# w_comment

created: 2002-02-06 05:27:28
subject: <b>My opinion</b>
body:
I've already posted it on the Teslyn/Joline theory. BUt my opinion is that the Aes Sedai he will be weighing is Teslyn/Joline, and Elayne/Egwene and the rebels. He never breaks his promises, and he gave a promise to or about both parties. My opinion is that he'll have to choose between them. And I think he'll choose T &amp; J because he still has a promise to keep for them, and his promise to get Elayne to Caemlyn is already fulfilled. <br /><br />Any comments? <br /><br />Oh, and if that isn't (or even if it is) true, there's always the possibility that he has to weigh groups of Aes Sedai, not just two single women. And I think Egwene would have known if one of the people he weighed was a male channeler.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 12:03:43
subject: <b>could his left eye be his looking at other women?</b>
body:
i'm not up to date on all of the dream/prophecies ... but i'm aware of everything, i believe. if J &amp; T Aes Sedai are the ones on the balance scale, then (this is my question/point) where does Mat's left eye fit into things? if his choice led him to discover/kidnap Tuon, to find his wife of sorts ... is this his losing an eye?<br /><br />is there any allusion or common reference in WoT about &quot;eyeing women&quot; or something like it? Mat is the biggest player in WoT, after all ... maybe he won't be anymore ... only has eyes for Tuon, or an eye.<br /><br />or maybe thats a symbolic dream thing for an eye? i have no idea.<br /><br />i think we'll learn what the eye thing is once we see what 'half the light of the world' is ... either something phenomenal or simply Mat's eye. i'm still undecided. if its not Mat's eye, then his eye on the scale has got to be related to other stuff with the scales.


created: 2002-06-12 11:37:31
subject: <b>Where's the balance/scales?</b>
body:
The reasoning here is impeccable.  But is the theory mistitled?  <br /><br />I don't see any need to invoke the concept of the weighing of one thing against another and making a choice to characterize mats actions viv a vis the catured and trapped Aes Sedai.  Incorrigable (sp?) Mat is incorrigably fair and kind. When his hide alone is at stake, he always seems to do what he must (morally) however much he might grumble.  However much Mat needs to think of himself as the devil-may-care trickster; he is actually the most straight-arrow moralist I can think of in the book.  Is there a choice he has actually made (as opposed to his desperate internal attempts to evade the choice) that has been morally ambiguous?  <br /><br />In the end, Mat will always try to do the right thing, yet he has a healthy knowledge of, and respect for, human frailty.  What better person to hold the scales of justice?  <br /><br />As I write this, it occurs to me what an interesting foil Mat might be for Galad, Rand's half brother, who will always try to do the &quot;right&quot; thing, even if the &quot;right&quot; thing causes pain or is ultimately unjust.  One could carry the comparison further, for it would seem fair to say that Mat and Perrin are like brothers to Rand.  I don't that the Galad comparison really means much though.  The Bran al'Vere observation is also acute, as mayor he is another who must way information and actions on the scales of truth and Justice, his daughter is &quot;mayor&quot; of the Aes Sedai.  And to free associate further, there is Hawkwings' sword, Justice.<br /><br />Anyway, kudos for observation and insight.


created: 2002-07-16 09:56:04
subject: <b>The balance</b>
body:
The Dream of Egwene's refers to him choosing between to Aes Sedai (at the time, she was not Aes Sedai, nor was Elyane), not them on a balance.  Mat had to chose which one had written the note.  Remember that Egwene, Rnad, Perrina and all the Two Rivers folk, especially Nynaeve acknowledge that Mat pays back his debts and keeps his word.  He owed one of the two a debt.  If he owed Joline, he could have left a lot sooner.  But since he owed Teslyn, he had to stay longer and plan it more, bringing Bayle and Egannin (sp?) along.  <br />Also, to the original theory poster, Mat had already met Tuon by that point and she had already shown interest in him.  Keeping Mat at the Palace just added all the Seanchan that knew that sul'dam could channel to his escape party.<br />Woody


created: 2002-07-16 10:47:49
subject: <b>Balances</b>
body:
I take back the part about Egwene not being Aes Sedai when she dreamed of the Balance of Two Aes Sedai.  However, the choice that others seem to be suggesting, between Egwene and Elyane makes no sense.  The three parties are so far apart and now clearly separated from each other that the choice would only happen with Mat's plotline.  Woody


created: 2002-09-20 21:46:18
subject: <b>agree with Matrimony Cauthon</b>
body:
Mat is going to gamble with the lives of two Aes Sedai, his own eye, and probably some other stuff... all in order to protect Rand, I'll wager.<br /><br />1) He will &quot;lose half the light of the world to save the world.&quot;<br />2) He is based on Odin, who loses an eye.<br />3) He puts his eye on a balance scale in a prophetic dream.<br />4) He will be &quot;weighing two Aes Sedai against a vast matter.&quot;<br />5) Mat is a gambler.<br /><br />The problem with the Teslyn and Joline theory is that Mat is currently rescuing not two but THREE Aes Sedai.  I can't remember the third one's name, but she is the love interest of Juilin Sander... I think her damane name is Thera, and she was formerly the Panarch of Tanchico.  If Mat will only be weighing two Aes Sedai, I wonder what happens to the third?<br /><br />Also, I don't think the two Aes Sedai will be major characters.  Egwene and Elayne are too smart to get caught by Seanchan again.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-09-29 22:55:26
subject: <b>i don't think so</b>
body:
Egwene's dream says there are two HUGE Aes Sedai. Teslyn and Joline are not important enough. I'm gonna have to say that one of the Aes Sedai will be Moiraine, and Matt's eye on the scale will have something to do with his dealings with the AElfinn and EElfinn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am stealthy like ninja...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 23:21:25
subject: <b>What about...</b>
body:
One of Mat's biggest gripes is he is always pulling the famales' &quot;bacon off the fire&quot;.  I think perhaps he's going to have to choose whether or not to be a part of saving Egwene from the chopping block she's dreamed about.  He would as soon give up an eye as give up his foxhead medallion.  What if saving her meant having to give it up?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-02 13:21:57
subject: <b>two AS not three</b>
body:
To Abby above, Mat is only rescuing two AS. Thera is a servant, not damane.<br /><br />But I agree that Joline and Tesyln are fufilment of the dream because he did not really have to choose between them - he had to choose whether to take both or just one. <br /><br />


created: 2004-05-22 09:48:15
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
Really late getting here, but you stated my thoughts exactly.<br /><br />Joline and Teslyn were the ones being weighed, and the fate of the world rested on his decision. Most especially by having to kidnap Tuon, then freeing the Windfinders, having Egeanin, 3 Suldams who know the truth about ability of learning how to channel, forcing Karede to search for Tuon, etc will be strong issues causing the Seanchan to follow the DR.<br /><br />It all adds up to determining the fate of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 15:22:49
subject: <b>Wow, I'm first</b>
body:
That's gotta be a first...<br /><br />Anywho- I think that's a cool theory. Don't have time to say much more just now, but the idea of the trees being connected to the Ways is a pretty interesting one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 16:27:03
subject: <b>I Think that..............</b>
body:
the taint just seeped into it, if the ways still draw from saidin to maintain them selves they might start improving.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 16:47:07
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
I have to disagree for a few reasons:<br /><br />The trees of numerous Stedding were cut down, or have died over time.  So if the trees are gone, then how can it be said that the Ways grew dark because of the taint on Saidin?<br /><br />The Ways were grown by Male Aes Sedai who took refuge in the Stedding, who used saidin which was tainted.  <br /><br />Since saidin was cleansed, then possibly the taint of the Ways might reverse itself, but:<br /><br />The Black Wind might just be a parallel to the madness experienced by men who can channel.  Thus, if you are already mad, what good is it that the taint is gone? ... the Black Wind cannot be destroyed and New Ways must be built.<br /><br />What do you guys think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 22:22:17
subject: <b>No WAY</b>
body:
I find it hard to believe the ways were currupted because of saidin. it has been said many times that the male half of the power still worked like normal, it was the channelers that were effected.  if the ways grew dark because of the Taint, then anything else made with saidin would also be currupted, such as male ter'angreal and anything else.<br />the simplest answer is that the ways are dark because of the waygate in shadar logoth.  because everything down to and including the rock the city was built on became infected with the evil, it stands to reason that the waygate in the middle of the city would also be infected.  and because the ways are so big, it simply took time for the evil of SL to seep into them and begin a noticable change.  <br />aalso, keep in mind that Fain was caught by macha shin during his trip through the ways in EoTW.  moirainne makes refrence to this later, that he was caught by the black wind, but rather than destroy him, it spoke to him and he could understand it (dont have exact quote)  but why would it either kill everyone, or steal their soul, but let Fain go pretty much as he was? because macha shin is the same evil as Mashadar. this could also explain why the black wind then seemed to be following Rand in TGH, remember he tried to use the ways twice in that book, but the wind was waiting for him.  so its possible that now, having been in contact with Fain, it isnt just the evil anymore, it also has the impression of the darkone distilled to Fain to help him follow the DR.  and therefor it can follow Rand as well.


created: 2002-02-03 15:01:08
subject: <b>Telamon...</b>
body:
Your theory is a good one but your arguments against the poster's have some flaws.  Mainly, other than the Waygates, no male-created item has been found that was made after the Age of Legends.  So that is why there are no other tainted items.<br /><br />I do like your theory more (it feels more correct), but is it possible that the voices in the Black Wind aren't the taint directly, but rather the madness that the male channelers couldn't help but build into it? ...being mad and all, you know.


created: 2002-02-03 15:40:40
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
first of all, there are plenty groves still standing. tar valon, for instance. secondly, referring to the argument that if the ways are tainted by saidin, all other things made by mlae aes sedai would also be tainted: these things were only made by male aes sedai before the taint started working. the only two things we know of that were made after the taint showed up (shoot me if I am wrong) was the ways and Callandor. Callandor is flawed, as we know. So are the Ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 10:23:11
subject: <b>Problem</b>
body:
Ok both theories make sense yet both (I believe have flaws)first the Black Wind has had many chances to leave the Ways why he did not i've yet to figure out. Second it would be kinda stupid to build new ways while the BW is still around. It would be like giving it something new to eat. But some support for the theories. 1: the original theory is ok the trees and stuff being cut down may have led to the people forgetting about the ways. And like a child when forgotten becomes corruted heart and soul. 2: Some proof for telamons stating that SL is the reason for tBL. When the trollocs are chasing Loial and Rand and the others through the ways the first time(when they fall off the bridge) It is mentioned that the trollocs feared the BW. Now the only other thing they feared before was SL.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Let us live for today, and hope for tomorrow!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />Both theories were pretty good by me.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-04 11:06:44
subject: <b>Maisac, Trollocs fear many things...</b>
body:
Trollocs fear the DO, Myrddraal, SL, the Black Wind, the Forsaken, Fain, Water, the Aiel Waste(the dying land), and probobly some other I forgot. I don't think it makes sense to say that because trollocs fear two things that they are connected, trollocs are not the bravest of creatures.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-04 12:04:18
subject: <b>Mutliple causes and effects</b>
body:
The corruption of the Ways could be just a minor plot point in the end but I have the feeling that when the time for closure comes, it might prove more important than that and be the vehicle for the explanation of many other elements, notably the role of the Ogier and Aiel in the AOL. <br /><br />The Ways were grown. The sparse information we have so far about other grown things in the AOL could involve AS, Nym, Aiel and Ogier in a combination of roles/talents/purposes that isn't very clear yet.  The Guide mentions that the grown stuff wasn't subject to disease, etc. and I guess this is an important point to note.<br /><br />The AS created the Ways using tainted Saidin and as far as we know, Saidar wasn't used and there is no mention of the Aiel or Nym being involved either. I guess it's rather safe to say the Ways were not done as they would have been done if the project had been undertaken earlier in the AOL, and they ended up flawed.  <br /><br />There's also the &quot;talisman&quot;, most likely a ter'angreal, given to the Ogier to continue growing more Ways that might be flawed in a way similar to Callandor and may have made matters worse over time, if not be the reason for weakened portions of the Ways.<br /><br />I also guess that the departure of the Aiel and Nym and the gradual lost of knowledge among the Ogier may imply that the Ways were not maintained properly, like the groves the Ogier let in the hands of humans, like the last Nym who had scars etc. I think RJ may have given us hints by Loial's numerous mentions of what happened to the groves in chapters involving the Ways, but I don't think there's a direct cause and effect to be found there.<br /><br />My favourite theory is still that something out of Mashadar is the parasite that attacked the weakness and ended up corrupting the Ways altogether - it mutated or grew differently in the live environment that is the Ways and this became Machin Shin. The similarities and hints are just too many, from the late revelation of the existence of a Waygate in Shadar Logoth to Fain's adventures with Machin Shin to the fact Machin Shin won't come out of the Ways, just like Mashadar didn't come out of Shadar Logoth.  The attacks are very similar too. In the end, it's very reminescent of Mashadar minus Mordeth. <br /><br />One thing is also strange about the Ways. In various occasions Perrin, Rand (and I think Egwene) and some of the Forsaken were in T'A'R in a place that was very similar to what the clean Ways would have been. If it's the Ways, isn't it strange that whatever happened to them didn't affect their reflect in T'A'R at all?


created: 2002-02-04 13:14:54
subject: <b>Eggtooth22, I've always entertained the idea that the voices</b>
body:
could be what's left of the souls of those consumed by the BW.  <br />I don't have my books with me and my brain hurts today, so please bear with me.<br /><br />I forget which book it's in..The scene I'm thinking of takes place in Stedding Shangtai, I believe.  The Elder Ogiers and Loial and Verin, et al. are discussing why the Ways must never be travelled again.  To demonstrate what happens to those who enter, the Elders bring out the Ogier who is &quot;empty&quot; when Verin Delves him...<br />Everyone with me?<br /><br />Anyway, that scene in particular made me think that the BW consumes what makes people/sentient beings sentient, leaving them a shell of living tissue unable to do anything but, ummm, live, for lack of a better word.  Their soul, or their consciousness is fed into the BW.  <br /><br />We haven't heard about any human returning &quot;empty&quot; from the Ways, have we?  That may be an isloated event, in which case I may be dramatically wrong and the voices are indeed drawn from the male AS' madness.<br /><br />It's a neat way to think about, either way.<br /><br />penny penny<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 15:48:50
subject: <b>All they gotta do...</b>
body:
I don't know if the corruption of the ways is a result of SL or the Dark One's taint or both. But I do know one thing, Loial said the ways could be destroyed. All they have to do is remove both entry leaves from the doors of all the ways and the ways will die. Then they can grow new ones with the talisman and be on thier way.


created: 2002-02-13 07:16:58
subject: <b>Perhaps. . .</b>
body:
I think that the Taint has a lot to do with the condition of the Ways.  If we look at the Heart Stone made after the taint upon Saidin, we see that it crumbles and flakes.  (The only example of which are the Seals.)  Crumbling as the seals are, we see a paralle to the bridges, ramps and stones within the Ways.  I believe this condition is from the taint.<br />As for the Dark Wind, well, remember the Way Gates were created from Saidin.  The Dimension of the Ways were always there.  The Gates themselves were grown, and the bridges, paths, and ramps were placed/grown within.  So while all the Gates to the place of the Ways maybe destroyed, the Ways will always exist.<br />So where does the origin of the Dark Wind come from?  The two things which no one can escape from once held by them, are the Dark Wind and Mashadar.  Yet Paidin Fain has escaped both!  Paidin by the power invested in him by the Dark One, survived Mashadar and took with it its corruption.  If we look at the Dark Wind which removes the soul from its victims, Paidin should have been mindless when he followed the group to Fal Darra in the first book.  Remember, the Dark Wind was right at the Gateway and Paidin was still INSIDE the Ways when Morainne held back the Dark Wind enough for everyone to get out.<br />Now it could be argued that Fain by this time could be powerful enough to withstand it.  However, he didn't suffer any effects from it and still made it through. So what does this imply?<br />First, The Dark Wind could have always been there.  Even Loial states as much the first time they travel the Ways.<br />Second, The books state that Mordeth Arrived at Shadar Logoth, it never mentioned the whether it was by the ways or not.<br />Third, Its interesting that Mashadar takes the physical body of its victims while the Dark Wind takes their minds.  Could The Dark Wind be a manifestation of Mashadar in another dimension.  The victims taken in Shadar Logoth becoming more souls added to the Dark Wind?  Dimensions in WoT, are reflections from the Prime, with unknown qualities.  The Dark Wind patrols the Ways the same as Mashadar patrols that abandoned city.  I believe the taint which caused the decay of the ways, and darkened them, allowed the survival of the Dark Wind.  As Mashadar can not stand the light of day, so the full brightness of the Ways, prevented the comming of the Dark Wind.  Birthed in the beginings of Shadar Logoth, weak until the taint corrupted and darkened it enough to manifest itself, the Dark Wind waited.<br />However all this is a braid pull for falsehood if the Way Gate in Shadar Logoth isn't the link between Mashadar and the Dark Wind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Adieu-<br />           Nakx<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 02:28:47
subject: <b>Mashadar=Mashin Shin because....</b>
body:
....if I remember correctly, both reared their ugly heads around the time of the Trolloc Wars.  I'm surprised no-one else made this connection.<br /> Mordeth corrupted Aridhol during the Trolloc Wars, and the Ways became inhabited by Mashin Shin after the TW.  This leads me to believe the two are the same, or at least connected. <br /> I agree with Telamon's other thoughts on this topic; they hadn't occurred to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 00:32:17
subject: <b>The Black Wind</b>
body:
The Black Wind speaks to Fain when it catches him in the Ways.  According to Moraine after his interrogation, Fain said that half the voices accepted him as kindred, and half were afraid of him.<br />The Ways were grown with a tainted power-- just because the Taint makes men who channel with its presence go mad doesn't mean that it can't corrupt what they do, as well.  Moraine acts when channeling much as if she's channeling with the Taint, as a man would outside the ways.<br />It's my own opinion that the Taint grew in the ways, which started out lightly corrupted and, like any infection, festered over time.<br />Half the voices recognised Fain as brother because he, like they, was a product of the Dark One's work.  The other half feared him because Mordeth was in him already, and they could sense that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Behold, my loyal armies...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 00:28:26
subject: <b>6 people agiist four people for.....</b>
body:
looks like 60 percent of Wotmania users have no sense of humor whatshowever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 10:04:13
subject: <b>Raserei...</b>
body:
...I swear, if you pull a Lennon on RJ I'm gonna track you down!  It's taking long enough as it is for him to finish this blasted series...I'd hate to see how long it would take if RJ was shot by a insane fan.<br /><br />^_^<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 03:34:48
subject: <b>Shot?</b>
body:
Somehow I don't think anyone's going to shoot RJ...I could be wrong. More likely fans are going to rise up and revolt, find an old dungeon somewhere, and hold him there until he tells us what's going to happen. ;P<br /><br />Anywho...funny thought, about Rand-DragonReborn-Dude being the anti-Christ. <br /><br />(see? I have a sense of humor.) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 10:02:26
subject: <b>If RJ dies...</b>
body:
If RJ dies I believe the world may just crumble. Unless he finishes the series first. A dead author with an unfinished series is not good. Although the thought of our good ole pal Rand being the anti-christ is extremely funny. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Death is the key to life<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> A dull blade is better then none at all.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-04 10:48:03
subject: <b>He's PURE EVIL! KILL HIM!</b>
body:
Of course Rand is evil!  It's so obvious I don't know why anyone could doubt it!  He's the Dragon, the Beast 666 of Revelation! His True Name is a corruption of the word Lucifer!  He's preparing himself for a battle called Armageddon! Everyone has been fooled by the Beast to believe that he will be a great leader of Good!  And his False Prophet, Masema, is spreading his fell message! We must rally around Ishamael (Ishmael=&quot;God will hear him&quot; ) before it's too late!!! The Trollocs are our friends!  Narg will lead us to a new heaven, for the old heaven and the old earth have passed away!  Onward, Narg, onward, to the City of God!!!<br /><br />At last, at long last I understand the true meaning of the words &quot;Narg stay.  Narg smart.&quot;  Narg could have gone on, up into the embrace of God in Heaven, but he stayed to help guide us, like a Christian boddhisattva.  I have to go.  I need to re-read the whole series now.  I've been missing the true meaning of the series all along because I've been blinded by the Dragon's honey-coated lies...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 17:04:42
subject: <b>The 4 Riders</b>
body:
Rand indeed is the Anti-Christ and he have his 4 Riders of Aocalipse and thay are<br /><br />Lan - Death (he is wed to death)<br /><br />Mat - War (Nobody know about it better then him}<br /><br />Perrin - Hunger {he never seems to have time to eat lately)<br /><br />Nynaeve - Plage {For Obvius reasons)<br /><br />what I don't understand is who is the champion of good that will save us (Narg is dead after all) my guess is Bela.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> SURAVYE NINTO MANSHIMA TAISH'ITE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> MNDE MUAGHDE AES SEDAI MISAIN YE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> May you find good hunting, and shes to bring you many cubs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Zedrick Al'Stone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 00:11:52
subject: <b>I also noticed....</b>
body:
I thought it was more appropriate that Shai'tan was first mentioned on page 666 of tDR (paperback, anyway--it's not even close to that in any other edition).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 02:23:12
subject: <b>Another point...</b>
body:
In my paperback copy of The Great Hunt, Rand gets his &quot;mark of the beast&quot; (if you will) from Ishamael in Falme on page 666. If that's not pointing the way like a neon sign, what is?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 10:56:54
subject: <b>on 666</b>
body:
I have a funny habit of reading page 666 before i start each book to see what happens....and i think we meet Cadsuane (spellign?) on 666 of a book.....i always thought she was a bit satanic.....<br />this definately calls for a re-reading of all 666's<br /><br /><br />im not wierd, just bored<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 23:01:33
subject: <b>666 in three books</b>
body:
I noticed awhile back that in three of the books, paperback, but not the first additions that rand, and the forces of good win on page 666, it was the paperback, though, so i just figured there was a satanist or two at TOR books, unless RJ had it planned from the beginning to make rand evil in the end, woulsn't that be an odd twist?


created: 2003-05-02 10:56:42
subject: <b>That Bast@#$!</b>
body:
He's anti-christ!!!<br />Kill Rand! Burn him to the stake. No hang him or maybe chop his head off. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />TheGnome<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-25 22:49:09
subject: <b>duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumb!</b>
body:
Anyone who comments on the topic of 666 and the Anti-Christ should know that 666 is the number of the beast and does not have any direct relation to the Anti-Christ


created: 2004-03-27 06:48:25
subject: <b>What about.....</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> just testing these smiley codes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-03 23:13:41
subject: <b>Wait a dog-gone minute...</b>
body:
didn't Ishy call himself Ba-al-za-mon (Lord of the Flies) and NOT the Great Lord of the Dark?  But I thought... ahh, f**k it.  It sounds good to me (Johny Walker, Black Label)...<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-02-03 23:52:32
subject: <b>still couldn't get it</b>
body:
I tried Bundeburg Rum when I was finally starting to follow what you were saying ...well to tell the truth i woke up with my head on the desk so i gave up  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lurker Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />mother to siamese cats Monty and Cleo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 00:19:22
subject: <b>Tequila</b>
body:
I started to try this with some Jose Cuervo, and was going to have a point to this post, but it's lost somewhere.  If I follow you right, Bela should now be able to resume a romance with Moridin, who among other things can apparently support a family as a rat exterminator, but I keep trying to understand your genius, and it makes my head hurt.  Oh, god, that's not good.  One more shot.  I bow to your discerning judjement.


created: 2002-02-04 02:18:31
subject: <b>*applauds*</b>
body:
*reads it again, squints and reads it again, gulps another hot chocolate with plenty of rum, and claps* Ya-a-ay! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> That was astounding. My whole view of the series has been changed forever.. or until the sober morning.<br /><br />   Hey, while you're at it, please explain the whole family tree of WoT characters. And make a chart with each character next to the many mythical figures they were slighty based on. And tell me that one *sips hot rum..er chocolate* about where someone could be their own grandma/pa.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-04 03:27:26
subject:
<b>Great! Thank you! You're amazing, you're a genius! (Hmm, you said that yourself too, well that just proves the point...)</b>

body:
I had the characters somewhat mixed up in my head, but that theory made it all clear to me! Now I know exactly who's who!<br /><br />Maybe I should print this theory and put the paper as a bookmark for the WoT book I'm giving to my friend who never has read Wot...<br /><br />(And I survived on hot chocolate, as the liquor stores are a bit too far and I'm having a flu.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 04:28:32
subject: <b>*falls over laughing*</b>
body:
Have to agree with your ~logic~. There can be no doubt that Sammael is Demandred. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 04:42:13
subject: <b>Light forsaker!</b>
body:
*lol* That is unbelievably funny...where'd you come up with that? And for getting drunk so I can understand it, well, I had to skip that part. Oh well...at least I'm sixteen now, and can get a driver's license at some point. <br /><br />I'm still laughing. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 13:27:06
subject: <b>*Tips empty JD bottle upside down and shakes her head*</b>
body:
Well, that didn't do anything but all sentimental and weepy.<br /><br />*scrounges change for a 40oz of Colt 45*<br /><br />Can't they all just get along?  (sniffle..)<br />Hey, did I hear someone say something about Chex Mix?<br /><br />Who would be the pretzels and who would be the honey roasted peanuts of said Forsaken Chex Mix??? hmmmm...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 23:38:30
subject: <b>But what about...</b>
body:
Rand, who went through the columns and came out confused and called himself Aveindha, who was drinking whatever Aiel drink and thought she was Taim, who was going mad and thought he was Slayer, who was demented and thought he was hopper. That means Rand=Aveindha=Taim=Slayer=Hopper.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> it's in the book<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 02:16:02
subject: <b>Mind Boggling</b>
body:
Man I got no idea what the hell you're talkin about, but you done touched a brothas heart. You reached me homey. Now someone pass me a mug of wolfs fire so I can get closer to understanding this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 16:15:02
subject: <b>Man, you're jus plain crazy...</b>
body:
Still, you might be right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 19:09:36
subject: <b>The true identity of Demandred</b>
body:
You're all wrong. <br />Bela is Demandred. <br />Duh, sillies!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 20:11:09
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
Bela is Egwen, or was it Siuan. She's one of those two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 00:50:00
subject: <b>Moiraine and Siuan are Pillow friends</b>
body:
Wait a minute, what this have to with anything?<br />             I don't not exactly sure either.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 04:51:30
subject: <b>Pillow-friends</b>
body:
Bela is the result of an argument that Moiraine and Siuan had. Siuan said something particularly insulting, and Moiraine had a cow. Oh, wait...Bela's a pony. Oh, well. Either way, it was very painful, and that's why Moiraine's so stiff. *grin* It's also why Bela is able to channel, and able to Dreamwalk, thus why she was there for Egwene when she was needed, thus why Egwene got saddle sores atop her striped bottom. <br />Oh...and where does Shaidar Haran fit into it all? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 14:10:17
subject: <b><i>Oh don't give me none more of that Old Janx Spirit</i></b>
body:
<i>No, don't you give me none more of that Old Janx Spirit<br />For my head will fly, my tongue will lie, my eyes will fry and I may die<br />Won't you pour me one more of that sinful Old Janx Spirit.</i><br /><br />Ancient mining song from the madranite mining belts of Oriion Beta.<br /><br />I laughed pretty loud while reading that, as it echoes my own closeted theory that Robert Jordan is in his own books masquerading simultaneously as Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan and Ian Duncan Smith. Well, have you ever seen them in the same room together?<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 15:02:12
subject: <b>Ha! If you guys think that is confusing...</b>
body:
...you should hear my theory on how the whole &quot;hotdogs in packages of 10 and buns in packages of 8&quot; thing is a huge government plot involving microchips planted in our bodies at birth and the Global Positioning System!<br /><br />Anyway, I'm glad my theory went over so well...now, maybe I should post a follow-up telling how Cydane is actually Shadar Haran's sister, and that Haran himself is actually a robot from 100,000 years in the future?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 21:43:21
subject: <b>You Left Someone Out...</b>
body:
Thom Merrelin, who is of course every single king/queen in all of the Westlands (except Morgause, because having a love affair with yourself is logistically difficult.)  The thing is, Thom's doing it by design, not because he's confused. Long ago he realized that no one else was as good at Daes'dae'mar as he was, and in order to find a worthy opponent he had to start playing against himself. <br /><br />You want proof? Just look at the Borderlanders.  All the Borderland kings/queens have dropped out of sight b/c it's too hard for Thom to get up there these days, even if he can channel.  (Well, of course he can channel! How else does he pull off being in nine places at once? Of course, being able to channel AND running the world means that he's Rand.  Who was, I believe, Aviendha....)<br /><br />Oh, to heck with it. There's only one character in the entire series, and he/she is REALLY, REALLY MESSED UP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 13:14:38
subject: <b>Proverbial Gourds</b>
body:
Honestly, some of these theories are completely whacked out.  Here's my theory...some of you guys are out of your proverbial gourds!


created: 2002-02-14 13:32:19
subject: <b>There is a proverb about my gourds?</b>
body:
I knew I was growning pumpkins for a reason!  They're proverbial!  Sweetness!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 12:07:51
subject: <b>forkroot?</b>
body:
I drank forkroot once, is it safe for me to try?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 00:19:59
subject: <b>Really?</b>
body:
But I thought I WAS a gourd...<br />Al Gore is made of wood.<br />Sung wood?<br />So, almost half this country voted for a tree from Randland!  (Hey, man, I happen to LIKE that term!)<br />That means he must really be Demandred!  (No emotion, big nose...)  Who is Sammael!  AL GORE IS A FORSAKEN!!!!<br />I knew there was something familiar about all of this...<br /><br />And Olver is the Creator.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 11:25:43
subject: <b>WOAH!!! *hiccoughs* IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!</b>
body:
Man, when I was sober I thought you were full of it, but after about 3 gallons of vodka I have seen the Light. This is the ultimate theory on the Forsaken. You left out the fact that Rand, who found out he was Tam, finally realized WHY he couldn't be his own father and killed himself. He was reborn as a chick who could channel. Not wanting to pass up such an opportunity, he went to the Tower and, grinning wildly, became pillowfriend to many a novice and Accepted. So, Rand=Tam=Dead Tam=Pillowfriend Novice. But the most important fact in all of WoT, is that Moiraine and Siuan were pillowfriends!!! C'MON THEY'RE PILLOWFRIENDS!!! *thuds unceremoniously to the floor in a drunken stupor*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 14:49:36
subject: <b>er...</b>
body:
i don't think you could go over that once more could you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 01:02:01
subject: <b>It makes perfect sense!</b>
body:
There's just one thing that I was wondering... the Dark One's wedding anniversary was mentioned a couple times. Who's he married to?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Out of my mind, back in 5 minutes.<br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 00:10:30
subject: <b>The Dark One's old lady...</b>
body:
You asked...so by the honor of the Swordsouled I must tell.  The Dark One is married to...<br /><br />...<br />...<br />...<br />...<br />...<br /><br />...ETHEL MERMAN!!!!  Yes, everything is indeed coming up roses for the Dark One...discovering that there's no business like show business (well...no business I know, anyway), our friend Leafblighter decided he got a kick out of her and eloped (much to the dismay of the Creator at the time, who was trying to her her in the sack).  Although she did leave Old Fetch for a brief period after the sealing of the Bore claiming that &quot;It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world&quot;  But came back to him later.<br /><br />(Any of you who get this, you have my respect)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 22:00:39
subject: <b>I get it!</b>
body:
LOL!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Yup, there's no business like show business, there's no business I know.... *wanders off singing*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Not only am I perfect, I'm <font color="red">Canadian!</font><br /><br />&quot;Lock and load, brides of Christ!&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 09:43:59
subject: <b>*needs a bottle of Jim Beam just for reading that*</b>
body:
My head hurts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>oddflow</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 12:02:52
subject: <b>AAARRRGHHH</b>
body:
*head explodes just like Raserei's when reread in the morning with a splitting headache*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 17:26:45
subject: <b>hehe... Crazy ol' Lews Therin, I like your sig...</b>
body:
&quot;Life is like a box of live hand grenades,<br />you're sitting there one minute, and the next thing you know, your head is across the street in a mailbox.&quot;<br /><br />On the downside, an exploded head must really hurt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Not only am I perfect, I'm <font color="red">Canadian!</font><br /><br />&quot;Lock and load, brides of Christ!&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 17:59:53
subject: <b>Hold on....</b>
body:
If there's only one character in the series, that would mean that Rand=The Dark One...which would mean that he's fighting himself and doesn't realise it.  Hmm, kinda like in The Prisoner when Number 6 is also Number 1...whee, ok, it must be some kind of weird metaphor!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> redushab <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-15 21:09:59
subject: <b>All right...</b>
body:
...I'm just confused.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Not only am I perfect, I'm <font color="red">Canadian!</font><br /><br />&quot;Lock and load, brides of Christ!&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 23:37:50
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
This theory only holds up due to the fact that Demandred is everyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />How much time of your life did you was-- er, spend writting this confusing theory?


created: 2002-10-05 01:24:08
subject: <b>Brilliance</b>
body:
You TRULY are a genius. That was the most insightful thing i've ever read. I vote that we make our friend here the new God, for his wisdom, humour and his ability to make us drunk from trying to understand things.<br /><br />All Hail our New God!<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-21 12:57:56
subject: <b>All hail our new god?</b>
body:
what have you been smoking because the only time anyone comes up with anything that stupid is not when you are drinking but on the drugs<br />any way it was great but i got it without drinking because its faster to sit in the flower shop and inhale the fumes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Soon turns the world where all want to be me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> I am the greatest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I am death, essence of neutrality and all bow to my power. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-15 08:52:08
subject: <b>Thank you, thank you...</b>
body:
My first act as new God is to formally pardon the former God of those embarressing sexual assault charges.  My second act is to proclaim the hula as the official dance of my chosen people...who are, of course, the Aztecs...but as they are all dead I'm afraid there won't be much more hulaing than there already is.<br /><br />Now...perhaps I should make black white to kill people at zebra crossings...nah...too Adamsish...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-02 16:48:09
subject: <b>Haven't you left some things/people out?</b>
body:
What about Nameless Darkfriend #03?<br />What about Padan Fain?<br />What about the Sea Folk (I assume they are also one person along with a host of minor Aes Sedai characters)?<br />Isn't Tuon actually Keyser Soze?


created: 2003-02-01 14:37:43
subject: <b>You are very close,but not so right</b>
body:
There is one little mistake.After Rand killed NARG The CREATOR possessed Bela.And in fact I'm Bela.             The CREATOR=Narg=Bela=me. Now bow!!! I'm going to drink with my bestest friends DO and SAURON<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> }0<br />


created: 2003-02-09 19:51:16
subject: <b>Brilliant</b>
body:
Unfortunately I am under the legal drinking age for the next 9 months, so I could not fully understand your most excellent theory. But it was great, really really great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-23 18:38:11
subject: <b>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA</b>
body:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA******Falls out of his chair, bumps his head and lays unconcious until he is found in a semi-paralitic state of histeria after reading such a HILARIOUS theory******<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity....<br /><b><i>I AM THAT LINE!!</i></b><br />Please don't tell me that I'm normal, or I'll have to get professionals to set you straight.<br />http://www.geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 06:43:45
subject: <b>(groan)</b>
body:
(head is on keyboard,slight drool puddle forming on the g key moaning softly) He forgot Bela, why did he forget Bela?!


created: 2003-05-04 19:06:13
subject: <b>Ouch...</b>
body:
LIGHT!  Now that my entire brain has just experienced a short circuit malfunction from actually trying to process that, I think I'm going to go crawl in a corner and cry for an hour.  And I'm not sure that's because that was hilarious or my head hurts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 00:19:58
subject: <b>intresting</b>
body:
does it bother you that RJ has three hit men out looking for you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-25 00:08:46
subject: <b>Ha!</b>
body:
&quot;does it bother you that RJ has three hit men out looking for you?&quot;<br /><br />It would, but unfortunately for them I'm a ninja...and I will totally flip out and stab them if they try to take me out.<br /><br />Facts:<br /><br />1. Ninjas are mammals<br />2. Ninjas fight ALL the time<br />3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people<br /><br /><br />Sorry, just had to do that :p<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 03:18:17
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
That was plain confusing.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 11:55:40
subject: <b>This is a pretty good idea</b>
body:
I agree that the Dark One was trying to play within the rules of the Pattern to break himself free (crazy Asha'man would definitely bring chaos and a second breaking), but now he's realized his mistake. Rand is a ta'varen, and the Pattern knows what the DO is trying to do, and so it guides Rand to cleanse saidin. Now the DO is panicking (as much as something like that CAN panic), and wants to kill Rand. Easier said than done, though. He's ta'varen, after all. I think that the DO is playing a losing game across two Ages . . . the AoL was only a set-up for this Age, where Tarmon Gaiden will happen . . . and perhaps the DO will be defeated forever (or at least for a long time . . . or maybe replaced by Fain . . . who knows?). It's a losing game, but the DO is desperate. And desperate people with that much power can do dangerous things to win.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 12:03:03
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
The only thing I really don't agree with is the part about the breaking, what does the DO gain by having a second breaking?  I think that he needs Rand to do something in order for him to break fully free.  Or maybe he wanted Rand for his own as a proxy to work through, a very strong ta'vern proxy.  Maybe now he finally sees that it is too dangerous for Rand to stay free.


created: 2002-02-06 14:01:09
subject: <b>One little mistake</b>
body:
As I realize it was not Semiraghe who sent the Trollocs and Myrddraal to aid Rand in the Stone but Lanfear. Sem would not have a reason for it, while Lanfear at that time still had her inner hope to win LTT for herself. But of course it doesn&#180;t matter for the theory as a whole<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 14:25:14
subject: <b>Semirhaage DID send the shadowspawn to the Stone.</b>
body:
She thinks this to herself in LoC when talking to Sammael.<br /><br />On the Theroy, though, I don't thik that the DO wanted Rand dead in WH, just Moridin wanted the CK. He tells this to one of the renegade Asha'man (the one who Fain ices). He says that he doesn't care whether or not Rand lives. He just needs the Keys.<br /><br />It was the same part that we find out that Taim and Demandred gave seperate orders to the Renegades, thus they are different people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 16:02:11
subject: <b>The fischer...</b>
body:
I have always thought that Rand was like that fischer game Moridin was playing. In the end it is a chess match between the dark one and the creator to see who will control the fate of the fischer(Rand) He is not to be killed at any juncture but either converted or triumphant. Ishmael tells Rand that they have been allies before as well as enemies which would account for the presence of good/evil and the constant struggle for balance. Their must have been ages where the Dark one was indeed &quot;free&quot; in so far as he could exhert his will unilaterally on everyone. But, eventually the chosen one would rise again and the game would resume. None of the other players can kill Rand, only the DO and the Creator can determine his fate.


created: 2002-02-06 17:15:39
subject: <b>The DO can't have been free</b>
body:
1. By definition, when the DO is free, he remakes the wheel in his own image. Given that this has not happened, the DO must never have been free. He may have been able to influence the world, as he has since the Bore was drilled, but he has not been free (IMHO).<br /><br />2. the title is 'Fisher King' (not fischer) cross-ref to Arthurian myth, there's heaps of info around.<br /><br />3. I have a feeling that rather than being discrete on-off cycles of 80 years, that Ishamael was free for periods of around 40 years (eg like the tip of a wave), but the time in between his free periods was larger (like the trough of a wave). Either way, it's obviously a bit of a parallel to the DO's own freedom from the Bore, especially given that Ishy's sealed up in it an all. Anyone have something concrete on this (BWB?)<br /><br />Still thinking about the theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 17:50:21
subject: <b>The DO and Moridin</b>
body:
For a first theory, this seems like a pretty good one.  Personnally, I agree that neither the DO nor Moridin want Rand dead.  First, he pulls on too much of the pattern, and from all I can see, the DO does not so much want to destroy the pattern as remake it in his own image.  Second, in the final scene of the Chosen at Shayol ghul, they (I think Demandred,) asks Moridin if they are now free to kill Rand and it describes Moridin seeming to balance two things between his hands before saying that it did not matter, so long as they captured the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />From all this, I believe the wheel will turn until it reaches a time of maximum potential for the DO to break free of the seals binding the pattern together and TG will occur.  Altering the pattern itself by destroying Rand is probably something that would create a kind of wild card effect, which neither side wants, in favor of a given set of conditions.  As for Moridin, in a way he is kind of an enigma:  you can't lose if you play both sides?  I would give a LOT to know what he really meant by that.


created: 2002-02-07 16:23:53
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
i seem to remember that ishy is free every 40 years or so and that would explain all his apearences.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 16:42:38
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
Hmm? pretty good. <br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />A dull blade is better then none at all.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-02-12 02:57:19
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
not much to argue with.  you make points and back them up.  unless i am missing something major(like you said) then i agree with everything you said.  sounds like you have a great way of thinking.  keep it up.<br /><br />raistlin dourden<br />darkelf archmage<br />master of all time


created: 2002-02-12 12:59:27
subject: <b>Second Breaking?</b>
body:
The idea of a second breaking is a sound one because well, we know that the seals are weakening, which means the DO is getting closer to being free.  The only think that might prevent that from happening is an &quot;organized&quot; attempt to re-seal the prison.  If a second breaking were to occur, then the world would be in the grip of too much chaos to form any kind of alliances to counter the DO.  Chaos, buys him time, which is what will aid him the most.  Killing Rand, who causes chaos to some extent by being tave'ern would be foolish because here we have an instrument that could cause widespread destruction.  There is no one else who could influence the world enough to cause the requisite problems.<br /><br />Well thought theory!<br /><br />//i\<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-17 03:31:49
subject: <b>appreciate the feed back</b>
body:
My thanks to everyone who has commented on this theory. I just have one question. Twice I have heard people make reference to a fourty year cycle for Ishmael. I'm just wondering where that information came from.


created: 2002-04-03 05:05:29
subject: <b>About Ishmaels 40 yr cycle thing'um</b>
body:
it's from &quot;Robert Jordan's Guide to the Worlds of the Wheel of Time&quot; or some equally poorly titled book.<br /><br />It's basically a socialogical/mythological/historical reference book, only covers up to book 9.  Includes maps and colour pictures (which are very bad, except for 1 picture of Loial and a few of the Seanchan(sp?) exotic animals).<br /><br />Worth reading, better to borrow that to buy though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">what? sorry,.....I'd stopped listening.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-06 11:28:17
subject: <b>2nd breaking</b>
body:
I find it hard to beleive that there will be a second breaking. We can all remember the beginning of every WoT book: &quot;The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass...and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.&quot; To me this means that the male half of the true source has to be clean and taint-free when the Age of Legends comes again, and probably even before that. We know that Rand and Nynaeve have cleaned the taint, and its my thinking that Rand will eventually reseal the Dark One back into his prison. Both will probably remain unchanged until Lanfear bores into the DO's prison in the Age of Legends, and the DO taints saidin. <br /> Otherwise a good theory, I don't doubt that a 2nd breaking may be what the DO wants.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ovid_01<br /><br />seek paradise<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-02 03:56:11
subject: <b>Ishamael couldn't have made the Ashaman.</b>
body:
Firstly, if one assumes that Taim is a darkfriend (which I do), that is a major argument in favor of the theory.<br /><br />But at one point of your theory you seem to be saying that Ishamael could have created the Ashaman if he wanted, (or are you indirectly saying that only Rand could?).<br />But just let me make it clear: In order to create the Ashaman you need: 1)The name of the Dragon Reborn 2)The fact that Rand is ta'veren. These are the two things that powers the recruiting of Ashaman. None of the Forsaken have any of these qualities and thus couldn't have created the Ashaman


created: 2002-10-13 22:35:54
subject: <b>You fools!!!</b>
body:
OK, first paragraph, im going to bring this crashing around your head. You ask why Ishmael (i cant spell) doesn't balefire Rand first thing, when he has the chance. <br />As I've seen in so many othere theories, and have meant to talk about, the reason that Ishmael or the DO or any of them didn't balefire rand or any of the important taveran was because they weren't sure what would happen. And balefire can't be reversed. So, if your going to burn out someones thread from the pattern, and you beleive that persons thread goes back ad infinitum, then you invesigate, make sure you've got the right guy. Even a minor character in Randland could have astromonical consequences, so the dark one doesn't want to screw over his chances of possible escape. They have a bazillion lifetimes, so why blow those zillions of chances on a misidentification.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If brute force isn't working, you're not using enough.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-25 21:41:34
subject: <b>What are you blathering about Adelmonk?</b>
body:
Did you even bother to read the theory that was posted. I appreciate meaningful criticism, but your comment neither makes any sense nor does it pertain to this theory. The question posed was why the DO didn't 'kill' Rand, and I answered this question in the theory. So would you care to rephrase your comment?


created: 2005-01-09 06:03:15
subject: <b>But what does the DO really want?</b>
body:
This theory leads onto another question. What does it mean when RJ says the DO will remake the wheel in his own image?<br /><br />What does the DO want once he is free? To completely change the world...if his image is represented by Myrdraal (Shaidar Haran, the mysterious ability to travel via shadows, etc. connect the DO to Myrdraal), then the wheel would become a place where cruelty and fear are the norm. Is this what the DO wants? If so, why? I wonder if RJ will deal with this question of the DO's motivation in the final book. It is by far the most mysterious thing about the series.<br /><br />As far as Rand goes, perhaps he is a symbol of the wheel; the DO doesn't want to destroy the wheel, he just wants to remake it. Maybe he needs to remake Rand to do that.


created: 2005-03-06 19:29:19
subject: <b>What the DO wants</b>
body:
The only way that the DO can escape his prison and remake the world in his image is by defeating Rand in TG. (it is written in the prophecies, i think, but dont quote me on it.)<br />In order to do so, he must keep Rand alive until then.<br />This would account for the actions of the DO and Moridin in assisting Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 01:29:01
subject: <b>The True Power</b>
body:
Yes but can he use the True power the reson that they bore a hole into the DO's prison is to be able to touch the True power. And if they are trapped inside the prison can they use it there, and as I think that it is Moghedien that duringen one of hers vissit to Shayol Ghul that when she is talking to the DO that she can fell the True Power and that if she tried to use it she would die. And I don't think that Ishamael could survive it either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 02:22:05
subject: <b>Perhaps...</b>
body:
perhaps he was using it at the time when the Bore was sealed, that may have kept him 'awake' when all the others were traped in some sort of 'sleep'.  That was the reason he had to use it so much, if he stoped or let go, he would be traped with the others.<br /><br />By the way, who says that the memories in Mat's head are not from his own past lives.  I think that that would run fairly well with the whole 'reincarnation' theme of the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 07:35:39
subject: <b>Everything but the Finn</b>
body:
I like this whole theory, nice job, it was very well thought out with one exception. I don't have my books handy right now but there is a paragrah about the Finn somewhere in there that they would not serve the dark one or his lackeys. I suppose that Ishamael could have gone through the doorway before he became a Forsaken but I think that the Finn would know about it and thus refuse to help him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 08:22:39
subject: <b>Ishamael</b>
body:
is a philosopher, that's where the past lives thing has come from. However, philosphers can be, and often are, wrong. Ishamael believes that the Dragon has turned to him before, but we KNOW that this could never have happened, if it did then the DO would have broken free which can also never have happened. So Ishamael has either simply got it wrong or he knows the truth and is lying.


created: 2002-02-07 09:21:24
subject: <b>About Moghedien</b>
body:
When she said if she would die if she used the True Power in Shayol Ghul, she meant that the Dark One would kill her. Remember that you cannot channel in Shayol Ghul without his permission, nor can you use the True Power without his permission.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-07 10:06:34
subject: <b>Re: Modhegien</b>
body:
*QUOTE*When she said if she would die if she used the True Power in Shayol Ghul, she meant that the Dark One would kill her. Remember that you cannot channel in Shayol Ghul without his permission, nor can you use the True Power without his permission.*QUOTE*<br /><br />I could be wrong but I thought she was refferring to the one power not the true power in that scene.<br />


created: 2002-02-07 11:52:57
subject: <b>moridin/moghedien</b>
body:
I believe that Moghedien was referring to the One Power.  Then we must assume that True Power is only given to those the DO wishes, so she was not even considering using it.  Moghedien cannot just channel the True power freely.  If it were that easy, then all of the Forsaken would have used it to kill each other off, kill Rand off, etc.<br /><br />I have a little idea.  During the battle when the bore was sealed, Ishamael (now Moridin) could have been using the True Power in the fight.  That would explain why Ishy was able to 'be awake' while the other Chosen were hibernating.  Also, Ishy could have been the one that the DO used to taint Saidin.  <br /><br />That would be why he was using the True Power at that time when the bore was sealed.  The DO had to use someone to do his work, even at the bore where he is at his strongest.  Otherwise the DO would have just killed Lews Therin right there.  Ishy was the receptacle that tainted Saidin for the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 12:07:56
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
that's why the bore had to be sealed... so Ishy wouldn't be able to access the True Power and taint Saidin (but LTT fails to stop him before that happened).  In Winter's Heart, The Chosen state that when Rand and Nynaeve try to cleanse Saidin, that they would be able to know where they are to stop them.  So that's why LTT was able to know something was going on in Shayul Ghul and try to put an end to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 12:09:44
subject: <b>Who said it?</b>
body:
Ummmmm, Robert Jordan has said that the memories aren't mat's ancestors or past lives.  I'll go find the quote amidst the various collections of chat transcripts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 12:13:10
subject: <b>hey Telvin, found the quote about Mat's memories...</b>
body:
This is from an April 2001 chat in the Netherlands...<br /><br />[RV_NL&gt; What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??<br /><br />[@R-JORDAN&gt; mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men. <br /><br />That pretty much sums it up.<br /><br />The admins triumph again! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 12:27:28
subject: <b>The Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
Good theory - well thought out. There is one question that the theory raises that I want to address - that of the rebirth of the dragon.<br /><br />As we know, the wheel continually spins out lives - we can assume that when someone dies it is not long before they are reborn into another body. So, did the spirit of the dragon simply wander in space for several thousand years, or was he continually reborn like all the others, until that fateful rebirth on the slopes of SG (Dragonmount? I don't remember), where he would begin fulfilling the prophecies because the wheel deemed it was time.<br /><br />Also, if he was continually reborn, could each rebirth channel? Sort of against the genetic channeling theory, but Hawkwing said that they have fought many times, sometimes as friends, sometimes as enemies. If we assume that Hawkwing was only added to the heros of the horn in the middle of this age, then they could only have fought with or against each other for the last thousand years or so. That means that the dragons intrermediate rebirths were people of reknown, possibly false dragons.<br /><br />Whoa, maybe I should just post my own theory. Anyway, that's my<br /><br />$0.02<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 14:20:28
subject: <b>Moridin is Ishamael?</b>
body:
Though at the moment I agree-I don't think it's certain-He could be Shaidar Haran.<br />They both smile a lot,<br />They both show an ability to channel,<br />and the Fade would be even less concerned about the D.O. than Ishamael.<br />Shaidar was looking for a way to be away from Shayol Ghul for some time-Perhaps Moridin is this way.<br /><br />I don't think this myself-but it's just that there are other possibilities-(It also neatly allows Taim to be Ishamael-but that's stretching things)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 17:22:02
subject: <b>comment on Moghedien</b>
body:
If she could use the true power, why wouldn't she have you used it when elayne and nynaeve where holding her? i would think an a'dam could only control someone's use of the one power. <br /><br />which makes me think that the dark one didn't grant her the power.


created: 2002-02-08 00:42:36
subject: <b>Re:hey Telvin, found the quote about Mat's memories...</b>
body:
But what about the memories of King Aemon that he had before <b>both</b> of the Twisted Doorways?  He was speaking the Old Tongue in tEotW and he remembered the battle at Aemon's Field in tDR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 17:54:05
subject: <b>The Place Of Waiting</b>
body:
Consider the Heroes of the Horn of Valere. While waiting for their next incarnation, they walk in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. They are also reborn as called for by the Pattern. What if there is a place where all Ta'veren wait for rebirth? In the AoL, many Aes Sedai were adept at traveling between worlds. What if Mr. Tedronai (Ishy) found the World of Waiting? When there, do Ta'veren retain memories of past lives just like the Heroes of the Horn? What if, by being present there, you could regain memories of you own past lives?<br /><br />Just a hair-brained possibility <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-12 09:08:50
subject: <b>Yes, that's true...</b>
body:
I'm just saying that most of his memories are from other men, and not from his own memories.  Since the old blood runs so strongly in him, he can remember things from either past lives or his ancestors.  BUT, we don't know which that is, so I would hesitate to just assume it's his past lives.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 09:10:02
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
I have to agree with that, well, all except the third one in the reasons he's not mad, about the finnland thing.  The finns destroy anybody who asks anything dealing with the darkone, so if that were one of his questions, i think he wouldnt be with us today.  I believe that he did all of the studying and got some info from the DO telling him about past lives.  Other than that, great theory.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 20:30:07
subject: <b>Using the True Power</b>
body:
Great Post - just a note on using the one power (don't have my books on me so this will be a bit vague).  When Moggy first meets Moridin, she notices the flecks that appear in Moridin's eyes, and knows instantly that he has being using the true power.  She then says something like &quot;You have been given a great privilidge&quot; or &quot;Do you understand the privilidge you have been given&quot; - words to that effect.  In either case, it made it seem that you have to be given permission by the DO to use the True Power - therefore I don't think Moridin is using it without the knowledge and permission on the DO.


created: 2002-03-03 08:04:08
subject: <b>Saa</b>
body:
The use of the True Power results in the Saa appearing in the eyes of the user the more often you use it the more Saa <br />appear. Before Rand kills Ishamael in Tear his eyes and mouth quite often appeared as caverns of flame could this possibly be the result of extreme overuse of the true power, say 3000 years worth


created: 2002-03-15 14:22:14
subject: <b>good thought</b>
body:
not a bad idea.... except that Ishy's appearance was probably a carefully maintined illusion done with the True Power...<br /><br />apart from that, the theory is a good one, except that we don't ACTUALLY know that Ishy was reborn... it has just been one of those things taken for granted, much like most quantum physics. (plz correct me if RJ has said otherwize)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;rant&gt; Canadian and proud of it! &lt;/rant&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 16:45:32
subject: <b>some musings...</b>
body:
Just som stuff I noticed reading Winter's Heart, more precisly Demandreds observations in the &quot;Wonderful news&quot; chapter<br /><br />&quot;...striding in as though he were the Dark Lord himself. He had often seemed to believe he was and the boy's face he wore now had not changed that.&quot;<br /><br />and<br /><br />&quot;The man was Nae'blis for now, but perhaps matters could be arranged so that he did not get another body the next time he died.&quot;<br /><br />What I mean? Well, Demandred seems to know who this fellow was in his past incarnation, atleast he is fully aware/convinced that Moridin is someones rebirth, and Ishamel is known for posing at the Dark One<br /><br />It fits nicely with the rest aswell, the arrongance and madness, excessive use of the True Power, the intimate knowledge of the Time of Legends, and so on


created: 2003-05-19 21:01:37
subject: <b>Just read wodnerful news again</b>
body:
Just read wodnerful news again zelion, and was looking for the right psot to mention basicly that same thing in. To me this clinches the obviousness of Morridin/Ishamael, even thoguh i've argued agaisnt it in the past.<br /><br />Though I can't show tyhe specific exmaples off hand right now, I do also remember that the other forsaken distrusted and disliked Ishamael rather greatly, but they didn't move agaisnt him ebcause they were rather afraid of him.<br /><br />At the end of that chapter Demandred thinks to himself that &quot;perhaps matters could be arranged so he did not get another body the next time he died&quot;(Winter's Heart, pg 319,hardcover)<br /><br />the 'next time' clinches it. The opening line also about this younger face not hiding the insanity or whatever also pretty well screams &quot;Demandred knows this is Ishamael&quot; what with the questions psoed ehre about the reborn ishamael's sanity. <br /><br />The question this chapter leacves me with is wetehr it proves or disproves the ever so popular Taimandred theory, because it gives evidence bopth ways, but that it for another post =P


created: 2003-05-19 21:09:15
subject: <b>one other thing</b>
body:
I do beleive, James, that you are very close to soemthing with the manipulation of ranbd. Especially when you see Morridin palying the boardgame that is obviously a emtaphor for what's gonig on in this new war of the shadow. The forces of light and dark are both manipulating a central figure Rand. Because either side needs him to meet those specific goal criteria to win.<br /><br />Think about the board game and it's rules. <br /><br />A)The fisher's mvoes change depending on wetehr it's on the lgiht or dark square.<br /><br />B)You can move the fisher(fisher/sheperd palells anyone?)onto the outter square of your colour to win. <br /><br />C)You can win by forcing the other player(if they're currently controlling the fisher) tomove to one of the goal squares of your colour.<br /><br />Okay that right there i think suggests exactly what James is saying. That both parties have certain goals they need to push the dragon to. However, failing that there is still rule d.<br /><br />D)The player who completely eradicates the other player wins.<br /><br />So I thnik that although the dragon being manipulated into certain actions is one way of winning, it is not neccesary TO win.


created: 2003-06-13 13:50:49
subject: <b>I disagree, he's nuts.</b>
body:
Is everyone forgetting &quot;I see a youthful face hasn't made him any saner.&quot;  I don't remember if those are the exact words, but I believe it was said by Cyndane speaking of Moridin.  Just because he is intelligent does not mean he is not crazy.  Someone could be really intelligent and still be completely looney.  There is no proof that what he does he does for the Dark One.  As Ishamael, when he stalked the ta'veren boys through their dreams, he was merely seeking amusment, I believe.  Think about it.  It has been Ages and Ages since Ishamael had faced off with Lews Therin, and all those Ages not being seal up most likely has helped him to loose a bit more of his sanity, but the point remains that he was to tourment Lews Therin, or at least his soul reborn.  Ishamael/Moridin is completely mad, whether or not it always outwardly shows.  I personally like him as much as I do because of the insanity, I believe it just makes him a more interesting character, much like Lews Therin. ^_^ I enjoy his mad ramblings.


created: 2004-02-15 16:15:30
subject: <b>but what is craziness?</b>
body:
just wanted to point out that the most dangerous insane people are the most clever... <br /><br /><br />A second point is about the Finn. You seem to assume that this race is able to do anything as if they had the same power as the Creator himself. But they have limited power (apart from the part about refering to the DO) as mentioned on the other side of the arched doorway, in the basements of the White Tower...<br />


created: 2004-10-16 13:24:07
subject: <b>moridin</b>
body:
I agree with most of what you have to say. also there are various forms of insanity and I think it was always clear that ishy wasn't exactly completly there. that fact might be why he's so favored by the dark one, ishy seems to be the only forsaken that realizes that the dark one may not have a need for human servants if he is freed, or that he may not be freed in this turning of the wheel. <br /><br />In other words Ishy seems to be a human version of the dark one, similiar goals, similiar ideals and similiar knowledge. being half sealed in the bore may have forced his soul to semi-merge with the dark one, or perhaps channeling the true power while being trapped, etc etc. a thousand and one ways for it to come into being but the outcome is the same. <br /><br />I don't think it matters who is called nae'blis as long as ishy is alive. it's pretty clear that when he's around the other forsaken take note. several times it's mentioned that he was in control during the age of legends, and now he's once again taking control. I believe he also offers rand the title if he turns to the dark one, with the assumption that ishy would be exempt anyway. he doesn't consider himself one of them. <br /><br />while there does seem to be some connection between a persons soul and the ability to channel (look at aran'gar and osan'gar) there is the possibility that Moridin can't channel anymore. if a soul burns out their ability in one life does that mean they never have it again in another? off the top of my head there seems to be only one instance where Ishameal actually channels and thats right before he dies in the third book (he creates a gateway that rand feels)


created: 2005-03-23 09:48:18
subject: <b>a problem</b>
body:
The only problem with this theory is that Ishamael/Moridin got his knowledge of his past lives from the Finns. This cannot be for the reason that this question (for Ishy) touches the Shadow and such questions have dire consequences. Also is it not possible that the DO gave him his knowledge of the pattern? Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a dark seed growing<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath<br />Trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-16 09:59:40
subject: <b>Mat thought not from is ancestor...</b>
body:
Robert Jordan said<br /><br />[@R-JORDAN&gt; mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men. <br /><br />To all  his memories came from his past life.... not his ancestor<br /><br />Definition of ancestor: oldest member of a family normaly they are long dead....<br /><br />In WOT a soul is reborn and a soul as no gender ( check the women who channel saidin... Halima i think)<br /><br />A soul can be reborn everywhere and according to boudisme, we can be reborn as animal if we are unworthy<br /><br />SO Mat memories come from is past life<br /><br />but then some may say that the other part of the quote<br /><br />quote : did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.<br /><br />The last 3 word can mean anything, from other men. soul reborn is not the same men reborn only the same soul.


created: 2002-02-07 12:10:10
subject: <b>100%</b>
body:
Oh yeah... <br /><br />I like this idea because it makes alot of sense.  So as RJ would say, let's RAFO<br /><br />:-P<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 12:45:22
subject: <b>The truth...</b>
body:
...seems to be in the middle: I think that indeed one of the armies is led by Gawyn. But I doubt that he leads all four. The other three can be anything, opposing houses, supporters from the Eastern parts of Andor (I can&#180;t imagine any Cairhienin), or even Whitecloaks. Yes I know, this all has been written in other blackboard postings, but I think it&#180;s important enough to repeat it here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 14:42:13
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
The last time we saw Gawyn was just after Dumai's Wells, and he was beginning to get fed up with the sisters he was traveling with. He was uncofortable with them dealing with Aiel. Plus, we have heard alot about Andoran soldiers patroling around Carheiren. It is possible he could have rallied a large number of these soldiers. If anyway could rally these soldiers it would be the crown prince.<br /><br />I like the idea of him leading one of these armies. Everyone is worried whether they are friend or foe, and an army lead by Gawyn would be more loyal to Elayne than anyone else.<br /><br />No, about the other three armies....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 16:50:48
subject: <b>Not so sure</b>
body:
My main disagreement with this argument is that I think Gawyn is going to have some serious involvement with Egwene pretty soon.  It just seems to me that Gawyn's place is at the white tower.  <br />          And as I recall, didn't he return to the white tower after Dumai's Wells?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 18:09:06
subject: <b>Of The Four......................</b>
body:
One could be Gawyns, a couple could be throne claiments and one might be the BLOODY Seanchan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 21:17:10
subject: <b>Aringill - A sea Port (or River)</b>
body:
Gawyn was last outside TV minding the Dumai Wells AS that escaped.<br /><br />Elayne makes a gateway for 3 couriers at the start of WH.<br /><br />Aringill is 3 days boat ride from TV.<br /><br />Gawyn's decision: Stay outside TV or go to Caemlyn and do what I was born to do.<br /><br />Yep he is on his way and is one of the armies. Morgase Loyal Queens Guards are still coming out of Cairhein according to Birgitte in WH<br /><br />Gawyn will gather them in with his Younglings. One army<br /><br />2 &amp; 3 armies are Naene &amp; Elenia.<br /><br />Whilst Elayne is kidnapped by BA (and rescued), these armies will battle outside Caemlyn.<br /><br />4th army? Norry is worried that it may be her Cairheinin supporters.<br />


created: 2002-02-08 14:51:20
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
I've always assumed that those four armies were the Borderlanders (Tenobia, etc.) who marched south. I mean, where else would four armies come from? I don't think they're a part of or allied with anybody in Caemlyn, that's for sure.<br /><br />What they're up to is beyond me, but if they do decide to support Elayne, their Aes Sedai are shortly going to learn a great deal of humility at the hands of the Windfinders.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 15:30:51
subject: <b>Borderlands?</b>
body:
I don't think it is the armys from the Borderlands as Elayne has already met them and so she  is likely to know if they are coming or not. <br />I agree that one on them is Gwayns and two are the opposers to Elayne but which is the third?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 16:52:33
subject: <b>Oh.. Really</b>
body:
the last we heard of Gawin was not in Dumani Wells it was when one of the sisters returned to TV and elaida said something about regretting his return<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 19:51:00
subject: <b>The Borderlanders...</b>
body:
One of my theories I posted on wheeloftime.com was that the Borderlanders are going after the Black Tower.<br /><br />For what they told Elayne to be true, they would have had to decide that Rand was the Dragon Reborn first.  But we saw in Ethenielle's POV in TPOD that that was not the case.  It was irrelevant to their decision.<br /><br />Plus, no general would weaken his forces by taking 200,000 men away from the expected front lines.  A messenger would have sufficed.<br /><br />So they lied to get an army into Andor.  The only viable target in Andor is the Black Tower.<br /><br />Anyway, just my thoughts.<br />mahiro


created: 2002-02-08 21:21:36
subject: <b>What is the purpose of the 4 armies?</b>
body:
What I keep wondering is this:  are the armies united or divided?<br />         To me, it stands to reason that the armies are united- if the armies were not united, would we not have heard reports of the armies trying to attack each other?<br /> <br />        Gawyn's army of Younglings seems rather insignificat to me.  I am not even sure I would count his Younglings as an army. More like a division. 200-300 people just is not a very threatening force.<br />          However, Gawyn is dangerous becomes of who he is, because he has the power to rally other forces.  If Gawyn really did leave Tar Valon, I would imagine he would have rallied various Cairhien and Eastern Andor houses.  <br />        From what I reread of LoC, Elaida wanted any excuse she could have to get rid of Gawyn cause Gawyn was very uncontrollable, and did his bidding more than the tower's bidding.  I always thought Gawyn was a fool for returning to the tower, but he did return to the tower.  Now that he there would Elaida really want to get rid of him nad his Youngling army right before a major seige?  This does not seem reasonable, even from Elaida.  I doubt also that Elaida would even want Gawyn to go help Elayne, because Elayne is now in the Aes Sedai rebel camp, and as such directly opposed to Elaida.  So the only option would have been for Gawyn to have left on his own without the permission of the Elaida and the Sitters.  As we have seen from the tight leash that Egwene and her Sitters keep on Gareth Bryne, I really doubt that Elaida would have just let Gawyn walk away with her permission or not.  Elaida is probably in a major scurry rounding up all the necessary men for her army, and I highly doubt that she would just let some 200-300 Warders in training walk out of Tar Valon.  By this reasoning, I do not think Gawyn is among the mystery armies.  <br />    I still think Gawyn will play a big role in the tower conflict.  As we have seen, Egwene is destined to bond Gawyn.  And Gawyn still has to make his choice whether he will die violently or whether he will live a long life or whether he support Egwene or break her neck-  and Egwene, of course, was not sure which action led to which outcome.  So, my personal, opinion is that Gawyn is still Tar Valon.  <br />         .    <br />         There are many possibilites for who these 4 mystery armies are, but the question I keep going back to is if these armies are allied together, or are if they are enemies.<br />        It could be that the armies are a significant distance apart that they wouldn't attack each other, and perhaps they are raising to get to Caemlyn first.  So I think it is still unknown whether the armies are divided or united.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 07:46:11
subject: <b>Borderland Armies</b>
body:
I also assumed that the armies that are marching on Camelyn were from the Borderlands.  Tenobia says in aPoD something like &quot;Rand Al'Thor and my Uncle Davram will learn who rules Saldea&quot;.  It is just too coincidental that four armies are coming south from the Borderlands and four armies are marching on Camelyn.  I believe the reason for so many Borderland troops is that the rulers of the four nations are concerned that Rand will take over their countries the same way he has with Camelyn, Tear, Illian etc.  I think all four rulers talk about how it isn't right what Rand has done in the Southern nations and that why should the Borderland nations put all their attention on defending the blight-border when everything south of them crumbles.<br /><br />I think Rand will be able to smooth everything over, with the help of Davram Bashere and Aglemar Jagad.  He should be able to convince them, that as long as they support his battle against the DO, he has no interest in taking over their lands.  That has always been his MO. <br /><br />If Rand's forces and the Borderland armies come to blows, I think it will be tragic and will hurt the Light's chances at Shayol Guhl.  This doesn't seem likely unless there is some DO influence involved (Chaos???)<br />


created: 2002-02-11 02:32:12
subject: <b>It the Borderlanders</b>
body:
Thats all i wanted to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lurker Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />mother to siamese cats Monty and Cleo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 20:43:57
subject: <b>My $2</b>
body:
For starters, the four armies are NOT the Borderlanders.  As I recall, Elayne had just visited the Borderlander camp and seen their armies -- far enough to the NORTH that she had to Travel to get there.  Unless the AS with the Borderlanders can make gateways themselves, the Borderlanders are still many days north of Caemlyn, and the four &quot;small armies&quot; are coming from the EAST.  Emphasis on the small, whereas at least Tenobia brought 50,000 men and the others probably have decent-sized forces too.  50,000+ is not &quot;small,&quot; even compared to the hundreds of thousands of Aiel Rand's been throwing around.  <br /><br />I suspect that the four armies are not united.  If enough time has elapsed for news of Elayne's claim to reach Tar Valon, then I suspect that one of the four armies IS with Gawyn.  Elaida would not have stopped them.  One, she wants Gawyn and his Younglings gone anyway -- their loyalty is dubious -- and two, unless the AS used the OP on the Younglings, 200 of the best swordsmen the Tower has fighting their way out would be a bloodbath.  I doubt Elaida would go to the trouble.  So if the news has reached TV, then Gawyn's one of the four.  A boat down the river and a few day's mustering (quite possibly among the Queen's Guards) would explain how he got to where he is, in this case.<br /><br />As for the other three -- quite probably the rebelling lords, come to challenge Elayne, account for one or two.  The fourth could be anything from Shaido to Dragonsworn.  As to why we haven't heard reports of fighting, if the four armies are not united -- recall that the only mention we have of the four armies is in the very last scene with Elayne in WH!  The first report is also the last report!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 12:33:02
subject: <b>Simpest Approach</b>
body:
I think the simplest answer is that the four armies are the 4 most powerful rebelling nobles:  Luan, Pelivar, Ellorien, and Abelle.  Each are powerful enough to have their own army.  They even stated in LoC, in Tellings of the Wheel that they would not be hestitant to attack Caemlyn.  And none of these 4 agreed with Rand's choice of Elayne.  I think these armies are the most likely suspects.  They also fit in with Elayne's whole scheme to use the Borderlanders armies to unite Andor.<br />    The fifth major noble in Andor is Dyelin, and she is apparently siding with Elayne for the moment.  <br />     As for Gawyn, I still think his role is in the white tower.  In addition to evidence I have previously posted, recall from LoC when Egwene was pulled into Gawyn's dream when she got to close.  The Wise Ones said this was very rare and signified a great love that left little room for anything else.  <br />       To me, this raises an interesting conflict inside of Gawyn-  Where does his duty and path lie?<br />       1.  With the woman who has completely captured his heart.  Or<br />       2.  With his sister, whom he has vowed to protect since he was an infant?<br /><br />     It could be possible that Gawyn did leave Tar Valon, and your reasoning that Elaida would have let him leave because she didn't want bloodshed is pretty sound.  I imagine if Gawyn raised his sword, he could raise another rebellion in the tower threatening Elaida.  She is a control freak, but she wouldn't want to risk that. <br />      However, Gawyn leaving the white tower is an idea completely in theory right now, whereas the 4 rebel Andor nobles is completely practical. <br />         Gawyn COULD appear racing into Andor, and maybe he did leave Tar Valon so that he would not have to confront Egwene.  But when will he get back with Egwene and fufill her dreamings?  The Tower conflict seems as good of a time as any.  It is possible that Gawyn will help Elayne save Andor and then return to Tar Valon later, but this is also speculative.  My impression from the Egwene's dreaming was that Gawyn would somehow be involved in the tower conflict.  This is just my interpretation, but it seems likely.  Read my book 10 theory for more info.<br />      But as for now, I think it is much more likely that the 4 armies are Ellorien, Luan, Pelivar, and Abelle.  We can't rule Gawyn out, but we can't rule him in either.  He is just speculation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 14:30:49
subject: <b>HEY!`</b>
body:
wait a minute, Gawyn is pissed off at the white tower and especially elaida remember? <br />the Red Ajah Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells were planning on getting rid of Gawyn and his younglings werent they?&gt; thats what he says in the intro to ACOS or at the end of LOC. One has to be Gawyns army, because he never went back to the White Tower, but there could also be shaido and seanchan armies. how about Whitecloaks? maybe an alliance between Gawyn and Galad? personally I always thought it was the borderlanders but I dont know why they would leave the blight unguarded just before TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Slayer of Idiots<br />Drinker of 40s<br />Guardian of the Light<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 01:09:07
subject: <b>Actually, Gawyn did return to the White Tower.</b>
body:
.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 15:46:22
subject: <b>Galad and the Whitecloaks</b>
body:
They just got smashed by the Seanchan, but whatever Whitecloaks are still in the field could be rallied.  It also seems likely that the Children would be hip on getting a piece of Andor, especially with the situation there as it is.  Also, there is the potential for a conflict between Galad and Gawyn, which I have always kind of expected to see.  So 4 armies; Gawyn, Galad and Whitecloaks, and perhaps various noble houses.


created: 2002-02-22 03:40:49
subject: <b>I know it's been said, but&#8230;</b>
body:
Gawyn did return to the Tower and he is still loyal to it, (as far as we know) even though he doesn't like what's happening. Remember in Cairhien when he won't betray the sisters for Egwene?<br /><br />I think Egwene's dreams indicate that Gawyn will support the Tower against Egwene's rebel forces. What he does when he finds out that Egwene is the rebel Amyrlin will be the choice Egwene sees him make in her dreams. I think it's just too rich a plot point for RJ to pass up.


created: 2002-04-26 17:44:48
subject: <b>If it's not simple....</b>
body:
I agree that in all likelyhood, Elayne is correct in her guess. But with the sheer number of troops coming it <br />seems farfetched that any one coalition could have raised them so soon after Elayne's return. I would say one<br />or two armies belong to them. As for the other two...<br /><br />Gawyn has the reputation and charisma to raise an army in Andor, and maybe even in Tar Valon. You'll remember <br />that Elaida is increasing the Tower Guards, and it is very likely that the Younglings, with their reputation,<br />would be able to swing some of these recruits behind them to form an army, gaining men along the way the way a <br />snowball gathers snow. One problem with this...<br /><br />It would take something extraordinary to draw Gawyn away from Tar Valon with an army. Hearing of Elayne would<br />draw him away, but the Aes Sedai would hardly permit him to just take troops. To leave an endangered Tar Valon<br />behind, Gawyn would need a break in trust, because he is not a traitor. Of course, considering her preoccupation<br />with the royal family of Andor, Elaida might SEND Gawyn to support Elayne, or more likely to bring her back. Still,<br />This necessitates her being willing to send troops away when the Little Tower is coming. Of course, Elaida knows<br />nothing about Traveling.<br /><br />Finally, I think it's high time Galad showed up, in Command of the Whitecloak army. When/if he arrives, it will be<br />interesting to see what he sees as the &quot;right&quot; thing to do to his sister, who is also Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 00:15:19
subject: <b>Proof theory is wrong</b>
body:
In the prologue to CoT, you go to Gawyn's PoV, and he's near Tar Valon with 300 Younglings, under the orders of Katerine Alureddin and one other Aes Sedai.


created: 2004-06-07 05:22:19
subject: <b>The 4th army</b>
body:
I think that lord Riating has formed the 4th army, it is not let by himself; in WH he is in Far Madding, but by someone else. I'll have to read it again to find out who he trusts.<br />The reason why he is going is obvious: Cairhien and Andor have been at ware for a long time untill the Aiel-war 20 years agoo.<br />Perhaps he's trying to overcome Andor now it is most weak.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak<br />what would people do when they find that it's true<br />I don't really care if they label me a Jesus freak<br />there is no disguising the truth.<br /><br />Aloysius Protection Squadrand&#8482;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 08:50:49
subject: <b>Caemlyn sucks</b>
body:
end of story. i could care less about elayne. and majoritally aviendha. lets throw in perrin for good measure<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 16:46:53
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
Verin Did lie she is a Darkfriend and the Last book Will prove it (if we will ever live to see it).<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> SURAVYE NINTO MANSHIMA TAISH'ITE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> MNDE MUAGHDE AES SEDAI MISAIN YE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> May you find good hunting, and shes to bring you many cubs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Zedrick Al'Stone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 20:36:18
subject: <b>How on earth could Verin be a darkfriend?</b>
body:
Remember her POV in Winter's Heart?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 22:33:56
subject: <b>Heheh</b>
body:
Yeah... I agree that she isn't a darkfriend, but i do think that she is so loyal to Rand that she might go to extremes to protect him...hence, almost poisoning Cadsuane. But I don't think she was lying, cutting it close, probably, but there is always a think line between lying and distorting the truth. Good thought process on discerning that fine line. All around, good job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 22:36:59
subject: <b>Yeah right?</b>
body:
That would be the point of view where she is about to poison Cadsaune because she wasn't sure about her. But Cadsaune starts confiding in her and Verin becomes sure, decides not to kill her.<br /><br />Jordan is portraying Verin as one of the most intuitive, intelligent and conniving characters there, just one who appears mild mannered. It could be that Verin was not sure about whether she had conned Cadsaune into trusting her, and was about to kill Cadsaune when Cadsaune confides in Verin. This would indicate to Verin that she had succeeded and thus didn't need to kill Cad. That passage was left delibrately ambiguous - not conclusive proof that she was or wasn't a darkfriend. But absolutely proof that she is willing to kill someone who appears to be helping Rand and who she knows has convinced the Aiel wise ones.


created: 2002-02-08 23:08:31
subject: <b>very similiar to Mat's ordeal with Joline</b>
body:
In WH, Joline bends truth in such away that Mat thinks it is a lie.  It is all semantics- we really can't prove what is going on by the basis of words, because Aes Sedai can bend truth to such an extreme extent.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 02:06:44
subject: <b>Wait a second....</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Couldn't the answer be even simpler....Truth is what you percieve it to be....When Verin said Moiraine sent her, maybe what had happened was Moiraine SUGGESTED she go and she took her up on it....Then Moiraione can easily say she didn't SEND Verrin, she did it on her own.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Anendosora, the Typo Queen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-09 13:08:37
subject: <b>Yeah but...</b>
body:
If it is that simple, why did she frown? If it was that easy sorted out, she wouldn't have frowned. Moiraine has obviously heard something that surprised her, the POSSIBILITY of Verin lying and she frowned while trying to think about Verin's action and possible lie. The frown is a major point against the cooperative theory.


created: 2002-02-09 14:43:54
subject: <b>The Frown</b>
body:
Of course the frown could be completely unrelated. Maybe she was thinking about how she forgot a pen in her room and needed to go get it or something. Could just be put in by RJ to make us think about her words.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> The All-Seeing, All-Powerful, Dread Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 17:14:57
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
Could be. Or she could be wondering what Verin did to make Rand think she was interfering. Didn't she and the girls bugger off with Mat and Hurin very shortly after the battle? Moiraine never had a chance to ask her what was going on.<br /><br />Or I could be wrong and Verin is dark. Personally, after everything that happened through all 9 books so far with her, this is the only indication that is very difficult to explain away. But Jordan's writing style has become more simplistic in the latter books, and he appears to have dropped the vague inisinuations for almost blatent pointing out with big flashing neon lights and arrows. Maybe the whole who killed Asmodean thing made him realize his readers don't get obscure easily. I know Terry Pratchett has said that about his Yank readers quite often.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 17:27:00
subject: <b>Verin Lied</b>
body:
What about in  Winter's Heart when she lied about her name in Far Madding?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 02:44:06
subject: <b>that wasn't a lie</b>
body:
verin said:<br /><br />&quot;All of you may call me Eadwina.&quot; (WH, p477/TorHB)<br /><br />that's not the same as &quot;my name is...&quot;<br /><br />moiraine did the same thing in the earlier books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 02:45:41
subject: <b>Far Madding</b>
body:
She didn't lie about her name in Far Madding. She said 'You may all call me Eadwina' she didn't say 'My name is Eadwina'. It's not a lie. And I am SO GLAD SOMEONE CAME UP WITH THIS THEORY! *lol* I firmly believe that Verin is not a Darkfriend. Merely the epitome of an Aes Sedai- that's all.<br /><br />I write to Verin in my journal. Does that make me insane, or odd? And since I write to her in my journal, and she gives me advise, I really don't want her to be bad. She'd like the grandmother I never had. She'd my favorite character in the whole book, and if she turns out to be bad I won't be very satisfied. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 04:58:41
subject: <b>For what its worth. . .</b>
body:
In WH's there was the whole scene involving Verin interrogating the prisoners.  As I recall, she was using a rudimentary form of compulsion.  Her use of this weave spoke to me of 2 things.<br /><br />1st)  She was nervous about using it.  Not from being caught but more of how it would be interpreted by others.  It wasn't true compulsion but skirted the very edge of &quot;acceptable&quot; (read permissable) use of the One Power.  The fact she still used it told me of her single minded desire to protect Rand and to learn all she could of those who &quot;betrayed&quot; him.<br />2nd) Which brings up this question in my mind, Would a Dark Friend be hesitant about using compulsion based on ethical reasons as Verin debated within her own thoughts?  I think not.  However its nearly conclusive, a Dark Friend would be hesitant in using any visible weave like complusion so near others who could channel.<br />I do not believe Verin is a Dark Friend.  However, verifiable proof I can't provide.  I believe this because she argues agains necessity and expediency regarding the compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Adieu-<br />           Nakx<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 08:41:56
subject: <b>I think Verin can lie, but is she a darker Ajah than Brown?</b>
body:
I think that Verin is the most interesting character Jordan has developed thus far.  Even though she isn't a main character, the way he has written about her, hinting at so much, but not giving much solid information, is really the epitome of Aes Sedia, as someone has said above.<br /><br />I have been doing a good deal of research on Verin, like I said I love her character, and I hope to be able to present a theory of my own later, but I couldn't pass up this opportunity to get involved in a discussion about her.  I think that Verin can lie, but she is not of the Black Ajah.  The only hard fact I have that she can lie is, &#8220;Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,&#8221;.  Moiraine then says later, &#8220;I did not send Verin.  She did that on her own.&#8221;  We know pretty much for sure (I don't say 100% because you can't believe anything that isn't straight up fact.  I also like Belwar too!) that Moiraine can't lie so for the sake of this argument, I will take that stance that she can't.  That being said, Moiraine specifically states that she DID NOT SEND Verin.  Verin specifically states that MOIRAINE SEDIA SENT ME.  Even though Verin and Moiraine can skirt the truth better than any other AS, it doesn't matter if Verin was talking to Ingtar or Rand or the DO, she said that Moiraine sent her and Moiraine said she didn't.  I can't help but believe that this is a lie.<br /><br />I don't think that Verin is super loyal to Rand, but rather super loyal to him defeating the Dark One.  She thinks in aPoD that &quot;somehow I have to keep Rand Al'Thor alive until it was time for him to die&quot;.  But this could also mean that she is BA and has to keep him alive until he causes enough chaos for the DO.  My personal opinion is that she isn't BA, but that comes from my heart not wanting my favorite character to be a darkfriend.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-02-10 16:48:49
subject: <b>Moiraine and Verin were working together in Siuan's back...</b>
body:
... but Moiraine didn't send Verin after the party, that Verin did on her own.  The &quot;lie&quot; is not really important - there are a dozen ways Verin could have twisted Moiraine's words - it's a classic AS trick. I think Moiraine asked Verin to go to the Tower and remain available because she thought Rand could need her help while herself was away and she wanted Siuan to pick Verin instead of another sister she won't have her say about. There is a world between Moiraine letting Rand think he was on his own and Moiraine really being unreachable for long. Someone had to be on &quot;stand-by&quot; in her absence and know where she was, and I think the only &quot;ally&quot; available for that was Verin. <br /><br />We know that Moiraine had to seek knowledge, what she will ask of the Vandenes but also how and where to learn Balefire, very obviously because she expected to face the Forsaken soon. I think the most logical person she could ask about this was Verin - not only a Brown but also a &quot;conspirator&quot; she had to trust with her secrets anyway. For obvious reasons, they didn't have the Balefire conversation in front of the Amyrlin and Moiraine did not share with Siuan her knowledge about the Forsaken at the EotW either. It would have been hard to convince Siuan Sanche to let Rand go on his own had she tell her about that...   <br /><br />But I think she told Verin about Ba'alzamon in the boys' dreams / the forsaken at the EotW.. Verin told her about the Vandenes (it's more logical for Verin to know the whereabouts of a long retired Brown and her field of research than for Moiraine to be the rare one to know about that. Also, who better than a brownish &quot;Battle Ajah&quot; sister to know about the forbidden Balefire?). Moiraine asked Verin to go at the Tower while she was away, in case Rand asked for AS help like she hoped.<br /><br />It's kind of obvious why neither told Siuan that they were leaving, and for where.<br /><br />As for what motivated Verin to follow Rand instead, I think it has to do with Moiraine's revelations and the Dark Prophecy, combined with her personal opinion that Moiraine was wrong to leave Rand alone. I think she also suspected that the events would go much faster for Rand than Moiraine thought. We know how stubborn Moiraine can be, so the best way for Verin to have her way was to do it in her back and explain herself later - which no doubt she had to do when reunited with Moiraine on Toman Head.  I think Verin figured out a lot more from the Dark Prophecy than she let know (notably she could have figured out that one Forsaken left it as a bait for Rand to come proclaim himself on Toman Head according to prophecy, IMHO). One thing is certain, Verin was 100% convinced that Rand had to go to Toman Head and she also made sure once there that the conditions required by the prophecy would be met(&quot;five will ride forth&quot;, etc.).<br /><br />I think she had similar motives to give the ter'angreal to Egwene. From Corianin Nedeal's notes, she probably knew what the stolen ter'angreal were for. Since these notes were totally secret, it was rather easy to conclude that a Forsaken was directing the Black Ajah and has told them what to look for and how to use them. She gave some clues to Egwene, (pointing out that the ter'angreal were last studied by CN, showing her the Ba'alzamon/Ishamael manuscript)but I think she feared that Egwene would be too terrorized to go on if she knew the plain truth. But it had to be done and &quot;what will happen will happen&quot;. I also suspect that Corianin Nedeal's notes contain a reference to a &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; being sometime active in TAR and that is what interested Verin is studying so much the other manuscript in the first place. I'm sure this manuscript was important to her current preoccupations, she got back to it as soon as Egwene was gone.<br />


created: 2002-02-10 17:04:59
subject: <b>I stand corrected....</b>
body:
Okay, so she didn't lie about her name in Far Madding.<br />I agree, though, that she isn't Black Ajah.<br />But maybe someone can answer me this question: Why was she in trouble in Far Madding in the first place? I simply haven't been able to figure that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 17:54:59
subject: <b>The words that sent Verin</b>
body:
When Moiraine and Suian came sorta clean with Verin and Verin added that to what she knew of the dragon prophesies she felt she had to follow Rand. For study of a real life dragon and the Taveren or however you spell it. Although Moiraine didn't come right out and say &quot;go there&quot; it was her information about Rand that made Verin go. So in a round about way Moiraine did send her. &quot;Moiraine sent me&quot;.....&quot;Moiraine's words sent me&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lurker Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />mother to siamese cats Monty and Cleo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 21:17:31
subject: <b>verin</b>
body:
verin says moraine sent her, that doesn't mean she sent<br />her to them she could have sent her anywhere.omission of where she was sent is not lying.as for moraine saying he might need her maybe she did, it could have been just a passing thought.


created: 2002-02-11 04:40:56
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
would NEVER tell Verin so much.<br /><br />Don't overlook the possibility that Verin has been freed from at least one of the oaths on the oath rod, not because she's BA (because she isn't), but for other reasons.


created: 2002-02-11 09:47:47
subject: <b>I think Verin freed herself....</b>
body:
from the oath rod.  She is brown and would have access to it for study whenever she needed it.  It would have been quite easy for here to remove an oath or 3.


created: 2002-02-11 10:00:38
subject: <b>oh for god's sake....</b>
body:
Moraine sent me... { a lovely fruit basket }...   Moraine sent me... { out for pizza last week}...   Moraine sent me... { to the moon when we were novice pillowfriends}.....  c'mon people it's not that difficult<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 21:17:27
subject: <b>couple o' points</b>
body:
1.  'Being wrong' or believing something that isn't so is distinctly different from lying.  A person could say something that isn't true, but firmly believe it is, and not lie.<br /><br />2.  Verin obviously has some oddness in her background. I'm sure RJ is enjoying giving us more and more sips of what she's about -- or not about.  She is absolutely playing her own game, no doubt about that. (but not a DF!)<br /><br />3.  For some reason, I cannot shake the unexplained occasional focus on Shara and lying.  Call it a hunch.  Verin has plenty of little surprises about her (just like Cadsuane), and as someone mentioned, being a Brown she has access to a lot more info than others. <br /><br />From the moment in TGH when Suian and Moiraine channeled in her presence as if a response to a threat, she has constantly evolved, showing a more complex edge.  I think that she is the counter-part to Cadsuane.  She's more powerful than we were first shown (this was a little clumsy on RJ's part, I think).  There is almost always discussion about an AS's strength when they're introduced -- certainly for main ones.  Nothing was said of Verin, despite the fact that she's quite strong.  It could be excused that she's old enough to have her relative length of training be unknown to many, but still, capacity for power is another thing, and obvious.<br /><br />Given Egwene's and Elayne's debates about the continued use of the Oath Rod, I sincerely DO hope that RJ somewhere along the line has the Aes Sedai understand that the reason they aren't trusted is the precise reason that they think they should be.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-12 16:56:48
subject: <b>I hope for that too...</b>
body:
and I'm pretty sure it will happen.  That's probably one of the main reasons behind the whole &quot;the oath rod is in the Tower&quot; subplot, and I think the realization that the AS's oath to tell the truth is precisely what makes people mistrust every word they say is going to come from Siuan Sanche. I think RJ has long ago started to prepare the ground for this development by having her caught in a situation where she must face justice and swear an oath to Gareth Bryne, then have her Healed by Nynaeve without retaking the three oaths and become the grey eminence behind Egwene as an unbound Amyrlin surrounded by quite a few unbound almost-sisters.<br /><br />The parralel between Siuan's misadventures in Andor and the use of the rod for criminals in the AOL as described by Sammael in LoC is just too obvious, IMO. Now, just imagine her reaction if/when she learns about that - if for instance one of the Forsaken makes a slip and insults them as &quot;so called AS binding themselves like common criminals&quot;. That should be enough of a wake-up call for Siuan, given her own experience, to change her vision that lying is is very convenient to a much more global and moral opinion about the AS oaths.  It could be Egwene who come with the idea of forsaking the practice, but I think Siuan will be involved too.<br /><br />I'm not sure about a Shara/Verin connection, but there is that bizarre comment she made once about a portal stone in the Aiel Waste.  I guess it's not impossible that she travelled to Shara long ago, when the Cairhienin merchants were still allowed to cross the Waste.


created: 2002-02-12 20:47:22
subject: <b>Oath Rod stuff</b>
body:
Given the general distaste for the Oath Rod, I will actually state that, in the concept of it's use, it was likely a good thing. After all, the Breaking of the World was just that -- a devastation.  And it was wrought by channelers.  And the Dark One and his minions are channelers (of varying degrees, of course).  Chaos and incomprehensible death tolls followed the wars.<br /><br />Somehow, people needed a reason to trust Aes Sedai.  The Oath Rod gave that.  No matter what else (save for being a Black Ajah), people could trust that the Aes Sedai would NOT use their power against innocents, could NOT tell a lie.  People had to be on their guard against deception, but heck, any merchant could tell them that. <br /><br />It must've taken at least a few AS generations to perfect the spirit of dishonesty while following the letter of honesty. <br /><br />Now the best thing the Oath Rod could be used for would be to whack Elaida upside the head.


created: 2002-03-06 15:18:46
subject:
<b>B R A V O !   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I never really thought of Verin as Black Ajah, and everyone kept saying that she lied. i was getting frustrated. I think that what you wrote is pretty much what happened and i think that RJ put it there to sow confusion that he knew would sprout at some point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="174565">Yeah, it'll be more like the best MadTV sketch ever made ever. The one that you watch a go &quot;Um, that sketch was way too funny to be on MadTV.&quot;</font></b></font> ~ <i>Sore Thumbs</i><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><p><a href="http://www.wotmania.com/writersmessageboardshowmes" target="_blank">Stossville Zombie Incident: Episode One</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 11:05:17
subject: <b>A Simpler Explanation</b>
body:
I read all this discussion, and I think that they were both telling the truth, and that we are overlooking the obvious:  a third party, one who is trusted, delivering a message to Verin, purportedly from Moiraine.<br /><br />Example:<br /><br />Ingtar said, &quot;Moiraine Sedai asked me to deliver this to you.&quot;  Verin tore open the note, sealed with the Great Serpent.  Inside, her old student begged her to follow the al'Thor boy, as she herself was unable to be present.  Verin thoughtfully tapped the letter with a finger.  To be close to the Dragon Reborn as he came into his heritage - just think of the knowledge!<br /><br />Or some such nonsense.  Remember, an Aes Sedai speaks what she believes is true.  Verin must have had communicated to her in a way that left no doubts that Moiraine wanted her to go.<br /><br />The whole &quot;sent me (for a pizza, for a ride, etc.) just seems like it's too close to a lie.  Even if you cut off words mid-sentence, it's still part of a lie. I have trouble believing that the attempt wouldn't cause the effects we saw in WH.<br /><br />


created: 2005-04-22 00:33:04
subject: <b>Perhaps it's Half a Sentance</b>
body:
When Verin said &quot; Moiraine sent me&quot; perhaps Moiraine &quot;sent&quot; Verin - by sending her to Toman Head/Falme- not necessarily in words- but in thought to &quot;shepard&quot; over Rand.  Verin &quot;lied&quot; in omission about Moiraine sending her.  Moiraine could have even said &quot;Someone should go look after al'Thor.&quot;  That would leave it open as to who would go, and not a command.<br /><br />It comes down to what did Moiraine really say and did Verin actually &quot;lie&quot; by not telling the whole truth?


created: 2006-12-12 12:02:53
subject: <b>An Alternative</b>
body:
funny, how longer the diskusion goes if Verin lied or not, how more theories are on the run. Yours is a rather fine one!<br /><br />But im a bit courious about all that stuff.  Most theories take too much aasumptions in my opinion. Aes Sedai make telling the half truth or uater truth as an art- so why not in this case ? for any Aes Seai, the dragon reborn must be an improtant matte. when siuan and moraine told verin who rand is, she must be interested in him. when she followed them<br />moraine really sent her in a way- by telling her who rand was.<br />


created: 2009-08-01 14:39:08
subject: <b>Moiraine?</b>
body:
What if it was Mesaana disguised as Moiraine who sent Verin?  Verin could easily have been played into believing that Moiraine sent her when if fact she did not.<br /><br />However, what I think actually happened was that Moiraine tried to subtly convince Verin to join Rand, but did so in a way that only a very very smart person would have picked up on.  She did this to test whether Verin was really hiding behind a facade of ignorance.  Once she realised Verin had seen Rand, she knew that Verin was potentially a danger to Rand (the more people who knew about the Dragon Reborn, the worse, especially people who are smart and have unknown intentions).<br /><br />In this case, its quite plausible that while Moiraine didn't literally send Verin, Verin felt like she was being sent.  Another possibility here is that Suian sent Verin, but Verin assumed the orders came from Moiraine (who she sees as the brains in that operation).


created: 2002-02-10 23:39:21
subject: <b>*enters Theory Post Cave*</b>
body:
Ooh...it's dark in here...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 17:53:49
subject: <b>Not just a darkfriend!!! Branandred!!!!</b>
body:
If Bran can channel, there is no other possibility. Bran is Demandred!! The mystery is solved!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If Daphne from Scooby-Doo weren't a cartoon, I'd show her what doggy style's all about!!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 22:25:33
subject: <b>That's IT!</b>
body:
The honey cakes are demandred, they must be! just like how the DO is a stale bran muffin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 06:31:43
subject: <b>Hell NO!!!</b>
body:
Bran is not a dark friend he is a wolf brother in book 10 he will show up kill and kill Rina Sedai(Elayes's Bond holder)<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />may you find good hunting and shes to give you many cubs<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 21:05:54
subject: <b>Oh no!</b>
body:
This leaves only one possibility Abell Cauthon is Cain reborn!<br /><br />No! This means there is only one last conclusion! Tam Al'Thor is really Brigitte.<br /><br />Think about it! They are both very good with the bow. They both downplay what they can do. They even both wear revealing skirts!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2004-06-22 21:53:01
subject: <b>*Grins*</b>
body:
I like much! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Rob's wife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think geeks are sexy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> So I went and got my own! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Te quiero mi hermano!<br /><br /><font color="#0099CC">Caboose: Tell him about how his dad got to third base with you!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 06:12:09
subject: <b>*laughs*</b>
body:
have to agree, except the Creator using TP, he'd really be using the LFP ie: Light Friends Power <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />*wonders if Mike still believes in Light Friends*<br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 09:43:38
subject: <b>Very Funny</b>
body:
Very funny theory too bad mat died I wanted to meet the guy.And Robert Jordan doing a Stephen King on his and entering his own books is just like him. Too bad the DO died. I'd rather see all 3 of them have a drink, and ask each other if any thing happened the next morning, while the Crator is wondering why he/she's so sore.


created: 2002-02-11 15:13:44
subject: <b>Tsk tsk tsk</b>
body:
Berelain would <i>never</i> marry a man who wore white after Labor Day.  The opposite, I'd bet.  Faile dresses him in white linen and haraches for weeks after Labor Day to dissuade Berelain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think I smell a theory coming on...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 18:16:41
subject: <b>Perrin isn't a wussy...</b>
body:
No way. Just 'cause he's faithful to his wife and his friends, and doesn't want to kill people with that bloody great axe of his doesn't mean he's a wussy. <br /><br />As for all that...*hee hee* Min's Octuplets? He'll be the father of sixteen children in less than a year. *whew* No need to worry that he won't leave a legacy...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 09:57:56
subject: <b>Not to mention</b>
body:
He'll be leaving three very sore women as well.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-14 09:02:23
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
That is so how it will go except that Narg will end up falling in love with Bela and sacrificing himself for her!!!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 12:14:05
subject: <b>See the light</b>
body:
People of the world, do you NOW understand why population explosin is bad? Mat's dead!!<br />(Runs away bawling)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-17 21:56:38
subject: <b>wwwoooowwww</b>
body:
wow why did i not see it before,man such a blaring truth. i mean really i must have been blind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Truth Vengence Honor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 12:47:55
subject: <b>shyeah riight...</b>
body:
...*blink*.... *blink*....<br /><br />is this fiction? i'm ready to believe anything at this point... what happens to the aiel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-19 06:46:28
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Nargs dead guys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold<br />Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world<br />Surely the Second Coming is at hand</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-19 17:22:03
subject: <b>You killed Narg!!!</b>
body:
Bad Rand....<br />who gave him the right to kill Narg?<br />better if the DO wins. he would have let Narg live!!<br /><br />(I'm not a Darkfriend. really)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 11:15:52
subject: <b>I agree and as you said....</b>
body:
..it is pretty self evident.  Recall the Aes Sedai conversations about how the relentless hunting down of male channelers could be to blame for the diminishing number of new novices....&quot;culling&quot; the ability as it were.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 11:32:48
subject: <b>Rand isn't from the Two Rivers</b>
body:
Rand's not from the Two Rivers so he wouldn't have gotten his strength from the isolated gene pool that Nynaeve and Egwene did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Badass Amyrlin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 12:48:56
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
Rand recieved his powers because HE IS the Dragon Reborn, and not being from the two rivers or being an aielman has nothing to do with that aspect.  <br /><br />Since RJ talks about the theory (through many Aes Sedai) about strength in the power diminishing due to the male half being killed off everywhere, I do think that this theory holds water.<br /><br />One of the Chosen talked about these people that only let men who can channel live to 21 and only breed with other channelers (book 4?).  Now RJ mentions them again in WH, so I believe that they will be included in the next book of the series and I am interested in seeing if they will be very strong in the power.  <br /><br />But... it is not bad genetics, but good genetics.  If you have something that is higher up on the evolutionary ladder mate with something else that is up there too, then you get a product that is stronger than either of the parents.  A la Alien 4 where Ripley helps spawn a new breed of Alien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 17:27:51
subject: <b>Male Channelers in the Two Rivers</b>
body:
My question is if the Two Rivers has such a high percentage of female channelers, what about the men?  I think that was the &quot;thorny bush&quot; that Taim referred to, but why havn't men been going insane in the Rivers for the past 1000 years?<br /><br />A woman who is born to touch the source could live a quiet (if exceptionally lucky) life, like Nynaeve.  A man born to touch the source would die in a rather messy manner.  Why havn't we heard of this more often?


created: 2002-02-12 17:47:07
subject: <b>Hey my cat is from the Two Rivers!</b>
body:
here is a pic of him: http://www.vigenconstruction.com/cbv/manhands.jpg<br /><br />I am going to go try to form the flame in the void now...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 18:23:01
subject: <b>Cool beans...</b>
body:
This might be the same thing as having it be genetic, but I always thought that whether or not anyone in your family could channel, you would still have a chance that you would have the ability. Having a blood relative that coudl channel just raised the odds by a bit. I could be wrong.<br /><br />As for six-toed cats...my sister has one! *lol*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 18:26:41
subject: <b>Since the Two Rivers is geographically isolated............</b>
body:
In Biology we've been studying the Theory of Evolution and this fits in well. Two River folk are notorious for being stubborn, maybe the ability to channel causes this. In artificial selection certain adaptions sooner or later come to dominate when people without those adaptions. Another reason could be that no one ever leaves the place so people who normally would become aes sedai don't and they get married. You have to look at the male side as well, aes sedai don't come to the two rivers to hunt down male channelers though there are probably tons with the ability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 18:32:50
subject: <b>rand</b>
body:
i agree with the inter-breeding thought but rand has no blood connection to the two-rivers.  He was a child of an aiel man.  The reason Rand is the strongest man is due to the fact that he is the dragon...


created: 2002-02-12 19:23:08
subject: <b>FFS!</b>
body:
It says in the guide that chanelling is recessive genetic! there's no debate!<br /><br />And Rand, Mat and Perin haven't been ta'veren all their lives. Obviously. If they had been that would have meant that three of the most poweful ta'veren ever would have been in one village for almost 2 decades...the amoutn of ridiculous events that would have occured would have been mentioned. After all, look what happened when the three ta'veren turned up in Tear at the same time.


created: 2002-02-12 22:43:49
subject: <b>Hmm...nice build-up, Three</b>
body:
It's one of those 'dumb-guy' things that as soon as I heard of it, it was blatantly obvious, but I'd never thought of it before....<br /><br />The three ta'veren have not been together since Tear, have they?  And that was pretty darn wild.  Forsaken fighting Rand, Forsaken fighting each other, Forsaken protecting Rand (!), the legendary Stone falling, the revelation of the Aiel, the fulfilling of a prophecy and the winning of Callandor. <br /><br />Pretty boring stuff!<br /><br />Plus, the time before that saw the sounding of the Horn of Valere (apparently not for the first time, but no other time speaks of it), the revealing of the Dragon Reborn, and the slaying of Ishamael (Naeblis).  Not to mention perhaps the first ever Return to the Light by a damned person (Ingtar).  But that's purely speculation. <br /><br />Heh...what's gonna happen the next time?  I'm guessing it'll be the Battle of (and for) Tar Valon, with Masema's madness thrown in, plus some White Cloaks as well, and of course, Forsaken zipping about like flies.


created: 2002-02-13 02:03:18
subject: <b>Rand isn't from Two Rivers</b>
body:
I agree with your theory except that Rand was born on Dragonmount; therefore his parents were not in the Two Rivers genepool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 02:36:49
subject: <b>Is there any mention of where Kari was from?</b>
body:
I know Rand himself is not Two Rivers born, but where did Tam pick up Kari? She died young, and I don't recall an explanation, could she have been a wilder too? One of the unfortunate majority that die before they know they can channel? Are there any other referenced to other women in the two rivers dying for no reason? This information would only be backup for this theory. Though I kinda understand that Tam is of the Two Rivers, and he picked up Kari in his wanderings.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 05:15:46
subject: <b>Spoiler if you haven't read very far.</b>
body:
Windsor, I'm afraid Kari isn't his mother either. Rand's biological father was Janduin, an Aiel clan chief. His mother was... someone else - I don't think I should tell you exactly who if you don't know. Tam found Rand lying on the Dragonmount, and Kari was his wife whom he picked up while adventuring outside the Two Rivers. When Tam returned people saw an outlander wife and a baby boy, and assumed the obvious.<br /><br />Great theory BTW Xoe. Definite thumbs up to that one. Despite what Burr said, I don't think the alternative makes sense. Could 3 ta'veren in one little village make every single cat embryo in their part of the country grow an extra toe? Wouldn't the adults have noticed if cats sudddenly started having six toes instead of five since about twenty years ago? If that had happened, you can bet Cenn Buie and the Coplins/Congars would be raving about the &quot;work of the Dragon&quot; or something (and being ironically right). Especially seeing as there's a strong argument that they weren't ta'veren all their lives, seeing as nothing really odd happened in Emond's Field compared to what Rand did in the villages on the way to Tear. And in reply to whoever said about men dying in nasty ways, how do we know they didn't? Remember how rare the spark is. One or two in the collective memory (which, face it, isn't going to be that long in a backward place like that) might have gone a bit mad before dying; so what? Perhaps they never survived to rot, throwing themselves of cliffs or something in their madness.<br /><br />Also, I believe someone in WoTworld is missing something when they talk about the Red Ajah culling the ability to channel out of mankind. I mean, how many people do they gentle? Five a year? Some of whom must already have children before they die. Surely the issue is about Aes Sedai being so haughty and not having children themselves. Obvious as this seems, to someone in WoTworld that is, only Verin seems to have noticed this (tGH). When she mentioned it in the Tower, more than a few feathers were severely ruffled. Aiel wise ones get married and have children, and they've got plenty of dreamwalkers, whereas the Tower haven't had a Dreamer in 500 years until Egwene. This must also mean that Talents are genetic too.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 10:50:03
subject: <b>I disagree...</b>
body:
... because if Rand's village people were full of &quot;channeling genes&quot; then there would have been traces of a lot of men able to channel in the Two Rivers since three thousand years.<br />I think that the ability to channel is random, and that the presence of three Ta'veren changes the odds.<br />By the way, who said that genetics exists in Randland? In the books, the soul predominates on the body.


created: 2002-02-13 11:29:31
subject: <b>I thought this was obvious, actually...</b>
body:
There -is- a 'channeling' gene, and it appears to be recessive. Cool. Next point...<br /><br />... far as everyone is going on about Rand not being born in the Two Rivers... uh... so what? The Aiel, like the Sea Folk, have strong numbers in terms of channelers as well. <br /><br />In terms of the men not channeling so much, it could be (somewhat) explained away by the fact that there are two types of channelers. The people who will do so no matter what (wilder-types), and the people who can learn. There's probably a truckload of people who can learn from the Two Rivers (as seen in <i>Winter's Heart</i>, where they talk about all the boys picked up from the Two Rivers...)<br /><br />All the lunatics who are male wilders in the Two Rivers area, probably go to Taren Ferry, or head into the Mountains of the Mist or something. Though I don't have anything to prove that...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<br /><br />The Detective: Rand<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes Without Sleep <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />Looking for RPers to join Tarmon Gaidon @ ER<br />- the definite Wheel of Time RPG online!<br /><br />*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 11:50:18
subject: <b>One question (likely to be rhetoric)</b>
body:
Is there any mention about two channeling persons having children who are _not_ able to channel?<br /><br />*basic genetics*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 13:57:14
subject: <b>About Rand and the Taveren...</b>
body:
Doh!  *Smacks forehead with palm*<br /><br />I completely forgot that Rand wasn't from the Two Rivers when I wrote this.  Sorry.  The theory still stands.<br /><br />Also, in the vein of why there would be no mad male channelers in the Two Rivers...<br /><br />Maybe Tavereness works outside of time.  Maybe the fact that there were going to be three taverens in the little village caused none of the male cahnnelers to go mad.  (Maybe).  This would fit with the theory that taveren are like large objects in space with high gravitational pull.  They actually bend light, slowing it, and therefore bend time.  This is kinda out there though.<br /><br />Another idea is that maybe it's just the females in the Two Rivers that are strong.  Maybe they totally lack the male channeling gene at all.<br /><br />And about the taveren...<br /><br />Maybe tavereness doesn't manifest until a certain age (like channeling).<br /><br />Another idea is that all their tavereness went into bending the pattern in a way that would allow Moiraine to find them.<br /><br />I'm just throwing up ideas here, so don't flame...<br /><br />Xoe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 17:47:19
subject: <b>Kari</b>
body:
Yeah I knew Kari wasn't Rand's real mom, but I was just wondering where she was from, she did die young and for no reason really given in the books, wilder maybe? I was just kinda thinking outloud. I asked somebody in chat and they said she was from Andor. I wonder if we will ever find out why she died.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 19:01:00
subject: <b>elaboration</b>
body:
First, I not only agree with the theory, but had accepted it as a given for some time.<br />As for the subject of other males in the 2rivers, I first want to point out one detail. With channelers, some have the ability inborn (it will manifest no matter what) and some can be tought: I believe it has been stated that this is true for both men and women. Only males with the spark inborn will go insane unless they try to teach themselves to channel without even knowing that it's possible (which I find very unlikely, at least pre-Black Tower). As for why we haven't seen any crazies from 2rivers, keep in mind how few women with the spark inborn Nynaeve remembered from home (back when Moiraine confronted her regarding the truth of her abilities in tEotW): I believe it was only two or three that she'd ever HEARD of. So if the number of men with the spark inborn is about the same--and I don't see why it would be otherwise--we've only got two or three male channelers to explain about. Add to this the fact that madness isn't always--or even usually--instantaneous, but that trying to touch the power without training kills I believe it was 75%--and it seems likely that the 2rivers probably had a couple of men who died suddenly of mysterious illnesses, which although not an everyday occurance is nonetheless ordinary enough to have escaped comment by any of the characters.


created: 2002-02-13 19:07:14
subject: <b>I have a small question?!</b>
body:
I may have forgotten or maybe I never seen it. But can someone please tell me where in the series it says Kari is not his real mother. As far as I can remember the Aiel were calling him the son of Kari or something like maybe I got my characters confused. And as far as channeling being that strong by genetics, wouldn't they all have mental malfunction if they were interbreeding that much. And the Aes Sedai saying they feel the power strong in certain people is worthless knowledge. Saying as how Moraine was stuck on Egwene until Nynaeve showed up. She was sure that Egwene was the strongest ever. Rand I believe is strong for two reasons. 1) He's the Dragon Reborn, Caromoor, et cetera.<br />But all Dragon Reborn is only a name so the people may have hope, like Mesiah(did I spell that right)(ohh well) <br />2) Rand has been pushing himself beyond his limit sense the beginning, always trying to do things he couldn't do. I believe someone wrote a theory about this. He only learned how to use the power cause he needed it most then. Eye of the World. And when he fights the forsaken he struggles at first but need and fear kick in and whala he wins(plus ta'veren) Genetics may be the reason for strength. But what of Perrin, is it also then genetic for Wolfbrothers to be born. I doubt sense there are so few. Sorry kinda got carried away there.<br /><br /><br />Life and Death is all one elaborate story. Read it, enjoy it, and don't give up too early.<br />


created: 2002-02-13 20:17:34
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Channeling is without a doubt recessive genetic (it says it in the guide damnit!), but how it's recessive genetic exactly is unknown. It could be as simple as eye colour (which actually isn't all that simple) or it could be more like height.<br /><br />Anyway, from my understanding, if it was like eye colour then Rand's children with Elayne and with Aviendha would pretty much have to be able to channel (of course I don't know how the spark effects this). With Min, one of 2 things will happen. Either none of her children will have the ability (this will happen if she passes on the dominant gene) or roughly half of them will.<br /><br />PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. Of course, I don't think it's likely to be like eye colour (more genes are involved no doubt), because if it was then being able to channel would be similar to having blue eyes. Only 2-3% of the population could channel during the AoL and while I don't have any figures, I find it hard to believe that only 2-3% of the world have blue eyes.<br /><br />Oh and on ta'veren, we've heard at numerous times throught the series that people aren't ta'veren for life, they are only ta'veren while the pattern needs them to be.<br /><br />As for men not going mad that often in the Two Rivers, you just need to look at the numbers. In the AoL where they found all those who could channel, only 2-3% of the population could channel. Now take into acount that it has been culled out of mankind (even in the Two Rivers to some extent, compared to the AoL at least) then we're definitely no higher than 2%. After that you need to consider the fact that only those with the spark inborn would either go mad or die suddenly. I dunno if there are any numbers available (if there are shout them out), but it's pretty rare to have the spark, let's say 1 in 30 channelers have it (the odds might be worst than that, but the number serves). Then we have only 0.0666% of men born in the Two rivers with the spark. Thinking of the limited population of the Two Rivers, it is hardly surprising that very few men go through this and it appears to simply be an unexplained sickness.


created: 2002-02-13 22:34:47
subject: <b>Rand's Mom Spoilers.............</b>
body:
Maisac,<br /><br />As someone above said, Janduin was Rand's biological father.  He was the Aiel chief who led the Aiel when they crossed the Dragonwall to kill Laman.  <br /><br />His mother is the interesting story.  The Aiel Wise Ones first reveal it to Rand just after Rhuidean in TSR.  His mother was an outlander woman who was found wandering the waste.  The woman only called herself Shaiel and talked of a child left behind and a husband she didn't love.  She also said that Gitara Moroso (the Aes Sedai who told Moiraine and Siuan Sanche that the Dragon had been Reborn) had told her to cross the Spine or the world would fall under the shadow.  She became a Maiden, crossed the Dragonwall, became Janduin's lover (apparently), and died just after giving birth on the slope of the Dragonwall.<br /><br />If you'd been piecing together the seemingly meaningless history of Andor at this point, you'd already have it figured out.  But it was spelled out in no uncertain terms a couple books later in LoC (pretty sure that was when it was).  Tigraine was the Daughter-Heir of Andor, she was the sister of Lord Luc (slayer), and married to Taringail Damodred (the husband she didn't love), and the mother of Galadedrid Damodrid (the son she didn't love).  Taringail later married Morgase and fathered Gawyn and Elayne.<br /><br />Random characters had been telling Rand ever since EotW that he looked both like Tigraine and an Aielman.  <br /><br />So to sum up, Janduin is Rand's father, Tigraine/Shaiel is his mother, and Galad is Rand's half-brother.  Elayne and Gawyn would be some sort of weird non-relation.  (Step-Siblings once removed?!!?)<br /><br />Which brings me to an interesting question...  Why is Galad's last name Damodred but Gawyn and Elayne are Trakands?


created: 2002-02-14 04:37:26
subject: <b>trakand/damodred</b>
body:
elayne and gawyn are trakand cos taringail married into House Trakand, rather then morgase marrying into House Damodred.  given the way andorans are, it's likely that marrying into Damodred would've given morgase political problems (i seem to remember reading that Trakand was not a major House before morgase became queen) and may have even been enough to keep her from the throne.<br /><br />if taringail also married into tigraine's house, then galad should have her house name, rather than damodred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 08:53:30
subject: <b>Male madness in the Two Rivers</b>
body:
There is a mention of mle madness in the Two Rivers, and it may or may not have to do with channelling.<br />When Perrin was with the Prophet, he was thinking about how Massema(sp?) was crazy, and remembered  a guy who went crazy when Perrin was a kid. The guy refused to eat because he thought people were trying to poison him. He died before he had a chance to start rotting. I think this was in the same chapter as the six-toed-cats remark.<br /><br />PS- Re: Rand's mommy spoilers.... <br />      &quot;she left behind a child she did love, and a husband she did not.&quot; That's a quote from an Aiel Wise One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 16:40:54
subject: <b>stubborness &amp; the spark</b>
body:
A fair amount of page space seems to be devoted to how the Two Rivers people are stubborn, resilient, etc.  I think this could be a factor in the number of channelers with the spark inborn that survive.  If Two Rivers folk tend to be tougher than your average Tairen, it seems that they'd have a better chance of surviving One Power induced &quot;growing pains&quot;.  They then become a normal part of society - a wilder without knowledge of their abilities.  Like how Nynaeve would have ended up, had she had the opportunity to live out her days in the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Of course, if there were a fair number of surviving wilders, you would think we'd have heard something about a past wisdom that lived for a couple hundred years.  Maybe it takes regular &amp; consistent use of the power to develop the whole longevity thing.<br /><br />Another possibility I've been thinking about . . .  is that the percentage of male channelers with the spark inborn is less than the female portion with the spark.  Just another difference between the sexes &amp; how they go about accessing the One Power.  And to balance that out, there are more men than women who are capable of learning how to channel.  That might explain the ease that the Black Tower has had in recruiting, as well as the lack of targets for the Red Ajah over the years.<br /><br />Just a few thoughts.


created: 2002-02-15 11:47:47
subject: <b>woah, woah, woah</b>
body:
Rand is NOT from the two rivers, his blood is that of the royal line and the aiel.  he was adopted by a two river's man...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;This may hurt a little<br />          But it's something you'll get used to.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 21:29:03
subject: <b>If that's so then why don't the strong and weak channelers balance each other out?</b>
body:
Unless there were only strong channelers to begin with in emond's field then there would also be a bunch of weak channelers who would dilute the gene pool and make the channelers weaker. Unless they just got really lucky and only bred strong to strong then the two sides would cancel each other out.<br /><br />Interesting theory though. . .<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-18 08:09:27
subject: <b>Forgotten again</b>
body:
Logain mentions that the Black Tower has recruited men out of the Two Rivers (either on his or Taim's orders).  This is in WH. <br /><br />So it's not just the females there.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-18 14:42:47
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I liked the comment on how it might be that male channelers are more likely to need to learn the ability rather then having the inborn spark.  This would indeed explain the number of men who have come to the black tower to be taught how to channel.  It makes a big difference in the two powers Saidin and Saidar, if Saidin needs to be taught to most rather then being a natural occurance and Saidar is something more commonly found. <br /><br />It could really explain the difference in how they are accessed, With Saidar your supposed to surrender your self to it, much like what would happen if it was inborn in you, you would eventually have to surrender to the notion that you can channel, where as Saidin needs to be controlled, wrestled ina  way to do as you bid it,  Sounds much like forcing it to do something, like being taught to do it.<br /><br />As for the Two Rivers producing large amounts of channelers, well i think that genetics are in favour of the situation, Like the Aiel and the Sea Folk the genetic lines would only reach so far. Thus it would produce slightly stronger lines of channelers.  Rand is Aiel, so that would explain his strength, well that and he's the Dragon Reborn.   And as for the lack of men going insane and what not, perhaps it is more likely to be needed to be taught to the men in that area, as a result of the genetics involved in channelers in that area. there are some cases of male wilders in the two Rivers, I mean the man who went insane and died mysteriously HAD to be an example of how sometimes the men were born with the spark and then died before anyone really knew what caused it.  Also there is always the possibility that the wisdom at the time could have concealed anything strange so as not to cause panic, simple sociology, cover up what you don't society to see, and try as hard as possible to keep it from the children, (which Perrin, Mat, Rand and most of the others from there would have been in any occurences of this...<br /><br />so ya thats what I think...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-18 22:25:22
subject: <b>I like the idea about the learning differences.</b>
body:
In WH it was remarked that it was unheard of to have three generations of channelers in the same family(as happened with some Windfinders, for those who don't remember)but it isn't really surprising when you think about it.<br />I mean, Aes Sedai seldom marry and I'm positive MCs aren't likely to have kids often.<br />The Two Rivers is just about the only place where people with channeling potential have families.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 19:09:49
subject: <b>Where doe it mention...</b>
body:
The 6 toed cats?????<br /><br />&lt;(-_-)&gt;<br />(&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />_(&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 21:12:50
subject: <b>about kari not being rands mother</b>
body:
it states without a doubt in the first hundred pages of the first book that kari was not his mother. when tam is in a fevor after trollocs attack the barn (along with narg, the great lord of the dark), he goes on about finding rand on dragonmount.  he says something about seeing a dead aiel woman aka his mother aka tigraine laying nearby or possibly even holding him and &quot;kari, i always knew you wanted a child&quot; (not a direct quote).


created: 2002-03-12 15:37:17
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
Ive not read all the comments, but I'm gonna post this anyway.<br /><br />Yes the two rivers are geographic isolated, but does it matter? People from the two rivers are strong in the power, but why would natural selection favor channeler rather than &quot;normal&quot; people? Most of the channeler in the Two Rivers don't even know that they have the ability and the few who can, do it without knowing it. So they have not got any control of the power.<br /><br />Maybe I've missed something, but I just can't see why natural selection would favor channelers. I even bet that if the Aes Sedais looked really hard would they found other places with just as many high-level channelers. The only reason that Aes Sedais are focusing on the Two Rivers is because of Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene ect. Without them, the Two River's channelers  would never have been known.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May the Vikings unite and bring terror to the world once again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 02:44:44
subject: <b>Re: Rands 1st use of the Power</b>
body:
Rand first used the Power in the Two Rivers while he and Co. were fleeing the Trollocs and Myddrall, not in the Eye of the World.  He healed Bela's weariness.


created: 2002-05-06 20:42:08
subject: <b>what about rand?</b>
body:
i like the theory, except for the little problem that Rand isn't actually from the two rivers, he doesn't really even have any two rivers blood in him....


created: 2003-02-17 12:57:57
subject: <b>Just 6 toes?</b>
body:
All my cats have 7 at least... heheheheh<br /><br />No, really.<br />But anyways, I don't think interbreeding works too well with humans, and since the ratio of channelers:non channelers should be about the same in the two rivers as everywhere else, then it wouldn't really matter.  One more point is, my cats aren't really inbred, we get fresh blood every year or so, but damned if those multidigited cats don't keep showing up... which brings to light another point, perhaps sometime in the past a couple of very powerful channelers settled down in the two rivers (with their six toed cats) and started making babies.... which would result, through one of those dominant traits, with powerful channelers and their pet multitoed cats.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Rillion<br /><br />&quot;Freemasons run the country&quot;<br />-Germs on Smithers' face</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-20 16:29:11
subject: <b>My own two cents . . .</b>
body:
I like the genetic theory as well. It just makes good sense. <br /><br />As to why there is a good concentration in the Two Rivers, well, look at it from this point. Emond's Field is very isolated, now and I'm guessing in the past it was as well. It's just a bunch of tabac and wool farmers--nothing there to draw people in. There hasn't been a big influx of people (until after Perrin Goldeneyes) since Hawkwing's time or even before. Since they all intermarry (limited pool of mates) any recessive gene is bound to come to the fore. This would be especially true if there were a large number of people with the potential back in the beginning. I also like the part about stubbornness and channeling. I think that probably comes from a cultural standpoint, though, not genetics (i.e. the Aiel and the Atha'an Miere), though isolation of a culture is likely to strengthen a person's belief in their culture as the best one/only way. <br /><br />Now, on to the Aiel. Basically the same argument about the numbers of channelers. They were quite isolated. From before the time of the Age of Legends, they had been a distinct race of people. They almost never allow outsiders to become a part of their society. Add several hundred years of interbreeding in, and you have a very limited gene pool. Now think about this: the Aiel catch *every* woman with the spark inborn. Doesn't it make sense that they would catch a large number of those who can learn as well? As far as men with the spark, they always go off to kill the Dark One or else throw themselves off a cliff. But what about those who can learn? Both the men and women who can learn are out there leading regular lives, getting married, having kids with the potential, who do the same. The recessive gene will definitely come out on top. <br /><br />I could say much the same about the Windfinders of the Atha'an Miere, but I don't need to, and you see the pattern yourself. <br /><br />limited gene pool+lack of outsiders=large number of sparkers and/or potential channelers.<br /><br />What I'm curious to know is this: Is there a difference in sparkers and potentials? Sort of like a carrier for a disease and a person with it . . . Being that channeling is recessive, it doesn't seem as if my analogy would work, but I still wonder. If anyone has any idea, please feel free to jump in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2007-03-26 16:56:05
subject: <b>hehehe....umm just wondering</b>
body:
this doesnt work though, well not for rand. for nyneave and egwene, yes but not rand. i actually like the theory, agree with it but, rand wasnt born in the two rivers...he was born on dragonmount. just something to think about i guess<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">amanda</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-21 20:50:05
subject: <b>Notes from a late-comer</b>
body:
I realize I&#8217;m a latecomer to the issue, but I just couldn&#8217;t help myself.<br /><br />How the channeling gene is passed on depends a great deal on several variables. I&#8217;ll give an example of a real genetic trait, give some explanation of how works, and how it&#8217;s passed.<br /><br />There&#8217;s a real genetic defect called &#8220;X-linked Hypophosphotemia&#8221; or XLH, also sometimes referred to as &#8220;Vitamin D resistant rickets&#8221;. Before you try understanding it, you might need a little brush up on human anatomy and physiology. With some indulgence on you&#8217;re part, I&#8217;ll explain &#8211; if anyone has a strong medical background, please forgive some of the oversimplifications I might have to use for those without the tech talk training.<br /><br />The human skeleton is made up primarily of calcium (chemical symbol &#8220;Ca&#8221; ) with a fair amount of phosphorous (chemical symbol &#8220;P&#8221; ) thrown in. But, contrary to common belief, the bones are not static; they are being broken down and built back up all the time; a perpetual internal remodeling project. When making bone material the body takes the CA and P, mixes in some vitamin D (as a catalyst) and voila! we have bone. During the breakdown process the Ca and P are both released into the bloodstream. Mechanisms exist within the body to re-capture both for reuse for more bone making. In the case of P, that mechanism is a specific enzyme in the kidneys. It traps the P and recycles it back into the bloodstream so it isn&#8217;t eliminated.<br /><br />With XLH, this enzyme is missing: the P doesn&#8217;t get recycled. As a result the body becomes dangerously low on P and the mechanism of bone construction is badly affected. Sufferers exhibit several symptoms similar to rickets (a dietary deficiency) including:<br /><br />Stunted growth (rarely exceeding 5 feet in height), brittle bones (easily broken and slow to heal), bowed legs (major weight-bearing bones sag under the pressure), abnormal curvature of the spine (they don&#8217;t usually look like hunchbacks, the resemblance is more like a really old woman with that unnatural curve to her back from osteoporosis).<br /><br />In addition, XLH sufferers frequently exhibit,<br /><br />Unusually uneven length of arms and legs &#8211; body weight stunts leg length in addition to the bowing, aggravating the short stature and causing a far greater than normal disparity in the ratio between leg and arm lengths. With this added to the bowed legs, sufferers are sometimes confused with tallish (4-foot to 4.5-foot midgets or dwarfs (look them up to see the difference).<br /><br />Early onset of arthritis &#8211; the body does not process the recycled Ca well and deposits it in the joints. Significant arthritis onset can be identified in major joints (elbows and especially knees) as early as age 12; lesser joints like fingers and spine as early as age 20.<br />Early onsets of other bone-related maladies like spinal stenosis (look it up for detail), both of which rapidly become seriously debilitating. These problems usually begin requiring surgical corrective measures by age 35-40. Without these measures an individual can have their entire spinal column fuse solid by age 55.<br /><br />Additionally, males suffer more harshly from this condition; the various effects hit them at younger ages, hit them harder (often profoundly), and debilitate them earlier.<br /><br />Without getting further in-depth (and further off course), I&#8217;ll explain why I even mention this condition: it is a real genetic defect. It is passed to offspring in a specific pattern (no pun intended).<br /><br />In XLH, the defect is X-linked. Those of us who remember our biology understand this means its carried by the X chromosome (associated with females), not the Y (for males). During procreation the mother provides half the genetic makeup of the child, the other half comes from the father. The embryo always gets an X from the mother. If it gets an X from the father, it becomes female. If it gets a Y from the father it becomes male.<br /><br />A male who has the trait, then, cannot pass it to a son: he&#8217;s passing a non-involved Y. He has a 50% chance of passing an involved X. A father who had all sons would pass it to none of them, and all the sons could procreate without worry of passing on the recessive.<br /><br />A female who has the trait, has a 50% chance of passing it to offspring of either gender. Unfortunately, even if a child does not manifest the defect, they may still have it and pass it to their own children in their turn. Surprise! Any child which does manifest the defect is then in the position of a parent described above.<br /><br />The &#8220;Channeling Gene&#8221; may work in a similar manner. This would explain the comparative rarity: For XLH it is &lt; 1 in 200,000. Also, it would explain why an unpredictable number of siblings and/or other family members might or might not manifest it. It&#8217;s a genetic crap shoot; it took decades for our modern genetic science to figure it out, how would the &#8220;primitives&#8221; living in a rough equivalent of 17th century Europe see any pattern? Some get it, some don&#8217;t.<br /><br />It might, however, explain a little bit about the prevalence ratios we seem to see concerning &#8220;sparks&#8221; and &#8220;learners&#8221;. The WT has a lot of Spark types while the BT is mostly filled with &#8220;Learners&#8221;. If the genetic trait for Sparks is more prevalent in females and the &#8220;Learners&#8221; is more prevalent in males, we have our answer. Tracing transmissibility to offspring I&#8217;ll leave to the rest of you.<br />


created: 2002-02-14 00:01:38
subject: <b>This is proven untrue in the Guide</b>
body:
In the Guide, it says that Seanchan Aes Sedai used the Portal Stones to go into other worlds and get all the Seanchan exotics - <i>raken</i>, <i>corlm</i>, etc. - that thety use in battle. They used them to wipe out Shadowspawn in Seanchan. Obviously, if they were Aes Sedai they were female - this was after the breaking so all male channelers were dead or stilled, and new ones would not survive long enough to do this, and if they are called Aes Sedai it's a moot point. They were female. They used the Portal Stones, quite a lot. Theory disproven.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 00:22:28
subject: <b>Lanfear put them there</b>
body:
The lovely Lanfear was the one who put Rand, Loial &amp; Hurin in the alternate reality in the first place. <br /><br />Since when ever Rand takes hold of the source at that time it is literally life or death for him and the fact that you can only channel Spirit in your sleep (except in TAR) and the Portal Stone needs more that that I think.<br /><br />Therefore, someone else channeled the portal stone &amp; brought them to the alternate reality. This person being Lanfear.<br /><br />The reason Lanfear didn't stay was so that she could convice Rand to turn eventually, but most importantly so she can get her hands onto him without any other women trying to interfere (as we know they do).<br /><br />There you have it. Women can use it, so can men, just depends if they have the knowledge &amp; the strength.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />GreySlayer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Blademaster of the Botherhood of the Flame<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Halfmen - a great breakfast treat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-14 01:27:54
subject: <b>response to ruhira sedia</b>
body:
the other worlds are just like our own except that they are hinged on something of chance i.e. turning left instead of right, or someone dying instead of living.  that means that the grom and such are in all the worlds, if they are a natural species, and the Seanchan wouldn't have to travel to others to get them.  thats it.


created: 2002-02-14 04:48:09
subject: <b>actually</b>
body:
the worlds one can travel to via portal stone are &quot;the worlds that might be.&quot;<br /><br />this does not mean that all things exist in all worlds.  quite the contrary.  if you'll remember, the world rand and co went to was devoid of most life.  there were no people, no trollocs, only grolm.<br /><br />and if it's in the guide, then it's official.  besides, ruriha knows what she's about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 18:23:57
subject: <b>I think Greyslayer is right - credit it to Lanfear</b>
body:
Lanfear brought Rand, Loial and Hurin in the other world. Rand could only channel Spirit and how did he channel on a symbol while sleeping anyway... Had he done so, Lanfear had no way that we know of to follow him in the exact world where he ended up. She would have done like Ishy and reached him through his dreams and TAR. As far as we know, even the Chosen didn't know a lot about the ancient portal stones in the AOL.<br /><br />The portal stone was Lanfear's idea, most likely improvised when the occasion presented itself, to split Rand from the others (especially if she knew Ingtar to work for someone else) and make contact with him. She forced him to channel because she wanted to see for herself that he was who he was and if he was really strong. She had tried to make him channel in Fal Dara (that little trick with Air while he was practicing with Lan) but it didn't work.<br /><br />Being in Fal Dara she could now identify Rand by sight and she knew he was part of the hunt and where they were. She could also give a bit of help from time to time, like directing them toward Cairhien. How could she be so confident about the direction Fain would take if she wasn't the one who liberated him and sent him to Barthanes in the first place?  <br /><br />I think Ishamael and Mesaana intended to capture or control Rand once he was brought by the Amyrlin to Tar Valon. It's probably Siuan Sanche who was targeted by the Gray Man : the occasion for Ishy/Mesaana to get rid of a meddling Amyrlin and put a BA sister near or on the Seat. The timing to get control of the Tower was very good with Rand going to TV and the Seanchan damanes coming to the Westlands. <br /><br />From Tar Valon Mesaana could have Rand shielded by 13 BA and Travelled to wherever the Chosen wanted to gather Myrdraal and turn him to the Shadow. From Grandeal in LoC we know that Mesaana had promised _a few times_ to the others that she was just about getting Rand under her control - and failed each time. One was his capture in Tear, but the other times? That's what Liandrin was doing in Fal Dara, trying to find Rand and making sure he was to follow the AS to the Tower. And that's why she was investigating in Fain's prison after the escape : to report to her master what happened there - if Fain's escape had been part of Ishy's plan, she had no logical reason to go there and attract attention. Ishy also wanted the Horn to be sent to Shayol Ghul as his Myrdraal tried to do over and over again by retaking control from Fain - and Padan Fain was to be killed in the prison for the traitor he was.<br /><br />Lanfear ruined all their plans liberating him and sending him toward Toman Head where supposedly he would get revenge. She must has had an encounter with him before : &quot;You? Not who I expected&quot;.<br /><br />Lanfear likes to give clues about her presence - she just can't resist it. So I think she's the one who wrote down the Dark Prophecy as well and that's why it talks of her certain victory and Rand serving her alive or dead.  None of the other egomaniac Chosen had any reason to advertise HER victory on a wall like that. The interesting bit is the Luc/Isam paragraph... I wonder a lot how Miss Tel'aran'riod is linked to Slayer - did she reveal him to foil someone else's plans or, given it's so obscure a reference, is it another instance of her hinting at her doings and making known she was Slayer's first master? His early missions in the Tower sure fitted her plans the most : saving the girls she intented to send to Tear from the other Chosen's attempts to kill them. Slayer also uses TAR with some skills, which may point to her again. And she's the one who doesn't like to use Shadownspawn as agents. She also had motives to send Slayer kill Fain later on : he was after her dear Dragon and could attract him where she didn't want him to be.<br /><br />In the end Lanfear's plan was to get Rand out of the grip of Ishy and Mesaana and, once she had him under complete control and madly in love with her, destroy together the other Chosen and be named Nae'blis. In this, she is the one who had motives to bring Rand to Falme. Semirhage and Ishamael were not likely to want him in the middle of their Seanchan invasion and thus neither Mesaana nor Demandred would have done it as they were working together. Later on, Ishy and likley Mesaana were working together in a plan B to send the girls as some sort of hostages to Semirhage in Seanchan while Rand had disappeared for months - so once again the last place they wanted Rand to be was in Falme to rescue them, IMO.  Sammael, Be'lal, Rahvin and Moghedien were all busy at establishing themselves and Graendal certainly did not want Rand near Arad Doman. That leaves Lanfear who had plently of plans to foil while advancing her own by sending Rand to Toman Head. She knew perfectly well where to find him at the end of TGH too. <br /> <br />This is further suggested by the fact she kept the four Forsaken whose plans she had foiled out of her little scheme in TSR. They must have suspected if not known it was her who was working against them early on.<br /><br />I guess that's also why Lord Barthanes why was killed like a traitor when he helped Fain and spoke to Rand in Cairhien - one of the other Chosen had him killed for that. Lanfear must have discovered about his Waygate. There's not tons of evidence to prove it, but I think that Lanfear's palace was in Cairhien.  That would explain why she was discreet there, not wanting to attract the attention of the other Chosen's spies by entering by the gate with Rand and having the whole city talk about this mysterious Cairhienin lady in white that nobody knew - a beacon for Ishy and company.<br />


created: 2002-02-14 22:21:36
subject: <b>ishy brought lanfear</b>
body:
i agree with men only being able to use the portal stones. rand, loial, and hurin had to travel for a time until it came to the point that it was already dark. rand was having the watch at that time and ishy came to him with his fog entourage. the following day, they met lanfear attacked by a grolm. and that's how lanfear was able to go to that alternate world: by a plot schemed by ishy and lanfear.


created: 2002-02-15 14:32:56
subject: <b>To Greyslayer</b>
body:
I'm sorry, did you just say you can only channel spirit in your sleep and in T'A'R? Where does it say that? So how do AS bond warders using spirit (expressly mentioned several times)? Would someone please be so kind as to explain?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 15:15:37
subject: <b>It's the other way around</b>
body:
Greyslayer didn't mean that Spirit could only be channeled in sleep, he meant that while they are asleep AS can only channel Spirit and not the other four. For channeling Earth, Fire, Air or Water they must be awake or be in TAR. <br /><br />Nynaeve/Elayne referred to that fact a couple of times.


created: 2002-02-18 19:08:35
subject: <b>Forgetting something...</b>
body:
The void just slipped over Rand while he was going to sleep, which RJ used as a literary technique to implicitly show that Rand was about to channel (which does happen unknowingly when somebody starts to channel without a teacher).  After giving this to us, having Lanfear be responsible would be redundant.  And, Rand is ta'veren.  He HAD to somehow catch up to Fain and retrieve the dagger and Horn, and the pattern pushed him into it.  <br />I believe that Lanfear was probably watching over Rand and was brought in with him (Egwene's dream).  And if not, how do we know that a Portal Stone doesn't leave some residue or some sign showing where it sent the last party to use it?  <br />Regardless, Rand channeled and sent his party to the alternate world.  No doubt about it.  If Lanfear was responsible, sending Rand into another world would be one thing, but why Loial and Hurin.  Why not transport the dead bodies of Loial and Hurin with Rand, therefore he would be extremely vulnerable when he found her, and lonely.<br />As for the theory, you are missing one key point.  EVERYBODY who knows what Rand is in the first 4 books tries to make sure that he cultivates himself accordingly.  Lanfear wants him to channel out of the Portal Stone so he can learn to be a hero; she wants him to seek glory.  She doesn't need him to channel out; I am sure that 20, 40, or however many Grolm wouldn't stand a chance with her.  Verin does so because he is ta'veren and the DR, which definitely raises the chance of success.  As for the trip to the waste, he was the leader and the strongest present, and was the only one with experience.  Again, good thought process, just the wrong result.<br /><br />Dedric, the philosopher


created: 2002-02-28 05:31:00
subject: <b>EVERYBODY MISSED A BIG POINT!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
What all the people have missed is that Lanfear had to be there before Rand, BUT!!, How did she know where it would take him????<br /><br />Three options:<br /><br />1)    Lanfear somehow set it to take him to the right world;<br /><br />2)    She some how knew before hand that he would go there  (outer limits music should cut in here);<br /><br />3)    or it was just blind luck.<br /><br /><br />The third being unlikely, that leaves the first two.<br /><br /><br />Hmmm........<br /><br />Also she knew what the Grolm were, indicating contact/knowledge of the Seanchan.<br /><br />The whole incident always struck me as contrived, a set-up, so I am inclined to be in favour of the first option.


created: 2002-07-29 12:20:16
subject: <b>Here's a thought</b>
body:
Lanfear transported Rand, Hurin, and Loial to that world herself to seperate and try to take control of Rand through manipulation, duh!!!!


created: 2002-08-09 18:24:52
subject: <b>rand to alt world.. (lanfear?)</b>
body:
I agree competely that it was rand who transported the there, rj is not so that he would have the void flow over rand as he fell asleep for no reason then have lanfear use the stone. she or ishy could have been constantly watching over them, or checking on them throughout their ride, and the portalstones presented themselves (or one was manipulating the person who made the decisions about where to go/camp) and she happend to be there when they were transported.<br />she had plenty of time to get away once they were in the alternate world. they were still asleep until morning AND she can do the gating thing (forgive me, i havnt read a book in months with my working 6 days/ 11 hrs) and just watched over their path until the opertunity to spear rand presented itself.<br />also, she could have made rand port them back (pointing the right symbol...) even if she could (which i honestly think it has nothing to do with m/f but power)because she wants him to reach fame and glory THROUGH the power, ie, she was training him in a way to do just that (...rescuing them all with the power and then &quot;rewarding&quot; him).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> =  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />  mmm halfing newts are tasty (especialy bannana)


created: 2002-08-09 19:04:43
subject: <b>this was posted on the wrong one originally so im sorry</b>
body:
Is there not more than one way to be bound to the WOT?<br />If this is true, their could have been many ways Bridgett was bound to it in the past. She could have existed under other names, bound to the wheel different ways, but in one of her &quot;lives&quot; , that which she was bound to the horn, was not the original that made her bound to the wheel. She could have existed bound to the wheel under other names, but her most recent that secured her to the wheel was the horn, that initial name being &quot;Bridgett&quot; made her soul that in TAR, even if she was another before in TAR.<br /><br />im sorry if this is not understood, im not good with words and i often repeat myself:<br />Bridgett could have been bound FIRST as someone else, not to the horn though, then became bound to the horn... under bridgett, thus soul bein bridgett with other names/memories of her from others, before her life as bridgett<br /><br />ps, it talks in the books about her lives' memories fading, but it also says that she had the same attitude/personality in each life, thus she may have forgotten even her original life (which rj doesnt say she remembers it) but remember her essence of being because it is alway the same. her being called bridgett could also be just one of her names that she liked the most (or the thought behind how she got the name bridgett silverbor) so she chose that to be her everpresent name. and as the memory fades, that continues to be present for the strong feelint. you see there are many possibilities to this. <br />Blackboard Post: 12259 <br /><br />it NEVER says the only creatures in the alt world are the grolm.<br /><br />it just happens that the only ones the see are.<br /><br />there could even be humans there, under ground, in hiding, highly knowledgeable and thus living in supreme locations (noth those particular planes) on on another continent.<br /><br />if the seanchan overtook that world, they could have realized their home is much more suitable and just stayed there (just ideas, not that i agree with them)<br /><br />also, with the comment about the past aes sedai, does it say the went to other worlds or just places. the beasts could have just been from some remote place they hadnt found on the island, like how on earth, you can only find certain species in certain places (ignoring things like importing by humans and such)<br /><br /><br />regarding recent events, the heros of the past, the leader or whatever used to be could have very well in one of these weavings been nocked out of their rank by hawkwing when he got his place. it says the patterns ma change and if matt was ripped out of the fabric like bridgett was, the would someone not have to replace him as the blower of the horn in weaves to come? whos to say the wheel doesnt weave heros OUT of the pattern as well as in. (same concept with bridgett...)<br /><br />just throwing this in, why could the wheel not have forseen something happening like bridgett being ripped out and already replaced her with a respective significant or rewoven (or will re-weave if it hasnt started yet) her in through a NEW deed that she does in this age...<br />... and we are brought back to the theory bridgett coud have been woven as many different ORIGINAL souls, woven in as a different role and/or taking the name of the perferred past life she had, may still have soul of previous person (could also be the instance with hawkwing)<br /><br /><br /><br />if you want to send me emails or give me new or forgotten facts, i will see it first (if at all) at<br />eiryyl@hotmail.com <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />evil rules all!!!! screw all you sissys and your non pvp servers. your just scared of our POWER MWAHAHAH <br />


created: 2002-08-09 19:08:10
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
NEVER MIND<br />only part of that was on the wrong board, the whole thing about bridgett was in the right place, forgive me i am at work and have been interupted 10 times while going thru this stuff. ARG its so frustrating<br />at least im not playing everquest<br />now thats not a good thing to do at a workplace where you get interupted often...


created: 2002-08-30 10:59:35
subject: <b>c'mon</b>
body:
Does no one here believe Lanfear ?  If she is a Forsaken, does<br />it mean she is also the Mother of Lies ?<br />I think she said a bit of truth. She was near them when the<br />teleportation took place, but I doubt she was asleep.<br />She lied just a bit, like any other woman.(sorry)


created: 2002-02-14 01:34:49
subject: <b>Division of Dragon &amp; Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
I actually believe that Rand &amp; LTT will infact split.<br /><br />This is due to the fact of Lanfear, Bethamel and Aginor being put into another body so that their spirits are kept alive.<br /><br />Sure, they were brought back by the DO. But since we have been told that death (like stilling) can't be healed but we have seen (like stilling) people being brought back from the dead, surely this can happen.<br /><br />There has been too many issues of linking &amp; merging (eg Luc and they talk to each other), that there has to be a way to divide. RJ and his balance again.<br /><br />In short, we will have at some point in the last battle, Rand AND LTT fighting, LTT being killed &amp; his blood spilling instead of Rand. Rands girls mourning over LTT's body while Rand is still alive.<br /><br />LTT stops crying &amp; Rand stops whineing.<br /><br />GreySlayer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Blademaster of the Brotherhood of the Flame<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-02-14 04:57:41
subject: <b>one soul, several personalities</b>
body:
rand and ltt are the same soul, but not the same person.  each is a product of his own experiences and therefore are separate personalities.<br /><br />what is different in rand's case is that he has two active personalities at once, like the barrier between lives has been removed for him.  perhaps the taint is the reason for this or it could be as simple as the fact that he is the dr and needs access to ltt's knowledge, so the pattern makes allowances for him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 08:03:03
subject: <b>It's</b>
body:
not unique at all. The barrier in Rand's head has been broken down by the taint which is why he hears another voice, it's LTT personality and memories being put into a voice so his mind can handle it. Other men who can channel will often go through the same thing, the barrier breaks down and suddenly they have other memories and another personality in their head. They of course also subconciously give it a voice, they need to if they are to survive, you can't have two seperate personalities going at once. The only difference is, Rand alone in the entire world know's who the last incarnation of his soul was. Every other man who gets this doesn't realise it's his past life, rather just a voice in his head.


created: 2002-02-14 10:59:38
subject: <b>A comparison</b>
body:
Interesting idea. This thought track leads me to thinking about the Dune series. Anyone who's ever read them will know what I mean, but for those unfortunate souls who haven't <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> , there is an order called the Bene Gesserit, who, through the Spice Agony (primary component being INTENSE pain) gain access to Other Memory. This Other Memory is consisted of female ancestors that were in the Sisterhood. There is also something called an Abomination. Abominations have the dubious distinction of being &quot;pre-born&quot;, meaning that they gained full consciousness while still in the womb. They also have access to an almost complete genetic memory. One of the main reasons that people like this are called abominations is that they can be possessed by past personalities.<br /><br />Well, that was a haphazard explanation. I'm leaving a lot out, mostly because this is a WoT post and not a Dune forum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. However the comparisons are stunning to me. It is widely accepted that Frank Herbert's work in the Dune series heavily influenced Jordan in his creation. This is just one more possible facet of this. Ishamael/Moridin, Rand, Mat, all face the prospect of memory that is not theirs.


created: 2002-02-14 19:07:11
subject: <b>While I agree that They will merge,</b>
body:
CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH THIS LTT WILL DIE BUT RAND WILL LIVE CRAP?????<br /><br />There is absolutley NO evidence for that, and just because it says Dragon is no proof either way. Remember that LTT was not the first Dragon, either. <br /><br />Come on, people. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 19:24:41
subject: <b>One will die</b>
body:
People seem to forget Min's complete viewing of the merger of two people (Rand and LTT).  She also saw that one of the two will die.  Now normally in any series that I have read the main character does not die at the end of the book.  I don not see any reason why this should be different.  Since we know one of them has to die, I believe it will be LTT.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />  Scarab<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John S. Mill</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 21:03:02
subject: <b>Just one Dragon</b>
body:
Rand IS the Dragon.  Simply because part of his soul was present before, he's now known as &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot;. It'd be just like saying, &quot;The Dragon is Back.&quot;<br /><br />Something Jeordam said was interesting...he commented about Lews Therin's 'atonement'.  For what?  (yes, I know -- breaking the world)<br /><br />Lews Therin already 'atoned' by winning the War of Legends and plugging the bore.  He suffered from the backlash of the Dark One and, pretty darn predictably, went nuts.  World breaking or not, he still saved the world.  I tend to think that balances things out. <br /><br />Lastly, while it is the same soul, I think that it's a nifty idea to consider that Rand may be 'greater' than Lews Therin. Yes, he's used LTT's knowledge, first to survive and then as a library, but he faced enormous obstacles that LTT didn't -- most notably, no teacher.  And he does things that send LTT into frantic hysterics, yet succeeds. <br /><br />Rand is always underestimated by the Forsaken, usually to their harm.  And his greatest victories do not seem to come from using LTT's info, but from him own, sheepherder background and training.


created: 2002-02-15 07:15:51
subject: <b>And</b>
body:
the fact that he's ta'veren. Plus he has had training, Asmodeon trained him and he has learned a few things from Taim. Of course he didn't have training till book 5, but he has had some.<br /><br />As for Min's viewing, we have no proof that LTT is the man who has to die, even though Rand thinks that's what it means.


created: 2002-02-15 09:52:23
subject: <b>Huh! Interesting...</b>
body:
This is similar to a thought I had one time, but mine wasn't this thought out.*Grumbles*...Anyway, personally, I agree with this theory, but it may be quite a while yet until we know for sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 10:16:44
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
<br />LTT is dead, and is never coming back again. LTT is nothing more than another incarnation of the Dragon, that we know has been fighting THOUSANDS of times against the DO.<br />Rand has memories of LTT, just like Mat has memories of past lives. The only difference between them is that Rand is affected by the taint, and therefore goes mad, whereas Mat doesn't.<br />Rand will defeat the DO, emprison him again, until someone frees him once more, and the story will start again....<br />As RJ says, there is no end to the wheel of time, unless it is broken.


created: 2002-02-15 10:41:59
subject: <b>You made me think...</b>
body:
Nothing important really,but is it not funny that Rand was born on the very mountain that was created when LTT went nuts. That alone to me provides some proof that LTT is alive. Makes sense enough, we've seen Ogiers sing to trees and the trees grant them things, why would mountains created by the One Power be any different. I say LTT knew he was going mad and that the DO would be back so in preparation for the future and on the chance that the Shadow would once again attack, LTT made himself into a mountain of which ,like the DO, his soul would linger about, and When Rand was born lews therin sensed his power to be and became one with him. One ? though, why didn't the Aes Sedai just take the boy as the heard his thunderous cry, and raise him in the tower so that they could control him, granted the world would be doomed, but the Aes Sedai should punish them selves for their mistakes


created: 2002-02-15 14:33:06
subject: <b>*thinks*</b>
body:
In Fires of Heaven, Rand goes into the World of Dreams in the flesh. While there, he starts to turn into a shorter, dark man, and he turns back. My thought is that that's LEws Therin trying to take over.<br /><br />SO...what would happen if he went into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, Lews Therin gained control of his body, and then left the Dream World? Which of them would leave- Rand, or LT?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 01:34:59
subject: <b>Hey, Three in A boat!</b>
body:
&quot;not unique at all. The barrier in Rand's head has been broken down by the taint which is why he hears another voice, it's LTT personality and memories being put into a voice so his mind can handle it. Other men who can channel will often go through the same thing, the barrier breaks down and suddenly they have other memories and another personality in their head. They of course also subconciously give it a voice, they need to if they are to survive, you can't have two seperate personalities going at once. The only difference is, Rand alone in the entire world know's who the last incarnation of his soul was. Every other man who gets this doesn't realise it's his past life, rather just a voice in his head.&quot;<br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> has a LOT of memories in his head but he doesn't put voice to it, subconciously or whatsoever. <br /><br />Hi everyone! I'm Jahar<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 19:53:56
subject: <b>What's a nice hero like you doing in a body like this?</b>
body:
I imagine LTT's merger with Rand as a total merger.  Rand will get all of LTT's memory; the personalities will balance out perfectly.  (If I'm right let's hope the Rand part can override the mad part.)  Essentially Rand and LTT would become the same person; the new person would respond equally well to &quot;Hey, Lews Therin!&quot; as &quot;What's up, Rand?&quot; <br /><br />There's some precedent for this, I think -- I'm remembering the Magician series, where Tomas got all of Ashen-Shugar's memories and powers, eventually, while remaining Thomas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 20:02:04
subject: <b>I thought</b>
body:
that only the Heros were reborn when they were needed. Can someone explain?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" />  Existence is Futile!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Light is Bright, there for I look into it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Asmodean:  You!  No! <br />Rhuarc:  Oh.  Sorry.  Sometimes I forget to wear pants. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 04:41:44
subject: <b>getting frustrated with poorly thought-out theories</b>
body:
dude...Rand's &quot;Blood&quot; that will be spilled at the last battle will either be Galad(His half brother with the new and improved White Cloaks behind him, for those who don't pay good attention) or the Aiel(&quot;Born of a maiden of the spear.........His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul&quot; )  When is RJ ever litteral???  So wouldn't his prophesies be even more figurative... LLT will have nothing to do with the Last Battle accept that he has been reborn as Rand.  Now that the taint has been lifted, LTT and Rand's thoughts and memmories will become one, thereby fullfilling Min's viewing of Rand and another man merging into one.  I realize that some of what I said above may come as a surprise to some people.  this scares me.  If you're gonna read this series PAY ATTENTION!!!  And Please, at least get a second opinion about your theories before you submit them!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I read sometimes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-25 13:31:06
subject: <b>RE: Getting tired of poorly thought-out theories</b>
body:
Hey, while I'll admit that we have no way of knowing if this theory is accurate, you cannot prove that you are correct either. So before you get condescending with the theories of others, perhaps YOU should get a second opinion on what YOU say. I don't mean to be harsh, but either be constructive in your criticism, or keep it to yourself.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 22:07:20
subject: <b>What if the person that takes over att eh last battle ISNT Lew Therin?</b>
body:
Someone mentioned, or several someones, the Dragon archetype.  Lews Therin, Rand al'Thor, and so on as the Wheel turns are all simply expressions or personalities of the same Dragon.  So couldn't it be true that the same Dragon archetype takes over at teh end, not necessarily Rand or LTT?  This notion gets messy when you consider that in TGH Rand is called Lews Therin...maybe Lews Therin is the archetype, maybe not.  But I don't think the &quot;archetype&quot; could live for himself, but is just carried out in many different ways.  Probably wrong, but still could be right!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 13:30:07
subject: <b>RJ is always surprizing us</b>
body:
I think that rands blood on the rocks will be the aiel.  what better way to break them than to send them against the hoardes of Shayol Ghul.  I don't beleave that just telling the aiel that they used to follow the way of the leaf was enough punishment for what they did to the aes sedai of old.  they were charged with keeping safe the knoledge and artifacts for the next age and they failed miserable.<br /><br />work like you don't need the money <br />dance like noone is watching<br />love like you've never been hurt<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-30 12:32:00
subject: <b>Rand's Blood/LTT</b>
body:
I tend to be of the opinion that The Dragon references the soul, not the body (eg Rand being different then LTT).  <br /><br />However, I'm also of the opinion that it was LTT who assisted Rand in his battle against Sammael in Shadar Logoth  (the unknown, mysterious near look-a-like).<br /><br />I tend to think that LTT will continue to &quot;rant&quot; in Rand's head even without the Taint (as cleansed in bk9), but his rant's will become more directed toward the objective of winning the final battle.<br /><br />i imagine that the two spirits will merge, per min's vision, in the last battle.  <br /><br />and to fulfill her and egwene's 3 women and a corpse with a funeral pyre, I anticipate Rand-- yes, Rand-- biting the big one.<br /><br />The remaining question's are (and they're unresolvable at this point, imho): <br />* will Rand remain &quot;dead&quot;?  My supposition is that the &quot;dragon&quot; will remain dead to come again and Rand will make it back, although he may prove &quot;gentled&quot; in the process.<br /><br />* what will happen to LTT ? My supposition is that he will be, at long last, reunited with Ileyna in Telan'hd.<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-02 23:47:17
subject: <b>the aiel....</b>
body:
will be his blood spilled. they'll be the ones fighting against the blight and all it's little occupants, to allow rand, the ash'aman, and the rebel aes sedai (unless they all make up first <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ),<br />to get to shayol ghul.<br /><br /><br />part of one of the prophecies of the aiel,<br /><br />'only a remnant of a remnant will be saved'<br /><br />revealing they were once the gai'shain aiel didn't KILL them. so something else will. <br /><br />or maybe it's his blood (from the wound), with galad's blood, with the aiel blood, and all his other relatives, all bleeding into a big puddle which does something.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 07:20:44
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I was just wondering if this would also explain the answer Rand got from the Eelfin(?) about &quot;If you would live you must die.&quot;<br /><br />Ie: to survive Tarmon Gai'don Rand has to lose his life to Lews Therin, thereby dying, and then when TG is over Lews Therin finally dies and Rand gets to continue on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 23:05:23
subject: <b>Last Battle</b>
body:
Rand has heard to live he must die, my theory is that in the last battle Lews will face the dark one kill and die but rand will survive. Min had a veiwing that one of them will die and the other would survive,i think it will be Lews and Rand will survive.


created: 2002-08-26 20:10:01
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
i believe that you are on to somthing here, good job <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===========================<br />The cynics are right nine times out of ten.<br />HENRY MENCKEN<br />Funny how just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does.<br />DOUGLAS ADAMS<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I attempt to make everyone&#8217;s day a little happier. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 12:31:50
subject: <b>not enough for a real theory</b>
body:
hi guys, this or something similar has probably been said before, but i think that he dragon's blood on the rocks just means that the aiel will fight at shayol ghul.  ive noticed that RJ usually fulfills the prophecies in logical ways.  the whole lews therin split and one dies but not the other just seems really complicated to me.  ive also seen posts that say galad, luc/isam, and others of rand's bloodline will be the ones shedding blood.  right now, the aiel are still the best fighting force rand has squarely under his thumb (as squarely as you can have aiel), so why shuoldnt he open gateways to shayol ghul for the spear of the dragon to take a stab at the dark one.<br /><br />sorry if this is off-topic.  i wanted to say, it but i dont have the time or the energy to try and find some kind of real evidence top make an official theory post.  if anyone would like to expand this idea into an actual theory, be my guest.<br /><br />thanks for listening,<br />Onnestabe<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-23 09:53:06
subject: <b>Remember this one</b>
body:
In Book 6, I think that one of the young initiates says something in a foreseeing about the three woman in a boat with the man that has died and yet is not dead.<br /><br />I like the idea that LTT takes Rand over at the last, fights the Dark One and during the course of which LTT is killed (thus fulfilling his desire).


created: 2002-10-11 13:23:54
subject: <b>i would have to disagree</b>
body:
on the basis of Rand not giving his mind and body up to another.....besides that would defeat RJ's building up of a really awsome character, Rand al'Thor.  It is Rand that has been created throughout the entire series and it is Rand who will defeat the Dark One.


created: 2002-11-27 10:40:55
subject: <b>interesting but i have an addition</b>
body:
If LTT IS in Rand's head then he wasnt really reborn..he's sort of.. a ghost, is a good word or maybe even a parasite in some sense. but thats off topic...moving on.  If he IS in Rand's head and that is his soul then who is Rands soul? they are abviously two different souls.  LTT's is in rands body but what about rands? a person cant have two souls can they? so the point is.. who is rand really if his soul isnt really that of the Dragon but is just a vessel for the dragons soul?  it was a bit rambling but there it is... i'd gladly take any input out there.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Ashaman Dusma<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-28 08:23:57
subject: <b>Might be some more evidence?</b>
body:
I just read this in another theory but it might be proof that you are right about rhand and ltt splicing in some way:<br /><br />Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />&gt;&gt;Once for morning, once for birth&lt;&lt;<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow<br /><br />once for birth, that might mine the splicing of rhand and ltt and with that the eclipse or volcano burst. you could fantasise on and on with this (yeah baby).


created: 2003-02-11 08:58:29
subject: <b>Various comments</b>
body:
For those of you who think Rand is crazy, you lost me.  Obviously, the presence of LTT in his head does not mean he's crazy.  This was clear to me all along.  LTT gives him info.  Something's really there. Not imagined.<br />His blood on the rocks could well mean the Aiel (or Galad I suppose but less likely).<br />There is support for LTT dying and not Rand, in Nicola's fortelling about a man not dead being mourned by 3 women.  One would think for LTT's death to fool people into thinking Rand dead would require some sort of physical manifestation for LTT as may have happened in SL.  <br />But I agree with the notion that Rand should win the Last Battle and not LTT.  I also agree with the notion that Rand is greater even than LTT, at least in potential.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-06 08:01:54
subject: <b>a couple of ideas (different) about LTT and Rand and the End</b>
body:
I think that maybe if LTT gets to sacrifice himself to beat the DO, he would maybe be able to forgive himself and &quot;die&quot; in peace and stop haunting Rand...<br /><br />Or maybe LTT's soul will be &quot;spilled&quot; through the wound on Rands side... Kind of like leeching Rand to not only get rid of LTT but also to clean the taint in his wound. &quot;His blood on the rocks...&quot;<br /><br />Or maybe LTT will put his soul into the wound to counter balance the &quot;evil&quot; that is obviously there, that stops it healing, so that Rand will finally be healed and will be able to get on with the business of ending the Last Battle, LTT sacrificing himself to make the ?defeat of the DO possible.<br /><br />Just a coiple of ideas, I haven't decided on one yet!


created: 2003-06-03 09:35:34
subject: <b>Nice job!</b>
body:
I honestly did'nt even catch on to the prophecies called The Dragon, and not The Dragon Reborn... That is totally possible.  Oh, and I don't know if this was said here or not, because I do not have the time to read all those replies, but the wounds in Rand's side are going to cancel each other out, in a way, like the prophecy says.  I forget exactly what the prophecy said, but it'll happen.


created: 2004-01-08 18:41:18
subject: <b>World of Dreams</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I just wanted to add a tidbit. Verin once lectured (I think in TGH) that while there were multiple worlds, there was only 1 Dark One. This meant on every world the DO had to be free or imprisoned. The only connection between all of these worlds is the World of Dreams. I think if we consider the part of the prophecy, '...is dead yet lives' that it is possible Rand/LTT must entire the World of Dreams in the flesh to imprison the Dark One forever. Remember in TDR when Belal's trap catches Faile. Perrin thought she was dead, yet she lived. Moraine told Perrin she would surely die, it was just a matter of time. Now what if Rand enters the World of Dreams, somehow he splits from LTT (there is a prior example of someone else trying to form themselves from him this time they form themselves separately) and the two of them battle the Dark One. There is only 1 body for them to go back to, so LTT lets Rand go back (or Rand fights free) but then he can't find his way back. Then we're set for Perrin to enter the Wolf Dream, find Rand, and return him to his body. We know from other hints that Perrin must save Rand or he will die.<br /><br />It's not very complete, but that's my idea about how the Last Battle will be won. Comments?


created: 2004-05-12 14:40:54
subject: <b>Does Lews hear Rand's Voice?</b>
body:
Just a quick thought - if LT is in Rand's head and causing Rand to question his sanity - Did LT have Rand's voice in his head while he was going crazy?  In the beginning of TEotW LT regained his sanity to understand what he did to his family and that is why he ran off and destroyed himself when he created Dragonmount.  I seem to recall more than one occasion when LT's voice asked Rand &quot;Are you real?&quot; - so again, could Rand have been the voice in LT's head when he was going crazy?


created: 2005-03-24 14:03:12
subject: <b>LTT's third person</b>
body:
Remember how Ishamael told Rand that they fought their battle in every Age?  I seem to remember some of the other Forsaken talking about it too.  I think the third person LTT is talking about was from the Age before the Age of Legends, and maybe he was in LTT's head as well.  Also, remember Min *saw* Rand merging with someone--LTT--and she *saw* that one of them dies.


created: 2005-07-14 12:39:16
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
We know that the taint was cleansed from saidin using shadar logoth as a sieve, because SL power and the power of the DO appear to consume one another.<br /><br />Is it not conceivable that Rand's wound opening, spilling his blood on the rocks of SG would release some of that SL taint there?  I envision another sheathing of the sword excercise.  The DO strikes, sure of his triumph, the blade plunges into Rand's wounded side.  As he crumples to the ground his tainted blood spills onto the rocks SL power fights DO taint ...etc something epic occurs ie.  Ka-boom! SG is now a matching crater to the former SL.<br /><br />Just my 2 copper


created: 2005-07-28 21:33:40
subject: <b>Min's viewing about Rand &amp; LTT</b>
body:
I seem to remember a part in A Crown Of Swords (maybe?) where Min views Rand and someone else merging (kind of) into one and then views one of them dying.  This kinda hints at the fact that LTT will die whilst a part of Rand.  That would be The Dragon's blood on the rocks of SG, while allowing Rand to live....somehow.  I could be wrong, I was just going off memory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.<br />                                  -Stephen Hawking</font><p><a href="http://coolbean.mywebhut.com" target="_blank">Coolbean > Developer Resources & Modern Technologies Customer Area</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-08 23:21:08
subject: <b>I would like to think so</b>
body:
I keep going back and forth about this one. Most people continue to say that Rand can't die because of the fact that he is a main character, but Rand keeps talking about the fact that he is going to die. I'm sorry, but I would almost like to see it happen. Just because it isn't supposed to. I like it when people cry at books. I did in HP6. Sometimes you have to go against the grain. I dunno.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-04 23:30:24
subject: <b>Dragon's Blood</b>
body:
If the prophecies are read as referring to Lews, not Rand, then the Aiel, or Galad, or Rand's children, aren't his &quot;blood&quot;, also note the word stains, it is referring to real blood, blood relatives don't stain rock.  People rely to much on characters thoughts, they think of the prophecies as they believe the meaning to be, read the prophecies, Wotmania has an encyclopedia with the full prophecies, a slight change in wording can change the meaning completely.


created: 2006-05-26 03:08:15
subject: <b>Maybe that is what is meant about dying twice</b>
body:
This is just a thought. LLT takes over full control of Rand's body and is killed by Alivia thereby destroying the final seal and allowing the Dark One to assume control of Rand's supposedly deceased body. Along comes the most unlikely hero Padan Fain who attacks what he sees as both of his most hated enemies (Rand and the Dark One) causing The body to die for the second time in one day. Since the Soul (Rand Al'Thor) that actually belonged in the body had not died to begin with, I believe that Rand would Return to life yet again and do battle with The Dark One who is now in poession of the only other body that could possibly contain the evil that is the Shaitan, Padan Fain/Mordeth.


created: 2007-08-08 20:09:11
subject: <b>Lews Therin Alive And In The Flesh</b>
body:
I think that LTT might come out of Rand in TAr and they both might go tho SG, Rand will get seriosly injured, but LTT might sacrifice himself because he is always talking about killing himself.<br />This theory comes from a fortelling of Nicola's:<br />&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.&quot;<br />She says that he who is dead yet lives which might mean that Rand lives while LTT dies and leaves Rand's head.<br />You might disagree, but this makes alot of scence to me.


created: 2008-03-06 02:02:47
subject: <b>possession is bad</b>
body:
this is an interesting theory but the only other mention of lews therin taking control of rands body was when moiraine mentions her trip through the ter'angreal in rhuidean in her letter to rand saying that one out come of the days events might have been rand being captured by lanfear and emerging later, being her lover and calling himself &quot;lews therin&quot;. i dont know, i guess im just a little wary of the whole control theory.


created: 2008-05-07 04:41:19
subject: <b>Spice Agony</b>
body:
I too am leaning toward the Other Memory explanation of the LTT/Rand dillema. <br />We see in KoD that Rand has assimilated one of Lews Therins habbits, namly thumbing his ear and humming when seeing a pretty woman, and he seems to no longer resisting/aware of doing so. My guess is that the Taint eroded the barrier, but it also prevents reintegration of the old personality. Now that the Taint is gone reintergation migth be possible, and the resulting personality is an aglamation of LTT and Rand but with Rand as the dominant part.


created: 2008-10-17 16:10:26
subject: <b>Prophecy</b>
body:
Just on the multiple personalities and stuff.LTT and Rand are both vessels of the Ta'veren entity 'The Dragon'.Therefore,there are others.If we take the prophecy quote 'Red on black,the Dragons blood...' and the fact that there is excerpts of Herid Fel mentioning the Dragon raised up as the Shadows champion in past turnings of the wheel,it stands to reason that the DO can raise his champion from death,what with his power over the grave.Apart from the fact that the rocks of Shayol Gul are black and blood is red,Moridin is a virtual unknown and his livery colour of choice is the only other reference to anything else red and black in the series,possibly he is the Shadow's champion resurrected.This addresses RJ's need for balance,i.e. The Dragon is balanced by an 'Anti-Dragon' instead of the overwhelming power of the DO,that cryptic viewing of Min's is explained in which no direct reference is made to Rand dying specificaly,and also the fact that if Alivia helps Rand kill Moridin,she is literally helping The Dragon die,just not a specific vessel.<br />Opinions?


created: 2002-02-14 01:26:13
subject: <b>I'm FIRST!!!!</b>
body:
I think that that theory is well thought out, but I don't see that the DO's hole in his prison could be healed. As the adm. said, it had 20 years to heal in the AoL, but it didn't. I think that it was probably getting worse. If it was healing itself, the DO was ripping it apart faster than it was healing. I agree that all three ta'verne will have to be present at the Last Battle to win. We have a pretty good idea of what Rand and Mat will be doing...but I'm not so sure what Perrin can do yet unless it invloves the wolves in some way. Come to think about it though, wolves would make excellent scouts or they could target gray men and such. Hmm. Interesting thought. Maybe we will find out more in book 10.


created: 2002-02-14 02:28:43
subject: <b>Good, but...</b>
body:
Quite a good theory, but I have one contention.  Personally, I don't think the seals were the pattern, so much as a web of the one power that bridged a gap in the pattern.  That still leaves the theory open that the three ta'veren could pull the pattern together there, but the power would probably still be needed to hold it together, which wouldn't seal it too much better than the original seals.  On the other hand, I remember hearing RJ meant to leave it somewhat open-ended, so I gueass that's possible.  I just think that Rand will have to come up with something even more surprising and unlooked for than that.  IMOHO, of course.  It's a good thought, though.  RAFO.


created: 2002-02-14 06:15:55
subject: <b>Why are the seals weakening now?</b>
body:
<br />A question that has never been answered (as far as I know) is: why everything is happening at this specific time?<br />Are the seals weakening because of Rand's presence, or is it the contrary, is Rand here because the seals are weakening.<br />My opinion is that Verin's mistake 70 years ago (maybe she tried to channel the True Power for example) has started somehow the process of re-opening the Bore, and at the same time triggered the process of the rebirth of the Dragon.


created: 2002-02-14 08:08:05
subject: <b>Wait a sec...</b>
body:
I thought the bore was done somewhere around 100 years before the end of the War of Power, but it was so small that the DO couldn't reach through to the world for a long time, until it became larger.


created: 2002-02-14 10:18:29
subject: <b>Healing is Hokey...</b>
body:
Yeah, I think the self-healing idea is a little off. The DO isn't powerful enough to break the Prison himself, but with outside access, he can whittle it down over time. But the thought still bothers me...why press the attack? Why take such open action against humankind? All he would really have to do is wait it out. Maybe it has something to do with the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; thing. When the Bore was first drilled, it was a certain size. In the 50 to 100 years between the drilling and the War of Power (see TSASG), civilization took a serious turn for the worse. Maybe the Bore WAS healing, but the DO can counter that with massive, insidious chaos. After all, despite how it sometimes may seem, the Pattern is the source of Order, and &quot;belief and Order strengthen,&quot; as Herid Fel would say.<br /><br />I had always thought that the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; edict was just to distract Rand and Friends from a more direct action. They do seem to be putting out fires more than they are looking for the match, if you know what I mean. Now, however, I'm thinking that the DO needs chaos for another reason.<br /><br />This kinda bleeds over into other theories that I've read here, but I thought it applied <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-15 10:21:35
subject: <b>hhmm probably wrong so correct me if so...</b>
body:
but did the books not say that the DO and the Creator both were outside of the pattern, how else could the DO restring the Forsaken. To say that the Pattern itself is the Prison, would be saying the DO's trapped inside the pattern. I believe that Shayul Ghul is only a location shielding a gateway that is forever open, a gateway outside of the <br />Pattern where they can fight the DO directing instead of indirectly. Perhaps i'm wrong, but many people before have theorized that the DO is the Creator thus being outside the Pattern either way.


created: 2002-02-17 22:19:27
subject: <b>Not sure I agree, but...</b>
body:
the idea of the Pattern 'healing' itself is an interesting one.  It made me think of the Ways -- portals to other worlds.  The way-portals could even be considered weak points, just like the Bore is.  After all, this is where Machin Shin lingered.  And the Way Gates were 'created' by Ogier tree-singing, if I recall. <br /><br />I'm guessing that the Song will be needed to heal them, and the same thing may work to seal (heal) the Bore.  And three ta'veren could be what makes it happen.


created: 2002-02-18 12:32:25
subject: <b>300 years</b>
body:
between the drilling and the start of the war<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 05:37:20
subject: <b>The Bore</b>
body:
Now this is a theory I like.<br />First of all i think your right about the pattern itself being the prison for two reasons.<br />1.What other reason would the the dark one have to be so intent on destroying the pattern?<br />2.I belive it was Demandred who in the prologue of LoC, thinks that the dark ones prison isn't closer to Shayol Ghul<br />then any other place, but there is a thining of the pattern here that makes it possible to bade in his precence.<br /><br />The second thing I like is about the nature of ta&#180;veren.<br />Ta&#180;varen makes things that is very unlikely to happen happen anyway. Maybe yoo only have to get the healingprocess a lite nudge in the right direction to get it on the right track so to speak, but that also indicates that the three ta&#180;veren on the slopes of Shayol Ghul could nudge the healing process in the other direction if they are unlucky and thats why the dark one doesn&#180;t have Mat and Perrin killed. And that is something that has been buggin me for a while.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-02-20 18:46:05
subject: <b>Just a troubling thought</b>
body:
There's something that's been bugging me for awhile. Why haven't the forsaken bored more holes in the dark ones prison. Lanfear of all people should have some kind of idea as to how it's done. If she helped bore on hole why not more of them?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 17:39:23
subject: <b>Pattern not the Prison _exactly_</b>
body:
As someone else said on this thread, the prison might be viewed as that _aspect_ of the Pattern that currently makes it untouchable by the DO, but that doesn't mean it's the Pattern itself.  <br /><br />Someone else said that the prison must be the Pattern because that would explain why the DO needs to destroy it to free himself.  But the reason given for why the DO wants to destroy the Pattern is that it _recurs_.  Since it always brings history back again, there will once again be a time during which the DO is firmly imprisoned, and there is no bore.  The DO wants to destroy the pattern so that this won't re-happen.  And, more fundamentally, he wants to destroy the Pattern because he's the Dark One.


created: 2002-05-12 02:22:11
subject: <b>The DO Flew over the Dragon's Nest</b>
body:
It always seemed like it was more like the DO wanted to remake the pattern into his own designs, more like subvert the pattern.  When the Creator sealed the DO out of the pattern at the moment of creation it seems more like the Creator built a &quot;fort&quot; or an island and made it so the DO couldn't get in.  Now we get into theology and the difference between good and evil, but it also sounds like the Creator used the already existing saidar and saidin to power the pattern and bind the DO and to a degree the Creator itself if to a lesser extent.  If you look at the whole situation from a standpoint of energy and its expression, you could look at the TP being the DO itself, that might explain the saa, or perhaps the DO supplanting the energy that comes from within the person using the TP. Hence the saa, as the DO supplies that energy you used from you soul or body or wherever, it feeds you a bit of itself into and the physical manifestation is the saa.  We also ned to look at the possibility that the seals of the bore were not just incomplete but flawed, that would explain things like the blight and the taint of the area of Shayol Ghoul, also it explains how Ishamael remained immortal even when he could influence the world with the DO &quot;bound&quot; when Aginor aged from being close to the surface. Surely the betrayer of hope would be higher up on the pecking order.  As for the bore &quot;healing&quot; I doubt that to be true because the DO warps the pattern around him and to his will kind of like a controlled version a &quot;super ta'veren&quot;.  I content that the Choedan Kal will be instrumental in handling the One Power and &quot;reweaving&quot; the Pattern over the Bore.  If this happened in ages past it could explain the &quot;weak spot&quot; around Shayol Ghoul as humans surely couldnt use the power as deftly as the Creator.


created: 2002-12-30 20:05:50
subject: <b>Not reweaving . . . but unweaving</b>
body:
Forgive me if this covers points already discussed by other folks, but it seems that like it is being missed.<br /><br />I don't think the pattern will heal itself.  If I remember correctly the bore is the result of Lanfear and Biedomon's attempt to access a new 'source' of the One Power (i.e. the True Power). The creation of the bore must have been through the use of the one power.  More than likely,  the weaves (of both saidar and saidin) that created the bore were tied off.  The weaves created and maintain the 'thin-ness in the pattern' resulting in the 'semi-permanence' of the bore.  Lews Therin and the AOL Aes-Sedai most likely did not know how to unmake a weave after it was created. There were clearly things that have been discovered since the AOL;  healing of stilling and bonding for example,  unweaving could easily not have been known at the time. <br /><br />I think that the unweaving of saidar by Elayne and Aviendha foreshadows the unweaving of the bore itself.  I think the conversations between Rand and Fel also point to this as Fel states that the prison must be made whole again by the time the AOL 'age' returns.  What better way to make the prision whole again than to 'unweave' the bore?  RJ doesn't throw things like unweaving out there just for the sake of it.  It's way to powerful a tool and it was introduced in his subtle foreshadowing style that suggests it will have a large use later.<br /><br /><br />Summary:  Rand will learn unweaving from Elayne/Aviendha and he and another female channeler (and perhaps more linked together) will 'unweave' the bore repairing the DO's prison.<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-24 09:36:56
subject: <b>Yes....But...</b>
body:
Yes--Rand needs to break the remaining seals.  This is made clearer and clearer in each book.<br /><br />Yes--All three boys need to be at the last battle.  &quot;Remove one leg and the tripod falls&quot;  All three are necessary.<br /><br />The pattern can't heal itself without help, that's why all three were spun out together.  The bore couldn't heal itself in the AoL because there weren't three strong ta'averen, only one (LTT).<br /><br />But what does this have to do with Rand dying and living again and the three men as one and oh....too many left out possibilities.  Too many unanswered threads.  Can't give you full agreement.  Sorry. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-14 02:19:53
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
Wow.  I can't possibly know, but this is the most unique and yet validly supported theory I've read yet.  I'm impressed, but that leaves so many options open for the purpose of that third person it's unreal.  Good luck with this one though.


created: 2002-02-14 07:03:39
subject: <b>Makes sense</b>
body:
It made me think when did Rand first start getting voices of Lews Therin in his head - after taking his first wound at Falme.<br /><br />Now he has taken a second wound in his side this time from Fain and it is fighting the first wound - now he has a second image in his head.<br /><br />Maybe these images are the unconcious manifestation of the two wounds fighting each other. I know that Rand has been helped by LTT in his head. But me I think maybe he knew this stuff all along, like Mat had luck all along, and is attributing LTT for giving him these ideas as a way of rationalising the knowledge that comes to him. After all he knows he is the Dragon Reborn so it would make sense to have the Dragons memories advise him.


created: 2002-02-14 08:20:53
subject: <b>The identity</b>
body:
of the other one is obvious, as RJ has said. It seems so clear to me that I'm amazed people are still doubting it. I'll outline it below:<br /><br />One of the effects of the taint is that it breaks down the barrier between this incarnation of the soul and the last. So when Rand's barrier began to break, he got another set of memories and personalities in his head, those of LTT.<br /><br />Now flash back to the AoL, LTT has led the Strike on Shayol Ghul and immediately the taint broke down his barrier. All of a sudden he has another set of memories and personalities in his head too, from his previous incarnation.<br /><br />Forwards again to Rand. Within LTT's memories is of course that memory of another voice in his head from the AoL.<br /><br />It's quite intuitive don't you think?


created: 2002-02-14 10:44:43
subject: <b>Fain's role</b>
body:
Man, I'm beginning to see a pattern here. I really like this idea, but is it just me, or is Fain beginning to sound more and more like a Gollum-esque character? A personification of one who has battled the evil, but is evil himself. <br /><br />I also must say that I REALLY like the idea of the two wounds in Rand's side being the source of the voices in his head. Thinking outside the mindtrap, one could say <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-14 12:37:03
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
Well I'm tired of people coming up with the &quot;revelation&quot; that rand is heavily based on King Arthur, but it doesn't make it any less true.


created: 2002-02-14 18:22:17
subject: <b>Don't forget</b>
body:
In Lord of Chaos, chapter 28,(Letters) Padan Fain is 'talking' about his connection to Rand: &quot;...a difference that had come suddenly almost as if someone else had suddenly taken a partial possession of al'Thor...&quot; The most obvious explanation for the difference is Alanna's bond.   Apparently, he can feel the bond in Rand's head. Only Lews Therin was ever aware of the bond wihout being told. There is never any indicaation that his various other bondholders are aware of Alanna's bond, and she herself was unaware that he was bonded again, only feeling what had to have been the actual bonding. She implies that she hasn't been aware of the bond once she recovered, but Fain's quote implies a continuous awareness of the difference in Rand's head. Here's a creepy thought.  What if Fain's connection is actually what keeps Alanna from controlling him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 21:12:05
subject: <b>Mrs. Burnsworth, Padan Fain, and another</b>
body:
Mrs. Burnsworth may well have cringed to see you misspell 'essence'   :-)  (sorry, couldn't resist)<br /><br />Excellent theory, strong support, original...and I disagree.<br /><br />I confess I'm basing it more on a hunch, but that hunch is founded being aware of RJ's penchant for matching opposites.<br /><br />LTT and Rand are creators as well as destroyers.  They are builders even as they tear things down.  It would stand to reason that the third would be as well.  LTT isn't exactly a cheerful sort and tends to paint things in as negative a light as possible.<br /><br />Fain, while fascinating and immensely powerful, has nothing creative about him.  He's pure ravener.  That would make him akin to (tho' exponentially greater than) Slayer.  Yet LTT includes him as one of them.  <br /><br />and simply because of someone's groaning about 3rd dragons, it made me think of Guaire Amalasan -- NOT as a third dragon, but he's never been established as being evil.  He's just the guy Hawkwing beat.  Amalasan sounded like a pretty cool dude, actually.<br /><br />Why should rebirth pass him by?  Maybe HE has his own thread of re-births.  Lord knows it happens with plenty of other people.  He was *this* close to matching LTT, and only barely beaten by Hawkwing.  That essentially puts up in very rare company.   Maybe he's got his own thread going somewhere.  But that's just playing with the lint in my navel.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-14 22:20:02
subject: <b>Ooh, Neato! ^_^</b>
body:
Wow! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> An interesting and original theory that I like. Good job. I'm not sure if I'd say that's what I believe, but it's most definitely a big possiblity.<br /><br />I do agree with whomever said that Fain is a &quot;Gollum-esque&quot; character. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> I always thought so too on some level.<br /><br />Again, good work on the theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-15 20:27:27
subject: <b>third dragon = no</b>
body:
Because its redundant, boring and far too simple.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i> &quot;Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.&quot; </i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-17 08:58:52
subject: <b>My God...</b>
body:
You're dismissing the past Dragon theory because it's redundant (how is it redundant? You're not even making sense), it's simple (yes, it is that obvious, why does that mean you should dismiss it?) and boring...you're not going to believe any theory you see unless it's exciting? Well I find theories on the Whitecloaks being like the Spanish Inquisiton broing, it doesn't mean I don't believe them.<br /><br />You mean one of two things when you so redundant, either that it is beyond what is required or that it is repetitive. Now clearly it's not the second one as you could never dismiss a theory just because it's repetitive. So it must be that the theory gives more than is required....yet you also called it simple. Oh dear.


created: 2002-02-18 04:28:51
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
it is repetitive, at least in the way AshaShan probably meant.  You know, one dragon, two dragons, three dragons, etc.  Just thought I would throw that in there.  I happen to agree with Three In A Boat, however, about the third destroyer.  There is nothing in AshaShan's argument that would dismiss the validity of the theory.  There is a rule known as Occham's Razor...<br /><br />Dedric, the philosopher


created: 2002-02-18 12:23:03
subject: <b>If he did</b>
body:
mean it's repetitive in that way, that just supports the third Dragon theory. After all, the whole basis behind the Wheel is repetitions.


created: 2002-02-18 15:22:29
subject: <b>Maybe Ishy is the soource of the voices?</b>
body:
I know I'm out on a limb here, but with people making the connection to the injury in Rand's side and the voice in his head, maybe it's the dark one's work that keeps LTT in his head.  After all, isn't Rand supposed to BE LTT?  There is just one soul involved here.  If LTT (as the voice in Rand's head) is a real person, either he or Rand is not the Dragon.  <br /><br />Is it not possible that LTT's voice in Rand's head is the DO working through the taint, or through the injury in his side, to cause the madness?<br /><br />Once again, just idle speculation, and full recognition that I may be out on a limb.


created: 2002-02-19 17:36:18
subject: <b>Identity of the previous incarnation</b>
body:
If Three in a Boat is right, which I think he is, and the Other One is the voice of a previous incarnation in Ltt's head, is there any reason why that &quot;previous&quot; incarnation of his couldn't be Rand?  Ltt is Rand reborn every bit as much as Rand is Ltt reborn.  I haven't found much to recommend this theory, but it does combine the obviousness of Three in a Boat's ideas without being boring.<br /><br />harrington


created: 2002-02-19 23:09:48
subject: <b>Fain as the other one ?</b>
body:
I am most in agreement with Cannoli. But my personal thoughts are as follows:Fain is connected to Rand by some sort of bond the Dark One laid on him. Fain said he could feel Rand. Sort of like a warders bond but not. I think Fain is an excellent canidate for &quot;the other one&quot;. But thats just my opinion. And I'm sorry for the lack of evidence to back my theory. Go ahead and prove me wrong.


created: 2002-02-20 15:01:52
subject: <b>Rand reincarnated as LTT reincarnated as Rand...</b>
body:
If the Other voice is Rand as LTT as Rand, then given a few cycles of the Wheel, he could tell himself some knock-knock jokes.<br />Hey LTT, Knock-Knock<br />Why do I have a mad man in my head. Who's there?<br />Narg.<br />&lt;crying&gt; Oh Sweet Ilyena! Narg who?<br />I don't have a punch line, anyone wanna fill in here? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I will be sad if the 3rd Dragon theory turns out to be correct. Because then shouldn't every Dragon have an infinite number of voices ranting in their heads? I could maybe accept a future Dragon if it's done correctly, (And No, I don't know what that would be.) but a previous Dragon from before LTT? Nope. No good.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 19:13:42
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
He wouldn't have an infinite number of voices in his head as it's highly unlikely that everytime the Dragon is reborn, the taint would affect him. If just one time in all the 7 ages the Dragon wasn't affected by the taint (which is very likely) then that would be the cut off point.


created: 2002-02-21 02:38:21
subject: <b>Infinite Dragons</b>
body:
I sort of like the recursiveness inherent in the idea of Ltt in Rand in Ltt in Rand ... for one thing it eliminates the need to introduce a brand new &quot;3rd dragon&quot; when in Rand and Ltt we already have a (presumably) infinite number of dragons. For another it ties Rand and Ltt together as one person, even though they are not the same person in the sense that Birgitte and Mat are relation to their previous lives.  It explains why Ltt is more aware of &quot;the other one&quot; than Rand, and is kind of a cool illustration of the nature of the wheel of time itself.  Finally it just has a sort of tricky elegant simplicity to it that appeals to me.<br /><br />The problem, in my view, of a 3rd dragon being some &quot;future&quot; Dragon is that Ltt is already a future dragon.  Anyway the &quot;current&quot; Dragon only would have one voice in his head, albeit a voice with a voice in its own head.<br /><br />Of course this all depends on one accepting the &quot;3rd Dragon theory&quot;, which is still a fairly risky proposition.<br /><br />harrington


created: 2002-02-26 08:47:03
subject: <b>My fears.</b>
body:
I suspect it is Moridin.  Remember when they balefired eachother's balefire at Shadar Logoth?  Something wierd happened, Rand seeing double, etc.  &amp; ever since, Moridin has beeen  talking about how he is directing Rand's actions, playing both sides of the Sh'Ara board, &amp; so on.<br /><br />Somehow part of M has got into Rand &amp; this is also Min's merger.  He certainly qualifies as a destroyer.


created: 2002-04-20 10:42:35
subject: <b>Masterfull thought</b>
body:
A brilliant theory. I do think that there is more to this than we think. An old man features too many times of late as well. Does Fain maybe have a destroyer the same as Rand is supposed to destroy the dark one?


created: 2002-04-27 04:05:14
subject: <b>Third Dragon? Blow me.</b>
body:
Seriously. Has RJ mentioned a third dragon? Has he mentioned any stories? A name? Anything? Nope. I *HIGHLY* doubt that it's a voice in LTT's head, who's a voice in Rand's head. It's a horrible idea, plain and simple.<br /><br />Fain, believable. Moridin? also a possibility. Something or someone that hasn't even been mentioned yet, and un dicslosed character that would have such a large impact this late in the books? Not likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 00:59:27
subject: <b>Where do people get the idea that</b>
body:
LTT had a voice in his head. He is mad in the prologue true but I don't remember him speaking to any other. He only speaks to Ishy. I personally like the idea of Fain being the other though I don't understand how LTT would be able to sense him. Fain can sense Rand but not the other way around. Still it is a good theory. Thee in a boat: care to elaborate on why the 3rd dragon makes so much sense. <br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda<br /><br />I would rather be feared then loved


created: 2002-06-26 00:27:03
subject: <b>Third one for Fain</b>
body:
Just a quick note on Fain here that sort of ties in in a nice symetrical way with Rand/LTT/3rd Voice(face) is that Fain is sort of three as well in that he is Fain/Mordeth/Machin Shin(sp?) the Black Wind.  Remember in EotW Fain is caught by the Black Wind for a while but is not consumed by it even though every other thing in WoT is, including Trollocs and Shadowspawn.  So how much did this effect Fain?<br /><br />Makes for a nice tie  in, maybe the Black Wind will take on the 3rd Face in Rand's head, Mordeth will take on LTT and Fain and Rand can party. ;-)


created: 2002-08-22 17:10:41
subject: <b>3 dragons and more</b>
body:
I think everyone is too readily getting rid of the theory that makes sence and works. I remember somewhere Ishy saying he had fought the dragon through endless turings of the wheel. I think there are many dragons but each one only gets memories from the previous one. Lewis Therin can stiil slightly remember his previos so Rand can too. It cant stretch farther than 3 tho. <br /><br /><br />I might be mistaken but that is only because i am mad that CoT was delayed. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-25 00:49:11
subject: <b>Corrections...</b>
body:
&quot; In Min's first viewing of Rand (EotW, p. 180 in hard cover) she speaks of a bloody hand and a white hot iron. While I admit that I have often assumed this to be Rand's hand, what if it isn't?&quot;<br /><br /><br />It certainly isn't,it's Mat's Band of The Red hand.<br /><br />And the white hot iron is of course Perrin as he's being shaped into possibly a king.<br /><br /><br />I disagree with this theory,I have nothing to back up why I dont buy it other than it just sounds implausable to me.


created: 2004-08-06 22:35:23
subject: <b>The Dragon Reborn Reborn as the Dragon Reborn as the Dragon Reborn...</b>
body:
Make sense outta that. It does, seriously.<br /><br />But for this theory correct, it would assume that there are only two Dragons per cycle - the Lord of the Morning and the Dragon Reborn. I don't know much abouth the ages, but I assume there have been at least 5 ( or 4, if the Time of Madness was the Second Age and the Age of Legends the First, but that's inprobable, because for the cycle to be complete, they need an age to forget the Dark One before they reach the age of Legends - and the Fourth Age is filled with Histories telling of the Dragon Reborn. )<br /><br />Now I don't remember this clearly, but I though Birgitte and Mat shared stories of things outdating their supposed lifetimes. Mat's memories are all of this age, so that means Birgitte has been reborn at least a few times this age.<br /><br />The Dragon is a rarer reincarnation ( as King Artur seems to be ) and has only be reborn once in the Third Age, and apparently once in the Age of Legends. If he hasn't been reborn in other ages, that would mean ages 4, 5+ and 1 are spent with the Dragonsoul in Tel'aran'rhiod. That's an awful long time. Quite probably, the Dragon has been reborn in other ages, therefore, the voice in Lews Therin Telamon's head ( if that is what it is ) would not be Rand's but the First Age Dragon, whoever he may be.<br /><br />Thanks for reading these useless lines.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 06:39:03
subject: <b>Hmmm.... Very ineresting...</b>
body:
I've also pondered on the whereabouts on this &quot;other one&quot;, and have so far drawn a blank... This is interesting...  It could very well be possible.  Lews Therin rarely speaks of this &quot;other one&quot;, but he seems not to say anything particular when Padan Fain is around... Like when Rand got slashed, there was no creepy quotes there.  He mentions the &quot;Other ONe&quot; several times, but only in passing, as if he is afraid...


created: 2008-08-15 23:49:26
subject: <b>Er...</b>
body:
I am currently bookless, but I am 99% certain that when LTT talks of hearing a voice in his head he is responding to Rand. This is mostly from memory so forgive me if I am wrong, but as I recall, the first few times LTT showed up, Rand thought he was mad, and didn't realise the voice would respond if he addressed it. Then Rand started talking to it, and LTT responded by thinking that Rand is a voice in HIS head. Apart from this I don't remember LTT making reference to hearing voices.<br /><br />I have read the series a few times, and I just cannot remember ever thinking that LTT was talking to another voice in his head. Never even thought about a third Dragon till I started lurking around wotmania and the like.... AFAIK when LTT mentions the Third Man it is a face that both he and Rand are seeing, not a voice he alone is hearing. This is completely inconsistent with the way Rand experiences LTT (this is confirmed, ish, in KoD - Semi says that some of the crazy men HEAR their past life selves talking, not that they SEE them).<br /><br />As I said, I have read the entire series a number of times, but I have to admit I have a memory like a sieve (one of the reasons I am able to enjoy rereading it so many times...) so please, if anyone can find the relevant quotes....


created: 2002-02-18 18:06:16
subject: <b>Very interesting</b>
body:
&quot;when Annoura, Cadsuane and Merana are alone in Merana notices Annoura &quot;rubbing her thumbs&quot;&quot;<br /><br />I think you missed a word after in, what was it?<br /><br />I'll ahve to go check the exact text, but it's a good find if true, it certainly seems to be the way they introduce themselves to each other if they suspect another.


created: 2002-02-18 20:10:57
subject: <b>Something to Remember</b>
body:
A recognition sign is flashed if you're not SURE if the other person is in the group you're in.  At least, that's what I would think -- if Annoura KNEW that Cadsuane was BA, then why would she give the signal?<br /><br />My point is that just because Annoura gave the sign to Cadsuane means nothing.  Perhaps Annoura has suspicions and wanted to confirm them.  Now, if Cadsuane was mentioned doing something odd in reply, as a countersign, then I might agree with this one, but I really doubt that Cadsuane is BA.  <br /><br />Unless . . . really terrifying thought just now, boys and girls -- not too long ago I commented that the BA girl in WH -- Elza? -- seemed very much under Cadsuane's influence, and Elza is very certain that the Dragon Reborn has to reach the Last Battle alive.  It struck me as a bit odd.<br /><br />What if it was Cadsuane, as a primary figure in the Black Ajah, who told Elza that that had to happen?  I've been concerned for some time now that Rand is going to get a knife in the back; perhaps Cadsuane's holding it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 21:25:22
subject: <b>Cadsuane's PoV</b>
body:
In WH where she thinks that &quot;she was almost on the verge of rooting the BA out, until her quarry slipped through her fingers&quot;. The section where she thinks about Caroline Damodred cousin (Moiraine)<br /><br />The BA is a 3rd party in her own mind.<br /><br />Annoura? Now there's a good point. There has to be a BA in Perrins' storyline somewhere?????????<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-18 22:03:39
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that some people are confused, the theories not that Cadsuane is BA, but that others think she is and that Annoura might well be.


created: 2002-02-18 23:54:19
subject: <b>Elza?</b>
body:
Wasn't Elza a member of the AS group that kidnapped Rand?  The only reason that she follows him now is because Verin used Complusion on her so that she would swear to follow him and believe in the fact that he MUST live until TG.  I don't think the knife in the back will come from her.  She seemed very determined, almost fanatic that he would live until TG.  <br /> <br />  I think that it's very possible that the next book will not center on Rand.  There are so many threads that need some progressing; Egwene and the AS, Perrin and the Shaido, Mat and Tuon, Moiraine and the Finns, etc.  But, I think Rand is the central character of the series and he must be in the book.  I don't think that RJ would leave him out completely, but maybe not revolve the book around him.  Maybe Rand and Nyn will be taken back to the Two Rivers to rest up.  Then when he wakes up he can catch up on lost time with Tam, and get some questions answered. <br /><br />Just a hopeful idea<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-19 00:50:22
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I never really paid attention to the &quot;secret sign&quot; of the BA before.  But looking back at some of the text I think there is more to it than I believed.  The scene with Aran'gar and Delaine is the obvious example, but if you look in WH when the captive Faile and Alliandre meet Galina (a known BA) Galina asks them if they know &quot;Who she is&quot; and &quot;What she is&quot;.  When she asks this she is &quot;thumbing&quot; her Great Serpent ring nervously (Faile's POV).  Now this might be just to draw attention to a symbol of an Aes Sedai or it may be the BA signal again.  <br /><br />As for Annoura, she first thumbs her fingers when she met Rand and the Asha'man at Colaveare's &quot;dethroning&quot;.  Then she does it again when meeting Cadsuane.  Even Merana thought it was unusual.  Now it might just be a nervous gesture, or she might have been looking for allies in dangerous situations.  Plus, when Cadsuane asks Merana and Annoura if they had anything to do with the vileness after the Aiel War (probably the BA hunting for the infant DR and the &quot;deaths&quot; in the Tower) Merana is just confused but the &quot;accusing glare hit Annoura so hard, she almost fell off the bed.&quot;  I'm starting to believe she is BA.  Anyone have any quotes to support or contradict this idea?


created: 2002-02-28 16:12:32
subject: <b>Just something</b>
body:
There was another Black Ajah agent in the Great Hunt prologue.  Liandrin was part of the Amyrlin's entourage, and why not Annoura as well?  And she also provided Chesa for Egwene, who is the only servant left.  Also, she is described as motherly, which would be ironic if she was the one beating Sheriam.  However, I tend to that that Sheriam's master and Isam's patron are the one and the same.


created: 2002-07-11 22:10:45
subject: <b>Could be....</b>
body:
I agree that Annoura has been behaving suspiciously. She is probably BA, and perhaps is pretending to follow along with Cadsuane as well. Especially after Cadsuane spoke so approvingly of the way Annoura had made no decisions about Rand yet. The way she makes things worse for Perrin and ensures he wastes a lot of time over Berelain shows this.<br /><br />BTW, just a few words about the previous post. Sheriam provided Chesa for Egwene and Annaiya is the motherly one in Salidar.  Annoura has never been in Salidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 13:51:29
subject: <b>The mistaken sign</b>
body:
When Annoura rubs her thumbs with her forefingers, she is not giving the sign for the black ajah.  It is merely a nervous habit.  It is unusual for a gray to exibit her nerves in that way, but maybe thats why she was the advisor in a nothing little country like Mayene.  The sign for the black ajah, as exibited by Halima in LoC, was the thumb thrust through the first two fingers.


created: 2002-02-18 21:20:42
subject:
<b>THANK YOU!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Thank you! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />Finally, someone said it! I always thought the whole culling-thing was flawed. Many failed to also realize/remember that the percentage of people born with the spark is *a lot* lower than those who can learn (I believe it says that in the White Book). So sure the Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> got the Sparkies (hehehe... made that up myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) but missed all those guys who were Learners. <br /><br />Well, anyway, excellent theory! Good job! and again thank you! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 00:22:40
subject: <b>Aes Sedai only catching 'sparkers'</b>
body:
Aes Sedai only have been catching those with the spark who'd channel regardless. The bulk of the black tower are those that can learn. Taim points out Narishma as one with the spark back in LOC when the BT already has a couple of dozen or more members. While channelers are more likely to have channeling children then the average person it says nothing about strength. One can make the assumption though that the stronger channelers (on average) have strong channeling children. Those with the spark are stronger then those without, so the stronger channelers have either been gentled or become Aes Sedai. <br /><br />The number of male channelers caught has diminished and the red ajah certainly hasn't stopped looking hard for them. <br /><br />We've seen where a population centre (the two rivers) is left alone the number and strength of channelers is much greater then the norm (Verin's POV on the females, Taim's 'surprising numbers' find for the males). The interesting case to see would be the Sharans - other cultures have killed/gentled or with the Aiel committed virtual suicide the male channelers, where as they breed them. They should have the highest percentage and strongest channelers of all.


created: 2002-02-19 08:44:21
subject: <b>hey</b>
body:
could one of you five percent who disagree please place i post telling me why im wrong. i am truly interested.<br />


created: 2002-02-19 11:06:56
subject: <b>Here's one thought...</b>
body:
While I'm not one of the ones who disagrees, I have another option. Since the Breaking, channelers have been getting, on the whole, weaker. Maybe the &quot;culling&quot; takes the form of diminishing strength in the Power. <br /><br />You could explain the larger amount of strong channelers (Rand, Elayne, Egwewe, Nynaeve, Logain, etc.) with the fact that they are living at the end of an Age, and the Pattern is churning out people who can greatly affect the situation.<br /><br />One thing to consider, however, is that the only benchmark we really have from the AoL in regards to strength in the Power is the Chosen. They kind of wreck the curve, since they were among the most powerful in a time of power. However, their knowledge skews things a bit. They can do things that most channelers have never even conceived of as possible.<br /><br />Like you, I'm anxiously awaiting the entrance of the Sharans. Since they breed their channelers (if what we know is true), they should be a deciding factor in the culling theories.


created: 2002-02-19 11:18:44
subject: <b>Disagreement</b>
body:
I don't think it's the hunting down of male cahnnelers that is culling the ability, I think it's the fact that none of the Aes Sedai ever have children.<br /><br />Think about it.  Most women who can channel join up in the tower (at least that is how it's portrayed).  Definitely those with the spark.  But once in the tower, they aren't concerned with child-bearing.<br /><br />Seanchan, on the other hand, have their damane breed (I'm pretty sure I remember something like this).<br /><br />Anyway, that's kind of the idea.  I think that Cadsuanne actually said this to the White Ajah at one point, and they got all upset about it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 12:12:17
subject: <b>I strongly disagree.....</b>
body:
As has already been pointed out, the searching is focused on those born with the spark, who will channel whether they want to or not.  That the Aes Sedai actively seek out such girls is plainly stated by Moiraine in TEOTW.  Searching out females who are capable of learning how to channel would mean testing every teenage girl in every city, town and village.  The only ones who do that are the Seanchan, and they screw it up by identifying those who can learn as sul'dams.  No one tested for men who could learn at all until the Black Tower was set up.  How do we know?  Obviously, it requires a male channeler to test for those who can learn.  Until Taim showed Rand how, there was no one who could.  (who taught Taim....another question)  So the gentling of men with the inborn spark might be culling that trait, hence less novices found until formerly untilled ground like the Two Rivers is included.  Finally, don't forget that the Pattern provides what The Dragon needs.  The sudden appearance of so many channelers could be a statistical anomaly spun out to meet ta'vern needs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 20:04:11
subject: <b>Seanchan channeling detection</b>
body:
In one of the earlier books - maybe TGH? - isn't there a line about the Seanchan being surprised by the number of marath'damane they've got for the number tested ? The Seanchan have plenty of channelers, but by testing the most effectively I'm sure they'd have less per capita then the other lands. It's just the Seanchan continent is larger then the main area of the main continent.


created: 2002-02-20 17:53:24
subject: <b>impossible</b>
body:
It's impossible for the WA's theory to be true.  <br />Everything that was stated before, plus:<br /><br />The Seanchan kill off the men channelers, but only when they can be found... they might still have children<br /><br />The people that Jordan has talked only about twice very briefly  kill off the men after they reach 21.  They are only allowed to have children with women who can channel.<br />--- the bloodlines continue<br /><br />there haven't been enough men channelers killed off in the past 3000+ years to do any damage to the gene pool, and the ability of people to channel<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 23:39:12
subject: <b>Agree and Disagree</b>
body:
I like the theory, but I don't think that it is quite as simple as an actual culling of the channeling ability.  As has been pointed out it is more probably the fact that Aes Sedai don't have children that is really behind the drop in numbers.  Also every man born with the spark is found and genteled (or dies).<br /><br />The ability to channel seems to be a dominate trait.  Because of that it is unlikely that the trait can be totally wiped out.  However, just because the trait won't die out doesn't mean that successive generations won't get weaker.<br /><br />People with the spark inborn seem to be much stronger then those without.  If a woman has the spark inborn the chances are that the Tower will find her, and because of her potiental will more than likely become an Aes Sedai.  That means no kids, so her strength won't be passed on to the next generation.  If she isn't found by the Tower then there is a 75% chance of her dying at an age usually too young to have children.  That small group left is not enough propogate future generations of strong channelers.  If a man is born with the spark the chances are that he will die before having any children.  Even if the Aes Sedai don't get him the madness would probably keep him from having solid relationship with a woman.<br /><br />So while I don't think that they are actually culling the ability to channel out of people, I do think that they are reducing the strength of those who have the ability.  Basically this is why I both agree and disagree with the theory.


created: 2002-02-22 02:51:29
subject: <b>Yup</b>
body:
I have always thought that one of the main reasons the channeling ability was being 'culled' (if it is) is that the Aes Sedai don't have children. They're living in a convent for goodness sake. Have a little fun already.<br /><br />Thanks for posting your theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-22 07:36:02
subject: <b>Channeling IS genetic, isn&#180;t it?</b>
body:
That talk abot &quot;culling&quot; is just stupid. If channeling is genetic, which i belive it is, then gentling someone won&#180;t remove the channeling gene, because if it does, gentling can&#180;t be healed, because when Nynaeve heals Logain, she does&#180;nt re-create the channeling gene, she just replaces his &quot;link&quot; to the source. <br /><br />Just wanted to make my voice heard.


created: 2002-02-22 19:28:35
subject: <b>Yes, channeling is genetic</b>
body:
You're right, gentling doesn't remove the channeling gene, but if a man is gentled, he likely won't marry and have kids to pass on that gene. That's where the 'culling' comes in.


created: 2002-02-23 04:32:46
subject: <b>For more proof...</b>
body:
...look at the size of the White Tower.<br /><br />When it was built, most likely the creators (some of who remembered the AoL) had it built to hold what they thought would hold all the female channellers in the land.  They would have a pretty accurate idea of how many there would be since all channellers were found in the AoL.  <br /><br />We know that that White T. is just under 1/4 full in tDR.  Throw in the Kin and the WT is almost 3/4 full.  Include wilders (wisdoms, healers, etc.), women who have died learning to channel (the 3 in 4 wilders), and other channeller deaths and the WT is essentially full, or most likely, overflowing.<br /><br />As for the reason why Emond's Field has so many channellers, I doubt it's because they've been left alone.  I would bet that it's due to the effects of not one, but three ta'veren growing up there.  They may not have been full-fledged ta'veren all their lives, but I'm sure it must have rubbed off a little and effected chance just a little.


created: 2002-02-24 18:11:18
subject: <b>Uh, NO</b>
body:
You boviously know very little about genetics.  We have been told by RJ himself that channelling is a recessive gene.  EVEN IF YOU LEAVE ALL THE MALE CHANNELLERS ALONE AND LET THEM REPRODUCE TAKING OUT THE WOMEN WILL STILL CULL THE ABILITY.  That is why in places like the Aiel waste where females channellers have babies there is a larger percentage or women who can channel.  But in the mainland where Aes Sedai drasticly lower the amount of female channellers who will reproduce there is a much lower amount of women who can channel, AND men who can channel.  While the Aes Sedai will never completely cull the ability they are sure doing a good job at it.


created: 2002-02-25 00:15:20
subject: <b>in response to priest</b>
body:
you OBVIOUSLY didnt read the theory. i said nowhere that it wasnt possible to cull the the ability out of society, only that it wasnt happening. no mention of genetics. the number of aes sedai who arnt having children is still just a small part of the female channeling population.<br /><br />1. we know that the kin have aprox. twice the number of channelers as does the white tower. remember how shocked the aes sedai in ebu dar were when they found out the number of kin there were. that skews the white ajahs numbers right there. we also know that the majority of them lead normal lives. they do marry and they do have children.<br /><br />2. in falme and in ghealdea we know there are large untapped populations of  channelers. seeing as there were several aes sedai captured by the seanchan when falme fell we know this is not because of isolation like in the two rivers. and these are very small areas of the westlands.<br /><br />3. very few of the women who do go to the tower that can actually channel make it to the shawl. most of the sub-aes sedai channelers in the tower are sent away because they are to weak in the power or to weak mentally to cut it as aes sedai. we know the kin do not snatch up all of or even the majority of women sent away in this fashion and one can assume they go on to lead normal lives, i.e. marrying and having children.<br /><br />4. the aiel argument is just plain ridiculous. we do not know the percentage of channelers to non channelers in the waste and we wouldnt even be having this argument if we knew the percentage of the westland population that could channel. all we know is the number of aes sedai, who, for reasons stated above are only a few of the possible channelers. the only percentage of the channeling population<br />we know anything about is the white towers, who, due to the taboo of going to the tower explained in the theory, is very small.<br /><br />so in the future, before you off-handedly dismiss a theory, try fighting off the A.D.D. and actually reading it.


created: 2002-02-25 13:40:43
subject: <b>Aeil Channellers</b>
body:
We do not know exact numbers but it is easy to figure out that they have a larger percentage of channellers.  For one thier base population is smaller then that of the mainland, i think even considerably smaller.  If i remember correcttly the shaido alone had around 100 wise women who can channel.  THat is one of 12 clans.  That gives us 1200 channellers to begin.  THen there are all the aprentices who have not become wise ones yet.  From what we can tell lets say half that wiseones have an apprentice.  That gives us 1800 female chanellers almost twice that of the white tower from a much smaller population.


created: 2002-02-28 07:38:19
subject: <b>Aes Sedai babies?</b>
body:
What would happen if a Green Sister, for example, would find herself with child? Would she leave the Tower, or would she make an abortion? According to Min, channeling doesn't effect chance of becoming pregnant, since both Elayne and Aviendha will have children. <br />This is perhaps a little side-note, but I'm curious...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Anyone?


created: 2002-03-01 04:58:03
subject: <b>Pregnant Warders?</b>
body:
I just wonder how the warders would take it. Would they start having cravings or, heaven forbid, be moody?


created: 2002-07-15 02:26:47
subject: <b>Agree and disagree</b>
body:
I really quite like this theory and it all makes sense, but I would like to make a few points that may be against it:<br /><br />1) Is there any evidence that 'culling' has occured?<br />      - Aes Sedi numbers are down implying culling (but this could be explained by bad recruiting)<br />      - The numbers of kin, wise ones, windfinders, etc may be going up in compensation (remember the kin are relatively recent, and in the AOL the Aiel and Seafolk gene-pools would have been going to Aes Sedi - as those cultures seperated they started to keep their channelers)<br />      - Large numbers of Ashamen were gathered pretty fast (but ... ta'vern)<br />So at the moment evidence suggests that there is not a decrease in the population - but I think there was a decrease, and now the pattern is weaving channelers into the world in large numbers in preparation for Rand&amp;Co. (back to previous AOL numbers)<br /><br />2) It was stated that the Aes Sedi were not efficient at gathering men who could channel, BUT...<br />      - The stats quoted were for recent times, it may have been much bigger at the start (in fact the very fact that fewer men are being gentled is the reason the White Ajah believe in the culling - which implies that larger numbers were gentled previously)<br />      - Culling does not need to be via Aes Sedi - the taint itself is culling the male channelers by removing them from the gene-pool (going mad will reduce the number of children, or at the very least it will reduce the 'fitness' of his children by reducing the number of care-givers - any stats on single parent families in the WOT?)<br />      - The White Ajah think it is true, and they are meant to be very logical AND they have access to information and stats that we do not<br />So I think there is evidence that culling has occured<br /><br />Point to note - it is very hard to cull a recessive trait, especially one without full penetrance (Aes Sedi x Male channeler doesn't always give 100% channeling offspring), so any culling would occur extremely slowely, and I wouldn't expect a trait such as this to be eradicated in only 3000 years (from a biologists point of view)<br />Another point - did AOL Aes Sedi breed as rare as current Aes Sedi do now? I think probably - as people in the higher socio-economic bracket usually have less offspring, and Aes Sedi would definately count as high social class. Therefore, why does the trait even exist - if you can channel, you have less offspring, and are therefore less 'fit' (even if you live for hundreds of years and are powerful, biologically you are less fit). Now if this has been happening forever, the trait should be gone. Unless, carriers of the channeling gene (who cannot channel) have some type of genetic advantage, to compenstate (ie sickle cell anaemia carriers are protected against malaria). So maybe the parents of channelers (ie carriers) that cannot channel have some type of connection to the one power - makes them a bit fitter (making the gene an advantage), but offspring with two does may have enough of a connection to the one power that they can channel, making them unfit (less kids).<br />Thats all.<br /><br />


created: 2002-08-23 01:23:47
subject: <b>Two Rivers Men</b>
body:
I don't know if this has been addressed somewhere else, but something has been bothering me since The Eye of the World.  If the Two Rivers has an unusually high percentage of channellers, why haven't we heard about Two Rivers men  born with the spark going mad and such?


created: 2002-09-09 05:53:09
subject: <b>LTT and Ilyena</b>
body:
In response to Adrian's last paragraph-<br /><br />If you recall, in the AOL the Aes Sedai lived for several hundred years.  Also, and I may be recalling incorrectly, but I believe that LTT and Ilyena had about a dozen kids, and that was just the ones living with them!  So while your idea could be correct for present day WOT, in the AOL channellers who bred together (I know it's crude) were reinforcing their lines, making more channellers, and making them stronger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 05:59:59
subject: <b>A few points</b>
body:
First off the kin do not have kids, it is against thir rule.  They have too many secrets and move around too much to be saddled with a husband and children.<br /><br />Secondly, the Aiel and the sea folk populations are compleatly seperate and can not realy be considered when disscussing the idea, from an aeis sedai point of view, those populations might as well not exist.  <br /><br />And finaly, even if it's not universal, or very efficient, if you accept that channeling is genetic then removing cannelers from the gene pool must be a form of culling.  And you can't argue with that... well actually you could, and somebody probably will, if just out of spite and pig headdedness.


created: 2003-07-19 21:17:30
subject: <b>Ok</b>
body:
Ok, I think that it is a little bit of both.  I mean, if the Aes Sedai took teh time to really look for channelers the way the BT does, they would have many many more.  I also think it has something to do with the fact that none of the Aes Sedai are having kids, and that none of the men are because they all die of being gentled.  I mean, look at how many Aes Sedai there were in the Age of Legends, and those were just with the spark, Rand saw that in the columns of Rhuidean.  So, while I agree with your theory, and am grateful that someone finally said it (or that I finally read it somewhere, lol) I must say that I agree with the culling theory as well.  I did pick the thumbs up, though, so there you go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-18 04:40:52
subject: <b>The Real way to cull channeling</b>
body:
Genteling a dude here and there will never elimate all channelers.<br /><br />The real way to cull cannelers out of the human race would be if the AS actually did their homework and gathered in all the wonmen channelers everywhere.  This, coupled with the AS celibacy (or at least no kids) tradition would eliminate 90 to 99% of channelers in one channeling generation.  Over 3000 yrs this would eliminate channeling altogether.  <br /><br />So we, and the Aes Sedai, should thank our lucky stars that they have not been gathering all the women who can channel.<br /><br />And stemming from that line of thought we can infer that if sul'dam also remain childless then the Seanchan should run out of cannelers quickly or should have a while ago.<br /><br />The Sea Folk and the Aiel are the ones who got the channeling formula right.


created: 2006-06-11 12:23:58
subject: <b>the seanchan didnt kill all the male channelers</b>
body:
The seanchan have not killed all male channelers only male channelers with the spark. They do not even know that some people can be taught hence the use of damane and suldam, (damane having the spark and suldam being able to be taught just to clarify.) The only male channelers that they could find would be the ones with the spark as there would be noone to teach males without it.


created: 2007-03-18 21:19:11
subject: <b>Evolution</b>
body:
I totally agree, but would like to add another point.<br /><br />Male channelers with the spark usually have their ability manifest in their late teens to early twenties right? How much longer might it take for the madness to take hold in the approximate quarter of those who survive, maybe a few years? The other 3/4 of male channelers with the spark would probably take a few years to die from the sickness. Taking all this into acount, most channelers with the spark (the only men  gentled by the WT, A.B.) would be 18 - 26 before they're taken by the sickness, declared Dragons or go mad, plenty of time for them to get married and have kids right?<br /><br />The theory of survival of the fittest dictates that if something doesn't affect one's odds of getting some, like a latent channeling ability (when most children are had in the early tweens in the Westlands), then the percentage of the population with the spark gene, let alone the simple channeling gene, would remain about the same.<br /><br />BTW do false Dragons get a lot? That could counteract the fairly early age at which most male channelers with the spark would die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2008-03-19 00:01:38
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
that channeling is a recesive gene, and people born with the spark have  genotypes like rr, whereas being able to learn is Rr. just a thought. with the thing about stuff like hair colour. co-dominance or something. can't remember the term. Like...you dad has black hair, your mum has blonde hair, you have brown hair.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-15 14:08:16
subject: <b>Most channelers are not Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Even in the Westlands, most channelers or potential channelers are not Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai don't find all that many; most places may not be quite as isolated as the Two Rivers but even in fairly large towns like, say, Whitebridge, it's unusual for an Aes Sedai to visit, and remember that in an agrarian society like theirs, most people don't live in towns at all but rather on farms near some backwater village. If you're herding sheep in the ass end of Ghealdan, you're never going to see an Aes Sedai in your entire life.<br /><br />Some percentage of girls decide to run off and join the Aes Sedai, some few are wilders who somehow come to the Tower's attention (f'rinstance, it's apparently normal, according to Siuan, for Tairens to be bundled off to the Tower as soon as anyone finds out they can channel), and probably some areas are thick enough with Aes Sedai that girls get tested on occasion (maybe in the Borderlands, for instance, where Aes Sedai are well-respected.)<br /><br />But most get ignored. We know, for instance, that the Aes Sedai have traditionally refused to train anyone over maybe 20ish. Undoubtedly numerous girls with the spark end up dying, as has happened in the Two Rivers. And for the rest, it's clear that a specific social role exists for channelers, even if they're not aware that they're channeling. Most girls with special talents end up becoming Wisdoms, or Readers, or Wise-women, or whatever they're called -- in fact, it's EXPECTED for Wisdoms to be able to &quot;listen to the wind&quot;, and given the master-apprentice relationship we see between Nynaeve and Egwene, it seems clear that in some primitive way they even teach the ability to do certain tricks with the tower.<br /><br />So generalizing from the number of Aes Sedai to the prevalence of channeling in the population is probably impossible. The Tower's social milieu -- the popularity of Aes Sedai in any given country, and so forth -- is a far more important thing in determining their numbers, given that they make little to no effort to seek channelers out. Since the great majority of girls who could potentially become Aes Sedai don't, and since there's no reason to think a constant percentage of them end up in the tower, there's just no reason to extrapolate at all from the number of Aes Sedai to the prevalence of channeling ability.


created: 2008-11-12 13:19:10
subject: <b>Gentling</b>
body:
I pretty much agree.<br /><br />A point I think you missed, however, is the fact that Aes Sedai would only capture and gentle male wilders.<br /><br />It's frequently mentioned in the books that only about one in four women survive the spark to become wilders.  If that figure holds true for men, then there could be a mess of children out there carrying the gene who had their daddies die screaming from a mysterious &quot;illness&quot;.<br /><br />If those little boys and girls don't ever manifest a spark themselves, (i.e. they're learners or non channeling gene carriers) they could still pass on the gene to later generations and have either learner or sparker channeling descendants.<br /><br />With that fact figured in, one could assume the population of people formally channeling could be dwindling while the population of potential channelers could remain stable.  <br /><br />The Aes Sedai would only remove a relatively small number of people from the gene pool by sequestering a few thousand women and offing only around a dozen men every decade.


created: 2002-02-18 18:25:53
subject: <b>I highly doubt...</b>
body:
...that Rand won't be (conciously) present for the whole book. I do however agree that he won't be back for maybe 2/3 of it. After all, Jordan did make a note of mentioning that the Aes Sedai and Asha'man have no idea when Nynaeve and Rand would wake up.<br /><br />Also we know that the Black Tower is going to split into a bloody conflict between Logain and Taim's factions. The only way I can see Rand not getting involved in this is if he doesn't know it's going on. Although the Black Tower and the White Tower splits both being concluded in the next book seems a bit unlikely and the White Tower seems certain.<br /><br />It's about time Nynaeve missed a book too! Moiraine, Lan, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, Min, Faile...they've all missed at least a good portion of ab book, all except Nynaeve. Actualy now I think about it I'm not sure whether Thom's missed that much of a book...but he did miss a lot of time between his disappearence in EotW and the Great Hunt.


created: 2002-02-18 20:20:55
subject: <b>I anticipate</b>
body:
Thirteen books because 13 is such a significant number in the series. <br /><br />I also suspect that Rand will spend a lot of time out, but he'll be back eventually.  An interesting idea, here:  I've wondered how Rand could come to trust Logain.  If Logain won the BT power struggle and then came to Rand, found Rand unconcious, and didn't kill Rand for all that time, then perhaps (like in the case of Flinn and Narishma) Rand would come to trust Logain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 21:10:32
subject: <b>Timeline</b>
body:
A recent timeline on the FAQ site. You know the one that is STILL waiting to have a WH update. This site puts Perrin 19 days behind Rand and 16 behind Mat.<br /><br />Add to this that the BA purge in the WT progressed only one day in TPOD &amp; WH. The Logain/Taim saga must get more info before the 'rent' I think if Rand is unconscious for 2 0r 3 weeks and if Book 10 is the same timeline as TPOD &amp; WH then you could be right.<br /><br />Also note &quot;laughing Logain mounting a black stone and stepping over Rand on a funeral pyre&quot;. This suggests that Rand will be comatosed at the time of the 'rent'<br />


created: 2002-02-18 22:15:50
subject: <b>Post WH</b>
body:
By my reckoning WH has just made the situation worse, while Mat is only 4 or 5 days behind Rand, Perrin is a full 30 days behind the sheepherder.<br /><br />Luckily this doesn't necessarily mean the next book will focus on Perrin's storyline (which IMO is currently the most boring). This is because Perrin is currently chasing the Shaido and then he's meant to travel with Masema to wherever Rand is. That's a lot of travelling where only the odd day needs to be described, the rest will be too similar to mention. While Mat's storyline may well progress day by day, Perrin's can have a week's gap. After all, RJ has said that CoS and PoD only too place over a few days and the series would begin to spread out again, as it did in WH.<br /><br />Just from the foreshadowings, dreams and prophecies that we've managed to work out you can see just how many events RJ still has to get through...I can't imagine that he could get it done in less than 4 more books.


created: 2002-02-18 23:38:58
subject: <b>One chapter</b>
body:
I think you're right Rand will play a significantly reduced role in book 11, probably just one chapter.  If I'm remembering correctly the books where Perrin and Mat disappeared they were in a brief segment in the Prologue, so maybe we'll see that again.


created: 2002-02-19 05:48:55
subject: <b>hopefully</b>
body:
it'll be like tdr.  rand was in the beginning and the end but we only saw glimpses of him on the road to tear.<br /><br />perrin's thread is very boring but it needs to be resolved.<br /><br />and i really hope that the white tower conflict progresses...i was very annoyed with egwene's role in wh thru elayne's pov, which was several days behind egwene's, meaning that nothing new happened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 07:11:39
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
a lot of people are confused with the White Tower rebellion storyline. They seem to think that Egwene has been sitting around for a book, which of course would be totally unrealistic. The truth is that Egwene's storyline in PoD was miles ahead of others. In fact, they only Travel to Tar Valon the same day that Rand tells Alanna to go to Cairhien and Elayne hears about the four armies approaching. She's 5 days behind Rand.


created: 2002-02-19 09:40:57
subject: <b>Current Timeline</b>
body:
It was mentioned above, is there a current timeline anywhere? I do feel that Rand literally had more time spent on him in the last book. Does anyone know exactly where &quot;Time&quot; stands as of Winter's Heart? <br />I think we won't see Rand, aside from maybe in the prologue, conscious and active until Perrin's and Mat's timeline get closer, if not completly caught up, to Rand's. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> (who is this?)<br /><br />( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" />  = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> ) You wait and see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 10:25:50
subject: <b>Excellent Timeline here:</b>
body:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 11:38:04
subject: <b>Rand is the Dragon</b>
body:
Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He still has to unite the world - Shara, the Land of Madmen, Seanchean, the Ogier, the Sea-Folk and the &quot;Water Way&quot; people... and there's more to uniting a world than just ruling all of it. Rand is going to forge the 'milk of human kindness' between all those dumb squabbling children. That takes time.<br />Bad Ash doesn't like Rand ! (faints in shock!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 17:45:24
subject: <b>If Rand is left out.................</b>
body:
I'll KILLLLLLL RJ<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 18:49:27
subject: <b>If he is left out..</b>
body:
some of my co-religionists and I were discussing this right after reading WH.  He's unconscious the whole book, while Cadsuane, Min, Lan and co. are getting reports of all that's going on in the world, getting more and more worried, then Nynaeve wakes up in the last chapter, they check on Rand and find an empty bed, thus P!$$ing us off for two more years and a whole new theory post category is put on this site for &quot;where did Rand go?&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 22:42:50
subject: <b>Haha</b>
body:
That's be brilliant! How about some mumblings in his sleep, to give us extremely vague clues as to where he's gone?<br /><br />It'd be even better when talking to people who are only half way through the book:<br /><br />&quot;Does Rand wake up at all this book?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Sure he does!&quot;<br /><br />&lt;1 week later, final page&gt;<br /><br />&quot;That f-ing a-hole!&quot;


created: 2002-02-20 11:27:14
subject: <b>Rand Reunitng the World</b>
body:
In regard to Rand's having to reunite the whole world - the Sharan's have been mentioned several times. Didn't RJ say in an earlier interview that Shara would NOT play a role in the series?<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 20:55:19
subject: <b>about shara</b>
body:
i dont remember RJ saying anything about it other than RAFO but i do think from certain hints that it has to come into play at sometime. there's the aiel telling us early on that the sharans are asking about the dragon reborn. one of the women forsaken, i think semirhage, is actually hiding there. and im not sure, but i vaguely (sp) remember said forsaken saying something at one of the dream world meetings about it not being time to bring that culture into the mix yet. if anyone knows anything about this meeting im thinking of please let us know where its at in the books.


created: 2002-02-21 08:39:58
subject: <b>Symetry</b>
body:
I think Rand may be left out totaly. I have been waiting for him to be left out for awhile now. He's my favorite character but I don't think he'll be there in 10. Jordan ADORES symetry in his stories and Mat and Perrin had to take time off the stage so Rand probably will too just for the sake of keeping everything balanced.


created: 2002-02-21 18:12:06
subject: <b>Rand</b>
body:
has already been taken out, not completely (he is the main character), but he was drastically reduced for much of tDR.<br /><br />Semirhage is with the Seanchan and in the Westlands, not Shara in any way.


created: 2002-02-21 23:54:12
subject: <b>Time for other storylines</b>
body:
I think Rand will be in it, but only breifly. I've seen talk on this site of him being taken to the Two Rivers to recuperate and learn all the things he has to learn from Cadsuane. This seems, to me at least, a likely scenario, but with RJ likley scenarios aren't always the real scenarios. Jordan just has to find time to bring some type of closure to at least some of the things he's got going on. Let's list them;<br /> 1. Faile rescued from the Shaido and all that entails with Morgase, Galad, Berelain, and the Prophet.<br /> 2. Mat leaving Ebu Dar and all that Seanchen craziness with Tuon, not to mention Semirhage.<br /> 3. Logain and the Black Tower Struggle<br /> 4. The white tower battle, which is a major one that will take a goodly chunk of the book<br /> 5. Elayne and her 4 mysterious armies, though I think Elayne is a good candidate for being shafted out of this book and we have to wait till book 11 to find out about the armies.<br /> That is a bunch of stuff to do even with leaving Elayne out. Rand will be there, just not that much, maybe just a chapter or two.


created: 2002-02-22 06:52:58
subject: <b>Ohoh</b>
body:
If Rand is indeed taken back to the Two Rivers, those who took him better be ready to face his wrath when he awakes, he will not be happy.<br /><br />I'm not sure if Rand will end up in the Two Rivers in the next book. The only way I could ever see him going back (even after TG) would be under these sort of circumstances where he doesn't know he's going there. Not that I can think where he can go otherwise...Caemlyn would be my choice if Elayne had become Queen...Rhuidean I guess.


created: 2002-02-22 18:20:15
subject: <b>Gentled??</b>
body:
I think it entirely possible that r will be gentled or has already burned out in the next book.  He has been away a bit  &amp; may not know it can be healed.<br /><br />He would go away in a  Paul Atreides style move.  He will be found as eg a beggar in the streets &amp; healed by Flinn or whoever does the healing (or Nynaeve of course).


created: 2002-02-24 17:05:47
subject: <b>Just an idea..</b>
body:
Just an idea, but what if RAND doesn't wake up in book ten but LT does?  What if LT takes control of Rand's body?  He has tried before.  While Rand is unconscious LT steps in and takes over his body.  The amount of OP that Rand channeled through the Choedan Kal exhausted him enough that he is unable to fight LT off.  It has been mentioned a couple of times that when Rand is tired and LT grabs for saidin, Rand can barely fight him off and stay in control.  While Rand is unconscious is the perfect time for LT to step in.  No one to fight him off.<br />    This could even pertain to Min's viewings of Rand and LT touching, although it doesn't sound good for her part about one of them dieing.  <br />    I don't really think that it will happen but it would be quite interesting.


created: 2002-04-08 23:20:06
subject: <b>Missing Rand? I like!</b>
body:
Just a quick mention to that last comment: Egwene and Perrin are the only ones who can go to T'A'R unaided, and that's when they're asleep, not unconscious/comatose. <br /><br />Rand entered it once, with the Power, everyone else needs to channel also--into their &lt;/I&gt;ter'angreal&lt;/I&gt;. It might be possible, but with Nynaeve asleep, I don't think anyone anywhere near Rand knows where that stone ring of Verin's is.<br /><br />Anyway, I kinda like the idea of Rand being unconscious for part of the book. According to that chronology link, everyone is about ten days or more behind Rand, and has some things left hanging they need to do. <br /><br />Faile must steal an Oath Rod before Perrin even gets there, then they both perhaps fight a running battle to get away from the Shaido.<br /><br />Egwene has a siege to begin (though why she doesn't just Travel into Elaida's quarters I don't know).<br /><br />Mat could have plenty of crazy escapades while escaping the Seanchan.<br /><br />If Mat heads north towards Perrin, and then finds Perrin and they both escape the Shaido by crossing a river, they'll be in the Two Rivers, near Shadar Logoth and the Tower of Ghenjei, then down the Caemlyn Road, past Tar Valon to Shienar and Malkier... Very EoTW, and they'd also grab everyone who needs to be at the Last Battle.


created: 2002-05-09 04:57:39
subject: <b>Rand missing in Bk 12</b>
body:
There are 3 ta'veren; the main players.  Jordan likes his symmetries.  Perrin absent in Bk 4.  Mat absent in Bk 8.  Rand absent in.....Bk 12!  I tend to think Rand will die at TG, be absent for a book, then come back and fix everything.  Maybe that's a bit simplistic, but I've been sitting on that idea since the end of Bk 8.  Of course, this means TG can't be far off, and there are lots of plots yet to wrap up, which is a problem, but it does balance nicely.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 19:44:44
subject: <b>keep him in..</b>
body:
It's probably just me, but Rand is my favorite character and I look forward to his parts.  I hope he's more &quot;center stage&quot; in this book than the others.  It is drawing closer to the end of the series and there still seems like a lot he has to do.  Plus, the book IS centered pretty much on him, so I doubt RJ will take him out for an entire book.  And RJ seems to be pretty predictable, so I seriously doubt it happening.


created: 2002-10-02 22:46:37
subject: <b>I hope not...</b>
body:
Rand is my favorite character! I hope he has a big role. If not Rand then Mat because Perrin's parts can get boring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jaszia K'Tinarth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />Lover of warders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Omnipotent Queen of the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 18:33:51
subject: <b>THINK.......ANYONE</b>
body:
Have you ever considered the title of this book.(without Rand) <br /><br />Crossroads of twilight.<br /><br />1.st: we have the shadow.<br />2.nd: anyone, please. The second evil, as everyone knows it's Fain. The taint at shadar logoth. <br /><br />If anyone tries to argue with me that Fain is trying to do anything that doesn't include taking Rand al'Thor out of the way.                Good Luck.......<br /><br />PS: Rand is not wery happy for Fains sake either. Something about trollocs at winternight. I think if he had the opportunity, he'd rather sewer Fains head.(with a wery nasty weave)


created: 2002-10-11 10:44:07
subject: <b>re: Gentled??</b>
body:
In &quot;Gentled??&quot; Sarah Blakeney wrote:&quot; I think it entirely possible that r will be gentled or has already burned out in the next book. He has been away a bit &amp; may not know it can be healed.<br /><br />He would go away in a Paul Atreides style move. He will be found as eg a beggar in the streets &amp; healed by Flinn or whoever does the healing (or Nynaeve of course). &quot;<br /><br />This makes sense to me. I've been hoping to see Rand skipped for a book (he's been annoying me a lot lately, especially the last two books), and I was thinking that it would be through some sort of staged death/disappearance of his (with Alivia's help). Rand would wander the world as a beggar, ala Paul Muadib Atreides style at the end of Dune Messiah and in Children of Dune.<br /><br />Of course, I belive that this will happen further down the road unless someone's idea (who posted that?) of Nynaeve waking up first then discovering Rand gone is how it works out.<br /><br />--imlad<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 20:07:10
subject: <b>dragonmount says</b>
body:
The review of CoT at dragonmount says that one of the three boys was missing but would not outright say who because that would be an out and out spoiler. However we know Mat is in it because of chapter one and they said we were going to see a whole new side of Perrin.


created: 2002-12-29 21:20:01
subject: <b>Spot on!!</b>
body:
I haven't read CoT yet, but from what i gather Rand is only in it for less than a chapter! (This is from ppl who have read it and said that on the CoT message thingo)<br /><br />Nice theory, it's been proved correct!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 19:03:29
subject: <b>Damn! You completely nailed it!</b>
body:
I'm very impressed with your prophetic skills! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ghenjei of the Tower<br /><br />&quot;I'm all theory and no action&quot;<br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 14:09:18
subject: <b>haha you were wrong</b>
body:
haha<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefire78 <br /> warder to Min farshaw<br />and Danea sedai and nynaeve mandragon<br /><br />ITS ONLY A FLESHWOUND!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 02:50:16
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
great theory.  I just read it today, but sometimes it's nice knowing you're right.  It made me laf.<br /><br />Just my $0.02<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 01:02:33
subject: <b>i dont know</b>
body:
i personaly think ishmeal was just using some of his fancy dream world knowledge to mess with rands head. he was trying to make rand &quot;realize&quot; (and i guess the other two because he was clueless at the time) that he was meant to serve the dark one, that it was his destiny al a &quot;Luke, i am your father&quot;


created: 2002-02-20 01:15:31
subject: <b>I take offense...</b>
body:
Ishy/Moridin is not insane, just misunderstood.  I'm sure he had a difficult childhood, and probably just needs a big hug.  Anyway, Narishma took Callandor out of the Heart of the Stone, which I think makes him &quot;he who comes after,&quot;  or something like that, so why couldn't he be the third face?  Maybe Rand will have to die and merge with him to live, since he must die to live, and end up some sort of combination like Luc/Isam.  I'm going to go find Moridin and start baby-talking to him now.


created: 2002-02-20 11:38:40
subject: <b>Regarding playing both sides of the board....</b>
body:
I think too much has been made of this remark.  It seems to me that very simply , Moridin is playing the Dark One's side and unbeknownst to Rand, he has been moving him (the Fisher) as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 12:35:05
subject: <b>It is not delusions of grandeur</b>
body:
if you really are that great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 14:46:41
subject: <b>Vast Majority?</b>
body:
Is there really a vast majority of people that think Rand will merge Luc/Isam style with someone? I'll be honest, the thought never entered my mind. Am I missing the glorious bandwagon here?<br /><br />Long Live Taimandred!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 15:51:08
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I was wondering where all these people are who think rand will merge with an Asha'man...hello? Is anybody there?


created: 2002-02-20 17:32:24
subject: <b>merging with ashaman....</b>
body:
sorry folks dont see it happening....a thought on the ishy/moridin/rand merger tho......perhaps Rand will become the next Ishy?  in a dead but bot really dead kinda way, like Ishy with the seals....He's learned a lot about TAR, and how many times, especially with the Aiel, have we heard him say that he makes new customs, perhaps he'll toss aside the Prescripts for heroes in TAR.........I know im gonna get flamed fot this one....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 16:20:52
subject: <b>Dark One</b>
body:
I keep having the feeling that the DO has to merge with the Dragon Reborn to get into Randland because he has no body of his own. If this would be true, you can make an analogy with the book series written by Tad Williams where the spirit of Ineluki has to take a body to get back into the real world.  This made Ineluki mortal &amp; he was killed. <br /><br />Now this could be the thing that happens during the Last Battle. The DO takes Rhand's body and he gets killed soon after, so the world is saved from the DO and Rhand blood is on the rocks of Shagol Ghul (Rhand's dead body).  Then Elayne,Avienda &amp; Nynaeve pull of some awesome trick with the power to save Rhand.. (the vision of the 3 ladies next to Rhand's dead body)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Belgium's best kept secret <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />!! vote for Wesley Clark !!<br /><br />give me a freeking job will ya!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 17:37:52
subject: <b>ishy/moridin?</b>
body:
I must be really dense.... But where does the reference of Ishy and Moridin being one and the same occur?<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-22 17:57:06
subject: <b>The merger has already happened.</b>
body:
It took place when moridin &amp; rand balefired eachother's balefire in Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Moridin has been going on ever since about how he is directing Rand's moves &amp; how he is playing both sides of the game (in his chess game).<br /><br />His is, I think, also the face Rand nearly recognises when he gets the colour swirls.


created: 2002-02-24 04:52:40
subject: <b>Ok.. Either I'm just really dumb or no one else sees this.</b>
body:
Rand is -ALREADY- merged with Lews Therin. Min said she saw two people merging, and only one survives. After that Lews Therin disappears for a while. Lews Therin tries to grab for Saidin, he takes control of Rand sometimes (like when he thumbs his ear when he sees Min), and Lews Therin has his memories in Rands head. Some people might say that's just because he is Lews Therin reborn, but think about it. Everyone is reborn. All the threads in the pattern are reused, but does everyone has their past lives in their head? No. Rand is already in a battle to stay himself, and if there was a third, wouldn't Min have viewed someone else merging too?


created: 2002-03-06 16:10:23
subject: <b>i GOT it!</b>
body:
Rand merges with......BELA!!!!!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 10:53:39
subject: <b>I agree, I think</b>
body:
I have been thinking this over myself. We know that Ba'alzamon = Ishy = Moridin.  Rand's problems with dizziness and the third face all come after he and the wanderer &quot;cross the streams&quot;.  (It is generally accepted that the wanderer was Moridin.)  During this event, doesn't Rand see the wanderer's face, blurred and indistinct?  I would argue that this is too big of a coincidence.  The &quot;crossing of the streams&quot; created somethink akin to a bond between Moridin and Rand - not a true bond, but an awareness.  I think that we may find that this will give Rand the edge he needs to win the Last Battle (this part is pure speculation.) <br /><br />Anyway, I think you're going down the right road, but we'll have to wait and see!


created: 2002-03-22 10:22:32
subject: <b>Herid Fel...</b>
body:
... Herid's theory, the one that got him killed, was that the wheel of time, the repeat of the cycle of history meant that the seal on the Dark ones tomb must have been broken into, sealed, remade as new before -Rand nearly understands that he has to get rid of the seals/patches in order to remake the prison - this means that this was done before. Who did it? Moridin tells us that it's the Fisher from his favourite board game - the third guy in Rand's head even further from him on the wheel than LTT so he's only starting to come to the fore now, with guess what insight on sealing the Bore? <br /><br />Well maybe...


created: 2002-04-21 09:01:16
subject: <b>The third face</b>
body:
I always thought that the third face that Rand sees was him from the first age.. I can't remember the exact words but it implyed that the 3 faces were Rand and LLT in another age im assuming this is the first age. I think its at the school in WH. In other places it also implys this.


created: 2002-04-28 16:43:07
subject: <b>Lews Therin</b>
body:
I don't understand all this giberish about Rand merging with Ash'aman or Logain or the DO or Ishy. As far as I am concerned Rand merging with Bela is just as valid. Rand has repeatedly said that Lews Therin is a seperate entity; their memories are &quot;leaking&quot; over into each other. The obvious and probably only option is that the two personalities in Rand's head merge, so that Rand gets all of his memories from the Age of Legends. This is especially propable now that saidin is gone, because Lews Therin's insanity mostly stems from the taint, and any remorse, etc will be a more managable and entertaining kind of story than madness by taint. <br /><br />Think people, Jordan's WoT is not a bizzare or modern tale like Steve King's Dark Tower, etc. It's more pure entertainment; none of these bizzare theories have proven true in the past, and they wont now either. Jordan will keep us guessing yes, but he's not going to go to these bizare extreems. And the man Rand sees is himself 3 Ages back, nothing more. And if not, it wont be any bizzare thing. It will make sense and not be strange. geez


created: 2002-07-28 19:49:58
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
Uh... perhaps Moridin meant he just had a hand in events for both shadow and light, after all the forsaken have infiltrated places in almost every 'light' institution therefore he would have some kind fo controlling guidance.


created: 2002-09-15 09:04:24
subject: <b>moridin</b>
body:
Moridin aka Ishammel aka lots of other names will definately merge with rand at some point. along with the theory posted rand and moridin semi - merged in the battle against sammuel in shadar logath. I think they are in fact one and the same person. i.e. lewis therin. it has been said in the books that lewis therin once was on the side of shadow. and this resulted in ishammel. They will both merge and rand will be left. He will have the knowledge of ishammel and his added power enough to help defeat the dark one...


created: 2002-09-19 12:23:57
subject: <b>Its Lews Therin...</b>
body:
I am glad I'm not the only one who goes &quot;Rand merge with an Asha'man????&quot; No I don't follow that at all..<br /><br />As for Rand merging with Ishy cos he dreamt it? No... Ishamael was messing with all three of the boys dreams to unsettle them, putting it mildly.<br /><br />I like Ragnarak's idea of the DO needing Rands body as this I think explains his seeming reluctance to order the Forsaken to kill Rand. And why would he want Rand's body? Isn't he the most powerful channeler there cos he's The Dragon Reborn? If you were the DO one would you want someone else running around more powerful.. think about it Channeler... the body has to Channel the power.<br /><br />Oh finally, not that I'm really adding much here, but yep in previous turnings Lews Therin has gone over to the Shadow - at least I remember reading that (it may have been spoken by a Forsaken though...) but I don't see how this lead to Ishamael? He was a philosopher who reasoned that in previous turnings LTT had succumbed to the dark side but I don't see how that leads to him being a result of that succumbing.. Maybe I've missed something.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> The Hutt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />The_Hutt<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those are brave men lets go kill them&quot; Tyrion Lannister</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 21:30:48
subject: <b>who merged (past) w/ rand</b>
body:
Frankly, Rand is not currently mentally battling with Ishamael.   It's been several books now that his battle w/ LTT for control of his mind has gone on.  Rand must win the battle or we have crazy LTT who wants to die in control of the fate of the world.  In addition, i may be misreading things, but i cannot remember a single time hearing that LTT is the recurring life.  The soul of the dragon is the immortal part.  The person is a vessel. Rand interacting with LTT is not him interacting with his soul. It's him interacting with the previous and only the previous vessel.  The moridin stuff sounds good - i think Rand and his relationship has a lot more development ahead of it - just nothing about merger. Perchance partnership. Nothing of merger of souls.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-03 06:28:39
subject: <b>Rand's death</b>
body:
I believe that this merging Luc/Isam style thing is a pile of BS. Given the basic &quot;live twice&quot; prophecy spouted out by Thom in tGH cerca. Ch 28, Rand has obviously got to die at Tarmon Gai'don, with the blood splattering on Shayol Ghul. This will give them the opportunity of putting Rand's essence in Narishma (who we know is He Who Follows After). Narishma/Rand goes on to defeat the Dark One and everyone is happy. Except Rand.<br /><br />&quot;A dark power is rising...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;A dark power is rising ... and it brought cookies!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 15:01:19
subject: <b>THE MAZE</b>
body:
Just a thought but has everyon forgotten about Nyn's first step into the ter'angrel to become an accepted? She also faced Ishy/Mord in ther in a maze. Just a thought on the original posters statement about the maze.


created: 2003-10-31 17:58:35
subject: <b>to Sarah Blakeney</b>
body:
just a response to the comment you made earlier<br /><br />I don't think that Rand has or even will merge with moridin<br />I think moridin always goes on about playing the board from both sides because hes been doing it for centuries <br /><br />Prime example: Artur Hawkwing. Ishy controlled practically his every step while still working for the shadows goals and no one had a clue because if they did AH wouldn't be the grand hero that he is he would have been the evil tyrant who allowed the forsaken to control him<br /><br />Moridin is simply doing what he has always done: setting himself up in a position to influence the ones in power and hes VERY good at it. He is NOT inside Rands head.<br /><br />Another thing the face that Rand almost recognizes when the colors swirl is Mat/Perrin. Thats obvious because they get the same thing and I believe it was Perrin who finally actually had an image come into focus because he was thinking specifically about Rand and he could see Rand and Nynaeve cleansing Saidin.<br /><br />The color swirling is some sort of link between the 3 so they can tell what each other are doing at all times<br /><br />And Remember the world DOES NOT rest on Rands shoulders like so many people believe it rests with all 3 of them the Triune of Rand Mat and Perrin will defeat the Dark One.<br />This has been an ongoing theme in the books and I don't understand why everyone seemingly ignores


created: 2004-08-10 02:49:48
subject: <b>Rand merged with Moridin?? I don't think so.</b>
body:
This concerns the theories about Rand merging with Moridin when fighting Sammael.<br />I always thought the other person here was Logain. It certainly explained a lot when he was at the black tower later on and already raised to the highest level with no mention of how he got there.<br />What quicker way to get to the top top than to save tthe bosses life?<br />I also seem to remember this being the same book where Egwene had Logain 'freed'. From where he was and given some of the skill he's shown with channeling, it wouldn't take much for him to sense those two fighting each other with their strength and Travel there. <br />The only other thought I had and which I dismissed, was that shadar ,logoth caused the two dragons to seperate temporarily. Not impossible if they can merge Fain and Mordeth, to unmerge Rand &amp; LTT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 02:12:58
subject: <b>HUH??</b>
body:
Ok, I admit you put a little time into this theory, but do you seriously believe what you wrote?? You DID read these books, right.  You had my attention until you threw in the Creator.  Maybe yer theory would make more since if, well... Maybe you thought Rahvin was going to make a come back or the possibly that Rand Al'Thor was one of Daenerys Targaryen's dragons made human! Get Real<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 09:31:49
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
It's an interesting thought.  I enjoyed reading it.  However, your theory is a bit too farfetched for me to believe it.  <br /><br />- Eriya <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-21 09:38:32
subject: <b>The colors</b>
body:
Isn't Perrin seeing them too?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-21 12:25:04
subject: <b>Interesting theory...</b>
body:
and very original, but it is based on what I think are several incorrect premises. First, the idea that the DO wants/needs to enter the pattern physically; second, that the Creator ever will enter the pattern physically; and third, that it is possible to kill the DO.<br /><br />First, isn't it true that the DO wants to destroy the wheel, thus freeing himself from the contraints of the pattern and ruling the universe. (Right now it appears that the wheel rules the universe, which is interesting if you accept the fact the the wheel does not have a consciousness.)<br /><br />Second, RJ has stated that the Creator does not, unequivocally, take part in the events of creation, but rather works through proxies such as the Dragon. There have been theories that this is because the Creator is in fact the DO's prison - I would need to give that more thought. Anyway, the creator inhabiting the body of a person in contrary to the gospel according the RJ.<br /><br />Third, it has never been indicated anywhere that it is possible to kill either the Creator or the DO. Apparently, the DO has been around since the beginning of time, going the the ages in endless repetition. Killing the DO would end that cycle, and then where would we be? Anyway, it is likely that sealing him back off in his prison is the best that Rand &amp; Co. will be able to do.<br /><br />All that said, keep thinking outside the box.<br /><br />Rob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 12:47:37
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
1) Nowhere does it say that Rand is a source (or half a source) of light. Indeed, when Masema talks of Rand as the source of light, Nymaeve is angry BECAUSE HE IS BlASPHEMING! Rand is just a very duty-bound human.<br />2) The Creator does not take a hand in events of the pattern. He just watches over.<br />3)The DO does not need a body to wreck chaos. He isn't free yet, and the tiny touch he has on the world is still enough to change weather, increase darkfriend activity, and change the landscape at Shayol Ghol. Morridin is a general, not a Statan-worshipper's &quot;honoured one&quot; or whatever they call it.<br />3) Mat is clueless. All three ta'veren are clueless. They are guided by Min, Egwene, Prophecies and Hopper. How will Mat piece this together on his own? Will Egwene say, okay, Mat, sweetheart, Rand is not to live. It is essential that you kill him. Mat will wonder if she's darkfriend, weep and take appropriate measures(ie tell Tuon/Faile, who will kill her).<br />4)The Creator did not turn up at the end of the Age of Legends. LTT did all the dirty work himself. Rand is the DRAGON REBORN! He will save the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 13:15:34
subject: <b>Sacrificial lamb</b>
body:
I think it is more likely that Rand will die willingly in a sort of attonement for the world's sins,especialy LLT's. He will probably bleed to death after surrendering to the forces of the DO. I expect he might even sing that rediculous leaf or tree or whatever song while he dies. Then he will be reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Breetai<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 16:08:57
subject: <b>rand the creators equal?</b>
body:
first of all, i find your fifty-fifty split in the imortance of rand and the creator a little off.  second, in your theory the creator isnt powerful enough to kill rand, who is only half trained as it is, while the dark one can just off mordin who has all the knowledge of the age of legends, without breaking a sweat.  another way you could look at this though is that the creator is good and it wouldnt be right to kill rand and take his body. so he'll just mat kill rand so the creator can then take his body, and that makes it ok. hmm. <br /><br />this theory reminded me of that lightfriend bening lesbians theory from a while back (great job on whoever did that one buy the way, i laughed my a$$ of and e-mailed left and right) in that it just makes things up to explaine the prophecies. no actual coralation to anything in the books.


created: 2002-02-21 16:49:42
subject: <b>daring, I approve</b>
body:
I don't agree with your theory but I really appreciate you going out on a limb and trying such a tough assignment, such as how the whole thing will end. I wish that more people would do that and stop thinking about the approval numbers of the thumbs. I am really tired of reading theories called &quot;stating the obvious&quot; or &quot;taimendred&quot; or &quot;there is a link between shadar and the black wind&quot; The purpose of this theory post is to throw out some new ideas. You don't have to believe everything you write, that said I think that the best theories are also well thought out and sound. So koodos to you good sir. May others follow your example.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />es mejor ser el mano derecho del diablo que estar en su camino<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I would rather be feared than loved


created: 2002-02-21 16:52:39
subject: <b>AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</b>
body:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That theory was just horrible. I'm trying to be nice, but I just  CAN'T! Why do these theories always have to be the &quot;Grand&quot; theory too?


created: 2002-02-21 18:18:53
subject: <b>Wow, that laughing really f-ed up the formatting</b>
body:
Others have said stuff about the theory so I won't say it again, but what did the colours have to do with anything?


created: 2002-02-21 18:41:43
subject: <b>Let's list the problems.</b>
body:
1. Perrin also sees the colors.<br />2. The dream about Perrin leading an army of wolves signifies that he is a Wolfbrother, not that he will ead the souls of dead wolves in the Last Battle.<br />3. Why would the Creator need to use LTT's knowledge of the Power? Are you saying that the guy who INVENTED the True Source doesn't know what to do with it?<br />4. Rand got the two Dragons on his arms to show that he is the Chief of Chiefs. He did not get them because one is him, and the other is Lews Therin; it is Rand's body, and when and if Lews Therin ever leaves, I doubt he'll try to take an arm, a hand, or any other part of Rand's body with him.<br />5. &quot;Mmmmmmkay&quot; is not a word.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 13:43:21
subject: <b>SH</b>
body:
If the DO has to take a physical body, I guess Shaidar &quot;I can bully the Forsaken anytime&quot; Haran would be a more likely vessel than Moridin or whoever is Nae'blis in the end - but I'm not convinced the DO will need to borrow a body anyway.<br /><br />As for the Creator, I find it extremely unlikely that he will ever take part actively in the fight, the Chosen One is his Champion instead.<br />


created: 2002-02-22 13:47:15
subject: <b>I'm lost</b>
body:
I don't understand his way of thinkin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />religious leader of elpimpos&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Bringer of useless things in tough times<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Forever friend of Fair Angel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 15:38:50
subject: <b>uhhh</b>
body:
I can bearly follow this theory.  Good for you for thinking this out, but I just can't support it.  It makes no sense and has no basis in the books.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 18:35:47
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Good for you, but no.  Well, maybe Perrin leading the wolves.<br /><br />Mat giving up half the light means he will sacrifice an eye.  RJ has given him the attributes of the Norse God Odin (2 ravens, hat, spear, hanged to gain knowledge, sacrifices an eye to gain wisdom).  The sacrifice will probably take place in Finnland while rescuing Moiraine, but there are other possibilities.<br /><br />Rand&#8217;s hand: RJ has given Rand, I believe, the attributes of the Norse god Tew or Tyr.  He loses his hand acting as surety while the other gods chain up the Fenris Wolf (son of the evil god Loki).  Fenris Wolf &amp; Loki are chained till Ragnaraok (the last battle).  This indicates to me Rand will lose the hand resealing one of the Forsaken in the bore.  Hey, maybe I should post this as a theory?


created: 2002-02-23 21:11:20
subject: <b>Mat s betrayal</b>
body:
Maqt screaming that he'd &quot;never betray you Rand! You must beleive me&quot; after the Portal stone with Verin. Thats the decision he'll have to make: friendship, which he values over all, and the good of the world. <br /> COOL THEORY<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 01:46:22
subject: <b>uhmmmm . . . no</b>
body:
Number one: The Creator NEVER takes a hand.<br />Number two: If the DO &amp; Creator ever come into direct confrontation, it would be really bad. That's why they use human surrogates.<br />Number three: Even ignoring the above mentioned points, I still think it's a little far fetched.


created: 2002-02-26 11:53:41
subject: <b>Hmm? I Always thought perrin was gonna kill Rand</b>
body:
But Matrim killin him is a new shock to the brain. But that would also be a simple and boring ending. RJ will probably(hopeing really) make the ending an entire book and then we will see all the forseeings and legend sort of things come true


created: 2002-03-06 19:06:04
subject: <b>So...</b>
body:
So what happens to (V)atrim Cauthon's eye? What about the vision by Egwene where (V)at weighs his eye on a balance? I think I'd rather go with (V)at losing his eye than (V)at killing Rand. I don't think he would anything so stupid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 10:12:33
subject: <b>The light of the world</b>
body:
One of the prophecies/dream sequences/archway visions shows Mat with an eye patch and another has his eye on a set of scales - one of MIn's earliest. So the light of the world is pretty definitely his eye - but you've just given me a thought.<br /><br />Moridin's chess piece the fisher has a bandage around his eyes - like he's been blinded. Can Mat end up giving Rand one of his eyes to cure his blindness and save the world?


created: 2002-05-28 23:20:02
subject: <b>B.S.</b>
body:
Not on a cold day in heck. Does anyone else remember the quote, assumingly from the Creator: &quot;I WILL TAKE NO PART.&quot; I'll run you all by a little philosophy lesson here. The Creator created the world. Easy to understand that, right? Okay. Next point. The Creator doesn't interfere in the weaving of the Wheel. He sits back with his popcorn and coke and watches the never-ending screenplay that is the turnings of the Wheel. &quot;The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.&quot; Interfering in the turnings of the Wheel is evil. The Creator will take no part in the Last Battle. Rand will fight it on his own. About the only thing I think you got right in this theory was that Rand will die. Sorry, but you can shove this theory through your anus and let it rot inside your rectum for all eternity.<br /><br />Sincerely, The Dragon Lews TheRIN<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 18:39:21
subject: <b>o boy</b>
body:
I have two things to say...no matter what anybody says...no matter what 'proof' is given...Rand al'Thor is going to die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die...anyways get my point? Rand's going to die. Secondly...I really really really really really really really really can't wait for RJ to finish the series so that all of these multitude of plots will be over and we can finally find out what is going to happen instead of banging our heads on walls trying to find the answer...or like a few of us...planning RJs kidnapping and torturing him until he tells you just exactly what's going to happen. Don't get me wrong...I love the series and all and I love reading about all the different theories that people have...but it is all so stressing just waiting don't you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aquaria<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-18 16:06:46
subject: <b>I agree with one part</b>
body:
I've been saying for several years now that Mat will have to betray Rand (remember back in TGH after Rand's use of the Portal Stone to take them all to Falme; he kept telling Rand &quot;I'll never betray you&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> by killing him.<br /><br />Everyone seems to take what the *elfinn said about giving up half the light of the world to mean his loss of an eye. Although I too believe Mat will loose an eye (he has to; he is RJ's Odin image, from being hung from the tree of life to gain knowledge to his constant companions of ravens--on his ashanderei), I believe that Mat's giving up half the light refers to killing Rand (who is half the light, with the Creator being the other half; or it could be LTT that is the other half). Mat is the only person I think that WOULD be able to defeat Rand after Rand becomes Naeblis. The OP can't touch him, and RJ favors a staff wielder over a swordsman.<br /><br />--imlad<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-01 00:37:49
subject: <b>Belgariad</b>
body:
Has anyone ever read the series called the Belgariad.  This theory for some reason strongly reminds me of the ending of that series.  It's not exactly like it but pretty close.


created: 2005-02-18 11:20:42
subject: <b>HAHAHAHA</b>
body:
It is just so FUNNY!!!<br />You really must be kidding me; you actually mean that the CREATOR doesn&#8217;t know how to use the OP! He made IT!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat <br />John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the US Navy, 1981-1987 <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 02:34:42
subject: <b>I thought so too, but&#8230;</b>
body:
I noticed that reference to hewing through brambles at Dumai's Wells too and thought that was what the dream meant. I mean, hacking through countless Aiel, Younglings and Aes Sedai without a real plan to rescue Rand - how much more of a cliff do you need? But in PoD at the begining of Stronger Than Written Law, Egwene has the same dream of Perrin and Aram hacking through brambles. Why would she continue to have that dream if Perrin has already fulfilled it? And why is Aram always with him? He wasn't really important at Dumai's Wells. I don't know why RJ made such an obvious reference to brambles at DW. I assume this is one of the instances that Perrin has to be near Rand in order to save him, so perhaps the second situation will also have reference to hewing through people like brambles to save Rand.


created: 2002-02-22 02:39:34
subject: <b>Think about it</b>
body:
it is truly horrify, the whole dumai wells scene, yes it's a great read, and you can't put the book down, but they are running though a mass of people killing like mad to get to Rand, sounds half ass like this one could have come true? (Prophesy) <br /><br />You have Perrin, who hats to use his Axe, Loial, who also doesn&#8217;t like to kill, and Aram, a tinker who used to be of the Leaf, maybe this is metaphor about the closer Aram gets, the more danger Perrin is in, personally I don&#8217;t believe it, but it fits too, 3 people together who don&#8217;t like to do violence (cept Aram maybe) doing it head on.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 05:04:22
subject: <b>The cliff...</b>
body:
I've thought it's a sort of a &quot;point of no return&quot;, and likely a bad one. Maybe Aram is 'bad', maybe not, maybe he even is a Darkfriend, but I think his coldhearted liking to killing is the danger to Perrin. He's rabid, and that is catching.<br /><br />Maybe it will be like &quot;Hey, we rescued the ladies, Perrin, now let's go and hack those nasty Shaido to pieces!&quot; from Aram. And that would be bad for his karma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> so to say, and more, it would delay him from getting to Rand.<br /><br />So, I say, somehow Aram will try to make him stay and do some rabid killing, but he decides against it and goes to Rand... just in nick of time to save him, from what, I won't start guessing now. (No, I will. Alviarin! Coming whining to him, &quot;Please save me O Mighty Dragon, those Black Ajah sisters are going to kill me!&quot; referring to the Black Ajah hunters... Well just an offhand guess.)<br /><br />Whoa, that might even happen - or not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 06:59:56
subject: <b>Don't forget...</b>
body:
...that Jordan likes to trick us. He'll have a dream and then there'll be an event which seems to fit in with it, 2 books later and there's another event which fits just as well, so what was he referring to. An example just off the top of my head...Min has seen a broken crown around Perrin. This is highly likely to be to do with Saldea and Faile's links to the thrown, but just to add a bit of confusion we also have Faile and Perrin in the scene where Rand breaks the Cairheinin crown before fixing it.<br /><br />So the brambles might just be meant to lead us away from the real answer (which we might not have seen yet).


created: 2002-02-22 13:36:10
subject: <b>Definitely partly fulfilled with Dumai's Wells</b>
body:
Many of Egwene's dreams are not litteral and I think this is one of those : the race through brambles and the cliff Egwene sees are in Perrin's head and IMHO it's an ongoing issue with him, not a reference to a specific event. The Dumai's Wells battle was probably the first instance where Perrin's going to use this image.  He might well invoke it again soon facing the Shaido to rescue Faile, explaining why Egwene still dreams of it.  <br /><br />As for Aram I'm one who don't believe him a darkfriend, it's his bloodthirst and eagerness to fight for revenge that will become dangerous to Perrin eventually, possibly when/if Perrin is faced with the same dilemna of seeking to avenge something or go on with his &quot;duties&quot; as ta'veren.  I think the viewing about the hammer and the axe is also linked to that somehow.  IMO, Perrin might is destined to become some sort of a leader/unifier in the vein of Artur &quot;Hammer of Light&quot; Hawkwing, though not necessarily by creating an empire litterally. But I don't think he will or should be a conqueror, he will have to drop the axe for the hammer to succeed.  Going the way of the axe might mean loosing his humanity and &quot;become a wolf&quot; eventually and Aram might end up drawing him toward that after some dire tragedy. <br /><br />As for the Broken Crown it's really RAFO... for all we know his wedding to Faile might have fulfilled this viewing already, but I have a hard time believing that RJ slowly built all this stuff about Basharande, the Broken Crown, Faile being the cousin of the Queen and the heir to the throne after her father only to snatch Faile from Perrin's life and make it all null and void. For some reason I don't have a problem imaging Faile and Perrin as Queen/King of Saldaea and New Matheren in a first step and later other rulers like Berelain, Alliandre and Elayne and possibly even Tuon aligning their people with him in an effort to unify the parts of the Westlands that the Forsaken won't control on the eve of the last battle (I'd bet on the whole West and South-West falling for good in their hands when Semirhage and Demandred's plans come to fruition). <br /><br />There's just too many leaders who discover the virtues of Perrin right now to be something completely fortuitous, IMHO, and Morgase could turn out to be the key to bring Elayne, Gawyn and possibly Galad behind him eventually. But the cliff and the axe he will have to avoid to make it work, will have to be a peacemaker and unifier, not another Lord of Chaos like Rand has become under the Forsaken's manipulations of events.  Rand will have to give up active political leadership to someone he trusts, military leadership to Mat and leave the unification of the channelers to Egwene and Logain while he concentrates on the DO and the Forsaken.  Rand is running after his tail right now, with lands rebelling when he turns his back.


created: 2002-02-22 19:29:13
subject: <b>I really don't</b>
body:
think we'll see the Perrin on the throne in the series. Not that I don't think he will eventually, I do, but I suspect it will be one of the threads Jordan will leave open at the end.


created: 2002-02-23 02:15:09
subject: <b>The Cliff</b>
body:
The cliff could simply be the Shaido and the actions that they will take against Perrin later in the series.


created: 2002-02-23 05:55:50
subject: <b>deeper and deeper</b>
body:
it seems to me that starting with damnai's well, perrin, and mat, have more and more an attack dog for rand.  maybe slashing through the brambles is representative of his falling into this role, one that he wants no part of, and the reaching of the cliff is the point that he'll be in so deep he cant return. <br /><br />hey, i just came up with a theory!


created: 2002-02-23 13:24:59
subject: <b>I like the cliff</b>
body:
as a sort of point of no return. After this there is no possible way to take a lesser role. That sort of thing. But if he had to be there in the first place, as one of the two times he is supposed to save Rand, then the cliff is mute. The point of no return would have been earlier in his decision to help Rand. Maybe his decision to help Rand was the cliff, he could've let Rand go to the tower and lived a happy life with Faile in the Two Rivers until TG. But now, since he did save Rand, he's gallavanting al over Ghealdan trying to do a job Rand gave him.


created: 2002-02-23 15:27:23
subject: <b>I would agree with Dom...</b>
body:
This probably is not representative of one single event, but of a mind set that is dangerous to Perrin.  It is dangerous for him to kill without acknowledging the fact that he is killing.  This leads to dangerous consequences.  This is comparable to Rand's internal battle with his own humanity.  Also, I think Aram might be similar to Mordeth in a way.  Not everybody in the books who is evil is also a darkfriend.  It is all about tactics.  If your tactics are evil, even if your goal is not, then you are evil.  RJ has shown us that the end does not justify the means.  <br /><br />However, kudos to the theory writer for an impressive observation.


created: 2002-02-23 21:15:21
subject: <b>The cliff is the point of no return.</b>
body:
Maybe the cliff is the point where Perrin begins to like his axe, and killing. It has always been pushed around that Perrin is the Builder figure, and if he becomes a killer/destroyer it will upset the triangular ta'veran thing. I mean, thats definitely a HUGE danger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-24 18:24:02
subject: <b>The Brambles</b>
body:
I actually think that the brambles have to do with the Shaido--or, rather, ARE the Shaido--but not neccesarily at Dumai's Well. I think it's the Shaido who kidnapped Faile. He will be trying to get to her, but with an immediate danger he won't be able to see because of his limited scope as far as Faile is concerned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 23:28:19
subject: <b>Fools, fools, every last one of you...</b>
body:
Well, not Dom.  he had the right of it.<br /><br />Ok.. first, the brambles that are refured to in the dreams could and most likely are the Shaido.  think about it... its said twise in one page.  It fits not much unlike O.J's glove.  <br /><br />So.. what do we have then... Perrin cutting his way through brambles (aka the Shaido).  As I remember it, in the dream its stated that he is intent on the brambles that he dosent see the cliff.<br /><br />In that case... the brambes being the Shaido have his attention.  He is intent on the grousem battle.  And then there's Aram.  He is like the rabid dog that gets more vile the longer that its around its kind so to say(ie. death/killing).  Lets face it, Aram has a BIG role in the books, I don't care what some of you fags say.<br /><br />So.. we have Aram and his prophecyish type of a role, refuring to the '..and the closer Aram got to Perrin, the more of a feel of dread that Egwen had...' well something of the sort.<br /><br />Ok then.. here we have Perrin hacking the Shaido,  Aram by his side enjoying every moment of it.<br /><br />Battles done.. the brambles and the cliff are gone right..?<br />NO!! FOOLS!!  The cliff is the Aei Sedai.  Think about it!!<br /><br />I mean, think how keen Aram was on killing those Aei Sedai,  what if all the bloodshead had made Perrin untrusting.. say he developes a Rand syndrom?  What.. just think about it.. what if he truely thought that they were a thret to Rand and the Light or.. saymaybe Fail at some point?  I could see Perrin killing women.. well he did.. Maidens and all.. Rand.. I can't.<br /><br />So we have Aram convincing Perrin to do off some Aei Sadai, but the more you kill people for mistrust, the smaller the reason that you need to do over another one... <br /><br />I could see this road leading to very, very dreadful outcomes.


