# w_comment

created: 2002-12-12 07:46:31
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
First off, I WAS going to say that I also like Faile, but because several others have actually COMPETED for that prize, I will show some modesty.<br />Anyway, Perrin talks to wolves, and Faile talked to her mother, and at least the latter involved Tips on Conception and Birthing. <br />Ahem. Perrin seems to me an extremely virile young man, and in favor of Faile I would say she's not that sterile either. And about the fact that Rand is a stronger ta'veren, no matter how far he is away, he still has a 'pull'. This affects things like two-headed calves, barely injured three-story-fallers, and glass that refuses to shatter when it strikes the pavement. It also kills people who would never have died otherwise. A sperm is half a person, obviously, so it could be that Rand's ta'veren effect is buffering Perrin's chances.<br />AND there's the fact that early pregnancy doesn't yet look like there's a herd of watermelons hiding under someone's dress.<br /><br />PS Maybe Demandred has sown seeds of chaos in the form of little pills hidden in Faile's food.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-04 18:00:38
subject: <b>The Seed of Perrin</b>
body:
Ok just to start out...i like Faile but she can get a little annoying sometimes...And the theory that She is pregnant while with the Aiel is a very satisfying idea but I think that Perrin may have scored a hit only a week or two before she was captured so even Faile would not know for some time. I also like the idea of a complete wolf-hell-war on the Shaido (sp?) when he finds out about Faile's little secret. I feel it would be very satisfying to see Sevannah (sp?) get her throat ripped out. (i have never liked her)<br /><br />I also think that Perrin's wolf-ness would do something wierd to the chances of Faile having twins...since wolves commonly have more than one cub at a time...so Faile may be carrying more than one kid around. I guess we will find out when CoT comes out. And who knows, Elyas may become something like their Godfather. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Golden eyes Glowing in the Night<br />The smell of Blood<br />Hangs in the misty air<br />Young Bull crouches<br />Awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-02 18:19:57
subject: <b>the Wolf Dream</b>
body:
It didn;t really sound liek a &quot;prediction&quot; to me so much as a blessing... it sounds like somehitng a Wolf would say, u kno kind of like, &quot;may you bear many sons,&quot;, &quot; YOur first child will be a masculine child&quot;... etc... <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~g~<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/25087.gif" /><br /><i><font face="Trebuchet MS"><font color="FF00FF">C</font><font color="FF11FF">r</font><font color="FF22FF">a</font><font color="FF33FF">z</font><font color=" FF44FF ">e</font><font color=" FF55FF ">d</font><font color=" FF66FF ">W</font><font color=" FF77FF ">e</font><font color=" FF88FF ">a</font><font color=" FF99FF ">se</font><font color=" FFCCFF ">l</font></font></i><br /><br /><i>&quot;Do not waste time bothering whether you &quot;love&quot; your neighbor; act as if you did...When you are behaving as if you loved someone you will presently come to love him.&quot;</i>-- <b>C. S. Lewis</b></font><p><a href="http://web.mac.com/thapymptress" target="_blank">What I've been up to</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 13:42:47
subject: <b>LMAO!</b>
body:
This is too funny. XD  Interesting theory you have there, and that is true about Rand and Elayne, but keep in mind what Min said about how if Elayne didn't drink a certain kind of tea or something she would get pregnant.  Perhaps Faile is drinking this tea to keep herself from getting pregnant too?


created: 2003-06-18 07:20:26
subject: <b>Re: liking Faile</b>
body:
A lot have people have already said they like Faile. Nice to know. I'm going one better, and saying that I love her. (see below).<br />And by the way, I think she will have children asap. And hopefully at least one will be named Mandarb.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 17:06:54
subject: <b>babies</b>
body:
Judging by the jacket of the next book I'll say she has one in the oven. and seeing as her last POV was at 22 days she would not have shown signs but now at day 32 morning sickness would have kicked in w/ a missed period, so next time her POV comes up i think we'll know for certain. just on the bel thing maybe Rolan will be taken gai'shan and bel will fall madly in love w/ him a bit loony but hey


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nature of Heroes</b>
body:
Isn't the nature of heroes that they fight the good fight?  I don't think it can be possible for them to fight for the Dark One at all, the only people who could do that would be the 'Villains of the Horn'.  <img src="images/smile.gif" /><p>The only thing that the DO can control about the horn is when and where the heores come, of if they come at all, and that's by having the horn in his possession.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Phil<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Moderate Rock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hawkwing/Dragon and the Horn</b>
body:
Actually this reply has nothing to do with the Fain stuff, but more on the Horn theory. I read about LTT and the banner being needed to command the Heroes of the Horn, and I agreed on that part, but...... (of course, no response without a but <img src="images/wink.gif" />) <br />after rereading TGH Hawkwing and LTT/Rand have a little chat before they go off kicking Seanchans back in the sea, and Hawkwing clearly states that he has fought besides LTT numerous times, but even more often against him. How could this be possible if they have to follow LTT without question? Perhaps the Horn can after all be used by John Doe the Horn Blower to summon the hero's?


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Heros for DO</b>
body:
<img src="images/aessedai.gif" />I believe an AS (Moirane on Verin) said thet the heros will not necessarily fight fot the light, just whoever has the horn.  I haven't read the series recently, but i think is is in the 1st or 2nd book. <img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>The dragon and the horn</b>
body:
Hawking states cleary that when summoned by the horn they must follow the banner and the dragon. Now about Hawking about fighting with and against LTT, whose to say their souls for lack of another word were not inhabiting  bodies at the same time during another age, fought as the wheel wills.


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hawking</b>
body:
Hawking never says that they have to follow the banner all the time.  If they did, he wouldnt have gotten all confused and then said," Something is missing."  I think that if it was a requirement for them to ride with the banner, they would have automatically made sure it was there.  As such, i feel that the banner is not a requirement for the heroes.  I believe that the pattern forced this on them strictly for this occasion, so that Rand would be revealed as the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A logical progression on the timeline<br />The seperation narrowed down to a fine line<br />To blur the edges so they blend together properly<br />Take you on an audible odyssey<br /><br />Its Goin Down</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Horn</b>
body:
Hi!<p>Could it not be that the Horn can be sounded by anyone, but if the banner is present then they must follow it?</p><p>EJL</p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Dark One</b>
body:
I'm sure some of you were aware of this, but just in case you were not aware, Shai'tan means 'satan'in Arabic. Mwaha. It's true, too. More evidence that RJ gets his ideas from every religion. <img src="images/devil.gif" />


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>A Little Wack</b>
body:
Allright, I admit this is "A Little Wack", but what if who blows the horn influences which heroes/villians show up. Maybe if someone in the Light blows the horn, the heroes we have already seen show up, but if a Darkfriend blows <br />it those heroes "souls" show up, but from lives in which they were turned to the shadow. I don't know how this fits with Birgitte's info on The Dream World being where the heroes wait to be spun out, but it is an idea.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Gunboat Diplomacy</b>
body:
Well, I don't agree with the theory that the Fainmeister can overwhelm such a huge power such as the Dark One.  The Dark One's power is too massive.  We're talking about a BB-gun and a missile launcher, it just aint gonna happen.  The taint can be much more easily overcome by mashadar/shadar logoth because it is just a function of the dark one and lacks are the strong properties of the Dark One.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fain & The DO</b>
body:
It would seem odd to me that Fain would have such vendetta toward the DO. He seems to have transferred his feelings of hate for the DO to the three ta'veren. And for the time being he seems to be much more interested in causing Rand grief. After EotW he does mention getting back at Ba'alzamon for what was done to him, yet none of those plans have come to fruition. And in my opinion it seems rather far fetched that Fain would "attack" the DO -- I mean he IS a god.  Even if he manifested himself in corporeal form, through an Avatar or some such, would he not still command the powers of darkness? I don't know that Fain is crazy enough to challenge a god.<p>And concerning the Horn: the heroes are bound to it, not the banner -- all things being equal they would much rather fight for the side with the banner, but Jordan seems rather explicit on this point -- whosoever sounds the horn commands those who are bound to it. </p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RTWL<br />If you meet Buddha on the road - kill him.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fain is completly nuts</b>
body:
Fain is crazy enough to attack the dark one, but its not going to happen.  If he does survive to the last battle (which I doubt, he keeps going after Rand and if you play with fire you are going to get burned eventualy) he is going to go after Rand not the DO.  <p>As for the horn Aes Sedai keep saying that they must follow the horn, not anyone who knows anything.  I mean lets face it, they are all idiots.  They say that something is impossible and then it happens.  I think that the heroes must obey whoever blew the horn, but they must also have a dragon banner (any banner, not neccessarily the one Rand got first) with them. It does not matter if they people who call him actualy follow that banner, just that they have it. <img src="images/jester.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mat and the horn</b>
body:
Mat has blown the horn so therefore he is the only one who can blow it again.  Unless he turns to the shadow anyone else blowing the horn would be useless.<br />The references are in the first 2 books about only 1 person blowing the horn.  I dont remember where but.<p>Squocka<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Heroes of the Horn will fight for whoever sounds the Horn.</b>
body:
Okay people you obviously need to reread "The Great Hunt" as Verin very pointedly mentions that the horn will summon the heroes to fight for whoever sounds the horn, wether they fight on the side of the creator or the Dark One. <br />   And contrary to Namprop's suggestion, the horn is linked to the Dragon Reborn through legend, but it is actually stated they will fight for the caller not the Dragon, and would have to fight against the Dragon if sounded by one of the forsaken.


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>A Certain Familiar Game . . .</b>
body:
<br />Sounds just like the "Capture the Fisher" game.  Complex, and really depends not on who blows the Horn, but who possesses the Fisher!


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ah yes the Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Well since Verin said the Horn will call the heroes to fight for whom ever blows it we can't argue against that. Everyone knows that Aes Sedai are never wrong.<p>   I mean what's next people are going to suggest that Traveling will come back into use? Or that Ter'Angreal will be made again? I think not. We also know that you certainly can't unravel the flows of a weave, and that only sheilding can block someone from using the one power. I mean sure suggesting such blasphemy as the Heroes of the Horn having to follow the Dragon and the Banner (even if one of the ignorant heroes seems to have that warped notion) isn't as silly as saying, ... oh I don't that stilling or gentling could ever be healed. It's still pretty ridiculous though.</p><p>   Aes Sedai are never ever wrong. Just ask them and they'll tell ya straight out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-02 10:56:47
subject: <b>The Horn, the Banner, and the Dragon</b>
body:
Several things...<br /><br />First, the Heroes ALL know that Rand is LTT. Birgitte's comment that he always chooses women who cause him trouble, Hawkwings several comments (...&quot;you could tell them, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh&quot;...&quot;I have fought beside you times without number, Lews Therin, and have faced you as many more&quot;...&quot;I know you, if you do not know yourself&quot;...&quot; Hawkwing was staring at Rand during each of those comments.<br /><br />Now, the passage that answers the rest.<br /><br />His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. &quot;Something is wrong here. Something holds me.&quot; Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. &quot;You are here. Have you the banner?&quot; A murmur ran through those behind him.<br />  &quot;Yes.&quot; Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.<br />  &quot;The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,&quot; Artur Hawkwing said. &quot;You are here. The banner is here. The weave of the moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.&quot;<br />  &quot;Burn me,&quot; Mat breathed. &quot;It's true. Burn me!&quot;<br /><br />Hawkwing saying he had fought beside as well as against Lews Therin so many times is a reference to lives in the flesh, something that those bound to the Pattern can see clearly while they are 'between lives'. Birgitte proves this, by slowly losing the memories of past lives once she is in the flesh, torn from the Pattern's hold. Rand, being a new incarnation of an old soul, doesn't remember, but being the Dragon, he will begin to remember. Perhaps this event, one out of the ordinary to a normal life, helps pull Lews Therin's personality into the open.<br /><br />All that aside, the heroes MUST follow the banner. That can't possibly be clearer. It doesn't matter who sounded the Horn. Until the heroes saw the Dragon and his banner, they felt constrained against action. Once they had the banner in sight, the murmurs among them rose. They were ready.<br /><br />That leaves Verin's statement that those called by the Horn will fight for whoever sounds it, whether they fight on the side of the Creator or the Dark One.(Paraphrased) Obviously, Verin is either mistaken, or this is the first hint that she is attempting to misdirect people. Early in TGH, she does admit that things even Aes Sedai believe may well turn out to be incorrect, a very uncommon admission for an Aes Sedai, or any woman for that matter.<br /><br />One last thing. Several posts say that the heroes obey the sounder of the Horn. Never once do any of the heroes even look to Mat, speak to him, or do anything that might be considered obeying him. They speak with Rand alone, and move once the banner is raised by Perrin on a makeshift staff. It is known that they are aware that Mat sounded the Horn, since Birgitte acknowledges him as Hornsounder when Mat realizes who she is in Ebou Dar. So the sounder of the Horn isn't so important to the heroes.<br /><br />Since this thread was begun with Fain, I'll include that he was never after the Horn, only the dagger. Taking the Horn was icing to him, no more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-10 17:32:38
subject: <b>Maybe....</b>
body:
Maybe it Fain is in a way attacking the dark one. Many of us believe that the DO needs the Dragon turned to his service in order to take over the pattern, or else have an extremely tough time actually taking over the world.  Perhaps Fain knows this, and in his pain and suffering, sees that if he kills Rand, the DO will loose. If he sees this, maybe this would be his way of seeking revenge on the DO. Just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 22:12:02
subject: <b>fain versus the DO my butt</b>
body:
okay lets think about this.  What are the chances of a 2 year old child with a plastic knife killing a friggin tank?  nill.  Fain wouldn't presume so much as to attack the DO, even if he is completely insane. A gnat trying to strangle a T-Rex.  The dark one is immense in his power.  In either bk2 or 3, it says that there are infinite alternate worlds.  In each of these worlds exists the same creator and dark one.  Also in each of these worlds, the dark one is sealed up.  For those of you who think rand will destroy the dark one once and for all, forget it.  he is too powerful.  he is a god.  He can, however, shut away his influence in this world.  I believe rand will do just that.  not kill the DO, but seal him away again.  <br /><br />Fain vs. DO...bwahahahha<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 19:53:27
subject: <b>Hmmmmm</b>
body:
It seems to me that the Heroes will usually follow whoever sounds the horn, but if the Dragon is there, then they must follow him instead.  This is why the force holding them back was not familiar, and why Hawkwing said &quot;you are here, you have the banner?&quot; as in, if the Dragon is there, with the banner, then they must follow him.<br /><br />Shadar Aman<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Shadow Dragon, or Dragon's Shadow? You tell me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />He Who Bathes With Twilight<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />Watcher of the Sea Lions<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 19:21:57
subject: <b>Sorry, but this theory is crap.</b>
body:
#1: Neither Fain nor anyone else will kill the Dark One. It just won't happen. The Dark One is a basic elemental force in the universe, evil balancing good. If the Dark One were killed, the whole pattern would probably just up and unravel on the spot. If the Creator merely sealed The Dark One away at the moment of creation, why would anyone think piddly Fain, or even extra powerful Choeden Kal suffused Rand could do so?<br /><br />#2: I think it's still an open question whether the Heroes will follow the Hornsounder or the Dragon. While the Heroes didn't pay much attention to Mat, they certainly fought on his side. Note: It is also an open question whether or not Mat is still the Hornsounder (remember, he did die once.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 16:02:57
subject: <b>Horn and Forsaken</b>
body:
It would be pretty ridiculous if the Heroes did not follow, in some fashion at least, whoever sounds the horn.<br />If not, that would be like a Forsakon sounding the horn, the undead heroes coming back, and slaughtering him.


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>that sounds right...</b>
body:
maybe it's an AOL party device?<p>like a 'Drunkstick' or something?</p><p>you channel into it and go nuts.</p><p>just an idea...</p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Go Rod!!</b>
body:
The Rod is obviously one of the Nine Rods of Domination!!<br />It is the weapon of ultimate destruction and was not used during the war of power because its powers were too darn awesome!<br />Imagine pointing that weapon on an advancing Trollock army, disgusting but effective.<p>Or using it on the DO himself. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>joy buzzer</b>
body:
no no...this would rather have been something on the order of a "joy buzzer".  you know the kind, strap to your hand and shake the hand of another.   <p>You hand this rod to a friend, perhaps with a note attached, "Channel into me!"</p><p>hahaha</p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>About that rod....</b>
body:
Ok so it has been suggested that it is in fact on of the Nine Rods of Dominion.<br />Every wand,rod etc. which are mentioned usually are accepted as one of theese.<br />This is in fact somehow connected to the Power. Hence it is very likely on of the Rods.<br />Remember we do not know what they are actually supposed to do...and using them wrong <br />would probably have some very interesting results.<br />Also I was thinking about the Oath Rod (one of the Nine?), it "requires" (i.e. that's always been used) Spirit.<br />What would happen if fire was chenneled through it? Naked Aes Sedai dancing on the tables?<br />Very likely. Hmmm this is becoming a theory soon...<br />Umm...better stop now...


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Gypsy Rose Lee Rod.</b>
body:
What could be better.  Just channel a little fire into it and your off doing the Sa'sara.  In the Common room of the nearest Inn.  Hope she made some coin, nothing worse than not getting paid for Table dance. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Barsoomian <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Peace favor your sword! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Tai'shar Wheel of timer's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> May you find Shade and Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Dirty Theory</b>
body:
Snooping around on the Net there has been a lot of discussion on what exactly that rod did. They're calling it the Orgasmatron -- and that Elayne might have used it with Rand whilst Min, Birgette, & Avi got blitzed to drown out the feelings coming across the bound.  Don't think it has anything to do with the Rods of Dominion (or not with that particular kind of Domination).  <img src="images/devil.gif" /><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RTWL<br />If you meet Buddha on the road - kill him.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 20:28:50
subject: <b>Also about two months.</b>
body:
Earlier Birgitte had said she would welt Elayne so she couldn't sit down for a month, if she had to find forkroot to do it. When Rand did what ever he did to make Elayne and by extension, Birgitte, nearly fall over, she said the &quot;Two months&quot; bit, as if she felt one month would not be enough punishment.  By the way, what did Rand do, specificly? That sounds more useful than all the channeling, weaponry and karate lessons he's demonstrated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 18:51:24
subject: <b>sorry, no sense atall</b>
body:
While most people may wish it so, and while it may be so, I don't personally think RJ had that in mind while writing.  It COULD be, and I'd thought of it before (peripherally) but it really makes no sense.  It's more likely to be almost anything else, or some kind of inside joke.  It's not like they record every single conversation that ever takes place during the entire series.


created: 2002-05-06 17:19:47
subject: <b>seems to me...</b>
body:
maybe i'm totally missing something here, but i always thought that comment by birgitte was in reference to the time that elayne got really drunk at some tavern. now, i cant remember off the top of my head, but i know that happened. anyone know what i'm talking about here?


created: 2002-06-28 06:43:54
subject: <b>Drunk Princess</b>
body:
Elayne got drunk in Tanchico listening to Thom Merrillin in the Chapter called A Glass of Wine or something close.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 06:45:40
subject: <b>Woops !!</b>
body:
Forgot the book.<br />It`s in The Shadow Rising.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 04:57:09
subject: <b>That would be cool</b>
body:
Maybe she did that and made a lot of money, but Aviendha and Birgitte took it, and that's why they won't tell her about it.


created: 2002-09-27 13:15:40
subject: <b>ewwwwwwwwww</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>(2) Where can I get my hands on one? This little puppy would be sure to liven up any atmosphere. <br /></b></font> from BadAsh<br /><br />*keeps picturing Bad Ash dancing naked on tables*<br /><br />*tears off an eyeball and randomly place it on a scale...*<br /><br />Hey!!! I just fulfilled a prophecy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy frenchman extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 17:51:19
subject: <b>Elayne's embarrassment</b>
body:
I agree with this theory because from re-reading the scene in TPOD it seems likely that Elayne did do something envolving taking of her clothes and doing some kind of dance.  And seeing how Birgitte and Elayne share feeling, Birgitte must have felt what Elayne was doing with Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 00:46:45
subject: <b>The Red Rod is an inside joke for TWOTRPG players.</b>
body:
From the Encyclopedia WOT entry:<br /><font size="-1"><b>A ter'angreal in the form of a wrist-thick red rod about a foot long. It feels firm rather than hard and feels even warmer than ter'angreal normally do. The red rod is activated by Fire. It creates visual and aural illusions, but <i>if the user is unwary it may put her to sleep and broadcast her fantasies and dreams.</i></b></font><br /><br />Obviously one of Elayne's fantasies involves dancing on a table?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-11 11:01:18
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Wasn't there another rod that the Forsaken had that was like it? Or am I being delusional again?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 00:54:06
subject: <b>&quot;Dance on a table&quot; might be a red herring</b>
body:
Obviously, the comment Birgitte makes states her intention to embarrass Elayne by getting drunk enough to reduce Elayne's inhibitions.  She would not have seemed drunk, since she does not suffer physical or mental impairment, and would not have smelled of alcohol, obviously, and if Rand had noticed anything odd about her behaviour, he was not likely to be upset or question his good fortune.<br /><br />By the way, it seems like hardly any time elapsed between &quot;Two months&quot; and Birgitte's and Min's realization that Rand is ready for another go-round.  If he can knock a Hero of the Horn (with a thousand lifetimes of experience in her head) off her feet at second hand, and be...up for it again THAT fast, it would go a long way toward explaining why Aviendha is so nice to Rand (relatively speaking) after the Far Snows part.


created: 2007-01-12 06:24:27
subject: <b>The Nine Rods of Dominion</b>
body:
The rod was not one of the Nine Rods of Dominion, and neither is the Oath Rod, or the rod sa'angreal that the AS used to heal Mat.  RJ said somewhere that the Nine Rods of Dominion were regional governors.  So &quot;summon the Nine Rods of Dominion&quot; means bascically that you are the top power in the AoL.


created: 2008-05-07 12:11:44
subject: <b>Red Rod</b>
body:
My gues is what Elyane 2broadcasted&quot; misgth be that she was desperate enough to dance naked for Rand in full public wiev. As Min stated the three of the would fall helplessy and completly in love with Rand.<br /><br />Just a thogth


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Another World</b>
body:
Hi!<p>I agree that it is *highly* unlikely that other dimensions or outer space or alternate universes etc will be covered (at least in a major way).</p><p>But the alternate paths shown in TGH do not, to me, automatically mean that the Dragon has *never* turned. They were about Rands possible lives, and not the lives of those in previous turnings.</p><p>But the Dragon turning would be a major break from most of the accepted history. Whether the Wheel would be able to correct for that is debatable.</p><p>That is, after all, what ta'veren is for.</p><p>EJL</p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Argh...</b>
body:
I mean, come on, why should I take the time to respond to this theory...oh, yeah, because I have nothing to<br />do right now.  Oh, I suppose I'll go re-read the part where Mat uses his phaser on the klingons...


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Actually....</b>
body:
Lanfear mentioned something to rand about Aes Sedai being able to travel to different worlds (or was it Moghedien...i forget).  Anyway, this is kinda interesting because if there were people living on these other worlds, they might have come through the breaking better than Randland did.  If there were Aes Sedai, they might not have lost all the things that were lost during the breaking.  While it sounds very unlikely since only the mainland is going to be involved in the story (or so RJ says), it might be interesting if he does something later with this.  Ok, I've been rambling too long<p><img src="images/aessedai.gif" />Narishma<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br />What you have just said is one of the most idiotically insane things I've ever heard.  At no point in your incoherent ramblings did you say anything which even closely resembled a rational thought, and everyone here is now dumber for having</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Forget Sci-Fi</b>
body:
Like Bad Ash said, the action will take place on Randland (sic), not in some fancy other dimension... I tought this concept died with the eighties...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>not possible</b>
body:
first hundreds of yers of researching would be required<br />second taking peoples from other dimensions seems a little too far away<br />i think the shadow would have brought thousands of channelers that way if possible....i just don´t think it´s possible or going to happen<br />but that is my opinion only of course


created: 2001-09-12 23:32:49
subject: <b>Never say never..</b>
body:
The Dragon could very well have fought for the Shadow.  As it states in TGH, page 661, Hawkwing spoke this:<br />&quot;I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more.&quot;  That to me says that either a) Hawkwing had turned to the Shadow, or b) LTT was brought to the Shadow, which, I think, seems most likely.  But in this...  I am just saying..  never is a very strong word.


created: 2001-11-09 18:39:57
subject: <b>the dragon has turned to the dark side</b>
body:
in the second book, hawking says that the soul of the dragon has fought with him and fought against him.  the dragon turning to the dark side would not end the wheel.<br /><br />check the great hunt<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 16:34:20
subject: <b>other ages</b>
body:
It is entirely possible that when Hawkwing and The Dragon's souls fought together and/or opposed each other, it could have been in Ages where their respective roles weren't so crucial.  Their souls could have been in bodies numerous times when the Dark One was not free, i mean, we are only seeing the Third Age here, assuming the AoL was the second Age, that still leaves 5 ages for them to be fighting in.  Maybe he didn't fight for the shadow, maybe they were just opposing generals somewhere in ages 4-7.  If we assume the Third Age started with the Breaking, then that Age in itself lasted 3000 years.  If thats the average time an Age lasts, that would give them a good 15000 years worth of incarnations to fight.


created: 2002-09-25 19:21:58
subject: <b>Otherworld</b>
body:
That comment about people in the Age of Legends being able to travel to other worlds (also mentioned by Moghedien to Nynaeve in the Panarch's Museum) is certainly intriguing. Surely there must have been colonies established on other worlds among the stars. If so, they would have escaped the Breaking (even if their male Aes Sedai went mad as well). Wouldn't these colonies be concerned about the loss of contact with Earth/the mother world? Wouldn't that concern drive them into sending someone to check out Earth? Unless, the loss of the mother world made the colonies unable to support themselves enough to send anyone across space...<br /><br />Also...there must be surviving (and functioning) relics of the Age of Legends floating around in space somewhere, perhaps on the Moon and on Mars...we may never know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>I agree (mostly)...</b>
body:
It would make sense that Rand would either need to be healed fully before the final showdown; his fighting ability has been shown to be more and more messed up by his various wounds and Power troubles.  Plus, the colors could be some type of flows (Spirit?) used to transfer Rand's soul into Logain.  Or, instead of Rand simply stealing his body, the two could switch, leaving Logain's mind in Rand's body and vice-versa.  <p>The only thing that logically keeps this from happening is the fact that Rand is much stronger in the Power than Logain, and the Dragon needs all the power he can get to fight the Dark One himself.  Although, you could argue that one's soul is what determine's one's strength in the Power...after all, it has been pointed out many times that Lews Therin looks totally different from Rand but both seem to be equally matched in terms of strength in the Power.</p><p>An interesting theory, regardless <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p><p><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>i dunno, kind of a stretch</b>
body:
if rand needed the kind of edge you're talking about, he could just cast an inverted mask of mirrors.  i can see him faking his own death(he's done it once before), and i think that adds up a little better.


created: 2001-03-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just Who is Lews Therin, Anyway?</b>
body:
This theory highlights some things I've been wondering for a while now. The name "Lews Therin" is intentionally derived from "Lucifer". The name itself is a translation of "son of the morning star" in Hebrew (sounds like "Lord of the Morning" to me); when the Bible was translated into Latin, St. Jerome translated the phrase as "Lucifer", who was the Roman god of the morning (i.e., the "bringer of light"). Modern scholars don't think the phrase is a reference to the devil. <img src="images/devil.gif" /><p>So what does this have to do with the theory posted? Well, is he still Lews Therin the Dragon in another body? What if Ishamael takes his body to sow confusion (and is the "third destroyer") in the Last Battle? Could the "Dragon" take on negative connotations in the next cycle because of something like that? "How you have fallen from the heavens, Lucifer!" - Isaiah 14:12, as part of his prophecies.</p><p>And if Rand takes on Logain's body, we have to pause over the meaning of "Logain". The "Word of God" made flesh in the New Testament is Christ, and in the original Greek the "Word" is "Logos". "Logos" has a lot of other meanings, too, the most significant being a ratio or something that CONNECTS two things. Like Rand's soul and this world. Logain even looks a lot like we imagine Jesus looking, doesn't he? So couldn't it be that the Logos will fight the Dragon and win a victory for good? <img src="images/angel.gif" /></p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font></p><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>VERY nice, but i don't buy it</b>
body:
Good thinking, but in my opinion you used some viewings and left others unresolved.<p>For statrers, Rand is AIEL, not some caucasian dark-haired hero. How could the Aiel be the People of the Dragon if the Dragon is not Aiel anymore?</p><p>then there's tha matter of multiple personnalities. Rand is Lews Therin is Rand is Lews Therin... but not Logain. The Chosen (sorry, Forsaken <img src="images/tongue.gif" />) recognize rand as The Dragon just by seing him.</p><p>Good, but not right, I think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>People of the Dragon from the age of legends</b>
body:
they were named the people of the dragon in the age of legends or before.  I doubt that the name would have lasted all the way around from this age to the Age of Legends.  Rand could become a non aiel and the aiel would still be the people of the dragon (although I don't buy him taking Logain's body)


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>sorry i´ll not buy that</b>
body:
no that will not happen<br />how should it happen?<br />should the dark one help them with the task?=)<br /><img src="images/wink.gif" />=


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>A better idea?</b>
body:
I think that Logain and Rand will devise a trap for Taim, in which Taim thinks he has killed Rand and declares himself (in one way or another) and Logain springs the trap, whether with Rands help or not, and kills Taim taking over the leadership and purging the Black Tower of Darkfriends (or most of them). Also I think that Rand will eventually be Healed by Nynaeve AND Flinn (the two best healers from the Male and Female side of the source in the world), as Jordan constantly repeats the best feats of the age of Legends required both Male and Female channelers.


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Can't do the dirty deed</b>
body:
Well since the only ones we've seen taking over the bodies of others, or meging with people into almalgamated forms are the bad guys it would seem that the good guys cant do this. If they use the methods of evil then they are no better than those they fight.<p>   I could of course be wrong. Perhaps Jordan could set it up that way and then go on to prove my point. In which case I would of course be gloating for ages to come.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
Good work<p>I think that you are right. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></p><p>I may be wrong here- but Rand keeps on seeing 2 faces, one he thinks is LTT and another that he cant recognise. Because I agree with your theory, maybe the other face is Logain's.</p><p>Sort of like Past Present and Future<br />             LTT, Rand and Logain</p><p>Also, LTT keeps saying all 3 are destructive. Before he was caught and gentled, wasnt Logain a menace to society? <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 22:44:53
subject: <b>Lews/Rand/Logain</b>
body:
An interesting idea posed, but I think the vision is more likely having to do with Rand's 'dead body' being a fake and crumbling away, even possibly as Logain steps in to take the glory (why else would he be laughing so hard? That, or Logain becomes the head of the BT/AS after Tarmon Gaidon. Rand's body was shown conclusively dead on a barge in one vision (a la Arthur), so I'm not sure how we're going to get past that...<br /><br />LTT<br />


created: 2001-08-02 13:32:25
subject: <b>Intresting</b>
body:
I can follow your idea, and even incorperate evidence to back it up.  Everyone knows that Rand is said to die (though EVEN that is underdispute).  What if those flashes or sparks that Matt and Perrin get when thinking of Rand and vise versa...what if these sparks mean that the bond that keeps the Tavern together is wanning and Rand is going to break it by dying...maybe taking over another form.  I don't know but those flashes have to mean something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I could die for you, but I couldn't and wouldn't live for you&quot;--Ayn Rand 'The Fountainhead'<br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Philosopher of the Ages <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of Time Wasting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> One Who Does Nothing At Work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 23:35:01
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I like the idea...so I support it.  And to ananke, the Forsaken only recognize him because they know what he looks like.  The Dark One didn't know who the Dragon was, although Fain had narrowed it down to the three boys for him...so I don't think the Chosen would know any better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 08:41:19
subject: <b>It's not that convincing</b>
body:
This theory seemed convincing, in my opinion, mainly because there are so many unsolved mysteries within the plot that most theory thought by people would seemed valid and yet somehow not much true at the same time. In Egwene's dream, that Rand's body crumbling away as if an empty shell. I believe that this is a trick Rand uses, so that Loagin will gain power temporarily, and have to deal with the troubles coming ahead, e.g. defeating Taim, and Elaida's fortelling about the Black Tower in bloody and fire. After that, when Logain's power is reduced by the oncoming battle/trouble, Rand will retake the Black Tower with relative ease.


created: 2002-10-17 21:44:21
subject: <b>this sounds very logical</b>
body:
Wow! I think this theory sounds pretty right on, and if any one has ever read the Majipoor books, you know this theory is not far fetched. It sounds logical that Rand will need to get rid of his dying body, especially now that saidin has been cleansed. I'm not sure how his wives will react to a new body, good thing Logain is supposedly cute. I do wonder what Logain will do with his consciousness. Will it be lost in Tel'aran'rhiod? How will they do the change? One of them would have to die for the other to take his body. Very interesting theory!


created: 2001-03-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>I'll agree for now.</b>
body:
I agree with this theory at the moment but as we've all learned, take nothing for granted. The real test will come when and if <br />Olver ever meets Birgitte.


created: 2001-03-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not so sure</b>
body:
How do we know all the heroes/souls of legend are born into the new age?  The only one we know of for sure is Rand.  Perhaps Cain will be born into Olver at the appropriate time... say puberty.  But seriously, the two ending up being the same is not that far of a stretch.  Plus, if he is not Cain, then what is Olver adding to the story?  Maybe he'll turn out to be the ultimate dark friend.


created: 2001-03-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>They have already met</b>
body:
I'm sure Olver and Birgette have already met, back in Ebu Dar when they were all hunting for the bowl.  If I remember correctly, she took an instant liking to him and he rubbed his face in her bussom.


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>I've got it!!</b>
body:
That's what's going to be so odd about Elayne's babies...they'll all be as ugly as sin, and one will be Gaidal Cain....Taveren in "action" or what??? <img src="images/biggrin.gif" />


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Cain reborn to Elayne</b>
body:
I LOVE this idea that Gaidal Cain will be reborn as one of Elayne's babies, especially as Birgitte is Elayne's warder. The only reason I think it won't happen is that Elayne comes from the attractive gene pool, and Rand also is (supposedly) handsome. That they could produce ugly offspring is unlikely.  Still, I'd like to see it happen.


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Min's viewings of Birgitte in Winter's Heart</b>
body:
At the end of Chapter 12 in Winter's Heart, right after Rand is bonded, Min sees her. On page 297 (hc) it is said that "...those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man." Why would this be mentioned if it wasn't important? I wouldn't discount the theory that Olver could end up being Gaidal Cain somehow. As someone else mentioned, there has to be a reason for Olver to be in the story otherwise. And why make him so ugly and then keep talking about how Birgitte prefers ugly men?


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Olver Cain?</b>
body:
Now, I'm not decided one way or another about Cain and Olver, but I'll just play devi's advocate.  We know that Rand is the strongest ta'veren ever.  We also know that Perrin and Mat's ta'verenism is very strong as well, and the three's pull on the pattern usually works in tandem.  Occasionally, Mat himself can even feel the pattern pulling on him ("As the silver crown bounced end over end, he suddenly felt luck grow from trickles to a flood...he could have called face or sigil and known the coin would land on any bounce."  Chapter 2, Whirlpools in the Pattern, pg 70, THe Shadow Rising, Robert Jordan.  We know that the Heroes are kept in Tel'aran'rhiod by the pattern, and we know that ta'veren, especially these strong-ass ta'veren, effect the pattern.  The greater the ta'veren, the greater the effect.  Who's to say that the triple ta'veren effect wouldn't effect time even further and unexplainably in regards to the rebirth of the heroes?<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" />johan


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Getting a Soul</b>
body:
SOmeone mentioned above of Olver being infused with Gaidal's soul in puberty.<p>Are kids, then, soulless till their voice cracks?  That seems a silly, yet would explain so much in this world.</p><p>Also, a comment was made about Elayne's twins, and one of them being Gaidal.  My take is this.  There were two twin ta'veren when Mat sounded the horn at Falme.  One was wearing a white mask, another a black, and theyt were male and female.  When those two were born, they marked a new age.  I think those two will be born right as Rand makes the fatal blow on the DO (if you can kill someone who ressurects others)  Thats my story and I am sticking to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>In answer to</b>
body:
Inanswer to thequestion of what purpose Olverserves to the story if he's not a reborn Gaidal Cain, I think it'll end up haveing to do with the Finns. Someone already pointed out in another theory that Olver seems to spend a lot of time playing the Snakes and Foxes game which is almost surely an ancient refference to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. The idea was stated that perhaps Olver will be the first to figure out a way to win the game, and that knowledge will become crucial to rescuing Moiraine.<p>   THere you go a purpose for Olver that doesn't involve him being Gaidal Cain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>O=G, A little Evidence</b>
body:
In the Fires of Heaven on page 575 of the paperback it reads:<p>"'This is not Tel'aran'rhiod.' It was not a question, but Elayne nodded, and Birgitte sank back with a long sigh. 'I remember everything,' she whispered. 'I am here as I am, and I remember. All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy. But even if I find him, what will he think of a woman more than old enough to be his mother?' She scrubbed angrily at her eyes, muttering, 'I do not cry. I never cry. I remember that, the Light help me. I never cry."</p><p>So, Olver could be Gaidal. I don't think that math eliminates him. In fact, everything else I have read seems to suggest that Olver is Gaidal.</p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>I slightly agree</b>
body:
I'm sorry but no.  I'm indifferent to Olver being Cain or not, but I just cannot accept your reasoning.  You base it on Olver's age mainly, and Birgitte herself admitted that Cain will be either an infant OR A YOUNG CHILD!  I don't know whether or not Olver is Gaidal Cain, and i'm not stating my beliefs.  All I am saying is that regardless of whether he's cain or not, you're reasoning is flawed. <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><p><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>for the second time</b>
body:
This is my second blackboard comment for this theory, but this is not in terms o the theory itself.  Now i'm talking about the comments that state that Gaidal Cain will be born to Elayne.  All I have to say about this is: CAIN WAS REBORN BEFORE ELAYNE EVEN CONCIEVED.  There.  I said it.  Now let's just wait for the truth (the preceding statements) to b realized by the people who wrote those comments. Read the books over again before you write a comment <img src="images/read.gif" /> (Now I know one of my comments will be disproven beyond a shadow of a doubt) <img src="images/jester.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not math, Physics</b>
body:
My mainreasoning for Olver not Being Gaidal isn't math, but rather the fact that Gaidal Cain couldn't be in 2 places at once. Olver is old enough that he had to have been alive during the Seachan battle at Falme. That battle was where Cain among other heroes were summoned back by the horn of Valere. If Gaidal Cain had already been reborn as Olver he could not have answered the call of the horn. Plain and simple. It's the same logic that eliminates Mat as being a reborn Arthur Hawkwing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
yes...I do....really.<br />Even if Olver WAS Gaidal Cain it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other....Lets see...Olver IS Gaidal....so what...he can't get jiggy with Birgitte...he can't be this big warrior dude....What would be the point in introducing him like that<br />Any way....I suspect that nobody is gonna get spun out...they are all gonna remain tied to the horn and therefore cannot be in the waking world when it is blown....If the horn is blown, Birgitte wont go to the call cos she is no longer the hero from the legends...the same applies to the rest...if the wheel spun out all of the heroes, then when the horn was blown nobody would answer the call.<br />Make sense???


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sorry, but I think Olver = Cain</b>
body:
My reasoning goes back to pieces of theories posted on and off again for quite some time.  Firstly, I don't think that the fact that the math adds up is valid.  We all know that time passes differently in tel'aran'rhiod.  Done.  It is possible for Cain to be in two places at once....when the Horn of Valere is blown.  If the Horn is supposed to bring the souls of the heroes of the wheel to fight for whoever blew the Horn, what difference if that soul is born already into another body?  That would mean that if a hero is reborn, he isn't really that hero again until he matures.  That's not right.  Cain is Olver.  Olver is Cain.  Regardless that Olver was alive and kicking at the time of Falme.  <br />Next, as for Birgitte getting ripped out of tel'aran'rhiod, we know that that is going to mess with her meeting up with Cain.  But she's already taken to the little ugly kid Olver.  Too coincidental.  We also surmise that Olver is going to have something to do with beating the Finns.  Here's my thoughts (taken from someone else sometime, somewhere):  I think that it's possible that Olver can come into his own as Cain as a result of the wishes he gets from the Finns.  If anyone can do it, it's the Finns that can align Olver with his destiny to be Cain.  <br />Those are my thoughts.


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Olver is Not Gaidal Cain</b>
body:
Hi!<p>Sorry, but I also considered the possibility that GC was called from Olver. It sounded plausible until I remembered that GC was seen in T'AR after Falme. </p><p>So we have:</p><p>Olver is born</p><p>Heroes called to Falme<br />GC spotted in T'AR some time later (with Brigette)<br />GC spun out</p><p>Time may work differently in T'AR but backwards...no, I don't think so...otherwise, you could have people entering it for time travel.</p><p>So, we are left with the possibilityt hat GC took over a body on the verge of death.</p><p>Given what Thom says, this may be possible. But from his reaction, its not considered a *nice* thing and so would a hero do it?</p><p>Likeliest explanation is that he's still a babe (or will soon be born).</p><p>So I have to say Olver isn't GC. While posisble, its only barely possible.</p><p>EJL</p><p><br /></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Incorrect Assumption</b>
body:
I'm not sure whether Olver is Gaidal Cain, but one thing I AM sure of, and that's that you're all wrong when you assume that souls can't take dead bodies.  How do you think the Great Lord Shai'tan (May He Be Forever Blessed) got two new bodies for His Chosen, Osan'gar and Aran'gar?  From humans near the Borderlands.  Everyone mentions over and over that they have Borderlands features for this reason, yet when it comes time to apply this possibility to Olver, the nay-sayers always mention his age as proof that he "can't" be Gaidal Cain.  As I said, I'm not sure whether he is or isn't, but you can't use his age to rule him out.<p>Personally, I hope to see him end up in a Trolloc cookpot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font></p><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Birgitte's comment explianed</b>
body:
Birgitte said that Cain is out there and could be a baby or even a small boy because she didn't know how much time had passed in the real world.  She only knew how much time had passed in TAR.  But WE know how much time passed in the real world, so we know Olver cannot be Gaidal Cain if Gaidal was spun out in the normal way.  Also, I hardly think that if the horn was blown and a hero was already alive that his/her soul would leave the current body to go fight.  That's just ridiculous.  This does not say that Olver is not gaidal Cain, just not by the conventional means.  (I don't think he is Gaidal, but that's moot)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ahhh but....</b>
body:
Okay the point that Olver was alive and well while Gaidal Cain was in T'A'R does strengthen my position. <p>   To strengthen the opposition is the mentioning that Arangar and Osangar are in habiting the bodies of border landers.</p><p>   So far as we've been able to tell in the books Shaitan as Lord Of the Grave has dominion over death. While he can't stop someone from being reborn we've seen nothing to indicate that the creator uses that method to bring back anyone. Like one person said it seems that this isn't a good guy thing to do. I can't even justify the creator using the body of a boy that happens to have died for making Cain older than an infant. He created the wheel and thus the pattern, if he's using the pattern like this is the creator any better than the destroyer (the most apt name to give his nemisis)?</p><p>   So can onyone offer an explanation as to how Olver was alive and at Falme then in The Wolfdream? Can anyone tell how the creator can use the dark ones own methods with out stooping down to his level? I'm not trying to be rude or smug btw, I just love this debate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>In re: Ahhh but...</b>
body:
Lord Savaunt, I'll take you up on that debate request.  The Creator wasn't responsible for Birgitte being torn from T'A'R.  It was Moghedien, who forcibly ripped her from the World of Dreams.  Birgitte realized as soon as this happened that Gaidal Cain was being reborn.  However, we don't know for sure that he was "spun" out according to the Creator's will or "torn" out as a necessary side-effect of Moghedien's attack.  If Gaidal Cain was ripped forcibly from Tel'aran'rhiod by one of the Forsaken, then it could very well be that a dead child's body was chosen.  If a set number of years has to separate Birgitte and Gaidal Cain's ages, then an already-living child would be the only way Moghedien could tear Birgitte from T'A'R.  I'm not putting any money on it, but it seems entirely possible.<p>Either way, we can still hope his fate is the same: boiled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font></p><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Cain spun out before Birgette was ripped out</b>
body:
I just want to correct the people who seem to think that Cain was ripped out or spun out after and as a result of Birgette being ripped out.  Before Birgette was ripped out she told Elayne  (I think) that she wasn't sure how much longer she would be able to help them because she couldn't find Cain anywhere which ment that he had been spun out.  Cain was spun out BEFORE Birgette was ripped out.


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>A person CAN be in two places at once.</b>
body:
First, the simple logic: My hand is here, but my leg is there.<p>Second, to throw out some evidence: The physical bodies of Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve remain in the "real world" while some other part of them goes to T'A'R.</p><p>Also, there is Isam/Luc.</p><p>And Rand and Lews.  (And the fact that Ishy says in EotW that Rand isn't--wasn't, now, I suppose--the Dragon yet).</p><p>In conclusion, there seems to be plenty of room for Olver to split into two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
As of 11:33 Central time I see that my first thread is at Fifty Fifty, Nifty Nifty.<p>   So is that common?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not even Slayer</b>
body:
Have we ever seen a character that is consciaously and coherently in T'A'R and the waking world at once? In other words could Olver have been in T'A'R and Awake? Even SLayer has to be in a single place at a given time.<p>   By the way has anyone else figured out that SLayer can travel to mirror worlds without using a portal stone or channeling. T'A'R is a part of all worlds of the wheel. SLayer coudl pop into the wolf dream and pop out in the HAWKING LOST THE SECOND TROLLOC WAR! world for example.</p><p>   BY the way this puts forth another idea or two. Could Egwene or Nynaeve meet alternate versions of themselves in T'A'R could Nynaeve meet a version of herself that is sister wife to Moiraine D. Mandragorn? COuld Egwene meet a version of her that stayed in the two rivers until she ran off with Bode Cauthon to see the world?</p><p>   Are the heroes of every world bound to their worlds horn, or are all heroes bound to one horn that exist in various worlds? This could mean that the Gaidal Cain that fought at Falme and was in T'A'R was a different one from Birgitte finding Olver to be a young Gaidal. I just shot a hole in my own theory folks. Enjoy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why do you assume that Olver was awake?</b>
body:
He could have been Gaidal Cain while asleep.<p>Or he might not have been Gaidal Cain at all before Gaidal Cain was spun out.</p><p>Even if you don't accept that Lews/Rand are necessarily two different personas living in the same body, you must at least accept that of Isam/Luc.  If Isam/Luc can be so, it is not improbable that Heroes of the Horn are also so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Olver is Gaidal Cain.</b>
body:
Olver is Gaidal Cain. <br />       The facts support this<br />1. Birgette mentions that Gaidal Cain has disappeared from tel'aranrhiod, and previously this has only happened when he has been reborn.<br />2. Birgette mentions that whenever they first meet, they have a dislike for each other. When Olver meets Birgette for the first time in tanchico, he dislikes her immediately, which is odd considering his usual Mat like behaviour towards women.<br />3. The physical resemblance of Cain and Olver is not coincidence, both are short with wide mouths and large noses.<br />4. where else is better for Gaidal Cain to learn about swordmanship than The Band of the Red Hand<p>  Now there are some people who insist that since olver is seven or so and that he can't be Cain, as Cain was summoned to the horn at Falme and the times aren't right. Yet these exact same people accept that Rand has the voice of Lews Therin inside his head, a man that has been dead for 3 thousand years. So since Rand is Lews Therin Telamon reborn and yet they exist at the same time, it is entirely possible that Olver can be Cain reborn and exist at the same time.<br /> <br /></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>So exactly</b>
body:
When was Olver in Tanchio? First off Mat found him, not Nynaeve Elayne and Birgitte. Secodnly BIrgitte didn't get pulled out've the wolf dream til after that enroute to Salidar.<p>   So Birgitte was commenting on Cain being gone before she got spun out, what has this to do with Olver? Like somebody already pointed out BIrgitte has no sense of time in T'A'R she coulld've been in there for a decade after Cain stepped out or a day for all she knew.</p><p>   Well is Olver supposed to like every gal he meets? Birgitte find his ugliness cute, so maybe he thinks that she's patronizing him?</p><p>   Wait you mean RJ has never had two guys look alike? I don't know bout other folks but me and my sister have both imagined Logain and Mazrim looking exactly alike.</p><p>   What purpose further does Gaidal Cain serve as Olver? As being someone that Birgitte will never meet again doesn't it make more sense to have Cains purpose to have been to show the loss and hardship of being a hero?</p><p>   Burr wanted to know why I assume Olver was awake when Cain was in the dream.</p><p>   Because Birgitte seemed to imply that being reborn meant leaving the wolf dream duh? If Gaidal is Olver he can't have swooped over to Falme, then chilled in the wolf dream all at the time that Olver was alive.</p><p>   Cain COULDN'T have overtaken Olvers body dead or alive. Who are the only dead folk in fresh new bodies that we've seen? The Forsaken. Wha are the only almagamated people that we've met? Ordieth (Padan Fain/Mordeth) and Slayer (Isam/Luc). SO these means seem to be limited to evil folk and if the creator or good forces use them then the shadow benefits. If they can corrupt the heroes and have them use their methods then they score another point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>He could.</b>
body:
Lews hasn't been in Rand's head all of Rand's life.  Lews didn't "take over" Rand's body until later on.<p>In response to the person listing Olver's and Gaidal's similarities to each other, I think you forgot an important one.  Gaidal and Olver are both exceptional riders.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Souls.....</b>
body:
Just out of curiosity as Jordan ever said when the sould inhibits the body?  If so where?  It would be helpful to know if the sould enters the body at conception, birth, or when the person gains self-awareness.


created: 2001-06-14 15:51:00
subject: <b>Lews/Rand</b>
body:
It's clearly just Rand going insane. He hears voices in his head... if that's not going insane, then what is? He is going mad, Lews Therin is NOT real.<br /><br />Anyway, I think Olver is Gaidal Cain, but I'm not going so say any more bout it, cause you've pretty much mentioned it all...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-22 20:40:34
subject: <b>Olver=Gaidal Cain</b>
body:
	Maybe when Mat sounded the Horn of Valere Olver passed out.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 21:58:12
subject: <b>Aaah, but...</b>
body:
The Dark One gave Balthamel and Aginor bodies again as Aran'gar and Osan'gar, right?  Is it plausible to believe that the Creator could do the same thing?  In the world's time of need, could the Creator have send out one of their greatest heroes to try and stop this trouble?<br /><br />I know this may sound a bit far-fetched, but just consider it.  The Creator is separate from the Wheel, right?  Could we then assume that he/she could see all places and events on the Wheel at once?  Could he/she then see Olver's future importance, and place Gaidal Cain in a young dead boy at just the right time?  Or even if Cain was born as Olver, if the Creator stands seperate from the Wheel, could he/she have bent time, in a way, to place Gaidal Cain there ahead of time?<br /><br />I still need to work on this, and I know there are a lot of holes I have yet to fix.  Maybe this is it, and maybe its not.  I'm sure RJ will tell us eventually (whether in Book ten or Book one hundred and ten, and hopefully the series won't take that long to write!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 18:58:45
subject: <b>Gaidal Caid is Olver</b>
body:
If you remember correctly, Birgitte was also at the Battle of Falme.  At that time neither person was reborn, but remember when Birgitte was talking in T'A'R she said she could not find Gaidal and time moves differently so he may be six or seven.  That would imply that the reasoning behind this theory is incorrect.


created: 2001-12-09 17:22:44
subject: <b>Olver sholuld be Gaidal Cain (IMHO)</b>
body:
Fist of all I think that Olver is GC.Why?<br /> 1.Same appearance<br /> 2.Loves older women(may be a feeling for Birgitte being now older?)<br /> 3.Dislikes Birgitte at first<br /> 4.Why on Earth he would be so important in the story if he is an usual boy?<br /> About the things that could be said against it:<br />  1.Gaidal could be yong boy said Birgitte so the age is not problem.<br />  2.In Falme he is seen but Ithink that even heroes born come when the horn calls them .<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 18:24:22
subject: <b>To be cain or not to be Cain that is the Question.</b>
body:
Ok, In T A R you can look however you want, and if you dream yourself there, you can physically leave T A R, I Think he did that when he went to Falme, Ok a bit stretching it. But it works, RJ repeats how ugly Oliver. So there is a chance, of course RJ always surprises us. So Who Knows.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> =<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Slighly Sain <br />A bit Synical<br />Master Illit<br />Lord of Typo's<br />King Newbie<br />The Doomed BEDLAM<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 14:54:06
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
There are two points that I would like to address:<br /><br />1. Everyone keeps on saying that Birgitte said that they always dislike each other at first, and that therefore the proof is that Olver is Gaidal Cain is evidenced by the fact that he dislikes her when they meet.  The problem is that her statement is two way, and the event is one way.  That is Olver dislikes her, but not vice-versa.  She does not say anything about him disliking her at first in their previous encounters, but that they mutually dislike each other.  There is not evidence that Birgitte disliked Olver when she first me him.  One could argue that because she was ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod that part of the pattern does not apply, but at the same time if the pattern &quot;forces&quot; a young boy to dislike someone, could it not do the same to a grown woman?<br /><br />2. People keep on posting that otherwise Olver has no purpose in the story.  One could argue that Amys, also has no purpose in the story either.  I mean after all, she is not reborn hero, and all she ever did is teach Egwene how to dreamwalk?  What about Aram?  He only appeared so that we could see someone forsaking to be a Tinker.  Are we to believe that he also must be a reborn hero?<br /><br />My argument here is that the one thing that is common to the people I just mentioned is that they all served to teach something to the people they are associated with.  I believe that Olver serves the same purpose.  He teaches Mat responsability.  Yes, Mat always keeps his promise, but otherwise you could characterize him as irresponsible; however, Olver forces him to become more aware of the consequences of his actions.  It is because of this that he stays behind in Ebou Dar which eventually leads him to meet Tuon.  That is enough of a purpose for me for the character to exist.<br /><br />//i\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-16 03:30:49
subject: <b>Gaidal is Olver</b>
body:
I tend to think that Olver and Gaidal are one and the same.<br /><br />I don't buy arguments that the time doesn't work out.  That<br />was my gut reaction too, but after reading a few quotes<br />given by attentive readers on here, I think it safe to say<br />that the patter is capable of most anything here.   All<br />comments to the effect of: Thom wasn't really right because:<br />blah, blah, blah&quot; are all just speculation, and really, we<br />know nothing about the limitations, if any, on the pattern.<br />It wouldn't need to be the Creator, it could simply have<br />been necessary for the pattern to plop Gaidal out on someone<br />close enough in age to Birgette.<br /><br />With respect to Amys being a main character: Amys has very<br />little actual character development.  She is there to fill<br />a role, much like Rhuarc is.  Olver meanwhile fits no real<br />role and has had tons of character development.  Sure, he<br />may have inadvertently kept Mat in Ebou Dari but anything<br />could have done that.  Mat could have left his Ashandarei<br />behind or whatever.  We know all sorts of things about Olver<br />and also it is obvious that there is a lot to him that we<br />don't yet know, he is a character in midbloom, not a static<br />fill-in.  I think it rather a stretch to compare Olver to <br />Amys or to think that his role is just to be a cute kid, <br />play Foxes and Snakes, etc.<br /><br />RJ has shown us t hat coincidences are rare in his world.<br /><br />Olver is almost certainly Gaidal.  But we'll see.<br /><br />---<br />StGabriel, the Taoist saint.


created: 2003-08-30 14:08:24
subject: <b>i agree but...</b>
body:
i agree but not for the same reasons. i think that the heroes Can be spun into living bodies just like thom merrlin said but wouldnt the wheel spin gaidal cain into a HALF WAY decent body that would be able to participate in the upcoming last battle? i don't think olver could win against a sleeping trollock with a layover!!!


created: 2003-11-04 15:38:31
subject: <b>might be wrong but</b>
body:
I am pretty sure that a few years pass between some fo the books, I almost remember reading some quotes. most likely enough for Olver to be born after Falme. I am reading them agian, so ill keepo and eye out if i can find it again.


created: 2005-04-17 19:46:07
subject: <b>To Icon</b>
body:
Just gotta toss in my two cents<br /><br /><b>&quot;What about Aram? He only appeared so that we could see someone forsaking to be a Tinker&quot;</b><br /><br />Actually, at some point in the series, not quite sure where, nor am I sure whether it was Egwene or Min, but one of the two saw something about Perrin, and a Tinker with a sword, and something about the Tinker being bad for him. Obviously this isn't an exact quote, and I'd be happy if somebody could provide it. I know it takes place before Perrin goes back to the Two Rivers. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's tSR.<br /><br />Basically, what I'm trying to get at, is that Aram does have some as-yet unfulfilled purpose.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>I agree completely</b>
body:
I always thought since books and books ago that Semi was with the Seanchan. There was little evidence. I thought for a time she might have been Tuon herself (before WH)apart from the Mat situation.<p>Now Anath has turned up it's obvious who she is like it was about Rand in the first book. But then, I thought that about Taimandred too. Thanks for going to the effort to present the proof.</p><p>Another thing, is it actually mentioned anywhere B4 WH that Semi is black? A good actress to play Anath would be Grace Jones I think (but that's not a theory, just a comment).</p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>We are getting a hold on this thing.</b>
body:
This doesn't refer especially to this theory, but looks like the fans are more and more able to read between the lines and guess what Jordan might be thinking. At first, he had almost all of us beffundled with his odd remarks and half-said facts, but now the theories are becoming more and more complex with more and more evidences that can be found in those small remarks as the books are coming along <img src="images/read.gif" /><p>Can hardly wait for the next book...</p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Catch ya all later <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /></p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Anath's appearanc</b>
body:
In the post "stating the obvious," the other post about Semirhage's identity, Mat describes Anath being almost as dark as her gown.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>re: above post</b>
body:
Sorry...the theory is "semirhage the truthspeaker"<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>In reply to jayhawk...</b>
body:
When I hear someone described as "dark", I usually think very contrasting features. Very pale, very very black hair, often wearing black. I've seen it used that way in other books (not Wheel of Time), too. I think maybe that new Terry Brooks book- not sure. anyway, That's how I think of Semi. Remember, Jordan does not describe the Sea Folk as dark.


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Actually he does.....</b>
body:
From TBWB (a.k.a. The Big Whit Book) By Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson Pg. 174 paragraph 3 line 6 found under the Heading THE ATHA'AN MIERE in the chapter titled 19 THE SEA FOLK ISLANDS:<p>   "The deep chocolate coloration of their skin and their unequaled grace, born of years balancing on wind lashed rigging on the high seas, contribute to their allure;"</p><p>   This does tend to imply that at least some of the sea folk are what we would call black people. It would there fore seem not entirely unreasonable that some of the Sean Chan might also be black. Some of them being Da'Covale and So'jihn is merely a logical exstension.</p><p><br />   Semirnath may be a white girl in her actual appearance, but she could easily create a reversed mask of mirrors as a black woman and revers her sensory presence as someone who can channel. Moghedien did this when she was in Salidar before and after Nynaeve discovered her. Hell it'd be a great way to hide her tru identity and give her the opportunity to skulk around in her own guise so as not to compromise her identity as Anath.</p><p>   Well that's my 25 cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>So-called Aiel</b>
body:
I think you're right on the mark with that one! I just wnt to give my impression about the "so-called Aiel".<p>I think Demandred says that because, before the breaking, Aiels were not fighters, but more like the thua'Than nowadays, and they were respected by ALL. It would be normal for Demandred to show some respect for the "old" Aiels, not the recent ones.</p><p><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>re: QueenChris</b>
body:
That's a good point...I did not think of it that way.  But now that you mention it, it makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>So called?</b>
body:
Was that when no uh never mind.<p>   When did Taim say that?</p><p>   By the way is Semirnath a good name for the thoerised disguise for Semirhage as Anath if it proves true?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Names</b>
body:
Semirath is good, but I like "Anaraghe", if only because it follows the alias-real name pattern in<br />Taimandred<br />Haliman'gar<br />Dashivan'gar<br />All the others seem to be using their real names( I think, let's see, there's 8 left, -Demandred,Semiraghe,Aran'gar, Moridin, Cyndane, Mesaana, Moghedien, Graendal). Oops! We need ones for Mesaana and Graendal. What about:<br />Danesaana (Danelle-Mesaana)<br />Basendal (Basene-Graendal)<br />My 2 cents, anyway!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>See I thought....</b>
body:
...That using the assumed name first and the real names last was a jinx.<p>   For Corlan Dashiva/Osangar/Aginor/that guy I saw at the candystore(?) that no one had used a name. I really don't recall anyone using a mix name for Halima since she was introduced as Arangar in disguise.</p><p>   When I get the chance to I will check out another copy of WH (my signed copy is coming from a home boy in OR) I will do a more thourough run down of the reamining C/F as we can expect.</p><p>   Right now the tally is:</p><p>   Definitely alive:<br />Moridin (holder of the "How much longer do I get to be Nadblis?" award</p><p>Moghedien (Holder of the "Forsaken/Chosen in the deepest goat dip" award)</p><p>Semirnath (Holding the "Where am I, do I even count as a character yet" award)</p><p>Mesaana (trying desperately to get rid of her "C'mon can I please have just one teensy weensy chapter devoted fully to me" trophy)</p><p>SHADAR HARAN (prestigiously holding aloft the "Screw Naeblis I am the dark ones right hand man [assuming of course that I aint him in disguise} and can tell all y'all to bugger off" award for 4 books running now)</p><p>   THe most probaly alive:<br />Cyndane (holding the lovely "Only female Forsake to have bit the dust and died [man I am not good {but still better than that slut Arangar and even if she dies it don't count} at this whole evil thing] and had to be resurected" award)</p><p>Demandred/I am not Taimandred already (Desperatly holding on tight to the "Last male Forsaken to not have ever died not even once [HA HA I FREAKIN RULE BABY] in this entire series" award that comes with a free keg of oosquai and an ounce of Two RIver Tabac)</p><p>Graendal (holding aloft her "well what the hell have I been doing since book 8 anyway" award)</p><p>   The Probably dead:</p><p>Arangar (holding that creepy lookin "Check first and so far only Forsaken to get a sex change and I LOVE IT, LOVE IT!" award)</p><p>   The very very freaking dead:<br />Osangar (holding that ugly "First forsaken to have been waxed twice I truly suck at this just leave me alone I'll be in my trailer with some spiced wine and Torval givign me a back rub" award)</p><p>   Among the previously dead:</p><p>Aginor (Holding the "I woke up into the world just in time to get my silly ass killed I suck!" trophy)</p><p>Belthamel (flaunting his "Hey shut the hell up freak, I got waxed by a Nym without even having time to shake of the cobwebs [dude if I get to come back then next time I wanna be a chick or something] from my 3 thousand year hangover" trophy set)</p><p>Belal (Holding that lovely "Oh crap Balefire really does suck [and I got like no character development]" award)</p><p>Ishamael (showing of the "Well at least I get to come back and be everyones pimp" statue)</p><p>Rahvin (Having to find his "Hey Belal what is there to eat around here anyway dude [yeah that Balefire stuff is totally heinous {and I got some from Elaynes mom} we should do somethin about this] I am starvin for the marvin" award)</p><p>Asmodean (Dude Listen hhere I don't even get to have a trophy so all y'all just shut up [especially if you're still alive and well] and go get me some nachos cause I got like 15 more minutes [and no don't even ask who killed me cause I've forgotten anyway] before I have to go back to "Trollocs in Love a WoT porn" and shoot another scene)</p><p>Sammael (Hey guys I'm not dead seriously, c'mon I'll be in hiding for like another book but I'll definitely be in book 9 oh crap I meant 10 yeah 10 guys I'll be all wicked Mashadar Sammael and get me a benz)<br /> <br />   The dishonorable mentions:</p><p>A countless number of dread lords, dark friends, friends of the dark black ajah, some guys that met Padan Fain on that day that his hemroids were flaring up, any guys that saw Shadar Haran saying Shaitan, Shaitan you are the pimp into a mirror, some chick that went into Shadar Logoth the night before the Choedan Cal incident because her boy friend said it'd be a great make out spot, and finally Kadere Hadnan because he had a soft side is now proably in the realm of the dead getting traded nightly for a pouch of tabac so that some gal can strangle him till the sun comes up.</p><p>BY the way names are as follows:</p><p>   Semirnath<br />   Arangima<br />   Osanshiva<br />   Mesanelle<br />   Graesene<br />   Olive Oil<br />   Halimangar<br />   Dashivangar<br />   Danesaana<br />   Basendal<br />   Anarhage</p><p>   By the way 5$ bucks says that none of the currently 7 to 8 living forsaken are gonna die in book 1-0 any takers?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Yet another odd point</b>
body:
I believe that the Empress herself appointed Anath to be Soe'feia. (Hope I spelled that right).<p>Raises two interesting points.</p><p>Either the Empress is a Darkfriend, or she was Compelled.</p><p>I say the first, due to a very obscure thought by Egeanin.</p><p>I believe that it is stated that not even the Empress is immune to the Ravens (Watchers, I believe) and their methods of finding corruption.</p><p>Interesting idea.</p><p>Also of note:<br />Where is Demandred?  Shara?</p><p>=)</p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Where is Demandred?</b>
body:
I always got the notion that he was drifting around and never staying in the same place too long. Think bout it. Every other Forsaken that has had a steady base of ops has been whacked. Even the on'es that've covered their tracks Like Arangima and Osanshiva have gotten in trouble.<p>   So Deman being a smart lil cookie (c'mon he's that last Forsaken that can pee standing up that we Know for sure hasn't bit the bullet once) would be sort've shifty and moving around so he's never in one place long enough to get a rep as a weirdo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Be careful....</b>
body:
Perhaps Jordan WAS going to make Taim = Dem, but because we fiqured it out, he changed his mind...The same might happen with Anath. Just a thought.


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
Demandred can't be drifting around too much, he is staying close enough to Rand to keep an eye on him.  During the Forsaken meeting in Winter's Heart (can't remember the page), one of the forsaken (I forget who) tells Oran'gar that he and Demendred were supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>one more piece of evidence</b>
body:
in FoH LIANDRIN has major sheild put on her that Moggi tells her that Liandrin herself would not be able to remove unless she finds somebody  with Moggi's skill.<br />in the PoD liandrin shows up as high lady Suroth's property and damene(i don't remember her channelling but what is the point of having a damene who can't channel).Suroth is a darkfreind.this points to the fact there is a forsaken in the seachean group.


created: 2001-04-09 00:00:00
subject: <b>Inconclusive though</b>
body:
See the impression that I got was that she was a Da'Covale not a Damane. Further it was never stated whether or not she could channel again. However even if she can't I do believe that the shield was not reversed so that would mean that any daman could see it and then try to work on it. Ithe Smeirnath theory is correct then that could account for Semirnath masking the weaves and holding Liandrin back as a secret weapon. She may have a great disdain for what she deems psuedo Aes Sedai, but Liandrin does her more good as a slave that is her hole card than as a damane. Especially since that could lead to confessions that would disrupth the plans of other dark friends and take Suroth out've power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>one more piece of evidence</b>
body:
i believe there is a POV of the general where he is quite taken aback by the fact that liandrin was a damane who is dressed as Da'Covale (property).And Moggi was quite sure that the sheild could not be broken any simple female channneller the sheild was quite complicated as the sheild created by the Kin wise woman had on Nynaeve in CoS


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>In response to a response</b>
body:
No Tuon is not the empress. Re-read WH and you'll learn that she's the Princess or Sean Chan equivalent there of.<p>   There are parts that mention her mother assigning Anath to the post of Truth Speaker. If she was Empress then it would seem unlikely that her mother could override her like that, as it would cause Sei'tar or whatever that downcast eyes term is in the oold tounge.</p><p>   There are also passages mentioning her competing with her sibling for favor, and only being aloud to visit her mother twice a year or so. So unless the Empress has died or been deposed Tuon is still the hotty heir to the throne.</p><p>   Come one you can't seriously say I'm the only guy that thinks she's good looking?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-15 20:35:11
subject: <b>What theory are we on again???</b>
body:
1.  Okay, we've known since TGH that Tuon is currently favored for the Crystal Throne.  Now, we know that everyone in line for the Throne is always competing with each other for the Empress, may she live forever, 's favor.  What if this little trip to Randland with Tuon at the helm is a test set up by her mother to see if she is truly deserving of the Throne.  Okay we know this, right??? Good.<br /><br />Okay, 2.  Semirhage (or any forsaken, may they rot in the Waste forever) would benefit greatly in the eyes of the DO (may he be forever sealed) if they could somehow control one of the ta'veren. If Semirhage is indeed Anath, she can (in a sense) control Tuon, who, by marrying Mat, can control the luckiest ta'veren we have to date.  Now, while collecting important people from around the world to act as your slave is currently fitting with Graendal, who says Semirhage can't join in the fun.  And maybe, just maybe, the whole thing with Mat losing his eye could be done by Semirhage (torture, gotta love it) and the whole, giving up of one half of the light of the world to save the world is going to be through the Seanchan.  Remember, currently, there are two main worlds here (we don't know much about Shara), Seanchan and Randland.  Two sides to the Light, seemingly fighting a common enemy (the DO)-so they go about it differently.  What if, what if Mat has to give up Seanchan in order to save the rest of the world, essentially, giving up his wife to Semirhage in order to release Semirhage's grasp on him so that he can save the world. &lt;whew&gt;<br /><br />Okay...I'm done for right now.  I love it when I'm brilliant.<br /><br />Anima Sedai<br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 13:48:42
subject: <b>Half, eh?</b>
body:
This is a theory I just thought of on the spot, and so absurd even I don't believe it! He's going to give up half the light of the world? To see things, light is refracted off of something into the eyes (retinas). And Mat will lose an eye. Hey! Don't blame me! I'm crazy!<br /><br />{<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />}


created: 2002-06-17 12:19:14
subject: <b>logically where is semirhage?</b>
body:
I prefer to use logic instead of sorting through tons of details and particulars to solve myesteries. (Although this is a very good way to solve things and the theories I have read provide substancial evidence that semirhage is in fact Tuon's Truthteller.   <br /><br />But here are my ideas on the topic.  Just as logical as it was for Demandred to be Taim it is aslo logical that Semirhage is The Truthteller.  Why?  Well we know that the Forsaken are alive and well and serving the Dark One.  So we have to assume that they are not just sitting around waiting for things to happen.  They are directly involved, manipulating circumstances.  Logically a Forsaken should be posted in every major nation/strong power in the world.  I mean they won't get much done hanging out in Two Rivers.  We know where most of the the Forsaken are.  Demandred is with the black Tower, Mesanna is with the white tower.  Halima or BAlthemel is with the other half of the Aes Sedai.  Graendal is probably in Arad Doman but I may be mistaken.  Bael was in Tear, Sammael was in Illian.  Ishmaela and earned the right to wander as Naeblis ordering around the other Foraken screw ups.  <br /><br />But what about the seachan?  Surely it is logical to assume that a Forsaken would be posted there. They are a great power and are causing alot of change in the world.  I think that the Dark one would like to keep an eye on them and use the seachna to his advantage.  We haven't heard too much information on the wherabouts of Semirahage.  We also haven't had too much insight in the life of the Seanchan.  But in Winter's heart we read about Tuon.  Where better for Semirhage, or any other Forsaken to be posted than right next to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, telling her what to do and being near the dreaded male adam.  Coincidentally (I really don't think so)  you can't contest with a truthteller's presence or her lack of Seanchan Heritage.<br /><br />Reading the evidence compiled by other people attempting to porve this theory true only reinforces my belief that indeed it is Semirhage who is the Truthteller or at least is with the Seanchan somewhere, probably a stratigically placed somewhere.<br /><br />That's all I have to say.<br /><br />Karaethon


created: 2002-06-17 23:18:18
subject: <b>Possible identities of Semirhage</b>
body:
After having read the theories posted about Semirhage, I thought that I would offer one more suggestion.  While I agree that Semirhage is posing as Anath, I don't think that this is her only role.  I believe that Semirhage also has another very important role.<br /><br />I believe that Semirhage is also posing as Cadsuane Sedai.  I say this for a number of reasons.  First there are the obvious references to similar mannerisms and hobbies.  In fact, Cadsuane is often referenced to be engaged in needlework, which as Mesaana points out, is a hobby of Semirhage's.  In fact, the needlework that Cadsuane is often seen working on involves flowers, which Mesaana again points out that Semirhage likes, and a hand either crushing or holding the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai together.  It is no secret that Semirhage loathes everything about the current Aes Sedai, which could in part explain her choice of subjects.<br /><br />Other factors that hint at a possible Cadsuane/Semirhage identity are the fact that Rand often feels very uncomfortable around Cadsuane and Lews Therin seems to be very wary of her in much the same way that he is wary of Taim.  Dashiva/Aginor even seems to be somewhat wary around her, which would be expeceted if he knew she was Semirhage, however there is a point when Rand first meets Cadsuane and Dashiva is present that there seems to be a bit of recognition for Dashiva regarding Cadsuane.  After watching her, he seems to go from being extremely wary of her to almost amused by her interactions with the other Asha'man and Aes Sedai.  This could hint that he has recognized her true identity.<br /><br />Physically, Cadsuane is tall and has dark eyes, like Semirhage.  As far as her lighter skin and ability to slap Rand without the illusion disappearing are concerned, we already now that she wears ter'angreal in her hair.  Therefore, it is quite possible that one of these helps her maintain her illusion.  There is also little doubt that Cadsuane carries much of the fire that Semirhage is referenced to carry and she certainly seems to dominate and intimidate others in the way Semirhage is referenced to.<br /><br />Now there is always the question of how Semirhage could imitate an Aes Sedai who gained her fame when Semirhage was still trapped in the bore.  This information could have easily been garnered from the other Aes Sedai that the Dark One had captured.  This could in fact be the whole purpose behind the torture seen that is referenced in many of these theories.  She could have been torturing the Aes Sedai to gain information that would allow her to pose as an Aes Sedai that would allow her to get close to Rand.<br /><br />Finally, I believe that her duty posing in two roles, Cadsuane and Anath, is the reason that Demandred questions her ability to make meetings.  It is not just that she finds it difficult to get away.  It is that she is too busy to get away.  We know that she would've first been posing as Anath.  However Tuon references not seeing Anath much when they were on the boat traveling across the ocean.  This would give her time to pose as Cadsuane.  Additionally, when Tuon is roaming the halls of the palace in Ebou Dar, Anath is also not mentioned as being present.  Coincidentally, this is also the same time when Cadsuane plays a very large role within the book.<br /><br />All in all, this is just another theory.  We'll have to wait to see how it turns out.


created: 2002-06-25 16:21:18
subject: <b>Mat's Dice and Semirahge</b>
body:
Yes we all agree on this theory....but when Mat meets Tuon AND Anath-Semirhage for the first time, the dice stop rolling in his head.  Is it because he met Semirhage or because he met the Daughter of the Nine Moons?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-14 14:54:24
subject: <b>Re: Yet another odd point</b>
body:
In response to Wayeth's &quot;yet another odd point&quot; in which he/she claims that the Empress might be a darkfriend:<br /><br />    It would make Semirhage's job of being appointed as Tuon's Soe`fia much easier if the Empress was a darkfriend, but i do not think this is the case.  Tuon makes the comment that the empress has quite a few children and they are constantly competing for position.  If the Empress was a darkfriend, wouldn't it make sense that atleast one, but probably more, of the children were darkfriends too.  Following this line of thought it would seem logical that the child who was a darkfriend would be the current heir apparent to the crystal throne and not tuon.  I don't believe Tuon is a darkfriend so therefore i don't think the Empress is one either.  Anath gained her position through compulsion.


created: 2002-11-16 10:00:15
subject: <b>Another clue</b>
body:
<br />The prophecy at the end of LoC says: &quot;The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and the storm clouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted cast down, what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.&quot; <br /><br /><br />In case you missed it: <br /><br />&quot;Beyond the horizon... serpents nestle in the bosom&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:57:33
subject: <b>Good, but...</b>
body:
i couldn't be bothered to read all the above comments, so sorry if someone said this already. <br />In book 1 Moiraine can sense Nynaeve being near, even though she's not embracing the source. Now you'd think that most of the forsaken are fairly strong in the power, (i can't think of any references just now), so wouldn't the damane have felt her, even when not channeling? Unless she splurged out on Compulsion using the True Power. Ouch, to complicated for a tired brain.<br />But apart from that, v. good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The almost but not quite totallly not lucid one <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />? Decisions decisions....</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>tracking</b>
body:
it sounds about right except for one thing: Bryne tracks them down for a pair of eyes. <img src="images/wink.gif" /><p>Faramir <img src="images/pharoah.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">expecting the worst,<br />Faramir <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> The Godfather of Grolsch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the blah, blah, blah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Defender blah, ...<br />blah...</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>Plausible</b>
body:
I think Bryne could definitely be based of Lee. If you look at all the other characters, almost everyone of them is based off something else. So that doesn't go too far off.<br />I also think based on this theory that if he really is Lee and from a theory about the third arch I read earlier, that maybe the Rebels are going to lose in the White Tower. I don't think that is off either. It would be more dramatic and less predictable if they lost because Jordan had been building up the whole divided tower/rebellion thing. I think it would be cooler from dramatic purposes if they did lose. Rand goes to save Egwene, is captured, and refuses to bow down to the Eladia for the final time. He too will be sentenced to be cut off from the True Source (Gentled). Somebody will rescue them like in the prediction. Up to this point the White Tower of old will remain, the first Rebellion unsucessful, all of Egwene's plans to have every women associated with the tower down the tubes. But perhaps we shall then see the True white Tower of OLD. The Black Tower will welcome the Ladies in, and we will see Men and Women, Aes Sedai and Asha'man. That is what I think will happen. There is going to be three groups. Egwene and Logain's allied group, a seperate White Tower and seperate Black Tower. Of course this is all a guess, but all I am saying is Jordan is leading up to a Rebellion in the White and Black. And I think it would be neat if men and women once again as allies formed their own thrid tower, and this third one crushed the two others before the books series ended.<p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not easy.&quot; - Aristotle</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>Drkshadow03"s right</b>
body:
I just wanted to agree with Drkshadow03 but with two small change.  Rand will be rescued by Perrin, Mat, and Logains group.  Perrin to fufill the second time Rand needs him. Mat for his medallion (can knock out the aes sedai) and Logain to break shields.  The second one is that he won't be in danger of being stilled, he will just be shielded.


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>i cant say that i agree, but this is an awesome theory</b>
body:
i think that it is cool that you found these parallels..i meant, its possible, but i doubnt it...but i love this theory


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>who's Lee?</b>
body:
well?...just for us Englih ppl with our hands and feet falling off...please tell me you dont ACTUALLY think that our hands and feet are falling off....ne way, who's Lee?


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>Good observations</b>
body:
I think that you are right.  I should of thought of this myself..<p><br />paladsin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paladin, defender of excellence in morality, literature, and writing</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>Robert E. Lee</b>
body:
Just for you English people who don't know who Lee is, and for Canadians (like me) and everyone else, Lee was the commanding general of the Confederate (southern) forces during the American Civil War (while most of it, not the beginning).  Besides Gudesbrug (or however you spell) where he seriously screwed up, he was a brillent general, who was one of the main reasons why the north didn't crush the south in no time (the other main reason was that the north couldn't get a decent general).


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>RISE AGAIN BOYS RISE AGAIN</b>
body:
First off this is pure speculation,<p>   but if RJ is using a southern hero as his mold for Gareth Bryne then doesn't it hold that he might be one've them folk that wanna see the south rise again (metaphorically speaking that is)? SO using Gareth maybe this is his way of either A) Thorwing us off the trail B) Using an idea where the south wins C) A combo of A&B; D)Saying there will be a second revolt.</p><p>   By the way I like the idea of the two revolts in the towers eluding to a third tower of both genders (the Grey Tower of course). Also I think Logain will prove to be essential in understading Nyanaeves flaw and what she unwittingly did to Siuan (can't wait to see how Siuan reacts, she just might want to make one've her gutting a fish metaphors into a literal thing). For more of this I will soon submit a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Posting for Poppa</b>
body:
My dad who is kown as Poppa Savaunt in some circles has this to say:<p>   On the thought of modeling, Gareth Bryne after the greatest genreal in the history of this country, himself, Robert Edwin Lee (Gods bless him). It is obvious that Jordan plans a thorough and honorable victory. </p><p>   BOOYAH!</p><p>   Fair winds and following seas.<br />   Poppa Savaunt<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just a Couple Problems...</b>
body:
I like the idea of Bryne being a copy of Lee, but what they really share (beyond a horse named Traveler) could be explained through the following: <p>1) Both are greatly loved by their men: what great general wasn't loved by his men? Don't say Grant; he was never that amazing of a general. But being greatly loved by his men also describes Julius Caesar, Napolean, Washington, Kublai Khan, Eisenhauer, Churchill...you get the idea. Great generals inspire confidence and respect in their men. </p><p>2) Gray hair and a beard? They're both old, and beards seemed to be common in WoT. As for build, they are both soldiers. </p><p><br />And there is one notable disanalogy: </p><p>Lee was described as a consummate gentleman, and polite to a fault. He was also an aristrocrat.</p><p>Bryne is an honest man but I wouldn't call him gentlemanly. And Bryne is no aristocrat.</p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Another point to consider</b>
body:
I believe this theory.<p>Another point to consider.</p><p>I believe it's mentioned some point that Bryne was considered worth many, many soldiers if he could be won to their side.</p><p>Lincoln made the same remark, something about rather having Lee than 10 or a 100 thousand soldiers.  =)</p><p>Just a thought<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Bryne PARTLY Lee</b>
body:
Lee was an aristocrate, but not a snob.  That they definately have in common, as well as the beard, the horse, the talent and the loyalty.  <p>One thing which Bryne has which Lee did not was the ability to function at court for as long as he did.  Lee was a simple man when it came to politics, and while he was quite the gambler in the field, he tended to be quiet and self-effacing when in the company of politicians.  </p><p>He only became the commander of all of the CSA armies in 1865, long after Davis had thoroughly lost the war, with Lee respectfully giving him advice, but not telling Davis to go to hell if he didn't let Lee, Longstreet, Johnston and etc. do what was necessary to win the way.</p><p>I just can't believe that Bryne would hesitate for a moment to tell any politician to go to hell in those circumstances, even if that politician was an old friend.  After all, Elayne remembers that her mother didn't even try to get Bryne to do anything he was dead set against.  And Morgase doesn't appear to a shy and retiring flower...</p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>The similarities are strong</b>
body:
Actually, the fact that Lee and Bryne both have beards is not a totally moot point.  True, beards are common in WoT ... but not among Andorans. Recall the awkwardness that Perrin, another Andoran, feels when Faile has him style a beard (a Saldean fashion).<p>Additionally, it has been argued that Bryne is not an aristocrat but, in fact, he and Lee both ARE aristocrats.  Bryne is the Lord of Kore Springs.  Lee was the master of Arlington House Plantation (through his wife, a descendant of George Washington) and was born on Stratford Hall Plantation to an extremely prominant family (signers of the Declaration of Independence and revolutionary war heroes).</p>


created: 2002-08-01 14:10:20
subject: <b>Rebels</b>
body:
I can see the resemblance, Lee fought for the confederacy out of loyalty and love for his state(Virginia), not out of support for the CSA's political views.  Likewise, Bryne is fighting for the SAS out of love for Suian, not any interest on his part in their politics.  The way he reacts with the SAS are like Lee as well, instead of argueing with his political superiors, he keeps his mouth shut and quietly does what he knows is best.  I think with the Lee comparison the only way the SAS could lose is if they don't listen to Lee.  Also, remember that the Bryne had a long history of service to the Queen, before Gareth ran off to general a rebel army because of a woman/Lee's family had a long history in the young United States, but Lee joined a rebel army because of his loyalty to his state.


created: 2002-09-21 19:55:05
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
So instead of this being a war of Brother against Brother, it's Sister against Sister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>Rand will not be stilled</b>
body:
I just want to say that Elaida will not try and still Rand.  All of her dreams are that she will shield Rand, not still him, and the black ajea will be finished off next book.  Also i don't think that Sharina will hook up with Egwene.  Cadsuane is not going to support Egwene unless Rand does, and Rand is not going to get involved with Egwene and co's curren attitude.  What is it with them and thinking Rand should kneel to her anyways? she should kneel to him.  well I'm way off topic now aren't I?


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sharina Sedai</b>
body:
Sharina was a grandmother who has recently been accepted as a novice with the SAS. She is very strong, and has every chance of becoming AS. So why not ?<br />However, I think that the visions will be true, but only some parts. Egwene will be Amyrlin, and Beldeine will be her Keeper. That will be a great scene where Halima gets killed/whatever. But the rest won't happen because the Black Ajah are all going to be stilled, executed and thrown in the Erinin before they can say "Great Lord". And Elaida, is, unfortunately, not Black. Nynaeve has married Lan, they probably will have kids, and there will be a Sharina Sedai, but she may not become Queen of Malkier. In the test, Morgase was still Queen of Andor and Lan and Nynaeve were married in Malkier. I would love to know what happened in Elayne's test-it would be very interesting to find out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just wondering</b>
body:
But wasn't Sharina the gal that had taken over Nynaeves position as wisdom of Emonds Field? The one who was poisoining all the kids?<p>   By the way has anyone noticed the balance with the presentation of the three ring thing, and the first (and winner of the thank the light they didn't take me to Rhuidean [how is that name pronounced?] with the other door, cause I'm still stading award) ter'agnreal door to the Finns in TSR? No not that! I mean the fact that in TDR we have 3 women tested for acceppted, and learn the stories of two of them but not the third. In TSR we have 3 people go to Finnland and have to guess about what happens to two of them because only one is told to us.</p><p>   I like how RJ balances out the most obscure things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Pronunciation guide</b>
body:
You say Rhuidean as follows:<p>Ru (or Roo)<br />i (short i) (like ick)<br />dee<br />un</p><p>Roo-i-dee-un</p><p>At least, that's how I say it...  =)</p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Oh I get it.</b>
body:
SO it's Roo-i-dee-an<p>   I always thought it was Roy D. YAnn (Roi-dyan), a friend of mine pronounces it Rue-i-din (the same guy that pronounces Lan Mandragorans wife as Naive). I also thought Ree-Hue-I-Dan or Re-Hoi-Dee-Yann.</p><p>   How bout the Taveren and other characters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Rhuidean</b>
body:
I've been pronouncing it Roy-Dee-Yann, although I'm pretty sure that's not how the glossary sees it!<br />Also, for years, I pronounced Moiraine "more-rain", although the glossary indicates that it's pronounced "mwa-rain".<br />Egwene = Egg-ween<br />Nynaeve = Ninn-ayv<br />ji'e'toh = zhi-e-toe<br />I could go on for days with my mispronounciations......


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Some of it doesnt match up.</b>
body:
For instance Morgase won't be the queen of Andor anymore and do any of you really think Eliada will still be allowed be allowed to be a Sitter after Egwene has gained Tar Valon. Not to mention would Rand be dragged before the Hall when it is Known he is the Dragon Reborn.


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>the Visions will not necessarily come to pass</b>
body:
What Egwene and Nynaeve saw in the ter'angreal were their greatest fears, rather than prophecies of things to come.  Though there may be elements of truth interspersed in the visions, they should not be taken as foretellings.  Also, Egwene's last vision in particular is untrustworthy, because if you remember something went wrong in it.  In my opinion one of the Aes Sedai who was running the machine tried to kill her/turn her to the dark...fortunately it didn't work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paladin, defender of excellence in morality, literature, and writing</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well.....</b>
body:
The visions in the ter'angreal are oif what might have been, just like Rand's experience using the Portal Stone in TGH.  That's the temptation: to stay and try to enjoy or fix your alternative life.  Whther these alternative continue to exist after the contact with the ter'angreal is severed is, of course, a whole 'nother question.  (Also, what the hell would Nynaeve be doing naked in a maze?).


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>Isn't Halima dead?</b>
body:
I may have interpreted this wrong, but it was my impression that Halima was killed by the remaining three Aes<br />Sedai in the circle.<p>I quote the place where the story in question takes place (pp. 648, Winter's Heart):</p><p>   "Suddenly, Eben felt the blood drain from his face.  What he felt was impossible!  The green-eyed woman<br />frowned in surprise, and he did the only thing that he could.<br />    "'She's holding saidin!' he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power."</p><p>Then I quote Cadsuane, pp. 655 of Winter's Heart:<br />"Greens were used to that sort of thing, but Cadsuane did not like losing two of her people in return for no more<br />than a few singed Forsaken and one dead renegade."</p><p>Now, some would interpret that to mean that only Dashiva (i.e. Osan'gar) was killed in the mess, but keep in mind<br />that Cadsuane does not know who all of the Forsaken are or what they've become.  I guess it's conceivable that<br />Aran'gar got away after killing Hopwil, but I would think she'd kill the other members of the circle as well.  Failure<br />to do so would be just plain sloppy.</p><p>Perhaps Beldeine, etc. being able to identify Halima as Aran'gar is what the author intended, but I think it seems<br />like Aran'gar should be dead.  Other characters I believe dead:  Demandred (note that the last time we saw him,<br />he said, "Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing al'Thor."  [pp. 645]  Seems<br />like famous last words to me), Cyndane (I don't buy the "She would see him die!  She would!" stuff on pp. 649).</p><p>In this light, I think we will very soon be able to resolve the whole "Is Taim Demandred" issue--if Taim is dead in<br />book 10, then he was Demandred.  If Demandred is dead and Taim is not, he wasn't.  If they're both alive, then<br />I'm messed up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Black Ajah</b>
body:
Why is the black ajah being dismissed so easily, as if it is as good as gone in the next book?  It would take a considerable amount of time to discover all of the black sisters in Tar Valon, and their search is about to be interupted by Egwene's little seige.  I don't think they'll get as high as Alviarin by then.  <p>Also Mesaana doen't seem to be stupid.  She would have sent other black sisters to Salidar.  (Why are the sitters there so young?)  This way she plays both sides, either way she's in control of the tower: with Elaida as her puppet or with a hall of black sitters or both.  </p><p>Rand seems to think there are sisters ready to follow him and that Alviarin is one of them.  She could use that trust to catch him.</p><p>IMO we will see this happen after Egwene takes the tower, but before she has the chance to take the oaths.  This may be when Rand knows her anger as foretold by Elaida.<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Correction to Paladin</b>
body:
In Book 3 TSR Alanna mentioned that the problem with the Ter'Angreal had been encountered before and that it resulted from two similar Ter'Angreal being used in close proximity together. This caused Egwene a moment of horrified pause as she realized that Verins little gift had nearly killed her stone cold dead. All because she'd been to proud to turn donw her test for accepted, and stash the ring. Not that one can really fault her due to A) lack of knowldege and B) being very unlikely to get another chance so soon.<p>   That problem during her test was the result of accident and lack of caution. Of course the fact that Egwene's visions were affected by a key to Tel'Aran'Rhiod, could explain why hers seemed to get so close to actual facts. Her vision were definitely more prophetic than any others. And no you can't really count Nynaeve getting married to Lan as a prophecy because that was something that she was working towards already.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 18:16:15
subject: <b>I kind of agree</b>
body:
I had just the same though myself, but with a little different twist.<br />See, I think that the first two visions are of what would have happened if the person had made a different choice at some point.  For exemple, think of Egwene's test.  If I remember correctly, her first vision was of being married to Rand and everything.  Well, that's probably what woiuld have happened if they had stayed in Emond's Field (or maybe they would all have died in horrible pai from an attack by the trollocs?) Who knows, really.


created: 2001-07-09 17:30:33
subject: <b>Rand will bow to no one.</b>
body:
What is this about Rand bowing to Aes'sedai and going to the traitors court?  First of, being The Dragon Reborn (a man phropecied to come and save mankinds A#$ in his time of greatest need) he outranks any Aes'Sedai ever.(those sexist chicks are so concerned with rank anyway).  Second, what legit reason could Aes'Sedai have for trying a man they publicly acknowledge as TDR? As I understand, when men go to the Traitors Court they are almost always stilled afterwards.  Who would be stupid enough to still TDR? Also, if he does get captured what will stop Logaine (he will be the new M'hael after Taim dies, but that is another topic) from bringing the entire black might of the Asha'man against the Aes'Sedai?  The Asha'man would win because the average man is stronger than the average woman.  Guiare Amalasans follower broke into the White Tower and they weren't even using The One Power.<br /><br />And what is those womens obsession with Rand bowing anyway.  They should bow to him.  He is the man. not them.<br />He will bow to no one, and if any women channelers are foolish enough to capture him again he will go absolutely ape when he breaks free.  After that I am sure he will want to purge the world of all woman channelers.  Remember what happened after he was captured by the Reds?  It will be that times 10 if they are stupid enough to capture him again.<br /><br />Anyway I am done with my rant now.


created: 2001-08-04 05:50:12
subject: <b>Agreed!</b>
body:
This is EXACTLY what I have thought myself, down to every last word of it. It would be awfully strange if all these coincidences happened at once. I'm glad that someone else share my thoughts, =)<br /><br />Gandalv the Gray<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 12:57:15
subject: <b>You may be right...</b>
body:
I would like your theory even if it didn't make sense (which it does).  I admit I tend to like theories that allow all the main characters to make it through TG.  I intend to go get my books and re-read the Accepted testing scenes, and maybe a few others.  I also like the notion of Nynaeve being Elayne's advisor when all is said and done.  As for Lan &quot;approving&quot; of Nynaeve's counselorship, she would do it even if he didn't just to spite him.  So why not?  With the rediscovery of Traveling it wouldn't be difficult in the slightest.  Then again, why would the first full AS to become Queen of Andor need an AS counselor?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 16:51:20
subject: <b>hmmmm...what about this?</b>
body:
about the thing with rand being stilled.... perhaps Alvarin (the black keeper u know. spelling?) manages to capture them , but Elaida then realises that this cannot be allowed to happen (the guy IS TDR afterall...) and she shields them long enough for them to break free...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-16 06:44:31
subject: <b>Sorry, skipping back a bit, and off subject...</b>
body:
Well, it just occured to me (i'm not backing it up by evidence or anything but listen).<br />I was reading the comment about the problem in Egwene's testing for accepted. We know from Verin's use of &quot;not compulsion&quot; in the Aiel camp that she's no angel, and she often pretends to be more absent minded than she is. Does anyone agree with me that she might have known about the problem with the ter'angreal, and that egwene was going to be tested, and try to kill her? i don't think she's black ajah, necessarily, but she's not who she seems to be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The almost but not quite totallly not lucid one <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />? Decisions decisions....</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-15 09:18:53
subject: <b>There is more to Sharina Melloy</b>
body:
A few white tower Aes Sedai already hinted the Test Ter'angreal might lead to different *worlds* where events occured in a different way, instead of mere 'visions'. Remember, people got hurt in this Angreal, people disappeared.<br /><br />Sharina could similarly be faced with her greatest fears and stuck inside the Angreal's alternate world. And she missed the exit. Then Nynaeve came and entered the SAME world, she missed the exit AS WELL, *but* she is an awesomly quick learner and learned how to make the weaves after seeing them only once. Either Sharina made use of the exit that Nynaeve made, OR she was able to 'mimick' Nynaeve's weave herself, finally freed from this alternate world and back in the real one.<br /><br />Aside from Verin, I think this person could very well be Gitara Moroso. Remember, when people came for Gitara Moroso (after 3 days of screaming from her room, I seem to remember),  they found NOTHING.<br /><br />A good indication for Verin being Gitara Moroso, is that Uriel (the first Aiel we meet in the book The Great Hunt) says she has the face of a wise one. Now we know that those wise ones entered a Test Angreal of their own, seeing all of the Aiels past and almost screaming with every step they have to take, some being stuck. This is what 'marks' the faces of the wise ones. A similar thing could have happened to Verin, which could be a good hint to her being Gitara Moroso.<br /><br />In any case, I expect to find out much more from Sharina in the next book(s).<br /><br />


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>You are nuts!</b>
body:
read the title again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>NARG for president!!! <img src="images/cool.gif" /></b>
body:
I always knew trollocs are tender somewhere deep in their hearts. *weeps for those trollocs that are evil* <img src="images/frown.gif" /> <img src="images/frown.gif" />


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Narg is the Dragon of the Trollocs</b>
body:
Narg is actually the 'Dragon' of the Trollocs, the 'Main Coconut' as he is named.  he will find beside the Dragon at the Last Battle


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>He who comes with the dusk</b>
body:
Narg is the counterpart of Rand... ie. Rand is a pretty violent guy, thus Narg is he who comes with the dusk, the pascifist part of the Dragon. He will stand with Rand at Tarman Gai´don and when he is united with Rand there can be a peaceful solution to the entire conflict. (Rand, Narg, and the Forsaken settling down for a cup of tea), (isn´t that a lovely picture) <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why Coconot?</b>
body:
Just wondering. Feel free to answer here or via email at Tsallak@yahoo.com<p>I too have a special place in my heart for Narg. I believe that when Rand wounded him, Narg lunged forward not to hurt him, but because he wanted to cover him in Trolloc slobber in gratitude. But that socially inept farmboy poked him really bad with a metal stick. </p><p>The three joke supercards of the game I know of revolve around Bela, Paitr the Darkfriend imbecile (the one who confronts Rand and Mat without any backup, and shouted about the Great Lord of the Dark in a room full of swordsmen) and Narg.</p>


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>True purpose of Narg</b>
body:
First in answer of the Coconut (instead of Leaf) would probably refer to the falling part... ( a coconut falling harmlessly... yeah, right. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /> )<p>I would have naother Theory that the purpose is even deeper than what was mentionned earlier. My guess is that Narg will, in fact, replace the DO when he will retire (not when he'll get killed. He's not that stupid is he? <img src="images/wink.gif" /> )</p><p>Anyway, with his new found immortality, he will have to reform the whole EVIL system. So instead of wars, there will be petitions, demonstrations, debate teams and the rest...  <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Catch ya all later <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Narg father to Elayne´s children</b>
body:
Narg is not only the dounder of a new way of Trolloc life, he is also the father to Elayne´s children. Remember how Elayne and some other AS were attacked by Trollocs in T´a´R? I´m sure there was much more going on between Elayne and her Trolloc (Narg) than just a little wrestling. Shaidar Haran is not only Narg´s son, he is also Gaidal Cain reborn


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Comments on Coconuts</b>
body:
Well, seeing as though the author of this "theory" is my dear old dad, and I was back living at home when he originally penned this, I'm privy to some insider information.<p>Every year more human beings are killed by falling coconuts than by shark attacks and lightning strikes combined.  About 200 people die worldwide from falling coconuts per annum.  Obviously then, whereas a leaf falls in death and does no harm, coconuts try, but tend to fall short of that stated purpose.</p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Bad Ash <img src="images/devil.gif" /><br />That's Mr. Ash 2U!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Finally!</b>
body:
A theory in this place worth reading <img src="images/wink.gif" /> Oh well, it has been a long time... and if geoff would just dig up his m-particle theory we could soon do a toe... (theory of everything) if we are to combine these theories that is...<p>The comment about Elayne and Narg does bring some HTS speculations up again, too... <img src="images/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="georgia">~jonathan</font><br /><br /><i>I mean you harm.</i><br /><br />Please rate this post with the help of Damookster's post rating system. <br /><br /><i>Who cares what a cow thinks?  Seriously.</i> - Elaine</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well now</b>
body:
This is one of the craziest theories that I have yet to find and I like it.<p>   Let us not forget the wolves. See they are the ones who have to be brought about to the idea of truce with an enemy that they have a bloodlust for. Why you ask?</p><p>   Because when the Trollocs were first created they had a nasty habit of stealing the wolves cookies. Even worse they would turn up their Stah'Rhieo ter'angreal really really loud and Play the ancient dark friend revel song "Shadow Dancing".</p><p>   This is why the wolves call Rand Al'Durden 'Shadow Killer', he is prophecised to bring about the end of disco, and put bellbottoms in the past where they belong. He is also prophecised to create a form of market place with minimized portions of necessity items all in the same store so that people can do their shopping easier. This will be the K'Atha'an V'Heniant Store.</p><p>   Perrin is prophecised to start brewing a beer called Young Bull. Mat is prophecised to make gambling and prostitution legal in his new holy city of L'Has V'Hegas.</p><p>There it is yo, a portion of the wolf prophecies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Nargster</b>
body:
Maybe if Narg really puts his mind to it he can discover the truth behind the mystery of Weirataimbeardandred.


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Okay. I'm buying this theory. But...</b>
body:
the question is: Narg has been reborn as whom?  A player of such significance to the Wheel wouldn't be left behind at the Last Battle.<p>So who is Narg now?  I'm looking foward to your theory on this matter.  I'm unclear on the time line involved, but I'm thinking that Narg could very well be...[a sudden computer/internet. malfunction disrupts the rest of this fine post]</p><p>I hope you agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm&gt;Cool Fish&lt;/a&gt;<br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Narg reborn...</b>
body:
Narg has been reborn as The Darkone of course! <img src="images/myrddraal.gif" /><br />(or maybe he is Shaidar Haran?)


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>LOL!</b>
body:
I love this theory <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /><p>Woohoo, my first blackboard comment! <img src="images/wink.gif" /></p><p>Paul <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paul <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Jenn's sweetie. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.&quot; - Sun Tzu</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>Resurrection</b>
body:
Narg WAS killed!  But he was brought back to life by the Dark One, who realizes his importance just as much as we do.  Narg is now inhabiting a human body and goes by the name Moridin.  He will be fighting the Last Battle as surely as Rand will be, and who else would Narg fight but Bela?!  That's right, at the Last Battle the two will show down.<br /><img src="images/viking.gif" />


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well, im not sure</b>
body:
narg was simply a talking trolloc...i belive the aelfinn gave him that gift after he lost his manhood...but who am i to say that?  i have no manhood *giggles*  anyway...cocnuts have tha hard outershell, yet are meaty on the inside...hard, dig, in side, meaty..yes, thats it...


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>What a great theory!</b>
body:
Whoever wrote this must be a genius!   <img src="images/baalzamon.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-08 21:33:01
subject: <b>Allmighty Narg</b>
body:
NARG IS THE GREAT GOD OF ALL HAIRY BEASTIES!!!!!!<br />(go Narg!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 09:13:57
subject: <b>say it like it is</b>
body:
&quot;puffedwheatpterydactyl&quot;................&quot;chewybaccypeanutbutter&quot;....................pinkpurpleperferatedpingpongball.........everything ive ever just felt like shouting in public places .thanx for the influences folks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">uglykidrand<br />&quot;peace favor your sword&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 12:54:21
subject: <b>what the hell?</b>
body:
i think you are just taking too many drugs, because i have never read any evidence in the WoT that could possibly ever back up your theory.  coconuts are non-existant in the world of the WoT, so where did you get that name from, damookster?  narg was slain, can't you get over that fact?  its people like you who give robert jordan a bad name, saying that he's too soft.  narg is dead! get over it! geez.  seriously, you should read the series over again.  that's my input


created: 2001-07-25 00:45:02
subject: <b>The theory</b>
body:
This has got to be the stupidest theory I've ever seen. Everyone knows Narg is Shaidar Haran. Geez, pay attention to the series next time.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Just kidding<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 18:28:50
subject: <b>*sigh* Beware the Invasion of the Assclowns</b>
body:
Just a note there DogStalker:<br /><br />There is a reason why this &quot;theory&quot; is in the <b>Humorous Theories</b> section of the Theory Post.  Humor.  It's supposed to be funny.  It's not supposed to be taken seriously.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 19:21:24
subject: <b>Shaza, you are an ass</b>
body:
hehehehe!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 10:23:32
subject: <b>It's obvious who Narg was reborn as....</b>
body:
Narg was reborn as Olver, and he will atone for his former evil by slaying Shaidar Haran.  <br /><br />And THAT's what book 10 will be about....


created: 2001-09-14 22:46:49
subject: <b>Come on...It's obvious</b>
body:
Narg is obviously Moiraine in disguise!  We never see these two in the same scene, so they can be the same person easily!  We know Moiraine can change her appearance, so why not to Narg?  She also knows how to travel, because after Rand &quot;kills&quot; Narg, Moiraine helps out at the village.  She Travels to her room, then goes outside and helps the villagers!  Also, when Moiraine shoves Lanfear into the portal, Lanfear knows that she was Narg, who will obviously be the next DO too, so she didn't kill her, but instead worshipped her, and when her back was turned, merged into Cyndane.  Unfortunately, after she fell out of the Tower of Ghenjei onto Thom, thereby making her pregnant with Shadar Haran, Moridin caught her/them/Narg, and put them into a mindtrap.  What he doesn't know, however, is that Padan Fain has the real mindtrap and she only acts when Moridin strokes the box.  Fain, in turn, went back to the Bore, and accidentaly dropped the mindtrap in, so Cyndane is actually free, and they are the only ones who can go to the Bore, find out the DO is just a mole with a very good PA system, slay it, and become the next DO, threatening everybody else with balefire, and of course, knocking Rand and all of the other &quot;good guys&quot; unconscious, then drugging them to make them think they won.  I can't believe noone else saw this very obvious ending to the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 14:58:29
subject: <b>narg is RJ</b>
body:
Proof you ask? I have it.<br /><br />But unfortunately because I don&#8217;t went to be blame at copyright by Tor and/or Robert Jordan I can't tall you.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 17:10:08
subject: <b>No, no, no ...</b>
body:
Narg is really the embodiment of the Dark One's purest essence,  (the smell of meatloaf and anchovies washed down with tequila) residing within the furry features of that lovable trolloc we&#8217;ve all come to care so much about. <br /><br />The Dark One would be too embarrassed to assume his true form &#8211; he&#8217;s actually a disgruntled chipmunk in a black sombrero, mask, and tights &#8211; and dons his Narg disguise in the mortal world so as not to get laughed at by women.  <br /><br />He keeps well hidden in his bedroom beneath the Pit of Doom where he&#8217;s set up the sweetest set of Alpine subwoofers and amplifiers.  The red and purple clouds that streak across the sky above Shayol Ghul are really just the fumes that escape from his bathroom.  The dude really should watch what he eats! <br /><br />He uses his divine flatulence to manipulate time and the pattern and to bend the will of the most stubborn of the female forsaken.  With this subtle seduction he was able to talk Bella into &#8220;showing&#8221; her his bedroom &#8220;to check out my wall of European beer bottle caps &#8230; That&#8217;s all, I swear!&#8221;<br /><br />Well we know how that ended up.  Shaitan is now fighting Bella for custody of little Shaidar Hanan.  According to the National Enquirer, Bella has been impregnated again but know one seems to know by whom or what.  I personally suspect it was Pedron Niall.  Promiscuous mare! <br /><br />Any way back the Dark One.  He is insanely jealous of his brother the Creator &#8211; who is really a sagely flying squirrel in a white cape &#8211; cus&#8217; the bast@rd gets all the ladies.  <br /><br />See the Dark One&#8217;s not that bad a guy, really, he&#8217;s just pissed that his chipmunk hands have trouble with the remote control for his new 55&#8221; High Definition TV from Sears.  He hates missing a second of &#8220;Days of our Lives&#8221;<br /><br />So the last battle will be a culmination of the Age-old beef between the Dark One (Narg) and the Creator (Gills Cat).<br /><br />The Kahn<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-09-23 17:39:37
subject: <b>Got it all backwards</b>
body:
Hang on, now, folks, before everyone goes off screaming about Narg, wait a sec.  Spell Narg backwards.  That's right, boys and girls.  Narg, that most intelligent and malicious of trollocs, is in fact, dear ole Gran.  Which means - you got it - we're all the children of Narg!  We're all Shadowspawn!  Run from the Light!  Run I say!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation.<br />-Georges Clemenceau<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-28 16:31:22
subject: <b>Narg rules the world!</b>
body:
Narg is actually in controle of the world right now! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br />The Dark one brought him back to life in a body that looks like Rand! Narg then killed Rand and was called the Dragon Reborn! It all makes every thing clear! Thats the ending to the Wheel of Time series! NARG RULES ALL! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> All hail Narg, the real Dragon Reborn! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-09 19:14:29
subject: <b>he he he</b>
body:
In regard to the coconut thing<br /><br />That's why pumkins don't grow on trees you stupid!<br /><br />Sorry, argument with my friend. Have a nice day!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Rob's wife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think geeks are sexy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> So I went and got my own! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Te quiero mi hermano!<br /><br /><font color="#0099CC">Caboose: Tell him about how his dad got to third base with you!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 12:32:18
subject: <b>Whoa.</b>
body:
You know mook, I haven't been to the theory post in over a year.  Spend a bit of time here this morning.  Two things were affirmed:<br /><br />A) I remember why I haven't been to the theory post in over a year; and<br /><br />B) Your's still is the best theory here.<br /><br />Cheers Old Man. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm&gt;Cool Fish&lt;/a&gt;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-14 19:42:53
subject: <b>Massive Plot Twist involving the Almighty Narg?</b>
body:
Narg will ride Bela into Shayol Ghul armed with a muffin and help Rand fight the Dark One. <br /><br />Oh yeah. That's so totally gonna happen. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kids in the front seat cause accidents. <br />Accidents in the back seat cause kids.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sorry about the mishap...</b>
body:
This theory got posted twice by acident, and one had to go.  Not knowing which one had the comments, I just picked one, and apparently the wrong one.  I apologize for the incovenience.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
I never thought about Elayne's babies being born at Shayol Gul but this would certainly fulfil the prophecy.  <img src="images/smile.gif" />


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>A little too much poetic license</b>
body:
I can't believe that giving birth to Rand and Elayne's children will constitute shedding of RAND'S blood.  Also there is the bit about Rand's blood being shed TWICE, once on the slopes of SG (for mourning?) and once in the Pit of Doom (for new birth?).  <p>On the other hand, since SG is a non-channelling zone (or at least a very dangerous place to channel), I agree with you that the power might not be necessary for resealing the DO.  It is entirely possible that Rand's Taveren and Swordsman skills will be a lot more important there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>A lesson learned</b>
body:
Looking at the spelling on that I really need to stop posting at 3 am when I'm on zero sleep.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>It never says shedding blood</b>
body:
I believe the quote is "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul"<p>Your.Master <img src="images/king.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well if shed twice</b>
body:
If it's shed twice for Mourning and for Birth (or rebirth) then one could wee that as an allegory to Rand dying (with a ressurection fo some kind an almost certainty) his children being born.<p>   Then there's the theory about the Aiel (who are of his blood [well he's of theirs bu let's not pick nits] and will most likely be at the big blow out bash) being the ones to shed blood. This coincides with the whole Remnant of a Remnant thing in the Prophecies of Rhuidean.</p><p>   Also it has been theorised that some of his scarce blood relatives could survive to the last battle and be the ones to get killed. This includes Galad (half-brother), Lord Luc (who is rumored to be his uncle on his mothers side) and I suppose we could go on and list the thin outside chance that his father managed to survive after heading to the blight to run away from the grief over his mothers death. If we have all 3 at the battle then that constitutes 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol-Ghul' even if it is a rather wuss out way to fufill that prophecy in some eyes.</p><p>  With all this on the kettle to simplify that passage to mean Rand Al'Thor physically bleeding at Tarmon Gai'don and nothing else seems kind of limited. RJ loves giving those nifty little twist to prophecies. Reffrence Mat dying only to live again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>I want to see mass destruction!!!</b>
body:
I just want to say I hope this theory never comes true.  I mean, honestly, how lame would that would be?  When it comes to Tarmon Gai'don, let us see the mass destruction we know our good buddy Rand is cabable of.


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>HUH?</b>
body:
Wait you mean that with like a buttload and a half of Ashamon, a crap load of Aes Sedai, two barrels of Craploads worth of the kin, a goodly portion of sea folk wind finders, more armies than most should be able to count off the top of their heads, most of the wolves on earth, a score of dark friends, dreadlords, whatever Forsaken (one or two, or maybe as much as 8 or more), Black Ajah, rouge Ashamon, creepy wild card guys (like Fain and Slayer), bad guys and good guys we aint even met yet and some folks I left out most likely, not to mention THE FREEKIN DARK ONE, all at the last battle, that you won't be happy unless Rand is breakin stuff?<p>   Oh do come on, with all those aforementioned people at Tarmon Gai'don I tink well have massive Chaos and insanity enough with out Rand needing to even tap the flame and the void.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>About Aelfinn/Eelfinn/Moiraine</b>
body:
This is about whether Rand is actually going to save moiraine.  Because i am just a stupid, brainless moron, you don't have to read a wrod i write, but i would appreciate it if you did.  I think Rand is going to reenter the realm of the aelfinn/eelfinn to retrieve moiraine because of Min's viewing that he can't win without a dead lady and because of the chant that Olver says after a game of snakes and foxes with Mat. It goes "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, and iron to bind" Also when mat goes to either realm, his "guide" asks him if he has any iron or instruments of music or devices for making light."<br />Anyhow, that's my opinion.


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Are we sure that she's even alive?</b>
body:
Yeah yeah I know the prevalent theory is that Moiraine is alive in the Land of the sneaky people. However as I recall Mins viewing said that Rand would need her help, not that he'd need her alive. Lanfear died so maybe Moiraine did as well.<p>   So maybe he'll meet find her in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. I would imagine that given the things she did in her life (particularly the last act we saw her do) that the woman would qualify as a hero. So she might be waiting in T'A'R or even end up being called back by the horn of Valere. Now that would be cool to see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 14:32:08
subject: <b>She's alive</b>
body:
I know this is old, and unlikely most folks will be reading into this thread anymore.<br /><br />Lord Savaunt asks if Moiraine has not already fulfilled Min's viewing that Rand needs the help of a woman dead and gone. Considering his question led me down a dark path of thinking....<br /><br />I surmise that the ter'angreal used as the Accepted test doesn't show what WILL, or what even COULD happen, although it's certain that included in the visions are things that MIGHT happen. The reason I say this is that there are cases from both Nynaeve's and Egwene's trips into the rings that MIGHT have been possible at the time, but due to events since then, aren't any longer. The ter'angreal uses your own mind, including your own perceptions and beliefs, to establish some of what you see. Remember it's about your fears.<br /><br />Perhaps Min's viewings have something in common with that. As far as anyone knows, Moiraine is dead. Perhaps her viewing of Rand that says he needs the help of someone dead and gone is her mind's interpretation of what she saw, that suggested dead, even if she can't tell whether it's Moiraine or not.<br /><br />Anyway, if that isn't the case, then it leaves two possibilities:<br /><br />1. Moiraine is the one from the viewing, and therefore IS DEAD.<br /><br />2. Moiraine is alive, and therefore isn't the one from the viewing. This leaves the question of what's next for her.<br /><br />I'd like to believe that Moiraine is the one, and that she isn't really dead, and whatever happened that caused Lan's bond to act as if she'd died, also twisted Min's viewing a tiny bit to confuse belief with reality regarding her being dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 12:33:58
subject: <b>Aviendha's babies</b>
body:
I'd say its Avi's brats that'll drop at TG. At this point in time,post COT, Ealyne's a couple of months along. At the pace the books are going, could TG really be only 8 months away?  Am I alone in wanting the books to go on for far longer than that?? <br />Ok, maybe I need to get a life!


created: 2003-04-25 12:43:03
subject: <b>Finally some one saw the light</b>
body:
Gald to see someone saw the importance that love will probably play at the last battle!  I agree that rand will win not by being the dragon reborn but by being human working on a theory on this myself though it will probably be a good bit of time before its done.


created: 2006-01-20 22:58:51
subject: <b>Strong agreer?</b>
body:
I think this theory is 568% awesome...unfortunately RJ doesn't know, and probably doesn't care what I think, so I'd have to say that this theory, while good, almost seems, well, TOO good... RJ will probably throw in something that no one is likely to think up of, just to spite us...so as long as he doesn't read this theory...<br />Well, he's probably not that maniacal, but since this theory makes so much sence, its more than likely not what RJ will have in Book 12 (But it'd be really cool)!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-A Revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having-<br />-How many people do you know who can do this?  What about this?  Okay, well, there's gotta be something I can do that you've never seen before!-</font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-27 08:35:57
subject: <b>No Power Needed...</b>
body:
It makes sense; I like this one.  And it fits well with Elaida's Fortelling that it's the royal house of Caemlyn that will be instrumental in winning the last battle.  Elaida (it made you think) was mistaken in assuming it was Elayne's line-- and that it would actually be Rand's line -- but maybe it's both of them via their kids...


created: 2008-10-18 08:37:45
subject: <b>hmmm good start</b>
body:
It seems like a theme {Rand was born on dragonmounts slopes}I do like the idea of a birth bringing victory for Rand but it just wont happen that way.And why would elayne be ther if she cant channel.Why put the children at risk.<br />  Dont get me wrong I know as well as anione that the PotD never turn out the way that one would exspect but how can the children benny the cause.couldnt they just do a transfusion?LOL..


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>Makes Sense</b>
body:
I actually agree with this. Whether Sammael did it himself or sent Slayer, either would be immediately recognized by Asmodean, and this plays well into the motive requirement. While it's obvious that any Forsaken (with the arguable exception of Lanfear, who was indisposed at the time) has a good reason to kill Asmo, Sammael's reaction appears to be utter shock at someone not killing him when the opportunity presented itself. That shows his reaction to this situation was "Must...Kill...Wimpy...Gleeman!".<p>That makes two "obvious" candidates (ie, obvious to Jordan) for Asmo's murder, the other being Graendal. </p><p>PS: Could someone edit that theory for grammar and spelling? It's really irritating to read.</p>


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>A few problems</b>
body:
First off, Sammael is toast and is not coming back or being resurrected by the DO.  Second off, Slayer never met Asmodean.  RJ confirmed this himself.  So how could he recognize him?  Precisely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-10 00:00:00
subject: <b>Call me crazy... <img src="images/jester.gif" /></b>
body:
but I still think Lanfear killed Asmo... <img src="images/oh.gif" /><br />(please don't hurt me!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
Response to Critiques:<p>1) Then Sammael could've killed Asmodean. </p><p>2) Even if Sammael died, Sammael was obviously still alive when Asmodean was destroyed, otherwise he couldn't have fought Rand in Crown of Swords.</p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Actually . . .</b>
body:
In a recent booksigning at the Netherlands Fantasy Fair, RJ said that all the Forsaken have heard of Slayer. The URL of the transcript if you're interested is:<br />http://ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=98327


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Re: Actually...</b>
body:
Hey Nevman, in that same report Sander also wrote this:<p>Q (by Emma): Did Slayer meet Asmodean before he was killed? No</p><p>Well gee.  Yeah, all the forsaken know of slayer's evil, and all of the ones currently alive have met Slayer, but Asmodean definitely did not meet Luc/Isam.  He knew about the evil that is the Slayer concept though(You know how Birgitte said how his evil was old and all.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just the facts</b>
body:
From a lot of what I've heard it seem the RJ has stated that all the information to figure out who killed Asmo was in the first 5 books.<p>   It wasn't til Book 9 that we learned that Slayer knows any of the Forsaken, much less that he intimidates them. At the end of book 5 all evidence showed that Lanfear was either dead or unable to return to the world. So the only likely suspects since none of the dead Forsaken had been resurrected and Shadar Haran wasn't in the picture, have to Sammael, Demandred, and Graendal, Mesaana, and Semirhage,</p><p>   Mesaana and Semirhage can be ruled out because there was too little mention of them up to that point. Demandred seemed unsure that Asmodean was truly dead so he's out of the running.</p><p>   That Leaves Graendal and Sammael. My money says Graendal, she's the only one who hasn't served some big and useful purpose.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>just the facts continued</b>
body:
There was physical evidence for a portal that Asmodean notices just prior to his demise. He also feels a chill that male channelers get when sadair has been channeled around them. So if you read what Lord Savaunt has just posted, then maybe Graendal killed Asmodean.<p>The Great Lord of the Dark is unable to reincarnate Asmodean. The only reason I know that this could be possible is if Asmodean had been balefired. I don&rsquo;t think that Slayer has the ability to wield balefire. Therefore SLAYER DID NOT KILL ASMODEAN.</p><p>Can anyone tell me how Graendal couldn&rsquo;t have killed Asmodean?</p><p>If you&rsquo;re still wondering, GRAENAL KILLED ASMODEAN.<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
asmodean never felt a chill i read it over and over looking for the chill. It never happened and how would greandal know rand was in camlyn right then anyway. Female channelers cannot set wards to detect saidin only male. We now she wasnt with Rahvin when rand popped in, so how whould she know HMMMMM?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why he won't come back/What do we know about wards</b>
body:
First off I don't think the Dark One is incapable of resurrecting Asmodean, just that he doesn't want to. Asmodean was a fence straddling side liner, he was always willing to go which ever way was best for him. He was also a coward to boot. The Dark One looks down on failures and betrayals. Even if he was convinced that Asmodean was planning to break free when he could, the fact that he let Lanfear sucker him so bad was too big a failure for Shaitan to dismiss. He may have given Lanfear a last Chance (hence the name Cyndane) because she was a better servant and had shown that she deserved one more shot. Besides if he had been Balefired then wouldn't the words he spoke be erased rather than hanging in the air as he died?<p>   By the way how much do we know about wards? There could have been numerous ways for Graendal to keep tabs on Caemlyn. Either way you cut it she and Sammael are the two most likely suspects to do the deed.</p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-04 14:08:09
subject: <b>Hey Lord Sauvant</b>
body:
Just a quick comment about Asmodean's words.  If you read in the end of TDR when MOiraine kills Bel'al and then read Asmodean's death scene, you will find the two descriptions are remarkably similar.  That is why some people say Asmodean was balefired(along with the big D lumping him in iwth Rahvin and the &quot;final death,&quot; though I don't know if I am still convinced it was balefire.  But Slayer didn't do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 16:59:10
subject: <b>Bump</b>
body:
I was always under the impression that Asmodean's killer just bumped into him took the opurtunity and bumped him off... <br />the killer didnt need to be keeping tabs on him...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>I likes it</b>
body:
I am most definitely one of the folks wanting to see Galad and Berlain hook up. First of all it makes sense that two of the most attractive characters in the books should get together as that is often the situation in life. Secondly their difference in personality would cause so much friction that Berlain will be repaid for all of the stryfe and headaches that she caused Faile and Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>YES!</b>
body:
IMHO, Berelain DESERVES whatever she gets. I don't get the bit about Tallanvor wandering off, though. Speculation, or fact.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>remember mins viewing!!</b>
body:
min`s viewing for Berelain was that she would fall head over heels for a man in white !!!!!!!!!! it`s definately galad!!! wow I`d never even thought of this before .....good call<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>Galad and Perrin</b>
body:
I had never thought of that before, and I think that would be great.  Tallanvor and Galad can only agree to rescue Morgase from the Shaido.<p>I'm really looking forward to see the reaction of Galad toward Berelain.  There will be a lot of blushing.</p><p>But if Galad meets Berelain, so will he meet Perrin.  Very interesting, a meeting between a whitecloak and a "known darkfriend".<img src="images/wink.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Further more</b>
body:
Galad would be meeting a known 'Darkfiend' that was one of the top allies to the right hand man of the man that had allegedly tried to usurp his mother and sisters throne.<p>   OH BOY OH BOY! We's gonna see a fight coming on y'alls. Well maybe not. Galad is the honorable type that'd stop to hear Perrin out before trying to kill. Oh well there should still be enough tension. Especially since Perrins is riding with the bats ass crazy 'Warrior-Formerly-Known-As-Masema' A.K.A. The Prophet and his blood thirsty band of cut throat psuedo-Dragonsworn.</p><p>   I think after all is said and done and Tarmon Gai'don is the closing chapter of Loials book, Perrin is gonna go home and sleep for a season and try to unwind 3 lifetimes worth of tension.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Man in White!</b>
body:
Come on, guys, I thought it was obvious what Min's viewing meant almost as soon as I read it...<p>Don't forget the other points...</p><p>Galad's going to get seriously wounded, and Egwene is going to have to go to him, with Berelain nervously hovering over him...</p><p>Don't remember why I figured this out, but the clues are there...</p><p>One of Egwene's dreams, perchance?</p><p>Wayeth<br />Gaidin to BobbiSedai</p>


created: 2001-05-15 19:55:51
subject: <b>Egwene's Dreams???</b>
body:
Um, I believe you are talking about Gawyn kneeling before Egwene.  She has several different dreams which involves Gawyn.  He kneels before her, says that he wants to become her Warder; he breaks her neck; I believe there is one instance where Gawyn is injured.<br /><br />I know for a fact that in her Accepted's test, she saw Rand injured and begging her to kill him with a dagger, which she refuses.<br /><br />&lt;shrug&gt;<br /><br />Anima Sedai<br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 15:11:28
subject: <b>Of Whitecloaks and Goldeneyes</b>
body:
There's little doubt that Perrin's rescue forces will meet up with Galad's group. That there are still Seanchan roving around loose in that area is a wildcard, but beyond the scope of this post. <br /><br />Galad will face Perrin and Masema, and the tension will be immense. Then either Balwer or Basel Gill will let him know that Morgase is still alive, and has been taken into Perrin's service. Eyes will pop all around at learning that Andor's queen has been posing as a servant. Perrin will be one step further from ever being just a blacksmith, Galad will renounce the treachery and intrigue of the Whitecloaks, and will join Perrin, along with those of his men who are more loyal to him than to the Fortress of Light. This brings Galad and Berelain together (yes, this was obvious from the start), which is more than she deserves. (The trull)<br /><br />Somewhere along the way this entire army runs into the Younglings. Once again blood is about to be shed, since Gawyn couldn't possibly have anything in common with Masema, and this time it's Galad who tells Gawyn that his mother isn't dead. This leaves Gawyn no reason to keep wanting Rand dead, so he and his Younglings join in as well. <br /><br />No sooner does that settle down than they find themselves on the border of Murandy, and meet up with Talmanes and the Band of the Red Hand. Now they have the forces to take on the Shaido faction following Sevanna(with Perrin calling once more on the wolves), and they recover Faile, Morgase and Alliandre.<br /><br />Now, don't look at me that way. What's so far-fetched about an army led by a wolfbrother, a dissilusioned whitecloak, a rabid-dog preacher and Andor's First Prince of the Sword? All under the banner of Manetheren?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 16:35:16
subject: <b>cute!!</b>
body:
well i'd just like to state that i actually did see the whole berlain (sorry but ne spelling mistakes!!) and galad thing happening. and also i just thought call_me_tims theory is soo cute....they really all should combine <br />forces- it would get the job done soo much quicker!!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />-this is my first time...im soo proud of me!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />-<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-02-21 09:39:54
subject: <b>Call_me_Tim's Theroy</b>
body:
I really like your theory!  Although, I dont think everything will happen just as you think, while all the major events are there, it seems hard to believe that everything will just fall into place like that...There will have to be some strife and arguing before everyone decides to follow Perrin; maybe the other two armies will just kinda fall into place in perrin's plans and perhaps they wont even agree to follow untill after the battle with the Shiado...Just kind of speculation on my part, but it seems to make more sense then everything just falling into place that easliy....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 10:53:17
subject: <b>galad</b>
body:
nothing against the theory. Only one comment, Galad is not the son of Morgase but the son of her late husband.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Belgium's best kept secret <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />!! vote for Wesley Clark !!<br /><br />give me a freeking job will ya!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 08:35:31
subject: <b>the younglings?</b>
body:
but aren't the younglings somewhere between tar valon and camelyn? <br />how will they meet up with perrin who is in ghealdan?


created: 2002-10-17 13:00:41
subject: <b>Sorry Ragnarok but...</b>
body:
Galad think about Morgase as his own mother. Everyone know he's Tigraine's son and Rand halfbrother.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-01 19:49:16
subject: <b>yeah but in mins viewing it ....</b>
body:
it coulda also meant a gai'shain (forgive the spelling)- so it doesn't nesasaraly (again with the spelling) lol= mean that its going to be Galad- but most likly that it will be so yeah - hot guy meets pretty gurl kinda thing.


created: 2003-02-27 09:47:03
subject: <b>Well, Now that it is Post-CoT</b>
body:
We know that Tallanvor did get somebody, only it was the Seanchan instead of the Whitecloaks. At least Galad was mentioned in the book.  <br /><br />-RSH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RSH</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Confucious say: Man who go through airport metal detector sideways, is going to Bangkok.&quot;<br /><br /><i>Superman to MatsEyeView's Clark Kent</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-11 23:45:36
subject: <b>on cleanliness and colors (oh and thrones)</b>
body:
lol call_me_tim's theory is nice but a bit too clean for me. I don't for one see Gawyn entering this picture anytime soon. I'd much rather have him *finally* figure out Egwene is the Amyrlian (yes I realize I just spelled it wrong) and going back to Caemylen hopefully to get to what he's *supposed* to be doing (a.k.a. being First Prince and commanding Elayne's armies)<br /><br />I would also like to mention that last we checked, Faile and a couple of others were ga'shaain themselves and Perrin and his army (including Berelain) were conveniently close by. So her falling for a man in white just gained another possibility to me.<br /><br />Private theory of mine...I don't think Elayne in fact *will* be ruling Cairhien (could be kinda hard since her first responsibility is to Andor) and Gawyn will be quite busy being First Prince as well, so the task may fall to Galad. Incidentally, doesn't he have more right by blood than Elayne anyways?<br /><br />Tell me what you think.<br /><br />L8RZ!!!<br />


created: 2004-02-28 14:02:58
subject: <b>Claim to Cairhein</b>
body:
This doesn&#8217;t really have anything to do with this theory as such, but I wanted to comment on Min_Cauthon&#8217;s comment that Galad has more right to rule Cairhein by blood than Elayne.  Galad&#8217;s only claim to the throne of Cairhein is by the blood of his father, who is also Elayne&#8217;s father, therefore they have the same claim to the throne.  I think you&#8217;re right though that it will be hard for Elayne to rule over both Andor and Cairhein and Andor is obviously her first priority.<br />


created: 2004-05-01 00:36:14
subject: <b>Claim to the Sun Throne</b>
body:
Another possibility is Moiraine Sedai's look-a-like cousin Caralain may have a claim to the throne. Min saw a crown on Darlin Sisnera's head and she saw the two of them marrying &quot;after she (Caralain) led him on a merry chase&quot;.


created: 2004-08-25 15:20:55
subject: <b>Seanchan to the rescue!!</b>
body:
I may be wrong because it has been alittle while since I read book 10 but aren't there inuendoes ( sp!) leading up to the Seanchan helping Perrin rescue Faile and Company?<br /><br />I would also like to comment on the whole situation with Gawyn and Galad.<br />First let me say that Galad is in company with the Black Ajah right now somewhere close to Tar Valon. Egwene is captured but we don't know who has done this. I think it is these black sisters that are near/with Gawyn. This sets him up to either A: rescue Egwene or B: Kill her or C: inadvertanly help kill her by not realizing what is going on. Egwene dreams about all these things happening with her and Gawyn. I honestly believe that he will rescue her. So there is no way he can help Perrin with his problems he is to busy and to far away.<br /><br />Next I believe that Galad may help Perrin.maybe this is once again wishful thinking for everything to fall in place in time. <br /><br />Let me just add also that yes I do believe that Berelain and Galad will end up together. Who knows maybe he will rule Carhien. That would definetly make Berelain want him more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Secrets of Tel'aran'rhiod</b>
body:
I like your ideas, Kennycat.  Regarding your theory that Cadsuane and/or Verin may possess knowlege of "pattern embroidery (or making & taking)", as you've dubbed it, I've come up with one important tidbit of supporting evidence.  Not only did Verin have possession of a ring ter'angreal, but she also has possession of Corianin Nedeal's secret notes of her studies on Dreaming and Tel'aran'rhiod.  As we know, Corianin Nedeal had the greatest talent as a Dreamer in Aes Sedai memory, and Verin is privy to all of this woman's knowlege and experience.  As such, if there is such an ability as "pattern embroidery", Verin likely knows how to do it.  Additionally, its worth noting that when Verin gave the ring ter'angreal to Egwene, she considered giving her Corianin's notes as well, but then made a conscious decision to hold them back.  Perhaps passing on the secrets of "pattern embroidery" to such a young girl was too dangerous a prospect to entertain.


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Heroes of the Horn were only partially in the waking world at Falme.</b>
body:
The Heroes of the Horn were only partially in the waking world.  This explains how they were able to do damage without taking damage.  In the same way Rand's Battle with Ishy probably took place in this halfway environment.  How Ishy could get there and why I don't know.  Maybe bad guys are bound to <img src="images/wink.gif" />.<p>Good Catch with the horses though</p><p>RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Tel'aran'rhiod and Taimandred</b>
body:
As I've always seen it, when the Horn was sounded the Heroes did not come out of T'A'R; rather, T'A'R extended itself into the real world and brought the Heroes with it, along with their horses, weapons and whatever else they cared to imagine. In the absence of the Horn, this effect is not achievable.<p>Changes sustained to a person will last, if they are the result of something being done to them and not just imagined. Matter can be removed from T'A'R if it is associated with such a change - for instance, Rand's splinter in book 1 - but will disappear as soon as it is removed from the person's body.</p><p>'Conjuring' then can be done, but only under very limited conditions, and would not be particularly practical for use.</p><p>And Taim is Demandred, damn it.<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Drawbacks</b>
body:
Well all of the really cool talents (teleportation, erasing some butthole from existence etc.) seem to have at least on or two major drawbacks. No with the exception of the Heroes of the Horn we know that no one can just slip in and out of T'A'R with out suffering consequences. SO maybe that extends to making things and taking them to the real world. It may infact be necessary to go into T'A'R in the flesh to do so.<p>   If that is the case then SLayer may have a trick up his sleeve (one that he possible is unaware of) that could really screw up someones day. I'm really hoping to see more of this deranged guy. C'mon I can't be the only guy that wants to see him throw down with Fain<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>hmmm...problem</b>
body:
well , let me see, the major problem with this theory is that it hinges on the horses who walk on water. The only people who can create things which enter the real world from the world of dreams seem so far to only be heroes of the horn . What is this telling you ???? perhaps that the horn creates the horses and brings the heroes to sit on them<br />,it is after all magical so unless Verin and Cadsuane can replicate the powers of the horn I doubt they`ll be doing much "weaving" ... but a very nice pick up on the horses i hadn`t noticed!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>'Scuse me a moment while I pull the Choedan Kal outta my...</b>
body:
This brings up a little point.  You can create anything you feel like having in T'A'R... even ter'angreal (how Nyn captured Moggy.)  So, why doesn't anyone conjure up one of the keys to the sa'angreal?  Or maybe conjure up a medallion such as Mat has?  (well, limited info is probably the reason there.)<p>But picture the end of TFoH... Rand vs Rahvin... Rand is lashing out wildly, Rahvin says "ah to hell with it" and conjures up some big mofo ter/angreal and burns Rand and the 5 miles near him.</p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ah but also remember</b>
body:
That channeling in T'A'R is very dangerous. If you have a Choedam Kal in the dreaming using it would require that you constantly focus on it's shape and such. Using it would take so much focus to not get lost in the power that devoting the mental stamina to keeping it real would be nigh impossible. This would explain why the Forsaken have not used things like that in their dream running shennanigans.<p>   Oh and one more BTW to keep in focus is that Egwene creating a facsimile of Bela in T'A'R is small potatoes. Recall that Elayne and Nynaeve accidentally made a unicorn (or something described as looking like one) when they were goofing around and had to make a great effort to get away from it.</p><p>   I'm still waiting to see if someone makes a theme park in the land of dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Back up a little</b>
body:
Okay, I'm afraid we're working from some erroneous assumptions here...<p>1.  The heroes of the Horn are not products of T'A'R, they merely hang out there while waiting to be called by the Horn.  They know T'A'R well cause they spend thousands of years there, but they really have nothing to do with it.  As far as their horses, or any horses, are concerned, what doesn't happen in T'A'R is a relections of a horse in the real world.  There is nothing keeping the heroes from having a full stable in whatever ethereal palace they all hang out in when they're not hassling dreamwalkers.  Hell, Rand or any other channeler could take a horse into T'A'R through the gateways they use to visit in the flesh.  Also, remember that the horses only appear when the heroes are "powered" by the Horn and have all kinds of neato abilities... maybe the horses only exist under the Horn's influence and therefore are completely unconnected to T'A'R.</p><p>2.  With the horses disposed of, we are left with only two instances of anything physical surviving into the waking world: the thorn in Rand's palm in TEoTW (where I think we can safely assume that RJ simply hadn't elaborated the properties of T'A'R thoroughly), and Nynaeve bringing a thorn through each hand from the Accepted tester, and this one may or may not be connected to T'A'R.  The fact that they are both thorns opens a can of worms I do not want to touch.</p><p>3.  As far as hair, cuts, or anything else, RJ has always been explicit and consistent that effects on the dreamer's body are mirrored in the waking world.  Affecting physical objects is impossible... as vetted by Moghedien when she was "scared straight" during Rand's battle with Rahvin.</p><p>Nuff said.  Nice effort on the theory, tho.<img src="images/aessedai.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>I disagree......</b>
body:
I dont think that anything that you make in the dream world can be brought into the real world because, if it were possible then could you just go into the dream world and make hudreds of super sa'angreal. With that many super Sa'angreal then the dark one would win, or on the other hand if rand did it then he would win. But if they both did it they would probobly destroy the world.<img src="images/dead.gif" /><p>I dont know if any of this makes any sense or not, its late and I have a really high fever, so If it makes absolutly no sense dont blame me.<img src="images/tongue.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>An Amazing analysis!</b>
body:
It was long but well put together.<p>I think that even if that was not what RJ had in mind for the series he should read this theory and _make_ it happen anyway.</p><p><img src="images/smile.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>I knew Cadsuane would teach them to embroider! <img src="images/wink.gif" /></b>
body:
Well, your theory had many different points, and though I had not thought much about those phantom horses or the ability to pull 'stuff' out of Tel'aran'rhiod, it's a very cool idea.  But maybe this re-weaving thing has some beef to it.  It would give Rand the edge he needs to win Tarmon Gaidon AND the trick to survive the whole thing.  Hmmm, something new to think about, finally!


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Then again....</b>
body:
Maybe they can use this trick of bringin things from Tar'Aran'Rhiod to the real world for other more practical purposes. <p>   Like say creating women to hang around for a night, keep a man company and go home without asking to cuddle after words.</p><p>   Making sure that no man has to go without two river leaf and beer.</p><p>   Getting all the best prices without getting gouged by some merchant that won't even be around for more than three paragraphs.</p><p>   Finding a way to peek into the white tower and discover the answer to that age old question that has plauged male channelers for ages. What does the Amyrlin Seat look like when she first wakes up in the morning?</p><p>   Watching a game of maidens kiss without having to explain any unsightly scars in the morning.</p><p>   Getting a copy of the book "How to understand Women/Aes Sedai" that would be a best seller across the world. Even the Seanchan would buy it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 10:24:38
subject: <b>Woah...</b>
body:
<br /> I have NO idea how you manged to go from horsies to sealing up the bore... but it was really interesting to read! I doubt even RJ considered these possibilities <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Wouldn't it be interesting he actually came out here to get his ideas? :-P Ok, I'm stop now. (By the way, you didn't really expect me to say anything constructive, did you? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Vicky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Random Anonymous Egwugwu<br />First sister and sul'dam to Sun and Moon<br />I'm going to insert a good quote here.... as soon as I think of one.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 22:14:01
subject: <b>Pointless</b>
body:
I think everyone is reading a little too far into this. It is probably a mistake. RJ was thinking &quot;Hmmm.. i need to get this hero out far enough to shoot her bow at a fleeing ship.... oh, how about a horse!&quot; and then later on &quot;Hmmm... how do i explain the fact that people don't get attacked by some rabid wild beast everytime, and also avoid running into roaming animals in T'A'R... oh, I know, no animals.&quot; I don't think he was conciously putting this two things together to reveal some great plot twist... RJ is subtle, but not that subtle. Still, now that its been pointed out, i'm interested in seeing how he will deal with it. I personally think he'll let it drop


created: 2001-07-04 02:49:36
subject: <b>Not Horses, All terain assault vehicles</b>
body:
That was a really...well, weird theory. A bit of everything chucked together.<br />The Horses &amp; the Heroes. Well we are told that the heroes are spun out &amp; they wait in TAR. The fact of the matter is that they are not simply returned to the world of the living. The fact that the 100 or so Heroes fight back not 1, but 2 rather large armies &amp; are not hurt &amp; Brigitte's arrows destroy a whole ship, says that they are not human, or are a super enhanced version of themselves. Sort of Super Arthur et al. So their embodiment simply suits the situation.<br />Aslo, who says that all heroes are human?!? I think that Mandarb is a pretty pivotal character! Why couldn't horses, esspecially the horses of these heroes, be determined Heroes and thereby be spun out when the Horn is blown.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer


created: 2001-07-19 06:26:06
subject: <b>What Cadsuane will teach</b>
body:
Cadsuane has actually said that she will learn Rand to laugh and cry again. She said that in PoD or WH, I'm not sure which.<br />When it comes to the horses...I got lost there...


created: 2001-10-09 16:18:08
subject: <b>I don't agree with the theory</b>
body:
Most of what I'm about to say has already been said above, but summaries are nice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />1st:<br />Horses aren't banned from TAR, it's simply said that some animals can't venture inte TAR by themseves.<br />But nothing is said about people bringing them into TAR.<br /><br />2nd:<br />When someone blows the horn, the heroes don't return in flesh. When you read about Falme, that's quite obvious.<br /><br />Conclusion:<br />The fact that the heroes of the horn rides weird horses doesn't in any way hint that you should be able to produce real things in TAR and then bring them into the real world.<br /><br />now, isn't that a rather nice summary? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 20:40:51
subject: <b>Cadsuane's Teachings</b>
body:
As stated in the post above the last one, Cadsuane ISN'T going to teach Rand or the Asha'man no stupid embroidery. Besides Cadsuane saying that she'd teach them to laugh and cry again, to teach them that they're human, I think it was Min who had a viewing of it or Egwene or Perrin had a dream or something.<br /><br />So no one mention EMBROIDERY on any theory EVER again!!!<br /><br />AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


created: 2002-08-13 16:16:10
subject: <b>Damn....</b>
body:
I liked that theory, so well written, constructed, thought out and so on...rock on, it would be great if you were right, very interesting twist<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 19:21:32
subject: <b>just a small point and my two cents</b>
body:
the horses and thorns aren't the only things that my have come out of TAR.  don't forget the silver arrow that was thrown out when birgitte was ejected from TAR by moghedien.  <br /><br />this fact suggests it might be possible to create things in TAR and bring them out.  much like forming a gateway to go into TAR, you form one from the inside and throw stuff out.  <br /><br />this does seem as though it may be a lost talent of sorts.  i doubt the wise ones know how to do it, but if they do, i would think that they consider it forbidden.  <br /><br />aparently moghedien knows how to do it.  she used the trick to throw out not only a silver arrow, but also a hero of the horn.  if only the girls had seen the problem and asked moghedien how to do it when they had her under control.


created: 2003-01-30 10:42:10
subject: <b>Seems a bit of a stretch to me</b>
body:
Seems like you might be reaching a bit.  A lot of conjecture from just a small wonder.  The initial question is a good oen, where do the horses come from???<br /><br />Creative and interesting, but I doubt it will happen<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on. <br />-A thought by Susan Sto Helit<br />Hogfather<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>AoL</b>
body:
I thought the Age of Legends was the 2nd age.  Didn't Herid Fel explain this whole thing in the books?  Maybe I'm all turned around backwards.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <b> Access </b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>The 3rd Age</b>
body:
Well from my understanding the Age of Legends was the Third Age. The Age of Becoming as I call the current time setting of the series is the next Third Age, or the Third Age come again. I say this mainly because all the Future Tense refferences seem to be coming from the Fourth Age, and the books start out talking about the present being the Third Age.<p>   There's one thing that doesn't make sense though. It's been stated that by the time an age comes around again that all knowledge of that former age has been lost, even myth is forgotten. So If the Ages of Legend and Becoming were both manifestations of the 3rd Age, how can anyone remember them?</p><p>   It seems to me that there have been 3 major ages at most since Lews Therin died. The Age of Rebuilding that ended with the Trolloc Wars, The Age of the Consolidation that ended with the Death of Hawkwing, and the current Age of Becoming. So that would place the death of Lews Therin at the end of the 7th Age.</p><p>   Also one could say that this is the next Age following the end of the Age of Legends. With that Age being the Second Age then it makes sense that The Age of Becoming woulbe be the third age.</p><p>   However another way to look at things would be to state that this is the dawn of the 2nd age after the end of clean Saidin. That makes the Age of Legends the First age, the time between that and now the 2nd age, and the Age of Becoming the 3rd age.</p><p>   Either one of these fits better than this being 7 ages past the breaking and people still rembering even scant details of the time of Lews Therin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Age of Legends is 1st</b>
body:
If the dark one was sealed away at the beggining of time by the creator, then that time would have been the 1st age. No one in the original first age would even have heard of him because he wasnt freed yet. This is just like the AoL. <br />The time from when the dark one was freed until the end of the breaking would have been 2nd age and from then on its the 3rd.<p>but most likely by the time the 5th age comes around they will be calling it the 2nd or something else so why bother about naming ages.</p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>so was the bore drilled for each age?</b>
body:
we know that Mierin/Lanfear drilled into the DO's prison, and that has only happened once in anyone's memory; Thus, this is all one age, not one turning of the wheel, because combining this with the rebirth of Lews Therin into Rand, we still are not seeing duplication of events that would lead me to think there's a new cycle coming.  I just can't rectify the whole drilling into the bore thing (it supposedly was whole and untouched at that point, no?) with the cyclical nature of this world.   It must mean that in a later age, the Dark one gets loose, so we can completely mend the bore, instead of just patch it, so that Mierin can re-create the bore, and so on and so forth.  Did that make any sense?  I feel like Herid Fel (before he was ripped into pieces...)


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Back to reading</b>
body:
Sorry but you got all of it wrong, fella!<p>Lews Therin was NOT born in the previous third age! He was born in the Age of Legends (maybe the Second, I don't know, but clearly NOT the third!). In every third Age, the Dragon Seals Back the Dark One in his prison, he doesn't set Him loose!</p><p>Get back to reading...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>a contradiction</b>
body:
Ok, we know two "facts" that contradict each other.  First, every time an age comes, the last time that age had come was completely forgotten.  It says this at the beginning of every book so far.  However, we also know that the Dragon Reborn will lock away the DO in every third age.  Or so Herid Fel tells us.  However, since LTT was the Dragon, and he locked the DO away, how come everybody remembers (or has heard stories about) him? He's a legend, but not even a myth yet.  <br />Something just doesn't add up. The only thing I can think of is that, either Herid was wrong, and the Dragon is spun out as needed, regardless of the Age, or something else happened, though, I can't really fathom what.  <br />Thank you for your time.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Slight re-evaluation</b>
body:
First off I think Fel was wrong about some things. Recall that he never really grasped the fact that Rand was the man acknowledged by the world as the Dragon. He may have been the most brilliant man of the Age of Becoming (and someone that Verin could talk with for hours on end), but he was still just a guy.<p>   Secondly I think that this age be it the 2nd or 3rd since the bore is following it's own pattern. It is a repetition of the last 3rd age. In the previous first age (AoL) The dark one may have been partially freed and then partially sealed, a problem that would have been solved in that cycles third age.</p><p>   Yes by the way I agree that the Dragon is born into any time that needs him. This would coincide with the theory that Guaire Amalasan was born to facilitate Aruthr Hawkwings rise to power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>ages..and ages</b>
body:
i thought the age of legends was the 3rd age , then the age of madness(4th)then the age of rebuilding (5th) then the age of hawk wing the consula,,,what ever (6th) and now the age of prophecy (7th) about to turn back to (1st) when rand wins the last battle.....it`s all academic really the wheel of time is round so you can`t actually tell which is first and which is last "there are no beginnings in the wheel of time "<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Order of the Ages</b>
body:
Okay, this is how I see the Ages falling into place:<br />   1st Age: Age of Legends, ends with the Breaking<br />   2nd Age: AB, ends with the Trolloc Wars?<br />   3rd Age: Our current point of interest (as indicated at the beginning of every book), will end with the "Last" Battle, and then. . .<br />   4th Age: the Next Age, where the survivors of Tarmon Gai'don will repopulate the world. And if you've any doubts about people surviving, just check the little bits of music and poetry that RJ puts in at the beginning and ending of the books: they're (all?) from the Fourh Age. This could be a wrong conclusion, or a coincidence. But then, have we ever known RJ to put something in that was "just" extraneous information?


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>What are you people smoking?</b>
body:
First of all the age Rand is in right now is the fourth age.  The Age of Legends is the third age.  This is the first age since the breaking of the world.  The Trolloc Wars, Rebuilding, War of The hundred years, and virtualy everything that they have any details about whats so every is in this age (THE FOURTH)


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Definitive answer</b>
body:
Earth now is the first age - Thom calls it the Age of Myths.<p>The Age of Legends is the second age.</p><p>(Remember, memory fades to legend to myth to forgotten?  We don't have any 7th age knowledge, that's the point of forgetting)</p><p>The current age is the third age, which I like to call the Age of Memories.</p><p>The Wheel of time includes quotes from the fourth age, a short bit of second age info, but it takes place at the end of the third age.</p><p>This is proven without doubt and said flat out throughout the books - I won't bother proving it, just trust me, please <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p><p>Your.Master<img src="images/king.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>What we know</b>
body:
1: This current age (The Age of Becoming if you will) is the Third Age (Says so in the beggining of each book duh)<p>   2: The world will survive in some fashion to see a Fourth Age. We know this because of Fourth as historical and allegorical reffrences. Such as:</p><p>   Blind woman Deaf man Jack daw fool<br />   Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!</p><p>   A childrens ryme from the fourth Age.</p><p>   We can easily know that the term Lord of Chaos will most likely become a historical reffrence to Rand. Like the Lord of Morning was for Lews Therin. It hasn't attained common usage yet so we know that this isn't the 4th age (even with out being told at the outset of each volume).</p><p>   3: The Age of Legends was an age previous to the 3rd age (yeah again duh).</p><p>   All that remains in contention is whether or not the time between the breaking and the birth of the Dragon Reborn is a separate age or split between the ages of Legend and Becoming.</p><p>   Once we know that we can say if the Age Of Legends was the 1st or 2nd Age. It would make more sense if the Age prior to the Age of Legends was the the 1st age. That way we have Myth, Legend, and the memories of the early parts of the Age of Becoming.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>There we go...</b>
body:
I have to heartily agree with Lord Savaunt in the posting right above this one.  He hit it right on the head with every one.  I can't really believe there was this much confusion on the subject.  Um, I always just assumed the turning of an age is brought about by some catastrophic world-wide war.  So in this turning of the wheel it would be: Age 1, then Age of Legends, then the Third Age (What's with the "Becoming" and "Memories"?) Then all those kid songs and poetry in the ends and beginnings of the books are from the Age after the current Third Age.  Which would make it the Fourth Age... four comes after three you see.  I liked that one guy that asked what we were smoking.  I guess he doesn't like to read all about the wind being a beginning at the start of each book. <img src="images/wink.gif" />


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Age of Becoming</b>
body:
That's my phrase for the current 3rd age where the story is taking place. With a neat title like Age of Legends I figured the present day could use one as well. <p>   The Age Of Becoming seems to fit. A lot of new things are being built, a lot of old ways are being revised or tossed out the window, entire cultures are under going vast restrcuturing. The world is becoming something else entirely and all at once.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>I think you people messed up....</b>
body:
I think Raserei was the *only* one who managed to understand what I was talking about. I didn't take enough time to find every exact age and make sure on everything, I was just trying to get my facts out in the simplest way I could think of. I was trying to say just what Raserei saw; Rand may be born into the wrong Age or something, and then Randland will be royally screwed. Now why are you all arguing over something as stupid as which Ages belonged to which, and stuff? I mean, come on! Its *just* a theory!<br />The Shadows that lurk behind,<br />The Shadow Asha'man  <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br />(think thats a nice ending?)


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Because....</b>
body:
To answer your query about why we all went off on an argument as to which age it is and what periods go into what age the answer is a simple one:<p>   Silly debates over semantical terminology involving minor points is what keeps this board going. It's also what makes it so much fun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Before the Age of Legends</b>
body:
Someone said (I believe Elyas) that the wolves talking to men is older than Aes Sedai, older than the power.  Ergo there must have been an age before the Age of Legends.  If the Age of Legends follows this First Age with nothing in between we are the Third Age (I thought at the end of Winters Heart it was referred to by someone as Age of Illusion).  Hawkwing and the Time of the Covenent were not ages, although I am not sure if the Time of Madness was an age or not. Just my 6 cents worth to the theory of Ages.  Regarding the hacked up dude, I first though he was talking out of his ass regarding the wheel and the bore being sealed completely since no man is the creator, but then I never though Saidin would be cleansed so what do I know.  I doubt he was killed for his knowledge of the Ages.  He made a note (kept by Min) that said 'Strength and Order for stability - will explain later' (not exact quote).  Obviously his theory on keeping the seals intact, and why Demandred was told to let the Lord of Chaos rule.  (Probably not the right place for this theory, but its my first time here <img src="images/wink.gif" /><p>Mojo<br /></p>


created: 2001-05-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Slowing the Wheel...</b>
body:
If I recall correctly, many of the heroes who are "reborn" are spun into the pattern by the Wheel and not the Creator.  This idea comes up several times within the series, especially in Moiranie's dialogue.  It seems to me that the fulfillment of different prophecies is relative to the position of the Wheel, and the speed of the Wheel is irrelevant to when these events occur.  If the turning of the Wheel is what allows anything to change, wouldn't the Dark One be bound to it as well?  That would definitely explain why he'd be trying to destroy it.<p>My question regarding this theory is this:  If the Dark One could slow the Wheel down a little each time it passed, wouldn't that cause an equal delay in all the fated events of the Wheel, such as spinning out the "reborn" heroes?  In other words, if the dark one could slow the turning of the wheel, wouldn't that equally slow the occurence of all its prophecies?  If so, then everything would still seem to play off "on time" and no net change from the normal would be observed, as anyone bound to the Wheel, including the DO himself, would not be able to recognize any time shifts as such.</p>


created: 2001-12-10 15:18:43
subject: <b>Age after Age</b>
body:
Okay, the way things looked ot me, the Age we are reading about is the 3rd Age.  The AoL was the 2nd.  The Dragon appeared in each of these.  So, the way it seems to me, the Dragon is reborn every age.  Slowing the wheel down wouldn't matter, because he's born every age anyway.


created: 2002-01-11 23:15:11
subject: <b>Pay attention class!!!!!!</b>
body:
okay.... slowly now people..... the first age is OUR age.  the WOT world is our world   Hence the three-pointed star inside a circle (mercedes insignia) made of mysterious metal (chrome) found in the Panarch's museum (4th book)from the age before the AoL..... the AoL  is the 2nd age and the present age is the 3rd age..... not that hard to figure out....duh


created: 2002-01-24 22:46:53
subject: <b>ltt's age was the third age ours is the third age.</b>
body:
It says this sort off in the first of eotw.  correct me if im wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 22:08:14
subject: <b>RJ isn't optimistic</b>
body:
He thinks there is going to be nuclear war!  At least that was my interpretation of the giants fighting with lances of fire.  Also what about the portal stones?  Weren't they from before the AoL?


created: 2004-10-03 23:11:09
subject: <b>Seriously, people...</b>
body:
If you are going to argue about WOT philosophy, get the order of the Ages right!!  (1st age: us.  2nd age: Age of Legends.  3rd age: from the Breaking to Randland time.  THERE WAS NOT A CHANGE OF AGES AFTER THE TROLLOC WARS OR WHATEVER YOU PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.  Fourth age: the Age where all those weird prophecies at the beginning of the books come from.) The Wheel of Time is cyclic, with the DO trying to whack the world consistently and periodically, culminating in a cataclysmic battle at the end of each Age.  The Wheel spits out the Dragon and the Heroes when it needs to prevent the DO from ending all the balance that the Creator formed the world on.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>What if Fenris=Perrin?</b>
body:
I have also associated the severed hand with the Fenris myth, but I always thought it had something to do with Perrin... I don't know why he would chop off Rand's hand, but maybe it will be necessary, or... I don't know.<br />Rand and Perrin haven't been getting along so well lately, maybe there will be some kind of power struggle?


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>No hands</b>
body:
I just think that it is an interesting thought that several major fantasy works have a character that is lacking a hand.  Tolkein wrote of Beren who lost a hand in battle, and the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen Lawhead has a character called Berek Half-hand.  If Rand loses a hand, it would continue this odd phenomenon.  I wonder if those authors were all influenced by that norse myth?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>More information regarding Odin & Tyr</b>
body:
First the easy one, Odin. You are on the right track, but left quite a few things out so here we go:<br />Similarties btwn Mat & Odin:<br />Odin hung from the tree of knowledge. Mat also hung from a tree, and in doing so gained past knowledge. He even made a comment to the fact (cannot remember what book)<br />Odin's weapon was a spear.  Mat has his black hafted spear.<br />Odin's symbol was a raven. Again, Mat has been linked to the raven (carved into the spear, etc)<br />Odin wore a wide brimmed hat (again with Mat)<br />Odin gave up his eye to the Tree of Knowlege for more knowlege. It has been foreshadowed that Mat will also end up giving his eye for something.<p>Now for the similarties betwen Rand & Tyr. Unfortunately, there is little known about Tyr. What is known is the following:<br />Tyr was the God of Swords (blades) & Justice.<br />(Fits in with Rand's becoming a blademaster and the hard choices he has made to dispense justice over all of the land and countries he holds)<br />Tyr also did lose his left hand. In one of Min's (I believe) viewings she saw a bloody hand. Easy link there.<br />Tyr was also believed to be the First Among the Gods. Another link in that Lews Therin was known as the First Among Servants.</p><p>Anyhow, that is all I have for now.</p><p>Lord of Swank</p>


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>More Simulations Between Mad & Odin</b>
body:
i read the Norse God thing about Odin, and i cant add much cause Lord of Swank added most of them, but we can prolly take some info from Odin. <p>Odin has two Ravens on his shoulders. Thought and Memory. They flew out in the morning and came back at night to tell him what happened. </p><p>Mat is going to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons and will gain control of the Seekers of the Truth through this. Their symbol is a raven tatooed on each shoulder.</p><p>This also explains why Tuan wanted to buy Mat's spear-thing so bad. She recognised the two ravens, and connected it to the Seekers. </p><p>This may not happen, but Mat could end up poseing as a Seeker to find out what he wants, saying his spear marks him as a higher ranking Seeker, so much so that he doesnt need the tatoo's. just a random thought.</p><p>Odin lost his eye to gain knoledge, the same way he hung from the tree for some. Min has seen Mat grasping fireworks, and seeing men will die.</p><p>Mat is going to use the last Illuminator to get gunpowder, and make the most deadly weapon in WoTWorld ( excludeing the One/True Power. i personally share Mat's feeling about it and people who use it. Gives them an unfair advtantage ). Hes either going to give the gunpowder weapons to the Legion of the Dragon, making them even more affective, or to the Band of the Red Hand. Maybe both. The Seanchan might also get their hands on it, once they start to follow Mat as well as Tuan.</p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Can't Believe It</b>
body:
My theory actually got posted?! Woah! Besides, I'm glad some people seem to like it, and I know about the ravens and stuff with Mat, but someone before had already posted a ton of stuff on Mat, so I just left that to the basics. And I don't know too much on Norse Mythology, but I know a bit (I'm only 12-er, I mean 13, due to last Friday). So thanx peoples!  <img src="images/biggrin.gif" />


created: 2001-05-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Too many chefs</b>
body:
I think by now it's become clear that Jordan has used so many different mythologies for inspiration in this series that he can't follow the path of one without violating that of another. I recall a lot of similarities to Tolkien, Arthurian Legend, and even Christianity.<p>   As for what's gonna happen with a severed hand, I'm not sure it will be Rands. I have a feeling that it may belong to his half-brother or stepbrother. All that mins viewing of the hand showed was:</p><p>   (Elayne) a severed hand (not hers)." <br />The Great Hunt (362) </p><p>   This could be Rand or one of her brothers. My theory is that it will be Gawyn. Further:</p><p>   "Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be in the future." <br />The Shadow Rising (786-787)</p><p>   This corresponds to a dream that Egwene had about Gawyn going down two roads. One led to marriage, and one led to his death. If they get married the Egwene will bond him. If he's bonded that gives her a chance to use the bond to stop him from killing Rand (or even trying). If he decides to take Rand on he might end up dying. He could also lose a hand, that he may need in another fight down the road. This may inadvertently lead to his death. Also if you need more I give you this:</p><p>   "He (Gawyn) scowled, and for an instant his face was that bloody mask again. More: a sword floated above his head, and a banner waved behind it. The long hilted sword, like those most Warders used, has a heron engraved on its slightly curved blade, symbol of a blademaster, and Min could not say whether it belonged to Gawyn or threatened him. The banner bore Gawyn's sigil of the charging white boar, but on s field of green rather than the red of Andor." <br />The Shadow Rising (25)</p><p>   Who do we know that is a blade master (or has a heron marked blade at least) hmm.... High Lord Turak is dead. The Cairhienin Lord that was hanging out with Fain doggy dog has been out've the picture for quite some time. Tam's been kicking it in the two rivers last we saw of him. Lan wouldn't dare do something like that to Gawyn if Nynaeve told him not to (can you imagine her giving him consent to go after the boy?) so we can rule him out. So that doesn't seem to leave any options that I can see at all.....</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><br />........ OH WAIT! Silly me I forgot that Rand Al'Thor has a heron marked blade. So what in the light could cause them to find (Rand and Gawyn that is)? Well I suppose you could say that Gawyn might want to eliminate any old flames that his lady love has had (C'mon there's at least a chance that he might know that Egwene and Rand used to be somewhat of an item). </p><p>   Then again knowing that Rand has the hots for his sister, has started a school full of Male Channelers in her kingdom, tried to usurp the throne of Andor (at least in the eyes of the people) and set Elayne up as a puppet ruler subservient to him, and already has two other gals that he's been seen hooking up with might set him off as well. If he were to find out that Rand got his sister Pregnant and left her to go settle his won business that might piss him off I suppose. Add to this the fact that he thinks Rand killed Morgase and you might have some sort of motive emerging here.</p><p>   Then again I may have had too much oosquai and two rivers tabac to think straight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 11:15:57
subject: <b>Rand's Hand</b>
body:
That Rand will lose a hand ala Tyr is as yet uncertain, but not impossible. Tyr lose's his hand to the great wolf, Fenrir, as a form of retribution for having tricked the wolf to being tied up by a magical thread. The first reply to this post suggested that somehow Perrin does Fenrir's deed in the WoT by chopping off Rand's hand for some reason.<br /><br />Then on one side, the speculation is that Perrin and Rand aren't in good favor with each other right now. I disagree entirely. Perrin was sent to Ghealdan to bring Masema to see Rand, and also to contact Alliandre. Not tasks Rand would send Perrin on as a punishment, not a task he would send anyone on in whom he didn't have complete trust. So if Perrin and Rand aren't fueding, why would he want to take Rand's hand off?<br /><br />There is speculation that at some point Rand gets leashed via a'dam to a female channeler, which would torture and kill both. Who the female is is anybody's guess, it could be Egwene, Elayne, Elaida, Aviendha, Alanna, Cadsuane, or any female channeler. I can see Alviarin, with Mesaana's guidance, doing this to Rand easily.<br /><br />But if such a thing were to happen, and noone there, or who came in rescue, knew how to remove the a'dam from either party, it would be fastest to cut off Rand's hand. Perrin's axe could surely do the trick.<br /><br />I have no idea how many things would have to come together to set up this scenario, and I'm not presenting it as a theory. Rather, just suggesting how it might be both necessary and the best thing to do, if it were to come down to Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 01:26:24
subject: <b>As To Mat's Eye...</b>
body:
<br />I have an idea that it may not be a physical eye, but a symbolic one.  Remember in *The Shadow Rising* Mat was given his silver anti-magic ter'angreal by the fox-folk (which -finn are they?).  The silver foxhead is functional because of its eye (well, we don't know this, but we can assume it).  If Mat is along with Thom and maybe Olver to rescue Moiraine, he'd have to go back into fox-world.  And we can assume he's going to have his medallion with him.  If so, I can see the foxes taking the medallion back -- hence the loss of an &quot;eye&quot; -- from Mat as the price for Moiraine's return.<br /><br />--Mostly Harmless <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--Mostly Harmless <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 17:59:52
subject: <b>Severed hand?</b>
body:
Tyr lose his right hand -his swordhand- to Fenrir.<br />The right hand was his best weapon(together with a sword, ofcourse).<br />Rand&#180;s best best weapon is the ability to channel. <br />So, if Rand is going to lose any ``HAND&#180;&#180; it&#180;s probably his<br />link to Saidin, his most powerfull weapon(ofcourse will Nynaeve heal him later).<br />This lead me to think back to a celtic(?) myth I heard long ago: Some dude(he was actually a king) lose his hand in a great battle(Rand lose his ability to channel), but is able to reclaim his hand later on(Nyn heal Rand). In a second battle with those who cut his hand off, he is able to defeat them(Rand winning Tarmin Ga&#180;don) and also, his successor was a man named Lug(Logain?).<br /><br />PS: sorry about my crappy grammar.


created: 2001-09-28 23:52:35
subject: <b>Follow-up on Celtic...</b>
body:
<br />The king who lost a hand was Nuada, who in Roman times became Nodens.  A silver arm was fashioned for him by Diancecht, who in your analogy would be the Nynaeve character.  The guy who took over was Lugh, who seems more and more an analogy for Logain when you consider the aura Min sees around him constantly and compare that to the fact Lugh was strongly associated with the sun.  Lugh was also the hero/god who defeated the Fomorians (the supremely evil sea monsters) by killing their king, Balor, in single combat.  Which lends more credence to the idea that Logain will defeat the Dark One.  Also, I think Nuada was reinstalled as king, suggesting a &quot;reincarnation&quot; of Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--Mostly Harmless <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 22:32:23
subject: <b>over analyzzzing</b>
body:
The chora trees could be a sort of manifestation of Yggdrasil the great tree that was the world.<br />Rand is a little like Tyr because both of them will/have made a sacrefice. That is however where the resemblanse ends. It is more likely that it is Odin he is like since Odin was the keeper and inventor of the runic language and he knew all the spells. Or it could be Baldur because he was a sort of saviour.<br />Mat is like Odin in the ways that he also has a spear he's god with horses... and Odin has a eightlegged horse (sleipner an yes I know it is far fetched which is exactly my point) Odin has one eye and there are hints in the books that can lead you to believe that Mat will give up one of his eyes... (however if he does this I will stop reading on the spot) And then there is the crow thing. Odin had two crows Hugin and Munin who spyed for him... dosen't Mat have two crows on his spear? Althoug in the WoT world this would mean he had powers simmilar to the myrdraal... which i strongly doubt.<br />Then there's Perrin who supposedly is a Thor copy... is perrin the weathergod? no. Does Perrin have a magic hammer that comes back to his hand when he's thrown it a way? I don't think so. Does Perrin have a wagon drawn by two enchanted goats made by dwarfs? nooooo. Does Perrin have a power belt? no. Perrin does however have a sledge and presumably has the same build as Thor.<br /><br />There are ways in wich they are akin but they really are very small in numbers. I's all just overanalysing.


created: 2002-12-19 13:13:32
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
I think that WOT correlates more with Hindu concepts, not Norse mythology.  For instance, the Wheel of Time is a Hindu concept, and so is the Great Serpent.  Plus, Rand is the preserver, Lews Therin is the destroyer, and the unknown voice in his head is the creator.  These are the Hindu trinity, three gods in one making up Brahma.  I've noticed a lot of other similarities, but this is all I have time for right now.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agreement</b>
body:
I think that that is very likely, and that Demandred would not mind in the slightest having Rand dead as well...<p>And Jordan went to some pains to let us know that Slayer does not identify his victems before he kills them, and we've seen Demandred lurking about in Telaranrhiod before.</p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Good reason for Far Madding</b>
body:
While we know that the One Power is not usable without a well in Far Madding. However who knows whether that applies to the True Power. After all the use of the power being blocked requires two separate Ter'Angreal to work, one for Saidar and Saidin respectivley.<p>   So it would stand to reasone that a third Ter'Angreal would have been required for shutting off access to the True Power. Since Moridin (and apparently only him now) has access to the True Power he's at an advantage. If he were there looking for Rand (who did leave enough hints to be found by the psuedo-rouge Ashamon) then he has Power and Rand doesn't. </p><p>   What better place would there be to hide than one where no one is able to use the power, but you can use something else?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>That would be nice but...</b>
body:
While I really like the idea of Mordin getting his before the last battle I don't think that is going to happen.<p>I think that Rand will have to fight three individuals at the last battle.  First he will have to fight Shadar Haran.  (can you say REALLY intense sword fight)  Then I think Rand will have to fight the Dark One through Mordin (true power vs the one power).  Since both of these two like balefire that will be an interesting fight.  Then after Rand finishes there it will be time to pick up the acess key, link with several Aes Sedai and Ashaman and rebuild the Dark Ones prison.</p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>I totally forgot...</b>
body:
About Moridin and the TP.  D'oh, silly me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>My Own Thoughts</b>
body:
This is my idea.  I know some people still think good'ol Sammy is still around.  What if he's getting back into the action by hiring the ultimate assassin, Slayer, to take care of Rand.  Note how Slayer thinks to himself "not his nephew" after offing some unsuspecting sap in Far Madding.  Rand was in Far Madding, and just in case, some of you don't realize, Luc (one half of Slayer) is Rand's uncle.  We knew Sammael to dance to his own beat.  He gets off of a whole one book sabbatical and once again tries to kill that little farmboy and he'll have a good motive to go after crazy old Moridin too.  Gee, who was trying to help Rand toast Sammy in Shadar Logoth again?  Oh yeah, Moridin.  So, let's suppose no one but Slayer knows Sam is back and Sammy knows no one is expecting him back so he's free to kill Rand and Moridin and those other Forsaken will just be confused... one problem.  I think somehow, the DO would know if Sam is still alive.  Now I can't easily believe that the DO wouldn't warn Moridin.  Or maybe the DO will keep his mouth shut seeing if Sammy can overtake Moridin and become the new Nae'blis.  He always belivied in survival of the fittest.  Again, I see Moridin surviving till the very end, maybe Sam's plot will be foiled by Bela (or someone) But if anyone's secretly hired Slayer to kill Rand and Moridin I could only say it would be Sammael.  It would a sweet way for Sammael to get back into the story.  <br />Peace favor your sword...and peace out.


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Further thoughts</b>
body:
First off I think that among others Rand will have to deal with Fain at the last battle. Would it not be a great disappoinment to a lot of readers if RJ does Tarmon Gai'don without having everyone's favorite nut case?<p>   Now onto Slayer. Does Lord Luc even know if Rand is his nephew? If I'm not mistaken I think the relation would be on Tigraines side. If so then we have to remember that the fact that Tigraine became a Maiden of the Spear and birthed Rand on the Slopes of Dragon Mount during the Aiel War is a close guarded secret.</p><p>   By the way isn't Isam Lans uncle? IIRC Lan had and uncle or some other relative that went awol right before the fall of Malkier. Perrin and others that've seen him (Slayer) in T'A'R have mentally mentioned his resemblance to Lan. </p><p>   So it seem SLayer is Isam in the world of dreams, and Luc in the realm of waking. Both of them seem to carry eahc other's wounds from one realm to the other. Further more each one is related to one of our major heroes. Creepy stuff man.</p><p>   Haven't been this shocked since I learned that lesbianism is a hidden culture that's been hiding in the background for 7 books before coming to light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Isam connection</b>
body:
I was also under the impression that Isam was Lan's uncle, and that Slayer (Isam) killed the man and women in Far Madding because he thought they were Lan and Nynaeve.??????


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I like the point that it could have been Isam or Luc talking about either Lan/Nynaeve or Rand/Min...<p>Good point...</p><p>However, doesn't Verin also mention that there might be 3 Ter'angreal working in Far Madding?</p><p>Let me check</p><p>Slayer was talking as 'Luc' when he mentioned his nephew...  that would be Rand...<br />I believe...</p><p>Sorry, Sarene mentions 3 Ter'angreal...</p><p>Pg 461, Hardback WH, middle of second full paragraph</p><p>"The city possesses a ter'angreal.  Or perhaps it has three ter'angreal.  No one knows."</p><p>Interesting point, ne?</p><p>Wayeth<br />Gaidin to BobbiSedai</p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Thank you for the recap</b>
body:
IIRC There was the anti-saidin ter'angreal, the anti-saidar ter'angreal, and the tracker ter'angreal. THat third one if I'm not mistaken was the one that detected if Saidar or Saidin was being channeled and where. In fact I believe it was Sarene who commented on Far Madding being like two stedding that overlap as well.<p>   I believe that Slayer is Luc in the waking world, and Isam in the dreaming world, so that comment does seem to indicate Rand, but since he shares memories with Isam it could go either way.</p><p>   By the way am I the only one who's figured out that technically Slayer among others should be able to travel to other worlds with out benefit of portal stone?</p><p>   See T'A'R is linked to every mirror realm in existence. Like the Creator and the Dark One there is only one in all existence. So if Luc travels into T'A'R as Slayer he could theoretically pop out into say the world Rand and co. visit in TGH. Creepy stuff no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Correction...</b>
body:
Isam is Lan's cousin.  Read the chapter More Tales of the Wheel in tEotW.  It says that Lan's blood uncle, Lain, married a jealous, spiteful woman named Breyan who wanted her husband to be king.  So she sends him off to battle, where he dies.  She then blames the king for it, (Lan's dad).  Long story short, Breyan allows a darkfriend to bring Trollocs into Malkier.  Malkier is in Chaos, and Breyan flees with her son, Isam, into the safest place in the world, the Blight, and assumed to be captured by Trollocs.  For some reason, Isam was obviously spared.  Please, respond with where you can find the story of the Aes Sedai (name anyone?) that sent Luc into the Blight and Tigraine into the Waste.  That Aes Sedai somehow knew what would happen because of these actions.  Rand being born cause of what she told Tigraine is obviously important.  Does that mean the mysterious bonding of Isam to Luc to form Slayer will be just as important?  One last thing...For the longest time I thought Slayer was Luc only in the waking, and Isam only in T'A'R.  But in Winter's Heart, I believe it's Elayne and Egwene that spot a man that looked like an older version of Rand that was spying on them while in T'A'R.  By the way, I think Slayer is probably the killer of everyone's favorite pansy, Asmodean.  Probably killed Adeleas and Ispan too.  Someone else drugged them so they couldn't channel.  Slayer isn't Power-proof like a gholem.  Curse that Robert Jordan!  I don't know wether to become his devoted servant our beat him with one of his books.


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>Her name is Giatra</b>
body:
Giatra Morose IIRC. Or Gitara Morose. Either way her first name starts with a G.<p>   One of the wise ones (don't recall who though Amys perhaps) Told Rand that his mother was told my that Aes Sedai to cross the Dragonwall and join the Maidens of the Spears until they reached Tar Valon.</p><p>   Later on in Caemlyn Dyelin tells Rand that Tigraine (who she had already mentioned his resemblance to) had had an advisor named Giatra. Rand put two and two together and realized that his mother had been Tigraine (the wise one's had also mentioned that his mother had an unloved husband, and her only real regret was leaving her cherished son [Galad of course] behind and that also fits with Tigraine). He then asked later in a round about way what the blood relation between Morgase and Tigraine would count as if they were common folk to which Dyelin responded (after having to process a weird concept like equating commoners and nobility) that if they were simple common folk they would not even regard one another as kin. This set Rands mind at ease that should he form a relationship with Elaine he would not be committing incest.</p><p>   I believe this is also where Dyelin mentions Luc being sent away by Giatra. I'm not sure though I may be muddling things up. Luc's menitoning in their conversations may have been to show his part in things leading up to the succession after Tigraine dissappeared.</p><p>   By the way Giatra was also the Aes Sedai that had a power foretelling that killed her at the end of the aiel war. This was witnessed by the Amyrlin at the time, and two newly accepted name Moiraine Damodred and Siuan Sanche. Her final foretelling was that the Dragon had been at that moment reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, the shock of such a climactic event being foreseen (particuarly for an Aes Sedai) was enough to kill her. </p><p>   This event set Moirane and her present/former (the short story 'New Spring' never said when their love life came to an end, though I suspect it was upon raising to the shawl) lover Siuan on the path to trying to find the Dragon before the shadow could. That in turn lead to Moiraine finding Rand when she did and saving his life numerous times while training him as best she could.</p><p>   So inconclusion Giatra Morose would likely end up being the most influential Aes Sedai in history. She managed to set in motion the birth of Rand Al'Thor, and the succession of Morgase Trakand (thus setting Elaynes path in life) to the Throne of Andor in one fell swoop. This woman may have been responsible for the merging of Isam and Luc with light knows what (I'd have to re-read the series to be sure). Finally her last act of prediction ended up saving the very life that she had taken part in creating.</p><p>   Hows that for one hell of an Aes Sedai with monumental Foretelling abilities? Elaida do Avrihny a Roihan eat your heart out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>Gratitude</b>
body:
Thanks, Savaunt.  I really didn't want to have to look for that part of the story.  Oh yeah, gotta correct myself before anyone else does.  I said earlier that Slayer would probably be the only one to know Sammael is still alive, if, in fact, Sammael did hire Slayer. (If he's even alive...) But, duh, Slayer only knows that it's a male channeler that's hired him.  Which again, gives me more of a feeling it's gonna be Sammael behind the plot.  He really wants to be Nae'blis, and I'm sure he doesn't like this little upstart, Moridin, trying to kill him while he climbs to the rank of Nae'blis himself.  I imagine Slayer would spill his guts under the correct influence. So Sammael won't let anyone know he's still around..


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>On Slayer and Forsaken</b>
body:
Well Slayer being hired by Samm E.L. does seem to make sense. He was the one IIRC that hired out the Gholam, so it fits that he'd be hiring other unusual and unexpected allies to sucker punch, sideswipe, and babmboozle his foes.<p>   I one of them folk that's stillout on the is Sammael alive issue. It seems plausible either way. RJ may have wnated to show that not all major have to die in spectacular ways that leave no doubt. He could have wanted to take Sammael out've the picture and use him as a surprise later on. Then again he may just like mucking around with our heads.</p><p>   I will not however buy the idea that Slayer whacked Asmo. It has been stated numerous times that RJ has said all we need to know about the who done Killed Rands learnin guy thang was present by the end of Book 5. It's not til Book 9 that we learn that Slayer has met any of the Forsaken, much less that he creeps them out.</p><p>   Further I recall that before Lanfear sniped him so harshly Asmodean was mostly hiding out waiting for some of the smoke to clear before even getting around to making a move. Now the reason we only just learned that Slayer knows the Forsaken may be he's only recently met them. He may have been taking hits while acting through intermediaries until his reputation among the dark got so impressive that some of the Forsaken decided to meet him themselves.</p><p>   So with Asmodean wandering around just trying to stay out of trouble the chances of him meeting Slayer are kinda vauge. So he'd have to reason to freak at the sight of him. Well if he way a non-channeling man pop out of T'A'R he might wig, but saying 'YOU' indicates that he definitely knew that person. That leaves other Forsaken or the Dark One. I give the dark one very low odds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sammael is dead and will not return</b>
body:
I read an interview with RJ online where he states that Sammael was balefired and will not return. I must give credit to Nevman for drawing my attention to this site.<p>http://ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=98327<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Slayer mentioned in THG</b>
body:
I just want to remind you that Slayer is mentioned already in TGH in the prophesis written in the dungeon of that <br />Borderland town, but we don't know his abilities then.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Alcair ashan</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>Lurker extraordinary</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 20:16:37
subject: <b>I hope not!</b>
body:
No way, man! You can't do him like that, man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. I, for one, like Moridin. He may by  <br />a threat to Rand and the gang (if they get in the way of his plans), but he is the embodiment<br />of good within evil. Also, he is my favorite character in the Dark One's posse (second<br />being Shaidar Haran). His death is almost guaranteed, but I hope he has the chance to <br />ruin a few plots beforehand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />                   The ever good but oh-so-bad,<br />                      Cavrin, Nae'blis in training <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am a worker&quot; <br />-The Prophet Muhammad<br /><br />&quot;A lot of people think right-wingers aren't capable of being amusing at all. Not true. Mussolini looked hilarious swinging from that lamppost.&quot;<br />-Charlie Brooker</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-25 13:10:37
subject: <b>Far Madding would be perfect</b>
body:
In the previous post someone pointed out that Far Madding would not be logical place for Moridin to be, but we have no reason to suspect the True Power doesn't work there. Especially since it is an artifact (if memory serves) that prevents channeling there, and probably wasn't designed to stop the true power, and since Moridin seems to use it exclusively now, it would certainly be where I'd go in his shoes. It would certainly keep other forsaken from backstabbing him, since they use the True power with about as much enthusiasm as gargling with acid.


created: 2001-12-19 12:34:30
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Good idea but I think Moridin is (far) too important a character to be assassinated by a character like slayer (or any char.)  His job is to be killed by Rand at the last battle.  <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> My minions


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>You got it backwords</b>
body:
If the dark one escapes in one world he escapes in all of them.  Once world stopping him from escaping does not save all of the worlds.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Verin's paradox</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, Verin was trying to explain the weird paradox of the Portal Stones to Rand in TGH.  She said that if the Dark One escaped in one world he escaped in all of them, but also as long as he was imprisoned in one world he was imprisoned in all of them.  Even Verin said it was a hard concept to get...and she is the smartest woman in the world.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well to reconsider</b>
body:
First off Verin aint the smartest gal in the world. Maybe the smartest of her age, but with the other Female Forsaken around her knowledge is somewhat diminished.<p>   Secondly the concept of the dark one getting free isn't that hard to grasp really. It's been stated that there is only one Dark One no matter how many mirror realms may exist.</p><p>   So if the Dark One is freed from his prison then he is free to touch all worlds. So long as any world is not beset by a freed Shai'tan then we can extrapolate that he hasn't broken out of his prison yet.</p><p>   Therefore when Meirin/Lanfear and that other dude bored into his cell back in the AoL that cause him to be partially freed and able to touch all worlds. When Lews Therin Tela'thon re-sealed the Bore that ended his near freedom on any and all worlds.</p><p>   See it's basically an all or nothing type of thing. The interesting question to wonder is if Shayol Ghul is the closest part of the world to his cell in each realm. Could some world have say Adriohl or Dragonmount as the part touched by Ol'Nasty?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nope...</b>
body:
The wouldn't be possible because the opposite would happen also.  The worlds that the dark one has taken over already would already be changed by the dark one.  Somehow there is a barrier between the worlds.  I don't know how this could be considering as the dark one exists outside the wheel.  If he takes over the wheel in one world, he should have it in all of them but obviously that hasn't happened.  That would be an interesting question to ask the Jordan guy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>Correct kind of</b>
body:
Yes the worlds that he touches would be changed, and remain so. For example WoT Prime world (the place we always see book in book out) has been touched by the dark one. There's the Blight, and Shayol Ghul are prime examples. Then there's the numerous shaodw spawn that were created in the war of the power. <p>   After Shaitans prison was patched up his influence largely came to an end. I don't think that new shadow spawns could have been created after the Bore was sealed. That might be possible now since the seals are breaking though.</p><p>   Then look at the world where Hawkiwing lost the war. A gigantic monument was erected to the trollocs, and no indiginous humans could be found. The presence of Grolm implies that maybe the Trollocs brought those over from Sean Chan. Hawkwings armies may not have had time to tame them for se travel, but the Trollocs becoming the domiant force on earth might have done it. So in this world it seems that Trollocs are in charge, which would probably mean that that world is preparing for the coming of the dark one.</p><p>   Wouldn't it be a bit irrritating to realize that all your efforts to hold him from one world can go to hell all because of another world that you can't even reach?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 16:27:24
subject: <b>flawfull mirror worlds</b>
body:
the idea of these mirror world is full of flaws. if there is made a new world for every action taken, and there are parallel world for if the sction was not taken or an other action was,etc,etc. Atleast there is made a new world for every mayor fork in time. like the trolloc/hawkwing battle.<br />but some of the biggest events in randlands history would require the dark one to be wither free or completely sealed.<br />for example: the hundrer companions could have lost the battle of Shayol Ghul, the Dark One would be free.<br />the womean could've participated in the sealing and then they might have gone mad too, or Darkie could be dead or completely sealed.<br />in some worlds Rand is already dead and the seals should be broken, and Darkie would be free.<br />many more examples in the same category. <br />While we are onto this subject, why did the coloured steps  surounding the Gate Stone seem in much better condition in the mirror world were the trollocs won, then in the real world??? wouldn't the opposite be more likely?<br />Also, si that the Darke One's plan? letting the world rotten and the trollocs roam around without asy humans in sight?? what can he possibly get out of that???<br />I could probably write a lot more bollock, but u're saved from that. food!!<br /><br />


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>As I recall</b>
body:
Min was thinking of Moiraine at the time. That is to say the she had mentally mentioned the womans name. Besides I'm not sure if Min knew who Lanfear was. Did Egwene even know? <p>   While I can see Cyndane trying to botch Moridins schemes (if only to get that mindtrap out of his grasp) and that resulting in helping Rands cause, I can't see her conscioulsy helpin him again. Recall that in WH when she felt the tremendous flow of power that Nynaeve was using with the Choedam Kal she decided that for spurning her yet again he would die.</p><p>   The idea of Lanfear seriously going back to the light rather than just siding with the side that can save her sorry ass is kinda hard to swallow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>The list in Rand's head</b>
body:
I think that Min's viewing was refering to the list of dead women that Rand has burned into his soul.  Every time Rand goes over the names on the list he becomes a little bit stronger and harder.  Without that strength he would have no chance of winning.<br />


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>Rand's Lady</b>
body:
A while ago I submitted a theory about the same thing, but it was never posted. I would also agree that the woman is not Moiraine, but I don't believe that it is Lanfear either. My idea is that Rand needs Lews Therin to help him in the last battle. To help him, Lews needs to be in a slightly more stable state. Could it be possible that someone in Rand's life, perhaps a female channeler even, could be Ilyena reborn? It seems that she is the only one who could straighten up Lews Therein enough to have him be any help at all in Tarmon Gaidon. Perhaps she was important enough to be reborn--we really don't know much about her anyway. <img src="images/blush.gif" />


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>Possibly Both?</b>
body:
Isn't it possible to have Cyndane be a mixture of Lanfear and Moraine.  When they both went through the ter'angreal then that could have melded them into one person or Cyndane.  It mixed their strengths so she is not as strong as Lanfear, but not as weak as Moraine.  Just a thought.


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>Keeping all These Dead Women Straight</b>
body:
I think it could definitely be Lanfear.  After all, it doesn't' say that she is going to help the cause of the Light, just Rand in particular.  We all know she's been playing the game from both angles because she just can't get Lews Therin out of her head.  She has delusions about her ruling the world with him and the power she would have.  It's entirely possible it's Lanfear - and yes, Min would know Lanfear's name.  Everyone knows the name of the Chosen; their names are used to frighten children.<p>Someone posted a response that it could be Ilyena reborn as a female channeler.  Why didn't you just connect the dots and rearrange the letters?  Ilyena = Elyane if you let an I become an E.  She even is described the same way.  She's got bright golden hair, just like...oh, could it be?...Ilyena SUNHAIR.  It's one of those things that's so obvious Jordan doesn't need to elaborate on it.  Of course, like everyone in WoT other than Mat and, at times, Rand, Elayne doesn't have the memory of her past lives to help her.</p><p>There is a good case for the LTT/Ilyena thing, however.  After all, just because Rand cleansed saidin doesn't mean that LTT will go away.  And if LTT is still crazy (he's already gone insane, as opposed to the living channelers, who are still in the process of "losing it" at the time of the cleansing) maybe only Elayne with her memory back can bring him around.  After all, he keeps crying about Ilyena.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font></p><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>On Ilyena Reborn</b>
body:
A few things to say. <p>1) Isn't Elayne's hair red? When Rand first met some Aiel I thought one of them had "hair as red as Elayne's". And unless I'm really drunk, Gawyn had hair "as red as his sister's". </p><p>2) Red or Blonde, I have another candidate for Ilyena reborn: Min. We've heard of Min's calming effect on Rand (Elayne repeatedly mentioned that after Rand's departure). Rand's insanity is mainly the doing of LTT, correct? Well, then Min calms him down. I don't know of any raging torrent of anger or fear from LTT when she's around, but I don't know of any evidence of her being Ilyena, either. The only case of LTT noticing Min I know of is when LTT (and Rand) starting humming while ogling Min. </p><p>But certainly there's more to Ilyena than blonde hair, no? Was/is Rand anything like the Dragon in terms of personality?</p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>More thoughts on this</b>
body:
Actually from what I've read Elayne is describes as having reddish gold curls. Not blonde or red headed, but still close enough to Ilyena.<p>   However again I also recall Min to have been thinking of Moiraine at the time. I think her thoughts went along the lines that this woman had died in Cairhienin. This certainly points to Moiraine, and Lanfear as well. But, again we have no evidence that Min, or even Egwene knew that the woman was Lanfear. The most anyone might've known afterwards was that Moiraine had apparently died fighting a female Forsaken.</p><p>   Now as to Lanfear another mark against her is the point that as Cyndane she flipped out after she realized that Rand had A) Bedded another woman, and B) was letting a woman use the Choedam Kal. After this she decided that Rand was gonna die for spurning her love. So while she might do something to inadvertently help Rand if she screws over another Forsaken she will most likely not be helping Rand in any direct ways.</p><p>   The list of females that have died as a result of Rands fight would make sense except that Mins veiwing seemed to imply a singular woman. If it was Ilyena reborn that could indeed be Aviendha, Min, or Elayne. Of course it may end out that none of them are a reborn Ilyena. Lews Therin had a genuine love for Miernin before things soured so Ilyena is clearly not an eternal love like Gaidal Cain and Birgitte are. Besides if my memory is right that comment about this woman having died in Caemlyn would rule out Ilyena unless she had been reborn as Moiraine (which I'd place at highly unlikely to rather silly odds).</p><p>   For my money I'll go on record as saying that Min was thinking of Moiraine, with Lanfear running a distan second and all others coming in farther behind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>It's Moiraine, people</b>
body:
It's Moiraine...<p>It may not even be a specific viewing...</p><p>Remember, all the way back to EotW, that Min always sees the firefly vision when she sees Rand...</p><p>And, IIRC, not only Mat and Perrin contribute to those fireflies, but everyone present at the time...</p><p>That would be:</p><p>Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, Mat, Perrin, and Loial, I believe</p><p>She might be noticing that without Moiraine's presence, the fireflies are missing something they need...</p><p>Also, I believe Elayne is Ilyena reborn...<br />About the hair color, remember when Lanfear made some mention of, "You were mine, long before you ever met that flaxen-haired milksop" or somesuch?</p><p>Rand's next thought is, roughly, "How does she know about Elayne?!"</p><p>Also, and any Eastern Europeans are free to confirm or deny, but I believe Ilyena is simply the Slavic version of Elayne, like John and Jean...</p><p>It is possible, though, that Ilyena was separated into three, being Min, Aviendha, and Elayne...</p><p>Also, I don't think we've ever seen Lews Therin's reaction to Elayne...</p><p>In the Stone, LTT was not too active, and Rand just got to see Elayne again in WH.  And the part in WH is from Elayne's POV, not Rand's.</p><p>It would be interesting to see what LTT's reaction to Elayne _would_ be...  =)</p><p>Wayeth<br />Gaidin to BobbiSedai</p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agree with most of what you said....</b>
body:
However I don't buy the idea that Ilyena could be split into 3 people. So far Jordan has shown that people are reborn as a single person in a cronological order (i.e. no one bein born as two individuals in the same era and period of time).<p>   I don't even know if we can say that Ilyena has been reborn or needs to. See Lews loved Meirnin/Lanfear before he met Ilyena. If Ilyena was one of Rands gals how would Lews react to Rand essentially cheating on her, or using her as one in a stable of women? How would a rebonr Ilyena that partially regocnizes her lost love react to having to share him with two others?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>It's Moiraine.</b>
body:
This "woman who was dead and gone" comment matches perfectly with her other thought that "Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed," found two pages later in the same chapter.  For those of you who can't remember, it was in ACOS chapter 35.<br />  And we all know who's gonna save her, right?  (Egwene's vision..., TFoH chapter 15..., remember?)<br />Case closed.  <img src="images/wink.gif" />


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>That'd be....</b>
body:
Thom right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 15:21:29
subject: <b>Ilyena being reborn</b>
body:
If Ilyena were reborn i dont think that she would be able to channel. nowhere in the BWB or the series does it say that she was Aes Sedai. And it seems that the ability to channel is related to the soul so. . . . if Ilyena was reborn as one of Rand's girls it would probably be Min.


created: 2001-10-09 14:53:39
subject: <b>Random</b>
body:
Min did say that Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that has failed. However, I don't believe Moiraine is any more dead than any of the other main characters. I believe Thom will save her as someone mentioned before.<br /><br />As for Ilyena, I doubt she's been reborn. Lanfear's comment about a flaxen haired milksop (or whatever she said) was about the original Ilyena. She was under the impression that Rand was still Lews Therin, rather than Lews Therin just being a voice in Rand's head.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-05 18:41:32
subject: <b>Not Moiraine</b>
body:
There's not a chance its Moiraine, Moiraine is eaither trapped or dead.  If she died the dark one wouldn't bring her back to life, not someone who has helped his enamey and killed two of the forsaken.  And Lanfear would never turn to the light, If she turned to the light (witch she won't) she would want Rand, but Rand alredy has enough girl friends so she would probely try to kill them.  Therefor not really turning to the light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 08:37:19
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
Moiraine will return becouse she is supposed to marry Thom, and becouse it is only fair that if Lanfear can return from Finnland, Moiraine can too.<br /><br />Lanfear will not return to the light becouse she is too powerhungry, so that leaves moiraine to be the dead person to return<br />Mzzl,<br /><br />Thomas


created: 2001-11-20 15:19:07
subject: <b>I agree with one of the above posts</b>
body:
Its Moraine, Min says that Moraines viewing was the only one to fail.  Since Min can't be wrong, Moraine would have to come back to complete the viewing.


created: 2001-12-31 11:36:45
subject: <b>Why it has to be Moiraine</b>
body:
First of all, it definitely can't be Lanfear, because Min doesn't even know that Lanfear is dead. Whether or not she recognized Lanfear is beside the point; she _wasn't there_ at the docks where Lanfear died/fell through the doorway ter'angreal. At the time, she was still in Salidar doing Gareth Bryne's laundry. She knows Moiraine was dead because someone told her, but would they have told her about one of the Forsaken being dead? Not as likely. And aside from all that, the chances of Lanfear coming to the Light are roughly equivalent to the chances of Nynaeve cutting off her braid, Mat giving up drinking, and all the wotmania message-boarders forswearing SPAM.... in other words, not bloody likely.<br />Second, it can't be the list of dead women because the exact quote is &quot;he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone&quot;. That means a specific woman, not multiple woman. And, IMHO, the list of dead women is actually hurting Rand more than it's helping, because it's making him become too stony (the problem Sorilea and Cadsuane noticed).<br />Third, if it was Ilyena, how would Min even know who Ilyena was? If Min had a viewing of Ilyena, she wouldn't be able to recognize her, let alone know that she was dead.<br />Now, about Moiraine, a few pages after Min thinks of Rand needing a &quot;woman dead and gone&quot; to succeed, Min runs into Lady Caraline Damodred, and thinks for a minute that she is Moiraine, then is disappointed when she isn't, and thinks &quot;Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.&quot; Now, knowing Jordan's attention to detail, he probably put this encounter right next to Min's other viewing for a reason.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-16 19:31:01
subject: <b>Comment</b>
body:
Ok someone said somewhere &quot;the likelihood of leanfear turning to the light is the same as rand turning to the dark one&quot; It was said somewhere in this series of posts or under the theory or somthing *l* But yeah my point is... Why CANT rand turn to the dark one? Rand has to die at the last battle true, and rand has to fight at the last battle, does it ever say witch side he is on though in the prophecy? Not taht i can recall, and hey even if it says he does fight the dark one, Padan Fain, a darkfriend right? But doesnt he go around killing the dark one's guys now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-19 15:06:53
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
I'd LIKE to think Lanfear would come back to the light...but I don't think it's very likely. Remember at the end of Winter's Heart, Cyndane/Lanfear wanted to see Rand dead more than anything? She obviously blames Rand for her time with the Finns. Don't reckon she'd be jumping up and down to help him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Master of the Revels</i><br /><br /><b>If I can't dance, then I don't want any part of your revolution</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nope it's gonna be Galad</b>
body:
Galad wears white. Galad is about to meet up with Talavor (sp?) who he knows from growing up in the palace in Andor. They will then team up with Perrin and his whole crazy group that he has with him to save Faile, Morgase, that other queen (can't remember that annoying womans name) and wipe out the rest of Sevana's Aiel. <br />Anyway Galad is the man in white that Berlain will fall for. He is a WhiteCloak! Galad always does what he sees as right. He won't see it as right for him to be interested in a woman while Morgase is a captive of the Aiel. So Berlain will stop annoying Perrin and move her sites to Galad.<br />Oh, and I doubt that Faile will be gotten rid of.<br />~Ashamore


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Galad & Berelain</b>
body:
I agree with the statement that a Paendrag would be more "useful" than a Bashere, but I guess it makes sense that the two most attractive characters in the series would end up together.<br />That's just life. . . <br />


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Go MattTaz!!!</b>
body:
Congrats MattTaz!!  Great theory!  I've been lookin at this theory post for a long time, and I think that this theory is great...a pleasant change from a lot of the others who claim to have read the books....keep readin and posting theories!!  <img src="images/read.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Galahadred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>amen!</b>
body:
We can but hope that the series' most hated character will be bumped off sooner rather than later. I like Perrin a lot, and hope that he can realise just how annoying Faile is, and just move on soon. In any case we're bound to see some pretty wicked scenes in the mean time when he finds out his (annoying) wife has died...<p>I don't want Berelain to end up with him either, she's only just behind Faile in the annoying stakes.</p><p>Maybe RJ could arrange a double death?</p><p>Maybe that's too much to hope for...<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>As one who does not hate Faile...</b>
body:
Okay, so would you rather have Mayene on your side or Saldea, including Davram Bashere for a father in law. <p>Me, I'll take the gaurdian of the blight border.</p><p>Faile may be killed off, could be that Hawkwing thing, but I'm not looking forward to it.</p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>I dont' see her as dying...</b>
body:
It wouldn't be fair to Perrin. He likes her.   I just don't see Jordan killing over a major "good" character.  He hasn't done it yet, why start now? <p>I was impressed when Moirraine was "killed" off, but most people expect her to come back so it's not really being offed, is it?</p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Jordans Complex</b>
body:
Even though it seems reasonable I don´t think Faile will bite the dust. Robert Jordan is simply not capable of killing a "good" character that has been in the book for more than five pages.<p>Personally I can´t see why everybody hates Faile... I don´t see her as That annoying,I actually like her (please don´t flog me and hang me by my ankles in the top mast) I really don´t like Berelaine though but she is (sadly) important for the plotline...</p><p>BTW Moiraine is not dead... she will be back! <img src="images/moiraine.gif" /> <br /></p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>I'll give my opinion...</b>
body:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The masterful RJ needs to start killing off main good characters.  And I think some should die, I really don't find any particular characters annoying at all.  I think it would be more dramatic the more I liked a character.  Moiraine will come back but I want some real tragidies in the series.  I hope, at least, Rand dies for good at the end.  Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but Rand somehow squirming through any of those "blood on rocks" prophesy loopholes would be the ONLY reason I could be slightly disappointed in the ending.


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>BA--WHA?</b>
body:
Okay, I saw absolutly no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Fiale would die. Just some evidence that Berelain will fall in love with someone. And I don't count "not enough dead good guys" as evidence. You might as well say that EVERYONE will die because the body count isn't high enough.<p>And Who cares if Berelain really does have feelings for Perrin? He doesn't return those feelings, and if Fiale dies, he might as well just blame her for it. Besides, If the "man in White" was Perrin, Min would have seen that, she's pretty good at these sorts of things you know.</p><p>If you want to convince me that Fiale will die, show me some evidnce, not some fallicious wishfull thinkings.</p>


created: 2001-04-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Possible (in some respects) but I'd hate it...</b>
body:
Well I can see that there has been some building up to do a death scene on Faile. I would seriously hate it though.<p>   Yes I am one of those guys that digs Faile. If however she dies, that would be interesting because she'd be a character that many would mourn. Yeah yeah, I know a lot of you would be all ecstatic and what not but I wouldn't be in a small crowd either.</p><p>   If this does come to pass, the idea that Berlaine and Perrin would end up together is ludicrious. Sure Faile would want him to be happy and move on, but with any other woman. Perrin has an active dislike for Berlain, and would not even think of dishonoring her memory by going with a woman that she hated so much.</p><p>   BTW when was Mins vision? had she met Galad by then (I think so)? If she had then unless the vision was intended to be vauge (i.e. She aint supposed to know it's him), Berlain has yet to meet her man in white.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Like hell she will</b>
body:
Faile is a really cool character. So she is a bit stroppy. So are half the women. As a rather stroppy female myself, I must say it is much more fun that way. Being meek and docile is utterly boring. <img src="images/wink.gif" /><br />It makes a lot more sense if Galad is Berelain's "man in white". He is just the type to run screaming or utterly ignore her, unlike most men, which makes it all the more likely she will chase him, seeing him, like Perrin, as a challenge. Personally I find Berelain much more irritating than Faile. When Perrin and Faile came to Cairhien, and were in a position to meet Berelain again, I was all ready for her to get her comeuppance. Instead, she keeps after him! I'm about ready to strangle her.... <br />Anyway, to sum up, Faile will live, Berelain will marry Galad and everyone will live happily ever after for five minutes until someone comes along and pitches them into the middle of a crisis again. Thank-you all for listenening to me rant and rave. I promise, I won't do it again soon.... <img src="images/tongue.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>what a very bad theory</b>
body:
WELL NOW  for a start no one said that Perrin was like Halkwing apart from a few sad people on this site and I think it would be better to have a Saldean of royal blood as a wife than a ruler of tiny Mayene even if shes of hawkwings line + the man in white will be Galad I think thats obvious to everone , I have yet to read another theory i disagree more with ( apart from Taim/Demandred )<br />Faile will not die , we still have to find out about the broken crown!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Perrin and the wolf Dream</b>
body:
Ok there is one thing that you missed in tSR perrin when perrin frist gets to the Two Rivers he goes in to the wolf <br />dream and talks to hopper and at the end the last thing hopper tells perrin " may you know good hunting, Young Bull,<br />AND SHE WILL GIVE YOU MANY CUBS" now the only person that was whit hopper at that time was Faile.... so I don't see how Faile can Die. <img src="images/read.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*bows* By your leave, mother, I will stand, the watch is not done.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>No way Faile dies</b>
body:
There is no way that Faile dies - as pointed out, we haven't found out about the broken crown and she will provide Perrin with a healthy litter.<p>I can't really see why people complain about Faile, when people like Elayne and the ultimate pain Nynaeve are far more frustrating!  I actually think Faile is one of the better characters in the series! </p><p>Galad will end up Berelain (ideal couple, the perfect looking woman with the perfect looking man), but I wouldn't be surprised if Berelain still tried to "play" on Perrin's feelings afterwards, just to try and piss off Faile.  Of the main characters that are likely to die Rand would have to be top of the list (in the last book).  I can also see Lan dying heroically too, but that's another discussion altogether!</p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>She WONT die (ahem, 'scuse me)</b>
body:
Do you mean, that only because some of the Forsaken has bitten the grass, that means an equal amount of "goodies" must die? <br />In the end, they have to kill all Forsaken, Fain and some other DF, just to show they're serious, so if killing darkfriends means losses of good guy, I'd say most of the characters would be dead by the end.<br />If Jordan had the intention to slay the major part of the good persongallery, he would have started by now (if we forget Moirane, who I still dont believe is quite dead)<p>I think that's pretty it. Now I will stop harassing you with my lousy english.</p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
See, I believe that the man in white is Galad (whitecloak) I think Berelain will fall in love with him....would be a good thing too, since Gawain is gonna be with Egwene, not Galad...<br />let me now what u think about it


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Um, I Doubt This</b>
body:
Let me Enumerate These: <p>The two pieces of evidence for Faile dying are as follows: </p><p>A) A lot of us don't like her <br />B) She's told Perrin he should move on if she dies. <br />C) Hopper once wished for him to "Know many she's". </p><p>A is wholly lacking in substance, and C is simply an indication that Hopper is a wolf. They're not big on marriage. </p><p>B is the only one that bars further investigation. While it could indicate that Faile will die eventually, I think it's more indictative of Faile being a tough chick. "Hey, if I die, I die," she said, "go on and find another girlfriend." That seems to fit well with a girl who's learning how act more Aiel, lead a group of woman and grew up in the Borderlands.  </p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Faile isn't going to die</b>
body:
Perrin would go absoulutly nuts if Faile dies.  He is already way to obsessed about her.  Berelain will probally get it in the end.


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>HAHA!</b>
body:
i personally am conflicted about this theory, and found that upon careful deliberation...my head hurts.  But regardless of my own failings in scalpal health, i am still going to selfishly use this space to place a theory of mine which you might see elsewhere due to the fact that I am posting one in each category.  I do this not to annoy, but merely because my theories, regardless of the variatins on their quality, never seem to get posted.<p>[ahem]...I was in the middle of my fourth reading of WoT, when suddenly something stood out like a flat chested girl on baywatch.  It is to my understanding that the one power is the force that turns the wheel of time and drives the universe.  So based on this, wouldn't it seem to be true that during an age where the power was not used( i rad abount one somewhere) the next age would never come?  If so, what would happen.  Who knows, maybe at the end of that age people would discover use of the power and become the first channelers in that turning of the wheel.  Please get back to me with your opinions. <br />                                       sincerely,<br />                                    the viking warrior<img src="images/viking.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Metalica-man and his theory</b>
body:
I believe that your theory relies on the assumption that by channellers using the one power the wheel is driven, or, restating this in another way, if people don't channel the wheel does not turn. The way that I understood this concept is as follows: the source is the power that drives the wheel and also channellers have a way to tap into this 'source' and use the one power for their own purposes. The wheel itself does not require channelling to turn. <p>Imagine the source to be the battery that provides energy for the wheel to turn and channellers simply have the ability to tap into this battery to provide energy for them to channel.</p><p>P.S. I empathize with your frustration about your theories that are not posted. I also feel disappointed when I take time and effort to research, write, and submit theories<br />and then never hear anything about them again, especially with some of the crap that does get posted. Perhaps it would be benificial to us that take time to submit theories to know some criteria or receive some constructive feedback concerning our creations.</p>


created: 2001-05-17 18:15:13
subject: <b>Probably Not</b>
body:
The problem with this theory, is that Berelain has already fallen head over heels.  And, if we all agree that her feelings for Perrin are sincere, then she's been feeling like this for awhile.  Also, Perrin is just now making progress with her and finding ways to deal with her temper.  Faile is becoming a better character and a more important one.  She even has a plot of her own.  I don't think that RJ would rise her up like this, make the reader's actually like her, then kill her off.  And despite Berelain's feelings for Perrin, he returns none for her.  He is so madly in love with Faile, that if she died, he might just follow her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Go for it, just remember, though, that she's been with me. So that would be like going from prime rib to....weird brother of prime rib.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I&#8217;m afraid I just blue myself.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 09:53:05
subject: <b>Return to first principles.</b>
body:
One of the overriding characteristics of couples that I see in the entire series is that main characters end up coupled with whoever is most unlike them, or unlike who they would have ever expected to end up with.<br /><br />Perrin would never have dreamed himself with a wife who needs to be smacked down in order to respect him, since his nature is so gentle and careful. <br /><br />Mat prefers women a bit older, with a healthy amount of flesh, ideally one who giggles and bats her eyelashes, and absolutely NOT of nobility. So of course he gets an empress' daughter, short and slim, and used to people falling on the floor in her presence.<br /><br />Lets turn to Berelain. Here's a woman who NEEDS attention, expects men to lose their wits over her figure and how she presents it, and makes a game of chasing someone who doesn't immediately start drooling in her presence. Remember, she even tried that with Rand once, but got the daylights scared out of her. Now, who would be the perfect man for her? Why, Galad, of course, even if it weren't obvious from Min's viewing. Galad always does what's right, no matter what. And with the Whitecloak philosophy he has taken up, making personal choices based on pleasure aren't his way. Berelain's assets won't impress him as she'd like, she'd never get him wrapped around her finger just by wiggling and jiggling. In fact, it is very likely that Berelain would be the one gog-eyed and drooling over Galad.<br /><br />It just makes sense.<br /><br />I for one wouldn't like to see Faile die. She's completely loyal to Perrin, even if she isn't completely obedient. She's fearless and shrewd. Faile isn't annoying at all, in my thinking. It's a Saldaean thing, you wouldn't understand...<br /><br />The heroes in a fantasy story aren't supposed to die. Why go to the trouble of building them up over a long period just to waste them? That said, if RJ is going to off any major good guy, it would likely be Lan. But since he claims to most closely identify himself with Lan, don't count on it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-10 19:48:07
subject: <b>Minor correction</b>
body:
Actually, in tSR, Hopper tells Perrin &quot;...and may you know shes to give to you many cubs&quot;  It's not prophetic at all, just an honest desire for Perrin to get laid a few times.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-17 02:15:11
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
Thank you, Lanfear828, for that remarkable piece of insight.<br />By the way, I would be seriously dissapointed if Faile dies, and just might start chasing RJ with a basket of figs and a cage of mice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />(seriously!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 02:44:50
subject: <b>I don't want it, but it will happen</b>
body:
I think that Faile will get killed. It shall be during a battle that Perrin doesn't want her in. Any of them.<br /><br />She shall get gutted &amp; Perrin shall absolutely let go &amp; beat the overwhelming odds that are against him &amp; the rest of his army.<br />Perrin shall berate Faile's psudo-Aiel for not being there &amp; they shall do something to reclaim honor at Perrin's behest. More than likely an embarrasing &amp; funny scene to us, in memory of Faile.<br /><br />Berlain shall not fall for Galad (although he is one of the few good guys not to have a girl yet) she shall fall for one of the Shaido that are captured when Perrin saves Faile etc. This gaishain shall more than likely be one of the brotherless.<br />Their marriage shall ensure Mayne's life by putting Aiel into the country &amp; so Tear is unable to overtake it.<br /><br />That is my dollar and eighteen cents.<br /><br /><br /><br />Greyslayer<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of Aquatic Mammals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-23 19:54:12
subject: <b>title?</b>
body:
i agree that faile will die, the first time i read i didn't like her, or most of the females for that, but now i like her, she isn't near as annoying as elayne and nyneave, and she makes perrin(my favorite character, tied with mat) much more interesting. Anyway, i do belive a few good guys will die, all good stories need a little trajedy, otherwise it wouldn't be as real, feeling sorry at the loss of a character is important to a story, sorrow is just as powerful as awe or joy, and as far as rj building up characters, she hasn't been built up that much, perrin is built up more by her, but she is not important to the story, and not the target of a dream or vision... those are the characters that will die, ones that do not need to accomplish something in order for the story to progress, not only that, but failes death would increase progress if it links her to a dream or vision not yet happened to perrin, and though i like her she seems to be slowing perrins character down, his chasing her keeps him from helping to bring about tarmon gaidin, which to me will only happen if all three ta' veren are pulling at the pattern together<br /><br /><br />imho<br />


created: 2001-07-26 00:01:09
subject: <b>to all of you out there...</b>
body:
First;  Faile will NOT die!  Not gonna happen.  I want to know what all those Cairhien idiots are doing, and only Faile know.  She said that they would never be loyal to Perrin, so if she died, so would that secret, and that is not RJ's way.<br /><br />Second;  to all you who said no good guys have died, what about the Asha'Man?  Tons have died, including some important ones like Adely and Fedwin Morr.  Morr at least was a fairly big character.  Also, if you stop for 2 SECONDS and think, there are not that many really main good guys;  there is Rand, Mat, and Perrin (and maybe Egwene and Nynaeve), but that is still only 5.  Meanwhile, there are/were 13(!) main bad guys:  Asmodean, Rahvin, Sammael, Ishmael, Be'lal, Aginor, Balthamel, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Moghidean, Semirhage, and Mesaana.  that is a lot more than the Light has, so they deserve to have their ranks thinned out a little bit.<br /><br />My thoughts.  (And I know they are right, so there is no point in trying to prove me wrong  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-30 13:41:55
subject: <b>A couple of thoughts.</b>
body:
Whether or not Faile will end up dead or not, I am still undecided. I do lean towards the answer of no, she will not. I think that Faile can be a bit irritating at times. Most of the characters can (Nynaeve, Elayne are the most notable). That just adds to the characters depth. Faile and Perrin's relationship is a good story line because it has a lot of real characteristics. I certainly hope Faile will not die.<br /><br />I am fairly certain that Berelain's man in white will turn out to be Galad (who is quite irritating himself at times).<br /><br />There has only been one fairly main &quot;good guy&quot; to die as of yet. Ingtar. I'm certain some people will say the term &quot;good guy&quot; really doesn't apply to him. Darkfriend yadda yadda yadda. He was redeemed in the end and died heroically.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society.&quot; ~Mark Twain<br /><br />&quot;No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.&quot; ~Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 17:19:05
subject: <b>About the Viewing</b>
body:
The viewing was will fall for a man in white, not has fallen for a man in white, so she wasn't at the time truely fallen for Perrin and at that time she was still deep in her attempts to steal Perrin from Faile


created: 2001-09-03 19:42:09
subject: <b>Faile won't die</b>
body:
Her death doesn't push the plot along in any useful matter. All it would do is make a lot of people sad and cause Perrin to get extremely mad. <br /><br />Not only would it saddened lots of people but it leaves Perrin in a boat without oars in the politics he is up to his neck in. Who was it that helped him the most in Two Rivers? With Alliandre? Even if he is an apt pupil it will take more than a few months to learn the ins and outs of politics. <br /><br />It also stops us from every figuring out what the Broken Crown is. Does anybody think Bashere will tell Perrin, who he will most likely consider to be the person that caused Faile's death by bringing her with him, anything about it? Let alone keep him in the line of succession.<br /><br />If anybody dies I'd pay money it will be Morgase. Firstly, it wouldn't make sense to start up a war of succession in Andor and then have the Queen show up. If Jordan wanted that to happen then he could have just kept her in Andor.<br /><br />Secondly, it would be a waste of paper to have Gawyn say he wants to kill Rand and then have his mom show back up. I just don't think that fits Jordan's style. If anything of the sort happens I'd assume it would be Galad or Lini who tells Gawyn what happened to his mother. In my opinion though, I don't see Galad or Lini and Gawyn meeting up for a while. At least not before Gawyn and Rand see each other next.<br /><br />


created: 2001-10-04 13:12:35
subject: <b>She won't die . . . right away</b>
body:
Faile is not going to die soon. In fact, she will be there at the Last Battle . . . on the bad guy's side. She's a darkfriend, you see.<br /><br />Hah, hahahahahahahahahahahahah . . . hah . . . ho . . .<br /><br />Ahem.<br /><br />All right, so it's not funny, but it's still true. Perrin once had a wolfdream (in book 3) where he was at the Last Battle, the Horn of Valere blew, and he went forward. &quot;She was waiting there for him. His lover. His destroyer.&quot; <br /><br />SHE<br />IS<br />A<br />DARKFRIEND!!<br /><br />So there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 16:45:43
subject: <b>not Faile</b>
body:
I dont think RJ meant Faile in Perrins wolfdream. Perrin remembered beeing a hero, and heroes tend to die in battle.&quot; She was waiting there for him. His lover. His destroyer.&quot; This simply refers to Death. Death was waiting there for him. I seem to recall death was mentioned as something female once before, by another fighting man, Rhuarc. <br />So stop throwing stones at Faile, she is not a Darkfriend.


created: 2001-10-26 02:16:07
subject: <b>comments</b>
body:
*weg* ?<br /><br />Whassat mean?<br /><br />I must be out of touch. Get me outta the Bore!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Shai'tan Rulz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />The Eternal Firehead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 19:33:21
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
Ok i don't think Faile is the best or all the great but why dose everyone want and think she will die?  First I can garentie that Perrin would not marry berlain if Faile dies because Faile hates her and Perrin know that, even if shes dead i don't think he'd do that to her and if she died I don't think Perrin would find another women for along time no matter what Faile said. And Faile can't die because hopper perdicted that he and Faile would have meny &quot;cubs&quot;. And if you don't count Morain dieing and coming back as a loss on the side of the light, then the dark side has only lost about 4 forasken because all the otehrs were brought back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 17:11:54
subject: <b>Min's Viewing</b>
body:
&quot;Well she'll be snubbed up sooner or later. I saw nothing of use to you, just a man in white that will make her fall head over heels in love. Some women have no shame at all&quot;.<br /><br />'Some women have no shame at all.' has nothing to do with the prophecy, it was a comment on how Berelain was wearing next to nothing at that present moment.


created: 2001-12-09 20:22:41
subject: <b>but i don't wanna die! lol</b>
body:
you do make some good points though. i don't think Perrin will ever end up with Berelain though. i do think she will eventually succeed in seducing him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> but i don't think he'll let it go beyond that in terms of a relationship


created: 2002-01-28 20:24:53
subject: <b>Berelain ROCKS</b>
body:
She is probably my second favorite woman, after Moiraine.  I got sick of Nynaeve and Elayne pretty quick.  But Berelain:  the women has SKILLS.  She kept Mayene together, and kept Cairhien from going to heck.  Sure, she tried to sleep with Rand, but that was just to make sure her little country was protected.  <br /><br />Berelain has guts, looks, and skills.  If Perrin doesn't get her, I want her.<br /><br />RJ may pull a fast one on us and give Perrin the hawk and the falcon together.  Maybe Berelain will save Faile somehow.  And besides, Berelain was just what Faile needed to get over her stupid possessiveness of Perrin.  <br /><br />Well, that's me, probably talking out of my butt, but there you have it.<br />


created: 2002-03-22 15:39:27
subject: <b>Hope not...</b>
body:
I don&#180;t think she&#180;ll die. At least I HOPE she (and the others) will survive. Just because Berelain may have feelings for Perrin doesn&#180;t mean Faile has to die, she is the only one for him. If she died, Perrin would follow her. He already lost his family, Faile is all he got left. That talk about moving on in case she died seemed to me more like just a response to Perrin&#180;s comment.  <br /><br />And remember just because Perrin may be a new Hawking doesn&#180;t mean he has to go through everything that Hawking did.<br /><br />If you ask me, I think a lot of good guys have died. Except for those mentioned there are also a lot of Aes Sedai, Aiel and lot of others who has been killed.


created: 2002-07-02 12:11:32
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
I do not hink Faile will die but I guess anything is possible because we are talking about RJ here.  If Faile does die there is no chance in hell that Perrin would hook up with her because he knows how much Faile hates her.  I think that Berelain will play a major part of helping rescue Faile so Perrin will be tied to her as well as Faile.  Berelains man in white is most definetely going to be Galad, and I think they will hook up after awhile.  This is all just my opinion of course but cahnces are Faile is not going to die anytime soon.  Oh and one more thing, I love Nynaeve's character!! Her and Avhienda and moraine are my favorite female characters!! Well I guess everyone is entitoled to their own opinion, yet I'm not sure why everyone dislikes her. K I'm done ranting.


created: 2002-07-31 18:14:04
subject: <b>Tenobia's Heir</b>
body:
First, I really like Faile, and don't think she'll die for all the reasons already listed. Plus this one.<br /><br />In PoD, when the leaders of the Borderlands are meeting, the queen of Kandor is thinking about Tenobia (Faile's cousin) and thinks she'll likely die a maiden because she's so demanding of a potential partner leaving her heir, Davram Bashere or his heir (Faile) to rule Saldaea. Was this line dropped in by coincidence or was it foreshadowing? The latter.<br /><br />Having Davram as king of Bashere doesn't seem anywhere near as interesting or complicated as having Faile as queen, esp. given the pull to have Perrin end up as king of a newly restored Manetheren. <br /><br />Plus, if Tenobia dies in battle, all you good-character-death-mongers out there can be a little bit happier!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-13 13:15:42
subject: <b>Hell, I have nothing to add but</b>
body:
I was curious if everyone knew that Faile is only 16 years old?<br /><br />Damn, I thought she was Perrin's age but she's 6 yrs younger, and since Perrin is 22...<br /><br />Good thing there aren't any underage sex laws in Randland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-31 19:05:06
subject: <b>wolves</b>
body:
first of all it was said up above that wolves aren't big on marrige. Cough. They mate for life my friend.<br />http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/Behavior/Spring2002/estesl/matingsystem.html<br /><br />Secondly Perrein draws many similarities with hawkwing both of their families died, the symbolism of the hammer ect. It is logical to assume that Berlain will marry Perrein and Faile will die. I don't like it but until we are given the Prohesy of the Broken Crown we really don't know about it. Also the Mayene soldiers are always said to be spick and span with their armor, always clean and always showy. Who thinks that it is Perrein's choice to wear Gold gilded armor mentioned in Egwene's dream? Certainly not Perrein and ESPECIALY not Faile, shes from the boarderlands no way in hell she would want that kind of armor for her husband, its like a big bullseye on he beloved.


created: 2002-10-25 21:55:47
subject: <b>faile and berelan</b>
body:
min viewed a hawk and a falcon on perrin's shoulders.<br />they were the same viewing so i think that somehow berelan is the hawk(being related to artur hawkwing) and faile(the falcon and berelan will share perrin the way min aviendha and elayne share rand


created: 2002-12-08 13:27:05
subject: <b>my views</b>
body:
First off, I hope Faile dies, I also hope Perrin dies, they are the worst characters ever, they suck.  With them together, they make the worst possible plot line, separately the make twice as much of the worst possible plot line, that being said, I will now enlighten everyone with my views.<br /><br />Perrin will not end up with two wives, that I can guarentee, he isn't Aiel.  I think Faile will die, because I dont like her, and because because she told him to move on if she died, foreshadowing is ever present in these books.<br /><br />As for people saying that Bashere would be more useful to Perrin than Berelain, I dont think that Perrin needs Bashere. Bashere is already tied to Rand.  And with the Seanchan and their Hawkwing lineage, I think being married to Berelain, a procliamed descendant of Artur, would be better for his sapling nation.<br /><br />I think it will go down like greyslayer said.  Thats probably the most realistic, but Id rather it be something awesome like Moridin comes and kills her just because he can.<br /><br />I suppose we shall see in a month.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-18 20:44:39
subject: <b>Two Problems</b>
body:
One of Min`s viewings says Beralain will fall in love with a man who is wearing white.Now I want Faile to die as much as most people but two problems.1 It could be a Whitecloak or somebody dressed in white on a reguler  bacis ( I think I spelled it wrong ) .2 In the forth book Perrin`s family was killed and in the battle where Perrin was shot by an arrow he was whearing white which you where when you are marning . So Faile can still be alive when Beralain &quot; falls in love with a man dressed in white &quot;who most people belive is Perrin .


created: 2003-02-24 17:55:03
subject: <b>i don't know.....</b>
body:
i'm really not sure about this i mean perrin and faile are meant for each other, you know their in love and all that stuff.  I think faile will just be a pain in perin's ass and nothing more.  yeah maybe her feelings have changed but i think perrin is totaly into Faile. <br />but i could be very wrong and it could end up just like you say, but who knows with RJ hes thrown us some big surprises over the last couple of years.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 19:41:44
subject: <b>'BOUT TIME!</b>
body:
I've been waiting for Faile's death ever since we first met her!  Grr...Perrin used to be such an awesome character until he met her...now it's just &quot;Faile this&quot; and &quot;Faile that&quot; and &quot;I won't be able to live without Faile&quot;.  KILL HER OFF, RJ!  YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!<br /><br />BTW, why are WoT chicks so prissy and irritating?  Is RJ trying to imply something about the female gender?  I mean, Moiraine was the coolest of the WoT leading ladies, and RJ killed her off.  WHAT IS HE SAYING?  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 11:37:30
subject: <b>Faile will not die</b>
body:
Sorry, ain't gonna happen.  The main reason I can add to all those above is the fact that she's still alive in book 10.  Perrin's been chasing her for what, three books now!?  It would be very anticlimatic for the odds to be this far against Perrin, and have the plot line drawn out for so long, only to have him actually fail.  If RJ was planning to have her die off, it would have happened in book 9, or certainly in 10.  <br /><br />I agree with the comment above that Galad makes more sense for the first, um, <br />(W)itch, of Mayene, given RJ's pattern of unexpected loves (adding to the list, Suian and Bryne, Morgase and Tallanvor, Moraine and Thom, and Logain and the red sister he has bonded who currently hates him but who is almost certainly end up being his lover)<br /><br />--Lciad


created: 2003-06-09 11:17:12
subject: <b>Faile will not die</b>
body:
Doesn`t anyone understand the Wheel?  Saying Faile is not important to the story and keeping Rerrin from being with Rand is assinine.  RJ has set up the story beautifully.  Had Faile not been captured, there would be no way that Perrin and company would not now be in Andor.  But he has to be where he is, along with Masema, the White Cloaks, the Seanchan looking for the Shaido --in order for Perrin to somehow gather all these together and bring them into Rand`s camp {minus, of course, the baddies such as Sevanna, perhaps Dain Bornhold, maybe Asunawa- you know what I mean.<br /><br />As for Perrin being King of Manetheren--not possible. Manetheren was in this age and will not be back until this age comes around again. Perrin and Faile will be Lord and Lady of The Two Rivers and perhaps King {Prince Consort} and Queen of Saldea.  Min in CoT has seen something &quot;dark&quot; about Davram Bashere, which could mean he will die.  That could also mean that Tenobia will also die {no proof of that} which could put Faile first in succession.<br /><br />For those of you who want to see &quot;good guys&quot; die, there are a couple of biggies.  There are bound to be others at the Last Battle. but I think not the principle characters. such as Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, Thom. Moiraine, Morgase, etc.<br /><br />As for Berelain, she does NOT love Perrin.  She is simply a spoiled, oversexed, egotistical woman.  She will fall madly in love with Galad{in Bk 11, I hope}.  In CoT, she has already committed herself to rescuing Faile and become a crying shoulder for Perrin.<br /><br />Why do all the men readers and some of the women hate the strong female characters?  Are they all obsessed with dominating and controlling women?<br /><br />I`ll get off my high-horse now; hope I haven`t offended anyone.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-21 10:43:27
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
While Jordan rarely puts thing in his books that have little to no use being there I seriously doubt that this will happen (if it does happen though I shall jump and shout and cry in joy!) This all seems like you're reading too much into this stuff... wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 17:23:13
subject: <b>She just can't...</b>
body:
I really think Faile is good for Perrrin. There is noway RJ would kill her off because she has to 1-Teach him how to rule. 2- Give him many &quot;cubs&quot; 3- She is the connection to the Broken Crown. 4- Perrins character was kinda weak until she showed up and made the man get a spine! 5- Perrin would go insane if Faile died, he is already losing it and she is just a captive. 6- Faile is the Falcon in Mins viewing.(Of course the Hawk is Berelain)<br /><br />Let me just add that I think Perrin will also come to care for Berelain (as much as I dislike her).She is helping him find Faile and so maybe Faile will realize that her and Berelain can get along and that Berelain does in fact love Perrin just as much, and Faile accepts this. Then Perrin can have both the Falcon and the Hawk on his shoulders.<br /><br />Though I would hate to see this Love triangle come to be.<br /><br />Strong Woman scare men and weak women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 13:11:18
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
After the intense humiliation through which Berelain is putting Perrin in CoT, I seriously doubt he'll do anything but slap her silly.<br /><br />Sorry, no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-20 17:49:22
subject: <b>ummmmm hello</b>
body:
did everyone forget about Min's viewing of Perrin in Book 1 about a broken crown?  Whatever that is it means taht Perrin will be a king, and this means more than likely that Faile will be around for awhile.  As there are not supposed to be that many books, she should be around till the end of the series.


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>What I would like</b>
body:
is someone to tell me who Demendred is then.  In WInter's Heart, at the Forsaken meeting, someone (I forget who) says that Demendred was responsible for watching Rand, if he is keeping an eye one Rand then he must be close.  I agree that he is probably not Taim but who is he?


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Who???</b>
body:
<br />Sorry, Can't remember how good demandred was in battle if he is poor, he might be Weiramon, if he's bloody good (which I don't believe) he might be Aiel (one of the Shaido).<p>I first thought that he was Dashiva, but I was wrong!!!!</p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Dittoes</b>
body:
I completely agree that Taim and Demandred cannot be the same person...my personal theory on this is that Taim WORKS FOR Demandred...<p>It's even possible that Taim has been to Shayol Ghul, although then he would have the "straws" and Rand might be able to mark him as a DF...</p><p>Can't wait for Books 10-20 to see how it all winds down...  <img src="images/tongue.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Taim-Demandred</b>
body:
Despite what everyone thinks, I've been thinking about this one little bit for quite some while. When Taim first meets Rand, everyone (thats seen him anyway) is wondering why he doesn't look like Taim. Demandred likely didn't know exactly what Taim looked like, but when he was asked at the gates of Caemlyn (I forgot how to spell it)why he didn't have a beard, he was suprised, so he thought about an excuse before he met Rand and (...sorry, forgot Failes dads name...my memory is *really* bad at this moment). What d'ya think?<br />Shadow Asha'man <img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>one comment</b>
body:
Ok, in the Lord of Chaos Taim says one thing that kinda points to him that I cant get over. He says that if he was in Sammaels place he would have Illian set up in boxes of wards. When did Taim learn about the ward that detect a mans channeling? Why is he thinking about what he would do if he was Sammael? HMM maybe because he actually is a forsaken and thinks based on the same motives as Sammael. But I dont know so....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Um... I'm not convinced</b>
body:
In regards to Perrin not smelling Taim's hate at Dumai's wells, a bit of counterevidence, Book 7, Chapter two, the Butcher's Yard, <p>"Enough!" Rand shouted. <br />They fell silent as one, but their reactions were very different. Taim's features went blank, though he smelled of fury.</p><p>'He gives Kisman, a known DF, two orders as Taim and Demandred to hide his whereabouts, even though Aginor is at the Black Tower and is $h!t scared of Moridin and would tell him everything.'</p><p>I beleive you are refering to Chapter 22, book 9, <br />"Kill him" Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.</p><p>This isn't hard to explain. Taimandred doesn't want people to know he is Taimandred, so he gives orders as Taim and Demandred. Also, he doesn't want them to be found by Aginor, because he will tell Moridin, then Moridin will find out that Demandred had ordered Rand killed. Remember there is quite a bit of friction between Dem and Moridin.</p><p>'Demandred cannot recognise an AS Face of Corele and Sarene, even though he is close enough to see Corele bushy eyebrows. This is opposed to Taim being at Dumai Wells with 30 Aes Sedai and 51 sisters now live at the Black Tower.'</p><p>You are arguing against yourself here. Demandred would obviously recognise Aes Sedai, no matter where he had been. Therefore, the fact that he does not recognise the AS face of Corelle justifies that fact that he doesn't recognise Flinn.</p><p>Also, there is a lot more evidence that a "so-called" Aiel comment that you will have to tackle. I have a working theory ready, i'll post it up soon...</p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>Get a grip people... *grin*</b>
body:
<br />Okay, people, more evidence, as if it's needed...<p>Taim ain't him...</p><p>First of all:</p><p>Not only does he fail to recognize Damer Flinn, regardless of the distance, he doesn't recognize an Asha'man (in uniform aka black coat) when he sees one...</p><p>Theory:  No contact with Asha'man for Demmy...</p><p>Second of all:</p><p>Any/all odd knowledge he has is easily explained...<br />He's been turned...</p><p>Details have never been given of (a) Taim's escape and (b) where he was for how many books after that?  (Don't remember exact sequence).</p><p>Now, Rand only sees those black cords in specific places...<br />Traveling or T'A'R seems to trigger it, which is interesting...</p><p>Who'd he learn from, you ask?  Simple...  the biologist of the Forsaken...</p><p>Aginor, aka Osan'gar, aka Corlan Dashiva...</p><p>Who talks to himself in the Old Tongue<br />Who has more than enough knowledge of Age of Legends lore to give to Taim<br />Who was also charged with watching Rand<br />Who was oddly picked by Rand without thought after Dumai's Well (never had that explained)</p><p>Note Taim's reaction to the last...</p><p>Taim was trying to press Rand into taking some of _his_ lieutenants with him, in an attempt, it appears, to get them close for the assassination attempt...</p><p>IIRC, Taim immediately and emphatically backpedals his ideas when Rand chooses Dashiva</p><p>Obvious reason:  He just lost his instructor in the Power.</p><p>That's my theory for Taim knowing AoL information...<br />He got it from Dashiva</p><p>Also note, of course, that the only Asha'man (by rank) who doesn't live with Taim is Logain, and no one knows why, though my theory is they are all turned...</p><p>Hmmm</p><p>Anyways, just a few points to ponder, guys...  </p><p>Wayeth<br />Gaidin to BobbiSedai</p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>Who is Dem?</b>
body:
Dem is supposed to be in South-West anti-AS country - sounds a lot like Amadica. Could it be <br />the he is a whitecloak? He'd never be detected by anyone, and it would be the last place<br />to look for a channeler. My monies on Eamon Valda. He got his wicked way with Morgase<br />pretty damn sharpish, and I think he looks like him. Would have been Lord Captain Commander <br />until Seanchan turned up. Now he's off somewhere with an army.<p></p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>why he dont recognise Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I tend to still favor Taim as Demandred though my mind is not completly made up yet, as I am not familiar with most of this evidence against him. One thing I do recall was already mentioned about how there where two people assigned to watch Rand,  I dont recall if Demandred displayed some form of irritation at the comment, but thought he had, becasue there was some indication that the two watching him had failed.  <p>One thing I thought was obvious, but maybe im missing something. here is why Demandred might not recognise AEs Sedai.   He is from the age of legends and the Aes Sedai from that time where not bound by the three oaths so there was nothing at that time to mark them out.  He has been in the new world what a year or so?   Id say he hasent had time to become familiar with the AEs Sedai agelessness look yet.  He hasent seemingly had all that much contact with them, though some are bound by his Ashaman.  He seems somewaht opposed to that bonding.  I think he looks at the current day Aes Sedai with contempt, and hasent realy botherd to familiarize himself with thier ageless look.   He is so use to the way it was in the age of legends also, that his first reaction is to look for nothing or what ever it was you looked for in the age of legends to tell when a female channelr was around.</p>


created: 2001-04-19 00:00:00
subject: <b>A couple notes i stumbled over from WH</b>
body:
<br />First about weather Taim and/or Demandread sould recognize Aes Sedi.  In the prologue of WH  Taim is confronting Elaine, He coments to the two Ashamen with him "use your eyes, there are only two Aes Sedai".  This is fairly important one way or the other, a clear indiaction Taim can recognize Aes Sedai.  However the Aes Sedai he recognized has to be taken into consdieration.  One of wich was Elaine, who has not sworn the three oaths, so she does not have the Aes Sedai agelesness.  Also it is fairly well knowen that young Aes Sedai even after taking the oaths cannot  be recoognized by the ageless face it takes some time after having sworn the oath to achive that look.  Therefore we must assume that when Taim was saying to use thier eyes he meant for them to look for the Aes Sedai rings wich Elaine and all Aes Sedai wear.<p>  This could also be an indication, that while taim is familiar with the Aes Sedai serpent ring he may not yet be familiar with the face. </p><p><br />Now id like to make a couple points about Demanderd and his relation to Ashman and why he may not have recognized the one that confronted him in the final battle in WH.  <br />  First it should be clear that Demandred Is familiar with Ashamen, wasent it after all an Ashamen he told to kill Rand?  That very much controversial order given by him and Taim both.  This indicates he has agents among the Ashamen and is familiar therfore with how they dress.  It also comes to mind to wonder why on earth if he is not connected to the Ashamen he is using them for his tools, and why the same exact one as Taim?  If they are his personal agents wouldnt it be a diffrent one then was the primary agent of Taim, and if he is working through Taim,  wouldnt he be well aware that Taim had already given the order, indeed wouldnt he have simply given the order to Taim himself? Looked at in this light it would seem TaimDemandred gave the order twice for the very reason of trying to make a disassosiation between the two.  Why on earth make the cover of Taim under they eyes of Rand only to reveal it to any old expendaly Dark Friend, Ashamen or not.  Why arent they recognized as the same person?  He is using a disguise under one of the identities, he also knowes how to invert his weaves as is clearly showen in the final fight of WH.</p><p>  As far as the Final Battle in WH goes as to why Demandred didnt recognize the Ashaman and the Aes Sedai.  As the scene goes he notices an old man with a fringe of white hair limping between two women.   It also says the old mans head was turning as if he was searching for something,  an indication he was not facing Demandred wich is why he didnt recognise the man.  Also given the fact that Demandred must be familiar with ashamen it is very clear his vision of this ashamen was not clear or he would have recognized the black coat.  The scene indicates he saw the three people shelterd behind a rough grey trunk.  As for the Aes Sedai they where clearly not close enough to make out the rings on thier fingers.  From the book "Demandred doubted a fellow that decrpit could see very far".  This indicates they where at least a fair distance away, if close enough for Demandred to make out a limp and a bald head with a fringe of white hair, both of wich are things that would stand out to some degree.  This also shows that he was thinking of him as a decrpit old man, ashaman was not in his head, despite the fact that he is familiar with ashamen.  If you see this particular Ashamen in a black coat you may see an old man with a limp, but above and beyond that you see an ashaman.  If you see him without the coat all you see is an old man with a limp as did Demandred, because he dint see the Ashamans face or coat.<br />When Demandred realizes the fellow is an ashaman he is obviously to busy fending off attacks to place at that moment this particular ashaman.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Finaly what i feel is a telling blow that id like to be explained away.  WH chapter 13: "You where responsable for watching over him osan'gar, you and Demandred."  Osan'gar was Dashiva, the him referd to was Rand.  So from where does Demandred wath over him?  not from the south im guessing.</p>


created: 2001-04-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>the Ashamans coat</b>
body:
First of all i do not think Taim and Demandred is the same person.<p>One prof of this is the Ashamans coat. Is it. if i do't rememder corektly the Ashaman in Rands party stopt using the coats after they were bound as wanderers to the AS thet traveld to Far Dara. plase coret me if im wrong i do't have acess to the books rigt now but if my memory servs me right they did not use ther black coats at the final batele in WH</p>


created: 2001-04-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
First off count me on the anit-Taimandred side of things.<p>   Secondly yes the black coats were in fact absent from those male channelers with Rand. However it has been previously pointed out that Flynn was someone that Taim should have recognized up close, where as Demandred did not.</p><p>   Thirdly it seems that Taims knowledge of things he should not have known about was because of Dashiva/Osangar being his Forsaken tutor. We can all be fairly sure that even if he aint Deman that Taim is a darkfriend, a very important one to boot. Since it sould then seem plausible that aginor/osangar/dashiva/only-forsaken-that-died-twice-that-we-are-sure-of is his teacher and his superior. </p><p>   This would make Taim his little pupil (or whatever term you prefer) so Deman would stay way from him for the most part because it's one of those unwritten trules that you don't mess with another Forsakens underlings. None of the ashamon darkfriends seemed in on the fact that Dashiva was one of the chosen. So all they knew was that Taim was a top dawg darkfriend. </p><p>   Now who would you be more afraid of pissing off? A top darkfriend that probably has connections to one of the forsaken, or one  of the Forsaken themselves? So Demandred decided to go after the darkfriends at the blacktower that he knew of and use them to launch the attack on Rand. Taim had reasons of his own for doing it. Perhaps Osangar was using him as a proxy so that if the killing failed he could cop a plea of ignorance:</p><p>   "But Moridin, I told Taim not to kill Rand, he was too stupid to listen and died because of it."</p><p>   SO there is a lot of stuff to rule out the Taimandred theory. Anyone want more?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Out of This</b>
body:
I would like to make it clear I am entirely neutral in this debate. Demandred could be Taim. Of course, there are a few other characters he could be, too. The chances are even. I think he is likely to be one of these:<br />Taim (see above evidence)<br />Weiramon<br />A Whitecloak<br />Perrin's Beard<br />Masema<br />My vote would be for a Whitecloak, fairly high up, but not Eamon Valda. We've had a POV from him. This would fit the :"blundering around trying to find him". I don't really believe the Masema  or Weiramon ones, but they are possibilities. My favourite, though, is Perrin's Beard, or Beardandred. After all, you never know..... <img src="images/tongue.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Whoa, my first post</b>
body:
I like the idea of Dashiva/Osangar/Aginor teaching Taim a bunch of stuff. Really works for all the old tongue stuff <br />and the famous Aiel comments. One thing about Demandred -- as I recall, he was sticking pretty close to Shayol<br />Ghul to help his chances for becoming Nae'Blis. So sending darkfriends (especially a False Dragon, who's <br />probably going to be pretty tough in the Power) to keep an eye on him would fit his style more. Also, if Demandred<br />has been told to keep Rand alive, and then passed the word on to Taim, then Taim's concern for Rand's mental <br />health right at their first meeting would be consistent. <p>Anyway, I thought that WH made it pretty clear that Demandred and Taim were in two different places. </p><p>(Note to Wotmania -- I typed it like this so I could see everything on the screen at once. You can take out this note if you want.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sorry, I'm new at this</b>
body:
Well, the formatting really didn't work, not to mention my little PS . . . <img src="images/disapprove.gif" /><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>makes sense...</b>
body:
ur right, it could be, they just look alike.....I read in the World of robert jordans wheel of time book, that Demandred has a hawk shaped nose.....which would fit Taim, b/c Taim would be from Saldea....and I think I read once that most ppl there have a hawk shaped nose(think about Faile)


created: 2001-08-01 00:50:48
subject: <b>Taim is not, and will never be, Demandred</b>
body:
Okay, here is *some* of my proof;<br /><br />In WH, (pg 644 hardcover) with Demandred:  &quot;The old man's head was turning as if he was searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.  Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand strait toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would.  THAT TOTTERING OLD MAN WAS AN ASHA'MAN!&quot;  (emphasis mine, see the &quot;&#176;&quot; for more info) &quot;And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring&quot;<br /><br />&#176;  Now, as for my argument:  Demandred did not recognize Flinn, and, indeed, even know him as an Asha'man, until it was almost too late.  That does not sound like someone who trained the guy in the first place. Think about it.  One, if Demandred was Taim, he would have definately have recognised Flinn, and Flinn would have recognized him.  Two, with Flinn, there was no recognition of the man he was trying to kill, nothing that meant Flinn saw the &quot;M'hael&quot;, (sp?) for if Demandred was going to try to kill Rand, he would not have gone as Demandred.  He would likely have gone as someone known, to reduce the chances of being attacked.<br /><br />If anyone has any evidence that can blow this argument to smithereens, (because that is what you would need to do) I would like to see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-24 02:57:32
subject: <b>Taim/Demandred</b>
body:
A Mask f Mirrors could have been woven by Taim/Demandred to hide the features of an Asha'man loyal to the Shadow. There are ways of this being possible, one I have mentioned. I bet if you ask people they will have other ways. I am not sure if Taim is Demandred. There is the fact that Taim was around befroe the Forsaken were loose. But nothing is told of Taim before the time the Forsaken were freed. Demandred could have become Taim to hide. What better place to hide from the Dragon Reborn than right under his nose? I'll let you think on it.


created: 2002-10-03 17:27:07
subject: <b>a</b>
body:
If Demadred were Taim, he probably wouldn't have used illusion to disguise himself.<br /><br />He could have come in as Taim, announced himself, and said that the channeling could be felt all the way from X and that everyone should expect an attack.  Maybe he even gives some info about where he felt the other Forsaken, if he knew where any where - why not get in a better position with Rand's guardians and remove his rivals at the same time.<br /><br />Once he gets close enough, he spins some inverted weaves, or maybe makes a play for the Choden Kal (sp?).<br /><br />Trying to sneak up to Rand would just invite attack from whatever security he has.


created: 2003-03-22 11:14:55
subject: <b>Taim is not Demandred</b>
body:
I used to be sitting on the fence for this one, but after re-reading the series (I'm on book 7 right now) I am sure Taim is not Demandred.  The piece of evidence that sticks out most in my mind is Dumai's Wells, in Chapter 2 of CoS.  Perrin smells the emotions of everyone present, and not once does he smell hate from Taim.  Not once.  He smells hate from Rand when he looks at Taim, and fury from Taim when Rand shouts &quot;Enough&quot;, but not hate.  There is no way that if Demandred was Taim, Perrin wouldn't smell hate from him even once for the entire time the conversation goes on.  Unless the Taimandred theorists propose Demandred has learned to disguise the scent of his emotions with the Power (impossible, seeing as wolfbrothers were ancient history even in the Age of Legends), Taim is not Demandred.<br /><br />I really like the theory that between his &quot;rescue&quot; at the hands of the BLACK AJAH and his appearance in Caemlyn, Taim was turned by a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrdraal. The fact that we find out about the rescue plan from captured Black Ajah convinces me that the sisters that freed Taim were all Black Ajah (what non-Darkfriend sister would go along with that plan?), and how hard would 13 Fades be to round up in the Borderlands?<br /><br />I also like the theory that Dashiva was teaching Taim.  This explains away the Old Tongue terms, the Aiel reference and Taim not wanting Rand to have Dashiva as his Asha'man guard at Dumai's Wells.<br /><br />As for Taim and Demandred both giving the order to kill Rand, the arguement that he did it from both to throw off suspicion is weak.  Who knew he was giving the order? Only the Asha'man.  It's not like while the Asha'man were killing Rand they were going to say, &quot;By the way, Taim and Demandred both gave us this order, so if we fail killing you, don't suspect Demandred of being Taim.&quot;  Please.  We've seen the followers of the Shadow scheme against each other and against their superiors so often, it should come as no surprise that Taim orders Rand killed without Demandred's consent, and Demandred orders Taim killed without Moridin's consent.<br /><br />I think it's obvious Taim is Demandred's pawn, or will be now that Aginor is dead (again).  We have seen before the Forsaken sharing/stealing pawns. i.e., Sammael snatching up Jaichim Carridin after Ishamael dies and Moghedien igving orders to Liandrin and her cronies as soon as she discovers them in Tanchico.<br /><br />As for who Demandred really is, I think he might be a Forsaken like Moghedien, assuming minor roles when he has to but generally steering clear.  I think he was the peddler that meets Gawyn (Mil Tesen? I can't remember the exact name).  I think he has his hands in Masema's following, and the Whitecloaks.  I think he's using Compulsion on Rhadam Asunawa.  In CoT Asunawa is reading a book for new recruits, and it's been mentioned people with a strong mind that have had Compulsion used on them try to go back to their basics to break free of it (witness Morgase going back to Lini).  I think it was because of Demandred that Asunawa ordered the death of Pedron Niall, and the stink Eamon Valda smells in CoT is Demandred making a gateway to Shayol Ghul after giving Asunawa his new orders.


created: 2003-04-24 13:55:59
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I for one don't believe taim and Demandred are the same person either.  Some very interesting thoughts in that last post though.  I guess I had sort of skimmed over some of the things that happened in whitecloak land without really thinking of there significance.  Asunawa being either a darkfriend or compelled makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.<br /><br />As far as who Demandred REALLY is....I can honestly say I am not sure.  He was supposedly charged with keeping an eye on Rand which suggests some sort of close proximity.  Up to the point where Jordan came out and proved otherwise I had sort of suspected Dashiva.  Seeing as Dashiva turned out to be Aginor it is my opinion that this rules out the possibility of any of the Asha'man being Demandred.  The Forsaken may all be on the same side under the dark one but rarely do they work well together otherwise...always scheming against each other for position.  Very doubtful that 2 of them would have been that close to one another and just as unlikely that either one would have been able to hide his presence from the other in such a situation...at least that's my opinion.  That leaves both far too many and far too few possibilities.  Quite a few people left that we may not be 100% sure of either way but not many that make sense.  Wieramon?  Not a chance IMO.  He far too often shows himself to be an idiot and while Demandred may be one of the forsaken he is far from stupid.  Bashere?  I haven't seen 1 thing that makes me suspect him...so I'd tend to say not a chance there either.  How many others are really in a position to &quot;keep an eye&quot; on Rand?<br /><br />Aside from my opinion that 2 of the forsaken would't be in such close proximity and the various parts of the books that seem to indicate that he isn't....I would say that Taim makes more sense than anyone else.  Unfortunately just because it might make sense doesn't mean it's so...or maybe fortunately...I really like a good surprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>Saint</b>
body:
<br />DO likes Strongness, Dragon is probably the after Creator and DO, DO is sure he will win so what the hell!!!!!!!!!!


created: 2001-04-18 00:00:00
subject: <b>It Doesnt Matter if Rand Dies</b>
body:
It doesnt matter if Rand dies before Tarmon Gaidon because who ever touches Callondor after he dies becomes the Dragon.<br />For proof read "The Dragon Reborn" you'll see what I'm talking about. Does !!!BELAL!!! ring a bell.


created: 2001-04-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>whatever</b>
body:
you forgot the crap asspect...yes, this is dogger, tryin to make your life hell, but i dont want to make my rep hell, so ill just leave my immatuirty at that...


created: 2001-04-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>why theDO wants him to live and why noone else will be dragon reborn</b>
body:
hmmmm....well, you`ll find that the actual reson the DO want rand to live is so he can be turned to the shadow , which , and i`m not sure which book it`s in , is mentioned as being the DO `s biggest triumph. Any group of Aes Sedai could break him out as Lanfear and helper manged it in the AOL .On the subject of someone touching Callandor after him , Narshima already has ( in "a crown of swords" he gets it from tear for Rand ), but the prophicy actually says who ever draws callandor next will " follow after him" not actually become dragon reborn ........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Other Possibility</b>
body:
Another possibility that the DO wanted Rand to live was that if Rand is causing a whole lot of Chaos (thus, lord of Chaos) and conquering different lands, then a lot of the forces of the light (or non Dark friends if you like) will be concentrating their efforts on Rand, and not on the DO's minions.  This enables him to gather and build his forces unhindered.  Plus he doesn't have to fight a single, combined force, he can face several smaller forces which would make it a lot easier for him.  I mean if Rand is fighting the Shaido, Seanchan, a possibly toss in a few nations in the mix, Rand starts to spread himself out a bit thin.  This would make it so much easier for the DO's forces to crush him, and then crush the remaining forces in the world. <p>To me that seems to be a logical reason why the DO would want Rand alive and causing as much trouble as he is capable of!!</p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>The DO really wants Rand alive</b>
body:
The DO wants Rand to live because at the last battle it is going to be Lewis Therin in Rand's body and The DO can't resist driving him completely over the edge.  Once Therin is in control, he will destroy all the good guys and go completely nuts.  Thus the DO wins by default.  Or conversely, he is going to tell Rand that he can rid him of Therin forever if he will follow him and he will throw in new life for Min if Rand will submit.


created: 2001-05-17 12:51:41
subject: <b>Strength and Order</b>
body:
Do you remember the piece of paper from Mr Fel (the philospher that got hacked) that Min still has which says she is too pretty.  On that paper it also says something to the effect Peace and Order strengthen. (Forgive me, I do not have the books at hand for an exact quote.)  My theory is that this statement was in reference to the seals on the Dark One's prison.  They are weakened by the chaos and strife in the world.  If Rand instills Peace and Order, the Dark One must wait longer for the prison to break, and for him to be freed.  That is why he ordered Demandred to let the Lord of Chaos rule.  The more chaos in the world, the more the seals will weaken.  <br /><br />But then Rand took over Illian and reinstalled order there..<br />He figured out how to cleanse Saidin, removing the possibility of madness racking the world again.  And now evil is worried again.  And therefore Rand must now die.  <br /><br />At the beginning of Path of Daggers when Moridin finds out they have Bowl of Winds to fix the weather, he describes how angry the Dark One will be since he strained to set the seasons in place.  Imagine how pissed off the Shadow are now that his taint has been removed.<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-22 07:09:24
subject: <b>&quot; Imagine how pissed off the Shadow are now that his taint has been removed.&quot;</b>
body:
aah, what a thought.  It warms the heart and brings a smile of unrivaled joy to ones face.<br /><br />you can just imagine the mood that the DO is in now,.....in fact I've got to stop typing cause I'm laughing too much.<br /><br />cheers for that one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 16:38:00
subject: <b>Rand must live!</b>
body:
The Dragon is the most powerful channeler of Saidin in at least 2 ages.<br />Without the battle, the prison cannot be broken. The prison is more than simply where the DO is kept, it is the entire WOT itself. Until the WOT is destroyed, the DO is still imprisoned, he just has all the cells open to him instead of just is one 10x10 cell. To the DO, breaking into the world of the WOT means he can take over the entire prison. He wants more (see EoTW), he wants to &quot;slay the serpent&quot; and &quot;break the wheel of time&quot;.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>where's the physics?</b>
body:
unfortunately, your theory involves no quantum mechanics or particle physics as you claimed.  I was looking forward to a theory involving tunnelling or the uncertainty principle somehow, although I have no idea why that would come up.<p>Your theory solely involves time paradoxes anyone can understand, but I still disagree with your theory.</p><p>She goes to the Aelfinn regardless of the letter.  She writes the letter to get rescued.  The futures she sees show what happens if she does x.  (If that is what she wrote at all, but why tell Thom?)</p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>There's no paradoxes here...</b>
body:
The first thing i'd like to state that ALL possible futures/pasts/nows exists simultaneuosly. You just have to find the right Portal stone...<br />I agree with Bad Ash and Roark, the letter probably has the names of the red sisters in it yet I do not believe it includes a plea for help, since Moraine does not know more than that Lanfear must die on this day. She does however "know my husband('s face) better than you do yours I'll wager"-or something very close to that, which probably is Thom...<br />Min talks about her viewing and she is NEVER wrong, so Moraine will be back someway or another, and then there is the "pulls a blue jewl out of the fire". Actually I just had an idea.<br />Egwene has Moraine's jewel. Egwene knows that somewhere somebody is riding to her rescue (future) from execution. There are indications that she might be heading for the heads-man (last lines of PoD). This saviour could be Thom whit a letter to prove Elaida stilled a man without a trial (breaking the law) thus getting her deposed (far flung I know) and/or stilled! I'd LOVE that. Making her beg for healing. Healing her weaker than most others...[evil grin].


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Say...</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be possible that the letter is included in all time loops?<p>We don't know what moiraine saw.  Perhaps her future veiwing was her pushing Lanfear into the red twsity door, and she knew what those doors were.</p><p>In light of that, she wrote a letter, and lather, rinse, repeat.</p><p>Remember Rand only saw glimpses of past lives, the Aiel split from the tinkers, Tinker's being raided, all the way back to the AoL.  Perhaps Moiraine only saw glimpses of her future, as Rand did his past.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Another piece of info...</b>
body:
Right after Moiraine left the FIRST doorway, in Tear, she told Thom that she would see him again, when she sent him w/ Nyn. and Elayne to Tanchico. The way she said it (can't quite rember) made it a statement of fact. She could not have said that unless she knew it was true. So far, she has not seen Thom again. I figure, something in the first doorway told her that Thom had something to do w/ her future. As the snakes (or were these the foxes? Whatever) don't lie, this must be true. Therefore, Thom must be coming to Moiraine's rescue, allowing her to see him again.


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>time never began</b>
body:
Alright now you must remember that this series is called the WHEEL OF TIME. and one of the main priciple's is that time moves in a wheel forever repeating it self, so therefore, ( and to some this is a BIG therefore), time never started it always exesited,  a better way to say this is that in the possible futures Moriane say that she had to write the letters, it is  a loop that never ends and has always happened.


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>The mysterious letter</b>
body:
As has been pointed out, we don't know exactly what was in the letter or for that fact what she saw in the "future".  But ponder on this.....<p>Take into account Min's viewing abilities.  As Min herself explains, her viewings ALWAYS come true, regardless of what people try to do to avoid it.  It could be that the viewings that Moraine saw of her future work along the same lines.  If that is so, then writing a letter, or jumping off a cliff, would make little difference to what is going to happen - it is a given that if she saw it, it will happen!</p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why didn't it happen before?</b>
body:
Since all of the Wise Ones since the destruction of Rhuidean and the loss of the Jenn Aiel have gone through the rings, having such time-altering effects would wreak havoc on pretty much everything.  Think about it this way... suppose Wise One #1 sees something in the rings and changes her behavior/actions to prevent said events.  This could mean that what Wise One #2 sees never even comes into play in reality.  That doesn't happen (or if it did, it would probably have come up at some point, since there is some discussion on what Moiraine going into the rings means).  Thus, it's more likely that Moiraine's action of writing her letter is part of the future she sees in the rings.  Who knows... maybe she even saw herself writing the letter.


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>When</b>
body:
<br />When did she write the bloody letter in the first place, she had little time in Tear, to write letter but she didn't give it to Thom, 'cause he might have done something in Tarabon that would but girls in danger and that's why Moiraine kept the letter for herself!!!<p>We know what she saw in the rings, but did she know that she will survive going throuhgt doorframe, probably 'cause she let Lan's bond go!!!</p><p>But what would have happend if DR would go throught that doorframe!!</p><p>I think that Mat will tell Tuon that (snakes) told him he will marry DotNM and she will stubbornly walk throught doorframe!!</p><p>Mat is denied,'cause you can go only ones but Thom will go with Mat (how, don't know) and Olver who is far from Mat will go throught he's been warned!!!</p><p>These Four will save Moiraine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Re: when</b>
body:
Isn't it interesting how the use of excessive exclaimation doesn't make an unfounded speculation become an accepted theory!<br /><img src="images/angel.gif" /> <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>RIght on Bors</b>
body:
Right on man. I won't bother responding to this theory as the various comments that I have to make will probably end up being big enough to be a theory in it own right.<p>   In fact I think I'll go write it now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Moiraine's Letter <img src="images/moiraine.gif" /></b>
body:
<img src="images/aessedai.gif" />I think in the letter to Thom were the names of some Red Ajah members responsible for the gentling of Owen--Thom's nephew.  MOiraine said that whatever was in the letter, she had promised to Thom--and she had promised him that if he went to Tanchico with Elayne and Nynaeve, then she would give him those names.  She felt that they had done wrong and that he was skilled enough in the Game of Houses to make use of the names.  It is possible that there was other stuff in the letter that we don't know about, but I'm pretty sure those names were in there. <img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>What If???</b>
body:
What if (and I know i'll take some heat for this) Moiraine's future husband is NOT Thom, as is currently believed by most everyone?  What if it's like, I dunno, one of the Fins or something?  That would be interesting! Ha!  But say yeah, the letter to Thom is the names of The AS responsible for gentling Owyn.  Maybe the price Moi had to pay to get out of Finnland was marriage to one of them?  who knows why...Mat's POV said they (second doorway finns) were all old and dusty and whatnot...so, say they needed some breeding stock or something? So, maybe she just thinks she knows the face of her husband, but it's really just the face of someone she has to sleep with.  Moi is Carhienen and we all know how prim and proper they are--she probably equates sharing a bed with getting married.  If an AS believes something is true, they can speak it, and she never actually SAID that she knew who her future husband would be...she said she wagered she knew.  Well, i've stirred the pot enough for now, and I bravely await the oncoming firestorm!  Tai'shar Wittenberg!!  <img src="images/king.gif" />


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Thing is...</b>
body:
This whole theory is based on Moirain changing the past/future by writing that letter.  She did not, however, ever do such a thing.  The way i see it, moiraine saw three different possible views of the future.  Using that information, She wrote to Tom on how to save her (assuming that part).  What your trying to say is that because of writing this letter she has now gone into the past and changed the fate she later sees, but no one has ever said that the Three Rings offer definite truth.  Therefore, the letter never changed her fate.  Side's, maybe she saw hereself writing the letter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A logical progression on the timeline<br />The seperation narrowed down to a fine line<br />To blur the edges so they blend together properly<br />Take you on an audible odyssey<br /><br />Its Goin Down</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>You are reading way too much into the letter ....</b>
body:
The letter is obviously her fulfilling her bargain with Thom.  She told him that if he left Rand, she would see that he was given the names of the sisters whom "gentled" his nephew Owyn. That's the reason she wrote him the letter ... its just that plain simple, not some elaborate plan for her to see herself rescued. Moiraine was smarter than that ... she knew the prophecies couldn't be fulfilled until the were weaved out into the pattern, not just when Rand wanted to ... therefore, she also must have the logic to see that nothing she could do would change what the pattern weaves out. So if she's rescued, she's rescued ... if not, she gets some snake/fox tail for the next few centuries ....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2180.gif" /> ROONAS <br /><br />Admin<br />Near-Brother to Jeordam<br /><font face="courier new"><font color="steelblue"><b>KORY, JOE - you both are missed!</b></font></font><br /><br /><br />&quot;Oh, in the company of the privileged and the nearly damned<br />Mixing like a cocktail of pure spirits slammed&quot; ~ 311<br /></font><p><a href="http://www.sacredpie.com/" target="_blank">Sacred Pie</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 16:50:44
subject: <b>Playing Shai'tan's Advocate</b>
body:
The time-loop business is beyond the scope of the story as it is presented. Yes, ages come and go and come again, but there is no time-travel action involved, no characters consciously maneuver among ages, and there are no in-age methods of pre-altering events, which is what the &#8216;Back to the Future&#8217; analogy suggests. <br /><br />Moiraine went into the ter&#8217;angreal in Tear and asked her three questions. One of her answers told her she had to go to Rhuidean, where she has her vision of three possible results of events on the docks, one involving her and Lanfear entering the other doorway from Rhuidean outside of Cairhen. <br /><br />I do not believe her dead, since she clearly told Thom she would see him again just before she bargained with him to send him to Tanchico, and since Egwene&#8217;s dreams included things Moiraine has not yet done. Therefore, she released Lan&#8217;s bond on entering the doorway ter&#8217;angreal, or perhaps the doorway&#8217;s destruction blocked the bond, since the interior of the Tower of Ghenjei is apparently in another reality, even maybe another world, and with the loss of the connecting doorway the bond is useless. I prefer to think she released it, knowing what was going to happen. The only part of believing this that bothers me is to think that releasing the bond induced the same reaction in Lan as the trauma of his Aes Sedai&#8217;s death. <br /><br />Moiraine&#8217;s letter certainly contains the information she promised Thom about those who led to Owyn&#8217;s death, but almost as certainly an expression of her affection for him. When Mat delivers the letter and asks who it is from, (can&#8217;t recall the exact wording and not having the books at hand) enemy, friend or lover, Thom&#8217;s cryptic and melancholy answer indicates something of all three (correct me if I&#8217;m wrong here, but that&#8217;s how I recall it). For Thom to express even the slightest consideration of Moiraine as lover is news at this point, but there is a previous thought from Thom&#8217;s POV that indicates an attraction to Moiraine, but is rejected because she is Aes Sedai, an aversion caused by his deep emotions about his nephew's treatment at the hands of Aes Sedai.<br /><br />The timing of when Owyn was gentled seems to have been more than twenty years before Moiraine discovers Rand, and therefore before the Foretelling of his birth. This places it before Elaida becomes Morgase&#8217;s advisor as well. I am convinced that she led the crew who gentled Owyn illegally. Thom will arrive in Tar Valon just in time to prevent Egwene&#8217;s execution at Elaida&#8217;s order, fulfilling the her dream of someone rushing to save her from the headsman's axe. However, something else is still missing from this, because in the Tower&#8217;s current state, a letter from Moiraine will have little more validity than one from Siuan as evidence of Elaida's treachery, since they were tied together in their plots, as known to Elaida. We will see what is provided for this additional proof. Once Thom sees justice for Owyn&#8217;s destroyers and personal closure for his own guilt in this business, it will release him from his aversion to Aes Sedai, and duty will set him on the path to saving Moiraine.<br /><br />Lord Savaunt replied to this thread with some similar suggestions, but denies that Moiraine would be likely to become involved with Thom, since she is supposedly a lesbian. (I can&#8217;t recall even a shaded reference to her and Siuan being &#8216;pillowfriends&#8217;, merely close friends as novices, but I accept that I might have missed it)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 18:24:43
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
Mabye the way that time is supposed to work is that she sends the letter. That would fit with why it was done in this loop.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 16:16:05
subject: <b>I can't think of a title.</b>
body:
Two points:<br /><br />1. Anything that Moiraine (or anyone else) does that affects the past does not change the course of time in any way. Anything that has happened happened: if it happened differently the present would be different, so as it isn't it didn't and won't. Time-travel results in no paradoxes. Killing one's grandfather is not a problem: you can try it, but either he wasn't your real grandfather, or it was just a flesh-wound. Attempting to change the past, or escape from prophecy, only aids it in coming about.<br /><br />2. It is probably not a good idea to take all one's knowledge of quantum mechanics and paradoxical philosophy from the Back to the Future films. At the risk of being accused of Blasphemy, I would advance the opinion that they are, in fact FICTIONAL, and thus may not be entirely accurate when it comes to the mysteries of the universe


