# w_comment

created: 2005-12-01 11:50:00
subject: <b>As others have said</b>
body:
Taim is all but certain of being a DF, if not more. The only thing that would refute this would be if he actually fought the DO`s forces in aMoL.<br /><br />Small correction: RJ has said that Taim is 28 years old, so he cannot have been channeling for 15 years.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 13:27:22
subject: <b>Haven't read knife of dreams.</b>
body:
Wow I didn't realize the KoD had so many Ashaman updates. I thought I had mentioned that I hadn't got to it yet, but apparently I didn't. Sorry guys. That's why I'm rereading the series, so I get the most outta KoD. Thanks for the info tho <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Personality Test Result: Logain<br />WoT Mate Match Result: Egwene<br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon or you will be knelt&quot;<br />Mazrim Taim<br />Dumai's Wells<br />Lord of Chaos</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 14:06:26
subject: <b>little off the way</b>
body:
hey dude ,<br />did u think the last 3 parts were any good like the starting 4 of the darktower.but the ending man it kicked ass stephen king proved why he is so amazing with the ending dont u think so?<br /><br />AND THE GUNSLINGER FOLLOWED.


created: 2005-12-01 14:37:30
subject: <b>listen</b>
body:
to be honest, anyone has a good reason to dislike rand because he sucks!<br />but if you think about it, opposing rand in terms of wanting to kill him kind of does make you a darkfriend, even if you are not sworn to the dark, becaues you are just doing what the dark one wants.  semantics.


created: 2005-12-01 15:24:38
subject: <b>giving Taim too much benefit of the doubt!</b>
body:
I think it's more likely that Taim started out as just disgruntled, and this may be what led him to be a darkfriend.  There is a wide gulf between disgruntled and trying to kill someone.  To me, there is no way Taim wasn't a darkfriend by CoT at the latest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Do androids dream of electric Grolm?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 15:28:23
subject: <b>definately a DF</b>
body:
Even before KoD I thought the case was pretty strong.  Your argument actually proves it for me.  Taim wanted to go into Camelyn and just murder a bunch of people simply because they would not pay hommage to Rand.   Come on, how much darker do you get?  Yes, different AS later did betray and capture Rand, but Taim was offering to kill a bunch of people without any evidence that they had/or were going to do any wrong.  Of course men channeling murdering AS in a public setting would have sewn more than a little bit of chaos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 16:52:03
subject: <b>?????</b>
body:
Nice thoery, but I have to disagree. I don't think it's a conicidence that Taim sent a couple darkfriends to kill Rand. Besides he has an air of darkness around him. He just seems to really evil and dark not just to Rand.                                                                                                                        <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 17:19:17
subject: <b>Re: definately a DF</b>
body:
bme,<br /><br />The idea of Taim wanting to kill Aes Sedai for no real reason is understandable. To him there is a reason. Aes Sedai captured him when he was a False Dragon. I doubt there treatment of him was very generous. It is possible that he hates all Aes Sedai simply for this reason.<br /><br />It still does not prove that someone is a darkfriend. Being evil and committing acts of violence does not make someone a darkfriend. If your logic in this case were followed, you would awful have to assume that characters like Byar, Eamon Valda, Masema, and many of the Shaido were all darkfriends. Taim could just be a bad guy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Personality Test Result: Logain<br />WoT Mate Match Result: Egwene<br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon or you will be knelt&quot;<br />Mazrim Taim<br />Dumai's Wells<br />Lord of Chaos</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 19:28:23
subject: <b>Taim was trying to sow enmity between Rand &amp; the Aes Sedai</b>
body:
He kept harping on the Aes Sedai, and was probably behind the stabbing of Demira.  The dark-eyed Aiel is a sure clue, and the sisters deduced that they were intended to know about the attempt.  However, it was not a warning from Rand or his followers as they thought, it was intended to turn them against Rand, and maybe cause them to provoke him.<br />There was also the extremely clumsy attempt by his pet Asha'man using Egan Paedros, in tPoD.  They killed him before he could talk, and &quot;found&quot; a bag of Tar Valon coins on his person. Immediately they lept to the conclusion that the Aes Sedai paid him to assassinate Rand.  That was plainly another attempt to set Rand against the Aes Sedai.  This has been Taim's M.O. from the first day he arrived.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 19:44:37
subject: <b>Sorry, I disagree</b>
body:
Sometimes something is  obvious simply because it is meant to be obvious. Don't forget, we are seeing Taim from the outside, whereas the characters in Randland don't have our knowledge. Rand's (LTT's) constant demanding to kill him is something HE doesn't understand, but WE do. <br />BTW, just to be totally random, can ogier be Darkfriends?


created: 2005-12-01 19:54:14
subject: <b>He's a DF...</b>
body:
I'm glad you mentioned the stabbing of Demira, Cannoli, as it saves me the trouble of looking it up to find the name of that Aes Sedai.<br /><br />I've always thought that Taim stopping the Grey Man from killing Rand in LOC was highly suspicious for a number of reasons, not all of them relevant to this discussion.  However, Taim manages to see a Grey Man who has evaded the notice of any number of other people, and Taim seems to notice it immediately.  I always thought Taim himself was responsible for sending the Grey Man, as the Forsaken have been ordered not to kill Rand except in self-defense by this point.  Of course, Taim could also be working for whoever did send the Grey Man, but I find it highly unlikely that he would have noticed the Grey Man so quickly if he wasn't expecting it.<br /><br />The definitive evidence was given in WH, I think, with the DF asha'man being ordered to kill Rand.  This has been further set in concrete by the last chapter of KOD, as has been stated here a few times already - there's a strong implication that Taim is connected to Moridin in some way.  Looking forward to seeing how that pans out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-02 11:54:13
subject: <b>Agree but disagree</b>
body:
Hey I like your theory. But as you have noticed, the majority of WOT cats do not agree with you.  I also do not agree since KOD.  <br />I agree with your points, I also agree that Taim was NOT a DF when his is first introduced into the story.  I agree with LogainReborn, that Taim has made a choice to switch to the dark side because of jealousy, envy &amp; pride.  Just like Demodred &amp; Sammuel.  <br />I would even suggest that Taim was still on the side of the light up to and a little after Dumi Wells.<br />


created: 2005-12-02 13:14:20
subject: <b>Why Not?</b>
body:
I have seen more ridiculous theories gain almost universal agreement, and in reality this thoery isn't much of a stretch. Taim likely is a drakfriend but then again maybe he's just a monumental prick. The author has a very good point Taim has reason to not like Rand that are completely unrelated to the shadow.


created: 2005-12-02 22:48:29
subject: <b>I'm not sure about Taim and the Gray Man...</b>
body:
I don't really know howto take that scene.  His rather lame reason for coming in the nick of time and his killing the Gray Man so conveniently suggest he might have been involved, and it was ploy to gain Rand's trust, but there is that comment that he &quot;would give a great deal&quot; to know for sure.  Rand thinks it has the ring of truth.  IMO, this always signaled to me that he really wanted to know who was going against orders or what was going on among the (other? ) Forsaken, but it could also mean he really is clueless.  Of course, Rand could be wrong about the sincerity of that comment, but that just doesn't jibe with the way Jordan does things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-03 07:10:51
subject: <b>Cannoli,</b>
body:
I'm sorry to go a bit OT with this, but I just wanted to explain a bit more about what I think happened with the Grey Man.<br /><br />I'd place myself in the Moridin = Taim camp, so if that offends, tune out now.  This scene is vital to the formation of my opinion in that regard, but I'm not going into detail about that here.  If Taim is Moridin, his comment about wanting to know who sent the GM makes enormous sense - although I tend to prefer the idea he, Taimidin, sent the GM himself.  It also explains how he saw the GM so quickly, which I've always had trouble accepting at face value. <br /><br />Of course, we don't know exactly when the 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' order went out, or how long that GM might have been travelling before it got to Rand.  Maybe it was despatched prior to the order being given, if it wasn't sent by Taimidin.<br /><br />If Taim isn't Moridin, this whole sequence still stands out.  The flows Rand used to bind the GM should have been <i>more</i> visible to Taim than the GM itself.  He must have known Rand had it captured, but he still kills it.  Seeing it immediately is highly unusual, killing it when Rand has it safely wrapped up is even more suspicious.  <br /><br />Then, when you re-read the passage and realise Rand never sensed the gateway Taim used...well, that's a whole other discussion :p<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-03 07:25:56
subject: <b>Possibility of him turning over?</b>
body:
I think that this entire area has been so hard for ur readers to figure out simply because it has been in flux throughout the series.<br />I believe taim was actually not a DF at the start of the series but somewhere between now and them he's turned over.<br />This would be in accordance with the last war of the shadow where Lews Therins allies also ended up switching sides AND it would also result in the replacment of the Forsaken we have seen to be balefired/unresurectable by the Dark1.<br />So look out for some more of rands 'allies'/ turnin over to the dark!!!


created: 2005-12-03 11:45:38
subject: <b>you've forgotten</b>
body:
If someone else mentioned this and I missed it sorry, but...'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' is what Taim says it is, an old saying. IIRC, it is the last line of a chant used on a feast day when the 'Lord of Chaos' must be obeyed, no matter how ridiculous his orders. The DO takes this and makes a joke of it, I alsom seem to remember that the saying comes from a previous age, so perhaps Taim would have to hear it from a Forsaken, but his other past age views also could side with this- his 'so-called' aiel comment for one.<br /><br />but Just to confuse you all I still think Taim is Darkfriend, or possibly a Forsaken in disguise, or a proxy.<br /><br />ok said my bit! <br /><br />A complementary spanner in the works for you argueing Taim HAS to be on the DO's side


created: 2005-12-03 19:41:02
subject: <b>An old saying?</b>
body:
Even Pevara thinks to herself that she's never heard this saying.  I cannot recall any reference to a festival such as you describe - so far as I know, 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' has been uttered only by the Forsaken and their servants up to now.<br /><br />Any chance of a quote to support what you've said about the 'old saying'?  The second-last line of KOD reads : <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Pevara had never heard any saying like that.<br /></b></font><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-03 21:04:21
subject: <b>Kinda...</b>
body:
Its the small paragraph on LoC right before the generic world map,<br /><br />I think It covers my major points, It is an old saying, so he COULD have picked it up with his other old stlye opinions. Or he could have been told it by a Forsaken. Just saying he doesn't HAVE to be Darkfriend. Its just more likely that he is (plus it helps with visions fortellings etc if Logain has a reason to attack Taim and his minions)


created: 2005-12-03 21:21:13
subject: <b>That'd be from the Fourth Age...</b>
body:
So maybe it's a common saying in the future from the current novels, which are set in the Third Age.  It certainly doesn't seem to be a common saying in the current books.<br /><br />Many of those opening and finishing quotes in the books are from the Fourth Age, so you have to be careful using them to support an argument such as this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-04 06:11:17
subject: <b>umm...</b>
body:
i don't have a clear memory, but didn't dome of the black ajah go thru the trouble of freeing him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-04 06:57:01
subject: <b>That was never proven</b>
body:
We know the Black Ajah take an Oath not to divulge any info about the BA.  The info about Taim being set free came from the Black sister who hadn't been stilled, ie. she couldn't possibly have been telling the truth about this, it was a diversion.<br /><br />Now, that just means that if there was such a plot, she didn't know about it.  When Suian first hears that Taim has escaped, she assumes it was his followers who had set him free - get enough people in enough numbers, or just a few stealthy people with bows and arrows, and I guess it doesn't matter how many sisters were guarding him - I think only two were killed in the escape, though, IIRC.<br /><br />The problem with the followers freeing him is that, by the time he reaches Caemlyn, he's alone.  What happened to these fanatical followers of his?  Anyway, whilst it might be likely that the Shadow set him free, it remains to be proven.  It <i>might</i> have been his followers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-04 18:42:44
subject: <b>fourth age</b>
body:
given the fact that time works in a cycle, it could also be a fourth age in the cycle b4 the one were reading about, which would make it really REALLY old, but it is possible given the nature of time in the series.


created: 2005-12-04 19:13:14
subject: <b>That's a big stretch</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.  Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.<br /></b></font><br /><br />Note: even myths are <i>long forgotten</i> when the Age that birthed them comes around again.<br /><br />The likelihood of this saying being remembered from the previous Fourth Age is so remote, it's ridiculous.  <br /><br />Although we only have one character thinking to themselves that she'd never heard such a saying, it's absence of use anywhere else in the books except from the Forsaken speaks volumes.  I mean, the saying 'On the heights, the paths are paved with daggers' is mentioned in TSR (I think - might be TGH).  It's an old Seanchan saying, RJ doesn't just invent it out of thin air for bk 8.  <br /><br />IIRC there's 7 spokes on the Wheel, 7 ages to each rotation.  The information our charcters have about the Age before the Age of Legends is cryptic at best.  And there isn't much of it.  The idea that a saying might have survived 8 Ages... sorry, I really don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-06 09:01:10
subject: <b>baphomet23</b>
body:
I wasn't arguing that Taim is a good guy and really did show up by coincidence.  I only mentioned the possibility to pre-emptively dismiss it.  IMO, it was obvious that he whacked the Gray Man to keep him from talking, and he didn't really show up for the reasons he gave.  The Moridin issue is a whole other matter, about which I have no opinion at this time.  But the Gray Man sequence clearly is a point for the pro-Shadow argument about Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-06 11:45:58
subject: <b>Gray man talking? Doubt it</b>
body:
Is it possible for a Gray Man to disclose information that it's master wants to be secret?  I would imagine that this sort of circumstance would be covered by the process of producing Gray Men. It seems like a pretty obvious weakness which would be dealt with as a matter of course. I suppose Aginor or whoever created them may have though that information disclosure would never be an issue.  After all, in most cases it probably does not matter to the target which Forsaken sent a Gray Man and I doubt they would have such information if the sender did not want them to.  Long story short, I doubt that a Gray Man would have any useful information and I doubt it could be extracted even if it was there.  Taim may have had an ulterior motive for killing the Gray Man, but it was not to prevent it from telling any secrets.  Most likely he just wanted to enhance his credibility, whether the whole encounter was planned or he was just being opportunistic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-06 21:54:54
subject: <b>Whether the GM will talk or not doesn't matter...</b>
body:
The question is <i>why</i> Taim killed it.  Keeping on-topic this time, I consider this good evidence that Taim was, at the very least, a DF from the start.  There seems, to me, no other good reason for him to have killed a threat already neutralised by Rand.<br /><br />Taim walks into the room and kills the GM instantly.  How he saw it so quickly is a bit of a mystery if he's a good guy at this point.  As stated previously, the weaves of the OP Rand has used to bind the thing should be more obvious to Taim than the GM itself, so then we need to consider <i>why</i> he killed it if he was a good guy.  On both these counts, I think we have reason to suspect that Taim's a DF already.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-07 09:14:43
subject: <b>one leads to the other</b>
body:
I think disgruntled and therefore a Darkfriend would be much more likely the case.  It's entirely possible that Taim wasn't a darkfriend when he first proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn, and even when he first came to meet Rand.  But because of all that has transpired since then, coupled with his feeling of loss and resentment over not being the Dragon Reborn, he has turned to the shadow. This certainly wouldn't be the first time something like this happened.  Demandred turned to the shadow because he resented LTT's position.   Sammael was jealous of LTT, and thus turned to the shadow. Taim, well, Taim certainly had his reasons to resent Rand, who didn't exactly go out of his way to make the guy happy, and who had already &quot;stolen&quot; the mantle of Dragon Reborn, the most important person in the pattern, from him.  Sounds like he would have been ripe for recruitment by the shadow.


created: 2005-12-09 17:11:09
subject: <b>he's certainly a bad, bad man...</b>
body:
Even if Taim isn't a DF, he's one bad MF.  At the end of KoD, he and his cronies were even doing the &quot;BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA&quot; thing.  Not to mention leaving one of his severly injured flunkies just out of meanness.<br /><br />We've not seen Taim talking to any Forsaken or Myrddraal, so I suppose the evidence is not conclusive, but he's at least a Fellow Traveller.


created: 2006-01-03 12:17:05
subject: <b>His students</b>
body:
Ok, how come he only chooses certain students to be in his &quot;faction&quot;. Here's a crazy idea what if all the guys in the faction are darkfriends. It is possible because he raises people to dragons while leaving others who are worthy to be raised as what ever they are. In addition he raised Dashava to a dragon when he was one of the forsaken. I don't really think this was a concidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-27 07:40:54
subject: <b>How Taim saw the Grey Man</b>
body:
I have another thought on how Taim may have seen the Grey Man so easily when their very nature makes them near-impossible to spot. Is it not possible that there's a Talent (old and long-forgotten or new) allowing someone to see Grey Men normally? If you can see Ta'veren why not Grey Men?


created: 2007-03-08 09:34:35
subject: <b>Nuh-uh</b>
body:
Remember at the end of KoD, Taim says to the Red Ajah to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; I think that this obviosly means that he is a darkfriend&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-The Force is like duct tape, it has a Dark side and a Light side and it holds the universe together.<br />-Come to the Dark Side, you'll get matching jackets!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-09 23:57:50
subject: <b>He may or may not be...</b>
body:
Just because he said&quot;let the lord of chaos rule.&quot; doesn't mean he is a DF, it mean he could bery well be one, but on the other hand, if he turns out not to be one, there is nothing wrong with that.


created: 2009-03-02 07:50:03
subject: <b>Taim originally was not DF nor Forsaken</b>
body:
I should admit that at first I was reading with interest all theories that make out Taim to be Forsaken or a Dark Friend at least. And did even agree with some of the authors <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But all those theories miss one fact of great importance: the gift Taim present to Rand on their first meeting. It is not less but a .... SEAL!!! Could anybody imagine that a DF will give such a present in the hand of the Dragon, the Champion of the Light?! Do you remember also the fear on the Taim's face when Rand lifted the SEAL over his head, obviously intending to broke it? Will a DF be rightened from the releasing of his master?<br /><br />Another important note: The Dragons painted on Taim's sleeves. An imitation of the original on Rand's hands. Will a Forsaken try to pretend to copy somebody he hates deep and he excels by knowledge and wisdom (according to himself)?<br /><br />Maybe  LogainReborn is right and Taim has made a choice to switch to the dark side because of jealousy, envy &amp; pride. Just like Demodred &amp; Sammuel. Indeed it is very possible to be that way. But Taim the false Dragon, Taim the founder of the BT was not a Dark Friend ... yet.


created: 2009-07-30 12:44:35
subject: <b>Taim hears a Real voice</b>
body:
Just finished my re-read; Seems clear enough to me that like Rand, Taim has a voice in his head.  Not only that, but unlike Rand (so far), the voice has gradually taken over.<br /><br />The voice might be Be'lal, or maybe just some other ancient Dreadlord.<br /><br />I can see the evidence for Taim being Moridin, but IMO Moridin is just too much of a lone ranger/dictator to give lessons to Ashaman.  And he would certainly not be saying the Lord of Chaos line, since those orders came via Demandred and represent a possible undermining of his own authority.  I also have strong suspicions that Moridin was stilled back in TDR, which is why he uses the TP exclusively now.


created: 2005-12-08 10:30:16
subject: <b>It's All Happened Before</b>
body:
I think that this theory may be correct. One of the standing motifs of the series has been the cyclical nature of the turning of the WoT; everything that is happening now has already happened before and will happen again. So, there have been many times in the past - and many more to come in the future - where the Bore is formed and patched.The constant is the Thinness. And as a constant present from the moment of creation, it has no temporal antecedent cause.


created: 2005-12-08 13:43:59
subject: <b>There is an entity poking from the other side</b>
body:
I liked your theory. However, I could see another solution for the problem:<br />The Creator made the world and imprisioned the DO in it. The story so far gives the strong impression, that the DO wants to leave that prison. Let's assume Fel was right and the Creator made an intact prison, while making the world, which seems a sensible thing to do for the Creator. Then, also at the beginning of the Creation the DO might have started his attempts to break out. The thinness in the pattern might be a result of the DO's break-out efforts rather than the relict of human activities - We have seen so far, that the DO can destroy the seals and stop channeling around him, we also have seen that he can interfere with reality, thus I think he should be able to cause a thinness in the pattern.<br />The Creator has made time in the WOT world cyclic. However, a cyclic time inside the creation, doesn't nessecarily mean that time is cyclic for the Creator and the DO, who are both outside the world. <br />My tentative explanation for the thinness problem is now: that the DO keeps eternally digging and by having the time in WOT-world running cyclic the Creator ensures that the prison walls regenerate themselves. (Each time the Wheel passes its starting position the prison walls are good as new, which must be endlessly frustrating for the imprisioned DO.) From this point of view, the thinness in the pattern could be considered something that comes from outside as the result of the DO activity, who lives in another time-frame, and is basically a 'new' thinness each time the Wheel turns and not something, that would be the result of actions inside the creation carrying over from previous ages.


created: 2005-12-08 17:42:18
subject: <b>Fair enough..</b>
body:
..but seriously, what's you point? Isn't this kind of intuitive? I would wager that most of the readers would have had this thought as they have read the series. Nothing can be PROVEN...yet... but it is a logical conclusion that most of us would have come to.<br /><br />I'm not flaming you; indeed, I have voted agreement. But I would also vote agree to the question, does the earth circle the sun. Sorry, but this isn't something original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-08 17:50:27
subject: <b>What series?</b>
body:
I am just curious what other series of books you were reading? Sounds like he Black Tower to me. And ignore the post about it being unimaginative. I think this is a key piece to the final puzzle.


created: 2005-12-08 19:28:05
subject: <b>comments</b>
body:
To arilind:<br /><br />Your idea about the Dark One interfering with the Pattern from outside was something I considered for a while. It certainly makes sense that, if he couldn't break free himself, he would try to make himself &quot;felt&quot; to humans, so they would become curious and try to unknowingly free him. But I'm not sure if the Creator intended that to happen, or maybe was unable to <i>prevent</i> it from happening. The question is, was that thinness made by humans or not? My idea is that it was--maybe by Rand himself, the ultimate irony--and somehow that created a paradox that loops back to the creation of the Bore in the previous Age, where they found a thinness which is part of that paradox. I think I got that right--this stuff makes my head hurt.<br /><br />To MonkeyMan:<br /><br />The novel I was referring to is <i>The Anubis Gates</i> by Tim Powers. In the novel a man named Brendan Doyle is studying a poet named Willam Ashbless, and knows a lot about his life. After getting mixed up in some pretty weird stuff he goes back in time. He then realizes that he must have actually <i>been</i> Ashbless himself. Those paradoxical loops I was talking about in the theory are scattered throughout the novel. At one point it becomes obvious that no one ever wrote Ashbless' poetry. Ashbless is mentioned in Power's other novels, and he even wrote some of the fictional poetry and quotes from it as if he were real. Powers and the writer James Blaylock first invented him when they were at Cal State, as a joke, I believe.<br />


created: 2005-12-08 19:47:27
subject: <b>very interesting</b>
body:
In the end, I think it may well boil down to who's initially responsible for the thinness - The DO himself a la arilind's idea, or Rand in some logical-defying, White Ajah incinerating kind of way, a la your theory.  <br /><br />I agree that it seems bizarre that the Creator would create a world WITH a thinness as some kind of test, seeing as he never intervenes and rarely ever communicates with any members of his creation.  Thus, how could they have had any idea of the horrific consequences of drilling, or be held responsible (in that, 'everyone' in Randland seems to be under the impression that the Creator has said, &quot;people messed up my perfect world, let THEM fix it.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />? <br /><br />On the other hand, SHOULD Mierin/Lanfear have indeed known better?  Was it possible she had some inkling of what she was doing beforehand (i.e., sensing the power emanations were bad stuff)?<br /><br />On the third hand, if it's due to the DO's actions, surely the Creator caught on to his fiendish scheme at some point, and could have fixed matters before they got out of hand?  Perhaps not.<br /><br />Or, it's all &quot;logical defying-ness&quot;.  <br /><br />Anyway, it has just occurred to me that if the Dragon himself is somehow responsible for creating the thinness, you might say the Creator has a really bad case of...<br />MALE PATTERN BALDNESS.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-09 02:08:33
subject: <b>To Paetram</b>
body:
&quot;Powers and the writer James Blaylock first invented him when they were at Cal State, as a joke, I believe.&quot;<br /><br />Which Cal State? There's quite a few of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-09 08:00:43
subject: <b>To bobsledai:</b>
body:
According to wikipedia it was Fullerton. Another bit of trivia is that Powers knew Philip K. Dick and was the basis of one of his characters. The novel I mentioned won the Philip K. Dick Memorial Award.<br />


created: 2005-12-09 09:29:25
subject: <b>Reason for Thinness</b>
body:
What if the Dark One was imprisoned by the Creator, and the Creator created the World to be the DO's wardens.  The thinness could be a result of the DO tearing away at the bore and/or a purposeful creation of the Creator.  If we think of the Creator designing the world as a forest for example, the DO is the fire that burns down overgrowth, but allows some things to live.  In the Age of Legends things were great and wonderful with no war or chaos, generally this is a good thing, but civilizations eventually stagnate like this, so as a part of a self perpetuating system, the DO is allowed to break out once in awhile, cause some chaos, weed out the less useful elements of the world, and grow stronger.


created: 2005-12-09 10:33:54
subject: <b>To neji:</b>
body:
I agree that without the Dark One there would be imbalance in the Wheel, and he must exert influence on the Pattern to correct it. Since the Wheel turns infinitely, there must be a good chance that strange, unlikely things occur from time to time. If the Prison was made strong enough to hold the Dark One, then maybe as a means of correction a paradox has to occur to free him a little, something that in itself is illogical and has no original cause, but the paradox also has its own internal mechanism for sealing him up again, or more accurately preventing the drilling from occurring. Since the paradox loops forever there must be something to keep it going. The crux of my theory is that the Bore is at the heart of a causal loop (maybe we'll witness what created it in A Memory of Light), and it requires something outside that loop, not affected by the internal cause and effect, to break out of it. That person may be Padan Fain (who is probably among those strange, unlikely things I mentioned).<br />


created: 2005-12-11 11:36:42
subject: <b>neji</b>
body:
You said that the world was created to be the wardens of the DO. Yeah, they'd ward against the DO, but ward what? It couldn't be the Creator, cause he's proven that he's strong enough to imprison the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-11 16:30:44
subject: <b>another take</b>
body:
I'd like to point out that just because people believe that the Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the moment of creation does not necessaily make it true.  I think that perhaps the Creator and the Dark One are identical in terms of raw &quot;power&quot; and ability. This jibes with the idea of balance in the universe, a concept which pops up frequently in the series.  However, they two entities do not have identical strengths and weaknesses.  For example, it seems like the Dark One is capable of directly affecting the world, while the Creator cannot, or does not.  Instead, his power and ability is reflected in the human race and the things they do.  I'm not sure the prison could even be completely whole despite what our chracters believe because that would end a &quot;battle&quot; between the Dark One and the Creator which cannot end because they are completely equal.  The prison created by mankind with the tools put in place by the Creator could never be perfectly whole because if it was, balance would be lost.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-12 16:05:29
subject: <b>But why was the DO imprisoned at all?</b>
body:
Perhaps we're missing the key question.  I like the idea that the Creator and the DO are balanced but different forces.  But why are they (seemingly) opposite?  What made the DO &quot;Dark&quot; and caused his imprisonment?<br /><br />I posit that the DO was poking at the pattern to begin with, and caused the thinness.  He gets tossed into prison, somewhere outside the pattern, et voila.  He's got motive and means to get out.  He influences the pattern directly via human twistings (did Meira/Lanfear and company know they were doing bad things or did curiosity, perhaps caused by a 3rd-party DO, kill the cat?) or indirectly via bubbles of evil.  Now there's a thin spot.  The prime thin spot.  From here, let the wheel turn and weave.  Bore is drilled, bore is sealed, bore weakens.  <br /><br />Another key question is will the DO ever fully escape?  If the TG has to be fought on the slopes of SG where the prison is weakest, doesn't that suggest that the DO isn't fully free?  Let's assume he gets totally free.  When he's re-imprisoned, his only crime will have been trying to escape!  I believe he won't fully become free and it'll only be another patch to put on, or at best something that seals but doesn't fully strengthen the original &quot;thinness&quot;.  I like that theory above.  <br /><br />My brain hurts. *pop!*


created: 2006-01-04 16:12:49
subject: <b>DO = Creator</b>
body:
What if the DO is in fact the Creator, who created the world for his own enjoyment.  When his creations became too clever and power hungry themselves they then found a way to seal him away.  Thus we see no influence from the Creator.  Even the ancient aes sedai symbol is the light and the dark as two parts of a whole.  But mortals are imperfect and the DO managed to keep a foot in the door (the thinness) in future hopes of escape.  With this reasoning even if the DO wins TG all is not lost for the WoT.  Eventually the dark friends, or others allowed to live to serve them, will grow tired of the DO dominion and seek a way to topple him.<br /><br />Of course it could just be that the DO is just intangible evil that has been locked away and a thinness in the &quot;prison&quot; allows whoever is neerest with the most ambition to take and use that power, so the DO affecting events isn't even an immortal god or demon, but a mortal who just thinks he/she is.<br /><br />In the first scenario the thinness wouldn't have dated from the begining of time/creation because there was not yet a prison.  In the second the thinness would have to have been a pre-existing condition.


created: 2006-08-20 21:41:55
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
This is a confusing post, but what about the Age Of Legends? If time goes in a circle should'nt the AOL come every time the bore is  sealed? Or was it just a lucky age where everyone was smart and stuff? but that wouldn't be going in a circle if it changes would it? i dont know, but should't the age we are in now but another age of legends? that would be circular? hmmmm...........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You laugh cause I'm different, I laugh because your all the same. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-16 17:13:47
subject: <b>Just an addition.</b>
body:
Elaida and the other AS can believe that the men have chosen to forsake the Light because there is no way to distinguish between a sparker and a learner.<br /><br />False Dragons and Asha'man in particular did chose to be channelers either by presuming the place of the Dragon or simply going to the Black Tower.  I doubt Elaida would have called Owen an unbeliever because he was captured without publicity or struggle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-16 18:43:24
subject: <b>I agree - very nice!</b>
body:
I also agree with Onarishma that Elaida wouldn't consider men who tried not to channel (like Owyn) Unbelievers.  Only those who &quot;embraced&quot; their ability would she consider unbelievers.  That would include not only Logain and Taim, but also any of the men who went to the Black Tower to learn.<br /><br />But, I don't think being a sparker or learner has anything to do with Elaida's definition of Unbeliever.  Prior to the formation of the BT, there were likely only a handful of learners identified over the past 3000 years (I think Taim mentioned finding one man who could learn).  All those the AS captured over that time almost had to be sparkers.<br /><br />Even with the BT now, I don't think Elaida would distinguish between sparkers and learners, only between those who embraced their ability and those who tried to deny it.<br /><br />In theory Elaida should not consider any man who went to the BT AFTER saidin was cleaned an Unbeliever.  But, I don't see Elaida making that distinction - she's too much of an extremist to ever accept that saidin is clean, I think, no matter what she's told.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-16 20:02:49
subject: <b>Sounds familiar...</b>
body:
I'd believe the Children of the Light hold the same view towards all channelers, regardless of sex, no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-16 22:06:12
subject: <b>Children of the Light are more justified</b>
body:
At least they have ignorance to back them up, and undoubtedly persecution at the White Tower's hands back in their early days.  Aes Sedai of all people should know better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-16 23:00:33
subject: <b>Agree with Cannoli...</b>
body:
The AS should know especthat people born with the spark just channel, whether they want it or not. Men who claim to be the DR falsely are wrong and deserve punishment, but I never understood the need to have a formal trial for a channeler before he is stilled. Why add insult to the injury?


created: 2005-12-18 02:46:05
subject: <b>Possibly</b>
body:
I think she called him an unbeliever because that is what he was. he believed he was the Dragon Reborn, he did not want to believe he was not, as did Taim.<br />Logain is now over this, obviously, but I am a firm believer that Taim in Moridin anyway.


created: 2005-12-19 00:17:47
subject: <b>And this is <i>soo</i> akin to what Tuon believes</b>
body:
'I am not an unbeliever; I am not an amoral animal with no control of my baser passions.  I am a sentient being schooled in &quot;civilzed&quot; moralities.  I will not lie, cheat, steal, murder - or the Creator forbid - channel...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-19 18:39:33
subject: <b>I think may have to do something</b>
body:
with the fact that Logain is a false dragon and that Elaidia had fortelling concerning House Trakland<br /><br />She wouldnt want Elayne anywhere near the Dragon false or not.<br /><br />Im not sure how the Reds were ever supposed to recognize the true DR if they gentle all the men they find.<br /><br />I think the issue of Logain being a False Dragon amped up Elaidias concern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-17 16:38:01
subject: <b>A thought</b>
body:
If Mat has to lose an eye to save Moiraine It would also fufill the give up half the light of the world to save the world bit. Which means Moiraine is necessary for rand to win the last battle and save the world, which might mean that she will teach him laughter and tears and oohhh!!!!! my head hurts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-17 19:13:32
subject: <b>Blood and Iron</b>
body:
I don't think that blood is &quot;iron&quot; in that case. Mat went into doorframs with full set of blades in his clothes and it didn't matter.


created: 2005-12-17 20:59:08
subject: <b>Mat had to give up his daggers</b>
body:
He couldn't have gone into the doorframe with daggers, because the Aiel made him give them up before leaving. Don't know about in Tear though.


created: 2005-12-17 21:09:24
subject: <b>I like it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
It's the first description of iron that wouldn't have to be smuggled past the 'Finns. I think it's great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-17 21:29:53
subject: <b>One problem...</b>
body:
I've always understood that Perrin's Wolf Dream where that nobleman gets his skin forcible removed was referring to the Finnish. ( I like to call them that. No offense meant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) If that were so, there would be an obvious problem - Perrin was veritably <i>fountained</i> in blood.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-17 23:27:15
subject: <b>maybe iron to *finn is like arsenic to humans</b>
body:
I haven't thought about the iron thing in a while. It seems to me that it's not the mere presence of the element that the *finn are worried about, as it is alloyed in weapons, or mixed into organic compounds in the body, mostly concentrated in the blood, but elsewhere as well.<br /><br />Thinking about what the *finn are worried about in that regard, it occurred to me that the metal is likely a strong poison, as certain metals/metaloids such as arsenic are poison to humans, and can even travel through unbroken skin. But maybe iron is even more so to them, but only if it is concentrated. Iron-rich organic compounds might not be concentrated enough to have an effect in that way, since they seem to tolerate the presence of humans, and even hold them captive.<br /><br />The iron really gives me the impression of an echo of some legend or folktale where some creature always has a strange weakness, the werewolf and the silver bullet, or such as in Baum's Oz books.<br /><br />As for what Mat could be carrying that contains concentrated iron, maybe his ring, or, maybe more likely, he will have something made of pure iron since he will undoubtedly prepare in however way he can. He will also be needing bronze (made mostly of copper) for the doorway. Maybe other metals have other meanings to the *finn, but pure iron is poison to them, as they are creatures of a different world.<br />


created: 2005-12-18 01:37:53
subject: <b>Another idea for iron...</b>
body:
Copper is needed to get in, right? To open the door. Perhaps Aludra's &quot;dragon&quot; concept in a handheld version. The copper to make the &quot;hand gun&quot;, fire to ignite it, little iron pellets, you know, kinda like buckshot. Wasn't this the concept when she described it in KoD? Almost like a over glorified shotgun? The loss of eye/half the light/bloody face could be from a backfire.<br /><br />Of course, the courage could be the gall they have in pulling this rescue off. <br /><br />I'm not being sarcastic or anything on this, please don't feel that way. It's just that with RJ's introduction of guns here in WoT, it almost seems as though this would be a fairly logical route for Mat to &quot;cheat&quot;<br /><br />As always, I very much enjoy reading your theories and FAQ. Heck, honestly if it weren't for you I'd be a WoT numbskull... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-12-18 06:35:20
subject: <b>Well done Linda</b>
body:
Very original idea for the iron! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Lady Isa</font><br /><br /><font color="pink">nominated WoTboard's Moiraine AND Mesaana</font><br /><font color="blue">Member of the Fearsome Four</font><br /><font color="crimson">Bonded to Sidious and Phil</font><br /><font color="green">Cindy is one <i>Green</i> Redneck</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <font color="violet"><b>July 12th 2008</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 09:31:48
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
The biggest problem for beating the Finn has always been how to get iron in.<br /><br />Another reference to blood for binding is found in PoD (?) when the 4 Borderland rulers cut their hands and exchanged blood as a binder to stay their course.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 11:42:35
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
I actually had shivers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Siddy's Green<br /><font color="gray">*wears the bowtie*</font><br /><br /><font color="teal"><i>Obama - &quot;Vote for me, I'm Barack Obama&quot;<br />McCain - &quot;Vote for me, I'm not Barack Obama&quot;</i></font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 11:46:14
subject: <b>good, but how would they know?</b>
body:
I like the idea, but wonder whether anyone would know why the blood worked.  <br /><br />You've suggested that neither Mat nor Thom nor Noal would know about iron in blood, to which I agree, and wonder when the existence and essential presence of iron in human blood was discovered in the real world?  The thing is, once the trio figures out they need to cheat, they won't be relying on blood, because presumably none of them would have any clue about iron in blood.  Which would mean they'd try something else.  <br />Ah, you say, that's fine, their other plan (whatever it turns out to be) fails, but once Mat is wounded and the blood starts flowing, they win.<br /><br />So, my final question is how anyone figures out it was the IRON in the blood that mattered, as opposed to some other quality of blood, to the extent that the IRON aspect is what goes down in legend as being essential to beating the Finns (Ages come and go and all that).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 16:53:03
subject: <b>Keep In Mind</b>
body:
that in The Snakes and Foxes there are only two players.  I always just figured the inclusion of a third person was the trick needed to get in and out alive.


created: 2005-12-18 17:14:42
subject: <b>I just got an idea</b>
body:
I just read Ashaman Assassin's post, and this came to me. Snakes and Foxes is a two player game. And the inclusion of a third may help the other two win. On this rescue mission, Noal (if he is the third man) may be a sacrifice/distraction that allows Mat and Thom to escape with Moiraine. <br /><br />Also more Snakes and Foxes symbology. The point of the game is to go from the center, to the edge, and then back to the center. The rescue will consist of the entrance, going to find Moiraine, and then returning to the entrance. The tower is just one big faded red cloth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 17:22:56
subject: <b>One note</b>
body:
One thing that speaks strongly against the blood thing is that people are allowed to bring steel into the finn world. I remember quite well that Mat was checking his knives after going through the doorframe in Tear.<br /><br />Since steel contains much more iron than blood, why would blood be more dangerous for the finns?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 18:30:04
subject: <b>To SmellyLlama...</b>
body:
Are you sure that steel contains much more iron than blood? I'm not a metalurgist, but although steel does contain iron, it's a completely different metal. When the two are mixed, a chemical reactions changes the iron and, whatever, disrupting the molecular composition. As for blood, sure there's only a small amount per blood cell, but there's a hell of a lot more blood in the human body than there is iron in, say, a dagger. Once Mat loses his eye, there's bound to be some sort of spray. It just may hit one of the Finns, cause some sort of weird reaction. I don't know. I just like to pop in at random times and try to shoot people down. Have a nice day!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-18 18:43:58
subject: <b>Iron = Blood</b>
body:
This is a nice theory. In fact i might add another point to it.<br />When the Finns sentence Mat to death, he is hung from a tree. Which is one of easiest ways to kill someone without shedding his blood. Well, there might be other explanations why they used this method but it fits with Linda's theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-19 01:11:22
subject: <b>Blood bonds for life or death</b>
body:
Like Semi said, amazing how much blood could cover the crystal throne - or some such.  And as Jo said above, blood is used in the WoT world, as well as our own, to bind for oaths.  Iron to bind.<br /><br />Perhaps Mat gives his eye to the Finns so that they might continue to see the goings-on in his world, and his blood split along with that is the treaty that binds them from ever taking a part of anyone else's life and memories.  <br /><br />Moiraine I think they'll just have to steal back any way they can <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-19 02:38:14
subject: <b>The third will be Olver</b>
body:
good theory. seems to fit together nicely.<br /><br />I believe the third person will be ugly Olver/ Gaidal Cain who will be along for the adventure, possibly as a stowaway.


created: 2005-12-19 04:16:28
subject: <b>Original idea</b>
body:
But I doubt that the Finn are really such vulnerable to blood.<br /><br />First of all, the Eelfinn wear human skin. <br />That indicates that they have no problems to butcher humans and thus come into contract with their blood.<br /><br />They even wear blades which would lead to bloody wounds if used.<br />That they hung Mat had rather mythological reasons for RJ, since also Odin hung from a tree for wisdom.<br /><br />Therefore I think it makes more sense that the iron will be cuendillar.   <br />I suggested cuendillar bracelets (Rand has some now) which could help to bind and capture a Finn. Like Mat's steel blade the Finn won't recognize cuendillar as a danger, but in my opinion it will work.<br /><br />Thus the rules of Snakes and Foxes would be twisted, because in this game the fleeing human is in danger to be captured by the Finn not the other way round.


created: 2005-12-19 10:19:13
subject: <b>part of the chapter summary</b>
body:
Through the doorway in tear:<br /><br />&quot;Mat POV - Mat goes to the Great Holding in the basement of the Stone of Tear and finds the twisted red doorway. He steps through and finds himself in a strange room with spiral yellow columns. He hears a voice and turns pulling a knife. The strange figure looks snake-like being very thin and having slit pupils. The snake man asks if he brought a light source, musical instrument or iron despite seeing Mat's steel knife...&quot;


created: 2005-12-19 10:54:23
subject: <b>Cuendillar</b>
body:
I think that the cuendillar bracelets will be the key -- although that may be a too literal translation of &quot;iron to bind&quot;.<br />


created: 2005-12-19 14:42:01
subject: <b>Maybe ...</b>
body:
But I don't think so.<br /><br />It seems like the *Finn are NOT susceptible to steel, even though it is mostly iron.  (BTW, alloys are more like a mixture or solution than like a molecular compound, such as the hemoglobin molecule in blood).  Since they have obviously obtained skins, it SEEMS they are not susceptible to blood, at least in small amounts.<br /><br />I think it must be something about pure iron that threatens them.  But I can't think how they will be able to smuggle it in, unless it is hidden inside something else.<br /><br />Liked the idea, though.<br />


created: 2005-12-20 13:21:30
subject: <b>Iron and steel</b>
body:
Isnt steel just iron ore that has been treated with high concentrations of oxygen to eliminate the carbon present in the ore...? <br />Is there any other theory of who this 3rd person can be besides Noal? <br />


created: 2005-12-20 18:46:13
subject: <b>heres my take on it;</b>
body:
Ok so we all know to win at s&amp;f you need to cheat, now we know Mat cheated by; asking too many questions, and not setting a price for his foxhead and Ashanderei (sp?)<br />the ONLY OTHER WAY mentioned of cheating is not to flee the s/f's but to chase them.<br />Well, to me chasing something that's hunting you instead of running, sounds like courage to me, so I think thats sorted.<br />ok so we're left with music fire and Iron; one problem with the fire point is that I personally don't think its really necessary to beat them, it just helps, I don't have the quote but when Rand makes the firey power sword, he says they shied away from it, the didnt run away screaming, but think again, how did Mat cheat? in Tear's doorway, they answered the questin because of the 2 ta'veren(dunno if the ' is in the right place) now I don't recall but either they cannot control their desire for ta'veren or the twisting of the pattern is damaging their realm, so they are scared, ok so assuming its the second one, you can cheat when they are scared. Fire scares them, so there you go.<br />now does mat really cheat in the rhuidean door way...not really... well when you cheat its supposed to be good for you...mat got hung...not really good there. so assuming he didnt really cheat... we have music and Iron, and no more ways to cheat...so lets re-asess...chase them; why would this work in the finn realm, surely unless you scared them off with fire they wouldnt run, so lets assume instead of chasing them its just going to them, why, and what has that to go do with music or iron...well given mats experience, I'm guessing he will want to be outa there asap. so Rainey (moiraine) is in there SOMEWHERE. Mat wants to scarper. Each doorway has dizzying corridors that Mat can't tell the difference between, so they need to find Rainey, it'll be very difficult, so why approach a finn? well they're probably going to need a guide, but he's not going to help willingly, heres where it gets good, the music makes them relax, assuming they're like humans in that way, and the iron ties 'em up so they can drag it around untill they find Rainey.<br />how do they get them in? well fire to scare them, Aludra's firestick things, music Thom can do the whole High chant thing or use, get this, an Iron harp thing. Now, hopefully, RJ hasn't been at the spirits, or the unlceansed Saidin, so he may not do this but here's how it will work, the Finn's will obviously know a musical instrument if they see one, but they can't tell if you have any thing hidden, nor can they tell what its made of, or else why do they ask whether you've got the stuff, so...the harp is disguised as a bow, when the Finn sees the bow isnt a harp the extra iron chords are added, then after he's been lulled by the music the harp is unstrung and the chords tie up the Finn (I know it won't happen but everyone seems to have the same ideas I'm just being a bit Fedwin Morr here ok?) Otherwise Cuendillar is my best choice for Iron, I mean the power can't do much to change anything elementally, just change its state, so I'd assume its just Iron in a 'super solid OP resistant' state.<br /><br />I think thats everything,<br /><br />


created: 2005-12-20 19:30:08
subject: <b>I like this idea.</b>
body:
You get a thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-12-25 13:00:26
subject: <b>Not the iron in blood</b>
body:
Everyone has blood, why would they bother asking about iron if they were worried about the iron in peoples blood? Surely they cant expect visitors to check their blood at the door.<br /><br />Assuming someone has tricked them before, and got away (otherwise there wouldn't be any rules or game) if it was blood they used to defeat the finns wouldn't the rules just specify blood and not 'iron to bind'. Unless the Finns have been around since the AoL then would they even know that blood has iron in it and that that was the active ingredient which was affecting them? I doubt it.<br /><br />Also if it is blood that can defeat the finns Mat would never know about iron in blood and so the chapter where they rescue Moiraine (assuming its Mats PoV) would not make much sense to the characters or us - unless we had read this post which i think is unwise for RJ to assume (or unless he thinks it is intuitively obvious).<br /><br />I think the Finns are a little too trusting for their own good - they didn't even search Mat when he went in either time, they just believed him - the fools. He could probably just hide the matches/handcuffs about his person and wait til the right time, then confuse/blind/pacify them and bind them as the rules suggest, and make off with Moiraine.<br /><br />plus third person - Olver or Noel, i'm not bothered, i can't see what use either would be unless to serve as a distraction/sacrifice. Having multiple people at a time did seem to upset the finns in tSR, so maybe thats all they need a third person for.<br /><br />


created: 2005-12-28 20:52:40
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I think its a interesting idea but that would probably take alot of blood. Could be what the third persons for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nalesean was my hero.<br /><br />I hate that Gholam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 16:39:00
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
Ok, first I have to thank you from the bottom of my heart for recognizing that you don't need an instrument to make music. A voice works fine. I could never understand why so many people have been wracking thier brains to figure out how to &quot;sneek in&quot; music.<br />Next, the blood. I like that. I couldn't figure how to get iron (assuming it more covert and not just blatently defying every rule) in without causing a stir. A lot of people have suggested cuendillar but that, like Mat's steel knives, used to be iron. It's not anymore and considering thier lack of reaction to Mat's knives it never worked for me. Good notion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />Shadow men talk a real good game<br />Every punchline has your name<br />You cried out and no one came to you<br />~Tom Petty~<br /><br />Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-11 19:50:21
subject: <b>no problems really</b>
body:
About many of these problems people seem to be finding<br /><br />1)Mat has brought iron in in the form of his knives when he came through the doorway in tear. they don't seem threatened by weapons etc.<br /><br />Maybe they don't see iron as a threat until one of the other elements mentioned in  the song are present. We don't know much about the 'finns or what they are capable of. so maybe they are confident they can avoid any weapons unless they are scared by fire or pacified by music first.<br /><br />2)How would the charracters and readers know what's going on if it is blood?<br /><br />Moiraine might know just because. Or Verin could mysteriously pop up as the exit the 'finn lands. It doens't have to be obvious to anyone it can be explained later. I can just see it mat would say something like &quot;what flaming happenned?!&quot; then some Aes Sedai would calmly say &quot;Iron. Human blood contains... etc.&quot;<br /><br />3)They wear human skin obviously blood doesn't scare them.<br /><br />One they could kill all their victims by hanging or strangling. the dead don't bleed nearly as much as the living. Once again we don't know what they are capable of so wearing human skin is not tantamount to being bled on.<br /><br />Oh yeah and the iron harp idea sounds cool but I doubt you would get anything resembling music from iron strings on an instrument assembled on the spot wiht no chance to tune it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-06 11:05:17
subject: <b>Redstone doorways</b>
body:
Correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i know  - not bringing fire, iron or musical instruments was part of the ancient pact made for using the redstone doorways.  Since i'm assuming they are entering the tower of Genji itself, do they have to abide these restrictions at all?  It's entirely possible that by entering through the tower, the restrictions can be circumvented, ie. the &quot;cheating&quot; neccessary to winning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-10 23:07:16
subject: <b>not sure but...</b>
body:
Doesn't it say somewhere in the books (maybe Brigitte does) that those agreements (music, iron etc.) only are valid if you enter by those doorways. <br /><br />That's the reason why it is so dangerous to enter via the Tower of Ghenji.


created: 2007-06-06 10:27:11
subject: <b>can't be the blood</b>
body:
I don't think the iron will be from Mat's blood.  I can't remember if it was the snakes or foxes, but the &quot;guide&quot; for mat was wearing a harness made of flesh.  You can't make a harness from skin and not be around blood.  I don't think Thom would have any trouble sneaking in something iron.  I'm sure gleemen can hide stuff in their robes like a magician or wizard.  Who knows what kind of throwing knives Thom might have up his sleeve.  We already seen his &quot;special&quot; daggers.


created: 2005-12-21 07:36:44
subject: <b>its interesting...</b>
body:
i have one q though, what did semirage do to make rands eye all sensitive to light n stuff or when did it happen. and another thing, just sayin. If youre talking about some animal eating his eye or whatever, it could be one of the finns kus you know they are the Snakes and the Foxes, just a thought. very good, id like to look into that some more<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-21 09:24:17
subject: <b>To IrresistableIrene:</b>
body:
My apologies if you haven't read this far. Semirhage's fire seems to have burned Rand's eyes. Such an injury could could cause these symptoms:<br /><br />KoD, A Plain Wooden Box<br /><i>The black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water, and he wanted to squint against a sun that appeared to glare ten times brighter than it had.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure the *finn would actually eat a part of him. Somehow I think RJ will turn the myth around, still keeping some hint of it, but not mirroring it exactly. And he will probably draw some aspects from other mythologies like Odin's, and other legends involving deals with the otherworld. The scene in which Rand is injured by the fire is reminiscent of the story of Tyr and Fenris, for example, but only enough to recognize it.<br /><br />The core of the theory is that Mat will be bound in his attempt to free Moiraine, caused by his bringing fire to the *finn (in the form of those sticks Aludra makes, which the *finn would not know about), and Rand's impossible things, his dying and living again, will somehow be involved, maybe through a bargain with the *finn.<br />


created: 2005-12-21 10:22:24
subject: <b>To IrresistableIrene (again):</b>
body:
I have a little something more to add. The parallel of the trickster god in Norse myth is Loki, who was also bound, to three rocks, and tormented by venom dripped on him from a snake, which of course the Aelfinn resemble. The venom dripped onto his <i>face</i> (probably not relevant, but the pain he felt caused earthquakes). I don't think you can find a more direct reference than that.<br /><br />Also a correction to my original post: I believe the titans were not exactly gods, only giants.<br />


created: 2005-12-21 10:53:54
subject: <b>Have to disagree</b>
body:
I doubt that Perrin's Dream about the bound Mat deals with a part of Moiraine's rescue from Finnland.<br />Other Prophecies, which are most likely connected to the rescue, don't show a naked and bound Mat before and after he loses his eye. <br /><br />On the contrary, they show that Mat is free and deliberately risks his eye, e.g. Egwene's Dreams:<br /><br />&quot;Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.&quot; (TDR, ch.25)<br />or<br />&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound.&quot; (TFoH, ch.15) <br /><br />Therefore I also don't believe that Mat will be bound by the Finn, that &quot;some thing&quot; will take Mat's eye against his will or as an punishment, or that Rand will also be involved in Moiraine's rescue and free Mat.<br /><br />Furthermore, you seem to imply that just bringing fire to the Finn will have some dire effect.<br />But when Rand uses his fire sword against the Aelfinn in TSR, they just shied away from the fire; nothing more happens.<br /><br />In my opinion fire, music and iron (plus courage) will simply be needed to capture a Finn and probably exchange him for Moiraine.<br /><br />That would explain why the Finn don't want these things in their realm, that you have to break the rules of Snakes and Foxes to win (because in the game the Finn chase the human) and the chant: &quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.&quot;<br /><br />All in all, I don't think that the myth of Prometheus and Mat's future are related in any way.


created: 2005-12-21 12:08:35
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
but I think Etzel is more correct.<br /><br />Rand surely won`t be involved in the rescue.<br /><br />However, many of my beliefs have been shot down by RJ. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-21 13:48:09
subject: <b>To Etzel and jofraz:</b>
body:
The point about Mat giving his eye willingly: this seems like Mat's defining moment, a sacrifice for the greater good, which is seen a lot in myths. I see how that doesn't fit with the Prometheus story, in which he was tormented. But it could be that Mat undergoes torment willingly to save Moiraine. Mat's not such a selfish guy after all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> There have to be changes in the story since myths are always in a state of flux over the course of Ages.<br /><br />As for the unlikelyhood that Rand will help in rescuing Moiraine: Rand now believes she's dead, as she intended, to protect him from the danger of rescue. But, there might be some way, however unlikely, that something Rand does makes the rescue possible, something that Moiraine did not foresee. Something that seems telling to me is that Rand has never asked for any wishes, and still could if given the chance.<br /><br />The little detail in the myth of Herakles shooting the eagle to free Prometheus seems an important detail that likely will be reflected in the story somehow, in at least some indirect way that Rand or Mat never realizes. Pretty shaky ground to base a theory on, but RJ plots so sneakily sometimes.<br /><br />As for Mat bringing fire to the *finn: they might, as Mat himself already suspects, be ready and waiting for him. They might have a trap in place, as they couldn't have for Rand.<br /><br /><i>All in all, I don't think that the myth of Prometheus and Mat's future are related in any way.</i><br /><br />It's an unlikely theory taken all together, I admit, but it's too strong to say, I think, that no part of it will be significant since I doubt RJ would neglect any significant myth that he could use. At the very least I believe the part about the agreement revoking immortality is significant in some way.<br />


created: 2005-12-21 17:33:38
subject: <b>no dice</b>
body:
I do not believe that Rand will be involved. Moiraine, before she went mia back in Tear, told Nynaeve that she knew the name of her own future husband better than Nynaeve. So I think that she knew she was going to be rescued, and how. However, her letter to Rand mentions nothing about a rescue. She only writes to Thom and Mat about that. So, I don't believe that Rand will be involved. <br />As for Mat, I think that the ashendari is only symbolic for his fate with either the finn and/or seanchean. His eye will be literal. I can't remember where, but there was something in Egwene's dreams about Mat having to decide on the life of two women, and I think both could channel if they weren't already aes sedai. That will be his true sacrifice, since he has killed women, and hates doing it. He'll save Moiraine, but allow another woman to die (maybe Tuon?), and his eye will be gladly given up when the stakes are that high.<br />I like the idea of Prometheus, but see the myth maybe reversed. Fire coming to storm rather than enlighten. A sacrifice made willingly rather than forced. As for the eagle and immortality being taken, I think that's a stretch. Rand and all of his head-friends were destined to die anyway. Immortality was never taken away.


created: 2005-12-21 19:33:26
subject: <b>To i bore a hole:</b>
body:
I got the revoked immortality idea from the fact that in the prologue to the series Lews Therin clearly committed suicide, but later turned up Rand's head as he was just before he died, as if his death was erased. It may only be his memories and personality in Rand's head, and not his whole self, but it does seem as if he's been granted a kind of immortality, a strange parody of the kind of immortality the Forsaken have been granted. He continually talks about killing himself again, and maybe wonders if he will ever die if the Pattern doesn't allow it.<br />


created: 2005-12-21 23:23:42
subject: <b>to paetram</b>
body:
My take was that Rand was fated to die anyway, so that Mat couldn't be responsible for taking away LTT's immortality...unless that fate relied upon Mat's actions. But that would mean that Mat couldn't be killed before he helped Rand to die. I don't know, there's seems too much in there that must rely upon loose and strict interpretation...


created: 2005-12-22 16:47:18
subject: <b>Trading an eye for an Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Just a thought, maybe Mat's eye is traded for Moiraines freedom,  as last time in the Snake world Mat made demands without first agreeing on a price and it cost him a hanging. This time he will pay the price knowingly, if not glady. His horse trading skills will be tested to their limit or he may fight for Moiraine as a condition of her release, resulting in the loss of an eye if he loses, as a bargainwith the 'Finns.


created: 2005-12-28 15:58:20
subject: <b>An eye for the foxes</b>
body:
I think Mat shall willingly trade his eye for Moiraine. Remember, the silver foxhead medallion has only one eye - another of RJ's hints?


created: 2005-12-30 16:54:20
subject: <b>Eye</b>
body:
I believe that Mat will use iron, fire, and music to capture the finn, he'll demand that they release Mouraine (for some reason he won't be able to do so himself), but they will refuse, she is worth to much for some reason, and Mat will offer his eye, and their freedom for Mouraine's release.  This would explain the &quot;balancing scale.&quot;


created: 2006-01-03 10:14:55
subject: <b>Eye</b>
body:
It does not have to be his actual eye. It could be the taking away of all the other memories in his head. Giving up the skills that make him the general he is, giving up his luck to boot. Dreams are less literal and more pictures of words rather than a Photo of events


created: 2006-01-10 06:37:29
subject: <b>Mat's eye.</b>
body:
I think Mat will give up his eye as part of the bargain. It will be the eye that they have been watching the world through and he will be happy to be rid of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 14:48:51
subject: <b>Good and Bad</b>
body:
I agree with this theory, except for the symbolism.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 14:27:03
subject: <b>Mat's eye, prophecy, and Aes Sedai</b>
body:
It was prophecy that Mat would give up half the light of the world to save the world. This fits nicely with the lose an eye theory. Egwene had a dream with Mat's eye on a balance. This fits nicely with balancing a bargain with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. The ter'angreal that Mat has has a symbol for Aes sedai for one of its eyes. This fits nicely with the trade of an eye for an Aes Sedai (Moraine). This fits nicely together, don't you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 15:45:53
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
This is what I think...<br /><br />Mat and the other's will lead a rescue to the Finn, they will fail to do it themselves and be captured by the Finn, and then Mat will try to talk with them, his eye will be traded for the Freedom of Moiraine and this is what it means that &quot;he will give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot;  Why do you ask?<br /><br />Remember Min's viewing?  how can Rand need a woman dead and gone, that Rand will need Moiraine before the coming of TG.<br /><br />Moiraine needs to get back to Rand, if she is not there, he will fail, the wheel will be broken, so it all depends on Mat freeing Moiraine, So if by doing this he gives an eye...he is<br /><br />Giving up half the Light of the World to save the World.


created: 2005-12-22 07:03:51
subject: <b>Uncertainty</b>
body:
Although this is an interesting idea, I have my doubts. Here are a couple of points to consider:<br />1. If Cadsuane is a member of this special ajah (I'll call it the Orange ajah - only primary colour not used yet), then Verin is not, since they do not trust one another. Same for the reverse (if Verin is, then Cadsuane isn't). Given this, I am more enclined to think that Cadsuane is the Orange sister, as she has more evidence supporting her.<br />2. There is an alternate explanation for why other aes sedai may come for him in the alternate lives - a) the other aes sedai were black sisters (excepting the red sisters that were likely there to gentle him). b) other aes sedai were present when Gitara gave the foretelling, and so replaced Moiraine as the dragon hunter. c) The other aes sedai were the other dragon hunters sent by Tamra before death. d) they could have been Gitara or Tamra themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 07:26:39
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Lews Therin was Aes Sedai and therefore All Aes Sedai should be there to assist &quot;him&quot; when he is reborn.<br /><br />It is my belief that this was the original purpose of the WT when it was founded and 3000 years of politics has led the Ajah's astray from their true purpose, to protect mankind from the shadow. <br /><br />It seems Morraine and Siuan acted on their own after the Aiel war, picking up allies here and there. Likewise Cadsuanne has had hundreds of years to prepare herself.<br /><br />In summary I don't believe in a secret Ajah dedicated to the Dragon.


created: 2005-12-22 09:56:01
subject: <b>Wouldn't call it Ajah</b>
body:
There's no doubt that there are some Aes Sedai who have dedicated their lives to guide the Dragon Reborn to winning Tarmon Gai'don, but from the evidence we have in the books there is no organization behind them. This also explains why Cadsuane and Verin don't trust each other too much although they seem to have the same goal. BTW Aielyn, Cannoli has posted a theory on the Message Post a couple of days ago where  he proves that Cadsuane trusts Verin in a way or she wouldn't have given her the lead of a defending circle at the Cleansing (although he calls it a terrible mistake which I don't agree with).<br />Of course it is possible to say that no Black sister knows more than two others (except the Head of the Supreme Council perhaps), just for safety reasons, and thus this &quot;Orange&quot; Ajah is organized similarly, which would explain that Cadsuane and Verin both don`t know their sharing. <br />And, if I remember correctly, Moiraine (certainly an &quot;Orange&quot; sister, too) thought that Cadsuane was Black, back in New Spring...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I evil? Yes I am!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 10:02:38
subject: <b>a more sutable name...</b>
body:
would be the dragon ajah but it does not keep to the colour based names of the other 8.<br /><br />In my opinion verin was dragon (or orange if you prefer) and psudo-compeled morrine and suain to hunt because the black could and did find out about the dragon hunters sent by tarna, so she needed a covert hunter so therefore the only none oragne/dragon sisters who knew about rand being born.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 12:29:39
subject: <b>nope - there is no purple-orange-or whatever ajah</b>
body:
Once upon a time I started a theory about Cadsuane being a part of and in charge of a secret order that may or may not have been part of the WT. I had a bunch of 'evidence' for it, and then when I dug deeper - basically collecting all of her thoughts from the books, I very quickly disproved my theory. Cadsuane is not a part of another secret ajah. I don't have time to fine the quote, but it clearly shows that Cadsuane is not part of any 'secret order/ajah'. <br /><br />However, it is pretty clear that after the events of EOTW and TGH, Cadsuane began gathering a few followers, and it's likely that after the WT split, that these followers of Cadsuane's represent at least a portion of, if not a large portion of, the ~1/3 of AS who have remained neutral in the WT conflict. <br /><br />As for the rest of your theory, some of the logic is a bit flawed in coming to conclusions. I like the idea of another ajah, and it comes up from time to time, but it is very clear now in the series that there is not one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 13:12:52
subject: <b>I agree that there is an ajah (not Ajah), but Cadsuane is not part of it</b>
body:
As it was pointed above, the Cadsuane's numerous POVs prove that she is not part of any larger organization or goals. She, as any strong Green sister, came along the information that the Dragon is reborn and she concluded TG is coming ans he needs her help.<br /><br />Verine, on the other hand, may well be the one of such ajah. ajah (lowercase) does not require some formal organization, unlike Ajah. It may well be just very few of sisters that pass along some information to their young selected pupils, thus ensuring that the knowledge would not die.


created: 2005-12-22 14:15:48
subject: <b>Definately not Vernin</b>
body:
Vernin has a POV where she states that she would not let the dragon reborn get in the way of her completing her grand plan.  Vernin's goal whatever it is, has nothing to do with Rand.  But Rand, but simply because of who he is and the changes he is causing has swept her up in his wake.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 16:27:25
subject: <b>What is this?</b>
body:
Lightfriends meet the Pink ( or purple, or orange, depending on who you ask ) Ajah?<br /><br />I'm sorry, but there's not much to support this theory. Also, the very purpose of the White Tower was to prepare for Tarmon Gai'don, it makes no sense to have a secret Ajah with the exact same purpose.<br /><br />Finally Cadsuane, is Shai'tan's avatar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 16:53:03
subject: <b>One other thing</b>
body:
Secret Ajah <br />Submitted by Eskia <br />Posted on 1/22/2001<br /><br />Pretty much the same idea, with different details.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 16:59:40
subject: <b>One thing</b>
body:
It couldnt have been these Aes Sedai that put callandor in place, because the wardings are made from both saidin and saidar. Males would need to have been present.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-22 21:02:37
subject: <b>note</b>
body:
in TSR page 431 it mentions the male Aes Sedai Kodam and his fellows therefore this group could have (and most likely were) the group to place callandor.


created: 2005-12-22 21:13:03
subject: <b>note 2</b>
body:
You do have a point Aielyn, your ideas on which Aes Sedai came for Rand are just as (if not slightly more) valid as my own. I just read that theory you mentioned Fanatic templar and it suggests that Verin is a member of a dragon ajah but I dont feel it ditracts from mine and still feel that I do have some new ideas. Also I never pictured the hidden ajah organized along the lines of more traditional ajahs and only use the term ajah for lack of a better term.Also my idea has nothing to do with light friends, I don't believe this group is working directly on behalf of the creator or anything like that.


created: 2005-12-23 00:19:07
subject: <b>if someone can confirm...</b>
body:
I thought that Robert Jordan said that the ajah system was created when aes sedai started joining for the purpose of creating order in the world. The different ajah colors represent the factions that joined together, since no group wanted to become subordinate to any other; they merged while retaining their specific identities based on their goals. From this, I would find it hard to agree with your theory. I can't see a group dedicated to the dragon separated into several pre-ajahs (only one ajah would contain the dragon-dedicated), nor would I think that a pre-ajah would have two separate aims. Further, the aims of the dragon-dedicated would have to have been hidden from the other members of the pre-ajah long before they joined into the tower, or else an entire ajah would have to have been involved. If someone could confirm Jordan's statement, I know that I read it somewhere...


created: 2005-12-23 08:56:17
subject: <b>I almost agreed...</b>
body:
For a long time, I liked to think of it as purple. Verin seemed to be the prime candidate (the oath thing, her behaviour to Siuann and Moiraine early book 2, later dealings with Cadsuane, use of &quot;compulsion&quot; in direct support of Rand). To me though, when I thought about it, her dealings with other sisters disproved it. Sisters who support the Dragon seem to have come to their conclusions independentely. What we see are individual Sisters, perhaps small factions within each Ajah. They all appear to have broadly similar goals (find and protect Dragon, purge Black Ajah, fight Last Battle) yet do not work together. They often view each other with suspiscion. At the heart of this is the divide between the Ajah's seen in an exaggerated sense among Elaida's &quot;friends&quot;. Perhaps Rands closest friends will bring together the Blues (Siuan, Moiraine), Greens (Egwene, Elayne, Leane, Cadsuane), Browns (Verin), Yellows (Nynaeve) and maybe even the Reds through Logain. Ultimately the major divide in the Tower is between the Blacks (Alviarin and Taim) and &quot;Lights&quot;; White taken already; (Egwene and Rand/Logain). Let's just hope everyone realises this before the Last Battle is upon us.


created: 2005-12-23 12:55:37
subject: <b>Cadsuane?</b>
body:
I agree but not with the Cadsuane part. I found lots of info. proving she is Black(she was traveling with a black sister in New Spring, won't tell Rand how she learned a gateway and lastly she just happened to appear after the one sister, Moiraine who would point fingers is supposedly dead, that and I hate her) So I think it's clear she is black and unless this secret group is full of Black sisters I'm going have to say no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-24 10:48:22
subject: <b>In addition</b>
body:
I forgot one thing that also points to Cadsuane to being Blak. When she first mets Rand she says a thing about madness that is almost identical to what Semirhage tells Rand in KoD.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-24 16:38:11
subject: <b>To Tigra Wildheart...</b>
body:
Cadsuane was not traveling with Merean in <i>New Spring</i> they just came across each other while in that city.<br /><br /><br />There were a great number of sisters in the BL at the time Moiraine shows up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-12-25 08:25:10
subject: <b>so.</b>
body:
who thinks Moiraine is part of that Ajah? i'm going for not, i think if anyone Caddy is, as she thought Moiraine had bungled Rand and other evidence that you've all mentioned.<br /><br />But I think that by the way Siuan and Mo thought they were alone and did everything in secret makes them unlikiely candidates for this Ajah.<br /><br />I think that when Caddy grabbed Moiraine and tried to keep her as a pet in New Spring, she was maybe planning on enlisting Moiraine to her Ajah-<br />Mo's young, strong, fair, brave... perfect for this secret Ajah. She would have taught Moiraine like the wilder in the Black Hills taught Caddy and found the Dragon together<br /><br /> (thats why Caddy started talking about age- she was figuring that all the good Ajah are getting old and now they need more people CUE MOIRAINE) <br /><br />but Moiraine ran off and ruined that plan.<br /><br />Maybe Mo will be enlisted when she returns, becuase i love moiraine lol<br /><br />Thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-27 16:49:24
subject: <b>Maybe - but not Cadsuane/Verin</b>
body:
What about something totally off the wall - a secret order within the Red Ajah dedicated to supporting the Dragon Reborn?<br /><br />Think about it - the purpose of the White Tower is to prepare for Tarmon Gai'don (where the Dragon Reborn will face the Dark One). There are two Ajah's that stand in their way - the Black (obviously) and the Red - whose purpose it is to find men who can channel and gentle them.<br /><br />So what better place to support the Dragon Reborn than from within an Ajah dedicated to gentling male channellers, all that you have to do is recognise that the Dragon has been reborn and support him surreptitiously while pulling down other pretenders.<br /><br />Of course your plans go astray when the White Tower splits and those that you had helped put in place are pulled down and replaced by a maniac.<br /><br />(I haven't read Knife of Dreams yet so I don't know if there are any spoilers in that)<br />


created: 2006-01-02 10:50:05
subject: <b>12 Ajahs at least at the creation of the White Tower</b>
body:
I was skimming through the Wheel of Time sourcebook the other day when, on the section of the Ajahs, there was material saying that there were AT LEAST 12 Ajahs at the formation of the White Tower in Tar Valon, and actually more.  There were 12 Aes Sedai representing their Ajahs and other ajahs present for the formation of the White Tower.<br />One of these smaller or &quot;minor&quot; ajahs could have easily publicly declared the ending of their ajah when in actuality they continued to exist all along. <br />My two cents<br /><br />Nikolai al'Farran<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 16:17:48
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
I like this idea. I just don't believe it.<br /> <br />Here's why<br />1) lot's of Aes Sedai &quot;supporting&quot; him, none working  together.  Caddy has followers of her own and they if they help out Rand it's not to &quot;Support The Dragon Reborn&quot;. It's because she told them to. Verin does seem to supprt him but, as has been pointed out, she has plans of her own.<br />2) all of the Aes Sedai want to &quot;help&quot; Rand win the last battle, even Elaida, they just have different ideas about how to do it. This is part of their purpose to begin with so there's no point having a secret society dedicated to this<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />Shadow men talk a real good game<br />Every punchline has your name<br />You cried out and no one came to you<br />~Tom Petty~<br /><br />Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-12 00:15:07
subject: <b>Here's a better name...</b>
body:
The Orange or Dragon Ajah?<br /><br />Well, I think we should just put them both together. It'll be called the Dragon Ajah, but it's color will be orange. <br /><br />But I don't really like the orange theme. How about we use the colors Brown and Gray. Brown for the passing on of knowledge, and gray to represent the mix of good and evil.<br /><br />The color will actually be Gray-Brown-Gray; They're surrounded by unknown evil. <br /><br />And since they're battling this evil, we'll call it Dragon Army instead.<br /><br />Yeah! Dragon Army, and their colors shall be Gray-Brown-Gray!<br /><br /><br />(i couldn't resist)


created: 2006-01-13 12:50:59
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
Sorilea taught her the weave for traveling.  Now tell me truly would a Black Ajah leader as strong as Cadsuane provide the most protection for him on the hill when he was clensing the Saidin???  Maybe, but not likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-14 02:22:53
subject: <b>Ajah's of their own</b>
body:
I doubt there is a secret coherent body of Aes Sedai working either as lightfriends or to help the Dragon Reborn. It's fairly clear that Verin and Cadsuane are not working together, although Verin seems to feel she can trust Cadsuane after not putting sleeping potion in her tea (can't remember which book) and later leaving a note for Rand in KoD stating that while he might find a worse advisor he wouldn't find a better one.<br /><br />Moraine, Siuan, Tamra (the Armylin at the time) were the only ones with Gitara when she died fortelling the birth of the DR (New Spring) although it is hinted that Gitara and Tamra were aware that he would be born soon.  Moraine and Siuan's search was a secret project known only to the two of them, until Verin busted them in TEoTW.<br /><br />There is a POV from Verin where she says something along the lines of a project she has been working on for 70 years - I don't think she states categorically that it is searching or helping the DR, it could be easily construed as that.<br /><br />And as someone else said Cadsuane had been gathering AS she could trust since she realised the Dragon was reborn - sometime near the Aiel War (I think).<br /><br />Maybe there is a hidden ajah, but I don't think any of the characters we have met are part of it. The hidden ajahs are the Verin Ajah, the Cadsuane Ajah and the Moraine and Siuan Ajah, although agenda might be the better term.


created: 2006-05-01 20:08:55
subject: <b>She's not old enough</b>
body:
I doubt very much that Cadsuane is old enough. She has the ageless face--she didn't escape the Oaths. Let's assume for a moment that she took the oaths when she was old already--even so, that's way too long. She should be most of the way to what Aginor and Balthamel looked like by now. That she is a generation or two removed from those sisters, however, I would not doubt.<br /><br />And yeah, &quot;ajah&quot; probably isn't the best term. It was just a few concerned sisters. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-05-02 18:56:10
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
Thanks for the comment Goaswerfraiejen, I would just like to point out that I never suggested that Cadsuane was one of the original members of this group, she would have been recruited many generations later once all of the original members were long dead.


created: 2006-07-14 09:21:57
subject: <b>Going back to the Age o f Legends conception of &quot;Ajah&quot;</b>
body:
In the Age of Legends, an &quot;Ajah&quot; was considered a temporary group denoted by similiar beliefs or opinions. I think we are seeing the White Tower of the current age regress to this, in that there are various factions and the 'colored' Ajah system doesn't take these factions and the very real politics between them into account.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The fact is, that to do anything in the world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in and scramble through as well as we can.&quot; -Robert Cushing<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-07 19:06:27
subject: <b>2 things</b>
body:
1st: If you were an Aes Sedai, you would be white.<br />2nd: Proposal for the ajah: the Purple Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune Rides the Sun on High<br />With the Fox That Makes the Raven Fly<br />Luck his Soul, the Lightnings his Eye<br />He Snatches the Moons From Out of the Sky-by somebody i dont know</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-17 17:39:43
subject: <b>CADSUANE...? No Way!!</b>
body:
Cadsuane CAN'T be of this hidden ajah because she didn't know teh Dragon had been reborn! She says that her worst failure had been only finding out what Moiraine had been doing when it was too late! (WH)<br /><br />All that Cadsuane knew until Rand declared himself was that something was going on in Shienar, at the END of tEotW.<br /><br />So Cadsuane definitely isn't in this &quot;hidden ajah.&quot;  But it might have existed...


created: 2007-04-02 10:59:38
subject: <b>Close</b>
body:
I just wanted to tell you that in the NS, Moraine and Suian were Accepted and were attending to the Amyrlin when the Keeper had a foretelling. They later decided to look for the dragon. It could have been any Accepted in that room, so in the visions of possible futures, that must be what happened. Another Aies Sedai had heard the foretelling, not Moraine and Suian.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> There's some delight in ale and wine,<br />and some in girls with ankles fine,<br />but my delight, yes, always mine,<br />is to dance with Jak o' the Shadows. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-10 03:23:59
subject: <b>The Green Man</b>
body:
Call me a besserwisser if you want to, but I would like to point out to you that Nym was not the Green Man's name, but rather the name of his &quot;species&quot;.<br />Though I suppose Nym cannot be called a species, since they are (were, will be again) a construct.<br />But you get the point.            <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-12-26 21:24:14
subject: <b>Excellent Idea</b>
body:
Not bad. I hadn't thought about that dagger in awhile. This is an excellent use for it, cudos to you for the idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-27 03:19:58
subject: <b>Yub</b>
body:
Rand will especially need the dagger because it seems that he will, contrary to LTT, face the DO <i> alone </i> at SG.<br /><br />Moreover, apparently Rand mustn't only Travel to SG, but even has to enter the Pit of Doom, according to one of Egwene's Dreams:<br />&quot;There had been a dream of him walking down into a great hole in a black mountain, a hole filled with a reddish glare as from vast fires below.&quot; (TDR, ch.25) <br /><br />We know that normally the DO could easily crush anyone in the corridors there.<br />That makes clear why the dagger will be essential for Rand while LTT didn't need such a ter'angreal for his plan.<br /><br />This deception would also fit with the idea that Rand fakes his death before TG, so that the Shadow concentrates on his possible successor, namely Logain.


created: 2005-12-27 05:25:35
subject: <b>Nice idea...</b>
body:
I agree that Rand will have to take such a thing while going to SG. I have a feeling that this is one ter'angreal Elayne will duplicate and give to her friends. Maybe that explains why Aviendha foolishly left it with her.<br />    Incidentally, if this ter'angreal actually protects you from the DO as well, can you say his name without having a problem?


created: 2005-12-28 16:49:01
subject: <b>I have to vote against this</b>
body:
Nice theory, but I disagree.<br /><br />I believe that the Dragon's power against the Dark One is independent of any other factors. The Creator and the Pattern equipped him with great strength in the Power, and a powerful ta'veren ability. These are the only aspects which count against the Shadow.<br /><br />No other external factor can interefere with this process, especially a ter'angreal. His ability to bend the Pattern will get him to the Final Battle, and probably to win it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-29 07:24:07
subject: <b>To sidious</b>
body:
<b> I believe that the Dragon's power against the Dark One is independent of any other factors. The Creator and the Pattern equipped him with great strength in the Power, and a powerful ta'veren ability. These are the only aspects which count against the Shadow.<br /><br />No other external factor can interefere with this process, especially a ter'angreal. His ability to bend the Pattern will get him to the Final Battle, and probably to win it. </b><br /><br />Don't think that this argument is really valid.<br /><br />I believe as well that the <i> Dragon </i>, the Creator's Champion, must have something unique about himself that will make him able to defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gai'don (though IMO it's rather something really unique about his soul, than only his great OP strength or ta'veren ability, as you think).<br />Therefore only the Dragon can defeat the DO.<br /><br />Nevertheless, there are many examples which illustrate that the Pattern provides the Dragon also with several essential items (e.g. the Choedan Kal, Callandor, Dragon Banner), people (e.g. the other ta'veren, Moiraine) or certain experiences to bring him to the Last Battle. <br />I believe the blunt dagger is likely such an essential item on Rand's way to TG; thus the Pattern will provide him with it.<br /><br />Of course the dagger won't directly help Rand to win his confrontation with the DO, but simply allow that this confrontation, the Last Battle, will happen.


created: 2005-12-29 10:46:21
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
I think that sidious was on to something with the idea that Rand will not go to Shayol Ghul, protected from the DO with the dagger. In Knife of Dreams, the forsaken talk about finding Rand because they can sense in the pattern where his ta'veren self is. Even if he was masked, his ta'veren abilities could give him away. I think it possible that he might use the dagger to get past some of the small frye (though I personally don't think it will happen), but he will definitely find the DO well-prepared for his arrival (if not for his plan).


created: 2005-12-30 02:32:05
subject: <b>Duplicates</b>
body:
If Elayne manages to copy the knife possibly a 100 companions (or more) could re-seal the bore forever. At least they would/could get close enough to try while Rand does a little distracting of the DO.


created: 2006-01-02 01:13:29
subject: <b>But of course</b>
body:
Of course this knife will have a major role to play in the Last Battle, whether Rand uses it, or someone else for whatever reason. It was important enough that RJ titled the book after it, &quot;Knife of Dreams&quot;. I can't think of any other knives in the series that would seem like a dream come true, besides this one, and I don't think we've seen the last of it.


created: 2006-01-03 09:22:04
subject: <b>Some Points</b>
body:
1.Logain will have glory that does not mean he will take over from Rand. Rand knew from the Dragon Proph that the person who drew the sword from the stone a second time would follow after him. That was the Narishma (bells in hair). He went and got Callandor so Rand could use it in the battle against the Seachan.<br /><br />2. The Bore cannot be sealed forever but it must be sealed before this age ends so that it can be forgotton in the next age and then opened again, the Dragon Reborn......Snake eats its own tail...<br /><br />The Knife I feel will play a major role, it may not be Rand who needs it. I was always hoping Elayne would be holding it when Mellor or the Black Sister bumped into her in the Palace, then wander around trying to see what they walked into!<br />


created: 2006-01-03 09:45:40
subject: <b>A good theory</b>
body:
It makes sense for Rand to approach SG undetected, and RJ has introduced those great treasures for a reason.<br /><br />I particularly liked Etzel`s elaboration on the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-04 17:32:53
subject: <b>possibly...</b>
body:
...but as early as in EotW Moraine cast a spell that reportedly did the same thing. It didn't work against darkfriends (including black sisters) but it would against the DO's creatures. Thus, it's a nice ward for someone like Elyane and Rand who are both having problems channeling but not required to reach the DO. Obviously it is going to be important at some point (never show a dagger in Act 1 unless you intend to use it by Act 3) and maybe it will be used by Rand but not to sneek around SG. Who knows? Maybe he'll use it to dig the two evils out of his cut like they were splinters. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-01-07 15:30:28
subject: <b>The Big Questions remains...</b>
body:
Will it hide him from Fain? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-01-07 23:20:12
subject: <b>It shouldn't</b>
body:
Fain is like the anti-shadow, for lack of a better term<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-09 06:49:29
subject: <b>Don't go too far......</b>
body:
Luckily the exact quote from Avi was included in the theory.<br /><br />&quot;I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eyeless or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter&#8230;This knife makes a kind of warding.&quot;<br /><br />Avi merely thinks to know the use of it. Than she states that if she's right it might even work against the DO.<br /><br />If....., might.........please don't start building all kinds of theories on these two assumptions yet.<br /><br />To me it would take something more than a &quot;simple&quot; man made ter'angreal to fool the DO like that.


created: 2006-01-09 07:52:09
subject: <b>That's what I was thinking</b>
body:
So even if the dagger does hide him from the Shadow Rand might still have Padan-problems at TGD. Fun.


created: 2006-01-09 16:22:57
subject: <b>i dunno...</b>
body:
for some reason i get this awful feeling that elayne is going to have to use it to try and save her children.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 12:11:55
subject: <b>If this is true, it's an amazing artifact</b>
body:
and as such I believe there must be some downside with it.<br />Maybe it makes you feel suicidal, like Aviendha in PoD? I suspect it was the dagger that enhanced her feelings of failure and guilt, which almost made her jump of that cliff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 16:31:11
subject: <b>Maybe something to do with the book's title?</b>
body:
Has anybody figured out exactly what the Knife of Dreams is?<br />Kind of an odd name for a book.<br /><br /><br />I kind of assumed this was the knife.


created: 2006-02-18 23:19:33
subject: <b>along those lines</b>
body:
the book man's non-fiction section always occured to me as a great way to learn about the weapons and OP during the AoL. I hope they use it...


created: 2009-08-05 11:42:53
subject: <b>Elayne could use it too</b>
body:
I think Elayne has more of a use for the blunt dagger at the moment. It occured to me that, if it blocks against shadowspawn and such, perhaps those touched by the shadow will not see you either. Going down this path, I believe Elayne will make a &quot;routine&quot; trip to the BT, and Taim and/or some of his cronies will not be able to see her. this will immediately tip her off that something is wrong at the BT, and she will alert Rand that there are darkfriends amongst the Asha'man. I think there is a reason that Elayne was left with the dagger for the time being, and this is my opinion as to why.


created: 2006-01-11 05:27:10
subject: <b>Couple of points</b>
body:
I've long thought that something like this must be the case. However, there are a couple of points that have always bothered me, such as how does this uber-council maintain its membership when new Ajah Heads are raised? If the old Head tells the rest of the council the identity of the new Head, what happens in the case of a premature death i.e. Galina for example. Who tells Serancha, Jesse and the others that Tsutama is the new Red Highest?<br /><br />I agree that this Ajah Head council has existed for a long time, and that they exist so as to be the last bulwark between an incompetent Hall or Amyrlin i.e. in the case of a civil war. However, this raises the question of Romanda. She was Head of the Yellow Ajah before she went into retirement, surely she would know of this Ajah Head council and it's purpose? If so, why has she not acted?<br /><br />I like the idea that the Obstructionist Five Sitters from Salidar are acting independently on orders from their Ajah Heads in the Tower, and that the Salidar Ajah Heads are unaware of these orders. This explains a lot, such as the fact that Jordan goes to great pains to explain that the Old Guard Sitters in Salidar don't act or associate with one another...<br /><br />IIRC from the Big White Book, the very first Amyrlin ever raised was advised by a council of seven women, each from one of the founding Ajahs...could this council be the forerunner for the now secret Ajah Head council? A bit speculative, but food for thought...<br /><br />


created: 2006-01-11 11:18:44
subject: <b>The Founding Ajahs</b>
body:
I&quot;m writing this concerning the first post to this theory.  There were at least 12 founding ajahs, certainly more, when the White Tower was formed.  Someone had earlier published a theory of Cadsuane being a member of a secret ajah.<br />I&quot;m not saying that this is the case but it could be possible that the Ajah heads, or rather, an Ajah head, once becoming Ajah head, would be inducted into a smaller, &quot;informal&quot; ajah dedicated to the concept of checks and balances with the Amyrlin Seat.<br />This might explain past differences, assassinations, coup de'tats, etc. between the ajahs and the amyrlin seat.<br />There are too many sitters to keep such informaiton and decision making quiet, the smaller the number of Aes Sedai, the greater the chance for keeping secrets and, in the case of Ajah heads, making and executing decisions that might be contrary to the health of the Amyrlin Seat.<br /><br />My two cents...<br /><br />Nikolia al Farran<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 13:06:45
subject: <b>I don't think it's possible</b>
body:
As said above, it would be impossible for the ajah heads to find out the new head of an ajah.  There is also too much of a security problem should a black find out who the heads are.  <br /><br />I think there is a case for the ajah heads of the salidar sisters and the ajah heads of the tower to be working together.  Remember siuan's puzzle?  The answer is explained better elsewhere (the WOTFAQ I think), but the answer to why some sisters seem odd for the position in both the tower and Salidar is that they meld together perfectly.  There are an exact three sitters who make the requirements as sitter for the hall, and exactly three who don't.  It seems too well orchestrated for this to have happened on it's own.  I think that the sitters from Salidar and from the tower know who their counterparts are, and have been in contact.  It's possible that they have reasoned who is who in the other ajahs, but they don't know for sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 13:19:27
subject: <b>A comment on proteus2's post</b>
body:
Yeah, those things (proteus 2 mention about the problems) bothered me as well and I should probably have mentioned it already in the theory, but somehow I forgot before sending...<br /><br />Anyway, basically I agree. It is the same problem when an Ajah Head disappears or dies as the Ajah Heads would have had if they didn't know each other at all, but on a smaller scale. The difference is that in most cases there will still be 5 or 6 Ajah Heads who do know about the &quot;council&quot; and who are, as contrary to any &quot;normal&quot; Aes Sedai, actually interested in finding out who the new Head is. Furthermore they should normally not be in a rush situation to learn this, or in any particular danger if they somehow called on the wrong sister.<br /><br />Anyway, it is a problem, and I can't really see any obvious answers. One could possibly be that there are exactly one more sister in each Ajah knowing about the Ajah Heads knowing each other, but again that seems quite weak. <br /><br />Another (maybe better) is that there are things, such as a chest or book, that comes with the position of Head of the Ajah. It seems there are quite a few more or less mundane things (not all of them secrets) a new Ajah Head would have to know, that no one might be able to tell her, should her predecessor die unexpectedly. So it seems reasonable that such information is written down and made available to a new Ajah Head. Such a book could easily include a list of Ajah Heads of the other Ajahs and a note that they should be contacted. The problem being that Tsutama also would have been notified of this by now, but I'll have to think more to get any right-side up on that little matter...<br /><br />Regarding Romanda, did she actually say she had been Head of the Yellow Ajah before? I can't recall that, but don't have the book with me. Even so, it isn't likely she would know the &quot;crisis council&quot; actually had a plan, since she came straight out of retirement.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 15:38:43
subject: <b>my two cents</b>
body:
The book of knowledge idea has merit but the info in it seems like it would be too important to just write straight out. Codes can be broken and wards have their own problems. As pointed out before, a woman won;t neccessarily have any say in their successor as Ajah head so they can't just key it to specific people.  <br />I would guess at a combination of methods. Use both a code and a complex ward that a new Ajah head would need to know. They wouldn't seem in any way coneccted unless you had the book or whatever in your hands. Even then it would probably only comtain instructions on how to contact the others, not thier actuall identities. There could be a set time and place to meet if tokens are left buy, say, three heads signifying an emergency or some sign-countersign system for identifying one another.<br />This may all seem pointlessly complex but remember that the Ajahs are rather jealous of thier secrets.<br /><br />Wow. That was longer then I thought. Sorry about that. Anyway, that's what I think<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />Shadow men talk a real good game<br />Every punchline has your name<br />You cried out and no one came to you<br />~Tom Petty~<br /><br />Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 18:18:17
subject: <b>DomA and I have had a lot of discussion about the Ajah Heads for the FAQ.</b>
body:
The Ajah Heads were obvious at the beginning of the Tower, but at some stage went underground and were thenceforth known only to their Ajahs. This may be a result of the Year of 4 Amyrlins or a similar political crisis when they stepped in to the breach between the Amyrlin and Hall. And in the hostile aftermath it became prudent for them to be less visible so that  the Hall and Amyrlin did not watch them constantly or interfere with their duties to prevent them doing it again. IE they were seen as a threat by the Amyrlin and Hall and had to withdraw from view.<br /><br />The Ajah Heads have a largely administrative role, the Sitters are more like politicians. In order for there to be a smooth transference of duties, Ajah Heads may have a way of recording information (notes on policies, problems, issues and causes etc) to be handed on in case of their untimely death, and/or they may even have someone they are grooming to replace them.<br /><br />From their actions in the later books, the Ajah Heads have a way of identifying each other and a protocol on when to collaborate to step in and restore order when the Amyrlin and Hall become out of control. There may be some sort of gesture (just as the BA has a gesture) or similar way to identify each other which is told to a new incumbent or recorded for a new incumbent. <br /><br />All this is completely unknown to Sitters and Amyrlin and therefore not in the Thirteenth Depository.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 21:29:38
subject: <b>Sign of Office</b>
body:
We do not know anything concerning the ceremony of raising a new Ajah head.<br /> It might be possible that a new Head recieves a token which signifies her rank. If it is something like the coins Moiraine gave to the Boys in tEotW, the other Ajah Heads, knowing it, will be able to locate the new Ajah Head.<br />Now, either there are many such tokens or the Ajah Head is required to leave them behind on leaving the Tower (in Galinas case).<br />There might even be a particular wave which is used on any new Ajah Head by the Sitters. But that unlikely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-12 02:49:34
subject: <b>agree with Linda and DomA</b>
body:
That is pretty much the way I have interpreted what we've been told...just as the nature of the Ajahs has changed over time, so too the nature of the Ajah Head...the major change being from a public position to secret.<br /><br />In response to Nikolai al Farran, yes, there were more than 7 groups of Aes Sedai associated with the founding of the Tower, but most of these groups were assimilated into the 7 major Ajahs as part of the Tower's consolidation over channelling women. Hence the first Amyrlin's advisory council having only 7 members...<br /><br />It is interesting to note that both Egwene and Elaida have had similar advisory councils over the course of the series...


created: 2006-01-12 13:12:27
subject: <b>I like this, though there's a lot to iron out.</b>
body:
Whatever is going on now, the heads of the Red and Blue were somehow kept out of the loop.  It's possible that for the time being, the Heads of the five 'neutral' Ajahs have simply elected not to inform Tsutama of the things that Ajah Heads are normally told; and the Rebel Ajah Heads could easily be kept in the dark.<br />It's interesting that Romanda has suspected nothing as far as we know (the evidence that she was First Weaver before her retirement is in her PoV in KoD), but if she never participated in a Crisis Council herself, it might not be the first thing to come to her mind.  She at least seems to realize that _something_ is up, and that Magla had some kind of ulterior motive for behaving the way she did.<br />It's also possible that one of the Heads decided independantly that something had to be done and embarked on the delicate process of feeling out Sisters whom she thought might be the other Heads.  They should all have a pretty good idea of who the two or three most likely candidates are within each Ajah, and if they were sufficiently persistant and discreet, they'd eventually get it right.  On the other hand, I always prefer conspiracy theories to simple explanations--conspiracies are more fun.


created: 2006-01-12 17:44:40
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Not to be a wet bath, but don&#8217;t we know we get a couple of POVs where the person doesn&#8217;t know the head of the other Ajahs?  I&#8217;m thinking specifically of Galina (when going to capture Rand), Suiane and Elayne.


created: 2006-01-12 18:38:25
subject: <b>Regarding Galina knowing the Ajah heads</b>
body:
Fully possible, but I couldn't recall that being specifically mentioned by Galina. Most Ajah head discussions were later on. But not impossible. At some point I'll get ye old books out and look for it... Sleep now...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 02:04:20
subject: <b>Alviarin knows the Heads in the Tower</b>
body:
But I suspect she is the only one of the BA to know all the Heads...ironic that the only other person to know all the Ajah Heads is Head of the Black Ajah...


created: 2006-01-13 09:00:29
subject: <b>All the Ajah heads...</b>
body:
All the Ajah heads would be known to the Black Ajah - They have sisters in all of the Ajahs, and all sisters in any particular Ajah knows the identity of the head of their Ajah (with the exception of the Black Ajah, of course).<br /><br />What would stop a black sister from revealing the identity of the head of her other Ajah to other black sisters?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 20:54:02
subject: <b>Raising a new head</b>
body:
It would be on par with the rest of the traditions of the tower upon raising someone to a new status to give them something to ware publicly.  Upon reaching novice, the white dress, accepted the ring, aes sadai the shawl, keeper the staff, amarilin (sorry about the spelling) the stoll.  I am not aware of anything for being a sitter, however as someone else mentioned, that is a public political position.  It would stand to reason that the heads of the ajah's would be given an item.  This could be different for each ajah, so, the green's might give a sword, the browns a book, etc... All the other heads would have to do is get a servent or themselves to visit the likely replacements and see if they have the item, right?  Anyway, that seems the most likely way to find the other heads without giving away the secret or having to ask to many questions.<br /><br />Firemandan


created: 2006-01-16 18:49:21
subject: <b>Aielyn(sp?)</b>
body:
Sorry but it is stated in several books that the Black Ajah sisters are required to reveal the identity of their leader and &quot;eyes and ears&quot; - possibly the same would apply to any &quot;Dragon Ajah&quot; (see theory &quot;Another Hidden Ajah&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-01-17 16:01:31
subject: <b>haha</b>
body:
theres 100% no on this<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-17 16:02:59
subject: <b>oh</b>
body:
thats because only 1 person has voted. I'll go make it 50-50 hehe.. small things...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 14:11:02
subject: <b>Close, but not quite...</b>
body:
I think there is an emergency plan for the amyrlin heads. Perhaps a seven-ter'angreal system, from the AOL or the early days after breaking, which can reveal the names/faces of those others who have it. It might even have been used in the creation of the tower... and is probably mentioned in the thirteenth depository. <br /><br />Some AS high up in the ajahs may know of this ter'angreal's existence, but because of the waryness for ter'angreal, no one but the Ajah head's use it, and only in dire need/big emergency in the WT. <br /><br />This would mean that the Ajah Heads do not always know each other, but have a way of finding out, should the need arise.<br /><br />Since I find myself using the word &quot;need&quot; a lot, maybe it's T'A'R related?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-19 13:48:03
subject: <b>Vice Ajah Head</b>
body:
How about a vice ajah head. Her duty is to approach the sitters of the various other ajahs and submit a sealed note to be passed to their respective heads containing the name of the new head of her ajah.<br /><br />Bear with me: Only a vice and her ajah head know about this duty. Even the sitters know nothing more then that a sister from another ajah has given them a message to their ajah head. If a vice ever dies prematurely a new one is appointed by her ajah head. The vice explains the situation to her new ajah head upon her election. I do not have the time right now to write this ll out in detail but that is the direction.


created: 2009-01-22 06:20:44
subject: <b>they use tradition and custom</b>
body:
Aes Sedai of the modern age are sticklers for customs and traditions. When a new Ajah head is selected, a whole slew of customs and traditions are followed. And I suspect one or more of these are red herrings intended to inform other Ajah heads in a roundabout manner regarding the newcomer. Other Ajah heads would be on the lookout once one of their own number dies, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the replacement as long as they knew the signs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 11:19:24
subject: <b>me likey</b>
body:
i like the fact that you illustrated a bit of rand after the last battle.  it is similar to frodo not fitting in after his harrowing experience and i believe that you are at least 90% in your theory...v well researched and organized.<br /><br />my only problem/question/assertion is that if rand does inhabit moridin's body, then he will acquire the sa as well.  though if there is no more access to the dark one that may fade in time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 11:49:59
subject: <b>I'm a little wary.</b>
body:
All this talk of merging brings up bad memories of how The Matrix trilogy turned out.<br /><br />But I have a good measure of faith that RJ is smarter than that.  At least, if he were to do it, it would make much (MUCH) more sense.  Or at least seem like it.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 13:24:42
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
A) There is no evidence answering why or how luc and isam came together to create what we call slayer.<br /><br />B) Your theory is not consistent with RJ's internal theme of a champion for the light and a champion for the shadow facing off age after age.<br /><br />C) You seem to be trying to find a theory which fits, under which Rand survives.  Have you considered that he won't?  KoD &quot;To live, you must die.&quot;  So either he will die, and be reborn in his current body, or (broadly speaking) he will sacrifice himself so that the world will continue, and he might be born in some future age to face the shadow again.


created: 2006-01-11 14:07:19
subject: <b>I mostly agree...</b>
body:
I think and have thought for a long time that when (if) Rand lives, he will in fact inhabit Moridin's body. I have also thought about that as being the answer to Aviendha's four babies with Rand, namely that the strange thing with them is that the actual body with whom she has the children isn't Rand's (current one). But we will see I suppose...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 14:46:40
subject: <b>Moridin</b>
body:
I agree with this theory, mostly because of a passage (I can't remember which book) where Moridin is playing a game of sa'hara, and gives us his thoughts on the 'fisher' playing piece. He goes on to mention how the fisher could play for either player, ect, ect... However, the important part is when, at the end of the passage, he mentions that it is easy to win when you are playing on both sides. This is what began my suspiscions of Moridin occupying a place in Rand's mind. However, I believe that this was caused in book one where Rand first fought Ishamael, because en the Moridin passage, he hasn't met Rand in Shadar logoth yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 15:54:36
subject: <b>maybe, maybe</b>
body:
It makes a lot of sense in some ways but I don't really think he would just leave the women. I know there's all that stuff about standing over his body but that doesn't mean they don't figure it out at some point. Besides, with the Last Battle over, his main reason for trying to keep them away is gone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />Shadow men talk a real good game<br />Every punchline has your name<br />You cried out and no one came to you<br />~Tom Petty~<br /><br />Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 16:47:12
subject: <b>To Silencer</b>
body:
Why do we have to know how they merge for it to happen? Also after this age there wil be no more light vs. Dark thing because the dark one will be gone. its the LAST battle. Besides if Rand went into Morridin's body it would be a great take on gd vs. bad. An internal struggle for who lives on in the body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-11 17:06:14
subject: <b>missing some things</b>
body:
This whole thing is based on the fact that Isam and Luc are one. However, neither can channel (pretty sure on that), and yet Rand and Moridin are joined by using balefire using the OP and the TP. Then, there is the fact that his women are still gonna be around afterward. However, Rand has like a million bonds on his body. I would highly doubt that in a new body all of those bonds would last. I base this on the fact that a warder would not feel his aes sedai being shielded, but would feel their emotional reaction. It is the body, not the soul, that gets bonded. His women would freak and perhaps die before Rand could let them know that he was still alive.<br /><br />To Demosthenes: I don't think that the sha'rah comment about playing both sides means that he'll join with the dragon. He's dedicated to the shadow, more than anyone. I personally think that he is a nihilist, and wants the DO to destroy the wheel, not just remake it in his image.


created: 2006-01-12 16:24:36
subject: <b>i like most of it</b>
body:
im not convinced that its all true, but you've definitely made a few <i>very</i> good points.<br /><br />also very well thought out, researched etc. good job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-12 17:07:54
subject: <b>Me Likes!!!!</b>
body:
Makes me think of, among other things, the video game Deus Ex. In that game, there are 3 AI. 1 is Daedalus, the others Icarus and Helios. <br /><br />About those characters:<br />Daedalus<br /><br />The AI that would later be known as Daedalus was conceived by the brilliant mind of Morgan Everett, the current leader of Adam Weishaupt's Illuminati. Everett conceived the program that would eventually create Daedalus, as a way to create the near perfect advisor, with the ability to shift through gigantic amounts of data, and through that predict disasters, both natural and man-made, and to make plans to prevent them, which the Illuminati could then choose to either ignore or execute.<br /><br />Daedalus was never meant to have an actual sentience or self-awareness, and was only to give advice - not to do anything itself. Everett's protege Bob Page, however, saw Daedalus as the means to keep tabs on and control the huge amounts of electronic information that filtered though the Internet and other electronic media, a feat that both the Illuminati, and its splinter cell, Majestic-12, that Page controlled, had not been able to pull off.<br /><br />Page's ideas for Daedalus' reconfiguration did not fly totally under the radar, as the entire project became linked, logically enough, to the creation of the Echelon 4's replacement. Before the Illuminati and MJ-12 could put a stop to it, a few rumours filtered though to the various conspiracy theorist groups on the Internet. Meanwhile, Page created the Daedalus, which soon after, without even alerting Page that he had succeeded, fled into the Internet and began to become self-aware. Page originally intended Daedalus as a tool to keep track of any developments that would threaten MJ-12, but this backfired when its pattern-matching code classified MJ-12 in the same category as the groups it was supposed to find and monitor.<br /><br />After having sorted though much of the information on the Net, Daedalus found that the world was on the verge of collapse. Still retaining some of the basic parameters that Everett had encoded in the basic template, Daedalus began to ponder how it was going to save the world from itself, and not least MJ-12, which it classified as a terrorist organisation due to its disregard for people in its quest for world domination.<br /><br />Daedalus was not designed to reside in one major mainframe or hub, but rather to exist simultaneously as a line of code or two on every single device connected to the Internet, not unlike the distributed computing of today. This not only made Daedalus almost impossible to trace, but also gave it huge amounts of processing power. This is also eerily evident by the inclusion of the word Daedalus in the code at the bottom of every computer terminal in the game.<br /><br />Morgan Everett: &quot;There's a blip of Daedalus' code running on every communications device on the planet.&quot;<br /><br />Daedalus eventually found Paul Denton to help him, whom it later abandoned in favour of his brother JC, when Paul became unable to continue the fight against MJ-12. In the end Daedalus was tricked into merging with his MJ-12 friendly, and slightly crazed, &quot;brother&quot; Icarus, that Page had made as a replacement, creating the AI Helios.<br /><br />Icarus:<br /><br />Icarus<br /><br />Icarus was created by Bob Page (head of Majestic-12) as a replacement for Daedalus, which had escaped from his control, and has similar functions to its predecessor. Icarus is one of the game's antagonists; it is used by MJ-12 to track the movements and activities of the main character, JC Denton, after he escapes from a holding cell in the secret MJ-12 Headquarters on Liberty Island. JC Denton has brief contact with Icarus throughout the game; these involve taunts, warnings, questions and misinformation received as voice messages, phone calls, and posted messages on public computer terminals. Icarus eventually merges with the Daedalus AI to become Helios.<br /><br />Helios:<br /><br />Helios<br /><br />Helios is an A.I. that was created when the artificial intelligences Icarus and Daedalus merged. Bob Page knew the merge would happen, and planned to merge himself with the AI, becoming a biological component of it. He was however unable to control Helios, which itself wanted to control the world as a benevolent dictator, citing history as evidence that humanity will inevitably destroy itself if left on its own. Helios selects JC Denton instead as its biological component, believing that Denton could provide the necessary ability to understand humans that a benevolent dictator would need to rule effectively. The player of Deus Ex could choose to help Helios, or choose one of the other two endings of the game.<br /><br />Even before the ending is chosen however, Helios begins to assert its influence by interfacing with the Aquinas system located in Area 51 which surveys the entirety of the Internet. In Hong Kong Helios shuts down power to all government buildings, disables the Triads electronically and orders free flow of traffic to begin anew.<br /><br /><br />Some of this seems to be alike to this situation...<br /><br />More of this game can be found on, among other places, Wikipedia.


created: 2006-01-12 17:38:22
subject: <b>Disgree - Inconsistent with recurring theme</b>
body:
I like the logic and the theory, but I completely disagree.  As mentioned above, RJ has a theme of &#8220;a champion for the light and a champion for the shadow facing off age after age&#8221;.  This is consistent with Moridin&#8217;s beliefs and the opening paragraph made in Chapter 1 of every single book. I have to believe that if you axe Moridin by merging him with Rand, you effectively remove him from the wheel by subjugating his personality to Rands. This doesn&#8217;t jive with the recurring theme.<br /><br />Secondly, as also mentioned above, you assume Rand survives. &quot;To live, you must die.&quot; There are a couple of scenarios that I can envision this unfolding the end with Rand remaining dead. The one I&#8217;m fondest of is:  Rand must die to save his unborn children and the rest of the world. By sacrificing himself, he can still live through his children.


created: 2006-01-12 18:10:56
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
Very well put together, wish you could have given an explanation on alivias role though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 03:46:39
subject: <b>Soul transfer</b>
body:
If the Dark One can save the soul of a forsaken and transfer it into a new body then surely the creator could do the same. <br />After the last battle, perhaps the Creator rewards Rand with a new body.<br />On to the warder bond.<br />I think the fact that the three women are all bonded will lessen the impact to them. However Alanna and others have all lost Warders and survived. It is the warders who usually die not the holder of the bond. They will be alive and Rand will come to them in his new form. <br />I also had thoughts on the unusual situation with Aviendha, Min and Elayne. <br />The bonding used a modification of the first-sister ritual. Perhaps it is Min and Elayne(who we know is having twins) that are pregnant (she can't foretell herself) as the Aiel  can have daughters that are not of their body.<br /><br />As to Alivia does anyone think its coincidence that there's a male a'dam and Rand is helped to die by a Seanchan. I think this will be used in the final battle.<br /><br />Sorry if this seems rambling but I think best when brain storming!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 10:57:49
subject: <b>Champions of Light and Shadow is not RJ's theme.</b>
body:
This was a THEORY posited by ISHAMAEL.  There is no evidence for it outside of Ishamael's delusions, and Jordan has already said in interviews that believing anything Ishamael says is foolish.<br /><br />Now, back to the main discussion: I agree that Rand will somehow defeat Moridin by merging with him, and I also like the idea of Rand faking his death by hiding in someone else's body.  I would just question the whole Luc/Isam connection.  As other people have said, their bond is probably very different from the Rand/Moridin bond, and while I think that we're going to learn more about how those two knuckleheads got stuck together, I don't think we'll ever know the precise mechanics of it.


created: 2006-01-13 18:36:35
subject: <b>One thing</b>
body:
One thing that may have been over looked.  I like this theory a lot.  It makes sense.  But maybe the vision of Rand with bandages on his eyes, as well as the Fisher, is an allusion to Rand after they merge.  Being in Moridin's he will be blind because of the saa.  The flames in Ishamael's eyes could have been generated by the One Power, meaning his eyes are really just gaping sockets after so much saa use (see the end of TDR).  Then when Rand takes over the body, they are a merging of Shadow and Light (i.e. The Fisher, who can be both sides) and Rand will need bandages over his eyes to cover the sockets.


created: 2006-01-16 11:06:04
subject: <b>bah.</b>
body:
Quote from Youker: &quot;This was a THEORY posited by ISHAMAEL. There is no evidence for it outside of Ishamael's delusions&quot;<br /><br />I disagree. The theory posited by Ishamael is consistent with the opening paragraph in Chapter 1 of EVERY book. It is also consistent with Herid Fel's interpetations. In LOC, Ch18, Rand visits with Herid who tells him that somehow the Dark One's prison will eventually be restored (completing the Wheel of Time).<br /><br />For crying out loud, the name of the series if &quot;Wheel of Time.&quot;  I think it's not just a theory, but of paramount importance that what happens during this age has happned in a previous age and will happen in a future age.<br /><br />Personally, I think this theory--that they will merge--is improbable because I believe this two antognists must exist during future tunrings of the wheel to replay the old battle again. If they merge, I think this severely taints this concept and I would be extremely disappointed if Jordan took such a hokey and overplayed approach.<br /><br />SID67


created: 2006-01-17 08:35:02
subject: <b>The wheel</b>
body:
Tolkien used a similair premise of ages being repeated but this was broken by Frodo and Sam. <br />Like any spoked wheel howeverI dare say it CAN be broken. Rand will survive his battle with the dark one. There's too many dreams and foretellings for there to be any other outcome.<br />If things don't change they stay the same. Why write a series of books just to say at the end of the series, wait another six turns of the wheel and the story will happen exactly as it has here. I can't see that.<br />This is the end of the dark one that is coming. <br />Rand is the Dragon Reborn.<br />Lews Therin is the Dragon.<br />Lews Therins soul dies. Moridin dies. All the forskaen die or are stilled/captured. Rand Lives. That's how I see it.<br />Jordan says he knows the end of the books. Any bets on three women and a man in a boat???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-17 14:38:41
subject: <b>Almost a Paradox</b>
body:
There is almost a paradox about how Rand will end up before/during/after the last battle. There seems to be little doubt that Rand will die at the last battle, yet at the same time there is little doubt that he will survive. There are several possibilities from a Rand-Moridin fusion, to Rand simply &quot;coming alive.&quot; The point is that something will happen to rand when he is fighting [insert DO name here] that will effect his death and rebirth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-20 01:53:37
subject: <b>I always had a feeling</b>
body:
(&amp; it's probably been said before) that what Rand learned beyond the red doorframe &quot;To live you must die&quot; meant that if he died he would be reborn again (&amp; so live) but it wouldn't actually be the &quot;Last Battle&quot; but if he survived he wouldn't ever be reborn again and it would actually be the last battle.<br />Seeing it written out there makes me less confident in it, though.


created: 2006-02-02 19:38:23
subject: <b>i doubt it</b>
body:
possible but highly probable. interesting idea but i just dont buy it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder<br />We danced among the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 22:48:18
subject: <b>we can tell....</b>
body:
that things always dont happen Exactly the same there are refrences to time when the dr sided with the do and times when the do defaeted the dr. i think the wot keeps turning till it finds the appropriate outcome then it stops. think about it, what is the point of a wheel? to get somewhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Fuer grissa ost Drauka <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-10 22:38:21
subject: <b>convinced</b>
body:
After reading some other things, I've decided that you have a great idea with some good justification. I think it was the Luc/Isam merge that turned me off from this theory. I think the Rand/LTT situation works better. Other than that, I officially agree


created: 2006-02-14 02:32:22
subject: <b>The Three Women and the Man in the boat</b>
body:
While reading a post above, it came to my mind that maybe the dead man in the boat isn't Rand.  Probably wrong, and I hope I am wrong, but it would seem feasiable if it was one of our main characters, Perrin, Mat, maybe Thom.  It was just a thought that crossed my mind.


created: 2006-04-01 01:44:33
subject: <b>One Objection</b>
body:
The only objection I have to this theory is that the author mentions that Rand and Moridin are nearly equal in their strength in the power, implying that their relative strengths will be reversed when, and if, they switch bodies. It is my opinion that strength in the Power is liked to the soul of the person, not the body. For example, when Balthamel was placed into a woman's body and renamed A'ran'gar, he still channeled Saidin with the same strength, not Saidar, even though he was biologically female. This could only be possible if 1) strength in the Power is tied to the soul, and 2) gender is in some way tied to the soul as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He therefore: 'Be consoled;it is right meet<br />I do my duty ere I quit this spot;<br />Justice requires it, reverence stays my feet.'&quot;<br />-Emperor Trajan<br />Divine Comedy, Purgatory, Canto X, lines 91-93</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-02 15:52:37
subject: <b>third person</b>
body:
i remember from a previous book that LTT said something like how many will we three kill before the end? could the three be rand Ltt and mordin? and could Ltt know from some past life in a previous turning of the wheel when he was in the heros head or is he doing some weird finn thing to see the future. just something to think on


created: 2006-12-18 19:27:14
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree 100% with Darroncullen about the fact that it will not repeat after this.<br /><br />Yes, &quot;ages come and go,&quot; but that's the premise for setting up this story. If RJ writes 10,000 pages of fiction, and his only ending is &quot;Uh, ditto on this story in a few thousand years.&quot; I will be VERY disappointed. I don't think his editors/publishers will agree with that sort of ending, and they shouldn't. They live in the real world, not Randland. It's not taboo for them to force him to make an END to this.<br /><br />Besides, the definition of RJ's writing is the plot twists. What's the current plot right now (obviously assuming the Forsaken all fail at their plans to kill Rand/stop him from fighting the DO)? Rand goes to Final Battle, lots of people die, some huge amounts of the power are wielded, and eventually the Dark One is sealed out of the pattern for another Age and the Dragon Reborn dies in the process, then is resurrected a few ages later.<br /><br />If that's so, what's the point of developing the Steamwagon and gunpowder and cannons and all that? The way I see it, RJ develops some kind FINAL final battle, Moridin/LTT die, Dark One &quot;dies&quot; forever, all the Power is gone forever, and the world develops into our current world, w/ technology and stuff. Either that or Dark One dies, Rand's alter egos do too, and they return the world to the Age of Legends.<br /><br />Have you ever considered that Rand's 2 deaths may be his alter ego's? One is &quot;bad&quot; and one is &quot;good,&quot; so I think it could fit.<br />


created: 2007-04-18 10:51:51
subject: <b>one moves in.. one moves out .. .. WOT Real Estate</b>
body:
just a quick note.  I find it difficult to believe that Rand will somehow miraculously come alive again after his body is killed.  I think RJ would have to do some serious fast talking to set that up and make it believable in just one book.   The bond with Moridin/Ishy is clearly relevant else it wouldn't be there in the first place.   <br />I think Rand switching bodies is entirely possible, but I dont think this merging means rand's soul would merge with ishy's ( as some other comments here suggest).  I believe that somehow in they're fight there will be a contest of wills, rand will win and ishy's soul will either be given the boot, or put in Rand's beat up body, but either way will be toast. ready to be born again to cause mayhem  that way champion of light  vs champion of evil can still occur in some future age.  <br />I know the idea of this being the LAST battle and ending of the turning of wheel for good is popular, but I just dont see it happening.  I personally like the idea of the wheel continuing on, (yes and repeating ) leaves lots of room for future spin off books adventures in other ages, rounds (wheel.. get it) it all off nicely.  <br />I also dont think that it makes the story pointless.... RJ is giving us window's view into whole new world. (or a taste of just one particularly juicy piece of the pie) If his world is real, he's choosing a particular part to write about cause its a damn good yarn. <br />you could almost imagine some deep male commentary voice as the last seen fades out &quot;and so are the days of our lives&quot;.


created: 2006-01-12 10:36:19
subject: <b>I think he has to stay with Mat</b>
body:
Though your theory certainly makes logical sense.  If we knew how long it would take for Mat and co to save Moiraine, we might know whether there would be time for Jain to help save her and then get to Lan.  IF there is time, I agree that your theory is possible.  He may come right out of the tower and go straight to the Blight... who knows what orders Mo might have the instant she gets free.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Siddy's Green<br /><font color="gray">*wears the bowtie*</font><br /><br /><font color="teal"><i>Obama - &quot;Vote for me, I'm Barack Obama&quot;<br />McCain - &quot;Vote for me, I'm not Barack Obama&quot;</i></font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-12 11:03:32
subject: <b>Logical, but unlikely</b>
body:
It would seem that Jain a.k.a. Noal would go off to help his home, but didn't he ask to be the 'third person' for Thom and Mat's venture into the tower of Ghenje? Even if he doesn't, I just can't see him leaving off. He has become highly integrated with Mat's Ta'veren adventure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-12 17:33:03
subject: <b>unlikely</b>
body:
tho it wud make sense<br /><br />ther isnt enough time for him to go with mat and then go to the border, wer he wud serve as a nobody. its not lyk moiraine can Travel yet.


created: 2006-01-12 23:45:02
subject: <b>It's a good idea.</b>
body:
I agree with the others, I don't know how he would get there in time, but if he could I think it would be likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 00:49:09
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
He's is Mat's man to the end. But who knows where the Prince of Raven's path will lead?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-13 08:46:28
subject: <b>Save Moiraine Then Go to Lan</b>
body:
Its very possible after helping to save Moiraine that Moiraine and Lan will be reunited soon thereafter, or at least at the point of some key battle, etc. Assuming Noal accompanies Moiraine until she reaches Lan, he could very well stand with Lan from that point forward.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Craig &quot;Gopher&quot; Richardson<br />mailto:cdrgopher@aol.com<br />http://www.bjorkclub.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-16 10:49:31
subject: <b>possible</b>
body:
It's possible, but Lan will be campaiging.<br />What will NoalJain do? Stab trollocs with his rusted daggers? Maybe he'll play part in the Isam ordeal tho.


created: 2006-01-17 14:13:28
subject: <b>Sorry but this isn't worth the theorypost</b>
body:
There is no substance to this post.  There used to be a time when theorypost admins were much more judicious about their theory selections.


created: 2006-01-19 10:49:31
subject: <b>Ishamael</b>
body:
Ishamael supposedly used Noal/Jain Charin because in book one Ishamael aka disguised as the DO, said he used him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-22 19:34:06
subject: <b>I don't think you guys have thought it through...</b>
body:
Just my opinion, but saying staying with Mat will not allow Noal enough time to join Lan is incorrect.<br /><br />Remember, Lan has to ride across the length or the Borderlands, and he rides to the Last Battle.<br /><br />Remember, Matt blew the Horn of Valere, he must be at the Last Battle. Also, he's the best Captain the Light has. <br /><br />Both Mat and Lan will be at the Last Battle, there will be time. (Rand has to learn of Moiraine's rescue as well, and HE can certainly travel). He may even learn of the attempt before it is made and have Aes Sedai or Ash'man waiting to whisk them away afterwards (though I think it unlikely).<br /><br />The question is, will Noal survive to be there? I picture some Ingtaresque act of redemption to get Matt, Thom and Mo free.<br />


created: 2006-02-04 22:18:56
subject: <b>How do we know mo cant travel........</b>
body:
she saw alot of what wud happen if certain things happened(that only  three must come to save her...)maybve she knew she wud have to get Noal/Jain to Lan and get mat to whreever and one of her wishes was the knowledge of how to travel(or she could have wished to learn what she must do to win the last battle)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Fuer grissa ost Drauka <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-02 19:08:38
subject: <b>I have to say Jain won't be joining...he has to help save Moiraine...</b>
body:
Sorry,<br /><br />if the others already posted this..sorry....I have to say that Jain/Noal can't help..he has to help Mat save Moiraine...after all in KoD, Pager 261, he asked to be the 3rd man to help save her and good Mat accepted his offer....so. no. Jain/Noal will be off in another dimension...hopefully he'll be back in time to join up...but not til after the rescue of Moiraine..which is a forgone conclusion...cuz Matt is a guaranteed success. He is a main character and the only one who can blow the Horn of Valere....so matt will come out of it alive. As for the others, maybe not. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2006-03-24 06:55:44
subject: <b>The Tower of Ghenje and Isam</b>
body:
I agree with two of the things said above, and I'll put them together:<br /><br />1. Noal will not make it out of the ToG.<br /><br />2. Noal will settle Isam.<br /><br />I believe Noal will redeem himself by sacraficing himself in the Tower of Ghenji to kill the betrayer of Malkier, Isam.


created: 2006-07-18 13:55:33
subject: <b>Noal. Mo and Isam/Luc</b>
body:
First off, to the people who mention Mat as having to be at the last battle b/c of the Horn. Remember that since his death by Rahvin he may well no longer be tied to the Horn. In any case I do agree that he will be at the last battle but not necessarily b/c of the Horn. It would be funny if little old Tuon decided to ride forth with him (leading the forces of the Seanchen) and blow it herself but I digress...<br /><br />I think that Noal will enter the Tower with Mat and Thom. They will rescue Mo and leave the Tower to be confronted by good old Isam/Luc who will be waiting outside. Remember that Isam/Luc has ben to the Tower before with Perrin. In fact, Isam/Luc may well be laying in ambush inside the Tower since he seems to know a way inside and has been there before. It would be poetic for him to kill/be killed by Noal and Mo. Isam/Luc is a Malkieri and has a history of sorts with Noal (they may also have met before in the Waste as both were there at the same time back in the fall of Malkier). As well Mo is related on some level with Isam/Luc through the whole Royal family blood line as well as some symbolic feud with him through her relationship with Lan. Isam/Luc will kill Noal, Mo will then kill Isam/Luc avenging both Noal and her former Warder Lan who is off wandering around the borderlands.


created: 2006-12-18 19:38:33
subject: <b>i dunno</b>
body:
I dunno, his later comments about &quot;that tops anything Jain ever did or I ever did.&quot; have almost changed my mind about him being Jain. Maybe he just loved Jain's wife as a sisteror even as a woman and him leaving her was a big strike against him. He seems to talk about them as 2 seperate people way too easy in the second conversation.<br /><br />And if he was Jain and wanted to hide it, wouldn't he have avoided talking about Jain a second time??<br /><br />I am still 90% convinced it's him, I was before KoD even came out, but the second exchange sorta casts that 10% doubt on me. Maybe RJ was trying to do exactly that, disguise his revelation earlier in the book. (Why not just edit that part then though?)<br /><br />Meh, it's all still up in the air to me. I think Thom/Moraine wil lbe able to be together for a while though, and Mat obviously won't die (that tripod of ta'veren, remember?), so it's either Noal or nobody in the ToG.


created: 2009-03-22 11:29:46
subject: <b>Tai'shar Malkier!</b>
body:
Theories, theories, theories. Among RJ's most definable talents as an author are the &quot;hidden yet obvious&quot; plot foreshadowings he does so well. <br /><br />1. In TEOTW, in the Prologue no less, Ishamael bosts of how he turned Farstrider to the Shadow's uses.<br />2. It was Jain who captured Cowan Fairheart for his betrayal of Malkier's true king, Lan's father<br />3. When Moiraine is recovered from the TOG, we might find there is something left of the bond, which wasn't truly &quot;broken&quot;, but completely blocked because the normal portal through the Rhuidean doorway was destroyed.<br />4. Nynaeve's ONLY motivation for getting into this whole mess was to rescue the Emond's Field folk from the &quot;evil&quot; Moiraine Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Total poetic justice for Nynaeve to fight alongside Lan AND Moiraine in the future. Moiraine will go aid her warder in his life's war, now that her influence has been subsumed by Cadsuane's as far as Rand is concerned. I suspect something about memories in the TOG will occur that clears up Ishamael's clouding of Jain's mind, and once he remembers, he will have some critical bit of information to aid Malkier, and along the way, to defeat Luc/Isam, which by the way ALSO aids Malkier, completing his triumph over those responsible for the Blight swallowing Malkier.<br /><br />So basically, I've always been down with this particular theory. Jain is there for more than just having Mat's six re: the Gholam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 04:59:00
subject: <b>The DO wins....</b>
body:
And he destroys time, unravels the Pattern that the Wheel of Time creates (as we've seen starting to happen in KoD). Surely nothing could survive this? The Pattern is the universe, if he destroys that, then nothing can live after. I don't know why the DO would want to destroy everything, power is useless without people to power over, but surely that will happen.<br />But then he is the DO, he is anti-life, so i'm pretty sure he'll kill all his servants that have helped him get free. He wants death for all life.


created: 2006-01-18 07:34:38
subject: <b>nice..</b>
body:
completly agrees wif u. would like to add some points thou <br />DO would most prob destroy the whole pattern because it is made by the creator who we know that the DO hates and move on to other worlds to do the same<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kill a Trolloc a day to keep the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Dark One<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> at bay</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 10:47:03
subject: <b>If the DO is the winner</b>
body:
he wouldn't care what happens to his servants.  He's destroying the wheel of time, and ending the world.  Armageddon.  The End.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 11:48:35
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I also think that the DO is a scheming SOB. He dosen't want a World with humans, he want's to unravel time and the patte.<br /><br />Nice theory


created: 2006-01-18 11:49:52
subject: <b>Nihilism</b>
body:
It seems to me that Ishy has at least figured out that the Dark One winning means the end of time, and a &quot;new&quot; universe made by him, rather than following the Creator's design.  Unlike the other Forsaken, Moridin actually seems to know what he's working for, not immortality and power, but the complete destruction of everything.  I get the feeling the others don't know this, and would be terrified if they did, and would most likely abandon the Dark One.  I don't think they'd come back to the Light, since they are, after all, selfish evil people.  Right now it's just a case of the idealistic nihilists, Shai'tan and Ishy, expoiting those who are simply evil.  I don't really think that the Dark One winning and destroying time and creation would destroy him as well, rather, it's like Armageddon in Christian mythology.  The universe may no longer exist, but Yahweh and heaven, and possibly hell, are still there, being outside our plane of existence.  Perhaps, if things go according to his plan, Shai'tan could displace the Creator, and there would be a new big bang, but the resulting universe would be one we would be unable to even understand, or if we could, not one we'd want to.


created: 2006-01-18 13:40:20
subject: <b>As others have said -</b>
body:
Shai'tan will completely destroy this world. According to cateschism, he will then recreate it in his image - whatever that may be, it likely won't ressemble what it is now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 14:25:27
subject: <b>DO victory</b>
body:
There was even a quote in one of the books that the DO wants to remake the world in the image of the shadow. That wraps it up quite nicely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 19:37:50
subject: <b>Ishy is Buddha</b>
body:
Well, that's a ridiculous thing to say, but he is the only one who understands the DO, and it seems like he wants to end the cycle of death and rebirth by helping to break the Wheel.  Everyone else wants the Wheel and their souls to continue forever.  My idea is that Ishy wants to escape the cycle, perhaps he finds an eternity without possibility of historical change and progress objectionable, which is a unique view in the WoT.


created: 2006-01-18 21:20:35
subject: <b>The Wheel of Time being Broken?</b>
body:
I don't care how many times people say it, the Wheel of Time won't be broken.<br /><br />Stop and think about it.  Think about what Ishy's been saying all along.  About how he and the Dragon have fought an infinite number of times.<br /><br />So the Dark and the Light have squared off in this manner for infinity (time's a wheel, so everything repeats forever, backwards and forwards).  So if the Dark One hasn't broken the Wheel of Time yet, why should he do it now?  One time can be different than a hundred times, or a thousand, but an infinite number?<br /><br />And if you believe Ishy (which Rand doesn't), in regards to the Dragon fighting for the Shadow, if he fights for the Shadow then the Shadow would certainly have a better chance of winning than fighting against him.<br /><br />The point is, if the Dark One wins (if its possible), then things will be very bad, but the Wheel of Time will go on, and eventually things will get better, and he'll lose.<br /><br />Or alternatively, he will just never win, and this whole thing is like some kind of cruel game that the Creator plays on the DO - an impossible task, stone rolling back down the hill sorta thing.


created: 2006-01-18 22:42:17
subject: <b>Breaking the Wheel</b>
body:
Thanks for all the comments!  I'm glad this theory has sparked some discussion.<br /><br />I agree with whiskysipper that there's no chance the Wheel of Time will actually be broken at the end of this series.  Other theorists at wotmania have pointed out some pretty convincing evidence that the Light will be victorious--particularly the occasional quotes from the Fourth Age at the beginning and end of some of the books, and some of the Fortellings that predict events after the Last Battle.  And anyway, having the DO win would be an awfully depressing conclusion to the books.<br /><br />That being said, the Forsaken evidently believe that the Dark One could (and will) win, otherwise they wouldn't be fighting for him.  What I was trying to point out in my theory was that victory for the DO wouldn't necessarily be good for the Forsaken and Darkfriends.<br /><br />The comments by rabidweasel and Perrin_is_insane are right on the mark.  Ishamael/Moridin seems to have a good idea of what the DO really wants: destruction of the world, or at least remaking it to such a degree that it would be unrecognizable.  The information about Elan Morin Tedronai from The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time indicates that he might have been some sort of nihilistic philospher.  He wrote books entitled &quot;Reality and the Absence of Meaning&quot; and the &quot;Disassembly of Reason,&quot; so he may have believed (even before the Bore was opened) that life was meaningless and human existence has no enduring moral value.  The observation by Perrin_is_insane that Ishamael is a sort of Buddha figure is, I think, a very clever point.  If Elan Morin believed that life amounted to nothing more than meaningless suffering, a cycle of birth, death, and rebirth that continued endlessly, then what would he see as the one real possibility of ultimate escape and redemption?  Breaking the Wheel.  Elan Morin may have viewed the DO as the savior of humanity who would free us from imprisonment in an imperfect world.  Victory for the DO would mean enforced Nirvana--escape from wordly suffering--for everyone caught in the Wheel.<br /><br />But Ishamael seems to be the only one who realizes this.  The other Forsaken see the DO not as the destroyer of the world, but as an ally who will help them gain immortality and power in this world.<br /><br />I find this a bit strange.  It's been emphasized over and over that the Forsaken don't trust anyone, care about nothing except their own interests, and are generally quite intelligent and calculating.  Shouldn't they recognize that the DO is only using them to break free from his prison, and that if he does, they'll lose whatever leverage over him that they have?  He'll be free to discard all of his human servants as soon as they are no longer useful.  The Forsaken should be able to predict this, and yet we don't see them ever seriously questioning their loyalty to the DO.<br /><br />The only explanation I can come up with is that the Forsaken are so terrified of the DO's power that they can't even contemplate betraying him.  Or, maybe communing with the DO at Shayol Ghul allows him to shape the minds of his followers and make them absolutely loyal.  Lanfear commented at one point that only those who have stood in the Pit of Doom and heard the DO's voice can understand his full power.  It sounds like maybe the DO can reach directly into the minds of those in the Pit of Doom and shape them, like Padan Fain, to his own purposes.<br /><br />What do you guys think?


created: 2006-01-23 10:26:39
subject: <b>i voted yes...</b>
body:
because I think that the DO breaks free he will not need the help of others, and therefore not bound to his promises. But will he feel threatened by them? I am not sure. I always figured that his power would be absolute upon his escape. When LTT and the Companions sealed the bore, the DO was still somewhat bound. I think your theory is really good though, and has a lot of merit<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-25 16:24:23
subject: <b>mmm...</b>
body:
I don't have the books with me, but I'm reasonably certain that there are quotes from Ishy or another Forsaken which states that in the past, the DO has won the Final Battle in past ages. Whether this alludes to him completely destroying the Wheel or something else entirely, I don't believe the DO means to bring about utter destruction without a recreation of some sort.<br /><br />


created: 2006-09-15 22:09:11
subject: <b>It's all a game</b>
body:
Everything being a game set in motion by The Creator, why not? No seriously, The DO is, as said by Verin, paradox, the ender of reason and logic. Since he Pattern is is his prison, would it not have to be destroyed completely for him to escape comletely? He sais he will remake it &quot;in his image&quot;. He is The Lord of the grave. So &quot;in his image&quot; could very well mean that everything will be dead, meaning the complete destruction of the world. <br />Ishamael knows of all this, and he willingly follows The DO, because he is the champion of the DO, meant to oppose The Dragon whe that time comes. That is why he exist, thus he has no problem working towards ultimate oblivion. The other Forsaken are only &quot;regular&quot; humans though, so they must be kept in the dark, for otherwise they nor anyone, would not serve The DO.


created: 2007-01-30 17:04:42
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I think that if the DO is freed, it will only be a beginning of a much bigger war like the end of the AOL.<br /><br /><br />I don't how long that war last, but the bore was drill, thus freeing the DO then  major war took place with LTT the dragon.<br /><br />So when the seal guard him no more, the final countdown will take place, in that time humanity will have X time to seal him off or be ...destroy. and that can be done even without the light champion, it is just a huge asset in the war i view him as the queen in the chess game not the king.<br /><br />but anyway, if the DO break completly free, i believe that he cannot destroyed the creator as the creator cannot destroy him. So i believe he will remake the wolrd in his image with the creator in his prison, and thus the cyrcle will continue, but this time humanity would have to bore a whole in the paterne to free the creator.<br /><br />As ishy is the DO champion, and was one of bore driller i think, the dragon would bore a hole and freed the creator.<br /><br />I for one do not thinks that the creator can interact with the world on a direct touch, only threw the world of dream maybe.... and threw the one power.... i also believe that he can't interven not because he does not want too, but because he can't, let call that cosmic rule.<br /><br />So if the DO break free, and place the creator in his prison, a void in the place of power would exist. And  as a simple physic rule every empty place will try to be fill with something, thus the only entity BIG enought to fill the space is the DO.<br /><br />and  in all his paradox, the DO will be struk and hand bound. and not be able to bring all the change he want to the world and thus the wheel and time continu.<br /><br />and the war between light and shadow continue ever lasting. Just this time it is the other way around....<br /><br />I'll call that the last joke of the creator!!!!


created: 2007-06-10 01:31:36
subject: <b>If the Shadow wins</b>
body:
It would be possible that if the DO wins he is able to make the world the way he likes it but after that he can't do anything more meaning that the creater can then take the world back from him by getting lightfirends??? Generally the same as what is happening now but with the creator out of time and DO as the ruler.


created: 2007-09-17 20:44:37
subject: <b>Good one!!</b>
body:
I like this. One of the best theories I've read on here<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> I'm not strange. I'm normal. Everyone else is strange. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Oosta! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-18 16:19:57
subject: <b>Ishamael is not nuts. Just misunderstood</b>
body:
I&#180;ll do these by paragraphs, which will try to establish the basis for the conclusions<br /><br />-Premise: the Creator created Randland/the Patternverse mainly to get rid of the DO, as the lines about the wheel being the DO's prison seem to suggest.<br /><br />- Human status in the Prison: Given that premise, it seems likely that the purpose of having sentient races in it fits mainly a caretaker, or maybe immune system, role. This possibility fits the facts, as the books say that the history of the Wheel is basically that of patching and repatching the Bore.<br /><br />- The DO&#180;s morality, part one: The DO doesn&#180;t particularily hate people per se. His main purpose is to break free, or at least his conversation with Demandred  seems to point towards that direction(&quot;EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE<br />OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and&#8212; could it be frustration? An instant only.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />True, this doesn&#180;t necessarily mean that he doesn&#180;t get a kick out of mischief, but his main purpose is to break out of his prison through any means necessary, just like the Creator&#180;s main purpose in creating Randland was to lock him in. He is more ruthless than evilness incarnate.<br /><br />- The DO's morality, part two: demands absolute loyalty, and  punishes violations harshly (Mesaana comes to mind. A rape as punishment for avoiding a summons seems rather harsh). On the other hand, most religions present their starring deities doing the same. And the DO does seem to stick out for his followers, granting them priviledges, and saving them from destruction (Ishamael) even when they are not particularily competent (Bathamel, Aginor) or loyal (Lanfear, Morgheiden). Heck, maybe Asmodean would have gotten the same rez + mindtrap treatment, if he hadn&#180;t been balefired.<br /><br />- Ishamael, the DO, and gnosticism:<br />Well, many have stated this before: Ishamael is the only one working for the DO's aim in full knowledge. We can see this here<br /><br />&quot;You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a<br />thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!&quot;<br /><br />However, he does not seem to think that destruction of time will mean oblivion. In fact, he thinks the contrary:<br />&quot;You live like a beetle under a rock, and you think<br />your slime is the universe. The death of time will bring me power such as you could not dream<br />of, worm.&quot;<br /><br />His position seems somewhat simmilar to that of the gnostics, which held the belief that the universe was a trap  created by a godlike figure, the Demiurge, and to escape it, they aim to restore their divine nature, often with the aid of a second godlike figure. <br /><br />Now, from this POV Ishamael's desire to destroy the universe  is a bit less batsh*t crazy: he helps the DO immanentize the Eschaton, and in turn ascends himself (and presumably at the very least the other Forsaken as well) to the superior plane, becoming godlike


created: 2006-01-18 04:32:47
subject: <b>Isn't it obvious?</b>
body:
Only pure evil would try to cover that evil up by calling itself Good'Kind! Lesser evil wouldn't have to try so hard! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 08:47:00
subject: <b>goodkind</b>
body:
any body get through that series? I tried but after book 2 and I saw a new enemy emerging followed by another enemy followed by... you get the point. The series lacks finesse and subtleties only a few gifted writers can hope to grasp. Enough of my rambling though. Since the identity of the dark one has been revealed, I think the creater should be unveiled too. So, the creator has to be Harriot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 21:50:24
subject: <b>100% Approval rating!</b>
body:
Out of two votes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />This may be my most accepted theory yet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 18:10:52
subject: <b>Not really 100%...</b>
body:
Actually, Fanatic Templer, the voting thing has been screwed up for the last few weeks. Every theory is showing up as 100% of something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 18:14:20
subject: <b>Well... it might still have been true.</b>
body:
100% of two votes, and one of them was mine. I like those odds <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 23:52:22
subject: <b>why oh why</b>
body:
didn't you spend your time and energies coming up with a humourous theory for a change? BTW I voted &quot;yes&quot;.


created: 2006-01-20 04:55:09
subject: <b>So,</b>
body:
you're telling us that you're a servant of Good'kind? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-01-20 10:01:37
subject: <b>Down with Terry Goodkind</b>
body:
Down with the sword of truth.<br />Down with the &quot;Sisters of the Light&quot; and Sisters of the Dark<br />Down with their false Mistress of Novices<br />Down with...ah you get the idea<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Val Hala sucks, trust me I've been there. Noone bathes...&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-21 20:48:35
subject: <b>I'm no servant of the Shadow!</b>
body:
I have, however, defied the Creator's whims and discovered the truths he wished kept hidden.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-24 12:29:27
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
*waits for sid to show up and balefire FT's ass*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-30 17:06:05
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
I read like 6 of Good'kinds books. At one point, I started to make a comparison list of all the things I thought he stole. This, of course, became almost impossible because there is only so much time in the day and the ripoffs are so numerous...


created: 2006-02-13 23:45:25
subject: <b>You make a good point, Darth Templar</b>
body:
You're one crazy dude, but the line between &quot;crazy&quot; and &quot;brilliant&quot; are often confused.  I voted &quot;yes&quot; because I felt like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">[<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />]<br />&quot;I guess this sign means 'Look Out for Falling Swords'...Ho scary is that?!&quot; ~Radiata Stories</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-27 07:23:07
subject: <b>This completely made my day</b>
body:
It all seems so clear now. So obvious. Perhaps this could be the basis of a new kind of religion?<br /><br /><br />(Quickly calculating the possible profit of such an enterprise...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Several palms short of an oasis.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-31 16:02:40
subject:
<b>Don't forget to count royalties while you're at it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I'm spamming my own theory. For shame.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-25 16:28:42
subject: <b>I'm famous!</b>
body:
This theory has been linked from Westeros! Now, even Sidious can't stop the truth from spreading...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-19 12:04:23
subject: <b>Hey Now</b>
body:
<i> Perhaps this could be the basis of a new kind of religion?</i><br /><br />Leave the crazy-religion-making to the sci-fi authors <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-07-31 16:59:55
subject: <b>Good'Kind</b>
body:
(the name it's an oxymoron)<br />but besides rip off's in those books are thinly layered plots of anti-communisum. (i actually read the whole series i just can't stop reading a story when i start it it's a weakness)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 04:39:10
subject: <b>yummm...</b>
body:
good theory i think...Not saying that i wholly agree with it, but a possibility more likely than anything i can think of. haha, good job something to look into.<br /><br />this is soo off subject but, is controlling multiple flows of the one power like patting your head, rubbing your tummy while spinning your foot one way and hopping on the other...maybe not that diffucult, but it was mentioned that not many Aes Sedai could handle as many flows as Egwene, so does it take a certain level of concentration?...gaa i don't even know if thats the word i want to use...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 06:59:13
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
portal stones and mirror worlds were simply a literary device, and probably won't come into play again, and certainly not on this level.  having said that...<br /><br />i like the idea that if all of the &quot;unimportant&quot; things (like building layouts) merge, there would still be multiple worlds left over with enough drastic differences that merging would be impossible.  thus, rather than fighting one uber-merged last battle, the dark one would have to fight a number of them.  but still, there must be some worlds where he will win the battle, and if he breaks free in one, he breaks free in all... whatever, i don't think the mirror worlds will reenter the picture.<br /><br />and to the person above me - the knack for dividing flows is most likely a combination of precision/magnitude/experience.  probably a good deal of confidence involved as well.


created: 2006-01-18 07:45:49
subject: <b>got a point to add</b>
body:
i think this &quot;world&quot; that we read about is the center of all worlds and this is where the DO and DR/D are able to be at their peak (someting like the dark tower series) <br />who wouldnt want to be at their strongest if they want to attack? and ur arch enermy may or maynot have the chance to optain their max potential b4 u both fight?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kill a Trolloc a day to keep the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Dark One<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> at bay</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 10:48:52
subject: <b>many worlds one battle</b>
body:
i enjoyed this theory.  Seems very plausable other than Rand getting his hand back though.  Just as someone stated above me that if DO breaks out in one world he breaks out in all of them.  Naturally the worlds would have to combine and fight as one only to diverge from that central point agian.


created: 2006-01-18 11:02:57
subject: <b>Its the Taint</b>
body:
Remember that the Taint breaks down the barrier between past lives. The more one uses the power the greater the breakdown.<br /><br />Now Rand removed the Taint by drawing it into SL to contend with SL. I think the effect of the taint is not restricted to lives but also to the barrier between realities.<br /><br />The reality changes are a result of the cleansing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 11:37:49
subject: <b>To Caychris</b>
body:
That is an excellent theory!!!<br />you should post your own.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sally Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brown Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Trained by Verin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> The ultimate answer to life,<br />the universe, and everything: 42</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 14:33:32
subject: <b>Interesting idea ...</b>
body:
... but I don't agree.  I think it's quite possible that the barrier between Mirror Worlds may be breaking down (due to the DO's influence), so that occasionally there is some &quot;overlap&quot; between worlds.  And, we see the effect of this &quot;overlap&quot; in the changing corridors, etc.<br /><br />But, I don't think the Mirror Worlds are converging.  Primarily because, since time is circular in WoT, the Mirror Worlds would have to diverge again at some point.  But, if the DO is re-sealed after the convergence, what could trigger that divergence?<br /><br />Hmmm ... to answer my own question, perhaps the divergence occurred at the end of the 2nd Age (AoL), when the DO is freed.  So, they diverge for about an Age, and then converge again?  In that case, if the DO caused the divergence in the AoL, what is causing the convergence now?  The DO again?  Why would HE cause a divergence 3000 years ago, and then a convergence now?<br /><br />I think the simpler explanation is that they are just temporarily overlapping - an effect of the DO becoming freer of his prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 14:33:48
subject: <b>Worlds</b>
body:
Right... wouldn't that mean that the corridors are in different positions in the parallel worlds? If so, why aren't farms, mountains, fields, coastlines, ect... shifting along as they fuse with their mirror world counterparts? I believe that it is the DO creating strange paradoxs, such as the stone roof at Shayol Ghul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 18:54:41
subject: <b>Read the end of this theory</b>
body:
http://wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1029&amp;Category=DreamWorld<br /><br />In it, I suggest that all possible worlds may be collapsing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 00:40:10
subject: <b>One Last Battle?</b>
body:
I thought each world had it's own Last Battle with it's own outcome. That's why Rand would have seen those different outcomes when he went through the portal stones right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> RIP Robert Jordan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />Godspeed, Brandon Sanderson</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 12:47:47
subject: <b>Prossible, but eh.. probably not.</b>
body:
It &quot;makes sense&quot;, but there are plenty of WoT theories that make sense and don't pan out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 22:44:25
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
Sounds like a very good theory. A lil out there but i like it and it sounds possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to my right hand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> (must protect it at all costs!..it's my best friend)<br />The Lonely Japanese Wotmaniac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 22:47:19
subject: <b>A Good Theory</b>
body:
That is a good theory. I can see it happening.<br /><br />To those saying that it doesn't make sense because of convergence/divergence, I would point out that there seems to be only a finite number of mirror worlds (at least a finite number that can be reached from the portal stones), and to remain finite, either they would have to be independent (in which case, there wouldn't need to be a dragon, or anything similar for that matter), or there would need to be a starting point (where there is only one world).<br /><br />It is conceivable that the end of the &quot;third age&quot; is that common point, so that the fourth age begins with only one world, and they start to diverge again as people encounter choices (turn left or turn right, for example).<br /><br />Perhaps that is the purpose of binding the creator within the pattern and allowing him to periodically break free - to reset the mirror worlds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-20 20:51:31
subject: <b>cool idea</b>
body:
but i dont think so. one of those ways the series coulda gone but didnt.<br /><br />really cool thinking process though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-21 04:10:01
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
pretty solid cept for the hand regeneration, don't agree with that. Think it might be an asset to rand. Lot less intimidating with one hand so enemy's over confidence level skyrockets. Don't think losing a hand would affect channeling anyway. not that it matters much since he's still feeling the effect of the taint, probly cause he was the one who cleansed it, big black ball of evil had to go somewhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-23 01:06:53
subject: <b>to Shishka</b>
body:
The divergence, if it did indeed occur at some point, definitely did not occur at the end of the AoL. The Aes Sedai who have talked about the portal stones say that they were used in the age before the AoL. Granted, they don't always know what they're talking about, but I think Verin at least is credible, and got her information from ancient manuscripts.<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, nice theory. Don't completely agree with it, but it's a good idea.


created: 2006-01-23 14:24:47
subject: <b>Portal Stones</b>
body:
The portal stones were most definitly used in the AoL. That is how they had a book written about them from the AoL. This is how Lanfear knew how to use them. This is why the White Tower does not know how to use them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-25 03:41:21
subject: <b>To Nettles ...</b>
body:
Thanks, I agree (and with Demosthenes, too).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 16:10:30
subject: <b>me likey</b>
body:
this theory explains the foreshadowing of the first buble of evil.  perrin felt chased by his axe, mat was attacked by the powerful and everyone assumed that rand merging with lews therin was the last.  this theory provides a different way of looking at that foreshadowing...even if you are wrong, it is a great idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-28 16:50:05
subject: <b>Overlapping Realities are the wrong explanation.</b>
body:
What that theory says is that some realities differ only slightly and are now overlapping. So why do the corridors change? A normal overlap would mean the corridor getting broader or windows appearing where none were before. It does not mean that the corridor would be in another place (this would mean the change to another reality, not an overlap).<br />Besides. Tel'Aran'rhoid should encompass all the worlds. But one constant in TAR is the layout of buildings. Also, there are many other things which would change prior to architectual changes (which are not minor), but nobody seems to notice them, so i assume they do not happen.<br />I like the explanation that the DO is breaking free and the pattern is shifting to accomodate such an entity. That or the destruction of the taint, which might have left a vast vacuum which the pattern is trying to fill, hence all the shifts in reality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 17:40:13
subject: <b>Naaaaa</b>
body:
I disagree with you to an extent, agree with you to another. The idea that worlds are merging due to the DO tearing through the pattern (already shown through the whole ghost thing) could well mean that the changing rooms are mirrors of themselves from other dimensions, where things are slightly different.<br /><br />However I disagree with the part about people merging with their extra-dimensional selves. in these infinite dimensions, ANYONE in Randland may have died already, or not have been born, and other people will have been born that don't exist in Randland. For the merger to make sense EVERYTHING should be merging over not just things that exist in Randland. So there should be literally an infinite number of new people popping up all over the place, new buildings not just changes in old ones etc etc<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kneel, or you will be knelt! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm SOOOOO much cooler than <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 00:34:30
subject: <b>I take another route</b>
body:
When i was reading KoD i thought of the corridors shifting as the pattern falling apart. Correct me if i am wrong but doesn't it happen after each one of those &quot;reality-quakes&quot; where everything wobbles. I think it is just the pattern starting to fall apart. DId anything bad happen after that black ajah group who kidnapped elayne start blasting everyone with balefire? Because as the parrten falls apart balefire would have more of an adverse effect.


created: 2006-02-04 18:15:39
subject: <b>ta'averen</b>
body:
If this theory is correct then this could explain some things about Rand, Mat and Perrin. The part about how your personality could merge with one in a mirror world, since the mirror worlds have different times, they could be in different ages. Rand is Lews Therin Reborn, so this merging could be why LTT's voice is in the back of his head. Matt has the memories of dead generals, and Perrin is a wolf brother. These 3 could have attracted the merges more because they are ta'avaren. How soon will it start afffecting others?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I may be a fool, but I intend to be a live fool.&quot; <br />- Mat Cauthon<br /><br /><br /><br />I luv Lan!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 13:47:19
subject: <b>And Verin said...!</b>
body:
Verin said that if the DO is loose, then ALL the worlds will feel the DO's power. or something. The DO is unique and the worlds are merging. Verin can support your theory.  xD<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://tinyurl.com/k4za4<br /><b>&quot;Intuitively Obviously Revealed!&quot;</b> <br />Submitted by kcf<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/jcxpw<br /><b>&quot;The Power that resides in the Kitchen&quot;</b><br />Submitted by sidious</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-12 17:13:31
subject: <b>Hmm....</b>
body:
In regard to the comments of &quot;Dark one wins in one world, he wins in all&quot; Yes, thats true, but dont forget the other part, that if the dark one is defeated in one, he is defeated in all. Rand just needs to win, the pattern will then make sure all the other Rands do as well. Its this system i think that makes it so the Dark One can never truly win, he has to essentially beat every incarnation of the dragon to be free, but only one dragon has to defeat him, for all of them to win.<br /><br />I also dont agree with the merging theory myself, i dont think there needs to be only one Last Battle, i think that the Last Battle takes place at the same time, across all of the mirrors, but they are essentially different battles.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 10:13:03
subject: <b>I liked everything but the Guardians balancing the Servants</b>
body:
The number of &quot;guardians&quot; couldn't possibly balance the Servants unless everyone in Far Madding can channel.  And the actual guardians are immobile so I find it hard to see how they could check the power of those outside of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 10:24:49
subject: <b>Interesting theory...</b>
body:
part one...hmmm...do I smell a conspiracy theory? Possibly involving Cadsuane, and/or Verin, and/or Romanda? I look forward to that possiblity, but am already skeptical (since I once looked into writing a theory about Cadsuane along those lines).<br /><br />Anyway, very interesting ideas about Far Madding and it's founders. I like the idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 11:07:07
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
but im not seeing the conection between this and the violence you started out wth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 11:24:58
subject: <b>Agreed.</b>
body:
Guess I'll wait for the next installment to pass judgement.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 12:00:52
subject: <b>Looks promising</b>
body:
I really like the reasoning and it could help explain why<br />Verin and Cads seem to not be like other AS. People keep looking for a new secret ajah within the tower but Ajah existed before the tower and maybe these channelers from Far Madding might belong to some such.<br /><br />I think it is a distinct possibility that something is up there.<br /><br />Things brought up in this theory begs some questions to be asked.<br /><br />If a Ter'angral is responsible for the stedding effect in far madding is it similar for the Ogier stedding? They lost the stedding remember. Something is fixing the location of the stedding.<br /><br />Also the clean Saidin in the Eye was placed there during the breaking. How was this achieved? I know the 100 died but how did they remove the taint?<br /><br />Just my thoughts<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 12:19:55
subject: <b>Very nicely written</b>
body:
Good job - and the history part is real nice. Overall it makes a very good read.<br /><br />I can't agree with you on the principal though.  Aes Sedai are extremely incomfortable at best in Far Madding and I don't think they would ever design a center where themselves can't even channel.  <br /><br />I would rather think that the core city was built as a haven for non-channelers.  <br /><br />If anything, I would speculate that Far Madding was built as a gesture from the White Tower to overcome the fear of AS among the southerners in the early post-Breaking (much like they adopted what is now the second oath post-WoS), possibly to convince the emerging Essenia to join the WT-sponsored Covenant of the Ten Nations. <br /><br />I speculate the purpose of the design is that AS would be on an equal footing with non-channelers inside the city but female Aes Sedai could still come and stay in the &quot;outer-rim&quot; to help with defense against male channelers, or to offer Healing etc. <br /><br />The Stone of Tear would make a more likely rallying point for &quot;renegade&quot; AS in that area, if anything.<br /><br />I don't think political hegemony was a great concern of the early White Tower. Their main goal was to bring the Guild back together, and I think they came down hard on the groups who wouldn't join because they believed their actions/philosophies threatened the survival of all AS, e.g. their ethics made the non-channelers hate and fear them etc.<br /><br />The theory was good food for thought though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 13:19:30
subject: <b>interesting speculation</b>
body:
But alas, that is all it is. I agree with DomA.  Channelers do not like being in a stedding.  Even the male AS who knew they were going mad could not keep themselves in a stedding for their whole lives.  I doubt that the ter'angreal were made as a way to create a power base for channelers apart from the WT.  Also, we have seen personal defense angreals and ter'angreals made for women like Cadsuane and Nynaeve have.  Most seem to agree that they were made only by women.  I see no reason to believe that the ter'angreal in Far Madding was made by men and women working together.  For all we know, it was made before the breaking as a way to protect key research done by AS in the war.  Remember, an AS with a well can channel there.<br /><br />I always interpreted Shalon's surprise as she was surprised that a mere 20 foot drop would make Kimura uneasy.  In other words she was surprised by her unease at such a short distance.  She knew how high she was climbing off the floor.<br /><br />A fun read, but I see nothing from the books that support it as anything more than fun speculation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 14:09:45
subject: <b>niceun</b>
body:
good theory, well written, and interesting.  often times i cannot get through any longer theories but this was a piece of cake.<br /><br />i like the idea a lot.  i think.  whether or not I agree or think it will come into play is another story.<br /><br />either way, very well done!


created: 2006-01-26 14:30:05
subject: <b>Um... No</b>
body:
This theory is too far of a stretch. There were several other cities that the Ogier built, so that is irrelevant. The part about Far Madding being built on a lake is cool, but I don't think it has much to do with being Aes Sedai built; it might have simply been built that way to stop trollocs and mrydraal. There is a great possibility that the Guardians were built by both men and women, but I just can't see how Aes Sedai would make their base free from the source. This would effectively make their title of Aes Sedai useless in the presence of regular men and women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 17:56:42
subject: <b>good start</b>
body:
I like the idea of Far Madding being a sanctuary for male channelers or &quot;rebel&quot; Aes Sedai.  Seems like a great place to go if you were worried about being accosted by Tower Aes Sedai, especially with the other restrictions placed on weapons and such.  Sure, it sucks for a channeler to be cut off from the force, but its better than being stilled, captured, or dead.  On a side note for the conspiracy theorists out there.  What was Verin's deal when Rand's entourage met the Council in WH, asking about Ashaman and talking about Amalasan crushing Far Madding?  Almost like she wanted to plant a little uncertainty about the protection Far Madding has. In light of the later events surrounding Rand's capture and release, seems like she knew what would happen as was setting the stage for his rescue.  Anyway, eagerly waiting the next installment to see where this is going.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-27 14:07:20
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I loved the theory.  I hope Far Madding comes into play again in the story but we only have 'one' more book so...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-27 15:43:01
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I read thru it, and I'm sure I must have missed the actual summary of the theory... unless you are going to include it in part Two? I just couldn't figure out what the theory _was_... I'm sure I just was being blind tho. Sound facts, and excellent research. Top notch, wot?


created: 2006-01-28 17:09:22
subject: <b>I liked it</b>
body:
I like the idea of a hidden library/cache below the &quot;Guardian&quot; To counter DomA and others, I can see how the designers would incorporate the &quot;discomfort&quot; that the channelers feel as part of the protective mechanism for their library/cache.<br /><br />NaCl(great first effort, looking forward to part 2 )H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-29 11:28:35
subject: <b>A bit too complicated</b>
body:
I think your theory is a bit too complex compared to the facts we have about Far Madding. In my opinion, everything we have just shows that it was built to protect people from mad male Aes Sedai, when everyone was terribly afraid of channeling. Also, we know that female channelers can't stand not being able to touch the Source for a very long time, so they'd never agree to live in such a place.<br /><br />On the other hand, there is a problem with my point of view: how could non-channelers have ter'angreal and, even more, know how to use them? So there might just be something in your theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">+++PLEASE REINSTALL UNIVERSE AND REBOOT+++ (Hex in 'Hogfather')</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-29 23:59:16
subject: <b>quick question</b>
body:
Were not the male aes sedai called guardians in the age of legends while the female were called servents?  That I think was the reason for that interpretation of that theory.  Anyway interesting but I don't think realistic but we will see I guess..


created: 2006-01-30 12:13:42
subject: <b>The male Aes Sedai</b>
body:
How can all of you wotmaniacs overlook something like this?<br /><br />If I remember correctly from the BWB, the Breaking ended when the last male Aes Sedai was dead. The White Tower was built a few hundred years after the breaking.<br />Yet you all talk about protection from mad male Aes Sedai...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 00:53:57
subject: <b>Aes Sedai=servants of all</b>
body:
&quot;Were not the male aes sedai called guardians in the age of legends while the female were called servents? &quot;<br /><br />I believe that Aes Sedai was defined as &quot;servants of all&quot; and that applied to both male and females.  <br /><br />&quot;Asha'man&quot; means &quot;'guardian' or 'guardians,' but always a guardian of justice and truth.&quot; (from The Path of Daggers, glossary)<br /><br /><br />As for the theory, I suppose I'll have to wait for the next part(s) to see...<br /><br />I really liked Far Madding and I always hoped to see more of the city.  I wonder though, how did Far Madding Aes Sedai like Verin and Cadsuane know that they could channel, since the ter'angreal block channeling?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Trust was a knife, and the hilt was as sharp as the blade.<br /><br />-The Path of Daggers<br /><br />Shattered dreams, shards of glass cutting my feet.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 12:35:47
subject: <b>Asha'man &amp; Cadsuane/Romanda/Verin</b>
body:
You're right about the Asha'man. We don't know for sure what an Asha'man was in the Age of Legends, and that's assuming they are not a post-AoL creation.<br /><br />In any case, they were not the male Aes Sedai.<br /><br />A theory is that they were similar to Plato's &quot;guardians&quot; and thus would be the name of the pre-War members of the government. Another is that it was a name given to the fighters for the Light in the War of Shadow - though someone would likely have commented on that by now, IMHO. The name and enough information to decipher what it means has survived, it came from Bashere.<br /><br /><b>I wonder though, how did Far Madding Aes Sedai like Verin and Cadsuane know that they could channel, since the ter'angreal block channeling?</b><br /><br />It's probably simple. Most of the women who become AS go to the WT to be tested and see if they could learn or not. Only &quot;wilders&quot; with the spark go there or are sent there knowing beforehand they can channel.<br /><br />So unless Cadsuane, Verin or Romanda were wilders, that's in TV only they learned they could channel, not in FM. If one of them had the spark, a trip outside the city limits,  would eventually reveal it. No need to go very far, e.g. the &quot;picnic&quot; outside the city when Cadsuane taught things to Nynaeve.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 18:08:50
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Very well researched and thought out. <br /><br />I don't think that channelers would create a city where they couldn't channel to protect themselves, as they would not be able to stand living there, but I like the idea of a cache of knowledge being hidden in the city. If some renegade or suspicous channelers thought that it might fall into the wrong hands, but was afraid it might get lost, maybe put it where other channelers wouldn't go. Could go a long way towards explaining some things about Verin in particular.


created: 2006-02-01 12:48:54
subject: <b>Just to play along...</b>
body:
&quot;(The counsels wear small copies of the ter&#8217;angreal &#8211; it would be interesting to take them outwith the boundary and test them to see if they were ter&#8217;angreal too.)&quot;<br /><br />What if these 'small copies' are ter'angreal and they allow a channeller to chanell inside Far Madding?


created: 2006-02-04 00:14:39
subject: <b>I think your on to something</b>
body:
I agree that there is more to Far Madding than meets the eye. I don't totally agree with the direction you are going with this. But, then again you are not done yet so i eagerly await Part 2.<br /><br />On the other hand, what was Tar Valon before the white tower was founded? Just an island? I think that the parellel drawm has some significance. During the AOL was there one seat of Aes Sedai power, or two Male and Female? COuld Far Madding have been the male seat?


created: 2006-01-31 09:48:56
subject: <b>yeah, there are 3 of them....</b>
body:
I don't think its even close.  The biggest stretch is Shaidar Haran being the Holy spirit.  The holy spirit is always non corporeal.  The true power would be more like the holy spirit.  The Moridin/evil Jesus almost works, but he got a new body.  Maybe Messana is the holy spirit?


created: 2006-01-31 12:10:40
subject: <b>I don't think the analogy works very far</b>
body:
It is a bit superficial.  You'd probably like the &quot;real life&quot; parralels section of the FAQs if you haven't read those.  <br /><br />First of all there is no &quot;god of evil&quot;, antithesis of the Creator in christianity. The concept does not exist. Lucifer is a fallen angel, underling of the Creator, while Shai'tan is the evil counterpart of the Creator itself - a &quot;god&quot;.<br /><br />There is also no &quot;evil trinity&quot; opposing the &quot;good&quot; one, and so it makes an ackward comparison - all the more if you consider there isn't even such a &quot;good&quot; trinity balancing your evil one in WOT.<br /><br />A much better comparison to the Dark One, in fact probably the best there is in RL religions, is found with Ariman the antithesis of Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism and in Mani's (heretical) doctrines. Ancient Persia is also largely where the concepts of Asha'man and Servants are from.<br /><br />Shaidar Haran is an incarnated avatar of Shai'tan - some sort of demon or possessed creature - he has not much in common with an antithesis of the Holy Spirit, which is not incarnate. So far SH hasn't played a role that could well be opposed to that of the Holy Spirit either. As others have said, a more fitting, but nowhere perfect parralel would be the One Power/True Power, the essences of the Creator and Dark One.<br /><br />Of the three, Moridin makes the best parralel as some sort of Antichrist figure, but Rand as a messianic figure is somewhat superficial to begin with. Jesus' mission wasn't to save humanity from Satan or to fight him, and Rand certainly isn't part of a trinity with the Creator, he's purely human. A hero and champion, not really a redeemer and messianic figure in the way Christ was. He has a lot more in common with mythological &quot;culture heroes&quot; who awake or are reincarnated at the time of their nation/people's greatest need. There <i>are</i> parralels to Christ, such as the Crown of Swords/Thorns etc. but the Christian theology, such as the nature of God and the trinity doesn't make a good parralel, IMHO. The price of redemption in WoT is gonna be far greater than Rand's death to save the world. There is an analogy there, but only an analogy.<br /><br />The great direct connection between Christianity and WOT, including Rand-Christ parralels, remains the Apocalypse, from which a lot of details of Tarmon Gai'don are from. Other than that the links are often stretched or minor and are much richer in other religions or even myths.  E.g. the link between the Virgin Mary and Rand's mother, which is often mentionned because she is a &quot;maiden&quot;, is tenuous at best and in a way incidental when you consider Rand's birth and raising by foster parents is far closer to the childhood of many mythological heroes than to Christ's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 12:37:45
subject: <b>Hrrm</b>
body:
Aside from what the above post says, I believe your biggest hurdle is Shaidar Haran being in a physical body.  Whereas the Holy Spirit is, quite plainly, not a physical being in any understanding.<br /><br />I think WOT philosophy is too much of a hodgepodge to make such a direct comparison.  Kind of like the Matrix was.  Though Jordan has done a much better job of having things make sense.  And we won't be asking for our money back when rest of the story unfolds.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 12:51:25
subject: <b>Sorry, not a chance</b>
body:
Basically, the only thing you've got going for this arguement is that there are three main evil things.  Everything else is  a pretty big stretch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 16:50:20
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
people, i think, just like being critical.  your theory does have some merit, and i will point out where.  <br /><br />in the wot realm, there are no 'spirits'.  there are ghosts, but no intangible spirit (not that there are any in our world either).  so therefore, if rj wanted to make an evil trilogy, he'd be working with a different subset of information and different vessels.  i like shaidar haran being the 'spirit' part of the trilogy since he/it is a non-human representative of the evil of the do.  and although ishamael is not 'born' of the father, he is the chosen one to lead others to his god and is brought back to life by his god.  and the do, like the devil, was cast down many moons ago.  i like this theory, except i'd be curious to know who the good trilogy is to balance.  obviously rand and the creator, but who is the 'spirit'?  maybe that's what verin is...hehehee...  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 16:51:09
subject: <b>Meh..</b>
body:
Paralells<br />Dark One= Creator       (God the father)<br />Ishi Moridin=Rand  (Jesus)<br />True Power=One Power    (Holy Spirit)<br /><br />That's abit closer, but its still a stretch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 16:54:53
subject: <b>Generally forced to agree with the others.</b>
body:
If not so enthusiasticly.  Mainly, the idea of a corporeal analogue to the the Holy Spirit is a BIG obstacle.  I suppose an argument could be made that we don't see Shaidar Haran personally intervening, rather giving orders to Forsaken and other intermediaries (just as the Holy Spirit works through intermediaries most of the time. )  But even there it's hard to get around the fact the Holy Spirit CAN and HAS intervened directly, but NEVER demonstrated a physical form because none such exists.  <br /><br />Certainly Ishamael sees himself as a kind of Anti-Christ, and that's consistent with Christian parallels, just as the Dark One provides a parallel with the devil.  On the other hand, we can turn to Revelation for what might be a conscious mockery of the Trinity in the triad of the Dragon/the Anti-Christ/the Beast.  And there we have, once again, a physical manifestation devoid of any inherent being, simply animated by the spirit of malevolence and having power only &quot;in the presence of the Beast. &quot;  Dunno; it's interesting, but I'm afraid I, too, remain unconvinced.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 18:17:20
subject: <b>I'm having issues w/ the Moridon part of this...</b>
body:
I see him as First among servants...not part of the Trinity..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-01-31 19:01:26
subject: <b>Defense</b>
body:
Well my main argument is that Shaidar Haran is the personification of this &quot;Unholy spirit&quot;. He shows the ultimate corruption that occurs from the True Power. Rather than Moridin, who simply is a child of the Creator but corrupted by the True Power, Shaidar Haran has it as part of his very being... it corrupts him from the get go. Granted, Haran has a corporeal body, and one could argue that the True Power is somewhat like an unholy spirit, but I would argue that Haran is the personification of the unholy spirit's affect on man, and thus represents the unholy spirit.<br /><br />As for Christianity not including a Dark Trinity, I know this. I am merely appealing to the idea that perhaps this is a &quot;dark&quot; appeal to it. To my knowledge in Zorastorism, while they have the Light/Dark dualism, they do not have a trinity. If I am correct on this, please tell me.


created: 2006-02-01 14:15:39
subject: <b>Trinity Interpretation</b>
body:
I haven't taken the time to do in-depth research, but what if the theory were applied to the Jewish interpretation of the Trinity?  Two men to lead the people, according to God's will of course, and free them from Roman oppression.  One spiritual leader or High Priest, another to be a civic/military leader.  Of course you would have to accept the theory that Jesus was the High Priest and his brother James the General.  I realize I'm reaching here, but it makes an interesting parallel to me.  Ish/Moridin as Dark Jesus, Shaidar Haran as the military leader, and of course the Dark One as the disembodied presence guiding events.


created: 2006-02-01 15:15:42
subject: <b>To Alex</b>
body:
I thought in the dual messianic model, John the babtist was the spiritual leader and jesus was the civic/military leader?  At least thats how i've seen it interpereted.  As i understand it, there is a repeating cycle that Jesus was supposedly a part of wherin the two messiahs show up every 2000 years or so, but one of them dies and the other is forced to take on both roles and ends up failing.  Interestingly, in the research i read, Jesus marked the end of the third such age/ cycle dating back into the Zoroastrian predecessors of Judaism.


created: 2006-02-01 19:41:43
subject: <b>maybe this will help</b>
body:
As for the DO being the creator's equal, while Lucifer was a fallen angel... well, the creator doesn't even try to take part, as he tells Rand in tEotW. The DO does actively work in the world. Also, he's kind of in prison. Even though he's the 'equal' of the creator, he is beneath him, at least for the moment. And didn't Lucifer try to overthrow god.<br />As for SH being corporeal, the dove at Jesus' baptism was kind of there. And wouldn't evil be less inclined to be in the background? Bad guys can 'cheat' and have SH act in the world. And I think that the holy spirit or its antithesis would have to have some measure of intelligence. They say that 'by the power of the holy spirit he [jesus] was born of the virgin mary'. I don't think that anyone would say 'by the power of the true power', or anything to that effect. I think that the spirit thing has to have more agency than the TP could generate.<br />As for Moridin, I think it possible for him to be the anti-jesus. I think that the duality of Jesus, mortal and divine, can be seen in the dragon soul and as Rand. Moridin acts as his antithesis. We don't see Moridin being reborn in a body- we know that he was- but this could be used for symbolic effect, to show that he is mortal and divine.<br />Then there's the fact that only the DO, Moridin, and perhaps SH can use the TP (was that what he was using on Mesaana that she couldn't feel, much like the Wanderer used TP balefire that Rand couldn't sense). I know that there have been like 28 other guys that have been granted the use of TP, but we don't see any of them. In the story, for the literary purpose, there are no others that are part of the TP trinity. Unless the Taint is similar to the TP, but I'm not gonna touch that here.


created: 2006-02-02 15:31:11
subject: <b>Unparallel</b>
body:
There simply isn't enough is common to compare the DO's &quot;minnions&quot; to the the Godhead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 08:06:07
subject: <b>very good!</b>
body:
Well-researched. A bit of extra evidence, various points of view in KoD, from both Beonin and Elaida, make it much more certain that Beonin was the only ferret sent by Elaida to the Salidar Aes Sedai. This reinforces your case under Part 2, point 2.


created: 2006-02-02 10:53:33
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I agree with this theory. It is logical, and well backed up, with supporting facts. I voted yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 11:35:22
subject: <b>good summary...</b>
body:
...I suppose my instinctual response to this theory is &quot;Duh&quot; - not to sound harsh or anything, I just thought that this was obvious. <br /><br />But it is a good summary of the available info. I'd like to see you flesh out the bits about prophesy and such more and theorize on what his next move is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 17:57:57
subject: <b>I've been thinking something along these lines</b>
body:
but i didn't really go into it this well. good job i agree fully<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 18:04:17
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
I've never really given any thought to it but I think your right. Good work Columbo! ;P<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fan of Rolan is my warder dont tick me off or you will endure the wrath of one of her 'moods'.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 22:31:20
subject: <b>Good but its the Seanchan who are Raiding.</b>
body:
I think this is well researched but after reading it and the empasise you placed on someone with channelers attacking there food supple I believe it is the seanchan.  Remember the &quot;bat&quot; in the sky.  <br /><br />Thats my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">AballaSonDis<br /><br />ASD-- &quot;The King Approaches <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The Idiot Warrior&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Jackie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-02 22:42:49
subject: <b>The &quot;bat&quot;</b>
body:
Egwene did NOT see the Seanchan, here is a quote from Robert Jordan in his blog on Thursday, October 06, 2005.<br /><br />&quot;Oh, yes, just to settle an argument that seems to be ongoing, Egwene saw a bat, guys.  After Falme, she could recognize the long sweeping wingstrokes of a raken or to'raken, and she knows a bat when she sees one.  Bats really do flutter, to confirm those who have pointed this out.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not saying that it definitely couldn't be the Seanchan doing the raids, just that there is no proof that they are anywhere near the area.  I guess I could have mentioned this in the theory ... there always something missing


created: 2006-02-03 07:40:01
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
but to be totally irrelevant...the twelf (cant spell) book isnt supposed to be the last book, is it????!!!! kus if not someone needs to their facts strayt.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-03 11:47:29
subject: <b>And the number shall be twelve, and no more.</b>
body:
As far as I've seen, it looks like number 12 is the last book.  (which will be huge) And you desparately need a spell check or grammar handbook.<br /><br />&quot;twelf&quot; did give me a laugh though, so thanks for that.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-03 13:28:25
subject: <b>A very nice summary</b>
body:
Which is what I have believed since CoT.<br /><br />All the facts about Gawyn fit.<br /><br />Egwene knows from a True Dream that she will bond him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 15:13:31
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
That's good work, nicely put together and argumented.<br /><br />It's a widely held theory since CoT - it's actually close to a small consensus I believe that Gawyn is used against the rebels, but you bring all the points in favor of it in a solid way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 14:45:37
subject: <b>Will he know what he chooses between?</b>
body:
Or is it all mere chance?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 01:10:19
subject: <b>Hmmmm.....</b>
body:
I think that the &quot;Book of translation&quot; topic is one that needs discussion. I don't agree with your interpretation though. I remmember at one point RJ said that Ogier were part cat and i assumed that that meant they were made by AS much like those green men. <br />However i really like your &quot;steadings are part of alternante dimension&quot; thing..... i like your reasoning but i feel that in a theory like this the burdeon of proof lies one you and i feel that you have failed to convince me fully.


created: 2006-02-04 10:53:30
subject: <b>i agree with what your saying with the exception that they're not</b>
body:
&quot;dimension hoping&quot; as such but space travel. they're from actual other worlds, not parallel worlds, which is why loial would have no knowledge of these &quot;mirror worlds&quot;, but other yes, that's what RJ seems to have outlined for us, well done<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 15:52:01
subject: <b>ter'angreal?</b>
body:
I would also argue that by introducing this book of translation so late, Jordan is trying to interject some form of actual &quot;magic,&quot; that is not explained by pseudo-physics and is a mystery even to him, something he will not explore but will leave to be interpreted.  (This is similar to what Tolkien did with the ambiguous Tom Bombadil).  And i do not beleive that whatever &quot;world&quot; the ogier will go to will be a mirror world, i think it will actually be another WORLD, planet, as has been suggested above.  Also, i do not beleive Ogier were invented by Aes Sedai.  That seems so awful.


created: 2006-02-04 17:11:31
subject: <b>Space-Ogier?</b>
body:
The Ogier weren't created by the Aes Sedai; it says as much in the Guide.<br /><br />It would be cool if the Ogier were actual aliens; I always thought there were hints that the AoL Aes Sedai had space travel: Lews Therin's POV at the very start of EotW has him thinking about the 'World Sea', and in TSR (I think) Lanfear goes on about stars being suns with other worlds around them.<br /><br />However, if it were true, it gives no indication as to why the One Power dosn't work in a stedding. Dimension-hopping does... tenuously!<br /><br />I certainly hope that RJ dosn't just leave this unexplained at the end of book 12. He is going to have a hard time cramming the fulfilment of all the prophecies in there, but if loose-ends &amp; mysteries like this are just left dangling, I may have to go postal.<br /><br />P.S. Tom Bombadil is almost certainly a Maiar! - And a particularly annoying one at that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Niv-Mizzet, will you ever learn? You toast bread, NOT people! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 21:21:32
subject: <b>your (i)italisization(i) button is broken</b>
body:
you should fix it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">youngest user <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> &lt;--- What the hell?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 21:47:12
subject: <b>I do believe.....</b>
body:
if you search wheel of time on wikipedia it mentions that RJ plans on writing more prelquals maybe he introduced this so as to tell how the ogier decided to come to this deminision/world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Fuer grissa ost Drauka <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 23:03:30
subject: <b>astro-ogier</b>
body:
yeah, i think they will be planet hopping, not dimension hopping. other than that, it sounds good. <br /><br />and the [i]italics[i] didn't work too well.


created: 2006-02-05 01:25:46
subject: <b>Italic pr0oblem fixed</b>
body:
S9orry about that. I thought I'd fixed this before letting this theory through. Fixed now, sorry fot the bother.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 13:40:45
subject: <b>one thing missing</b>
body:
Been puzzling this since the last book too and I'll admit your theory is interesting.  The one part of it I disagree with however it how the actual departure will take place, specifically whether the stedding will be involved. Remember, when Eldar Haman and Covril first mention the Great Stump and the Book Of Translation to Loial, the first argument he formulates against it has to do with uncertainty over how the Longing will be dealt with.  He later discards this as something which would have already been resolved but the fact that it seems to be an issue makes me wonder.  Perhaps he simply is not very knowledgable about the Book of Translation and how it operates, but it seems to me that his fear is that the Ogier will leave this world (and the stedding) and in doing so succumb to the Longing in a matter of years.  You could still be right about the nature of the stedding, and it does make sense in light of the other facets of your argument.  Maybe that is how Loial's &quot;problem&quot; was actually resolved.  Anyway, definitely one of the most interesting and persuasive theories on this site from my perspective, but I wanted to point out another possibility, that the Ogier will depart and the Stedding will stay where they are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 12:09:35
subject: <b>Maybe... but definitely interesting.</b>
body:
I think the Ogier are leftovers from another age, since they refer to waiting until the Wheel weaves them back into future age.  What if they realize that they'v been around longer than they were intended to be?  Perhaps this translation is somehow weaving them out of existence until they're born again.  Whether they'd get wiped or simply travel into this future age right away is anyone's guess.  (I know that's pretty far out)<br /><br />But that's what theory posting is all about.  Guessing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 13:42:00
subject: <b>Different world same dimension.</b>
body:
I dont think its dimmension jumping but rather something else.<br /><br />Remember the AOL were attempting to visit other worlds within thier own dimension both by traveling and through T'ar. I dont remember off hand but there is some legend of someone traveling to the moon if I recall.<br /><br />The Ogier may not have originated here or they may have but according to the cycle they must leave in order to return.<br /><br />There is just not enough information to form a coheasive explination. We can speculate but there are little facts.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 14:39:24
subject: <b>space=time</b>
body:
Just trying to point out that whether the Ogier jump time or space it's really the very same thing. <br /><br />The Stedding might be a sort of (locations of) worm holes... here and there; now and then... a vortex of space and time that can be burst right open with the &quot;book of translation&quot;, and create a way through. Also, it might be risky to open the book when the DO is touching the world, 'cause part of him might follow the vortex and thus touch the far away new home.<br /><br />As to why stedding's don't allow you to sense the source:You know, the warderbond fades when you're too far away. What if when you enter the stedding, the source is on another planet, millions of years back in time, or in other words: very, very far away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 15:25:37
subject: <b>Book of Translations</b>
body:
The Book of Translations obviously has something to do with the Ogier's arrival and departure, but one thing is bothering me. What does the book translate?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 16:53:41
subject: <b>Loial's Knowledge</b>
body:
Mostly of this seems logical and reasonable, aprt from your comment about Loial's not knowing about the other worlds... he is very young. I would venture to say that he knew the Ogier could use the book, when the time is right, but not exactly what is does... Perhaps his time with Selene helped him realise...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 18:32:23
subject: <b>To Demosthenes...</b>
body:
[b]The Book of Translations obviously has something to do with the Ogier's arrival and departure, but one thing is bothering me. What does the book translate?[/b]<br /><br />The word &quot;translate&quot; goes beyond dealing with literary words.  It can also refer to moving/transferring information or matter from one place to another.  Or for something in one state to be changed into another form or state.  <br /><br />That being said, I've always thought the Book of Translation was a tool used to transport the Ogier somehow.  (as dicussed above and in theory)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 18:40:14
subject: <b>Nice Work overall</b>
body:
A couple of thoughts:<br /><br />1)If they come from a different &quot;world&quot; where the OP has manifested as you suggest, then where did they get the ter'angreal in the first place, allowing them ability to travel between these 2 places?<br /><br />2)Judging from Covril's comments, they are bound to the wheel in some way, perhaps similar to the HotH.  This would seem to preclude them from coming from some out-space planet, and would support them coming from a different &quot;dimension&quot; or such.  It would seem wierd to me for the Ogier's to be on some other planet(out-space), minding their own business, when suddenly, a new age begins on some other distant planet(Randland/Turning of Wheel), and they are &quot;magically&quot; carried away/transported to this place.  That's just bizzarre.  More likely they are part of the same &quot;planet&quot;, just from other &quot;dimension&quot; or such....which is also bizzarre...lol<br /><br />Thinking about Ogier tends to hurt the mind.  It's like RJ just threw this new info. into the story just to torment us.<br /><br />Nice job though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 12:42:54
subject: <b>Great Theory!</b>
body:
Over the years, I've wondered why none of the quotations at the end of each book are by Ogier. Most of these quotes are ascribed to Fourth Age historians - Human historians. If Ogier are indeed ultra-long-lived, why are none of them credited with talking about the Third Age in the Fourth (post-Rand) Age?<br /><br />I believe the Book of Translation is a plot twist that RJ brought in to solve this conundrum, which is why I voted 'yes' to this theory.


created: 2006-02-07 12:59:06
subject: <b>is goot</b>
body:
i like your theory, though i wouldn't be surprised if the book of translation was something more literal, ie a book that describes the translation process to the ogier as opposed to a ter'angreal type object.  though it would be interesting if not, especially the how and why it was created.  the book model would also be interesting since it would further illustrate why ogier give so much power and trust to words.  <br /><br />very good theory, esp because it seems to have sparked so much discussion....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 15:57:13
subject: <b>Dimensions, the OP, and Portal Stones</b>
body:
Nice Theory! I was also very intrigued by the revelation of the Book of Translation and I have some thoughts of my own. First, as you and others have pointed out, the stedding seem to be bubbles in reality to which the Ogier have a special affinity. However, I do not agree that they are part of one of the mirrored dimensions. It seems to me that Ogier and stedding are, if anything, a purer reality, despite the shielding from the OP. People who enter into stedding feel at peace, that hardly sounds like a reflection of reality. <br /><br />Second, during the Breaking the Ogier were unable to find the stedding (ie they were buried, lost, moved or whatever) which makes me think that they are generated by actual physical objects. Also, during this time with many many Ogier dying from the Longing, I would think that the Book of Translation would have been used if it could have been. I believe, however, that it either is tied to the stedding, or it needs to be in one to work.<br /><br />Third, there are two points I would like to bring up: Verin's Grand Theory of the Universe and Reality and Lews Therin's bit about the Creator as Gardener. Both of these describe not just multiple worlds but multiple dimensions, each with different governing rules and each a true reality (unlike the mirror worlds). According to Verin, some may not even have the OP. The only constants are the Creator, the Dark One, and Tel'aran'rhiod. According to Lews Therin, the Creator is constantly making new worlds as others die from the corruption of the Dark One. To link these two together, I would argue that the Ogier &quot;originated&quot; in a dimension without the One Power as such and that they are like the Creator's earthworms (they help the worlds he creates grow and flourish with their treesinging and abilities to influence nature). They then move to different worlds to help them grow, returning when they are needed by the Pattern to Randland.<br /><br />Lastly, there is the problem of how this all can work. Jordan presented has presented us with more clues than just the Book of Translation. Far too much has been made of the Portal Stones for them not to be of more importance, especially their ancientness and their connection to alternate dimensions. Also, they resist moving (like stedding) and come from a time before Tamyrlin, the first channeler in the Age of Legends. Also connected to the Ogier are the ways, which also warp space-time. <br /><br />This all leads me to believe that the Portal Stones, while they can be activated by the One Power, were actually made by another means and can be activated differently. I also believe they are tied in some way to the stedding and possibly the Book of Translation. Perhaps the Book is like some gigantic Portal Stone central control mechanism. Or perhaps the Book is connected to all the Portal Stones and can use their power to translate the Ogier, and probably the Stedding into another world made by the Creator. Or maybe it simply provides the tools or information detailing how the Ogier can activate the Stones through a specific Ogier song. Personally I think the Book is an object connected to the Portal Stones, but one that can be activated through singing (if the others cannot). <br /><br />And there you have a much longer than necessary post... flame away!<br /><br />LoialT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-02-10 06:40:49
subject: <b>You're all forgetting one thing...</b>
body:
Book or no book, the Ogier aren't going anywhere, at least until after TG. When Verin was lecturing Egwene on constants in TDR, one constant was that every world has a DO imprisone on it, and that him breaking free in Randland makes him break free everywhere. Wherever that book takes them they won't be safe. Hopefully, Loial can talk them into fighting instead.


created: 2006-02-21 05:22:10
subject: <b>response to caychris</b>
body:
caychris wrote &quot;I dont think its dimmension jumping but rather something else.<br /><br />Remember the AOL were attempting to visit other worlds within thier own dimension both by traveling and through T'ar. I dont remember off hand but there is some legend of someone traveling to the moon if I recall.&quot;<br /><br />this was in the beginning of the first book and thom came to town and the kids were trying to get him to tell stories and egwene said: &quot;Tell us about Lenn,&quot; Egwene called. &quot;How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars.&quot;<br /><br />RJ uses a lot of real world occurances to make up a lot of the stories and legends in the wheel of time as it may just be a turn of the wheel or two from this world to rand's...and this is definately the story of american astronauts going to the moom in thier ships (nicknamed eagle of course).  Not sure if it implies any specific astronout. Sounds like John Glenn but he never went to the moon.  Neil armstrong did...it could me neil backwards, or it could be referring to alan sheppard of appolo 14. the second half of the quote refers to the russian Salyut space station most likely.


created: 2006-03-02 19:03:21
subject: <b>Selene lied.....</b>
body:
Why would Lanfear tell the truth? Particularly to an Ogier? It translates the symbols on the portal stones. Maybe the Ogier are from one of these alternate worlds,Why are they &quot;pale&quot; reflections? Perhaps the stedding are constructed from material from there, hence the effects. Perhaps their oral tradition + lifespan allow them to teach snippets of this knowledge until the wheel turns enough for them to fight the shadow...I like the idea. If this is true I wonder if their might be a few more wild cards from these places. Verin? Visitation and knowledge would be very powerful too...


created: 2006-03-24 06:45:42
subject: <b>Books</b>
body:
There's a lot about Ogier and their books. And now this &quot;Book of Translation.&quot; I'm going to put it on the table that this book doesn't open any gateway or send the Ogier to some other place; rather, I think that the Book of Translation will do something very like translating the Ogiers' essense into the Book. I don't think it's another demension OR another world, I think it's a sanctuary, a state of stasis, where they'll reside inside the Book. Kind of like a computer image just being a collection of 1s and 0s, only on a much larger scale.<br /><br />After all, it's called the Book of Translation, not the Book of Transition.


created: 2006-05-15 19:20:24
subject: <b>I was thinking....dangerous past time I know.</b>
body:
How would you explain Finnland then? Their world is clearly not a shadow, but yet rather in touch and involved in Rand land. I had Presumed the Book of Translation was a way to escape to another world not another demension. I find the rest rather interesting. I like the Status Idea at the end. That is quite possible as well. I think personally that the Book is an artifact that only the westland orgiers have managed to keep, and they have probably kept it a very big secret for a very long time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> I have miles to go before I sleep <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> And Miles to go before I sleep <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-17 13:28:37
subject: <b>Hidden in Plain Sight</b>
body:
Book of Translation: IMHO this is a very straight forward book. As we learn from Lanfear the Portal Stones can take you to other dimensions, places that there is no air to breathe, etc.<br />Now that the Ogier are looking to jump ship, they need to look up their sooper seekrit encyclopedia of translating the various symbols on the Portal stones so they can flee to a happy place and not end up on the bottom of the Atlantic. They will sit and ponder the various options in their guide until they reach an agreement on where to teleport to.<br />I believe this will fall along the lines of the Elves at the last stand with King Theoden of Rohan when Elrond sent his sons to support the defenders (the famous speach where the Elf says &quot;years ago Man and Elf stood together, etc&quot;. In the meantime Elrond sent the vast majority of his people off to safety of the West. Let us assume that the Ogier will evacuate the women and children and leave Loial and a few others to represent the Ogier in the final battle


created: 2006-09-11 13:23:32
subject: <b>counter balance</b>
body:
it seems if the ogier were able to channel it would make them more powerful than all others, the ability to contact and manipulate nature is nice, cuddly and sometimes useful. However if the ogier could channel, it seems that the invention of a stedding protection would be kinda voided. Why hide when you can attack back?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-09 09:06:05
subject: <b>life is just a dream</b>
body:
I think that the book of translation is much like the Aiel philosophy that life is a dream.<br />  The Amayar on Tremalking decided that the end of Illusion was here,and killed themselves.<br />  The Aiel talk of waking from the dream.<br />  The Ogier from Seandar,the gardeners,would surely know this secret of worm-holes and used it in the service of the Empress,may she live for ever.<br />   To sum up,I think the Ogier are planning Guyantown. <br />   Big time.<br />   My first post.be gentle


created: 2006-02-05 05:50:31
subject: <b>Some points</b>
body:
You mention that it would be Perrin that discovers the switch, but I think it's more likely that it is one of the three girls: Most likely Min or Aviendha, but possibly Elayne.<br /><br />Remember - they have a warder bond with him, so they know where he is, and since the warder bond is attached to the mind and not the body, the bond should carry over to Moridin's body, and the girls should feel the bond switch.<br /><br />Also, I don't see why it couldn't be that Rand's soul switches to Moridin's body, leaving LTT with Rand's body, so that Rand can access the TP through Moridin, and also to grant him knowledge of the DO, etc. It would allow Alivia to help LTT die (at the time of Min's viewing, Rand and LTT are the same person, so Min wouldn't know the difference). LTT's mind would be at peace again. It would also be just punishment for Moridin, to live the remainder of his life as a passenger in Rand's mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 09:09:38
subject: <b>It's a good theory..</b>
body:
..and I agree with most of it. However,when you say that Rand will be able to use the TP just because he is in Morridins body I have to disagree, when Aran'gar was reborn as a woman she/he still channeled saidin...now, I know it ain't the same but what I'm aiming for is that it is the soul that channels and the body have nothing to do with it. I agree with most you said about the Moridin/Rand relationship but I'm not so sure about your sealing the bore/no true power stuff...<br /><br />Very good theory overall!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 11:30:14
subject: <b>Thanks for the replies....</b>
body:
Yes, good point about Halima still channelling Saidin.  In my ... eagerness.. to post my thoughts, I kind of jumbled them all together. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />My main point was the bore is remaining open, due to the True Source constantly ... for lack of better word... pouring through it.  So the final battle, will do with Rand/ Moridin, and thier link.  And that flow of True Source, through the Bore/Hole, will stop somehow, allowing it to heal itself.  (Like clearing a wound of debris, allows it to heal properly, without infection ..taint.. *winks*, but thats another theory) Hehe.<br /><br />Thanks for the fast replies, and appreciate any and all comments, good or bad.<br />


created: 2006-02-05 11:41:35
subject: <b>Some of of the details...</b>
body:
...may be wrong as posted above, but you may have spoilt the story for us all. Only kidding. Your theory is kinda what I thought all along, you just linked it all together (Logain, Moridin and Alivia) and clarified things. Thanks!


created: 2006-02-05 14:27:34
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
i think that even now the other forsaken are able to access the true power, however they're not allowed to and are too scared to, but if moridin died/stilled, the others would still be able to channel the true power<br /><br />plus i think that logain &quot;mounting a black stone&quot; is more likely to be the black stone used at the black tower and that the body appearing to be rand but not, is taim, which is why logain laughs as he steps over it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 17:28:13
subject: <b>Logain Balefiring Rand, How is this possible</b>
body:
First of all Logain does not even know about Balefire let alone the weave to make it. Why would he Balefire Rand, or even the Rand now with Ishy inside, that would only revert the change, making the switch pointless? He is destined for glory as the savior, after Rand does the dirty work of confronting the DO head on. Logain is on the surface doing damage where all can see, and Rand does not reappear, thus the people look to the next most powerful and respected leader of the battle and all hail Logain. <br /><br />Other than the Balefire incident all the rest is exactly what I was thinking after KoD, the Perrin bit is new to me however, I am a believer of Avi/Min recognizing the change and sheltering Rand now in Moridins body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 13:51:14
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I have read the series many times and just started it again last week. I think it was on page 298 where Rand was having a dream and he hid himself with some mirrors and there were references to Rand's and Ish's face merging as one. I am at work or I could get the exact quote but it sure fits in with your theory right from book one.


created: 2006-02-06 15:09:04
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
I agree with a lot of it, but not entirely with all of the details.  My general thinking is this:<br /><br />Rand will end up living out a full life in Moridin's body, with his three women, as you suggested.  But, only a handful of people will be aware of this - most of the world will think he's dead (and that he died a hero, of course).  <br /><br />I like how you tied this idea in with the strangeness of Avi's babies.  I didn't think of that, but it's a good guess.<br /><br />And, both Moridin and LTT will die in Rand's body (if you can call LTT's final fate &quot;death&quot; ), as Rand is resurrected into Moridin's. <br /><br />As for how it will come about:<br /><br />1. Alivia's role - I like your speculation on her role, but I don't quite agree.  Mostly because the quote is &quot;she will help you die&quot;.  To me, this suggests that she will assist in Rand's death somehow, not just kill Moridin in Rand's body.<br /><br />So, what I think will happen is, at some point Rand's and Moridin's souls will both co-exist in Rand's body (as a result of some confrontation between the two), leaving Moridin's body similar to a Grey Man's (temporarily).  Alivia will, on Rand's orders, attack this body at SG and attempt to kill it (fulfilling that prophecy).  The body will be badly injured, spilling blood on the rocks of SG (to fulfill that prophecy).  I do agree with you that the death of Rand's body will be a crucial element in resealing the Bore fully.<br /><br />Alternately, Rand's body (with the 2 souls) will be dying as a result of his confrontation with Moridin (without Alivia being involved), and then Alivia will &quot;kill&quot; Rand's soul (as the body dies) in such a way that allows Nynaeve to resurrect it into Moridin's body (see below).  This killing of Rand's soul will also kill the LTT incarnation permanently.  I actually think this 2nd idea of Alivia's role is a bit more likely than the 1st.<br /><br />2. Nynaeve's role - You've omitted mentioning her at all, but I think she will also play a crucial role in all of this.  Mostly because of two quotes:<br /><br />From LoC &quot;A Matter of Thought&quot; - Elayne's PoV:<br /><br /><blockquote>... but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead.</blockquote><br /><br />And this, From WH &quot;A Cup of Tea&quot; - Elayne's PoV, Halwen Norry speaking:<br /><br /><blockquote>&quot;I myself would not believe him [Rand] dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.&quot;</blockquote><br /><br />Based on these quotes, and the parallels between Rand and Jesus, I think it highly likely that Nynaeve will play an instrumental role in resurrecting Rand's soul into Moridin's body, as Rand's own body lays dying/is dead on the rocks of SG.  And, the resurrection process will take 3 days.  Elayne, Avi, and Min will also be present as Nynaeve works her magic, I think.<br /><br />3. Elayne/Min/Avi roles - After the death of Rand's body and his resurrection, the body will be placed on a boat and the 3 women will accompany it as part of the honor procession (fulfilling the Wise Ones' dream and Nicola's Foretelling).  How this transpires, I have no idea.  Perhaps the body will be taken to Tar Valon first, for Rand to be honored there.  Then, the procession makes its way to Caemlyn, via Aringill, by boat down the Erinen.<br /><br />I do think that the 3 women will all know that Rand is alive in Moridin's body at this time, but they go through with the honoring of Rand in order to maintain the secret.<br /><br />4. Logain's role - After the boat episode, the body will be taken to Caemlyn, to be burned on a funeral pyre.  There, Logain will be honored for his heroics in the LB, and assume command of the Black Tower in Rand's stead (fulfulling Egwene's dream, and Min's vision of Logain's glory).  Taim will have been dealt with long before this, I believe.<br /><br />Anyway ... no so different from your ideas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 15:36:15
subject: <b>Bore</b>
body:
I agree with all of this theory, except for the idea that the bore doesn't heal up because of the True Source. I believe that the patch wasn't properly made in the first place. RJ puts alot of emphasis on balance, and I believe the True Source balances the True Power. Since the patch was made using only saidin, only 50% of the bore is sealed away; it lacks the neccesary saidir half.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 19:57:08
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
I like the body switch and the removal of the TP to reseal the bore. I think that as you said, Moridin's soul in Rand has to be killed, and the physical wound in Rand's side, which probably holds some TP form of evil, must be broken open on the rocks of SG for the bore to be fully remade.


created: 2006-02-06 23:44:18
subject: <b>almost...</b>
body:
I like this theory a lot, and I'm willing to entertain it, but there's a problem...<br /><br />Rand IS LTT. There will be no leaving him behind, because they inhabit the same soul. Rand can be reintegrated with LTT, and then switch, or they can both go to Moridin's body, but they can't separate.<br /><br />Personally, I think this would make the twice his blood is shed prophecy much easier to understand, and a happy-ending much easier to obtain...and I want a happy ending, because after all the crap he's gone through, Rand deserves it...he didn't have to sheathe the sword, he could've stayed on the farm...


created: 2006-02-06 23:58:20
subject: <b>First clue to Rand and Mordin joining</b>
body:
On page 296 of the hard cover tEotW, Flight Down the Arinelle, Rand is trying to escape Ba'alzamon in a dream. Rand escapes into a room of mirros and looks at his own image in a mirror.<br /><br />&quot;In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He (Rand) wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirros. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.&quot;<br /><br />Could be some forshawdowing of a merge. I am not sure that it would be a great trade though, what with all the damage Moridin has done using the TS... saa and all... I'd rather be without a hand.


created: 2006-02-07 09:57:36
subject: <b>Not bad</b>
body:
You bring together alot of other people's ideas and speculations from the message board into one theory that seems to answer many of the questions.  Could be so, certainly one of the better ideas I have seen in a while.  The only problem I have is that is has become very fashionable to interpret Min's viewing as pertaining to Rand and Moridin.  I'm not saying it won't happen, but for years we all thought it was Rand and LTT.  I know, maybe that was a red herring, but sometimes the simplest ideas are the best ones.  I am not willing to throw out that Alivia helps Rand to die in his body, and Nynaeve somehow heals death.  Still, I think this theory is at least as likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 11:25:26
subject: <b>The best</b>
body:
Although I've been reading theories along time, this is my first post,and I've got to say your theory is the best,a  very likely conclusion to this saga.And the comments from the other theorist just goes to show ,how close you could be.My only hope is that a happy ending occurs, ( I'm a hard core Ghetto dweller, but sappy all the same.)and that R.J. won't keep us waiting to long.  P.S. Some of you guys are smart as hell!


created: 2006-02-10 01:13:46
subject: <b>Some Good Points my friend</b>
body:
I would have to agree with you at least to a point, I do believe that the Last Battle will be more of something between Moridin, being the Champion of the Shadow, and the Dragon Reborn, being the champion of the Light.  This fight as Ishy has always said, is something that has happened in every age every lifetime that these two shared.  The outcome of this fight, will determine if the Dark One comes free from his prison, and breaks the Wheel of Time.  Its safe to say that Rand will NOT destroy the DarkOne, its not possible, Rand, Dragon Reborn or not, is not the Creator.  Plus, even if this is the &quot;Final&quot; Battle, this &quot;Final&quot; battle has been fought more times as the ages spun around.  This could be the 5000th Final Battle, and Jordan did say there is nothing special about this turning.  So..if...and there is still alot of things we don't know, but we know at least that Rand and Moridin will fight again, and we will experience the same Drama filled conflict we did in &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot; when Rand actually killed Ishmael.  <br /><br />     So we know that Rand's body is taking some series damage, The wound from Ishy's staff, the cut from Fain's Dagger, the loose of a hand and what we assume will be his loose of sight from Semi's fire, lets face it, he is falling apart.  We all hope for a happy endding, he deserves it, but I would hate to see our hero live out his days after sacrificing everything with half a body and who can't channel without sicking up.  ANoter thing we know, there is a connection between Moridin, and Rand, the more time goes by, the stronger is seems to be getting, another thing we know, Moridin has no idea what is happening, this is something new, their minds are connected.<br /><br />     Rand seems to be a brillent planner, if this is something from Lews we don't know, hopefully I would like to think its our farm boy, I think he is starting to realize what is happening, and will engage Moridin not on a field of battle at TG, but in T'A'R, or maybe even a new playing field, the two of their minds.  I think this is the best theory that can fall into place with what RJ has given us...<br /><br />For the final stroke though, the act of which the prison is remade, well...that remains to be seen.<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-26 15:25:19
subject: <b>&quot;Link Battle&quot;</b>
body:
I think this is a valid theory, but what if Rand didn't go so far as to switch fully, what if he just pawned Lews Therin off on Moridin? Then Moridin/LTT could be the Dragon who is killed at Shayol Ghul. This way the true source is done being channeled (Moridin is dead-can't channel it anymore) so the bore can be closed. Maybe Alivia helps Rand in the &quot;Link battle&quot; and because Rand and LTT were the same person at the time of Min's viewing the one that Alivia helps to die is LTT, and Min was just confused by the same body issue.


created: 2006-03-20 17:15:55
subject: <b>Die</b>
body:
The theory is valid and very well researched. It ties off alot of things that RJ has implied in his books. One point I disagree on is the nature of Rands &quot;death&quot;. In one of Mins viewings she said that she saw Rand and someone else merge and that one of them was going to die. She also said that Alivia is going to help Rand die. When a person dies it usually means that he was old or he had a sickness and his body couldn't go on any longer and he died. Rand is known to have some sort of dizziness that comes over him when he takes hold of the One power. This is seperate from LTT trying to take control of Saidin. So what if Rand is dying, it would mean that he progressed further in the wasting sickness before he was able to clean the taint. RJ said in one of his interviews before he wrote WH that the Ashaman would still suffer from madness or the wasting sickness even if the Taint was removed. The removing of the taint would not have healed them from its effects but would stop it from progressing. Rands body is being run down and his continual use of the one power is slowly killing him. <br /> What if the merger causes Rands body to finally give up and start shutting down. Then what if Alivia stopped anyone from trying to heal him. We already know from WH that she is stronger than Nynaeve and could stop her from helping Rand. So the points I'm trying to make are:<br />1. Rands body is weak and is getting weaker every time he uses the One power.<br />2. The merger that will take place with Rand and Moridin will cause Rands body to die and the soul of whoever is in Rands body.<br />3. Alivia will prevent Nynaeve and anyone else from healing Rand and thus help him to die.


created: 2006-05-23 16:38:52
subject: <b>The Forgotten Hero</b>
body:
I agree with most everything in this theory, but has everyone forgotten Min's viewing about Moiraine? Min mentions early on that Rand cannot win without her. Win what though? Min figured it was the Last Battle, but Moiraine is gone. The thing is, where did she go? We assume she died because of Lan's bond passing to another Aes Sedai. We know that Moiraine had a viewing of her battle with Lanfear in Rhuidean. We also know that a bond can be passed at will. And we know that Lan's bond was taken care of ahead of time. Min also mentioned in CoS that this viewing was the only one that had ever failed.<br /> Let's address where Moiraine went to. The first arch she went through, she was abel to ask three questions and get three answers. as we know from Mat, the second arch deals with making a bargin and the exchanging of something. This would be the perfect place for Moiraine to learn things.<br /> What does this have to do with the Last Battle. I don't think it has anything to do with the battle itself, but rather the sealing of the Bore. Remember that the Bore was opened by Male and Female Aes Sdeai. I'm pretty sure it's going to take both to close it up again. But noone knows how. Well, Moiraine is in the perfect place to learn how.<br />And also remember, time is different in the other plane of existance


created: 2006-09-06 00:54:38
subject: <b>Nice Theory, but 2 (minor) points</b>
body:
I like the theory, very inventive and insightful. But I have 2 issues<br /><br />1) The Bore/Seal: I think that the reason the Seals are failing is becuase only Saidin was used, not Saidir and Saidin together (as in all the greatest works of AS).<br /><br />2) The TS. I remember reading that the True Source could only be accessed with the DO's assent. Somehow, I think the DO would know if its Rand in Moridin's body. We know the ability to channel is connected to the soul, not the body (Aran'gar/Balthamel a saidin user). I'm assuming the TS works the same way (admittedly a bit of a logical leap).<br /><br />This 2nd point would also lean against the TS being the answer to sealing the Prison, as it is a tool of the DO, while saidin/saidir were made by the Creator.<br />


created: 2007-01-12 01:16:15
subject: <b>interesting, but...</b>
body:
i'll admit at first i didnt like the idea of rand all of the sudden in a new body to finish off the series. the whole change thing is rough on me. but as pointed out by a few people, rand's body is in no shape to continue on and while moridin isnt the best replacement due to his use of the TS, it's better than nothing.  <br />but i have even more trouble with the fact that rand (in ishys body) will use the TS to seal the bore. not only will the DO cut him off before he can finish the job (if rand can tap it in the first place) but in sealing the bore, he will seal himself off from the TS, therefore leaving it still slightly unstable. anyways, i have always thought there needs to be more than just a patch or a plug to get back to the point on the wheel where there is no bore. but thats totally different.<br />anyways,<br />love your thought process and all this trying to predict, but RJ will still find some way to surprise us. more fun that way


created: 2007-05-27 19:00:32
subject: <b>meh</b>
body:
I somewhat agree with this theory, I think that the body switch is perfectly viable, however, i do not believe that Rand would be able to channel the TP if this occured.<br /><br />This is because it has been shown many times throughout the books that the use of the OP is based on the soul, not the body ( a perfect example being Aran'gar). If this is true for the OP, it should also be true for the TP, because they show many of the same characteristics, and i do not believe the DO to be so primitive as to allow a foreigner to channel his lifes blood.


created: 2007-09-01 21:52:34
subject: <b>My 2 cents</b>
body:
I agree in part with this theory, as I came up with something very similar myself. Here are my thoughts on the whole Rand/Moridin/Bore Sealing subject:<br /><br />&quot;I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.&quot; ~ a viewing from Min in A Crown of Swords, chapter 33.<br /><br />Rand believed that this viewing meant that Lews Therin and he would merge and become one again. However, this doesn't seem to be the case, as he still hears Lews Therin in his head and even had his body taken over during the attack on the manor house in Tear. I believe that this viewing actually refers to Rand and Moridin/Ishamael. <br /><br />In the last book Rand and Moridin will somehow merge into one another. This will come about because of what happened when Rand chased Sammael to Shadar Logoth. When Moridin and Rand's balefire streams touched, a connection was forged between them. This connection was made clear near the end of Knife of Dreams when Rand saw Moridin's face when he experienced his peculiar sickness while seizing Saidin. He could see that Moridin was also experiencing the sickness, showing the connection is reciprocal. It is actually this connection that causes the sickness, and it will not go away until one or the other is dead.<br /><br />The reason why this could happen is because balefire is the only mechanism available to truly alter the pattern.  Balefire works by unraveling the specific portion of the pattern that it touches, and the stronger it is, the more it unravels. In Rand and Moridin's case, their respective balefire streams touched, causing not an unraveling, but an interweaving of their two life threads. Two life threads can not occupy the same space in the pattern, thus one will live and one will die.<br /><br />All of this ties into the Prophecies of the Dragon, specifically to this passage: &quot;Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth. Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.&quot; <br /><br />I believe that Moridin will win the struggle when he and Rand begin to fully integrate, taking over Rand's body. During the struggle Rand's wound will split open and begin bleeding. Moridin will then go to Shayol Ghul to free the Dark One completely, spilling &quot;Rand's&quot; blood in the Pit of Doom. The only way for the Dark One to be freed completely will be to take over the body so that he can interact with the world. At some point after that Alivia will use balefire on Moridin/the Dark One to such an extent that the day will be unraveled to the point that it will dawn again. This will ultimately leave Rand alive, though he will now be in Moridin's old body, and trap the Dark One outside of time and space. This action will reconstitute a whole and sound prison for the Dark One, instead of just repairing the one he was already in, as I believe Herid Fel mentions must be done.


created: 2007-10-07 07:19:40
subject: <b>LUC is the KEY</b>
body:
Once again everyone is forgeting that the Key to winning the Last Battle lies in the Royal House of Andor, a prediction made by Elaida.  In the Great Hunt, the dark prophecy left in Fal Dara states, Luc (which is from the Royal Line of Andor, Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom, Isam waited in the High Passes, One did live, and one did Die, but both are.  Gitara, the same Aes Sedai that predicted that the Dragon was finally reborn and then died right in front of Moiraine and Suian when they where young.  Well, if you think back, becuase I can't remember what book it was in. But if you think back, it was Gitara that told Luc that it was his destiny to go to the Blight and that something depended on his going, the world or the Last Battle, cant remember which.  She is also the one that sent Luc's sister Tagraine into the Waste.  Now do you think Gitara told Luc to risk his life and go to Shayol Ghul for nothing?  She must have had a fortelling to send both of them off to the places she did.  Now why would Luc's merging with Isam have anything to do with the Last Battle.  It has to have something to do with the Merger, thats the only thing Luc has done in series is the merger.  Luc/Isam both keep their appearance, Luc can look like Luc in the real world, and in TAR its Isam/Slayer's form.  One did live and did die, but both are.  When Rand and Moridin merge, not if but when, I dont think there will be two bodies left.  One body will die.  Maybe the Royal Line of Andor (Luc) has a change of heart and comes to shed some light on the subject on how to win the merger! Everyone just keeps forgetting the fact that the Aes Sedai responsible for the birth of the Dragon, is responsible for the merger of Isam and Luc.  She would not send a prince from Andor to the Mountains of Dhoom without some kind of FORESIGHT!!!!


created: 2008-02-11 14:35:37
subject: <b>A couple of items to consider</b>
body:
Everyone mentions a whole and sound prison that will lock the Dark One outside of Time and Space...several of the posts on this thread describe how the various techniques that could seal the Bore would result in a shaky, unstable seal at best.  Don't forget that the Bore was originally drilled through a &quot;thinness in the Pattern.&quot;  These different techniques could be what created the thin spot in the Pattern in the first place; unless, you believe that an Omnipotent Creator built a second-class prison for the Dark One.  <br /><br />This thin spot is mentioned in several sources, one of them being (I believe)in Lord of Chaos, where Moghedien visits the Pit of Doom and the text states (phrasing may not be verbatim) &quot;Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other, but there was a thinness in the pattern here that allowed the Great Lord's presence to be felt...&quot;<br /><br />Another item referenced was Gitara Moroso's Foretelling that the key to winning the Last Battle lay in the Royal Line of Andor...while the theory about Luc/Isam is interesting (and may become important in the last novel,) this Key is clearly about Tigraine leaving Andor to become a Maiden of the Spear (Shaiel,) allowing her to give birth to Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount.<br /><br />Remember Occam's Razor when attempting to interpret Prophecy...the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.<br /><br />Just wanted to add my two cents to the discussion<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Joval273<br /><br />The Ashanderei is the Weapon of a King</font><p></p>


created: 2009-03-30 08:24:03
subject: <b>again?</b>
body:
This is not the first time this theary has been brought up ,but I dont think that is on the money.I think Rand will keep his body and maybe LTT will transfer to Moridin.The women could never love the body of moridin,they would think of it as unnatural.I dont know what will happen ,but not that.


created: 2006-02-05 07:14:47
subject: <b>Are I wrong</b>
body:
but dosent Moridin say somewhere that the saa dosen't effect his vision even when they are streaming past?<br /><br />I'm quiet sure that he thinks that somewhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 09:16:21
subject: <b>yes, when you say it...</b>
body:
...I'm almost certain that is the case. Saa doesn't affect the channelers vision. However, Moridin has been using it for some time and it might be something that you have to get used too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 11:09:43
subject: <b>RE: Moridin's vision</b>
body:
Moridin has had Saa now for two lifetimes in effect. He's life as Ishamael and his new reincarnated life, he's had time to get used to the effects but you're right I don't belive saa does effect vision. I believe Jordan was using the fireball strike as cover. After all his eyes have been injured but normally bright light in the series produces purple spots, this produced black spots/flecks. Nynaeve comments on the eyes, she's a healer and an Aes Sedai, she's seen balefire a few times as well and so knows how bright that is and how brightness effects the eyes. Yet she comments on the eyes, something she doesn't recognise or know how to fix. Yet she doesn't try and heal him. That seems odd to me. Nynaeve is the worlds greatest healer, she was the first to heal stilling and helped heal two huge wounds (the taint and Shadar Logoth), she has been cautious while healing but always wants to try, yet this time she doesn't. It's entirely possible that it's because it's Rand and she doesn't want to kill him but normally she just goes cautiously instead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WOT?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine rules O.K? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Winter is coming</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-05 14:33:20
subject: <b>Saa as metaphore</b>
body:
RJ uses the eyes as a way to reflect the soul in WOT, Perrin has golden eyes and mordin's eyes (ie soul) is being corrupted (that's the terrible price of using TP). Also Saa come on gradually, if you will recall when mordin first appeared and started channeling TP only one fleck or two would cross his vision, and then only infrequently.<br />As for the balefire, i assumed it created a paradox of Ishy's balefire made Rands not exist and visa versa so then they were not there to make the other one not exist. SO they channeled without channeling, etc (bad stuff happened). As for a connection: does rand have any significant mood swings or anything? I don't remmember that happening. I agree something is going on, i just don't know what.


created: 2006-02-05 15:04:04
subject: <b>Rand doesn't have the saa</b>
body:
It doesn't affect the vision.<br /><br />I think Rand's ideas are wrong concerning Moridin.<br /><br />IMHO the connections between their souls (totally different from the warder bond, more in the vein of the LTT-Rand relationship, and possibly similar to the connections betwen the three ta'veren as well) has begun long before that. For me the wound of True Power given by Ishamael in Falme is what started the process that eventually allowed Shai'tan to tie Moridin and Rand's souls, when Ishamael die in Tear or more precisely when he was transmigrated as Moridin.<br /><br />Like LTT this took some time to emerge, and eventually LTT noticed the third man. Rand feels/sees him now too.<br /><br />It is very similar to LTT-Rand. In KoD LTT began to see through Moridin's eyes, making comments about Perrin and Mat having fun at the Ansaline Gardens while he needed them. He clearly saw their TAR puppets during the Forsaken meeting to say something like that.<br /><br />The reference to Shadar Logoth is worthless I think. That's derived from the fact the encounter in SL is the only thing LTT/Rand can think of regarding Moridin. LTT won't be able to puzzle anything truthful until/unless he figures out one way or another or is told that Moridin is Ishamael.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 04:54:51
subject: <b>I like the idea</b>
body:
Moridin just means that the saa don't make him blind, but nevertheless it's often said that in his PoV that Moridin can see the saa when they occur:<br /><br />&quot;Black flecks floated across his vision&quot;, and &quot;black flecks sped across his eyes, faster, faster&quot; and &quot;the black flecks filled his eyes, a horizontal blizzard.&quot; (ACoS, ch.20),<br /><br />Or:<br />&quot;Fury boiled suddenly in Moridin's head, and black flecks swam across his eyes as he seized the True Power&quot;, and &quot;the saa were a blizzard of black, but they did not hinder his sight.&quot; (PoD, prologue)<br /><br />Finally:<br />&quot;He seized the True Power without thought, the saa billowing black across his sight.&quot; (PoD, ch.2)<br /><br />The same applies to the scene with Rand in KoD, ch.27.<br />Rand thinks that &quot;black flecks shimmered in his vision, and everything seemed faintly hazy, as if seen through water.&quot;<br /><br />Rand can still see, he isn't blind, but he notes the black flecks. That's similar to Moridin's saa experiences. <br />As shown, even the words &quot;black flecks&quot; are the same like Moridin often uses to describe his saa. <br /><br />But I also believe the fact that &quot;everything seemed faintly hazy&quot; is definitely attributed to the fireball, because a bit later Rand still thinks that &quot;the black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water&quot;.<br /><br />That Rand sees saa would make sense because it would be a further example that Rand and Moridin merge more &amp; more.<br />It will be interesting to see how that connection affects Moridin.<br /><br />So, even if the black flecks were indeed only a result of the fireball attack, thumbs up for the original idea!


created: 2006-02-07 09:32:29
subject: <b>I vote no</b>
body:
Rand does not have the saa. He has not channelled the true power, even accidentally through his connection to Moridin.  If he had, he would know it because channelling the true power creates a euphotic feeling that is even more addictive than channelling saidin or saidar.  Now, maybe, and I mean maybe, Moridin felt what happenned to Rand and was channelling to try to figure it out. Since he uses the TP exclusively, maybe Rand was seeing through Moridin's eyes as their connection becomes closer.  Maybe, but I doubt it. <br /><br />Also, why would Rand take on any of Moridin's characteristics because of this connection?  Should we expect Moridin to not be able to use his left hand now? I see it as the same as the connection to Mat and Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 14:01:17
subject: <b>can't be saa</b>
body:
If I recall correctly, problems with Rand's eyes are mentioned two or three times in KoD (I don't have the book on hand, though). I'm pretty sure that at least one of those times, Rand described the sensation as being water, or looking at things as though he was under water. Since the Saa aren't supposed to hinder your vision, this kinda points away from that. Additionally, wasn't there some sort of prophecy or something that alludes to Rand being blind? Min's visions or Egwene's or Perrin's dreams? Just a though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In war, you say a prayer for your dead and ride on, because there is always another fight over the next horizon.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-10 22:44:16
subject: <b>it was the saa</b>
body:
Rand in fact saw 'black flecks.' The fact that this happens after he gets hits by Semi and happens to see things as though through water is a diversion by RJ to keep people from seeing the fact that Rand saw the saa for a second. Rand seeing the saa is part of a much larger plot event for the next book.


created: 2006-02-13 22:46:40
subject: <b>It's not beyond the realm of possibility</b>
body:
but it strongly crosses the line of probability. True, they are connected in some bizarre way, and they are starting to be more aware of eachother's presence, both intellectually and physically. But it seems that neither really has control of the bond in any way. In other words, Moridin isn't causing Rand's sickness, it happens when Rand tries to grab the Source. In the same vein, Moridin shouldn't be able to make Rand see the saa.<br /><br />So if it was the saa that Rand was seeing, that would mean that the event had to happen right when he was hit by a fireball... a fireball close enough and hot enough to burn off his hand. The chances of those two things happening on their own would require Mat Cauthan odds. It's much more likely that the searing hot sphere of flame is the victim here. Rand didn't get blinded by light, he got his eyeballs melted.<br /><br />See saa? Probably not. Seesaw? ...Maybe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-14 11:27:28
subject: <b>Hrm</b>
body:
Could it be that Mordin seized the TP though Rand, and used it to protect Rand somehow from Semi's attack? We did hear early in the book that no other Forsaken were supposed to attack Rand. So Mordin sees what&#8217;s going to happen to Rand and does something with the TP though Rand, this stops the &quot;majority&quot; of the fireball damage, just taking his hand, and gives the others a moment to capture Semi. Rand is unaware of what happened because of the blast/shock. He sees the Saa though because Mordin seized the TP though his body, just like LTT seized Saidin though Rand when fighting the Trollics. I dunno, more food for thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-21 16:55:30
subject: <b>It is possible</b>
body:
Rand and Moridin crossed Balefire...what if there are more than erasing threads consequences associated with it's use. Also, I buy into the theory that Semi wanted to be captured but as Tuon, therefore Moridin did not need to save Rand. See scalius theory Semihage Capture: A Review. So, it is possible that Rand could be seeing saa as a side effect of balefire, merge that is foreshadowed et al.


created: 2006-04-18 03:25:54
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Perhaps somehow Rand, in a panic (and out of a conscious and sub-conscious fear of seizing the OP) inadvertantly used the TP to destroy Semi's fireball before it melted his head (but after it consumed his hand).  This accidental channelling / xploding fireball impact rendered him unconsious and w/ no recollection of having used the TP or how he did.  <br /><br />I know it is a stretch but hey, why the hell not.


created: 2006-05-01 19:46:33
subject: <b>Excellent theory, breaks new ground for me.</b>
body:
As I said in the title, this theory has opened my eyes to a whole lot more.<br /><br />What if the sickness is indeed part of Rand's link to Moridin? Remember, reaching the Source is tough for him now (for a moment). Also remember that, when you first start using the Source, when you reach out, you can't always grasp it. With the merging, it is possible that Rand must reach [i]across[/i] the True Power in order to touch Saidin. During the Semirhage encounter, he reached for Saidin and found himself wallowing in a pool of TP, hence his consternation and the Saa. <br /><br />The possibility of Rand's access to the TP is a very, very interesting one, and might just be the key to Tarmon Gaidon. It's time I take a look at the theories on the nature of the TP, if there are any.


created: 2006-05-25 10:55:03
subject: <b>you're all reading to much into this.</b>
body:
Black flecks dancing across your vision are also how RJ describes getting near knocked silly.<br /><br />Take the scene in LOC for example.  [LOC: Lion of the hill pg 65]<br /><br />&quot;For a moment rand wavered his vision a blur of black flecks&quot;<br /><br />In this case its just rand getting knocked on the head.


created: 2009-07-31 15:49:57
subject: <b>Evidence against Rand having Saa</b>
body:
In Knife of Dreams, page 578:<br /><br />&quot;Faile saw black flecks floating across her vision before she realised that she had been slapped.&quot;<br /><br />I think it's unlikely the TP came into play there. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />This was just a nice red herring by Jordan at most, but more likely just him being realistic about the damage an explosion causes.  Remember, he was in the military, I'd say it's not a stretch to guess that wanted to make the statement that when we hear of injuries at war, it's easy to forget the accompanying factors like shock and temporary blinding/deafness when explosives are used (no deafness here since the fireball power-wrought).


created: 2006-02-06 08:45:06
subject: <b>Already said this on the WoT MB: I like it!</b>
body:
Semirhage could have learned about Rand's location in Tear through Bashere's visit of the Seanchan.<br /><br />Since I only occasionally lurked in the past months, I'm not really aware who else was seriously suggested as the sender of the Shadowspawn. But if I remember correctly especially kcf brought forward the argument that it was Demandred because he wanted to test Rand's defense.<br />I think the motive for Semirhage which sidious pointed out in this theory makes more sense. <br />Semirhage is certainly capable of such a plan.<br /><br />I also agree that the reactions of the Forsaken at the Garden Party rather speak for Semirhage than for Demandred. <br /><br />Good job, sidious!


created: 2006-02-06 09:24:21
subject: <b>The idea is a good one...but...</b>
body:
I of course still support the idea that it was Demandred. I think Demandred has a greater motive to test Rand's defensive tactics and the degree to which he has LTT's skill with the OP.<br /><br />This late in the series I don't think RJ is trying to make this one too mysterious for us, since the identity of whoever did send the shadowspawn is not really of any great importance. He gives us the answer from Aran'gar's POV. <br /><br />There is a slight chance that they did work together on this, but I doubt that as well.<br /><br />The biggest reason I think that it wasn't Semirhage, is that she has plans of her own. The last thing she wants to do is spook him in some way that destroys her plan. Had things turned out much different, Rand may have been spooked from honoring the meeting with the DotNM. Semirhage's comments in the Garden are due to the potential threat the shadowspawn pose to her own plan. This is further evident when she essentially let's her emotions show in regards to Mat and Perrin's identities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 12:37:17
subject: <b>Makes sense.</b>
body:
We already know Semi's skilled enough at illusion to pose as little Tuon, so Sammael would be quite doable for her.  (taking into account that she's compensated for heights/etc in past illusions)<br /><br />Definitely makes sense.  But plenty of sensible theories have been debunked by later books... though I think this one is solid enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 14:20:55
subject: <b>The weak link...</b>
body:
... is why Demandred would have known about her plan. <br /><br />You'll never convince me she just gave him the information without reason. In that case, it's more likely they shared the benefits of the attack and planned it together. <br /><br />Or Demandred might have been spying on her for the future, and therefore knew she did it, but throws out the false lead to honour their treaty now. It could also have been a warning to Semi; &quot;I know what you're up to, don't stray too far&quot;.<br /><br />I don't really get the motives straight here. No one lets information slip without reason.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 16:11:25
subject: <b>Its an option...</b>
body:
...and better reasoned than I thought it would be, though I still think that Taim is the more likely choice.  <br /><br />I think it's a bit hasty to assume that Semirhage knows where Rand is staying.  As I recall, Logain was the one opening the gateways, and Semirhage wouldn't be able to read those residues without help.  Taim knows where rand is staying because Algarin told him.  <br /><br />My big question is this...if semirhage tells mesaana and demandred of her plans, they would wonder why this attack was necessary while all of rand's defenses are consolidated in one place.  Semirhage could come up with an unconvincing lie and risk losing the small semblance of trust which exists between them, or she could tell them her plan...if that happens, why were Mesaana and demandred not present to help at the capture?  It's a lot of ifs, but I think that it's a logical train of thought.  Demandred was a great general in the AOL, and he would certainly object to such a waste of resources so close to TG.  <br /><br />Overall, it's a good theory, but still a second choice at best<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 17:26:42
subject: <b>perhaps...</b>
body:
It has been commented a lot that the &quot;battle&quot; with semirhage was really short, especially since all of the other battles for the Forsaken were much longer and more dramatic (they took up more book space). So I propose that Semirhage didn't nessesarily want to kill Rand, it would have just been a bonus. She probably has some grander plan that involves graendal and possibly demandred. Rand mentions that semirhage was captured before, but managed to &quot;convince&quot; her guards to actually assist her in escaping. I think that Semirhage planned to be captured and then work from the inside.


created: 2006-02-06 18:10:56
subject: <b>My thoughts...</b>
body:
...are such that I think that Semirhage's capture was part of her/Moridin's plan. She still could have sent the trollocs, why I'm not sure...actually I hav eno Idea who sent them...just that I don't thin Semirhage did it for those reasons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 18:50:18
subject: <b>Not Semirhage's Game</b>
body:
I certainly think that this is more plausible a theory than &quot;It was her plan to get captured&quot;. The Forsaken can make mistakes; Be'lal was 10 times the more cunning planner than the rest of them put together (he's called Netweaver!), and he was undone by some poxy 3rd Age Aes Sedai. So Semirhage's embarrasing capture is precisely that: Rand's party pwned her, old-school.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Niv-Mizzet, will you ever learn? You toast bread, NOT people! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 22:54:49
subject: <b>Well, it's better than the theories that Fain or Taim did it, at least.</b>
body:
Unlike with those other two, we know for a fact that Semirhage a) is able to masquerade as another person, b) knew what Sammael looked like, and c) has the ability to command that many Fades.<br /><br />I tend to lean toward Demandred, but I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed if it turned out to have been Semirhage, or any of the other Forsaken.


created: 2006-02-06 23:13:07
subject: <b>No Way</b>
body:
There is really no direct evidence of this. That of course is not to say that this theory is false; after all, this is a work of Robert Jordan's and he is sneaky.<br /><br />The main reason that I voted against this theory is that it doesn't explain how Semi knew where Rand was. Maybe she divined his location via some kind of ta'vereen effect. But in that case, why didn't she, Demandred, and Mesaana come too?<br /><br />All in all, this is just way too far-fetched. My personal guess is that a.) it really was Sammael, or b.) it was Padan Fain. I believe b.) to be much more likely. Fain has the ability to track Rand, motive, and would not want to get personally involved.


created: 2006-02-06 23:39:13
subject: <b>I said it before, I'll say it again,</b>
body:
I like it a lot. Good stuff. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 00:06:26
subject: <b>can't be fain</b>
body:
throughout the series fain has expressed his desire to be the one to kill rand and for rand to know it, why then would he send thousands of trollocs to do something he has been obsessing over for years now??


created: 2006-02-07 12:44:15
subject: <b>agree with the theory</b>
body:
but not with the motive. As others have said, I think that Semi wanted to get captured. The attack on Rand with the trollocs made him desperate for a treaty with the DotNM so that even after Semi got captured, Rand's first idea is that he still needs a truce with the Seanchean. It was a means of making Rand, already paranoid, blind to the real trick of having Semi as a prisoner that can still do harm to his plans. Why would there be that allusion to Semi being a prisoner before and being able to still wreak havoc on the side of light? RJ has to use that theme for Semi. Asmodean was captured, he got killed. Moghedien got captured, she got mind-trapped. No one wants that fate, so how, how could Semi have been beaten so easily and taken captive? We had Rand's POV, who got thrown down early, so we don't even know how Semi was captured. Maybe some of his party are DF and were in on the 'capture' of Semi. It was almost too perfect a set up- Semi captured easily, a few sad bracelets, IMHO, ready to be found- it just stinks of trap.


created: 2006-02-07 15:56:33
subject: <b>Alternate Supporting Evidence for Taim?</b>
body:
RJ threw in Lord Algarin's ability to channel for no apparent reason. This makes me think that RJ intends to have Taim know where Rand is, so he can attack him. Maybe. Who knows, really?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 22:41:20
subject: <b>I dissagree</b>
body:
The Forsaken who sent the Trollocs after Rand, posing as Sammael, had to be someone with a reason to hide what they were doing from Moridin. Cyndane comes to mind... We know she wants Rand dead, but she can't do it openly. The only way she could do it is by pretending to be someone who has seemingly gone into hiding; only Moridin knows that Sammael is dead. Cyndane has been less active that any of the other Forsaken who were resurected, she's too strong a caracter to stay under someone's thumb without a fight.<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-10 00:37:52
subject: <b>to sidious</b>
body:
You say that Semi sent the trollocs after Rand (which I totally agree with) but that her intent was to decimate his allies to make him weak and beatable at the meeting with the DotNM. However, my problem is that if she did want to beat Rand, and so sent the trollocs, why didn't she cheat and just bring way more channelers against him at the meeting. Going behind the back of the nae'blis is much worse than breaking the rules at a double-cross with the DR...unless she meant to get captured. So I just don't agree with your motive. If she was willing to send the trollocs, she would have been better prepared for the battle against Rand. I personally think she meant to be captured and used the trollocs to keep Rand off balance for after her capture.


created: 2006-02-20 02:58:12
subject: <b>I bore a hole</b>
body:
She did cheat. The channelers were meant to be equal, but she brought herself too. So she had one extra channeler.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-25 10:45:16
subject: <b>All interesting points</b>
body:
But there are a few things with this theory.<br /><br />I haven't seen one person state the obvious conclusion here, that Moridin, the man already half linked to rand, sent the trollocs.  He uses the Sammael line to throw the other forsaken off balance and suspect each other, since he is the only one who knows for sure that Sammael is dead.<br /><br />The easiest answer, and the answer posed by Rand himself would be the simplest.<br /><br />Also, that battle would have gone much worse for rand and co. if Logain handn't shown up.  Just like the battle with semirhage would have been much worse if Cadsuane and Nyneve couldn't since channeling with ter'angreal.<br /><br />If not for those ter'angreal Semirhages plan would have worked.  Rand and his party would have been shielded, not the other way around.


created: 2007-02-07 21:02:32
subject: <b>No she didn't</b>
body:
In KoD, At the Gardens<br />&quot;Aran'gar took a sip of her wine. She had no objections to lkilling these two [Mat and Perrin] if she happened to come across them, but Moridin was going to be terribly disappointed over Rand al'Thor&quot;<br /><br />Earlier in the same chapter Moridin states: &quot;...The time and manner of al'Thor's death will be at my choosing. No one else.&quot;<br /><br />Pretty cut and dried. Aran'gar, whilst impersonating Sammael, ordered the attack on Rand in Tear.


created: 2006-02-06 07:31:37
subject: <b>If there was such a balance...</b>
body:
Why wasn't it upset by saidar being almost exclusively used for thousands of years? The Aes Sedai do a good job of gentling the male channelers, the Seanchan do the same, and etc.<br /><br />Also, other cultures HAVE men channeling. Shara, for example, use men for channeling. The Aiel men die quickly. But, then, we have the Land of Madman.<br /><br />Basically, a few hundred asha'man isn't a big deal. If anything, the Power, according to your theory, should be getting stronger as the balance is brought to equal proportions.<br /><br />I just don't get it. The Power is getting closer to being evenly spread for the first time since the AOL. I just don't see how this theory makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 09:07:33
subject: <b>I disagree as well</b>
body:
As I understand it, only the saidar Keepings fail, not saidar per se, or?<br /><br />In my view the reason is that the vermin and the rotting process simply the more grow stronger, the more the DO influences the world.<br />The Blight spreads, so to speak, and even One Power Keepings can't stop it anymore. <br /><br />For that matter, I believe that also saidin Keepings would fail.


created: 2006-02-06 09:36:19
subject:
<b>Not balance... maybe how things work... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
My posit:  <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Not a change in balance in my opinion.  Simply because a thing goes unused does not make it less.  Saidin has always been there, whether or not the power was being tapped.  This kind of power can't be balanced and unbalanced simply because it can or cannot be accessed.  There's too much of both happening all the time regardless of what mere people and demigods are doing.  And anyhow, if the balance had shifted so greatly, how would the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sisters be doing anything at all?  It&#8217;s like saying that if there were more good there would be less evil.  We&#8217;d all like to believe that, but the truth is it would probably be less obvious evil in the same amounts.  For some reason, out of sight really is out of mind for most of us.  It's not used so it's not there?  Come on!<br /><br />However, I believe when they (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />Rand, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Nyneave, et al) removed the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> taint from Saidin and used both Saidin and Saidar with the Bowl of the Winds they somehow changed the way things work.  Specifically, how the One Power functions as each specific piece: i.e. spirit, fire, water, earth, air.  Each type of the Power being used is now changed power.  Again.<br /><br />Let me explain that last.  Remember how in Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />, especially during the tests and trainings the Novices, some of the old weaves didn't work anymore but the girls (and here I&#8217;m thinking &quot;New Spring&quot; with <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Moiraine) still had to learn them?  All one hundred weaves and some just made pretty lights and some didn't do anything they could detect.  I wonder now how many of them would work properly now since the Bowl of the Winds was used to cleanse Saidin?  Probably a very few.  I think every time such a change is made, like the taint of the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Dark One on Saidin, it alters how the One Power can be used in many, many ways on both sides of Saidin and Saidar.  Some of the changes will be years, maybe centuries, in unraveling if ever.<br /><br />Big stuff the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai have always done may not change so very much at all.  I'm thinking some of the big stuff is also some of the simplest stuff weave-wise.  I mean its weave and throw it in the bad guy's face, really.  It&#8217;s the weight of power used that makes it mighty, in most of the big stuff (balefire, shielding, compulsion, cutting an opponent off from the One Power, and the like).  Traveling seems to require a hefty amount both power and concentration, but it seems to be one of the few things that does when it comes to combat tactics (yes, both retreat and surprise attack).  Quite honestly, day-to-day not many <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai use that much Saidar.  Its usually small stuff with complicated weaves: easy on lifting, heavy on concentration.  The exact amount is never completely clear.  Yet it is seems always either a whisper or a hammer.  Not much in between.<br /><br />Now, I believe some of the problem weaves like the food-spoilage, rat/vermin, and building wards have more to do with the complexity of the weaves needing to be 'tweaked.'  Or abandoned altogether in favor of new weaves since the One Power isn't working the exact same way anymore.<br /><br />The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sisters know just enough to fear experimentation.  So much was lost.  It&#8217;s certain even they don't know how much anymore.  They've lost even comprehension of what they are supposed to be to the world they are living in:  servants.  I imagine wielding the One Power would be like playing with atomic energy without knowing all the laws of science and physics.  Not standing on the shoulders of giants, but trying to be a giant without the benefit of solid ground for standing on.  Sticking with what works is safest.  How to try something new when it&#8217;s needed?  The Sisters just don't for the most part.<br /><br />It&#8217;s why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Nyneave and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Elayne are considered such innovators.  They haven't been dragged through years of psychological brainwashing against trying new things and so they do.  They might lead the way for a time, but I think there will be a tragic cost for one or all of them simply because no one will take the time to understand even a part of what they are doing.  They, and here I mean <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Elayne and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Nyneave in particular, just try it and see what happens.  Terrifying.<br /><br />So, I believe too, that since the One Power has been altered yet again by the removal of the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Dark One's taint the rules have changed even more.  There may be something that used to work just fine and now will burn out the wielder or flat-out kill them.  And these things, unfortunately, are always found out hard.<br /><br />That's it.  Whatcha think?  ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2006-02-06 12:48:27
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
it is an interesting thought...the effect that the resurgence of saiden has had on the world. But I do not think you were able to make a case in that this is responsible for the weakened saidar ties<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 20:47:37
subject: <b>Weakened Saidar</b>
body:
It may be that Saidar is failing because all of the female channellers are holding Saidar far more than ever before, and their rates of channelling have increased.<br /><br />In fact, it might be that all of the cuendillar they are making is drawing power from the Source, but not returning it... after all, Cuendillar absorbs any force thrown against it, including the OP. Maybe Cuendillar is rare for a reason!<br /><br />The rest of the theory isn't too bad - that Saidin being in use again has boosted the occurrence of Talents, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 09:38:17
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
No offense, but I do not see how this got past the admin. You have nothing to back it up, only wild speculation.  If what you say is true, then nothing should have worked for the women during the AoL.  Yet, they were able to create the strongest sa'angreals ever.  The Forsaken in their own thoughts admit that Lanfear was as strong as any.  The greatest healer was a woman, as was the greatest psychiatrist.  Clearly there were plenty of strong men channelling in the AoL.  Men and women maintained the standing flows.  The failing wards are just another sign of the DO's influence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 09:50:48
subject: <b>Sai`dar is not failing.</b>
body:
Sai`dar is part of the OP that turns the Wheel.<br /><br />The DO`s touch is creating the problems.<br /><br />Consider the man in KoD consumed by beetles or the weavils in CoT prospering in the dead of winter.<br /><br />The broken and weakenong Seals are evidence that the DO`s reach is ever widening.<br /><br />It has gotten so strong that the Pattern itself is unstable, allowing ghosts to walk, structures to change, the parting of the veil separating reality from unreality.<br /><br />There are many other examples but this is sufficient.<br /><br />Truth to tell, IMO, sai`dar keepings also are failing, though we have seen no evidence yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 11:01:26
subject: <b>Good Idea, but I disagree</b>
body:
This theory seems nice, but the Aes Sedai in the age of legends didn't have much problems with the power. Furthermore, the overall porportion of users of the power in randland is about equal if you take into consideration that there are other users all over the planet. The ratio of use will equal about the same, so saidin couldn't be weakening saidir too much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 12:49:15
subject: <b>A correction</b>
body:
I meant to say sai`din keepings are also failing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 15:29:46
subject: <b>Logical</b>
body:
That would be logical, and explain the odd coincidences occuring with the power on both saidin and saidir. However, the 'oddness' in the true power was coming from the city of Ebou Dari. It is mentioned several times in PoD that the closer to Ebou Dari they got, the worse saidin did too, and that it was almost impossible to weave flows there. I think that the reason for the oddness of the source (for saidin at least) is coming from the weave that Elayne used/screwed up when trying to unravel a gateway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-08 18:26:00
subject: <b>infinity</b>
body:
Correct me if i'm wrong but i seem to recall (from various sources, but most recently for me the big white book) that the one power is a) always in balance and b) infinite.<br /><br />considering those two things and the fact that you seem to be alluding to the fact that women are effectively being rendered useless due to their weaves not holding, then you wouldn't be rebalancing, you'd be shifing the balance the other way....with an infinite resource that the type of balance you're talking about doesn't apply to. <br /><br />saidin and saidar balance each other qualitatively, not quantitatively....<br /><br />anyone see what i'm trying to say?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-23 23:51:35
subject: <b>Totally wrong?</b>
body:
I seem to recall that the keepings and such failings were due to Darkfriends and Black Ajah tampering with the weaves.<br /><br /> I don't think it's anything to do with the Power failing or shifting, but a mind trick planned by a Forsaken. <br /><br />


created: 2006-02-07 05:54:58
subject: <b>Not sure where i stand on this one</b>
body:
Doesn't seem big enough or military enough for Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 09:08:34
subject: <b>I agree with above...</b>
body:
...the force seems pretty small. But on the other hand, if he is in controll of the Darkhounds, Trollocs and so forth he has his share anyhow and besides, these Dragonsworn have caused some serious damage even if you don't count Masema..<br /><br />..hmmm, the grammar seems suspicious...must improve spelling...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 12:43:47
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Demandred has a long-standing agreement with Semirhage.<br /><br />I can see them plotting to take advantage of the SC Forerunners chaos.<br /><br />This all occurred shortly after the Forsaken energed, and since then Demandred has expanded his reach.<br /><br />Ishamael set up the Seanchan Return and then had the misfortune to die in Tear, giving Demandred room to go after Masema and the WCs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 14:37:34
subject: <b>Softening things up...</b>
body:
Or, perhaps, following up on one implication of Jofraz's comment, his sowing of chaos allowed for the Seanchan to conquer Tarabon and Amadicia more easily. <br /><br />Chris<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 15:01:08
subject: <b>I agree, too</b>
body:
Although I do think that Sammael's comment of &quot;events to the south&quot; was referring to the Seanchan in Tarabon.  He was just mistaken that Demandred was directly behind them.<br /><br />I agree with Jofraz that Dem and Sem worked together to take advantage of the Seanchan return to sow chaos in that region, with Dem using the methods you described.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 15:15:12
subject: <b>Tear is in the South also</b>
body:
Demandred could also be playing a role in the civil war their. Perhaps also in Cairhien, though it's not really in the South.<br /><br />Also, after Sammael's demise, D. may also be putting his finger in in other places, including Altara, Ghealdon, and Murandy.<br /><br />Something is going on in Murandy.<br /><br />And then there are is the Prophet.  Who knows what is/was going on there.  And Asunawa of the Whitecloaks?<br /><br />And the guy Galad killed?<br /><br />Not saying it's all Demandred, but more than just Tarabon and Amadicia.


created: 2006-02-07 15:34:26
subject: <b>Missing Point or mistake?</b>
body:
Please take notice of the fact that Sammael said &quot;to the south&quot; not &quot;in the south.&quot; This implies that it is even further south than Sammael is, which could only be (to the best of my knowledge) Tremalking. Of course, it could merely be a misinterpretation, and RJ meant that it was in the southern part of randland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 16:08:43
subject: <b>To Demosthenes ...</b>
body:
At the time Sammael said &quot;events to the South&quot;, he was visiting Graendal in Arad Doman.  So, he meant to the south of Arad Doman, not to the south of Illian.<br /><br />At least, that's my understanding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 16:08:56
subject: <b>It might be worth noting...</b>
body:
...that the two groups you mention, the whitecloaks and the dragonsworn, are linked, and not just as prime suspects for demandred's proxies.<br /><br />I'm sure (No books to hand atm though), that in the chapter in the dragon reborn in which we get a Pedron Niall PoV, he plans to send forces disguised as dragonsworn to make the dragonsworn worse, so he can unite the people of the world against Rand.<br /><br />We know that by this point, the forsaken are loose, and prehaps, Demandred is manipulating Niall, using him to consolidate his two forces, or using them in tandem to achieve some unknown goal.<br /><br />Just an idea, probably wrong<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 18:26:49
subject: <b>One problem</b>
body:
with the Whitecloaks idea.<br /><br />Fain.<br /><br />Surely, if Demandred had his finger in this pie, he would have sniffed out Fain while he was advising Niall.<br /><br />Also, i'm not entirely convinced about the Dragonsworn. Assuming this excludes the prophet, and is only to do with the wild bands, using a 'Proxy' seems a little weak, seeing as a proxy would have to be identified. That is, he would be a leader of Dragonsworn for Sammael to notice him and comment about it.<br /><br />I personally favor Masema's band. Alas, there is very, very little evidence for anything with Demandred. Which makes him our tall dark mysterious forsaken!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 22:39:18
subject: <b>Demandred's a sneaky bastard</b>
body:
I reckon he has been trying to turn randland, or randlands <br /><br />leaders atleast, against Rand. All the attrocities you hear <br /><br />of dragonsworn commiting i have always thought were <br /><br />perpetrated by Demandred or his lackeys (including The <br /><br />Prophet)


created: 2006-02-08 05:12:03
subject: <b>It's possible.</b>
body:
I'm quite certain it was suggested before that Semirhage wanted to be captured, nevertheless I think these theories aren't bad.<br /><br />Of course if this is right, it was a damned risky plan because Semirhage couldn't be 100 % certain that someone wouldn't simply kill her after her almost successful attack on Rand.<br /><br />On the other hand, you are right, the whole confrontation seemed a bit too quick &amp; easy.<br /><br />We also know from Semirhage's only PoV in the series in LoC, ch.6, that she would likely be capable of such a plan:<br />&quot;If the Great Lord meant to make al'Thor Nae'blis, she herself would kneel to him &#8212; and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait.&quot;<br /><br />Apparently Semirhage wouldn't mind to submit to Rand if it seems necessary, but still plan to kill him.<br />I'm really anxious to know how this plot will go on in MoL...<br /><br />Anyway, I like your thoughts and therefore thumbs up.


created: 2006-02-08 05:28:45
subject: <b>Too Risky</b>
body:
People seem to agree that Lanfear/Cyndane would have told Semirhage about Rand not killing women but I find this highly unlikely. Lanfear and Semirhage were probably the least friendly pair out of all the Forsaken and I do not believe that reincarnation would change anything. We also see in KoD how little communication there is between the Forsaken, ie the fact that none knew of Mat or Perrin until then. <br /><br />Given this, I think Semi's plan to be captured would have been outrageously risky. That she sees immortality as meaning she has time is different than meaning she cannot die (her reincarnation is up to the good will of Shai'tan). Semi knew Lews Therin and Lews Therin could kill women if it was necessary. In all, I think Semi's plan was the product of a long and elaborate planning that went wrong and forced her into a desperate situation. Remember, if she had not shown up, Rand would never have made peace with the Seanchan or at least not with those she had control over like Suroth and her plans would be for naught. So, even though the plan was risky, she kind of had to go. I don't think, however, that she intended to be captured. Her cool is foreshadowed in the Forsaken chapter when Aran'gar observes Semi's apparent ease when she was most definitely not comfortable. <br /><br />Just my two (or three) cents.


created: 2006-02-08 06:30:56
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
..that if Moridin ordered Semirhage to nestle her way in to Rands camp this way she would do so without hesitation and with no need for any 'guarante' that she wouldn't get hurt. There was a chance that she would get killed but if that was the case she would probably be resurrected since she hasn't dissobeyd her master.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 07:47:55
subject: <b>I disagree...</b>
body:
I think that Semirhage had the typical failure of all the forsaken before her - overconfidence and arrogance. And she ignored information that should have aided her. <br /><br />I see no reason that she would let herself be captured. It doesn't make any logistical sense. The only reason that she was captured is the difference of the ter'angreals that Nynaeve and Cadsuane have. I don't understand why people think she intended this just because she was cool under pressure. Don't believe anything that comes out of a forsaken's mouth - especially one like Semirhage.<br /><br />Anyway, she may escape, or at least attempt it in AMOL. But I really think it's more likely that we'll see a big contrast to AoL events - Cadsuane has the will to stand up to Semirhage, and Nynaeve to an extent as well. The x-factor in all this is Elza Penfells and her DF warder. If Semirhage escapes, it's because they free her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 09:02:31
subject: <b>i could dig it</b>
body:
note that though Lanfear may not have told Semirhage precisely about Rand's weakness, there is not doubt that it was discussed in a meeting somewhere.  I feel like I remember others besides lanfear talking about his inablity to kill women.


created: 2006-02-08 12:04:47
subject: <b>i feel like this is the third time i've posted on a theory about this, but</b>
body:
I agree. It was way too easy the way she was captured. Semi could have brought so much more to the table. We had Rand's POV for the fight, which actually hinders our knowledge of what happened, just to be tricksy. The sad bracelets were a little too obvious the way they were 'hidden.' And if you remember Semi's flash of anger, I think that came about because Cadsuane's ter'angreal revealed her too soon. I think Semi wanted to go inside, have the sad bracelets found, and be taken in a calm manner- like being under arrest. Instead, she was detected early, and could have died in the heat of battle, balefired or something. But her plan still succeeded. If we look at Semi's profile, she is known for causing pain. I think she would love nothing more than to be kept near the DR all the time, dropping vile hints into the mind of a maddening Rand/LTT.


created: 2006-02-08 15:40:09
subject: <b>Agree with kcf</b>
body:
It doesn't sum up. Too risky. The way things went down (fight, Rand almost got killed, etc) shows that it was not plan to be captured. But she might have plans IF she was captured, that's why she was calm after that.<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-08 16:15:37
subject: <b>I can never agree with this</b>
body:
I will never agree that any Forsaken was captured deliberately for the following reasons...<br /><br />1. She has no way of knowing that her captors won't decide to still and/or execute her immediately. Egwene said that the Sisters in Salidar would want Moghedien executed as soon as possible if they knew who she was. Cadsuane and the others probably have the same ideations.<br /><br />2. Semirhage shielded immediately becomes the target of ambitious Forsaken who have waited years to kill her. It is the same reason why Asmodean was so terrified of confronting them in his weakened state. Cyndane, Demandred, Mesaana... any of them would make a quick stop to kill Semirhage before moving off again.<br /><br />3. Her actions when she was captured are inconsistent with a deliberate effort to be captured. When her Illusion dissipated she was stunned, and when it occured again she was furious. Not the picture of a woman whose plan is going according to plan. Compound this with the fact that the house contained male and female a'dam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 16:57:20
subject: <b>Rand may not kill her...</b>
body:
But what about everyone else?  I really don't think that she would trust Rand's folwers not to do her in while he isn't looking.  She might have some kind of plan going once she gets inside, but I don't think it would be her intention to be captured.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 17:03:55
subject: <b>What Plan</b>
body:
Any forsaken that plans to get captured by the forces of light is a forsaken that doesnt plan on being around to long. she has no way of knowing that she wont be killed instantly, possibly with balefire, not much chance to cause dissention then. The argument that the DO can just transmigrate her soul is a weak argument, i hardly think the experience is pleasant and if she gets Balefired?? Not much of a plan really, get caught, hope you dont get killed, hope you escape/get rescued. Not very forsaken like.


created: 2006-02-08 17:06:40
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
as most of points opposing this theory have already been made i'll add one thing that i haven't seen mentioned<br /><br />semirhage composes herself because that's the sort of person she is, she won't show pain or fear, she's too proud. there are many times when i've covered fear with a bravado of disinterest or contempt...it works<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 17:19:17
subject: <b>Saveguards</b>
body:
Semirhage can count on survival because of prior events. Moggy was captured and used, Asmo was captured and used, Lanfear did communicate with Rand and did not get harmed until she attacked.<br />But she probably didn't get captured on purpose. But i don't believe that she was there to capture Rand either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 18:52:44
subject: <b>12 damane</b>
body:
I agree with i bore a hole that she could have intended to get captured without a fight when the good guys discovered the Adam's.  I also agree that her plan backfired when Cadsuane's and Nynaeve's Ter'Angreals revealed her too soon.<br /><br />Mainly I wanted to point out that if she had really intended to try and capture or kill rand then at the very least she could have brought 12 Damane instead of six.  Now, we know that the agreement said 6 channelers each, and for the Seanchan, if they're playing by their rules, that means 6 Damane and 6 Sul'dam.  However, Semhirage doesn't care in the least about Seanchan customs, and I'm sure she knows that you could easily have Damane replace the Suldam and thus have 12 channelers without the goodies suspecting anything.  They would then merely have to take off the a'dam in the middle of the negotiations, and immidiately they have the advantage.  Of course Semirhage would have to have 12 darkfriends to accomplish this, but they wouldn't even need to be Seanchan.  Anyway if Semirhage had wanted to capture or kill rand she could have easily bent the rules in her favor, but instead she didn't do anything to help herself.


created: 2006-02-08 19:53:50
subject: <b>The risk factor</b>
body:
Like I said in the theory even if Semirhage didn't know about Rand's weakness, she would still have guessed that she would be kept for questioning. Most of the Forsaken don't mind risking themselves if they think their reward would be high enough.<br /><br />I like the idea that i bore a hole came up with, I wish I had thought of that.<br /><br />For those of you who wonder why Semirhage tried to kill Rand if her plan was to get captured, I think the answer is this: she wanted to get captured, but if she managed to kill Rand, that would still be a success. Of course the good guys would have killed her if she managed to kill Rand, but for killing the Dragon Reborn the DO would have revived her. Remember, it's Moridin that doesn't want Rand to be harmed, we don't know what the DO would prefer.<br /><br />Another thing, Semihage thinks that she will be able to escape because she already did it before, and because she doesn't know that Rand has such forceful and determined people like Cadsuane on his side. For all we know Semirhage could know about Elza, and if she does than she would be even more sure of her success.<br /><br />Thanks for all the comments.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-08 20:49:45
subject: <b>Semi didn't mean to be captured</b>
body:
I see it as being more like an Egwene-type situation.  She didn't mean to be captured, but being resourceful, is trying to gain as much advantage from a difficult situation as possible.


created: 2006-02-08 22:35:24
subject: <b>I'm not convinced</b>
body:
I don't think Semirhage wanted to be captured. Her style isn't to go in with a huge army behind her (that would be more like Sammael or Rahvin). Just look at how she has controlled the Seanchan while posing as Anath. <br /><br />I think Semirhage thought she had a good plan to capture Rand and the Asha'man and Aes Sedai with him. The only reason her plan went wrong was the ter'angreal Cadsuane and Nyneave had. <br /><br />As Nyneave says, &quot;She shouted at them to shield us, but they couldn't because we were all holding the Power already (they were masking their ability). If we hadn't been, if Cadsuane and I hadn't had our ter'angreal, I don't know what would have happened.&quot;<br /><br />For those who think that there was not enough excitement because of the lack of a big fight: I totally don't agree.<br />I find the exposure of Rand's big secret to be the biggest event since he cleaned Saidin. This can actually move his character forward.


created: 2006-02-08 23:50:18
subject: <b>I agree with those who disagree</b>
body:
This IS more like an Egwene situation.  Semi had no reason to believe that Nynaeve and Cadsuane could invert weaves and might not have known that Lanfear had confronted that terangreal that disolved weaves at the cleansing.  So she had a pretty good chance.  <br /><br />And I DON'T think that Cadsuane will kill her prematurely--that is before C. can squeeze everything she can out of S.  And I think Nynaeve would support C in this based on past behavior with Moggy.<br /><br />They really neeb an Adam to leash S. with.<br /><br />Two dangers, B.A. agent Elza and the fact that she could be potentially reincarnated if they kill her.  There might have been theorizing about A.S. theorizing that the DO being able to bring people back from the dead unless balefired.  Just the type of thing C might have dug up over the centuries--or Verin.<br /><br />So Rand's tactic of killing off the forsaken was always doomed. So to speak


created: 2006-02-09 09:57:15
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
For starters, everything we have seen about the Forsaken show that they are not risk takers, and that they can hide their true emotions quite well.  I see nothing to support the idea that Semi was anything but arrogant in her assumption that she could capture Rand and his party.  When it failed, she fire balled him and they kept her calm in a tense situation.  So did Cadsuane I might add.  She didn't panic when one of the 13 most feared and fabled persons was standing in front of her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 13:32:00
subject: <b>let me try a new tactic</b>
body:
I believe that Semi wanted to get captured because I also believe several other ideas that tie well into that master-plan of hers.<br />1-Semi sent the thousands of trollocs after Rand<br />2-Semi wanted to get captured<br />3-Rand will wear the male adam at some point<br />As for part 1, I think that she sent the trollocs as a means of keeping Rand off balance and desperate for a treaty with the fake DotNM. Even after the fight with Semi, Rand still wants a meeting with the DotNM. That was part of Semi's plan- Rand doesn't think about what's around him, in the guise of a live Forsaken, nor does he even think about his wounds (hardening against laughter and tears)<br />For part 2, i've said my piece, that it was too easy and stank of trap. It was too short of a battle, too unsatisfying, and let's face it, the end result is that there is a Forsaken near Rand.<br />For part 3, let me see...male adam being hinted at since book 2, Alivia a SEANCHEAN going to help Rand to die, and Rand in all sorts of trouble. Rand may not be going any madder, but he's still paranoid as most ever get, he's got like a million women- along with color swirls- in his head, and that connection to Moridin will end in the death of at least his body. Meanwhile, Semi has already spread rumors and worse about him in the minds of his entourage- those people that are constantly next to a headcase, a very strong, dangerous headcase. I strongly believe that the forces of light will have to, at some point, put Rand in an adam. I believe that this will be facilitated by Semi's whispers in the ear of Rand/LTT and into the blank faces of his friends. Yes, even his friends shall betray him (that's what saviours get). Semi was known for causing pain. Being a specialist. What would make her happier than to tinker with the mind of LTT, the dragon reborn, this new guy Rand, and anything else she suspects? I think that might mean more to her than even immortality. Possible. <br />Anyway, I see these three things together (i know some might disagree with some or all of this) but I think that it goes well together, explains a lot, and in the context of this theory, at least helps to explain the very suspicious capture- intended or not- of Semi. Let's face it, we hear about Semi, but we don't really see her(what was she doing during the cleansing that was so important- cough, sending trollocs through the ways- or was she planning a really lame attempt to capture or kill Rand that is the face value of what we saw in KoD?). This is her time to shine, so why is there so much doubt about her cunning?


created: 2006-02-09 14:32:54
subject: <b>Another goal</b>
body:
I've always thought that she intended to be captured but never actually intended to reveal her true indentity.  The plan would go like this.  Anath acts like capturing the Rand is the goal, hence the adam and sad bracelets, but she fully intends for the plan to fail and to be captured herself.  This would create a big rift between Rand and the Seanchan, perhaps big enough to prevent the alliance that Rand is so desperate to get (and apparently needs according to the Finns). By not revealing herself, she would just be another prisoner, not worthy of any extra attention and certainly not the type of attention afforded to a real live Forsaken.  Escape would be easy because no one even knows she can channel, let alone about her many other skills.  She quickly escapes and no one is the wiser about who they had really captured and her plan does well in sowing a little chaos.  This was impossible after Cadsuane messed up her illusion weave and revealed her to Rand who can recognize her face from LT memories.  The rest goes like many others have hypothesized.  She's no coward for one thing, and it serves her purposes better to be Semhirage rather than an anonymous channeler who would still be closely watched.  Thus she takes the opportunity to plant a some doubts and reenforce the fears of Rand's companions, or his own if you want to look at it that way.  So her capture was deliberate, but the problems with illusion forced her into survival mode and a quick assessment of how she could be more effective in supporting the shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 15:00:51
subject: <b>Definitly a Plan</b>
body:
There is no possible way that Semirhage would allow herself to be captured so easily. If you really believe that she was stupid enough to come against well over ten channelers, don't you think it would have happened before book eleven? Even so, she wasn't a powerful force for the shadow during the AoL for being stupid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 15:21:06
subject: <b>I share some of your ideas, not all of them</b>
body:
I think what happened with Asmodean and Moghedien gave the idea to Moridin to send Semirhage to &quot;guide&quot; Rand in the right direction in the last phase of TG by becoming his prisoner.<br /><br />Forget the &quot;it's too risky&quot; etc. - DO's orders, she had no choice. Being a Chosen isn't all about having fun and living eternally - you have to serve Shai'tan and earn your rewards once in a while.<br /><br />From early her POV we know she would obey anything the DO asked, and kneel down to anyone named Nae'blis - until he slips and she has an occasion to take over.  Similarly, I think Semirhage let Demandred lead the &quot;trio&quot;, knowing that if he brings the three of them to the top there will always be time to overthrow him as well eventually.  <br /><br />From her POV I think Semirhage is extremely patient - much more than many of the others.  She plans to make her move for Nae'blis <i>after</i> the DO's victory. She can follow Moridin for now,<br /><br />She mounted a believable but not too incontrollable/dangerous attack (Rand wasn't to be killed), and my guess is that she would have left herself be tracked down had her kidnapping of Rand succeeded.<br /><br />Had she succeeded, this kidnapping by the &quot;Daughter of the Nine Moons&quot; would have brought down all of Rand's people (incl. BT quite possibly - leaving only Taim's people there) on the Seanchan in Ebou Dar big time.  And the Seanchan would have fought back big time as well, religiously convinced they must force the Dragon Reborn to serve the Crystal Throne or else the world is doomed.<br /><br />I think Moridin also ordered Semirhage to Heal Rand of the SL wound which is extremely dangerous to the True Power (and thus, possibly to Shai'tan as well) and also to torture him to know where the Seals are and maybe the CK with which he could theorically implement Latra Posae's alternate plan to seal-off the whole SG area for a time). Killing a few of Rand's people would have been a bonus.<br /><br />I'm not certain Semirhage planned to be a &quot;prisonner&quot; for sure, but she had to remain with Rand long enough to accomplish certain specific things. If it meant being captured instead of having him prisoner in ED for a while, so be it. It happened twice before with Asmo &amp; Moghedien, Moridin knows very well Rand and his close friends just can't resist a pet Forsaken on a leash to serve them. Semirhage even brought the leashes herself! Who better and more trustable than Semirhage to handle Rand, and who better than her to tempt Nynaeve the Forsaken-leasher to learn from her how to Heal Rand's SL wound? Finally, who better than Semirhage to punish Nynaeve for her role in ruining the DO's efforts to mess with the seasons?<br /><br />I think the only thing that went wrong in Semirhage's plan is that she expected to be able to bring Rand to Ebou Dar before his people come to get him, and her.<br /><br />Also a possibility is that Semirhage was asked to turn Rand to the Shadow as well before releasing him/let him be rescued.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 16:19:34
subject: <b>I'm going to try to convince you...</b>
body:
Going in with a group of damane, black ajah, or any other type of channaler is just common sense when you're going to meet the Dragon Reborn. Semirhage just brought 6. That seems very dumb to me, and I don't think that Semihage is dumb.<br /><br />I agree that what Semirhage told everyone is a very big and important secret, but that makes me convinced even more. What could be better than if someone could tell Rand's followers about all the strange things that go on in his head? Even Min will start to look at Rand differently if she learned all about Lews Therin, Moridin, and the strange colors in Rand's head. Being caught would allow her to tell them all of those things. <br />Lately I've started thinking that maybe she wants to meet Nynaeve. Semirhage was one of the best healers in the AoL, but even she didn't know how to heal stilling.<br /><br />The Forsaken can keep their cool in any situation, and Semirhage is probably even better at that than most, but what she told about Lews Therin isn't the sort of thing that a Forsaken pretending to be calm would say. Semirhage really was calm and relaxed, and that can't mean something good for Rand and his allies.<br /><br />As for Cadsuane being calm when she learned that Semirhage is Semirhage, that can easily be explained. She has been in the company of the Dragon Reborn for several weeks. The Dragon Reborn is the second most dreaded person in the world (the first is the DO). Also the Seanchan sul'dum wept when they learned that &quot;Anath&quot; was really Semirhage but when they learned who Rand was?<br /><br />&quot;If they [the sul'dum] had wept at hearing Semirhage's name, they wailed at hearing his [Rand's].&quot;<br /><br />So clearly they are more frightened of Rand than of a regular Forsaken. Cadsuane probably thinks the same way, and she never was scared of Rand - I don't think that anything short of the DO appearing in front of her in full strength could have scared her.<br /><br />I like the idea of Semihage doing this to ruin relations between Rand and the Seanchan, but I think that that is her second reason for wanting to get captured. Her first is to sow dissension, just like I said in the theory.<br /><br />Adios, mi amigos!<br />(Sorry about that, but I can't resist showing of my pathetic knowledge of Spanish.)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 19:05:27
subject: <b>One flaw in the idea</b>
body:
One flaw to this theory (although an interesting idea) is that if Semi's goal is to sow dissention, this goal is made MORE difficult be the fact that everyone KNOWS who she is from this point on.<br /><br />It seems to me that masquarading as an AS, captured sul'dam, Wise Woman, or someone else would have been a much easier way to sow dissention in Rand's camp. Now, everyone knows who she is and will believe nary a word she says. <br /><br />Also, why bring the bracelets if the plan is to fail?<br /><br />I admit it was the most disappointing of all the Forsaken encounters.<br />


created: 2006-02-09 20:24:35
subject: <b>Reply to last two</b>
body:
Not sure if yours were referring to my post, but I'll act like they were because it makes me feel like I said something interesting.  <br /><br />Anyway, notice that I hypothesized that I think her original plan was to be captured but not unmasked, escaping later.  If capturing Rand was her first goal,this could be the contingency plan. Once she was unmasked Rand/LT would recognize her anyway so denying herself serves no purpose except to make her look like a coward.  Much more effective to act calm and collected while preying on the doubts and concerns of Rand and Co.  Thus in my mind being herself was plan number 2 or even 3 if her original goal was to capture Rand. <br /><br />To summarize, Semhirage's plans <br /><br />Plan 1 (maybe) - Capture Rand with the adam. A DR on a leach is much better than one off a leash<br />Plan 2 - Screw relations between Rand and Seanchan but never reveal myself. Escape later is easy because they have no idea who I really am and won't be guarding me like they would a known Forsaken<br />Plan 3 - Nuts, my illusion failed, LT will recognize me so I had better make the most of it and scare the crap out of everyone.  This is most effective if I reveal my true identity because I am a truly messed-up scary person. At the same time I'll act confident collected because it will make them very uncomfortable and put some weight behind my words, even when I'm lying<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 21:14:54
subject: <b>remember the cleansing?</b>
body:
Semi made it this far in the series because she has some intelligence. She knows that Rand always has a ridiculous entourage with him, and has never been beaten by ANY forsaken. He took down Sammael and Rahvin in head-to-head conflicts. Now, I believe that Semi knows what happened at the cleansing. Most of the forsaken tried to stop Rand, who wasn't even involved in the fighting. And all of the forsaken got taken by just his entourage. Does Semi really think that she could stand with a few damane against any and everything that a very paranoid, very clever, dragon reborn could bring? Does that sound likely at all? Seriously, Rand's people, without Rand, threw down with a bunch of forsaken, threw down, and won. After all of these books, Semi finally comes into action with her master plan- this really lame attack. It doesn't make sense to me...


created: 2006-02-10 00:36:32
subject: <b>to LogainReborn</b>
body:
regarding the first of your two previous posts. &quot;I've always thought that she intended to be captured but never actually intended to reveal her true indentity. The plan would go like this. Anath acts &quot;.....<br /><br />Sorry, but this is where your post falls apart. &quot;Anath&quot; was never there as far as the sul'dam and Rand's posse were concerned - it was to be the High Lady Tuon that faced them. So if &quot;Anath&quot; was to be captured and later escape she would have to somehow transform from &quot;Tuon&quot; to &quot;Anath&quot; without anybody noticing one had disappeared and the other spontaneously appeared.<br /><br />As far as not revealing her true identity even if she showed up as Anath in the first place there is nothing in the books that I can find that indicates that she was using the MoM at any stage when playing the part of Anath.<br /><br />Regarding your second post &quot;LT will recognize me&quot; - huh? From the interactions with Lanfear before Rand returned out of the Waste the other Chosen may be privy to the information that Rand has some of LTT's memories and that he is strong but it is nowhere certain that Semi would be certain that Rand would recognise her from LTT's memories.<br /><br />I am sorry if this comes across as some sort of attack on your posts, it is certainly not meant to be taken that way. I just don't follow the logic of your former post.<br /><br />cheers<br /><br />MD<br />


created: 2006-02-10 08:05:15
subject: <b>I don't like it...</b>
body:
Becasue get captured just to sow some worries or whatever is silly.<br /><br />New York Times, 1991.<br />Gulf War..  In a bold and cunning manuver, Storm'in Normin Swarskoff intentionally allows himself to be captured to sow dissent between Saddam and the Iraqi Republicin gaurd. Genius.<br /><br />See doesn't it just sound silly?  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-10 10:59:37
subject: <b>Doesn't Add Up</b>
body:
No matter if Semirhage had orders from the DO, she still wouldn't have acted so stupid. If her orders were to attack the Dragon Reborn, she definitly would have brought more than 6 channelers to watch her back. She wouldn't have wanted to be captured to sow dissent, because that would be, again, stupid. She definitly has some other plan that she means to acheive. In addtition, RJ wouldn't wait until the last books to bring in powerful antagonists, and then have them be easily captured.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-10 16:09:07
subject: <b>Dissension</b>
body:
People will still listen to Semirhage for three reasons. One, that they already suspect that Rand might be going mad. Two, Cadsuane already has suspicions about the voice in Rand's head - remember when she asks him if he hears voices, in book 7 aCoS? -. And third, the people all looked strange when they heard what Semirhage said, so they are listening. Maybe they won't believe her, but they'll begin to have doubts about Rand and doubts can easily become fears.<br /><br />It is very possible that Semirhage has many plans, but capturing Rand isn't one of them, because she had to know that she would be defeated with only a few damane and sul'dum.<br /><br />I don't know how RJ plans to solve the problem with Semirhage, but that doesn't matter to me, because I just write the theory. Everything else is up to him.<br /><br />To LogainReborn, I like your idea, but some parts of it don't make sense. She could be discovered very easily, and she has no sure way of knowing what knowledge of the power Rand and his allies posses. Also, even if her disguise didn't fail, Rand would have thought that she is the Daughter of the Nine moons, so he wouldn't have just let her go. It occured to me that maybe Semirhage's plan was to kill Rand when he doesn't expect it - after all who would think that the heir to the Seanchan throne could channel? - but I immediatly revoked the idea. Semirhage says in one of her PoVs that she would follow anyone named Nae'blis, and the Nae'blis has given the Forsaken explict orders not to kill the DR, so I doubt that Semirhage would have tried to kill Rand.<br /><br />I would like to know why she had all the a'dam and male a'dam in one box in the middle of the room. She didn't place them there for no reason. I'll try to figure out why she did that, but in the meantime I'd like to hear any ideas that you guy's have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-10 16:24:06
subject: <b>Not anath, Tuon</b>
body:
I think that LogainReborn meant or should have said Tuon, not Anath.  On Rand's side, no one knows who Anath even is, and Semirhage hasn't pretended to be Anath since somewhere around the time that Tuon left with Mat.  So, when LogainReborn said &quot;Anath acts like capturing the Rand is the goal, hence the adam and sad bracelets, but she fully intends for the plan to fail and to be captured herself.&quot;  He was really talking about Tuon.  Tuon is not a channeler and would definitely NOT be harmed if captured, even if she was trying to struggle, or attacking, or even trying to leash Rand.  The plan was to be captured as Tuon, and then she could do all the harm she wanted and Travel out since she wouldn't even be shielded.


created: 2006-02-11 00:30:15
subject: <b>Still don't agree</b>
body:
This theory is mainly based on the fact that this confrontation was basically anticlimactic, there was no payoff. The reason you think there was more going on is not so much that there is much evidence in the book to suggest it... it's mostly that you want more.<br /><br />The problem is that deliberately getting captured does not fit  Semi's character. She enjoys inficting pain on others, she enjoys power over others; why would someone like this deliberatelyy put herself in someone else's power?<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-11 13:37:00
subject: <b>My mistake</b>
body:
Thanks for pointing out the Anath/Tuon/Semhirage. No need to think that I'd feel insulted if someone points out an obvious mistake.  I reserve my anger for people who either can't admit when they are wrong or attempt to belittle those who don't agree with them.  <br /><br />As a further note, Semhirage seems to know a good deal about Rand's voices and what they mean, so isn't at least plausible that she would think about the possibility of being recognized for herself.  Anyway good points all<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-12 07:11:20
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Semi already was in a powerful and influental position masking as Anath. I don&#180;t think she&#180;d give that up just for the chance to make mischief.<br />@ gawynssecret and others who think that 6 damane were to few:<br />there had been an agreement about 6 channelers on each side, bringing more would have been an early give-away of their plans. Bringing 12 damane instead of 6 and 6 sul&#180;dam was not an option. Semi might not care about Seanchan customs, but Seanchan do, and their damane were Seanchan. Rememeber how they started to cry when Rand suggested releasing them? They would never agree at being on both sides of an adam. Not would the sul&#180;dam, since this would reveal their big secret.<br />The dialogue after the encounter shows that 6 damane would have been enough without Rand&#180;s party in posession of the ter&#180;angreal, so Semi&#180;s plan to capture or kill Rand was not so doomed from the beginnning as some people might think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.<br />        (Terry Pratchett)<br /></font><p></p>


