# w_comment

created: 2002-06-20 10:39:19
subject: <b>The Lanfear idea is fun.</b>
body:
I like that idea.  Because as we all know Lanfear loved Lews Therin and transferred her feelings to Rand because she believed him to be Lews incarnate.  So lets say at the Last Battle she, that is Cyndane, realizes that she can't win and that even though the DO will fail, her past love will die or not fully accomplish what he must do.  So she helps him, thus help him.  Fun thought to play with.


created: 2002-06-20 10:51:37
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Let's see...<br /><br />&#8220;What good to tell him [Rand] he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&#8221;<br />A Crown of Swords (p. 543, hard cover) <br /><br />&#8220;Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only vision of hers that had ever failed.&#8221;<br />A Crown of Swords (p. 546 hard cover) <br /><br />First of all, RJ has stated that the assumption that all but one of Min's visions have come true is a false assumption.  [AOL Post ACoS Question and Answer, 1996.]  I doubt that anyone thinks Min is by any means fallible.<br /><br />Okay, there's no direct link between the two.  Who else could the woman who was dead and gone be??  I seriously doubt Lanfear.  I'm sure Min would make more of a statement if Lanfear were that woman.  C'mon, Lanfear is a &quot;rival&quot; of sorts for Rand's love, let alone the most powerful of the female Forsaken.  Morgase??  Nah, the key to holding Andor is Elayne, not Morgase.  Morgase is not really welcome in Caemlyn due to her acts under Gaebril's influence.  Elayne would have as much influence on Gawyn and Galad as their mother could, even reassuring the two that Rand did not kill Morgase.  Hrm, who else could there be.  An important character who is thought dead but, according to other clues in the books, is destined to return (or be rescued) at some point.  Ahah, I know.  Moiraine!<br /><br />RJ has stated in several interviews that he is surprised at how often readers try to discount obvious clues in the books.  We, as readers, sometimes tend to overanalyze. <br />I think I'll stick to the theory that Rand needs Moiraine.


created: 2002-06-20 12:05:31
subject: <b>Moraine's husband</b>
body:
I had always taken Min's &quot;failed vision&quot; to be one she'd had regarding Moraine marrying Thom.  We wouldn't necessarily have heard about it, since Min rarely shares other people's auras, and it would go further towards explaining Moraine's cryptic &quot;I know the face of the man I'm going to marry&quot; bit in Tear.  Most people seem to think that refers to something she saw in her test for Accepted, but I've always thought it had to be something more recent.  Aren't these the kinds of threads Jordan is always tying together?  <br /><br />I like the theory, but there's way too much invested in the returning Moraine theory even without Min's vision.  Especially since we've now seen that Cyndane (Lanfear) made it out.


created: 2002-06-20 12:46:35
subject: <b>just one question.....</b>
body:
when did Min ever meet Morgase so as to have a viewing of her?  (answer:  never)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 13:18:17
subject: <b>I like this theory alot</b>
body:
I am all for Moraine not being the woman and nt coming back to life.  I have been trying to make people see that Rand, Mat, Thom and everyone else, doesn't even know about the Tower of Ghenji.  When they are first introduced to it (or what we believe it is) was by Bayle.  I don't remember him naming the tower at all!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 13:23:37
subject: <b>What about Birgitte!</b>
body:
Birgitte is certainly a woman who is dead and gone.  Plus the pattern linked Birgitte with saving LTT. Why can't it do it again?<br /><br />I agree Moiraine is a good option.  (The absence of proof is not proof of absence.)  Birgitte is almost as good, though.  As this theory points out Morgase may be a wild card, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 13:28:05
subject: <b>She has never met Morgase</b>
body:
So min's viewing can't be about her.  She has met Lanfear and Moiraine, so logically, it has to be about one of those two.  I'm pretty confident those two quotes are connected, and that it is Moiraine that is referred to, but I must admit the idea of Lanfear being neccessary for Rand's victory is intriging.  That could make for an interesting TG.<br /><br />I do think that Morgase is critical for Rand's victory, because by showing she is alive, she ties up many loose ends, such as Gald, Gawyn, and that fact that Rand isn't a cold-hearted killer.  It will also help heal some of Rand's pain.<br /><br />If you recall, Rand first started hardening himself when he discovered Morgase was dead.  Moiraine's death the next day pushed him over the edge, where he started trying to distance himself from those he loves to protect him.  By discovering Morgase is alive, he might soften up a bit.


created: 2002-06-20 13:44:10
subject: <b>Charin Stonebow...</b>
body:
You beat me to it, dang you! Eyeless Myrddraal: Here's to a big DUH!!!!!!! Have you read through any theories on Moiraine and Thom? If you haven't, I'll tell you what they are based on: the quote from Moiraine that she knows the face of her future husband, and the quote FROM MIN THAT SAYS MOIRAINE WAS HER ONLY FAILED VISION. Now, while I'll admit that, hey, those are just theories too, those theories completely destroy the point of your theory.<br /><br />In my opinion, the two quotes from the books that you're using ARE NOT CONNECTED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 14:26:31
subject: <b>Great</b>
body:
We get no new theories for a while, and when the admins finally decide to start posting again, we get crap like this to sift through. My argument against this theory has already been covered by Charin Stonebow and The Dragon Lews TheRIN. This theory has absolute no substance, because the two quotes that E.M. seperated to create this theory were never connected in the first place. Come on, admins, start posting theories that are actually thought-provoking instead of insult-provoking. And what happened to the humor theories... last one I saw was the case of the missing pending theories a few weeks back...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Jahar Narishma... the walking weapon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Forever hating AoC scum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> May my sword remain at the throat of idiots like the AoC <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> My path is that of evil... evil is my path. Watch my footsteps, do not follow, death is the price <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 14:44:09
subject: <b>The Dragon Lews TheRIN</b>
body:
Read my theory again, very carefully, and then tell me that what you said makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 15:19:42
subject: <b>Ashaman Jahar Narishma and Lews TheRIN</b>
body:
You criticise me for separating two quotes that were never connected. That means I've got something <i>right</i>. So many people, in fact nearly everyone I've seen talk or post theories about the subject, assume that these quotes are about the same viewing. One single example of this is Had's theory &quot;A Possible Way to Enter the Tower of Ghenjei&quot; in the Miscellaneous category. It is assumed by so many people that they are connected that when I realised they weren't, I decided to put right the majority who are not, as you seem to be, so gifted as to think this obvious. If (as I think a lot of us were, including myself) you're tired of the long absence of any theories to read, then why don't you write a good theory? I await your submission with interest - if you're as intelligent as you seem to think you are (I'm not saying you aren't) then it should be a good read, and I look forward to it.<br /><br />Narishma, you criticise me for being insult-provoking and not thought-provoking. I think the fact that you choose to insult me reveals more about you than it does about me or my theory.<br /><br />Lews TheRIN, you say that the other theories take the point out of mine. If you read what I actually wrote instead of what you think I wrote, you would find that those theories say the same thing as mine, and thus agree with and support my theory. If you managed to avoid the pitfall of thinking that the two quotes from LOC were about the same vision, well done you, but most of us didn't, and it was to the majority who did that my theory was addressed.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 16:33:04
subject: <b>Theories are connected</b>
body:
I don't see why the fact that min's second vision concerning moiraine (dead and gone woman = vision 1, failed moiraine vision = vision 2) cannot be connected to the first even if it does relate to moiraine marrying Thom or whatever rather than the TG. She thinks the vision has failed because Moiraine is dead and so can never come to pass. Seems to me this definitly links in with a vision mentioned a few pages earlier about a woman who was dead and gone<br /><br />But that's a side point, i reckon that the two extracts do refer to the same thing- when you're meeting a rebel leader worrying about vision relating to Moiraine marrying Thom seems a little out of place, worrying about a vision to do with the last battle would make more sense. Concerning the idea that Min can't be certain her viewing concerning Moiraine has failed because Rand hasn't been defeated yet (which if i read the theory right is what it's saying), min believes moraine is out of the picture for good, and therefore sees no way in which a viewing involving Moiraine in the future could come to pass. As far as Min is concerned any and all visions relating to Moiraine have failed because they can never come to pass, even if the events they are relating to haven't happened yet.<br /><br />As to why Morgase over Moiraine, it's all been said above as to who is more likely to be useful. This is a good theory and made me think, but a can't agree since your theory is based on interpretating the evidence in a way that i don't think holds up- keep up the good work though<br /><br />As for those of you who just rince theories without adding anything constructive- if the admins are wasting our time (in your opinion) by posting certain theories just think how much you're wasting everybody else's time with that drivel you write<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 17:04:34
subject:
<b>Correct me if I am wrong ( I am sure someone will <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )</b>

body:
I see no reason to assume that Min knows who the woman is who is dead and gone.  I am pretty sure that the evidence shows that Min saw the viewing around Rand.  (She thought to herself about it in the context that she was holding back this viewing of Rand.)  Furthermore, if she saw it was Moiraine or someone she thought was dead, wouldn't she mention that in her thoughts then!<br /><br />I could be wrong (it has happened).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 17:24:22
subject: <b>OK, E.M.</b>
body:
I'll put this in as first grade of words as I can manage, just so you understand what I mean. The quotes from your theory are &quot;What good to tell him [Rand] that he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&quot; and &quot;Moiraine was the only vision of hers that had ever failed.&quot; Because there is no plausible way for the first vision to fail, seeing as it says 'almost certainly' (making it so it doesn't fail if he wins) and seeing as Moiraine dying doesn't make that vision failed. Yet you suggest that because the second vision is of Moiraine and Thom's marriage, the first one can't be about Moiraine. What? You make no sense, EM. I'll make this clear for you: <br /><br />MOIRAINE <br /><br />IS     <br /><br />THE     <br /><br />WOMAN     <br /><br />WHO    <br /><br />IS       <br /><br />DEAD   <br /><br />AND    <br /><br />GONE.   <br /><br />IT     <br /><br />ISN'T     <br /><br />MORGASE.<br /><br />Clear enough for you? Also, ok, I was zoning out while reading your theory (you can't blame me for the fact that your theory was boring as heck) and I missed the fact that you did state that Moiraine and Thom was the failed vision. See? I can admit being wrong sometimes. I AM only human. But I STILL don't agree with your theory and it STILL makes no sense to me. Moiraine is the woman that Rand will almost certainly fail without. Min's failed vision was that Thom and Moiraine would marry. Why can't they both be true, EM? I see no contradictions that makes one impossible because the other is true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 17:27:22
subject: <b>Ha Ha...</b>
body:
You were 'zoning out' Lews TheRIN? Ha ha. Actually, I was too... (yawn)... that was one of the most boring theories I've ever read through. You make sense, unlike EM's theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 17:52:35
subject: <b>The Woman is Moiraine</b>
body:
This is my first post, and I was hoping to find a new theory I agreed with, but I just gotta vote no on this one.  lordgaebril already made all the relevent rebuttals, so I'll just say ditto. <br />And, add that the fact that the vision of Moiraine helping Rand in some way in TG hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it's unreasonable that Min would assume it was as good as failed.  She thinks the woman is dead, why would she think there was any way she was coming back?


created: 2002-06-20 18:40:36
subject: <b>Literal Meanings</b>
body:
Maybe...just maybe it means exactly what it says!!! Morgase is obviously NOT DEAD..hhhhmmm...can't be her.  Moiraine? Maybe...we cant be for sure yet, though...although I tend to lean that way. I don't think it could smack you in the face any harder.<br />


created: 2002-06-20 18:44:34
subject: <b>Further Critique of the Theory</b>
body:
Two references (one specific reference, and one general) to a woman who had been an important part of one or more of Min's viewing and who she consideres &quot;dead and gone&quot; within 3 pages of text constitutes rather strong evidence that the two are related.<br /><br />My $0.02<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 19:44:22
subject: <b>EM you made a good point</b>
body:
Personally I disagree, but you are making a valid point when you say that the statements Min makes are separate. We are assuming that one refers to the other (at least I was the first time I read it), but there is no certainty of this fact. Good point and good thoughts. I don't think that you should be slammed for bringing this up. You may be right, although it seems more likely that it will be Moiraine who will help by providing Rand with some information that only she has.<br /><br />He who refuses to hear a shout will strain to hear a whisper<br /><br />A book is a mirror: when a monkey looks in no apostle can look out<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda


created: 2002-06-20 22:40:49
subject: <b>While I personally believe the two quotes to be connected...</b>
body:
... and Moiraine the woman who is dead and gone, why do we assume that Min knew who that woman was? She doesn't always know everything about what she sees, so technically she COULD be talking about Morgase, although that makes no sense at all: Morgase is not dead.<br /><br />Then again, I do not believe that Moiraine is dead, either.<br /><br />This is an absolutley WILD and UNPROVEN thought (just so I don't get attacked for mentioning it), but what about Rand's mother? Remember how seeing her image in tEotW made Rand go through a flood of emotions? Considering Cadsuane has to teach Rand how to laugh and cry again, he might melt at the sight of his ma. Pair that with Ishmael telling LTT that the DO can bring Ilyena back... ah hel|, I'm just rambling now. That doesn't explain how Cadsuane would teach that lesson to the Asha'man, either.<br /><br />Please disregard the above paragraph as rambling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 23:17:19
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
I forgot to log off when my brother went online, and he forgot to switch to HIS user name (Unfriendly Ashaman) when he submitted his blackboard post... he sent mine in instead. Makes it look like I have a split personality, doesn't it? Oh well. I'll kill him later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 23:22:25
subject: <b>I agree yet not</b>
body:
I believe it will not me Moiraine who helps him, I think it will be Liah, the maiden who was left in Shadar Logoth.  She distracted Sammael so that he would die.  Everybody believed her to be dead, so that is what I think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 23:28:16
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
this is a well thought out and well written theory. i don't agree with the morgase part, but i do think that you have a good point about the two seperate viewings. it makes me tend to think that moraine is not the long dead woman.<br /><br />many people posting comments refuting your theory seem to have not read it or are so close minded that they refuse to listen to your logic or offer any of their own. please don't post comments if you have not read the theory or have nothing useful to say. <br /><br />&quot;MOIRAINE IS THE WOMAN WHO IS DEAD AND GONE. IT ISN'T MORGASE.&quot;<br /><br />this really doesn't help anyone understand anything about the anti-theory argument. <br /><br />though RJ writes at a level accessible many younger people, i wish people could show a little more maturity around here.<br /><br />this kinda of theory is exactly what i wanted to read when i browse the theory section. thank you for finally writing something worth reading.


created: 2002-06-20 23:44:06
subject: <b>Close-minded?</b>
body:
No, I'm not close-minded... this theory simply doesn't make sense. There's nothing that makes Min's two visions contradict one another. While it COULD be Morgase, (cough out a lung) what need could Rand POSSIBLY have for Morgase? Is she supposed to do what her daughter seems to be taking care of already (uniting Andor?) <br /><br />Moiraine, on the other hand, is a channeler, a renowned player of Daes Dae'mar, and the person who set Rand on his path to where he is right now. Moiraine makes a huge difference, unlike Morgase, so the 'he would almost certainly fail without a woman that was dead and gone' thing fits Moiraine far better than Morgase. And because the failed vision is almost certainly Thom and Moiraine's marriage, THIS THEORY HAS NO SUBSTANCE.<br /><br />So no, I'm not close-minded to theories, yao, I'm close-minded to bullcrap.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 00:00:51
subject: <b>One question</b>
body:
I guess I have my timeline mixed up but I thought that Min had those two viewings BEFORE Morgase came up missing and was presumed dead.... am I wrong in this?  If so can I get some specifics or where to find these two events if anyone knows?  Thanks


created: 2002-06-21 00:09:22
subject: <b>liah</b>
body:
Sorry chum but it wont be liah. She got balefired. I think that this was a well thought out theory. I think that morgase is definently a possibiltiy. I personally still believe it to be Moirane though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">taintedman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> king of my own little universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> flamer of stupid posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 00:25:36
subject: <b>close minded. again.</b>
body:
you reject the theory based purely on the assumption that morgase must be the woman. in fact, the theory is not about morgase and merely suggested that morgase is the woman. i urge you to read the theory more thoroughly. if you refuse to read the theory, please look at the title for a brief idea of what the theory is about.


created: 2002-06-21 00:55:30
subject: <b>eeps.</b>
body:
I want to agree with the theory, just to annoy theRIN <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> , but I'm firmly convinced that Moiraine is the woman Rand needs.<br />Still, it is an interesting theory.  Are there any other women it could be, besides Morgase?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> *snicker, snicker*<br />Part-Time Lurker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Pagans; into sex, death, and religion, in an interesting late night tv sort of way.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 01:18:11
subject: <b>hum..</b>
body:
i always thought it was cadsuane... but everyone else seems to think it's moraine... so i'm on the fence right now.


created: 2002-06-21 01:23:14
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
nothing like a good pissing contest to heat up the theory board <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, I hold with those think the dead and gone person do be Moiraine. Aes Sedai cannot lie, Moiraine wasn't married, so how could she know the face of her husband better then a woman in love? <br /><br />I guess we could go into a heated discussion of &quot;is Moiraine really bound&quot;!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 02:19:52
subject: <b>About Min and her viewings</b>
body:
OK, it is inheritantly possible that the women Min speaks of being dead yet needed is Morgase. About as possible as me winning Lotto South when the jackpots over 300 million dollars AFTER taxes. How is this feat possible? Well, the said viewing could not have been of Morgase but of Rand which you satisfy the argument that Min never met/saw/was ever within a mile of Morgase. That over with, when Min says something that strong that she actually knows it, it always comes true, and it IS true. Morgase is not dead Moirane, TECHNICALLY is. (So is Brigitte so ill give her like 1:50 odds of being subject of said viewing). How can she technically be dead? Warder bond severed- she is no longer of that world and thus must be dead. Therefore, it has to be Moirance or Cyndane (a fanciful theory, she now lives only to kill him, she the jealous type). <br /><br />A quick side note: Cyndane is not as powerful and Lanfear was. The difference, however, is like climbing up Mt. Everest and then blowing the snow off the top foot of the peak and saying look! its smaller! Graendal said that she hardly ever felt anyone stronger than herself, but Cyndane was. This was in a chapter in a book on a page somewhere. Therefore Cyndane is still uber-cool and can take you to the cleaners before you can scream the opening line of the Snakes and Foxes game (provided you can remember it).<br /><br />It is probably Moirane for several reasons. 1. Shes dead. 2. Everyone thought Moirane was fun and 3. Jordan seldom kills off main good guys can you name ANY besides her? oh, and 4. because i want it to be so. SO THERE!!<br /><br />Its not bloody Morgase and I have serious doubts about her ability to survive through the next few books because I believe her presence anywhere would hamper the main characters, especially Elaine, which would be the first place she'd go. But thats another ramble about something speculative and ill leave it alone.<br /><br /><br />So, any worthwhile theorys out there?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 02:30:08
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
I like this theory.  It does make me sense at least to me.  I think when I read the book the first few times I just assumed it was Moiraine, but Morgase seems to be good idea too.


created: 2002-06-21 02:48:02
subject: <b>yao...</b>
body:
You are SUCH a ding-a-ling (yes, I use that word because childish words piss people off more than vulgar words.) My entire dispute was over the fact that the theory was wrong IN THE POINT OF IT'S NAME. Here, I'll put this in the same clear format:<br /><br />MOIRAINE<br /><br />IS<br /><br />THE<br /><br />WOMAN<br /><br />WHO<br /><br />IS<br /><br />DEAD<br /><br />AND<br /><br />GONE<br /><br />See, you ding-dong head? I paid CLOSE attention to the title... that was the easiest thing for me to pay attention to, seeing as the theory was exactly what I needed to lull me into a nice long nap. I disagree with this theory. What about that is so hard for you to understand? Do you think there's a deeper meaning hiding behind my words, Sherlock? Investigate away, but there's nothing to find. I disagree with this theory. There's no need to further press the matter, yao. I see no reason for you to fight with me over my opinion, unless you're EM in disguise and pissed off cuz I disagree w/ your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 04:27:29
subject: <b>Once again, and a new thought.</b>
body:
Once again: Why do we assume that Min knew who the woman was? It is only because we assume (and you KNNOW what happens when ewe do that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) that Min recognised her as the woman who was dead and gone that we connect the two theories. We just don't know for sure if she even knew who that woman was!<br /><br />New thought: Does Min not see everything that is exactly how it is? By that I mean; Morgase is not dead (and neither is Moiraine, as far as I am concerned), so why would she be connected with a viewing of a woman who is dead and gone?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 04:32:49
subject: <b>GG...</b>
body:
you make an interesting point. still, i'm pretty sold on the idea of Min knowing it was Moiraine... yet i think i can add to your point. Moiraine knew she would die and accepted it... if Min had had a viewing of that and told Moiraine, she probably wouldn't have been as willing to take on Lanfear, knowing that the DO would win if she died.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 08:34:43
subject: <b>heh</b>
body:
&quot;This was in a chapter in a book on a page somewhere.&quot;<br /><br />lmao<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 10:45:46
subject: <b>What Min knows</b>
body:
As far as Min knows, Morgase is dead. As far as Min knows Moraine is dead. As far as I'm concerned, neither of them are dead. Does this mean that she can have a vision which reflects truth, or does it merely need to reflect reality as she knows it?<br /><br />If it is just according to how she views reality, than either Morgase or Moraine could be possible. If not, neither one are. Unless Moraine is dead and the DO decides to bring her back. <br /><br />....Or maybe Rand will learn how to do that and became as strong as the Dark One, and that's why this is so important to him succeding. This enormous use of his power will enable him to become omnipotent and defeat the forces of evil, and he will become the creator.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 11:10:06
subject: <b>How about this apple</b>
body:
Now My thought on this matter is that it could be Morgase.  In that her reappearance would heal the wounds in the Ruling house of Andor because Gaiwan would see that Rand had not killed his mother, also Elaida had a fortelling that it was the key to victory in TG.  Take this for what its worth but don't kill me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-21 11:26:29
subject: <b>okay... therin</b>
body:
perhaps i should clarify myself. i am not trying to piss you off as you seem to be wanting to do to me. i don't understand why you must shoot down other people's ideas when they may have a valid point. i do not completely agree with your take on the theory, but i have read the theories you made vague reference to and can see how moiraine could be the woman. however, i refuse to blindly accept these as yet unproven theories to completely disprove Eyeless Myrddraal's theory. regardless, this seems to have degenerated into mere name calling, which i don't think this comments section is for.<br />


created: 2002-06-21 12:12:01
subject: <b>Okay...a few points...</b>
body:
First off--for everyone who keeps saying that Morgase won't work b/c she's not actually dead: you also have no right to say that Moiraine is ever coming back. Think about it. Moiraine is not really dead either. She's trapped in the Tower of Ghenjei. Lan's Warder bond was broken either by Moiraine's stilling or by something having to do with crossing dimensions. We have never seen anyone else with a warder bond go through any of the doorway or portal ter'angreal. How do we know this doesn't automatically snap a bond? I'm not saying I believe it does...only that we don't know everything about the series, and there are still a wide variety of wildcards Jordan could pull to explain everything here.<br /><br />Now...Morgase returning, I believe, would definately help Rand to succeed. It would make Gawyn stop hating Rand. Why is this important? Well, say Elayne is injured, or disappears somewhere. Or, even, say Egwene is injured or killed. Now, let's say that Gawyn believes Rand did it--which, in Elayne's case, is entirely possible. So. If Morgase is &quot;dead&quot;, and one of the other women Gawyn can't live without is dead, and he thinks Rand did it, who do you think he'll go after? Gawyn could easily kill Rand, if he managed to surprise him. And if Rand were dead, then he would fail in Tarmon Gai'don, wouldn't he? But--if Morgase came back and showed she wasn't dead, Gawyn might not be so angry, and even if something were to happen to Egwene or Elayne, I doubt he would go after Rand. Also, there are the Whitecloaks and Galad that this could effect. But anything else I say on this is speculation, and I'd rather not get into that.<br /><br />Hmm...one last point. I'm not sure how many people are assuming this, but Min's vision wasn't that Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone. She didn't see the dead and gone part in her vision. She saw an actual woman, and that Rand would almost certain fail without this woman--and saw it in a viewing centered on Rand. We don't see her actually having the viewing, only talking about it. So the person actually being dead or not really holds no sway on the situation, only whether Min thinks they're dead. We still have no idea who this person is. Personally, I'm undecided, and I think the possiblities are wider than most people believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:31:20
subject: <b>Kids.......</b>
body:
The two are connected.  Moraine is the dead and gone.  Assumed dead! and definatley gone! She will return and then it will make sense to you Eyeless Mydrall.  Moraine will return and Rand will succeed and everybody will be happy.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:59:55
subject: <b>bah!</b>
body:
Has anyone bothered to consider that we do not have a description of the actual viewing? No word for word of what she saw and when she saw it? Just Min's thoughts  refering back to the viewing?  So we have no idea if the viewing took place after the alleged death or not.  We don't know if it was a viewing of the person Min now believes to be dead that obviously took place before her disappearance, or a viewing of Rand in which the person being refered to appeared.  However can anyone give me one example of a Min viewing in which she saw a person she was able to identify, <i>who wasn't present when she made the viewing?</i>  I don't think you can.  Remember when she saw the three women around Rand, one of whom was herself, she didn't know who the other two were!  She didn't know one was Elayne until they met.  And she didn't know anything at all about Avi except that she had a temper.  She has never met Morgase.   the only prominent woman character that we know Min has viewed that is presumed dead is Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 15:19:45
subject: <b>Great point, damookster!</b>
body:
That is a GREAT point! How could she have known who that dead and gone woman was unless she seen the viewing around them? She couldn't have. So, that takes out Moiraine (Min did not see her again before she &quot;died&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> AND Morgase (They never met). From that point, we can conclude that Min's viewing of a woman dead and gone originated around Rand, not the woman herself. Since we now know this, the woman could be anybody that Rand knows and is dead. For me, that excludes Morgase for sure, and Moiraine becausae, as mentioned above, she technically is not dead, just trapped.<br /><br />Memnoch Sedai: Good point about Lan feeling the bond disconnect, but that would mean that something drastic would have happened to Moiraine after her tumble into the doorway. After all, Lan would have known the feeling of Moiraine dissapearing from the Tear doorway. Something else must have happened with the Finns........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 15:34:33
subject: <b>close but not quite.....</b>
body:
You are right GG, it does eliminate Morgase...but it does not eliminate Moiraine because as I said, we don't know when the viewing took place.  She could have been thinking of a viewing she made a year before, or even earlier, we have no idea.  It could have been the first time she saw Moiraine and Rand together....or maybe when she saw all three t'avern together with Moiraine.  We don't have enough facts to make that determination.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 16:10:09
subject: <b>Snapping the Bond</b>
body:
Going through the portal would not snap the bond - Moiraine already went through the other portal to get her answers and Lan suffered no ill effects from that.<br /><br />Also, as stated earlier, we do not know that Min's vision said that a woman dead and gone was necessary. More likely, the vision said that a woman was necessary and the Min believes that that woman is dead and gone. Personally, I really like the idea of it being Birgitte (I'd never really thought of her before, just assumed it was Moiraine).<br /><br />Thanks, EM for a thought-provoking theory. And, some of the rest of you, grow up...<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 17:09:36
subject: <b>Moriaine Death Dimension Warder Bonds and stuff</b>
body:
Ok one of you said that Moiranine going through the portal wouldnt have snapped the Warder Bond because she did it before in Tear. Well this is a valid point and there could be several explanations. One is that when she went through this doorway it was a completely different dimension that did snap bond. Or perhaps she had iron or an accordian on her or something that made the people within mad enough to snap her bond, or something happened when she went in. Anyway, she went in, the Bond snapped, but she must be alive. The only way for her to live is for her to be alive in the other dimension, but something snapped her bond. One other possibility is stilling. Lanfear might have stilled her, as Rand demonstrated at Dumai's Wells it doesnt take very long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 17:56:20
subject: <b>snapping the bond</b>
body:
I must have missed something.  I was under the impression that Lan's warder bond was passed to Myrelle.


created: 2002-06-21 19:02:31
subject: <b>It's possible that what...</b>
body:
snapped the bond was the destruction of the gate. I have submitted a theory about this though I am beginning to doubt that it will ever show up, but I will hold off on these comments for a little while longer.  As for Min's viewing I am trying to decide if she saw a woman or just some shapes. Remember Min said that sometimes she saw things and the words just came to her. So the way I see it is there are two possibilities. 1) she saw the woman (whom ever she is) and when the viewing took place she thought that this person was dead (or she could have been alive at the time it makes no difference) , and still thinks that they are dead. 2) She saw some colors and shapes or whatever and words came to her that said &quot;Rand would fail without a woman who is dead and gone.&quot; Personally the first possibility makes much more sense but I have no real reason beyond my own rational to discount the latter.  So if it is the first, then I have to assume that it would be Moiraine, or Lanfear, or maybe Birgitte. If it is the second it could be Morgase or someone else. Remember we don't know what Min's viewing was we only have her interpretation about it. The viewing could have been shapes and such with the words Rand will fail without the current queen of Andor, or something of the like. <br /><br />A book is a mirror when a monkey looks in no apostle can look out<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda


created: 2002-06-21 20:47:54
subject: <b>Sparked a thought....</b>
body:
Comments here sparked a thought.  IF Moraine as I have suspected knew before hand how her battle with Lanfear would end, is it possible that she took with her all the elements needed to beat the Foxes?  Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Moraine and Lanfear go through the door that leads to the foxes?  If so and she knew ahead of time is it not possible that she brought with her the things needed to cheat the foxes.  As we've seen with Mat the foxes grant wishes but they demand a price.  If you have the tools to beat the foxes can you recieve your wishes and cheat them out of there price?  If so then as Mat had in his visit a third wish to return to the Randland.  Release the bond before she went through the door?  And know working behind the scenes to arrive at the perfect time to tip the scales in Rands favor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 21:17:37
subject: <b>My 2 cents worth</b>
body:
Or maybe 1 cent  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Candidates:<br /><br />Moiraine<br />Birgitte<br />Lanfear <br />Ileyna Therin<br />Morgase<br /><br />But perhaps its a women who ain't dead yet.<br />There's still 4 books to go.<br /><br />The final-death of Lews Therin suggests the Rand's Last Battle will not be just on a physical level, but a mental-soul level as well.<br /><br />It could be that Min didn't understand this and is thinking just in a physical way. Which made her think this was a hopeless battle.<br /><br />Apologies if this has been said before. But I couldn't be bothered reading 56 comments  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-21 21:51:42
subject: <b>Um, GG...</b>
body:
She probably saw the vision around RAND's head, so it could be anyone who Min thinks/knows is dead and gone... but I still think it's Moiraine. Heck, does Min know what Morgase looks like? Or Kari al'Thor? Or, as Talmanes suggested, ILYENA THERIN?! She does, however, know what Moiraine looks like... but that's not relevant if she didn't see the woman's face, just that she was dead and gone. (throws hands up in the air)<br /><br />Whatever. This is a pretty confusing post, so I'll do my best to clear it up with this magic abbreviation: RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 13:09:42
subject: <b>Re: Moraine's Bond</b>
body:
Moraine had done her homework before she disappeared. She tols Rand that this (her death) was the best of the three possible outcomes, the other two being his death, and his conversion to the dark side.<br /><br />I think, knowing what was going to happen, she was prepared to swith her bond with Lan to Myrelle as soon as she recognized events that had been fortold to her starting to happen. I say this becaus, yes her bond was swithced, but no, she is not dead, just in another dimension.<br /><br />Columbo suggested that perhaps, being educated to her fate, that she may have taken the necessary supplies needed for her to defeat the Finns. BUt I must contend that the people who are truly knowledgable about what it takes to defeat them are Brigette and Mat. Mor got her knowledge from the Finn, and surely they would not say to her: &quot;Oh, ya, by the way, you need to bring iron and music so you can kick butt on the other Finns.&quot;<br /><br />Furthermore, she still needs to wait for Thom, the stud-meister who is going to marry her and become her warder, to resce her. If she had the keys to the Finns' defeat, why hasn't she come back yet.<br /><br />Peace, Out, all you wolfbrothers and sisters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 18:35:15
subject: <b>Several comments</b>
body:
Firstly, I would like to thank you, Yao, for sticking up for me so kindly against the childish name-calling of Lews TheRIN while I was away the past two days.<br /><br />Secondly, Lews TheRIN. I will put this in <i>Primary School</i> words for you - you have not read my theory properly. If you care at all about logical discussion (and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't - that's your choice - but if you don't then I'm a bit bemused as to why you're posting here at all) then I would implore you to go back to my theory, take a careful note as to what I say in it, and more importantly, what I do <i>not</i> say, and then come back here and discuss it without name-calling or unsubstantiated comments. I don't mind you or anyone else showing me that I am wrong, so long as you can <i>demonstrate</i> that I am. That way, I learn something and am grateful. I don't know if you're still reading this thread, but if you are I would like to invite you to discuss your opinions properly, and will forget all about the things you said above - everyone makes mistakes, myself by no means excluded. I do not ask for an apology by any means - that would be extremely rude of me. Instead, I offer a sort of truce, and apologise for anything I might have said to offend you. By the way, Yao is not me in disguise, although in your place I would almost certainly think so too.<br /><br />Thirdly, I couldn't help noticing that Randwashere said Moiraine got her knowledge from the Finns. Actually, she got it from the ring <i>ter'angreal</i> in Rhuidean. Just a minor inaccuracy, but since it is important to your comment I thought I ought to point it out.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 08:53:28
subject: <b>just one thing</b>
body:
I like your theory and reasoning, and I aggree that the two viewings are unrelated, but it still doesn't mean that the woman who is dead and gone can't be moraine. <br /><br />I think the vision that failed would be one about her in the future, like marrying thom or whatever, was the one that failed. <br /><br />When she first had the viewing about the woman who was dead and gone, I'm sure moraine was still alive, she was just seeing a future event. Even if she was dead at the time, I still get the impression that Min had no idea who that woman was, which means it wouldn't be the one that failed, but it wouldn't make it impossible that it was moraine anyway. All I can say is, that quote is too vauge to be conclusive, but I still think moraine is the most likely person who is dead and burried.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 20:34:37
subject: <b>Kari?</b>
body:
Just another woman who everyone thinks is dead and gone to add to the list.  Sure she has only been even thought of like 7 times in the whole WoT books but with what little I know about her... it makes me think... Why is she the only woman with light hair and light eyes that isn't a main character (or untill Aeil come into the picture)... we don't know how she died (as far as I know)... Kair is one of the first mymsteryies that no one ever thought about trying to figure out... I plan on posting some sort of Theory about Kari ... I just have to get a better one then... why isn't she almost never talked about.


created: 2002-06-23 22:46:24
subject: <b>Min's Viewing</b>
body:
Just a small addition: Min saw a man in white around Berelain but didn't recognise Galad or Perrin. Therefore her vision of the 'dead women' may not have shown a face leaving this theory wide open.<br /><br />I still hold to the fact that the woman may actually be someones soul and 'Alivia's helping of Rand to die' suggest a soul level to the Last Battle.<br /><br />Call me soppy but I would like Ileyna to call Lews Therin to the other side. Yes, big girls blouse I know  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-06-24 02:55:41
subject: <b>E.M....</b>
body:
I've read your theory more times than I would have liked to, and I still disagree with it. Hopefully that clears it up for you. This is the LAST time I'm posting in this blackboard, unless yao wants to dis me again, in which case I will resort to insulting rather than name-calling. I am NOT a primary student, EM. I read your theory, and I disagree with it. No amount of your arguing could change my opinion. Who's wrong, who's right? No way of knowing that until RJ puts the pen to paper. So please, because I am tired of arguing and I very much dislike being provoked into name-calling (I have an admittedly short fuse, and when people piss me off, I have to blow off some steam), drop the subject. I've already stated my arguments, and dispite what you and yao think, they make sense. The two quotes included in your theory don't contradict one another, which means that the quote in question not only COULD be about Moiraine, but most likely is. I disagree with your theory. Enough said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 08:07:55
subject: <b>Kari al'Thor</b>
body:
I agree with Tabula Rasa.<br /><br />It fits in with my theory I just submitted on Kari and Tam.<br />It goes somewhat like this...<br /><br />Why did a Blade master and an Illianer gaurd give it all up to become a sheepherder? Ba'alzamon in Rand's dream mentions that Tam &amp; Kari were acting on the White Towers Instructions.<br />So My guess is that Kari is an Aes Sedai. And she is not dead cause Tam would have died as well.<br />Tam was her warder and she WILL BE BACK.<br /><br />Read my theory when it is posted for more details on this.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 08:48:15
subject: <b>Ha ha...</b>
body:
That's assuming it <i>does</i> get posted...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 16:37:49
subject: <b>uuuhhhh, guys?</b>
body:
i think that it is lanfear myself even though i know jordan is gonna screw me and make it moraine. i DONT think its morgase because then elayne would be redundant. BUT. three or four of the first 15 posts said that it CANT be morgase because min never was around her to have a viewing. <br /><br />WHY COULDNT IT HAVE BEEN A VIEWING SHE HAD WHILE LOOKING AT RAND? <br /><br />it would be very signficant for him and in all possibility, she probably wouldnt have seen it around anyone BUT rand.<br /><br />that would mean that she had a veiwing aboiut a woman dying and then comming back to life. im sure she would have warned moraine...but then again, since she is so nonchalant about it maybe she DID see around lanfear and then disregarded it, but that isnt min at all...


created: 2002-06-24 18:57:21
subject: <b>What about a Forsaken?</b>
body:
Lanfear is believed to be dead, but could have been ressurected by the Dark Lord in all his might, as Cyndane. Lanfear's love for Lewis Therin might have been transfered over with all her knowledge to Cyndane and in the Last Battle Lanfear could change her allegiance after seeing the 'good' forces beating the 'bad' forces. Maybe her love will help her change allegiance and she will kill the Dark Lord to try and have the 'good' forgive her sins. Yes a lot of if's and maybe's, but call me crazy it could happen. This is RJ after all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-24 19:11:00
subject: <b>Kari al'Thor</b>
body:
P Flyod might be right.<br />My theory might never get posted.<br />So here is why I think it is Kari al'Thor<br /><br />I kept thinking why would someone, a blade master an Illianer gaurd, want to move to Two Rivers. And he was obviously in the Aiel war or he would not have been on the slopes of Dragonmount on that fateful day. Why did he then decide to become a sheepherder and a tabac faramer? There has to be more to it! He obviously knows the truth about Rand. He found Rand!!!! Kari al'Thor is an Aes Sedai and Tam her warder<br /><br />It would certainly fit in with what Ba'alzamon told Rand in Chapter 14 - The Stag and the Lion (page 204)<br />'Your father was chosen by the White Tower, like a stalion roped in and led to his business.Your mother was no more than a brood mare to their plans.'<br /><br />He could have been lying... but I doubt it. Everything else he said seemed true. And we know is true now.<br /><br />Also in Chapter 5 - Winternight Tam drags a chest from under the bed and pulls out the blade master sword. He has a lot more in that chest. Rand also mentioned that it had never been moved before. Later on in his fever he talks about how he found Rand by the side of his mother and how the cloak she had put on him before she died had blown away in the wind. He would not have left without proof of Rand's past. A piece of jewellery, her spear or something that ties Rand, gives us the proof we need o tie our theories together.<br /><br />And if we read the theory that Green Gaidin suggested...<br /><br />Lan Knows Tam<br />Category: Other Dragonfriend Theories <br />Submitted by: Green Gaidin <br />Posted on: 8/3/2001 8:31:11 AM<br />BlackboardComments: 51 <br />90%      10%      (630 Votes) <br /><br />Maybe we can see Tam as being a warder to Kari of the Green Ajah. They are known as the Battle Ajah so they would have definitly been at the Aiel War. Where Rand was found.<br />As her warder he would not have survived her death. So she is alive. She is walking in Randland now.<br /><br />She is either one of the Aes Sedia already introduced to us or yet to come. But I an conviced she is &quot;A woman dead and gone&quot;. Min woud have definitely seen a viewing of her arround Rand. He keeps thinking of them.<br /><br />Tigrane, Rand's mother left to become Aiel cause an Aes Sedia told her to. The white Tower and or a few of the Aes Sedia know more than they are letting on.<br /><br />When I get to the point where I think I have her name I will let you on the secret.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> waits for Tarmon Gai'don<br />'We will vanquish the Dark One'<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 01:03:53
subject: <b>lol! Didn't I sugggest Kari, like, 50 posts ago?</b>
body:
No worries, I'm just glad it's getting discussed. <br /><br />I dont think it CAN be Morgase: Min never seen/met her, so she COULDNT have recognised her face enough to make that statement (she wouldnt have known it was her since she had never met her).<br /><br />That 'Tam knows Lan' Theory is my favorite (of my originals). They both rock, and those 'almost-connections' were great!<br /><br />On the subject of Tam &amp; Kari: If she WAS an AS, and Tam her Warder, we have to ask this VERY important question: Does a Warder lose his Warder abilities once an AS dies/is stilled? If so, then we have to look for another explination as to how Tam knew the Shadowspawn were in the TR (takes out sword, locks door, etc.). As well, my first thought after realising that Tam might have sensed the Trolocs was this: What do they say is the best way to keep a stilled woman alive? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Living her life out on a farm with a new Family. Strangley enough, I dont remember reading HOW she died, but Rand doesnt remember her much except for her smile. <br /><br />Another question(s) on the subject: When exactly did Kari bond Tam (If indeed she did)? He WAS second in command to the Companions. That is Fact. Why would they leave the WT? Were they under orders to protect the Child (Rand)? If so, who would have known who/what he was? Who gave such an order? I was under the impression that ONLY Tam and Kari knew what he was (how many babies are born on Dragonmount? With Tam's telling of the TRUE War of Power story in the new prologue in From the Two Rivers, I assume he knew about the Dragon being born again on Dragonmount). If someone else knew, who? Not Gitara Moreso(sp?). She died seconds after Rand's birth. Moiraine and Siuan have been searching for the last 20 years, as have the BA and DFs.<br /><br />Man, that's alot of questions! DISCUSS AWAY!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 10:13:39
subject: <b>The Catch with Moiraine...</b>
body:
...is that she might not be dead.<br /><br />several points:<br /><br />1. When she last spoke with Tom, she said, &quot;I WILL see you again (emphasis actually present)&quot;.  There is no way to prevaricate around the Three Oaths with that. That's as definitive a statement as an Aes Sedai can make.  Thus far, she hasn't.<br /><br />2. We can assume pretty strongly that Cyndane/Lanfear died -- but we don't know how or why. The DO certainly isn't the forgiving sort.  He could've killed her as punishment.  Or Lanfear could've been killed by the Finns.  I'm pretty sure she was be-decked with *angreal -- and Moiraine wasn't.  That, or just her general behavior, may have violated something.<br /><br />3. People have made assumptions that Moiraine is dead, based on things such as her bond with Lan was severed, Lanfear died, etc. But those are only guesses. The biggest basis for the assumption is that Min says &quot;a woman dead and gone&quot; and a lot of people kick onto Moiraine.<br /><br />But...let's consider a few things.  We KNOW Min's viewings are correct.  That doesn't necessarily mean that MIN is always correct.  I submit that it's MUCH more likely that Min had a viewing, interpreted it via erroneous information she had (i.e., Moiraine being 'dead'), and thus has concluded that it's the only vision that's been wrong. <br /><br />Since there's pretty much no reason to believe that one vision out of all the ones she's seen is wrong, we can assume Min herself is wrong in her interpretation.  While this doesn't make a case for Moiraine, it opens up the speculation.


created: 2002-06-25 15:18:27
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
&quot;1. When she last spoke with Tom, she said, &quot;I WILL see you again (emphasis actually present)&quot;. There is no way to prevaricate around the Three Oaths with that. That's as definitive a statement as an Aes Sedai can make. Thus far, she hasn't.&quot;<br /><br />At this point, she has not seen her and Lanfear's duel in the cards. She sees that in the rhuidean rings. (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) Remember how Contanza beat the lie detector? &quot;If you believe it's true, it isn't a lie.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;2. We can assume pretty strongly that Cyndane/Lanfear died -- but we don't know how or why. The DO certainly isn't the forgiving sort. He could've killed her as punishment. Or Lanfear could've been killed by the Finns. I'm pretty sure she was be-decked with *angreal -- and Moiraine wasn't. That, or just her general behavior, may have violated something.&quot;<br /><br />I can't agree or disagree with you here. On one hand, we know that questions linked to the shadow are extremley dangerous in finnland (via Moiraine), so one of the Forsaken... well, you get the point. Next, Cyndane says that she was stronger before GOING TO SEE THE FINNS. Not stronger before the DO killed her and gave her a new body. Hence we know that her strength was sapped due to her deal with the Finns. In all likleyhood it was the price she paid for her gifts (what else could it be?). I'm guessing that Lanfear was killed IN finnland somehow AFTER getting her strength sapped. Otherwise she would be as strong as she was before; the Power of the Channeler is linked directly to the soul. We know this because Aran'gar channels the Saidin. <br /><br />&quot;But...let's consider a few things. We KNOW Min's viewings are correct. That doesn't necessarily mean that MIN is always correct. I submit that it's MUCH more likely that Min had a viewing, interpreted it via erroneous information she had (i.e., Moiraine being 'dead'), and thus has concluded that it's the only vision that's been wrong. &quot;<br /><br />I agree 100% (!!!!!!!!). I've been talking about it with Columbo on the subject and we came up with Min having the viewing around Rand circa tGH/tDR. That way, she considers Moiraine dead. We agree?!?!?!?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 15:31:52
subject: <b>Shadow Killer</b>
body:
It would certainly fit in with what Ba'alzamon told Rand in Chapter 14 - The Stag and the Lion (page 204)<br />'Your father was chosen by the White Tower, like a stalion roped in and led to his business.Your mother was no more than a brood mare to their plans.'<br /><br />This quote refers to Janduin and Tigraine, NOT Kari and Tam Al'Thor.  Tigraine was sent by the Tower to the Waste, where she met Janduin, conceived Rand, and died giving birth on Dragonmount.  Janduin was slain in the Blight by Luc/Isam, following Tigraine's death.<br /><br />Your theory could be interesting, but this is a bad supporting quote.


created: 2002-06-25 17:47:15
subject: <b>Time to step in</b>
body:
First of all the reason Tam returned to the two rivers is because its his home.  You all forget that he left the two rivers when he was young and then returned with a wife and baby.<br /><br />Second GG Tam might have been cautious the evening in question because Rand, Mat and Perrin had all seen a Fade.  They described the Fade and I believe Tam quessed at what it was from the description.<br /><br />Third  Who in the Tower set it up?  Tam himself in a fever dream speaks of stumbling onto Rand and taking him to his wife.  They then go home with a baby.  Remeber Tam found Rand in his moms dead arms.<br /><br />Fourth Ishy was lying to Rand about the tower and the parents that raised him.<br /><br />Fifth if the White Tower had knowledge then why do we see ignorance.  Why would Moraine and Suin work together for 20yrs to find him?  The White tower knew of his birth but nothing after that.<br /><br /><br />P.S. THOM KILLED GALAD'S DAD. THOM KILLED MORGASES HUSBAND.  COLUMBO IS FULL OF SURPRISES.  JUST ADD IT TO THE LIST OF UNTOUCHABLES THOM HAS KILLED.  WHO MENTIONED HE COULDN'T BE A WARDER?  THOSE THAT DID NEED TO GO BACK TO GRADE 3 AND WORK ON COMPREHENSION.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 18:39:05
subject: <b>Something else to toss in...</b>
body:
...for Columbo.  And this isn't at all antagonistic, but if he hasn't thought of it yet, he's very close to it.<br /><br />There's a distinct -- I'm not sure how strong, but certainly a distinct possibility that Thom is Elayne's father. <br /><br />I've been thinking of submitting this as a theory, but haven't bothered to yet.  Partly 'cuz I think most people would say &quot;Well, Duuuuh!&quot;<br /><br />Why do I think so?   Thom left Andor when Elayne was just a toddler. Morgase was in a loveless marriage (or, as I believe Moiraine said, a marriage where her husband was plotting to kill her.  That would be 'loveless' in my book).  Thom was, as described, young and handsome and quite full of himself (with some vindication).  He was around, then. <br /><br />In TSR, Elayne (esp. when she's drunk, i.e. acting childish) REALLY treats Thom like a father figure -- complete with a bit of flirtation with him, and if THAT isn't ol' RJ doing the Andromeda Complex....  Thom certainly treats her like a daughter.<br /><br />This would make all kinds of delicious tie-ins...Thom, who's pretty dedicated to Rand, would then be his father-in-law.  And, of course, there's the whole Galad development (Galad's uncle killed his father, tho' there's a few steps between them).<br /><br />Oh, and for more irons in the fire...anybody else wonder if Galad can channel?  Why not? His family is FILLED with powerful channelers.  He's always incredibly calm...the Void?<br /><br />Okay, enough messin' around for now.<br /><br />(GG, I don't see that we have any disagreement.  Your comments about Lanfear don't address my points, and I tend to agree with them in and of themselves.  Both of us are speculating, and some of it's not along the same lines).


created: 2002-06-25 21:48:00
subject: <b>Only two options here.</b>
body:
Min's viewings are always simplistic in that they refer to a very narrow point about the viewee. Looking at these quotes in this light, they limit themselves to one of two possible options, one of which is unlikely.<br /><br />First, Min knows who the woman is. Now I doubt it is someone as simple as Morgase. IMHO, it would have been Moiraine or someone as powerful that we haven't met.<br /><br />Second, Min had a vision that Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone, no specific person. She also had a separate viewing about Moiraine that was unfulfilled.<br /><br />Now, if we assume Min told Moiraine everything about the viewings she had on her, and Moiraine was one of the only Aes Sedai she trusted, then the statement that Moiraine makes to Thom could come from that. If Min did see her and Thom married, then this excludes my first option. Simple logic, there is only one viewing that never worked and that was about Moiraine. A viewing combining that with a victory for Rand would be too complex for words.<br /><br />I said when I read it, and I say it now still. These two quotes are connected by Jordan, but they refer to different viewings. One specific, one general.<br /><br />Two other comments before I die of hunger. There more people who believe that Moiraine is still alive that there are who believe Morgase is. Morgase has a couple of Whitecloak officers and the few people with her. Moiraine is still presumed alive by the White Tower, and probably the Little Tower as well. Recall Elaida's rantings at the start of CoS and the statements by the White Tower embassy when Egwene was evesdropping and in the room with Rand behind the weave.<br /><br />Secondly, I'm halfway around the world on holiday and don't have any books with me. Cadsuane is another possibility for dead and gone women. Remember when she arrived and the Aes Sedai kept mentioning they thought she was dead.<br /><br />Don't mind me, just hungry and tired.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 22:06:02
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
&quot;Second, Min had a vision that Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone, no specific person.&quot;<br /><br />Careful here. You have some good points, but the above is a problem for you.  You are making that presumption.  I and others are seeing it as Min had a viewing of a person she knew, but who she THOUGHT was dead and gone. <br /><br />Why I believe our take is correct is that how would such an unknown corpse appear to Min?  Remember, Min has known Moiraine longer than any of the main characters save Lan.<br /><br />She knew Moiraine, and if she saw her (or any other person she personally knew), and considered her gone, then her comment of 'dead and gone' would be appropriate.<br /><br />I understand that we have differing takes on it. I'm just stating the possibility.  Basically, we're arguing grammar and noun/pronoun subjects.<br />


created: 2002-06-26 13:18:16
subject: <b>Thankyou Vashti</b>
body:
GG and I have so much on Thom that we haven't shared.  I will admit that I did not think of the possibility of Thom as Elayne's real father.  It fits.  The reason I know that Thom killed Morgase's husband is because they were lovers and Thom would have discovered his plot to kill Morgase and thus Thom kills him.  I had envisioned Thom confessing to Morgase that he was the killer and why and thats the reason for there breakup.  As lovers theirs a real chance that Thom is Elayne's father.  The timing works perfectly as well.  Another reason for the breakup = Thom is real daddy.<br /><br /><br />One day GG and I will give you something great on Thom.  At the moment we are still putting the peices together.  Everything that we find on Thom is subtle and like you once said Vashti you have to read between the lines.<br /><br />Thanks for the tip Vashti!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />p.s.  Gawyn and Elaine have the same features.  So either Thom is parent of both or just one of the two.  Also Galad is describe to have different features than either Gawyn or Elayne???????????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 15:17:16
subject: <b>all the back to Elaida</b>
body:
Remember her saying &quot;And the Royal House of Andor stands at the heart?&quot;<br /><br />We know Elaida assumed that meant Elayne, but we also know it's Rand, but...<br /><br />Let's consider who's in the royal house, by birth or relation:<br /><br />Rand al'Thor -- Dragon Reborn.  'nuff said.<br /><br />Elayne Trakand -- Daughter-Heir (now struggling Queen), powerful channeler and the Aes Sedai who is rediscovering the creation of *angreals.  Also wife to the Dragon Reborn and mother-to-be of a special set of twins.<br /><br />Morgase Trakand -- Past Queen of Andor, recent puppet of evil-doers everywhere, catalyst-by-rumor of much of the dissension in the world (that Rand slew her and placed whom he wanted on the throne).<br /><br />Gawyn Trakand -- First Sword of Andor, Leader of the Younglings, instrumental figure in the breaking of the White Tower (if you accept, as I do, that he was a surprise factor that helped tip the balance).<br /><br />Galad Damodred -- White Cloak (!), soon-to-be-chief snuggle-bunny for the First of Mayenne (who is one of the top advisors for the Forces of Light).  One of the finest living swordsmen.  Half-brother to the Dragon Reborn<br /><br />Thom Merrilin -- Court Bard, Lover of Queens, Assassin of Kings, Mother of Queens, Uncle of male channeler (perhaps a channeler in his own right), Father-In-Law to the Dragon Reborn, Master of the Game of Houses.<br /><br />(by extension) Moiraine Damodred -- Aes Sedai, slayer of Forsaken, Advisor to the Dragon Reborn, Protector of the same, Discoverer of the Three Ta'veren, Minor Modern-day Legend.<br /><br />Tigraine Damodred -- mother of Galad, Mother of the Dragon Reborn, Husband of Janduin (perhaps a ta'veren?), initiator of the prophecy<br /><br />there're others...<br /><br />Quite the busy family....<br /><br />I look forward to seeing your Thom stuff.  I've actually recanted -- I think Thom's a better PERFORMER than Asmodean was, if not technically better musician)


created: 2002-06-26 21:35:50
subject: <b>Well well well.</b>
body:
Okay, I, too, am not trying to antagonistic here, but The only two that may be truly instrumental in TG are Rand (duh) and Elayne. I'm sorry, but I don't think that Gawyn and Morgase are going to have an important roles to play. They're bit characters, not leading parts. If they had some incredibly important role to play, they would have gotten more playing time. At least that's what I think. <br /><br />No, I think that the &quot;Royal line at the heart&quot; thing was meant to be about Tigraine and thus Rand. The whole point of that was to show us that Eladia was waaaaaaay off and prep us for her future way off foretellings.<br /><br />Great thought above on how Ishy's comments reffered to Rand's real parents, but other than Tigraine going to the Waste, how exactly did the WT control them? unless you're insinuating that Laman cut down the Tree on AS orders based on a Foretelling. That's just too out there for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 12:24:15
subject: <b>Its about lanfaer.</b>
body:
The woman who is dead and gone is definetely Lanfear. She died when going through the terrangreal(spelling) and is gone and replaced by Cyande.  She will help Rand at the last battle because she loves Lews Therin and she will provide knowledge to him that no other forsaken would.  Hows that for a bag of apples?  Sorry to burst eveyones bubble but JE SAIA QUE LANFEAR EST LA FEMME!!!


created: 2002-06-27 13:01:32
subject: <b>Sorry, it can't be Moiraine</b>
body:
After all Min's viewing says that Rand will most certainly fail without a WOMAN who is dead and gone.  Moiraine is definitely a Saidar chanelling male in disguise.  My proof is simple and irrefutable.  Moiraine doesn't sniff enough.<br /><br />It is truly amazing how people can outthink themselves.  There is one fact that is for certain and that is that Min saw a vision around Rand.  That is made 100% clear from the context of the thought.  (Min is telling Rand about visions that she saw around Rand.)  <br /><br />We have no idea what that vision was or even that it involved a face.  (To assume it does is foolish.)  My guess is that the vision was a red and purple aura of a tank top, bellbottoms, and platform shoes dancing disco grooving to Staying Alive while wearing lipstick. <br /><br />I don't know why there aren't more people who think it is Birgitte.  Birgitte is just as good of an option as Moiraine IMHO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 13:18:31
subject: <b>The reason that Birgitte can't be the woman is...</b>
body:
SHE'S ALIVE. REMEMBER? ELAYNE'S WARDER? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 16:25:15
subject: <b>avhienda and RapidWombat??????????</b>
body:
avhienda??? RapidWombat????????????  Birgite as good a bet as Moraine?????????  Obviously from your comments on the subject, Rand clensed the taint to late to save you guys from going MAD!  Unbelievable!  <br /><br /><br />Eye halve a spelling chequer<br />It came with my pea sea<br />It plainly marques four my revue<br />Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.<br /><br />Eye strike a key and type a word<br />And weight four it two say<br />Weather eye am wrong oar write<br />It shows me stait a weigh.<br />As soon as a mist ache is maid<br />It nose bee fore two long<br />And eye can put the error rite<br />Its rare lea ever wrong.<br /><br />Eye have run this poem threw it <br />I am shore your pleased two no <br />Its letter perfect awl the weigh<br />My chequer tolled me sew.<br /><br />- Sauce unknown.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 23:53:47
subject: <b>LMAO @ Columbo!</b>
body:
Great Poem!<br /><br />Did you write it? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 18:14:05
subject: <b>Birgitte may be alive, but she is still 'dead and gone'.</b>
body:
Birgitte may be alive, but she is still 'dead and gone'.  I may be 'mad' but I know how to read. <br /><br />The truth is we may never know for sure.  Probably any number of 'dead and gone' women will eventually save Rand or help him succeed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 03:06:15
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
I'm with avadakedavra. I always thought it could be Liah. Not IS but COULD. I never got why people were so sure it's Moiraine.<br />But I like this theory. Good job, mate!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> loves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 14:03:19
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Very interseting. Ive heard the Moiraine theory a hundred times and believed it was a common conviction that Moiraine was still alive. I see your point and I dont disagree, but I still think Moiraine might still show up sometime later in the series. She was too crucial to the beginning of the series, and anyway Im not sure I like Cadsuane. If you have read the Encyclopedia of the Wheel of Time, which I believe Jordan had some hand in the making, you will know that it hints at the return of Moiraine and Lanfear. <br />Which brings up another interesting question. What if this woman dead and gone is Lanfear? We have seen her help Rand in some ways in the past. And we have seen time and time again that everyone is on thier own agenda. Maybe out of her desire for him she will help him accidently, maybe by showing him how to enter Shayol Ghul or by exposing the location of Demandred or another forsaken.<br />I agree that Min's visions may have nothing to do with Moiraine and may not be connected. But I still believe Moiraine will return.


created: 2002-07-12 07:20:03
subject: <b>Hmmm......</b>
body:
I had always just assumed it was Cadsuane, but thanks for posting another plausible theory. Any theory that has over 90 responses certainly can be considered thought provoking.<br />Thats what the &quot;Theory Post&quot; is all about, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />= Ashaman66 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />=</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-12 18:44:41
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
I never thought about Morgase, and she's the only important person besides Moiraine who is &quot;dead&quot;. This actually gives there a way for Moiraine to come back. But, there's the fact that Min never saw Morgase, and so wouldn't recognise her. She wouldn't know it was Morgase she saw, so she wouldn't know the person was dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-02 12:38:47
subject: <b>Moiraine as a Hero of Legend</b>
body:
The fact that you say Moiraine is not the woman that is dead and gone could be wrong.  Who is to say that she will not return to aid Rand.  Not as the Moiraine we know but as someone called back by the Horn of Valere.  Think about it, the Heroes of Legend are people bound to the wheel for the great things they have done to affect the outcome for the better of Randland.  Who better to be a Hero of Legend than Moiraine.  After all if it wasnt for her Rand, Mat, or Perrin could have died on winternight all those years ago.  And we all know by now that each one of those men is equally important to Rands success in the fight over the shadow.  Moiraine found the Dragon Reborn, and watched over him until she felt that , He would do just fine.  I mean blood and ashes, if she is not qualified to be a hero of legend born time and again than who is.    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-12 16:21:39
subject: <b>You are trying too hard.</b>
body:
This is an easy one. It's Moiraine. Thom will save her, and she'll do something important. <br />Sure, you can get around the 3 visions pointing to it being Moiraine, and say they could mean someone else... but that's kind of stupid.<br />There are plenty of dead women in Randland, after all!<br />Maybe it's an AOL AS, or a Rhuidean AS. They are dead!<br />OH, wait... That's STUPID!<br />Maybe it's the nameless female DF Rand beheaded... she's a Dead female!<br />Oh, wait... That's STUPID!<br />Someone said Liah... she's dead and gone! &quot;Gone!&quot; That's an obvious balefire reference! If they aren't balefired, they are just dead, not dead and gone!<br />And Liah is the only female in the series who has been balefired... Unless it was one of the thousands balefired during the War of Power. Oh well... that was also STUPID!<br /><br />It's Moiraine.<br />Shut up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-02 08:58:48
subject: <b>A women dead and gone</b>
body:
I think cadsuane is an obvious choice, all aes sedai thought she was dead and she has to learn Rand and the ashaman something or he&#180;ll not win the last battle and without her he wouldnt learn to laugh again either so the world would be screwed wether he won the last battle or not


created: 2003-04-29 17:46:13
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Dead, yes, and GONE... through the Rhuidean ter'angereal...<br /><br />One word: Moiraine.<br /><br />Besides. Why would RJ bring up so much stuff about her if he planned to kill her off? Goodness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 19:14:20
subject: <b>What can I possibly say-</b>
body:
That hasn`t been said adinfinitim?<br /><br />Don`t remember if this was said before, but CADSUANE IS ALIVE.  She is not &quot;dead and gone.<br /><br />IMHO, it is Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-28 14:22:26
subject: <b>correction: &quot;a woman dead and gone&quot; might not be Moiraine</b>
body:
I think you are totally right when you say that our all-around knowledge sometimes blindfolds us. But you cannot conclude from your explanations that the &quot;woman dead and gone&quot; is not Moiraine. I agree with you when you write that there is no proof that Moiraine is THAT woman but you jump to the conclusion when you say it's Morgase because we know she's alive. She might be, but so might Moiraine..<br />And I also think the logic behind your paragraph about Min viewing is somewhat flauwed, the failure of Rand without a &quot;woman dead and gone&quot; is future-related, she wouldn't refer to it as &quot;having failed&quot; (past tense). Her failed vision probably concerns Moiraine doing something she hasn't done (to the knowledge of Min or yet, as I personally hope).<br />So I think that saying &lt;&lt;&quot;a woman dead and gone&quot; might not be Moiraine&gt;&gt; is a more accurate phrasing..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Lady Isa</font><br /><br /><font color="pink">nominated WoTboard's Moiraine AND Mesaana</font><br /><font color="blue">Member of the Fearsome Four</font><br /><font color="crimson">Bonded to Sidious and Phil</font><br /><font color="green">Cindy is one <i>Green</i> Redneck</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <font color="violet"><b>July 12th 2008</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 10:00:45
subject: <b>Hey, am I first?</b>
body:
Yes, I liked Hurin, too. An RJ does tend to use and re-use the characters he introduces. Unfortuneatly, I cannot think of anything that may have suggested what happened to him. I guess we will just have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 10:29:52
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Well I think that he infact made it. Othervice how would the Borderland ruler know so much about what happend in Falme when they talk to Elayne in WH. The Borderlands are big and it should take some time to spread the news among the rulers and if they wanted it to have been secret it would have taken longer time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 10:44:25
subject: <b>More....</b>
body:
He could have been captured by Seanchan seekers, thats a possibility.  Though getting captured by Darkfriends is a more likely possibility.  Of course he would have been turned if he was captured.  So if we see a character later on that no one recognizes but acts as if he and everyone else stinks, thats Hurin.


created: 2002-06-20 10:58:46
subject: <b>Not sure</b>
body:
...what to think yet, but I'm really glad you posted. I really liked him.  I'm wondering if he wasn't one mainly responsible for the Border Kingdom exodus being made.


created: 2002-06-20 11:04:46
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
When I first read that what seems so long ago, I thought it was RJ's way of letting Hurin just ride off into the sunset. He played his role and did his job...nothing else for him to do...<br /><br />But I agree with the person above that RJ oes like to re-use his characters so maybe we haven't seen the last of the sniffer.<br /><br />btw, is it just me or does anyone else think that the whole &quot;smelling evil&quot; thing was kinda cheap...not to criticize or anything <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 12:52:19
subject: <b>I am inclined to think</b>
body:
that he will appear with the borderlander army near Caemlyn. Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society.&quot; ~Mark Twain<br /><br />&quot;No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.&quot; ~Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 13:37:30
subject: <b>gabbekj is right.</b>
body:
Our favorite sniffer made it back to Shienar.  As gabbekj mentions the Borderland leaders knew that Elayne was at Falme.  Hurin is the only likely source of that information.  <br /><br />Also, I think that Hurin was probably the first to bring the news to Shienar.  Kings and Queens generally receive news fairly quickly and it would take time for Hurin to reach Shienar.  I have no doubt that Saldea and Arafel heard the news first from other sources.  <br /><br />The reason that it took the borderlanders so long to get to Caemlyn was that they first had to deal with internal politics (there were a number of rumors of squirmishes) and that it takes time to organize the armies and to march them the long distance.<br /><br />I wouldn't mind seeing Hurin again.  There is the possibility he is with the armies but not necessarily.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 13:51:50
subject: <b>Cool theory</b>
body:
Wow. I'm definitely not used to agreeing with theories or other people, but this is a good theory. Hurin was one of my favorites from the fellows from Shienar, right up there with Uno and Ingtar. It'd be great to see him come back... and the vocal showdown that could begin with Juilin over who is the better thief catcher/thief taker. Like you said, it isn't like RJ to let one of his characters ride out into the sunset and fade away completely from the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 19:58:13
subject: <b>I don't think that he was captured</b>
body:
I think that if he was captured, he will not be coming back. It doesn't fit for the shadow to capture him and let him live, it would be much easier for &quot;them&quot; to kill him, but I don't think that happened. He won't have been turned to the shadow because he can't channel and thus that chink is not available. I think that he got to Shenieer and spred his news. I haven't seen anything in the series to indicate that the borderlanders didn't know ahead of time. It is also a possibility that he told his news and wasn't believed. <br /><br />A book is a mirror: when a monkey looks in no apostle can look out<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda


created: 2002-06-21 00:52:22
subject: <b>Good ol' Hurin</b>
body:
Ok, nice theory, but I do have one comment. Your point about him not reaching Shienar before the rest of the world heard doesn't work for me. The rest of the world heard by people JUST like Hurin, traveling, going home, etc. It is people like Hurin that are on the move, cross-country, who spread such news, even though it gets a little twisted along the way. This is one of the ongoing themes of the story, and why Rand has such a hard time keeping crap in line. <br /><br />So, I think Shiner would have heard about Falme about the same time as everybody else, give or take a week or so. After all, they didn't use traveling or portal stones to return, they just hoofed it back to TV, and then Hurin took off North.<br /><br />Now, about Hurin leaving the story, and will he come back? Well I always had a gut instinct that Hurin was a bit TOO handy. I mean, if Rand had Hurin working for him, talk about being a right hand man. I am sure if I tried hard I could come up with instances where Hurin would have been a killer asset, but I am sure you can just imagine too, heh, and it is late and I am tired. <br /><br />I think Hurin is going to pop up again, most likely with the Northern Alliance (heh). Maybe he will have a part in helping Elayne. They do have a BA in their midst, and who better to sniff her out then Hurin? <br /><br />Final note; if he did die, then I expect to see him when the horn is blown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 02:28:21
subject: <b>I could of sworn that sign back there said Theory Post...</b>
body:
Wow I like Hurin! He is so Cool! What a great guy! I would, like, so go out with him! Can I braid your hair? <br /><br />THIS IS THE THEORY POST! WHERE IS THE THEORY? THAT SOMETHING MIGHT OF HAPPENED TO SOME CHARACTER SOMEWHERE? GREAT GIBBERING GOATFISH!<br /><br />This is one of the most embarressing things I have ever seen, especially to whoever allowed this to get posted. I going to submit a theory that says Mat is cool and another that says Something happened to a farmer in oh, lets say, the Black Hills. Ill get a hundred points Woo!<br /><br />By the way how do vote for or against this kinda of thing?<br /><br /><br />Flaming Fools!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 02:57:21
subject: <b>hey, vashti...</b>
body:
[warning: this will be something you are not used to, but work with me here. I actually want your opinion on this, I will not insult you, I will not take cheap digs at you, and I will not dispute your idea because I honestly have no facts as to where Hurin went. I want to know why you think this, and I'm not even ATTEMPTING to burn you.]<br /><br />How do you suppose Hurin could be the cause of the Borderland armies riding south?<br /><br />[I have no idea how this could be possible, so any idea is worth considering.]<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 03:37:02
subject: <b>Alliandre...</b>
body:
... is quite the optimist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 04:09:38
subject: <b>Yeah, I've suspected that Hurin would be in the Borderland army...</b>
body:
since they began to march south. The above point about sniffing out BA was something I've never even contemplated. Mabye that's what will finally open Rand's eyes about Taim???<br /><br />Very interesting. <br /><br />I agree: He is just too important to never return; I mean, when Hawkwing himself tells you that you could join the ranks one day... I mean, come on! That's pretty much an open ended ticket to heroism later!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 08:57:26
subject: <b>Hey Scorp</b>
body:
You know what else is funny?  15 other people seem to think enough of this theory to comment on it.  I seem to recall reading 4 options for what happened to Hurin in the text of this theory, and then the author wanted to see the discussion that went on on the blackboard. What exactly is wrong with that?  Why do some people have to be so negative?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:50:12
subject: <b>Why I think (Response)</b>
body:
...and, mind you, I mention him being one main reason.  Not 'THE' reason. <br /><br />Here's why:  <br />While Agelmar regarded Rand and his fellows as bumpkins that was before the conclusion of the Eye of the World...<br /><br />First, I'll deal with Rand) <br /><br />1.Since that time, Rand was obvious over Tarwin Gap as the savior of the Shienar army. Or...if not obvious, he would/could be in retrospect. <br /><br />2. He was the chosen, dedicated student of Lan, whom the Shienar (and by extension, all borderlanders) absolutely revere and respect.  That would be extended to Rand, as well. <br /><br />3. Rand was appointed as second-in-command after Ingtar on the chase for the Horn.  While I don't remember if it said who did that, it very well may have been from Agelmar himself.<br /><br />4. Speculation:  Shienar (and others) may well have learned that Masema is now The Prophet.  That's gotta make them think at least a little.  But again, speculation.<br /><br />5. Even the Border Kingdoms aren't immune to info regarding Tear and Falme. They probably learned through other means that Rand is, in fact, the Dragon Reborn.  I'm pretty much assuming this.  Their Aes Sedai alone would likely tell.<br /><br />6. If you recall, when Rand was trying to hide from the Amyrlin Seat in the women's quarters, he gained a lot of interest and admiration from the Shienar women.  AND...there were numerous allusions to Shienar women being essentially equals and quite influential with the men. <br /><br />7.  The Amyrlin Seat had an interest in Rand.  That's notable for Shienarians.<br /><br />8.  Rand WAS, after all, part of the party that found the Horn and defeated the Forsaken (and then Tarwin's Gap).<br /><br />Okay, that's about Rand.  I was just setting the stage that yes, Shienar (and perhaps by extension, other border kingdoms) was aware that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. Also, that there was some foundation for respect for Rand, before he left to chase the Horn. I further propose that the Shienar freely discuss things of such import with their fellow Borderlanders. <br /><br />Now for Hurin:<br />1.  I believe, of all the Shienaran soldiers who left to chase the Horn, he is the only one unaccounted for, and he had made the stated purpose of returning to Shienar.  If we accept that he returned, that would make him the ONLY returning member of that party.<br /><br />2. Hurin seemed like a fawning henchman, but at the outset, he was a man of respect in Shienar.<br /><br />3. Some speculation:  As a Thief-Taker, it is highly probable (almost to the point of certainty) that Hurin was aware of Ingtar's darkness. How could he not be? I don't have the copy of TGH, but I believed his 'eyes widened' when Rand gave the death blessing to Ingtar.  Now, by this point, Hurin is absolutely and completely Rand's man.  He already reveres him.  He alone of everyone (aside from Rand and Ingtar) knew what their commentary meant before Ingtar's death (btw, Ingtar is my second favorite of all WoT characters).<br /><br />Essentially, a high-ranking Lord (Ingtar) was treated with mercy and kindness -- and grateful for it -- by Rand, when showing none would have been understood; even further solidifying Hurin's worship and respect of Rand. <br /><br />4.  Hurin, of course, accompanied Rand (and Lanfear) on the split party.  He saw first-hand how complete strangers reacted to Rand.  And that includes Kings and Lords.  So, not only does he know Shienarans hold Rand in great respect, but he saw (and can relate) that Lords of other lands do so as well, even if they don't know who he is.  Rand's insistence at not exalting himself would be appealing to the serious-minded Borderlanders.<br /><br />5.  Falme.  Hurin was there when the Horn was blown, when Hawkwing and Oscar and Birgitte and others came to the sound of the legendary artifact -- and instead, followed Rand.  Basically, Hurin heard King Artur Paendrag act as a vassal to Rand al'Thor.  <br /><br />6. Falme B.  Much was made of how a Shienarian would accept a wound to protect a lady and consider it a fair trade, and Rand's insistence on freeing Egwene, etc. showed a human side that Shienarians (and other Borderlanders) can identify with, approve of, and truly respect.  In fact, it may well have been the key to Ingtar's salvation. Hurin saw this (and could relate it).<br /><br />7. Speculation, but interesting.  With the mess with the Portal Stone, as everyone experienced all kinds of lives, that presumably meant Hurin did the same.  Now, we know Hurin's respect/awe weren't diminished any. So who knows what he saw? Surely, since he was connected with Rand, he saw much that was educational.  This is simple thought candy though. <br /><br />8. Lastly, Hurin, in spite of his loyalty to Rand, followed duty and left to report to Shienar.  I don't have anything to add to this, so I simply submit it as a further condition.<br /><br />Conclusion:  I submit that Hurin made it back.  And, given all the above (and more) that he could relate to Agelmar (thus to Easar, and by extension other Border Kings), Hurin could paint a picture of Rand that would galvanize the Borderlanders in a way that no rumor or news could. <br /><br />One of their own had intimate knowledge of the Dragon Reborn, his motivations, his instincts, his ethics and morals, and all that adds up to something of which the Borderlanders would approve and respect.  This could be communicated to them by someone who had no axe to grind or agenda to sell, someone who had a good track record of their own within their Society. <br /><br />Thus, I feel that Hurin was a key element into the exodus of the Borderlanders. <br />


created: 2002-06-21 14:01:38
subject: <b>Compelling evidence...</b>
body:
Let's not forget that Elaida gave us a good tip as to Hurin making it. During one of the rebel excusions to Elaida's study Sheriam found a report about civil war in the border lands. &quot; 'The fighting in Shienar and Arafel is dying down,' Sheriam muttered half to herself, 'but still nothing here to say why it began. Skirmishes only, yet Bordermen do not fight one another. They have the Blight.' She was Saldean, and Saldea was one of the Borderlands.&quot; pg 156 tLoC hardcover. My guess is that Hurin made it and that his accounts started the unrest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 17:00:25
subject: <b>Egwene you Skank!</b>
body:
Look I like Hurin as much as the next guy. He is one of my favorite characters next to Balwer. BUT that doesnt mean im gonna send in a post that says something could of happened to him without any supporting facts at all. Hurin has very little standing in the government of Shienar. If any. He tracks down thieves. It would be almost impossible for him to cause any kind of reaction among the Shienarans in any way. His info on the Dragon Reborn would have arrived at least a week after Shienar already new from merchants who traveled directly to Shienar (there had to be some) instead of making a detour to Tar Valon first. Besides this theory is pointless. OK it got people talking. WOWZER! Well if you look at the posts they all say either 'i like hurin too' or 'yeah he was cool' just phrased differently. Anyone who thinks Hurin could get to see the King is deluded he would have to climb the political ladder of Fal Dara to see Lord Agelmar who could send him with a message to the King of Shienar who resides in Fal Moran. By that time Hurin could tell him nothing he didnt already know. Hurin's actions after leaving the party are inconsequential. If you wanna talk about him then go to the chat room or message boards. Dont post moronic things about him on the theory posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 19:17:29
subject: <b>Scorp read Vashti's arguments</b>
body:
He made a pretty good case although it is of course speculation. No one knows what happens beyond the ink of Jordan's pen. As for the theories a good portion of them are just guesses and speculation, but really what's wrong with that? If you don't like what you see my suggestion is to post your own theory. <br /><br />A books is a mirror when a monkey looks in no apostle can look out<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda


created: 2002-06-21 19:36:45
subject: <b>Or better yet Scorp...</b>
body:
just don't say anything yourself!<br /><br />You criticize someone for taking the time and effort to put together an interesting theory simply because you don't like its merit, yet you put up two totally USELESS responses that we all have to read when trying to see more meaningful comments.<br /><br />I'll just leave it at that...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 21:22:57
subject: <b>Speculation is the Nature of this Board</b>
body:
I'm just glad the discussion turned cool and civil again, when someone posted what could be perceived as a strong comment, or even a reach, was politely asked to explain, and did.<br /><br />Hurin was, for one book, a 'main' character.  When dealing with that group (the way Jordan flashes between groups), he had something to say pretty much every page, and that was in some fast company (the Dragon Reborn and a Forsaken). <br /><br />Plus, it was early in the series, so by the time TGH ended, Hurin could be seen as a fairly primarly character.  I don't think any other character that got such a play up disappeared so completely without being heard from again. <br /><br />Hurin was likeable.  One of the last times we saw him, he'd been the recipient of an ambiguous comment by one of the greatest figures of history.  Now, it's likely Hawkwing was being kind to the brave, over-matched thief-taker...but RJ is notorious for making little comments mean something. <br /><br />For Hurin to reach Shienar meant that he crossed -- alone -- a land suddenly ripped apart by the strife caused by the revelation of the Dragon.  Shienar and Falme are almost opposite ends of Westland from each other.  He had no noted money, and merely his wits and skills to serve him.  Further speculation would indicate that he may have reasonably found angling up to the Borderlands -- where he and his kind were understood and accepted -- would be a safer bet.  So, rampant speculation indicates that he could've lit a fire throughout the Border Kingdoms as he traveled. <br /><br />Speculation? Sure. But it makes sense.  SOMETHING fired up the Borderlands -- enough for them to somehow find reason to abandon their ancient charge; protecting against from whatever comes out of the Blight. <br /><br />Hurin's account would be MORE than that of a simple traveler.  He was the close companion/servant of the Dragon Reborn -- his first.  While I agree he does not have rank, if memory serves me, rank in the BK was a bit secondary to what a man did and how he acted.  Hurin crossed a continent and helped recover the Horn of Valere.  He fought against the dread invaders, the Seanchan, and their strange, monstrous beasts and fell lightnings.  He fought at the side of Artur Paendrag and other Heroes of legend, and was considered a worthy companion.  Then, when the task was completed, he (presumably) crossed BACK across the continent -- alone -- to report to his superiors.   <br /><br />Hurin has all the trappings of a hero, all the build-up to be very key character...and then he disappeared. This has left a lot of people, including myself, unsatisfied. Not incidentally, RJ introduced another key figure who was also a thief-taker right after in Juilian Sandar.  It's just weird.  And I think it's worth discussion on this board.


created: 2002-06-21 21:29:32
subject: <b>Theories</b>
body:
In the 'lauging logain' dream section in ACOS Egwene dismisses a dream as &quot;just a nightmare&quot; which sounds like she is headed for the Tower of Ghenjii. I sent it to the Theory Post but it didn't get a mention. Then they show this theory which is.................I'm sorry I've calmed down now. Sorry about that<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-21 21:37:57
subject: <b>So...</b>
body:
maybe the Borderland fighting was over Hurin's account? People disagreeing and arguing over whether or not the rumors of Hurin's words were true? Interesting, Vashti, and like you said, worth discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 22:21:25
subject: <b>By the way...</b>
body:
thanks for answering my question in the 1st place. I didn't expect you to, seeing as you've been getting dissed a lot lately by a lot of people (myself included.) I think it is worth discussing... that the battles might well have been started by Borderlanders disputing whether the rumors of Rand or Hurin's account of his travels with Rand were true. And, if this is the case, hopefully it was those that believed Hurin that won the argument...<br /><br />Or it could be that Hurin coming along settled the argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 22:53:11
subject: <b>Glad To</b>
body:
I -never- mind good interplay.  I can understand your prior points about humor (elsewhere), but I think you can understand given the shots I've been taking, I wasn't in the most receptive mood.  Frankly, this is why I like the theory board. Time and again we see threads take off in completely different directions then they started.  That's what I enjoy about the series. <br /><br />I almost never check out other parts of this webpage.


created: 2002-06-22 01:00:04
subject: <b>I sparked a fire!</b>
body:
Hello, It's me Kritter. The author of this post in case you hadn't noticed.<br /><br />I've been getting a lot of controversy about my post... especially from one particular person... and well truthfully, I really liked Hurin. Nobody else seemed to care what happened to him though, and I couldn't see why he just dissapeared (ya gotta admit it really is not like RJ at all), so I wrote a theory to get people talking about him.<br /><br />Sorry if you don't like the theory because &quot;it's not really a theory&quot;, but hey, it got posted didn't it?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Besides I think it is a theory, Hurin will come back. That in itself is a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 01:33:28
subject: <b>Hurin cannot smell evil</b>
body:
he smells violence.  Which is why Ingtar wasn't revealed as being a DF by Hurin, as all Ingtar did was let the gray man in at the Dog Gate in Fal Dara.<br /> This means Ingtar had nothing to do with freeing Fain or killing the guards to allow the Fade and Trollocs in to steal the Horn.  <br /> It just raises some more questions<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 02:20:44
subject: <b>He had to have gone back</b>
body:
How else would the Northern Alliance leaders have known that Elayne was a close companion, maybe a friend, of the Dragon Reborn at Falme? Only mat, Verin, rand, Min, possibly moiraine and Lan, Nynaeve, and perrin could have testified to that apart from Hurin. No-one else was there to, and Hurin traveled back with Elayne. he would know who she was. I  always took the fact that Hurin told Tenobia et. al. about Elayne as a given, becuase there was no-one else who went back to the Borderlands who could have told them. Unless you suggest the Borderlanders acted on some random rumour spread byu some Falmen that a woman with red-gold hair who could channel might have been in Falme, might have been a friend of the DR, and might have been the Daughter-Heir. No, Hurin's the only one who could know that who was going to the Borderlands. Obviously, it was him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 22:01:37
subject: <b>Into the Lion's Den...</b>
body:
I think you all have come up with some very interesting... nay, fascinating theories about the whereabouts of Hurin. I too liked him, but I think I have a more disabused theory, not relating to where, but rather why.<br />   I am, admittedly, looking at the situation from a writer's point of view, and not that of a participant in the story, but isn't it possible that despite fan approval, Jordan didn't like Hurin? He had many traits  which were shared by Lan and Thom and even Nynaeve's &quot;weather&quot; sense. This similarity, not to mention the introduction of Juilin, and a subtle shift in Thom's character, leads me to believe that Jordan realized he had so much good stuff in one character that he decided to break it up into several. In this sense, Hurin may have been a rough draft of other characters and was simply left out of the story to provide room for their introduction.<br />   Jordan doesn't seem one to waste, but with such prolific writing the opportunity for more supporting characters (and believe me the Ta'veren need some supporting) is one he wouldn't pass up.


created: 2002-06-26 14:36:43
subject: <b>Hurin will return, but...</b>
body:
... he did make it to Fal Dara.  There was mention in one of the books (I can't remember where) that the Shienarans were having a civil war over some news about Rand.  Who else could have brought them that news?  Hurin is the only one who returned.  The rest of the topknots stayed with Masema or Uno.  I think Verin or Moiraine mentioned in book 3 that &quot;Hurin has gone back to Shienar.&quot;<br /><br />In all liklihood, Hurin is currently with the Borderland armies.  Which means that he will be reunited with some of the main characters soon.  If he is not with the armies, then he was left behind in Shienar... which means that he may play a key role when the Trollocs from the Blight attack.<br /><br />You're right about him being a major supporting cast member.  There's no way he's gone forever.  RJ wouldn't do that.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-27 11:59:28
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I always just assumed (my bad for doing that<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) that RJ did not have an immediate need for Hurin, so he sent him back to Shienar.  When the need for a theif catcher came up again, RJ decided to write Juilin who has a little more believable talent (in my opinion) than Hurin.  Hurin could smell the violence, while Juilin simply hunts people down.  Basically, he just replaced Hurin with Juilin.  But, of course, Hurin will probably come back up.  At least no one thinks that Hurin was Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Fencing is the reason guns were invented.</i> -- Emily Yoffe</font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phyg_uIPQII" target="_blank">Beaker Lip Syncs The Hits!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-06 02:40:37
subject: <b>What was Verin thinking?</b>
body:
Verin is one of the characters most dedicated to making sure Rand reached the Last Battle.  Letting Hurin spread the news that there is a (presumed by others to be false) Dragon on the Almoth Plain is not a good way to guarauntee his safety.  When Faile learns the same thing in TDR, Moiraine forbids her from ever leaving.  Granted, thousands of people in Falme saw the giant battle in the sky, but Moiraine's actions should have had at least some parallel in Verin.


created: 2002-07-06 08:05:11
subject: <b>I think not</b>
body:
Pedron Niall says in LOrd of Chaos, &quot;...the fighting in Shienar had begun at about the time the Stone of Tear was falling, confirmation of the witches involvemnet if any were needed&quot;.<br /><br /> I believe that NIall believes that the Aes Sedai were involved because the fighting began so soon after the fall of the Stone the power had to be used somehow. But in reality Hurin, who departed early in the Dragon Reborn would have got to Shienar at about that time. THere would be no way for fighting to begin in a Borderland country without prior notice.


created: 2002-07-20 15:50:50
subject: <b>Hurin's Position</b>
body:
Only to comment on Hurin's position in Shienar. He is well thought off and respected as he is Lord Agelmar's thief-catcher. And he was sent on one of Shienear's mostimportant quests ever, to reclaim the stolen Horn of Valere, so Hurin has obvious reach toward Lord Agelmar if not clout. And Lord Agelmar is thought to be one of the greatest generals od that timee, probably second only to Bashere and he has close ties to the Shienaran king. So i see no way why a message brought by one of his trusted man will not carry weight in Shienar.


created: 2002-07-25 17:39:01
subject: <b>Just a thought.</b>
body:
I was rereading the series again, (gee, what a surprise here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) And I read about the Borderland battles.  Supposedly, they were over whether or not Rand was the Dragon Reborn.  The fighting started at about the same time the Stone fell to Rand.  Anyone else think that maybe Hurin got back to Sheinar (where the fighting started), gave his report and started this rather lively debate?  Hurin's porbably still in Fal Dara watching the results of his haste to return from Tar Valon.  I also believe that Hurin was the Borderland Rulers' source of information about Elayne being at Falme.  Hurin knew she was there, and would have reported her presence to Agelmar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-13 17:36:54
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Of Course Hurin made it back to Shienar. He was responsible for all the fighting in the borderlands over whether or not Rand is the Dragon.<br /><br />Also, he is the reason the borderlander monarchs know that Elayne was at Falme.


created: 2002-09-23 08:19:35
subject: <b>Overlooked theory</b>
body:
I think that Hurin is going to be much more important than he seems to be. Not only is he one of the 'five ride forth' prophecy, but the most important quote is Hawkwing's and that Hurin will become one of the Horn group. RJ said somewhere that he was originally trying to write five books and the first three books are especially loaded with hints, pprophecies and the vital plot elements. Hurin features heavily in these books and the obvious hint that he will become a Hero leads me to believe that he will feature strongly before the end before joining Hawkwing et al perhaps during the Last Battle. As to where he is, he got home and (I am nearly sure he mentions that he is married) catching up with his wife and continuing to be in the service of Agelmar.<br /><br />There you are. Thoughts?


created: 2002-10-02 17:09:43
subject: <b>correct me if I'm wrong but...</b>
body:
Didn't he feature in the Dragon Reborn as part of the party to take Mat to Tar Valon?  I believe when he parted with the ladies/Mat he said he was returning home but they should call for him if they needed him.  I'd be amazed if noone else pointed this out.


created: 2002-10-08 22:39:06
subject:
<b>HE made it to ShienAR and then he got sidetracked  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
OK now i believe that Hurin made it all the way to Shienar but when he told Lord Agelmar in Fal Dara of what happened in Falme <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> sorry like the lightsaber a lot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Ok back to business.... yes when Lord Agelmar heard of what happened in Falme he then told Hurin to go do something extremely important that will play a crucial role later on in the series and help Rand or the good side out significantly.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Now that's what i think will happen to Hurin or did happen if this whole Wheel of Time magnificence took place in the past


created: 2003-02-20 22:50:58
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
hurin was cool and that would be sweet for him to come back(maybe as THE LORD CAPTAIN COMMANDER OF THE WHITECLOAK FORCES?!?!?!?!?! yes maybe some of u think that whitecloaacks suck, but the ones who aren't DFs are very super cool. YEah or maybe Hurin will lead some guys armies( i think that military leaders in WOT are very cool and who better fits that description than hurin?!?!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 13:27:12
subject: <b>He becomes a hero of the horn</b>
body:
I remeber something that Aurthr Hawkwing said to Hurin before the rode at Falme.  Something about him being brave and maybe becoming a hero.  i think this might be true and that if he was some how killed or something like that, when the horn is sounded at the Last Battle Hurin will arvie with them all.  Makes sence dosen't it.<br /><br />the hunter<br /><br />Gwydion Quatar<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Gwydion Quatar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />    Champion of Mankind<br />       Knight of Passion<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-24 11:50:21
subject: <b>I doubt anything happened..</b>
body:
And here's why..<br />I was re-reading WH, when I came across a passage that I never thought of before. (If someone already brought this up, I;m sorry, haven't read the comments)<br />In the chapter Expectation, p. 594 of the paperback copy, there's a passage that might prove that Hurin did in fact arrive in Shienar. Merilille just got back from visiting the Boderlanders army in New Braem and was telling Elayne about it. Here's what I found:<br />&quot;.. Tenobia of Saldea let slip, or pretended to let slip, that they know you have some connection to, or least a close acquaintance with, a certain person in whom they also apparently have an interest. Somehow they know of your presence in Falme when certain events took place.&quot;<br /><br />and in the very next paragraph:<br />&quot;.. Elayne wondered how these people from the Borderlands had learned what very few others knew. And if they knew, how many more did, too?&quot;<br /><br />By her own thoughts, we know that not a lot of people knew that she was at Falme. Now, how COULD the Borderlanders have known, unless someone they knew, and who knew Elayne, told them? Hurin did in fact accompany Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Verin and Mat back to Tar Valon, so he obviously knew her.  His last words (or close to, I don't quite remember without by book) were that he had to go home to tell them about Falme.


created: 2003-07-01 19:19:13
subject: <b>Hurin returned to Shienar=</b>
body:
By boat from Tar Valon, the same way the Amyrlin and party went, then overland.  He could have been there in short order.<br /><br />He will surely be back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 13:05:37
subject: <b>possible theory....</b>
body:
i have a possible theory here peeps..... who agrees that Hurin may well be a wolfbrother? <br />he could smell violence, who else in the series do we know did something like that? <br /><br />......known wolfking Perrin<br /><br />if he isnt, what is his Talent?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-02 00:24:06
subject: <b>wolf brother?</b>
body:
Being a sniffer is a new/reborn talent.  Did he have golden eyes?  No.  Did he ever mention wolves?  No.  Were there other sniffers mentioned? Yes.<br /><br />And RJ doesn't have to recycle every single character.  Hurin played his role, that's it.


created: 2005-09-05 20:23:32
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that being a sniffer and being a wolfbrother may be similar, but they are not the same thing. No evidence, just my gut talking. and it's hungry. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-24 20:32:56
subject: <b>Hurin will return...</b>
body:
Week 5 Question: Will Hurin the Sniffer return in any of the remaining books? Please? We miss him. Could you share some insight as to why you decided not to use him after The Great Hunt?<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers: He'll turn up again. He hasn't reappeared earlier because the part he had to play was a sidelight to the main story. You should be able to glean some of what he was doing, what effect he and the news he brought was having, from the news that came out of the Borderlands in the books following The Dragon Reborn, though. <br /> <br />This is from QotW. Answer any questions?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 10:59:50
subject: <b>Good job...</b>
body:
You seem to have covered this pretty comprehensively, but I would say one thing and that is just how aware is the wheel of time? Seems to me like you're saying that it knows what it wants people to do and makes them do it. I always had the impression the wheel just sort of existed, the fabric of reality or some such, with no particular aim or consciousness. Can't give you any exact quotes but I'm sure it's been said that the wheel is neither good nor evil and thus doesn't take sides. Since we've seen a world where the DO won (in TGH) that would suggest the wheel doesn't (or at least can't) always ensure events turn out the same way, another example might be if (and I accept Ishy may have been lying) the Dragon ever did serve the DO. I suspect more that Ta'veren, since they seem to have a greater 'presence' in the pattern, are more suseptable to the overall pull of the wheel turning, and so get caught up in events, just as those around them are pulled towards the Ta'veren.<br /><br />So, in conclusion (sorry, i've started to ramble a bit): Yes I agree that around Ta'veren the pattern distorts in order to allow them to follow the overall pull of the pattern in making events go the right way to ensure the wheel will continue to turn, but I don't think this is under the control of a conscious design, unless it is that of the Creator.<br /><br />P.S. To those of you who I'm sure will write something along the lines of &quot;But this isn't a real theory, EVERYONE knows this already, it's SO obvious, why are the admins wasting our time etc, etc...&quot;(since there always seem to be some of you) just don't bother.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 11:15:46
subject: <b>All hail Random Monkey...</b>
body:
&quot;P.S. To those of you who I'm sure will write something along the lines of &quot;But this isn't a real theory, EVERYONE knows this already, it's SO obvious, why are the admins wasting our time etc, etc...&quot;(since there always seem to be some of you) just don't bother.&quot;<br /><br />Thank you!!! We admins don't write the theories, yet we somehow take the blame when people are unhappy with them.  The last book has been out for so long that most of the theories that are truly unique (or bizarre) have long since been posted (and sometimes reposted).  I think we should thank the people who bother to compile these theories that are more philisophical in nature, anyway.  This kind of theory can really inspire a lot of blackboard discussion, and it's not all going to be &quot;Taim is Demandred&quot;  &quot;No he's not!&quot; back and forth.  <br /><br />And not everything is 'obvious' to everyone, so why don't we try to act like a community and be a little nicer to each other?  OK, OK *getting off soap-box*  My work here is done.  <br /><br />Nice job, borderlander!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 11:58:47
subject: <b>Good job...</b>
body:
I agree that there are some things a Ta'veren MUST do. But I also think it's a kind of give/take relationship. The Ta'veren are bound to the Wheel and have to do certain things but the Wheel also follows what a Ta'veren does sometimes. I don't think I am explaining myself right. I think of it kinda like the Force in Star Wars. Jedi are kinda like Ta'veren. This I think sums up my idea of the Wheel/Ta'veren relationship...<br /><br />Luke - &quot;You mean it controls your actions?&quot;<br />Obiwan - &quot;Partially, but it also obeys your commands.&quot;<br /><br />So now that I have proven to you all what a nerd I am, I'll leave you with that. Thank you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society.&quot; ~Mark Twain<br /><br />&quot;No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.&quot; ~Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:08:05
subject: <b>You're not a nerd...</b>
body:
Anyone who DOESN'T have at least a few lines of Star Wars memorized is a nerd.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:54:36
subject: <b>okay</b>
body:
Taveren are pulled along by the pattern.  Correct.  Taveren can go against the pull of the pattern.  Correct.  If you will recall Mat's meeting with the Finns.  Mat says &quot; Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean?&quot;  Finns respond &quot; You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fullfilled&quot;.<br /><br />It seems that Mat had the ability to make the wrong choice and thus become vulnerable or unprotected.  I believe this is also known to Ishmael and that is why he tried to turn Rand early in the series to the darkside.  Ishmael is aware of the possibility of turning Rand and using him for something other than what he was created to do.<br /><br />Also I believe that Ishmael is also very strongly Taveren.  and that might explain the Hawkwing thing.  I don't have the qoute in front of me at the moment that suggests this.  Sorry.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 13:11:32
subject: <b>Thanks Laurianna but...</b>
body:
What about those of us who have EVERY line memorized? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society.&quot; ~Mark Twain<br /><br />&quot;No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.&quot; ~Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 13:25:56
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
I was going to say that this is a rediculous and anyone whos read the books should know all this, but after seeing some of the recent posts apparently there are many of you out there who have a serious lack when it comes to reading comprehension. This is stated so many times throughout the books its not even funny hence the post goes on and on and on with info. So I hope this helped some of  you out there to understand the pattern weave better (like its hard) because there really is no theory here, rather a compilation of facts on the ta'veren/pattern relationship.<br /><br />It is nice to see a theory not based on speculation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 13:39:28
subject: <b>Is it really so &quot;rediculous&quot; ?</b>
body:
I think what's TRULY lame is for you to insult our intelligence when you can't even spell.  Why do you come to the theory post is our stupidity offends you? Do you just like to be ticked off at something?<br />Quit picking on the theorists; if you want to mock someone, why don't you go play in front of a mirror? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 14:28:19
subject: <b>Free Will</b>
body:
How does this theory jive with a human's free will?  If humans have no control over their destinies, then they have no resposibility for their actions.  I.E. the devil, or the Wheel, made me do it.  If that were the case, you cannot fault Padan Fain for being an evil psychopath, because the Wheel made all his decisions for him.  Same thing goes for Rand, Mat, Perrin, Demandred, Ishamel, Lanfear, Sammael, etc, etc, etc.  <br /><br />However, we do hold people responsible for their actions precisely because we have free will.  A person's choices are what make him/her an evil person.  <br /><br />In addition, if the Wheel was the one making all the choices, then you could not say it was neutral, since it has a goal/objective.  We know (from the outsie looking in) that the good guys will win, so you could say the wheel was good.  On the other hand, the wheel allows evil acts to happen when it could prevent them, so it could be considered evil.  It boils down to the same question that if there is a just, and omnipotent God, why do bad things happen to good people.  <br /><br />Of course what I just said does not go to the validity of the theory, only to the validity of the WOT as a model of our own universe.  Good theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 14:42:03
subject: <b>Re: Free will</b>
body:
Ummmm....is Padan Fain t'avern?  Is everyone in wotland?  Then your rationale isn't applicable.  And even t'avern have some degree of choice.  Their choices are just much more limited, because the Wheel will try to force them down the path it wants.  Hence the comment the Finn made to Mat, quoted in the theory that shows he could choose not to go to Rhuidan.  He would just die for making that choice.  As has been stated, this was more an explanation of relevant passages than a theory, but still very well done.  Maybe it belongs more in the FAQ than the theory post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 15:27:05
subject: <b>Columbo covered my thoughts already...</b>
body:
I feel that Ishmael was always ta'varen. A strong one, too. I mean, how do you become 'partially trapped' when 100 of the strongest male AS put locks of cuendillar around you to bind you outside of the pattern???? It just doesnt happen.<br /><br />BTW, I have a new favorite Screen name of ALL TIME: Egwene the Skank.<br /><br />LMAO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 15:35:44
subject: <b>Something similar</b>
body:
Good theory / fact.  Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated, so the rest of the world can understand.  Your theory sounded very familiar to me and an argument I had with the various bible thumpers in college.  Especially the part about Ishy and Hawkwing.  This is similar to Jesus and Judas.  My argument was that Christ needed Judas in order to die and be resurrected.  At the time I went as far as to say that Christianity really need to give Judas one big THANK YOU for betraying Jesus.  A bit extreme, yes, but I think a valid point.  Like the Wheel of Time and the &quot;threads&quot; or &quot;weaves&quot; - Judas was Ta'veren for one specific reason at one specific point in the &quot;pattern&quot;:  To betray Jesus.  Hawkwing/Rand are like Jesus - Big Time Ta'veren, which the &quot;Pattern&quot; had plans for, and needed to have all the right elements in place in order to achieve a specific end result (i.e. 1 case beer + 1 nubile coed = unbelievable headache and a sudden engagement! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />That's my take on this, hope it didn't piss to many people off!<br /><br />P.S.  If you extend this argument about serving the wheel, you will have the exact same argument about predestiny vs. free will, which is the core argument between Christianity and the older religions (i.e. Greeks and Romans).


created: 2002-06-21 16:15:22
subject: <b>But of Course</b>
body:
this theory makes sense to a point.  Im surprised you didnt finish your theory up with the most convincing argument you could make to support your point.  The Great Lord wants to break the Wheel, not just defeat Rand.  Why would he want to break the Wheel? Because the Wheel always spins out the same set of circumstances and the Great Lord cannot assure victory since in another Age it will come back to bite him. <br /> <br />I give you a different argument to support choices by Ta'veren, tho.  Remember in TGH, that Rand and Hurin traverse a 'world in which the Trollocs won the great war'.  Remember there are variations or shades of the world that you can get to.  These are worlds where the Ta'veren have made other choices and the world shows the result...to me this means Ta'veren CAN make choices that affect the world.  The Wheel just assures that they get another chance in the next Age (remember Ishy saying to Rand in the very first prologue that Ive faced you and won a thousand times). The Wheel sets the boundaries - more of a template - but its not sentient and its neutral.<br /><br />Kudos to the Green Gaidin! Ive finally found someone who cant stand Egwene as much as me!  I personally hope her headaches become so harsh she resigns as Amyrlin and retreats to a farm in the first chapter of the next book and is never heard from again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-21 17:32:29
subject: <b>Good statements...</b>
body:
Seeing as I can't honestly call this a 'theory.' This is a good post for people to read, just so they don't forget what's right under their noses. Thank you for helping the stupid people at Wotmania realize that ta'veren are forced into what the Wheel wants them to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 19:48:31
subject: <b>Free will</b>
body:
This is one of the most confusing aspects about the series for me. When you get right down to it, do the characters have free will? On the surface I would have to say of course, but the problem comes in later. How can you have free will in a world of prophecy and fortelling? If someone knows what actions are going to happen, can those actions still be yours. The best example of this is Min's viewings when she sees that Logain is going to become a powerful individual she says something along the lines of &quot;If Logain were crawling on the ground and seemed about to expel his last breath she would bet all that she had on his miraculous recovery.&quot; So Logain is going to live and become powerful there is no doubt about this. What would happen if Min decided to kill him on the spot? Would something prevent this from happening a seeming accident? If this is the case I would argue that Min's free will is limited. A hundred other examples could be made. What about the prophecies of the dragon? Could Rand turn away from his destiny or would forces beyond his control always force him to accept the mantle. Fortelling: during the breaking of the world fortellings guide certain actions that have later become pivotal in the series. If these Aes Sedai know that the dragon is going to be reborn in the future to wield callandor, this is hinted at but not said outright, and callandor's being wielded is one of the principal signs of Rand's acendency, what of free will? Ishmael in his discussions with Rand both paradoxically denies and affirms Rand's right to free will. He suggests to him that all the events of the past that have lead to his birth on the slopes of dragonmount were guided were pre-ordained at the same time he tells him that he has choices kneel, become a puppet or die yes but still choices, Rand of course seems to have picked a fourth option. Sorry I know that I have started to ramble but I still haven't found the answer to whether or not the &quot;pattern&quot; or fate or whatever makes the choice or the characters do. Any thoughts?<br /><br />A book is a mirror when a monkey looks in no apostle can look out<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda


created: 2002-06-22 02:08:47
subject: <b>Comments and Spelling</b>
body:
Egwene, I am forced to assume from your obvious offense at my post that you found the information in this &quot;theory&quot; new and quite informative. Therefore, I must also assume that you are either stupid or are one of those evil 'skimmer.' You are most likely a lower intellectual as you have taken to cheap insults and frankly, idiotic statements. As to me insulting myself in the mirror that is only for practice, how else could I get so good?, and I will continue to do so with or without your permission. As for my spelling, if i mess up its because i do not type as fast as I think, however in sixth grade i came in second in my class spelling bee. So There. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Any comments I make are made and are all in the interest in forming new brain cells in the readers. It is obvious that many people who read/send in these theorys are quite lacking upstairs and these theories are shameful. Have you read them? My comments have been justified by other posts if you care to read down the list. I am, blessfully, not the only person with commen sense who comes to this site. For others who have read this sorry for wasting your time. If you want it back, go ask the Creator.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 08:58:37
subject: <b>MY THEROY. MY THOUGHTS</b>
body:
I am not a good speller, and my theroy only is correct bcause it took a friend a month to proof read and edit. (*Wink) Anyway, don't jump on my spelling I know am bad at it.  So, That said...  This was just the first half of a bigger theroy about the Creator actually being the wheel or in control of the wheel.  The comment that everyone is thinking about the wheel being nuetral was said by Moiraine.  By I say that in order for the wheel to repeat ages, and have a most things always be the same, but to have them all be slightly diffrent, would require an actuall intelligence.  No one in the books has ever said that the wheel does not.  In fact many quotes seem to take it for granted the the wheel has a will, a plan, and therefore must have an intelligence.  I submit the creator is the wheel, but that the creator is not as &quot;GOOD&quot; as all goodness.  The dragon is the Creator's champion, but not all the Rand has done has been that &quot;good&quot;.  Also, as a ta'veran he is a servent to the wheel.  So how can he serve the wheel and the creator at the same time without a conflict if the Creator is not the wheel.  We have not seen the creator take any dirrect intervention to stop the DO, but we have seen the wheel and the Ta'veren do alot to stop him/her/it.  also think of it this way.  If the creator created everything, and the creates the &quot;threads&quot; it weaves.  (birth, breaking the world) then doesn't that also make the wheel the creator?  How could the creator create anything if the wheel is in charge of it all.  I created this theroy as the first part of a more compleate theroy on the Creator = the wheel.  I am currios to here your thoughts.  Hopefully enough of you read this to give me some input as a start this new theroy.<br /><br />Last thought <br />Dragon is Ta'veren<br />Ta'veren fixs (saves) the pattren for the wheel<br />The pattren is the world.<br />The Dragon is the champion of the creator.<br />The dragon saves the world for the Creator (defeats the DO)<br />The Dragon is able to do both with no conflicts.<br />Doesn't that make the Creator the Wheel??<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 09:03:03
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
I just reread that post and that was bad english even for me.  I guess I was typing WAY to fast.  <br /><br />Sorry...<br /><br />Well if you have input on the wheel being or not being the creator let me know.  Sorry about that.<br /><br />YOUR SPELLING SUCKS BORDERLANDER!!!  BOOOO!!!  BOOOO!!!<br />I just wanted to be the first one to flame me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 15:15:44
subject: <b>If the creator equalled the wheel...</b>
body:
then why do people always talk of them as separate things, I seem to remember Verin, when talking about the worlds accessable by portal stone, saying that the one constant in all of them is the wheel, the creator, and the dark one. That suggests the wheel and the creator, although they may well be linked, are not the same. I agree that Rand likely couldn't serve both the wheel's and the creator's aims, but this would seem to me to reinforce the idea that the wheel isn't an intelligence, but rather a sort of cosmic 'machine', which causes ta'veren to serve it in a certain way more by 'automatic' or by its nature rather than because it thinks.<br /><br />Also, the creator doesn't intervene, but you're saying the wheel does, which doesn't seem to square.<br /><br />P.S. since some form of insult seems to be becoming obligatory in any post, most people who claim someone else is lacking in intelligence do so only because they can't come up with any real way to dismiss their arguments. I support Egwene the Skank on this, if you can't say anything intelligent and useful when discussing a theory, don't say anything at all<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 18:47:15
subject: <b>Whats the point</b>
body:
in being the Creator if you bind yourself as the wheel is bound.  Im more inclined to believe the Wheel is the &quot;playing field&quot; between the Great Lord and the Creator.  Its the template and rules that they must work within.  Think of two fellows playing a game of sentient chess where the pieces think for selves...a bishop is still a bishop whether he wants to be or not...he can move any of four directions from a square on the board...yet he is confined to move diagonally.  I liken this to Ta'Veren and the Wheel.  The Wheel is the chessboard and its rules for the pieces, but the pieces make choices of direction.  Now consider the Creator and Great Lord playing a thousand separate games at the same time and that explains the worlds in the portal stones (sometimes Ishy wins and such).  The pieces are still constrained by their basic rules (like Ta'Veren and prophecy) but they can still make choices which will be their downfall if they arent careful.  Anyway, my original point was that the Wheel is not the Creator...this also explains why the Great Lord wants to break the Wheel...the Wheel are the rules of their game and what better way to win for all time than to break the rules?<br /><br />Just my take!<br /><br />Thrasha


created: 2002-06-22 20:58:54
subject: <b>thrasha88 ...</b>
body:
Yeah, Egwene acts like a total bi... well, you know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I know that Jordan often uses amusing comparisons and thoughts to make us see how wrong our thoughts can be. For example: Rand, Mat and Perrin always think to themselves &quot;I wish (insert name of one of other 2 ta'varen here) was here. He understood women.&quot; And then we see that same thought from one of the others 10 pages later. Funny? Yes.<br /><br />What gets me, though, is how Egwene can berate the men for &quot;Thinking with the hair on their chests&quot;, then turn around and act EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Well, sans the hairy chest (hopefully lol).<br /><br />Strangley enough, my girlfriend came up as Egwene on the Personality test! We get along great! How weird is that! lol!<br /><br />How's THAT for off topic?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 00:58:32
subject: <b>Dangit!</b>
body:
GG and I agree on something! Who'd a thought?<br /><br />&quot;Egwene the Skank&quot; IS the best name on here. <br /><br />The theory? Oh, I don't know.  It sounds okay; it's something I haven't paid too much attention to.  All I have to add about Ishamael is I'm betting he's been ta'veren at some points, I'm just not sure about always.  For instance, his battle over Falme with Rand pretty much meant he couldn't be ta'veren at that point. Or shouldn't, at least.  He had so many other advantages over Rand, but...the Weave NEEDED Rand to be declared.  Since that meant Ishy sorta had to lose, then he likely wasn't ta'veren at that time.  But that's just a bit of messin' around.


created: 2002-06-23 02:04:19
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
I'm not sure where to find the qoute but it is something from EOTW.  It s Ishy speaking with Rand and he mentions how they are atraced to each other no matter what they try.  I wish I could find the actual qoute.  The passage in question is why I thought Ishy suggested that he also was strongly Taveren.  If anyone is aware of where to find passage let me know as i've lost the info.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 16:32:08
subject: <b>Green Gaidin...</b>
body:
So true!  RJ does a great job of being in character and staying there when he gives you POVs.  I always get a big chuckle, like you, when Rand, Perrin, or Mat always lament not having one of the others around to handle women!  I found Egwene amusing at first, but she even gets bossy and superior with her friends and that drives me nuts! Granted she is in the most powerful position in the world and she is...18 years old?  You would think she would remember some of her humility after being with the Aiel but no such luck! Anyway, nice off-topic!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-06-24 00:25:17
subject: <b>Negating Ta'Veren?</b>
body:
I have always percived Ta'verenness as an energy type thing acting upon the person that it is connected too.  In this sense Ishy's Ta'verenness could have been negated by Rands in TGH.  But seeing as how Ishy had such an advantage over Rand, why didn't he kill him if their Ta'verenness negated each other?  Well Rand's Ta'verenness is stronger.  We have no real inclination about how strong, but stronger then Ishy's, much stronger, more then likely.  If Ta'verennes is an energy, then some of Rand's would have still existed after negating Ishy's which is why Rand won.  This may or may not prove Ishy was/is a Ta'vren even in TGH but it might spark some minds.


created: 2002-06-24 08:55:23
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Glad my name is giving people so much amusement</b>

body:
I'm also glad to see that I'm not the only one who is all for posting positive blackboard comments.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> We should all get along here- we're all obviously variations on the same kind of nerd personality-type, seeing as how we all found our way to WoTmania...<br /><br />You've inspired a good deal of discussion with this, borderlander; don't let the negative ninnies keep you down.  Don't worry about your spelling, either... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 08:56:49
subject:
<b>Damn double-clicking.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Er, um, sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 10:47:43
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
In TSR, Perrin also commented that he believes Ta'veren are drawn to one another.  This makes further sense with Min's viewing of the fireflies.  When the 3 Emond Fielder's work together, they're stronger.<br /><br />This makes the issue with Ishy interesting, esp. in light of his presumed presence in Shadar Logath to help with Sammael.  Then, LTT discusses a 'third', which has been speculated to be Ishamael.  The Moridin/Ishamael-Rand connection is one that will be a major factor, I'm sure.


created: 2002-06-24 15:31:18
subject: <b>Why does one negate the other?</b>
body:
This is in reference to two statements.  <br /><br />First off, the argument of pre-destination vs. free-will.  I don't believe that one negates the other.  Mat, Rand, and Perrin are all forced on a short path, but they are still making their decision.  It's a common assumption that if you are destined for a certain fate, that's where you'll end up, but you still have to make the decisions to get there.  Rand, Mat and Perrin will always make the necessary decision because they were picked out by the wheel to make those decisions, and the circumstances will always be the same for them to choose properly.  <br />A perfect example of this is when Mat ends up with the Band.  He kept doing the right thing at the time, and the next thing he knows, he has an army following him around everywhere.  But when it comes right down to it, HE is the one who made that decision.  One does not negate the other.  Just because you are destined to make a decision, doesn't prevent you from making it.  This has been a favorite discussion of mine among my friends.  I love the paradox involved.<br /><br />Secondly, Ishy losing at Falme doesn't necessarily make him not ta'veren.  If the pattern wanted him to lose, than he was very ta'veren at the moment.  There's nothing that says a ta'veren has to win all the time, and that everything's gonna end happily for him.  <br />If you don't believe me, tell me if Lews Therin died happily at the end of the AoL.  I thought he was pretty upset about the way things turned out, wouldn't you.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Just because we want everything to work out for ta'veren doesn't mean it will.  So Ishy losing at Falme doesn't make him any less ta'veren, (If he actually is, which I don't think he is.  Of course, I don't really have any evidence one way or the other.)<br /><br />That concludes my mad ramblings<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-06-24 16:31:41
subject: <b>I think I will flame this theory a little.</b>
body:
I think I will flame this theory a little.  (I wasn't planning to flame but I have to protect my grouchy reputation).  <br /><br />Do we really need a theory that says water is wet?  RJ says it much more eloquently and in fewer words (especially with the many quotes by Loial starting in EotW).  Even if we did need theories pointing out the obvious would it hurt for it to be shorter?<br /><br />That being said, this theory did generate a number of responces--not all of which are lame.  I can't fault it entirely.<br /><br />Finally to all those people who think that people should write only positive responces...<br /><br />*THHHHHPPPPTTTTTTT!!!!!!!*<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 09:10:08
subject: <b>I, for one, am not opposed to constuctive negative responses...</b>
body:
I'm just flaming tired of people resorting to calling each other stupid without giving any real reason.  When someone makes a valid arguement against a theory, though, that's when the theory post gets interesting.  On the other hand, insulting someone else's IQ, reading comprehension, etc., just seems childish.  <br /><br />Everyone be happy! Or I'll visit you in your dreams, and give you something to whine about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 09:50:47
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
Criticism can be contradictory and in opposition, but still be positive and constructive.  Disagreement and the ensuing debates is pretty much one of the foundations of the purpose of this board.  <br /><br />It's when it degenerates into calling people 'poopy-heads' and 'blue meanies' that it becomes pointless. <br /><br />(Actually, Blue Meanies rocked, if anyone knows the reference....)


created: 2002-08-18 23:36:00
subject: <b>The Wheel is self balancing</b>
body:
Very good job. RJ HISOWNSELF says (in the interview at the end of Glimmers) that ta'veren are created to keep the pattern straight. He goes on to say that it is not conscious decision but more like a fuzzy logic loop that self corrects itself. In other words ta'veren are not born but created to serve the Wheel. My feeling is that once they have achieved the Wheel's goal, then their ta'veren-ity dies. Just as in the same way that fuzzy logic will create a sub routine that gets re-absorbed after it accomplishes it's goal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 03:34:20
subject: <b>The wheel is neither good or evil, it just is</b>
body:
The entire premise is interesting, but a little too southern baptist for my taste.<br />It's stated on several occasions throughout the series that the pattern isn't good or evil.  The whole base of your theory is that the pattern will be woven at the whim of the wheel.  If events are being stacked one way or the other it is implicitly good or evil.  If the whole rest of the series is stacked towards the shadow and Rand is victorious at the Last Battle, then the wheel has merely adjusted its weave to allow the light to prevail.  It is then safe to say that the WILL of the wheel is, without doubt, good.<br />Fate?<br />yes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Divine intervention?<br />no<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-04 19:48:01
subject: <b>mins viewings</b>
body:
the only thing that i have to say is that at some point in the books min says that there were two possible options about some person who i cant think of right now. i could be wrong but it also involed rand and was later on in the books


created: 2007-05-17 20:16:34
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
I find this theory very interesting, all of your points are proven strongly.<br /><br />I also agree that the wheel was using Ishamael for its own purposes when he sent Hawkwings armies across the Aryth Ocean.<br /><br />I have always wondered about the Kaetheron Cycle, how was it made? Fortelling perhaps? In any case one line in them is something like this:<br /><br />When the Wolf King carries the hammer, the last days are known<br />When the fox marries the raven, the battle horns are blown<br /><br />These are obvious references to Mat and Perrin, made at the tail end of the AoL. How would the raven have existed if Ishamael hadn't been as &quot;clever&quot; as he was and convinced Hawkwing to send them across the ocean?<br /><br /><br />Just some thoughts<br />


created: 2007-07-04 02:08:08
subject: <b>I agree-but not</b>
body:
I agree that Ta'veren are subject to control by the wheel, but in different ways. You seem to be forgetting that the wheel is portrayed as impartial, and it wouldn't care who won as long as it continues on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 09:46:28
subject: <b>The only other possibility I can think of...</b>
body:
Is that Vandene could have done it.  I don't think she did- I agree that these quotes all seem to suggest that Sareitha is our killer.  Just to play devil's advocate, though, IF Vandene was the killer, then it would explain why she keeps the novice-kinswomen around. If she supports their theory that it MUST be one of four Aes Sedai (and the list doesn't include her) then she can avoid suspicion by supporting them.  <br />I think I agree with the author here, though.  Just trying to spark some discussion. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 11:52:27
subject: <b>Are you me?</b>
body:
I just came to that conclusion not 2 days ago with that same evidence!!!!<br /><br />Egwene the skank. heh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 12:29:30
subject: <b>Some recommended reading</b>
body:
Anyone who is interested in exploring the mystery of Adeleas' death should check out this web page:<br /><br />http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.09_ispan-whodunnit.html<br /><br />The points mentioned in this theory are covered in the rather comprehensive article linked above.  I believe wotmania's own WOT FAQ also mentions these points.


created: 2002-06-24 14:06:01
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I'll admit that I didn't catch this before, so thanks for pointing this out. I agree that Sareitha is in all likelihood Adaleas' killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 16:01:41
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
I was just rereading WH and came across these quotes.  Merilille didn't arise my suspisions before she is relatively owned by the Sea Folk.  One thing that did bother me is that there were hardly any references to Careane.  She could either be too insignifigant to be taken note of, or she could be up to something.  Well, I'll wait for CoT for more quotes.  Thanks for the support, I just knew there'd be a few people out there that would think Vandene would do it.  Honestly, shes a twin sister.  Don't many twins feel each other's pain to a degree?


created: 2002-06-24 16:52:51
subject: <b>That's not enough to indict a Ham Sandwich!</b>
body:
<b>&quot;They reasoned out that the killer must be Merilille, Sareitha, or Careane. Good thinking on their part...&quot;<br />(page 195, hardback)</b><br /><br />I agree (although the list should include Vandene).  I do think that some of the reasons used to exlude other suspects has serious holes, though.  Tremalking might be big enough to have the herb that killed them.  (Since it is mostly used to get rid of headaches the Water Way wouldn't interfere).<br /><br /><b>&quot;I wasn't lying about that,&quot; Marillin said slowly. &quot;I really wouldn't get ten feet. But there's a woman already in the Palace. She can do what you need. It may take some time to make contact, though.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Just make sure it&#8217;s not too long a time, Marillin.&quot; So. One of the sisters in the Palace was Black Ajah, was she? She would have to be Aes Sedai, not just a Darkfriend, to do what Shiaine needed.<br />(page 248, hardback)</b><br /><br />This begs the question how does Marrilin know there is a BA in the Palace?  BA don't tell each other what they are up to.  The only likly explanation IMHO is that Marrillin is the third person who is spying on Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene in T'A'R.  She knows there is a BA in the palace because Elayne and Nynaeve think so and talk about it.  Therefore, there isn't strong proof at all that the killer is even BA.<br /><br /><b>The pieces of the puzzle begin to fall into place with the next quote, which gives new meaning to the previous quotes. This is from Winter's Heart, Chapter 11: Ideas of Importance. This is the scene in which Nynaeve and Talaan demonstrate the art of shielding another woman:<br /><br />&quot;Sareitha was supposed to be here, not her [Nynaeve], but the Brown had slipped out of the Palace leaving a note about an urgent errand in the city.&quot;<br />(page 257, hardback)</b><br /><br />This prooves nothing.  I know if I had to teach the Windfinders, I wouldn't mind it at all if I had another urgent task to undertake.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I think Adeleas' killer is still a mystery. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 23:08:15
subject: <b>Vandene</b>
body:
Sareitha running away from the Windfinders sounds like common sense not a BA plot. But it could be, it's just it sounds a bit obvious to me.<br /><br />Someone posted a theory a while ago about whether Adeleas was shielding Ispan on her own, due to her weak strength (can't make a gateway). This lead to the belief that Vandene and Adeleas were linked in shielding Ispan (in TPOD it said you can sleep whilst in a link and the link survived as long as you are not further than 50 paces away). This would mean that Vandene not being aware of Adeleas's death was BS<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-25 03:43:08
subject: <b>Spam's Right</b>
body:
I am afraid that although this theory shows some merit there is simply too much that is way too easily explained. If I was Sareith (dunno if spelling's right, I am above memorizing the spelling of simple Aes Sedai) I would definitely choose to go out on an &quot;urgent&quot; errand when I had to see the windfinders. She could be doing one of a hundred different and plausible things such as checking info from her eyes and ears, sending reports to Balwer, or just buying bread (hey, if your hungrey it urgent!.) However I do give the author credit for actually using evidence in the theory instead of saying &quot;hey, Adaleas was killed by someone for some reason!&quot; which seems to be all too common in these posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 04:01:41
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
When a reread the bit about Sareitha skiving Windfinder duty I immediately said &quot;Sareitha's the Darkfriend&quot;, but I didn't have the time/memory to put all the evidence together into a theory. I think with so many people starting rereads just after CoT was announced, a lot of us are getting to WH now and missing things we didn't see before (it's the newest book after all, and therefore probably the least reread). Well done! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Yes, to you skeptics, Sareitha <i>might</i> have been skiving just to buy bread, but this isn't real life, this is a book. Things like that don't generally get put in books for no reason, especially since the criminal has been narrowed down to four including her. I think it's probably significant.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 09:04:08
subject: <b>I'm with you, Eyeless</b>
body:
RJ torments us all too often with issues like Taimandred which are simply moot (despite common misuse, this word actually means that there is not enough evidence to argue either side more effectively than the other).  I think that maybe, just maybe, he decided to throw us a bone and put in enough clues for us to figure this one out.  Either that, or he's an incredibly evil man.  I haven't decided which. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 10:45:44
subject: <b>I like the theory, but I think the jury is still out...</b>
body:
mootness n. <br /><br />Usage Note: The adjective moot is originally a legal term going back to the mid-16th century. It derives from the noun moot, in its sense of a hypothetical case argued as an exercise by law students. Consequently, a moot question is one that is arguable or open to debate. But in the mid-19th century people also began to look at the hypothetical side of moot as its essential meaning, and they started to use the word to mean &#8220;of no significance or relevance.&#8221; Thus, a moot point, however debatable, is one that has no practical value. A number of critics have objected to this use, but 59 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the sentence The nominee himself chastised the White House for failing to do more to support him, but his concerns became moot when a number of Republicans announced that they, too, would oppose the nomination. When using moot one should be sure that the context makes clear which sense is meant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />Mephitic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong...<br />-Voltaire<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 19:17:33
subject: <b>I thought this theory sounded familiar</b>
body:
I reread Ioanna's theory - they are almost the same. (I am not saying you copied it, more than one person can arrive at the same theory) but maybe someone the writer or admin should check the categories for dublicates.  The interesting thing is so far the comments seem more agreeable this time. More people seemed to stick to the Vandene theory last time.  I forgot to check the percent that agree with the theory as a whole.  It will be interesting to check back in a week and compare the numbers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Teirza<br />&quot;Wherever you go, there you are.&quot; Buckaroo Banzai</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 20:41:22
subject: <b>Mootness</b>
body:
Who doesnt know the meaning to this word? It is definately a word that ranks high among the nouns of coolness, right up there with bunk.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 05:43:15
subject: <b>oh, well...</b>
body:
I think I am in love with the Vandene being the killer-theory, but if she isn't I'd go for this as second best.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 11:51:51
subject: <b>I ... agree with Scorp!!</b>
body:
Bunk is by far one of the greatest words in english.  I'm also a fan of 'brouhaha,' but it lacks the monosyllabic goodness of 'moot' and 'bunk.' <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 14:28:40
subject: <b>Yes!</b>
body:
And Sareitha is MOGHEDIEN.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-27 17:26:54
subject: <b>Hee hee...this is a trick one aint it?</b>
body:
I've lost hope with our FAQ, and indeed the rasfwrj one too. There is very little evidence that anyone could have done it. Sareitha's a good choice, but then again, so is Careane. I've always liked the Vandene theory, but that brings in more on why she would kill her sister, who might be Black and other stuff besides. Even Meralille and that maid of hers aren't out of the picture, and that still doesn't exclude everyone. We can try our best with logic, but that's all it is. I want hard proof, myself.<br /><br />And for those of you disputing Sareitha's motives on why she went on that trip, Jordan could be putting it in as a red herring or it might be coincidence. it's happen before many times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 17:30:36
subject: <b>*tricky*</b>
body:
That's what it is meant to say <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 12:55:50
subject: <b>Another Consideration</b>
body:
When Moiraine visited Vandene and Adeleas, she was attacked by a cloaked Draghkar.  Who did the cloaking?  Adeleas was served tea with Crisomthorn just before being slain.  Vandene served Moiraine tea just before the attack.  There is no indication that Moiraine ever drank however.  <br /><br />Just a little more grist for the mill.


created: 2002-09-16 13:38:06
subject: <b>That episode long ago</b>
body:
Shinnowa, I was just going to bring up the point you made about that episode log ago in The Great Hunt where we meet Vandene and Adeleas and where Moiraine is almost killed by a draghkar.  It also mentions how a draghkar couldn't have gotten close unless it was warded, implying the presence of Black Ajah.  Since we all know how Jordan loves to foreshadow, I have to think Vandene is Adeleas's killer and that she is Black Ajah.


created: 2002-09-20 13:58:00
subject: <b>Suckers!!!</b>
body:
Hmmmm... Who came up with this particular line of evidence you're all so quick to agree with? Vandene! The Killer! She's leading Elayne down a garden path, and you're trailing along in her wake!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-27 01:09:30
subject: <b>hmm..</b>
body:
I still think I believe the Vandene being the killer, but this one is good as well. And Talmanes, just because Adeleas isn't strong enough to make a gateway doesn't mean anything. Not very many Aes Sedai are, and you can be shielded by someone with considerably less strength than you.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-26 17:46:09
subject: <b>And CoT says...</b>
body:
Sareitha brightened when Mellar (a DF) entered the room, while the other two AS's scowled. As Mellar is known as a DF to the AS in the palace, but no one else knows this, why else would Sareitha smile at him and praise his (foolish) actions. She must be the DF, and hence very probably Adeleas' killer.


created: 2002-06-24 14:02:44
subject: <b>Hey... we finally get some new theories up...</b>
body:
And I actually like this one. OMG! And it's an actually theory. OMG again! Not stating something that's happened, not throwing out some idea that came from who-knows-where, but an ACTUAL THEORY. I like the idea that Flinn and Narishma would participate in the Black Tower battle. I like the fact that you mentioned Narishma wielding Callandor, seeing as I don't happen to think that Logain will. I also like the fact that this is the most structured and sensible theory I've seen in weeks. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 14:15:54
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
Good theory. Narishma's been connected to Callandor for a while now, and this would certainly be one place his possession of it could be very useful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 16:05:03
subject: <b>Yea</b>
body:
I've been wondering why their names were added to the traitor tree.  I couldn't find any quotes. So I just figured Taim and friends are a bunch of dirty Darkfriends.


created: 2002-06-24 17:04:51
subject: <b>Personally I hope...</b>
body:
As far as the theory it is as good as any.  I will mention though, that I don't think that Narishima will return alone.  Alanna mentioned to Rand that the Asha'man were afraid to return to the BT.  We do have to allow for the fact that Alanna's statement wasn't that direct and could be a classic AS twisting of the truth.  (Cadsuane does think to herself that she blackmailed the Asha'man as well.)<br /><br />On the other hand, I do think that Flinn and Narishima are quite aware that they would probably be called traitors.<br /><br />On a note unrelated to the theory.  Personally, I hope that Narishima eventually becomes the leader of the male AS while Logain becomes the leader of the male Asha'man.  (Egwene will be leader of all AS and some one else (Gabrelle?) will become leader of female Ashaman.)  I have no evidence to support this (or else I would propose my own theory).  I only think it is a cool plot twist that allows the 'servants to balance the guardians' while still having significant Saidin/Saidar cooperation.<br /><br />Thanks for posting this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 17:06:03
subject: <b>I like it too...</b>
body:
As was stated above, this theory has a lot of merit. One of the reasons for Taim putting their names on the traitors list. They are too close to Rand and in Taim's view that makes them dangerous. Also, Taim undoubtably knows about Narishma and Callandor. Roichard and his cronies couldn't have left that litle tidbit out any reports the M'heal would get. That by itself made Narishma much too dangerous. In addition, they couldn't single anyone of Rand's Ashaman out so Taim put them all on the list.<br /><br />Now about Narishma and Callandor, does he still have it? It's been awhile since I last read WH. After Rand almost over dosed on the One Power through Callandor, fighting the Seanchan, what happened to it? Did they put it back into the Stone or hide it someplace else and do you think that Rand would change the traps and alarms on it? <br /><br />To finish, I have to agree that Finn and Narishma will almost have to be involved in the Black Tower power struggle. Logain just doesn't have enough power or experience, not to mention numbers on his side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 17:20:58
subject: <b>Narishma was using it...</b>
body:
At the end of WH. He used it in one of the linked circles that was protecting Rand and Nynaeve. So yeah, as of the end of WH, Narishma still has it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 17:52:23
subject: <b>Thanks Lews...</b>
body:
That's right! I really need to reread WH. How could I FORGET THAT! Thank's again. I guess that would give Narishma access, but do you think that Rand will let him keep it. Rand is kinda paranoid about powerful sa'angreal, and who can blame him. Well if any male channeler has proved themself to Rand, it would have to be Flinn and especially Narishma.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 18:37:58
subject: <b>I agree and...</b>
body:
something else that Narishma and Flinn could (and need) to do is be the bridge between Rand and Logain.  As we speak, RJ has given no indication that Logain knows that Rand is not telling Taim what to do - this could make Logain think that he isnt fighting for Rand so much as fighting for his own life and the light...he doesnt know Rand and Taim are enemies...Narishma and Flinn could bridge that gap.  Same the other way, Rand has no idea that Logain and Taim are shaping up for a conflict.  When he finds out, he might send Narishma and Flinn to Logain to pledge his support...as of now tho, Rand has no idea he has potential allies in Logain's faction - he only has Min's viewings.<br /><br />My theory is that Logain will eventually be head of the Asha'man (who will become Male Aes Sedai...I dont see two separate groups here) and that Narishma will become the first of the new Companions.  We can see them building already...Perrin, Mat, Narishma, Aram, Brigitte, Bashere, Lan, Noal, and others...they will come together to represent the Companions with Narishma at their head.  <br /><br />Sorry about posting a theory in response to a theory....it seemed relevant tho.


created: 2002-06-24 19:20:34
subject: <b>I hate Fain</b>
body:
I agree with Flinn and Narishma having a big part in the upcoming Black Tower conflict but I doubt Rand has come to trust even Narishma enough to send him off with Callandor. I Realize Narishma already used it in battle but it was in relative close proximity to Rand and the Forsaken and I doubt Narishma would have had the stupidity to make a run for it with his Aes Sedai and Callandor when their are the Forsaken on one side and the likes of Cadusuane and Alivia on the other.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> The founder of incoherent and poorly written responses <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-24 20:23:33
subject: <b>Rand trusts Narishma ....</b>
body:
...although he doesn't like it.  There's a line somewhere from Rand's POV saying &quot;he HAD to trust him [Narishma]&quot; because of the whole Callandor thing.  Flinn and Narishma are the only Asha'man Rand trusts, but he's so unused to trusting people that he doesn't really act like it. <br /><br />Speaking of trust, the only AS Rand trusts are Nynaeve and Moiraine.  If Moiraine returned, she could have a tremendous impact on the whole Cadsuane/Rand plotline.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 22:16:49
subject: <b>When did I show up?</b>
body:
Was that intended for me? If so, the answer is: very recently. I've been registered for at most two weeks. But I've been visiting this site for a few months (before I registered.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Jahar Narishma... the walking weapon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Forever hating AoC scum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> May my sword remain at the throat of idiots like the AoC <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> My path is that of evil... evil is my path. Watch my footsteps, do not follow, death is the price <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 22:52:57
subject: <b>Callandor</b>
body:
Good theory all around. The only arguement I have is over whether Narishma will use Callandor to help the fight. Sure he's Rand's buddy, but he trusts NO ONE, and he wouldn't give away Callandor unless he had to (like at the cleansing). He would have to be aware of the conflict and would have to support Logain (and we're not exactly sure how he stands on Logain), and then he would have to give the sword back to Narishma. It is possible, but don't accept it as a given.


created: 2002-06-24 22:59:28
subject: <b>Cads</b>
body:
Cadsuane teaching ALL the Ashaman a lesson.<br />Beldeine bonding an Ashaman as a Warder.<br />I don't think they can do this from Cairhein. So there all going to visit the BT and Rand's going to regain authority over Taim and gloat in the cleansing of saidin.<br /><br />The dusk-jacket says something about Andor falling to the Shadow and the Dragon Reborn with it. And Rand taking a risk or something like that.<br />


created: 2002-06-24 23:58:25
subject: <b>Cads lesson</b>
body:
First of all here is the quote from the dust jacket.<br /><br />&quot;In Andor, Elayne Trakand fights for the Lion Throne that is hers by right, but enemies and Darkfriends surround her, plotting her destruction. If she fails, Andor may fall to the Shadow, and the Dragon Reborn with it.&quot; <br /><br />&quot;Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn himself, has cleansed the Dark One's taint from the male half of the True Source, and everything has changed. Yet nothing has, for only men who can channel believe that saidin is clean again, and a man who can channel is still hated and feared - even one prophesied to save the world. Now Rand must gamble again, with himself at stake, and he cannot be sure which of his allies are really enemies.&quot;<br /><br />As to Cadsuanes lesson, I think that it is two fold. The first part has already been taught to some degree, and that is the joining of men and women into a circle. The second and probably far more important lesson, is that of humanity. Or should I say humility? Basically all Asha'man have been made into weapons, weapons don't feel, they either attack or don't. All the Asha'man have to learn how to feel and have compasion, including Rand. Soreilia even says that &quot;he [Rand] has to learn to laugh and cry again, or the world will pay the price&quot; (forgive the possible misquote, I don't have my books with me<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />). I really think that a bunch of LETHAL and non-feeling automatons with access to the One Power is a really scarry thought. They have to learn to care not just react and take orders. Or something like that...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 01:07:20
subject: <b>No no. Not you AJN</b>
body:
the OTHER Tam alThor.<br /><br />Jabronie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-25 04:08:19
subject: <b>*Grumble*</b>
body:
First off, this theory has a credence level of 0 due to complete lack of any evidence, but apparently, some like it like that.<br /><br />Second, Narishma may have been in posession of Callandor at the end of Winters Heart but I bet Rand would (try?) turn him into a cinder if he ever felt him using it without Rand's direct order and knowledge. Callandor was a loan, not a gift, and only for the duration of the cleansing. Anyone who thinks the Rand trusts Narishma enough to give it to him is a fool. Rand wouldnt give an angreal to ANY male channeler he knows unless it was absolutely necessary. However, now that the taint is gone he may become more lenient. HA HA. I ammuse myself sometimes.<br /><br />Thirdly, I dont think Narishma and Flinn will have large parts in the battle of the Black Tower. I think the largest part they will have is to do a little scouting, report to Rand who will fix it rather easily. or messily depends on his mood. As to their names on the deserters roster that is somewhat of a mystery since Taims motives are foggy at best. However, at the time of the attack on Rand's life by Osan'gar and his little party Rand was deeply suspicious of them and most likely gave Taim no information on their status and it was assumed they deserted. By being bonded to Aes Sedai they were able to show Rand they were still trustworthy. (What Darkfriend would go to such a length, he would have to be suicidal, and only the gray men are so brave.)<br /><br />However the theory is, technically, plausible and does have some semblance of an actually theory and so I will simply sit here and grumble and wait for something truely interesting to arrive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 05:59:03
subject: <b>Actually,</b>
body:
the word is spelled 'jabroni.' Trust me on this. I know my Rock words and quotes well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Jahar Narishma... the walking weapon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Forever hating AoC scum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> May my sword remain at the throat of idiots like the AoC <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> My path is that of evil... evil is my path. Watch my footsteps, do not follow, death is the price <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 08:58:26
subject: <b>Did I read that wrong?</b>
body:
Was Scorp's comment almost positive?  I don't believe it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just to address the Callandor issue, I've been figuring that Narishma would hang on to it, simply because I'm not sure if Rand's going to use it again.  I know that Rand's ego causes him to do things that he shouldn't, but I think that he may have learned his lesson when he nuked his own people the last time he used it.  I think that now that the Asha'man have friendly Aes Sedai to work with, they'll start using Callandor only while they're linked with women.  It seemed to work nicely at the Saidin cleansing, and it definitely seemed to cut down on the 'friendly-fire losses.'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 10:00:28
subject: <b>Interesting implications</b>
body:
...regarding Narishma and Flinn being on the 'Traitor Tree'.<br /><br />After all, weren't the Asha'man to, essentially, serve Rand?? He was the one who gave the amnesty, and it is his power that makes it stick. <br /><br />So...if Narishma and Flinn are gone because they are directly serving Rand, that's GOTTA be something to make other Asha'man think. Who precisely were they betraying?  And THAT, friends, is almost certainly the set-up of the breaking of the Black Tower (which is inevitable, y'know).<br /><br />&quot;You're accused of being traitors to the service of the Dragon Reborn!  What were you doing that caused you not to be here??&quot;<br /><br />&quot;We were serving the Dragon Reborn directly.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;TRAITORS!&quot;<br /><br />Uh...who knows.  RJ is certainly capable of having mass amounts of people not able to make the tiniest of intuitive leaps.


created: 2002-06-25 12:32:50
subject: <b>About Callandor-Cadsuane has it!</b>
body:
Some people here seem to feel that Narishma has Callandor.  In fact we know that Cadsuane has it.  At the end of WH we have a PoV from Cadsuane where she thinks to herself that Callandor and the male access key has been packed away. <br /><br />Another point is that Narishma didn't wield Callandor.  Elza (a BA) did!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 17:14:46
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
What would be interesting would be if Flinn Narishma and Rand learn this form of bonding Logain displayed.  Could make for some interesting scenes.


created: 2002-06-25 17:21:07
subject: <b>Risk Callandor?</b>
body:
Narishma seems to be the owner/wielder of Callandor.... <br />BUT! Would they (light) risk losing Callandor to the Dark by sending it back to the black tower?<br /><br />they might go back, but it would be crazy to take such a powerful sa'angreal into what is becoming a dodgier place by the chapter<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toon Army:- The Creators choice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = Sir Bobby Robson IS the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 20:38:15
subject: <b>Angreal in the Black Tower? Dont make us laugh.</b>
body:
Rand keeps all of his angrealish items in one of two places: in plain sight with some nasty traps, like Callandor in the stone, but most are hidden away in places almost impossible to find and invisible due to inverted weaves. Such as the access keys in Rhuidean and Callandor during his stay in that channelless city south of Andor whose name escapes me at the moment and im too lazy to go check. Please dont post right below this the name, ill remember as soon as I hit submit. Rand trusts no one. He doesnt store angreal in any place they could be found.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 14:26:21
subject: <b>Rand will have to play a part too</b>
body:
He doesn't even know that Flinn and Narishma were listed as deserters.  When he finds out, I imagine he'll be pissed off at Taim.  His entire reason for creating the Black Tower was to train an army of Asha'man, and thus far, Flinn and Narishma have proved to be good and loyal soldiers to Rand.  They've battled Forsaken and earned their status.  So when Rand finds out that they were kicked out of the Black Tower, he'll probably go in there himself and kick some ass.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-02 03:07:24
subject: <b>Why F + N were listed</b>
body:
First, I don't think the Black Tower regards any of the 7 listed as traitors. They are only known as deserters, as in Snow, Welyn Kajima says 'and he's posted new deserters on the board'.  So F + N might not get immediately executed when they return to the BT. I think all deserters had to be hunted down; they've never had deserters come back on their own.<br />As to why they were listed, obviously, Taim's four were listed because Taim couldn't have them linking the attack to himself. The other three were probably listed only because they were at the palace during the attack, and could have identified the assailants. I don't think that anyone in the BT knows of the attack on Rand - the best they have are most likely sketchy rumors with little credibility.


created: 2002-10-10 12:40:02
subject: <b>Flinn and Narishma as deserters</b>
body:
I just read this last night (rereading WH.) Rand does know that Flinn and Narishma are considered deserters, it was reported to him as he's getting ready to leave Cairhien for Far Madding. They know it too, because he told them. He told them to lay low, maintaining the mystery of his location and plans. The cleansing of the source put an end to that, opening them up for aiding in the BT revolution (or not). <br /><br />Now. Pure supposition time. But fairly minor. <br /><br />Narishma and Flinn were hanging out in Caihrien prior to the cleansing, I think, and they might be expected to return there. Isn't Logain on his way there as we speak? Maybe that'll be how they hook up.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 05:30:41
subject: <b>I've just an objection</b>
body:
Jahar Narishma is not a full Asha'man, but a Dedicated.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I always thought Min has brown eyes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 00:11:30
subject: <b>Rand in Black Tower Power Struggle</b>
body:
I think that by now Rand has a very good idea on who ordered the renegade ashaman. Now that his business with the cleansing of saidin is done i'd like to think that he'll take care of business at the black tower. I think Rand will play a more active role in the power struggle in the Black tower. And since he has the Choedan Kal....


created: 2003-01-29 06:04:14
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
Rand now knows about things from Logain, who DEMANDED! him to have a close eye on that! And certainly Narishma and Damer will rather join Logains side - Taim declared them deserteurs and Logain plainly is on Rand's side, for all Rand's mistaking Logain glory coming from Logain still believing he is the DR himself... Ahgh! Sometimes Rand really is too full of himself


created: 2003-08-19 13:11:52
subject: <b>I've read the tenth book.</b>
body:
Yo. Just wanted to state that Narishma no longer holds Callandor. Personally, I think Rand trusts him with it, but isn't aware of the need for it in the Black Tower battle (or assasination, if you chose to believe that Taim has not completely brainwashed his pupils.) If Logain and co. find Narishma and Flinn before the fight, however, Rand may lend them Callandor. Then again, they would have to tell Rand about the impending battle, and Rand would want to fight in it (duty above danger, and all that.) Just don't know. Hey, it's a really good theory, though. Keep writing. It's good for you.<br /><br />By the way, would someone tell the other Batosai he spelled his own name wrong? Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-24 23:12:27
subject: <b>I like this</b>
body:
Rand doesn't really need Callandor anymore, except as a symbol, not now that he has the male Choedan Kal. He wouldn't give it to Narishma, but he would let him use it if necessary. Jahar, and- to me- especially Damer have been built up too much to not play another role near the end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 18:51:16
subject: <b>yes...</b>
body:
Yes... well... The main problem with this theory is that you are taking too literally something that is being put metaphorically.  Obviously, the Dark One can't END time, but he will put an end to the Wheel of Time, and its circular nature, which, in &quot;randland&quot;, IS time.  If the Dark One wins, well, maybe time itself won't exactly end, but then again, given the originality of the concept of time in this series, and the fact that we haven't exactly seen the true power of the Dark One yet, saying what IS and ISN'T possible for him to do when he is free is somewhat, shall we say, premature.  And, as always, remember, this IS a fantasy story, not a book on new astrophysics and the space time continuem.


created: 2002-06-25 19:10:50
subject: <b>That was silly</b>
body:
Not meant to insult the author, but that was silly. Not only did it hold very little meaning to it, but there is a problem:<br />Why would DO want to end time in the first place? The author said &quot;Many people think that if the DO wins, he will actually end time itself and remake the world anew in his own image.&quot; Assuming he meant what he said, the DO wants to end the current time and remake a new world and therefore a new time. Therefore time is not ended, merely restarted. And that upsets the whole rest of the thing.


created: 2002-06-25 19:23:11
subject: <b>Okay....</b>
body:
threw me a bit with the dualism...that's something else (soul/body distinction), but...<br /><br />one of my pet back-burner thoughts is that the Dark One is actually something of an agent or an aspect of the Creator.<br /><br />We've all speculated that RJ messes around with various philosophies, and we see a number of examples of characters having, literally, a darker half (or 'twin', or aspect). <br /><br />Plus, there are conflicting Evil Powers in the world.  perhaps some of the evil arises simply out of the fallacy of humans (Aridhol).  Now...if we consider it in this light, perhaps 'Breaking the Wheel of Time' means breaking out of a cycle of non-growth.  For instance, Lucifer's fall from heaven would be similar.  Once that happened, all sorts of other things happened.  A Wheel represents a cycle which always has a finite progression.  If a cycle changes to a linear progression, that opens up a world of possibilities (literally, in this case).<br /><br />Okay, I'm -seriously- cutting short-shrift of the concepts here, but perhaps how humans deal with &quot;The Dark One&quot; is part of their potential growth.  Spirit Journeys in other myths often began with an obstacle entity that must be overcome before the journey could be continued. <br /><br />Perhaps Rand, in freeing the Dark One in order to deal with him (as mentioned in a few other theories, including one of mine), is setting up the confrontation where people must make a paradigm decision regarding their evolution, in Westland.<br /><br />Okay, okay.  This is wildly speculative.  All I'm doing is playing around with the philisophical implications.  I don't particularly believe any of this, just commenting that there's basis for precedent in philosophical/mythological issues, with which many of us feel Jordan dabbles.


created: 2002-06-25 20:04:53
subject: <b>You know why else the DO won't end time?</b>
body:
Rand is going to win <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 20:29:17
subject: <b>Time is not Everlasting</b>
body:
&quot;All that the DO wants to do is to break the cyclical nature of time&quot;<br /><br />This is basically the goal of the Dark One. He doesnt want to end time, he is here to break the Wheel of Time. As mentioned by Fel, the Ages are basically installments, or battles if you will, in a never ending war of good verus evil. If evil (Shai'tan) wins it will break the wheel and thus no more ages. Time will continue, but no one will be reborn and the Dark One will rule over all. No where does it say the Dark One will break/destroy/end time. He just wants to stop the Ages. <br /><br />It IS possible to disrupt Time (the pattern) however. Some fool submitted a theory that Rand would seal the Dark One by Balefiring Lanfear back into the Age of Legends. By ripping out this thread of the pattern that EVERY single thread is based on since that time the pattern would dissolve completely. People would no longer exist who had the world would be unbroken. The threads would be gone and in their place a new one would appear. But, the damage would be done. If the Dark One's prison was never opened, why would Rand balefire Lanfear? Would Rand have existed to even kill her in the first place? It creates a paradox and thus Time itself would be destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 20:33:14
subject: <b>Who ever said he would?</b>
body:
He never decided that he would literally end time.  Metaphorically, ending time is like ending an age.  He &quot;ends&quot; a time of peace, thus he ended time.<br /><br />Your argument is actually better applied to religious debate.  I don't want to get into that on a WoT blackboard, but the idea that beginnings and endings are defined by time and therefore cannot exist without a time before or after them, and therefore time is eternal, is an atheist's argument against God's existence (who, according to most mythologies, created time).<br /><br />Anyway, to be the Devil's Advocate and pretend your theory makes sense (no offense) I will be a double advocate and say that Total Annihilation would not end time.  It would end it's measure, but not time itself.  If you broke a ruler, space would not warp to random dimensions in the immediate vicinity.  You would still be approximately 1.8 metres tall, if you are an average male.  Destroying change, time's ruler, would not change time (that's actually a fundamental paradox.  The end of change cannot, by definition, change the nature of time).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 21:14:35
subject: <b>Not the end of change</b>
body:
I thought that this theory actually brought up the point that there is now change possible, not that there was an end to change.<br />Think about the nature of the wheel- everything gets repeated (ad infinitum), but if the wheel gets broken, it becomes linear instead and CAN change. This would make it possible for the DO to remake the world in his own image, rather than having it controlled (ie repeated) by the wheel.<br /><br />PS: I don't think the theory is stupid at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 01:36:34
subject: <b>but..</b>
body:
isnt the dark one supposed to be 'outside' of time? the dark one can enter the wheel, but he exists outside the wheel as well. besides, the dark one will never win anyway, thanks to Rand, so i see any point in worrying about what will not happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 14:05:32
subject: <b>Epistology is not Philosophy</b>
body:
You cannot use the limits of our language as a proof that time is unendable.  Certainly we have no language to describe an &quot;end&quot; to time or a state in which time does not exist; but lack of vocabulary is not a philosophical argument.  Furthermore, simply because we -- temporal creatures -- do not possess the faculties to imagine a timeless states does not prove anything either.  I'm not saying the Dark One wants to end time, I agree with most of the above statements, but -- as a creature outside of time -- he certainly could.


created: 2002-06-26 15:35:45
subject: <b>blown away</b>
body:
people like u blow me away. its just a FANTASY book series. Robert Jordan is not trying to teach us physics, he's just writing a FANTASY book series. there's no need to get intilectual about it. just have fun reading the books.


created: 2002-06-27 08:29:53
subject: <b>Wow...uhm, well...uh. In my own defense,</b>
body:
In my own defense, I must say a few things. <br /><br />1) I know it's just a fantasy series. But when something presents itself as an object of interesting thought, I take advantage of it. Of course I know that none of this has any bearing on the real world.<br /><br />2) About the vocabulary counter-argument. The one who said that is short-sighted. I'm sorry, but it's true. No, we don't have vocabulary for an end of time or a state without time, and yes, I used that to my advantage, but that is not the point. The fact that we don't have the vocabulary for it is a function of the nature of impossibility. And the fact that there is no vocabulary for it was not my argument.<br /><br />3) In reference to those who said &quot;nobody ever said the DO was going to end time:&quot; well, obviously, somebody did, and that's why I wrote my theory. I never thought he was going to--this was a unilateral theory. <br /><br />4) To everybody think of how people might reply to your arguments before you say them--it'll save you emparassment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 12:41:40
subject: <b>I reread your post</b>
body:
I went back based on your above post and reread your theory.  Your right, you did have one argument that was not based upon the precise meaning of &quot;end&quot; etc...<br /><br />&quot;otherwise time would continue on simply because of the Cartesian necessity of thought-based self-awareness of existence&quot;<br /><br />This is the kind of sentence most people's eyes glaze over at, their ears automatically shut off and they assume that whatever you said during that barrage of BS was true.  Essentially what you are saying here is that thought is linear, that thought is necessary for reality/existence, so in order for the Dark One to exist he would think, thus introducing linearity, and thus time.<br /><br />Again you project temporal concepts upon an intemporal being.  The Dark One is (explicitly) beyond time, and is not limited to linear thinking.  Just because you (and I don't pretend to either) cannot visualize or understand non-linear thinking is no argument for its inability to exist.  Just as a 2-dimensional being would have no way to visualize a 3-dimensional being but could not (obviously) take that as a proof that no 3-dimensional beings can exist.<br /><br />Sorry for the long post; but the madness must stop!


created: 2002-06-27 13:32:04
subject: <b>The DO is not outside of the reach of time...or the other way around:</b>
body:
He can't be. Maybe <i>I'm</i> being close-minded, but it seems to me that if he existed &quot;outside&quot; of time, then he couldn't really <i>do</i> anything in the world (which is affected by time). I don't claim to be right--I was just stating what I thought how I thought it. Anyhoo...see my point?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 15:44:58
subject: <b>for those of us not worried about being &quot;intilectal&quot;</b>
body:
Thank you very much for the above posted theory. Far to often people who enjoy philosophical discussion are limited by the emotionally involved nature of &quot;real life problems,&quot; and I for one appreciate the opportunity to avoid such entanglements and deal with a theory on a purely intellectual level.<br /><br />    I do have a couple questions for you, however. First, I believe that it is in the Eye of the World that it is mentioned that sometimes the Dragon has been turned and become an angent of the Dark One. If we are to accept this postulate that previously, the Dark One has been victorious in the Last Battle, that his goals would not have changed significantly since said victories? <br /><br />   This also brings up the question of the Creator and his role in this conflict. If it takes the Dark One to break the wheel, making time linear and not a cycle, wouldn't the Creator by binding him again recreate the world in a cyclical format. <br /><br />   Of course this breaking and fixing is just as much a cycle as anything in the WoT series, but it also brings up the fact that the Dark One was &quot;imprisoned at the moment of Creation&quot; or some such thing. Are we then to assume that the Creator recreates the world repeatedly, sealing the Dark One in again, and returning the Wheel to an unbroken state?  <br /><br />   Another thing: the Dark One might not be a temporal being but his actions, his &quot;hand in the world&quot; would have to become so, wouldn't it? Perhaps his entry into the world as a nontemporal being is what breaks the Wheel...


created: 2002-06-27 16:11:34
subject: <b>Perhaps I can clarify my view</b>
body:
I've always found it easier to imagine the macro in a micro model.  Let's consider time to be a dimension (as is postulated in physics).  We are below that dimension, others are outside of it.  Now let's take that model, which we can't visualize, and reduce it to something we can: the 2nd and 3rd dimension.  We are 3-dimensional creatures (though some might argue fourth because we have memory) and we can see a 2-dimensional world.  The 2-dimensional creatures (assuming there are some) cannot normally see us. <br /><br />Now imagine that we enter their plane of existence, say we poke a finger through their 2d world.  They would see this entry in 2-dimensions, as a little round flesh-colored circle that appears abruptly and grows larger.  (One could also argue that they'd only see a line since they lack the 3rd dimension to see it from the side, but the argument is the same).<br /><br />Likewise, the Dark One's (or the Creator's) actions in our world are percieved as 3-dimensional, temporal actions though they may not actually be limited to such in origin.  I believe that is the best explanation I can give, and I'll let my case rest.


created: 2002-06-28 08:32:34
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Your 3D/2D model is interesting...but I'm completely uncertain as to whether I agree with it. Um...I think I do. Ah hell--it was just a theory! Like the Beatles said, &quot;let it be.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 10:32:25
subject: <b>A Mistake, Somewhere...</b>
body:
&quot;otherwise time would continue on simply because of the Cartesian necessity of thought-based self-awareness of existence&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure who wrote this originally (or what the ultimate reference was), but it's incorrect.<br /><br />It's the other way around -- Descartes accepted his ability to think and percieve as RECOGNITION of the fact of his existence; not fundamental to it.  The extension is that he could prove existence (his own) by recognizing that he was engaging in a process, namely, thought.  But his existence must be mirrored by the existence of other elements.  Inanimate and/or non-sentient objects do not and cannot think, but that does not mean they definitively do not exist. (His example was God and a Great Deceiver)<br /><br />Self-awareness is not necessarily required for existence. <br /><br />As this pertains to the series, there are other key elements that are not being invoked, namely the frequent references to 'the Dream' and 'other realities'.  As someone said, it's a bit more fun to play with this in a false environment, where it's purely theoretical. <br /><br />There are very few elements in the series which are pervasive throughout all the shown (possibly potential) realities:  1. The Creator, 2. The Dark One, 3. The Wheel and Tapestry of Time and 4. The Dragon. <br /><br />This brings up yet again just what IS &quot;The Dragon&quot;?  Is it an archetype?  Or is it merely an aspect or avatar of one of these other elements?  I've wondered if The Dragon -- perhaps along with the Dark One -- is an agent of the Creator; a necessary element to account for randomness and chance.  But that's something else altogether....


created: 2002-06-28 11:22:20
subject: <b>I like this argument</b>
body:
I don't know if I agree with the theory, because I don't think the DO is trying to end time, just change it.  I do love to see arguments about philosophy, even if it is in a fictional world.  The moment the DO takes a hand in the world, his actions would have to follow the rules of the world, otherwise there would be chaos, and this world would cease to exist.  (I'm not talking about the chaos a ta'veren makes either, as these still follow the inherit laws of the world.)  Perhaps if the DO was able to influence Randland on his own dimensional level, it would constitute a victory for him, eh?  <br /><br />Just me two cents.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!!


created: 2002-06-28 12:37:23
subject: <b>Good Clarification</b>
body:
Thanks Vashti,<br /><br />I'm only an amateur philosopher and was completely unaware of what Descartes actually said.  I have nothing more to say, only that I really appreciate your theory DelphianAudi because it gave us all to debate a little philosophy in the safe environment of WOT.


created: 2002-06-28 13:53:15
subject: <b>Cogito Ergo Sum</b>
body:
&quot;I think, therefore I am&quot;<br /><br />It's interesting that in serious philosophy, this is widely regarded as a poor translation.  Descartes' point was that he had to doubt everything, since he knew for certain he was deceived in SOME things.  Basically, if you can't trust everything, you must distrust anything.  Your senses lie to you.  A house you see in the distance appears tiny -- but the size of your thumbnail, but that doesn't mean it IS tiny, it only seems that way.  Thus, you are deceived. <br /><br />Descartes even tried for sensory deprivation (he cleaned out a stove and climbed inside).  So...if you take away all sensory input, what do you have?  Well, the very act of thinking about that was established in its exercise.  So thus, the only thing he could initially trust was that he was capable of thought.  He was (a more accurate translation) a &quot;Thinking thing.&quot;  And since he could think, that established (to him), that he did, indeed exist.   So, while people typically see, &quot;I think, therefore I am&quot; and believe that the ability to think was fundamental to existence, it actually was merely a symptom that established the certitude of his existence.  <br /><br />I like Descartes :-)  A lot of stuff has ultimately proven to be built on shaky premises, his thought process and arguments are things of beauty. He is much more ethically honest than almost any other philosopher I know. <br /><br />Sorry for the diversion. To bring it full circle, it's similar to Rand doubting everything, not accepting what he's told at face value.


created: 2002-07-01 08:46:50
subject: <b>I think you've got it a little sideways...</b>
body:
What Descartes was trying to say with &quot;I think, therefore I am,&quot; was that his own existence was the only thing that he could be certain was true. It was also the only thing he could never be decieved in. (I'm warning you, this is going to get a little loopy.)<br /><br />If you're aware that you exist because you think, it doesn't mean that you do exist because you think--just that you're aware of it. <br /><br />The only thing Descartes ends up meaning by that famous quote is that it is the awareness of being aware that can never be taken from us. What he means is that he (or you, or I) could <i>NEVER</i> be convinced that he did not exist. The argument goes like this:<br /><br />1) To be convinced of anything, one must think.<br />2) To think, one must be aware.<br />3) To be aware, one must <i>be</i>--one must exist.<br />--------------------------------------------------<br />Conclusion: Therefore, one cannot be convinced that he does not exist.<br /><br />It's a pretty simple argument, but being a 17th century French philosopher, Descart felt that he needed to make it rather complicated.<br /><br />Now, as to how I employed that in my theory...all I meant is that in order for the DO to <i>do</i> anything, he must be aware of doing it. Therefore he must exist. Now, couple that with my other idea, which is that, in order for the DO to affect the world of time, he himself must--at least temporarily--be affected by time.<br /><br />Now, squish that through a funnel, and all you get is that I was trying to say that to end time, the DO would have to end himself too. That's all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And for those of you who were appreciative of my theory--whether or not you agreed with it--you're welcome. It was my pleasure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 15:43:49
subject: <b>Wow. Headache. Major headache.</b>
body:
I do not like intelligent theories. Well, ok, I don't mind intelligent ones... just don't break off into physics or genetics or mythology. You lost me really quick with this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 18:35:11
subject: <b>Hrmmm..</b>
body:
As stated such, you're correct -- sorta.  He DID go on to use that to establish the existence of God, but that was, I believe, some convoluted pandering to the dominance of the Church (mind you, I'm a Christian, I'm just establishing his methodology).<br /><br />My logical extension, Descartes declared a few other things:  People are constantly deceived, and that as such, they should doubt everything they see.  The Cogito was to establish  that there was one universal absolute (at least, before he expanded it) that we could all believe accept, even if inclined to doubt it -- that we are a thinking thing, because the act of doubting requires thought.  And thought establishes proof of existence.<br /><br />I -really- dig Descartes :-)  He was one astonishingly clever fellow.


created: 2002-07-06 05:01:35
subject: <b>good one! Some people have no sense of fun (or maybe they're thick).</b>
body:
I love physics theories, and I am sure RJ does draw on his knowledge of physics in writing these books, as his backstory.  If he studied physics, he must see the world in a physics kind of way, &amp; this is bornes out very clearly by the text, mythologising physical theories about the nature of time &amp; the universe.<br /><br />Now I am not a physicist or a philosopher, so my underpinnings here are pretty shaky.  Mythology is more my strong point.  But this is how I see it:<br /><br />The universe  of the WoT was created by a creator from outside the universe (&quot;the Creator&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Matter &amp; time (which may well be a function of matter &amp; limited to material objects) exist only in the created universe.  This is the Pattern.  Check this out against membrane theory or its precursor string theory.  We are told by M-theorists (when they are trying to make their theory understandable to lay people like me) that matter is a form of vibration on a non-material membrane of some sort in another dimension (I don't understand but that's because my mind doesn't work that way).  This membrane forms our universe, and there may be other universes floating about in that dimension.  It may even one day be possible to create a universe in a lab!<br /><br />So, to return: the Creator is from outside the universe.  This being created the universe of time &amp; matter but <b>is not part of it</b> and is not subject to time - or at least not the time that exists in the universe of the WOT.<br /><br />Another (or, who knows, the same?) being from outside the universe of matter &amp; time thinks that the act of creating the universe was a bad thing.  This being seeks to destroy the universe of time and matter.  This is the being that is known within the universe as the Dark One.  Like the Creator the DO is not part of the universe and is not subject to time.  The DO cannot get into our universe to destroy it, either (as humans believe) because the Creator has locked him/her out somehow, or just because non-material non-temporal beings cannot exist in our universe.  The DO can influence things from outside, via the bore, whatever that is, and uses human beings to try to find a way to let him get at the universe so he can destroy it.<br /><br />The Philosopher Elan Morin Tedronai of the universe of the WOT also believes that the world is a Bad Thing and should be destroyed.  On the discovery of the DO, he quickly realises that he &amp; the DO are in agreement and therefore becomes one of the Forsaken.  It is his understanding of the DOs true aims that prevent his being taken in by the lure of being Naeblis (the other F are all rather dim in comparison &amp; really think one of them will rule the world once the DO is free, but only Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin knows there will be no world to rule) and thus allows him in some ways much more freedom from the DO.<br /><br />I also agree with whoever was talking about evil in the world coming from human fallibility.  I think ordinary human evil is in many ways more powerful in the world than the DO.  That is why SL was able to absorb the taint &amp; why Fain's wound will cancel out the other one once the barrier between them breaks down.  Also why the DO has to use evil humans to do his work.<br /><br />Good luck in future theories, and ignore the killjoys.


created: 2002-07-12 20:25:54
subject: <b>good idea, but sorry</b>
body:
The dark one would probably be able to recreate the world in his image even without time.  Think about it: The DO is trapped outside of time, yet he can communicate with the Forsaken, and him talking implies that he is thinking.  Nice try, but no cigar.


created: 2002-10-12 16:55:25
subject: <b>Naah..</b>
body:
Seems too far-fetched to me. Time is a dimension like any other, and no human can imagine what a place lacking one of the four dimensions will be like. (Dimensions: Up/down, left/right, forward/backwards, time) &quot;For all time&quot; and &quot;eternally&quot; are two different expressions in my eyes, as in the last one, the person who percieves it stands outside time itself. Standing still in the dimension &quot;time&quot; and standing outside of the dimension &quot;time&quot; are two different situations, as I see it. Try asking a scientist about it. For example, time moves slower when you travel at extreme speeds, as stated by Einstein's Theory of Relativity. But even though time moves slower, the person moving near the speed of light still feels as though time is flowing normally. When he stops five minutes later, however, a year might have passed outside his spaceship.<br /><br />(Ok, this was a very hypothetic example, but it has its root in reality...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 15:49:49
subject: <b>What then is the Dark one?</b>
body:
<br />my thoughts are if the Dark One is so powerful, why does he say he wants to end time. Based on the above theory it would seem that the Dark one is not so powerful, that maybe he was a really powerful challener turned evil.<br />i think it relates to the devil/maya/delusion. which are not really all that powerful anyways. i'm not sure. Anybody else's ideas are much apreciated. thanx<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who knows they are lost?<br />Who knows they are found?<br />Where the leaf might float<br />On the River<br />The Rocks do threaten<br />Stay the Course<br />Who can say where the rapids lead?<br />For this River is Illusion<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />-Wanderer85</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 15:50:27
subject: <b>What then is the Dark one?</b>
body:
my thoughts are if the Dark One is so powerful, why does he say he wants to end time. Based on the above theory it would seem that the Dark one is not so powerful, that maybe he was a really powerful challener turned evil.<br />i think it relates to the devil/maya/delusion. which are not really all that powerful anyways. i'm not sure. Anybody else's ideas are much apreciated. thanx<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who knows they are lost?<br />Who knows they are found?<br />Where the leaf might float<br />On the River<br />The Rocks do threaten<br />Stay the Course<br />Who can say where the rapids lead?<br />For this River is Illusion<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />-Wanderer85</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-04 17:13:53
subject: <b>One of several options</b>
body:
The key question is: having apparently no memory of ever being free before, does the DO actually know what the actual effects of his breaking out will be on reality?<br /><br />Total oblivion for all souls, and himself, is one of several possibilities.


created: 2002-06-26 09:09:21
subject: <b>Uh...here's why I disagree</b>
body:
It's a good theory, although there isn't all that much evidence. In fact, I'd probably agree with it if we didn't have other data hinting that Demandred's in the South...I tend to believe in what I have at least a little bit of evidence for over circumstantial evidence. I think that was a sentence...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 09:13:44
subject: <b>It's possible, though...</b>
body:
After all, isn't the comment about the south made in LoC?  I hadn't thought about it until I saw this theory, but he could easily have accomplished something in the south and since moved on to another bit of naughtiness somewhere else.  Heck, he could be running a couple of schemes at once since he can travel.  All he'd need would be a disguise that allows him to disappear for a few days at a time without arousing suspicion.  You know, a scout, or a spymaster, etc.<br />Not that I'm voting either way.  I'm with the admin- I'm just too confused to take a side at this point.  One thing, though, I'll be really amused when the whole issue is cleared up. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="red">Egwene the Skank Sedai</font></i></b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Theory Post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Children of the Light are the KKK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="green">My cat's breath smells like cat food!</font><b>-Ralph Wiggum</b><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 09:40:06
subject: <b>Was Sammy right?</b>
body:
Everyone seems to assume that Sammael DID know where Demandred was, and what he was up to, but no-one seems to have entertained the idea that Sammy might have been wrong.  I think maybe too much emphasis has been placed on that passage in LOC.<br /> However, using that very passage, I'd suggest that Demandred is more likely using Masema and co than anyone else.  According to Sammael, he doesn't care what Dem and company do, as long as they stay away from Illian.  This suggests to me that they were somewhere near Illian in the first place, and the Dragonsworn following Masema fit the bill much more so than the Borderland armies.<br /> That's if Sammy knew what he was talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 10:05:43
subject: <b>No way...</b>
body:
Bashere is far too excentric and carismatic for someone to replace him that easily. Besides Illusion does not stand up to touch unless the two objects are extremely close already. Rand and Bashere have touched on a number of occations. Not the least of which was where Bashere tackled Rand off of his horse, during his Callandor overdose. Incidently, don't you think that a male Forsaken would grab a sa'angreal of Callandor's power if they got the chance. Also, I find it hard to believe that Damandred could infiltrate the borderland armies, though not impossible. I know that the Forsaken don't have any respect for the Aes Sedai of this Age, but there are 13 of them traveling with that army and 13 can take anyone down. That would kind of a risky proposition. I still lean towards Dammy either being with Maesema or the Seanchan Forrunners.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 10:35:20
subject: <b>Bashere is NOT Demandred</b>
body:
We've seen far too much interaction with characters who should know something's amiss -- Perrin, with his scents, Min, with her viewings, and of course Rand/LTT.  If LTT freaked about Taim, how do you think he'd react to Demandred??  <br /><br />If you notice, RJ has carefully steered Min clear of any Forsaken.  Not a mean trick.  The one -possible- exception to this is her time in the White Tower. <br /><br />Plus, Bashere is pretty much Rand's highest advisor.  He's surrounded by Asha'man frequently.  Don't you think any of them would sense whether he could channel?<br /><br />I know I mentioned Bashere as a longshot candidate a long time ago, but time to think about has shown me it can't be him.


created: 2002-06-26 10:54:16
subject: <b>No evidence against it . . . . .</b>
body:
I'm not sure I agree with the theory, but the only argument against it that holds water is Sammael's &quot;to the South&quot; comment.  And quite a bit of time has gone by since then.<br /><br />Demandred could easily be influencing the Borderland armies, despite an Aes Sedai presence.  He does, after all, use Saidin, which makes it sort of difficult for an Aes Sedai to pick him out of a crowd.  And with Aran'gar camping out among ~300 Aes Sedai, there's certainly a precedent for it.<br /><br />The Borderlands are the most significant military presence that haven't been influenced by the Forsaken (that we know of).  They're undoubtedly the most experienced, battle-hardened, combat ready force in the known world (with the possible exception of the Seanchan).  Combine that with the fact that they're the only line of defense between the Blight &amp; the rest of the world, and I'd be very surprised if none of the Forsaken were paying attention to them.  Since Demandred is one of the few who isn't really accounted for . . . . .<br /><br />And I certainly wouldn't put it past him to be meddling in multiple areas at once, which would explain the &quot;South&quot; comment (either through Masema or the Whitecloaks).


created: 2002-06-26 11:33:46
subject: <b>Good Idea.</b>
body:
I like the idea that Demandred is up to more than one thing. And because any change in his mission would have happenned after LoC it makes the &quot;to the south&quot; remark less important. For a while I've thought that he was with the borderlanders because there was a theory a while ago suggesting that Demandred was some obscure (but named) officer in the Saldaean army. I think he makes his appearance at the beginning of a CoS (possibly to inform Bashere that Logain has arrived in Caemlyn). His brief appearance is in the presence of Rand and when he does appear Therin goes nuts. Want more information on this guy look up the theory yourselves - I'm not bothered. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-26 11:48:08
subject: <b>I went to look for that theory myself ...</b>
body:
but couldn't find it. Anywho I'm certain this guy turns up at the beginning of CoS as a Saldaean. And one of the pieces of evidence used in the Basherandred theories was that he turned up just after Asmodean was killed. Asmodean would have been able to reveal his identity. Which also fits for this guy.


created: 2002-06-26 11:56:56
subject: <b>One thing</b>
body:
that I would agree with is that Demmy is probably in more than ine place, using proxies to fullfill his evil mission. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Sammy also commented that Demmy may have had a hand in Rand's kidnapping, &quot;despite how it turned out.&quot; No borderlander King (Quenn/Ruler/ 5,000 strong army, these people that he is suppose to be with) had much to do with the kidnapping or the rescue.<br /><br />The only thing that really gives this theory any level of credence is the comment about Demmy hoping to blunder into Rand. Thats not much to go on. I wouldn't put money on it.<br /><br />Peace, Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 12:08:58
subject: <b>Tumad Ahzkan</b>
body:
is the name of the Saldean soldier who you are refering to, Thedrin. He is mentioned in the theory titled &quot;Demandred's Possible Identity.&quot;<br /><br />So, I suppose there are a few more attributes which could possibly link Demmy to the Boarderland Armies. 1) He physically resembles them. OTOH, with the MOM, who cares what he looks like. 2) &quot;He was a gambler who liked to play odds&quot; TWoRJtWoT. I guess being with the Boarderland Army hoping to run into Rand would be considered a gambler. Boy, that seems like a stretch, though.<br /><br />Peace, Out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 12:46:55
subject: <b>Can't agree</b>
body:
For various reasons. There are 13 AS with the Borderlanders, he'd wanna not take chances there. And, I believe Sammy's &quot;South&quot; comment was on the money and believe Demandred is with Masema (and adding to his mental unbalance).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pike-Captain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Prepare to pass the Heart Guard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <br />Its time to dance with Jak o' the Shadows! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />War is evil. But sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils.- Kissinger<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 13:56:53
subject: <b>I'm not saying I agree with this theory, but......</b>
body:
The comments that Demandred wouldn't take the chance of being near 13 AS is just plain silly.  We KNOW that channelers can hide their ability to channel.  We KNOW that Demandred is a gambler.  It seems to me that unless he started killing the AS off in obviously OP ways, there is NO chance in hell they are going to discover who he is.<br /><br />Having said that, I don't know how much weight this theory holds, because I don't really see the borderlanders taking advice from strangers who mysteriously appear.  They seem to have known their advisors for a long time, and all of them seem very independent.  <br /><br />I realize that compulsion could account for this, but I've never gotten the impression that compulsion was used on any of them.  When Compulsion is used on someone, there is usually some discrepency on their behavior.  For example, Tuon was surprised at Anath being named her So'....whatever, because somebody else was supposed to get the job.  We understand the borderlanders reasoning for bringing their armies, and while it might be a mistake they do have their reasons.<br /><br />My final reason why Demandred probably isn't with the borderlander armies is the prophecy the north shall he tie to the east.  That implies that the borderlanders will join Rand, something I'm sure Demandred wouldn't do.<br /><br />Just my random ramblings<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch. FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!


created: 2002-06-26 15:18:06
subject: <b>13 Aes Sedai with Borderlanders Armies</b>
body:
I'd have to agree that a Forsaken is involved with the Borderlanders army.<br /><br />The 13 Aes Sedai, to me, is a good hint.  These Aes Sedai have been very secretive, and very careful to avoid contact with the White Tower.  I don't know if their is anything around that diproves what I am about to say, but I bet all of them are black Ajah.<br /><br />Their seemed to be several indications that compulsion might have been used, such as Tenobia disappearing from Elaida for quite some time.  <br /><br />I felt like Mesanna may have been manipulating the army due to the 13 Aes Sedai, but since Mesanna and Demmy do work together from time to time, it is conceivable that Demandred is the one directing the troops.<br /><br />Clearly something is going on with them.  <br /><br />Since Demmy uses proxies, I believe that he has been involved with 3 or 4 different projects: the Children of the Light, the Prophet, The Seanchan, and the perhaps the Borderlanders.<br /><br />If you think about it, Rand is involved with:  Illian, Tear, Cairhienin, and Andor.  He also has the Aiel and the Ashamen under his belt.<br /><br />If Demandred is really supposed to be almost Rand's equal, don't you think that Demmy has the capability to be involved with just as many factions?<br /><br />Thus, I think it is highly, highly possible that Demmy has involvement with the Borderlanders.  I like the theory and possibility.  Unfortunately it is lacking in hard evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 15:31:27
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
Is there a support group for sufferers of Post-Taimandred Syndrome?  At this point, most theories look equally plausible.  (read: not very, but better than nothing.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> *snicker, snicker*<br />Part-Time Lurker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Pagans; into sex, death, and religion, in an interesting late night tv sort of way.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 16:33:53
subject: <b>Forgive me...</b>
body:
This is slightly off the topic, but I have to clear up a few misconceptions I've read in the responses to this post.  <br /><br />First, RJ hasn't steered Min clear of  the Forsaken.  At the end of TGH in &quot;First Claiming&quot;  Lanfear comes upon Min lying in bed with Rand while he's unconcious.  Lanear &quot;marks&quot; him, and tells her to, &quot;tend him well.&quot;<br /><br />Also, men and women channelers are different.  There would be NO reason for any man to hide his ability to channel... When Rand met Taim, he told him to hold as much as could.  That was the only way Rand could judge his  strength.  The only way to tell if a man can channel at all is if he happens to be channeling at the time.  And the Forsaken can hide weaves anyway.  So I see no reason why he'd be afraid of 13 Aes Sedai...<br /><br />For the record, I don't have a clue where Demandred is... this idea is as good as any.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-06-26 16:47:06
subject: <b>Alternatively,</b>
body:
He could just be living in a tent somewhere completely obscure, and Travelling back and forth between all the things he's up to; dropping in on Taim to give him orders, probably pulling a few other strings as well. <br /><br />We'll probably have to RAFO, ultimately<br /><br /><br />Talking of obscure places, where is Seleisin, as in &quot;a goatherd in &quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 17:12:56
subject: <b>A Rant in D minor</b>
body:
Okay, I'm confused.<br /><br />The rules of the theory post are very clearly stated, numerous times, all over the site.<br /><br />One of the main rules is to <i>read the other theories</i> that have been posted on the subject you are going to post.<br /><br />In the last couple of weeks we have had three or four theories that discuss this specific tidbit of information.  <i>Every one</i> of those theories names some other group where Demandred is located.  Doesn't this lead to the obvious conclusion that there is simply not enough proof in this statement and that any guesses as to Demandred's whereabouts are simply that:  Guesses?  Yet the theories keep pouring in.  How about I submit a theory that I think Demandred is with the Aes Sedai in Salidar, since that is &quot;to the south&quot; and he could be &quot;working through proxies.&quot;  Also, the Salidar Aes Sedai could have made Sammael think that they were going to interfere with his plans in Illian.  But, to be sure it got submitted, I would have to have poor sentence structure and bad grammar.<br /><br /><i>Come on.</i>  If it's worth being posted, it's at least worth being edited once.  And a little bit of proof other than pur conjecture would be nice, as well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 23:07:45
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
I can't say whether I support the theory or not (although it has some good points), but I want to address a couple of statements that others have posted above. <br /> <br />   First, why would Demandred be worried about being around 13 Aes Sedai when Halima/Aran'gar is surrounded by HUNDREDS of them w/out being to put out?<br /><br />   Second, for anyone who believes that Bashere might be Demandred, I suggest you reread &quot;A Time for Iron&quot; in tPoD. There is a sequence in it from Bashere's POV. At one point he reminisces about his involvement in the Blood Snows (the Battle of the Shining Walls), which occured at the end of the Aiel War, nearly twenty years before Demandred was released from his prison. Case closed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 23:13:54
subject: <b>Another point</b>
body:
Just to add some support to WtrNshade's comment about Min being around Forsaken; she spent a considerable amount of time with one when Dashiva/Osan'gar was hanging around Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 23:41:05
subject: <b>Not so Fast</b>
body:
Demandred may very well be in the Borderland Armies, but I doubt it. The Borderlands are not very weak, even if each army has fifty thousand people. Remember, it was mentioned several times that the Blight was not left unguarded. The size of the armies is to create a large enough force to absolutely crush the Dragon Reborn's army. They are unsure of his motives and if they find them unfavorable they will attempt to destroy him, and probably would with such a large army if it werent for the asha'man- remember that the Borderlanders, especially the eastern nations of Sheinar and Arafel have Aiel War veterans who know how to fight aiel. Aiel are not invincible despite the way it seems sometimes. The Borderlanders cannot afford to fight a two prong war against the shadow AND the southern nations. This way they can quickly dispel of a massive popular threat. Demandred is not necessary for this to happen. He COULD be with them, but I see no reason why he could/should/would be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 01:41:04
subject: <b>Very nice Scorp...</b>
body:
I think that Scorp has made the most coherent arguement of any posted on this theory. From all that we have read on them they are a very independent lot. Then we read that all of the borderlanders are acting in concert, in a pact bound by blood and honor. I feel that if compulsion were being used,  there would be no need for a council. There would be only one person giving orders.<br /><br />I was on of the ones who pointed out the thirteen AS as a hinderence to Dammy, but as many have pointed out,  there is precedence of this in other places. Now if Dammy were traveling with the borderland army why would he put up with thirteen AS? Why not get rid of them and decrease his odds of discovery? He isn't in a situation like Aran'gar or Messena, that are surrounded by hundreds of AS. One possible reason is, as stated in an earlier post, they are all black. Or at least some are. Another is not to raise any suspision as to what happened to them. Although AS seem to come and go as they please. It just doesn't make any sence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 01:44:33
subject: <b>what if...</b>
body:
i believe that the 13 Aes Sedai are all blacks, and that they are habouring demandred amoung the borderland armies. i think that demandred is running the whole operation disguised as a saldean soldier. after all, every ruler has an aes sedai advisor, and it makes sense that the black sisters would be pulling some strings of their own.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 01:59:58
subject: <b>Pulling some strings....</b>
body:
I will freely admit that some or all of the AS advisors could be black. Can anyone honestly say that Tenobia is being controlled by anyone. She snubs an Amerlyn Seat, and treats everyone else as if they're not in on a joke. If I remember right her advisor is less of an advisor and more of a spectator. Also a majority of the AS with the army are not advisors. They just happened upon the army. Well after reading what I just wrote I guess it could go either way.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 02:40:47
subject: <b>How about this...I havent seen this one.</b>
body:
I dont think Demandred is with the BL armies.  If anyone could sniff out Darkfriends it would be Borderlanders.  Also, to what end?  Borderlanders arent going to fight Bashere when they run into them.  It seems an awful risk...if he fails, he has just STRENGTHENED Rand's army by 250,000 men...Cant think the Great Lord would like that.  If you want to know where Demandred is, think like him.  He is a strategist.  Ill give you an unsubstantiated location for Demandred based on what he could accomplish from it.<br /><br />Demandred is with the Armies in South Andor that havent come to Elayne yet!  Here is what he gains:<br /><br />1) He delays Egwene's attack on the White Tower giving Mesaana more time to sow chaos and strengthen the tower (remember Alviarin wanting to strengthen the Guard?  She needs time to get ready.)<br />2) He keeps Elayne from uniting Andor and creating any kind of ally to Rand.  Andor would be pivotal to uniting Cairhein and the whole area plus contribute a vast army and supplies.<br />3) Because Elayne cant control Andor, Taim can still work his chaos...remember she wants to get rid of him from Andor but she cant because she has no power until those houses come to her.  <br />4)  It gave him time to get Shaina and that Elite Guard (Hanlon?) the chance to influence her.  Lets face it, her army is now mercenary in nature and if things get going for Elayne, a simple strike and she is gone and Rand's plan falls apart at the seams.<br />5) The South Andor army effectively produces a border between Ghealdan and Andor.  Ghealdan is now easy pickings for Seanchan or the Prophet...take your pick.<br />6) Andor is the key!  It has always been the key, both geographically, militarily and historically.  He has made Andor a Non-Entity by keeping that Army in South Andor.  <br />7) Its a nice reserve that has a ton of uses.  That army could block Perrin by a simple suggestion of insurrection of Manatheren.  That army could storm Caemlyn on a simple word that Aiel or Rand or anyone assassinated Elayne.  Andor would be Demandreds.<br /><br />There are more things that he could do.  I think that Army is a masterpiece of strategy.  I tried looking at it from backwards....Demandred gains nothing and takes a big risk from being with the Borderlanders.  He has no real gain except to sow chaos by being with Masema.  Rand has basically ignored Masema and even those he has caused problems...they are minor.  Big waste of time in my opinion.<br /><br />One last thing, he could be with the Seanchan.  He gains a lot by using them against Rand.  If they annihilate each other, then the Trollocs will cover the earth regardless of who can channel.  Sorry its so long.  Guess I should have made it a theory!


created: 2002-06-27 02:49:10
subject: <b>uh</b>
body:
clearly min is retarded, you guys give her too much credit<br />RJ has not steered her clear of forsaken, such as dashiva<br /><br />and you forget, dem uses PROXIES, there is absolutely no reason to actually be where his proxies are working<br />


created: 2002-06-27 13:15:11
subject: <b>Thanks for responding guys</b>
body:
Thanks a lot guys, this was my first theory posted so next time i'll have more stuff, i basically think that the Borderland armies are just way too big of a force for the DO not to be concerned with, so he HAS to have agents there.  I think Sammael was a moron and didn't really know what Demmy was up to, at least he didn't know as much as he thought he did.  I think Demandred is in more than one place though definitely, why not?  He is a master gambler, and has basically been very good at keeping out of sight and Rand's way, makes him VERY dangerous...


created: 2002-06-27 14:23:50
subject: <b>Cyndane could be with the Borderlanders</b>
body:
She doesn't have a 'place' yet, and both she in her new incarnation, and the BO army, are new developments. Minor point -- she's now in a Borderlander body.


created: 2002-06-27 15:08:59
subject: <b>If he was with the Borderlasnders...</b>
body:
I really think the South Andor army theory beats the borderland out... <br />  Anyway, supposing he wasn't in Andor but was with a clutch of Black Sisters, couldn't he be posing as a warder? <br />   It is a well protected position, he has the sword/military skills necessary, wouldn't get many questions, he'd have an excuse to leave every few days to &quot;scout,&quot; he'd have access to &quot;proxies&quot; and he could have been involved in Rand's kidnapping or with the Borderlanders... Not much evidence to support this, of course, but then Demandred hasn't left a lot of evidence.<br />   Oh yeah, and if he is in Andor, that ties in with the cover summary thingy for CoT...


created: 2002-06-27 17:34:06
subject: <b>Oops on Min</b>
body:
However...this brings up a good point.  If Min can see on Aes Sedai ALWAYS, why doesn't she see them on Forsaken?


created: 2002-06-27 17:37:23
subject: <b>My own musings</b>
body:
The question of where Demandred is is one of the ones that has occupied most of my time.  Until now, I have never posted any of my findings/ideas, but I wanted to throw them out and see what y'all can do with it.  I apologize in advance for the length of these ramblings.<br /><br />First off, a couple of things that I have not seen discussed all that much.  In the prologue of FOH, the first hints of Demandred are revealed.  We learn that he beleives he is all but the heir to the DO.  Lanfear also makes a comment about Graendal, Sammael and Rahvin consolidating their power while the rest of them slashed at each other.  She mentions Moghedian and Demandred.  We know that Moghedian was in Tarabon, but not in a position of power such as the other three.  Instead she was involving herself in the area for a temporary benefit.  Throughout the series, we also see more of her &quot;travelling exploits&quot;  in opposition to the other three.<br />The comment about Dem beleiving he is heir to the DO is also interesting.  At this point Ish has left the scene.  From this comment, I have always beleived that Dem has taken his place as the &quot;favorite&quot; of the DO.  When examining Sammael's famous speech with this in mind, the first thing that jumps to my mind is the emphasis on the word &quot;friends&quot;.  Combined with the fact that Dem likes proxies, I have always felt that after Ish's death, Demandred took over the guiding of the dark&quot;friends&quot;.  <br />Also from Sammael's speech, the infamous south comment.  At that time, the three factions invovled in the south were, the Seanchan, the Prophet and the Whitecloaks.  I personally have ruled out the prophet, as they are not carving out any territory, although I would not be suprised to learn of some involvement.  That leaves the Seanchan and the Whitecloaks.  As we surmise, Semirahage is with the Seanchan, although this does not rule out the possibility of two levels of Forsaken involvement.<br />In order to break this puzzle it is important to think about one other important fact.  Whatever Demandred has been up too, he has been successful.  He has not been mindtrapped or chastised in any way by Morridin.  the DO summons him to Shayoul Ghoul to speak with him personally.  We have to beleive that the reason for this is success at whatever he has been doing.  So Seanchan, or Whitecloaks??  Why not both??<br />For all intents and purposes, the Whitecloak involvement south of Arad Doman has had one &quot;successful&quot; effect.  It has weakened it, making it easier for the Seanchan invasion.  Two arguments people have made against this kind of theory are that Dem and Sem are not working together, and that the Seanchan eventually invade Amador.  To me these are not arguments.  In the case of the Seanchan, I have always felt that they are a huge part of the DO's plans.  Ishmael set the invasion in motion thousands of years ago.  Remember, Dem has not been chastised for going against the wishes of the DO.  The Forsaken that have been punished have all gone against his wishes.  Because of this, aiding the Seanchan invasion may have nothing to do with Sem, it may only have to do with furthering the DO's plans.  Remember, Semirage is another Forsaken that has not been punished or chastised for her actions.  Also, the Whitecloaks, although from Amador, are not of Amador.  They operate in all parts of the world, so the invasion of Amador may not negatively effect Demandreds plans at all, especially if he has left Amador by then.<br />So, by my line of thinking I have always felt that Dem has been with the Whitecloaks.  They were carving out territory south of Arad Doman.  Their tactics, especially those of the questioners, are very darkfriendesque.  They have a large and powerful (at least before the Aiel) millitary.  They have influence in all parts of the world.  A perfect place for a Forsaken.  They also have Balwer, the spymaster of Amador.  A man with an extensive network of eyes and ears, capable of watching Rand and equally capable of passing orders to his darkfriend proxies.  A man who left Amador, during the Seanchan invasion.  A man who is now with Perrin, in  a perfect position to bump into Rand.  But Balwer????  I know what you all are thinking, I am thinking the same thing, but there are many things that, if they don't point directly to him, at least gesture in his general direction.<br /><br />One another note, I felt I should throw out an idea about Taim.  I beleive Taim is a darkfriend who was discovered during the &quot;ugliness after the Ail war&quot;  that we now know invovled searches for the DR.  I beleive that he was found by Black sisters, possibly disguised as Red's and either turned, or recruited.  I beleive that at this point he gained protection from the taint and teaching, most likely from ISH.  the main thing that leads me to this conclusion is the timing.  He has been channelling for 15 years and has not gone insane.  15 years.  That number has been brought up many times.  It is the same time that Owein was gentled.  It was the same time as the &quot;ugliness after the Ail war&quot;.  It is the same time as the events of &quot;New Spring&quot;  (roughly).  We know that Ish was active at this time.  I also think it would be very evil of the Black Ajah to reveal a plan that had already occurred, such as the setting up of Mazrim Taim to cause chaos in the name of the Dragon Reborn.  This would also go with my idea that Dem took over Ish's contacts after his death as I am sure Taim and Dem are linked in some way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 21:21:31
subject: <b>Two Bits</b>
body:
Bit One is that 250,000 Borderlanders (or just 200,000, which I believe is more accurate -- 50,000 times four being 200,000), regardless of their fighting skill in comparison with the Aiel, are pretty heavily outnumbered.  There are at least 200,000 Aiel loyal to Rand, probably far more, and then you have to take into account the Tairens, AND the Cairhienens, AND the Illianers, plus Bashere's gang and the Legion of the Dragon.  Throw in even three Asha'man (Rand and the two he can still count on) and 250,000 Borderlanders are pretty much toast.  I admit that all of Rand's troops are a bit spread out, but gateways solve the transport time problem without too much trouble.  Heck, Rand by himself, with the Choe'dan Kal, could do some extremely nasty damage to any army, no matter the size.<br /><br />Bit Two is that this theory, while not without merit, has only one piece of evidence going for it -- evidence which, as I've posted before, could easily refer to the Asha'man under Demandred's influence who are wandering about trying to take down Rand.  I acknowledge that there's little to contradict this theory, but not having any counterevidence does not prove anything. Evidence FOR is needed just as badly as an absence of evidence AGAINST.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 00:57:38
subject: <b>Wow! Praise!</b>
body:
Remeber, the Borderlanders have the largest army seen in living history as of about 2 years ago. In fact, its about FORTY times larger. They brought what THEY thought would be an overwhelming force, not what we know to be an overwhelming force. Demandred had NOTHING to do with them, or if he did there was no reason for it. If he truely wanted chaos then he would try and have the borderlanders invade Andor! That would cause huge chaos. Borderlanders and aiel would wipe each other out greatly weakening the &quot;Light's&quot; Army. As for the Aes Sedai with them, which idiot suggested that they might 'reveal' or 'discover' him? Thats a load of crap, to Demandred they are like pesky flys. Half-trained girls they are called. He could easily conceal himself from them with minimal effort. As to whether theyre black or not we have no evidence one way or the other. Most likely they are not all black since not all arrived together and some were known before they met up with the armies. One or two were advisors I believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 12:36:02
subject: <b>Re: wotenslaved</b>
body:
I have similar feelings.  I do feel that Sammael statement that Demandred likes his proxies is important, though.  As the the poster of this theory points out, Demandred is probably like Lanfear with his fingers in a lot of pies.  He may take on an alias for a short period of time but mostly I think he manipulates a host of people like pieces on a chess board. <br /><br />I toyed with Balwenedred for a while.  I do not believe he is Balwer for three reasons, first his job appears to be a full time commitment for a long period of time.  Demandred strikes me as the type of person that would be too busy to limit himself to the WC.  Second, Balwer while creepy isn't Forsaken type creepy.  Third he is short. <br /><br />Earlier I post a theory (that was accepted-what were they thinking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) that Demandred might be Einor Saren the inquisitor first met in tGH.  You might want to check it out.  Or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-22 14:18:34
subject: <b>a conversation between forsaken</b>
body:
I thought that there was one conversation in the book of two forsaken, or a meating of a few, that one of them said that occurrences in the north looked too much like demandreds doing.  Am I wrong?  If this is true, i believe that this theory is correct, and i thank the theorist for bringing it to my attention.


created: 2002-07-25 11:27:57
subject:
<b>Re<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />emandred's Location Revealed.</b>

body:
The only problem i see with that is when Sammael was at Arad Doman with Graendal he thought to himself that the things going on to the south were Demandred's handiwork.<br />And i believe to the south of Arad Doman are Seanchan, Dragonsworn, and Children of the Light. The Borderland armies were in Andor speaking with Elayne and heading south towards Far Madding. A long way East and South of Arad Doman. Also, in an earlier book one of the forsaken speculated that there must be a male trap on The Great Hold or Demandred would have long since grabbed an angreal/sangreal and launched himself against Rand. I have to wonder why he would have access to the great hold over the other male forsaken.


created: 2002-07-25 12:34:21
subject: <b>Aes Sedai with the borderland army</b>
body:
I just signed up so my last post wasnt really the way it should be considering i didnt read the others comments first! I see i mostly repeated what others have already said but one thing i noticed people saying that the aes sedai with the borderland army are black ajah not associating with the tower. Not true. When Elaida took over as Amyrlin they were discussing the borderland being quite and Tenobia getting out of hand, Elaida sent the aes sedai to use the borderland army to track down Rand for the tower.<br />Its not the forsaken behind the army searching for Rand but another net for the tower.


created: 2002-07-30 16:21:25
subject: <b>Borderlanders and Rand</b>
body:
Demandred or the Tower may very well be trying to manipulate the borderlander army, but you have to remember three things.  First, all of the Saldeans will switch sides to join Bashere, not even Tenobia goes against him win it comes to fighting.  Second, Agelmar knows that Rand was the one who saved him and his men at Tarwins Gap, so he'll switch sides along with all of the Shienerians.  Third, there is no way in hell any of the Kandori or Arafellins will stay on the wrong side of the battlefield from Bashere and Agelmar.  Rand is about to add a lot more troops (unfortunately hes probably going to have to send all of them and some of his own back to fight Trollocs, but hey).  And FINALLY, my favorite character returns, Hurin!


created: 2002-08-16 18:20:40
subject: <b>But wait......</b>
body:
Re-reading WH I noticed what could be a critical line regarding the whereabouts of Demandred and I've searched the theories on this site and have not seen it anywhere else (but if so, I apologise for the repartition). It's during the get together of the Forsaken at the end of the chapter, &quot;Wonderful News&quot; where Aran'gar is having a go at Osan'gar for his incompetance,<br /><br />  &quot;You were responsable for watching him, Osangar,&quot; she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. &quot;You, and Demandred.&quot;<br /><br />  This suggests that Dem is in very close proximity to Rand in a similar way that Dashiva was. Such closness is emphasized by her following comment that her own &quot;charge&quot; (Egwene) is under her thumb.<br /><br />  Okay, so I don't know WHO he is but I think that it's someone under our (and Rands) noses. <br /><br />


created: 2002-09-02 20:24:58
subject: <b>Clearing up a bit of misinformation.</b>
body:
I've notice numerous people have commented that Demandred could hide himself among Aes Sedai since Os'angar is able to. People, remember, she is a male channeler in a female's body. Halima uses Saidin, not Saidar thus it's undetectable without inverting the weaves. Still, I agree Dred wouldn't give two shakes about 1 or 13 Aes Sedai in his presence. As mentioned before and by the Chosen, they are 'little more than girls' when it comes to using the One Power.


created: 2002-09-10 17:14:20
subject: <b>A Velvet Cloak.</b>
body:
I'm surprised this hasn't been caught before but here goes. In 'Lord of Chaos' right in the beginning of the prologue 'The First Message' pg. 1 in the paperback and most likly the hardback. Dem is stepping out of his gateway onto the slopes of Shayol Ghul. Here's the passage; 'Despite the steam it was bitter cold, now; he did not allow himself to feel it, but instinct made him pull his fur-lined velvet cloak closer.'<br /><br />  This says to me the land of the Seanchan. As pointed out by a friend of mine because I'm rusty on my WoT thus rereading it, all of the 'Westland', 'Randland' is locked in a perpetual summer due to the Dark One's touch. From the chapter 'The Far Snows' in 'The Fires of Heaven' we're shown a Glimmer(Haha) of Seanchan. A heavy snow storm covers the land, and pg. 519 in your paperbacks will show 'The mounted were all women shrouded in long think, fur-lined cloaks...' It's not concrete proof Dem is in Seachan but it's certainly an interesting clue that seems to have been passed over by many. <br /><br />  Why would he be in Seachan when Semirhage is already in a place of power there? Well, it is a land even more emense then the Westlands according to the White Book(The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time). He could be high among the Seekers whom no one is safe from. All save the Empress are subject to a Seeker's justice. They seem to be the Whitecloaks of the far off land. He would still be able to work his proxies and have his hand in other events as far as I can figure. Too bad we don't know more of how the Seekers really work. The snag though, as pointed out by the same friend of mine, is we've been told to have met all of the Chosen. Could Dem possibly be the Seeker who visited Egeanin? He had blonde hair but it could have easily been a disguise. Maybe not, but something to ponder.


created: 2005-03-05 21:06:52
subject: <b>Demandred as one of the rulers?!</b>
body:
I don't think Demandred is one of the Bordeland rulers. None of the Forsaken have tried to masquerqade as prominent figures who have been around before they were released. Graendal caim the closest, but it's not really clear whether or not the Domani lady she is masquerading as was a real person or if Graendal just invented her.<br /><br />He might be with the Borderlanders, but a converstion between Graendal and Sammael hints otherwise. Sammael tells Graendal to tell Demandred that he knows what he's doing in the SOUTH. The furthest the Borderlanders have gotten so far is Andor, which isn't all that far south if Sammael is in Illian.


created: 2009-05-16 14:13:59
subject: <b>not so</b>
body:
There is one other character who as been blundering around and in the south. A character who is very good at hiding his true identity. He has also been in the series to many times to not be important. It is the one character that is truly the creepiest and most evil. <br />Valan Luca<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aiel and Whitecloaks perfect Allies<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 13:10:27
subject: <b>Tuon is rather superstitious</b>
body:
I like what you wrote.  We still have to allow for the possibility that Tuon and the culture around her is just superstitious.  We already have evidence that Tuon is supersitious with her quest for Omens.  <br /><br />Another, admittedly loony, theory is that Tuon is ta'veren (in a way similar to Mat) or has a skill similar to Min's such that her interpretations of Omens (and 'fortellings' from damanes she asks for) come true.  If true it wouldn't be any weirder skill than Mat's luck or Min's viewings or Hurin's nose.  The only evidence for this is Tuon's habit of using Omens.  (And the fact that they seem to work.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 13:21:15
subject: <b>Okay, this SERIOUSLY isnt funny anymore.</b>
body:
I just read that two days ago!!! I was going to post a theory on it!!! Same thing with Adeleas' killer!!!!<br /><br />Anyway, Doesnt it say in that same chapter &quot;Everyone knew Damane could read the future&quot; or something to that effect? My WH is at work...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 13:29:18
subject: <b>GG, I think it does say that somewhere...</b>
body:
However, that could be just an example of a supersticion held by the Seanchan society as a whole.  And it wouldn't be surprising if they did hold such a supersticion, since if things are as they are in the Westlands, then some <i>damane</i> probably <i>can</i> tell the future...sometimes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 13:43:51
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I think that rather than being able to make a Fortelling on demand; I think that the damane with the Talent just repeats a Fortelling that they may have had earlier and didn't tell anyone. Let's face it, the damane are about as oppressed as you can get. They are not allowed to speak, move, eat, sleep or do just about anything else unless ordered to. At least until given permission. Now a damane who spoke out of turn could be beaten, starved, have her tongue cut out, or many other unpleasantries. Once again, this would not encourage a damane to blurt out a Fortelling at the time it happens. I've gotta admit that a damane with the Foretelling Talent is too valuable to cut the tongue out of. So, the Sul'dam train them to store their Fortelling until asked. (Don't speak until directed to) This fits very well with the Seanchan High Blood and their version of propriety. Now Tuon is the daughter of the Empress and she has only one Fortelling damane. Don't you think she would have more if the Talent was prolific or trainable? I think it has always been a rare Talent and still remains so.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 15:19:39
subject: <b>Wait a moment...</b>
body:
Foretelling as we've seen it so far isn't something known for its controlled nature. Elaida remembers her Foretellings because she is told later what she said, but in LoC, one of the Accepted has a Foretelling but then doesn't remember what she said. When a Foretelling comes, it just does and the person starts speaking no matter what. This would be construed as disobedience by the Seanchan in all likelyhood, and do to the recurrent nature of the Talent, the trait would probably be bred out of the Damane, not amplified. Disobedience equals death blah blah blah, death means no kids, and we know from several hints that chaneling is at least partially genetic due to several &quot;breeding out the ability&quot; comments. So, I think damane with the Foretelling seem more a superstition like the fact that Aes Sedai can read thoughts or Myrdaal are invisible when they turn sideways... just a rumor that has grown out of misunderstanding.


created: 2002-06-27 16:18:49
subject: <b>Min's ability</b>
body:
I really like this theory, though I had a slightly different interpretation than the you.  When I first read this, I immediately thought of someone else who was often able to read &quot;fortunes&quot; on demand, Min.  Min is notorious for knowing who someone is going to marry, and is able to look on demand or remember previous viewings.  Min's talent seems rare; but Min herself learned that people just don't want to know their futures so maybe others in the Westlands have hid their abilities.  In Seanchan, a damane would be unable to hide much of anything given the brainwashing they go through.<br /><br />Like I said, good theory, I just came at it from a different angle.


created: 2002-06-27 16:23:11
subject: <b>comments to the comments...</b>
body:
sorry, I cannot help myself.<br /><br />RabidWombat, I quite agree that the Seanchan culture is very superstitious. However, I doubt Tuon having a talent such as you describe. I think if she did, it would have been mentioned in her PoV, since it would be a very unusual thing, even in Seanchan.<br /><br />Green Gaidin, I seem to remember somebody saying that... Sorry to have beat you to the theory-thing... <br /><br />Burr, I doubt what you said in the comment, since if Tuon was not &quot;sure&quot; that the damane's foretellings came through, she wouldn't have bothered asking or certainly not gotten angry. And though the Seanchan society is certainly very superstitious, it would be unlikely that the idea would spring up that they should be able to do it on command...<br /><br />Perrin51, I quite disagree with you. From what we have seen, Aes Sedai/channelers will often forget their foretellings after having said them, and so remembering them would be difficult, unless they have managed to attain some control over it... And the fact that they might be able to train it, does not mean that there would be more damane with the ability there, percentwise.<br /><br />Saidins Fury, the Seanchan do not let ANY damane have children, so they would be culling all channelers away, not just this kind.<br /><br />CharinStonebow, I like your theory... It is probably more probable than mine... however, why would Tuon think specifically about damane, since we know for a fact that this ability of Min's does not have anything to do with channeling whatsoever... perhaps, however, normal people would hide it there like here.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 18:33:24
subject: <b>it is an interesting concept....</b>
body:
but there is absolutely no evidence for it.<br /><br />For that reason, I am refraining from commenting anymore.  Why couldn't the Seanchan have learned the ability to foretell?  The Seanchan channelers do know some things that Aes Sedai don't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 20:12:48
subject: <b>Probably true.</b>
body:
I like this theory for several reasons. First of all Tuon said (or thought) she COMMANDED the da'mane to tell her future and comments on the fact that everyone knows that da'mane can tell the future. This implies that the da'mane has some control of her ability. I don't necessarily think that all da'mane can tell the future on command but some appear to be able to. Secondly, the da'mane is caned for telling Tuon of a future she didn't like hearing about. If the da'mane fortunetelling consisted of stories they made up that simple wouldn't happen. No fortuneteller would ever tell their customer anything they didn't want to hear. Especially if that customer could have them killed in an instant.<br /><br />In short, I think it's very likely that the Seanchan da'mane have discovered how to use Foretelling on demand. It's actually fairly consistent with the story so far. Channeling as a whole has deteriorated since the Age of Legends but almost every culture has some trick that wasn't even known during that time and new tricks seem to be discovered all the time. Warderbonding, Healing stilling/gentling etc... It's only fitting that the da'mane have discovered something like this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 20:17:14
subject: <b>Damane, a'dam and the Sul'dam</b>
body:
Aes Sedai do not train fortelling becuase of the same reason they do not train dreamers. There is no-one to teach the control of the talent.  So while Egwene went to the WO who would Elaida go to?  I think that since the a'dam links the pair on a mental level the Sul'dam would know the damane wasn't actually doing anything, just remembering something half forgotten, and beat her till she passed out.  Now on on the other hand, since a Sul'dam can reach the source through a damane, why can't she force the damane to do whatever it is that happens when a fortelling occurs?  Elaida doesn't know how to have a fortelling so it happens randomly, just like a wilder who doesn't know how to channel properly.  I think that the channeler can control the fortelling seeing as how the AS in the AoL were able to come up with enough of a peiced together story to make the Eye as shown in the flashback in TEoTW.


created: 2002-06-27 21:49:15
subject: <b>re: foretelling</b>
body:
I actually had this same idea though I have never bothered to post it.  For those who say foretelling can't be learned, we don't know that.  As far a person not remembering their foretelling we know that isn't true.  Granted Nicola couldn't remember her foretelling but she is only a novice.  Elaida remembers her first fortelling as an accepted and the one given in front of Alvarain so we know they can remember their foretellings.  <br /><br />Besides we have evidence that there have been foretellers who have a much better understanding of their tellings.  Can't remember her name, but the aessedai who knew that Tigraine needed to go to the waste and become an aiel maiden had much better control or power than Elaida when it comes to fortelling.  She knew the instant the dragon had been reborn, Elaida hadn't a clue despite the fact she was an Aessedai.  <br /><br />In addition when rand was reliving the aiel history we see an Aessedai who could see 3000 years into the future, that is how they knew they needed callandor.<br /><br />While this theory isn't necessarily true I do believe that foretelling is much better controlled in Seanchan then in the westlands.  Damane probably can't give a foretelling whenever they want to, but their is some evidence that the talent is stronger among the Seanchan.


created: 2002-06-27 22:23:32
subject: <b>i think this is...</b>
body:
just another mystery of the seanchan which RJ will reveal to us all in due time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 23:29:11
subject: <b>Tuon beating Lydia(sp?)</b>
body:
Just a thought, but even if it is well known among the Seanchan that Foretelling is a controlled Talent and there's no lying involved, that wouldn't preclude a High Blood member (ie, Tuon) from beating a damane who said something she didn't want to hear.  Sure it's irrational, but since when do humans (even Seanchan humans) behave rationally when told something they don't want to hear?  Therefore, the fact that Tuon, who has a bit of growing up to do (I mean, she's only 19 and superstitious to boot), beat her damane shouldn't necessarily be seen as evidence that Foretelling isn't controlled among the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 00:25:21
subject:
<b>Now look what you've made me do!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Read the theory, said 'Whatever', logged off, shut down the PC and went to watch a DVD. Twenty minutes into it, I clicked.<br /><br />Okay. From what the series has told us, the Foretelling is a random, uncontrollable and rare Talent that manifests itself in strange ways. Not learnable or controllable. However, we have encountered something that is.<br /><br />What did Verin tell Egwene about that allowed a channeler to see the future, however imperfectly? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What did we discover that can be learned by non-channelers and is relatively easy to learn? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What did the Wise Ones demonstate could predict the future by sending Moiraine a letter telling her things? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If you haven't figured this out by now, it's Dream Walking!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />This is a more likely way for many damane to be able to see the future than a remote possibility of learned Foretelling. And who knows, Foretelling may be a Dream related thing.<br /><br />That's my $2 for the moment. Back to my DVD and Bruce Willis beating the c*** out of someone.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> the Summoner of Souls <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> the Slayer of Worlds  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />  the Ultimate Reality <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 00:44:22
subject: <b>Doubtful</b>
body:
I myself found the fortune telling feat confounding and can come up with no reasonable theory for its existence other than that the damane must have developed a weave that temporarily duplicates Min's ability. I doubt that it is the Foretelling as it would be too rare and Tuon said that all damane could do it. As for now there is too much vagueness to have any idea how htis is accomplished. Perhaps we will learn more in Crossroads.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 02:23:44
subject: <b>An idea</b>
body:
Perhaps the fortelling ability is not more prevaliant in Seanchan as the rest as the world as perhaps it is the adam that causes the foretelling.? I had always assumed that the adam for whatever reason (they are a ter' angrel) caused foretellings at will or somethign like that? It wouldn't be the first time we have a ter' angrel that can predict your future. Who knows, maybe its a mixture....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 10:38:08
subject: <b>Dreaming.</b>
body:
We all know you can't Foretell on demand, but perhaps she (the damane) has some sort of Dreaming ability - less accurate and helpful, but more controlled?  They could set her to sleep, or toss her a sleep Ter'angreal, and she would foretell (lower case) the future through Dreaming.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 11:05:14
subject: <b>nice theory!</b>
body:
Tenshin and first punic war said that Foretelling could be controlled in the Age of Legends. Aes Sedai definitely didn't have absolute control, though.<br /><br />&quot;-What good is your Foretelling, if you cannot tell us when? [...]<br /> -I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell.&quot;<br />The Dedicated, The Shadow Rising<br /><br />I wonder what this means exactly. It can mean that the Foreteller was able to conrol it less than usual. On the other hand, probably the Pattern just made a Foretelling so that the Eye of the World could be made.<br /><br />But, there are a lot of things known today that didn't exist in the Age of Legends, so you may very well be right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 12:05:24
subject: <b>Tenshin is on to something.</b>
body:
Remember when Egwene was collared? She could sense metals, yes, but it was her sul'dam that actually searched for it through Egwene using her Talents. If that's true, then why can't suldam force the damane to Foretell? <br /><br />It's been awhile since tGH was reread, so I could be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 14:13:22
subject: <b>more comments</b>
body:
Matrimony Cauthon; the only &quot;evidence&quot; would have to be Tuon's thoughts, but you are right, there is no single way of interpreting them, but then again, when did you last see a definitive theory? I lean strongly towards the idea that only some have the ability to Foretell, much as only some have the ability to Dream, though. However, I believe Seanchan have gained some control over the ability of those who have it.<br /><br />Simply Ash; yes... you just managed to put my thoughts into words. I agree completely.<br /><br />Tenshin; it might be that the link thorugh the a'dam would tell the sul'dam taht the damane were not lying. the thought just occurred to me. And I like the idea that the sul'dam are the ones forcing the Foretelling, without actually having the ability themselves. That could explain the control.<br /><br />first punic war; you are right, some Aes Sedai have much better control than ... say Nicola, but the Foretelling still comes randomly in the Westlands (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> ), whileas it seems the Seanchan has found a way to control it, as you seem to agree.<br /><br />Comet Sedai; I think you are right. Tuon does think that she had no right to beat the damane, because she ordered it.<br /><br />TheUltimate Reality; I disagree. we only know that Foretelling is not controllable <i>in the Westlands</i>...that does not mean it is not controllable period. I really doubt that the damane used some kind of Dreaming to foretell whatever she foretold. It does not appear to be easier to force a Foretelling in a dream than otherwise. Also; don't you need the talent to be able to Dream as well?<br /><br />Scorp; I doubt the idea that they should have a weave that would duplicate Min's ability. Tuon, if I remember correctly, did not say that ALL damane could do it, but that ALL knew damane could do it (as in &quot;it was a think that some could do&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />Deathbone1; the a'dam causing Foretellings would be interesting, but I would lean more towards the Sul'dam being able to trigger the Foretelling.<br /><br />Your.MAster; we do not know that Dreaming is any more normlal than Foretelling.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 15:10:52
subject: <b>*Shrugs*</b>
body:
It was just an idea. The main problem that I have with the idea that the sul'dam uses a damene to fortell is that Tuon said &quot;Everyone knows damene can fortell&quot; or somethign to that effect. While obviously fortelling may be a tad bit stronger in the Seanchan, I find it hard to believe that every damene (I think that Tuon said all, I don't got my copy right here with me htoug) has the ability. That's why I was leaning more on the idea that an a'dam causes the person to fortell. *shrugs* who knows, RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 16:38:21
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Thanks for the crit.<br /><br />Just a couple of points in my defense here.<br /><br />I didn't mean using Foretelling in the Dream. The two are separate, but both offer a glimpse of the future of the Pattern. The Dreamwalking of the Wise Ones is fairly accurate as portrayed in the uplead to Rhuidean. (sic)<br /><br />As for Dreaming, the Aes Sedai think it is a Talent, but it's been proved repeatedly that it isn't. Every single Forsaken can at least enter T'a'R as evidenced by the number of meetings they hold there. Also, Moggy was regarded as a master of T'a'R with what she could do there. This, combined with the comment by Demandred on seeing Elayne with a 'training' ter'angreal, implies it was easy for a channeler to learn to Dream. Combine this with the number of Wise Ones who can dreamwalk, I think it was all of them and only some could channel (correct me please if I'm wrong), then it seems to be a more logical way. And the Wise Ones commonly use the dreamwalk to foretell the future.<br /><br />And for an empire that mass-produces ter'angreal and has a very good, yet flawed, understanding of channelling, it isn't that much of a stretch for them to have figured out how to harness and train a fairly common ability.<br /><br />Just my $2.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 17:00:45
subject: <b>Forsaken in The Dream...</b>
body:
TheUltimateReality: Don't most Forsaken visit the Dream in the flesh for their meetings or is this just something I've assumed? Their visits are usually by gateway which indicates being there in the flesh, not dreaming. Right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 17:10:21
subject: <b>A'dam and T'A'R</b>
body:
Yes, but remember that a damane might have the adam in her sleep, without a sul'dam to control the leash [i]in the dream[/i] the damane would not be able to do anything as the a'dam tends to prohibit anything a damane tries to do unless worn and commanded to.  I doubt a Sul'dam would degrade herself so far as to do something that a damane could do.  I think it would have to be fortelling because the T'A'R route just has too many holes.  Plus i think that the Dream my be blocked my the A'dam seeing as how Moghedien wasn't to be found in T'A'R when Nyn, Elayne and Egwene had her in Salidar, if she could Dream I would think that she would, and as Egwene showed us in the stone (when shielded) what is true for reality is not necessarily true in T'A'R.<br /><br />I think that the Fortelling is a trait that can be trained, Gitara seemed to have a reasonable amount of control seeing as how she told Luc to go to the blight, and knew the minute Rand was born.  Now imagine if she had someone to sit her down and say &quot;when you want to have a fortelling, do THIS&quot;   basically the a'dam makes it so you can do nothing but what the Sul'dam wants.  If the Sul'dam wants a reading the damane give a reading, just like as GG pointed out egwene had to point out the ore, and the Sul'dam knew she could sense it without Egwene having to say so.  The Sul'dam would know the damane was giving a true fortelling, or just fibbing.


created: 2002-06-29 05:28:34
subject: <b>more comments to the comments of the comments...er...</b>
body:
Deathbone1; the &quot;Everyone knew that <i>damane</i> could foretell the future&quot; (page 330 in the Orbit pb) does not nescesarily mean that all damane can Foretell, but that it is a trait found in damane. Or at least, that is how I see it.<br /><br />TheUltimateReality; I suppose I used the wrong words. What I meant to say was that in order to be able to Dream, like Egwene does, it is not enough to have access to TAR, you have to be a dreamer. The glimpses of the future one can get in TAR are Random even for the WO, and I doubt RJ would give us another people who would be better at that. It would be more his style to develop some other talent, I think. For instance Foretelling. I always thought the WOs had had the same Dream, as in Dreamt it like Egwene dreams that she will bond Gawyn etc. I do not think all WOs can Dreamwalk. But it is one of the abilities that will make you a WO. Channeling is another. And the training ter'angreals could easily have been used for training those who had the ability to start with. That is how I think it is with Foretelling in the Seanchan.<br /><br />Simply Ash; I think you are right about that. They are there in the flesh. And evil thing, used by the Shadow, remember? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Tenshin; I think you are right. I like the idea that the adam keeps you out of TAR.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 12:39:11
subject: <b>Partial consession</b>
body:
Meirin<br /><br />While I still don't agree, I don't have anything further to add to the debate in the way of proof or rebuttal. So I'll leave it at this, except maybe to write a theory on it and try get it posted. Otherwise, let's RAFO, if he ever tells us.<br /><br />It's really six of one and half a dozen of the other with this argument, the two possibilities are still equally unproven and likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 20:21:33
subject: <b>We DO have *slightly* more control over Dreams...</b>
body:
We know there are tonnes of ter'angreal related to dreaming, and we know that Egwene pretty much just has to fall asleep and &quot;record&quot; her dreams and she can get something out of it.  You can set a damane to sleep, therefore you have a modicum of control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 02:12:00
subject: <b>But Dreaming and Dreamwalking aren't the same</b>
body:
Dreaming is fortelling the future through dreams, ordinary ones. DreamWalking is entering and manipulating T'A'R. From the evidence, Dreaming is NOT common, and just comes. Not on demand. It is however accurate.<br />Dreamers can DreamWalk by themselves, no <i>ter'angreal</i> required. However, people can be DreamWalkers without being Dreamers, and are, as the skill is learnt (e.g. the Forsaken.) The most skilled Dreamwalkers are Dreamers as well (The WOs.) As for <i>damane</i>, they may be Dreamers, but they won't be DreamWalkers - they would do reconaissance, and no AS has met one in T'A'R. Also, let's remember that Egwene had manifested signs of Dreaming in TGH and the Seanchan paid no attention - you'd think they'd test for it if it's a rare and valued Talent, they tested for metal finding and that was rarer! I say the <i>damane</i> a)use a modified form of Foretelling or b)I don't know...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 17:46:04
subject: <b>Stress and Foretelling</b>
body:
Perhaps Foretellings are a function of need and stress.  While the Seanchan are not as good at the former, they are the supreme masters at the latter, especially in causing it to damnae.  Fakirs in India can do all sorts of tricks with their bodies since they have taught themselves how to master unconscious abilities, like sweat on command.  Perhaps, with proper training, the Seanchan have taught the damnae to be able to Foretell something on command.<br />Clearly, not every Foretelling is important.  Sometimes it may be, &quot;Watch out for the bedroom doorframe or you'll stub your toe.&quot;  Tuon's was probably, &quot;Doom, disaster, death AND even Marriage.&quot;


created: 2002-11-18 18:18:18
subject: <b>I agree and...</b>
body:
That was my immediate thought on reading that chapter as well, I'm just surprised there are so many comments to the contrary.<br /><br />Why couldn't the Seachan have developed more advanced Foretelling than the White Tower? Wise Ones are light years ahead in Dream Walking (including on-demand and interpretation), Windfinders are more adept at controlling weather, and Aes Sedai have much greater ability in healing than any other channelers, except the Kin, of course.<br /><br />Another possibility is that Tuon was linked with the a'dam, and so the damane could sense more about her than about any other random person...


created: 2002-12-29 01:50:07
subject: <b>Foretelling is trainable (probably)</b>
body:
well i'm too tired right now to say much... but i think that it is possible to train how to use fortelling on demand... only that you might not get what you expect.... just like Min's foretellings aren't always clear...<br /><br />oh and my bet on what Tuon's foretelling was somethink like this: You will bond to the Fox and kneel to the Dragon.<br /><br />which would be why she only offered to buy Mat after she saw the fox head ring....<br /><br />well good night


created: 2002-06-28 12:20:48
subject: <b>Exactly!</b>
body:
I never believed that it was a BOE. It always seemed a little TOO convinient that Fanin leaves just before the fog hits, and Mashadar was my first thought, too.<br /><br />Well done, although I suspect you may take a bit of flak for it. People just don't want to face up to the obvious<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 12:27:48
subject: <b>I thought it was obvious</b>
body:
Didn't Fain once say that his dagger was the evil in Shadar Logoth.  And didn't Moiraine once hint at it too in tEotW.  I don't remember the exact quotes, but I'm sure they exist.  Although I do have a tendency to change them in my head to make them mean what I want them to.  Otherwise my theories would never work out.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-06-28 12:28:37
subject: <b>Fain</b>
body:
I agree with your theory as I think Fain has the ability to create the EVIL KILLING FOG. <br /><br />Also on a side note.  Remember when Rand and Mat were leaving Rhudean?  They were attacked by a BOE.  At first Rand and Mat used conventional weapons.  Which was to no avail because as soon as they stuck a sand creature down it reformed instantly.  To escape alive Rand started using the power to destroy large #'s of the sand MONSTERS at once.  So we see here the power having an effect as well as required to escape alive.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />Who said we'd discussed everything?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 12:44:37
subject: <b>Excellent theory</b>
body:
I heard Rand (or whoever it was) say &quot;It's a Bubble of Evil&quot;&lt;paraphrased&gt; and took that at face value.  I think you've uncovered a classic Jordan-ism, showing once again that he never makes omnipotent characters.  If this is the case, Fain will either make the fog again in the future or taunt Rand (more likely) about his powers and how he made the fog.


created: 2002-06-28 12:59:32
subject: <b>Then how would you explain ...</b>
body:
... the killing fog in the Rahad where Fain was not present?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 15:32:47
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I actually think it was a BOE.  The reason Fain could go through it was because he is a mixture of 2 evils, and has limited control of both the evils.  Therefore the BOE would have most likely seen fain as an ally.<br /><br />Of course I will probably be prooven wrong in the next book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-28 18:21:00
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
Fain manafesting Mashadar in the small easy to control portions makes sense, it probably still follows him. (makeing is one thing, unmaking is very different)<br /><br />on a related note, Machin Shin.  Fain affected it to follow Rand wherever he went.  would it not have been at the waygate in Shadar Logoth when he was nearby?  did he destroy it when he ran sadin through the city to cleanse it?  he certainly destroyed the city.<br /><br />ofcourse we may or may not find out in november<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 22:10:59
subject: <b>Dithyramb,</b>
body:
the fog in the Rahad may well have been a normal fog which was then affected by a BOE.  My whole point about the Mashadar-fog thing is that it appeared suddenly, in the middle of the day, in a confined space.  Whether or not this was the case in Ebou Dar, I dont' know.  We didn't actually 'see' that, did we- someone just mentioned it as having happened.  <br /> Another comment in regard to these responses, if the dagger was the evil in SL, then why was Mashadar still present after Mordeth and the daggger had gone?  It seems as though the evil can infest a place so strongly that it becomes linked to a particular place.  Mind you, there is the fact that Rand considered the evil in SL to be a counter-balance for the evil of the Taint.  Does this mean it was deliberately created as such, or is that just the way the Pattern weaves?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 01:09:56
subject: <b>Wow. I must say this is quite an impressive and original idea.</b>
body:
.....And it makes some kind of sense too. It does seem rather convienent for PF that that killer fog came up at that particular time. I'd say it's a possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 02:44:17
subject: <b>Did anyone actually read that chapter?</b>
body:
The fog was NOT created in a confined space. It appeared OUTSIDE the tent and surrounded the area before using a pseudopod to yank the tent into the air. The fog is completely consistent with the other bubbles of evil, people got sliced and diced from improbably sources that included fog! There were also manifestations similiar to the one in Rhuidean that wasnt present at other times.  The bubbles of evil do not have a guide on how to do evil. Whether objects fly or people spontaneously die its all the same. Why dont we just say the first one in the stone of tear wasnt one because solid objects were used to create other objects (cards and mirrors) instead of everything flying around. The only reason to think this was Mashadar is Fain's presence. Although it IS possible that Fain had some doing in it I believe Fain had no role in it for several reasons.<br /><br />First, it was written that Fain is growing in power. Well, for his first 'trick' it was pretty frickin huge! Remember how long they ran to get out of it, and how large its front was? This was no small apparition that appeared out of a small building!<br /><br />Second, it was day. Mashadar NEVER goes out in day time. <br /><br />Third, if you were Fain would you hang around a channeler who recognized you and could kill you quite quickly with easy and anonimity (sp?). The fog provided him the perfect cover. <br /><br />Fourth, as for Fain not fearing the fog- first, hes crazy! and second he hates anything to do with the Dark One and probably did everything he could to hinder it, except that it gave him perfect cover for scratching Rand. Third, it FAIN! he cant die by something as easy as a stupid bubble!<br /><br />Get your heads on straight!<br /><br />Now, it is still possible for Fain to have summoned the fog but I find it doubtful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 04:32:03
subject: <b>Scorp, you're partially right...</b>
body:
..that it IS an impressive ability if it happens to have been Fain's.  Of course, the exact nature of his abilities has been a mystery since he started pegging Myrrdraal into the ground, and killing Trollocs without the dagger in his possesion (both in TGH).<br />  Certainly, I shouldn't have used the phrase 'confined space' in my comment up there - 'limited area' would have been better.  But I still think that had it been early in the morning on a cold day, with fog everywhere, then there would be no doubt about it being a BOE.  But that wasn't the case, so I tend to connect this thing to Fain.<br />  You make a very good point about Mashadar not coming out during the day, though, and I can't answer that one.  As for the rest, I can't see any reason why a BOE wouldn't also be dangerous to Fain.  As you pointed out, his and the DO's evil are inimical to one another, so I would have thought it would have tried to kill Fain just as much as anyone else in the place.<br />  Whether or not it would have been able to do so is another question.  I've just re-read TGH and came across a number of subtle suggestions that things might actually get WORSE if Fain is killed, almost as though Mordeth might do an Obi-Wan Kenobi and become more powerful than we could possibly imagine.  I'll see if I can find the exact quotes.  They were only hints, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 17:56:55
subject: <b>I agree with Scorp (although with less vigor)</b>
body:
I think this theory is another example of someone out thinking themselves.  <br /><br />I am grateful for another PoV, don't get me wrong.  I am not criticizing the author;  rather I find it disconcerting that so many people think this is the best invention since sliced bread.  <br /><br />I think I shall continue to think it is a bubble of evil because the objections stated in this theory aren't as strong as the auther thinks, IMHO.<br /><br />There is no evidence that Padan Fain was immune to the Fog.  More than one person escaped the fog without harm nor weapons.  Besides, the dagger itself might effect the apparations.  <br /><br />As far as this BoE being different from others.  First, they are definitely getting stronger.  Second, there have been rumors of mysterious killer fogs (in Rahad for instance).  Killer fog BoEs may have happened but off camera if you will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 21:42:26
subject: <b>I agree....I suppose</b>
body:
The arguments either way are both circumstantial and going off of &quot;well, what if this is true?&quot; scenarios. I believe that it was Fain's powers that crafted the fog simply b/c I don't like the idea of this just being ta'veren twisting chance and pulling a BoE to Rand. It bothers me as a writer when RJ pulls those easy outs in the story a la his ta'veren...I prefer to think he's showing us a new level of Fain's ability, rather than using coincidence and luck. Meh. But I suppose we'll find out eventually...hopefully in November<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 22:46:14
subject: <b>Why does Fain never get the credit he deserves????</b>
body:
The man is one dangerous mofo! The DF network has been sending legions of assassins and shadowspawn to kill him since tGH, and Moridin personally sends Slayer after him (who, might I add hasnt been able to kill him since tSR). <br /><br />The foreshadowing of Fain and Ishy/Moridin's wounds fighting each other seems to show that Fain and Moridin will off each other, unless you all can think of saomething else that means? Mabye RJ just threw that in there? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To those who say that the Fog in the Rahad has to be explained, answer me this: How do we know that Fain wasn't there? Can you tell me? The man has COMPLETE control over the Ways, so why couldnt he get there and back?<br /><br />As to why he was there, don't ask me, but you can't just discount that possibility.<br /><br />I could be wrong, but when was there a fog accompanying a proven BoE other than the sandstorm of Rhuidean (I cant remember any fog)? Why is that one of it's defining characteristics? There was no fog in Tear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 10:30:55
subject: <b>Fog not Mashadar, yet possibly Fain-made...</b>
body:
Mashadar is an entity linked specifically to Shadar Logoth.  It is a creature created of the hate and suspicion of the residents of Aridhol.  It CANNOT leave Shadar Logoth.  On the other hand, the evil that led to Mashadar's creation resides in Fain and the dagger.  <br /><br />The fog could possibly have been created by Fain.  I do not personally believe that Fain could create something of that size.  The biggest problem I have is that the fog near Cairhien acted nothing like Mashadar other than it was a fog-like phenomena.  Yet, nothing says the fog had to be like Mashadar to have been created by Fain.  I will continue to lean toward the BoE theory as to the creation of the fog until more evidence to the contrary is presented.


created: 2002-07-01 12:00:13
subject: <b>Ta'vereness</b>
body:
Everyone seems to be forgetting that being a Ta'veren attratcs bubbles of evil to you (not exactly, but close enough).  That day Rand was being a particularly strong Ta'veren, which is why he went to the rebel camp in the first place.<br /><br />So it follows that a Bubble of Evil would pop on his thread on a day that he was being very ta'verenish.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 13:40:18
subject: <b>Why do people want things to match 100%?</b>
body:
This is a changing world. Just because something does one or two things different to something else, doesn't mean that it is completely wrong.<br /><br />When I read this section, I was thinking Fain was up to something right until Rand mentioned the BoE. Then, like any stupid reader, I read infallibility into Rand's statement. That, I admit now after reading the books a couple of times, is wrong. Each character speaks only from personal experience, and as far as Rand knows, something like that is a bubble of evil.<br /><br />Two quick points on the whole theory.<br /><br />One, Fain is powerful, very powerful, and judging from his abilities to create illusions and control Fades, why can't he have done this. Having spent time in Shadar Logoth, he could have learned the nature of Mashadar. If not directly, then from Mordeth. A few modifications to whatever it is that he does, to fix things that that pesky coming out at night bit, and there's a nice weapon.<br /><br />Secondly, I was never convinced that what happened in the Rahad was a BoE anyway. A simple description of a fog in which people got torn apart and dismembered. Sounds like our friend the gholem doing some hunting at the time. The timing of the events were correct for the gholem to have been in Ebou Dar anyway. There was nothing else to indicate a BoE, they tended to be generalized disasters, not specialized.  The rest could be accounted for by Mat being taveren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 22:00:12
subject: <b>The dust monsters in Rhuidean...</b>
body:
weren't a BOE. I believe this was a ward placed on Rhuidean to prevent anyone who hadn't passed through the rings from escaping alive.


created: 2002-07-11 17:33:53
subject: <b>BOE as a literary device</b>
body:
BOE are used by Jordan as a literary device.  Fain's powers in WH didn't do anything nearly as critical as the four BOEs we have seen.  They have all been turning points of the largest sort.<br />The first occured in Tear.  Rand, Mat and Perrin were all settling in.  The Pattern wanted them to move.  A BOE attacked each and in some way influenced them to move.  In Healing Rand, it forced Rand to confront an angry Moraine, prompting him to act.  It made Perrin decide to get Faile away from Tear.  It made Mat seek out Egwene for answers, leading to the twisted doorframe.<br />The second occured in Rheudian, just after Mat got the memories that made him uber-general and Rand got the markings that made him the Car'a'carn and the largest and best unconvientional army.  (Seanchan are a conventional army.)  It also was just before Lanfear and Asmodean Traveled with a caravan into the Waste looking for Rand.<br />The third was the attack of the knick-knacks in Salidar.  This is a little less important at the time, but leads to great consequences.  It revealed the nerveness of the inner circle running Salidar and made Nynavae mad enough to yell at them the next day, which prevented them from heading to Ebou Dar until Mat got there.  <br />Fourth saw Rand wounded and out of action just as he had declared war on Illian and Sammael, destroyed Caroline Damodred's army of rebels, revealed the potential loyalty of Darlin, and forced the Aes Sedai to start accepting Asha'men as their equal in some ways.  <br /><br />No way something as minor as the killing fog was as simple as Fain's powers (read as explaination not as simple as Fain willed it to happen).  A BOE singles big changes in Randland.  When you see one, it means RJ is shaking things up BIG TIME.


created: 2002-09-19 22:37:12
subject: <b>Sitting on the fence</b>
body:
I have long suspected this, but I have had some of the same problems with this theory that others have brought up also.  I think chief on this list is the idea that Fain would have used this power instead of that illusion when trying to kill Rand in that town (name escapes me) where channeling can not be done.  Of course, I suppose one could make the argument that he figured, &quot;been there done that, didn't work, try something new&quot;.  All in all, however, I think that this theory has a lot of merit and should be considered worthy of our attention, or at least interest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace is only found through victory, and fools aspire to peace and freedom without cost.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 16:57:52
subject: <b>Fain illusion power</b>
body:
could it be that fain just cut to innocent people with the knife to fool rand into thinking his ashaman were dead.  He could have did that to get the better of Rand by using the Ashaman later on.


created: 2003-01-15 04:26:28
subject: <b>Something to consider...</b>
body:
Though the glossary is known to be wrong on occasion I think this can be taken as evidence the fog was, in fact, a BoE &quot;The White Lions were destroyed by a 'bubble of evil'&quot;  (TPoD Glossary,Hanlon, Daved entry)


created: 2003-09-12 18:03:09
subject: <b>It was mashadar (or at least something very like it)</b>
body:
If it wasn't then why did it not attack Fain. If you remember correctly he lept out of the fog to give Rand that nasty knife wound. A bubble of evil would not have attacked everyone else in the camp and left Rand alone


created: 2008-07-19 10:24:29
subject: <b>and hence.</b>
body:
Fain&#180;s yell (to the fog things, I assume) on the lines of &quot;Leave him alone, he&#180;s mine&quot;<br /><br />(Didnt the evil overlord list command EO wannabes NEVER to utter those words?


created: 2002-06-28 12:24:28
subject: <b>That Vandene comment puzzled me, too.</b>
body:
Although I personally believe that the 2 dawns will be a result of the AoL style Breaking free of the DO. Remember when Rand seen it through his ancestor's eyes? The bore is drilled and the shadow turns the sky black for a minute as he 'broke free'? <br /><br />If Rand breaks the seals, which he will, then we'll see that again when Rand scraps it out w/ the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 12:33:29
subject: <b>Not sure</b>
body:
if I agree.  You have been paying attention to the little things and it has resulted in something original.  Keep up the good work.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 12:48:14
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I like it, not necessarily for the twice dawns the day bit; but Vandene's comment and Moraine's later reaction.  This is exactly the sort of thing author's love to do, and nothing else Vandene said in that section was potentially cryptic enough to be it.<br /><br />Good work!


created: 2002-06-28 12:58:30
subject: <b>Interesting Idea!!!</b>
body:
I think the eclipse is the most likely explanation.  I do think that Dragonmount will eventually erupt.  You do realize that there would be one very interesting consequences to this. Tar Valon would be toast!!!  Maybe after TG, it'll be rebuilt and renamed Great Arvalon, hmmmm.  <br /><br />I don't know why I never considered the possibility that it'd explode.  If you think about it, it's so obvious.  Actually, RJ has said he's known the ending since the beginning.  I also got the impression that the ending would tie in with the beginning, and DM erupting again would be interesting.<br /><br />The more I think about it, the more I think this theory is correct.  Bear with me, I'm typing while I think.  I don't think that Dragonmount erupting would eclipse the sun at Shayol Ghul.  It's too far away.  However, it would most definitely block out the sun at TV.  Now who says that TG has to take place at SG.  Or, more specifically, who says that it will ONLY take place at SG.  What if, TG takes place at TV AND SG similtaniously!  Rand could easily travel to SG when necessary, and there have been plenty of hints that TV is going to be destroyed.  (Although, I will admit that it could just as easily be an assumption on my part, but a couple of cultures have talked about salting the ground where TV stands.  Seanchen and Hawking for example.)  <br />Think of the parallels between DM and SG.  It could be an interesting twist to the last battle.  I've convinced myself, this theory is correct.  Thank you Shadar Aman for getting me thinking.  That's not an easy task to accomplish.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!


created: 2002-06-28 13:35:28
subject: <b>&quot;Twice dawns the day&quot;</b>
body:
Good theory.  Actually, excellent theory.<br /><br />I think that the &quot;Twice dawns the day&quot; part of the prophecy is one of the best lines in the entire book.  There have been so many theories about it, many of them viable:<br /><br />Dragonmount erupts (this theory)<br />Solar eclipse<br />Balefire/time travel<br />Tel'Aran'Rhiod time thingy<br />Parallel universe shifts<br />Rand is Resurrected<br />Rand fakes death<br />Shadow breaks loose for a little, blackens the sky (above)<br />Two Rands (or a LTT death or something similar)<br />Two failed assassination attempts (&quot;...the day when he SHALL die&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />and much, MUCH more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 22:27:12
subject: <b>Vandene's comment-nothing to do with Dragonmount</b>
body:
I've just recently read that passage about Vandene's comment and Moiraine's reaction, and came to a different conclusion as to what the answer to her question might have been.<br /> If you look at the Icon at the heading of that chapter, it shows Fain's dagger, and yet they only discuss SL breifly, and neither Fain nor the dagger make any further appearance.  This was my first clue.<br />  I then re-read Moiraine's recounting of Fain's tale from the end of TEOTW and realised that she hadn't yet come to the conclusion that Mordeth had escaped SL in Fain.  Moiraine and Siuan's conversation in the beginning of TGH reinforces that idea, both are talking as though Mordeth is still trapped in SL, and no-one realises how dangerous Fain is.<br /> However, in the very last chapter of TGH, when Moiraine catches up with Rand outside of Falme, she reveals that Fain has indeed been infested by Mordeth, and is now far more dangerous than had been thought.  IMO, that's the answer she was given, which she couldn't really think of.  Sorry, that's a bit off the topic for this theory.<br />  Good theory, though, and it does seem like Dragonmount's a volcanoe.  Well spotted!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-29 02:20:55
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
I think Dragonmount is more of a literary device for Robert Jordan to call upon to express the darkness lying over Tar Valon. It is obviously a volcano, but if it does erupt during the last battle it probably will have little to do with anything significant as the battle will most likely take place much farther north. <br /><br />By the way, a cloud of ash blocking out the sun for THOUSANDS of miles around? ROLFMAO! Thats one really high cloud! Perhaps a hundred or so, but not a thousand. The ash, as with Mt. St. Helens, may travel around the world, but it didnt block out the sun for thousands of miles around. The most likely cause of an eruption would be another breaking of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


