# w_comment

created: 2006-01-15 20:32:55
subject: <b>What about Tam</b>
body:
Didn't Rand learn about the void from Tam who was a blademaster while serving in Illian?  Though there could be a connection with the void that blademasters strive for and the fact that swords was a game that was turned into a weapon by Aes Sedai.


created: 2006-01-30 12:09:15
subject: <b>I don't think so but...</b>
body:
As I was reading some of these comments I was thinking. Galad can't channel, but what if he could still touch the true source. Maybe the oneness is a way to touch the true source but only channelers can tap into that power. Wouldn't that explain why everyone has better senses when the assume the oneness. I could be entirely wrong but I just thought I'd put it out there.


created: 2006-04-18 03:59:35
subject: <b>not channeling but genetics are good</b>
body:
he was only in the oneness IMO but the genetics make sense, he SHOULD have a 75% chance of being able to channel and a 25% chance of the spark inborn.  I have gathered that channeling is genetic recessive so someone w/ 1 channeling aleal would be able to learn while someone w/ 2 would have spark.


created: 2007-10-10 15:17:54
subject: <b>Not at all</b>
body:
I haven't read much of the books, and forgotten much, but wasn't those enchanted senses a part of the Void/Oneness, and not holding Saidin? I have seen that Saidin does it too, but maybe that is just an &quot;enchantment of enchanted senses?&quot; Sorry if this theory seem mad... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-06-02 18:30:19
subject: <b>Really don't think so</b>
body:
Were Galad channeling, when from his point of view, or even holding the power, we would get the usual destription of channeling, like all the power coursing through him and the totering on the brink of explosion.<br />It is, however, possible.............<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I have been called to change the world.&quot;<br />Napoleon Bonaparte</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 09:28:10
subject: <b>Have to disagree</b>
body:
With all your conclusions:<br /><br /><b> 1) Egwene is sentenced to death or stilling by Elaida. </b><br /><br />We see in the end of KoD, prologue, that Elaida doesn't want Egwene stilled or dead (I figure this theory was written before the whole e-book was available).<br /><br />Elaida could change her will, but I'm not sure how long Elaida will still be the Amyrlin anyway, considering that the Seanchan will probably attack the White Tower quite soon.<br /><br /><b> 2) Galad comes in and rescues her, killing Younglings in the process. </b><br /><br />Galad is in Amadicia at the moment and doesn't know about Egwene's fate.<br /><br />Even if he somehow learns about it, he can hardly march with his Whitecloak army to Tar Valon in time, and certainly can't successfully attack Tar Valon with only 7000 men.<br /><br /><b> 3) Gawyn seeks vengeance for his comrades-in-arms. The half-brothers fight each other, and Gawyn dies. </b><br /><br />I seriously doubt that Gawyn would fight Galad, and vice versa.<br />They have a very close relationship, especially since Galad saved Gawyn's life, when Gawyn was a child.<br /><br /><b> 4) Berelain falls in love with Galad, who does not love her back. She might kill herself over it (though I don&#8217;t deem that last point too likely). </b><br /><br />If Galad were Berelain's man in white, Min had said it.<br />As you quoted, she also recognized Galad in a viewing she had of Egwene.


created: 2005-08-01 10:38:39
subject: <b>Voted yes, but don't agree with predictions</b>
body:
Excellent recounting of Arthurian legend and comparisons.<br /><br />I just don't think that RJ is going to make the plots so exact.<br /><br />His borrowings are very loose.<br /><br />Still, a very helpful resume of the corresponences with the Arthurian tales.


created: 2005-08-01 10:53:53
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
and for that reason I voted against that theory. After all by using similar logic Nynaeve(Nimue) would first seduce Thom MERriLIN and when she had learnt all that he knew she would trap him inside oak. After all that happened to Merlin.


created: 2005-08-01 12:12:48
subject: <b>I loved it, but</b>
body:
RJ is way too nice to his characters to let them suffer that. - We will end up with two happy surviving couples. But I would have liked it more otherwise.<br />


created: 2005-08-01 13:54:13
subject: <b>Nice linking</b>
body:
However, Gawyn is completely head over heels in love with Egwene. Completely and utterly. He wouldn't even avenge his mother's &quot;death&quot; because of a promise to Egwene. You really think that he would let her die or be stilled?<br /><br />There may be some conflict between him and Galad as Gawyn will not try it on with a woman who has taken Galad's eye. Or rather some conflict with Gawyn and himself, over his love for Egwene and his &quot;obligation&quot; to Galad. <br /><br />Still, even if there is some conflict, it will not be bloody or too bad. Even if Gawyn makes room for Galad, Egwene loves Gawyn not Galad, and I doubt she would change her mind.<br /><br />And there is always the fact that Galad does everything that is right, even if it causes him harm.... Killing Gawyn for a woman's heart that he cannot posess? That don't sound right...


created: 2005-08-02 06:56:57
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Etzel:<br />Excellent counter-argument. Concerning the first point, I have only read a small excerpt of the beginning of the KOD prologue, so no, I didn't know about what happens or not later on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Second point is the best, I was aware of it to say the truth. In fact, I'll go so far as saying I know the theory isn't really probable, but I wrote it mainly because I thought it was an interesting comparison between Arthurian myths and what happens in WOT. Though the outcome will probably be different, I found the speculation interesting and thought maybe others would like to read about it - and thus I decided to share it. Just something to think about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Third point: aware of that too. But if Gawyn demanded a duel from Galad in the name of vengeance or honor, would Galad refuse him ? More, if Gawyn was really set on fighthing he could very well force Galad into the duel. I don't believe Galad would be happy about it, of course, but it could happen. After all, we've already seen that Gawyn is a bit irrational in his own way and can choose to believe some very wrong things (1) he helped to put Elaida as Amyrlin and 2) he still hates Rand for supposedly killing Morgase and stealing the throne).<br />Fourth: nice point, but I'm not sure. I have to say I have often hoped the man in white would be an Aiel gai'shain. THAT would be fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />reptile: Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />arilind: I'm not sure about RJ's kindness to say the truth ! Still, I'd like to see it happen this way. But that's also because I hate Gawyn with a passion, and grew to like Galad a lot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />harrymonk:<br />Agreed about Egwene's love. But I didn't predict they would end up together anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> According to the analogy, Egwene would remain with the sisters and Galad with the Children of the Light. They would not marry, nor live together or even near each other. As such, Egwene doesn't have to love him at all.<br />About Galad killing Gawyn over Egwene, simple: he wouldn't. In the theory I wrote, Gawyn would come to Galad for a duel about a point of honor, to avenge the Younglings Galad would have had to kill. Galad would only kill in self-defense (probably even not meaning to do it), and the whole affair would be only indirectly connected to Egwene.<br /><br /><br />Also, forgot to post my thanks in the theory, so I figured I'll do it here instead...<br /><br />Thanks to:<br />*My friend Myaah for first seeing the connection. And teaching me to learn Galad.<br />*The Wikipedia, a nice ressource to clear up a few hazy memories on Arthurian legends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Do you like good artworks? Me too.<br />http://myaah.free.fr<br />~ Includes WOT fanarts.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 10:49:29
subject: <b>Nice effort Stefanof</b>
body:
Don't really agree, but nice effort <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You might be interested in a FAQ here in our FAQ section entitled The Matter of Britain and the Wheel of Time.  It's a two-parter and rather long, but kinda fun if you're into the Arthurian at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 12:08:56
subject: <b>Of course !</b>
body:
Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out right away <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Do you like good artworks? Me too.<br />http://myaah.free.fr<br />~ Includes WOT fanarts.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 20:24:45
subject: <b>celibacy amongst the children of light?</b>
body:
is there a vow of celibacy associated with entry into the the children of light? i don't recall seeing any mention of whitecloaks having &quot;significant others&quot; throughout the series &lt;prepares for flaming&gt;. given their rather puritanical and zealously pious portrayal (other than valda alleging to have bosched morgase) as a bunch of warrior monks, i'd be quite surprised if they were actually allowed to espouse or have any sort of intimate relations. hence, i find it unlikely that galad (ultra conservative, law-abiding type)would be inclined to act from the heart in matters of egwene or berelain or anybody else for that matter (at least, while he continues to be a whitecloak)


created: 2005-08-03 03:13:13
subject: <b>celibacy amongst the children of light?</b>
body:
nwaz, of course there is absolute celibacy. They are all chaste and permanently so. Dain Bornhald sprung fully-formed from the forehead of his father Geoffram. It was a virgin birth and Dain's arrival was trumpeted by the Creator and witnessed by 13 Ogier Elders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-08-03 16:33:42
subject: <b>WHAT!!!!</b>
body:
I am sorry but this has gone on to long about Galad, and Gawyn, and Egwene.  If you remember Egwene had a dream where she saw herself about to be beheaded and Gawyn was rushing through a crowd to save her life, but she does not know if he does.  Did you see Galad any where in that?!<br /><br />Also Galad is no where near Tar Valon at the time and I don't see RJ spending half the book making him head there just to fight his brother.  Sorry but that theory really doesn't hold water for me.


created: 2005-08-03 17:09:23
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
I like how u saw all those connections and i think they are right in a way. they resemble characters from the arthurian legends, but i dont think its gonna end up the way u conclude. i think gawyn would give basically anything up for egwene.<br />but nice theory. i like. lol


created: 2005-08-08 22:43:25
subject: <b>immaculate conception</b>
body:
i see (mickydee), coz of course geoff was also born a &quot;child of light&quot; and as such could never have had a pre-whitecloak existence (during which dain might have been sprogged perhaps followed by maternal mortality and paternal vow-taking).... all things are possible under the light, as they say. anyways, pedantics aside, i was just being contentious and on balance reckon gal and ber probably will end up doing the do. given the awkward task rj has set himself of finishing the series off inside two books however, i can't see such a minor plotline receiving much page-time...... at least i hope not, but then it is rj - who's never been one to use a few lines when a few pages were absolutely unnecessary! (does that make sense? - who cares!)


created: 2005-08-09 23:22:15
subject: <b>Well Done</b>
body:
Nicely written.  I dug your theory.  I voted yes, but I don't think it'll actually happen (just wanted to support your theory on account of it being so well-written and what not).  Kinda wish RJ would throw us a few twists like this, instead of the everbody-lives-happily-ever-after ending it looks like we're gonna get.


created: 2005-08-14 21:49:39
subject: <b>I don't get it</b>
body:
I understand the link to Arthurian legend and the characters within. <br />Galad = Galahad, ok I get that.<br />Gawyn = well Gawyn, I get that too.<br />Egwene = Gwynevere, yep, still with.<br /><br />What I don't understand is how these three people are used in a theory stating they will live out the love triangle between Arthur, Lancelot and Gwynevere. Maybe I'm missing something here, but if I was a writer inteding to base events in my story on pre existing legends, and I had gone to all the trouble of creating character names to mimic those said legends, I would use the characters to correspond to the legend I was trying to parallel.<br /><br />Gawyn and Galahad had nothing (or very little) to do with the whole love triangle thing, so I really struggle to see it happening this time around, sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-29 22:09:12
subject: <b>Hm. Really well thought out!</b>
body:
I voted yes... but I don't think Galad would go that quickly to Egwene... maybe Nynaeve, but not Egwene. Interesting theory, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Don't mess with me, fool. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> I do believe I'm in a neverending state of confusion. Oh well!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-31 13:06:58
subject: <b>Galad is NOT the man in white</b>
body:
Galad is too far away, geographically and plot-wise to be the man in white. <br /><br />It's gonna be that Rohan dude (name?), the one who captured Faile and she's thinking of shagging. That would successfully complete the Berelain/Faile/Perrin love fiasco. Berelain will fall again for a man that is closely associated with Faile, this Rohan dude. Faile will make Berelain work for it, and then give over Rohan (who will obv. be a gai'shan) to her, which will forestall Berelain from wanting Perrin anymore, and make Faile happy to have no competition.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 17:43:22
subject: <b>Mess indeed.</b>
body:
Very well presented and thorough connections to the Arthurian scenes, thank you.<br /><br />I cannot agree with much of the theorizing, however.<br /><br />Galad and Berelain will meet just before the attack against the Shaido. For whoever said Galad wasn't close enough geographically to meet up with Berelain, check again.  He definitely isn't close enough to Tar Valon, and wouldn't think of bringing a Whitecloak army against the White Tower while he is also considering an alliance with them against the Seanchan. But as the new Lord Captain Commander, he will move the Children away from both Ebou Dar and Illian, and that will take him straight toward Malden.<br /><br />Someone else commented on Egwene's dream of being on the headsman's block. SOMEONE is rushing to save her in time, but her dream does not identify the someone as Gawyn. That said, I would expect to be him, or Rand. I've always suspected that Egwene would force her way into Rand's dream if she got into too much trouble. I know she'd try that long before she'd let herself fall into Gawyn's dream again, though she just might if desperate enough.<br /><br />For whoever commented that Galad wouldn't act from his heart even in favor of a woman he loves, find and read &quot;Embers on Dry Grass&quot;, the published prologue of KoD.<br /><br />Whatever the connection between Egwene and Galad, romance isnt in it. Egwene and Gawyn are in each others' pockets, and Gawyn and Galad surely wouldn't duel each other over a girl.<br /><br />The part of the theory linking Berelain with Elaine who commits suicide because of unrequited love has merit. The viewing about Berelain says that she'd fall head over heels with a dude in white, it doesn't say her feelings would be returned. If Galad is Galahad, as he surely seems, is Taringail Damodred then Lancelot? He was always known to be ambitious, and proved himself quite power hungry before the end. Lancelot never sought power, and succumbed only to Gweneviere's attentions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-05 10:44:45
subject: <b>Nice one!</b>
body:
It&#180;s really a good writed theory with a lot connections and evidence.<br /><br />But as many other I don&#180;t think RJ would do that to his characters.


created: 2006-12-18 18:29:40
subject: <b>why is this here....</b>
body:
Why is this in the KoD category, when no one posting has any clue what happends in KoD???<br /><br />OT: &quot;Gawyn = well Gawyn, I get that too.&quot;<br />It's Gawain, or Gwain, or something like that, depending on the book you're reading. Never Gawyn completely. And overall, I have to disagree with the theory, although the names are very suggestive. I don't know why RJ went to all the trouble to name 3/4 of his main characters after Arturian legends then not follow their stories at all. It makes not sense. Not only is there Egwene, Galad, and Gawyn, but there's also:<br />Thom Merrilin (unless he gets trpped w/ the Aelfinn forever by Moraine or Nynaeve, this holds. &gt;_<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve herself (Nimue)<br />Rand al'Thor (as someone said al'thor == arthur)<br />Arthur Paendrag is a total duh (Pendragon = Arthur's last name in case some of y'all don't follow Arthurian stuff much. BUT, in WoT remember that Artur has no Merlin figure, hates the one power, and got destroyed by fighting the one tower, hardly a Mordred/Morgan LeFay/Love Triangle story. About the only parallel is his immense empire).<br />Elaine. There are 3 main Elaines in Arthurian legend. Lancelot's mother, Lancelot's lover (Galahad's mother), and Morgan Le Fay's sister.<br />Morgase. Morgause is a sister of Morgan Le Fay, a half sister of Arthur himself, sleeps with Arthur to produce Mordred, and is the wife of King Lot (early enemy of King Arthur). Her legitimate sons (at last a connection!) are Gawain, Gaheris, Gareth, and Agravaine (villian/traitor).<br /><br />I'm sure there are more, as I was unable to find a good paralell to the name Lancelot du Lac, although stretching it a bit, Lan might fit. He's a good fighter, but he certainly doesn't steal Rand's girl. Lancelot is raised by the lady of the lake, who is often connected to Nimue I believe (Nynaeve).<br /><br />So yea that wen't on waay longer than I meant it to, but you get the point. There are a lot of name connections to Arthurian shiz, but the stories don't fit the names at all.<br /><br />--------<br /><br />&quot;Concerning the first point, I have only read a small excerpt of the beginning of the KOD prologue, so no, I didn't know about what happens or not later on&quot;<br /><br />Which is exactly why this should not be a KoD theory.....<br /><br />&quot;It's gonna be that Ro[l]an dude, the one who captured Faile and she's thinking of shagging&quot;<br />In KoD, this guy gets his head banged in by Perrin. Seeing as this is a KoD thoery, everyone who reads this should know this. Fairly short love triangle. And no, Faile doesn't sleep with him.<br /><br />In my opinion, the man in white is a Gai'shain, as that's how the aiel refer to them (&quot;in white&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, Egwene is aiel-trained, and therefore more likely to use their terminilogy than to refer to a whitecloak as &quot;in white.&quot;


created: 2005-08-02 08:47:22
subject: <b>Already said that in my theory.</b>
body:
Ituralde achieved what he wanted to do in Tarabon.<br />According to his thoughts, he will as retreat as quickly as possible to Arad Doman to lure the Seanchan army into his trap.<br />The Whitecloak army would be rather hindering for Ituralde at the moment.<br /><br />Therefore I don't agree. <br />I think it makes more sense for the WC to try to free their former headquarter.<br /><br />However, I agree that the thought about Rand could be foreshadowing of a meeting between them.<br /><br />Furthermore, since Ituralde calls Rand &quot;the Dragon Reborn&quot;, not e.g. a False Dragon, it indicates that he even accepts Rand as the true Dragon Reborn.<br />And that could indicate that Ituralde will fight for Rand in the end.


created: 2005-08-02 12:12:33
subject: <b>I still like this idea....</b>
body:
even though I also liked Etzel's idea of retaking the Fortress of Light. Am I waffling?<br /><br />Not necessarily. And nothing to say that both can't be partly or wholly correct, either. If Galad retakes the Fortress, he gains more troops, but is he just going to sit there surrounded by enemies? I think not. With food supplies dwindling, there's no way he could hold out in a seige against the Seanchan. Plus we have already seen the FoL overrun by their forces before this, and rather quickly and easily.<br /><br />I think RJ might have set up this whole scenario in TGH, which will now come in handy. Recall that Pedron Niall gave protection to Tarabon and Arad Doman from the &quot;Dragonsworn&quot; hordes after the events at Falme. The Taraboners should remember this, and it puts the Whitecloaks in a favorable position to gain them some allies now. <br /><br />As the Seanchan chase Ituralde north, Galad could gather some of those Taraboners that fought for Ituralde, perhaps others as well, pursue them from behind, and catch the Seanchan in-between their forces.<br /><br />Once the Seanchan are taken care of, then the two can join forces. <br /><br />That's my plan D, Ken. Thumbs up from me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 12:49:42
subject: <b>This, too, is a great theory</b>
body:
Along with Etzel`s, and LitN`s input, the Children at Galad`s command, along with those he breaks free from chains, will form a pincer movement to defeat the Seanchan.<br /><br />Only 71 days for the truth to emerge. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 15:25:12
subject: <b>Another point in favor of this idea is ...</b>
body:
... in the last two Prologues, we've had Ituralde's PoV either directly proceed (CoT) or directly succeed (KoD) a Whiteclock PoV.  If I were writing the story, and intended for the two groups to join up eventually, I'd put those PoVs adjacent in the Prologues, too, as a sort of hint as to what's to come.<br /><br />Anyway ... Nice theory, I gave it a thumb's up.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 00:33:02
subject: <b>Nothing wrong with the theory, but I disagree</b>
body:
Nor do I think he will retake the Fortress of the Light for long if it all.<br /><br />Free the Whitecloak prisoners?  Yes.  This is an obvious tactical objective.  We don't know exactly where the prisoner/slaves are being held, however.  Maybe not exactly in the Fortress.  Freeing them would dbe more like a raid.<br /><br />Head further East? Yes. That;s where some of the action is and cliser to Andor, join with more allies, get some potential Aes Sedai protectionfrom the damane.  <br /><br />I think it's been something like 9 days since the first scene at the end of the prologue  Allowing a couple of days for organization, taking over the children, etc. that should allow Galad to have moved 200/250 miles across Amadicia and about ready to strike to free the prisoners.  And the Seanchan in his area are running short of scouts.  On this time line, might be in place to make the strike and then move further East.<br /><br />Mat is moving North, maybe another 50/100 miles by this time.  The Band of the Red Hand has been working its way South for at least six weeks or so (And Galad has met Mat.  Could have moved into Altara.<br /><br />And, of course, Perrin is in Northern Altara, as is Morgase, Galad's step mother for whom he killed his predeccessor.<br /><br />AND Rand appears to heading for a meeting with Suroth in Altara.<br /><br />I'm not sure if Mat will end up joining Perrin, but right now. Altara is where the action is.  It's where I expect Galad to find himself eventually.<br /><br />I'm Not saying all these forces will unify in a single action, but they might.  I just think that Galad will partake of the action in this theater, and participating in  Tarabon might even disrupt Ituralde's plans.<br /><br />But hey, maybe I'm wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-08-03 01:00:25
subject: <b>Bravo!</b>
body:
Best theory I've heard in weeks! I can't wait 'til KoD is out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 04:48:53
subject: <b>Supporting Information</b>
body:
In the prologue we hear Banner General Yulan report to Suroth.<br /><i>but may I suggest leaving the raken in <b>Amadicia</b> and those assigned to Banner-General Khirgan. Raken are the best way we have to locate Aiel, and in two days we still haven&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t found those Whitecloaks</i><br />I would conclude from this, some might disagree, that if the whitecloaks cannot be found, they obviously aren&#194;&#180;t there. They have already crossed to Tarabon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 07:47:59
subject: <b>Talathar's point</b>
body:
It could be that they are in Tarabon.  Good point.<br /><br />But maybe they are just being sneaky.  Like in the last book.  Moving through forests, under trees, etc. for a sneak attack in Amadicia.  That's my guess, based on instinct.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.<br /><br />But right now the truth is a flip of the coin.  Talathar might be right, also.


created: 2005-08-03 08:42:18
subject: <b>Not conclusive, Talathar.</b>
body:
After all, the Seanchan also have many raken in Tarabon.<br />And if most other raken are also moved to Tarabon now, they should find the Whitecloaks quite soon if they actually are there.<br />But then the WC can hardly surprise the Seanchan in Tarabon, while this will be possible in Amadicia.<br /><br />Besides, if the Seanchan General Staff believes that the WC are still somewhere in Amadicia, I rather trust their opinion.<br /><br />I think RJ made Suroth decide to move the raken from Amadicia against the reasonable will of the Generals, to give the WC the opportuniy to win their home back in a quick strike.<br /><br />After that Galad will certainly search allies, though.


created: 2005-08-03 11:27:22
subject: <b>responses...</b>
body:
<b>Etzel #1<br /><br /><blockquote>Ituralde achieved what he wanted to do in Tarabon.<br />According to his thoughts, he will as retreat as quickly as possible to Arad Doman to lure the Seanchan army into his trap.<br />The Whitecloak army would be rather hindering for Ituralde at the moment.<br /><br />Therefore I don't agree. <br />I think it makes more sense for the WC to try to free their former headquarter.</blockquote></b><br /><br />I agree that it is the intent of Ituralde to retreat as quick as he can, but, he does have to pause a bit to make sure he is followed. However, the most important thing to consider is that Ituralde is flexible. He is one of the great generals and he knows that plans change - for better or worse. When the opportunity comes to add 7000 trained and diciplined toops to his ranks, he will take it, regardless of any delay it will take. Also, dut to the training of the troops, I expect the delay will be small.<br /><br />I disagree about the freeing of the other WC's. I see why this would be a tempting thing for Galad to do, but we see Galad speak exactly what he plans:<br /><br /><blockquote><i>&quot;What would you </i>[Galad]<i>do, then?&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;Have the Children find someone, anyone, who is fighting the Seanchan and ally with them.&quot; </i></blockquote><br /><br />This indicates to me the first priority for Galad is not to free the prisoners, but ally with someone against the Seanchan. With Galad's personality, it is likely he will do exactly as he says.<br /><br />I'm glad you like the bit about the DR and such - I think it will be interesting to see how RJ brings Ituralde into the overall fight. Wouldn't it be great if Rand shows up to organize a strike against Graendal's palace? That would not happen though.<br /><br /><b>Light in the Night</b><br /><br />I'm glad you liked it John. You're idea is interesting about the Seanchan between two forces. We'll have to see how it works out - Etzel's ideas have quite a bit of merit as well. At least we will know by the end of KOD.<br /><br /><b>jofraz</b><br /><br />Good to see you around Jo. Glad you liked it.<br /><br /><b>Shishka</b><br /><br />Good point about the organization. When reading the prologue I took it as a good sign that Ituralde immediately followed Galad's POV.<br /><br /><b>reptile #1</b><br /><br />I often disagree with theories that are well done - differing opinions and theories are one the great things about WoT.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm not sure that 9 nine days covered with the Prologue are correct, but it could be - since sometime has passed from Galad's POV to Ituralde's and Suroth's. I agree, that in ideal conditions Galad could move that far, but conditions are far from ideal. Several of those days would be taken up to Galad making his claim and gathering 7000 WC's to him. Now, he's a deserter in enemy territory, and the enemy has supurb scouting capabilities. Galad's movement is likely very cautious and slow. The desire to strike east does not make too much sense since the bulk of the Seanchan forces are to the east - though this may be desirable since he wants to fight them. As I've said, the news of Ituralde's attack will bring Galad west and north.<br /><br />I agree that a convergence of people and the plot lines is in order. I just think that Galad will take the scenic route to get there: ally with Ituralde, help him spring the trap, then Rand shows up out of thin air and brings the whole force to a staging point of all the armies - I'm guessing it will be in Murundy. But this all my speculation.<br /><br /><b>son_of_battles</b><br /><br />thanks!<br /><br /><b>Talathar</b><br /><br />Thanks for the extra bit. I do believe Galad is in Tarabon, but the fact the raken haven't seen them does not prove it. Actually with RJ's sense of irony, the tactical error of moving all raken to Tarabon favors Etzel's idea more than mine. Anyway things are getting very interesting in Seanchan controlled territory.<br /><br /><b>reptile #2</b><br /><br />Yep!<br /><br /><b>Etzel #2</b><br /><br />Yeah, as I said above - the move of the raken to Tarabon supports the WC's staying in Amadacia. However, remember the meeting where Galad gained the 7000 loyal troups was in Tarabon. I'm not sure the Seanchan general's opinion is all that great - afterall he hasn't found the WC's yet and can only guess at Galad's plans and goals.<br /><br />Anyway we'll see how it all works out - knowing RJ it will be something else from what we've put together.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 14:32:41
subject: <b>Not the Fortress of the Light...</b>
body:
Jordan attended the Citadel so I&#226;&#8364;&#8482;m going to assume he is no military dummy. For that reason I agree with this theory more than the one promoting the retaking the Fortress of the Light. Galad attempting to do so would be out of character for a cool, level-headed, calculating guy like him. To take a stronghold you need 10 times the number of forces than your opposition. If the defenders have channeler's (which we can assume they do) double it at least. That means the Fortress can not be garrisoned by more than....say 400 troops. And even if all goes according to plan sieges without air support (raken or Aes Sedai) take tiiiiime. It also would NOT represent the type of blow to the Seachans that we assume Galad wants to inflict. <br /><br />He's not dumb, he's going to use his resources in an offensive that maximizes his chances of receiving minimal casualties while inflicting significant wounds. As others have points out, 7000 is not a lot of troops compared with the size of other existing forces. I&#226;&#8364;&#8482;ll bet he finds one wolf (The Wolf) or the other (Perrin) and leaves the Fortress of the Light as a symbol to his troops as to &#226;&#8364;&#339;why we fight.&#226;&#8364;? Winning back the Fortress of the Light and freeing the hostages has little tactical value at WAY to much cost.<br /><br />There is also the matter of the Aes Sedai. Jordan CLEARLY has shown us a dagger in Act 1 (from the adage, &#226;&#8364;&#339;don&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t show me a dagger in Act 1 if you don&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t intend to use it by Act 3&#226;&#8364;?). This means whatever path he takes needs to lead him to some Aes Sedai quickly. While not likely, it is also not outside the realm of possibility that he ALREADY has access to one or more Aes Sedai. Probably not one that can travel but perhaps freed Aes Sedai damane. Though the hint that 7000 WC &#226;&#8364;&#339;disappeared&#226;&#8364;? seems to support either the ability to move at great speed or stealth (again, pure speculation on my part). Regardless, he needs to show WC and Aes Sedai working together by the end of this book and the most likely place for that to occur would be with Perrin&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s crowd (what was the mouth&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s to feed comment?)<br /><br />No, I don&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t see how freeing the Fortress of the Light advances the story or makes logical sense. I can buy joining The Wolf for strategic reasons and joining Perrin for storyline reasons. Nothing points to the Fortress of the Light.


created: 2005-08-03 16:52:17
subject: <b>good points</b>
body:
reptile made a good point about Galad possilbly make a raid to free the prisoners.  But I did not see that any where in the bit of BE that I was able to read.  You need to remember Galad does what is right now matter who it hurts, even himself.  If he said that he would find someone who is fight the Seanchan and join them, then that is what he is going to do.  It would make sense for him to cut back across Amadicia and strike to Altara, that is the direction the most fighting has been.  Why would he head further into Seanchan controled lands by going into Tarabon?  It would make sense that even as subjegated allies the WC would know a little about enemy movements from the Seanchan, wouldn't it?  So why would Galad try to race ahead of their army going into Tarabon to join someone who may not be there any more to just turn around and fight the full force on his tail?


created: 2005-08-03 05:37:28
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
I don't see why Demandred would pose as Tumad Ahzkan all the time, especially without controlling Bashere.<br /><br />Mil Tesen is a possibility, because it was only a short time posing, although it could also have been Sammael.<br /><br />Against Jaq Lounalt speaks that he often smiles, while Demandred never smiles.<br />It's more likely that one of Moridin's pets, e.g. Moghedien stays with the Caemlyn besiegers, since also Moridin has shows interest in the Caemlyn situation.<br /><br />As far as I know, RJ said anyway that we didn't see Demandred pose as anyone.<br />Even if he didn't state that, Demandred likes to use proxies (IMO Masema's Dragonsworn, who create lots of chaos in the south of the Westlands).


created: 2005-08-03 12:18:18
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
It seems to me that the whole thing with the rats, and the filth isn't necessarily a sign that the Chosen are around.  I mean, it seems unlikely that there's a Chosen in So Harbor, and that place is about as nasty as it comes.  <br /><br />On the same note, a town that is essentially under siege like Caemlyn is would be a filthy dirty place without any outside influence.  So Harbor has closed it's gates for while now.  People in Caemlyn may be unable to get past the gate guards to empty their garbage, and that means that nothing is geting out.  <br /><br />It would be extrememly difficult for Demandred to effectively be two people at once.  It's not to say that he couldn't have been Mil Tesen, but I don't think he could be Jaq and Tumad.  I also think there are a number of better places for Demandred to be hanging out than in Caemlyn anyways, so I had to vote no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-03 12:40:59
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Jordan has said that we've never seen Demandred's alter ego (assuming he even has one), and I take his word as canon.<br />Also, I have to say I continue to be mystified by the amount of attention that so many theories devote to Tumad.  He's an extremely minor character who's only had three brief appearances and has never done anything suspicious or even particularly interesting.  The only reason anyone even remembers his name is because a handful of Demandred theorists have become fixated on him.<br />On the other hand, I do agree that _something_ is up with Arymilla and Jaq Lounault, and that Mil Tesen appearing where and when he did was awfully convenient.


created: 2005-08-03 14:03:27
subject: <b>I agree with what the others have said.</b>
body:
I don't think Demandred poses as anyone.  The events around Caemlyn have Moridin's influence, not Demandred's.  I find it much more likely that Demandred is only really involved with Masema, something he's probably been at since around the time he was released from the bore.<br /><br />As for Tumad, I think that he is frequently implicated with no evidence and little reason.  The only reason to say that he is Demandred is because Demandred is said to have some link to Rand during the Forsaken coffee hour in WH.  This statement still confuses me, but I find it more likely that it is a proxy that Demandred has near Rand than the Forsaken himself.  I also think it would make more sense that the proxy comes from the Aiel, like one of the Maidens, than a officer with Bashere.


created: 2005-08-04 02:53:37
subject: <b>Demandred is the puppet master...</b>
body:
Demandred has certainly not been spending all his time on the Dragonsworn. In fact, I would estimate that Masema is one of Demandred's smaller projects. He is merely one of Demandred's many proxies.<br /><br />Demandred's proxies include:<br /><br />Masema<br />Asunawa,<br />Taim,<br />Weiramon,<br />Slayer,<br /><br />to name a few.<br /><br />Demandred is creating chaos through the Whitecloaks, the Dragonsworn and the renegade Ashaman under Taim.<br /><br />In addition, he is heavily involved with the overthrow of the Seanchan Empire and was probably behind the weakening of the Borderland defenses as well.<br /><br />However, his primary role is the preperation of the Trolloc Hordes and the marshalling of the new Dreadlords, structuring them into a cohesive military unit for Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />A war of the magintude of Tarmon Gaidon cannot simply be unleashed overnight. Look at the year long build up to the Iraq War. The Shadow's armies need to be drilled, trained and coordinated.<br /><br />Demandred is doing that. Who else has the necessary skills but him?<br /><br />Given all the above, his comment to Moridin at the Tea Party makes perfect sense:<br /><br />&quot;Why have you called us here? I have much to do, and no time for idle talk!&quot;<br /><br />I doubt Demandred has time to pose as anyone...


created: 2005-08-04 19:21:50
subject: <b>I didn't mean that was all he was doing!!</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Demandred has certainly not been spending all his time on the Dragonsworn. In fact, I would estimate that Masema is one of Demandred's smaller projects. He is merely one of Demandred's many proxies.</b></font><br /><br />I believe all of his proxies are like this (Taim being a good example of how Demandred may be the Big Dog in charge, but he does leave his proxies to work on their own when needed.)<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Demandred's proxies include:<br /><br />Masema<br />Asunawa,<br />Taim,<br />Weiramon,<br />Slayer,<br /><br />to name a few.</b></font><br /><br />Weiramon is the only one I disagree with here.  He's too big a fool, and almost all of his military excerises have almost been total disasters (saved by others like Mat in the end.)  Of the other 4, no one could list them as &quot;fools&quot;:  Masema is a rabid fanatic, but he DID have a life before that, and Ingtar shows that the Chosen have picked from the Borderlands before.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Demandred is creating chaos through the Whitecloaks, the Dragonsworn and the renegade Ashaman under Taim.<br /><br />In addition, he is heavily involved with the overthrow of the Seanchan Empire and was probably behind the weakening of the Borderland defenses as well.</b></font><br /><br />I never included the Borderlands in my Theory on his wereabouts and doings, but nabbed all the others.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>However, his primary role is the preperation of the Trolloc Hordes and the marshalling of the new Dreadlords, structuring them into a cohesive military unit for Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />A war of the magintude of Tarmon Gaidon cannot simply be unleashed overnight. Look at the year long build up to the Iraq War. The Shadow's armies need to be drilled, trained and coordinated.<br /><br />Demandred is doing that. Who else has the necessary skills but him?</b></font><br /><br />I love you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I really do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Given all the above, his comment to Moridin at the Tea Party makes perfect sense:<br /><br />&quot;Why have you called us here? I have much to do, and no time for idle talk!&quot;<br /><br />I doubt Demandred has time to pose as anyone...</b></font><br /><br />However much he may be controlling things from behind in the Shadows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> he still has a need to be able to &quot;drop&quot; in from time to time to catch a glimpse of things first hand.  Anyone who relies on someone else to &quot;relay&quot; events to them is asking for betrayal.<br /><br />So it isn't so much that I think he's been spending all of his time masquerading as these people.  But I do think he &quot;pops in&quot; every now and then (why Taim and Masema appear to Rand and Perrin like they are &quot;two men&quot; from time to time...two sets of emotions, two &quot;scents&quot;, etc.)  <br /><br />Oh, another one for you...the Farmer who gave Taim one of the Seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  A farmer, out of no where, is just going to give Taim one of the Seals?  And he's not even Ta'veren!!! <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-04 19:23:49
subject: <b>Oh, and Jordan said...</b>
body:
That as of CoT we have seen every one of the Chosen as &quot;who they are.&quot;  We've seen the person Mesaana is masking as, we've seen who Semirhage is masking as, and we've seen who Demandred is masking as.  All that is left to us is to figure them out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-04 22:23:46
subject: <b>Well sumarized view of people who were suspected</b>
body:
but, RJ has spoken on the subject:<br /><br />Q: &quot;Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?&quot; <br />A: &quot;No.&quot; (I asked twice to make sure.)<br /><br />[Michael Martin, Dayton OH signing] <br /><br />So when i comes to things like this, the Creator (RJ) has final word. So since weve seen all these people on screen at one time or another and (with the exception of Jaq Lounalt, who is a very shady character) they have all had speaking parts. So that is very on screen! If you wish now to find Demmy, ittl be an alter ego/character that has been mentioned by a third party character but never seen. I would probably say that if anything the clues are in LoC through PoD...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-04 22:25:49
subject: <b>Marigan, where does it say that RJ said that weve have</b>
body:
seen who they are? As far as i recall, Demmy has pretty much stayed in the background?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-05 21:42:57
subject: <b>I thought so too</b>
body:
Until someone mentioned in the Sci-Fi Channel interview (back in Feb or Mar I believe it was), he supposedly said that he's shown all of the Chosen in one way or another.<br /><br />I remember reading the person's comments on it thinking, &quot;Well, at least it wasn't RAFO again!&quot;<br /><br />(I'll try and hunt it down...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-06 05:24:12
subject: <b>Jaq Lounalt</b>
body:
I allways thought he is a Seanchan Seeker and that he may be part of a plot between Arymilla and Suroth. It was mentioned somewhere in books that it was strange that Arymilla gained so big support in her claim for the Lion Throne and it could have been acquired by secret support from the Saenchan. Agreement may be something like this:<br /><br />Arymilla gains the Lion Throne, adds it to the Saenchan domain, she will be named Saenchan High Lady and will be given rule over new Saenchan province Andor (maybe something more as well) and Saenchan will gain Andor without fight.<br /><br />So back to Jaq. There isn't much said about him, but he comes from Tarabon, which is controled by Saenchan. There is nothing said about his accent but he wears Taraboner veil, so it could be considered it was caused by that. And he is very skilled with using cords to torture someone which is necessary for Seeker since he can't spill Bloods blood.<br /><br />I like also Moridin's darkfriend theory. But i haven't seen this one anywhere so i decided to add my piece in to confusion as well.


created: 2005-08-06 16:59:41
subject: <b>At least people are going to know who the heck Jaq Lounalt is....FINALLY!</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>So back to Jaq. There isn't much said about him, but he comes from Tarabon, which is controled by Saenchan. There is nothing said about his accent but he wears Taraboner veil, so it could be considered it was caused by that. And he is very skilled with using cords to torture someone which is necessary for Seeker since he can't spill Bloods blood.</b></font><br /><br />It is also convenient that he has the same last name as the deposed Panarch, Amatherea.<br />But everyone is so puzzled HOW Arymilla gained so much power, why anyone is supporting her over Naean or Elenia.  The answer is of course there in her party, not speaking, smiling too much (and it never said Demandred DOESN'T smile...just that it's incredibly RARE!), with that veil and ridiculous mustaches, able to break any one of them with a single cord.<br />I don't doubt Demandred is quite capable of torturing anyone into doing anything he wants, I just don't think he'd waste the time.  Using Compulsion to work them over, planting the notion in their heads that he HAS tortured and broken them...it would take a lot less time, and would certainly be less insulting to him.  Using his own hands to break Rand?  That I CAN see.  But bothering with the nuances of actually torturing petty Andoran nobles?  Why bother when you can brain rape them?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-08 19:00:10
subject: <b>I agree on the principle, not on any of the specifics</b>
body:
First, the quote from Jordan about seing all the Chosen.  I'd like to see it because as I remember it wasn't exactly what you imply in your theory and it's not that recent.  As far as I remember from last year's debates (when Jordan contradicted his former statement with new info) Jordan was just asked if we could figure out who the Chosen were posing at and where they were ar this point and he said yes. That was streching the truth for &quot;Anath&quot; as I recall, Mesaana wasn't quite obvious beyond where she was and for Demandred it left not much choice other than the Taim red-herring.<br /><br />Later he specified that Demandred never posed as Taim, and also that we never saw Demandred in disguise in any scene (he didn't actually add &quot;yet&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />From there many theorized that he simply has no alias and his base of operation is a bit &quot;irrelevant&quot; (he merely lives there), or that uses many alias depending on the agent/proxy he's dealing with at the moment. <br /><br />For example, to order around Masema (who is crazy) he might appear as visions of the Creator in his dreams. For Asunawa he might portray a fictional servant or Joe Blow Questionner if they have to meet in person.<br /><br />For many of his DF proxies he probably not even bother and do like Semirhage and Mesaana do when they need to talk to agents : use a OP mask to hide his features.  He most likely did just that with Slayer in WH.<br /><br />After &quot;Embers&quot; I think we have enough to speculate that's <i>is</i> probably a characteristic of the &quot;trio&quot; : all three seem fond of using OP &quot;masks&quot; to hide their features from agents but more or less going with their one face day to day, or just alter it enough not to be too easily recognized if they showed their true face by accident (it seems that's what Mesaana is doing).  That sounds way more convenient than bothering with a full MoM most of the time, if you ask me.<br /><br />I more or less follow Shannow's reasonning on the issue of Demandred : Demandred is involved with the WK, the BT, perhaps with the events that lead the Borderlands' leaders to all leave their nations together, etc. - and I also agree his mission as he received it or see it is primarly to prepare TG, notably by spreading chaos and weakening the nations by various moves.  After Ishamael's demise he tried to extend this to global leadership of the Shadow and Chosen, but has not really succeeded a big deal (Graendal played a double game, Rahvin, Lanfear and Sammael opposed his leadership plain and simple, and finally Moridin and SH arrived on the scene).  <br /><br />Demandred uses people as proxies, I see him as a strategist/general, not as someone who dirty his hands unless necessary. It's no lack of courage or anything, it's just not what military planning is about.  Before going to the Shadow, he was a holder of high offices and probably well-used to coordinate the work of others. It's qualities that probably made him very suitable for the leadership of the Light's armies, like LTT (nobody knew much or anything of War, these guys were chosen because they knew how to lead/organize). <br /><br />I see him as someone quite economical in his efforts (Graendal can be that way too), not losing time on futile small moves and setting up a base of operation.  I think this is probably one of the mistakes Rhavin, Sammael and Be'lal made that Demandred is way too clever to make. Where they took one country he pushed a bit left and right and destabilized a few.  His armies will overun these territories one day, so why bother keeping them under control now?<br /><br />Demandred follows a bit Ishamael's &quot;global&quot; ways too, except he interferes even less directly - careful to keep away from Rand. <br /><br /><b>&quot;Mil Tesen: The peddler who told Gawyn that Morgase was dead&quot;</b> :<br /><br />I don't buy it.  The peddler was a peddler, IMHO. <i>Everybody</i> was talking about Morgase being dead and spreading news and rumors is what peddlers do beside peddling; I never really understood why so many people find this peddler so suspicious just because he met Gawyn. If it wasn't him, it would have been the next person he met, or the one after that.  I don't see why Demandred or anyone highly placed would have bothered to find Gawyn and tell him about a rumor that was bound to reach him anyway.<br /><br /><b>Tumad Ahzkan: one of the men under Bashere</b><br /><br />The men under Bashere are in a camp with little privacy.  I just don't see how Demandred would portray a man under Bashere &quot;from time to time&quot;. If Ahzkan exists, it's a difficult job to portray him among his peers without raising suspicions, all the more if you take his place only for a while.  If he's fictional (as most of the other disguises of the Chosen we know about for sure)  then it's a lot of people to compel to forget this little fact - and the other fact that the guy disappears without reasons for long streches....  So far the Chosen seem to believe it's way to cumbersome to play existing people - they create fictitious personas instead, lord and ladies nobody heard of previously.. Playing <i>many</i> real people from many nationalities at once would be extremely difficult. Just try to imagine what kind of memory this would take to keep everything straight, without counting accidents like &quot;but Azkhan, yesterday you were saying something else...&quot;.  <br /><br /><br /> Bashere makes sudden moves and decisions - if there's the Shadow behind him (I don't think so myself) then it's pretty clear that Bashere himself is the DF, answering to a Chosen.  Being near him ain't quite enough.<br /><br /><b>&quot;Jaq Lounalt&quot;</b><br /><br />Amathera's name is Lounault, not Lounalt.  The names are similar, and they come from the same country, but that's also Jordan's way of making up various names from a nationality.  Unless there's a mistake the missing letter &quot;u&quot; is quite relevant and there's no link between the two characters.<br /><br />Arymilla has Lounalt following her around.  Again, that's an impossible position for a Chosen to keep, unless taking care of Arymilla is your full job (Aran'gar or Anath style). A Chosen doesn't have to portray someone to get in touch with his/her agents, there are much easier ways. It's never been said that Demandred (unlike Semirhage) had any problem being available for meetings and such.  Obviously he's not caught anywhere he can't easily leave from.<br /><br />I also have a very hard time imagining Demandred as another sadist like Semirhage. He's a man of cold hates and calculations.   <br /><br />There is indeed something dark about Lounalt, but I don't believe he's more than a nasty DF who might in truth be holding the leash on his supposed &quot;mistress&quot;, perhaps under the leadership of Shiaine like so many in Andor seems to be.  I think he's probably just one more &quot;elite DF&quot; like Mili Skane that Moridin rounded up for his plans against Elayne and Andor and sent to Skane.  <br /><br />Encircling Caemlyn and Elayne and pushing the various factions in Andor is very clearly Moridin's doing (with sometimes the services of Moghedien, and quite possibly of Cyndane as well) and it is done mostly via the network of Mili Skane and agents provided to her (like Hanlon, who Moghedien found and ordered there).  <br /><br />Demandred showed a passing interest in Caemlyn (or perhaps just curiosity) at some point, that's quite understandable if he is involved with the BT and making the policies Taim must follow about Elayne, and also with the WK that Morgase fled to. If Demandred does anything around the city, I'd bet it's gonna come from &quot;rogue&quot; Asha'man messing things up a little more than Moridin would perhaps like, not from Andoran nobles involved in the Succession.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-09 20:26:16
subject: <b>The reasons Mil Tesen is suspicious</b>
body:
Gawyn and the embassy are somewhere between Tar Valon and Cairhien heading south-east when Tesen encounters them with the news of Morgase's death. Obviously this rumor/news had not yet reached Tar Valon before the embassy left. <br /><br />And yet, a peddler that is walking and leading a mule, has heard this rumor which most likely originated from the source, i.e. Caemlyn. Not only does he know the rumor of Morgase's death though, but that Rand has also taken Andor. If you will look at the map, you will see the obvious problem with this. Caemlyn is a long way to the south of where this meeting with Gawyn would have taken place. And to top it off, the peddler approaches Gawyn from the west. A strange direction for him to be travelling if he was coming from Caemlyn. And if he wasn't coming from Caemlyn, but instead had his news from Cairhien, then he is still travelling in the wrong direction to intercept this group. <br /><br />To add to this, the WoT Chronology has this meeting taking place around day 559 of the series, and the embassy doesn't arrive in Cairhien until day 600. If you take this into account, it should mean that Tesen was roughly 41 days travel from Cairhien as well, then. (That's considering he can walk as fast as the AS can ride and pull their wagons.) I think you can see the problems with this scenario. 41 days before this encounter, which would be day 518, Rand wasn't even in Cairhien yet. Rand arrived in Cairhien on day 537, and kills Rahvin on day 547. 12 days later is the meeting with Tesen. Why does it take the embassy 41 days to travel the same distance the peddler walked in 12, if he came from Cairhien?<br /><br />Tesen also makes a comment about how good the trading is with Aiel, as they have plenty of gold from Cairhien, and Gawyn wonders to himself why the peddler isn't heading south to trade with them. <br /><br />They are also in the middle of no-where, and Tesen claims to have the best prices for goods within 10 miles. Gawyn doubts that there is even so much as a farm for 10 miles in any direction. Why is a peddler so far from any town, much less a farm? <br /><br />There is also the distinct possibility that the meeting arranged with the Shaido didn't take place right next to a major road, but instead was off the beaten path. If you look at Gawyn's POV before the peddler appears, it seems to support this idea, as he is looking at the surrounding windswept grasslands as he moves from one position to the next to observe. This adds to the mystery of why a peddler would be walking around where he was, instead of travelling along a highway where towns would be to sell his wares.<br /><br />The point is, Mil Tesen holds much intrigue into his origin, and if you look closely at the byplay of Gawyn's thoughts, you will see that even he thinks the peddler is out of place. Peddlers are in business to make money after all, not to spread rumors miles from anywhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 21:11:02
subject: <b>Hats off to DomA</b>
body:
You actually sound as if you like Demandred more than I do!!<br /><br />I won't budge on Mil Tesen for the reasons stated by Light in the Night.<br />And like I said with Jaq Lounalt, just because Naean (and most likely the others) THINK he's tortured them into submission, doesn't mean he actually has.  If you can accept that Demandred can appear to Masema as a Messenger of the Light, and so on, why would it be a stretch to think he could convince all of these otherwise useless nobles to follow Arymilla &quot;or else.&quot;  And while I agree wasting his time on something like this seems beneath him, you have to consider some other points:<br /><br />It DOES add to the general chaos of Randland.  Think about it: not only is Andor bogged down in what is close to being a civil war (when it could be concentrating on supporting the DR and preparing for TG), Bashere's Saldaeans and the Aiel lead by Bael are also &quot;stuck&quot; there, as Rand's &quot;just in case&quot;.  However much he doesn't want to get involved in Andor's politics for Elayne's sake, you don't honestly think he didn't give Bashere an order of &quot;Save Elayne and Aviendha if everything goes to Hell!&quot;  On top of which, the Borderlander army is now heading &quot;towards&quot; Caemlyn.  WE know they aren't; Elayne and her crew know they aren't; the Borderlanders themselves know they aren't...But Demandred doesn't.  So, if anything, he's erring on the side of caution.<br /><br />And there is Elayne herself:  While we know Demandred could care less about her, he knows Rand does.  And how many times has it been pointed out by LTT that Demandred had wanted Ilyena?  I'm not saying he's going to want Elayne too (oh please, not THAT!), but he does see her as a possible thread tied to Rand that can be cut to hurt him.  A good lot of people may buy that Elayne turned her back on Rand (and his bloody banners!), but I doubt highly Demandred buys it.  (Especially not with Taim and his viewpoint on the situation.)<br /><br />Tumad was someone that was &quot;curious&quot; to say the least, since he is one &quot;tertiary&quot; character that entirely too much emphasis has been placed on.  (I did hit the point in CoT during my re-read where Bashere is thinking about &quot;grooming&quot; Tumad to rise in the ranks, at which point the idea of Tumad went out the window.  He's been there for a long while, with no &quot;unexplained, long disappearances&quot;.)<br /><br />You're right about the spelling of Amathera's name...I just thought it was a typo (Hey, there is one point in CoT where Elayne thinks of Galad and thinks &quot;he favored Nynaeve at one point...&quot; when we all know for a fact that he was mooning over Egwene!)  So, I didn't put a &quot;u&quot; misplacement out of the question!)<br /><br />For the interview about whether or not RJ said we've seen all the Chosen, I'm still looking for where I saw it, but I've got the sinking suspicion you're right about the fact that he pulled an &quot;Adealas/Ispan&quot; or an &quot;Asmodean&quot; in saying &quot;the &quot;clues&quot; are all there!&quot;<br /><br />But don't sell the importance of what is happening in Andor short.  If I was a general who suddenly had the possibility of a war on 4 fronts (Elayne's Andorans, Arymilla's Andorans, Bael/Bashere, and the Borderlanders), not to mention the fact that the BT IS just around the corner, I would be paying very close, careful attention to the area.  We may know that it would be a war on only 2 fronts, but other than Elayne and the Borderlanders, we're the only ones who do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-13 12:28:06
subject: <b>Demandred may be Jaq</b>
body:
He definitely could not be any one else that we have met before CoT as RJ has said at previous signings we have not seen his alter ego but if that changed as of KoD and Jaq is the only new character....


created: 2005-08-11 06:43:32
subject: <b>Still have to disagree.</b>
body:
This theory was often discussed, but the evidence against it is too strong.<br /><br />First of all, RJ's answer was rather an academical statement, not a plot related way to make it possible that Be'lal was reborn as Taim, since this information is never stated in the books (rather the contrary).<br /><br />The DO doesn't mention Be'lal anymore because too much time has passed.<br />He also doesn't explicitly mention Ishy, Aginor or Balthamel (though he says that, in general, his Chosen dwindle).<br />On the other hand, Rahvin and Asmo just died, thus he mentions them.<br /><br />I often pointed it out.<br />Certainly Moridin would know if Taim were a Forsaken.<br />But then his comment about the 9 sha'rah players in PoD, prologue, doesn't make much sense.<br /><br />Also Kisman's PoV in WH, ch.22, indicates that Taim behaves differently from Chosen like Demandred and Moridin, e.g.:<br />&quot;Those two [Demandred and Moridin] were the only Chosen Kisman had met, but they made his head hurt.&quot;<br /><br />My belief is that Taim was trained by Ishy and should be used as a false Dragon Reborn, after Rand would be captured.<br />Of course this plan failed.<br /><br />Taim is too powerful to bow to any Forsaken, except his teacher (therefore I disagree with those who think he is Demandred's proxy).<br />Since Ishy died, Shaidar Haran (or the DO) ordered Taim to go to Rand and gain his trust in my view, like he ordered e.g. the *gars for secret missions.<br />It's likely that later Moridin contacted Taim again.


created: 2005-08-11 09:03:19
subject: <b>I would like it to be true, but would not bet on it...</b>
body:
My gut feel says no, but my heart says yes please...<br /><br />As for the previous comment:<br /><br />In no way is Taim too powerful to be Demandred's proxy.<br /><br />In all probability, Demandred is a more accomplished channeler than Ishamael, with Ishamael simply having a fraction more power (if the Guide can be trusted, which it can't).<br /><br />Demandred was the second greatest Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends. Taim is a primitive Third Age barbarian. Any contest between the two of them would be...well... no contest.<br /><br />I do happen to believe that Taim is Moridin's proxy, but certainly not because of the ludicrous reason that &quot;Taim is too strong to take orders from Demandred.&quot;<br /><br />Demandred would reverse weave, multiple balefire Taim's ass before he could blink, and block his gateway if he tried to escape.<br /><br />No, I think Taim works for Moridin simply because that is the only plausible reason why Demandred would keep his orders to Kisman and co secret from Taim.<br /><br />He does not want Taim spilling the beans to the Dark One's blue eyed boy.<br /><br />As for Be'lal being Taim, it is possible, but I think the odds are against it.


created: 2005-08-11 10:08:14
subject: <b>You missed the point, shannow.</b>
body:
It might be possible that Demandred could kill Taim in a OP battle.<br /><br />However, Taim is almost as powerful as Rand, apparently well trained by a Forsaken and very proud; plus he has maybe a quite strong angreal.<br /><br />You can't compare him to a channeler like e.g. Alviarin, who Mesaana has under her thumb with little problems, but rather to a channeler like Rand or maybe Logain.<br /><br />Since Demandred certainly also couldn't use a channeler like Asmodean or Osan'gar as his proxy (even if he might defeat them quite easily in a battle), I seriously doubt that Demandred could keep Taim under strict control (especially not now, where Taim has lots of Asha'man who obey him as his own power base).<br /><br />This is supported by Demandred's concern that Taim will learn of his order, while Moridin doesn't express such concern.<br /><br />Therefore Taim most likely obeys the Nae'blis Moridin, especially if Ishy was his teacher in the past, and of course SH or the Dark One, but hardly Demandred or another Forsaken.


created: 2005-08-11 14:27:40
subject: <b>Oh dear...</b>
body:
I say no, despite my les rational half wanting to scream &quot;YES!&quot; Taim is just a dreadlord, and nothing more. It would be too obvious, if Taim seriously was one of the Forsaken. There's just too much evidence against.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 14:50:05
subject: <b>Etzel and shannow</b>
body:
<b>First of all, RJ's answer was rather an academical statement, not a plot related way to make it possible that Be'lal was reborn as Taim, since this information is never stated in the books (rather the contrary).</b><br /><br />We obviously disagree here, because the DO doesn't say, &quot;I cannot save anyone from balefire.&quot;  Rather, the DO makes an explicit statement regarding Rahvin.  In my view, RJ's answer isn't academic at all, it's merely a clarification of the information that is presented in LoC.  That is, the DO couldn't save Rahvin from balefire because it was too large and burned his thread out of the pattern too far back in time.  This doesn't necessarily mean that the DO can't save others from balefire under different circumstances.<br /><br /><b>The DO doesn't mention Be'lal anymore because too much time has passed.<br />He also doesn't explicitly mention Ishy, Aginor or Balthamel (though he says that, in general, his Chosen dwindle).<br />On the other hand, Rahvin and Asmo just died, thus he mentions them.</b><br /><br />That's part of the whole point, though.  Be'lal isn't specifically mentioned, much like Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael (and Lanfear).  These are all Forsaken that the DO is going to reincarnate and continue to use, so I think it is entirely likely that Be'lal falls into this category, too.<br /><br /><b>I often pointed it out.<br />Certainly Moridin would know if Taim were a Forsaken.<br />But then his comment about the 9 sha'rah players in PoD, prologue, doesn't make much sense.</b><br /><br />And as I've countered in the past, it is entirely possible that not all of the Forsaken know sha'rah.  And as LitN pointed out, it's entirely possible that the DO has hidden Taim's true identity from Moridin.  You seem to be assuming that all the Forsaken have an equal amount of knowledge about everything, and that the DO is going to reveal every detail to Moridin.  I don't think either assumption is particularly valid.<br /><br /><b>Also Kisman's PoV in WH, ch.22, indicates that Taim behaves differently from Chosen like Demandred and Moridin, e.g.:<br />&quot;Those two [Demandred and Moridin] were the only Chosen Kisman had met, but they made his head hurt.&quot;</b><br /><br />If Taim is trying keep an alter-ego secret, and much more importantly if RJ is trying to keep it secret, it doesn't make much sense for him to reveal it to Kisman.  Especially if he doesn't have to, and it is apparent that Kisman will do what Taim orders whether or not he believes that Taim is actually one of the Forsaken.<br /><br />I don't personally believe that Taim is taking orders from anyone.  All of his actions have a certain sense of independence from them.  If Taim was working for Moridin, for example, why doesn't he give a carbon copy of Moridin's orders to the renegade Asha'man in WH?  Taim doesn't seem concerned with gaining the items in Rand's possession, but seems primarily concerned with the Asha'man remaining undiscovered.  How does Taim learning or working for Ishamael/Moridin explain this discrepency?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 17:13:24
subject: <b>Impossible, actually</b>
body:
Moridin proves that it is impossible that Be'lal is alive or reincarnated...<br /><br />TPoD (Deceptive Appearances) - <i>A complex game, Sha'rah, ancient long before the War of Power... Only nine people living even remembered the game. He had been a master of it.&quot; </i><br /><br />This proves that there are only nine living Forsaken ... Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal, Demandred, Mesaana, Osan'gar, Aran'gar and Semirhage.<br /><br />It proves that no one else has been reincarnated including Asmodean - and one cannot say that he left Be'lal out for some reason, because he included Osan'gar , Aran'gar and Cyndane in his statement. If there was a tenth person who knew the game, he would have said so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 17:25:20
subject: <b>to add to sidious' comments</b>
body:
There's no way we wouldn't have seen Be'lal at some point since tDR if he were still alive.  We haven't seen anything, no POVs from him, he's not at any of the Forsaken meetings, or the cleansing.<br /><br />There's also the problem with Be'lal taking over Taim's persona.  Taim shows up in Caemlyn about the same time the *'gars are brought back to life.  Since Be'lal was killed almost a year later it seems unlikely that the DO would have been able to bring him back in a shorter amount of time.  Since then there has been no time for someone to take Taim and learn everything about him, so Be'lal could properly pose as him.<br /><br />There's just no way Be'lal could be Taim, and it's highly unlikely that Be'lal has been reincarnated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 17:32:40
subject: <b>To add to Jim's comment</b>
body:
I also think it's illogical to pose as Taim.<br /><br />We saw that &quot;Taim&quot; knows too much details. If it's not the actual Taim then he was in the hands of the Shadow for some time to get all these details. But then, why in hell Forsaken should pose as Taim if he is already in their hands and all you have to do is convert him to achieve the same goal? Plus there was a Forsaken among Asha'man. And we know Demandred has some control over events in BT. So, it sounds like overkill to have the third Forsaken there.


created: 2005-08-11 17:56:53
subject: <b>The wheel weaves...</b>
body:
Either could be possible. There is good evidence for both sides, but i just dont know.<br /><br />P.S. Diomedes, I believe you have your ages mixed up a bit. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 18:06:05
subject: <b>I like your theory.</b>
body:
There's something inherently wrong about Be'lal. I mean, there are only 13 Forsaken, and yet RJ seems to have completely forgotten about Be'lal. He isn't even used to point out that Balefire limits his powers. That's just wrong.<br /><br />So I say yes, even though I'm not completely certain, for hope keeps us alive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 22:06:08
subject: <b>1 big problem</b>
body:
The problem i have with Be'lal being Taim is simple. Taim hates using swords and Be'lal was one of the greatest swordsmans of the AOL.


created: 2005-08-12 05:26:53
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
<b> We obviously disagree here, because the DO doesn't say, &quot;I cannot save anyone from balefire.&quot; Rather, the DO makes an explicit statement regarding Rahvin. In my view, RJ's answer isn't academic at all, it's merely a clarification of the information that is presented in LoC. That is, the DO couldn't save Rahvin from balefire because it was too large and burned his thread out of the pattern too far back in time. This doesn't necessarily mean that the DO can't save others from balefire under different circumstances. </b><br /><br />Yes, we simply disagree. <br /><br />It might be possible that the DO reincarnates someone who was balefired, but I doubt that RJ refered to a specific event in the books with his statement.<br />In my view he simply wanted to clarify the matter, but did not intent to prepare the revelation that Taim is Be'lal Reborn with this answer.<br /><br /><b> That's part of the whole point, though. Be'lal isn't specifically mentioned, much like Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael (and Lanfear). These are all Forsaken that the DO is going to reincarnate and continue to use, so I think it is entirely likely that Be'lal falls into this category, too. </b><br /><br />The point is that Demandred knows already that all these Chosen died, because it happened months ago.<br />It would be quite strange if it still bothers the DO so much that he mentions it in this conversation.<br /><br />On the other hand, Rahvin's and Asmo's death just occured one day ago; therefore he tells Demandred about it. <br /><br /><b> And as I've countered in the past, it is entirely possible that not all of the Forsaken know sha'rah. And as LitN pointed out, it's entirely possible that the DO has hidden Taim's true identity from Moridin. You seem to be assuming that all the Forsaken have an equal amount of knowledge about everything, and that the DO is going to reveal every detail to Moridin. I don't think either assumption is particularly valid. </b><br /><br />It doesn't make much sense that Moridin knows who of the Forsaken doesn't know sha'rah. <br />How can you learn that someone doesn't know a certain game?<br />Therefore Moridin at least assumes that everyone from the AoL knows sha'rah of course.<br /><br />The significance of this sentence is that it tells us the number of Forsaken who are still around, and that Moridin knows of them (besides that it shows that Moridin is from the AoL).<br /><br />I also disagree that the DO wouldn't reveal that Be'lal is Taim to Moridin, if he also revealed the identities of the other reincarnated Forsaken.<br />If the DO trusts anyone, he trusts his Nae'blis Moridin, since they have the same goal.<br /><br /><b> If Taim is trying keep an alter-ego secret, and much more importantly if RJ is trying to keep it secret, it doesn't make much sense for him to reveal it to Kisman. Especially if he doesn't have to, and it is apparent that Kisman will do what Taim orders whether or not he believes that Taim is actually one of the Forsaken. </b><br /><br />He mustn't reveal his true identity, but I don't see why Taim wouldn't at least act like one of the Chosen, since he still is one. <br /><br />Furthermore, RJ said that the only Chosen who wasn't at the Cleansing, besides Moridin, was Mesaana.<br />Since Be'lal is a Chosen, even if he was reincarnated, that speaks against the theory.<br /><br /><b> I don't personally believe that Taim is taking orders from anyone. All of his actions have a certain sense of independence from them. If Taim was working for Moridin, for example, why doesn't he give a carbon copy of Moridin's orders to the renegade Asha'man in WH? Taim doesn't seem concerned with gaining the items in Rand's possession, but seems primarily concerned with the Asha'man remaining undiscovered. How does Taim learning or working for Ishamael/Moridin explain this discrepency? </b><br /><br />I generally agree that Taim isn't a proxy of a Forsaken and just follows the DO's orders. <br />Taim acts indeed quite independent, though I believe he would probably obey his former teacher Moridin (if this theory is correct).<br /><br />Finally, one comment to your last point in the theory on the supposed  theme.<br /><br />We see that Rand has new enemies besides the 13 Forsaken, namely Fain and Shaidar Haran.<br />Therefore I don't see why Taim couldn't be a new enemy, too.<br /><br />Also Forsaken like Rahvin, Asmo and Sammael aren't around anymore, which already disproves your idea &quot;that these thirteen crucial enemies will maintain their prominence until the very end of the story.&quot;  <br />Why must Be'lal be around then?<br /><br />That RJ didn't reveal so much about Be'lal rather shows that he didn't flesh him out as much as other Forsaken, because he knew that Be'lal wouldn't play an important role anyway.


created: 2005-08-12 06:19:15
subject: <b>Forsaken arent the most Powerful</b>
body:
The Guide certainly suggest they werent the most powerful channies let alone most powerful shadowchannnies in the AoL.<br />In addition check out the fallout from the Cleansing battle. Cyndane/Lanfear (dont arge with me - you know they are the same <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )is shocked at that Seanchan ex-damane's strenght. Even someone that arrogant fears she could be more powerful than herself at full power (a way of solving the need for Nynaeve to increase her strength quickly - have someone of the sam epotential who's been alive  ages already).<br />So if the modern age can have female channies stronger than a Forsaken, there's no reason you can't have modern males more powerful as well. Especially as men can't be estimated in potential.<br />Taim is just a modern Dreadlord. A bit like the BA, he probably served Ishy for ages before trying to become the Dragon - which was probably a scheme to increase hatred for the DR in the period immediately preceding his revelation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-12 08:33:10
subject: <b>To mjasghar</b>
body:
You are totally wrong here. The Guide more than hints that the Forsaken were the most powerful even in their own time. We also have comments from Graendal and Rand suggesting that most of the Forsaken are up at the top of the strength tree.<br /><br />Cyndane was shocked at Alivia's strength because Alivia had an angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-12 11:24:10
subject: <b>my question to you...</b>
body:
Diomedes, do you truly believe this? Or do you feel that this theory deserves discussion and with your 'history' of controversial theories you figured this would further 'stir the pot'? <br /><br /><br />Anyway, as others have said - the evidence is against and it does not make sense in terms of the way the story has unfolded or with RJ's writing style. Anyway, this is a very unlikely theory at best.<br /><br />Having said all that - RJ has said in regard to the WOT FAQ that it is 1/3 correct, 1/3 somewhat correct, and 1/3 completely wrong. Wildcat theories like this could be the difference <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-12 15:45:32
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Diomedes, how you can realistically use that for a defence ... that perhaps Be'lal never knew about Sha'rah? Do you think Jordan deliberately left Be'lal out from Moridin's list because he knew that Be'lal was ignorant of the game? Or that Moridin knew that Be'lal had no knowledge of the game.<br /><br />It's like saying that thirteen well educated people from this Age have never heard of Chess. It's preposterous. Moridin said they all <i>heard of</i> the game - even if they couldn't play it. None of the Forsaken were uneducated so I don't buy that argument at all.<br /><br />It's also rediculous to think that the guy never attending one Forsaken meeting since his rebirth, or that he never attended the Cleansing - despite the fact that Dashiva and Mesaana both were required to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-12 15:59:18
subject: <b>Since my name is being tossed around....</b>
body:
I might as well chime in, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />First, let's go to the WOTFAQ for a quote about the <i>nine</i> Sha'rah players:<br /><br />In [TPOD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearances, 42-43], Moridin is playing his favorite AOL strategy game (against himself): <br /><br /><br />&quot;A complex game, sha'rah, ancient long before the War of Power. Sha'rah, tcheran, and no'ri ... each had adherents ... but Moridin had always favored sha'rah. Only nine people living even remembered the game. He had been a master of it.&quot; <br />This section, in particular the &quot;nine people living&quot; bit, could be very important, or it could mean nothing. People have interpreted that bit in two ways: 1) &quot;Only nine people living even remembered the game [existed].&quot; 2) &quot;Only nine people living even remembered [how to play] the game.&quot; The former interpretation means that we can, conceivably, count off which of the Forsaken are alive, to Moridin's knowledge. The latter interpretation does not give us so much knowledge, although it still tells us a little. So, who could these &quot;nine&quot; be? <br /><br />Since the game is unknown in the Third Age, the nine must be from the AOL. The only people around from the AOL are the Forsaken. The ones who are around who we know that Moridin knows about are: Moridin, Moghedien, Mesaana, Graendal, Semirhage, and Demandred. That's six. Add Lanfear, who is Cyndane (see section 1.2.4) and the occupant of Moridin's second mindtrap. That's seven. The Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH indicates that Moridin has known about Aran'gar and Osan'gar for a good long time - certainly since TPOD. That leaves only Sammael in doubt. (Rahvin, Be'lal, and Asmodean are permanently dead, so they are not in the counting.) Including all of the viable possibilities, the total reaches ten, which is one more than the nine enumerated by Moridin. If we cannot eliminate Sammael, then we must conclude that Moridin was referring to nine people who could play the game, and that one of the Forsaken simply wasn't into board games. <br /><br />Sammael died at the end of ACOS. This makes him a good candidate for not being counted among the nine, or does it? Note that Moridin's second scene in TPOD is in [TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 81-84], where he watches Elayne and Nynaeve's party depart the Tarasin Palace via gateway. This scene occurs the same day that they use the Bowl of Winds. From [TPOD: 7, A Goatpen, 160], Perrin thinks that &quot;more than half a week&quot; (over five days in Randland) has passed since &quot;a lace of OP streaking high across the sky had created quite a stir among the AS and WOs. And with Grady and Neald.... Neald said it made him think of wind.&quot; This description matches with that of the Bowl's action. The next day, Perrin meets Queen Alliandre, and she mentions that &quot;four days ago Illian fell to the Dragon Reborn.&quot; [TPOD: 10, Changes, 22<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> This matches with the timing as figured from data in ACOS: The using/finding of the Bowl occurs the day after the Festival of Birds, when Nynaeve meets and marries Lan. The Festival of Birds is six nights before the half-moon [ACOS, 29, The Festival of Birds, 454]. Rand's attack on Sammael takes place two days after his injury at the hands of Fain [ACOS: 41, A Crown of Swords, 617], and the injury took place on the day Min assures Rand that their &quot;comforting&quot; was mutually voluntary. This is four days before the half-moon. Thus, we can conclude that the Moridin scene in Chapter 2 to TPOD takes place two days before Sammael dies in Shadar Logoth. <br /><br />There is no indication that Moridin's timeline flows backwards in TPOD between the scene in the Prologue and the scene in Chapter 2. The reasonable conclusion is that the Chapter 2 scene occurs after the Prologue scene, and thus, both occur before the fight between Rand and Sammael. This implies that Sammael was definitely alive when Moridin pondered about the nine players. <br /><br />So, if Moridin meant &quot;only nine people living even remembered the game existed,&quot; then we can only conclude that RJ did some extremely poor writing, and the scene with Moridin in the Prologue of TPOD occurs after the scene with Moridin in Chapter 2 of TPOD, even though there is absolutely no indication that this is the case. <br /><br />One other option is that Moridin is not including himself in the nine people who remember the game, but if that were the case, it would have made more sense to say &quot;Only nine other people even remembered the game.&quot; <br /><br />On the other hand, if Moridin meant &quot;Only nine people living even remembered how to play the game,&quot; then the sentence doesn't mean much.<br /><br />I agree with the WOTFAQ that there is no reason to conclude that Moridin's timeline would have flowed backwards. It just wouldn't make sense to do so. So did RJ just blow it? Or does Moridin not know everything? <br /><br />The DO could certainly keep an &quot;ace&quot; up his sleeve, IMHO. An unknown player from the AoL that can do what the DO wants at his discretion, without Moridin knowing who he is in reality, as a &quot;failsafe&quot; measure.<br /><br />Did RJ plan it this way from the beginning with Be'lel, or did he perhaps decide he was killing off too many Forsaken and figured he needed to bring some of them back later as a surprise? Who knows other than the writer himself? The point is that he did decide to start resurrecting some of his weapons because their numbers were dwindling badly. <br /><br />Most dismiss the idea out-of-hand because Taim existed earlier in the series, however, we never got a chance to see him until LoC. And when we do, Bashere, who <i>has</i> seen him before, doesn't recognize him. This certainly adds to the mystery of the character Taim. <br /><br />Another little addendum to this is that a lot of people like to associate Taim as Slayer's patron in WH. The question arises of just how Taim would know who Slayer is. Would one of the Forsaken give away the identity of the Shadow's assasin to the likes of Taim? Assasin's rely on stealth and hidden identities. It would seem unwise to divulge this type of information to the likes of Taim, IMO. And, if Taim was the patron, not only does he know who Slayer is, he also knows how to contact him as well. <br /><br />I guess one thing that needs to be addressed is why RJ would even make mention of being able to resurrect someone from small amounts of balefire in the first place. It could just be a red-herring meant to mislead us into lending credence for a theory like this. <i>Or</i> it could be the clue he gave us to figure out the mystery of Taim. Too many slips of the tongue have came from his conversations to be easily explained away. <br /><br />At any rate, I see it as at least a possibility, mostly because I try to keep an open mind about such off-the-wall ideas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-13 00:38:36
subject: <b>Oy gevalt!</b>
body:
This theory has been bandied about since LoC, and it still doesn't feel right to me.  It would feel too much to me like cheating on Jordan's part if he went to such great trouble to convince us that certain characters were really, truly toast and then did a 180 and said &quot;Surprise!  Turns out Moiraine didn't give him enough juice!&quot;<br />Additionally, what would be the point of sticking any Forsaken in Taim's body?  Wasn't Taim useful enough as Taim?  Assuming Taim wasn't already a darkfriend, why not do the 13/13 trick on him, or mindtrap him, or use Compulsion on him, or entice him with Taint protection, and then put Be'lal in a different body so that he could be of use elsewhere?  Why stick one powerful channeler's soul into the other's body when you could use both of them at once?


created: 2005-08-13 00:44:58
subject: <b>Bring back Belal</b>
body:
I love this theory (although I'm not sure I believe it) simply because I have hoped and prayed that we would get to see some more of Bel'al.  His early and relatively unremarkable death is my biggest complaint about the series.  How could RJ kill off such a mysterious and apparently formidable character with such little fanfare?  Even his death is overshadowed by Rand's battle with Ishmael. (weak, weak, weak)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-13 11:18:37
subject: <b>That stupid balefire remark.</b>
body:
My attitude is that anything that's mentioned in an interview/QotW/etc. but not in the books has to be regarded as an academic remark and NOT set-up for a plot twist.  I mean, for those of us who happened to read that particular interview/QotW/etc., the return of a balefired character would only make us nod to ourselves and think &quot;well, he said it was possible&quot;; but if you were one of the thousands of readers who don't assiduously comb through interview material, you would probably be thinking &quot;What the @#$%!?  I thought balefire was irreversable!  That %&amp;$# Jordan cheated!&quot;  And you would be completely right to feel that way.


created: 2005-08-13 14:21:25
subject: <b>LTT</b>
body:
LTT should be one of those 9 persons. After all both DO and Moridin's previous incarnation practically always call Rand as Dragon.


created: 2005-08-14 00:31:19
subject: <b>Yeah, but...</b>
body:
Moridin knows Rand doesn't remember anything from the AoL, so he couldn't be included in the &quot;nine living who remember the game.&quot;


created: 2005-08-14 13:16:20
subject:
<b>Well, thanks for all the replies people <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Sorry I haven't responded is so long, but a couple days ago I had a great reply all written out, hit the submit button, and apparently had forgotten to give my reply a title.  Trying to hit the back button to salvage 90 minutes or so worth of work proved futile, so I had to go to work without having addressed any of the great points that so many people brought up.  Anyway, I've got some time to try again, so here goes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />First of all, thank you LitN for providing such a good analysis of Moridin's comment in  PoD's prologue.  You really did an awesome job emphasizing the ambiguity of the remark, and I think the comment happens in a very ambiguous context.  Consider the title of the prologue: <i>Deceptive Appearances</i>.  The reality is that, while Moridin <i>appears</i> to be the ultimate gamesmaster in this scene, it is apparent almost immediately that this view is somewhat superficial.  After all, in only the second chapter of PoD the girls are able to sneak the BotW out of Ebou Dar from right under his nose, and they manage to take just the right channelers with them to make sure it can be used to break the DO's grip on the weather.  Definitely not part of Moridin's overall gameplan.<br /><br />Also, I think even in the prologue it's apparent that Moridin is at the mercy of powers beyond him.  His wild mood swings towards the end of the chapter indicate to me that Moridin is actually a pawn in a much larger game between much larger players.  To use comments out of this prologue as some type of concrete evidence about larger issues simply seems misguided to me.  Moridin is clearly not omniscient, and there are several different ways that the number nine could be flawed as an exact count of remaining Forsaken.  Let's face it; RJ loves this type of ambiguity, and enjoys misleading readers into assuming such comments reveal far more than they actually do.<br /><br />Of course, I'm sure that some of you are going to stick to your guns.  That is, if Sammael was already dead at the time of the prologue, Moridin's count must have included himself, and if Sammael was still alive, then it must not have included himself.  One way or the other, for some of you I'm sure, the comment must absolutely indicate that three of the Forsaken are dead and gone forever, it's just a matter of adjusting our interpretation of the comment to support this absolute fact.  Myself, I've always found that starting with a conclusion then interpreting observations to fit the conclusion is incredibly bad thinking.<br /><br />Jim brought up an interesting point about the timing between Be'lal's death and Taim's arrival, but examining all the reincarnations, not just the two 'Gars, doesn't support his conclusion.  Let's go through the dates, using Steve Coopers timeline.  On May 9, 998, Aginor and Balthamel are killed and somewhere around the end of September, beginning of October 999, the 'Gars are introduced: this is about 15 months.  On May 19, 999, Ishamael is killed, and the first sign of Moridin is on January 4, 1000: this is about 7 and a half months.  On September 21, 999 Lanfear falls through the ter'angreal doorway, and Moridin is already carrying Cyndane's mindtrap on January 5, 1000: this is little more than 3 months.  So there is absolutely no consistency in the amount of time between a Forsakens' death, and the introduction of their alter-ego.  Be'lal was killed on May 19, 999, and Taim was introduced October 28, 999: a difference of a little more than 5 months.  I see no reason why this timing should be any kind of proof against the possibility that Taim is Be'lal.  It falls well within the boundaries of the other reincarnations.<br /><br />Jim also raised the point of learning enough about Taim for Be'lal to pass himself off as the man.  I think he is mistaken again, because Semirhage tortures Cabriana somewhere around October 31 (very appropriate, I think, if that scene occurred on Halloween) and Halima turns up in Salidar on November 18.  So it only took a couple of weeks for Aran'gar to learn enough about Cabriana from Semirhage to pass herself off as the Blue sister's secretary.  On June 8, Siuan learns of Taim's jailbreak, and Taim turns up in Caemlyn on Oct 28.  That's almost 5 months, clearly plenty of time for information to pumped out of Taim for Be'lal's future use.<br /><br />Well, I'd like to write some more, but I have to run of to work (again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> ).  I'll try to get some more down a little later, because I want to reply to some of the other comments.  Thanks again, all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-14 16:25:34
subject: <b>On Halima and Cabriana</b>
body:
Pretending to know someone is much, much, much easier than pretending to BE someone.  Halima didn't have to learn how Cabriana moved or spoke, what expressions she used, what she liked to eat for breakfast, what made her laugh, how she laced her riding boots, or any of the ten million mundane details that make up someone's persona.  All Halima needed was enough general background on Cabriana (plus one or two little secrets, perhaps) to prove that she'd worked for her.<br />As a counter to your example, consider Alviarin's thoughts on Mesaana's disguise in the WT.  Alviarin, who is no stranger to deception (or torturing people for information), is certain that if Mesaana is posing as an AS, it must be an AS who has no friends, or who had been out of the Tower for decades.  She feels that it would be impossible to duplicate someone's mannerisms to the point of being able to fool someone who actually knew them.  There are just too many variables, too many things to focus on.  That's why Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal, and the 'gars created new personae for themselves rather than try to recreate someone who already existed.


created: 2005-08-14 19:46:02
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Youker</b>
body:
You have raised several points that I'd like to talk about.  First, I must emphasize that I do not believe  RJ's comments outside the books are some type of critical criteria for this idea to be true.  Without RJ's answer in the QotW, the DO's comments in LoC are still ambiguous enough to support multiple interpretations at this point.  <br /><br />As for why ressurect Be'lal to replace Taim, I think it is a simple decision for the DO.  Be'lal helped take the DO to the brink of victory before, and the DO's had millennia to bond with Be'lal and the other Forsaken in the Bore.  Be'lal also has that AoL training and knowledge.  Whatever Taim managed to accomplish, I don't think he can compete with that resume.<br /><br />You final comment about the differences in pretending to know someone and to be someone is true, to a point.  But the reality with Taim is nobody from his past is around him.  The only exception is Davram Bashere, and he's the one person that questioned his identity.  I'm sure you've noticed that Bashere and Taim have never encountered one another again after that first meeting.  <br /><br />And I'm sure you don't really want to get me started on Mesaana, but let it suffice to say that I don't think Alviarin's expertise on subterfuge is entirely straightforward either.<br /><br />kcf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I certainly enjoy stirring the pot, but I would never do so just for the sake of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  To be honest, I wouldn't give this prediction great odds.  Call it 5:3.  I'd probably go 2:1 on Lan and 3:1 on Mesaana and Berelain.  Frankly, I think RJ leaves all these ambiguouties in the story very much on purpose.  Why not simply have the DO mention Be'lal in LoC?  It wouldn't seem out of place at all in that context.<br /><br />Etzel, you probably already guessed, but I don't think the battle at the Cleansing is all that straightforward, either.  If Semirhage was there, but not mentioned, could someone else also have been there?  If Mesaana managed to avoid it, could someone else also have done the same?  If Moridin wasn't required to be there, is it possible that somebody else was allowed to miss it?  The truth is that there are a lot of unresolved questions about the end of WH, and basing such firm conclusions on it is, IMO, a mistake.<br /><br />Finally, let me say that in no way do I believe sha'rah is some kind of AoL equivalent of modern chess.  Chess is a game that even the vast majority laymen from any number cultures around the world would recognize.   I would say that sha'rah is the obscure version of a more popular game, and could easily fall outside the purview of one or more of the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-15 23:53:49
subject: <b>*Pokes head in amid all the in-depth discussion*</b>
body:
Just wanted to say nice work.  It'd be cool if it were true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Sedai to Phelix and Phil Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Jens ist mein Warder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />CW<br /><br />&#223;!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 09:09:15
subject: <b>Be'lal and Taim</b>
body:
After Taim was rescued, he might have been brought to Shayol Ghul, and there Be'lals soul might have been put into Taim's body by the DO.<br />And perhaps Taim's body wasn't cleansed and now has two souls? Taims and Be'lals?<br />Just some thoughts.


created: 2005-08-16 20:28:27
subject: <b>Disagree but good theory</b>
body:
I had never thought about Belal surviving.<br /><br />I don't think he's Taim, but might be an off chance he's lurking somewhere out there.  Sort of a secret weapon.


created: 2005-08-30 07:08:35
subject: <b>&lt;laughs&gt; I mis-read the title...</b>
body:
At first i thought it said &quot;Bela Incognito&quot; so I was a bit surprised to start reading a thread about the forsaken.


created: 2005-09-04 15:09:26
subject: <b>Finally a real theory that I can believe about Taims Identity</b>
body:
I think that this is a well thought out Theory. Everything that you wrote makes sense. Even about the power swords.<br />And it seems plausible that the DO would hold a Spade incase Moridin Fails again ( like he has done in the past! )<br />He is the DO after all and has to have some trick up his sleeve. <br /><br />This all makes sense to me and eerything clicks into place. <br />Bel'al being one of LT's Best friends and becoming so envious of he that he switches sides fits perfectly with Taim. To the T.<br /><br />I also have thought many times that it could have been Taim that Killed Asmo, and this would contribute to that Theory!<br /><br />Like I said it would all fit to my way of thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-05 03:58:32
subject: <b>Wow. Very happy and very angry all at once.</b>
body:
My anger, first. I demand a helped-the-author credit for myself and Belals Girl.<br /><br />But I'm very happy. You phrased this as well as I ever could; in fact, you wrote it better. This answers about every question that could be answered and has left everyone repeating stale arguments about why it couldn't happen. The exception to this, of course, is Jim.<br /><br />I fear Jim.


created: 2005-09-06 01:51:19
subject: <b>Shedding one point of Light</b>
body:
Light in the Night posted:<br />&quot;This section, in particular the &quot;nine people living&quot; bit, could be very important, or it could mean nothing. People have interpreted that bit in two ways: 1) &quot;Only nine people living even remembered the game [existed].&quot; 2) &quot;Only nine people living even remembered [how to play] the game.&quot; The former interpretation means that we can, conceivably, count off which of the Forsaken are alive, to Moridin's knowledge. The latter interpretation does not give us so much knowledge, although it still tells us a little. So, who could these &quot;nine&quot; be?&quot;<br /><br />In LoC Semirhage specifically makes a note to herself regarding her lack of knowledge regarding the game while she is torturing the Aes Sedai &amp; Warder for info.  That would take her off of the list of those who remember how to play.  As a master player, Moridin would surely know that one of his fellow forsaken doesn't play.  But, he would also know that she is aware that the game exists.<br /><br />That said, I think this whole theory is bullocks.  Be'lal was supposed to be a master &quot;netweaver&quot;, and yet , Logain sees through Taim's machinations enough to go to Rand. And Taim authorizes his &quot;recruiting&quot; trip!


created: 2006-04-17 22:56:57
subject: <b>By Jobe I've Got It</b>
body:
Of course it seems strange that Taim disappeared for quite some time and then all of a sudden appeared on rand's doorstep. Weknow that Taim escaped during his precession from Saldea to Tar Valon. When he escaped he could'nt go toward Tar Valon or back to Saldea or into eigther of the border lands countries but perhaps went south toward the evil city of Shadar Logoth where he also recieved a gift from Mordeth around the same time as Mat stole the dagger and Mordeth partly possessed Padan Fain. There he was tainted and travelled aimlesslyeating twigs and berrys and steeling farmers left socks, cos that what he was. Evil. What could be more evil than steeling a mans left sock. He would have lived in trees and wiped his bum on the grass. He would wash only when it rained. All this leads to his real identity, the Evil Monkey.


created: 2007-08-02 19:28:55
subject: <b>New Evidence in KoD</b>
body:
At the very end of KoD there are two different points that also point towards Taim being Be'lal.<br /><br />The first is the color choice of the Black Tower.  In KoD epilogue<br />&quot;The palace the Murandian had spoken of was just that, two stories of white marble topped with pointed domes and spires in the style of Saldaea, separated...Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors.  Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded...<br />The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for tapestries showing battles and red-and-black floor tiles, except there were no servants in evidence.&quot;<br /><br />The two interesting points in this pair of paragraphs are the choice of the sigil on the stairs, and the choice of red  and black colors.  In tDR chapter &quot;Bait for the Net&quot;, it's revealed that High Lord Samon (Be'lal)'s sigil is a &quot;silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts.&quot;  In the same book, chapter &quot;What is Written in Prophecy&quot; it's shown several times that the color choices of Be'lal are red and black.  It makes mention of this in passing, but it is mentioned.  And there is also the possibly unrelated color scheme of Rand's red sword and Be'lal's black sword.  Rand has been using a red one, and Be'lal as a Forsaken would be justified in using a black one, but the color scheme is still there when he's around.<br /><br />Now the sigil is undeniably a possible tell.  It doesn't definitively prove that he is Be'lal, it COULD be just coincidence.  The color scheme is a bit harder to swallow.<br /><br />Several of the Forsaken seem to have a color scheme associated with them that RJ likes to stress and make sure we understand that it is there.  Lanfear is white, and in all her forms it's there.  Semirhage is black in all times, Moridin, black as well.  Sammael is golden. Red and black was made mention with Be'lal around, when Tear's colors are red and orange I believe.<br /><br />Neither of these clues are definite proof that Taim is in fact Be'lal.  May not even be great proof.  But that coupled with the other points listed here has more or less convinced me that Taim is Be'lal.


created: 2007-08-17 15:02:03
subject: <b>Definitly Agree!!!</b>
body:
I agree with everything in this theory...there are many hints through out the books that point to this...the fact that Aginor and Balthamel were reincarnated from bodies taken from the borderlands helps to support this...Taim disappeared in the middle of the night at a town near the Black Hills which are very close to the Borderlands. One of the renegade Ashaman makes a comment about recieving the same orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin. And he also doesn't believe that Moridin doesn't know about Taim's order...but the DO is always encouraging the Forsaken to strive against each other, but he also doesn't trust them. He creates Shaidar Haran to watch the other Forsaken, but Shaidar Haran is also untrustworthy...so why not have another person in the field that the others don't really know about..or at the most underestimate. Also...in KoD, Graendal makes the comment that finding Tavaern was never as easy as Moridin made out...which would mean that some of the Forsaken know how to do this....and after Rand was captured by the Aes Sedai...Taim miraculously shows up to rescue Rand in the middle of no where. There is a ton of evidence strown through out the books to support this theory!!


created: 2005-08-13 22:14:26
subject: <b>Time</b>
body:
I was actually thinking this the other day after I read the Be'lal incognito theory.  The DO says &quot;even I can't step outside of time&quot; or something to that effect.  It led me to believe that maybe time itself is the prison. Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-14 04:51:26
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
i love te whole TIME is the prison thing<br /><br />but i have to say that i disagry with the larst line, i say that it is posabul for the Dark One to break out of time 1 reson is becaus thinking that he cant under any conditions break out makes the whole thing you know not as intresting.<br /><br />if the Dark One and the Creater are of equal power the why cant the Dark One break somthing made by his equal even if he is on the inside. after all Rand was able to break the shiled back in whatever(i cant remember what its called &quot;stupid brain&quot; i think it starts with a 'D') wells<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..........what?.....STOP LOOKING AT ME!!...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-14 12:30:29
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
is that Creator don't care what happens in Randland because it is &quot;only&quot; one of universes She had created. Or sooner or later this universe will be destroyed by DO but then Creator has already created new universes. Or I think that &quot;prison&quot; is actually firewall equivalent and Dragon is virusscanner equivalent but sooner or later He will penetrate or corrupt those defences and so Randland will be wiped out. But then DO will turn remains of this universe as his base in His operations against those new universes and that process will go on.<br />


created: 2005-08-14 18:37:37
subject: <b>I'm unconvinced either way.</b>
body:
I thought proton decay was still VERY hypothetical; we haven't proven they decay, only that they don't decay in less than 10^40 years, which is not the same thing at all.  Personally, I don't really see entropic problems with a cyclical universe that's closed (as we seem to have determined it is; ) at some point all the stuff inside expends its energy in collisions with other stuff inside, we're left with nothing besides matter save gravity, and gravity pulls everything back to a Big Crunch that culminates in another Big Bang when it reaches critical mass.  My objection remains Aristotles that none of that elegant logic explains where matter and energy came from in the first place.<br /><br />As for the DO and THAT cycle, I have to agree with the earlier observation that the law of averages is against the Dragon; sooner or later the DO must break out, and in fact it seems to me the challenge becomes that much greater each time, the stakes higher, and the DO that much closer to success.  After all, Rand still has NO plan for shoving the DO back in at Tarmon Gaidon, and expecting him to derive the method of creating the Seals based solely on the interrogation of a madman is expecting a bit much, IMHO.  <br /><br />My bet is that ultimately the DO get out (though I don't think it happens this time 'round) and does what the DO does: destroy everything in sight (and how naive are the Forsaken?)  Once the issue is decided, and all life eradicated by the DO, the Creator is free to step in without nullifying free will, and imprisons the DO then builds a new Creation out of the ashes of the old.  A new heaven and a new earth, as it were.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-14 20:47:54
subject: <b>DO vs Creator</b>
body:
I always thought that it was entirely possible for the DO to win, and when he did, then he would remake the world in his image(which would solve the entropy problems) and imprison the creator in the same way as how he(the DO) was bound.<br />Then the DO would take the place of the creator, and the creator would be the new DO.<br />In this way, neither of the entities are evil, but they must exploit the fact that disorder will weaken the prison in which they are bound, the easiest way to create disorder being to kill etc, to do acts that are considered &quot;evil&quot;.<br />This would concur with the statement that the DO was bound at the moment of creation, and also solve the problem of the patch over the DOs prison needing to be remade.<br /><br />Im not sure if this implies that the DO will break free at the end of the 7th age, which bears the question, why bother trying to escape in the others?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-15 09:40:31
subject: <b>Proton decay</b>
body:
About proton decay: sorry, I wasn't quite clear on what I was saying.  Some grand unification theories predict that protons would decay after an extremely long time.  From experiment, we know that if they do decay, the half-life has to be greater than 10^35 years or so.  M-theory seems to be the current contender for grand unification, having been shown to be a superset of all previous string theories.  But I don't know what it says about proton decay, and under any circumstances we won't have any particular evidence for m-theory until the new supercollider at CERN comes online in a couple years, if then.  SO, proton decay MIGHT be a problem, or it might not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for the cyclical bang-crunch idea, it doesn't quite work that way.  Whether the universe will collapse or not is open for debate, but it doesn't look like it will at this point.  And even if it did, there's no reason to suspect that another big bang would result.  We don't even know why the first one happened (assuming it did).  Things prior to time are, by definition, outside the realm of science.


created: 2005-08-15 10:51:51
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
Really enjoyed your theory.  You really tried to pull in all possibilities of the nature of Jordan's universe.  I always wonder how far Jordan himself has taken this.  Does he even have a logical explanation for the wheel and how it would integrate into our world (difficult as you have pointed out), or a world of it's own (a bit easier)?  I mean, he's only human.  However, given his background and attention to detail, he's probably got a pretty good answer for most of it.  <br /><br />Either way, it's not integral to the storytelling, depending on how the series ends.  Casual readers just accept that the wheel is infinite, and don't read to much into Ishys comments, or Aes Sedai explanations of the pattern, Creator, time, etc..  They tend to just focus on &quot;this&quot; turning of the wheel, and whether the dragon will win, followed by an assumed time of peace.  After all, in Fantasy we're used to magic solving most &quot;logic&quot; problems, as you've described.<br /><br />Anyway, really liked you last section regarding your viewpoint on God, time, and free will as it relates to our world theology, as well as within the Wheel of Time.  You have a good mind towards logic and science, which is still open to other forces being at work.  <br /><br />Thanks.


created: 2005-08-16 06:52:49
subject: <b>Not sure I follow so much.....</b>
body:
Now, I'm definetly not saying that I disagree, but I would like some clarification.  Why will the DO never break out?  From what I get out of your last two paragraphs, the creator used time (which is simply a side-effect of his eternal creation, the pattern) to imprison the DO.  Now, you say that the DO can break from this, but never will.  I gather he will not beacuse he no longer realizes he can step out of time.  Why does he think he can no longer step out of time?  Is it because he was imprisioned literally at the beginning of time and the universe in general, and thinks that he has always been inside of time?  This is where you lose me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And gentlemen in England now a-bed<br />Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,<br />And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks<br />That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.<br />--Henry V</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 09:20:04
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
He won't break out because the Creator structured events through all eternity in such a way that the required circumstances will never come to pass.  It's logically and technically possible, it just won't happen.


created: 2005-08-16 22:49:12
subject: <b>I really liked this</b>
body:
It's nerd stuff to be sure, but I love nerdy stuff. You actually opened my eyes to the free will idea. That was a mind blower. To submit particle chaos into the idea of free will, well that was pretty profound, and I wonder how I will come across at parties with that idea, because what you discuss goes into Real Life as well. <br /><br />Anyway. I too, Jordan being a physicist, have loved these little theories, they are more into the mind of Jordan then they are based in reality, but he had ideas for this book being a physics major, and lets face it, that&#8217;s as reality as it comes. I am not saying I believe in WOT, or anything that makes me a &#8220;spooky fan&#8221; or something like that, but what you are trying to do is get inside this brilliant mans mind and discover his philosophy about life and time, and I like it. If we big bang and big crunch, it would stand to science, that everything happens EXACTLY like it does in every cycle, all math, molecules, and them forming complex DNA, and your part about the creator foreseeing all possibilities, and the problems with quantum mechanics, well, maybe that is free will, described in science, anyway, you opened a door in my mind, THANKS!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 22:53:15
subject: <b>Oh and I should say...</b>
body:
I don't remember what theory I posted this on, but I brought up the Big Bang Big Crunch idea for our own world, and then somebody brought up, if we big Crunch, how could they know our history, or myths, etc? So it kinda blows that way. But I love your thought train.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-17 02:25:48
subject: <b>A few thoughts</b>
body:
If there is a Creator, then he had to create something, therefore there IS a beginning somewhere.  Same with the Big Bang.  It's ok to say &quot;Everyhting came into being when this ball of matter and energy exploded,&quot; but where did it come from to begin with?<br /><br />Whos says that the Dark One and the Creator are equal?  In the Judeo-Christian tradition, Satan started as one of God's angels.  He rebelled becasue he didn't like serving God and was then imprisoned, along witht he angels who followed him.<br /><br />To a point, I like Morambar's idea that the Dark One does break free, destroy everything and the Creator just re-imprisons him and starts over every few cycles.  This would explain hos the prison is hole by the time the Second Age (Or whatever the AoL was) come around.  Something about it doesn't sit right though.<br /><br />With the resouces, either the Creator can create more, or there are cycles where there are no people and the resources just come back on their own eventually.<br /><br />Another thing that keeps popping up in my mind is the &quot;alternate realities&quot; we've seen, in the portal stones and when Rand and co. traveled to Toman Head and everyone saw how their lives could have played out.  We know that the stones take people to places that COULD have happened, but some are more likely than others, like the one Rand ended up in when he met Selene.  No people, no animals, nothing except what sounds like the vapor trail from a jet, and it was washed out and weird, which leads us to believe that it's not a likely future.  I'm sure that in some of those the Dark One has broken free.  I mean, if there are no people in that world, there's nobody to stop him, right?  And when Rand is traveling to Toman Head he sees countless lives where he dies and the Dark One does win. I'm not sure how that plays out since I remember reading somewhere that if the Dark One wins in one world he wins in all of them, unless I'm thinking about different books.<br /><br />Maybe there is only one REAL world, like in the Dark Tower Series by Stephen King.  For those of you who aren't familiar, there are 6 true worlds, each on the end of a &quot;beam&quot; which meet at the Dark Tower.  Each world has an infinite number of variations, but only the &quot;true&quot; world REALLY matters.  You could travel to an Earth where the Colonies lost the American Revolution, for example, and meet another version of you, but that wouldn't be the REAL you (or would it?).  If you died while visiting any of those other worlds, you could conceivably come back somehow, but if you died in a REAL world, you were done for good.  If the Dark One breaks free in the REAL world (Randland?  Or not?) then the pattern is toast.  As long as the Dragon keeps defeating him then everyhitng is ok.  the creator makes sure that everyhting is in place for the Dragon to win every time, and it is ont in the alternate realities that the Dark One wins, but it doesn't matter.


created: 2005-08-17 02:42:30
subject: <b>Nice theory...</b>
body:
But I always liked the idea that the DO was unique to a cycle of 7 ages. At least thats how I got around the whole &quot;infinite attempts to escape&quot; bit.


created: 2005-08-17 07:24:55
subject: <b>Thanks for the clarification...</b>
body:
So the creator made a game the DO cannot win, no matter what...  very interesting.  I find it to be entirely possible whether or not the DO is the creator's equal or his superior, it only requires the creator pulling the wool over his eyes at some point before the beginning of the universe.  Possible if not plausible.  I remaine undecided, but a great theory none-the-less!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And gentlemen in England now a-bed<br />Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,<br />And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks<br />That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.<br />--Henry V</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-17 14:22:08
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
&quot;If there is a Creator, then he had to create something, therefore there IS a beginning somewhere.&quot;<br /><br />If the Creator exists outside linear time, though, that beginning isn't necessarily a point in our history.  Hard to wrap one's brain around, no? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Whos says that the Dark One and the Creator are equal?&quot;<br /><br />Robert Jordan.<br /><br />&quot;I'm sure that in some of those [alternate realities] the Dark One has broken free.&quot;<br /><br />Except that Verin said that if he escapes in one, he escapes in all.  Admittedly she could be wrong/lying, but it does make sense.  As for the alternate reality with Selene, I don't think the absence of people is what the DO needs to escape.  It seems to involve Rand in some way, and not his death in the alternate lives.  If Rand dies, the DO &quot;wins&quot; in some sense, but still doesn't get everything he wants.  Shoot, Ishmael claims that there have been occasions that the Dragon has been turned to the Shadow, and STILL the DO doesn't seem to have escaped.<br /><br />So just what are the DO's victory conditions, anyhow?


created: 2005-08-17 19:56:41
subject: <b>I have won again, Lews Therin....</b>
body:
RJ was asked about this particular sequence from TGH and he said:<br />&quot;There are degrees of victory.&quot;<br /><br />He extrapolated a bit on that, and basically it broke down to the DO winning a battle but not winning the war, or he won the war but didn't get everything he wanted/expected to from his victory.<br /><br />Basically Rand was shown some of the different possible paths he could take, but none of those he saw were the right ones.  (However, it might also be said that it wasn't the path that would give the DO his &quot;complete&quot; victory, either.) <br /><br />From this we might conclude that the Dragon has no free will, and <i>must</i> perform certain tasks while traversing a very narrow bridge to reach his destination to fulfill the Creator's grand scheme. OTOH, it appears that the DO must need the Dragon to walk this same path for quite the same distance, and there is a crossroads where one decision alters everything, either in the Creator's direction or the DO's.<br /><br />Nice theory, I give it a thimbs up!<br /><br />One thing I didn't bring up, however, is that RJ has said the reason you can't go to the Blight or Shayol Ghul in T'A'R is that they aren't a part of the &quot;normal universe&quot;. (whatever that means) So maybe you ought to include an explanation for that, too.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 01:20:00
subject: <b>Victory for the DO</b>
body:
Every Age, theoretically, at least, has its own Tarmon Gaidon.  In the AoL, that was the War of Power/the Shadow.  In this Age it will be TG.  Not the Last Battle in the sense that there will be no more battles after it, but the last batlle of this Age.  That Last Battle is basically the Dragon versus the DO.  Now here's the crux:  The DO can only break free/be re-imprisoned at the &quot;Last Battle.&quot;  The only one who can do either of these is the Dragon.  But the Dragon is, by definition, the DO's enemy in the Last Battle.  So if he is turned to the Shadow, The Do has one a small victory, but has lost the opportunity to break free completely, because the Last Battle has been averted.  But neither can he be totally resealed for the same reason.  So for the DO to win completely, he must turn The Dragon during TG.  This is beyond his ability simply because its a friggin battle.  So, the DO can escape, but never will.  Killing the Dragon has the same effetct as turning him<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-24 12:42:10
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
I agree with Wingnut.  Creator implies creation.  Creation implies finitude, at least in the past.  While your response that time did not exist at the moment of creation and thus the universe always existed is well taken, it is possible to have a finite &quot;always.&quot;<br /><br />Think of the function X &gt; 0.  At any given point on the resulting line (be it 100, 10, 1 or .000001), there are still an infinite number of points between that point and the left bound of the line.  This is basically Zeno's (or is it Xeno) paradox applied to time.  However, as X approaches 0 from the right, the distance between any given point and the left bound decreases despite being, in a sense, infinite.  However, once finite, bounded units are assigned to time, such as ages and turnings, it quickly becomes clear that there can have been only so many ages and turnings between now and the (non-)moment of creation.<br /><br />(Of course, all that presupposes that time is continuous, rather than a series of finite point discontinuities.)<br /><br /><br />Anyway, great theory.  I've always considered the DO's plan to slay time to be identical to what Azrael seeks in Dogma: a complete and utter end to all things.  Given that, in one sense, time is merely a filter that confers perspective on an observer, a universe without time would be no universe at all.  It would be reduced to a shadow of a shadow.<br /><br />Final rambling, I promise.  I must take issue with your refutation of the no-consequence-to-DO's-escape hypothesis.  Over the life of an infinite universe, as you point out, everything that can happen, must happen.  By definition, if it hasn't happened yet, you are still waiting for something, and thus the universe is not infinite.  As such, there is really no consequence to anything.  Everything that is made will be unmade.  Everything that is done will be undone.  A consequence is a result, and it makes no sense to speak of the results of an infinite system.  <br /><br />The only possibility that remains concerns bounded infinites.  If the Creator created a universe not on a linear schedule but running in a time loop, then bounded infinity is possible.  Instead of slaying time itself, the DO may simply be trying to break the loop and straighten time itself, much as snapped rubber band looks.  In that case, time would eventually run out, causing the ending of the world (DO wins) and/or the ending of any time-based prison (DO wins).  The job of the Dragon may be to prevent the DO from snapping the rubber band, or, failing that, to retie it until the Creator can restore the rubber band to its original state.<br /><br />This theory has the benefit of accounting for a finite infinite.  A circle has no beginning nor ending, but you can only have made so many laps on it.  <br />


created: 2005-08-30 15:32:32
subject: <b>title</b>
body:
I have thought of much of this before and have in my own delosional mind adapted it with what I know/think of physics.<br /><br />According to the Big Bang theory (this part is supported by pictures from the Hubble Telescope) the universe started as a &quot;smooth&quot; material, which is called the quantum foam.  This exploded giving us existance.  This foam is not as readily aparent as it once was, but it is still detectable.<br /><br />All mater and energy is made up of quarks (sp?).  All quarks are made up of strings.<br /><br />Given that matter and energy at their base are made of the same material, and assuming that proton decay takes place, it may be safe to assume that the same happens to energy.  As nothing can truely be destroyed, it can only be changed, this decay must result in the materials returning to their original state, strings.<br /><br />Following this The True Source would be made up of strings that are not at presant acting as matter or energy.<br /><br />This would allow, or even cause starts to be renewed.<br /><br />As for the the natural resource issues we need to look at a few items.  The earths core is liquid.  The earth spins very rapidly.  This would cause the materials in the core to seperate according to their weight.  We can assume that The Breaking occurs once every seven ages.  When the during the brreaking a great deal of what was on the earths surface was forced into the core, and a great deal of what was in the core was forced to the surface, no more issues with natural resources.<br /><br />As to the Dark One v/s the Creator, I have always believed that the Dark One was not an equal, but a creation of the Creator.  Not sure about this though, still trying to figure out what I think of this.<br /><br />And lastly your comments on free will, I have always pictured God's foreknowledge of our actions like watching a rerun on TV, you know what will happen, but you do not control it.


created: 2005-09-01 12:55:36
subject: <b>Some more comments... and a question.</b>
body:
I posted a general agree earlier, but I have sinced noticed a problem after reading &quot;World of WOT&quot;.  I realize this isn't considered &quot;cannon&quot;, but it makes me wonder none the less.<br /><br />So.. I like the idea that the Dark One's prision is time, or at least that he is bound by time (as this theory states).  This coincides with his comment to Demandred (&quot;I can't step out of time&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  This DIRECTLY implies that he is bound by time.  HOWEVER, in &quot;World of WOT&quot;, it is mentioned many times that the Dark One was bound in a prision OUTSIDE of Time.  How is this possible?  I mean, could the &quot;World of WOT&quot; ignore the books that much?  I may post this in the Message Board to get some more input..<br /><br />In pondering the series, I find myself more and more thinking about the ideological stuff, rather than the characters (it's bad for me, I know).  It helps me to buy into the world if I understand the backbone.  My major questions at this point are:<br /><br />- What was/is the thinness?  Where did it come from? (lots of theories on this, but none that I fully buy into)<br /><br />- Is Shayol Ghul the original site of the Sharom (where the thinness was originally detected)?<br /><br />- If the &quot;new power&quot; was detected BEHIND the thinness, and then a BORE was drilled THROUGH the thinness to get to the Dark One's prison, then how come the BORE itself is still considered as detectable BEHIND the thinness (Demandred's comments. I might be misreading them)?  This isn't a big deal, as I think I understand it, but it still makes me question exactly WHAT the thinness is.<br /><br />- Finally, as I stated in this theory, is the Dark One's prision inside Time, or outside Time?<br /><br />I'm OK with the Creator, Wheel, One Power/True Power, Pattern, Seals, etc..  I'm mostly curious about the thinness, bore, and Dark One's prison.


created: 2006-02-05 12:32:16
subject: <b>My two cents...</b>
body:
When you're looking at a number, the numbver 1 for example. Now if the number 1 greater and 1 or less then one? 1 is simply 1 because we say so. But why is the number one 1 and now more or less then one? Because 1 is what we consider as exact. When something is exact, it cannot be debated because if it is exact, then it is.<br /><br />If the DO's prison is time, the DO cannot step outside of time hence it implies that he is inside. Now the whole bore thing. That they drilled through the pattern to get to the DO's prison. If you really incline to believe that those people in the AoL drill OUTSIDE of time, and the DO's prison is outside of time... Then well, let's say that time is relative and since it is, it can be shaped according to the pattern because time itself is &quot;infinite&quot; as long as there is a Pattern. Without Pattern, there will be no time. So I believe that the DO cannot step outside of Time, he cannot step outside of the Pattern. All within the pattern can cast an influence upon it. The DO wants to break free of his prison, thus remaking the Pattern. Breaking free of his prison, breaking free of time will unravel the Pattern since time is 'broken'. Breaking the pattern will break the meaning of time. The DO will remake the world in his own image, creating his own version of the Pattern, his own version of time.<br /><br />The Creator exists outside of time, thus he cannot lend a hand within RandLand, why we have Forsakens and no champions of light at the same time. The creator is a big supporter on free will and balance. And since he exists, a version of himself will need to exists as well, thus the DO's existance. But if he exists, he can't let his other version run wild, thus the imprisionment in something pertetual, time. But the DO is not just a puppet, it has FREE WILL, which explains the DO's own actions.<br /><br />The Dark One can win the battles on Rand Land, but he won't break out of time. He can cause misery upon RandLand all he likes, but he won't be able to break out of time unless the Pattern unravels, which unravels time, his prison. But unravelling the pattern means the end of everything. The end of everything means that there is no longer a world for the DO to change. And the only thing that can unravel a pattern is millions of years of horrible ta'veren work or using heaps of balefire to KILL EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING in order to burn the whole pattern to cinders. It's a paradox, it's a never ending cycle, thus the wheel turns. A wheel is round yo, so RJ uses that symbol of the world to hold the meaning of the pertetual cycle.<br /><br />It's like a problem of P vs NP. For those who know what that is, you'd know that P vs NP is not solvable. It cannot be solved. You can write equations as long as nine football fields if you like but you won't be able to solve this problem. The DO and his prison. He can't get out, he can never get out because it is not possible.<br /><br />Rand and Lews BOTH admit that they will NEED to die at TG. Why they need to die at TG? It is because it is believed the Dragon Reborn is the KEY to defeating the DO, as he is also the KEY in &quot;opening&quot; his prison. This is what is believed even though it is not true. Depending on whether the Dragon Reborn is good or bad, the following Age will be dark or light, filled with War or Peace. If the Dragon is evil, then the DO would have won this battle. He just WINS, but he doesn't bust out of his little prison.<br /><br />I know my ideas are all over the place but sorry... I'm rather sleepy.<br /><br />The drilling of the Bore only let the DO's influence upon the world be known. Drilling of the bore created a hole in the fabric of time. Now since time exists alongside the Pattern, a hole is in the pattern. This &quot;hole&quot; continues along the pattern forever and ever and ever. Even if they make the hole larger, the DO won't escape still because time continues to flow. His influence might be more upon the world though.<br /><br />Umm... What else was I wanting to say...<br /><br />That's it for now. Until I can think of something else. I guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://tinyurl.com/k4za4<br /><b>&quot;Intuitively Obviously Revealed!&quot;</b> <br />Submitted by kcf<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/jcxpw<br /><b>&quot;The Power that resides in the Kitchen&quot;</b><br />Submitted by sidious</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-31 13:44:17
subject: <b>The nature of Good and Evil and anything else</b>
body:
Let me preface this by saying I'm only a casual reader of these posts and this is my first post.  If I am repeating any other posters thoughts, than I can only apologize or say that great minds think alike.  Also I'm not as academic in the realms of physics as other posters seem to be, but I do have a basic understanding of some of the principles, and I hope what I add can add a better understanding to there thoughts.<br /><br />I think the creator and dark one are one and the same.  Opposite sides of the same coin.  Perhaps the DO is merely the creators darkside, or shadow side.  This would make sense in a way...if you were a supremely powerful omnipotent being you might realize your dark side is a potential problem and find ways of imprisioning it, or compartmentalizing it.  In a way seperating it from yourself, but in the end anyones shadow side is still a part of themselves and can't be repressed forever.  So I think it's plain to see that both the creator and the DO are of equal power, they just represent diffent aspects of power.  The creator creates, the DO destroys.  Both are crucial to exsitence.  However, destruction is a limited state.  You can only destroy for so long before everything is destroyed.  Creation can exist for the length of the creation, until it destroys itself or until the DO finds a way of destroying it.  <br />      In the case of the WoT universe I think RJ is basing it on what he thinks of as reality, which I would assume is based on both his theories of physics and mythology.  Therefore the WoT universe is a mythological world very similar to ours, but RJ has added on defintie proof of things like alternate realities, multiple realities, and even places outside of reality which obey different physical rules.  All of these things should be taken into account when making any theories about WoT.  <br />     With all of that in mind it, it seems to me that the creator trapped it's darkside, perhaps not only outside of time but outside of the same reality.  We already know that creatures like the Eelfin, and Aelfinn (sp?) exist in alternate realities that don't seem to obey the same physical laws, yet they still have strange connections to the regular WoT universe.  If it's possible to have objects weaved from the one power that are seemingly permenant gateways into these alternate realms of the Eelfinn and Aelfinn, it would then seem to be possible that channelers in the AoL were able to bore holes or gateways to where ever the DO was being held.  It's very scary in a sense if this is the set up that mere mortals even using the one power, a kind of magic, are able to affect things that the Creator, basically God, has set up.  it makes me wonder if channelers could affect the Creator in any way.<br />      Overall, I think what the set up of the WoT universe is meant to convey is that there must be a balance between good and evil, and that one can't exist without the other, and that life is caught in the middle of this struggle the creator is having with itself.  There are mentions (I can't remember exactly where) of a time before the bore where the DO had no influence at all over the universe, and then after the bore, he began to slowly exert more and more control, until eventually it becomes time for a battle.  In a way people are just the wild cards in the mix that will effect the outcome one way or another based upon their free will. It's as if the Creator and the DO are evenly matched arm wrestlers, without people they would exist in evenly matched balance for infinity, with neither one ever winning or losing.  Creating people and allowing them free will to decide one side over another and then giving them power to effect that outcome allows for either side to win completly at different turns of the wheel.  However, I would agree with the posters who have said that if the dark one wins he'll just eventually destroy everything, and that the Forsaken are foolish for siding with him.  Another way of looking at it that the DO is like sped up entropy.  People with free will who chose not to aid the creator may eventually bring about destruction, but the DO speeds up this process.  I would also add that perhaps the Dragon is  specifically helped by the creator because the act of the bore sent the balance shifting too much in the other direction toward the DO.  The Dragon gives the side of the Creator a fighting chance.  Then again, maybe the cycles of the wheel of time are all an attempt by the creator to get the Genie back in the bottle.  The ultimate goal could be for people to see that they need to take an active role in expelling darkness.  The reward is a golden age of peace and prosperity, but all the the while the repression of the DO is building like steam in a kettle.  The DO will eventually get out again no matter what Rand does this time, and the cycle will start again.


created: 2007-01-12 04:03:23
subject: <b>The Portal Worlds</b>
body:
may hold the key here.  There's the theory that every possible result of every instant splits off into another alternate universe.  There's a chance that the DO will escape, but the book follows the &quot;just right&quot; universe.<br />In the TV show Stargate: SG-1, there's a &quot;Quantum Mirror&quot; that allows travel into other alternate realities (much like portal stones).  In one episode, you see and hear of how so many universes have resulted in the Earth being taken over by the Goauld, the main villains at the time.  There were few universes where ocurences had turned out in the main character's favour, but WE FOLLOW ONE OF THE FEW THAT DID.  The same thing happens in WoT.  Every moment is producing more alternate realities, but the book (Portal Stones beside) ignores all but the one that has a happy ending.<br /><br />As to the &quot;the less likely, the fainter&quot; about portal worlds, I can only guess that this is because the people describing said faintness aren't supposed to be there.


created: 2005-08-14 06:34:35
subject: <b>Volcano</b>
body:
Your theory is nice and well written, and I agree that it is a possibility<br /><br />It might also be that the sulfur actually comes from Dragonmount.<br /><br />Check the theories on the last battle. Several thinks that Dragonmount is going to erupt when the Dark One breaks free. I think that it might.<br /><br />A volcano that is about to erupt might send out sulphur in the air as well, and the proximity of the forsaken might be enough to explain that people are scared. <br /><br />Still, I like your theory, and I would love to see it come true.


created: 2005-08-14 17:53:31
subject: <b>Partial disagreement...</b>
body:
I don't believe the White Tower will be rent with blood (unlike the dread lord breeding ground 'Black Tower'); so I tend to believe that WT will be unified prior the Seanchan attack.<br /><br />So, I don't disagree that the Seanchan will attack.  Rather, I just believe this will occur in book 12.  I believe it will be the 2nd battlefield of book 12 (ala The Lord of the Rings/Return of the King with Pelenor fields and Mordor), with the other being Rand's assault on Shayol Ghul.<br /><br />In book 11, I tend to think that Egwene's head will reach the chopping block... but will *not* be resolved.


created: 2005-08-14 19:03:25
subject: <b>Good one....</b>
body:
Taking this and your Nicola's Foretelling theory, it could be that the dark are planning a huge attack when/during the SC seige.<br />Which would be a good way to open up TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-15 02:08:24
subject: <b>Seanchan and the Ways</b>
body:
Suroth controls Liandrin...Liandrin strolled throught the ways with the Wondergirls in tow, not too worried about Machin Shin, also had a map that at least showed the route from Tar Valon to the Waygate near Falme...maybe the Seanchan might use the Ways to invade Tar Valon instead of from the air???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania's very own 'Sex Wiki'<br /><i>The Dirty Old Man of Wotmania</i><br /><br /> <br />attack of the Ninja Smiley<br /><br />BigBrotherBrian to most of the Wotmania Sisterhood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-15 17:30:22
subject: <b>I agree!</b>
body:
Your theroy made sense. And, given our current evidence, I think it will work. I also agree with the comment that they might use the ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-15 22:12:53
subject: <b>Generally agree - but playtime is over</b>
body:
&quot;As said, I don't expect that the Shadow wants to destroy the whole White Tower with such an attack. If I'm right, it will rather be a swift strike to create confusion, so that the Seanchan attack will likely be more successful; maybe another reason is to kill the Black Ajah Hunters.&quot;<br /><br />I think since the cleansing there is no more let rand live etc, see Semi's actions against the seanchan, the shadow will crush the WT given the opportunity. <br /><br />Which is why I think the white tower will turn to bedlam, TAS vs SAS vs Seanchan vs Shadowspawn vs BA and then Egwene will do a Joan of Arc and Rally them or perhaps Elaida will actually do something for the light and burn herself out heroically aka manetheren style <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have never endorsed any viewpoint at any time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br />This one included <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-15 22:18:24
subject: <b>The Last Battle</b>
body:
All of this depends on where the Last Battle takes place. In the Blight alone or a full on war in Randland.<br /><br />The HoV prophecy mentions Mat rallying the forces of the light in Illian. Elayne's accepted test showed Andor sacked. A huge army of borderlanders will be saved should the Trollocs via Gateways sack the capitals.<br /><br />I think Egwene's dual dream of the White Tower being invaded and saved by Seanchan is based on the Suroth (df) v Tuon (light) Empress fight which will occur in KoD. Suroth will attack the WT, but Tuon won't.<br /><br />When Rand binds the 9 moons, Perrin destroys the Shaido, Elayne wins the crown, Darlin wins the crown, Itulrade (sp?) beats back the Seanchan. You may just have a united Westland under Rand.<br /><br />I really really doubt the Last Battle will be in the Blight alone. The DO will send his hordes south to buy time when Chaos no longer rules. The Borderlanders are gone. The next target on the map is the White Tower. The Shadow will take the White Tower and forces under Captain General Cauthon will retake the Tower and I have no doubt his wife's Seanchan army will be involved fulfilling Eghead's dream.<br /><br />


created: 2005-08-16 22:39:38
subject: <b>Am I the only one?</b>
body:
That felt like whatever the Hunters were going to spring on the Tower already happened by the time we saw Egwene captured? There was such tenseness amongst the sisters, it's like they already knew who was black and who not (or at least what ajahs were implicated). I am rusty, it has been 2 to 3 years since I have reread the series, and I might be missing something important, but to me, it just seemed like Egween's capture scene happened after the Black Ajah hunters have come out of the closet. Why else the harshness amongst sisters? I could be retarded; my pencil isn't sharp anymore...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-17 05:39:02
subject: <b>Reply to Windsor</b>
body:
Elaida did, under the influence of Alviarin, take certain steps to promote the animosity between the Ajahs. The hostility between the sisters is a result of that.


created: 2005-08-17 17:46:21
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
i like your idea and i also see a distinct possiblity that at least SOME of this will come true<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IB therefore i bs<br />           -Iternational Baccalaureate unoffcial motto</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-22 09:39:54
subject: <b>Good one, Etzel</b>
body:
Particularly, the Darkhounds stench.<br /><br />Just finished re-read of CoT, and connected Perrin`s reference to the stink as the possible reference in KoD.<br /><br />What is unclear in my mind is whether non-wolfbrothers/sisters can smell the Darkhounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-24 01:20:35
subject: <b>There's certainly a lot of possibilities.....</b>
body:
And most of it is conjecture at this point. It would seem to me that the Shadow would want to take as many Aes Sedai prisoner as possible, (as damane), first though. Why kill what could be helpful in the long run?<br /><br />Not that there is necessarily that much time left, anyway. Still, they could be useful creating Shields, etc, when the time comes for the major assault, and it would be foolish to not use them in some capacity. OTOH, the DO does get wasteful, too, so who's to say? <br /><br />However, the army the SAS have gathered and the Tower guard might be a prime target for such a tactic. Might as well start taking out some of the soldiers, and Shadowspawn would be the way to go, IMHO. The Power users will probably be utilized against other Power users. (As Goodkind would say; magic against the magic, steel against the steel.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 03:34:10
subject: <b>i read this somewhere</b>
body:
anyway i havent read the prologue cos im cheap and stingy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> but when i was looking for the release date (im from australia) i found this:<br />&quot;The Seanchan Empire has primed their invading armies and they are advancing rapidly. The people look to the Aes Sedai sisterhood for protection, but the Aes Sedai have grown complacent after generations of authority. Yet as their numbers have dwindled, a secret society has been hiding under the White Tower's very nose. A society rich in power that could make all the difference in the final conflict . . . &quot;<br />at first i thought it was an old thing refering to the kin but it indicates that they are powerful . i hadnt read this anywhere b4 but found it very interesting. are they refering to those chinese wannabes across the waste? but thy're not really under the WTs nose are they? what part will they play in the whole &quot;war of the white tower&quot;<br />you have probably seen this b4 or it was completely wrong although i doubt it cos it was an online bookstore<br />anyway is this true ?


created: 2007-02-08 15:48:06
subject: <b>Re: TO HEAL AGAIN</b>
body:
if i had to guess i'd say that the secret society you read about is the black ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;From nothing, nothing comes&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-22 01:51:07
subject: <b>The bat</b>
body:
The bat, is in fact just a bat. RJ has said so himself, and I have reason to believe him..<br /><br />I do, however, agree that some sort of shadowspawn/black ajah/forsaken aid will be given to the Seanchan. Maybe the Black Ajah will weave a couple of gateways, who knows.


created: 2005-08-16 09:15:20
subject: <b>Hmmmm interesting</b>
body:
Taim is certainly an enigma, many of his actions and attributes point towards the shadow, but i still can't get my head round him bowing to anyone. Maybe KoD will reveal more.<br />This is a great theory, as it is the first theory that explains his survival without putting him on forsaken levels (DO protection) or having as superman (resisting the taint for 40 odd years). Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 09:16:44
subject: <b>This was often discussed and I agree.</b>
body:
Good point that Taim might be a channeler without the spark. <br />Although, if Taim was really Ishy's pupil, one can simply assume that he got the DO's protection and therefore didn't become mad.


created: 2005-08-16 10:28:19
subject: <b>your first assumption is wrong...</b>
body:
In both NS and in an interview, RJ has said that men develop the spark later than women - sometimes as late their early 30s. To me this is prettly clearly RJ addressing Taim's age descrepencey by saying their isn't one - he developed the spark late.<br /><br />About him being trained...well, that's a different mystery.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 22:34:25
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
It's the first simple theory I have heard in a long time without speculation. If you don't channel, you don't go mad, Taim was taught. I have never discussed this with anybody before, and haven't posted on Theory Post since I was waiting for COT. I am warming up for the next book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />I like it more then the Belal theories, even though that would rock if they were true too. Anyway, nice find, RAFO to see if it's true, but you might be one to something. Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-17 01:20:54
subject: <b>To address kcf</b>
body:
Even if Taim started channelling in his early 30's, he would still have had to be at it for a considerable amount of time to now have the appearance of someone in his mid to late 30's. Recall that some of the kinswomen, without the constraints of the oath rod take 600 years before they appear to be middle aged.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-17 05:29:09
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
I think RJ was talking about LOgain who seems to be around 30, so could have got away with less Taint. Taim is more like mid 40s (not inc. slowing effect) so its unlikely he avoided Taint for 10 to 15 years without 'help'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-17 07:39:13
subject: <b>Still don't buy it</b>
body:
This is the most hotly contested issue since &quot;Who killed Asmodean?&quot; was in its heyday, and noone has yet convinced me that 1. Taim is not insane and 2. he is a DF.  Your theory is simple and can work, but lacks evidence.  I still believe Taim is a March Hare and has plans on being the Dragon (that's right Dragon, not Dreadlord).  <br />As for him knowing how to test for men, I do not find it that hard to fathom that someone of Taim's lunatic like sense of discipline and dedication could discover what he was looking for.  If the man thinks he is the Dragon, then he would want to know how to test other men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And gentlemen in England now a-bed<br />Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,<br />And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks<br />That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.<br />--Henry V</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-18 00:41:15
subject: <b>I'd rather he weren't a DF, but the evidence says otherwise</b>
body:
I agree that Taim would be a more interesting and unique character if he weren't a DF, but you can't ignore the evidence cited in this theory.  He knows too many things too well to be self-taught.<br />As for who Taim would or wouldn't bow to: Taim may be a proud man, but he's also a smart one.  He'll bow and scrape as much as he needs to in order to to get close to those whom he intends to exploit for his own ends.  Just look at how hard he works to ingratiate himself to Rand in LoC.


created: 2005-08-18 01:03:02
subject:
<b>Nice job, I'm sold.  Unless we find out you're wrong, then you're an idiot. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I like it.  A lot.  You covered all the bases, and did it with Occams Razor to boot.  Plus, there's a precedent for Ishamael doing something like that: a little thing called the Trolloc Wars.  If it's as simple as &quot;Taim IS mad&quot; we've seen no evidence of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-18 11:03:21
subject: <b>Taim doesn't look to be in his mid to late 30s</b>
body:
he appears to be in his early to mid thirties. Taim is definately a bad guy, and can't be trusted, but when he said he's been channeling for about 10 years, I see no reason to not believe him.<br /><br />About the training - I agree that he has had some. Probably from Dashiva before Rand chose him in ACOS. Possibly from Ishy earlier, but that is speculative with what we know at this time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 09:05:12
subject: <b>taim did say</b>
body:
when Rand frist took Taim to the farm to test the men who Rand had found. Taim did say to Rand that he know how to test men and that he HAD tested them before and even said what what happend to them but with out my books in fornt of me i cant tell you what it was.<br /><br />but if you go back and Read the part again youll see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*bows* By your leave, mother, I will stand, the watch is not done.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 17:29:20
subject: <b>I agree, but to play devil's advocate...</b>
body:
We don't know that he's not loony out of his gord and just able to cover it up really well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 18:44:15
subject: <b>Dashiva was Taim's Ally</b>
body:
I think the scene where Rand choses Dashiva as one of the Asha'man to accompany him is pretty telling.  Taim reacts differently when Dashiva is chosen vs. Flinn for instance - which I took as a sign he knew who/ what Dashiva was.  Further, I think it was an example of Ta'veren helping Rand.  He appeared to randomly choose Dashiva, who was probably much better suited to staying at the Black Tower and conducting &quot;research&quot; and helping Taim build up the darkfriends among the Black Tower than being kept next to Rand.  This also is another example the strategy (by accident?) of keeping ones enemies close where they can be watched.  <br /><br />Sorry I can't give any more specifics of the scene, my books are far away right now, but at the time it jumped out at me.


created: 2005-08-20 04:14:01
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
Nice theory, but I don't agree.<br /><br />I find it highly unlikely that Ishamael would go around testing men, only to eventually stumble upon Taim - a man who is co-incidentally immensely strong in the Power. It just seems too unlikely.<br /><br />I do agree that he is Forsaken trained though - too much of his knowledge is unaccountable. I think he had the spark. Logain also looks older than Rand and he also had the spark. Some men can hold off the taint longer than others. The Breaking lasted an estimated three centuries - so it stands to reason that some males could hold off the taint for inordinate amounts of time.<br /><br />Channelers with the spark and generally stronger, but not always. Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Moiraine and Siuan all had the spark and they are the strongest in the Tower. The girls from the Two Rivers are also very strong. Sharina is a very rare exception. Egwene says that most of the new novices will never reach the Shawl.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-22 07:39:34
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
My problem with this theory is that aside from Taim acting suspicious, there is absolutely no proof of any connection between Taim and Ishamael.  None.   <br /><br />I just can't buy it, however, it would make some sense if it were true.  I mean, it is certainly possible that Taim could have channeled for a long time, it is just highly unlikely that he has.  Still, there is a chance.  <br /><br />Taim could have picked up some of his tricks on his own, or perhaps he has a voice in his head like Rand, telling him a few AoL tidbits.  Rand is able to recall certain tricks from the AoL when he first starts channeling, and we know that Lews Therin is telling him a lot of info on the Age of Legends.  <br /><br />I think that in this case, a simpler explaination is best, and a voice in Taim's head is much simpler than him having a Forsaken for a tutor, especially given the evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-24 12:06:58
subject: <b>Your arguments still work if he developed the spark late</b>
body:
I have the same primary objection as Sidious - that Ishy would hardly have gone around testing goes, hoping to stumble on someone who could channel (especially someone as strong as Taim).  Rather, I think it's much more likely that Taim developed the spark later - as kcf opined.  Once he started channeling, it would have been far simpler for Ishy to find him (far moreso by spies and rumors than actual detection) and begin training him.  <br /><br />All of that, I believe, still fits with the arguments you make (except for the spark, of course).


created: 2005-08-30 09:10:54
subject: <b>He dosnt have the spark</b>
body:
For my guess, i think that Taim is just another of the forsaken that no one knows about.  Not even the other Forsaken.  He knows how to do all of this because he lived in the age of legends. But was never sealed away in the bore.  Causes behind wars.  Maybe Taim.  Why he would wait till now to come out into the open is to kill the DR.  But how to kill someone stronger in the power than your self than by having some one else do it. Thats why he started the Ashaman.  So that he could find one stronger to kill him.  And need it be that he has to kill the DR he can always be close to him.  Most of the time knows where he is.  Ish didnt teach him, he learned in the age of legends.<br />Other wise the only other answer is that he gained saidin from the DO.  There he would have learned form the dark one and given instructions.  But i still go with that he learned in the age of legends but was and still is second compared to the dragon reborn but keeps his power hiden like the other Forsaken.


created: 2005-09-06 01:14:06
subject: <b>Taim one of the Hundred Companions?</b>
body:
Taim first pops up right about the time that seals begin to weaken and the forsaken are freed.  What if Taim was one of Lews Therin's Hundred Companions who was accidentally sucked into the seal? He could be a dark friend who was trying to sabotage the seal; helping or causing the resulting taint to saidin and weakness of the seal.<br /><br />In this scenario he could easily be 300 years old and still look only mid-thirties.  No need for him to be an unknown Forsaken; any Aes Sedai in the Age of Ledgends might know what he does.  It could explain how he knows all of the complex battle weaves.


created: 2005-09-07 11:49:52
subject: <b>About The Breaking</b>
body:
&quot;The Breaking lasted an estimated three centuries - so it stands to reason that some males could hold off the taint for inordinate amounts of time.&quot;<br /><br />The Breaking lasted as long as it did because some men who could channel hid in Steddings for a long time.  Eventually, however, the need to touch the Source won out and all eventually left the Steddings and went mad.  Jordan was quite clear on that point.<br /><br />As for The Forsaken randomly testing men until they came upon Taim; that doesn't need to be the case.  It could very well be that Taim was a Darkfriend who drew the attention of one of the Forsaken, who then decided to test him.<br /><br />Alternatively - do we have any evidence that suggests that you *must* be one of The Chosen in order for The Dark One to provide protection against the taint?


created: 2005-09-09 20:29:25
subject: <b>I'm late</b>
body:
Of course by now I've read all the new stuff from Dragon-Con that RJ decided to share. So we know that Taim was born with the spark and he's in his late 20's. <br /><br />The one thing I would have to say is Taim must have led a pretty rough life to look 35 if he's been channeling for 10 years and already slowed. This is from ACoS, The Kin:<br /><br />&quot;We <i>slow</i>, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we gegin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it.&quot;<br /><br />We also know that male channelers slow as well from the description of the looks in comparison to the ages given for Demandred, Asmo, etc. Unless RJ has completely different rules for <i>when</i> men start slowing, Taim's apparent look is out of the ordinary. Given how strong he is, and that he started channeling at about 19 or 20, he should have started slowing like the women do, and look closer to 22 than 35.<br /><br />Some have argued over the years that Taim was a minor noble, which would have given him the opportunity to have a finer education than commoners, and used this as an explanation for his slip-of-the-tongue phrases he's used. If nothing else, I would say his &quot;older look&quot; disputes this line of reasoning, and puts him as someone that has worked outside as a laborer/farmer. This reinforces the possibility that he was trained by a Forsaken to explain the slips.<br /><br />I guess Rand could be really bad at gauging someone's age, or RJ messed up with the original description.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-18 21:29:38
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Another bit of evidence:<br />I remember that when Rand and Lan were somewhere, I can't remember what the city was called (the one that stops ppl from reaching the true source with the ter'angreal) they were breaking in to a building, and they ambushed by some df Asha'man. One of the df Ashaman comments that the M'hael will be angry at them, because they are failing. now we all know who Mr M'Hael is...<br /><br />I know it's thin, but Taim was also strongly highlighted as not being respectful at all to Rand, and Dashiva was also highighted as behaving the same way. Their behaviour was strikingly similar. Dashiva treated Rand like an inferior (mainly in body language), as did Taim. and what better way to get df Asha'man than have an incamp recruiting agent? (Hey, Mr M'hael, I'd like to join the BLACK Tower if you get my drift...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 10:26:57
subject: <b>Ooh I like this</b>
body:
Good find.  I think it's very plausible, and has a much better shot than any other tower sisters that have been mentioned yet, even though we know very little about her.  I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 10:48:16
subject: <b>I like it too.</b>
body:
Nicely done.  Very well reasoned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 11:59:50
subject: <b>very sharp mind</b>
body:
to have noticed that persons omission.  you have done v well and will be awaiting her dramatic unveilment.  unveiling?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 13:10:11
subject: <b>Lack of evidence is not convincing ...</b>
body:
While your premise might be true, I find the argument based on a <b>lack</b> of a mention by RJ to be unconvincing.  I see no compelling reason why Alviarin, or RJ, would not name the Mesaana character - after all, she does not know who Mesaana <b>IS</b>, only that she is (sometimes) present in the Tower.<br /><br />It makes more sense to me that Juilaine is simply regarded as unimportant.<br /><br />All this <b>does not</b> mean that she <b>cannot</b> be Mesaana, only that this arguement does not convince me that she <b>is</b> Mesaana.<br /><br />-Pathfinder.


created: 2005-08-23 13:40:10
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Although I think the evidence isn't very strong, I think the idea is original and plausible. Knowing Mesaana's history, its stands to reason that she would choose Brown Ajah.<br /><br />However, it is wise to remember that being a Sitter is a job which attracts a lot of attention - which Mesaana would try and avoid. The only option for Mesaana was to disguise herself as the real Julaine Madome - and kill the real woman. She would also need most of her knowledge regarding the Brown Ajah. As Sitter she would be expected to be familiar with all their ways and the majority of the Sisters - a dangerous position to employ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 15:29:45
subject: <b>I like the theory...</b>
body:
But I don't think you're right.<br /><br />A newly raised Sitter would be a difficult role for Mesaana to fall into. Specifically because there is the 'new Sitter' pattern present both in the WT and with the rebels. This appears to be a conspiracy by the Ajah heads to assure a smooth and nonviolent transition back into a whole WT.<br /><br />Basically, I'm saying that the new sitters were given their jobs by the heads of their ajahs. No ajah head would appoint an unknown or unfamiliar person - so it would be very hard for Mesaana to fulfill this role (even if she were a professional actress). As sidious says, this is just too much attention for Mesaana - she needs to be masquerading as someone who is not known well by anyone else, someone who is more easily overlooked.<br /><br />On the subject of her knowing so much - I suspect that there is a way to eavesdrop with the OP that is more sophisticated than the Moiraine method. It's quite possible that there is an eavesdropping ter'angreal or ward that Mesaana has in place in the Amyrlin's study that allows for her to listen in at her liesure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-23 18:52:05
subject: <b>The problem with this...</b>
body:
Is that the new, unusually young sitters are all being appointed by the Ajah heads (even the Brown Sitters, who it seems are usually appointed by the Brown Council), and according to Alviarin, none of the five Ajah heads who are still in the WT are BA.  Mesaana is as much in the dark as we are when it comes to the Ajah heads--that's why she asks Alviarin to gather intel about them in TPoD.  Don't you think she'd know something of their plans if she was one of the young Sitters that they hand picked? <br />I agree that Mesaana is probably a Brown and probably someone who has been seen in Elaida's study at least once, but Danelle also fits these requirements AND played a role in the coup AND is described as dreamy and blue-eyed, two descriptors that have been applied to Mesaana.


created: 2005-08-23 21:11:38
subject: <b>A fault</b>
body:
I see a major fault in your theory.<br /><br />In particular, you use the quote &quot;She might well have been there by herself because she simply did not believe she needed any assistance from the other White Sitters.&quot; as proof that there was only one white sitter in the room.<br /><br />I take the opposite position. I think it proves that at least one other white sitter is in the room. Read it carefully. 'She might well have been there by herself' can be interpretted as noone but Ferane and Elaida, but with the rest of the sentence, it is made clear that the 'there by herself' refers to white sitters, and the fact that it says 'might well have been' makes it clear that she is not the only one there.<br /><br />It is clear that there is another white sitter in the room. Given that the two other white sitters are Seaine and 'Velina', and Seaine is with the Black Ajah hunters, who already have three representatives. Therefore, Velina is the most likely candidate. That does not mean anything, of course, except that either RJ forgot to mention her, or she was not noteworthy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-24 08:16:30
subject: <b>Responses to comments</b>
body:
Hi.  Thanks for posting comments.  This is my first theory, and it was nice that everyone was cordial even when you don't agree with me.<br /><br />Ok, so I do agree with some of the posts here in that the evidence is tenuous.  If the missing Sitter hadn't been Brown, I would have ignored it.  The fact that she is Brown is interesting in light of all the other clues pointing to Mesaana being a Brown Sister.<br /><br />The biggest problem with all the &quot;Mesaana posing as Aes Sedai&quot; theories is that it's hard to imagine someone taking over someone else's identity.  You would need to know everything about them, right?  I'm starting to think the answer is no.  Certainly the sister can't have many close friends, and definitely not a warder.  But what if the sister is only acquainted with people?  Take this analogy:  you're in college, living in the dorms.  You're friendly with your neighbors, but not friends.  One of them starts acting different.  This person doesn't know where the student union is, they talk funny, dress funny, etc.  Do you presume the person is possessed by the devil, and the devil is trying to take over the dormitory?  No.  You think, &quot;Huh, that's weird.&quot;  And then you forget about it.  Because you KNOW that that can't happen.  I think with how close-minded we've seen Aes Sedai behave, it's even more true for them.  This point is true for all the other theories as well (Danelle, Tarna, Silviana).<br /><br />As for Mesaana not wanting to be in the limelight, I agree.  So if she wants to be a Sitter, say, because she doesn't trust Alviarin and wants to know what goes on in the Hall (they do ward against eavesdropping sometimes), it would make sense for her to be a junior Sitter.  It's apparent that something is keeping her busy, otherwise she would never have taught Alviarin to travel.  Perhaps it's her duties as a Sitter?<br /><br />The Young Sitter question is problematic.  I don't think the Ajah Heads would have told the young Sitters why they were chosen, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a secret.  But imagine this scenario:  You're Mesaana.  You need to infiltrate the Tower.  Who are you going to be?  Are you going to be someone who's well known, or are you going to pick a relative unknown, someone young, maybe quiet?  Probably.  You watch the Aes Sedai for a while, and pick your target.  You torture Juilaine to learn as much about her as you can, kill her, and take over her identity (talk about identity theft!).  After a while, you've acclimated to your environment and decide to take on a bigger role, and there are two Sitter spots available.  So you perform a weak compulsion on Jesse Bilal to name you a Sitter.  Jesse has to name someone, and someone young (Although Mesaana doesn't know this), so why not you?  We know from Verin that if the compelled person has a reason for doing what you suggest, it's easier for them to do.  This is similar to something we've seen before, when the Seanchan Empress named Anath as Tuon's Truthsayer, even though there was a back-up Truthsayer waiting in the ranks.  So it may be coincidence that Mesaana's identity matches the trend of the new Sitters.<br /><br />As for the number of white Sitters, if the sentence read, &quot;She might AS well have been there by herself because she simply did not believe she needed any assistance from the other White Sitter(singular),&quot; I would agree with you.  But you need both changes to interpret it the way you have.  <br /><br />Thanks for reading!<br />


created: 2005-08-24 10:03:31
subject: <b>To little to start a theory</b>
body:
You start all tour theory on this &quot;more than half the sitters were present&quot; thing wich I believe is quite a stretch to saying that there MUST be one more. My guess is that Alviarin didn't count the sitters present one by one to say &quot;more than one&quot; else the exact number would have been laid out for us to see. So ti just feels like there are more than half the sitters present, but why not just 9 ? or why not 12 or 13 fot that matter ? While the rest of the thory is sound and Messaana could very well be impersonating your brown sitter, the start is too much of a stratch for my taste, sorry.


created: 2005-08-24 14:30:38
subject: <b>Yes but no</b>
body:
I agree that she is impersonating a Brown, but I don't think it's Juilaine, I think it's Danelle. I don't really have any good evidence for it, save for two points. One, Danelle is mentioned as having 'no friends even within the Brown', by Alviarin. It would be easy to impersonate her, then, with no one to notice slip-ups or mysterious absences. And secondly, she is described as 'dreamy'. So is Mesaana, in 'The World of the Wheel of Time' book.<br /><br />All in all it proves nothing, but there's more evidence for Danelle than there is for Juilaine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- Order burns to clear his path --</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-24 17:31:37
subject: <b>Has RJ ever commented on...</b>
body:
whether or not it is possible to mask a portion of your channelling capabilities?  If not, Mesaana would clearly be the strongest channeler in the Tower, regardless of who she was impersonating.  From there we could infer that she would NEED to hide as a non-channeler.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;This nagging malaise feels like a job.  But no boss ever pays you to lay there and think how to die.  Tears start to well in your eyes.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-24 19:50:25
subject: <b>it has been said that you can disguise your strength in the power</b>
body:
so that you appear weaker, i know that RJ has said this somewhere. whether this is because you're only showing so much of yourself, rather like showing only half of your face, which might explain why then a person cannot make themselves appear stronger<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-26 06:57:15
subject: <b>nice theory but i can't agree</b>
body:
it would be virtually impossible to pose as a sitter. They are well known, individuals with plenty of time in the limelight, too much so for someone to impersonate them without leaving some deadly errors. You have to remember, even with only 300 or so aes sedai in the tower atm, the sitters are still in the most prominent 30 of that group.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-27 03:31:32
subject: <b>I think this theory is very convincing</b>
body:
The fact that Mesaana already knew about the happenings inside the Amyrlin Seat's study when only a few people had seen Alviarin adds weight to this possibility. Interestinly enough, only Browns seem to have been in the picture when Alviarin returned through the Library. Why would Rj pick the library? Maybe he is letting only those with very observant eyes make a note of that. Good job.


created: 2005-09-07 21:34:27
subject: <b>Assuming Mesaana is posing as a Sitter...</b>
body:
...then why, when she is unmasked by Shaidar Haran, does her face look, &quot;tantalizingly familiar&quot; to Alviarin?  When Haran did his little anti-One Power mojo, the dark and all the rest of Mesaana's weaves were cut/removed/negated.  When this happened, Alviarin thought she recognized Mesaana, at least a bit.  Unless Mesaana just happens to resemble the hell out of whatever Sitter she replaced, I doubt this. I still think there is something simpler we are missing--a servant, an aide, something else besides an AS.  They have too many ties to people for someone to be able to replace them AND resemble them when Illusion is removed.


created: 2005-09-18 17:24:41
subject: <b>Agree, but uncertain</b>
body:
I think this is an intriguing theory, if supported largely by circumstantial evidence.  I've had the growing sense that Danelle is as much a red herring as Mesaana as Taim was as Demandred (quite possible at first thought, then buckling under the counter-evidence).  Though, the counter-evidence for Danelle is not nearly as devasting. <br /><br />Regardless, I think that we needn't assume that if Mesaana is presently masquerading as Juilaine that she *always* masqueraded as Juilaine.  In fact, it's probably not the case - she may well have started out as a servant, until Alviarin was able to get her the info on the Ajah heads.<br /><br />Anyway, remember that Mesaana is a known (former) ally of Semirhage.  Semirhage tortured Cabriana to death, and in the process learned her life story (passing this info on to Halima - as an aside, when Halima boasted to Egwene that she knew Cabriana's life story, I felt just a wee bit nauseated).  So it's possible Mesaana used her old pal's techniques a bit to pry Juilaine's life story from her before killing her and taking her place.<br /><br />We will have to see...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-05 19:23:49
subject: <b>What's happened to Danelle?</b>
body:
Can someone please tell me this, as I've obviously missed it.  Danelle was a sitter for the Brown, but the Theory states that the current three are Shevan, Saerin, and Juilaine.  Juilaine replaced whichever one went to Salidar, but that wasn't Danelle, and it sounds like the other two have been sitters for some time. Is this a RJ slip, or am I missing something?


created: 2005-08-30 12:16:15
subject: <b>Wow, you really outdid yourself on this one..</b>
body:
One of the better theories on the entire site<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 14:31:39
subject: <b>Math?</b>
body:
I'm not sure about some of the math, you state that 5% of the combined power of individuals is lost when they link, but continually in your calculations you just remove 5 points.<br /><br />For instance shouldnt 3 average Aes sedai (20+20+20)=60..  -5%  would be 57, your calculations are showing 55...   Perhaps I am misunderstanding something.


created: 2005-08-30 14:53:58
subject: <b>Excellent so far....</b>
body:
one minor detail though. You stated &quot;Moghedien unravels the shield by working free the six soft points which make up the shield&quot;. That I don't know. When Nynaeve was teaching Sea Folk to shield she describes the feeling of the shield formed by Talaan - one soft point. Also, we know what Rand was feeling - six soft and/or hard points. I think points represent the people and soft/hard represents were they tied the weave or not.


created: 2005-08-30 16:57:03
subject: <b>Good so far</b>
body:
But i think you've forgotten something about linking, its not just extra power, but accuracy and, we can assume, speed of weaving, thus accounting for the Damer Flinn battle.<br />I'd rank him slightly lower than you have, but its your theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 19:19:28
subject: <b>Many Comments</b>
body:
Didn&#180;t read it all so far, so i&#180;m commenting only the beginning.<br />If Asmodeans comment about strength in women and men is true (equaling body strength to strength in the power) then i think  that your scale places female channelers too low. Another explanation would be that the overall lvl of aes sedai channelers dropped since the AOL (considering that only very few seafolk or aiel channelers reach egwenes strength this might be difficult to prove).<br /><br />Another point is your placing of rand, ishmael and LTT at 100. Only a feeling, but i don&#180;t think their 100 is as strong as it gets (i favor taim being above them, maybe logain too. but this is my preference).<br /><br />Third. Asmodean and Rand matching while fighting in rhuidean would only mean that if two channelers try to draw trough the Choedan Kal the power is equally divided. <br /><br />If sa'angreal work multiplicative even the smallest difference in the channelers strength would mean a huge difference in the drawn power and either rand or asmo would win instantly. <br />   rand strength <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" />4.99) * 100000<br /> - asmo strength <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" />5.00) * 100000<br />--------------------------------<br /> = 1000 ==&gt; asmo would have &quot;additional 10 channelers&quot; on his side<br /><br />If not multiplicative, then<br />rand strength(75) + huge amount = huge amount<br />asmo strangth<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" />5) + huge amount = huge amount<br />would be seen (from Rands POV) as equal<br /><br />Last point. Ismael being placed at the top and revived and unafraid to approach rand doesn&#180;t mean he is strong. Ever since he &quot;commanded&quot; the DO in the Dragon Reborn to help him i do not believe him to be a mere servant. Besides, he&#180;s loony.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 19:20:08
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
But I think after the books are done you should go back and finish the male chanellers with their full strengths.


created: 2005-08-30 19:22:43
subject: <b>Error</b>
body:
the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> in the prior comment is actually a<br />( and a 8<br />(preview functionality is great if used correctly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-31 02:46:24
subject: <b>Ver y thorough but . . .</b>
body:
As you say yourself there is a lot of speculation involved here, but the problem I have with it really is that you seem to take everything any of the Forsaken say literally. I think it likely that a lot of what they say is bluff and deliberate misinformation.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-31 08:07:54
subject: <b>multiple weaves</b>
body:
I question the math used in your early example of Rand shielding Aviendha and Egwene while weaving multiple other flows<br /><br />in New Spring, Moirane explains the difficulty of this task.  She states that, Weaving two flows is more than twice as difficult as one, and three more than twice as difficult as two.<br /><br />if we assume that the difficulty she is referring to here is governed at least in part by strength, then Rand's feat is magnified many times over<br /><br /><br />as you yourself predicted, I find many small flaws in the theory, yet nothing so far that would actually change the rankings<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The past is buried.  Let it rest in peace.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-31 20:03:44
subject: <b>Whoa!!</b>
body:
You have entirely too much time on your hands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-02 07:34:14
subject: <b>woooaaahh</b>
body:
nice job, but i have to ask, how long did this take!?!?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-02 16:16:14
subject: <b>Some unaccounted evidence. Parts of the theory need revising.</b>
body:
I read all 70 pages of your theory on Wednesday. Very well thought out and most of the evidence is solid in my opinion. I would like to congratulate you for the strong work!<br /><br />I don't find anything that I can use to directly contradict your theory, however, I have found some indirect evidence that leads me to believe that the 66% rule you talk about might not be accurate. Also, I believe you have misplaced 1 or more of the 4 following women: Alivia, Cyndane, Nynaeve, and Elayne. <br /><br />1. See the section about the turtle brooch angreal. http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=136<br /><br />2. You have Nynaeve's strength in book 7 listed at &lt;63 and in books 8 to 9 &lt;65. http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1331&amp;Category=Week Can we agree then that you believe Nynaeve's strength when Elayne finds the Turtle Brooch Angreal is at least somewhere above 60 since they find the brooch in book 8? <br /><br />3. You have Elayne's strength in book 6 listed at 34 and you have her final strength potential listed as 40. Let's assume then that by book 8 Elayne has at least 35 strength in the one power. http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1332&amp;Category=Week<br /><br />When Elayne finds the turtle brooch she draws saidar and is amazed at the amount of power she can hold. She says she can channel twice as much as Nynaeve. There are two ways to interpret this. <br />A) She can channel twice as much as Nynaeve could at this moment unaided. <br />B) She can channel twice as much as Nynaeve's potential. <br /><br />In book 8 you have Nynaeve listed at a minimum of 60 strength which means Elayne, using the turtle brooch, could channel 120 (if A is the way to interpret her comment) or 130 (if B is the way to interpret her comment). <br /><br />If Elayne has a potential of 40 and you believe her to be somewhere around 35 at book 8, then using the turtle brooch allows Elayne to channel an extra 85 units of power (scenario A) or an extra 95 units of power (scenario B) .<br /><br />Elayne says that the turtle is not the strongest of the angreal. The Golden Bracelet and rings Angreal was the strongest of the three angreal found by Elayne. We don't know exactly how much power it adds but it adds more than the turtle.<br /><br />Now I bring us to Alivia vs. Cyndane at the end of Winter's Heart. Cyndane realizes after she starts fighting Alivia that Alivia has an angreal because Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was before she lost some of her power.<br /><br />We can only speculate about how many units of power boost you get by using the Golden Bracelet and rings Angreal that Alivia uses, but we know it is more than the turtle brooch. Therefore, Alivia gained at least an extra 85+ units of power, if we use your scale. But you have Alivia and Cyndane tied at 75 units of power unaided. <br /><br />So now you should see a problem or two. <br /><br />First Problem: Cyndane had no angreal. Alivia did. Alivia (using your scale) would have had 160+ units of power against Cyndane's 75. There's obviously something wrong with your placement of these characters and their relative strengths.<br /><br />Second Problem: 66% rule. Using your scale, I believe I've shown that Alivia would be more than twice as powerful as Cyndane using the Golden Bracelet and rings Angreal. By your scale Alivia = 160+ units vs. Cyndane = 75 units. 160/75 = 213.33% Let me freaking repeat that. Alivia by your scale had to be 213.33% stronger than Cyndane. That's assuming the Golden Bracelet and rings Angreal is as strong as the turtle brooch and we all know it is stronger than that. So in reality, it would be safe to assume Alivia was actually much stronger than this. Alivia throws weaves at Cyndane and Cyndane cuts the weaves. Cyndane would not be able to resist anything that Alivia did if your scale is correct. <br /><br />The only way your 66% rule could still be correct is if RJ made a big mistake in strength calculation when figuring out how strong the angreal made Alivia vs. Cyndane. I doubt this though. <br /><br />Third Problem: You are using gateway size to determine strength in the one power when comparing men and women's gateways. I believe this okay when comparing same gender, but not female vs. male gateway size. The reason is that males and females make gateways using entirely different concepts and different weaves. Remember when Moghedien freaks out when Egwene mentions how Rand makes a gateway and asks if females can make one like that. You have Elayne 10 units below people like Torval, Gedwyn, and Rochaid and the majority of your evidence is the size of the gateway they make. Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha could easily be much higher than 40. <br /><br />I do like the quotes and evidence you gave, but there are some obvious points that are not accounted for.<br /><br />cdaulepp<br />


created: 2005-09-03 00:52:42
subject: <b>Nnnnnnnno</b>
body:
I don't believe that something like this can be so exact and precise and whatnot. BTW you have a few mathematical mistakes and mistakes about story points wrong...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-03 09:35:20
subject: <b>Nnnnnnno please tell me which story points I have wrong and which math errors</b>
body:
If I made some mistakes (which I may have done) please let me know where so I can fix them.<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-03 14:55:35
subject: <b>Ishamael is weaker</b>
body:
In the prologue of TEOTW Ishamael mentions being defeated by Lews Therin at Paaran Disen and in the Hall of Servants. So I think that Ishamael should be put at 98 on the list because he probobly knows as much about the Power as Lews Therin so their is no difference in knowledge or skill, only strength.


created: 2005-09-03 17:12:10
subject: <b>r</b>
body:
Actually we don't know why Ishy lost in there. For instance LTT could have been saved by AoL version of redshirt(s).


created: 2005-09-04 10:55:56
subject: <b>Very very good</b>
body:
However, one thing annoys me. In the start when you talk about Rand thinking he can do three Aes Sedai at once, and in general when talking about added strenghts, you add the strenghts together. That's not correct. Two women in a circle are not as strong as their single strengths added.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-04 17:31:06
subject: <b>that is amazing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I bow to your dedication.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 13:28:52
subject: <b>Now I see the connections...</b>
body:
to the discussions that took place on the MB. Sorry it took me so long to get around to perusing this and adding my thoughts, but I wanted to have sufficient time to read it over thoroughly before critiquing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'd like to congratulate you for such a magnificently researched and well written theory. The sheer scope of quotes accumulated is awe-inspiring! It's obvious that an enormous amount of time and effort went into this project, and I applaud you and those that contributed. I also realize that there is no way that everything can be 100% accurate, since you are sometimes left dealing with unknowns and other issues like contradictory statements. So, keeping that in mind....<br /><br />First off, I'd like to start with Aginor/Dashiva. His strength surely has to be one of the hardest to rate accurately. From the beginning in the Black Tower, he had to feign ignorance as well as keep his power hidden. Then later, given his placement next to Rand as one of his asha'man, he had to also be careful to not show all his strength, IMO. (Rand's wariness of the Asha'man would be a contributing factor for this, if nothing else.)<br /><br />For myself, I always took Aginor's ranking of second-strongest Forsaken for granted, since it had been stated in several places. However, your explanation of later additions like Demmy and Sammy could well be true, too. However, the fear-factor you use to place him below them could be called into question. Demmy and Sammy were soldiers, Aginor a scientist. (He even makes reference to this in With the Choedan Kal) So, their respective skills lie in other areas, and this may be the reason he is deferring in confrontations. (I would compare it to a 300 pound couch-potatoe vs. a 300 pound pro-wrestler. They may be comparable in size, but there would be no doubt about a winner in a head-to-head battle.) Still, putting him where you did is a fair guess, but perhaps a tad low.<br /><br />Placing Lanfear at 85 on your scale seems the one that stands out the most as being questionable. The debate on the MB concerning when Lanfear picked up the angreal from the wagon and started using it in her fight with Rand now becomes clear. (I obviously hadn't read your theory then.) Several factors could be critical to your estimates causing them to be in error:<br /><br />For one, when she stated that she wouldn't launch a frontal assault against superior forces, (in reference to Rand), she wasn't lying. Rand was holding the access key to the Choedan Kal and he and Asmo had just changed the shape of the landscape around Rhuidean while using it. So, she was being deadly serious and truthful when she said it. Rahvin takes this to mean it's an admission that Rand was stronger than her and could overwhelm her face-to-face. She let's him and the others believe this since it suits her plans, but isn't necessarily the case.<br /><br />After rereading the fight scene at the docks, I am led to believe that they both fought without the angreals at first, then she picked up the bracelet and started using it, followed shortly thereafter by Rand using his to counter it. The real problems for Rand was his inexperience at fighting off weaves he couldn't see, her attempts to shield him which left him almost cut off from the source and ebbed his power, and his refusal to listen to LTT's voice telling him how to defeat her because of his disinclination to kill a woman.<br /><br />Also, Asmo's quote: &quot;Some women have stronger arms than some men, but in general it is the other way around. The same holds with strength in the Power, and in about the same proportion.&quot; tFoH, Pale Shadows. <br /><br />I have always understood this to mean that in general, men are stronger. But what about someone like Lanfear that is &quot;as strong as a woman can be&quot;? As an analogy, she would be a world-class weightlifter, and would be stronger than almost all of the men on the planet. The exceptions would be world-class male weightlifters, who would be stronger yet. (or possibly some of the pro-athletes on steroids. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) To my line of thinking, she should at least be in the 90's on your scale.<br /><br />And from Dragon-con:<br /><b>A question about the Forsaken. It is said they have varying levels of strength in the one Power. Do you know where they rank?</b><br /><b>RJ: &quot;Yes.&quot;</b><br /><b>I get the impression that Asmodean is weaker than Lanfear even before he was shielded. How much weaker etc.</b><br /><b>RJ: &quot;RAFO. I don&#8217;t go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are. Even when you are inside their heads. Don&#8217;t take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.&quot;</b><br /><br />This information of course came out after your theory was posted, but it does weaken some of your arguments, too. Especially in relation to Rahvin and/or Sammael surmising they were strong enough to match up with Rand while thinking that Lanfear couldn't.<br /><br />Even with my minor disagreements, I still like what I have seen so far. Congrats, and thumbs up! (I'll have to have more time before I can look in on the second part.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-16 02:35:16
subject: <b>Light in the Night...</b>
body:
RJ's comments were made specifically in relation to a question posed about Lanfear's strength compared to Asmodean's.<br /><br />The assumption was that because Lanfear and all the other Forsaken looked down on Asmodean, Lanfear seemed to be stronger than Asmo even before he was shielded.<br /><br />It was to dispell this notion that RJ stated the Forsaken's opinions should not always be trusted. Of course, it applies in general as well. So far from proving that Lanfear is stronger than we have suggested, RJ's comments could be taken to mean that Asmodean is stronger than many people think. As strong as Lanfear, perhaps.<br /><br />I find it curious that people always jump to Rahvin's comment regarding Lanfear, when RJ makes comments about the Forsaken's lack of reliability. In truth, it is far more likely that RJ was referring to Mesaana's reluctance to admit that Semirhage is stronger than herself, or to Lanfear's casual dismissal of Asmodean's ability.<br /><br />In fact, Rahvin's comments in FoH are the most reliable of all the above, since he grudgingly admits that Sammael could match his feat of overpowering Lanfear. So, far from trying to make his own strength sound unique, Rahvin is making a point about the male/female strenth disparity.<br /><br />In fact, FoH could be considered  the Male strength superiority fact book. No less than 3 distinct references to this issue are made by RJ during the course of this book.<br /><br />It starts with Rahvin's comment in the Prologue, where he states that BOTH Sammael and himself could overwhelm Lanfear. This comment is surprising, since no intimation of this has appeared in the prededing four books. But actually, it is a perfect preperation for Asmodean's teachings in the first chapter where he and Rand appear together. Suddenly Rahvin's comments make perfect sense.<br /><br />And then, in the last chapter, Moghedien's statements to Nynaeve about men being MUCH stronger, fall into place as well.<br /><br />RJ clearly was trying to make a point during this book. A change of course was being announced, or a long hidden secret was revealed to his readers.<br /><br />As for Aginor vs. Sammael, Aginor's fear is not the only source for his placement. Eben's description of Sammael's strength, in the same chapter as Rand's description of Aginor's strength, is an important contributor to Aginor's strength allocation. Aginor's reactions only add to this conclusion.<br /><br />


created: 2005-09-16 08:41:47
subject: <b>I didn't see Moggy say exactly that....</b>
body:
She does say:<br /><b>&quot;Why will you not understand what I tell you? Even if they had only dreamed themselves here, either would be stronger than we.&quot;</b><br /><br />She knows her own strength, and Nynaeve is her equal. She's known Rahvin for a long time, and that he is stronger than her. The fact Rand is still alive going against Rahvin probably leads her to conclude he must be close to the same strength, else he would probably be dead by now.<br /><br />also:<br /><b>&quot;Here in the flesh, they could crush us without blinking. In the flesh they can draw saidin more deeply than we can draw saidar dreaming.&quot;</b><br /><br />It appears Moggy's and Nynaeve's inferior strength position is further complicated by the fact that they are dreaming while in TAR, while Rahvin and Rand are there in the flesh. Interesting to note the distinction of being able to draw more deeply on the Power while in TAR in the flesh than dreaming. <br /><br />I am not disagreeing with the fact that Rahvin, Sammael and Demandred are stronger than Lanfear. They are among the male heavy-weights of OP users. Rather, I would say that those three probably should be moved higher on your scale; 99, 98 97 or so, especially given that Demmy was always said to be just behind LTT. It just seems to me that Lanfear most likely deserves to be in the 90th percentile range, with the other &quot;A&quot; team players. Putting her in the 80's range lowers her to a second-string &quot;B&quot; teamer, IMO.<br /><br />And, as I said for Aginor, his placement seemed fair enough. His strength is hard to judge because he could/should be holding something back. Rand doesn't sense any sign of him straining for his max, while Eben would have been too far away to sense if Sammael was.<br /><br />As for RJ's statement, he seems to be saying that all of the Forsaken lie, even to themselves, when it comes down to the issue of strength. In their arrogance and pride, none of them can face being deemed &quot;less&quot; or &quot;weaker&quot; than one of their peers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 14:00:02
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
Thanks for the compliments. I am greatly honoured that you of all people took the time to read my theory. Your opinions carry a lot of weight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Regarding <i>Aginor</i>, I agree that there is difficulty rating him. However, Rand says that he can tell when men are holding their maximum because of a sense of strain. Therefore for him to say that Dashiva and the rest were holding their maximum must imply some sort of strain - or else he would not have mentioned it. A few lines later Sammael is implied to be stronger. As you say, I don't think the difference between those top males was huge, but then this theory is about scale <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Another problem is the clear discrepancy between Aginor and Dashiva. Imagine we never encountered Dashiva, our EoTW glimpse of Aginor would be enough to certainly seal his place at 98 behind Lews Therin. He is portrayed as a physically powerful and formidible man who once matched Lews Therin. These are all problems to be considered.<br /><br />As I said, <i>Lanfear</i> was extremely difficult to place. In fact, Shannow and I debated her strength for several months. I placed her at 99, and he placed her at 80 - so we found some middle ground. I don't believe that 85 moves her into the B category thread because she is still sitting with the rest of the male Forsaken, and is 15 strength relevant in Forsaken battles? Possibly. Possibly not.<br /><br />I would still not be surprised if her strength was 99 - even though Shannow feels differently. I believe there is evidence enough for Lanfear to placed here, but the evidence against it lies in TFOH where the obvious difference between male and female strength is introduced. I am still vexed about the inevitable question ... men are considerably stronger, but does that mean a woman cannot equal 99? The answer to this is exceedingly important but RJ is reluctant to give it. Therefore we have to rely on what we have ... blatant statements by male Forsaken who assumed they could overwhelm her, despite the fact that we know that even stronger males existed. 85 is already a very high place to put her because she far outclasses even Graendal. I'm willing to keep an open mind about the whole issue. The question could be answered if Cyndane reveals which of the Forsaken she is willing to face and which not.<br /><br />The angreal debate was great and I think it is open to interpretation. I can't decide whether Lanfear could shield Rand unaided. We know that Moghedien and Nynaeve did, and Nynaeve and Talaan - but this is a different ball game.<br /><br />As for Moghedien's statement, I think you left the pertinent part out in that chapter where Nynaeve mentions &quot;Moghedien insisted men were stronger. It was unfair that men had muscles and strength in the Power too&quot; I like this quote because it clearly shows that the gap occurs even at Forsaken level. Your other quotes are relevant - you are far weaker when Dreamwalking than when in the Flesh.<br /><br />Thanks for the comments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I'll look out for your opinions on part 2.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-06 01:58:00
subject: <b>Scale Issue</b>
body:
My main problem with your Scale is the probable miscalculation of linking.<br /><br />In TDR, Chapter 18, when Matt is having his link to the Shadar Logoth dagger broken, the following Aes Sedai are present: Siuan (25), Leane (24), Sheriam (24), Anaiya (23), Verin (21), Alanna (21), Sarafelle (?), as well as three other unmentioned Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Based upon your projected linking loss (5%), and assuming that the four Aes Sedai who do not have a ranking on your scale have at least an average Aes Sedai Power Level (20), the following would be the estimated total power being channeled:<br /><br />25 + 22.8 + 22.8 + 21.85 + 19.95 + 19.95 + 19 + 19 + 19 + 19<br /><br />= 25 + 183.35<br /><br />Siaun does not lose 5%, because she is the focus of the circle. Not only that, but Siuan is also using the most powerful sa'angreal that the Tower possesses, which could increase the amount of the OP she is able to channel many times over.<br /><br />This does not reconcile with when Nynaeve (65) says in the same scene, &quot;'I do not think I could channel half that much of the Power.' She paused as if she had just heard her own words--that she could channel half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa'angreal--and her voice grew even fainter.&quot;<br /><br />Half of what those ten Aes Sedai are channeling is at least 12.5(<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> + 91.675 (where x is the multiple that the sa'angreal will increase the amount of OP Siuan can handle) which would place Nynaeve well above Rand or Ishamael.<br /><br />I do not know if the problem with this is in accurately stating how much of a reduction linking causes, or whether those Aes Sedai and Nynaeve are drastically misplaced on the scale, but either way it causes me to doubt the scale.<br /><br />But I do commend you on spending so much time and effort creating it.


created: 2008-12-16 17:00:22
subject: <b>Hmm not really agreeing, but well thought out</b>
body:
My main issue is that 2 women linked (making sure to take in the discount required as they cant use all of their strength in a circle) does not equal your average man on your scale as asmodean clearly states.<br /><br />Youve under played women hugely i feel. There is a difference, but no where near this dramatic. Suiane is accounted fairly strong. Not one of the amazing ones admittedly but still....<br /><br />But uve put her below the average man.


created: 2005-08-30 09:22:26
subject: <b>Well thought out</b>
body:
Good to have a comprehensive list of strengths. Am I right in thinking when people link, their &quot;scores&quot; aren't added together. So if you had a 25 and 40, linked would not be 65.... Would be more like 50. Remember reading that somewhere....<br />Good though.


created: 2005-08-30 10:27:44
subject: <b>Faolain?</b>
body:
In the section &quot;Absolute Holds &amp; Successful Shielding&quot; I think you meant to say Ispan and Falion, not Faolain (one of the salidar Accepted made a full AS by Egwene).<br /><br />Other than that, great theory.  I really like having numbers to use, even if there are exceptions due to unusual Talents.<br /><br />Kulgan Noblesse


created: 2005-08-30 10:50:26
subject: <b>Awesome work.</b>
body:
It was well written, and easier to understand than the FAQ. I also liked to see all the reasoning. The exceptions were acceptable. I think that this is pretty well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 11:46:55
subject: <b>Ahhh...I've been waiting for this theory...</b>
body:
Great job to all involved...this is the most comprehensive discussion I've seen to date. I think you've done a huge amount of work, and it has paid off with a real quality theory.<br /><br />Also, I have very few real comments (but a few none the less <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />). <br /><br />First, does your 100 point scale easily compress into a 21-scale that RJ reputedly uses? I don't think it's necessary, but if RJ does indeed use only a 21-point scale for all channelers, it is an important piece.<br /><br />Anyway, a few additional comments:<br /><br />-The often quoted statement from Rahvin to Lanfear and containing mention of Sammael is correctly used as an important piece of info. Lanfear's statement (just prior to it?) could be very manipulative, and I would caution against putting much weight to it. Also, RJ's recent answer at Comicon was never directly mentioned - it should be. I know that it only adds confusiton to the issue (which appears to be his goal), but it is important to note that Rahvin may arrogant enough to be misleading in his own thoughts.<br /><br />-At one point (I think in Asmodean's section) you mention there being 6 points to a shield. I disagree - the six points in the case of Rand's escape correspond to the 6 channelers holding the shield (either active or inactive). That is one 'point' per channeler - so one person holding a shield would have either 1 or no points. This may mean that in a case where shield strength is equal, one held by two or more people is easier to break than one held by only one person.<br /><br />-Someryn seems to be stronger to me than where you placed her. I would place her closer to Graendal's strength, possibly even equal. I consider the small reaction that Graendal gives to very significant coming from someone who has repeatedly shown she is in control of herself. I think that ultimately Graendal is not too concerned because of the relative ignorance of Someryn.<br /><br />-Ok, my biggest point...Asmodean. I'm sure you expected I'd argue his placement - I always do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. I think that he is quite a bit lower - I'd score him 60-70 on your scale. The casual way that pretty much every forsaken dismisses him implies that he is not only the weakest male forsaken, but one of the weaker of all the surviving forsaken. The repeated comparison to Moghedien show to me that his strength is more comparable to her than anyone else (though I do think he is most likely stronger than she is). Simply, if Moghedien could survive at her strength, so could Asmodean at his weakened strength. <br /><br />The use of Rand and Asmodean's struggle with the Choden Kal is difficult. We really can't know for sure where Rand stood at that time, especially considering that the stuggle itself likely increased his strength. Considering that Egwene and Elaine were likely no where near their abosolute stength in their earlier comparisons to Rand (even while stronger than Moiraine), there is still room for Asmodean to be in the 60-70 range and no need for him to be placed at 80 and stronger than the likes of Semirhage. <br /><br />Semirhage is another point...Asmodean seems to have a huge fear of her, and he repeatedly mentions it. Yes, she is an intimidating figure, but if he were stronger than her, he would be able to take comfort in that. Since he is unable to even do that it seems most likely that Asmodean is weaker than Semirhage, and almost certainly no stronger.<br /><br /><br />Well, anyway...again great work (I've already bookmarked this as a favorite theory).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 12:20:34
subject: <b>I agree with Kcf</b>
body:
in that Asmodean may be slightly weaker than you put him.  The other Forsaken dismiss him to readily.  Then again it could be because he was never a good tactitian or the like.  Still an amazing theory.  One of my favorites.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 12:44:44
subject: <b>One additional point on Asmodean...</b>
body:
Also, he is certainly weaker than Graendal - she didn't know he was shielded when she killed him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 13:24:10
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
of course i have disgruntlements of some placements, like asmodean being stronger than cyndane, but i like the reasoning and the way it was laid out<br /><br />excellent job and i applaud the ammount of effort and research put into it...well done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />i'm not even annoyed that i wasn't consulted <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 14:37:28
subject: <b>Math</b>
body:
I commented about the math discrepencies in part 1, it looks like part 2 hasbeen done correctly...  Is there a reason for the difference between the 2 parts?


created: 2005-08-30 15:04:41
subject: <b>Well done!</b>
body:
But I have a question.<br />If Logain is really so far above an average Asha'man why Mishraile wasn't afraid of him?


created: 2005-08-30 16:12:53
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
this is a really impressive theory. Even if some people want to debate a few relative merits I am really impressed with the scope of it all. Awesome! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 17:05:07
subject: <b>Your theory reminded me of something</b>
body:
first off, thumbs up! I Really enjoyed reading this! It must have been a hell of an effort and I give you major props for that! I thought of something while reading your theory that I had scribbled down a few weeks ago.<br /><br />CoT, p. 259, ch. 8 Whirlpools of Color<br /><br />Perrin and company are going through a gateway to the Shaido camp at Malden. First off, something about Grady who made the gateway.<br /><br />He is described as sleepy looking, weary looking, tired, not well rested. Elyas reminds Grady that there isn&#180;t any room for errors and Perrin asks if he is rested enough. Despite this he makes the gateway.<br /><br />Perrin notices the following, when he realizes that the mounted men stay mounted and don&#180;t bend their heads to keep clear of the gateway:<br /><br />&quot;It struck Perrin that the gateway was larger than the first one of Grady&#180;s make that he had passed through. He had had to dismount, then. It was a vague thought, no more important than a fly buzzing.&quot;<br /><br />Why was this gateway larger than the one before? You explained it in your theory as being the jumps in strength that male channelers go through but I don&#180;t think that it is just that.<br /><br />Two weeks lie between Grady&#180;s gateway to Malden and his gateway to So Habor. Within those two weeks the camp has stayed put and the Maidens tried to capture Shaido. During that time Grady and Neald haven&#180;t actually been using the OP that frequently I think.<br />You could argue that they did use the OP often in that time and got stronger but I believe that Perrin&#180;s statement and grady&#180;s state of rest imply more.<br /><br />Grady was far from well rested, in fact he was tired, weary, and pretty much exhausted but nevertheless he wove a gateway which turned out to be larger than the first one Perrin had walked through. Somehow I believe that this is RJ&#180;s way of showing that a channeler&#180;s urgency and determination play a role in the size and location of the gateway. Grady knows how important this gateway is and what depends on it so maybe he concentrates on it more than he usually would.... ok, thinking about it this is pretty much what precision weaving is all about and what you mention, too. Well, I&#180;ve answered my own question. I think precision weaving is important and Grady was doing just that, concentrating only on the gateway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 17:05:36
subject: <b>I read it all.</b>
body:
I read it all. I think that's compliment enough. Anyways, I agree with most of the things, except for the Asmodean part, as I guess most people do. However, you might as well be right, after all, you did the research<br /><br />Great job!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 17:13:09
subject: <b>Gateways</b>
body:
Your comments on Avindaha's Gateway do not do her justice, the reason that she cannot make larger Gateways is because she cannot remember the original weave she used when running from Rand, she is using the weave Egwene puzzled out.<br /><br />On the theory of a Gateway talent, I believe that Rand, Semerige and Demondred (I think those were the two forsaken named by Asmodan) have it strongly, as Asmodan stated that only they could prevent a closing gateway from actually closing.


created: 2005-08-31 15:43:42
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
Oh I might have a few quibbles.  I think that member of the Kin who had a Talent for shieldng shows that shielding as a mmeasure of strength is more complex.<br /><br />I think throughout a little more emphasis on skill should be underlined.<br /><br />I think there is something else going on with AVI, as others ave indicated.  She and Elayne may not even yet have reached their potential.  But the differences between the ways that Aiel make their weaves and that the Aes Sedai learn their weaves is important.  I think there might be a foreshadowing here, but I'm not sure of what.  Avi is trying to remember her old weave--I think it will be important as a plot device.  Also, as an exercise, all those Aes Sedai have been learning Wise One weaves.  Maybe both Wise Ones and A.S. will learn somethiong important, beyond mastering themselves and learning humility, that is.  Avi, also has been taught by W.O.s, Moiraine, Egwene, and Elayne.  Plus Elayne has learned from the W.O.s.  This is not a theory, even.  I just think this may be important in the future.<br /><br />Which, of course, has little to do with your theory/analysis.  Which I thoroughly applaud.<br /><br />It's as much as you can do with the evidence at hand.  It reminds me of historians of the Classical are or late Bronze Age having to construct what happened from scraps of information and archaeological leavings.<br /><br />Really quite good and reasonable, especially as you indicate at every step the degree of reliability of your information and assumptions.  I respect your efforts very much.


created: 2005-08-31 18:27:42
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Cool theory, but I think your use of gateways as a judge of strength is flawed.  As in most everything, there are differing amounts of ability each channeler has to a particular weave.  Consider that Rand thinks in aCoS that many women could make a much longer air bridge than he could despite that there is no woman near as powerful as him.  Or that of all the forsaken only semirhage and demandred could hold someone else's gateway open after the opener had released it.  (asmodean tells rand that after he chases Avienda down)  That sounds like it would take a whole lot of strength, but all that really matters is the channeler's personal skills at holding open gateways.  Considering that, I think that gateways are very poor and unreliable comparisons for channeler strengths.  <br /><br />Also, I don't think you put enough emphasis on the added ability of a linked group to hold a shield on someone.  If you can create more complex weaves and make them faster when linked, it also is logical that you could hold them together better than just your raw combined strenght accounts for.  Perhaps Aes Sedai have always been making a mistake by having six sisters each seperately contribute to one shield on a man.  Maybe if they linked and made one shield it would hold much better.  Just a thought.  <br /><br />cool theory anyways.<br />


created: 2005-08-31 20:04:30
subject: <b>Whoa!! Part 2</b>
body:
See comments for Part 1.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-31 22:15:32
subject: <b>Well Done!</b>
body:
First up, Brilliant Theroy! Worth the 8 months!<br /><br />One thing you should have mentioned is that chanellers have problems forming weaves for something that are different from those that they already know, I cant remember the exact quote, but its near when Egwene has problems learning from the Wise Ones because she already knows how to do weaves of similar functions.<br />This is why Avi has problems forming a gateway at her full potential, it is different from the weave she formed to escase from Rand, which is somewhere in her subconsious.<br /><br />I also want to say that I agree with your placement of Asmodean. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-02 08:35:24
subject: <b>wow!</b>
body:
this is awesome, the sheer level of detail and effort here is mind-bogling! I'm going to sit down and give my eyes a rest now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-02 16:38:30
subject: <b>some good points...</b>
body:
-cdaulepp<br /><br />You make some good points about about some issues with the theory. However, I think that you make some potentially false assumptions. First, you are assuming how an angreal works. We just don't know for sure if it's a constant additave, a fixed multiplier, a non-linear additave or multiplier, etc. There is some evidence on how it works (Sidious actually has done some work), but we don't know for sure.<br /><br />Yet, your numbers are probably more or less correct. What you discount is OP knowledge and skill. Cyndane has the knowledge of the AoL, including the fact that she is one of the top forsaken - basically one of the most powerful and knowledgabe channelers of the AoL, and she has a knack for survival. With the knowledge at her disposal, it is not hard to believe that she was able to defeat Alivia, even if she was only 1/2 or 1/3 as strong. <br /><br />Your point about the gateways is potentially valid - but I think that Sidious properly takes the uncertaintity of gateways into account.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-02 19:00:02
subject: <b>Cyndane couldn`t be so much weaker.</b>
body:
Hello, something is wrong with this reasoning! If Cyndane could defeat twice more powerful Alivia with superior skill, than how Sammael didn`t easily crush Rand or Moghedien Nynaeve?


created: 2005-09-02 21:49:36
subject: <b>kcf here's some math.</b>
body:
First off, I apologize to those who hate the math.  If you don't like math, don't read this post.  It's all about math.  I'm going to prove that angreal are linear and that they cannot be exponential or algorithmic in nature.  <br /><br />I concede that we don't know everything about angreal, but there are only a few types of common functions: logarithmic, exponential, and linear are the most popular.  Furthermore, I will show that angreal must be linear.  <br /><br />We cannot discount Elayne's statement about the Golden Bracelet and rings angreal being more powerful than the turtle brooch.  Not that anyone has disputed this, but if you will recall, Elayne was quite the mathematician.  Remember when she tried to explain to Nynaeve about ter'angreal and absolute matrices.  Nynaeve got lost.  Well, it's obvious that Elayne is very good at math.  All angreal are governed by some type of mathematical function to determine the amount of power the user can handle.  If one angreal is stronger than another, it means that the function for the stronger angreal (if graphed versus the weaker angreal) would have a higher curve.   <br /><br />In mathematics, if you know everything except for one variable you can solve for the missing part.<br /><br />LOGARITHMIC DISCUSSION<br />Let's assume the function for the angreal is logarithmic.  Then we need to know what the angreal will do when the base varies (a different person uses it)  The equation for logarithms is: x = log_b(y)  &quot;read: x equals log base b of y&quot;.  This can also be written as b^x = y &quot;read: b raised to the x power = y&quot;.  <br /><br />b = base (person using the angreal)<br />y = total power able to channel<br />x = logarithmic multiplier (the bonus you get from the angreal)<br /><br />When Elayne is using the turtle brooch we know everything we need to solve for x.  Her base (according to Sidious) is 35 = b and her total power is 120 (twice Nynaeve) = y.  <br /><br />So x = log_35 ( 120 )<br />And x = 1.3465606348.  Now that we know x we can solve to see how much power Alivia will have when she uses the angreal.<br /><br />In Alivia's case we know her base (according to Sidious) is 75.  We know x = 1.3465606348 (we just solved for it) We are solving for y this time.  b^x = y.  So 75^1.34656348 = 334.87.  <br /><br />So if the function used for angreal were algorithmic, then using the turtle brooch Alivia would have almost 335 units of power.  I find it next to impossible that angreal are logarithmic in nature because I've just proven that if the turtle was logarithmic Alivia would be unstoppable with it.  <br /><br />Since the Golden Bracelet and rings angreal are more powerful than the turtle this means that for the Golden Bracelet x would be greater than or equal to 1.346560348 (assuming Sidious' calculations are correct) .  It's impossible for Sidious to be correct and for angreal to be logarithmic.<br /><br />EXPONENTIAL<br />I'm not even going to waste time showing angreal are not exponential because I don't want to waste the time.  I feel it sufficient to say that logarithm growth is slower than exponential growth, so just take my word for it.  If logarithms are unrealistic, then having angreal that have exponential growth is even more unrealistic no matter what type of exponential equation you use.<br /><br /><br />FIXED MULTIPLIER DISCUSSION and CONSTANT ADDITIVE DISCUSSION<br /><br />You may not know this, but fixed multipliers and constant additives are all part of the same type of function.  They are linear.  The standard function for a linear equation is y = mx + b.  The constant multiplier = m.  The fixed additive = b.   The base strength of the channeler = x and the final amount of power able to be channeled = y.  That is also the equation for graphing the slope of a line.  Anyway, onto Elayne and the turtle.<br /><br />y = 120 (twice Nynaeve's power)<br />m = multiplier<br />x = 35 (Elayne's base power)<br />b = constant additive.<br /><br />Let's assume that it is a fixed multiplier and there is no additive part.  So if b = 0 then we would have the following equation: 120 = m(35) + 0.  In this case m = 3.428571429.   <br /><br />So if this were true (a 100% fixed multiplier for angreal and no additive part) then we can find out how much Alivia would channel using the angreal.<br /><br />In Alivia's case we have a different x (Alivia's base power) = 75 (according to Sidious).  So we would have y = 75(3.428571429) + 0.  So the total power Alivia could channel would be = 257 units of power if b = 0. <br /><br />&quot;m&quot; can be higher than 3.428571429, if b is negative.  The problem here is that you can make &quot;m&quot; as big as you want for Elayne and still get an equation that fits.  But the higher you make &quot;m&quot; the more powerful you make the angreal when Alivia picks it up and the more unrealistic the fight between Alivia and Cyndane becomes.  <br /><br />Just to prove my point, let's make m = 10 and solve for b for Elayne.   y = mx + b.  So we have 120 = 10(35) + b.   So b = -230.  But when Alivia picks up this same hypothetical angreal she would have y = 10(75) - 230.  And Alivia would be able to channel 520 units of power.  Anyway, the higher you make m the more unrealistic the angreal becomes when Alivia picks it up so &quot;b&quot; cannot realistically be negative.<br /><br />When I posted earlier I assumed that the angreal was 100% additive.  This makes the angreal the weakest it can be.  In other words, I assumed that m = 1.  This would mean that for Elayne 120 = 35(1) + b.  This would mean that the angreal always adds an extra 85 units of power since b = 85.  You see that in my post when I was talking about the angreal adding 85 units of power to Alivia and Elayne.<br /><br />It is possible for angreal to have an &quot;m&quot; value below one, but this is highly unlikely because if &quot;m&quot; is less than or equal to 1, for some people the angreal would allow them to channel LESS than they could unaided.  So I am 100% certain that angreal have m values equal to or greater than 1.<br /><br />And I have typed enough, but if you all want me to I will prove to you that in the equation y = mx + b for an angreal &quot;m&quot; must always be greater than or equal to 1 and &quot;b&quot; must always be greater than or equal to zero.  If &quot;b&quot; is not greater than or equal to zero then you also get cases where some people are inhibited by the angreal. By definition angreal allow a channeler to channel more of the one power than they could unaided so &quot;m&quot; must be greater than or equal to 1 and &quot;b&quot; must be greater than or equal to zero.<br /><br />CONCLUSION<br />We do not know the exact function used by Jordan in making angreal.  However, angreal must be linear.  The &quot;m&quot; value can be anything as long as it is greater than or equal to 1.  The &quot;b&quot; value can be anything as long as it is greater than or equal to zero.<br /><br />Sa'angreal are probably logarithmic or even exponential.  I'm thinking about the Choedan Kal for example.  But it is entirely possible for sa'angreal to also be linear too.  We just don't have enough information and probably never will to accurately determine the type of equation used for sa'angreal.<br /><br />cdaulepp<br />


created: 2005-09-04 05:16:29
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Here are some of my replies to various issues which have been raised. I&#8217;m not going to reply in both threads, so I&#8217;ll rather post all issues on this blackboard. First off, thanks for reading my theory. I didn&#8217;t really expect anyone to read something so lengthy and I&#8217;m very appreciative of those of you who did read it, and even more grateful to those who took time to scrutinize it.<br /><br /><b>Hawking </b><br />Thanks for the compliment, man. But you&#8217;re still under my dominion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Tilelyanea </b><br />You are correct. I made an error or two on the way &#8211; it is meant to be 5% in every case, but on some occasions I incorrectly subtracted 5 points rather than 5%. Thanks for pointing it out.<br /><br /><b>Skeeve the Great </b><br />You are correct here. As she demonstrated with Liandrin, there is only one knot in that shield. There appears to be one point for each channeler. Thanks for pointing that out. The soft points are maintained, the hard ones are tied off &#8211; Rand confirmed that.<br /><br /><b>Phil Reborn </b><br />Thanks for all your crits which you NB&#8217;d me. You are partially correct &#8211; linking does create precision as a side-effect (as I wrote in one of my theories), but it doesn&#8217;t create accuracy or speed as far as we know. Accuracy is after all the way in which you weave, and you certainly won&#8217;t gain direction or skill when linked. Damer may be as weak as 60, and as strong as 70.<br /><br /><b>Talathar</b><br /><br />There is no reason to dispute Asmodean&#8217;s statement, because it has been directly echoed by Moghedien, and implied by Graendal. Asmodean also provides a statement stating that two women need to link to match a man. You are also incorrect in your assumption that the strength of channelers has dropped since the AOL &#8211; the strength is there, as Egwene has proved by accepting all women who want to train. The Seafolk and Aiel also show the correct demographics with weak and very strong channelers.<br /><br />Your point regarding the strength of Rand, Ishamael, Lews Therin, Logain and Taim is unfortunately totally incorrect, and I doubt you will find anything to back this up. It has been mentioned time and again that Lews Therin was the strongest channeler in the Age of Legends &#8211; the absolute maximum strength for a channeler. Logain or Taim cannot exceed his strength, but they could equal it (but it would be unlikely). As Lanfear said, he was as strong as any Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Regarding the sa&#8217;angreal, a small difference would create a palpable difference in the end (as you say). That is why I say their strengths were probably equal. If we look at Nynaeve and Rand using the Choedan Kal during the Cleansing of saidin &#8211; Rand draws the maximum of both halves of the Power, yet the Aes Sedai report that much more saidin was used. Clearly Rand gained far more through the Choedan Kal. If Rand&#8217;s strength was 100 multiplied by a million, and Nynaeve&#8217;s 65 multiplied by a million, the difference would be visible. It is however debatable whether Rand could accurately discern the difference between him and Asmodean when they were drawing such a colossal amount of saidin.<br /><br />That was just one point in Ishamael&#8217;s favour, and I mentioned it because it is a difference between Ishamael and the other Forsaken.<br /><br /><b>Aeilman Rand </b><br />Thanks man, I think I will &#8211; if RJ gives us more evidence.<br /><br /><b>Shooganooga </b><br />The Forsaken do lie and deceive, and I mention that I know this on several occasions. However, they don&#8217;t lie all the time. When Graendal says that Cyndane is stronger than her, I don&#8217;t see why we shouldn&#8217;t believe it. That would be ridiculous.<br /><br /><b>Kalanchan </b><br />You are partially correct in your assumption regarding multiple flows. However, Egwene mentions that Rand uses almost no effort to weave at least ten flows. Egwene can weave at least four flows, but she requires no effort to weave two or three &#8211; the effort comes when she weaves the fourth or fifth. Same with Rand &#8230; up to ten will be easy for him, and then he will need to try harder. Due to the fact that most Aes Sedai can only weave two anyway, it stands to reason that two would be twice as hard as one in their case.<br /><br /><b>the speedbart</b><br />Thanks, it took me many months <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Thanks for all the kind words.<br /><br /><b>Feebleman </b><br />Ok, your comments are vague and frivolous. I know I have some mathematical errors, but none of my story points are incorrect.<br /><br /><b>Ashandarei001 </b><br />I think your opinion is flawed here. There is no reason to place Ishamael below Lews Therin, especially when all the evidence places him on Lews Therin&#8217;s level. In fact, it is far more likely that Lews Therin did indeed have the strength and skill to make him unmatchable. You can&#8217;t say that Ishamael knew as much about the Power as Lews Therin when Asmodean has already revealed flaws in several Forsaken&#8217;s knowledge. To go further, there is no evidence that Lews Therin and Ishamael dueled at all. It might just mean that Lews Therin defeated Ishamael&#8217;s army. Even if they did duel and had the exact same strength &#8211; someone has to lose &#8211; and it doesn&#8217;t mean the loser is weaker.<br /><br /><b>harrymonk</b><br />Thanks. Some strength is lost in a link, but not much.<br /><br /><b>Kulgan Noblesse </b><br />Yes, that was a typo. Thanks for that. Thanks for the complements.<br /><br /><b>Mika Hopesorrow </b><br />Thanks for the compliments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>kcf </b><br />Thanks for the compliments, man. I did superimpose my list onto Linda&#8217;s FAQ list, but her list lists the levels for women only. I personally don&#8217;t think that there are men on RJ&#8217;s 21-level list, but I&#8217;ll have to find his exact quote to see if I am right. If he does have a 21-level list with men then it would probably have Rand and most of the male Forsaken at 1, with Lanfear at 2 &#8230; and so on until it looks like Linda&#8217;s list.<br /><br />I did mention that the Forsaken are liars and deceivers, and RJ&#8217;s new answer from Dragon con shows that they can even delude themselves from their own PoV. Lanfear&#8217;s statement could be misleading &#8211; she is trying to make them scared of Rand and force their hands. Rahvin may indeed be arrogant enough to overestimate his strength, but I have other evidence in his favour too.<br /><br />The shielding point is valid &#8211; there is one point per channeler. You are correct. A shield held by one person would be more difficult to break because it would contain all the strength. However, a shield held by six might be a more complex weave and would require some Talent to break. There are many factors in shielding.<br /><br />Someryn is a channeler of contention. I don&#8217;t think she is as strong as Graendal (her strength is very rare in women) but she could easily be as strong as Semirhage. Either way, Someryn is Forsaken strength and I placed her in the most conservative slot.<br /><br />I thought you would bring up Asmodean <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I see that several people share your opinion &#8211; alas I don&#8217;t agree. I don&#8217;t think that he is dismissed by the majority of the Forsaken, but he was dismissed by the strongest of them, namely Sammael, Rahvin, Lanfear and Graendal. As you say, Rand&#8217;s strength cannot be gauged at that stage and he could be weak still &#8230; 50,60 or 70.<br /><br />The first obvious reason why the Forsaken would dismiss Asmodean would be because of his personality &#8230; he&#8217;s a pianist and he has a weak character. It&#8217;s just like high school where the cultural guys get beat up by the sportsmen. It stands to reason that Asmodean&#8217;s history as a failed pianist is a black mark against the likes of Demandred, Sammael and other potent characters. In fact, I&#8217;m convinced it is the reason why Demandred is so dismissive of Aginor (another nerd). Graendal does the same with Mesaana.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t agree with your comparison to Moghedien. The truth about Moghedien is that she is actually too weak in the Power to be chosen. Her tactics of cowardice could be the sole reason why she is still alive. Notice how she never joins in at Forsaken tea parties, but rather spies on them. Moghedien is unique. She has taken an unpopular tactic and honed it to absolute perfection. Her Forsaken name even alludes to her mastery of this backstabbing art, and the other Forsaken use her as a reference when talking about it. Lanfear says that Asmodean was a coward, but by no means was he a masterful one like Moghedien. Compare how Natael travels with Keille as a gleeman, but Moghedien disguises herself as a servant so that no one notices her. I think that he is the coward of the males, but not so cowardly that he could survive with a wildly diminished strength for a male Forsaken. The lowest I could place him would be 75, but I&#8217;m convinced he isn&#8217;t weaker. If some Ash&#8217;aman can gain a strength of 60, then it would be irreconcilable that they could equal one of the Forsaken. Forsaken strength is by implication, rare and special (even Moghedien&#8217;s).<br /><br />The absolute proof of his strength comes from Lanfear &#8230; TSR(The Traps of Rhuidean) <i>That shield will allow a trickle through, enough for him to teach. It will dissipate with time, but he&#8217;ll not be able to challenge you for months, and by that time he will have no choice but to remain with you.&#8221; </i><br /><br />Lanfear&#8217;s statement is clear &#8211; Asmodean will be a direct threat to Rand even months from then, even after he is trained. He must be strong enough to challenge a man of Rand&#8217;s strength &#8211; implying great strength in the Power.<br /><br />As for Asmodean&#8217;s statements regarding the Forsaken, it is well to remember that he only mentions fears after he is shielded. It seems natural that he would be scared of Semirhage in his shielded state &#8211; if she decided to come and fetch him as a &#8216;traitor&#8217;, how could he possibly defend himself? It also explains his nightmares regarding Lanfear, and his explanations of how any of the male Forsaken would kill him on site if they saw him. Unshielded, he is a different man. Notice how he browbeats Lanfear earlier in the book when she smothers his conversation with Mat. And lol about the Graendal point &#8230; makes a good case for her balefiring him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Foxhead </b><br />Thanks for the kind words. It&#8217;s difficult to compare Cyndane and Asmodean &#8211; but I doubt Lanfear was so much stronger than Asmodean that she could still exceed him even in a weakened state. As for the consultation &#8230; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Stinkerskunk </b><br />Thanks. I think the other Ash&#8217;aman are more than respectful to him. When they are having a conversation outside his cabin in front of his two Aes Sedai, he often causes them to splutter or apologize. They clearly respect him.<br /><br /><b>Seriana Sedai </b><br />Thanks for the kind words <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Arun </b><br />Thanks for the compliments. I&#8217;m sure precision weaving is important in any weave, and Perrin remarks that Grady better do a good job of placing the gateway or he&#8217;ll be angry. It appears that Grady and Neald use the Power often. Perrin remarks that they sit aside every night and look into the distance concentrating. Either weaving or just holding saidin, I would say. It&#8217;s probably not a good idea to weave a gateway while tired, but it is still only one weave and it doesn&#8217;t take too long. I&#8217;m sure exhaustion, concentration and other factors play a role.<br /><br /><b>ZehGuga </b><br />Thanks for reading it, that is compliment enough. I explained Asmodean above. Thanks again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>AlgSpkr </b><br />You are correct, and I didn&#8217;t forget about it. I was amazed to see that the sentence has disappeared. It was in my original draft but I think I deleted it when I was editing Aviendha&#8217;s section. A reason she is struggling is because she is trying to use another weave instead of her original weave, and this always causes problems. As for the gateway Talent, I agree and believe that Rand may have the true Travelling Talent especially with the size of his gateways, skimming platforms and blocking.<br /><br /><b>Reptile </b><br /><br />Thanks, but I clearly mentioned Berowin&#8217;s Talent for shielding. Skill is a factor which cannot be quantified so I can&#8217;t possibly include it. I mentioned that skill is important too. I explained Aviendha above. Thanks for all the kind words <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Seth goes to College </b><br />Thanks. I don&#8217;t think the gateway hypothesis is flawed. There is an undeniable link between strength and gateway size &#8211; even if the conclusions thereof are flawed. The air bridge is naturally made of Air (with some Fire), and we know that Air is generally a female Power. When you Travel you use Spirit exclusively, which is shared between men and women. There is also no evidence that males need more or less strength when Travelling. However, there is a Talent. Good points on shielding.<br /><br /><b>I bear the taint </b><br />Thanks a lot, man. I addressed the Aviendha issue a post or two up.<br /><br /><b>cdaulepp </b><br />Thanks for all your detailed comments, and for the kind words. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve misplaced any of those four women, and I&#8217;ll explain why. I&#8217;m not going to address all the complex mathematics you did below, because I believe there is some evidence to show that an angreal is a fixed multiplier.<br /><br />Elayne got hold of the turtle angreal and said it made her twice as strong as Nynaeve. Let&#8217;s simplify it with some round numbers (feel free to point out if you don&#8217;t like this) &#8230; If Elayne has a strength of 40 (35-40), and the angreal made her about twice as strong as Nynaeve (55-65 x 2 = 120), then the multiplier is about 3. We then are told that the woman-wrapped-in-her-hair angreal makes Aviendha twice as strong and it is weaker than the turtle, so the multiplier is two. So &#8230;<br /><br />-	woman angreal multiplies your strength by 2<br />-	turtle multiplies your strength by 3<br />-	bracelets are stronger than these &#8230; let&#8217;s make it the most conservative : 4<br /><br />Now we have Alivia who takes this angreal and uses it at the Cleansing. Using it her strength would be 300 against Cyndane&#8217;s 75. This is the way it is, because Jordan made it this way. And Cyndane survived and possibly even won the duel. I&#8217;m not saying that skill can override this discrepancy but I am saying that these are the strengths which Jordan implies when he mentioned Elayne&#8217;s boost using the turtle angreal. I made a whole post on this because I thought the difference was irreconcilable. Consider how strong Graendal&#8217;s weak little ring angreal would make her if it merely doubled her strength (a weak angreal in Elayne&#8217;s opinion).<br /><br />Now I see that there are criticisms regarding Cyndane and Alivia&#8217;s placement based on this. The truth is &#8230; how would you fix this? We know that the turtle at least trebles your strength, so a stronger angreal must do even more. The only solution would be to give Alivia a strength of 25 (like Moiraine&#8217;s) and with the trebling allow her to equal Cyndane. Of course, this is preposterous. Just look at the logic of the situation &#8230; Nynaeve is Forsaken strength and can match most of the FS according to Jordan, and Alivia is supposedly considerably stronger than even Nynaeve. So Alivia is upper female Forsaken strength, no matter how you look at it. Unaided. Now Jordan gives her a strong angreal. There is just no way that a paradox cannot be averted. That is why I said that Alivia was at least as strong as 90, because Cyndane said she was stronger than Lanfear. My only A real possibility is that Alivia only used a little of the angreal (she was very inexperienced) and not the full potential.<br /><br />What I find strange is that you linked all of this with shielding. Why? Are you perhaps assuming that Alivia would naturally go for the shielding option if she was so much stronger? Alivia was damane, and decided to kill Cyndane &#8211; Cyndane even mentions that the ground heaved beneath her feet. It was the same with Rand &#8211; he didn&#8217;t decide to shield Ishamael with Callandor (if he could remember how), but rather to kill him.<br /><br />I addressed the gateway issue above. We already know that Grady and Neald can make larger gateways than the girls, so I don&#8217;t see a problem here.<br /><br /><b>Lord Melkor </b><br />So what are you proposing? That Cyndane be several times more powerful than Alivia?<br /><br />Thanks to all of you who read the theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-04 17:40:17
subject: <b>Let's break up the discussion into parts, since I have issue with 3 of your assertions</b>
body:
There was one little mistake.  I have the quote here.  The woman with hair angreal that elayne finds allows aviendha to channel ALMOST twice her unaided strength.  The quote is from Elayne on page 121 of Path of Daggers in the chapter The Breaking Storm.  &quot;Aviendha, you know how it feels when you hold as much as saidar as you can?  Think of holding almost twice as much.  Really think of it.&quot;<br /><br />Anyway, I'm going to put up a post in a couple of days, maybe later today, about angreal and how they are constant additives, but that's for another discussion.  Let's keep on topic.<br /><br />GATE WAY SIZE<br />I agree with you about using gateway size to estimate the strength of a channeler.  But I believe you can only use method when comparing channelers of the same gender.   <br /><br />You are using gateway size to compare different genders. And you are making assumptions based off of this which you have no way to prove.   But we know for a fact that men and women weave gateways differently.  Where or how did you account for this?  Is it easier or harder for a man or woman to weave their style of a gateway?  Men are stronger in earth and fire.  Women generally in Air and Water.  Spirit is equal.  What weaves do you use to make gateways?  <br /><br />There's too many unknowns here for you to accurately use gateway size to compare different genders.  Comparing same genders is okay, but not different ones using gateways.<br /><br /><br />66% RULE DISCUSSION<br />When explaining the 66% rule and how it applies to shielding the first thing you say is:  <font size="-1"><b>&quot;To conclusively sever the established connection to the Source you need to be much stronger than the person you are shielding. We believe you need to be two-thirds (or 66%) stronger than the person you are shielding. Moghedien and Nynaeve, and later Talaan and Nynaeve showed that you can shield one another if you have the same strength. However, as Nynaeve said when shielding Talaan, shielding is chancy when your strengths are close but the chances of success increase the stronger you are compared to your target. In other words, if the chance of shielding someone of similar strength is 25% or less, then the probability increases as you become stronger until it becomes almost 100% when you are 66% stronger than the other person. As Nynaeve implies, being two-thirds stronger would constitute the very much stronger she was referring to.&quot; </b></font><br /><br />By your strength scale I say Alivia has 160 units of power using the angreal (because I believe it is additive) .  You believe angreal multiply power and therefore Alivia had 300 units of power against Cyndane's 75.  Either way, according to you, &quot;the probability of shielding someone becomes almost 100% when you are 66% stronger than the other person&quot;.  Alivia was clearly somewhere between 200 and 400% stronger than Cyndane by your scale.  <br /><br />Damane are trained in shielding.  Alivia would immediately have realized how weak Cyndane was compared to her once they started to fight.  If we use your scale and we assume the 66% rule is correct and we assume Alivia was so much stronger than Cyndane there should have been no contest.  Alivia should have shielded her like a child.  <br /><br />But clearly there was a contest.  Alivia didn't get the singed arm from Cyndane's first fireball, nor did she get it from the ground throwing them into the air.   She got it from Cyndane somepoint after this.  The implication is that Cyndane and Alivia were not that much mismatched in their fight or Alivia would have immediately shielded her with no resistance from Cyndane. You have Alivia and Cyndane misplaced.  Your 66% rule just can't be correct.<br /><br /><br />GRAENDAL DISCUSSION<br />You've also thought about Graendal and her angreal, but remember that Verin's group fought her and Verin had a weak angreal and a linked circle.  So the Graendal vs. Verin group fight is hard to say who had the advantage in raw power since we don't know the exact strength of Graendal's angreal or Verin's nor do we know their strengths exactly.<br /><br /><br />HOW DO YOU FIX IT SOLUTION<br />You admit that you've considered the problem of Alivia having 300 power vs. Cyndane's 75.   You ask what is the fix then?  You say the only solution is to give Alivia a strength of 25 (equal to Moiraine) and with the tripling of her power with the angreal she would be equal to Cyndane.<br /><br />That's not the solution.  The solution requires you to adjust some of your assumptions which I am showing can't all be true at the same time.<br /><br />First off, you need to accept that the flowing hair angreal, the turtle brooch angreal, and the golden bracelet and rings angreal do not multiply your strength. They add a fixed amount of power no matter who picks it up.  (Rand's fat man angreal must be a constant adder too, but I'm going to post later on that) .  If you change some of your assumptions then you can get the math to better work out.<br /><br />Next you need to change another assumption.  You need to make Cyndane and Alivia as far apart as you possibly can (leaving room for Nynaeve and the other forsaken to still be more powerful than average women) .  This means you need to shift Lanfear up so that Cyndane can be shifted up too.      <br /><br />Since the turtle allows Elayne to channel twice what Nynaeve can at that point in the story the closer Nynaeve and Elayne are at that point the better for your theory. <br /><br />Also, the further away from Nynaeve's potential you can place her at this point and still have room to shift everyone else accordingly, the better for you theory.  <br /><br />Finally you need to put as much seperation between Alivia and Nynaeve at this point in the story.  Alivia won't be growing in power anymore.  But the lower you make Nynaeve at this point in the story, the more likely your theory is true.<br /><br />Shifting Nynaeve, Elayne, Alivia, and Cyndane will make your theory more believable.<br /><br />Here's where they should be placed when they pick up the turtle angreal for your theory to make since.  <br /><br />Lanfear - as close to 100 as you can go.  <br />Cyndane - as close to 95 as you can go.<br />Alivia - 75 (you can leave her if you move Lanfear)<br />Nynaeve - 55 at this point.  Potential = 65.<br />Elayne - 40 at this point.  Potential = 50.<br /><br />Now look at the math after we shift the women around and assume the turtle adds not multiplies.<br /><br /><br />2 * 55 (Nynaeve) = 110.<br />110 - 40 (Elayne) = 70 (turtle) .<br /><br />If the turtle adds 70 units of power then the golden bracelet adds 70+.<br /><br />Alivia ( 75 ) + angreal ( 70+ ) = 145+.<br /><br />So there you have it.  Those numbers are more realistic.  Alivia at around 145 vs. Cyndane at around 95 makes more sense.  <br /><br />If you shift the women then your theory holds much better.  Now your 66% rule can still be true.  Now we could see why Alivia didn't just immediately shield Cyndane.  But this can only be true if you move the women, like I said in the beginning.  <br /><br />Let me just say that I do not personally believe that those are the places where the women should be placed.  I am saying that those are where you have to place the women for your theory to hold up.<br /><br />cdaulepp<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-09-04 18:25:24
subject: <b>More replies to Cdaulepp</b>
body:
Ok, here are some of my replies to you. You have made some poor assumptions and unfortunately these have been based on ignorances rather than a real challenge to my theory. So here we go&#8230;<br /><br /><b>Angreal </b><br /><br />That statement on the hair angreal was nitpicking, but anyway you are technically correct. We can work with decimals if you wish, and obviously I am aware of all of the relevant quotes. The angreal essentially multiplies strength by 2 (or 1.98 if you wish). As for the constant additive effect, you are completely wrong here. We already know that stronger channelers become far stronger than weaker channelers who use the same angreal.<br /><br />TPoD (Unweaving) - <i>With it, she could handle twice as much of the Power as Nynaeve, and Nynaeve herself would do better. </i><br /><br />This statement is just one of at least three that I am aware of which shows that Nynaeve would gain more from the angreal. Therefore the additive hypothesis is totally incorrect. If the angreal added 75 then Nynaeve would gain less (15%) compared to Elayne ( 88% ). There the angreal are multiplicative &#8230;<br /><br />Elayne (40) + turtle (3<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> = 120 (which is 2x Nynaeve almost)<br />Nynaeve (65) + turtle (3<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> = 195<br />Therefore Nynaeve gains more from the angreal. I wrote a whole theory on this &#8211; it&#8217;s somewhere in the archives.<br /><br /><b>Gateway Size</b><br /><br />You see, you can&#8217;t challenge me here because you aren&#8217;t aware of all the facts. Gateways are pure Spirit weaves which means that the strength is shared between men and women. Apart from this, there is no evidence that either of the sexes struggles to Travel more than the other. We also know, thanks to Egwene, that women can Travel like men but die (and vice-versa), implying no difference in strength. Men are stronger in the Power, and while most Ash&#8217;aman can Travel, most Aes Sedai cannot. Therefore another trend is fulfilled.<br /><br /><b>66% rule </b><br />Ok, but what else did I write &#8230; <i>Remember, this is only if you want a 100% chance at success &#8211; and even then your target may attempt to slice your weaves. Rand may be able to slice the shield generated by nine linked Aes Sedai before it settles on him, and therefore 13 would be a safer number to ensure that he can&#8217;t even do this. These numbers only mean that this circle would be able to cut the channeler off from the Source if they didn&#8217;t resist. </i><br /><br />We don&#8217;t know the limits of slicing weaves. As I said in another theory I wrote (called Precision weaving), Forsaken strength characters can create razor sharp weaves and it is possible that Cyndane could slice Alivia&#8217;s weaves &#8211; even though Alivia could technically shield Cyndane. In fact, the first thing which happens when they are fighting is for Cyndane to slice Alivia&#8217;s flows. Alivia and Cyndane are correctly placed and I&#8217;m not going backwards through the whole list. Jordan said Nynaeve could match the majority of the Forsaken &#8211; and it is absurd to think that Lanfear and/or Graendal would be vastly stronger than her. There is no way that Semirhage and Nynaeve could occupy 65 with Lanfear at 98 &#8230; it goes against the author&#8217;s own words and even against logic.<br /><br /><b>Graendal </b><br />What point are you trying to raise? I merely said that Graendal has an angreal and that it would make her much stronger even if it was weak. I know Verin had an angreal &#8211; I didn&#8217;t dispute anything.<br /><br /><b>The &#8216;Solution&#8217; </b><br /><br />I didn&#8217;t admit the problem regarding Alivia and Cyndane. I said that Alivia had a strength of 300 and Cyndane a strength of 75 while they were fighting. As I said, angreal are multipliers &#8211; it is the only way for them to fulfill the author&#8217;s words. Your post on angreal will be burned to the ground by other posters if it implies additive natures of angreal &#8211; there are posters who wait in the shadows for this debate and they feel very strongly about it. And they are correct too.<br /><br />Shifting the whole strength list just to satisfy angreal arguments is preposterous because angreal, like shields are notoriously inaccurate measures for gauging strength &#8211; as I mentioned several times in my theory. Your suggestion &#8230;<br /><br />Lanfear - as close to 100 as you can go. <br />Cyndane - as close to 95 as you can go.<br />Alivia - 75 (you can leave her if you move Lanfear)<br />Nynaeve - 55 at this point. Potential = 65.<br />Elayne - 40 at this point. Potential = 50.<br /><br />&#8230; has no merit. In fact, I find it preposterous to propose strengths like this for Lanfear and Cyndane. Lanfear was never so much stronger than Graendal as I proved. Alivia is stronger than Nynaeve, but not so strong &#8211; and even then, a strength of 75 would still not reconcile the angreal argument in the cleansing of saidin. Nynaeve is also much stronger than Elayne, as I also proved.<br /><br />My theory does hold up on the vast majority of points. You are making a fundamental error here &#8230; you are assuming that Alivia would automatically opt to shield Cyndane. There is no logic in this argument because I clearly said you can defend yourself from shielding, just like Cyndane would have done. Either Alivia only used some of the angreal&#8217;s strength or she used it all and Cyndane still managed to survive. It is an anomaly but it doesn&#8217;t mean the strengths have to change.<br /><br />For instance, would you suggest that I shift Rand&#8217;s strength to compensate for Ishamael&#8217;s impressive performance against Rand with Callandor? Ishamael clearly survived this battle until the very end, and his weaves almost killed Rand on most occasions. Even though we know that Rand could have been at least ten times stronger. It doesn&#8217;t make sense. And Rand didn&#8217;t opt for shielding here either. Just like I&#8217;m not going to weaken Rand&#8217;s strength so that its satisfies the scene where Lanfear almost shields him at the Docks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-04 19:55:17
subject: <b>more replies</b>
body:
Angreal<br /><br />I guess we'll just have to disagree, but at least we agree that the equation for an angreal is linear.  y = mx + b.  You're saying that b = 0 and the gain all comes from m.  I'm saying that m = 1 and the gain all comes from b.<br /><br />I guess we just disagree.  I will be posting some math on this subject in a few days on the main message board.  In particular, Rand's fat man angreal has several reasons why it is additive, not multiplicative.<br /><br />&quot;Nynaeve would do better still&quot;  There are two ways to interpret this.  <br /><br />A) When Elayne uses the angreal she can channel 120 units of power, BUT when Nynaeve uses it she can channel 65 + 85 = 150.   150 is better than 120.  <br /><br />B) Elayne has her power multiplied by 2 and Nynaeve would have her power multiplied by something higher than 2.<br /><br /><br />GATEWAY SIZE<br />How can most Ashaman travel?  Rand needed all the Asha'man who could travel when he fought the Seanchan and 2 Asha'man, 8 dedicated, and 40 soldiers came.  That was only 50 out of more than 500 Asha'man at the time.  Only 10% of Ashaman can travel.<br /><br />Some Aes Sedai can make a gateway, but not big enough to put more than an arm through or half a body, etc.   I suppose the Asha'man are this way too.  But there were 50 that could make a gateway big enough for people to go through.  <br /><br />Anyway, I still think that the weaves are different for women and men and therefore it is less reliable to use this information when comparing opposite genders.<br /><br /><br />66% RULE<br />You say:  <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Rand may be able to slice the shield generated by nine linked Aes Sedai before it settles on him, and therefore 13 would be a safer number to ensure that he can&#8217;t even do this. These numbers only mean that this circle would be able to cut the channeler off from the Source if they didn&#8217;t resist. </b></font><br /><br />Do you mean that if Rand RESISTS he can cut their weaves and stop them from shielding him?  13 Aes Sedai would have 260 - 5% so somewhere around 247 power you say against Rand's 100.  So 13 Aes Sedai would have 247% more strength than Rand and yet you think he can win by cutting their weaves??? <br /><br />Begin my sarcasm: <br />If Cyndane can stop Alivia who is 300 to 400% more powerful than her, then Rand must surely be able to beat 13 Aes Sedai who are only 247% more powerful.  C'mon, be realistic.  <br />End my sarcasm.<br /><br />We all know that Rand can't resist against 13 Aes Sedai.  He can't cut their weaves.  He can't stop them. He couldn't do anything against them.  They would whip him.  We saw what they did to him in Lord of Chaos.  He has zero chance against 13 Aes Sedai.  They would beat him, as Asmodean says, like a child.  13 Aes Sedai would beat Rand every single time.  Rand can't stop 13 Aes Sedai and Cyndane can't stop an Alivia who is 300% stronger than her.  <br /><br />The conclusion is obvious. There's something wrong with your theory.  I think you have the women misplaced and you are calculating the strength of the angreal wrong.  The only other possibility is that Jordan made a mistake.<br /><br /><br />GRAENDAL<br />You brought her up originally saying that you considered her with her weak angreal.  I don't know why you brought her up originally.<br /><br /><br />THE SOLUTION<br />I agree with you that the solution I proposed doesn't fit.  I was showing that you would need to alter where you have the women for your theory to hold true.  In fact, you would have to alter them to places that make no since at all for your theory to hold true.  Therefore, your theory needs modification.<br /><br />If your theory is true, then by the math, Rand should be able to defeat 13 Aes Sedai linked by slicing their weaves and because he has Age of Legends knowledge.  You're saying this is how Cyndane won.  That's ridiculous.  <br /><br />You asked if I would shift Rand to accomodate Ishamael's battle with Rand in Tear.  It's not my theory to defend.  I think that no matter where you put the people, the 66% theory doesn't hold up.  I think that women make different gateways than men.  I think that its going to give sporadic results comparing men and women's gateways.<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-05 14:05:41
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Cdaulepp ...<br /><br />Elayne's statement clearly shows that Nynaeve will gain more by using the same angreal. Obviously she will be stronger than Elayne when she uses it, but the truth is that she will gain even more. That is why it is at least a fixed multiplier, but it cannot be additive.<br /><br />Regarding Ash'aman - far more can Travel. Rand never emptied the Black Tower of Travelling men to fight the Seanchan. He asked for a set amount of men. The vast majority of Aes Sedai cannot Travel whereas most Ash'aman can.<br /><br />Well Rand didn't try and resist them because he was shielded before he had chance to. He can't see saidar weaves - they were suddenly there. I never said that Alivia actually used the full strength of her angreal, but the conclusion is inescapable...<br /><br />I am not wrong if Jordan wants to tie his own feet up. If a moderate angreal makes Elayne twice as strong as Nynaeve, and we give an even stronger angreal to a top Forsaken strength woman - then we know that she is going to be immensely powerful. Jordan implied it with Elayne, not me. It doesn't mean I am wrong. Put another way, Jordan basically gave a woman stronger than Graendal a strong angreal to fight a woman weaker than Lanfear ... the paradox does not lie in my words, but in his.<br /><br />A circle of thirteen also commands very precise weaves which may be impossible to slice. Also commented on in another theory of mine. A channeler of equal strength will have less 'sharp' weaves so they can be sliced.<br /><br />I provided innumerable quotes showing that the shielding hypothesis does work ... so I don't know why you are shooting it down based on the Alivia-Cyndane battle when we don't even know the true strengths and whether shielding even occured <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-06 12:00:31
subject: <b>A couple responses...</b>
body:
-cdaulepp<br /><br />Believe it or not, I do know something about math. I chose not to go into the details and let others take the time to do so. I agree that angreal appear to have a linear relationship - but I'm still not convinced of it. For all we know, RJ may have been making it up as he went along with know fixed rules at all - this would likely make for a rather difficult mathematical solution; though I think we can safely say it would average to linear. Yes, fixed multipliers and constant additaves are from the same system, but a flat line vs. a sloped line makes a large practical difference in the end result, if not a large conceptual difference.<br /><br />However, you seem to be ignoring what is really the most important part of my response - skill and knowledge. Strength is only part of the whole of channeling, especially when you account for the skill, knowledge and training of the AoL vs. the rather barbaric contemporary times. Heck, even Moiraine was able to kill Bel'al who is vastly superior in raw strength.<br /><br /><br />-Sidious <br /><br />Well, as always, we just disagree on Asmodean's placement. However, I'll still respond to a couple of your points.<br /><br />-Well, we've never seen Asmodean at a forsaken meeting either, so in this case, the comparison to Moghedien is quite relevant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />-The Asmodean works with Lanfear doesn't indicate a strength to me - just some reluctance and frustration to have to listen to her. Asmodean is not happy about his situation and he expresses it.<br /><br />-I think that any forsaken near Rand (even Moghedien) would be a threat, and this is what Lanfear refers to with her quote. I certainly don't see Lanfear's quote as anything approaching absolute proof.<br /><br />-I don't think think that forsaken strength is particularly rare. About half of the forsaken have strength that would be considered rare. The remaining forsaken just have strength that is well above average. To use an analogy (I haven't given this too much thought, so the details are not important), let's think of them in a percentile manner.<br /><br />The likes of Ishy, Demandred, Aginor, and Sammael are certainly above a 95 percentile ranking (Ishy would be 99.9999...), with Rahvin and Bel'al probably rather close as well. And on the female side, Lanfear is like Ishy: 99.9999... and Graendal is certainly 98 or 99. After these two, Semirhage and Mesaana are probably closer to a 95 percentile. Moghedien, as week as she is, is probably still over 90. Now, back to Asmodean, he just seems to be lower - I see him at about 90, maybe as low as 85. So, in this percentile ranking, Asmodean is still stronger than 85 or 90% of male channelers - strong, but not rare. Keep in mind - this quick analogy does not address absolute strength or comparison with the sexes - it's just an exercise of thinking of relative strengths.<br /><br /><br />-an unrelated point:<br />'TPoD (Unweaving) - <i>With it, she could handle twice as much of the Power as Nynaeve, and Nynaeve herself would do better. </i><br /><br />This quote by Nynaeve can be interpreted in a couple different ways, so I would not call it solid evidence. Though it does imply that that Nynaeve would gain more than does Elayne. <br /><br /><br />Anyway - great theory...maybe Harriet's encyclopedia will clear things up in the end?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-07 11:04:56
subject: <b>Harriet's Encyclopedia</b>
body:
KCF - <br /><br />I'm hoping that Harriet's Encyclopedia will clear it up too.  And I agree with you, there's more than one way to interpret the quote and since there's only one quote to base everything off of, it would be nice to have more quotes.  <br /><br />I might run down to the book signing in Ohio.  It's only a few hours drive.  If I do go, I'll be asking about the angreal for sure and probably if xyz forsaken is stronger than abc forsaken.  Hopefully I'll get a solid answer and not something cryptic.<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-08 22:11:06
subject: <b>What about Graendal vs. Verin's circle in Winter's Heart?</b>
body:
I respect your theory Sidious I do.  And I know we've gotten off on a tangent arguing about angreal and whether they are multipliers or adders.<br /><br />I just read someone else's post about angreal only compensating for the strength of the person holding the angreal when it is used in a circle.  I had forgotten this part I have to admit.<br /><br />So back to your rankings.  You have:<br />Graendal - 70<br />Verin - 21<br />Shalon - 22<br />Kumira - 15<br /><br />Verin had the angreal in her circle and using it only her contribution to the circle would be multiplied or added (depending on if you ask you or me).  We definitely have evidence of this from when they use the Bowl of Winds. <br /><br />I know we don't know exactly how much more of the power the angreal allow Graendal or Verin's circle to channel.  I agree with you on the 5% loss of power when a circle combines.  So by your scale, Verin's circle **unaided** would have 58 - 5% = 55.1 units of power.  Graendal would have 70 units of power unaided.  But when Kumira dies Verin's circle is reduced to 40.9 units of power, before adding the extra power from the angreal.<br /><br />I think Graendal and Verin's group got interrupted by Callandor.  It's the easiest and most likely scenario, but suppose they weren't interrupted.  Cadsuane was directing attacks with Callandor only when they were attacked, because as Cadsuane said, &quot;her people were out there too,&quot; but when the direction of the channeling came followed by an attack against the hilltop there could be no doubt it was an enemy.<br /><br />If weak angreal MULTIPLY your power by 2 or 3, then Graendal would have either 140 (multiplying Graendal by 2) or 210 units of power (multiplying Graendal by 3). <br /><br />Whereas, only Verin's power would be multiplied by 2 or 3 giving her circle BEFORE Kumira dies a power of 79 - 5% = 75.1 (multiplying Verin by 2) or 100 - 5% = 95.0 units of power (multiplying Verin by 3).<br /><br />If angreal are multipliers, then for Verin's sake I hope hers multiplied by 3 and Graendal's only multiplied by 2.  That would pit Verin's group still at a disadvantage of 95 units of power against Graendal's 140.  That still gives Graendal a 47.3% advantage over Verin's circle.  <br /><br />Once Kumira dies, Verin's circle strength is lowered to only 81 points (multiplying by 3) or 61 points (multiply by 2).  <br /><br />81 against Graendal's 140 or 210.  At this point, Gaendal's battle against Verin's circle becomes so great it is EXACTLY like the Cyndane and Alivia fight ---totally unrealistic if angreal are multipliers.<br /><br />Finally, Cadsuane sees lightning and firebolts hitting her inverted shield like &quot;she has never seen before&quot; and is directing the attacks with Callandor using the Swallow. She hopes &quot;there are no mishaps...her people were out there too. If the warning came with an attack though, there could not be much doubt.&quot;  <br /><br />When Graendal turns to fight Verin's group, I doubt she continues her attacks against Rand and company.  She had an immediate threat behind her to deal with.  It's possible they were interrupted by Callandor, but what is the probability????  I don't know.  Do you?<br /><br />If we change the angreal to adders, not multipliers, the fight seems more realistic.  <br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-08 22:32:21
subject: <b>A few missing Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I couldn't find Sarene or Corele on your list.  In fact, they aren't on the FAQ at wotmania either.  I'm trying to figure out where they ranked.  Since those two combined with Damer Flinn were attacking Demandred in Winter's Heart and Demandred says that Flinn's attacks were just as strong as his would have been, we should easily be able to figure out those two Aes Sedai's strengths.  But I don't know where the quotes are that compares their strengths to other sisters.  If we can find where they're supposed to go we will know Damer Flinn's exact strength.<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-09 08:36:51
subject: <b>Strength of Flinn's circle...</b>
body:
Hi Cdualepp(hope I spelled that correctly)<br /><br />Sarene and Corelle's strength is nog provided in the books as far as I can ascertain. However, we do have a few hints.<br /><br />We know who the strongest Aes Sedai in Cadsuane's group are, they are Nesune, 2nd strongest I believe, and Narishma's owner (I always forget whether it is Merise or Myrelle), who is the strongest.<br /><br />And we also know who the weakest ones are, namely Dagian, Kumira etc. Sarene and Corelle are not mentioned in one of these groups. So I assume that Sarene at least, is about average strength for an Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Corelle might be stronger. Cadsuane notes that Corelle is the 2nd best Healer in the Tower. Even given a strong Talent for Healing, I still believe that greater strength makes it more likely that you will perform well in a particular area of the Power. At the least, Corelle cannot be below average.<br /><br />We see that the greatest known Healers are also very strong channelers - Semirhage, Nynaeve and Flinn (the strongest Ashaman). It makes sense to estimate that Corelle must be a fairly strong Aes Sedai. But clearly not in Moiraine or Nesune's category.<br /><br />So let's give Sarene about 18, and Corelle about 22. That means they add 40 strength to the circle.<br /><br />We already know that Flinn is the strongest Ashaman with Rand in PoD - he is stronger than Rochaid or Gedwyn, who are Taim's most prominent commanders and therefore probably Taim's strongest Ashaman. Flinn can create complex weaves that none of the other Ashaman can duplicate, and he has had some personal instruction from Aginor himself. We saw that Asmodean's teachings made Rand stronger, so it is possible that Aginor's instruction did the same to Flinn. <br /><br />Certainly, by the time of PoD, Rand notes that Flinn had jumped up significantly in strength since Dumai's Wells, and already at Dumai's Wells Flinn was strong enough to weave a gateway. In fact, Flinn was the first Ashaman to be tested and selected, so he certainly has had as long a time as anyone to grow in strength.<br /><br />All of the above makes a strength allocation of 65 or or 70 quite realistic for Flinn, leaving him strong enough to match Demandred with two average Aes Sedai, while still far enough below Rand for Rand to say that none of the Ashaman are yet close to himself in strength.<br /><br />


created: 2005-09-09 14:01:31
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Actually I don't think you can provide scale to angreal to easy, Cdaulepp. Elayne says that the amber turtle is &quot;not strong&quot; and this doesn't mean weak.<br /><br />In Graendal's case I do believe that it really was a weak angreal. Firstly, it is very small (a pinky ring) and angreal are often, but not always associated with size. It is therefore the smallest angreal we are aware of.<br /><br />If Graendal says it doesn't offer much, then it cannot possibly even double her strength. I doubt it raised her strength past 90, but I doubt with it she was stronger than Lanfear at 85. That's my personal opinion, but Graendal's words show that a huge increase was not present. For Verin to call her immensely strong means nothing really - even unaided Verin would say that. If three sisters couldn't shield her, then she is by implication very strong.<br /><br />Verin's also doesn't give her too much I believe. I doubt the Wise Ones would have left Verin alone if they felt masses of saidar being channeled in that tent.<br /><br />So ...<br />Verin (22+10) + Kumira (15) + Shalon (1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> = 65<br />Graendal (70+10) = 85<br /><br />It would be like Semirhage and Lanfear fighting.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 16:18:04
subject: <b>Those numbers are possible, but...</b>
body:
You have Verin listed at 21 and Shalon at 22.   Verin does say that Shalon is stronger than her at the cleansing, but as if that mattered when it came to control of the circle.  <br /><br />So now you are saying that Verin's angreal contributed an extra 10 units of power and Graendal's about 15.  I can't argue with this because we don't know what the angreal did.<br /><br />Angreal add a fixed amount of power.  It's the only way for things to make sense.<br /><br />cdaulepp<br /><br />


created: 2005-09-09 17:32:17
subject: <b>But why?</b>
body:
Why can't Graendal's angreal have a fixed multiplier of say 1.2? That would move her from 70 to 84. It would move Moiraine from 25 to 30, and Rand to 120. It could make perfect sense.<br /><br />Angreal strength varies massively.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 18:54:21
subject: <b>1.2</b>
body:
It is possible her angreal multiplies by 1.2.  <br /><br />Think of how much harder it would be to make an angreal that will allow different amounts of the power to be channeled when picked up by a different person.   It seems a lot simpler to make something that always adds the same amount, i.e. 10, 20, 30 units of power.<br /><br />It is this added difficulty that I think seperates angreal from sa'angreal.  I'm thinking it is far more likely that sa'angreal multiply power and angreal add power or something like that.<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-09 20:54:42
subject: <b>you are right</b>
body:
I've been looking up quotes on different times that angreal are used.  When they use the bowl of winds, Talaan is given the second strongest angreal to use.  Nynaeve has the strongest and Elayne gives the weaker one to Aviendha.<br /><br />Elayne remarks that she wishes she didn't have to give one to the seafolk and she wonders if there will be a fight to get it back.  <br /><br />They are worried about there being enough power to work the bowl sufficiently.  That is part of the reason they go to the farm - to look for more women they could possibly add to the circle.<br /><br />Now if angreal added a fixed amount of power ANYONE could have used the angreal and there would have been no need to give the angreal to Talaan.  But the strongest woman there (Nynaeve) got the strongest angreal.  The second strongest woman (Talaan) got the second strongest angreal.  Elayne judged the remaining Sea Folk as they came through the gateway from Ebou Dar and Elayne, Aviendha, and Metarra are equally matched.  So it didn't matter which of the three used the remaining angreal.  They would get the same end result since they were equal in power.<br /><br />I don't like being wrong, but when I am convinced I am wrong, I am willing to admit it.  <br /><br />I was wrong about angreal not being multipliers.  But I wasn't wrong about the Alivia Cyndane fight or the Graendal vs. Verin's Circle fight.  Once Kumira is dead it should have been a pushover and Alivia should have smashed Cyndane in an instant with her angreal that multiplies power somewhere beyond 3x<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-09-11 08:49:53
subject: <b>Cleansing was a huge stuff up...</b>
body:
In my opinion, RJ made a total hash of the Cleansing scene.<br /><br />Firstly, none of the circles should have been able to match any of the Forsaken.<br /><br />Secondly, Cyndane should have been burned to crisp by Alivia's angreal aided strength. (If RJ was going to give Alivia an angreal, at least he could have contrived to have her use the weakest angreal available - just to make it more even.)<br /><br />Thirdly, even now, RJ seems confused regarding which Forsaken actually appeared in the on screen fights against the circles. <br /><br />If you look at RJ's comments afterwards, it is easy to see what his motivations were. He attempted to show us that the distrust and lack of unity among the Forsaken led to their defeat at Shadar Logoth. A theme that he has pretty much beaten to death by now. Frankly, I am rather tired of it.<br /><br />In order to get to this result, RJ was willing to throw aside all logic, to fit his plot idea. He states that if the Forsaken had linked, they would have been victorious against Rand's forces. Highly unlikely, considering that Callandor alone could have crushed all of the Forsaken together. <br /><br />So, RJ's aim was to have each of the individual Forsaken driven off or killed in the battle, and he did not care whether the strength combinations made such a result logical or not.<br /><br />Maybe that is why RJ is so secretive regarding channeler strength. He wants to leave himself some room to change the rules as he goes along.<br /><br />Which has become significantly more difficult thanks to diligent readers like Sidious and myself, who have pieced together his strength list from the scattered clues he has left throughout the series.<br /><br />Time to pick up your game a bit, RJ. The time for logical flaws in your One Power scenes has passed.


created: 2005-09-16 18:07:05
subject: <b>Wow!</b>
body:
Huge work, lots of it probably correct, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />...But! A KoD spoiler! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Was it really necesary? Many points were made even without it.<br /><br />Anyways, good work, thumb up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 18:11:44
subject:
<b>I was finally able to finish reading all of it.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
and I'll have to say that is a very impressive piece of work! Kudos to you as well as Shannow for his input! <br /><br />I don't really have too much to add. Tamela and Viendre seem fairly hard to place, and makes me wonder. They both appear to be mid-twenties, which would probably place them in their 30's or even near 40 or more, and so have probably reached their potential by now. (In argument for this is Nynaeve and her age in comparison to her looks. She's 26 IIRC, but most people seem to place her in the teens by her looks.) Since stronger channelers slow sooner and more severely, Tamela and Viendre are almost certainly much older then they appear. So, while Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha are weaker than these two at the present time, they may eventually surpass them. Impossible to tell, though.<br /><br />One other thing I would add about shielding, and it comes from an older booksigning. (Post-PoD in Nov.-Dec. of 199<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />:<br /><br /><b>Report by Justin Howell</b> <br /><br />&quot;I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired.  The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channellers of the same sex as the victim.  Thus two women (A and V on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in CoS) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand. As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.&quot;<br /><br />So, same-gender linking and shielding factors into the versatility of the shield.<br /><br />Something I have always wondered about, (and it concerns what you and kcf debated above about the six soft points), in relation to the statement from the booksigning I provided. It appears to me that the women shielding Rand weren't linked, but rather it was a layered shield, and thus the six soft points. (This explains the individual knots, IMO. The women were tying off their individual shields so they could join in the battle.) <br /><br />If they were linked, it seems to me it would only be one soft point being maintained by the leader of the circle, but it would be very strong. Your thoughts?<br /><br />From start to finish, this is a great theory. Thoroughly researched, and well-written. You have my congrats and admiration for undertaking such an enormous task. <br /><br />Thumbs up to both sections from me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-27 18:21:13
subject: <b>I know you don't care but I do have at least one new point</b>
body:
I would like to start by commending you on all of your work.  At the end of the day it was a noble undertaking and though I still do not agree with you I would like to point out the high level of coherency and even a point of brilliance.  I even admit that if I agreed with your interpretations of the text I would likely be more in agreement with your results.  Because we have beaten that horse to death I won't address the matter of interpretation except in one case mainly to illustrate a point.  Overall I agree with you in the end that our perceptions on that are irreconcilable.  Instead of arguing those interpretations I am going to address three flaws I perceive in you theory.  One is the apparent discrepancy seen in the Alivia-Cyndane battle, which indiates a neglect for the issue of skill.  The second is the comparison of gateways, which unlike the above is essential to your calculations.  Both of these issues have been raised by others though I intend to explore them a little differently.  The third flaw is one of presentation in the best case and circular argument in the worst. <br /><br />As mentioned elsewhere on the Blackboard the Alivia-Cyndane battle raises some serious issues regarding placements on this scale.  While skill cannot currently be measured it clearly had to play a part here.  This theory even comments on this point.  However, how that observation affects the theory as a whole was neglected.  There are several ways to look at this.  One that I abhor is that the author would abandon a system he has created himself in such a blatant fashion.  A second is to consider if this situation is new or if we've seen it before.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t think its reasonable to confuse this battle with missing Cleansing scenes and the color of Kari al&#8217;Thors eyes or even whether Elaida was a Sitter.  These known mistakes are either minor details or the results of rushed proof reading.  The Alivia-Cyndane battle is to specific to be fall into either of these categories.  He showed us that Alivia is stronger and armored for that matter and yet she still comes away wounded when she should have been dragging a corpse or a prisoner with her.  Even if you were to speculate that he meant for Alivia to have the turtle that&#8217;s still near 2x what you have Cyndane listed as.  There are other instances where this disparity in strength is shown.  While in many of these instances other factors can be introduced the main point to be made is that the weaker party always stood their ground and win or lose they put up a good fight.  Rand&#8217;s defeat of Aginor in the EOTW and Ishamel&#8217;s subsequent defeats there and in TGH were both performed long before Rand was anywhere near their strength.  Conversely with Callandor in Rand&#8217;s hand Ishmael put up a good fight, as did Rahvin against the much weaker fat man, which we have no gauge for.  Before you argue that Ishmael and Rahvin ran because they entered T&#8217;A&#8217;R please remember that half of Rand&#8217;s encounters with Ishmael were in T&#8217;A&#8217;R and that was prior to any angreal or sa&#8217;angreal or reaching of potential.  Since Ishmael had a preference for that place there is reason to believe that Rahvin shared that preference.  What is important to note is that neither of them actually ran away because in T&#8217;A&#8217;R they could have disappeared as soon as they passed through the Gateway, they did not.  In essence they both thought they had a chance and drew Rand into a place where they had more control similar to Sammael&#8217;s trap in Shadar Logoth.  It is clear that Rand had superior power here and yet neither Rahvin nor the severely outpowered Ishmael escaped while they had the chance.  Finally in this particular instance not only did Cyndane knowingly attack someone maybe three times her strength but also walked away from the encounter leaving this strongly Powered and protected channeler wounded.  All of these instances cause one to question what the competing factor is here if it is not raw strength.  Ishmael, Rahvin and Cyndane all three knew they were facing a superior amount of Power but whether defensive or head on they faced that power when they could have simply used there superior knowledge to escape, i.e. live to fight another day.  Why did they make that choice if that level of increase was beyond them to defeat?<br /><br />Elayne&#8217;s inspection of the Ebou Dar cache reinforces this question.  If a 2(Nynaeve) turtle is not strong that means an almost 2x woman in hair is probably weak.  One has to wonder how strong a strong angreal is.  The rings and bracelets are even greater than the turtle and yet they weren&#8217;t identified as strong when they are at the very least close to 3x.  Considering Elayne&#8217;s labels why do the Forsaken seem particularly intent on possessing strong angreal when even a relatively weak one even less than 2x would put them above their fellow Forsaken.  Why would Demandred need a sa&#8217;angreal to fell confident in attacking Rand if something as simple as a 1.1x angreal would put him over Rand on your scale to the same approximate 5 points.  There has to be more to it here since this blatant display as well as the more sublte ones in the earlier books indicates that angreal only provide an ill defined edge and one that the Forsaken don&#8217;t seem too especially wary of.  And if this raw power is slave to skill in this instance a more prominent accommodation must be made for it in normal interactions and evaluations.  As Light In The Night pointed out in reference to Aginor, a 300 pound couch potato is unlikely to defeat a 300 pound wrestler but they are both quantified the same and it is knowledge of their use for that weight, the quality of that weight, that they would evaluate each other.  In conversation with you you&#8217;ve indicated that you think that this qualitative evaluation is impossible to identify consistently but you also indicate that for the most part you don&#8217;t think that addressing this qualitative issue is necessary for your theory to hold true.  Unfortunately I don&#8217;t feel you can have it both ways.  Because in the Alivia-Cyndane battle and elsewhere when the evidence goes counter to your arguments you&#8217;ve played the convenient skill card and yet refuse to take it into consideration when examining indirect evaluations of strength where it would be inconvenient if skill were accounted for.  Since I know you would not consider not writing this you could have for consistency sake made an earnest attempt to explain this seeming discrepancy without using the skill card.  I even thought of one for you that I could half way believe.  What if using the excess power of an angreal decreases your relative dexterity? But rather than elaborate let me put this pet peeve aside.  I&#8217;ll move on to one of my more formidable points.  It is possible that Ishamael&#8217;s, Rahvin&#8217;s and Cyndane&#8217;s boldness were DEM  but Cyndane&#8217;s survival leads one to believe that it is well thought out.  As this is most likely going to boil down to a difference of opinion I will accept arguments that it does not affect the majority of your theory and move on to a flaw that undermines the whole thing no matter how you spin it.<br /><br />	This second flaw as mentioned above is the most devastating and the most simple being in plain sight as it is.  Ashmodean whom I think we can all agree is stronger than Sorilea can&#8217;t demonstrate a gateway where she can.  This proves one of two things or perhaps both.  One men and women&#8217;s gateways being fundamentally different cannot be compared for size and therefore not for strength which eliminates your only legitimate way of establishing a coed scale.  The other alternative is that Ashmodean was not being as helpful a teacher as you make him out to be which makes all information from him suspect and perhaps invalid and thereby making the limits you&#8217;ve set on women even thinner.  Short and sweet right.  I thought so anyway.<br /><br />Before I address the third important flaw I want to address a few of the minor ones along the way.  One will be further proof against gateways.  One will be the refutation of an unfounded statement and the last will conjoin with this newly repaired quote with a different interpretation of a particular passage.  My only interpretation argument I promise. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The first minor flaw is indicated by the quote<br /><br />&#8220;only a handful were strong enough to make a gateway larger than they could put an arm through and most not even that&#8221;<br /><br />I don&#8217;t know how big your arm is but according to your scale even a weak AS with a strength of 10 should be able to open a Gateway with 14SF in other words approximately  3.75 x 3.75  or if your adventurous 2 x 7 which is about the size of a bathroom door.<br />The fact that neither Ash nor Sorilea can open one at all indicates that your gateway size doesn&#8217;t actually correspond directly to total strength and gives us another reason to disregard it as a way to accurately compare men to men or women to women let alone men to women.  In other words if a gateway is 15 percent of the size of Rands it should still be big enough to walk through and therefore Ashmodean&#8217;s weakened to 15 on your scale should still be able to get around.  So the smallest gateway must be made by someone ABOVE a certain strength and therefore you have to establish that strength independently before you can show how strong someone with a gateway 50% of Rands size.  The fact that every channeler can&#8217;t make one however small proves that 50% does mean a strength of 50.<br /><br />The second minor flaw is indicated by the quote<br /><br />&#8220;Jahar is growing stronger.  At Shadar Logoth, I thought I must be imagining it.  Three or for days ago, I was half convinced I was mistaken.  Now, I am sure I am correct.  If men gain strength by fits and starts, there is no saying how strong he will become.&#8221; She did not voice her obvious worry, of course; that he might grow stronger than she.&#8221;<br /><br />You claimed this was an erroneous thought by Cadsuane.  However in the very last chapter of WH we find out that Cadsuane has an intimate knowledge of Narishma&#8217;s strength as she has linked with him in order to ascertain the results of the Cleansing.  It is highly unlikely that she only drew dribbles for this test so she should therefore know my favorite characters limits and contrary to your scale accurately place him BELOW Merise.<br /><br />The third is a showing of how a slightly different interpretation can make vast changes in your scale.  Again it has to do with my favorite character. Narishma.<br /><br />&#8220;As they came close&#8230; Rand could feel the Power in the grizzled old man and the younger, maybe as much as they could hold.  They had both leaped up in strength since Dumai&#237;s Wells.  That was the way of it with men; women seemed to gain smoothly, but men suddenly jumped.  Flinn was stronger than Gedwyn or Rochiad, either one, and Narishma not far behind&#8230;None came close to matching Rand, though.<br /><br />While I grant you the right to your opinion see what happens if you take this to mean that both Flinn and Narishma are stronger than Gedwyn and Rochaid.  The basis of your interpretation is that the gap between Gedwyn/Rochaid and Flinn is too small to fit Narishma into.  Mine is that there is plenty of space and that this is simply the shortest and most confusing way to write this sentence so that people like you and I can argue with each other.  But consider for a moment what happens if my interpretation is the correct one.  Flinn whom you have currently at 65 should still have Narishma not far behind but Merise is stronger than Narishma which makes her at least twice as strong as you have her placed.  Just think what would happen if other statements are interpreted differently than you have them.  All the many ones we have argued over.  Even one being wrong drastically changes everything.<br /><br />That&#8217;s enough of that little foray because the next flaw is with something intrinsic to your theory and one in which I hesitate in pointing out because it may simply be a case of a missing paragraph or two.  Unfortunately if it is intentionally missing or non-existant your 66% has to be eliminated based on the fact that as presented it is a self-serving example of circular logic.  Essentially many of your numerical placements were validated with your 66% rule and your 66% rule was validated by your numerical placements.  This is clearly inappropriate when trying to prove your theory.  You can not present a theory with more than one unknown and while educated guesses are all well and good this is instance is not the place for them as most of you evidence is highly circumstantial.  Without gateways and your 66% rule you have nothing but a reasonably accurate list ordering men from strongest to weakest like the 21 level list of the FAQ has already done for women.  As I said above you simply could have been missing a paragraph somehow basing the 66% rule on comparing gateways of two people who had tried to shield each other but as far as I can tell you did not.  (Circle strength also falls into this category  of circular logic as well as under the first flaw of skill neglect but not so drastically)<br /><br />So in closing.  While some excellent work was done here and even a moment of brilliance in your treatment of the Guide concerning the late joining of Demandred et al.  I have to say that this theory is unconvincing.  The very premise of comparing male and female Gateways which is your most compelling evidence is disproved by Ashmodean&#8217;s inability or unwillingness to demonstrate the weave.  A particularly bitter fruit if it was unwillingness.  Your backup verifications of 66% and approximate circle strength both fall under the scrutiny of circular logic.  And regarding selective interpretation of passages you fail to eliminate skill completely while also failing to include it uniformly.  When you brush off Alivia-Cyndane, Reanee Corley and how circle precision applies to shielding as much as it does to making Gateways bigger you are essentially only using skill to patch the holes that the rest of your theory leaves wide open.  I know you think I&#8217;m being overly hostile but even eliminating the matters of interpretation as I have done you&#8217;ve been unable to prove your point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-04 23:21:11
subject: <b>One add on to Onarishma's post</b>
body:
I just want to point out Onarishma that Asmodean was completely on Rand's side after he was captured.  Lanfear checked in on Asmodean's dreams and Asmodean was dreaming of Rand defeating all the rest of the forsaken and the dark one.<br /><br />Asmodean knew he was screwed and his only hope of living was for Rand to win.  If he COULD HAVE demonstrated the weave for a gateway, he WOULD HAVE, there's no question about that.<br /><br />cdaulepp


created: 2005-10-05 19:09:00
subject: <b>I think your assuming one thing</b>
body:
That a person can't have conflicting hopes.  Suppose he decided to adhere to his pre-shield lesson plan as much as possible on the off chance that Lanfear did save him from his current situation.  That hope might be terribly small but there none the less especially since he already knows that Rand is a quick and inventive channeler.  So he can be evasive or even outright lie without sacrificing Rand's chances and yet still have his bases covered if Lanfear does come to save him.  It is only after Lanfear dies that we hear from his point of view about tufts of grass.  In that same POV he calls the DO the Great Lord.  I don't think his dreams or even this POV proves that he was wholeheartedly on Rand's side.  Certainly not to the point of providing all information.  Consider again that at the very least he could have explained the concept like Rand had no trouble explaining to Egwene.  I mean Rand already knew how to make the gateway he just didn't know how to direct it to be a Traveling Gateway instead of a Skimming one.  Half the process was already known and he couldn't at least dscribe the missing piece?  Egwene was able to figure it out by knowing that it could be done and by knowing how it was done.  I think Rand is at least as canny.<br /><br />Overall though I agree that he probably could not but either answer would be damaging to the premises of this theory.  Him lying would actually be the least of the two. though even if he did not lie directly he did by ommision for describing the technique.  What an Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-07 05:05:16
subject: <b>One quibble.</b>
body:
This is certainly one of the best theories around!! I enjoyed every moment of it.<br />That said, I do have some quibbles.<br />First, I agree with all those who said that using gateway size for comparing male and female strengths is incorrect. <br />Sidious: You have claimed atleast twice that Gateways are pure spirit weaves and since spirit is shared equally by men and women, comparing their gateways is allowed.<br />   Well, I don't have my books now, but when Elayne is unweaving her gateway in Andor(the one which causes an explosion) she mensions pulling out a thread of Air. Also, the fact that when this half unweaved gateway cases an explosion and fires shows that there must have been some threads of fire atleast. Whatever you do, a combination of Air and Spirit can't cause a fire!<br />   So, there seems to be conclusive evidence that Gateways consist of atleast one &quot;male&quot; power, one &quot;female&quot; power and one shared by both.<br />   Another point to be noted is that the bending of light is a weave that uses different amounts of power for men and women. Rand, when using it says that the amount of the power used is so small that someone would almost have to be on top of him to detect it. On the other hand, most AS aren't strong enough to make the weave and so Elayne maked ter'angreal to help them. Also, Rand uses Air and Fire to make this weave, so we can't account for the difference using the &quot;male&quot; power alone being used argument.<br />   What I am trying to say is that certain weaves may require differnt amounts of Saidin or Saidar, and yet need not be weaves using the male or female dominant powers.( I do hope I am being clear.)<br />  Thats all for now!


created: 2006-02-05 20:08:21
subject: <b>Streangth vs Skill</b>
body:
RJ has alluded that skill can overpower pure strength. Look at when Nynaeve was psuedo-dueling that windfinder. I Believe that someone with Lanfears skill could easily overpower someone who's only use of the power has been killing &quot;helpless&quot; soldiers (you don't become a good fighter by stepping on ants).


created: 2007-11-23 13:19:52
subject: <b>Can't work with this list</b>
body:
This post will come across as rather adversarial, but my reason for this is stated at the end.<br /><br />For starters, I don't understand the notations about *Male Forsaken Strength* and &quot;Female Forsaken Strength*.<br /><br />The first major fault I find is that they are adding the strengths of linked channelers together when it has been emphasized that 2 women linked does not simply add their power together.  It is not until later that the -5% is added in.  I would be curious as to where the 5% comes from, as I believe it to be a much greater drop.    <br /><br />The BWB says that Lanfear was second only to Ishamael in strength.  There are several places where even the Forsaken misjudge their own abilities and those of the others.  It is reasonable to assume that the information in the BWB is the more accurate guide.<br /><br />Additionally, you point out:  TDR (The Hammer) - &#226;&#8364;&#339;&#226;&#8364;&#166;No one knows the strength of the Forsaken, except that Ishamael and Lanfear were the strongest.&#226;&#8364;&#157;  <br /><br />Nobody said that Lanfeal was that much stronger than *any* other female channeler of her time.  Among the Forsaken however, she was second only to Ishamael.  There were only 13 Forsaken.  There could have been plenty of female channelers in the AoL who rivaled Lanfear's strength, but not gone to the side.  The Forsaken were not THE 13 strongest in the AoL.  They were 13 OF the strongest.  Big difference.  There are way too many holes in the theory.  And too many assumptions that are not actually based on something from the books but from math decided upon by the author of the theory.  <br /><br />As to Nynaeve being listed stronger than Moghedien, there is no evidence to suggest that she grew stronger after their meeting, where they were equal.  The post mentions something about Winter's Heart, but I noticed there is no passage shown to support this.  I'd have to see the passage before I believe Nynaeve wasn't at full strength when she met Moghedien.<br /><br />From the post: &quot;Moghedien also nearly had apoplexy when Nynaeve thought of challenging Rahvin to help Rand. She is most likely weaker than Lews Therin, Rahvin, Lanfear, Cyndane,Graendal, Nynaeve and Semirhage.&quot;   <br />This actually suggest to me that she still assesses Nynaeve's strength near her own, which is why she doesn't feel Nynaeve has a chance against Rahvin.<br /><br />The post also assumes that Liandrin is correct in her assessment that she and 2 others could take Moghedien.  Liandrin overestimated her strength and ability more than once.  The thoughts of &quot;modern&quot; Aes Sedai are not credible for comparison.  Especially when you look at a quote from &quot;Eye of the World&quot; in which Aginor states, &quot;I, who faced Lews Therin Telamon in the Hall of the Servants itself. I, who threw my might against the Lord of the Morning and met him stroke for stroke. I think not.&quot;  Aloud, or in their minds, the words of the Forsaken should be taken with a grain of salt.<br /><br />I could go on pointing out the flaws in the theory, but it would be pointless.  I've read items that flat out contradict each other.  Ultimately, Lanfear should be just below LTT and Ishamael.  <br /><br />This theory also makes a number of assumptions about how long it takes from a woman to reach her full strength in the Power.  With no evidence to back it up that I could see.  <br /><br />The article is well-researched, but ultimately flawed. <br /><br />I still want to go back and find the passage about Alivia's strength against Cyndane.<br /><br />Additionally, I find the tone of &quot;I am right, and you can disagree, but you are wrong&quot; offensive.  <br /><br />&quot;Many people will disapprove of our placement of some common Ash&#226;&#8364;&#8482;aman above Forsaken like Moghedien or other renowned channelers.of strength/. Unfortunately, if you find yourself being skeptical here, it means you haven&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t fully appreciated the difference between men and women in the Power. If you are one of these people, do yourself a favour and go and observe the acts of the Power performed by the men and women in the series.&quot;<br /><br />This implies that anyone who disagrees has not thoroughly read the books and must not really understand them.  It indicates closed minds, which leads to errors in judgment.  I'm afraid that, while making for interesting reading, the arrogance of the writer reduces their credibility much further in my opinion.<br /><br />Still, I gotta admire someone who puts that much work into something like this. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Cheers!<br />Emerald


created: 2007-12-02 10:30:38
subject: <b>Concerning gateways and spirit</b>
body:
An additional problem with the use of gateway-size as an indicator of all over strength in the OP is the fact that the strength of individual channelers isn't the same for all of the five powers.<br /><br />For example, we know that Rand is most likely the strongest channeler alive and since he's also made the largest gateway we can assume that there's a direct link there.<br /><br />However, in TDR hmm one of the early chapters, just after Rand left Moiraine, Perrin and the others to run off to Tear. Perrin and many of the Shienar soldiers have dreams about Rand and about the cliff heart in Tear. Moiraine attributes this to Rand and says something like a strong channelers dreams can intrude on others, especially if the channeler is particularly strong in spirit.<br /><br />Now this isn't rock solid of course, but it's just an example where different channelers are described as having one power which they're more powerful with. Just as Egwene is particularly strong with earth, especially considering she's a woman.<br /><br />So then, this could be a factor which throws calculations off. Rand is strong, hence his gateways are larger than most, but according to Moiraine his dreams intruding on other people indicate that he's especially strong in spirit. This might give Rand an edge in the making of gateways beyond what his great strength would give and also, it might explain his unusual abilities, like preventing Aviendha's gateway from closing.<br /><br />Now this is more in the nature of a spur of the moment comment. Overall I really like this theory and the use of gateway-size as an indicator of strength.<br /><br />


created: 2008-05-24 11:11:46
subject: <b>Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha</b>
body:
They have not reached their strength yet.  I would estimate their strength at 45 - 50.  Nynaeve would have to be higher than 65, perhaps 70.  Graendal would be around 80+, Cyndane 85+, Lanfear 95+


created: 2008-05-24 11:28:38
subject: <b>My list</b>
body:
100: Lews Therin Telamon/Rand al&#8217;Thor<br />99: Ishamael/Moridin<br />97: Lanfear<br />95: Demandred <br />94: Aginor<br />93: Sammael<br />90: Rahvin, Taim, Logain<br />85: Cyndane, Alivia, Sharina<br />80: Be&#8217;lal, Balthamel (Aran&#8217;gar), Graendal<br />70: Nynaeve<br />65: Semirhage, Mesaana, Talaan, Damer Flinn<br />60: Jur Grady<br />55: Moghedien, Someryn, Fager Neald<br />50: Torval, Gedwyn, Rochaid<br />48: Tamela, Viendre<br />45: Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Metarra, Jahar Narishma <br />44: Bode<br />30: Cadsuane, Therava<br />28 - 29: Meilyn, Kerene, Nicola<br />25: Moiraine, Siuan (old), Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine, Garenia, Rainyn<br />24: Amys, Cetalia, Kirstian, Larelle, Leane (old), Merean, Merise, Naime, Pevara, Reanne, Rysael, Saerin, Sheriam, Theodrin, Yukiri<br />23: Anaiya | Beonin | Bera | Caire | Carlinya | Coiren | Desandre | Faolain | Felaana | Galina | Joline | Kiruna | Kwamesa | Lemai | Maigan | Melaine | Morvrin | Myrelle | Nesune | Silviana | Talene | Tebreille | Teslyn<br />22: Delana | Doesine | Edarra | Faeldrin | Gabrelle | Katerine | Liandrin | Leyn | Masuri | Rafela | Renaile | Seaine | Shalon | Sumeko | Toveine <br />21: Alanna | Alviarin | Chanelle | Dorile | Duhara | Eldrith | Falion | Ispan | Julanya | Keraille | Kurin | Merana | Narenwhin | Senine | Seonid | Tarna | Verin<br />*** minimum level for Travelling ***<br />20: Average Aes Sedai (16 &#8211; 20) &#8211; Aeldine | Asne | Chesmal | Covarla | Demira | Elza | Marillin | Merilille | Tialin | Adeleas | Kairen | Micarra | Sareitha | Temaile | Turanna | Valinde | Vandene | Zerah<br />15: Weak Aes Sedai (10-15) Aiden | Akarrin | Berenicia | Berowin | Cabriana | Careane | Kumira | Leane (new) | Siuan (new) | Therva | Zemaille<br />10: Average Accepted (5-15), average woman, Siuan (new)<br />7 : Daigian<br />*** absolute minimum level to become Aes Sedai ***<br />5 : Average novice (1-10)<br />*** minimum level to become Accepted ***<br />3: Sorilea, Alise<br />&lt;1: Morgase


created: 2005-09-09 10:39:03
subject:
<b>I have been looking for the song <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I can definitely agree that the Blight would take a bit of work to return to a semblance of normal, and that it would take more than regular human power to do it.  <br /><br />I have been trying to figure out why the song is important still, now, but I can't really come up with anything that satisfies me.  Your theory gives me some things to chew on.  <br /><br />Maybe they can sing at Fain and heal him too?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Siddy's Green<br /><font color="gray">*wears the bowtie*</font><br /><br /><font color="teal"><i>Obama - &quot;Vote for me, I'm Barack Obama&quot;<br />McCain - &quot;Vote for me, I'm not Barack Obama&quot;</i></font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 11:20:39
subject: <b>Makes sense to me...</b>
body:
I just can't see it happening before the end of Book 12<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is reassuring to know that almost everything you think you know is wrong.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 12:02:24
subject: <b>To JonT</b>
body:
I don't think he is saying the healing of the blight will happen before the end of the series. He is saying (from my interpretation) that they will discover the power of the song again at the end of the last battle. Thus making it possible to heal the blight before the next time the dark one breaks free. I think that if this happens it would be in the epilogue, kind of telling how the blight was healed in the 4th age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 12:58:27
subject: <b>to drewman</b>
body:
i was just being a bit silly there, i think the Song will cure the Blight, whether or not it will be done immediately after the LB is something purely speculative<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 13:15:43
subject: <b>But why are the Tinkers in or near the Blight????</b>
body:
Doesnt really seem like they would go there voluntarily...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania's very own 'Sex Wiki'<br /><i>The Dirty Old Man of Wotmania</i><br /><br /> <br />attack of the Ninja Smiley<br /><br />BigBrotherBrian to most of the Wotmania Sisterhood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 14:00:29
subject: <b>your probably right</b>
body:
I expect the last of the seals to be broken anyway at the end of book 11. Having full access to the world again the DO will probably advance the blight quite a bit after his forces have overrun the borderlands and perhaps even more. Half of Randland being consumed by the Blight and additional damages of Tarmon Gaidon will leave the Tuath'an with sore throats for the next century.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm the Alpha and the Omega</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 15:11:49
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
The Healing of the Blight, yes. I just don't think the Tinkers will join in. Or the Aiel, for that matter. The Ogier, sure. The Seanchan Ogier too. And maybe Rand. Perhaphs he'll also create a Nym, using those nifty memories of his.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 16:14:45
subject: <b>At the end of TEOTW</b>
body:
after Rand injured Ishy  and destroyed the Trolloc army using the saidin of the Eye, the edge of the Blight moved back considerably. Therefore I think that Rand defeating the Dark One is what will destroy or remove the Blight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 17:33:40
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
The only reason I disagree is because it would have been done in the Age of Legends. Even Rand's glimpse on the day of the Strike at Shayol Ghul shows that the Song was still popular during the War of Power. Yet this was not used to drive back the Blight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-10 11:15:47
subject: <b>Agree with Linda</b>
body:
In fact, I typed up the response yesterday, then went back to check your Theory, and then lost my response. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However, the &quot;mighty blow&quot; of defeating the DO will cure the Blight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-10 11:21:16
subject: <b>to linda and jofraz</b>
body:
there's been no recording of the blight moving back when the DO was resealed, which would certainly have been more of a blow to him than losing a trolloc army<br /><br />of course it could just have been forgotten, but this is the reason why i think the Blight needs an external force to cure it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-10 14:15:22
subject: <b>In book 8 I think</b>
body:
It says the blight is very quiet and has moved back a couple of miles, which started the armies guarding the blight kick the $#!t out of each other.<br />So the blight can naturally heal itself. The song may help it along a bit, and sealing the DO again would no doubt help cut the supply of blight. But they're not essential for it.<br />Could be book 6 or 7. Or 9 or 10. Maybe 4 or 5. 1 or 2 may mention. Don't think 3 does. Could do.<br />As you can tell, not really sure where it says that. But it does and you know it.


created: 2005-09-10 20:37:32
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that the blight can heal itself given time like it did at the end of TEOTW, but that the song could definately help to speed that process if defeating the dark one doesn't do it. If the blight can heal itself like it did, though, I wonder why the Blight in Seanchan has not receded in all of these years. Maybe there has to be some kind of victory over the shadow for it to recede? I don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-11 02:10:09
subject: <b>Aiel</b>
body:
Dont the Aiel sing after battle? If them and the Ogier started singing, The Tinkers might recognise their singing and join in etc.<br /><br />Actually, every Aiel clan Chief and Wise One knows the Song, as they were all decended from the Daishan Aiel, and so would all have seen their ancestors singing it in the galss columns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-11 13:20:55
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with your theory.  About the Nym, how do we know that there are not Nym in Seanchan?  We don't.  So there may be hope for that yet.


created: 2005-09-12 14:14:12
subject: <b>why always the comparison to our world?</b>
body:
Why in so many theories do I see comments like &quot;we don't have it in our world&quot; and then the reasoning that at the end of the last battle it therefor must be removed?  This is a book of fiction not some religous relevation....PLEASE understand that we don't need any more cooky religions like scientoligy!!


created: 2005-09-14 05:46:46
subject: <b>to dacole</b>
body:
you &lt;do&gt; realise that RJ has said that it's the same world, don'tcha?<br /><br />and so following that crazy logic, one might assume that we can draw some parallels<br /><br />knowing RJ, he'll keep with this whole 'the same world' thing, quite strictly<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 11:36:15
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
First off, just because Rand and the Aiel clan chiefs (and wise ones) have heard the song, does not mean they know the song.  Also, the Tinkers have clearly forgotten it.  How would they just 'remember' it?  I think it is much more likely that defeating the DO and sealing him in a whole prison will remove his touch from the world.  It is clear that he (and Ishy) have been able to touch the world at least somewhat in the past 3,000 years.<br /><br />Also, I agree with Linda.  The Blight moves back and forth.  It gains land after a major victory for the DO, and loses it with major losses.  <br /><br />I think that the Blight will die back over time after the DO is re-sealed.  It might take a long time, and the work of many ogier tree singers to help, but without the Nym, the Song of the Aiel will not be useful.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-23 17:29:54
subject: <b>Power music</b>
body:
I found it interesting that in the recent Q&amp;A at DragonCon the question was asked if music could be created with the power, and the answer was yes.  I thought the possibilities opened up from that question were interesting to ponder.


created: 2005-09-29 14:41:34
subject: <b>Somewhat off-topic</b>
body:
But I want Rand to go give the song to the Tinkers. They aren't descended from the Aiel anymore, so they won't 'remember' anything, but if he tells them everything, I think they'll take the Dragon's word for it.<br /><br />Seriously, the Song lives amongst the Aiel. It ticks me off that the Athan'miere don't get to hear it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-04-04 16:19:46
subject: <b>where have all the nym gone (ok done with singing)</b>
body:
it's a good theroy that the Seanchan posibly have some nym left over from the AoL. *haven't seen any facts to support this but it is still an idea* but if not there then where would they get there nym. The Green Man's tree.  I think a peace of him is still alive and kept alive when loyal sang to it (don't remember the quote and don't have the books in front of me) but that would be a prime spot to start the singing, might even bring him back to life (but that might be a streach although we don't know what it takes to make nym). and to the other comment<br /><br />&quot;I found it interesting that in the recent Q&amp;A at DragonCon the question was asked if music could be created with the power, and the answer was yes. I thought the possibilities opened up from that question were interesting to ponder.&quot; <br /><br />isn't that what the song basicaly is, and aside from that look at Asmodean wonder what he could of done with the power and his muscal ability.


created: 2009-01-10 19:09:09
subject: <b>A thought</b>
body:
Maybe one of the steddings contains a nym.Or every stedding for that matter.The ogier may even be there protectors,Or servants.And by now you relise that there is a ter angreal that will help with growing the ways,they have to sing to that.


created: 2005-09-13 09:25:35
subject: <b>Very nice, Saltwater</b>
body:
Impressive.  How ever did you come up with this?  Everything makes sense.  I am going to do some re-reading now!


created: 2005-09-13 09:49:31
subject: <b>I'm Impressed</b>
body:
You know, when I ready the premise of this theory I thought it was another of the over-imaginative speculations that sometimes show up here.  But you&#8217;re argument was well enough presented to actually change my mind.  Thank you.<br /><br />I&#8217;m still not entirely convinced, but you have convinced that it&#8217;s possible.  It would be an interesting twist on all the &#8220;twice dawns the day&#8230;&#8221; visions of what has to happen to Rand.  <br />


created: 2005-09-13 09:51:46
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
I've always been in favor of this theory and comparing the passage of time for Mat's group and Elayne's group is one more piece of evidence which tells me that this must be true.<br /><br />Very good job NaClH2O, kudos to you! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 09:53:48
subject: <b>a thought that just occurred</b>
body:
I also believe that Moiraine will be back for Tarmon Gaidon to help Rand and the Light's forces and who knows, maybe she'll arrive too late to be helpful and that is when Avi's TimeTravelling comes into play...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 09:57:22
subject: <b>Excellent Theory</b>
body:
I really like your theory.  It's very similar (identical conclusion) to one by Light in the Night, but you've really hammered out the timing.  I think it would have been even better if you had provided quotes from Mat's POV that supported your idea of the Seanchan attack taking place an hour after the gateway, but that's a small detail.  Great job.<br /><br />Who wants to speculate on Aviendha's baby and time travel?


created: 2005-09-13 10:26:34
subject: <b>Wasn't this already done?</b>
body:
By Light in the Night I think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 10:30:08
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Your theory is well written, and I like it, but I disagree.  The main reason is Avi's POV.  She is weaving the gateway as she was taught by Elayne.  If this is the case, Elayne shold also weave gateways that travel through time.  Also, Avi mentions that if she could only remember how to do it like she did the first time to try to escape Rand, it would be bigger.  This emphasizes that she is using the weave that Elayne taught her.  In Elayne's POV we have no mention that Avi is making a gateway in a different manner.<br /><br />Your best argument is the position of the sun. I have nothing to go against what you said except to offer that Jordan made a mistake.  I will be the first to agree with you that that is a weak argument.  Maybe he made a mistake in assuming that the sun should have changed, or he made an error.<br /><br />As for Mat, it is very easy to believe that he told everyone else to report back every hour, but that he ignored that himself in his search for Olver.  It is the kind of thing Mat would do.  He feels personally responsible for Olver.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 10:43:31
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I must be a little sceptical here.<br /><br />You say that the event of the Seanchan attack is similar to Elayne and Mat, but I believe it is not.<br />The Seanchan invasion entered mostly from the sea into Ebou Dar, and then the fighting began. The Seanchan would not have any reason to go north to the farm before they had secured the city. Not before the damane had felt the use of the Bowl of the Winds.<br />The use of the Bowl probably took some time, and the Raken appeared slightly after. That is because it takes time to fly from Ebou Dar to the Farm. The Sul'dam and damane appeared a good while after that again, after everybody was through the gateway and Elayne had begun the unweaving. Again, that is because it takes time to transport people up from the city. More time than required for the first scouts to fly in.<br /><br />I still think it is the curving of the earth that caused the different angle. You don't actually have to go that far to see a difference, and we don't know if the farm lay stright north or perhaps northeast.<br /><br />Also, when the sun is past it's noon peak, and the sun seems even lower when they go through the gate, that must mean that it is later on the day. Not earlier. Unless they went so far back that the sun was on the other side of the peak again. But that would mean that it did not only sit lower on the sky, but also in a different direction. And the &quot;the sun had not fallen nearly two hours worth&quot; quote that comes afterwards implies that the sun was not rising again, but was still falling.<br />So if the gate allowed for any timeshift at all, that would be forward in time. But that is not necessary to explain the other events as I said before. I think the attack on the farm happened long after the attack on the City.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 10:50:40
subject: <b>Not convinced...</b>
body:
As someone has already mentioned, Aviendha learned the Gateway from Elayne, which means the weave must be identical. I think it is just a case of Aviendha having less Talent for Travelling than Elayne.<br /><br />Also, remember the thing about the fireballs, and how when you learn a second weave for something, it almost never works as well as the first? Aviendha made her first Gateway in a different way, and even though she has forgotten how, I think that it was the weave that 'set' in her mind.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- Order burns to clear his path --</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 10:55:49
subject: <b>Re: Aviendha's Gateway</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Obviously picking apart a weave isn&#8217;t terribly unique, at least to the Aiel. So Aviendha&#8217;s unique talent is not that. Still, she must have one, what is it?</b></font><br /><br />Aviendha has talent to read residues.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>&#8220;The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha&#8217;s.&#8221; tPoD &#8220;To Keep the Bargain&#8221;.<br /><br />Why does it take so much of Aviendha&#8217;s power? Some would say that it&#8217;s because Aviendha has a block of sorts due to the trauma associated with the first time she made a gateway, to run from Rand.</b></font><br /><br />It is very difficult to learn a second way, how to create a weave and as Aviendha said she don't remember, how she had made it, when she was running from Rand. <br /><br />The fact, that she had made it without knowing of what she's doing (she probably didn't even know that something like Traveling exists) indicates, that she may have the talent for Traveling.<br /><br />As for time traveling, I don't know. Position of the sun may be only a small mistake by Jordan.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In the same time period, Elayne and Co. have Traveled by gateway, had a ride which Reanne said should take about two hours, arrived at the Kin farm, quelled a panic at the farm, organized who would take part in using the Bowl of Winds, sorted through the collection of junk, ter&#8217;angreal and angreal, demonstrated linking for the Windfinders, and then used the Bowl of Winds! It wasn&#8217;t until after the Bowl of Winds had been used that the Seanchan invaded. They all feel the saidar being weaved by the Seanchan damane, and they see two tor&#8217;raken, one of which they kill. Renaile tries to open a gateway to her ship from the hilltop, which fails, and Elayne convinces her the Bargain isn&#8217;t yet complete.</b></font><br /><br />A quote from the Path of Daggers, ch. 1 :<br />&quot;Some of those fisherman stood gaping, hands idle on the lines, staring at a huge array of tall vessels and smaller that purposefully rode the winds hard breath, shattering swells with bluff bows, slicing swells with narrow, their banner a golden hawk with talons clutching lightning, a multitude of streaming banners like portents of storm. East and north and on, and the wind reached the broad, ship-filled harbor of Ebou Dar.&quot;<br /><br />This happens at the same time as events from the courtyard. Saenchan ships are still on the open sea and it takes some time for ships with sails to cover distances. And when Elayne and Co. started to channel, using the Bowl, they wouldn't be able to sense anything distant. So it could be that they started shortly before the attack and finisched in the middle of it. People at the farm wouldn't be able to sense it, because it was faint at that distance and there was strong channeling closer.<br /><br />If she has that talent, it is very dangerous. It can have the same effect on the pattern as balefire if you change something in the past, but I can imagine the use of it - When all hope is lost, with the Shadow winning, Rand perhaps dead, she can travel in time to gain a chance to change events.


created: 2005-09-13 12:02:50
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
First of all, as it was mentioned above - position of the sun is very tricky subject. For example, if your Travel ~100 miles due east - it would take full about full hour of your time. We don't know how far was the farm and what direction, but if we assume it was northeast about 200 miles - the position of the sun would be about what Elayne was talking. But traveling through the gateway took some time, so the position of the sun would be even lower then after instantenious traveling.<br /><br />Second, I would argue that Traveling in time is not possible. We have strong proof that even DO can't change the time - but having possibility to Travel through time via gateways contradicts that. Thus, traveling through time is not possible and time-gateways are not possible.


created: 2005-09-13 12:11:42
subject: <b>Some comments ...</b>
body:
First, I agree that Avi's gateway travels through time.  But, I still think it's forward, not backward.<br /><br />Let's look at the 3 key pieces of evidence you offer for it being backward in time:<br /><br />1. Elayne thinks the sun is lower in the sky than it had been in the stableyard.<br /><br />Since the sun was already past noon when they left the stableyard, the most logical explanation is that Elayne thinks it's LATER in the day than it should be, not earlier.<br /><br />While I agree that the sun would appear lower in the sky had they traveled backward in time (since the sun was near it's zenith when they left), it also would have appeared further east in the sky than it had been when they left the stableyard - something Elayne would surely have noticed and commented on had that been the case (since the only way THAT could be true is if they time-traveled).    In my opinion, it's easier to believe Elayne dismissing the sun being further west in the sky (i.e. more time had elapsed than she thought) than further east (i.e. they traveled backward in time).<br /><br />2. The timing of the Seanchan attack.<br /><br />I agree with Maginor's comments, so won't bother rehashing them here.<br /><br />3. Reanne's estimation of the time it would take to reach the Farm.<br /><br />This was the hardest part for me to reconcile, and actually had me believing you were correct about traveling backward in time, until I checked PoD.<br /><br />In PoD, Ch.3 &quot;A Pleasant Ride&quot; (p.91 HC), Reanne says:<br /><br /><i>&quot;I'm sure we'll take over an hour to reach the farm, the way we're going, perhaps two, and you certainly don't want to waste two hours.&quot;</i><br /><br />This is AFTER they had all traveled through the gateway.  So, clearly, Reanne's comment cannot be used as evidence about the gateway's affect on time.  It could only have been used had she made the comment before they traveled through the gateway.<br /><br />Given this, I still believe they traveled forward in time.<br /><br />One last comment.<br /><br />When Avi opened the gateway to Seanchan to flee Rand in TFoH, she also traveled through time.  When they are preparing to return back to the Westlands from Seanchan, Rand comments that the sun was rising, and less than half it's ball was above the ocean.  Yet, when they return to the Westlands, it's still about 2 hours before dawn.<br /><br />This doesn't make sense, if there was no time travel involved.<br /><br />Apparently, Rand &amp; Avi were on the east coast (boardering the Aryth Ocean) in the southern hemisphere of Seanchan during the episode (because Rand was watching the sun rise over the ocean, there was snow on the ground, and it was  Sept 1st at the time, according to Steven Cooper's chronology). From the BWB, Cairhien (near where Rand &amp; Avi return to) is rougly 12K miles east (and maybe 5K miles north) of where they were in Seanchan.<br /><br />So, if the sun were just rising in Seanchan when Rand and Avi returned to the Westlands (say 7:00a, since the sun was in the northern hemisphere at the time), it should have been ~7:00p (i.e ~12hrs later in the day) in Cairhien (assuming the world is Earth, and therefore 25K miles in circumference at the equator; and assuming 24hr days), not ~4:00a (i.e. 2hrs before dawn).<br /><br />Of course, Rand notices the sun in Seanchan before the encounter with the Seanchan patrol, so we don't know how much time elapsed before he and Avi actually returned. But, the time elapsed would have to have been ~9hrs for it to have been 2hrs before dawn. <br /><br />But, Rand followed Avi through the gateway to Seanchan at about the time he was ready to go to bed - say ~9:00p or 10:00p (they go to bed early and rise early - farmers hours). So, they were only gone for a total of maybe 6-7hrs, and a good chunk of that was while Rand was keeping Avi warm in the igloo (i.e. before he noticed the sun's position).  So, the encounter with the Seanchan patrol probably only lasted, at most, an hour or so (and probably less).<br /><br />Given all that, Avi's gateway must have traveled through time during this episode also (or RJ made TWO mistakes - highly unlikely).  From this analysis, it was either ~15hrs in the future or ~9hrs in the past (for simplicity, I'm ignoring the possibility that it was more than 1 day off).  We have no way of knowing which, from this episode alone.  But, combining it with the Bowl of Winds episode, I believe it was 15hrs in the future.<br /><br />Perhaps the amount of time in the future is a function of  the distance Traveled?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 12:15:43
subject: <b>i totally agree</b>
body:
about avis gateway being identical to elaynes, i disagree. From comments about aes sedai fireballs (where it is stated that a hand motion, which is &quot;not part of the weave&quot; is nessecary to achieve the same result as wise ones/seafolk) one can conlude that simply weaving a wave might not be all there is to channeling. Another clue is healing where two women using the same waves achieve different results (the one healing a bruise, the other healing a broken leg which probably requires the conversion of blood cells into bone cells [excuse my ignorance in biology])<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The use of the Bowl probably took some time, and the Raken appeared slightly after. That is because it takes time to fly from Ebou Dar to the Farm. The Sul'dam and damane appeared a good while after that again, after everybody was through the gateway and Elayne had begun the unweaving. Again, that is because it takes time to transport people up from the city. More time than required for the first scouts to fly in.</b></font><br />Scouts are used to scout, nothing wrong with them scouting a 10 mile radius around the city even before the attack. The appearance of the suldam was normal, the attack was probably under way while the bowl was used. suldam were dispatched on to'raken immidiately.<br /> <br /><font size="-1"><b>We don't know how far was the farm and what direction, but if we assume it was northeast about 200 miles - the position of the sun would be about what Elayne was talking</b></font><br />But we do know. It was only a few miles north (after all they could see the city from there)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 13:27:14
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
how many times have you read PoD?<br /><br />I like it. The theory, not necessarily PoD. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 13:54:46
subject: <b>what about...</b>
body:
the fact that the seanchan may just have arrived at the farm a few hours after they had secured ebou dar??<br /><br />not saying i disagree though<br />good points


created: 2005-09-13 14:10:22
subject: <b>Lower can mean south, too</b>
body:
I like your theory.  I don't agree with the conclusion, but nicely done.<br /><br />One thing many seem to be missing is that the sun would appear lower even if you went directly north.  Moving a significant distance north (away from equator in this case) will cause the sun to appear as much lower from peak as the same distance east or west would (not quite exact unless you are starting on the equator at noon, but close enough).  It just would be closer to a different horizon.


created: 2005-09-13 14:18:35
subject: <b>I have to disagree</b>
body:
Nice work, Salt, but I totally disagree with this theory. Firstly, I think that Travelling back in time is impossible in that universe. The biggest clue comes from the Dark One ...<br /><br />LoC (Prologue) - <i>Rahvin, dead in his pride. He served well, yet even I cannot save him from balefire. Even I cannot step outside of time... </i><br /><br />I think Jordan has established time as being absolute. You can experience time moving very slowly or extremely fast e.g. TAR, portal stones or a vacuole. But you can never go back - and thus the Dark One's frustration that he cannot save Rahvin. Balefire only burns a thread back, but it doesn't create an alternate reality, which Aviendha's by implication would.<br /><br />If we look at the pertinent scene you are referring to, we see the gholam enter the room where Moridin was watching the gateway ...<br /><br />TPoD (Unweaving) - <i>Not the One Power, but something that made it ... itch, if not quite in the same way. Curiosity had brought it here... Its nostrils flared again, although it was not by scent that it tracked those who could channel. The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north. To follow, or not?... </i><br /><br />So clearly the gholam sensed the gateway opening and its destination opening, with all the relevant channeling at the same time. If Aviendha had taken them a few hours back then the channeling to the North would have lured the gholam first (because it would technically happen first), but he went for this original location first - to investigate the True Power and the One Power, which happened prior to the channeling to the North.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 14:47:30
subject: <b>'Twice dawns the day...' ?</b>
body:
hmmm...time travel.  Interesting.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Loki <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> A Wily Fox <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 16:20:44
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
Although I'm not convinced.  The Seanchan showing up on the farm when they did seems about right.<br /><br />Not sure what exactly Jordan was getting at with the sun business.  Could be that they don't have watches; could be that something funny was happening with the rate of time's flow; could be that she did move them through time.  Forward?<br /><br />But ingenious thinking.  I voted thumbs up.


created: 2005-09-13 16:34:51
subject: <b>Nice thoughts</b>
body:
I will have to do some rereading of my own, but I voted yes because it is a well reasoned and well written theory. Good stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 16:36:07
subject: <b>Sidious comment</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>TPoD (Unweaving) - Not the One Power, but something that made it ... itch, if not quite in the same way. Curiosity had brought it here... Its nostrils flared again, although it was not by scent that it tracked those who could channel. The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north. To follow, or not?...</b></font><br />At first glance, this comment &quot;proves&quot; that the gateway was not a gateway through time. But if we assume that the golam is not extremely sensitive, it could not sense a gateway 'miles' away. But if it could not, then what did it sense? Well, it sensed a circle of 13 woman using the bowl. The timing would be right. <br />(I realize that this is a bit farfetched)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 16:40:57
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
You did a good job there salt...Although It's very fragile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sha'mad Conde, Thunder Walker <br /><br /><br />&lt;3 One-man fanclub for Elayne, and proud to be &lt;3 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br />I honestly think that the hate of Elayne is generated by an evil organization of girls (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />) jealous of her beauty. And I'm dead serious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 16:43:09
subject: <b>I gave you a thumb up, too,</b>
body:
Nice catches on the sun.<br /><br />It could be a way to explain &quot;twice dawns the day&quot;, but<br />going back in time doesn`t seem right to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Avienda used Elayne`s weave.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 16:50:25
subject: <b>Well I like it</b>
body:
Really nice first theory submittal Salt, really nicely organized and well supported with pertinent quoted passages from the books. <br /><br />That said though, there's arguments against your conclusion, which others have already touched upon, and I wish there was more supporting evidence for it, because I think RJ really is trying to tell us something with regards to Aviendha's gateways, other than just her obvious difficulty in making them in a way different from how she first did it unconsciously under the stress of great need.<br /><br />Elayne's thought to herself about the sun seeming lower in the sky has always puzzled me.  One of those little things that seems to be of no account really at the time, but that we may find out later holds some importance. <br /><br />Not sure if I can completely agree with your conclusion, but given the evidence - if there really is something significant about the whole time thing during that whole event - it's the best one I've seen I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 17:02:09
subject: <b>Talathar</b>
body:
The Gholam is extremely sensitive... far more sensitive than any channeler could ever hope to be. There is a quote somewhere, but his sensitivity to channeling runs into miles.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 17:11:50
subject: <b>What about TP?</b>
body:
Not related to the theory..<br /><br />I always assumed that the other thing the Gholam senced:  &quot;Not the One Power, but something that made it ... itch, if not quite in the same way&quot;<br /><br />That this was Moridin channeling the True Power. Remember, he squeezed the life (and blood) from Madic unintentionally...<br />


created: 2005-09-13 17:19:26
subject: <b>Adding to sidious comments</b>
body:
Not only traveling back in time is not possible, but forward as well. Because if we assume that traveliing forward is possible then for the people in the future who steps through the gateway - it's traveling back in time, which is not possible. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-09-13 18:22:42
subject: <b>Glad to see someone else agrees with my view....</b>
body:
A few things to note:<br /><br />When someone says &quot;a few miles&quot;, I take that to mean just that; a few miles. Even in our modern-day world where we have cars and planes to speed us around, a couple would still be 2. &quot;A few&quot; would generally be 3-10 at most, not 100 or 200 miles. If someone told me they lived a few miles over that way, I would be thinking about 3-5 miles, myself. <br /><br />Something that should be kept in mind is that the Farm is a retreat used by the Kin, and they rotate their work schedules in and around the city of Ebou Dar. So it should be within a reasonable distance, maybe even within walking distance from town if that should become necessary. (On top of that, if you go 100 or 200 miles due north of Ebou Dar, it places you in Amadecia, and I think it fairly safe to assume that is not where the Kin's Farm is, given the White Cloaks view of channelers.) <br /><br />Also, time zones are measured east to west, and are roughly 1,000 miles wide, so even going 1-200 miles east or west doesn't displace you from that time frame. Plus, curvature of the earth is not distinguishable over short distances, but rather only at distant views of the horizon, so this is a rather weak argument to use for sun angles, IMHO.<br /><br />We can also see from Moridin's POV that it did not take very much time for them to get organized and go through the gateway. That is something RJ made quite clear. Everyone that is going is already in the stableyard waiting on Elayne, Nynaeve and Aviendha. Certainly no more time passed for taking a single step through a gateway, than Mat rounding up his Redarms out in Mol Hara Square, and getting them involved in the search for Olver.<br /><br />As for the actual Seanchan attack, we get a POV from Mat in WH after the fact:<br />&quot;Here and there a tower ended in a jagged top or a gap showed where a building had been destroyed, but in truth, the Seanchan conquest of Ebou Dar had occasioned little damage. They had been too fast, too strong, and in control of the city before more than scattered resistance could form.&quot; WH, An Unexpected Encounter.<br /><br />We can see from the quotes used in the theory that the Seanchan were attacking the city within the one-hour time frame of Mat leaving Mol Hara Square. The above quote lets us know the takeover of the city didn't take that long, either. The attack included the OP wielded by the damane, as witnessed by Mat in the city proper. It was also being used rather fiercely by the damane and windfinders. This is another POV from Mat when he is searching for Olver:<br /><br />&quot;At least two dozen ships were burning out on the wide expanse of the bay, maybe more, engulfed in flame from end to end. A number of others had already settled, only a bow or stern still above water and that sliding under. Even as he looked, the bow of a broad two-masted ship flying a large banner of red and blue and gold, the banner of Altara, suddenly flew apart with a roar, a boom like thunder, and fast-thickening tendrils of smoke wafted away on the wind as the vessel began settling by the head.&quot; ACoS, Promises to Keep.<br /><br />No doubt this sea-battle is the source of the massive amounts of saidar that the women finally sense at the Kin's Farm. And as you can see, it has already been going on for some little time before Mat witnesses it, since 24 or more ships are already damaged, sinking or sunk. <br /><br />However, if you will notice, the women with Elayne and Nynaeve don't feel any channeling on their roughly two hour journey to the Farm. No reference is made of massive amounts of saidar being used once they arrive at the Farm, or while Elayne sorts through the cache of angreal, or while the Namelle sisters talk with Elayne and Avi about questioning Ispan, or while the search is under way for the scattered Kinswomen. Then there's the protracted discussion about linking with the demonstration, and picking out who is going to join in the circle to use the BotW. Still, no one felt all the Power being used in Ebou Dar and in the bay. <br /><br />Not until after the Bowl is used do they feel the One Power battle back in Ebou Dar. I think it's rather clear that something is screwy with the time-frame throughout this whole episode.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 18:31:35
subject: <b>I dont agree.</b>
body:
&#8220;Everybody goes in a different direction. Make loops out from the Mol Hara, and try to be back after about an hour. Wait till everybody is back before you go out again.&quot;<br /><br />Now this is a very subjective statement. He could have meant/been interpreted be back after an hour of searching for him. Also, Mat is notorious for not following the rules. Even ones he sets himself. <br /><br />We dont really know how long he actually out there. All we have is a statement before the searching began of what he should have done. from what i rememeber, he saw the Seanchan coming up from the docks. (especially since thats how where the Seanchan landed.) In WH, i think i rememeber Mat coming from the docks after seeing Tylin off and it took him a couple hours to get back to the palace at a casual trot. While searchin for Olver, he would have crissed crossed back and forth between the palace and near the docks. So at least an hour would have passed if not more. Ill keep searching for more info, but nicely put together...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


