# w_comment

created: 2002-09-04 20:19:02
subject: <b>Understanding the Westlands in REAL terms</b>
body:
There is a region of Earth that's quite similar to the Westlands: China. If you look at the map of the Weestlands and turn it around so that the coast of Tarabon and Arad Doman becomes the eastern coast and the Aiel Wast is to the west instead of the east of the Westlands. This is just like China with the Aiel Waste in the Gobi Desert and Tibet. As to languages, it's also like ancient China. The Chinese once had one single language (in the Xia, Shang and Zhou Dynasties), but as their culture grew far beyond their own river valley, dialects developed and languages emerged from these dialects during the dying days of the Zhou (Spring and Autumn Period and Warring States). China's first emperor burst out from an obscure state to conquer and unite the whole region (just like Hawkwing). Qin ShihHuangdi imposed a single writing system, thus forcing these languages to become merely dialects of the whole Chinese language.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-09 08:27:45
subject: <b>A Linguistics lesson for those of you who care</b>
body:
Thanks for the mention of Ancient China.  As for modern China, it's interesting.  There is a national language (we call it mandarin) and there are innumerable &quot;dialects&quot;.  They call them dialects in China because they see the writing system as the unifier (look back to what was said about Qin Shi Huang)  In reality, there are many different languages in China.  I was a linguistics major, and one thing that was discussed  in classes is the difficulty of defining when two different dialects can be said to be two different languages.  The common answer is mutual intelligibility.  I.E., can people understand one another.  In China there are places in the south where each neighboring village speaks, in essence, a different language.  They can't understand their neighbors.<br /><br />Let's take this a step further.  I remember a story from one of my classes talking about linguists making a trip from Berlin to Brussels, stopping at every city, town, and village on the way and recording the differences between the accents and dialects.  There were always a few differences between one town and the next, and people could understand neightboring towns.  This was the case for all neighboring towns.  But when arriving in Brussels, they found that the language there was completely different than what they started out with in Berlin.  Thi is to say that understand language and language change is far from simple.  For anyone here to make a case for or against the possibility of RJ's one language world being realistic, you'd need a ton more info about his world.  IMHO, I think RJ has done a great job in creating the Old Tongue, but believe that his one language land is (by earth standards) unrealistic.<br /><br />There's a saying in linguistics:  A language is a dialect with an army and a navy.<br /><br />(Look at Norway and Sweden for a good example.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 20:38:14
subject: <b>And how did the evolution of language stop?</b>
body:
Okay. The topic of language has appeared these days on the Message Board - and now I'll try to add one more point here.<br />Before I begin: I do tremendously enjoy WoT and find the &quot;old AD&amp;D trick&quot; (i.e. the axiom that everyone speaks the same language) almost entirely acceptable. It is just necessary for the story to work. However, those of us who are so inclined MAY go into how this could or could not be possible (after all, what would the world be without geeks?). You don't have to. If you are not interested in this, read something else or go watch a movie.<br /><br />Now. Many good pros and cons have been mentioned above. I'm nevertheless convinced that all the pros together are not enough to make the case. Language just does not work that way. It changes.<br />Printed language also changes, though more slowly. If you want to argue that, read a bestseller printed yesterday, then one printed 20 years ago, then one from 50 years ago, then 100, then 300 (yes, they did have bestsellers).<br />The language of international powers such as the White Tower also changes. Look at the Church in Europe. And I don't just mean the use of vernaculars after the Reformation; even church Latin evolved. Not to mention church English (get a King James bible and a modern translation).<br />The language of trading nations also changes. Trade does not in fact unify language, it diversifies it (provided of course that the traders are in contact with speakers of various languages, which may not have been the case shortly after the Breaking - but then, there was not much long-distance trade for a number of centuries after the Breaking, a period more than enough for local dialects to diversify). Trading ports use a kind of pidgin or lingua franca when they want to make transactions between speakers of different languages. Nobody uses pidgin for anything other than trading - it is not suitable, for lack of vocabulary. However, the languages collectively called Creole have evolved from various pidgins in the world - and they are very, very far from the major languages that had given birth to those pidgins. This after a history of a few hundred years, notwithstanding the unifying effect of the Church, of international trade, and of printed literature.<br /><br />BUT, enough of kicking the same old points again. There's yet another side to the original problem, which I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere. It seems that Common (C) has evolved from the Old Tongue (OT). When? How? The OT seems to have been the world language in the AOL. It is quite unlikely that the culture of the AOL could have a vernacular and an entirely different &quot;sacred language&quot;. So somehow, sometime, the OT evolved into C. It changed thoroughly: a native speaker of C cannot understand a bloody word of the OT. Probably the grammar has changed a lot too - though we have no information on this. Then, hey presto, evolution of language stopped. By the time of Hawkwing, everyone spoke C. And has gone on speaking C ever since. Even with the effect of Hawkwing's second unification of the &quot;world&quot;, this is just more than unlikely.<br />All right. That said, I'll go back to re-reading the cycle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your words sing in my ears,<br />Redwood Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 20:08:39
subject: <b>More Linguistics</b>
body:
For a book to be kept curent, it must be updated every 30 years.  A Language changes that fast.  So even if there are those who can read the older books, this would take time to learn to do, only the educated could do it.  Can you read Old English?  even Middle english?  I doubt you can understand 3 words in Middle let alone one if 50 of Old.  And that is what 7, 800 years removed, so give the Seanchan 1000, and what do you have?  <br />Even if they where united they children would still learn the language of the house, not on the conqerers so the languages would drift.  So by now after 3000 years, and the slowness of trade the largest a language would be as in land area, would be the Two Rivers size.  <br />Yes i know that RJ was making it ezer on himself by doing it this way, but get a picture of the way languages change.  There are 6809 languages curently spoken in the world.  Papua New Guinea has over 800 in an area the size of North Dakota.  Ther where over 280 indiginous to The States.  There are enough mountins and rivers and just plain distance to create around 80 languages in just the main land of Randland.  This would be to much to add fully to the story. So RJ just got rid of all of them.


created: 2003-05-26 19:17:34
subject: <b>Thorin the chosen..</b>
body:
&quot;Btw English *is* a Germanic Language, mostly. It's really a mix of German, French, Keltic , and a little from many other languages. To say that it's simply germanic would be misleading, as it's had several influences over the years.&quot;<br /><br />What about about the double heritage (latin and germanic)?<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-17 15:13:05
subject: <b>minor correction and alpha bets</b>
body:
I don't beleive there is any Celtic or Gaelic in English.<br /><br />Also there is one language which has been wholly ingnored. The Trolloc tounge, although it is not so important as it is probably just the common tongue made easier through it's own pronunciation to accomodate trollocs. But why is trolloc script so different(see below)if it is based on common.  But how have the mydraal maintained common being almost totally isolated in the blight with little or no interaction with people (save slaughter).<br /><br />Although they don't impact languages much and this is somewhat off topic alphabets do stay relatively similar over vast distances and time. Take the supposed original alphabet of pheonician or macedonian and look at english, greek or Futhark(Norse). The printing press would have maintained an almost identical alphabet.<br /><br />The trolloc script should be somewhat similar to common.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My sig got old and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 07:22:17
subject: <b>Germanic English</b>
body:
Yes, English is a Germanic language, meaning that it descended from the Germanic branch of the Indo-European language family. English has French characteristics due to the fact that the British and French have had a long history of interaction. In fact, you can tell when a word was borrowed from French by the form. Candle, chandelier, and chandler are all based on a French word for candle, but the beginning consonant is pronounced different due to the various times that they were borrowed. ([k] for candle, [sh] for chandelier, [ch] for chandler).<br /><br />As for Gaelic (Celtic, Scots, Irish, what have you), most of its influence on the English language has been in names. Numerous English names have Gaelic origins.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-12 07:46:15
subject: <b>Linguistical Realism?</b>
body:
I'm currently completing my second college/university paper upon the linguistics of WOT. So I thought I'd answer some things and add a few points:<br /><br />1. RJ is not a linguist, he hasn't even really studied English. Further, he seems to be quite content not having done that.<br /><br />2. Tolkien WAS an expert on languages, and therefore the LotR-world is well built up linguistically.<br /><br />3. It's easier to read a book/series where everyone speaks the same language.<br /><br />Now some conclusions: Combining the first two, I reach the conclusion that Tolkien set the bar so high, it's impossible for an author with Jordan's background to top, or even come near.<br /><br />Combining 1 &amp; 3, Jordan should have stuck to using one language. The problem is essentially that he built a world which is very realistic in many ways, and then he started messing up with old tongue and other language variations. Those do not meet the requirements set by Tolkien, AND they do not match the realism and detail in the rest of his work.<br /><br />As to why it's linguistically possible for the entire Randland to speak the same language, that has been discussed before. Even the Seanchan might be given an acceptable explanation. However, the Aiel et all is a problem. The easiest way to solve the whole languege mystery of Randland is to simply delete Old Tongue, or claim that the chraracters of today are in fact speaking &quot;Old tongue&quot;, but that it's been translated to English for us readers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-03 21:46:50
subject: <b>sorry, but no</b>
body:
Good try, but it just doesn't stand linguistically speaking. The Aiel and Sea Folk have most certainly been separated long enough for new languages to develop. Hell, English has changed immensely (try reading Old English then get back to me!) in much less time than three thousand years. Languages change. Always. Now, the language in WoT has changed slightly but not by as much as it should have after such a long time. <br /><br />Perhaps just maybe all the trade and slight interaction between Sea Folk/Aiel and Mainlanders has kept them all on the same page, but the Seanchan would absolutely not speak the same language at all. When one language comes in contact with another, a new language is created. Example: Latin becoming Spanish. The only way one language wouldn't impact another is if the speakers of one language completely dominated the speakers of another (ex., the Americans coming over and completely wiping out the Natives), which did not happen in the case of the Seanchan (there are still natives in existence on a larger scale than the Natives in the US today). <br /><br />Now to my disclaimer: I would have to look at the entire history of the WoT world to come to any definite conclusions. It is very, very improbable that even the Mainlanders language wouldn't change over a three thousand year span, nevermind that all the non-Mainlanders' wouldn't, BUT, there is an extremely slight possibility. I very seriously doubt it in the case of the Seanchan unless they pretty much wiped out the natives and didn't allow them to speak their languages ever, and it's next to impossible for the Sharans. I think it's more likely that RJ just had to have them speak the same language to make the story flow. I'm willing to accept this slight bend of reality instead of having to read a whole chapter on Rand trying to find interpreters or worse, trying to learn all the different languages. <br /><br />-a linguistics nerd


created: 2001-09-01 21:34:41
subject: <b>Didn't see him</b>
body:
I AGREE WITH THE THEORY, BUT I HAVE TO ADD THAT RAND DID NOT SEE JANDUIN WHEN HE WENT INTO THE TER'ANGREAL IN RHUIDEAN<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 22:20:09
subject: <b>yep, no Janduin</b>
body:
When you go into the Rhuidean ter'angreal, you see your lineage yes, but only from when Rhuidean was made back.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-01 22:35:34
subject: <b>Well, hardly Janduin, but...</b>
body:
I doubt it's really possible to be your father re-born. Even if &quot;being re-born&quot; does not have to be something done exactly at birth (or earlier), the wheel does seem to take more time than a measly few years before having someone reborn.<br /><br />Despite that, I have seen this theory before, and it has got a nice symmetry which would seem pretty Robert Jordanesk. The Aiel that was suggested then though, was Lewin, whom Rand DID see in Rhuidean. He's the one who first started the Aiel on the path of violence and therefore would not only be a very important person in the history of Aiel (which could mean a wheel-bound character), but also very much what Lews Therin could call a &quot;destroyer&quot;. I believe more evidence was being brought up, but nothing I can remember right now. Lewin should be the most probable of the Aiel presented to us up to now.<br /><br />More clues could probably be found out if it would be possible to see what action caused the voices to appear. I can't recall what could have caused Lews Therin to appear. Although it happened quite a while before we have evidence of a third personality, it seems the death of the Aiel Maiden of the Spear Liah, in Shadar Logoth, could be the trigger for a possible third person Aiel, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 12:51:23
subject: <b>Not Janduin</b>
body:
If LTT represents the past and Rand the present, I think the third &quot;voice&quot; represents the future or what will exist after the Last Battle.  :-)<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-04 15:07:50
subject: <b>Why a third man</b>
body:
I don't think the 3rd man represents the future but rather the age in between.  If Rand is in the 3rd age, and LTT was the 1st age, then there must have been a Dragon Reborn in the 2nd age.  That's the mysterious 3rd man.


created: 2001-09-04 15:13:00
subject: <b>Lews Therin was 2nd age. NOT 1st.</b>
body:
And I rather believe the part of Rand - Min, Lews - Elayne, Some Aiel (Lewin!?!?) - Aviendha.<br /><br />The classic idea seems to be some old Dragon though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 18:50:49
subject: <b>What war?</b>
body:
I may have misread your theory but it sounded like you just said Lewy Ther united a group of people that hd been warring for centuries. Recall that in th AoL there was no war, it was something to tell in stories not enact in life. If I have misinterpreted your words I apoplogize by the way./<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 19:54:06
subject: <b>Ilyena and Elayne</b>
body:
It is very probable that Ilyena was Aes Sedai herself.  She was married to Lews Therin in a time when Aes Sedai were known to have much longer life spans than those who couldn't channel, so an obvious assumption would be that Aes Sedai married Aes Sedai.  An important note is that if Ilyena was an Aes Sedai in the AoL, then her strength would have been greater than those of the third age. We also know that she was with Lews Therin to the end--where she was killed.  From this we can imply several things: 1) She loved Lews Therin enough to stay with him when he was crazy, and thus 2) She fought against the dark one as an Aes Sedai, and finally 3) Her deeds would warrant her being reborn.  <br />Elayne exhibits all of the physical attributes that we know about Ilyena (which I know doesn't mean anything in rebirth).  Also, Elayne is stronger in the power than most Aes Sedai of the third age.  However, the main reason is Lews' constant mourning for Ilyena when he is around Elayne...


created: 2001-11-02 20:35:13
subject: <b>i know</b>
body:
what if the third man is guiare amsalom? (ignore my spelling) he was a warrior and probably a taveren


created: 2002-01-05 18:30:00
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
LTT didnt unite warring people<br /><br />janduin is rand's father so LTT wouldnt recognize him<br /><br />the Breaking was in the 4th age(see book 1, the 2 excerps after the prologue)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Bob, the Happy Vampire   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />=</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 14:01:01
subject: <b>3rd man?</b>
body:
I'm reminded of the start of every book, history to legend to myth etc.<br /><br />The 3rd man comes after Rand or before LTT,  it is a wheel after all, what is his r&#244;le we don't know yet. This man is long forgotten in the 3rd age.


created: 2002-03-19 08:26:24
subject: <b>It's Moridin</b>
body:
I reckon the whole Rand seeing double when he seizes saidin (and now when he doesn't) is an after effect of the balefires crossing in Shadar Logoth. So it would seem quite possible that the third face is Moridin some connection has been made between them. This would explain why LTT sort of reconises the third face - it's Ishmaels face.


created: 2002-03-19 09:18:08
subject: <b>Shbotay's Right . . .</b>
body:
Ishmael is as good a choice as any . . . his appearances in Rand's dreams and Ba'alzamon's &quot;voices&quot; in his head could be forshadowing in the earlier books.  Moridin's role as the leading candidate for Nae'blis (currently) would put him firmly in place as Rand's chief nemesis.<br /><br />Second, it is possible Moridin's presence in Rand will be furthered once Rand learns to reliably use the True Power.  Until that time, Moridin is like a dormant voice in his head.<br /><br />Third, there is a peculiar sort of order to the three men.  Rand represents Good, LTT represents Neutrality (since he was good but ended up going mad and destroying everyone close to him), and Moridin is clearly evil.  We've certainly seen Rand exhibit behavior to fall into all three of these categories:  Rand the good guy, Rand the crazy and haunted man who ignores or is indifferent towards some important issues, and he's said himself that to beat the Shadow he must become harder than the Shadow.<br /><br />The only problem is Aviendha.  Sure, Min and Rand make a good match, and Elayne is a believable Ilyena, but I can't quiet see Moridin and Aviendha ever hooking up.<br /><br />Good idea.  I'd like to hear more evidence.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-15 10:59:51
subject: <b>True Power?</b>
body:
I can't imagine that Rand will every use the True Power.  It comes from the DO, is completely corrupted and you need to be granted it from the DO. It is possible that it might be used to tempt Rand, but he will never touch it. Touching it and becoming one with Moridin would be too much of a melding between good and evil, blurring the line way too much.  In WOT, good and evil are two forces, and Rand fights for goo. Using the TP would require submitting to the DO and it's corrupting effects.  Also, I don't think it is accurate to say that LTT represents neutrality, even if he did go nuts.  The dragon is the Light made flesh, his deeds were a direct result of the taint, not of his own will.  I don't think that Moridin is the third man, even thought he is a popular choice.  I think that from the very beginning, Ishamael/Moridin and LTT/Rand have been set up as opposites, ancient enemies, but not two parts of the same soul, or anything.  The way that LTT refers to #3 it sounds like they are all one, and have always been, not that a new guy showed up as a result of balefire crossing. I could be wrong, but I get a feeling that Moridin isn't who he means.


created: 2002-06-02 16:26:37
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
I don't think so. Janduin might have been a clan chief, and he might have been a damn good warrior and leader, but I don't think he'll be the 3rd person in Rand's head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 21:43:18
subject: <b>wait a second there...</b>
body:
Don't you think the voices in Rand's head should ALL be his former selves (in other words Dragons Reborn)? It makes more sense like that. Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.<br />Alrae <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="goldenrod">Lady Alrae of House Carillon</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="maroon">Snooty Tairen Noble Extraordinaire</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /> AKA <b><font color="red">Paine</font></b> <img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><b>I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All Hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 11:47:25
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Maybe I'm just dumb, but why does there have to be a third man. I don't think LTT is a match for Elayne (who is a red head by the way) anyways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Goddamn it! Who gave Max Payne the power to channel?&quot; - Edge<br />&quot;Max Payne is officially Naeblis!&quot; - Maddy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 01:18:52
subject: <b>Yes, but not Janduin</b>
body:
I completely agree with this theory, because it has been bugging me and many others that the balance of the wheel of time is skewed with Rand's three women.  I agree that the third voice will be that of a warrior, to complement Rand's warrior side as LTT does to his ruling side (LTT was not a great general).  I disagree however that it is Janduin, I think it is a warrior of the same soul as Rand and LTT, but of the age before the age of legends.  Anyway, just sharing my thoughts.<br /><br />-the real car'a'carn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 13:14:03
subject: <b>Third Man</b>
body:
The third man is the Fisher - both Rand &amp; LTT in a previous incarnation before the AoL- myth (and board game) at the time of Aol, as even the Dark One had been forgotten.


created: 2003-01-17 05:13:12
subject: <b>Three men - three women</b>
body:
Hi, This is my first post, and it could be that this has already been said and I missed it. <br />I like the theory and had thought along these lines myself. However If you look at the three women with Rand, Elayne - Lews Therin go together, how about putting Rand (the son of an Aeil clan Chief with Aviendha the Aeil Wise One(or will be) Leaving Min &quot;The Seer&quot; with the third man, who could be the Fisher. We don't know much about this character but in the realms of fantasy and in our own history the blind beggar image is often associated with Seers or people with a supposed &quot;Third Eye&quot;.  I could be completely off track but maybe...<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-15 17:39:20
subject: <b>just a comment on Ilyena</b>
body:
TaisharManetheren pointed out why he thought Ilyena was an Aes Sedai, but I think his &quot;proof&quot; is seriously flawed. <br />The BWB tells us she only married LTT 50 years before the War of Power, so she would have died let's say 70 (50 + 10 years War of Power + 10 years of Breaking of the World although that seems somewhat long, but hey who knows) years later. Knowing that, due to the good Restorers and extremely good life standards in the AoL, people easily lived to be 200, Ilyena could have married LTT at a young age and still be far from an old woman by the time she died.<br />She had a third name, granted, but I don't think that's proof she was Aes Sedai, just proof that she was good at whatever she did. One last thing to think about: if by the time LTT and the 100 Companions struck at the Bore, there were hardly any female Aes Sedai at all who had not joined the Fateful Concord, then that would imply that Ilyena, IF she was Aes Sedai, had joined the Fateful Concord as well, which sounds doubtful at best to me. So I doubt she was Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 12:40:22
subject: <b>Response to SuperGirl...</b>
body:
I do seem to remember Rand did use the True Power for just a minute or two... I don't remember where it was at but didn't he like cut one of the dark &quot;ropes&quot; that was attached to a Forsaken and didn't it latch one to him and he used the power to kill that Forsaken? wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 15:55:51
subject: <b>Something like</b>
body:
Vishnu, Sheba, and Brahmin? It's kind of like the destroyer, the preserver, and the maker. All parts of Rand's personality - he wants to create something to leave behind (the Academies) and that pro. He wants to preserve peace and as many people as he can, and also he needs to destory the ties that bind, probably some other stuff. I think every Dragon is in some way all of these. Although, that still leaves the question of Mat and Perrin, whether they are the other two incarnations of the mentioned Hindu gods or whether the Dragon is only one of the above every time he's reincarnated. All in all, I think Rand loves three women because they represent the past present and future, although I don't know how I got to that conclusion.


created: 2005-02-01 15:32:37
subject: <b>i thought</b>
body:
i thought the women repersented the bloodlines and upbringings of rand;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> min repersents his two rivers childhood<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> elayne repersents his mother the former daughter heir<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> aviendha repersents his father the aiel clan chief<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 17:46:46
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
i think that the three women all represent parts of rands upbringing. however i don't see how the third man could be a future dragon, how could LTT possibly recognize him? On top of that everyone Rand has seen from the AOL so far LTT has recognized immediatly. Therefore this person, not being known to Rand, only LTT, seems to be someone LTT never thought he would see again.<br /><br />For me this leads to the belief that when LTT went mad from the taint, he saw his previous self in his head, and that is who the third man is, another past version of the Dragon.


created: 2001-09-01 22:23:19
subject: <b>Nyeneve</b>
body:
Hmm....RJ always says, through Nyeneve, &quot;Anything short of death should be able to be healed.&quot;  What if Nyeneve finds out how to heal death?  It would mean she would have to be killed off very quickly afterwords, but still, Rand would live twice.  Or, also possible, Rand could be put in a keeping weave at the verge of death.  Thus, 'not yet dead, but not yet alive.'  If Rand's Life was hanging in the ballance, then the fate of the world could teeter on the edge of a blade....I need more caffine...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 23:18:24
subject: <b>Yes, and what about Elayne's comment?</b>
body:
&quot;Nynaeve won't be happy until she's healed someone three days dead&quot; - three days match the Christian mythology of Jesus' resurrection.<br /><br />(I do use the word mythology, for &quot;myth&quot; means a story (with no inherent implication as to truth or falsehood - &quot;based on a true story&quot; is a common phrase) to explain something, and the Holy Bible is most certainly a story to explain something).<br /><br />Also, Rand tried to heal a dead girl in the Stone with Callandor.  Not evidence, but possible foreshadowing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 03:13:40
subject: <b>Why Rand will die, and how he might be reborn</b>
body:
Rand will die to fulfill the various prophecies noted but it will be after/while he defeats the Great Lord of the Dark for the end of the Third Age (called Tarmon Gaidon by some). Lews Therin died by killing himself after he had defeated the Great Lord at the end of the Second Age.<br /><br />Rand's &quot;death&quot; after fighting Moridin (interesting pun there) or some other powerful evil being may be temporary eg three days dead (this may be a death-like trance) and he may be brought back to life by Nynaeve (and others?). <br /><br />Nevertheless, at some point after Tarmon Gaidon, Rand's death will be permanent.<br /><br />His soul will then be available for reincarnation in the Fourth Age, as was Lews Therin's, when the Dragon will once again ride the winds of time.<br /><br />Rand's soul (and Lews Therin's for that matter) will be delivered to the next Champion of the Light in time for the Battle at the end of the Fourth Age to occur as has occurred countless thousands of times since the Wheel of Time first started Turning.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am the Centre of the Universe ... the Winds of<br /> Time are blowing through me and it's all moving<br />relative to me...&quot; Hawkwind: _Masters of the Universe_<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 11:04:23
subject: <b>a couple of things</b>
body:
I believe that this,<br />&quot;The Reborn One, marked and bleeding, dances the sword in dreams and mist,.....&quot;<br />has already happened, at the end of tGH with Ishy.<br /><br />Also another possible quote for foreshadowing Rand's resurrection is in WH,from Halwin Norry,<br />&quot;I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.&quot;<br /><br />Anyway, I believe that Rand will die at TG, or fgrom wounds sustained there and then be resurrected by Nynaeve, possibly with the help of Flinn.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-02 22:47:38
subject: <b>What the prophecy may mean</b>
body:
Nicola's Foretelling:<br /><br />Part 1:<br />  The lion sword = Elayne<br />  The dedicated spear = Aviendha<br />  She who sees beyond = Min<br /><br />No debate here.  These are it.  Plain as day.<br /><br />Part 2:<br />   &quot;Three on the boat&quot; could refer to the Sea Folk, or possibly to Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  It could also be Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.  Or a number of other things.<br /><br />   &quot;He who is dead, yet lives&quot; could refer to Mat.  It may also be Lews Therin Telamon.  Or Rand after Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />Part 3:<br />   The great battle done, but the world not done with battle = aftermath of Tarmon Gai'don.<br />   The land divided by the return = Seanchan invasion and the division it produces, both on the mainland and on Seanchan<br />   And the guardians balance the servants = Aes Sedai and Asha'man on equal numbers, with Egwene's recruits.<br />   The future teeters on the edge of a blade. = what it says.  I don't think there's anything deep to this.<br /><br />Now for the markings:<br />&quot;Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die.<br />&quot;Once the heron, to set his path.<br />&quot;Twice the heron, to name him true.<br />&quot;Once the dragon, for rememberance lost.<br />&quot;Twice the dragon, for the price he must pay.&quot;<br /><br />The two for life are the setting of the path and the rememberance lost.  The two for death are the price he must pay and the naming him true.  Remember, he almost died when he got the second heron, and it named him for the man who must die to save the world.  The second dragon came because he must pay the price of destroying all but the slightest remnant of the Aiel.  These are the two deaths.<br /><br />I do not think I made much to add to what you said, but my intent was to point out alternate interpretations.  We really do not know, but it is fun to think about it.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 07:32:34
subject: <b>The great battle done...</b>
body:
Couldnt this mean that the battle between the DO and Rand is over, Rand being near death... but the greater battle is not yet over and he must be protected (conveniently by the girls)??? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />... just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Damael<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Damael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Women love us for our defects. If we have enough of them, they will forgive us everything, even our gigantic intellects&quot;.</i> - Oscar Wilde</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 15:03:01
subject: <b>Further thoughts after the battle</b>
body:
Nicola's fortelling most definitely addresses the war for land that will continue after Rand defeats the DO.  That war will be between the Seachan (North &amp; East) vs. existing Randlanders (South &amp; West).  The refernce to the blade is the dividing line in between.  Perhaps Matt's giving up half the light of the world to save the world refers to his sacraficing the chance to lead the Seachan empire in order to bring peace to the land. <br /><br />I don't believe Nyneve will raise Rand from the dead because she has done too much already.  First she helps him defeat Rahvine and then she helps to clean the taint.  Other women have to help him sooner or later.<br /><br />The remnant of a remnant that will survive among the Aiel refers to not the number that will survive but the culture that will survive.  That remnant being the Aiel living a peaceful life - a concept which is a remnant of a remnant among the existing Aiel.


created: 2001-09-04 19:21:54
subject: <b>Just a thought on interpretations....</b>
body:
&quot;Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth. Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul......&quot;<br /><br />   Could refer to Elaynes children being born on that day. I recall some one pointing out that they might be the reborn twins that showed up in TGH and were born to herald the end of an old age and the birth of a new one. Also I think that a TG something may happen to Aviendha at SG to account for Mins odd viewing about her (avienhas) children being born.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 02:37:09
subject: <b>i agree with you Raserei except...</b>
body:
... your last paragraph about Nicola's Fortelling getting better with time. Fortelling is just something some channelers have or do not have. Its not something that can be practiced or worked with to get better. She did not even know she had said anything. She just felt odd after.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 18:58:20
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
...with Raserei and Kaiser Karl on this one.  The Lion Sword=Elayne, etc.  &quot;Three in a boat&quot; to me means the three just mentioned, taking Rand off somewhere -- remember the Arthurian connection, with Arthur taken off on a barge to Avalon by three ladies.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 16:02:26
subject: <b>now now,</b>
body:
Personally, i think Rand will be killed but brought back because of his killer being balefired.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 23:19:31
subject: <b>The future...blade</b>
body:
Pretty much in agreeance with most. Only random thought is that the blade might be Callandor- my life isn't riding on this thought, so feel free to disregard it..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 00:44:47
subject: <b>Keeping it simple</b>
body:
I agree with a previous post, I was thinking in the simplest terms of someone balefiring and that would bring Rand back from being dead, and could also make the day dawn twice...


created: 2001-10-03 10:11:06
subject: <b>Rand won't die</b>
body:
I believe that Rand will somehow fake his own death after the Last Battle. Egwene's dream about Logain stepping over a puppet of Rand kind of supports this theory, as well as the foretelling about he who is dead yet lives. Just a thought.


created: 2001-11-02 13:49:38
subject: <b>Twice dawns the day his blood is shed</b>
body:
I had a thought on this.  What if the first time is him dying, and the second is for his children being born<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 22:10:47
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
we could analyze this to death, so i'll just say i agree it will be a healing. there is so much emphasis put on Nynaeve's ability and her need to always learn more and become stronger and better. there is mention of healing the dead a few times, and she's already been able to heal women who are cut off from the source.<br /><br />but also, i think because he's not a typical person, there will have to be a male contribution to his healing. my memory fails me of course, who is the ashaman who is the healer? i can't remember the name but i think he will have a part in it.


created: 2002-06-15 11:23:15
subject: <b>The future teeters on the edge of a blade</b>
body:
I think that this may have more meaning then you think. The last battle may depend on the edge of a blade. Now what blade is there? Callandor. This may be the most important sa'angreal.


created: 2003-01-30 01:21:18
subject: <b>Raserei is right</b>
body:
I have to agree with Raserei. I think this was the first fortelling that I understood as I read it the first time. Nice try for an alternate though, and you never know with RJ.


created: 2004-12-08 14:00:23
subject: <b>the blade</b>
body:
cadsuane said that for callandor to be safe there had to be a circle of 2 women and 1 man. i think that it is more than convienient that the three greatest healers in the world (nyneave, flinn and the kin woman) happen to fit this requirement. i believe that they will at some point combine their talents to heal something big. im not saying this would be rands death, its more likely to be his side wounds but u neva no!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 20:13:31
subject: <b>Well, I don't know... Semirhage might know.</b>
body:
We really have very little to go on, since we don't know much more than that it's a crystal throne. Sa'angreals seem to be of Crystal, and thrones could probably be sa'angreals.<br /><br />But still. Would someone make a throne a particularly strong sa'angreal? Unless it is accessible like the one in Cairhien or portable as Callandor, it seems the usefulness of such a sa'angreal would be severely limited. That's the main problem.<br /><br />In any case, if you are right, Semirhage ought to know. I doubt the second strongest sa'angreal made for a man would be something kept a secret for the Forsaken. They should all have heard of it, and therefore Semirhage would have seen it as soon as she was near the Empress. If that's the case, we should know pretty soon if you are right...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 21:03:45
subject: <b>ooooh, sorry, sorry, but thank you for playing.....</b>
body:
it's already been stated (in the BWB) that the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal that produces a feeling of awe in all who approach it...and what does a red crystal chair in Rhuidan have to do with anything?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 02:55:46
subject: <b>What?!</b>
body:
A number of Seanchan characters have said that they feel awe in the presence of the crystal throne, or that everyone submits to the empress on the crystal throne, or seomthing like this, i don't have the exact quote. This suggests that it is a terangreal, not a sa'angreal. Also, what kind of moron would make a sa'angreal in the shape of a throne!!! I mean really!!


created: 2001-09-04 05:07:05
subject: <b>Is this based on my post on the message board?</b>
body:
I don't think that the Crystal Throne would be the missing sa'angreal. As someone mentioned, it is a ter'angreal, not a sa'angreal. I also read a valid point that it would be too cumbersome to transport to use. (Would be cool if it was a rocking chair to cast some weaves from though...think of the comfort factor).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Member of the ASI <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 07:44:22
subject: <b>not a Sa'angreal but a Ter'angreal</b>
body:
I believe that the crystal throne is a ter'angreal that imposes feelings of loyalty on those that are brought into its area of effect for whoever is sitting on the throne.  This Ter'angreal was probably built after the breaking by one of the ae sedai who ruled before the seanchan came.


created: 2001-09-04 08:50:05
subject: <b>not the sa'angreal</b>
body:
First of all i think the Crystal throne of the Seanchanis a compulsion ter'angreal.<br />Secondly, I think the red crystal chair is a binding-chair, like the one Graendal and Sammael were talking about.<br />Thirdly, I think the sa'angreal is something either in Elayne's collection of &quot;rubbish&quot; or one of the &quot;old artifacts&quot; Bayle had in his posession.<br />Only time can tell.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 09:22:00
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
Could someone please tell me where exactly in the books this &quot;missing sa'angreal&quot; is mentioned? I have never heard of it!


created: 2001-09-04 10:08:54
subject: <b>Hm...</b>
body:
I think I read somewhere that the Throne might've been a ter'angreal....  It said that whoever approached the throne was forced down on their knees by some kind of an invisible force...  This may, of course, also be explained by the presence of a damane...


created: 2001-09-04 11:41:24
subject: <b>one question....</b>
body:
does anyone bother to read the previous comments before they post????  it's lovely to read the same thing stated over and over...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 14:37:06
subject: <b>ok ok ok</b>
body:
it`s obviously a ter`angreal and this rubbish about a missing sa`angreal is just that RUBBISH , i`m sure there is hundreds of sa`angreal missing , and on another note if there is male sa`angreal/ter`angreal/angreal in the stuff Elayne has ... she`s throwing them away !!!!!!!!!!!!! D`OH<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> follower of The Church Of The Probable Opinions&#169; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> marked with the dreaded LVIII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> smoker of the big choo choo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> bearer of the monolith <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> died from the shock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> 4th Letter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 14:38:47
subject: <b>Errrm</b>
body:
Who said it was the second strongest male sa'angreal? IO thought Lanfear simply said that there were only 2 male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. It could be the most powerful.


created: 2001-09-04 15:08:35
subject: <b>Probably the second...</b>
body:
It's said numerous times that the sa'angreals in Cairhien and Tremalking are the two greatest (it possibly say strongest, but I can't check the books) sa'angreals ever made. Myself as well as almost everyone else has interpreted this to mean they are the strongest (or at least that everyone talking about them thinks so).<br /><br />While it's possible that Lanfear has more knowledge than anyone else of this and knows of a sa'angreal almost no one else (even in AOL) knows about, it's highly unlikely. She thinks she could take on the Creator if she and Rand linked the two Great sa'angreals. To think there is a stronger... No, it's probably the second strongest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 16:40:12
subject: <b>ter'angreal....</b>
body:
i can't remember any Seanchan talking about being forced down on their knees in front of the Crystal Throne....and i never read thad ' Big White Book ' or...whatever. so. I do think the Crystal Throne IS a sa'angreal. I think its what Ishy/ Elan Morin Tedronai was talkin' about in the first chapater of EoTW. ' Once you stood first amoung the Servants [ Aes Sedai ]. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. ' one of my friends, a wot-head like myself, said that the Crystal Throne was Lews Therin's Throne, brought by ...Artur Hawking's son to Seanchan. so.<br />maybe im wrong. maybe im right. we dont really know, until.....say, Aviendha remembers how the hell she made a Gateway from Rhuirdean to Seanchan. Or until some Asha'man/Aes Sedai decided to make a Gateway there, and just stands somewhere they know, and estimates how far out into the ocean they want to go. and then keep pushing the distance of the gateway further and further away until they reach Seanchan. ::shrug:::<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Knave  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Slave to 6 Mistress'<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-04 19:26:06
subject: <b>OOoooh Me likey</b>
body:
Good theory there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 01:59:52
subject: <b>To Knave: It IS a terangreal</b>
body:
The Big White Book was writen by Robert Jordan. The book says the Crystal Throne IS a terangreal that makes people have a feeling of awe for whoever is sitting in it. As we all know terangreal can be used by anyone, even people who cannot channel, which explains why the Empress can use it.<br />I don't remember it saying anything about it forcing you to kneel. But I do remember reading in one of the books of the series that no one is allowed to stand or look upon the empress without her permission. Maybe thats were some people are getting the forced kneeling thing from.<br /><br />Just thought you should know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 13:41:37
subject: <b>to Artelangio</b>
body:
Lanfear mentions in tSR, chapter 9, Decisions, that<br />&quot;Not with that certainly,' she said, grimacing at <i>Callandor.</i>  'There are only two more powerful that a man can use.  One at least, I know still exists.&quot;<br />The one she knows of is the Choedan Kal buried outside of Cairhein.  Anyway, I'd say it's pretty obvious that the Crystal Throne is a <i>ter'angreal</i> not a <i>sa'angreal.</i><br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 19:07:59
subject: <b>Sangreal</b>
body:
Personally I subscribe to the Holy Grail theory (sangreal = Holy Grail) for the reason that they sound alike and that the Holy Grail has become synonymous with something very, very valuable that's completely lost.  <br />Furthermore, there are the stories of the Holy Grail having healing capabilities, which means that if the missing sa'angreal is the sangreal, then we might have our method of raising Rand from the dead.  Only problem is that Nynaeve can't use saidin, but perhaps she could link with Flinn or someting.  (Flinn? Can't remember precisely how to spell it.  The guy who Healed Rand that one time is who I mean.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 18:37:48
subject: <b>ummm actualy..</b>
body:
	I seem to recall a seachen mentioning that the crystal throne is a ter'angel that imposes a sense of awe over all who approach it.  i think it was in Winter's Heart


created: 2001-10-28 10:38:11
subject: <b>ooopppsss</b>
body:
The crystal throne is a Ter'angral which imposes awe and a willing ness to serve to all who view a person sitting in it.<br /><br />That's in the guide<br />


created: 2001-11-30 10:33:14
subject: <b>I can't believe it</b>
body:
I really can't believe that this theory has a 71% agreement rate when The Guide, written by Robert Jordan if you didn't know that, flat-out contradicts it.


created: 2002-01-15 18:10:24
subject: <b>What the....</b>
body:
Where are some of you loony people coming up with the idea that the throne is a sa'angrel? Jobert Jordon, who happens to probably know more than any of us about sa'angrels and ter'angrels, STATES that the throne IS a ter'angrel. I wish some of you people would get a clue and realize that it is not a sa'angrel. I mean.... how much more proof do you people need? The man said it wasn't one. *rolls eyes*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 12:30:28
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
why cant pepole read the message board before they post their replyes...<br />i got the guide infront of me and on page 160 it sais:<br />&quot;The Crystal Throne itself is a great ter'angreal that causes anyone who approaches it to feel immence ave and wonder&quot;<br />so i think we can rule this teori out...<br />or maby it's both a sa'angreal and a ter'angreal <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> maby


created: 2002-04-02 11:11:52
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
It says in the Guide that the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal that inspires awe in people looking at someone on it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">|Tel Janin|<br />Demigod of Wotmania<br />Destroyer of Hope<br />The Lion of Bethania<br /><br />&#8220;Millions of eyes can&#8217;t see,<br />Yet why am I so blind?<br />When someone else is me,<br />It&#8217;s unkind, it&#8217;s unkind.&#8221;  The Beegees, &#8220;Holliday&#8221;<br /><br />I</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 20:56:12
subject: <b>Isn't the Crystal Throne a ter'angreal</b>
body:
I believe I read somewhere in the books that when people entered the throne room with the Empress in the chair, they were immediately struck with a feeling of awe and servitude.  I haven't looked this up or anything, so i could be wrong.  However, I'm pretty sure when I read it was clear the Crystal Throne was a ter'angreal.  Sounds to me like a ter'angreal of Compulsion, and most probably one that could be used without being able to channel.  Correct me if I'm wrong.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Belzedar Coren Torak  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-05 04:16:19
subject: <b>Continuing the last item.....</b>
body:
I think, Lord Zedar, that it can be used by non-channellers, since the Empress would be collared, could she channel. The Guide does specifically state it is a ter'angreal. I also seem to recall that the reason Seanchan has Empresses and not Emperors, is that men go mad sitting on the Crystal Throne. One would assume this is from the Taint on saidin. This would imply it is a ter'angreal, capable of channelling both saidin and saidar. This also assumes that the person sitting in the chair controls the &quot;awe&quot; (or should it be Awe?). In any case, I personally don't think it is the &quot;lost sa'angreal&quot;, second to the Cairhien Statue.<br /><br />Aloha,<br /><br />Joe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 00:51:18
subject: <b>Seanchan Prophecies</b>
body:
In the Seanchan prophecies it says that Rand must kneel before the Crystal Throne before the Last Battle or all will be lost according to Tuon. Maybe since <i>saidin</i> is now untainted Rand will use it to win the Tarmon Gaidon. Perhaps Elayne will make a ter'angreal that he can take with him. And then they all can link and kick some butt. Just a comment. Don't know why no one thought of it before. Unless Rand decides from the awe-spiring sense he gets from it to join the Seanchan. So if they have the Crystal Throne and the Choedan Kal and Callandor with the Aes Sedai to take the taint off(unless it disappeared with the cleansing). Is there a limit to the sa'angreal per person or per circle? Anyway hope this made sense.


created: 2002-09-27 21:22:28
subject: <b>Actually, it's a ter'angreal</b>
body:
I believe that the Crystal Throne is a <br />ter'angreal with the ability to inflict compulsion on those who speak to someone sitting in it.<br /><br />There are several supporting moments in Winter's Heart for this.  In one some Seanchan talks about the &quot;awe and feeling of complete obiedience felt towards the Empress while kneeling in front of the Crystal Throne.&quot;  This could also explain why Ishamael included the &quot;the Dragon must kneel in front of the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don or all is lost&quot; in his version of the Prophecies.<br /><br />Also, it would explain why the Seanchan armies are so regimented and Ogier are turned into killers.  Quite possibly the Empress herself can actually channel, and we know Tuon can and Semirhage is around.  Of course, it might just not require channeling... Anyway, the sa'angreal theory makes sense but I think this makes more sense.


created: 2002-12-26 15:27:44
subject: <b>a side note</b>
body:
Does anyone remember the dream Egwene had about Rand sitting in someones throne and they were murderously angry about it? Wouldn't the Empress (may she live for ever) have such feelings? And why would Rand sit on the throne if it didn't have anything to do with the one power that he could use to his advantage? Just curious as NO ONE seems to have drawn this conclusion. <br /><br /><br /><br />                    Let me know <br /><br />                       The Net Weaver


created: 2002-12-30 22:40:39
subject: <b>We were told...</b>
body:
that the Crystal Thrown was a ter'angreal that inspires awe. We are also told that the 2 most powerful sa'angreal are the ones in Cairhien and Tremalking. This theory shouldn't be here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~TMM<br /><br />Commander of the Lemurs, Destroyer of Worlds<br /><br /><b><font color="red">This message was edited by 100 lemurs at 25:25:25 AM 13/39/3000</font></b><br /><br /><font color="red">Hail the lemurs. They know where you live.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 00:03:44
subject: <b>The C rystal Throne is a terangreal so it can't be a sa'angreal</b>
body:
In the WOT companion on p 160 the Crystal Throne is described as 'a great terangreal that causes anyone who approaches it ti feel immense awe and wonder. Of course only the reigning monarch is allowed to use it.'<br /><br />Therefore, since it is a terangreal, your theory that the Crystal Throne is a sanngreal cannot be right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-20 12:03:20
subject: <b>Nope...</b>
body:
The Crystal Throne can't be the missing sa'angreal because the Big White Book states that the Crystal Throne &quot;is a great ter'angreal that causes anyone who apporaches it to feel immense awe and wonder.&quot;  So there you go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 14:15:24
subject: <b>Empress can channel??</b>
body:
Here's a crazy thought...  Maybe the Crystal Throne does require the ability to channel.  It's been said (tGH) that the Empress has a special fondness for Tuon, who might also be able to channel.  And we know that women who channel feel a kinship with each other.  Wouldn't it be great if, on top of the fact that sul'dam can learn to channel, the throne itself depended upon the One Power?


created: 2007-01-13 06:12:29
subject: <b>1st Choedan Kal</b>
body:
I appears highly unlikely to me that the Aes Sedai would make the second most powerful sa'angreal in the form of a great big hulking throne. But where did they get the idea of the access keys for the Choedan Kal? What if the Ring of Tamrylin is an access key for this sa'angreal? I have always believed that the ring is connected to this lost sa'angreal but considering the size of the Choedan Kal it appears too small to be the sa'angreal itself. But those this mean that this last sa'angreal works for both men and women. Nobody said only men could be raised Tamrylin and it seems stupid to have a throne which operates only for men. It would have to link with both saidin and saidar. And while we're on the point, why do we seem to assume that this sa'angreal rates second place to the Choedan Kal. Maybe it is more powerful. The only reason the Aes Sedai created the Choedan Kal was because they needed two sa'angreal that could draw from saidin and saidar simultaneously. Or possibly, the only reason the forces of light weren't being crushed was because they had an advantage, sort of like the British having radar during the Battle of Britian.  This sa'angreal couldn't be withdraw from the frontline as it would leave them susceptible to a breakthrough.


created: 2007-03-13 21:22:37
subject: <b></b>
body:
Well if this blackboard isn't just full of redundance!<br /><br />Anywho, that theory about the Ring of Tamarlyn being a key for the High Seat as a Sa'angreal does get me thinking. What if the post-breaking White Tower chose the name Amarlyn Seat to preserve the link between the ring and the throne?<br /><br />Clearly the Crystal Throne of the Seanchan is a Ter'angreal, and unless something can be a Sa'angreal AND a Ter'angreal, this theory would have to be 100% wrong


created: 2001-09-04 19:37:42
subject: <b>Nifty nifty</b>
body:
You got something here I do believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 22:25:58
subject: <b>could be right....</b>
body:
nice theory....only point of dispute is relatively minor-the statement that <b>all</b> WOT characters have had previous lives...RJ has stated in an interview that is not the case, only certain significant ones are reborn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 11:37:49
subject: <b>I like this one</b>
body:
As for your Warder comment, I think it is quite likely that Siuan will bond Gareth Bryne as her Warder.  I also think it will become likely that Aes Sedai will actually get married every once in a while from now on, with Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, around.  Not to mention the Asha'man....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 21:54:53
subject: <b>Bryne a warder?</b>
body:
Being a great captain or leader is not synonym of being a warder or a warrior(take Demandred's case). The rest of your theory is interesting though.


created: 2002-10-04 17:52:11
subject: <b>Perhaps...</b>
body:
There are many heros from the past, bound to the Wheel, turned out again and again to live their lives of fame.  Birgitte and Gaidal for example.  Anyhow, who is to say that there are not other heros to come...that may be bound to Wheel for the 1st or 2nd time?  Perhaps Siuan and Gareth ARE Anselan and Barashelle born again?  And perhaps they are fated to always be together as Birgitte and Gaidal are, forever being spun out into the pattern for infinity...  Surely there will be many new heros from this age that will be remembered in the legends and stories of the future ages...<br /><br />Cassandra <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />Tallanvor is my hero!


created: 2003-01-16 10:45:49
subject: <b>Perhaps not....</b>
body:
I like the theory and it is very plausible.  Great work!<br /><br />In response to Cassandra's statements, I personally don't believe that there are any <i>new</i> heros that are bound to the horn.  Rather they are new incarnations of the same set of heros.  The one main point that is repeated in every book and every RJ interview is that everything in the WOT world is cyclic; everything repeats, nothing is new.  Every major thing that is happening has happened before and will happen again, forever.  The details change (names, faces, minor events) but the story remains the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 19:49:17
subject: <b>Nicely done</b>
body:
I think it's for sure that the oath road increases aging. As for whether or not it increases with each oath, well we can't really tell that until we see the long term effect of life on people with more or less oaths.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 02:26:50
subject: <b>Seems likely</b>
body:
Nice theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Now, I have vague memories of two things being indicated earlier in the series (can anyone confirm them?):<br /><br />#1: Earlier Aes Sedai (after Breaking, before now, such times as during Trolloc Wars and so on) lived longer than modern Aes Sedai.<br /><br />#2: After Breaking, the Aes Sedai only took one Oath (I think it was the one about weapons, right?),the two others came later, one by one, I think.<br /><br />Now, to the conclusion, if those two points are correct. More Oaths, faster aging, so they would support the theory.<br /><br />Another question: is it possible that Oaths lessen the strenght of a channeler if they are taken before she has reached her final potential? The potential is reached by channeling, and Aes Sedai Wannabes in training don't channel all that much - novices not at all without permission, and Accepted too aren't supposed to use Saidar all that much.<br /><br />-Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 13:09:11
subject: <b>My vote</b>
body:
My vote is for Euler's #, e.<br /><br />No reason though, just a cool #.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 17:38:49
subject: <b>Probably true, but...</b>
body:
This would explain everything about Aes Sedai, except Cadsuane. She probably took the oath somewhere around 730-740 NE (since she was born in 705 NE). But she has lived longer than all the other sisters who took the oath in the same time-period that she did. BUT, it is mentioned in CoS that Cadsuane was the strongest channeler the Tower had had for 1000 years.<br />So I think that how long you live depends on how much of the One Power you can channel and not how long the Oath Rod has been used.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 18:03:56
subject: <b>Regarding Cadsuane</b>
body:
We know for sure that channelers Slow and that this depends on strength (since Elayne says it does, in CoS). Nothing I say in this theory neglects that fact. What I mean is that a non-Oath Rod channeler Slows by some amount. Say that it takes some 10 or 12 years for a channeler to &quot;age&quot; one year (look one year older). What happens with the Oath Rod is that this figure is divided by some number roughly between 2.5 and 3 (which only depends on the Oath Rod used, and nothing else), which I also mentions in the theory. It takes a greater number of years to age one, for a strong channeler than a weak, so the same applies after taking the Oaths. Therefore it's just natural that Cadsuane, who is so old, is also the strongest Aes Sedai for a very long time.<br /><br />I'll soon present a full theory on the Slowing too. It's of course not certain I'm right, but it still fits the facts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 18:29:08
subject: <b>Euler's number</b>
body:
Someone who likes maths like me! <br /><br />E^iPi=-1<br /><br />Euler, yes?<br /><br />Have you ever tried to integrate x^x? It's rather impossible but the minimum is e^-1. I did it by Simpsons Rule and got about 0.78 if I remember.<br /><br />OK, I've just freaked everyone out! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />On the actual theory, possibly e (2.81) is a better number because it ties in with half-lives. If so then what about this formula?<br /><br />L=Lo e^-kS<br /><br />Where Lo=Original lifespan<br />L=New lifespan<br />k=1/3<br />S=Oaths sworn<br /><br />Now all we need is something to find the original life span. I have a rather interesting link with a OP scaling system on it.......<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 19:33:49
subject: <b>Regarding formula</b>
body:
But that would mean that the whole lifespan is changed by the Oath Rod, and I don't think so. I rather think that the Rod makes you age faster while you're bound to it. While e can always be nice to play with, it's hardly what comes to mind naturally when trying to make a model over the Slowing.<br /><br />I'll argue for this following model for an Aes Sedai who starts Slowing at the age of Sa and takes her three Oaths at the age of So:<br /><br />If So&lt;=Sa, L=Sa+(s/O) * (N-Sa)<br />If So&gt;Sa, L=Sa+s * (So-Sa)+(s/O) * (N-So)<br /><br />Where <br />L is her Life Span<br />N is the age at which she would die, had she notbeen able to channel<br />s is her natural Slowing factor (dependent of strength in OP)<br />O is the Oath Rod koefficient, which in this Theory is (squareroot of 2 )^S (S=Oaths sworn), but could be almost anything roughly between 2,5 and 3.<br /><br />But when you say it, you might be right about e working better, so that<br />O=e^kS (k=1/3 and S the number of Oaths)<br />It would tighten up that part significantly.<br /><br />Hm. Am I taking this too seriously... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 04:40:54
subject: <b>where did 2^1/2 come from?</b>
body:
First i think we need some solid data... In New Spring Cadsuane says that she is the oldest Aes Sedai, and she is 295 (i think). Now AS in the AoL lived up to 700, according to the guide. Probably a lot of this had to do with the fact that they had better general living conditions... the average lifespan for a non-channel was over 100. Assuming a max of 700, <br /><br />300 = x^3*700, where x is the diminishing factor per oath, cubed because we have 3 oaths. x = .754, call it 3/4<br /><br />There's no need to involve e here, if you are dealing with exponential formulas. The base e can be used just as well as any other number, but it is harder to see. For example, it's easy to understand that each oath diminishes your life by 75%. But by a factor of e^-2.87? That's impossible to understand without a calculator nearby. <br /><br />Also, if you're talking about halflives, it's a lot easier to say %remain = x<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />1/2)^t, as opposed to having <br />% = x*e^-0.693*t<br /><br />Moridin 2000, what do you mean integral of x^x is 0.78? x^x tends to infinity as x does... I'd agree the minimum is 1/e though...


created: 2001-09-06 05:07:34
subject: <b>Percentage of lifespan</b>
body:
It still doesn't work unless introducing some strange, balefire-like property of the Oath Rod, and frankly, that seems unlikely...<br /><br />What I mean is that for the first 20-25 years, a female channeler doesn't slow at all and she could take the Oaths at any time after she starts channeling. For the Oath Rod life span to only depend on the Non-Oath-Rod lifespan, the Oath Rod would have to make up for the &quot;lost time&quot;, when the channeler wasn't bound by it. Unlikely.<br /><br />And regarding (0.75)^3<br />Well, I'd say that'd work about as well as the other examples, but we have really nothing pointing to one or the other. Some people simply like e <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 11:36:41
subject: <b>I concur with Kenco</b>
body:
Yeah, I just used that formula because it was similar to the one for decaying radioactive material. If k is always constant then I suppose it can be combined.<br /><br />The x^x thng. Forgot to mention it was between 0 and 1. Oooops! A tad important that.<br /><br />Kenco's formula would be nicer to look at. <br /><br />But I agree with Yubi in that we need to factor in both the age at which the slowing starts and the age that the Oaths are taken.<br /><br />Maybe someone could do another theory on this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 11:53:25
subject: <b>To Moridin2000</b>
body:
Well, the formula I presented would do nicely. It's impossible to add something regarding when the channeling begins since it's simply a genetic trait, and is not dependent on strength in OP or anything we know about. The same goes for when the Oaths are taken, since it simply differs between different channelers, without depending on anything in particular. And the Oath Rod koefficient is simply not exactly known, although it fits best being between 2.5 and 3.<br /><br />I'm writing this as a seperate theory on the Slowing, and I'll submit it this weekend or so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 04:44:04
subject: <b>x^x...</b>
body:
I have this program i made that manually integrates any function...<br />using 100 000 rectangles, the area is 0.783430510832945<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-11 16:22:33
subject: <b>Just a Thought</b>
body:
If it is, in fact, the Oath Rod that causes you to age quicker (we have some weak support for this in the fact that Verin's method (and perhaps all methods) of compulsion causes the compulsed to die quicker and I think that an Oath Rod is kind of like self imposed compulsion) than it was not created as an extra punishment, but simply a side effect. In effect, the Oaths force you into things against your will. I think that it is just the extra stress that the psyche is placed under.<br /><br />Another possibility is that the Oath Rods don't cause you to die any faster and that its just a matter of strength in the power.  So the more power that flows through you, the longer you live. (If thats true, what would using a sa'angreal all the time do for your life span? Hmmm...) I'm pretty sure that all the channelers we have met that were old have been strong in the power. I believe Mesaana said she was 300 years old before being sealed in the bore and was accounted to be in her middle years. But she is also at least twice as powerfull as alot of the frail Aes Sedai that are around in this day and age.  If you remember, Nyneave is already Slowing and she's only been channeling consciously for a couple of years. (That's kind of sad for her unless Lan learns he can channel. The same goes for Rand and Min. I'll bet that in the Age of Legends, only Aes Sedai married. But that a whole diferent subject. Since men are generally stronger in the power, I wonder if they live longer as well? Now that the taint is clean, and if he survives Tarmon Gaidon, how long will he live? A thouand  years?)<br /><br />Another possiblity is that a combination of the two is possible. That is, the Oath Rods cause you to die quicker than usual and strength in the Power causes you to live longer. That is probably the case. Well, anyway, that was long.


created: 2001-09-11 18:16:04
subject: <b>Some clarification.</b>
body:
It's almost fully certain by now that Slowing works on all channelers and that the Oath Rod shortens the life span of channelers, although it will still be longer than for a non-channeler. No Aes Sedai, despite strength, has become older than 300, while Kins women such as Reanne is older than 400 while weaker than several Aes Sedai, such as Cadsuane. We also know that all female channelers start slowing between the ages of 20 and 25 (with possibly some exceptions) and that the exact age the Slowing begins is NOT determined by strength in the OP (but probably some random or genetic effect). This, as well as the fact that stronger (in the OP) women Slow more than weaker, is said by Elayne in aCOS.<br /><br />If the Oath Rod was made to be a binder, I don't see why it would make more sense that the faster aging is a side-effect rather than a deliberate feature. If it was made for other purposes, it's more likely it's a side-effect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 12:08:08
subject: <b>a weird possibility</b>
body:
Is it possible that some aes seidai might have taken only one oath.  Aes Seidai like say, Vernin, or Cadsuame!!<br />Maybe they each took an oath like: I will fight the shadow with all of my power for as ling as i live!  This would explain why cadsuame is so old and vernin could be older than we think.  This also is why these two seem to have there own agendas and y they appear to be able to lie in vernin's case, or come very close to lying.  They might have taken the oaths at separate times, so they don't know about each other.  Most aes sedai would never attempt murder unless they were black aja, but vernin almost piosoned cadsuane and we know that neither of them is black.  A single oath to fight the dark one anyway possible could explain that willingness to commit to murder if need be!<br /><br /><br /><br />the brain-dead master of sleep!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-06 16:23:52
subject: <b>I like your theory...</b>
body:
But it find it ironic that Aes Sedai age faster, but still remain ageless!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Isabel <br />-Is determined to live up to her Canadian heritage...PARTY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Will read every WoT book Jordan spits out, even if they get worse. So there.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 12:51:09
subject: <b>While this pales in comparison to complex formulas ...</b>
body:
Before I read this theory, I was thinking that the number of oaths increases the decrease in lifespan. (you know what I mean) Perhaps it does have to do with slowing, and that's why some Aes Sedai (like Cadsuane) live a few (25-50) years longer than the prescribed 300. <br /><br />However, I was thinking that each oath cut the life span by 100 years, rather than the square root, e or pi of some number. Maybe it's because I didn't take any higher math than Business Calc (Comm majors don't have to know integrals), but I think it's a way simpler explanation. But I really admire the way everyone else came up with a formula I didn't understand to explain oath rod slowing; I just can't duplicate it.<br /><br />Look at it this way: the average lifespan of a non-bound channeller (i.e. the Kin, AoL AS) appears to be around 600. This is further proven by the fact that most of the Forsaken look middle age at 300. So, it just happens to be that 100*3=300 or half a channeller's life.<br /><br />Recap on rambling: My theory is that each oath on the oath rod/binder shortens a channeller's life by 100 years (think about prison sentences ... effectively, those shorten your life by 10-30 years or even the rest of a convict's life). It just happens to be coincidence that the modern AS chose three oaths, effectively cutting their life in half. (This also goes along with the &quot;Verin and Cadsuane only took one oath&quot; post. Maybe they'll live to be 500!)<br /><br />Now, what about all those AS running around with an extra oath ... will they only live to be 200? Only time will tell.


created: 2001-09-04 19:51:45
subject: <b>Well that's a new thought there</b>
body:
I don't think I ever saw anyone else say as much thus far. Good job there matey.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 20:31:20
subject: <b>Good Point...</b>
body:
I hadn't ever really thought about it in those terms. You're probably right that extremely high level angreal and sa'angreal would need huge circles of both male and female channelers. <br /><br />However, I think that some smaller angreal are probably attainable for Elayne now once she figures out how. I think that somewhere it mentions that the making of angreal is a Talent, albeit a Talent no Aes Sedai has had in 3000 years. The reason that the Forsaken haven't been sitting around churning out objects of Power is that none of them has the Talent, just as none of them has the Fortelling or is a Dreamer (they can all use Tel'aran'rhiod, but none has dreams that fortell the future (that we know of, of course)).<br /><br />Perhaps any channeler could make an angreal with a large enough circle, but one with the Talent could do it with a much smaller circle, or by herself? Perhaps Elayne will never learn to do more than make more ter'angreal. I certainly agree that we won't see any new sa'angreal on the level of Callandor or the Choeden Kal. But today's Aes Sedai are among the weakest channelers around. In the last couple books, we've come across several new organizations of Channeling women, all of whom tend to be much more powerful than the Aes Sedai (the Kin, the Windfinders, etc.). Either RJ is planning to demote the current Aes Sedai to third-class citizenship among female channelers for the light, or they are going to need a whole buttload of angreal to bring them up to par.<br /><br />Anyway, you made a great point, and it's well worth thinking about. Thanks.


created: 2001-09-04 21:55:37
subject: <b>not to be a pill, but...</b>
body:
well, your theory honestly seems very logical if you ask me, but I think it overlooks one critical aspect of these <br />books:<br /><br />dramatic liscence (i.e. logic be damned)<br /><br />I think that after some of the first few books, these events would have been illogical, but very dramatic<br /><br />1.  Rand can CHANNEL?!<br /><br />2. Rand is the DRAGON?!<br /><br />3. Rand is AIEL?!<br /><br />4.  Rand has THREE women?!<br /><br />And probably too many others to mention<br /><br />I'm really not trying to discredit you or your theory, but in fiction, especially SF, logic is somewhat joyously tossed<br />to the four winds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 10:50:58
subject: <b>They can't make angreal but she can...</b>
body:
There is a particular Talent that is needed to make angreal and other objects of the One Power.  It is called Making and it has been lost for thousands of years.  Elayne can and will eventually make angreal because she has that Talent.  None of the Forsaken have the Talent.  I think Moggy once said that she was not a Maker and really could not explain how Angreal were made.  I think the Three Oaths prevents the creation of angreal and other similiar objects and that is why no one has been able to manifest the Talent.  If Elayne takes the Three Oaths she will be bound against making any object that could be used for one human to kill another.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dragon7<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Seventh Prince of the Wyrmkin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 10:55:36
subject: <b>Dragon7</b>
body:
I disagree with you on the last point, about the Three Oaths making it impossible to create an angreal. Of course an angreal <i>can</i> be used to kill, but if you start to reason like that, nearly anything can be used to kill. Let's take the ter'angreal Elayne's been making for example: if you drop those from high enough and they hit someone on the head, he/she is dead too. That just to say that an angreal is not what is meant by the not making a mortal weapon oath.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 13:04:51
subject: <b>Good idea, flawed logic</b>
body:
I like you idea that the strength if a(n) (sa')angreal is proportional to the amount of power used to make it.  <br /><br />However, the fact that no Chosen have made them does not mean that they are hard to make.  None of the Chosen have made a ter'angreal either, but they are relatively easy to make (if you have the skill).<br /><br />Also, what if Elayne made a sa'agreal while using a sa'angreal, like the CK?  Then she would have used more power than any 72 channelers out there.  Then couldn't she make a slightly less powerful sa'angreal on her own?<br /><br />Anyway, good idea.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 00:40:40
subject: <b>Why Elayne won't make ter'angreal either</b>
body:
Remember, Elayene is the first to make a ter'angreal - all the reasons you give for not being able to make angreal apply to not making ter'angreal, but now we no this isn't the case.<br /><br />Personally, I believe angreal and sa'angreal will require the death of a channeller - I have no evidence of course.


created: 2001-09-06 22:34:25
subject: <b>Saidin/Saidar</b>
body:
If you need a circle to make angreal/sa'angreal, then you are weaving both saidin and saidar into it. Since all the known angreal/sa'angreal are usable by only one gender, that would seem to indicate that only one half of the Power was poured into it-- unless sa'/angreal get their power from the joining of saidin/saidar. That still doesn't explain how they are usable by only one gender...


created: 2001-09-07 21:57:38
subject: <b>The Weapon Oath</b>
body:
The oath taken on the rod is &quot;to make no weapon with which one man may kill another.&quot;  This leaves a lot of loopholes.  Siuan at one point makes a dagger from air.  Verin and Alanna make power catapults to allow men to kill Trollocs.  An angreal is less of a weapon than either of these.  I'm just pointing out that that oath could have no bearing on the creation of angreal as men cannot use it.<br /><br />Thanks for input on my theory.


created: 2001-09-09 22:45:36
subject: <b>B*mumble*t</b>
body:
Elayne has Talent. That means she can do things that other people can't (or can't do as well- compare Moggie and Lanfear in TAR).<br /><br />Circles provide compararatively more OP to create things with, as do using *greal (which goes back to the angreal=computers post I made on the 'sticks &amp; stones' theory). Therefore, a circle lead by Elayne could make just about anything she damn well wanted. The more 'Forsaken class' channelers are involved, the more powerful the *greal is going to be. The more *greal are used in the construction, the more powerful the resulting *greal will be.<br /><br />I'd guess that a male leading a circle would create male *greal while Elayne leading would create female *greal. Theoretically, Elayne might be able to make Ter'angreal that are DIY *greal creators, but that's probably stretching things a little...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 20:07:45
subject: <b>circles</b>
body:
I think there's zero chance that Elayne won't make angreal. RJ keeps bringing it up in the form of Elayne mentioning &quot;maybe she can learn to make angreal,&quot; etc. I also think it's obvious it will require men and women linking, safely possible now that saidin is cleansed. As RJ has stated variously, &quot;The greatest feats of the Power were accomplished with men and women working together.&quot;


created: 2001-11-06 23:02:24
subject: <b>I think she will...</b>
body:
I just wanted to agree and say that apparently making angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal is a Talent, and perhaps a rarer one at that. I disagree with the comment about a channeler dying to make a *angreal... If that were the case there would be a lot less of them. It has been indicated that they were quite common in the AOL, and that some may even have been made for certain people. It's probably just more complicated to make angreal and sa'angreal than ter'angreal. <br /><br />PS- Does anyone remember when Elayne was talking about *angreal and matrices and what she said?? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 08:00:32
subject: <b>Angreals</b>
body:
It is mentioned during early books of serie that male and woman linked are about 10 times stronger than he/she alone, so another part of OP seems to make user of another part stronger. So it is possible that females can only make Saidin angreals and males only Saidar angreals. That would explain why AS and Forsaken don't make any angreals anymore.


created: 2002-02-14 19:05:31
subject: <b>not enough data.</b>
body:
I don't think we have enough information.  None of the active characters know how to do it, or even know the theory behind it.  This makes it rather difficult for the reader (us) to figure it out.<br /><br />I'm not sure how prevalant angreal were in the Age of Legends.  It seems to me that if all it took was a good size circle &amp; someone with the Talent to lead it, they'd have churned them out by the hundreds - especially considering the circumstances (War of Power . . .)  And with that kind of mass production, there'd be a lot more of 'em kicking around now.<br /><br />I think that it must have taken some sort of sacrifice to produce one - whether it is as extreme as someone's death, I don't know.  Going with that theory, one might say that each angreal's personality is a representation of the person who sacrificed themselves to create it.  In other words, the dude that died to create Callandor was an insane power-junkie, the chick that bit it in order to make the angreal Lanfear &amp; Moiraine fought over had a thing for bondage, etc.  And the degree of amplification the angreal allows is just a function of the amount of One Power used in it's creation.<br /><br />Perhaps the creation of an angreal or sa'angreal was an Aes Sedai's way of leaving the world.  After 4 or 5 hundred years, you decide you've had just about enough, and you head into retirement (the Light) by sacrificing your life to make an angreal.  Or maybe the creation process causes you to burn out.  Either of those would certainly explain the limited numbers.  I don't know - just rambling now.<br /><br />Another thing to consider:<br />What makes male angreal more rare than female?  Are they actually harder to make?  Or are they just harder to find - a result of female Aes Sedai destroying them after saidin became tainted.


created: 2002-04-20 20:31:52
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
Somehow I bet that creating angrel and sa'angreal requires some sort of technology. The reason I think this is because of how the CK was made. They had to build it far away in a remote location b/c of some sort of frequency's or soemthing. (read either the big white book or The Strike at Shayol Ghul to clarify this). If all it required were large amounts of channelers and maybe a sacrifice, they coulda done it in any city or whatever. Somehow I think there is some prerequiste of technology to make really strong angreal and sa'angreal. Maybe making little angreal doens't require tech. I think that maybe the bigies do, so i suppose they won't be able to make any more CK's or w/e. That's just my thoughts<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 05:05:15
subject: <b>Angreal and binding</b>
body:
I like the idea that AS swearing the oaths has prevented the construction of angreal and perhaps even terangreal in the past.  After all, binding was used to limit criminals from continuing to commit their criminal acts.  I draw that from one of the Chosen thinking about the modern AS binding themseleves like criminals, and how it halves their lifespans, etc.  So, if a criminal was to be bound against criminal activity, and if doing so has such a serious repercussion as halving the criminals' lifespan, might there not also be a limit preventing the criminal from creating tools such as any *greal which might make them more dangerous?<br />I like the idea it takes a certain Talent to create angreal and sa'angreal, but i'm not so sure.  Traveling was considered a Talent in the early books, but it seems anyone with the necessary strength can Travel.  Also, didn't we catch a glimpse of the circle used to make Callandor, back when Rand went through his ordeal in Rhuidean?  That certainly required a circle to make, and i think it was lead by a woman, as none of the AS of the time would have allowed a possibly mad male control of the bond.  <br />Another related question, though, is why are the Chosen resigned to not having access to shocklances, etc.  Why can't they make such weapons?  If making is a talent, then this question is answered.  If not, then what prevents Moridin as Nae'blis from commanding the remaining Chosen to form the circle required to make such weapons?  <br />  And one more thing, why wasn't Osan'gar used to create new forms of shadowspawn????  why not have him make more Gholam, if they're so dangerous?  It seems likely that such things almost certainly required some form of technology, but unless i'm mistaken, i thought such tech would've been ter'angreal of some description.  So, where are these ter'angreal?  Have they all been destroyed, or are some of the t*greal that have burned women out in the WT when they were tested designed to only be used by men, and therefore dangerous for any woman to try to use??  Is a Gholam-making t*greal sitting in the WT, just waiting for one of the Chosen to find it?  Or something worse??<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Consciousness is a symptom of disease <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />Baphomet23 who thinks Moridin is Taim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 04:03:59
subject: <b>Elayne won't; but someone will</b>
body:
I think someone will certainly make an angreal; but it won't be Elayne.  RJ is full of examples of our favorite characters being surpassed by someone they've taught or just met.  How many channelers are potentially stronger now than Nynaeve?  At least 4.  Plus Elayne is going to be so busy becoming Queen, avoiding/escaping her Darkfriend personal bodyguard Captain, giving birth to twins, etc...; she has no time (in terms of character development) for a significant breakthrough like making Angreal.  In fact I would be disappointed if RJ through that in to an already jumbled character.


created: 2002-09-17 23:48:47
subject: <b>Seanchan and *greal</b>
body:
Wait a minute.  Aren't the Seanchan mass producing *greal in order to keep their channeller's under control?<br /><br />I agree that some kind of Talent is needed to produce *greal, and Elayne obviously has this, but all the theories about possible death, doom and destruction to the makers seems a bit far fetched.  It doesn't seem to have affected the Seanchan.  Having said that, they don't regard the lives of channeller's very highly.<br /><br />I believe that *greal are incredibly difficult to make but require not only a Talent, but high intelligence and lots of study (particularly in the Age of Legends).  If none of the Chosen studied how to make them (and who knows, it might have been 150 years worth of study before you were allowed to have a go at it) then they wouldn't even know where to start.


created: 2003-01-04 14:59:48
subject: <b>good point...</b>
body:
but the reason Elayne has not tried to make any angreal or sa'angreal is because she has not had enough time to study any. she found 3 angreal, but has been too busy to study it.<br /><br />Also, i think it says somewhere in the books that the Forsaken do not have the Talent for making any angreal, sa'angreal, or ter'angreal. but, i could be wrong....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Bodyguard to the Creator, Franco Columbo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Destroyer of Trollocs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of Callandor's twin brother, Kallandor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Seeier of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> The Divine Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Couchrunning! It'll move you.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-03 02:06:03
subject: <b>hmmmm thoughts</b>
body:
Also, didn't we catch a glimpse of the circle used to make Callandor, back when Rand went through his ordeal in Rhuidean? That certainly required a circle to make, and i think it was lead by a woman, as none of the AS of the time would have allowed a possibly mad male control of the bond. <br /><br />if you read that again i am pretty sure that the AS, says to send for 2 males who are young and unaffected yet.<br /><br />like someone else said the Seanchean are producing ter'angreal for thier controling the power. and when it was discovered Egwene MAY be able to do this, they were going to put her on a ship and send her back to Seanchean to make more.<br /><br />i think that it is just a rare Talent that is not based on strength like traveling and such, and that no AS in the tower knew how to do it, so it was lost.


created: 2003-04-28 19:31:30
subject: <b>A comment on Dragon7's part...</b>
body:
Thats a legitmate way to look at it, but i have to disagree that if she swore the oaths she would be bound against it because the oaths affect you based on your interrprutaion of what you're doing and whether you beleive its against the oaths or not, or in this case if it will endanger a life. Elayne thinks this is so cool that she will be able to make these that she wouldn't beleive strongly enough it was a threat for it to inhibite her ability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-10 20:07:32
subject: <b>I agree, its a talent</b>
body:
I'm going to have to agree here that making them is a talent and that is why noone else has been able to do it. As for people dieing to make them? I don't see that happening. I think something of that magnitude (dieing to make them) would have been remembered at least a little bit from the Age of Legends.


created: 2005-04-16 23:52:26
subject: <b>IT's a talent</b>
body:
It took Elayne a long time to figure out how to make ter'angreal. Also she still hasn't been able to perfect them. She said that she would need to study an angreal to make one. Also i think that she would need to get better becasue she would not want to make an imperfect one like Callandor. The forsaken probably do not have this talent for making angreal. It is probably more rare than having strength in all five powers. Much more rare


created: 2001-10-21 20:06:20
subject: <b>A Big Book</b>
body:
The book &quot;The World Of Robert Jordans The Wheel Of Time&quot; tells us exactly what the wheel is and how it works.  Its perhaps easier to see it as a loom, spinning the lace the pattern is made of.  It does say that the pattern changes to a varying degree with each spinning of the wheel.


created: 2002-09-23 14:29:17
subject: <b>Dark One = Creator ?</b>
body:
I kinda like your idea of an alternating rule between the DO and the Creator. Indeed, Ishamael tells several times to Rand that he had fought under the DO's banner as often as under the Creator's, which would imply that the Tarmon Gai'don was lead against the Creator at these times (unless I'm badly mistaken).It might mean that the DO was considered as the Creator in other turnings of the Wheel. Which, in fact, he was, as it is said that &quot;the Dark One will reshape the entire Wheel to his own image&quot;. So, is the DO really really evil ? Hmm ? He sure is the antithesis of the Creator, but there is a lot of pain and suffering in the world that we know. Who could say it'd be worse in a world governed by the DO ? All depends of the viewer (forgive me if it isn't a correct construction, but I'm french, and you know what I mean, don't you ?) : during the rule of the DO, people must have struggled as hard to keep the Creator escaping from his prison as they do now fihting the DO. Please forgive me for those blasphematory words... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for your analogy between the turning of the Wheel and the seasons, I agree entirely with you as well. Always the same order, always the same general events, but not twice in the same way.


created: 2002-12-17 03:36:40
subject: <b>Good one...</b>
body:
This is certainly the way I've thought of the Wheel of Time.  In fact, I've always thought other people who thought differently were nuts.  However, the above comment about sealing the Creator I think is a bit off.  The Creator created the Wheel of Time, and the DO is attempting to break the Wheel, and probably has been for some time.  We know the catechism, the Creator bound the DO at the creation of the world.  Which means in each turning of the Wheel, in the Second Age, over and over and over, the DO's prison was bored into or broken or...whatever.  <br /><br />True, heroes fought against each other, but Rand says he never served <i>Shai'tan</i> and I believe that.  When we read quotes from the Chronicles of the Dragon from the <i>Fourth</i> Age, that means the Dragon will come again and will be prophesied.  Always as an agent of the Light.<br /><br />What I think is even more interesting is when did the Creator give up on his creation?   And in the coming Ages, does he intervene?  Or has he given up on creation in every Age?  The Wheel will hit similar bumps, but never exactly the same.  But if the Wheel is broken...will time move at all?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Josh <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark,<br />and the great sword of justice defend us.<br />Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.<br />- from <i>Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-12 12:56:24
subject: <b>Comments of Belmazon</b>
body:
First off Belmazon knows much more than rand about the past he was there and rand has no real memories from that time.  No Belmazon might be lying to him that we don't know.  However he did say that rand had fought on the side of the shadow and there does seem to be an effort especially in the begining to turn rand to the shadow perhaps in some turnings he was turned.  The idea that the wheel will in someway be broken again come from comments of Belmazon where he tells rand that this turning is different that here the issue will be decided for once and all, again he might not know what he is talking about or he might be lying he was the philosopher and he was quite powerful so I'm inclined to believe him guess we just have to RAFO.


created: 2004-07-16 21:59:38
subject: <b>(applause)</b>
body:
Well, this was written years ago but I still feel the need to send some Kudos your way. The idea that our present mordern-day world is both the past and the future of Randland never quite hit it off with me. Didn't fit in with the ideas of ecological or sociological evolution. Your theory works, though. Any historian could tell you that history is bound to repeat itself. Doesn't mean that we'll get to see another Napoleon at another place called Waterloo, or that we send another Neil Armstrong up to the moon to plant another American flag in a crater (that would be an interesting scenario--Uhhhh....Houston, we have a problem. (What's wrong, Neil?) You're not gonna believe this, but there's already an American flag up here...)<br /><br />It makes far more sense to say that humans are idiots and that human nature being what it is, we will never learn from our mistakes. Just keep repeating them until we've drilled fifty thousand Bores and Broken the world a couple thousand more than that. Ce la vie.<br /><br />Good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>~<font color="#3300CC">Ran</font><font color="#0066FF">do</font><font color="#99CCFF">m</font> <font color="#0066FF">Dr</font><font color="#0000CC">eam</font>~<br /><font color="#000066">Question everything.</font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-18 00:13:54
subject: <b>Side note</b>
body:
Following this line of thought brought me to an interesting idea. There must have been times in the past when the female half of the power was the one to be tainted. This leads to another thought too. Has the dragon been male Every time? There is some limited evidence for this. In that one of the male forsaken was brought back as a woman. What can be Done on purpose can also happen naturally. It may be rare but given infinite turnings of the wheel to work with....who knows.


created: 2007-06-27 06:20:50
subject: <b>Hmmm..</b>
body:
This might be why a story was written about this age, this is a rare age where the dragon is male <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-05-04 17:57:10
subject: <b>Agree, but Disagree</b>
body:
Ok, so yes I whole heartedly agree with you.  However, I believe that all MAJOR events have the same outcome, or the wheel would diverge to much.  For instance, we have a car wheel.  You make small twitches and corrections, however if you swerve to say avoid a turtle you are liable to go into the dirt, which is a different type of road, or in the case of the WoT, an antirely different way of making the pattern.


created: 2001-09-05 11:35:22
subject: <b>It's Moridin, plain and simple</b>
body:
Slayer's master is Moridin.   Moridin even says so in Winter's Heart when he speaks about sending Slayer out to kill Padan Fain.  This also fits in with Slayer speculating that it is a Chosen (but in fact, Moridin is something different).  Plus, the order to kill Rand goes back to Path of Daggers where the Ashaman were ordered to take him out both by Taim and then Demandred... so the whole, &quot;keep the Dragon Alive&quot; decree has been lifted a long time ago.<br /><br />Keep in mind that as long as Rand does not die by Balefire, the Dark One can bring him back.  Slayer killing Rand or nearly Killing Rand may have pushed Rand over the edge and allowed the Dark One to entice him into coming over to his side.


created: 2001-09-05 13:18:27
subject: <b>It's not Moridin</b>
body:
Moridin has no reason to hide who he is.  Whereas Taim if he's smart, and we know that he is might want to conceal who he is so that the other Forsaken don't know that there is a new guy out there competing for their power.  Personally, I agree with the theory with the evidence we have Taim seems the most likely choice.  Also assuming that Taim is a new Chosen, then he could have easily gotten info on how to contact Slayer from the DO.  One more piece of evidence that wasn't mentioned in the original theory was where the patron went after talking with Slayer, &quot;a snowy forest glade&quot; sounds a lot like the area around the Black Tower.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 18:37:57
subject: <b>Hey, Dragon Forever!</b>
body:
I just saw your theory and had a look. I'm sort of split on the idea. I could think of Taim commanding Isam, but then again why would Taim send him on missions to kill Lords, Ladies and Aes Sedai. Of course he is probably high up on the Darkfriend scale and might have to carry out such tasks, but why give him Slayer then?<br /><br />But, I'd agree that it is a male controlling him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 02:55:13
subject: <b>Hey Moridin! + some replies</b>
body:
Moridin didn't say that he himself gave Slayer the orders to find and kill Fain, he just acknowledged that someone had given the orders.<br /><br />Slayer may have several contracts at any given time, from different people; but the point I was suggesting was that the person Slayer met in WH was Taim, though Taim didn't necessarily give all of Slayer's orders in the past. <br /> <br />However the killings that he's made in the past (Amico and Joiya, Barthanes if you believe that, Ispan and Adeleas if you believe that) can be explained. The three Black Ajah as punishment for being captured, Adeleas as an innocent bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time, and Barthanes for consorting with and doing a task for the hated 'vermin' Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 01:15:27
subject: <b>Just a little sidenote</b>
body:
Well, just wanted to say, you might want to keep in mind the people Slayer was to kill, i.e. Nynaeve and Lan, and whoever sent Slayer to where they were (Far Madding), knew where Lan and Nynaeave where, right? Plus he/she must have a beef against them, and we all know how many people have it in for Nynaeve, most noticeably Moghedien......just a little note for more rumination.....


created: 2001-09-07 21:44:44
subject: <b>I don't know where people get that from</b>
body:
Why do people think that Slayer was after Lan and Nynaeve? He was LUC at the time. LUC is RAND'S UNCLE, whereas ISAM is LAN'S COUSIN. As he was LUC thought he was after his NEPHEW, he was after RAND. Simple as that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 20:06:09
subject: <b>One little flaw,</b>
body:
You say that we can't be sure that Slayers employer in this matter is really one of the Chosen because that's presented as one of his opinions. I'll agree with that, but why then can we be sure that the bad guy is definitely male? Like Raserai said, it could just as easily be a female disguising herself as a man to throw Isam/Luc off the trail. That way if Slayer is cornered about trying to commit the big no no rule, then he'll tell them about a male forsaken calling the hit.<br /><br />   And just on the off chance that SLayer has the yet unrevealed ability to defrentiate betwixt Saidin and Saidar (I doubt, but vaugely possible) then it could still be Aran'gar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 23:17:52
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
I think of all the possibilities, Taim probably makes the most sense, even though he had his own guys after Rand at the same time...why not hedge his bets?  he also has the most convincing argument for hiding himself from Slayer, b/c you get the idea that Slayer wouldn't take kindly to being told to do something by a nonChosen.


created: 2002-11-18 09:13:02
subject: <b>not trying to kill rand</b>
body:
it is my personal opinion that luc/isam is not trying to kill rand at all, but rather Lan and nynaeve.  if i remember right, isn't Isam Lan's uncle?  it seemed obvious to me that the ones killed by isam were warder and aes sedai.  i believe he was looking forward to killing Lan, and Nynaeve, for reasons as yet unknown.<br /><br />as for who is ordering him/them, i believe it's moridin.  we know ishmael wanted nynaeve removed to the aryth ocean because he knew rand whould need her in the future.  he probably still needs her, and who better to remove her than a man who can step out of thin air.<br /><br />why does he mask himself?  who knows. mabye, and this is a long shot, because he is inhabiting Luc's old body, and to show isam/luc it would drive him/them insane, and against the dark one. mabye, who knows. thats my ywo cents on this.


created: 2003-03-01 01:57:46
subject: <b>What???</b>
body:
The Forsaken ARE the Chosen, just depending on whose POV it is.  And since when did RJ not just throw something in when you least expect it?  I'm going to have to say &quot;No&quot; on this one...


created: 2003-08-23 21:23:08
subject: <b>I'm thinking Forsaken...</b>
body:
I have just one problem with Mazrim Taim as Slayer's master. His master's disquise. From the way it is described, it sounds like something out of the AoL, not the current time. I know it's possible for Taim to have learned this, it just doesn't seem likely, unless I'm completely missing something. He would have had to learn it from either the Forsaken or Rand, (or possibly taught himself, but that's not likely) and I don't think Rand taught him. One, we've never seen Rand use something that...fancy, and I'm not sure Rand would have taught Taim something like that anyway. Also, the only person I've seen use a weave like that is Mesaana, which also leads me to believe it is a weave from the AoL, lost to the current time. I don't mean the weaves are similar in appearance, just that most of the disquises used by the &quot;good&quot; guys are just changing minor features--they're simpler.  I don't think he learned it from the Forsaken, because it seems to me that with a few exceptions, they're rather stingy with their knowledge. Mesaana obviously taught Alviarin a few new weaves, and Moghedien was forced to do the same thing. Asmodean was also, but he taught only Rand, as far as I know, and that just brings me back to my first point.<br /><br />It is still very possible it could be Taim; I'm just rather curious as to how he learned that very interesting way of disguising himself.<br /><br />Please let me know if I missed anything, or am just way off.  I don't have time to go back and check all the facts, so comments are welcome.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Queen of Exaggeration, Lady of Confusion, and the <br />     Favored Apprentice to the Dark Librarian<br /><br />&quot;I've made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />.&quot;<br /><br />For me, 'confused' describes a good day.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 18:36:45
subject: <b>response to khayman</b>
body:
isam is not lan's uncle, he's his cousin. and it even says in the book that he had &quot;looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench,&quot; but at the end of the chapter it says &quot;he became Isam&quot; which means he had to have been Luc before. He was after Rand.<br />And yeah I think Taim is Slayer's master since he has the best reason to want disguise and he wants Rand dead anyway.


created: 2004-03-24 13:07:50
subject: <b>Demandred has reasons</b>
body:
Demandred wants &quot;Lews Therin&quot; dead, period.<br /><br />Moridin wants him alive, and is in a position to impress his will on Demandred.<br /><br />Demandred is not really good at taking orders.<br /><br />Demandred is really good and hiding while he's breaking the rules.<br /><br />This is his MO.<br /><br />As for Slayer, he makes it clear that he is not subject to any of the Forsaken.  He answers only to the Big Bad Guy.  The Forsaken have to &quot;hire&quot; him.<br /><br />So Moridin &quot;hired&quot; him to go after Fain, and this faceless guy hired him to do something which he was, well, sort of eager to do.


created: 2004-05-12 06:45:08
subject: <b>MORIDIN AND THIS IS PROOF</b>
body:
Mesaana is absent again?&quot; Moridin said instead of answering. &quot;A pity. She should hear what I have to say.&quot; Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. &quot;Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important,&quot; he murmured. &quot;This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain. <br /><br />


created: 2004-11-21 12:32:37
subject: <b>osan'gar</b>
body:
it could have been and in my opinino was osan'gar. i also believe osan'gar is currently swimming with his genetically altered fishies. my point is don't discount him because Jordan killed him a few chapters later, how would osan'gar know that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 11:42:16
subject: <b>Original Dune was awesome....</b>
body:
... but you can not compare the entire Dune series to the depth of WOT.  The first Dune book is something everyone should read, but after that, I think Herbert got lazy.  The other books do not read half as well and tend to jump around with little substance.  Jordan, on the other hand, seemed to write better as he went along (Lord of Chaos being my personal favorite), until these last 3 books where I think he's lost control a bit (hopefully he'll reign it in).<br /><br />There's no doubt though that Jordan has read some of the Dune series.


created: 2001-09-05 12:29:52
subject: <b>Frank Herbert's books</b>
body:
You are wrong about how many Frank Herbert wrote, he only wrote 6 books (I have them all) and his son with an other author wrote 3 books and there while probably come more books.


created: 2001-09-06 15:56:50
subject: <b>Jordan Has Done His Bit of...Borrowing</b>
body:
I really like the series, don't get me wrong.  I really enjoyed the first 6 books a lot and am waiting for something interesting to happen again, and feel that the level of detail Jordan has put in the books makes something like the Theory Post possible, entertaining and a welcome break from work throughout the day.<br /><br />That having been said, Eye of the World was so much like the Fellowship of the Ring in the beginning (I was thinking &quot;Lan=Aragorn&quot;, &quot;Moiraine=Gandalf&quot;, &quot;Nynaeve is just as irritating as Tom Bombadil&quot;, &quot;these black riders sure sound familiar&quot; ) that I nearly threw it away, as I did the first of the Shannara books for the exact same reason.  And the tone of the books is so much like Frank Herbert that I get uncomfortable from time to time with it.  Sometimes I think &quot;Rand al'Thor IS the Kwisatz Haderach&quot; and maybe his eyes really are &quot;blue on blue&quot;.  And to He Who Comes with the Bong: you need to lay off the weed for just a bit, dude, if you're trying to contrast Jordan with Herbert by saying that &quot;Herbert got lazy&quot; and the later books lacked substance.  Each WOT book starting with Book 7 has been a portion of a real book as far as I'm concerned and each one has been less interesting than the last.<br /><br />If Book 10 is as disappointing as Book 9 was, I'm putting my Jordan books (all hardcover) up for sale on eBay for $.50 plus shipping and handling and forgetting he ever existed.  I'll re-read Tolkien and Dune.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 06:08:09
subject: <b>They are going downhill, aren't they?</b>
body:
I think Book 7 was excellent, but aPoD and WH have been getting bogged down. Hopefully it will pick up. And yes, there are too many similarities with Dune for it to be coincidence. Jordan hasn't really done anything original, but he has put a lot of existing elements of fantasy/sci-fi together very skillfully (Herbert, Tolkien, George Lucas, Tad Williams, Stephen Donaldson etc.) into an excellent series. Don't mess it up now, RJ!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 16:25:12
subject: <b>As if we could do better....</b>
body:
I think a main reason why many people complain about the later books in WOT is that it is hard to pay attention to something for soo long and not have a definitive conclusion.<br /><br />Personally, I think the last 2 books are great. But, I can understand why some complain about them. But think, how many other authors have successfully attained the level of detail that Jordan has? Not many.<br /><br />I think that the WOT would be a little better if it did not have to be marketed as seperate pieces. (now eye of the world is even further divided, ugh, marketing) Then, Jordan would not have to remind the readers of so much  at the begining of each book and pay attention to the incredible events that are unfolding in the WOT. That is what I liked so much about Tolkein, as far as I know the books were not originally broken up into 3 books, but was several different parts of one big masterpiece.<br />Then, we wouldnt have to read lines about failes nose or Perrins beard for the 10th or 11th time.<br /><br />To conclude: give Jordan a chance. It must be difficult to write plot designs out in book 1 that are still unfolding in book 9. <br />


created: 2001-09-07 20:54:07
subject: <b>I agree, Give Jordan a break?</b>
body:
I agree with Folken, give RJ a break.  Not too many have done what he's done.  Plus, don't forget every author out there got some of their stuff from others too.


created: 2001-09-07 20:58:53
subject: <b>i thought 7 was slow...</b>
body:
With PoD and WH picking back up like has been before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 13:34:18
subject: <b>I used to think</b>
body:
that the books were getting slower after LoC(well I guess they still kinda were), but I've changed my mind on being critical about it because of the branching out of all the major characters. Each one has their own &quot;mini-climax&quot; instead of the huge ones we got in books 1-6, when they were all in one group or in two or three groups. Now they are all over the place. At the end of WH we saw the beginning of all the characters starting to come together into one or two large groups again. I'm thinkin' that we are in for some huge, cool endings again like those in the earlier books. The climaxes(sp) will be better at the end of book 10, but I think book 11 will really be something.<br /><br />Amp Ashaman<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Software Analyst <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's clean...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;You are taking your first step into a larger world.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 21:51:51
subject: <b>Let's get something straight.</b>
body:
Number one: Tolkien would never have been considered a master of fantasy had his books come out now. in fact the only reason he is even considered one of the best is because he opened up the genre a little. Also, he has a lukewarm plot at best. Jordan has a plot so much more complex that it has taken three times the amount of books that Tolkien wrote, and is still going on. Jordan also wrote all nine of his books (which even the smallest dwarfs Tolkiens) in the same amount of time that it took Tolkien to write his bland three. I don't know how you can complain that Jordan has stretched out his series with a lot of discription and unnecessary content. Tolkien was a linguist, not a writer, and he takes fifty pages to describe a walk through the forest. As for similarities in Jordan's writing, you can find similarities just about wherever you would like to. Jordan did not rip of the poorly contrived story of Dune, and he openly admitted that the first Hundred or so pages of the Eye of the World were intended to give a Tolkienesque feel. Sure, some of the ideas in other books show an uncanny resemblance to some of Jordan's masterfully written works, but that means little. Often i will make something up like a word, or an idea for a book or movie, only to find out later that the idea has been around for years without my ever knowing about it. Originality is hard to come by these days, even typing in random letters for an e-mail adress will often be unavailable as one due to it's present use. Therefore, it is my belief that to accuse a writer as published as Herbert or Tolkien, of being so blatantly plagiarized by one of such renown as Jordan is riduculous and degrading to Jordan and his true fans everywhere.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-11 10:11:52
subject: <b>Comparisons</b>
body:
I must take issue with several things claimed as if by personal authority in this thread.<br /><br />First off, about comparisons between Jordan and Tolkien. I defy anyone to make a proper comparison between them, since the styles and presentation of the stories is so very different. It is like comparing Da Vinci and Van Gogh, then claiming one to be a better artist than the other. Tolkien paints broadly with bright colors and clean textures, there are very clearcut good and bad characters, there is no question who is honorable and who is wicked, and the story is much lighter overall. Jordan uses many shades, darker tones, and far more blurred boundaries. The extent of detail is much greater. That there are so many discussions of who is good, bad, and otherwise here proves this difference. Noone would ever debate the good or evil nature of the characters in Tolkien.<br /><br />Now about Tolkien in specific. To say that he wouldn't be considered a master of fantasy if his books were first coming out today is very near mindless. If his books were just hitting now, the genre wouldn't have the volume of background that it does now, as a GREAT many bits and pieces taken for granted among all of fantasy are attributable to Tolkien, and a substantial segment of current fantasy owes much to his pioneer work.<br /><br />Jordan himself has referred to Herbert among those fantasy authors who have influenced him. Among the thoughts already expressed in this thread, there are two references in the first Dune book to someone making &quot;a Shaitan's deal&quot;, which is clearly a reference to something like a deal with the devil. But none of this should surprise us, as Jordan has alluded to a great many sources for his work, and for myself, that is part of the attraction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 16:46:40
subject: <b>Dune and WoT</b>
body:
To add and edit seregon's post, Frank Herbert wrote six books; his son Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson wrote a trilogy set before the original six, although as far as I know, the third book in the trilogy has not been published.  After a recent discovery of previously unheard-of notes found in a safe, Herbert and Anderson are planning to write a book continuing the original six, so far known only as &quot;Dune 7&quot;.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Bill Billson, Emporer Grand Admiral of the Elements<br />And Supreme Prophet of the Cosmos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <b> Bill Billson, Emperor Grand Admiral of the Elements </b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />           And Supreme Prophet of the Cosmos          <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 13:00:12
subject: <b>::whistles and waves a flag for Richard Althor::</b>
body:
I have to agree wholeheartedly with him on this. I mean I can understand and appreciate what Tolkien did for the genre, but I can't help but find his writing complete and utter crap. Let's face it, the storyline is so completely and universally linear with unswaying black and whites that a child of 4 could follow it comprehensively. In fact, characters in his books act completely out of character, disregarding their upbringing, station in life, values, etc. soley so that they my act on the side of &quot;good&quot;. Compounded by these points is the fact that he bogged down his story, which I would mind reading otherwise, with such excessive detailation of the setting that you are quite likely to fall asleep before anything really happens. The only really good character to come out of his series is the personage of Gandalf, which is only true because Gandalf seems to be the only one with a thought in his head. It is a common understanding in any writing, regardless of genre, that the scene and setting are not what interests the readers, but the characters and the interactions of the characters are. Its only redeeming value is that modern writers would not be were they are if these first, childish steps were not taken. Now I know most of you are making this face-- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> -- but trust me, I have a good reason for this blasphemious Tolkien-bashing. I am pointing this out so as to show the difference between Tolkien and Jordan. Jordan does go into great detail, but it is what matters--the characters. He articulates the characters eliquintly, making them seem to be more like people, having the same problems and fears and hopes as the rest of us instead of mindless good/evil machines battling one another. He blurs the line wonderfully, making us connect with the characters and enjoy the story a great deal instead of wading through it. <br /><br />(P.S.- Sorry if I offended anyone. Just my views on the subject and I'm in no wat arrogant enough to state them as fact <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Kalme Safiar<br />


created: 2001-10-02 14:38:10
subject: <b>If you don't like it...</b>
body:
i was reading a chat that RJ had a while back where they asked him why some of his characters and plot lines were so similar to tolkien and herbert and about a dozen other fantasists.  his reply was something like this, &quot;the reason that alot of us have similar stories, characters, so on... is because we use similar peoples to base them on.  for instance, my aiel and herbert's fremen derived from the zulu, apache, and (someone else).  also, as for themes and motifs, stories such as good v. evil, prophecized messiahs, dealings with the numbers 3 and 7 and 13, all of it comes up in ALL our literature (as humans) to an extent that it is almost ingrained in us.&quot;  something like that.  anyways, for those of you crying and whining about who wrote what or who stole from who, i got advice for you.  if you love the books, keep reading them.  if you think RJ is stealing from herbert, the bible, and every other fantasist/sci-fi author out there, then f***ing stop reading the books! i believe RJ's following is to the extent that losing the one or two of you won't cramp his lifestyle.  as for the books, COS was kinda slow, but if you think that POD and WH(especially) were slow and lacking in substance, then you really should lose the series.  and for the joker who wants to sell his hardcovers for 50 cents, email me immediately.  i'm definitely your man!


created: 2001-11-19 15:27:43
subject: <b>RE : whistles and waves a flag for Richard Althor</b>
body:
I'm a newbie around these parts, so I'll tread lightly.<br /><br />Has anyone who posted about the loathsome task of reading Tolkien's &quot;crap&quot; read anything other than Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy?  I can't justify calling Tolkein's characters and plot &quot;simple&quot;, unless you mean the dynamic between good and evil.  <br /><br />Sure, Tolkien may use a page to describe the front porch of an inn, or the clouds in the sky.  When he does, it's done with immaculate language and great imagery.  Also note that RJ will use almost a full page to re-describe Rand's retinue, complete with facial expressions, style of armor, and beard tugging of Tairens, etc..  I think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  Hello?  RJ has written 9 books, not including New Spring. I think it's safe to say that RJ is also as long winded, when it comes to the description at the beginning of some chapters.<br /><br />Tolkien wrote enough to fill twelve volumes (that I know of) on the History of Middle Earth, 4 leading up to the events in The Hobbit and LOTR and then 4 more volumes beyond them.  I think you would possibly change your mind a bit when you look at those writings as applied to the LOTR.  Give the man some credit.  The battle against Sauron didn't start when Frodo realized he had one bad ass piece of jewelry and it didn't end when he threw the Ring, along with his finger, into Mount Doom.  <br /><br />It isn't a simple four book series.  The post fairly shouts to me that you haven't read anything else of his.  If that's not so, please accept my most humble newbie apology and the assertion that this, like your post, is my opinion.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I love RJ.  I've been hooked for a long long time, but I was raised on Tolkein and still love him. But you won't find me logged in to a Tolkien fan site.  RJ is dynamic, giving us material to mull over, driving us to post stuff like this.<br /><br />I hope I didn't make anyone mad my first time out.  I've seen what happens to the new kid, be gentle...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And of course Herbert read Tolkien.  Who hasn't?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-08 19:39:01
subject: <b>All books are alike</b>
body:
This is the first time I have ever responded to the theory post and only because I feel that there is one element everyone is missing.  In order to appreciate any of the great series', i.e. LOTR, Dune or WOT maybe we could all benefit from reading a great book that explains hero stories throughout history.  Dr. Joseph Campbell wrote back in the '20s a book titled &quot;Hero with a Thousand Faces.&quot;  In it, he draws similarities from ancient Egyptian mythologies to the Bible to the great epics of Norse and Britain literature.  (He includes the rest of the continets as well)  I think that by reading &quot;Hero&quot; we will all agree that there are no rip-offs, just archetypes our favorite authors feel comfortable identifying in stories and personalizing them.  I am not trying to give a book review but for those who have responded to this theory and for the original composer of this theory, it would be a great addition to your collections while you are waiting for future books to come.


created: 2002-02-06 12:54:59
subject: <b>Mahdi??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
The Mahdi is the Seeker for the Tinkers.  Duh.  I think that Jordan saw that his desert people were going to be just like all the other desert people and decided to throw out his respects, like any good author who builds upon what others founded.  He has obvious references to Tolkien (who kinda started fantasy as a big thing, but still sucks to read.), why wouldn't he throw out props to Herbert?  I think you're all being a bit uptight about this whole thing.  I bet if you asked Jordan, when this is all said and done, he'll tell you that he gave small references to just about everything.  From his wife to his dog to some books nobody ever heard of.  chill, guys, chill.


created: 2002-02-08 14:18:14
subject: <b>Yes! I was actually just about to submit this theory myself!</b>
body:
Think about all the similarities!<br /><br />Rand-Paul<br />Aiel-Fremen<br />Aes Sedai-Bene Gesserit<br />The Dragon Reborn-Kwithatz Haderak<br />He Who Comes with the Dawn-Mahdi<br />Aviendha-Chani<br />Elayne-Irulan<br />Fain-Fayde<br />Shaido-Harkonnen<br />Dreaming-Prescience<br />The Void-I will not fear. Fear is the mind killer....<br />


created: 2002-02-14 16:04:54
subject: <b>Hey Read This</b>
body:
Well I believe in an online chat somewhere or something like that. RJ can be qouted as saying &quot;I Liked toying with the ideal of a desert people instead of them being dark-skinned I would like for them to be a desert people that are light skinned&quot; Not an exact qoute but it gets the point across.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Here's Homer Simpson. His Boy Bart. Daughter Lisa. His Wife Marge.-Me<br />If you need to contact others like yourself be on the corner of Needle Street and Mol Hara Square at High.-Cannoli<br />It's Marge, his wife not his wife Marge.-Morambar</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 08:00:51
subject: <b>does no one have an ounce of respect in them?</b>
body:
is this bashtolkien.com? yes, he was a linguist and not a writer. yes, he can be hard to read at times. but for anyone to say THE LORD OF THE RINGS et al was crap is pure blasphamy. anyone who can put there nose down and actually pay atention to the story and the messages behind it without A.D.D. kicking in and not come away awed by the moral context and study presented in the books has no business near a book. Jordan is great. he's very talented and very fun to read. but at the end of the day, what do you take away from it. fond memories. when you read tolkien, and i mean really read tolkien, you continue to think and debate within yourself. the characters are black and white. but what is the nature of the good as opposed to that of the evil in the story. one sides villan is the other sides hero. anyone who doesn't undrestand or thinks im just talking out of my ass has done nothing but scan the serface of tolkiens masterpeice. the story has brought joy to millions worldwide. who are you to dismiss it as crap. id recomend the reading of a book by tom shippey on the subject, but if you were borde by tolkien, you'd never make it through this. thats my angry and embittered two cents


created: 2002-03-05 19:07:02
subject: <b>Yes, Moby Dick is Crap</b>
body:
Come on! What's with the representation of the implaccable fury of nature embodied in the white whale?  Like we've never seen another story whose theme involves man's hubris in trying to best the elements, or play God, or stories where one man's dangerous obsession leads to tragedy for him and those around him, or the idea that if you press too hard for something you might not like the result.  Hello HM, try for something original for once.  And all that boring incessant description!  You're not a maritime chronicler, you're a linguist for crying out loud!<br /> The point, people, is that there are very few truly original stories out there, and both Tolkien and Jordan freely admitted to slavish borrowing from mythology to show the familiar stories in another way.  I saw a book of Norse mythology and in a glossary listing the different creatures and peoples of Norse and Germanic legend, under dwarves were Oin, Gloin, Dori, Nori, Ori, Balin, Dwalin, Thror, Thrain, Dain, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur.  Gandalf was an evil elf.  It was the summary of Odin legends in this very book that hammered the Mat Cauthon/Odin comparison home to me.  I read and like all three authors, though I couldn't get through the Silmarilon or even pick up the later books, and of the three, only Jordan has been able to draw out an entertaining narrative to the exent that he has.  Both Tolkien and Herbert seemed to lose track of what made their books popular successes (if they ever cared).  Tolkien seemed more and more interested in detailing his world and its backstory, while Herbert got arrogant and preachy once he killed off Leto (the big Worm Guy), and he was leaning that way even before that book.  All three authors are remarkably well informed in the deeper fields covered by their books, either in theology/mythology and linguistics (Tolkien), environmental relationships and socio-political theory (Herbert), or sociological pressures and pyscological cultural dynamics (Jordan).  Note the varieties in specialties and also the connecting threads which create these apparent rip-offs.  Tolkien and Herbert are renowed as the authors of the single preeminent pioneering work in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, respectively.  The Hobbit and Dune are to those areas, what The Godfather is to mafia movies.  Certainly Jordan came later, but his work is more refreshingly apolitical, and reads better to the contemporary mind.  He is pioneering a new kind of fantasy epic, sustained over an amazing period of time and number of books.  Not great literature, but still superior to what's on the tube or in comic books, which are the only media one can really find this kind of ongoing characterization and storylines these days.  How many other fantasy writers have a single story stretch to ten books?  Herberts' series is entirely different, with far different characters in place by the time of Chapterhouse Dune.  There's only one character in every book, and that through a ludicrous plot device, and so altered as to be unrecognizable.  Tolkien's story was told completely in three short books (the Hobbit is stand-alone), and most people read them at a gulp.  I really don't know if he could have sustained the interest over a period of years as Jordan has done.  Eddings wrote ten books, but they are two separate and complete stories, and one of the themes of the second series involves a repetion of events so the second series feels a little ripped off from the first.  The Shannara series by Brooks has had to go back in time and tell the old stories after seven books, which again could be broken down into two distinct series. The same goes for Raymond Feist and his Midkemia stories.  Two separate and shorter stories, and currently filling in history.<br />The only comparable works currently underway are A Song of Fire and Ice, and The Sword of Truth, the latter of which draws heavily on The Wheel of Time for inspiration, and further, each volume is nearly a stand-alone book. SoFaI is putting us thru Jordanesque waits and Book 4 is still forthcoming.  At the rate people die, Book 10 (we should be so lucky) will consist mainly of descriptions of mounds of corpses, and likely the treachery and politics of the rats and vultures.  Both series, amusingly enough, are compared to The Wheel of Time on their jackets in the same way early WOT books were compare to LotR.  <br />In summation, people, we read them, they may be similar, but that just gives us 19 books to enjoy instad of 9, or 4, or 6. There's something different for the serious reader to pick out of each series (and from Goodkind, Martin, Eddings, Brooks, et al.), and charaters who stand out, whether Eddard Stark for his honor, Arutha conDoin for his brains, Richard Rahl for his determination and implacability, Belgarath for his scope and perspective; or Rand al'Thor for his tenacity and refusal to surrender, Mat Cauthon for bringing an everyman's perspective to apocalyptic times and rising heroically above the everyman in impossible situations, or Perrin Aybarra's devotion to both higher ideals and his personnal responsibilities.  Or Ishmael's miraculuos talent for surviving everything from a vengeful whale, to a shipwreck, to a cannibal roommate to a Sword-that-is-Not-a-Sword-wound in his chest (hey wait! that SOB Jordan ripped off Moby Dick too!  Is nothing sacred?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 13:28:58
subject: <b>Did anyone read this far down?</b>
body:
Man, talk about some irrate people.<br />Everyone calm down.<br />It's all a matter of opinion any way.<br />I've enjoyed all 9 of Jordan's books. I know I could never write anything that approached the depth and power of his novels. <br />I've also enjoyed Lord of the Rings. I've read the first 3 Dune books. Yep all good.<br />Now here's the thing you must understand:<br />ALL FANTASY IS THE SAME!!!!!!<br />Good Vs. Evil.<br />deal with it.<br />read a book.<br />enjoy it if you want.<br />hate it if you want.<br />quit complaining.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 22:05:40
subject: <b>this is a good theory!</b>
body:
i think that there are a LOT of similarities between the world of dune and WoT. some person above me listed many of them. that doesn't mean that herbert was better than jordan, it just means that they have similar themes and ideas.<br /><br />and as for good vs bad, i think the herbert was kinda different in that good vs bad was not so 100% clear in his whole series.


created: 2002-04-19 16:32:26
subject: <b>More similarities, and a clue of things to come?</b>
body:
The similarities between WoT and Dune are far more in depth than the ones listed here.<br /><br />In God Emperor of Dune, Leto enters a dream world called Mythram al'maytha (or something). From the description, it seems a lot like Tel'aran'rhiod...<br /><br />The children of Moad'Dib (Paul) are twins, one boy, one girl. Elayne will bear two of rand's children; a boy and a girl.<br /><br />Rand and Paul both have more than one &quot;wife&quot;...<br /><br />The most overwhelming of similarities lies in &quot;Shaitan&quot;, both the DO in WoT and the evil side of the Sandworm in Dune...<br /><br />looking at Dune may also reveal things to come: if things remain similar, then it is possible that:<br />-Elayne (Chani) will die in child birth<br />-Rand's children will be very good at channeling; the male child better than the female<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You're just jealous that the voices talk to me!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the Mauve Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Not a member of the ASI<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 18:54:03
subject: <b>A Few Points</b>
body:
I don't buy that a book has to be hard to read to be good.  Crime and Punishment is one of the best books I've ever read...but I mean my God.  The same with Dune.  On the other hand, Tolkien, Jordan, Twain...all easy reads and all great literature.<br /><br />Jordan doesn't steal as much as people think.  You can say he stole the Aiel from the Fremen, but they're both based on Zulu/Israeli/Native Americans.  By the same token, Fain seems to be a rip off on Gollum, but if you read Norse mythology, he was based on the Hound(just like Gollum).  Tolkien never got accused of stealing because he was the first to do it.<br /><br />It's impossible to compare Jordan and Tolkien.  The WOT is an epic; Tolkien is great in its simplicity.  It's the Sheinarian version of beauty...a single rose placed just so.  It is untouchable in the same way that Hank Williams is...you simply can't criticize a work in a genre that it created.  And if I remember my Tolkien history correctly...he had people waiting years for his books (it's hard writing with a full time job).


created: 2002-09-02 23:18:58
subject: <b>Dune shmune</b>
body:
Both Dune and Tolkien came before WOT. What they set in there novels will always be copied to some degree. You can't help but follow the examples that two of the best fantasy writers ever envisioned.


created: 2002-10-01 21:49:01
subject: <b>Ignoring the theory but more than a little pissed at dissing LotR</b>
body:
First of all, the LotR is not tolkiens main work (at least not in his eyes ) the only reason he wrote it was to use the world that he had created his whole life in the simmilrilion and unfinished tales. The book itself is crap, yes, but never, ever one dimensional. The characters maybe, but the book, no. Middle earth has a vast history, more than RJ has ever even suggested. Tolkien wrote sagas and ballads that had the feel of the culture in it and created an entire language, RJ just dabbled really in Old Tounge. If you read Tolkien as a novel, your missing out on the whole point of the work...<br />No Offense ment... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Brilliant, Piter! I'm so glad I didn't execute you all those times you were so annoying&quot;      <br />&quot;So am I&quot;<br />Gotta Love those Twisted Mentats!<br /><br />~*~Becca Sedai of the Slightly-Off-White Ajah~*~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-26 15:40:23
subject: <b>Also, blindness...</b>
body:
In one boardgame mentioned briefly there appears a piece called the Fisher, with a bandage over his eyes. I haven't read the Dune books for a while, but I believe Paul Atreides becomes blind. Just a small addendum!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Aliena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Preserver of Sanity<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Yawgmoth's alter-ego <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Calciferous Conjurer! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-20 11:27:33
subject: <b>Agree and Disagree</b>
body:
Sure there are similarties.  There always will be.  However, I do not think this detracts at all.  <br /><br />Obviously, everyone discussing this has read Dune and likes WoT enough to be posting here.  Is it coincidence that you like both?  No, we get familiar with a story like Dune or LoTR and jump at an opportunity to read something similar... but different.<br /><br />Further, we all get down on Jordan at some points.  I personally never remember the 2nd tier characters (especially all the friggin' Aes Sedai), but I am still reading and I am sure you all will too.<br /><br />My two cents,


created: 2003-01-21 03:29:07
subject: <b>About Dune</b>
body:
If I remember correcty in Dune there was<br /><br />Ducan Idaho a great general/weapons master who was<br />cloned time and time again until he finally remembered<br />all his lives = Mat<br /><br />Honored Matres who had departed Bene Gesserits a long time a go and finally came back to conquer = Seanchan<br /><br />And Duncan/mat fell in love to one of Seanchan = Tuon<br /><br />Well... this could also be a coincidence but....


created: 2003-02-16 14:33:09
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
I TOTALLY AGREE W/ U!!! i even put a posting on the mb, just cause i didnt think it was that important, but u pointed out everything i said. THATS AWESOME. any way i agree w/ u whole-heartedly. is that how u spell it?


created: 2003-03-23 16:31:57
subject: <b>more Dunes in Randland!</b>
body:
There is more! Atreides and Bene Gesserit are possessed by ancestors &lt;-&gt; Rand and male channeler(?) have a former self in them.<br />The Harkonnens know more then the Atreides, have much more power and resources and are extremely ruthless &lt;-&gt; Forsaken have vast knowledge, power and willing helpers thanks to stupid darkfriends and Compulsion and are, well, Forsaken.<br />Bene Tleilax create everything, however repulsive &lt;-&gt; Shadowspawn<br />Ghola &lt;-&gt; Gholam (I know just a name not the same thing)<br />Bene Gesserit secretly hate and fear Paul, but they need him &lt;-&gt; AS hate and fear Rand, but they need him.


created: 2003-03-29 09:03:53
subject: <b>So what's wrong with borrowing?</b>
body:
Well I'll lay my cards on the table at the outset: I love Jordan, and I enjoyed Herbert and Tolkien, though I found parts of both the latters' books hard-going.<br /><br />I agree Jordan borrowed from both, but so what? Just to broaden the discussion a bit, we coudn't have had the Beethoven we know without Mozart - so what? They are both amazing composers, and I cannot tire of listening to either of them. I'm delighted Beethoven borrowed (from Mozart, and also Haydn &amp; others too).<br /><br />Someone earlier contrasted Da Vinci's and Van Gogh's styles. But if you look at direct students (e.g El Greco of Titian, or Renoir of Pisarro) you see the same tendency: students build on a master's achievements and sometimes go beyond them.<br /><br />Jordan is just such a master. There can be no doubt he is in (nearly) anyone's list of all-time fantasy writer greats. &quot;Only in the list?&quot; I hear you ask, &quot;not at the top?&quot;. No - with writing of the quality of Jordans, Herberts and Tolkiens, everyone will have their own personal view of what they prefer. Just as I love Mozart's operas, but find Rossini's hard to sit through, so there will be someone who has the opposite opinion. So what?<br /><br />I am delighted Jordan had the wit and intelligence to borrow from both Tolkien and Herbert.<br /><br />While I'm writing, can I add to the earlier person's recommendation of George R.R. Martin, who is my current favourite author (yes, that's right, Jordan is only my number two - cue hate mail), two more recommendations of relatively new authors: Robyn Hobb and Elizabeth Haydon. Neither's books are remotely like Jordan's or Martin's except in these respects: the depth of the characters and worlds they invent, and their descriptions of these.


created: 2003-04-17 15:12:20
subject: <b>Well maybe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I think there is some similarity, but not that much. Admittedly I have only read the first book. I started on the second, and it was pretty bad and so I lost intrest.<br />For those who think that Tolkien sucks, well I would suggest that you reread the trilogy; everyone is compared to him for a reason. That reason is that he is the best ever. Is he slow on occasion, yeah, is he a bit boring with the songs, yeah; but so is RJ. At one point my favorite fantasy list went as follows.<br />1. WOT<br />2. Harry Potter<br />3. Tolkien<br />4. Chronicles of Narnia<br />5. Belgariad/Mallorean<br />Then I went back and read LotR again, and it instantly shot back up to the top. J.R.R. was writing a history of Middle-Earth, that is what the series is, a history that reads like a novel. His songs and poems makes you feel like Middle-Earth existed. His elves and dwarves are osme of the most developed fantasy creatures ever. WOT is good, don't get me wrong, but aCoS sucked and PoD was not much better, especially since <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> was not in it. WH's ending was good, but most of the reast really wasn't that good.<br /><br />I would not say the Frank Herbert really was the Godfather of modern SF, that would be Asimov, Clarke and my fave, Heinlein. Dune was good, but nowhere near as spectacular as Starship Troopers or Have Spacesuit Will Travel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 17:38:05
subject: <b>and the winner is</b>
body:
i was interested in your onnection but there are some interesting flaws... well not flaws so much that it doesn't hold together.<br />the most noteable catch is that the Bene Gesserit have breeding programes that pale, in the political sense to anything that Jordan has done...i'm not blaming him he has other things on his mind mainly how to end the world. but also the worship of the Bene Gesserit .  they have an extensive religion going on for eons and are known throughout the universe where as the White tower only dabbles in things that it feels are important.<br />also the Aiel in no way compare to the fremen.  i love WoT but Dune is more superior than any WoT book


created: 2004-01-16 17:26:04
subject: <b>Someone else noticed!</b>
body:
When I first began reading the Wheel of Time (which is all too recently) the Dune similarities struck me, and still haven't left. Aiel-Fremen is a very obvious one, one I still can't get over; I'm sure Zensunni humour can e just as strange. <br />Aes Sedai-Bene Gesserit: I guess all-female societies are all sort of alike in some ways, but the whole concept is tainted by the Bene Gesserit (who, you must admit, are very cool). It's too similar.<br /><br />And then of course you have the man who can channel, something that shouldn't have lived, and is now uber-powerful...the Kwistaz...uh...I mean Dragon. Come on.<br /><br />I'm not faulting RJ for this, of course, but to me it was always obvious, whether it was intentional or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WARNING - Newbie on the loose! Careful, I'm still reading...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-27 02:23:44
subject: <b>same but different</b>
body:
It's all the same. Always has been and probably always will be. What is important is the artist's (writer, painter, musician, whatever) thumb print. In other words, style. <br /><br />Composers from 1600 (really, around 1530's)until well into the 20th Century all use the same fundamental harmonic language. Some still do! It is how they &quot;speak&quot; that makes them different. Seemingly Mahler would have no connection to Vivaldi but, under the surface, you find the same structures. Same goes for J.S. Bach and Arnold Schoberg though you might never think it upon hearing them. <br /><br />JR, JRR, and Herbert are pretty much telling the same story. Herbert and Jordan's motives are much different, though. You should read what Frank Herbert has to say about the inspirations and goals behind his work. Either way, despite the fact that the stories are similar each author's way of spinning the tale is unique. Personally I enjoy all three because of that. <br /><br />-Boethius<br /><br />Ps. By the way, Elayne/Irulan is not even a close comparison. Rand is clearly in love with Elayne, Min, and Avi. Paul's devotion was solely to Chani. Irulan was a marriage of politics and Paul never became physically involved with her. He didn't even like her very much.<br />


created: 2005-04-06 21:17:59
subject: <b>well this sucks...</b>
body:
well... this kinda makes me mad. i read all the dune books and saw the simalarities. when i found out about this site i was gonna post something about it...but you've done it already. oh well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Faynen Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />aka Megan <br />*Faile Rox!*<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />She's the Avril of WOT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />No, I don't care that everyone hates her but me!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aes Sedai to Myrhadar Gaidin</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-05 20:56:58
subject: <b>Another similarity</b>
body:
There also is the Satan-figure of &quot;Shai'tan&quot;.  That word showed up in Dune, as well, I noticed.  (forgive any bad spelling.  It's been a while.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />I am Conglo!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />(NOT A ROCK!)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" />The Truth is Out There...just ask Queequeg.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 21:34:55
subject: <b>Woo</b>
body:
I'd just like to thank the guy above who pointed out the whole blind fisher and blind paul atradies connection.  I submitted a theory about how i thought balefire would be what blinded him since its somewhat analogous to atomics in Dune, but I donno if it'll ever get posted.


created: 2007-02-21 15:12:49
subject: <b>There's no need for this much bickering...</b>
body:
Ok...all, and I mean ALL fantasy and science-fictions writers borrow heavily, both from each other AND from mythologies and ethoi of cultures from around the world, both extant and long dead.  If you pick up any two works of fantasy literature, and to a certain extent all literature, you can find similarities as long as you look hard enough.  Every author has a purpose when they begin any work, and there are just certain archetypes that people from around the world are comfortable with that authors use to accomplish their goal.  I've read Tolkien (not everything but much more than just the Hobbit and the Trilogy), I've read Herbert and the Dune series, and I'm an avid reader of Jordan as well.  There are similarities and differences among all the works, and if you don't happen to like one of them, fine.  That's your opinion, and you have a right to it.  But to call it crap, and dismiss any of it as having no worth, or the author as untalented is ridiculous.  All three of the authors that this discussion centers around created worlds far richer than most of what came before, or since.<br /><br />Also, to whomever theorized that the Fisher game piece is an allusion to Paul Atreides...that's not entirely correct.  Paul does go blind, yes, but there's an allusion that goes much further back...To the Fisher King of Arthurian Legend, to which Rand can be connected through several parallels.


created: 2001-09-05 02:38:52
subject: <b>It could be argued...</b>
body:
...that since Elaida made that Foretelling over 25 years ago, it applied to the Royal House of Andor <i>at that time</i> - in particular, Tigraine. She could certainly be considered the key to the Last Battle, since she was the Dragon Reborn's mother.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 02:53:37
subject: <b>Rand Kneel to Egwene ? HELL NO!</b>
body:
It should be the other way around if nothing else. I know this post is suppose to be about Elyane being the key to the final battle. Anyway i believe Elyane will be A key in the final battle but not THE key.


created: 2001-09-05 12:00:00
subject: <b>The key to the Last Battle, according to Elaida</b>
body:
Elaida Foretold that the Royal Family of Andor would be crucial in the Last Battle.  When it became clear that Morgase would take the throne, she latched onto her and became her advisor.<br /><br />I contend that the actual Royal Family of the time was Tigraine, Taringail, Luc, and their offspring.  These offspring are:  Galad, Rand, Gawyn, and Elayne.  Notice anyone who's had a fairly large impact on recent events in those lists?<br /><br />I think Elaida was not fully with it when she had that Foretelling--otherwise she wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Taringail and Tigraine as unimportant.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 12:07:00
subject: <b>Galad gets the shaft</b>
body:
On a bit of a side note, one thing that is bothersome is that Galad has more claim to the Sun Throne than Elayne.  He was first born and most histories refer to Kings sitting on the Sun Throne (not saying a Queen could not, but the point is a King can).  Galad should get the Sun Throne.


created: 2001-09-05 13:50:08
subject: <b>Galad</b>
body:
I agree with the above message that Galad would be the most obvious claimant for the Sun Throne. Elayne will be quite busy being Queen of Andor AND Aes Sedai close to the Amyrlin Seat AND lover of the Dragon Reborn And mother of their children... Galad, on the other hand, has only the Whitecloaks to worry about. Either he will be their leader, or King of Cairhien, or both, but I'll be disappointed if neither. And Elayne should be happy if his new post kept him from pesting her. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Besides,Galad has just the mannerisms of a fairy tale king. Irritatingly noble, brave, knighty, dutiful, good-at-everything and so on. Berelain would make a good queen to him, besides.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Though realationship on that distance might be hard to keep up...<br /><br />&quot;How can you have headache AGAIN?! You had headache on my two lasst annual visits too!&quot;<br /><br />Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 17:31:08
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
This is a nice theory, but I think that the Elayne's importance is a LITTLE exaggerated here. I mean, how are all the other powerful and ambitious nobilites and Aes Sedai going to accept her being in command? I think that Elayne can be a lot of things, but not a mediator of peace and uniter of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 19:41:04
subject: <b>Thank you...</b>
body:
thank you to the people above who wrote in about Tigraine and Luc and all the kids (I'm sure Rand especially, he's KIND OF important.) Anyway, that's the reason the royal house of Andor is important.  Elaida thought it would be important because of Morgase and her kids.  Which, of course, they ARE important but Rand is much more so.  Elaida just didn't know it.


created: 2001-09-05 20:40:09
subject: <b>I think someone should tell Elaida...</b>
body:
That Rand is a royal of Andor AND the Dragon Reborn. see how she reacts to that<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-06 13:48:26
subject: <b>Rand.</b>
body:
I always viewed that foretelling as follows.  When she had the foretelling, Tigraine was daughter heir.  Her foretelling states that the ruling family of Andor was the key to the last battle, so Tigraine's family was the key.  Who is tigraine's second son?  Rand al'Thor, sir.  Yes.  So whatevs.


created: 2001-09-07 14:44:30
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I think that Rand is the key to the last battle. At the time of Elaidas foretelling there &quot;was&quot; no queen on the throne, thus in theory Tigraine was still queen and tigraines chil is, well rand...


created: 2001-09-07 20:51:13
subject: <b>How is Rand an Andoran Nobal?</b>
body:
He has no relation to Andor's Houses at all.  He is barely related to anyone in Andor, and thats through marriage.  he is half-brothers of Galad, who is Half brothers to Gawyn and Elayne, but the parentage is not the same.  The distance between Rand and Gawyn and Elayne, via Galad, is great, because of Tigraine running off to be aiel, and Morgase marrying Taringail.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 22:19:07
subject: <b>Rand</b>
body:
That foretelling happened with Tigraine as queen. Rand is the royal line. That means he is the critical one to winning, not ELAYNE!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hammer of the Light,<br /><br />By The Grace of the Light,<br /><br />High King of the World,<br /><br />Lord of the Six Gates,<br /><br />Master of the Winds,<br /><br />Artur Hawking</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 15:22:28
subject: <b>the royal blood of andor</b>
body:
i dont think in any place did elaida ever say that it was elayne or even house trakand that was the key. i cant remember word for word but i believe it was more along the lines of the ruleing house or something along those lines. it would be good to remember who rands mother was, that makes rand part of the royal blood of andor. elaidas fortelling wasnt very clear so only one person can really say for sure who he ment but my guess leans a little towards rand being the ke to the final battle, him being the dragon reborn and all. just a thought.


created: 2001-09-09 22:03:26
subject: <b>Perrin &amp; FAILE</b>
body:
Just a thought about the borderland lords and them being notably under Elayne's power.<br /><br />Perrin is married to Faile. Faile is the niece of ?(from memory- correct me here) Tenobia, the queen of Saldaea, who doesn't seem to have gotten around to marrying just yet.<br /><br />It seems likely we'll have Berelain+Galad in the (South)East and Perrin+Faile in the (North)West of Randland (more RJ symmetry).<br />Elayne can still be High Queen of Randland, with the others as subordinate rulers. This is alongside Mat+Tuon ruling Seanchan. Mat wouldn't like being subordinate given POV's, nor Tuon given she's likely to rule an empire 2x the size of Randland (WOT Guide).<br /><br />Bit away from the theory, but there's my thoughts..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 02:00:06
subject: <b>Raserei...not to be disrespectful, but...</b>
body:
You ask how rand is an andoran noble?  How is he not an andoran noble? <br /><br /> He is the son of the woman who was rightful queen when Morgase was using the lion throne in an *ahem innapropriate manner with Taringail, Thom, Gareth Bryne, and undoubtedly 18 queens guards, 15 sheepherders, 10 mercenaries, 5 warders, and rumor has it, 3 aes sedai.  But I digress.  He is the heir of an andoran house that is even more connected to ishara than morgase (how many  lines lead to ishara, andors first wueen, is how they decide who rules).  If he wanted, a couple of years down the road, he could successfully have his daughter queen.  She comes from the 2 closest lines to Ishara.  But then again he would have to be alive, which he wont be (mins viewing: 3 women standing over his funeral burier, while his  was still wet on black rocks.  So HA!)<br /><br />There you go.  I have managed to ramble on for quite a little bit.  Well...cya.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />the villiage idiot<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 00:34:08
subject: <b>a couple errors</b>
body:
in the post i just made, there are a couple errors.  wueen should be queen, and when i talk about min's viewing i say his is still wet on black rocks.  this should be his .  sorry bout that.  <br />sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />the viliage idiot<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 00:39:04
subject: <b>his red oozing liquid</b>
body:
stupid keyboard.  his blud(it gets erased when i spell it right, and i don't know why).  it should be his blud.  After making a fool of myself, I bid you adieu.<br />sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />the villiage idiot<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 12:52:43
subject: <b>Rand as the key</b>
body:
Elaida had that foretelling before Morgase took the throne.  Rand's mother was Tigraine, the previous daughter heir, making him part of the royal line of Andor.  Elaida just misunderstood (not the only time, remember the one about Rand kneeling to HER)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 09:55:54
subject: <b>The Royal House is the key</b>
body:
In the second or third book, Elaida mentioned that the Royal House of Andor was the key to winning Tarmon Gai'don.  At the time when she had this Fortelling, Tigraine's family was in charge and since Tigraine's son is Rand, he is of the past Royal House of Andor so the Dragon Reborn is the key to winning, not Elayne.


created: 2001-11-05 16:57:02
subject: <b>Elayne</b>
body:
Hopeful Elayne will die or get slapped down cause its needs to happen she goes on about everyone is born anywhere near Andor being a subject of Andor. She plans to make Rand swear a oath as her Warder to obey her. She doesn't really want to share Rand with anyone. She is just generally Childish and Stuck up. Also with the Borderlanders she did nothing but use them and try badly to make it look like she wasn't. When the Andor houses start raiding the BL supplys and attacking their forging partys. Which is what they will do cause she has no control more than a mile from Caemylan.<br />Also thats a way to destroy a Larger army who is starving at the time. It is going to take something major from to keep her on the Throne.


created: 2002-01-08 19:49:02
subject: <b>A Novice's Perspective</b>
body:
I started reading the books just under a year ago, so I'm trying not to delve into this website too much for fear of spoiling the surprises that await me. <br /><br />I believe Elaida's fortelling about Andor was mentioned in the third book, after Morgase disassociated herself with the Tower for the disappearance of Elayne. From what I've been told by friends, Elaida tended to misinterpret her foretellings.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)<br /><br />I've always perceived this foretelling as referring to Rand.  I've pretty well figured out that his mother was the Daughter-Heir of Andor before she ran off into the Aiel Waste.  So in that regard, he is of Andoran royal blood.  It makes sense to me anyway.


created: 2002-03-13 18:43:39
subject: <b>ok till the ending...</b>
body:
First, I doubt it, but it could also mean Rand, since at the time or the vision, it never specified that the FUTURE ruling house of Andor was the key.  Tigraine was the part of the ruling house at that point (since she hadn't died yet), and Rand is her son (so's Galad for that matter).  It could, therefore, also refer to Galad.  Maybe he'll bring along the whitcloaks.  Mt point is, you can't be sure, since it can ALSO mean Gawyn.  (who knows? stranger things have happened in the series).<br />Second, there is no evidence that a mindtrap is a ter'angreal.  They use the OP, but a mindtrap doesn't necessarily do so.  We know absolutely nothing about them in any case.  Either way it wouldn't matter, as no true person &quot;dedicated to the Light&quot; would do something like that to anybody.


created: 2002-03-14 13:43:16
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
at lest we know that Elayne and Rand's Kids will have the rights to Andors Throne 2 fold. With a side of Dragon reborn for that extra wieght.


created: 2002-04-07 14:54:22
subject: <b>i don't agree with a lot of you.</b>
body:
just because elaida's fortelling occurs at a certain time, it doesn't mean that it explicitly refers to the people holding the titles at the time the prediction was made. if i predicted the president of the united states will be the key to winning the world series 100 years from now, would you think that bush would be the one to do so? similarly, if elaida had made the fortelling 500 years before morgase or tigirin was around, would you expect that the key to TG would have to be from whatever house held andor at the time of the fortelling? it is natural to assume that the house that holds andor at the time of TG is the key. therefore, i don't think it neccessarily refers to rand, though i suppose it very well might. i think elayne is as much fair game as rand is. anyway, that's my interpretation of elaida's foretelling.


created: 2002-04-08 18:16:39
subject: <b>I wonder ...</b>
body:
if Elayne will actually rule in Andor<br /><br />in tPoD<br /><br />&quot;Elayne wished she knew whether it was from delight over her plans or because Dyelin saw her own path to the Lion Throne being made smooth.&quot;<br /><br />so I just laugh at all the High Queen theories


created: 2002-07-11 11:58:25
subject: <b>Rand is the key to the Final Battle</b>
body:
I think you're forgetting where Rand came from. He was Tigraine's son. Tigraine was going to be Queen of Andor. Therefore, Rand is of the Royal Line of Andor and therefore the key that Elaida foretold. Indeed, I do think that Elayne is essential to the Last Battle, but I don't think she was the Key that Elaida saw in her foretelling, since it is not long (well in RJ terms anyway) after this is revealed that we find out Rand's origin. I think your theory is well thought out, but I think it misses that key point that RAND is the key. He is the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- The Faery<br /><br /><br />Bad habits pay off in the long run. <br />     -Matrim Cauthon<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-20 13:01:23
subject: <b>I luv this theory!</b>
body:
I'm with you 100% until the mindtrap part! Elaida's Fortelling's don't always have to do with the world right then, and I'm sure Elayne is going to be the key to the final battle!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Goddamn it! Who gave Max Payne the power to channel?&quot; - Edge<br />&quot;Max Payne is officially Naeblis!&quot; - Maddy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 19:16:01
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
WOULD YOU PEOPLE STOP BEING SO REDUNDANT!!!!<br /><br />(takes a deep breath)<br /><br />Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. I've been reading the comments and they all say the same thing!<br /><br />So, some stuff:<br /><br />1) <br /><br />Rand may be of Royal blood but so is Elayne(and Gawyn, Galad, and Morgase)! No where does it indicate that the key has to be one person, rather it mentions the HOUSE. That speaks to me of more than one person.<br /><br />2)<br /><br />First you say that the TA Elayne found could be a mind trap because of its similarities. Then, you defend its differences by saying not all TA with the same function look alike. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!<br /><br />3)<br /><br />Galad and the others have the same MOTHER. The Cairheinen royal blood is from the FATHER.<br /><br />K, i'm done!<br /><br />Oh yeah-don't worry metallica, Rand's daughter will end up taking the throne(because in WH Min predicted a girl and boy for Elayne)<br /><br />K, now I'm done.


created: 2002-11-11 11:38:52
subject: <b>nada</b>
body:
I think that Eliada's foretelling is a hint to the Aes Seidai that the dragon reborn will be born from Andoran royalty, and after all, Rand is Tigraine's, the queen of Andor before Morgase, son and also the dragon reborn.  That is all that Eliada's foretelling is saying.  She just misinterprets it as badly as she misinterprets the foretelling about the white tower being whole again to be that she will reunite the white tower!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The brain-dead master of sleep! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-10 17:16:10
subject: <b>What about Egwene</b>
body:
You forgot her connections to Egwene. There won't really be that much to bind together if the rebels take the white tower and Egwene is kept as the amrylin seat.


created: 2004-10-26 19:39:34
subject: <b>Elaida's fortellings...</b>
body:
...are really ambiguous.  Remember the one that says &quot;the Dragon Reborn will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger.&quot;  She interprets this to mean that Rand will kneel before her.  But I think it will go something more like this...<br /><br />  Rand settled himself into the Amyrlin Seat.  The Seat from which the leader of the Aes Sedai had made thrones and rulers dance like puppets.  &quot;Hmmm,&quot; he thought, putting his boots up on the desk, &quot;it's pretty uncomfortable.  No wonder all the Amyrlins act like they have a stick up their...&quot;<br />  His musing was broken by the noises of rage coming from the other side of the room.  &quot;Woolhead!  You fool...man!&quot;  Egwene snarled.  Rand had prudently shielded her and bound her with Air.  Listening to her petulant noises, Rand thought, &quot;Boy, she's really pissed at me...&quot;<br />  It was all for the best, though, Rand figured, as he tied the stole of the Amyrlin around his head like a headband.  Egwene had been getting too uppity, and all the powers of Randland needed to be united for Tarmon Gai'don.  Ignoring Egwene's snarls, he gestured at the other person in the room:  &quot;Danelle, I'm thirsty.  Fetch me some warm milk.&quot;<br />  &quot;Yes, master!&quot;  Danelle giggled.  A good little Aes Sedai, Rand mused.  And so quick to swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn!  Too bad they weren't all like that...


created: 2001-09-05 10:59:52
subject: <b>Manetheren fell two thousand years before, let it be please.</b>
body:
There's no reason at all for Manetheren being raised again. OK, some people use the Red Eagle banner again, but that doesn't mean anything. On a side note, Elayne made rather clear that she isn't gonna let anybody at all take any part of her realm, which includes the Two Rivers in her opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 12:47:12
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Ew<br /><br />nuff said<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the Mysterious Name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 17:27:13
subject: <b>This must be a joke</b>
body:
EW! is definitely the right word. I mean, this has to belong to the humorous department! This is worse than that Perrin=Verin theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 19:49:18
subject: <b>King Perrin of Manetherin yes.....</b>
body:
but Morraine and Thom seems likley...<br />i think Perrin and Faile will survive - the third age seems to be one of breaking of ideas..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 20:13:45
subject: <b>Faile should die.</b>
body:
hopefully soon.  and slowly.  and soon.  and painfully.  and soon.  and then maybe Perrin would be cool again.  and he could finally nail Barelain without feeling guilty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 20:45:24
subject: <b>This is totally irrelevant, but...</b>
body:
I DEFINITELY DON'T think this will happen now, but I do think that even if none of WOT had happened, and Rand and Perrin and all were still farmkids in the 2Rivers, i think Eg. and Perrin would have been better than Rand and Eg. - in book 1, Perrin says he loves her, not like a sister, but she and Rand...ok- whatever. my rambling is done.


created: 2001-09-06 00:18:45
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
I don't remember that one<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Daneish<br />-King of the Danes<br />-Eater of toast<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 16:15:40
subject: <b>When They're in the Stedding</b>
body:
It happens when Egwene and Perrin are with Elyas in the stedding. Perrin is wondering whether he should kill Egwene with his axe if the ravens catch them. <br /><br />A little bit later Elyas asks him why he wanted to kill Egwene, Elyas believes its because Perrin thinks Egwene is slowing them down, and Perrin answers with something about the Ravens and what was already posted.


created: 2001-09-09 20:28:56
subject: <b>Recall what Hopper said</b>
body:
In one of them there wolf dreams (book 4 I do believe) Hopper tells Perrin that he his she (that being Faile) will give him many cubs. While it hasn't been stated explicitly that wolves in T'A'R can see the future, there haven't been any examples of characters making definitive/prophetic statements (as opposed to their own views or guesses) about the future that have been proven wrong. So it'd seem contradictory if RJ had a big prediction about Faile and Perrin having lots of kids and then killing her off with no tots being born.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-11 08:31:42
subject: <b>Ew indeed.</b>
body:
1. Moiraine wouldn't be caught by someone like Perrin. It would take a man with a very quick wit and dexterity of both speech and movement. Ergo, Thom. And we know that she is at least 53 years old, since she is 33 as of the events of New Spring (Revealed by Cadsuane, to Moiraine's astonishment), which was shortly after the birth of the Dragon. Now Rand is 20 or 21 by all accounts.<br /><br />2. Hoppers prediction about Faile bearing many cubs cannot possibly be false.<br /><br />3. The persistent tendency of each person falling in love with someone who on the surface is exactly what they don't want. Mat likes them a bit older than he, fully fleshed out and even perhaps experienced, but definitely NOT nobleborn. Perrin seemed to prefer the thought of a quiet life with a nice sensible woman. Rand is sure in the beginning that he and Egwene are right for each other, but then she learns she can channel. Rand cannot see himself with an Aes Sedai, or any channeler for that matter. So Perrin gets the flighty, forceful, reckless falcon, and Mat get the petite, skinny, BALD, daughter of the empress of an invading force, and Rand get TWO channelers and a SEER, all of whom are anything but shy and retiring.<br /><br />4. Eww.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 00:27:58
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
I think that Moiraine is out of the Question. But I do think that Faile may die and Perrin find another. She actually makes him promise to do just that( I will look through the books to find the passage.) Also Min has a viewing of two birds on Perrin's shoulder one is a Falcon(Faile) and one..???


created: 2001-09-14 04:59:35
subject: <b>King Warder &amp; Aes Sedai Queen</b>
body:
<br />Min viewing in Perrin about Broken Crown, will kill that theory. Perrin will have Saldae before or after TG!!<br /> <br />If Manetheren will have warder &amp; AS on King and Queen, should it be Mat and Tuon!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Ultimate J&#196;L&#196;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-18 15:21:03
subject: <b>I agree with Raserei</b>
body:
&quot;Ew&quot; sums it up pretty well.<br /><br />Also, I think Perrin and Faile live happily ever after.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jordyn Sedai <br />of the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br />Captain Jack:  With a dashing hero like me on the case, how can we fail?<br /><br />Ianto:  He is dashing, you have to give him that.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 22:25:21
subject: <b>Um, no</b>
body:
1)Well if nothing else I got a laugh. Mostly 'cause the thought of that ever happening is, well, yucky.<br /><br />2)And to Call_me_Tim. Moiraine was 22 in New Spring going on 23. Which means she is around 45, not 53. Not that it means she and and Perrin will ever....ya know....But! Don't make my girl older than she is, alright amigo? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> loves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 02:21:09
subject: <b>Manetheren</b>
body:
In the words of Masema: &quot;The Lord Dragon breaks all bonds of tradition.&quot; So why can't other ta'veren? Just because Perrin will probably be King of Manetheren doesn't mean he has to be a Warder. Faile doesn't necessaryily need to channel, and besides, witht the Saldaean girls mentality of the husband dominating and the ladies obeying, I don't see why Faile would want to take the dominant role in ruling Manetheren instead of handing it over to Perrin. After all, a channelling ruler is more dominant than a non-channelling co-ruler, right?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Eternal Werewolf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Jeraal Mordeth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 16:07:51
subject: <b>hmm....</b>
body:
It seems pretty certain now that Moiraine is going to end up with Thom, not Perrin, although i actually think seeing Moiraine and Perrin would b very neat (i thought it was really going to happen myself for the first few books, but then we meet Faile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /> , and since so many ppl hate Faile, jordan will probably keep her alive to make us suffer...). The age thing wouldn't really be that much of a problem, since we already have Lan with Nynaeve, who is definitely much younger than him, but Perrin+Moiraine is still probably unlikely to happen now, unfortunately i think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 19:23:32
subject: <b>Eww, and no</b>
body:
Perrin dosn't really like Aes Sedai that much less then mat.<br />And he wouldn't just get over Falie dieing, he would probely shout and go half nuts. And I find that berlain is an annoying slut.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 08:46:18
subject: <b>Faile vs. Sevanna</b>
body:
I don't think that Faile will die from being with the Shaido.  If it comes down to her and Sevanna, I pretty much think that Faile has the capacity to be a bigger b*tch and more stubborn than Sevanna.  Sevanna sometimes submits to that other Wise One (I don't have her name handy).  Faile NEVER submits to anyone (not truly submits even to Perrin).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Hey Peter, what's happening?  Ummm yeah, we need to talk about your TPS reports.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 12:27:02
subject: <b>ummmmm probably not</b>
body:
I think it's pretty obvious there is something with Thom and Moiraine that RJ hasn't delved deeply into yet, and I just don't think she'd tangle herself with Perrin that way. <br /><br />Besides, if he's planning on wrapping this up in 3 books, we wouldn't have time to explore Moiraine and Thom and then move into a Moiraine and Perrin thing.  It's too wierd.<br /><br />Perrin could very well become someone's warder, and Faile could very well die before the end of it all, but I seriousely doubt he'll end up with Moiraine.  It just doesn't fit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Wolf Sister of the White Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The way is clear, the light is good,<br />I have no fear, nor no one should.<br />The woods are just trees, the trees are just wood.<br />Credit to Sondhiem <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 23:33:04
subject: <b>I like Faile</b>
body:
I don't know why so many people hate her. I think Faile is a pretty cool character. On the other hand, I also think ( though it probably won't happen) I think Perrin and Moiraine might be kinda neat. Moiraine would definatly make a good ruler. But really, I really want Faile to survive this. Perrin loves her, end of story. He couldn't be with anyone else, not in the limited time space of these books at least. Sure, Faile is rather jelous of Berelain (which she might loosen up about if Berelain goes with Galad) and she is a little controlling, but I think the two of them are great together. It would also be neat to see what Perrin and Failes kids would be like (Perrin and Moiraines might be cool to). Well, I rambled on for a bit. Oh well.<br /><br />PS I like Faile<br /><br />PPS I really like Faile<br /><br />PPPS I think some people are way to judging<br /><br />PPPPS That's all I have to say<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smiter of cornflakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Legolas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sporks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The one and only BogDog <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 12:32:38
subject: <b>yup</b>
body:
Summary: Ew<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 22:30:16
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
faile is to perfect for perrin. moriane and thom are destined to be together unless i missed some clue. also everything is changing traditions are falling apart (not just in the aiel) and new traditions are being done. so i think manetherean will also be like all the other nations old traditions fall apart and new traditions become whats done. and this isn't just because i love faile's character to death. <br /><br />lady faile t' bashere aybara<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">GoldenEyes ( () ), GoldenEyes ( () ), where art thou GoldenEyes ( () )?<br /><br />Lady Faile t'Bashere Aybara</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 13:20:14
subject: <b>enough</b>
body:
ok ppl enough with the ews, nobody likes it. Move along. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 20:28:50
subject: <b>Thom and Moiraine?</b>
body:
Hmm... Faile dead and Perrin marrying Moiraine, very interesting idea indeed.  But remember Egwene's dream when Thom saves someone (or something) with a blue crystal on her forehead.  This to me sounds something of importance and maybe a little heroism, maybe to make moiraine fall in love with thom? comments, questions?<br />


created: 2002-07-20 15:27:26
subject: <b>Alanna and Rand</b>
body:
King and Queen of Manetherem, Warder and Aes Sedai, Rand and Alanna...?<br /><br />(not really)<br /><br />Probably Mat and Tuon if anyone


created: 2003-01-30 23:20:13
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
finally someone agrees with ME!!!!!! nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-01 17:28:14
subject: <b>My opinion</b>
body:
Mat will be King of Manetheren, Tuon will be the Aes Sedai, and Perrin along with Faile will inherit Saldea.


created: 2003-02-02 15:57:42
subject: <b>What are you thinking?</b>
body:
Don't you remember that Moiraine died, killed herself to stop Lanfear from killing Rand. If, and I stress if, Moiraine were still alive the bond with Lan would not have been severed and she would have made some kind of appearance by now. I don't know if you have read CoT by now but Perrin throws away the axe.  That dream you mentioned sounds like something the dark one would pull to mess with his mind.


created: 2003-02-17 23:25:16
subject: <b>Umm...Moiraine?</b>
body:
As far as i remember, Moiraine is dead.  <br />The reason Lanfear was reborn as Cynde (sp?) was because of The Dark One.  I highly doubt he'll bring Moiarine back to life, and even if he did, All of the Returned Forsaken have new names as well as bodies.<br /><br />Faile will live to meet the Hawk of Min's visions.  Remember, Min saw BOTH the falcon and the hawk on Perrin's hands.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The call of the wolf shall strike fear into the hearts of criminals, for they shall know that their time on this Earth is short<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />-Darkwolf Bloodsbane, Lord of Darkness, the Destroyer<br />Shut up, 'Wolf<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />-Me, Lord of Light, the Preserver</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-02 18:09:54
subject: <b>everything</b>
body:
Well it never EXPLICITY states that Moiraine is dead, and she is a fav among fans so we like to keep her alive... and also why ew??? I personally can't stand Faile.. she is SO... I don't kno but she is... and I don't like it... AND nothing has actually been stated about Moiraine and Thom... so it's like saying she's coming back.. all speculation, nothign is in stone and nothing is sacred<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~g~<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/25087.gif" /><br /><i><font face="Trebuchet MS"><font color="FF00FF">C</font><font color="FF11FF">r</font><font color="FF22FF">a</font><font color="FF33FF">z</font><font color=" FF44FF ">e</font><font color=" FF55FF ">d</font><font color=" FF66FF ">W</font><font color=" FF77FF ">e</font><font color=" FF88FF ">a</font><font color=" FF99FF ">se</font><font color=" FFCCFF ">l</font></font></i><br /><br /><i>&quot;Do not waste time bothering whether you &quot;love&quot; your neighbor; act as if you did...When you are behaving as if you loved someone you will presently come to love him.&quot;</i>-- <b>C. S. Lewis</b></font><p><a href="http://web.mac.com/thapymptress" target="_blank">What I've been up to</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 12:23:31
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
If I recall correctly, Elayne considers the Two Rivers, and pretty much everything else that used to be Manetheren, to be Andoran, part of her domain.  Her gaining the throne would make the queen of Manetheren an Aes Sedai.  In addition, there seems to be a pretty good chance that she could (and will if given the opportunity) bond Rand as her Warder.  And if Rand continues taking control of country after country, his kingship of &quot;Manatheren&quot; would fulfill the Warder/Aes Sedai tradition.  <br /><br />Perrin and Faile are a classic example of a complimenting partnership, each having traits to balance the other and provide a foundation stronger than a more superficially compatable couple would have.  Other than a twist of RJ-induced fate to keep the readers on their toes, I have no  reason to believe that they won't live happily ever after.  Well, once all the war, death and destruction is over, anyway....


created: 2003-05-04 19:49:41
subject: <b>eh, gross</b>
body:
I thought Thom and Moiraine was bad...but Perrin and Moiraine?  Well, I guess if Rand can do it, so can Moiraine.  More power to you, sister.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-08 08:05:54
subject: <b>Nah.</b>
body:
I think Perrin's more likely to be the Lord of Manetheren, not King. Elayne will skin him if he does.<br /><br />Plus, Moiraine is much too old, much too mature, and way too destined to be with Thom for anything to work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-11 14:15:22
subject: <b>Definetly NOT</b>
body:
I like Faile too ... but your theory is all wrong.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <br />First of all, I belive that Mat is going to be king of Manetheren. We already find out in CoT that Tuon was trained as a damane. And, we know that they can channel. So, Tuon could grow to be an Aes Sedai, bond Mat, and live happily ever after.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />This is my theory on Faile:<br />Faile is heir of Queen Tenobia's throne. (the whole broken crown thing) Tenobia could die, Faile takes over, and Perrin fills the spot of Failes father.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-06-08 21:55:34
subject: <b>There Will NOT Be A Manetheren</b>
body:
Manetheren was part of this age- we`re heading for a New Age.  Egwene will be Queen of Andor which contains the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Perrin and Faile are- and will be Lord and Lady of the Two Rivers in addition to eventually being King {or Prince <br /><br />Consort} and Queen of Saldea. <br />Moiraine and Perrin-never.  Moiraine and Thom-yeah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 13:33:27
subject: <b>It makes sense, but...</b>
body:
I would agree with you.  What you say makes perfect sense, however, I have my own theories about Moiraine and what has happened/will happen conserning her, so I would have to disagree.  Moreso, (sorry if this was already said, in my haste to respond I did not read any of the other comments... =P)  I believe if anyone was to be a King of Manetheran it would have to be Mat.  With the past lives in his head with his newfound battle strategy smarts, and the Band of the Red Hand besides, he would make a better king that Perrin.


created: 2003-07-27 15:07:59
subject: <b>i think...</b>
body:
darkwolf_bloodsbane, I think the hawk in Min's viewing meant Berelain. If you remember, the hawk is the symbol of Mayene. The first time he met her, after saving Faile, she was wearing a crown with a hawk on it. Plus, she's in love with him, as she has stated all too obviously, so I think it would make perfect sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />~Master of the Ashandarei~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Kneel to the Lord Nae'blis or you will be knelt.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> The Dark One's own luck... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />If you need a friend, look no further!! I like having friends...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-10 12:25:10
subject: <b>King of Saldaea</b>
body:
Faile will not die.  She will inherit the broken crown, and Perrin will be her king.  Manetheren will rise as a city, but will be part of Andor, Ruled by Elayne (AS), with Rand as her King.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A new age is soon to come, borne squarely upon the shoulders of the Dragon Reborn.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 22:45:50
subject: <b>Yeah! This is SO RIGHT!!</b>
body:
They can have a joint wedding with Noal Charin, who is getting married to Logain!  With Hurin as best man!


created: 2005-04-27 16:48:53
subject: <b>ew?</b>
body:
if u think perrin and moiraine is ew, think about thom (anicient decrepid, white haired gnarled OLD man) and moiraine (younglooking sexy hot babe) gross!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-14 11:07:57
subject: <b>If the answer is yes...</b>
body:
...then what are the princes and princesses of Manetheren going to be: Channeling were-wolves??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Was'up</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-07 21:05:17
subject: <b>Not so much</b>
body:
but a big thumbs up for going out on a limb.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-26 16:09:06
subject: <b>Mat</b>
body:
Mat is the one who will revive Manetheren.  Perrin and Moiraine would be odd, not gross, just...odd.  Mat will be bonded to Tuon.  Tuon will be close enough to being aes sedai and Mat is probably Manetheren's last king reborn- that memory appeared before he went through the ter'angreal, after he was freed from Shadar Logoth.  Perrin will probably become the king of Saldaea, and Thom will get Moiraine,unpleasent though it may be.


created: 2006-09-09 06:48:49
subject: <b>Jofraz...</b>
body:
Did you put Egwene as queen of Andor as a typo? Not to sure because I saw sig... if not typo could you elaborate on the Egwene queen of Andor thing? Pretty sure thats Elayne myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-07 09:35:54
subject: <b>Queen Moiraine</b>
body:
If Moiraine is going to end up a Queen it would surely be as Queen of Cairhien, rather than Manethren, what with her having probably the best claim to the throne. I know Rand has thrown a towel over the Sun Throne with Elayne's name on it, but it seems unlikely to me that this will ever pan out.


created: 2001-09-05 04:55:20
subject: <b>Sorry, dont buy it.</b>
body:
Well, i just cant swallow it. If Mat was Amalasan reborn, he would have the spark instead of the ability to learn, at least by your logic. Also, If he really was Amalasan, we would have seen more evidence towards it and his purpose would have been channeling of some sort. Oh, and wasnt it Amalasan's army that stormed TV in response to his being captured? I could be wrong, but i'm almost sure of it. Someone, please set the record straight?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 08:42:58
subject: <b>My theory</b>
body:
I think that Logain was GA during previous life. Reason for that is that he wanted to use name Guaire, when he was traveling with Siuan&amp;Co to Salidar. Besides to me he would be much better candidate than Mat.<br />The guide says that when GA was captured by AS, 2 persons leaded their armies against TA. One was a male and another was a woman. I think that Mat could have been that man. It would mean that his role is always to be general for Dragons including false dragons.<br /><br />&quot;Siuan had been traveling as Mara, Leane as Amaena, and Logain had taken the name Dalyn, after Siuan convinced him Guaire was a fools's choice.&quot; (FoH, Fanning the Sparks, 26)<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-09-05 12:12:28
subject: <b>Perrin isn't Hawkwing, and Mat's not Amalasan</b>
body:
Perrin Aybara may be Aemon al'Thor, but he's not Hawkwing.  Hawkwing and Perrin were in the same place together, Falme.<br /><br />Mat is NOT Guaire Amalasan.  Although I like the reference to the pass and the loss to Artur Hawkwing.  But I don't think it means he's Amalsan; Hawkwing fought the kings of nations, too.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 17:43:30
subject: <b>Matt isn't always Ta'veren</b>
body:
I think that Mat is a generic general that only occasionally apperars as Ta'verin.  He has at least two different acounts of fighting in the Trolloc wars, two accounts serving Manetherin, one of fighting Hawkwing, and several different accounts of the sea folk.  If I remember properly, Mat has also been a general in the service of Artur Halkwing.  Mat has probably been reborn more often then most people, except for the generic innkeeper and the generic farmer.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-05 19:34:18
subject: <b>Mat as Lieutenant to Guire</b>
body:
If Mat, in a previous life, was Guire's lieutenant, this would fit with him fighting Artur Hawkwing at a pass and fit with the man leading the army against Tar Valon, assuming both quotes are valid. <br />I seriously doubt Mat can channel, especially with the foxhead medallion.  Not only would that *prevent* him from channeling, it also make him look like he's the anti-One Power guy. <br /><br />Besides all that, he's got more than one general in his past.  He's commanded LOTS of different forces.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 19:41:53
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
i like the idea that Logain was once GA<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 20:10:29
subject: <b>Now people...</b>
body:
Mat isn't all those people reborn.  All those memories he has aren't his past lives.  They are memories of generals and such that the Ael'finn bestowed upon him.  He can't be all those people reborn.  I'm fairly certain that he has memories from two perspectives of the same battle.  If someone finds the exact quote please type it up.  As for Logain being Guaire I'd be more comfortable with.  But I think Logaine wanting to call himself Guaire is either his sense of humor, his sense of irony, or sense of pride at work.  Not RJ dropping a hint that he is GA reborn.<br /><br />P.S.  I love how you can just look to the Falme scene to disprove most &quot;So-n-so is That Guy reborn&quot; theories.  <br /><br />


created: 2001-09-06 19:55:43
subject: <b>Where does it say Guaire was ta'veren?</b>
body:
Three factors count in his favour for people following him:<br />1. He was charismatic.<br />2. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn.<br />3. He was a great captain, and won lots of battles.<br />They in themself would inspire people to follow him, no need for <i>ta'veren</i>.<br /><br />Also Guaire's army collapsed quickly not just because he was taken, but also because Hawkwing hit him hard at his heart when all of Guaire's forces were out of position and unprepared, nearly routing them in half an hour.<br /><br />Plus if <i>ta'veren</i>-power of Mat and Perrin was what let Hawkwing to not lose to Guaire, then since Hawkwing won many battles against Guaire, Guaire should have won some against Hawkwing too.<br /><br />Nor is it a given that Mat and Perrin are reborn <i>ta'veren</i>s from the past.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 21:41:46
subject: <b>Hero's know the past...</b>
body:
In the battle at Falme, Hawkwing addressed Rand as LTT.  I think that if Mat or Perrin were a hero or ta'varen reborn, the HotH would have recognized that fact, and addressed them as such.  On the other hand, there is the fact that the only person Hawkwing specifically told that he might one day join their ranks was Hurin.


created: 2001-09-07 08:04:29
subject: <b>a rant about crap theorys</b>
body:
another example of a really stupid theory getting printed , who said Ta`varen are reborn ??? heroes are and occasionally they are ta`varen because the weave of the pattern dictates it. People don`t have to be ta`vaern all their lives !!! Perrin is not Hawkwing !!! he is Perrin the wolfbrother a hero who probably can`t be remembered from another age or a new hero !! MAT cannot channel or Booby j would have told us in the books , what do you think the purpose of an author is if you have to imagine and make up large parts of the books!! Mat is the son of  battles , the trickster , the gambler and probably another old hero , his memories may be of his anssestors but a heroes soul does not get reincarnated by blood as Rand proves. Everyone in the book does not ahve to be a reborn hero of someone else we`ve heard of in the books i`m sure there is a lot of history that we`ve never heard about + the characters in the book can`t remember!!! WISE UP !!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> follower of The Church Of The Probable Opinions&#169; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> marked with the dreaded LVIII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> smoker of the big choo choo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> bearer of the monolith <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> died from the shock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> 4th Letter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 15:18:54
subject: <b>I submitted a theory on that</b>
body:
I also always thought the Perrin was King Aemon.  In fact...I sent in a theory to the guys who run this page about it, but it never got posted.  It just seems so obvious.  sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />a wotmainac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />go<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Kiss a Flaming Trolloc<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 13:07:27
subject: <b>Thanks all.</b>
body:
well, mostly all. I like the constructive reasoning of why my theory is wrong. But, I really didn't expect to get a flaming rant about theories in general. This posting was, after all, for fun. And I'm sure a lot of people post theories just for fun...they all aren't as obvious as the Taimandred or &quot;What is Verin up to&quot; thoeries. So, hey, LIGHTEN UP!!! <br />Let's not ruin wotmania time, let's make it great. So, be creative and grab your favorite WoT book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Amp Ashaman<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Software Analyst <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's clean...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;You are taking your first step into a larger world.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 14:21:11
subject: <b>::sigh::</b>
body:
higher up on the blackboard, somebody said ' Not all Ta'evern are people Reborn '. I think it goes even further, that very few of the characters in WoT are people Reborn. <br />Some people say Mat is Hawking Reborn. The fact that discounts the Gaidan/Olver theory discounts this one as well. If Hawking's soul was in Mat, it couldnt have appeared at Falme. Another thing. I dont think Aemon was selected to be bound to the Wheel. Gee, hes brave, and he was a great King, but that doesnt make him special. And that moron who said Mat was GA Reborn, is even sillier, because GA was a reincarnated of the Dragon, and he didnt do anything special enough to be bound to the wheel.<br /><br />And dont bring up any goddam ' Taimodread ' theories ok? that theory was disproved with a single paragraph in WH. SO let it go. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-09-09 03:34:35
subject: <b>Not posible</b>
body:
If we can al recall most of the False Dragons that have appeared on the series are people who can channel.<br />And I don't mean that they can learn to channel but are born with the ability in them so they channel eventually. Take into consideration why a person would declare himself the Dragon Reborn if he can't channel. Guaire was a very powerful channeler but he didn't have anybody to teach him how to channel so he had to be born with the ability. Since the souls are being reborn into new bodies, they retain their innate abilities (channeling saidin or saidar hence making them female or male), this means that if you have the ability you will always have the ability but if you can learn then you would always have to learn how to channel, so I very much doubt that Mat is Guaire reborn.


created: 2001-09-09 15:12:19
subject: <b>what a dumb theory</b>
body:
All channelers since the AOL have been those with the spark, there has never been anyone to teach others. And there is no evidence that he was ever taveren, if you recall, some where in the early books, Moraine or Siuan stated that there have always been men who have always been willing to follow false dragons. He was not taveren. <br />   Where the hell did you get the idea that Perrin is Autur Hawking? I have read the books several times and there is no evidence for this.


created: 2001-09-16 15:40:29
subject: <b>Perrin Artur Hawkwing?</b>
body:
Ok first of all it has already been established in  TGH that you can't be both reborn and called by the horn.  When Mat first uses the horn Artur comes, he recogizes Rand as being Lews, but Lews doesn't respond to the hor.... Because he has been REBORN, perrin can't be Artur Hawkwing Because Artur answered the call.  Really don't have an opionon about the Mat theroy except that I myself am certain that he CANNOT channel.


created: 2001-09-16 21:41:08
subject: <b>Are You Stupid</b>
body:
Its obvious that perrin is not Artur Simply for the falme account. and that automaticly shoots a large whole in your credibilaty. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 23:03:10
subject: <b>Mat isn't anyone specific</b>
body:
mat is not anyone specific reborn.  here is how it all lays out.  mat has 2 connections to times long ago:<br />1)he's linked to the horn of valere, and thus linked to the force that can call heroes of the wheel.<br />2)the dagger from shadar logoth.  its power killed a people, and heroes came from there before mordeth's time.<br /><br />now...THINK PEOPLE...when did mat's memories start.  now before everyone says the ter'angreal, let me say you are wrong.  mats memories started after the aes sedai removed the dagger from him.  its true.  he has a memory in the middle, and when he wakes up he remembers a battle.  Now considering the fact that 3rd age aes sedai are idiots with no clue what their doing, i believe that while severing the link with one power, the aes sedai morons touched his link with a similar power (the horn), and brought aspects of all of the heroes who had not yet been reborn (all the male ones that is) through his link, putting them squarely in mat, however they screwed up even in this.  they only got it half way through.  so he got holes in his memories, where most of the memories of the heroes would be (he got a few despite their idiocy).  later, in the second doorway ter'angreal, the finn finished the aes sedai started, and gave him the memories (his asked them to fill the holes in his memories ... remember?) complete with battle skillsand battle knowledge.<br /><br />this explains why his memories overlap, and even why the start at one place and end at another.  he only got the most recent lives of the heroes.  well thats my theory.  you can mail me at the given adress, or at: metallica_man2@wotmania.com<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />mr. emoticon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 09:55:13
subject: <b>Mat's medallion and the Horn of Valere</b>
body:
i love this theory!  it has a great many points and i'm at least 60% convinced in its validity.  however, the medallion cannot keep Mat from channeling.  it only works on female channelers.  Rhavin smoked Mat in TFOH, thus giving evidence that the medallion cannot effect male channelers.  other than this, though, i think the whole comparison between mat and perrin, guaire and artur to be right on track!  the fact that they are currently great at leading men into battle totally lends credence to them being past generals reborn.  however, if this is true, then how could the horn of valere call artur and co. during TGH?  i thought that birgitte said they were tied to the horn UNTIL spun out by the pattern?  if mat and perrin are guaire and artur, then wouldn't it be impossible for the horn to call out artur and guaire?


created: 2001-10-12 17:11:09
subject: <b>Olver Cain</b>
body:
Before everyone shouts at me &quot;Falme,&quot; I would like to make a of point of saying that this post will not be supporting the theory that olver and cain are one and the same, but merely stating how falme does not disqualify it (at least not completely<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />). <br />righto...lets get started<br />we know that gaidal cain was at falme while olver was alive.  we know that the  can be reborn or take a living body.  we know that olver's face was described exactly the same way cain's was.  we know that despite some foolish talk about the  taking the body of someone who s on the brink of , this is never hinted to in any way (in short you don't need to almost die for the  to take your body)<br /><br />so...if cain did take a body instead of getting reborn, who better than someone who looks exactly like him?  Also the way he and birgitte change the way that they act towards eachother might also support it.  I'm not saying its true or right, just that it is at the very lest, slimly possible.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />a wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 04:49:52
subject: <b>mat's medallion DOES stop saidin...</b>
body:
um... i just want to say that we do have proof that mat's medallion stops saidin. remember in LOC when he's in salidar during the festival celebrating egwene's raising as amyrlin? remember how he danced with halima (who we know to be aran'gar, who we know to be a male channeler in a female body) and thought of how she kept trying to lead? and when mat walked away from her, his medallion goes cold for a brief instant. when he turns around to find who channeled at him, he just sees halima standing there staring at him, stunned. thus, we can reason that saidin can be blocked by mat's medallion. if you'll remember, in the fires of heaven, we don't know whether mat was killed by rahvin or not. the only person we have evidence of being smoked by rahvin is asmodean, who is laying, charred and almost indistinguishable, ten paces from his boots. for all we know, mat could've been struck down by one of the present darkfriends or trollocs (or even getting nailed by one of the exploding chunks of stone from the collapsing wall, with his luck). so, really, it's not conclusive proof.<br /><br />to at least be able to claim staying on topic, i'll say this: we don't know that lews therin is a hero, or even connected to the horn (except that he is,  presumably, often present when it's blown). so, this also can't be used to claim any kind of certainty whether the horn can summon heroes who've been spun out. and, as has been noted in TGH, there aren't many heroes (around 100) bound to the horn, and most (if not all) of those are constantly remembered in stories, from age to age, where guaire amalasan is not a highly known person in the present age, except by scholars and aes sedai, which leads me to believe he's not one of the heroes bound to the horn, and thus isn't even reborn as often as they are (which is very infrequently), so i doubt mat can be guaire reborn. <br /><br />i think mat and perrin are just people who have a lot of similarities to the great heroes. and if you think about it, to be considered any kind of hero (which i don't doubt mat and perrin are), you probably have to exibit quite a few things in common with the heroes bound to the horn, so it's probably not even worth noting. but that's just my opinion.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />um... that was way longer than i intended. ah, well.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-23 14:29:32
subject: <b>Perrin and Mat aren't reborn</b>
body:
When Mat blew the horn, didn't both of those heroes appear? How can they be there if they are also Mat and Perrin? They couldn't coexist because Lews Therrin wasn't among the heroes of the Horn.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-24 03:43:30
subject: <b>but</b>
body:
we don't know that lews therin is a hero of the horn. all we know is that hawkwing recognized lews therin's soul, which doesn't mean anything, since we know so little about the horn.


created: 2001-10-25 16:38:12
subject: <b>Logain Is Guaire</b>
body:
I agree with the above theory. As for the one posted here, it is ridiculous. Mat can't channel, and hawkwing has not been reborn yet. Guare was not at Falme, thus he could have been reborn (Logain). As for Olver, time is strange in the World of Dreams where the heros stay. At Falme, they did not exist wholly in the real world, but in a kind of dual dimension. Thus they could not be killed by the one power or traditional weapons. This implies they were still partially in the World of Dreams, allowing for the time lag between Gaidal and Olver. Birgitte does a good job setting up the possibility in her explanations of time there. As far as Jordan has let us know, it is possible for Cain to be spotted in the World of Dreams (falme) after he has been reborn. Though not likely too many years. Thus Olver is still a child.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Easing The Badger<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 23:55:02
subject: <b>Here's a question for ya</b>
body:
Just out of curiosity....why the hell does everyone take it for granted that Guaire Amalsaan(or however you spell it) is a hero tied to the wheel?!?  He was a false dragon who caused a hell of a lot of destrucion.  He didn't do anything good.  So why assume he's a hero reborn?<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />the wandering wolfbrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />the wandering cowbrother?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 03:22:33
subject: <b>bad bad boy....</b>
body:
your theories are the worst kind of drivel and are only here to confuse people..... neither mat nor perrin are anyone reborn..... Mat wasnt all those people in his head,  he only has their memories.... he also cannot channel, but NOT because of the medallion... if you refer back to book five,  Mat is killed by Rahvin using saidin, which means? anyone? anyone?  THE MEDALLION DOESN'T BLOCK SAIDIN  ONLY SAIDAR!!!!!  read the damn books more closely people!!! and Perrin,  Hawkwing,  Falme.... 'nough said


created: 2002-02-10 12:45:36
subject: <b>hahaha</b>
body:
good point, whitecloak. arangar came back as a woman, apparantly channeling saidar, not saidin ... fox-head only thwarts saidar as Rand concludes from the smoking medallion when Mat died.<br /><br />i also think everybody elese is wrong about Mat ... he's completely different, as is Perrin, from all other reborns in the wheel. Mat has memories of everybody from everytime from everywhere, combine that with his supreme luck at being taveren and he's now the biggest game threat to RandLand. Perrin is a wolfbrother, something BARELY seen since the the oldest of times, before the AoL.<br /><br />neither channel. neither are reborn.


created: 2002-02-19 20:40:44
subject: <b>Have you read &quot;The Great Hunt&quot;!?</b>
body:
First of all, it is completely impossible for Perrin to be Artur Hawkwing!  In tGH Artur is called back by the Horn.  Since the heroes' souls that come to the horn(that aren't presently reborn) reside in Tel'aran'rhiod, it is not possible for perrin to be Artur.  Are you suggesting that Perrin faught along-side his soul against the Seanchan at Falme?  I know this doesn't have much to do with your actual theaory, but it was such a huge mistake, and you were so &quot;possative&quot;, I felt I needed to point out the obvious.  As far as your theory goes; If Mat was Guaire then he would have the &quot;spark&quot; in-born.  Its as simple as that.  And the spark has nothing to do with luck.  Also, we know the Medallion has nothing to do with Saidin so it couldn't be keeping the Power at bay.  Suggestion- Read the books more closely and do better research when forming theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-17 16:01:17
subject: <b>on medallions and heroes</b>
body:
two things I'd like to say; I hope it is generally accepted that aran'gar channels saidin because when she goes to save mogeheiden a) mogeheiden cannot see her weaves. b) the removal of the a'dam is painful c) aran'gar only approaches mogheiden to help her AFTER logain is gone. so that proves that aran'dar channels saidin for the sceptics now, mat's medallion affects saidin because of the event already described in salidar however many people seem to think that when he died in camelyn it was the one power that killed him but as we can see in many of the battles involving the one power the weaves don't need to affect the victim directly to kill the victim (such as when the seanchean decimate the ebour darian soldiers in book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />. now for the second thing I don't know whether any of you remember but Perrin is frequently associated to a bannerman ( arthur hawking refers to perrin as the bannerman; and after the two rivers battles someone likens his courage to that of a bannerman *I think it's faile<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> now I don't think RJ would add this for no reason so I believe that perrin is actually bound to the wheel maybe not as a hero of the horn.. but he is most probably bound, now that I've pissed you all off with my rambling I'll leave you to flame.....


created: 2002-04-20 10:09:47
subject: <b>Read this whitecloak!</b>
body:
Perrin's definetely not AH. We know that from falme. Good point whitecloak. However, he's definitely reborn. Lanfear indicates that in his dream in TDR. He has always carried the axe where AH uses a sword.<br /><br />As for Mat, The Aelfinn gives us the answer in TSR, claiming he's the son of battles and a trickster, indicating that they know him. If he is as old as they are, he must be reborn. I like the notion that he might have been one of AH's generals or a general opposing him. Whatever the case might be, he's definitely reborn and no one will know certainly who he is unless there's a direct indication from RJ.


created: 2002-06-13 14:13:58
subject: <b>Whitecloak buddy....c'mon</b>
body:
Look: Mat's medallion DOES prevent DIRECT FLOWS of saidin (and obviously saidar but even you know that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) from affecting him. The reason that Ravhin's lightining attack hurt him is because those were lightning bolts created FROM saidin, rather than direct flows being directed at him. An equivalent example of this regarding saidar was when an Aes Sedai in Salidar (forget who) was testing out the medallion's limits and succeeded when she picked up a chair with the Power and threw it at him....same thing as with the lightning attack.<br /><br />So, why don't you take your own advice, &quot;read the damn books more closely&quot; (especially the aforementioned Halima in Salidar scene)and walk in the Light.<br /><br />                     &quot; 'nough said &quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-13 20:24:46
subject: <b>Reading too much into it</b>
body:
From the beginning, Moiraine says that the old blood runs strong in Mat.  All it really is, I think, is just the old blood singing.  If there's evidence of a specific reincarnation, it's in tDR, when Mat's being Healed.  He was the commander (I don't think any specific name) of the Heart Guard during the fall of Manetheren.  To that identity was added the memories of other generals of other times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You me when I think really think about it<br />    Are the same&quot; Ikkyu Sojun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Joy is in the ears that hear,<br />    Not in the mouth that speaks.&quot; Giantish saying <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 03:33:18
subject: <b>Clairification on Ta'veren</b>
body:
Ta'veren-ness isn't related to the soul.  The Wheel chooses who is to be Ta'veren and when.  Some souls (like the Dragon's) are more predispositioned to be Ta'veren but not nessesarily are always.  Rand, Perrin, and Mat didn't become Ta'veren until they were in their teens.  Perrin and Mat don't nessesarily have to be important people in their past lives to be Ta'veren today.  Rand of course was.  In an interview with RJ he said that the Wheel wasn't intellegent but more of a &quot;fuzzy-logic device.&quot;  So what probably happened is that the Wheel relized that Tarmon Gaidon was approching and found Rand relized that he wouldn't be able to do it on his own and so it chose the people closest to him to be Ta'veren.  Tam is out because he is too old, so the only other people that he is close to are Egwene, Mat, and Perrin his childhood friends.  Egwene is destined for other things, so Mat and Perrin are made Ta'veren to assist and help Rand.  Like the Fade said before he tried to kill Mat, &quot;Cut one leg of the Tripod and all falls down.&quot; (or something similar, in tGH).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 23:43:33
subject: <b>Guire errrr... think not</b>
body:
as we all know Perrin had the people of emonds (Aemon's field) flock to him under the old ,mantheren banner. people flocked to him as quickly as mat. and in general all mats memories come in the general guise of mat being a great general or war hero but w/o the ability to channel


created: 2002-09-22 14:50:21
subject: <b>Mat's memories</b>
body:
umm....well I disagree about a lot of your theory.  One big point that I think you got mixed up is that the memories in Mat's head aren't his from a previous life.  He got the memoried from the....Elfinn? Anyways, one of those people. They had collected those memories from people who have entered the ter'angreal previously.  Now most people are smart enough to stay away from a ter'angreal so the people whose memories Mat got were of heroes, and brave people who were...well curious enough to go in....Remember Mat asked for the holes in his memories to be filled up.  He didn't ask for his OWN memories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/16885.gif" /><br /><br /> <font color="purple"><i>Take me down...to Funky Town!</i> </font><br /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-12 09:21:34
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Mat and everyone do get reborn over and over, but not necessarily as taveren. <br />Birgitte is a hero of horn and has been reborn several times<br />Mat can't channel<br />He remembers past lives fighting against Hawkwing (on the side of the dragon I would hope, which I think is a nice carry over to the present)<br />He remembers standing beside King Aemon before Manetheren is destroyed<br />If Egwene is Ellisandre (Maneth's queen, the rose whatever her name is) then Gawyn is Aemon (off the topic)<br />I think Perrin and Mats purpose is to help out the dragon every time he shows up<br />ALso if hawkwing is so good, why wasn;t he reborn in time to face TG on a fulltime basis not just by horncall.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Daughter of the Ten Moons<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Mat's right hand girl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Even dolls have a limit, and Timmy has reached his. What he needs right now is a big Martimmy&quot;<br />                - Timmy, to his Princess</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 12:42:47
subject: <b>Whitecloak</b>
body:
I agree with P floyd in that the medallion blocks saidin's flows. Also Whitecloak stated that Halima came back as a woman and channeled saidar? And you tell us to read the books more closely. If you HAD you would have known that channeling is linked to the soul, not to the body. Halima is Balthamael brought back, and he channeled Saidin. His soul is linked to Saidin. Therefore, despite the fact that he's a friggin woman now, He still has the same soul and therefore still channels Saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 12:45:43
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
My bad, it was bloody ashes who said that Halima was channeling Saidar. SOrry Whitecloak but your theory's still wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 23:32:34
subject: <b>omg</b>
body:
MAT AND PERRIN ARE NOT REBORN HEROES!!!!!that would suck. mat and perrin should add to the wheel, like Hurin will...hehehe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 13:22:52
subject: <b>Mat is Hawkwing</b>
body:
I think your theory falis for one major reason. Perrin cannot be Hawkwing. There is nowhere near any evidence at all that the could be, on the other hand there is a very good chance that Mat could be Hawkwing. He is the great general, and who said that the memories in his head are ones from his own times in the wheel. I think that knowing that he must marry the Seanchan high princess, for lack of a better word, there are many things that point to him being Hawkwing and nothing at all pointing towards Perrin. And on the subject of channeling I do not believe that RJ would do something like that. it would be illogical to have Mat channel for two major reasons, one we dont need to channeling men as main characters and two i dont think he would have any followers if he started to channel and if his luck was a manifestation of his ability to channel and the fox head holds it at bay then his luck would leave him whenever he wore the medallion and we know that dosent happen so your theory would not work.


created: 2003-10-30 12:08:55
subject: <b>WHY ARGUE THAT LTT IS A HERO?</b>
body:
okay, take LTT out of discussion as a hero for the horn. The horn calls heroes back to fight TG right? WHO HAS TO BE AT THE LAST BATTLE, WHATEVER INCARNATION HE IS IN?


created: 2003-11-11 19:05:54
subject: <b>mat may be Aemon</b>
body:
There is a possibility that Mat, not Perrin, may be Aemon Al'caar Al'thorin. <br /> <br />The first time he really battles trollocs (on the road to whitebridge), while Rand and Perrin yell &quot;Manetheren&quot;, Mat yells &quot;Carai an Caldazar. Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande&quot; The first is the battle cry of Manetheren. The second, however, is the personal battlecry of her king.  Moiraine says that on pg. 271 of TEotW. <br /><br />Mat is the one who is associated with the old blood. On that same page it is Mat and Egwene Moiraine looks at when she says that the old blood still sings. <br /><br />Later on at the Eye Mat yells in the Old Tongue &quot;Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande! Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar! Al Ellisande!&quot; (The last is translated as &quot;Death holds no fear in my heart&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  It should be noted that the battlecry he favors is that of Manetheren's KING - &quot;For the honor of the Rose of the Sun&quot; refers to Eldrene. <br /><br />In the flashback he has after the healing in Tar Valon, he remembers Manetheren's last stand where Aemon died.  This passage is ambiguous because he is leading the Heartguard like a general such as Bryne would. It is possible, however, that Aemon himself led it. After fighting Galad and Gawyn soon after this flashback, he absently says he is from Manetheren. <br /><br />Perrin never did any of this - speak the Old Tongue, remember the battle of Aemon's death, or momentarily forget that Manetheren is now the Two Rivers. An important thing to remember is that all these evidences are from BEFORE the incident with the Finns in Rhuidean, and therefore before his head was stuffed with memories not his own. Some were even before the dagger came into his possession. <br /><br />It is possible that he is simply descended from Aemon (Al'caar Al'thorin sounds pretty close to Cauthon) or has the old blood strong in him, but Perrin shows few traits that directly connect him to Aemon other than the revival of Manetheren. But Tuon has come to revive Hawkwing's empire and it is doubtful, though not impossible, that she is his reincarnation. <br /><br />I may be insane, but I think that this evidence is credible enough to support my theory.<br /><br />On a side note - If Mat IS Aemon, could Tuon be Eldrene? Hmmm........interesting.


created: 2005-05-23 13:27:47
subject: <b>Woah.</b>
body:
Good lord, talk about flaming a theory!<br /><br />I, personally, like the idea of Mat being Guaire Amalasan. (Heck, the name even sounds like him, just as you can tell Hawkwing is a big buff guy like Perrin just by the names.) It's not ludicrous at all.<br /><br />However, I think that all your evidence to support this is...well...disagreeable. Your saying Mat can channel and that the memories he recieved from the Finns are his past lives. That's where it unravels.<br /><br />For channeling, the only evidence of this in Mat is that he gets goosebumps like Rand. That's not true. He only gets them when a woman is channeling directly at him, or when a woman who can channel is really close to him. That's just because he's paranoid of the Power. If he could channel, then he would be able to feel goosebumps whenever a woman embraced the Source, let alone touched him directly.<br /><br />And as for the memories being of his past lives...they're not. Jordan himself has stated they were just memories from men who had entered the doorway long ago.<br /><br />And some other things to clear up...<br /><br />Mat NEVER served under Hawkwing. EVER, in ANY of his memories. He HATED Hawkwing in all memories that had anything at all to do with the man. Several times he had lost to him. He himself had said &quot;Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with&quot;.<br /><br />Perrin isn't Aemon reborn. He has no interest at all in Manetheren. He's Lord Perrin Aybara of the TWO RIVERS. And as for the flag... keep in mind that the Red Eagle isn't the ONLY flag he flies, and that just because the army wouldn't put it down, and then because Faile told him to keep it as a diversion. Personally, I think that Perrin will refound Manetheren, but Mat will be the one to rule it, while Perrin steps up and rules Saldaea.<br /><br />Mat can be Aemon reborn. In the Fires of Heaven, Moiraine told Mat (when he met up with Rand to discuss the Band) that it was said that Aemon himself led Shen an Calhar against the final Trolloc attack of Manetheren. We know from his memory after being healed that he was there, at the final attack, and IN COMMAND, although it NEVER said AS WHAT - a general serving his king, or the king himself. So if Moiraine is right, and Aemon did lead Shen an Calhar himself in the final attack, then that was Mat. If she's wrong, than he was a no-name general (which doesn't seem likely, since so much emphasis is placed on it). We also know that he's shouted, at numerous occasions, the PERSONAL BATTLE CRY of Aemon. And, the real clincher for me: the Band has an UNNATURAL link to Mat, BEYOND TA'VEREN. Egwene commented on this in Path of Daggers, when Talmanes said the Band had a feeling that Mat needed them. When Moiraine looked at Mat AND Egwene, she only looked at Egwene because Egwene had said she &quot;almost understood it.&quot; Later on, the same happens for ALL the ta'veren - whenever they hear the Old Tongue (Rand, Perrin, even Egwene and Nynaeve) they ALMOST understand it, and feel that they SHOULD understand it.


created: 2006-06-23 17:58:53
subject: <b>Geting back to...</b>
body:
...the whole is Lews Therin a Hero Of The Horn disscusion.<br /><br />    Sure we know that Lews Therin did some good things in his first lifetime, but he also did alot of awful things too! Like killing all his kin, remeber? Just like what someone said before about Guaire Amalsaan, Lews Therin caused alot of destrution, so therefore he's not a Hero Of The Horn. <br />    However, we do know that Lews Therin gets reborn(duh!), but im just saying i dont think the Horn Of Valere spun him back out into the Pattern.I think that since Lews Therin is so much more important than ALL the Heros of the Horn put together,some other power brought him back into the world to fight the Shadow. <br />    It says in the Dragon will be reborn in the time of mankind's greatest need, to save them and destroy them.I think it's that need that keeps pulling Lews Therin's soul back into the world again and again. Moiraine said in the first book, &quot;Need is the key and there can be no greater need than ours.&quot; Sure that was in referecnce to finding the Eye Of The World, but it could apply here too.   <br />    So, in conclusion, Rand/Lews Therin is not a Hero Of The Horn, but gets spun out into the Pattern by something more powerful, the people's NEED of a hero. <br /><br />Sorry that was longer than i thought but there you go. Feel free to tear my theory apart!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-11-02 14:51:15
subject: <b>mat isn't a hero of the horn</b>
body:
&quot;Mat gaped at them as they reigned in before him and others. 'Is this...? Is this all of you?' They were little more than a  hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be.'&quot; (The Great Hunt, The Grave Is No Bar to My Call: 660).<br /><br />How would Rand know that there were only about 100 heroes when Mat didn't? We know that Rand was tied to the horn, in fact the heroes talk to him as to an old friend, but there is nothing to indicate that Mat is a hero; this passage suggest that Mat was not a hero of the horn at all (not any of the people you mentioned), and unless someone can thing of a good reason why Mat wouldn't know the number of heroes when Rand did and why they only converse with Rand, I think we can assume that Mat is not any hero of the horn reborn.


created: 2001-09-05 15:22:33
subject: <b>Demandred is not with the Borderlanders</b>
body:
There have been too many references that he is in the South... or rather events in the South have Demandred written all over them.  He's either with the White Cloaks or Masema and the Dragonsworn, both groups of which are giving the Dragon a bad name.  My gut feeling is he's mixed in with the Dragonsworn.  The overzealous behavior of that group suggests that someone is stirring them up beyond normal reason.


created: 2001-09-05 16:36:16
subject: <b>Very good theory!</b>
body:
I have to say that this the most convincing anti-taimandred theory I have read.<br />Before reading it I still believed that Taim is Demandred, but now I am not so sure anymore. It still does not explain Taim's &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; and &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; comments, however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 16:54:45
subject: <b>Tamandred</b>
body:
Its fairly obvious that Demandred is Tam.... ^^<br /><br />I'd have to say Demandred is with the Whitecloaks. With all the confusion over their defeats and the death of Neill, it wouldn't be to hard to slip in. <br /><br />


created: 2001-09-05 18:34:41
subject: <b>Good theory but it has holes</b>
body:
First of all you keep asking why Demandred would take this position as Taim and here is your answer;  <br />THE DARK ONE TOLD HIM TO.  Which is all stated quite clearly at the beginning and ending of book six. <br /> &quot;Have I not done well Great Lord&quot;-Demandred.   What do you think he's talking about? <br /> I won't get into the debate but there is a mountain of evidence that Taim is Demandred and only one piece of<br /> evidence that he is not.  Since Demandred didn't recognize an Ashaman I guess there is no possible way<br /> he could be Taim.  That's just ridiculous.


created: 2001-09-05 18:48:33
subject: <b>Aaaaaargh! Taimandred fools!</b>
body:
Who is STILL disagreeing with this! In WH they are TWO SEPERATE PEOPLE AND PROVED IN DEMANDRED'S POV!!!<br /><br />As to explaining Taim's comments and behavior, Demandred is working with Taim. That was proved in Demandred's PoV too. Now Taim has probably been tutored by Demandred. My reason for this is his AoL knowledge and the fact that he has discovered finding other channelers, Compulsion, and a hell of a lot he shouldn't know. <br /><br />But another debate we should be having is is that was Taim free from the taint? He survived a lot longer than others and is a Darkfriend after all....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 19:37:28
subject: <b>Personally....</b>
body:
i think that Demandred is Weirmon.(s? ive been in the pub!) He played a small part in Lord of Chaos (it is plain to me that Demandred was in there aside from the start, finish and his little pov bit)<br />Weirmon was in Caemlyn and has spent a lot of his time in the south spreading chaos...<br /><br />just my idea....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 22:22:57
subject: <b>The cuendiler seal</b>
body:
If Taim is Demandred why would he give Rand one of the seals to the DO's prison. You would think that he would just have broken it when he had a chance instead of giving it to the one person who is dangerous to the DO. I don't believe the DO would have allowed Demendred to give it to Rand. In the books it seems Demendred is the DO's little kissass and does whatever he is told.<br /><br />I just thought I would throw that into the heated debate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 23:15:18
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but until I read in book ten a section where Taim and Demandred are in the same room with other people and are known as two different people, I'm going to believe that they are the same person.<br /><br />You know, we've had a couple boring books so far, I bet you RJ is just setting us up for a book where everything we've been waiting for is just thrown in our faces, and all the waiting will be over.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-06 03:18:26
subject: <b>A Response</b>
body:
Thanks all for your comments. I'm not going to respond to everything, but I did want to give a response to Riselle's post... I disagree that the DO specifically told Demandred to take Taim's identity and lead the Black Tower... that's just not in keeping with how the DO handles his forces. He's never that specific with his Chosen. He gives them general directives (i.e. &quot;LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE&quot; ), but it is up to the Forsaken to choose how to carry out those objectives, and in this case, to even figure out what exactly the objective means. This is what keeps the Forsaken in competition for Nae'blis. If the DO would give each of them specific instructions to carry out, there wouldn't be much of a game among the Forsaken. Either they do exactly what the Great Lord tells them, or they don't. We've seen too many Forsaken PoV's to know that this is not how things work among the Chosen. I don't doubt that Demandred's conversations with the DO in LoC were probably more extensive than we saw, and undoubtedly the DO was pleased with what Demandred had accomplished, but I don't think any specific instructions were given. It's up to each of the Forsaken to choose how to play the game.<br /><br />To ursidae - I agree, that &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; comment still has me wondering... To me, this was the only thing that <i>ever</i> lent <i>any</i> credence to the Taimandred theory... I just don't think it's a strong enough piece of evidence to convict though. I've read several plausible theories about it, but nothing that strikes me as likely. The one I like the best so far is that Taim was simply making a judgment about the Aiel surrounding Rand... running, fetching, generally doing his bidding... as compared to what Aiel were supposed to be... bloodthirsty savages who could kill as easy as they breathe, and take more pleasure from the killing. To one who didn't know, these would hardly seem like the Aiel they were expecting. Many people probably wondered if these were the same Aiel who came over the Dragonwall in the Aiel War twenty years ago. Perhaps RJ had Taim phrase it like this specifically to spark this very debate, a false trail laid down to throw us a little and keep us guessing. I don't know... that still doesn't satisfy me, but it's the best I've seen so far.<br /><br />Thanks again, all. Keep those comments coming<br />Luthair Paendrag


created: 2001-09-06 05:31:57
subject: <b>What?!</b>
body:
Um... are you ok man. Do you know what an &quot;order&quot; is? It's similar in meaning to a &quot;command&quot;. Demandred was ordered, or commanded, by the Dark One. Most such commands should be obeyed. Refer to the prologue of book 6, if you can't remember these commands.<br /><br />Also, you might recall that Taim didn't plan to be put under Rand's command in the way he is now. He wanted a &quot;partnership&quot; at first. Remember? That's why he hates what's happening so much. I mean a normal Taim has fair motive to be number 2 to Rand, but Taim goes crazy, especially when Rand dubbs the Ashaman.<br /><br />&quot;Taim walked to the block stiffly, and Rand bent to pin the silver sword to the tall collar of his coat [...]<br />Taim's face had as much expression as the stone beneath Rand's boots [...]<br />Taim's face made stone look soft, what was wrong with the man? [...]<br />He was holding the bag of sword pins so tightly it was a wonder none of them stabbed him through the cloth.<br />Looking at Taim, who was making no effort to hide his disdain, [...]<br />[Rand]&quot;What has gotten into you? You've had a burr in your breeches ever since I put those badges on you. Is it something to do with them?&quot;<br />The most remarkable transformation came over the man. Taim shook visibly - with rage, Rand would have said, not fear - but when the shaking stopped, he was his old self again. &quot;<br /><br />I mean really. I don't see how a normal Taim could justify this.


created: 2001-09-06 14:38:16
subject: <b>And let's not forget...</b>
body:
..this small piece of evidence:<br /><br />Winter's Heart, page 314:<br /><br />&quot;You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar&quot; [...] &quot;You, and Demandred&quot;<br /><br />She is, of course, talking about al'Thor and we know for a fact that Osan'gar was masquerading as Corlan Dashiva. And &quot;responsible&quot; very much indicates an order from the Dark One. This rules out the possibilities that he's with the whitecloaks or dragonsworn or with the borderlanders or anyone else not in close proximity to Rand. Now who can be watching Rand? It could be Weiramon, but I'll believe that when mice can channel, It could be someone else close to Rand but I can't think of anyone that fits.<br />And there's the &quot;so called aiel&quot; evidence and Sammael's comment on Rand's capture, something like: &quot;I think Mesaana had a hand in it, and Semirhage and Demandred too, despite the outcome&quot; (not exact quote)<br />Notice the &quot;despite the outcome&quot; , as I recall Taim had a hand in rescuing Rand, Sammael obviously believes that Demandred is Taim.<br />Three very hard evidences in favor of Demandred masquerading as Taim.<br />Although there IS the fact that Demandred didn't recognise one of the Asha'man at the end of winter's heart, I really don't think we can conclude wether Taim is or isn't Demandred regardless of what Jordan says. We'll just have to wait and see.


created: 2001-09-06 15:12:09
subject: <b>just one thing</b>
body:
you all are flippin nuts. <br /><br />that is all<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is easier to stab someone in the back<br />  then to look them in the eye.<br />Society is built upon this principle<br />  and is universal amongst those who rule.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 17:04:52
subject: <b>When Will It End?</b>
body:
Once again, a Taimandred theory has arisen (this time that Taim is NOT Demandred, just like the last one).  Once again, the foundations upon which it stand have been knocked out from underneath it.  Once again, we remember Jordan's advice to &quot;read and find out&quot;.  <br /><br />My initial feeling was that Taim is Demandred (he may have once been a regular guy, but the guy at the Black Tower is Demandred).  Lord of Chaos, the best book of the series in my opinion, is all about Demandred and all about Taim.  The story starts and ends with Demandred.  However, I've gone back and forth so many times since then on whether he's Demandred that I'm not sure what's what.  Hell, maybe Bela is Demandred.  But again, this theory doesn't settle the dispute one whit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-06 22:01:39
subject: <b>Two things...</b>
body:
First...we had our renegade Asha'man given two seperate orders, one from Taim &quot;Kill Rand&quot;, and one from Demandred &quot;Kill him&quot;, as if one had not known of the other.<br /><br />Second, Demandred didn't recognize Flinn...immpossible if he was masquerading as Taim.<br /><br />Okay...three things...I firmly beleive that Weiramon was at the Darkfriend Social in the prologue of tGH b/c of his &quot;silver worked boots&quot; and I also firmly believe that Cyndane killed him in the last chapter of WH just before she gated out to Shadar Logoth.


created: 2001-09-07 00:34:34
subject: <b>Allow me to retort...</b>
body:
You know, I just went and reread the Prologue to Book 6, and somehow I still missed the line that reads, &quot;The Great Lord's voice again filled Demandred's head, 'DEMANDRED, I ORDER YOU TO TAKE THE FORM OF MAZRIM TAIM IN ORDER TO GET CLOSE TO AL'THOR.'&quot; I mean, I don't know which books you're reading, but I thought it was pretty clear that this isn't how it works in the upper eschelons of the Dark One's forces. The DO's order (or command) to Demandred was &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot; He never specified how he was to carry out this order, or if he did, we sure as heck didn't read about it, so it can hardly be used as the basis for your argument.<br /><br />As for the rest, that was kind of the point of much of my theory, explaining why Mazrim Taim would react that way to that very scene. If you disagree that's fine, but at least acknowledge that I addressed the issue. Please, in the future, at least take the time to read theories before you try to refute them. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-09-07 00:42:20
subject: <b>Luther thats incorrect</b>
body:
Actually, i have read the prologue to book 6...<br /><br />&quot;You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well.[...]<br />&quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule. His words, exact.&quot; [...]<br />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Then he told them the rest.&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether from excitement or fear. It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler.


created: 2001-09-07 02:06:42
subject: <b>Who's right</b>
body:
I don't understand why you believe that being the M'haul is a disadvantage for Demandred, if it is him, I mean it puts him directly in control of over 100 male channelers, alot of which can easily be turned to the dark, because hey, tell the truth if you had to choose between being evil and insane I think we'd all pick evil.  Not to mention most of the people who sign up to channel are the wrong kind've people.<br /><br />I can't remember who wrote the theory, but I believe that the Great Lord's supposed &quot;plan&quot; involved putting chosen directly in contact with the hierarchy of each major channeling group.  Mesanna and Aran'gar are handling the Aes'sedai, while osan'gar and demandred are handling the asha'man, and of course Semrihage is working the Seanchan.<br /><br />That's the three who had an alliance, as well as the two recently resurrected chosen.  ahhh, but I'm forgeting some people aren't I, we know from when Graendal was speaking with Sammaul in LOC, that she was doing something in Shara, and what else would she be doing other than playing the Ayyad over there...leaving Moridin to give Rand some personal attention.<br /><br /> It's all connected, believe me<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-07 05:57:42
subject: <b>To answer your main point...</b>
body:
I think the idea of masquerading as Lews Therins/Rands second in command would appeal to Demandred - he would see it as a sort of poetic justice, that he uses Lews Therin's arrogance against him. Remember this is very different to when Lews Therin was the Dragon - this time Demandred is below him BY CHOICE, and is using it to get revenge. I personally don't think Taim is Demandred, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't think your argument disproves it. Hopefully we'll find out eventually - I have a horrible feeling that Demandred will be balefired at the end of the series, Taim will disappear inconclusively and we'll be arguing forever. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 09:41:56
subject: <b>you annoy me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I read somewhere that the blindest person is the one keeping his eyes closed.<br />All anti-taimandred-people out there; open your eyes?<br />You have two tiny points against a truckload of evidence!<br /><br />1. he could not have given the ashaman orders as both Taim and Demandred if they were the same person. Hello! Perhaps Demandred does not want the bad ashaman to know he is Demandred, and to enforce this special command, he gives it both as D. and as T. <br /><br />2. Taim would not place himself under LTT again. One point against this argument, is that the DO could have given him a direct order to do so. Or else, Demandred mighthave placed himself thus, thinking that this time he would surpass LTT, showing all the ashaman that he is a better leader than this brat. Something he has indeed done for the most part.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 10:52:34
subject: <b>To Mirerin Sedai. More annoyance...</b>
body:
I was positive Taim was Demandred before WH. In WH though, Robert Jordan apparently set out to kill the Taimandred story. He thought it might not be enough to only have one strong point against it, so he puts two in there. Apparently he didn't realize that he had to be even more specific to get some Taimandred theorists to see that Taim=Demandred was effectively killed. Personally, I think the last chapter evidence would have been strong enough in itself, even WITHOUT the darkfriend saying how he thought it odd that Demandred didn't seem to know about Taim's order.<br /><br />It's been reported over and over again, and it still doesn't seem to take hold. Last chapter of WH, Demandred's POV:<br /><br />&quot;Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along with two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al'Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man's head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.<br /><br />Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of SAIDIN that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. The tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.&quot;<br /><br />Ok. Taim would almost certainly have recognized Flinn at a distance where he can see how two women are beautiful and a man is decrepit and is limping. But that is actually not the most important thing. Demandred is actually surprised an old tottering man even COULD be an Asha'man. THAT would certainly not surprise Taim, even if he did NOT recognize Flinn. Demandred could very well command Taim and many of the Asha'man, but he couldn't even have seen Flinn in a position as Asha'man before, or his reaction would have been different.<br /><br />So, what did you say? Open your eyes! It's dead, gone, impossible, an issue of the past. Taim is NOT Demandred. He is a darkfriend, possibly since many years, possibly controlled by Ishamael and later Demandred and possibly with a status among darkfirends not enjoyed by anyone else in this time and age. But he's NOT Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 15:54:42
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
For everyone who argues for Taimandred, there has been evidence and counter arguements for every point you debate, but NOONE has anything to refute the above passage.  Every instance for Taim being Demandred can be explained away and dismissed, but I have yet to see any Taimandred proponent argue this point successfully, and believe me IT is a major stumbling block to that end.  RJ has obviously put this in a context we are expected to see the final answer to this riddle.  Why else would he stick Demandred in a confrontation with an Asha'man who Taim is very familiar with, and have Demandred be surprised (and ignorant) of who Flinn is?  Taim has on several occassions called Flinn by his own NAME!  He was the first successfully tested Asha'man!  He was the first Taim trusted to send on training missions!  He was not one of Taim's own trusted lieutenants and he knew (a fact that irritated him) that he was with Rand, hence would not be surprised in seeing him assisting in the defense of Rand!  PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS!  (READ as actual, live documented evidence Taim knows who Flinn is and Demandred-again actual passage from a book, NOT conjecture-does not).  Do you think it is coincidence that Demandred was the Forsaken to meet Flinn's group?  RJ has said he didn't want to make it obvious and didn't think he would have to come right out, but apparently he does.  IN THE NEXT FEW POSTS WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS!<br /><br />I am starting to talk like the Dark Lord now, excuse me<br />-I seemed to have misplaced my lithium...


created: 2001-09-07 21:14:42
subject: <b>Demandred is not Taim...</b>
body:
Why would Demandred think of himself as two people, himself and Taim?  People don't think like that, not even people who have lived another life.<br /><br />It is contrary to human nature.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 21:57:23
subject: <b>Listen up Good Then</b>
body:
The last time Taim saw Flinn was 2 months before cleansing saidin, and the first time was a bit over 4 months before it. In the two months after Flinn left to serve Rand, more than 300 Ashaman have joined up. Why would Taim remember Flinn when he had hundreds of other faces all over the ashaman camp?<br /><br />Also, Flinn wasn't dressed in his ashaman coat, so he wouldn't fit Taim's profile of him. Also, Demandred was at such a distance that he couldn't tell that the Aes Sedai next to Flinn had an ageless face, so he couldn't have got a very good look at him. <br /><br />Also, at the end of Book 8 when Fedwin Morr (who was one of The ashaman that Rand chose at the beginning of book 7 along with Flinn) goes mad, Taim arrives and offers to take him away. He calls him &quot;this one.&quot; Have you ever called someone whose name you knew &quot;this one&quot;? i would imagine not. If he didn't recognise Fewdin, then he probably wouldn't recognise Flinn.


created: 2001-09-07 22:31:08
subject: <b>But that's not the point</b>
body:
You are not arguing the point. It doesn't matter whether Taim recognizes Flinn or not. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't, but that's not the point. Demandred is surprised that the man he has in front of him, who is apparently old, decrepit, without more than a little white hair surrounding a bold spot, is in fact an Asha'man at all. Maybe Taim wouldn't recognize Flinn, but he would KNOW that there has been Asha'man who is old and decrepit, which Demandred has such a hard time believing. Demandred's reaction is as if he has never seen an Asha'man in that condition. THAT'S what you should argue against. It DOESN'T MATTER whether Taim would recognize Flinn or not. Taim is NOT Demandred, or his reaction when confronting Flinn would have been different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 04:39:09
subject: <b>Sigh...</b>
body:
What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were.<br /><br />For all he knew, they might just have been farmers. Of course it would be a shock if THEY start channeling at YOU.<br />Also he wasn't wearing his ashaman cloak, which usually gives ashaman away at a distance.<br /><br />Regardless of this, what makes you think Demandred would assume that old people can't channel? That is a pretty retarded assumption. He has no doubt seen 700 year old people channeling, i don't think he would immediately ASSUME that if you are grey haired your channeling ability would be impaired. Sheesh.


created: 2001-09-08 06:57:54
subject: <b>Exactly...</b>
body:
It wasn't Demandred<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 07:50:00
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
To kenco: I don't assume anything. I read and find out. Demandred is surprised he is channeled against. He is surprised the old man can walk, much less channel. It's there in plain text. I don't assume anything not in the text, contrary to what so many others do, when assuming Demandred thinks in ways he OBVIOUSLY does not, with regards to the text.<br /><br />To Moridin_2000: And if the text says that &quot;Demandred does this&quot;, &quot;Demandred does that&quot;, one needs pretty strong evidence to say it isn't Demandred. It is, per definition. And he apparently knows less than everyone seems to credit him. Accept. The text decides. What's reasonable only works up to the point the text refutes it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 12:43:53
subject: <b>Explanations</b>
body:
If there's is one thing I know for sure, it's that if Taim does turn out to be Demandred, RJ is going to have alot of explaining to do, and if he isn't, RJ is gonna have alot of explaining to do.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-08 14:23:26
subject: <b>All of you NEVER EVER Return to this Subject until Book 10!!!</b>
body:
There is one fool proof way of disproving and/or proving this arguement and that would be in the prologe of book 10.<br /><br />TILL THEN NEVER RETURN TO THIS SUBJECT EVER AGAIN, ON PENALTY OF DISEMBOWLMENT !!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-08 18:29:17
subject: <b>another point</b>
body:
	One point that almost proves for me that Taim was not a Darkfriend (atleast in the beggining) is one sceane in which he is thalking to Rand and LTT acts up, Rand starts muttering etc.. and Taim actualy acts like he cares &quot;got to hang on etc..&quot; Call me gullable but I just don't thinka darkfriend would have reacted that way.


created: 2001-09-08 18:34:20
subject: <b>Sorry Yubi...</b>
body:
I misread his post entirely. Either that or the medication is wearing of.....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 21:48:15
subject: <b>Yubi...</b>
body:
Demandred isn't surprised that the man can walk. He calls him &quot;tottering&quot;. That most probably refers to Flinn's limp, which wouldn't be helped by the forest terrain.<br /><br />The crux of the point is this. Demandred says &quot;the tottering old man was an Asha'man!&quot;. Your whole argument, to dethrone every peice of Taimandred evidence, is that Demandred is surprised at the fact that such a man could be an ashaman.<br /><br />I believe it could easily be interpreted as surprise that people who might have been unfortunate passers by would attack him, where he had come to attack. Thus it is not sufficiently clear for your point to be valid.


created: 2001-09-09 00:03:41
subject: <b>Just one thing</b>
body:
RJ never said that he didnt recognise him. When ask this question at a chat/signing or whatever someone ask &quot;Did Demandred recongize Flinn? and the answer he got was RAFO.&quot; why would he say this if he had already believed that he did not and everyone with eyes can read that and see plainly that he did or didnt. Thats like someone asking is Rand the Dragon and Rj giving a RAFO. He has already told us and will answer us if it is that obvious. He is going to tell us if he recognised him or not in the next book so until then enough with this stupid he didnt recognise him crap. Thank you<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 10:57:08
subject: <b>Lews Therin's loathing</b>
body:
How do you explain that Lews Therin starts ranting &quot;Kill them! kill them all!&quot; as soon as taim is around rand? &quot;him&quot; must mean demandred, and &quot;them&quot; must mean the Chosen


created: 2001-09-11 20:08:49
subject: <b>Just another little twig onto the bonfire</b>
body:
So could someone explain to me why there the was need for not one but TWO of the forsaken to infiltrate the black tower? First off it does seem plausible that at the time that Al'Thor offered amnesty to channeling males, that the chosen didn't expect things to become so big.<br /><br />   So either A) Taim the dark friend is sent Rand to get in good with him so that the forces of the shadow have another dagger close to the Dragon or B) Non darkfriend, escapee by luck Taim goes to Rand because that's the safest damned place to be in the world and is eventually turned over to the shadow. Either way when things start getting so big at the Black Tower Osangar was drafted to get in their as an ashamon so that the Chosen had a more active hand.<br /><br />   If Taim is Demandred then that means that after he was sent to befriend Al'Thor and get in close to him he by sheer luck ended up becoming 2nd banana at the Black Tower. Then Osangar is slipped in even tough Demandred is already running the show. That would tend to indicate that Taimendred has screwed up right? In what way I would wonder. Also if he screwed up so bad why is he still the head honcho and not dead or removed?<br /><br />   So far everyone of the Chosen has been seen working in a different area on their own, most likely to give them longer range of influence. It's been firmly established that they don't work well together. Considering all of this can anyone offer a plausible reason as to why two Forsaken should be assinged to the Black Tower?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 04:23:39
subject: <b>to Savaunt</b>
body:
When the Forsaken meet in the prologue of book 6, after Demandred gives out the DO's orders, Mesaana thinks, &quot;Unless.... Unless the Great Lord had a plan beyond the one he had revealed. And that frightened her more than any other possibility.&quot;<br /><br />The VERY NEXT PoV is Osan'gar's (i.e. Dashiva's). In this PoV, Shaidar Haran says &quot;None but I and the Great Lord know you live.&quot;<br /><br />So, it seems the DO is not entirely trusting of his Forsaken (which is understandable after all the deaths, and Asmo's defection). So he is probably putting Osangar among the ashaman to keep a close eye on Taimandred.


created: 2003-02-11 08:00:42
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
Why would Taim take orders from Demandred? He's as strong as Demandred and he has the Asha'man under his command.  <br />Imagine:<br /><br />Demmy: Taim, you will do such and such now.<br /><br />Taim:  Asha'man, kill this asshole.<br /><br />Demmy:  Oops.<br /><br />And none of this explains the &quot;renegade Aiel&quot; comment.  Taim not being Demmy makes no sense whatever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 19:38:13
subject: <b>Dobraine</b>
body:
I would have to agree that Demandred is Dobraine simply because there aren't really any other choices that have evidence to support them.<br /><br />To bad Asmodean isn't still around to help pick out the Forsaken.


created: 2001-09-07 20:02:45
subject: <b>Nope - Dobraine isn't Demandred</b>
body:
At least I hope he isn't, because otherwise Robert Jordan has made it very difficult for the readers to guess.<br /><br />The first counter-argument is the STRENGTH of the exclamation in the last chapter of WH. Demandred simply hasn't seen an Asha'man that decrepit, and therefore hasn't seen Flinn. Dobraine, on the other hand, spent some time at Dumai Wells among Asha'man, and then traveled to Caemlyn, with Flinn. He's also been seen later on with Rand, who often has had Flinn with him. It would be very strange if he hasn't seen him at least a couple of times, and therefore wouldn't react the way Demandred does. In fact, Dobraine could even have recognized the two Aes Sedai, who both were in Dumai Wells and with Cadsuane (whom he met in Cairhien).<br /><br />Second. Dobraine is a tough type, but more-so than against Taimandred, the argument of reaction is important. Dobraine simply does not seem to hate Rand, but seems a rather loyal subject, if only in his own way. I doubt Demandred would be that good an actor.<br /><br />Third. Demandred mentions how Rand has been seen in five cities since the attack in Cairhien. I think it's odd he wouldn't mention the fact that he had met Rand in Cairhien again, after the incident. Or that Graendal screams to him &quot;and you've just been hoping to blunder into him&quot;, if he in fact HAD blundered into Rand. Those comments does not fit with Dobraine being Demandred.<br /><br />Fourth. I don't have the book here, so I can't be sure, but hasn't Dobraine put himself in some danger, at least in Dumai Wells? Demandred apparently prefers if other does the dangerous stuff, and he can plan from the bench.<br /><br />Fifth. His appearance, as you say, can be altered. But it's still quite dangerous, and hardly something that he would have done for any period of time. Why would he be put in a full-time job in Cairhien at all, with his length? It simply doesn't make sense.<br /><br />There are things pointing to Dobraine, but in my opinion much more points against him. Taimandred is a dead issue, but I can't say Dobrandred is much better. Keep searching...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 20:47:35
subject: <b>Perhaps</b>
body:
Demandred being Dobraine would explain the comment about Demandred being involved in Dumai Wells despite the way it turned out though.<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-08 00:34:52
subject: <b>Not a chance</b>
body:
well, I really like your theory, except for one little thing, if, and thats a big if, Demandred is posing as Bashere, then he is going against his own philosophy, and that is a general never fights alongside the troops he commands, and how many battles has Bashere been in since he allied with Rand? Quite a few eh? Plus, I think it more likely that knowing Demandred's ego, he would be hard put to even bend his neck to Rand, and who fits those categories? Why, the High Lord's of Tear come to mind, especially a certain High Lord named Meilan, or Semaradrid of Cairhien??? Food for thought........<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-09-08 14:05:25
subject: <b>Yubi nailed it, plus one more...</b>
body:
Check out Path of Daggers where Rand learns about the conditions on the Bargain.  When the 'square mile of land' at every port the Dragon controls is mentioned, Dobraine goes ballistic.  His reaction is very much in character of a Lord of Cairhien, not what Demandred would likely have said in his place.  You could always argue that Demandred is just a good actor, but I don't think he could pull it off.  Just too much emotion in the scene.<br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 05:57:43
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
If my information is correct, this theory cannot be correct.<br /><br />I play the Wheel of Time CCG and Lord Dobraine and Demandred are seperate people in it. I am pretty sure that RJ has some say in which cards come out - if I am right, Demandred cannot be Dobraine.


created: 2001-09-09 13:57:42
subject: <b>CCG</b>
body:
I doubt it.<br /><br />With the way Jordan has been twisting all his secrets into nice little tangles of string I highly doubt he would just reveal one of the most debated subjects in a card game.<br /><br />Besides, not including Dobraine would cause the card game to make less money. After all, the less cards there are just means less cards have to be bought to finish a collection.


created: 2001-09-10 07:14:00
subject: <b>What about Dumai's Wells????</b>
body:
I liked this theory from the start. I don't know, perhaps it was the originality of it. But there is one thing (or at least one thing i haven't seen posted) which says that i must disagree.<br /><br />The mask of mirrors is said to shatter if anyone touches it. Though I can't claim to have taken part in a battle before I am fairly sure that a battle like Dumai's Wells would mean that you were touched at least once or twice. Yet none of Dobraine's men noticed him change in the middle of the battle or notice anything out of the ordinary.<br /><br />To the contrary of this point you can say that all of Dobraine's men were like the White Lions - darkfriends. Or that in a middle of a battle no one may really notice someone completely changing forms. But unless Dobraine's men were darkfriends I can't believe they's let him so far out of their site that they couldn't notice his change of physical appeareance (I think Demandred was only a little taller than Lews Therin and Dobraine isn't tall for even a Cairhienen.)


created: 2001-09-26 12:43:34
subject: <b>I like this</b>
body:
It also explains why Breane, of the same house as Dobraine and a possibly close relation had to run.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 12:22:24
subject: <b>Uh, uh...</b>
body:
I rebuke the idea based upon something written within the theory itself.  If Demandred states that Lanfear vanished without a trace, than he could not be Dobraine.  For as Adercantum stated in his/her theory, Dobraine was present when Lanfear went through the ter'angreal to Finnland.  Demandred, were he Dobraine, therefore would not have stated so simply to the DO that, &quot;...Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did....&quot;  Demandred, were he Dobraine, would have speculations about the whereabouts of Lanfear had he witnessed the struggle through the ter'angreal.  Dig deeper...<br /><br />Mauladala<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 09:09:43
subject: <b>This one's impossible as well.</b>
body:
Dobraine has been around Flinn.  And as we all know, Demandred sees Flinn at the end of WH and doesn't know who he is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 19:14:52
subject: <b>Ajah dissapearence</b>
body:
I don't think that the Red Ajah will dissapear.  That is, I think all the ajah's will dissapear when the white and the black tower join.  It would just make sense with the whole circular time aspect, and there not being Ajahs in the age of legends.<br />


created: 2001-09-09 10:26:25
subject: <b>I love it!!</b>
body:
I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S MARVELOUS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />wow <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-09 20:33:43
subject: <b>Well maybe...</b>
body:
... I will definitely agree with the idea that to the Red Ajah at least, it'd be more sensible to re-organize themselves to fill a new role than to disband now that the previous one isn't necessary.<br /><br />   However the reds do have a lot of stigma and baggage with them. There are a lot of folk with now love for them at all. If the big secret of the 'red massacre' (the unlawful gentling of men' comes out then there will be a lot more dislike of them. There may be those who would rather disband the reds altogether than let them continue on after all the damage done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 08:14:16
subject: <b>Reds and the search for wilders?</b>
body:
I agree wholeheartedly with both the main theory and the subsequent theories which have been raised.<br /><br />A policing force was something I had not considered for the Red Ajah - it would of course make sense.<br /><br />But how about an ajah devoted to finding channellers...except now its females!<br /><br />The Red's have experience and knowledge on how to locate men who can channel and bring them down.  Why not transpose that knowledge and ethos to finding women...in particular saving wilders from that horrific death they will endure if they don't learn some control of channelling?<br /><br />In regards to their stigma...I am getting the impression that what they have done to men in the past is something that not all Red's are aware of.  Pervera (or is is Seaine?) in the Tower is one example.  She does not believe the lies the Rebels are spreading about the Red's... so maybe not all Red's will suffer the stigma attached to their ajah - although many will have to redeem themselves in the eyes of their new Amyrlin or Tamrylin for that matter! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think the Red's will remain.  The question is will the men form Ajah's of their own and how many?  6?  So that there will be 13 Ajahs?  There is that magic number again! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Oh well...guess we will have to wait and see!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Clef<br />Resident Healer for Wotamania Tournaments<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 08:35:11
subject: <b>Thumb up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Sounds very possible. I, as well as someone above, would also include actively seeking for channelers. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> And if/when the Towers join, the males will possibly have their own &quot;Red Ajah&quot; working together with females, or actually be in the same ajah.<br /><br />Still, the change won't go painlessly, there will be a lot of screams of rage and frustration and gnashing of teeth. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seita<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 10:34:21
subject: <b>The unred White Tower</b>
body:
Yes, there are Reds who are not evil man-haters. But with what has been and will be revealed, those will not mind seeking a new ajah. The reds will disappear.<br /><br />To Clef's comments, there is a difference between the improper gentling of men outside the procedures set by the Tower, and the &quot;lie&quot; that came out of Salidar about the Reds playing puppet master to Logain and other False Dragons. The first is true, and is akin to vigilantism among overzealous Reds. The second is false having been fabricated by Siuan, and was promoted as a way to harm the Reds and therefore weaken Elaida as Amyrlin Seat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-11 01:58:13
subject: <b>Reds...</b>
body:
I always thought that the Red's would return to whatever the focus of their Ajah was before the Breaking. I don't know if RJ has ever stated it, but I always got the impression that the Ajah's existed in the AOL. If so then I would speculate the Red's original focus was on linking with men. Who would have more experience with finding men who can channel? Maybe after the male half was tainted the Reds kind of lost site of their original purpose. Just a thought....


created: 2001-09-12 02:20:27
subject: <b>Pre-breaking Ajah</b>
body:
I thought (BWB?) that there weren't Ajah as such before the breaking. There were loose alliances and groupings for various purposes, but nothing as rigid as the current system.<br /><br />As an aside, I don't know that Ajah need to exist after TG. I had the feeling (not supported by any fact I can think of) that the Ajah developed to preserve the knowledge being lost during the breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 15:17:09
subject: <b>What's the difference?</b>
body:
Hey now, what's the difference between reds and darkfriends?  Did you ever think about that?  I mean, come on!  The reds will go with their master to oblivion!  *mad cackle*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />If they look of the eyeless is fear, how do they know we are looking at them? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-20 23:14:26
subject: <b>reds will be there</b>
body:
who says the reds will disband or change their role?  I think they won't believe that the taint is gone<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 22:36:35
subject: <b>FBI Ajah?</b>
body:
Does their police work include stopping drug traders(you know what i mean, nynaeve gettin high off of forkroot and what not)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Asian pride world wide!&quot;<br />&quot;Go for the eyes Boo!&quot;-Minsc from Baldur's Gate<br />&quot;They need a smiley wearin' one of those asian field worker hats...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> my friend bobby<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> WOT4life!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> go Mat!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 21:38:13
subject: <b>Are they trustworthy?</b>
body:
True, a lot of reds are not evil man haters, but then again, there are a lot of them who joined the red ajah because they hate men.  Having the reds as a police force would personally scare me a little.  If reds were sent to hunt darkfriends, not just in the Tower, but in the entire population, I think there would be a disproportionate amount of male 'darkfriends' being arrested.  They would be like the Aes Sedai version of Whitecloak questioners.  I would proceed with caution with giving reds that much power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Tungwene<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Nynaeve fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Egwene lover<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" />Strong women rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Vive la Randland<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />The WOT-Jedi Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" />Defenders of the Wot Universe<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />Bringers of peace<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" />Vanquishers of the Dark Side<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 23:47:05
subject: <b>A Change for the Reds</b>
body:
I do not believe that such a big Ajah will be disbanded.  Many Reds have commited what I would call unethical acts, but the entire Red Ajah are not like that.  I think Reds like Pevara show that the whole Ajah is not bad. I also think that the Red Ajah, knowing the truth about their involvement with False Dragons would be more likely to dig in their nails than disband.<br /><br />Once the Aes Seadi believe the Saidin is clean (which will not happen any time soon as many Aes Sedai still do not believe the Forsaken are free, or there is such a thing as Forkroot or a terangreal to control female channelers) the Red Ajah will have to change their whole way of thinking as well as the purpose of the Ajah. As to what the focus will be I can not say, but perhaps it will still be focused on helping the world.  Remember the Reds believe that hunting men who can channel is a very important task. <br /><br />I really like the idea or bands of Aes Sedai and Asha'man going out together to find potential channlers.  Already the Asha'men have been very effective in recruiting and we know for a fact that both the Seanchan and Wise Ones never miss channellers with the spark or those who can be taught.  With so many channelers perphaps Elaida's idea of a return to the days when Aes Sedai where both more influential and well thought of is not as far fetched as it seems.


created: 2002-08-02 19:08:59
subject: <b>Possibly</b>
body:
i think that this is possible but i dont know if the Asha'man will want to team up with there former hunters and destroyers.<br /><br />           my 2 cents<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Truth Vengence Honor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 02:21:58
subject: <b>after TG</b>
body:
Who says that there will be a White Tower at all after the Age ends?  With all of the freaky stuff going on, I can easily see the ability to channel end entirely.  We kow that people couldn't channel in some ages, but that there were probably other ages that they could besides the AoL and whatever preceded it.  The cyclitic nature of the wheel suggests that the talent will come and go as Ages pass.  Even if the ability survives, I'm sure that a lot of channelers won't survive TG and the new breaking, in whatever form that comes in.  Plus, several characters have mentioned that AS not marrying has culled the ability out of the general population.  Jordan doesn't put things in for no reason, so that might be a hint.<br /><br />Either that or the Towers will merge and we'll see more of an AoL version of channelers, although I don't think that the Ashaman will ever call themsleves Aes Sedai, like them AoL men did.  <br /><br />If the Ajahs do survive, I can see the Reds hunting renegade channelers, men and women both.  I doubt that if the Towers and the ability survive all of the Black Ajah and DF Ashaman will die, leaving some pretty powerful bad guys running around.


created: 2001-09-07 21:32:43
subject: <b>Perhaps, with this being the Last Last Battle...</b>
body:
By eliminating the dark one, healing Death won't be as hard as it might have been with Shai'tan holding reins on all the dead souls.<br /><br />But if you actually happen to defeat the Dark One, this tips the scale immensely.  Shai'tan has never been accounted to actually taking one's life away, like Thanatos does in greek myth.  He's not the personification of death, he just happens to be an evil celestial person.<br /><br />The creator doesn't exactly give life, and the Dark One doesn't exactly steal it, but if you were to get rid of the darkness, mighten you become blind by te light?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 23:52:48
subject: <b>yup</b>
body:
I must agree, he has mentioned it WAY too many times for it not to come true-and there must be consequences<br />otherwise it's just stupid<br /><br />I personally think Rand's ressurection will lead to his future beggarness.  What if the cost of being revived is<br />losing all of one's memories?  <br /><br />My $ .02<br /><br />chris 232<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I was a kid, I use to pray to God every night for a bicycle.  Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole a bike and asked him to forgive me.<br />--Emo Philips--<br /><br />Don't they say the Lord helps those who help themselves?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 00:40:17
subject: <b>The Light didn't return Birgitte</b>
body:
She was ripped out of T'A'R by Moggy, then was saved by Elayne bonding her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 08:45:57
subject: <b>Healing death...</b>
body:
I think the way you got to look at this issue depends on how you define death. Does death occur when the heart stops or when the brain cells die due to oxygen shortage?<br />The important thing is how the people of Randland view death. CPR is a way of healing death if you use the first definition.<br />(In that case, we already have seen death being healed in the series.)<br /><br />I really hope no Aes Sedai/Ashaman discover a way to resurrect people long dead, this would just be silly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 18:20:18
subject: <b>another point</b>
body:
	I think some one had a veiwing about Rand lying dead with three wemen around him which would perfectly fit this therory


created: 2001-09-08 18:41:51
subject: <b>That was Nicola.....</b>
body:
She had a Foretelling.<br /><br />Anyway I think that the Heroes are sort of the same thing as bringing someone back from the dead. Each lifetime they have, they are the same person and perform some feat that identifies them. <br /><br />The Forsaken are done like this too, although they can remember who they were. Perhaps this is to do with how long they are kept in limbo.<br /><br />To cut a long story short, I think that Rand will come back, but in a different body. Then again, thats a pretty wacky idea. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 06:02:19
subject: <b>Love sucks</b>
body:
I like the theory. But not the love part if love had any effect then no body would die, because all the main carecters are in love with someone (allmost), and it would suck, it's like hating a person and they drop dead. It would be as a second magic, and we already have the one power and the true power. Now if feeling got in the picture everybody would raise their dead lovers with the help of the aes sedai.


created: 2001-09-09 10:20:13
subject: <b>sounds reasonable enough...</b>
body:
The theory's nice, but I think perhaps Min would have some difficulty with the linking-part.... and if only Elayne and Aviendha were to do it it would be unfair, sort of.. If you know what I mean. doesn't sound like RJ. so that just doesn't seem likely... no. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-11 01:50:31
subject: <b>The Light.</b>
body:
When I wrote that the light had returned Birgitte I didn't mean that the Light had literally done it. The Dark One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  takes an active role in the resurrection of his Chosen. The Creator acts through humans <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> and The Pattern (circumstance) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> to advance his cause.(Which he always wins.)I think that Birgitte's return is an example of this.


created: 2001-09-11 15:32:59
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
Hmm. If healing death were to be impossible/extremely difficult, the results of trying could be disasterous, and not necessarily limited to ODing on the OP. <br /><br />Take LTT. He's been cured (possibly temporarily) of madness. He realises he's killed the person he loves above all else. What does he do? Try, perhaps, to bring her back? Maybe that's what caused the somewhat discombolutating reboance resulting in the dragonmount. (apologies for my sesquipedalianity, I just feel like showing off)<br /><br />-the Almighty Salmonius, The Divine Herald, The Voice of Truth, The Chosen One (the unbelievably egotistcal and arrogant)<br /><br />P.S. Palindrome of the week: 'Rettebs I flahd noces, eh? Ttu, but the second half is better.'


created: 2001-09-14 19:25:58
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
Death can be healed by massive amounts of Balefire at strategic targets. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-18 10:20:39
subject: <b>On the Third Day ...</b>
body:
I don't know how exactly it's going to happen (Ny and Flinn linking, probably) but it does seem quite likely Rand will be back from the dead.  The most solid reference in the text is (I think) in tPoD, where he remembers the Snakes telling him: &quot;If you would live, you must die&quot;.  Quite apart from that, there is a strong argument to be made from the symbolism, specifically that of Rand as a Christ-figure.  Both were &quot;born of a Maiden wedded to no man&quot;, both are the Messiah/Coramoor/Chosen One, both wear crowns of sharp pointy things, both are wounded in the side, and both are going to die to save the world.  All these similarities (and more could no doubt be added) suggest a resurrection, although Rand's character does also draw on a number of other figures who weren't all brought back.  What clinches it for me is the number of &quot;three days&quot; remarks sprinkled throughout the text, apparently as throwaways.  I wish I had taken closer note of them all, but two in particular spring to mind.  Elayne thinks at one point (somewhere in the middle books, maybe just before healing Logain/Siuan/Leane?) that &quot;Nynaeve would not be satisfied until she had healed someone three days dead&quot;.  Halwin Norry comments to Elayne in WH that he wouldn't believe Rand was dead until he'd sat three days with the corpse.  People who read more closely than I do may be able to add more such references, but I think even these few (plus the general symbolism) strongly suggest that Rand, like Christ, will rise again on the third day after his death.


created: 2001-11-02 09:57:18
subject: <b>Balefire....</b>
body:
I agree with Scade on the idea of Balefire - surely if say for example one of the Forsaken killed Rand, then shortly afterwards say Nynaeve kills that Forsaken with really strong Balefire, then surely if it is strong enough it will remove the thread of the Forsaken from the pattern far back enough for it not to have been around to kill Rand....


created: 2002-04-15 20:30:59
subject: <b>Gotta agree about the balefire</b>
body:
Umm, I just have one thing to say, Rand's fight with Rahvin. People have already been resurrected into there own bodies since Rand did his balefire number on Rahvin bringing back Avi, Mat, Asmodean, etc. etc.<br />There ya go, balefire Heals death, fun stuff no? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Reality is nothing, perception is everything.&quot;


created: 2002-06-06 12:31:55
subject: <b>time</b>
body:
the matter of healing death would probably have to be done shortly after a person dies, though with the Power could probably be a longer period then normal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 22:35:02
subject: <b>Bringing out Good Points</b>
body:
I like Jak's theory and perception of Rand being a Christ-like figure. However, I'm not too sure RJ is the type of person to do that. (I could be seriously mistaken)<br /><br />Before I go any further, let's pull the facts together. The Forsaken were revived at the cost of another person's death. (They could not return in their own bodies.) Birgitte was pulled from T'A'R before her time and saved by Elayne. Rand somewhat brought the little girl back to life though she lacked an important part. (A soul perhaps?) Balefire did in fact bring Avi and Asmodean back to life. (Too bad for Asmodean though. lol)<br /><br />In short, death can be healed, though it has not been done the *natural* way of using the OP to heal. (Like Rand was trying with the little girl.)<br /><br />I think, personally, that if Rand *does* die at TG that he will be revived though the cost will be tremendous. I liked the idea that it could come at the cost of someone else's life. Or if not that, then whomever did it would be burned out, losing part of themself.<br /><br />We won't know the truth until RJ writes it, but does anyone feel the way I do about the nearing of the end? I for one am scared to read the ending. I've become so attached to all the characters that I may not be able to face the fact that one or more may die. (Not to mention that will mark the final end to the WoT series! NOOOO!)<br /><br />Anyway, I've said enough. Laters!


created: 2002-12-15 04:04:39
subject: <b>The Horn and Resurrection..</b>
body:
Mat is tied to the Horn. The Horn summons dead heroes. <br />My definition of death is 'When the Soul leaves the Body'.<br />If Rand dies, then Mat blows the Horn, would it not summon Rand? Perhaps. And then, perhaps, an incredibly strong weave of Spirit (if not more) made probably by a linked circle (presumably of equal numbers of Aes Sedai and Asha'man) would be able to tie his summoned soul back into his body, AND LO! HE IS RISEN! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just an idea, of course.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-03 00:11:05
subject: <b>well, sounds great in 'theory'</b>
body:
sorry bout the pun<br /><br />no, this all sounds good, but as some other blackborders may have pointed out, the 'coming back to life' is just dying, then the event being erased by balefire. mat was to die then live again, and he has.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />                                 matt<br />                              aka jango<br />                                     do or do not,<br />                                     there is no try</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-23 16:48:27
subject: <b>Maybe death can be healed</b>
body:
but I don't think anyone should.  Nynaeve might be ballsy enough to try, but some forces are bigger than one man.  I say the healing of death will be what ushers in a new age, and the evils of being near immortal.  It only leads to trouble.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If I lived in the WoT universe, I would be the a HUGE Rock Star. My sign - a black anarchy symbol, crossed with a red guitar, neck to the left, on a field of white. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> of the WORLD<br />bard to the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-03 03:16:38
subject: <b>I just want to say...</b>
body:
I think Rand will stay dead, I hate how everyone thinks he will survive or be brought back it just annoys me.  Dead is dead.


created: 2001-09-08 07:08:22
subject: <b>This makes sense!</b>
body:
It seems a good idea that the seals are ter'angreal that maintain the weaves on the DO's prision. Using heartstone to maintain the weaves would allow the weave to be maintained forever, not like most tied off weaves that dispell over time. The DO's counterstroke must have occurred before the seal was fully in place, because else he couldn't reach to taint saidin. The seals would thus weaken through the taint, and only something from the Dark One would break heartstone.


created: 2001-09-08 18:04:21
subject: <b>besides...</b>
body:
	I realy don't think Robert Jordan is going to have the seals fixed.  There have already been numerous complaints about how long it is taking to get to the last battle, emagine what would happen if they just fix the seals and the Last Battle never comes.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-10 07:10:51
subject: <b>On Roonas Comment</b>
body:
Lews Therin wants to break the seals so that the DO can be properly imprisoned.  As Fel's note says in LoC, one &quot;Must clear away the rubble before you can build.&quot;


created: 2001-09-10 10:21:13
subject: <b>How the taint WAS breaking them...</b>
body:
If the taint was damaging the seals, and I personally agree that their slow degeneration is due to the taint, then that has been halted. Any remaining intact seals will hold, but no broken ones will be restored.<br /><br />However, the real question is how much that matters now. It is well agreed that the seals are the subject of Herid Fel's comment that you must clear away rubble before you can build. (Of course there is a side-fullfilment of this statement with the destruction of Shadar Logoth) And yet Rand, who is in possession of two (3?) seals is in no hurry to destroy them. That he saw it necessary to cleanse saidin first is logical, so perhaps that is something he will consider soon. Perhaps he senses some other tasks must be accomplished before breaking the seals and dealing with the DO's strongest onslaught while attempting to properly seal the prison. Perhaps he wants all of the Forsaken dealt with first. Or, perhaps he believes that the seals aren't very important now, with the taint gone and all of the Forsaken freed from their prison, and (so he believes), a good half of them dead.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 19:13:11
subject: <b>To Roonas-</b>
body:
If the seals are ter'angreal used to tie down the weaves, as they are, then it stands to reason that they could have been tying down the taint as well, causing their slow degeneration. Remember, in AOL it may have been _better_ to do things with saidin and saidar, but that doesn't mean that something done with only saidin or saidar was defective- the seals are breaking down due to the taint, not the abscence of saidar.


created: 2001-12-29 01:50:59
subject: <b>The One Power</b>
body:
I feel that the taint is directly related to the seals. The one power is Saidin/Saidar together. Remember all the greatest works of AOL were done by combining. My thought then is that there are hooks that are meant to grasp the other power and create a fuller and more complete matrix. When the weaves were laid over the bore the DO was then able to exert his &quot;true power&quot; back through the seals and attach it to Saidin because Saidin is designed to be joined to another power and there was no Saidar to protect those connections. But it would only be an oily overlay because the &quot;true power&quot; is not the perfect match that Saidar is. Since the DO's is decay and death the power flowing inside (heartstone is resistant to outside forces) would gradually destroy the matrix of the heartstone from within. The other point is that since they aren't a perfect match the seals are used to keep the &quot;true Power&quot; focused and in contact with Saidin. In which case destroying them would disrupt the taint possibly permanently.


created: 2003-08-16 22:28:39
subject: <b>Nope.</b>
body:
There is no way the taint on saidin could wear away the seals. If that were the case, every saidin-tied ter'angreal made of cuendillar would have worn away long ago. What on Earth do you think the Choken Dal are made of? Granite? And don't tell me both are linked by saidar. That's just silly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 19:13:48
subject: <b>Talisman</b>
body:
Loial mentioned the Talisman after he destroyed the Two Rivers Waygate near the end of the fourth book.


created: 2001-09-08 20:34:50
subject: <b>Does it say which Stedding it is in?</b>
body:
BTW How come the HTML works on the theories page and not this Blackboard?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 21:28:28
subject: <b>Well, maybe...</b>
body:
Is the whereabouts of the Talisman really known? I doubt it, but I can't really remember what was said.<br /><br />Anyway, while it's a really nice idea, I don't think it would work. The problem is that you'd have to make a clean start, as you say. If you'd have to create a new waygate from scratch and use the Talisman, it'll be almost as if creating the ways anew, and one of the points was to avoid just that.<br /><br />On the other hand, if the existing Ways are to be the base for the work of the Talisman, the problem is to not only clean a part of the Way, for a clean start, but to actually isolate it, basically cutting off the rest. That would be the only way to begin the Talisman branching from a clean base. I doubt that sort of division of the Ways is even possible, and hardly much easier than to actually clean it.<br /><br />One thing I might have misunderstood is this: Do you mean that using the Talisman on the current Ways, would create a clean branch? I doubt it will, because however the Talisman works, it almost certainly extends what's already there. If what's there is in the condition the Ways currently is, whatever new branch created will probably also have those properties, and not be clean.<br /><br />Well, it's a nice theory, but I don't really think it would work. Of course, this is on the very edge of what we know, so more or less anything could be true. Robert Jordan has probably not even thought about it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-08 23:33:49
subject: <b>Nice idea</b>
body:
I really like the idea of building a new system of ways but I think it would be easiser for Rand to go and obliterate the taint in the ways. This would be difficult though because he elimanted the taint on the one power but pitting two opposing forces against eachother which consumed eachother. Perhaps he can force Machin Shin against the rest of the taint in the ways to cleanse it. I hope Robert Jordan explores the ways in more depth!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 08:13:45
subject: <b>Isolating a Waygate...</b>
body:
Might not be all that hard. Rand has cleansed Saidin and half a dozen Talents have been rediscovered. Things not possible in the Age of legends have been done too.<br /><br />What about if the Talisman of Growing was used to destroy the Waygates till there was only one left. Then it could be cleansed and they could be rebuilt. I think that Loial mentions the Talisman when Perrin asks if it is possible to destroy a Waygate. <br /><br />Maybe you dont even have to destroy them all. Simply pick a Waygate and 'kill off' all it's branches. Then cleanse that part and rebuild. Then again we don't have any idea on the nature of the connections.<br /><br />I agree ewith you Yubi about extending what is already there, but if you have a clean Waygate then all extensions WILL be clean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 10:31:57
subject: <b>Waygates and the Ways</b>
body:
Well, I'm not as sure as you are about that.<br /><br />Even if it's possible to destroy waygates using the Talisman (or for that matter, something else), it does not necessarily mean the Ways disappear. The waygates are only portals to the Ways, and even if they were all destroyed, the Ways, such as it is, would almost certainly remain (although it might be impossible to reach).<br /><br />I believe it would be possible to build a new Ways (sort of using another frequency when using a radio) seperate from the old, but it would mean totally new waygates. If instead wanting to use the old waygates, the &quot;same frequency&quot; would be used, and the problem to erase the ways would be there.<br /><br />The whole problem is really that while killing off branches would be possible, it would only mean people can't travel there, not the Taint or Machin Shin. I get the feeling that what is created with the Talisman is new bridges and walkways, but the dimension in which these are set, already fills the whole of the world. The taint and Machin Shin would, contrary to the actual walking paths, fill up this world even if no paths at all were created, just as a gas fills up a container.<br /><br />I say there are only two possibilites: Clean the whole of the Ways, or create new portals and a new Ways (It might be possible to reprogram the portals though, although I doubt it's an implemented feature)...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 14:06:21
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
New Waygates would have to be built and I think that the Ogier still know how. I think that this is part of the talisman's job though. <br /><br />I'm positive about destroying Waygates though. I'll try to find the reference though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 14:14:11
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
The Ways exist in another world, the whole world is tainted.  Just growing another gate won't change that and the world will still be tainted, including the new gate.  Anyway, it may be possible that the Ways can be clensed, since it's mentioned that the Ways are like a living entity, but I would think that would require someone like Nynaeve to look into it and I doubt she will before the end of the books anyway.  Besides the Ways have to be destroyed eventually so that they can be rebuilt at the end of the next AoL.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-11 21:21:12
subject: <b>Are the Ways still tainted?</b>
body:
Wouldn't the ways be clear of the taint now? Rand's cleansing on Saidin means that there is no longer a taint on the ways. (well if it _is_ cleansed...) The only issue is Machin Sin (whether it's linked to Fain or the DO is the question).<br /><br />So, if we were to start a new bunch of links in the ways, then they should be clean. IMHO, if you built a new waygate with no links to anywhere, then you could use it as the new starter point.<br /><br />Hmm... maybe this whole concept is where Loial comes back into the story? (and maybe Jordan's going to look at this and change book 10 into 'The Green Ways'<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 00:34:50
subject: <b>The ways are still tainted</b>
body:
From what I gather RJ has stated that A: Saidin is no totally clean, and the B: This doesn't affect anything previoulsy tainted. Therefore men that have gone made from the taint will still be crazy, and the ways should still be tainted.<br /><br />   I will agree insofar as the Talisman being used to make a new set of ways, but I still think the old set has to be nixed out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 18:44:27
subject: <b>ways</b>
body:
Whether or not the taint is totally clean is not clear, it is left in the air at the end of WH.  If I remember correctly, it is Cadsuane's POV that casts doubt on the success of the cleansing-which is something RJ put in at the end to watch us squirm.  RJ did say in an interview that the affects of the taint remain, so the Ways are probably still tainted.  The Ways will have to be cleansed or rebuilt from scratch.  I do think it can be done, but I don't think RJ will spend a lot of time on it unfortunately, there's just too much going on.


created: 2001-12-12 20:29:07
subject: <b>The Ways will never be cleaned...</b>
body:
I posted a theory about this so you can all go read it and I may be dead wrong but I think the ways will never be cleaned and Fain/Mordeth will be cast in there and locked up until some unsuspecting Aes Sedai tries to find a new source of power for both men and women...<br /><br />As for the Talisman of Growing... it'll be destroyed. After all Loial is going around killing Waygates. Why still keep the Talisman?<br /><br />Ciel the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 20:43:40
subject: <b>can be used...</b>
body:
the ways can be used, the only real danger is if they start decaying more, and Machin Shin.  Which can be warded, Liandrin said so in book two while taking Nyn. Elayne, Min  and Egwene to Falme.  Egwene asked about Machin Shin, and Liandrin says she'll deal with it, that there were some things Moiraine didn't know.  So apparently theres a way to avoid it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 23:10:54
subject: <b>It should work</b>
body:
About what mystery said, You have to remember that Liandrin was Black ajah, and so may have had an affinity for machin sin, although since the trollocs and myddraal didn't....i dunno...perhaps it had something to do with the darker ajah. Anyway, The ways should be able to be added on to, if not rebuilt. It's like with the cleansing of saidin. Those who are insane will stay insane, so what is decayed in the ways will staty decayed, and as for new &quot;branches&quot; and channelers, the taint won't be there, The only thing they will have to look out for is machin sin.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-28 11:35:00
subject: <b>Wow!!</b>
body:
Wow! This is really good.  Another thougth on why Shadowspawn wouldn't be able to use hte ways. There wouldn't be any waygates in the Blight, so the would have to make their way UNSEEN to a waygate to use it.  How would we disconnect the old system, though?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-07 16:43:19
subject: <b>The Ways are still tainted</b>
body:
Of course the Ways are still tainted and Machin Shin is still searching for souls, etc. Just because Rand may or may not have cleansed saidin doesn't mean that all evil in the Ways has been reversed. The corruption (pitted stone, fallen bridges, etc.) will still be there but I believe that it won't advance anymore (unless the taint on saidin comes back). <br /><br />I believe that the Ways as we know them are of no more use to our heroes unless they can find a way to ward (or something) against Machin Shin.<br /><br />I agree with Jim about how the whole world in which The Ways are in is tainted, evil, etc. I don't agree with Moridin 2000 about cleansing one Waygate and building new ones from it because of this. I believe that the world of The Ways could be one of the &quot;Maybe&quot; worlds (kind of like the Portal Stones worlds) or some alternate reality where either time or distance is shifted. I think that if the good guys need/want to build new ways they will have to start over from scratch and build a whole new system in a new world/reality. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 21:13:42
subject: <b>im sure its possible</b>
body:
it probably just wont happen. no one cares much about the ways. exept loial, but, hes loial. and ogier. what can i say?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-16 16:04:15
subject: <b>Aviendha identified the talisman</b>
body:
When Avi was going through identifying all the ter'angreal, I could've sword there was a leaf or something that made her think of growing.  Anyone have the passage handy?<br /><br />Also, my 2c on the issue is that, since the ways are like a living thing, maybe they'll just get better.  &quot;Heal&quot; slowly over time, just like they darkened slowly over time.  Maybe at the end of book 12 someone will report that some of the pitting seems to be better, or the dark isn't quite so oppresive or something.


created: 2001-09-10 02:26:12
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
I think that it makes sense! The one thing that i think that i would want should this healing thing come to pass would be for Rand to Learn Healing and do it himself. That way, he would have a chance to redeem himself, at least in his own eyes, for all of the killing that he has had to do by using healin to win. A nice parallel between Rand having to sacrifice and the Sacrifice of the Lamb in Revelations in that love (or a good, peaceful force like Healing) will triumph over evil. Booyah!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 14:03:00
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
First off the bore isn't just a hole in the Pattern.  The DO's prison is outside the Pattern, SG is a place where there is a thinness in the Pattern so that you can sense the bore there.<br /><br />Second off, I believe that Fel's message to Rand about clearing rubble and rebuilding had to do with sealing the DO back up, which to me means that they will have to destroy the DO's prison and rebuild it.  Evidence for this being possible is that Lanfear believed that her and Rand could challenge the Creator with the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />Also on a bit of a side note, I don't think that Rand will ever have to fight the DO, it seems more likely that he will fight with the DO's avatar, either Moridin or Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 20:32:43
subject: <b>I think it works...</b>
body:
The theory is good.  Just one thing.  Put Logan in place of Flinn (honors and halo and all).  He has to fulfill this somehow.  Or maybe it will be reversed.  Logan will defend Rand while Rand does the &quot;fixing&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Active member years ago, back for KoD.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 15:13:28
subject: <b>Hole in the soul?</b>
body:
Ok, we know that there probably are souls in WoT (how else would the DO get a hold of his minions when they were dead?).  I always thought of the hole that Nyny found being a hole in his soul, which was the part linked to channeling.  In fact, if you could actually find that part you might even be able to give them the ability to channel (chances are, if it is possible, and i don't think it it, it would burn out the person, no matter how strong they are, possibly take the talent out of them because of the balance there is going on).<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />The look of the eyeless is fear, huh?  Well, how do they know we're looking at them?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-14 11:50:28
subject: <b>ABSOLUTELY GENIUS!</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> I was thinking how they would be able to repair the bore and when I read your theory it was just as if the thoughts had come out of my head. If there is another way to reseal the hole I don't think it would work half so well as the one you have proposed here. Good job and keep up that great theorizing.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tamer of The Squirrels<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ruler over small Furry creatures<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Zadok Mahir</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 21:28:07
subject: <b>JUST ONE QUESTION!!!!!</b>
body:
where and when did you find out what kinda weave will be needed to reseal the bore?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 10:33:46
subject: <b>Answer for the question above</b>
body:
Actually, I found it out on this theory post a few months ago, when somebody (I can&#180;t recall and was too lazy to look it up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />) mentioned something like &quot;Aligning the Matrix&quot; and a possible ter&#180;angreal which might do the opposite of balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />. Based on this, there was a theory that the bore had to be rewoven instead of just covered by a seal which finally led me to this theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />. Happy?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 03:04:22
subject: <b>very rj ish</b>
body:
i've been thinkin' alot on a bunch of things about rj.  and have come to the comclusion if it is flat out obvious then it is dead wrong.  fy following this theory somethings actually make more sense.  someday i might post it.  anyway just saying that what was written hear seems to make more sense in an rj sort of way then just an all out choatic battle.  i like it!<br /><br />raistlin dourden<br />archmage darkelf<br />master of past, present, future, well all of time basically.


created: 2002-05-17 07:38:01
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
I think that why'll Nynaeve and Flinn are trying to seal the bore, the Dragon Reborn(Rand al'Thor) will fight the Dark ONe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Balefireguy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Unraveler of time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Creator of Paradoxes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 17:50:24
subject: <b>Questions</b>
body:
Won't someone have to stuff the Dark One's hand back in?<br /><br />Won't the &quot;rubble&quot; from Lews Therin's seals be in the way of healing the prison?  Would this rubble have to be cleared first?<br /><br />Rand sees alternate lives, all ending with &quot;I have won again, Lews Therin.&quot;  Perhaps in the other cycles of the Wheel the Dark One keeps thinking he wins, only to get sealed in again by someone else?  (But then, why does he forget every time around?)<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-09 11:30:20
subject: <b>A little reply from a tinker</b>
body:
I like your theory, and agree the Flinn would be the right person to help Nynaeve, but this brings up two questions.  <br /><br />1. Would Rand let someone else use the male key? <br />2. Or is this what Cads. is going to teach him?  <br />


created: 2002-10-08 15:34:06
subject: <b>I agree, in part.</b>
body:
Rand will very likely be involved in any great big pursuits like remaking the Dark One's prison. He has been able to do incredible things with the power whenever he needs to, so will likely figure out how to remake the prison regardless of his lack of Healing ability. I just don't see Flinn coming along and becoming that major of a character. <br /><br />Furthermore, Narishma will likely be using Callandor in the last battle, as foreshadowed/seen by Min. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


