# w_comment

created: 2005-02-17 18:59:23
subject: <b>Blacksmiths in CoT</b>
body:
This has already been mentioned, but I think it needs to be mentioned again. In CoT Sevanna let the blacksmiths go when the Shaido captured Maldon. So they still follow that rule. A significant clue this is.<br /><br />I think Perrin's being a blacksmith will play into the plotline with the Shaido, though I don't know exactly how.


created: 2005-09-07 21:19:24
subject: <b>I think that</b>
body:
Perrin's being a blacksmith will play into the rescue of Faile and the others in no small was. As is stated above me, Sevanna let all of the blacksmiths go, and that is significant. It is also significant that Perrin won't shutup about being &quot;only a blacksmith&quot; (and I really like Perrin, a lot).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-15 07:18:24
subject: <b>nearly unrelated question....</b>
body:
....am I the only one or does there seem to be a lot of misogyny freely expressed on the boards in Wotmania?  I was shocked to see the following quote made by an alleged female:<br /> &quot;I care not one whit for Faile. I hate that stupid chick. She deserved to be caught and horsewhipped.&quot;<br /><br />Over and over again, so many posts here deride women that it's becoming somewhat distasteful.  What gives?  Is it that RJ created so many strong, though disparate, female characters that the people drawn to the blood and guts side of the story feel compelled to spew such drivel?


created: 2009-02-21 16:15:51
subject: <b>Wow, what a long strange trip it's been.</b>
body:
As we have surely been recovering from the reeling news of our dearly departed RJ, we have moved on these many moons and continued the discussion. <br /><br />Yes dear poster of ideas, I too am saddened by the trite manner in which some have expressed their views concerning female characters.  Such strong characters have made reading and re-reading the novels so much fun these many years.<br /> <br />Thank you for your recent post to this humble thread.<br />dr2000dr<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 11:10:02
subject: <b>*gives a flat-eyed stare*</b>
body:
I'm sorry dude, no offense, but I don't see how anyone could actually compare WoT to Tupac and the other rapists - oh, sorry. I mean rap artists. It disturbs me greatly. While it appears that Britney Spears being the DO makes sense, after all her music blows, at least she's hot<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> By the way, I'm not bashing your theory, just so you know. I'm just not much of a rap fan...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 11:37:19
subject: <b>Hey just what we needed!</b>
body:
Another theory titled &quot;Grand Unified Theory&quot; but this one is &quot;humorous&quot;<br /><br />I think we should have a seperate section for humorous theories, that way I can avoid this stuff.<br /><br />I didn't even read this one, I stopped after &quot;Tupac Shakur&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 17:07:45
subject: <b>Um, there -is- a section for humerous theories.</b>
body:
Or did you not notice the &quot;Category: Humorous Theories&quot; right beneath the title of the thing? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-12 19:42:30
subject: <b>Some people jsut don&#180;t get it,huh windsor? (no offense)...</b>
body:
...anyway...I think Britney is not only the DO but also all the Forsaken and all Shaido Aiel and all bad people in WOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   *runs away screaming<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />OPS I DID IT AGAIN,etc.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 19:43:36
subject: <b>my spelling,my spelling</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 02:16:42
subject: <b>yes I did</b>
body:
indeed I did<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 10:39:23
subject: <b>Sheer Genius</b>
body:
If Britney is the Dark One, should I stop drinking Pepsi? Seriously, help me out here.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />       The Goatbugger<br />            Taunter of Trollocs<br />            Annoyer of Darkfriends<br /><br />   &quot;If bugging half man/half goats is cool, consider me Miles Davis.&quot;


created: 2002-06-01 10:05:48
subject: <b>Not only Pepsi, But Coke too</b>
body:
I think the slayer is Christina Aguilera<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alex the Chosen<br /><br />The True Fifteenth Forsaken<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> Member of The Wotmania Revival Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> Leader of &quot;the Order of Sodamachine&quot; <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Trigger is cool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Christ is the coolest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 01:45:39
subject: <b>NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Please, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />May we shelter in the creators hand. Let A New Found Glory and other Punk bands become Asha'man and protect us(A New Found Glory made a punk version of &quot;I Want it That Way&quot; and it sounds good *shivers* )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 04:15:39
subject: <b>RJ Said</b>
body:
In an interview with RJ. He was asked about this question. He said that soul of someone Blaefired will be reborn the next time they were due for rebirth. I don't know if their souls are some form energy form that has to go somewhere.<br /><br />Please don't ask for the source of the interview it was along time ago.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 05:35:32
subject: <b>mat</b>
body:
Could this be what has happened with Mat, He is an amalgamation of different souls merged?  Which he quite obviously is given his memories.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-13 07:20:10
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I agree with Mat as that would sound like a good idea. <br />One idea you have to think of is that when a person is balefired all of them disappears, where as when a wall is balefire a whole is created. This would imply that the soul of te person is definatly effected in someway, and that the soul is teh part destryed, or dispersed, beacuse otherwise a gap would appear within a person when balefired, not all of them disappearing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 09:57:58
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Which scientific theory indicates that there is a finite amount of matter and energy in the universe, or more particularly the WOT universe?  I am not familiar with that one.  <br /><br />We have already seen that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply here, since one can in theory create a perpetual motion machine by tying off a combination of weaves.  Therefore, there can exist certain closed systems that are infinite with respect to themselves (if driven by the OP).  The Wheel itself is the prime example.  It is a closed system that is driven by the OP.  It also is infinite with respect to itself.    <br /><br />Since there is an infinite energy source that drives the system, why must there be a limited reservoir of soul &quot;energy&quot;?  Since the WOT is infinite, by definition, billions and billions of souls may be wiped out without ever making the slightest dent in the amount of &quot;soul energy&quot; available.<br /><br />I think that the real destructive power of balefire is that it burns the Age Lace as it is being woven.  Imagine taking a Zippo to a rug and burning away some of the thread used to weave it as it is being woven.  At some point, you destroy enough threads that the rug falls off the loom.  However, this does not say anything about the availability of the threads that the weaver has access to.  <br /><br />In other words, I don't think there is a limited source of souls.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 16:38:06
subject: <b>Why balefire doen't make holes in people</b>
body:
I've thought about this, and I think the answer is this: balefire does make holes in people, but the dead person doen't simply drop to the ground with a hole in the chest.<br />The reason is this - the balefire killed the person <i>before</i> the person reached the point where he was standing when the balefire was launched. Remenber when Moggy balefired Nynaeve's boat? the boat was suddenly upstream. I think that if, for example, you were at Ruidean when Rand BFed the Darkhounds, you might see them suddenly appear in the street. I could be wrong, but hey <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 00:54:47
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
...if you perhaps view balefire as a more extreme form of entropy, it could actually destroy energy.  If you believe in the theory of entropy, the energy in the universe is slowly being lost as it changes forms...very very minute amounts, granted, but it adds up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 02:40:11
subject: <b>I love the theory, but...</b>
body:
It is also quite possible that balefire is an anomoly that is only discovered every so many turnings of the wheel. Evidence could be the &quot;new&quot; discoveries of bonding and the healing of severing.<br /> You could also reason out that &quot;souls&quot; are made on a semi-constant basis. When the wheel makes a complete rotation it could release energy which, in effect, creates new &quot;souls&quot; albeit generic ones. The basis for this creation would be the combined actions and attitudes of the WoT's residents creating a sort of &quot;collective subconscience&quot; which the wheel then drws from. These souls could then be used to create static characters in the books like , say, Eazil Forney from EotW. Through many turnings of the wheel it is quite posible that this soul could wind up becoming the next Rahvin or Rhuaric.<br /> Another theory could be that the Creator has a few constant &quot;souls&quot; to use to make life interesting. He/she/it then creates some generic &quot;souls&quot; to populate the world. After all, it would only be another sha'rah game without more people to make it interesting.<br /> Just my thoughts, so there you go!


created: 2002-04-14 06:32:36
subject: <b>ahhh Phyzix!</b>
body:
Ok, Ive noticed that these theories are turning into the more scientific, theoretical realm....<br />Id like to say that Im studying to be a physicist right now, so this is definately my interest.<br /><br />First off, I wanna say that this IS just a book...fantasy...created in the mind of RJ and then expanded and sustained by us..the readers.....<br />i could go into my schpeal about how thought can become incarnate in another universe...another dimension if you will....but as we all know, dimensions are wierd, there are 11 of them...7 rolled up into an impercievable singularity...but thats another story<br /><br />As for WOT theories of energy, we cant really expect them to work....through deduction, we have seen that WOT-land doesnt adhere to our laws of thermodynamics...thus we can assume that its laws of physics are unlike ours in many respects....thanks to the source....which makes this story so great!!  thats the essence of fiction..right? something not what we are used to!<br /><br />ok..anyways...<br />Im realising that I need to post a theory....sooo...<br />ill leave you all with that...and then maybe i can get a theory posted someday!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 11:01:03
subject: <b>hmmm?!</b>
body:
Only problem I have is if the creator can create all these people from the beginning why can't he just sew new threads into the wheel to replace the burned ones or like Mat just attach a bunch of old burnt threads together to make one very important Ta'veren thread.


created: 2002-04-15 13:00:59
subject: <b>Well.... hm</b>
body:
Ok, I think that for Rand's case... the soul is the same, but not the personality. There is a distinct difference between LTT and Rand Al'Thor. However, in cases like Cyndane and Moridin, they seem to be the same exact person in a different body. I dont know how to explain it, but I see a difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 09:21:37
subject: <b>Balefire and the Soul</b>
body:
I post text from a booksigning:<br /><br />The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does &quot;burning one's thread from the pattern&quot; mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-POD book-signing [Northern Virginia-- 21 November, 199<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />: <br /><br />Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is Balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. <br /><br />I posted this on the FAQ blackboard under &quot;Which Forsaken are Really Dead&quot;, but the FAQ still states balefire is the end of the soul...  *nudge* *nudge* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-16 12:33:38
subject: <b>I'll say more soon</b>
body:
I just wanted to let you all know that I want to reply to the questions that this theory has generated, but that it may be a while since I am trying to finish up some term papers.  In the meantime, I would like to say that I had not heard that quote by Jordan stating that balefire does not result in the final death of the soul.  This has an effect on my theory, but I still think that what I outlined on reincarnation could be a useful way to approach this process in the WOT universe.  Also, the fact that balefired souls are reprocessed in each turning of the Wheel can be used to support the idea that the Wheel holds a finite number of souls (or a finite amount of energy set aside for this purpose).  I will elaborate more on this, and on the posted questions when I get an opportunity.  One last thing: I know that scientific speculation on the WOT universe is rather pointless for a number of reasons, but hey, we're just having some fun here right<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 17:40:23
subject: <b>Rand and LTT not......</b>
body:
the same soul.  Interesting theory although I have to go with AOBtD.  Rand and LTT are not the same soul.  Where did RJ ever suggest this?  Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  LTT the Dragon.  The wheel spins out a Dragon when there is a need and the pattern uses the Dragon to accomplish what needs doing.  Rand is Rand not LTT reborn and they don't have the same soul.  different souls same animal,  born with the ability to do whats needed.  Moridin is Ishy are the same soul.  Rand and LTT are not the same soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 20:34:26
subject: <b>LTT/Rand and the Reborn Forsaken</b>
body:
This is my first day on the site, so forgive me if I'm saying something stupid :-)<br /><br />In response to the original theory:<br />It's interesting, but I don't believe it is viable, simply because I believe Lews Therin killed himself with balefire. Going by the description of how he killed himself (&quot;The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant...&quot; pp. xiv EotW) balefire is the only possible option...plus it explains the Dragonmount, since the paradox of a person removing their own thread from the pattern before they removed their thread from the pattern has to create some turmoil. But if your theory is true, then LTT's soul would be unable to come back in a new form because of his Power-wrought suicide, and therefore we wouldn't even *have* the story of the WOT novels we read today.<br /><br />In response to the other posts:<br />I believe what I said before is the difference between the Cyndane/Moridin situations and the Rand/LTT situation. LTTs soul was sent out of the pattern, so has to be woven in as something new, not as simply an indentical mind with new body. Yet the life-threads of Ishamael and whoever Cyndane is the rebirth of (if you guys know, I don't yet sry) are still in the pattern of this age in some form, though their physical selves died. Therefore, they can't be woven entirely new, and with enough power--like that of the Dark One-- *can* be reinserted into the pattern as their old selves.<br /><br />Peace y'all<br />--Memnoch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Sedai<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 09:13:29
subject: <b>Lews Therins death was not balefire...</b>
body:
In an interview in Dublin in 1993, RJ made this clear.  Here is a summarization of one of his answers:<br /><br />Specific questions: Lewis Therin Telamon's suicide was emphatically &quot;not&quot; balefire, but an overload of the Power. And when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising people.<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-20 03:38:30
subject: <b>Space and matter finite?</b>
body:
Jigga wha? A man dead for some 23 centuries was able to prove within the bounds of simple logic what physicists are still over-complicating today.<br /><br />Epicurus says: Let us assume that the universe is finite. That means that a border exists at a point. If I put my arm beyond that point then I have created a new border of the universe. One can continue this process ad infinitum, therefore, the universe cannot be finite. And if space is infinite, then must not matter be as well? If there were a finite amount of matter and an infinite amount of space, no matter would ever coalesce, and this is plainly not the case. &lt;picks up a rock&gt; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />Also, if a soul were burned from the pattern, wouldn't that make it real easy for the DO to get at, since outside the pattern is his local haunt? <br /><br />So either the Creator is just having fun with the DO, making him think he has some kind of dominion over anything at all or the Aes Sedai don't understand dick about Balefire. <br /><br />Which brings me to... who in Randland first proposed it burned a thread from the pattern? It was discovered in the AoL, so we have to assume the DO said &quot;I CAN'T REVIVE THAT PERSON&quot; to a shadowrunner and they spread the word. <br /><br /><br />Silly darkfriends, making up crazy theories about Balefire. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">So I'm just sitting there all la-dee-da <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> when this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> drops out of nowhere, and Wham! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Son of a mother! Me beautiful eye is on fire! So now I'm all like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 18:55:49
subject: <b>lews therin</b>
body:
I your theory is true, it could explain why Rand hears Lews Therin- due to them both being immensely strong ta'veren, their &quot;soul energy&quot; being drawn to each other, resulting in a disproportionate amount of Lews Therin in Rand.Unfortunately, I can't see your theory being right.


created: 2003-06-05 20:44:07
subject: <b>FAO monkey v3.0</b>
body:
Much more recently than that Greek dude, Einstein proved that the universe was finite yet unbounded.  Ho Hum.  It probably only holds in our universe and not in Randl.. (sorry I can't make myself say it).  Anyway Monkey v3.0, I'm not trying to prove you wrong just fine tuning your argument.<br /><br />I kinda butted in at the end of this argument,  with a bit of an irrelevancy - so apologies all round.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The subtle_knife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />: <br /><br />It is not difficult to explain these things away - but, I wonder ! <i> Alan Turing on his premonition of Christopher Morcom's death</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 21:33:49
subject: <b>Soul Energy..............?</b>
body:
I don't buy your theory about 'soul energy'..... because you have to think, what is a soul? Not everything can be classified as matter or energy - take a shape, for example, or a shadow: neither of these is matter or energy, yet we still use nouns to describe them. I think that a soul is very similar to this idea; it is merely a collection of thoughts and instincts, basically everything inside your brain. I did, however, like your 'dissipation' idea. Very interesting........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Doomaflatchi<br /><br />&quot;The Age of male channelers will come, and I intend to herald it on its way.&quot;<br />-Xao to Meadrin Sedai, Wheel of Time RPG</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 01:20:33
subject: <b>Dispersed.....not reduced.</b>
body:
I think your wording may be a bit off.  If a soul can be &quot;reincarnated&quot; within new &quot;living&quot; souls, or simply scattered amougnst cosmic energy, than it has to be dispersed......not reduced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inflation would be much easier to endure if we lived in a third world country that made trade with coffee beans.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Range <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Right Hand of the Blade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Duke of Boiling Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> Culinary Ruffian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-01 16:22:14
subject: <b>To much THINKING!!!!</b>
body:
So long as my soul stays right here, I'm happy...  Then again, turning into a supercool Aes Sedai/Asha'man dude would be totally awesome-wicked-sweet. Totally. Dude.lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who Dares, Wins.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 17:25:14
subject: <b>What about a messenger?</b>
body:
Sheriam and the other two sent word of the cache to Merilille(sp?), so what if the messenger was a df?  That could easily explain it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 17:44:55
subject: <b>well, in this case, the messenger was probably a pigeon</b>
body:
-<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 20:05:32
subject: <b>Burr</b>
body:
Maybe it was a raven in disguise. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 00:54:33
subject: <b>you're a freak</b>
body:
okay, so RJ writes some deep stuff, but sometimes you guys take it too far. For God's sake, there was a theory about the physics of the Wheel of Time. Come on guys, get a life. Can you say obsessive compulsive?<br />You shouldn't read in TOO much on to what RJ says. Sure, I understand he is a very complex writer, but remember, some things CAN be mistakes, of which you interpret to be the genius of RJ when he goes with the flow and takes credit.<br />The moral of this story: Open up your curtains and look at the sunlight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />, because there is more to this world than your computer and the Wheel of Time.


created: 2002-04-15 02:01:50
subject: <b>I just got out today: for 8 hours</b>
body:
Yep, I'm a gardener and landscaper.  I love the sun.  <br /><br />You'd be suprised at who some of us are.  And most of us would probably admit being a freak to some extent another.<br /><br />But we are what we are, so why not enjoy what we do??  I always do.<br /><br />So what if we read too much into something.  Most of us gain some pleasure out of this, or we wouldn't do it.  <br /><br />It's been almost 2 years since the last book, so every theory that comes out now has to look deeply in between the lines.  If you haven't noticed that yet, then maybe you should spend some more time on your computer, and look at the theories that have been posted lately.<br /><br />If you have something to add, then that's great.  But if you come here just to criticize- well, please stay out.  It's better for everyone.  <br /><br />And if you do want to criticize, there are artful ways of doing it within in the context of a theory.  Check out '3 in a boats' latest theory on the tower of Ghenjei, and you will get yourself an advanced degree in 'flame education.'  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 10:53:52
subject: <b>Personally I thought this was a great theory!</b>
body:
Much more along the lines of actually important to the story and it's future developments. So many theories today make wild assumptions based on our own world that a theory that dives into cracking spy networks is exactly what the theory post needed IMO. I don't have much to add to this one other then praise, it is some of these well thought out theories and the discussions that are sparked from them that keep me coming back to this site. I was literally blown away with the information I gathered off this site after reading I got done with Winters Heart (I made a point to stay away from any WoT websites until I got though the books up until then as I didn't want spoilers) and I must say that when I just finished up my second reading just last week, it was almost better then the first, as this time I actually understood what was going in so many areas that just left me scratching my head before. Good Theory, and Good Job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 02:01:09
subject: <b>Wow . . . Just Plain Wow.</b>
body:
Matrimony,<br /><br />I am deeply indebted to you.  I'm a big fan of Dom's theories, but most of the other LOOOONG theories are rambling drivel and boring to boot (no 'fense, guys).  Your theory was well-defined, easy to read and quite enjoyable, however.  Good work.<br /><br />But . . .<br /><br />There are a few things I wanted someone to help me clear up.<br /><br />First of all, if Sheriam was &quot;beaten up,&quot; as you put it, then I don't necessarily see that as evidence of her working for another Forsaken.  Either A) she did work for Sammael and another DF or Forsaken was taking it out on her, or B) to regain her loyalty and service, said DF or Forsaken recruited her as a relatively powerful DF who'd already worked for Sammael.  Sometimes Forsaken and DFs just &quot;beat up&quot; or kill people out of revenge.  Liandrin is a classic example.<br /><br />You also said Sammael has &quot;never been in [the] dreamworld.&quot;  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he hang out with Rhavin, Lanfear and Graendal in T'A'R when they were conducting their meetings?  I'd concede he probably wasn't a fan of the dreamworld and didn't use it much, but he still had been there before.<br /><br />Just wanted some clarification.<br /><br />Oh, and CleanToe, don't be mean.  I make a decent living as a post-collegiate musician who plays and parties just as much as the average jock or sorrority bimbo.  The best thing about Jordan's series is the accessibility.  I've been reading fantasy all my life, but I haven't found a readership as diverse as the patrons of RJ anywhere else. <br /><br />And hey, you were the one who read that long theory . . . pot, kettle, black . . .<br /><br />Good work, Matriomy,<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-16 10:06:04
subject: <b>Forgotten</b>
body:
There were nine Aes Sedai (seven excluding Nynaeve and Elayne) in the Tarasin Palace in Ebou Dar during the hunt for the bowl of the winds, with all but Teslyn and Joline connected with the rebels.  We also know (from comments in Winters Heart and the murder of Adeleas) that one of the rebel sisters is likely to be black.<br /><br />Vandene and Merilille know about the hunt for the cache, and as fellow rebels we can probably assume Sareitha and Careane know as well.  One of these four would be a very likely source for Sammael's knowledge about the angreal cache.  You can check out all the theories about Adeleas killer for odds on the most likely one.  I must admit this doesn't explain how Moghedien found out about them.


created: 2002-04-16 20:07:56
subject: <b>Carlinya and the Raven</b>
body:
I do not know if this is correct, but I recall Min viewing a raven around the head of Carlinya.  A raven could be one of two things as I see it: Black Ajah (raven = spy for the dark one) or Tower of Ravens, so she could be a Seanchan captive.  However, IMHO, she is Black due to some of her mannerisms and actions and Min's viewing.  I have yet to substantiate my allegations as far as actions go, but nit-picking will helpme find the subtle clues.  Better wait til this weekend to do it - we are out of school!


created: 2002-04-16 22:46:52
subject: <b>a reply to bayside</b>
body:
&quot;there were nine Aes Sedai (seven excluding Nynaeve and Elayne)in the Tarasin Palace in Ebou Dar during the hunt for the bowl of the winds, with all but Teslyn and Joline connected with the rebels. We also know (from comments in Winters Heart and the murder of Adeleas) that one of the rebel sisters is likely to be black.&quot;<br /><br />* the 7 Aes Sedai were Vandene, Adeleas, Teslyn, Joline, Merillile, Careane, and Sareitha *<br /><br />However, the note was sent to Merillile before Vandene and Adeleas arrived in Ebou Dar.  Thus we can mark off Vandene and Adeleas. And obviously we can mark out Teslyn and Joline.  <br /><br />It is important to know that Sammael told Graendal about the cache <i> before </i> the hunting party arrived from Salidar.  <br />This allows us to mark off Vandene and Adeleas.  <br /><br />I do not have LoC on me right now, so I can not supply any facts about Careane and Sareitha.  Where Careane and Sareitha already in Ebou Dar with Merillille, or did they come with the Salidar party?  If Careane and Sareitha were already in Ebou Dar with Merilille, then you may be quite correct.  Merilille may have shared the contents of the letter with them.  Whoever knows the answer to my question about Careane and Sareitha, please supply me the facts in another post.  However, if Careane and Sareitha were there with Merillille, this is more useful evidence for the Adeleas and Ispan case.<br /><br />Ok- about the quotes suggesting that one of the rebel sisters is black.  These quotes are not definitive.  The suspect in the Adeleas murder may have been a Kin member or a Sea Folk member, as my theory suggests.  <br /><br /><br />&quot;Vandene and Merilille know about the hunt for the cache, and as fellow rebels we can probably assume Sareitha and Careane know as well.&quot;<br /><br />When did Vandene learn of the cache??   Not until after Sammael made his comments to Graendal.  Thus Vandene isn't a real suspect.  I'm still unsure of Sareitha and Careane, as I said above.<br /><br />&quot;One of these four would be a very likely source for Sammael's knowledge about the angreal cache. You can check out all the theories about Adeleas killer for odds on the most likely one. I must admit this doesn't explain how Moghedien found out about them.&quot;<br /><br />Moghedien obviously learned of the cache through a df Kin member.  That is the strongest point in my theory.  If Moggy learned of the cache through a df kin member, then it increases the odds that Sammael also learned of the cache through a df kin person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 12:00:45
subject: <b>Nicely written...</b>
body:
..and yet I can't help feeling that you've left something out. I can't place it though...<br /><br />The first thing is that Moghedien sent Ispan and Falion to Ebou Dar way back in tFoH. I can't recall how that came about though... perhaps she does have a Darkfriend Kin spy. Moghedien was known in the AoL for conducting a huge spy network. That's really grasping for me though...I'd prefer some more proof.<br /><br />A problem with both Sammael and Moggy having a Kin spy would be that if a Darkfriend Kin did not know where to find the cache, she would know someone who would. Namely a member of the Knitting circle. I very much doubt that Sammael would hesitate in searching out one of them and interrogating them. Moggy has already been defeated by Nynaeve and is known for not confronting people. I'd say that she would pick a more cautious route. Probably by interrogating a member of the Knitting Circle via TAR. Though I suppose, whether that can be done or not remains to be seen. <br /><br />Anyway, you seem a lot like me in my approach to writing FAQs and Theories. Hae you read my one on the original Sitters? It's in the FAQ section. I know how you feel anyway, once I get a problem I just have to work at it till I'm satisfied with the result.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 10:48:42
subject: <b>Aes Sedai of the black</b>
body:
Sorry to nitpick,<br />but in your theory you mention that Alviarin(sp?) was the only sister who worked for more than one Chosen.  I would like to disagree with you.  In TGH, the prologue, we have the DFS with at least two &quot;witches&quot; ,according to Bors, in attendance.  There is obviously two AS working for Ba'alzamon/Ishy...  Jump to the end of that book, start of the next book, and Liandrin et al. steal the terangreal and flee the tower.  On who's orders?  Either Mesaana, Be'lal, Ba'alzamon, Lanfear possibly (she was seen in the tower as Else Grinwell and told Egwene where the &quot;belongings&quot; of the fled sisters was located).  In Tear, we have Liandrin and company working directly for Be'lal.  Moir kills Be'lal, Rand takes the Stone, Liandrin and company flee.  In Tanchico, Moggy picks them up and removes Liandrin and sells her to Suroth as a pet....  There are at least two Forsaken in this, but I would say that more than likely one of the AS at the DFS was one of the eleven who fled the tower.  That would make three forsaken that those sisters are working for...<br /><br />Another point I wanted to make that I saw someone else beat me to, was that Sammael was in Tel'aran'rhiod in TDR and TSR.  Remember that Hopper took Perrin to see one of the meetings between Sam, Mog, Rhavin, and Lanfear...<br /><br />Something that had been flitting around in my conciousness while I read your theory was as follows.  Experianced people in TAR can sense &quot;ripples&quot; coming from people who &quot;know they are in the dream&quot; ~Birgitte.  Mog can do this, Amys can do this, and Birgitte can do this.  Once they have found the ripples, they change TAR so that they are next to that person.  Sensing the ripples and following the person who knows they are in the dream may be something that was taught in the AOL, so Sammy might have done it with Nyneave and Elayne.<br /><br />Yet another possibility that occurred while I was writing this is that perhaps Mog/Sam saw a chance future which involved the location of the cache.  We know strong dreamwalkers can see the future within T'A'R (Perrin, Egwene) and that Moghedien knows the most about T'A'R and how to use it out of anyone still alive.  Perhaps that is not a random ability but something that can be controlled.  Again, perhaps it was something that was taught in the AOL, so Sammael might know how as well...<br /><br />Over all a rather good post.  Thanks for the mind-food.


created: 2002-04-18 15:14:48
subject: <b>a couple of thoughts....</b>
body:
first, this quote from WH, courtesy of Craig's web page:<br /><br />&quot;And even Vandene was sure the Kin numbered no Darkfriends among them. . . If there were any Darkfriends among the Kin, the Black Ajah would have known everything. So as much as they could wish otherwise, the killer was one of three women they had all grown to like. A Black sister in their midst. Or more than one.&quot; - p.196<br /><br />second, the Aiel Wise Ones knew of the Bowl from their Dreams....How about an  Aiel df as the source?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 18:07:48
subject: <b>I disregard that quote about there being no kin df's</b>
body:
that is more someone's opinion.  The BA might not neccessarily know of the Kin df agents.  That would explain why the BA doesn't know everything.  And what if the BA does everything?  Not that many people in the kin may have known about the cache to begin with.<br /><br />As for the Aiel wise ones knowing about the bowl.  Do you have a quote?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 21:17:29
subject: <b>as to the first point....</b>
body:
it was more than one person's opinion.  It was the consensus of Elayne, Vandene etc.  As to the second, I give you this:<br /><br /><br />&quot;There is one other I can tell you, though it may not concern you.  All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant.&quot;  &quot;Rain,&quot; that word still came clumsily too, &quot;coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hand picks it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.&quot; - Aviendha, to Rand, LOC p.436<br /><br />the context could indicate that the dreams had been discussed among the Wise Ones-hence Aviendha hearing.  It doesn't come out and say that, but the fact that this was the fourth dream that she told him about, and the implication in the above quote that others were discussed that she could not relate to him, leads to that possible interpretation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 23:05:20
subject: <b>another couple replies</b>
body:
1.  It may have been consensus, but it could be a mistaken consensus.  This quote has been a point of debate on the Adeleas faq.  It might actually be a good question to ask RJ.<br /><br />2.  As for the 2nd- THis is a good observation and one I missed, but this quote refers only to the bowl.  There is no reference to either Ebou Dar or to other 'angreals and sa'angreals' as Sammael mentioned.<br />   What it leads me to believe is that it was probably a symbolic interpretation of the bowl and its importance, but the wise ones did not know the other details.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 23:20:31
subject: <b>I agree with your assesment.....</b>
body:
at the time that Avi is telling Rand, the Wise Ones have no clue what the dream meant.  However very soon after this, Egwene was summoned to Salidar and made Amyrlin.  Elayne and Nynaeve told her about the bowl, how they found it using <i>need</i> and asked to be sent to Ebou Dar to look for it.  Now we know Egwene continued to visit the Dream to talk to Blair and Amys.  It's possible she could have mentioned what they found.  I have no proof of this and don't know if I even believe it's likely, but I'm just throwing it out as a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 16:54:15
subject: <b>dreamwalkers</b>
body:
I think it's unlikely that the Wise Ones would share wathever they have learned about the bowl with other Aiel or discuss it openly even in front of their gaishan.  They're secretive even with their own apprentices.  The darkfriend would have to be one of them.<br /><br />As for darkfriends among the Wise Ones close to Rand, it's not possible to completely rule it out but I find it highly unlikely at this point.  There have been too many situations where using such a darkfriend near Rand would have been extremely profitable to one or another Chosen, so one of them would have likley used this pawn already, especially Sammael who wanted Rand dead. I don't think Moghedien knew enough about Rand (not even his name at some point) to make it even remotely possible that she has learned about the cache from an Aiel spy. Similarly, Sammael was too often wrong in his assessments of Rand to make it likely that he had well-positionned spy among Rand's Aiel.   Beside, the Wise Ones' ways of keeping together and communicating through dreams and TAR regularly would make it risky for the Chosen and the DF herself to communicate. Finally, there is no clue that the Chosen do know anything about the existence of other &quot;natural&quot; dreamwalkers beside Egwene.  I guess they might be more cautious in TAR if they knew.<br /><br />I think that Matrimony's theory that the darkfriend is among the Kin or close to the Kin makes sense.  She doesn't even have to be a &quot;direct&quot; agent of Moghedien or Sammael.  DF are organized in circles and hierarchized. After Ishamael's death Sammael and Moghedien may have started to make discreet inquiries about rumors regarding hidden Power objects and instructed DF in their &quot;territory&quot; to relay to them (and only to them) everything they could learn about Power Objects.  In time, Moghedien and Sammael could have both learned that such a cache was rumored to exist in Ebou Dar. Neither seemed to know where the cache was exactly or I think that their agents would have acted much more swiftly than they did.<br /><br />This means the &quot;spy&quot; doesn't even have to be high in the Knitting Circle to have learned of &quot;rumors&quot;. She may not even have come close to Elayne and Nynaeve at any point or have left Ebou Dar with them.<br /><br />Beside a spy in Ebou Dar, I can think of another possibility as the source of Moghedien and Sammael's information and one that might explain why both were on the same trail around the same time.  One person was around long enough to have learned of the rumored caches like that long ago from his agents and noted down this information for further inquiry one day : Ishamael.  He is only remotely interested in Power objects, so it's quite possible that he didn't act on that information, especially if it was just a rumor, but he would note it down somewhere.  After his death, some of the Chosen might have search for and found his hiding place, grabbing what interested them among his possessions, information and objects.  That would sure explain Sammael's gholam and his stasis box that &quot;must have belonged to a Friend of the Dark&quot; as Graendal believed. The game he found is also very much the kind of cruel stuff Ishamael/Moridin might have liked to collect. And his interest in Ebou Dar started around the same time he found the stasis box. <br /><br />Graendal herself indulged in similar &quot;grave robbing&quot; in Illian after Sammael's death.  <br /><br />I don't remember what brought Moridin to Ebou Dar, why was he there already? I just remember that he reclaimed some of his agents there but not what made him go there in the first place. Maybe there's a clue in his POV in that chapter?<br /><br />Spy or stolen notes, it's also possible that only one of the two Chosen involved discovered the existence of the cache first-hand.  Moghedien is well-known by now for spying on the others. She could have learned about the rumored cache from her spying on Sammael or his lair.<br /><br />Finally, another possibility (not very likely) is that Moghedien was not on her own in Tanchico initially but that Ishamael had asked her to investigate rumored caches of Power Objects he has learned about along the years, among them the Tarasin Palace's and Ebou Dar's.  The Spider would have been a good choice for that kind of tasks, she's a loner and expert at spying and infiltration.   <br /><br />


created: 2002-04-19 23:52:26
subject: <b>Moridin was in Ebou Dar because....</b>
body:
of Moghedien.  Obviously he sent Moggy down there to go and try to receive the cache.  <br /><br />The reason I think this is because Ispan and Falion were working for Moghedien and now Moridin.  <br /><br />It is an excellent thought that they learned of this cache from Ishy.  Moridin clearly expressed some knowledge and indifference to thsi cache in his PoV. <br /><br />I still think that df Kin members are more likely, however.  It just seems unreasonable to me that Moridin would not have tried to retrieve the cache earlier, especially when there was no competetition to get it.  <br /><br />Moridin obviously has some interest in objects of power, otherwise he wouldn't have a stasis box to begin with.   Just look at how much he wanted the CK in WH.<br /><br />If Moridin had reason to suspect there was 'angreals and sa'angreals' in this cache, as he saw from Sammael's POV, he would have jumped at the chance.  <br /><br />Therefore, I think the cache was learned through df kin (at least in Moggy's case).  And you are right, the df kin person didn't even have to be near Elayne or Nynaeve.<br />As I mentioned in my theory, we can not rule out Sammael learning of the cache through dream world or through black AS.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-02 20:32:34
subject: <b>the cache</b>
body:
First of all, the Aes Sedai can't be ruled out.  I also remember reading somewhere in one of the books that none of the Kin aren't darkfriends.  While this doesn't make it so, it does provide doubt.  And lastly, you practically discount the whole need thing.  You are right about it needing to be genuine need.  However, you forgot to mention that that depends on the perception of the one using it.  If either of them felt that they truly needed that cache, they could have used need to find it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 01:25:51
subject: <b>kinswoman tortured for info</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a part in A Crown of Swords where Ispan is torturing a kin member, who is later found with her throat cut?  I'm pretty sure of this though I don't have the book in front of me.  <br />If I am remembering it correctly, this could mean that there are no df kin members, else why would the BA need to torture kin members for info?  They could just ask their df kin buddies where the cache was located, or if they didn't know, get them to find out.  It would be much easier, and less dangerous.  <br />I believe the BA found out about the existence of the cache through a BA hidden with Elayne's crew (as already explained by others), but needed to discover the location of the cache by torturing kw for info.


created: 2003-01-31 01:28:55
subject: <b>kinswoman tortured for info</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a part in A Crown of Swords where Ispan is torturing a kin member, who is later found with her throat cut?  I'm pretty sure of this though I don't have the book in front of me.  <br />If I am remembering it correctly, this could mean that there are no df kin members, else why would the BA need to torture kin members for info?  They could just ask their df kin buddies where the cache was located, or if they didn't know, get them to find out.  It would be much easier, and less dangerous.  <br />I believe the BA found out about the existence of the cache through a BA hidden with Elayne's crew (as already explained by others), but needed to discover the location of the cache by torturing kw for info.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-05 04:54:35
subject: <b>ridiculous.</b>
body:
If there was a darkfriend in the Kin that knew about the cache, why would Sammael/Moghedien waste time searching for it?  Wouldn't they know exactly where to find it?


created: 2004-10-17 14:45:40
subject: <b>DF Kin</b>
body:
I think it's very clear that there are no Darkfriends among the Kin.  Ispan and Falion interrogate the Kinswoman, Callie, who's death is reported directly to Reanne by somebody whom I forget.  She's obviously high-placed enough to know about the cache.  And think about what Falion says about her.  She says that when Callie ran away from the tower, she tried to steal a minor ter'angreal, and therefore would be the most likely to know about a cache in Ebou Dar.  Falion is White Ajah, after all, and her thought process is very logical indeed.  Unfortunately for her, she (or any Aes Sedai) doesn't know about the Knitting Circle.  The cache was very obviously a close-kept secret among the Circle.  The woman Mat follows to the Rahad is one of the Circle (Famelle? I forget).  While it's not 100% certain that there are NO darkfriends among the Kin, the Knitting Circle, the only ones that knew about the stash, is 100% Darkfriend free.  These &quot;rumors&quot; that you talked about that should have drifted down to the lower ranks would CERTAINLY be picked up by Callie, and therefore Ispan would know about it.<br /><br />Moggy was directed to stir Falion and Ispan into action by Moridin.   While he figures that getting his hands on sume AOL stuff would be good, it's not a high priority -- look at his POV in PoD.  He doesn't really care that the Wondergirls have ter'angreal or even angreal.  He only gets pissed about it when he learns about the Bowl of the Winds from the servant.<br /><br />But where the heck did Moggy get the information in the first place!  All the way back in FOH.  I have no explanation, sorry.  I still think that noone in the Kin told her, though.  I guess it'll have to be another RAFO.<br /><br />Curses.


created: 2002-04-14 21:01:55
subject: <b>Red on Black</b>
body:
I'm one of those who goes with the line of thinking that the red and black masks worn by said heros (see CoS) ties suspiciously in with the wording of certain prophecies which (for reasons of potential flaming) will remain unsaid. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-14 21:12:35
subject: <b>Could you enliten me here?</b>
body:
What procecy are you talking about, and who cares if you get flamed??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 22:18:03
subject: <b>?Huh? what potential theory, and why the hell are you afraid of getting flamed...</b>
body:
Umm...I don't got the books w/ me, but why are you afraid of getting flamed, oh no, someone might talk in caps to u<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />j/k, umm...i dunno, i like the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 10:19:02
subject: <b>to rhomb...</b>
body:
if you've got something to say, then say it.  i don't know why you're afraid of getting flamed.  i put an entire theory up about demandred being bashere and got flamed over 50 times! spit it out, man!


created: 2002-04-15 10:34:09
subject: <b>i dont think so</b>
body:
i dont think the seires will sast that long. Within 10 books onley about 2 or 3 years have pased so i doubt it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 10:36:42
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
Sorry i posted twice i submited it then i tried to stop and prevew it thin it kind of froze so i clicked submit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 10:47:26
subject: <b>hmmm Brought an interesting thought to mind</b>
body:
Your comment of all the heroes being reborn and not being called back by the horn made me think of something. Maybe the horn is more than an instrument to call back dead heroes. Perhaps when they are all reborn the sound of the horn will some how appeal to them in a way that they will follow Rand or Matrim or even Perrin to the Last Battle. Just a thought but with RJ who knows whats gonna happen.<br /><br /><br />You live and die, why not have fun with it.


created: 2002-04-15 11:04:27
subject: <b>And I know this may seem obvious, but I just noticed....</b>
body:
Shivan.....  Shiva, the Destroyer.<br /><br />Calian....  Kali, Death.<br /><br />Don't these also have something to do with the end of and Age in Hindu cosmology?  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 11:46:39
subject: <b>Horn of Valere</b>
body:
Maybe the Horn gives the Heroes (even the one's who are reborn) some magical powers. Remember the battle of Falme where Brigitte threw that arrow at the Seanchean ships!! <br /><br />Maybe it are these magical powers that make the Horn so important!! Maybe a theory should be written about this possible aspect of the Horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Belgium's best kept secret <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />!! vote for Wesley Clark !!<br /><br />give me a freeking job will ya!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 11:48:49
subject: <b>hindu Apocalypse</b>
body:
this is all i could find about Kali's roll in the end of an age in the hindu mythos<br /><br />From the Hindu Puranas:<br /><br /><br />Apocalypse for the Hindu is the natural ending of the world in the fourth age, the Kali Age. <br /><br />It is one of a series of apocalypses, each of which marks the end of one cycle and the beginning of another creation. The central figure in the story is Vishnu, the preserver God, into whose self the world is absorbed before being born again. <br /><br />Vishnu has already saved humanity on a number of occasions, symbolically appearing as a savior in many different forms. It is said that He will appear again soon, as Kalki, a white horse, destined to destroy the present world and to take humanity to a different, higher plane. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Where's that stupid sphinx when you need him? Here boy i'v got a riddle for ya! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> Sodomy non sapiens<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Priest of an Unknown Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 14:39:20
subject:
<b>Thanks....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Just another example of all the highly informed people here at wotmania.<br /><br />I am not that too well versed in Hindu beliefs. I am constantly amazed at RJ's ability to rework so many different sources into such an entertaining story and still be so original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 15:45:09
subject: <b>Your Welcome</b>
body:
Im new around here and just thought I'd help out. Couldn't find anything about Shiva's roll in the whole thing, oh well, glad to be of assistance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Where's that stupid sphinx when you need him? Here boy i'v got a riddle for ya! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> Sodomy non sapiens<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Priest of an Unknown Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 20:37:12
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
Maisic's earlier  comment got me thinking... What if when Mat blew the Horn at Falme it not only summoned the Heroes for that battle, but also set into motion the <i>rebirth</i> of all those Heroes for The Last Battle?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 21:59:38
subject: <b>Hindu lore</b>
body:
After seeing the theory propose the rebirths of Shivan and Calian as Elayne's children, I also thought of the Hindu deities Shiva and Kali.  Being a Hindu myself, it would be great to see if this theory pans true. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Shiva is known as the destructor of the universe, which is not as bad as it sounds!  Basically, he destroys the chakra (wheel) when the world becomes too evil or corrupt to continue, and takes away the suffering of the innocent and worthy.  The chakra is remade and a new era begins - sound familiar, WOT fans?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kali is another form of Parvathi, the wife and companion of Shiva. Kali, who unjustly gets stuck with a reputation of being bloodthirsty and evil (think Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, an affront to the Hindu religion), is actually the opposite. She is a destroyer of evil and ignorance (too bad she couldn't do this to the Indiana Jones script).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Gotta hand it to Jordan, he knows a lot!  That's probably why we read his books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-16 01:38:53
subject: <b>To Mad Ashaman . . .</b>
body:
Hmm . . . you got me thinking.  Perhaps the Horn of Valere has already been used at the last battle, and this WHOLE SERIES is one long (very long), drawn-out Tarmon Gaidan.  Whaddayathink? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Should I organ-a-zize my thoughts and come up with a theory? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There's really nothing that says the &quot;Last Battle&quot; must be one single battle, and the time encompassed by these books is a flyspeck in the turning of the Wheel.<br /><br />We comment so often on how little time time has passed since the beginning of the series (in the story, certainly not in the writing and reading and waiting, waiting, waiting).  I always chalked it up to Jordan telling a rich and interesting story that needs to attend each detail closely.  Perhaps this short span of time is because everything IS the Last Battle.<br /><br />We've seen no shortage of conflict during the whole series, and it's reasonable to assume things weren't this crazy before the series started.<br /><br />Just a tangent . . . good theory, tho.<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-16 17:57:20
subject: <b>My bad, the flaming was a joke...</b>
body:
I actually didn't mention it because I thought most had heard it and it was pretty obvious, if somewhat controversial.  Sorry bout that.<br /><br />The quote about Shivan and Calian in CoS (right book???) says that they would herald the end of an age and that one would wear a RED mask and the other would wear a BLACK (don't remember which one had which).  One of the most noted prophecies about Tarmon Gaiden says, &quot;RED on BLACK, his blood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.&quot;  I see this as saying that Elayne will give birth to &quot;Shivan&quot; and &quot;Calian&quot; (that will obviously not be their names) at The Last Battle.  Thus they will herald the end of an age and that prophecy will be fulfilled.<br /><br />Sorry, like I said, I'd seen this around here and thought most had seen it and would know what I was talking about right away.


created: 2002-04-16 20:57:12
subject: <b>Maybe the current age has already been ended?</b>
body:
Perhaps we have already seen the end of an age. The final sentence in WH is that the time of illusions is at an end.Nynaeve ended an age when she used the female Choedan Kal.If so, will Elayne's daughter herald the end of an age which is just in its infancy?


created: 2002-04-18 17:41:26
subject: <b>Age of Illusion</b>
body:
...refers to the island of Tremalking where the Chodal Kal is. I don;t think it means the age is over, although it could very possibly mean that the end is near. After all, it is.<br /><br />Maybe the whole seriesis part of Tarmon Gaidon. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Everyone is trying to prepar themselves, but the battle between good and evil is ragin on right now. Of course, technically the war is raging right now, but individual battles are yet to be faught. Of course, in the translation from the old toungue, war could have been mis-translated to battle.<br /><br />OK. I need book 10 real bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 11:58:02
subject: <b>Something to think about.</b>
body:
Alright I was thinking about the Horn since I read this theory and something came to mind that I couldn't forget. Throughout most the series we've heard that the Horn is only important to Mat cause he is the hornblower. I believe that Mat is not the only one that can blow the horn. It is common believe it is his horn now but, it was also believed that stilled channelers could not be unstilled well we see how that worked out. I believe that towards the end of the series all the heroes will be reborn, and Fain will have the horn, for he has sought it in the past, i think, he'll blow it thinking the heroes will come and help him only to realize they've been reborn and now that the horn is blown are near to unstopable.<br /><br /><br />I will not dance with your Lightning Aes Sedai, I'll hide behind Rand and cry like a baby<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-19 23:57:26
subject: <b>to rhomb....</b>
body:
That is the best explanation I have seen about the &quot;red on black&quot; his blood on Shayol Ghul thing.<br /><br />It actually makes good sense.  I suppose that the two heroes could be infants and still herald the new age.  <br /><br />Everyone always interprets that quote literally, but I prefer the non-literal translation better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 13:31:27
subject: <b>This came up a long time ago</b>
body:
I had wotmania ask the question of whether Elayne's children were Shivan and Calian a few months ago on the Quick Poll.<br /><br />The overwhelming response was, &quot;Who the heck are Shivan and Calian?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However, I agree--they almost have to be.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 10:13:28
subject: <b>And Aviendha's Quads?</b>
body:
Any idea what the &quot;something strange&quot; will be with Aviendha's four babies?  Siamese Aiel or something?<br /><br />And by the way, Rombencephalon, GREAT spot with the &quot;Red on Black&quot; quote.  If that's true, that pegs Tarmon Gaidon to about 8.5 months after the end of Winter's Heart.  Does this strike anyone else as really, really, really, really important?  If this hasn't already been posted as a theory, someone should submit it I think.   OA


created: 2002-05-04 18:37:02
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
I think that Elaynes children could be the heroes reborn but i had a question...is the ability to touch the One Power inheiritable? So what happens if her daughter becomes an AS and her son can touch the Power as well, what then? AND i dont think that the Last Battle is going to happen in 8.5 months. If Elayne's children are supposed to be there during the Last Battle, she sure as heck wont be taking them anywhere near it if they are still babies. <br />I think that her son will become attached to Logain and Logain in turn will teach her son some nasty little tricks of the trade of an Asha'man. Then when the kid is old enough he will help Rand in the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 06:34:08
subject: <b>Heroes Reborn</b>
body:
I think that heroes of the Horn only started to appear since Mat blew in the thing. Maybe that first battle in Falme was the beginning of the resurreection of the dead heroes, so that they can follow Mat during the Last Battle. The horn is now ineffective as all heroes are reborn, and my opinion is that we`re going to meet more and more new heroes.<br />Remember the DO is the Lord of the grave.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Shannath , the Eyeless-roaster.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 19:27:46
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
But if the heros just started being reborn then Olver could never Gaidan Cal (I KNOW I spelled that wrong....) Just a thought though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smiter of cornflakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Legolas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sporks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The one and only BogDog <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-03 15:41:27
subject: <b>His blood on Shayol Ghul</b>
body:
So if Shivan and Calian are going to be Elaynes' children and showing the end of the age.. Will the actually be born on Shayol Ghul? If they were, his blood would be on Shayol Ghul, without him actually bleeding. That was just a random thought I got while readin'this so...


created: 2003-06-13 15:20:55
subject: <b>I think your right</b>
body:
I without a doubt beleive that Elayne's children are the heroes reborn. But it's an interesting thought that his blood at Shadow ghul would be talking about his kids. Kind of funny, after him wishing he's die and everything...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Spinner <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Spin nightmares out of shadows<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-10 17:12:08
subject: <b>still...</b>
body:
Well if Matt blows the horn, maybe they'll come anyways, in their new bodies. An army of children coming to fight the Dark One...<br /><br />


created: 2005-07-24 15:57:50
subject: <b>Aviendha's children?</b>
body:
I really like this theory!  But I have a little tweak to make -- is it possible the twins could be Avienda's children?  I know Min says she sees A. having 4 children, but maybe if it's two that are reincarnations, that would explain why Min sees four -- there are four souls (assuming these hypothetical twins had two of their own souls as well as the souls of Shivan and Cali).  But if anyone else has ideas about the strangeness of Avienda's children, I'd love to hear them!


created: 2007-09-03 20:38:44
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I never thought about it like that, but it makes a lot of sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who draws it aout shall follow after,<br />what hand can grasp that fearful blade?&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 20:43:08
subject: <b>Random thought...</b>
body:
If we look at the weaves as nonviolent weaves from a peaceful AoL, then maybe &quot;Milking Tears&quot; refers to a form of desalination using the OP, thus providing drinkable water from salt water for the AoL's large population.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-16 21:20:07
subject: <b>I'm not surprised by this.</b>
body:
From the way RJ writes, I would not be surprised by this.  I like this theory.  It's kinda like a clue right in front of your nose that you miss.  It would be like RJ to put it that way.  Mentioning &quot;Spinning Earthfire&quot; by name would be too easy.  I wouldn't be surprised if they did say it by name, but it wouldn't be like RJ to do that.  I love the way this theory was put.  Good work!


created: 2002-04-16 21:33:46
subject: <b>Cows</b>
body:
By any chance, could milking tears refer to farming?  Maybe a way to get cows to be overproductive, or a way of creating tears (a drink maybe?)<br /><br />Actually, I though of something else as I write this.  Salt is very important to preserve meat, and there is salt in tears.  Maybe this spell allows a cow to produce milk and salt water?


created: 2002-04-17 00:57:14
subject: <b>Aligning the Matrix</b>
body:
Umm, isn't that the reverse of what Egwene did to those locks in TDR?  In other words, making metal stronger, kinda like power-wrought blades and such?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watching Firefly DVDs repeatedly...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 01:59:53
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Why would anyone worry about something so unimportant?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 04:11:42
subject: <b>ahem...</b>
body:
Um, well. All Asha'man is thaught &quot;Spinning Earthfire&quot; as part of their training.<br />Remember Taim ordering his Asha'man to create SPINNING rings of EARTH and FIRE, at a certain point (hint: wells).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 08:03:15
subject: <b>Not necessarily AoL non voilent weave</b>
body:
Didn't I read somewhere that although the Aol was a peaceful time, once the shadow war began, they learned all  about war very quickly and were very good at it, therefore Shai'tans theory about spinning rings of earth &amp; fire sounds more reasonable to me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toon Army:- The Creators choice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = Sir Bobby Robson IS the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 08:03:43
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
That's the commonly accepted theory about Spinning Earthfire.  However, in case you've forgotten that Taimandred was the commonly accepted theory about Demandred's whereabouts - and is no longer- it's important to note that no one ever actually calls the Asha'man's weave the name &quot;Spinning Earthfire.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 10:29:26
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I'm not sure if I buy this or not, but it is some nicely thought-out deduction.<br /><br />oh, and Burr, check the sig. We still exist!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 10:55:43
subject: <b>a few thoughts....</b>
body:
1.  No one said that these talents have to be of that much significgance.  1 or 2 of them might be very important, but they could just be little mysteries that RJ threw in the series and that he is never going to really develop.  Actually, the Sky Lights may have been of great importance in the AoL.  Obviously, the AoL was a very cultural time, and different forms of arts may have been very important.<br /><br />2. As for the AoL being a peaceful time and then turning into the war very quickly.  It is possible that one of these talents could be a talent of war- afterall the names are in the common tongue, not the old one (which is why Moghedien didn't really recognize the names when Elayne asked her).<br /><br />However, the duration of the AoL was much longer than the War and the breaking itself, and it was more peaceful.  Therefore , the cultures would have had more time to devote to developing and refining the talents.  But you are right, a certain talent for killing could have creeped out during the War of the Shadow.  Though, if you look at all the talents so far, none are really about death: seeing ta'vern, healing, delving, cloud dancing, aliging the matrix, foretelling, dreaming, etc.<br /><br />3.  As for the Ashaman spinning weaves of Earth and Fire.  Why would something that Taim teaches his new recruits be a Talent?  Perhaps, a more likely possibility would be a women doing the same thing to kill someone- because women are not naturally strong in Earth &amp; Fire.  However, the Sky Lights makes just as much sense.   <br />4.  It is also possible that a few talents developed during the breaking.  For example, let's look at the talent of delving.  Why is delving even a talent?  Delving is probably 2nd nature to most male channelers.  However, delving is especially difficult to female channelers.  Therefore, the talent of female delving may have developed during the breaking, when the females could no longer rely on male channelers.  Something similar could have happened with 'Spinning Earthfire.'<br /><br />However, like I said, the 'Spinning Earthfire' theroy I presented earlier makes just as much sense.  It is all just speculation.  However, my theory does have a certain puzzle in it that RJ, who studied physics, might be akin to using.  <br />As someone said above, why would RJ give us all these mysterious names and then just feed us the answers.  That is definitely not RJ's style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 12:04:27
subject: <b>What's a Talent?</b>
body:
I think the definition of &quot;Talent&quot; is somewhat blurred, and I think it's been that way since before the breaking.<br /><br />I recall a Moghedien point of view (just before she balefire's Nynaeve's boat), where she thinks to herself that her life would have been easier had her Talent for compulsion been stronger.  She calls it a Talent, but I'm of the opinion that things like Compulsion &amp; Healing are nothing more than immensely complicated weaves, of which some channelers are more adept at than others.<br /><br />Then there are the Talents that aren't really associated with the One Power - seeing ta'veren, Foretelling, Dreaming, etc.  Maybe Perrin's wolf thing falls in that category as well . . . .<br /><br />I think that Aes Sedai of both the 2nd &amp; 3rd age have used the term &quot;Talent&quot; to describe the the more difficult/uncommon uses for the One Power, and in the process incorrectly associated the true Talents with the One Power.  Dreaming is a perfect example.


created: 2002-04-17 12:08:53
subject: <b>you may be right, but I do not think so</b>
body:
I was always under the impression that milking tears was something like what Semirhage does. i.e. torture<br /><br />that aligning the matrix is making metals stronger<br /><br />and that spinning Earthfire is what the Ashaman did at Dumai's Wells... I mean... it only stands to reason<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 16:32:08
subject: <b>Funny</b>
body:
hahahahahahaha  milk and salt water!  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah  boy your funny hahahahahahahahahah  stop hahahahahahahah  please hahahahahahahah.  <br /><br />Theory was interesting but some of the comments were so laughable I was crying salt water tears...  hahahahahahahahah not again! hahahahahahah   ahahahahahah   hahhahaha.  <br /><br />Okay I'm back,  but please not so much comedy.  The salt water tears are staining my desk and burning my eyes. hahahahahahah hahhaha ahahhah ahhahahha........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 16:58:45
subject: <b>Gack</b>
body:
Does anyone read the books before posting?<br /><br />Lord of Chaos<br />Mass market paperback<br />Page 1004<br />Paragraph 3<br />&quot;Asha'man,&quot; Taim's voice rang out, &quot;<b>ROLLING</b> ring of Earth and Fire!&quot;<br /><br />Spinning Earthfire is more likely a way of terraforming the landscape to suit your needs or to make buildings. Melting the bedrock and forming it into something else in a way akin to vulcanism.<br /><br />Something like that in the hands of insane male channelers that are out of control would raise mountains and move seas.<br /><br />As for the rest, I have no idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 17:24:26
subject: <b>going along with the last comment....</b>
body:
...maybe Spinning Earthfire is how the Stone of Tear was made.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 01:05:54
subject: <b>IMHO...</b>
body:
Spinning Earthfire is an extremly complex combination of weaves used for building purposes...for example the Stone of Tear<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 08:07:31
subject: <b>re:</b>
body:
I doubt that the aessedai in the aol used the power to create fireworks and even if they did i doubt they would give a name to this ability.  I agree with the other post that the ability is mostly a male ability (that is why moghedien never heard of it) and possibly deal with construction or something similiar


created: 2002-04-18 10:56:23
subject: <b>I agree with Daemione.....</b>
body:
I think you need to define 'talent.'<br /><br />One is the usual modern day version, as in:  Joe is a talented musician.  I think this applies to the channelers in WOT, the ability to be a good healer is a talent, but anyone can learn the rudimentaries of healing.<br /><br />On the other hand there are 'Talents', in this I've capitalized it to show the difference.  A Talent is something that is special to the individual and cannot be learned in any way.  For example, Foretelling, cannot be learned/taught you have it or you don't.  As with the musician example above anyone can strum a guitar it takes no talent, but to foretell the furture is a Talent that is only born into some people, you can't be a bad foreteller, but you can be a bad musician.<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-18 11:13:40
subject: <b>Sky Lights</b>
body:
In TBWB, it talks about the lost talents, and it talks in depth about the Seanchan. I don't think RJ can come back and say Spinning Earthfire was rediscovered and called Sky lights. Another point against this is that Sky Lights seem to be something most damane can do. They always celebrate victories by having sky lights, and whats-her-face wants to buy a damane so she can have sky light shows. That just seems like they are too common to be called a talent.<br /><br />I don't believe it is what the Asha'man did at Dumai's Wells, either. And for the same reasons.<br /><br />Spinning Earthfire is what the weave for the gateway transformed into in TPoD when Elayne tried to unravel the flows to keeps the Seanchan from learning how to travel. Coming up sometime soon, she will realize what she did and learn to recreate it, thereby re-learning the lost talent. There is absolutely no evidence for this, so in cannot be refuted! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 14:26:33
subject: <b>Ter'angreal?</b>
body:
Allining the Matrix is clearly referred to by Moghedian as a way of making metals stronger. Perhaps by binding the atoms or something. As for Spinning Earthfire I agree with the idea of it being used to terraform the landscape as although it is logiacl the Seanchean would have lost the true name for it during the breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><u><b>Owner</b></u> of Mat Girl - I have it in <i>writing</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>'Wight now I imagwin your feewing a bit wike Awice, tumbewing down the wabbit hoewl'</i>-<b><u>Morpheus</u></b><br /><br /><b><u>I am <i>NOT</i> a Zoo!</u></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 18:03:36
subject: <b>Why is travelling considered a talent then?</b>
body:
another fork in this argument<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 06:49:55
subject: <b>Arrrrrrrgg... Mountain out of a molehill.</b>
body:
Ok... So, Spinning Earthfire. Think about this name for a minute. Would you want someone building your house (castle, stone of tear, ect) with something called SPINNING EARTHFIRE? hell no. IMO, it definatly sounds like a weapon, offensive, whatever. Also: Of course it's been lost, only women are keeping track of this stuff (AS), and they're WEAK in Fire and Earth! Gee... I wonder if spinning EARTHFIRE has anything to do with EARTH or FIRE. The two elements that chicks suck at. I'm pretty sure that Taim and his boys have got that one under raps. Also: The new Tar Valon Tower is going to be crafted with the one power, Elaida says... (COS, page 3) and if they don't have Spinning Earthfire, well, nuff said.<br /><br />As fer talents...<br /><br />Maybe different weaves are kinda lumped into different catagories... If you check out the WOTRPG (hardly a reliable source, I know), they have all the weaves divided into different catagories, which people can have talents in. To have a talent in travelling would be skimming, portals, maybe those wacky portal stone thingies, the ways, who knows. To have a talent in throwing firey death, you'd probibly be pretty good at anything that could be considerend firey death (fireballs, maybe lightning bolts, Balefire etc etc etc).<br /><br />Talents are just like little specialties that affect a group of different weaves, maybe. I dunno, I though that was pretty obvious, and assumed... or maybe I'm totally wrong, who knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 09:48:26
subject: <b>good intentions</b>
body:
i like the theory, but i think the theories raised in counterpoint merit much more credit.  spinning earthfire as a weapon or terraforming the earth seems much more realistic than simple fireworks/sky lights.  of course, RJ always leads us in the wrong direction, so who knows.<br /><br />some good points: if traveling is considered a lost talent, yet can be taught/learned, then why can't foretelling or making ter'angreal be taught/learned as well?<br />


created: 2002-04-19 10:09:52
subject: <b>It must be a weapon</b>
body:
something with a name like 'Spinning Earthfire' has to be a weapon. Just because it came from the AOL dosn't meen it was peacefull, they did have armies and shocklances before the DO was freed after all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Where's that stupid sphinx when you need him? Here boy i'v got a riddle for ya! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> Sodomy non sapiens<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Priest of an Unknown Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 15:44:30
subject: <b>The AOL was peaceful</b>
body:
I read the books as showing the AOL was completely peaceful before the DO was released. They had to learn how to wage war, it was mentioned somewhere. And Ishy told Lews Therin about how they took the game of swords and turned it to killing.<br /><br />You spin webs, material, glass and so on. All nice, peaceful constructive things. I'm not discounting it as a weapon, but the name leads itself both ways. And a nice way of making rocks do what you want can easily be turned into a weapon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 14:13:58
subject: <b>the beginning is not the end...</b>
body:
Has anyone considered the possibility that Spinning Earthfire could have had a peaceful beginning (putting on skylight shows, landscaping your yard, whatever) and been corrupted into a weapon after the war began?<br /><br />Just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I don't really have an opinion either way on this one.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Anaelle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-26 18:24:20
subject: <b>Don't know what Spinning Earthfire is, but...</b>
body:
Sky Lights are better than fireworks according to the above mentioned quote by the Seanchan. <br /><br />This is from CoS pg 649.<br />&quot;Low across the roofs of taverns and shops and spired palaces he directed flows of Air and Water, Fire and Earth and Spirit, turning as he did so. He did not try to weave the flows, simply swept them out over the city and a good mile out over the marsh. From five other towers came flows sweeping low, and where they touched one another uncontrolled, light flashed and sparks flared and clouds of colored steam burst, a display any Illuminator might have envied&quot;(can you say... runonandonandonandonandon sentence?)<br /> <br /> That, I believe, is skylights. Undirected weaves coming into contact with other undirected weaves. No obvious use in combat, so probably not all damane would know the making of it, but pretty enough that some would have to learn to entertain the blood and such.<br /><br />As for Spinning Earthfire, well, what could Earthfire be? Maybe Fire from the Earth? Or Lava in other words. So maybe Spinning Earthfire is the ability to find the lava( requiring strong Earth skills which would explaing why it is gone) and air (to spin it). Earth, strong in men, Air, strong in women. Not a very common combination which could explain why it was called a Talent.


created: 2002-12-30 22:37:18
subject: <b>i agree.</b>
body:
They probably don't know the name because it was lost in the Breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~TMM<br /><br />Commander of the Lemurs, Destroyer of Worlds<br /><br /><b><font color="red">This message was edited by 100 lemurs at 25:25:25 AM 13/39/3000</font></b><br /><br /><font color="red">Hail the lemurs. They know where you live.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-25 19:43:49
subject: <b>what about the part in the fires of heaven</b>
body:
i know this is probably way off but oh well. what about in FoH when rand made the tops of the hills erupt in fire, taking off the top parts of the hills? hey the hills are the EARTH and he made them explode in FIRE.


created: 2003-04-28 19:10:55
subject: <b>Too easy</b>
body:
The ideas that spinning Earthfire might be what the Asha'men are being taught, but it all seems too easy to me. RJ would probably say that it was right there in front of our faces, and that we just werent looking at the clues. But that doesn't usually mean we just have to connect the words does it? No, not usually. I doubt that this Talent is going to come up again or be very relevent, but good ideas, i like them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 18:14:03
subject: <b>Talents</b>
body:
Actually, Healing might be a Talent. It is very common among Aes Sedai, and like other talents, comme in different strengths. However, the question has been raised of why some talents appear in some people, while that is not the case for Healing. Well, it is the case.<br /><br />Aiel Wise Ones do not have the Talent for Healing ( Ironic, seen how they descended from practitioners of the Way of the Leaf, you'd think it was one weave they would surely learn. )<br /><br />I've never seen Seachan Damane Heal either. And Seanchan Sul'dam probably never ask it of Westlander Damane, because they don't expect it to exist.<br /><br />So, it would be reasonable to assume that the Seanchan Sky Lights are indeed a Talent, maybe even Spinning Earthfire, even though noone else does it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 13:53:38
subject: <b>possible, but I don't think it's likely</b>
body:
First off, the Seanchan are going to be quite busy with a Sea Folk rebellion that Mat set up by freeing one of the Sea Folk damane.  Also, IIRC, the Seanchan ships aren't really all that fast and with someone like Bayle as Captain and a few Aes Sedai to help with the winds and such, they shouldn't have any problems outrunning and pursuing ships.  I really doubt that Mat has anything to do with the Jendai Prophecy, otherwise we probably would have gotten some reference to it already.  To be honest I'm not even sure they'll leave by sea, and even if they do I think they'll head to Illian.  Also heading to Tremalking will just put them deeper into Seanchan territory with no real way out, other than your possibly coming out at the Tower of Ghenji, assuming there's a doorway on Tremalking, just don't see that happening.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 14:45:27
subject: <b>i just dont think there is another doorway</b>
body:
but it's a good thought about tremalking.  i guess we'll see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 16:44:21
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
I doubt there is another doorframe though, unless one leads back to the Aelfinn or Eelfinn. If so, they'd be like, &quot;Dammit Mat! Why are you back here? We told you to leave after you ate all of our cashews and frozen burritos!&quot; Seriously though, Tremalking is as good a place as any, and it's about time a character visited. All right! Mat's off to Jama...err...Tremalking!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 17:07:32
subject: <b>Why Not A Second Tower?</b>
body:
I think it's a good possibility that they end up heading for Tremalking - after all, not only do we have the comments about the boat, but Jordan has definitely written enough about it to make it a likely scene of some of the books at the very least.<br /><br />However, I have two things to add:<br /><br />1. We don't know that Tremalking isn't in Seanchan hands.  We just don't have evidence that it is.  There's a big difference.  We only know what Jordan chooses to tell us.  For all we know, a huge armada could be sailing from the Land of the Madmen to conquer the rest of the world.<br /><br />2. If there are two sets of 'Finns, the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and two twisted doorways that lead to their realms, why could there not be two towers?  Perhaps the second tower is on Tremalking and they just have to run around it three times...<br /><br />Mat will have plenty of time on that ship to perfect his gunpowder, too...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 20:47:45
subject: <b>Interesting to Ponder</b>
body:
I hadn't really thought about 'What Next' for Mat yet, save Talmanes' focusing on the urgency the Band feels to be with him. <br /><br />The intriguing part of this, of course, is Tuon.  Do they really want to waltz her into the heartlands, where she has the intelligence and training to do some seriously effective spying? <br /><br />I think it's too early by far to think Tuon will just chuck over her role in the Empire.  This is going to be a tempestuous courtship, to say the least!  Mat's going to have to do some non-deliberate heavy impressing for Tuon to think he's more than spittle on the bottom of her boot.  She may feel satisfaction of destinies aligning, she may find him attractive -- but it's a far, far different thing to regard him as an equal. <br /><br />Not that this is going to matter to Mat, at least for awhile.  He's not at all happy with events, and I can't see him TRYING to impress her -- unless it's only to get the smirk off her face.


created: 2002-04-17 22:05:42
subject: <b>No way, Bayle will stuff up again!!!</b>
body:
They won't get to Tremalking cos Bayle has shown that he can't use a ship properly when he has planned to.<br /><br />Whitebridge he left without Rand &amp; Mat when a fade came after them<br /><br />Falme he left without Egwene, Nyn and Min after they had organised to leave with him.<br /><br />Tanchico, while he did leave with the Male ter'angreal &amp; Egeanin, he got captured by other Seanchan, became sojihn, had the MT taken away &amp; then lost his own boat.<br /><br />THis to me does not inspire confidence.<br /><br />It is a pattern. Bayle will get away on a boat, while Mat &amp; co will go out over land. <br />Bayle &amp; Egeanin will get captured &amp; in a very romantic scene, be impaled together.<br /><br />No Tremalking, that comes when the seriously strong channellers form a circle &amp; use the HUGE sarangreal thingy &amp; Nyn shall be killed.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster of the Blue Riders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-17 22:58:00
subject: <b>Olver in the Stables</b>
body:
We left them in WH when they were headed a mile up the North Road to pick up Olver, Lopin &amp; Co in an abandon stable.<br /><br />I doubt they would then turn around and go back to Ebou Dar and steal a boat, especially with what Nestelle &amp; Beslin creating fantastic diversions. <br /><br />East to Illian through the bushlands is where they will go because:<br />Mat has a destiny with Illian and the HoV<br />Nestelle &amp; Co will head to the nearest safe port - Illian (I have no doubt Mat will meet her again)<br />Tuon in the 9 councils hands would stop the Seanchan invasion (perhaps even binding them)<br />Psychic Talmanes can head directly south through lands not taken by the Seanchan avoiding a disastrous loss (non-channeling armies days are numbered, just ask the Whitecloaks)<br />Setalla Anan is headed their to find her family<br />East takes them through Elayne's Gateway Bomb Area giving Tuon a hint as to the suldam secret.<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-17 23:03:26
subject: <b>Interesting idea, but...</b>
body:
I don't think that there will be another Tower or Doorway there. There are snakes and Foxes in the game, and people can only visit them once.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 01:02:50
subject: <b>IMHO...</b>
body:
Spinning Earthfire is a method of combining the weaves of earth and fire for building purposes....for example the Stone of Tear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 01:04:38
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
That last message was supposed to be on the Spinning Earthfire Theory...sorry<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 07:49:25
subject: <b>First chapter of SR</b>
body:
Seanchan were ruling Tremalking during SR and Suroth used it as staging area for surviving troops of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />ever victorious army<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> and I am almost certain they still have at least somekind garrison in there. After all Seachans want all Randland and their attitude is that any place that has ever been part of their empire will always be part of their empire, so going in there would not be very good idea.


created: 2002-04-18 08:02:24
subject: <b>re: mat bayle domon, tuon, and tremalking</b>
body:
first i don't believe that mat and co will be taking a ship.  Why because all their plans were about getting through the gates and second they have no boat so they would have to steal one.  And from what i read the bay is packed and extremely well guarded.  That leaves them moving on land.  Where will they go.  My best bet is that they are heading to Illian.


created: 2002-04-18 09:33:46
subject: <b>Tuon and the Damane</b>
body:
Just to respond to my own theory... actually to something somebody's comment brought up, about passing through Ground Zero outside Ebou Dar.  I haven't seen it mentioned, but Tuon has the ability to learn to channel, no?  I believe it's implied in WH.  I wonder how that will affect things, when the Daughter of the Nine Moons turns out to be a marath'damane... interesting in any case.


created: 2002-04-18 11:33:51
subject: <b>Not that my opinion is worth much...</b>
body:
I really like this theory.  It would give us insight on Tremalking, while getting closer to having the Seanchan closer to being on Rands side after all.  Tuon is reffered to as the Empresses daughter somewhere, and as the daughter of the nine moons (whatever the hell that is).  So Matt escapes with Tuon (due to the fact he is lucky...the well...RAFO?)


created: 2002-04-18 11:43:38
subject: <b>Yes, Tuon can learn to channel.</b>
body:
In WH it mentioned that Tuon had taken the test to be sul'dam, which shocked<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> the Court of Nine moons. She tested positive, which means she <b>can</b> learn to channel. When that comes up in discussion with the sul'dam who already know they can learn, every one will be in for a bigger shock<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 14:06:22
subject: <b>How many hints do you need?</b>
body:
Mat will head north-east with the circus, did anyone not notice that he spent about three chapters of WH there?<br />He will discover how to make guns or at least cannons of aludra.


created: 2002-04-18 20:28:42
subject: <b>Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
corvidmartum!  Open your eyes man!  Have you not read the comments!  unbelievable!!  I can't understand!  Wake up corvidmartum!!!!!  Think before you post a comment please!  <br /><br />Spudman is on the right track as well as some others.  They will not leave via a boat.  I'll SPELL IT OUT FOR CORVIDMARTON AND ANYONE ELSE WHO IS DREAMING OF MERMAIDS AND THE SEA.  THEY HAVE AREADY LEFT ON FOOT HEADING NORTH.  I'LL SAY IT AGAIN.  THEY HAVE ALREADY LEFT ON FOOT HEADING NORTH.  THEIRS A GOOD CHANCE THEY'LL TRAVEL WITH THE CIRCUS FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AS SPUDMAN POINTED OUT ABOVE.  <br /><br />Theirs no time left for laying on the beach and drinking beer.  We also don't need anymore filler.  Who cares about Tremalking or the seafolk for that matter.  BORING!  Lets get on with the series already.  How many books do you want corvidmarton?  We definatley don't need 300 pages of Mat and Toun playing survivor on Tremalking.  The series finally started to pick up again in WH. lets not slow it done again please!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 23:33:51
subject: <b>Mah</b>
body:
I think <b>Talmanes</b>' predictions are going to turn out correct, or closest to correct.<br /><br /><b>PTH</b> - Suroth's forces regrouped at Cantorin, in the Aile Somera, not Tremalking.<br /><br />And I'm heavily doubtful about there being either a doorway or another Tower on Tremalking. We've got the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, we don't really need the Ielfinn, Oelfinn, Uelfinn and sometimes Yelfinn too. There's been no mention made in the books or the Guide of any sort of Tower on Tremalking yet, leading me to believe there <i>probably</i> won't be any such structure there.<br />But then, RJ has introduced unheralded plot devices before, like those stupid Wells.<br /><br />Double-and, I'd rather have 300 pages of Mat and Tuon than 300 pages of Perrin, Faile and Morgase. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 12:10:05
subject: <b>I agree 'D'</b>
body:
I'd rather have 300 pages of Mat and Tuon than Perrin, Faile and Morgase.  I just don't want 300 pages of Mat and Tuon of on Tremalking.  Lets not take anymore detoures RJ.  Get on with the story, theirs enough to deal with as it is.  I'm not interested in another 10 books.  Your right 'D' we already have Perrin and Faile to stink up the story.  Lets not have a double date.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 13:40:27
subject: <b>northward bound</b>
body:
Hey, here's a thought, In book ten rand is in an ubercoma nyneve is stilled, the two towers get into a fight and then decide to fight each other, and mat HEADS NORTH! He then meets up with sevanna and co, rescuses faile, brings her to perrin, and then they go on a double date in tremalking. HA!<br /><br />By the way, What would be wrong with another 10 books?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">taintedman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> king of my own little universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> flamer of stupid posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 14:20:44
subject: <b>I was kind of hoping he was heading for Tar Valon</b>
body:
I was kind of hoping he was heading for Tar Valon to help out at the siege(if that will occur in the next book). If I remember correctly(which is not very likely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) there was one dream where the White Tower crumbled and Mat was involved in that somehow.


created: 2002-04-20 15:22:08
subject: <b>To Columbo....</b>
body:
Actually, they haven't headed north yet.  They haven't even left the Tarasin palace yet!  <br /><br />Where did you get the idea of them heading north from?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 22:23:12
subject: <b>Heading SOUTH</b>
body:
Not heading north Mat.  Okay then heading South?  Or how about West?  Hang on maybe their heading East?  Obviously your looking to argue.  So you pick which direction and I'll agree with you okay!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 20:08:47
subject: <b>true...........</b>
body:
interesting theory.  Though i think that mat and tuon will plan someway to join the seanchan to rand maybe......


created: 2002-04-27 09:30:53
subject: <b>I Take It All Back</b>
body:
Is it fickle of me to disagree with myself?  I re-read parts of WH and I agree now with my critics; they're definitely not getting out by boat, they're going north.  Goes to show that it's important to re-read carefeully before making predictive theories.  My reasoning was, what was the point of having Bayle Domon and Egeanin if there was not going to be a boat involved, but once I realized that Tuon can channel, the point became obvious.  Egeanin plus the meek sul'dam plus the Aes Sedai plus Tuon equals end of Seanchan forever.  Cheers for pointing out the flaws in the theory, everyone.  Although this just leaves the question, what the hell is with Tremalking.


created: 2002-05-15 10:56:55
subject: <b>CoT cover art cinches it</b>
body:
The new cover art for CoT shows Mat and Co. riding horses. I think it is probably safe to assume they go overland. But, of course, you already knew that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 17:44:35
subject: <b>Orangeajah</b>
body:
Your theory resulted in some good ideas.  Good work.  I was always against them going to Tremalking.  Although I can't rule out the possibility of them not making use of Bayle Domon and a boat.  Does Bayle ever go far without using a boat?  <br /><br />Also glad to see that you can take criticism well.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 01:08:15
subject: <b>Seanchan do hold Tremalking</b>
body:
Sorry to burst your theory bubble but the Seanchan do hold Tremalking.  Remember that is where High Lady Suroth was in the Prologue of I think the fourth book.  She even said the name of the island.


created: 2002-04-19 16:03:08
subject: <b>But maybe</b>
body:
perhaps she's not black ajah, but maybe she didn't take the 3 oaths at all in the first place. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 16:16:29
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I don't think Cadsuane is BA at all, yet I also like the idea of her being free of her Oaths. After all that would make sense. For someone as legendary to all other Aes Sedai as the Aes Sedai are to the general public, there were likely times where she survived by doing/saying something that the Three Oaths would have prevented. All in all it is a good theory, and Cadsuane not being bound by the Oaths really appeals to me as an idea<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 16:21:30
subject: <b>Perhaps...</b>
body:
...it is truth because they would rather do as she says than face the consequences for disobeying Cadsuane. Just a thought.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-19 16:44:48
subject: <b>I agree with drgnrbrn316</b>
body:
I think they really wish to do so, or at least to leave Cadsuane's presence. When Casuane said these words, Harine got angry and was about to argue until her Sailmistress whispered something in her ear, and then the both of them left without any fuss.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 16:45:11
subject: <b>the three oaths</b>
body:
it is a good idea that Cadsuane has not taken the three oaths, although she seems to take great pains to make sure others take them.<br /><br />but it states again and again in the books, and in new spring that the person has to belive that it is the truth and they can say it, if the mind is as disiplined as cadsuane's then it should be easy to alter her perseption and then technically lie, as long as they know it to be true, or perseive it to be.<br /><br />Altahlus<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-19 16:56:07
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
Yeah i still think she never took the oaths, but I agree, if she did, her mind is strong enough to be able to convince herself that something is true and she can say it. I'll go through her passages and see if i can find any evidence of this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 18:10:10
subject: <b>***</b>
body:
&quot;Escort these two to their rooms,&quot; Cadsuane commanded. &quot;They wish to fast and meditate on civility.&quot;<br /><br />IMO, that doesn't qualify as a lie, it's said and meant with a dose of sarcasm, not as a statement.  Cadsuane says it the way she would say &quot;they have to fast and meditate on civility because I order it&quot; and she knows very well that everybody in the room get that message loud and clear. Also, she might be convinced that because she orders it the Seafolk women *will* wish to meditate and fast, the same way two novices would.  As an Aes Sedai, she only has to be convinced of her power over them to make the statement true. Most people would indeed wish to do what an angry Aes Sedai just ordered them to do, especially when the AS is Cadsuane!<br /><br />Personally, I believe that there's enough evidence to conclude that Cadsuane isn't BA.<br /><br />I can't believe that she has not taken the Oaths or has been freed from them and kept it secret.  It simply doesn't fit with her personality.  Just look at how she considers Nynaeve because she wasn't raised to the shawl according to tradition. I'm sure she's not the kind to lower the standards for herself while judging the others differently.  If for her Nynaeve is not AS because she wasn't raised properly and is not bound by the Oaths, then Cadsuane is bound by those Oaths or wouldn't consider herself a Sister either.  To me, she's clearly that kind of person.  She's also extremely conservative when it comes to AS traditions and values and I'm sure that has she been freed of the Oaths somehow, she would have swear them back ASAP.  Most AS would do it IMO, they firmly believe in those Oaths.<br />


created: 2002-04-19 23:54:40
subject: <b>Agreed,</b>
body:
I don't think she was neccessarily lying. Just because she says that, does not mean she meant it as an opinion. I'd subscribe tothe theory that she is more or less giving an indirect order to them. But that's just me. Who knows, she could have a talent for mind reading and then saw that they really wanted to meditate<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> j/k on the last part. Somehow I don't think that's true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-20 00:04:21
subject: <b>Not True</b>
body:
If you read the chapter you can see the Sea Folk are not done talking yet and they have no wish to leave. I AM sure Cadsuane also knew this. Regardless if she was being sarcastic or not she spoke words that she knew were untrue. But hey thats just my opinion =p.


created: 2002-04-20 02:40:18
subject: <b>Sarcasm is not an untruth</b>
body:
Being sarcastic and making threats is something Aes Sedai can do. I have seen a quote from RJ on the matter and he specifically said that an Aes Sedai can say things like &quot;If you don't I'll tie your ears in a knot&quot; when she intends to do no such thing, because it isn't meant to be a true statement, and this is obvious. I would assume the same with sarcasm; it isn't meant to be taken seriously so they aren't actually lying. As Burr says, there is no intention to decieve. So Cadusane could have either been doing that, or she could have thought of it as an order. She was indirectly telling them that was what they wanted, or else, so in her mind it wasn't a lie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-20 03:01:43
subject: <b>&quot;The truth an Aes Sedai tells you . . .</b>
body:
. . . isn't always the truth you think you hear.&quot;  I'm largely with Dom on this one.  Just because you can't lie doesn't mean you cannot express displeasure at some Sea Folk upstarts or make a joke.<br /><br />However, I believe it's very possible that Cadsuane is no longer bound by the Three Oaths anyway.  She and Verin could be &quot;Lightfriends,&quot; like so many have suggested.<br /><br />If Cadsuane were no longer forced to tell the truth, it would give her a great advantage over other Aes Sedai, especially when it came to supporting the Dragon Reborn.  As perhaps THE ranking Aes Sedai aside from the Amyrlin, few rarely oppose her commands openly anyway, so a little white lie could find its way into her dialogue every now and again.<br /><br />I think the reason she so strongly wishes Elayne and Nynaeve to take the Three Oaths is because (unlike her) they have not yet EARNED the right to deviate from Aes Sedai custom.  It's something like a poet, who changes words around or juxtaposes them in ways that in prose would make no sense.  A poet would have earned the right to manipulate language (okay, not the greatest of analogies, but you get my point).<br /><br />I too cannot believe Cadsuane is Black Ajah.  If, in fact, she has somehow removed the Three Oaths, or at least the Oath that requires her to tell only the truth, I do not necessarily see that as evidence of being Black Ajah at all.<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-20 03:31:51
subject: <b>Cadsuane....</b>
body:
seems to be a &quot;Mother Hen&quot; if you ask me. She knows what she wants and no one will deviate her path, or at least not by much or for long. She also doesn't seem to be dissobayed much. Personaly I think that some of her status may have rubbed off on the sea-folk, and to her they are novices.


created: 2002-04-20 07:06:39
subject: <b>I shall have to agree with Ruriha Sedai</b>
body:
besides, Cadsuane cannot be free of the three oaths, someone would have been bound to comment on that she did not have the Aes Sedai look if that were the case.<br />Sarcasm explains it, I think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-20 10:45:12
subject: <b>In general</b>
body:
I like the theory, but I like Burr's (and others') response a bit better.  Actually, where it gets interesting is the wording:  &quot;Say no word that is untrue&quot;  IS, grammatically, very different from &quot;Say no word the speaker believes to be untrue.&quot;  <br /><br />If the first is right, an Aes Sedai could not even be simply wrong or misinformed. They could not recite something that is untrue -- which would be a subtly powerful divination tool.   The second one leaves loopholes wide enough for a grolm to lumber through. <br /><br />As others mentioned 'jokes', I won't. <br /><br />Another interesting aspect is can an Aes Sedai WRITE a lie? That would technically work under either of the conditions above.<br /><br />Thus, sisters could write a note that reads, &quot;Elaida Rho'davian (sp) frolics with Trollocs&quot; and hand it to an astonished ruler, who would of course ask if it was true, to which the AS could say, &quot;You saw what I wrote&quot; and it be technically correct.


created: 2002-04-20 10:52:32
subject: <b>Main thing about Cadsuane</b>
body:
Where the hell was she?<br /><br />How does a legendary Aes Sedai fade away?  Even the youngsters recognized her.  Yet harken back to TGH, when Suian Sanche is seemingly reprimanding Moiraine, telling her that the sisters clamor for her return, and especially the return of the little goodie she has.<br /><br />Cadsuane had a whole jewelry box full of *angreal, I believe -- including the well.  That didn't raise notice?<br /><br />&quot;Hmmm...where the hell has the most powerful Aes Sedai of our time disappeared to?  I haven't seen her in a few decades.&quot;  &quot;Cadsuane? Who knows.  More tea?&quot;<br /><br />Nuh-uh...at least, it's inconsistent with what Jordan has written before. <br /><br />Now...I don't want to get lambasted, and I'm stuck here all weekend without my books, but could someone confirm or negate something for me?  There was an Aes Sedai mentioned to Elayne (and several other times), who was a specialist in *angreal.  Didn't she just disappear without a trace, or was it some other thing?  Because if she did...it's plausible that Cadsuane is her -- just using a different name (like the way Moiraine has, due to her noble house, seventy-eleven names or so). <br /><br />That could be an interesting twist, because then immediate speculation might be that she went into the land of the Finn, from which many other unexplained things about Cadsuane could be addressed.<br /><br />On the other hand, I could be full of cow patties.


created: 2002-04-20 12:22:23
subject: <b>Cadsuamendred?</b>
body:
eh, maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 20:51:10
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
Cadsuane disappeared following her involvement in the Aiel War, which in fact pulled her out of an earlier retirement, so they probably assumed she'd died (she's old, and they <i>were</i> rather surprised to see her), or just gone into retirement again.<br /> <br /> <br />&quot;They wish to fast and meditate on civility.&quot;<br />It would appear to be Cadsuane saving some face for those she is reprimanding. It is no more a lie than saying &quot;You will do what I say&quot; and then the person not doing as you say. In this case, the 'meaning' of her words is an implied &quot;You will fast and meditate on civility, or else&quot;, as I believe someone said above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 21:00:42
subject: <b>Something I've come to believe</b>
body:
This sort of relates to this theory.  I don't think Cadsuane has sworn on the Oath Rod.  I may be wrong because its been a while since I've done any really in depth study on her character, so I haven't checked for discrepancies, but it does make sense.  We know that not swearing on the OR prolongs your life if you can channel, and Cadsuane is the oldest Aes Sedai in, like, history.  Though not as old as the Kin, she's still what, 200 or something?  We don't even really know if she's NOT as old as the Kin!  But I still don't think she's BA, she just found it convient not to swear.  You know Cadsuane...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Katiya<br />*Life-Time Supply Available Upon Request*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 21:34:42
subject: <b>Swear of Unswear</b>
body:
Didn't the group of Reds and Whites playing with the Oath Rod in the basements of the Tower establish that you could undo the Oath?  (though it was painful).  A little pain certainly wouldn't hinder someone like Cadsuane in doing something if she thought it was necessary/helpful.<br /><br />Also, even if they just thought she died, they still would've tried to recover the *angreal.  They were all hopped up about Moiraine's, after all.  <br /><br />On the other hand....maybe she DID die. It's hardly news that dead people come back, and if you accept that Mat died (some don't, and I'm on the fence, but the Finn said &quot;to die and die again!&quot; (or something like that).  I confess I'm a bit fuzzy on this. <br /><br />So maybe she died, and the ta'veren wove her back in.  In any event, I find her sudden appearance without any explanation troubling; either because it represents something we don't know yet, or because it's an inconsistency on the part of Jordan (yes, I know -- blasphemy!)


created: 2002-04-21 23:07:18
subject: <b>good god.....</b>
body:
this got posted when I none of my have made it??<br />ho boy... what is going on...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-21 23:52:29
subject: <b>Oaths Undone</b>
body:
I fully believe that Caddy took the 3 oaths (can you consider the Amyrlin or any of the Sitters etc caring if a 25-30 year old &quot;girl&quot; didn't want to?)<br /><br />However, Cadsuane has said that around 30 years ago she was hunting BA in the WT (gotta love acronyms) Since 2 sitters in the tower took a few hours to figure out that the BA had to either not have taken oaths (never happened before) or had been released, that Caddy with her wealth of brains would have thought of it. <br /><br />She would have thought it would be impractical to reswear the oaths if the BA didnt have to while she was hunting them. And afterwards it wouldn't really have been neccessary cos she went into retirement shortly after. She undoubtably tries to live by the oaths as Egwene does, but she uses the abilities remaining to her to be able to create an enigma about herself.<br /><br />After all, if she did lie, everyone would be spending way too much time trying to figure out what real truth was behind it or if she was actually BA.........<br /><br />Ummm Got to go.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster of the Blue Riders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-22 05:14:50
subject: <b>Ok Truth must be in the AS's mind</b>
body:
Theres been times the  Women equal to men in the power, where an AS has said something we KNOW is wrong,but to them it's right so they could tell a lie ,if they think it's the truth


created: 2002-04-22 07:41:30
subject: <b>Technically...</b>
body:
I noticed in the response one quote that was said to be a direct lie, &quot;You may call me...&quot; That is not a lie in any way, shape, or form! It is perfectly true that that person could call her anything, she did not imply that that was acctaully her name.<br /><br />Anyways, about Cadsuane, she may have just believed that they WOULD want to go off and meditate on civility, after all, she does wish that everyone was more civil and that may make her think that other people want to be civil as well (Rand and the Ashamans maybe?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 09:29:27
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
While, it is possible that she unswore the Three Oaths at some point (I don't find it likely but it would explain her longevity), she is obviosly bound by at least one oath now as evidenced by her ageless appearance.<br /><br />As stated before, when an Aes Sedai makes a threat, it does not nessisarily have to be literally true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 12:32:20
subject: <b>testing</b>
body:
testing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 19:33:16
subject: <b>What if..</b>
body:
I was just wondering that if Cadsuane had said that but the two chastised women had stood their ground and said something to the effect of &quot;no, we dont want to&quot;, would Cad have dropped to the ground choking? If she thought her statement true (if she is Oathbound) and another rejected it, would that be breaking the Oath? For that matter, if an AS was striking a novice with the power, as if with a switch, and the novice said something along the lines of &quot;A weapon which does not kill but is used to inflict pain is still a weapon&quot; would said AS ever be able to switch another novice - or anyone - ever again? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 16:02:35
subject: <b>To Jaghar and every admin in their ivory towers</b>
body:
I agree. There's been a bunch of C R A P theories lately ( Traveling, Blacksmiths and rehashes of Verin's channeling in a stedding - did not happen - just touched the poor thing) while some good ones went missing. Including mine on where Ishamael/Moridin was severed when Rand killed him in Tear as a reason why he uses the True Power completely now.<br /><br />A MESSAGE to those who claim they are admins. Let the majority decide whether a theory exists. Kick out those whose grammer resembles that of a Korean motherboard manual if you wish, but just because you have fixed, unchangable beliefs in the books and that you don't want any little upstart shattering those beliefs isn't good enough.<br /><br />And I wonder if some admins can read English properly, based on comments I received. As an author and English student, I write clearly and consisely.<br /><br />There, I've had my rant. Do what the H E L L you like to me, I don't give a continental anymore.<br /><br />WOT rules, I dunno about WotMania.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 15:39:39
subject: <b>Not a lie</b>
body:
I could say &quot;XXX is wearing purple underwear&quot;, but unless your underwear is showing and I can see otherwise, I am not lying because its possible you are.  Same with the sea folk.  Cadsuane has no way of knowing if they really want to meditate or not and it doesnt matter.  The fact that Cadsuane doesnt know for certain means her statement isnt a lie.  She might be wrong, but isnt lying.<br /><br />My 2 cents.<br /><br />Thrasha


created: 2002-04-29 19:58:54
subject: <b>What Aes Sedai have said.</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure at least one of them has said &quot;i'll skin you alive&quot; or something like it before, and they don't actually MEAN it. Hm? Something like that...


created: 2002-05-01 20:28:18
subject: <b>&quot;i'll skin you alive&quot;</b>
body:
uh, aes sedai can so no word that is not true. with cadsuane's quote, who said she was talking about the sea athan'miere? escort them to their rooms, the wish to blah blah. why couldn't she just have been quoting something someone else once said without informing them? technically not a lie, even though it seems like it?<br /><br /><br />also if an aes sedai said &quot;i'll skin you alive&quot; (whatever). i'd say that AS was BA. threats, violence, a lie. (theres no way around THAT one)<br /><br /><br />unless they were quoting someone..... these god-damned oaths are just a way for jordan to make us pay attention. he's laughing at us. i know he is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 23:42:46
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
There is the possiblity this is correct. I don't think the Oaths conform to &quot;well I didn't really meant it to be taken seriously, so I can say it&quot;. Remember, the Aes Sedai that discovered you can un-take the Three Oaths said they had fun staying up all night saying things like &quot;you have a mustache&quot; or &quot;the grass is purple&quot; or things like that. That means, you cannot say things that aren't true even if just in jest.<br /><br />I think Cadsuane may have un-taken the Oaths of her own accord, possibly. She is one of the most knowledgeable Aes Sedai, and very secretive, I could certainly see her keeping this knowledge from her Sisters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eilonwy Sedai <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Blue Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Accomplished Dreamwalker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Author to Be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of Absurdity Anonymous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Member of English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 15:35:53
subject: <b>She didn't technically lie....</b>
body:
She's not technically lying.....the would rather obey her and fast then disobey and face the concequences...and as for meditate on civility....that was meant as an ironic statment so it can not qualify as a lie.  Anyway that's my opinion.<br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Matrim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />       Sounder of the Horn<br />       Speaker of the Tongue<br />       Bearer of Memories<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Matrim Cauthon<br />Sounder of the Horn<br />Speaker of the Tongue<br />Bearer of Memories<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ~*~Dovie'andi se toyva sagain~*~ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 04:11:32
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
It certainly is interesting to consider this possibility. if Cadsuane can lie this means she has unsworn at least one oath.<br /><br /> Now I draw your attention to the prologue of book nine, snow, in this it states from Seaine's PoV that &quot;she personally knew the pain of removing a single oath and had speculated on the agony of removing more than one at once&quot; this shows that at least one Aes Sedai has at some point unsworn a single oath, and that it is unlikely she unswore more than one, also she is quite clearly not black ajah by her reaction. There aren't any other safe assumptions for me to make on this subject so I will leave any other elaborations on the subject to others.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;you say we should make our swords into plowshares, well I ask you what good is a plow when Trollocs roam the fields&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Caraman Gaiden<br /><br />The journeyman battle brother


created: 2002-06-15 21:42:06
subject: <b>I agree, she lied...</b>
body:
But this doesn't tell us much.  She appears to be ageless, so I assume she's still bound by some Oath, but I agree she must have removed the constraint not to lie from herself.  <br /> Unless her appearance is illusion, in which case she might not be the REAL Cadsuane (Cadsuanedred??)  I thought for a second there maybe she was Moirane already returned, but then there's Egwene's dream, so this is probably not it.  <br /> Furthermore, I now wonder if she told Rand the truth about Callandor?  Maybe she just said what she did to make Rand more dependant upon women who can channel?  Certainly, if there was anything wrong with Callandor, Osan'gar didn't know about it, as he seemed quite keen to get his hands on the thing in the end of WH.  How would Cadsuane have any info on Callandor, anyway??  Too many questions, no answers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 18:30:49
subject: <b>Response to TheUltimateReality</b>
body:
Before you go off again about how other people's grammer[sic] is bad, and how consisely[sic] they don't write their posts, perhaps you better run your own through a &quot;concise&quot; spelling and &quot;grammar&quot; check yourself, oh great and mighty &quot;author and English student&quot;.  <br /><br />In addition, the following is a sentence fragment:<br />&quot;Including mine on where Ishamael/Moridin was severed when Rand killed him in Tear as a reason why he uses the True Power completely now.&quot;<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Jasin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Staunch Seanchan Supporter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Defender of English <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-15 00:34:38
subject: <b>Some points</b>
body:
I do not think that Cadsuane technically lied.  There have been many instances of Aes Sedai making threats that were not meant literally.<br /><br />Moiraine (I believe; it may have been another Aes Sedai), in discussing the weaknesses of the Oaths, said that they can say things they believe to be true, whether it is or not.  Otherwise, Aes Sedai could not repeat the story Siuan and Leane cooked up about the Red Ajah setting up Logain to be a False Dragon.  And I've never seen any instance of an Aes Sedai choking when she found out that something she said in the past was false.<br /><br />As for the idea of a Sister being told by a novice that a switch is a weapon making her unable to switch with the power, that is patently ridiculous.  It seems to be the perception of the person that is important.  An argument could be made that tying someone up with Air is a weapon, because they are then helpless against someone cutting their throat.  I would be surprised if some White sister somewhere hadn't considered all these possibilities.  So if a Sister thought someone was a Darkfriend, even if they weren't, they could use the Power as a weapon against them.<br /><br />Oh, yeah.  The point of this thread.  Cadsuane didn't lie.  It was a veiled threat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Vengeance is Mine,&quot; sayeth the Lord.  I'm just here to arrange the meeting.<br />This is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-19 14:37:24
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I think that Cadsuane did not intend to decieve anyone, she did not technically lie.  However, I am more than likely wrong, and if so then Cadsuane may have never taken the three oaths, though she does seem to want everyone else to.  (this could make sense, too, though; I've already decided Cadsuane's a hypocrit)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Angel of Cleira <br />Creator of her Own Universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> and Ruler of her own World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*Frustrated Fan*  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(I really am nice. . .really. . .)</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-14 09:18:35
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
Every AS can bend the truth and probably even more than they know, but there's a conversation in Lord of chaos (I think) where Falion is sent to fetch Elayne. She states that the AS who sent her had given Elayne like 15 minutes to answer the summons or she would have 'the beating of her life' or something... Falion lingered on purpouse and Elayne thought that you shouldn't take even what an AS say word by word. There's your proof.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 00:09:34
subject: <b>Am I the only one who realizes this?!</b>
body:
She must have at least one Oath (possibly not one of the Three) or she wouldn't look ageless, though it is possible she unswore after she turned ageless, though I still believe she needs an Oath to do that, though she could have sworn a junk Oath like, &quot;Under the light, I swear to do whatever I want&quot;, or some such.<br /><br />My two cents. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-28 11:08:17
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Well, Cadsuane *did* prove that she's not Black Ajah about... thirty times... but the Oaths can be removed as easily as they are taken, or maybe she never took them at all.<br /><br />Actually, I take that back. Seeing as how the age-less-ness is linked to the Oath Rod ter'angreal, she obviously took them, but that doesn't mean they still hold her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 14:37:55
subject: <b>Nah.. she's just bossy.</b>
body:
I think Cadsuane was more in the way of telling the 2 offenders what they were going to be doing, and humiliating them by being so loud about it. i think Cadsuane's quite comfy in her reputation as a legend, and that all sorts of women, and non- Two Rivers men, will do her bidding. Hence, she was just skipping the part where she tells them that she wishes them to fast and meditate, and they agree. She's just being a bossy boots.


created: 2003-05-08 07:55:40
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
They'll probably want to go into their rooms and meditate just to get away from Cadsuane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 17:00:23
subject: <b>okay I may be repeating</b>
body:
there were too many comments to read throguh all of them, so this may be redundant but here goes:<br />a) sarcasm doesn't enter into it. The oath is not &quot;I shall not lie&quot; it is &quot;I shall speak no word that is untrue&quot; see the difference?<br />b)I beleive Cadsuane is not Black Ajah, i don't think anyone does.<br />c)I DO think she's free of at least that oath. Issue though is that she still retains the Agelessness. Why? She msut be bound by the oath rod somehow it would seem.<br />d)This ties in with a theory of mine that hasn't been psoted yet(hopefully it will go up soon) but I suspect Cadsuane really was dead, and that Moiraine broguht her back as part of her Aelfinn abrgain.<br />e)alternate possability, one I know people don't like. RJ made a goof. He's done it before, he'll do it again. Nobody's eprfect, and the alrger you make a series like WoT the more easily you're gonig to get tripped up.


created: 2003-05-31 20:06:00
subject: <b>fishi...</b>
body:
... how may hands do Aes Sedai have? (&quot;all&quot; or &quot;both&quot;.) Plus the 3rd &amp; 4th lines need to scan with the others (i.e. half their length) for a limerick. Try:<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <br />Who wished to be a Jedi. <br />She met with Gandalf, <br />Who chopped her hands off, <br />And then he poked her in the eye. <br /><br />However, better:<br /><br />An Aes Sedai loved the Source,<br />And thought it resembled the Force.<br />Along came Han Solo,<br />and gave her a polo,<br />which made a good second course.<br /><br />Leia wasn't amused;<br />and Han felt accused.<br />He said &quot;nuts to you&quot;<br />I prefer Cadsu.<br />with her I'm not abused.<br />____________________________________<br /><br />Gandalf had a long beard,<br />Though his friends thought it was weird.<br />An Aes Sedai said no,<br />she thought him a beau.<br />Gandalf waved his beard and cheered.<br />_____________________________________<br /><br />There once was a Warder called Lan,<br />a sexy fighting man.<br />Nynaeve couldn't resist,<br />and Lan wouldn't desist.<br />They wore out the back of his van.<br />_____________________________________<br /><br />A Novice went to the Tower,<br />In order to learn the Power.<br />She slept with a Warder,<br />and asked him to sword her.<br />She swallowed his sword for an hour.<br />


created: 2003-06-03 15:49:34
subject: <b>Cadsuane is still alive</b>
body:
(I didn't have time to read all 44 comments so if this has been written already, sorry)<br />Everybody thinks Cadsuane is dead.<br />In my opinion its because she's old. <br />But how can she be THAT old and not die? <br />the Binder(Oath Rod) shortens the lives of AS thus they live shorter than they can.<br />If Cadsuane somehow released herself from the oaths wouldnt that explain old age?<br />Nobody ever mentioned her agelessness as I recall,<br />correct me if im wrong.<br />If she has surpassed the age of normal dying that would explain why she can lie and can use the OP as a weapone (she tortured some monarchs till they saw it her way)<br />and the incessant speaking of her &quot;not dead?!&quot;.<br />


created: 2003-06-13 14:59:32
subject: <b>Three Oaths</b>
body:
I have read what everybody's saying about Cadsuane not taking the three oaths, but there is one thing that defeats that conjecture. Her face. The three oaths gives an AS the ageless face, and Cadsuane is definitely mentioned as having that. She may have been secretly freed from one of them, but she definitely took them.


created: 2003-09-18 05:56:34
subject: <b>::growl::</b>
body:
In going along with the fun, I must state that the quote says she commanded. There are 2 commands. <br />1. Take them to their rooms.<br />2. (To the Sea Folk)Fast and meditate on civilty.<br /><br />A command is neither true nor false. Cadusane can get around the Oath because she beleives that her commands will be carried out. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and if it ends up not weaving the Sea Folk fasting and meditating, she did not know that to be true upon speaking those words.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-21 01:45:46
subject: <b>Me again</b>
body:
Sorry, I know I just posted, but I have more to say. I was in the middle of a reread, when I came across this passage in CoS, prologue, pg 14:<br /><br />&quot;...Alviarin did not even blink at the violation of Tower law. Elaida had spoken the truth as she meant it to be.&quot;<br /><br />Clearly it does not violate the first Oath in this situation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 10:11:50
subject: <b>not a lie, a demand</b>
body:
I remember reading that section for the first time.  While I am a big fan of Caduanne and do not think she is anywhere near BA, I interpreted that passage to not be a belief (or lie) but rather it was Cadsuanne being persuasive and manipulative.  Telling the sisters what she wished them to do without disrespecting their position or disply Aes Sedai dirty laundry in front of others.<br /><br />I never even thought of it as a lie, more of her being dominating.  And the other Aes Sedai do not question or disobey &amp; if it was a lie wouldn't they have commented or thought about it.  I do not think RJ meant for it to be viewed in that context.


created: 2004-03-21 05:28:35
subject: <b>It would...</b>
body:
...explain how she lived long enough to become a legend and live when others expected her to be dead. Everyone suspects from the The Kin that the oath rod shortens your years...


created: 2005-06-09 17:55:30
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Definately agreed she lied...and I have a theory on this, since you brought it up...I wonder if I'll get around to posting it.....<br />


created: 2006-01-07 18:13:04
subject: <b>suggestion</b>
body:
the oath only says she cannot say something she believes to be a lie. therefore as she is assured they wish to do whatever she says ( having bullied them) she believes that whatever she says they want to do they want to do


created: 2002-04-22 13:32:42
subject: <b>Wow, I like your reasoning</b>
body:
I can see this as a strong possibility.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-22 14:02:04
subject: <b>Min</b>
body:
I see one little hole in your theory and it is that you can hide that you can channel (atleast the female can then it is logical to presume that men can to) and when in Salidar Min can't see any auras around Mogdihen and she have &quot;sheilded&quot; her's abilty to channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:09:54
subject: <b>Good Thoery</b>
body:
Very original. It is definately a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:23:21
subject: <b>Good theory but....</b>
body:
Excepting that Taim is Demandred, this is an excellent theory. Well planned out and very well supported. If I hadn't already bought into the Taimandred idea, I could definitly go for this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:49:52
subject: <b>a couple of problems I have</b>
body:
The main one is with your fourth point, I can't see Demandred, no matter who he's posing as step out of T'A'R into the Grand Hall, it's just asking to get killed if Rand is around.  So I think there has to be some way to combine Travelling and stepping out of T'A'R.<br /><br />And your fifth point isn't entirely accurate, while Min does normally see auras around anyone who can channel he likely always sees auras around others who weild power, such as kings and queens and probably high nobles.  Some examples would include Darlin, Moiraine's cousin, can't think of her name, and also Elayne's new head bodyguard, can't think of his name either, but had viewings of him when he was in Cairhein at the rebels camp.  So it's quite possible that she has met him and hasn't seen anything that would point to him being a Forsaken, I mean she never saw anything in the White Tower to reveal the BA.<br /><br />Overall though I'd say it's a pretty good theory, however, I think Demandred has his hands in more plots than we know and therefore would probably need more freedom than acting as Tumad would allow.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 15:30:13
subject: <b>Points 4 and five are incorrect.</b>
body:
I do like the fact that you point out that Demandred can't be too close to Rand (He wouldn't be hoping to stumble into him, if he was.)  <br /><br />That being said, points four and five are incorrect.  <br /><br />As far as I can see there is no evidence that Min sees auroras more often around channelers.  She sees it around Aes Sedai and Warders.  She doesn't seem to see it more often around Asha'man or Accepted (some of which have been channelling for a long time.)  I propose that her seeing continuous visions around Aes Sedai has more to do with them being bonded to their warders and/or an effect due to the Oath Rod. (Min hasn't seen many reds or Aes Sedai without warders.)  Min probably sees visions around Rand all of the time because he is ta'veren.  (Or maybe because he was bonded at the time.)<br /><br />We have seen at least one example of a person making gateways out of T'A'R to a location different from where they are at.  In WH, slayer meets someone (a Forsaken?) in T'A'R in an inn.  That person makes a gateway, (if I remember correctly) to a snowy area in the country.<br /><br />As far as your conclusion, it is just as good as any.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 16:00:59
subject: <b>Have You Guys Read The Books?????</b>
body:
Min sees auras and visions around everybody some of the time. She sees them around people who can channel all the time. This is one point which I always thought must indicate that either Demandred is not around Rand when Min is there, or he is posing as someone who can use the power.<br /><br />I had not caught the idea that when a channeler is using the MOM, they would not produce the same auras. Since nobody really knows what these visions are, I kinda didn't think they would be able to hide them from Min. Maybe I'll have to go back and re-read the part when when Min was in Salidar.<br /><br />As far as the theory goes, Wise One has done a lot of work, and I find no real issues on which she can be contradicted. But it still seems as though the theory is just a geuss, because there is really no hard evidence for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 16:25:05
subject:
<b>I like it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Well though-out theory. When I get home tonight I'm going to research the heck out of it and see what I think. It's a very plausable answer to who Demandred is . . . if only he was someone more important, though! Oh, well. Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 17:27:17
subject: <b>Nice theory, but</b>
body:
As for Grendael's comment about hoping to blunder in to him...<br /><br />Bashere and the Saldean's went against the Seanchan.  All the Saldean's.  I remember in aPoD, Bashere states that he has lost half his army in the battle.  If Demandred was there, he would not have missed the oppotunity to take a pot shot at Rand and it would have been very easy to &quot;blunder&quot; in to him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 17:39:16
subject: <b>really well thought out.</b>
body:
I like it.  I dont' remember this guy, but i like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 17:50:13
subject: <b>Oh gosh</b>
body:
I like the theory, and it is very apparent that you have waaaaaayyy too much free time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />j/k I dunno, I'm still kinda a fan of the TaimDemandred theory, but that's just me. You're ideas were very well thought out and I am really impressed. Esepcially when you pointed out the fact LTT raves about the both of them. But w/e, umm...good theory, lets just hope this doesn't turn into another identity war like the last time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 18:18:07
subject: <b>Couple points about comments...</b>
body:
To MightyYT, I just finished reading PoD and actually, Bashere only has 500 Saldeans with him at that point.  He says to Rand that the Asha'man that came for him said to bring no more than 1000 but he only had half that with him so he brought them all.  When he says he's lost half his army that means he's lost half of the 500.  Also, at the beginning of WH, Elayne comments on how she has kicked all the Saldaens out of Caemlyn, so there's a few around town still.<br /><br />I do like this theory.  I don't think its right...  but I like it.  My main reason for my feelings is that I just don't see RJ putting someone as important as Demandred's alter ego into the books for one chapter.  Personally, I think I would like Taimandred if it weren't so darn obvious.  I just don't see it being that simple.<br /><br />Guess all we can do is RAFO, but I really hope we get some strands tied up in CoT.


created: 2002-04-22 18:21:33
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Makes some sense for a change.<br /><br />A lot better than some clerk whose only guilty act was to try crack a joke.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 19:46:35
subject: <b>Great theory!!!</b>
body:
Except for the Min thing (her viewings do not always spot Forsaken or bad guys), this is a cool idea, and a nice new one.  I am interested to see if it proves true.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  Didn't RJ say all the evidence is in the books?<br /><br />I always thought there were too many holes in the Taimandred Theory:<br /><br />1) Rand and Lews Therin would probably recognize Demandred's personality. <br />2) Demandred is unlikely to tolerate being subservient to the Dragon, whom he is so very envious of. <br />3) Why would Demandred order others to kill Rand when he keeps squandering perfect opportunities to do it himself?  Rand may not trust him, but they often meet in places where Taim is backed by several of his hand-picked and trained Asha'man, and Rand is alone. <br />4) The five renegade Asha'man later received Taim's same command from Demandred, so if Taim is Demandred, he must be using the Mask of Mirrors and purposely confusing people (such as Aginor). <br />5) It seems unlikely that Demandred would've had enough time to establish his history as a false dragon in Saldaea, being chased by Bashere.  (Then again, he may be using the Mask of Mirrors to impersonate the original Taim.  Or he may not have been completely sealed in the Bore, much like Ishamael.)<br />6) In tSR, Black Ajah Joiya said the Dark One plans to use Mazrim Taim as a tool against Rand.  It seems unlikely that a simple Black Ajah would be privy to such information concerning someone as high up as Demandred.  Even a rival of Demandred's (Sammael or Rahvin) would not babble about the Dark One using him as &quot;a tool.&quot;


created: 2002-04-22 19:49:24
subject: <b>Well thought</b>
body:
You seem to have thought this through quite well, and I agree with your point about RJ naming someone. I myself still havent reached any conclusion over Demandreds ID, but your theory seems to fit just as well as others. I do recall an interview transcript where RJ said that it is a minority of people who get the Demandred thing worked out, so you got that for you. But once again; the naming thing.<br />Cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 20:30:16
subject: <b>Superior Work</b>
body:
I'm willing to give that theory a shot, but your reasoning (very good!) also adds to a dark horse candidate for me:  Daved Hanlon (sp).  My one loophole at the moment is that Min DID see him, and I believe she saw a lot of images, but when she met him, there were an awful lot of images running around that tent (Fain, Rand, Cadsuane, Toram, etc.) <br /><br />Argh! need to break out my books, finally.  IF we can accept that Demandred would accept a lesser role to do his task, than Daved becomes a possibility.  Please let me state right now that it's an admitted long shot. I'm looking for the funky possibilities.<br /><br />One thing about Daved is that he recognized Lady Shiane's torture techniques -- memories of Semirhage, perhaps?  How many people HAVE actually seen Aes Sedai and Warders tortured before?<br /><br />Also, when he 'saves' Elayne, the timing is exquisite, even if it is a plot.  A dead Elayne isn't what they wanted, else they wouldn't have had him save her.  Instead, he gambled an awful lot upon an amazing 'throw' of his sword -- Power-aided!<br /><br />Anyway, your excellent breakdown may well have broken the code; but it also spurred me to think about Hanlon.


created: 2002-04-22 22:03:41
subject: <b>I like It *NM*</b>
body:
I told u no message, weirdo!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Katiya<br />*Life-Time Supply Available Upon Request*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 22:19:21
subject: <b>Wow. Now THIS is original!</b>
body:
I'm not sure I agree with you fully, (example: RJ always introduces people with their full names, and it pees me off. That's how I noticed it) but I definitley appreciate the new blood to this theory board.<br /><br />Hey Columbo: You read this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 22:42:18
subject: <b>Demandred Can't Be Hanlon</b>
body:
The Hanlon theory is interesting, but it's not possible.  Towards the end of PoD we have a Hanlon POV scene, where he arrives in Caemlyn.  He makes no reference to being a Forsaken.  Instead he thinks of looting Cairhien twenty years before.  Not only was Demandred sealed at this time, but raping and pillaging randomly just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Demandred would do.  Finally, he thinks that &quot;his orders came from Moghedien herself&quot;.  All this adds up to Hanlon definitely not being Demandred


created: 2002-04-22 23:25:21
subject: <b>Much better than Taimandred. Period.</b>
body:
Sorry guys, never believed in the whole Taimandred thing. Couldn't quite buy it. This on the other hand is much more plausible. I truly believe that we'll find out who Demandred's been masquerading as in the prologue of CoT. Anyways, this was a well thought out theory. If I was totally fresh on the books I might be able to poke a hole or two in your theory, but I'm not so I won't. So good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 00:29:08
subject: <b>Just a note regarding running into Rand....</b>
body:
Graendal says this to Osangar and Demandred AFTER Rand has gone on the lam.  It is my opinion that they are hoping to run into Rand/have someone else(Kisman, Gedwyn, et al) find him for them AFTER he has fled from Cairhien.<br /><br />I'm just so happy that we had a great original never before seen theory.<br /><br />Isn't it wonderful!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 01:22:01
subject: <b>Much more plausible than Taimandred.</b>
body:
For various reasons, one of the foremost among them being that Taimandred is a fairly widely-held, but not indisputable belief.<br /><br />I -like- this one. It fits.


created: 2002-04-23 03:40:11
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
Min never sees anything around Dashiva.<br />So any evidence you use from Min is doubtful, but the theory is good.


created: 2002-04-23 06:30:15
subject: <b>I like this theory.</b>
body:
Something completely new. I don't know if Tumad is Demandred. I personally believe he's someone we haven't really seen before. But I like the research and thought behind this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 11:45:31
subject: <b>re: The Daved Hanlon theory</b>
body:
I actually thought he was a good candidate for Demandred for a while, so I went through all the books to reference everything I could about him. This was all based upon his actions in WH. But Shivan is right, it's not him. Even a forsaken might ride into Camelyn on a horse if they were trying to maintain their disguise. But from his POV he is worried about having failed Moggy. I don't think Demandred would give a hoot about Moggy. Nope.<br /><br />Re: Min: I KNOW I have read several times in the books where it says she sees things around people who channel ALL the time. Yes, she doesn't see anything around Dashiva that implicates his true identity, because tshe doesn't understand what most the things she sees mean. But, she would be suspicious if someone, like Bashere for instance, who is not suppose to know how to channel was throwing off these aruas and vision constantly, the way channelers do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 14:21:23
subject: <b>Stupidity</b>
body:
I find it hard to believe that 83% actaully believe this theory to be true (this has nothing to do with merit of theory, but that fact that everyone so readily agrees with it). If you click the thumbs up that means you accept it, not that it is a good theory, and therefore approximently 83% of theory post reads know longer think about who Demandred is, they &quot;know&quot;. Give me a break.


created: 2002-04-23 14:39:03
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
And it makes as much sense as anything else out there. Very in depth. Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 15:20:45
subject: <b>Don't be so sure.</b>
body:
Clicking on the &quot;thumbs up&quot; means you give it a thumbs up.  There's no way to know which people gave it a thumbs up because they agreed with it, because they thought it was a good theory, or because they simply liked the idea.<br /><br />I'm not sure I agree with the theory, but I gave it a thumbs up because it is both valid and original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 16:14:54
subject: <b>But What About Taim???</b>
body:
I agree that Demandred could be disguised as this Saldaean soldier. I also agree that ever since Winter's Heart, the Taimandred theory has been slowly fading.  At the same time, why did the Taimandred theory come into existence?  As I see it, it wasn't because people were &quot;trying to find Demandred&quot;, but rather, because people were trying to understand Taim.<br /><br />Taim's actions just don't make sense.  Even if he's been &quot;turned&quot;, he knows the Old Tongue and all sorts of tricks and seems to hate Rand too personally for it to be just because he was turned.  There's something up there and everyone's been trying to figure it out.<br /><br />SO WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH MAZRIM TAIM?  Isn't that the question we've been agonizing over?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 16:16:32
subject: <b>Thumbs up....</b>
body:
I gave it a thumbs up because I think it's an interesting and oringinal idea...I'm not sure I AGREE with it...but then I can't quite agree with Taim being Demandred either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 16:54:37
subject: <b>Other evidence against the Min point...</b>
body:
I do think this is a well thought out, original theory, but I just don't buy that Demandred could be somebody THAT &quot;unimportant.&quot;<br /><br />Regarding the author's point about what would happen if Min viewed a Forsaken...as others have pointed out, she was in contact with Dashiva, and didn't find anything suspicious about him.  Also, at the end of TSR, she meets Lanfear, and is shocked when the woman-in-white gives her that name.  I believe we have her POV there, and we don't get anything about Lanfear's auras, even though she is a channeler and one of the Forsaken...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Alric has bats in the attic.</i> ~Larisa<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 18:44:10
subject: <b>More importantly...</b>
body:
...if this theory is true, I believe that we will see Demandred in command of the Legion of the Dragon (that's what it's called, right?).<br /><br />I mean, Rand's always blowing off Bashere instead of going to inspect his new troops like he's supposed to (which helps the &quot;stumbling into&quot; comment). Also, a military unit dedicated soley to Rand is just too important to be ignored by the enemy, and fits Demandred's style perfectly.


created: 2002-04-23 19:01:29
subject: <b>Taimendred</b>
body:
Why don't you guys just give it up?  Taim is not the Mandrid.  I know that even when RJ has spelled it out for you, you'll find a way to stick behind your Taimendred.  You where played with by RJ.  I thought until the end of WH that Taimandred was a real possibility as well.  After reading WH Taimandred is no longer a reality.  I know it hurts but you have to move on as I did.  I know what your going through I really do.  I know its hard and you feel cheated but you have to move on.<br /><br />Thanks Wise One for something else to think on.  I enjoyed reading your theory.  The question of who is Damendred?  is one that I would like to answer before the next book.  I am rereading the series only to find that answer.<br /><br />I'm on the case.<br /><br />P.S.  Vashti I have no comment.  I'm glad to see your back and hope you have had a full recovery.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 20:37:50
subject: <b>I have to disagree with this theory...</b>
body:
The gateway evidence isn't really that vailid.  You are basing your whole theory that Demandred is in Caemlyn because he was spying on Elayne in dreamworld there, and that supposedly when you open a gateway from that point in dreamworld, it takes you to the same place in the world.<br /><br />There is counter-evidence against your gateway theory, as mentioned above in Slayer's case.  In addition, we don't really know what the Forsaken can or cannot do in dreamworld.  If a Forsaken can weave a gateway to anywhere in the physical world, then why can they not weave a gateway in dreamworld to anywhere in the physical theory?  This is a point of contention with me right now.  I really don't think we can confine Demandred to Caemlyn like this.<br /><br />As also mentioned, the Min point is not accurate.<br /><br />Also, I somewhat disagree with your analysis of Demmy being someone relatively unimportant.  There a number of positions held by important people that do not necessarily have the top priority to counsel with Rand.  One example I am thinking of right now is Weiramon.  Rand constantly disqualifies Weiramon as a fool, and Weiramon never really knows when to expect Rand.  Therefore, you could say that Rand might 'stumble' into Weiramon. <br />People constantly bash the Weiramon-Demandred theory, but I think that it might actually be the best one.  One point commonly used against the Weiramon theory is that Dashiva and Demandred were given orders to watch Rand.  We were told in WH that these 2 Chosen were given orders, but we never know when the orders were given.  And what prevents Dashiva and Demandred from watching Rand and also being in the same place at the same time??  Nothing.  Demandred obviously has an extensive network of agents who do his spying for him.  Look at how quickly Demmy found out about all the places Rand had been in WH.  I think Weiramon is a really valid option because it gives Demmy the combined power and flexibility he needs in order to finish all his duties.<br /><br />Someone like Tumad Ahzkan just doesn't have the flexibility, or the power needed to perform his other functions as Demmy.  Bashere is a stickler for discipline.  I would imagine that Ahzkan is kind of like his personal slave, doing as much work as he can in order to move himself up in the ranks.  <br /><br />So, unlike most of the people here, I gave your theory a thumbs down.  I enjoyed the originality, but I still do not think that this is any more conclusive than any of the other Demmy theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 20:41:46
subject: <b>Daved stuff</b>
body:
Thanks for pointing it out, Shivan and Randwashere.  Something was niggling at the back of my mind and that is almost certainly it.  RWH...I do, however, need to correct you on Min. She doesn't only view channelers.  After all, she's seen viewings on Mat, Warders, Perrin, and I believe Aram, and I'm pretty sure quite a few others. <br /><br />oh, and Columbo...never went away.  And I'm puzzled since I was unaware of having to recover from anything.  Oh, and 'no comment' too.


created: 2002-04-23 21:07:08
subject: <b>What is the deal...</b>
body:
with Taim? I agree with the guy above. What is going on with Taim? How does he know all the stuff he knows? How has he survived the taint some fifteen years as he claims he has? How does he know the old tongue and whats going on with those &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; remarks? I agree that he is not Demandred, but how does one explain Taim's odd behavior? I can see him being resentful and envious of Rand, him haveing proclaimed himself the Dragon and then being put under Rand. But for the rest, the only thing I can figure is he was taught by Ishy in an Ishy plot to sow chaos spanning 20 years. <br /><br />In respect to the theory here, it's as plausible as any other, though I have a hard time beleiving RJ would make him such a minor character.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-23 22:27:14
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
The things I do when I'm sick and don't want to study...  Anyways, the reason I thought Dem's a minor character (one we don't see much) is because the other remaining Forsaken are also.  Moggy's alter ego before she was caught by Nyneave was a nobody; we haven't seen Anath (Semi) much; and who knows about Mesaana (although I've got a theory on that, too.)  Glad you all like it!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-24 14:06:08
subject: <b>Argument against Weirmon</b>
body:
This post is specifically to refute the case for Weirmon being Demandred as suggested by Martimony Cauthon.<br /><br />One reason Weirmon makes a good case for Demandred, is that he has not been around Min. I know we have a lot of evidence showing she can't detect &quot;bad&quot; people, but there is a difference in the quanity of auras and viewings she has around channelers, and what she does around non-channelers. It also helps separate Dashiva and Weirmon, if Demandred was disguised as Weirmon before Rand selected Dashiva as a personal escort following Dumai's Wells.<br /><br />The one part that kinda blows this thoery for me is when Weirmon is talking with Gedwyn in TPoD. He says &quot;I don't care who you are... I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of...&quot; Then they saw Bertome, and both looked as though they wanted to kill him. Now, this conversation looks to me like Gedwyn is trying to talk Weirmon into doing something, possibly hurting Rand. If Demmy was Weirmon, I think the conversation would have more of a tone of a leader talking to a sub-servient darkfriend. The Forsaken are all very condesending. The only person who could appease Demmy into taking unwelcome risk wold be the Dark One himself. And I just don't think that's how this passage reads.<br /><br />Anyway, maybe I'm wrong here. I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was just mistaken. But there's a first time for everything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 18:47:29
subject: <b>Interesting theory...</b>
body:
But I disagree.<br /><br />Wise One, IMO there are a number of conclusion you reach which I don't think are supported by the facts.<br /><br />The Mask of Mirrors makes the facial appearance of the one Demandred is posing as irrelevant.  There would have to be quite a number of Saldaeans with Bashere who are significantly taller than he is.  <br /><br />I think the reasoning for Tumad's height matching Demandred's is not correct imo.  Demandred is almost as tall as LTT who is about 6'6&quot;.  Bashere is around 5'4&quot; IIRC.  A head taller than that still falls short of Demandred's height. <br /><br />I don't think Tumad is around Rand enough to be considered watching him.  For the last 2/3 of LOC, he was in a training camp with the rest of Bashere's men.    <br /><br />Tumad also does not have the personality traits of Demandred that Taim or Norry have.  <br /><br />Tumad also would be known among the Saldaeans.  He should have friends/fellow soldiers who known him well.  If he is an officer, did he bring his wife along?  Tumad also fought in Illian.  In Illian, Rand prohibited any channeling at all.  Demandred would then have been in a fight where he could not channel.  I do not think demandred knows how to handle a sword or ride a horse well enough to be in a mounted combat where he could not channel.<br /><br />Demandred's orders were to watch Rand.  If Tumad were Demandred, he therefore should have seen Flinn.  Flinn was with Rand in Illian.<br /><br /><br />Still a very original theory.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />mahiro<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-24 20:06:14
subject: <b>Let's figure this out!!!</b>
body:
The whole Taim thing is driving me (and obviously some others) crazy.  What do you say everyone stops the jabbering about these other theories and let's figure out what's up with Mazrim.  Personally, I think he seems to have some of the same feelings towards Rand that Padan Fain does (not sure if there's any connection there or just coincidence).  Anyway, I actually like this theory.  It seems to fit a lot better than the other Demandred theories that I have heard.  And BTW... DEMANDRED IS NOT TAIM!!! Get over it already!<br />Woh! I just had a completely pointless revelation!  Any of you guys notice how Uno is the guy with one eye?  Yeah, I just realized why his name is Uno.  Damn, now i feel pretty dumb, I shoulda noticed that years ago.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-04-28 23:01:03
subject: <b>The Dispute Rises Again . . .</b>
body:
Firstly, to Glamorn, I too agree with Burr and Andygal.  I have voted &quot;thumbs up&quot; on conflicting theories before.  Sometimes I do that because a more recent theory makes more sense to me than an old one.  Sometimes I do it just because the new theory is intriguing or a solid possibility--AS IT WAS IN THIS CASE.<br /><br />Great theory.<br /><br />To business . . .<br /><br />Min:  There's a lot of speculation whirling around out there about exactly what Min sees and how often she sees it.  It has been said often that Aes Sedai and Warders ALWAYS have auras around them.  But if she sees these things all of the time with a variety of people, Min very likely would not have even noticed much about our Saldean officer here.  Plus, we still have no concrete evidence whether or not a MoM will protect someone from Min's viewings (though the part with Moghedian leans heavily towards that it DOES).<br /><br />Height:  Being taller than Bashere does not necessarily put you just under Rand's height.  Rand is dang tall, and Bashere is dang short.  There's a lot to play with there.<br /><br />Demandred:  I've said it a gagillion times, people.  If you've read the white index book, and then the series, then one can see there is AMPLE evidence that Demandred is not behaving as he did during the Age of Legends.  When someone says, &quot;I don't think Demandred would be a lower-ranking person&quot; or whatever, that's EXACTLY what he'd do now.  <br /><br />Demandred hated LTT, and attacked him frequently when they squared off militarily in during the war.  Now Demi hangs back, keeps a low profile.  And why not?  Every Forsaken (just about) that has gone up against Rand has broken him/herself on the Rock of the Dragon Reborn.  Why not let your competetors wear him down and eliminate themselves in the process?  Nae'blis may be about serving the Dark One, but it's also about being the last man standing.<br /><br />Anyway, I still like the Halwin Norry theory, but this one is just as good.<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-29 15:02:52
subject: <b>Finally!!</b>
body:
This is truly a fantastic theory.  Well, supported and thought out.  You got me to look at in a different way.


created: 2002-04-29 19:45:55
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Wow, you're probably right! I mean, SO many people are CONVINCED that Mazrim Taim is Demandred, and RJ has a habit of making stuff happen that we don't expect, so you're probably right. <br />Also..I'm probably missing the obvious, or I've forgotten something. I'm half-way through reading Winter's Heart for the second time, but it's been a long time since I read it the first time. Is there proof that Anath is Semirhage? Just wondering.  lol I'll probably pick up the book to continue right after I finish submitting this and read it...but ya..I'm rambling now. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-03 22:28:19
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
Two pieces of evidence contradict this claim:<br /><br />(1) We know Demandred attends many meetings with the other Forsaken, his spies, and the Dark One. <br />Demandred also made a trip to Tear to try and steal Callandor, he acts as though he is familiar with Shadar Logoth.<br /> When ordinary soliders like Tumad disappear for as often as Demandred would have to<br />in order to maintain a Forsaken lifestyle, it's called DESERTION. ;-)<br />So unless Demandred is using Compulsion on everyone around him, that's a non-starter.<br /><br />(2) Tumad hangs around Bashere. Bashere hangs around Damer Flinn.<br />Although we have no direct connection, it seems likely that Tumad would be familiar with Flinn.<br />If we assume Demandred saw Flinn, the same problem arises.


created: 2002-05-04 07:52:52
subject: <b>ok but</b>
body:
Remember at the end of TGH, Min was holding Rand thinkingHe was going to die. Lanfear came opon them and told Min who she was mine saw nothing of an aura on her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 03:35:56
subject: <b>nice!</b>
body:
i do like this theory, it sounds rather passable. good 'research'. i'm not sure whether or not to believe it though.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  reader of all things bookish  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 22:49:44
subject: <b>Response to the Voice of Lews Therin</b>
body:
What's the deal with Taim? Ha. Funny one. Haven't we all been wondering that? Not me. Because I actually have a brain. Taim is blind with jealousy that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, not him. So jealous that he turned to the Shadow over it. Either that, or maybe he really is Demandred. I have mixed opinions over the whole Taimandred theory, with each little voice in my head saying something different. Whatever. Taim's &quot;deal&quot; is long solved. Focus on the theory, please.<br /><br />This is a good theory, but far from seamless. If Demandred was supposed to be 'keeping an eye' on Rand, wouldn't he have found a position a little closer to Rand? Personally, I think Demandred might be posing as an Aiel man, or perhaps (this is REAL out there) even as a Maiden (they DO have the perfect position available to 'keep an eye' on Rand.) All the same, it's good to see so many different names floating around concerning the identity of Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 04:53:24
subject: <b>I hope</b>
body:
I hope you all realise that if RJ ever saw any of this he would make Taim Demandred just to spite us.<br /><br />beside that great theory<br /><br />(this is Taimandred joke #4862)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" />Taimandred jokes, just say no<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-25 14:20:25
subject: <b>demandred</b>
body:
Just a comment about the &quot;blundering&quot; thing. When the surviving Ashaman (right before Fain kills him) was leaving from the encounter with Rand in Far Madding he was thinking about the orders given him from Taim and from Demandred. Apparently Demandred found Rand without needing an army or other way to &quot;blunder&quot; into him. Maybe that has been taken too literal. Possibly the forsaken who made that comment was just being abit sarcastic mocking his attempts to track him down. At that point no one knew where he was because he was leaving false trails. Demandred, like everyone else at that point, had to track him down even through his false trails.<br />Another thing someone commented on.. the deal with Taim is he was rescued by the Black Ajah after he was captured. The claim was it was his followers he rescued him but we know from comments made by the captured black ajah in tear that they had planned to rescue logain and use him to smear Rand's name. Since logain was out of the picture they turned the plan to Taim. Now, being Taim, facing the wrath of the tower and no doubt being gentled how hard do you think it was for him to be convinced to turn to the shadow for glory and fame. When he firsts meets rand he talks of glory several times. Keep in mind he wanted it so bad he claimed to be the dragon. And his hatred of rand was spelled out already, LLT said like demandred and sammael no matter what honors or rewards he heaped upon them it was never enough. they despised him from jealousy. I see Taim quite clear, same as Dem and Sam. Turned to the shadow for glory and for jealousy of Rand.


created: 2002-08-15 06:29:20
subject: <b>LTT does *NOT* react on Tumad!</b>
body:
This theory sounded so amazing that I immediately fetched the book and read the corresponding passage. At the end of LOC's first chapter, &quot;Lion on the Hill&quot;, we see Tumad entering the room to announce that Mazrim Taim wants to see rand. Then the chapter ends. In the next chapter &quot;A new arrival&quot;, Rand thinks and discusses with Bashere about why Mazrim Taim could have come (for Rands Amnesty? For a duel?) - and the whole time, over several pages, Tumad stays in the room, and there is NO sign that LTT &quot;rants about him&quot; in ANY way.<br /><br />Another point is: the fact that Demandred spies in flesh in the T'A'R Version of Caemlyn, and leaves there to the real Caemlyn, does NOT mean that STAYS in Caemlyn. Remember, in only one day he could Travel around the whole continent, visiting as much cities as he want!<br /><br />And also I have to repeat what someone said earlier: Tumad is not close enough to Rand to be considered &quot;spying&quot; on him...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/1120.gif" /> tynstar<br />Conjurer of fire-demons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 08:36:51
subject: <b>I doubt it - Glimmers spoiler</b>
body:
I must say it is an excellent theory but Glimmers has a bit of a body blow for this theory - Tumad grins - &quot;and even Tumad flashed white teeth through his beard in a grin&quot; . We know that Dem never smiles and I would guess that RJ is trying to mislead us to Dem and hinting that Tumad might be him in previous books. Also mentions that they have campaigned before, implying that Tumad has been known to Bashere for a while. Sorry to throw a spanner at this well researched idea, but my money is that Tumad is not Dem.<br /><br />Bob din Crimson Tide<br /><br />I know I am paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?


created: 2003-02-09 17:40:11
subject: <b>You've got the evidence wrong...</b>
body:
&quot;-Lews Therin Telamon rants and raves about the forsaken when Tumad came into the room, and when he returned with Taim (it seems that Lews Therin Telamon is ranting about Taim, but Lews Therin Telamon starts his ranting before seeing Taim and after seeing Tumad)&quot;<br /><br />--&gt; Um, no he doesn't. LTT doesn't throw a fit until Taim is within sight AND long after Tumad shows up. Rand has time to remember the guy's name and wonder what Taim wants before LTT even speaks up...


created: 2005-05-09 23:29:00
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
Sorry your wrong when we first meet Tumad or whatever his name is its from his point of view. And it definitively proves that he is exactly what he seems a saldean army officer. Its the chapter where perrin enters Camelyn with Faile if you reread that you will notice the officer in charge from whose point of view that scene occurs is Tumad. Nice reasoning though.


created: 2007-09-22 22:17:34
subject: <b>Just one small detail.................</b>
body:
If we remember Min's initial reaction to viewing the Tarien and Cairhienin nobles after the siege of Cairhien was one of horror. I'm not sure what the exact quote is but it was something to the effect of never had she seen so much violence and death in one group of people. That would certainly describe the type of aura one of the forsaken might put off.


created: 2002-04-24 12:26:02
subject: <b>Makes sense</b>
body:
I agree that those Aes Sedai are the ones that Siuan sent before she was deposed. Wow. I hadn't even thought about that at all. Well, something new to ponder!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 13:26:47
subject: <b>Good...</b>
body:
In addition to your thoughts I&#180;d like to mention that they have a very good motive to stay away, since they were sent by Siuan who is now deposed. Therefore they can&#180;t know how they would be recieved acting on Siuan&#180;s orders.<br />The question about the guards remains though.<br /><br />Dopo


created: 2002-04-24 19:59:19
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
Would they also know to the full extent of what's happened to the Tower? They may only have heard of a split.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 21:08:30
subject: <b>One thought from Prophecies of the Dragon</b>
body:
In the Prophecies of the Dragon, it talks about how the black Ajah chased Taim down, caught him, and tried to bend him to their will.  This book was endorsed by RJ, so I I least somewhat trust the info contained in it.<br /><br />I am still trying to place how the 13 black Ajah members who left the tower fit in with the capturing Taim picture.<br /><br />Any ideas?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 21:47:34
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
It's likely that the Aes Sedai Siuan originally sent after Taim either followed him south or returned to the White Tower when she was disposed.  Elaida, however, sends several Reds to the Borderlands in order to find out what has happened to Queen Tenobia, because she was supossedly on retreat and no one could find her  But I can't remember where it was and I don't feel like looking for the quote, for anyone interested it's when she still has a few stools sitting around her desk for those she meets with.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 00:19:08
subject: <b>ummm...</b>
body:
In the theory that just got posted about Mattin Stepaneos, it says that Elaida tried to kidnap him and Tenobia.  Supposing this is accurate, couldn't those aes sedai be Elaida's and not Siuan's?


created: 2002-04-25 03:22:09
subject: <b>They weren't sent to Tenobia</b>
body:
Elaida sent one Aes Sedai, Memara, to bully Tenobia. She was Red. This made Tenobia extremely angry and she slipped away without letting Memara know. This is mentioned in the prologue to TPoD. After she got away, she met five Aes Sedai, and she was sure it was by accident as according to her they seemed as startled as she did. She may not be entirely correct but there is a fair chance she is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 20:36:34
subject: <b>I like it.....</b>
body:
It definitely ties up a loose end, just a thought for another reason why they might not have returned to the tower is that the party may have contained a member of the Blue Ajah. Whilst this is pure speculation on my part I think it may be likely, as there is no reference to the party being of only the Red Ajah. Moreover there is no Blue Ajah in the White Tower at the moment and Elaida means to disband the Blue Ajah for good.


created: 2003-01-06 21:17:27
subject: <b>Siuan</b>
body:
Ok, has anybody thought about how Siuan is still alive?  I would bet that in Salidar and retaining her eyes-and-ears that she would remember which sisters she sent and where.  I think that either she &quot;forgot&quot; about those, which is not likely, or the matter has been resolved.  All I know is that Siuan Sanche has not mentioned the sisters she sent away when Egwene was trying to build up her supply of Aes Sedai for the &quot;rebels.&quot;  Unless RJ just happened to leave that part out and save it for later!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Would you fight the Dark One for a Klondike Bar???<br /><br />I would . . .</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-05 10:22:26
subject: <b>The Tower is very close to the Borderlands</b>
body:
Since Mazrim Taim escaped (a message came to the Amyrlin by pigeon, likely from one of the surviving sisters), Tenobia learned of his escape, sent Bashere all the way from Saldaea to Caemlyn, had time to learn that Bashere and Taim both were following Rand, and decided to set out after them both.  On the way, she encounters (half of) the sisters the Tower sent to capture Taim?  And they sent out only 12 sisters to capture Taim, who is nearly as strong as the Dragon Reborn, and those women go in two different directions (from Tar Valon, Saldaea and Arafell are in nearly opposite directions)?  By contrast look how fast the embassy from Salidar got to Caemlyn compared to sisters chasing a false Dragon who can channel strongly.  Aes Sedai can haul ass when needed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 12:29:07
subject: <b>Huh!</b>
body:
I'll bet you're right. Something else I hadn't thought about...*tsks* Oh Elaida, will you never learn?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 13:11:28
subject: <b>Graendal is controlling Iltrude</b>
body:
Hence why she's in Hussy Land.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 13:47:13
subject: <b>Wouldn't be the first time</b>
body:
I had never thought of that possibility! Good theory!<br /><br />Although we know otherwise, Morgase is another character who has disappeared (at least in the eyes of the main characters) and is thought dead.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-24 16:56:09
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Mattin Stephaneos' name has been mentioned quite a bit for someone who is suppose to be dead. I kept thinking &quot;He's dead, get on with the book!&quot; But I think you bring up a very valid point. I think perhaps he has been mentioned so much because he is alive, in the white tower.<br /><br />We have seen several times where someone suggests an idea as ludicrous, only to find out it was the truth.<br /><br />The question I would have is will Stephaneos support Rand? Rand really hasn't destroyed Illian. In fact he protected it from the Seanchan and tried to capture all the bandits and rouge Aiel. And, as you pointed out, Stephaneos had tried to regain some control from Lord Brend before he vanished.<br /><br />OTOH, he if he is in the White Tower, he could always be brainwashed by the Aes Sedai into not liking Rand. I guess we will RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 18:08:14
subject: <b>*NT*</b>
body:
Hmm... I forgot about Stepaneos along the road.<br /><br />I think your theory has very good chances to be right Matrimony.  <br /><br />That probably means that the rightful King of Illian do be the &quot;guest&quot; of Elaida at the WT... which means he do be virtually in the hands of Mesaana and Alviarin.  Poor man.<br /><br />Interesting possibilities.  I can well imagine the troubles a Mesaana or Demandred might cause to Rand using the King of Illian and why a Forsaken would be interested in controlling him since he felt in their hands unwittingly through Elaida.  This could range from untimely rebellion in Illian to a false offer of fealty to the Dragon to regain the throne and a later backstabbing (for instance turning Illian against Rand to make a secret deal with Semirhage's Seanchan in exchange for, let's say ruling Tear after a jointed Seanchan-Illian conquest of the Stone?).<br />That's only some ideas.<br /><br />In any case, it seems once again that one of the new strategies of the Chosen (some of them at least) is definitely &quot;the snake in the bosom&quot;. Something like that is brewing with Elayne in Andor, there's Aran'gar with Egwene and a similar strategy was used for the Black Tower where it festered enough to explode soon.  If only the Chosen could all work together toward the same goals for a while, they could cause major dammages.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-24 20:59:36
subject: <b>Possibly Missing the Point</b>
body:
Remember that Stepaneos is one of the top 5 living generals.  If he is in Tar Valon, he is most likely being convinced/compelled to defend the city.  Who better to defend Tar Valon against an army led by Gareth Bryne?<br /><br />If Stepaneos will be commanding the defense of Tar Valon, the Tower Aes Sedai will be very close ot the Salidar Aes Sedai in strength.  Mat and/or the Band had better get to Tar Valon on the double!


created: 2002-04-24 21:41:18
subject: <b>Stepaneos is NOT one of the great generals</b>
body:
The only listing I know of is when Bryne shows up to Salidar, in tFoH CH 27, and Nuhel mentions the five great captains and Stepaneos isn't there.  It's Agelmar Jagad, Davram Bashere, Pedron Niall, Rodel Ituralde, and Gareth Bryne.  Unless you know of<br /><br />Other than that I guess it's possible that Stepaneos is in Tar Valon, but I don't see any reason for it.  The main reason that Elaida wanted him was to convince him to help her with Rand and it's unlikely he'll be of much help.  Also without the support of the Council, I doubt there's much Stepaneos could do in Illian that would harm Rand, there's nothing to show that he was greatly loved by his people.<br /><br />Anyway, while it's possible, I doubt he's still alive.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 21:50:57
subject: <b>I should probably get some sleep</b>
body:
I cut in mid sentance.  What I was trying to say at the end of the first paragraph was, unless you know of another listing, that I can't recall your wrong.  However, I didn't think that really took too much away from the theory overall.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 22:27:09
subject: <b>here is my source Jim</b>
body:
pg. 122 of The Guide:<br /><br />&quot;The council was perhaps lucky in the order in which they decided to rotate command-or perhaps they purposelyy gave the best generals the first chance, whether they voiced this or not.  The order of command was:<br /><br />1.  Lord Agelmar<br />2.  Pedron Niall<br />3.  Lord Aranvor naldwinn (killed on 3rd day of fighting<br />4.  Lord Hirare Nchiman (killed in skirmish)<br />5.  Mattin Stepaneos<br /><br />Generals were selected, and it said it was lucky that the best generals were given the top priority in decision making.  Thus, I take this as mattin Stepaneos being one of the best generals<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 03:27:27
subject: <b>So why did he lose so badly to Pedron Niall?</b>
body:
If he is one of those five greatest living generals (and an ILLAINER Warder did NOT list him as one of the five) how come he lost so badly to Pedron Niall, definitely one of the five? The only reason he wasn't roundly defeated and captured by Niall is that the Companions came crashing down and rescued him. Not exactly the mark of a great general one would think. Also, by the fifth day of the Battle of Tar Valon the Aiel were in full retreat and unless Steptaneos was stupid enough to try chasing them it says nothing about his leadership skills.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 15:50:33
subject: <b>#5 out of who was there!</b>
body:
That just means that he was the #5 general out of the lot that was there. Most of the others could have been missing.<br /><br />The statement from the Warder seems more accurate.<br /><br />But the idea that Mattin may be in the WT is intriguing, especially if he wants his Crown back. How does the Council of Nine work, can they have done what they did if Mattin is alive and well and (as an excuse for being AWOL) being summoned by the Amyrlin Seat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 16:49:30
subject: <b>that would explain it</b>
body:
Since I don't have the Guide I haven't seen that listing.  However, as the last person mentioned he was only 5th out of the generals there, which doesn't necessarily put him as one of the top five in the world.  Considering he's rather far behind Niall on that list it would seem to indicate, IMO, that he wasn't one of the best.<br /><br />He might be of some help to the White Tower in the upcoming seige, however, I think the reveling of the BA will probably make the seige short, in that both sides will combine to get rid of all of the BA.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 19:53:51
subject: <b>Not Elaida's plan</b>
body:
Now, now... Elaida may be mean and stupid, but she's not Black Ajah.  She's only their puppet.  What motive would she have to kidnap the King of Illian?  That sounds like something a Black Ajah would do.  Despite all her poor judgment calls, Elaida strives to be Amrylin-like, and kidnapping Kings is the kind of activity that would call her competence into question.<br /><br />I can't remember that particular quote from Mesaana, but it seems unlikely to me, unless it's actually Mesaana or Alviarin's plan.


created: 2002-04-25 20:31:23
subject: <b>Good Idea</b>
body:
It's not a bad theory.  My only real question would be why would WT kidnap Mattin?  What would they gain? <br /><br />He is no longer the king of Illian, (hey Steve) and I believe the plans to kidnap him were being disscused before Rand took over Illian.  So that is my question.  Who Gains from kidnapping Mattin?<br /><br />Maybe he is being put in charge of the WT army.  He would prolly have to be compulsed to do it.  Why would he willingly lead an army for the people who kidnapped him.  I guess they could offer to help him regain the throne of Illian, but I don't know if that would be enough.<br /><br />like I said before, who would gain from kidnapping Mattin?  I don't know.  Do you? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You know I just can't think of anything witty right now so this is all you get.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 05:52:47
subject: <b>Gareth Bryne</b>
body:
I belive that they will use mattin - they; the white tower - to general the army that will defend the white tower against the army that the rebel aes sedai are raising, with the promise that he will have his lands back, as there is the possibility that is he was carted off on a boat to tar valon, he will have no knowledge of Rand seizing Illian from Sammael, and will believe that Lord Brend is still in possession of his kingdom. A king wouldn't hesitate to move against a usurper in his kingdom, so once he is done defending Tar Valon for the aes sedai, i believe he will be used as a puppet to attack illian, and distract rand - ready for another kidnapping.


created: 2002-04-27 09:44:46
subject: <b>Truth of Rumors</b>
body:
As to why anyone would want him, I don't know, but the evidence seems pretty strong that he's alive.  The bit about being rolled up in a carpet, combined with the line that there was a planned kidnapping, seals it in my book.  People don't just invent rumors like that; unless there's someone else who might have been kidnapped from the docks of Illian?  He's alive, but why, or where, who knows.<br /><br />One thing to consider though -- Alviarin disappeared from the WT for several weeks.  She can travel, thanks to her patron, and we don't really know what she's been doing on Mesaana's behalf.  Worth keeping in mind I think. OA


created: 2002-04-27 19:48:40
subject: <b>Doesn't need to be so great</b>
body:
...to hold off Byrne in a standard battle of Tar Valon.  A defender has tremendous defensive superiority, and this is made even greater by the few points needed to defend the island fortress.<br /><br />The two 'Towers' are relatively equal in strength, probably relatively equal in numbers....defending is worlds easier than attacking.<br /><br />Maybe Elaida didn't kidnap him.  She may have wanted a competent leader and browbeat/blackmailed/bribed him into doing it, dangling Tower support for the recovery of Illian.<br /><br />And c'mon, folks...think:  There will BE no seige of Tar Valon, now that Mesaana has taught them Traveling.  The entire purpose of a seige is to cut off the defender from a source of supplies, starving them into submission.  That's rather impossible now. <br /><br />There is simply no way that the other Powers in the world (Rand, the Forsaken, Mat, the Seanchan, Sevaana, the White Cloaks, etc), will simply ignore perhaps the greatest battle (and perhaps the most important of this War) since the Age of Legends.


created: 2002-04-28 23:45:14
subject: <b>What clinches it for me....</b>
body:
Is the fact that Sammeal would have had no reason to murder Mattin Stepaneos no matter how<br />he tried to reassert himself.  Smacking him upside the head with compulsion is just as effective, and arouses<br />a lot less suspicion.<br /><br />Marc


created: 2002-04-29 02:14:09
subject: <b>A quote I noticed</b>
body:
pg 491 in PoD, Elaida says<br />&quot;Al'Thor has the crown of Illian for the moment, but that's in work.&quot;<br /><br />I wonder what that scheme is and if it might involve Stepaneos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 14:38:03
subject: <b>to Vashti</b>
body:
messana taught alviarin to travel, NOT the entire tower.  i think the black ajah might just travel out in the nick of time, but the rest of the &quot;good&quot; aes sedai in the tower might not be so lucky.


created: 2002-04-29 19:54:54
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I kinda just forgot about Mattin Stepaneos after he disappeared. **wrinkles nose** I have to start remembering minor characters, since RJ tends to bring them back and make them important.


created: 2002-05-07 04:41:23
subject: <b>Companions</b>
body:
Here's an interesting thought: wasn't Tam Al'Thor Second Captain of the Companions at one point (TGH 124)?  I don't know where I'm going with this, but it seems that he was one of the soldiers who pulled Mattin Stepaneos's bacon off the fire.  That could be motive for him to either support Rand or oppose him, depending on the kind of man he is.  Since we have yet to really meet him, I can't judge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Papa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Founder of the Wotmania Writers' Guild <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to no one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 19:04:18
subject: <b>Poor Mattin</b>
body:
One thing to remember is that it takes time to plan a kidnapping, so just because it seems like kidnapping him would be a waste of time now, doesn't mean that it didn't at the time.  Elaida wanted a return to the days when Aes Sedai were in complete control, and I think it's pretty obvious that she is stupid enough to try kidnapping a King.  So this is a valid theory.  Besides, I don't think anyone anticipated that Rand would attack Illian so quickly.   After all, his big army was a diversion.<br /><br />So Elaida probably kidnapped Stepaneos, thinking Rand wouldn't take over Illian for a while, and then two days later, Rand was king.  It's not like Elaida's done anything right yet.  It would fit perfectly into character. <br /><br />As for getting Stepaneos to general her armies, I think that is laughable, considering she still refuses to see a threat.  Elaida thinks the rebels will cower back to her any day now.  She pretty much believes what she wants to believe no matter the evidence.<br /><br />Also, even if Pedron Niall was a better general than Stepanoes, I don't think that means he is a bad one.  But I still see no strong evidence that he was a great general.  I have yet to see a current king or queen lead his armies, although the Aiel chiefs do, so maybe it isn't too far out there.  I think Tam Al'Thor probably did a lot of Stepaneos' generaling at the time, considering that he isn't even from Illian, and he moved up to the rank of Second Companion. (I think)  I doubt they'd promote him just because he was good with a sword.  Maybe Stepaneos was called the main general, like Rand was in the siege of Cairhien, as a courtesy.  Just a thought.<br /><br />Overall, I think it's a good theory, but even if Stepaneos comes back, I don't think it will make much of a difference in the storyline.  He wasn't a very good king.  Even if Sammael was to blame for the problems they had, the problems inevitable fall on the shoulders of the king, and I doubt his people, or the Council of Nine will want him back.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!


created: 2002-07-17 14:51:35
subject: <b>Elaida and Mattin</b>
body:
Elaida's comment about removing Rand from Illian's throne has more to do with working through the Council of Nine.  The MO is similar to how she went after the nobles in Cairhein and the rebels did in Caemlyn.  She may be ambitious and loaded with flaws, but Elaida is still a conventional and (neo-neo-ultra) conservative Aes Sedai.<br />I like the idea of Alvarian kidnapping him, especially during her time outside the Tower.  Combine that with her thought that maybe should would wear the stole one day, and I think she is planning a political coup of her own.  She produces a very compentent general to defend the city, using troops she herself ordered levied and 'uncovers' the attack plans of the rebels (thru her BA contacts).  The coup complete, she oustes Elaida and welcomes the rebels back, under her, as Amyrlin Seat.  <br />A very logical plan and puts Tower policy under control of the BA.  (I think between the rebels and Tower, you could round up close to a majority of BA Sitters.)<br />Spinning it out, Woody


created: 2002-08-29 12:06:57
subject: <b>Alviarin's doing</b>
body:
Steppanos is probably not as good as the top five listed by the Illianer warder, but of those listed who would be on Tar Valons side.  Anglemar is for the the Dragon, and Nial being dead puts a damper on him plus the whole whitecloak thing.  Maybe Alviarin had a short list of great generals to lead the TV army and Steppanos was the easiest to get.  She, being in charge of TV because Elaida the light illume her is a sniveling idiot most of the time, would not hessitate to put her plan into action.  I agree that Alvirin has some sort of coup going, but time is short.<br /><br />I do not think that compulsion will be used on him, and that could be a downfall of Alvirin's plan because I may be wrong but does she know Compulsion?  So if (there are a lot of if''s) Steppanos is in TV and leads a virtually leaderless army crearted by Alvirin, how much loyalty will he have to them.  I do not think kings take to kindly to be rolled up in a carpert and shipped half-way round the world.<br /><br />Taim being a close to Steppanos is interesting because even if Taim was not part of the Companions that saved Steppanos bacon Steppanos would know Taim.  But for Taim's sake there are very few people who know that he raised the dragon reborn.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 13:51:21
subject: <b>OOOPPPPPSSS</b>
body:
I can't spell.  Tam is the correct spelling of the great man that raised the Dragon Reborn.  I am decently stupid but Taim is not who I meant.  Sorry<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 02:30:30
subject: <b>Not top 5, but maybe top 10</b>
body:
We can speculate that Stepaneos was a competent and respected general because Pedron Niall took obvious pride in the fact that he had beaten him.  That's probably the victory that established Niall's rep as one of the &quot;Great Generals&quot;.<br /><br />I'm convinced Stepaneous is alive, but haven't a clue as to what role he could possibly play.  Even if you accept him as a gifted commander, who is he going to command?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 05:47:42
subject: <b>RJ is tricky...</b>
body:
And I certainly have made it a habit not to presume anyone dead until either the body turns up or RJ specifically says he's toast... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Most likely the former King Of Illian is still alive, if you ask me and probably going to be used in some way to strengthen Elaida...<br />I guess a raincheck is in order until we can RAFO. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Silver"><i>Harsh world be damned,<br />let's make a stand...</i></font> <br /><br /><font color="orange">Saknar Korybj&#246;rnen&#8482;<br /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-30 01:29:19
subject: <b>I'll say no.</b>
body:
Illian supplied the third-most soldiers to the allied forces at the Battle of the Shining Walls, after Shienar and Andor. So it's only natural that an Illianer representative would get to command sometime. Stepaneos need not have been the best commander in Illian (cf. Laman Damodred's leading in the name of Cairhien).<br /><br />As for the question of why Sammael would have killed Mattin Stepaneos, that's an easy one. People tend to be slightly less suspicious of new leaders who advance through the proper channels, i.e. through the Council of Nine; and political power in Illian is held by three groups: the Nine, the King, and the Assemblage (merchants and ship owners). Merchants are easily squashed, and Sammael appeared to have control of the Council of Nine, leaving the King the only obstacle to his 'legitimate' acquisition of power.<br /><br />I'll give this theory a big NO, because IMO it's incredibly likely that Sammael had Mattin Stepaneos smothered in the night, never to be heard from again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 23:12:36
subject: <b>Said b4, but...</b>
body:
Mattin is considered one of the top generals, shown I think from Niall's PoV, but not the top 5, who are(were) Pedron Niall, Agelmar Jagad, Davram Bashere, Gareth Bryne, and Rodel Ituralde.<br /><br />BTW, does anyone no why Taraboners always say &quot;yes&quot;, and Illianers always make grammatical mistakes w/&quot;do&quot;?


created: 2003-07-24 20:31:03
subject: <b>Elaida Had Him Kidnapped</b>
body:
Good theory, Matrimony Cauthen.  The evidence is too strong not to believe- Re Elaida`s known intentions and Messaana`s statement to Alviarin.<br /><br />The question in my mind is what will be his reaction.<br /><br />Now, being kidnapped will NOT endear him to Elaida, nor is serving as her General likely, since she already has Chubain.<br /><br />Without anything in support, I`m going out on a limb and say that he will in some way, be a supporter of Egwene, who is now in the Tower.<br /><br />If you were kidnapped by someone, wouldn`t you support someone trying to get rid of your kidnapper?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-05 18:42:58
subject: <b>As it is 2007</b>
body:
The Theory is Correct! To all those who said no, eat your cake.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-06 08:34:11
subject: <b>I like this comment by jofraz</b>
body:
<b>Submitted by jofraz on 7/24/2003 8:31:03 PM <br /><br />Good theory, Matrimony Cauthen. The evidence is too strong not to believe- Re Elaida`s known intentions and Messaana`s statement to Alviarin.<br /><br />The question in my mind is what will be his reaction.<br /><br />Now, being kidnapped will NOT endear him to Elaida, nor is serving as her General likely, since she already has Chubain.<br /><br />Without anything in support, I`m going out on a limb and say that he will in some way, be a supporter of Egwene, who is now in the Tower.<br /><br />If you were kidnapped by someone, wouldn`t you support someone trying to get rid of your kidnapper? </b><br /><br />By what happened in the KOD, this seems a likely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 13:41:09
subject: <b>The quotes...</b>
body:
support your theory. But I wuold see the possibility you point out as an addition. It is still possible to Travel to a distinct location as for example Rand&#180;s Gateway to the Two Rivers (where he gets Loial&#180;s mother and the rest of the party) proves.<br />Well done though!<br /><br />Dopo


created: 2002-04-24 13:42:37
subject: <b>Good points</b>
body:
I agree that Traveling requires the channeler to know the terrain he/she's starting from and that it can be targeted to a person or goal.<br /><br />But Mat still should worry, because remember that gateway the Asha'man used to get to Rand sliced through several men and a horse, none of which I'm sure were intentional.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-24 13:51:48
subject: <b>Theory</b>
body:
I completely disagree with this. If you could simply travel to a person, then any Ash'a'man could just travel to find all traitors, because they know who he is. Sorry it may sound nice, but if you consider all the possible applications of that ability you realise that it would unbalance everything if it actaully worked.


created: 2002-04-24 16:36:38
subject: <b>Interesting point</b>
body:
I never thought about that.<br /><br />Perhaps Rand can find Mat because they are both ta'veren then. Or perhaps there are features to Traveling that aren't being discovered yet.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-25 00:39:03
subject: <b>Solid theory</b>
body:
This is a very solid theory, and most of it Jordan has made simple, several times over, however, the goal point is interesting. I think that to travel to a &quot;goal&quot; or person, you must define your paramaters a bit in your head first. Kinda like saying &quot;I need to be by Mat, in his room&quot; more than &quot;I need to be by mat.&quot; the first gives the destination, although unknown and some safty, and the other could put you a few hundred yards off. Just a thought. Or better yet &quot;I need to defend the Dragon&quot; or &quot;I need to be by the Dragon's side.&quot;


created: 2002-04-25 03:32:28
subject: <b>There is an RJ explanation for the Dumai's Wells thing.</b>
body:
Strait fromn the Creator, Taim came to Cairhien, found rand wasn't there, and then Travelled after the Aes Sedai by Traveling short distances, picking up where they;d gone and Traveling on, until he got to Dumai's Wells. Why? Because, in the Creator's exact words, &quot;Mazrim Taim is a paranoid s.o.b.&quot; <br />Too true eh? Must be a Jaffa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 06:40:02
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
This is just backing up what Glamorn said, if you could just travel to a person, all the evil ashaman could travel to Rand and he'd be deader than inline flares with pockets in the knees... Maybe RJ cocked up... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-25 07:42:33
subject: <b>You forgot two pieces of evidence.</b>
body:
1. In tFoH Rand Skimmed with an Aiel army from Cairhien to Caemlyn, and then, &quot;remembering&quot; how to do it for the first time ever, Traveled from outside the Palace into the Great Hall and stepped out right in front of a frightened Rahvin, who then Traveled in T'A'R.<br /><br />2. In LoC One of the Forsaken (I don't think we know who) made a gateway for some DF Aiel to kill Mat. They came out right by his tent, which they stabbed through, and Mat only survived because he was sleeping just outside the tent and heard twigs being sliced in two by the gateway. He was on the move with his army at this time and had camped for the night, so any Forsaken who knew exactly where he was would have had to be close enough to kill him anyway. Therefore, whichever Forsaken it was had a vague idea of Mat's location, but not an exact one.<br /><br />Well, obviously you're going to have to have some idea where they are, for reasons that have already been stated, but I think all these can be explained by the theory that if you know vaguely where someone is, you can Travel to them. Hopefully you can decide on a distance to be from them, i.e. just as to Travel to Emond's Field Village Green by forming a picture of it in your mind, so in the same way to Travel to Mat you form a picture in your mind of him 5 yards away.<br /><br />Conclusion: you can Travel to a person so long as you know roughly where they are.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 08:42:40
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> To Glamorn...</b>
body:
This notion has already been thought of in randland and was shoved aside because...<br /><br /><i>...I'm surprised you don't suggest striking at Sammael. You and me together, maybe a few of the stronger students, dropping right on top of him in Illian through a gateway. That man had to come from Sammael.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Perhaps,&quot; Taim said shortly, glancing at the Gray Man. &quot;I would give a great deal to be sure.&quot; That had the ring of simple truth. &quot;As for Illian, I doubt it would be as simple as disposing of a pair of Acs Sedai. I keep thinking what I would do in Sammael's place. I would have Illian warded in boxes, so if a man even thought of channeling, I'd know right where he was, and I would burn even the ground to ash before he had time to take a breath.&quot;</i><br /><br /><b>LoC Letters </b><br /><br /><br />I hope this clears up something<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 08:44:23
subject: <b>More WOT/DBZ connections</b>
body:
To jump to a totally different fantasy world, this sounds a lot like instant transmission in DragonBall Z.  I don't know how explicit this is in the English translation, but in order for Goku to teleport somewhere, he has to concentrate on a person in that location.  In other words, he can only transport to people, not places.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 08:58:38
subject: <b>To drgnrbrn316</b>
body:
Mat is still safe if he is the target of the person Traveling to him. It is those around him that is not safe (such as the horses)<br /><br />take this for example<br />Mat asked Elayne about this...<br /><br /><i>&quot;You can open a gateway in sight of Ebou Dar. We aren't any bloody army to scare anyone, and as for popping out of air, you're Aes Sedai. People expect you to pop out of air and walk through walls.&quot;</i><br /><br />to which Elayne responds...<br /><br /><i>&quot;A gateway is quite dangerous. I do not intend to kill some poor man's sheep or cows, much less the poor man himself.&quot;</i><br /><br />Do you understand why she is worried to that <i>poor man</i>? because they are Traveling to Ebou Dar, not to that poor man<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 13:20:42
subject: <b>Umm</b>
body:
The quote which jahar narishma stated as far as I can see has no real relavance excpet that Sammuel is lever enough to watch his back!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 16:04:43
subject: <b>Rant and bloody rave</b>
body:
There's been a bunch of C R A P theories lately ( Traveling, Blacksmiths and rehashes of Verin's channeling in a stedding - did not happen - just touched the poor thing) while some good ones went missing. Including mine on where Ishamael/Moridin was severed when Rand killed him in Tear as a reason why he uses the True Power completely now.<br /><br />A MESSAGE to those who claim they are admins. Let the majority decide whether a theory exists. Kick out those whose grammer resembles that of a Korean motherboard manual if you wish, but just because you have fixed, unchangable beliefs in the books and that you don't want any little upstart shattering those beliefs isn't good enough.<br /><br />And I wonder if some admins can read English properly, based on comments I received. As an author and English student, I write clearly and consisely.<br /><br />There, I've had my rant. Do what the H E L L you like to me, I don't give a continental anymore.<br /><br />WOT rules, I dunno about WotMania. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 20:03:47
subject: <b>cool theory, but...</b>
body:
That would explain the Asha'man and Taim at Dumani's Wells.  I always wondered about that.<br /><br />On the other hand, why would all the Forsaken run to Rand while he and Nynaeve cleansed saidin?  The reason Rand and Nynaeve needed Callandor and all those protectors was because they knew the Forsaken would react to that much of the One Power being channeled as if it was a beacon.<br />If the Forsaken can simply Travel to Rand at any time they want, then they wouldn't have freaked out and tried to attack him when they sensed the One Power being used in large amounts.  Hell; a Forsaken can just take that male a'dam from Suroth and collar him.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-26 04:04:38
subject: <b>to Sparrahawk</b>
body:
If Taim thinks it very likely that Sammael will do that, perhaps he is afraid of what Rand is capable of doing. Hence, he doesn't just jump in on Rand with several of his ashaman. He is just being cautious.<br /><br /><br />cheers!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 19:50:52
subject: <b>T'A'R</b>
body:
Maybe it requires the same kind of 'knowing' that is needed to look in on someone's dreams in the space between T'A'R and the waking world.  It is easiest to locate the dreams of those you are close to...it may be that traveling 'to' someone requires that same familiarity, they just do it without thought.  As for not popping out on top of someone who can channel(Rand)... you can feel the gateway forming, and to someone holding the power its as simple as a thought to lash out at wherever the gateway opens before the opener can react.  I surely wouldn't want to risk surprising someone I thought may be going mad, and who is suspicious of just about everyone.


created: 2002-04-27 09:49:37
subject: <b>Elayne in Braem Wood?</b>
body:
A little off topic, but after meeting with the Borderland rulers... &quot;[Elayne] could have woven a gateway to the Palace stableyard, but only at the risk of killing someone who happened to be crossing where it opened, so instead she wove one for another place she knew just as well.&quot;  Is this an error on RJ's part?  This was her first time at this spot in Braem Wood, we saw the continuity of action from the moment she Travelled out of Caemlyn, so she should not have been able to make that Gateway.  Am I wrong?   OA


created: 2002-04-29 19:41:33
subject: <b>Tracking devices...</b>
body:
We've seen Moiraine put tracking device coins into Mat and Rand's hand.  Maybe others can Travel towards a tracking device (such as Taim had many opportunities to give to Rand, as Rand to Mat).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 02:46:22
subject: <b>re: Elayne in Braem Wood</b>
body:
'Gateway' here may just be referring to Skimming, rather than Traveling, as both require opening of a gateway. In the referred scene, it says 'so instead she wove one for another place she knew just as well' suggesting that both her choices for destination were places she was familiar with, and Skimming requires one to be familiar with the destination and not so much the origin.


created: 2003-02-01 00:39:06
subject: <b>Good Thinking</b>
body:
I completely agree. Just like Gohku and his instant transmission. Locking in on someone's power or life force or something like that.


created: 2003-04-28 19:20:11
subject: <b>T'A'R and Traveling</b>
body:
I can see why you would need to know the starting point before you traveled, because its like in T'A'R you need to have a firm grip on yourself in order to make anything happen the way you intend. I also beleive though that its possible to travel to a cause, or a person if the need is enough, just like in T'A'R. Forming a weave to Travel seems to me like going from one place to another in T'A'R because you're bending the patten, making two points the same spot like females do, and cuting a hole in the pattern, like the males do...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 14:09:27
subject: <b>Land of Madmen</b>
body:
This is clearly stated in the Guide to WoT to be an island which has a primitive structure but it is caused not by social decline but by the fact that they were cut off with a small populos on a big island covered in volcanos and close to the icebergs and so they never recovered from the <br />Breaking<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><u><b>Owner</b></u> of Mat Girl - I have it in <i>writing</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>'Wight now I imagwin your feewing a bit wike Awice, tumbewing down the wabbit hoewl'</i>-<b><u>Morpheus</u></b><br /><br /><b><u>I am <i>NOT</i> a Zoo!</u></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 17:44:28
subject: <b>Umm....I don't think so</b>
body:
While you maybe right that it is an opinion, I think that the narrator is saying that while it is the 3rd age, the people b4 it, after it, and maybe even during it can call it an age that has happened (and that maybe true from instances like in EOTW when H says I have fought along side you and against you). The already has happened is easy to explain simply by stating that the wheel has turned this way before. The people before it could say that it is an age that is coming. The people after it can say that it as if refering to an era (much like the current people referr to the age of legends). The people of the age can also refer to it as an age yet to come because since the wheel continues to turn, it will come again. Also, you seem to think along a linear fashion. In the WOT, everything happens again and again. If we think linearly, it won't happen the same way (roughly) twice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 20:06:55
subject: <b>The skeleton in the Panarch's palace. . .</b>
body:
Whoever said that it was a dragon is a f**kin retard!!!  Dragons (besides Rand's TITLE)  do NOT exist in the WoT!!! End of story!!!  If you idiots want dragons,  go read some stupid ass generic crap!!!!!!!  and stop trying to fit them into the precious goodness that is WoT!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />everyone that wants dragons to be in WoT can burn in the Pit!!!!!!!!!<br />and by the way some of you... To'raken and raken are NOT dragons either... get off the dragon high.  god!!!!!


created: 2002-04-25 20:17:00
subject: <b>the WHEEL of time</b>
body:
&quot;Ages come and pass...&quot;  &quot;the Wheel turns...&quot;<br /><br />The numbers are as significant as numbering the spokes on a wheel.  You can call them &quot;1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8,&quot; but you can't say that &quot;8&quot; is the last one.  &quot;8&quot; is the spoke between &quot;7&quot; and &quot;1&quot;.<br /><br />Likewise, the only defining characteristic of this so-called &quot;Third Age&quot; is that it came after the Age of Legends, and before the [whatever the next Age is].  The number is just a name.  And like all names (especially in Randland), it varies depending on who you talk to.


created: 2002-04-25 21:27:51
subject: <b>Too Many Assumptions</b>
body:
I think it's a fairly good theory, but you make assumptions there is no proof for.<br /><br />Like why should the dinosaur age be the first one? Just because we think of dinosaurs coming way before everything else? Why not include the Big Bang, and the 3 1/2 billion years (or whatever) before there was any kind of multi-celled life? The &quot;called the Third Age by some&quot; reference I think refers to the fact that the WOT has no beginning or end. To number the ages would completely defy that entire concept. The same basic events happen in each age, but there is no numbered order. I don't think there is a first age and last age in the repeating cycle. The Third Age is just some arbitrary name given it by whatever people named it that. Which I suppose could be evidence that man has been around for about 3 ages. I dunno.<br /><br />But furthermore, we don't even know that the basic events in each age are ordered like this. We know that there were obviously wooly mammoths roaming Randland some time in some past age, and there were portal stones and people talking to wolves before the AOL, and we know whatever else concrete information we have been given. Other than that, any postulation we can make about what happens in each age is just that and only that: a postulation. It is pointless to even think about stuff like that.<br /><br />Sei'Taer<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-26 03:17:43
subject: <b>EVERY Age is &quot;Called the Third Age by Some&quot;</b>
body:
Consider the earlier part of that quote...&quot;Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.  Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.&quot;<br /><br />During each Age, the previous Age will eventually come to be known as &quot;the Age of Legends&quot;, because the memories are gone.  There will be some concept of things that pre-date the Age of Legends: things, events and people that were Legendary in the prior Age.  These are myths and clearly took place in an Age before the AoL.  Nothing prior to the &quot;Myth Age&quot; is remembered at all, or at least not as preceding it.<br /><br />Therefore, from the perspective of any viewer far enough into an Age, the &quot;Myth Age&quot; is the First (earliest) Age (known). The Age of Legends is the Second Age, and the current Age (whichever it is) is the Third.


created: 2002-04-26 07:33:53
subject: <b>Wheel as in circle</b>
body:
When the ages all fit into an endless wheel their is no true definition of first and last.  The wheel is constantly spinning and the first age for some could be considered the last by others.  The numbering of ages is incredibly insignificant and cannot be done accurately anyhow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I the shadow of time or is time a figment of my imagination.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Never underestimate human stupidity.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 13:43:54
subject: <b>As others have said</b>
body:
the number doesn't matter. You could call it the Third Age or the Seventy-Seventh Age, and it still doesn't mean anything<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 15:11:33
subject: <b>If You Want Evolution in the Wheel...</b>
body:
...and you want to start with dinosaurs, you have to &quot;end&quot; with a cataclysm that knocks everything BACK to the dinosaurs or you won't have a wheel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 15:55:05
subject: <b>I totally disagree....</b>
body:
The reason some people call it the third age is because the AOL was probaly known as the second age, since there was almost no memory of the ages before it.  Ergo Lew Therin was just a guy they called the dragon, not someone destined to beat the DO.  As to the comment that all previous ages are known as AOL I disagree, in the next age, this age will probably be known as 'the age of profecy', I actually think it's in the books somewhere.  If you read the quotes from the next age in the books, it doesn't sound like a world in decline to me, I think this age was simply a dark-age.<br /><br />RJ could have written it as our world, but I don't think he did.  We do not have ages, we can trace fossil and geological records back to the beginning of our planet.  There was no planet before.  I think people forget that this is supposed to be fiction!!!  RJ has put in some similar things from our world to keep the book interesting, but that's it.  Tolkien did the same, that wasn't our world either!!!  Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, I know nobody really believes it's our world, but even from the books I don't think RJ is pretending it is.<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-27 09:56:22
subject: <b>It's a Wheel of Time</b>
body:
Mad Ashaman is right, among a few others; the number is irrelevant, since it's a wheel.  The theory's author does seem to agree that our Age is the Age before the Age of Legends, which is really all you can say.  This decline of man thing, though, it's a little too nouveau-scientific for me.  If an Age lasts about 3000 years, why can't there have been umpteen cycles already and as many yet to go, given that even in the modern west we think mankind has been around for roughly a million years in the current form?<br /><br />Anyway, don't try to pin numbers and specifics to something like this.  It's a mythological way of looking at things, and only works on a relative level.


created: 2002-04-27 22:15:06
subject: <b>Randland is not earth</b>
body:
People people, I am sick of everyone trying to fit WoT as some part of history of earth.  Stop trying to do it it just makes for long boring reading and takes up space that could be used for better theorys.  Robert Jordan takes some things that could have been from history but lets face it he just puts it in his STORY as part of it.  Anyone who attempts to make WoT as history is well just not too bright, and enjoys wasting our time.  I like the posts about how the ages come and go in the books but I am annoyed at trying to make it real.  WoT is a fictional book. That is all.(A good one but still just a book)


created: 2002-04-28 22:08:53
subject: <b>The skeleton was an elephant</b>
body:
The fact that no one could recognise it was because they died out in randland &amp; lived in Seanchan, being called sredit. Who said dragon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer


created: 2002-04-28 23:13:05
subject: <b>To Jack_And_Coke , , ,</b>
body:
Your theory seems to indicate that mankind will be obliterated in Age 7.  I suppose the Wheel can go for a time with humans, but I would suggest that in WoT, man has always existed, and will always exist.<br /><br />The whole idea of fantasy writing is to create a believable ficticious world.  It doesn't have to correlate to our history.<br /><br />Just a thought . . .<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-29 19:48:52
subject: <b>Huge hole</b>
body:
Our history has none of Wot's events.  Theoretically, Age 7 (age of dinosaurs?) ends all and re-begins at age 1.  I think historians would notice events like in the books.  The other option is that time restarts in age 5 (we have quotes from what is definitely stated as THE 4th age at the start of one of the books) and age 6 is our time, but I think that's kind of stupid in that if I were king of the universe, I'd call the first age after restart age 1.<br /><br />Oh, yes.  I am 99.999999999999999999253782893% positive that it IS mentioned that it is the third age in one of the books or the Guide or some other &quot;reputable&quot; material.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 21:35:51
subject: <b>Well. . . .</b>
body:
You're shooting in the right direction but you are missing the target.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 12:57:28
subject: <b>am i stupid??</b>
body:
am i just stupid or did it in the ninth book at the very end of it say that the &quot;age of illusions&quot; ended??


created: 2002-07-14 23:34:25
subject: <b>ever heard of altantis</b>
body:
all over the world there are legends of great human civilisation previous to recorded history. Noahs arc the gilgamesh epic, atlantis and the vedas are a few examples of these legends. Some radical scientists claim mankind is far older then conventional science claims. many believe the pyramids to be far older and more advanced in design then egyptologists state. Maybe mr jordan is aware of these things....


created: 2003-07-25 19:32:13
subject: <b>nonsense</b>
body:
Although in the books there are hints that our world is another age, our world is only another age in the wheel of time. In reality it is not, basically because time is linear, so it makes no sense to merge a circular history with a linear one. <br /><br />All fiction is based on the suspension of disbelief. It is OK to suspend belief and believe Randland is real, and everything in it including our world as being part of the wheel of time is real, but all this theorizing about how our age relates to Randland is stupid and shows a lack of understand for what an age is.<br /><br />The AOL ended with a breaking, the 3rd age will end with a breaking and the next age will remember little of the age before and just about nothing from two ages before, and finally when the age comes around again nothing is remembered. So fitting in somehting like the birth of christ or the ice age makes no sense. Ultimately you can't fit the pieces of how our age and the 3rd age fit together because one is real life and the other is from a fanstasy series.


created: 2004-06-16 01:45:32
subject: <b>Wow, it;s been a long time...</b>
body:
First of all... those of you who thought this post was going towards a mesh of the books and real life.....<br />are you F**King stupid or just F**King stoned. Do you want me to make up a whole new universe to explain my theory? If so, go read another series as they have many alternatives to offer. All my theory suggests is a world similar to our own so you can grasp the concept. Someone give me another oreder of the ages to contradict mine and then we'll talk. Until then, if you don't have an alternative, don't talk. You are just blowing smoke. <br /><br />Deathbone1:<br />While you maybe right that it is an opinion, I think that the narrator is saying that while it is the 3rd age, the people b4 it, after it, and maybe even during it can call it an age that has happened (and that maybe true from instances like in EOTW when H says I have fought along side you and against you). The already has happened is easy to explain simply by stating that the wheel has turned this way before. The people before it could say that it is an age that is coming. The people after it can say that it as if refering to an era (much like the current people referr to the age of legends). The people of the age can also refer to it as an age yet to come because since the wheel continues to turn, it will come again. Also, you seem to think along a linear fashion. In the WOT, everything happens again and again. If we think linearly, it won't happen the same way (roughly) twice.<br /><br />Read it again. It was presented a wheel.<br /><br />Sei' Taer:<br />I think it's a fairly good theory, but you make assumptions there is no proof for.<br /><br />Like why should the dinosaur age be the first one? Just because we think of dinosaurs coming way before everything else? Why not include the Big Bang, and the 3 1/2 billion years (or whatever) before there was any kind of multi-celled life? The &quot;called the Third Age by some&quot; reference I think refers to the fact that the WOT has no beginning or end. To number the ages would completely defy that entire concept. The same basic events happen in each age, but there is no numbered order. I don't think there is a first age and last age in the repeating cycle. The Third Age is just some arbitrary name given it by whatever people named it that. Which I suppose could be evidence that man has been around for about 3 ages. I dunno.<br /><br />But furthermore, we don't even know that the basic events in each age are ordered like this. We know that there were obviously wooly mammoths roaming Randland some time in some past age, and there were portal stones and people talking to wolves before the AOL, and we know whatever else concrete information we have been given. Other than that, any postulation we can make about what happens in each age is just that and only that: a postulation. It is pointless to even think about stuff like that.<br /><br />Sei'Taer<br /><br />Again, just so you can visualize this theory. <br />And WTF???<br />&quot;any postulation we can make about what happens in each age is just that and only that: a postulation. <br />It is pointless to even think about stuff like that.&quot; <br />If it is so pointless then why the hell are you reading or even responding to the theory post? Everything here has no true impact on the books or life itself! We are ENJOYING ourselves. Talk sense you F**King hypocrate.<br /><br />Huor:<br /><br />The reason some people call it the third age is because the AOL was probaly known as the second age, since there was almost no memory of the ages before it. Ergo Lew Therin was just a guy they called the dragon, not someone destined to beat the DO. As to the comment that all previous ages are known as AOL I disagree, in the next age, this age will probably be known as 'the age of profecy', I actually think it's in the books somewhere. If you read the quotes from the next age in the books, it doesn't sound like a world in decline to me, I think this age was simply a dark-age.<br /><br />RJ could have written it as our world, but I don't think he did. We do not have ages, we can trace fossil and geological records back to the beginning of our planet. There was no planet before. I think people forget that this is supposed to be fiction!!! RJ has put in some similar things from our world to keep the book interesting, but that's it. Tolkien did the same, that wasn't our world either!!! Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, I know nobody really believes it's our world, but even from the books I don't think RJ is pretending it is.<br /><br />Damn you are so close to making a good argument. First off please spell prophecy correctly. Secondly, how do you get this assumption?...&quot; If you read the quotes from the next age in the books, it doesn't sound like a world in decline to me, I think this age was simply a dark-age.&quot;<br /><br />Redturtleneck:<br />People people, I am sick of everyone trying to fit WoT as some part of history of earth. Stop trying to do it it just makes for long boring reading and takes up space that could be used for better theorys. Robert Jordan takes some things that could have been from history but lets face it he just puts it in his STORY as part of it. Anyone who attempts to make WoT as history is well just not too bright, and enjoys wasting our time. I like the posts about how the ages come and go in the books but I am annoyed at trying to make it real. WoT is a fictional book. That is all.(A good one but still just a book) <br /><br />Ummm, kids look away please... F**k you! You are a presumptious a**hole and need to take your head out of you a** and see what's going on around you. Please see response to Sei' Taer above.<br /><br />Your.Master:<br />Our history has none of Wot's events. Theoretically, Age 7 (age of dinosaurs?) ends all and re-begins at age 1. I think historians would notice events like in the books. The other option is that time restarts in age 5 (we have quotes from what is definitely stated as THE 4th age at the start of one of the books) and age 6 is our time, but I think that's kind of stupid in that if I were king of the universe, I'd call the first age after restart age 1.<br /><br />Oh, yes. I am 99.999999999999999999253782893% positive that it IS mentioned that it is the third age in one of the books or the Guide or some other &quot;reputable&quot; material.<br /><br />Find it in the books and then post your comment. Otherwise you are talking out your ass. BTW, it is not mentioned in the series.<br /><br />Nidaros, you are not stupid...it did say that.<br /><br />slmrcs:<br /><br />Not even gonna copy and paste. Not worth it as you just reformed what the other dissidents said. Please be original on future posts as it is very tiresome to respond in the first place. Oh yeah... please see response to Redturtleneck above.<br /><br />Everyone else. Thank you for sort of agreeing that it is possible (I never said it was THE WAY). If you disagreed and I didn't respond it means you made a compelling argument. Either way...THANKS FOR READING!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-09-05 23:15:11
subject: <b>The Wheel</b>
body:
You are all misunderstanding how the wheel works.  Braid tugger is right:  Man never goes bye-bye. The ages in no way correlate to each other:  one turning of the wheeel has seven ages , the next turning has the same 7, only slightly different. <br />...1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-05 23:45:59
subject: <b>Wheel cont</b>
body:
Each age ends in its own cataclysm.  the seventh age ends in the Greatest of them all, which is why the next age is the first.  So basically, time is the same sequence of events (one turning of the wheel) repeated since time immemorium, and split up into seven ages (spokes).<br /><br />Wolves begin to run with men at the end of every Third Age, and probably stop at the beginning of every Fifth Age.<br /><br />Fell refers to the current age as the third age.<br /><br />Nidaros, you are not stupid, you just got F*cked in translation.  in English it just reads the end of Illusions.<br /><br />The Fourth Age would seem to represent the Rapture: that is it will be the best age.<br /><br />RJ has said our time IS represented in one of the ages, but its probably only a chunk of it:  ie, no dinos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 21:48:53
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
This is a pretty interesting theory. I like how you point out that the Old Man could be Charin, whom I personnally believe to be Farstrider, but it just seems a little bt too in depth, even for Jordan. <br /><br />I mean, I have read the series many times and I never noticed any similarities and that is saying something. I DO consider myself quite observant, but if this is true, then I think that Jordan is getting a little bit TOO subtle with the clues. I always thought that the memory failure was a bit odd and since Charin is IMHO Farstrider, I always just attributed his 'sickness' to Ishmael's job on him. This is quite a noodle scratcher and opens up new cans.<br /><br />Then again, Jordan said that there are things he cant believe fans have not discovered yet. Mabye this is one of them <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 11:58:14
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Mat talked to the old man outside of Carridin's palace.  But when the old man helps him with the gholam in WH, Mat never gives any indication that this is the same man that he talks to at Carridin's palace.  Is there any good evidence that the two old men are the same person?


created: 2002-04-26 14:15:43
subject: <b>a few problems</b>
body:
Its certainly possible that Noal Charin is Graendal's old man, perhaps even more likely if he turns out to be jain farstrider himself.<br /><br />A couple of problems though:<br />1.  From both Sammael and Graendal's point of view, we are told that the sharan rulers were a diversion to hide something else.  The forsaken seem to be pretty well informed about the world in general; they don't seem to need informants to find out the basics.  Graen is much more likely to have gotten a person from shara, or to have gone there herself, to get info about it, rather than using an old man.<br />2.  I don't think Graendal knew about the store in Ebou Dar.  She knew that Sammael had a cache-that's why she went to Illian immediatly after his death to go through his stuff.  If she really knew about the ebou dar stuff, wouldn't she have sent a channeler who would be able to sense an angreal or ter'angreal?  how would a single non-channeler find such a store?<br />3.  The memory problem....the old man's memory problem seems different from what affected nyneave and elayne, who didn't realize that they had memories missing after moghedian compulsed them.  Graendal is a master of compulsion, i don't think she would allow a victim to have any notion that something isn't right.<br /><br />Your basic theory could still easily be correct; there's no real proof either way.  My instinct tells me that he isn't Graen's man, but i guess we'll have to RAFO!


created: 2002-04-26 16:10:39
subject: <b>This is What Theories are Supposed to be Like!!!!</b>
body:
Fantastic!  Even though I think that not all of the references are necessarily to the same old man, the theory is well-thought out and makes us actually think about what's going on.<br /><br />The only question is: why is he necessarily under the control of Graendal now that Ishamael is back as Moridin?  Graendal may have just used him temporarily for information on Shara, with Moridin taking back control of him after making his appearance.<br /><br />Just a thought, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 20:13:31
subject: <b>Evidence that Charin is Farstrider</b>
body:
I was reading EotW today, shortyly after reading this theory, and I came across this passage:<br /><br /><i>&quot;[Cowin Fairheart] was taken by Jain Charin - already called Jain Farstrider - when Fairheart was brought to the Seven Towers in chains,...&quot;</i><br />- Eye of the World, Chapter 47 Tales of the Wheel, page 710 (Tor paperback)<br /><br />This is from Lord Agelamar's account of the fall of Malkier, and it implicates that Jain Farstrider was orignally named Charin, the name &quot;Farstrider&quot; an appellation much like Artur Paendrag's &quot;Hawkwing.&quot;<br />Evidently, Farstrider has started using his original last name, possibly because his memory is so muddled by Graendal's use of Compulsion.<br /><br />This is a good theory, I never saw the connection to Graendal before, but it is feasible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 01:07:53
subject: <b>Why Charin is the same man who Mat saw spying on Carridin's palace.</b>
body:
here are some quotes to show that Noal Charin, is in fact, the old man that Mat saw spying on Carridin's house.  I took these quotes from the faq on this site.<br /><br /> &quot;a scrawny, white-haired fellow?his stooped shoulders and weathered face did not fit his fine gray coat?the old man tapped a gnarled finger against the side of his beak of a nose. Both looked to have been broken several times.&quot;<br /><br />-A Crown of Swords, White Plumes <br /><br />Later we see:<br /><br /> &quot;His hands no longer possessed the strength or flexibility for swordwork, but the two long knives he had carried for well over thirty years had surprised more than one swordsman.&quot;<br /><br />-A Crown of Swords, The Triumph of Logic <br /><br />The Faq goes on to say this:<br /><br />&quot;We next see the old man in Winter?s Heart, a stoop shouldered, white-haired old man with a large hooked nose, a grey coat, and crooked, knobbly fingers who admits to having been in Ebou Dar for some time. Unless there are two old men like this wandering around in Ebou Dar, both important to the storyline, with the same description, it?s the same man. He tells Mat his name is Noal Charin. Farstrider?s name was Jain Charin. This is one clue that he is Farstrider. He could, of course, be Farstrider?s little brother, but that would be incredibly lame. Mat offers him a bed with the Redarms, and he accepts. He is an excellent storyteller.&quot;<br /><br /><br />So, it the old man in Ebou Dar is almost assuredly Noal Charin.  Likewise, Noal Charin is almost definitely Jain Charin aka Jain Farstrider.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 01:35:33
subject: <b>To answer your questions and thoughts</b>
body:
&quot;1. From both Sammael and Graendal's point of view, we are told that the sharan rulers were a diversion to hide something else. The forsaken seem to be pretty well informed about the world in general; they don't seem to need informants to find out the basics. Graen is much more likely to have gotten a person from shara, or to have gone there herself, to get info about it, rather than using an old man.&quot;<br /><br />This is true.  But Graendal can't do everything herself.  A man such as Charin may have been very useful to her in Shara.  Plus, Charin has an insite on 2 cultures, his own and the Sharans.  His ability to interpret the Sharan culture from the perspective of people from Randland could be useful to Graendal.  Charin could have also been one of the people to get Graendal interested in Shara in the first place.<br /><br /><br />&quot;2. I don't think Graendal knew about the store in Ebou Dar. She knew that Sammael had a cache-that's why she went to Illian immediatly after his death to go through his stuff. If she really knew about the ebou dar stuff, wouldn't she have sent a channeler who would be able to sense an angreal or ter'angreal? how would a single non-channeler find such a store?&quot;<br /><br />After Sammael told Graendal about the stash, she probably sent her spies on as many agents as Sammael's as she could locate.  Graendal probably sent spies to multiple cities at first.  It probably took Graendal awhile to pick up on where Sammael was getting the stash.  Graendal might not have even learned that the stash was actually Ebou Dar until shortly after it was removed.  <br /><br />As to why Graendal didn't send a channeler:  There were too many channelers in that city already, and risking detection could have been a dangerous prospect.  A man like Charin, however, could find out about the stash through old-fashioned means of spying, and then alert Graendal herself once he had a possible lock on where the cache was.  Placing the exact location of the cache doesn't really require a channeler, it just requires someone with a good instinct for detective work.<br /><br />We also have to ask another question here:  Why else would Charin be spying on both Carridin and Falion?  These were the parties that were hunting for the stash.  The connection is highly notable. I can only think of 2 explanations here.  1.  He is a darkfriend hunter and he tries to track down darkfriends.  2.  He is under the spell of Graendal.    <br /><br />If Noal is really Jain Charin, then he is no stranger to hunting down darkfriends.  But this option still doesn't seem as likely as Noal being caught up by Graendal, especially when you take into account Grandal's old man and Noal's memory problems.  And also the fact that Farstrider was under the spell of Ishmael once before.  <br /><br />What I think happened in Ebou Dar was that Graendal knew the Kin was there and had a hunch that is where the cache was also.  Therefore, she sent her best pet/agent (Noal Charin) down there to track it.  She didn't know for sure it was there, but just had a hint.  When she finally that the cache was there, it was too late.  She didn't want to send men to fight Sammael's men (especially cause she was under the control of Sammael at that point).  So she gritted her teeth and waited.  Once Sammael died, she immiatedly travelled to Illian to seize his possesions.  The only way she could have known that he had the cache so quickly was if she had had a good spy in Ebou Dar for her.  This points to Charin.  <br /><br />3. &quot;The memory problem....the old man's memory problem seems different from what affected nyneave and elayne, who didn't realize that they had memories missing after moghedian compulsed them. Graendal is a master of compulsion, i don't think she would allow a victim to have any notion that something isn't right.&quot;<br /><br />Charin is old, and he also was probably under Compulsion from Ishmael before.  Nynaeve and Elayne's case of compulsion is a little different from Charins.  In their case, Moghedien gave them a few minor instructions and told them to forget about everything.  Moggy kind of underestimated Nyn and Elayen as harmless and naive, and she let them off easily.<br /><br />In Charin's case, Graendal kind of had to make Noal Charin forget everything about himself.  If Charin remembered anything about who he formerly was, then he might begin to question what he was doing.  And if he questioned, then he might begin to disobey some.  Therefore, Graendal had to make him forget much of his past.  Graendal likes docile pets who obey her every command, and not men who have an untamed and wild nature to them.  Thus, she would have to 'weed out' some of Charin's past, to make him more fit to be her pet.<br /><br />I do not have my books on me right now, but I think one example that might be helpful is that of Morgase's.  If my memory recollect, Morgase had certain memory or behavior problems when Rahvin put her under heavy doses of compulsion.  I could be wrong here, but I thought I remembered that Morgase said something wierd to her happened under her time with Rahvin.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />'The only question is: why is he necessarily under the control of Graendal now that Ishamael is back as Moridin? Graendal may have just used him temporarily for information on Shara, with Moridin taking back control of him after making his appearance.'<br /><br />It could be quite a lengthy process of Moridin to retrieve all of his former agents.  Plus, as you see with Aliviarin and Mesaana, he has not yet retrieved Alviarin and the BA either.  Moridin has had alot more important things on his plate lately than reclaiming all his old agents.  Plus, Graendal has also submitted herself to Moridin at this point in the story.  That means that Moridin might be able to control Charin indirectly anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 02:45:01
subject: <b>One more possibility</b>
body:
This one regards Shara. <br /><br />Graendal could have found Noal in Shara and brought him back with her.  This is also a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 10:05:25
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
I do like this theory.  I've wanted to believe for a while that Graendel was up to something other than masturbating to over-Compelled nobles in Arad Doman.<br /><br />I still don't understand, though, Why Mat does not remember Noal if he is indeed the same man who was sitting outside Carridin's pad?  Was he sort of disguised?  The descriptions DO match up, though.<br /><br />I really, really like a theory presented above, that the Compulsion has effectively erased his memory of himself as Jain Farstrider.  That would explain a lot I think.<br /><br />But, one counterargument worth considering: someone pointed out that the old man at Graendel's Pleasure Palance might have been that fifth great captain, and as of WH we now know that there is indeed an army moving in Arad Doman.  (North-East, I would assume?  A topic for a different theory.<br /><br />But the evidence seems to point to Grandel I think.


created: 2002-04-27 18:40:58
subject: <b>This is ridiculous</b>
body:
The only connection between Noal and Graendal is an old man seen at Graendals place.  That is ridiculous Thom is described as an &quot;old man&quot;.  This entire theory is based on horribly lame assumptions.  As for Shara Graendal just wanted to make Sammael think she was interested there.  Besides if Noal is Farstrider (I like that idea) he only visited there for a little while.  It would probably have done Graendal better to get an Aiel or one of the Sea Folk for the information she could have gotten from him.(Then she could have kept her to standards) Another thing is that if Graendal had Charin under Compulsion I dont think he would even be able to remeber he lost his memories (she is to good at Compulsion to allow that) Charin's memories are bungled up cause of what Ishy did to him as Farstrider (which I dont think was Compulsion).<br />In conclusion to this rant and rave very bad theory and not very well though out.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> thanks for tryin though.


created: 2002-04-27 22:00:43
subject: <b>Compulsion</b>
body:
The case of Morgase under Rahvin's Compulsion shows that people can realize that their memories have been tampered with. Morgase was even able to shake off the Compulsion through sheer force of will.<br /><br />True, Graendal almost certainlyhas more skill than Rahvin did, but that just means that Charin isn't likely to break free. But Charin must be a strong willed individual, and isn't it reasonable to suppose that he would fight the compulsion enough to temporarily realize something wasn't right with his memory?<br /><br />His mind turned from that line of thought quickly, another indication of some form of compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 01:58:10
subject: <b>to redturtleneck</b>
body:
your reply wasn't very well thought, as mad ashamen just pointed out in the case of Morgase in Rahvin and compulsion.<br /><br />You missed the most important possible link between Graendal and Noal:  the fact that Noal was spying on both Carridin and Falion.  <br /><br />That is a very important point and not easily explained away.<br /><br />When you couple the other points in my theory it adds up.  <br /><br />True, some points(the graendal's old man point) are a little shaky.  But Noal spying on both Carridin and Falion is not at all shaky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 18:34:05
subject: <b>I meant nothing personal.</b>
body:
Matrimony Cauthon I meant nothing personal in my reply (I have enjoyed several of your other theories).  I just feel that you are trying to build your entire theory on one small possible connection between Graendal and Noal.  Noal spying on both of those guys is suspicious but doesnt connect him to Graendal in any way.  If my reply was taken as offensive by you I apologize but I just dont see any firm correlation between the two (Noal and Graendal).<br />Also I believe that Graendal would use someone a little more attractive than Noal I mean she seems to enjoy beautiful people but Noal is clearly not a very good lookin person.


created: 2002-04-28 19:19:23
subject: <b>no worries</b>
body:
I appreciate the critical analysis of my work, and try to stay as detached from it as possible.<br /><br />I wasn't sure if you were sneaking personal comments in there or not, but now I that you didn't mean too.<br /><br />So, no worries.<br /><br />Good thing Columbo isn't here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 19:20:53
subject: <b>Another Old Guy</b>
body:
There's an Old Guy darkfreind hanging around Ebou Dar at the same time to. Carridin and that girl darkfriend, Lady Shaiel, or something like it, both refer to an old man Darkfriend named Old Cully, I think. I always thought it was old cully hanging out in front of Carridin's place, bbut I'm not sure of that. I'm just saying that this second old man might be causing confusion, we might be getting Him mixed up with Moal, or he may be Noal. I just didn't see any mention of this guy earlier.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 11:21:23
subject: <b>Off the Subject</b>
body:
Something else interesting that your theory made me think of is the Ishamael connection.  When you wrote in that quote about Ishamael saying he had made a fool of Farstrider by sending him to the Ogier (in EoTW), I have to wonder why he would do that.  Why would the master (or so we would think) of the Game of Houses (sorry I can't remember how to spell the Old Tongue version) release someone who had such vital information about the Dark One's plans?  Farstrider (assuming the rest of the theory is correct) was able to help stop the Dark One (Ishy, in this case) from using the saidin in the Eye, and thereby stop whatever he was planning to do with it.  <br />Anyway, just a thought.


created: 2002-04-30 16:41:22
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
To HoratioBoobles:<br />Noal is not Old Cully, but you are right about Old Cully causing confusion. I think many people (myself included) should reread some of those scenes so we know which old man is which.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 18:43:11
subject: <b>Old Cully</b>
body:
HoratioBoobles:  Yup, I always thought the old man in front of Carridin's palace was Old Cully.  Mat does have a spotty memory, but surely he would recognize Noal as being that old man, if that was the case.  It was only a few months ago in WOT time.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-14 17:47:10
subject: <b>Graendel and compulsion</b>
body:
I've read a lot about Graen's &quot;mastery&quot; of compulsion.   She isn't very good at it, she just uses it alot.  weren't 2 of the other forsaken discussing something along this line with one of them (was it Sammael or Rahvin?) saying she &quot;had no touch&quot; and the other agreeing with a remark about how most of the poor souls she grabs can't think at all, even remember their names?  She uses compulsion frequently because she likes mindless (beautiful) toys.  <br />I believe there was another such situation where compusion was being discussed and it was said others were much better, she just used it more.  I don't have the books with me or i would have tried to be more specific.<br /><br />By the way, when I say she wasn't very good at that, I mean she has the subtlety of a hippo (and not the one in Fantasia), not that she is weak in that power.<br /><br /><br />&quot;I heard the Grateful Dead Play for four hours.  Great Song&quot;


created: 2004-03-09 01:42:36
subject: <b>A couple of things. . . .</b>
body:
First, Graendal is not very good at Compulsion?  I beg to differ:<br /><br />From Chapter 6, LoC &quot;Threads Woven of Shadow&quot;: (Sammael's thoughts about Gren) &quot;She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her.  In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.&quot;<br /><br />Also, the question of Farstrider's visit to the Ogier, and what Ishy meant by &quot;painting him like a fool and sending him to the Ogier, thinking he was free of me&quot; has never been fully addressed (that I've seen, at least).  Fiona mentions it above, but misses the point.  Why did Ishy send Jain to the Ogier?  To tell them exactly what he did; that the Eye of the World was in danger.  Why would he want them to know that?  So Rand would come, and find Aginor and Balthamel waiting for him.  It was a trap, and Jain's info was the bait. . . .<br /><br />I would assume that he had been held by Ishy for some time, probably during the time he &quot;disappeared&quot; into the blasted lands (unsure of the timing here without studying it), and was &quot;allowed&quot; to overhear this information and escape.<br /><br />This doesn't address whether Compulsion was used on him or not, but it doesn't really matter to this point in the argument.  However, as a further extension, I'd suggest that whatever state he was in at the time of his visit to the Ogier has kept him wandering for the intervening years, unable to remember much.  Now, whether he's under Graendal's control or not, his mind may be starting to come back. . . .


created: 2006-09-30 02:37:38
subject: <b>I don't know if anyone is still reading this...</b>
body:
I have absolutley no recolection of anything from Noal's point of view...EVER. When was it, I've read the series twice and I never saw it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Daishar<br />AKA<br />Aric Cosamaru<br />Proud Asha'man of the Grey Tower role play site</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-27 11:18:29
subject: <b>reply to fiona</b>
body:
&quot;Something else interesting that your theory made me think of is the Ishamael connection. When you wrote in that quote about Ishamael saying he had made a fool of Farstrider by sending him to the Ogier (in EoTW), I have to wonder why he would do that. Why would the master (or so we would think) of the Game of Houses (sorry I can't remember how to spell the Old Tongue version) release someone who had such vital information about the Dark One's plans? Farstrider (assuming the rest of the theory is correct) was able to help stop the Dark One (Ishy, in this case) from using the saidin in the Eye, and thereby stop whatever he was planning to do with it.<br />Anyway, just a thought.&quot;<br /><br /><br />If ishamael never told farstrider about his tale to blind the eye of the world and kill time bla bla bla then rand and party would never have gone to the eye, and he wouldnt not have been able to follow matt and his dagger.<br /><br />Ishamael knew about the wheel and its forever turning and the past battles between the dragon and the DO he knew about the dagger at the eye of the world. and followed them there.  It was all planed out.<br /><br />he let him get away, so he could tell his tale and follow them to the eye of the world.  With out them to guide him to the eye of the world he would not be able to find it, otherwise he would have just found the eye of the world while rand was a baby and only the green man could stand up to him.<br /><br />This may be a stretch, but I think when matt traveld to flame with rand and he was sayn I would never betray you he saw a life where at the eye of the world he did, reason why is because he was still under the influence of the dagger and I dont see any other time when mat would even think about unless he was under compulsion or something.


created: 2009-08-09 10:00:17
subject: <b>ituralde</b>
body:
i don't think that graendal's old man is ituralde. the description doesn't seem to fit with what we see of him at the beginning of TKOD[?] and it definitely sounds like he is trying to make a stand against the seanchan and obey strange orders from the king of arad doman.<br />the connection with noal and graendal is something i hadn't thought of before but it makes sense and it's very jordan-esque. especially the part where farstrider is the man who came to the ogier stedding.


created: 2002-04-25 21:53:30
subject: <b>*Veils himself*</b>
body:
Get ready to dance. You have revealed our secret. Under ji'e'toh I must take your life, or take you Gaishain.<br /><br />Where do you think our peacekeepers come from?<br /><br />Oh, and I think that my grandma is Sorelia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 23:37:15
subject: <b>It all makes so much sense now</b>
body:
And I walk in the light so I know it to be true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;No Comment&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 04:57:59
subject: <b>BAH</b>
body:
THE PEOPLE ARE NOT READY!!! they can't learn the truth yet all must happen later . ROFLMAO that was a good post


created: 2002-04-26 10:09:46
subject: <b>If Canada is the aiel waste</b>
body:
Then I am a borderlander!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 11:45:28
subject: <b>*smacks forehead*</b>
body:
It is all clear now!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 12:02:21
subject: <b>So I walk in the Shadow</b>
body:
I walk in the Shadow, I want an explanation for all this stuff that you people who walk in the Light already seem to know! <br />*feels left out*<br />*walks away crying*<br />C'mon now! I want to know this stuff too! Gimme an explanation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />. I think you are just biased against us Darkfriends....yeah, that's gotta be it. You hate us! *cry*<br /><br />Hehe. Nice theory.<br /><br /><br />&#8220;Reality is nothing, perception is everything.&#8221;


created: 2002-04-26 14:21:37
subject: <b>I have returned to the light....</b>
body:
After 18 years in the Blight of new jersey, i have managed to escape the shadow and return to the light, living among the nice two rivers folk in the south.  I can reveal the truth now!<br /><br />Shayol Ghul is the New Jersey Turnpike!  Beware the pit of doom, otherwise known as Newark International Airport!<br />


created: 2002-04-26 15:18:52
subject: <b>Black tower is now located near Seattle</b>
body:
and Bill Gates is really Ishy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> HTT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 15:27:15
subject: <b>Yeah Gates is Ishy....</b>
body:
And Brittany Spears is Graendal or maybe Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 16:15:25
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> as Vercingetorix says, &quot;why didn't I think of that?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-26 16:15:47
subject: <b>It all make sense now....</b>
body:
I've even been to Rhuidean, I relived past lives, walked through the golden arches.....wait a minute that was McDonalds after a really rough night.....nevermind<br />


created: 2002-04-27 22:36:07
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
Oh dear god...<br />What we didn't know about the books: Rand has a third Dragon on his butt that no one knows about except for Min, Elayne, and Avi and they're to occupied with the rest of him to comment... Don't argue! The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills!<br />PS The Creator is Henry Ford - Wheel, wheel, get it?!?!?! *batta bing*<br />PPS I walk in the Light! Really, I do! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />PPPS I think Britney Spears is Berelain, and Mat has been reborn but currently resides in a juvenile detention camp...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 03:31:29
subject: <b>MORE PEOPLE Reborn...</b>
body:
I suppose that would also make <br /><br />Micheal JAckson= Asmodean<br />Nsync, Backstreet boys, 98 degrees, new kids on the block, and other boy bands = the various clans of Trollocs.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br />MTV Vjays = Myrddraal  (the control the trollocs) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Carson Daily = Shaidar Haran (the super Myrddraal) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would also like to aply for the possistion of either Elyne, Min, or Avihida reborn.  I walk in the light and I know that to be so.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If brittny is Lanfear reborn will she fight to sleep with the dragoness???  That sounds like Fox TV or Pay per view waiting to happen. <br /><br />Hue Hefner could be MAt reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />(from Master of Battles to Master of Babes) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />That is it <br />-Borderlander..  (who really is from the borderlands then)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 17:38:08
subject: <b>Haha</b>
body:
Hmm...I was thinking that Shara was the Middle East...but ok China works too.  And Bill Gates is totally Moridin. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Melynn Sedai of the Brown Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;The first step towards failure is trying.&quot; -Homer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Organized people are just too lazy to look for things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 00:27:44
subject: <b>LOL!</b>
body:
Nice, I'm Aiel! <br />Perrin no longer talks with wolves. He talks with crocodiles and his name is Steve now. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-29 09:24:27
subject: <b>No, no, no, no, no, no</b>
body:
This is completely wrong. There is no way that Charlize can be the dragon. Firstly, her surname is pronounced Tih'RON, not Therin, secondly she can only be the dragon if she were somehow related to the Groot Krokodil (Great Crocodile) otherwise known as PW Botha of South Africa, (At last count he had several illegitimate children but not her), and lastly, the true Dragon Reborn is named Charles C. Carruthers the Fourth who works three cubicles down from me and whose PC was struck by lightning two nights ago. We work three stories underground for the secret CIA organization known in spy circles as the Knitting Circle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 17:18:17
subject: <b>Finland</b>
body:
We Finns are still making miracres like mobile phones and  nowadays we don't hang anyboby, but we only want your Euros. So we are much friendlier than our ancestors who had bad habit of killing  their customers. So if you want that your wishes become true you can always visit us by using services of Finnair. Finnair has replaced those gateways as best way to get to Finland, so nowadays it is easier to contact and make deals with us. Naturally assuming that you have enough Euros to pay the price. After all that thing haven't changed. However I must warn you that you if you haven't enough money we will become very angry<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-02 15:25:44
subject: <b>hmmm..............</b>
body:
And the swiss must follow the way of the leaf right do that makes them tinkers!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> DaRkNiGhT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother to Shadowkiller <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 04:34:57
subject: <b>and all the others are.............</b>
body:
The Cairhienen -- The French because they still know how to screw up a government without even trying.<br /><br />The Mayeners -- The Dutch. Great seafarers, but still not big enough to avoid getting their butts kicked by the bigger countries.<br /><br />The Illianers -- The English. Goods seafarers, but believe the Sun sets on their backsides!<br /><br />Altarans/Ebou Dari -- The Sicilians. Will Whack somebody at the drop of a hat. Need I say more?<br /><br />Tearans -- The Spanish<br /><br />Ghealdanan -- The Germans. Why? Because like Germany they are constantly brken up into small little packets, fight each other as much as the enemy, but if they ever get it all together, watch out!<br /><br />Amadicians -- Romans/North Italians. Not bad fighters, but can't help being ruled by religious types. The Children then, The Vatican now. See the connection?<br /><br />Taraboners -- The Arab world. Why, you ask? Why NOT!!<br /><br />Arad Doman -- Never advanced to nationhood in modern times, but their woman can be seen everywhere working as Showgirls, B-movie actress's, and Dominatrixes.<br /><br />The Athan Miere -- Obviously the Polynesians. DUH!!<br /><br />The People in the Land of the Madmen -- This area actually broke up and became two separate groups of people. We now call them Californians and Australians.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 19:47:14
subject: <b>tickets</b>
body:
Are they selling tickets to the thing between Lanfear (Britney Spears) and the Unicorn Reborn<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Unicorn Reborn... it rhymes!!!)


created: 2002-06-24 01:18:02
subject: <b>Telemon in the past.</b>
body:
The Unicorn Reborn must have been Telemon (the composer) in the age past.  It all makes sense to me.  See if you can follow me here.  Every other life, the Dragon takes the form of a person who is artistic.  First Lews Therin was artistic.  He could draw, play music, yadda yadda... Then there was Rand.  Rand new nothing of art.  He only learned music later as he started to accept his Dragonness.  Now look at Telemon.  A fabulous composer.  An artist.  Then The Unicorn... see... no talent at all!  It makes perfect sense.  <br /><br />Oh, and side note... Murandy = irish.  Check out the details on their vocal sound.  Definately an irish lilt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/14389.gif" /> nine<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Deborah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am always reading over your shoulder...<br />Member of the English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 01:38:00
subject: <b>hehehe</b>
body:
well, according to Kaen Al-Del, I am a madman then. The only flaw would be either Lanfear Spears and the Unicorn Reborn would both have to be lesbians then? Or maybe in reality Lanfear reborn is actually Ricky Martin, and Britney Spears in Berelain Spears, and she's gonna have to get with one of the Unicorns taveren friends, Jennifer Love-Hewitt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 06:12:05
subject: <b>no, i dont think so</b>
body:
i think that WoT is our future, couse in tGH when mat has blowed on the horn, RJ mentions some names of the heroes, and says, they are &quot;long since forgotten&quot;, these names is typically names used in the present


created: 2002-10-28 22:04:29
subject: <b>Wot is Our Future</b>
body:
WoT is definitely extremely far in our future, as noted when Rand goes through the arches in Rhuidean.


created: 2003-02-12 15:44:28
subject: <b>Tell me you didn't think I was for real?</b>
body:
Note to the two guys above me. Did you think I was for real?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-19 16:43:29
subject: <b>israely problams</b>
body:
I guess I'm the only one from there, but where are we in WOT? it's small (Mayne?) and have a lot of problams with all the Arab lands (Tear hostile take-over?) no offence any Tairan/Arabic.<br />and if I have spellings problams, shoot me! I'm from Israel!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:41:03
subject: <b>I hate to break it to you, but...</b>
body:
Unless you were joking, RJ personally said WoT is our FUTURE. Our Age will end with the discovery of Channeling and a world-wide war (i.e., the first Breaking). When the war ends, the Age of Legends will begin. And, the rest everyone knows.


created: 2005-03-15 22:53:17
subject: <b>Dude above me YOU are wrong...</b>
body:
I walk in the Light so I know this theory to be wholy and completly true!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Focus on the here and now for it is here that you must live, and now that you must make your decisions. Make your decisions wisely. Do not choose with malice or hate for the negative motives lead to negative consequences and you can only choose once.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-01 18:51:50
subject:
<b>the Disney One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
i liked the Demandred=Bush thing too rotflmaso <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If life gives you lemons, squeeze the juice into a water gun and shoot other people in the eyes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 09:12:58
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
First of all I think that your theory is quite well reasoned out, but it just does not have enough evidence to say that he is or is not 'Aemon' reborn.<br /> Mat has loads of dead fellows in his head, and his superior battle tactical and strategical mind could have come any one of these people.<br /> Secondly, when Mat cries 'I am no Aes Sedai meat' it does not reaally make sence seeming as his wife was one. <br /> <br /> Anyway, those are my thoughts for the moment and I apologise if I am wrong.<br /><br /> P.S This has even less evidence but I would love it if he were Hawking reborn!!! <br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-28 11:41:46
subject: <b>Mat/Aemon</b>
body:
In my opinion Mat is not Aemon reborn but he is the heir of the king of Manetheren (this theory could explain the red eagle in Min's viewing) . I have no proof but i'm working on it.


created: 2002-04-28 11:57:28
subject: <b>Good theory but no....</b>
body:
I have always thought that Mat is no one reborn he is mearly a collection of many people. As Moraine said the blood of Manetheren is strong in the Two rivers. Mat's was abit stronger and so it was shown by him spouting old toungue now and again. This is reinforced by Egwene saying that she thought she understood it. This is her blood also but not as strong. The when Mat went through the doorway he was not given the memories but mearly they made them clearer for him so that they became part of his memories. <br />This makes alot of sense and also means that you don't have to be thinking who he is reborn as it is obvious he has far to many memories at different times for just one person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 14:31:28
subject: <b>Interesting, but...</b>
body:
Your reasoning is terrific, but I suspect there's something you're missing (and I'm not sure what). <br /><br />What makes it even more interesting is...<br />Perrin is effectively Lord of The Two Rivers now. <br /><br />One might think that those reborn gravitate to their former place.


created: 2002-04-28 15:06:22
subject: <b>Yes, I love it. I've always thought he was Aemon</b>
body:
And the memory from tDR is what first made me think that.  Even before I first came to wotmania.<br /><br />And Re: Sparrahawk's blackboard post<br /><br />What you're saying has been disproved many times.  The factor that does disprove that he's a collage of many souls is how most of them overlap.  He couldn't have been two people at the same time.  He asked for his memories to be filled, and they were filled with the memories of other men.  Including Aemon who was, imho, there from the start.  And since my rereading of tEotW, I've thought Egwene was Aemon's wife reborn(sorry, can't remember her name).  Of course, that's not justified, but they're the only two that can speak it(Egwene not so much speak it as partially recognize what is being said).  And if it comes down to the old blood of Manetheren, why haven't they heard of someone else doing it(speaking the OT)?  They would have heard of someone spouting drivel even if it was in a different villiage in the TR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 15:18:37
subject: <b>king Aemon</b>
body:
was bonded to an Aes Sedai, and would therefore, I think, not have reacted like that to Aes Sedai Healing.<br /><br />Besides that, I do not believe in all these people being reborn again and again... Not ALL the people in these series have to be someone reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 16:17:24
subject: <b>Well, I always attributed this to...</b>
body:
Jordan making a BIG mistake. I think that he originally meant for Mat to be Aemon, but later thought that an analogy to Odin would work better with the actual hanging and more memories. <br /><br />If Mat was Aemon, then why is Perrin drawn back to the TR while Mat wants to leave it forever? Wouldnt it make more sense for their positions to be reversed? <br /><br />To those who keep saying 'not everyone has to be someone reborn' ; the Wheel is circular and therefore everything happens time and time again. With the world dependan on these people, why is it so hard to concieve of all of our friends being someone reborn? Most people in the westlands dont raise a hand in the fighting, so we need real badarses to win a battle against the DO himself. Not that I believe that everyone IS someone reborn, neccisarily, but I dont think that we can discount the possibility that easily.<br /><br />Also, has anyone ever read that theory on how Mat has a 'thing' for Egwene? That could be explainied here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 18:59:47
subject: <b>But what about</b>
body:
Some of Mat's memories overlap.  How can he be only one reborn?  <br />I figured that those memories came from drips and drops that came from people who had gone into one of the twisted doorways...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 21:31:02
subject: <b>everybody...</b>
body:
...is someone elses reborn. Mat and his memories is just one man being reborn again and again until he was reborn as Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 23:01:38
subject: <b>Overlooking something...</b>
body:
Mat is ta'varen.  Those are usually pretty important people, so wouldn't it make sense that he is reborn?  And the other men are probably people born time and time again... you didn't think he was just reborn once, did you?  Not everyone in this story is reborn, but the ta'varen definitely are, i believe.  They are important people in the world and the really important ones are recycled.  Also, as far as him hating Aes Sedai and wanting to leave the two rivers: it makes perfect sense.  Just because he is someone else reborn doesn't mean he thinks like that person: they are definitely different people that think differently.  Also, the reborn peeps tend to learn from the previous people's mistakes... rand is a good example.  Mat, in essense, lived through the betrayal of aemon, and as a result hates aes sedai now as well as wanting to leave manetheren (or the two rivers) because of the hurt he must feel (even though he probably doesn't quite know why) whenever he is there.  Isn't the whole point of being reborn so that you can learn from and build off of the memories of the previous life, even if you don't really know it's there?<br /><br />Quenden Rylben<br />Gleeman Wannabe<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-28 23:07:48
subject: <b>Mat's TDR Flashback</b>
body:
This pre-Fox memory is pretty crucial in his past lives.<br /><br />The interesting thing is: as he looks at the minor Houses and Towns gathered for the battle they have their own banners.<br /><br />His bannerman is carrying the Red Eagle not his personal banner. And he says &quot;for the honour of the Red Eagle&quot;. No mention of a King or Queen. Why? <br /><br />Well would you shout out &quot;For the honour of the Red Eagle and me&quot;<br /><br />Mat was a King. But as the Trolloc Wars was 300 years long, which King I cannot say.<br /><br />He does say &quot;we must win or die here&quot;. But was this at the beginning of the war when the Trollocs were sweeping all before them or at the end when the Amyrlin betrayed Manetheran????<br />


created: 2002-04-28 23:48:26
subject: <b>In response to some above posts</b>
body:
Everybody in the WoT world is somebody reborn, just not necessarily somebody significant.  Every person's soul is reborn, but only heroes are tied to the Wheel and live in Tel'Aran'Rhiod and come when called by the Horn of Valere, and are spun out as basically the same people just with different names.  Any regular person, say some common blacksmith for example, is someone reborn, and will be reborn after they die, but will not necessarily be a blacksmith (think of Tel'Aran'Rhiod as Valhalla, and only the truly brave can get in).  If Mat or Perrin were heroes of the Horn reborn, the Heroes called at Falme would have recognized them and addressed them as who they were, the way they addressed Rand as Lews Therin.  Mat may very well be Aemon reborn, but Aemon was not a Hero.<br /><br />And since the Wheel occasionally adds new Heroes to the bunch in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, I have no doubt that Mat and Perrin will be added now, along with a few others such as Thom, Juilin, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 06:33:34
subject: <b>Hmmmmm........</b>
body:
The factor that does disprove that he's a collage of many souls is how most of them overlap.<br /><br /><br />I think you will find this disproves your theroy, if they overlap how can he be only one person? Also if he was only one person he surly would have all the memories from that person not many different small memories, mainly of battle, from lots of different people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 09:34:10
subject: <b>blah, read the other posts?</b>
body:
What has been suggested is that Mat is Aemon reborn, he gets a dagger, it erases his memory, he goes to see the foxes, he asks for those holes to be filled, they do, with the memories of other people. So what is being suggested is he is Aemon reborn with the memories of many other men too. <br /><br />I don't think that the heros not saying hi to Mat and Perrin means much. I mean how much time for chatter is there really? Say hi to the Dragon, the most important man ever! and then get to the killing... <br /><br />The guide blatently tells you what Ta'varen are. They are spit out by the pattern when the pattern starts to get to out of wack. Ok, so the seals are weakening and the Dark One is touching the world again. Pattern spits out the Dragon, and a couple other Ta'varen to help him. The Ta'varen must fight to put the pattern back on track. I don't have my guide with me, so I can't quote it exactly, but that's pretty much what it says.<br /><br />And yes, everybody is somebody reborn, it's how WoT world works, it has been stated in the books a few times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 11:04:06
subject: <b>Can't think of a title.</b>
body:
Simple question,if mats memories were filled when he was in the doorway with the memories of the generals then how does that make him reborn from all of them. Mat could very likely be reborn from just Aemon as has been said Mat's memories were filled while he in the doorway. The overlapping memories is the result of all those memories being slammed into his head too fast, the memories have nothing to do with his being Reborn from Aemon. <br />   Another thing, I can't remember but did the heroes even notice that Mat was the one who blew the horn. Him being Aemon reborn would explain alot of things.<br /><br /><br />The shadow has been given a light.<br />


created: 2002-04-29 14:07:13
subject: <b>It is more simple than all this trash</b>
body:
Mat is not Aemon reborn, for the most obvious reason. He has never thought to himself. He never thought, Hey, remember the time I was Aemon. Secondly he was never a warder, because he has thought about the warder concept and at no point did he think to himself, Hey remember that time I was a warder. Granted Jordan has a lot of hidden secrets and he hints at a lot, but not with Mat, Perrin or Rand. You would be hard pressed to find any instance were Mat, Perrin or Rand, from there own PoV, deceive the reader with insinuating comments. One of Mat former lives is of being a general in Manetheren, as well as in many other lands. It right in you face. Mat asked to have &quot;all the whole in my memories filled&quot;. Use your knowledge of English, and see the word MY memories, as in Mat's previous lives. <br />Finally everyone is reborn at some point; hence the idea of having your thread burnt out, as in it ceases to continue on. If you disagree with the idea of everyone being reborn you do not grasp one of the fundamental idea of the RJ series.<br />


created: 2002-04-29 14:33:50
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
I don't know why Mat would have to have memories of Aemon to be Aemon reborn. He could have gotten all of his memories of the other people, but they didn't include Aemons.  Rand is the only one who knows who he is reborn as, because of prophesy, and because of the taint on sadin that broke down the barrier between him and LT. <br /><br />So far there is 0 good evidence in these posts as to why he COULDN'T be Aemon. <br /><br />Most of the arguments as to why he is not are things like, &quot;Mat isn't the lord of Menatherin, Perrin is&quot;, hey if I get reborn, I doubt I will want to try to repeat my last life, I would prob get into an entirely different field. Brings a whole new meaning to the cleche &quot;you only live once&quot; <br /><br />Just because he has all the memories in his head, whether past lives, memories from others, or a combination thereof, does not of that means he can't be Aemon reborn. <br /><br />I don't think the proof is all that great that is, but it's better then the counter arguments.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 15:08:20
subject: <b>heroes reborn in time of need</b>
body:
I like the theory of Mat being Aemon reborn.<br /><br />I also had a theory about heroes being reborn but was shot down in flames for it but I still think it might hold some value.<br /><br />What if the likes of Mat, Perrin, Lan, Nyneave, Egwene, Moiraine and so on (any major players) are heroes reborn in the worlds greatest time of need.<br />Although no-one has really done enough to claim hero status could it not be that the wheel has designs for the world that must come to past at all costs and what better way to have it than an all star cast represented in the last battle.<br /><br /><br />please don't flame give something constructive that I may not have thought about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">plant lover<br />tree hugger<br />man of many talents <br />and father of the world<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 15:24:35
subject: <b>a couple of problems that I have</b>
body:
3) Moiraine states that the battle cry, &quot;The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and it's last king.&quot;  Which to me seems to indicate that everyone would have used this same warcry assuming they were from Manetheren, not just Aemon.<br /><br />6) I always took Siuan to mean that he was both there as himself, being constained and probably not entirely understanding the circumstanes, hence asking for his freedom and then flashing back and giving orders to his men.  <br /><br />7) I assume you're refering to tDR, Awakening where Mat thinks of the past, in which case I agree with what you say.<br /><br />Aemon was bonded to his wife and it's unlikely that he ever knew of the fact that the White Tower betrayed him.  I'm not sure there are any outside of the White Tower who are aware that hte White Tower held back help.  I think Mat's dislike for Aes Sedai is just based on his own experiences with Moiraine and Siuan.<br /><br />Personally, I don't think there is enough evidence to prove either that Mat is or isn't Aemon reborn.<br /><br />As a response to some others, none of Mat's memories directly overlap in time, the one that comes closest is him seeing the same man, but the man had aged greatly between the two sights of him, giving time to have been reborn and grown.  Also the original theory never really mentioned anything about the memories implanted by the Finns to be related to Mat being Aemon.  Since we don't know whether the memories are actually previous lives of Mat's or merely just random memories, they can't really be used to prove or disprove much of anything.<br /><br />And as someone already mentioned, everyone in WoT is someone reborn.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 18:31:09
subject: <b>The Battlefield and King Aemon</b>
body:
It might just be me, but as I recall it:<br /><br />Mat was a Generel on the fiald and he was going in after the King.  To get him out and diffend the rear while they got him to safety.  I might be wrong.. too many anciant battles to keep track of and too few brain cells left to ponder the subject. But, but... It might be worth a go to check that out.  I don't have to books with me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~DarLans


created: 2002-04-29 19:54:57
subject: <b>Lay of the pipe DarkLan.......</b>
body:
as you have lost to many brain cells as evidenced by your post.  <br /><br />I agree with the author.  I believe also that Mat is Aemon Reborn.  Talmanes post as well as Glamorn's ( even though he disagrees) provide some support for the theory.<br /><br />The evidence given to support this theory are happenings before Mat had memories replaced!<br /><br />Would anyone besides King Aemon have the nerve to shout at Aes Sedai the way he did when the healing was taking place.  His wife was Aes Sedai and so Aemon would not be fearful of Aes Sedai as the average person is because of ignorance.<br /><br />When reading Mat's memory of the battle it's obvious he was  Aemon and it was the last desperate attempt to hold of the DO armies.<br /><br />Also in the passage did not the POV ( Aemon) mention something of testing his luck one more time.<br /><br />Most people assume that Rand Channeling the power and the taint present broke down the barrier and let LTT into his head.<br /><br />Like wise Mat was always lucky but seemed to get even luckier after taking the daggar from shadar logoth.  Could the daggar and the taint of Shadar Logath have had the same or simular effect that channeling and the taint had on Rand?<br />Allowing his previous life ( Aemon) to have more influence on Mat.  eg.  increase his luck, memories and the frequency of speaking the old tongue.  Remember right after the healing he walks down to where the warders are training and wallops Galad and Gawyn.  Mat is speaking to Hammar and Hammar says you speak the old tongue.  Mat was unaware at the time that he had been speaking in the old tongue.  Previously he spoke the old tongue only in times of great stress, now he speaks it in casual conversations.<br /><br />I believe as the author of this theory that Mat is indeed Aemon reborn.  Aemon and Manetheren were a thorn in the DO arse 300 yrs ago.  Mat and his army ( Seanchen?) will be the thorn in the arse this time around<br /><br />Great theory Mat!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 23:39:20
subject: <b>Probably Not</b>
body:
I must disagree with this theory for several reasons.<br />1.) The red eagle in Min's viewing was less the symbol of the king of Manetheren than it was a symbol of the country itself. It was probably only an indication of Mat's strong ties to the past.<br />2.) The war cry that Mat yelled was the war cry of an army, not just the king.<br />3.) Mat is not the only one who has some talent with dead languages: in tEotW, Egwene mentions that she can almost understand the Old Tongue, also. Does this mean SHE has been reborn, too?<br />4.) Mat seems to remember events from the lives of many past soldiers, not just one.<br />5.) Mat's dislike of Aes Sedai is not at all uncommon, especially in the Two Rivers. It does not necessarily signify a prejudice that has been keep through the ages.


created: 2002-04-30 08:26:23
subject: <b>i will give you a thumbs up</b>
body:
he probly was the king in a past life but there are a lot of other memorys of which the king has no ties to. I like your theory and it makes a lot of sence. I am currently re-reding EotW and i wonderd what Min's vewing ment about the red eagle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 09:25:46
subject: <b>OMFG does nobody read the other posts!?!</b>
body:
EVERYBODY IN WOT IS SOMEBODY REBORN!!! <br /><br />EVERYBODY IN WOT IS SOMEBODY REBORN!!!<br /><br />this has been said in the books and the guide<br /><br />jebus some thick skulls around here...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 13:18:55
subject: <b>Re: Columbo and Windsor</b>
body:
<br />1. The amount of Manetheren people who would be making last stands against the forces of the Dark One would be huge, considering at one point every general of Manetheren was overwhelmed. Saying it is obvious that Mat was previously Aemon just because he had a last stand is a fallacy of deductive reasoning. A King would never lead a heart guard, because the heart guard guard&#8217;s him/ the queen.<br /><br />1..Aemon would be less likely to talk down to an Aes Sedai, like Mat did when he was being healed, because he was BONDED to one. Notice how ALL warders are respectful towards ALL Aes Sedai, furthermore, even the lowliest White Cloak will talk down to an Aes Sedai, so the fact that one of the people Mat used to be would also talk down to Aes Sedai proves nothing. Many people do not like Aes Sedai, me included.<br /><br />And to WINDSOR, you made some point about how all the counter argument are bad, and that just because Mat doesn't have Aemon memories doesn't mean he wasn't Aemon. Although that might be true (the only reason it wouldn't be is due to the nature of Mat's request: He wanted ALL of the wholes filled in his memory. But this is debatable for several reasons so I will not argue this) if you decide that Mat has none of Aemon memories than you have removed /ALL of the proof for him being Aemon. Think about, all the proof support the theory of Mat/Aemon is based on the idea of his displaying/remembering Aemon's traits/life.<br />


created: 2002-04-30 14:49:39
subject: <b>A little note</b>
body:
I would just like to say that I almost immediatly discredit anyone who says that Mat cant be Aemon reborn<br />because he has memories from sever other men.  It makes sence that Mats memory of the Manetheren <br />battlefield is who he was in a past life.  This make sence because well this is way before he went into<br />the twisty doorframe ter'angreal and made his bargain with the 'finns (sorry cant remember which ones)  <br />So to anyone who thinks of posting &quot;Mat isn't Aemon because he has lots of memories from all over the place&quot;<br />please think twice before you make yourself look really stupid.<br /><br />Lytjan Morillin <br />some dead guy reborn


created: 2002-04-30 15:22:35
subject: <b>I am not being clear, I realize that...</b>
body:
<br />What I am trying to say is, He didn't get the memories of Aemon from the Foxes, those were already there. Most of the evidence for this theory comes from the stuff he did pre-fox visit except for point 7. Perhaps he didn't need to get the memories of Aemon from the foxes, and thus, he doesn't recall them in the same way. <br /><br /><br />If he is Aemon, those memories might be connected to his old blood, kinda like instinct. Talking in the old tongue, shouting ancient battle cries, etc. The other memories, were put in there, and deal mostly with military campaigns, though other stuff too. <br /><br />Here is what was said exactly with the foxes:<br />&#8220;I have no intention of marrying. And I have no intention of dying, either, whether I am supposed to live again or not. I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer!&#8221;<br />&#8220;Done,&#8221; one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.<br /><br />He just says he would want those holes filled, he doesn't say with what, or from whom.<br /><br />The memories that were put in there, he can recall. The Aemon stuff is a past life, he is cut off from this, but can recall it at certain times (unconsciously and in the heat of battle).<br /><br />Regarding point 7 in the original theory the Aes Sedai meat line, I don&#8217;t know what it means, or why Aemon would say it. We don&#8217;t know much about Aemon even if he was married to and bonded to an Aes Sedai. If you look at the evidence in WH however, it looks like Mat is going to do the same thing (marry a channeler, Tuon), and I doubt he will turn a leaf and think the One Power is now the greatest thing since fireworks. <br /><br />I don&#8217;t think the memories he was given by the foxes should even be considered when we are talking whether Mat is Aemon or not.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 15:31:05
subject: <b>whoops</b>
body:
point 7 is not the Aes Sedai meat line, that was just mentioned after the numbered points in the original theory.<br /><br />Point 7 is about commanding the heart guard. I guess what I said earlier could fit here too. He just asked for the memories to be filled, they could have been filled up with memories from the commander of the heart guard. Who was at that the same battle as Aemon. <br /><br />Aemon was there pre-foxes but Mat can't really recall them, they are instinctual.<br /><br />Memories of others added post-foxes and Mat can recall them as if they were his own.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 15:44:22
subject: <b>Glamorn thanks for the help.....</b>
body:
you again have helped Mat Cauthon and I prove our point that Mat is indeed Aemon REBORN.  Hold onto your shorts Glamorn.<br /><br /><br />1. The amount of Manetheren people who would be making last stands against the forces of the Dark One would be huge, considering at one point every general of Manetheren was overwhelmed. Saying it is obvious that Mat was previously Aemon just because he had a last stand is a fallacy of deductive reasoning. A King would never lead a heart guard, because the heart guard guard&#8217;s him/ the queen.<br /><br />First of all we know that King Aemon was present at the last stand.  Heres were you come in Glamorn...  The Heart Guard protects the King/Queen.  You are correct and deserve a prize.  PRIZE = Because we know that the heart guard was present we KNOW THAT KING AEMON WAS PRESENT.  Why not the Queen you ask?  Just in case you don't know the hole story the Queen was not present at the last stand.<br /><br />1..Aemon would be less likely to talk down to an Aes Sedai, like Mat did when he was being healed, because he was BONDED to one. Notice how ALL warders are respectful towards ALL Aes Sedai, furthermore, even the lowliest White Cloak will talk down to an Aes Sedai, so the fact that one of the people Mat used to be would also talk down to Aes Sedai proves nothing. Many people do not like Aes Sedai, me included.<br /><br /><br />First of all Mat did not talk down to Aes Sedai!  He said &quot; I'm a free man,  Aes Sedai.  I am no Aes Sedai meat&quot;  He is not talking down to Aes Sedai.  <br /><br />Also not ALL warders are respectful towards AES Sedai.  Lan on serveral ocassions talks poorly about Aes Sedai in Rand's presence.  And I'm not sure why I'm even responding to this because I don't think he was being disrespectful in the first place.<br /><br />The reason even the lowliest Whitecloak will talk down to Aes Sedai is because they are aware of the Aes Sedai's limitations because of the three oaths taken.  I'm not sure that they are smartalecs anymore.<br /><br />And to WINDSOR, you made some point about how all the counter argument are bad, and that just because Mat doesn't have Aemon memories doesn't mean he wasn't Aemon. Although that might be true (the only reason it wouldn't be is due to the nature of Mat's request: He wanted ALL of the wholes filled in his memory. But this is debatable for several reasons so I will not argue this) if you decide that Mat has none of Aemon memories than you have removed /ALL of the proof for him being Aemon. Think about, all the proof support the theory of Mat/Aemon is based on the idea of his displaying/remembering Aemon's traits/life.<br /><br />First of all he does have Aemon's memories as has been proven here.  The proof that he has Aemon's memories are based on memories and events that happened before his deal with the finns.  So please don't include the Finns as we are talking afout things that happened BEFORE THE DEAL WITH THE FINNS!<br /><br />Thanks for your help in this matter again Glamorn .  If you have any other good reasons why Mat is not Aemon let us know about them and we'll use them as proof that Mat is Aemon.<br /><br />Wheres in the world is Vashti?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 15:57:51
subject: <b>I explained what I meant</b>
body:
Up there COLUMBO ^<br /><br />I must have posted while you were still typing yours out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 16:47:11
subject: <b>You did post...</b>
body:
while I was typing Windsor.  Your comments were not present when I started.<br /><br />1  The last stand.<br />2  Humans out numbered 10 to 1<br />3  Humans cannot take intense heat much longer.<br />4  Must win or die here.<br />5  all the lords and major houses present.<br />6  Heart guard present.<br />7  Red Eagle bannerman also present.<br />8  &quot;  Time to tose the dice &quot;<br />9  POV ( Aemon )  rides into battle with the Heart Guard ( Aemons personal guards)  Also rides into battle with the bannerman carrying the Red Eagle banner (  Bannerman always stay by the King )  we also know that Aemon was present at the last stand and that he died in battle.  Now come on! how much more do you really need.  Come on folks!  If Rand was present at a big battle do you really think that the dragon banner would be with Weirimon or is it safe to say it would be with Rand if he was present.<br /><br />Mat is Aemon Reborn!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 17:19:03
subject: <b>RE: Columbo</b>
body:
I really like the part about the dagger causing the breakdown between Mat and Aemon.  To give a little more to it Mat remembers the final stand of Manetheren after he gets Healed of the dagger.<br /><br />Just one small correction, Mat wasn't actually talking to Hammar, Hammar just overeheard Mat muttering to himself, but doesn't take anything away, Mat does start using the Old Tongue more and I think this explains how he's able to talk to the Finn's.  Through the weakening of the barriers, he learns enough of the Old Tongue to talk to the Finns, without realizing it.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 12:42:55
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
This is my first post, and sorry I'm at school so I don't have my books on me...<br /><br /><br />Mat had wierd memories before he went into the twisted door ter'angreal. In EoTW or TGH, I can't remember because like I said I don't have my books on me. There is a whole page during Mat's delerium, from the dagger, where he is having a memory/dream about being some kind of general. <br /><br />I think the dagger was just a trigger to revive his old memories, of whoever he was reborn from. And EVERYONE was reborn from someone...<br /><br />So I think this theroy is one of the best I heard about Mat's past life. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-01 15:39:34
subject: <b>The memories...</b>
body:
He initially had the memories of Aemon... that's been proven.  The deal with the finns, however, makes perfect sense... he had his holes filled ENTIRELY.  He may be Aemon reborn, but he's also a lot of other people reborn as well.  To fill in all of the holes, he would need to get the memories from ALL of those other men.  <br /><br />Also, in one of his memories where he was a general commanding the heart guard, someone said that the king wouldn't be commanding the heart guard protecting him.  That is absolutely correct.  The problem is, it never says the king during that particular battle is Aemon.  Manetheren had a lot of kings making last stands, as i understand it, and there is no evidence to suggest that that particular memory was even during Aemon's lifetime.  <br /><br />This proves/disproves nothing about the current theory that Matt is Aemon.


created: 2002-05-01 19:47:06
subject: <b>Quen</b>
body:
I cannot waste the time to respond to your comments Quen.  Sorry!  You are misrepresenting the facts and obviously don't know the books very well.  If you would like to be brought up to speed read my comments.  I have a tip for you Quen.  Read the passages in question and then post your comments.  To even suggest that Mat's flashback was not of Manetheren's defeat shows that your comprehension is really poor.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 21:28:42
subject: <b>Whoopdy-freakin-doo...</b>
body:
First of all, who cares if Mat is Aemon reborn, obviously it's not as important as the fact that Rand is Lews Therin.  Personally, I would be surprised if at some point in the story Mat finds out he's Aemon reborn.  I just don't see why RJ would try and emphasize the fact that Mat is someone reborn so much in Book 1 only to make it seem non-existant or not important in later books.  My point is, even if Mat is Aemon reborn, appearently it does mean jack now.<br /><br />P.S.  No, I don't think he is anyone-in-particular reborn.  Just a feeling I have...


created: 2002-05-02 02:08:59
subject: <b>OMFG!!!! I now this was a few posts ago, but really...</b>
body:
But really people...  <br />someone really tried to say that ALL Warders are nice and respectful to ALL Aes Sedei???  Yah I guess, Except Bridgette, Lan, Rand, and Elyes.  Wait a minute that is EVERY WARDER that have been given any real amount book time, or a segment from thier POV.  Think about the Asha 'man that bonded his wife to know she was alright.  Think she was always repectful and subservent to him???  Come on Guys...  Not to get sexist, but if you are married you know that Bond or no bond, title and powers or no title and powers, you would not always be nice and kind and repectful of your wife and her friends.  Arguements happen.  <br /><br />2.  Someone said that the king didn't know that he had been betrayed.  I suppose you did reread the story before you threw in your 2 cents (actual worth .01 cent) the story goes that the king had to hold for help for three days, but after holding against impossible odds for 10 days &quot;...the king knew the bitter taste of betrayal.&quot;  And of course he could hold no more so he destroys the bridges and send the messangers to home to tell people to go.  &gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />3.   Who cares what his wife the Ais Sedei says or thinks, he is the king.  Of course he probibly loved her, and listened to her, but when the (Censored) hit the fan, his word went.  The Trolloc wars seem like the (Censored) hitting the fan.<br /><br />OK one final thing to add...  Who are Tar Valon Aei Sedei ALWAYS wanting to control, esspecially in the trolloc wars.  Kings, Queens and Rulers. We know this.  Do they care about controling common soldiers, Generals, or Captains of the Heart Guard???  No Forsaken and Darkfriends are worried about the control of these &quot;lower&quot; types.  So, if Mat had a flash to a past life and started Screaming in the old toungue when his dagger was removed &quot;I AM A FREE MAN AES SEDEI!!&quot; I am more in tune to believe that he was a king.  Our tar Valon Friends were much, much, much more likely to attempt to control a king than any member of army, or even a lord.   <br /><br />This doesn't prove that Mat is or is not the king reborn, it is just I have been reading some of these posts wishing I had been hitting myslef with a rock since it would have been less painful. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 10:01:52
subject: <b>I know how you feel borderlander</b>
body:
most of the posts here just muddle things up. I still don't think a lot of people understand that EVERYBODY is somebody reborn yet. <br /><br />Let me borrow that rock when your done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 15:03:06
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Two thumbs up.  I was suspecting something like this on my own, and the theory and some of these posts here (esp. from Columbo) confirm that in my mind.  And to answer a couple of the objections:<br /><br />1. &quot;If Mat was Aemon, then why is Perrin drawn back to the TR while Mat wants to leave it forever? Wouldnt it make more sense for their positions to be reversed? &quot;<br /><br />The story of Mat Cauthon is the story of him running away from destiny, but destiny catching him anyway.  Everything he runs the hardest from comes true for him.  He can't stand noblewomen?  Well, he's going to marry a queen.  He doesn't want responsibility?  Well, now he's a bigshot general.  In my eyes, the fact that Mat wanted to get away from the Two Rivers and never come back actually suggests that he DOES have some karmic connection to the place, something he can't escape.<br /><br />2. &quot;The battle in which Mat saw himself leading the forces of Manetheren could have been another battle; it didn't have to be the last stand at Emond's Field.&quot;<br /><br />This is technically true, but you're ignoring the fact that this is a NOVEL, and not just brute facts.  Even stories as long and detailed as the WOT can only give us so much info, and the writer has to decide what's important to tell us and what isn't.  On that basis, I think it's highly likely that the two accounts we get of battles involving ancient Manetheren are accounts of the same battle, given from two different persepctives so that perceptive readers could make the connection.<br /><br />3. &quot;Matt was leading the honor guard, so must have been the guard captain, not the king.&quot;<br /><br />That's a silly one.  The guard goes where the king goes, right?  And if the king charges into battle, the guard follows him into battle.  The king leads the honor guard when he's around; the guard captain follows him along with everyone else.<br /><br />Florian


created: 2002-05-02 15:39:31
subject: <b>Hail King matt......</b>
body:
This is a great theory and might be true, I hope it is.  But perrin looks to be taking the role of bringing back Manetheren. Maybe if matt is the king reborn, he will ease perrins woes and take charge of bringing back Manetheren himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> DaRkNiGhT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother to Shadowkiller <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 17:38:08
subject: <b>Columbo WOW!</b>
body:
I just finished reading that great theory of yours on Fain.  I never gave much thought on Mat being Aemon reborn.  You've sold me 100%.  After reading your comments I have no doubt Mat is Aemon Reborn. Also someone mentioned that Rand was LTT and important but that who Mat was in previous life didn't matter.  How can anyone say Mat is insignificant in this series.  He is part of the big Three of Rand,  Perrin and Mat.  Mat being Aemon reborn is significant if you ask me.  Again great work Columbo!  I can't wait to here from you agian.  Columbo you have a great understanding of the series.  Thanks for sharing with the rest of us. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2002-05-02 23:33:10
subject: <b>Rose of the Sun</b>
body:
So if Mat was Aemon, then who was his wife (can't remember her name).<br /><br />She was an Aes Sedai - the Amrylin was jealous of her powers.<br /><br />A hint: She smiled at him &quot;Thank you Mat&quot;. Looking up at her, he cleared his throat, stood up.........&quot;<br /><br />Walks off singing softly &quot;Jessies been a friend. Yeah I know he's been a good friend of mine..........&quot;<br /><br />Don't flame me too hard  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-05-03 00:52:37
subject: <b>I thought of that same thing Talmanes</b>
body:
when I read EotW a second time. <br /><br />After all, he does have a thing for her. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 01:56:05
subject: <b>44 coments and no one has said...</b>
body:
The reason that he isn't Aemon is because he remembers advising himHe tells Aemon not to go but he says that any chance no matter how small has to be taken. Unless i am remembering his advice to someone else this is the definitive point


created: 2002-05-03 16:56:50
subject: <b>could be the main reincarnation of Mat</b>
body:
We know that Rand is LTT reborn, but he also saw visions through the eyes of his Aiel ancestors, who were not related to LTT at all.<br /><br />Therefore:  Why can't Mat have Aemon's soul, but also a collection of other people's memories bestowed on him by the Eelfin?  Perhaps he doesn't remember being Aemon because Aemon is his main soul... the main person he was reborn from... while all the other memories are just fragments from outside meddling with his mind.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I also think it would be cool if he was Artur Hawkwing (especially because of his destiny with the Seanchan), but I believe he had a memory of fighting Hawkwing in battle.<br /><br />As to Perrin bringing back Manetheren:  The Wheel weaves as the Wheel will.  Perhaps that's his destiny for this lifetime, while Mat/Aemon has a different destiny.  Or maybe we're all predicting something that won't happen... maybe Perrin won't raise Manetheren at all.


created: 2002-05-03 20:36:39
subject: <b>Kael</b>
body:
Where is this qoute of yours from.  If it does exist please let me know page # and book.  I would like to investigate you definitive point.  If you do not respond I will take it to mean you are making this up.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 20:38:48
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Mat and Egwene sitting in a tree K I S ing  Maybe?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 23:32:10
subject: <b>Mat and his memories</b>
body:
More a question really, but how many times would Mat have to have been reborn in the last 2000 years to have all these different memories he got from the foxes? Or are they the memories of other turnings of the wheel as well? (I am guessing on the years part, not bothing to look up when Manetheren fell)<br /><br />I guess what I am driving at is how do we know that the memories the foxes gave him are his past lives, or just the lives of other men?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 23:53:03
subject: <b>you don't have to remember who you were.....</b>
body:
One comment here says that Mat cannot be Aemon reborn because he has never thought about himself as Aemon. Well, that is patently false. When you are reborn you never remember who you were before, Rand being the one exception to this. Birgitte herself explains this to Nynaeve and Elayne. (I don't have the exact quote at hand, so I will paraphrase) She explains that even though she is one of the heros bound to the wheel, she is born, lives and dies WITHOUT ever remembering who she was. It is not until she returns to Tel'aran'rhiod after she dies that she remembers who she was and is. After all, what would we do with a planet full of people who all remembered their past lives? nothing would ever get done, because we would all think we knew everything already, plus the fact their would be multiples claims to every throne owing to all the Kings and Queens ever who would all want to regain their &quot;lost&quot; throne. Now woundn't THAT put us all in the pickle barrel!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 15:25:34
subject: <b>Kael</b>
body:
I too remember Mat giving the advice to the king as his right hand man.  Mat has most of his memories from Manetheren because during the Trolloc wars they were the leading army.  He was never a king he was always a general loyal to a king.  I think Perrin is Aemon reborn.  Egwene is not Aemon's wife however or she would not be so in love with Gwayne.  All of the memories in Mat's head are his own.  None of them over lap in a time sense.  All of the memories he has get mixed up because there are so many memories.


created: 2002-05-04 22:20:31
subject: <b>Past lives and ancestors</b>
body:
Like someone posted, LTT is NOT related to the Aiel, but Rand sees a lot of things from is ancestors in Rhuidean. What if one of Rand's Aiel ancestors was at the service of LTT in the AOL? then could Rand remember a conversation a conversation he had with himself?<br /><br />My point is, you are someone reborn, but you have ancestors either, so Mat's memory was probably fill with is ancestors' memory, the way Rand saw things throught is ancestors eyes in the Ter'Angreal.  He could be a direct descendant of one of Aemon's advisor, and still be Aemon reborn.


created: 2002-05-05 02:28:02
subject: <b>Billthe#$%$#$%</b>
body:
Are you serious?  Are you serious?  I don't think so.  What I think is  your just trying to stir things up here.  I will not get sucked in by your attempts.  Your comments hold no water with me!  Your so far off the mark that I can't help you.  Although  something tells me your just trying to start trouble here with your dumb comments. <br /><br />I will not respond to you.  Stop trying to start something!  If you want to cause trouble go somewhere else!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 17:11:42
subject: <b>Hey Col</b>
body:
This time I am mostly in agreement with you. See, I ain't so bad. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The mere fact that he has undiluted genetic material from the survivors of Manetheren should have no legitimate bearing on his mind, unless we're talking genetic memories here which is a pile of ****. So the stuff in his mind would have to come from the soul, a soul that is reincarnated from some other life.<br /><br />Now Mat's memories from the Finns are implanted and most likely are sourced from the experiences they take as price for their granting of wishes. In them, Mat knows he's a different person. When he spouted the Old Tongue in Eye and the Great Hunt, that appeared to come from his own mind. Given that Perrin, who is also Manetheren blood, doesn't get up to such things, takes away from the Old Blood theory.<br /><br />Therefore we have to conclude that the soul that is now Master Matrim Cauthon was once a resident of Manetheren. Now considering what lines he came up with, that sould had to be very high up, and that survived to the last stand. That narrows it to a few soldiers and Aemon. QED, who cares about soldiers.<br /><br />On the negative side, I read in the comments to one of the theories posted this year that someone else had come up with the same idea and that RJ himself had admitted that it was a red herring. I'll try and find that comment and send you to it.<br /><br />About what Mat screamed in the Old Tongue in Tar Valon. He was slowly being possessed by the hatred of Shadar Logoth. While he shouted with the knowledge of the reincarnated soul, he was shouting currently. I don't think that any soldier of Manetheren would have used those words.<br /><br />Dunno, my 2c.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


