# w_comment

created: 2006-04-17 21:19:18
subject: <b>please explain</b>
body:
One thing I have never fully under stood was the prologue in tEotW. I thought that the forsaken were sealed away along with the DO at the time LTT and the hundred companions sealed the bore. at that time saidin was tainted by the DO's counter stroke which meant that LTT and the HC would go mad. after LTT went mad he killed his loved ones and THEN Ishy healed him so he could realise what he had done. but wait isn't Ishy one of the forsaken who was put to sleep at the time of sealing the bore? How can he heal LTT then. I may be wrong of coarse. <br />And on this point of LTT being sane, I disagree. Moirane explained in the earlier part of the series that after a man was gentled he could be healed so that he would not slip further into madness. However she also stated that the madness could not be reversed and so he would still be as insane as before but would not get worse. Remember that Graendal has the talents for reintegration of minds and none of the other forsaken do so LTT's madness was not reversed only hindered.


created: 2006-06-19 05:29:42
subject: <b>Robbocop</b>
body:
I always assumed that Ishy healed LTT with the TP... who is to say exactly WHAT the TP can do? I doubt Moiraine knows anything about the existence of the TP, at least at that point. Also, Ishy was not fully sealed within the bore with the rest of the Forsaken... just like how Balthamel and Aginor could age and see events go by. Ishy could actually step into the &quot;real&quot; world at times to influence events. He was behind the Trolloc wars, Hawkwing and he is &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; in Rand's dreams. I actually agree with LTT not being insane NOW, however he did use to be I think. I like the idea that LTT hears present day Rand. However, I think Rand hears a kind of &quot;inverse&quot; of LTT, he is hearing him at first from his own death, etc, etc. Then he slowly proceeds backwards with this. Eventually he reaches a point of &quot;sanity&quot;... hasn't he stopped screaming about Ilyena?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-20 15:24:04
subject: <b>Lews Therin is probably straight nuts, but...</b>
body:
It's pretty clear that Ishamael temporarily heals Lews Therin during the prologue of The Eye of the World, likely with the True Power. He wants him to understand precisely what he's done before he kills him (ridiculous, LTT would have eaten him alive). LTT sees Ileyna's body and the melted walls, gateways, draws a ton of the power, and makes Dragonmount. <br /><br />As for being insane while in Rand's head, that's debatable. He seems nuts to me, but he definitely has moments of lucidity, in addition to obvious knowledge of the One Power, and normal memories, which are occasionally filtered through Rand. <br /><br />The prologue of EotW portrays a far more &quot;insane&quot; Lews Therin; a man who is completely unaware of what's going on around him. But the guy in Rand's head obviously knows what's going on, though sometimes his suggested responses are a bit loony. <br /><br />I don't think it matters either way: the Last Battle is coming, and LTT will play a role in it, maybe even going so far as to control Saidin at the time.<br />


created: 2007-05-07 00:03:14
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
i agree with axon that LTT doesnt seem nearly as mad as the day he died.<br /><br />and also Rand starts worrying about madness as soon as he hears LTT's voice. so maybe Rand is perceiving LTT as mad because he is scared of ending up like that.<br /><br />another quote, from tPoD is when LTT says to Rand, &quot;I wouldn't mind having you in my head, if you wernt so clearly mad.&quot;<br /><br />i think this shows at least partially that LTT's ravings are a byproduct of Rands obvious insanity, with LTT's soul being only slightly crazy.


created: 2009-08-20 06:54:20
subject: <b>EoTW prolouge gives proof he is</b>
body:
&quot;A pity for you&quot; he mused &quot;that one of your sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at healing and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid moments...&quot; (EoTW xi prolouge paperpack)see? ishmael even says that the sanity is temporary and only so lews therin will suffer more before he dies or is horribly tortured. having his memory back does not mean that LTT remained sane only that he retained the last memory he had before he died. and a memory like that is definately something you would carry with you. +


created: 2001-08-13 13:46:43
subject: <b>sounds good</b>
body:
Sounds good to me, the only difference I'd have, would be that instead of them sitting down at Elayne's Command, I have the fealing that Elayne will find the two  blade masters (they both pretty much are) fighting each other.<br /><br />Now the only problem with this is whether or not Rand is blind like many believe he will be.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-08-13 14:19:09
subject: <b>Problems with Galad.</b>
body:
We all know Elayne isnt very fond of Galad... I can see another situation coming up. Rand appears just in time to save his half-brother from being burned to ashes by Elayne.


created: 2001-08-13 14:47:54
subject: <b>You have some problems</b>
body:
The main one being that if the Whitecloaks were headed towards Caemlyn they'd be coming from the south west, not the east.<br /><br />I do like the part about Galad overthrowing Valda, it seems quite likely to me, however I think that it's more likely he'll meet up with Perrin and Morgase and discover it that way.<br /><br />I also like the part about Galad and Rand getting together and comparing histories, that would be interesting, Rand already knows he has a brother somewhere, from the Wise Ones story of his mother.<br /><br />Assuming that Perrin goes to Caemlyn, which I'm sure he will eventually, then by bringing Morgase back Gawyn will be able to see with his own eyes that Rand obviously didn't kill her.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 15:53:00
subject: <b>Comments on Comments</b>
body:
I can't see Rand allowing Gawyn to fight him.  Plus even without the power and without Ta'veren Rand would kick Gawyn's butt from here to Shara!!  Rand's got a lot more experience plus memories from a Blademaster.<br /><br />As far as Elayne hurting Galad.  Elayne never disliked him that much.  Even in Samara she remonstrated with him like a mother or an older sister.  (Galad was completely in the right here in my opinion.  It is hard to believe from tGH and his choice of associates, but Galad in the long run is far more sensible than his younger brother.)  Plus, Elayne has matured quite a bit.  She actually agknowledges him in her head as a half-brother in PoD and in WH, I believe she had hoped he was well.<br /><br />I agree with Jim.  The White Cloaks are known to be near Perrin.  There is no way they can be there and EAST of Caemlyn.  By the way Rand already knows that Galad is his halfbrother.  Galad does not know that though.  I am not quite sure how this knowledge will change anything.  Galad has no duty to his half-brother.  I don't think Galad is in a position to take over leadership of the White Cloaks.  He is rising fast, but that is a long way to go.  Besides, Galad is much more likely to quit that to kill or go against authority just because he disagrees.  There is always the possibility that he recruited a lot of new members that might follow him (of their own accord) once he leaves.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 23:09:46
subject: <b>He might.</b>
body:
He may have put two and two together and got 4.  But I don't think so.  Also does anyone else find it funny that Galad wanted to put his own brother in jail in tEotW?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> I am Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 01:35:22
subject: <b>to oldgrimreaper and Rabid Wombat</b>
body:
I don't think he ever put it together, I don't think he's thought about it that much, just worried about if Elayne and he were closely related, but then again maybe he has.  Also, even if Galad had known Rand was his half-brother, he still would have tried to put him in jail for &quot;breaking into&quot; the palace.  Galad always does what is right.<br /><br />I think that Galad would be more than happy to challenge Valda if he found out what Valda had done to Morgase.  Also he might think it would be right to bring the Whitecloaks back to the theology they originally held when founded and may realize that Valda would be opposed to that.  Just think if the Whitecloaks end up being established in Andor instead of Amadacia, could be interesting.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 12:25:17
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
I just thought i'd mention that it is a good point that the whitcloaks would most likely not be coming from the east.  But, it is possible since they are south of camelyn that they somehow got around that way as they fled the turmoil and are coming up and around. Possible.  THe others are obviously the other royal houses, the borderlanders, and gawyn's younglings. I think.


created: 2001-08-14 15:20:21
subject: <b>In responce to Narishima(is badass)</b>
body:
You may be correct about Rand not knowing about Galad. I don't have LoC with me.  I seem to remember, though, that when Rand had his revelation that he is the son of Taringail that he remembered what the wise ones said about a husband she didn't love and a son she did (or something to that effect).  To me that implies that the fact that Rand knew that Taringail had a son (Galad) was one of the main reasons he suspected that Rand suspected that Taringail was his mother.  In any case it should be easy to reason out.  The next time Rand meets Galad it will probably come to him immediately if it hasn't already.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 04:03:10
subject: <b>On problem...</b>
body:
Your theory relies on the fact that people will sit down and talk about things, and explain them to each other. But i don't think this has even happened in the WoT series to date. For example Rand and Elayne after book 4, never letting their feelings be known to one anther, look what a hash they made of it. I doubt someone like Elayne will be willing to listen and talk to any whitecloak.


created: 2001-08-15 11:31:12
subject: <b>Sigh ( I hate being wrong)</b>
body:
Zoinks ! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I screwed up again (I need to proofread my posts a little better)  In my responce above I confused names.  Taringail was not Rand's mother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> . Tigraine was.  Taringail was Galad's father.  Arrgghhh.  (Damn androgenous names--from my perspective at least)  <br /><br />Also I looked up the reference where Rand found out Tigraine was his mother.  He finds out from Dyelin who tells him straight out that Tigraine was mother to Galad and married to Taringail.  Rand then has his thought about a 'son she loved and a husband she did not'.  This does not prove that Rand put two and two together.  On the other hand, it is quite hard to believe that he didn't.  It is too obvious. <br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 03:05:11
subject: <b>Rand &amp; others</b>
body:
I agree, the fight between Rand &amp; Perrin was fake. It was put on to disguise Perrin's leaving to get maesma.<br /><br />I say that Galad &amp; Rand will have to end up fighting together against Slayer, their uncle. This shall bring them closer together, if they need it by that stage. <br /><br />The armies approaching shall be Gawyn's, the rebels from Tear &amp; a surprise(may be good or bad).<br /><br />There you go hope it isn't wrong


created: 2001-08-17 18:29:14
subject: <b>animosity???</b>
body:
I don't recall any exact quotes, but the so-called animosity between Perrin and Rand was a staged event. Rand needed an excuse to send Perrin away.<br /><br />The only problem was Perrin had to choose something to argue over, and he picked the Aes Sedai debate which just kinda got Rand P/O'd.<br /><br />But there is no real animosity between them.


created: 2001-08-20 01:22:43
subject: <b>My points, if anyone cares</b>
body:
One, Kenco's right. This whole theory relies on people acting sensibly, and that's the last thing these characters do.  I get so pissed at them when they could solve half the world's problems by sitting down at a table and talking it over, and never do. <br />Two, weren't there some Whitecloaks in the vicinity of the Tower?  The Tower is northeast of Caemlyn, and if the Whitecloaks followed the river south and then turned right, they'd be approaching from the west.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 01:38:22
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Four armies are heading for Caemlyn from the east. That they can be identified as four separate groups would make it very unlikely that one of them being Whitecloaks wouldn&#8217;t be recognizable. That, alongside the fact that the Whitecloaks are south and west of Caemlyn, apparently following the Shaido, or at least moving in a similar direction. They aren&#8217;t the borderlander armies either, since those agreed with Elayne to travel toward the south and west, skirting Andor, and searching for Rand toward Murandy.<br /><br />I have the feeling that Rand and Nynaeve are going to be convalescing for a good portion of the next volume, but that doesn&#8217;t prevent many things from falling into place. Where we last left them, there are quite a number of groups who are converging in a fairly small zone of property. Those with Perrin, the Shaido, the Whitecloaks, the Borderlander armies are all to the east of Murandy and to the west of Caemlyn. If they hadn&#8217;t Travelled to Tar Valon, the Salidar Aes Sedai with their army and the Band of the Red Hand would have been heading in that direction as well.<br /><br />Perrin and company will be meeting up with Galad much sooner than Elayne or Rand would, unless some very strange things happen. I&#8217;m uncertain how that meeting will go, since Perrin is still a marked man with the Whitecloaks. Perrin, Masema, and the others with them (the Aes Sedai staying silent or hidden), will ask the Whitecloaks to help recover Faile and two servants. They will not wish to name the Alliandre, the Queen of Ghealdan, and they as yet aren&#8217;t aware that the other is the queen of Andor, whom Valda had abused.<br /><br />When the ladies are rescued, or manage to escape the Shaido, Galad will learn the truth of Valda, and kill him, assuming command of the Whitecloaks and restoring them to their founding principles, instead of the current self-serving ones. Morgase will tell Galad of Perrin&#8217;s honor and trustworthiness, and they will become allies. How all of this will work with Masema about is a good question, but so far he is willing to follow the &#8220;close friend&#8221; of the Dragon Reborn, &#8220;may his name be blessed in the Light forever&#8221;.<br /><br />With Aiel, Dragonsworn, Whitecloaks, Three Rivers folk, Mayeners, and a couple of Aes Sedai all following Perrin at that point, the next group to run into should be the Younglings. Gawyn is reunited with his mother, ends his hatred of Rand, and learns the news that his sister holds the palace at Caemlyn.<br /><br />As to Rand knowing that Galad is his half-brother, it isn&#8217;t explicitly stated, but not very much escapes Rand these days. He has been able to decipher things that have eluded researchers and scholars for centuries in his quest to learn just who and what he is, and what he is supposed to do. He knows who Galad&#8217;s parents are, he knows who his mother is. The person who left obscure clues in various places to which he Travelled, just to make sure that the renegade Asha&#8217;man would find him in Far Madding, surely wouldn&#8217;t miss something so obvious. He knows.<br /><br />Of course, all of this ignores the Seafolk, the Seanchan, the Forsaken, the Black Ajah, and the remaining Asha'man, so there's little chance things will actually play out half that simply. I am convinced that Galad, Gawyn, and Perrin will join forces. It follows the mythological pattern of the Builder, and Perrin was charged with bringing people to Rand, primarily the followers of the Prophet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 03:58:55
subject: <b>Galad and Perrin</b>
body:
There's one thing. If Galad gets into Perrins AND LINI's company, he and Lini are certain to recognize each other.  Now, I wonder, what is going to follow of that... Will Lini tell about Morgase, will she stay hidden from Galad, or what. If Galad recognizes Lini, he sure will want to take care of her, the right thing, you know. And if he starts that, my bet is on Lini taking care of him. :-)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 22:17:40
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
While I don't disagree and I do think that all this happening would be great, I don't see it all coming together quite so fast.  I don't know that just because Rand and Galad had the same mother that Galad will join Rand and his cause.


created: 2002-02-16 12:35:52
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
I agree that Galad and Rand and gonna boogie together sooner or later... and I agree about your assessment of the Big Three... but I disagree on some points. <br />Galad is a White - oops, Child of the Light (i'm imitating another commentator). The Chidren believe that chanelling is wrong. Galad's influence in the Children's scheme of things is not likely to be high, since even if he hides his blood with Rand he cannot hide Elayne (Valda is not a complete git). So how is Galad gonna rock the boat? Nah, it'll be so subtle we don't see it until it happens (though I've got suspicions - watch the Theory post).<br />And where does Egwene fit in? Was she just a passing crush for Galad? Rand and Egwene pulling from opposite directions... hmm.<br />But the rest of your theory (i.e. Rand and Galad say Hi Bro, and the Big three meet up again) yes!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-30 11:20:36
subject: <b>Galad vs Valda</b>
body:
The Galad vs Valda fight is inevitable.  Remember that Valda is a blademaster (major foreshadowing)?  Galad will defeat him and be awarded his heron mark blade, thus raising him much higher in the eyes of many of the Whitecloaks.  Because of Morgase he will join with Perrin.  Some of the Whitecloaks, led obviously by Dain Bornhald and Byar, will split off and there will be two separate Whitecloaks sects with differing views.  Bornhalds with the old view, and Galad's with a view more in tune with the original vision of the Whitecloaks.


created: 2003-02-03 14:53:57
subject: <b>Animosity?</b>
body:
I think your theories about what may/has to happen are pretty good specualtion on your part, and I probably never would have thought of half of it, but you mentioned some animosity between Rand and Perrin??....Last time I read about them actually being together Rand &quot;tried to kill Perrin&quot; but it was all just a show so Perrin could have an excuse and some cover to go get Masema. Rand and Perrin had it all worked out before, as Rand mentions when he wishes that Perrin had not chosen the Aes Sedai as the topic for their &quot;argument&quot;. If I'm wrong here, sorry, but I'm fairly certain there isn't really any animostiy between the two, so reuniting should prove much less of a hassle than you predicted. And yes, I agree it will definately return Morgase to the city and her children.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i><font face="book antiqua">On an island where no one lives,<br />We build a treehouse together.</font></i><br /><font color="white">-----</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-24 17:41:15
subject: <b>i like what you have to say but....</b>
body:
i think you are wrong on a few points but it is not your fault because you were not able to know what was going to happen in book 10.  but i agree with everything else and i think RJ needs to light a fire under his ass and get moving if he wants to finish the series in two books.  <br /><br />Oh Light, how will he do it?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-10 21:43:23
subject: <b>Galad and Rand together as one</b>
body:
i feel that glad and rand should meet up and experience each other one on one.<br />Personally though, I think the big three should all explore each other frequently. They should do this quickly before they hit the path of the righteous creature and loose all their magic points. We all know that magic points take up a great deal of time, magic is something you have to be careful with.


created: 2004-03-08 18:30:36
subject: <b>Can Galad Channel?</b>
body:
I agree with Kinblondeel that it is more than unlikely, that Rand and Galad will sit down and talk! - I haven't seen anyone that sensible through ten volumes WOT.<br />However, what I wonder is: Could Galad learn to Channel? After all his brother and his sister are both very strong in the power...


created: 2005-04-03 10:57:07
subject: <b>Gawyn will Kill Galad</b>
body:
I agree with what you said about Galad learning that Rand and him are in fact brothers.  However, i believe shortly after Gawyn will show up and will try and fight Rand.  Galad interviens and is thrown in a battle with Gawyn, either that or somehow Galad gives his life in order to save rands from Gawyn.  Hard to say which.  After Galad is dead Gawyn realizes what he has done and joins Rands side.  He then fulfills the prophecy made by nicola (pg. 353 LoC) and becomes the Lion Sword.


created: 2001-08-13 17:49:06
subject: <b>song remains the same</b>
body:
contrary to the talk on this subject, I do think that the song will be rediscovered.  First off, the image of Perrin standing amongst growing trees, I like that.  In addition, I see aram as almost a intermediary between the ail and the tinkers because he shares qualities of both.  Finally, I just see the song as being a powerful weapon against the blight and it's destruction. Remember how the green man was able to hold the blight back? I think the song could be part of the final assault on the blight and the darkone.  Plus, perhaps the nymn are spawned from the singing in a way and that with their rebirth comes a new dynamic to the song.  Don't count it out yet.


created: 2001-08-13 19:21:53
subject: <b>The Nym are not gone.</b>
body:
That is, they can be recreated again, as they were actually made by humans using the One Power.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 01:29:25
subject: <b>To Bad Ash</b>
body:
In tSR the Aiel who break off from the other Aiel and become the Tinkers mention finding the songs.<br />&quot;My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing.  We mean to find a place where we can be safe and sing again.&quot;<br />&quot;We mean to find that safe place.  And the songs, too.  We will!&quot;<br /><br />So they are searching for a song even if they no longer remember what it is about exactly or even why.<br /><br />As for the original theory I still think that the song could be sung, just because the Ogier don't know it doesn't mean that they couldn't still perform it.  However without the Nym it may not do much good, who knows, it may not even be resolved by the end of the series.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 07:01:16
subject: <b>Song</b>
body:
I always thouhgt that the song was something from Mat's memories!!!<br /><br />Tinkers haven't heard it because it's been singed in Palace's only, before it died away!!<br /><br />Ultimate J&#196;L&#196; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-14 15:31:08
subject: <b>Isn't Aram a Darkfriend?</b>
body:
While I agree that Perrin will have something to do with<br />finding the song, I thought previous posts had pretty much<br />established that Aram is a Darkfriend (maybe even the one<br />at the beginning of the Great Hunt) and that Min's viewings<br />about someone who is a danger to Perrin were about our least<br />favorite ex-Tinker.  Jordan keeps going on about how much<br />he seems to enjoy killing - and do we think it's just a mere<br />coincidence he survived the slaughter of his family? Hell no.<br />The boy's pure evil, and he won't ever find the Song.<br /><br />Perrin, on the other hand, will (we can hope it comes out as<br />a funeral dirge as Faile's body goes up in flames, right?).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 22:15:30
subject: <b>Why does everybody hate Aram and Faile?</b>
body:
I know this has nothing to do with the theory but why does everybody hate these two people.  Faile is just looking out for the interest of her husband unless your talking about her temper and such which is just related to a difference in cultural practices. And I feel sad for Aram he has, like the Aiel, been consumed by death and violence because he has forsaken a strong belief by which he has lived his life when that was taken away the sword is what took its place.  And who ever said he was a darkfriend.  That has no basis that I can see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 22:20:02
subject: <b>aiel and aram</b>
body:
The Aiel dislike aram too think back to when the aiel are around him they whisper and look at him like a traitor


created: 2001-08-20 14:01:19
subject: <b>The AIEL singing</b>
body:
In the memories from rands ancestors, some aes sedai tells (let's call him rand) that hundreds/thousands of aiel had been killed by a forsaken/ one of the male aes sedai gone mad. They had wanted to turn him back to what he was (or something) make him remember who he were. so they (joined hands and) stood in a big circle around him SINGING! Not even defending themselves or trying to escape as he crushed them to tiny little pieces. Anyway... No Nym or Ogier were mentioned, so they&#168;ve got nothing to do with it. More evidence in what someone said here about &quot;people would come just to hear us sing&quot;


created: 2001-09-04 00:21:48
subject: <b>Arams a what?</b>
body:
Where is the suggestion that Aram is a DF? I mean sure he may be a violent morose mo'fo, but I don't see him being a traitor. Perrin is the last thing he really has to believe in anymore.<br /><br />   SO I'll take this to mean that I really am the only one whom thinks Aram is a cutey. Awww well... less competition woo hoo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 05:32:53
subject: <b>Hmm... That Tinker with a sword looks unstable to me. *g*</b>
body:
Egwene's dreams: &quot;Perrin, lounging with Faile in his lap, kissing her while she played with the short-cut beard that he wore in the dream. Behind them two banners waved, a red wolf's head and a crimson eagle. A man in a bright yellow coat stood near to Perrin's shoulder, a sword strapped to his back; in some way she knew that he was a Tinker. Every time he moved closer to Perrin it was as if a chill of doom shot through everything.&quot; From 'The Fires of Heaven', pages 300-301.<br /><br />     In the prologue of 'The Great Hunt' called 'In the Shadow' Bors aka Jaichim Carridin, an Inquistor of the Whitecloaks, describes the various other followers of the Dark One. In one observation, &quot;A man in a high-collared, sky-blue Shienaran coat passed him with a wary, head-to-toe glance through the eyeholes of his mask. The man's carriage named him soldier; the set of his shoulders, the way his gaze never rested in one place for long, and the way his hand seemed ready to dart for a sword that was not there, all proclaimed it.&quot; My second read through the book I thought of Ingtar, may he find peace,  immediately. In another one, &quot;His nose wrinkled in disgust in sudden digust. Even a Tinker, in bright green breeches and a virulent yellow coat.&quot;, made &quot;Aram!&quot; jump out in my mind.<br /><br />     If we look back at his first encounter with Perrin and Egwene he isn't all that faithful of the Way of the Leaf. He becomes irritated, smug, and angry easily. When Perrin offers an apology for getting angry himself, Aram's grandfather says something that helped that spark of recognition in 'In the Shadow'. &quot;Aram is a troubled young man, &quot; Rean added sadly. &quot;He is a good boy, but sometimes I think he finds the Way of the Leaf a hard way. Some do, I fear.&quot; From the 'The Eye of the World' pages 372-373.<br /><br />     Aram's grief over his mother's death reads real enough in 'The Shadow Rising' and he has looked on weapons with distaste and sadness. He shivered when he came in to the armed camp at Emond's Field. Not the actions of a person knee-deep in murder and evil, yes?<br /><br />      He chose the sword for himself, but did he ever condone violence in the first place? Did Aram make a decision earlier to abandon the Way? Could he have gotten away to have gone to the meeting in  'In the Shadow'? Is the theory that he felt a better way to protect his family, his people, their way of life, was to make a deal,  ludicrous? Ingtar did it. He only wanted to stem the tide of great nations, great people, falling to the Blight. He had no more hope that the Light would win. Did Aram ever come to that conclusion as well? I have my suspicions. No proof. It's only a way-out theory. What say all of you?


created: 2002-03-16 04:04:24
subject: <b>Enouff of Aram.</b>
body:
I will try to get to the subject here... The song can be found. I personaly wonder if an Ogier with treesinging can &quot;heal&quot; a Nym... it would requier a strong singer, and I think that Loil with some tinkers, and possibally Aile could to it. I mean, who knows how powerfull his song is, and plants always have some sort of seed...


created: 2002-04-25 16:31:52
subject: <b>Aiel</b>
body:
Interesting theory. I've always thought it would be a fitting irony if the Aiel were a major key in finding the Song.  <br /><br />But, what i see as the biggest 3000 year old joke is not the Tinkers.  The Tinkers have held their belief.  The biggest joke is the Aiel, and the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs know it.  They know they broke faith.  While they abhor the Tinkers, they are Tinkers.  They rightfully abhor the sword, as part of the Way, but they have picked up every other weapon.  Don't get me wrong, i like the Aiel, but they are the joke.


created: 2002-09-06 14:33:21
subject: <b>The Aiel aren't a joke to me.</b>
body:
I think that the fact that the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs know their history and move on with their lives does not make them hypocrites, but indicates their maturity as human beings. They've faced the truth about their history, accepted it and gotten on with their lives. An admirable trait, I'd say. They've even maintained a core belief of the Way of the Leaf: acceptance of fate. They've accepted their role without fighting against it or losing hope.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 00:53:51
subject: <b>Maybe a Tinker will go through the glass columns....</b>
body:
?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Nikikins~~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> &quot;It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got.&quot;  Sheryl Crow</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 14:22:11
subject: <b>Perrin's singing ability</b>
body:
Just a very minor detail that could be important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You me when I think really think about it<br />    Are the same&quot; Ikkyu Sojun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Joy is in the ears that hear,<br />    Not in the mouth that speaks.&quot; Giantish saying <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 01:39:22
subject: <b>Regarding Perrin's singing ability</b>
body:
I can't find it in tEotW but it's in one of the first 4 books because I just read them but Perrin cannot sing.  At one point, others are singing and he thinks he might like to join them but he does not because people have said enough times he sounds like a frog or similar.  I'm not sure why the detail might be important but I'll try to find the exact quote.


created: 2001-08-14 03:58:37
subject: <b>The Creator</b>
body:
That's an intriguing theory, but Jordan, while not prone to answering questions about where the books are going often talks about the myths that drive the books.  He often speaks of the DO as being the balance to the creator.  To me that indicats TC is a definite singular force.


created: 2001-08-14 15:09:47
subject: <b>ddin't Jordans confirm...</b>
body:
that it was the Creator who spoke at the end of tEotW ? I tought so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 21:43:28
subject: <b>to B.A.....</b>
body:
paradigm???? didn't I raise you better than that????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 18:46:58
subject: <b>Gee, could have fooled me...</b>
body:
&quot;It is common in us all to believe in a higher power because without that higher power&quot;<br /><br />It is common, but not common in us all.  I think that people could have potentially lived without creating a religion...but that is beside the point.<br /><br />We've heard the Creator speak, at the end of tEOtW.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 15:45:15
subject: <b>Lack of Creator</b>
body:
I really don't think there is a lack of a creator,or to put it in other words there is a Creator who is a benevolent deity, the human beings as a creator would be almost too much of a rip-off from Robert Heinlein's &quot;Stranger in a Strange Land&quot;<br />&quot;I am God, Thou art God, all that groks is God&quot;<br />while I think this is a brilliant book I don't believe RJ has gone in this direction<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 20:57:39
subject: <b>The Creator has Spoken? At the end of EOW. Wow!</b>
body:
I didn't know that the creator speaks at the end of EOW.  Ill have to find that.  Anyway, you have a nice theory going, I like it even though I don't agree with it.  I like to think of the Creator as a Singular Being.  <br /><br />You do have good evidence for your theory though.  We have never seen the Creator ever use her power. And also, the   Creator is rarely mentioned at all.  The Dark One is discussed 100 times more than the creator.  ( although there are reasons for it since he is the source of most of the problems the characters face. )  Even in ancient records from the age of legends, the Creator is always sitting on the sidlines.  <br /><br />I say again that you have a nice theory and you do have good evedence.  But I think that this rumor that the Creator talks at the end of EOW beats anything you can dish up.  Nice job though!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Yes Forsaken,&quot; Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep-winter ice. &quot;Past time!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Heroes are the people who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />     -Silverlight<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-02 15:48:58
subject: <b>umm, its been told</b>
body:
Its interesting to note that in the various interviews with RJ, he mentions many times that the creator and DO are equal.  He mentions the Creator and DO in many different subjects, so if the author belives that they are separate, doesn't that generally mean they are?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You're a monster!<br /><br />Do you know, the muffin man?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Well, you're kind of an ogre, and Shrek...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-09 01:12:39
subject: <b>My Belief</b>
body:
I tried to post a Theory but I think it smacked too much of this one, but I think that you have a somewhat point in belief at least.  I think the creator and the DO are seperate equal beings now, but at one point they were one and Rand has to reunite them into a whole balanced individual at the last battle.  Good evidence with snake biting tail.


created: 2001-08-13 22:50:26
subject: <b>The effects</b>
body:
I don't think that the side effets of the dagger are directly responcible for mats luck...However, being healed from his link to it may have brought him around to his ta'vareness and the luck is from being ta'varen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> I am Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 01:13:10
subject: <b>Mat came to the wrong conclusion</b>
body:
It was just coincedence that his luck started changing at the time he first got the dagger, it's the same time he started being ta'veren.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 01:45:53
subject: <b>fain IS lucky</b>
body:
well responding to comments that fain is not any luckier, how about how he can never be killed, always managing to stay alive, for example with the whitecloaks in the two rivers sometime, they set a trap for him but he escaped, when he cut rand with the dagger and escaped min's throw, <br />seems pretty lucky to me...


created: 2001-08-14 10:49:20
subject: <b>Being Ta'veren, not the Dagger...</b>
body:
is rsponsible for his luck.We know that Ta'veren all have some particular aspect to them that make them special... Mat's is his luck.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 16:15:46
subject: <b>Mat's luck</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, Mat at one point was thinking about his luck<br />and was suprised. He commented to himself(in his head) that he had always been lucky, but this was strange how he won all the time.<br />I think this was in The Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />As for him suddenly becoming ta'veren, I disagree. I think that is something that you are always.<br />But since he was lucky all his life luck may be one of Mat's <br />manifestations of his ta'verness?<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-16 18:42:24
subject: <b>Ralph -</b>
body:
You become or attain ta'veren, you are not always ta'veren.<br /><br />As for the theory, I don't know how Mat's luck is running out (I nver noticed) but &quot;only time will tell&quot; is a common phrase which means we might know in the future...it does not mean time drains it away.  I expect you don't speak English as a first language, because otherwise you'd have known that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 09:06:55
subject: <b>You are always ta'veren...</b>
body:
He's been ta'veren from birth, as every other ta'veren.  This is proven by him saying that he had always been lucky.  It's just not shown that he is ta'veren until a later point in his life...


created: 2001-08-31 16:28:17
subject: <b>Taverenness</b>
body:
Just wanted to say that taveren aren't always taveren.  Hawkwing was one, but he wasn't all his life.  I think Loial said something like &quot;Taveren shape the pattern for a time&quot; or something similar.  I know he said it was only for a time, though. It's not something you do from birth.  I mean, with three taveren in Emonds Field, don't you think they would have the weirdest stories to tell?  We hear all sorts of stuff during Rands walk to Tear, but none of that seemed to be in Emonds Field.<br />Rock on.<br />Patrick


created: 2001-09-01 15:43:03
subject: <b>i need some help with this</b>
body:
<br /><br />I dont have my books in front of me, but i seem to recall when Mat was in the white tower he came across a terangreal in the shape of 5 dice....I maybe way off on this, its been awhile, since ive read TGH, but, if there was such a terangreal, what else could it be for?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 12:41:20
subject: <b>Dice</b>
body:
If I remember correctly Mat started his gambling spree after he was healed in Tar Valon of the taint.  And somewhere before that he received some dice.  And it's quite possible that these dice are the reason for his luck.  They are some sort of ter'agreal that doesn't require the user to channel, only to be near them.  I'll have to check on it, but I think that Lanfear had something to do with this.<br />


created: 2001-10-23 14:35:33
subject: <b>Dice ter'angreal</b>
body:
The dice ter'angreal you guys are talking about was found by Elayne in Ebou Dar. Mat does not have them, nor was he given any dice.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-13 06:40:23
subject: <b>you ARE ta'veren ALL of your life</b>
body:
you are born ta'veren..... but that does not mean that you are always shaping the pattern..... Rand, Mat and Perrin are not always having affects  on the pattern,  only when it matters does their ta'vereness show itself.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Walk in the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-05 00:32:08
subject: <b>About those dice</b>
body:
The dice ter'angreal was taken from the tower by the black ajah sisters who Elyane, Nynaeve, and Egwene went after in TDR. Mat wasn't given any dice. When he was first concious after being healed, one of the first things he did was check to see if he still had his dice. I assume that is what you are talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love animated smilies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 13:04:07
subject: <b>its not luck, its mat.</b>
body:
look: the dagger only makes people so outrageously *themselves*. it doesn't have anything to do with luck. i forget the  shadar logoth = aridhol = mordeth's inate evil via the shadow explanation ... but the dagger was turning mat into mordeth incarnate with mat's own ability to remember the past just as fain turned super evil in his own way as he becamse mordeth incarnate.<br /><br />Mat's luck was always there, he said so himself, he just never took the risks or saw the super luck that 'becoming' mordeth gave him. mat also spoke the old tongue before carrying the dagger, brokenly.<br /><br />another point ... lan once said hawkwing was the most powerful taveren ever in whose presence kids fell from balconies, lived, people threw dice that landed the same or coins that landed on their side. isn't that what mat does? only mat himself does it consistently. thus mat's luck is nothing more han his *living* his taveren'ness ... just as his memories are nothing more than his *knowing* his taveren'ness, so to say.<br /><br />the dagger just brought all that stuff to life (mordeth incarnate) without the resulting evil ... lucky for Mat, eh? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-13 13:28:04
subject: <b>have you read the role play game?</b>
body:
I'm not sure if the informations in the rule book are percise o had been changed to create a more easyplayin' game<br />but in it there is also a description of the main character of the saga and the luck of mat is explained as an effect of being ta'veren. <br />I believe that the information are correct because jordan himself has controlled them ( or at least so is written)<br />Anyway, does anybody knows that someone can stop beeingta'veren when his role in the pattern is ended (and not necessarly ended with dead, you simply lose your specials benefits? I didn't understand it untill I've read it in the role playing book<br /><br />roland of gilead<br />seeker of the Black Tower (non asha'man's once)


created: 2002-02-28 02:05:53
subject: <b>Raserei, Fain IS lucky!</b>
body:
Fain IS lucky. (IMHO) I don't have my books here but Slayer said &quot;that renegade has more luck than...&quot; and he was referring to Fain. He said this in the two rivers i think, when bornhald went to meet perrin.<br /><br />plus the remarks of aikidoka (sp?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 16:04:36
subject: <b>what about the dice</b>
body:
what about the dice mat's always 'hearing' in his head maybe they are some sort of effect of the healing. because mat was changed after he was healed in two ways:<br />1) parts of his memory were missing<br />2) he could hear the dice in his head when his luck was running strongly.


created: 2002-04-28 03:21:26
subject: <b>Ter'angreal</b>
body:
You know how when Elayne and Co. are looking through the papers the Black Ajah stole from the Tower, there was that dice ter'angreal which makes dice roll the same, maybe it was snuck in in mat's belongings and some of its effects rubbed off on him.. I dunno, I just thought there must have been SOME reason why RJ mentions that particular ter'angreal and then jumps right into the chapter where Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />is REALLY lucky. BUt it's probably wrong, Just his ta'veren ness or something.


created: 2002-06-06 12:00:37
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
Well obviously Mat's luck stems from his being ta'veren. And before u cry, but Rand and Perrin aren't lucky! Each has their own individual quirks and personalities and their ability can't really be stereotyped.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Zenithstar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Zogone: one who complains</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 13:12:42
subject: <b>. . .</b>
body:
Shadar Logoth is still a possibility to where his like comes from.  Perhaps in Fain's case the dagger affects him differently.  But since he is the incarnate version of Shadar Logoth's evil he is almost super-human.  Or maybe the dagger is what gives him the sense to sniff out darkfriends.  Mat's luck being connected to the dagger is not a possibility to be ruled out yet, except for some viewings that Egwene had about Mat dicing with the Dark One.


created: 2002-06-13 05:30:36
subject: <b>The Ter'angreal</b>
body:
Matt DID come in contact with a ter'angreal in the shape of five dice while he was in the tower, shortly after being healed.  Perhaps he has always been lucky (as a ta'veren), but the super-strong luck that he sometimes has, like when he can feel the dice rolling in his head, is from that ter'angreal.  Maybe that ter'angreal doesn't just enhance a person's luck, maybe it was also meant to give them some ability to know when they were in danger.  Perhaps this helps a person &quot;create their own luck.&quot;  Just an idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 02:17:03
subject: <b>Mat and his luck</b>
body:
I think I might have something interesting to add. Only Mat is the lucky one. If it was the Ta&#8217;veren reason, then Perrin and Rand would be lucky to, and all of the previous ones would also have been. No, it&#8217;s not only that.<br /><br />I also agree with most of you, that his luck seems to have appeared just after he was Healed. Remember what Moiraine told us about Healing? It leaves a part of you in the Healed one. (Or something like that, I don&#8217;t have TEotW in English) <br /><br />Another thing, which I can quote, did I find in the Illustrated Guide, Chapter 24, The White Tower - Talents, (page 213): <br /><br />&#8220;Minor Talents are seldom given a name, such as the ability to see ta&#180;veren or to duplicate the chance-twisting effect of ta&#180;veren (though in a very small area rarely covering more than a few square feet).&#8221;<br /><br />In Jordan&#8217;s terms, it seems obvious, doesn&#8217;t it? Remember when the big wall fell down upon him? His luck couldn&#8217;t stop it from fall, because it was too far away, but he survived in a small pocket between some rocks. Remember when someone tried to kill him and steps on just the right, loud-sounding, part of the floor? Then Mat has just enough time to turn around and avoid the threat. That suggests that the man was pretty close to him. <br /><br />I&#8217;m sure you can find more evidence pointing in this direction. Why would Jordan put this Talent in the Guide? Not entirely sure, but he wouldn&#8217;t put it there without a reason, would he? I think this is all the proof we need.<br /><br />I would be happy if you commented.<br />


created: 2001-08-14 09:22:17
subject: <b>To add something...</b>
body:
...I didn&#180;t think about those three yet, but I&#180;m quite sure that either Elayne or Aviendha is Ilyena reborn. The point for Elayne is the similarity of the name, the two for Aviendha the fiery hair and the envy of Lanfear. And both are in love with and loved by Rand...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 09:53:11
subject: <b>What about Min?</b>
body:
I think that the post above mine has made a good point.  Though in Randland polygamy is rapant I think there is a significant reason why Min, Elyane, and Avin are drawn to Rand.  Consider this, they are not raised with the belief of polgamy as the Aiel, and I realize that the three are equally in love with him and each other that story is played out in real life, but that doesn't mean polgamy is the answer.  I think that maybe all three are lleyna reborn.  Maybe Min is the personality, because even Rand has said that he perfers the company of Min over the others because he is attracted to her personality.  Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I could die for you, but I couldn't and wouldn't live for you&quot;--Ayn Rand 'The Fountainhead'<br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Philosopher of the Ages <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of Time Wasting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> One Who Does Nothing At Work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 10:47:19
subject: <b>Not bad reasonning, good in fact...</b>
body:
But Elayne is Ilyena, that one is sure... &quot;that bolden-haired whore&quot; -Lanfear... Aviendha could be the last Aes Sedai, though...<br /><br />I'm just wondering if Jordan went as deep as that in his characters, or if it is just happenstance...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 15:46:14
subject: <b>I'm not buying it...</b>
body:
A physical resemblance and a similarity in temper do not prove anything.<br /><br />It is the soul which is being reborn, recall that LTT was quite different from Rand in both physical appearance and personality (the little we know of it).<br /><br />I like the Ilyena/Elayne theory, although we have no evidence for that except the name similarity and the fact that both love(d) the Dragon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 21:46:16
subject: <b>I know 2</b>
body:
I know 2, Elayne is Ilyena, and Egwene was that woman, who lead all the female Aes sedai in the Age of Legands to not help Lews Therin  and the hundred companions with his plan, this is from that short story &quot;the strike at Shayol Ghul&quot;, I can't remember her name, but I know she was also known as &quot;Shadow Cutter&quot; <br /><br /> I believe it is her, because Egwene is the leader of the female Aes Sedai in this age, plus she's had dreams of Rand building up a wall between her and himself and there is also the fact that she almost recognized what Mat was saying when he first shouted his favourite battle cry, &quot;Carai en Caldazar...&quot; Now none of this proves a thing I know, but I think we've addressed everything that isn't speculation.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-14 22:38:54
subject: <b>Elayne/Ilyena</b>
body:
Of course, Elayne was the first of the three that Rand fell for (he didn't even meet Aviendha until much later and didn't fall for her then, and Min he met first but didn't fall in love with her for awhile). Also, I think Lanfear would have been jealous of any of them that had had sex with Rand/LTT, Aviendha just happened to beat the other two to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 03:15:17
subject: <b>Aiel Prophesies</b>
body:
This theory is interesting, given that the Aiel appear to have prophecies concerning three Aes Sedai (Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve).  In TDR 'Threads in the Pattern' when the three meet Avienda's group of Maidens, Avienda mentions that they are looking for omens and signs of the coming of He wo Comes with the Dawn and asks what they are doing.  The whole group reacts very strangely when they say they are hunting darkfriends in Tear. <br /><br />'&quot;Shadowrunners in Tear,&quot; Bain said, and as if part of the same sentence Chiad added, &quot;And three Aes Sedai seeking the Heart of Stone.&quot;'<br /><br />That sounds like they are quoting something to me.  And later in the chapter Rhuarc also comments on it.<br /><br />&quot;Three Aes Sedai, traveling to Tear. And one of them carries a ring I have heard of as a boy.  Of all the strange sights I thought I might see when Melaine harried me hout of my own hold and over the Dragonwall, none has been so strange as this.  The path you set me is one I never though my feet would follow.&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-19 00:41:35
subject: <b>About physical similarities in the born and reborn . . .</b>
body:
Now in the theory it is surmised that since Solinde has sun-red hair AND Elayne has sun-red hair, this is verifiable evidence that they are the same person reborn.  Well, I&#8217;m sorry.  We don&#8217;t have any reason to believe that every time a person dies, their soul is reborn into a new body that greatly resembles their last.  <br /><br />Remember, that, - if we are going to roll with Greandal&#8217;s original premise (and indeed it looks like we are) - every person dies and is reborn countless times throughout the turning of the wheel.  Is it reasonable then, to expect that every soul will be reborn into a body that looks damn near the same every time?  <br /><br />No.  Infant we have powerful evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />Look, we KNOW that Rand al&#8217;Thor IS Lews Therin Tellamon reborn.  But they don&#8217;t resemble each other at all, except for the fact that they are both men of great height.  Lews Therin had dark eyes, Rand; grey.  Lews Therin had brown hair, Rand; red.<br /><br />Just because it&#8217;s mentioned that someone&#8217;s hair is roughly the same color as one of our main characters&#8217; this cannot be used in and of itself as proof they may be the same soul reborn.   <br /><br />Notice, that I have not attacked the resemblances in the personalities of Nynaeve and. Oselle.  Who knows if their personalities will be similar if they have the same soul, or if their personalities will be defined more by their own earthly experiences.<br /> <br />Anyway, I&#8217;m getting tired so I&#8217;ll kill this here.<br /><br />Comments, Rebuttals? <br /><br />The Great Lord on the Jon    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2001-08-20 23:29:23
subject: <b>Congrats</b>
body:
Nice work on an original theory<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> blade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> wearer of the wobbly boot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-09-02 22:15:28
subject: <b>I like it too..</b>
body:
Something to think about.  RJ's story line spends a lot of time with Rand/LTT ~ if that IS true, doesn't it make sense that the same &quot;hero's&quot; from the AoL will be present at TA?<br /><br />I LIKE IT!!  :-)


created: 2001-09-07 05:28:14
subject: <b>He isn't a god you know.</b>
body:
I love the books and congrats for an excellent first theory but have you ever considered the possibility that it is coincidence?  Now occaisionally in the books he writes saidin when he means saidar and visa versa.  There is only so much that he could possibly have considered and i believe that occaisionally we look into things too deep.  <br />  Of is reborn in different bodys but doesn't birgitte always have a long braid and use the bow.  Great theory bu at a guess it is nowt more than coincidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Warder to the Fantabulous Missa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Drinker of spirits <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Eternal watcher of the Damned <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Evil Git <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Chief of the movement for Narg Superiority <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-09 13:21:06
subject: <b>Agree with theory... maybe not selection?</b>
body:
I agree that it is likely that other Randland characters are reborn.  When dealing with Birgitte in TFoH, Nynaeve and Elayne learn from Birgitte that she and Gaidal are spun out again as they are needed, and that their valor and courage has bound them to the wheel.  The same logic would apply now:  If Tarmon Gai'don is coming, wouldn't the pattern weave out the required heroes from the past?  They would undoubtedly become impact players when things develop.  Thus, Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne have, like many other key characters, proven that they are impact players.<br /><br />It also boldters the theory that the three of them are able to do things that have not been done in a long time (even before being &quot;taught&quot; by &quot;others&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  In some ways, they, too, simply &quot;remember&quot; how to weave a certain flow and they cannot explain it.  In addition, Mat has obviously been reincarnated and so has Rand.<br /><br />So, I buy into the theory.  I am not sure who they previously were, though.  I have always thought about this theory, but I always assumed that Elayne was Ilyena: the letters in their names are nearly the same, they both had the hair, and they both were the love of the Dragon's life (granted Elayne is only about 1/3 of the loves of Rand's life, but still.)  Your theory is interesting...  I will certainly go back and reread the part where the three ancient Aes Sedai are discussed!<br /><br />It is fun to try to figure out if Jordan has given enough of the history to try to deduce who the characters were in past lives.


created: 2001-10-14 22:36:12
subject: <b>actually</b>
body:
Well I hate to bust your bubble but this isnt possible. 1) This isnt possible because if the wheel is to continue turning then the dark one has to be sealed completley not just a patch, but as though it never had happend so the dark one can be sealed by lews therin telamon and the cycle can go on and on like me (That Harid Fell dood,) so the famous trio couldnt be the old hags because they would have to go through at least two ages to get there and I dont believe that they can live that long post if u disagree!!


created: 2002-02-16 09:18:20
subject: <b>Not necessarily</b>
body:
Great theory, definitely original.  But I think I have to disagree, especially with some of the comments here on the blackboard.  In no way is it obvious that any of our heroes were reborn with the exception of Rand.  Now if we do assume that all souls are reborn then ok, but it is not necessary that all of our heroes now were ever heroes before.  My best piece of evidence for this is in 'The Great Hunt' Artur Hawkwing tells the sniffer (can't remember his name, and I'm at work so no books) that dependent upon his actions he may one day become tied to the Wheel and the Horn.  Also Hawkwing recognizes Rand as Lews Therin, but he says nothing to Mat but calls him Hornblower.  Now maybe Mat could have blown the Horn of Valere in the past but somehow I doubt that.  Well thats my two cents.<br /><br />Flame on,<br />Nimvin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-27 10:39:43
subject: <b>Impossible</b>
body:
Elayne could not be Solinda as she is Ileana Sunhair from the AOL. And I personally believe that Nynaeve is that famous AES Sedai from the Troloc Wars who Egwene talks about when she is reading the book woth all the stories of lovers in the Shadow Rising.


created: 2002-03-27 01:00:51
subject: <b>Similarities</b>
body:
First off I'd like to say that I really liked this post. Secondly, Birgitte once said that Gaidal was ugly each time that he was spun out. This infers that although they may not look exactly the same each time they are born out of the Wheel, there are still similarities each time. Thirdly...okay, one soul, one body. So Min, Aviendha, AND Elayne can't possibly all be Ilyena, unless I've totally missed something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Kyokki Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Warderless Green<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Pony of Peril <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 19:31:40
subject: <b>Some Late Commentary...</b>
body:
I can see that discussion of this died out months ago, but after reading this theory I think I have something to add...<br /><br />First, the &quot;Shadow Cutter&quot; referred to by Kidblondeel was Latra Posae Decume, or &quot;Shadar Nor.&quot; I myself have long thought that Egwene was Latra Posae reborn.<br /><br />Second, a piece of evidence in favor of Elayne being Ilyena reborn - flimsy and circumstantial though it may be - in TFOH when Rand has just learned that Rahvin has killed Morgase, he thinks &quot;Elayne, forgive me!&quot; and Lews Therin immediately echoes back, &quot;Ilyena, forgive me!&quot; Now, this could just be a case of LTT's thoughts being being triggered by current events, and he could well just be remembering Ilyena again instead of thinking of Elayne. However, subscibers to the Taimandred theory have always used as some of their evidence the times when LTT started ranting about Demandred because Rand has seen Taim - so I think if that's permissible evidence, then &quot;Ilyena, forgive me!&quot; is too.<br /><br />Third, that scene in TGH when Artur Hawkwing recognizes Rand as Lews Therin, but didn't recognize anybody else present. I think it may be possible that the Horn Heroes' prescripts may forbid Hawkwing's recognizing anybody, and he broke the rule with Rand, or perhaps something about the circumstances or Rand's being the Dragon make an exception to the prescript. That much is pure conjecture - but you notice that he immediately knew Hurin was NOT a Horn Hero - Mat and Perrin were standing right there and Hawkwing singled out Hurin alone as somebody not bound to the Horn.


created: 2002-09-10 19:39:56
subject: <b>all three are.............</b>
body:
i just thought of something that would be kinda cool, what if min elayne and aviendha(cant remember how to spell her name), are all three lews therins dead love reborn....... now that what be and interesting plot twist. i mean all three have a trait that is simillar to ilayna, they could be her split three ways<br />


created: 2002-11-11 22:42:39
subject: <b>Apperance...</b>
body:
I always thought that reincarnations within randland always kept some defining part of their personality or apperance ie rand and LTTs height, elaynes red gold hair, nyneave's annoying personality etc.... It seems to be linked with every reproduction of a soul within randland, having something similar attributed to all their different lives.


created: 2003-07-29 14:56:59
subject: <b>Alivia is a stronger channeler in this age</b>
body:
you may be right about the reborn part, but I think not about the three strongest channelers of this age.


created: 2008-03-28 12:29:41
subject: <b>i don't think so</b>
body:
given the material that you have shown us, i don't belive that those three are reborn from those aes sedai in the waste for one reason. people reborn don't look like who they once were. rand looks nothing like lews therin.


created: 2001-08-15 01:29:08
subject: <b>they'd have to have been channeling</b>
body:
Though it is a conceivable theory, I do have a couple rebuttles<br /><br />The ability to channel does not make you Susceptible to the whole turned to the shadow deal.<br /><br />Verin's explanation was that opening youself to saidar made you able to be opened to other things, so for the four kids to be turned to the shadow, they'd have to be able to channel, and be channeling before they could be turned.<br /><br />The Viewings are usually about important events when they are about one of the main characters, like Avienda, so I think It's going to be something interesting about the children rather than something bad.  Maybe They will all have some special ability like Mat and Perrin, other than being able to Channel.<br /><br />I don't know, I'm just trying to think up something good, because like the author of the theory, I don't really like the idea of the kids being born with disabilities, or being stillborn.<br /><br />Good theory however, I enjoyed it<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-15 01:44:35
subject: <b>Another Possibility</b>
body:
This theory mentions pugent square genetics, a biology theory that states that if both parents have the same trait the children will almost certainly have it.  The key word is almost.<br /><br />Perhaps the oddity from Avienda's children will be that although both parents are powerful channelers the children will not even be able sence the true source let alone learn to channel.  That would certainly be odd.<br />


created: 2001-08-15 01:47:22
subject: <b>Hanlon</b>
body:
Just curious, but I don't remember reading anywhere that she's going to let people think that her bodyguard is the father.  Where did you find this?


created: 2001-08-15 03:39:10
subject: <b>If I recall correctly...</b>
body:
Min says that they will be healthy, but that something's gonna be weird about them. This means that they won't be stillborn or deformed, or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 09:52:58
subject: <b>Two things</b>
body:
One, I don't really know what to make of that statement either about the oddness...I was thinking perhaps they'd be Heroes of the Horn, or perhaps siamese or something.  Who knows?<br /><br />Second, the squares you are referring to are called Punnet Squares, not Pungent squares...pungent means sharp or painful....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 11:42:01
subject: <b>Something Odd</b>
body:
I agree with Legolas.  I remember Min saying that they would be healthy.  Besides if they are around Rand at all they definitely won't be deformed.  His t'avereness would not allow it.  (When Rand is around no babies are born with defects--Min pointed this out in CoS to Moiraine's cousin).<br /><br />Maybe the something odd is how they are born.  Maybe Nynaeve has to perform a C-Section with the one power.  Who knows!  RAFO! RAFO! RAFO!<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 12:03:30
subject: <b>I think RJ has...</b>
body:
something special in reserve for this, but I don't think we have enough info to guess... So I won't risk myself. All we have is a line saying that they are odd. There are SO MANY ways a baby could be odd. Too bright, to tall, dark skin, larger eyes, white hair, name it, we just don't know.<br /><br />So stop guessing until we have more infos. We're bound to receive clues someday...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 12:30:40
subject: <b>Sorry Anake, I have to...</b>
body:
respond to this with my own guess.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, the passage says that Avi will have four children, &quot;there is something odd about THAT&quot;.  Implying not necessarily that the children are/will be odd, but that the very fact of her having four children is odd.<br /><br />Now this is not my theory alone, I've seen it floating around here before, but I really believe that the ODDNESS will come from the fact that Elayne &amp; Avi are now &quot;sisters&quot;, can both channel &amp; are both bonded to Rand that will cause some kind of weird Aiel/Channeler connection so that the four children Min sees might belong to Elayne, Min &amp; Avi.<br /><br />Just my thoughts... feel free to flame<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sorilea <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> The Wise Slutty One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Kindred Spirit to Jerranna <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud New Mommy to Jessica <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Dear Diary...Today my heart leaped when Agent Scully suggested Spontaneous Human Combustion.&quot; - Agent Mulder</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 03:37:51
subject: <b>Typical RJ teaser...</b>
body:
but you just have to have a go! I think a possibility is simply that they are all ta'veren - the pattern will probably be in a bad way after Tarmon Gaidon, and will need to fix the weave. Also the idea that they are all Heroes reborn is a good one. Another possibility - some of the major characters may die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> in the final battle, and be reborn afterwards, as Avi's kids. This could be a nice way to kill off major characters at the end, and still have them 'live happily ever after...'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 16:04:28
subject: <b>I have a theory...</b>
body:
...but I don't like it. It's distressing.<br /><br />Think about it, she get's 4 at once?! While it's possible, even in Randland it's unlikely that it happens often. Also, Min says there's something odd about her getting these 4 babes at once. Well what could be odd if they're also going to be fit and healthy?<br /><br />We know Elayne is going to have twins. We also know that Min can't view herself. It is my belief that Min will also have twins. However, tradgedy strikes, both Min and Elayne die at the same time, probably in the same incidence. Aviendha actually won't have any children of her own (that she gives birth to), but clearly she is the choice to adopt them.<br /><br />So you see it fits, she will get 4 children at once, but it's odd as in they are adopted and they are still fit and healthy.<br /><br />Of course, you have to ask yourself, would Jordan kill off Elayne and Min? He seems reluctant currently to kill off any main characters that we have any strong feelings towards, but it would certainly be interesting to see how Rand would cope, if his love of and bonding to Aviendha is enough to keep him alive. Then again this might be one of those story hooks that Jordan doesn't intend to let us in on as it will happen after the books have finished. Afterall in 9 books we have only covered 1 1/2 years, can he cover another 8 (?) months that would be required for layne to give birth in the next 3?


created: 2001-08-16 16:05:29
subject: <b>Sorilea has a good point...</b>
body:
but i was thinking that Elayne and Aviendha (i think i spelled that wrong sorry) are now first sisters by the Aiel &quot;ceremony&quot; in either PoD or WH, can't remember which off hand, so when/if they marry Rand will be Sister Wives, now i think somewhere it was written that children of Sister Wives are raised as full siblings, so Aviendha and Elayne may have two each, which would make them full siblings to the Aiel, which is what Avi is.  So that could possibly be the oddness in Avi's &quot;4&quot; children not wheat the same time part is a bit tricky here, so far she and Rand have only had one attempt shall we say at begatting progeny, and that far enough off that were she pregnant she would have birthed arlready, so we will just have to see what good ole' RJ has in store for our little love quadruplet. (well it can't rightly be called a triangle now can it?)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">boo's heart and soul <br /><br /><br />&quot;A few came close, but they ended up either having 3 nipples or an extra toe or some weird thing like that.&quot;<br />Wulf`gar<br /><br />February 22 ,2003 .. a day that will live on in infamy for years to come</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 19:42:51
subject: <b>So do you....</b>
body:
I forgot about the ids being raised as full siblings (or it just never registered) but that would mean that if Aviendha only had twins, she would still have four kids, albeit only two of them really hers (there's the &quot;odd&quot; part).  The only problem I see with that is that I'm not sure that Min's viewings would care much about Aiel culture, or customs.  That might mess everything up.<br /><br />O well.  Guess we'll just have to........<br />RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 13:50:45
subject: <b>The Genetics of Channeling</b>
body:
Channeling isnt at all Genetic. Some evidence can be put forward that way [ those two old Aes Sedai sisters, Aldeas and Vandele (sp?), Elaye and Morgase ] But there is also evidence against such a theory. niether Galad or Gawyn can channel, and they are Elayne's brothers. Mat cant channel, but his sister Bode can. Aviendha's sister cant channel, but she can. Thom's nephew could channel, but he never talks about any other memery of his family being Aes Sedai, or being hunted down and severed. <br /><br />Maybe there is some weird link to saidar and mother-to-daughter-channeling ( Elyane and Morgase, plus the Aes Sedai Twin Sisters ), but its probably very rare. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Knave   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-19 21:10:56
subject: <b>Of course it's genetic...</b>
body:
... think of the concentration of people able to channel in little old inbred Emond's Field.  And the Shara breeding program, as well.


created: 2001-08-20 07:04:08
subject: <b>Arthurian Parallels</b>
body:
I kinda like the idea of Avi's children being turned by the shadow, or going over to the shadow. Avi might be the mother from hell! The kids get so pissed off with her, and the fact that their father is away all the time, that they decide to take up evil. Satan worship among teenagers kinda parallel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But the reason I've brought this up is that in the legends of Arthur it's his two b*stard (sorry, this site wouldn't let me spell it properly!) sons that keep appearing and causing him trouble, but he won't do anything about them, because they're his sons. We know RJ's use of some of the Arthurian legends in this series, so maybe it'll pop up again here. Rand isn't married to Elayne, so they will be 'b*stard' kids technically. Maybe they'll be the ones that turn to the shadow. Rand is getting over his killing women paranoia, but will he be able to kill his own kids, even if they are dreadlords or something? The DO realises he's not going to be able to carry on sending women against Rand forever, so maybe he'll try out his own kids. It's a thought.<br /><br />But what I think is more likely is that Nynaeve will have to perform a OP C-section <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Complications in the birth of 4 kinda thing.


created: 2001-08-25 23:23:17
subject: <b>Kinslayer</b>
body:
I know this is kinda morbid, but remember, there are always parallels among the Ages.  I'm not saying I would like this to happen, or that it's even likely, but it's still a possibility.<br /><br />Suppose Rand goes mad (from the taint or the stress of his job, or whatever).  He's the most powerful channeler of the Age.  Is it not possible that in the process of &quot;Breaking the World again&quot;, he would again become the Kinslayer?  Killing everyone he loved and everyone who carried a drop of his blood?  This might even lead to nuking all the Aiel, since they all carry some of his blood.<br /><br />Now, the Prophecies of Rhuidean they said &quot;a remnamt of a remnant will survive&quot;.  I think it would be an interesting twist if Avi's kids were this remnant (assume there are four of them).<br /><br />Okay, that's my two cents.  I bet that's not what happens, but whatever.  This is what happens if you stay up too late and eat whole packs of nerds at 11:30 PM (heh).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 22:55:53
subject: <b>Why so negative?</b>
body:
Min saw something odd... why does it have to be sometihng so negative?  Why can't it be good things?<br />1. They could all channel and grow up to be legendary heroes.<br />2. They could all be exact carbon copies of Rand, Avi, Min, and Elayne<br /><br />Who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 23:57:34
subject: <b>It might have been pointed out already</b>
body:
But Min was already on birth control. In that same chapter where she mentioned Elayne getting preggers she was saying that she should have been drinking the same tea that Min used. Whether or not this tea compound is an effective contraceptive is completely speculative, it does however suggest that WoTville has some rudimentary concept of birth control.<br /><br />  By the way technically speaking Min can have viewings about herself, the only catch being that they can not be direct. Case in point when she first met Rand she saw a vision of Aviendha and Elayne sharing her love with him. That was a viewing of Rands future, however the fact that it included her made it a second hand viewing of her own destiny. So if she had a viewing of Rands children and saw some of them mothered by herself then it would be a veiwing of her and Rands collective destiny.<br /><br />  Too bad she can't have viewings of the past. FOr that matter has anyone thought that it's weird that Min NEVER EVER seems to have viewing of people betraying Rand? I mean she can tell right off the hook if someone will be loyal to him or if they will be necessary. Should they be sharpening a knife for his back she gets nothin. I know that it'd kill the plot if a traitor scenario were to go astray like that, but it seems weird that she doesn't ever spot the bad guys. I mean Osaginor (you'know what I mean) being in disguise as Damer FLinn should have hit all the big trigger switches right of the bat.<br /><br />   Wow here I am on the verge of giving my own theory, well I been out in Oregon for two weeks and I missed y'alls.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 00:45:03
subject: <b>COrrection</b>
body:
I should have said Dashiva when I said FLinn but you get the point right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 06:41:47
subject: <b>Rand's Football Team</b>
body:
Aviendha dies giving birth to all four children. The kids are all healthy, but she dies which is definitely odd.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Aimee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Money talks sense in a language all nations understand</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 23:16:20
subject: <b>Odd Babies=&gt;Dune</b>
body:
Two things occur to me. One, I don't think the thing about them being 1st sisters is what is odd...Min would have seen that in Elayne too, and also that's not odd, since its the usual thing for the 1st sister bonding process.  <br /><br />Second, I was considering other stories this issue may be connected to and examined the books where children were born to messiah figures. The biggest one came to mind, after too much deliberation: DUNE. And what happens to the children of Paul and Chani? It's been a while since I read the books, but I believe they were aware from an early age, if not conception itself. And Paul's sister has the same thing going on as a result of her mother taking the spice essence while she was pregnant. In WOT, perhaps something will happen with the children since they are the offsping of the Dragon.<br /><br />One possibility is that the bond will have something to do with it. If something were to happen to Rand while Avi was pregnant, it might be transmited through the bond and into the children. <br /><br />A final possibility is something that the wise ones said in WH, during the sister-ceremony. I don't have WH with me, so I can't remeber exactly what it was about, but one of them mentioned something about there being a risk is some weave touched the unborn children, as they are not ready. Perhaps during the course of Avi's pregancy she will be touched with some sort of weave that has an unusual affect on the children. Just a though.<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-15 00:50:15
subject: <b>more meanderings</b>
body:
I remember that Min said all the babies were healthy and fine, it was just something odd about Aviendha having 4 at once.  I think that something is going to happen to Elayne, in that Aviendha will raise Elayne's babies.  I think the oddness could be the appearance of the babies looking different because all 4 aren't Aviendha's.  I also was thinking of an earlier viewing by Min in GH, where she sees a red-hot iron and an axe over Elayne's head.  I may have missed something but I don't recall an axe coming into play with Elayne specifically yet...


created: 2001-10-03 10:13:46
subject: <b>Rand's Children</b>
body:
I think his kids with Aviendha will be the remnant of a remnant of the Aiel that the Wise Ones talk about.


created: 2002-01-12 08:30:38
subject: <b>All 4 have to be Aviendha's...</b>
body:
Couldn't find the quote of Min's, but it seems she says (from the original theory) &quot;4 at once&quot;. This may happen if her and Elayne have 2 each at the same time and one dies but I don't think the timing is right for that to happen. So they all have to be from Aviendha. Maybe the something odd is that they all can channel very strongly? I don't recall hearing what happened if a man and a woman who could both channel have kids, but here we have not only that but also a bonded man and woman. Somewhere was mentioned that bonding didn't happen when both men and women could safely channel, so it probably hasn't been tried yet. Here we have 4 kids from two very strong channellers, and another strong channeller in the bond, one person who can see aura's and a hero from the age of Legends. Anything could happen! Maybe in this case they all start channelling very soon, or grow up faster than normal in time to fight for daddy in the Last Battle? They might permanently be able to sense all the people in the bond and aid them and eachother? Maybe they can all channel using the power of everyone who can channel in that link (i.e. all 4 of them, Rand, Elayne and Aviendha). Maybe Aviendha was pregnant when she became a sister wife and her kids did survive it and are now even stronger etc.? If anyone read Julian May, I think it was, he had a guy who was born to (I've been reading too much SF/Fantasy lately, sorry if this gets muddled) a family of people with great scientific capabilities (computers etc.) and he managed to get out of being killed at about age 2 (right before he managed to live without a body). And we can even look to Harry Potter (it was cute reading, Jordan still rules though, don't worry) when he was a baby he miraculously survived something that killed both his (very strong) magical parents? Oh well, just my ideas.


created: 2002-01-25 03:16:21
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
You hear how twins can have a sense of each other - finishing each other's sentances, etc; maybe Avienda's children will have something like this but stronger, all will have the same thoughts like they are one person instead of 4


created: 2002-02-19 11:12:45
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I think that it means that they are diffferently powerful. A new way of using the Power? A new kind of gift (like Perrin's wolfiness and Min's second sight)?<br />Your scenarios are all sad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 00:52:16
subject: <b>I was thinking about the kinslayer scenerio too....</b>
body:
but I HOPE that's not how it turns out! <br />As for channeling and the genetics of it, there seems to be some evidence that it IS genetic(the sharan &quot;breeding program&quot; etc) and some that it ISN'T, Perhaps RJ will clear that up for us mere mortals before the end of the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 18:41:46
subject: <b>The Oddness</b>
body:
Well as I have been re-reading the WoT for the Nth time...I came across a very intriguing insight I don't believe I have seen on here yet.  (Feel free to let me know if I'm wrong and it has been posted):<br />     In WH when Elayne and Avi are becoming 'first sisters', Elayne wonders why Melaine isn't there.  Monaelle says &quot;Were melaine here the babes she carries would be part of the bond between you, and Aviendha, if the weaves brushed them.  If they survived that is; the unborn are not strong enough for this.&quot;  (Page 48 WH)  So what does happen to unborn children involved in this...and is Aviendha already pregnant at this time?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-13 18:47:50
subject: <b>shrug</b>
body:
Some of those are impossible.  She ALSO says in about the same spot that the children would all be healthy and strong, BUT something odd.  this could be the ability to channel itself (since nobody knows anything about whether chennelling is recessive when BOTH parents are so strong...  remember, that could be the reason for the abundance of strong channellers in the AoL...one of them anyway...).  After that, the part about them going over to the shadow is plausible, since that WOULD be quite odd, as their parents are stalwarts against it.  It could also weaken Rand before TG.


created: 2002-03-15 09:35:52
subject: <b>explaining the odd thing in min's viewing</b>
body:
Avienda children might not be by Rand.  she could either get drunk and have an accident or be raped.<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-03 04:56:59
subject: <b>Relation to the Profecy of Rhuidean</b>
body:
The profecy of Rhuidean states something like 'Only a remnant of a remnant will survive', when it describes how the Aiel will enter the new age that Rand's breaking will bring. If Rand, the Car'acan, will destroy the Aiel and leave only a remnant of a remanent after the last battle, then it makes sense that the only surviving Aiel after the last battle will be Rand's children. When Aviendha has Rand's children, they will be three-quarters Aiel. I think this will be our remnant of a remnant. If Aviendha's children die, which is very likely after Min's viewing, then Elayne's and Min's children will still be of Aiel blood, although only one-quarter Aiel. This would explain a great deal about the Profecy of Rhuidean, which i believe doesnt get as much attention as it deserves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 18:54:40
subject: <b>Remnant of a Remnant</b>
body:
I think that Elayne's children or Min's will be the remnant. In order to be a &quot;Remnant of a Remnant&quot; they cannot be of Aiel blood. or one fourth if you want to put it that way. Rand is half right? well his children would be full aiel if they were Avi's kids, right. 3/4 or something. but they wouldn't be a remnant of a remnant. the ones to survive will be Elaynes or Min's kids.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 14:11:31
subject: <b>what's odd??</b>
body:
Ok, there is &quot;SOMETHING&quot; odd about &quot;that&quot;. There have been many people of the opinion that the birth of quadruplets itself is the oddity, but that would have been a subjective feeling of Min, not connected with the viewing itself but with the realization that Avi will give birth to four children at once (which admittedly is very rare and therefor odd), a second-hand oddity, so to say, and it would have been phrased in a manner making clear that &quot;this&quot; is odd. But Min sees &quot;SOMETHING&quot; odd &quot;about&quot; it in the viewing itself, i. e. a first-hand oddity, which is not clear to her. <br /><br />All the theories about deformities, stillborn, siamese etc. are not viable, because it is clearly stated that all of them are perfectly healthy. <br /><br />The turning to the shadow theory is also not viable, because this would be an event taking place clearly sometime AFTER they are born (at lest a couple of years, to be able to distinguish the one side from the other)<br /><br />All the other theories, including not all of the four being born by Aviendha herself (for whichever reason),  or -which I prefer much- all of them being born with extraordinary abilities besides channelling - or the lack of channeling ability which would be expected given the parents, are perfectly good speculations. It also might be that three of them will be as expected, but the forth will somehow differ in an unexpected way.


created: 2002-10-31 17:45:11
subject: <b>uh</b>
body:
Didn't Min say that Aviendah's babies would all be healthy?<br />That kind of negates the whole illness, deformity, stillborn thing. Plus I would hope they wouldn't go to the Shadow but anythings possible especially in Randland.


created: 2002-11-28 06:49:17
subject: <b>Nope...Youre Wrong</b>
body:
Min's viewing is clear - the babies would be healthy, but still odd.<br /><br />I'd like to believe they will be tied in with winning the last battle<br /><br />ie. &quot;His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul&quot;<br /><br />Aren't Rands children his &quot;blood&quot;?<br /><br />How cool would that be...looking forward to it!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-29 13:49:00
subject: <b>i think....</b>
body:
... they'll be maternal quadruplets.<br /><br />i'm not sure if that is the right word - you know when twins have the same mother but not the same dad, they're maternal twins, aren't they?<br /><br />what if avi gets raped, or, finds someone cuter than Rand?<br /><br />maybe they could ALL have different dads!


created: 2003-02-22 14:33:32
subject: <b>Well 1 doesn't work</b>
body:
They can't be still born or Retarded cause it says they will be healthy but something will be odd about them.


created: 2003-06-13 15:46:51
subject: <b>erm...</b>
body:
Ok, the thought of them being born stillborn or retarded is unlikely. Even if it wasn't for the being born healthy thing, it doesn't sound like something RJ would put in the bookseries. Same with the rape theory. The thought of the kids turning to the shadow is a little more likely, but not much. The best bet so far is that they will have extra powers in addition to channeling. It makes more sense, with all the old powers coming back. Think about it, is there any old powers that have not yet come back? Perrin is the wolfbrother, what else is there? Maybe one of them will be able to fly, the old Aes Sedai trick that's died out. I guess we really don't have enough hints to go by yet. Maybe in the next book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Spinner <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Spin nightmares out of shadows<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 01:09:51
subject: <b>The exact quote was</b>
body:
&quot;Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too.  Four of them at once!&quot;<br />So they WILL be Rand's children, and in the context of the discussion (pregnancy and having kids), it seems like Aviendha will conceive, bear and give birth to quadruplets, who will be healthy.  Elayne says in CoT that neither woman was pregnant when they were made sisters, and enough time has passed (more than twenty days from Elayne's pregnancy to the cleansing, plus Rand's recuperation time, plus the time needed for Bashere and co. to find the Seanchan, negotiate and return) that Aviendha could not have kids that close to Elayne's due date for their children to be mixed up in a viewing that says '4 at once.'  Aviendha is the biggest and strongest of Rand's paramours, with a figure well-suited for mother hood according to Fires of Heaven (Sorilea- &quot;...those hips were meant for babes...&quot; Kadere- &quot;...full-breasted compared to most...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> so it is not inconceivable, especially with the level of pre-natal care Aiel have access to, that she could carry four healthy children to term.  Sometimes Jordan says exactly what he means, people.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-04 22:06:18
subject: <b>Yes, but what about their health?</b>
body:
Your first 2 theories about Aviendha's quadruplets might make sense, but Min sees in her vision that the babies will be healthy.  This indicates that they won't be stillborn or have some sort of defect.


created: 2003-11-05 19:57:49
subject: <b>Talents</b>
body:
Someone has probably already said this but...the odd thing about Avi's babies will be that they ALL have lost Talents. It makes sense. Healthy but odd...it could work.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits<br />The fires of his anger<br />Burning bright in the night<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 18:23:04
subject: <b>Four at once.</b>
body:
I was just thinking about this as I was rereading WH.  What if Avi doesn't have the 4 at once until they are all older?  Perhaps they decide to become first-brothers and sisters, and Avi steps in as the &quot;mother&quot; of all of them,  a la Amys during Elayne's and Avi's First-sister ceremony.  She says &quot;this is my daughter Aviendha, and this is my daughter Elayne, born on the same day, in the same hour.&quot;  She then calls them both her &quot;new daughters.&quot;  That could be odd, &quot;becoming&quot; a mother to 4 people with different mothers.<br /><br />Just a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;How do you know you're having fun if there's no one around watching you have it?&quot; - Zaphod Beeblebrox, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-23 00:03:48
subject: <b>Yes, but</b>
body:
In Min's viewing she staes that Avi would have RAND's babies, menaing that unless Min and Elayne's children decide to become first-sisters with Avi as their &quot;mother&quot;, this isn't likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;No one tells us how to be men. We just are&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Perhaps that is why you make such a bad job of it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Let the Dragon ride again upon the winds of Time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-29 02:04:21
subject: <b>Three Theories</b>
body:
First of all... it seems pretty clear to me that no matter how genius Jordan is, he didn't have everything planned out from the start, and very likely still doesn't.  Just like a good TV Series writer, he pumps out stuff he knows and throws in a whole bunch of loose ends - not so he can tie them up at the end, but so he can choose to develop on them later (and therefore may also choose not to).<br /><br />Chances are then, that we might not ever find out what happens to his kids - perhaps Jordan will decide to leave those to his protege, allowing a second series of Wheel of Time books.  In any case, I think it's safe to say Jordan has no idea what's strange about the kids yet.<br /><br />That said, here are the three theories I think most likely (please note, I'm half-way through book 11, so might not have the same full picture you guys have yet):<br />1) Due to Elayne and Aviendha's weird sister thing, by impregnating Elayne and giving her twins, Rand has also given Aviendha twins... a double oddity comes out of this, one is the fact that he didn't sleep with Aviendha but still got her pregnant (but that's more of an oddity for Avi), and most importantly - the kids share the exact same DNA they receive from Rand, but differing DNA from the two mothers... so they are 'half-twins' of a sort.  This would also explain why Aviendha has 4 kids AND how they are born at the same time, even though she only has twins.<br /><br />2) There's an additional kind of magic source that the dark one uses.  I can't remember the name (is it 'the true source' whereas Aes Sedai and Asha'man use 'the one power'??).  Due to Rand's great strength in the power and Avi also using the power, their children are somehow born with the ability to tap into that other source, giving them access to the same power as the 'Gods'.<br /><br />3) Jordan wakes up one day and thinks to himself, damn it, people have thought up every idea possible... what's something completely ridiculous that they haven't guessed yet... And then he does some weird sci-fi thing, like making them the next step in the evolution process - some kind of super-alien, oddly shaped, but 20x stronger, faster and more intelligent than normal humans?<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-14 23:30:54
subject: <b>Sorry....</b>
body:
One part of your theory, at least, was wrong. In the B&amp;N (maybe CNN, but I think it was B&amp;N) interview (you can read it under &quot;articles&quot; ), RJ DEFINETLY says that Sammael WAS killed by Mashadar. However, there's nothing to say he hasn't come back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-15 00:28:02
subject: <b>just one thing...</b>
body:
most likely it was moridin.  we know that this all occured in Fal Dara.  It is impossible to channel there without the use of a well, or in this case, the true power.  the true power is alot different than the one power.  it is more than likely possible to channel the TP inside FD.  as we all know, moridin is the only one with access.  so like i said, its gotta be him.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 01:38:20
subject: <b>You gotta wonder though...</b>
body:
You have to wonder whether or not the Dark One can bring Sammael back.  We know that he can't if balefire is involved, but maybe he can't with sammael, because his soul was swallowed by a rival evil.<br /><br />I wonder if it takes a certain amount of time before the Dark One can bring someone back, because it took aran'gar, and Osan'gar, something like 4 books in between before they came back, and Ishmaul I think 3.<br /><br />Asmodean was fried in book 5, so if it takes a while, and I know Robert Jordan said something about him being toast, or roadkill, but maybe someone can fill me in and tell me if he said that he was never coming back, because book 10 might be the right time limit.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-15 03:32:33
subject: <b>RJ said Sammael was toast, not Asmodean</b>
body:
and btw, in one of the posts above, it should be Far Madding instead of Fal Dara of course...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 03:53:16
subject: <b>sammael is toast</b>
body:
Or so said RJ.<br />He was doing his own thing all along, and I think he failed the Dark One (trying, in fact, to kill rand, apart from naming himself Nae'blis), so hopefully he will not be reincarnated. I am going to go very crazy indeed if Sammael, too, comes back from the dead.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 08:56:29
subject: <b>must we waste our time reading this stuff</b>
body:
How about not printing Theorys that everyone knows aren`t true .....silly idea i know but they don`t keep theorys that have been proved wrong in school books and the like .......SORT IT OUT !!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> follower of The Church Of The Probable Opinions&#169; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> marked with the dreaded LVIII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> smoker of the big choo choo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> bearer of the monolith <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> died from the shock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> 4th Letter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 12:10:47
subject: <b>Grumble</b>
body:
What kind of bull goose fool, mule headed theorizers still think Sammy is coming back?  Why if I had my way....&lt;rambles off into unintelligible grumblings&gt; ... wasting my time reading &lt;more grumbling&gt;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 13:45:22
subject: <b>Plus, totally out of character</b>
body:
Even if Sammael did live, using slayer would be totally out of character for him.  He's one of the guys that gets a base of power and then strikes, like he did with Illian, not a guy who hides in the shadows using assasins, like Graendal or Moggy.<br />


created: 2001-08-15 15:08:48
subject: <b>Overenthusiastic Memes</b>
body:
Has anybody actually seen a direct reference to RJ saying &quot;Sammael = roadkill&quot;?  When I first heard the quote (third-hand), I thought it was the same old &quot;Asmodean = roadkill&quot; comment that is well-established, except that someone mistyped the name.  Every other time I have seen the quote online, it is also either second-, third-, or fourth-hand.  I'm not entirely convinced as to its authenticity.<br /><br />Can anybody prove me wrong?  I hope not, that was too lame of a way to go, even for Sammael


created: 2001-08-15 23:56:59
subject: <b>Aside from RJ PoD says that Sammael is dead.</b>
body:
First I did read in an interview where RJ did say that Sammael was toast.  However, there is also a passage in PoD that very strongly indicates that Sammael is dead.<br /><br />In thinking about <i>sha'rah</i> Moridin acknowledges that only nine living people recognize the game (a very popular game in the AoL).  Who are they:<br /><br />Moridin = Ishamael   1<br />Demandred            2<br />Graendal             3<br />Semirhage            4<br />Mesaana              5<br />Moghedien            6<br />Osan'gar = Aginor    7<br />Aran'gar =Balthamel  8<br />Cyndane = Lanfear    9<br /><br />Since Moridin is Nae'blis he would know if the DO brought Sammael back to life.


created: 2001-08-16 11:49:20
subject: <b>DaBuilder made a very good point.</b>
body:
If assasination attempt was in Far Madding then whoever ordered Slayer should not be able to channel the gateway.  This suggests Moridin did it with the true power.  On the other hand, we know nothing about how the Guardian works.  Maybe it doesn't affect T'A'R there.  (Or maybe R.J. flubbed.  It happens.) <br /><br />I don't think it was Moridin, though, because Moridin seems to want Rand alive.  (Unless he is trying to pull one over the DO here, which is always possible.)  I think it is one of the Forsaken (the chapter has a forsaken icon for one).  I think that it is either Demandred (for his thoughts that something had to be done about Moridin to ensure that next time he doesn't get reincarnated) or Halima (because she or Moridin) is having Slayer spy on Egwene in T'A'R.  You can tell that because Slayer let himself be seen to distract the ladies from figuring out that Halima was not helping with the headaches.  Only Halima or Moridin would let slayer know to protect Halima that way.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 16:16:07
subject: <b>Madman</b>
body:
Nynaeve MUST DIE!!!  I can handle Faile, and Elayne, merely irritating, but Nynaeve ...  <br /><br />(Roaring suddenly)  Death!  Slow, painful, agonizing DEATH!!!  Balefire's too good for her!  Roasting over an open flame!  Her stupid braid on fire.  Roasting!  Until she dies!  DIES!!!  <br /><br />(Painting wildly) Lan deserves better!  Anyone else!  Would be better!  Anyone else!  So annoying!  The sniffing!  The bullying!  The controlling!  Making me insane!  INSANE!!!  (Deranged giggling insues)<br /><br />Kill her!  Yes!  I MUST KILL HER!!!  It will be worth it!  Whatever Lan does to me!  WORTH IT!!!  As long as she dies!  DIES!!! (Gropes wildly for the Source)<br /><br />(Remembers there is no Source - but gropes anyway)<br /><br />(The air begins to shimmer, to gather heat.  Turns to liquid flame) <br /><br />(The room is on fire, but still he laughs, tears sizzling down his cheeks)<br /><br />(Suddenly, the cat bursts into flame.  Screaching fuzz ball on fire!)<br /><br />Kitty, no!!!  NO!!!  Oh, Light.  What have I done!  Oh Light forgive me!  Kitty, FORGIVE ME!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />(But Kitty is a crispy critter.  Slowly, he succumbs to the full wracking sobs of man who has nothing left to live for)<br /><br />(The building begins to burn down around his ears.  He barely notices)<br /><br />(And then the weeping cuts off as if it had never been)  Nynaeve!  You are responsible for this!!!  The death of Kitty is on your head.  You will pay for what you have done!  Oh yes, you will pay.  It's never over Al' Nynaeve!  IT'S NEVER OVER!  HaHaHaHaHa(snort)HaHa!<br />


created: 2001-08-20 17:27:32
subject: <b>I'll try to point my question relevant</b>
body:
Unlike some people... I think this theory dismisses Damandred too easily. He is nothing like Osan'gar and has none of the privileges that Moridin has. Furthermore, he has ordered others to kill Al'Thor before, only the renegade Asha'man have no sturdy connection to other  Forsaken. We can't assume that Damandred and Moridin know they have given Kisman the same orders, and Damandred would be keeping his head down if he were giving such an order to anyone with more direct connection to the Friends of the Dark network. Slayer is almost chosen himself, where Kisman and Co. are glorified darkfriends (and that's all they are). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-22 21:10:12
subject: <b>Not quite good enough</b>
body:
This theory dismisses Osan'gar and Demandred waaay too quickly.  There's not nearly enough evidence given here to rule them out.  <br />If people want proof that Sammy's still alive and kicking, look at the way Jordan phrased the thing back in ACoS.  &quot;He *had* to be dead,&quot; or words to that effect.  Now, in my experience whenever someone thinks that it's inevitably proven false, but perhaps Jordan has decided to buck the trend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 05:58:13
subject: <b>OK DaBuilder</b>
body:
I agree that it was Moridin but........<br />TAR isn't nothin to do with the power! AND Slayer does not need the power to enter TAR(remember those fights with Perrin......)!<br />and this whole Sammael Alive thing is as dead as the Taimandred debate.       Just give up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 00:17:16
subject: <b>Well you forgot one man</b>
body:
Halima/Arangar might just count. If They were meeting in T'A'R then she might still see her/himself as Balthalmel. If she was weaving a mask of mirrors to make her identity vague (recall that Slayer was thinking about his eyes slipping off the person and that the voice was too vauge) would it not make sense to change her gender as well? <br /><br />   As far as I have seen nothing suggest that Slayer could diffrentiate between Saidin and Saidar so if Arangar made herslef look like a man then he'd naturally assume that the person was channeling Saidin. If he does have a hidden ability to tell the difference then he'd know she was using the male half. SO for Arangar to not disguise her womanity would be a dead give away wouldn't it? Just a wicked lil thought from a guy that has missed this swnk palace of thought.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 11:45:06
subject: <b>one more point</b>
body:
	In Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time when profiling the Forsaken their current status is shown and on Sammel's, instead of putting killed by so and so at yadyadayad Like with Ravin, Be'lal and the other dead forsaken Robert Jordan put &quot;status unkown.&quot;  We also know that when using the True power you do not need to weave a gateway and it cant be sensed by other channelers.  At some point one of the Forsaken states that the true power may only be use in great need and I think that Sammel's position would qualify.  As far as Robert Jordan stating that sammel is dead repetivly, well, any thing he continuously states cannot be done, is done.


created: 2001-09-11 07:54:18
subject: <b>sammael is dead</b>
body:
First, Jordan has said that Sammael is dead. He is dead.<br />Second, you say: &quot;...Sammael saw Rand shoot that balefire, and immediately threw himself of the ground. He throws up a shield around himself and maybe makes himself invisible, ...&quot;<br />As I understood it, balefire is as fast as Light; there is no way to &quot;get out of the way&quot; from balefire.<br />Also, there is no shield that can stand balefire, atleast was that what I understood from the last chapter in TPoD.<br />And, if Sammael had made himself invisible, Rand would have felt it.<br /><br />Please excuse my poor english.<br /><br />Jeromi


created: 2001-11-07 13:29:10
subject: <b>its been a while but...</b>
body:
boy do i ever need to reread....<br /><br /><br />ok.  if halima can disguise her/his femininity, so can the other females.<br /><br />Sammael had better be dead.  HE'D BETTER<br /><br /><br />And what was with the mad anti-nyn post?  you're in the wrong thread.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 06:38:07
subject: <b>Marcus</b>
body:
This is the second time i have posted about this but here we go again...<br /><br />Robert jordan said it in an interview, Sammael is dead and won&#180;t come back. Here&#180;s the link:<br /><br />http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html


created: 2002-08-05 21:28:18
subject: <b>RJ stuffed up?</b>
body:
Sammael has to be dead 'cause in Book 10 when all the Chosen attacked Rand (as they were ordered to by the Dark One), Sammy was not one of them. But RJ did make his death just a little too ambigious for me. Also, it bugs me when we have to rely on things said in interviews with RJ, it sort of takes the point out of carefully reading the books, doesn't it? If RJ wanted Sammy to be definately dead, he should have really killed him in the books. I think RJ wanted to leave Sammy for a come back, then changed his mind and decided the books were too long anyway, and tried to cover the mistake by syaing Sammy is dead in interviews. Plus, why doesn't the DO reincarnate all Dark Ajah and other Darkfriends, and why didn't he chose more of his Dark Aes Sedi from the AoL to survive until the current age? He could certainly use all the help he could get, and isn't he meant to have god like powers? Don't tell me he can only reincarnate a person per year, and he could only chose 13 chosen (or whatever).


created: 2005-04-21 09:20:53
subject: <b>'f c'rse</b>
body:
how long have slayer been on fains tail? if moridin as ishmael wanted slayer to assasinate fain, and fain is still alive, wouldn't the order still be effective?<br /><br />And who says the chosen needs to deliver orders directly? Even if it is Slayer..


created: 2005-09-08 10:38:44
subject: <b>I disagree about him being slayer's patron</b>
body:
That's just because judging by Sammael's character so far I can't see him using an assassin to kill Rand.  I would have thought he'd want to do it himself.


created: 2007-06-11 21:46:48
subject: <b>To Adrian</b>
body:
I kind of agree with you, maybe RJ didn't do that much of a good job, atleast he failed to make the Forsaken look fearful, they kind of suck actually.


created: 2001-08-16 15:46:48
subject: <b>Great theory... one question</b>
body:
How did you ever come to this idea?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 20:57:34
subject: <b>How I came to the idea...</b>
body:
Hm. I guess that means you don't believe in it for a second. Personally I think it's pretty strong (although the general Wotmaniac seem to disagree with me).<br /><br />Anyway, while I would really like to say that I immediately spotted it, I didn't. I did see the most obvious comments indicating Zaida is in fact a channeler disguising her abilities, but despite that I didn't actually take the step to seeing it as a theory unil someone else noted the same. <br /><br />After checking back, I have had more and more problems in believing Zaida is NOT Mesaana, since I think the evidence is strong in favour of that theory. Ah well. We'll just see when the next book comes out. I'll just have to prepare myself to the great disappointment if it turns out I was wrong...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 22:42:10
subject:
<b>No, I do believe it, it's actually quite brilliant, it's just that I would never have thought of it myself...</b>

body:
*NM*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 23:48:03
subject: <b>Hmmm, not totally convinced....but...</b>
body:
Didn't Moggy teach Elayne and Nynaeve the trick of disguising ones ability to channel when she was a prisoner? Therefore they should be able to tell if someone who can channel is using this trick.<br /><br />Just a thought


created: 2001-08-17 00:08:09
subject: <b>Regarding &quot;disguising channeling&quot; trick</b>
body:
If it took active channeling to do it, the trick would simply be totally useless because it would never work against a channeler (and we know it has, for example when Alviarin meets Mesaana). Nothing indicates knowing how to do it would equate seeing when it's done. In fact, if it was like that, it's doubtful the Forsaken would EVER dare use it, since it would be almost impossible to explain away after they would have been caught. I am not sure Moghedien taught it either (I can only recall her teaching the physical disguise), but it's not really relevant.<br /><br />There COULD be some sort of trick (or test using the OP) that could be used to see through a disguise of channeling ability. We have never heard of such a test or trick, and never heard of the girls learning one from Moghedien, but IF it existed, it would probably be a bit like the test of potential the Aes Sedai use. It would mean though that Nynaeve would have to actively test someone she suspected, and she never seems to suspect anyone, so the odds are, she would never use such a trick even if she knew it.<br /><br />Looking at the stats, you are far from alone in not being fully convinced by Mesaana=Zaida. No strong counter-evidence as yet though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 03:28:08
subject: <b>Excellent Theory!!! But...</b>
body:
You put this theory together very well, and there is obviously something up with Zaida, but I don't think that's it. I think there have been too many references to Mesaana being in the Tower for her to turn up elsewhere - like RJ has gone too far down that road for it to be a red herring. If you had a clue that linked Zaida with the Tower, that would give your theory a lot of weight (and it may happen next book), but that to me seems a very weak point. Your arguments certainly point to Zaida being able to channel (or perhaps having once been able to channel), and this makes her a candidate for Mesaana as Nyn etc can't detect her ability, but it's still a big jump from there to Mesaana. So, yes, she's a candidate, but not the favourite. Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 05:57:02
subject: <b>No she is Danelle</b>
body:
Remember back in the shadow rising when he young accepted Danelle is sent away by Suian sanche and later we see her 'killed'?? How then is she in with the Rebel Aes Sedai??Because Messana killed her and took her place.


created: 2001-08-17 06:22:06
subject: <b>Mesaana is not with the rebels but...</b>
body:
I don&#180;t think Mesaana is with the rebels for two strong reasons: 1. She&#180;s seen with Alviarin too often. 2. Asan&#180;gar is with the rebels. But I don&#180;t think either that she&#180;s jumping between the Tower and the Sea Folk. I think the Forsaken with the Sea Folk is Demandred since he is the only one who is not surely located yet. Which would end the Taimandred debate forever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />. Why is it unlikely that Demandred is with the Asha&#180;man? Well, Osan&#180;gar is (or was until the end of WH), and why should two Forsaken be in the same place (same as the AS groups)? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 08:44:07
subject: <b>Questions and answers</b>
body:
Although I have been working with this theory, I would be happy to change it if something better comes up or ditch it completely. I would need reasons though...<br /><br />Starglider: Exactly who do you mean is a better candidate for Mesaana than Zaida? I have only seen one theory (that seemed serious), Danelle, and frankly, that one is weak at best. It's actually only based on her general strange behaviour, without any physical evidence at all connecting her to Mesaana. Despite the very few things written about Danelle, she is not easier to incorporate in a &quot;from-the-Bore&quot; story than Zaida, but rather harder.<br /><br />Funkyfresh311: Danelle was not killed in tSr. We have never seen her as anything else than a young Brown and she has spent all that time in the Tower. If tSr had been the time Mesaana took Danelle's identity, a year had gone since the release from the Bore, so the problem of the timeline would strike again.<br /><br />Llaydwhonn Gaidin: There are currently no one with the Sea Folk who are even a candidate for Demandred and it would surprise me if RJ hasn't given us at least a hint by now. The reason Demandred has been linked to the Ashaman are several, but as of late mostly Kisman's comments in WH, Ch 22. It's apparent in that blurb that Demandred has SOMETHING to do with the Ashaman, whatever it is.  Of course, the general theory now is that while he is stationed with some organization, he also uses several proxies in other places of Randland. My own theory on Demandred's whereabouts though, is that he is the right-hand man to the Prophet (currently meeting Perrin and his bunch), and in fact has been behind the Prophet's rising from the beginning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 10:57:19
subject: <b>To funkyfresh311:</b>
body:
The person who you were thinking of was Sahra Covenry, the novice outside Siuan's study when Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw showed up.  She went gaga over Galad, but she was still dismissed because she knew Min was there....<br /><br />She was later killed by someone, who also killed her taskmistress.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 16:17:51
subject: <b>Why Mesaana was in the Tower before Ishamael left</b>
body:
While this may not disprove the theory entirely, Mesaana was moving events in the Tower before Ishamael's death.  At one point one of the Forsaken was musing (can't remember where or when) and thought about how Mesaana was so proud of her plot with Be'lal and certain it would succeed.<br /><br />Be'lal's plot was to force Rand to come to Tear and slay him for Callandor.  So what part did Mesaana play?  Liandrin and co. never seem to think of having met her at the Stone but knew all about Be'lal.  Mesaana must have participated in the plot by providing the bait Be'lal planned to use (though it turned out to be useless) of Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve.<br /><br />Likely Mesaana gave the orders to Alviarin to have the group flee to Tear and then had the Black Ajah's fake leavings left behind to draw them on.  I can't think of who else would give the orders.  Lanfear was in the Tower at one point but she wouldn't want to have Rand fall into Be'lal's trap and so far she seems to despise the Black Ajah and never uses them.  Ishamael just wanted Rand dead at this point and wasn't in league with Be'lal.  I think he was too busy hunting Rand to bother.  Graendal was said to have gone to the Tower but she was just likely checking on things and there is no evidence that she did anything outside Arad Domon.  Be'lal visited Alviarin once in her dreams but this was likely just to reinforce what had to be done.<br /><br />Wow, that looks like a theory.  This doesn't discount Mesaana as Zaida, but shows she was involved in the Tower.


created: 2001-08-18 01:58:37
subject: <b>Interesting Theory</b>
body:
I agree that Zaida is more than she appears but maybe she is someone else. You say she is short, isn't Cyndane short, maybe she is Cyndane. I am not positive if Cyndane is short that is just from my memory so you'd have to check but I think it would be too hard to juggle the White Tower and the Atha'an Miere, so I don't see Mesaana as Zaida.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-18 09:02:43
subject: <b>Why not Cyndane?</b>
body:
I didn't spend any time in the Theory on possible other Forsaken, and the reason is that it's pretty easy to make them improbable by just a few strokes of the pencil. Graendal is actually the best alternative, and she's not good.<br /><br />Regarding Cyndane, many of the advantages we get from the Mezaida theory disappear immediately. We still have to fully locate Mesaana and also still have to explain why no one was put among the Atha'an Miere at the release from the Bore. Remember that Cyndane was Lanfear by that time, who is of a different height. She also was gone for, as is most likely, a considerable time, when she was with the Finns. We saw nothing of Cyndane in Lord of Chaos. The gap is much bigger than in the Mezaida theory and it's improbable Cyndane was at all existant during the time Zaida travelled to Aringill on Harine's ship. I would also say that the personality of Zaida is more like the one of Mesaana than that that of Cyndane and that several of the quotes I have used to build the case would lose it's strength.<br /><br />I'm sure I can come up with more if I take some time to think about it. I would consider Cyndane as not even close to a candidate at this point and whether it's hard for Mesaana to balance the Tower AND the Atha'an Miere (I admit that absolutely is weakest point in my theory), it's still a possibility. Cyndane hardly is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 03:29:48
subject: <b>To Yubi...</b>
body:
I don't thinkCyndane is Mesaana either, and I haven't seen anything that points to Danelle. I'm working on a theory of my own, so I don't want to say too much about it now, but I think she has close ties to the tower. Zaida's identity is a tantalising mystery, and while it's certainly possible she could be Mesaana, I just don't see it. Also, I think that the DO and the Forsaken don't see the Sea Folk as important - after all, the Semirhage-influenced Seanchan can easily blow them out of the water. By the way, I agree totally about Demandred behind the Prophet from the start - Maseema the solid Shienaran soldier going nuts in the name of the Dragon is just way too unlikely and convenient to NOT have been orchestrated by a Forsaken, and the comment about 'events to the South having Demandred's mark all over them' (or some such - don't have my books at the moment) was a dead giveaway. Do you remember the name of the Prophet's right-hand man? I forget...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 14:58:05
subject: <b>To Starglider</b>
body:
I must say I see very few probables that could pose as Mesaana, so I'll &#180;be waiting for your Theory... Close ties to the Tower??? Kinswomen? Salidar? Nope, both impossible. Well, I guess you'll tell us all later...<br /><br />Regarding Demandred: No name was ever given to identify Masema's right-hand man, which only heightens the suspicion. I'm not sure though. It's much weaker than Mesaana=Zaida. If I would construct a Theory on it, I think I would have to make Demandreds inital position among the Whitecloaks, which is a perfect base from which he easily could switch allegiances to Mesama when the Whitecloaks lost in importance. I saw a name of an early possible Whitecloak, but I can't remember right now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 12:54:46
subject: <b>Na...</b>
body:
I can't seem to remember which book, but in a conversation between two or more of the forsaken (I don't remember who), they specifically say that she's in the White Tower.


created: 2001-08-21 14:04:11
subject: <b>And? I haven't denied that</b>
body:
Of course she has been in the Tower. The theory almost depends on it. She just hasn't been ONLY in the Tower, or in the Tower ALL THE TIME. I can forgive you for not reading the entire theory (it's really long...), but I actually did mention the part where we get to know Mesaana is in the Tower. It's Graendal who gets to know so. Nothing in her thoughts makes it certain Mesaana has been in the Tower and nowhere else though, or that she has been there all the time. In fact, the comment she has in her thoughts is a little strangely formulated if Graendal actually thought Mesaana had been there all the time. It's a matter of interpretation though: In any case, NOTHING is said about Mesaana's stay in the Tower that weakens the theory by much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 01:16:25
subject: <b>Mesaana disguising ability to channel</b>
body:
Here's something. Most of the people who think Mesaana is in the Tower and only the Tower assume she is an Aes Sedai, or at least posing a someone who can channel. If not, then where is there even a single clue? But, and here's the catch, why disguise her ability to channel with Alviarin, unless she's disguising it all of the time? And if she's disguising it all of the time and posing as a channeler in the Tower, it would be so obvious, as this power is not something known to your average Aes Sedai, so she would stick out like a sore thumb, because we can all see that she can't channel but is Aes Sedai. Therefore chances are, she's posing as a nonchanneler, and no one in the tower that I can remember fits the bill. I recall RJ saying we had enough clues to identify all of the Forsaken. Granted, RJ hasn't always been good at that (Asmodean's killer sure is obvious, even though no one can figure it out for sure and supposedly, very few people who offer a name to him get it right, so the obvious choices wouldn't be right in this case) but c'mon, RJ wouldn't tell us this if there was absolutely no evidence as to Mesaana's identity except that she hides her channeling ability and has appeared in the Tower. We'd need something to identify her, so maybe we're just completely looking in the wrong direction, and I like the Zaida theory. Well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 21:34:52
subject: <b>An exceptionally well-laid out theory</b>
body:
I'm not completely convinced, because a lot of your argument frequently seems to be &quot;this quote would be meaningless if Mesaana wasn't Zaida,&quot; and perhaps the quote IS meaningless.  <br />HOWEVER --<br />Exhaustively researched, brilliantly laid out, and pretty convincing.  Just as an aside, I really like the idea of Demandred being in the Whitecloaks.  The only problem I see in that is that he wouldn't give up on the Children until after the Seanchan take over, and therefore would have a hard time posing as the Prophet's sidekick.  That doesn't rule out him supervising the Prophet, however . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 09:25:36
subject: <b>Well I'll be d.....</b>
body:
Altough I'm not a hundred percent convinced that you are right, I just have to say, this is the best bloody manifestation of dedicated investigation work I have ever seen, and I would not be surprised if it turns out to be right, If only there would be one similarity between &quot;White Tower educating Alviarin&quot; Meesana and Zaida, such as the whole pursing lips-thing, I'd be convinced.


created: 2001-09-04 00:44:10
subject: <b>WOW DUDE WOW</b>
body:
That's All I got to say right now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 05:58:23
subject: <b>Hello, did i miss something?</b>
body:
Moggy had to be able to disguise channeling  as she was tested for it at the same time as nicola, and i'm positive she taught it to Nyaneve and co, which makes me wonder why on earth they don't teach that to everyone thereby allowing the kin and AS to avoid the seanchen. Otherwise it is a great theory but, like leogolas, i'm amazed you came up with it. Ingenius.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Warder to the Fantabulous Missa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Drinker of spirits <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Eternal watcher of the Damned <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Evil Git <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Chief of the movement for Narg Superiority <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 06:52:12
subject: <b>Regarding the disguise of channeling ability</b>
body:
Well, we don't actually know that Moghedien taught the Wondergirls how to disguise their channeling ability, although it's likely. The problem with teaching the Kin is that it would not give much on the positive side. The Seanchan physically test people, probably using the a'dam, and disguising channeling ability wouldn't change the end result - they'd be collared as damane. And Aes Sedai have the Ageless look, which spoils the situation.<br /><br />Regarding Zaida and disguising channeling ability, it's of course a theorethical possibility that some Forsaken taught it to some ordinary person Zaida, who infiltrated the Atha'an Miere the same way my theory says Mesaana did. But if they did that, it would make more sense to simply use some existing Atha'an Miere darkfriend Windfinder or so to do their spying, thus eliminating the risk of getting discovered. In that case disguising channeling ability wouldn't be needed at all. But the Forsaken hasn't been a very trusting group of people, and if they was to infiltrate the Atha'an Miere, they could as well do it in a way they could rise to the near top, which only happens to non-channelers...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 03:39:38
subject: <b>Of course she did</b>
body:
To all the people who don`t think Moghedien taught Nynaeve and co the &quot;hide your channeling ability&quot; trick.<br />How do you think THEY hid her ability to channel after they caught her.<br />*cough*she was weraring an a`dam*cough*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 18:23:24
subject: <b>Yes, you are right...</b>
body:
While Moghedien still could hide her channeling ability on order of Elayne and Nynaeve, when having the a'dam (or so I believe it works), there IS proof that they have learnt (didn't think about it before).<br /><br />When Nynaeve and Elayne are in Ebou Dar they disguise themselves when going out. They would soon have been discovered, could they not hide their channeling ability, since they at least once passed very close to an Aes Sedai while in disguise (Teslyn?). So they DID learn...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 15:22:49
subject: <b>I only have time to debunk height right now</b>
body:
everyone who is from AOL is taller than average for a wetlander, anyway.<br /><br />The Aiel have had pretty much no cross breeding with other people so their blood is pretty much as it was in AOL.  They are really tall.<br /><br />Lanfear wasn't much shorter than Rand.<br /><br />Rand is same height as LTT, who is slightly taller than Dred.  Sammael is always mentioned as wishing he was taller, but he's at least as tall as Mat, who is taller than average.<br /><br />So most likely Mesaana is naturally tall.<br /><br />I don't know how this works.  I'm in a hurry, and didn't organize my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 17:26:26
subject: <b>Regarding length.</b>
body:
I will have to add that my theory is written based solely upon what is written in the books (excluding the Guide). Nonetheless, even if people during the AOL were 3 meters tall, Semirhage being referred to as &quot;tall as most men&quot; seems to be a comparison to current men, and not AOL-men. Therefore the general height of AOL-ers does not directly change the argument.<br /><br />IF believing the Guide (I read it much later than I made the theory), the theory would probably be debunked anyway because of Mesaana's length. She is said to be of average height there, while Zaida is short. I would again like to stress that no such things were mentioned in the books, but only in the guide.<br /><br />It's really a pity though, since the most probable (again only really strong if using things only said in the Guide) theory about Mesaana, namely her being Danelle, is much duller and lacks finesse. It also opens up for a lot of things Robert Jordan will not easily be able to explain (and therefore probably not will either...).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-20 23:19:18
subject: <b>Well done...</b>
body:
I am inclined to believe this theory since you put it together so well. I'm not sure Mesaana would be in the Tower and with the Sea Folk, since the other Forsaken specifically say she's in the tower, but, you never know.


created: 2002-02-21 13:01:12
subject: <b>Wrong...</b>
body:
It is clearly mentioned (by Demandred, I think, but it's been a while) that Mesaana is scuttling about in the White Tower. Your theory holds no water.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 18:44:47
subject: <b>To karlaan</b>
body:
Well, maybe you are right, but please read the theory before submitting comments about it. I have in no way said Mesaana is NOT in the Tower, but there is no comment that explicitly says she is ONLY in the Tower, or has been there all along.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 14:48:26
subject: <b>The refutation</b>
body:
First of all, it seems improbable that Mesaana could be in two places at once, in effect.  If it is one of the Forsaken, it's probably Cyndane.  But here we go:<br /><br />1.  The bouncing on the toes.  I know this is a minor point, but Egwene also did that twice (once in the Stone and at the meeting with the Andoran nobles.)<br /><br />2.  The &quot;well- aging&quot; face.  There's absolutely no reason a Forsaken would use a semi-ageless face for their disguise.  Moghedien didn't as Marigan.<br /><br />3.  The channeling.  On a few occasions in the series, Sevanna leans forward to try to see the flows being woven.  And as for the &quot;more edifying&quot; comment, the other Windfinders could tell her that Nynaeve was the strongest and most skilled at &quot;battle.&quot;  She could also tell that Nynaeve shielded Talaan a couple of times; the other Aes Sedai were very likely never able to do it.<br /><br />4.  The sense of authority.  Zaida is the equivalent of a very powerful noble, one of the 12 or so most powerful people among the Sea Folk.  To her, the Windfinders are nothing; just people to help sail a ship that have no political power (which explains her snapping).  And as for her attitude towards Elayne, she's obviously arrogant from her power and sees Elayne as just a girl.  She would be even more arrogant after hearing the Bargain Elayne made.<br /><br />I think that about sums it up.  In conclusion, I think Zaida is just one of those calm, commanding figures ala Sorilea and Cadsuane, for the SEa Folk.  The most likely Forsaken possibility for her would be Cyndane, though her talking to an Illianer (I think) at the end of WH makes that doubtful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">|Tel Janin|<br />Demigod of Wotmania<br />Destroyer of Hope<br />The Lion of Bethania<br /><br />&#8220;Millions of eyes can&#8217;t see,<br />Yet why am I so blind?<br />When someone else is me,<br />It&#8217;s unkind, it&#8217;s unkind.&#8221;  The Beegees, &#8220;Holliday&#8221;<br /><br />I</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 18:38:17
subject: <b>There are more reds than any other ajah</b>
body:
Therefore, there are more black reds than any ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 19:40:14
subject: <b>Count them up</b>
body:
3 Black Reds (Galina, Liandrin, Katerine)<br />4 Black Greens (Asne, Jeaine, Elza, Talene)<br />3 Black Greys (Temaile, Delana, Joiya)<br />2 Black Browns (Eldrith, Marillin)<br />2 Black Yellows (Chesmal, Amico)<br />2 Black Blues (Ispan, Berylla)<br />3 Black Whites (Alviarin, Rianna, Falion).<br /><br />The Red Ajah are the largest in the Tower, with approximately 1/5 of the total population (data from the Guide)<br />The known Blacks have 3/19 Red sisters, which is less than 1/6.<br />It would appear that the Red Ajah actually have somewhat less than their share of Darkfriends.<br />Perhaps we should wonder why the Whites, who are the smallest by far, have such a high proportion.<br />


created: 2001-08-16 20:24:44
subject: <b>oh</b>
body:
I haven't read the guide yet so I didn't know that the reds were the largest.  If it has been mentioned in the books,<br />I guess I just missed it.  But that still doesn't preclude them from being overrepresnted.<br /><br />This theory was a simple hypothesis on my part, with only circumstantial proof.  I think there are quite a few more <br />Blacks than listed above because there are about 900 sisters ( 300 tower, 300 salidar, 300 undeclared)  so <br />statistically there ought to be more blacks.  Most of the blacks listed above were Liandren &amp; co if I'm not mistaken,<br />and the wonder girls deduced that the extremely even distribution was a ploy to hide any patterns that might <br />point out other Blacks.<br /><br />Anyway, just trying to defend my theory.<br /><br />Chris232<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 21:35:56
subject: <b>What do we really know?</b>
body:
Building a bit on Leanna's post above. What do we REALLY know?<br /><br />Myself, as I think many others, have more or less taken for granted that there are proportionately more Blacks from the Red Ajah than the other Ajah's. Their general personality coupled with the fact that they lack warder's would seem to make it so much easier to be a red-black than, say, a Blue-black.<br /><br />But what do we really know?<br /><br />Considering the probable amounts of Blacks being much larger than the amount we know about, no pattern has been revealed at all. We actually know of less Red-Blacks than Green-blacks, which should put strain on the Warder-argument. Regarding the personality? Well, we can be pretty certain that a sister in a certain Ajah has a personality roughly on par with that Ajah, whether she is Black or not. People have many different reasons to become darkfriends, and it shouldn't have to be constricted to any one Ajah. What is left is almost nothing.<br /><br />In the Theory, Galina as head-red is mentioned. Well, she has been Black for a long time, and it would seem inevitable SOME of the Blacks, if they are turned when they are pretty young, will rise in the hierarchy. It would probably be too dangerous if Galina recruited TOO many of the Blacks from the Reds, since it would disturb the ground tactics of low-profile even WITHIN the Black Ajah. Therefore I don't think Galina as head-red is so important, other than the potential of getting info about in-Ajah affairs easier.<br /><br />Regarding the vileness. Well, we don't know too much about it. And even if the reds are involved, this is definitely an area where Galina being the head-red could have helped. The Red Ajah is a big Ajah, and even if they are under-represented, it would be easy to chose Blacks from within the Ajah.<br /><br />I can't get out of my system that Reds ought to have more Blacks than the others, but regarding actual evidence, if even circumstancial. Well, not much...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 21:55:43
subject: <b>great Purge</b>
body:
Something is mentioned during egwene's Accepted testing, you know, the third part where she's the Amyrlyn, anyway it was the great purge, which is what the that small group of Aes sedai are doing right now, the ones with the oath rod that are really sneaky.  The Great Purge was when they got rid of all the blacks by re-oathing 'em.<br /><br />You can't really say that red has the most blacks, because no one knows how many blacks there really are yet. But I agree the reds have the most, because they are the the villains, the antagonists, who else would have the most.<br /><br />I believe that rather than be disbanded they will become a female warder ajah, for the black tower.  Alot of red sisters are being bonded up by men (Logaine for instance) what better penance for their crimes over the years than to not only be attached to a man, but also to one who can channel, their crimes being the troubles after the Aile War.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ps I know it's unlikely, but it would be a fairly ironic justice.


created: 2001-08-17 00:01:43
subject: <b>clarification</b>
body:
Just to get some things out in the open, I freely acknowledge I have no proof.  This theory came about just because <br />I felt that reds had more blacks than other ajahs.  I thought about it and decided on the points mentioned in my<br />theory.  About the warder bond, I know it is possible to mask it to hide DF stuff, but don't most warders/AS get<br />worried when the bond gets fuzzed?  I think warders would get suspicious if their DF AS frequently masked the <br />bond.  All I'm really saying is with this (and all the other points) is that being red has some clear advantages<br />for blacks.  And from what I got from New Spring is that the BA were seriously hunting potential male channelers<br />right after the Aeil war, to the point of executing potential channelers w/o verifying.  I know there wasn't much more<br />but I still think this is a pretty serious indication that reds are overrepresented.<br /><br />Chris232<br /><br />PS this is my first theory to be published so I'm pretty protective of it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 06:28:59
subject: <b>Far more blacks...</b>
body:
Referring to Leanna&#180;s list: It&#180;s more than incomplete, I&#180;m sure that I could point out at least the same number of Black sisters again only by roaming through the books once more...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 08:58:05
subject: <b>Even more Blacks?</b>
body:
Then I think you should take your time to compile that list, because those mentioned by Leanna are actually all Blacks APPARENTLY Black and alive sometimes during the 9 books. There may be others we can GUESS is Black (Tarna Feir is a good candidate), but to even find 3 or 4 probable Blacks not on that list would in my opinion be close to impossible. Can you mention ONE? (And no, we don't know whether Sheriam is Black or not, and we definitely don't know the name of the possible Black sister with Elayne.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 15:53:15
subject: <b>more blacks</b>
body:
there are about 600-900 AS.  The list above is only about 20.  If only 5% of AS were BA then there should be<br />around 30-45 blacks.  And this is a very low estimation IMHO.  In order to pull of all the stuff they do, put together<br />a completely evenly distributed group (Liandren &amp; co), put up a couple of sitters, and divide at least partially<br />to go to Salidar w/ the rebels...I'd say at least 100 sisters are needed by the BA to do all this.  Thats only a little<br />over 10% on the 900 side, and this close to the last battle I suspect that there would be the highest levels of BA <br />in BA history<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 15:59:54
subject: <b>How many Blacks?</b>
body:
My own guess would be around 1/8 of all Aes Sedai. Somewhere between 100 and 200. The question just above though was about Blacks we KNOW about, which is about 20 and no more, if I understand correctly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 16:06:18
subject: <b>Warders and BA</b>
body:
I believe the BA is probably fairly even but there are a higher proportion of Reds and even more so Whites.  Whites are dedicated to logic and logically the DO is going to win.  Without emotion, how do you choose good as it is a moral/emotional decision.  The Whitecloaks try to pull all emotion out of their beliefs and they have perverted good along the same lines as Aridhol.<br /><br />As for the rest of the Ajah's nothing says that men-haters are more likely to join the DO.  Although a few sisters (Pevara) have picked Ajah's for which they are not especially suited, it's unlikely that all the BA did (Liandrin &amp; co. seem to show how dedicated they were to their way of life).<br /><br />The Warder problem is not that big a deal.  The more I read of the White Tower, the more I think less of the AS have Warders.  Why would Whites and Browns and Yellows that never leave the Tower want a Warder?  Many don't.  I could see them bonding a scholar or something but we have no evidence that any of them have done that.  Also, the Green Sitter they caught had no Warders.  Why?  She said it was because she never left the Tower.  A good reason?  No one seems to have made a big deal of it.


created: 2001-08-17 16:48:34
subject: <b>Yubi and Chris232 are correct I think</b>
body:
Every attempt I have made (and every reasonable attempt by others that I am aware of) to estimate the size of the BA (from number of known BA sitters, etc...) has yeilded a number around 80 to 120 maybe as high as 150.  This corresponds to roughly 8% to 15% of the WT.  This means that roughtly 1 in 12 up to 1 in 7 of the AS are darkfriends.  Commonsense says this is way too high.  Imagine one out of 10 of your friends being a Darkfriend.  I can see one in 20 maybe.  <br /><br />This implies there is some sort of selection mechanism.  (For example BA live longer (not likely) or the BA actively recruits among the DF network (a greater possibility))<br /><br />Anyway, I agree with the main post about possible reasons for Reds being more likely to be BA.  I vaguely remember RJ making a comment to that effect as well (that BA are more likely to be Red because of Warders).  Their have been 8 major players among the Reds in the book that I can think of.  Three of them are known BA. Four of them are most likely or definitely not (Teslyn, Pevara, Elaida, and the Red captured by Logain) and one is a maybe Tarna.  That IS a rather high percentage of Red!<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 05:08:46
subject: <b>Incomplete listing</b>
body:
In response to the person who claimed my list was incomplete: It isn't. Every sister known to be Black is on there. If you suspect someone not on it, that's your business, but I'd be very surprised if you found one missing for whom there is proof.<br /><br />Liandrin's thirteen, who have all been named for us at some point or another.<br />Alviarin, revealed in book 3, later confirmed from her point of view.<br />Katerine, revealed from her point of view in book 6.<br />Galina, from Katerine's POV in book 6, confirmed from her own later.<br />Delana, revealed when Halima/Aran'gar turns up in book 6.<br />Talene, discovered by the other Sitters in book 8 and confirmed in book 9,<br />Elza, revealed at the end of book 9.<br /><br />Who do you claim I missed? Certainly there are many more of them around, but we don't know who they are.<br />


created: 2001-08-19 05:13:10
subject: <b>Addendum</b>
body:
Oh, and I wasn't counting Black sisters who died before the series began. But if you were, add Merean and Jarna.<br /><br />Regarding the difficulties with Black sisters having Warders, Asne has four, three of whom are not Darkfriends, and she seems to manage just fine.


created: 2001-08-20 14:30:15
subject: <b>Why Red = Black</b>
body:
It is stated in the book that having no warder, an Aes Sedai finds one less obstacle in turning to the Shadow.  However, Alviarin is also in high standing, and she is of the White Ajah.  Conversely, while Galina is Red/Black Ajah, we also have reason to believe that Elaida is of the Red but not Black Ajah.  In the inquiry being made by Seane, (sp?) her friend Pevara (Red Ajah) is not BA.<br /><br />I think that although the Red Ajah philosophy makes certain conditions which are ideal for BA sisters, it would be rash to say that Red Ajah = Black Ajah.  Some Reds are not evil, and some Blacks are not Reds, so the theory lacks some foundations.


created: 2001-08-20 16:22:23
subject: <b>Mad Rantings</b>
body:
Nynaeve MUST DIE!!!  I can handle Faile, and Elayne, merely irritating, but Nynaeve  . . .  <br /><br />(Roaring suddenly)  Death!   Slow, painful, agonizing DEATH!!!   Balefire's too good for her!   Roasting over an open flame!   Her stupid braid on fire.   Roasting!   Until she dies!   DIES!!!  <br /><br />(Painting wildly) Lan deserves better!   Anyone else!  Would be better!   Anyone else!   So annoying!   The sniffing!   The bullying!   The controlling!   Making me insane!   INSANE!!!   (Deranged giggling insues)<br /><br />Kill her!   Yes!   I MUST KILL HER!!!   It will be worth it!   Whatever Lan does to me!   WORTH IT!!!   As long as she dies!   DIES!!!  (Gropes wildly for the Source)<br /><br />(Remembers there is no Source - but gropes anyway)<br /><br />(The air begins to shimmer, to gather heat.   Turns to liquid flame) <br /><br />(The room is on fire, but still he laughs, tears sizzling down his cheeks)<br /><br />(Suddenly, the cat bursts into flame.   Screaching fuzz ball on fire!)<br /><br />Kitty, no!!!   NO!!!   Oh, Light.   What have I done!   Oh Light forgive me!   Kitty, FORGIVE ME!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />(But Kitty is a crispy critter.   Slowly, he succumbs to the full wracking sobs of man who has nothing left to live for)<br /><br />(The building begins to burn down around his ears.   He barely notices)<br /><br />(And then the weeping cuts off as if it had never been)  Nynaeve!   You are responsible for this!!!   The death of Kitty is on your head.   You will pay for what you have done!   Oh yes, you will pay.   It's never over Al' Nynaeve!   IT'S NEVER OVER!   HaHaHaHaHa(snort)HaHa!<br />


created: 2001-08-21 11:32:22
subject: <b>I Disagree</b>
body:
I actually believe that the White Ajah would contain the most Black Ajah members. Correct me if I'm wrong but Whites do follow logic and therefore one would have to assume that an abundance of Whites (contemplating on the Light vs Shadow) would eventually come to the conclusion that the Shadow would win (either in this Age or another) this is almost the same reasoning that Ishamael went to the Shadow. I do however, believe that the Red Ajah is represented in the book (POV and known BA memebers) simply because they are typically the nastiest of all the Ajah and the most cruel.


created: 2001-08-21 21:35:44
subject: <b>ok..ummm</b>
body:
First, the title is red=black is just an attention grabber; if you read about one sentance or so into my theory you<br />would see that I say reds are OVERREPRESENTED.  To those of you who this does not apply, I apologize.<br /><br />Leanna, I don't disagree with you that your list is all the blacks we know for sure about.  I just don't think there's <br />a snowball's chance in hell that list contains all the blacks.  And for determining which ajah is overrepresented, <br />I think we have to throw out Liandrin &amp; co. because they were chosen with the intent of throwing off an emerging<br />pattern.<br /><br />As for whites...Personnaly, I don't see how the DO winning is logical.  Please post to explain this to me b/c I'm<br />fairly interested in how you came to this conclusion.  And if you think Ishy is logical, well, I've got just one <br />question...<br /><br />Do you buy your crack, or do you have a lab where you make it?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 22:20:04
subject: <b>Whites and Ishamael</b>
body:
While I do not believe we have so much to go on regarding overrepresentation of Whites in the Black Ajah, more or less the same applies as it does with Reds. They have seldom Warders and they have a promintent player high up among their own ranks (Alviarin). They also have a personality that, as with the Reds, is quite special and COULD cover up a high number of Blacks, because of the extreme lack of emotion shown by most Whites. On top of this, the Whites is a very small Ajah and it's not so far-fetched that heavier recruiting to the Shadow could be made in this small Ajah, so that it does not get too weak within the Black hierarchy. It's still mostly speculation and currently neither White nor Red is more than two good alternatives as being overrepresented. To think logically would hardly mean believing the DO would win, but rather the contrary.<br /><br />Regarding Ishamael, I DO think he is logical, and I'm pretty sure I'm not on drugs (unless you count coffee<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. He apparently tries to analyze every situation and make up sophisticated plans (most of which we know nothing about) based on his conclusions. He is also an accomplished player of an extremely difficult game, and was very interested in philosophy. But compared to the White Ajah members, his own gain in turning to the Shadow would have been much greater, combined with the fact it gave him an opportunity to fight Lews Therin. In other words, he is no argument for the Whites having any reason to logically think the DO will win TG, but he DOES seem like a person who might think logically.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 02:25:50
subject: <b>The Red Logain Captured</b>
body:
Toveine is not BA...she was simply a Red Sitter who was exiled for taking part in the madness right after the Aiel war, and brought back by Elaida to take out the Asha'man camp.  And now she wants Elaida's head on a a stick, and I can't say that I blame her.  But nowhere in her musings does it say that she's of the BA.


created: 2001-08-22 06:01:33
subject: <b>More and more comments</b>
body:
Toveine pretty clearly isn't, and neither is anyone else from her group, incidentally. Alviarin thought the plan was doomed and decided not to send any Black sisters.<br /><br />Chris, I wasn't referring to you when defending my list, but to the person who claimed he could find at least twice as many. Hold on a moment... *checks names* Llaydwhonn. In terms of sisters named in the books, it's accurate. In terms of total Black sisters, of course, it's vastly incomplete. There's the entire Great Council: out of thirteen there, we know two. And if there are thirteen leaders, plus multiple ranks of lesser sisters, there have to be a LOT more. My guess would be around a hundred, maybe more, but less than two hundred.<br /><br />So yes, it is entirely possible that the Red has more Black sisters than the other Ajahs - or less - but the evidence of the known ones doesn't say one way or another.<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-22 08:22:06
subject: <b>The head of the BA is White</b>
body:
I don`t think there are more red=black than of the others ahjas. The leder is White ( she still is isn`t she I havn`t started book 9 yet ). In aPoD one of the Aes Sedais looking for BA in the White tower is red. It is easy to think that all reds are really black because they are not very nice most of the time. Haven`t &quot;met&quot; a red I like yet.


created: 2001-08-22 16:53:36
subject: <b>What's with the whites?</b>
body:
First of all, I agree that the Reds are probably the equivalent of the blacks, so RJ should get rid of them soon...<br />And second, I think that many of you are jumping to conclusions here, I mean, you're using the excuse of Alviarin being able to talk with Mesaana to portray the whites as dominating the black hierarchy<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 21:16:18
subject: <b>Disproportionate representation</b>
body:
In the bunch of 14 DA who stole the dream ter'angreal &amp; left the tower, there were two from each Ajah. They had varied backgrounds etc.<br />IMHO, there MUST be a pattern to the number of BA in a given Ajah, or they wouldn't have had to be so careful about who were sent out. Red seems the most liekly candidate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 10:58:25
subject: <b>No pattern COULD actually mean &quot;no pattern&quot;</b>
body:
That is the same reasoning that goes on when assuming saying &quot;no comments&quot; means a confession of guilt. It could simply mean &quot;no comments&quot;. We don't know. The same for the Black Ajah thing. They were 13 (1 red, two out of every other Ajah). It could mean nothing. It's natural to take 13 for the symbolic value of it, and it's natural to let Reds have only 1, since the Reds, in their position of biggest Ajah, probably also has most members in the Black Ajah, even if they are NOT overrepresented. We simply don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 18:35:14
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
Leanna, I really didn't mean for that to offend you.<br /><br />Yubi, I agree that Ishy was probably extremely logical for a long time; but his death and TP ODing, not to mention<br />pretending he is the DO, are not conducive to rational thinking.  Of course, he could have some knowledge we<br />don't, and in light of that acting quite rationally.  And I have to agree that the DO winning=logic makes no sense<br />to me.  Will somebody please enlighten me on this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 06:14:38
subject: <b>Did NE1 Consider.....</b>
body:
........that the red ajah may just be the best place for channeling darkfriends to serve the Great Lord? Imean Reds hunt men who can channel. The Dragon is a man who can channel. Killing the Dragon make Great Lord happy...... la la la la la<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 06:14:56
subject: <b>Did NE1 Consider.....</b>
body:
........that the red ajah may just be the best place for channeling darkfriends to serve the Great Lord? Imean Reds hunt men who can channel. The Dragon is a man who can channel. stillng the Dragon make Great Lord happy...... la la la la la<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 06:16:55
subject: <b>Sorry bout that</b>
body:
but you will notice that i say oth killing and stilling (whatever turns you on)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 14:39:29
subject: <b>About Leanna&#180;s list and whites</b>
body:
I always supossed reds were overrepresented in BA, but I&#180;m going to have to change my mind...<br />I&#180;m quite sure Joiya Byir is not grey as Leanna stated, but white. Remember when Ewgene and Nynaeve had Amico and Joiya captured in TSR begining... it&#180;s said Joiya had the cold glance of whites, or something like that. So we must now fear White Ajah..., uhhmm.<br />Good work, Leanna, but I also think that we know just a few reds and half of them are black, too many IMHO.<br />


created: 2001-08-31 18:59:05
subject: <b>Joiya IS Grey...</b>
body:
Well, now she is anyway. RJ probably wanted her to be White, because she was initially. It happened to not fit with the story though (two others among the thirteen who went away were also White, contrary to what is said about 2 from every Ajah but the Red), so in later printings of TSR, Joiya's Ajah is changed to grey.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 06:19:08
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Sorry, I didn&#180;t know about this change, but in my book Joiya is white... Anyway, I think it&#180;s a quite bad change: at that moment in TSR (and later, during a lot of time), RJ hadn&#180;t stated anything about many of Liandrin&#180;s partners, and he could have changed that characters from Ajah as many times as he wanted until he got the count...<br />Giving Joiya the cold personality of a white and then changing her Ajah, is so stupid as..., as..., as letting us believe Perrin is orphan and then giving him a whole family with sisters included! (unfortunately all dead...)<br />Well, I must surrender: RJ is the Creator and he can re-write the Pattern in every edition as many times as he wants... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Darn!


created: 2001-09-04 01:03:45
subject: <b>Retread of old stuff.....</b>
body:
Here's a response I originally posted on the black board to my Secret Light Friends theory (I know it might be inappropriate to plug one of my own theories but it was the first one at this sight to have a content advisory on offensive material so check it out if you want. be warned that it's meant as a joke though).<br /><br />   Now onto my thought on the brave and noble Red Ajah (said with out irony or sarcasm mind you I'm serious).<br /><br />....What is it with the idea that the Red Ajah is either some kind of nesting ground for 'pillow friends' or the central recruiting post for the Black Ajah? Suerly if I had been able to recall all of the ideas that came to mind when I originally posted this I would have made a snyde remark about their status as pillow friend central. I would have probably gone further and said that my twist ending that would be very twisted would give them a chance to do something other than be the laughing stock of the White Tower and things like that.<br /><br />However it srikes me as somewhat narrow minded to seriously think (not that I'm implying that anyone has) that they are chalk full of dark/pillow friends.<br /><br />For starters I don't think being a red makes one more apt to be gay or bi than being a green or a white. The fact that they don't take warders is not any real evidenc at all. Afterall it would be totally unethical to ask a man to protect a woman whose primary funtcion is to cut men off from the source, an action that statistically is almost garaunteed to nullify their will to live. No man could stomach a sight like that too many times and still be ready to die for his protectorate, particularly with the link giving him some possible feed back.<br /><br />also don't think that being a Red is indicataive of being a man-hater. I recall one red sister either in one of the two aiel factions camp, or with the sisters that got bushwhacked by the Ashamon that was thinking about how much she missed the young boys she used to seduce. I believe it was the Red that got called out of retirement to go after the black tower.<br /><br />I whole heartedly doubt that any single Red Sister takes an ounce of pleasure form gentling a man. These women are doing a necessary job that has to be done and nothing more. Rember that gentling is just stilling with another name. Every Aes Sedai has a gut reaction of dread when it comes to that (well most of them anyhow), so to have to do it to another person even if he is a man that will eventually go mad and be totally Faster Pussycat Kill Kill style. I would imagine gentling is something that leaves any Aes Sedai crying after that first itme she does it. I t may not be something can be gotten over, only familiar. <br /><br />I don't think life in the Red Ajah would breed hatred of men, if anything it'd probably breed pity. Reds porbably have a endless collection of jokes about men, andmost likely use them to lighten up the hardship of what they have to do. Having to deny a man of his very will to live and cut his lifespan incredibly short (especially if yours is incredibly long) would have to wear on one after awhile. I think the reason that most reds don't have much contact with men (aside from any sane man not wanting to get too close to them) would stem from their worries about thinking of men like that when they have to do their job. <br /><br />I really get bristled at the idea of the Red Ajah being a central branch for the black ajah. I don't think anyone ajah is more or less immune from infiltration than any others. The idea that reds are just a rabid pack of man hating bull dykes that will sell their souls to the shadow almost as fast as they'd lift their dresses for another woman.<br /><br />I think that the reds could arguementatively have the job that runs most counter to the will of the dark one. If there are less men channeling around then there's less chaos to go around. If Shaitdawg wants to have the Lord Of Chaos in Effect, then getting rid of chanellin men folk aint gonna help that out none. Theirs is a thankless task that much of the world hates them for. Day in day out the Red Ajah have had to work diligently to make sure that there isn't another incident like the breaking of the world. All they get is pain, heartache, endangerment of life and ridicule.<br /><br />I find it ironic that they are the butt of so many jokes (some of those jokes my own) when they may truly be the most dedicated Ajah, with the most dedicated Aes Sedai in all of Tar Valon. They may be the best and most noble of their kind, and they are hated for that. It seems to sum up the way of Jordans unique world so well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 22:22:22
subject: <b>Blak=red because</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be in the interest of darkfriends to gentle a man who couls potentially bring the DO to an end/reimprison him in the end. I think Gentling the Dragon would be a good goal for a black ajah, and one that fits in well w/ the Red ajah...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/5416.gif" /><br /><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="Teal"> Keith</font></font> (NOT BACK)<br /><font face="Times New Roman"><i> One always dies too soon-- or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are-- your life, and nothing else.</i>  - Garcin, <b>No Exit</b></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 15:15:11
subject: <b>Dear God</b>
body:
This post is getting into a yelling match half of these people dont know the facts. Galina and Alviarin are on the high council. Reds job isnt to hunt men who can channel, its to prevent another breaking, and since men cant channel (till book 9) without going insane they had to gentle them to prevent another breaking. Also wasnt Coiren on the high council?


created: 2002-02-22 11:51:10
subject: <b>You're an extremist</b>
body:
Red does not equal black. I agree that there are probably more Blacks hiding in the Red Ajah than in the others, but that doesn't make every Red = Black. <br />I also don't think that the Reds will be disbanded. There will probably be a little ostracism, but the Red is the best agency for the hunting of Stray Darkfriends after TG. Egwene might find them useful. Remeber, durng Egwene's test for accepted, she sees in the last ring a &quot;great purging&quot;? Betcha the Reds are useful there. They are a hnter's agency. That's all. <br />P.S. The reason Red's have more DF's than other is because of the No-Warder clause, not vice-versa, as you suggest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 11:52:14
subject: <b>You're an extremist</b>
body:
Red does not equal Black. I agree that there are probably more Blacks hiding in the Red Ajah than in the others, but that doesn't make every Red = Black. <br />I also don't think that the Reds will be disbanded. There will probably be a little ostracism, but the Red is the best agency for the hunting of stray Darkfriends after TG. Egwene might find them useful. Remeber, durng Egwene's test for accepted, she sees in the last ring a &quot;great purging&quot;? Betcha the Reds are useful there. They are a hunters agency. That's all. <br />P.S. The reason Red's have more DF's than others is because of the No-Warder clause, not vice-versa, as you suggest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 07:34:35
subject: <b>Re: Warder Problem</b>
body:
Someone argued that the Warder would grow suspicious if the bond was alays fuzzed. Well if it was never unfuzzed they would never know any difference. If they ever slipped they could say that it was because of some contact or something like that and get some other black sister to back them up if the warders say they're lying (which is unlikely because warders all respect Aes Sedai)<br /><br />By the way Lord of the Rings movie is good but if you read the book you would know its about a million miles between.<br /><br />Also U2 rule!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lews Therin Telamon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Dragon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lord of the Morning<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Breaker of the World<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Kinslayer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 15:35:25
subject: <b>Red Can't Equal Black</b>
body:
I know it seems very possible but red can't be black because (and this is as far as I am so if something changes give me a rap on my hand or something) when Elayne and Egwene and Nynaeve were all reading the info Verin gave them, they noticed the pattern - the black ajah all came from different ajahs in a pattern, like 2 from each, so the red is while wrong i think in their beliefs are not all black and warders are bonded so they couldnt do anything and they might be black too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> The Young One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm surprised, you're ot usually the one to fall off cliffs.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 14:35:17
subject: <b>Wow, I'm first!</b>
body:
1 vote, 100% thumb down...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 15:30:56
subject: <b>thumbs up</b>
body:
I'll give it a thumbs up, just for it's originality.  Just promise, you will go and get help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Raistlin Majere<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Challenger of Gods<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Procrastination means never having to say you're sorry.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 18:01:53
subject: <b>Nynaeve</b>
body:
Nynaeve MUST DIE!!! I can handle Faile, and Elayne, merely irritating, but Nynaeve . . . <br /><br />(Roaring suddenly) Death! Slow, painful, agonizing DEATH!!! Balefire's too good for her! Roasting over an open flame! Her braid on fire. Roasting! Until she dies! DIES!!! <br /><br />(Painting wildly) Lan deserves better! Anyone else! Would be better! Anyone else! A GOAT would be better!  So annoying! The sniffing! The bullying! The controlling! Making me insane! INSANE!!! (Deranged giggling insues)<br /><br />Kill her! Yes! I MUST KILL HER!!! It will be worth it! Whatever Lan does to me! WORTH IT!!! As long as she dies! DIES!!! (Gropes wildly for the Source)<br /><br />(Remembers there is no Source - but gropes anyway)<br /><br />(The air begins to shimmer, to gather heat, and ingnites in liquid flame) <br /><br />(The room is on fire, but still he laughs, tears sizzling down his cheeks)<br /><br />(Suddenly, the cat bursts into flame. Screaching fuzz ball on fire!)<br /><br />Kitty, no!!! NO!!! Oh, Light. What have I done! Oh Light forgive me! Kitty, FORGIVE ME!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />(But the crispy critter that was Kitty gives one last moarnful squeak, and then, the burdon of life too much bear, rests her still flaming head on the ground and moves no more.) <br /><br />(Slowly, he succumbs to the full wracking sobs of a man who has nothing left to live for)<br /><br />(The building begins to burn down around his ears. He barely notices)<br /><br />(And then the weeping cuts off as if it had never been) Nynaeve! You are responsible for this!!! The death of Kitty is on your head. You will pay for what you have done! The whole WORLD will pay!  Oh yes, but you will pay. It's never over Al' Nynaeve! IT'S NEVER OVER! HaHaHaHaHa(snort)HaHaHa!<br />


created: 2001-08-22 02:09:18
subject: <b>My Only Question Is...</b>
body:
...when Nyn undid the one braid in Tanchico and refasioned it into all those little braids...what happened to the wheel?  Is that the representation of the Portal Stone Worlds, or what?


created: 2001-08-22 16:48:22
subject: <b>That's nice...</b>
body:
So what would happen if Nyn had one or her infamous<br />fits and tugs off the whole braid...?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 19:18:32
subject: <b>Burr's comment on exclamation marks made me give this</b>
body:
a thumbs up.  Normally, I put looney theories on thumbs down so as not to lure mindless people into the trap of reading them (mindless enough to click on something with this title expecting something serious).  But...that was too funny.<br /><br />Oh, and *balefires the Great Lord on the Jon*.  You know, that is EXACTLY what Ishamael should have done at the end of the EotW prologue...wait...theorizing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 21:49:25
subject: <b>About those mad ramblings -</b>
body:
If the Great Lord on the Jon (and also on crack, by all the evidence) posts another blackboard comment with that really, really messed up thing, I'm hiring Slayer to take him out. Who's with me?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 14:15:22
subject: <b>Great Lord - That was hilarious dude</b>
body:
I thought that whole &quot;Nynaeve MUST DIE&quot; thing was freakin' funny man.  I'm not a great fan of hers either, but I don't think I could have come up with a satire that was so amusing and witty.  Ya got the mad channeler thing down perfect.  I agree totally that Nynaeve is the most annoying character in the series.  Lan DOES deserve much better.  And to those above me who didn't apreaciate its humourous nature, lighten up, and laugh a little.<br /><br />Good work Bro,<br /><br />The Kahn  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-23 16:54:27
subject: <b>Great Lord (on the John?) Great Satire, keep em' comin'</b>
body:
I'm new to Wotmania, but I just had to defend your anecdote from those uptight Nynaeve Lovers.  It really was just hysterical.  &quot;It's never over Al' Nynaeve!&quot;  (lol)<br /><br />I can't say I dislike Nyn as much as you seem to, but I don't see any harm in having fun at her expence.  She is so angry and controlling that she practically invites it.<br /><br />Don't be discouraged by those who don't understand satire humor.  Others do.  <br /><br />To those outraged by the story: like the guy above me said, Lighten Up. And as for someone being on crack. . . Mr. T, please tell me your theory post was just a big joke too.  Nynaeve's braid holding the keys to ever-lasting knowledge?  I mean come on, really.<br /><br />If people are going to post such silly theories in the first place, then don't get offended when somebody posts a silly (and actually funny) response on the Blackboard.<br /><br />Great Lord, I wouldn't be offended if came up with more stuff like that. &quot;He remembers there is no source, but gropes anyway.&quot; (lol) That's great.<br /><br />Fantastic story<br /><br />WilderOneTwo


created: 2001-08-24 15:42:22
subject: <b>Kahn &amp; Wilder, Thanks for your Support - Nynaeve's admirable qualities are . . . ?</b>
body:
I'm glad somebody saw my little message post as &quot;funny&quot; and not &quot;really, really messed up&quot;.<br /><br />I was just trying get a laugh, (albeit a sarcastic one) and I appologize if some were offended by my repetitive use of the word &quot;die&quot;.  I guess I was just in a cryptic humor when I wrote the satire.<br /><br />And to those of you who see Nynaeve as anything but demanding and severe, please tell me what aspects you find appealing in her.  I'll admit that her manner toward Lan is not alltogether unpleasant, but the way she deals with just about everyone else - especially members of the oppisite sex - I think is just ghastly.<br /><br />She is spiteful and conceded and incredibly demanding. And I have no idea how she won the heart of Al' Lan Mandragoran, legondary Uncrowned King of Malkier, Dia Shan Battle Lord, and Master of the Seven Towers.  Must have been when Jordan had us following another plot thread.<br /><br />Please, Nynaeve Lovers out there, enlighten me as to her desirable qualities for I've had a hard time identifying any.<br /><br />Well, I didn't mean for this to be a Nynaeve Bashing post, I just wanted to assure you all that my anecdote was indeed intended to be humorous and I apoligize for any offence rendered.<br /><br />Any further posts I submit shall be better screened for harsh content.  Please let me know if this last one went a bit too far.<br /><br />Thanks Kahn &amp; Wilder,<br /><br />The Great Lord on Crack, (lol) good one Stranger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Great Lord on the Jon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <br />


created: 2001-08-26 15:33:15
subject: <b>Dear Great Lord of the Jon</b>
body:
Positive qualities of Nynaeve?  Well Nynaeve has a lot of positive qualities if you can get past the negative ones.  She is generous to the poor (although she doesn't want to admit it.)  She is fairly observant about human nature and about organizations.  (She quickly picked up about the Kin for instance.)  She changes her mind when she is wrong (although usually she tries to pretend to herself that she had the right idea all along.)  She is extremely brave, to the point of foolhardy, when helping someone else  (witness how she sticks around to help Birgitte in T'A'R) even though her general nature is to run away from everything.  She is determined.  She has accomplishe alot in her short life (capturing Moggy twice, helping to defeat Rahvin, curing stilling, helping to cleanse Saidin).  She is caring and openly compassionate, when she is not angry even though she won't admit it to herself.  (She is always wanting to help or heal someone).<br /><br />Granted, you are right about her weaknesses as well.  She is obnoxious, overbearing, treatment of men, etc..  The funny thing is that Mat has the EXACT same weaknesses (although to a slightly less degree) and the EXACT same strengths as Nynaeve (compassion they don't want to admit, running away from everything until something forces them to commit extreme acts of bravery in defense of someone else) yet no one complains about him to the same extent.  Go figure.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 17:17:35
subject: <b>RabidWombat</b>
body:
Yes, but Mat is actually kind to people other than Lan (unlike Nynaeve).  He wants to help people (like the AS that were damane, and Tylin, and her son), and doesn't need to be forced into it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 01:35:55
subject: <b>so what happens when she gets a hair cut?</b>
body:
so what happens when she gets a hair cut, or when she takes a bath? i guess it rains when is takes a bath and the age will end when she gets her hair cut


created: 2001-08-27 19:22:50
subject: <b>Hey, Great Lord . . .</b>
body:
My only problem was that you stuck your thing on three seperate theories that I saw, and after number three it got a little repetitive.  It wasn't bad the first time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 13:53:18
subject: <b>Lan deserves the best</b>
body:
He is the best character in the series so he deserves the best woman, which means that all the bad sides of Nynaeve's character are just an act.<br /><br />Together with the fact  that she has created the pattern through her braid, this leads me to the conclusion that she is the Creator. (Wow, the Creator's a woman!!!!!!!!)<br /><br />This is a way of maintaining the fiction that the Creator stays out of it all, while actually fighting the Shadow - face it, how many characters have done more to stop the Shadow than Nyn?<br /><br />Only Lan has seen the truth because only Lan is worthy of knowing it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 21:24:20
subject: <b>hmmm.....</b>
body:
I think I like that.<br /><br />I just don't like her. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />o well.  Can't have everything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 16:58:24
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
But I wonder what the significance of he getting her hair done in multiple thinner braids during their time in Tanchio would be?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 22:55:31
subject: <b>It is obvious</b>
body:
Hey you ever heard of the phrase in the WOT &quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel will.&quot;? that is a lot of weaving and just doing that Ta'veren thingy for Rand, Mat and Perrin or can she? Maybe that why she get so fustrated with them.


created: 2001-09-19 13:57:02
subject: <b>Nyn, Mat, Eggy</b>
body:
1. I agree that Mat has similar qualities to Nyn, EXCEPT, MAt presents them in a happy, loveable, NOT ANGRY way.<br /><br />As for good qualities of Nyn?  Well, I really like how when Little Miss Eggy got on her &quot;I'm the Queen of the World and all will bow to me&quot; power trip in the early books,<br />Nyn tried real hard to get along with her.  Granted, she didn't always succeed, and it ended up being Elayne who<br />bore the brunt of it all.  However, Nyn is starting to learn how to swallow a microscopic portion of her pride.<br /><br />Now, GReat Lord on the Jon, or may I call you Lord Jon?<br /><br />I propose that we form an alliance.  I will assist you in the ultimate destruction of Nynaeve (even tho I'm a fan, I couldn't<br />really care less what happened to her) if you will assist me in the ULTIMATE HUMILIATION of Egwene.<br /><br />We could lock them in a room together and burn it to the ground!!!!!!!<br /><br />And since exclamation marks make something true (apparently)<br />I'd just liek to say EGWENE IS EVIL!!!<br /><br /><br />oh, and the theory?  I really enjoyed it.  If Nyn's braid is the wheel, what does that make Perrin's giant shoulders?  They have to have been<br />mentioned just as often.<br /><br />Or, do you recall when Nyn dyed her hair to disguise herself?  Perhaps, that is what caused the entire drought/hot weather incident<br />and the wheel was just really slow catching up....<br /><br /><br />~Princess Evamarie~<br />Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Hunter of the &quot;Amyrlin&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 00:31:54
subject: <b>Three Strands?</b>
body:
so, if Nyn's braid is the Wheel, how would you explain the three locks that make it up? three main worlds?<br />rand, mat, and perrin as ta'veren?<br />and yes, nynaeve annoys me too. i understand her good qualities, but sometimes, oh sometimes, i wonder<br />it lan deserves better.<br />what will happen when moiraine gets back?<br /><br />kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:22:56
subject: <b>ummm. ok....</b>
body:
so... how long have you been using saidin jon??? if that's the kind of rambling we'll all be expecting from rand if he didnt cleanse the male half, it would be a spectacular fight scene with the dark one huh?<br /><br />see rand try to fry the dark one's cat maybe... hehehe...<br /><br />ill admit. it was hilarious the way the cat sizzled afterwards.... hehehe... nice kitty kitty kitty...<br /><br />keep it up... im waiting to read some more....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 23:59:42
subject: <b>shut up</b>
body:
i think, that there is some logic in the theory, although not much. maybe the braid is a reflection of her own thread in the pattern. refering to what kiln sedai says about the three strands, if it's that intracate, wouldn't she use more than 3?,   otherwise, the 3 starnds are parts of herself- wife, Aes Sedai, and friend,   that sort of thing.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />nyneave's (only) friend (on the board) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 21:49:17
subject: <b>The Great Lord of the Jon</b>
body:
Holy crap!(Excuse my potty mouth) I was rolling around on the ground and laughing hysterically (however you spell that)! THAT was great!!!<br /><br />Oh, and the personage that did the theory... not bad. I think it's... believable.<br /><br />-Whitney<br />THe Froggy One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />(and one who cannot spell)


created: 2002-08-03 19:55:46
subject: <b>ooooooookaaayyyyy.....</b>
body:
uh, are you guys alright? i mean, all this talk about nynaeve's braid? it's a braid for heaven's sake!!!!!!!!!! it's hair, all wound up. have you considered the fact that maybe nynaeve is just a little crazy because of all the stuff that's happened to her since moiraine came to the two rivers? she's probably traumatized for life! anyway, i know nynaeve's a little annoying (that's probably a huge understatement) but don't you think you guys are going a little too far?!?!? she's not my fav character, but still.<br /><br />that's all i have to say<br /><br />dreamergirl<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-27 15:06:29
subject: <b>Nice Try!</b>
body:
I checked out tDR, chapter 18, paragraph 12, and it doesn't say that at all! Otherwise, great theory- I love it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-01 00:22:00
subject: <b>re: egwene the dreamer</b>
body:
ITS A HUMORUS THEORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! o and great lord john never forget faile (heehehehe) nj<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you lend  someone 20 bucks and never see them again it was worth it.<br /><br />penguins will come into storyline i just kno it<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 04:10:30
subject: <b>Aes Sedai, Asha'man and other channelers</b>
body:
Remember Egwene's desire to bring all women that can channel to the Tower? How long will it take for her to change 'women' to 'people'? Every channeling woman won't be Aes Sedai, but maybe... maybe some men will. And maybe, in time and for some freak reasons, some women will become Asha'man? So that the communities would be closely or loosely linked, but not one.<br /><br />Wise Ones will be Wise Ones, Windfinders will remain Windfinders, but what will become of channeling men among them? Remember, Aes Sedai speaks no word that is not true, so if many enough of them state plainly enough that Saidin is clean and channeling men won't go mad anymore, maybe people will start to believe them. Wouldn't it be funny if the task of convincing them fell to Red Ajah? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Or maybe the Reds will become the first female bunch of Asha'man? Now, rub Elaida's nose on that... Egwene thundering, &quot;Red Ajah is no more! Choose another Ajah or join the Black Tower!&quot;<br /><br />It wouldn't be nice at all if all men just became male Aes Sedai under Amyrlin's rule, or if the Black Tower simply became a subsection of the White Tower, but there must be a connection.<br /><br />Hmm, there was a chunk of my drifting thoughts in this fine morning, feel free to rip it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seita, who is not a morning person<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 12:44:07
subject: <b>Societal breaking</b>
body:
I didn't mean to imply that there was not massive physical destruction during the breaking.  What I meant was that in itself such destruction would not be enough to destroy the society that existed during the AoL.<br /><br />Let's assume that instead of making men mad the taint simply killed them.  With the loss of that foundation the society might very well have collapsed (imange what would happen if electricty suddenly no longer worked).  The madness simply insured the collaspe, and the length of time before rebuilding could happen.


created: 2001-08-24 14:27:15
subject: <b>Disagree: Rand is going to break the world again</b>
body:
I don't think that Rand ever did break the world.  <br /><br />First, I don't think that Rand and Lews are the same person.  Sure Lews did and Rand is the &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot;, but this does not mean that Rand is Lews re-incarnated.  Rand hears Lews in his head.  So Lews exists somewhere or somehow.  All the other thoughts on those that are &quot;reborn&quot; ARE the person before not talking to them.  Could it be that the wheel spins a hero named &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot; that helps correct the adverse effects of the taint and the breaking.<br /><br />Secondly, remember that when the wheel comes full circle that the people don't remember the events that happend the last time.  In this case we know plenty of the Breaking and Age of Legends when the Bore was opened. <br /><br />Thirdly, the wheel of time demands that events take place in a particular order.  We know of a time that the bore was made, then the fight with the Dark One, the patching of the Bore, the introduction of the taint, the Breaking, male-channeler cleansing, and the birth of the Dragon Reborn.  Now what? we can't have the breaking yet because all the other states haven't taken place.  What is more likely is that the Dark One will be sealed completely and that this will introduce a new age of unity in the &quot;power&quot; (whether that is the one power is yet to be seen) that will forget the Bore altogether.  Hence we come full circle.<br /><br />However, the breaking that you refer to is not Physical... not the same breaking.  I would say that it is a correction back to the state the world was in before the Bore (even though it will change the way things are now!)<br /><br />


created: 2001-08-27 19:30:12
subject: <b>Rand = Dragon</b>
body:
Rand IS the Dragon.  That seems clear enough to me from the books.  The fact that he's called &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot; means that he was also the Dragon in a previous life, and now he's back, reborn.  He's not the same person as Lews Therin (they look different, have different personalities) but Rand is Lews Therin reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 12:43:36
subject: <b>Societal Changes</b>
body:
I really don't think that the Asha'man will change nations culture all that much.  Rand's presence has already changed it.  While people may feel terribly uncomfortable around Rand and the Asha'man, no one wanted to gentle them.  Even if it was just out of fear for Rand and his power, and the necessity that he be a channeler, people were grudgingly accepting male channeling, even with the taint.  Now that it is gone, I think that people will begin to accept men channeling just like women channeling.  Over time, anyway.  There might be some upheaval, yes, but hardly enough to break apart a culture or society.  And anyway, with the Last Battle coming up, any cultural breakdown that might occur will be completely swallowed up by other events, if it is anything like the War of Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sei Taer<br />The Basilisk Torm</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 20:07:41
subject: <b>Small correction for Burr</b>
body:
I would just like to point out that it was not only men who went mad during the breaking.  Burr said that the women channelers would be destructive too in their attempts to take down the male channelers, but some female channelers went mad too.  Every male channeler went mad as an effect of the taint (which i personally balieve was adding a little saidar to saidin) but every person who was with lews therin when they sealed up the bore, thats men and women, went mad instantly.  just thought I'd point that out.<br /><br />cya<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the lone philosopher<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 20:27:02
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
there were no women present when the bore was sealed up. It says so in the guide and the strike at shayol ghul(sp?). The women were being priks and refused to help, so LTT with his supporters (hundred companions) went off and did the job anyway.


created: 2001-09-04 16:54:35
subject: <b>Right the fork on...</b>
body:
...Burn me for a sea dog matey that is a good one. Don't have anything to add to it, just loved it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-16 12:07:09
subject: <b>The emphasis on Breaking</b>
body:
The emphasis on the Breaking is marked in WoT as a physical event which Rand will be the leader of. I agree with your theory, not because of what you said but ecause of the emphasis. hardly anything which is taken for granted inWoT so far has not been proved false (&quot;Saidin cannot be cleansed&quot;, &quot;Severing cannot be healed&quot;, &quot;I cannot allow myself to love&quot;, &quot;Verin is a useless biddy&quot;, to name just a few)<br /><br />This extraordinary emphasis is what makes me believe that RJ has something different in mind than new mountains. Societal breaking makes sense. <br /><br />Another sense of the word Breaking could be change. &quot;I bring change&quot; is, after &quot;I shall die&quot; and &quot;Death is...&quot;, Rand's favourite saying. Rand is going to beak the existing order.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 08:38:11
subject: <b>i c where ur goin</b>
body:
ic where ur goin only i flamin think that the bloody female half of the flamin true source will be tainted and the black tower will exceed the bloody white tower because the women will go mad but it will not cause a breaking of the world (or at least not a big one)because the male channelers are stronger then female channelers so they could prevent it from bloody happenin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 18:59:17
subject: <b>The Ability to Channel</b>
body:
Okay, this theory is a sound one, and I believe is very probable.  But something about all this death and rebirth of the forsaken has been gnawing at me.<br /><br />It has been stated several times in several books that women and men who can channel come in two &quot;types&quot; those that are born with &quot;the spark&quot; and those that can be taught.  Now the words &quot;born with&quot; to me indicate that it is something inherent in your Physical make up, be it genetics or whatever, so how can say lanfear or any of the &quot;reborn&quot; forsaken channel in their new bodies unless those were people who were able to channel in the first place?<br /><br />Which really makes the problem of Halima a major problem because it is also stated that women cannot sense let alone channel saidin and vice-versa.  <br /><br />Not to shoot down this theory, really, i like this theory.  It's a sound theory!  But this is something that i have been wondering about for some time now, and i had to throw it out there for discussion somehow.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">boo's heart and soul <br /><br /><br />&quot;A few came close, but they ended up either having 3 nipples or an extra toe or some weird thing like that.&quot;<br />Wulf`gar<br /><br />February 22 ,2003 .. a day that will live on in infamy for years to come</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 19:57:57
subject: <b>I don't think we have enough info yet, simply</b>
body:
Cyndane says specifically, when talking about Alivia: &quot;She was stronger than Cyndane had been before she was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn!&quot; This comment seems to indicate that whatever happened to Lanfear regarding her channeling strength happened DURING her stay. Not before and not after. If that is a correct interpretation, it means we simply don't know enough to explain what happened.<br /><br />Regarding &quot;channeling bodies&quot; and the like, the Halima case seems to make it clear the soul is not only an important part but maybe the sole part hosting channeling ability. We know that the *finns &quot;feed on emotion&quot; or somesuch, as said by Moiraine. My own theory is that the channeling ability somehow can be related to &quot;emotions&quot; since they are both based in the soul. If so, Lanfear's weakening may have been an extreme case of &quot;emotion feeding&quot;, as a punishment for something she did. It's very speculative though and I stand by my initial statement, that we simply not have enough info yet.<br /><br />When Elayne says that she imagines she could channel twice what Nynaeve could unaided, I'm pretty certain the meaning of &quot;imagine&quot; is &quot;think&quot; and not anything else. We don't know what happens when somone is cut out from angreal usage, but I think the Choedan Kal adventure is a hint. When Nynaeve and Rand was cut from the source they became unconscious. I think the same might have happened to Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 00:16:18
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I think that it is more likely that the reduction in strength is directly connected to her reincarnation, either through something the Finn did(if one of her wishes was to regain her channeling ability), or an act of the DO(both Balthamel coming back as a woman and Aginor as a plain looking farmer were given as examples of the DO's evil sense of humor)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 01:20:12
subject: <b>less power in the Power</b>
body:
i think Lanfear/Cyndane's Weakness is meerly because of the Dark One. Her very name now , ' Last Chance ' implies that the Dark One is angry with her. <br /><br /><br />in relation to a soul being the link to channeling, i think that Rand and Halima are prime examples of that. Rand can hold as much saidin as Lews Therin, which makes him a match for any of the Forsaken. Halima is a reincarnated of Bathamael's soul. Think of it as being Reborn only into a body already mature. This also explains why Halima and Dashiva [ i can never remember how to correctly spell their Forsaken names....] dont remember much of their past lives. They dont remember their names, but they remember certain weaves, and other small things, just as Rand doesnt remember being Lews Therin, but he remembers some things of the AoL [ when Sammael sends a messenger, Rand unconciously draws on Lews Therins memory, relating some of the places Sammael comited atrocities. ], but not everything.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-24 03:51:16
subject: <b>Oh, they remember</b>
body:
I'm pretty syre Halima and Osangar have forget NOTHING of their past lives, since it differs from being reborn. They are simply the same soul, never died and buried, but carried on to a new body. Regarding the names, the DO has ORDERED them to forget the old ones. What the DO says, the Chosen does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 06:56:20
subject: <b>Angreal use</b>
body:
In the last four books (I can't remember where exactly), Rand uses the angreal he carries around with him, and thinks that physical contact is not necessary to use it.  Therefore breaking contact with the angreal should not have &quot;damaged&quot; Lanfear's channelling ability.  <br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2001-08-24 11:43:36
subject: <b>Who said anything about physical contact?</b>
body:
In all likelihood you are right and physical contact is not needed. But contact is still needed, and it would almost certainly require concentration of a dignity impossible to maintain with an angry Aes Sedai tackling you into a dimensional port. Her channeling ability or possibly other mental functions should almost certainly be at risk. If something actually happens though, we don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 00:02:55
subject: <b>Nyn and Rand at Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
Nowhere in the passeges does it mention that Rand and Nyn actually were in physical contact with the access keys, and at one point, Osan'gar actually comments that the male ter'angreal is lying on the ground next to al'Thor.  Nyn set the female one at her feet when they began.  So I don't think that physical contact is actually required, just a sense of connection?  Think about the brooches that both Verin and Elayne have.  They pin them on their dresses.  If skin to ter'angreal contact was necessary, why not string them about their necks, or on braclets, or whatever.<br /><br />As to when Moiraine yanked the angreal from Lanfear's grasp, recall what happened when Rand and Asmo were wresteling over the access key in Rhuidian.  They were both drawing thru it, getting only half the power of normal one person per angreal usage.<br /><br />CTC


created: 2001-08-26 06:05:23
subject: <b>On Burr&#180;s comment</b>
body:
Who should have used Nynaeve&#180;s ability since it was completely unknown even in the AoL? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 09:02:16
subject: <b>Moridan healed lnafear/cyndane</b>
body:
Most of the time the most simple answer is the most correct answer to most any puzzle.  <br /><br />1) Nyn figures out how to heal stilled/burned out channelers.<br />2) The healed female channelers are not as strong as before.<br />3) Cyndane is not as strong as before.<br />4)  Moridan says to himself somewhere that it is amazing that these &quot;half-trained girls&quot; have learned something that they thought was impossible in the AOL.  Indicating that he has seen it, or at least knows a little of how it was done.<br />4) Moridan has healed in the past (LTT).<br /><br />It appears to me that the most lickly senario(sp?) is that she was healed by Moridan, so she would be more useful to him.<br /><br />My question is: My go to the trouble?  If she is not that strong, why not just get some black ajah and mind trap her?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 09:45:16
subject: <b>Nope. Moridin hardly did</b>
body:
The facts doesn't support your theory.<br /><br />1. Cyndane talks about how she is stronger after being held by the *finns. While this COULD mean a healing by Moridin in some strange way, it's far from the most probable.<br /><br />2. Only a few yellows are aware of exactly how it was done. The healing of Logain takes place in the middle of LoC while Cyndane comes to the *finns already at the end of the Fires of Heaven. The news would have to travel very fast indeed for anyone being able to do it on Cyndane, when she came back. It's not obvious it would be possible at all.<br /><br />3. Siuan and Leane are much much weaker than before. Cyndane is, while weaker than when Lanfear, still probably the strongest female channeler in Randland. SO if a woman healed Lanfear, it seems reasonable she would be much weaker than she actually is. If, on the other hand, Moridin, a man, did it, why would she be weaker at all? Nothing of that kind has occurred when Flinn healed a few sisters from stilling.<br /><br />4. How could Moridin have learned the weaves? Men can't see the weaves of women, and Logain couldn't create a working weave from what he heard from sisters in Salidar.<br /><br />5. Moridin could know about it through Arangar or some Black sister in the Salidar camp. He has said nothing that indicates he has used it himself.<br /><br />The most probable is that Cyndane got weaker some other way, probably caused by the *finns. There is not enough information to know what though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 15:14:02
subject: <b>WOW, Nice thoghts Yubi</b>
body:
Quote from Yubi above:<br /><br />Cyndane says specifically, when talking about Alivia: &quot;She was stronger than Cyndane had been before she was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn!&quot; This comment seems to indicate that whatever happened to Lanfear regarding her channeling strength happened DURING her stay. <br /><br />Wow, that is really obvious once you pointed it out.  I can't believe I missed that.  It is still possible that she was 'healed' after her stay.  Note: that the length of the stay wasn't specified.  It is conceivable that Slayer could have found and rescued her in less than a day. (He would have had orders for her to go to SG immediately of course.)<br />This might make Lanfear an obvious canditate for having commited Asmocide.<br /><br />About the needing physical contact with the angreal.  I think this is one of many instances where RJ changed his mind halfway through the series.  All of the examples pointed out about channeling through angreals without touching them were after FoH.  In the beginning Moiraine was always very careful with her worn angreal and always touched it to use it.  Later angreals were near indestructible and didn't need to be touched.  You figure it out.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 15:34:08
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Also, the quote about being held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn reveals something else: the Ael and Eel get along quite well, since Lanfear went from the Eel's gate to being held by the Ael.


created: 2001-09-04 02:48:13
subject: <b>Imagining</b>
body:
In the original post of this theory, Three In A Boat says, &quot;Now from various descriptions of how to use an angreal we know that you have to imagine that you can draw more power than you could unaided.&quot; This is not how angreal work. You aren't required to visualize in your head how much more power will be drawn in order for it to happen.<br /><br />In PoD, &quot;The Breaking Storm&quot;, Elayne says to Aviendha, &quot;Aviendha, you know how it feels when you hold as much of saidar as you can? Think of holding almost twice as much. Really think of it. I want you to use it. Please?&quot;<br /><br />Elayne is NOT instructing Aviendha in how to make the angreal work. She is pleading with Aviendha to accept it by tempting her with the amount of the Power she could channel. Aviendha was just considering jumping off a cliff because she felt she had failed Elayne, and Elayne wanted her focusing on something else. To suggest that one must apply an extra mental process to cause an angreal to work to it's potential is incorrect. You only need to concentrate to drawing as if 'through' the device, and that is what happens.<br /><br />As for Cyndane's lesser strength, there is no strong evidence in any direction regarding the cause. The possibilities are that it is part of the DO's punishment for failure, that the 'Finns weakened her because of their dislike for her kind, that she was weakened due to a by-product effect of being in 'Finnland as long or by the method that she got there, etc. <br /><br />I'd think the most probable is that the DO took some of her power to take some of her pride. Remember, she told Rand she'd follow him if only he'd stay with her, and they could challenge the DO together.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 16:52:15
subject: <b>Ahh but you forgot...</b>
body:
...The Eelfinn. The part where Lanfdane is thinking about her former ability she thinks words to the effect that &quot;this girl was more powerful than she had been before her time with the Eelfinn&quot;. It may just be coincidental, but I think her mentioning them in the same frame of mind as her lessened ability is indicative of something.<br /><br />   It may also have to do with entering G'henji (my name for what others call Finnland). The fact that she was channeling as she entered a world where people have at least the ability to make things that circumvent the on power could be important.<br /><br />   Perhaps she was totally burned out and the Finn helped to regain a portion for a price. Besides Nynaeves method only works on stilling not burning out. RJ has stated before that the two are totally different and can't be healed the same way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 09:14:17
subject: <b>Cyndane/Moiraine</b>
body:
Just a fleeting impression, but with the physical description of Cyndane being reminiscent of Moiraine, I wonder if they either switched bodies (akin to the DO bringing back dead Forsaken in other bodies) or somehow were blended, which would average Lanfears abilities with Moiraines, thus explaining the lower ability ratio.


created: 2001-09-05 10:37:18
subject: <b>No. Moiraine/Cyndane doesn't work</b>
body:
1. They don't look much like each other. The only trait they have in common is that they are short. That's it.<br /><br />2. Because of Min's viewings and Egwene's dreams, the general view is that Moiraine is not dead and will come back. Not as Cyndane though.<br /><br />3. Cyndane is still much stronger than Moiraine ever was and it's more or less impossible to describe how they would have been merged.<br /><br />I'm sure there are more, but I can't remember right now. While I acknowledge the possibility that the weakening of strength in Lanfear could somehow have happened simultaneously with something happen&#237;ng to Moiraine, we have no specifics as yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 11:36:00
subject: <b>Contact with *angreal....</b>
body:
I've always imagined that you need to be close to *angreal to use them, but I don't think that it's necessary to have physical contact - unless the user imagines that they need it. <br />Like the fact that anyone creating a fireball would use a throwing action to throw it, not because that's necessary but because they've learnt it that way<br />Therefore if a sister learnt to touch one an *angreal to use it (to be reassured it was there, to imagine using it's power or for whatever reason) then she wouldn't be able to use it without the contact, even thought she wouldn't NEED to, she THINKS she needs to, as with Moiraine.


created: 2001-11-21 13:21:31
subject: <b>Maybe I misunderstood...</b>
body:
It seems that I remember when Cyndane was first introduced to another female Chosen, it was either Graendal or Mesaana, Graendal(or Mesaana) thought to herself that if Cyndane was Lanfear she was much stronger than Lanfear was before. <br /><br />I can't remember which book, was either PoD or WH, gonna look tonight and see if I can find the exact passage.<br /><br />Krane


created: 2002-01-19 19:43:59
subject: <b>Okay, let's think about this...</b>
body:
two things are for sure:1.Lanfear died,otherwise she would not need a new body.2.She is significantly weaker in the power than she was.this could be a result of stilling or burning herself out due to an angreal being taken from her in the middle of her channeling or the DO punishing her or acouple other things. BUT,think about this,if you were an eelfinn, and ,all of a sudden two women pop into your world,grappling for an angreal,and hurling the power every which way,WHAT would be your main concern?Stopping them;in this case,getting rid of the ability to channel.after that...Do you rememberin tSR moiraine saying that questions about the shadow could be painful and deadly when posed to aelfinn? There's some serious dislike there.    So,it is my personal belief that when Lanfear went through the stone doorway with Moiraine that she was imediately stilled,but then executed for being one of the Forsaken.So when the DO brought her back she had her ability to channel, but seriously weakened due to being stilled.Huh,it seems as though I've been holding my breath all through this.Oh well,do with this what you will.


created: 2002-03-05 11:44:30
subject: <b>Lanfear's Treachery</b>
body:
I belive the Dark One lowered her ability to channel because of the threats that she would take on both him and the creator with Rand.


created: 2002-10-03 02:20:02
subject: <b>Not that it's needed..</b>
body:
.. More proof on the subject of whether or not physical contact need be made with an *angreal.<br /><br />Besides the fact that Rand wasn't touching the access key at Aridhol, Rand has made contact with the Choedan Kal without needing to touch it before.  Recall in TGH when Rand encounters the crater where the Choedan Kal is being excavated.  He does make some sort of contact with it.  Although this is kind of strange because I don't believe he was holding saidin.. Actually, I probably need to reread.  &gt;.&lt;;  Ah well.


created: 2002-11-01 15:44:43
subject: <b>A couple thoughts</b>
body:
Though the Moridin-healing-Cyndane theory was generally disregarded, no one mentioned the strongest reason it should have been: Women only get weaker when another woman heals them. (Or more accurately <i>saidar</i>-users) If a <i>saidin</i>-user (like Moridin) does it, the woman is restored to full strength. (It is unknown what effect doing this with the True Power has on channeling strength.)<br /><br />The Chosen have access to these new forms of healing through Aginor and Black Ajah placed in both the Black Tower and Salidar Aes Sedai, so their agents could have learned the weaves even if not strong enough to perform it (like Sorilea). <br /><br />Means and motive taken care of, what about the opportunity? Is the timing correct? Well Cyndane was introduced to us (PoD) after Nynaeve's discovery (LoC) but before Damer Flinn's similar one (WH). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So, basically, the only (permanent) way to lessen someone's ability to channel is introduced just before a character is introduced whose ability to channel has been lessened from earlier. Is that just too obvious to be correct? <br /><br />Put clearly: The Dark One put the soul of a stilled Lanfear in a new body, and had Semirhage (since she is the best at Healing) use Nynaeve's technique to restore Cyndane's ability to channel.<br /><br />Elder Haman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Still out looking for Loial <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-14 15:49:02
subject: <b>Angreal</b>
body:
The idea is a good one but I think I see a couple of holes.  For one,it seems that you do not actually have to be touching or holding an angreal in order to channel the Power through it.  Look at the acess keys to the Choedan Kal, They are simply sitting on the ground next to Rand and Nynaeve, and Rand channeled saidin directly through the male Choedan Kal in Cairhien without touching it or indeed without an access key.  While the keys are actually ter'angreal and the Choedan Kal may be an exceptional case, you see other examples of this to.  Cadsuane probably has some angreal amongst her hair ornaments and yet we only see her remove one once, and that case involves a ter'angreal that detects channeling.  There is no place that I know of that talks about her channeling with an agreal, yet she did not remove her Well to use it so perhaps she wouldn't have to touch an angreal either.  Also, it states when Cyndane finds Alivia that Alivia was stronger than Cyndane was BEFORE the Aelfinn held her.  This seems to imply that she was weakened in some  way while she was being held by the Aelfinn.  It is also apparent from Mat's journey's through the portal that the One Power makes the Aelfinn nervous so perhaps they were able to shroud her power in some way.  Obviously they could overcome it or they wouldn't have been able to hold her captive in the first place.<br />


created: 2003-03-18 12:22:38
subject: <b>Possible connection to stilling and Healing</b>
body:
Possibly this subject connects with the reason why when a woman is stilled and then healed she is weaker in the Power than before-perhaps she is partially burned out as well somewhere between the stilling and the Healing.  It is likely that when we find the answer to one question we will find the answer to the other.


created: 2005-12-18 11:59:02
subject: <b>Pattern</b>
body:
The finn seem to draw from the pattern itself, when mat enters the gateway in tear the finn speak of the &quot;strain&quot;, and how they hadn't been near it in so long.  I believe this was a reference to Mat's power as a ta'avern, the strain on the pattern that he creates.  This suggests that they feed or drew upon it, other people who come through supply minimum amounts, a ta'vern draws threads to itself.  When Moirane and Lanfear came through channeling the Finn drained a portion of their power as they drew from their threads, Lanfear was weakened, and Moraine was severed by the Finn.  Moraine was driven into a coma by the rapid loss of power.  Thus she is still with the Finns, Lanfear requested to leave, but didn't set any conditions, so the Finn stripped her of her beauty.  Does Moraine now have Lanfear's old body? I don't know.


created: 2001-08-23 18:38:18
subject: <b>He's not Tam</b>
body:
I know that this is obvious already, but this is proof he's not Tam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Graxxelploi<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Big Evil Nasty Bad Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 20:03:01
subject:
<b>Only a Taimandred theorist could believe that...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Otherwise one thinks Mat should have recognized Tam al'Thor...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-23 20:18:49
subject: <b>I completely agree with this theory, but, so what?</b>
body:
I mean, who cares if Jain Farstrider was malkiery or not? I agree with your evidence and think that he is in fact Malkiery, but you didn't mention any reason why this is the least bit important. (but there's always a chance huh?) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-24 02:12:36
subject: <b>Not important?</b>
body:
I seem to remember an intense debate raging on this topic, but maybe that's just me. I know it's not a major thing but it does open up interesing possibilities, as Burr said, and I argued with my friend over it many a time. I just wanted to clarify it. The more small things clarified, the more we can concentrate on the bigger issues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 04:24:43
subject: <b>Be careful!</b>
body:
All of you, who are trying to mock author of this this theory.<br /><br />I may become her Warder soon and if you harm her I'll rip your guts off. ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-24 06:05:23
subject: <b>A Little addition</b>
body:
In EotW it is mentioned that when Malkier was overrun and<br />Lan were sent to Fal Moran he had a bodyguard of twenty<br />men.. Five survived... I wouldn't be too surprised if <br />Jain Farstrider were one of them <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-24 10:24:35
subject: <b>Nice idea, Paraan...</b>
body:
...but it's gotta be wrong.<br /><br />In NS doesn't it say that the malkeri travelling with Lan (can't remember his name, been a while) is the last of the body guards and he got killed by the Black ajah.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Dai Lau  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-25 04:08:07
subject: <b>Oh thank you Vanin!</b>
body:
Isn't it wonderful to know I can inspire such loyalty? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />PS You have just increased &quot;probably accept if(etc.)&quot; to &quot;will accept if (etc.)&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-25 05:53:25
subject: <b>great!</b>
body:
I have a special thing for Malkieri, and, I must admit for Jain Farstrider. This confirms all that I have ever hoped to be true. And it is no great surprise that a woman posted it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-25 19:27:15
subject: <b>Thumbs down <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This theory is all wrong.  Because RJ doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to his books.  They were actually written by underpants gnomes, using you-don't-want-to-know.  But you are probably already making very good guesses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 19:44:31
subject: <b>Interesting possibilities</b>
body:
This is interesting, especially as we seem to have met Farstrider now (I'm willing to accept the idea that Jaim is the beggar/the guy Mat has met, I just want to see some proof -- anyone got any handy?).  <br />Dai Lau -- NS takes place after the Aiel Wars.  If Farstrider disappeared then, Lan might consider him dead and say that Bukama is his last living bodyguard. <br />Burr -- I was going to say that other Malkieri haven't managed to persuade Lan to raise the Golden Crane (which I believe he WILL do, eventually), but then I realized that if Jaim was one of his bodyguards, and is still alive, he's probably the ONLY person alive who could persuade Lan to do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 21:17:45
subject: <b>Jains ID revealed</b>
body:
I believe that Tam is J.F. because they are both expert swordsmen, and Tam appeared in Emonds Field at the end of the war, right when J.F. dissapeared, considering that Tam has never been out of Emonds field, and that no one has seen J.F. then this is a logical conclusion.


created: 2001-08-30 05:53:16
subject: <b>Huh!</b>
body:
I thought JF was the man who went to Stedding Shangtai at the end of the Aiel War, who Loial mentioned in tEotW. So he can't be Tam as Tam was at this point returning to the 2R with Rand<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 02:07:38
subject: <b>Jain NOT Tam</b>
body:
Tam Al'Thor was the second captain of the Illianer Companions during the Aiel War, and was known by the name Al'Thor for several years at least leading up to then. Jain Farstrider's whereabouts were most certainly known during and the early part of the Aiel War, for it to become common knowledge among Malkieri folk that he disappeared during that war.<br /><br />So for one person to be supposedly both a borderland blight-fighter and an Andoran serving with Illian, just doesn't work.<br /><br />Then there is the more obvious, if we can all agree that Noal Charin = Jain Charin AKA Farstrider. Tam and the old man Noal share no similarity of appearance, and Mat would notice if there were any.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 17:05:51
subject: <b>Well done...</b>
body:
...And if the oft purpetuated idea of Noal being Farstrider under a psuedonym then that leads to some niftyness to be reconned with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 17:14:55
subject: <b>noted Malkieri writer and traveler</b>
body:
but it never said that Jain farstrider was the Malkieri.  It can be inferred, but it could also be interpreted to be the writer of the book was a well known Malkieri writer and traveler.  The comment doesn't necessarily mean Jain Farstrider is Malkieri.<br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-05-20 09:16:41
subject: <b>Thought so..</b>
body:
I always assumed this was meant to be a given. I suppose it could be a way to mislead us but why bother.<br /><br />By the way, Tam didn't appear in Emond's Field. He <i>returned</i> to Emond's field with Kari after the Aiel War.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-02 22:10:52
subject: <b>I obey, My king</b>
body:
If J. Farstrider turns out to be Noal maybe the sight of his king (Lan) will break him free of the compulsion he might be under. I know a lot of maybes.


created: 2007-01-27 03:52:34
subject: <b>Autobiography</b>
body:
The Gloss. just say's it was written by a Malkieri, not that the person that wrote it was in fact Jain himself.


created: 2001-08-24 14:04:51
subject: <b>Hey</b>
body:
Hey! Somebody actucally read one of my theories and thought it was true.<br /><br />Well thanx for mentioning me, I wish I could've done as good a job as you.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-24 17:05:53
subject: <b>Not really sure what your theory is exactly</b>
body:
But you're forgetting that objects of FOCUS are not necessaily needed to do the things you described.  For example the eavesdropping weave, Moiraine learned it using a stone, she mentions that when she first learned it that she thought the stone had Power.  Anyway, Elayne and Nynaeve learned a weave for eavesdropping from Moggy without the need for the stone, or any FOCUS.  <br /><br />Someone metions that you can tell who taught an Aes Sedai to throw a fireball by the way they throw their arm.  It used to be that that wasn't necessary, and the Wise Ones don't all have hand gestures for similar weaves.  Anyway, my point is that a FOCUS isn't needed, unless that was the way the person learned to do the weave in the first place.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 20:09:55
subject: <b>Angreals and Callandor</b>
body:
So this theory is saying that angreals and sa'angreals have no power of their own, and are merely focusing tools? Then how can one angreal be stronger than another?<br /><br />For example, the bracelet and rings are a stronger angreal than Graendal's gold ring. By your theory they should have the same effect, unless the degree of focusing varies from person to person. But Elayne tries several from the Ebou Dar cache and finds them all of different strengths. It cannot be merely psychological on her part, because she had no idea of their relative strengths and cannot have been expected to think one would be stronger than another.<br /><br />Also, Callandor - Cadsuane says that it lacks the buffer against drawing too much of the Power that other sa'/angreals have. If sa'/angreals have no power in themselves then they could not have such a buffer, as only the degree of concentration of the user would affect it.<br /><br />Sorry. I don't buy it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 23:43:48
subject: <b>They don't hold power</b>
body:
It is stated more than once in the books and angrael and sa'angrael do not hold power, only provide a focus to draw  more power than otherwise.  A good analogy I think is glasses, and glasses do not hold liquid until someone draws some into them, and then uses it.  The larger the glass, the more liquid, so some angrael can draw more power.  But they are not intrinsically holding power until the user draws it.  I Think Callandor is like a broken glass, the person can draw power but it will leak and cause problems.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 00:03:41
subject: <b>Angreal=computers (well, kind of..)</b>
body:
Dragonforever seems to have misread the text of the theory.<br /><br />The theory in a nutshell is that angreal and sa'angreal _aren't_ just focuses, they're big mo-fo's that have had a proportionate amount of OP used in their creation. They are used to focus OP, but also as a 'buffer' (RJ's words from the books).<br /><br />Think of using a computer to design a micro-chip.. using a big (powerful) computer means you can design more complicated chip =&gt; even more powerful chips in the future.<br />angreal and sa'angreal are the same in that they have been designed to allow greater use in the future, and I'd gues that the more OP is used in their creation, the more powerful they're going to be. Think of the Choedan Kal- they required heaps of work and a long time to create, compared with Elayne's ter'angreal.<br />Saying that all angreals are focus' and can only draw the same amount of power is like saying that all computers are the same because they're chips in a box.<br /><br />I like the theory precisely because it is more developed than kidblondeel's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 19:49:03
subject: <b>Focus</b>
body:
I thought that every user of the OP was already focused, with the flame/void stuff or the female variant, the rosebud.  <br />I do like the lens analogy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 04:00:32
subject: <b>Angreal</b>
body:
I believe that RJ is slowly been trying to turn us to the idea of magnifying the power, or focusing it rather than angreal being used to allow the user to contain more of the power.<br /><br />The early books call angreal objects that help users of the OP take in and use more of the OP than they would normally be able to do.<br /><br />Whereas the later books though still retaining some of the initial understanding are moving further towards the magnification idea.<br /><br />It's kind've like in TFOH and LOC where Rands weird memories and strange sayings and all that junk slowly manifest into LTT, Crazy voice stuck in Rands head and almost constantly pitying himself and ranting about vengance and such.<br /><br />By book 10 or 11, Elayne and Egwene will be making Angreal, using Moiraines Blue Stone/staff trick as the basis.  Trust me on this.  It's the only thing even remotely similar to Angreal in all 9 books that might have anything to do with making or using the damn things.<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-04 17:10:40
subject: <b>Well umm....</b>
body:
...If you're talking about the same theory I think you're responding there is a question that I raised that I'd still like to see addressed.<br /><br />   If the stick/staff has no power and uses no power then why did Moiraine have to discard it when she used it in the ways. First off the ways are tainted with Saidin, and secondly that staff isn't supposed to be using the One Power. So what's the deal?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 15:53:01
subject: <b>uh...</b>
body:
huh?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 14:23:57
subject: <b>Was Sammael really dead THEN?</b>
body:
I admit I am not fully certain in this question, with many memories from the books rather blurry. Still, what do you mean with &quot;release of the Gholam&quot;. Has it somehow been imprisoned (not counting his stay in some stasis box ) AFTER arriving at Ebou Dar? Sammael said to Carradin something about sending some sort of help. There was also a quote about Sammael finding a Stasis box (wasn't there?). And finally, the Gholam had arrived to Ebou Dar plenty of time before the demise of Sammael (who died at the end of CoS). We haven't seen the Gholam actually recieve any orders since then, have we? What am I missing that would make Sammael so impossible as the Gholam master (well, former, but still the latest one who ordered it).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 14:44:09
subject: <b>Still Sammy</b>
body:
I'm inclined to think it was Sammael too.  Sammael showed an interest the other two boys (remember, he sent Melhindra to kill Mat).  Demandred has not shown any such hostility towards Mat or Perrin.  There is also the fact that the gholam must have been imprisoned, otherwise why wouldn't there be any mention of it before now?  Sammael is the only one of the male Forsaken who we know had found a stasis box, so he still seems the most likely candidate.  As for Sammael being dead, well, the gholam is still after Mat and the women, so maybe it is just following Sammy's old orders.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 15:16:02
subject: <b>Redid the comments</b>
body:
Help me out wotmaniacs. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 15:59:37
subject: <b>Sammael</b>
body:
As soon as the gholam appeared I assumed it was sent by Sammy.  I didn't know that there was any question about it.  Remember, right before it showed up, Sammy promised to send something to his DF searchs to deal with the aes sedai.


created: 2001-08-24 18:05:34
subject: <b>Sammael....</b>
body:
the Gholam probably is unaware of Sammael's untimely demise. He was most like sent through a Gateway to Ebou Dari with orders to find/kill Elayne, Aveindha, and Mat, and try to pick up any angreal he found. The gholam most likely contacted Sammael, or just sent local Friends of the Dark with them to Illian. When Rand became King of Illian, Ebou Dari was already under Seanchan control, so there wouldnt be much news from outside for local people. <br /><br /><br />Sammael is the one who found a stasis box. Its probably in CoS or LoC somewhere. Graendal comes to visit him, and notices all these different AoL items, including a highly illegal and violent game. Which meant the stasis box had belonged to a Friend of the Dark, which means he would have had acces to a gholam. i assume. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-24 18:13:25
subject: <b>Check the common victims</b>
body:
Somebody (I am too lazy and JUST got done rereading Lord of Chaos so I feel like I ran a marathon) check the common victims for a link to Sammael.  Weren't Barthanes and Fel killed by the Gholam.  Anyone else?  Do they fit with the Sammael-as-Gholam-master theory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Jackdaw Fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Sexy/Evil WolfSister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Bearded One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 18:37:30
subject: <b>Fel is a wildcard</b>
body:
Fel was discovering the true nature of the Wheel of Time.  His murder makes it seem more likely that Dark's pre-eminent philosopher and master <i>sha'rah</i> player, Ishamael aka Moridin sent him.  This is a tough one, really throws in a monkeywrench.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 20:38:00
subject: <b>Sammael! Sammael! Sammael!</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />LoC, chapter 23 &quot;To Understand a Message&quot;. Scene: Graendal meets Sammael in Illian.<br />Graendal: &quot;One might think you had looted a museum, Sammael.&quot;<br />Sammael: &quot;Only a stasis-box&quot;.<br />...<br />Graendal: 'The one I found had rubbish.'<br />Sammael: &quot;How sad for you.&quot;<br />Gr (thoughts): &quot;He /had/ found something more than playthings and pretties.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />aCoS, chapter 15 &quot;Insects&quot;. Scene: Ebou Dar. Carridin says &quot;Great Master, I saw Mat Cauthon.&quot;<br />...<br />Sammael thinks, then says &quot;Your search [for angreal cache] is the most important thing, the /only/ thing, as far as you are concerned. Cauthon's death would be convenient, certainly, but not if it draws attention here. If it appears attention is already here, should he take an interest in your search, then he dies, but otherwise, he can wait.&quot;<br />...<br />Carridin says &quot;Great Master, there are witches, Aes Sedai...&quot;<br />Sammael says &quot;I will send you... someone... to deal with these /Aes Sedai/. I almost wish I could see their faces.&quot;<br />&lt;/<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&gt;<br />The only things that nearly wasted the AS were the gholam, and Black Ajah (Falion and Ispan).<br />The only thing that nearly wasted Mat was the gholam (and Tylin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />So either Sammael found and sent the gholam at Mat/El/Ny, or he knows who did and gave the impression it was him in order to frighten Carridin, whom he considers as important as a bug. I know which one I think it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 20:49:59
subject: <b>Gholam was probably in stasis</b>
body:
The passage in POD in which the gholam appears, seems to indicate that the gholam was probably in a stasis box. Three lines in particular stand out. &quot;The gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner, yet so much of what it recalled was fogged and dim.&quot; &quot;The world had changed, as it seemed, in the blink of an eye.&quot; Another line later: &quot;But the gholam had not changed.&quot; The first quote seems to indicate that the gholam has recently just been released from what amounts to a 3000+ year slumber. My mind is a little foggy and dim after just eight hours of sleep so one can only imagine the feeling after 3000 years. The second two quotes, in particular, say to me that from the gholam's perspective time stood still. The only place that we know of where time stands still is in a stasis box. The only person that we know of to have found a stasis box is Sammael. It is unlikely that Sammael would give up control of the most dangerous weapon of all to any one, short of a direct order from the DO.


created: 2001-08-26 15:12:54
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
Of course, we're assuming there is only one gholam.<br />Let's look at it:<br />   Gholam appears for a prolonged length of time in Ebou Dar, sent to capture angreal, and to kill Aes Sedai and Mat. This one is almost certainly sent by Sammael.<br />   On other side of continent, Gholam attacks kill first Barthanes and then, -a year? more?- later, a second kills Fel, in the same city.<br /><br />Barthanes: involved with darkfriends, Fain, the dagger, the Horn: as are Lanfear and Ishamael. Not involved with Sammael.<br />Fel: involved with the philosophical basis of a plan to defeat the shadow. Now, I could be wrong, but Sammael - an athlete and general - doesn't strike me as a man to be overly concerned with the philosophical side of things.<br />Moridin/Ishamael, on the other hand, a former profesional philosopher and the Dark One's Head of Long-Term Strategy, does.<br />   This leads to to believe that Moridin/Ishamael is the most likely commander of the Cairhien gholam. From the perspectives we have of both Moridin and the gholam in Ebou Dar, it seems unlikely that Moridin is commanding that one. Consequently, it is not likely that they are the same: totally different targets and probable employers.


created: 2001-08-27 12:36:45
subject: <b>Good point</b>
body:
It <i>is</i> quite possible that we are dealing with two different creatures here, and as such it would also seem that they have two different masters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 04:41:57
subject: <b>Number of Gholam</b>
body:
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that there were only six gholam created, three men and three women. For the life of me I can't remember where I read that though. Although if I remember correctly, that means that there were only six gholam that were ever created. We know that at least one of the six has survived to this day and age and we are quite certain that it did so through the use of a stasis box. The question that remains is, did the gholam need the stasis box to survive since the AOL or are the gholams immortal? Knowing how difficult they are to kill, if they are immortal then it is more than likely that the majority of them are still out there somewhere. However, if they do eventually grow old and die, and I think that they do, then what are the odds of more than one finding their way to a stasis box, surviving over 3000 years and being found by one of the forsaken. Although knowing RJ and his penchant for balance, there is probably a female gholam out there we have not yet met.


created: 2001-08-28 13:29:49
subject: <b>a response to Salmoneus and maxell1701</b>
body:
First off, I don't think that Barthanes was killed by a Gholam, mainly because if there had been one there wouldn't it have more likely been sent after someone like Rand or Verin?  It seems likely that Trollocs killed him, the scene after his murder is similar to the prison in Fal Dara after Fain escapes.  Other than that I agree with the fact that it appears that Sammael is an unlikely canidate to have ordered Fel's death, but perhaps the DO knew he had a Gholam and ordered him to send it at Fel first and then later Sammael sent it to Ebou Dar.<br /><br />To maxell1701, you're right about the number of Gholams but I'm not so sure about their mortality.  They feed on blood and have no bone structure and are resistant to the OP.  There doesn't appear to be any evidence that they are mortal, other than there aren't many running around, unless they're hiding really well.  Although it is hard to kill them, it seems likely that most of them were killed during the Breaking, otherwise someone would surely know of them, and since Aes Sedai are not aware of their existance it's pretty safe to say that no one is.  I doubt there are more than two that have survived, but I think there is only the one.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 15:36:31
subject: <b>Hi Everybody!</b>
body:
I would just like to point out that not only did sammael say that it would be a RISK that a gholam may pop out of a box (in an attempt to taunt graendal) but also that as bad ash says, its a distinct possibility that gholam doesn't know sammy's .  So there.  I don't know if any of this was already posted because i have not yet read the comments.  sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />sir- off at smileys<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 15:54:33
subject: <b>I'm an Idiot!</b>
body:
I just submitted a post on this blackboard, and suddenly felt compelled to state that.....barthanes and fel were most likely not killed by any form of gholam.  I say this because while Barthanes and fel were albeit killed in an extremely violent manner, i dont believe they had the trademark of a gholam-killing.  That trademark is......a less corpse.  Gholam feed off , and from what we've seen drink the  from those that they are assigned to kill, or from those that they kill on their own.  If Barthanes and fel were killed by a gholam it would have drinken their ,  This leads me to believe that they were killed by someone else [possably ishy/moridin himself wielding the true power(he did that as ishy too)].<br /><br />I would also like to point out that just about anyone could be a gholam including a supporting character, due to the fact that there is no obvious sign that what you are looking at is a gholam (unless it happens to have a fox imprint burned into it).  sincerely,<br /> metallica<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />man<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 06:54:06
subject: <b>To metallica-man2</b>
body:
There is no real proof that the gholam killed Barthanes. All we know of his death is that his servants found him torn to pieces in his bedchamber with his head stuck on a pike over the fire place. Herid Fel though, is another matter altogether. RJ states in the epilogue of LoC that the gholam killed Fel. This is one of those rare times that RJ comes out and leaves absolutely no doubt as to what has happened. Of course we are not entirely sure who sent the gholam, I guess we can't expect him to tell us everything.


created: 2001-08-29 20:00:56
subject: <b>Where was Fain?</b>
body:
Where was Fain when Barthanes was killed?<br /><br />A gruesome killing of someone who was a tool of the DO is something that Fain seemed to like (eg crucifying Myrddraal), so Barthanes is not necessarily a gholam victim.<br />That's still not to say that there aren't 2 gholam, especially as there isn't conclusive proof that gholam can't be travelled to somewhere else (though unlikely, given their nature).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-30 10:17:22
subject: <b>Osan'gar!</b>
body:
I thought this was a no-brainer!  Aginor created the Gholam . . . the Gholam first appears when it kills Herid Fel, in LOC, which is right around the time that Os'Angar &amp; Aran'gar appear . . . which we all know are Aginor &amp; Balthamel, respectively.  <br /><br />I never speculated that it would be anyone else . . .


created: 2001-09-01 18:36:46
subject: <b>it was Sammael.....</b>
body:
Read all the meetings between Sammael and Graendal- I think the particular one is during one of the little visits to the Shaido Wise Ones, but I'm not certain.  Anyway, in one of them, Sammael mentions finding two stasis boxes- one with all the nice stuff inside, and another that nearly god him killed.  That would be the gholam; I'm almost certain.  You also have to remember was that Sammael was not necessarily controlling the gholam (I think he may have been taking orders from both Sammael and Moridin), and that Sammael did not necessarily give the orders shortly before the attack.  They could've been given weeks in advance and the gholam simply wanted the element of surprise, or some such.


created: 2001-09-02 13:34:23
subject: <b>Responding to various</b>
body:
Fel we know was killed by a gholam - not only is there the bit referred to earlier where this is stated, but I seem to recall that the killer slipped under the door -liquid gholam.<br />I admit that Barthanes may not be a gholam attack, it could just be trollocs or Fain, but i think he was a gholam-kill. Fel and Barthanes both died in the same gruesome way in the same building. This suggests it was by the same killer.<br /><br />On the subject of the likelyhood ofgholam-survival: i think gholam are immortal, so they could still be wondering around. But, despite being hard to kill, not many would still be active, since while they may not have been killed, having a mountain dropped on their heads or suchlike would certainly incapacitate them for a few millenia.<br />Also, there could be more than one in a stasis box, without it being a great coincidence: when packing a stasis-box, the Dark Side is likely to have stuffed in a few of their ultimate killers.


created: 2001-09-04 17:23:06
subject: <b>I like it a bit.</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that Sammy L being dead may not be current knowledge to the Golum er I mean Gholam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 14:58:25
subject: <b>It was Sammael</b>
body:
Graendal's thoughts of Sammael finding something of interest in that stasis box, not to mention Sammael sending Carridin &quot;someone&quot; to help him take care of the women suggest that he was the sender of the Gholam.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-06 03:58:57
subject: <b>Comment for you Jim</b>
body:
One of your points is that the Aes Sedai are not aware of Gholams,<br />how do you suppose they could:<br />1 a gholam look just like a normal person<br />2 any Aes Sedai who managed to find out likely had a hard time<br />just getting away vith her newfound knowledge........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-10 00:46:01
subject: <b>Well... why a Forsaken?</b>
body:
There is one other person around who _might_ have at somepoint had access to a stasis box.  Padan Fain.  This is purely unsubstansiated, off-the-top-if-my-head-crap, but who knows?  Padan Fain wants the women dead, because the are _close_to_Rand.  Especially Elayne.  He wants to hurt Rand badly.  He doesn't want to kill Al'Thor.  He wants to kill every one he loves, and then kill some of them infront of him, then burn down his village, then... well, you get the idea.  Now, the only question is, did Padan Fain have access to a stasis box?  Who knows!  He was very preoccupied with hunting for the daggar... could there have been a stasis box in the Tower, and they thought it was just another Ter'Angreal?  Again, who knows?  Not I.  Just a Theory.<br /><br />Lancelot


created: 2001-12-30 19:49:36
subject: <b>It was sammael</b>
body:
It was Sammael who released the Gholam he told Graendal that he found a stasis box and by what was in it it belonged to darkfreind all this happened in LoC and at the end of the book Herid fel is the frist person to be killed by the Gholam, and Sammie is not dead yet then there is the fact that the Gholam is in Ebou dar at the same Nynaeve and Elayne are and looking for the same thing and Sammael told Graendal that he was looking for a &quot;cache of angreal&quot; and I'm more than willing to bet that his &quot;cache&quot; is the same one with the bowl of winds. <br /><br />so that is why I think it was Sammie who Released the Gholam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*bows* By your leave, mother, I will stand, the watch is not done.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 19:54:38
subject: <b>Good Idea but...</b>
body:
Good theory but some mistakes. First Sammy was never balefired, the ail chick was and when Rand looked Sam was gone, suposedly killed by mashadar. So he could still be alive. Second, you didn;t include Halima in your male catagory. Though physicly female she still channels Sai Din, the gholam can probably tell the difference between Sai Din and Sai Dar. So he would think she was disguised or somthing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 18:00:15
subject: <b>Oh...NO!!!</b>
body:
RJ has CLEARLY STATED THAT, to use the exact words, &quot;Sammael is toast. Mashadar killed him.&quot; This is not a point to be debated, when RJ so clearly states something, it is that way. However, he may(most likely) be resurrected by the DO, and probably be in a mindtrap under control of Moridin/Ishy/Coolest character EVER! And well...I believe Moridin has control of one gholam and sammy *had* control over one gholam and ordered it to find a cache of angreals and to kill Elayne, Avi and Mat. The gholam followed these orders even after Sammys death(or he may not know about it...).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 19:53:05
subject: <b>Moridin has a stasis box</b>
body:
Look, Moridin must have access to a stasis box. See what he uses: Fan cloth, heart boxes, a original sha'rah game and, most likely, there was a gholam in there. Most likely, it buried around Shayol Ghul, waiting for Ishamael to be reborn as Moridin. This guy is a real long-term planner, you know. One created to kill male channelers, most likely a female. He knew the Dragon would be male so why bury a gholam to kill Aes Sedai. Ishamael set up the Black Ajah for that line of work.


created: 2002-11-12 04:03:34
subject: <b>Sammael sent it.</b>
body:
In COS Sammael tells Carridin (in Ebou Dar) that he would send him &quot;someone&quot; to deal with Elayne and the Aes Sedai. He goes on to muse that he &quot;wished he could see the look on their faces&quot; hinting that they cannot stop this assassin. Later, the gholam attacks Mat and Elayne in Ebou Dar, and even says he has orders to kill Elayne. This is a no-brainer. It will be interesting to see if another Forsaken regains control of the gholam, and gives it new commands concerning Mat or other heroes.


created: 2003-01-31 10:31:59
subject:
<b>I most vehemently agree<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />*NM*</b>

body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />I love deadlines. I like the &quot;whooshing&quot; sound they make as they pass by.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br />Ok! So I made my own cheap signature! Big Deal!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-12 10:15:36
subject: <b>gholam biz</b>
body:
i always thought that sammael had found the stasis box, released the gholam and done whatever else nonsense, and then was iced by rand...? so now the gholam is a loose cannon, unless someone collars it, which means it can pop up all over and create cool plot happenings, like um, killing everyone except mat, or being defeated in new ways which would be cool too...could a random forsaken just take control of a gholam?


created: 2004-03-09 19:08:22
subject: <b>stasis box?</b>
body:
i dont think the gholam ever got put in the stasis box at all. if you remember from i'm pretty sure PoD, when the seanchan questioner guy questions that military dude, the dude notices a scar on his face. could it be the scar from mat's medallion? i dont know it's been a while since i read through it. anyway, they also say his descendents must have come with luthair across the aryth ocean. i believe the gholam/seanchan questioner guy came across himself and has been under multiple identities since then, living undercover and waiting for more orders from the DO.<br />just a thought, tell me what you think


created: 2005-11-14 14:28:11
subject: <b>Gholam can't Travel</b>
body:
Well, we know the Gholam can't Travel, right?  At least, I'm pretty sure that it's Shadowspawn.  And we learned from Rand/Lews Therin that Shadowspawn can't survive going through a gateway, right?  So if it wants fast travel it has to use the Ways.<br />Hmmm, maybe that's how they'll kill it.


created: 2001-08-24 18:56:51
subject: <b>nice reading</b>
body:
...and it works...it would be a great literary device to have Rand have to submit to the one thing that he fears most (letting LTT take over) as being the only way that he could possibly win


created: 2001-08-24 20:49:44
subject: <b>What is wrong with you people????</b>
body:
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with the prophecies meaning different things than the Impression that they give, but WHY IN THE *BLEEP* DO PEOPLE CONSTANTLY SAY THAT RAND IS NOT THE DRAGON??????? <br />Let's get one thing straight: The Dragon is the NAME of the soul sent to save mankind in every (?) age. It is a NAME. Although LTT was the first to use that name, the soul is the same. So, really, LTT was the Dragon Reborn as well, right? He was not the first saviour, so why is he the one regarded to come again? I'll tell you why:<br />Because he is'nt.<br />Did people regard LTT as the *insert previous name that the saviour used* Reborn? No. And yet was the Age 1 saviour in LTT's head? Don't know. What we do know, though, is that the body was not the same, and LTT's body is not Rand's body.<br />Rand is not LTT reborn, he is the Saviour reborn. Rand's body looks nothing like LTT's, and yet one of the prophecies is that the Dragon will hold Callendor. LTT was not in his head at that time, so LTT was not there, but the same spirit that hadbeen in LTT was there, follow? Rand is his own person, he IS NOT LTT!!!<br />sheesh....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-25 18:43:38
subject: <b>I agree....</b>
body:
i is stupid to say Rand is meerly a vessel of Lews Therin Reborn. It is my belief that the Dragon Soul is Reborn twice every cycle of the wheel. One to partially seal over the Bore that was made in its age [ Lews Therin ], and the other to make the Seal on the Bore as good as if the Creator had done so [ Rand Al'Thor ]. By the time a hole is Bore'd in the D0's prison again, everyone has forgotten about the Dragon, but his soul is reborn, and he takes that as his name. <br /><br />To add; to say Rand will not die is perposterous. of COURSE he's going to die. ' Everyone Dies ' -Jaster Mereel. Its simply a matter of WHEN and HOW. <br />And; there WAS a Viewing/Fortelling of Rand dieing. It was the VERY FIRST ONE ever. When Min meets Rand in Baerlon, she sees three women over his burial pyre[sp?]. Which is most likely a referance to him outliving his wifes. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />firm believer that Galad should be run through by a pike-man


created: 2001-08-26 04:39:38
subject: <b>Min's veiwing</b>
body:
Everyone that has read this seems to have forgotten one of Min's veiwngs from the very first book.  3 Women around a funeral pyre.  Why would she something like that around Rand unless he was going to die.  After she is NEVER wrong in thiese things<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 16:00:33
subject: <b>Two questions</b>
body:
So where is the twisty turny bit in &quot;he will be born on dragonmount&quot; or something like that?<br />Will the next dragon be the vessel for Rand al'Thor?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mutch<br />&quot;Do onto others before they do onto you&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 18:51:04
subject: <b>A point and a ?</b>
body:
As for Min's viewing of the funeral pyre, that is not a gaurantee of death. Alexander the Great, after recieving a serious wound, had a funeral pyre built and rode it in front of his troops, popping up to inspire them. Rand could use such a trick to convince his enemies he is dead in order to move more freely. <br /><br />But what about Mins' viewing of Alivia &quot;helping Rand to die&quot;? Seems like that one is more clean cut.


created: 2001-08-27 05:48:37
subject: <b>I'm with green gaidin</b>
body:
What about Lews Therin's &quot;Third Destroyer&quot;? This is i am assuming the Dragon character from the age before Lews Therin. If he were merely to take over each incarnation then there would not be the third destroyer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 08:30:40
subject: <b>That darn wound</b>
body:
This is a nice and well thought-out theory, and I do agree with you that Lews-Therin and Rand are not the same person. But I think you left out one important detail in your theory, the wound on Rand's side. I don't think RJ would put so much emphasis on the wound if it would not be important in the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 10:33:38
subject: <b>What the...?</b>
body:
Am I the only one who doesn't understand how these theories keep coming in from farther and farther out in left field?<br /><br />Don't forget:<br /><br />1. The Aiel call themselves the Dragon's &quot;Blood&quot;<br />2. &quot;His blood will be shed on the rocks of Shayol Ghul&quot;<br /><br />We don't even know he'll die - he might, but then again, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.  I'm not arguing for the Aiel theory, but I'm also not going to waste a lot of time extrapolating two or three lines that people twist like it were some religious work from the real world.  Anything could happen.  I agree it's not as simple as some people think, but these theories should be better grounded in the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 19:56:05
subject: <b>Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
Well let's see, Mat Died and is still walking around.<br />Alot of the forsaken died and are walking around.<br />I think Rand ran will lose the first of the last battles, his death will be faked. There will be a funeral for him.<br />Then he will strike back hard.


created: 2001-09-04 18:14:09
subject: <b>Well you hit the nail on the head...</b>
body:
...At the very beginning of your theory. You say that prophecy is rarely interpretted in the literal sense at the end of the story. So if RJ were to have the prophecies result in Rand ACTUALLY dying then he'd be going counter to the typical protocol on such a scenario.<br /><br />   Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% certain that Rand will die, but I think that it'd be pretty ballzy on RJ's part if he killed Rand and left him dead. When the Aelfinn told Rand that he must die to live they may not have meant what he thought. They may have been referring to the Dragon. If the Dragon dies at Shayol Ghul then he will live again when the world has need of him. SO the Dragon Lives on by Rand dying. There ya go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 08:48:19
subject:
<b>Clearing the Fog, along with adding in things I saw.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Ok, ok, ok....You all gave me some more information to think on and thus some things to clear up in the meaning of my little rambling. I'm sorry about the semi-vagueness of it when I posted it, but I was rather sleepy. Well, anyways...<br /><br />       1. In responce to what Burr said, I don't have a clue<br />          to the ending of the series, but I don't think <br />          that he'll just let it trickle out like that, <br />          because first it would make a lot of people mad, <br />          and more importantly I don't think he would allow<br />          himself to do that, given the caliber of writer<br />          he is, but your guess is as good as mine.<br /><br />       2. Secondly, I have a point I would like to <br />          reinterate. I'm sorry if it makes me come off <br />          sounding like a newbie in need of a good flaming, <br />          but I don't think what I'm saying is getting <br />          across. Rand is not the Dragon. Lews Therin is <br />          the Dragon, not Rand. Even if you believe that <br />          Rand is the Dragon REBORN, which is questionable, <br />          then it stands to reason that Rand is not the <br />          Dragon, strictly speaking, since we witness both<br />          personalities and they are obviously different. <br />          As to the questionablity of him being the Dragon, <br />          I think I went over it well enough in the <br />          original, but if you want me to expound on it, or <br />          clarify just post it and I'll do my best.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />       3. As to the wound in Rand's side or Min's reading of<br />          Alivia &quot;helping him die&quot;, I wasn't really <br />          discussing the physical aspects of his death so <br />          much as the spiritual and prophetical (is that a <br />          real word? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) aspects. As to the physical manner<br />          in which he dies, I ain't got a clue!<br /><br />       4. For the &quot;Third Destroyer&quot;, I am tending to <br />          disregard this comment until it takes more stage, <br />          as it were. I mean, it was only mentioned once, <br />          in passing, and the actual meaning of it is very,<br />          very loosely open to interpetation.<br /><br />       5. As for the Aiel being the &quot;Blood&quot; of the Dragon, <br />          I'm not sure what you mean. I don't recall that<br />          being mentioned anywhere, so I'm guessing you're <br />          drawing it from the Aiel being the &quot;People&quot; of the<br />          Dragon. The only other link that comes to mind <br />          is that Rand descends from Aiel Blood. But I'd <br />          like ya to clarify your meaning, if you <br />          would, 'cause it's an interesting idea, if<br />          a bit of a stretch. I'd love to read a post about <br />          it.<br /><br />Well, that's all I got fer now. Thankies fer the feedback!<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> Kalme Safiar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of the Davidox <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Antagonizer of All Things Cute <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /> Lamented Hunter of Cheese <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />                          &quot;I can channel too!!!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-05-05 21:54:03
subject: <b>I have to agree with some of this one....</b>
body:
This theory actually makes sense to me, and would explain a lot. IMHO, Rand will not die, but Lews Therin's presence in his head will, and according to another prophecy, I forget exactly where, Rand will walk the world as a beggar for a time. If anyone is anywhere familiar enough with Arthurian legend and myth, they would also recognize Min's viewing of the three queens as coming straight from the Arthurian saga, and also from Keltic myth itself (i.e. three queens as a representation of the Triple Goddess, the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone, as symbols of Life, Death, and Rebirth). Jordan has already borrowed from the great world traditions, why not throw this in there as well? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Also, with prophecy, it is unwise to read them literal, as has been said before. Prophecies are unstable, which is their nature, because of one thing: free will. Again, this is my own opinion...look at Nostradamus...if you're familiar with his quatrains, he has two *seperate* versions of his prophecies regarding the &quot;end of the world&quot;...just something to keep in mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Sabia Callanvorn, Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud Player at TSW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Anxiously Awaiting 10/11 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Egwene's Biggest Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 01:32:41
subject: <b>I doubt it</b>
body:
To me you sound like a person educated in writing. If not good job sounding like it. Your style of writing is unique to you though, and RJ has his own style. He has been quoted as saying that he has seen the last seen in his head since 1985 (I think) and I doubt it will come down to LTT dieing again. Though how ironic would it be that the series would start and end with the death of the same man. Maybe I should give you more credit, though I still doubt it.


created: 2003-09-19 12:00:17
subject: <b>Why is Rand Diffrent</b>
body:
Why is Rand diffrent from other people Reborn. The only diffrence is that we know who the previus incarnation was.


created: 2001-08-31 12:52:47
subject: <b>hmmm.....</b>
body:
Well, it seems like you hit almost everything.  If I remember correctly the reference you have in aCoS (where you have the description of him with a nose that was broken more than once) the man was not given a name.  But with the knives and his location in Ebou Dar it is likely that he is the same as Noal Charin.<br /><br />An interesting point that I didn't see you mention was that this old man (who we assume is Jain Farstrider (aka Noal Charin) was trying to spy on Jarrachim's killer (Shiande?).  Furthermore, he had feeling like he had forgotten something important.  The phrasing of it made it seem suspicously like the effects of Compulsion, or one of the other Stupid Forsaken Tricks.  If that is true, this makes Mat vulnerable.  It also ties in nicely with Ishy using him in the past. (If Ishy wasn't simply putting a good face on it.)<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 16:47:54
subject: <b>But he's BAAAAD.</b>
body:
The theory was great.<br /><br />The problem is that if he was used by Ishy in the past, what makes you think that he is not still under his control.  I think that he is.  It would make a nice plot twist, that the hero that all the wotmaniacs love so much turns out to be a weapon against the most popularr character (Mat).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 21:27:26
subject: <b>The old guy in Graendal's place</b>
body:
RabidWombat mentioned that it sounded like Compulsion had been used on him. One of the few things (perhaps the only thing) that this theory didn't touch on is that old guy in Graendal's place that someone sees through her gateway (if only I could remember the reference). There have been speculations that this was the same old guy; and we all know that Graendal uses Compulsion on her pets, and she likes having powerful/important people. Perhaps that's where he was, with his being Jain Farstrider outweighing his physical non-perfection.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 21:32:32
subject: <b>Involvement with Malkier</b>
body:
He was not only involved with Malkier, he is Malkieri (as my theory a week or so ago noted). Mind you, it's more fact than theory considering the glossary specifically states this, but anyway I just thought I'd note it. Good theory, lots of back-up. I think it settles this issue fairly conclusively.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aki Ross<br />Ruriha In Disguise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Still a Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Wannabe Astronaut <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Mars Or Bust! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;It is not a fairytale. It is true.&quot;</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 21:59:09
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
On the age thing, according to the Guide Malkier fell to the Blight in 953 NE. Also i would say &quot;young&quot; implied 1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />20. Putting him at 65 or so. 70-80 is getting too old i reckon, i mean he manages to hold on to Tuon in book 9, i can't see an 80 year old doing that...<br /><br /><br />Also one might want to note the similarities between Noal and the man in Greandal's palace in book 5. From the prologue, Sammael's PoV, &quot;showing a large room full of pools and fluted columns, nearly nude acrobats and attendants wearing less. Odly, a lean old man in a wrinkled coat sat disconsolately among the performers.&quot;<br /><br />1) &quot;lean&quot;. In book 7, &quot;white plumes&quot;, the forgetful man is described as &quot;scrawny&quot;<br />2) &quot;old&quot;. I think we have enough old's above to see he fits the picture.<br />3) &quot;wrinkled coat&quot;. All previous old men and Noal wear wearing identical coats, and i doubt that Greandal would provide for ironing services.<br />4) &quot;disconsolately&quot;. The helpful old man in book 7 has &quot;a sad weathered face&quot;, while Noal has &quot;a sad face&quot;.<br /><br />Also I suspect when Noal disappeared into the Blight he saw the Luc/Isam amalgamation. Worth thinking on.


created: 2001-09-01 02:09:48
subject: <b>dreams</b>
body:
Ishy didn't use compulsion on Jain Farstrider.<br /><br />In TEOTW I bet everyone remembers that Rand Mat and Perrin were plagued with those nightmares all the time.  And Moiraine said that everytime you believed the dark one, who everyone thought Ba'alzamon was at the time you surrendered part of yourself to him, and the only way for him to not gain control over you was to deny him in every way.<br /><br />That is what happened to Jain, and the reason he's ok now is cause Rand killed Ba'alzamon/Ishmaul in the stone thus setting Jain and probably quite a few others free of his power.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-01 22:48:07
subject: <b>I like the theory</b>
body:
I don't remember enitirely well (I read the first book a little under 4 years ago first and last I read it), but I think the guy who was fine in the stedding was Padan Fain, and he was temporarily fine and dandy about his True Power induced DO ordeals in the stedding.  But then, what's to say the True Power doesn't work in steddings?  Just an association from the mystical similarity between the mismonikered One Power and the True Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 15:19:08
subject: <b>Old Man with Graendel</b>
body:
I too thought that old man was Farstrider.  However, I think the more simple answer is that Graendel's old man is the last of the five great captains from Arad Doman.  Remember, that's where her palace is and no one knows where he is.  <br /><br />Interestingly, three of the five captains are headed right for each other in Andor (Algemar, Bashere, and Byrne).  One is dead (Nial).  I suspect that Graendel will use the last one (I forget his name) from Arad Doman to lead the battle strategy of the Shadow, especially now that the Forsaken with the most battle knowledge, Sammuel, is dead.


created: 2001-09-04 17:32:36
subject: <b>I thought.....</b>
body:
...the old man was King Alamsan of Arad Doman. Oh well......maybe Farstrider is better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 18:38:43
subject: <b>Sign up on the convicned side of the fence</b>
body:
I've been coming around to this idea, but now you have a firm believer out've me. Thanks and good work mate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 18:46:42
subject: <b>Great job</b>
body:
Now all that I want to see is something to tie Noal to the beggars.  I know that that theory's been around for quite a while, and I'd love to subscribe to it, but I'd like to see some evidence. <br />My bet about Noal's head problem is that it's the residual effect of whatever Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin used on him.  (&quot;thinking he was free of me . . .&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I really doubt that he was in Graendaal's palace; how would he have gotten away? <br />I still like the idea that Jaim Farstrider was one of Lan's bodyguards.  Remember, if everyone assumes Farstrider is dead, then Lan would consider Bukama to be his last LIVING bodyguard. <br />Furthermore, Noal may be under Moridin's influence, but that doesn't make him bad; it just makes him a tool.  It's entirely possible that he could be liberated from that influence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 16:09:24
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
I now think there is no doubt as to Jain being Noal. You've convinced me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 18:45:21
subject: <b>Just another supporting detail</b>
body:
He also picked up a rather fiesty Daughter of the Nine Moons without being injured severely -- quite an accomplishment since she seems to really know how to inflict damage on people.  In fact, she seemed to really struggle against him, but was just unsuccessful.


created: 2001-10-10 09:56:48
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
He could be 80 is just that he kept in shape.<br /><br />Also i don't think he is still under Ishys control or anyones he is just suffering side affects like Memory loss and headaches. Also if he was under the control of a Forsaken we would have seen a sign of it. Ishy was problary lying when he said about Jain, Jain problary escaped and Ishy just lied.


created: 2002-01-04 13:25:22
subject: <b>i never picked up...</b>
body:
on the farstrider/charin connection till now, though i have to admit that noal being a darkfriend is a distinct posibility... <br /><br />i wonder, does anyone remember the decription of Cully, the old beggar in charge of the other circle in Ebou Dar? for i always assumed the one who informed Mat of Carridan's palace was Cully keeping tabs on Shiane... could it be a possibility that Cully/Farstrider/Noal are all one in the same, just seen from different eyes and circumstances?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 14:47:27
subject: <b>About Old Cully...</b>
body:
That day when Mat was constantly being attacked? Wasn't there one point where he killed an old beggar and was staring down at him? It was either in CoS or PoD; I can't remember exactly. I was pretty sure that was Old Cully, but it could just be me... Plus, isn't Old Cully one-eyed? (Noal has two eyes, right?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://mirrorsoul.net<br />http://fragile.mirrorsoul.net</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 00:30:37
subject: <b>is the old man Noal?</b>
body:
Everyone is assuming that the old man who was watching Carridin's palace is Noal Charin. When Mat saw the old man for the first time, he recognized him from the track and saw him with Shiaine. I can't help thinking that he would recognize Noal as the same man, but I don't remember reading that he did. Everything else fits, but I can't help thinking that Mat would make the connection.<br /><br />Also, does anyone else think that the old man watching Carridin's palace is the same as in Egwene's dream? &quot;A man lay dying on a narrow bed, and it is important that he not die&quot; (or something like that) then the old man's POV says that he doesn't have much time, but that's all he has.


created: 2002-03-18 10:37:19
subject: <b>So who's the vote against?</b>
body:
I just curious why someone voted against this theory? I've always been in favor of the Jain/Noal connection. Excellent post!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-03 12:25:18
subject: <b>Wow I really hadnt even begun to putting them to together</b>
body:
As I said WOW!!! i always thought Jaim Farstrider was just a throw away character introduced to show how the legends and myths in randland linger on. I should know by now that everything is connected, everything!!!<br /><br />So totally convinced, Id like to know more conclusive proof if he is a darkfriend or not though, is he still under Moridins influence or what?


created: 2004-04-03 20:31:41
subject: <b>Oliver cant be</b>
body:
Just simply because we see him him speaking with silverbow earlier in the series. At most he could be like a year old. And the time differences between the real world and the world of dreams don't count because it doesn't seperate time, just cahnges the feel of of its flow. Excellent theory though.


created: 2005-12-31 16:49:51
subject: <b>Absolutely.</b>
body:
I've just finished reading Crossroads of Twilight and I got to exactly the same conclusion! I wanted to post it here, but I thought I'd better check first if someone had already done so. Good thing I didn't make a fool from myself... The theory about Olver is reasonable, but not very convincing. Give me some more proof and MAYBE I'll consider.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />-Suzanne Weis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Book collector<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Jewish and proud of it!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tolkien's #1 fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" />RJ's #24 fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" />Die, Berelain, die!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br />Question of the week: When will Tarmon Gai'don start?! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-09 17:16:14
subject: <b>Are you serious!?!</b>
body:
&quot;irony<br />Submitted by willwonder on 2/23/2003 5:00:49 AM<br />mat is the only emond's fielder to have no read jain farstrider&quot;<br /><br /><br />LMAO!! I will have to read the first few books again haha


created: 2001-09-01 06:44:48
subject: <b>Wheeeeeee!!!!</b>
body:
I got the first vote!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-01 06:44:52
subject: <b>More comments</b>
body:
Agreed, the Aiel have not been isolated enough to develop their own language, although their phrases and manner of speaking are barely understandable by everyday folk. Their strong sense of tradition, and the fact that there were no existing cultures in the Waste would also come into effect in preserving their original language. <br /><br />As for the Seanchan, the &#8216;natives&#8217; probably still have their own languages as part of Seanchan culture. Probably the same way Welsh or Irish is still spoken in Wales and Ireland, even though English is the predominant language. <br /><br />Sharans likely have either their own language or a very mixed up version of the language spoken in the Mainland culture. Additionally they must be able to still speak the Vulgar tongue since trade still goes on. <br /><br />The uniformity of Mainland languages is well explained, they all started with the same language so it is universally used. Even languages such as Latin are not that different from certain languages today, and that is taking into account all those outside influences, invasions and modernisations over two and a half thousand years. Also when talking about the White Tower we must remember how the increased lifespan of Aes Sedai could play a role in preserving language.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 13:04:40
subject: <b>Don't forget about us!</b>
body:
Another aspect to consider is simply that the languages need to be the same or very similar, so that those of us reading can understand what is being said...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">________________<br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 14:33:40
subject: <b>Little problem in a wierd way.</b>
body:
&quot;And what must be remembered is that all these people started out speaking the same language, something the people of Earth never did.&quot;<br /><br />Well the people of earth were speaking the same language until the Tower of Babel.  Remember that?  Its where the people wanted to build a tower to the heavens and &quot;God&quot; split them and each group spoke a different language for whatever reason.


created: 2001-09-01 15:04:38
subject: <b>Omnia Graeca mihi sunt.</b>
body:
There are just a few things you have to remember about the Romance languages (languages that are based in Latin). <br /> - The Romance languages had less than 2000 years to develop<br /> - Despite basic grammar and vocabulary structures, they are <i>nothing</i> alike. <br /> - They developed in total isolation of other languages (almost).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 19:50:54
subject: <b>ummm....</b>
body:
Just wondering.  With the list of poeople you had, there was Aiel, Mainlanders, sea Folk, and Seanchan.  Now, I already know (sort of) who the Sharans are.  I obnly have one question.<br /><br />Who the **** are the &quot;Madmen&quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 20:30:08
subject: <b>Answer...</b>
body:
If you read the the Big White Book, (which is worth it), you'll find a complete world map with Seanchan and Shara and everything on it.  Far south of the mainland there is a large island called the Island of Madmen.  The Sea Folk are probably the only ones in series that know about it, and if I remember correctly, they stay away from it.  Maybe Aginor repopulated the island with dinosaurs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Anyway, I kind of hope the island doesn't become a large part of the series.  RJ could probably make some cool plot twists with it, but really, I think he's bitten off more than he can chew already.  (I wanted Egwene to start the siege of Tar Valon, if not end the conflict in book 9!  Oh well...


created: 2001-09-01 21:21:34
subject: <b>I wouldn't say NOTHING alike</b>
body:
Spanish and Italian are very close. A lot of French is similar too. Latin can be picked up easily if you know these. There is a lot of overlap. Considering the sheer amount of previous local dialects and tribes, differences can be expected. <br /><br />In WoT there have been no regional languages (At least by the Age of Legends stage) and so everyone spoke the same language. After the AoL there were no outside influences on Mainland WoTland, unlike Europe. English is the worst language of all in that respect. It is a mixture of Gaelic, Latin, Greek, Slavic, Norse, Breton (Possibly like Gaelic?) and others. This came to be because of invasions by other cultures and conquering other cultures. WoT has no such influence so the language has mostly stayed the same. I can't think of any language that has been preserved in the real world quite like that. I don't know how much Greek, Arabic or Chinese has changed but I think they are the oldest languages.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 23:12:45
subject:
<b>Huge point against in the second last paragraph, skip to that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
We KNOW that more than the Sea Folk know of the Land of Madmen, because the seafolk told some mainlanders about it in the series.<br /><br />To tower of Babel guy - PLEASE give me a break.  Don't assume that everybody believes in that because you do.  Unless I misread your statement, that's what you're doing.<br /><br />That said, there were few and maybe just one original languages on Earth.  The language of the Indo-Europeans got most Asian languages, the Latin languages (Latin, French, Spanish, Italian, etc.), The Germanic languages (German, English, Norse, etc.) blah blah blah.  And, the Indo-European language started at about the right place for Babble in either a weird preservation of history or a bitter twist of fate.<br /><br />I find it very funny that Moridin_2000 missed out on German as a source for the English language, because a regional dialect of German called Anglish is where Old (excuse me, I spelled that too modernly - Olde) English comes from.<br /><br />It's eerie, though, how similar languages are, despite Jaded Angel's claim.  I know French not fluently but passably, and I heard this commercial where a woman said (no clue on the spelling or punctuation, so I'll do it like it would be in French, minus accents) &lt;&lt;No parlez italiano cosse bene&gt;&gt;.  I didn't know the &quot;cosse&quot; part, but I nevertheless translated it the same as the screen caption &quot;You don't speak italian very well&quot;, making &quot;cosse&quot; very.  Is this one of those dissimilarities in the Romance languages?  Heck, a rare few German sentences can be figured out with a little though.  I have a kid's book called &quot;Ich Bin Der Kleine Hasse&quot; (I am a little rabbit) and I understand some of the sentences.<br /><br />Now, I wouldn't have a chance on something Asian beyond Konichiwa, African at all, Native New Worlders (whatever we're calling them right now) at all, Australian at all, or Oceanianic at all.  But still, do you see how this happened?<br /><br />Now, after the Breaking of the World the Old Tongue was still in common use.  It was only later that the New Tongue, known then as the Vulgar Tongue, became the major language.  Wouldn't you think that there would be pockets of Old Tongue on the mainland, or hybrid languages (we can't really count on the unification of the mainland to explain that one, because the timing is all wrong).<br /><br />What I find funny is that the grammar structure varies wildly beside arbitrary borders of a one-language world.  Where but in language differences would that have come from?  I mean, British people, Australian people, and Canadians like myself have very few dialectual differences besides a few slang words and an accent.  Americans have a few spelling differences and the strangest pronounciation of the word &quot;roof&quot; and the letter 'z' but they are also the same, and the spelling differences are, truth be told, more to set themselves apart from Britain after their rebellion than for any other reason.  Granted, there has not been as much time and the world is &quot;getting smaller&quot;, but still.  Also, on another tangent, I have trouble coming to terms with the fact that Ishamael and the other Forsaken all seem to have an Andoran accent, or seem to anyway because their accent is never commented on that I remember.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 00:44:15
subject: <b>Languages</b>
body:
Just to continue this lovely argument... French, Italian, Portugues,and Spanish are *very* alike in some spellings and grammar. Spanish and Italian have similar rules of pronounciation, but sound entirely different (even if you just think of the traditional &quot;Italian&quot; pronounciation, which in America is, I think, either a Neopolitan or a Sicilian accent, and the &quot;traditional&quot; Spanish accent, which is usually South American, or in any case not Castilian) and Portugues sounds like a cross between French and Spanish (or at least I think so; it's the only one I can't speak at all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ). Latin, though, is entirely different in grammatical structure from *any* of the modern Romance languages. It's entirely inflected. Romance languages are all partially inflected (similar to Middle English; Modern English is almost entirely uninflected).  And that does make a difference grammatically, and would in WoT, too. The Old Tongue, as shown in the books, would be inflected, I think. Of course, the Common Tongue could be too, and we just can't tell. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Chinese isn't, I don't think, a good example of an old language from an isolated area which might not change much over the years, mainly because of dialect differences which vary from time period to time period (or so I understand). And Hebrew, which is one of the oldest languages in use, doesn't really count, because it was entirely resurrected in the 18th or 19th century. (Even so, there are some obvious Aramaicisms which would sound wrong to a modern Hebrew speaker). But what about a language like Egyptian? That was in use throughout modern-day Egypt and Sudan for centuries, but was almost entirely wiped out with the Muslim conquest... sort of like the Mainland conquest of Seanchan on a smaller scale.<br /><br />I *do* find it a little off that everyone on the Mainland can talk to each other perfectly, though. Especially the Aiel with the wetlanders. While the Compact and Hawkwing may take care of the mainland, the Aiel have been almost entirely isolated since they got to the Waste, and it's hard to believe that the occasional peddler (the Cairhienin don't count, because the Aiel didn't recognize them as their benefactors until relatively recently) could've interfered with the development of their language so much as to make it comprehensible to everyone. If the Aiel language evolved at *all* post-Breaking, it wouldn't necessarily have taken a similar path to the wetlander language.. Why should it have at all? *sigh* Okay. I guess that's just a little too much to ask, though, that RJ make up *another* language to make the Aiel babble more realistically.<br /><br />(P.S.-- I'm really sorry to anyone who just read through this and is now bored off their head. It's all college's fault. Yep.)


created: 2001-09-02 12:45:54
subject: <b>Anyone ever take a Linguistics course here? NOOOOO!</b>
body:
Ok It's pretty obvious that nobody here is fluent in another language so let me educate you all in how land and regional differences play a role in the development of languages.<br /><br />Robert Jordan, who is quite good at writing a story, and whom I'm still a large fan of, obviously doesn't speak another language well, or even understand how these languages change over time.  When you study linguistics one sees that ALL languages are developing and changing over time.  To think that after 1,000 years the Seanchan speak the common language or randland, with an accent is rediculous.  There was no interaction between the two areas for so long and they now understand each other only with some careful listening? Rediculous.  Yes written Romantic languages are similar, and one can probably understand what is written to some extent if one has a mastery of a language, but besides Portuegese and Spanish, it is very difficult for these people to understand each other.  Even Portuegese and Spanish have important differences when two people try to speak to each other... the Portuegese can better understand Spanish than vice versa.  The point is that these people, who all spoke Latin originally, speak entirely different languages.  <br /><br />Anyone know how Italian, Portuegese, Spanish, and French , (And Romanian but that's an all together different issue) come from Latin?  The best way for Americans to understand it is to look at us and Britain, Australian, and to some extent Canada.  We had interaction through trade with these countries and in only 400 years or so and some of these languages develope different dialects.  Now when you have almost no interaction between areas like we do throughout human history, the same language changes, like all languages that are constantly changing.<br /><br />I'm an American who spent two years in Germany.  I speak German fluently, and read it just as well.  German was not a united language until the mid 1800's.  That means that rules and pronunciations where not set in stone until this time.  Even within the same &quot;land&quot; it's very hard for two people from entirely different areas to understand each other.  For example, a Bavarian, from southern Germany, had a very hard time understanding a Hamburger from Northern Germany who speaks the &quot;Hochdeutsch&quot;.  In a land roughly the size of Montana we have dialects that develop so differently that people can hardly be said to speak the same language. I had two Austrian roomates and I can understand many of the Austrian Accents of German better than many who learn German.  The Swiss on the other hand have Switzerduetsch that I sometimes have a hard time understanding, especially when they talk to fast.  Again same language that is related only in roots.<br /><br />What's this all mean for Randland?  That although the people may have spoken the same language, a mythical, &quot;old tongue&quot; after 3,000 years there would be a myriad of languages based off this old tongue.  Likely Illianers and Tariens would not speak the same language, despite their proximity.  Andorans would speak extremely different dialects of the same language.  Aiel would absolutely have spoken a different language than the other people on happy side of the Dragonwall.  Seanchan language would change to such a degree that it would be considered a different language.  The Forsaken would not recognize the &quot;common&quot; randland tongue because that language would not have even existed when they where imprisoned.  Even if it is based off of a vulgar tongue at the time, it would have changed so much in 3,000 years to be unrecognizable.<br /><br />I wish Jordan had more of a mastery of linguistics and languages, it would truly make the reading even more enjoyable and realistic.  Just a little extra attention to detail that makes reading even more fun. <br /><br />Well it's long, but i think my point was made.<br />Torin the Chosen<br /><br />Btw English *is* a Germanic Language, mostly.  It's really a mix of German, French, Keltic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />, and a little from many other languages.  To say that it's simply germanic would be misleading, as it's had several influences over the years.<br />


created: 2001-09-02 22:23:44
subject: <b>RJ was just lazy...</b>
body:
I think it's fairly obvious, that while perhaps the Aiel should be speaking a different language, or the Seanchan should have a slightly different dialect, the Mainlanders and the Sea Folk should almost certainly have a uniform tongue, for one reason. the simple volume of trading that goes on should ensure that all mainlanders and Sea Folk are fluent in one language. Well there may have been regional tongues 3000 years ago, over the years they evolved into one homogenous tongue. The Seanchan are a bit more difficult to explain, but think about it for a moment. Most of the Seanchan we've seen have all been, while not all of the Blood, fairly upper-middle class. Sul'dam's, ship captains, so'jihn, etc. They could be expected to speak the language that the Blood brought over with them (because as we've seen the Blood aren't exactly conformists, they _would_ continue to speak their own language) because they don't want to be unable to converse with the members of Seanchan society. The Aiel are harder to explain, but it's still doable. They wandered the land outside the Waste for two generations or so before turning past the Dragonwall. Over that time, as we see with the Cairhienin scene, they spoke the same language. With peddlers and gleemen and the like coming through the Waste constantly, there would have been no point in losing the Common Tongue. The Sarans, at least in the villages that trade with the Aiel and Sea Folk, know the Common Tongue as well. The only problem I see with Jordan's linguistic development is the lack of information about the origins of the Common Tongue; it seems in no way related to the Old Tongue. All in all, though, this is a pretty minor thing to be caring about.


created: 2001-09-03 05:26:20
subject: <b>Reality</b>
body:
Sometimes people forget this is just a book...<br /><br />I bet if Jordan read all this stuff that he would shakes his head and laugh.<br />I mean if they were speaking a form of arabian of something where each character would need a translator at every turn, then the book would be too realistic and boring.<br />They all speak the same because it is easy for us to grip as the basis of all books.<br /><br />Next there will be a theory telling us that the land is a monster because it has fingers stretching to the sea, and its back is the spine of the world, and it will be a new character....<br /><br />Reality check required here...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 10:07:15
subject: <b>Last night, understanding suddenly came to me</b>
body:
Books!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />In the Strike at Shayol Ghul, RJ states that the Printing Press survived the Breaking. In the books everybody can read, this is totally different from the Real World, until the few centuries only a very few could read and only in the last century have the majority been able. Languages evolve because there is no reference beyond a generation or two ago. Books last far longer than human memory. Aes Sedai are able to read and fragments from hundreds of years before, often from before the TW or even the breaking.<br /><br />this also can get round the problem of the transition from the Old tongue to the New, if books started to be printed in the New / Vulgar tongue, then everybody would be learning the new language together. The Aiel buy the books peddlers bring into the Waste, and the Seanchan would have taken books across the Ocean with them when they left the main continent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 11:56:55
subject: <b>A few notes...</b>
body:
First of all, what Queen of Aramaelle said makes a lot of sense: books would cause a language to change slower than it would without books.<br /><br />Then, on the Seanchan topic: we have seen they consider themselves descendants from Hawkwing, rightful rulers of the mainland, and such. I think we can safely assume that they are <i>much</i> more like the people in Hawkwings age than the people on the mainland are, in language too. It would make sense if they were extremely conservative, maintaining their language and culture as it was when they arrived as much as possible. I think that their dialect is very close to what Hawkwing must have spoken, so it isn't all that weird that they can talk to mainlanders.<br /><br />As for the languages discussion: the spelling of those languages is indeed very much alike, and the grammar (the verbes in particular) (especially between Spanish and Portuguese) but the pronunciation is very different. I've been in Portugal and in Spain and I can tell that no matter what the spelling, it sounds very differently. Then, Italian, is a bit like Spanish, but a Spanish person would have much trouble understanding an Italian speaking, much in the same way as I only understand German when it's written. And a Portuguese person wouldn't understand the Italian at all. French is, again, in spelling like the others, but sounds totally different. <br /><br />By the way, I think it strange that you all take the Romanic languages as an example when our own Germanic is just as good an example: in the Medieval Age, people who spoke Old-Dutch and people who spoke Old-German or Old-English didn't have much trouble understanding each other at all - quite logical since a few centuries before, it was one language. That old language must have been very much like Frisian is now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 01:25:40
subject: <b>Simply amazing...</b>
body:
It is beyond remarkable that such a debate arises in this context. Now, I am a fan of the theories as much as anyone, but let's all take a short step back and a few cleansing breaths, and realize some simple truths.<br /><br />To respond to some of the comments brought on this thread...<br /><br />RJ is lazy? Get a clue.<br /><br />RJ doesn't know anything about other languages or their development? See above.<br /><br />People, these are works of fiction, and they are meant to entertain. Mr. Jordan is so lazy that he writes 800+ pages in most of the volumes of this series, so lazy that he 'might' finish it in thirteen books when he originally intended six, and spends months making sure that his work says what he wants it to, and doesn't say anything that won't fit with what has already gone before. It is enough and more than enough that he has developed scores of individual characters to such a degree of detail, from among at least six societal cultures whose history and tendencies are also carefully developed.<br /><br />All of that so that we can enjoy a marvelous story. But of course that just isn't authentic enough, he should have written the Aiel with a fully-formed alternate language, likewise the Seanchan, and the Sea-folk somewhere in between. Then of course we could enjoy the series so much more, but only after sending away for the mail-order lessons in speaking Aiel, Seanchan, and Atha'an Miere.<br /><br />Give me a big fat hairy break. I suppose Gladiator was a terrible movie because everyone spoke English, when obviously they should have been speaking Greek and Latin, eh?<br /><br />Remember - FICTION. That gives the author license to do things his own way.<br /><br />Oh, and the bit posted by one gent about the Tower of Babel being where languages diverged? He isn't the only one who views it as fact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 02:22:53
subject: <b>I appreciate your comments...</b>
body:
As to the people who are going on about how this is only fiction so who cares, may I point out: what are you doing reading it, or commenting on it, or even in the Theory Post, then?<br />Point on books is good, I didn't think of that. It would certainly help explain it.<br />What a lot of you seem to be missing is the fact that the Mainland was UNIFIED, TWICE, in 3000 years. That is one of the key points in my theory and makes all the stuff about &quot;but on Earth...&quot;irrelevant.<br />Also, the quote about different languages in the never-unified Seanchan (ubtil the Consolidation) makes it clear that other languages did develop, and were suppressed by the Consolidation.<br />The Forsaken? That is an unexplained point, but then it doesn't really bear on the theory as to why everyone else speaks the same language.<br />And I do learn three languages, Latin, French, and Maori (totally unrelated to them OR English) so I feel I can comment on this subject.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 11:42:25
subject: <b>Thank You Torin</b>
body:
It seemed obvious to me that Jordan has little to no language experience.  Language is constantly changing and evolving, to the point that in some parts of the Caucasus mountains, every valley has its own language (there are over 153 languages spoken in an area smaller than the size of Texas).  Time, isolation and conquest work to change things.  <br /><br />The Romance languages today are VERY similar to classical Latin, except that all have been simplified and a barbarian (Visigoth, Ostrogoth, Vandal, Frank, Dacian, et al.) pronunciation and set of loan-words have been superimposed on the Latin foundation (such as the Visigoth &quot;zorro&quot; (&quot;fox&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> of Spanish, where Italian keeps the Latin-derived &quot;vulpes&quot; as &quot;volpe&quot; and French uses the term &quot;reynard&quot;, perhaps from the popular medieval stories of Reinardus Vulpes, though perhaps both names come from an earlier Frankish root).  If you're still not convinced, find a Spanish version of El Poema del Mio Cid and tell me it's not similar to French or Italian.<br /><br />In short, I always thought Jordan was pulling the old Advanced Dungeons &amp; Dragons &quot;everybody speaks common&quot; trick to avoid having to become a linguist, which he obviously is not.  Tolkien set a high bar for fantasy writers by coming up with languages for his nations, but let's not forget he was a professor of linguistics and Old English (Eald Aenglisc gif ge thencath thaet hit is betra thaet the ic swa awende) at Oxford.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 12:31:23
subject: <b>Too simple</b>
body:
Europe was united in the Roman Empire, it took only a few centuries for very different languages to develop out of Latin, even though Latin was the only written language and the language of the church, a factor much more unifying than any Randland has.<br />Dutch develloped out of German in only a few decades even though the trade and cultural contacts were a few thousand times of what connects the Aiel with the rest of the world.<br />In short there is absolutly no way that to cultures like Aiel and the rest of Randland start with one language (the old one) and arrive at the same new one.


created: 2001-09-04 18:48:19
subject: <b>Cool beans yo..</b>
body:
...I always thought it kind of obvious why there isn't much of a real language barrier betwixt various human cultures. It was good to have it all spelled out though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 21:01:52
subject: <b>Good book if you like languages</b>
body:
People who have contributed to or just enjoyed this lengthy conversation might enjoy &quot;The Language Instinct&quot; by Stephen Pinker.  Besides being witty and extremely readable, it does a good job of explaining what is now known about the deep structure that is shared by all languages.


created: 2002-02-18 13:23:55
subject: <b>Just how big is Randland/Westland/Mainland?</b>
body:
Has anyone worked out just how big the main contenient is? How does it compare to, say, the modern day USA? We all speak the same language, even if there are some idiomatic shifts between regions. Sure the US is relativly young and yes English has evolved from when the States were first settled by Europe, but given the Unification of Randland and printing presses, why shouldn't they all speak the same language?<br />So there.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 15:18:42
subject: <b>FANTASY PEOPLE !!!</b>
body:
SO WHAT IF JRR WHATS HIS FACE GIVE EACH NATION THEIR OWN LANGUAGE????  WHO CARESSSS!!!!!!!! GEZZZZ  JUsT BECAUSE JRR WHATS HIS FACE DID SO DOES NOT MEAN EVERY ONE ELSE HAS TO....<br />FUNNY..PEOPLE SAYING JORDAN IS LAZY BECAUSE HE DID NOT TAKE THE TIME TO DEVELOP MULTIPLE LANGUAGES BLAH BLAH BLAH.....<br />WRITE YOUR OWN DAMN FANTASY THEN .......GOD!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><br />there...my two cents...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-23 23:43:02
subject: <b>Oy...</b>
body:
You guys are all idiots with way too much time on your hands. People like you are what makes the world such a freaking complicated place. And it's complicated enough damnit!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 19:18:42
subject: <b>languages always languages</b>
body:
Actually Europe was united many times under the Romans and then under the Holy Roman Empire.  I think that each country might have it's own language but what we see the most is a common tounge which is pread far and wide.  If it were true with the non developement of seperate languages than everyone would still be speaking the oold tounge instead.


created: 2002-07-01 07:32:38
subject: <b>The Roman Empire</b>
body:
What some people forget about the Roman Empire is that they allowed the people they conquered to keep their own cultural heritages, up to a certain extent.  Also, for the most part, they allowed their people to keep their own languages.  The areas which currently speak Romance languages are ones that were under Roman governance for the longest periods of time.  Otherwise we would be seeing Romance languages from Britain in the north to northern Africa in the south; from Spain in the west to far Asia Minor in the east.<br /><br />Also, unless you go for a theory that our current world went through a collapse similar to that in the books after the War of Power, there is not much of a relationship between the unification under the Romans and that of Westland (much better name than the hated &quot;R&quot; word).  The Romans conquered people who had much different linguistic backgrounds, while the unifications in Westland helped to preserve a commonly shared background.  <br /><br />While I agree that in all likelyhood there would have been a severe linguistic shift in the various areas (especially those seperated by large geological barriers like mountains or oceans), I think that any parallels we draw will have to be somewhat flawed due to the extreme  nature of this particular world.<br /><br />Of course, in the end I can always fall back on the &quot;these are just books&quot; arguement... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 21:54:57
subject: <b>Something else to think about...</b>
body:
The Third Age is a LOT different than our world, so much that we can hardly compare them. It important to remember that the Westlands is a world in decline, not ascent. The apex of culture in the Third Age was right before the Trolloc Wars, during the compact of the ten nations. Throughout the books we see constantly things (statues, spires, etc) from earlier times, but none of these things are being produced at Rand's time. This is something that has been devolped by RJ since TGH when Ingtar complains to Rand about nations borders being pushed back and the nations themselves falling apart. He comments on how one could ride from the spine of the world to the Aryth Ocean and stay more or less in civilization the entire trip, and now you can go through huge country sized swathes of desolation (Black Hills, anyone?). Aparently much more survived the Breaking than it seems by Jordan's explanations, because it took only 800 or so years for the population to advance itself to nearly AoL civilization (Manetheren, Ogier archetecture, Tar Valon, Stone of Tear, etc). It stands to reason that the language also would have stayed closer to the same during this time. Besides the land being united, trade would have been much more apparent than even in Rand's day. The world was much more akin to 19th century Europe than The Middle Ages. Plus, as has been noted, the printing press had been around for the entire 3000 years, where here it has been around for 800 or so. Add this fact to the aforementioned ideas of the two huge unities of the TW and Hawkwing. Also, there were many times in the history of the Westlands where false Dragons conquered much of the land and had to be driven back by united nations. So its easier to see that any widening of dialects would have happened in the last 500 or so years of the Westlands, not during the beginning of the Third Age. Add to this Aes Sedai involvement and the language stays fairly well preserved. This doesn't explain anything about the Aiel or Seanchean, except for maybe the books-(maybe this is why Jordan made such a big deal about Aiel reading everything they can get there hands on). <br /><br />Also, to everyone who talks about how far American English has evolved from British English, it is funny to know that Americans speak closer to the Shakespearean dialect than modern British do. Also, the working vocabulary for the modern English speaker is about 8,000 words, where it was over 20,000 for an average speaker in Shakespeare's day.


