary and for a good reason..im not convinced about the moiraine buisness as he had no real connection to her as such...though i do like the idea of the deal certainaly.  Rand, and the begging...erm..maybey..but, i cant imagine that saving the world really.  Under the circumstances requiring him to be shown where to channel, it would likely involve nynave, who would just control the flows instead of him..i guess.


created: 2004-03-05 12:14:51
subject: <b>re: how matt will lose his eye</b>
body:
it is said in CoT that he knows suldamn can channel because he says somewheres i cant rember where that he will marry quote &quot;a bloody Aes'sedai&quot; as u can see he knows that toun can channel. and there in sequence so some how mat has already had the lighting in his eye i think it means he will know who toun is and want to kidnap her u must find more hidden meanings with RJ not bluntness.<br />-john


created: 2004-06-15 11:57:32
subject: <b>&quot;give up&quot;</b>
body:
If Mat loses an eye I think the key part is that it was said &quot;he would GIVE UP half the light of the world&quot;.  This implies that he is counciously giving his eye up to save the world.  Therefore I find it highly improbable that he would lose it to lighening in a battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Leader of the &quot;Band&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Ultimate Trickster</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-27 03:25:54
subject: <b>What about this?</b>
body:
I personally think that Mat will lose an eye for &quot;gazing upon someone of the Court of the Nine Moons&quot; or something like that.  Since they aren't married yet, once Tuon is returned to the Seanchan Court, she will demand part of his sight for the offence.


created: 2004-08-10 10:51:24
subject: <b>Ummmm i dont think so</b>
body:
lightning his eye is only a metaphor for quick eyes and quick wits, as for losing his eye to the sul'damane i dont think so, first of all no sul'damane could get near him when he has his spear cuz we all kno matt cant be beat with that and they cant channel round him because of the fox head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Calhar! Dovie'andi se tovya sagain! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loth<br />~~M'hael de Shen al Calhar~~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-26 07:04:47
subject: <b>Lose eye, give up half the light, rescue moiraine</b>
body:
I've read the following on the dragonmount site:<br /><br />At ComicCon in San Deigo, CA, Robert Jordan said the following about one of the events in Knife of Dreams: <br /><br />' Something that has previously happened in the series is going to be revealed to have a terrible cost.... When you read it your reaction will be, &quot;Gasp. How horrible!&quot; '<br /><br />Well I personally think losing an eye will provoke some kind of &quot;Gasp. How horrible!&quot; and if it's going to be some kind of sacrifice for something that happened previously in the series (and RJ always seems to be quite scarse with hints about his new books, I guess it has to be something major), so my guess it is the return/rescue of Moiraine in some terrible way...


created: 2004-09-16 18:28:56
subject: <b>lose of the eye</b>
body:
its my belief that perhaps this isn't about him &quot;losing&quot; an eye persay, however we'll not get into that, it say he does lose his eye, my belief is that it will be trying to deduce a use for one of aludras concoctions.


created: 2004-09-24 15:11:59
subject: <b>Maybe not an eye</b>
body:
I don't think giving up half the light of the world is a reference to Mat losing an eye. The light of the world can be considered as coming from two sources:<br />a) The Sun<br />b) The Moon<br />Since Elayne, practically has the sun throne, and Tuon is the daughter of the nine moons, perhaps he will have to give one of them up. More clearly, they both get in trouble and he can only 'rescue' one of them. Since he consideres both of them Aes Sedai, this can also be considered him balancing two Aes Sedai on scales (if that hasn't already occured).


created: 2005-01-19 01:45:07
subject: <b>Mat is definitely going to lose his eye,... and here's why!</b>
body:
If there was only one prophecy, or two, even three which refered to the possibility that he might lose his eye, I might be convinced it may be metaphorical.<br /><br />First is the prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle stating &quot;lightning his eye&quot;.<br /><br />Then is the prophecy of the Aelfinn that he would &quot;give half the light of the world to save the world&quot;.<br /><br />Third is Egwene's first prophecy where he places his eye on a scale.<br /><br />Now if these three theories were the only ones to consider then, I admit, it would be open to metaphorical interpretation, however it is Egwene's next theory that I believe closes this case and I have yet to see mentioned by anyone else. <br /><br />From the Fires of heaven:<br /><br />...Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound<br /><br />What else can that refer to if not a facial wound of some sort.  To my knowledge he has yet to suffer a major head wound that would case such bleeding and a cut to his brow would hardly be of import enough to prompt a viewing by Egwene.<br /><br />PLANT YOUR LIPS ON THAT EYE MAT, AND KISS IT GOODBYE!


created: 2005-01-27 12:07:07
subject: <b>hum</b>
body:
&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high,<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck; his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.&quot;<br /><br />I can see clearly where you got your theory. Luck takes his soul, lighting takes his eye. But I think you are looking to hard at it and in so missing the big picture. It could mean, Luck, is is his soul, and lightning is his eye. Refearing to his ability with war. (as somone already said.) Also it could mean his medalion (someone said that to.) I'll stop resaying everyone and just say that poetry can have many different meanings and be more than one. That is what is good about it. I quess to know the truth you must read and find out! This is a good theory and makes sence, just keep in mind that it is poetry so it could mean everthing, or just one thing! Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />If the wheel weaves as the wheel wills, who wills the wheel to weave???<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:34:43
subject: <b>Tower of Ravens</b>
body:
Isn't there a tower calles the tower of Ravens in Seanchan? His foxhead medallion will protect him from the one power etc...etc... They hang betrayers from the tower of ravens...there is more I want to say but i have to get some work done so I will post something of my own later<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> wills.&quot;<br /><br />a reader <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> and a ranter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Egwene RULES!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Frodo is nothing without Sam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 16:23:41
subject: <b>sometimes you can read to deep or be to literal...</b>
body:
Egwene's first prophecy where he puts his eye on a scale is when he loses his sight and the daylight and any light whatsoever makes him blind...that is when the lightening that Rand called down or when they were heading to Andor hit. It blinded him temporarily.<br /><br />Second, when it says &quot;he will give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot; I thought this meant he is going to be next to tuon when she sits on the crystal throne in SeanChan forming an aliance with rand on the other side of the world to save the world from the dark one.<br /><br />etc...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> wills.&quot;<br /><br />a reader <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> and a ranter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Egwene RULES!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Frodo is nothing without Sam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-07 16:25:28
subject: <b>mat is not going to lose his Eye. Rand will.</b>
body:
Forgive, i have not read through the series in a long while so If I get my facts wrong correct.  As I remember, Moridin was playing that game where thier was a figure the repersented Rand.  That figure was holding his bleeding side (The wound from the dagger, and from Ishamael.  Not only that, but I am sure I remember that the figure had a bandana around one eye (maybe both?)  I can't seem to find the passage now.  So yes, I think that Rand will at least lose half his sight if not all from the sickness or another unknown event.  We know that the tree, Rand, mat, and Perrin will be present and play an important role in the final battle I believe, like what was said before, the Mat will be Rand's sight.


created: 2005-03-09 13:06:08
subject: <b>troubledfaith</b>
body:
If you are right and Rand does lose his eye it will not be from the sickness from the taint. If you have read far into the series Rand and Nyneave cleanse saidin of the taint (sorry if you haven't...I just spoiled it for you).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> wills.&quot;<br /><br />a reader <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> and a ranter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Egwene RULES!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Frodo is nothing without Sam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-12 09:32:32
subject: <b>The vison of a man on a wagon</b>
body:
Remember... they all have these visions, and one of them (I think Perrin?) actually SAW the shape: that of a man on a wagon.<br /><br />Now if you read those passages again (I think they might be in different books), you will see it is THE SAME person who takes them along to Caemlin. That's why I think something terrible happened when using balefire: some part of the past was erased. It could be that our heroes have to go the the *Finns to restore that thread, that part of history.


created: 2005-07-25 05:52:24
subject: <b>seanchan(second line of quote)</b>
body:
The seanchan are ravens and mats is the fox easy. So the make the ravens fly i would take to think means Mat will most likely lead the seanchan in battle or something of the sort...


created: 2009-08-16 07:48:22
subject: <b>His Eye</b>
body:
Not &quot;His Eyes&quot;.<br /><br />The quote merely predicts the loss of an eye, in fact I think it confirms that a physical eye will be lost.


created: 2004-02-10 18:27:14
subject: <b>i dig</b>
body:
Interesting theory - I really dig it.  *has nothing of value to add*<br /><br />peace <br />kaz<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of all that is written, I love only that which is written in blood.  Write with blood, and you will discover that blood is spirit.<br /><br />It is not easy to understand the blood of another.  I hate the reading idler.  -Nietzsche</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 19:18:33
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
Its an interesting theory. If i understand it right your saying that the creator set the weave of the pattern and let it go. He doesn't influence it in any way now that it is created. I guess that at this point in the story line almost anything is a possibility. And theres only one answer RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 19:31:07
subject: <b>he is not outside...</b>
body:
In EotW it is a widely(?) accepted fack that the Creator actually speaks directly to Rand, saying something like &quot;I WILL NOT TAKE PART&quot;, or something of the kind. He thereby has the ability to interfere, but doesn't want to(for reasons unknown...). Of course it could be argued that the voice is someone elses, but I've only seen theories on it actually being the Creator...but if you have an alternate explanation on that, please bring it forward.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 20:32:05
subject: <b>The Creator spoke??</b>
body:
This is a really excellent theory summarizing the nature of the WOT universe, I just had a comment about the message above. I always read the part in tEoTW, where the voice converses with Rand (pg 636 in Hard Cover) <br />Rand: &quot;The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon, this has to end!&quot;<br />Voice: IT IS NOT HERE............... I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.<br />... I always took this conversation to be between Rand and the Dark one, as Rand is calling on the Dark One, &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; to end it now, and the Dark One (the only character ever seen in the books to speak in all capitals, and the Creator never having spoken, appeared, or anything like that) and the Dark One responds that at this point he will take no part, that only his chosen one, Ishmael (who isn't Nae'blis at this point obviously, but is the only one of the Chosen who has been freed occasionally from the seal on the Dark One's prison over the past 3000 years)... that Ishmael is the one who will fight the battle against the Creator's champion at this point. I guess this is my own mini theory within the comments, ... but I just felt I had to write what I thought was common knowledge about this conversation.


created: 2004-02-10 23:09:04
subject: <b>That was the Creator</b>
body:
The Creator spoke to Rand. Though the way RJ explains the world in the guide book, leans toward the Creator not taking part in the world and letting the Wheel correct itself, but I wouldn't go as far as to imply that the Creator cannot interfere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 04:33:04
subject: <b>hmmmmmmmmm</b>
body:
I am going to have to disagree considering that I think that according to RJ the DO and the creator are the antithesis of one another therefore they are equal in power and to add a theory into the comments perhaps this is why the creator has chosen not to interfere because if they are equal in power then perhaps the only way to lock the DO from his creation was to lock himself away at the same time and if the creator were to interfere the chains that bind the DO would also be gone so the DO could interfere as well<br /><br />I just base this on the wild speculations of a sleep deprived man namely me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />when eating tacos try not to laugh...<br />it will save you from a disturbing and disgusting experience...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 04:34:24
subject: <b>forgot something</b>
body:
I forgot to add that i liked the fact that you added in the physics reasoning it adds credence to your speculations considering RJ's backround<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />when eating tacos try not to laugh...<br />it will save you from a disturbing and disgusting experience...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 05:43:30
subject: <b>to enderca25</b>
body:
<br />&quot;ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL&quot; implies that it is not certain that the &quot;chosen one&quot; will perform what must be done. This does not fit with it being referred to Ishy, as he knows what must be done, and certainly is willing to do it(he has done for countless ages..). Additionally Ishy has always been Nae'Blis, or at least there has never been any doubt that he is the dark ones chosen, as he has been for all ages, as Ishy comments several times when facing Rand. Also, since the DO speaks in all capital letters, it's only natural that the Creator would speak in capital letters if he were to speak. I really can't see it being the DO...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 13:41:24
subject: <b>I don't think...</b>
body:
that the Creator created the DO.<br />I believe both are beings from before the beginning of time &amp; creation as also the BWB indicates several times.<br />


created: 2004-02-11 21:25:26
subject: <b>The &quot;clockwork universe&quot;</b>
body:
theory that has been referred to is a philosophy called theism from the age of reason, I believe. Moreover, I recall a story with a similiar situation as Rand's. The Creator, by virtue of being a &quot;creator&quot; cannot harm even an evil entity and needs a hero to to the dirty work, so to speak.  This Creator seems to be so bound by a division of labor rule. Maybe that was the purpose of the creation of the DO: to destroy, so the world wouldn't be overcrowded. Rather wasteful, but, hey, no one asked me. The creator does interact, I believe, He constantly renews and recreates. Maybe.


created: 2004-02-12 11:52:28
subject: <b>mmmmnnnnweeelll...</b>
body:
this smells of the matrix. with the periodical reboots etc. not really my thing.<br />oh, and as to the discussion: <br />the dark one TALKS LIKE THIS<br />the creator (or whoever talked in EotW) <i>TALKS LIKE THIS</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 15:24:57
subject: <b>Like your comment, mierin sedai</b>
body:
Italics may prove it`s the Creator.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 16:04:23
subject: <b>free will</b>
body:
I like the course of the theory, but I think that RJ takes more from the Christian faith than any other.  God granted free will, and from this act comes the ability of men/women to choose good or evil.  Perhaps RJ even goes so far as to include the Lucifer mythos into his series, in this case the DO being the fallen angel.  Lucifer rebelled at God's decision to grant souls to man; perhaps the DO had a similar disagreement.<br /><br />The extension of free will would preclude direct involvement, as it would violate the gift of freedom he awarded.  The DO could then only be confronted by another...angel?  who has willingly chosen to forgo his existence on high and descended to become part of the Pattern as the Dragon?  Who knows...?


created: 2004-02-13 16:04:41
subject: <b>Sounds like the creation of the Lord of the rings type thing</b>
body:
In the lord of the rings, the creator created little minion guys underneath him and they helped make the world, however one, the most powerful one was evil and escaped into the world, and then the creator sent other minions in there after him to help control this evil minion, then he shut that world away into a dimension all its own so that no outside force could affect it, and no inside force could get out...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-16 00:08:20
subject: <b>alternate idea</b>
body:
The creator made the universe and set it in motion, agreed.  If you can accept that people act under free will (ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL...) then if the creator acts he invalidates the entire concept of freewill, he must accept that a lesser individual (ie. dark one, would you make someone or something more powerful than yourself?) can remake what you have done because of your own belief in freewill is strong enough that you will risk it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-20 08:13:42
subject: <b>good</b>
body:
it is interesting.  although i do not think that the creator 'cannot' influence the pattern, and that he has to relie on it fixing itself.  Perhaps he does fix it, but no one can see his method or his tools, since he is omnipotent, time is not an issue, so nothing has to happen immediately, and since it may take a long time the way mortals see it, it appears as if he is not there.  perhaps, the mortals themselves are his tools, like tavern.  they are not entirely free to choose their own path in life.  being bound to the wheel, could only be another way of saying being bound the the will of the creator.


created: 2004-02-22 04:02:58
subject: <b>I agree with your basic theory...</b>
body:
And have nothign else to add on that point.  But to Enderca25: I agree with you, I think that was the DO speaking to Rand; I wrote a theory that was rejected (I still don't know why) that also argued the use of the word &quot;Chosen&quot; indicated it was an opportunity for Rand to become Nae'blis.  Just my two cents.  If anyone's really interested it's somewhere inthe message board, but no one should be that interested <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  Anyway, sorry about the side bar, nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-28 20:15:20
subject:
<b>postscripts... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
just a few post scripts to this theory:<br /><br />1) the idea of directly affecting the pattern is moot - because there is no need for Creator to directly affect it - having built the pattern in such a way as to &quot;self-correct&quot; itself (creating and recreating the Dragon).  We are shown direct evidence of this in Rand declaring himself as the Dragon Reborn - which caused the Pattern to &quot;constrict&quot; and squeeze out the others claiming to be the Dragon Reborn.<br /> <br />2) The Creator may speak to Rand.  This need not be seen as directly affecting the pattern.  As what we think of as &quot;speaking&quot; is simply a series of electro-magnetic waves - all of which could have been encoded in the Pattern and Universe itself in the moment of Creation for the sheer purpose of &quot;speaking&quot; to Rand at the necesary moment to precipitate the necessary actions required by the Pattern.<br /><br />3) There need not be an equality between the Dark One and the Creator as a force opposite to keep the Dark One out.  The very existence of a &quot;Creator&quot; implies creation beyond the Dark One.  It's chickens and eggs I suppose.  But I've always been on the side of the Chicken.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-09 12:46:17
subject: <b>Ishy not Nae'blis</b>
body:
A few things to the commentaried:<br />Ishy is not the Nae'blis: When he, as Morridin, overhears Sammael's claim of being named Nae'blis, he believes it - I think all the forsaken still assume they might or might not get the post, however, no one has it yet.<br />The other thing: I would not overinterpret capital letters in italics. After all, it takes a few volumes after the DO talks again. - Eventually that is just a inconsitency in the form. However, it seems to me more likely, that it was indeed the Creator speaking. Since it would fit perfectly into the way, the Creator is pictured throughout the books:<br />No one really prays or honestly expects the Creator to interfere. In contrast, there're a lot of voices mentioning that for sure the Creator wouldn't help. - They might be proved wrong. But I doubt they will. It wouldn't fit with RJ general approach to problems.


created: 2004-02-11 09:48:52
subject: <b>Nicely laid out...</b>
body:
Of course I don't think that it is very likely (but who does that surprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ). I'll add a few comments.<br /><br />The LTT scenario:<br /><br /><b>Furthermore, RJ said that LTT&#8217;s soul is the same soul Rand has now. <br />Apparently it is a special &#8220;Dragon soul&#8221; since Rand is as the Dragon Reborn the Creator&#8217;s champion in this Age (probably even the Creator calls Rand the &#8220;Chosen One&#8221; in EotW, ch.51, pg.758 ).<br /><br />Thus it speaks against the idea that LTT is the other man, because how can two people become seperated with just one soul?</b><br /><br />Well, I have to go with the 2 personalities, 1 soul idea. I think that this makes sense. You throw in the insanity from the taint and the result are these 2 (I guess there's 3 now) personalities. I'm not saying that LTT comes only from the taint, but I think that the taint plays a role. I found it very interesting when Cadsuane specifically asked about voices in Rand's head. Maybe one of the consequences of the taint is that it somehow taints that individual's thread to the point that personalities from past lives can invade the mind.<br /><br />I still find this theory as the most likely explainations.<br /><br />The Moridin theory:<br /><br />I have never bought this one. I think that this event is easily explained by the contact of the true source with the true power. They are oppossed to one another in a fundamental way, and it basically rocked Rand and Moridin's world as a result. Rand's continued and increased sickness is due to the conflicting wounds in his side. Remember, Rand went to SL to take on Sammael very shortly after Fain's addition to that unhealing wound. Also, since Moridin appears to be unaffected beyond the initial shock, it doesn't work out.<br /><br />The Mordeth Theory:<br /><br />First, I like it (I just don't agree with it). It is a totally new and fresh idea, well presented, and within the realm of possibility.<br /><br /><b>Mordeth tried to consume Fain&#8217;s soul completely but the DO&#8217;s taint protected Fain for some time. <br />Of course later it seems that Mordeth finally overpowered the DO&#8217;s touch on Fain since Fain even starts to call himself Mordeth. </b><br /><br />I disagree here. Mordeth does seem to dominate, but I think that there is a fundamental change that had to occur in him. This is the only way to explain the hatred and need associated with Rand. Mordeth has no reason for this - he was opposed to the shadow. The tie to Rand is a result of the DO and what was done to Fain. So, this is not just Mordeth, but still what Moiraine said - a deadly new combination.<br /><br />Your ascertian that Fain is a spirit/ghost is interesting. I'm not sure if this is correct. It seems likely that Fain is an altogether ancient form of evil that may not be able to be defined in such limiting terms. But I do agree that it appears he needs to possess a body. I disagree with the idea that he will try to take over Rand. I think that Mordeth's goal is to kill Rand, ending his compulsion to find Rand - this could possibly end the internal conflict within Fain and allow Mordeth to finally gain complete control.<br /><br />A point of speculation:<br /><br />What about the dagger? In EotW, regarding the dagger, Aginor roughly says '<i>We followed that here. It is an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy</i>'. Mordeth seems to be tied in a fundamental way to the dagger, why? What is this relationship? Can this be worked into your theory?<br /><br />Sorry about the length <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 10:58:35
subject: <b>I like your theory</b>
body:
But I have to disagree with some points. Like stated above, Mordeth would try to complete the DO's mission for Fain, then take full contral over Fain. In tSR, we see that there are people that will follow Fain, and that he can turn himself to go serten places like palaces. In the tLoC, we see Fain with loards and ladies of some of the biggest house from Tear and Cairhien. to me, this makes out that Fain is anouth to get Mordeth the enflewence Mordeth wants, he just hast to make himself look better. But you do make a lot of good points and I will look for more evadance to suport or distroy the theory in my rereads of the books. But I won't put them here just to get you down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> mentaly insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm the unknown Forsaken also known as NightRaider<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />user of BALEFIRE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Dent Stringer 1912~2004<br />Rest in peace Grandpa, you earned it</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 15:37:15
subject: <b>Mordeth</b>
body:
I have another problem with the part about Mordeth. It seems he prefers to be the Right Hand Man to powerful people, not be one himself. This way he can corrupt them and make them do what he wants.


created: 2004-02-11 17:34:09
subject: <b>An original theory that has a good conclusion.</b>
body:
It would, indeed, be a fitting climax to TG, working as SG and SL operated, during the Cleansing.<br /><br />That said, IMO, Rand is going to break the Seals, spill his blood, and the Bore will heal itself. It could happen that Fain/Mordeth could track Rand, and the DO will defeat Mordeth, and then the Bore will start healing itself.<br /><br />Or not.<br /><br />At least, your theory of Min`s viewing of the merger of two people not being LTT, could account for the 3rd face. We would not have to fit 2 people into the merging.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 19:52:07
subject: <b>Good...</b>
body:
...I also thought of Mordeth when Min talked of the viewing.<br /><br />Two things,<br /><br />1.  Mordeth likes to use others already in control. i.e. Fain's POV when meeting with Lord Turak or again with Pedron Naill.<br /><br />2.  Mordeth became the controling personality only after he recovered the daggar, thus the Daggar and Mordeth are somehow connected.  From Fain's point of view we see that the daggar makes him hole and strong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 20:22:11
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
I think you raise some interesting ideas in your theory, and the fact the one of my theories got a reference makes me like it even more.<br /><br />I think it would make for an interesting tussle if Mordeth tried to possess Rands soul at SG. Keep in mind that there already seem to be 3 people in there, on top of which, at that time the DO would likely be trying much the same thing, possible with the help of Ishmael/Moridin, maybe even Shadar Haran in the mix for good measure. Basically it would be a bit of a Battle Royal for a soul. It could end up like a cartoon science experiment, with people ending u in random different bodies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 04:02:31
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
To kcf,<br /><br /><b> Well, I have to go with the 2 personalities, 1 soul idea. I think that this makes sense. You throw in the insanity from the taint and the result are these 2 (I guess there's 3 now) personalities. I'm not saying that LTT comes only from the taint, but I think that the taint plays a role. I found it very interesting when Cadsuane specifically asked about voices in Rand's head. Maybe one of the consequences of the taint is that it somehow taints that individual's thread to the point that personalities from past lives can invade the mind. </b><br /><br />Like you, I believe that there is one (Dragon-)soul but two (Dragon-)personalities, Rand &amp; LTT. <br />This is also what RJ said. <br />Therefore LTT is not only existent in Rand's imagination.   <br /><br />If there is only one soul, I think LTT can't leave Rand's body without this soul. <br />But as Min says one man <i> will </i> merge with Rand. <br /><br />I don't see how and why LTT leaves Rand's body, but then merges with him again which leads to the death of one of them, although they lived in a quite trouble-free (at least not deadly) coexistence in one body before.<br /><br /><b> I have never bought this one. I think that this event is easily explained by the contact of the true source with the true power. They are oppossed to one another in a fundamental way, and it basically rocked Rand and Moridin's world as a result. Rand's continued and increased sickness is due to the conflicting wounds in his side. Remember, Rand went to SL to take on Sammael very shortly after Fain's addition to that unhealing wound. Also, since Moridin appears to be unaffected beyond the initial shock, it doesn't work out. </b><br /><br />Rand has this channeling sickness, that is right. <br /><br />Besides that Rand has another problem. <br />Since the incident with Moridin he sees a blurred face and hears at least in CoT another voice. <br /><br />I believe it's likely that this is Moridin, although it doesn't mean that with the balefire incident in ACoS Min's viewing was fullfilled since Rand and Moridin didn't merge physically. <br /><br />The other theory is that this blurred face is the 1 Age Dragon. <br />I don't believe it since I don't see any plot relevance for another Dragon personality.<br /><br /><b> I disagree here. Mordeth does seem to dominate, but I think that there is a fundamental change that had to occur in him. This is the only way to explain the hatred and need associated with Rand. Mordeth has no reason for this - he was opposed to the shadow. The tie to Rand is a result of the DO and what was done to Fain. So, this is not just Mordeth, but still what Moiraine said - a deadly new combination. </b><br /><br />That is true. <br /><br />Nevertheless Fain is above all a physical vessle for Mordeth's spirit. <br />I say this vessle can die, and will if the Darkhounds or Slayer catch Fain. <br />We see that Fain is not invulnerable e.g. in WH when Rand wounds him. <br /><br />I believe if this vessle Fain dies, the spirit Mordeth will be free again; he normally can't be destroyed. <br />I believe that Mordeth adopted Fain's ability to track Rand and, as you said, will try to kill Rand, but by consuming his soul.<br /><br />In Fain's case Mordeth didn't achieve to consume his soul completely since Fain had the DO's protection.<br />In Rand's case his special soul will protect him and maybe even destroy Mordeth. <br /><br />I even think that killing Mordeth could be one of the 9 impossible works Rand has to do.<br /><br /><b> Your ascertian that Fain is a spirit/ghost is interesting. I'm not sure if this is correct. It seems likely that Fain is an altogether ancient form of evil that may not be able to be defined in such limiting terms. But I do agree that it appears he needs to possess a body. I disagree with the idea that he will try to take over Rand. I think that Mordeth's goal is to kill Rand, ending his compulsion to find Rand - this could possibly end the internal conflict within Fain and allow Mordeth to finally gain complete control. </b><br /><br />As said, normally if Mordeth takes a body in possession he destroys the soul, that means he also kills the personality of his vessel.<br />Therefore Mordeth will merge with Rand, try to consume Rand's soul and thus kill him, not knowing that Rand's soul will protect and defeat him.<br /><br />This way Mordeth would not only kill Rand (as Fain wanted), but he would be in a vessel which has contact with all powerful leaders of the world and could create much more corruption than in Fain's peddler body.<br /><br /><b> What about the dagger? In EotW, regarding the dagger, Aginor roughly says 'We followed that here. It is an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy'. Mordeth seems to be tied in a fundamental way to the dagger, why? What is this relationship? Can this be worked into your theory? </b><br /><br />Well the dagger is certainly important for Mordeth. <br /><br />But it has nothing to do with his ability to take people in his possession since he also hadn't the dagger when he merged with Fain.<br /><br /><br />To The Forsaken NightRaider,<br /><br /><b> But I have to disagree with some points. Like stated above, Mordeth would try to complete the DO's mission for Fain, then take full contral over Fain. In tSR, we see that there are people that will follow Fain, and that he can turn himself to go serten places like palaces. In the tLoC, we see Fain with loards and ladies of some of the biggest house from Tear and Cairhien. to me, this makes out that Fain is anouth to get Mordeth the enflewence Mordeth wants, he just hast to make himself look better. But you do make a lot of good points and I will look for more evadance to suport or distroy the theory in my rereads of the books. But I won't put them here just to get you down. </b><br /><br />Read my reply to kcf, he would kill Rand.<br /><br />At the moment in Fain's body Mordeth has no other choice than to corrupt powerful men. <br />He can't become a powerful leader by himself.<br /><br />But if he would take over Rand, the leader of half of the Westlands, he could corrupt people in an even easier way.  <br /><br /><br />To loial01,<br /><br /><b> I have another problem with the part about Mordeth. It seems he prefers to be the Right Hand Man to powerful people, not be one himself. This way he can corrupt them and make them do what he wants. </b><br /><br />As said in the other replies I think Mordeth would even more appreciate to be a powerful leader himself. <br />This would also make his corrupting easier since he had access to many other powerful people.<br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> It would, indeed, be a fitting climax to TG, working as SG and SL operated, during the Cleansing.<br /><br />That said, IMO, Rand is going to break the Seals, spill his blood, and the Bore will heal itself. It could happen that Fain/Mordeth could track Rand, and the DO will defeat Mordeth, and then the Bore will start healing itself.<br /><br />Or not.<br /><br />At least, your theory of Min`s viewing of the merger of two people not being LTT, could account for the 3rd face. We would not have to fit 2 people into the merging. </b><br /><br />Thanks. <br />As said this theory shall be an alternative to the other theories on Min's viewing which didn't really convince me. <br /><br /><br />Hey Columbo,<br /><br /><b> 1. Mordeth likes to use others already in control. i.e. Fain's POV when meeting with Lord Turak or again with Pedron Naill. </b><br /><br />As said above, I think Mordeth has no other choice in a vessel like Fain.<br />If he would possess Rand's body he could corrupt even better.<br /><br /><b> 2. Mordeth became the controling personality only after he recovered the daggar, thus the Daggar and Mordeth are somehow connected. From Fain's point of view we see that the daggar makes him hole and strong. </b><br /><br />Yes, the dagger is certainly important. Matrimony Cauthon wrote about it. <br /><br />Maybe it could be that after Mordeth's spirit is destroyed by Rand's soul, Rand also has to destroy the dagger to finish Mordeth forever.<br /><br /><br />To shooganooga,<br /><br /><b> I think it would make for an interesting tussle if Mordeth tried to possess Rands soul at SG. Keep in mind that there already seem to be 3 people in there, on top of which, at that time the DO would likely be trying much the same thing, possible with the help of Ishmael/Moridin, maybe even Shadar Haran in the mix for good measure. Basically it would be a bit of a Battle Royal for a soul. It could end up like a cartoon science experiment, with people ending u in random different bodies. </b><br /><br />Yeah, it could be fun. <br /><br />And in my view it explains the importance of Fain's plot better than the Fain-Gollum theories.


created: 2004-04-14 00:58:12
subject: <b>But..</b>
body:
Would Mordeth run from Rands head and scream Ilyena Ilyena? ZThis theory stretched it a bit to far for me but It was well put together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 09:21:18
subject: <b>All grammatical mistakes aside...</b>
body:
I think this is a rather valid theory.  Rand fighting doubles on the slopes of Dragonmount could result in some rather climactic battles and could lead to an interesting way to satisfy the &quot;must die to live&quot; prophecy without killing off the Rand that we all know and love.  To me, this is the strongest point in your argument.  I think that the events in Mat and Perrin's BoE are just a bit too ambiguous to be able to use them as strong evidence.  However, I do see where you are coming from and agree that it is entirely possible that all three BoE will prove to be foreshadowing.  It would make sense that the dark one's attack that early in the series would be similar to, but weaker than, whatever he will throw at the three heroes at TG.  Nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 10:49:12
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Especially in Perrin's case the bubble really seems to be a kind of foreshadowing of his conflict with the axe.<br /><br />How much the bubbles really foreshadow concrete events in the future will be a RAFO.<br /><br />In any case, good ideas!


created: 2004-02-11 19:02:08
subject: <b>This is a good theory - that the bubbles of evil are</b>
body:
appropriate to their recipients - in fact of the Pattern of their lives. Well done!<br /><br />It is a pity the editing was rushed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 11:06:03
subject: <b>Awesome</b>
body:
That had to be one of the best thought out theories that I have read to date. Your supposition was very thorough and well defended, and I think that you really are on to something. Great job.


created: 2004-02-12 11:55:14
subject: <b>love it</b>
body:
anything that gives me the chance to see Rand die over and over and over has to be a good thing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 13:08:57
subject: <b>Real good, especially Rand's.</b>
body:
I think everyone saw the symbolism right away in Perrin's but this was an excellent job of pointing out the theme to Rand's and Mat's experiences.  This interpretation of Rand's defeat of his bubble fits to a certain extent with my theory of how Rand will need to &quot;embrace pain&quot; in order to relearn laughter &amp; tears.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 15:44:04
subject: <b>A Possible Reason for Mat's Problem</b>
body:
Great theory! It only adds to the already vast complexity of Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />You wondered why the Lord of Swords, Amyrlin Seat and the Queen turned against Mat. Your speculation about Mat's connection to the Seanchan is valid. But it's not quite enough for Rand or Egwene to turn against him (Rand is having a truce with the High LAdy Suroth, Egwene may be rescued with Seanchan help). Perhaps they will turn against him because he betrayed Rand. It is widely held that he will pull a temporary Judas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 13:48:17
subject: <b>Gave a thumb up for originality</b>
body:
I agree these are/could be foreshadowing for their lives as they have been living them, but not for the Last Battle at Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />IMO, Shayol Ghul will be Rand`s alone, and the great battle will be fought all over the globe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-18 09:20:51
subject: <b>Matt's BoE</b>
body:
After Matt's journey via Portal Stones, he insists over and over that he &quot;would never betray&quot; Rand, that Rand had to believe him.  This is of course one of the things that gives rise to the aforementioned temp-Judas theories.  It also fits in wonderfully as a reason that Rand &amp; Co. would turn on Matt.  <br /><br />Just thinking.  Where is it said that Rand and Matt have to be on the same side of the battle at TG?  I thought that Matt only had to be in Rand's presence?


created: 2004-02-19 19:20:28
subject: <b>Perrin's Axe</b>
body:
In the scene with the BoE, he had to throw Faile out of the room to survive. He also had to get her out of Emonds Field to survive that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 23:22:40
subject: <b>Yes throw Faile out</b>
body:
I like the comment of throwing Faile out  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I do hope that Faile, after 13 days of torture, does do Rolan.<br /><br />Wolves mate for life.<br />


created: 2004-09-08 18:04:41
subject: <b>multiple Rands</b>
body:
Maube the BoE are all related since they happened at the same time so the ruler of Swords is a reflection of a bad side of Rand?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 13:30:54
subject: <b>Perrin in 2R</b>
body:
This is actually how Perrin tried to handle things in the Two ivers. He sent Faile away, put himself into harm's way (offering himself to the whitecloaks) and then directed the danger in a safe direction.<br /><br />The thing is, this didn't work in 2R. The WC's didn't move like Perrin expected them (he didn't have as good a grip as he thought) and Faile returned with the help. What's that say about this tactique?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 12:35:20
subject: <b>Great pro &amp; contra summary fo axe and hammer</b>
body:
You convinced me that the axe isn't such bad. <br />Probably Perrin has to choose it and not the hammer. <br /><br />Especially Ishy's pro hammer comment is very remarkable. <br />Also the Dark prophecy in TGH says: &quot;The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.&quot;<br /><br />But by the way, also Verin asks Perrin in TSR, ch.56, after she studied his axe:&quot;When are you going to give this up for the hammer?&quot; <br />It's quite strange that Verin says that if she is not BA and actually the axe is the tool Perrin has to choose. <br /><br />Does Verin know more from some prophecies, or is it just her personal opinion that the hammer is better for Perrin?<br /><br />Another interesting point is in TDR, ch.4. <br />After Perrin's talk with Ishy he mets Lanfear. <br /><br />She tries to seduce him but Perrin says: &quot;No! I am a blacksmith.&quot; <br />Then we read: &quot;her [Lanfear's] smile was pitying. 'Such a little thing to want. You must not listen to those who would try to turn you from your destiny. They would demean you, debase you. Destroy you. Fighting fate can only bring pain. Why choose pain, when you can have glory? When your name can be remembered alongside all the heroes of legend?'&quot;<br /><br />Apparently in Lanfear's view Perrin shall not stay a blacksmith and choose the hammer as Ishy wants. <br />Lanfear encourages Perrin to become a hero, this is his destiny.<br /><br />It seems Lanfear is plotting against Ishy (or the Shadow in general?) here, since she wants the contrary of what Ishy said. <br />Wonder why.<br /><br />Anyway, good work!<br /><br />


created: 2004-02-11 20:27:00
subject: <b>i think he'll choose hammer</b>
body:
i feel that the hammer will represent him &quot;forging&quot; a nation. I also like the argument that him throwing the axe away and becoming the &quot;blacksmith&quot; again will mean the Shiado won't be able to kill him. Which will be one of the ways of unlocking that &quot;blacksmith's puzzle&quot; of the Shiado he's stressing on.<br />I also see Mat and Perrin as being representatives of war and peace to the Dragon. One on either side of him. <br />I could see Perrin choosing the Way of the Leaf before TG (even if it means his death at SG).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 22:37:46
subject: <b>The Hammer</b>
body:
All your little points do make sense and show that the axe isn't all bad.  But it comes down to one thing in my mind.<br /><br />The axe is a weapon used only for destruction and death, while the Hammer is a tool that can be used not only to make things but also as a weapon.  Perrin will choose the hammer because he knows he will have to kill, but he it's not his main desire.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 11:45:27
subject:
<b>you convinced me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
one thing though:<br />I am pretty sure the gaul in a cage thingy was fulfilled when Perrin actually <i>found Gaul in a cage and freed him</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 17:49:42
subject: <b>The axe</b>
body:
If perrin truly gives up the axe for the hammer he will be giving up a part of himself. If he chooses the hammer and finds faile then returns home to the two rivers and forsakes his life as a ta'veren the last battle will be lost because he isn't there. this mainly comes from mins viewings whenever she sees either rand and perrin together of mat and rand together in the aura dealing with the light fighting the dark the light seems to be holding its own. it is my belief that the first time min sees all three of them together that in that aura the light will win, so perrin has to choose the axe. <br /><br />I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that is the way I see it happening (or at least thats what i want ot happen)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 19:08:44
subject: <b>this may help explain</b>
body:
it's useful to look at things in a mythological context (because RJ consciously decided to make these books a source or collection of myth)<br /><br />with that in mind, check out this theory<br /><br />http://wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1044&amp;Category=MythRel<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 13:29:42
subject: <b>He does, will use them interchangeably.</b>
body:
IMO, the &quot;blacksmith puzzle&quot; used so many times in the books is Foreshadowing. For access to the Shaido camp, he will need the hammer. But-<br /><br />For his and the wolves battle against Slayer and the Shadowbrothers, he will need the axe.<br /><br />This could be Egwene`s Dream about the axe chasing him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 15:46:59
subject: <b>look beyond the statements of ISH</b>
body:
in your theory you argued that ISH's comment concerning Perin's hammer was an indication that he should choose the axe.  However, when dealing with the Chosen isn't it a mistake to take their comments at face value.  For example, in their dealings with Rand both Sorilea and Cadsuane mention that in order to get him to do something, they would suggest the obvious.  It's basic reverse-psychology.  Isn't it then possible that this is a common trait among the characters of the series?  RJ often links threads various traits and behaviors throughout many characters, and this might be one of them.  The Hammer is indeed a symbol, but ISH might only have been trying to get Perrin to more fully choose the axe to promote his loss of self, the descent into 'berserker' that you touch on in your theory.  Perhaps Manetheren does reappear in the 4th Age, from the actions taken by Perrin following the Last Battle and the Second Breaking of the World by Rand.  <br /><br />COnclusion:  The axe is the tool that has brought Perrin into a position of prominence; i.e Lord of the Two Rivers, Emissary of the Dragon Reborn, but it is the Hammer that will secure his legend; the man that rebuilt Manetheren, raising a nation from the ashes of Tarmon Gai'don


created: 2004-02-14 21:19:56
subject: <b>partly right mostly wrong</b>
body:
We all know that just because you write alot doesnt make what you said true.  With that in mind i give you a thumbs up for finding all those quotes and twining them together.  However your connection way of determining which he would choose is at best pathetic.  Know before you get piss mad at me let me say that i dont claim to know the answer in its entirety anymore then yourself.  The one area you impress me with though is your refrence to mythology.  If anyone cared to find out and discover Robert Jordan himself admitted to saying something along the lines of that he does indeed sometimes include bits and pieces in his books.  With that said this theory is all that it is and nothing more a theory. RAFO RJ's favorite sentence will shed the truth of this matter soon enough


created: 2004-02-17 16:08:35
subject: <b>seems to me...</b>
body:
That this is a conclusion with a theory fit around it.  It was clear to me in the first couple sentences that you had made your mind up which you <i>wanted</i> Perrin to choose and highlighted a bunch of evidence (term used loosely) in favor of that desire while discounting points against.<br />I give you credit for mentioning opposing points, but mentioning and dismissing opposing points is essentially the same as never mentioning them at all.<br /><br />I think you are too zoomed in on this one.  You talk about the axe and hammer being symbols then try to back up your view with little details.  Nearly everyone who reads the WOT series gets the feeling that the axe is symbol of  evil (however necessary at times) and the hammer is the ideal (the goal).  This feeling can't be supported by quotes because it's in the hundreds of descriptions of the two objects and all of the Perrin POV's.  You're using exceptions to try to prove a rule.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-17 16:46:28
subject: <b>Key to understanding Axe v. Hammer.</b>
body:
The key to understanding the &quot;AXE&quot; vs. &quot;HAMMER&quot; for Perrin is to recognize that the Axe represents violence and war while the Hammer represents building and peace.  When Elyas told Perrin to throw away the Axe if he ever grew to like it, he meant that if Perrin <b>ever</b> grew to <b>like</b> violence (i.e. the Axe) then he must immediately &quot;throw it away&quot; or he will be consumed by evil and violence.  Just as a soldier can continue to be good only so long as he hates the killing he must do.  If he ever starts to enjoy the killing, it's past time to quit.<br /><br />All the references in the books to Axe vs. Hammer are consistent with this.  Of course, he cannot give up fighting just because he wants to, but he can hate the violence he must do.  Perhaps what Ishy had in mind when he encouraged him to take up the hammer and forget the axe was to detour him from war he must make. (I don't remember this incident very well, but I'll take your word for it.)<br /><br />-Pathfinder.<br />


created: 2004-03-08 14:19:43
subject: <b>learning control - and doing unpleasant chores</b>
body:
I like the idea that the Axe could be the right choice.<br /><br />One of Perrin's main problems is that he doesn't like admitting he, himself, is worthy of being a &quot;lord&quot; or &quot;great man&quot;. <br /><br />He has already learnt to reconcile himself to his body, to accept that he is physically strong and &#233;dangerous&quot;. He is careful about his movements etc..<br /><br />I don't think that Perrin will be able to help Rand in the Last Battle until he has come to terms with himself (in his mind). To do this I think he is going to have to learn that he has a potential for violence, for war, for leadership, for ruling... and he will have to learn that this potential can be controlled, used only at need, as he has learnt about his own physical strenght.<br /><br />A hammer doesn't really need to be controlled, repected, but an axe does.<br /><br />So, control the axe, control the mind.<br /><br />And by the way... try building a log house without an axe. Try wood-heating without an axe. Every civilisation has differnt building habits, and in many of them, hammers don't exists, but axes are essential. So whose to say he wont &quot;build a nation&quot; with an axe?<br /><br /><br /><br />scrawny<br /><br />


created: 2004-05-08 11:33:12
subject: <b>he should choose both</b>
body:
There are points for and against hammer and axe so I think Perrin should somehow forge them together so that he will have the positive aspects of both.<br /><br />by the way there was a lot of grammatical errors in this theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-24 22:25:13
subject: <b>spell check</b>
body:
learn to use the frickin spell check, man <br /><br />you sentence structure was awful, it was painful to read<br /><br />but none the less i agree that perrin needs his axe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 22:16:22
subject: <b>Very cool idea</b>
body:
Was I the only one who was seriously freaked out by Perrin's final chapter in CoT?  I think that his decision to dump the axe wasn't such a good thing.  Remember, Elyas justifies Perrin's feeling of &quot;elation&quot; in the middle of battles, but Perrin chucks it anyway.<br /><br />I really like the idea that with the hammer, Perrin's slow thinking with bring even more ruin.  (His killing that fade in TSR was certainly gruesome enough.)  I just can't help but think that Perrin's heading for some bad stuff in the next couple of books.  His focused, methodical way of looking for Faile has caused him to blot out everything else.  Most importantly, Rand.


created: 2004-10-16 15:50:54
subject: <b>Too optimistic</b>
body:
Your theory makes me want to dig up the books and find the evidence against your theory. I agree with those speakers above, who've said that you're way too opmisitic, or too set on choosing the axe.<br /><br />I think what's important is how Perrin himself views axe and hammer. The way the books present the issue makes me believe that while the axe is not necessarily a bad tool, it's not the final one. Your theory brings up a lot of circumstancial evidence that might or might not convince me that the axe is Perrin's final choice - IF I hadn't allready had my mind set up by the clues in the books.<br /><br />BTW, Verin's comment can be found in Ch 56 of tSR I suggest you look at the context before jumping to conclusions.<br /><br />&quot;She shattered his moment of reverie. &quot;Yes, you do. But you do not know what marrying Zarine Bashere means, do you?&quot; She reached up to turn his axe in its loop on his belt, studying it. &quot;When are you going to give this up for the hammer?&quot;<br />Staring at the Aes Sedai, he reined Stepper back a pace, pulling the axe out of her hands, before he knew it. What marrying Faile meant! Give up the axe? What did she mean? What did she know?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


