# w_comment

created: 2001-10-21 15:14:46
subject: <b>Woo hoo! Verinaana</b>
body:
The only thing cool about this theory is that I get to say Verinaana!<br /><br />While I doubt that there is any direct proof that Verin is not BA or one of the Forsaken.  The circumstantial evidence, in particular those from her P.O.V do add up to the fact that Verin is a good guy.<br /><br />About Verin poisoning Cadsuane.  AS are allowed (by the oaths at least) to use poison.  AS are not allowed to use the one power to take a persons life except against shadowspawn and in defense of their life or their warders.  And they cannot make a weapon with the one power.  Nothing precludes them from killing someone without using the power (such as poisoning or stabbing).  <br /><br />There is no doubt that the vial that Verin pocketed could be used to kill someone.  Sorilea gave it to her and mentioned that it was tasteless and that too much could make you sleep to long or even kill so she should be careful.  Who knows whether Verin was planning to kill or put her to sleep.  I lean toward the former though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 15:44:25
subject: <b>Gitara!</b>
body:
I seriously suggest everyone considers the idea that Verin is Gitara Moroso.  I mean come on.  I can easily see her faking her death right in front of Siuan and Moiraine then changing her identity.  Its very plausable.<br /><br />Please just think about it.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-21 15:55:07
subject: <b>To Three in a boat</b>
body:
As an answer to your first question: No, I don't think it's the most probable explanation to the current events. Far from it actually. As contrary to the Taimandred theory (which has several strong arguments speaking for it, despite it probably being false, come WH), there are NOT any such direct arguments regarding Verin. Most arguments are built on the general nature of Verin's behaviour, and the supposition that a suspicious nature has to do with the BA. I don't believe it has to be. In fact, it's easier to argue that it is not. I will believe Verin as Black-Ajah hunter when Robert Jordan says she is, but this far she has NOT acted as I could see a Black Ajah hunter act.<br /><br />Regarding Elza (not Etta), she was Compulsed by Verin in the Aiel tent. That is fully clear. The problem with the Black Ajah theory is that we actually see a full investigation by Verin of an Aes Sedai. We even see the questions she asks. The only thing we do NOT see are the specific orders given by Verin. Note that we see the questions, and NONE even hints about the Black Ajah. Verin does NOWHERE hint that she knows Elza is Black Ajah. In fact, she doesn't seem to care. We learn later, when all those Aes Sedai Verin has Compulsed want to swear fealty to Rand (strengthened by Elza's reaction at the end of WH), that at least part of Verin's order is that the Aes Sedai should do anything to make Rand come to Tarmon Gaidon. Verin's action against Cadsuane (trying to poison her) indicates the exact same thing. In fact, the only thing it seems we can say for sure from those actions, is that Verin wants Rand to reach the final battle. NOTHING about her knowing or wanting anything with the Black Ajah is indicated. In fact, she seems wary of EVERY Aes Sedai, although of course especially Red, not because their possible Black Ajah-hood, but because Verin can't be sure about their exact Agenda. Her Compulsion of the Aes Sedai in the Aiel tents, is a way to steer that Agenda, so that it follows her own. Especially the Reds would never act that way by themselves. Again, Verin did not specifically Compulse Elza. She Compulsed them all, without even inquiring more about their agenda beforehand. It does not indicate any Black Ajah investigation at all. Verin almost certainly did NOT find out Elza was Black (because she didn't ask such questions to the Aes Sedai she questioned as a POV).<br /><br />What do you mean that Verin certainly searches for something that has to do with Aes Sedai? Nothing indicates that. The Compulsion in the Aiel tent actually speaks AGAINST it rather than FOR it, since so few questions of the nature you suggest are asked.<br /><br />Isn't Verin's extreme interest in Rand much more explainable as being part of the 70-year plan? She has time and again shown an extreme interest in Rand as well as Perrin and Mat. She has expressed the importance of them coming to Tarmon Gaidon etc etc. Not one comment of the same strength has been uttered in POV or out loud regarding the Black Ajah. As far as not only people in Randland, but even the readers concern, Verin shows no particular interest in the Black Ajah. At least some POV should indicate it for me to think it's the most probable solution. Something to do with Tarmon Gaidon is much more likely as yet, in my opinion.<br /><br />Verin has not shown she knows of ANY Black sisters beyond the 13 who left the Tower. To argue that she shows no interest BECAUSE she hunts them, bears very little strength. Further evidence is needed.<br /><br />The problem with explaining away all incidents using another theory is that that theory has to be relatively specific to be used. Since I'm not further towards Verin's goals than that it has to do with Tarmon Gaidon, and almost certainly something that comes out of it, I can't argue that strongly. Nevertheless, I'm willing to try, because as far as I can see right now, Verin has not done anything that can't be explained in terms of her leading Rand towards Tarmon Gaidon. So while we might try to think the same way, we still seem to interpret what there is differently. If you want to discuss this more, I'm open for debate! It's quite an interesting subject to debate, although there is a tendency the debate becomes EXTREMELY long and tedious after a while...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 15:59:22
subject: <b>Verin is not Gitara Moroso</b>
body:
We know Verin (the Verin currently in existence) has been Aes Sedai under the name of Verin, for at least 70 years (taken from her own POV). Gitara died 20 years ago. Therefore, Verin is not Gitara Moroso.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 16:42:10
subject: <b>Verin Lies</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that Verin lied in GH when she catches up w/Ingtar &amp; Co. She tells them that Moiraine sent her, but later on Moiraine tells Rand that she did not send Verin. So one of them had to be breaking the oath about lying. I'm just assuming verin is the one who is not bound by that particular oath.<br /><br /><br />Wolfbrother2973<br />0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I didn't do it, and you couldn't catch me if I did&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" />:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-21 17:06:05
subject: <b>Verin lies, but...</b>
body:
it's not clear she has broken the Oaths. There are several more or less ingenious ways to circumvent the Oaths, and if anyone has mastered them, it's Verin.<br /><br />There is no particular reason for her to lie in that situation (if it breaks the Oaths and she isn't bound by the Oaths), and she has shown elsewhere that she is normally VERY clever in her way she speaks, although she does not actually break the Oaths. To break them in this particular situation, when she might even get caught doing it, would be more stupid than Verin seems to be. She was also not in any hurry, but had had plenty of time to formulate herself.<br /><br />It's more reasonable to believe she simply thought and spoke in such a way that it circumvented the Oaths, although she was still bound by them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 00:18:23
subject: <b>Just in Case</b>
body:
Just in Case you wanted another reason why this theory is incredibally stupid and impossible...i got one.  Messanna was hiding out in the white tower, and was sure she would be handed rand when the aes sedai elaida sent captured him.  Verin:a) was in camelyn  b)linked with allana had nowhere near rand's strength with the power, and c) helped free him from elaida's aes sedai.  Just thought i'd point out another gaping whole in this theory. Just for the record...I think that messanna could easilly be a character who has never appeared but only been mentioned.  like high lord samon (bel'al) and lord brend (sammael) before we found out who they were.  Maybe even the fat cook.  who knows!<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />the mad cow<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />the demon wolf<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 04:31:02
subject: <b>To Metallica-man2</b>
body:
As much as I would laugh my butt off to see Mesaana appear as the cook (Laras?), why would she help Min free Siuan and Leane after they were stilled?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 04:46:14
subject: <b>Maybe I had better make a revised edition of my theory...</b>
body:
I realise that I maybe went for overkill and mentioned everything that gave the slightest hint of her hunting the Black Ajah. Yubi started picking holes in a few of the less likely ones, but sometimes a critical eye is what you need to improve.<br /><br />I would like very much to see that theory dismissing her hunting the Black Ajah. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The reason why I think that mine is the most likely is that there are direct contradictions to any other theory I have heard proposed. The only thing against my theory is that while I can give explanations for the vast majority of her actions they might not be the most likely. But when you find a common explanation, it becomes the most likely overall. That is the way I look at it, however if you don't see it that way it is unlikely that you would agree with the theory. That's fair enough.<br /><br />I know your going to dispute this Yubi because you have your own ideas about Verin, but if you write a convincing theory  for the theorypost I'll give you credit. I can give you all the chapters I read to make my theory. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 08:48:03
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
Now I'm all confused. Those are some good arguments against Yubi, but without an idea of what else she could be up to I'm going to have to stick with Moridin. my argument against your idea that the 70 year plan has something to do with TG can be found in the name...70 years. How would Verin have any idea that TG was coming 70 years ago? Surely the first indicators (besides what Moiraine and Suian heard), would have been the increase in false dragons, that's only been recently.<br /><br />Perhaps Verin is a BA hunter, but now that TG is close, she has had to change her ways a bit. It's possible that she was a BA hunter with the aim of exposing the entire organistion with one crushing blow, meaning she couldn't reveal what she already knew of them. Now, because of the arrival of Rand, she's knows TG is approaching, so she can no longer try and search out the black. Instead, she doesn't even bother asking if a sister is black when they're compelled, it's much quicker to simply ensure that all of them follow Rand. She may also discover that they are BA, but her main aim is to make sure Rand defeats the DO, as everyone's should be. Then she can reveal the black afterwards if he wins, she can't dare to do it before she has found out the heads of the BA (which I doubt she has), as she needs the whole organisation to die or it will grow again (plus the others may well escape to fight at TG). After all, she does keep saying she doesn't want her plan to go to waste after so long, Rand's arrival could well mess up her revealing the black. Anyway, that's just a possible explanation for what we saw.<br /><br />On the Cadsuane front, I don't think Verin intended to kill her (yet). If I remember correctly, Sorilea said that 2 or 3 drops (not sure which) would put her to sleep, more would kill. However, just one drop aught to simply make you drowzy. I think that's what she wanted to do. Cadsuane is smart and far more powerful than Verin, with a lot more experience. To try and compell her when she is wide awake would be extremely dangerous, Verin doesn't risk much if there is a better way.


created: 2001-10-22 22:28:02
subject: <b>Right...thought about Cadsuane</b>
body:
That thing about Cadsuane.  When I read that (though this probably makes no sense considering EVERYONE has proved me wrong on more than one occasion) I took it to mean that VERIN thought CADSUANE was Black Ajah.  She was going to poison her, but Cadsuane said or did something that made Verin realize she was NOT BA.  Thus, she was sure of her at last.<br /><br />Yeah, its probably crap that everyone caught onto about five million years ago, but just smile and nod and I'll be happy.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Katiya<br />*Life-Time Supply Available Upon Request*</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 10:25:23
subject:
<b>Smiling and nodding <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Seriously, it's quite natural to think Verin might have thought Cadsuane was Black Ajah, since Verin was apparently very cautious around her. That's definitely the thought of thinking that has brought forward the &quot;Verin hunts the Black Ajah theory&quot;, and it's slightly plausible, although not probable as far as I can see.<br /><br />In an earlier chapter (at the same place where Verin gets the poision, I believe), we see how she thinks about Cadsuane, and how dangerous Verin thinks she could be. She thinks about the legends around Cadsuane, thinking how even the believable parts would make her dangerous. Verin seems slightly irritated she does not know what Cadsuane is up to.<br /><br />The legends of course does NOT include anything about the Black Ajah, so Verin is apparently bothered by Cadsuane's presence at the very least partly for reasons NOT regarding possible Black Ajah-hood. Combined with Verin's general nature of mistrusting everyone in general and every Aes Sedai in particular, as long as she does not know of the agenda of that person (a personality trait in my opinion, in no way related to the Black Ajah, but to the different nature of people'sagendas at large), it's reasonable to think this is just general concern, rather than concern particularly related to the Black Ajah.<br /><br />This is also strengthened by the fact that nothing Cadsuane says seems to in any way make it clear she is not Black (whatever Verin knows). What she does say though is satisfying Verin, and that is unlikely if Verin suspected, or even thought about the possibility, of Cadsuane being Black.<br /><br />But then again, if you ask someone else, you will probably get another answer...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 20:23:37
subject: <b>In case anyone cares...</b>
body:
I found that quote in GH where Verin shows up and says Moiraine sent her:<br /><br />&quot;Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,&quot; Verin announced with a satisfied smile.  &quot;She thought you might need me.  Such a gallop I've had.  I thought I might not catch you short of Cairhien.  You saw that village, of course?  Oh, that was very nasty, wasn't it?  And that Myrddraal.  There were ravens and crows all over the rooftops, but never one went near it, dead as it was.  I had to wave away the Dark One's own weight in flies, though, before I could make out what it was.  A shame I did not have time to take it down.  I've never had a chance to study a--&quot; Suddenly her eyes narrowed, and the absent manner vanished like smoke.  &quot;Where is Rand al'Thor?&quot;<br /><br />Ingtar grimaced.  &quot;Gone, Verin Sedai.  Vanished last night without a trace.  Him, the Ogier, and Hurin, one of my men.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The Ogier, Lord Ingtar?  And your sniffer went with him?  What would those two have in common with...?&quot;  Ingtar gaped at her, and she snorted.  &quot;Did you think you could keep something like that secret?&quot;<br /><br />(And then they talk about how Perrin has the talent for being a &quot;sniffer&quot; like Hurin.  Then...)<br /><br />Verin glanced at Perrin, and he shifted uneasily.  &quot;A new sniffer, just when you loose your old one.  How... providential.  You found no tracks?  No, of course not.  You said no trace.  Odd.  Last night.&quot;  She twisted in her saddle, looking back north, and for a moment Perrin almost thought she was going to ride back the way she had come.<br /><br />Ingtar frowned at her.  &quot;You think their disappearance has something to do with the Horn, Aes Sedai?&quot;<br /><br />Verin settled back.  &quot;The Horn?  No.  No, I... think not.  But it is odd.  Very odd.  I do not like odd things until I can understand them.&quot;<br /><br />(end of quote)  Obviously, this is just after Rand and Loial and Hurin went through the Portal Stone.  As for the first bit, Verin says quite plainly that Moiraine sent her.  Moiraine later says she did not.  Is this a lie?  Well, there was obviously no twisting of words on Verin's part.  Remember, though, an Aes Sedai can speak a lie if she believes it to be the truth.  So Moiraine could have made some offhand comment about how she wished a sister were with the three ta'veren boys, and Verin could have take this as an order (or suggestion, maybe) to go haring off after them.  Most of the rest of this paragraph seems to be Verin's trademark prattling.  Except the last bit.  She quite abruptly stops being an airhead and asks after Rand.  So, obviously she is interested in him (but then again, knowing what he is, what Aes Sedai wouldn't be?).  She seems to find it odd that they disappeared the night before.  I interpreted her looking back as her knowing the Portal Stone was there, and what it was, and that it was likely the little band had camped near it.  Also (this is a shot in the dark, but who knows?)  We know Lanfear was in the other world with Rand &amp; co, right?  Perhaps Verin sensed her channeling into the Portal Stone...  Maybe, but not likely.  Anyway, that's my two cents.  Interpret the quote however much you like, whatever way you like.  Oh, yes, and this can be found on pages 231-232 in the paperback Tor edition of &quot;The Great Hunt&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 11:44:12
subject: <b>YES and no..</b>
body:
i think this is a good theory but u kinda screwed it up a bit with ur argument.<br />but the one thing u missed is that near the end of winter's heart verin leaves the best evidence that supports ur theory.<br />she brings a finger to her lips while in thought. now in a crown of swords, if u recall, alviarin notices mesaana do this exact same gesture and then thinks to herself, where she has seen this same gesture.<br />the problem with this, is that theodrin uses this gesture as well in a crown of swords, during the chapter of 'the oath'.<br />so a bit shaky but i do think it holds some water! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-17 23:57:50
subject: <b>Another supporter of the Verin/Mesaana argument</b>
body:
I also agree that Verin is Mesaana, and therefore I would like to offer the following support.  First of all, the obvious reason for most people to think that Verin is not Mesaana is that she is not currently in the White Tower.  However, this is insignificant for a Forsaken, because they can Travel.  Therefore, she would not have to be living in the Tower to be able to maintain control over Alviarin and thus Elaida.  We have seen this in a number of instances in the past, for example Sammael and Carridin, when Carridin was in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Now for the supporting arguments.<br /><br />First of all, it is widely known that Mesaana had a desire to be a researcher in her previous life and that it was her inability to fulfill her dream that turned her towards the Dark One.  Verin is often referenced as performing some sort of research and has often been said to be more interested in her own personal research than the goals of others.<br /><br />Secondly, when she could not become a researcher, Mesaana became a teacher.  Verin is also referenced in many instances as teaching, especially with respect to Elayne, Nynave and Egwene, however there is no doubt that Verin is obsessed with her research.<br /><br />Next, Verin was in the White Tower when the trap was laid for Egwene, Elayne and Nynave to go to Tear.  It is known that Mesaana was the one to spring that trap, and it can be argued that Verin started their voyage by giving Egwene the ring, which gives her access to Tel'aran'rhiod.  In fact, Verin gives Egwene all the clues that she needs to stumble across the Black Ajah's plot in The World of Dreams, thus creating an argument that this is what is meant by Mesaana springing the trap.<br /><br />In this same timeframe, Egwene sees a white flash in the hallway on her way to see Verin.  It has been written on this board that people think that was Lanfear.  This would also fit into the argument, because Lanfear was supposed to be working with Mesaana to spring the trap.<br /><br />Fast forwarding to A Crown of Swords, when Alviarin makes a reference to Mesaana telling her the events of Dumai's Wells.  This information would be first hand for Mesaana if she were Verin, because Verin was at Dumai's Wells with Perrin.<br /><br />Another point of note is that Mesaana was not seen within the last battle in A Winter's Heart.  This would be explained if she were posing as Verin.  Mesaana could not attack like the other Forsaken, if she was already involved in the situation as Verin.  All of the other Forsaken seem to be present at the event, so it seems notable that Mesaana is not referenced as being there and no explanation is given.  Additionally, her absence from the meeting of the Forsaken in A Winter's Heart could also be explained if she was with the Rand and a number of female channelers at the time.<br /><br />As far as physical appearance is concerned, Mesaana and Verin are both very similar.  They are both described as being fairly short and self conscious about it.  Both are often described as trying to muster every inch of height they can when interacting with individuals noticeably taller than they are.  Additionally, Mesaana is mentioned as having the tendancy to click her tongue and press her fingers to her lips.  These are both tendancies that Verin demonstrates.<br /><br />Finally there are the other arguments that have been made about oddities of Verin.  They are her knowledge of Dark Prophecies, her ability to lie to Rand about Moiraine sending her in The Great Hunt, her knowledge of the Portal Stones, her use of Compulsion and her secret plans with the sisters who have now sworn loyalty to Rand.  Also, let's not forget that Verin has been described as being untrustworthy by Moiraine and also as somewhat of a recluse, which is one of the hints that is given for possible identities of the Forsaken.  She also pretty much seems to come and go as she chooses, at least moreso than most of the other Aes Sedai.  Lastly, there is the fact that she is bonded to a Warder that she is almost always without and could be said to be hiding from.  I know this is an argument against Verin being Forsaken, however let's not forget that it is Demandred that explains the Forsaken's information about bonding comes from Mesaana's knowledge.<br /><br />All in all, it seems like this could be the strongest case for Mesaana's identity given the lack of knowledge of other proposed possibilities and the importance given to Mesaana's character.


created: 2002-12-13 23:37:24
subject: <b>I think that Verin is a Lightfriend</b>
body:
Verin is a lightfriend.  Now, even if she can lie this does not prove she's a darkfriend.  She could have removed the oaths with the oathrod without being a darkfriend.  Also, she HELPS Rand most of the time and she is old.  Moiraine had known her for a long time and she was seen in The Great Hunt, which was around the time the Forsaken were just being released.  I find it hard to believe that Mesaana would be able to secure a spot for herself so quickly.  <br /><br />Note: The two retired sisters that Moiraine visited in the Great Hunt were Aedeleas and Vandene.  Not lightfriends<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I a star beneathe the stairs?<br />Am I a ghost upon the stage?<br />Am I your anything?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 19:07:53
subject: <b>No I completely disagree</b>
body:
That's completely incorrect. Verin was going to poison Cadsuane because she thought that CADSUANE might be of the Black Ajah. And of course Verin is going to know a whole lot of history...because what is her Ajah again? oooo yaaaa...BROWN!!!! The Brown Ajah spends most of their time learning about the past ages so DUH!! What Brown wouldn't know a whole lot of history? And another thing that proves that Verin is NOT Mesaana is that Mesaana confronts Alviarin in the White Tower even though her face is unrecognizable. And where is Verin? She was still in Cairhien at the time. And of course being one of the Forsaken, Mesaana is going to know how to Travel, but Verin, in Cairhien was under almost a 24/7 supervision of the Aiel Wise Ones so Verin wouldn't have any time to Travel back and forth from the White Tower and Cairhien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aquaria<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-20 18:06:39
subject: <b>Not quite sure what to think.</b>
body:
I think Verin could be a Darkfriend, but I don't not think she is Mesaana. Like it was said before (I don't remember who said it.) that only one of the Chosen were free before tEotW. Because it says in one of the other books about when she learn at the Tower as an Accepted with one of the other Aes Sedai.<br /><br />I believe she did lie when she met up with Rand and Ingar(sp?) in tGH because the Amyrlin sent her not Moiraine.


created: 2005-02-26 18:58:29
subject: <b>The nose says it all</b>
body:
Verin is not Mesaana. Remember when Verin traveled Hurin. Hurin is a sniffer. He can smell violence. You do not become a Forsaken by being a nice person. Hurin would of smelled the violence done by her if she was a Forsaken.


created: 2005-12-11 14:18:16
subject: <b>No Way</b>
body:
First of all Mesaana is in the tower. And Sorilea is a Darkfreind. So if she thought that Cadsuane who is black ajah was going to tell on her why not get someone who has to obey you kill her and you won't get any blame at all. Besides isn't Verin there at the cleansing? If she was how would Mesaana be punished when she sat in the Tower the whole dang tiime?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-23 14:58:46
subject: <b>Compulsion...</b>
body:
Lmfao, funny theory. Perhaps the biggest piece of evidence disproving it is her lack of knowledge of reas compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-29 21:48:29
subject: <b>Verin is evil, but</b>
body:
I agree that Verin is a darkfriend.  I became sure of that when Verin held back all those notes explaining what the various Tar'angreal did, when she gave them to Egwene.<br /><br />As has been pointed out earlier though, Verin has been planning something for 70 years, and no Forsaken has been loose that long.  That is the ONLY reason I do not agree with Verin being Mesaana.<br /><br />As for Verin aiding Rand, well, the Dark One ordered all the Forsaken and all Darkfriends to &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot;  The dark one believes that Rand must face him in the final battle, or nothing will come of it.


created: 2001-10-21 01:49:37
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
Sounds good, but what's going to happen to Rand if Alanna dies? Won't he be consumed by the death like Lan?<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-21 02:57:20
subject: <b>no...</b>
body:
I think he's pretty much covered with being bonded to Min, Avi, and ZElayne<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 08:14:07
subject: <b>Why would he be covered?</b>
body:
We have no indication that Greens would suffer significantly less from a Warder dying, despite often having more than one Warder.<br /><br />I think Rand will get about as depressed as any warder when their Aes Sedai die, were Alanna to die. It's simply the way the bonding works, and the Alanna bond is of the normal type (the other bond is probably close, but it's hard to say for sure).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 08:49:23
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Wouldn't it also mean that Rand could be drained of his strength simultaneously by all 4 if they were all injured at the same time? I don't think there is an advantage for Rand here, not when weighed up with the negatives.


created: 2001-10-21 13:44:54
subject: <b>aha!!!!!!! I have a brain tumor Dont Kill Me For the random thoughts</b>
body:
This is a comment (no really) on perhaps just why RJ would have him married to three women (besides the obvious... hehe)<br />Anyways, lets think about this... He hasn't killed off any major characters in a long while.  Maybe he'll kill off a couple of the women in Rands harem.  (Not that i believe that. I bet that RJ is one of those guys who won't trade his properties in monopoly... lol) Anyhooooo, its possible that the fact Rand has three women, cross that, FOUR WOMEN, is that RJ plans on ganking two or three of them and the only thing that will hold Rand from sinking into ultimo depression is the other love interest(s) in his life.  I mean, isn't Elayne getting to be a pain in the butt?  Oh no, controversy!  You know, Morgase being queen in Nyneave's third accepted test mcould point to Elayne's demise and Morgase's reassention to the throne. *Evil chuckle*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 18:49:48
subject: <b>To Shattered Seal</b>
body:
I agree that RJ isn't going to kill any of those major characters off. The problem with Nynaeve's(sp?) accepted test where she sees Morgase as queen not Elayne is that the Ter'Angreal pulls the test out of your own mind. Elayne wouldn't be queen b/c Nynaeve doesn't know who she is, much less that she is the Daughter-Heir to the Rose Crown. They meet for the first time in the next chapter I am pretty sure. If the only queen Nynaeve knew was Morgase then surely she would think of Morgase as still being queen, especially since Morgase isn't very old. <br />


created: 2001-10-21 19:14:20
subject: <b>To beebe</b>
body:
It's clear the Accepted ter'angreal does NOT create the scenarios entirely out of the mind of the Accepted. Otherwise it's VERY unlikely that &quot;Sharina Sedai&quot; would be mentioned, who just happens to be the only existing (potential) Aes Sedai (potentially) stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve has never met her before going into the arches.<br /><br />Nevertheless, it's not clear exactly HOW the scenarios are created either, so Morgase being Queen there could, but does not necessarily do, point to Morgase ACTUALLY being Queen when that point in time comes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 15:04:25
subject: <b>Quick Thought....</b>
body:
Would it be safe to assume that Rand is also bonded to the baby(s), That Elayne is due with....  First off they do share his blood( They are his), also Elayne and hime were all ready bonded together when they concived.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Defender of the Free World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Professional Student of the &quot;Game&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> Watcher of the Unknown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 15:24:25
subject: <b>Regarding babies...</b>
body:
No, there is no reason to assume the babies are bound to Rand. The bond is made by the One Power, and I doubt it would be transferred to the babies, unless the babies are actually present when the bond is made. They weren't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 22:24:27
subject: <b>accepted ter'angreal</b>
body:
so if the accepted ter'angreal is the future, would this mean that malkarie is going to be remade and Lan king with his queen bieng Nyneave????


created: 2001-10-25 03:09:38
subject: <b>Not necessarily...</b>
body:
In my opinion, the Accepted ter'angreal is ONE possible future (like the ones that can be traveled to with Portal Stones. It's not necessarily the one that will be Reality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 14:02:38
subject: <b>Humph...</b>
body:
I don't recall reading anywhere that the bond drains the AS who makes it.  What good is it to give Lan all kinds of extra stamina and endurance if Moiraine just drops dead because he didn't take a nap?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 18:18:01
subject: <b>aes sedia benifts</b>
body:
we don't know the aes sedia's benifts o the bonf they are shrouded in mystery, we only have a superficial knowledge of bonding at all. so it would be hard to predict the effects to rand w/ that many bonds and the stamina thing but it is a unique situation in Randland.  there are 1 aes sedia to 1+warders but not 1 warder to multiple aes sedia no one knows about the effects.<br /><br />sorry that was long and repetitive i think faster than i type  <br />&#8220;Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!&#8221;<br /><br />&quot;Dovie'andi se tovya sagain!&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> boba fett would make a grat warder he's got a fast horse


created: 2002-01-31 20:22:13
subject: <b>Aren't there only two bonds?</b>
body:
Rand never refers to the bond with his girlfriends as more than one bond.  They may all be linked through it, but when Elayne made it, the singular was used(&quot;...twisting the three lines into one, changing it into the warder bond...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Note the singular. He seems to feel each woman as strongly as he does with the solo bond, since Min and Alanna felt similar when they were experiencing the same emotion, but he never says it feels like four different bonds in his head. The three girlfriends sharethe bond.  Being bonded to all four women at once would not have any more than double benefits if that.  Also don't forget, it may have something to do with channeling, in which case Min may not convey the benfits on her warder (in Shadow Rising, Moiraine tells Rand that healing someone who is channeling isn't as draining on the patient's energy.  Maybe the benefits of the bond come from the fact that it is a channeler holding the bond.  Also, Rand being a channeler may interfere with the bond in some ways beyond the inability to control him.  Finally, the bonds affect each other, as evidenced by Alanna's passing out for three days when Rand was bonded, and the increasing discomfort of her bond since he was bonded by his girlfriends.  Finally the reaction to Alanna's bonding was described as very uncomfortable, and creating strong sensations in Rand, and he showed no sign of anything like that when Elayne bonded him.  She even mentioned that &quot;...he did not even blink, but it was done...&quot;, just as if she expected a reaction.  Also she herself said (in FoH) that physical contact was necessary for the bonding, yet she bonded Rand while sitting in a chair across the room from him.  Finally, even though Alanna knew in PoD that Rand had been injured and Healed by Saidin, and his emotional state from Illian to Cairhien, Elayne couldn't tell from Far Madding to Caemlyn anything about him except a vague direction.  Far Madding and Caemlyn are much closer than the other two, closer in fact than nearly any two cities.  All in all, the rules for this kind of bond can't be expected to follow the normal run of things.  Don't bring up the Asha'man's bond either.  There is no evidence that it is at all similar to the Aes Sedai bond, and in fact Grady could tell from Ghealdan, that Sora, near Caemlyn, was missing him and that her knee hurt, while Elayn was again, unable to tell that much over a much shorter distance.  The rules for Warder bonds in the RPG are flat out wrong as seen in WH, so they are no help either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 12:33:48
subject: <b>Rands Bonds</b>
body:
I think the three warder bonds will cancel out - Rand has three people inside him (well, 2 beside himself) so he needs the extra warder bonds - one for each personality. <br /> Mor6an <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-11 17:50:09
subject: <b>Rand's link with his three pillow friends</b>
body:
Its occured to me that at some point one of these women is gonna be in a great deal of pain and Rand will jump into a trap in an attempt to help them. Or will have to abort one of his plans which was important. That could be one purpose of the bonds, but i think that yes this is a valid theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 20:16:36
subject: <b>Four times bonded, and four times branded, so shall the chosen be marked...</b>
body:
Hehe, it sounded good...<br /><br />On a more serious note, I'd like to know how his enhanced healing is impacted by the multiplied bond.  He's bonded at least twice with four times being a distinct possibly.  One would think the enhanced healing granted warders would be improved by that.  Of course, as a side bit of fun, the pain from all four could be set upon his shoulders on a bad day. &gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'd also like to know if the protections against shadow remain with a male warder, and also would like to know if Rand is impacted by the fact that Elayne has two warders, one of whom is female, combined with the fact that Rand is cross bonded with Allana and two other women.  Throw in the fact that two of the women are artificial first sisters, and we've got some wacko tobacco in the neighborhood.  <br /><br />Add in the strange genes of Min that allow her to see the bits of the pattern (it's assumable that this is genetic since channeling is), and we have potential for some REALLY strange stuff.<br /><br />Most of this is speculation, but it's nonetheless interesting.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />By the way, something the *characters* in the WoT have wrong (if not RJ...unless this was by design, which would be rather chilling).<br /><br />(Paraphrased from several instances of pronunciation of the following canticle):<br /><br />&quot;The dark one and the forsaken are bound.  Bound in Shayol Ghul by the Creator...&quot;<br /><br /><br />Unless LTT was the Creator, I'd say the Forsaken were bound by a ta'veren (sp?) at most, and a regular human at least....not the Creator.<br /><br />Maybe it's me.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br />0! = 1<br />0 &#161;&#214; &#161;&#222;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-16 00:17:10
subject: <b>In response to Subjugator, in defense of continuity.</b>
body:
The previous comment made about the &quot;inaccuracy&quot; of the quote from multiple characters in the Wheel of Time series is wrong. The books clearly state multiple times that the Creator sealed the Dark One (Shai'tan) away in a prison that was separate from the pattern itself. <br /> It was the efforts of mankind that &quot;bored&quot; a hole into that prison and similarly the efforts of mankind, Lews Therin Telamon in particular, that placed seals back on the prison of the Dark One. Granted the work of men cannot rival the original construct of the Creator, yet from this we clearly see that Robert Jordan in no way said or implied that Lews Therin imprisoned the Dark One at the beginning of time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I told you to make weapons, Taim. Show me just how deadly they are. Disperse the Shaido. Break them.<br />     -Rand al'Thor, to Mazrim Taim<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-30 15:39:03
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
There are aspects of bonding that are nullified by the person being bonded being a channeler. For instance, the Aes Sedai get some form of compulsion, but Alanna found that trying to compel Rand with the bond was like moving an oak tree with her bare hands, as she put it. It is quite possible there is more to the bond that is nullified by the person being bonded being a channeler. <br /><br />Come to think of it, between a channeler female and a non-channeler female the dynamics of the bond had changed as well. Who knows what Rand has gotten out of his bonds.


created: 2007-04-09 05:41:49
subject: <b>Teaching Rand tears</b>
body:
If Cadsuane wants to teach Rand tears and laughter before Tarmon Gaidon then she needs to break through the emotional wall he's built up. We know that warders experience a devastating sense of loss when their Aes Sedai is killed, so one way to drive an emotional battering ram through Rand's defences would be to kill one of those bonded to him - namely Alanna. Would Cadsuane be cold enough to kill a fellow Aes Sedai for the betterment of the Dragon and the world - I'm pretty sure she would, and if not, I daresay Verin would (just look at her willingness to poison Cadsuane).


created: 2001-10-22 03:41:24
subject: <b>What the heck is going on with all this MATH???</b>
body:
I'm a simple English major. I just read. Sheesh! (a stolen phrase from Kitara)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 05:52:28
subject:
<b>I <i>want</i> an equation! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I just think it would be good to picture it. Plus I'm a mathematical freak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The graph you're talking about is:<br /><br />Appearance = Lifespan(1-e^-kt)<br /><br />I have been thinking on a formula....it's pretty complicated so far, but I'll see how it turns out. The problem is you can't really tell how old someone is very accurately simply by looking at them. Possible a %error system may be necessary.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 08:55:48
subject: <b>Ermm</b>
body:
If this refers to women, why have you written he and she all over the place?<br /><br />Anyway, it sounds plausible.


created: 2001-10-22 16:46:26
subject: <b>I wonder...</b>
body:
Just a few responses... there is no occurence of he in the text, maybe she (haven't tried), and even if, how the... should I refer to a female? About that equation... Even my summarization doesn't have everything possible in it, so i can't imagine it or the actual graph... what do e and kt mean?<br /><br />P.S.:Woo-Hoo... my first posted theory, i sent to the page on day 1 of my membership, and so far, so good considering i only got as far as book 5 in the series (more haven't been published here yet). Anyways, it's not at all original, i just thought that i might put things from other people together... Just wait for my second one, it's utterly wacky, and a third one is in the making <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Izradi Dellais, i eldalambendil<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-22 17:05:24
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
An attempt at a presentable theory in which you did not try to astound everyone with an obnoxious display of mathematical linguistics would be nice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />You math freaks are obsessive...  Heh, heh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 18:32:28
subject: <b>I'm starting to see a disturbing trend emerge here</b>
body:
Pretty soon you'll need a masters in math/science/physice/etc... to read the theory post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />   Seriously though good theory especially if you only finished book 5!<br /><br />   Here's a round table query, why didn't the Aes Sedai in the tower doin the BA hunt that removed the oaths temporarily have any effects involving their agelessness?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 19:16:47
subject: <b>STOP WHINING!</b>
body:
Good theory..... too bad all these people are hacking it cause they dont want to think....... anyway, i was thinking rather than being reduced to when they started channeling it would make more sense if they were changed to when they took the oaths. Nynaeve said that they (Sanche and her keeper) looked only a few years older than she did, this could have been when they took the oaths. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> &lt; i love this face<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 21:17:46
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
Was your comment on not taking equations seriously a jab at the theory of the mathmatical reltion between male and female channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 03:51:31
subject: <b>interjecting things not of subject</b>
body:
1:I hate math<br />2<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />ragon Re-reborn, nice Silk quote<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 16:12:29
subject: <b>To the illustrious DRr...</b>
body:
As you may have noticed, both Lord Savaunt and I have little smiley faces that wink and look something like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />after our &quot;hacking&quot; quotes, which might lead one to believe we were kidding.<br />On a serious note, wouldn't you also need to factor in the power of the Oath Rod/ter'angreal used, and/ the power of the channeler herself as variables in the equation.  <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 17:57:42
subject:
<b>An equation for you to try <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I fiddled about on Excel for about an hour to get this.<br /><br />Appearance= Lifespan(1-e^((16-Age)/300))^2 + Slowing Age.<br /><br />The Lifespan means the maximum length of time anyone would live in WoT. Anything between 80 and 100 works OK. The age entered must be above the age at which the slowing starts. I took 24, although in some cases this may be too high and I may have to modify the formula ever so slightly.<br /><br />The numbers would involve the strength of the channel and the oaths taken. I can fix it to work for the Kin etc but I havent worked out that formula yet. I will post more later.<br /><br />For those of you that doubt the formula, it has worked for every Aes Sedai I can think of. Here are a few:<br /><br />Cadsuane=305 or 62<br />Verin= 180 or 43<br />Moiraine= 45(ish) or 26<br />Alanna= 70 or 27<br /><br />Taking into account that this takes everyone to be the same strength and that they took the Oaths and started slowing at the same time, I'd say that this is pretty good.<br /><br />All that needs to be done now is to factor in the other variables.<br /><br />...Yes, I know. I'm mad, but it's good maths and spreadsheet practice for me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 22:17:26
subject: <b>Sorry, guys, but...</b>
body:
For those of you out there TRYING to be dorky, you've got a LONG way to go.  You really do.  Trust me.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 05:29:34
subject: <b>I'm not dorky...</b>
body:
I'm an engineering student <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 15:54:41
subject: <b>heh, heh</b>
body:
With signature quotes like those, your margin for insulting is quite small.  Thanks for playing... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Besides... if you are saying we have a long way to go before we are dorky, sans the facetious subtext, I say thank you...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />mauladala<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 17:37:19
subject: <b>Great theory for your first</b>
body:
WOW! very good and logical.  are you sure that you have not read more than book 5? By the way, the oath rod may not be it, maybe it is the rings?  remember the rings that the girls went through (past present and future?) this might have something to do with it.  a math major might be helpful if this trend continues.<br /><br />&quot;Camalot!&quot; &quot;Camalot!&quot; &quot;Camalot!&quot;<br />&quot;It's only a model.&quot;<br />&quot;Shhh.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-14 14:26:53
subject: <b>why the rings/rod</b>
body:
Maybe the slowing down doesn't have anything in common with the oath rod or the rings or whatnot. I think it depends more on the amount of the OP ever channeled by her. the slowing could sorta depend on it via some freaky perverted inverse logarithmic shtick... Too much math on school, need a detox/demath/whatever... And I'm positive I didn't read anything past book 5, it ain't in the library.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Izradi Dellais, i eldalambendil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-16 16:01:42
subject: <b>apparently this needs a title...</b>
body:
Nobody has posted to this in awhile but I felt like writing some stuff anyway.  I can't believe that some people seem to think you need a math major to read any of the equations that have been put up here, you need roughly algebra 2.  I don't think that's fair to math majors to say you'd need their education for them, when all you need is a high school education...  I'm not trying to flame anybody here, I'm just amazed at the comments some people make...  Regardless, I like what you've done Moridin.  I am also a fan of Excel, I had to use it on some interesting algorithms I came up with for my job last summer.<br /><br />P.S. I'm not a math major, I like math, but once you start having to do all of the lengthy proofs it gets a little too tedious for my tastes...


created: 2002-05-13 19:29:04
subject: <b>You'r all wrong!!!</b>
body:
I can't belive some of you haven't seen this. In WH (With the Choedan Kal), Cyndane meet one of the &quot;guards&quot;, I think the Seanchan one, and says that she can see age on her face, and that she not is one of them who calls themselves Aes Sedai. Every Forsaken who has been described has been put an age to. I do not know what the face of an Aes Sedai comes from, but it is most certainly not channeling the One Power long, as the Forsaken has channeled much longer than any Aes Sedai today. Just had to get it out.


created: 2002-06-28 09:48:23
subject: <b>*Sigh*</b>
body:
Those of us who have read WH should have a very good idea what causes the agelessness, even if it is not said as fact yet, the OATH ROD, remember this theory was based on only the first five books, it is incredibly insightful when you consider that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 08:46:34
subject: <b>I don't THINK so!</b>
body:
Well, I HAVE read WH and I still don't believe the Oath Rods cause the 'ageless' look.  Look at the Black Ajah.  They get the oaths 'removed' when they become Black and all of THEM still have the ageless faces.  I like to think it is the pomposity of the current White Tower residents that causes the ageless face.  Because they THINK they need to stand out as having a special power, they unconsiously (or collective consciously?) give themselves the agelessness.  <br /><br />Oh, it could be caused by something the current AS do.  Why not the test for Accepted?  That ter'angreal uses alot of Spirit.  And that could explain why the Kin don't show agelessness, too.  Most of them never made it through the test.  But I don't even really think that. I believe it is a 'collective mystique' that the modern day AS unconsciously impose on themselves.  <br /><br />Heck, it could even be subtely woven in the power weaves they learn in the Tower! We all know that there are different weaves out there that do the same thing.  Maybe the Tower's training incorporates a deviation that does the deed.<br /><br />Anyway, to summarize all that jazz. No, the Oath Rods do not cause agelessness.  (I am not refuting the possibility the Rods do decrease the AS lifespan.)


created: 2002-09-07 12:34:24
subject: <b>And at that point......</b>
body:
I'll plug the FAQ section. It explains why the Black Ajah still have the Ageless look quite well. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 17:33:43
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
On the other hand RJ likes to show how smart people (especially 'logical' people) can be extremely wrong.  If a main character thinks it, then it is probably wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .  Working on this assumption, Mesaana isn't even AS (because Alviarin thinks she is).<br /><br />That only leaves Laras <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 17:38:48
subject: <b>Another thought.</b>
body:
With Salidar AS vs Tower AS this pits Halima vs Mesaana with the prize being control over a strategic weapon (AS) in addition to its prime location to cut off the Borderlands from the outside.  With Arad Domain under Graendal that leaves WT and White Bridge as the only two routes for conventional movement between the borderlands and the rest of the continent.  (Well they can move through the Waste I guess.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 18:27:45
subject: <b>Mesaana is not aes sedai</b>
body:
If Mesaana was hiding as an aes sedai then she would not have hidden her ability to channel.  Since Alviarin is looking for Mesaana among the sister she won't be able to find her.


created: 2001-10-22 18:50:26
subject: <b>Listen, ZERO</b>
body:
Obviously Mesaana wouldn't want Alviarin to even get an idea of her power - remember that AS can sense how powerful each other are, and Mesaana is quite powerful compared to most of the AS. We don't know (at least I don't) if the forsaken could partially hide there ability (In other words, making is seem like they are weaker/stronger than they are), but I'd say that its probably easier for Mesaana to just hide the ability altogether.<br /><br />You know, I never really thought about that before, but men can't gage eachothers strength unless they are holding all the power 'near to bursting', which made it easy for Dashiva/Aginor to make it look like he was learning, but I wonder if a woman can make herself seem weaker/stronger. Maybe someone could enlighten me.


created: 2001-10-22 19:02:14
subject: <b>Why do so many people disagree</b>
body:
Wow! 1% out of 350 people agree with this theory! that has to be a record. man i think that the wot calculators are screwed up &amp;$@&amp;^#@_* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />^)(&amp;^$@$)^$@#&amp;^(&amp;*%^(*&amp;#@^*^ and that my friends is the secret of life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 08:39:30
subject: <b>I thought...</b>
body:
...that Danelle had been an Aes Sedai, but was killed and replaced by Mesaana (if it's Danelle), not just some Aes Sedai who happened to turn up in the last year.<br /><br />What hope would Mesaana have against Halima? She better hope she knows he/she's coming and has black sisters to link with her.


created: 2001-11-21 10:28:46
subject: <b>don't think that mesaana is masquerading as an AS</b>
body:
Mesaana hides her ability to channel for a reason, I don't believe they can partially hide their strength.  She would have to be hidden as someone who is not supposed to be able to channel.  There are always women that go to the tower seeking help.  She could be one of those.


created: 2002-01-02 12:42:17
subject: <b>They will find Meesana sooner or later...</b>
body:
Remember that the Aes Sedai who is searching for the black ajah is already wondering if Elaida is a darkfriend... what happens when they corner her and discover that she's Alviarins puppet? <br /><br />* The tower will explode! * <br /><br />I don't think that Egwene will have to fight other Aes Sedai. Elaida will be disposed of by the growing number of Aes Sedai in the tower who's hunting Darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-29 20:32:14
subject: <b>An interesting point...</b>
body:
You know those sisters who are hunting down the BA?  Well, they reswore the Oath that they would &quot;speak no word that is not true&quot;.  Then they all said they weren't Darkfriends.  Well, the Forsaken don't consider thenselves to be Darkfriends, do they?  They consider themselves above and beyond mere Darkfriends.  Just something to think about (and not too likely, I might add). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-14 13:48:22
subject: <b>First of all...</b>
body:
...They can make their strength seem less, RJ has said so.  Second, I'm just wondering why Moiraine didn't tell Rand that AS can write lies, &quot;to SPEAK no word that is not true, I wonder if that becomes significant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 09:21:46
subject: <b>She can't rat</b>
body:
Maybe Alviarin will find out who Mesaana is, but I don't think she will be able to rat on her. <br /><br />Remember that Vandene and Adeleas did what they could (and I gather that that is a lot) to Ispan but they could not get her to say anything about who was a darkfriend or what their plans were. They concluded that she had sworn an oath with the oath rod that forbade her to do that.<br /><br />Later on darkfriend oaths are also mentioned in the scene where the darkfriend hunters gather in the cellars of the white tower.<br /><br />So Alviarin probably won't be able to betray Messaana if she finds her, but will use the knowledge to her advantage in another way.


created: 2002-10-05 03:21:36
subject: <b>Darkfriend versus Black Ajah</b>
body:
If Messana were captured the DF hunters in the Tower, she'd just say &quot;I am not Black Ajah.&quot;  Some people swear that they aren't DFs, others that they aren't BA.  Obviously, Forsaken aren't going to be BA.


created: 2002-12-16 11:54:48
subject: <b>But will they...</b>
body:
Think to use the rod to release them from their current oats...and then make them reswear the old ones...


created: 2001-10-22 20:22:57
subject:
<b>But what if . . .<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
If one Travels far enough west persay from Cairhien to Baerlon.  The sun would seem to rise twice for a person.  Just a pointer. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-22 22:58:07
subject: <b>his blood eh? Hmmm... what about...</b>
body:
Ok this gets a bit grose<br /><br />Sperm meets egg right?<br /><br />Sperm and egg become baby or babies<br /><br />Rand's blood and Elayne's blood is 'spilt' during birth?<br /><br />*grins*<br /><br />I told you it was grose!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I am just stretching my hypothesis even MOOOOOOOOOOORE by typing this! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thanks for posting my theory Roonas! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Andy</i><br /><br /><i> Wicca of Downunder </i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Formely known as Clef <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Magically inclined in the good way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Magic Turnip&#8482; and the Chatroom Breadstick&#8482; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 00:09:03
subject: <b>A Thought . . .</b>
body:
I have only one comment to make.  If your theory of spilling blood twice was true, wouldn't it first have been his wound taken over Falme (As you said), and then wouldn't the second be his wound taken from Fain's dagger.  This could be true if Rand's second wound occured exactly one year after the first.  The couldn't it be said that the day had dawned twice, or whatever.<br /><br />This probably isn't true.  But oh well, it was just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 00:38:51
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I always took the meaning of 'twice dawns the day his blood is shed' to mean that he will shed his blood on two seperate days, once on shayol ghoul's (sorry about the spelling) rocks, and the second time in the pit of doom. Whether it's his actual blood, or his bloodline, we'll just have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 00:57:45
subject: <b>Sounds good, but could &quot;blood&quot; mean something else?</b>
body:
I like this theory for the most part.  I do remember the two times Rand really was on the edge of death both at Falme (his side wound) and when Padan Fain cut him there later on.  Could this be the two times he spills his blood?  It could be, but what if &quot;blood&quot; means something else?  Like the &quot;Elayne theory&quot; mentioned about her children, or could it be the Aiel instead.  His blood did come from them, too.  Just thought I throw this in.


created: 2001-10-23 08:37:20
subject: <b>Symetry</b>
body:
To me there would be a lot of symetry in having Rand's kids born on the slopes of SG ( say 25 years to the day) after he was born of the slopes of dragon mount.


created: 2001-10-23 09:19:46
subject: <b>Twice dawns...</b>
body:
I always assumed that the day would dawn twice due to an eclipse.  After all, prophecy is usually a lot more literal than we give it credit for; we just don't understand.  The symbolism of the light being swallowed up by the dark, and then breaking free again, also seemed very important.  I guess we'll just have to wait and see!


created: 2001-10-23 12:26:18
subject: <b>Balefire?</b>
body:
I've always taken the &quot;twice dawns&quot; reference to be a rather<br />heavy-handed reference to balefire.  Rather, day dawns while<br />fighting is going on, and somehow powerful enough balefire<br />is used that time rewinds to some point before dawn.<br /><br />Of course, the flaw here is that if that were true, only<br />a handful of people would know the truth.


created: 2001-10-23 13:50:51
subject: <b>Completely different thought...</b>
body:
I know, the second line says <i>once for morning, once for birth</i>. But what about the idea that <i>twice</i> might stand for the twins that will be born? Well, one of them could be born at sunrise and the otehr a bit later, so that problem would be solved, too <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 13:54:13
subject: <b>Twice Dawns the day.......</b>
body:
This sounds like an eclipse of the sun, this strikes me as quite possible. but thats all I have to say on that<br />Bye.<br />


created: 2001-10-23 14:05:16
subject: <b>I agree, mostly</b>
body:
The twice dawns the day prophecy tends to break people into two camps. <br /><ol><li>People who believe that one day dawns twice (the <b>2 Dawn theory</b>)</li><br /><li>People who believe that Rand sheds his blood on two separate days (the <b>2 Day theory</b>)</li></ol><br />I agree with you that the second camp is most likely correct. (I tried to post a similar theory-although it must have had too many grammatical errors to make the cut because it was perfect otherwise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) .  The main reason that I believe the 2 day theory is that the rest of the poem describes two different events ((once for mourning, once for birth) and (once on the slope of SG and once in the Pit of Doom)) .  While it is possible that Rand can do all these things on the same day it just makes more sense to divide these into two separate events.  <br /><br />If the order stays the same then Rand will stain the rocks of SG for mourning as one event.  Later he will shed his blood in the pit of doom for birth as a second event.  <br /><br />I find it interesting that you think that the event for mourning means that people will mourn Rand's death.  I have always taken it to mean that Rand will attack because of mourning (Allana's Death maybe).  You could be correct though.<br /><br />You can take the 2 Day theory further by including the 3 in a boat prediction (by Nicola and the wise ones).  The world is at a pivotal moment then.  I still don't know whether I think it happens after the first event or after the second.  We also know that Rand will die and live again so this is probably related to the 3 in a boat as well.<br /><br />So many possibilitities, I will have to RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 14:23:51
subject: <b>Blah</b>
body:
I always thought it meant mourning for Rand myself.<br /><br />I am with those who think it means one day dawning twice for whatever reason. This is basically becuase the way the prophecy is worded, it certainly suggest that. If however, I am wrong and it does mean two days, I doubt either has happened yet.<br /><br />I do however agree that there is 9 months to TG, as I think Elayne's babes will be those twins that herald a new age (plus it just seems like a reasonable amount of time).<br /><br />That balefire idea's interesting, but surely for it to make the day dawn twice, you'd have to use the balefire on whatever makes the sun rise (and if anyone does, it's the Creator...can't see the Creator being balefired).


created: 2001-10-23 19:34:07
subject: <b>Before I read any other responses</b>
body:
Let me just say that in my line of thinking Aviendhas children are more likely to be born at Shayol Ghul. That would coincide with Mins viewing of Avis quadruplets being odd, or something about their birth being odd.<br /><br />   Other than that I like the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 20:38:39
subject: <b>After reading the responses</b>
body:
Guru I don't think that Bale Fire would really cause a second sunrise. It'd just alter the events since that sunrise.<br /><br />   Example: Lets say that the battle starts out with everything going perfectly for the light. The Dark Ones forces are on the run, and the armies of all the various nations are very screwed. Then at noon Moridin Bale Fires Bashere and Bryne in one fell swoop. Doing so he (Moridin) uses enough power in the weave that he erases both generals all the way back to dawn.<br /><br />   It is still noon, however the events since dawn are now drastically altered. Two of the best generals for the light have been killed, so the strategizing and spur of the moment changes in tactics have suffered major set backs. The balefire didn't give two dawns, just changed one.<br /><br />   Wombat I think that that morning might actually mean morning instead of mourning. That is to say the time of day rather than the grief of buring a dead friend. It may have something to do with Lews Therins title as Lord Of Morning. Perhaps the first time Rand bleeds it's Lews taking over his body.<br /><br />   Laodwin Gaidin (sorry bout the spelling) perhaps Rands children will symbolize morning and birth. Two concepts that seem to fit well with the beginning of a new age. When the babies are born and see the sun for the first time that's like dawn for them. Or their births could be one day apart (man that really sucks for Elayne). The only real snag is the idea of a pregnant Elayne being moved from the rocks of Shayol Ghul into the pit of Dhoom, while in labor no less. Man this concept just aint good for Elayne at all.<br /><br />   Andy you are delightfully sick and warped yo.<br /><br />   Rand Tedroni I think it's gonna be a hottly debated subject on what his 'blood' refers to until we see the prophecy fulfilled.<br /><br />   Connor I never thought of that, but yeah Rands kids being born at the moral opposite of Dragonmount does have a nifty quality to it.<br /><br />   Scooter I think you may have a point there. A lot of us might be going from the idea that RJ wouldn't be so obvious, but maybe he'll do the obvious because we wouldn't expect it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 23:25:53
subject: <b>One way or the other...</b>
body:
...I'm sure RJ can go on with five more books to fill those nine months(I'm sure there'll be enough dresses and such to describe)!


created: 2001-10-24 17:33:06
subject: <b>Aviendha&#180;s kids</b>
body:
Well, I don&#180;t think that Rand will be unconscious for more than a few days. So it&#180;s possible that he makes Aviendha pregnant within the next few days. That again opens the chance that Aviendha gives birth early (part 1 of odd things) and all 6 babes will be born on SG (anything odder possible?) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 17:57:40
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
...like the part of the FAQ there's an Aiel custom about sister Wives sharing their children. If Rand knocks up Aviendha with a set of twins and all four kids pop out at Shayol then that's some odd birthins<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 17:07:36
subject: <b>Date corrections.</b>
body:
Some of these comments are a little off as far as the use of the phrase &quot; to the day.&quot;<br />Fact-Rand was born on the first day of the thirteenth month.  <br />Fact-Egwene announced that the army would travel to Tar Valon one month after the Feast of Abram(day of meeting with Andoran and Murandian Nobles -PoD)Rand and Elayne conceived their children before the army Traveled. That probably means that the kids will be born before Rand's next birthday (fast of Abram is ninth day of second month, WotWOT)<br />Therefore, Rand and his first litter won't have the same birthday.<br />Also, Falme took place in the Autumn, and Rand was wounded by Fain early in the year, a few weeks at most after the new year started. (Perrin set out to rescue him on the first day of the year, so it couldn't have been that long after)also compare the dates of the Aiel War to the dates of recent events in the Glossary (Taim proclaimed (false)Dragon in 99<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> and Rand is about 21. (by my best count, his 21st birthday was the day before he sent Mat to Salidar)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 20:44:24
subject: <b>Why Elayne???</b>
body:
Doesn't Rand have two other women to knock-up? Couldn't THEIR babies be the &quot;ones&quot; (or whatever...)? It could be quite some time until TG. Remember, RJ does like his twists and turns and helter-skelters. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 11:31:25
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
I have always thought the balefire theory had the potential to cause the day to dawn twice.  Like on day one, it looks like the shadow has won and rand has died on the rocks of shayol ghul.  And then, (PSYCH!) one of our other heroes/heroines gets so emotional and full of the power that she balefires some shadowspawn so hard that time goes backwards, and Rand &quot;rises up and gets his saidin on.&quot;<br /><br />I mean, since the little girl in the Stone of Tear, Rand has been preoccupied with not being able to bring people back.  And, he probably saved Mat's life (again) when he balefired the Darkhounds in Rhuidean (wasn't that where?) by sending time backwards, to before the darkhounds really tore into Mat.<br /><br />In addition, the one time Moiraine really advised Rand about balefire, she said that it destroys permanently and can push time backwards.  Anyways, just a thought.  Since all these posts seem potentially legitimate as to the meaning of &quot;Twice dawns&quot; I guess we'll just have to RAFO.


created: 2002-02-26 13:08:41
subject: <b>And another thing...</b>
body:
&quot;Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth...&quot;<br /><br />I always assumed that &quot;once for morning&quot; (by the way, I cut and pasted the quote.  Isn't it supposed to be mourning?), &quot;once for birth&quot; referred to the number of times that the day dawned.  If I wrote it in plain English, it would read &quot;He sheds blood on the day that dawns twice.&quot;  I think it's a pretty big leap to turn that into two bleeding episodes.   <br />


created: 2002-05-01 17:51:16
subject: <b>Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure????</b>
body:
<br />Other than the obvious reason that nothing is ever simple...<br /><br />Perhaps the Twice day dawning is more literal than proposed?  Everyone is interpreting the first dawning for 'morning' being for 'mourning'.  Is there anywhere else in the series where mourn is spelled morn?  Perhaps the first dawning is literal in that the dawn brings the morning of that day.<br />As far as the second day being for birth, the birth of a new age with the dark one sealed seems pretty good to me.  Although there are plenty of other possible births.<br />I was intrigued by the reference to a possibliity of someone getting to do the day over again.  Perhaps that's why it dawns twice.  I can Imagine Rand or Nyn wanting to be in the right spot at the right time and not being able to manage it, and then finding a way to do it over.  Perhaps someone figures out how to 'bend' time we haven't seen the effect of two streams of balefire hitting each other?


created: 2002-06-10 16:13:01
subject: <b>I dont think so...</b>
body:
It wil not be 9 months til' the Last Battle! Avienda still has to get pregnant and have her kids which will probably be more than a month after Elayne's are born. She has the four &quot;odd&quot; babies remember?<br />   And do you think that Elayne, in her right mind would go the The Bore while she is still carrying them??? In WH she goes through all that trouble to make everyone think that her new (traitor) Captain of her Guard to be her kids father. I dont think that she would willingly go to one of the most dangerous places for herself and her kids before they are at a reasonable age. That would be hypocrytical. &quot;Yeah, I'll save my children from dangers at home while I go and check out the Bore!&quot; I mean come on.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Come Join my Merry Band of Idiots! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 17:38:47
subject: <b>Lord of the Morning</b>
body:
Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth...<br /><br />Doesnt Rand get referred to as the Lord of the Morning a bit?  Well what if, the first dawn is the death of LTT, the second is the birth of either the children or perhaps the rebirth of Rand as himself, as in the removal of the influence LTT had in him.


created: 2002-06-23 06:38:12
subject: <b>Maybe Less Than 9.</b>
body:
Have you ever read Dune? There are a lot of parallells between it and WoT. Eg. Fremen=Aiel, Paul-Muad'dib=Rand.<br />Muad'dib's lover, Chani (like Elayne), has twins. She has an overdose on a substance called spice, causing her children to be aware before birth. Also her pregnancy went quite rapidly, about two months in length.<br />What I'm saying is that possibly something similar could happen to Elayne. I dont think we've heard of a case where a channeler has had a child before. Maybe when Elayne touches saidar the children touch it aswell, somehow causing them to speed up in theirdevelopment. Also being aware when they are born they might be able to channel immediatly and be quite strong. They might even play a part at Tarmon'gaidan.<br />sorry for making that such a long post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lews Therin Telamon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Dragon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lord of the Morning<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Breaker of the World<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Kinslayer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 21:07:18
subject: <b>Twice dawns the day...</b>
body:
Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow&quot;<br />I think RJ is speaking figuratively here.  There won't be 2 actual &quot;dawns&quot; as we think of them, ie the sun rising in the East.  There will be one true dawn (one for morning, NOT mourning) the second dawn may be the dawn of a new age, the &quot;birth of a new era&quot; if you will.  Prophets tended to speak in cryptic verse that only poets understood, according to Messaana.


created: 2003-01-12 11:22:45
subject: <b>dargon's blood</b>
body:
I like your thought process, but it lead me to another thought, perhaps the blood that is spilled IS Rand's,  but not from his own body.  His children also carry his blood.<br />Perhaps one of his children must die instead/also?<br />


created: 2003-09-16 22:47:14
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I take back what I wrote before...there is a good chance that The Last Battle is in 9 months. It just doesn't mean that Elayne will give birth on the slopes of SG.<br /><br />Just a thought to contradict myself...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Young Bull sits in the darkness<br />His eyes glowing golden in the night<br />His ax shimmers with the moonlight<br />Crouching<br />Awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-28 14:40:18
subject: <b>Elayne at SG?</b>
body:
where does it say that both 'bloods' have to be shed ON SG? rand could be fighting and dieing on the rocks of SG (red on black, first dawn etc.) while later somewhere to the west (possibly Cairhein if elayne gets the Sun throne) the babies are born. as they are in the west, the day would dawn later. <br />ezmie


created: 2004-10-12 16:07:57
subject: <b>two days i dont think so</b>
body:
Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow<br /><br />It says Twice dawns THE day which clarely states that its one day<br />and it's morning (like in waking up) not mourning.<br /><br />Otherwise its a good theory but i disagree with a few things.<br /><br />P.S<br />it's spelled Tarmon Gaidon<br />


created: 2005-12-29 01:53:18
subject: <b>Morning is a bit different to mourning</b>
body:
Mourning is generally done when someone has died, most likely person in this context is rand. Morning normally symbolises the beginning of stuff - day, era, change in someone's life.  Ok so the first time that Rand's blood was spilt was on tomon head book 2 when fighting ishmael.  It could be that the &quot;beginning&quot; symbolised by the word morning is rand becomming the dragon reborn.  This is significant enough to be found in a prophesy and fits into the context of the passage by linking the shed blood in becomming the dragon reborn and the shed blood in the dragon saving the world.  <br /><br />You people think too straightforward.  This is a prophesy, the word birth is a lot more likely to symbolise the dawning of a new age brought about by the dragon rather than the birth of elayne's childern.  This prophesy covers the dragon vs the DO in 4 lines, therefore everything said must be fairly important.  Rand becomming dragon reborn and rand defeating the DO and bringing a new age is important enough to fit.  <br /><br />Cheers


created: 2007-07-18 14:29:12
subject: <b>Elayne at the last battle.</b>
body:
The Queen/Mother Goddess archetype (Elayne) will have her children at Shayol Ghul possibly after or maybe before the day that Rand fights the Dark One. How she arrives there is a mystery that the series itself shall unfold. But then again, this is all conjecture - but it just might - might I say, ring some element of truth.<br /><br />well Elayne will most likely go because she realizes that not only is she Aes Sedai and thus more than useful at the Last Battle, but Birgitte is a hero of the horn and her warder, so Birgitte will most likely need to be there as well. And since Elayne is queen of andor now she will lead andors forces in the battle. She could easily bully anyone into letting her go even if shes close to giving birth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-01 15:18:30
subject: <b>What is TG</b>
body:
Welllllllllll here is .I think you are you are wrong about twice dawns the day.And i think ishould just post a theary instead of saying it here so I will look for it.I love all the ideas that all the wot freaks post and and glad to be apart of it.<br />  you are wrong but read my theary to find out why.


created: 2009-01-01 15:34:23
subject: <b>twice on the same day wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
I will keep it simple ,Rand gos to SG.RAND and DO fight.Rand wins ,The wheel sort of reboots and starts time over in a sense,a new day a new everithing.If you havent noticed in all RJ complexities all his ansers have been simple ,though not obvious and that in essence is his greatness and the reason I love his book with ecceptoin to all of the plot twist and originality.<br />   As for his blood on the rocks I believe the children have alot to do with it and as soon as i come up with a reason or theaqry that seems smart enougph for you wot freaks I will be sure to post it.I love this place man...


created: 2001-10-23 19:24:00
subject: <b>Nitpick</b>
body:
Just one thing to point out:  the person who controls the link decides when to end it.  Rand would not have to ask Nynaeve to break the link, he would do it himself.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 21:07:47
subject: <b>Isn't this in the wrong department?</b>
body:
Shouldn't this be over in the fanfic section? You certainly can't call this a theory when only a single paragraph was devoted to anything other than the fanfic portion of this thing. Especially when that one paragraph is nothing but opinion without supporting facts or evidence. This is even worse than the Verin Is Mesaana theory. At least that was a real theory, even if it was wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 07:20:28
subject: <b>Ooooh</b>
body:
I hope RJ doesn't read this, he really doesn't like people writing things with his characters.<br /><br />Where in this was Alivia (is it Alivia? If not, you know who I mean, that damane) who is to help Rand die? Surely she will be the one to use the Cheoden Kal with Rand, she's far stronger than Nynaeve. Of course, that would actually involve having to find another access key for women. I also think that if your idea of a huge link was true, it would be a maximum link.<br /><br />I could think of hundreds of different ways TG could go, most are more likely than this. The idea that saidan and saidar would actually combine...well, it's just been totally fabricated out of nowhere. There is nothing to suggest this will happen except your imaginiation.<br /><br />I don't agree with the True Power vs the One Power theory, I don't understand your reasoning that it wouldn't be True Power and One Power vs One Power. Where's Moridin in all this? Has he already been disposed of?<br /><br />I also don't think the Dark One will be killed, rather he will be seaed away properly.<br /><br />I was just wondering, after this one and the Verin = Mesaana theory, what are the staff on? Why have either of these two been shown when mine wasn't? I know mine was original (I've read all the theories on the site now) and as far as I could tell, it was an extremely good theory, as least as good as my other 2 which both got posted. Please understand that I wouldn't be complaining at all if it wasn't for the fact that these other theories have been put up, when they are clearly wrong or not theories at all.


created: 2001-10-24 08:27:58
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Definitly not a theory.<br /><br />And stick to your day job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 09:24:20
subject: <b>Don't listen to the critics....</b>
body:
I think it sounded good. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even if it isn't very likley that this version of TG will ever be the right version, it still sounded good.<br /><br />If you want to, my <i>da'covale</i> can rewrite it for you, so it's up to date with the facts.<br /><br />//<br />Rie Bolmdahl<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Rie Bolmdahl</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Rie a'M'hama'cueran<br /><i>Caballien misain ye<br /><br />Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyari</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 09:31:32
subject: <b>Don't listen to the moron....</b>
body:
Ignore my idiotic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> brother, I won't rewrite ANYTHING.<br /><br />I have a feeling you don't want me to rewrite it either.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 13:03:33
subject: <b>A responce to Three in a Boat</b>
body:
In responce to Three in a Boat <br /><br /><b>'I was just wondering, after this one and the Verin = Mesaana theory, what are the staff on? Why have either of these two been shown when mine wasn't? I know mine was original (I've read all the theories on the site now) and as far as I could tell, it was an extremely good theory, as least as good as my other 2 which both got posted. Please understand that I wouldn't be complaining at all if it wasn't for the fact that these other theories have been put up, when they are clearly wrong or not theories at all.' </b><br /><br />I understand your frustration.  I sent what I thought was a good theory through twice (the first time was around the time the system crashed so I wasn't sure if it made it through.)  Neither time did the post make the cut.  <br /><br />On the other hand, I don't think it is a good idea to get too wrapped up in it.  Judging is a difficult job, not the least because <b>everybody</b> thinks that they can do it better.  <br /><br />(The same thing happens with taxes. Because everybody thinks that they can do a better job of spending the money than the government people want lower taxes.  If people compared how well the government spent its money to how well their in-laws spent it, for example, they would vote for higher taxes (at least for their in-laws).) <br /><br />But coming back to the main point.  I am not saying that you or I are one of these people who think they judge well but actually judge poorly.  But we have to have a little bit of humility to not get too frustrated that others have a different opinion.  We can get even by voting the offensive post down, mwuahahaha. <br /><br />There are probably a lot of people who feel, that a lot of the posts are irrelevant and shouldn't be there (myself included).  The question is, is there a universal opinion about what is fluff, or is my idea of fluff your idea of a great post.  If it is the former, maybe, one or more of the judges should move to other roles (the other possibility is that the majority is wrong which does happen).  If it is the latter it is just a matter of opinion.<br /><br />For a couple posts (this one included) I wish there was a shouldn't be on the board option to go along with the agree or disagree.  (Hard telling how that will influence other peoples votes though!) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 16:34:50
subject: <b>I love to argue</b>
body:
Actually, I liked this theory.  It had a lot of merrit, and <br />it sounded more like something RJ would write than <br />anything that I've read in a long time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Master of all things Star Wars <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /><br />Duck R2!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-22 17:15:17
subject:
<b>not too bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Despite the fact the story went on far too fast for the usual tempo in WoT, it was well written and very &quot;Jordan-like&quot;. I'd like to read some of your own writings sometime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jazz Necesse Est <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 14:10:41
subject: <b>Good idea.</b>
body:
Although it's a 99.9 % that the DO can't be killed. Probably just sealed properly, so there can be another age and another person opening the prison. <br /><br />I believe that the both the Creator and the Dark One is needed to make the Randland world complete. You can't kill them (but maybe replacing them would be intersting?)<br /><br />Vote for Moridin as the next age DO!<br /><br />Where does the prophecy where three women sits in a boat appear if Rand is torn to pices? Also i think that that would happen before the LB is finished!


created: 2002-01-25 10:23:32
subject: <b>A small mistake in this theory</b>
body:
hi all,<br />there's a small, but decuiding mistake in this theory:<br />the female acess key to the Choedan Kal has been destroyed at the end off Book 9. The only other one we know about has been found by Egwene in tanchico- broken and therefore useless. Unfortunately, we don't know how many keys has been manufactured in the AOL, but I don't think more than 2 pairs. How more acess keys exist, chances rises one or a pair will get in the wrong hands- something yout don't want if you create such a powerful weapon.  Shure, Elayne COULD recreate another Acess key, since she is the only living Aes Sedai with at least some basiv knowlege about ter'angreal. But she can only copy thoses, by now, an those copys are not working very well yet. And the acesskeys are described as an combination of ter'angreal an Angreal, which means the will be highliy complicatet to copy- there playing in a completely different league then thos dream-ter'angreal Elayne made so far.<br /><br />So, but enogh critcs know- beside that, a excellent written sory fragment. Why dont you write fan-fiction tho the wheel of time ? I'd like to read more in that style..<br /><br />Sorry my mistakes in spelling, I'm not used to write english somehow ist used rarely in germany ;-))<br /><br />CU


created: 2002-04-22 21:47:22
subject: <b>one power/good vs. true power/bad....nice!</b>
body:
That is some nice writing!  It is so totally involved and I just think that it was great.<br />Anyway, I think that the theory was pretty sound but I doubt that RJ will actually come out and say that the Last<br />Battle was over.  Other than that, I think you should start writing books, if you haven't already.  Heck, you should<br />probably write the counter story to this entire series, getting all of the great ideas from all of us geniuses here.<br />GJ on the entire writing.  It really was awesome.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Lucienne Sedai Purple <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Genius And All 'Round Full Of Herself Idiot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> And So On And So Forth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-30 01:23:52
subject: <b>May RJ live forever.</b>
body:
nice writing i guess, but if you are writing a story (using someone elses characters i might add) aren't you supposed to use paragraphs??....... anyway....... wasn't the female Choden Kal destroyed in the cleansing of saidin?? or did i read that wrong? RJ said it was all melted or something, yes??


created: 2002-05-01 04:05:44
subject: <b>The Pure One Power</b>
body:
wonderful writing! i especially like the part about saidin and saidar being channeled so strongly that they were forced together. i think that how the creator made the world; by forcing saidin and saidar together so they formed the one power itself, the pure power. it all makes sense if you think about it in these terms: the creator made the prison by forced the two halves together, into the one power in its purest form. therefore, the only way to re-seal the prison and make it look like the creators work is to use both halves, and force them into the one power itself. that was the reason lews therin's seal on the prison wouldnt hold. had lews therin used saidin AND saidar to seal the prison, then it would have been a complete seal, emulating the creators work. thus, rand HAS to have aes sedai back-up, or the dark one will break free like he did when lews therin tried to seal the prison with pure saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 04:52:31
subject: <b>Choedan Kal</b>
body:
Ok, first off has everyone forgotten that all of the known keys to the female's Choedan Kal are broken? So how can Rand and Nynaeve link w/ them? Unless you think that there is another female key. Second I think that the Choedan Kal have played there part...at least the female half has.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace favor your sword.<br /> -Shienaran warrior's blessing</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-13 15:37:35
subject: <b>bad story, good point</b>
body:
I don't like Choeden Kal's story of the last battle but do agree that the forces of light must create/discover some <br />means of combating the true power from the DO, Morindin, and the Super Fade.  I believe in Winter's Heart at <br />a Forsaken meeting Demmy states that Morindin must have used the true power since he could not detect any<br />use of the true source when Morindin had channeled.<br />If the good guys can't detect/counter the TP directly with Saidin or Saidar then something new needs to be<br />found...maybe the combined One Power suggested by author.


created: 2003-04-19 20:55:39
subject: <b>yaya</b>
body:
This is a plausible theory.  What's with the female Choeden Kal thingy though? I thought it got burnt up in winters heart?  Mabee Elayne will make another.  However, Wouldn't it be fitting for all the heroes to die in the end?  Then it would be an end.  There would then be a beginning, not THE beginning, but A beginning or however he says it.    Neway theres my 2 cents worth.


created: 2001-10-24 04:37:02
subject: <b>out of context</b>
body:
I think you took the quote about guarding against 'the shadow at noon' out of context. They're referring to guarding against the shadow or the dark one, the only thing that could be a shadow at noon, not against a solar eclipse. <br /><br />Also, 'twice dawns the day his blood is shed, once for morning and once for birth'. I take this to mean that on the first day his blood his shed, he will die, hence the morining. Then the second day his blood is shed is for birth, or the rebirth of rand in some form.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 07:38:13
subject: <b>Yeah...</b>
body:
...what the cat said, Jesus style. Possibly.<br /><br />Twice dawns the day could simply mean that the bore opens enough for the DO to have a lot more control over the world, thus sending out those black fires that cover the sky. Then, when he is defeated, these fires will disperse, and the sun will show again. It's hardly dawning twice...but if the darkness was like night, it could be seen that way.<br /><br />Of course, there is the possibilty that the DO will have enough power over the world to actually force the sun back down after dawn. After all, even with his limited control over the world he managed to halt the seasons, who knows what he could do when the bore fully breaks open? As to why he would move the sun back (rather than forwards, or not at all) I don't know.


created: 2001-10-24 17:26:28
subject: <b>About morning</b>
body:
Notice that the spelling is morning (i.e. the time of day) and not mourning (grieving for the dead). I always thought it meant that A) the first dawn is a regular dawn you'd see in the morning or B) Lews Therin old title Lord Of Morning. Maybe the first time Rand Bleeds it's when Lews Therin takes over and it starts their merging.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 16:55:48
subject: <b>You scared me Lord Savaunt</b>
body:
My copy of tGH has mourning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 14:19:41
subject: <b>The return</b>
body:
Surely the land divided by the return is a reference to the Seanchan. They call their attempt to reclaim the lands of Artur Hawkwing the return and if any &quot;return&quot; has split the land, then this is definitely it.


created: 2001-11-21 02:25:25
subject: <b>More thought...</b>
body:
I just read this passage very closely. I had seen it before and not caught it, but now I know what RJ's planning (well, some of it...)<br />The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. (Elayne, Avi, &amp; Min. Duh) Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. (Rand's not dead! How? Idunno.)<br />The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return (Seanchen of course) and the guardians (Asha'man in the old tongue) balance out the servants (Aes Sedai = Servents of All). The future teeters on the edge of a blade (Could be something to do with calandor perhaps...hard to say for sure.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Light and darkness in harmony <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Protecting innocent damsels since 1999 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Lone Wolf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 10:58:08
subject: <b>Balefire?</b>
body:
I think that the twice dawns the day prophecy relates to balefire.  Rand somehow gets hits and his blood spills on the rocks of Shayol Ghul and he dies.  Then someone (maybe the ladies) blast balefire at his attacker.  All seperately, but the combined force burns the thread far enough back to undo Rand's death and the day dawns again.  <br />  Twice dawns the day <br />  Once for mourning (Rand's death)<br />  Once for birth (Rand's rebirth/still alive)<br />  This would also fulfill the requirement 'that to live he (Rand) must die' that was given to him by the Finns.<br />  Then Rand and his ladies can get on their boat and sail...wherever.<br />  Just my thoughts.


created: 2002-02-07 11:17:14
subject: <b>to live you must die</b>
body:
I always figured that if he dies during the last battle, he'll live by being reborn to fight it later. but if he does make it the final battle of it's kind, and vanquishes the dark one, he'll survive but never be reborn again, since the wheel will be broken and time will be linear.


created: 2002-03-12 16:54:19
subject: <b>Mat</b>
body:
The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. (Elayne, Avi, &amp; Min. Duh) Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. (Rand's not dead! How? Idunno.)<br /><br />he who is dead yet lives is a bluntly obvious comment about Mat. How could you miss that?<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> The Drewman Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> All who oppose the Drewman will die. Maybe. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 17:32:06
subject: <b>He who is dead</b>
body:
&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. (Elayne, Avi, &amp; Min. Duh) Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. (Rand's not dead! How? I dunno.)&quot;<br /><br />&quot;he who is dead yet lives is a bluntly obvious comment about Mat. How could you miss that?&quot;<br /><br />Personally, I think that the he who is dead yet lives is Lews Therin, or the Dragon, whoever he happened to be at the beginning (although there is no beginnings...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />).  What do you think?


created: 2002-04-02 06:07:53
subject: <b>Double Dawn</b>
body:
The most logical reason for two dawns is that Rand &amp; Co. will begin the day in the Aiel waste, probably at Rhuidean which is east of Shayol Ghul, and will be there for the sunrise. They will then Travel to Shayol Ghul where the sun will rise again during the battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 16:03:54
subject: <b>just my thoughts</b>
body:
&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.&quot; The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade. <br /><br />the lion sword: the marching lion of andor (we all know andor is 'a key' to winningthough that's another theory altogether [Rand is part of Andor]), perhaps Elayne<br /><br />dedicated spear: Aiel, though it seems really obvious<br /><br />see who sees beyond: Min, although why I don't know<br /><br />three on the boat: Poss. Seanchean, and Athan Miere, and ??? or just one<br /><br />he who is dead yet lives: LTT<br /><br />Just my thoughts<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Brihyanna Sarabix Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 05:30:39
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
Do you think there's any significance in the fact that it says &quot;he who is dead yet lives&quot; and not &quot;he who was dead yet lives&quot;?  That would rule out Mat, right?  The only way to be dead and still alive is if there were two of you.  And if anyone could manage that, it would be Mr. Dragon.<br /><br />Or it could mean nothing.  I don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> *snicker, snicker*<br />Part-Time Lurker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Pagans; into sex, death, and religion, in an interesting late night tv sort of way.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 08:13:02
subject: <b>Nukes</b>
body:
Nuclear fireballs are often compared to a false dawn.  And, given the explosive power and heat of the unraveled web outside Ebou Dar, an explosion of that magnitude is possible with the Power.  I'm not saying it's going to happen, just giving something for you to chew on.


created: 2002-07-02 01:37:56
subject: <b>In the dark there is a light...</b>
body:
I have read the theory and all blackboard comments and thought long and hard as to how the prophicy could be fulfilled.  2 dawns is vague enough. 1= Rand approaches the Darkone and in his efforts he only manages to weaken him.  The Dark One proceeds to use his dark True source to kill Rand and spread an unholy shadow covering the planet and time and space start to decay. 2= The Lion Sword (andor/Elayne) + The Dedicated spear, remember when Rand got the dragon sceptor and why he had to go and get it?, (aiel/Aviendha) + The One who sees beyond (min)= all contribute strength, dedication, and love to make an ultimate balefire that consumes the dark one in all his darkness.  The Lands wait and the next(same mourning) mourning after the final battle everyone remembers the dawn and knows just how close they came.  The three on the boat, Min and Elayne and Aviendha, plus one who is dead yet alive, Rand, fulfill the prophicies ending this epic saga.<br />                               Avenger69 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Avenger69 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Warder bonded to Brihyanna Sarabix Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Destroyer of both honesty and lies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /> Semper Fidelis<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />                  LIFE<br />        A sexually transmitted disease<br />             that is 100% fatal</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 20:00:07
subject: <b>Half the light of the world...</b>
body:
Ok, first off I do not have a full theory here, but I can't help but think that Mat's having to &quot;give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot; will have something to do with the day in which dawn comes twice.<br /><br /> As far as &quot;He who is dead yet lives&quot; goes, maybe that IS Rand, or rather the Dragon, but not necessarily born to the pattern again. Not that soon. Think about it like this.<br /><br /> Birgitte was the best bowman (err, bowwoman) in history. When she was called back by the Horn she was... the best bowwoman in history. All the other heroes of the horn did what they did best as well. Artur Hawkwing with his mighty sword, Gaidal Kain with his two swords (might have the weapon there wrong, but the truth is behind it) etc.<br /><br /> What does the Dragon do best? He channels. So when the horn is blown, as I am sure it will be at TG, the Dragon, who has just died, will be brought back. So he who is dead yet lives. And he will be at full str and untoucheable by mortal weapons. Maybe the OP too, though I doubt the TP.<br /><br />Hmm... now that I am thinking along that line...<br /> What if Rand dies, comes back as the Dragon in all his glory as a hero of the horn, seals up the DO's prison as if it had never been cracked, saves the day, blahblahblah. Then Mat is faced with the fate of &quot;Giving up half the light of the world to save the world&quot;. Maybe that is Tel'Aran'A- Tel'Ar- Err! The World of Dreams. I will have to look closer at the descriptions of ...the Wolrd of Dreams next time I read the cycle. If I am right, maybe he somehow removes the heroes from their hiding place for all time. All those generals and heoroes suddenly mortal and on the Dragon's side would be able to deal with the Seanchan threat quite handily I am sure. In fact, maybe Artur Hawkwing's great sword is the blade that the future of the world balances on. If he could convince the Seanchan to follow, or at least not conquer the rest of that world that would certainly change things, though that is a weak guess at best. And best of all, Rand would live, err sorta, after TG.


created: 2002-09-24 19:53:24
subject: <b>Another Thought</b>
body:
is that twice dawns the day could be refering to the summer soltise.  The battel is sopouse to be on the Slopes of Shayol Ghul which by the maps is close to the north poll.  on the summer soltise the sun the far north would not set but would get very close to the horivan  (posibily go be hind the mountin) and would hise henise twice Dawns the day.


created: 2002-11-26 09:03:39
subject: <b>rand and lews therin</b>
body:
this is a bit of a strech but here it is. it is too early in the morning...<br />1 rand killed maybe by true powe rfighting the DO<br />2 horn is blown as last ditch effort to save the world.<br />3 lews therin reborn through the horn<br />4 then elyane min avi. use a big load of balefire on whoever killed rand and he returns as rand then splitting rand and lews.. what do you think?


created: 2003-04-04 14:33:28
subject: <b>hey</b>
body:
I'm probably not the first to note it but it should be noted, the lion sword - elayne, the dedicated spear - aviendha, and she who sees beyone (or whatever) - min, and the one who is dead but lives could either be kinslayer or rand, I'm not sure. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-18 02:07:20
subject: <b>Blood Spilled</b>
body:
All of the Prophicies say that Rand's/The Dragon's blood must be spilled on Shayoul Ghoul, and for some reason this seems to mean that Rand HAS to die then.  What if that just means he has to bleed on Shayoul Ghoul....  maybe that just means that whatever happens during T'armon Gaidon will make Rand bleed there (perhaps shedding the menace of his &quot;never healed wounds&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Also the Prophicies go on to say that he will &quot;...free men from the Shadow&quot;  Hadrid Fel once said that at some point in the Turning of the Wheel of Time the Seal on the DO's prison had to have not been a seal but actually part of the prison itself.  We've already seen Rand return part of the AOL to it's state before the WotS (no taint on saidin) maybe the Prophicy is referring to Rand's/LTT's blood resealing the DO's prison to the way it was before the Bore was ever created..... what was will be.....  <br /><br />Maybe it's just me, but I think with the end of the Age in the current timeline we will see the begining of the next Age of Legends (called The Fourth Age by some)


created: 2003-05-02 21:49:01
subject: <b>Twice dawns the day-</b>
body:
once for mourning- when the DR {Rand} spills his blood on Shayol Ghul at dawn.<br />twice when he is revived as 3 people somewhere to the West of SG.<br /><br />After his blood is spilled, the DO`s prison will be whole again-no more patches until the 3rd Age comes around again.<br /><br />RJ can make Rand become 3 people, with the personalities of himself for Min; LTT for Elayne and &quot;the other one&quot; for Avienda.  Did you notice, RJ introduced &quot;the other one&quot; late in the series, maybe because of complaints about polygamy?<br /><br />to brihyanna:  Elaida`s Foretelling came long before Elayne was born or Morgaise was yet Queen.  Andor being the key to TG refers to the then DHoAndor, Tigrain.  Why Elaida is so dense about this matter is beyond me!  Elaida has only gotten worse with Fain`s taint on her, however slight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-10 17:37:14
subject: <b>Blood spilled</b>
body:
Um. Could the dragons blood being spilled not actually be him? I dunno if this could really make sense but could it be just that his children are born there, cuz they would be his blood right?


created: 2003-11-16 16:49:21
subject: <b>I don't understand...</b>
body:
Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow<br /><br />How dose this signify an eclipse? I don't see it... Let me know please.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 15:05:39
subject: <b>Eclipse</b>
body:
I have been an Eclipse believer for a while - 1st dawn in the morning, then comes the eclipse - the actual battle between Rand/LT and the DO take place, &quot;Red on Black his blood spilt on SG&quot; is when the LT personality dies when the DO is defeated (here will be when the unhealed wound will break open - also, Alivia must be around here someplace as she will &quot;help him die&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />; when the eclipse is over the day dawns again with the rebirth of the age (or Elayne's children as some have supposed) as well as Rand.<br /><br />I think all the &quot;boat&quot; references are just because Elayne, Avi, and Min are in the same boat by loving Rand and him loving them - I just don't see a literal boat, but maybe I'm blind.<br /><br />However, one additional point, I have now read several references to balefire making the day dawn twice - interesting theory.  The only ones who would remember the events would be the ones who made the balefire in the first place - Elayne &amp; Avi w/ Nyn/Egwene/Alivia's help?  So would anyone remember the events around whoever was defeated by the balefire? I need to keep thinking on this one, but it has merit!!<br /><br />Balance hangs on edge of knife - the Knife of Dreams?


created: 2005-06-03 16:27:40
subject: <b>When it says...</b>
body:
Twice dawns the day his blood is shed. Maybe it meant when Rand was born. (No, not the bl... shut up) &quot;Blood&quot; often refers to family, and &quot;Blood is shed&quot; might mean that Rand was sort of 'shed' from his mother, or released from her womb. And twice dawns the day... maybe it's a metaphorical eclipse, like, the day Rand was born, the Sun obviously rised, but when he was born, it was sort of like a light for humanity, now that their savior was born. I think Tam would've mentioned a blocking of the sun or something... but whatever, my thoughts are just those, and all metaphorical, maybe there will be an eclipse at Tarmon Gaidon, maybe Rand will die at the Last Battle, but I think it's all metaphorical.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Snow <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-12 23:15:58
subject: <b>Double Dawns?</b>
body:
This just occured to me. What if the double dawns refers to the length of the battle?  Even now the Blight is gathering its strength, there will be thousands and thousands of Trollocs.  The battle will be huge,  and will undoubtably long.  Maybe &quot;Double Dawns&quot; just refers to the battle taking so long the fighting lasts through two full mornings.


created: 2007-07-18 14:24:31
subject: <b>the boat</b>
body:
Adding in Nicola's foretelling in LOC:<br />&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.&quot; The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.<br /><br />this is pretty self explanitory<br />Elayne= the lion sword (white lion of andor)<br />Aviendha= dedicated spear (Aiel)<br />Min=she who sees beyond (visions)<br />he who is dead yet lives obviously refers to rand either living on in their hearts or that he somehow in someway survives the last battle<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-13 03:24:54
subject: <b>Sacrifice &amp; Rebirth</b>
body:
I have also thought it would be eclipse, although I think that twice dawns the day his blood is shed means this; First he will sacrifice himself after the eclipse has begun, his blood flows on the black slopes and this is why the first is mourning-and Alivia will help him sacrifice himself. The second dawning-in actual reality being the end of the eclipse-is when Rand comes back to life, possibly being resurrected by Nynaeve and Flynn linked using Callandor. Thats what I think might happen


created: 2008-11-13 04:46:35
subject: <b>Sacrifice and Rebith</b>
body:
I have also thought it would be an eclipse, one that signifies Rands confrontation with the Dark One. Once for mourning, one for birth; my belief is that he will sacrifice himself and the eclipse will begin-his blood will flow on the black rocks in the Pit of Doom-and Alivia will help him make that sacrifice. In dying, Rand will somehow confront the Dark One and severe the links between Shaitan and the world of man, maybe tapping into his Ta'veren spin on events-and when the eclipse is almost over, Rand will come back to life, perhaps being resurrected by Nynaeve and Flynn linked using Callandor with Nynaeve guiding the flows, an instant before Shaitan overwhelms him and an instant after the rest of the channelers reseal the Bore.


created: 2009-01-19 03:03:35
subject: <b>Twice dawns the day and the shadow at noon</b>
body:
Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow<br /><br />It will all happen in one day (one 24 hr period). Once in the morning, the way it always does and the other is at noon. Or at least while the sun is high up. <br />How? All evidence points to the seals being broken in order to be remade. So up goes Rand to break the seals and begin the process of resealing the bore. As soon as he does it though, the Dark One is able to touch the world. Darkness reigns and all hell breaks loose, in a manner of speaking. Finally when the resealing is complete the day dawns once more as the darkness lifts. By this time Rand's blood is all over the rocks of Shayol Ghul.<br />I do not think Nicola's foretelling has anything to do about it aside from the part where he who is dead yet lives. It might be Rand. The last battle done but the world not done with battle simply means that there will still be conflicts after the T'armon Gaidon. There's still the Seanchan problem, for example and infighting among Rand's nations(Tear vs. Illian, Tear vs. Mayene, Tear vs. Cairhien, Cairhien vs. Aiel clans). The future teeters on the edge simply means a lot of it will still be resolved by old fashioned bloodshed and anything might still happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 21:14:29
subject: <b>Who cares what his talents are...</b>
body:
...If Logain is able to figure out the how of what Nynaeve did he can explain it to her and to Flinn. That in and of itself would be enough to get the process started.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 07:28:08
subject: <b>I was wondeing...</b>
body:
...in what way has Logain shown a great interest in what Nynaeve did? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like you to give some examples of his interest as I can't remember any.<br /><br />Also, who said Logain was mad before he was gentled? I never saw any evidence that the taint had gotten to him (to any degree anyway).


created: 2001-10-24 17:08:50
subject: <b>Hey 3boat</b>
body:
Logain was trying to see if other Ashamon could figure it out. The it being healing gentling. That doesn't to me clearly indicate that he was concerned with or even aware of Nynaeves methods. Afterall it would be a useful thing in and of itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 17:39:45
subject: <b>Ah</b>
body:
I remember now. I agree with LS, he would of course want one of the Asha'man to work this out, he could hardly expect any Aes Sedai to do it again (as the taint hadn't been removed at the time). I see nothing to indicate that he was doing it for any reason (such as getting rid of the taint) other than reversing gentling though.


created: 2001-10-25 11:46:12
subject: <b>Sorry, but totally wrong</b>
body:
If ungentling Logain had to do with the taint, how was Nynaeve able to heal Siuan and Leanne?<br /><br />Sorry, but Nynaeve's ungentling has nothing to do with the taint. If it did, then it would have no effect on female channelers.


created: 2001-10-26 01:45:50
subject: <b>but something that i noticed</b>
body:
<br />is that Logain has the Talent of seeing Ta'veren... he saw Rand when he was in the courtyard in from of the Royal Palace in Caemlyn.. Rand was afar, and Logain commented that &quot;the man shone show brightly that I knew he was going to shake the world.. i couldn't help but laughing..&quot;<br /><br />okay, that's not a direct quote from the book, but it's the essence.. it's about 3/4 of the way through LoC, right after Logain is Healed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve Al'Meara <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Trench Coat&#8482; Owner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 01:42:49
subject: <b>Great Glory</b>
body:
I'd just like to point out that when males were healed from being Gentled they returned to their full power were as females didn't, What if the dark one managed to re-taint it and Logain coming after used this technique to keep all the black tower sane. (There would be no reason for them not to submit to being gentled then healed since they return to their full power) and so stopped another breaking, this would bring him lots of glory and whatever.


created: 2001-11-27 11:37:57
subject: <b>mchez6</b>
body:
I believe that it is widely excepted that the reason that the women channlers were not healed to full strength is that they were healed by another women, when the women in the aiel camp were healed by a man they were healed back to full strength and when Logain was healed by a women he was healed back to full strength.


created: 2002-04-28 04:14:33
subject: <b>Sumeko</b>
body:
I think sumeko and that other Aes Sedai who was with cadsuane who I just can't remember the name of which also started with s...I think they could heal it too. Their skill is up there with the pros...


created: 2004-07-18 13:51:33
subject: <b>I dont agree BUT</b>
body:
if it was true and he could figure out how to do it, he could travel to the Land of the MadMen (or whatever the third continent is called) and cure all the male channelers there and bring a HUGE force of male channelers to the Westlands and um ya, im going to shut up now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 18:43:40
subject: <b>70 Years</b>
body:
I think this theory is very interesting. But I would like to know what she has planned for so long. For 70 years! If she was Corianin Nedal, I would think she planned this more than just 70 years, since Corianin use to live around 400 years before the storyline in the Wheel of Time. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 20:35:58
subject: <b>I like this theory, quite a bit, actually...</b>
body:
As for the 70 year plan, think of this:<br /><br />Dreaming is not as precise as Foretelling.  Corianan could have had a Dream that she was needed in the future, or that she was in danger.  Perhaps she discovered something she shouldn't have, I don't know. However, later, she had a Dream regarding Rand and co.  Let's assume that this Dream occurred, oh let's just say about 70 years ago, hmmm?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Jeremy H. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><b><font color="#cc33ff"><br />Run far and fast when a wizard frowns.<br />Run faster when he smiles.<br /></font></b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 21:29:47
subject: <b>Ummm.... Check please!</b>
body:
Some interesting info, but too much of Verins PoV's have given the impression that she is a modern woman. Also it's been hinted that being bound to the oath rod shortesn ones life span. So if Verin has been bound to it twice she'd be dead by now.<br /><br />   Also since there's no evidence that woman sho aren't stilled as a cause for being loosed from the oaths lose their ageless looks (quite the contrary they seem to keep it) that'd mean that Coriannin would have had to wait until every sister at the tower that would recognize her was dead. Then go there as a novice, and just kind of hope that none of the other sisters would notice that she had the ageless look of an Aes Sedai even though she just arrived at the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 21:33:04
subject: <b>Probably not...</b>
body:
And for two main reasons. First, because I don't think you can double-cross the DO and get off so easily. If Verin had *not* been a DF for 70 or so years, don't you think someone would've noticed? She would've had to fail the DO or his minions at some point, and we know what happens to those people-- death and destruction a la Carridin.  Secondly (and granted, a much smaller objection but it's still in opposition to the theory), Alanna only starts obeying Verin with alacrity because she bonds Rand, which she *really* shouldn't have done, and which she'd get in big trouble for if Verin ever told. So Verin's sort of blackmailing Alanna. Before that, Alanna was a bit vague and out of commission because her Warder had just died, and she was crying half the time. So I think that Alanna's subservience to Verin is coincidental, and would've happened just the same if any other Aes Sedai had been there.<br />But if you can find a way around those, I guess it's *possible*... I just don't see it happening. Verin may well be a more sinister figure than people expect, but I don't see her as this double-crossing Super Darkfriend or something. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~Jynna<br />(who will now crawl back into her shadows whence she came...)


created: 2001-10-24 07:15:28
subject: <b>Losing ageless look...</b>
body:
To Lord Savaunt:<br /><br />If Verin was bound by the Oaths for a sufficiently short time, she would be quite unaffected by the fact that she ages faster when bound.<br /><br />What indicates that people losing the Oaths by other ways than Stilling does NOT lose the ageless look? We have not had any relevant cases yet. It should take days if not weeks(judging from the Amico Stilling) for someone to lose the Ageless look. No one in the books have been without the Oaths for that amount of time. It's still more reasonable to believe they actually WOULD lose the Ageless look.<br /><br />Of course, Verin as Corianin makes no sense at all anyway. She WOULD be dead in all likelihood (even if she had NEVER been bound by the Oaths), or the very least have an ageless look like Vandene or so, almost looking old despite being ageless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 07:59:49
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
Just going on Verin's POVs, surely if RJ was going to reveal this to us we'd have had some sort of hints at it.<br /><br />The dreamer thing? It would be strange that Verin, as a brown, in all her 400 years of living, never went to the waste. She is extremely interested when she first meets an Aielman and wants to know as much as possible, as she knows so little. Plus, if she had gone to the waste, it seems quite likey one of the Wise Ones would have seen her.<br /><br />Also, why would she be so much better than the Wise Ones? They have had years of experience, learning from one another, whereas Verin would have had to work alone.<br /><br />I just don't buy it.


created: 2001-10-24 15:56:01
subject: <b>to Yubi</b>
body:
Ah, but we have had sisters not bound to the rod for a very extended period of time... the Black Ajah! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-24 16:47:42
subject: <b>Good points</b>
body:
Yubi you're right about not having examples of Aes Sedai that were not using the oath rod very long. The ones I was thinking of were the tower Aes Sedai that are hunting the BA. Of course they only spent a few hours with out the oaths.<br /><br />   Hey Rand AL'Thor I think that the BA do have their own oaths. I think it was Galina that thought about replaceing the oaths of traditional Aes Sedai with 3 new ones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 20:35:55
subject: <b>Unlikely Truth</b>
body:
Verin still seems to be bound by the oath rods and I don't see any conclusive proof that she is an agent of the Dark One.  Her 70 year plan is just that, 70 years old.  I would expect her plan to be longer if she really was 400 years old.


created: 2001-10-25 15:55:18
subject: <b>Verin and Corianin Nedeal</b>
body:
I've always thought that the reason Verin did not give Egwene the notes about the Ring was because she was not sure if Corianin Nedeal had been a darkfriend. Remember that the BA who stole items from the tower stole items that had all been studied by Corianin Nedeal. So if Verin was afraid that Corianin was BA then should wouldn't want to give Egwene any information that might put her in danger while trying to use the ring.


created: 2001-10-25 18:19:36
subject: <b>To standby: I disagree...</b>
body:
The BA didn't steal things BECAUSE they had something to do with Corianin Nedeal. They stole them because they were related to tel'aranriod. Corianin was a Dreamer and interested in ter'angreal. It's just reasonable she would study that kind of ter'angreal, and there is nothing in particular we know of, apart from that fact, that connects her in any way to the BA.<br /><br />I also don't believe any Black Ajah ever would write down something pointing them out as Black Ajah, even where no one should normally find it. The rules for the BA is very strict, and it's fully possible they are even restricted from doing such a thing, with their three Oaths (whatever they might be).<br /><br />Now, Verin contemplated giving the notes to Egwene, but chose not to. It's more likely (in my opinion), that they contained some sort of warning or note, that, if given to Egwene, might have made her not even want to go into TAR. Some think it has to do with the Black Ajah, but it could as well be more or less anything that is dangerous in TAR (and we don't know the BA has used TAR for long), or even something very much different. I think it will come out eventually, so we'll have to wait and see...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 23:22:03
subject: <b>This is totally impossible</b>
body:
In TDR, Verin is in her study, alone, thinking about Corianin Nedeal's papers.<br />Get that? In her study. Alone. Thinking in the privacy of her own mind. So she must be thinking the truth, or what she believes is the truth.<br />She thinks ABOUT Corianin, about how Corianin was &quot;A secretive woman...she[Corianin] had kep by far the greater part of her knowledge from everyone, trusting it only to these pages. Only chance and a habit of rummaging  through old papers in tyhe library had led Verin to them.&quot;<br />Now, unless you want to suggest that Verin/Corianin thinks about herself in the third person, and loses a lifetime's worth of notes only to find them because she was rummaging through old papers....so, Verin could only be Corianin if everyone else's objections weren't valid(which they are) AND she's lost her memory.<br />People do not think about themselves in the third person. Verin does not do that in any other book; why would she do it for three lines of one? She isn't Corianin. End of story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 01:04:12
subject:
<b>Very good, Ruriha Sedai!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Well, cheers to you, Ruriha Sedai!! I was reading everybody's comments, hoping somebody had already pointed out the fact that Verin is thinking about Corianin as a seperate person.. I was starting to dispair, for digging through those books for information requires effort...And then, you posted your comment. Thanx!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />Squall Thrawn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Singer of the Song that need never be Sung<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />An all-around kewl guy who has a &quot;gay&quot; old time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><i>Examine all obstacles carefully. With ingenuity, they may be turned into levers.</i> -Grand Admiral Thrawn</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 12:05:39
subject: <b>as much as I loved this theory.....</b>
body:
No, it just doesn't work. Not at all. I would love to be able to sit here and say 'oh my, hasn't RJ been so clever' but I can't, coz however lovely this theory is, just no, it couldn't work.


created: 2001-11-14 04:28:47
subject: <b>Verin's Mist of Madness....</b>
body:
Actually, I like this theory alot, the only problem I see with it is that Verin couldn't possibly be that old now could she?  However, with everything in Randland, there is and can always be an explanation for everything.  If she was indeed (is) Corianin Nedeal (spelling?) then we know she is a dreamer, and with the White Towers professed knowledge of all things, coupled with Nedeal's prowess in the world of dreams, could she not have simply entered and dwelled in the world of dreams herself instead of just disappearing like the theory states, thereby allowing years to pass on by in an instant (remeber that time flows differently in the world of dreams, Nedeal would surely know this and be able to use it to her advantage.)  And having seen and interpreted the future events to come and considering her own fate/destiny regarding her time of death, she knew she must live until such time as she would be able to lend a guiding/helping hand to current events.  Therefore this theory is nice and I fully agree with it except for the aformentioned disappearance/reappearance and I believe that Nedeal/Verin was Sylvie and not Lanfear.  Think about it damnit, I'm freakn' right for sure.....after all I am never wrong, see if I'm not..


created: 2001-12-06 14:00:57
subject: <b>dreaming ability</b>
body:
Corianin Nedeal's talent in dreaming was abare minimum.if you remeber correctly one aes sedai said she was barely fit for the title because she didnot have a lot of strength in dreaming


created: 2002-03-06 15:14:05
subject: <b>Fun to visit, wouldn't wanna live there.</b>
body:
The theory was an interesting read but I doesn't really sound plausable. Something is definitely up with Verin, but I'm pretty sure if even from the Prologue to TGH that you can't just wave to the DO and say &quot;Well, I'm done being a Darkfriend for a while! Buh-bye!&quot;<br /><br />It just don't work.<br /><br />PS: Verin Rocks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="174565">Yeah, it'll be more like the best MadTV sketch ever made ever. The one that you watch a go &quot;Um, that sketch was way too funny to be on MadTV.&quot;</font></b></font> ~ <i>Sore Thumbs</i><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><img src="images/personalsmilies/11141.gif" /><p><a href="http://www.wotmania.com/writersmessageboardshowmes" target="_blank">Stossville Zombie Incident: Episode One</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 18:50:08
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
good.  it does seem a little far-fetched but it is a well thought up theory in general.  i have the feeling that verin isn't all she seems, and some things in here, if not all, might be right.


created: 2005-03-06 20:46:02
subject: <b>Ha!</b>
body:
OK, but how come the Aiel dreamwalkers never mention seeing her in Tel'aran'rhiod? They mention seeing the Forseaken, and they eventually learn who Verin is. I don't think that even if she is such a superior dreamwalker they wouldn't have once noticed, especially when she becomes an &quot;apprentice&quot; and is living with them.


created: 2001-10-24 12:45:40
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
At the moment when the hole was opened into the seal the dark one wasn't loosed.  It took a long time for his touch on the world to get stronger.  It would seem to me that by your theory that when the first of the seals broke and the dork one could start touching the world even a little the sky should have gone dark.


created: 2001-10-24 13:17:13
subject: <b>I would believe it if I was a 2 Dawner.</b>
body:
Nice idea.  Trouble is I don't believe it.<br /><br />As I mentioned in a previous post there are two interpretations of twice dawns the day: the literal one day dawns twice (2 Dawns) and the poetic there are two different days his blood is shed (2 Days).<br /><br />As an avid 2 Dayer, I find it hard to believe that a day dawns twice.  (It can happen poetically with eclipses.  It happens someplaces on Mercury with its elliptical orbit. I believe it can happen on Earth near the poles in certain strange circumstances.  None of these things are inherently interesting or add to the plot, though.)  That the dark one could cause darkness that disipates thus having the same day dawn twice poetically is the first 2 dawn theory that might make for an interesting story.  <br /><br />I still don't believe it but it makes it easier for me to enter the 2 dawner camp, for short periods.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 17:13:12
subject: <b>dwood...</b>
body:
...sorry, you&#180;re wrong. The breaking of the first seal did <b>NOT</b> re-open the bore completely, it still remains covered until ALL seals are broken. It&#180;s much like the lid of a cookpot. It&#180;s not completely tight anymore, so the steam (and in this case a few smaller creatures like the Forsaken) can escape, but not the whole content. Thus the effects of a full opening (e.g. the flash of darkness) will not happen until that event.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 17:21:34
subject: <b>Hah!</b>
body:
It's pretty funny, just earlier today I posted the same idea as a blackboard post for another of these topics. It was before this post was put up so I didn't copy and you almost certainly sent this in before I posted so you didn't copy. Just great minds I guess...<br /><br />The main reason I don't actually think it's that likely is...well, it's a bit boring isn't it? Plus it's hardly important enough for prophecy to mention. While it fits in with the prophecy nicely and seems quite likely compared to many other ideas (as it's not just speculation but based on previous circumstances), I just don't think RJ would use that.


created: 2001-10-25 04:15:19
subject: <b>2nd dawn?</b>
body:
Hello there<br />This sounds good to me.  There should be no problem with it being somewhat poetic either, it is fantasy after all.  Would it not be more likely that the Last Battle is conducted in the darkness of the DO's (temporary) return?  (It would probably be raining too - hmmm)  Thus the 2nd dawn would be the end of the battle.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beidomon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The prime duty of the physician is to amuse the patient until nature can cure them.&quot;<br /><br />Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 20:15:27
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
great idea, i think it makes good sense, and doesn't require a million things to happen perfectly to work out, good job <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===========================<br />The cynics are right nine times out of ten.<br />HENRY MENCKEN<br />Funny how just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does.<br />DOUGLAS ADAMS<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I attempt to make everyone&#8217;s day a little happier. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 00:25:53
subject: <b>Pretty Good</b>
body:
I agree with your idea except for a few points,<br />1: the Dark One has NEVER been freed so he can't turn the sky black (but it would look cool in a movie)<br />2: If the Dark One was freed then ever channler in the world would have to confront him using ever sa'angreal and angreal in existence (mabye all the ter'angreal as well)<br />3: the Creator wouldn't let the Dark One escape<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />The Wheel of Time turns, knowledge becomes legend, legend becomes myth and even myth has faded when the Age that gave birth to it returns again.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Fear the Fimbulwinter Wolves for Ragnarok is coming. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 18:23:26
subject: <b>A good example of KISS</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I wanted to compliment you for proposing this. The idea is simple, straightforward, and believable. I don't think you've got it right, but it's possible. <br /><br />Personally, I think given the prophecy that Balefire will be the cause of the double dawn, especially since I expect some of the great sa'angreal to be used in the Last Battle. I'm also reminded of the fact that the Last Battle happens on every world, remember Verin's lecture about how the Dark One is imprisoned on all worlds because there is only 1 Dark One... I think the decisive conflict will have to occur in the World of Dreams (sorry I can't remember how to spell it), because that World exists between all worlds. It is the one common connection. Sorry, I know this is a bit off-topic but I did want to give you some credit for coming up with such a neat solution.


created: 2004-02-20 20:11:14
subject: <b>This is what I was thinking...</b>
body:
but I don't know if the DO will actually get out of his prison. I don't think that anyone can actually stuff him back in once that happens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-28 19:27:58
subject: <b>the sky did go dark when the bore was first drilled...</b>
body:
&quot;What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it descended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white sphere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness. People were screaming, screaming everywhere.&quot;<br /><br />I guess you would need another Sharom to reproduce the effects, but the first time it DID cover the sun and im assuming afterwards it looked like the sun dawned again, an eclipse as you might say.


created: 2006-10-09 19:36:14
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
hey<br />with the idea of the 2 dayer i belive this is rather possible due to the fact with balefire u can remover ppl form time and when ashaman travel the rip holes in the wheel so therefore y cant sum ie the dark one rip a hole in time to replay sum thing........?


created: 2007-11-21 21:35:18
subject: <b>True Power?</b>
body:
This theory really seems to make sense. The bore was presumably an unwitting effort to reach the TP, and when it was actually reached, the sky went dark. Look at the prologue to tEotW, when Ishmael uses &quot;a power&quot;, Lews Therin can't sense     it so it must be the true power. What happens then? <br /><br />&quot;The light dimmed as if a shadow had been lain across the sun&quot;(tEotW xi).<br /><br />When the seals are broken, we can assume the dark one will be put more of the true power in the world (as with Merien's experiment) and the day would quite dramatically dim.


created: 2008-05-07 04:57:01
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
This actually made a lot of sense to me as well, as we saw in Rands Rhuidan experiense the Dark One  made that black flash in the sky. He can probably only do this when there is no blockage, giving him the possibility of putting his entire &quot;hand&quot; on the world.<br /><br />On a different note my guess is that during the last 3000 or so years it was impossible to &quot;talk&quot; to the DO much of the time, perhaps only when Ishamael was free. This would explain why the Myrddraal became the defacto leaders of the Shadowspawn armies and why so manny Dark Creatures &quot;devolved&quot;. (The Jummara or &quot;Worms&quot; no longer transforms).<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-24 14:16:57
subject: <b>other possibilities</b>
body:
Shienar/Malkier has elements of Japanese culture during the Shogunate with the haiku style poetry and zen minimalist decor....Saldea is much like Turkey, even in the physical appearance of the Saldeans and in their reliance on horsemanship....Tear is also very much like Spain<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 15:50:49
subject: <b>Me Gusta</b>
body:
I like it. I have had the same thoughts considering the various races.  I think that perhaps some of the cultures are made up and have little or no basis in cultures today.  But, I am of the faction that believes that the period the book covers is that of our distant future when we discover the One Power and that time is actually circular (for various reasons that I will not expand on here.) It makes sense that some basic cultures would survive that long. We do have many cultural clues sprinkled throughout the books, such as the Andorans modestness and practicality that are associated with the english of old. An interesting fact is that Moiraine's name is French (MWAH-RAIN) but that brings up an interesting issue: So is the name, Seanchan (SHAWN-CHAN). So maybe names don't relate to anything, but it's kind of interesting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-24 15:53:21
subject: <b>usa</b>
body:
i always thought that it looked like a backwards usa.  there's illian which can be texas, and there's the windbiter's finger which can be florida.  but that's really all the similarities, i always just thought it was funny


created: 2001-10-24 17:33:15
subject: <b>England</b>
body:
I always have connected Morgase with Queen Elizabeth I, the red hair being the main reason, but everything about her jsut seemed to conenct to what I learned of the character in history.....fine, Blackadder.<br /><br />I think Andor being based on England is certainly true, except of course RJ has taken away the defining feature of England in the past, the fact that we were an island and had a very strong navy. Oh and the fact that Andor has a palace, whereas that is more conitinental Europe than England, where there were mainly castles due to us being invaded so damn often.<br /><br />I thought this was a good theory, clearly RJ has based different places on different cultures (you didn't talk about architecture much which is strange), only often he has mixed them together.


created: 2001-10-24 23:46:38
subject: <b>personally</b>
body:
I try to go with the way people talk to associate them with different countries.  The ones more obvious to me are that Taraboners seem to have a French accent (looks good, no?)  and that Illian has an element of Scottish to me.  Maybe I'm off base, and if so, who cares.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 00:44:35
subject: <b>A Minor Nit-Pick</b>
body:
I think you got Illian and Tear reversed in the theory, which does kinda make the whole left-right thing irrelevant, but hey, I've been wrong before.  For years I thought that Cairhien was south of Andor.<br />Nice parallels, esp. the Land of the Madmen, but on the whole I think there's nothing terribly significant in this.  It's cool to figure out where Jordan drew his ideas from, but obviously they've been altered, so this theory's usefulness is limited.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 00:47:33
subject: <b>Good job!</b>
body:
I never thought of the Westlands ( can we get the Randland name banned? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) that way, but come to think of it, i'll try to help out.  <br /><br />First off, I always thought England was Andor. Maybe because of the central part in played in the colonisation of the world. Secondly, Cairhien is defenetily France. Being french canadien, i always spelled Moiraine in a french way. But i have to say, that you can't say Seanchan in french, sorry alThor. <br /><br />I maybe though that Spain could be Tarabon, it's along the coast next to Illian and Tear ( Rome and Greece), plus the architecture seems alike.  The Seanchan meaning America, with the different accent and all, that leaves Arad Doman.  Know any place where they are alot of sexy women??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mike Weir, Canadian golfer, world master!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 00:59:59
subject: <b>Weeeeeeeeeeee</b>
body:
If the isle of madmen is australia, that means at some point andor is going to send a fleet of ships there to colonise it and establish a penal colony. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I doubt it though. But yeah, I liked this theory a lot. I can't help but start thinking of every country and what it could be on earth. I think that the Aeil waste could represent nortern africa and the nomads that used to roam the sahara desert. And the sea folk? who can say... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 01:23:33
subject: <b>More possibilities...</b>
body:
I actually always thought Tarabon was Middle Eastern, because of the veil the women have to wear. The Borderlands never seemed Middle Eastern at all to me-- maybe because they're so cold. I saw them actually as closer to Scythian society. And Mayene is (currently) independent, and has been for years; Sicily was pretty routinely taken over. I think the Phoenicians were first, followed by the Greeks (who had colonies there by the Pelopponesian War), and then the Romans (who had gotten control by the Punic Wars). I don't see Tairens taking over Mayene any time soon, either (though that may just be me). But basically, I think (and agree with the others who've said this already) that you can't draw 1:1 parallels here; the Aiel, for example, are certainly not based on one culture. I think RJ has said so himself. And if the Aiel are based on more than one culture, it only seems natural that elements of more than one culture would be combined in the other countries too. WoT isn't G. G. Kay, guys. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  But I agree with most of the potential sources you've listed...<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-10-25 02:16:16
subject: <b>Little note about Seanchan</b>
body:
Just a quick note.  Seanchan (or more specifically the way they prounounced it) is actually pronounced the same way as the ancient Chinese called themselves.  At least, this is what I was taught in one of my myriad of history classes.


created: 2001-10-25 17:02:15
subject: <b>Persia</b>
body:
the beautiful women sound like Persians maybe even Arabs from Spain about 1100 A.D.  The women were known for their beauty.  Read &quot;The Walking Drum&quot; by Louis L'amour.  He talks about them and the culture of that time.  Great Book!!  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> L'amour is awsome<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-25 19:14:20
subject: <b>Tarabon= turkey</b>
body:
i thinks that jynna is right. you know when jullin was in tarabon he got himself a red, round and with a flat top. if i don't remember wrong doesn't turkish people wear that. and as tear=rom illian=greece the next country in that direction is turkey, not spain as some one said..


created: 2001-10-26 10:43:10
subject: <b>RE: Good Job (by preef)</b>
body:
I have recently been thinking of Tarabod and Arad Doman as Spain and Portugal (not nessecarily which is which though)because they are similar in ways and culture yet have a bitter feud.<br /><br />My only problem is i think the veils are a big part of it and i don't know of the Spanish wearing veils.<br /><br />Saidin<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-10-26 16:52:44
subject: <b>More Parallels</b>
body:
How about Murandians are Irish? <br />The accents sound similar, and I've always thought that when comparing &quot;Westland&quot; ethnicities to Earth, the bits of Oriental culture, clothing and geograph should not be counted.  Nearly every land has some Asian elements, from Tairan commoners' hats and clogs, which resemble Chinese Peasants, to Shienaran topknots, poetry, armor, and austere concept of beauty which resemble Japanese. There are also Domani chopsticks, Seanchan concept of &quot;face&quot; and Aiel martial arts.  The sword form practiced in every land are Asian in origin and blademaster's swords resemble Asian weapons more than Western.  My point is you can't necessarily say a country is Japan because their soldiers resemble Samurai (Dai Shan?). I think physical features and names are more indicative. I agree that most ofthe Illianer nobles have Greek sounding names, but I believe the Tairens are Spanish (Siuan Sanche/Sanchez; Weiramon Saniago/ Santiago), the Altarans Italian (Olive skin; tempers), the Andorans Britons (Arthurian names-Morgase, Elayne Gawyn Pelivar, et al.) not necessarily English, Cairhienin are French (Moiraine, Dobraine, the slight builds, pale skin and dark hair,and the reptedly Gallic mix of passion and reserve) I believe from the moustasches, the Germanic names (Andric Amathera Liandrin) and the accents (Ve haf vays off making you talk, yes?) that Tarabon may be Germany. The hats are called Fez in real life, and come from Northern Africa, which produces very few &quot;honey-haired&quot; women.  Finally, I believe the To Rivers is Wales.  Welsh are Celtic peple, and there was a Celtic feast called Beltane, and of course the Welsh were known for the longbow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 20:01:37
subject: <b>Somehow...</b>
body:
I think that these WoT/Earth comparison FAQs will be <i>long</i>.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 15:59:01
subject: <b>Nother thought</b>
body:
If the border lands are the middle eastern cultures, then Malkier was India. Notice the Kisain on Nynaeves fore head. That seems to be like the one that Hindu women wear.<br /><br />   Never noticed that the map of the Westlands looked like a backwards USA. Nifty. I like tho think of seanchan as an america where the Indians won. SUre the armies of Hawkwing won, but they became natives and mixed with the aboriginals folk.<br /><br />   I think that this is what has happened to a lot of cultures. They have mixed blood and traditions. So anyone culture can probably be linked to two or three others. Y'know the melting pot theory taken to a zenith.<br /><br />   By the way maybe Seanchan is to the east of the West Lands. Perhaps if Hawking had taken over Shara he could have sent an expedition east word across that ocean and still found seanchan. After all if you go west from califonria you'll soon be in the far east of japan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-02 08:33:04
subject: <b>Just a thought.....</b>
body:
I think a better description of The Westlands is a huge England, with lots of different cultures living there..... after all, they all speak english <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-04 19:03:48
subject: <b>Nice.</b>
body:
Nice job.  I have often thought that some names and places seem to parallel with cultures here on Earth.  But man, you've gone and went into pretty straight up detail.  What an interesting and new theory!!


created: 2001-11-11 19:41:15
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
Cool theory, but i got a question.  What would be the Seanchan's culture representation.  It would have to be a culture in the time of Rome and the such that attempted to overtake most of Europe and some of the Middle East.


created: 2001-12-14 19:43:41
subject: <b>What about Amadica?</b>
body:
What about Amadica?  No one seems to be able to connect it to anything...although the Children do remind me of the Knight's Templar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duriora Virtus<br /><br />If anyone can translate that into English, e-mail me, please.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 16:27:31
subject: <b>You're an idiot</b>
body:
I didn't read the whole of your theory, but I need to knock one part of it before I go on.  There was never a period of mutual dislike between Greece and Rome that at all resembles the relationship between Illian and Tear.  First things first.  Alexander the Great is Macedonian, not Greek, but thats an acceptable and common misconception.  Second, he lived WAY before Rome became ascendant and never fought against them.  Third, Rome rose to power and a position of powerful cultural influence as Greece declined.  The interaction between the two cultures was a strong greek influence on the Roman, not a battle between the two.  There are more points to this that I don't really want to get into right now because this post will be too long.  But I think a better selection for Illian (if Tear is based on Rome) would be Carthage, a city state with whom Rome had a prolonged and bloody conflict.  I don't think your theory in and of itself is wrong, just some of your reasoning.


created: 2002-01-13 14:55:33
subject: <b>A few corrections...</b>
body:
The borderlands (top-knots, small horses, skilled horseman, fierce warriors and all) and much more similar to Mongolian society under the great kahns than turkey and/or arab societies.<br /><br />Arad Doman (willowy women, cunning merchants) strikes me as an analogy for the Persian empire...right down to the eye/skin color descriptions of Domanis.<br /><br />Tarabon could very well be taken from the Ottoman empire, although the similarities are not as strong as with others.<br /><br />If you want a society analogous to Turkey, look toward Altara and the Ebou Daris.  Shipping culture, white open buildings, darker skinned, dark eyed, quick to anger and forget...<br /><br />And don't forget the Spanish Inquisitors of Amadicia...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Discoverer of logical inconsistencies  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 14:55:08
subject: <b>Call me dumb, but...</b>
body:
If anyone else has looked at the Guide to WoT (the big white book), I think that they will see the comparison between Seanchan culture and Chinese/Japanese.<br /><br />The armour worn by the soldiers is very Samurai, the images in the book indicate slightly slanted eyes (on damane and sul'dam). The only thing is, I assume that the Seanchan continent is roughly where the Americas are located? If the world of the Wheel is actually Earth, then who the heck lives on Seanchan? Is it likely that the people in Shara are also Oriental, and made the trip across the sea to colonise the far continent?<br /><br />That aside, as we don't know much about cultural distribution during the age of legends, its hard to say which cultures would have been thrown where. The Aiel didn't always live in the Waste, so what did they represent before the fall? If anyone thinks this is true, or can put me right, post something on here.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> even in order there is chaos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In Chaos there rises Order, but even in Order there is Chaos</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-26 14:44:19
subject: <b>Good thought</b>
body:
I am so bad at remembering politics of stuff, but those of us who know some history, know that Germany and France are not exactly friendly, so, any country which disliked Cairhein would be a pretty good candidate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Niella <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Top of Cool<br />No Animosity<br />Invisible Poster<br />March 2005 Kalin's Official Strangely Odd but Cool Person of the Month<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 01:20:42
subject: <b>it's late and i can't think of a title...</b>
body:
i have to agree that seanchan is at least largely based on japan/china.  there are just too many similarities:<br />1) As Max Von Beck pointed out, the armour is very much like samurai armor.<br />2) In asia, when you do something shameful, it's called losing face.  seems pretty similar to the concept of downcast eyes.<br />3) in seanchan, the nobility shave their heads.  there was a period of chinese history where it was customary for males to keep their foreheads shaved.  also, during feudal japan, boys would keep their forelocks (the hair in front) fairly long.  then when they became men, this forelock would be cut, and thereafter kept short.  <br />4)the lacquered(sp?) nails.  in both china and japan, lacquer was highly sought after and a demonstration of wealth.  in seanchan, the nobility lacquer their nails and keep them long.<br /><br />two other things that i didn't notice anyone mention:  <br />1) the symbols of both England and Andor are the lion.<br />2) the symbol of cairhien is a sun.  louis XIV, possibly the most famous french king ever, was called the sun king.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-10-22 19:01:04
subject: <b>more on cultures</b>
body:
Okay I agree whole heartedly to the Andor-England(caemlyn-camelot), Cairhein-France(getting punded by a superior neighboring power twice in about 20 years), Illian-Greece(can you say olive groves) connections.  But I see Tear as Spain, for many reasons: baggy sleeves, dark skin, names, the stone=rock of gibraltor fortress(tho it is held by the english), the oiled mustaches... the list goes on.  I cant agree with the two rivers=wales connection on one feature--eye color, blue eyes are common among celtic people and the often mention rand has the only light eyes they had ever seen before leaving the two rivers.  I also agree with the Boderlands being Mongols... that is a clear connection.  The Seanchan and the Aiel I think are combinations of multiple cultures.  The is VERY japanese to me armour and behavior, but the feel of the situation is very American to me... Colonized and then left alone to return to the world stage as a military super power with a specail weapon that no one can stand against (damane=atomic bomb). Finally I think the Aiel area cross between the Native Americans and  Zulu, dressing up and sneaking around like ninjas.  Disagree as you will,<br />Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-02 19:29:02
subject: <b>Babylon</b>
body:
Nothing to do with culture, but in a footnote to the  Bible I use it mentions that the Hebrew for Babylonia is <i>Shinar</i>.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Aliena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Preserver of Sanity<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Yawgmoth's alter-ego <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Calciferous Conjurer! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-25 18:32:36
subject: <b>a new comprehensive list</b>
body:
Ok I will do this in alphabetical order (I think) and will try not to leave anything out.<br />Aiel:<br />The US.  <br />Very strong militarily <br />generally looked down upon for our culture by the rest of the world<br />very little in the way of class distinctions<br /><br />Altera:<br />Reminds me of Rome during the decline, the Monarch is very week when compared to the nobles, and the dynisties are short lived.<br /><br />Amadicia:<br />Switzerland (I think, I get Switzerland and Sweeden confused, I am referring to the on in the middle of Europe)<br />The CotL are what leads me to this conclusion, before the Nepoleonic wars the Swiss mercenaries were the most feard in the world.<br /><br />Andor:<br />England<br />Andors greatest enemy historically is Cairhien, and they also do a great deal of trade with Cairhien.  And the noble/royal lines of both countries are quite muddled.<br />I have read that England's national symbol is the Lion, as is Andor's.  <br />The Andoran Monarchs are subject to the law, England was the first of the modern European nations to see this.<br />Andor looks down on Murandy.<br /><br />Arad Doman:<br />I believe that this is an Asian culture, I am not sure which, but they have several Asian traits.<br /><br />Borderlands:<br />I believe that these are the Norse cultures.  Very proud and strong, glorring in the harshness of their winters.<br /><br />Cairhien:<br />France<br />They are far better at intreage than war.<br />They are historically enemies of Andor<br />They trade hevealy with Andor.<br />Their bloodlines are very mixed with those of Andor.<br /><br />Ghealdan:<br />I am not sure of this one.  Maybe the Balkins, they both seem to be filled with turmoil.<br /><br />Illian:<br />Imperial Rome<br />You have the Senate (Council of Nine)<br />The emorer (King)<br />They are also disdainful of the govening system used in Tear.<br /><br />Mayene:<br />Greece<br />Greece was bullied by the Roman Republic<br />The Greeks were great sailors and traders.<br /><br />Murandy<br />Ireland<br />Very week and bullied by Andor.<br /><br />Seachan:<br />Germany<br />A very structured and militaristic society.<br /><br />Sea Folk:<br />Arabs<br />The Arabs are traditionally sailors and traders, and I have heard that they were also fairly independant of the state.<br /><br />Shara:<br />China<br />The land of silk.<br />Fearful of outsiders.<br />Very structured and stable society.<br />Land of mistery.<br /><br />Tarabon:<br />An Asian Culture, not sure which.<br /><br />Tar Valon:<br />Avalon (I know not a real place)<br />Ruled by those with the One Power, a city generally avoided by outsiders, but eminantly feared and respected by them.<br /><br />Tear:<br />The Roman Republic:<br />Disdainful of any society ruled by a monarch.<br />Bullies Meyene.<br />Fights against movement towards a monarch (Illian)<br /><br />I think thats everybody, the reason I did not use the Middle Eastern cultures more is that traditionally most of them did not use the set piece theory of war fare.<br />


created: 2005-01-09 10:06:53
subject: <b>new spring</b>
body:
i think that malkier bears a great a great similarity to japan as does shienar. their whole way of life seems to resemble budokai to me. the topknots and value of peace, tranquility and discipline screams samuri at me. by the way, does anyone else think that the malkieri armour displayed at the start of lan chapters in new spring looks samuri?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 19:08:30
subject: <b>Your taking the point to far.</b>
body:
I think that what needs to be considered is the possibility that the world of WoT is our world in the future (or an alternate one - portal stones), but any cultural similarities can't necessarily be said to come from any one parent culture.  <br /><br />Racially:<br />Already our world is on the way to becoming ever more multi-cultural with gene-pools constantly being mixed.  Now I get the impression we are in the age prior to the AoL (though I could well be wrong), and we know the AoL was loong (they had forgotten war), that they had a world government (I think) and that they had world wide travel.  This means there's an awful lot of time (and no segregation) in which races as we know them could well become homogenised. <br />Now, when something like the Breaking occurs humanity is isolated in separate locales with little or no mixing.  This would allow racial characteristics that are either beneficial or prevalent to become the norm.<br /><br />Culture:<br />After such a long period of time I don't really think culture is going to pass on, especially considering the level from which humanity had to rebuild during the breaking.<br /><br />Geography/Geology:<br />This I find a bit hard.  At first I'd say the whole main continent would be Europe/Asia, whilst seanchan is the Americas, but then where are the Himalayas?  I know the male Aes Sedai went mad, but still individually (madmen don't usually work together), would they have had the power to level the Himalayas?<br />Which is all beside the point anyway.  During the breaking, land became sea(ocean?) and vice versa, so maybe there are no geographical comparisons to be made.<br /><br />Conclusion:<br />Yes the world of the WoT is Earth of the future, but there the comparisons end.<br /><br /><br />I could well be completely wrong about all of this.  Either way let me know what you think.<br /><br />Thurlor<br /><br /><br />mijraven@supernerd.com.au


created: 2005-12-28 22:26:24
subject: <b>The Two Rivers</b>
body:
I have always thought of Andor as England but not The Two Rivers. I'm a big fan of the American Revolution and even though The Two Rivers isn't really like the US at all, I have always pictured them that way. They are a small corner of the world that no one really pays attention to and in fact, underestimates. Yet, the characters of the area become crucial to the story and take the world by storm. It just reminds me of the farmers and stableboys and such that fought the American Revolution against the world's greatest military power and won.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Min should make herself more useful and fall off a cliff. And take Elayne with her. And Elaida. (For good measure)<br /><br />Even Tom was frothing at the mouth.- Trevor<br />Hey! Who killed me?- Nathan<br />I thought we were supposed to not to...</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-20 00:06:42
subject: <b>Aes Sidhe and such</b>
body:
I think that the Aes Sedai are based on the magical irish legend of the Aes Sidhe, which were elf-like magic-users similiar to the female Bean Sidhe or Banshee. I think that the Red Hand Band is based on the ancient flag of the Irish province of Ulster which is identical to that described in the book (red hand on white background). I think that Moiraine is Merlin, Mordeth is Mordred (Arthurian main villain) - Interestingly the name Morgase (Morgause or Morgase) appears in Arthurian legend, she is described as the half sister of Arthur who slept with him and gave birth to Mordred, also Birgitte is clearly based on Brigid, a celtic goddess (and later Christian saint) with similiar sounding names in Ireland, Wales and France. Perhaps Murandy IS Ireland, i am Irish and i am not certain yet though the names are evidence (Lord Cullen etc (Cu Chulainn?)) - the feudal nature of Murandy is not definitive evidence in this regard since all of Europe was feudal in the middle ages (even those who named someone king), not just Ireland.


created: 2006-01-20 01:08:41
subject: <b>Aiel</b>
body:
I see traces of native Americans in the Aiel (Because of their culture of dwelling in tents, living in arid climates and their tribal organisation as well as their shamanistic traditions (Rhuidean etc) involving the making of chiefs), possibly Spartans too because of their ability to move huge distances over land. During book 4 during the wise one sections it was like reading the script for 'Dances With Wolves' at times.<br /><br />The Seanchan i suspect are related to the legend of Atlantis, nearly every fantasy story loosely based on earth history has it's Atlantis - Tolkiens' was called Numenor.<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-25 12:16:21
subject: <b>where does everyone find this stuff?</b>
body:
RJ amazes me with this stuff......you did to T&amp;M....good job!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 13:14:13
subject: <b>hmmm.... maybe we can take this a step further.</b>
body:
hmmmm....  Many people have suggested that Padan Fain could represent Loki.  The only 'goat' with a beard I can think of is Weiramon (unless Cyndane got him).  Maybe it will come to pass. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 14:46:41
subject: <b>Also, about thought and memoery...</b>
body:
I believe the inscription on Mat's <i>ashandarei</i> have thought and memory in it, and the old tongue words are closely like Hugin and Munin.<br /><br />I think, don't quote me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 17:06:30
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
Thats fine as long as we dont have any &quot;Sword of Truth&quot;-like scenes dealing with goats and testicles. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-27 18:18:21
subject: <b>Dude that was pretty</b>
body:
WOW An I thought I was F**ked up in the head. Seriously though cool beans man. That's one of the wackeist I done ever seen.<br /><br />   Maybe someday I'll have my theory about a characters mythological origins see print. I don't think it'll be quite as cool though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 06:06:08
subject: <b>Njord and Skade</b>
body:
Unfortunately for the Njord and Skade theory, Domon and Egeanin are both seafarers. Skade and Njord had an unhappy marriage, cos Skade hated the sea, and spent all her time in the mountains.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 14:48:35
subject: <b>good call</b>
body:
I like this thought, but I'm pretty sure that you are thinking of norse, not germanic mythology.  Norway rules!  And in response to  Seia Cair, not all things are direct copies or else it just wouldn't be original would it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 15:24:03
subject: <b>Another one?!</b>
body:
Seriously, this is insane...how many topics have we had on this subject recently? I quite like it actually, it's kind of like a brainstorming session...hmmm, perhaps wotmania could actually have those every so often for certain things, you know, one week of discussing who killed Asmodeon etc.<br /><br />On to the theory:<br /><br />&quot;How else do you explain him doing things that he would never know how to do before LTT was in his head?&quot;<br /><br />I'd explain it the same way I'd explain healing someone before she knew how.<br /><br />&quot;Rand WILL die at TG. That much is certian&quot;<br /><br />It's not certain at all. For a start, the prophecies don't actually say he will die anywhere and secondly I don't think you can just dismiss Galad, the Aiel and you didn't even mention Rand's children who many (including myself) believe will be born at TG. His blood...I don't see a problem with it being Galad (oh wow, half blood, it's not like prophecy has to be so specific) and I can say my whole family is my blood...doesn't sound wierd to me.<br /><br />Undoubtedly PART of RJ's basis for Rand is Christ, but let's not forget others such as a couple of the Norse gods, the Fisher King, King Arthur...so you can't say that what happened to Christ will happen to Rand. In fact, we know how Jordan twists what we think ahppened so something slightly (or radically) different happened, this could be one of those times. However, if it is Christ it's just as likely that he will rise again for a short time at least, which is what I copnnect to all thsoe comments of Nynaeve not being happy that someone is dead till she's sat with the corpse for 3 days.<br /><br />Of course, the basic idea of your theory that the situation will parallel Christ's death is good, I could just see RJ doing that, suggesting that it was actually the Dark One (the devil), not Christ's (Rand) death that caused the darkness.


created: 2001-10-25 16:57:14
subject: <b>BLOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
It says the &quot;Blood of the DRAGON&quot;. Galad's blood is not the Dragon's blood. The Dragon is the Dragon, none other. <br /><br />A &amp; B mate and have a child; Z.<br /><br />Then B dies. Then A has a child with C; Y.<br /><br />Z=A+B<br /><br />Y=A+C<br /><br />Very simple.<br /><br />Z and Y have different blood. Sheesh, this is pretty straightforward. Don't even get me started on why the Aiel arent his blood. If that was true, then there would be nowhere to draw the line and you would have to include the whole world in his family.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 17:31:25
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
If it is the Blood of the Dragon, mighten the People of the Dragon bleed too?<br /><br />I mean, if you lead a country, than the constituents are your people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 18:10:25
subject: <b>Ok</b>
body:
Maybe not Galad then (it was never very likely anyway was it, he's not a major enough character).<br /><br />However, Aiel still stands because of what Ras just said, they are the People of the Dragon, therefore the blood of the Dragon could refer to them. Plus you didn't counter my Elayne's babes theory, surely that still stands. And the fact that it doesn't say he'll actually die, Rand has just kinda assumed it means that along with everyone else.


created: 2001-10-25 18:27:50
subject: <b>A little sumthin.</b>
body:
One thing that has always bothered me is that people always assume that Rand is going to die.  Spilling your blood does not mean dying.  I cut myself once, and my blood &quot;spilled&quot; out of my hand.  As for the dawn twice thing, remember when Rand cleansed the taint, there was this big black sumthing or other?  Couldn't sumthing similar to that happen?  Yeah, Rand's gonna live, and the world will be saved.  Go Rand!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 18:31:25
subject: <b>Ok...</b>
body:
Granted, Rand assumes that he will die, and the prophecy does not specifically say that he will die. <br /><br />BUT!!! But, Min sen him dead on a funeral byer in a vision. Min is never wrong. <br /><br />Min has also seen three women standing around him at that point, and those three are obviously herself, Aviendha and Elayne  the snot nosed brat. There can be no arguing that. <br /><br />Now, since Rand is in effect an AS, he will live longer than a normal person, like, oh i don't know... MIN. <br /><br />So if Min can stand around his dead body, he must die before he can outlive her, dig? And what better place to die than at TG? <br />Don't get me wrong, i am an avid supporter of Nyn raising him after 3 days, but the fact remains that he will die. <br /><br />That's bulletproof, so y'all can't argue with Min, and if you do, i'll get Roberta to draw a picture of Her kicking your arses <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now if Rand will die, why would we need the other's blood to be spilled? They may die, true. There is no arguing that. But if it is Galad's blood that is to be spilled in saving the world, then why is he not the Dragon? Or why would Rand's children have to die for them all to be saved? <br /><br />If Rand's son, for example, dies at TG and saves the world, wouldnt he be the Dragon? The prophecy's say that it is the DRAGON that will save the world, not the blood of his blood. <br /><br />If it is, I for one will be super-peed off at RJ for giving me a cheap ending.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 19:11:00
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
It's still not definite I'm afraid. Min did indeed see him on a funeral byer with 3 women (like you said, obviously them) standing over him. However, there have been dreams that indicate Rand will fake his death for some reason and I really do believe that will happen, obviously because of the bond these 3 have to know about it and will have to be seen to be mourning him.<br /><br />I'm not saying Rand won't die, but it's still no more likely than him surviving


created: 2001-10-25 20:10:10
subject: <b>There is another Dragon, after all</b>
body:
I've read posts pretty much assuming Moridin was the stranger who joined with Rand against Sammael in Shadar Logoth, but I always assumed it was Lews Therin.<br /><br />Lews Therin IS alive, in some manner. Remember, Mat only has memories in his head, while Rand has actual interaction with a vivid force of some sort. <br /><br />While Lews Therin may not be corporeal (yet), we do know that there is precedent for others to return. Birgitte was ripped from TAR, and the Heroes of the Horn also return, and are cognizant and capable of interacting with 'living' people. <br /><br />Furthermore, The Dark One is capable of bringing others back from the dead, so why not some other force (representative of the Creator)?<br /><br />Lews Therin's 'madness' seems based on not fully comprehending his circumstances -- what ever they are. I can't remember which book, but when Rand shouts at him once, he's shocked, and whisper's back 'Are you real?'  This could well be the font of the 'madness' of the false Dragons...they were POTENTIAL Dragon Reborns, but couldn't come to grips with what would be madness in others. <br /><br />So we know Lews Therin has a soul and a presence...all he needs is a body. And maybe Shadar Logoth -- a place that hardly follows normal rules -- was a place in which he could manifest. It's quite possible that he was aware of the True Power or One Power, given his capability, and that's why Rand wouldn't recognize him.<br /><br />And, finally, at Shayul Ghul, it could be he who dies, with his blood on the rocks, and after all, that would fulfil the prophecy. &quot;The Blood of the Dragon&quot;<br /><br />Rand is NOT the Dragon -- he is the Dragon Reborn. Lews Therin is still around, in whatever form, and he IS the Dragon.


created: 2001-10-25 20:35:59
subject: <b>For the last time!</b>
body:
Rand and Lews Therin are the same soul! There are not two souls within one body, they are two personalities within one soul! Rand and LTT cannot be seperated. I really wish I had a link to the great theory on why Rand has LTT in his head, it's brilliant, I'll try to explain it simply here.<br /><br />When a soul is reborn, all their past personalities and memories are hidden away, which is useful as it'd just mess you up if not. However, men who channel are different. You see, the taint breaks down the barrier between the current soul (Rand) and the last LTT (amongst other things). Because of this male channelers suddenly have another man's memories and personality in their head. Now, their minds can't handle this, so what happens is the man seperates himself from this new presence by subconciously giving it a voice. That's why all of those channelers who go mad hear voices. The difference with Rand is that he actually knows who his last soul was so he has named him. This also explains LTT's comments about &quot;the third one&quot; (that might not be an exact quote. That has come from LTT memories of when he went mad and put a voice to his past soul. When LTT tells Rand how to do things, it is really just Rand accessing the memories of the past soul. If he could get to a stage when he realised all of the above, it should help him eliminate the voice and draw freely on LTT's memories, although I don't think that will ever happen.<br /><br />So, as you can see LTT doesn't exist seperately from Rand, they are one, it's just that the human mind can't handle that.<br /><br />As for why Mat hasn't had voices in his head, gaps in his memory have been filled with others memories, but not their personalities. In fact, he can't tell what are his real memories or not anymore as they have been given to him in a way that does not seperate themselves from his other memories.<br /><br />Also, as for souls being pulled out of TAR, LTT isn't currently there, he's been reborn.


created: 2001-10-25 21:12:06
subject: <b>No 2 Personalities</b>
body:
Then I assume you're not of the &quot;Olver-is-Gaidal-Cain&quot; group, since that'd blow a whole in your argument (which is fine), since Olver was obviously a person when Gaidal Cain was in TAR and answered the call of the Horn. <br /><br />Has anyone considered that the Last Battle may actually take place in TAR?  At least the crucial elements of it? Let's face it...most of the major players on either side will have access. <br /><br />That could also fill some cracks.


created: 2001-10-26 00:53:09
subject: <b>Just a question..</b>
body:
Has anything Cadsuane's said ever been proved right? Because the entire theory Three in a Boat summarized relies heavily on what Cadsuane said about male channelers-- something no one else has ever mentioned. Granted, it may be something no one else knows, but then, it may just be Cadsuane making stuff up. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> As far as I know (and I haven't read the series in awhile, so it's very possible) we haven't seen any other channelers hearing voices except *possibly* Dashiva, who is always talking to himself-- but Dashiva is Aginor, and is in a position kind of like Rand's, if you think about it (AoL guy stuck in new body), except that Dashiva remembers only the AoL stuff, and Rand/LTT remembers pretty much only modern stuff.  So is Cadsuane's information necessarily to be trusted?  The only reason I think it should be is that I don't think Rand believes her, and Rand is *always* wrong. But otherwise, it's a pretty important point, and if she's wrong we're ignoring many possibilities...<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-10-26 06:18:22
subject: <b>NOOOOO</b>
body:
I will be so very disapointed if RJ drags the whole Rand-Christ-thing all the way, I cannot tell you how disappointed I will be.<br />What you say that Ghalad and the Aiel are not of Rand's blood is partially true, but I heard this neat idea that Elaynes babies will be born on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and that would work.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 08:32:08
subject: <b>Answers</b>
body:
You are correct in assuming I am not of the Olver is Gaidal Cain theory...unless of course TAR messes up time to a greater degree than we ever suspected (and I doubt it).<br /><br />Cadsuane doesn't have to be proven right, she has to be proven wrong about something. Until we find some proof that she has knowingly lied about something surely we must assume she is still sworn to the 3 oaths (why wouldn't she be?) and cannot lie.


created: 2001-10-26 11:50:35
subject: <b>*Sigh*</b>
body:
I hate to be going on about this, but even if Rand and Elayne's babies were born on the slopes of SG, which by the way has NOT BEEN FORESHADOWED IN ANY WAY, which is Not RJ's style, they would not bleed unless they came out with no heads, or something. When a baby is born, it does not bleed; the mother does. Duh. So that discounts that theory. Besides, wouldnt you be peed off if the world was saved by some infant that you had never heard of until the last 20 pages? If that is the way that the series ends, i may boycott RJ's next series for the simple fact of that ending being a HUGE ripoff. Why would Rand have to do anything if that was the case? The Dragon will save the world, not his children.<br />As to Three in a Boat, i have a question. If this voices thing were true, then why would the line be drawn at the last life. I mean look at Mat. He has thousands of lives in his head, not just one. Why would a channeler's mind only be infected with the last life's memories? I agree with you about Rand and LTT being one soul though, but i dont think that it is LTT's soul. It is the soul for Dragons through the ages. After all, LTT wasnt the first Dragon, and Rand isnt the last; we all know that. It does intrigue me, though, the theory that states that Moridin my  be a Dragon that knelt to the DO in one of those alternate worlds. Whoever came up with that deserves a high five, so.*high five*. Any comments?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 13:06:15
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
There are quite a few possible explanations for why it seems that only LTT is in Rand's head and not the previous Dragons too:<br /><br />1. The taint may in fact only break down the barrier between the current (Rand) and the last (LTT).<br /><br />2. The taint may break down the barriers between every single Dragon ever to have lived, but the further back you go, the fainter the memories and personalitites are, so even if they creep in every so often. Rand's head will immediately attribute it to LTT.<br /><br />3. The taint may not have had time to break down barriers previous to LTT yet. This doesn't really hold yet as the barrier between LTT and the Dragon before him shoudl already be broken. However, as I've said, Rand may well just mix the two together as one without realising it. As LTT's memories and personality would be dominant over the other Dragon's, even if every so often some sort of memory of how to channel a certain way seeped through from the previous Dragon, Rand would assume it came from LTT.<br /><br />As for Mat, he hasn't been given memories from his past lives, he's not had any barriers broken down, he's simply been given other men's memories.<br /><br />Rand's soul is LTTs. You can't seperate them. There is no way that Moridin is a Dragon from the past who actually bent knee to the Dark One. Not unless it happened and the Creator stepped in and created a new Dragon. I really don't see that as very likely. If any Dragon ever bent knee to the Dark One (without later betraying him), I can't see how the world wouldn't perish. If the &quot;Chosen One&quot; (as the Creator names him) goes over to the dark, who will save the world? No one, which would mean the DO breaking free, destroying the wheel and having one endless age in his image. Besides, Moridin/Ishamael himself has said that he and the Dragon have fought from the beginning of time, he'd hardly say that if he'd been a Dragon.<br /><br />There has actually been foreshadowing of some degree as to the fact that Elayne's babes will be born at TG. As we have only known for one book that she's pregnant, it would have been quite hard before now for it to be foreshadowed anyway, but RJ managed it. I don't have a quote on me (or even exact names, I always forget them, sorry), but when the Heroes of the Horn are called, Rand identifies some of them and tow of them are the twins whose birth marks the end/start of an Age. Now we know how RJ likes to give us info that seems nothing and then it turns out big, I (and many others) believe he has done it here. Putting it together with the facts that Elayne is going to have twins and 9 months seems like a very good guess for the amount of time to TG, many believe that these twins will be born and herald the end/start of an Age. As Elayne (being so stubborn and powerful) is likely to be in the thick of things at TG no matter how pregnant she is, it's possible they will be born on the slopes of SG. However, that's just a guess, we only present it as an alternative to Rand himself bleeding.


created: 2001-10-26 14:27:12
subject: <b>Don't get nme wrong.......</b>
body:
I am also a believer that Elayne's children will herad the end of an age (Shivian and Chivian?????Something like that anyway), But i certianly don't think that the infants will have anything to do with saving the world, and we must agree that these children's blood will not be spilt, Elayne will bleed. Like i said; it is Rand who will save the world, not his children, though their births may signal the end of an age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 15:27:19
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
You're right that we should qualify our positions here. I'm not actually arguing that Rand won't die or that it will be Elayne's children who will bleed (there is the chance that they are bleeding when born or soon after somehow), I'm just giving possibilites so we can't say that something definitely will happen. Personally I do indeed think it will be Rand's own blood and I'm still unsure yet as to whether he will die or not (if he does I'm pretty certain he will &quot;rise again&quot; in some way, even if only for a brief time).


created: 2001-10-26 16:51:34
subject: <b>Everybody's right!!</b>
body:
Lot's of good discussion on this post; although I am inclined to disagree with most of it.  <br /><br />What is missing from the discussion of course is reference to the fact established many places that Rand will die and live again.  (Both of the 3 in a boat prophecies and the Finn's responce to Rands question how is he to survive TG proove that.)  The fact that Rand may die twice may make everybody right.<br /><br />I personally don't believe Aiel or other proxy for Rand shedding their blood.  Not because it is not possible with the wording.  It just doesn't seem important or interesting enought for the prophesy to care about.  There are too many more interesting and likely ways for the prophesy to occur.  Why choose the most boring.  (Same thing with the eclipse hypothesis)<br /><br />I will say it here, only because no one else is, this whole theory hinges on having 2 dawns on one day.  The second dawn is of course a poetic dawn and not an actual dawn.  What if you accept instead that twice dawns the day means poetically twice dawns <i>a</i> day;  In other words Rand spills his blood on two separate days.  If you accept this theory, then alot of other things fall into place.  <br /><br />With this assumption everyone may be right.  Rand may die with the first spilling and be brought back to die again at the second.  Or he may live through the second because he has died with the first as the Finn's seem to suggest.  Or he may have a proxy (Galad or Aiel or Children, etc..) spill blood on the first then die on the second.<br /><br />Moving on to the LTT thing.  Why do people think of LTT as a separate entity to Rand.  Rand is LTT is the dragon is Rand/LTT/Dragon.  If Rand is talking to LTT he is talking to himself.  (Nothing wrong with that.)  When he starts thinking that he, himself, is someone else that is insanity.<br /><br />What about the fact that Rand knows thing from LTTs life and abilities.  This happened before the taint and way before he talked about LTT.  Rand had a fair amount of LTTs abilities and knowledge <i>long</i> before he heard LTTs voice.  (Incidentally he didn't hear LTTs voice until after he struggled with Asmodean and gobbled up huge quantities of taint.  Or maybe he didn't gobble up huge quantities of taint, but was using the power more since Asmodean was teaching him.)  Rand learned how to use the flute and the sword very quickly.  Both of these are talents that LTT had and both of which Rand learned before he heard LTT.<br /><br />Combine this knowledge with Birgitte's former lives and with Mat's, Perrin's and Rand's (and Nynaeve's) ability to learn certain things <i>way</i> too quickly (weapon's in particular.)  Add in the fact that Mat had knowledge and memories from his past way before the Finn's gave him other peoples memories (probably stolem from people who have visited the Finn's before which explains why Mat's memories are only from certain times.)  Throw in the fact the the heros of the horn wait in between lives and are somehow aware of all their latest incarnations between lives and suddenly everything comes into focus like a crytopgram where you accidentally pick the right letters.<br /><br />Mat, Perrin, Rand, and possibly Nynaeve are heros of the horns whose ability to learn certain skills quicker comes from the thinner barrier between lives that the heros have. (This thin barrier allows them to learn their skills quickly enough to serve their purpose with the wheel.)  Rand and Matt had their barriers stretched especially thin with taint on Saidin and of Shadar Logoth respectively.  In addition being present when the horn of valere was sounded may have thinned it as well.  Both Rand and Mat were then especially vulnerable to having memories and abilitites (such as speaking the OT-which happened before the foxes).<br /><br />So why then if Rand's and Mat's memory leaks are the same that Rand talks to his former self and Mat doesn't.  Duh, the taint and the pattern as well I suppose (Rand doesn't talk in the OT for example).  That is why Rand has memory leaks in tGH (flute and sword) but doesn't talk to LTT until after he has gobbled up huge quantities of taint in tFoH.<br /><br />Just to throw in a monkey wrench with the debate about birthing blood being the mothers.  There is a small amount of cord blood isn't there <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .  (Somehow this doesn't fit in with WoT, though.)<br /><br />My two cents.  Keep up the good work people.<br /><br />Sorry for the length.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 19:15:47
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
I didn't mean that Cadsuane was lying to Rand; I meant that she believed what she was saying, but was wrong.  Many people who go crazy hear voices.  Many men who can channel go crazy from the taint. That doesn't mean that the taint causes people to hear voices-- it's logically inconsistent.  That's all that I meant to say, sorry for that not being clear.<br /><br />I still agree more with RabidWombat, though, that LTT isn't evidence of insanity... although I'm not sure if I agree that Rand talking to LTT is talking to himself, at least not in a literal sense.  In the figurative sense, maybe... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> LTT's a bit like having that flash of brilliance that means you can finally solve a math problem, maybe?<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-10-27 07:49:05
subject: <b>Just one thing</b>
body:
Rabid, we know that Rand is a hero of the horn, but I think it's highly unlikely that Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve (especially Nynaeve) are. <br /><br />So Nynaeve is good at healing and could do it before she was taught, so what? We know this sort of thing happens all the time with wilders, but it's not like Nynaeve is excellent at healing, only better than most. She certainly isn't a hero (although who knows, she might be after her next death).<br /><br />My main reasons for Mat and Perrin not being heroes is that they've come face to face with the heroes and they didn't seem to recognise them (the heroes didn't seem to recognise the 2 guys), yet they recognised Rand/LTT at a glance. Also, Birgitte has been around Mat a lot and she recognises him as the horn sounder, but nothing else. If she did in fact know he was a hero and was just keepoing it from him, I find it unlikely that she would be so amazed that he can speak the OT so fluently. As for how they learn things so quickly...well, they're ta'veren, the pattern moves so they do learn quick.<br /><br />Otherwise, good post.


created: 2001-10-27 11:42:02
subject: <b>Uhhh...</b>
body:
Is it me, or does it seem that everyone's taking this thing a little bit too seriously...?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 10:51:10
subject: <b>Revelation Connection</b>
body:
This has been a fascinating discussion, and no, I don't think that anybody is taking anything too seriously, just having fun with quite a complex intellectual exercise. Anyway, I&#8217;ve had opportunity to look into Revelation a bit lately, and I think that it looks like RJ is drawing a lot more of his TG parallels from Ragnarok than Revelation. <br /><br />The whole point of Revelation is to give the inhabitants of Earth one last chance to turn to God in the face of overwhelming distress and overwhelming evidence that all that God has said over the ages is true (this holds whether you believe that the faithful will be ruptured out before the Tribulation or not). At any rate, things get worse and worse as the Antichrist&#8217;s persecutions get worse, and the judgments that the angels are pouring out get worse and worse.<br /><br />Finally, at the end, Jesus does not come back and die. The Antichrist and all his forces gather on the plain of Megiddo for a final battle. However, Jesus does not &#8220;play fair&#8221;. He simply sweeps in and with a single word ends the entire battle and banishes all the baddies to hell (essentially &#8211; there&#8217;s more detail to it than this.) While I have no problem with God ending this age in this world this way, it doesn&#8217;t really make for good fiction.<br /><br />Sorry if I've opened up a whole new can of worms.<br /><br />Rob the Poser<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 12:33:31
subject: <b>I think..</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, I think RJ said in one of his interviews that he didn't draw exclusively from any one source, religious or otherwise, and based none of his characters on mythological characters, despite coincidental resemblences.<br /><br />Nice theory though, and some excellent points have been raised in the posts above.  Several things that had never even crossed my mind..  <br /><br />Heh, sorry if that sounds condescending, because I don't mean it to.


created: 2002-07-26 14:37:44
subject: <b>This has nothing to do with your actual theory</b>
body:
just thought I'd point out that Jesus won't return to die again. nowhere in the bible does it say anything like that. when he comes as a lamb, he has <i>already</i> been slaughtered.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Niella <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Top of Cool<br />No Animosity<br />Invisible Poster<br />March 2005 Kalin's Official Strangely Odd but Cool Person of the Month<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 05:05:20
subject: <b>Rand is NOT jesus.</b>
body:
It really pisses me off that people keep calling rand jesus. Just becasue Rand is chosen to fight evil doesnt mean he's jesus. Frodo in lotr wasnt jesus. There is no jesus any way. So relegious freaks pls keep it to yourself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 07:13:22
subject: <b>Rand hearing LTT</b>
body:
In response to what Rabid Wombat said above, there is another explanation for why Rand is hearing the voice of LTT.  I intend to write a theory about it later, but here is what I think.  <br /><br />Granted, the Asmodean battle happens before LTT starts talking to Rand.  But what happens right before that?  Rand's walk through the crystal columns of Rhuidean!  This was where Rand was given visions of important events through the eyes of his ancestors.  I think that somehow, when Rand walked through the columns, that was what brought the voice and personality of LTT to the forefront.  <br /><br />I know there is evidence that the voice is caused by the taint, both the Asmodean battle and Cadsuane's opinion, but short of something more concrete I will continue to believe this way.  Hope someone sees this and replies, even if just to prove me wrong!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 18:57:34
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
Hey, maybe it means that <br /><br />1) Yes, Rand is going to spill his blood on the rocks of Shayol Gul. That is quite obvious throught prophies!<br /><br />and...<br /><br />2) Rand won't be the one who dies. I mean he is LTT reborn, right? But now you have two major heroes from one &quot;person&quot; so to speak, so maybe LTT will finally be put to rest (He will die) and be released from the wheel to make room for Rand, and Rand will then become the one tied to the wheel through greatness. <br /><br />Everyone understand?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Rob's wife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think geeks are sexy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> So I went and got my own! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Te quiero mi hermano!<br /><br /><font color="#0099CC">Caboose: Tell him about how his dad got to third base with you!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 08:08:01
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
I believe that RJ has said he has known from the beginning what will happen in the last scene of the book...I have serious doubts over the last scene being TG. I mean, how annoyed would we all be if there was the battle, the DO was defeated and then...that's it. The end. I don't think so, we'll see the aftermath.<br /><br />We might already have seen the great flood, the Chosen have often spoken of how the lands and seas have changed since the breaking, many lands are now below water.


created: 2001-10-27 18:37:13
subject: <b>Not too important to me</b>
body:
What happens during, but rather after. Like someone said awhile back if Rand pulls a messianic resurrection how irritating would it be to see him get revived and every other dead soldier is just swept under the rug?<br /><br />   However it's cool to se a theory that is essentially asking for theories rather than just being one. So I'll give my answer. I don't think the last battle will come down to JUST the one power. Don't get me wrong I think we'll see enough channeling to make any cable company proud.<br /><br />   However I think the comments that Cadsuane has made about Rand needing to be human and needing to have a heart or his victory won't be much better than the Dark Ones a good clue.<br /><br />   I think it will come down the the strenght of Rands will and his resolve. He'll have to move past his agression and hatred and focus on what about the world is worth saving. He'll also have to face a temptation or two. Like bringin back his mom in the first book.<br /><br />   I also have a feeling that Rand will before the series end have a brief time where he's tempted to give up the fight and just run away from it all. He'll be tempted with perhaps a normal life where he and Min and Elayne and Aviendha can live happily.<br /><br />   That's one of those really big things in savior stories. At some point before the final battle or action, there's always something to remind them what they can't have, or could they. If you've ever read Preacher think of the Salvation story line and you'll see what I mean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 04:59:48
subject: <b>Aiel DESTROYED</b>
body:
One thing I do believe will occur during the Last Battle is the utter destruction of the Aiel bar the ones who threw down their spears to follow thier ancestors way of life.


created: 2002-01-03 10:01:21
subject: <b>i believe</b>
body:
jordan has spent too much time concentrating on the fact that the aes sedai cannot heal dath, so Rand will probably die, and then nyneave, like she did with logain, will try to revive him, only to find something yet again that thousands of aes sedai had missed for thousands of years and revive him. just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 23:00:21
subject: <b>Wolves, Trollocs, and Fain, oh my!</b>
body:
Perrin leads every wolf on the planet to TG.<br />That was foreseen in such a way that it can't be doubted.<br /><br />Trollocs are a given.<br /><br />And Fain will probably be there too, seeing as how he's encountered Rand so many times without dying (unlike Forsaken) that he couldn't be killed earlier.<br /><br />Oh, and Loial won't be there, because that would mean he'd have to reappear in the series.<br />


created: 2002-12-15 01:14:14
subject: <b>think wheel people: it's got to end with at least overtones of how it began</b>
body:
That is, if you want to know the end, you've got to look at the beginning.  Jordan wrote that beginning knowing full well where it would lead, and I very much think that his philosophy of circularity should play into how he tells the story.  So even if the end doesn't directly mirror the beginning, I think the chances are very high that it will somehow echo and speak to it in some way.  How we can't say... but at least that could help narrow our speculation.


created: 2001-10-26 20:41:51
subject: <b>about seeing the weaves</b>
body:
you don't have to see the weaves to be able to channel. For example in book 4 in the Stone of Tear, Rand pins Lanfear against the wall with Air, and she of course can't see the weaves of saidin, but she can still snap them, because she knows what and where they are.<br /><br />For a list of all the prophecies in WoT, see<br />http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/4_prophecy/


created: 2001-10-26 23:27:19
subject: <b>No. . .</b>
body:
Mat will have to &quot;give half the light of the world to save the world.&quot; But if I remember correctly, and I pobably don't, I think it says he must give up half the light of his world to save the world. This corresponds to his putting ones of his eyes on a set of balance scales. This is something he will have to do for himself, not Rand.<br />Good thinking though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 08:20:19
subject: <b>I liked it</b>
body:
&quot;I think it says he must give up half the light of his world to save the world&quot;<br /><br />I don't see how this makes a difference to the theory. Mat would be giving up half the light of his world by giving up his eye so that Rand can see.<br /><br />I liked this theory in that it seems original, although I don't necessarily believe it's true.<br /><br />To tell you the truth, I think you do have to be able to see to weave. It's not really the same situation as knowing where a weave is and cutting it, even if you can't see it. For example, at Dumai's Wells, when Rand breaks the shield he says the only thing he could see was the inside of the bok so all he could do was break free of it using air. I'm sure you can channel with your eye's closed, but actually weaving the flows...I dunno.


created: 2001-10-27 18:26:30
subject: <b>Writing left handed.</b>
body:
If Rand goes blind (Tam warned him about that 'hobby' of his) Then he would be able to eventually relearn channeling, but it'd be hard process. Like Helen Keller learning to comunicate he'd have to find a new way to experience things on his own.<br /><br />   I think that half the light of the world could be Mat giving his eye for Rands sight. Or allowing a link to his eyes so Rand can see. It might also mean the moon, or that is to say the duaghter of the nine moons. It's definitely one of those things that we won't know until it happens. Kind of like no one could have guessed how Mat would have to weigh two Aes Sedai on a scale until it happened in Book 9.<br /><br />   By the way cool theory dude. Thanks for giving us something about light that wasn't another tired theory on the twice dawning thing. Not that I dislike any of the theories mind you. We've just been getting too many of them.<br /><br />   Oh and welcome to our twisted neighbor hood. Hope you enjoy it here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 19:40:25
subject: <b>seeing weaves?</b>
body:
why is it that people think that if you're blind you can't channel?  this never occured to me.  in the shadow rising i think, towards the beginning when Rand is having a little mini-confrontation with Lanfear before the trollocs invade, she comments on how she doesn't need to see his weaves to know where they are.  This is how she is able to 'cut' his them.  While this doesn't necessarily relate to seeing her own weaves, i beleive it is much the same.  Also, in a later book (not sure which right now), while Egqene is training with the Wise Ones in Cairhien and the Tower Aes Sedai have sent their envoy to Rand, Egwene uses Moiraine's trick of the eavesdropping stone.  While somewhat vaguely described, the reader sees various scenes that take place within the house/inn/manor/whatever that the tower sisters are staying at.  Egwene is weaving her weaves inside their residence and spying on them.  Can she be sitting out in some back alley a street away and weaving crazy stone-eavesdropping weaves inside a huge manor house and watch them?  That's doubtful.<br /><br />just thought i'd add.  good theory though.


created: 2001-10-27 22:34:49
subject: <b>But you must be able to see to weave, not to cut weaves</b>
body:
One of the Salidar Aes Sedai who once had a block (Theodrin) stated that she could not weave if she could not see. That was her block; she could only channel when she had her eyes closed.<br /><br />I liked this theory. It is (to me) perhaps the second best theory regarding this that I have read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 12:18:41
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
Just a thought...<br />Min said that Rand almost certainly would lose without a woman who was dead and gone, right?<br />To save the world, Moiraine does have to be found.<br />I dont believe in this myself but I just had to say it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-28 16:21:05
subject: <b>Ermm</b>
body:
Yes, that's true but....what exactly does that have to do with this theory or the previous blackboard comments?


created: 2001-10-28 22:12:58
subject: <b>Well.....</b>
body:
Perhaps he meant that Moiraine might be the one to figure out how Rand can see again if he goes blind. By the way again, yes you probably could learn to channel weaves if you were blind, but it'd still require relearning channeling in a new way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 17:51:28
subject: <b>johan is an incompetent fool</b>
body:
Egwene wasn't looking inside the house, she was listening to conversations in it by picking up the vibrations at the windows. If any of you have ever read anything on SpyTech, you will know what I am talking about. Today, you can listen to conversationsm or any kind of sound wave by using a laser-based device. You point it at a window, and the device plays back the resulting vibrations in the beam as sound. The One-Power way of doing it is akin to using two cans with a string connecting them. The channeler moves their 'string' around wherever they want to hear, using some abject as a focus, though I doubt they really have to use an object. They could just as easily use the air in their ear.


created: 2001-10-31 15:32:50
subject: <b>peeping Egwene</b>
body:
Egwene listens into the manor house from an alley across the way.  She had to peer around the corner to do so.  That's why she stopped doing it.  She was afraid she'd be seen.  Moraine said that you had to see the weaves to weave them, though I can see how that would be a limitation she merely believed in.  But there are many who seem to.  That could trap Rand into believing it also.  The Forsaken may know other ways, and there is the occasional descrepency, but Rand would have to believe he could channel blind in order to do so, and that's contrary to the info he's gotten so far.


created: 2001-11-04 13:09:29
subject: <b>345</b>
body:
I believe that anything is possible with the one power. I don't think it would matter if Rand lost both his eyes. He could use the One Power to see with. If you can use the One Power to hear things that are far away, you can use it to see with, just in a very different way.  You would have to bypass the eyes, but tying weaves directly to the brain. Let me explain.  On the outside is some kind of photoresponsive weave (Rand (or someone else) could even weave it all around his head so that he could see 360 degrees!) from that photorestive weave are neural connector weaves that transfer the signal to the brain. If you think that that is too complicated for them, think again! Think how complicated it would sound if we explained the complex healing Nynaeve uses or weaving a GATEWAY!  That, is incredibly scientific! They would just have to get the idea for Rand to be able to use it, which isn't likely.


created: 2001-11-08 04:36:47
subject: <b>Since it wasn't mentioned</b>
body:
This will neither prove or disprove the theory, but I thought that I would mention it to get people thinking. There are two major things that limit what a person can do with the OP. One, obviously is their strength. The other is their training. I remember someone saying that they could tell who trained a particular AS just by the way they wove their weaves. If they were taught that there needed to be a throwing motion to throw a fireball, then they needed to make a throwing motion. There is a quote in POD refering to having to see the weaves. This is during the ill-fated attack on the BT by the AS. This quote is from Toveine's spoken words and her own thoughts. {&quot;At my command,&quot; she said quietly, &quot;we will break in every direction. As soon as you are far enough away that the man loses the shield,&quot; men always thought that they had to be able to see to hold their weaves, which meant that they did have to. &quot;turn back and help the Guards.&quot;} {POD Ch. 26 The Extra Bit}. Although this doesn't directly answer the question do you need to see to be able to make the weaves, it does say that you can maintain a current weave with out seeing it. It would seem to raise the question, could a blind person be taught to weave the OP.


created: 2002-05-03 08:59:26
subject: <b>title? what title?</b>
body:
The closing comment of this theory by the moderator, not the proposer was actually kind of interesting. It was asked whether  he was proposing that Mat would discover gunpowder, in a semi-humorous way. Well, in a way, Mat has discovered gunpwder already, but he doesn't know yet that he has. Two things make me say this; 1) his use of the satchel of fireworks at the Stone, an early form of bunker-busting, and still quite effective for ground forces today, and 2) His meeting with Aludra in Ebou Dar where she challenges him to reason out why she needs to find a bellfounder. Why would she need that? To get him to cast cannon barrels naturally. Early cannons were nearly always made of bronze, and later reinforced brass. It wasn't until the mid to late 19th century that they began making them of steel.<br />As for giving up half the light of the world? I guess we will need to wait for RJ to enlighten us!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 19:13:14
subject: <b>Not lose an eye</b>
body:
This is my first time reading these theories so I haven't had any influence from them before reading all the books.<br /><br />So the first time I read giving up half the light of the world to save the world I assumed it meant living on the Seanchan island married to Tuon which is on the other side of the world and therefor never being able to return home and never seeing the sunlight from his homeland again.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />


created: 2003-01-17 12:22:53
subject: <b>To point something out</b>
body:
I really like this theory, and I have one thing to point out to most of the blackboard comments so far.  That is all of the counter examples given to being able to channel without seeing focus on the reciever of the weave. IE you weave something and can't see where it is effecting (in someones mind for Compulsion, eavsdropping etc) however none of them address the fact that even if you can't see where it ends you certainly seem to have to see exactly where it is and what you are weaving before 'sending' it where you want.  <br /><br />Also on a side note...I REALLY don't think that the half the light of the world prophecy relates to Mat losing an eye at all because while it seems to fit the first part, i have heard nothing that even comes close to explaining how Mat losing an eye will save THE WORLD...which is a very important aspect to the prophecy.<br /><br />anyway that's my 2 cents for now


created: 2003-04-05 15:07:26
subject: <b>Give up Half the Light... Seanchan?</b>
body:
I think it has something to do with Mat helping Tuon and the Seanchan take most of the Westlands.<br /><br />Since the Seanchan have conquered Tarabon, Altara and Amadicia, many of the Eastern countries are worried of invasion, and fear the Seanchan conquerors.<br /><br />In actuality, the lands conquered under the Seanchan are prospering, and the Seanchan prove to be worthy rulers.  They quelled many of the civil wars and much of the unrest in Tarabon (though not all) and have begun to rebuild and restablish these countries.  <br /><br />What the world percieves as giving up its 'light' may be just what the Westlands need to defeat the DO, a full unification under the Seanchan.<br /><br />Perhaps this 'light' is the White Tower and Aes Sedai.<br />If i am correct, I believe Ishamael was the one that convinced Artur Hawkwing to refuse Aes Sedai help, seige Tar Valon, and send Luthair Paendrag across the Aryth Ocean in order to cause turmoil later.<br /><br />I believe that Ishamael also had a hand in helping to create the first a'dam , and the whole damane/suldam scheme in Seanchan.  If the Aes Sedai gave up their liberties to be used as weapons(though they would need to swear new oaths most likely), perhaps they would be able to save the world, leaving the Ashaman as the other half of the light of the world.<br /><br />The only problem I see with this is RJ being able to continue to develop Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve and all the other important Aes Sedai characters. Maybe giving up the White Tower and letting the rebels stand as the other half of the world's light?<br /><br />As far as why Mat would have a hand in 'giving up half the light of the world', we know that he possesses a great deal of information about the Aes Sedai, despite his mistrust and hatred of them.  He also has the Foxhead medallion and General Skills, so perhaps he can assist the Seanchan military in some way.


created: 2003-05-07 14:22:54
subject: <b>my 2 cents worth...</b>
body:
Hmm, still not convinced Matt is going to lose an eye, But anyway....<br /><br />Focusing on 'losing half of the light of the world'. I assumed (maybe stupidly) that the light of the world would be the moon and the sun. Hmm, moon? As in daughter of the nine moons? I was wondering if Matt has to sacrifice Tuon to save the world. Becuase eventually they are going to love each other right? Anyway, probably completely wrong, but opinions please!


created: 2003-07-20 19:11:00
subject: <b>You won't believe it....</b>
body:
You won't believe this but this is practically the exact same theory I came up with without ever reading this particular board. I also have further evidence to back up Mat losing an eye. His fox head medallion only shows one eye, correct? Coincidence? I think not. I'm not definite on this, because there are other theories out there I like alot, I just wanted to say I think when two people come up with the same idea and have never met, or read anything of the other's, have a pretty good chance of being right. ^_^


created: 2007-01-18 18:45:53
subject: <b>not convinced</b>
body:
First of all, if you lose an eye, you only lose one fifth of your vision.  And second, most times you do have to see in order to weave.  Channellers are able to cut the weaves of the opposite source (saidan, saidar) because they know where the weave is, say if it is holding a person from moving.  In PoD when Toveine was sheided by the men she ordered the sisters to scatter in hopes of breaking eyesight with the men &quot;men always thought they had to be able to see to hold their weaves, which meant that they did have to.  it doesnt mean that you cant channel blind just that if you think u cant then u cant.<br /><br />To the Choedan Kal:  Theodrins block was that she could only channel when there was a man around that she either liked or disliked.


created: 2001-10-27 05:31:40
subject: <b>Remember end of LoC?</b>
body:
There (some) Aes Sedai bends knee to the forgotten sign (the ancient Aes Sedai symbol which Rand uses).<br />So, if that was the foundation of your theory, it does not hold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 08:32:44
subject: <b>ursidae...</b>
body:
...is right.<br /><br />Also, why would the White Tower be the main target? Why not the Black Tower at the same time? After all, I'm assuming there are going to be a fiar number of sha'man who escape the battle and flee to beome dreadlords, they're going to want to attack there and get revenge as soon as possible.<br /><br />The there are wards. If the White Tower is whole again (under Egwene I assume) by the time the trollocs come again, no doubt they will set up wards against gateways being opened there by either men or women (there will be areas where it is allowed, everywhere else will be warded). Seeing as some of the Asha'man are bondd to AS, they shouldn't have any problem figuring out how to word against male gateways. They can set it up just like Rhavin did, as soon as a gateway opens, the enemies are cut down.


created: 2001-10-27 19:45:04
subject: <b>egwene</b>
body:
where does egwene fit in here?  she wouldn't be taking orders from rand as to who to follow, and she surely wouldn't follow Logain.  I doubt, anyway.


created: 2001-10-27 20:45:21
subject: <b>Already happened</b>
body:
This happened at the end of LoC, when some AS swore fealty to Rand.<br />Abd, this doesn;t fit with Elaida's Foretelling, which says &quot;The White Towere will be whole again, whole and stronger than ever&quot; This sounds like the AS are going to get it together and become a force in the nations again, not get half-destroyed by a whole lot of Trollocs. They may agree to follow, or at least ally with, Rand, but they (read &quot;Egwene&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> will be a power to be reckoned with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 22:31:39
subject: <b>Blance man balance.....</b>
body:
The Gaurdians BALANCE the servants not DOMINATE. One of the major points of the whole series seems to have been that men and women need to work together to get things done. If the men folk take charge insted of the women then what's the bloody point?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 23:13:16
subject: <b>I Hope.......</b>
body:
I'd love it if all that happened. I really don't like arrogant women, namely Aes Sedai, <br /><br />p.s. I thin i saw somewhere in the series that logain saw rand on the palace wall and knew it was the Dragon reborn<br />could someone tell me where that is, either that or tell me I imagined it and all that.<br />lord_tiger_vii@hotmail.com<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Dagashei <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> lord_tiger_vii@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> dagashei@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Observer of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 07:07:53
subject: <b>It's...</b>
body:
in the Lord of Chaos just after Nynaeve heals Logain. I'm only doing this from memory so I don't have a chapter, but I'd think if you look at the chapter titles it should be pretty easy to find.


created: 2001-10-29 15:05:24
subject: <b>To Lord Tiger 7</b>
body:
Rand notices Logain in the Eye of the World; Weaving of the Web Chapter 39 Paperback edition page 592


created: 2001-10-29 21:17:06
subject: <b>The Unstained Tower</b>
body:
9 Aes Sedai swearing fealty does not suffice. The prophecy said the 'unstained Tower will bend knee to the forgotten sign'. The unstained Tower is the White Tower swearing fealty to Rand, not Verin &amp; Co.<br /><br />Rand will then tell Egwene to join up with the Black Tower and serve under (or with) Logain. That's the only way I see Logain becoming powerful. The idea of Rand faking his death and Logain taking over is ridicolous. Do you remember the start of ACOS when Rand was returning to Cairhein after Dumai Wells. A 1,000 spears a day were falling to the bleakness, because of rumours. If it became common knowledge that Rand was dead, you could kiss goodbye the Aiel.<br /><br />An interesting sideline would be Demandred attacking the Black Tower. At the start of a war 'blitzkreig' is applied and the enemys main strength is hit. If I was Demandred I would hit both Black &amp; White Towers at the same time. Perhaps Mat has to chose between defending one Tower or another with the HoV. Could this be 'giving up half the light of the world'.<br /><br />Then again taking his eye out with his own knife would be great reading.<br /><br />PS: Perhaps in the White Tower battle Egwene and Gawyn go down with the ship.  YYYEEESSS!!!!<br /><br /> <br />


created: 2001-10-30 09:24:44
subject: <b>The White Tower</b>
body:
I don't think an attack on the White Tower by dreadlords is a sane idea Demandred. Its full of Aes Sedai and warders and the Trollocs' main advantage (numbers) is rendered pretty useless when fighting in streets or in the corridors of the tower. Without a Black Ajah or Messana working from within to stab the Aes Sedai in the back the Shadow would be just commiting loud, messy suicide.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-31 12:45:33
subject: <b>Perhaps....</b>
body:
Is it possible that the whole &quot;bent knee&quot; thing doesn't necessarily mean to serve. Could it not maybe be that they are going to realize that they have to work with the Black Tower (as previously mentioned). I'm sure on any level that has got to be an extremely humbling experience to go through for an Aes Sedai. One I'd personally LOVE to see!!<br />I'm rather new to this whole in depth thing, I normally read at face value, for the enjoyment, so I don't really have anything to back this all up, I'll try for next time.<br />I must say however that I really did like the general idea, very good! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-29 14:43:54
subject: <b>Some already have</b>
body:
Some Aes Sedai on both sides have already bent knee to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 01:05:11
subject: <b>Dreadlords?</b>
body:
I may be wrong but I thought the Dreadlords were only in the War of Power. I didn't think there were enough male channelers, trained and alive atleast, to have 50 Dreadlords in The Trolloc Wars. Of course in The Last Battle they will be back, either from The Black Tower or their own recruiting, but this may be why they never took Tar Valon in TTW, they had no channelers in the first place. If I am way off base, and there are definately dreadlords in TTW I am sorry. I can't think of any mention of them then. However I have not yet read the source book (big white book I forget the name) which I think has more info on those wars.


created: 2003-07-14 10:42:37
subject: <b>There were Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars.</b>
body:
Myrelle told Egwene that the Green Ajah was the counter to the Dreadlords.  She was referring to the Trolloc Wars, and as there was no green ajah during the War of Power, she could not have been speaking about that time.  Further, in Moiraine's story about Manetheren, she tells of a Dreadlord led army attacking Manetheren.  There have not been any Dreadlords since then, because they've been working in secret in the Black Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 08:47:07
subject: <b>Firstly</b>
body:
RJ himself has said that this isn't our world. The reasons so many things like the connections to King Arthur etc are present is because he wanted to demonstrate in these books how over the course of time, what really happened can be twisted (incidentally, I really hope in that WOT Encyclopedia he says he wants to write after the series he outlines the basic happenings in each age...I'm sure he knows them, it's just whether he will let us know or not that's the problem).<br /><br />Secondly, the whole idea of the fact that things can get twisted over time is that even if we can say that Rand has many connections to Christ (which he does), it doesn't mean what we say happened to Christ will happen to Rand. For example (and if I'm using anyone else's theory here without mentioning them, sorry) I believe in the bible the devil is sometimes known as the Dragon (among other names). One of the very high angels who is eventually sent to earth to destroy the Dragon (I don't have the passage, so some details might be wrong) is called Michael. Now if you look at the actual pronunciation of M'Hael, it sounds a lot like Michael. So in the bible it's the Dragon who rebels and is defeated, but in the WOT books, it looks like it will be the reverse. This is just an example of how we can't be sure of what will happen to characters no matter how closely they resemble others.


created: 2001-10-27 13:26:24
subject: <b>Appear to die...</b>
body:
Will Rand die at T.G?  The prophesy says &quot;his blood on the rocks...&quot; not &quot;his bleeding corpse on the rocks.&quot;  But if you think about it, Rand has never expressed a desire to rule, to be the Dragon, or anything like such.  Maybe, just maybe, he will be wounded unto death, be healed by Ny. and just fade into obscurity as an historical figure. Thus, most will believe that he has died, and it will leave a clear path for the worlds proper rulers to rule.  He'll then spend the rest of his life roaming the world from one wife's doorstep to another (like a beggar) thus fulfilling the beggar vision. Maybe.


created: 2001-10-27 22:38:15
subject: <b>Either direction</b>
body:
I think one could say that some of the legends look like our age was in Rands past, and some of his days legends might be our future.<br /><br />   By the way his blood can be interpreted in many was. It says HIS blood. Not the blood of his veins or of his blood. The aiel are his blood kin, therefore he is their blood and they are his. Galad is his blood because the share the same mother. So nyah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 05:41:57
subject: <b>Small correction...</b>
body:
Firstly, there were 13 disciples, not twelve; Judas, who died after his betrayal, and Paul, who in a way replaced him.<br /><br />Secondly; there was a Dragon on the 2nd Age, a Dragon Reborn in the 3rd Age; to use your way of thinking, wouldn't Jesus have to be interpreted as the Dragon of his own time?<br /><br />Nah, I don't believe this theory. And btw, I would say the Age of Mosk and Merc and the other mythical stories in the World of the Wheel was actualyl the 1st Age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 19:12:31
subject: <b>Allusions...</b>
body:
I enjoyed reading Bad Ash's little theory.  I have often drew parallels to Christ, as well as other great literature and stories.  Nothing wrong with it.  It really can't be avoided...my English writing professor said, <br /><br />&quot;If you look at every movie, book, and story told, you really are reading the same six or seven stories.  The trick is to tell it in a new an interesting way.&quot;<br />Earl Braggs is a genius, by the way.<br /><br />And so is Robert Jordan.  I dont' know if he means to make all the allusions to our world, but I imagine some or most are on purpose.  As to using this to predict if Rand will die at the last battle or what-have-you, I don't know.  <br /><br />Personally, I don't think Rand dies at teh last battle.  I agree that everyone will think he's dead, b/c he will just kind of disappear.  Maybe he dies shortly afterwards.  This is just a RAFO as far as I'm concerned.  But interesting theory, Bad Ash.


created: 2002-01-19 12:44:53
subject: <b>I haven't decided yet...</b>
body:
I agree that it will end up being a RAFO situation as to whether Rand will die at the end of TG.  RJ has left it too open to interpretation.  I know that I HOPE Rand will live, as I'm sure most everyone else does; but at the same time you have to be realistic that not everyone is going to make it.  Some of the wrong people are going to die.  Some of the people we like best may end up being the ones who bite the dust.  Rand is in the greatest peril, obviously.  As for Rand taking off to become a beggar, where did Min ever say that he would do that AFTER the Last Battle?  Many times in the past Rand has taken off without warning to be alone and think.  Naturally this will be harder and harder for him to do, so going in disguise may be his only alternative very soon.  My point is, we all know what we HOPE will happen (Rand &amp; Co will all live long happy lives after TG) but just how realistic is that?  Personally, I would be disappointed in RJ for copping out with the fairy tale ending, regardless of how much I want my favorites to make it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 10:11:27
subject: <b>Dead and alive</b>
body:
Just a small matter some may have over looked.<br />Rand is already both dead and alive. LTT is dead but in the head of Rand who is alive.<br />Could it not be that it's LTT that finally dies for good and leaves Rand to carry on after TG.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-27 09:01:31
subject: <b>I disagree...</b>
body:
First, it never says the man in white will snub her, just that she will fall in love with him.<br /><br />Secondly, while it is constantly suggested Perrin is the man in white, I have seen little argument what would make &quot;a man in white&quot; a good description of Perrin. It simply isn't.<br /><br />Berelain might as you say have fallen in love with Perrin, but it's not the kind of strong passion suggested by Min's viewing. In fact, Berelain in love with Perrin does not fit Min's viewing one bit.<br /><br />Now, while Berelain searches out men for political reasons, I don't see why that would be much better than her being a lightskirt. Her interest in Perrin seems mostly (at least initially) to have more to do with her hating Faile than anything else. Berelain is in all ways a very unpleasant person, as far as I can see, and something miraculous will have to happen before I change my mind about that. I don't like to have people killed in the books at all, but I wouldn't mind it if Berelain at least got abducted until Tarmon Gaidon is over...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 09:13:05
subject: <b>One very large problem with the theory</b>
body:
Min never says that the man in white will snub her. I think it extremely likely she will get together with Galad. The quote is &quot;a man in white who will make her fall head over heals&quot; LoC, Thorns.


created: 2001-10-27 09:19:26
subject: <b>Why can't we edit blackboard posts?</b>
body:
You really don't like Berelain? She's one of the women in WoT that I do like. I don't want to turn this into another debate about why there are so many annoying women in the books, but I've heard people (well, SOME female readers) saying the reason men don't like them is because the women are so strong. That simply isn't true. There are many strong women who I like in the books, Nynaeve (well, recently), Min, Moiraine, Sorilea, Melaine, Berelain...it's not that they're strong that I don't like Aviendha, Egwene, Elayne etc, it's because they're so ungrateful and up themselves.


created: 2001-10-27 15:10:38
subject: <b>Agrees that you should be able to edit these comments...</b>
body:
You know something?<br /><br />It's been scientificly prooved that you interpret the characters in a book differently depending on your own personality.<br /><br />That means, that if you're mean and selfish, you tend to see the characters as mean and selfish too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Rie Bolmdahl</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Rie a'M'hama'cueran<br /><i>Caballien misain ye<br /><br />Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyari</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 17:28:14
subject: <b>The Women</b>
body:
I rather like Berelain too. I dunno why, really, but I always have.<br /><br />I also agree with the comment about how it's not true that men dislike the women because they're strong. I don't particularly like Aviendha or Elayne all that much, but not for those reasons. I also don't like Faile too much, maybe cause she uses her &quot;strength&quot; to control Perrin. However, I love the characters of Min, and while I didn't like Egwene at first, I do now, and she may be one of the more powerful women now that she's the Amyrlin Seat. And Moiraine is one of my favorite characters in the whole series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 20:52:31
subject: <b>I like Berelain...</b>
body:
But I don't like what she's doing. I think, essentially, she is a strong, capable woman who does what she has to to keep her country and people safe, and I admire her for that. She is also an able administrator and politician. But, she allowed herself to get caught up in this whole thing with Faile, and now she is stuck with it. She doesn't like Faile because of this, but she is doing it because she doesn't like Faile, a perfect paradox. In fact, she is much like Faile. Faile's thoughts, and their actions, indicate that both women could actually be good friends if they didn't have this in the way. It is my belief that Berelain will meet Galad, her man in white, have a terrible time being in love with him and having him either not notice or snub her. Faile will at first be pleased, then feel a bit sorry for Berelain and the two may actually learn to be in the same room together without trying to kill each other. Then Perrin will get some peace. IMHO, anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 02:43:57
subject: <b>A delightful surprise....</b>
body:
When I first saw the title I thought my humor theory about Berlain being a dark friend (which ahd been intended as a joke to snap against the Faile Dark Friend theory) had been posted and rebutted.<br /><br />   Secondly it's really nice to see a theory supporting Berlain being in love with Perrin that doesn't rip Faile to shreds. My biggest problem with the anti-Faile crowd is that they often seem to over look many of the same traits in other female characters.<br /><br />   My only real problem with Berlain is the fact that she's trying to wreck a marriage just because a girl got a bit defensive. I don't think we can say that Perrin had nothing in his favor politically when Berlain took notice to him. After all he is one of the childhood friends of The Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />   If Faile hadn't gotten so aggro Berlain probably would have taken a shot at Mat. Fate may have influenced Faile (long distance ta'verening because she's so close to Perrin) to get so worked up about the Wolf bro so as to eliminate a complication with the Gambler marrying the daughter of the nine moons.<br /><br />   I do think it'd be interesting to see Berlains feeling for Perrin prove true and for her to have to accept that any chance that might've been is lost because of her ogiers oath. There's the fact that RJ has stated clearly that Faile will live through the rest of the series to hamper it since that takes out the most plausible way for Perrin to be in white.<br /><br />   Hopper told Perrin in thw olf dream that Faile would be bring him many cubs. That was the only she around. This was back in the Two Rivers in book 4. RJ has given every intimation that the wolves being partially connected to T'A'R gives them some kind of foresight.<br /><br />   Otherwise it's a beautiful theory. My hat's off to you sir.<br /><br />   By the way for the record the thing I like about female characters are the ones who stand out. The ones that really do are the ones that've yet to fall in love. Examples being Liandrin, Alviarnin, Elaida, Verin and Cadsuan. Particualrly Elaida as she is a truly tragic figure in the making (by the classical sense of the word). I'd elaborate but hopefully I can turn that into a full theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 06:43:03
subject: <b>um</b>
body:
The first time we see Berelain she makes eyes at Rhuarc in TDR, then tries to bed Rand in TSR. These are the men who are in control of the Stone, which means they influence the Tairens and virtually hold her captive<br /><br />isn't Rhuarc her father?


created: 2001-10-28 07:00:38
subject: <b>Really?</b>
body:
&quot;There's the fact that RJ has stated clearly that Faile will live through the rest of the series&quot;<br /><br />Woah! Can you give me a link or a quote on that? it really doesn't seem like something RJ would say with Faile currently captured by the Shaido...surely that would be a RAFO.<br /><br />Rhuarc treats Berelain as a daughter, but she isn't actually.


created: 2001-10-28 17:49:14
subject: <b>But what is the truce she offers Perrin about?</b>
body:
I agree that a part of the reason Berelain is playing her game is to get even with Faile.  But, that can't be the only reason.  Her action in ruining Perrin's reputation by insinuating that he slept with her, may yet hurt Faile, but there is no guarantee that Faile is even alive to be affected by it.  More importantly, Berelain offered her truce to Perrin, not to Faile.  There is some strange Mayene custom at work here, I am sure.  What is that custom exactly though.  Is it simply that Perrin rebuffed her advances so roughly that she has to get even.  Or was it because Perrin told her off by telling her to take the message to Rand in their first meeting.<br /><br />One last thing, to all you losers out there who hate Faile and Elayne, THHHHHHPPPPTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!! (Real mature I know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> but I feel much better now. ) .<br /><br />I will admit that I find it ammussing the number of people who like Elaida, Liandrin, The Forsaken, or even the Halima controlled Egwene and yet they hate Elayne for being ungrateful or some other nonsense.  That is like saying Hitler rules but Mother Theresa sucks because she was against abortion. (Not that I am comparing Elayne to Mother Theresa, that was the only analogy that came to mind.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 17:49:33
subject: <b>Man in white...</b>
body:
What about Perrin being captured by the Shaido, too, and Berelain rescuing him the next day after he has been put into Gai&#180;shain robes?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 20:49:45
subject: <b>'Shes' is a wolf word.What Min said and Mayene lusts</b>
body:
Min &quot;Well she'll be snubbed up sooner or later. I saw nothing of use to you, just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels in love. Some women have no shame at all&quot;<br /><br />She'll be snubbed. No doubt about it. There is some debate about whethere 'shame' applies to the viewing or just Min's prejudice of Berelain.<br /><br />'Shes' - Wolves call human women 'shes'. This doesn't mean they meant Faile when Hopper said &quot;and shes to give you many cubs&quot;. From memory RJ didn't include the ' - i.e. She's<br /><br />Mayene Lusts - check out the naked Shaido women after Dumai Wells. The Mayeners 'ogled' them. I think in Mayene chasing a married man may be OK. Think of the differences in other places, such as Ebou Dar and Far Madding.<br /> <br />


created: 2001-10-28 21:17:21
subject: <b>Somebody agree with this person!</b>
body:
I've always thought Berelain was the Hawk that Min had seen in her visions.  Faile was obviously the Falcon, and who better than the first of Mayene, who's sign is the Golden Hawk, to be the Hawk? <br /><br />And whoever it was that said about the not liking strong women, well, I like a lot of the women in WoT, but Nynaeve has always annoyed me.  Her and Avhienda...other than those two, I like 'em all.  And don't tell me Moiraine wasn't a strong woman!


created: 2001-10-28 22:08:32
subject: <b>Hey 3 in a boat</b>
body:
I realized after posting that message that I was using poor wording. I had meant that the chapter where Hopper referred to a she that was with Perrin at the time (my memory is foggy of this mind you) seemed like him clearly stating that. The only she that Perrin was near that has been shown in anyway to be romantically linked to him was Faile cause they were in the two rivers. So if Faile is supposed to give him children then it'd seem that she'll live a while longer. I really wish we had an edit feature here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 03:44:50
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
has been snubbed by Rand and Perrin already and no doubt will be again by Perrin before she meets Galad.


created: 2001-10-29 17:05:34
subject: <b>Leashed</b>
body:
One of Min's viewings or Egwene's dreams says that the Hawk held a leash. I don't think RJ plans for Perrin to end up with Berelain.


created: 2001-10-29 20:47:52
subject: <b>'She&quot; and the Sa'sara</b>
body:
Pg 102 of WH - &quot;they commiserated (the wolves) over the loss of his she&quot;<br /><br />Can't remember exact words but when Hopper said &quot;may you know good hunting and shes to give you many cubs&quot;, the human translation would be - &quot;may you know good hunting and women to give you many children&quot;<br /><br />Naughty Hopper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The sa'sara is the key for Berelain to win Perrin should Faile die. Lots has been mentioned of it but nobody has danced it.<br />I'd bet any money that Berelain knows the dance.....very well  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-12-04 17:28:35
subject: <b>Galad</b>
body:
Berelain is going to end up falling for Galad (the &quot;man in white&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Min had a viewing about this.  Berelain has been dogging Perrni as a way to tease Faile, and there is a specific statement in WH when Berelain tries to tell Perrin that she will quit bothering him but he ignores her.  This infuriates her, and I think she will continue to harrass Perrin until she runs into Galad.  I do like Berelain and believe she is going to play a significant role in assisting Rand with the Sanchean and Tuon.  After all, she is a Hawkwing descendant, too.


created: 2001-12-17 11:54:30
subject: <b>In Defense.......</b>
body:
I don't think that Berelain is going to end up with Perrin.  I think that Perrin and all will kick the Shaido's (_|_)s and save Faile and the crowd.  There was a mention of a Whitecloak Gai'shan.  hmmm....  could it be....  Galad?  <br /><br />In defense of Faile, she is from Saldaea.  What she wants from Perrin is for him to stand up to her and thus he becomes stronger himself.  If he is too weak for her...  She wants him to prove to her that he is stronger than her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 00:05:52
subject: <b>She ain't that bad</b>
body:
I guess this comment is coming a biot late, what with the last one being posted on December, but I still blieve I have to stand up for Berelain, who IMHO is one of the better characters in the series. The lightskirt thing and all, we have to admit the people she was chasing after (Rand, almost Mat and Perrin) are really powerful people in RAndland. And have'nt we all had our own fair share of going doe-eyed at someone with authority(and good looks to boot). That being said, there is this whole school of though of her being a light-skirt, and what we have too keep in mind right now is the fact that the people who said this were the Two Rivers women and Faile. I don't need to go into the general sniff inducing stufiness of the Nynaeve and gang to show you their general disposition. While Faile's impression of Berelain might be couloured by her love for Perrin. At the same time, we have the general history of Mayene, whereby they survive by clinging on the coattails of a more powerful nation. So we cannot really fault Berelain for her action, neither can we claim to judge her by somebody else's standards.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-11 02:48:23
subject: <b>Re: In Defence of Berelain</b>
body:
I ahve a comment about:<br /><br />Berelain I also believe has now fallen in love with Perrin - &quot;you will be pleasure in more ways than one&quot;<br /><br />I believe that the pleasure she will have is angering Faile.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Nikikins~~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> &quot;It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got.&quot;  Sheryl Crow</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-24 21:12:56
subject: <b>More ways than one</b>
body:
More ways than one = two<br /><br />1) Getting to bed Perrin<br />2) Giving Faile the sh!ts<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-09 06:55:00
subject: <b>yes, i love this</b>
body:
I've always liked Berelain, and i love this theory. I do hope you're spot on about this. I'd really like to see Perrin with her instead of Faile, oh i do despise her..grrr<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am the Lone Mantis of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look into the night sky!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 17:11:19
subject: <b>Min would have known...</b>
body:
... if her viewing was about Perrin.  The man in white is obviously Galad (or a gai'shain, but I think Galad).<br /><br />If the man in white is going to &quot;sweep her off her feet&quot;, then I don't think she's really in love with Perrin.  She's engaged in a feud with Faile.  Perrin is not the prize, he's the playing field.<br /><br />By the way, I like Faile AND Berelain.  They're both among the best female characters in the series.  Call me crazy, but I think they're going to end up as friends!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 01:31:50
subject: <b>MY INTERPRETATION ..</b>
body:
I thought the following<br />1.  Hopper talking about &quot;she giving you may cubs&quot; I read as may you get looks of nookie<br />2.  Berelaine saying in more &quot;pleasure in more ways than one&quot; (or what ever it was) that she was insinuating Perrin had a big doodle as the previous chapter shows he was naked under the sheets.<br /><br />I know it sounds like I have a one track mind but RJ certainly likes to include the more basic pleasures alot.<br /><br />Also, I am only new to this but what does RAFO mean when RJ says it.  I assume it has something to do with reading if for yourself but I can't work out what the words are.<br /><br />And one more thing.... everone is going on about all these women who are strong. blah, blah, blah,... but I would LOVE someone to actually name a woman in this book who is not strong???  Anyone?????<br />


created: 2003-08-18 00:52:21
subject: <b>*whines*</b>
body:
I don't want Perrin to end up with Berelain.  I don't know why so many people hate Faile, when she and Berelain are so much alike.  I like Berelain, she's a smart cookie, but.....  Perin and Faile are the only ones in the series to have the &quot;pure romance&quot; Perrin is the only truly faithful man in the series.  I don't want to tarnish it.  Mat will always be an ogler and probably a pincher.  Rand has three wives(not that he'd cheat, it's just unconventional).  You get what I mean, Perrin's got a good reputation and he's about the only one.  Maybe, it's just cause Perrin and Faile's attitudes remind me of my own marriage.  Besides I think Berelain would grow bored of Perrin if she actually had him, and quickly, she needs a man who will keep her on her toes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lindsey</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 09:23:28
subject: <b>Tricky One</b>
body:
Hmmmm...Elaida certainly does have similarities with Macbeth and is undoubtedly a tragic figure...but I don't think Jordan based her upon him as he has Rand and King Arthur etc. For one Macbeth is too recent. It's so recent that we KNOW it's a story, we know who wrote it, we can still see the story in it's original form. We also know it's not a true story. This simply doesn't follow the idea that &quot;Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.  Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again&quot;. The whole point of when RJ uses (often somehow twisted) references to Arthur and Christ is that he's saying the tale is so old, it's been passed down for so many generations and sometimes even translated, that it may have changed so much that it only bears vague similarities to what actually happened.<br /><br />There is of course the chance that RJ decided he needed a tragic figure or that Elaida would be one and decided the Macbeth style is good. However, I doubt he means us to believe that what we know of Macbeth is similar to what we think of King Arthur. Of course, you could have just been pointing out that the two characters have similarities and I've spent ten minutes typing this for no reason...<br /><br />The prophecy thing reminds me of another theory that has been posted recently. In it, it explained that prophecy is often just the end result of what happens and that is indeed fixed. However, the causes that lead up to this result are not fixed. For example, prophecy said that the Dragon Reborn would be born on Dragonmount. So that was fixed. We all know the way he was born there (I hope), the causes were a LONG line of events ending in the Aiel flooding over the world because of Laman's Pride (I hope that's right). However, that did not have to be the reason it happened. The pattern allows some free will along the way to the set events (prophecy, Min's viewings etc), so if some other reason had come up for the Aiel to be fighting on Dragonmount, that's ok by the pattern. Anyway, I thought I'd just add that, it's quite obvious if you read the books but it was nice to see it written down fully.


created: 2001-10-29 10:32:23
subject: <b>That was one of the most well writing theories I have read!</b>
body:
It sounds good too.<br />As to the fact that this is a new story, well you can easily say that the idea for the story in Shakespeare<br /> Mind, was spawn from a story that he hared, that was base on long time memory. Shakespeare known as a bit of taking Polk stories and turning them to plays (king leer)<br />The only problem is that this is one of the WOt is our world theory, which are totally wrong.<br />Wot is MARS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 13:35:55
subject: <b>Macbeth is historical...</b>
body:
...as most of Shakespeare&#180;s plays are: In this case, Macbeth WAS king of Scotland from 1040 to 1057 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />. Well, that&#180;s a wee bit later than Arthur is dated, but nevertheless, Shakespeare put up some kind of myth around a monarch and made a play out of it. But I think it is only incidental that no medieval playwright of Shakespeare&#180;s renown took up the Arthur saga and wrote a drama on it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 14:24:49
subject: <b>That's interesting</b>
body:
I didn't know Macbeth is based upon a real historical king.<br /><br />However, as it is and is even dated, it pretty much reinforces my idea that this isn't the King Arthur/Christ style thing Jordan likes. Perhaps it would be if it was furhter back in history, but 1000 years is not that long a time, I've studied English history from that time and things were documented. It's not like more ancient figures like Arthur where information about him was basically passed on in stories etc, there aren't any holy grail style things.


created: 2001-10-29 16:29:25
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I really like the idea of the comparison, but it doesn't quite fit.  MacB was afraid of L MacB and took much of her advice on fear that he would lose what power he had(which definitely relates) as well as fear he would lose her if he did not increase his political ambition.  He felt he could not increse his standing in the the monarchy without her.  Alviarin certainly manipulates Elaida's situation to accrue benefits for herself as L McB does, yet L McB is much more worm-toungued about it.  Alviarin blackmails Elaida with a straight-forwardness that was not seen in Lady Macbeth's character.  Elaida's blind ambition before Alviarin's influence does not quite lend itself to the comparison either.  Macbeth was content where he was until L MacB convinced him that he was worth more, and was deserving of the title of king.  He still wasn't convinced after L MacB's first attempt.  (check out &quot;If it were done, when 'tis done...&quot; speech in Act I, Sc. VII as well as the ensuing scene)  But, I can see how it's possible RJ would use legendary references and symbolisms from mythology and religion for his &quot;wheel of time&quot;, as well as use plot lines and/or character traits from the greatest playwrite in history... even if events don't play out like &quot;Macbeth.&quot;<br />Cool idea, though.<br />mauladala <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 20:24:57
subject: <b>Hold up...</b>
body:
I keep getting the jive that Elaida IS afraid of Alviarin, even if only subconsciously. She keeps trying to get around Alviarin's orders and similar &quot;small acts of defiance.&quot; (hehehe, sucks for Elaida!) Anyhow, I agree with the MacBeth parallel. Good Job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 21:05:48
subject: <b>I like it, except for one thing..</b>
body:
I don't think Alviarin will every commit suicide.  Have we seen any DFs ever take their own lives? (I don't remember, but I don't think they do.)  Why?  Because the DO is the lord of the *grave*.  His influence, rather obviously, extends to the dead, and Alviarin, by killing herself, would risk irritating the DO by escaping the wrath of mere Aes Sedai.  Given the choice, I think she'd do the &quot;reasonable&quot; thing (she is White, after all) and try to escape (she is learning gateways and such from Mesaana) or somehow staying alive and helping the side of the Dark.  I might just be giving her a bit too much credit here, though.<br /><br />And I don't know that Jordan knowingly bases Elaida's story on Macbeth. It's a recurring tragic theme, isn't it? I think you could find similar parallels between Elaida and, say, Richard III (killing the rightful prince/stilling the Amyrlin, blackmailed by confederates, etc.).  And I'm not sure I'd call the weird sisters evil, either, but that's another story. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />BTW, I really like the prophecy-as-videotape analogy... that's really clever.<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-10-29 23:00:42
subject: <b>Not MacBeth...</b>
body:
Actually, it wasn't MacBeth who was the real Scottish king, but Banquo (who met the witches the first time with MacBeth).  And he was the precurser of King James' I lineage. It was sort of a gift to the King by Bard Bill, and he also got royal patronage for it.


created: 2001-10-29 23:54:19
subject: <b>Re: Not Macbeth</b>
body:
Is that true? I have a little book of the kings of England and Scotland, and Macbeth is listed in it... Granted, it's for about four months in a time when there must have been intense civil strife, because there are several kings at the same time, but I thought he had been king at least a little while. I guess the meaning of a king in the 11th century was a little loose, though...<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-10-30 02:18:58
subject: <b>Thanks for all the comments....</b>
body:
...Both negative and positive. I think this is the best theory I've done in awhile or possible ever. There's another one I got brewing about Cyndane and slayer that I may resend and one that deals with Mat.<br /><br />   3 Boat I was going more for a way of pointing out that the characters had similarities rather than saying definitively that RJ based Elaida on MacBeth.<br /><br />   User thanks for the kind words I'm blushing. I think the theory on WoT being earth is rather irrelevant to most of these mythology theories. If it is our earth, then the legends are in either their past or we are their future and remembering themes of their events. If not, then it's a statement on how common certain themes and situations are in the world.<br /><br />   Gaidin whose first initial is L and whose name is very hard to spell<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> That is to say Llaydwhonn Gaidin   Thanks for bringing up that fact.<br /><br />   Mauladala I agree that there are a lot of differences in this situation. Again I wasn't going for a unified proof that McB and EdAaR (short for Elaida do Avrihny a Roihan) are the same archetype so I expect differences.<br /><br />   Nita I agree that Elaida is trying to deny her fear of Alviarnin. I think the biggest problem is that Alviarnin is not afraid of Elaida. The woman took down Siuan without too much hardship. Alvi is thinking that having some dirt on the boss Lady will keep her safe. The only problem is that a cornered person with nothing to lose will start to do desperate crazy things.<br /><br />   Jynna the idea I had in mind about Alviarnin killing herself was as a last ditch effort. If she get's stilled or surrounded by Aes Sedai then she may have to do the logical thing and kill herself to avoid capture. The dark one would probably be more pissed off if she got trapped and gave out all the names of the BA or all the info she has at least. Look what happened to Moghedien. She got thrashed by Shadar Haran and put on a mind trap leash. This was the punishment for a CHOSEN. Do you think a mere Black Ajah is going to get even that much mercy?<br /><br />   By the way thanks for the compliment about the video tape analogy. I was worried that it would fall flat because it felt so awkward.<br /><br />   Vashti Re: The Scottish King scenario. I think that there was a lot of dispute over that at the time. Let's suffice it to say that for awhile MacBeth had a lot of power and was making claim to the throne.<br /><br />   Thanks for all the kind words. I like this part of the site because I can always count on an honest reaction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 10:57:35
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Keep 'em coming LS! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 03:40:15
subject: <b>Well thought out theory</b>
body:
I think that one of the reasons we all like the WOT so much is that it very uniqely blends a host of myths, religions, cultures and histories (things that have real impact on real life) in such a way as to open your imagination to the fantastic through the everyday.  It hits a note in us that wants it to be real because so much of it is based on things we already accept and believe to be real.  This theory is very well thought out and solid.  I hope to hear more.  Kudos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> to you.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What's the point of wearing your favorite rocketship underpants if no one can see them? <br />-Calvin-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 06:19:00
subject: <b>the specifics aren't as important as we'd like to think</b>
body:
i once heard someone claim that there are only about 30 or so absolutely original stories and that everything else is derived from these...whether that's true or not isn't important...we can all see that when you take a story (or anything, really) down to its most basic level, it holds a great deal of similarities with other stories.<br /><br />and since i really don't have anything to add to the comments above, i just wanted to say Good Job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-03 16:04:33
subject: <b>Robert Jorden Tends to avoid exact copying</b>
body:
I agree that Elaida could be a representation of Macbeth, but she has her own unique qualities that set her apart.  If you remember from what Siuan Sanche and other sisters stated, in her mind everything she has done has been right in her mind expect for letting Alvarian blackmail her.  Macbeth new that killing the king was wrong when he did it, Elaida feared that Siuan would have destroyed the tower.  Also, Robert Jordan may just want to put in a redemption rather than just killing her.


created: 2001-11-05 10:10:20
subject: <b>Macbeth was a king of Scotland</b>
body:
But he reigned longer then what the play seems to suggest.  Shakespeare wrote macbeth to suck up to King James, who had just taken over the throne of england after Queen Elizabeth died leaving no children.  Apparently, James was desended from Banquo's family.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~The Finkster~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Mischief maker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Eater of giant marshmallows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Procrastinator extraodinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i> Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 16:46:31
subject: <b>A very good theory</b>
body:
Currently I am directing the play MacBeth and I've heard alot of comparisons between MacBeth and other characters in fantasy books, but this is the best one I've heard (I can't believe I didn't think of it myself). Good Job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Goddess of Snakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 19:20:22
subject: <b>Hmmmm tricky one</b>
body:
Well this all stems from whether you belive Macbeth the play to be a tragedy. I would personally lean more to the belief that Macbeth is a morality play with the representation of the battle between good and evil. Evil is dominant throughout the play, but even so the 'new dawn' with Malcolm wins in the end.<br /><br />I dont like to think of Macbeth as a targedy because technically a tragic hero is traditionally regarded as a man with many great qualities who falls from greatness due to one specific flaw in his personality. However can this be said about Macbeth....doubtful. Macbeth is agreat warrior (he killed a man by 'unseaming him from knave to chaps') and knows that murdering Duncan is wrong, but those are his only real qualitites. He has many flaws: jealousy, pride, ambition (which he himself says 'oerleaps himself', thus he recognises it as a flaw) and many others. Yes Macbeth does realise the error of his ways, which is essential for it actually to be regarded as a tragedy but this is let down by his many flaws. Its really up to the individual.<br /><br />Elaida as Macbeth......hmmmmm.....Ill grant you its a very similair circumstance at the core of it all, but at the same time it is also just an example of retribution for a crime. And Elaida certainly has few good points about her, in fact i can only see one good thing (that she fights for the Light), and so this really does prevent her form being a tragi hero.<br /><br />PSSST, if u want to see a tragic hero, and a proper tragedy (not saying MacB isnt but there is some debate on it and I do lean more towards it being a morality play) go and read Julius Caesar and look for Brutus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 01:10:44
subject: <b>Macbeth: Normal to Evil Elaida: Irritating to...stooge of evil</b>
body:
I don't think the comparison is *quite* as close as everyone else seems to think.  I see MacBeth as someone who started out good and was corrupted by supernatural forces, in the form of both the weird sisters and also the inexplicable female evil (sorry, girls) of Lady MacBeth.  Remember that in the beginning the weird sisters were already planning to meet again once the &quot;hurly-burly's done&quot;?  It was as if MacBeth were foreordained to do what he did, and by the end he indeed was truly evil.  But Elaida, however wrongheaded, arrogant and downright irritating she can be at times, is not evil.  She did not set out to take Siuan down unlawfully, she seems to honestly believe the charges against her.  She seems intent on trying to subdue Rand, yes, but because she wants the world to survive the Last Battle.  And she wants to destroy the Black Tower because, well, they're male channelers!  They Broke the world!  Rand is the Dragon, he has to stay alive and ungentled, but hundreds of them running around?  No way.<br />   I'm not saying I agree with most of Elaida's reasoning, or that she did the right thing, but I'm the omniscient observer.  In her eyes, I think she's been practical, trying to keep the world from crumbling.  I don't think that she has really been evil yet.  And if she is to fit into the MacBeth archetype, Alviarin still has a lot of work to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-03 17:29:40
subject: <b>Woooooooooooooooow...</b>
body:
This theory is GENIUS. (stares in absoulte awe) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...<br />Of course, I've never read MacBeth, nor seen the play, nor seen the movie (if there was one made).  I'll probably read it next year as a Senior, though personally, Shakespeare is a little depressing for my taste.<br /><br />Samshaidar Mhael<br />Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow<br /><br />p.s. how do you do the vertical slash symbol, you know, the one in the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />, I always have to copy and paste, its driving me nuts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 21:10:24
subject: <b>Very good, Lord Sauvant</b>
body:
I agree with your analogy.<br /><br />Think back to those seeking power and glory for themselves, and picturing the world holding them awe:   <br /><br />Elaida--The DR will be mentioned, but her name will be at the top of the list next to Rand.<br /><br />Neald {White Cloak Comm.}--He will get rid of Rand and lead the world against the DO himself.  He is now DEAD.<br /><br />Ingtar: He would get possession of the Horn of Valere and defeat the DO by using the Horn.  He is now DEAD {though he did redeem himself}.<br /><br />The moral is that those seeking honor and glory will surely fail, and Elaida`s name is high on the list.<br /><br />I would call her a tragic figure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 16:17:06
subject: <b>Nice try but. . .</b>
body:
I don't think this is at all what will happen. Most likely everyone will be involved in the last battle, and it will probably take place on the slopes of SG.<br />Now as for Rand losing a hand, it will most likely be some sort of sacrifice.  I think it also states in one of Min's Viewings of Elayne. I can't remember it exactly but it says something along the lines of a bloody hand (not hers) and a white hot iron floating over her head. So I think she will play a part in Rand losing his hand and as some think his sight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 18:39:41
subject: <b>Fenris is quite obvious once you know what it is</b>
body:
Fenris was bound twice, once with the stongest substance known to the gods (*ahem* heartstone) the second with a magical chain.  Fenrir loses a hand Rand has a severed hand in his future.  Finally their are the teeth of the DO.  I am not quite sure how that fits in with Rands blood in the Pit of Doom though (Rand's bleeds in the pit of doom than runs back and gets only his hands caught in the teeth? )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 18:57:46
subject: <b>Yeah, and one more thing...</b>
body:
Perrin can't be turned to the Dark One by thirteen sisters and thirteen Myrdraal or by Bayle Domon's aged grandmother. Perrin can not channel.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-29 21:02:58
subject: <b>i like that!</b>
body:
yeah, perrin can't be turned to the dark one by thirteen sisters.  he can't channel!  i like that!  maybe some other way but i feel that sometimes people get caught up with all the characters that they sometimes attribute some of the things that can happen to one with others.<br /><br />how many &quot;hands&quot; does rand have now, anyway?  the aiel, the tairens, the cairheniens (sp.), illianers, mat, perrin, aes sedai, ashaman.....plus his own two hands.  which one will he lose?  this could be symbolic, as in he loses one group of his followers, or very explicit, as in he loses one of his hands (this ties very closely to norse, greek, and roman mythos).  in that case, what &quot;eye&quot; does mat lose?  unfortunately, only RJ knows, and he ain't telling until the completion of the series.


created: 2001-10-30 01:20:28
subject: <b>Agreeing with the others...</b>
body:
This theory is a)too far a stretch and b)impossible, only channelers can be turned to the Shadow. I don't think RJ would mirror the myth that far. However, I do think that Rand has some very Tyresque attributes, and as we all know Mat and Perrin mirror Odin and Thor respectively. The &quot;losing the hand&quot; reference could be almost anything - it is another RAFO. We can't even formulate a sensible theory on it, yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 04:12:00
subject: <b>Idle thoughts about losing the hand thingy...</b>
body:
This thing just popped to my mind when somenone mentioned the Elayne and the severed hand thing.<br /><br />Remember the end of the EOTW? I'm sure you all have read it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Wll, in the Blight, there's this... uhm... thing, what was it again? whose bite kills you unless the bitten part is amputated. IIRC the bite starts digesting the victim or something similar. Anyways, ring a bell? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Unfortunately I borrowed my copy of the EOTW to a friend and thus can't check it. But it happened on the way to the Green Man. Anyone want to check the exact quote?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 16:11:57
subject: <b>that gos was the god of courag too</b>
body:
rand wil probely lose an hand , and an aye, and lost of other body farts since it semms Rj is tring to make his sacrpies big.<br />p.s remember the life he had in the stone on palm? <br />in one of thows he lost alot of body parts, mayby it is a replection to the rall life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 11:02:57
subject: <b>Tyr</b>
body:
I don't Tyr played that big a part in Ragnarok, or any part for that matter.  I did a research paper on it and don't remember him in it.<br /><br />Plus, Rand also mirrors Thor, in some ways more than Perrin.  Same with Mat and Odin.  They kind of like interchange some aspects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 16:14:26
subject: <b>Never be too hasty to dismiss...</b>
body:
Let's not be too hasty in our criticisims.  I believe that the poster is on to something, but that he is just missing the mark a bit.  The part about sacrificing the hand.  Let's explore it.<br /><br />Min had a viewing at two separate times, one of a severed hand and a searing hot rod, and the second time an axe, a severed hand, and a searing hot rod.  (I believe those are the viewings)  A far fetched analogy based on the symbolism could be this.   Severed hand, Band of the Red Hand. (The leader being, Mat)    Axe  (Typically the symbol we associate with Perrin) and the searing hot rod (Either the staff that scorched the wound into Rand, or perhaps a bar of balefire, or other, so we'll concede that part is unclear.)<br /><br />It has been hinted at that Mat must die, and live again. (In the prophecies and foretellings)  I had previously thought this occurred during the balefire sequence with the forsaken, but perhaps it was not the rebirth I assumed it was.  Perhaps Mat has yet to die and be reborn.   Also there is the foreshadowing about the '...Price he must pay...' in regards to Rand. I had always assumed the price he would have to pay would be his own life.  But what if the price he must pay, is sacrificing Mat, allowing Mat to die that he (Rand) might succeed.  This would fit the symbolism of 'biting off the hand' 'the severed hand' and the 'band of the red hand'.  The axe being present could imply that maybe Rand has to sacrifice both of his closests friends.  This would truly be a heartwrenching and painful '...Price he must pay...', but a remote and easily arrived at possibility.   I know I leave a lot to speculation, the rod, the accuracy of the viewings Min has, the translation of them, etc.    But this is just an idea to play with.  See if you can prove it further, or refute it.


created: 2002-01-04 10:03:00
subject: <b>Perrin channeling?</b>
body:
As someone on the board for Mat theories pointed out, it may be possible that Mat can channel, due to the amount of people coming from the Two Rivers with the ability.  His sisters, for one, have the ability.  In the same way, Perrin could possibly have the ability.  Remember, people can be taught to channel.  They don't have to have the spark that forces them to do it.  It could just be that Perrin (and Mat) haven't had the time to visit our lying friend Taim at the Black Tower.  Could you imagine that?  Perrin as an Asha'man?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Hey, why'd that Tolkien guy copy Robert Jordan?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 22:23:58
subject: <b>Inconsistent</b>
body:
( gets on soap box )<br /><br />While I hate to be a jerk and point some stuff out that was wrong.  Fenris (aka Fenrir) was not bound by a chain.  When the Norse gods realized his power they decided to confine him, because unlike Greek or Roman gods, Norse gods could die.  In fact almost all do in Raganok.  Ok, back to what I set out to accomplish.  At first the gods approached the dwarves to create a chain to contain him, but Fenrir easily broke it.  Eventually the gods go to the dwarves to make a new chain.  The dwarves fashioned a silken bond out of six things: the sound of a cat's footfalls, the beard of a maiden, the roots of a mountain, the dreams of a bear, the breath of a fish and the spittle of a bird. This is what bonded him.  Fenrir is bonded by this until Raganok (last battle) where he will kill Odin.  <br /><br />( gets off soap box )<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-14 22:19:40
subject: <b>My two cents...</b>
body:
I believe basically will boil down to a situation several prophecies from the books converge.  <br /><br />1) The prophecy about Perrin needing to be near Rand a second time to help him (ie. him running to make it near him in time)<br /><br />2)  Obviously Rand's Severed Hand prophecy<br /><br />3)  Elaynes severd Hand (not hers) prophecy<br /><br />From the last book (WH) we have found out that:<br />The male a'dam WAS NOT dispersed to sea by Bayle Domon as  we thought after TGH.  <br /><br />Here is what I believe can happen:  In Rand's presence, someone threatens to kill Elayne in front of his very eyes unless he wears the a'dam.  Like Tyr, Rand will WILLINGLY (yet still forced from circumstance) put it on.  Now, in order to stop this &quot;Fenris&quot; of sorts (the person controlling Rand), Perrin will have to burst into the scene and remove Rand's hand from whoever is controlling him.  The likey person who controls him will either be Aes Sedai or Seanchan.  I'm betting on Seanchan, but we know the Aes Sedai will try to hurt him again in the series as we found out from Min in Lord of Chaos.  <br /><br />As you may have guessed, this mythological parallel is one of my favorites from the book.  I believe this event will mirror Tyr's because or Mat's wisdom gain from Rhuidean is very close to Odin's hang from the Tree of Life.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-15 09:46:39
subject: <b>Hands and Wolves</b>
body:
I think, yes we can all agree the Mat-Odin paralell is undeniable. I,or anyone else who knows Norse myth well, could spend 20 minutes elcturing on the similairities.<br /><br /> However, msot of these supposed Fenris paralells I see being made here are a real stretch. First of all, you're assuming just because you find one mythological background that you've found the one that will drive the plotline. Evbery group and charachter and idea iin WoT has several backgrounds to it. <br /><br />TG is very much patterned after Ragnarok. The seals on the dark one's prison are very much like the chain that binds Fenris. and in Ragnarok all the forces in the world come to battle, are detsroyed and the world is made anew. Just like the breaking.<br /><br />Here's my two cents on the final showdown though. It is gonig to be soiemthing unexpected, but sitll within the bounds of the prophetic limitations RJ had made for himself. If Rand actually dies at TG then we feel let down that all the hype about wetehr he woiuld or not was for noithing. If he just walks away with a few cuts 'spillnig blood on the rocks of shayoll goul' then we feel gypped &quot;I coulda seen that comnig a mile away&quot;<br /><br />The simple fact of the matter is, i think it's jsut gonig toi be something we won't ever expect. <br /><br />Think about the fall of thwe stone, we didn't know all the elements existed to comprise the fufillment of the prophexcy until after it was fufilled. RJ plays close to the vest poker with us, and I for one love it.


created: 2003-06-09 22:03:50
subject: <b>Tyr did do some good...</b>
body:
Tyr and the wolfhound Garm killed each other during Ragnarok. Garm was the one who guarded the entrance to Hel (realm of the dead).<br />Another thing about Ragnarok is that the fire-giant Surt(the black/dark one) is the &quot;last man standing&quot;. He hurls fire over the entire world which is engulfed in flame.<br />The world is then reshaped, and they lived happily ever after... =)<br />


created: 2004-11-03 17:08:11
subject: <b>Another idea!</b>
body:
Im new to this site but a long time fan of the WOT series.   I came up with another idea of who Fenris might be and the relationship to the series it might hold.   <br /><br />A noticed while reading a book on norse mythology that Perrin resembled a norse god whom i havent seen anyone speak of as of yet.   Currently i dont have the book with me but i believe the Gods name was Vidar, the silent god.   He was very strong and talked rarely.   I may be going out on a limb with this but seeing some of the other theories out there it wouldnt hurt much.   <br /><br />Vidar was meant to face Fenris in Ragnarok, and to avenge the death of his father Odin during Ragnarok. (as odin was supposed to die by Fenris.)   <br /><br />So test this out for a moment.   What i think is going to happen, and i believe there has been a foreshadowing of this, is that Elyas or another wolf brother will be turned to the DO by use of the darkhounds.   This gives a rally point and a leader to the darkhounds and also gives a reason for the wolfbrothers to be resurfacing.   This collective unit of darkhounds and a dark wolfbrother could be considered Fenris.   <br /><br />Now, Fenris kills Odin in Ragnarok yes?   Well who reminds us of Odin more than our own Matrim?   Maybe he doesnt neccesarily kill Mat, but I think most of the characters are going to die come the last battle.   If the first attack is based on Mat, which would seem likely as he is not only Taverene, but also a great general on the good side, Fenris would not only severe the band of the red hand from Tyr (Rand) but he would also kill Odin.   This leaves way for Perrin to lead his wolves and battalions against the dark hounds and dark wolf brothers and take revenge for Mats death.<br /><br />This may be far fetched but i think it will happen something like this if not exactly.


created: 2001-10-30 01:22:40
subject: <b>Uhhh...</b>
body:
Umm, so, where did the Ogier get their Treesinging abilities? How come they are only about twice as big as ordinary humans? And they don't have golden eyes? And the examples we have seen of crazy Wolfbrothers act like wolvs, not Ogier? And the Ogier in Seanchan are peaceful? And your theory is totally wrong? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 02:50:14
subject: <b>Um... 3 questions</b>
body:
One are you kidding? Two no really is this a joke and Three c'mon fess up this is a gag right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 07:33:18
subject: <b>Um...</b>
body:
I disagree about everything you've stated in this theory. Especially about faile. ESPECIALLY FAILE! she's all beast if you ask me... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> hehe...


created: 2001-10-30 10:49:12
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Thanks for the laugh.  Seriously.  Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 12:33:00
subject: <b>Once again...</b>
body:
the question comes up as to why this theory was posted. I mean come on, at one glance you can tell it's crap, it's not even one of those that don't use evidence but are long, it's short and rubbish. Surely this should have simply been discarded.


created: 2001-10-30 21:31:39
subject: <b>yes, normally it would have ben tossed...</b>
body:
But I just wanted to show those who don't seem to understand that we get a lot more crap than some think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 00:36:29
subject: <b>okay Ras, point taken.</b>
body:
NOW can we delete this please?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 13:14:07
subject: <b>Heheheh</b>
body:
Does it cause much pain?  <br /><br />I'll think about it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 18:51:32
subject: <b>Please Ras?</b>
body:
Most people willingly make a mumor section-esque post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 06:36:49
subject: <b>Right??????</b>
body:
what the 'ell you do be tinkin'?  light burn me lad!  'ow dare you insult the wolves that way!  blood and bloody ashes!


created: 2002-10-17 03:49:36
subject: <b>argh</b>
body:
the only thing that made any sense was the comment about &quot;The Mistress of Jealous Behaviour Faile&quot;. Unfortunatly you can't call her a beast, because that would be insulting to beasts.<br />Come up with a better theory before posting please.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> sister of veritas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />  lady of honour <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />   carri


created: 2002-12-20 12:27:14
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
Bad theory.  Cool name.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> = me very very <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 23:27:39
subject: <b>that is the strangest theory ive ever heard</b>
body:
not only is it strange its illogical, i cant see how this connection was made at all, were you stoned or something.


created: 2007-07-26 11:29:15
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
ARE YOU STUPID???????? WTF??????????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-26 11:30:03
subject: <b>WHY</b>
body:
why is this theory not in the humourous theories area? thats where it belongs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-01-02 13:13:49
subject: <b>you idiot</b>
body:
no to every thing the ogier are a completely different race than humans they never were humans and they never were wolf brothers. we don't know why the wolves avoid them but it is not because the used to be wolf brothers and eventually went mad.


created: 2001-10-30 01:24:58
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
The Creator is the Light, Shai't-the Dark One is the Dark. They are equally balanced, and equally powerful. However, if you are suggesting that Lighfriends exist, I can't agree. Verin hunts the Black Ajah, remember?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 02:31:25
subject: <b>It was a joke!!!</b>
body:
I do not believe that there are &quot;Lightfriends&quot; in the sense of a secret society that works for the light, because otherwise what would our friends be? Or the Heroes of the Horn, for that matter?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 07:23:07
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I don't think anyone thinks that the DO is/was human anymore, those must be old/stupid theories.<br /><br />It's VERY difficult to speculate over this sort of DO and Creator thing currently, not enough is known.<br /><br />Here's part of a RJ Q&amp;A:<br /><br />&quot;Doug Carlson from Urbana, IL: What would happen if the Dark One was victorious? And why can the Dark One act on the world but it seems the Creator cannot?<br /><br />RJ: It's a good question, and an important theme -- but read and find out.&quot;<br /><br />From what is said it suggests to me that we shouldn't be able to work this out yet, we'll need to read what comes up in the next books. I fully believe we will see the Creator speak at least one more time in the series and hopefully with more comments from the DO, we'll begin to understand this.<br /><br />As for why the DO hasn't turned channellers from this time...well, he has. Taim is extremely powerful, I wouldn't be surprised if he ranks somewhere in the middle of the Chosen in terms of power. There have even been attempts or ideas to turn Nynaeve or some of the others, I believe Be'lal and Moghedien have both suggested training them someday, but luckily they've never been able to. The only one who would be considered for the Chosen (out of the main women channelers) of course would be Nynaeve, as the others are not strong enough (and who says the dO even wants any new Chosen?). Also, we don't know how many turned to the DO in the AoL and how powerful they were compared to those who didn't turn, we know that there were at least 100 very strong young male channelers who accompanied LTT to Shayol Ghul. However, their names and other names of powerful channelers for the Light have been lost, just as I'm sure most of the Chosen's would have been if it wasn't for the fact that they are (nearly) immortal and the Aes Sedai knew they had to preserve their names so the world would be ready (hah) when they woke again. So while it may seem that in the AoL there were far more strong channelers going over to the DO, it's not really true. I mean, at a guess I reckon at least 1/3 of the Asha'man are on Taim's side and many will become dreadlords. I'm also willing to bet that the BA is the largest Ajah there is, they just don't know enough of each other to realise this.


created: 2001-10-30 11:15:58
subject: <b>Creator can't interfear</b>
body:
I don't think the Creator can effect the world.  I think that is the balance for him to have the ability to make something from nothing.  While the DO can touch the world if he is free but he cannot make something from nothing.  Always a balance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 12:13:11
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
The very fact that there is a yin-yang symbol within this series proves your point- whether or not it has to do with saidin and saidar or not.  That symbol has always stood for the balance of good and evil/the balance of power.  One completes the other.  <br />I would think that &quot;Lightfriends&quot; (I know you were kind of kidding with that label) would be anyone NOT a darkfriend.<br />Darkfriends, being liars and oathbreakers and murderers, have the advantage as far as limitless tactics for their side, but The Light has the advantage of numbers (as far as DFs...not trollocs and other inventions of the shadow)<br />Padan Fain/Mordeth is a classic example of evil destroys evil.  He is upsetting the balance of good v. evil, and will end up facing both sides and losing.<br />-mauladala<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 13:11:37
subject: <b>slight correction</b>
body:
I think in the war of power the dark one was fully out of his prison.After all the bore let him touch the world directly<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">f@@k it im ganging tae the boozer<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 21:55:44
subject: <b>For the record</b>
body:
I thought he was using the phrase 'light friends' in a manner referring to those who serve the light. People like Rand and Nynaeve (who he'd just mentioned) are the closest things to light friends since they serve the light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 23:13:29
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
I've always thought that the DO was the embodiment of all that is against (or contrary to) the pattern. The DO and the pattern had to come from somewhere, so as far as I've thought, the Creator (the one who made it all) is all powerful, and the Pattern and the DO contend with each other through the ages.<br /><br />It stands to reason that the Creator is able to make things that are less powerful than him(it)self but not greater than, nor (I think) his(its) equal.<br /><br />So the balance is there, but between the DO and Pattern, not the DO and the Creator. Think of Ta'veren and their 'goodness'. Think of the DO's avowed intent to remake THE PATTERN in his image. Makes sense to me....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 02:44:43
subject: <b>To Jeremias</b>
body:
The Creator did not create the DO, the DO is eternal just as the Creator is, unless RJ plans to lie to us for the whole series, and then hit us with something new and tack on a rippoff ending. Something tells me that that is not going to happen, soin that case, if the guide is anything to go by, the DO and the Creator are both eternal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-01 18:59:50
subject: <b>My mini-theory</b>
body:
My theory is that the opposite natures of the DO and the Creator drive the wheel. The creator realized this and imprisoned the DO. The only thing that was powerful enough was the creator himself. The DO is now learning how to pass through the seal of the creator. When the last seal is broken the creator will have no need on focusing on the shield/prison and will touch the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 23:47:18
subject: <b>Listen carefully you morons...</b>
body:
The DO is nowhere near the creator in terms of power.  I got a bunch of things to say...<br /><br />a)the creator wasn't the DO's prison, because lanfear couldn't bore through the creator<br /><br />b) the DO WAS completely free in the AoL<br /><br />c)the DO considers the dragon his equal.  he talked to demandred about his age old enemy the dragon...if he were on the creator's level he would have said the PAWN of my age old enemy, but he didn't.  Rand and the DO are on the same level, but rand's immense potential is somewhat untapped.  When he reaches full power, rand will be as powerful as the DO, who is in reality a pawn of a greater  force.  DO balances the dragon, DO's master balances the creator...it all works out.<br /><br />d)which one of you punks stole my tang?<br /><br />wow...i've gotta be racking up wot-enemies by starting every post with an insult.  By now i've probably got as many enemies as bill gates.  oh well.<br /><br />Until my next post, I remain,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-29 22:58:53
subject: <b>hey Metalica</b>
body:
a)&quot;the creator wasn't the DO's prison, because lanfear couldn't bore through the creator.&quot; Says who? If his strength was being used up, and he is not physical (her bore was through the pattern, not the Creator. The creator was not a stone wall, he just kept the DO from ripping the Pattern) then she very well could have.<br /><br />b) &quot;the DO WAS completely free in the AoL.&quot; Uhhh... says who? Why do you think that the Forsaken were at SG that day? To free him completley.<br /><br />c)&quot;the DO considers the dragon his equal. he talked to demandred about his age old enemy the dragon...if he were on the creator's level he would have said the PAWN of my age old enemy, but he didn't. Rand and the DO are on the same level, but rand's immense potential is somewhat untapped. When he reaches full power, rand will be as powerful as the DO, who is in reality a pawn of a greater force. DO balances the dragon, DO's master balances the creator...it all works out.&quot; Oh, so there's a SUPER bad guy more powerful then the DO that we havent seen yet? Whatever you say <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />d)&quot;which one of you punks stole my tang?&quot; *points to Three in a Boat*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-10 00:44:53
subject: <b>Creator as Judeo-Christian God</b>
body:
I think that the Creator at least partially is representative of the god of judeo-christian mythology.  This fits with his non-involvement and the strong involvement of Shai'tan (Satan).  As an atheist living with devout christians, I know a little something about the religion.  Many people say that the reason there aren't big biblical style miracles any more is that we are living in a time in which evil is dominant.  The book of Revelations in the New Testament predicts a time in which Satan (Shai'tan) will rule over the earth, and God (the Creator) will not interfere until the unfaithful have been winnowed out.  So, in closing, I see Shai'tan being the active one in Randland's &quot;endtimes&quot; with the Creator making a final appearance for the Apocolypse.  (not necessarily an ending i want to see, but I fear it may be true)<br /><br />Just my two cents' worth


created: 2002-11-14 23:54:00
subject: <b>The answer to why the dark one acts while the light is sitting on his hands</b>
body:
The DO and the creator were in the beggining equal. They fought about the world. But then came humans looking for a new power that both men and women can use. They sense something and start to drill. And the dark one and the creator is so equal that even that tiny pulse of huma power shifts the balance slightly to the DO's advantage. The DO is a tad stronger tha the creator now.<br />And this whole series of books is about the humans repairing the damage and restoring the equality.


created: 2002-11-26 17:08:59
subject: <b>Light and Shadow</b>
body:
I think that The Creator and The Dark One could also be termed The Light and The Shadow. They are two sides of the same coin....The good guys in WoT swear by The Light, and to me something in &quot;the light&quot; must cause a shadow.<br />The Creator can and must have his opposite imprisoned, but never defeated, as he would also cease to be.<br />I think that is why for Age after Age, a new hero must be found to battle against The Dark One, and keep him bound.<br />Any takers on this theory?


created: 2003-01-25 22:12:43
subject: <b>maybe, but...</b>
body:
The world of WoT is based on balance, but not necessarily the balance between good and evil--for example, I think it makes more sense that the white &amp; black in the Aes Sedai symbol reflect saidar and saidin, not Light and Dark.  After all, it's based on the yin-yang circle, which represents the contrast between male &amp; female forces.  Anyway, why would the Aes Sedai support the existence of evil, when theoretically their whole purpose is to fight it?<br />     The Creator and the DO don't seem to be on the same level, either.  In the Eye of the World, the Creator steps in to tell Rand that he can't expect to confront the DO right away and that the final reckoning will come later.  If He has the luxury of intervening when he chooses and setting up the circumstances of Tarmon Gai'don, that implies that He has a lot of power that he just chooses not to use.


created: 2003-05-25 21:39:02
subject: <b>The Dark One - not equal to the Creator</b>
body:
The Creator created everything - including the Dark One.  Everything that happens does so according to His plan.<br /><br />The Dark One wants to usurp this process and remake Creation in his own manner.  <br /><br />If the Creator and the DO were equal in power, then how was the DO able to be locked away?  Was he tricked?  The term &quot;Power&quot; describes knowledge and wisdom as well as other &quot;abilities&quot;, so in this sense the DO is definitely not the equal of the Creator.<br /><br />I argue that the Creator, being a force of Good, would never stoop to the level of having to 'trick' the Dark One.  He is simply more powerful than the DO.<br /><br />The DO I believe was created by the Creator to embody Evil.  Naturally as the embodiment of Evil, the DO would want to remake everything in his own image - that doesn't mean he gets to.<br /><br />Just like the forces of Heaven and Hell battle over control of the Earth, so too does Shai'tan struggle with his Father, the Creator, for the hearts and minds of the residents of Jordan's world.<br /><br />But that doesn't mean Shai'tan can or will win.<br /><br />The Creator did not create the world so that he would go in and meddle with it. In His eyes, the world is perfect and does not need direct intervention.  The &quot;System&quot; of the Wheel and the Pattern takes care of everything.  The Dark One is a part of that System, although he hates it, and so does directly meddle in the affairs of the Pattern.<br /><br />But, when the DO tries to ruin the Pattern, he is just fulfilling its purpose.<br /><br />Odrion


created: 2001-10-30 01:29:45
subject: <b>Ahh...no.</b>
body:
Just a few objections<br />-We know from Faile's thoughts that she walks in the Light. Every other DF thinks something about the DO to let us know. She doesn't.<br />-All the other Forsaken have taken a previously unknown persona and promoted themselves rapidly. This does not fit Bashere. (It does fit Dobraine.)<br />-His wife would have to be in on it.<br />-The messengers may not have reached Tenobia for a simple reason - she is &quot;on retreat in the country&quot; (also known as chasing the Dragon Reborn.)<br />-Basically, Bashere shows no Demandred like traits. I sincerely doubt that he (Demmy) is THAT good an actor.<br />-Bashere is short. Demandred is tall.<br />-Is that enough?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 01:30:54
subject: <b>That, Ruriha...</b>
body:
Is plenty!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 01:31:47
subject: <b>I agree with Rasherei</b>
body:
I think that Demandred would slip up somewhere in dealing with Faile, Perrin and his wife.  He may be able to fool Rand and those that don't know him, but his daughter?  And what of all of the Saldean soldiers?  In LoC Faile immediately recognizes one of the men under Bashere's command as she and Perrin enter Caemlyn.  There is no way he could fool men long under the command of Bashere.  They would have been long under his comman as Bashere was not new to being Marshal General.  Plus, anytime one of the Forsaken tried to grab power, he/she assumed a previously unknown identity.  I think that trying to take over an already existing persona is too rash for one of the Forsaken.  Nice try though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />First among Asha'man<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />Slayer of Shadowspawn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Chihuahuabrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 08:00:43
subject: <b>Heh</b>
body:
This is the second topic I've seen today with 100% against it (although this one wasn't so bad, the ohter one was a big pile of crap).<br /><br />Right, that's it, I'm fed up of this whole Demandred thing. RJ says the clues are there, surely between us we can work it out. If we list everything we know about Demandred (peronality wise, height etc) and also all the hints that we have had as to where he is (such as the fact that apparently he with &quot;Dashiva&quot; was supposed to be keeping an eye on him, so when he went missing Demandred was annoyed). We can also list the places where he definitely isn't or even probably isn't to narrow it down. Then we can list who it is speculated he might be, but there is evidence against it (Bashere, Taim, Weiramon etc) so that people stop guessing them again and again.<br /><br />Hopefully if enough people contribute to this we can actually work out who Demandred is.<br /><br />I'll start by listing places where he almost definitely isn't (if you want to correct me or add moe, do, that's the whole point).<br /><br />With the tower AS (he's a man, Mesaana's there)<br />With the rebel AS (man, Halima)<br />With the Asha'man (Dashiva was there, why send two?)<br />With the Seanchan (Semirhage is there)<br />In Arad Doman (Graendal was there and it's no where near Rand)<br /><br />Let's figure this out finally!


created: 2001-10-30 11:20:56
subject: <b>You all know I can't resist this one</b>
body:
Especially since I have the two original &quot;Faile is a Darkfriend&quot; and &quot;Demandrashere&quot; theories out there right now. I really don't know who Demandred is posing as, but to me Bashere seems like the most likely suspect, so long as you can get around the illusion thing. I also believe Faile is a Darkfriend, and so Bashere's wife could also be a DF. And a powerful enemy deep within the good guy's ranks? Who could that possibly be if not Bashere? Weiramon is not deep within the good guy's ranks. I don't think Rand likes or trusts him at all. Who else could it be? Sheriam? She's not all that powerful. Halima? She's not all that deep, and everyone knows about her anyway. Who else has a position of power and could be suspect? Well? BASHERE IS THE ONLY ONE!!<br /><br />As to the above post, wondering where Demandred is or isn't, he is probably in Caemlyn, whoever he is. After all, it's the last place Rand would expect a Forsaken to be (Rahvin used to operate there, and Rand knows the Forsaken don't like to live too close to each other). There are only so many other places he might be. I will list them.<br /><br />With the Borderland armies.<br />With the Band of the Red Hand (unlikely, but possible).<br />Somewhere in Tear (BUT, we already know there was a Tairen <br />       High Lord DF, from TGH, so Demandred wouldn't really <br />       feel any need to be there, would he?)<br />Somewhere in Cairhien (but there aren't any likely suspects<br />       there, right?)<br /><br />Face it, folks, Demandred is almost certainly in Caemlyn, and the only powerful person in Caemlyn we might have reason to suspect is BASHERE!!!!<br /><br />Doesn't ANYONE agree with me?<br /><br />(Probably not, but that's okay. The less people who agree, the more people I can laugh at when I'm right, eh?)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 11:36:31
subject: <b>Great idea 3!!!!</b>
body:
These are basic facts of locales of frosaken(dead or alive)<br />In Illian.   (Sammael was strongly embedded there)<br />In Caemlyn.  (Rahvin planted himself there)<br />In Tanchico. (Moghedien was there in the past)<br />This is all merely for locale...<br />In Tear.     (Be'lal was there)<br /><br />Osan'gar was a subversive attempt by the DO to assassinate Rand.  It is possible, given that Taimandred could exist, that even the mighty Demandred would not recognize fully, Dashiva's power.  Taim was suspicious, and attempted on two different occasions to point Dashiva out to Rand, in order to warn him.  Demandred would want to keep Rand for himself and therefore would attempt to divert attention from himself to another, as well as eliminate competition.  This is an old argument, I know.  I'm just saying, that we cannot count the Black Tower out yet.  Although, it seems the development of Taim being a darkfriend was fairly simple, which does not lend himself to being Demandred.<br /><br />What about the Borderlands?  Or within the Whitecloaks?  I believe I heard someone mention that before... <br /><br />mauladala<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 11:53:27
subject: <b>Taimendred may live on yet!</b>
body:
Everybody knows the mountains of evidence regarding Pro Taimendred and tried to shoot it down by saying that Demandred did not recognize Flinn. This could be true. But wasn't Flinn (1) afraid to return to the Black Tower and (2) Rand worried that Darkfriends or indeed Forsaken existed there and would disrupt his cleansing plans.<br /><br />Could it be possible that Rand taught the Ashaman and Aes Sedai he trusted (at least partially) the weave of Illusion to confuse possible enemies. Take into account that the best form of illusion was that of similar features to the real person -this could explain why (1) Flinn still looked like an old man and (2) Demandred didn't recognized the Aes Sedai agelessness. Obviously it's pretty hard to hide the limp but couldn't this add just another bit of doubt to those who refuse to believe Demandred could be Taim<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-30 12:25:06
subject: <b>I hope a lot of people join in on this</b>
body:
Taim does indeed have the most evidence pointing toward him being Demandred, but the evidence against him is pretty strong. Firstly, the idea that Demandred wouldn't recognise Flinn because he'd been away so long is not very likely at all, Flinn was one of the first Asha'man recruited. Why would Flinn disguise himself behind a weave even if he did know it? It's not like the Aes Sedai where they possibly should have used a weave because the Forsaken may recognise their ageless faces. Plus, I don't have the book on me, but I seem to remember Demandred being surprised at the man's strength and then figuring out that he must be linked. If he was Taim the strentgh shouldn't have come as such a shock to him, some Asha'man are exremely strong. I also have no idea why the DO would send 2 Forsaken to the Asha'man.<br /><br />What I think we should be searching for is someone close to Rand (like Bashere). If you think about it this is DEFINITELY a place one of the Forsaken would have been assigned to. Originally Aginor was sent to the Asha'man as Dashiva and it's only by coincidence (or ta'vereness) that he ended up close to Rand. So he doesn't count. With that and the fact that comments have been made that Dashiva and Demandred were keeping an eye on Rand (not very well apparently) I think we can conclude that Demandred was sent to be close to Rand.<br /><br />So, what we are looking for is someone close to Rand around (and just before) the time Dashiva appeared on the scene. As Rand was attacked in Cairhien and Demandred has blamed Dashiva and the other idiots (or something like that) for that it is indeed likely that he is someone in Caemlyn. It cannot be anyone who has made contact with Rand between the times when he &quot;disappears&quot; and when demandred is angry 'cos he doesn't know where Rand is.<br /><br />To tell you the truth, this is sounding more and more like Bashere, it's just a pity the weaving lets that theory down. Are there any (unmarried) Aiel chiefs in Caemlyn?


created: 2001-10-30 13:56:15
subject: <b>to THREE IN A BOAT</b>
body:
you know, this is simply a theory.  there's now need to be calling anything crap, except maybe YOUR attitude.  there are many theories i've read that totally made no sense to me, but in no way did i diminish the author's attempt.  i admit the theory has gaps, but hello, if it didn't, it wouldn't be a theory.  i suggest everybody give out as many theories on where Dema is (and on anything else for that matter) and that way we can cover ALL the bases of anything we want to know concerning WOT.  if you, THREE IN A BOAT, are tired of hearing theories concerning where Dema is, then stop reading them.  at least i am here trying to ferret out info. and make sure that we don't miss ANY possible suspects.  a lot of the theories seem to view things along similar lines and i am simply trying to stand things on their head to check for something falling out of the cracks.  <br /><br />and by the way, ngallagher, you ask if anybody shares your views on bashere and faile?  well hello, you are only posting a note on MY theory that does jive with your reasoning.  so i guess I share your views.


created: 2001-10-30 14:56:28
subject: <b>Ermm</b>
body:
Here's what I said, &quot;This is the second topic I've seen today with 100% against it (although this one wasn't so bad, the ohter one was a big pile of crap).&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps you'd like to read it again. Apart from my rather awful spelling of other, I said your theory wasn't so bad. I said the other theory (about the wolfs/Ogiers) was crap. Which it is. I was merely mentioning that both theories had 100% by them (when I read it) and I don't often see that.<br /><br />I won't have a go at you for talking about my &quot;attitude&quot; as you thought I'd said something I hadn't. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that one of the most annoying things on the internet is when people don't read your posts correctly, especially when it leads to you being accused of something that isn't true as in this case.<br /><br />Right, back to the topic. I still don't agree with the theory, but upon further examination it is more likely than I at first thought it.


created: 2001-10-30 15:34:55
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Easy prince...easy.  I think you misunderstood.  No harm done... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 16:37:54
subject: <b>mayby demandred is a aial clan chif?</b>
body:
think about it, thay are the only pepole thet has no forseken in tham,<br />thay are tall, rand truse tham, thay are powerfule rank in randarmy, and rand donit know all of tha, to good. it got to be one of the 11 clan chif, becuse thay are the most storng man in aial society. now i suspect balal.<br />proof you ask?<br />who is in kamling- balal, who know that rabin is dead:  demandred and balal(he want to the ride on kamling) hakc, mayby he kild asmo too(yes i over doen it now  iknow)<br />plus, damandret(too much long of a name) was involve in domay well fight right, so who where there in the wells- the eiel.<br />if anyone can make this ball roling, do so. <br />mat the aialdemandrd theory begin!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 18:13:33
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
What was all that about? Anyway, I'll be reading up tonight to investgate the possibilty of an Aiel chief.


created: 2001-10-30 20:54:51
subject: <b>Proxies</b>
body:
Demandred doesn't have to be disguised as anybody.<br /><br />The man who knows him very well - Sammael - said he uses proxies. <br /><br />Like Lanfear he is probably flying about instructing Weiramon and Suroth.<br /><br />Bashere went against the Seanchan with 50 Ashaman (Flynn included) he would know by now that some of them are 'grizzled'<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-30 21:09:14
subject: <b>Demandred possibilities</b>
body:
You also have to take into account that, at the end of LoC, Demandred asks the DO if he's done well, and the DO says yes. So something that someone does during LoC (or at the very beginning of ACoS or end of TFoH, since the prologues and epilogues sometimes overlap) must include Demandred. I think that this was one of the main pro-Taimandred arguments, at one point. <br /><br />And, in the line of possible Asha'man who could be Demandred, you have to figure that any of the ones who fought at the end of WH are excluded, since he can't be in two places at once. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I have to reread LoC before I can really answer this, since the main things I remember from it are that Nynaeve Heals Logain and Dumai's Wells, but if anyone remembers any better than I am, LoC would probably be our biggest clue...<br /><br />Wouldn't it be funny if the 'great thing' Demandred did was kill Asmodean, and we're all stuck? But I think there was a reason against that somewhere. <br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-10-30 21:46:46
subject: <b>Some speculation</b>
body:
This is without checking the books, going on memory and what people have posted, so please don't shred too much.<br /><br />Basically, I'm putting up names that may be significant to the plot while fitting some possibilities, and going with a hunch of treachery.<br /><br />This is also understanding that he may certainly disguise himself both with the power and without, and doesn't he have possible access to 'inversion'? hiding the flows? Also, he could use the True power as a disguise, since others wouldn't recognize it (maybe). So...<br /><br />Masema.  Don't recall exact description, but he's undergone some definite changes and may be unrecognizeable. And is a borderlander, so the hooked nose thing could work. Plus, he's done some very productive damage for the DO while ostensibly 'supporting' Rand. And people -fear- him. Plus, no one's really seen him yet. He's always moving. That can explain Demandred's frequent visits to SG and elsewhere.<br /><br />Rhuarc. Just to be evil. don't really think it is, but we haven't heard squat about him lately.<br /><br />Bashere.  Yes, he's short, but disguise can do that. And his wife doesn't have to be 'in' on it...she could be compelled.  Morgase wasn't 'in' on it, either. Maybe Demandred is more subtle that Rahvin (highly likely, actually).<br /><br />Daved Whats-his-name.  Elayne's new guard.  He came out of nowhere. <br /><br />Juilan Sandar.  He's a minor character that's always around. He didn't fade out when Hurin did. <br /><br />Vanin.  Byrne's handy-man.  Again, disguise.  Talk about well-buried! Very, very competent. <br /><br />Tallanvor.  Because I'm an evil bastid and like picking underdogs. Tall, talented, seemingly non-consequential.<br /><br />Whatever that Jerk Whitecloak's name is. <br /><br />Galad :-)    He's 'too' good (and too talented).  He does things properly, which an evil person could do, but he doesn't do them 'good'.  He's very influential. He almost got in Egwene's skirt and maybe he takes over Berelain.  And he seems to leave trouble in his wake. Much can be explained away by channelling, and we know Demandred was very talented even without it (just as Lews Therin was). So maybe he's taking the 'tough' route and not relying on his channelling. Sneaky, too. No one would suspect a white cloak, would they?<br /><br />Yes, lots of these are wild speculation..&gt;I'm just offering up possibilities for people to examine and shoot down (I've dug my books out again, but haven't had a chance to re-read). <br /><br />Personally, the ones I like are Galad, Bashere and Masema.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-10-30 21:47:32
subject: <b>On Faile</b>
body:
I'm not going to comment just yet on Demandred being Bashere. Just one thing to note though, to the person who said Faile can't possibly be a darkfriend because she hasn't thought about the Dark One, isn't it possible that RJ just doesn't want us to know? I'm not saying she is definitely a darkfriend, I'd have to reread her point of views to see, but to say she can't be a darkfriend cause she didn't give herself away seems a bit like it's what you WANT to believe, and not necessarily the truth. Again, I'm not saying Faile is a darkfriend or that she isn't, but if you're going to say she isn't, please show which part of her Point of View says this without a doubt, and don't say she can't be because she didn't think to herself &quot;I'm a Darkfriend.&quot; The only real point of view of hers I remember right now was while she was with the Shaido Aiel, and I imagine she had other things on her mind at that point. If I'm wrong, please correct me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 21:56:04
subject: <b>Duhhh...</b>
body:
Sorry...forgot to add one of my primary suspects:<br /><br />Aram. FAR too good with a sword too soon for it to be an accident.  He's never around any A'shaman, so he wouldn't be discovered...and he's tied to one of the T'avaren.


created: 2001-10-30 22:34:26
subject: <b>Hmm... some interesting stuff here.</b>
body:
First off I think the reason that Faile has been shown from her various POV's to be a non-dark friend is that she is always thinking of wanting to help Perrin in his struggles and help other people (like the group of wisdoms). There's been nothing in her nature giving hints, much less POV's saying so.<br /><br />   Any theory has to be based on fact. So far there aren't any that corroborate Faile being a dark friend.<br /><br />   Now onto the better kaf pot:<br /><br />   Info on Demandred:<br /><br />   Moridin said that he and Osangar were supposed to be watching Rand closely. Note SUPPOSED TO be. That doesn't necessarily mean that he got in close enough.<br /><br />   If he's one of the dragon sworn or the white cloaks then his plans to get close to Rand failed, but he caused enough chaos to make Shaitan happy. In fact it'd make sense that he's with the those two because one of the Forsaken was thinking about the fact that events to the south had his style of touch.<br /><br />  If he was the prophet or one of the prophets disciples then he'd have a good reason to have not gotten close yet. Just some fodder.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 22:34:52
subject: <b>The other place he might be...?</b>
body:
Ghealdan. With Masema. Working through a proxy. Waiting for Rand to just 'bump into him' (or whatever the quote is).<br /><br />It's about the only place that's been almost constantly chaotic since (hmm.. let's think for a moment here...) THE THIRD BOOK IN THE SERIES!! caused by 'dragonsworn' doesn' that seem to tie in with 'letting the Lord of Chaos Rule'.<br /><br />Surprisingly (not), none of the other Forsaken have taken it upon themselves to make a move into Ghealdan. It's about the only place that hasn't had a Forsaken obviously trying to control it, which means that the man who stays in the shadows and is willing to play the odds (hmm, like seeming to back the man he's trying to defeat) is likely to be living there.<br /><br />Can we (please?) give up on the (unlikely) prospect of Demandred being someone who's illusioned themself into very close proximity to Rand- especially Doh'braindead, De'manbasher and Taimandred, they just aren't valid options.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 00:34:59
subject: <b>Why Taim is not Demandred(not from WH either)</b>
body:
This is in response to the people who said that Taimandred will live on.  I ahve yet to see a counter argument for this.  When Perrin was at Dumai's Wells, he smeels a majority of things from Taim, NONE of which is HATRED.  When he is around Bornhald that is ALL he can smell, and I am sure Demandred's hate is even more intense than that.  So why didn't Perrin smell it?  Keep in mind this is in A crown of Swords, BOOK SEVEN.  Please explain how Taim can POSSIBLY be Demandred.  The Nose knows<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 05:02:18
subject: <b>I really like Aielmandred</b>
body:
I do (even though user, who first proposed it, fell asleep while typing). The only bad Aiel we've seen are the Shaido (and they've just got their heads up their butts) and Melindhra (you know, Mat's girl with the knife?). None of the ones following Rand have proven to be evil yet, and I'm not willing to believe their entire nation (minus the Shaido) is completely loyal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-31 07:08:09
subject: <b>Hey!</b>
body:
I suggested the Aiel chief, not that drunk guy!<br /><br />On to shooting down that big list of characters.<br /><br />Rhuarc (even though you weren't serious). I doubt it as he has a dreamer for a wife and even if she was being compelled, she might see things in his dreams. Also, surely it'd be risky to compell someone while close to Rand so often, if she's anything like Morgase she'll need compelling regularly and there's the possibilty Rand will sense saidan where it shouldn't be.<br /><br />Bashere. See the above on compelling. Also, there are great risks using a weaved disguise that makes you that much shorter, what if someone tries to touch his head for some reason and finds it's a lot higher than they thought. Also in battle it's very dangerous, when of your men might think they're swinging their sword over your head at the enemy, but actually slice through you.<br /><br />Daved. Not very likely at all. Why would Demandred allow that woman darkfriend to tell him what to do?<br /><br />Juilin. We've seen nothing to indicate this, he's never near Rand.<br /><br />Vanin. Once again I haven't seen anything to indicate this and he isn't ever arounf Rand either. The way he has fallen for Elayne too seems a bit unlikely for a Chosen.<br /><br />Tallanvor. Got to be the least likely yet, in what way has he even attempted to come in contact with Rand? There are plenty of reasons it's not Tallanvor, I won't list them all here.<br /><br />&quot;that Jerk Whitecloak&quot;. Not sure who you're talking about here.<br /><br />Galad. Galad's been around doing the right thing since the first book (and before that if you see what Elayne says), Demandred wasn't even free then.<br /><br />Masema. The interesting one. The only thing I can point to as evidence against this is that he refuses to allow the One Power to be used to get him to Rand quicker, when surelt that would be what he wants if he is supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand.<br /><br />Aram. He seems far too devouted to Perrin and Faile for Demandred. I also suspect that anyone so close to Perrin who is a disguised Forsaken would certainly give off smells that Perrin would worry about. Aram has given no indication of this from what I remember.<br /><br />Lord Savaunt, it actually wasn't Moridin who spoke of what Demandred and Osan'gar should have been doin at all, it was Aran'gar and the quote is: '&quot;You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar,&quot; she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. &quot;You, and Demandred&quot;.' So as you can see, it was their responsibility, not something that they simply should have been doing. This suggests they were sent there by Moridin/the DO and they aren't likely to disobey either, at least nto as openly as defying an order like that.<br /><br />The idea that Deamndred is working through proxies is interesting. It would mean that Demandred is simply Demandred (although he might disguise himself every so often to talk to his proxies) and this debate is pointless.


