# w_comment

created: 2006-05-12 10:15:52
subject: <b>good one, BUT</b>
body:
The only correction you must make there is this..<br /><br />Tyr did not step down to allow Odin to take over leadership.  If you read Nordic lore Odin was the allfather since creation.  It was odin that formed the first two humans Vili and Ve, and it was odin that helped slay his father ymir and create the earth from his remains... so how is it Tyr is the leader of the gods?  My understanding is that if Tyr ever was the leader it was because Odin was off doing his wandering thing and Tyr ruled in his stead.<br /><br />Also, Ragnarok never happened...  Loki would still be bound.  He is to oppose the gods and aid the giants in the final battle that has yet to happen.  The stories of Ragnarok are told in a past tense fashion as a lot or nordic storytelling seems to work that way.  I personally it was a vision by a Vitki or the like, and passed down as something that took place as he was envisioning the entire thing in a future standpoint.<br /><br />Peace favor your swords


created: 2003-01-24 13:55:57
subject: <b>First!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I am glad that there is a theory that finaly sugests a way to save her<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">isandorn the lowly<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Narg Lives!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Why live when life lacks the luster worth living for???</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 14:22:29
subject: <b>a lot of hard work...</b>
body:
and time went into this theary I am sure. But I don't get it.  You state that the realms were a magnification of the WOT world but really only proved that the Snake/Fox realms were just darn big. Ok.  They are big. Please expound on were you draw that it is a Magification of this world.<br /><br />As for Moiraine, I hope that I am not the only one would coundn't care less if she ever comes back.  IMHO RJ got rid of her because Rand had &quot;outgrown&quot; her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 14:51:48
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
that your theory is lacking evidence in proving the world of the Snakes and Foxes as a Magnification of the world.  First off, you try to show that the Snakes and Foxes seems to have sensivity to light, sound, etc... but their restrictions seem just silly if this were true... wouldn't there be a restriction on speaking too since it's possible they could yell like Mat does... and why doesn't Mat's yelling at them hurt them? instead they just finish the deal with him and hurtle him out into Rhuidean, hung from Avendesora...<br />Maybe they just don't like fire (as their restriction on torches and lamps (which are oil and fire based in WoT)), iron and music... i have a hard time believing that they would restrict so selectively these objects if all their sense were just sooooooooo dang sensitive...<br /><br />As for the thing about it being big... maybe they're just really good architects and like building things big... there's absolutely no indication that this means anything... and long fingers and stuff just means they're not human...<br /><br />As for the way you think Moiraine will be rescued... it's completely unfounded. There's a possibility that the ability to channel would be 'amplified' but it makes no sense to believe so, especially because the scenes that involve the Snakes and Foxes show nothing about the ability to channel in them... Moiraine's knowing Nynaeve was there behind the tree does not have any connection with the Snakes and Foxes and in my opinion, the way to defeat the Snakes and Foxes and find Moiraine needs to come from understanding Olver's little Snakes and Foxes ditty, our current information about them (from travelling through the ter'angreal in Mat's POVs) and the little hints that Birgitte has given us...<br /><br />The means by which you say Moiraine will be found is just so unrelated to anything we know about them... it's just too hard to believe...<br /><br />Creative... but I just can't agree with any of it...


created: 2003-01-24 15:49:38
subject: <b>Mat Olver and Thom (COT Spoiler)</b>
body:
In COT Tuon is playing Snakes and Foxes with Olver.<br />It also states that it was a daily ritual between Tuon and Olver<br />We also know because Tuon used to train sul'dam she can channel.<br />So assuming that the theory is right then....<br /><br />Just as Moiraine sensed Nynaeve, it should be possible for Tuon to sense Moiraine everything being amplified....<br /><br />Something to think about I guess.<br /><br />Any case I think Tuon has just got included in the group that rescues Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />We all must wake from the dream one day<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 18:25:30
subject: <b>Original at Least</b>
body:
I usually don't vote for theories I don't think are very likely to be true or I want to be true.  I do give points for originality, which this theory has a lot more than most.


created: 2003-01-24 18:49:42
subject: <b>Eg's dream</b>
body:
This is only part to do with your post but I thought I'd add it:<br /><br />ACOS Eg dismisses 2 dreams as just nightmares:<br />1) Nicola denouncing her to the Hall and Thom coming forward to give evidence.<br /><br />This in a roundabout way has a good chance of happening with Nicola running away and Moiraine's letter read by Thom may incrminate Elaida<br /><br />2) Aes Sedai with switches chasing her down an endless corridoor where mishappen things in shadow lunged for her.<br /><br />Mat has been down the endless corridoor twice and Perrin saw a Tinker dressed man get his skin removed in TDR by a mishappen shadow on the ceiling (Foxes wear human skin). The Aes Sedai with switches may represent the BA.<br /><br />I think Egwene somehow will be imprisoned in the ToG.<br /><br />I have a theory (no proof whatsoever) that Gawyn, Siuan and Gareth (maybe Thom) will be involved in the rescue in the ToG and this is why Min (who says all her visions come true) all of a sudden sees 2 visions that could go either way (i.e the other dimension of ToG) . Maybe Gareth and Siuan need to stay in the same room whilst looking for Egwene.<br /><br />PS: They bump into Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-25 20:53:25
subject: <b>y do they need channelers?</b>
body:
My thought is that if the foxes and snakes world magnifies things, then it will magnify Matt's already considerable luck.  Moriane would probably just happen to be walking by where ever the enterance is with that kind of luck...<br />That is my thought.<br /><br />The Brian-dead master of sleep.........


created: 2003-01-26 03:42:44
subject: <b>She's still thinking about it...</b>
body:
Moraine is still in Finland pondering what bargain to strike with the Fin. Whereas Lanfear just blurted out a bargain without realizing what she was doing, sort of like Mat when he came in through this same door. But Moraine wittnessed the things Mat received including the rope burn. So she's not so inclined to blurt out anything while with the Fin. In fact the Fin are getting quite impatient with her but then again it could be that it's just a long ways to the backdoor that happens to exit on the other side of the world.


created: 2003-01-26 23:30:47
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
Lots of thought has went into this and it shows.  Well done. <br /><br /> I like the idea of another channeler being involved in Moraine's rescue.  Having said that and remebering the effect of Ta veren on the Finns, I beleive the effect of a Taveren present will play a big role in the rescue.  eg. Distraction for the Finns having a or more Tavaren present.  <br /><br />Keep up the good work Dodge.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-27 17:29:59
subject: <b>why go into the tower?</b>
body:
My question is why anyone would go into the tower in the first place.  No one in any group has any reason to believe that moriane is even alive.  Everyone thinks she is dead.  I believe that she will come back, but I believe it will be of her own doing.  No one is going to go looking for her and I doubt anyone will accidently bump into her.  I don't believe RJ would expect us to believe that big of a coincidence.<br /><br />Moiraine will come back.  She will do it on her own.<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-27 19:54:16
subject: <b>stilled?</b>
body:
how did the warder bond break if she isnt stilled or dead? i dont think that she is dead, and when she went through the door lan couldnt feel her, so what will an other channaler be able to do? if she is stilled, they cant sence the power because the power isnt there


created: 2003-01-27 22:13:42
subject: <b>Chance_Bails is 100% Correct IMO</b>
body:
Nobody will save Moiraine from Finnland as nobody knows she is alive and needs saving.  Also the fact that if Lanfear knows how to get free I think Moiraine will know how to get free as well.<br /><br />The romantic &quot;Idea&quot; of Thom saving her is just that.  There is no proof that she needs/will be saved from Finnland and everyones theory always involves a cast of thousands.<br /><br />I also believe the plot does not have enough time to even explore this notion of thousands saving Moiraine.  She is a strong intelligent woman and I believe she is not dead and also does not require saving.


created: 2003-01-28 01:47:05
subject: <b>It's a matter of when</b>
body:
In Moiraine's letter to Rand, she says: &quot;I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you.&quot;<br /> I always took this to mean that her rescue takes place after the Last Battle, maybe I'm wrong. <br /><br /> However, consider this: The Borderland armies are hanging around Caemylin. The rebel AS are at Tar Valon with Gareth Byrne's army. The Seanchan are preparing for an attack on the White Tower. This puts a lot of people in the area of the Caralain Grass, where I believe the major battles are to be fought. It's vast, mostly uninhabited, rolling hills with scattered copses of trees; perfect for a war with the trollocs roving southward.<br /><br /> Not only that though. Remember the battle of Manetheren that Moiraine told at the beginning of the series? Deja vu. Your final major army conflict sight. <br /><br /> And the edge of Manetheren was by the ToG, so Moiraine's rescue probably comes very late in the story.<br /><br /> Great theory Dodge! I know you put a lot of time and effort into it. Time will tell who is in on her rescue.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 09:43:55
subject: <b>A motive to enter</b>
body:
In book one, when we first see the tower with Rand, Mat, Thom and Dolman, Mat thinks there might be treasure inside. So if Mat comes across the tower again, he might go investigate. Now, couple this with the theory that to get inside the ToG you have to walk around it three times (fairy lore and Birgette stopping Perrin after he made two circuits in TAR) all it would take would be a couple trips around the thing looking for a way inside and *poof* your in. <br /><br />Remember that many adventurous people have visited the tower in the past, thus the people Mat has the memories from. If Mat is traveling on the river Arinelle, and you can see the ToG from it (witch you can), then perhaps he will take a little side trip to go see it. Perhaps a memory will spark about visiting there (from the memories in his head) and he will go for more answers, or perhaps he will go looking for gold and treasure that we know Mat loves, or for even some other reason. But Min did have that viewing of a women dead and gone will need to help Rand (assumed Moirane), and all the references to the Snakes in Foxes both with the game and with Perrin and Birgette, I can't believe it won't play some role in the future.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 11:43:37
subject: <b>To crayilyn</b>
body:
Nobody will save Moiraine from Finnland as nobody knows she is alive and needs saving. Also the fact that if Lanfear knows how to get free I think Moiraine will know how to get free as well.<br /><br />As soon as they realize Lanfear is alive they will go get her.<br />Reasoning being if Lanfear is alive so can Moiraine be alive. Maybee she is trapped thats why she is not returned even though Lanfear has. Lets go get her.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 17:52:52
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
- Does anyone think it possible that Mat is trying to escape the secret Seanchan rescue party, and he is forced to enter the ToG thinking it is the only place to find?  Hence, he helps save Moraine, and I keep remembering something about Thom pulling out Moraines likeness from a fire.<br /><br />- I do think Moraine will be saved, and hopefully soon.  I mean, how many more books is he gonna write?!?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lit from a blessed Tree - An Olive, neither of the East nor of the West,<br />Whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched  it; <br />Light upon Light!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 23:52:30
subject: <b>My own ideas</b>
body:
First off, NO BODY has mentioned ANYTHING about Moraine(not even in flash backs).  I find it a little odd on RJ's part that he has not at least mentioned her in some way.  Just about everyone comes back into the story when and were you least expect them to.  This just seems against his style, so he must have some purpose to it (or he has forgotten about her, but I dought it).<br /><br />One of two things is going to happen. <br /><br />1) she will find her own way out. - I do not think so. It has been at least a year since we last saw her.  I think it is safe to say if she has not found her way out yet she is not going to.  Also I was under the impression Lanfear died and had been brought back by the Dark One (correct me if you are SURE I am wrong here).<br /><br />2) Someone eventually enters finn and find her there waiting.  - This I think is far more likely, if it ever happen.  I think Matt will be the one because the snake and the fox game is always following him around.  Even from the very begining he is the one who always talks about it.  I also think the way to get out is the same way you win the game. By cheating!  The only rules to break, that we know of, is to bring fire, iron, or musical instraments.  I have no idea what effect they have on them but it can't be good since they disliked the fire.  The only reason I support this is because the snake and fox game has been mentioned in every book with no apparent purpose. RJ wants us to remember this for some reason.  Matt even says oliver should have given up the game long ago. He seems like a smart boy, even if it was the only thing he had from his father he still should have figured out the game and stopped playing it (like i did with tic tac toe).<br /><br />I have no idea why matt would go there (especally after the first time) but he seems to have no control over were he ends up.  However he gets there I am sure he will not like it.


created: 2003-01-29 09:41:54
subject: <b>A sudden thought on cheating</b>
body:
Bringing fire would be easy without the 'finn people knowing about it - just bring some of Aludras fire sticks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 03:41:15
subject: <b>Wishes and Prizes</b>
body:
Since the 'finn allow three wishes I think Moiraine figured that out quite soon. And so did probably Lanfear.<br />Though just as likely none of them knew about any price to pay. Since Moiraine knows the Tear angreal she will assume the two are similar (payment = memories) and thus simply states her wishes.<br />We'll probably never find out about them before she is freed, but it seems pretty obvious that a woman like Moiraine would wish for something to help win the Last Battle.<br /><br />We know that you aren't allowed to ask questions about the Shadow in Tear, this is probably the same with the Rhuidean one. But Moiraine WILL wish AGAINST the Shadow and Lanfear will wish FOR the Shadow. Thus both breaking the rule of rules and their price will be high. As Lanfear wished FOR the shadow her price might have been death. Also one of her wishes could have been to get out! (Remember that was Mat's third wish! he wouldn't have gotten out without it). So she did the DO restored her yadder yadder<br />Moiraine on the other hand did probably think less selfish and used all her wishes for something greater than herself. And thus is still stuck there. I can't iamgine her prize really - burn out? Maybe. Maybe not...<br /><br />And with Thom re-reading her note over and over he might try to figure out more about it than whodunnit to Owen. But maybe what else Moiraine might have wanted to tell him or where she bl**** is!<br /><br />My two copppers


created: 2003-01-30 17:51:52
subject: <b>Who would the Channeler be?</b>
body:
Like you mentioned, someone who could channel would probably be needed. And Mat, Thom and Olver need to be involved, as someone else mentioned; Personally, I think that Tuon would be the one who could channel, or one of her sul'dam. I think it would be Tuon because she likes to tag along with &quot;Toy&quot; and without a sul'dam the party would be a little less noticable; plus, Tuon should be able to channel: she mentions in CoT that one of her hobbies is training sul'dam, and to train sul'dam, you have to be a ble to channel. Therefore, the logical answer for the main question would be that Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons herself, would sense Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lady Amalthea Pendragon<br /><br />&quot;Lan is Shrek! Lan is Shrek! Look! Rand describes him as an onion! He's Shrek!&quot; ... wtf, mate...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 20:42:10
subject: <b>No one will rescue her?</b>
body:
Everyone is saying no one knows Moiraine is alive to go and rescue her.<br /><br />Maybe in her note to Thom, she said, &quot;If Mat gets married, grap him and his wife (+ Spear), get some matches off the Illuminator, take Gaidel Cain reborn, bring your flute, spin round the tower three times, and come get me!&quot;<br /><br />Remember she saw some of the future, and just because Thom didn't get up and run to her, may just mean that Moiraine placed restrictions on what has to happen first.


created: 2003-05-31 14:47:53
subject: <b>Moraine will get out.</b>
body:
My personal feeling is with the help of Thom, Mat, Olver and Aludra`s matches- maybe Tuon will go along for the Adventure.<br /><br />One more time about SUL`DAM:<br /><br />They cannot Channel---they have the ability to LEARN how to Channel.  Unless one of the AS with her party {or possibly Setalle Anan giving her some pointers}, she will NOT be able to Channel!!!!! That is Tuon I`m talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-30 15:19:23
subject: <b>stupid duche</b>
body:
hmm yeah i disagree w/ the whole magnification crap.<br /><br />i'll give an example of your stupidity. your quote about the finn guy being scared of rand's sword b/c of the snakes and fox's phrase which states, &quot;fire to blind&quot; it is obvious that the finn was being partially blinded by rand's sword.  <br /><br />second, who cares if everthing in the finn world is larger that in our world, their world is just different.  <br /><br />i also disagree w/ the use of a AS to find moiraine, b/c i think its more possible that 4 characters who match the snakes &amp; foxes phrase will be used.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 20:52:35
subject: <b>Re: Two Moons</b>
body:
Thanks for your kind words. <br /><br />It was just a theory, no need to go insulting me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-27 16:59:07
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with this and think that it is basic common knowledge. The only new thing that i read here is that a women channeler will be part of the company. <br /><br /> I think that only 3 people will go in (as we learned in KOD) and that they will be Mat, Thom (again as we learned in KOD) and Nyaneve.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-21 16:23:28
subject: <b>Snakes and Foxes</b>
body:
Just one more thing about Moraine's Rescue. As Snakes and Foxes (the game) is considered basically impossible (correct me if I'm wrong) because of the amount of luck needed to beat it. So, the finns might just challenge Mat to a game of it and because of his little luck thing, he may be able to beat it. Basically, the game might be the key to getting Moraine.


created: 2009-03-27 11:22:56
subject: <b>People Going to Moiraine</b>
body:
The book has already said that Mat Thom and Noal are going to rescue moraine, and an earlier viewing of Min's shows mat taking moiraines blue stone out of a fire.


created: 2003-02-04 03:35:55
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
...but I don't agree.  I personally think that that enormous pack of dark hounds is out looking for Tuon.  She went missing at a very inopportune momment for the Shaddow, just as they were about to lure Rand into a trap through an alliance with the Seanchan.  I bet Semirhage wants her back badly....but thats just my opinion.


created: 2003-02-04 04:12:22
subject: <b>TUON ? ? ?</b>
body:
Dude i know thats just your opinion but as we see at the end of COT Semirhage has found a way to overcome the problem of Tuons disaperance so if there are for tuon there there going to be killing her... but i'd say there about 200 miles too far north for Tuon.<br /><br />If semirhage wanted her dead which she indeed would at this point now she would just use the gholam if its under her control if not a grey man or darkfriend or Noal (the last one im doubting tho)..<br /><br />I personally like this theory too i mean if we figure it out as Shooganooga has it reminds that Fain is indeed growing more powerfull regardless of what happened at the end of WH and at the last battle something very significant will happen with him. time to RAFO i spose<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 09:38:51
subject: <b>Fain</b>
body:
Last we saw Fain he was in Far madding, but it does seems as though he has mastered the ways, so his last known location doesn't mean much. We also know slayer was suppose looking for him, and that a forsaken, at the least, wanted him dead. So, he is a viable option.<br /><br />The question I would have, is why would the darkhounds think he was in Murandy? Do they know something we don't?<br /><br />Don't dismiss Tuon just because she was not that far north. Remember, Mat and Co. stayed to the south to throw the Seanchan off their search. Which means a logical guess might have placed her near where the darkhounds were.<br /><br />In TFoH, a darkhound entered Asmo's room, but Asmo was not killed, so they are used as spys as will as assassins. With this in mind, however, 50 darkhounds is probably 49 too many for proper spying.<br /><br />All in all, Fain is as good a guess (or better thanmost) as any.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 09:43:32
subject: <b>Fain is a prime suspect, but...</b>
body:
At this point, the only people that we can say with certainty that the darkhounds are not after are the with Perrin.  I think that it is way to early to rule others out.  You dismiss both Rand and Mat way to quickly, IMO.  <br /><br />An important question to ask is how/why did the darkhounds find and circle Perrin's camp, and not Masema's.  If they are searching for something, what drew them to Perrin? Answer - ta'veren.  I believe that part of the darkhounds' tracking abilities is that they can sense (and track) ta'varen.  We see evidence (though other explainations may apply) for this in tDR as they track Rand.  Also, darkhounds were quick to discover Perrin and company when they arrived in Illian - maybe they were drawn to ta'varen (of course, maybe Sammie had a ward that detected Moraine somehow), but the ta'varen connection is just as likely.<br /><br />So, with that mini-theory in mind, it seems likely that the darkhounds are after ta'varen.  If this is true, we have eliminated Perrin, so only Mat and Rand remain.  <br /><br />My thought is that it is Rand they are after.  Rand's location wasn't really known at this time (though a few dark asha'man had tracked him to Far Madding).  And the shadow really wants to get there hands on him.  Rand had also left clues throughout the land - so he could be anywhere (from the shadow's point of view).  Of course, this is just a thought, without much evidence.  As always it is a RAFO situation, but the speculation is fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 13:06:48
subject: <b>Suggestion of a Traveller?</b>
body:
In the &quot;Blacksmiths Puzzle&quot; chapter of CoT, on page 209, the Aes Sedai Masuri reads the trail and talks about the darkhounds &quot;impatience&quot;, that their hunt has been going on for a long time and the quarry has eluded them. That to me suggests a channeller who can Travel. After all, darkhounds can't be avoided easily, they are too fast<br /><br />That would mean Rand, an Asha'man (Logain? He gated around on recruiting missions through WH) or one of Egwene's lot. Or someone like Mat who was moved around through gates. Or a wildcard. I've seen no evidence of Padan Fain using the ways, but it is possible. I never really considered it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 13:42:30
subject: <b>Fain and the Waygates</b>
body:
Go back to TGH, and Fain has used the waygates several times. To get to Falme from Carheinen, and then later to go to the Two Rivers. In fact, there were some theories regarding Fain having some connection to Machin Sin. It seems he is ammune from the black wind, if not bonded to it somehow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 13:42:34
subject: <b>What the darkhounds are really after !!!</b>
body:
Great theory but I don't think the darkhound are after Fain or Tuon. We all know that the Dark One influences grows in this book. The Darkhounds are feeling the last battle coming and they are regrouping for what is coming ... <br />In Cot there is a part where teh wolf are feeling something is coming ... I think the darkhounds are feeling it too ! <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 14:00:46
subject: <b>What the darkhounds were after</b>
body:
Great theory and it makes sence.  Perrin is obviously not the target, nor is Mat, the Gholem was first set up by Sammael to distract the Aes Sedai hunting for Ter'angreal.  Mat bumped into it and showed he could hurt the creature.  Its seems to be after Mat for personal reasons {remove a threat}<br /><br />Rand is another possiblity but why would the shadow send even 50 dark hounds after him.  Rand could probably deal with them quite easliy.  They can't sneek up on him as he would feel them even if he was asleep, the last time the feel of them was enough to wake him.  Even if it came to Balefire being the only think that can harm them Rand has shown both an ability and willingness to use Balefire.  <br /><br />Mordeth and SH seem to be the Internal affairs department of the Chosen.  The only viable threat is Fain and he has been a growing thorn in the DO's side.  <br /><br />He also has the ability to move around freely.  I read that RJ said at a signing that while Fain and the Black Wind are not one in the same the Black Wind gave him professional courtesy and allowed him to pass unharmed in TGH when he used the Ways.  This would account for the frustration.  The Hounds can't travel and it takes time to get from one place to another.  They could have been after Fain, nearly got to where he is and then he skips out of town via a Waygate.


created: 2003-02-04 14:12:07
subject: <b>Fain has had people hunting him before....</b>
body:
Slayer was origionally hunting Fain in the Two Rivers, he failed, so to me it makes sense that the DO would send something more powerful, hence an extremely large pack of darkhounds.  Also, fain has used the ways several times safely even though the ways were able to kill trollocs and fades.  I think that explains the frustration of the darkhounds.


created: 2003-02-04 14:26:03
subject: <b>Problem</b>
body:
The only problem I have with the Padan Fain using the way gates is that; Loial comes back to Cairhein and he is finished with his work.  Unless the Way gates are springing up everywhere.  Or there are more than what the Ogier knew about.  But Loial can feel a way gate that is what happened in Camelyn.  I still do not discount Fain but another theory I read was Moiraine.  But personally I think it is Rand.  But then again he was in Far Madding a long time.  Just like everyone else I will RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 16:14:59
subject: <b>Darkhounds after a Traveller</b>
body:
While a nice theory, there's still not enough evidence supporting that. We simply don't know enough.<br />There are two possible things related to the Traveling part of the Hunt: the Darkhounds are running around, looking for someone, and Perrin noted that they often crossed places where a Travelling gateway opened and closed. In addition, Perrin (and the horses) smelled the sulfurous stench. Where else in CoT has this stench appeared? In Glimmers when Eamon Valda smelled a terrible odor which quickly vanished. Likely as not, it may be the smell of Shayol Ghul through a gateway, but it's interesting how this is similar to the smell of the Darkhounds, yes?<br />I may be wrong, but it's interesting nonetheless. And wouldn't it be a kick if the smell also meant Eamon Valda is potentially another wolfbrother?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 18:04:05
subject: <b>Darkhounds after Fain</b>
body:
Yes, this theory sounds very plausable to me, too.  I'd also like to draw your attention to a throwaway line in &quot;Wonderful News&quot; - WH, the Coffee House scene.<br /><br />Moridin has just turned up and he makes a comment along the lines of small, insignificant things can suddenly grow in importance, such as whether or not Isam finds and kills Fain. (Don't have WH here at the moment, so I'm paraphrasing.)<br /><br />I'm intrigued to know what Fain's been up to between WH and CoT to make the DO/Forsaken frightened enough to send a pack of 50 Darkhounds after him.<br /><br />Some people have drawn a link between Fain and Gollum in the Lord of the Rings, the character who was evil but accidentally allowed the quest to succeed, bringing about Sauron's downfall; maybe one of the Forsaken has the Foretelling and has seen that Fain will ultimately, if accidentally, bring about the DO's downfall!  Hey, maybe he'll have to show Rand the way to SG!<br /><br />Perhaps we ought to hope those Darkhounds never catch up to him...


created: 2003-02-04 18:58:55
subject: <b>Me, I did!!</b>
body:
Hu Hum...sorry about that. Personally, I see no evidence on which we can determine who the darkhouds are after. Rand &amp; Mat are too far away, Perrin has been passed over, and Fain has been diminishing in importance over the latest books. He seems to be hell bent on getting Rand, which doesn't seem much of a threat to the shadow. Afraid I can't give any theories as to who is the target, just seems to me that no so far mentioned quite matches up<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 20:11:08
subject: <b>I hope no one...</b>
body:
has said this, I skimmed through the posts.<br /><br />Fain...maybe. There are problems though. The Darkhounds are around Perrin's camp the night before Rand uses the Cheodan Kal. The last time we saw Fain was the day before Rand uses the Cheodan Kal. Far Madding is to the east of where Perrin is, not the south (well, maybe to the south slightly, but certainly far more to the east). So, with Far Madding where it is, we have to conclude that for Fain to be the target, he has to have travelled via the Ways. It is possible that the DH's are just searching anywhere and everywhere, hoping to pick up a scent, but if so we might as well throw the whole theory out of the window as then it could be anybody.<br /><br />Now the Ways are fast, but are they fast enough to get Fain from Far Madding to somewhere south of Perrin within less than a day? Perhaps.<br /><br />However, even if they are it seems unlikely that the Darkhounds could get to Perrin's camp that quick if hunting Fain. It seems their quarry is eluding them, yet they are heading with all haste in a specific direction. This suggests they are fully capable of tracking whoever they hunt, it's just that the hunted can move faster (through the Ways/Travelling/whatever). If it was Fain, they should have been heading for Far Madding while he was there. Now Fain MAY be able to get from Far Madding to the south of Perrin in under a day, but, as fast as Darkhounds are, I doubt the pack could get to Perrin from Far Madding in that time. There is of course the possibility that the Darkhound's were only just to the north of Perrin on their way to Far Madding when Fain travelled the Ways to the south.<br /><br />Then there's the question of why Fain would travel so far to the south, even with the small injury Rand gave him. Rand drives him, his death is what he lives for. the man was in his grasp...and he leaves?<br /><br />A final problem is that there may not even be a Waygate near Far Madding. Even at the steddings they were built outside of it's influence, the OP is needed. So any Waygate seems likely to have to be outside of the city, if there at all.<br /><br />So, for it to be Fain we need the following to be true:<br /><br />- Fain needs to be able to travel from Far Madding to somewhere to the south of Perrin in less than a day.<br /><br />- There needs to be a Waygate in, or near Far Madding.<br /><br />- Fain needs some big reason to leave Rand, in particular going to the south.<br /><br />- The Darkhounds need to be not far north of Perrin when Fain uses the Ways.<br /><br />As far as I can see there is no evidence to support any of these points. Until then, Fain seems unlikley. Still possible though.


created: 2003-02-04 21:22:40
subject: <b>fain = gollum</b>
body:
i was one of the first to comment on the gollum/fain thing.  i think that this theory materializes alot of what we all thought when we read about the darkhounds being impatient after their quarry.  fain is the obvious choice here since he has been hunted by forsaken, ala slayer for a long time.


created: 2003-02-05 01:28:51
subject: <b>I think it is one of the Ashamen</b>
body:
I believe that they were searching after one of the channelers in Perrin's camp. I mean why would RJ go to all of the trouble of connecting the wolves and the darkhounds if Perrin wasn't going to be involved when the darkhounds attack.<br />It is my personal feeling that the hounds where after one of the ashamen in camp because they appear to be way to tired to have spent all night in there blankets. I think that the hounds were so frustrated cause one of the ashamen was gone in the night doing only the creator knows what when the DH circled the camp. Remember that it was still night when the DH's were circling, and if the object of their search was supposed to be in the camp they scrutinized so heavily but wasn't, then surely that would account for the frustration felt by them.<br />


created: 2003-02-05 03:59:07
subject: <b>Crossroads of a Greater Twilight</b>
body:
The Darkhounds were searching for *someone*, that's for sure.  But the number 50 may not be connected just to the danger of their prey.  It is most dangerous to encounter Darkhounds &quot;in the hours before sunrise and after sunrise,&quot; and where two roads meet... e.g. Crossroads of Dusk and Crossroads of Twilight.  However, I don't think these are necessarily the literal dusk and twilight of a single day.  I think they refer to the dusk and twilight of an age.<br /><br />No question that the 3rd age is reaching its twilight, and is at a time of crossroads.  The Darh Hunt runs; it seems likely that packs are grouping up and running together.  This in itself is probably a phenomonen tied to the rising shadow and the coming last battle -- we see a lot of such phenomena in COT -- and it would indeed make Darkhounds quite dangerous to run into at these archetypal moments in history, since they run in numbers.<br /><br />That's just one take on it anyway.


created: 2003-02-06 02:05:52
subject: <b>Orange ajah....</b>
body:
seems to see it as I do.  <br /><br />Three in a boat discredits Fain for reasons I do.  Also Slayer is far more of a threat to Fain than 50 darkhounds and Slayer hasn't had a sniff in two and a half years.  If Slayer cannot kill Fain, what chance do 50 darkhounds have.  Fain has become something 50 darkhounds cannot handle.  They are too limited to kill Fain.  Slayer on the other hand has many tools.  <br /><br />Someone said not Mat because of the Gholam.  Well the Darkhounds and the Gholam are under orders from different individuals.  Sammy ordered the Gholam to kill Mat before he died.  The Darkhounds are under someone elses control.  Having said that I don't believe their after Mat.<br /><br /><br />Okay seems I'm rambling.  I'll end by saying I agree with Orange ajah's comments .<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 11:00:21
subject: <b>The wild hunt</b>
body:
If you read the glossary in COT their is an entry for the wild hunt.  RJ states that the dark one used to run with the hounds. I think the only importance here is that, the wild hunt is active again, and the dark one is gaining more influence. Possibly keeping tabs on the 3.


created: 2003-02-06 13:02:38
subject: <b>The wild hunt !</b>
body:
Like what Rolling Dice said, I think the Darkhounds are not searching for a prey. They are waiting for the last battle and they are growing very impatient... Prepare the last battle is coming in 2007 !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 14:21:08
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
If the case is that this is the wild hunt, and the darkhounds aren't really after anyone (which I disagree with, but I'll humor the idea)is SH at their lead or otherwise associated with them.  SH is the DO's avatar now and he's gaining strength and abilities; basically he is the manifestation of the DO in the worlk.  Since the DO is mentioned as running with the DH in the wild hunt adn SH is the manifestation of the DO, is SH hanging with the hounds?<br /><br />It's just a thought that occurred to me, and I'm not really sure about the implications.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 19:16:28
subject: <b>What about Elyas?</b>
body:
Maybe the Dark One wants Elyas out of the picture so he can't teach Perrin anything about his wolf abilities. Is Elyas with an Ashaman travelling around as they scout? I doubt one Ashaman and Elyas could take out 50 Darkhounds. Just a thought.


created: 2003-02-07 02:17:08
subject: <b>Why haven't they caught Fain?</b>
body:
From one of Fain's POV (can't remember which book) he clearly states he has killed 2 greymen sent after him.  If greymen are able to catch up to him why haven't the Darkhounds?


created: 2003-02-07 14:21:36
subject: <b>to columbo</b>
body:
so you are saying that it would be more probable the darkhounds were sent after mat than fain?  also, that 50 darkhounds would be no match for fain but would be for mat?  in other words, you are saying that fain has become a greater power than one of the three principle heroes in the series.  i think not.  mat, perrin, and rand have been outwitting forsaken, darkfriends, slayer, and fain the entire length of the series.  if you can theorize 50 darkhounds being sent after mat, the same reasoning should apply to fain as well.  as for orange ajah's comment about the end coming, he DOES agree they are after &quot;someone.&quot;  although he never commits to who.  sure the end is coming and the wild hunt with the dark one holding the reins is to finally come into fruition.  but these darkhounds were looking for someone who has evaded them for a long time?  who?  is rand easier meat than fain, therefore you would also throw him into your list of possible suspects along with loial and mat?  i don't think so.  the darkhounds most probable quarry is fain.


created: 2003-02-08 11:59:48
subject: <b>RE...</b>
body:
so you are saying that it would be more probable the darkhounds were sent after mat than fain? also, that 50 darkhounds would be no match for fain but would be for mat? in other words, you are saying that fain has become a greater power than one of the three principle heroes in the series. i think not. mat, perrin, and rand have been outwitting forsaken, darkfriends, slayer, and fain the entire length of the series. if you can theorize 50 darkhounds being sent after mat, the same reasoning should apply to fain as well. as for orange ajah's comment about the end coming, he DOES agree they are after &quot;someone.&quot; although he never commits to who. sure the end is coming and the wild hunt with the dark one holding the reins is to finally come into fruition. but these darkhounds were looking for someone who has evaded them for a long time? who? is rand easier meat than fain, therefore you would also throw him into your list of possible suspects along with loial and mat? i don't think so. the darkhounds most probable quarry is fain. <br /><br />Don't put words in my mouth.  Do you need me to summarize my comments for you. <br /><br />I Don't believe darkhounds are after Fain.  I don't believe the darkhounds are after Mat.  <br /><br />Your seeing something that isn't their.  And for the record, FAIN is just as you say &quot;a principle character&quot; as Rand, Mat and Perrin.  By your reasoning Fain should have died by now as he's had Forsaken ( Moridin/ Nablies) Slayer, and your principle characters after him.  <br /><br />Your theorizing on comments I've made that don't exist.  Please don't do that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 17:02:02
subject: <b>RE</b>
body:
Don't put words in my mouth. Do you need me to summarize my comments for you. <br /><br />I Don't believe darkhounds are after Fain. I don't believe the darkhounds are after Mat. <br /><br />Your seeing something that isn't their. And for the record, FAIN is just as you say &quot;a principle character&quot; as Rand, Mat and Perrin. By your reasoning Fain should have died by now as he's had Forsaken ( Moridin/ Nablies) Slayer, and your principle characters after him. <br /><br />Your theorizing on comments I've made that don't exist. Please don't do that.<br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />i was using deductive reasoning.  look at your own comments.  u were complaining that someone had dismissed mat, and that it in fact could be mat.  in the same post, u said it could not be fain.  my comments were directed at that line of reasoning.<br /><br />and in no way did i say fain should be dead.  in fact, i've made it plain my thoughts on fain lasting til tarmon gaidon and that he is to WOT what gollum is to LOTR.  so don't put words in my mouth.  time and again, in the WOT universe, people have been sought after by both the &quot;good guys&quot; and &quot;bad guys&quot; and have evaded both.  just because someone is after someone doesn't mean that it ends in the finding or the killing of them.<br /><br />nuff said.<br />


created: 2003-02-08 19:31:10
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
i don't think the DO would kill one of the largest generator of caos in the world. everywhere fain goes he breeds mistrust and desent. the very things the dark one encourages in his own people.


created: 2003-02-08 23:54:33
subject: <b>to where is tylin's head</b>
body:
and yet, the dark one has the forsaken commission slayer to kill fain?  whether it was to stop fain from killing rand (because he wanted rand as naeblis or because he wanted the lord of chaos to rule) or just because he wanted fain dead for going his own way, he wanted fain dead.  where slayer has failed, maybe the darkhounds will succeed.


created: 2003-02-09 00:54:56
subject: <b>Why the Dark One wants Fain dead.</b>
body:
The Dark One wants Fain dead because he is the wild card.  The Dark One feels that it is in control of events (with the exception of Rand cleansing saidan) and wants the Last battle to happen on his terms. Fain works outside the pattern and is too risky to keep around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eventually, I will drive you all mad.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 16:15:00
subject: <b>to tylin's head</b>
body:
ishy has been looking for fain since book two, i believe.  and we all know that if any of the forsaken is totally devoted to the dark one and is not concerned as much with the &quot;who will be naeblis?&quot; question, it is ishy/moridin.  also, during book 5, i think, with the battle of emonds field, luc/isam/slayer was pursuing fain in the attempt to kill him.  we know from winter's heart that slayer has only taken orders from the forsaken (that he knows, anyway).  therefore, it stands to reason that the dark one, through the forsaken, has/wants fain dead.


created: 2003-02-10 00:36:50
subject: <b>Sus</b>
body:
Does anyone else thinks it is just a bit sus that out of the few Aes Sedi Perrin had, one just happens to be an absolute expert on Darkhounds, having crossed seven packs, knowing what they all smell like, being able to tell this is a new pack, even knowing their mood? How common are Darkhounds likely to be even in the Blight - and not many sisters seems to have travelled in the blight much.<br /><br />Darkfriend.


created: 2003-02-10 20:16:31
subject: <b>To princeofthedawn...</b>
body:
or should I say Sherlock Holmes.  I will make this simple and straight forward for you.<br /><br />The darkhounds are not after Fain or Mat.<br /><br />Now you can read whatever you want into that.  Maybe you can use some of your deductive reasoning?<br /><br />As you say.....nuff said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 20:26:04
subject: <b>to columbo</b>
body:
if u don't want anyone to comment on ur way of thinking, then don't post theories or comments.  i don't care that anyone will comment, rip, or any other way criticize my way of thinking.  that is why i post.  to keep the conversation going.  again, if ur gonna get ur feathers ruffled, don't post.<br /><br />deduce that, sherlock, columbo, or monk!


created: 2003-02-15 13:49:02
subject: <b>To the princeofsomething....</b>
body:
.... you challenged my comments originally.  Remember when you used your deductive reasoning and came up with a theory regarding what I meant?  <br /><br />I have the right to defend my comments as do you.  Seems to me you've got a little bent out of shape for nothing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 06:00:51
subject: <b>A small flaw...</b>
body:
It's a nice idea, but you forget that Moridin has already sent Slayer after Fain - wouldn't your comment overkill apply here also?


created: 2003-03-26 18:56:30
subject: <b>How about Moridin?</b>
body:
Comment on the original theory:<br /><br />Another candidate requiring as many darkhounds as possible would be Moridin. We know:<br />- Demandred has plans for eliminating him (WH: &quot;Perhaps it could be arranged soon&quot; )<br />- he works with Graendel, Moggy &amp; Lanfear/Cyndane (can't remember where this came up)<br />- at least the last 2 of those are desperate to be free of the Cour'souvra (same chapter in WH)<br />- each of the Forsaken has access to packs of darkhounds that rarely run in packs of (? - CoT: can't remember the number, but it's about 10-15)<br />- all the other Forsaken want Moridin out the picture, and most have hopes of becoming Naeblis (at least D, G and L/C do)<br />- the darkhounds are heading North, and Moridin is presumably in the Blight.<br /><br />I believe the 4 Forsaken (at ex-General Demandred's suggestion) have pooled the darkhounds available to them and sent them after Moridin.


created: 2004-08-07 23:35:04
subject: <b>Not Fain</b>
body:
As far as I know, Fain is still one of those few people who have to walk/ride to get somewhere. Although there is that incident with the Ways...<br /><br />Anyway, why would Fain be going west ? Rand is and has always been his quarry as of the Great Hunt. Rand is still in the east, and coincidentally ( ? ) at a reasonable walking/riding distance from Far Madding. After the total failure his plans of luring Rand with the torching of the Two Rivers, he knows threatening Perrin or Mat won't get Rand ( supposing there would be a way for them to ask Rand for help anyway )<br /><br />Someone's gonna have to put some serious effort into convincing me that Fain has gone east, because it just doesn't make sense for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 20:07:03
subject: <b>They are after Rand</b>
body:
I think they are very much after Rand.  At the time most people had no idea where he really was, otherwise they would have had him killed to keep him from cleansing the taint.  50 Dark hounds sounds like an act of desperation to find him before he can do so.  Where better to look than with his friend?


created: 2003-02-04 11:52:39
subject: <b>This makes sense.</b>
body:
You know, I'd never even considered the idea that maybe Mat, and not Perrin, would become King of Manetherern.  I always just assumed that because he controlls the Two Rivers, which was the site of the capitol, I think, and Gheldan, which used to be part of Manetheren, that he would become the King.  But I kind of ignored the fact that he doesn't even want to be called a lord.  Given the chance, he would probably choose to be the Prince Consort (or whatever the husband of the ruling Queen of Saldaea is called) over a King.  Perrin would make a pretty good king, I bet, but Mat is much more suited to become a noble -type dude.  He would be the kind of king that could beat the living hell out of any and all invaders, and then get the morons who took him on to sign a treaty that gave him ownership of everything but their socks, with his Ta'veren abilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 13:34:17
subject: <b>Mat, Perrin, and Setalle</b>
body:
First off, I find it unlikely that Setalle could teach Tuon to channel since she cannot, even if she used to know how. Most weaves are taught by example. Somewhere, I even remember someone saying they could tell who a sister learned a weave from by the way she wove it.<br /><br />Secondly, I don't think Perrin wants to be the bight protector. He wants his hammer back. Yeah, I know, there is the irony thing going for this theory. But IMHO after Tarmon Gaidon, there isn't going to be a blight to need to be protected from. All evil will be sealed away, and the world will again be as peacefull as it was in the Age of Legends. Perrin can go back to buildig things, mat can go gambling, and rand can try to keep his women satisfied in the bedroom if he is still alive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 13:42:52
subject: <b>Good theory.</b>
body:
I think this is a really good theory. Mat does keep having all of those Manetheren flashbacks, and his current location does encompass most of Manetheren. And I would love to see him tick Elayne off by picking up some of Andor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <br />A few minor points. We find out about Tuon's ability to train damane in WH not CoT, and I am not sure if he will want all of the responsibility of being King, but we'll see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 14:39:21
subject: <b>No I don't think so</b>
body:
First, since the viewing of Mat with an Eagle occured in the first book, I think it is more realistic to say that only has to do with his Manetheren heritage, which manifests itself later in the book (the warcry etc).<br />Secondly, if Perrin will be to busy handling Saldea, will not Mat be even more busy ruling the Seanchan?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 15:44:01
subject: <b>Very nice!</b>
body:
I like the way you are thinking!  It all makes sence now!  Great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune favors the Brave&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 16:42:54
subject: <b>Imperial Queen of the Damned</b>
body:
Asha'man Josh, thanks for the compliments!<br /><br />To ursidae: perhaps Mat could share in the governing of the Seanchan Empire in the Westlands. However, the Seanchan have an ingrained aversion to channelers of any type, so a channeling Tuon may be unacceptable to them. In addition, there are hints, especially with Beslan in WH and with Rodel Ituralde in CoT that subjugated Westlandish nations may revolt and throw off the Seanchan yoke. Light, RJ wrote a lot about how the revelation of sul'dam being able to channel would tear the entire Empire apart! So Tuon may be safer as Imperial Queen of Manetheren than as a reviled and disgraced marath'damane in Seanchan.<br /><br />To Randwashere: Nicola Treehill Foretold that when Tarmon Gai'don (the Great Battle) is done, the world would not be finished with war(&quot;...The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.&quot;--LoC,Ch14), so it's a sure bet that the Blight would still exist and Saldaea would be important in cleansing the northern lands of the Dark corruption.<br /><br />Finally, as to the notion of Setalle Anan as teacher for Tuon: this is difficult to imagine due to the fact that she was burnt out (there is more than enough clues that she was Martine Janata Sedai). She could start teaching Tuon about how to open to the sun, then once Tuon is a little more comfortable with being a channeler, Setalle could pass on the teaching to an Aes Sedai like Joline Maza, Teslyn Baradon or Edesina Azzedin. Unless, of course, someone manages to Heal a burning out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 19:29:23
subject: <b>Lets see...</b>
body:
Mat won't become king of Manetheren, this has been dealt with in a previous post.<br /><br />However, from Egwene's dreams Tuon will come to rescue her, which suggests that Tuon will become reconciled to, at the very least, channelers, if not her own channeling. As far as i am aware, Setalle Anan is as good an instructor as any.<br /><br />Guess i sort of agree with the theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 23:36:45
subject: <b>OLD TRADITIONS HAVE DIED</b>
body:
I think the one thing everyone has put out of their mind is that all the traditions that were have changed.  Rand continually tells people that he is going to change the way things were.  The Aeil are no longer in the Waste, the Shaido have thrown dirt in the fact of tradition, The Seanchan have come to a new country, Elayne is most likely going to sit on the Sun Throne, the list goes on.<br /><br />However, everyone seems hell bent of making everything back the way it was.  I think RJ will rip this world a part and things won't be all walm and cosy the way they were of yesteryear.  This whole book is about change and I can't see how going back and living in the past keeps with his particular thread of things.<br /><br />I think Perrin will end up being king of Saldaea and also take Baerelon and the Two Rivers and Ghealdan under his rule.<br /><br />


created: 2003-02-05 01:45:45
subject: <b>perrinfan makes a good point.</b>
body:
RJ has already ripped this world apart.  Saidin has been cleansed, whether anyone believes it or not.  The Kin have been found.  The Wise Ones and Windfinders revealed as channelers.  The White Tower will never be the same.  Tarabon, Arad Doman, and Amadicia have been irrevocably altered.  Altara is likely changed forever as well.<br /><br />&quot;The land divided by the Return&quot; is one of many prophecies/foretellings that indicate that the Seanchan will remain in the Westlands for the foreseeable future.  This will probably also lead to &quot;a world not done with war&quot;.<br /><br />Back to the original theory: I like it.  But as much as I'd like to see Mat on the throne of Manetheran (mainly to annoy Elayne), I don't see any strong evidence for it.  That's not to say it won't happen, just that we can't know for sure with our current information.  Part of the reason for Mat's popularity is that his storyline is the least predictable.  I have no idea where he's going to end up.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 06:42:39
subject: <b>what to say?</b>
body:
1. We knew taht she could learn to channel from WH<br />2. Why on Earth would Mat make Manetheren? It is not supposed to be there for another seven turnings of the wheel (or is it six? I can never make it work). There is absolutely no reason why Manetheren should be rebuilt in this age of the next or the one after that or ... you get my point<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 22:01:39
subject: <b>As pointed out above</b>
body:
Setalle Anan canNOT teach Tuon to channel, because she's burnt out. Women who are burnt out can no longer sense the Source, and cannot act as sul'dam, as opposed to stilled women, who can at least sense feelings through an a'dam. Setalle can't as the incident with Joline demonstrated. I agree with an earlier theory that her role will be to help Tuon acclimatise to the mainland customs, and also to teach her that all Aes Sedai aren't bad. She seems to be Tuon's friend, and when Tuon finds out she was once Aes Sedai, it will help her adjust to her own ability to channel. <br />Also, I doubt that all the Seanchan-conquered territories are going to throw off the yoke - there has been a lot mentioned about how Tarabon is much more settled, the people there are happy, and about how the Corenne is so damn big that getting rid of it is simply not an option. I think that at least part of Randland will remain Seanchan-ruled, although whether the Corenne/Hailene under Tuon secedes from the Empire is another question. It's definitely possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 02:34:40
subject: <b>Okay...</b>
body:
1. To the author.....in Mat's flashback while being healed and separated from SG daggar, he is the KING not a general.  It seems I will have to post this and evidense again so that everyone can understand this.<br />2. Why can't Mat restore Manetheren?  The old flags are being flown as we speak.  Why do so many believe that it won't happen.  Perrin has brought it back by displaying the flags.  The hard part is done.<br />3.  Why do people believe Setalle Anan can Channel?  Where's all this so called proof that so many hint at but never reveal.  We see Setalle Anan's point of view and it doesn't even hint at her being able to channel.  Setalle Anan's role is to dispel the myths the Seanchen have of women who can channel. A middle woman you might say. The presence of Aes Sedai in the group will also help Toun change beliefs she's held about women channelers.  Setalle Anan is the first step for Toun.  A soft sell.<br />4.  I lost my train of thought and its late, so I will get back to this thread later.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 04:55:30
subject: <b>Amending, but not backing down.</b>
body:
1.  I don't think we need to really debate as to whether or not Setalle could ever channel.  If she is the one who is no longer, that means she could channel/was Aes Sedai.  Unless there is another position she could have held which would have given her this kind of distinction.  Yes, she's a buffer for Tuon, but that simply <i>can't</i> be all.<br /><br />2.  I didn't really think that Setalle would teach Tuon how to be Aes Sedai, only that she would be the one who would open up Tuon to touching the One Power.  Once she was filled with the life of it, do you think she'd ever turn back?  Probably not.  Then there are the other AS there to teach her once she actually touches it.  And maybe that's where these women will have importance in terms of being weighed by Mat.  Could be...<br /><br />3.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think that RJ is rebuilding a destroyed earth, no matter what Age the Wheel is on.  Manetheren was destroyed in this Age, why couldn't it be rebuilt in the Fourth Age and destroyed again in the Fifth Age?  There aren't really any rules to it, I don't think.  It could be destroyed and rebuilt in every Age.  It makes perfect sense to me that old powers rise again, especially where the Old Blood runs strong.  And great powers wiped out by the Shadow return to fight the shadow again.  Say...a red eagle kind of looks like a Phoenix, doesn't it...?<br /><br />4.  One thing that I thought of right after I wrote this was that while the knowledge that <i>sul'dam</i> can channel might nearly destroy the Seanchan, I hadn't really considered the fact that they might try to cover it up and just shun Tuon.  We do know they're not leaving, they've left settlers, but will they be happy taking the Almoth Plain and staying there?  I doubt it.  Mat's marriage to her is one of alliance (which is another reason why he has to be the King of Manetheren), and possibly love, too.  However, if there is to be an alliance, it must be to a powerful nation, no?  The Seanchan would not respect someone just because he leads an army of ten thousand.  Hmmm...what nation could Mat represent...?<br /><br />5. I don't actually think Perrin will lead the Band (if this was an issue), remember Egwene sees him leading an army of thousands of wolves.  However, I can see Mat assimilating Perrin's group into the Band and taking up the flag of Manetheren.<br /><br />6.  I honestly didn't know that we found out Tuon could channel in WH.  I guess that's because it was so frickin' boring I just didn't catch it.<br /><br />That's all for now.  I'm still all aglow about having my first theory posted.  Whee!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Josh <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark,<br />and the great sword of justice defend us.<br />Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.<br />- from <i>Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-07 14:41:39
subject: <b>mat as king</b>
body:
mat has been tied to Manetheren since book one.  it makes obvious sense, even to most casual reader, to believe it would be him that would rebuild the old great nation and become king.  sure, perrin has the red eagle banner out, but he's going to become leader of the wolves and is already tied to the broken crown of saldaea.  also, remember the tradition that the king of Manetheren marries a woman who can channel.  enter tuon.  it just makes perfect sense.<br /><br />by the way.  the killing of the renegade ashaman. padan fain. the reappearance of mat.  the long awaited appearance of tuon, the daughter of the nine moons.  the acceptance/bonding of ashaman by the aes sedai.  the forsaken coffee hour.  the duel:  lan v. riatin.  the killing of arangar/dashiva.  the cleansing of saidin.  the entire last chapter.  anyone who thinks WINTER'S HEART is/was boring is crazy.


created: 2003-02-08 21:32:19
subject: <b>On Tuon channeling...</b>
body:
I think that the possibility of Setalle Anan teaching Tuon to open to the True Source is very plausible. For one, I'd like to point out that when the girls we've seen are taught to embrace the source, which they are taught before they are taught any weaves, they are talked through embracing the source. They are not normally taught weaves until they can embrace the source reliably. I think that Setalle Anan would be able to teach this to Tuon even if she is burnt out.<br />As far as learning weaves goes everyone seems to be forgetting that Tuon was trained damane, and as we've seen in earlier books the sul'dam can tell exactly what the damane is doing. This likely means that the sul'dam can actually see the weaves that the damane is making. Therefore, Tuon may already know some weaves although she may not have recognized them for what they were when she learned them.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  If you're going to have delusions, you may as well for the really satisfying ones.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />   A Rough Whimper of Insanity   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 01:08:25
subject: <b>The previous post got me thinking...</b>
body:
Once suldam are convinced they can channel will they in effect be as fully trained as damane, or will they still have to learn everything?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eventually, I will drive you all mad.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-09 18:38:54
subject: <b>Tuon channeling?</b>
body:
I'm wondering where everyone got this idea that Tuon could channel.  When she was on her way over on the ship, there's a passage where she makes up to a damane that she punished because she didn't like the foretelling that she had done.  In that passage it says that Tuon liked working with damane so much that she had even had herself tested to see if she could be a sul'dam.  If she could channel, she would have tested positive and be a sul'dam.  At one point she compares training damane with training horses.  I'm not sure what Setalle's purpose is, but I don't think it has anything to do with teaching Tuon how to channel.


created: 2003-02-09 23:32:50
subject: <b>to egweniac</b>
body:
in COT, mat is pondering the fact that tuon has commented on enjoying training horses and damane.  in order to train damane, one must be able to channel.  i think her punishing her damane for the foretelling had something to do with her (tuon's) ability to channel or marriage to mat.


created: 2003-02-10 05:16:34
subject: <b>Why Setalle?</b>
body:
Why Setalle Anan teaching Tuon? Any Aes Sedi or Sul'dam with them at the moment could do a better job. Just because she hasn't done anything yet? Either have a lot of rather major characters (eg Soreila, Avi - besides from sleep with Rand, Bael, Gaul, etc etc). Maybe she is prohpericied because of a special talent she has, eg researching all those ter'angreal she did before she was burnt out. She gets healed by Nyv, uses some Dream Ter'angreal in some way to save the day - dah-da!<br /><br />I think that Mat being king is what RJ started out to do, but he has definately changed that now, Perrin is way better set up for that. Mat would hate going back to the Two Rivers now, and he hasn't their respect anyway.


created: 2003-02-17 18:38:25
subject: <b>Tuon and the spark</b>
body:
I don't think Tuon can channel, but I do believe she has &quot;the spark&quot;, much in the same way Egwene did when Morainne first tested her way back in the first book. I think the same can be said of all Suldam, none can channel (otherwise they'd be picked up as Damane) but they all have the potential, the spark, that given proper training can develop into the ability to channel.<br /><br />Just out of interest, is there any mention anywhere of Suldam dying early or losing their ability to train Damane? I only ask because of the observation that Girls with the spark in them will likely burn themselves out or die young without the proper training.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 23:46:42
subject: <b>Setalle has already done plenty</b>
body:
Setalle has done quite a bit already to merit having been prophesized.  If it weren't for her, Elayne and Nynaeve wouldn't have met the Kin, and then they wouldn't have found the Bowl, the weather would still be rather close to broiling in winter, they wouldn't have combined with the Sea Folk (to use the Bowl) and and we wouldn't have gotten to see Mat out-Taverenize the now sadly deceased Nesta.  Setalle may well have lots more to do in this series, but that WOULDN'T be because she hasn't done anything ELSE yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-27 14:06:43
subject: <b>good ideas, but...</b>
body:
You seem to have a lot of good ideas except for a couple of points.  By my understanding of the whole feeling of kinship between women who could channel, it was a feel ing between woman who could already channel or where born with the spark. Its not mentioned anywhere that the kinship applies to women who can only learn to channel. Second, The band of the red hand would never accept Perrin as a general in place of Mat.  Mat is their good luck charm and knows war far better then Perrin.  Why accept a substitute when you can have the real deal?


created: 2003-04-04 11:26:10
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
Nathanwind has a good point about the feeling between women who can channel and those who have the spark, if they could sense the women who needed to be taught to channel why would they need to test for it. <br /><br />Also a good point about the band of the red hand. I'm not sure but didn't Aemon himself lead the core group of manantheran in battle. Also in EoW Perrin and Rand start teasing Mat about being Aemon reborn untill Thom tells them to be quiet and not to talk about it because he wasn't sure it was possible which we know it is now because Rand is LTT.<br /><br />Lastly when Mat yells out his warcry when the group charges down on the line of trollocs in EoW it translated as &quot;For the honor of the red eagle, For the honor of the rose of the sun, The rose of the sun&quot; Aemons wife (i forget her real name) was called the &quot;Rose of the Sun&quot; this also supports the possibility of Mat being Aemon or raising Manantheran<br /><br />As stated earlier Perrin is tied to the Broken Crown and Mat to the red eagle why would perrin raise Manantheran?<br />This comes from mins viewings in EoW<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 09:08:56
subject: <b>setalle is Aes Sedai? please furnish more details....</b>
body:
i quote from a post above by Gaedan:<br /><br />&quot;Finally, as to the notion of Setalle Anan as teacher for Tuon: this is difficult to imagine due to the fact that she was burnt out (there is more than enough clues that she was Martine Janata Sedai).&quot;<br /><br />who's that? who's &quot;Martine Janata Sedai&quot;? (this is the first time i've heard of this name). pleasse furnish more details, like which book suggested it. thanks.


created: 2003-05-06 01:16:20
subject: <b>Martine</b>
body:
For Teryne,<br /><br />Martine is mentioned somewhere in one of the Elayne passages, in which she is playing around with the ter'angreal.  I can't remember whether this is before or after her &quot;hilariously embarassing&quot; scene.  Needless to say, someone chides Elayne sharply for her devil-may-care attitude, mentioning Martine as an example of someone who also delved into the secrets of mysterious ter'angreal - and paid the price.  Martine is said to have been found unconscious one day after having conducted some tragic experiment, burnt out.  She then vanished eeriely and no one had seen her since.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-09 09:31:29
subject: <b>It was...</b>
body:
In tPoD, right before they were about to &quot;right&quot; the weather, one of the old sisters warns about her.


created: 2003-05-17 16:22:36
subject: <b>Asha`man Josh</b>
body:
Congratulations on your 1st Theory post!<br /><br />Maybe Mat will be reborn sometime in the distant future as King Eamon, but I don`t see it happening now.  <br /><br />mierin sedai:  another 6 turnings.  Also in WH, from Tuon`s POV, we learned that she had trained Mylen, the captured AS whom Tuon had purchase on the block.  Mylen is now in the search party for Tuon, headed by Furyk Karede.<br /><br />The Taint:  you`ll have to find a new name-you`re toast now!<br /><br />Egweniac:  Tuon was tested and passed the Sul`dam part-- which the Empress of TNM, may she live forever, chose to ignore, thereby allowing Tuon to remain DotNM.  Also, those captured and now in Andor can see the flows woven by Rianne {and shed tears over the fact}.<br /><br />Teryn:  Martine was mentioned by Vandene AS while waiting on the other side of the Gateway held by Avi in PoD hc page 75.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-20 19:27:48
subject: <b>I don't buy it.</b>
body:
I think it is out of Matt's character to become King of Mantheran.  For one, he hates the responsibility almost as much as Perrin.  Also, there is a little problem of that the Two Rivers is going to be the center of a revived Mantheran (which I think would have to take in Baeleron, pissing Elayne off to no end).  Elayne states in book one, &quot;The people of the Two Rivers can be lead, if they think you are worthy.&quot;  This leads to the crux of my point.  Mat does not have the respect or influence with Gheldean or the Two Rivers needed to make him King.  Perrin cannot simply hand this sort of influence over to him.  And it is my contention that there is not enough time for all this to happen, unless RJ starts resolving his plots in a quick, very un-RJ like way.<br /><br />I apologize if this made no sense, or has already been pointed out. <br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Dancing Joker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />   Newbie Extraordinar<br />


created: 2004-10-03 18:40:46
subject: <b>Okay... Clarification</b>
body:
This is driving me nuts.  Yes, Tuon can channel.  In CoT, Mat asks her what she does for fun, and she answers that she enjoys training horses and damane.  In order to train damane, you must be a sul'dam, and  therefore, Tuon can channel.<br /><br />Another thing:  The &quot;spark&quot; is what Egwene, Nyn, Elayne, Avi, etc. have.  It's the innate ability to channel.  Rand and Logain, too, for that matter.  This is DIFFERENT than being able to LEARN how to channel, like Tuon and all the other sul'dam.  Think back to Tanchico, when Elayne is talking to Egeanin:  &quot;I cannot sense the ability in you [the spark], but perhaps you can learn how to channel.&quot; (TSR, p754, brackets mine)  This SENSING of the ability to channel is how Moiraine found Eggy and Nyn in the Two Rivers.  Once again, the &quot;spark&quot; is not the same as being able to learn.<br /><br />Just wanted to clear that up...


created: 2004-10-03 18:48:37
subject: <b>Sorry to dissapoint you, but...</b>
body:
No, Setalle Anan CANNOT feel the &quot;kinship&quot; with Tuon.  That feeling of sameness comes only from untutored channelers with the &quot;spark,&quot; not with the ones that can learn.<br /><br />1.  This is why Elayne wonders whether Egeanin can learn to channel.  She instantly knows she doesn't have the spark, because there isn't that kinship feeling.<br /><br />2.  Moiraine feels the &quot;kinship&quot; with Nynaeve and Egwene in the Two Rivers right off the bat, but NOT from, say, Lara Ayellin, who is one of the Novices Verin picks up in the Two Rivers later.  Lara is not one of the novices with the spark in LOC (that's Bode, Elle, and Jancy only).<br /><br />3.  Egwene feels this &quot;kinship&quot; with Aviendha from the moment she meets her.  This clinches it:  &quot;Abruptly, Egwene know why she had felt such a kinship with Aviendha from the first...Aviendha could channel.  Like herself, like Elayne and Nynaeve -- and Moiraine, for that matter -- she was one of those rare women who not only could be taught to channel, but who had the ability born in her, so she would touch the True Source eventually whether she knew what she was doing or not.&quot; (TSR, p 37<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In conclusion, this kinship can ONLY be felt between a (female) channeller and a untutored channeller with the &quot;spark.&quot;  Not between Setalle Anan and Tuon.  Sorry.


created: 2004-10-19 18:21:06
subject: <b>it's possible...</b>
body:
1. Just because Perrin is the Lord of the Two Rivers right now doesn't mean he's staying like that. When he arrived at the TR, Mat just had holes in his memory and spouted the Old Tongue without realizing it, and spent his days gambling, drinking, and messing around with the servants. OBVIOUSLY the TR people would NEVER take him seriously. Maybe Perrin's purpose was just to get the TR accustomed to a Lord, so that they can have a KING <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />2. Tuon will NOT become Queen of Manetheren, for the love of God, what would THAT do? The Seanchan are here to STAY. And unless they have somebody keeping Seanchan and Dragonsworn in check, the two peoples are going to butt heads and war until all land is dominated under their rule; nothing will stop THAT from happening. And if ANYBODY else rules except Tuon, nothing will be able to keep the two on firm ground. So obviously Mat's going to be the peacemaker (to put it loosely) because he has close (VERY close) ties to both Rand and Tuon (who WILL become Empress.)<br /><br />3. Changing? Yes, the world is changing. BACK to the way it was. The Seanchan are back, the Dragon is back, the Forsaken are loose, the Dark One is loose. Saidin is cleansed. Heck, even BIRGITTE is back. Shall I go on? I can.<br /><br />4. I will be sorely pissed off if Tuon can channel (everybody seems to be able to channel, lately) and it'll just make things a lot easier. But, if she COULD channel, then she's going to find a way to get the Seanchan to deal with it. If the Aiel can deal with being Tinkers, the Seanchan can deal with the idea that some people can learn to channel. Granted, that's closing it in tight for a book, but I sorely doubt the Seanchan will stay the way they are. You all keep talking about change, why can't the Seanchan change? Why can't the Two Rivers change?<br /><br />5. Mat can't be Tuon's warder (and all Kings of Manetheren were WARDERS, not just HUSBANDS.) That's cutting it too far from his personality. I can understand his marrying her, but being her warder? Not likely. Plus, warders are something AES SEDAI have. Not every woman who can channel are Aes Sedai - do the Wise Ones have Warders? Do the Windfinders have Warders? No, so why should Tuon? And for that matter, who's going to clue her in on the history of Manetheren? Mat certainly won't, and I doubt the Seanchan will, either. <br /><br />6. This is a little of topic, but I always suspected Perrin might become a Tinker. Or a Wolfbrother like Elyas. After all, he certainly gives them enough interest (especially being a Tinker; he's always talking about how the Way of the Leaf should have a chance, and all that goodstuff.) Plus, Rand and Mat are always praying that at least Perrin can get away from all the ta'veren nonsense. They hardly think the same about each other, in my opinion. But that's just wishful thinking for ya, with likely no chance of happening <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-02 11:15:21
subject: <b>tuon can't channel</b>
body:
the novels clearly say that Tuon was tested twice to see if she could be sul'dam. if she had passed either then she would have become a sul'dam...which she hasn't. her training damane was not through the  use of a'dam but through the other methods constantly mentioned such as, new names, pairing new damane with older and more experienced, etc, etc. since she can't learn to channel then she cant become aes sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder<br />We danced among the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 10:38:11
subject: <b>Manatheren</b>
body:
With Toun soon to be Empress of Seanchan, and Matt now the Prince of Ravens and the husband of Toun.  We will see Manatheren fall into Matt's hands due to the deal between Perrin and the Seanchan to free Faile, where he traded Manatheren fo their help.


created: 2007-08-22 22:51:51
subject: <b>Perrin gave up claims on Manetheren</b>
body:
Mat could become King of Manetheren because All claims from Perrin were given up to the Seanchean.  Perrin did that in order to secure their help with freeing Faile.


created: 2009-04-26 17:56:19
subject: <b>Lineage</b>
body:
Totally makes sense. Also, in the first book, it's implied that Mat is probably descended from the kings of Manetheren. I find it interesting that his distaste for nobles doesn't emerge until AFTER he learns that-if you'll remember, he was all ga-ga over &quot;Lady Moiraine&quot; when she first appeared in Emond's Field...Of course, that's sort of forgotten in excitement of Shadar Logoth, but I always thought it was interesting that RJ makes such a point of sort of implying it might be Mat the Trollocs are after before they know Rand can channel because of bloodlines.


created: 2003-02-05 14:11:24
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Well, I must admit that Loial never occurred to me here.  I like it, but disagree.  My biggest reason is that it just doesn't seem right.  I know that is not a very valid response, so I have a couple of comments about.<br /><br />1.  Loial has been on this mission for less than a year - hardly the long time that the DH have been hunting. (I don't know exactly when Rand sent Loial on the mission, but it was sometime in aCoS I believe, chronolgoically probably only a couple of months prior to this)<br /><br />2.  How would the shadow know to look for Loial or know of his mission.  The mission was done in secrecy - very few people know of this.  I can only think of the 2 on the mission, Rand, Min, possibly Perrin and Faile, possibly Bashere, others?.<br /><br />3.  I think that the ways are loosing most of their usefullness to the shadow.  Travelling has been reintroduced into the world, and likely this will be the primary means of transportion for the shadowspawn when they begin their invasion.  It seems likely that Taim is currently training new dreadlords and the BA will provide the rest.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 15:25:12
subject: <b>Not Loial</b>
body:
I totally disagree with this theory. Nothing has been written that Loial has ever even been acknowledged as existing by any of the Forsaken. And since the ways have been shown to feed upon trolloc armies as well there is little need to use it with it Travelling available to them.<br />And the sheer number of the hounds indicates a much more formidable target. Even if a stedding was roused to fight them it would take only a small number to hold off the Ogiers while one or two sought the target. Remember that only a few entered into Rhuidean amidst an army of Aiel. And since the hounds don't enter the steddings and the Ogiers don't come out, except Loial, then so many are not needed. Finally, Even with Travelling, I would think the hounds would have eventually caught Loial as he would have to be at each stedding for a few days as Ogier take as much time to listen as they do to talk and he would probably be journeying in a somewhat direct path between the steddings instead of hopping madly about Randland. Thus the hounds would mostly be on the right path and would be waiting when he exited to Travel. He never mentioned seeing them when he visited Rand.


created: 2003-02-05 15:46:15
subject: <b>But remember</b>
body:
Loial is with an Ashaman.  Specifically so he could travel.  Thus, the Darkhounds don't lose his trail so much as he jumps a huge distance away in some random direction, because he travelled.<br /><br />Tim


created: 2003-02-05 17:10:51
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
You have a very interesting theory, but I have to disagree... Where would the darkhounds have picked up Loial's trail?  We all know that shadowspawn can't enter a stedding, and Loial was probably traveling from just outside one stedding to just outside the next.  Therefore, the darkhounds would not have been able to pick up his scent in the first place because he spent so little time outside of the steddings.


created: 2003-02-05 18:48:37
subject: <b>Nice thinking, but I doubt it.</b>
body:
I don't think Loial is considered any where near important enough for 50 darkhounds. I think 10 darkhounds would be enough to wipe out the entire population of even the largest stedding. simply because ogiers can't channel. Remember when Rand fought the hounds in Rhuidean, he carved them up, and they just reformed again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 23:39:05
subject: <b>doubtful</b>
body:
I like the thoery, but I can't think of how the Shadowspawn would have found out about Loial's mission.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 01:17:49
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
50 darkhounds for Loial and one Ashaman!? Rand only got a pack. Plus I remember reading that using more that two packs (9-12 in a pack) of darkhounds was rare cause they would start fightig each other and there are 50! in this group that is more than two packs. I think the target is FAIN!


created: 2003-02-06 02:16:22
subject: <b>Of all the possibles...</b>
body:
....I have to agree with you that Loial is the most likely Target.  All I can say is the Theory feels right to me.<br /><br />Everyone else Rand, Mat, Fain etc. have people hunting them already.  People that have a better chance of success.  The darkhounds have failed with these people before, why send them again?<br /><br />Orange ajah on another the other thread had interesting comments as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 04:13:13
subject: <b>Good point but.....</b>
body:
50 DARKHOUNDS, i repeat 50 DARKHOUNDS for 1 oghier and 1 asha-man, i dont think so.<br /><br />Although honestly i wont be overlly suprissed if your right.<br /><br />but im pretty sure your wrong because the is way OVERkill!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 05:27:14
subject: <b>Just very unlikely</b>
body:
I think this is unlikely, and I would like to add to the arguments against it that the stedding Loial mentioned are quite a long way from Ghealdan. Secondly, about 50 Darkhounds being neccesary to kill an Ashaman, I would say it's overkill since there is no reason to believe that Karldin can to use balefire, so he is simply not dangerous enough to warrant so many hounds.


created: 2003-02-06 09:24:05
subject: <b>uh, NO!</b>
body:
wow, this theory is a total shock to me.  almost as much as the one about hanlon killing fain in COT!  still, it was nicely thought it, but i don't think that the dark one would send 50 darkhounds for loial and 1 ashaman.  of course, we've all been wrong before.  as for your reasoning, sure the darkhounds have been losing the trail every so often, but remember this.  in the beginning of the books, whenever rand channeled, fain would lose his &quot;scent&quot; of him.  i remember distinctly him saying that rand's presense would sometimes just disappear from his super awareness of him(rand).  i'm wondering if this can be turned around and whenever fain uses his &quot;newly&quot; found powers, his awareness, scent, whatever disappears from the people hunting him.  fain as the target just makes total sense to me because he HAS been hunted by the dark one's minions (and the forsaken, for that matter) for almost the entire length of the series.  good job keeping us on our toes, just the same!


created: 2003-02-06 09:32:44
subject: <b>Interesting, but I have to disagree as well</b>
body:
I like your theory, but I disagree due to lack of proof.<br /><br />We don't know the path Loial has taken during his journey, so there's nothing to suggest that he was in the south recently. He could have started in the south and worked his way around for all we know. However, we cannot say that he wasn't recently in the south either.<br /><br />We don't know the extent of Karldin's power, so we cannot say whether or not he would be a big enough threat to warrant 50 Darkhounds.<br /><br />What we do know is that Ogier are peaceful by nature, at least in the Westlands. 50 Darkhounds would not be necessary to take on a stedding of Ogier, especially since 1 Darkhound is hard enough to kill with the One Power.<br /><br />We also know that shadowspawn don't like steddings. Whether its due to them being made with the Power, or something else entirely, they shy away from steddings.<br /><br />So, with all of that said, it seems unlikely that the Darkhounds are after Loial with knowledge of his mission.


created: 2003-02-06 20:02:40
subject: <b>Rebutal</b>
body:
<br />1.  Timing:  Masuri states &quot;the hunt has been going on for some time&quot; and when Samitsu encounters Loial at Cairhein approximately a week later she states of him &quot;He left Cairhien some months past...&quot;.  Neither statement sets a time frame, and both are vague to the same degree.  Not definate proof, but this means the chronology can apply to Loial.<br />2.  Secret Mission:  Maybe the best arguement against but Samitsu knew Loial and Karldin by name and the fact they left Cairhien secondhand...&quot;I had already heard&quot;.  This implies Loial and Karldin leaving together didn't go unnoticed.  While Cadsuane's cadre didn't know the mission objective, the Shadow's spies are everywhere and it is not inconcievable for the mission to be known.      <br />3.  Ways Useless to The Shadow:  Another good arguement but I believe the DO would be interested in protecting a tool used since the beginning of the series.  Also, as I stated, a big concern would be a possible Rand-Ogier alliance.<br />4.  Loial unknown to the Forsaken/Shadow:  Lanfear as Selen and more importantly Aginor as Dashiva know of him and other DF spies would know of him, he's been around Rand almost since the beginning.  <br />5. 50 Darkhound Overkill:  Another strong point but remember at the eye of the world Loial sings over the Green Man's grave and states the area will always be protected from the blight.  This shows Ogier have power over the forces of the DO.<br />6.  Even with traveling the DH's would have caught Loial by now:  If this applies to Loial and Karldin, then this would definately apply to all possible targets.  They have been moving around as much or more than any others.<br />7.  How would DH's pick up Loial's trail?:  This may be a good point but I don't know how DH's are given thier prey's scent.  Anyone remember anything?<br /><br />Thanks for the feedback...


created: 2003-02-10 05:22:01
subject: <b>Ways useless to the DO</b>
body:
No, they aren't. In an interview, someone asked RJ why everyone used the ways to move Trollocs, and why not just open a couple of gateways straight into Illian, Tear and the White Tower (for example). And RJ said RAFO. Implying there is a reason why Travelling cannot be used for this purpose. Besides from which, the ways have been used several times by the shadow so far? Why - Travelling is only new to the good guys.


created: 2003-02-16 20:46:11
subject: <b>Attack of the Ogier</b>
body:
in regards to the Ogier defending themselves from Darkhounds.<br />how do they do this ? <br />To kill a darkhound you need balefire or something pretty powerful. I'm not convinced that the Ogier would win or survive.


created: 2003-02-17 18:29:55
subject: <b>Fain</b>
body:
It has to be Fain, he's the only one dangerous enough to be hunted in this manner.<br /><br />Some have discounted the possibility of it being Fain because he is already being hunted by others, but you're all presuming that the Forsaken are working together with complete trust. That's somewhat unlikely, in fact its quite conceivable that different forsaken have private plans to attack the same target, or it could just be insurance (if 1 doesn't get him then the other should)<br /><br /><br /><br />Just out of interest (and before you all slate me for this I don't believe it to be the case) what are the chances that one of the other forsaken are trying to hunt down slayer? None at all? Thought not...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 14:37:14
subject: <b>Comment of Adrian</b>
body:
I would know a *VERY* reason for the DO to want to keep access to the Ways, especially if they want to Storm the WT, Caemlyn or Cairhien or any other major cities for that matter...<br /><br />Traveling can be detected, wards can be placed (like Sammael did in Illian and Rahvin in Caemlyn), while basically no one even remembers the ways... Great way to enter undetected until the last moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 13:26:23
subject: <b>I don't agree but,</b>
body:
First, I don't think Loial is a target (at least by Darkhounds) because he is traveling.  If we assume that his mission is known by the bad guys and the bad guys know that he is traveling then sending darkhounds after him seems like a bad idea to me.  If darkhounds follow scent then how would they be able to smell where he had been or where he was going.  Once you travel, you could be anywhere on the planet.  Then the darkhounds have to figure out where you've gone and get to that point.  I'm assuming that the distilling done to Fain so that he could track Rand (and the other two) way back when is a very difficult and time consuming thing to do.  So, why do it to darkhounds?  I've never read anything hinting that darkhounds have some 'power' or inborn whatever to do it on their own.<br /><br />But it is an interesting theory in that it brings up a good point.  Does anyone have any good ideas of what Ogier do to stop shadowspawn?  Loial was able to protect the site of the Green Man, but he is an unusual Ogier (he is a tree singer).  I'm quite sure that Ogier have some ability to protect themselves, though.  It has been hinted at time and time again that despite their peaceful nature now, they have been in the past (and in the present over in Seanchan) fierce fighters.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Either way, I wouldn't want to make Loial angry.  You wouldn't like it if he was angry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 07:32:35
subject: <b>Don't know</b>
body:
I don't know, but I have a comment on the 'Loial vs. DH's' thingy:<br /><br />Didn't Loial defend all the children of the Stone back in TSR?<br /><br />And wasn't he, along with Gaul, also able to reach the Waygate of Maneteren and close it, before racing back and participating in the defense of Emonds Field, despite the fact that the entire Westwood was cravling with Trollocs and their Myrdraal?<br /><br />Not the kind of guy I would call defenseless... and, if you think a little about the fact that he's just a boy by Ogier standards, just think what an entire stedding 'filled' with Ogier could do...<br /><br />But I agree on one point: 50 DH's is quite a bunch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Shadow at Noon<br /><br />Economic liberalism and social darwinism has unnervingly much in common...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 13:33:30
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
I am actually first?! Wow..<br />To your theory: I like it! I never thought of that really! I have been wondering what the thing is about the saa but it never occured to me to connect it to Ishy's lack of eyes in TDR..<br />About Fades and souls. Trollocs have souls. Myrdraal may be offsprings of Trolloc breeding but Trollocs are afraid of them. And certainly not only because they are cooler. I think they can use the TP and who says that Myrdraal have souls like Trollocs do? It could be a reason why Trollocs (and humans) fear Myrdraal that much: a (more or less)soulless (there could be tiny bits left..) IS frightening.<br />But after all, there must be something left of a soul in a Myrdraal since Machin Shin does threaten Myrdraal too!<br /><br />Still, like the theory! Well done


created: 2003-02-06 13:58:56
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
it is plausible that they would use their humanity, which does not have to be the same as the soul<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 15:56:13
subject: <b>Mat?</b>
body:
Maybe... I have to say, this made me think of Mat with an eye on the balance scale. I kinda doubt he'll start using the true power, though.


created: 2003-02-06 17:03:41
subject: <b>What about the Grey Men?</b>
body:
The theory sounds plausible, but I'm not sure about the connection between eyes and soul.  The Grey Men are assassins who have given their soul to the Dark One.  They would appear to be normal enough that they can be almost invisible.  That implies they have eyes, yet they have no soul.<br /><br />Also what about the Ogier whose soul had been eaten by Machin Shin?  Again, he isn't described as being eyeless.<br /><br />Having said that, the link between the TP and losing your eyes/soul sounds more plausible.


created: 2003-02-06 20:22:36
subject: <b>Mat and the TP</b>
body:
great line of thought. It would be nice to look back over the descriptions of the Myddraal to see if their are further connections. What do the wolves call the Myddraal? Perhaps the lack of a soul is why the wolves hate them so much.<br />I also think that we know the vision of Mat gambling with the DO and an eye on a scale. Perhaps he gives it up for a something of the TP to destroy the Gholam other than his medallion.<br />My vote for best original post this year.


created: 2003-02-06 21:11:06
subject: <b>Excellent Theory</b>
body:
This is the best stuff I've seen in quite a while.<br /><br />I don't really have alot of comments, but you made some excellent connections that I have never seen made before. <br /><br />I like it.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 21:42:42
subject: <b>I agree....</b>
body:
I have always thought Moridin/Ishamael lost his eyes, but I couldn't tell if it was from the OP or the TP.  We know that the OP has side effects (agelessness, advacned age) but we don't know if there are negative ones.  Ishi got was partially free for a long LONG time so losing his eyes could be from 3000 years from either source, as I bet OP or TP can eat flesh equally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If I lived in the WoT universe, I would be the a HUGE Rock Star. My sign - a black anarchy symbol, crossed with a red guitar, neck to the left, on a field of white. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> of the WORLD<br />bard to the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-07 11:07:13
subject: <b>Thanks for the support...</b>
body:
to everyone who likes my theory and expressed it here. I'm happy so many agree with it.<br />Especially thanks to matrimony cauthon cause I admire many of your theories and thoughts about WoT. It makes me a bit proud that you like my theory (I hope this doesn't sound as if I'm a creep, but I just wanted to say that...)!<br /><br />Anyway, I would be glad to read more opinions, criticism, support or counterarguments to my thoughts. <br /><br />Post whatever you want! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-07 11:44:17
subject: <b>possible implications</b>
body:
A couple thoughts come to mind regarding the fisher and possible implications from this.<br /><br />The fisher is appearantly blind - he is wearing a bandage around the eyes I believe.<br /><br />If the fisher does represent Rand/Dragon...<br /><br />-Is this blindness a result of true power usage?  Did he 'go to the darkside' and repent...losing his eyes in the process.  Maybe, he never repented. What does this tell us about the fisher, where it comes from, and what Rand will/might do?<br /><br />Maybe the fisher actually represents Ishy...<br /><br />I've never thought this before now, but maybe the fisher is Ishy and not Rand.  It seems that Ishy is always reporn as the head of the forces of the DO.  Maybe he always uses the TP too much and goes blind.  What does this tell us about the fisher, where it comes from, and what Ishy/Moridin will/might do?<br /><br />I'm certainly not convinced that either of these is the case, but it could make for some interesting discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-02-07 12:42:53
subject: <b>...as well as the rest of your body</b>
body:
I think this in an excellent theory.  Here's something else that might support it.  Remember that Ishamael's body decayed very quickly.  This could be another side effect of True Power usage, as the Dark One's power seems to flourish in (as well as cause) decay.  This property can be seen in CoT, with the rotting and infestation of food, even food that had been shielded by the One Power.  This example definitely lends some support to a physical, not just metaphysical, effect of the True Power on a human being.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-07 14:49:20
subject: <b>Good theory. But...</b>
body:
Why do the SAA destroy the optic fibers?  Do the act like a virus, eating away(physically) little by little at the soft tissue of the eye.  Or is it a metaphysical change?<br /><br />To play with your very good theory, I would say that the SAA are like a toxin that slowly, physically eat away at ALL soft tissue inside the human body.  This would explain why the fire could be seen from Ishy's mouth as well as his eyes.  Since no medical exam was preformed on Ishy after Rand had skeweded him, we dont know if Ishy was completely hollow or just lacking eyes and soft tissue of the mouth.  It would be cool to think that once a channeler got so deep in to using the TP that physically they could not stop or they would die.  <br /><br />Great theory....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 00:31:10
subject: <b>Kudos</b>
body:
Just wanted to say great original theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 04:19:02
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
I think cynic79 you are be right about the destroying touch of the DO. You just have to look at the dead Blight to see what happens through his presence! <br />The TP channelers's body degenerates and dies because of the DO's influence.<br /><br />Cool idea, Angus MacFatty, it remindes me of the X-files. Now when I think about it the saa look the same as this extraterrestrial virus which attacks people in the X-files (if you know the X-files you understand what I want to say..). <br /><br />To kfc: Yes, the connection to the fisher is really interesting but keep in my mind that Ishamamel or Myrddraal have no eyes but aren't blind, they can see! Probably another effect of the TP.


created: 2003-02-08 16:26:22
subject: <b>Good Work!</b>
body:
Nice to see a new Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 05:31:02
subject: <b>Mmm</b>
body:
I think the Fisher is the Third Destroyer, the third in the trilogy of Rand/LTT. I wrote a theory about it, but it was knocked back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> It also included the fact that Rand may be one of the few with the ability to use the TP, which is why the DO wants to convert him.<br /><br />I also thought that Ishy's eyes were basically rotted away since he was just an animiated corpse by the start of the series. And why hasn't Moridin's eyes started to wither or something? He is using just the TP.


created: 2003-02-12 13:25:13
subject: <b>Good theory, and...</b>
body:
I wonder if in addition to losing your eyes, you don't lose your soul, but it becomes completely corrupted by the DO. It reminded me of part of that passage Verin read to Egwene in TDR, because, as we know Ishy/Moridin almost exclusivley uses the True Power.<br /><br />      &quot;...soul of shadow, soul of the Shadow, he is...&quot;<br /><br />and it ended there. I think the saa destroy your eyes/person physically, but the black flecks also symbolize a spiritual corruption/destruction.<br /><br />Either way, good theory.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 18:29:55
subject: <b>The Fisher</b>
body:
First off, well done on an excellently scribed theory! Very impressive indeed!<br /><br /><br />I think in regard to the fisher having bandaged eyes this could be purely symbolic. Cadsuane is meant to help Rand maintain his humanity and thus stop him from losing his soul. From previous points it seems like the lack of soul is symbolised by a lack of vision and at the moment Rand is getting to be as hard and soul-less as a rock.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 13:03:45
subject: <b>Another possible support for this is</b>
body:
That another name for the dark one is sightblinder..which would correlate with a loss of eyes.  Of course they can still see so.....perhaps not too


created: 2003-06-11 20:54:38
subject: <b>So?</b>
body:
When you loose your eyes, but still can see, isn't it worth the price? The Forsaken have already in a sense sold their soul.  If I was one of the Forsaken, I'd use nothing but the True Power as well.


created: 2003-07-08 23:47:09
subject: <b>Loss of eyes isn't the only price...</b>
body:
Those who use the TP exclusively also become addicted to it. As someone else said, it might reach the point where you simply CAN'T let go of the TP... or the withdrawal will kill you.<br /><br />What I'm curious about is this- if the TP erodes away your body, then why does Ishy start out a walking corpse in tEotW, with a horribly scarred face, and by the end he's fully healed with a face as good as new. Is this just him using Illusion to dupe Rand? But in that case, why does he show himself as scarred at the beginning and whole at the end?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud president of the Society of People Who Make Up Societies And Pretend To Be The President Of Said Societies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> People put WAY too many smileys in their sigs... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-16 22:03:46
subject: <b>About those eyes...</b>
body:
Hey! I thought you had an excellent point about peoples' eyes and how they reflect the inner workings of their very soul. But you neglected to point out the most obvious example: Rand. Blue to gray to blue again. Rand to Lews to Rand again. Just thought I'd point that out. Keep writing. It's good for you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 13:51:40
subject: <b>nice!</b>
body:
very well put i never even thought about that it came up in my mind a few weeks ago though... and you answered that very itchy question!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> the eternal protecter of the eye of the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> the dark ones black hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />               *o* slayer of shaidar haran *o*</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 19:51:26
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
EXCELLENT theory...not really a big deal, but original and interesting...and about Mat, he is tied into the TP, because I believe the medallion and the gholam are made with the TP. So he loses an eye in the process of killing the gholam, maybe. anyway great theory!


created: 2004-06-29 21:33:32
subject: <b>Fade's eyes</b>
body:
I don't know about the Fades losing their eyes b/c of the true power.  They never had eyes to begin with.  Eyeless, with skin smooth as an egg where eyes should be.  no eyepits. just skin growing.  I bet if you chopped off a fade's head and looked into the place where eyes should be, there is bone.  Not even a place for eyes to grow. <br /><br />Ishamael lost his eyes from the true power.  The myrdraal never had any.  I suppose you could be correct about them since they are born able to use the true power, but I don't know.  I'm not sure about the Myrdraal thing.  I like the rest though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">God's original plan was to hang out in a garden with some naked vegetarians.<br /><br />Madness takes its toll, please have exact change<br /><br />Still able to ride a Unicorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Check it out: http://www.flightofantasy.blogspot.com/</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 16:32:44
subject: <b>Mats eye</b>
body:
Mat:<br /><br />You must give up half the light of the world to save the world.<br /><br />Placing his eye on a scale and what he is weighing is something vast.... maybe the world.<br /><br />The reference to the god Odin is refering to Mat. I read somewhere that Mat and Odin have alot in common. <br /><br />Mat will have to give up his left eye (half the light of the world) to save the world. This will not be an easy decision for him.<br /><br />Let me also add that the dream Egwene had about Thom pulling Moraines gem out of the fire. It mentions Mat having his hat pulled down to cover the wound or bloody somthing. ( not sure of the exact wording) <br /><br />I think that Mat will lose his eye trying to save Moraine with Thoms help. We all know without Moraine Rand will Lose the Last Battle. ( Mins Viewing) &quot;How could she tell him he would surely lose without a woman dead and gone. That was the only viewing that went wrong.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-28 22:23:52
subject: <b>The TP &amp; Taint</b>
body:
Since the TP and the taint are both connected to the DO, perhaps the TP is also connected with the taint. Especially since the DO lashed out against LTT with..? The TP maybe and that would defitley explain the side effects of decay of the body and soul, like when Rand (correct me if I'm wrong I can't find TGH right now) is living the life as a queen's guard and his face is described as decaying while alive and his personality is mentioned as a bit on the wacko side (madness from the taint anyone?)Thats how I see some of it other than that nice theory.


created: 2004-09-03 19:51:14
subject: <b>the price of the true power</b>
body:
I think the price of the true power is insanity and the eventual loss of the immortal soul, the inability to be born again. We also know another way to permanently remove a soul from the wheel--balefire--which the forsaken are very worried about. The physical form is fleeting and unimportant...look at the DO's power in ressurecting the forsaken. Plus Ishamael is known to be insane, and it's definitely hinted the True Power is to blame.<br /><br />I think the other reason the majority of the Forsken avoid touching the True Power even rarely is its extremely addictive nature. Once one is addicted, he/she will be hastening towards their own demise.<br /><br />I think the Fisher's blindness is a metaphor...the Fisher is the Dragon Reborn for that age and the Dragon is unable to see the correct path. He walks a knife's edge, each decision critical but with no hints as to possible mistakes. For example, Lews Therin made a crital mistake at the end, in attempting to seal the bore. He lost more for humanity than he gained. The Dragon Reborn is essentially blind, feeling his way along the pattern.<br /><br />BTW/Mat as Odin--Odin was hung, from a tree. There's a nice connection for you. Dead and then lived afterward.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-21 00:05:34
subject: <b>impossible</b>
body:
as stated by Morridin says something along the lines of: although the saa floated across his eyes like a blizzard, THEY DIDN'T affect or hinder his sight in any way...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-09 18:18:16
subject: <b>um yeah</b>
body:
I dont like the idea that Myrdraal can use the True Power.   Aside from that your theory in and of itself is all about saa.   The Myrdraal in and of themselves were a mistake, and created not gifted by the DO as you stated, and since they were created by mixing human and animal stock I find it hard to believe that they would even have the capablity to channel, even unaware.   This leads to all different levels of thought, because if a Myrdraal can channel, wouldnt Trollocs be able to as well?<br />Another point is the fact that we have only see two people (one really) in the series channel the true power, and only those who were Forsaken.   Is it possible for one who doesnt have the ability to channel, be given the ability to channel the True Power???   Its some food for thought, but I dont think so.


created: 2005-02-20 20:09:17
subject: <b>good, ive got a few questions</b>
body:
If the myrddraal can use the TP, why dont they? it'd sure be easier than swords. plus, as someone else said, grey men have souls, but have eyes too.<br /><br />a couple flaws, but thats still really good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-13 16:31:38
subject: <b>OK, look</b>
body:
To all those who think that the soulless Ogier, or the Grey Men having eyes disproves this theory, I must point out that you are making an error in logic.<br /><br />Y'all presume that when Etzel points out the connection between Ishy losing his eyes/soul to the TP , he also means that all people who have lost their soul have *also* lost their eyes. This is an error that stems from confusing necessary and sufficient causes.<br /><br />Having no eyes and still being able to see is sufficient cause to think that someone has lost their soul, as clearly no &quot;normal&quot; human should be able to see without functioning eyes.<br /><br />However, this does not mean that soulless individuals *necessarily* have no eyes. Grey Men probably still have their eyes, though you wouldn't notice because their loss of a soul has entirely different effects. Besides, Grey Men are meant to be unremarkable, and seeing a person with no eyes moving about normally would certainly be something to remark upon. The soul stripped Ogier is another case in point: he may still have his eyes, but there is certainly nothing behind them. Blind men may have lost the function of their eyes, or be missing them entirely, but that does not render them soulless.<br /><br />Etzel's point still stands, to wit that part of the price of using the TP is the loss of your humanity as *marked* by the loss of your eyes. If the eyes are the mirror of the soul, then like all mirrors they may reflect perfectly or they may reflect poorly.<br />


created: 2003-02-07 15:47:01
subject: <b>Hair doesn't match</b>
body:
By your own quotes, we see that Marillin's hair is &quot;lifless, pale brown hair.&quot;  But in the other quote, the woman in the cloak who ducks into the candleshop has black hair.  I know it could have been dark, but there's too big a difference between pale brown and black to mistake them for the same color.


created: 2003-02-07 15:48:23
subject: <b>Too common</b>
body:
I think brooches are both too common and too eye catching to be correct. First, you'd have to worry about false positives. Any time you say an Aes Sedai wearing a fancy brooch, you'd have to try and figure out if it were a signal. First, the line between fancy and not would seem rather vague - what if it were indeterminate? Also, there'd be the chance of an Aes Sedai just randomly deciding to wear a fancy brooch. The Black Ajah is too secretive to make its emergency signal so vague - all it would take would be one misunderstood emergency signal to expose it.<br /><br />Second, fancy brooches would tend to stick out. You want your emergency signal to be something subtle that no one would notice unless they knew what they were looking for. Just as you noticed the brooch because Jordan mentioned how fancy it was, onlookers would see it and might start wondering why it was being worn. Again, the Black Ajah is secretive enough that they wouldn't want such an eyecatching emergency signal.


created: 2003-02-08 00:58:43
subject: <b>Cadsuane has one also</b>
body:
The only other wearer of one in the series, I believe:<br /><br />Winter's Heart, chapter 25<br /><br />Cadsuane stepped into the room and stopped, frowning at the knife stuck in the door. In a dress of fine dark green wool and a fur-lined cloak held by a silver brooch at the neck, she might have passed for a successful merchant or a banker, though the golden birds and fish, stars and moons dangling from the iron-gray bun atop her head would have been ostentatious for either. She was not wearing her Great Serpent ring, so it seemed she was making some effort to avoid too much notice. &quot;Have you children been arguing?&quot; she asked mildly.


created: 2003-02-08 02:02:07
subject: <b>Black Ajah Signals</b>
body:
Sorry, I also can't accept the idea of a brooch being a Black Ajah signal.  As has been mentioned, such a simple signal would get many (ignorant) non-Black Ajah signalers.<br /><br />We have seen one Black Ajah signal; I quote from Lord of Chaos -- Chapter 30: To Heal Again.  This is the section when Halima arrives and identifies herself to Delana.  I've skipped sections to the get to the important parts of the page.<br /><br /><i>The woman held her hands at her sides, but with thumbs thrust hard between the first two fingers. Delana had never expected to see that from any woman who did not wear the shawl<br /><br />Delana fixed her with a hard stare. &quot;Who do you think you are, woman? However high you think you stand, none<br />stand higher than Aes Sedai. And where did you learn that sign?&quot;<br /><br />Halima smiled at her mockingly. &quot;Do you really think the secrets of the ...shall we say, darker Ajah, are that secret?  As for how high you stand, you know very well that if a beggar gave the proper signs, you would leap to obey.&quot;<br /><br />True, she would have obeyed that hypothetical beggar if he had the proper signs and said the right things', but Halima's hands had identified her as Black Ajah, which she clearly was not. Perhaps the woman thought that was the only way to make Delana acknowledge her, and perhaps she wanted to show off her forbidden knowledge as well.</i><br /><br />I would suspect that other Black Ajah signals would be in a similar vein.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob Moore<br />Bromly Falco<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Da'Rie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The 15th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 04:06:28
subject: <b>Glad about the responds, but....</b>
body:
Marillin was sure about the sister in the palace. How do you explain it especially considering the heart organisation of the Black Ajah? <br /><br />The brooches must be of course special made brooches which can't be mistaken. <br /> <br /><br />To michenerj: As far as I know I'm the only one who noticed the brooch so it's quite subtle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />People just think it's something to wear not a signal. <br />And of course as an emergency signal the Black Aes Sedai wear in only in very, very dangerous situations if they have no other choice.<br /><br />Finally if you look at the Yellow Ajah signal it isn't subtle at all: yellow flowers...


created: 2003-02-08 11:23:44
subject: <b>Brooches</b>
body:
You're the only one who noticed the brooches, reading about them in the book. Imagine that you are in Randland. Don't you think that they might draw eyes? That would be exactly the last thing you'd want.<br /><br />So how could you make the brooches so they wouldn't be mistaken? The two you've identified are fairly different - and they'd have to be to avoid comment. Do you really want to have to memorize dozens of different brooches?<br /><br />Also, I'd say that the Yellow Ajah signal is fairly subtle. Yes, it's kind of obvious if you know what it is, but otherwise you'd just see some yellow flowers (I don't remember the exact quote, but wasn't it also something about the ribbon that tied the flowers?). Either way, it's innocuous but easily identified - the exact opposite of the signal you've proposed.<br />


created: 2003-02-08 13:07:14
subject: <b>Black or Blue</b>
body:
Etzel - Did you happen to notice that Lelaine had a brooch holding her cloak that is silver with saphires? She was wearing this at the end of CoT when she went to speak to Egwene.<br /><br />Bromly_Falco - Obviously the thumb between the first two fingers is a BA signal. I'll quote a portion of your quote... &quot;Delana had never expected to see that from any woman who did not wear the shawl.&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2003-02-08 13:57:09
subject: <b>That's intersting...</b>
body:
didn't noticed Lelaine's brooch. <br />Could she be a BA? Has somebody hints which could prove that Lelaine is a Black sister or that it's impossible she's BA?


created: 2003-02-08 14:02:41
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
the brooch does not only reveal the killer of Adeleas and Ispan but also the person who punishes Sheriam, Lelaine is a sitter...


created: 2003-02-08 19:49:47
subject: <b>could be wrong but</b>
body:
I'm at work so I don't have my books with me,but I seem to recall marillin said there was a woman in the palace that could do what Shaine wanted. Shaine then thinks this women must be BA and not just a Darkfriend to do what needs done. maillin nevers says that the woman is a sister. the woman could just as easily be a windfinder or aiel wise one or a member of the kin. just a thought. if I am remembering incorrectly my bad


created: 2003-02-09 03:43:04
subject: <b>Recognition....</b>
body:
Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve....all three would recognize any of the 13 original Black Sisters on sight.  They studied them thoroughly when Siuan's &quot;hounds&quot;, they described them in detail to Juilin Sandar upon arriving in Tear in TGH, I don't think they'd forget them so soon.  So Elayne or any of the others would have recognized Marillin if they saw her.  And Marillin certainly has been bound long enough to show the ageless look.


created: 2003-02-09 15:41:37
subject: <b>Another thing about Sareitha</b>
body:
When Elayne returns to Caemlyn and hears that her darkfriend Guard had some kind of altercation at the city gates, the only person who defended him was Sareitha.<br /><br />I agree that she is Black Ajah. ..don't know about the brooch , though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">B.Alicia  <br />------ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Betty <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />------ <br /> <br /> <br />I finished Milford Track! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />February 2007!<br /><br />Grieving the loss of our friend Joe, Crazed Weasel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 07:15:27
subject: <b>Maybe and Maybe not</b>
body:
First off I agree that the silver brooch idea is a vauge singal. However it may be something used as an opening.<br /><br />   Let's say the first step is you see an Aes Sedai wearing a silver brooch. When you have a moment alone with her you might ask &quot;what's the first thing you'd put into your tea if it was a hot day?&quot; and if she replies &quot;I'd put in sugar, honey, and then a twist of lime&quot; then you regard her as an ordinary sister. However if her reply is &quot;Yaks milk, twigs, and a cutting from my left fingernails, then I'd stir in some saliva&quot; you know that you're talking to another black ajah sister.<br /><br />   By the way we can't be sure of those clues RJ has given. They aren't imperical clues, but rather personal clues. The difference being that an impirical clue is something said in the narrative, but a personal clue is something thought by a character.<br /><br />   Example: Alviarnin sees the bronze trim on Mesaanas dress. This shows us that Mesaana wears such a dress in her disguise inside the tower. When Shady Harry (aka Shadar Harn) pops up to do the dark spawn shuffle with Mesaa Alviarnin is convinced that he's the dark one and not a lackey. This is merely conjecture on her part. From what she's just witness her conclusion is that she has met the dark one in the flesh, but we don't know if she's right or just jumping to conclusions based on first impressions.<br /><br />   So far it's been other female channelers that have reached the conclusion that the killer of Adealas has to be an Aes Sedai and that Merillile, Sareitha or Careane must be the black sister. They are all solipsisticly over looking Vandene. None of them could ever bring themselves to murder their own blood kin. They don't have the mentality for it, and they have no concept of the dark friend mentality. <br /><br />   It's kind of like expecting a devout and sincere Christian to be able to figure out how a devil worshipping murderer would think. It'd be an exercise in total futility at the very best. We're talking diametrically opposed views of life.<br /><br />   Dark friends become what they are because they want power and the freedom to live outside societies rules. Once they become friend of the dark however, they find that most of their time is spent pretending to be regular people. Not only do they still have to live under socities rules, they now have a new set of rules to follow among other people who have given up their hope of rebirth.<br /><br />   The reason they continue after their disillusionment is because they're afraid of the consequences of backing out. Aside from suffering they'd face by themselves, their friends and family are at stake (see Jaichim Caridin) as well. To keep from facing the consequences they'd do anything. While one might argue that killing her sister would be moot as her sister is her only family member anyway, Vandene had other motivations to be sure. For one thing she apred her sister the suffering that would have come from another killer.<br /><br />   This way of thinking is alien to the non black ajah aes sedai mind. So the fact that they've decided that Vandene can't be a suspect is due more to their own limited thinking to actual evidence on RJs part.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 07:16:52
subject: <b>Oh and one other thing</b>
body:
Someone mentioned that a definite sign among black ajah is the thumb thrust through a the first two fingers. Gee wouldn't that seem more appropriate for pillow friends<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />   Snoogans<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-14 03:03:57
subject: <b>Missing the obvious</b>
body:
I think everyone is forgetting some of the basic things we know about AS.  First they do wear nice close and jewelry.  Examples: silk, embroidery, rings, that blue stone on moiraine's head, and brooches.  A brooch is a common piece of jewelry &quot;A relatively large decorative pin or clasp.&quot;  Most will be relatively plain but still decorative.  That is the point of using them.  For an AS to wear a nice silver broach is not out of the realm of possibility.  In fact, I would think it more unusual for an AS to wear a plain brooch.<br /><br />I think the argument of standing out is a little over the top and we are forgetting the basics.<br /><br />As far as being an identifiable marker, I am not sure.  They would have to have some similarity in appearance.  I would think that would be notice if a bunch of sisters are running around with nearly identical brooches.  If the theory is correct then it is an emergency thing meaning they would not all go around all the time with it on.  Also if they need to get a hold of other black sisters they can't go around with there thumbs between their fingers all day either.  The brooch makes more sense.<br /><br />BUT in this case I do not feel this is conclusive but it is worth looking at closer in the past and the future. <br />


created: 2003-02-22 00:19:16
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
It makes a lot of sense to have a non-specific sign to show other Black Ajah members in times of need.  It makes sense for anyone in a secret society.  The yellow signal is good example -- if it's a little crude I remember someone(Alviarin?) calling the Yellow's network of informants &quot;pitiful&quot;.  Perhaps they are not as sophisticated as the other Ajah, and the Blacks would have to be better than everyone else at this type of thing.  Siuan also gives a secret sign to the innkeeper in Lugard -- a couple of sentences with &quot;blue&quot; and maybe one or two other key words, I think.  Very general, but with just enough specificity so as not to be mistaken.  Both brooches are silver, and maybe they share a design feature, a shape, some gems.  There are probably a hundred different possibilities, but this is just speculation because we simply don't get enough of a description about Eldrith's to make a positive conclusion.  <br /><br />One point that everyone might think about is the fact that Eldrith has a siver brooch at all.  Most Browns don't exactly dress themselves up much.  Verin has a brooch too, but isn't hers an angreal?  Even if it's not Verin isn't your typical Brown in any case.<br /><br />This theory also brings up two things that I think work against any Black sisters being responsible for Ispan and Adeleas.  The first is secrecy.  Black Ajah are very secretive.  In fact that's the main reason why they are so effective -- everyone thinks that they're Aes Sedai.  People may not know what motivates Aes Sedai most of the time, but they're absolutely positive that sisters are working against the Dark One.  Other than the 13 Black Ajah that exposed themselves, only one has ever been found out by any good girls/guys.  I haven't read that part recently, and I can't even remeber her name, but I don't recall her doing anything terribly obvious to get caught.  If a Black Ajah sister killed Ispan they would be running a serious risk exposing themselves.<br /><br />The second point is ignorance.  The Black Ajah don't know very much about each other, or even much more beyond what they themselves are doing. In two seperate episodes where Black Ajah/Darkfriends are receiving directions from Bosses, those directions are specifically hidden from their compatriots.  If you leave out Liandrin there are 12 Black Ajah who steal the ter'angreal from the Tower.  It is probably not just coincidence that number would be equal to 4 hearts, and if it was set up a certain way those 12 need not know any other Black Ajah still within the Tower, or otherwise undiscovered.  That's a logical precauion for Alviarin, a White/Black siter, to make.  I don't think there is much evidence that Ispan knew enough about anyone or anybody to make it worth the risk of exposing another Black sister.  Ispan especially has been out of the loop for weeks, if not months, tying to locate the cache in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Anyway, the Black Ajah certainly has signals for identifying each other, and there is no reason the brooch couldn't be one.  Of course, I don't think there is quite enough to say that it is definitely a signal either.  I like it, though!  Great job, Etzel!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 11:50:24
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Its an intereting idea but the strange woman in the market place had black hair and had aged into beaty. I don't think Marllin has ever been called pretty.  However I do doubt Sareitha.  She and Marllin are both browns, and that disaperence is very suspicios.  Any way Verin's brooch is shaped like a lily with too many petals and probaly made of ivory not silver bacause it's a angreal.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Forever


created: 2003-08-07 15:15:46
subject: <b>brooch</b>
body:
However, the Black Ajah have a hand signal as well, we learn it in LoC, they hold their thumbs tightly between their first two fingers, hands down at their sides.  The brooch may be a means to communicate a different message all together, such as, make contact with me asap.


created: 2004-08-05 20:21:12
subject: <b>not marillin</b>
body:
the woman elayne sees is black-haired, not pale brown<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-12 08:49:57
subject: <b>Clothing</b>
body:
While AS do go in for clothing etc, it is controlled in fashion by their Ajah, the female equivalent of a uniform. - look at NS: Blues can wear any gem except red, must wear blue stockings when outside the Tower (?)etc. Thw Whites go in for black as mourning colour. <br />The BA has sprung from women who go in for all this fancy stuff, so it is likely they have similar ideas. thats one.<br />Randlanders must wear brooches all the time, and many will be silver if they are reasonably well off - they don't have umbrellas or greatcoats etc. so must use cloaks a lot. Thats two<br />But Jordan doesnt usually talk about their brooches unless it is important - Verin lily angreal, Elayne/Avien amber turtle angreeal. Thats three<br />I think your right it is a signal, BUT it must be a special design OR worn a specific way or both. Maybe its bound on the left instead of the right?<br />Saying that certain other people also wore silver brooches is not disproving it - if Lelaine is BA why would she want to use that signal to Egwene who isnt? You have to look at the context.<br />Hopefull KoD will open up the BAs secrets a bit more -we can assume we'll see lots of BA signals during the hunt for them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 08:14:49
subject: <b>Not Marillin Gemalphin</b>
body:
While I don't discount Sareitha being the Black Sister, the woman Elayne saw in Caemlyn was certainly not Marillin.  Not only has Elayne seen detailed descriptions of all of Liandrin's Thirteen, and hence knows about distinctive features (Marillin's nose, e.g.), but more to the point she(very briefly)saw Marillin in the kitchens of the Panarch's Palace in TSR, and recognised her.  She obviously knows who Marillin is, and can recognise her on sight.<br /><br />Incidentally, in CoS Sareitha is observed to mouth the words &quot;Two thousand wilders, Light help us&quot; by Elayne.<br /><br />While it is possible Elayne misread Sareitha's lips, or this is something to ignore utterly (it certainly cannot be used as evidence) it is nonetheless interesting, as she was talking to herself, and a soliloquy would be more likely to reflect her real attitudes.<br /><br />Remember Careane was waiting in the stableyard to leave the palace upon Elayne's return.  Whilst this trip may not have been to Marillin, it shows that the other sisters leave the palace for 'errands' in the city too.


created: 2003-02-10 11:04:54
subject: <b>Of course, but...</b>
body:
I believe Gawyn has been mentioned after Glimmers.  I was pretty much under the opinion that every mention of bandits on the other side of the river was a report of Gawyn and his Younglings still working for the White Tower and working against the siege.


created: 2003-02-10 11:22:20
subject: <b>Hmmmmm</b>
body:
First of all Gawyn will free her yes<br /><br />Secondly - how short sighted is everyone in thinking that the books are going slowly from now on. Thats is soooo mind numbingly stupid it makes me want to cry.<br /><br />Clearly this is the calm before the storm, where Jordan creates tension and gicves himself a platform for explosive events in the following books.  This was basically the point of CoT (aside from character development), and to a lesser extent PoD. It clearly also adds realism - things are rarely all go all the time<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 11:34:06
subject: <b>Gawyn = Bandits</b>
body:
I agree that the bandits are the Younglings. It was mentioned in Glimmers that Elaida had an assignment for them. Then towards the end of COT, bandits start attacking. Anyway, I think this could well be where Gawyn rescues egwene, though I wouldn't count out the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 13:25:45
subject: <b>Can Gawyn get into Tar Valon?</b>
body:
I agree wholeheartedly Pinchy.  I don't see what people's problems are with CoS, tPoD and CoT.  I loved them all.  If you don't like them, don't read them.  Simple.<br /><br />As for the theory, I think it's been a foregone conclusion for many books now these two will end up together and Gawyn will save her, learn the truth about Rand, etc.  But I have one point of contention.  I don't have the books with me but I recall Gawyn thinking in Glimmers he couldn't get to the Tower because of the besieging army.  Surely this difficulty has increased now that Egwene has cuendillar-ized the harbor chains.  I may be wrong, but if I'm not then how will Gawyn get into Tar Valon?


created: 2003-02-10 14:05:13
subject: <b>Also..</b>
body:
min had a viewing concerning Galad and Egwene, I think when he was helping her, Leane and Siuan escape tar Valon after their stilling. Two images, one of him reaching out to embrace Egwene and the other of him reaching out and breaking her neck. Don't have the books, it's just from memory and just added it in for the sake of completeness.<br /><br />I think Egwene's going to have an interesting time in the next book, though I don't think it's totally clear the people who have trapped her are from the White Tower. My guess is she'll use tel'a'ran'rhiod to maintain contact with the rebels, and with Gawyn thrown in too...<br /><br />like I say..interesting.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 14:06:54
subject: <b>Gawyn enter TV</b>
body:
Well, one dream Eg had about Gawyn was him &quot;riding&quot; fast enough to possibly save her.  Off of that, I would say he'll get there on horseback which would only leave one of the main bridge gates as his course.  Somehow, maybe he'll get the gates opened up, or get some help from Mat somehow.  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 16:47:47
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
Well I certainly think that this may be an opportunity for Gawyn to interact with Egwene.  It is only a <i>possibility</i> and not a good one at that.  <br /><br />The chances are that Gawyn is still outside the tower with the bandits that are trobling the rebels.  Egwene is most likely caught <i>inside</i> the tower.  I don't think there will be a real chance they will meet.  Gawyn <i>may</i> hear the news sometime, but will he be in a position to do anything? <br /><br />More than likely the person who needs to save Egwene is the female Seanchen warrior in Egwene's dream (Eageanin?).  (In the dream Egwene is climbing a great cliff when it collapses beneath her feat a Seanchen comes to her aid and say together we can reach the top.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 17:40:22
subject: <b>What about Tuon???</b>
body:
I didn't see Egwene's dream about the Seanchan, in your theory at all.  I don't have the book with me now, but let me see if I can remember ...  Egwene is on a mountain pass or something like that.  All of a sudden it falls out from under her and she is left clinging onto something.  Then a Seanchan woman help Egwene out of her mess.  Now two people come to mind; Tuon and Egeanin.  Well, Egwene has already met Egeanin, so it must be someone she hasn't met yet.  That person is Tuon.  Here is my little theory.  Since we already know that Tuon is a sul'dam or has been trained as one.  Tuon will learn from the Aes Sedai that is with Mat's group.  I think that once a sul'dam accepts that she can channel and be taught to touch the source she will be able to channel just as good as anyone else who can channel.  They can already see the flows.  So Tuon will go with Mat and help Egwene escape.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune favors the Brave&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 18:34:56
subject: <b>How's this for a twist</b>
body:
Everyone seems to think that Gawyn will rescue Egwene and thus save her from the headsman, what if however, Gawyn NOT saving her keeps her alive, while his deciding to break her out will end with her death. I think its a nice little twist, and it also leaves the door open for the mysterious seanchan to help Egwene reach her goal.<br /><br />And yes, she will definitely use her powers as a dreamer to speak with others in their dreams, and meet with them in TAR while she's a captive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 20:10:34
subject: <b>Forkroot?</b>
body:
Does Fortkroot block the power to enter the dreamworld? Afterall it prevents channelling by breaking concentration, so maybe it will also prevent her from reaching dreams. Unless they start shielding her (or even still her) instead, then she'll dream out to everyone, Rand or Mat will come and rescue her, and she'll be ungrateful to him.


created: 2003-02-11 04:45:40
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I dont know how or why but for some reason i always thought that mat would help out Egwene at some crucial moment as with this one.  Althought this theory is pretty good at putting Gawyn in the rescuing seat i'll admit.  Although mat i think (i dont know how dont ask me) will rescue her maybe with egeanin/Tuon as the seanchan chick who helps out egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 13:53:30
subject: <b>Gawyn will not be the hero</b>
body:
I agree with &quot;shooganooga&quot; In her dreams Egwene has to force him into doing something that he doesn't want to do. I think when he hears about Egwene he'll want rush off to save her, but the only way he can keep her alive is to stay away, then Egwene can be rescued by the mystirious seanchan woman, who I belive must be Tuon..


created: 2003-02-11 15:21:08
subject: <b>Egwene's CoT Seanchen dream</b>
body:
The lady who rescues Egwene is wearing a sword and RJ has stated that he probably won't introduce any new major characters.  My guess is that Tuon sends Eageanin to perform a specific task.  <br /><br />I don't remember Egwene meeting Eageanin.  Elayne and Nynaeve met her after Falme.  Domon met her before Falme.  But I don't remember Egwene meeting her at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 17:06:21
subject: <b>Nice Idea</b>
body:
That would also work with Min's viewing about Gawyn and Egwene that was uncertain and showed two possible paths.<br />redushab


created: 2003-02-11 23:27:06
subject: <b>My few Thoughts</b>
body:
First a Do or die act of the youngings..Gawyn hears about Egwene and attempts to cut through 1 the Gate camps. Things in his favor are his Vertren Soldiers, on horseback,suprise,back attack,and just need to get through..now he has a good chance of breaking through to the gate.<br /><br />Second. First Egwene can't enter any sisters/or rands Dreams ..Remember they keep them warded ..she's trrrried entering rands.. She may try to reach one the Wise one dreamers..Amys for one(she won't teach her, would shew tell rand??) <br /><br />Third i agree that it may take 2 books before RJ gets to her rescure..it'll allow Mat and the 2 Seanchean gals to get in range to help. whoever said it's the calm before the storm... Wake up Your great RJ is losing his touch getting bored of the WOT or is to greeded for cash to give a damn..<br />The books have slipped too much since LOC to be just the Calm before the storm..<br /><br />maybe the BA hunters will end up with her and make her sear some oaths finally!


created: 2003-02-12 13:43:13
subject: <b>The Seanchan</b>
body:
Egwene has a habit of finding herself in trouble, so I'm sure the opportunity will arise for the Seanchan woman to save her at some point. I don't think Mat, Tuon and Egeanin are headed anywhere near the White Tower, and with Rand deciding to call a truce with the Seanchan, I think the Seanchan will be more concerned with that than with trying to get to the White Tower. <br /><br />So while Gawyn will save her this time, Egwene's bound to get herself in trouble again sometime and the Seanchan woman can save her then. After all, if she gets free and goes back to the rebel Aes Sedai, she's still got Halima and the Black Ajah to deal with.


created: 2003-02-12 18:14:17
subject: <b>Egwene must save Egwene</b>
body:
I believe that Egwene has been captured by the tower Aes Sedai, and that she is firmly in their grip.  However I don't doubt that Egwene will have help to escape.  Who that help will be I don't know, but more importantly, I think her escape will be because she uses compulsion.  At least twice I remember her saying that she wished she could rid herself of those weaves that Moghedian taught her, but I think they will end up being the difference between her salvation and damnation.<br /><br /><br />Nimvin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Can I break the world again? Huh? Can I can I? Pleeeeeeeaaassseeee? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-12 20:11:27
subject: <b>egwene's trial to accpetance</b>
body:
i remember egwene, when being raised to accepted and going through the three doorways, viewed herself captured then breaking free on her own.  running with her keeper, she mentions a plan to free themselves completely, at which her keeper (i think beldiene) says, &quot;how can we do that?  the three oaths prevent it.&quot;  at which egwene states, to beldiene's astonishment, &quot;i've never taken the oaths.&quot;  i believe this also has to be considered when theorizing egwene's escape/freedom.  however, remember that egwene asks, in COT, if the tower AS believed her &quot;dreaming&quot; of the seanchan attack of the tower.  this could be not an attack, but an attempt at her rescue.


created: 2003-02-15 05:25:27
subject: <b>Egwene's Escape</b>
body:
As long as Egwene is allowed to regain consciousness she will be able to get news of her capture out, at least to Nynaeve, Elayne or Aviendha.  Anyone of them could then open a gateway into her prison to let her escape.  But I doubt it will be that simple.<br /><br />While the Tower Aes Sedai don't know about dreamwalking, the Black Ajah does and both Ishamael and Moghedien know that Egwene is a dreamwalker.  If the black Ajah were behind her betrayal (which is a good bet given the death of Kairen) then steps will have been taken to prevent her doing just that.<br /><br />I guess we just have to RAFO.


created: 2003-02-15 16:16:38
subject: <b>To Bayside and Egwene's capture</b>
body:
I think that Egwene was simply unlucky in being captured.  Yes she should not have been the one who went to turn the harbor chains to cuendillar, but she was attacked very quickly after she accomplished the deed.  Wether that means they were expecting something or if Egwene was just unlucky we will have to RAFO as you said.<br />But Kairen's death I believe can be easily laid at Halima/Belthamal's feet.  Both Kairen and Anaiya were killed by Siadin.  It seems a safe bet that an Ashaman wouldn't be caught dead within 20 miles of the white tower much less within an army of Aes Sedai.  Plus Nisao has found no clues as to who the murderer was and she has made it clear she is looking for a man.  And don't forget that Halima killed off Egwene's and other two maids (not Chesa.)<br /><br />thats my two crowns<br />Nimvin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />I rock!<br />I roll!<br />I need a drink.


created: 2003-02-15 20:26:03
subject: <b>Gawyn &quot;rescues&quot; Egwene</b>
body:
I don't think that Gawyn helping Egwene has to be her physical removal from the White Tower.  I think that the Tower sisters captured Egwene, because all of the Dark people that are based in the Tower found themselves in pretty bad situations in CoT.  If the Tower sisters did capture her then I don't think she is in immediate physical danger.  While Elaida would certainly like to punish Egwene, even she dreams of sparing her, and the rest of the Tower would be loathe to lose Egwene's potential.  Finally, Gawyn can probably sneak onto Tar Valon by himself, or with a few companions, and I think he probably will if he discovers Egwene's presence there.  However, Gawyn can probably assist Egwene in other ways beside helping her physically escape.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 01:43:59
subject: <b>RE: Forkroot</b>
body:
Just to clarify - you don't have to be able to channel to enter T'A'R.  Several Wise Ones who can enter T'A'R don't.  So I doubt forkroot would have any control over entering T'A'R by interfering with the power.  The only thing I could think of that might interfere with entering T'A'R would be if forkroot would knock Egwene into such a deep sleep that she couldn't enter.


created: 2003-02-17 11:57:49
subject: <b>who needs rescue</b>
body:
Just a quick thought on this theory. I seem to remember elaida foretelling that the tower would unite under her. This will come true because it was a foretelling, but wouldn't it make sense if egwene united the tower, working from the prisons of the tower, talking to the rebels through tar, converting any disgrunteled tower Aes Sedai by preaching her righteous ways, and maybe with a little help from a certain youngling. I can allready see her rise straight from the dungeon of the tower to the amyrlyn seat.


created: 2003-02-19 18:25:14
subject: <b>To Arrow</b>
body:
Elaida had a foretelling saying that the Amyrlin would reunite the Tower, not necessarily Elaida, but the Amyrlin.  Elaida just assumed it would be her.  I believe most of us think that refers to Egwene.  Also another part of that foretelling said that sisters would walk the grounds of the Black tower in blood and fire, which I think refers to the sisters that the Ashaman have bonded when the eventual showdown between Taim and Logain comes down.<br /><br />Later folkses<br /><br />Nimvin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />I rule!!<br />I drool!!<br />I need a napkin. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-19 18:28:34
subject: <b>Dream can come true</b>
body:
I agree with this theory; the dreams Egwene had in LoC suggest that Gawyn will have to make a choose between Egwene and the White Tower.  I just hope he makes the right choose though i'm sure he will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 01:29:26
subject: <b>What about the Seanchan?</b>
body:
I believe that Gawyn will eventually have to choose between the White Tower and helping Egwene - but I don't think it will be now.  In CoT Egwene has several dreams about a Seanchan woman offering to help.  She also has a dream about the White Tower being rocked by a Seanchan attack.  The rebel sisters all dismissed this dream because the Seanchan were 'too far away' and they would see them marching.  Hello???  Isn't that what the White Tower believed of the Rebels?  I'm not sure where the strings are going to tie but the Seanchan are with all 3 of the boys - Perrin has his Asha'men and Rand can travel all by his lonesome...  Its not totally out of the question that in a quick jump the tower will be besieged by Seanchan.  My theory isn't complete but <br /><br />1 I believe the Tower will be attacked by Seanchan<br />2 In the confusion Egwene will try to escape but not make it on her own<br />3 Someone from the Seanchan will offer to help her...<br /><br />Of course it won't be that simple and I'm probably wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~z</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 17:37:49
subject: <b>If only...</b>
body:
If only Rand would be the one to perform the rescue. Immagine how cool it would be if Asha'man did the attack on Tar Valon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Halt here! Now! By the order of the Lord Dragon! Else he channel your head into your belly and feed you your own feet for breakfast!<br />     -Mat Cauthon<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 03:02:31
subject: <b>Halima</b>
body:
I believe that Halima/Aran'gar/Be'lal killed Anaiya and Kairen knowing that Egwene would rather risk her own life rather than that of a novice, and then told Alviarin or Masaana to be ready to capture her at the white tower. (Which brings up the question of whether Saidar was technically used as a weapon against Egwene, revealing a BA, if of course the channeler was not Alviarin or Masaana herself.) <br />   More evidence that Halima killed the sisters lies in the fact that Halima arrived late to Egwene's tent the night Anaiya was killed, and seemed 'excited.' This mood seems to fit with a Halima who had just murdered someone effortlessly, enjoyed it, and takes pleasure in the fact that she could not be caught.


created: 2003-02-27 12:01:42
subject: <b>RE: Halima</b>
body:
I have to agree... I think Halima is the one doing the killing but I thought that would be a theory of its own...  I didn't make the connection of her telling Mesaana - but judging by their surprise at it being Egwene (don't have the book to post a quote) I don't think that would be the case.  I think they were tipped that 'somebody' was going to do it, the fact it was Egwene was just a pleasent surprise.<br /><br />Also - I believe Halima is the cause of Egwene's headaches...  And probably is also using the power to ease drop.  (that may be obvious but I thought I'd throw it out there)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~z</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-28 22:04:39
subject: <b>Halima</b>
body:
Neither Masaana nor Alviarin could have revealed that Egwene would be the one captured without risking rather awkward questions that could lead to their connection to Halima, and hence to the black ajah, so of course their 'sisters' would be surprised.


created: 2003-03-23 10:32:41
subject: <b>Other Seanchan...?</b>
body:
This might be loony, but it is possible there is a 3rd Seanchan woman who could rescue Egwene. Isn't Alivia (sp?) Seanchan? She has a lot of things going for her, in my book. (assuming of course I haven't mixed her up with another of the myriad of characters in this series. She is the Leashed One who took to being un-Leashed the quickest of the ones Rand captured on his aborted Seanchan campagin)<br /><br />For starters, she's not Tuon or Eeanin, so she doesn't have the problem of being nowhere near the Tower without a Traveler handy. <br /><br />She's quoted as being even stronger in the Power than Nynaeve (sp? in fact, just assume I'm spelling things correctly, even when I am clearly not...), and also has centuries (if I recall correctly) of training under her belt. (or collar, as it were)<br /><br />She has a fanatical hatred of the Seanchan, and even more so of sul'dame and a'dam, just like our favorite Amyrlin. <br /><br />And finally, she was present at the Cleansing, and will be able to bring that vital vital VITAL piece of information to the rebel Aes Sedi.<br /><br />I don't recall her having a sword, per se, but it might just be a metaphor. She's got a giant sword, if you count her ability to make things die, explode, burn, and otherwise render into component atoms with the Power. <br /><br />Just a thought, but one I was surprised hadn't been posed before. <br /><br />Undine


created: 2003-03-28 15:56:43
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I think that Gawyn will rescue her as well.. When has RJ ever put in a little blip about someone that did not mattter? It always makes sense in the end. I think that Egwene's Dreams about Gawyn are going to come true very soon. Possibly in the eleventh book, but maybe RJ will keep Egwene kidnapped for a while...He has so far with Faile. But who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic"><br />Benjamin Arthur Hesketh<br />10.5.88<i></i>-7.26.08<br /><i>amor vincit omnia</i><br /><font color="white">love&amp;missyou</font><br /></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.tvtally.com" target="_blank">do eeeet!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-05-12 20:44:00
subject: <b>possibility of a seanchan rescuing Egwene</b>
body:
note that Mat's group is headed to Perrin's. as i said in my comment in Malden's location theory, there's a big possibility that Mat and Perrin would come across again... mainly because &quot;battles&quot; draw Mat into it, and the closest conflict to Mat (and company) is where Perrin is at. Mat, being a &quot;skilled battle tactician&quot;, would then realize that counting Perrin's troupe, and Tallanvor's seanchan (and possibly Masema's crazy crew) wouldn't suffice to fight the Shaidos and their 400+ channelers. so what more help could he think than having his band of the red hand with him? In order to get the Band, Mat knows he left his Band to protect someone (or take that someone if the need arises)--- which is Egwene. so yeah, Mat thinks that the band is with Egwene, and with the help of Ashaman, and his luck, he could find where they are sooner or later... which would lead Mat and company where the salidar AS are... and Mat would be drawn in this battle (to save Egwene) since IIRC, he promised Rand the safety of Eg, Ny and El. <br /><br />and of course, there's the thing about Tuon/Selucia/Egeanin with him. If Mat's company ever encounter Tallanvor's seanchans(when he crosses path with perrin), it's impossible to hide 3 damanes and 2 suldams. So, either Tuon would acknowledge Mat as his husband (or someone of importance to him) or Mat would still try to hide them, Mat would still have to take them with him if he makes a jump with the ashamans to find his band... thus, having 3 seanchan as possible rescuers of Egwene.<br /><br />just my 2 cents...


created: 2003-05-15 23:37:08
subject: <b>Egwene`s rescue</b>
body:
I agree with your well thought out theory- Gawyn will rescue her, and she will definitely bond him.  That is not an either/or Dream.<br /><br />Arrow: That is exactly my thinking- Egwene will rise from her prison to The Amyrlin Seat of the White Tower, with the help of the Tower Hall, who, IMO, have been secretly meeting to find a way to depose Elaida.<br /><br />There was another Dream by Egwene in bk 7, CoS hb pgs 201-202.  She was strapped to a block with a headsman`s axe descending, but someone was running, and if they ran fast enough. the axe would stop.  I believe this occurs after she has the Tower united, and the Sanchean attack.  It is at this time that Egeanin {who Egwene has not met-that was Ny and El in Tanchico} will help her &quot;reach the top&quot;.  Too many fans seem to forget the fact that Egeanin is a Sea Captain, and surely has a sword. After all, that seems to be the weapon of choice of the Seanchan {after the Damane, of course.<br /><br />A very good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-10 20:45:20
subject: <b>Dreamwalking</b>
body:
Maybe I'm silly for mentioning this, and I'm certin for story line sake that Gawyn will rescue Egwene.  But barring an overdose of forkroot that makes her so sleepy she can't sleep properly.  Can't Egwene just enter the dream world and travel that way?!  Just like she did when she was summoned to become Amyrlin? I know its supposed to be dangerous, but no more dangerous than being an immprisoned rebel Amyrlin ... Just a thought. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-02 15:58:29
subject: <b>Nynaeve`sBraid and others</b>
body:
Egwene can dream, no matter what condition she is in--be it forkroot, shielding or even Stilling Which I don`t expect}<br /><br />While being shielded in the Stone of Tear prison, she was able to reach Tel`aran`rhiod with the help of the twisted Ring, and use Saidar against 2 BA.<br /><br />Since that time, with training with Aiel WO`s, she is able to go to sleep at will and enter Tel.<br /><br />In addition to that, she is a DREAMER, which means she can enter other`s dreams or speak to them outside their dreams, except for those who have their dreams warded.<br /><br />Remember her being pulled into Gawyn`s dream, and their little &quot;:tango&quot;?  I fully expect this to happen once more.  Voila!  Gawyn comes to her rescue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 17:31:27
subject: <b>I think that</b>
body:
it will be both Gawyn and the Seachan that saves Egwene.  They see Egwene as a &quot;false&quot; Amyrlin and try to execute her.  Gawyn will save her from getting executed.  Then the Seachan will attack, and it will require both the Tower and Salidar Aes Sedai to stop the invasion.  Somehow in the aftermath of the fighting Egwene will come out as the true Amyrlin, and make an alliance afterward with the Seachan.<br />


created: 2004-06-21 15:59:30
subject: <b>Grawyn and Egwene</b>
body:
I think it will be Gawyn who rescues Egwene also.<br />It all fits!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 20:54:21
subject: <b>Maybe she doesn't need a rescuer</b>
body:
It's been a while since I've re-read any of the older books but can't Egwene enter T'A'R in the flesh and exit elsewhere?  And since she doesn't need an *angreal or even the ability to channel to get there, it doesn't matter whether the Tower sisters take away any *angreal she may have on her or (as I assume they will) keep her shielded.  She can walk right out w/out the Tower having any idea how she escaped - and w/out any help from anyone else.


created: 2005-02-21 17:31:12
subject: <b>Forkroot, etc.</b>
body:
I don't think Egwene could enter the dreamworld if she was on forkroot. In TFOH, Nynaeve gives Moghedien some forkroot that prevents her from being in the dreamworld.<br /><br />Also, Egwene DEFINATELY could not escape by travelling in the dreamworld. To enter the World of Dreams in the flesh you have to channel and open a gateway there. When Egwene dreams her body is still wherever it was in the waking world. So unless her captors allow her to channel (no they won't), that wouldn't work, and if she could channel she could just directly Travel away without involving the dreamworld at all.


created: 2003-02-10 03:10:37
subject: <b>Why do you think someone ...</b>
body:
who's never met any Seanchan before and doesn't know a thing about their customs could impersonate the DotNM? Even if Talaan could make a mask of mirror disguise good enough (which would give all sorts of practical problems as I seem to remember she is rather tall, much taller than Tuon at least) she could be very easily unmasked by any other member of the Blood, as they all know Tuon. At that, the clues to Merilille and Talaan being DF are highly surconstantial, I think there is much more proof against say Sareitha. By the way if anyone is going to impersonate Tuon, I think it would be Semi herself, she is certainly one of the few people capable of pulling such a trick.


created: 2003-02-10 04:25:45
subject: <b>It's possible...</b>
body:
...that, if Bashere has not seen Suroth's face, that she would impersonate TDotNM herself.  I could see Anath/Semi doing it herself, as she has the means and the influence to do it.  However, Suroth may do it herself, believing that Anath couldn't control a damane, much less the Dragon, and Suroth has handled damane before.  But the Sea Folk look too different, speak differently, and behave so differently than the Seanchan, that I highly doubt they'd throw her into the mix.  It would be obvious to just about anybody that she wasn't Seanchan.


created: 2003-02-10 06:01:21
subject: <b>Just a point</b>
body:
Remember that the Sea Folk have tattoo's as well as dark skins. Don't you think that Athan Miere tattoos on a Seanchan noblewoman would be a bit obvious?


created: 2003-02-10 08:14:26
subject: <b>Half right</b>
body:
I agree that Rand is walking into a trap by meeting with the supposed DotNM, but I don't think that Merilille and Talaan have anything to do with the plan. We've seen nothing to suggest that Talaan is a Darkfriend, nor do we have any substantial proof that Merilille is Black Ajah. And even if they both are Darkfriends, what's to suggest that they're heading for the Seanchan controlled Ebou Dar? They could just as easily be headed for the Black Ajah plagued White Tower, or the Light knows where else.<br /><br />I just don't think there's any proof for any of this other than Rand meeting with a known Darkfriend who posesses the male a'dam and is offering him a chance to meet someone who is not there.


created: 2003-02-10 10:38:56
subject: <b>random ramblings</b>
body:
Ok, we have Anath (Forsaken), Liandrin (Black Ajah), and Suroth who might be a DF but could just be plain bad.  The part where Liandrin turns Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne over to Suroth in tGH, pretty much implies Suroth as a DF; I'm not really sure whether she says anything about the Great Lord or whatever, I'll have to read it again.  I think these three together will be quite a problem for Rand, even without Talaan (who is really really strong, if I remember right.)


created: 2003-02-10 12:41:20
subject: <b>You forgot something</b>
body:
The thing that you forgot is that it requires TWO women to control a man channeler. Other then that I agree with what your saying. You just need to figure out who the other holder will.


created: 2003-02-10 14:41:14
subject: <b>semirage</b>
body:
rand would recognise anath through lews therin obviously semirahge would be suprised by this and it could mean this is how rand escapes the trap<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 14:55:00
subject: <b>RE: semirage</b>
body:
I'm not sure that Rand *would* recognize Semi through Lews Therin.  I mean, he's bumped into disguised Forsaken before, and either LTT hasn't said a word, or Rand has ignored him for a crazy former power-wielder.  I'm one of those people that think it's quite likely that Taim is actually Taimandered, and if you take that into account, Rand totally disregards LTT and makes the mistake of believing his eyes.  So having Semi walk around with a disguise is probably a pretty good way for Rand to be totally clueless.


created: 2003-02-10 16:03:56
subject: <b>Mask of Mirrors</b>
body:
could be used by any of the Forsaken so that LTT does not recognise them. And Lanfear used it quite well in TSR, so it's possible to assume that Semi could use it to impersonate Tuon if she wanted. But then Rand doesn't know what Tuon looks like anyway, so Semi just needs to convince him that whoever she wishes is Tuon; it's the blood she needs to worry about.<br /><br />As far as the theory goes, I don't see it. Seems too elaborate to me, given the MOM angle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 16:55:56
subject: <b>Why do people think this 'DotNM' is an imposter?</b>
body:
Why do people think this 'DotNM' is an imposter?  It doesn't make sense for Suroth to risk using an imposter.  There are too many people who know Tuon, and she might come back.  <br /><br />There is no timeline conflict either since we have NO time allusion in Rand's PoV other than it took a LONG time for Bashere to get back.  (What exactly is a LONG time, though? a week? a month?)  At least one of the people who specialize in WoT timelines place the epilogue about 6 to 7 days after Tuon's thread ends.  That is probably more than enough time to get back to Ebou Dar.  (In my mind Tuon's actions in this chapter suggests she is heading back to Ebou Dar.  What else has she to do now that she has taken charge?)<br /><br />Accept it people the DotNM in the epilogue is NOT an imposter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 18:23:57
subject: <b>The male a'dam</b>
body:
It was never stated that it required two women to control a male channeler with it. Moggy said that one woman could use it, but it would be a constant struggle for control and she would be able to do little else. This could be aliviated by sharing the a'dam with another female channeler. The drawback to this is that you have to share control and always have to be together. It also helps to trust the that the other woman isn't going to run off as soon as you remove your bracelet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 20:15:13
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
Suroth can't find anyone a little closer? Perhaps one of the hundreds of thousands she commands? A da'colavle told to obey, anyone else? A Seachan Dark Friend? At least they would be the right race.


created: 2003-02-10 20:41:05
subject: <b>rebuttal</b>
body:
ok, who knows what tuon looks like in the westlands?  i mean, she's under the veil even now.  proper seanchan might possibly not know what she looks like.  on the other hand, seanchan in the westlands have seen anath as tuon's speaker, so anath portraying the DOTNM is not as easy as it seems.  i think the main reasoning behind using two female channelers to use the male adam was to stop from losing control.  but if i remember correctly, it was due to the taint.  well, the taint is gone, so why couldn't one female channeler do it now?  also, the seanchan could have a vague description of tuon, i.e. short and darkskinned.  therefore, it would be hard for suroth or liandrin to impersonate her.  also, as tuon has been under the veil, who's to say she can't have tatoos?  this theory was the attempt to answer both questions as to why merilille (suspiciously) left, with one of two strong in the power sea folk, w/out word or permission to the aes sedai she should have been loyal to, and to who rand would meet as DOTNM.


created: 2003-02-10 20:47:43
subject: <b>rebuttal take two</b>
body:
the problem of the sea folk tatoos.  if asmodean could give couladin the dragons around the forearms, couldn't someone like anath/semi remove them from a windfinder?


created: 2003-02-10 21:08:35
subject: <b>Rebuttal take 1.5</b>
body:
I don't know why so many people think that Tuon is a popstar.  She's been under the veil, literally and metaphoriclly for quite a long time.  That means hardly anyone has really seen her face, and most everyone treats as what she claims to be, that is a High Lady but not the DoTNM.  The seanchan defer enough as it is to proper nobles and lords and ladies and such as it is, so it isn't like anyone has been staring at her vieled face long enough to know what she looks like.  You'd have to look pretty hard, and i imagine that kind of looking would get you pretty dead.  Yeah, so a few people know of her identity that we know of, but those are Anath, Suroth, Selucia (her bodygaurd), Egeanin (because she was a high ranking boat Captain, and probably that one guy tattooed with ravens.  Tylin is dead, and she knew too.  Who else knows that could intercede the meeting with Rand and the 'DoTNM' stand in?  Answer - a resounding No-One.  <br /><br />


created: 2003-02-10 21:52:42
subject: <b>to echo...</b>
body:
i'm sorry, but i don't know where u stand aside from saying that no one could id tuon, DOTNM.  that only helps this theory.


created: 2003-02-10 22:00:10
subject: <b>Tuon or not Tuon?</b>
body:
I believe it is clearly stated by Egeanin that every Seanchan knows who Tuon is. Tuon was her first name given about the age of 9. At that time she was known as the High Lady Tuon. After her latest naming, at age 16 I think, she became the Daughter of the Nine Moons and heir to the Crystal Throne. Egeanin said that as long as she wears the veil she is only a High Lady. She also states that she doesn't know why she wears the veil, but when she removes it there would be celebrating like she had just arrived. <br /><br />Therefore I don't think that her identity is the conspiracy. Rather, Anath has made or found a double for her, now that she is gone to take total control. <br /><br />Just my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 04:10:29
subject: <b>Answer to prince of dawn</b>
body:
It was clearly stated in WH that the veil didn't hide Tuons features at all, most of the Blood knows her from the Court, and you still haven't explained how Merilille/Talaan were supposed to learn to act like Seanchan, or take over there accent (Rand knows the 'slurry' way Seanchan speak, and even given the fact that he does rather stupid things from time to time, someone with the wrong accent would be so glaringly obvious that RJ could never get away with it). I simply don't believe they could succesfully pretend to be Seanchan.


created: 2003-02-11 04:26:19
subject: <b>to Rabid Wombat</b>
body:
I don't think Tuon is heading back to Ebou Dat. What would be the point for the story line? <br />Actually, Tuon might have certain plans of her own. She was DELIGHTED to hear that Mat would take her along (I personally think that going away and marrying Mat was her foretelling). We all know (at least after CoT) that she's a brilliant politician (and good at conspiracies too). She knows how to make use of being away from her people and with those guys she means to defeat.<br />No, Tuon goes where she wants but surprisingly as that will be to Mat, she points to the very same direction.<br />And no, I don't think the DotNM in the epilogue is an imposter. Just Suroth being a little behind... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-11 12:32:24
subject: <b>to smallcatherine</b>
body:
anath/semi is quite adept at taking out the pertinent info. from prisoners (i.e. cabriana mecandes).  therefore, getting a windfinder, making her appearance acceptable (ala asmodean and dragons on couladin), speaking and acting as a seanchan is feasible. as to how tuon looks, what other alternative does suroth have?  i mean, she is going to have rand meet SOMEONE, and it isn't tuon because she is with mat.  the plan suroth (and maybe anath) has is the have him meet an impostor. <br /><br />also, tuon IS a popstar.  and how many of you have actually met the celebrities/popstars we see everyday on television?  i have, and trust me, it's hard to believe that they are who they are.  they look and act a lot different in person than on the tube.  and the WOT doesn't have glossy pics, internet, or television.  i can't believe that the seanchan have a definite picture of tuon in their mind.  maybe a drawing (ala the ones of rand v. ishy above toman head) with a vague impression of what tuon is supposed to look like (dark-skinned, short, etc.), but that's it. egeanin might know what she looks like, but that's because she is nobility and has been in the tarasin palace.  yet the seanchan as a whole wouldn't know tuon from a hole in the wall.  thus giving suroth (and maybe anath) the opportunity to slip in an impostor and fool everyone.  and even if that's not their intention (fooling their own seanchan) it could still be the motive and opportunity to fool rand.


created: 2003-02-11 14:58:51
subject: <b>Missing some major points.</b>
body:
It seems to me that this whole debate is off track. Just because Suroth tells Rand she wants him to meet the DotNM doesn't mean that she's telling the truth or that he will, in fact, meet her. The most plausible reason to me is that she's setting a trap to capture him. She's a darkfriend, and is under someone's control, but does not seem to know that Anath is Semirhage. So if Semirhage is controlling her she's doing it on the sly.<br /><br />It seems to me that to further her nefarious purposes she'd be much better off without headstrong Tuon involved in controlling Rand at all. And she has plenty of other options. #1 is Alwhin, a suldam who's at least manipulative or evil and likely a dark friend, and was raised to a level higher than is typical for suldam due to her blackmail of Suroth (I forget the exact details), plus many other loyal damane. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 15:04:18
subject: <b>There IS a very good reason for Tuon to return to Ebou Dar</b>
body:
Mat made a promise to Tuon that as soon as it was safe he would send her back.  By putting the show under her protection Tuon has made it safe for Mat to let her go.  (If anyone decides to search for damane or other stuff all Valan Luca has to do is show his paper.)  Mat HAS to keep his promise.  <br /><br />Tuon has every reason to return to Ebou Dar.  Tuon is the highest ranking leader of the return.  Even being under the veil, Suroth defers to her.  It is her responsibility and Tuon keeps her responsibilities.  <br /><br />By wearing the rosebuds and accepting the gift from Mat of silk, Tuon has accepted Mat as her husband to be.  (Heh, Tuon now is wearing something new and her dress was mostly blue all she needs now is something old to complete the wedding tradition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) By accepting Mat, I believe she has accepted her 'strange fate' that the damane predicted.  (Maybe even the knowledge of sul'dam (and herself) being able to chanel might have had its part, although it is doubtful she didn't know that from Suroth.)  By accepting her fate she is finally able to remove the veil and return to her responsibility!<br /><br />The three main questions ought to be:<br /><br />1.  How will Tuon's vision about and for the tower be changed.  Is she the golden hawk that Egwene envisions stretching out and merging with her.  (Does she send Eageanin to help in the WT as in Egwene's CoT dream.)<br /><br />2.  Will Mat stay with Tuon and for how long.  Mat has other obligations that are tugging him North.  He has been away from the band for too long for instance.  (For that matter the fact that the pattern has given Mat the BotRH and that they feel that he needs them prooves that Mat's link to the Seanchen empire will be somewhat tenuous.)<br /><br />3.  What is Tuon/Anath's plan for Rand.  Was she even aware of the 'male a'dam' when they formulated the plan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-12 04:20:24
subject: <b>Acting skills</b>
body:
I still think it is impossible for Talaan and Merilile to impersonate Seanchan. As we know from Mesaana, all you can do in the way of hiding your real voice is making it sound like a chime, apparently you cannot change accent or tone. So it will still take lots of talent and practice to sound like somebody else, and I don't think it would be possible for Semirhage to teach that so fast to someone, or give them all the right cultural reflexes, that simply cannot be taught in such a short time. <br />Now I've started thinking about voices, I am suddenly coming up with an idea about Taimandred. What if LT was right, that he did recognize Taim as Demandred but couldn't exactly point out why, because the looks were wrong (mirror of mists) but the voice was still Demandreds. Voices often have something familiar but it is much more difficult to recognize them.


created: 2003-02-12 07:05:54
subject: <b>a few important points</b>
body:
1. vandene killed her sister, this is simple logic, and not that surprising.<br /><br />2. i do think that rand meeting the so called daughter of the nine moons will lead to his chaining but most likely either thirteen damane or another trick, not anyone rand whoul trust, just think how mistrusting he is right now.<br /><br />just worth a thought.


created: 2003-02-12 09:04:27
subject: <b>To RabitWombat-</b>
body:
Tuon already has something old- Setelle Anan. Seems like she's all set to get married. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-12 11:53:23
subject: <b>to smallcatherine</b>
body:
u are hearing voices in your head!(jk) taim is not demandred.  reread winter's heart if u have to.<br /><br />accent?  tone?  cultural reflexes?  i don't think rand would recognize if the seanchan drawl or reflexes wasn't perfect. and as usual, i think that just because we haven't seen things before, doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done.  the good guys and bad guys are always surprising us.  but i like your counterpoints to mine. thanks!


created: 2003-02-12 13:26:35
subject: <b>Re: *COT* Merilille, Talaan, Metarra and the leaving</b>
body:
It's also very likey, I think, that when Rand meets with Suroth, and Semirhidge is also there, with him gaining Lews Therin's memories, he's very likely to recognize her. He said once before that he's fairly certain that he could recognize all of the forsaken.


created: 2003-02-12 13:53:52
subject: <b>Why Merille doesn't have to be a dark friend for this to work.</b>
body:
If the sea folk gal is a dark friend then she could convince Merille that they need to sace the dragon reborn. However she need not be a friend of the dark. If she were to receive word from a trusted source that the Coramoor is in danger she may yet convince Merille.<br /><br />   So it's not necessary for a dark friend to be in on the fix and it having to be Merille or even Talaan. Besides maybe the two ladies just decided to elope.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-12 22:24:01
subject: <b>Still</b>
body:
Suroth insisted on Rand meeting the DOTNM. Why bother to set p a fake for someone Rand didn't even know existed? WHy not just meet him herself, say she is in charge of the returning (which she is until Tuon removes the veil), and make the treaty. <br /><br />And why get someone from across the globe to play the role, rather than a local darkfriend under her control?


created: 2003-02-13 03:00:05
subject: <b>to prince of dawn</b>
body:
Rand knows the Seanchan accent. It's as simple as that. He won't fall for any fraud who doesn't at least sound Seanchan. Further, I cannot imagine the DotNM would be able to meet him without a proper entourage; most of the Blood in Ebou Dar, who certainly would notice wrong cultural reflexes. Thus, any fraud would have to be Seanchan ore have been with them for a very long time, and a good actress at that to realy make herself believable. There are two much more viable candidates for such a thing; Semirhage herself and Liandrin. <br />By the way, you might want to practice on your English, you really are not very easy to understand.


created: 2003-02-13 10:17:37
subject: <b>to smallcatherine</b>
body:
practice my english?  are u for real?  no one else has a problem with my english.  why don't u learn how to spell (i.e. &quot;ore&quot; and &quot;realy&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />?   <br /><br />and as for the fake DOTNM having to be a real good actress, whose to say the sea folk windfinder isn't a regular meryl streep?  i'm so sure darkfriends of suroth's stature (not to mention semi herself) would pin their hopes on some low-level idiot who doesn't know a facade from a hole in the ground.) i bet ur one of the many easily deceived moviegoers who actually thought minnie driver and colin farell were americans due to their &quot;perfect&quot; accents. and whose to say they don't have a host of darkfriends ready to be the DOTNM's entourage and make sure she DOESN'T mess up?  liandrin as DOTNM? yea, i'm sure her fair skin, rosebud mouth, and brown beaded-braids wouldn't make her conspicuous.  semi?  LTT has &quot;given&quot; rand the gift of all the forsaken's appearances. he'd notice her on spot (and illusion wouldn't make sense since they need to touch him to put the adam on; of course, rand could simply see it lying on a table and say, &quot;wow! that's pretty!  let me try it on!&quot;  i don't think this is going to happen, though.) <br /><br />i'm not saying my view is in fact the truth, it is ONLY a theory.  but what i AM saying is that your arguments don't hold much water.  it's a he said, she said thing.  we won't know until RJ tells us.


created: 2003-02-13 18:59:09
subject: <b>Anath is the woman channeler</b>
body:
We know that it is &quot;hard for her(semirhage) to attend these meetings(of the forsaken).  Why might you ask?  Because she is Anath in disguise.  I don't quite remember what book it was in but someone said Anath didn't have as much of a slurring accent as most of the Seanchan.  So we make the connection Semirhage=Anath.  Semirhage couldn't attend the forsaken meetings because she was too busy playing her role as one of the seanchan.  So she can channel.  And she is a woman.  Who has a male a'dam.  Look out Rand, Anath is coming to town.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;From the ashes of fire shall be woken<br />A light from the shadow shall spring<br />Renewed shall be Blade that was broken<br />the crownless again shall be king.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-15 13:55:06
subject: <b>Very weak connection.....</b>
body:
Merilille and Talaan are GOING TO THE WHITE TOWER!  Merillile is going to trade Talaan for re entry.  Forget about this theory, it doesn't hold any water at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-15 20:54:55
subject: <b>to columbo</b>
body:
i'm glad u gave so much evidence to ur comments.  if my container (theory to u, in case ur investigative skills couldn't figure that out) doesn't hold any water, ur comments aren't even a cup.<br /><br />good job, barney fife!  oops, i mean &quot;columbo.&quot;


created: 2003-02-16 19:51:56
subject: <b>hahahahaha!</b>
body:
That was a funny post!  but it doesn't change how I feel about the theory.  You don't have anything of value.  <br /><br />What the readers have is this.<br /><br />Talaan sweats talent and she wants to leave the windfinders and study with Aes Sedai to the point of sneaking away with Merilille.  Merilille is not, as you've pointed out, a proven darkfriend.  I will give her the benefit of the doubt.  Merilille has been brow beaten for a while now by the windfinders.  That being said I believe that Merilille would like also to return to the tower.  Returning to the tower with Talaan might grant her re entry and I think she's going to take a shot at it.<br /><br />Merilille and Talaan are going to the White Tower!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />P.S. prince, why so touchy?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 01:30:29
subject: <b>The &quot;DotNM&quot; Rand will meet is a fake</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai with Mat feel Rand and Nynaeve using the keys *after* they escape from Ebou Dar (in fact, a few days after they've made a run for it).  Rand makes arrangements to meet the Seanchan after he's used the keys, which would mean that the DotNM Suroth has for Rand to meet isn't the real DotNM.<br /><br />Sooo, unless Suroth is counting on finding Tuon before then (which I doubt, remember, she called for a Seeker a day to die until Tuon was found, and had to call if off because she realized she'd probably run out of Seekers before Tuon's discovery), Suroth is planning on using a stand-in.


created: 2003-05-15 22:24:15
subject: <b>Merilille, Talaan, etc</b>
body:
Talaan begged Nynaeve to take her to the WT to become a novice.  Now that Ny is gone, she has gotten Mer to take her. It`s as simple as that.<br /><br />Suroth probably intends to use the imposter Tuon who has been extorting merchants, in the company of Deathwatch Guards, as reported to Furyk by the Seeker.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 15:10:45
subject: <b>Mat and Tuon</b>
body:
RabidWombat states:<br /><br />&quot;Mat made a promise to Tuon that as soon as it was safe he would send her back. By putting the show under her protection Tuon has made it safe for Mat to let her go. (If anyone decides to search for damane or other stuff all Valan Luca has to do is show his paper.) Mat HAS to keep his promise. <br /><br />Tuon has every reason to return to Ebou Dar. Tuon is the highest ranking leader of the return. Even being under the veil, Suroth defers to her. It is her responsibility and Tuon keeps her responsibilities. <br /><br />By wearing the rosebuds and accepting the gift from Mat of silk, Tuon has accepted Mat as her husband to be. (Heh, Tuon now is wearing something new and her dress was mostly blue all she needs now is something old to complete the wedding tradition  ) By accepting Mat, I believe she has accepted her 'strange fate' that the damane predicted. (Maybe even the knowledge of sul'dam (and herself) being able to chanel might have had its part, although it is doubtful she didn't know that from Suroth.) By accepting her fate she is finally able to remove the veil and return to her responsibility!&quot;<br /><br />RabidWombat seems to be misinterpreting the most important part of this chapter.  I know it is very confusing, and some poor writing on RJ's part, and it took me a few reads to realize it, but it IS important and should not EVER be misquoted.<br /><br />Tuon specifically puts on her &quot;rite of passage&quot; to Luca a list of people who are NOT under her protection.  Mat's name is on top of this list.  Therefore, IT IS NOT SAFE FOR MAT TO RETURN TO EBOU DAR.  Tuon wants to stay with Mat, and she is NOT ready to go back to Ebou Dar yet.  We don't know what she's up to, exactly, but they are not going back to the city.


created: 2003-02-17 14:13:55
subject: <b>Some valid points</b>
body:
I know you and I had a discussion about this on a blackboard post earlier. I will agree the Dagger Icon is rather glaring evidence for your case. And what Burr suggested about Verin makes sense as well. The only thing that still bothers me is that it took so long for Moiraine to figure this out. Kind of makes her fallible.<br /><br /> Something came to mind while I was writing this response, though it doesn't really have to do with your theory. Why did they break out Padan Fain? After the encounter at the Eye, Ishy knew who Rand was. He tells Rand in TGH, that he can find him any time because he is ta'veren and it's like a thousand arrows are pointing him out. So Fain's usefulness is essentially over. A Fade or Trolloc could have safely brought the Horn to SG. In fact, the Shadow seems to be lacking interest in the Horn. Lanfear could have taken it anytime she wanted. <br /><br /> Good work BTW, I voted thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 15:22:00
subject: <b>Chaos maybe.</b>
body:
Fain/Mordeth says that Ba'alzamon himself pushed Trollocs and Fades into Shadar Logoth (paraphrased from Enyclopaedia WoT; presumeably in reference to the Trolloc Wars).  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that for every death in Shadar Logoth, Mashadar would just get stronger.  Maybe Ishamael wished Mordeth to become strong enough to cause chaos, so long as he didn't get <i>too</i> strong.  At the time Fain was released, he didn't seem very strong at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 15:26:10
subject: <b>Good theory!</b>
body:
When Fain is without the daggar he is not whole as seen through his POV.  Also seems that the longer he has the daggar the stronger he grows. <br /><br />Great Theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 05:43:28
subject: <b>Re: Chaos maybe?</b>
body:
<br /> That is a possibility I suppose. Aridohl was an ally to Manetheren, so creating chaos there, or simply closing them off from the world, ended up helping the Shadow in the long run.<br /><br /> As to Fain, I guess he had been a loyal DF up to that point, it just seemed like they went to a lot of trouble breaking him free if they only needed the Horn. It usually seems like the DO doesn't really care one way or the other about DFs, since there appears to be an endless supply of them. <br /><br /> And for Fain's powers, I'm not convinced that Moridin even knows Fain and Mordeth have merged, or that he came in contact with Machin Shin. We haven't seen Ishy/Moridin have any contact with him other than what Mo tells us about in tEotW. Obviously, he took off with the Horn, and stirred up trouble in the TR, earning the distinction of &quot;renegade&quot;. But he hasn't made a big show of his power other than at the rebel camp in Cairhien with the Mashadar-like fog, to my knowledge. I'm sure their were DFs in the camp,(Hanlon for one, but no Forsaken), but did anyone attribute that to Fain? Perhaps they thought the DO did it himself.<br /><br /> That's why I feel that Moridin is underestimating him now, by calling him only &quot;vermin&quot;. Moridin sees him as unimportant for now, but he could become important later, rather insignificant. Mostly I believe he sees him as a danger because he wants to kill Rand for causing his misery. And the DO's plan has always centered on Rand helping to break him free, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 14:41:54
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
Re: Mashadar like fog<br /><br />Don't agree it was Fain flexing his muscles. I know it has been a theory on here at some point, but it was likely to have simply been a bubble of evil, despite it's similarities with Mashadar. Mashadar was limited to Shadar Logoth, and could not go beyond the limits of the city. It just seems like too much of a stretch.<br /><br />Anyway, that's a bit of a side issue. Like the theory, and I believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 15:28:45
subject: <b>Glad you all liked it!</b>
body:
For me, one of the most enduring mysteries of the books is what Moiraine and Lan did in between Tifan's Wells and Toman Head.  One of the last lines of &quot;Watchers&quot; is Moiraine telling Vandene, &quot;I may already have found one(answer) I did not I sought.&quot;  Is she referring to Fain/Mordeth, or to the Black Ajah being on her tail?  Earlier in the chapter when Vandene is talking about the disputed qoute of the Prophecies that might link the Dragon Reborn to the Watchers on Toman Head she describes it as &quot;small&quot; and &quot;tenous&quot;.  Is this enough to send her haring off across the continent in an attempt to meet Rand and crew?  Finally, in TDR is her comment to Perrin in Tear: &quot;I have learned things in the last year, Perrin.  I am...more dangerous than when I came to Emond's Field.&quot;  Is she referring to learning Balefire, or some other extension of her powers, and how did this come about?<br /><br />I'm very happy that people seem to be enjoying the theory and seem to be getting some insight out of it.  Partial credit should definitely go to Light in the Night, because without our discussion on &quot;The Complete Case Against Vandene&quot; this would not have materialized.  I would like to say that I don't think there is a connection between Mashadar's power and Mordeth's.  Moiraine is probably reciting Tower lore when she says that Mordeth was trapped by Mashadar, but it would explain why he never left before his physical form died.  This would seem to indicate that Mordeth did not have any control over Mashadar, or receive any benefits from the deadly fog.  Also, I'm not sure that the Shadow knew which ta'veren was the Dragon Reborn at the time of Fain's jailbreak, so they may have wanted him for questioning.  It does seem apparent that they did not know any more about Mordeth's half-possesion than Moiraine did at the time, and likely only figured out something was wrong when Fain and the Horn failed to arrive in the Blight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 18:38:45
subject: <b>The_Gholam</b>
body:
You saw how Fain &quot;flexed his muscles&quot; in Winter's Heart didn't you?  I hope you didn't miss that part in Far Madding.  I agree that Mashadar was strictly a Shadar Logath thing.  The fog in the rebel camp didn't kill you when it touched you.  There were things in the fog that were killing people.  Fain dissappears before Rand has his fight, and the next time we see him is when he appears out of the fog and cuts Rand with the dagger.  There is to much there for it just to be a coincidental bubble of evil.<br />Keep readin.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> I do read sometimes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-18 20:08:48
subject: <b>Just to clarify</b>
body:
To The Gholam:<br /> I said Mashadar-like fog. I meant this to mean they were alike in that they were both fogs, and capable of killing people. I myself don't believe Mordeth controlled Mashadar, or that it was capable of leaving SL. <br /><br /> I suppose there is a possibility it could have been a bubble of evil, however, Fain seemed to run through it scot-free, while it was tearing people and horses alike to shreds. Just something to think about.<br /><br /> To Diomedes:<br /> Thanks for the mention. I too have often wondered what Mo did during that time. Did she learn BF on her own? Did one of the two sisters teach it to her earlier, off screen? Or someone else? We may find out later if we see Vandene use it. She at least kept busy part of the time by contacting all those women that bring them supplies in the MOM at the beginning of TDR. Also, Verin had told her about the writing on the wall of the dungeon that mentions Toman Head. That is where the question originated. Vandene adds enough to qualify it I guess.<br /><br /> And if you will remember, Rand fought Ishy at the Eye. He knew who he was before TGH breakout.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 01:56:54
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
You're right about Ishy knowing about them by TGH.  The scene I was thinking of was when Mat woke from a &quot;dream&quot; in which Ishy identified Mat after he picked up a clay figure with a ruby-hilted knife.  I thought that was after Fal Dara, but it was in Caemlyn.  Regardless, I think it's likely that Ishy would want any information that Fain had on the 3 ta'veren enough to have him freed from prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 13:39:48
subject: <b>Chasing the Dagger</b>
body:
Rand new at this time that he was the DR but did not want to believe it.  Before the breakout he was leaving to go and be by himself without anyone he loved.  Then fain escapes harms Egwene and Mat.  He taunts Rand with the writting on the wall.  Rand goes after him because of Mat's need for the dagger, and he puts together or maybe already knew Fain set the Trollocs on Edmond's Field.<br /><br />I think Fain did control the Fog outside of Cairhien.  It may not have been the complete SL fog but it came from him in my opinion.  I also think that Mordeth was confined to SL by more than just Mashadar, but  who knows.  It would be a cool twist if Fain could throw the fog out anytime he wants.<br /><br />Vandene ties the DR to Toman head with the flippant comment.  With the addition of the writting on the wall at Fal Dara MO puts it together.  Sometimes the most obvious things are hid under your nose, and I think RJ was showing the MO can miss the obvious just like all the rest with her not verbalizing till the end of tGH about fain/mordeth connection.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 11:32:32
subject: <b>Mashadar, Dragon, Ishy</b>
body:
I agree that there are some significant differences between Mashadar, and the killer fog outside Cairhien.  For one thing Mashadar kind of glows but not the other fog, and the Cairhien fog took on a kind of corporeal form before it struck anyone.  I don't have the text with me, but I think that the fog was actually touching them as they were running through it, but it didn't cause any harm until it formed its hands, or whatever.  On the other hand, Mashadar just needed the slightest brush to kill anything, and the way it killed was distinctly different.<br /><br />To Burr:  Is your Ba'alzamon driving in Trollocs referring to the &quot;flame&quot; that forced them into SL after Rand, et al, or something else?  And could you expand on how this effects the Verin/Moiraine's contradictory comments?  I've been thinking about and still haven't made the connection.<br /><br /><br />To Rabid Wolfbrother:  Rand did not know that he was the Dragon Reborn in Fal Dara.  He knew he could channel, and thought that Moiraine and Siuan were trying to manipulate him into proclaiming himself as a false Dragon.  Mo's original plan was to convince Mat and Perrin to take the Horn to Illian without any Aes Sedai, and she thought that Rand would jump at the chance to go with them.  Also, she is VERY concerned at the end of TGH that Rand has confronted Fain.  AFTER Vandene makes her comment about watchers or Watchers she thinks its a &quot;small and tenous&quot; link to Toman Head.  Personally, if I was desperate to find the Dragon Reborn before he was worse than turned to the Shadow(that's gotta be pretty bad!!) I would want more than a small and tenous clue before galloping across an entire continent.<br /><br />There's something else to consider in the discussion about Ishy knowing about the Fain/Mordeth team -- Aginor and Balthamel could sense the Dagger at the Eye of the World. Perhaps Luc, or the Myrddraal could sense the SL taint in Fain in the 2R.  Ishy was a pretty arrogant guy, and Moridin seems to be as well, so that might explain why he's so dismissive of Fain/Mordeth even if he knows about it. Another interesting question is who got there first, Fain and the Whitecloaks, or the Shadowspawn?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 18:03:17
subject: <b>I may have missed it but...</b>
body:
Where does it say the Imperial Family does not get tested?  Wouldn't this lead to someone of the family just stumbling into channelling when others are around?  I find it hard to believe that the Imperial family would have the all-encompassing control to stop even the sul'dam from talking  and avoid ALL notice even with the isolation those like Tuon experience.  This would also mean that Tuon knows she can channel (you have to know that something needs to be covered up before it can be covered up).  <br />I suppose on the other hand it would parellel (and Jordan does love parellels) the situation with the wise ones and their knowledge of their origens in The Way of The Leaf.  It would mean at least the Empress (and I would think many of the Imperial Family) know and accept channelling, just not to their people. That knowledge becoming known would have a similar effect as that visited upon the Aiel.  <br />Perhaps another possibility is that she could learn to channel(and therefore could become sul'dam) and she found out by, on a whim, ordering one of her sul'dam to let her try the bracelet out.  While doing this she finds out she can control it and then goes through the steps to make it official so she could train as a sul'dam.  <br />It will be interesting how this works out, but there is one thing for sure, she will be &quot;one of the strongest channellers ever&quot; (wink, wink, nudge, nudge Burr)


created: 2003-02-18 18:14:28
subject: <b>She would be found out</b>
body:
You don't need to be tested if you have the spark inborn.  Tuon is 19, and since the Tower doesn't take women older than 18, that means the ability will manifest by then if the woman is born with the spark.  Any woman who can channel can sense a woman with the inborn ability, even if they can't see each other.  Nesune Bihara was able to sense Egwene even if she had no reason to believe there was anyone else in the room in LoC, and Moiraine spotted Nynaeve the same way in EotW.  Someone would have sensed the ability in Tuon if the spark was inborn.<br />  Essentially, however, it makes no practical difference if she is.  The point is she can learn to channel, and thus one more facet of Mat's anti-ideal woman is exposed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 19:13:16
subject: <b>further to the comments of cannoli</b>
body:
Tuon is currently travelling with three Aes Sedai. If Tuon is going to be a chaneller with the spark inborn, she will be a strong one in keeping with all the other important chanellers in the series. Given that, I would have thought at least one of the Aes Sedai she's currently travelling with would have noticed something by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 20:22:24
subject: <b>No she doesn't</b>
body:
Basically, your only argument is that she MAY have the spark inborn, so - thinking we know Jordan's mind - we can go on to assuming she does. The most important counterargument has been raised above: she'd have been found out. By the Aes Sedai, but also by damane before - all damane can sense marath'damane. What you quote about Tuon being first tested for sul'dam on adulthood as opposed to Seanchan commoners being tested annually for a series of years seems interesting, but the conclusion is highly unlikely. Let's try another way of interpreting the quotes. I can think of two, and I think neither is less justified than your interpretation, but both are more viable.<br />One interpretation: &quot;adulthood&quot; does not mean 18 or 21 or whatever years of age for Seanchan blood, but say 12 or 14 or the like. Note that your quote says &quot;all Seanchan young women&quot; rather than &quot;all Seanchan girls&quot; - implying that the testing does not start at a very early age, definitely after puberty. Also note that in the WoT world, people are considered &quot;of age&quot; somewhat sooner than in our modern world. And finally, note that Seanchan royalty do play significant political roles (and go through assassination attempts) at pretty early ages.<br />Another interpretation: Seanchan blood are tested for Damane just like everyone else, but the sul'dam test is optional for them. This would be completely logical: you can't let marath'damane run wild even if they are Blood. They have to be made damane. However, being a sul'dam is just a job - an important job, true, but not as important as being the member of the royal family. Also note that there have been occasions of daughters of the Empress (mslf) being taken for damane and struck for the record - so obviously at least some have been tested.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your words sing in my ears,<br />Redwood Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 23:20:39
subject: <b>She not only has the spark, she's been channelling for some time</b>
body:
&quot;A possible criticism against her having the spark would be to say that it never manifested itself. But, the thing is, it has. She is twenty now, and started training damane as soon as she was an adult, which is about eighteen let's say.<br />&quot;<br /><br />Tuon is actually 19, about four months shy of 20.  She tested as a Sul'dam at age 16.  Those ages are specifically stated in converstions with Mat.<br /><br />Tuon looks like she's much younger, maybe as young as 12-14.  At least 14 is the age Mat guesses when he flat out asks her age.<br /><br />The disparity between her age and appearance sounds like she started &quot;slowing&quot; early and slowing at a nearly unheard of rate, basedonthe descriptions trhoughout the series of the effects of slowing.  The slowing ratio implies she's <i>very</i> strong, because the amount of slowing is related to the potential strength.<br /><br />Tuon thinks of two of her siblings being struck from the book &quot;as if they had been <i>discovered</i> channeling&quot; -- NOT &quot;as if they were <i>able</i> to channel&quot;  The wording suggests that many, if not all, of the Imperial family can channel and know how to mask the ability as Moggy and Messaana do.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 23:48:45
subject: <b>one point to add</b>
body:
The strongest chanellers that we are aware of all have the spark but it doesn't stand to reason that learners can't be just as strong.  Sharina Malloy will be stronger than Nynaeve and she is a grandma, yet there is no indication that she is a wilder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 23:56:23
subject: <b>Yes, this theory works.</b>
body:
It is perfectly reasonable that Tuon has the spark born in her.<br /><br />Just because sul'dam haven't &quot;sensed&quot; her as being able to channel doesn't mean she doesn't have the spark. It just means she hasn't been tested for it. Sul'dam can't distinguish between women who have the spark inborn and those who can learn to channel, not when they have learned to actually channel. They can only sense the ability to channel. Otherwise they would have noticed the difference in the Aes Sedai they caught. (This would only be discounted if ALL of the Aes Sedai they caught had the spark born in them, highly unlikely, imo.)<br /><br />At the time of testing for damane and sul'dam, the girls haven't learned to channel one spit, so there's no way for them to distinguish between those with the spark and those who can learn except by special testing, similar to the male testing, perhaps.<br /><br />Also, all sul'dam can channel, but no one has sensed the ability in them. The reason is that their ability is so small and limited that it can't be noticed. It is possible that this is the case with Tuon as well (but the above explanation of her being able to disguise her ability is appealing, also).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 02:03:56
subject: <b>Cannoli and shooganooga have it right.</b>
body:
There is no way that once a spark has manifested itself, it can be missed by an experienced channeller.<br /><br />Nynaeva and Elayne wouldn't even walk down the streeths of Falme without worrying about passing too close to a damane, who would sense the spark in them.<br /><br />Also, it's not feasible... if she can be suldam, but has the spark as you suggested, then abviously it would have manifested itself by now. <br /><br />It hasn't.<br /><br />She doesn't ahve the saprk, but she can be trained to be a very powerful channeler, of that I am sure.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 05:56:27
subject: <b>But here's the sticky part in this discussion</b>
body:
&quot;Do you think that I can stand face-to-face with a woman who can touch the True Source and channel the One Power, even if only now and then, without knowing what she is? Just as you sensed the potential in Egwene.&quot;<br /><br />EotW, ch 21, p 319, pb<br /><br />Here, Moiraine says that she can sense any who can channel, without saying anything about the spark. But she also says &quot;Just as you sense the potential in Egwene&quot;, suggesting something about the ability to sense the spark. After reading that, I'm not quite sure what to make of it.<br /><br />But, if what Moiraine says is true, then an Aes Sedai (and thus likely damane as well) could sense the ability to channel in sul'dam. And what about the possibility of sul'dam being able to sense the ability in other sul'dam? And what do we do with a sul'dam's sense of her own ability to channel? Are all sul'dam aware of it, and just keep quiet? And keep their damane quiet as well?<br /><br />Lots of questions here, if you ask me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 06:30:39
subject: <b>A Question for Danae</b>
body:
&quot;Also, it's not feasible... if she can be suldam, but has the spark as you suggested, then abviously it would have manifested itself by now. <br /><br />It hasn't.<br /><br />She doesn't ahve the saprk, but she can be trained to be a very powerful channeler, of that I am sure.&quot; -- Danae alThor<br /><br />How  then do you account for the obvious slowing Tuon shows. She's nearly twenty and looks barely pubescent.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 06:52:03
subject: <b>Slowing?</b>
body:
I don't think Tuon is slowing, she implied she hadn't grown anymore for several years, thus she has gone through puberty and is physically adult, she just has the bad luck of being extremely short.


created: 2003-02-19 12:45:48
subject: <b>Tuon is not slowing</b>
body:
Tuon is not slowing at all ... Nynaeve is just starting to slow and she is a very powerful channeler. I think Tuon is a small woman with small breasts ! The opposite of what Mat usually like !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 15:43:18
subject: <b>re: No she doesn't</b>
body:
We know Seanchan test very young girls, since Alivia was collared at 14. A small point, but worth noting.


created: 2003-02-19 16:49:57
subject: <b>WH comment</b>
body:
Reanne Corly is showing the sul'dams weaves when they are held in an a'dam in Caemlyn. I dont have the book on hand, but she says that they are poised on the line of channeling, but have not taken the next step. She has &quot;never sensed anything like it.&quot;<br />Go look. Its there.<br />This points out that only when held by a'dam, which force a link, does the ability become apparent. Rember, sul'dams call being attached to damanae 'complete'. Sounds like a muted version of the sharpness of life which channelers get.<br /><br />Tuon MAY have the spark, but yes or no, it wouldnt be apparent unless she was leashed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 17:26:31
subject: <b>definately not</b>
body:
As others have mentioned, if she had the spark one of the Aes Sedai in Mat's party would have said something, especially if her potential was what you want it to be.  She isn't slowing either, because being a sul'dam is not channeling, she just looks younger than she is.  I know a girl who's 21 who could pass for being 14 without question.  The other problem that I have with this theory is that if she had been born with the spark then it would have had to manifested already and RJ would have included something in the books to show us at least part of her Power Acquisition Fever-Syndrome, or at least given us a memory of her wanting something very badly and getting it, implying that she had unconsciously channeled.  But there isn't and all of your arguements are merely supposition on your part, there's no actual proof.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 18:24:23
subject: <b>No spark, no slowing</b>
body:
All of this might have been said before, but I'd like to say it anyway.  While it is certain Tuon has the ability to learn, she doesn't have the spark.  She would definately been caught by now by the Aes Sedai traveling with Mat.  Or the damane she's surely been around all of her life.  I think the feelings for channelers that the Seanchan have outweigh the authority of the Crystal Throne.<br /><br />And Tuon hasn't started slowing yet, either.  One doesn't start to slow until they've been channeling for a while, give or take a few years according to strength.  Wilders slow because they have actually channeled before, and wilders have the spark in them.  Regardless of the strength of a person who has the ability to learn, they won't start slowing until they actually have learned.  Take Sharina: she's a woman who is very strong in the Power, but she wasn't born with the spark, so she never slowed; she's an old woman, a grandmother.<br />So, Tuon hasn't started slowing yet because nobody has taught her how to channel.  She's just very young looking.<br /><br />I agree, though, that she will be one of the strongest in the Power when she learns to channel.<br /><br />Well, that's my two bits.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Khorja&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> WolfSister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 18:28:46
subject: <b>:-(</b>
body:
I posted this comment in the &quot;Setalle Anan, Tuon, and Mat the King&quot; thread the day before this theory was posted! I didn't think it was worth putting into a theory by itself :-(<br /><br />I'm going off to sulk now...<br /><br /><br />&quot;Tuon and the spark<br />Submitted by Jimbo on 2/17/2003 6:38:25 PM  <br />I don't think Tuon can channel, but I do believe she has &quot;the spark&quot;, much in the same way Egwene did when Morainne first tested her way back in the first book. I think the same can be said of all Suldam, none can channel (otherwise they'd be picked up as Damane) but they all have the potential, the spark, that given proper training can develop into the ability to channel.<br /><br />Just out of interest, is there any mention anywhere of Suldam dying early or losing their ability to train Damane? I only ask because of the observation that Girls with the spark in them will likely burn themselves out or die young without the proper training.&quot;<br /><br /><br />In short, yes I do agree and have thought for quite sometime now that all the Suldam have the spark in them<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 19:55:29
subject: <b>Probably not</b>
body:
Some girls just look young, and Tuon has all the physical characteristics of such a girl.<br /><br />And when Tuon thinks of two of her siblings being struck from the book &quot;as if they had been discovered channeling&quot; to me this suggests that even the Imperial family is tested for having the spark. There is no way that she was not tested, AND noone noticed that she has the spark. Anyone with the spark can be detected by Damane (remember the girl leased in Ebou Dar, because &quot;she had the misfortune for the spark to manifest itself on the very day the Seachan took over&quot;. Of course as someone else said, she could still be very strong aka Sharina (has anyone figured out yet why Sharina was Nynaeve's Aes Sedi in her test?).<br /><br />How could you assume that &quot;many, if not all, of the Imperial family can channel and know how to mask the ability as Moggy and Messaana do.&quot; That seems a huge leap. Maybe some can learn, and even slow (may she live forever), but actually being able to channel, and having sophisticated tricks from the Age of Legends? Probably not.


created: 2003-02-19 20:07:37
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
There is a passage that references the tests and the Imperial Family.  When Tuon is thinking about her siblings that were sent to the block she says (paraphrased) that their names had been struck from the family roles as if they had been found to be damane.  EVERY woman is tested as a damane, but not everyone is tested as Sul'dam.  That and the fact that damane can tell when another channeler is present, but they can't sense a Sul'dam.  Why?  Because the Sul'dam never embrace the Source.  They know HOW to channel, but they DON'T channel themselves.  The second they did, damane would be able to sense them.  Just the fact that the Aes Sedai with Mat didn't know she could channel means that, if she does have the spark, it hasn't manifested yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 21:00:19
subject: <b>Tuon and Nyneave's slowing</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Submitted by The_Wanderer    on 2/19/2003 12:45:48 PM  <br />Tuon is not slowing at all ... Nynaeve is just starting to slow and she is a very powerful channeler. I think Tuon is a small woman with small breasts ! The opposite of what Mat usually like !</b></font><br /><br />Nyneave has apparently aged about four years in the ten or so sinced she first channeled. If Tuon is close to Nyneave in the power, then she would have aged about one year since she first channelled about six years ago.<br /><br />The intitial descriptions of Nyneave and Tuon both make much of their apparent youth.<br /><br />RJ, could be playing a joke on Mat by matching him with the opposite of what he prefers, but too many other signs say RJ is more subtle than that in his match-making.  The simple fact that Tuon can channel and Mat knows it is sufficient for that gag.<br /><br />The exact quote about Tuon's siblings is, &quot;A sister and a brother had been made <i>da'covale</i> and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as <b>if it had been discovered</b> they could channel.&quot; (emphasis mine)<br /><br />It's a very small clue, but RJ chooses his words very carefully.  Tuon doesn't think &quot;as if they could channel&quot; but as if &quot;it had been discovered they could channel.&quot;  <br /><br />I think that this is a strong hint that Seanchan Royalty can channel and that implies that they have some method of hiding the fact (whether they avoid testing or not.)<br /><br />There is also Anath's comment about, &quot;'You must be very careful,' Anath purred. 'You must not let him know how dangerous you are to him until it is too late for him to escape.'&quot;<br /><br />Most people assume this comment is connected to the &quot;Sad Bracelets,&quot; but at that point, they're in Suroth's possesion and there is no reason to believe that Tuon knows about them.  It could just as easily apply to some channeling Talent that Tuon has <i>and knows about</i>.  <br /><br />This fits with RJ's style of identifying wilders by describing their apparent age and just about the only way that Tuon can be a significant enough channeller to be useful in the time remaining. It also fits with his penchant for revealing a character's abilities in small hints over a period of time.<br /><br />Tuon's physical development is too much out of the ordinary for other characters in the WoT for it NOT to be an indication of slowing from a very early age.  Virtually every instance of young looking characters has been a foreshadowing of slowing. Tuon almsot has to be a continuation of that trend.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 01:00:11
subject: <b>Doubtful, but possible...</b>
body:
I thought at first that it was pretty much impossible for it to happen, but this is RJ we're talking about here, and after reading Wierd Harold's comment right before mine, I agree that the only way for Tuon to be useful at channeling in the series is for her to have the spark and somehow have hidden it. I agree that she probably will be an extremely powewrful channeler, if not as powerful as the Big 3, but, the Aes Sedai she's travelling with haven't even seen her as far as I can recall, so that's not a big deal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 18:07:15
subject: <b>She does not have the spark</b>
body:
Tuon cannot have the spark.  She is both too old, and she was tested for it.  First it is quite specficly pointed out that women who have the spark start using the power when they are 15 or 16 at the latest.  Tuon is close to the same age as Mat at 20 or 21.  While I don't have the quote in front of me but one of the Senchan said that the members of the blood who could channel had their names erased from the records.  <br />    Tuon can channel the way that all of the Sul damne can channel.  She has the ability to learn but will not channel unless she is taught.


created: 2003-02-20 22:33:18
subject: <b>I don't think she has the spark...</b>
body:
but what if she has Morgase-strength spark?  Would the Seanchan bother keeping her collared?  Would the collar even work on somebody who is just strong enough to feel the saidar beacon of the cleansing and pretty much nothing else?<br /><br />But, anyway, I'm pretty sure imperials are tested for damane, but they are above testing for sul'dam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 23:46:58
subject: <b>Everone <i>knows</i> ...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Submitted by Logan5    on 2/20/2003 6:07:15 PM  <br />Tuon cannot have the spark. She is both too old, and she was tested for it. First it is quite specficly pointed out that women who have the spark start using the power when they are 15 or 16 at the latest. Tuon is close to the same age as Mat at 20 or 21. While I don't have the quote in front of me but one of the Senchan said that the members of the blood who could channel had their names erased from the records. </b></font><br /><br />I think everyone is just ass-u-me-ing that Tuons comment about, &quot;stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel,&quot; means that the Imperial Family is tested like commoners.  It's entirely possible that Seanchan commoners and those simply &quot;raised to the Blood&quot; are making the same erroneous assumption RJ has lead many readers to.<br /><br />Anytime I see RJ imply &quot;everyone knows that...&quot; I'm willing to bet that &quot;everyone&quot; is wrong again.  After all, everyone <i>knows</i> that Aes Seadai can speak no word that isn't true, and that means they can't write a lie either. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Tuon is 19, nealry 20, but looks 14 -- coincidentally about the age most women with the spark start channeling.  She <i>may</i> be an exeption and took up training <i>damane</i> to hide her ability the way Nyneave did when resuing Egwene in Falme; &quot;If any sensed her abilityto channel they would just assume it was Seta.&quot;<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Submitted by Your.Master    on 2/20/2003 10:33:18 PM  <br />but what if she has Morgase-strength spark? Would the Seanchan bother keeping her collared? Would the collar even work on somebody who is just strong enough to feel the saidar beacon of the cleansing and pretty much nothing else?</b></font><br /><br />Tallanvor is initially described as being Galad's age (About 25 or 26 in tEoTW).  In tPoD when Perin resues them, he comments that Morgase always calls him &quot;young Talanvor&quot; although &quot;it didn't look like there was more than four or five years between them.&quot;<br /><br />While in Amador, Morgase's POV says she could actually touch the source maybe one time in ten. (Thereby confirming she has channeled at least once to start the slowing.)<br /><br />Since Morgase has a son (nearly) as old as Talanvor, it's obvious even her few touchs of the source when training in the White Tower were enough to start the slowing.  Logically that would be enough talent for her to be a <i>Sul'dam</i> or <i>damane</i>.  Perhaps the forced link of the <i>a'dam</i> might even be able to train someone as weak as Morgase to actually use the OP effectively and consistently.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:33:59
subject: <b>It continually blows me away how much stock people are putting in one ambiguous quote</b>
body:
&quot;.. or the brothers and sisters she had been taught from her first steps to battle for their mother's favor. Two of them had died in those struggles so far, and three had tried to kill her. A sister and a brother had been made da'covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel..&quot; WH p. 323<br /><br />Now, how about looking to the glossary into the common, public knowledge definition of a damane:<br />&quot;.. Just as with young men found able to channel, damane are written out of family records and removed from the roles of citizens, in effect ceasing to exist as people..&quot; Glossary of tSR<br /><br />The first quote is a simple statement that brothers and sisters of tuon's had been made da'covale in the competition for their mother's affections because they lost. No one wants to remember them as part of the family and their names were stricken from the books, &quot;as if it had been discovered they could channel,&quot; using that analogy simply because that is the group of people whose names are commonly known to be stricken. It's like saying &quot;I took care of my brothers sprained ankle as if i was a doctor&quot; just because the common definition of a doctor is someone who heals. <br /><br />People need to let go of that quote. I didn't include it in the theory, or my response to it, because it doesn't even deserve the attention. It says nothing about anyone in the family channeling or being tested and has no bearing on the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 19:35:16
subject: <b>Tuon hasn't been complete yet</b>
body:
Ah, Weird Harold, Galad is not Morgase's son, he is her step-son, so his age is irrevelent.<br /><br />And Tuon hiding her spark by being a sul'dam would only work when she had a damane in tow, and since we have never seen her 'complete' that is obviously quite rare.


created: 2003-02-22 00:04:57
subject: <b>The slowing of Morgase and other things</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Submitted by Adrian    on 2/21/2003 7:35:16 PM  <br />Ah, Weird Harold, Galad is not Morgase's son, he is her step-son, so his age is irrevelent.</b></font><br /><br />Good point, however Gawyn is older than Elayne's twenty-something so her age is still much higher than &quot;five or six years older than Talanvor.&quot;<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>And Tuon hiding her spark by being a sul'dam would only work when she had a damane in tow, and since we have never seen her 'complete' that is obviously quite rare <br /></b></font><br /><br />While we've never actually &quot;seen&quot; her complete, there is ample evidence she's &quot;complete&quot; fairly often.  If she does know how to concel her ability (an admittedly weak assumption)the only time she'd need to conceal it by being complete was when she was actually using it.<br /><br /><br />There is another point to consider about why Tuon hasn't been exposed by damane:  The Seanchan are very good at NOT seeing things. i.e. when Tuon is &quot;under the veil&quot; most Seanchan truly treat her as &quot;The High Lady Tuon&quot; and not as tDoNM.  <br /><br />As to why she hasn't been exposed by the three AS with the group, I can't remember any time that she's actually been face-to-face with any of them.  They wouldn't necessarily say anything to anyone if they did notice, because it would be the same as chaining her in their eyes -- something they'd be adamantly opposed to.<br /><br />I think the evidence definitely points to the Royal Family being channelers who for some reason are exempt from exposure unless they do something really stupid like channeling in public, or who know how to hide the ability.  Tuon definitely can channel and probbly started channeling at a very young age.  It will not surprise me in the least when we RAFO that she's both very strong and well trained.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 09:17:47
subject: <b>The Crystal Throne</b>
body:
Don't you think its probably some kind of angreal? I think the Emperess does diffinetly channel. And it would have to be with more knowledge and ability then a sul'damne has. I believe somewhere in the vastness of WoT there is some description of people who meet the Emperess and they become slack jawed and such like compulsion is being used on them. Just becaues the Aes Sedai in Randland have lost many of the abilities from the AoL doesn't mean the Senchean have. Look, they have been making the al'dam (a ter'angreal) for years. Who knows what else they do? So maybe Tuon is masking her ability and was taught to do so by mummy. IMHO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="silver">*busy as a *beaver*</font></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 02:22:15
subject: <b>To those thinking the Imperial Family can channel...</b>
body:
It would be like Jordan to throw a twist in the story like havining the Imperial Family channeling in secret to preserve their reign, but then wouldn't someone notice that the Empress really does &quot;live forever&quot;?  They don't have the oath rod to bind themselves, so the average life span of one of the Imperial Family would be about 300 yrs (give or take a couple hundred) if they could channel.<br />


created: 2003-02-25 07:11:28
subject: <b>Crystal Throne and channeling Empresses.</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>The Crystal Throne<br />Submitted by Denice Sedai<br /><br />Don't you think its probably some kind of angreal? I think the Emperess does diffinetly channel. And it would have to be with more knowledge and ability then a sul'damne has. I believe somewhere in the vastness of WoT there is some description of people who meet the Emperess and they become slack jawed and such like compulsion is being used on them. <br />... So maybe Tuon is masking her ability and was taught to do so by mummy. </b></font><br /><br />From the Encyclopedia WOT Entry on the Crystal Throne:<br /><font size="-1"><b>Guide - The Crystal Throne is, in fact, a <i>ter'angreal</i> that inspires awe in all who approach. <br />It does not require channeling. (from Winter's Heart signings) </b></font><br /><br />Now the fact that the Crystal Throne does not require channeling according to RJ does NOT necessarily mean that Tuon in particular and the Royal family in general can't channel and hide it.  <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>To those thinking the Imperial Family can channel...<br />Submitted by riverdove    <br /><br />...wouldn't someone notice that the Empress really does &quot;live forever&quot;? They don't have the oath rod to bind themselves, so the average life span of one of the Imperial Family would be about 300 yrs (give or take a couple hundred) if they could channel.</b></font><br /><br />A powerful channeler without any binding can live up to 700 years.  Some moderate powered Kin are over 400.  <br /><br />However, given Tuon's musing about her youth and the infighting within the Royal Family in (WH Ch 14), &quot;natural life span&quot; doesn't seem to be a problem.  I'd bet that very few Empresses (or the one Emperor Tuon remembers) &quot;died in bed.&quot;  I don't <i>know</i> that the infighting includes more than a fight to be the heir -- i.e. plotting to take advantage of being the heir, but I wouldn't bet against it.  The Seanchan version of the Game of Houses seems to be played only by the Royal Family and is more bloodthirsty than the Cairhienen version.  I'd bet there is a very elaborate set of rules and customs involved that keep the Royal Blood from completely doing away with themselves.<br /><br /><br />Of course it has been specualted that &quot;May she live forever&quot; is more than a wish for good health.  It could be n acknowledgement that she will outlive everyone except her <i>damane</i>.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 16:23:07
subject: <b>The Crystal Throne</b>
body:
I, of course, have no books with me to back ANYTHING up right now, but when Tuon thinks about the last man to hold the Seanchan throne, I clearly remember it being over a thousand years ago or so, and the whole thing ended badly for him.  We know that the Crystal throne is a ter'angreal, but channelling required or no, is it only attuned to women? <br /><br />As for the Empress, the &quot;may she live forever&quot; thing does seem to imply that maybe, a long long time ago, the Empresses of Seanchan DID seem to live forever.  <br /><br />Something to think about, at least!


created: 2003-03-01 05:32:32
subject: <b>Regarding the slowing issue</b>
body:
Tuon is 19.  Says so in both CoT &amp; WH.  Elayne has been 18 for a good while now, and she is too young to have slowed according to Setalle Anan.  No one slows when they are 18 or younger, and even if she had started slowing &quot;early&quot; there isn't that much difference in appearance between 18 &amp; 19 year-old women.  She wouldn't look younger.  Anyway, Elayne says to Nynaeve about slowing that how much you slow depends on your strength, but WHEN you start to slow is the same for everyone.  Tuon might not age any more, but she couldn't have already started slowing.  As for proof of Elayne's age, in LoC she is 18, in PoD, Aviendha is not yet 20, and in CoT, Elayne says Aviendha is 1 year older than she is.  <br /><br />Also someone said all the important chanelers are powerful. You mean like Siuan, Leane, Morgase, Sorilea, Vandene, etc.?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 15:23:46
subject: <b>As If</b>
body:
Firstly Tuon is 19 and Seachan adulthood begins at 16.  Secoundly not all main girls are channelers, neither Faile or Berelain do.  Thirdly whether or not a girl has the spark HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER POTENTIONAL.  Nicola dosen't have the spark but she comes close to Elayne and Eggy.  Finally the is the idea that Seatlle Anan may be a stilled Aes Sedai.


created: 2003-03-04 22:27:19
subject: <b>Crystal Throne/Ruling family channelers</b>
body:
First, the fact that RJ says that the Crystal Throne doesn't need channeling doesn't mean that it doesn't need a channeler.  It could need someone to hold the One Power, though.  In TSR, Egwene says that there is a difference between channeling and simply holding the One Power.<br /><br />Second, I think that the Royal family can channel, some of the men as well as the women.  That could be why the last Emperor failed, by going mad.  It would explain the &quot;May she live forever&quot; because the Emperess can always channel and does live longer than most, by centuries sometimes.  That would explain Tuon being able to channel, and also I agree that she has learned to hide it, because she the damane would find out if she didn't.<br /><br />Thirdly, an a'dam works on any woman that can channel.  All sul'dam can channel, they just have a block; they need to do it through a damane.


created: 2003-03-07 08:18:29
subject: <b>She would have been outed by now</b>
body:
If Tuon had the spark since birth it would have been sensed by Sul'dam and she would be in a collar.


created: 2003-03-13 15:06:04
subject: <b>Madness not a requirment for failing</b>
body:
The last emperor need not have gone mad to fail. I read it as another *indirect* consequence of the taint. As women casn safely channel, and men cannot, there is a slight inferiority complex in all WoT societies. <br />Put simply: Matriarchy.<br />The Wise Ones have huge power, *even* though many of them cannot channel. In the same way, few men ever reach the heights paved with daggers. We have a similar (but reversed) system, without any need for an OP. This sort of &quot;inbalance in the force&quot; :-) is why the WoTlands are stagnating and decaying, and we spent thousands of years in constant war. Probably. :-)<br />btw, I think someone said something about the Empress' children being taken damane, and no-one being allowed to mourn, in TGH. However, this might be only the normal Blood.<br /><br />Carai an Astasia!


created: 2003-03-14 21:54:45
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
There is one point that I don't believe anyone will argue. RJ does not believe in accidents or chance. Sure, when it comes to Mat, there is luck, but chance is another thing entirely. Doesn't it seem odd that Tuon is so young looking? Why would he put such a repeated description in his book? I believe that it is the result of the power. How? I do not know. Maybe it has something to do with the blood of the Blood. Mabey it is from the spark. There is still some lurking variable that we don't know. What ever it is, it is not an accident.


created: 2003-03-30 12:22:39
subject: <b>Oerwhelhming No</b>
body:
Number one the spark does mean a hannler will be strong but Nicola is just bit behind Egwene and DOES NOT HAVE THE SPARK.<br />The Imperil family is probaly not teated for sul'dam cuse they have other things to do but these people hate channlers so I doubt anyone dosn't get tested.  Plus RJ can't do that to poor Mat.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Forever


created: 2003-04-01 02:21:57
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
Where does it say Sharina and Nicola do not have the spark? I was always under the impression that they did, and that you needed to have the spark to be a strong channeler.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-30 15:49:26
subject: <b>many comments</b>
body:
About the poster who brought up morgase and tallanvor.  Morgase IS only about 5 years older than Tallonvor (she specifically mentions that as why she should not call him &quot;young Tallanvor&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  He should be around 30, she would be 35.  Still means she was young when she had Gawyn (who is only about 19, Elayne 16 or 17 when the story starts I believe), but not impossibly young.  She has not slowed.  Also it should be noted, that she has channeled ONCE in her life.  She managed to embrace the source a few times but could only do anything once.<br /><br />I agree that the Royal Family of seanchan is probably never tested for Sul'dam.  Tuon mentions that she could not possible have been allowed to be one.  If they are not allowed to do it, then why test them, but they would be tested for damane.<br /><br />Damane and Aes Sedai can sense anyone who is born with the spark without trying (See Elayne and Egwene sensing kinship with Aviendha).  That is what the test for Damane is (when Mat is planning his escape from Ebou Dar, he sees sul'dam/damane weaving through the crowds looking for marath'damane, carrying a spare a'dam JUST IN CASE).  Of course in Seanchan it would be more ritualistic, but still that simple.<br /><br />To feel those who can learn to channel would require something like the men do.  Damane can't do it because they were not trained how (else they would find Sul'dam as well as damane).  It's probably similar to how they figure out potential for females.<br /><br />Tuon was not born with the spark, and has not slowed.  She says she could pass for 16.  That is only a 3 year difference and can quite easily be natural (especially for short, flat chested women **no offense to any out there).  Not to mention she has obviously had rigourous physical training (she was kicking Mat's rear before Noal showed up).  Healthy excercise regimen would also help to look younger.<br /><br />I have my doubts as to whether or not she is a strong channeler.  She is the link to the freedom of damane and training of sul'dam as channelers.  That is already a HUGE role.  I think she has enough ahead of her without her being a wonder-girl, but I do think she will end up being about an average Aes Sedai in strength (maybe SLIGHTLY above, like Sheriam or Romanda, not remarkable but strong).<br /><br />Overall the theory made some good points, specifically I never noticed that one quote implied that Tuon had not been tested before she requested it.  I guess its true you learn something new every day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 12:41:16
subject: <b>Morgase is way older than 35.</b>
body:
She was the Queen of Andor during the Aiel War, which lasted three years, and ended 21 years before LoC.  Therefore, Morgase, who was 16 when she returned from the Tower to press her claim for the Lion throne, would be 40 if she won the throne the day she claimed it.  It took her three years according to FoH (Elayne would surely have commented, in Winter's Heart, on her mother being one of those few queens who took the throne at 18 if she had been that young).  Queen Modrellin, Tigraine's mother, died of grief the same year Tigraine vanished &quot;four years before the hunt for Laman.&quot;  This means that Moiraine would already have been queen for a year when the Aiel war started, putting her age at 20.  Three years of war make her 23 when Rand is born, and he's 21 now.  Morgase is 43 or 44.  On the whole slowing thing, she slows very little because she's so weak, but she started slowing at 20, like everyone else.  She doesn't look young, only young for her age.  Pedron Niall, who is almost twice her age (and trust me that definitely skews your perspective), says she looks too young to have a daughter Elayne's age.  Since Elayne is pregnant at 18, and her youth has not been commented on, one assumes Morgase only looks about 10-15 years older than her daughter, even if she was 26 or so when she had her.<br />Lini commented that Tallanvor had a few years on Galad, who is at least seven years older than Rand (his mother spent seven years with the Aiel before having Rand).  Therefore, Galad is at least 28.  If Morgase didn't sleep with anyone until she married, at 19 or so (and FoH strongly implies Tarangail was her first time), when Galad was at least three, he would be too old to be her son.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 10:26:24
subject: <b>Tuon looks very young</b>
body:
IMO, Tuon looks so young in the same way people today have youthful appearances- Not because she has been channelling for years.  Think of your friends, or even yourself being carded at bars long after age 21.  <br /><br />I believe RJ made Tuon so physically unappealing to Mat to allow Mat to see life in a more adult manner.  We can slowly watch Mat become more fond of her.<br /><br />As for her stone-faced Judge look {&quot;all prisoners will be hanged at dawn&quot;}, we get the reason for this in &quot;What a Veil Can Hide&quot;.  Tuon`s POV says if she didn`t, people would take her for a child.  She is very touchy on this point, as Mat found out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 17:56:31
subject: <b>Tormenting Mat</b>
body:
i think Tuon just looks young so that RJ can give Mat a reason to dislike and/or offend her.  Also the Seachan might have longer or shorter years than the Mainland.  What does Morgase have to do with this.  Tuon DOES NOT have the spark.  Wouldn't all the sul'dam shes running around with notice that she could channel? Also she was tested for the spark, cos in WT she says that she requested to be tested for sul'dam as well.  Poor Mat.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine Forever<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> I read manga and watch anime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br />COWBOY BEBOP


created: 2003-07-10 18:04:20
subject: <b>Point by Point...</b>
body:
<b>From the Theory itself:</b><br /><br /><i>It does not work, proving that it takes a woman who can channel to wear the bracelet. Thus, undeniably, we can say that the a'dam works on women who can channel and can only be used by women who can channel. </i><br /><br />Bad phrasing.  The bracelet works on those who have the potential to channel, not those who can channel.<br /><br /><i>Since Tuon tested on reaching adulthood, and it was out of the ordinary, then she never took the test previously. If she never was tested for sul'dam previously, then she wasn't tested for damane previously, as the two tests occur one after the other. &lt;I&gt;<br /><br />As has been pointed out, just because they normally happen simultaneously doesn't mean they have to.  She could very well have been tested for damane without ever being tested for suldam.<br /><br />That's irrelevant though because if someone has the spark they can be sensed by other channelers BEFORE they manifest.  Tuon would have been found out by someone long before now.  If she was found out in Seanchan, someone would have reported it to her siblings hoping for a reward/promotion (given what we know of Seanchan society).  She's also been around several AS who would be able to sense her ability, even if being a suldam taught her to control it.<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;We'll have to RAFO to see exactly what she does with her ability, but from what we know of RJ and from the evidence listed above, I think we can be certain that Tuon can not only learn to channel but has the spark inborn and will someday be a force to be reckoned with. &lt;I&gt;<br /><br />She doesn't need the spark to be a strong channeler.  See Sharina Malloy who outclasses Graendel (already pointed out above).<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;The disparity between her age and appearance sounds like she started &quot;slowing&quot; early and slowing at a nearly unheard of rate, basedonthe descriptions trhoughout the series of the effects of slowing. The slowing ratio implies she's very strong, because the amount of slowing is related to the potential strength.</i><br /><br />Slowing starts slowly, and then increases.  If Nynaeve aged 4 years in 10 (not sure where those numbers came from) then she probably aged 1 year in 2, 2 years in 3, etc or something like that.  Tuon would still look older than she already does.  This sounds more like bad luck with the genetics.<br /><br />Plus you only slow when you have learned to channel and actually do channel, not just because you have the potential.<br /><br /><i>Tuon thinks of two of her siblings being struck from the book &quot;as if they had been discovered channeling&quot; -- NOT &quot;as if they were able to channel&quot; The wording suggests that many, if not all, of the Imperial family can channel and know how to mask the ability as Moggy and Messaana do.<br /><br />The exact quote about Tuon's siblings is, &quot;A sister and a brother had been made da'covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel.&quot; (emphasis mine)</i><br /><br />Both of those by Weird Harold.  You changed the quote, and the change makes a BIG difference with how you are interpreting it.  Notice the &quot;could&quot; in the second one.  That means ability to, not actually doing it.  The discovered is meaningless because they wouldn't be stricken from the record if no one discovered it...<br /><br /><i>Just because sul'dam haven't &quot;sensed&quot; her as being able to channel doesn't mean she doesn't have the spark. It just means she hasn't been tested for it. Sul'dam can't distinguish between women who have the spark inborn and those who can learn to channel, not when they have learned to actually channel. They can only sense the ability to channel. Otherwise they would have noticed the difference in the Aes Sedai they caught. (This would only be discounted if ALL of the Aes Sedai they caught had the spark born in them, highly unlikely, imo.)</i><br /><br />This is wrong.  You can sense the spark before it manifests (shortly before) but you cannot sense the ability to learn.  They sense the same after both types have touched the source.  Since all AS have touched the source, they sense the same.  That's why they test yearly for damane, to catch them as close to the spark time as possible.<br /><br /><i>Also, all sul'dam can channel, but no one has sensed the ability in them. The reason is that their ability is so small and limited that it can't be noticed. It is possible that this is the case with Tuon as well (but the above explanation of her being able to disguise her ability is appealing, also).&lt;I&gt;<br /><br />Because they have never touched the source themselves (only through damane) and they do not have the spark.  Sometimes either someone with the spark, or an exceptional learner, does touch the source and they are then collared as damane.<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;How then do you account for the obvious slowing Tuon shows. She's nearly twenty and looks barely pubescent.</i><br /><br />You seem fixated on this, and it's meaningless.  In the RL I've met 50 year olds who look 29 and 20 year olds that look 40.  I've also met many people in their 20s who look 14 or 15.  It can easily be genetic and not slowing, and since she is also short (and no evidence we've seen suggests slowing would slow down height growth, just lessen the aging effects visable on the skin) it is more likely to be genetics.<br /><br /><i>There is also Anath's comment about, &quot;'You must be very careful,' Anath purred. 'You must not let him know how dangerous you are to him until it is too late for him to escape.'&quot;<br />Most people assume this comment is connected to the &quot;Sad Bracelets,&quot; but at that point, they're in Suroth's possesion and there is no reason to believe that Tuon knows about them. It could just as easily apply to some channeling Talent that Tuon has and knows about. &lt;I&gt;<br /><br />There are too many interpretations to this quote.  It could also mean she is quick and a good fighter (which we've seen).  As you say she had the male adam (which we know).  Yes it could easily apply to channeling, but only if it is a coverup by the entire imperial family, imperial suldams, and damane.  That seems the least likely.<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;Tuon's physical development is too much out of the ordinary for other characters in the WoT for it NOT to be an indication of slowing from a very early age. Virtually every instance of young looking characters has been a foreshadowing of slowing. Tuon almsot has to be a continuation of that trend.&lt;I&gt;<br /><br />Not so.  Tuon is Mat's Anti-Dream girl.  He likes older woman, with lots of curves, milky skin, etc.  Yes she will be a channeler, but even if its a bare minimum RJ will make her look very young.  I think it is foreshadowing that she will channel, but it's not slowing yet.<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;Tuon is 19, nealry 20, but looks 14 -- coincidentally about the age most women with the spark start channeling. She may be an exeption and took up training damane to hide her ability the way Nyneave did when resuing Egwene in Falme; &quot;If any sensed her abilityto channel they would just assume it was Seta.&quot;&lt;I&gt;<br /><br />Right, most sparkers hit at 14 or 15.  Even as a sparker Tuon would have aged by now (say look 16 prolly).<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;There is another point to consider about why Tuon hasn't been exposed by damane: The Seanchan are very good at NOT seeing things. i.e. when Tuon is &quot;under the veil&quot; most Seanchan truly treat her as &quot;The High Lady Tuon&quot; and not as tDoNM. </i><br /><br />You really believe the Seanchan who feel that even 1 loose channeler is a danger to the world would not expose Tuon, especially when the suldam who brings it up gets a huge reward from Tuon's siblings?  That's a rather weak assumption.  We've seen what the people of RJ's world will do for even a promise of power.<br /><br /><i>As to why she hasn't been exposed by the three AS with the group, I can't remember any time that she's actually been face-to-face with any of them. They wouldn't necessarily say anything to anyone if they did notice, because it would be the same as chaining her in their eyes -- something they'd be adamantly opposed to.</i><br /><br />It wouldn't matter.  If Tuon is as strong as you want us to believe, even when not embracing the source she could be felt several (probably 10-20) feet away (again without the weak masking assumption).  The AS were easily within that range at the gate to Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Speaking of Ebou Dar, the entire group was checked out by a damane.  If Tuon was a sparker (and had manifested, which she would have had to by now) she would have been felt by that damane.  The damane would have felt a rug that could channel and told her suldam thinking that Mat &amp; crew were trying to sneak out a channeler.  That didn't happen so Tuon is not a sparker.<br /><br /><i>Second, I think that the Royal family can channel, some of the men as well as the women. That could be why the last Emperor failed, by going mad. It would explain the &quot;May she live forever&quot; because the Emperess can always channel and does live longer than most, by centuries sometimes. That would explain Tuon being able to channel, and also I agree that she has learned to hide it, because she the damane would find out if she didn't.</i><br /><br />If the Imperial Family knows they can channel, they would not let a man ascend to the throne, they would kill him first.  Even in Seanchan they have always known how bad an idea it is for men to channel.<br /><br /><i>Thirdly, an a'dam works on any woman that can channel. All sul'dam can channel, they just have a block; they need to do it through a damane. </i><br /><br />Remember the Empresses game.  She makes women try on the collar and men try on the bracelet with fun results (Men and damane exploding, etc).  No point, just felt like mentioning that.  BTW, as was pointed out, suldam can't channel but they know some weaves.<br /><br /><i> Doesn't it seem odd that Tuon is so young looking? Why would he put such a repeated description in his book? I believe that it is the result of the power. How? I do not know.</i><br /><br />She would not of slowed that much no matter what, even if she started slowing at 13 or so.<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;Where does it say Sharina and Nicola do not have the spark? I was always under the impression that they did, and that you needed to have the spark to be a strong channeler.&lt;I&gt;<br /><br />I think Nicola does have the spark, but Sharina definitely doesn't.  Sharina is a very old grandmother and could not possible have the spark.<br /><br /><br />Overall I don't think this theory, or comments by its supporters have really put forth any real arguments.  They continually harp on the same few statements which are extremely vague and can be interpreted many ways.  Also continually bringing up the age thing when it has been shown that that cannot be due to slowing.<br /><br />I'm going to stop typing now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-17 06:33:01
subject: <b>Isn't it 12-15?</b>
body:
Doesn't the spark manifest itself somewhere around 12-15 in girls and 1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />25 in boys?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Logain Reborn</font><br /><font color="lightgreen">Keeper of the happy Cheese <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="lightblue">Lord of the Teatime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="pink">Ruler of all fluffy tings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="gray">And thirtyone other titles<br />I don't deserve and have<br />never heard before.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-24 06:09:12
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
just because its not in-born does not mean she will be less powerful.  some people who were born with it are really weak in the power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">- loyal follower of banjo the clown, god of the puppets<br />- come and see the violence inherent in the system. help, help im being repressed.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 09:44:37
subject: <b>I'm not so sure.</b>
body:
I know this is getting picky, but... It never said she passed. I know it seems obvious as a slap on the face...but then, alot of things seemed obvious before. <br /><br />To me, the Empress allowing her daughter to train for sul'dam is pretty suspicious. My belief is that the Empress knows the secret - as all Empresses and Emperors had - and she wanted to see if Tuon was able to channel. Because as the Heir, she needed to be sure. And it would make sense. I find it hard to believe that Egwene, who hardly knew how to channel, had figured it out, but past Emperors and Empresses hadn't, or sul'dam and damane. So I think Tuon failed. <br /><br />Just think about it for a second. Never once did it actually say that she passed the test to be a sul'dam. Yes, she said that she enjoys training damane. But then if you look in What A Veil Hides, you'll see that &quot;training&quot; to her involves simply keeping an interest in her damane, regulating their diet and exercise. <br /><br />The biggest reason that I don't think she can channel is because that's too big a leap for the Seanchan in too short a time. I think that they are going to revolt when she says that women who can channel are no longer to be leashed. That alone is going to cause a revolution that is going to jeapordize her claim to the throne immensely. (Of course, the rebels will be defeated and the rest of the Seanchan will follow Tuon, but that's another theory...) But Tuon is going to be the Empress, and for three books time, or two, for the Seanchan to suddenly let channelers loose on the world, then to neutralize their disgust for the One Power, and then to follow a woman who can learn to channel? That's going too far, and cutting it up too short. I mean think about it. The point of the Seanchan is the Empire, and the peoples' respect for their Emperor/Empress is genuine. That thought astounded Padan Fain when he was trying to goad the High Lord Turak (I think). They won't suddenly revere a woman who can channel, when they've detested the One Power since before their culture was actually established. <br /><br />Next, look at Egwene. Look at all the trouble she's getting from the Aes Sedai just because she wanted to remove the Oaths, then allow them to retire into the Kin... People are growing hostile to her. Look how mad Romanda got when she suggested the retirement. Not only is Tuon altering a law that's been there since the Seanchan Empire was built, a law that made the Empire infamous, but she's suddenly going to be subject to that law? It's like announcing to the world that murder is alright, and then appointed a serial killer as the President on the same day.<br /><br />As for Tuon needing to sympathize for damane... Look at Egeanin. She befriended two Aes Sedai, and later said that she believed channelers should no longer be leashed, and she can't channel. So I think that Tuon, after spending all her time with Anan (who was probably burnt out), the escaped Aes Sedai, and Mat, she is then going to neutralize her beliefs on channeling.


created: 2005-04-19 12:08:20
subject: <b>I agree, and more</b>
body:
I was about halfway through the comments here when it started to dawn on me.<br /><br />Slowing<br />We have heard that Nyaneve has started to slow; this is why she looks younger than she is and is a source of frustration. For Nyaneve to have started slowing already shoe would have to have been channeling early, which she was. And she would have to be quite strong, which she is.<br /><br />The Crystal Throne<br />It has been said that the crystal throne is a ter&#8217;angreal. I believe it was in the GWB. And it was said that most holders of the crystal throne were women. It was mentioned that a man held the throne a long time ago, but I cant find the quote just now.<br /><br />May she live forever<br />It was stated once I believe by Fain in TGH that the blood well and truly mean it when they say may she live forever in relation to the empress.<br /><br />Coming together<br />Having said all of this, and in context with this theory, I will say this. All heirs to the Crystal throne can and are trained to channel. Who knows what effects the Crystal Throne have on people, we only know a profound sense of awe overcomes people put in front of it. But how is it operated? <br /><br />It can be said that Tuon has begun to slow, but only if you accept that she is extremely strong in the OP and that she has been trained, and Forced by tower standards. <br /><br />The way and use of the phrase &#8220;may she live forever&#8221; can be seen to suggest that for whatever reason the empress has some expectation to live forever, or at least forever in the eyes of people who don&#8217;t live nearly as long.<br /><br />And it is quite obvious that the Blood or at least some upper crust of the Seanchan nobility are exempt from testing for any relation to the Power. Yet no reference to heirs dying for no obvious reason is listed. As if every member of the royal family is exempt from being killed by the One Power. This requires a complete lack of spark in the bloodline or training.<br />


created: 2005-04-19 14:40:38
subject: <b>Tuon Has the Spark</b>
body:
&quot;She trained damane! Light, on top of everything else, he was marrying a woman who could channel?&quot;<br />                            -Mat CoT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-07 17:19:48
subject: <b>tuon doesnt have the spark...</b>
body:
or the ability to learn. from what i gather about Seanchan society the blood/high blood are held just as strictly, or moreso, to the laws as everyone else. is a cover-up due to her lineage possible...yes...is it probable?...not in my opinion. Yes, Tuon likes to train damane but not through the use of an A'dam. i'm pretty certain that CoT says (i'll find a quote later) that what was so unusual about Tuon's testing for sul'dam is that she did it again after failing.<br /><br />maybe RJ will pull a grolm out of his hat and reveala cover-up but until i read it i'm not gonna believe that Tuon can learn to channel<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder<br />We danced among the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-08 17:00:13
subject: <b>this seems really obvious</b>
body:
if she had the spark, damane and experienced sul'dam would feel it. even if she is of the emperial family, seanchan believe that all women with the spark HAVE to be leased. hence, marath'damane: one who must be leashed


created: 2006-02-24 14:14:22
subject: <b>Between the lines</b>
body:
I think Tuon could be taught to channel, but has NO inborn spark.<br /><br />Yes it was odd when she tested for Sul'dam on becoming an adult. But it says nowhere that she wasn't tested for damane every year. Given the Seanchan stance towards propierty no one would even DREAM of testing someone from the imperial family for Sul'dam. They can't channel, that's enough. <br /><br />So I think Tuon is like many other Sul'dam out there, she could be taught, but can't activly channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Why did I follow him? I don't know.<br />Why do things happen as they do in dreams?<br />All I know is: when he beckoned I had to follow.<br />From this moment on we journeyed east.<br />Always to the east.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-01 09:52:21
subject: <b>It may be true</b>
body:
If the all the imperial amily had the ability to channel it is also quite possible that they learn to mask their ability. It may even be true of thousands and thousands of seanchan, that it is not the ability to channel that is feared but careless users of the power. This would mean that any seanchan that mucked up or did not learn to mask the ability would be made damane. This would also fit in with the way tuon thinks of being discovered channleing or something like that rather than being able to channel.<br />However it may be that she does not have the spark born in her but has the ability to learn and be very powerful and when she started being a suldam and working with damane she started to use the power consciously and has learned to mask her ability. The one thing wrong with this is that in a conversation with matt she seems disgusted at channeling and says something along the lines of i may be able to channel but i choose not to and that makes the difference. This disgust may be fake or it may just prove that this theory is completely wrong.


created: 2007-04-12 11:53:18
subject: <b>Tuon can channel and has channeled already</b>
body:
After reading this post and a few others regaurding Tuon and her ability to channel.  I have a few bits of fuel to throw on the fire.  However, I cannot take credit for naything I am about to say.  A freind of mine pointed this out and I have not seen anything about it on any theory post.  In KoD A Hell in Maderin (Chapter 11).  After Mat and the rest get into the fight with the merchant and his gang.  Thom makes the comment &quot;I'm an old man, and sometimes I imagine I see things that can't be, but luckily, I always forget them&quot;.  Just before than Mat thinks it is odd that Tuon is the only one without a scratch on her.  Then Selucia asks he what it is that Thom might be trying to forget.  To which he says he can't recall.  Of course this chapter is from Mat's POV, so we don't know what Thom saw that he is trying to forget, but what could Thom had seen that he would try to forget?  Selucia being Tuon's bodygaurd?  I wouldn't think that a big enough secret for Thom to make a commment like that and for RJ to put that into the chapter.  As we know Thom is very skilled in the Game of Houses and is far from an idiot when it comes to ferreting out the truth.  I think Tuon channelled during the fight, that is why she was not touched and why Thom made such a comment.  I believe, as has been suggested above, that perhaps most if not all the imperial family can channel, and one of the first things they learn is to mask the ability, and then channel only when necessary.


created: 2007-05-10 00:36:33
subject: <b>Big difference</b>
body:
The point a lot of people are forgetting is that having to spark to be able to one day channel, and being able to learn how to channel are totally different things.  Even to Aes Sedai, the woman who starts channeling on her own is pretty much looked down up (wilder is never used in a good sense), while most Aes Sedai are channelers that would NEVER channel without being taught how.  So all the demane are pretty much looked at the same as wilders to a greater extent, while the Sul'dam are the women who- unless were actively trained to- would never learn to channel.  Therefore it shows that Tuon has the ability to learn, but may never learn how.  The very idea of her channeling in her own mind is utterly preposterous.  Maybe in AMOL, she has second thoughts about learning, who knows, only time and the Great Creator (RJ) knows the answer to that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The Creator has a hardon for Asha'man-because we kill everything we see.&quot;<br /><br />Asha'man Rod al'Trot<br />Asha'man implaced in Shen an Calhar  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Sticker of Uber-ness to the Dark One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />Dancer of the Peanut Butter and Jelly  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-10 00:49:30
subject: <b>Just something else for thought</b>
body:
This is a bit off the subject of Tuon having the spark, but one that points how its very easy to miss someone that can learn to channel, but not have the spark.<br /><br />It has to do with the Asha'man.  No one, including even Rand would have believed that in just about a year that there would be over 600 men learning to channel. The Reds sent to the Black Tower were estimating less than 10 or so.  That just shows that from the great many male channelers at the BT, that the ability can lie dormant for years or even a lifetime, take Flinn for example. Hes an old man who didnt even have a clue himself that he could channel.  Sharina is the same way, shes a GRANDMOTHER and just learned she could learn to touch the source.  The ones born with the spark will eventually learn to channel or die. Thats what happened with the Emond's Field wisdom apprentice before Nynaeve.  So that proves that if you were never tested before the age of 18 in Randland you lost to chance to ever learn until Egwene opened the novice books for any age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The Creator has a hardon for Asha'man-because we kill everything we see.&quot;<br /><br />Asha'man Rod al'Trot<br />Asha'man implaced in Shen an Calhar  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Sticker of Uber-ness to the Dark One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />Dancer of the Peanut Butter and Jelly  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-14 16:19:18
subject: <b>knife fight</b>
body:
anyone remember when thom and matt took tuon to the hell and when they left they got in that knife fight in the street or alley or whatever?<br />well while the focus in the book was on matt, after the fight matt was thinking about how hurt he was when thom and tuon wasn't and thom said something like i couldn't have possibly seen what i think i saw sort of thing? and then tuon's  voice or whatever she is (don't have the books here, just recalling from memory) said that it would be better if thom forgot what he saw....<br />anyone have any ideas what it was he is suposed to forget?


created: 2007-05-16 11:33:29
subject: <b>See above comment</b>
body:
Thanos,  If you scroll up a few posts you will see that I brought this up a little while ago.  I agree with you that Thom is to forget seeing tuon channel.  I am sure some of you are saying if Tuon channeled during the fight Matt's fox head medallion would have gone cold.  Perhaps it did, or it did not.  I don't have the book in front of me now, but it really doesn't matter.  Several things could be the reason for it.  One, Matt was so into the fight to save his skin and tuon's that he did not notice.  Two, it has never been RJ's way to just come out and say something straight away.  It is always burried in half truth and innuendo, very Aes Sedai of him if you ask me.  Third, as I said before, what else could Thom had seen that would provoke him to say what he did and for selucia to react as she did?  Maybe I am all wet on this but I think it adds up.


created: 2007-05-22 05:00:34
subject: <b>Spark? no</b>
body:
Tuon doesn't have the spark but she has the potential to learn.  To those who dont think she can channel, see KoD.  She leashes the 3 Aes Sedai and controls them. You have to be able to channel to do that.  The Aes Sedai would have said something about her being able to channel if she had the spark- she would have started channeling


created: 2007-06-24 00:41:01
subject: <b>Just a bit of food for thought ...</b>
body:
Point in favor of Tuon slowing: The Sea Folk apprentice Talaan. [Thinking Talaan is 14 or so] Nynaeve says she has to be 15 or 16 to go to the Tower, but Talaan is actually 19. Sounds a lot like Tuon to me.


created: 2008-08-04 21:03:11
subject: <b>Regarding the KoD knife fight in Maderin</b>
body:
What Thom was referring to was seeing Selucia act as Tuon's shadow:<br /><br /><i>A shadow's duties were many, and sometimes required paying the final sacrifice. </i><br />-Tuon's PoV KoD Ch. 26 As If the World Were Fog<br /><br />If Tuon really did have the Spark, any Aes Sedai or damane would have sensed it already. She does, however, have the potential to learn to channel, as evidenced by her use of the a'dam on the three Aes Sedai(KoD Ch. 9 A Short Path). <br /><br /><i>&quot;Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder.</i><br />-Tuon, in regards to learning to channel, KoD Ch. 9<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Don't mess with me, fool. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> I do believe I'm in a neverending state of confusion. Oh well!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-07-18 03:29:47
subject: <b>KoD spoiler</b>
body:
In KoD Tuon controls two AS at the same time with two A'dam, one in each hand. She also expresses surprise that the &quot;flows melt&quot; when she gets Joline / Teslyn to channel at Mat. <br />While she denies that she would channel any more than she would commit murder, this is the first time we learn that a Sul'dam can control two damane at the same time. <br /><br />She's obviously an experienced Suldam and she's reached the point where she can see flows. So she would fail the next times she's tested and be leashed, assuming that the &quot;tested till 25&quot; rule applies to the Empress


created: 2003-02-18 18:20:40
subject: <b>Nice one!</b>
body:
Great job!  This is the most well thought out and best written theory on this subject that I've seen.  I also agree, for now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />There is another episode that might have some bearing on this theory:  When Perrin, Lan, Moiraine and Faile are attacked by a pack of ten Darkhounds outside of Illian in TDR.  After the attack Moiraine says, &quot;(Sammael) would not loose two packs at once, even if he has two; they would turn on each other instead of their prey.&quot;  So our gigantic pack in CoT would likely need a VERY strong hand to control them.  This suggests to me that Moridin, Shadar Haran or the Dark One himself is holding the leash.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 19:58:29
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
Firstly, no matter how much Graendal was watching Sammael, I don't think she would have been paying much attention to Herid Fel, and even if she did notice his murder, which there is no evidence to support, why would she care? Some senile old man got ripped apart, so what?<br />I also find it excedingly unlikely that Graendal would have 50 darkhounds at her disposal to begin with. So that leaves IMHO either Moridin or Shaidar Haran. Neither of these guys have any real need to fear the gholam, unless it goes against their plans. Given that it is currently trying to kill Mat, I think they would be quite happy with its course of action. Remember that if Mat dies, the Horn of Valere is back on the table, and it can be used by the shadow as easily as the light.<br />You speak of the gholam going off and doing it's own thing, but Sammael's been dead for some time now, yet the gholam is still trying to accomplish the tasks he set, so I don't think it very likely that the gholam will suddenly just say, &quot;I've had enough of this, why don't I kill Graendal/Moridin/etc instead?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 21:15:56
subject: <b>Re: Hmmmm</b>
body:
<br /> I think there is plenty of evidence to support the fact that Graendal would know about Fel. Cairhien is notorious for spies. And the Forsaken seem to know pretty much everything that happens, when it happens. Graendal knew about Sammy's emissary to Rand the same day or the day after, Demmy knew about Rahvin dying, and Lanfear and Asmo missing on the same day,and Moggy knew about the raid Rand planned against Rahvin, which was only planned the night before. On top of that, Rand had not made it a secret of going to his school. Plenty of people knew, including Idrian Tarsin, the Headmistress, who knew within the hour that Rand had arrived back in Cairhien. She also knew Rand closeted himself in with Fel. I don't believe it was a secret Fel was a philosopher either.<br /><br /> And who can say how many Darkhounds are available? Slayer has been busy killing wolves for awhile. Remember that Elyas tells us how DHs are made from the captured souls of wolves? And, with less Forsaken now than earlier, plus over 1,000 years to build up their kennels, there are probably more DHs per Forsaken than you might think.<br /><br /> The question is, does the DO and Moridin want any of the three ta'veren dead? We have not seen any evidence to support this. All of the attacks against them were probably attempted by various Forsaken while still vying for Nae'blis, earlier in the story. The trollocs in the MOM; Graendal was the closest. Dragkar and trollocs in the waste were sent by Sammy, trying to taunt Rand into a trap. Aiel sent to get Mat on his way to Illian, by Sammy again, knowing that the invasion begins when Mat arrives. That is about it. Pretty pathetic. Don't you think any of them could have been taken out at any time? And as far as the Horn goes, it's a non-issue IMHO. Lanfear or Ishy could have taken it at any time in TGH if they had wanted to. It just doesn't seem that important to them, in my eyes.<br /><br /> As for the Gholam, we haven't seen him since,...well, two days before Sammy died.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 21:44:58
subject: <b>Killing a gholam</b>
body:
I remain unconvinced that darkhounds could kill a gholam. That doesn't mean they can't, but I haven't seen any evidence to support the idea.<br /><br />Darkhounds seem to have two weapons - physical strength (they're wolves, with teeth, etc.) and their saliva (poison). We haven't heard of any way to kill a gholam, and the only thing that's hurt the one we've seen has nothing to do with either physical strength or poison.


created: 2003-02-19 01:48:54
subject: <b>Why would grenny wanna do away with Fel?</b>
body:
What would her motivation be for wanting to get rid of the Gholam?<br /><br />It seems a lot of trouble to go to for just one gholam... after all, she can always run. (Elayne and co. had been caught unawares because they didn't know what they were up against, but it is feasible that all the Forsaken know what each and every gholam looked like).<br /><br />Also, 50 darkhounds? That's overkill... strength in numbers is subject to the law of diminishing returns... so 50 Dhs to one gholam is a bit odd.<br /><br />Also, Noal? Why is he under Grenny's cntrol? I know Ishy thought he'd been very clever controlling Farstrider, but what does Gren have to do with it?<br /><br />Also, Gren wouldn't be able to control that many - maybe Sh would...<br /><br />Whatever SH is looking for, those Dhs will find it.. and I think there's a chance it might be Rand... but I'm not sure.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 06:00:49
subject: <b>A question...</b>
body:
I compliment you for the Theory LiTn and after you answer this question I will wirte a much more detailed analysis here. Aren't you thr lucky one? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, why would the Darkhounds circle Perrin's camp and then leave? Do they have the power to sense where the Gholam is? I'm pretty sure that none of the Forsaken have this ability - as you mentioned, a few of them have had near death experiences with the Ghloam, and Moridin did not appear to notice the Gholam watching him watching. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If they could not sense him/it, which seems pretty likely, why would they leave? The Gholam looks like any other man (Mat) and without sensing him they would not know that he was <u>not</u> in the camp. Why would they leave?<br /><br />Ahh well, there's probably a simple answer to this question, like they <i>could</i> sense him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> but an answer would be welcome. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Cheers for now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 07:40:17
subject: <b>One problem</b>
body:
Maybe I missed it but you don't say HOW the Darkhound came to Perrin's camp, an important point! <br />I think it's impossible that the Darkhounds run the long way from the Blight (where they live) to the middle of the Westlands (Altara or Murandy? I'm not sure where Perrin is exactly..). That indicates that a Forsaken was involved, made a gateway, and the Darkhound came through it.<br /><br />In WH, ch.13, we learn that Moridin is concerned about Fain, even if he is unimportant at the moment because &quot;small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important.(...)A butterfly  stirs  its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses&quot; (BTW, maybe a foreshadowing about a collapsing SG or Dragonmount?). <br /><br />I think you misinterpret this important scene in your theory. <br />Moridin wants that Isam find and kill Fain now, before Fain becomes too important and maybe destroy Moridin's plans. After Isam had no success in the past with Fain, I suppose Mordin wants to help Isam to remove this threat forever, then Moridin can concentrate on more important things in the future; Fain gets on Mordin's nerves! <br />So Mordin sends Isam and his big Darkhound pack through a gateway to hunt Fain.           <br /><br />But no one knows where Fain's location is. The only thing Isam knows is that the last time he hunted him, Fain was with the Whitecloaks at the Two Rivers. <br />So Isam's hunt starts at the Whitecloak camp, very near to Perrin's logation. Fain could still be working with the WC, and then he is most likely at this big camp with the rest of the WC army; Isam has no other hints of Fain's location.  <br /><br />Therefore I think that the stench Carrdin smeels in COT, prologue, was the gateway from the Blight for Isam and his pack, the beginning of their hunt.<br /><br />In fact, that would be a connection between the WC scene in the prologue and the Perrin's plot in CoT, and could explain why RJ write it in the prologue! <br /><br />Of course your theory is very original but I believe it's more likely that Fain is the victim.


created: 2003-02-19 07:52:32
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
after I read your theory again carefully I understand how the Darkhound come to this place in your opinion. <br />Sorry, just wanted to post quickly my thoughts without reading everything exactly; that was silly!  <br /><br />Though I still think my theory is right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-19 09:44:13
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Maybe I missed it but you don't say HOW the Darkhound came to Perrin's camp, an important point! <br />I think it's impossible that the Darkhounds run the long way from the Blight (where they live) to the middle of the Westlands (Altara or Murandy? I'm not sure where Perrin is exactly..). That indicates that a Forsaken was involved, made a gateway, and the Darkhound came through it.</b></font><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In WH, ch.13, we learn that Moridin is concerned about Fain, even if he is unimportant at the moment because &quot;small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important.(...)A butterfly stirs its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses&quot; (BTW, maybe a foreshadowing about a collapsing SG or Dragonmount?).</b></font><br /><br />That very well could be a foreshadowing. However, Dragonmount is a volcano, so the word mountain *shouldn't* apply, but who knows...<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I think you misinterpret this important scene in your theory. <br />Moridin wants that Isam find and kill Fain now, before Fain becomes too important and maybe destroy Moridin's plans. After Isam had no success in the past with Fain, I suppose Mordin wants to help Isam to remove this threat forever, then Moridin can concentrate on more important things in the future; Fain gets on Mordin's nerves! <br />So Mordin sends Isam and his big Darkhound pack through a gateway to hunt Fain.</b></font><br /><br />No way. Fain doesn't warrant <i>50</i> darkhounds. He's a pseudo bad guy and somewhat on Moridin's team. If he were that concerned about eliminating Fain, he'd hunt him down himself.<br /><br />It always bothers me how RJ continually remarks on Fain's powers and how he's become something totally different from what he was through the distilling and subsequent merge with Mordeth. We haven't seen anything truly remarkable from him. What have we seen? He tortured a Myrdraal, horded a bunch of smelly Whitecloaks, moved around some Trollocs in TGH and slashed Rand once with that damn knife. None of this is *amazing*, although it's pretty cool. I'm pretty sure we've yet to see Fain's true potency.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>But no one knows where Fain's location is. The only thing Isam knows is that the last time he hunted him, Fain was with the Whitecloaks at the Two Rivers. <br />So Isam's hunt starts at the Whitecloak camp, very near to Perrin's logation. Fain could still be working with the WC, and then he is most likely at this big camp with the rest of the WC army; Isam has no other hints of Fain's location.</b></font><br /><br />Maybe, maybe not. Isam seems pretty well informed, seeing as he's the shadow's top assassin. We've seen him spying on Elayne and the girls in TAR, he knew to find Rand in not-so Far Madding (even though Rand only left very subtle hints for the four deserters to find him), and he knew to find Fain in TR in the first place.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Therefore I think that the stench Carrdin smeels in COT, prologue, was the gateway from the Blight for Isam and his pack, the beginning of their hunt.</b></font><br /><br />Well, Carridin is dead by this time (at the hands of Shaiel in WH), but I know you were referring to Valda. Minor correction. That's an interesting suggestion and one I haven't heard yet...or have I?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In fact, that would be a connection between the WC scene in the prologue and the Perrin's plot in CoT, and could explain why RJ write it in the prologue!</b></font><br /><br />Yeah, possibly. Good pickups here. Although I'm not sold on either idea, there are only so many characters who require 50 (50!!) darkhounds to reel them in.<br /><br />What is that list of characters?<br />Mat: if, as you say, Moridin sent the hounds, why wouldn't he have taken care of Mat in the palace? We know he was there, since he watched the girls gate to the Farm. Mat would be hard pressed to best Moridin in a fight (I'm assuming he's adept at fighting) and we have no clue as to whether his medallion would stop the TP. Personally, I doubt it, since this ter'angreal was obviously made in the AOL, before or shortly after (probably before) Lanfear discovered it.<br /><br />Perrin: Perrin dismisses himself as the target of the hounds.<br /><br />Rand: Well, they seem to be quite a ways off, unless they meant to catch him in SL.<br /><br />Gholam: LitN's arguments.<br /><br />Fain: your arguments.<br /><br />That's it for me. Thoughts anyone?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 10:12:59
subject: <b>My god!</b>
body:
Of course Valda not Carridin! Thanks, P Floyd (a pity that we can't edit here, or can we?)<br />I'm writing a long and difficult university essay (law..) at the moment, have not so much time and so I wasn't very concentrated when I quickly read LiTN's theory and write my respond. <br />I just wanted to present my thoughts cause I had the idea to write a theory about this subject with Fain, the stench and the pack, but Light in the Night was too quick with his theory... <br /><br />Sorry again! <br />


created: 2003-02-19 11:28:55
subject: <b>Who then?</b>
body:
I haven't looked into this in detail, but it seems to me that we have seen nothing that would warrant 50 DH's by itself.  Not even Rand.  So, perhaps the target is someone or something that, even if the DH's didn't know the location of the target, it was someone or something that whoever sent the DH's expected to be with a very large army or group of channelers.  Fain by himself against 50 DH's, no contest.  Rand, Perrin, Mat by themselves or with small groups, no way.  A single gholum, with what we know, doubt it.  This pack is meant to take out a large number of people.


created: 2003-02-19 12:23:53
subject: <b>this is possible</b>
body:
indeed, this is a truly original idea that no one has yet though of.  that gets prop points.<br /><br />However, I still wonder if a darkhound could do any harm to the gholam.  How could gholam get infected with a wolf bite, when he doesn't seem to have blood in the first place?<br /><br />I cannot subscibe, yet, to this theory simply because of the x-factor, in that we don't know that darkhounds could kill a gholam.  <br /><br />It seems to me that if Ishy knew about the gholam, he would do his best to put it under his command.<br /><br />I believe it quite possible that there are 2 gholams running around right now (from events in TGH and Fel's death).  If so, Ishy would be the prime suspect as the commander of this gholam.<br /><br />For this reason, i believe it quite possible that Ishy already has the necessary knowledge to control a gholam.  Is so, why would he need to go to the trouble of sending a whole pack of darkhounds, when he could do the work himself?<br /><br />Also recall that Perrin is still quite a ways from Mat.  the distance is still quite long.  If a pack of darkhounds was sent, why was it sent closer to Perrin than to Mat, when the Forsaken such as Ishy already knew that Mat was in Ebou Dar?<br /><br />My personal feeling, at this point, about the darkhounds is that we don't yet have enough information to figure out what they are up to.<br /><br />In a way, this sums up CoT to me: not enough information.  <br /><br />Otherwise an original theory, and perhaps you can provide some evidence to refute me. <br /><br />However, I will propose one more theory while I am here.<br /><br />Perhaps the forsaken were fooled by Mat's diversion by waiting in Ebou Dar instead of setting out immediately.  This means that they think that Mat is much farther away from Ebou Dar than he really is.  This could explain the darkhounds being near Mat.<br /><br />My theory is that the darkhounds were sent out to take out Tuon.  Losing Tuon to Rand's side would be a major blow to the Forsaken.  Indeed, this would ruin Ishy's centuries of scheming with the Seanchan.  Rather than risk everything, Ishy has sent a major force (the darkhounds), to track and execute Tuon.  This is not a major blow to the Forsaken, because they can replace her with an imposter, just like we learned at the end of CoT.<br /><br />The reason so many darkhounds were sent, I think, is because of the importance of the matter.  Tuon is gigantic in this whole struggle.  Why else would the dice have rung out in his head over such little things as his agreements with her?<br /><br />The DO realizes the potential impact of her leaving, and the fact that she may actually side with Cauthon, especially due to his ta'veren powers.  So now, the DO is bent on eliminating Tuon so that she will be no further threat to his plans.  <br /><br />I believe this is the most likely explanation for the Darkhounds.  That said, I go back to my lurking.<br /><br />Have a nice day!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 13:22:17
subject: <b>Where to begin?</b>
body:
Thanks to everyone for responding.<br /><br /> To Danae: You may not remember or simply disagree, but Noal was thought to be seen in Graendal's palace in Arad Domain. As to whether or not 50 DHs is overkill, that's a subject for some debate. The Gholam doesn't bleed, as witnessed by Mat stabbing it, it can squeeze through cracks in a wall or under a door, so it has the ability to sneak up on anyone or get into any place, and it sensed channeling several miles away. <br /><br /> SEVERAL MILES!<br /><br /> That ought to scare ANY channeler s**tless!<br /><br />As for Grenny being able to &quot;control&quot; 50 DHs, from what we have seen, no-one holds their leash, they are simply put on a trail to hunt.<br /><br />To Dodge:<br /> I think there is a simple answer too. Their keen sense of smell. We have seen Perrin's acute sense of smell sniff out Grey-men, which even Mo and Lan didn't sense at the inn, Easing the Badger. He smelled the cold scent of Slayer as well. I will assume that even a Gholam has a scent. And since these are DHs we are talking about, something that has been manipulated in some way, I will also assume they have better-than-average senses as well. Just as Perrin, I got the feeling they sensed his being a ta'veren. Who knows what special abilities they might have. <br /> Notice too, that the DHs circled the camp. This makes me further believe they were not looking for someone in the camp itself, but rather someone, or thing, that would have been following, stalking the camp, looking for a chance to get in and make its kill.<br /><br />To Etzel:<br /> Believe it or not, I did not underestimate Moridin, or the fact he wants Fain dead. Originally I had it in this theory why I thought the DHs were not after Fain, but left it out in my final draft. Here are my reasons:<br /> 1) He already has Slayer, the DO's #1 assasin, looking for Fain. <br /> 2) In tEotW, we learn that Ishy came to Fain in his dreams. We later learn through Egwene, via her teaching from the WO dreamwalkers, that once you have found someone's dreams, you can easily find them again. So, if Moridin was that fearful of Fain ruining his plans, he could easily kill him in his dreams, which we have seen him do to others, as Ishy.<br /> 3) I myself think Moridin is underestimating Fain. I don't believe there is any evidence that shows he knows about Fain's abilities. Does he know he merged with Mordeth? Does he know he came in contact with Machin Shin? In the beginning, Ishy considers him a renegade. Now, Moridin only calls him &quot;vermin&quot;. Hardly the words I would use to describe Fain. <br /><br /> I don't believe I misinterpreted Moridin's statement at all. Small problems can become large problems. Right now, he considers Fain a small problem. IMO, Moridin only fears that Fain will get to Rand and disrupt his plans for him. <br /><br /> You are making a huge leap assuming that Slayer is with the DHs. Slayers ability lies in him stepping in and out of T'A'R at will. He does not make a gateway to do so. Reread his section in WH if you don't believe me. He would need someone to make a gateway for him to use DHs. <br /><br /> And these DHs have been searching for some time according to Masuri. This means they are making a broad sweep looking for their prey. Jumping around with gateways would run the risk of them missing picking up the trail.<br /><br /> As for the stench and the probable gateway to the Blight, many have long suspected Demandred was using the WCs as his proxies. Look at Asunawa, he is a likely candidate for being under compulsion.<br /><br /> The prologues have a tendency to not relate to the actual book they appear in.<br /><br /> Thanks for the compliment, and the feedback. I knew when I wrote it, it would be controversial, especially considering the overwhelming approval the Fain/Darkhound theory garnered. That's why I wrote it. I just felt there was another, more dangerous possibility out there that people had not taken into consideration. And the fact that the DHs are so far away from Fain's last known location. Besides, I like the idea of the DO's forces fighting each other. I would love to see the fight between the Gholam and Darkhounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 13:24:53
subject: <b>Was going to post this as my own theory but...</b>
body:
it ties in here very well.  It's pretty out there so hang on.<br /><br />Perrin the Dark Huntsman or Ol' Grim<br /><br />I have seen many posts questioning who will be turned to shadow.  This theory is my theory on Perrin.<br /><br />First I have to say that RJ does not put in a lot of things that do not get used.  We have known for several books that a circle of 13 Mydraal can turn a person to the shadow against their will.  I don&#8217;t believe that we were told this for no reason.<br /><br />Second, as most people can figure out Rand is a Christ figure in these books.  He even has the Stigmata like marks to prove it.  With that in mind there needs to be a Judas.<br /><br />Perrin or Mat will be Judas. Now we have already seen Perrin maim a man to find out information on Faile.  And if you compare him to Mat he has always been to darker and moodier of the two. So it will be Perrin.<br />And this is how I think it will happen.  <br /><br />Faile will either not survive her capture with the Shaido.  Perrin will then go on a rampage killing the Shaido and possibly Masema.  I even think he may, in his rage, kill someone close to him or Rand.  Rand will be enraged and REALLY will cast Perrin out.   Perrin will not return to the Two River due to the fact that he feels that he has lost face with his people there.  I think he will head to the Blight on a suicide mission. All of this will of course help the DO.<br /><br />Now in COT Perrin&#8217;s POV starts with him speaking of the Darkhunt or a Pack of Darkhounds.   We then find out that, in fact, that this is a very large pack and that no one knows their target.   I am not saying that Perrin is that Target but rather that the darkhounds are waiting for him.  Keep reading&#8230;<br /><br />With this in mind what do WE as readers know of  darkhounds.  We know that they were originally wolves turned into shadow spawn.  Now I would like to believe that the wolves that were turned to the shadow were not &#8220;Dark wolves&#8221; or the wolf equal to a dark friend.  This would mean that they were turned against their will.  The same will be done to Perrin.<br /><br />When Perrin is captured in the Blight the DO will offer for Perrin to have the one thing he wants more than anything: Faile back form the dead.  He IS the Lord of the Grave and we have already been shown that he can raise the dead.  Perrin, who by this time is crazy with grief, will accept.  Part of his acceptance will be that he will lead and &#8220;comfort&#8221; the Darkhunt, who I think he will also have pity for the lost souls of the wolves.  The DO will have Perrin turned by Fades even though he has accepted  the bargain. After Perrin is turned he will be able to speak to the dark hounds just like a wolf brother, he will in fact be a dark hound brother.<br /><br />On a quick aside:   in Celtic and European mythology there was a great hunt or a Dark Hunt.  This hunt was led by a Huntsman, in tEoTW Mat and Perrin mention old Grim and his wild hunt.  Also almost every segment with Darkhounds feature Perrin.<br /><br />So this sets up a great fight at the Last Battle.  Between Perrin and the Darkhounds and Elias and the Wolves. I cant wait to see it<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 13:44:11
subject: <b>@ Matrimony</b>
body:
I agree that Rand's desire to make a deal with the Seanchan and them following through on it would strike a major blow to the Dark. Rather than have the two largest military factions fighting and killing off each other, these two could turn their collective attentions to the obviously impending LB. I can see the Dark's desire to stop/impede this treaty.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I believe it quite possible that there are 2 gholams running around right now (from events in TGH and Fel's death). If so, Ishy would be the prime suspect as the commander of this gholam.</b></font><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>For this reason, i believe it quite possible that Ishy already has the necessary knowledge to control a gholam. Is so, why would he need to go to the trouble of sending a whole pack of darkhounds, when he could do the work himself?</b></font><br /><br />Well, if he is commanding it, he doesn't seem able to sense it very well, since we saw the gholam clean up Moridin's mess on the balcony in the palace courtyard, while Moridin remained obvlivious to it (at least he never thought of it during his POV).<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Perhaps the forsaken were fooled by Mat's diversion by waiting in Ebou Dar instead of setting out immediately. This means that they think that Mat is much farther away from Ebou Dar than he really is. This could explain the darkhounds being near Mat.</b></font><br /><br />You mean this could explain why they are <i>not</i> near Mat, correct?<br /><br />But if Noal is Grandy's spy, as is the common consensus, she, at least, would know exactly where Mat is. Noal showed very suspicious behaviour in CoT, further confirming these suspicions. Otherwise, you must be thinking of his delay fooling other FS.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>My theory is that the darkhounds were sent out to take out Tuon. Losing Tuon to Rand's side would be a major blow to the Forsaken. Indeed, this would ruin Ishy's centuries of scheming with the Seanchan. Rather than risk everything, Ishy has sent a major force (the darkhounds), to track and execute Tuon. This is not a major blow to the Forsaken, because they can replace her with an imposter, just like we learned at the end of CoT.</b></font><br /><br />But Tuon was within his grasp for weeks! We (the readers) don't know exactly the length of Moridin's stay in Ebou Dar, but he was there when she was. Recall that he watched Avi and the rest depart for the Kin's Farm. He could have assassinated her with <i>little</i> difficulty.<br /><br />Unless he had a <i>major</i> change of plans since Mat and Tuon's departure (ie now he wishes her dead), this makes no sense on Ishy's part. Also, the timline doesn't fit. How soon could Ishy have known about the Rand/Tuon deal? Long enough to learn of it, gather the hounds, send them out on the path to Mat? I wouldn't think so. Maybe checking the WoT timeline would prove beneficial.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The reason so many darkhounds were sent, I think, is because of the importance of the matter. Tuon is gigantic in this whole struggle. Why else would the dice have rung out in his head over such little things as his agreements with her?</b></font><br /><br />I agree. She is vital to the success of the Light.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I believe this is the most likely explanation for the Darkhounds. That said, I go back to my lurking.</b></font><br /><br />Stay. You should comment more.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 14:01:37
subject: <b>To Angus...about your theory</b>
body:
Well it certainly is out there. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You should try posting it if you haven't.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Perrin or Mat will be Judas. Now we have already seen Perrin maim a man to find out information on Faile. And if you compare him to Mat he has always been to darker and moodier of the two. So it will be Perrin.<br />And this is how I think it will happen.</b></font><br /><br />I'm of the opinion that if either Mat or Perrin were to betray Rand, it would be Mat.<br /><br />The main piece of evidence for this comes from TGH, when Rand transports them using the Portal Stone. We were in Rand's POV and the effect of using the stone was that each person was witness to an endless number of possible lives they may have lived, each dependent upon past/future decisions they make.<br /><br />Immediately after the ordeal is done, Mat blurts out, &quot;Rand I would never betray you. You have to know that!&quot; (Not an exact quote.) Obviously, more than one of Mat's possible lives involved him betraying Rand somehow. I say &quot;more than one&quot; because after witnessing an endless number of possible lives, a common pattern would have to be established in order to be remembered (or maybe particularly horrific events, I'll admit). Remember Moiraine on her journey through the rings in Rhuidean. &quot;Only the major events are impressioned upon you. You only remember the common events.&quot; (Again, not exact.)<br /><br />Thus, I believe Mat is the more likely of the two to betray Rand. RAFO, of course, because those visions were only possibilities. However, they must have made some sort of lasting impression on Mat. Perhaps his lack of any sort of comment on it since then is RJ building the mystery. Who knows?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Faile will either not survive her capture with the Shaido. Perrin will then go on a rampage killing the Shaido and possibly Masema. I even think he may, in his rage, kill someone close to him or Rand. Rand will be enraged and REALLY will cast Perrin out. Perrin will not return to the Two River due to the fact that he feels that he has lost face with his people there. I think he will head to the Blight on a suicide mission. All of this will of course help the DO.</b></font><br /><br />Maybe. The TR guys already believe he slept with Berelain and he's done nothing to dispel those opinions.<br /><br />Perrin and the Hounds would definitely make for an interesting sub-battle to the all encompassing Tarmon Gaidin. I'd watch it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 14:40:07
subject: <b>read</b>
body:
Everyone knows that Aes Sedai don;t know everything.  What if the pack size gradually increased.  We all know how the Darkhounds are made.  It is possible that it was orginally a small pack sent out to kill Mat.  The pack size could have increased over time.  More to the point I don't think Morridin/Shadar Haran would kill the Golam.  We all know that the Gholam wouldn't stand a chance against one of the Forsaken weilding the True Power.  Morridin would only use it to help keep his chosen in check.  I think Morridin isn't aware that there are any Gholam still alive.


created: 2003-02-19 15:01:36
subject: <b>Don't buy it (X2)</b>
body:
Re: Perrin.<br /><br />CHANNELLERS can be turned to the dark by thirteen Black Ajah filtering throught thirteen Myrdraal. It's solely a weakness due to a channeling of the One Power. Unless you postulate that Perrin too can channel, then Mydraal do not come into. This does not, of course, mitigate against a conscious choice to turn to the Dark.<br /><br />About your Gholam theory, Light in the Night:<br /><br />I disagree on a number of points. Off the top of my head<br /><br />1) That a Gholam could be defeated by any combination of a force of Darkhounds. A Gholam certainly can't be poisoned, it isn't composed of organic matter. Perhaps it could be torn apart, but I don't see it.<br /><br />2) The pack of darkhounds has been trailing its prey for some time, and been eluded. This is at odds with the Gholam, as it hasn't moved from its locale in months.<br /><br />3)The trail around the camp. This could be intrepeted in a number of plausible ways. Off the top of my head, Perrins camp coincided with the direct route the darkhounds have to their prey. So they skirted it, not wanting to have to fight a tav'eren unecessarily when their prey was still at large.<br /><br />4) So Graendel had a bad experience with a Gholam. So what?? It is not a convincing reason for wasting such a large pack of Darkhounds, even were she able to control and amass such a pack. <br /><br />And I don't buy that, because Slayer has been killing wolves in the wolf dream, they are becoming Darkhounds. If a wolf is killed by darkhounds, and its soul consumed, then it can become a darkhound. If they die in the wolf dream they just die, unless you further suggest Slayer has a pack of DH's wandering about his ankles (and somehow hidden from Perrin's senses).<br /><br />Bit of a rant. Oops.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 16:27:00
subject: <b>I think most of what I'll say has already been said</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>I suppose you could call it impatience. That isn't really strong enough, by far-as soon call a stabwound a pinprick-but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.</b></font><br /><br />I don't see how you explain this away, even assuming that the gholum in Ebou Dar is the same one that killed Fel it seems that the DH should have been able to track it between the two cities and the gholum has been in Ebou Dar for quite some time now, I don't see why they would only just now be getting the scent, or however they track their prey.  <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>She figured out Sammael controlled a Gholam, and, fearing he might send it after her eventually, she sent the Darkhounds to kill it, rather than face it herself. </b></font><br /><br />Why would she think that Sammael might send the gholum after her?  As far as he knew she was completely loyal to him, doing whatever he asked, it seems she would have little reason to be worried that he would turn on her.  Also, as others have mentioned it seems unlikely that Graendal would have control of this extremely large pack of DH.  There's also the question of why she seems to have waited until after Sammael is dead to send the pack after the gholum, at least they've taken over a month to travel that far, which seems really long for animals that can outrun any horse.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Noal, who is suspected to be one of Graendal's spies, and at the very least, is known to have been a dupe for Ishamael, has seen it attack Mat. </b></font><br /><br />One small thing, you assume that Noal is Jain Farstrider, not a big thing but I think you should have mentioned it since there's no definative proof that Noal is Jain.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Since that didn't happen, I assume he will still want Rand to live and help break the Dark One free. <br /></b></font><br /><br />I think that it's likely that since Rand has been so successful against the Shadow that they might think killing him now would be much prefered to waiting to see if he wins TG, especially since saidin is clean.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In conclusion, I believe Fifty Darkhounds hunting a Gholam is very plausible. With their poisonous blood and saliva, it is possible they could kill it. </b></font><br /><br />Assuming that a DH poison could kill a gholum I would think that fifty of them would be over kill.  Espcially when you consider how hard to kill they are, the only thing that has done it so far is balefire, it seems to me a pack of ten could do the job as easily and attract less notice.<br /><br />Personally, I agree with Burr that killing the gholum because it's a potential threat seems an unlikely thing for any of the Forsaken to do.  My main problem with most of the theories about who the pack is after is the fact that their prey keeps avoiding them, the only two possible targets I can think of is Loial, who's been Traveling from stedding to stedding or someone with Rand.  I doubt they're after Rand himself because killing 50 darkhounds would be no more difficult for him than killing ten was for Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 17:08:00
subject: <b>Fain</b>
body:
You're all missing the vital point. The packs prey is 'eluding them somehow' (Masuri, when she checks the prints.) It has to be Fain. He can travel the Ways without fear of the Black Wind - i assume - and he can open the Gates whereas a pack of 50 Darkhounds and Slayer? Flies to honey people. They wouldnt last 5min. And thats assuming Slayer knows how to use a Gate. And, i assume that Fain would have felt the Cleansing as well,from the SL point of view. It might even feel like hes been partly severed!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 17:31:20
subject: <b>The_Gholam</b>
body:
<br /> 1) That a Gholam could be defeated by any combination of a force of Darkhounds. A Gholam certainly can't be poisoned, it isn't composed of organic matter. Perhaps it could be torn apart, but I don't see it.<br /><br /> A Gholam drinks blood to survive. This indicates it needs sustenance. Thus it is organic. <br /><br />2) The pack of darkhounds has been trailing its prey for some time, and been eluded. This is at odds with the Gholam, as it hasn't moved from its locale in months.<br /><br /> According to my theory, Graendal (or possibly another Forsaken) sent them out a long time ago. Fel was killed in Cairhien, at the end of LoC, so this is where the Hunt would have originated. If the Gholam was gatewayed to Ebou Dar, there would be no trail to follow, thus the reason they have been searching for so long. <br /><br />  I, of course, am assuming there is no kind of bond that would tell whoever sent them, exactly where they are once they are set to hunt. We have not been told such a bond exists, and therefore no reason to believe there is. In fact, they did not know about anything like the warder bond used today, back in the AoL. Plus, we have been told several times throughout the series that things such as rats and ravens must report their findings to someone. Just because you work for the DO, does not give you some kind of magic link. <br /><br /> BTW: Time elapsed between the first sighting of the Gholam and Perrin finding the Darkhound trail is about 60 days.<br /><br />3)The trail around the camp. This could be intrepeted in a number of plausible ways. Off the top of my head, Perrins camp coincided with the direct route the darkhounds have to their prey. So they skirted it, not wanting to have to fight a tav'eren unecessarily when their prey was still at large.<br /><br /> They didn't skirt the camp, they circled it. Big difference in my eyes. It's a clear indication that what they were looking for, wasn't there in any case. And the Darkhounds were heading south, right? Who is in that direction?<br /><br />4) So Graendel had a bad experience with a Gholam. So what?? It is not a convincing reason for wasting such a large pack of Darkhounds, even were she able to control and amass such a pack. <br /><br /> &quot;Graendal smiled a good deal more warmly than she felt inside, though if her gown changed color, it was by a hair. She had had an unpleasant, in fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have created a Gholam.&quot; LoC, p.347.<br /><br /> Once you've been attacked by something, it is hard to get over your fear of it. Since it almost killed her, I believe she is scared spitless of the Gholam. Or at least scared enough to do something about it coming after her.<br /><br /> Why do you think she would have a hard time &quot;controlling&quot; a pack of DHs? I've seen several people say this and it baffles me. You make it sound like she is leading them on a leash and they might turn on her. She is a Forsaken, afterall. Used to leading the DO's forces in the AoL. <br /><br />And I don't buy that, because Slayer has been killing wolves in the wolf dream, they are becoming Darkhounds. If a wolf is killed by darkhounds, and its soul consumed, then it can become a darkhound. If they die in the wolf dream they just die, unless you further suggest Slayer has a pack of DH's wandering about his ankles (and somehow hidden from Perrin's senses).<br /><br /> Yeah, that was off the top of my head earlier. No basis in fact. I remember Hopper saying if they die in the Wolf Dream, it was the final death. It didn't come to me at the time.  I was thinking of this statement by Elyas in CoT: &quot;They were souls of wolves once, caught and twisted by the Shadow.&quot;<br /> Slayer was catching and killing wolves, that's where I was coming from.<br /><br />Bit of a rant. Oops.<br /><br /> We all do sometimes. <br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 19:40:59
subject: <b>Use your noggins!</b>
body:
Good theory and some good points made after, but you all seem to be missing what is to me a vital point!<br /><br /><br />The darkhounds are trailing something, not searching for a trail, but actually trailing it and have been for sometime now. They know what it is they are after and they have the victim's &quot;scent&quot;. Apart from the fact this is quoted by someone in the text (Masuri I think), there are 50 of them, if they hadn't found the scent yet then they would be spread out, scouting the area, not in one big group.<br /><br /><br />They are impatient because their target keeps on eluding them, though whether the target knows it is being hunted is very doubtful. This again suggests they already have the target's trail, and indeed get very close once in a while only for the target to gain ground all of a sudden. I think the impatience sensed in this instance hints that they were very close to their prey when they happened upon Perrin's group, which suggests to me that the target was with Perrin's group until recently.<br /><br /><br />Note the following quote from Masuri:<br />&quot;Their quarry is always important to the Shadow, though at times we cannot see why. They have been known to bypass the great and mighty to slay a farmwife or a craftsman, or to enter a town or village and leave without killing, though clearly they came for some reason.&quot;<br /><br />Something important to the shadow but not necessarily obvious. I think Rand, Mat and Perrin (and possibly Fain as well) are far too obvious to be targets.<br /><br /><br /><br />The way I see it is the darkhounds have been trailing someone for quite sometime now. This person was in Perrin's camp, or at the very least passed by this way. Which is why the hounds circled the camp, searching for what they knew had been there before, then once realising it was no longer there they moved on.<br /><br />Thus I think the target is someone who has been amongst Perrin's group recently and is not an obvious target for the Dark One.<br /><br />Any ideas who this could be? The only names that spring to mind are Faile and Morgase, but I'm not sure, I'd need to re-read before I decide.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 20:10:14
subject: <b>Who has 50 darkhounds to spare? Not me.</b>
body:
It does seem very odd that Gren was able to get 50 Darkhounds, when Moiraine thought it would be odd for Sammy to have two packs. And she said two packs could not be released at once, or they would fight each other (aka Trollocs) - if Sammy couldn't stop that, Gren wouldn't be able to. So who would? Moiridin or Shaddy (aka Myraddel with Trollocs). If any foresakan could control that many, why haven't they? Seems like quite a weapon.<br /><br />And RJ saying &quot;And yes, if a gholam decided to turn against one of the Forsaken...the Forsaken would certainly have as much difficulty in stopping the attack...as any other person would. They were, after all, created for the sole purpose...of assassinating Aes Sedai.&quot; If Gholam were likely to turn against the bad guys this easily, why not just say &quot;Yes&quot;? By qualifing this with, &quot;if a gholam decided to turn against one of the Forsaken&quot; I believe he is saying it is unlikely. They must have some way of controlling Gholam (the True Power?)


created: 2003-02-19 20:47:34
subject: <b>Mordin could defeat the gholam</b>
body:
First of all we know that mordin has been using the True Source rather exclusively for a while now. And gholam were invented to kill Aes sedai which im pretty sure dont or havent channel the True Source. So we really dont know that the gholam will have the same effect on one of Mordin's weavings as with regular Aes Sedai. SO i believe that Mordin would easily be able to control or destroy one of the gholam without having to waste 50 darkhounds. Also i think Shaidar Haran would also be in this same category since he has shown strenghts that even the chosen cant rival


created: 2003-02-20 03:31:35
subject: <b>Padan Fain</b>
body:
They are after Padan Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Eleanor Jagad  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The information contained in this message is confidential; disclosure, duplication and/or distribution of this message, without the Amyrlin's consent, is prohibited. This message is sealed to the Flame.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 05:49:11
subject: <b>The wild hunt for Matrim Cauthon</b>
body:
&#8220;He wants you dead as much as he wants her.&#8221; It had told him in the Rahad, smiling. It was not talking or smiling now. He did not know who the &#8220;her&#8221; was, or the &#8220;he&#8221; but the rest was clear as good glass.<br />(Chap 16: an unexpected encounter. Winter&#8217;s Heart)<br /><br />My idea is that &#8220;her&#8221; would be Tuon, the daughter of the nine moons. In new spring the dark friends show knowledge of their own regarding prophecy (the dragon, the lucky one and the blacksmith). Also in the Great Hunt there is dark prophecy in the dungeon, Fain escaped from. <br />So: kill Tuon and Mat to prevent prophecy from coming true.<br /><br />Lucky Mat (and Tuon) just escaped when the gholam finally gets his way into the palace. Frustrated about not finding Mat, it kills Tylin.<br /><br />Why did the gholam stay in Ebou Dar if his first task was to get his hands on the ter&#8217;angreal stash? A gholam is an assassin.<br /><br />Because the gholam is not up to killing Mat because of his amulet, he has to be killed by &#8220;him&#8221; in another way. <br /><br />Other shadowspan: The waygates are all closed thanks to Loial. Then &#8220;he&#8221; needs stealthy shadow creatures, which can make the trip from the blight to Ebou Dar without detection and without slowing down. 50 darkhounds can do it easily. But Mat left Ebou Dar. Well 50 darkhounds can split into smaller packs to hunt the surroundings of Ebou Dar. (And Tuon has left Ebou Dar too)<br /><br />That&#8217;s where the darkhounds are after! Mat Cauthon (and Tuon)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Eleanor Jagad  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The information contained in this message is confidential; disclosure, duplication and/or distribution of this message, without the Amyrlin's consent, is prohibited. This message is sealed to the Flame.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:00:08
subject: <b>The Dark One rides the Wild Hunt</b>
body:
I thought of another possibility while I was trying to fall asleep last night(does that sound completely lame or what?) What if the Darkhounds are searching for the Dark One?  After all, he originally thought he was going to break free after capturing the Eye of the World, almost two full years before CoT.  There are several references to the Pit of Doom not being any closer physically to the DO's prison than anywhere else in Randland.  It is likely that Dobraine's attacker, and the thieves in Bashere's camp were after the seals.  So maybe the Darkhounds are running around looking for some physical manifestation of their Great Lord to ride the Wild Hunt with them.  I do think that such a large pack would need some kind of restraining power to keep them from turning on each other, but maybe the fact that it's just one large pack, and not two or more packs makes it unnecessary.<br /><br />About the gholem, I always thought his references to &quot;her&quot; or &quot;the women&quot; have been suspiciously(intentionally?) indistinct.  Everyone assumes that he's referring to Elayne and Nynaeve, and I can't personally see a more appropriate target, but I continue to wonder about it.  Especially considering that, despite all the talk of following the super-girls there is no evidence that he actually does so.  I also noticed that he's back to a singular &quot;her&quot; in WH from a plural &quot;women&quot; in PoD, after Sammael is &quot;toast&quot;.  It seems either 1)the gholem doesn't know that Sammael is gone, he continues to follow his last set of orders and the singular/plural discrepancy is meaningless, or 2)someone else is commanding the gholem to kill Mat and some new and different woman.  I don't really think that woman is Tuon.  At this point in WH Tuon is still under the watchful eye of Anath(Semirage) and it seems that the Forsaken, for the time being, have at least put there conflicts with each other on hold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 13:24:15
subject: <b>it seems to me...</b>
body:
If the target is Tuon, which it might be because of her importance to Matt and his &quot;binding the nine moons&quot; and the importance of that to Rand... If she is the target, it seems logical to me to send 50 darkhounds because she would be guarded by damane, who would be able to stop the DHs.<br /><br />Whoever the target is, sending so many would ensure that at least one or two finally got past all the channelers the target is surrounded or guarded by to reach their target.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-23 22:27:26
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
I would like to thank everyone for their comments, pro or con. It's always enlightening to see everyone's views.<br /><br /> I've seen Tuon and Loial added to the possible list of targets, and was curious as to why. <br /><br /> The main downfall for the DHs to be after her, is she arrived in Ebou Dar, and was there for the whole time until she left with Mat. It would have made more sense for the Hunt to start there and be heading north, instead of south. Also, I saw it put forward that she would be surrounded by damane, thus the need for 50 DH. Tuon didn't escape with any of her damane. And, supposedly the Hunt has been going on for some time and the target eluding them. Tuon doesn't fit. She was stationary and really hasn't been here all that long.<br /><br /> Loial at least has been jumping around for awhile, getting the Elders to guard the Waygates. But, is this really a big threat to the Shadow's plans? We know the Shadow can't move large numbers of Shadowspawn through the Ways, because of Machin Shin. With the Forsaken and Dreadlords to make gateways, I fail to see the significance of Loial's actions being a serious impediment for the Last Battle, although it would be a setback or inconvenience. Most of the Steddings are far from human habitation afterall, and so far the Ogier have been standing aside, even if we are pretty sure that will change. At any rate, it would be just about impossible for DHs to ever catch someone who can use gateways, as Loial is doing with Karldin. So if he was the target, I don't think that DHs would be the right choice of weapons to use. <br /><br /> Fain of course seems a likely target given what we know about him. With him using the Ways, he would be hard to track down. One thing I had in my theory originally and left out is this: Ishy came to Fain in his dreams, we are told in tEotW, after Moiraine interrogated him. We later learn from Egwene, that once you have found someone's dreams, it is easy to find them again, as witnessed with her frequent contact with Elayne and Nynaeve. If Moridin is so concerned with Fain, why doesn't he kill him in his dreams, like we saw him do to the Darkfriends in TDR?<br /><br /> The big issue with Fain is, I am pretty sure he is going to be at the Last Battle. All it would take is for one DH to slobber or bleed on him, and that would be it. I really don't see Jordan getting rid of him that way, and the DHs are going to come into play somehow, and soon, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 22:30:17
subject: <b>I think Moridin is more likely to have sent the hounds</b>
body:
I can't imagine that it'd be easy for Graendal to send out a pack of 50 dark hounds after somethin. A normal pack of 12 perhaps, but 50? That's something I'd think would would require approval from on high. Whoever came up with the idea to send them out I think that Moridin or the DO ended being the final word on this decision.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-28 22:38:23
subject: <b>a compelling thought</b>
body:
Just a quick thought.  If one forsaken knows how o compell the gholam, doesn't it stand to reason they all might.  My guess is the gholams were created and controllled using OP, since the TS doesn't touch them.  And the OP is something the forsaken alone have access to, however limited.


created: 2003-03-05 22:11:12
subject: <b>Sammael last will and testament...</b>
body:
What if in the event of his death Sammael left orders with the gholem to go after the usual suspects (Forsaken) having come into the cash of artifacts and tools from the age of legends he probably wanted isurance that the others would not come after him. What better isurance than the one thing the others cant kill. In his untimely death the gholem went after everyone on his little list. On the other hand it may be that the death of Sammael may have broken the link the gholem had with his master in a way that allows it to think for itself. Being one of six ever created he must know who all the masters areand to isure his new found freedom he goes after the only ones he knows know how to make him a slave once more. Either of these possibilities seam plausible to me but I like the first. Mostly because its cool to see Forsaken kill each other.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 21:02:32
subject: <b>How nice we can still post...</b>
body:
After such a long time. <br />Dont know if they`re after Gholam, though.<br /><br />Angus MacFATTY--Perrin will not lead the DHs. Remember Egwene`s dream of Perrin leading a pack of wolves, as far as her eye could see?<br /><br />PFloyd--Tuon did not arrive until long after TBotW was used, therefore Moridin could not have killed her while he was there.<br /><br />EleanorJagad..I like your idea that they are after Mat &amp; Tuon, but then they would have had to start after Mat`s getaway from Ebou Dar.  Which means it could have been by the Gateway smelled by Valda, but don`t know the timing for his POV. In other words, it was only because Mat &amp; Tuon left that the need would arrive to find them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-22 18:42:52
subject: <b>Not gholam</b>
body:
There is no way Darkhound can kill gholam. First of all, he is not organic, despite the fact that he drinks blood (maybe he has some One Power nuclear reactor to fill <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ) Second, Darkhounds can kill by two forces - ripping apart and posion. Both of them could not be used here. If gholam may suffer anything from physical damage - we would see that in the fight with Mat, but Mat's knive can't damage him, not a bit. I doubt teeth could. Posion also can't be used because he is not organic.<br /><br />I doubt there are any Shadowspan that could kill gholam. Otherwise, if they so fragile to physical damage, they would create them more than six.


created: 2006-02-04 17:04:42
subject: <b>Darkhounds can sense Ta'veren</b>
body:
Mat's death would make a Rand/Seanchan alliance impossible.  Whoever sent the darkhounds knows this. <br /><br /> I believe that the darkhounds were sent after Mat, with the ability to sense a ta'veren.  While the were heading to Mat's last whereabouts they sensed a ta'veren(Perrin).  The darkhounds then circled the camp. They did not catch Mat's scent.  They, then, proceeded in their original direction(towards Mat).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Get Better RJ.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:01:20
subject: <b>I posted these thoughts a while back on the MB...</b>
body:
So therefore I say it's a good theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I don't personally think they have merged, I mean Moridin still wonders around the place even though he is supposed to be in Rand's head... plus, I sould have thought that LTT would be going slightly loopy with <i>him</i> around. More thoughts will follow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:06:28
subject: <b>Fence Sitter</b>
body:
<br /> I have been undecided on this issue mostly because I didn't want to believe that the Shadow could have this somewhat direct connection with Rand.<br /><br /> However, you did an excellent job of finding the right quotes and presenting your case. Those images you cited were great.<br /><br /> I may not be convinced it's true yet, only because of that voice in the back of MY head. <br /><br /> I voted thumbs up for the evidence you provided anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:20:50
subject: <b>I like the theory, but...</b>
body:
there doesn't seem to be much evidece that Moridin is suffering any side effects from the merger.  I have to think that he would show some sign of having his thread/soul/existence intertwined with Rand's.  Of course, while his elevator's running, it doesn't quite reach the top floor, if you know what I mean.  That scene in SL where the two streams of balefire cross with drastic consequences always reminded of something...makes me wonder if RJ's seen Ghostbusters on Comedy Central one too many times.  Anyway, definitely an interesting possibility with intriguing consequences, if true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:42:48
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Another subject where we're going to have to RAFO I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 12:52:58
subject: <b>Very good Theory!</b>
body:
Although I didn't know who they could merged through the balefire, now I'm convinced that the third Person is Moridin. Thanks for this answer! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-21 13:04:45
subject: <b>Rand's Dizziness</b>
body:
While I don't agree with your theory all the evidence you give supports a theory that Rand's dizziness is not caused by the Taint.  From your evidence it seems obvious to me that the dizziness was caused by the streams of balefire touching.  Makes me wonder if Moridin will/has develop/ed dizziness also or if the &quot;True Power&quot; protects him from any side effects.  This of course could support you theory also.


created: 2003-02-21 14:31:05
subject: <b>Good Job</b>
body:
I think you did a good job of taking something we had just been discussing on the message board finding the right quotes and fully convincing me your right.  I also believe that the dizziness could have come from this incident.  The timing is definitely right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">To all americans I say, 5 to 2, Canada wins olympic mens hockey gold 2002!<br /><br />I love Canada for three reasons: Molson, Labatt's and Muskoka!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 14:58:07
subject: <b>The merge</b>
body:
This is a great and scary theory. I always wondered where is coming from the dizziness of Rand since no other Ashaman seem to have this Saidin effect. This theory is fitting with the plan of Moridin to play both side of his strange game with The Fisher.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 16:38:43
subject: <b>I have my doubts</b>
body:
I always dismissed the blurry face from CoT as either Mat or Perrin, because wasn't he thinking of one of them at the time?


created: 2003-02-21 16:52:58
subject:
<b>Very nicely written! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I like the theory, though I don't agree.  If Lews Therin had any idea *who* that was, he'd be going ballistic.  Linked to that??  Yucko!<br /><br />Mind you, I don't think Moridin/Ishy would be terribly pleased about being stuck to an (to quote Moggy) &quot;Arrogant man who stank of piety and goodness,&quot; (TSR) either.<br /><br />How *does* one 'stink' of piety and goodness, anyway?<br /><br />And I *love* the elevator comment!<br /><br />Branwhin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-21 19:40:09
subject: <b>Other way around...</b>
body:
... is Moridin now seeing images of Rand? Will Rand and LTT somehow be able to take over Moridin's mind during the Last Battle?<br /><br />I always thought the Third Destroyer was the Fisher, to complete the trinity of LTT and Rand. Having three major spokes in the WoT seems like RJ's style, and having Rand/LTT/Fisher being the central mover in each of these struggles would make sense.


created: 2003-02-21 19:53:46
subject: <b>Thanks all</b>
body:
Thanks for the good words on the theory.  Something else kind of cool I have seen is in the 3rd man section on the WoT FAQ (the other one at http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan - not the other good one here at Wotmania).  A guy name James Huckby drew the idea from Hinduism that Rand is the Blessed Trinity<br />Brahma - a creator - Lews Therin<br />Vishnu - a preserver - Rand<br />Shiva - a destroyer<br />They don't mention a person as a destroyer, but Moridin would fit the bill perfectly.  I'm interested in finding out it Jordan used any of this as an inspiration.  <br /><br />Another thing about the balefire issues in general is why the DO specifically said to Demandred in Lord of Chaos's prologue: &quot;DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON.  WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?&quot; and then nothing became of it!  I always thought there was some grand purpose to that sentence, and so far nothing regarding Demandred has become of it.  Who knows, maybe Ishy did that task?  That is of course, if the balefire cross was performed with purpose.  It's hard to say because the Forsaken are not big fans of Mashadar either.  <br /><br />I wish we could find out more about if Moridin has felt the effects of this encounter, but we have really only had one POV from him which was in the prologue of Path of Daggers pretty much right after the event took place.  Rand didn't even start feeling the blurry face effects until after that point of time.  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-21 21:01:15
subject: <b>Rand's dizzyness...</b>
body:
... could be caused by the crossing of the balefire streams. This could explain Moridin's almost exclusive use of the True Power over the One Power. Perhaps the True Power buffers or negates the dizzyness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 09:24:26
subject: <b>If they really have merged?</b>
body:
If they really have merged, to one degree or another, then how can Moridin be Ishamael, since Rand is supposed to face him at the last battle? He would be destroying part of himself and preserving part of Rand within himself.<br /><br />It is more likely that, if Rand merged with Moridin, then Moridin is not Ishamael, but either an unknown forsaken or is not actually a forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 11:13:21
subject: <b>This was already theorized by Bad Ash...</b>
body:
quite some time ago.  Here's the link:<br /><br />http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=10&amp;Category=Archetype<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 12:39:02
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I loved the theory, but I'm not convinced.  I agree with what someone else said.  I believe it is a faint rememberance of Morridin.  I don't think that LTT would know Ishy new face.  Besides Balfire may have many unknown consequences.  I don't recall anyone ever hitting to streams together.  Maybe the incident gave him the sickness.  He is getting over the sickness.


created: 2003-02-22 12:56:52
subject: <b>There's something about....</b>
body:
There's something about that theory that just rings true, like it'd be something that RJ would do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 13:08:37
subject: <b>I think you're missing one of the biggest pieces from CoT</b>
body:
CoT, A Strengthening Storm, <br />&quot;Did he(Logain) think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering?  The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing.  The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond.  A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.<br />   For an instant, he(Rand) thought those must have been Lews Therin's reflections.  He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled.  But he could <i>feel</i> Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else.&quot;<br /><br />Considering how much Ishy studied the battle between the DO and the Creator I think that these thoughts may reflect his feelings.  It certainly strikes me as someone who spent a lot of time thinking about such things.  Considering that Rand eliminates LTT as the source and it is something that he himself had not thought much about it seems likely that it may have come from the third man.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-22 14:04:55
subject: <b>To Jim &amp; more on Moridin</b>
body:
Thanks for mentioning that Jim, it really strengthens my argument.  I went and read up on Ishamael in the guide (page 50) and these two passages add fuel:<br /><br />&quot;As Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time, possibly the foremost&quot; <br />and<br />&quot;it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the creation, an endless war between the Great Lord of the Dark and the Creator using human surrogates.&quot;<br /><br />This is great stuff, which reflects the thoughts from CoT.  Rand is literally playing out the sha'rah game in his head.  He has both the people playing the game for control in his mind.  It's as if Rand is the id, LTT the ego, and Moridin is the superego right now (unconcious thoughts).  So far LTT has control, but it looks doubtful from the mention of all this that he could keep it forever.  <br /><br />The question is what does Moridin want more than anything from what we have seen?  The <i>great sa'angreal access key. </i>  If Rand were to be taken over by Moridin and were to run amok with that thing (think Egwene's dream about the monstrous 100 foot Rand crushing people and buildings), no channeler or number of them could stop him... <i>but...  they could sever his use of it by cutting off his hand. </i><br /><br />That last part was quite random, but oh well!<br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


