# w_comment

created: 2001-07-03 08:13:10
subject:
<b>Ahhh, quotes, much better <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I think the confusion here is with the word &quot;focus&quot;  Angreals act like a magnifying glass, increasing the amount of power one can use(or increasing the focus of one's eyesight for the magnifying glass).  That is where the confusion lies.  Moiraine and Egwene are just using these things as, like they said, aids in concentration.  Apparently the thing they are trying to do requires a lot of effort and concentration, but NOT more of the power.  I do not think that Egwene will be making any angreal.  I think once Elayne has enough time to study an angreal she will easily be able to produce it, without any help from Egwene or Moiraine.  I could of course be really wrong here.  And you're welcome for the direction.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 17:48:25
subject: <b>You may be onto something</b>
body:
I would like to point out that I didn't mean to berate your thoery, if I came off as insulting I do apologize.<br /><br />   With that little bit of back up info I think you may have something. Making angreal may involve some kind of mental trick akin to what Moiraine and Egwene do with staves and stones.<br /><br />   Of course there is one small quip, when Moiraine used that staff in the ways, she discarded it because it was 'tainted'. If it doesn't use the power itself, and is only a conduit for mental clarity and focus that doesn't make sense. That like saying that you science book getting burned in a bong related fire accident, makes your notes taken from that book invalid.<br /><br />   I'd like to know how a concetration aid that doesn't use the power can be tainted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:25:26
subject: <b>Forget it Savaunt</b>
body:
Awww forget it Savaunt, I wasn't talkin' about you, sorry if I gave you the wrong impressinon<br /><br />Kid B<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 17:16:01
subject:
<b>for those who are discussing the original post! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
u got somethign but...<br />if the stone is focusing her power then it means that it's giving egwene more power in a field...in htis case it is listening right?<br />so that means that it's like an angreel only on a maller scale!<br />but angreel are made from the one power right? then we can guess that its only giving the user more power!<br />ok now...rand is very close 2 discovering how 2 make a wel right? <br />actualy he already did...the only thing he needs 2 do 2 actualy create a well is 2 create an object from the one power that will take-give the power it recived-needs...<br />so it can't be that hard cause since rand cleared the source with mostly saidar then he could create a female angreel/well with saidin and saidar...<br /><br />wait a sec...u do know that a well and angreel work the same way right?<br />cause if u use the one power u can channel but have a well on u that means that u could use both what u got AND what u got in the well...<br />so basicaly the only difference is that a well can also store power and that it has a limited amount (the amount that it can store isn't related 2 the power of the user...)<br /><br />so i guess that they are closer hten they know...<br /><br />and another point is that they can currently only duplicate terangrials (yea yea sp's!) and not in a good enough way!<br />maybe they will discover how 2 make those in the next book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />RAFDO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 19:22:55
subject: <b>confused</b>
body:
-confused-<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-07 02:02:24
subject: <b>A form of meditation...</b>
body:
Using a stone/gem/staff to focus the power is similar to someone meditating.  When some people meditate, they fucus on something to get them started, such as deep breathing, or looking at flowing water etc.  These objetcs that Egwene and Moiraine use could be just like that, something that allows them to concentrate on what they want to do.


created: 2001-07-07 03:42:15
subject: <b>But the tainted staff</b>
body:
But what about the tainted staff.  She's used the staff in TEOTW directly as a tool of the one power (her sprinkling weird stuff with it to make their scent go another direction)<br /><br />Plus when she uses it in the ways to blast the black wind with the liquid fire or what ever it was, the staff gets all blackened and tainted from the taint of saidin in the ways.<br /><br />So if it's just a tool to focus concentration, why is it being used directly in conjunction with her weavings, and why did it become tainted from the ways.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS I have to thank Lord Savaunt for the staff evidence, I hadn't even thought of it before he mentioned it.


created: 2001-07-27 09:05:37
subject: <b>She used her power...</b>
body:
She can do it without her staff, she bf'd bel'al without the staff right? Maybe the staff is just for her protection, I can't imagine if she blasted the mashadar without the staff, maybe she will be the one tainted with that.<br /><br />ok, I just felt I have to post something, this really isn't serious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 22:32:52
subject: <b>Hey you!</b>
body:
Go sit in the corner! Bad Boojo, bad! GO AND SIT IN THE CORNER!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Asian pride world wide!&quot;<br />&quot;Go for the eyes Boo!&quot;-Minsc from Baldur's Gate<br />&quot;They need a smiley wearin' one of those asian field worker hats...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> my friend bobby<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> WOT4life!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> go Mat!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-26 17:36:34
subject: <b>tainted staff</b>
body:
I cannot completely remember, but i think Moiraine only said that the STONE was not an angreal.  I do not think she said anything about the staff.  It could be an angreal, but maybe not one of the Tower ones.  I mean, there are stashes of angreal everywhere, like in Tear, in Illian, in Ebu Dar, so on and so forth.  There's nothing to say she couldn't have picked up an angreal on her travels, because i seem to remember her saying she spent many years travelling and searching for Rand.  She might of found her staff then.<br /><br />Of course, if she <i>did</i> say that it wasn't an angreal, that messes up this whole post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 20:55:07
subject: <b>By the way....</b>
body:
Why is this one in Humerous theories anyways?  I don't think it was meant to be funny..........was it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-19 10:55:39
subject: <b>Moiraine's Staff</b>
body:
THere appears to be some misunderstandings about Moiraine's staff. She does us it merely for focusing, because she did the same trick of shooting fire out of something using just an ordinary stick. I believe it was in the Dragon Reborn's camp at the beginning of Book 3.<br /><br />As for why she discarded it after leaving the Ways, the Power is tainted in the Ways and since she used the staff as a focus for her weavings, the staff was burnt on one end, thus ruined and who would want to hold on to a ruined staff.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-01 00:24:18
subject: <b>moiranes staff (and her little riock)</b>
body:
ok people, move along.<br /><br /><br />if you think about it, it's obvious. it's a lot easier to think about something shooting out of the end of a stick, rather than out of the air itself, therefore would it not be easier to channel it that way?<br /><br /><br />the stone? someone already said it, moirane comments that that was her first use of the power, so moirane was a wilder, and her block was that she can't do that without a rock or gem.  (i'd say a gem)<br /><br /><br />what the hell is this doing in the humour section???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 00:27:14
subject: <b>Comment Titles are Pretentious</b>
body:
A bold theory, by my thinking. It seems more likely that not everything is bound into the metaphysical aspects of the use of the One Power; these 'focus' items are likely just psychological, like the mental petals and flowers the Aes Sedai teach. The mental can certainly effect Channeling...a hidden doubt can cripple you at the worst moment; a sudden terror can burn you out. If someone *thinks* a stone is calming them when they focus through it, and the belief in it is strong enough, it will most likely calm them, and thereby aid most things that have need of the mind.<br /><br />My opinion on when we'll see angreal created, *if* we see angreal created, won't be happening until more male and female Channelers are Linking in force...certainly, at least, we won't see sa'angreal made (and thats a big if, likely) until that point is reached...


created: 2003-05-23 12:43:16
subject: <b>O...K...</b>
body:
How is this humorous?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-18 03:13:37
subject: <b>Why she needs a staff</b>
body:
In one conversation they talk about how some people learn weaves while doing a certain action like nobody really knows how to make and shoot a fireball without some sort of throwing hand gesture...so im guessing that Moraine learned the fire-shooting trick while using a stick so she was stuck with that for using the fire weave. Since Aviendha learned fireballs in the Three-Fold Land she doesnt need a throwing gesture. When they escape through the messed up gateway she just rapid fires them.  I would give book and page numbers if I had the books sorry. I think its right after Eboui Dar gets taken over.


created: 2001-07-01 21:28:03
subject: <b>HELLO?</b>
body:
How bout convincing me that book 9 was not really from robert Jordan? That's about the only way that you can debunk the the defunct Taimendred theory. Winters Heart left no doubt that Taim and Demandred aint the same guy. Thus RJ has already made it painfully obvious that this theory is false.<br /><br />   Go re-read WH if you don't believe me. By the way I think we need to make it mandatory that any new Taim/Demandred theory had to address the fact that book 9 debunked it. If someone can't get around Winters Heart then their theory should just rest in the dust.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 21:33:34
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
Come on, was this theory really necesary?  It's almost 100% certain that Taim is not Demandred.  Demandred saw one of the Asha'man at the end of WH, Flinn if I remember correctly, and didn't have a clue who he was.  Flinn was one of the first to join the ranks.  I think if Demandred was Taim, he would remember that.  I seriously think that Jordan put that little scene in the book to quench these ridiculous Taimandred theories.  Quit trying to prove it, it's futile now.  Nuff said, Buh-Bye.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 01:19:30
subject: <b>The so Called Aiel</b>
body:
I just reread the series and was looking for proof of Taim and who he really was.  It was the &quot;so called Aiel&quot; comment that really makes me believe that Taim is Demandred.


created: 2001-07-02 01:44:57
subject: <b>You people are in absolute, total DENIAL!!!</b>
body:
You have got to be kidding! lol  Seriously.  You can't be serious.  NOTHING in Winters Heart comes close to proving anything.  Where did you get that conclusion.  Jordan hinted at first, back around the first third of LoC about Taim.  But now!  He's beating us with a fence post.  I'm fairly new to this Wot site, but on half of the other sites I used to frequent, the taimandred issue was a foregone conclusion.  And this was years ago!  We were discussing what Demazrim's next move was gonna be.  This was before the pile of evidence grew into a mountain.  I mean look at it, Kenco made a big list of stuff and still only covered about one fourth of it.  Honestly the Taim theory page is so full of wild speculation that its amazing.  People just start making stuff up!<br /><br />ok lets try something.  If this is so obvious as you say, give me one half-decent reason that LTT goes absolutely NUTS almost every time the word Taim is even mentioned.  In LoC alone I've looked at all of them and seven out of eight are directly Taim related.  Why is it so absolutely disproportionate!?<br /><br />Come on people, lol I've heard the lame blow off that &quot;LTT is totally insane and rants about killing everybody not just taim&quot; so many times I'm gonna be sick.  Count 'em up! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  and thats just one!


created: 2001-07-02 02:03:04
subject: <b>Manyard, i can't agree more</b>
body:
Taking a purely statistical view, given all the points of evidence either way, the odds of Taimandred are about 95%. Thats 20 to 1.<br /><br />I think most people can see the stuff that is too obvious, like Flinn in book 9, but they can't really get a handle on the more subtle stuff in books 6 and 7.<br /><br />And to all those people worried about Flinn,<br />Fedwin Morr was there as early as Flinn was in book 6, and when Taim saw him in book 8 he called him &quot;this one&quot;. Rand then says &quot;Fedwin Morr, Taim. Not 'this one'&quot; <br />as if RJ wanted to make clear that Taim in fact didn't know his name.<br /><br />Demandred also doesn't come close enough to see the ageless face of the Aes Sedai with Flinn, so he obviously didn't get a very good look at him.


created: 2001-07-02 02:08:25
subject: <b>Taim is not Demandred</b>
body:
I will address the 'no proof' in Winter's Heart.  If Demandred trained the asha'man, he has got to be able to recognise Flinn when he sees him, but he didn't, and on the flip side of the coin, which hasn't been mentioned, is that Flinn obviously did not recognise him in return either, else he would have mentioned it to the others and Cadsuane would have known at the end, and would have thought it, instead of which she just mentioned forsaked and Osan'gar, no mention of Taim whatsoever, pretty good proof that Taim was never there, so couldn't be Demandred.  The only flaw in this is if you argue that Demandred had an illusion up to be Taim, but obviously this isn't the case, as rand and the others would have sensed it sooner or later.<br />So Taim isn't Demandred, end of story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 03:35:24
subject: <b>'nother point</b>
body:
Another point to ponder:<br />Taim is undeniably smart, so if he was there you'd think he'd know that if there are men channeling, that they are asha'man, and he knows that there are only 3 that would be with Rand: Flinn, Eben and Jahar, of which Flinn is definately in the old category, but the others weren't, so if there was an old man channeling at him, it must be Flinn, yet Demandred did not register him as such.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 03:36:22
subject: <b>If Taim isn't Demandred, then monkey's fly out of my ass</b>
body:
Come on! it's been obvious forever that taim was Demandred.<br /><br />And I really hate it whenever anyone plays this card to solve an argument, but here I go; <br /><br />We have two men who are never seen in the same place together, but are so closely related in features that it can't be a coincidence.  The possibilty that Demandred had the slayer treatment is very possible.<br /><br />I personally do not believe this however, I think Robert Jordan just got really pissed off that everybody already knew that Taim was Demandred, and decided to write a book that had several examples to throw us all off.<br /><br />Well I for one will not abandon the faith.  Taim is Demandred, and if he isn't then every morning monkeys fly out of my ass.  That's all I have to say<br /><br />Kidblondeel


created: 2001-07-02 03:57:38
subject: <b>Well kidblondeel...</b>
body:
I really hate to say this kid, but everything you've said at this sight has been crap.  I seriously think you have almost no clue as to what is really happening in these books.  Your theories suck, and your comments are always bogus.  So, taking all this in, I hope you enjoy your monkeys.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 07:28:42
subject: <b>no no no not taimandred</b>
body:
Right there are 3 points which disprove the theory<br />1: Taim told the ashaman to kill Rand then later Demandred also did ????(W.H) if they were the same person then why not hide the fact that Taim wanted him dead by just telling the ashaman as demandred.<br />2:All this stuff about Taim being angry at Rand just like Demandred is rubbish , why could Taim not just be angry, he`s been channeling longer than Rand and seems to be under the impression that he could have been Dragon Reborn <br />3: these so called Aiel : is not another good point , if Taim speaks the old tongue ( he might he came up with M`hael) then he`ll know that Aiel means dedicated which is why he might phrase a statment like &quot; these so called dedicated&quot;         <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />I hope this can be layed to rest as I honestly think if in the age of legends some of lews therins allies were turned to the dark one it`s intirely possible that perhaps with the current death count for forsaken running so high that Ishmmael may have started recruiting new forsaken<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 09:20:46
subject: <b>WH Proof: Taimandred debunked</b>
body:
First of all, 95% mentioned above as 20:1 odds is actually 19:1.<br /><br />Okay, in WH from Taim's POV we see that he recalls talking to Demandred.  So, how are you pro-Taimandreds going to debunk that?<br /><br />Before WH, I was in denial.  I saw all these good Taimandred points with nothing to fight back with, yet I wouldn't turn.  In WH, I am now on the side with the 19:1 odds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 10:26:02
subject: <b>WHAT?????</b>
body:
We see from Taim's POV that he remembered talking to Demandred??  Which version of WH did you read??  I don't remember ever seeing a POV from Taim.  Ever.  I am currently reading WH(AGAIN) and I will see if I can find this mysterious reference of yours.  Oh and by the way, Taim isn't Demandred.  Taim is Demandred's proxy.  This is the biggest Red Herring EVER and so many people feel for it.  Sad sad sad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 17:13:34
subject: <b>Your.master</b>
body:
I think you might have confused the Dark Friend Ashamon in Far Madding with Taim. He recalled that Demandred had told him that if he failed to kill Rand that he'd have better luck facing Taim again than letting Demandred find him.<br /><br />   This can lead to two things: 1. Taim is Demandred proxy, or 2: Taim is Osangars proxy. Either way it's hard to reconcile with the Taim is Demandred thoughts. <br /><br />   By the way the scene in PoD was to show that while Taim thinks of the Ashamon as faceless tools to be used and thrown away, Rand sees them as people to be cared for.<br /><br />   Again if you're going to come in with any Taimedred stuff, be prepared to talk about book 9 from the git go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 19:41:47
subject: <b>Cocky theory posters = Anoyed RJ = WH Discrepencies</b>
body:
Sauvant, don&#8217;t you think RJ keeps track of the ongoing controversies that make theory-post web sites like these so popular!  And do you think he&#8217;s pleased when some well meaning but (possibly) overconfident fan ascertains one of his more mysterious plot threads and proves it online with almost scientific percision.  Hell no!  Writers hate it when their readers take them for granted.  I would put forward that RJ might just have been irritated enough at some of the claims that tLoC made Taimandred a &#8220;Foregone Conclusion&#8221; to throw us a couple curve balls when we were sure we would hit a grand slam.  <br />I think he deposited such discrepancies in WH simply to send the message that there are no &#8220;Foregone Conclusions&#8221; in tWOT.  I also believe he will hold to his original plan of actually revealing Taim as Demandred in book 10 or 11.  My two cents.  <br />


created: 2001-07-02 23:20:19
subject: <b>Can you get me a signed book?</b>
body:
Damn dude I didn't know you were friends with RJ, think you could get him to sign a book of mine? Okay sorry if that came off as overly sarcastic or caustic. You just came off sounding like you know the man intimately though. You're presuming a lot of things here.<br /><br />   By the way what 'orignal plan' are you refferring to? If RJ has announced some kind of plan to 'reveal Taim as Demandred' then I'd like to get some confirmation on that. If he has then it seems to put the entire issue to rest doesn't it. Otherwise you're REALLY presuming a lot on his part. I will end this with a statement I made on another thread...<br /><br />...Well I guess until we either A)See the two in the same room, B) One dies (right in front of every body, and most likely with balefire so that you can't argue that they are brought back to life in 3 seconds) and the other is still around or C) RJ includes in book 10 a chapter titled 'TAIM VS. DEMANDRED THEY AINT THE SAME GUY FOR LIGHTS SAKE' There will always be someone clinging to this debunked line of thought.<br /><br />Leave the horses corpse alone. It's been flogged into hamburger folks, let it rest now. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 03:34:17
subject: <b>refuting some above points.</b>
body:
Your.master 95% is correct to 2 significant figures, i'm not going to write out a decimal with a six digit repeating block, don't imply you know more maths than me.<br /><br />gban007 you are wrong in stating that Demandred should have deduced that there were only three ashaman with Rand, and used this to figure out who Flinn was. Demandred didn't even know whether they were with Rand or not. He says &quot;Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time?&quot;<br /><br />gban007 you also didn't read my above comment. Taim didn't recognise Fewdin Morr in book 8, who he had known as long as Flinn, calling him &quot;this one.&quot;<br /><br />And on the &quot;flip side&quot; of the coin, maybe Flinn did see he was Taim but never got a chance to say in the rest of the book. More likely Demandred would not walk in the woods in his Taim disguise <br /><br />fourthletter Telamon, your justification of the so-called Aiel is faulty. Firstly you say that he came up with &quot;M'Hael&quot; so therefore he could know what &quot;Aiel&quot; means. But it is just as mysterious that he knew M'Hael as that he knew Aiel. And say he knew that Aiel meant Dedicated. How is he supposed to draw the conclusion that Rand's Aiel are &quot;so-called aiel.&quot; Does he think they are not dedicated? How could he? Only a knowledge of the Da'shain Aiel would make this comment understandable.


created: 2001-07-03 04:32:19
subject: <b>reply</b>
body:
but that is my point, demandred wouldn't have deduced it, but Taim would have.  And a man and 2 women are channeling at me, just below where Rand is quite obviously using the sa'angreal, gee, i wonder if they just happened along this path?  Just nicely on a jaunt near shadar logoth, with two aes sedai happy to be next to a male channeler, coincidence?  I think not, from the moment flinn channeled it was clear that they were with Rand, and if Demandred was Taim he would have figured out who flinn was, as Taim only put his henchmen and those three on the list of 'deserters', he knew where the others were.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 05:55:28
subject: <b>further</b>
body:
it does not say that Taim does not recognise Morr, he refers to him as 'this one', but when he is talking about a guy who is for all intents and purposes a walking corpse, you aren't going to personalise him too much, specially when Rand is on knife-edge.  i often refer to my friends as 'him' or 'her' doesn't mean i don't recognise them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 09:04:25
subject: <b>I just don't know</b>
body:
I had always been a supporter of the Taimendred theory, up until I read WH.  Everything seemed to point to their being the same person.  Even the double set of orders in WH could be argued to be extra insurance for the Taim disguise.  But not recognizing Flinn, that just seems to be too much.  It could be argued that Flinn is an underling and not really worthy of Demandred's notice especially after not seeing him for quite some time.  Yet, Flinn was not only among the first Asha'mon, he was THE first one to be tested.  To have him pass when Taim was not expecting it should have made Flinn stick out in his memory.  As I said, I was a suppoter of the Taimandred theory.  Now,...I just don't know.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-03 11:28:56
subject: <b>Witless prattle</b>
body:
Everybody is going on too much about what RJ is thinking (which I know is half the fun) but we can't possibly know and both cases have a stack of evidence for and against. WH seems to have killed off the idea that Taim is Demandred but...It didn't actually say Taim is Demandred, just muddied the water further. And I think this is telling. One thing is clear, Taim is shrouded in mystery and for a very good reason - there is a BIIIIG revelation in the offing about our favourite M'Hael. The proxy idea seems a little reaching. I think he is Demandred in a power-wrought disguise.<br />


created: 2001-07-03 18:25:23
subject: <b>Do the math dude,</b>
body:
Not trying to rag on anyones math skills just wanna set the record straight. 95 divided by 5 equals 19. 5 divided by 5 equals one. 95% to 5% would then be 19 to one against.<br /><br />   By the way I find amusing the idea that Damer Flinn might have recognized Taim, and just didn't get around to mentioning it. 'Well let's see should I tell someone like Cadsuane or one of the other former ashamon that the guy that Al'Thor was attacking with the other forsaken, or root around the forest for some food? Hmmmm.....'<br /><br />   By the way I think the think about Fedwin was to demonstrate the difference between Rand and Mazrim. Taim sees the ashamon as tools to be used and discarded when they are past being useful. Al'Thor views each one of them as real people that he doesn't like having to use for his own ends. It's not like Taim came into the room and said &quot;who in the light is that?!&quot; and had to have Rand remind him that he was an Ashamon. He just didn't bother to use the guys first name.<br /><br />   Rand often gives orders to maidens of the spear with out addressing them by name, would you say that he's forgotten who they are?<br /><br />   Still waiting for a logicial explanation about Taimedred not recognizing his own lackeys and underlings. If he (Demandred) doesn't even recall the first Ashamon tested who happened to pass with flying colors then I think this guy is someone else. Besides can you give me a good reason why the Dark One would have 2 Forsaken at the Black Tower? One should be enough to get some dread lords, and the other could be used elsewhere to spread chaos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:35:02
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Why whenever somebody doesn't agree with something I put on the black board, (either in support or not), do some people constatly take it out on my theories, <br /><br />Do you want me to put a friggin disclaimer on them saying that you must be willing to tolerate the absurd to read this.<br /><br />I never said they were right, I frequently add in things proving it wrong.<br /><br />Do I go on to you theories and tell you that they suck and that you don't even read the books, <br /><br />I can't wait till Mr. Jordan finishes this series, just so I can see how many of these are actually right.<br /><br />But I will say one thing, Taim is Demandred, Robert Jordan said we had evidence to ascertain the identities of every forsaken, so if Taim isn't demandred, why don't you tell me who is.<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-04 00:24:43
subject: <b>Savaunt you are an idiot</b>
body:
Let me tell you why.<br />I stated above that i had 20 points for Taimandred, and there was 1 point against, which made the odds, and i quote, &quot;about 95%&quot;.<br />This is quite true, as the exact % is 95.*238095* % where *abc* represents a repeating block. Therefore, 95% is correct to the number of significant figures used. <br /><br />Then, Your_master mistakenly pointed out that the odds were 19.1, cinfusing my argument. I then set him right (above). Then you have the nerve to say the same thing. Well i hope you can see now you are wrong wrong wrong.<br /><br />Also, on the issue of calling Fedwin &quot;this one&quot;, you can't possibly hope to justify Taim knowing his name and still calling him that. Could you come up with a real life circumstance where someone knew someone's name but called them &quot;this one&quot; ?


created: 2001-07-04 01:27:12
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
and to all the dissenters out there...I want to see an in depth theory as to whom Demandred is (not a theory simply refuting this one).  Convince me.  I dare you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 05:11:40
subject: <b>A little more evidence AGAINST.</b>
body:
I think one little bit of evidence will give very convincing proof that Taim knows who Flinn is.  In Snow, one of the asha'man brings a report about recent runaways.  On that list is Flinn.  Now if Taim did not know who Damer Flinn was, how in the hell did he get on the list?  Besides, Flinn is always with Rand.  I think Taim would know very well which asha'man stayed close to Rand.  Alright, sounds good, go me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 12:42:43
subject: <b>that's an easy Q to answer</b>
body:
He could easily of just been reading a report of runaways to Rand.<br /><br />The asha'man are run similar to a military unit, Taim probably gets reports from is subordinates.  Not knowing who Damer Flinn is, isn't a very big piece of evidence.<br /><br />Kidblondeel


created: 2001-07-04 15:06:17
subject: <b>Dude.</b>
body:
Kidblondeel, you are a very ignorant person.  Taim relayed this message personally after having returned from Cairhien, where Rand AND Flinn were.  And besides, Flinn, Hopwil, and Narishma aren't really runaways.  Taim only posted their names because they are so close to Rand.  He just wants to get rid of those Rand trusts so they can, in my opinion, be replaced by a couple of Taims boys.  Anyways, as I said before, Taim probably knows which asha'man are with the Dragon Reborn.  You're answer to my question only showed us all how much you DON'T know whats going on in TWoT.  Keep trying there buddy.  Go me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 16:45:26
subject: <b>Hey Kenco at least I'm polite</b>
body:
&quot;the odds of Taimandred are about 95%. Thats 20 to 1.&quot;<br /><br />   Those were your won words Kenco. So how am I an idiot for pointing out that 95% odds is 19 to 1 and 20 to 1? Here was what I said originally.<br /><br />&quot;Not trying to rag on anyones math skills just wanna set the record straight.&quot;<br /><br />   I was just trying to keep things clear dude. There was no reason to get defensive and insulting. This is just a theory board for gods sake. No one is trying to deny you a pulitzer or ruin your chances for a nobel prize.<br /><br />'Could you come up with a real life circumstance where someone knew someone's name but called them &quot;this one&quot; ?'<br /><br />   Does prison count? In prison people are assigned numbers and identified by such. Again I point out that Mazrim Taim didn't seem shocked at the presence of Fedwin. It isn't like he came in and said &quot;who in the light is this guy here?&quot; He just doesn't see a reason to refer to him by name.<br /><br />   Does Rand Al'Thor refer to every single maiden by name? Does Davram Bashere refer to each of his soldiers by their names? When was the last time that Mat knew the name of every single memeber of the Band of the Red Hand. I guess we can conclude that these people don't even recognize their own soldiers and are unaware of their existence then can't we?<br /><br />   So Kenco, can you give me a reason why the Dark One needed not one but two of his chosen to infiltrate the Black Tower. Aside from the fact that the Forsaken aren't to social with each other, it seems to be a wasted effort.<br /><br />   How bout the fact that some of the Forsaken have commented about events to the south having Demandreds touch to them? What can a man who's been working inside a compound in Andor be said to have to do with events to the south?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 18:51:10
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
Having never heard the Taimandred theory when I read book 6, I still thought &quot;goodness, this is weird, Taim doesn't seem to REALLY  be Taim...&quot;  I wondered who it could possibly be.  Perhaps a Forsaken or just a proxy for a Forsaken.  The hints were SO STRONG that something fishy was up!!  Bashere not recognizing him, LTT in a rage upon hearing his voice, etc, etc!  I'm not saying Taim=Demandred, but I am saying that maybe RJ is trying to lead us in a direction that no one has caught onto yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 09:48:38
subject: <b>Chill out guys</b>
body:
You all are getting too pissed about this.  Relax.  Also, another point against Taimandred:  Perrin smelled Taim and NEVER came up with a hatred or angry smell, just a crazy smell.  Surely if Taimandred were with Rand he would smell of hatred.  The nose knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 03:50:46
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Well..., demandred went to the dark because of envy of Lews Therin right?<br /><br />You gotta be kinda crazy in the first place to turn to the dark side, plus living your intire life in someone else's shadow can make a guy a little crazy.<br /><br />Being locked away with the dark one in the bore, for 3000 years was it, can make you a little crazy.<br /><br />I'm not sure, but I think there is a lot of mad men in Wot who are enemies of Rand.<br /><br />Mordeth/Fain<br />Gawyn- (He seems crazier and crazier every book)<br />Ishy- Moridin isn't, but Ishy was one flew over the cuckoo's nest.<br />Galad- (That kid is just messed up, forget him being crazy)<br />ect<br /><br />I think everyone in Wot is a little crazy, heck the main character/hero is even.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-07 11:45:19
subject: <b>HAHAHA!</b>
body:
Look, you are all getting really mad (as vercing said above).  I admit I was wrong is saying we saw Taim's POV, that was cleared up above.  The percent thing is making me laugh to death!  I wasn't implying anything about Kenco's math skills, people sometimes just make weird mistakes when they aren't really thinking about what they're doing.  I didn't realize she was actually counting the number of points of evidence and calculating percentages based on that, but really, using that system I could say that there is a 33.3% chance that RJ is an alien from another planet (We have a picture of him and he's writing on Earth vs. his books are unearthly good or something).  95% is 19:1, 20:1 is -about- 95% as Kenco said.  Although I see more than 1 point of evidence against Taimandred above that post.  Oh well.  Savaunt has defended me, and for that I'm thankful, but Savaunt and Kenco degenerated into a &quot;You are an idiot&quot; &quot;No you are&quot; argument.<br /><br />ANYWAY...back on topic.<br /><br />The Asha'man Demandred didn't recognize isn't just another rank-and-file soldier, he's very important, very close to Rand, and therefore very memorable.  I should think Demandred would recognize that one if he were Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 15:11:37
subject: <b>Never called him names...</b>
body:
...Just for the record I never called Kenco an Idiot. I don't hink he is one either. I just happen to think that he's wrong big difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 20:14:37
subject: <b>Why can't we be friends</b>
body:
Can't we all just get along?<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-10 17:51:05
subject: <b>Chill, guys, chill!</b>
body:
Okay, first of all I'd like to say we've all got to chill out.  Lord Savaunt, I'm surprised at you -- you always seemed like you had things well thought out and logical.  Then you start dissing people left and right . . . take it EASY, people.  <br />This is obviously a RAFO point.  Arguing over this point for six months is not going to make it any clearer.  Jordan's probably looking at all these theories flying around and laughing so hard he's having a hard time typing book 10.  I know I would be, if I were him.  This is all pure speculation and it's not getting anywhere; all it's doing is getting us pissed off at one another. <br />Having said that, I'd like to point out a few things myself (hypocrisy alert):<br />People are saying &quot;so where's Demandred if he's not Taim?&quot;  Doesn't it say somewhere that he's sticking close to Shayol Ghul (sp?) because he wants to be Nae'Blis?  Does it say anywhere in more recent books that he's left for any length of time? <br />Point #2:  I can't recall precisely (I only read WH once, and it was months and months ago) but doesn't Osan'Gar/Dashiva say in his POV that he's not happy playing as Asha'Man?  This could mean that he's been pushed into this job by the other Forsaken.  <br />Point #3:  Demandred really, really, REALLY hates Lews Therin, and he's transfered that to Rand.  It's a very good point that Perrin smells no hatred.  The nose does know.  <br />Point #4:  Taim could be ticked at Rand for handing out the medals and badges because that makes the troops more loyal to Rand and not to him.  If he's really trying to take out Rand and use the Asha'Man for his own ends, then anything that makes the Black Tower more Rand's and less his would get to him.<br />Anyway, just a bunch of ideas (I could probably come up with more, but this is long enough as it is).  The whole debate does have a lot of evidence on all sides.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 14:20:41
subject: <b>I like the opinion that</b>
body:
the Asha'man and Aes Sedai will join together like in the AoL, and Logain and Egwene will be their leaders.  I don't remember who mentioned it, but it seems a logical way for all the channelers to go since the taint is gone.  Then again, when have the characters in the books used a whole lot of logic?


created: 2001-07-02 22:52:21
subject: <b>Just might...</b>
body:
Goood theory. With Ablar having two pet Aes Sedai he might even be able to have them kill any women so as to avoid it altogether. Good thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 01:41:10
subject: <b>They will join...</b>
body:
Just as bukama two steps up said, I think Egwene and Logain will bring together the Aes Sedai and the Ashaman. Don&#180;t forget the fight in the last chapter in WH. They worked together, and I think we will se much more of that sort in the next books...<br /><br />Viking<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-03 02:45:13
subject: <b>I agree with Ash</b>
body:
I agree with bad ash, I always got the impression of a civil war between asha'man, <br /><br />But then again, I also got the impression that the Red ajah would become warders to the asha'man, <br /><br />but either way I agree with bad ash.<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-03 09:00:01
subject: <b>Thom once said...</b>
body:
that the heroes of Tarmon Gaidon would &quot;be lucky if the story's got the name's right&quot;.  I have the feeling that this means the world will forget Rand al'Thor and the name of Logain as the leader of the Black Tower is the one that will be remembered after the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taverenchris <br />Not-So Newly Bionic Resident of the Westlands <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Kind-Of Old Man River <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Random Wanderer Through the Message Board <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 10:45:52
subject: <b>No way Rand will be forgotten</b>
body:
&quot;And the glory of the Light did shine upon him&quot;<br />by someone from somewhere, the FOURTH age<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 17:33:54
subject: <b>Notha name forgotten</b>
body:
Maybe it will be Taim that is forgotten. Poeple will remember that the first leader of the Black Tower was a dark friend that tried to destroy things, but they won't recall the name of this man that the legendary Logain Ablar (the first true Tamyrlyn) deposed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 19:45:32
subject: <b>Logain's Deed</b>
body:
I think that Logain will indeed bring down Taim but I also think he will do something like Little G said he would, which is, help Rand out in a big way during the Last Battle. Perhaps not too far off on how Sam is to Frodo in The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. We shall see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Software Analyst <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's clean...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;You are taking your first step into a larger world.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-11 19:21:49
subject: <b>It doesn't have to be that complicated.</b>
body:
The halo Min saw could be as simple as him being able to touch the source again.  Not saying that the other theorys are bad, but what if her viewing wasn't that far ahead?!


created: 2002-08-26 10:19:18
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that the aura has something to do with when the white tower and the black tower join Logain will probably be given a very high position<br />probably higher than Rand considering rand hasn't had anything to do with the ashaman in a dogs age<br />plus rand just has way to much on the go to help rule the tower<br />anyway thats my 2 cents hope it makes sense


created: 2002-08-29 18:41:49
subject: <b>I'm with Bad Ash on this one.</b>
body:
Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 19:04:18
subject: <b>what can i say</b>
body:
ash does have a good point.  i agree with him. but what is making me think, since i haven't read any posts or theories about taim on this, is that couldn't he be one of the next forsaken? i'm not sure that there will be another set, but the wheel weaves as the wheel wills, and &quot;there are no beginnings, nor endings to the wheel of time&quot; or whatever.  I can't remember which forsaken it was, but he was a general for LTT, and he hated him and yeah.  this looks familiar (taim and rand) if you ask me.  <br /><br />-The Chump<br /><br />&quot;I got your chump change....&quot;


created: 2003-01-23 15:48:46
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I think that he will help Rand with dealings of the Black Tower. i think taim will personally attempt to kill rand and will be foiled by Logain, or Logain will expose the true Taim to Rand.


created: 2003-02-22 02:32:03
subject: <b>Its possible</b>
body:
I have to go with the fact that logain is suspicous of Taim and Taim is a darkfriend before that though.  logain has now sworn to Rand and has the intelligence to suspect Taim. The last battle seems a long way off to me but you may have your own view. I think that whatever Logain does though he will be remembered for ages to come and that what he does will come before the last battle. I will side with the view of Logain wresting the Ashaman from Taim, and becoming the leader of them.(cant remember the term right now.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 12:30:14
subject: <b>One more evidence</b>
body:
What about all the old knowledge that he has.  I guess you could say that he's a scholar of some sort of another but if I recall (sorry that I don't have any quotes to back this up) he sounds as if he actually lived the AoL, and doesn't just happen to know about it.  I'm pretty sure that's Taim.  Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.


created: 2001-07-02 12:45:36
subject: <b>Look alike</b>
body:
Where do you get that the two look alike. I dont remember any reference to that. The thing is that they act just alike and that IS evidence. LTT rants about him because he knows it is Demandred in disguse and can pick him out no matter how he looked. I am sorry but I stick to the point that Taim is Demandred.<br /><br /><br />Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 16:49:12
subject: <b>He is not Demandred</b>
body:
Why are people trying to make something bigger than it has to be? The Forsaken turned against LTT because of jealousy, greed, etc. Taim is strong in the power and has been around a lot longer than Rand but Rand has done more. The Asha'man are going to be important for the Final Battle but Taim won't get the credit because he is not the Dragon. He is becoming like the Forsaken in the Age of Legends. Now, this argument can go either way. Another theory on this site mentions that in Winter's Heart Demandred was attacked by an Asha'man but he didn't recognize him. If he was Taim, he would he would recognized an Asha'man.


created: 2001-07-02 17:21:34
subject: <b>Leave that horses corpse alone...</b>
body:
...Well I guess until we either A)See the two in the same room, B) One dies (right in front of every body, and most likely with balefire so that you can't argue that they are brought back to life in 3 seconds) and the other is still around or C) RJ includes in book 10 a chapter titled 'TAIM VS. DEMANDRED THEY AINT THE SAME GUY FOR LIGHTS SAKE' There will always be someone clinging to this debunked line of thought.<br /><br />   The horse has been flogged into hamburger folks, let it rest now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 21:42:50
subject: <b>Enough! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
The Forsaken don't only compete against Rand, they compete against each other. For the most part, there's one Forsaken per nation/organization/etc. Let's do a list, shall we? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />For some of these, we assume. For others, the deed is done. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />4 have or had ruled nations:<br /><br />Rahvin - Andor<br />Sammael - Illian<br />Be'lal - Tear<br />Graendal - Arad Doman<br /><br />4 were &quot;independents:&quot;<br /><br />Lanfear (Cyndane)<br />Moridin (Ishy)<br />Asmodean<br />Moghdinean<br /><br />That leaves 5 super-national organizations to infiltrate:<br /><br />Children of the Light<br />Seanchan (Semighrage)<br />White Tower (Mesaana)<br />Salidar Tower (Aran'gar)<br />Black Tower (Osan'gar)<br /><br />We know Moghdinean and Cyndane are under Moridin's direct command, thanks to the cour'souvua. Only one Forsaken is left for the CotL: Demadread. We learn that Valda and other Whitecloaks were hunting the Masema when Amador fell to the Seanchan. Demadread has to be in the CotL, probably as Asunwa, that wacky High Inquisitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Note: this list, save a few Forsaken, is conjecture, and should be treated with a pinch of salt and a slap in the face. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 22:47:49
subject: <b>Also the Dragon Sworn</b>
body:
Demandred might also be among the dragon sworn helping to sully Rands good name. Of course the only one with any prominence is Masema and I think we can safely say that he hasn't been shang haied and replaced with someone. He was getting a little bats assed crazy when he was last with Rand in the begginning of TDR. If that had been D-Man then he'd have tried to whack Al'THor since it was obvious by then (to those with enough foresight) that he was LTT reborn. The DO hadn't yet issued the 'no kill Rand' edict so Demandred would have tried.<br /><br />   That leave the CotL as the best target. If you factor in one of the Chosen commenting about events in the south having Demandreds touch then we have our confirmation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 23:15:07
subject: <b>He is too</b>
body:
Because well, it's just that I've been believing it for so long..... (sniffle) <br /><br />It's so hard to let go. I mean, that guy said Demandred told him one thing, and Taim another, but, well, maybe he disguised himself one time and changed his mind but didn't want anyone to know it and and and...and...<br /><br />Oh, I don't know. But I just can't let it go. What of all the great theories??? (sniffle) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 02:52:33
subject: <b>Facial features</b>
body:
You left out the facial features pointed out by KENCO<br /><br />(quote)<br />In almost every scene featuring Taim, we have exactly the same:<br /><br />&quot;The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile.&quot;<br />&quot;Taim's mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile; it never touched his eyes.&quot;<br />&quot;Taim's mouth quirked in that near smile.&quot;<br />&quot;Taim flashed that half-smile again.&quot;<br />&quot;Taim turned to Rand, that almost-smile on his lips&quot;<br /><br /><br />I believe Robert Jordan just wanted to throw us all off, because he felt he'd left too much proof.<br /><br />but Kenco's go it right<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-07-03 03:48:17
subject: <b>What?!</b>
body:
Kidblondeel, he's left out a lot more than that! Implying that there are only 3 Taimandred points! how does he dare? I imagine he just didn't want to read the Taimandred theories to see how many points there were.<br /><br />What about the beginning of book six, where Demandred has a plan &quot;that will require a gambler's luck&quot;, but could &quot;hand them everything&quot;? Disguising yourself as Taim and serving Rand without him catching on would require a hell of a lot of luck. But these other theories about joining the whitecloaks. Really. The whitecloaks are nothing. Or Disguising himself as master Norry (chief clerk of Caemlyn). Oh No, he could bring Caemlyn to ruin!! That could hand the Forsaken Everything!!!<br /><br />What about the absolute lack of fear that Taim demonstrates when he meets Rand for the first time, escorted by hostile Saldean soldiers? <br />   Rand thinks &quot;Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his&quot; and, at his lack of fear &quot;a kind of madness?&quot;<br />   Then consider that Demandred had said, in the prologue, that he had rooted out all fear from himself.<br /><br />I could go on, but as you can see, there are a lot more than 3 points at my disposal.


created: 2001-07-03 03:51:45
subject: <b>Taim is Taim but...</b>
body:
Of course so many people still think that Taim is Demandred (I myself thought so until I read Winter's Heart, and part of me still wants to think so...), because there has been so many evidence that he is, and so few that he isn't. Only WH suggests twicely that Taim isn't Demandred, all the other books suggest that he is. And there is no evidence what so ever that Demandred is someone else. I think, Jordan has changed his mind about Demandred and Taim. I'm quite surpriced actually that only two pieces of evidence got so many people to change their minds about Taim and Demandred (myself included) when there are so many other evidence to support the theory.<br /><br />Kata


created: 2001-07-03 09:37:29
subject: <b>so-called...</b>
body:
The phrase &quot;so-called&quot; has been used numerous times by the Forsaken when making reference to Aes Sedai and Aiel.  To me this seems like the AoLers pointing out the inferiority of the modern age.  Devil's Advocate:   If Taim is not Demandred, then why does he speak like someone from the AoL?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 17:19:02
subject: <b>Hey Jayhawk</b>
body:
I think that we can all agree that Taim (regardless of if he's a forsaken or not) is a servant of the dark. If he is a servant of the Dark born into this era then he's probably more than a DF. He may have been Osangars protege, afterall we know that Aginor/Osangar was diguised as Dashiva. If Osangar was giving tips to Taim then that'd explain why he might know AoL phrases.<br /><br />   By the way Osangar is another mark against the Taimedred theory. We know that none of the Forsaken get along with one another very well, so why would two of them work the Black Tower together. Besides even if Aggy and D-man-dread were tight homies, you'd think they'd brqanch out so as to cause more chaos wouldn't you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 18:58:50
subject: <b>Taim's turning</b>
body:
Well I am a big supporter of the idea that Taim is Demandred, and so far I believe the similarities out weigh the differences.<br /><br />the facial features speek alot to me, but it might not be that big a deal, Rand is already on the road to being the same way, (remmoved and hardened and real sepressed like)but then again, sorilea and cadsuane are suppose to take care of that.<br /><br />Robert Jordan seems to use that discription for alot of characters in Wot, like Lan for instance, in the intire series, I think he only laughs once. (TGH, in Fal Dara after the Amyrlyn shows up)<br /><br />but there is still that they are described similarily in power, in height if I remember correctly, in behavior, in allegiances, and others I've almost definitly forgotten.<br /><br />If I wrote a series and put in as much planning and foreshadowing as Mr. Jordan, I think I'd read what my fan's thought was going to happen.  And if I found out that they already new, then I almost definitly would have tweaked the story a bit to give them pause, and hope that it sustained the mystery a bit.<br /><br />but that's just me...<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-04 00:29:24
subject: <b>Taim being taught</b>
body:
Oh yeah, i can really see this happening. Demandred is chatting to his protege. Hey, Taimo, hows it going. Say, did i ever tell you that in the Age of Legends Aiel served the Aes Sedai and followed the Way of the Leaf, so it's ironic that now they are warriors, and so i just call them &quot;so-called Aiel&quot;, so why don't you too. I just think it's really important that you should know this, and also that you should use my mannerisms.<br /><br />Yeeeeeah.


created: 2001-07-04 02:02:17
subject: <b>He's got a definit point there</b>
body:
Kenco's right, unless of course taim is a forsaken resurrected, and I would be really pissed off if he was, he shouldn't know what he knows unless he's a vessel, there seems to be alot of body switchin goin around, and I don't like it.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-04 16:24:30
subject: <b>Another way to think things...</b>
body:
...Going under the idea that Demandred is using Mazrim as a proxy (we've already learned that he likes proxies) here's a thought. If they should be talking about Al'Thor and Demandred made a comment about those &quot;so-called Aiel' do you think that Mazrim might ask a follow up question on that?<br /><br />   By the way on either this thread or another someone pointed out how suspicious it is that Taim knows old tongue words like M'Hael. Why is that weird?  There are still people who learn how to speak a lot of the old words. Maybe Mazrim when he was in Dragon Reborn mode decided to learn as much as he could so that he could make himself seem more like a noble leader of men. If he did I imagine learning a word like 'leader' would be a good idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 00:37:39
subject: <b>Ouestion!</b>
body:
Has any one figured out how Taim has canaled so long without going mad? I believe that, because of that one question, Taim IS at the very least a high level dark friend, if not one of the forsaken.


created: 2001-07-07 03:36:06
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
That's a possibility, but look at Logain, he lived with it for six years I think it was and never got sick, in fact he didn't show any signs either.  But he's not a darkfriend, or a forsaken in disguise, at least I hope not...<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-19 10:06:54
subject: <b>re: &quot;So-called Aiel&quot;</b>
body:
I think one reason these two pieces of evidence against outweigh all the &quot;for&quot; evidence is because there can be hundreds of things that imply that one thing is true, but it only takes one thing to disprove that. Perhaps Demandred really is Taim, or perhaps everyone is looking at it all wrong. None of the evidence I have seen for it says that it is Demandred without a doubt; in fact, a lot of it could be any number of things. However the two pieces of evidence against Demandred being Taim are stronger. I'm not saying whether Demandred is Taim or not, just that the evidence for is mostly circumstantial while the evidence against isn't very easy to get around. I have yet to see a good explanation for why Demandred told someone (cant remember who) one thing and Taim told him another. Everytime someone brings up Winter's Heart I hear &quot;Well, there was a distance so he didn't recognize Flinn.&quot; Okay, fine, but everyone always ignores the other evidence, which was what made me start thinking that maybe Demandred is not Taim after all. I actually didn't notice the Flinn thing til it was pointed out later. So if someone can give me a satisfactory explanation of the above, then maybe I will start believing the Taimandred theory again. But I haven't heard it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-08 11:57:45
subject: <b>Why he hasn't gone mad. . .(maybe)</b>
body:
Maybe he has gone mad!<br />No, seriously.  There was a theory I read a while back that basically said the madness &quot;thins out the barrier between present and past&quot; or something(so when someone goes mad, they're just talking to a past life).  Maybe Taim got taken over by his past life, which would explain A. why he hasn't gone mad and B. why he talks like an AoL person.<br /><br />	That's all,<br />	Penguin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">( &#8226; &gt; Penguin ( &#8226; &gt;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> PC hater <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 19:33:54
subject: <b>ummm.....uhhhhhhh</b>
body:
I've been sitting here reading these posts for about 20 min now while i should be working and well................<br />i just want to know is anyone else's head spinning????<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />KAZANDAR<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Dancer of Death<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Kin of Dragons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />May you find peace before peace finds you!!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 17:17:54
subject: <b>Be VERY careful how you word that title!</b>
body:
I got COMPLETELY the wrong idea at first glance!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 17:41:51
subject: <b>Oh yes the delicious Irony...</b>
body:
...I had a theory with an innocent title (bearing in mind that I wasn't the one who put in the disclaimer) that was kinky and full of lust and sounded like the rantings of a guy that needs a cold shower desperately.<br /><br />   This guy has a title with the word sex in it, and gives a cold logical dissertation on the electrical analogies of the one power. Very good theory here, I think you said it all better than I could have.<br /><br />   I just love the irony though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 18:24:16
subject: <b>I really hate to break it to you but...</b>
body:
Static electricity doesn't flow.  Hence the word &quot;static,&quot; meaning unchanging or unmoving.  When it starts moving, then it becomes &quot;current.&quot;  However, since there is such a thing as high resistance, high voltage, low flow current, your analogy still stands <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 00:12:54
subject: <b>Another spin on it...</b>
body:
What if it has to do with the flows used during healing?  To heal Logain, Nynaeve used fire and earth.  She used the same with Siuan and Leane.  Doesn't it stand to reason that water and air might have worked better?  Though the theory about opposite sexes healing each other works too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sentrosi <br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 09:03:58
subject: <b>Disagree with the book?</b>
body:
I like your theory, I just disagree with anyone who uses a sentence like, &quot;In the book he said... However...&quot;  With a very few exceptions, when RJ explains something theory wise in the books, he is doin it for our benefit.  Then we get to feel all warm and fuzzy that we know what he is thinking.  Granted, there are red herrings to throw us off plots and such.  But when he is talkin about somethin as vast and unstressed a point as this, I trust him not to say one thing without hinting that it could be different.  If he was leading us astray, then there would be more suggestions given as to the true nature of the taint/saidar to saidin than what he gives us currently.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gynsala<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Help Seeker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />Needer of Explanations<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Poster of Non-Important Stuff<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Please, do NOT assault the vegetation</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 17:23:45
subject: <b>A sidenote</b>
body:
You mention the fact that having stilling healed by a channeler of the same sex might lead to a certain &quot;leakage&quot; of the OP thus, rather neatly, explaining why Siuan and Leane aren't as strong as they used to be. My thought of the day is:<br />Wouldn't it be interesting if the link created also faded with time, leaving the one healed effectively stilled once again (after several years perhaps). That would be a truly interesting plottwist as it would lead to men and women working the OP together out of their own free will. Each would view the other as a sort of insurance against ever being without the OP. I have no proof whatsoever supporting this theory but, as I said, it would be a cool development and, besides, isn't it about time male and female channelers started working side by side without Compulsion of any degree being used?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:14:39
subject: <b>sorry about the static</b>
body:
I know that &quot;static&quot; electricity was no the best possible explaination but I haven't been to physics in a while. It was just most important to me to relate how less resistance equals less power.  And to Simply Ash I think that there is a possibility that Suian and Leanes power will diminish, though i think they may actually risk being severed again so that a man can heal them.  I think there capacity is the same and if they get healed with saidin they will return to their full power.  And to Sentrosi since RJ didn't elaborate on what ?Damar? used to heal the Aes Sedai I can't completely disagree.  But I do.  And to Gynsala, your right in a way but I would like ot point out that Rand said that.  And that Rand talented and insightful as he is has only had a little over two years working with the Power.  I never said that he was wrong that the conduit would have broken apart I just said that even if the taint were not present the transfer would be less successful like Nynaeve healing Suian was less successful.  If Rand had not needed to use Nynaeve Im sure he would have attempted to do it by himself but I don't think it would have worked as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 22:50:46
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Good theory.  I believe you may be onto something here with the analogy.  A few comments though...  Perhaps you should change the word &quot;resistance&quot; to &quot;potential&quot;.  The electro-magnetic field is a &quot;potential&quot; field (i.e. only a difference or potential is what matters) and you can not have the &quot;electro&quot; without the &quot;magnetic&quot;.  Just something to think about.<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />Part-time physisist, part-time engineer, part-time musician, etc...<br />


created: 2001-07-06 01:23:14
subject: <b>Sentrosi</b>
body:
Logain, Siuan, and Leane were healed with Fire and SPIRIT, not Fire and Earth.<br /><br />Sorry!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 09:43:02
subject: <b>Hey Rathan</b>
body:
Didn't Nynaeve use ALL of the five powers to heal Logain and the others?  Maybe I just can't remember anything corectly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 02:42:34
subject: <b>Severed by sex</b>
body:
While I applaud the thoury I am &quot;responding&quot; to, I am going to speak about the smutty thoughts people had first off. <br /><br />I think that by doing the bad-thing-in-the-right-way, a channeler could be severed. I put this down to the reason there were so few male channelers around.<br /><br />Basically, young guys have sex! This is probably occuring around the time that the power is manefesting itself, so, they have to fight pain, while they are having a bloody good time. This results in the power either gentling him or burning him &amp; her to a crisp. Gives a new meaning to having the &quot;barn on fire&quot;. So, less male channelers. <br /><br />Due to girls attaining the power earlier, they create blocks earlier to the power or learn to control it before they go-the-whole-hog.<br /><br />That is just a very bored guy's perspective<br /><br /><br />Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of Amphibious Mammals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> enjoyer of Eddings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-03 15:12:17
subject: <b>One Thing I Noticed</b>
body:
When Nynaeve was &quot;examining&quot; Logain just before she healed him it said she felt a sort of residue of fire and spirit. for her to feel it it would have had to have been made of saidar BEFORE it was severed, therefore her link of saidar returned him to his original strength. But, if I recall correctly, it didn't say that she felt the same thing in Leane and Suain, she just made the link in the same spot from memory. If I am wrong please tell me at stregom@wotmania.com . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-07 18:24:10
subject: <b>Hmmmm,</b>
body:
She thought that she should bridge the gap with fire and spirit, if i remember correctly.  It would definitly be good for my theory if she sensed saidar flows of Fire and Spirit but I'm pretty sure she didn't<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 17:06:08
subject: <b>About the resistance thing...</b>
body:
You've got it all backwards.  Air has a massive amount of resistance, not very little.  Thats why an ohmmeter always reads near infinity until the probes make contact with somthing that conducts electricity.  Also, &quot;static&quot; electricity can have the same amount of &quot;power&quot; as electrical current.  Here's the physics of it:<br /><br />The formula for power is P=I*E With current being &quot;I&quot; and voltage being &quot;E&quot;.  &quot;Power is current times voltage&quot;.  Also ohms law states that E=I*R, or &quot;voltage equals current times resistance&quot;.<br /><br />Now you said that static electricity was less powerful than &quot;normal&quot; electricity.  Not true.  Lightning is considered &quot;static&quot; electricity.  Lightning is extremely high voltage, applied across an extremely high resistance (air), this means it has little current, but still has a high power value.  The word &quot;static&quot; only means high voltage + low current.<br /><br />I think what you are trying to say is that Static electricity is akin to Saidin, and that &quot;normal&quot; electricity is akin to Saidar.  Well, I can see where you were trying to go with this, but it doesn't make sense, from an electrical viewpoint.<br /><br />It does make more sense from a magnetic viewpoint:<br />The north pole of a magnet = Saidar<br />The south pole of a magnet = Saidin<br />(Hypothetically speaking, of course)<br /><br />If there is a break in Saidar, the two ends would repel each other, but, if you use Saidin to fill the &quot;gap&quot; then the two ends would attract each other, and become whole again (kind of).  Of course, this breaks some of the rules of physics also (Thats why we call it fantasy).<br /><br />All in all, I'd have to say I agree with Bad Ash when he says that we can't really explain this fantasy world with  our scientific explanations.  But its always fun to speculate. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I like cookies.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-20 18:52:10
subject: <b>Nynaeve's healings</b>
body:
The healing that Nynaeve did did not have to be done from memory. My theory is that given that Nynaeve knows where the saidar is (metaphorically speaking) knows where the woman she's healing is, and creates a conduit of some sorts between the two, or following the remains of the conduit (although she can't see/sense the saidar conduit, she can sorta feel it through, just as when Rand encountered the shield around the Callandor, or in the way women can unravel male weaves - knowing what is there and unraveling it from memory; in this case, she doesn't actually need to know how the saidin conduit is made, she's not doing anything with it per se) from each side is until reaching the gap, which she then seals with the powers she can use - fire and spirit (see the first Healing Gentling and Stilling theory blackboard on my explanation why she can't remake it with Water/Air.


created: 2002-05-09 07:59:24
subject: <b>blood and ashes</b>
body:
Blood and bloody ashes man,we dont need any flamin goatkissing sheephearders posting theories.Saidin and Saidar are opposite when you work with them.Heres a flamin example.When Elayne and Egwene were working with Rand everything was the bloody opposite in the skills they were doing.exp.Elayne is not soppose to suck all the heat in to her when unlighting a candle when Rand sucks the heat up.Rand grabs Saidin female wielders embrace.etc.etc.etc.The Powers are not exactly opposite in themselves or Moridin would not be able to use the True Source.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 07:50:51
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
No Saidin and saidar are not just affected by the user or in your words UNO when you are working with them.  When Rand was linked with Nynaeve he saw for the first time and without a fact that there was a fundemental difference between the two. And Rand Cleansing of Saidin was a clear and total proof that neither Saidin nor saidar can be forced to flow without a path being provided.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 00:21:20
subject: <b>healing.</b>
body:
Metals have a lower resistance then air.<br />I dont get anything your trying to say, but i have always believed that for a male to be fully healed, a female had to do the healing and vice versa.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 00:17:52
subject: <b>HAAHAH</b>
body:
k that tittle is Fu&#199;ked !! haha - all those ppl tryna find out how neaneave healed Logaine and them why don't you jsut check the God Damn book! lol jesus lol! it reminds me of dictionary's - everyone wants to know how to spell words but no one wants to look it up!


created: 2004-09-25 13:24:37
subject: <b>Bingo!</b>
body:
Our thinking matches almost exactly! (I have a theory pending entitled &quot;The nature of Cuendillar&quot; that covers a lot of the same stuff)<br /><br />Oh yes, and whoever posted above me... The White Stripes are pathetic. Hitting one drum throughout an entire song does not qualify as talent. If  that's all you needed, I'd be multiplatinum by know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 01:48:58
subject: <b>Interesting, but does it matter?</b>
body:
Not to be mean, I like the thought processes involved here, but does it really matter how it worked in the first place?  We were only given descriptions of what the taint felt like, the oil slick etc.  We were never given a good description of what caused it other than the DO.  We were only given a vague statement about how it was the DO's counter-stroke.  Even in the end, we were NOT told what Rand did to get rid of the taint.  More importantly, I have seen various people quoting RJ as having said the taint is now gone.  If we were given such vague beginings and endings, can we ever be sure weather or not that taint was finite or infinite?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 03:23:15
subject: <b>Possible explanation?</b>
body:
Well, I think of this in a mathematic geometrical way... It is fully possible to mathematically create a body with infinite area but finite volume...<br /><br />So I figure that it is likewise fully possible to taint an infinite amount of the one power with an finite amount of something else... If only the &quot;right&quot; geometrical conditions exists...


created: 2001-07-03 06:30:00
subject: <b>finite power finite taint</b>
body:
there is a finite amount of power. each time it is used it returns to the true source. the taint however isn't channeled with the weaves. rand says that sidin flows but the taint stays in the channeler ( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> can't find quote <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 09:24:45
subject: <b>finite taint regardless of power's finity</b>
body:
Think, the taint is described like an oil slick.  So the taint covers a &quot;lake&quot; of the power which is infinitely deep.  Therefore, a finite amount can cover an infinite amount.<br /><br />We also don't -know- that the power is infinite, that's actually a strange assumption because the power is just an energy made by the creator to turn the wheel, and everything ELSE the creator made is finite, even the DO's prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 12:18:55
subject: <b>Oh Boy</b>
body:
I can see that this will be a never dieing belief. I think the taint is completly gone. Think about this. We have had those Choedan Kal since the end of TLoC and they haven't been touched. Then Rand keeps them hidden and protects them all the way to the end of Winter's Heart. What else did RJ intend them for. Plus about all the Forsaken show up when they feel the weaves Rand and Nynaeve are putting out and seem to know what they are up too. Rand also says briefly that it is clean but I guess that truely isnt enough proof that the taint wont seem back through. I still say that Rand and Nynaeve went to REMOVE the taint and succeeded and that the next book is going to kick ass. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 12:26:18
subject: <b>The bucket analogy</b>
body:
&quot;It would be like if you had a bucket of water with a slick of oil on it. You could pour it through one of those kids bath tub toys with the gears that turn when water flows over it into another bucket. The gears have been turned and the water is now back to its original, untapped form, and the oil is still there.&quot;<br /><br />But if you put a filtration system in the toy, (Shadar Logoth in this case) the water goes back into the bucket clean; no oil.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 13:57:45
subject: <b>To Be More Precise</b>
body:
I am liking all of the feed back here on my theory...I guess I wasn't specific enough, though, when I made some of my points.<br /><br />1-When I am talking about the Taint, I am referring as to when it was still there (I believe that it is gone)<br /><br />2-When I say that the Taint is not finite, perhaps I am not using the correct term.  What I mean is that its not like there was &quot;X&quot; amount of Taint released in the counter stroke, and that as the Power is used, the Taint is used up.  There very well could be a finite amount...it just comes up every time the Power is channeled and it leaves a residue on the user, and returns with the Power to its primal form.<br /><br />Really like the Geometrical response, and yes, I agree with the &quot;filtration system&quot; repsonse of Shadar Logoth.  Guess I forgot to put that it...thought it but forgot to write it, you know?<br /><br />Kinslayer2K


created: 2001-07-03 17:14:52
subject: <b>great stuff</b>
body:
sweet little theory i like it alot ,fine work kinslayer lets here some more soon !!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:05:03
subject: <b>He's right</b>
body:
I also agree, I remeber Moiraine describing Saidar to egwene and her saying something like, to try and use up saidar would be like a water wheel using up a river.  I believe the Taint is the same.<br /><br />I would really like to know what those damn snake people told rand though<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-03 19:30:31
subject: <b>Only so much</b>
body:
I would agree but.  RJ and his cast of character constantly refer to the fact that part of the taint seeps into their bones.  It is the taint that cause the madness and the rottign sickness.  If it were not separate their would only be madness when they were channelling. And along with that If the taint and the Power were inseparable than the feeling of euphoria would remain as well after they let go of saidin.  Which we know is nothe case.  There is another theory on the post that says that the Power is finite and is recycled and that hte taint is also finite but not recycled because it is deposited in the channeler and in the  things produced with saidin (the ways).  that theory implied that their was much more of a taint on saidin inthe beginning than their is now which is what allowed Rand the ability to cleanse it at all.  I think I agree with that theory the most, probably because it is most related to our on theories of energy-&gt; energy can neither be created nor destroyed(it can only be converted)  Also it stand to reason that if the sa'angreal was powerful enought to challenge the creator it must be powerful enough to use the entirety of the one power that the Creator provided leading us to believe that the One Power has an entirety.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:34:18
subject: <b>and repeating other people usually means i shoudl have read first</b>
body:
the title is all i had to say <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 23:04:55
subject: <b>Thermodynamics in Randland</b>
body:
If the power is not &quot;used up&quot; but converted, what does that say about channeling?  Is channeling a &quot;reversable process&quot; with no &quot;losses&quot;?  The laws of thermodynamics state :<br />1)  you don't get something for nothing<br />2)  you can't even break even<br /><br />If channeling did not &quot;use up&quot; the one power (i.e. the entropy effect), there would come a time when channelers could effectively &quot;channel&quot; more of the power.  Let's think about this for a bit...<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-07-03 23:17:03
subject: <b>Tim, it's the wot books are fiction</b>
body:
uhhhh Tim, why would the laws of thermodynamics be included in a fantasy book?<br /><br />like the title says, there is a reason they call it fiction<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-03 23:46:56
subject: <b>the ways...</b>
body:
This has probably been brought up about a hundred times, but...<br /><br />If the taint is now gone (and I believe it is), do you think that the Ways will return to their former &quot;shining&quot; form?<br /><br />And will this regeneration be immediate, or gradual (as the Ways are living things - they had to be grown, sort of like trees, by the Ogier)?<br /><br />What does everyone think?


created: 2001-07-04 09:55:53
subject: <b>Not recycling, refilling!</b>
body:
I don't think the power <i>or</i> the taint is recycled. <br /><br />I think:<br />The source is like a infinit feed of energy/power/whateveryouwannacallit that the creator makes. <br /><br />At any given time there exists only a finite amount of power but it fills upp really quick so it never runs out. Perhaps it flows faster if there is a lower-than-usual amount of power (caused by someone channeling), or else time simply slows down (there is lesser power for the wheel) so the creator can &quot;catch up&quot;. <br />This huge, continuos power-feed goes into spinning the wheel = making time move. So it is used up. Channelers steals a tiny part of that power-feed to do other cool stuff with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Then that is used upp too. <br /><br />The taint is also a constant feed, only much slower and much less. It doesn't go into the spinning of the wheel though. It settles down outside/on top of/around saidin and when the male channeler taps it it gets mixed into the power he draws. The taint &quot;smears of&quot; at the channeler and the weave is clean. (In the growing of the ways there was no channeler to buffer the taint.)<br /><br />Rand simply drained all taint there was. It will regrow, only very slowly because there is only a few seals left and they are weak. <br />When the bore is sealed up again, using both halves of the source <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> there will be no leaking of taint into the source. <br /><br />(Lets just hope the AS of the next AoL aren't stupid enough to open it again.)<br /><br /><br />just my humble (though quite extensive <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) opinion<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="#B49449">/Ogier</font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>The root that catches the DO's toe.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 13:33:07
subject: <b>Yo, Eel-kid...</b>
body:
I was under the impression that the &quot;theory post&quot; was for conjecture, projection, prediction, identifying trends, examining and analyzing potential flaws, etc... in a well written series of fiction books but, MOST of all, for having FUN.  I was merely supplying some thoughts on the original Theory.  Please relax and enjoy the books and this excellent site (with a big thank you to the people who administor the site) dedicated to bringing people and ideas together.  Peace bro' and walk in the light.  Glory to the Lord Dragon and please pass the salt...<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-04 16:10:52
subject: <b>Hey Sabljak</b>
body:
In answer to your query about the ways I don't think they'll be clean anytime soon. I do believe RJ stated in an interview that while Saidin is clean, the damage that the taint has done will remain. Thus any man that has already gone insane will remain so. I imagine that this will ap[ly to the ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 05:14:31
subject: <b>YOU all forgot somthings!!!!</b>
body:
You are all wondering how rand healed the taint, What he did and i must admit that i'm equally intreged by that question. But some people out there still don't believe that the taint is cleansed, speaking of infinite and finite things saying that it is gone for now but will grow back later, you are all forgetting 3 things!!!<br /><br />1.The taint is not meant to be there, it is not a natural part of the wheel, it was put there buy the dark one, and has upset the natural balance in the world. It is no wander that the creater would want it to be removed, and who better to do it than the lights champion.<br /><br />2.There is a prophecy about this:'what &quot;wounds of madness and cutting of hope&quot; has he healed?'=Moiraine TDR pg 93. What else could the &quot;wounds of madness&quot; be except for rand cleansing the taint therefore preventing all the asha man from going mad and what else could give a &quot;cutting of hope&quot; that can be healed? As stated at the end of winters heart, &quot;below lay the tomb of Shadar Logoth, open to give the world hope&quot;pg 656.<br /><br />3.CLEANSE:to make clean, HEAL:to restore to health,cure<br />heal and cleanse both don't mean, make better now only to let it grow back later!!<br /><br />people the taint is healed, I'm sick and tired <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  of people not beleiving or not wanting to beleive the taint is healed, Get over it move along!!!


created: 2001-07-06 02:37:05
subject: <b>Yay JackForest!</b>
body:
About the finite/infinite thing, DOES IT REALLY MATTER?!?!?!  The power is not drained, as SOME peopole are saying.  In tEotW, Moiraine says very clearly that an Aes Sedai to the Source is like a water wheel to a river.  It uses the flow (flow, flows, hmmm...) to generate power, and the river keeps flowing.  The water wheel does NOT drain the river as it passes, and the river is being constantly refilled.  That would just not work.  Power = river, AS = water wheel.  Thus, a strong AS is a larger wheel, a weaker, smaller.<br /><br />So stop saying stupid things about power cords!  It's an insult to any who actually know what's going on!!!<br /><br />Geez...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 11:30:59
subject: <b>The infinite thing DOES matter, it is essential</b>
body:
If the taint is infinite, only an infinite force (which Rand didn't have access to and Mashadar isn't) could destroy it.  Thus, for the taint to be cleansed (as I think it is) it must be finite, so we try to establish that the taint is finite, first of all.  Read a philosophy book, you'll see that this is absolutely essential before all other speculation.  Now, a finite taint could still seep in, as was suggested, if it comes through the seals.  I however think that both the power and the taint are finite, the taint is used up, and you -CAN- get even with the Power because it is a supernatural force (from the Creator), and there is no seepage, for reasons already suggested.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 20:42:18
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
Coming almost a year after the post...<br />I like this one. It helps to bolster my thoughts about the Ways and the Longing.<br />Indeed, the damage done by the taint won't go away without help (next age?), and that Saidind itself is tainted, not just some layer over a pool, if you will.<br />I have always thought of Ogier like the elves of &quot;Forgotten Realms&quot; games, in that they are &quot;part of the magical weave, attuned to it.&quot;In the same way, Ogier are &quot;attuned to the Source&quot;, and when the male half got tainted, something wasn't right with the Ogier, and therefore needed to be cut off from the sourceto avoid its detrimental effects (the Longing).<br />Of course, why didn't Elder Haman (or some other wise Ogier figure this out? (That Ogier are attuned to the Source). It sould explain why hey were essential to Seed Singing....like all Talents, it has something to do with the Source. of course, maybe this is just speculation and has nothing to do w/Mr. Jordan's world of WoT. <br />Just my thoughts.<br /><br />Aloha,<br />Joe<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 09:35:04
subject: <b>With the taint now gone...</b>
body:
...does this have any implications on Fain's power. It's seemed to me that he has always drawn his power (or more simply that the source of his power was) from Mashadar/Shadar Logoth. Well, since Rand used SL to funnel the taint into, and in the process destroyed the city, will Fain's evilness abandon him? I mean, Fain himself in his PoV's has made it clear that he has become something greater than any ordinary darkfriend...examples including the torture of Myrdraal. So what happens now? Is his dagger no longer tainted, or is it like how the taint works on men, where any damage done will remain with them despite the cleansing?<br /><br />It's something that I've thought about but have been unable to speculate on any cool/interesting possibilities so I thought I'd throw this out for discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 15:26:38
subject: <b>Fain and the whopping size of the taint</b>
body:
Regarding Fain, no he'll be same as ever because he left SL, and personally (though this is obvious) I think Fain is a very integral character.  Sort of a gollum figure if you like.<br /><br />The taint was an oil slick that you had to go through to get to saidin (I have no quotes for this, and no urging to find any, but I'm certain I've read this in the books).  I think the cleansing worked because the evil of SL will have sucked the taint from the saidin.  So it was a case of pumping through enough saidin till it was clean, and not pumping through all of saidin.  Thats how i reasoned it anyway.<br /><br />I've only recently found this site, hence my replying to old posts.


created: 2002-07-04 15:32:39
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
umm, ignore me, i didn't realise there was 30 more threads below this one about the same thing.<br />


created: 2002-07-16 06:15:03
subject: <b>What taint ?</b>
body:
Who says that the taint can come back from Shaitan when the seals are weak enough ? The taint was thrown on the source at the counterstroke, and the seals now prevent the Great Lord from touching the World and Pattern, not the Source. The problem that eats me is, how long till the madness goes ? All the taint went through Rand in the filtering process...


created: 2001-07-03 04:52:16
subject: <b>Wrong sister,</b>
body:
I think you're thinking of Moiraine who told Rand not to use Balefire. She explained to him what it does in book 4 right after the dark hounds incident. I don't recall if she slapped him or not, but Cadsuanes slapped rand so many times that it's almost silly. I can see how the two can be confused though, they are a lot alike.<br /><br />   By the way i don't think Cadsuane even knows any compulsion tricks. Recall that Alanna (who is bonded with Rand) can't even control him. The idea that Cadsuan could use a weak trick that is more powerful than Alanna trying to use a warder bond, and somehow escape Rands notice is hard to swallow.<br /><br />   I do however commend you for thinking things out very nicely with what you had. I hope to see more of your stuff here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 08:02:13
subject: <b>Actually Lord Sauvant....</b>
body:
You're both right.  Moiraine did tell Rand not to use balefire in book 5 after she watched him balefire the dark hounds trying to eat Mat.  Right after balefiring Moiraine healed Mat and found out about his fox head ter'angreal.  Rand said he would use balefire because it saved Mat, and then he opened a gateway to go check on Asmodean and Moiraine was shocked by it.  Then fast forward to book 7.  Rand is among the rebels of Cairhien(and Darlin from Tear) and he is pretending to be somebody else.  He and several others are walking out in a group killing Mashadar(because Fain made it appear out of no where) and Rand used balefire to save a woman from mashadar.  Then Cadsuane slapped him and said don't ever ever ever use balefire again.  Then he used it to prevent Liah from being eaten by Mashadar later on in the book.  So that's what happened.  Interesting theory by the way.  Hmmmm, Cadsuane and cumpulsion.  It is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 08:05:11
subject:
<b>Curse this damn Blackboard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
It's really not right of me to post my thoughts on the main page and steal the thunder of a Blackboard post, so I have to do it here among the lay folk.  Grrr...why did you have to go and comment on this theory before I got up this morning, Lord Sauvant? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, Lord Sauvant has already pointed out, Alanna can't Compel Rand through the warder bond.  In fact she said that it was like &quot;trying to move an oak tree&quot;.  One would have to assume that the Forsaken have tried to Compel in their several encounters with him also.  It doesn't seem that they were successful; of course, that is pure conjecture, and I admit it as such.  Cadsuane is powerful, yes, but nowhere near powerful enough to Compel Rand.  As a matter of fact, nobody is.<br /><br />Not gonna happen.  Rand can't be Compelled, he is just way too strong in the OP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 14:06:45
subject: <b>Cadsuane DID use compulsion</b>
body:
Of course she did.  She used the same type of compulsion you and I can use:  she said, &quot;Don't you ever do that again, you little @#$%!&quot;  And being that she said it forcefully, he heard her words in his head the next time he came looking to use balefire.<br /><br />Cadsuane didn't do anything with the Power (as it's been pointed out, it's not likely that she CAN), she just used good old fashioned strong words to compel Rand into doing what she wanted him to do.<br /><br />That's it, nothing special.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 14:20:31
subject: <b>Monkey See...</b>
body:
Monkey Do.<br /><br />I can not recall if Moiraine ever actually told Rand never to use balefire...regardless, however, he watched her use it to destroy one of the Forsaken in the Stone of Tear.  It may be one of those &quot;Do as I say, not as I do&quot; situations, but if a parent tells his kids not to smoke and then lights one up...well, you can see where things can go from there.<br /><br />So maybe Rand just repsected Cadsuane in a different way in that she pretty much practiced what she preached as has pretty mcuh never been the typical Aes Sedai &quot;The Rules Don't Apply to Me, Just You&quot;.  Cadsuane differs from the other Aes Sedai in that she doens't play those stupid games..she flat out tells how it is (ie, &quot;Don't use that language with me&quot;.).  I think that Rand sees this, sees that she is not playing the games with him, and he respects that.  That may be why he hesitated to use balefire against Sammael in that situation...kinda like, Mom's not there and I could get away with it, but it would disappoint her if she ever found out.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-03 17:34:02
subject: <b>Back to Theory!</b>
body:
I don't think that Cadsuane used Compulsion on Rand since the &quot;modern&quot; Complusion can't be used so easy. Remember they're running thru the fog at this scene. I doubt even that real Compulsion could have been used in this scene!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:18:01
subject: <b>Wow all the good black boarders are here already...</b>
body:
Well I think you guys have already covered most of it, and I agree with almost everything all of you have said.<br /><br />Especially Kaiser Karl's I think all it was, was a good old fashion face spanking.<br /><br />And what is with all the slapping from cadsuane, she whips him silly in that book.<br /><br />But then again, something you guys left out comes to mind.  I've never read New Spring, but I've heard from many good sources, most of which were on this site, that Moiraine thought Cadsuane was a darkfriend.  What if she is.  <br /><br />naww, I like the idea that she's a good guy, but I'm not going to completely subdue that possibility in my mind, and I urge anyone else who reads this to do the same.<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS  Bad Ash, where'd you get the flashy animation to go beside your name?


created: 2001-07-03 19:57:26
subject: <b>Interesting, but doubtful............</b>
body:
Well, that was an interesting theory, but I seem to recall that you couldn't use compulsion on somebody who was holding saidin/saidar, and with his comments that perhaps Rand overcame the weak Compulsion, no, I think he just remembered what Cadsuane said before he balefired Sammael, causing him to change his weave....although I suppose anything is possible........but slapping him to put compulsion? They always showed Compulsion being used delicately, like weaving delicate threads...just something to think about........


created: 2001-07-03 22:44:22
subject: <b>slapping</b>
body:
I don't think slapping was part of that, like Savaunt says above, she slaps him more than is necessary, but then again, maybe thats the way Cadsuane does her weak form of compultion.<br /><br />That would explain the large amount of slaps from Cadsuane. Maybe she's brain washing him and slapping him stupid at the same time.  I'd like doing that more than Verin's form of compulsion if I had the choice.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-04 11:35:38
subject: <b>Compulsion implies chanelling...</b>
body:
And Rand would have known if she channeled... no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 12:35:38
subject: <b>Well there's always a tingly feeling when you get slapped</b>
body:
just read the title<br /><br />plus, he might not be thinking about goosebumps if he gets whipped in the face.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-04 12:52:07
subject: <b>Well KidBlondeel...</b>
body:
I am an ADMIN.  Thus I get nifty things. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 16:02:47
subject: <b>Not that this has anything to do with anything</b>
body:
But who is a sexier Aes Sedai. To put it another way who'd you rather go out on a date with:<br /><br />   Cadsuane Melaidrin<br />   Verin Mathwin<br />   Alanna Mosvanni<br />   Elaida do Avrihny a Roihan<br />   Sheriam<br />   Siuan Sanche<br />   Leanne Shariff<br /><br />   Just wondering. By the way when I say things like sexy I mean mentally as well as phsyically. Leane might be better looking, but I'd rather have an evening with Verin all to myself. Just being silly don't mind me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 16:28:03
subject: <b>Leanne = *boing*</b>
body:
Since when did intellect matter? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 19:24:27
subject: <b>Have to say sheriam</b>
body:
she'd get me in her office and we'd do a little S&amp;M.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS I think I'd actually pick Alanna, I don't know why...


created: 2001-07-06 02:19:46
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
didn't mean to do that.  Sorry!<br /><br />btw, Kidblondeel, Sheriam is a darkfriend.  I would steer clear of her.  Also, Siuan's annoying, Cadsuane's just strange, and Elaida is a b***h.  That really only leaves Leanne, Alanna, and Verin, and Verin gives me the creeps.<br /><br />So, between a Domani and Alanna, which is the best?  Duh.  As if I had to point that out.  You barely have to think before picking Leane.  I mean, as Bad Ash said, if it's a Domani, does what's inside her head really matter?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 10:46:04
subject: <b>When did Sheriam turn Dark</b>
body:
When did Sheriam go dark?<br /><br />I don't remember this<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-07 09:26:46
subject: <b>Details</b>
body:
First off, Rand used the Balefire against fog created by one of the &quot;bubbles of evil&quot; which appeared in the rebel camp south of Cairhien not Mashadar which only appears after dark in Shadar Logoth.<br />     Secondly I think Rand would have felt her channeling a slap wouldn't hide that plus that leaves very little time to lay a web of compulsion on Rand. Another interesting thought, I was under the impression that compulsion didn't affect people holding the Power yet I seem to remember Graendal using Compulsion on Moghedien and Cyndane(Lanfear)<br />when Moridin(Ishmael) sent them to have a chat with her and I'm reasonably sure they were holding the Power at the time.


created: 2001-07-07 16:33:55
subject: <b>Cadsuane.......Balefire.......</b>
body:
i read that part of CoS a couple days ago, and as i remember it, Rand has just gotten those little red-lines-of-fire shot at him by Sammael, and as he was going to balefire in the same direction, he remembers the slap and Cadsuane's words, so he alters the weave a little and does the same little red-lines-of-fire back at Sammy. I dont think Compulsion, as in the weave had anything to do with it. Instead, i think its just that Cadsuane is from Far Madding. Steryotypes always surface in WoT. Alanna sulks and pouts like an Arafelian (sp?), Tairens dont like the one power, Domani women are...........the only women in WoT who seem to realize if they show a little bosom and kiss well enuf a man will swear an oath to the Dark One......but Far Maddings, ( as said by Elyas i think ) point and expect a man to follow, and snap and expect a man to jump. <br /><br />Moiraine tells him not to use balefire, but i think she does accept that sometimes its needed. Like when killing a Forsaken. She does concede that without balefire Mat would've died in the Darkhounds attack, and had she seen what him using balefire on Rahvin did, she would've seen this as good as well. <br /><br />Rand also doesnt use balefire on purpose to save Liah. He's about to blast Sammael, then hear's Liah's scream, turns to see her, and his hand just kind of follows. Rand never would've killed Liah on purpose, even if Mashadar did take a hold on her.<br /><br /><br />I forget who said it, but i agree with him that the fog at the Camp when Fain slices open Rand is a bubble of evil, not Mashadar. a single whisp of Mashadar touching you means your screwed, but the fog at that camp grew hands and tore people into little pieces and stuff. People didnt scream when they entered it, only when it .........tore them limb from limb. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-07 21:11:50
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I just reread that part of the book.  I was actually looking for who Demandred might be (I am positive he is not Taim), but that's beside the point.  It is very clear that the fog IS Mashadar.  It was summoned by Padan Fain in order to cover his approach (and tear people up).  Without the fog, Fain would never have gotten close enough to stab Rand.<br /><br />The difference in the fog can be explained easily.  It's not in Shadar Logoth.  It isn't close enough to it's source of power in order to kill by a touch, but it's still strong enough to tear people limb from limb.  Besides which, did anyone who went into the fog survive at all?  No.  Therefore you can't really argue that it didn't kill them by touch.  Mashadar might just have fun tearing up his victims.  Like dinner.  Hmmmm.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for the feedback on my theory.  BTW, I did not mean Compulsion as is used by Moghedien.  Verin discovered a very crude form of it, so it's possible Cadsuane could have, too.  A very weak form, easily broken especially if you are the Dragon Reborn.  The slapping is probably just how she learned it.  I didn't say it was likely.  Just possible <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 10:07:41
subject: <b>the late Sammael</b>
body:
Sammael is dead! Dead, i tell you! Dead! He's deaddeaddeaddead! RJ even said so in an interview! He's dead!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-17 14:00:33
subject: <b>not likely</b>
body:
From what we've seen of Cadsuane so far, it doesn't seem like her to use Compulsion on Rand, especially a weak form. Although I believe she probably knows how - she seems to know many things that no one knows about - she has taken a very direct approach to Rand. When she doesn't want him to do something, she lets him know. Mostly, she tries to control people in two ways - either by bullying them into doing what she wants, or by planning out carefully what she wants them to do so that she has no other choice. Using Compulsion because she was angry over him for using balefire, just on the spur of the moment, would be indirect but not well planned, not typical of Cadsuane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 18:25:24
subject: <b>No way did she use compulsion</b>
body:
That's just NOT her style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 01:00:27
subject: <b>It was a bubble of evil.</b>
body:
Mashadar cannot leave Shadar Logoth (apart from Fain of course) or else it would roam like the black wind. <br />And as for Grak and his &quot;did anyone who went into the fog survive at all? No.&quot; <br />Yes no one except RAND. Unless you think his dead at least five people survived and that rules out Mashadar's instant death thing.


created: 2002-12-15 01:13:06
subject: <b>Compulsion</b>
body:
Why is it that every time Rand has a twinge of doubt or guilt about something he has to do, someone thinks it's because someone used Compulsion on him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Vengeance is Mine,&quot; sayeth the Lord.  I'm just here to arrange the meeting.<br />This is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 03:16:23
subject: <b>Cadsuane's Lesson</b>
body:
Just a little comment on the Lesson, i dont think that it could be this. Cadsuane clearly states what the lesson is in WH &quot;I'm going to teach that boy to laugh again, and cry&quot; Thats all there is to it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 00:39:02
subject: <b>For the date question...</b>
body:
Siuan, b/c she breaks rules, has a strong enough character to survive getting stilled, nearly dieing a couple of times, being Healed, but being at a lower strength, etc, etc. I don't know, either she, Moiraine, or Nynaeve are my favorite Aes Sedai so far.


created: 2001-07-04 16:53:16
subject: <b>Well hmmm.......</b>
body:
.... I would think that fact that Lanfear has a mindtrap with her name on it would indicate that Shaitan has punished her for ill behavior. There is however a big difference betwee her and Asmodean. Asmodean was a useless innefficient dork even before he started helping Rand out.<br /><br />   When the other Forsaken got out of their prison the decided to start setting themselves up to help out the cause of the dark. Some became rulers, others infliltrated organizations that could prove detrimental to the DO if left unmonitored. Everyone was putting in effort, doing their part and pulling their weight, except Asmo.<br /><br />   He was in hiding and waiting til Al'Thor narrowed down the numbers of Forsaken. So at least Lanfear was doing things that helped out the cause of evil. For example she got Moiraine out of Rands corner. Asmo was just a weak little fence sitter that wasn't doing anything beneficial to help out Shaitan.<br /><br />   I think that if Ishamael was a traitor that Shaitan would know about it. If he has said that he wants Rand alive then Moridin will do all that he can to make sure that Rand doesn't die, including kill other Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 19:10:09
subject: <b>I'd like Ishy to be a traitor...</b>
body:
but I agree that it's extremely unlikely.<br /><br />Incidentally, I thought theories that would be responded to with &quot;In a word...no&quot; and then each point irrefutably debunked wouldn't be posted?  Or maybe it's just because it's the first suggestion of it's kind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 19:57:23
subject: <b>Random thought here</b>
body:
Does anyone else ever wonder if Moridin get the same kind of channeling sickness that Rand has. This is of course assuming that he was the wanderer at Shadr Logoth that save Rand from Sammy L. If he was, then what side effects might he have had from the balefire crossing? Maybe that's part of why he sticks with the True Power for now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 23:15:22
subject: <b>I can't remember</b>
body:
I can't remember, has it been confirmed that Rand's channeling sickness was directly related to his balefire crossing with the wanderer who is most likely moridin?<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-04 23:50:16
subject: <b>Fear is the reason...</b>
body:
Not all of the Chosen are pulling thier weight around here.<br />As some may say, Asmodean was 'cowardly' and he really didnt help the Dark One at all by hiding while following Rand.<br />But we can also take this approach towards Graendal, who supposedly sits in her palace as a withering old bag.<br />Is she pulling her weight by sitting around play the Game of the Houses?<br />Also we have to look at Bel'lal. He was in the Stone of Tear and he perhaps did the same thing as Asmodean. Waiting for Rand to take the 'sword that is not a sword' before attacking.<br />This is the same as Asmodean when they fought over the male saidin ter'angenel (however its spelt) during the storm in the three fold land.<br /><br />Again the same can be said with Lanfear, i mean she let her feelings for LTT get in the way of doing anything worthwhile, so how about we just leave the little dead musician Asmodean alone.<br /><br />I liked him, he was a'ight...<br /><br />Cheers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 04:53:18
subject: <b>There will be NO Nae'blis</b>
body:
After Dark One have won Last Battle, he will kill every Chosen. Dark One will allways rule alone. Nae'blis is just a trick to have people help Dark One, because he/she can't touch the world. Because Ishamael/Moridin was great philosopher in the Age of Legends, he must have figured this out. But I can't say is he a traitor, he seems to be compleatly loyal to Dark One. There's something strange in their relationship.


created: 2001-07-05 15:15:42
subject: <b>i would be very greatful 2 thy if he would stop calling me a traitor!</b>
body:
ok for a start i didn't read the comets...so don't bother 2 try and connect it!<br />secondly we don't yet know that ishy is moridin! ( i was very tired when reading WH and meybe missed something...so tell me about it!)if it is ishy then ishy had manipulated the forsaken for 3000 years 2 the DO's wishes and we have alread known since the first book that he was free all of those years htat the other ones in prison and in those years he also controled the worled...arthur hawking...didn't had a problem with Aes Sedais...and i won't be suprize if he is hte one who sent mordet 2 harhidol in hte first place even IF his plans got mixed a bit in hte way...<br /><br /><br />another...moridin is not a traitor cause i thinkhtat the DO couldn't REALY be free untill he defets rand in the last battle...<br /><br />so basicaly your whole hteory is shattered...bla lba lba...get here something real guys not sh!t like this!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 22:52:27
subject: <b>Response to Jussi comment</b>
body:
I just wanted to responde to Jussi's comment by saying I agree.  Ishy is &quot;the smart one&quot; (among both dark and light side).  I believe he has his own agenda and plays by his own rules.  By calling himself Be'alzamon (sp?) for the past 3000 years and acting the part should tell you something.  As Jussi says, the DO and Ishy relationship is a strange one...  I think they both realize they need each other but there is no lost love.<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-07-06 02:05:57
subject: <b>Rand meets Wanderer</b>
body:
Don't ask, I was stuck for a name.  Anyways...<br /><br />When the streams crossed in SL, Rand saw a double version of the Wanderer, which is the same as he sees when someone is cut off from the DO.<br /><br />Just wanted to point that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 10:21:38
subject: <b>On Rand's Sickness</b>
body:
(Okay, a little off topic)<br /><br />I could certainly be wrong, but I always took the nausia, (sp?) blurred vision, and dizziness as the cumulative effects of channeling tainted Saidin for too long.  I mean, isn't it a maddening sickness that slowly but surely causes the channeler to rot from the inside out?  <br /><br />It seems to me that the above ailments are merely early symptons of something that will surely kill Rand if he has to deal with the taint too much longer.  Now we know he may not have to worry about absorbing more of the DO's taint, but I don't the think the sickness inside him vanished completely as soon as Saidin was cleansed. <br /><br />Now I like the idea of his contact with the True Power at the end of ACoS agrivating the channeling sickness, but I do not think it was the sole cause of the dizziness, nausia, ect, because both the taint and the TP came direcly from the Dark One.  But I beleive that every man who channeled before the cleansing was destined to experience something simular sooner or later.<br /><br />But of course, I could be wrong.<br /><br />The Great Lord on the Jon  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-06 21:32:05
subject: <b>Ishy's idea</b>
body:
Ishy knows there will be no nae'blis.  Evil must consume to survive.  Once the DO breaks free, he will kill everyone.  Ishy knows this but is convinced the DO will win.  So he starts trying to meld with the DO.  He starts using the TP and starts talking as if he is the DO.  I think this is his plan.<br /><br />Incidentally, Be'lal wasn't just sitting around waiting for Rand to show up.  He plotted with Mesaana to have the 3 girls go to Tear as bait for Rand even though it wasn't neccessary.  I believe he also once went and scared Alviarin to death (not sure).<br /><br />Graendal isn't a coward.  She is just not as interested in becoming Nae'blis as she is in surviving.  She is furthering the DO's cause in her own minuscule way so he lets her live.<br /><br />-the Xenocide


created: 2001-07-06 23:07:24
subject: <b>Defender of the Asmodean</b>
body:
Hey i am defending Asmodean alone here, i dont believe he wasnt 'pulling his weight' so i jump in defense of the little bugger.<br />And i am sorry but Graendal is a coward. <br />'One who runs from duty is forsaken to live in fear'<br />A comment i think applies to the Chosen...<br /><br />They know they are damned if they do and damned if they dont, so they might as well as make an effort and try to do something more useful..<br /><br />anywayz i care not<br /><br />Asmo defender out<br /><br />Cheers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 03:31:56
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Asmodean was the coolest, out of all the characters in Wot I like him best, next to mat of course, but then again, everyone likes Mat, except maybe the female persuasion of Wot readers.<br /><br />Of all the forsaken, I'd have to say that Asmodean was Mr. niceguy, you know, didn't get in the way, didn't piss anyone off, well he did when he went to rand's side, but that wasn't his fault.  I wish he hadn't been killed, cause the story might of been a little more interesting on that road.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS Whats with everyone referring to the forsaken as the chosen, I smell a little bit of a conspiracy goin on there...


created: 2001-07-07 16:06:00
subject: <b>Everything........</b>
body:
On Moridin being a traitor<br /><br /><br />Moridin, aka Good Old Ishy, is prolly at the bottom of the &quot; Forsaken to Betray the Dark One &quot; list. He's bean free in the world for over 3,000 years, channeling the True Power all he wants , and manipulating the hell out of plenty of people ( like Artur Hawking ). He had all the time in the world to think &quot; The Great Lord is never going to break free, none of the other Forsaken are going to break fre........i'll never get laid with these eyes....&quot; Which he prolly did, but ...either his devotion was too strong, he was having too much fun...........or he's just REALLY insane.<br /><br /><br />On Different Chosen siting around doing nothing......<br /><br />I think thats the sign of a neseccity driven Chosen. Bathameal and Aginor went to the Eye of the World to try and kill Rand, and they both failed. Which is why they were given a second chance. Lanfear, while usually doing things that suit her own needs, occasionally did help the Great Lord. Sure, Balefires assures that the person cant be brought back........but do you think the Great Lord really would've given Be'lal OR Sammael a second chance? Be'lal was killed by Moiraine, who, while being a formidable Aes Sedai of THIS age, is a child playing with a shocklance compared to any Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends. Rahvin was so concerned with getting some nice-looking-bosom that he didnt prepare enuf to take on Rand. Sammael hid in his little broken-english country the whole damn time and never did anything to help anyone. Ishamael stuck Rand with a True Power wound, then got out-matched at the Stone when Rand had Callandor. The Great Lord cant fault him for being outmatched in Power, and given his resume, he brought him back. Asmodean was another case of a free-loader who wanted Power. Ishy doesnt want power. He has power. he's had it for over 3,000 years. So. In case my rambling was too much for you to handle.....Every Chosen but Ishy sucks. Well.....Sammmael actually isnt too bad. He has the best nickname. Destroyer of Hope. Cant beat Ishy though. sorry Sammy.....


created: 2001-07-08 14:30:45
subject: <b>Some clarifications....</b>
body:
Actually Knave, I recall that Ishamael was the one known as &quot;Betrayer of Hope&quot;. This was menioned in the prolouge to EotW. It would then seem kind of redundant for Sammy L to call himself &quot;Destroyer of Hope&quot; wouldn't it?<br /><br />   By the way Xenocide I think it was Ishy that was spooking Alviarnin, not Bel'al. I don't recall if her POV moment mentioned the name B'alzamon or not, but she did thik of a face with burning eyes. That sounds more like Ishamael than Bel'al. <br /><br />   Man it seems that Ishy dude got all the cool jobs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 20:17:37
subject: <b>Be'lal bugged her too.</b>
body:
In fact, in ACOS prologue Alviarin's POV reveals that Graendal met Ishy, Mesaana, Be'lal, and Graendal had paid her visits.  We know what the first 3 wanted, the question is what Graendal wanted out of it.<br /><br />Further, Rahvin and Be'lal were not fools.  Al least Be'lal had a plan to gain real power.  He gambled and lost.  His only mistake was not zapping Moiraine on sight but he had no reason to suspect she knew balefire.  Only Sammy could have suspected.<br /><br />Rahvin would have wiped Rand out had not pathetic little Moggy been leashed and Nynaeve saving him out of the blue.<br /><br />I suspect the DO would have brought both back as of Be'lal's time, their orders seem to have been to kill Rand (Ishy's strike).  Rahvin fought in self-defense and was set up by Sammy, the rogue baddie.<br /><br />Dispenser of Devastation<br />The Xenocide


created: 2002-03-03 17:14:52
subject: <b>What Moridin wants</b>
body:
Moridin wants what Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Baalzamon always wanted: the end of the world.  He knows there will be no Naeblis because there will be no world.  He is the only one of the forsaken to have figured it out.  He followed the DO out of philosophical conviction, the rest out of power lust or, in the case of Asmodean (who is surely proof of the fact that nice is not the same as good), time to become an artistic genius.


created: 2002-03-21 11:32:13
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thanks for supporting Me. I AsmodeanLL be Nae'blis and then all who support me shall be given their due, and all those who call me Asmo will burn! BURN!<br /><br /><br /><br />-Asmodean-


created: 2004-10-16 13:52:33
subject: <b>moridin</b>
body:
yay someone else figured out ishameal! nice catch sarah. Moridin/ishameal seems to be right in line with the DO's thoughts and goals, whereas the other forsaken, in fact all other followers of the DO are there for power. Ishameal obviously had the power and intelligence during the age of legends to attain a place of power if he had chosen to, instead he was a philosopher ( a much more indirect way to influence the world). Moridin may indeed take down certain forsaken and not others, but I believe his game and the DO's coincide. Moridin isn't a traitor to the dark one, he simply understands that the DO's goals and that of the other forsaken don't coincide. so in following the DO's goals, he has at times been at odds with the other forsaken (which he always seems to come out on top of anyway)


created: 2001-07-04 23:54:44
subject: <b>Jordan is the Creator...</b>
body:
I would love to believe this theory and have it that Rand is the one who ends the Dark Ones evil touch on the world for good....BUT... we have Robert Jordan who says that the wheel is continuous and that everything turns into myth legend, yada yada yada (refer to first paragraph of each book), he said this himself...<br />Therefore i think he is going to end the series, by starting it again.<br /><br />But yes, a climax that breaks the wheel would be good reading fa sure...<br /><br />Cheers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 03:29:28
subject: <b>I like your main point</b>
body:
I agree in your main point, that if the quote in the index is true, this *should* lead to the end of the wheel at some point and that this makes the infinite wheel an impossibility.<br />But on the other hand we have RJ's comment that the wheel is endless, so maybe there are some factors which limit the number of changes introduced to the pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 05:33:24
subject: <b>wheel stuff</b>
body:
ok boys and girls please keep your hands and feet within the ride at all times. <br /><br />concerning your third point... this point would be the closer of your argument except for the idea of the tar'veren.<br /> <br />tarveren are spun out just when the things start to go funny. they are needed for the large changes to restore the wheel to what it should be. <br />so things couldn't go so far crazy as to create linear time unless the the tarveren are controlled, which strangely enough sounds like what<br />the 'bad guys' MAY want to accomplish. this is consistent with the desires of Naeblis and the seeming hesitance he has toward killing him. <br />'if it comes to that yes' i think that was his comment concerning the death o' Rand.<br />blarg


created: 2001-07-05 08:38:31
subject: <b>To comment on everybody</b>
body:
First Raserei: even if the pattern unraveled, that wouldn't much matter because now you're in non-pattern linear time.<br /><br />Second to Madrox Stalin: I believe that also, I just put this here to dubunk people who said the wheel goes on forever because it's a wheel...flawed logic, saying that ANYTHING is flawlessly self-perpetuating.<br /><br />Third to ursidae: Yes, I agree fully.  The only thing is that Jordan is a physicist, so I expect he's seen this too...perhaps it's like a film reel, with two alternating wheels?  Probably not, but in theory that *could* account for the eventual seemingly-inevitable linearity.<br /><br />Fourth to blarg:  Ta'veren are designed to keep the wheel close to the pattern when things go wacko, but even with them the quote I gave still says that each turning causes greater change and variation.  Therefore, the Ta'veren don't work 100%, otherwise the wheel would fluctuate, a wacky turning and then an orderly turning then in-between then orderly then wacky etc. etc. etc.<br /><br />Hmm...I'm still trying to understand the &quot;there's something I'm missing, but you are too&quot; comment...what should I say?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 17:56:40
subject: <b>Small theory</b>
body:
I believe the world was made by the Creator at some point meaning that we don't really have infinite time (at least backwards). We know that the DO's goal is to destroy the Wheel of Time, right? If, as someone claimed, the Wheel allows for greater freeedom for every turning then it will at some point be possible to achieve that goal. What that means is that there will come a Third Age when the Wheel will be broken and linear time will have begun with the First Age of that turning; there will be an actual LAST battle. The only thing left to settle is who is going to win the LAST battle and shape the world as he sees fit, the Dragon or the DO? This would also fit nicely with something Cadsuane said. It was something along the lines of: if the last battle was tomorrow it wouldn't matter if Rand won or lost because the result would still be the same (not sure about the actual quote). What Cadsuane has to teach Rand and the Asha'man, I don't really know. Perhaps it's simply how to become peaceful once again (they were trained to be weapons, after all). This is a lesson that, I believe,  will only be useful to Rand if this actually is the LAST battle and he wins. If it's only another last battle like all the ones that have come before, then I believe that he will definitely die. However, if this is really the LAST battle that would mean that at the end of it the DO would be either destroyed or banished from the world instead of merely locked up where some curious Aes'Sedai can find him again thousands of years into the future. The interesting thing here is: What would happen to the Creator? I don't think he could exist without the DO (it would disrupt the Yin Yang equilibrium of the world) so if Rand does win the LAST battle then both the Creator and the DO will be removed from the world for good. Perhaps at the end of the series R-world (I refuse to use the other r-word) will turn into earth with its' linear time (at least we think it's linear). <br /><br />Anyway, I've rambled for long enough now so I'll just sit back and wait for comments on these thoughts of mine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 19:31:08
subject: <b>Another interesting thought....</b>
body:
First off let me just say that even if I don't agree with this theory that I like it. It inspired a thought the other night.<br /><br />   Lots of folks have stated that WoTworld is most likely earth in a future cycle of the wheel. Well that got me to thinking of the book of Revalations. Lots of people think it tells about the end of the world when it really doesn't. It tells about a period of great change that among other things involves the world being made anew. <br /><br />   That prophecy also mentions that at the end of the big battle that Satan (i.e. Shaitan) would be imprisoned for a period of at elast one thousand years during which peace and prosperity would reign on earth. Nothing is ever said of what happens at the end of the thousand years.<br /><br />   Perhaps that thousand year imprisonment ended with the drilling of the bore. The great beast (or Dark One if you will) wasn't broken free yet, but his prison was disturbed. <br /><br />   By the by I really like the idea of the Dark One and the Creator being removed from the pattern. It gets to the root of many stories of the goal for a world that is free of influence divine or demonic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 22:31:16
subject: <b>yup</b>
body:
whoever wrote that RJ is going to end the series like he begins his books (The whole age turn to myth, turning of<br />the wheel.........)  is most likely correct.  I don't know if I'll be anoyed or not.  The whole last scene of the series is<br />probably going to be that.


created: 2001-07-06 01:57:53
subject: <b>Idea</b>
body:
One think I noticed that no one else seemed to.<br /><br />The wheel will keep changing, okay, I buy that.  Who says it always goes away from &quot;Wheel-time&quot; towards linear time.  Maybe it's like an ebb and flow kind of thing.  For a while it gets closer to linear, then it slowly drifts back towards &quot;wheel-time&quot;, then away again, so that there is always change, just not in the same direction.<br /><br />That would work well, I think. What about you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 11:08:22
subject: <b>Rathan</b>
body:
The quote, I believe, is pretty clear, that the wheel goes constantly away from the original pattern and doesn't sometimes flow back.  &quot;Always subject to greater change&quot;...to me that looks like destiny is decaying, not flowing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 12:49:38
subject: <b>Problem with the quote.</b>
body:
Just because something is increasing, doesn't mean that it will get bigger than a certain value (ie, the value at which the wheel breaks).<br />For instance, if we represent the amount of 'change' at every turning of the wheel as a number, and our sequence increases like this;<br /><br />1<br />1+(1/2)<br />1+(1/2)+(1/4)<br />1+(1/2)+(1/4)+(1/8 )<br />.<br />.<br />.<br /><br />...then the total amount of 'change' in the wheel will never get above 2, but it is always increasing. If the wheel will only break when the 'change' is greater than say 10, you could have a situation where it's always getting worse, but the Wheel will never break.<br />With Robert Jordan being a physicist, is it possible he knew of sequences like these (convergent sequences) and based the idea of 'increasing change' on them?<br /><br />(In case you can't guess, I'm a mathematican <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ).


created: 2001-07-06 15:13:54
subject: <b>Good point, mathematician</b>
body:
However I have to argue that by the nature of that frog who jumps halfway across the log, then halfway again, practical calculus forces you to accept that after infinity jumps the frog will indeed jump the log.<br /><br />Infinity is very strange.  We can see that no matter what, there must be a finite amount of time between the point of creation and the current time, yet time stretches infinitely onward, in paradox (this is something that people like to bash creationists over the head with, but let's not get into that argument).  So, after infinity turnings, time WILL reach the constant 2 and the wheel breaks.  Infinity will happen.  But the NOW of it will never be at infinite time after Creation.  Therefore we see that the constant 2 will never be reached AND it will inevitably be reached.  An asymptote, in a way.<br /><br />So what if the number we're going for is 3, and infinity only takes us to two?  Well, I admit I hadn't thought of that before.  My answer (and I'm no mathematician):  We see that the wheel is getting farther from the original all the time, which means that it is always getting closer to the breaking point.  Therefore there IS no three, because as soon as you hit the infinity of two you still are approaching 3.  So three, is in fact two in this case.<br /><br />My problem with your point is that I don't think the wheel's &quot;breaking point&quot; can be put into a constant.  First, I expect the catylyst for linearity would have to occur at a major event not necessarily concurrent to the exact moment the wheel hits an arbitrary &quot;breaking point&quot;.  Second, if the first is not so, it doesn't seem right to me that a transition to linearity from circular time would suddenly break.  I know you are proposing that it never breaks, but imagine a world the Creator makes that DOES have a breaking point within the limits of Time's constant but otherwise having the same natural laws as wotworld...it doesn't seem to make sense.  It's hard to explain.<br /><br />I stand by my statement that given that time makes variation, in an infinite amount of time infinite variation occurs, and something that varies infinitely from a pattern is not in fact following the pattern.<br /><br />You are correct in that the quote seems to allow for the increase in the pattern's entropy to inversely correlate to the amount of entropy already existing, however I think that is in plainer terms nit-picking (then again, my whole theory is a nit-picking argument, isn't it?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 16:02:58
subject: <b>The mathematic ostrich</b>
body:
Sadly, the mathematics I've been taught so far tends to follow the 'head in the sand' pattern- they say that there is no such thing as infinity, just 'tending to infinity' which kind of ruins this entire thread.<br /><br />But that's boring, so lets ignore that.<br /><br /><br />Ok, I've had a look again at the 2 or 3 problem, and this is my take;<br /><br />Firstly, when the time from the birth of the wheel is finite, 'change' is less than 2.<br /><br />When the time from the birth of the wheel is infinite, 'change' *is* 2.<br /><br />Is there any other point in time apart from the above two (ie; beyond infinity)? <br /><br />Infinity + Infinity; If you take the terms from our first infinity, and place them at the odd numbers of a number line of integers, and you place the terms of the second infinity at the even numbers of that new number line, you can see that 2 infinities are the same size as one infinity (I know there are similar arguments for when time is continous and when you are multiplying infinities, but this post is already too long <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />Therefore, the only possible 'changes' you can get are numbers less than or equal to 2, therefore there does not exist a number for which 'change' is greater than 3, therefore the wheel does not break.<br /><br /><br />Oh yes, and as for your comment about the idea that represents 'change' as a number may be wrong,... I have to say you are probably correct.<br />I just wrote this idea as a possibility- as in it's *possible* that the wheel won't break and that quote can hold true. (I'm devil's advocating in short).<br /><br />And as for nitpicking, really the idea that we are doing that just because we are using in-depth arguments on the nature of infinity to attack theories on how a book series will end.. Ridulcous! I know I would never nit-pick like that!<br /><br />(BTW, Infinite variation doesn't necessary mean no pattern- you could have a circle whose radius is always expanding, but it would still be a circle). (Self-irony intended).<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-07 01:07:34
subject: <b>on the nature of time</b>
body:
I would love to talk to everyone about higher order math (it has always been an interest to me), but I am afraid :<br />a)  I do not type very well<br />b)  No one really cares anyway<br />So, N-pole singularities, the residue theorom, etc... will have to come later...<br /><br />Back to the heart of the Theory Post.  &quot;Time&quot; my friends is a &quot;dimension&quot;.  Along with all the other &quot;known&quot; dimensions (last I checked, the BS theories needed a minimum of 13 for any semblance of a Grand Unified Field Theory to work), &quot;Time&quot; was created when the Universe was created.  On the flip side, &quot;Time&quot; will end when the Universe ends.  The creator and the DO are outside of time (or, in other words) outside of creation (images of Carpenter song &quot;looking down on creation&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  If the DO wishes to &quot;break the wheel of time&quot;, what would one think this implies?<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />p.s.  Many beliefs / religions of OUR world speak of a cyclic nature to the Universe.  Many even speak of 7000 year cycles.  Mr. J is probably not a physisist, but I believe he is a well read man of religious history.  Just an FYI...


created: 2001-07-07 11:22:27
subject:
<b>I like these arguments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Vary few do.  I think the three of us are VERY weird.<br /><br />You're right, of course, about the circle with the infinite radius.  *starts to think of some way to argue*.  Actually I never said that time would be TOTALLY linear, but would become quasi-linear.  And, if it is possible for an event to break the wheel, it is more likely to happen the closer the wheel gets to linearity.<br /><br />To Tim: I was not referring to the DO breaking the wheel, but to the theory that either Rand (now or in a later turning) will end the cyclical nature of the universe or the cyclical nature will just &quot;run down&quot;, if you will.<br /><br />Also, I have to quote the DO &quot;even I cannot step outside of time&quot;.  Both the Creator and the Dark One are subject to time, the DO is not outside of time, just outside of the pattern.  Time was present before creation, else how could there be &quot;before creation&quot;?  If time is destroyed, it creates a paradox because there is no &quot;after time&quot;, beginnings and endings are defined by time (my own philosophy) and therefore time can neither begin nor end because they imply that beginnings and endings have influence outside of time.  The wheel of time is a system designed to perpetuate the pattern which encompasses the people of wotworld (I sound communist in this sentence, don't I?).  The destruction of the wheel does not destroy time, it merely destroys the pattern (in an oversimplification, it grants large-scale as opposed to small-scale &quot;free will&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />The only people in the universe not influenced by time are those who were balefired.  Possibly balefire is just a &quot;warp beam&quot; which removes the dimension of time from a person but leaves them alive (but I doubt that's how it will work out in the books).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 12:59:55
subject: <b>To &quot;my master&quot;</b>
body:
Dear Master,<br />  I am afraid that I have to disagree with you on the nature of time.  Past and present Theoretical Physics theories belive that &quot;time&quot; is a dimension and was created when the Universe was created.  There was no &quot;before time&quot; and there will be no &quot;after time&quot;.  What you see is what you get...  It is a zero-sum game my friend.  Now back to the &quot;fiction&quot; (of course, it could ALL be considered fiction...).<br /><br />Refering to my WoT / Judaic analogie, the Creator (who is outside of time / outside of HIS creation) punished the DO by subjecting him to the &quot;constraints&quot; of his creation.  The DO being trapped by time is akin to the DO's prison.  The DO gets VERY angry when the &quot;even the DO is bound by the wheel of time&quot; thing is mentioned.  I believe this is because the saying gets to the heart of his/her true &quot;imprisonment&quot; and the fundamental falling-out with his old buddy the Creator.  They were once pals before the Universe &quot;split&quot; into its dual nature in order to sustain its &quot;existence&quot;.<br /><br />Just some random thoughts my friend.<br /><br />- Tim (aka. The Doctor)<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-07 23:50:26
subject: <b>Pattern / Age Distinction</b>
body:
There's a difference between the pattern of an Age and the Age itself.    &quot;. . . each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, receding into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing.  With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree.  For each Age there is a separate and unique patter, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age.  This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only be partially changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave.&quot; (The Guide 13-14) Thus, while the patterns of say the Third Age may vary wildly each time the Age returns, each pattern leads to the construction/fulfillment of that Age.  Variations within the pattern are not the result of entrophy but are predetermined corrective measures designed to produce the Age.  The only way any change could break the Wheel is if that change was imposed on it from without--i.e., the Dark One.


created: 2001-07-08 10:07:28
subject: <b>To Tim</b>
body:
We are getting to the touchy subject of Creationism.  I do not believe that there was a time when the universe was created.  I really don't want to argue this on a messageboard, but it means that your statements are inapplicable to my argument (and probably vice-versa, as well).<br /><br />I do however like your argument that Creation was designed as a prison for the Dark One and that's why he was imprisoned at the moment of Creation.<br /><br />Whoever's above me: usually when I say pattern in my theory I meant the &quot;original&quot; pattern by which the Creator designed Creation to be.  If the pattern is different every time but always kind of the same, as you say, then anything is possible, really.  At any time EITHER side could break the wheel and go linear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 08:07:25
subject: <b>time. change.</b>
body:
'The  Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each<br />                  time it us subject to greater change, but each time it is the same Age&quot;<br /><br />                 ' This is in fact proof that the Wheel CAN end'..... Your.Master<br /><br />Despite the fact the time can be linear, the events that are chronicled through time* are cyclic. destruction -&gt; building -&gt; destruction <br />So, time could be represented as cyclic despite it really being linear.  a sundail is a neat example here. <br />Infinite change within the Pattern from the Pattern with the passing time will still lead to certain events happening. <br />the process of change will happen always. <br />whether it be the eroding of mountains or the death of people there will be a regular occurances around which a 'clock' of sorts could be contructed. <br />The Wheel could be chosen however you wish to describe a somewhat regular occuring change in history (destruction, rebuild)<br />The wheel would exist as long as the event the defines the wheel exists.<br />however the event that defines the wheel is change itself... <br /><br />so infinite change can not break something that is defined as change<br /><br />blarg<br /><br />phaw...<br />* unfortunately we can only observe the passing of time through the changing of some condition. <br /><br /><br />. <br /><br />


created: 2001-07-09 11:32:59
subject: <b>The whole point of the theory -</b>
body:
Too many people were saying that the wheel of time can't go linear because it's a wheel.  This was basically a theory to say &quot;Guess what?  It can&quot;.  I'm not sure what to believe.  But it does disprove the original sentence, therefore time CAN go linear (as I said)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 07:39:04
subject: <b>The Dark One will win</b>
body:
Given infinite that an infinite number ages has taken place then the Dark One would have had to have won in at least one of them.  Then the Dark One would be free instead of imprisioned so that shows there has benn a finite amount of time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Three Golden Pillows<br />Master of the Evening<br />Adequate Opponent of the Day<br />Painter of UUnimaginingly Complex Paintings<br />He Who Was Born in the Fog<br />Rider of Dolphins<br />Flyer of Kites<br />Maker of Pies<br />Slayer of Geese<br />Occosional Wearer of Fine Si</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 20:54:05
subject: <b>hey...</b>
body:
	Hello YourMaster.  Well, about the &quot;there's something I'm missing, but you are too.&quot;  PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR YOU!!!   YOU are missing!  That's what's meant by &quot;you are too&quot;!  Step forward!!!  Get off the &quot;missing persons&quot; postcard! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  I amaze myself... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 23:43:10
subject: <b>A few things to consider...</b>
body:
*Gets up from dead horse*<br />*Hides whip*<br /><br /><br />While the theory is interesting (anything dealing with physics, space/time, and the ilk usually is), it is simply the use of Murphy's Law, brought into WoT terms (And according to this law itself, it finally has).  What you have basically stated, Your.Master, is that anything can and will happen.<br /><br />Just curious how linear time works, the definition I found of it (Please bear with me, I am highly interesting in physics and time and such, just have a poor background in it) is as follows:<br /><br />The temporal continuum created by a succession of events in which earlier events imply later ones and later ones are consequences of earlier ones.<br /><br />.... Whatever the hell that means.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong I understand the face value of this sentence, just not sure how that would apply in regards to whether time is beginning or endless. Having read most of the preceding arguments, I formulated this analogy to help clarify things (For myself mostly)<br /><br />If you roll a typical 6-sided die, an infinite amount of times, you get both the result 1, and the result &quot;Anything except 1&quot; an infinite amount of times.<br /><br />Therefore, if the pattern is an infinite wheel, it both breaks an infinite amount of times, and it both runs perfectly smooth an infinite amount of times.  Thus:<br /><br />Infinity !&gt; Infinity<br /><br />Same as with the asymptote analogy.  Since an asymptote is by definition getting infinitely closer to the line, it never ACTUALLY reaches the line, because infinity is well, infinite.  Mathematics saying it reaches the line AFTER infinity, is just a helpful term, (Like religion) to help man move onward instead of backward, attempting to deal with things one cannot possibly comprehend.<br /><br />This is perhaps a roundabout way of saying that, yes, to a degree your.master is correct, if wheel time is infinite, the infinite variations would lead it to linearity.  But, also one the obverse, since there is an infinite amount of time leading up to the linearity (I.E. the asymptote analogy), time both, always exists as a wheel (= infinity) and reaches linearity (= infinity).  Rendering everything paradoxical.<br /><br /><br />Just my thoughts on the situation, too bad I caught it this late, and it is doubtful it will continue, just something that always peaks my interest.  I thank you fellows for occupying my time, and letting me amuse myself for a little while.  These arguments are always damn fun.<br /><br /><br />JMoridin.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> One Cool Guy.<br />


created: 2001-07-05 04:12:50
subject: <b>Interesting side note...</b>
body:
I'm 90% sure two of the skeletons in Tanchico are animals we know today.  One is described as a slender four-footed animal and having a extremely long neck.  Which I take for a giraffe.  Another is the Elephant.  That's the skeleton that Egwene comes face-to-face with when she first reaches T'A'R.  It's interesting to note how the Seanchan use elephants so they're obviously not extinct over there.  One last skeleton Egwene describes as somewhat like a bear but with two front teeth longer than her arm.  Maybe a giant beaver, or a hippo, or a sabertooth tiger...<br /><br /><br />P.S.  Not that it matters of course.


created: 2001-07-05 07:48:27
subject: <b>ok no dragons but ........</b>
body:
hate to disagree with you Raserei , but how do you know the grolm didn`t come from a mirror world , for all anyone knows the Ogier or the Aiel could have been saved from a world where they were going to die by Aes Sedai. Or for arguments sake &quot;those who new the numbers of chaos &quot; who made the portal stones ( Verin mentions them in book 4 ). Perhaps they simply got the chance to breed properly in seanchan who knows .<br /> I`m disappointed someone who reviews the theorys seems to jump to conclusions so easily !!!!( no offence )<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 08:57:49
subject: <b>I'm pretty sure somewhere in the books</b>
body:
It is explicitly stated that Grolm and other Seanchanspawn came from the Portal Stones (perhaps via the breaking, perhaps via Ishy).  Portal stones are 2-way transportation to infinity, you know, even a less-than-real infinity.  An almost-creature can live in a true world because a true creature can live in an almost-world (they've been there).  Who's to say that visitors from other world's don't see wotworld as gray and indistinct?<br /><br />But yes, I always took to museum of Tanchico to contain an elephant, a giraffe, a sabretooth tiger, and some others well-described by Jordan as &quot;some others&quot;.  In fact, these animals kind of fit the WoT-is-Earth theory, because giraffes seem to be as extinct as dinosaurs by now, and the sabretooth is older than us...but of course I didn't put that in the theory because it's not really good evidence at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 12:03:37
subject: <b>Dragons</b>
body:
I believe that in the world of Wot, dragons are just mythical creatures like they are in our world.  It would be kind've neat if Dragons all of a sudden flew to Randland across the waste from shara, but I think that this is more like how King Arther had a dragon for his crest, it's just symbolism I think.<br /><br />Plus if Dragons came from anywhere, I think they'd come from seanchan, because their culture is based on Chinese, (I think, it might have been Japanese) but alot of things involving dragons in our world came from that area, heck the dragon is part of the zodiak, I think thats how you spell it. But anyway thats all the cents I can cough up on this.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 13:46:33
subject: <b>have we seen dragons?</b>
body:
I know this is might seem asinine, but the first time I read about the raken and to'raken, I thought RJ was describing a dragon-like creature: long, sinusous-scaled bodies, reptilian in form, wings.  Or am I just waaaay off base here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 14:58:55
subject: <b>grolm</b>
body:
grolm do come from the mirror world it says so in the guide.<br />it says that they were brought in to combat the trollocs in the age of legends...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 15:01:23
subject: <b>oh...read this...!</b>
body:
ok i'm 100% sure that dragons DO exists!<br />ok for once can u remember that in hte great hunt rand and hte other 2 follw the path that wasn't yet made?<br />well then that means that they could track dragons and follow them on their own world!<br />ok now thats only one posibility 2 find Dragons!the other one is that dragons must exist cause for THE LIGHTS WILl THEY ARE ON HTE ARMS OF THE AIELS AND ON LTT's FLAG! and that means that they were known of in AoL!<br />its quite obvious that RJ will bring dragons in2 the books osmeday! but when is not yet known...we know htat he is going 2 continue AFTER the last battle from the prophecy that the BT will fight the White tower after the LB...<br />but the REAL question is what powers will they posses?<br />i guess that it will be osmething like mats medalion but there could be more...<br />and there'a another thing...if dragons exist for hte light then what exists for the darkness?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 15:11:16
subject: <b>Could the above be formated or translated?</b>
body:
-confused-<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 19:19:24
subject: <b>Me too</b>
body:
Me too<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 19:45:00
subject: <b>Yep check the Big Whit Book</b>
body:
I do recall a part that made mention of Grolm and other exotics coming from mirror world to fight the blight in the AoL.  <br /><br />   As far as b rining in Dragons by portal stone I don't hink it'd work. They would be a bit large to tranport and hard to feed even if they could make it there.<br /><br />   There may be some dragons of some kind in Shara. If there are we may hear Noal talk about them in book 10. If there are any then I think that they'd be the long no-winged non-flying type since that is what is on all the artwork.<br /><br />   I still don't see how bringing in dragons this late in the series serves any purpose though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 22:17:59
subject: <b>Just something to add</b>
body:
There is also some dream, I think maybe Egwene's or Perin's, not sure.  It was something like Rand waving his<br />arms and the creature that was on the dragon banner or his arms (sorry can't remember, but the point is it was<br />dragons) were flying above the sky over his head.  I wish I could remember what book.  This dream could be literal<br />or symbolic.  Anyone remember what I am talking about, any comments?


created: 2001-07-06 10:43:22
subject: <b>No no no</b>
body:
No no no, that was Egwene's, she was just having a dream, or premonition of Rand going to Rhuidine.<br /><br />It's of Rand in a dusty room (symbolizing the waste) And then two figures the same as the one on his banner fly through the air and land on his fore arms.  Yeah I think thats what happened, you could be talking about a different one I don't remember<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-06 22:04:52
subject: <b>The Quote</b>
body:
re: the Seanchan monsters<br /><br />&quot;These strange new beasts were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parrallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn&quot; (Guide:163)<br /><br />This worked as Seanchan's Blight has been cleared of all but Draghkar.  I doubt the Mirror Worlds have too big a part to play.  No one understands them and I doubt anyone could find what they want except by dumb luck.<br /><br />-Xenocide


created: 2001-07-07 03:22:33
subject: <b>Dragons</b>
body:
Even if there were a couple of dragons lurking around, I'm not sure the story really has room for them.<br /><br />I mean, what would they do?<br /><br />Fly around and breathe fire like the stories, nawww, Wot never really (in my mind at least) fit into one of those groups of books where anything could just pop out of no where, not that I'm bashing those books, I like em, alot, but wot never seemed that way to me.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-07 21:47:17
subject: <b>UMMMMMM....</b>
body:
Why does it matter if there are dragons?  Does this change the story or make it better in anyway?  KIng Arthur was called the red dragin of Britain.  That doesn't mean there are red dragons some where in Britain.  Andnobody went looking for them to make his story better.  I don't understand why where the dragons might be has any revelence.  Besides NO WHERE in the story have actual, physical fire-breathing dragons been even slightly foreshadowed as being needed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 14:27:15
subject: <b>Okay, unless I'm off my rocker here....</b>
body:
Didn't Robert Jordan state in some chat, or interview that there weren't going to be any dragons introduced in WOT? I thought that was a well-known quote..........I could be wrong, but I don't think so.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-11 02:27:45
subject: <b>I like the power construct idea</b>
body:
I like the idea of a power wrought dragon suit or something, like rand sort of riding in the belly of a giant dragon created by all the powers vs a big creature of some kind controlled by moridin created by the true power, that at lest would be a cool finishing scene for the book.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-12 20:43:02
subject: <b>I've GOT IT!</b>
body:
Dragons are JO/SHO-Helicopters!!!  We've heard of Jo-Cars, and Sho-Planes, so why not Dra-guns, guns being a military term for a military vehicle/weapons platform?  After war was abolished the pronounciation of guns was corrupted to gons.<br /><br />Sorry, too much Phar Lap and an OD on Perrin is Verin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 10:57:19
subject: <b>I don't think so..</b>
body:
No way!! Ah! Ah! No, I certainly hope not. Hey, we talk about dragons, but that doesn't mean they're hiding around in India<br />somewhere. Anyway, I just think putting Dragons in the story (especially past the halfway point) would be way<br />too cheesy for Jordan. I'm sorry, I just seriously don't think this is going to happen.


created: 2001-07-25 17:22:41
subject: <b>ARGH!!!!!</b>
body:
WoTLand! <b>NOT</b> Randland!! Ahhh. Everyone, repeat after me, WoTLand, WotLand, WotLand, WotLand, WotLand.....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-05 19:07:38
subject: <b>wishful thinking</b>
body:
	it would be realy cool is dragons show up (I am a total dargon freak) and would probably end the seachans advantage of flying creatures but I think this is mostly wishfull thinking since dragons would seem out of place in WOT


created: 2001-09-17 19:40:37
subject: <b>Grolm</b>
body:
Grolm were stated as being brought from a mirror world to this one to fight for somebody, either the Seanchan, or maybe the Light in AOE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hammer of the Light,<br /><br />By The Grace of the Light,<br /><br />High King of the World,<br /><br />Lord of the Six Gates,<br /><br />Master of the Winds,<br /><br />Artur Hawking</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 15:32:27
subject: <b>I have to agree</b>
body:
It's obvious that dragons must at least have existed at one time, due to the recurring images of them.  I don't, however, think that the fossils are dragons--someone surely would have noticed the similarity.  Nor do they necessarily have to be from a mirror world, if they exist on the other side of the Aiel Waste.  No one knows what's over there anyway, though hopefully we'll find out soon enough.  As for what is or is not out of place in WoT... Is it just me, or does Jordan keep introducing things that seem out of place at first (like the Seanchan), but develop them enough that they eventually fit right in?


created: 2004-02-25 02:52:08
subject: <b>Dragon descriptions</b>
body:
I agree with Lord Savaunt.<br />The dragons that are on the arms of Rand, Aiel and the Dragon Banner do not have wings.<br /><br />Here is the description from Book 1 The Eye of the World.<br /> - A figure like a serpent, scaled in scarlet and gold, ran the entire length, but it had scaled legs, and feet with five long, golden claws on each, and a great head with a golden mane and eyes like the sun -<br /><br />No wings mentioned.<br />This description sounds like the dragons of Chinese and Japanese legend.<br /><br />I don't think there are going to be any dragons in the series.<br />Robert Jordan himself said there are not going to be any dragons.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 01:58:07
subject: <b>Bells and their durrability</b>
body:
Not only are the bellfounders the only ones capable of handling that quantity of metal, but bells in that time period were the only metalic objects that had the ability to stand up to repeated, regular and intense preasure from within.  Standard metals are not up to the chalenges of internal explosions, but bells can take it and survive with great dependability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 08:50:53
subject: <b>Yeah I figured this one out long ago...</b>
body:
But only you had the brains to post it!<br /><br />D'oh!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 12:06:39
subject: <b>Hah</b>
body:
Well I totally agree with you, I was hoping somebody could come up with some proof for how Mat could recreate cannons, or rifles and such, but all I had was the possibility that a shocklance from the age of legands was really a rifle, or gun.<br /><br />Thank you very much<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 15:12:25
subject: <b>I submitted it some time ago...</b>
body:
but it never got posted... Go figure, maybe they don't like me over there... Still, since we think the same, I'll say : good thinking!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 18:21:52
subject: <b>Um, Dumb question</b>
body:
Uh, can Aludra and the Illuminators channel??? I'm working on a project, and I kinda need to know. I remember the second time we met her in TDR (when Mat saved her hide) that she lit a lantern (seemingly) without anything.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Still looking for Warders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 19:16:02
subject: <b>No they can't</b>
body:
No they can't, Aludra invented matches in the Wot world, that's what she used in TDR<br /><br />You hear more about it while Nynaeve and Elayne are traveling with the menajerie, or however you spell it...<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 19:33:56
subject: <b>Very right!</b>
body:
Cannon's and Bells are both made out of Bronze too (*good* cannons, that is), and both have very similar shapes.  I don't know of any renaisance proffesion that could mold a large amount of concave Bronze.  Also, I suspect that we won't actually get rifles, but something more along the lines of siege guns and Arquesbesqes (sp?).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 10:39:23
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
I dunno, If Rand could get his little students and inventers working on it, they could probably create rifles after a while.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-07-06 15:19:58
subject: <b>I'm pretty sure it's spelled &quot;Arquebus&quot;</b>
body:
Which basically is a handheld cannon, so if cannons are made (I think they will) there is very little doubt that the arquebus will follow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 03:18:18
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
I'll agree to that<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-09 03:04:48
subject: <b>Obvius</b>
body:
I think the reason no one posted this before is thet it is so Obvius. It was the weary first thing that popt into my mind when hearing about the bellfounder.<br /><br />The fakt that Mat do not realise this leads me to think that it will infakt be Aludra that invents the cannon. Mat may or may not then come up whit the smaler Hakenbursen fore use from horseback. Machslock muskets fore infantillery. And maybe the steem wagon in Catheren will make the first tank?


created: 2001-07-09 21:00:18
subject: <b>Ammunition</b>
body:
Could the bellfounder also be used to make the ammo for the cannons, i forget how cannon balls are made but they would need to make ammo somehow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I do be the Illianer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />   Proud Australian   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />'I Belive that this is a prawn, not a shrimp'<br />'I am confused about the process of confusion' <br />'Do you like apples? I got her number, how do you like dem <br /> apples!'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 10:57:59
subject: <b>So stupid</b>
body:
This is not a good thing to think. If guns and such were created then one of the major concepts of tWOT. Blademasters would be a waste of time. And channelers would become close to extinction. Do we won't the destiny of our channelers and such to be death and forgotness.<br /><br /><br /><br /> A dull blade is better than nothing at all.


created: 2002-02-23 21:52:34
subject: <b>Not a cannon, rockets!</b>
body:
Remember, Aludra wants the bellfounder.  That is, it's for something she already knows how to make.  We've already seen that Illuminators can make rockets (fireworks going off up in the air), so I think it's far more likely that she wants the bellfounder in order to machine proper nozzles for them (otherwise, who knows where they'd end up).  Bellfounders would be one of the few people experienced enough in machine metal to create a good venturi for the nozzle.


created: 2002-03-06 15:58:33
subject: <b>how about rand</b>
body:
just to complicate things I'm gonna add this... When Rand first arrives in cairhien with loial and is chased by the trollocs into the illuminators' chapterhouse he uses one of the launching tubes as a primitive gun. maybe RJ will make rand talk to mat and aludra about this and they develop the idea


created: 2002-03-06 22:37:33
subject: <b>Rand's an idiot......</b>
body:
Well maybe he isnt now but he was then at least as I remember Rand's encounter in the chapter house he accidentily knocked over a rack of launching tubes then somehow lit them causing them to shoot horizontaly into the walls.  Rand didn't do anything intentionally in fact he was lucky not to blow himself and Loilal up.<br /><br />Lytjan Morilin<br />The theif of Cairhien<br />


created: 2002-03-15 19:24:04
subject: <b>Following our own History</b>
body:
I think this has a lot of truth to it and will clear up some loose ends of the plot lines of WOT.  In our own history it was bellfounders who made the first cannons, when  gun powder was brought over from China in the 13th century.  Also furthering this I think that Aludra will reunite the Illuminators under this.  For as history tells us the making of cannons was a very protected art and the makers themsleves created clans to protect the making. Since the illuminators already are adept at keeping secrets i think that this will be just another thing they will adapt into their craft.  This would also keep some continuity of the whole throughout history that people used swords etc and not allow gunpowder to become too prolific.


created: 2002-03-22 16:22:35
subject: <b>Mat + Gunpowder = Frightening.</b>
body:
We already know he's interested in what makes the fireworks explode...but Mat and gunpowder is just a tad scary. LOL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />~~Kaidrin Faeraih Sedai~~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />~~Blue Ajah~~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 00:11:06
subject: <b>re: Silly Randlanders, guns are centuries off...</b>
body:
Anything created by Randlanders will be rudimentary at best.  How long did it take people to go from gunpowder to the rifles and such some people believe will be present at the Last Battle?  CENTURIES.  There will be some form of cannon, but nothing more.  Anything else simply isn't believable...<br /><br />Heck, if we're asking for them to have rifles and guns (in the modern sense), why hasn't someone proclaimed Mat to be GW Bush and demand that we nuke Shayol Ghul pre-emptively?<br /><br />&lt;/sarcasm&gt;<br /><br />Heh...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ian Bauer<br />baueri@seattleu.edu<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />&quot;Narg smart.  Narg know Res Ispa Loquitor.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 08:44:40
subject: <b>Cannons yes, rifles no</b>
body:
This theory is fairly obvious to me, I thought of cannons the moment a gunpowder expert asked for a metallurgic expert, the bellfounder. (in WoT it will not be called gunpowder for the obvious reason that they donot have guns)<br /><br />So I think Aludra will add a cannon division to the Band of the Red Hand and Mat will wreak havoc with it.<br /><br />But I donot think that rifles will be made too. Rifles are much more advanced, because you cannot make them out of brass. Only steel has the right properties to be made into a narrow tube small enough to carry, and still be strong enough to withstand the explosion of gunpowder inside it.<br />Making steel tubes is a lot harder than working with brass, because to melt steel you need much higher temperatures then for brass, and I dont' think you can cast steel or iron tubes, only smith them somehow.


created: 2002-07-08 04:37:51
subject: <b>NO RIFLES!!!!</b>
body:
If RJ introduces rifles and stuff into this perfect fantasy world i will be very dissapointed... <br /><br />It would make the series bad and if it weren't wot i would quit reading it... <br /><br />A fantasy world is supposed to have magic and swords and stuff... not guns and cannons. If they want explosives they can use the aes sedai as they did in two rivers when fighting the trollocs...


created: 2002-12-27 16:39:30
subject: <b>guns?</b>
body:
i don't think that gunpowder and guns will be very effective in Randland because a person can just channel fire in the vacinity of the gunpower to set it off.


created: 2003-05-11 10:28:45
subject: <b>Egwene's dreams confer it</b>
body:
In one of Egwene's dreams she sees Mat bowling thousands upon thousands of men over using a lead ball. A lead ball that might be shot out of a cannon maybe? I think so. Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 12:41:20
subject: <b>to add on this</b>
body:
not only does Aludra hint at a cannon, Egwene has a Dream in which Matt is bowling at pins that look like soldiers, and she knows that each one represents thousands. I dont know if anyone else has pointed this out. I have to go check, so sorry about any reposts.


created: 2004-07-21 02:00:32
subject: <b>why dont you</b>
body:
Keep watching the Discovery Channel, maybe you will get some common sense from it!!!!!!!<br /><br />this was so obvious that i dont even know how it got on here, someone was probly asleep.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-30 13:05:59
subject: <b>Wow....</b>
body:
Okay, I am dumbounded. When I first saw this, I thought it was a joke. The answer is the most obvious thing in the world. What does Aludra need a bellfounder for? A damn bell. Damn, what are you guys even thinking. You guys are thinking what can <b> Mat </b> use a bellfounder for. That is the eventual outcome, but Aludra is just an Illuminator. My guess is that somebody like Olver or Talmanes will figure it out. Just so obvious.


created: 2005-02-02 07:40:03
subject: <b>...Duh.</b>
body:
I have yet to meet somebody who hasn't figured that Mat will invent a cannon. What sort of idiots make up the 3% who disagree with this?<br /><br />As for the rest of your theory...no. Aludra wants a cannon because then she can sent her fireworks farther out, and higher up, and several at the same times. Mat is the one that's going to make it work for battle.


created: 2006-09-08 19:08:19
subject: <b>CONGRATS</b>
body:
Congratulations, this is the first theory i've read that has been proven correct in the books. the cannons of course are Aludras &quot;Dragons&quot;


created: 2008-09-22 00:00:22
subject: <b>Rifles this early....</b>
body:
would be a step back for the up coming TG because the rifles would be so rudimentry that they would kill more goodguys at this point that ShadowSpawn cause they won't have time to train or test them properly we would have several mass produced versions of midevil guns that are just as likely to blow up in the riflemen's hand as they are to shoot or do nothing....<br /><br /><br />BUT!!!<br /><br />we have seen working prototype grenades and mortars so you add those to the dragons and those faboulus crossbows that the Band recently aquired then we are in business<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-08-14 16:33:44
subject: <b>guns</b>
body:
But only you had the brains to post it!<br /><br />D'oh!<br /><br /><br />Your.Master <br /><br /><br />I agree<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Time to roll the dice<br />woolhead<br />blood and bloodly ashes<br />may you always find water and shade<br />the bloody dice are rolling in my head again<br />im not mad! yet....<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 08:49:15
subject: <b>Lookie!</b>
body:
Somebody has been reading the message board...this is a more well-developed version of a theory that I JUST posted there (Taim=Taim plus Taim=Demandred, the compromise theory)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 10:29:47
subject: <b>Interesting, but doubtful!</b>
body:
While this theory is interesting, there is one problem with it.  If Demandred was masquerading as Taim, he would have to use the True Power, not the One Power.  Otherwise, any male channeler would sense that he was using Saidin, even if his weaves were inverted.  Also, using the TP too often is not a good thing, as RJ has mentioned in earlier books.  Therefore, I don't think Dem is Taim in disguise.<br /><br />A.O.B.t.D.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> 1000 Cool Points for whoever figures out my name! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 12:21:30
subject: <b>True Power</b>
body:
Well if anybody other than ishy is gonna be able to use the true power, it would have to be Demandred, he's loyal to the dark one, and he's pretty much 2nd only to moridin.<br /><br />But there are only three possibilities for what happened.<br /><br />1)Taim was turned to the dark by a circle of sisters just like the black ajah girl in tear said after she was captured, the one that hadn't been stilled, I can't remember her name.  Lets not forget that things happened to Taim exactly the way she said they would.  The only difference was that he didn't masquerade Rand and try to ruin his reputation.  <br /><br />2)Taim was a darkfriend all along, and was broken free, and laid in wait for a long period of time for no apparent reason at all. (obviously one I don't believe)<br /><br />3)Taim is Demandred, or a proxy for him, but the person, or identity of Taim is under Demandred's controll.  Hence the evidence that everyone already knows (facial features, mannerisms, ect.)<br /><br />Well 1 and 3 are most likely and I personally believe that 3 is the correct one.  But then again, a combination of the two is very possible.  <br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-05 15:07:20
subject: <b>Doesn't have to use the True Power</b>
body:
He could tie off an inverted disguise.  Simple, efficient, and it works.  Plus, the description of Taim IS similar to Demandred's physique<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 15:46:48
subject: <b>Great minds think alike</b>
body:
Actually Your.Master it took them a few days to put my theory post up for public display.  I posted my theory before your post on the message board which did indeed show you had reached the same conclusion as I did -as you weren't able to read my theory at that point, it does seem we both came to our discoveries independently of one another.<br /><br />As for the objection that Demandred would have to constantly channel to hold his disguise as Taim, I must agree with Your.Master (once again!).  If Demandred tied off the inverted weave it should hold without active effort.  Remember that this is just what Moghedien did to disguise herself amongst the Aes Sedai at Salidar.  If it had required her to continuously hold saidar surely she would have been discovered with all the Aes Sedai around.


created: 2001-07-05 18:18:46
subject: <b>GIVE IT A REST!!!!!</b>
body:
Okay, we've been arguing about this theory for the longest time, and all we can do is wait for the next book to come out, that way we have some new evidence to throw around.  But until then, could we please have a new theory that isn't rehashed from every other theory that is out there????<br /><br />Like maybe, could Mat detect channeling before he got the foxhead ter'angreal??? He got goosebumps one time when he was in the WT and Nynaeve or Elayne channeled at him, and when Lanfear (as Selene) did something to him, he got a headache, but when she stopped, his headache went away. (or was it the other way around???)<br /><br />Anyway, please stop arguing about the same thing...&lt;mutters something about male chauvanism and always having to be right&gt;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Still looking for Warders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 11:16:03
subject: <b>Hey! I'm a great mind!</b>
body:
Wow...the only other time this has happened to me is when I concurrently (by messageboard time) proposed a theory that WoT is Earth (to my knowledge, the first one, definately the first on this MB anyway) to Mashadarman (now known as Mashy).<br /><br />And, to whoever's above me: shut up, I'm right!  I'm ALWAYS right!  This statement is true.  See?  Both true and false!  That's how all my statements are.  I'm certain that in a way, everything I say is in some way correct unless it was intended to be incorrect! *end male-chauvinism satire, begin natural male activities for a not-quite 17 year old*.<br /><br />Actually, even though the topic is old, I think this theory is quite new.  Before posting it, I (and considering how Zeratul posted, likely not he) have never seen somebody suggest that Demandred was Taim AND Taim is Taim, most suggest one way or the other, my way or the highway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 21:01:15
subject: <b>Men!!!</b>
body:
Okay, Your.Master....You sound like someone I know, but he would never come here.<br /><br />Anyway, back on topic, I agree that Taim is Demandred, simply because I haven't found any evidence (concrete, mind you) that says otherwise, or that Demandred is somewhere else.  Until then, I will just sit back and relax.<br /><br />But can we please stop beating a dead horse and concentrate on other theories???? PLEASE???!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Still looking for Warders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 00:09:08
subject: <b>RJ is sitting somewhere and LAUGHING!</b>
body:
You all realize that this theory and all of its tributaries has developed into a situation similar to that involving the murder of Asmodean.  RJ has given us all the facts we need and personally thinks that the answer is painfully obvious, but because people keep arguing the minor details they over look the major ones.  The answer is there, and it would be easy to find if you all put the same effort into finding it that you did into arguing with each other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 02:00:32
subject: <b>Asmo's death</b>
body:
Did we ever figure that one out? I don't even have a clue for this one.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Still looking for Warders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Visit my new web page http://www.expage.com/BardicTavern<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 03:59:19
subject: <b>Jordan</b>
body:
Bah, betcha he does it on purpose to watch us squibble over the most tedious details of what ever book.<br /><br />I know I would if I was a best selling author of a fantasy series<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-07 11:28:41
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I agree that we're beating a poor horse corpse...</b>

body:
I always hate Taimandred and anti-Taimandred theories when they come up.  But we have to look at anything with a fresh perspective on an old topic.  Who knows?  Maybe we'll find the Big Obvious Solution we've been overlooking if we continue onward.<br /><br />I hope you know I don't *always* act like my satire...I only do it when I'm right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Who do I sound like?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 11:36:31
subject: <b>hey Anima</b>
body:
My guess is that Asmo was killed by Graendal. It was basically a process of elimination thing on who was most likely.<br /><br />   I do however think that RJ likes to drive us buggy with quandries like these. He makes things difficult enough for there to be an issue, then sits back and slyly says &quot;but the answer is so obvious, you should be able to figure it out on your own.&quot;<br /><br />   Sneaky sneaky man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 13:18:35
subject: <b>Good thoery and excellent approach</b>
body:
I just wanted to say this is a good theory and an excellent &quot;logical&quot; approach.  It is the only theory which explains all the evidence.  Applaus for the Theory Author!  (and all co-inventors)  If you have not thought about it already, consider a career in Detective / Law Enforcement / FBI.<br /><br />Well done!<br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />


created: 2001-07-08 12:25:02
subject: <b>okay this is about Greandal</b>
body:
Asmo, supposely regonised his killer and said &quot;No..You&quot; or something to that effect, but if greandal killed him, then he wouldn't show so much reaction. People tend to underesimate greandal and i think asmo would have too. plus greandal likes to play with her victums, make them sweat. Amso wouldn't have been so afraid of her. okay i admit she is a likely candidate by the process of elimation but it's not her way of going about things.


created: 2001-07-09 10:18:24
subject: <b>My Bad</b>
body:
Oops, you all are right about Taim not having to use the TP to disguise himself.  I retract that statement, but I do agree that this is a dead horse.  I will refrain from beating it in the future.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> A.O.B.t.D. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 00:48:49
subject: <b>About Asmo, off topic</b>
body:
My theory (can't remember if I already posted this or not) is that Fain got Asmo.  Why'd Asmo recognize him?  Well, my idea is that he recognized the power Fain had via Shadar Logoth's boss (can't remember the name, now -- memory loss at 17 is *not* a good sign).<br />If Asmo suddenly saw the the big SL guy show up in his room via Fain he'd freak out.  Hence the reaction. <br />Yeah, I know it's far-fetched, but there it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 00:11:25
subject: <b>Asmo's Death</b>
body:
Jordan has said that at the time Asmo is killed it should be obvious who killed him.  Many Forsaken are ruled out by the fact that they hadn't appeared in the storyline when this occurred.  After re-reading the story twice after this info was given, I had to conclude and agree that the only possible suspect is Graendal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Shel</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 08:43:36
subject: <b>I just have to concur with Pento's statement here.</b>
body:
Oh.  My.  God.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 11:50:31
subject: <b>Ummmm, Errrrrrr, Ackkkk, Phttttttt.........</b>
body:
And Up is Right, and Right is Down, and Down is Left, and Left is up, and we are all we are, and I am you and you are me and we are all together. Ku Ku Kachoo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ptolomaeus<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Defender of Innocents<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Conservor of Useless Knowlege<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />CompTIA A+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Network+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Security+ Certified Professional<br />Microsoft Certified Professional <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 15:03:14
subject: <b>WHAT???</b>
body:
Dude, you've got problems!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-05 15:17:56
subject: <b>oh yeah, smee. and kibby!</b>
body:
well, its not abusurd, and i was not smokin anything!  just because i write a tyhery that you dont belive in does not mean you have to bash it....why cant you be sensative to other peoples feelings?  you two are inconsiderate, and i recommend a book called &quot;manners&quot; by someone...its a little red book that maybe you two could learn somethin from.


created: 2001-07-05 15:22:30
subject: <b>That's it, shaza! I knew I was overlooking something...</b>
body:
*NM*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 18:10:07
subject: <b>????</b>
body:
Um...Um...Please say that really didn't happen, because I would have caught it.<br /><br />*You really shouldn't play tricks like that on ppl....Especially when we have access to firearms.*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Visit Bardic Tavern, a place of story and intrigue<br />http://communities.msn.com/BardicTavern<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 18:18:11
subject: <b>props to shaza!</b>
body:
Excellent theory! Rj couldn't have wrote it better! We need more concise, well-thought out theories like yourself. Keep it coming, we're all waiting!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />DWarder<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 19:58:43
subject: <b>Or perhaps...</b>
body:
We're all the crazy ones and pigf*cker is the sane guy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 22:23:07
subject: <b>This runs along the lines of my Bela=Bel'lal theory</b>
body:
Can't........Stop....Laughing. any way. Bela is Bel'lal cuz of the name thing so  he can swivel his giant horse head anytime anyone in the Salidar  crew calls his name. When Moiraine was talking to him he wove Illusion to make it look like he was hit with balefire and jumped to where bela was, killed her and did that little trick Rahvin did to Rand but made it so he could channel. after that it gets all hazy but now he is on his way to the Tower munching on hay singing &quot;Hey Nani Nani, Tra la Tra la&quot;


created: 2001-07-06 01:30:54
subject: <b>............</b>
body:
I am becoming Frightened.....<br /><br />This is a bizzare theory, and those are some even more bizzare Blackboard posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 01:55:18
subject: <b>Why don't you ever send stuff like that my way?</b>
body:
Fan Fic needs some really wierd stuff.  See if you can throw something together.  That is, if you ever see this post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 08:51:02
subject:
<b>No!  Perrin=Verin theory belongs to Theory Post, damn it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Go back to your silly FanFic section with lack of content or anything substantial, and leave the well thought out, intellectual content in Theory Post where it belongs! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />hehehehe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 23:34:54
subject: <b>black is white</b>
body:
War is peace<br />Freedom is slavery<br />Ignorance is strength<br /><br />... see how they run like pigs from a gun see how they fly, I'm cryin'...<br /><br />If you prove black is white, you will go out and get yourself killed on a cross-walk.  Please be careful.<br /><br />hehehehehehehe    ;^m<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-01 02:50:35
subject: <b>oh, Tiiiiiiiiim,</b>
body:
Big Brother is watching you.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-10 22:25:25
subject: <b>Hahaha!</b>
body:
Hey did you post that JUST to get attention or do you like to be ridiculed?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Asian pride world wide!&quot;<br />&quot;Go for the eyes Boo!&quot;-Minsc from Baldur's Gate<br />&quot;They need a smiley wearin' one of those asian field worker hats...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> my friend bobby<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> WOT4life!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> go Mat!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-22 17:13:01
subject: <b>What Book Did you Read?</b>
body:
I definatly don't remember that scene in ANY book let alone a WoT book.<br />Are you sure you didn't  just get really High and dream it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Maker of Trouble <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Keeper Of Secrets <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Douser of the Holy Flame <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Long Live The Pixies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 19:38:42
subject: <b>umm...ninavee and AznNeedsRice66?</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but who exactly were you talking to there?  Me, or Tim.<br /><br /><br /><br />btw, Big Brother is from 1984.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 14:55:00
subject: <b>Whoa...</b>
body:
I doubt that's what it means... but it sounds really important... *makes note to reread that* Maybe it has other signifigance?<br />er significance<br /><br /><br />~Evamarie~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-01 19:10:44
subject: <b>Am I catching up to the rest of the messangers on this thing?</b>
body:
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!Y<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Slighly Sain <br />A bit Synical<br />Master Illit<br />Lord of Typo's<br />King Newbie<br />The Doomed BEDLAM<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 19:27:23
subject: <b>Sha!</b>
body:
And monkeys might fly out my butt.<br /><br />Surely you don't really BELIEVE in that stinking pile of donkey poo?<br /><br />If so, might I suggest you call up Betty Ford and see what she can do for you cuz you are smokin crack, son!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 22:16:34
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
*picks jaw up off of floor*<br /><br />Although I think everyone would agree that this theory belongs in the fan fiction section, we really should exhibit more manners toward others.  I won't even discuss his choice for a nickname....  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace is only found through victory, and fools aspire to peace and freedom without cost.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 06:53:24
subject: <b>Wow. I think we just discovered the Lord of Chaos.</b>
body:
Boy, pigcensored, you really make sense - snortsnicker - and I'm looking forward to -snickersnortsnicker - seeing more of your work in the *Theories Section*.<br /><br />But seriously, folks....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-26 00:11:38
subject: <b>Of Course!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Your logic is astounding!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That is all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-10 21:34:01
subject: <b>Your theory and some of the posts remind me of</b>
body:
Li Po.  Confusing and shi<i></i>tty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 08:47:03
subject: <b>Nobody outside of Australia is going to understand this...</b>
body:
Including me.  Tell me tell me tell me tell me.<br /><br />(Personally, I'd go for Bucephalus is Bela reborn, but...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 09:50:41
subject: <b>Not having much to do with the theory...</b>
body:
Can anyone tell me what's going on at DragonSworn?  Is the site dead?<br /><br />End of Message<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 09:59:47
subject: <b>You don't have to sit for long...</b>
body:
I didn't get this. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for the Dragonsworn li-whatever, everything is OK but this should rather be posted on the MB.


created: 2001-07-05 12:28:30
subject: <b>Austrailia</b>
body:
Why couldn't Phar Lap be Canadian?<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 13:37:36
subject: <b>no idea what Phar Lap is, so...</b>
body:
enlighten me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 13:43:23
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
at least ur the 500th theory posted<br />u got one thing going for u<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 00:13:37
subject: <b>WHO THE HELL IS PHARLAP!!!???</b>
body:
read title...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Gladiator Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Cup <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Defender of the Front Line <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Champion of his Land <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Singer of the Songs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> True North Strong and Free <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Crusher of All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 00:36:27
subject: <b>Phar Lap</b>
body:
I'm tempted to let you all stew, BUT...<br /><br />Phar Lap was a very famous race horse in Australia a few decades ago. He died in suspicious circumstances - think JFK with horses, and without the guns...<br /><br />Think about it - if the Forsaken want to tear the hearts out of most of the major characters, they have only to strike at their leader - BELA.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-06 00:46:03
subject: <b>Not to mention</b>
body:
They still have his heart pickled, in a museum somewhere...(anybody know where?  I can't remember).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~The Finkster~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Mischief maker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Eater of giant marshmallows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Procrastinator extraodinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i> Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-06 01:53:40
subject: <b>Not Phar Lap</b>
body:
If Bela is a reinkarnation of anything, I think that Sleipner would fit better. You know the eight-feet horse of Odin.<br /><br />Viking<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-06 03:49:41
subject: <b>out of hand (or hoof)??</b>
body:
OK isn't this getting a little out of hand?  Although I'm enlightened to learn of Phar Lap, come on.<br />This isn't as bad as Perrin=Verin though.


created: 2001-07-06 04:24:02
subject: <b>Absolutely</b>
body:
....how could I have missed it!<br /><br />I don't know about Phar Laps heart, but his body is in the museum of Victoria, in Melbourne.


created: 2001-07-06 22:02:06
subject: <b>Ignorant Americans</b>
body:
ahahahhaa<br /><br />Phar Lap, the marvel and master of horse racing...<br />And nobody but us aussies know about him, well i think thats hilarious.<br />I am a Melbournite and i knew the second that the question was asked if anyone outside AUS would know who Phar Lap was that we would get some dumb-founded american folk..<br /><br />ahh well we cant blame them, ignorance is in thier blood, like excessive drinking is in ours...<br /><br />cheers big ears <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 02:42:34
subject: <b>Phar Lap's heart</b>
body:
His heart was in the national museum in Canberra.  There is now a theory that this heart is not really Phar Lap's at all, but is an imposter.


created: 2001-07-07 05:14:46
subject: <b>PHAR LAP WAS A KIWI!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Everyone seems to have missed a very important point. Phar Lap was a KIWI horse. A NEW ZEALAND horse. His skeleton is in Te Papa Tongawera, our national museum. He is a KIWI horse, just like Sunline and Zabeel. NOT an Aussie horse. He has been claimed by Aussies for years, like many other Kiwi things, but he belongs to us. THEY are all just jealous. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> So there.<br />BTW, TREVOR CHAPPELL WAS A DIRTY CHEATER! AND BOWLING UNDERARM IS A CRIME ONLY YOU OCKERS WOULD COMMIT!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 21:15:26
subject: <b>What is with this??</b>
body:
What is with all the theories and junk on Bela?  It's a HORSE!  It appears in the first and second books, then never comes back!!!  Forget about the horse!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 03:40:35
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
Bela's in books 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and I forget if she's in the rest.  The only thing I don't understand is how can Bela be this &quot;legendary&quot; Phar Fig Newton if it's said she is, in fact, the Creator!? <br /><br />Oh yeah, and Perrin does equal Verin.  I can't believe people are just realizing this.  I thought it was a known fact.


created: 2001-07-09 03:30:13
subject: <b>Well Bela is at least alive in aCoS</b>
body:
Egwene mentions that she would rather be riding Bela than Dai'Shar (Glory) in A Morning of Victory.<br /><br />And she is SO Phar Lap! Brilliant! *sighs* at last, proof us Kiwis will be important in the 3rd age. *Smiles beatifically* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br />B<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Tuibird in Aotearoa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 05:35:52
subject: <b>oh, come on....</b>
body:
but yeah, he was a kiwi horse. but does it really matter, the 2 countries argue over all the important stuff, like pavlova, russel crowe, and footrot flats. and jay legaia(...still not too sure there...) <br /><br />but yeah, any kiwis want to talk wot? i'm thinking a dfs in the summer sounds good....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />mandarb@clear.net.nz


created: 2001-09-18 12:35:33
subject: <b>Re: story of Phar Lap</b>
body:
Hey, some Americans know about Phar Lap as well (22 y-o Females at that).  Derby winner, but I don't think he won the Triple Crown.  My personal favie faves are Swale (Derby, 1985?) and Spectacular Bid (would've been three Triple Crown Winners in a row, but hey, more important things happened that year 1979, ie, I was born.  hahaahahaaa)  Anyway, love the theory.  But I might think that Seabiscuit is more appropriate, as he was a bit of a runt as well.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Marian<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 05:26:35
subject: <b>we americans know something . . .</b>
body:
so am i the second person from america who didn't need to be told about phar lap? aren't we the special ones. but i think i like the seabiscuit thing better. but it's all one and the same and my horse is stepper reborn and that's almost as good.<br />i scream you scream we all scream for no-fat tofutti-rice dreamsicles.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 19:01:47
subject: <b>ITS A HORSE</b>
body:
First of all VIKING Oden's horse has 6 legs not 8 dumbass. And another thing you are all talking about some horse that was either a kiwi horse or an australian horse that was reborn as bela? Bela is a little shaggy horse and is in a BOOK.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 07:47:27
subject: <b>Movie</b>
body:
I know about Phar Lap cause I saw the movie that came out in America when I was a kid.<br /><br />Richard


created: 2002-03-13 17:09:03
subject: <b>I don't see how that works</b>
body:
How can a horse's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> body be in one museum while it's skeleton is in another?


created: 2002-05-07 10:50:09
subject: <b>BELA IS A HORSE!!!!!!!</b>
body:
geez, I'm with Grak, bela is just a horse, yes, she is a chararcter in a book but that does not automatically mean that she is someone reborn, there are no conspiracy theories on bela (at least there shoudn't be) she is just a shaggy mare in a BOOK.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Crystina Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Watcher of the Seals<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Crystina Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Watcher of the Seals<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />She who sits behind WoT Books<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> Its a scary world out there!!<br />So, Now taking Warder Applications<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 04:46:25
subject: <b>Phar Lap from New Zealand</b>
body:
Phar Laps skeleton is in a New Zealand muesem (the one metioned above), and his skin is in an aussie one... Aussies just love to claim all things from New Zealand as their own... But I digress...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Herid Fel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Aotearoa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 04:45:37
subject: <b>Who do Phar Lap be?!</b>
body:
Who the f*** is Phar Lap.  If Bela is a horse re-incarnated then surely its Shergar!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 08:38:05
subject: <b>Well it's obvious...</b>
body:
Good theory, except Bela gets depicted as a plodder, not a charger. Who knows, maybe both horses have big hearts...


created: 2002-10-21 07:36:03
subject: <b>How come Rand's house has gone off with Egwene?</b>
body:
I'm with Ruathain shes definately Shergar. <br /><br />Does anyone remember that she's Rands horse not Egwene's, who seems to have forgotten this and appropriated her.


created: 2002-12-15 04:55:16
subject: <b>see...americans do too know about phar lap...</b>
body:
Phar Lap was an australian race horse, famous for the come-from-behind-win.  His owner thought he would make him rich if brought over to the americas to race against the super-horses, despite running the opposite way around the track.  Unfortunately, he was poisoned during his tour here, obviously thought of as a threat by American thoroughbred owners (shame on them!)  It was a great movie, and i cried at the end of it.  It was so sad how he died, but he was a great horse...i'd have to say even better than bela.  BTW, Breyer collectibles actually has made models of phar lap, right down to the distinctive crescent moon marking on his forehead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-08 20:30:49
subject: <b>Too Improbable</b>
body:
RJ has gone to a lot of trouble to get Mat the Band and his military knowledge. He won;ty take them away that fast. Also, don't forget Mat would have to get marrried to Tuon before going to rescue Moiraine for this to woirk, or Tuon would have to be rescued later, to fulfill the &quot;marry the DotNM&quot; prophecy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 03:13:05
subject: <b>Or Maybe...</b>
body:
...Mat putting his eye on a balance scale, Mat giving up &quot;half the light of the world&quot;, and Mat with blood on his face mean that Mat is GOING TO LOSE AN EYE!<br /><br />Why do some people have such difficulty accepting the perfectly obvious?


created: 2001-07-09 11:43:37
subject: <b>Minor thing</b>
body:
The eye and the tree were used to gain WISDOM, not knowledge.  Mat cannot reverse this and lose memories, because wisdom and knowledge have not-so-subtle differences.<br /><br />(Yeah, my history of ancient cultures teacher made us all write a different essay on a choice of given topics, I chose &quot;The Vikings: A Constructive or Destructive force&quot;.  With all those Viking books, I couldn't help but look up the ancient Germanic mythology...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 16:15:05
subject: <b>Just a thought was all</b>
body:
I'll agree with the guy above me, that it is most likely that Mat will lose an eye. I was just attempting to look at another possibility. I think the main reason I sent in this theory was to have a place to mention my thoughts about the weighing of the two aes sedai having happened in book 9.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 21:16:18
subject: <b>To Hyam Kinch...</b>
body:
Maybe the obvious is so unbelievable because IT'S OBVIOUS! When have you ever know Robert Jordan to do ANYTHING obvious?


created: 2001-07-10 10:25:42
subject: <b>caesar, you are half-right.</b>
body:
Odin DID hang from Yggrasil, despite your denial.  The other thing you said refers to when Odin plucked his eye out and tossed it in the well of wisdom for wisdom, which was already mentioned.<br /><br />Yes, good old Wotan (Oden, Woden, Odwin, most commonly in English-speaking countries Odin) CAN have more than one attached myth.<br /><br />This post came off a little harsh, I think, so sorry, but I just had a bracketed paragraph in my blackboard comment that showed that I knew what I was talking about and you just denied it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 15:02:57
subject: <b>an eye......means. an. eye</b>
body:
There are a couple of Egwene/Perrin ( i forget which ) visions that can be all whirled together to accuraly perdict Mat's future<br /><br />Mat dicing with the dark one, yet not knowing he who hes dicing with<br /><br />mat puting his eye on a a scale<br /><br />mat covering his face with his hat, to hide blood<br /><br />mat reaching up into an illuminators show to grab something that will mean many men will die<br /><br /><br />Since Mat practically had Aludra dandled on his knee, its a pretty good bet she is going to let him in on how to use her fireworks knoledge to become near-invincible-in-battle ( as if he wasnt already ). That means arming the Band and/or the Seanchan with gun-powder weapons, meaning they can pick off soldiers at longer ranges. I saw this thing on the history channel once, where a bunch of pike-men covered guys with simple rifles while heavy cavarly rushed into them. the pikemen and the rifle-men slaughters the soldiers-on-horse. Taking into account how effectivly Mat can use pike-men ( think back to the Shaido battles leading up to the Band's forming ) i think hes going to use something like this to slaughter the hell out of Trollocs and Shaido. ( also think to the Legion of the Dragon, who use similar tactics, and who are completely Mat's creation. Bashere didnt do didly ). Somehow, Mat is going to lose an eye while figuring out gunpowder, possibly though some sort of accident. Then again, Mat could lose an eye to marry Tuon. Some sort of so'jihn thing maybe. Who knows. Its nothing symbolic. Hes losing an eye. Half the Light of the World. Half his vision. one. eye. The dicing with the dark one is him messing with gunpowder. He doesnt know how dangerous it really is ( he tosses a dis-assembled firecracker into the fire, thinking it wouldnt work now ), he is going to get burnt, which can once again mean losing an eye. Hiding his wound could possibly be because he lost it to marry Tuon, and hes not exactly proud of him finally falling in love with a woman. Theres also the possibility he doesnt want Tuon to see him with it, since he might not be quite as adorable with one eye.<br /><br /><br /><br />As for the severed hand mentioned earlier, i have a pretty good idea as to what the hand is about. Everybody remember the black a'dam the Seanchan have, where two women control a man? Somebody, maybe two sul'dam, maybe two Forsaken, maybe two Aes Sedai, is going to put that on Rand. And their not going to want to take it off. Thus, Perrin steps in and uses his axe to cut off Rand's hand. ( this can be related to Elayne since she is now bonded to Rand, and would feel the pain ). That is one of the ways Perrin is going save Rand, because despite now liking to use his axe, Perrin does what has to be done. Mat is going to be off with the Seanchan, and only Perrin will understand that he's the only person Rand can count on. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Master of the Editors <br />Perviest Of the Pervs<br />Slave to the World


created: 2001-07-16 20:03:50
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
Ummm... the male a'dam would go around his neck, not his hand. Also, here are my thoughts. Mat, Egwene, Thom, and maybe a few others, go in the Tower of Ghendi ('finnland) to save moiraine. throught some screw up, egwene is also taken by the 'finns. Mat agress to dice for both Moi and Ewg versus his eye ( the 'finns are mean like that). He loses the first toss and losses an eye, he then wins the second toss and must decide who to take, Moiraine or egwene. Hence him dicing with the dark one (IE him having the dark ones own luck), blood streaming from his eye, and him weighing two aes sedai on a scale. Also the loss of the light, he takes Moi, the White tower doesn't get taken by the rebel aes sedai due to lack of amerlyn, Alvarian (black ajah) offs elaida, and becomes an evil amerlyn, hence the WT is evil. he takes egwene, somehow Rand loses control of the Black Tower to darkfriend Taim, and Moiraine could have helped him some how. All prophecies fulfiled. As for my choice of who goes to save moiraine   <br />&quot;courage to strenghten, music to bind, iron to weaken, fire to blind&quot;  <br /><br />Mat is both the courage and the fire (him going back to a place where he was almost killed, and his firecracked weapon), Thom, a gleeman, for the music, and Egwene due to her ability to find and draw ore out of hte earth. I would have liked to say Perrin for Iron, but two taveren causes the 'Strain' in 'finnland and that is not good.


created: 2001-08-25 11:57:40
subject: <b>Know too much</b>
body:
ok,i want to get my thoughts in on this bloody hand thing.... I believe its in aCoS or LoC, shoulda wrote down the page number eh?  well anyway, Rand is talking to Min and Rand says &quot;I would rather cut my hand of then harm you Min.&quot; and to rand she turns weird and starts fiddling with his buttons or some sort and says in a quiet voice &quot;thats nice to know, sheephearder&quot;.  now to me this is pointing at that bloody hand thing WAY too close to be coincidence, since Rand IS Kinslayer reborn maybe he hurts Min in someway and because of the grief cuts his own hand off, and then goes to live like a beggar like he is supposed to do (told from a quote in rands head (and someother places) &quot;to live like that he would rather die, but...)  with elyane i didnt know she had anything to do with the bloody hand so either she finds it or actually rand hurts her in someway... dont know, but those are my thought, and to tell the truth i think, ,ost your guys' are all based on evidence from other therios so...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rand will lose a hand and be a beggar.<br />Logain will kill Taim, after Rand is &quot;killed&quot;.<br />Mat will save Egwene from the headsmen.<br />Cadsuane will teach the Asha'man the taint isn't cleansend.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 19:22:44
subject: <b>hmmmmm</b>
body:
your theory is sound, but i dont think the woman is Moiraine, don't you all remember who everyone else thinks is dead? MORGASE IS ALIVE!!!11


created: 2002-12-06 13:17:29
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
I think it's a good theory but honestly i dont think he'l let any of his major characters die. Tuon will survive mat might lose an eye, but oh well. He aint gonna let any good ppl that are of more than minor importance bite the dust.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 06:57:40
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
Wow.  Wowowowowowow.  Ow.  I highly doubt all of that, for a few simple reasons, I won't bore you.  Why would he -ever- take Olver on such a dangerous mission?  Are you crazy?  That would be like taking a kid into a crowded street, while a small war was going on!  With UZI's, man!  Come on, he wouldn't take Olver.  Another, Jordan is too god-damned good to sell us out like that.  I can almost gaurantee it is not Moraine who is the dead woman.  It's simply too easy!  RJ is not that simple-minded, it's someone else.  Hell, what if Tuon is considered the 'Empress Reborn' or something like that, in Seanchan?  Who knows!  But, as I was saying, it's almost positively not Moraine.  <br />  It probably has something to do with Aludra, in my opinion.  The dream of Egwene's where he caught lightning in his hand?  Anyone remember that?  Anyways, it probably has something to do with that, and the fact that Mat will make the first cannons/guns.


created: 2005-09-20 17:54:25
subject: <b>About Odin</b>
body:
I'm a bit pissed about the Odin things as i am an Odinist. There has been a lot of wrong information about Odin i just want to clear things up.<br /><br />Odin hung from the world tree (Yggdrasill) with a spear in his side for nine days and nine nights to gain understanding of the runes (futhark). You may note the similarities. Also note that the shaft of Odin's spear (grungnir) was made from the wood of the Yggdrasill.  <br /><br />In a different myth Odin sacrifices his left eye for a drnk from Mimir's well (the well of wisdom/memory) the alternate form of the myth is that Odin placed his left eye in the well so that he could see into anyone's memory. (this clearly relates to Odin/Mat gaining more memories, not loosing them)<br /><br />Giving up half his vision to save Moraine would consititute giving up half the light of the world to save the world. I think that is what will happen but it is good to see people coming up with alterenitives and you may suprise us all and be right.


created: 2001-07-08 18:23:23
subject: <b>Why it wasn't balefire - totally different reason!</b>
body:
His scream still hung in the air, or whatever. Even if the balefire had only burnt even a few seconds, it would not work : He was screaming when he died, but he would have not been there before he screamed. Therefore, his scream could not have &quot;hung in the air&quot; or whatever


created: 2001-07-08 20:33:56
subject: <b>Not a Gar</b>
body:
Asmodean is NOT Aran'gar or Osan'gar. Aran'gar=Halima=Balthamel; Osan'gar=Dashiva=Aginor=Scattered ashes. Moridin is Ishy, Cyndane is Lanfear, so Asmodean is dead. Besides, RJ said he was not coming back, ever. End of story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 20:35:57
subject: <b>Good theory, one problem.</b>
body:
There is no evidence that Asmodean is either Aran'gar or Osan'gar.  In fact, we have proof that those two are Bethemel and Aginor.  I, as a matter of fact, don't have that proof, but he's not one of those two.<br />Specualtion:  If Asmodean was brought back, remember he openly committed betrayal, where as Lanfear didn't.  Lanfear is Cyndane, who is on a mind trap.  Asmodean would definatley be on one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aes Sedia<br />Time doesn't stop... it's so sad.  <br />Mob Mistress to Lord Escobar, Dirty Mob Doctor<br />The bonded/bondee of The Dirty Escobar as well.<br /><br />Taters??  What's taters?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 23:07:13
subject: <b>Nature of Balefire</b>
body:
It's impossible for anyone to erase Asmo's teaching regardless of how strong the balefire is. If one of the Forsaken had somehow gotten a one of the Choedan Kal, they still wouldn't have been able to erase Asmo's teachings, no matter how far back they erased Asmo. Balefire gets rid of a person's deeds and presence, but not other people's memories of that person. For example, Rand is still very aware that he killed Rahvin and that, by killing him, he un-killed Avi, Asmo, and Mat. And others remember it too; at one point, Mat muses that he might've died in Caemlyn, because some of the Aiel told him that they thought they'd seen him dead (sorry I can't get the exact quote, I'm not at home). If balefire could erase memories as well as actions, once Rand had balefired Rahvin, no one would have remembered that Mat had, at one point during the day, been dead. Rand *remembers* everything that Asmo taught him. He's not going to forget just because Asmo's dead, by balefire or otherwise.


created: 2001-07-09 03:25:21
subject: <b>Power</b>
body:
I may be mistaken.<br /><br />the amount of power reqierd to burn the tred ewen a full minute woud be far more then Asmo cuod cannel whitt Lanfear's sheeld on him. so this amount of pover woud mean that Rand woud notis and investegate. <br /><br />Remember thet in Clamyn rand also uest Balefiere on Trolocks but in so controld amounts that it did not efekt the patern in eany sunificant way.


created: 2001-07-09 05:01:29
subject: <b>What I'm wondering is...</b>
body:
Where does it say that there was no body? Is that just an assumption, or am I stirring up dead ashes looking for a coal to start a fire with?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ninya Evoneigh<br />Aes Sedai Wanna-be <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> X)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 11:39:45
subject: <b>Why this is wrong, both theory and first comment</b>
body:
1) Balefire does not change memories, therefore training stays with Rand.<br /><br />2) Every time female balefire was used, the scream hung in the air after the death.  Every time male balefire is used, we get a photo-negative.  I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE THIS SCREAM THING AS ANTI-BALEFIRE EVIDENCE BECAUSE IT IS PRO-BALEFIRE EVIDENCE *gasps*.  Sorry, I've just posted this comment about balefire on three separate theories in the last little while now.<br /><br />3) Why balefire is used: little collateral damage.  Not messy, and you don't start fires.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 14:09:08
subject: <b>No balefire!</b>
body:
Ok, the scream might not be an anti-balefire proof. But then, why would any of the forsaken use balefire at Asmo? Its clearly stated that every channeler in the age of the legends was afraid of using Balefire. And with Lanfears shield on him, Asmodean is no threat to anyone. If I was an angry forsaken, I would use more safe methods (and maybe more painfull) to toast Asmo


created: 2001-07-10 07:55:33
subject: <b>They don't know that Asmodean has a shield on him</b>
body:
All Lanfear said to the other forsaken was that she observed Rand defeat Asmodean, and he went over rather then die.  SHe would never say she shielded Asmodean, because clearly that would tell them she is helping Rand and they would get really mad, which they didn't.  Also, we have seen forsaken use balefire.  Rahvin used it(against Rand in FoH of course), Moghedien used it(in book 7 trying to kill Nynaeve in Ebou Dar), and Moridin used it(in book 7 in shadar logoth).  And if one of the forsaken saw another forsaken that had betrayed the darkone and not known that he was shielded, they certainly would want to use the quickest means possible to kill him.  Also, the DO would be pleased that the traitor had been balefired.  In the beginning of book 6 the DO says to Demandred, &quot;WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH.&quot;  Clearly, he wants anyone who betrays him, as Asmodean did, to die the final death, ie never be reborn again, ie be balefired.  So there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 12:30:30
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
I personally DON'T think Balefire was used. In the beginning of LoC the DO is talking to Demandred and does say &quot;THOSE WHO BETRAY ME DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN FROM HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN OF HIS PRIDE, BUT EVEN I CANNOT BRING BACK SOMEONE KILLED BY BALEFIRE.&quot; or something to that effect. The actual quote implies that Rahvin is the one he cant bring back and he lets Asmodean stay dead for helping Rand. So I think another means was used such as the Fire and Air thing. But, that is just my opinion.<br /><br /><br />Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 13:11:25
subject: <b>Not Balefire... one more reason.</b>
body:
Another reason agaist balefire is that it takes a tremendous amount of OP to channel that, which wouldn't go unoticed by female channeler in the vicinity. <br /><br />Some may say that the WO or any other just might have been too far, but here is a quote I distinctly remember, though I don't know in which book exactly. It was when Moggy tried to balefire Nyn in Ebou Dar, which resulted in breaking her block.<br /><br />This may not be exact, but close enough to express my point.<br /><br />&quot;She was a spider, used to work in the dark, but now after what she has done, she became a shinning beacon for every female channeler to feel from MILES around. [...]&quot;<br /><br />and I doubt that Caemlyn Castle could be measured in miles...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Catch ya all later <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 13:08:44
subject: <b>Well well well</b>
body:
I read that section last night in fact.  This is what she said.<br /><br />&quot;Any female channeler in the city would know that a huge amount of saidar was drawn, if they didn't know what it was for.  But anyone could have seen that stream of white hot fire...&quot;<br /><br />Also note that Moghedien drew as much of the One Power as she could so she could toast Nynaeve completely.  And we know she drew a TON because she saw that she had sliced threw the rowers and the ship, and the water of the bay had had minutes to rush in so the boat promptly sank out of sight.  Now, Moiraine, who is very strong in the power, could burn a few seconds out.  For Moghedien to burn several minutes out she had to have used a LOT of power.  So if whomever possibly used balefire on Asmo used only enough to even burn out a split second from the pattern it wouldn't necessarily be felt.  Also note that weaves can be inverted AS they are spun, and indeed, in WH, we saw GRAENDAL do this against Verin...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 08:04:36
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
Asmo may not be alive and kicking as a 'gar, but he is alive and kicking<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 08:54:17
subject: <b>Asmo is not alive</b>
body:
RJ said that he wasn't coming back.  Several times he has said that.  He is NOT coming back!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 17:17:47
subject: <b>Response to Ninya Evoneigh</b>
body:
Quite a few post above me this person asked if it had ever been mentioned that there was no body found. The best answer I can give is kinda... y'see it's never been said straight out just implied. <br /><br />   At some point after the end of FOH (in either book 6 or 7 I believe) Rand is thinking about where Asmodean could have gone. That gives the impression that Rand is unaware that Asmo is dead. One would think that when the time came that Rand noticed Asmo gone he would have started a search of the palace grounds for him. If someone (like a palace servant or such) had found 'Jasin Nataels' corpse in the wine cellar Rand would have surely been told about it rather quickly.<br /><br />   As I said it's never been said straight out that Asmodeans killer didn't leave a body behind, but there is a bit of implication of that if you read between the lines.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-30 08:04:35
subject: <b>Asmodean dead or alive?</b>
body:
Well I have no clue. But I hope that he is alive and that RJ will change his mind and bring him back. We don`t really have  profe that he was killed by balfire and not that he wasn`t. But I think we in the end will know who killed him and how. I guess we just have to wait and see.


created: 2002-01-21 01:43:25
subject: <b>It wasn't Balefire</b>
body:
The wheel of time series as a whole shows that a channeller can &quot;feel&quot; balefire being made. When Morraine fries Bel'al, he says &quot;NO&quot; before he gets fried, and there are several instances where channelers talk about feeling the residue of bale fire... note NOT WEAVES, anotherwards men feel the residue just as women, its a natural phenomenon not saidar, saidin related, or even True Power related. Remember, Jordan is a physicist, so things like the nature of balefire are important to him: the channeler uses a certain method and his power of choice to cause balefire, but once its created, its its own entity... ie NO DIFFERENCE in male or female or true power balefire. So, With Rand overlooking the garden and Aviendha right there, we know that no Bale fire was used, one of them would have felt it. Don't you think Rand would've been a bit on edge after the huge Balefire he used? If ANY balefire had been made in the castle, he would have blown that part of the castle up without even going to investigate first. SO channelers who invert their weaves or True power users are still up for grabs, but balefire is out. The Dark Lord can't bring Asmo back simply because Rand cut him off from the dark lord... something he didn't do with Ishamael, if you'll notice the descriptions of Rands 2 attacks are slightly different in TDR and TSR... so he either cant be brought back or the DO refuses to bring him back.


created: 2002-03-07 17:08:15
subject: <b>he couldn't have been, obviously</b>
body:
Balefire is the deadliest weapon known to man.  If Asmodean had been killed using balefire, there would be LARGE amounts of destruction laying about the rest of that particular room/wing of the palace.  When Rand, for example, used balefire in tel'aran'rhiod he split pillars in two by pure accident, even while he was bloody well half-goat or whatever it was.  Also, balefire made of saidar would have alerted Aveindha (outside the room), and saidin would have alerted Rand (upstairs) because either way, it takes a tremendous amount of either saidar or saidin to even BEGIN to use balefire.  Moiraine could barely do it with all her strength, and she was one of the strongest around at the time.


created: 2002-07-06 12:31:47
subject: <b>asmo just killed. no balefire here</b>
body:
just a pointer.  when the dark one is speaking about how &quot;even i cannot step outside the pattern&quot; in reference to resurrecting sammy he mentions that he will not bring back asmo because he &quot;betrayed me in his weakness.&quot;  since the DO is implying that he is capable of bringing Asmo back then he has the ability to, and thus asmo wasnt balefired.  <br />bri


created: 2002-11-09 23:58:14
subject: <b>Comments on the Balefire paradox</b>
body:
Okay, I would like to correct a common misconception about the nature of balefire. If the pattern is like time, then it must accept the standard and accepted rules for time, i.e. that there is no past or future, only now. Past is a remembrance of what now was, and the future is the anticipation thereof. So, we must look at the pattern as if we were casually working our way up the cloth. When something is balefired, it is *burned* out of the pattern. Imagine setting one of the strands of that cloth we're looking at on fire. It will burn backwards a bit. Time itself will NOT jump backward and replay what has already happened, but simply move along accepting what happened and fill in the hole where it was. There is no paradox, because time just does not jump around that way. When the thread it burned out, the threads around it collapse in to fill the space where it was, thus accounting for the changes to the timeline. There is no paradox.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Doomaflatchi<br /><br />&quot;The Age of male channelers will come, and I intend to herald it on its way.&quot;<br />-Xao to Meadrin Sedai, Wheel of Time RPG</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 17:01:41
subject: <b>holes in the world</b>
body:
here is my case for Asmo NOT being Balefired....see there are 2 slight problems with the BF theory first would be that BF does take more then just a little bit of power to produce now that being said if the weave were inverted no one would be the wiser but there is another reason i dont think he was BFed and this is the evidence that is most significant if asmo was BFed dont you think somone would notice the holes that BF creates through stone wood and other such objects? there may be a argument against this however i think that somone would have noticed a hole in the wall or will it just be explained away that no one ever went to where asmo was killed ever again??? anyway was just a thought and i know some of you are thinking that they could have just broke off the weave but i dont remember for sure but i dont think bf works that way maybe somone can remind me for sure<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Korell Stormchaser<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-17 04:16:52
subject: <b>It almost has to have been BF</b>
body:
If there had been a body left, it's almost certain that Rand would have learned of it. BF is pretty much the only OP weapon that leaves nothing behind. We have seen Rand use small beams of BF, so there could easily have been no damages to anything other than Asmodean. The scream and all that are quite reminscent of other deaths by BF. If it was a female channeler, it could have easily have been mistaken for a woman channeler who was supposed to be there and the culprit would have known to have use a very limited quantity of the OP to help avoid notice. All and all it just about <i>had</i> to have been BF. It's not a guarantee, but the evidence points quite strongly in the direction. Also, on the nature of BF.... Rand used an incredibly large amount of BF to kill Rahvin and burned his thread about half-an-hour back. Destroying Asmodean far enough to destroy any of his teaching Rand (regardless of whether the memories stay, though obviously they do) would be nigh on impossible - if not impossible. It would certainly have required the Choedan Kal (sp?) or somesuch. A small amount of BF like what would have had to have been used to avoid notice would have not erased him by more than a few seconds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-11 19:18:31
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
Even the smallest amout of Balefire would have left some sort of mark. If it was Balefire, it could have been  a circle ewquiped with some ar'geal, possible sa'greal, they could have drew enough saidar to erase some of his teachings. As for Rand losing his teachings, Balefire erases the actions so if balefire was used they could have erased the action of teaching , there for it was never taught. And had it been Balefire some other previous posters were saying that it could be felt, if so wouldn't Asmodean have felt it before it was fired at him and smashed a part of the weave before it was formed?


created: 2001-07-08 23:20:13
subject: <b>wow!</b>
body:
I concur with ash, this has got to be one of the most extensive theories I've ever read, I tip my hat to the wotchick.<br /><br />damn, but did you just read the series and write down everything that was in favour of taim being Demandred, cause this is really impressive.<br /><br />That's all I wanted to say<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-08 23:21:06
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
you won my support....taim is demandred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Gladiator Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Cup <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Defender of the Front Line <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Champion of his Land <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Singer of the Songs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> True North Strong and Free <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Crusher of All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 01:00:33
subject: <b>swayed</b>
body:
I wasn't a gig fan of this theory when it was suggested before.  Your theory leaves little room for argument.  An impressive amount of work here!!


created: 2001-07-09 03:39:29
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
personally i always thought Demandred's &quot;proxies&quot; were the Seanchan. In book 6 they started attacking Amadicia, which is fairly close to Illian (only Altara in the way) so Sammael naturally would be concerned. By the time of the comments they had probably made their first landing<br /><br />Also i recommend you include chapter names with the quotes, there are so many editions of the books (in different languages too) that its unlikely people have the same page numbers...<br /><br />Good point about Demandred recognising the Great Hall and being there in T'A'R, hard to think of an excuse for that... unless the time in book 5 when Birgitte took Nyneave to see the Forsaken plotting, where they in Caemlyn then? i dunno.


created: 2001-07-09 06:50:23
subject: <b>one point..</b>
body:
Very good points, enough to turn me around and tend towards thinking that they are the same person.  But one point i disagree with (doesn't go against the theory of them being the same, but still i feel the need to correct comments i think are in error (emphasise think))  His comment 'generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded' is very different to fight against the men they commanded, which you suggest.  I think it more likely that he is a man that doesn't like to get involved in the hardcore fighting, prefers to direct it from a safe vantage, and that was what he was complaining about.<br />Anyway, just a bit of nitpicking.<br />All in all, a good, well researched theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 11:01:18
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
I have one major problem with one of your points; the rest are pretty good.  I quote from your theory:  &quot;When Demandred come [sic] through the trees he sees up ahead and to the right of him partialy hiden [sic] by trees a man with grey hair surrounded by 2 women. It only takes him a moment to identify him as Asha'man.&quot;<br /><br />Unfortunately, Demandred took quite a while to identify Flinn as Asha'man--in fact, he had to get hit with his weapon of the Power to realize it.  That's not very consistent with the Taim = Demandred view.<br /><br />I was all ready to say, &quot;Alright, they are definitely one in the same person,&quot; until that incident.  Now I agree with Bad Ash--this will never be resolved until we get something like the thing that resolved the &quot;Who is Osan'gar&quot; debates:  Demandred saying something about being Taim, Taim mentioning orders from Demandred, etc.  Nothing short of that will convince everyone.<br /><br />I hope from the bottom of my heart that Robert Jordan does indeed resolve this identity crisis once and for all before Demandred buys the farm--if he does not, we will all end up like our friend Lews Therin Telamon.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 11:50:23
subject: <b>beautiful</b>
body:
I never really beleived this theory before but it seems u'v converted me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 13:17:34
subject: <b>Awesome job!</b>
body:
Thanks for the great theory.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 14:00:31
subject: <b>Here's a thing.....</b>
body:
When Perrin smelled Taim in Rand's presence he did not smell any hatred whatsoever.  None.  Demandred hated LTT more than anyhting in the world, and transferred this to Rand.  But no hatred.  The nose knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 17:41:51
subject: <b>Good work</b>
body:
Even when I don't agree with a theory like this I have to commend the extensive amount of research that was involved.<br /><br />   The whole thing with Demandred having failed to instantly recognize Flinn (the first guy tested who passed with flying colors) is just too big a stumbling block for me to get around.<br /><br />   I agree that this will be one of those things that is not resolved until the answer is made plainly clear and obvious. You have given me some thoughts to chew on though. I applaud you for that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 20:57:43
subject: <b>Well, how important is regognition</b>
body:
We know that the good asha'men trained by rand were wearing warder cloaks right? (I heard that somewhere)<br /><br />Well Hoods could have been up, plus we don't know what the distance was between Flinn and Demmy, so what can I say, maybe he was too far away to regognize especially with the cloaks,<br /> <br />well whatever, I'm not saying I'm right, but someone's gotta balance the arguments <br /><br />I really don't care who taim turns out to be, I just never want to have to read another theory about it.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS Jordan said we had evidence to derive the identity of every forsaken still alive.  So if Demmy isn't Taim who else could he be?


created: 2001-07-09 21:48:52
subject: <b>A mistake</b>
body:
I have discovered a small error towards the end of your theory regarding the Asha'mans discusion of the traitors in WH SNOW as Dashiva is included in the group,<br />'&quot;It's the others I cannot understand,&quot; Sandomere put in. &quot;I was at Dumai's Wells. Isaw the Lord Dragon choose, after. Dashiva had his head in the clouds as always. But Flinn, Hopwil, Narishma? You never saw men more pleased. They were like lambs let loose in the barley shed.&quot;'<br />The inclusion of the word &quot;But&quot; relates to (and therefore includes)Dashiva with the other three.<br />However this brings up another problem (this time with the book) as earlier on one of the Asha'man states;<br />'&quot;Dedicated have deserted before,&quot; the Cairhienin muttered when Kajima was done, &quot;but never a full Asha'man. And now seven at once?&quot;'<br />But they mention Gedwyn, Torval, Rochaid, Kisman, Dashiva, Flinn, Hopwil and Narishma and you do the maths and you end up with eight, not seven. Either this Asha'man was very poor at Mathematics (which would be extremely tenious of Jordan), Jordan made a mistake (unlikely) or I've just proved my earlier point wrong and Dashiva is left off the list, leaving seven. If so then ignor everthing you've just read.


created: 2001-07-10 01:35:21
subject: <b>in response</b>
body:
To the perrin never smells taim angry around rand he does quite a bit.In the crown of swords perrin thinks that the smell of frustration nearly overwelms that of anger in the man. When rand is chosing his asha'man guard. <br /><br /><br />I am glad that so many of you have enjoyed this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 12:41:05
subject: <b>Cloaks and Distance...</b>
body:
The Asha'man were not wearing hoods.  Demandred saw his balding head and grey hair.  Also, RJ stated at a book signing (posted a short time ago?) that Demandred would have been able to recognize Flinn at that distance...


created: 2001-07-11 08:06:38
subject: <b>You mean Taim, not Demandred</b>
body:
RJ said Taim would have been able to recognize Fliin at that distance.  We already KNOW that Demandred did not.  Oh, and I am checking on that quote about Perrin smelling him later on tonight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 08:30:17
subject: <b>Here are the things about Perrin smelling him</b>
body:
Taim smelled of &quot;fury&quot; when he was arguing with the aes sedai and wise ones as to who should get control of the shileded and captured aes sedai, he smelled of &quot;frustration&quot; when he was trying to convince Rand to take an Ashaman instead of/in addition to one dedicated and four soldiers, and he smelled of irritation when Rand chose Dashiva.  But I said he never smelled of HATE, not anger, in my earlier post.  And the only time anger was mentioned was when he was arguing with who got the prisoners.  And Perrin smelled immense hatred from Rand when he looked at Taim, so we KNOW Perrin can smell hatred.  But Taim NEVER smelled of HATRED.  So that is STILL a big indication.  If you can find a place where Perrin DOES smell hatred or offer a reason why Taim would not smell of hatred if he were Demandred then the theory MIGHT make sense.  But there still is no explanation for this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 09:55:25
subject: <b>Taim=Ishi</b>
body:
I dont think there is a doubt that Taim is on of the male forsaken, but the logical choice would be that his real identity is Ishmael and not Demandred...


created: 2001-07-12 15:37:58
subject: <b>Very Good Theory</b>
body:
Very enjoyable theory and very well-reasoned arguments.  I don't agree with several points but some of them I don't have any rebuttals.  <br /><br />The first argument regarding Sammael's defense of Illian I think is moot.  Any general worth his weight would attempt to figure out what his opponent would/or should do in any given situation.  Taim never mentions Sammael's propensity for defense as opposed to offense.  In fact, the only character that references that trait is Rand.<br /><br />In reference to the repeated Lews rantings around Taim, it could be attributed to the fact that he is simply around Taim more than any other male channeler (and as you have pointed out Lews probably has figured out that Taim cannot be trusted and howls everytime he-meaning Taim- is around) as opposed to say Flinn or Hopwil.<br /><br />To me, the most glaring piece of evidence that Demandred is not Taim is the final scene in WH.  Demandred is genuinely shocked that that &quot;tottering old man&quot; (Flinn) was an Asha'man.  If he was Taim, he would have no difficulty in identifying one of the Asha'man, especially since Flinn was the first one he tested AND trusted to send on recruiting missions for the Black Tower.  Taim in fact knows that Flinn was one of Rand's Asha'man and would be EXPECTING to see him aiding in Rand's defense.<br /><br />Taim's &quot;so-called&quot; and &quot;renagade&quot; Aiel comments are odd for a person of this Age but that information is available from a Forsaken sponsor that either is controlling Taim or was responsible for turning him to the dark side, if you will.  It is said amongst the Forsaken that Demandred works through proxies and what better proxy  than an individual who shares his hatred of Rand/Lews Therin and would be a willing ally.<br /><br />It is also easy to understand why Taim resents being second to Rand.  Here is a guy who probably was the most powerful male channeler in this Age channeling for ten years and was embarking on a successful Dragon campaign when out of the blue, Rand appears and snuffs out all hope of being the Dragon Reborn.  He is now in a position of subordination to some backwoods hick who has only been channeling for a year or two.  It is only human nature to feel resentment and jealousy in that respect and quite possibly might explain why he would seek &quot;alternative methods&quot; as Demandred did himself so many years ago.<br /><br />To sum up a few points, just because Taim knows certain things doesn't necessarily translate to him BEING Demandred.  This information can be provided to him BY Demandred.<br /><br />I apologize for the length of this comment post, I got carried away...


created: 2001-07-13 00:02:57
subject: <b>Ouch</b>
body:
Well, if Jordan DID say that Demandred would have been able to recognize Flinn then a theory I've stuck to for years is totally blown.  However, I haven't seen that particular interview so I'm sticking to my guns.  My only defense for this in light of the WH info is that Taim doesn't seem to care enough about the Ashaman to remember names so why faces?  The Ashaman are just tools to him...not people.  Also, if we have enough info to identify all of the Forsaken, then this is the only choice for Demandred that I can see.<br /><br />Also, one argument I didn't notice was that Taim &amp; Demandred have the same attitudes concerning swords and also about generals fighting alongside their men.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Shel</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 09:56:05
subject: <b>Here is all the stuff from that particular series of interviews.</b>
body:
These are all from notes made by Sander, so if they are slightly confusing that is not my fault.  Here goes.<br /><br />-----------------------------------------------------<br /><br />&quot;Do Sarene and Corele have ageless faces? <br />He didn't seen to recall the names, so I said &quot;at the end of Winter's Heart, the Aes Sedai with Flinn who attack Demandred...&quot; <br />quote: <br /><br />Uh yeah, uh well, no no. Uh, some of them do, yes, some of them have ageless faces, but not all of them. <br />&quot;But do the two who were in the circle with Flinn have ageless faces?&quot; <br />Oh, let's see.. oh, the two who were in the circle with Min?? <br />&quot;Flinn&quot; <br />Flinn, ah... Just trying to remember which ones I had with which one... <br />&quot;Sarena and Corele&quot; <br />Sarene Nemdal does have an ageless face and ehh... I think Masuri .. no Masuri was not.... <br />I'm sorry, I actually forgot who I ... <br />[And then the silly man who had done the interview interrupted us and talked about the time and that it was getting late. So I thanked Jordan and circled around the line to go stand close to the table where he was signing, see if I could pick up any more interesting tidbits. Well, at least we now know for sure that one of the Aes Sedai had an ageless face, so that Demandred should have seen this if he was as close to them as those opposing Taimandred claim.] <br /><br />-------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Q: When Damen Flinn and Sarene and Corele attacked Demandred, how far away were they? In yards, meters, ...? A: Ah.. no, they were eh... [long silence while he's thinking] no, no, no.. Damen Flinn and Corele eh... no, no, that's meters.. just some meters. Err, they couldn't have come face-to-face. That's eh... Yeah, it's not a short, not a really... not like you and me. Q: ...he didn't see the ageless faces... A: ... [nothing really, he was done signing then, but no contradiction either] The general idea I now have is that it was something like 10, maybe 20 meters between them. Not the 100+ meters I'd kinda expected. <br /><br />---------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />'Would Taim recognize Flinn in a similar circumstance?', getting an evasive answer... Something about him knowing Flinn from the BT, but also something about the distance. But then I mentioned that the distance wasn't all that great, just a couple of meters, and he looked at me in a way that said 'you know all you need to know about this, I'm not going to make it any more obvious.' <br /><br />-------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />that is everything that was said about it at the series of signings in the Netherlands.  Read as much into it as you want.  I am still saying Taim ain't Demandred, but he IS Demandred's proxy.  Also note the lack of hatred from Perrin's smellings of Taim when in the company of Rand.  Demandred would certainly smell of hatred in Rand's presence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 17:10:55
subject: <b>&quot;Noodle&quot; Logic</b>
body:
#1 wotchick, just like Moridin is using circumstantial evidence to support her theories. And she is also making mountains out of mole hills. Her theory is long but that means nothing because it is supported by &quot;Noodle&quot; and/or &quot;Spaghetti&quot; logic.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Lover&quot; of Quotation Marks<br />Enemy of &quot;Spaghetti&quot; Logic<br />Thief of the Words &quot;Ehn,&quot; &quot;Erm,&quot; and &quot;Giaz.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JACKAROO<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 10:52:59
subject: <b>Compulsion</b>
body:
As I understand it, Taim's use of Compultion does not prove anything: Taim fought with Bashere about the time of the beginning of tEotW, no? Demandred is tucked nice and safe into the Bore at that time, in fact, everybody but Ishy is. So whether Taim we see in LoC is Demandred or not, the compulsion was used by REAL Taim, whoever he is.


created: 2001-07-19 00:47:00
subject: <b>Re: DEMMMMMAZRIM TAIM</b>
body:
One thing that's always bugged me. It's stated by Sammael in Crown of Swords (Patterns within Patterns) that &quot;I didn't arrange his kidnapping. Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended.&quot; <br /><br />This statement really bugs me. It essentially means Sammael knows where Demandred and Semirhage are. Now, everyone says Semirhage is Anath (which I do believe) but how does this mean she was involved? I know Sammael said possibly, and not definitely, but what hand would she have in it? Unless I'm confusing matters...weren't those three working together? In any case, as far as Demandred goes, this can be taken 3 ways.<br /><br />1) Maybe Demandred helped arrange the kidnapping, despite how it ended, with him helping to rescue Rand.<br /><br />2) Maybe Demandred helped arrange the kidnapping, despite how it ended, since his cronies were defeated by Rand's followers (therefore implying that Demandred is in with someone else that was involved, either the Tower Aes Sedai, which makes no sense, or the Shaido Aiel, which doesn't make too much sense considering Sammael appears to be the one ordering them at this time.)<br /><br />3) Maybe Demandred helped arrange the kidnapping, despite how it ended, since Rand's followers managed to defeat the plans of 2 or 3 Forsaken. (This implies that Demandred was mentioned only because he was working with Semirhage and Mesaana, and Sammael is stating that maybe they were involved, even though Rand defeated the plan).<br /><br />Therefore, this sentence really states nothing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-27 07:31:09
subject: <b>Explanation for events on dumain walls</b>
body:
There is a explanation to how Taim found rand so easily.<br />And since it is from Robert Jordan himself we can't question it.<br /><br />This is an extract taken from Karl-Johan Nor&#233;ns summary.<br /><br />&quot;&quot;<br />Summary of various talks with Robert Jordan that I attended at the East of the Sun fantasy convention, Stockholm, Sweden the 16-18 of June 1995.<br />&quot;&quot;<br /><br />&quot;He said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: &quot;Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B.&quot; [ exact quote! ]. When finding out of the disappearal of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man. &quot;<br /><br />The actual praise should go to Karl-Johan Nor&#233;n for recording and publishing that text. <br /><br />Unfortunatley his homepage has been &quot;gone?&quot; for a couple of years now.


created: 2001-07-31 08:53:07
subject: <b>ok problems with ur theory</b>
body:
1 because he is a man who can channel with battle experience<br /><br />2 Asha`men is not plural of Asha`man<br /><br />3 Easy to explain away. Osan`gar new about the plan <br /><br />4 Taim says he met and taught another man who could channel ,everyone who can channel in the books Elayne etc. seem to discover stuff over the course of a year or 2, taim has been at it for ages<br /><br />5 No reason why Taim might fell the same way about a &quot;boy&quot; dragon ??<br /><br />6 Dashiva/Osan`gar has been teaching Taim <br /><br />7 Lews Therin has been saying that around most asha`man ,are they all forsaken in disguise ??<br /><br />8 he IS Tav`ern<br /><br />9 they both don`t smile much !!! WOW !!<br /><br />10 SO ??????<br /><br />11 Ravin lived there for ages , most forsaken seem to pop around the capital citys<br /><br />12 hence the term PROPHESY (oops<br /><br />13 YES EXACTLY !!! Demandred always uses lackeys never goes in to situations like Taims , uses others instead !!!<br /><br />14 I can`t be bothered typing more , you are totally wrong stop deluding ur selves !!!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-04 21:22:27
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
LOL I think this is hilarious.  Hey guys listen to what R.J. has to say. <br /><br /><br />RJ:  &quot;It seemed to me that there was no need to go into any more detail. I thought that if I went into any more detail, I was being blatandly obvious, and you know... what do I need to do? Caper around with a sign saying 'Here! Here! There he is, see?' I mean.., I assumed that the people who read my books are intelligent to a certain degree, have a reasonable level of intelligence, and are able to deduce things that you know... I mean, I don't have to tell them water is wet. They know that. I don't have to tell them that if they fall of the roof, it's gonna hurt when they hit, you know, they know that. So I... no, I... At this point, I must tell you: alhough I will continue to put clues into the books. Again. A bit here and there. If I see a spot where I can put a clue, for those who are slow of wits to catch up ... I will not tell you. For the simple reason I am enjoying watching you all try far too much to deprive myself of the pleasure of that.&quot;   <br /><br /><br />I think this has direct application to the whole &quot;so called&quot; taimandred debate.  The debate that really isn't a debate because, because after months of discussion no one can seem to come up with anything better than Demandred is Wieramon.  lol  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Obviously guys, if Jordan wanted us to know that Demandred recognized Flinn in WH, he would have put it in all capital letters.  We all know how Jordan love to make things glaringly obvious and not leave any thinking involved in his books. lol<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-18 13:31:27
subject: <b>Applause for WoTChick</b>
body:
In addition: Demandred's quote &quot;That tottering old man was an Ashaman!&quot; can be interpreted in two ways. 1) &quot;How can a man that old and decrepit be an Ashaman?  2)&quot;That man in that warder cloak is actually one of the Ashaman in disguise, but the only old guy that I've trained should have been killed because I put his name on the traitors tree!&quot;  Hopefully you get my point.  Taimandred has no reason to believe that Rand will disbelieve his word that Flinn is a traitor.  When Taim learns from his scouts in the BT that Flinn, Narishma, and Hopwil are gone, the last thing he would think is that they were with Rand, because Rand has supported him in his killing of earlier traitors.  He obviously considers Flinn a dead man or at the very least a man hunted by Rand, surely not a man to be helping Rand cleanse saidin.


created: 2001-11-21 09:37:27
subject: <b>One more thing</b>
body:
Taim was almost as strong as Rand with the one power. Rand is the strongest one ever, except maybe ishy. Who could possibly be that strong except someone born in the age of legends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of Manshima <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Killer of Chat  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;kn&#228;b&#246;j inf&#246;r hans n&#229;d draken. Eller era kn&#228;n kommer att b&#246;jas &#229;t er.&quot; - Mazrim Taim in the Swedish version of LoC</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 22:24:45
subject: <b>Finally</b>
body:
I am glad somebody actually has a brain in their heads. You knew exactly what i was talking about. After reading all the anti debates which are chalk full of &quot;idiots logic&quot; i am completly convinced that there are Morons abound. I used to think that MOST of the people here were smart enough to fingure out the obvious but evidently not. I guess when they rule out the obivious they are left fighting over Demandred is Valda or Weiramon. *Runs off laughing her butt off*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 20:40:37
subject: <b>RJordan</b>
body:
like it said in an earlier post, RJ was putting in clues to see if people could figure it out so he could get a kick out of their ideas.  Im not sure who Demandred is( this was an extremely well written theory) but RJ is probably either,while laughing his head off, suprise us all with someone we did not expect at all, or it will be really obvious and reveal him as taim.<br />  But, annoying as it is, we'll all have to just wait and see.<br /><br />    Wotfreak85


created: 2002-11-30 04:23:27
subject: <b>Mazrim is Dem, leave it at that</b>
body:
I've been a supporter of the Taimandred theory for a long time and I can't say that I've ever really turned from it.<br /><br />Just some points I want to make:<br />Mazrim Taim supposedley started out as a soldier who discovered he could channel. If he was a soldier, he would be perfectly capable with a sword. Demandred however, was always a general and seemed to dislike fighting on the front lines. Sammael was the one who preferred to patricipate in battles directly, that's who he got his scar.<br />So, logically, Dem, who can channel as well, would never really know how to effectively use a sword. That means Taim has either completely forgotten (unlikely) or is in fact Demandred. Bashere was chasing Dem, was he not? This adds credence to the Taim killing Asmo thing.<br /><br />That's my money's worth<br /><br /><br /><br />Also, Taim, strangely enough, announced his arrival about a day or two AFTER Asmodean's death. Surely he was in Caemlyn at around that time, because he was announced AFTER Bashere arrived.


created: 2004-07-18 19:04:09
subject: <b>THANK YOU!!</b>
body:
At last someone has been bothered to right all the evidence down as show it to be as obvious as it is...<br /><br />The main arguements against Taimandred has been:<br /><br />a)RJ saying &quot;Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim&quot;,  all this means to me is that he actually IS Taim, and is therefore not posing as  anyone.<br /><br />b)People claiming that RJ would not make it so obvious a connection,  and my  reply to  that is 'why not?', he has with all the other Forsaken, it was immediately obvious about Sammael in Illian, Rahvin in Caemlyn,  and Be'lial in Tear, it's just with Demandred, Rand realising  it is just taking a bit longer.<br /><br />Anyway, thank you for finally gathering this stuff, it  strengthens what I was already pretty certain of, and now there is no doubt- DEMANDRED IS MAZRIM TAIM<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 11:35:58
subject: <b>The OP</b>
body:
I think that if the OP stemmed from the Creator then it would be easy to cut off some guy who decides to go the DO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 18:42:59
subject: <b>Not Agreeing, but wanna point out</b>
body:
Thought I don't agree with the Theory, I'd like to reply to the first comment to this Theory.<br /><br />&quot;Anything that is Good can be used for evil, but anything that is Evil cannot be used for Good.&quot; <br /><br />Though nothing in the books proves the One Power stems from the Creator, if it did, then naturally the Power would be meant for the Purpose of Good. An Obvious.<br /><br />But if you really think about what the nature of Good is then it makes sense that the One Power meant to be used for Good can be used by Evil, and in an evil way.<br /><br />Just like the nature of the Dark One and the Creator. The Dark One is evil that is why he is trying to shape the world to his image. It is his very nature that makes him try. It is the very nature of the Creator not to interfere because in a sense that would be Evil. Instead he leaves it to the world. It is the World's decision, and the pattern's. Since that is the Way of Good, his help comes in the form of a human, the Dragon. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not easy.&quot; - Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 19:40:07
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Realizing WoTland is not our lovely blue-green ball, I believe the theory has a lot of merit.  I particularly like the basic point of the lack of missionaries / places of whorship and such.  I think that is a great little tid-bit in itself.  Finally, Mr. J (as we all know) draws heavily from world religions in our existence (what else would he draw from and get readers interest so well?) so the analogy to Christian / Judaism is not only pertinent, but makes for extremely stimulating conversation.  Pray, theorize on...<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-07-10 00:39:13
subject: <b>About the praying thing...</b>
body:
I dissagree with your comment about the whole praying issue. I beleve that when someone says something &quot;Like thank the light,&quot; or &quot;The light shine on you,&quot; they are saying thank god or god watchover you. They just don't refer to the creator. Although......I could be crazy. HEHEHE


created: 2001-07-10 19:30:22
subject: <b>Responding to my own theory</b>
body:
I understand that religion in R-land and religion on our earth are very different. That is the core reason why they don't need evangelists in R-land.  Thats what I was trying to point out.  Our perception of a missionary's duty has no correlation whatsoever with the way religion (and life in general) is played out in R-land.  That's what makes this topic interesting to me.  It takes a little bit of mind-stretching to imagine something that has no relevance to your own experience. I'm just trying to understand where the people in R-land are coming from spiritually.  My conclusion was that it is a very shallow spiritualilty on most earthling's terms, but R-land perhaps has never known anything different.  And in response to the comment that the effects of good and evil are obvious only in R-land (and hidden on earth), I say bull****!  You cannot be telling me that there is no evidence of a dark side on earth!!  Unless you do not believe in right and wrong, good and bad...  Wherever there is a loving family, a generous person, or even a friendly smile, there is GOOD being evidenced on earth. Wherever there is murder, rape, or hatred, there is EVIL!  It is just as alive and kicking here on earth as it is in good ol' fictional Randland (excuse that hideous name).<br /><br />and forgive me for assuming that the OP comes from the Creator, I was reaching a little <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 02:08:49
subject: <b>The Creator</b>
body:
In the beginning there was people animals etc in Randland.<br /><br />The DO was not there with everyone. Until one silly person decided to Bore a hole into where the Dad-o-Fibs lived.<br />Then the DO was able to touch the world &amp; communicate with people in it, creating missionaries called Friends of the Dark.<br /><br />Nobody broke through to where the creator lives however. Since no one has physically reached him, only his creations are here. So, if someone bores a hole in the sky, being where the antithesis of the DO would reside) the creator shall not take a direct hand in matters. And then THe BIG C &amp; the DO can have it out, probably destroying the world.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Thinker of stuff <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of Aquatic Mammals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-12 11:53:03
subject: <b>There is prayer</b>
body:
In book 7 Jaichim Carridin thinks about praying to the Creator if he hadn't abandoned Him long ago.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 08:47:26
subject: <b>The Creator</b>
body:
Near the end of the first book the Creator spoke to Rand. I don't rememmber the exact quote but I know he said something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" />  Existence is Futile!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Light is Bright, there for I look into it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Asmodean:  You!  No! <br />Rhuarc:  Oh.  Sorry.  Sometimes I forget to wear pants. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 15:15:41
subject: <b>spirituality vs. religion in WoT-land</b>
body:
Someone seemed confused about how anyone could say 'there is no evidence of good and evil directly touching the world in our (rl) world.' True, but there is a total difference of degree of involvement.<br /><br />In our world, for the most part, an objective observer will see no direct evidence of the Good or Evil forces working directly to affect the world. Jeffrey Dahmer saying the devil made him do it does not count. There is no Shayol Guhl, no Bore, no Pit of Doom, no Land of Mordor (oops, wrong mythos)...all of our evidences are subjective here. That is a reason we have hundreds of spiritual belief sets in our world.<br /><br />In Randland (yes, I hate that term as much as the next person, except maybe Rand in Book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />, there is direct, irrefutable evidence of Good and Evil. People are busy enough getting out of the way of Darkfriend/Whitecloak/Red Ajah/Asha'man bands that they don't have time to write up an Old Tongue High Mass. I would say that the Whitecloak/Crusader analogy is the strongest for a religious order that bases their actions on a belief system not totally grounded in real observable fact.<br /><br />LTT


created: 2001-08-07 09:48:11
subject: <b>Invisibility</b>
body:
I agreee with LTT.  If you had people bursting into flames or creating wind storms or the like I'm sure that is enough proof for you to believe in a higher power.  the only reason why so many in our world need the bible and prayer is to fuel their own belief and to strengthen it against doubt.  People of this world need faith, because there is nothing that can prove the unseen.  Like LTT said you have the bore, trollocs, and One Power do you need any more proof that there are forces greater than you at work.  Then again no one sees the Creator, but the people in RJ world automatically assume there is a Creator, because there is DEFENTILY a Dark One.  Though there may very well be NO Creator at all, and the only thing fighting against the DO is themselves and their own powers to survive....what's wrong with that idea??  Why do you always need a higher force backing you up, why can't human beings be strong enough to stand on their own two feet...even if half the time they don't realize it was them ALL ALONG.  Just a thought.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />,<br />AC<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I could die for you, but I couldn't and wouldn't live for you&quot;--Ayn Rand 'The Fountainhead'<br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Philosopher of the Ages <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of Time Wasting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> One Who Does Nothing At Work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 18:33:53
subject: <b>Being a darkfriend can be alot of work</b>
body:
The DO trys to takes an active role in the events of Earth (it has been refered to as Earth within RJ's text, so I will call it Earth) and The Creator just sits back and watches, hoping for the best. Their followers/worshipers behave in the same manner. Darkfriends plot and scheme trying to rise above all those around them. This characteristic is easy to recognize in both the Forsakens' jockeying to become Naeblis(sp?) and the dynamics of a Darkfriend coven. On the other hand, those who believe in and &quot;worship&quot; The Creator faith takes a less active role. Live a good life, keep your word, be honest, etc..., what more can a inactive diety ask.<br /><br />Lord Ravenscraft


created: 2002-03-17 20:20:57
subject: <b>WRONG WRONG WRONG</b>
body:
Your wrong many many people have prayed/thought about prating in R-Land. Also it dont matter if there arent any prophets becaause do we have prophets in this world?Not real ones and we did but that was way back in the day. We do!!! have a bible but what if there's was destroyed in the Trolloc Wars or the War of 100 years. its been over 3000 years their bible could have been lost/destroyed whatever in all that time. Now what if they do have prophets but we just dont look at them right. Eladia(the stupid b*tch) has the foretelling and she can read the future of the Wheel but only when it decides to. Well that is the same way it works with prophets and the Creator made the wheel so it is like a prophet. Now what has God been doing here in our world lately, nothing that ive seen unless America is evil and Bin Laden is his messenger!! I wouldnt even think of beleiveing that though so what has he been doing? Well He has been takin care of other planets in far away galaxies that he created so that they dont destroy themselves. Why not help us?? Well because are situation isnt as bad. Well this is gettin long so think about it.


created: 2002-08-14 12:48:14
subject: <b>Actually, people pray to the Creator all the time</b>
body:
It's just not obvious because it isn't such a cut-and-dry thing like how we do.<br /><br />They'll &quot;offer up a prayer to the Creator for someone's soul&quot; or something like that, but they don't kneel down and cross themselves, etc. like we do.<br /><br />It'd be funny if Rand said to someone, &quot;Yeah hold on, I just need to go over there and pray for all the people I've killed.&quot; Or maybe not that funny...oh well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 00:44:07
subject: <b>everyone believes</b>
body:
In the world of WoT everyone believes and knows for a fact that the Creator and the DO exist. Therefore there is no reason to activly spread the word of the creator. Also, I see examples of prayer in every book. Maybe no one gets down on their knees, but how many times have you heard someone whisper a silent prayer. More times than I can count.


created: 2003-01-29 17:17:48
subject: <b>Randland is not all that different from our world</b>
body:
I haven't commented before, but there is an unexamined assumption that I think needs to be discussed.  That assumption is that in &quot;Randland&quot; there is no need for our form of religion because the Creator and Dark One are so much more visible than in our world.  Religion in our world (so this assumption assumes) is used to prop up belief in the absence of tangible signs pointing to God or Satan.<br /><br />The difficulty is that in our world, there are many tangible signs, but we skeptical modern Westerners reject the validity of such signs.  For example, in the Catholic tradition, there are multiplicities of tangible physical manifestations -- think of the stigmata of St. Francis of Assisi, or the incorrupt body of St. Theresa of Lisieux.  Think of the miracles reported in the New Testament -- walking on water or raising the dead to life.   Think of the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin in Fatima or Lourdes or the miraculous picture of the Blessed Virgin that began the Mexican cult of Our Lady of Guadalupe -- the picture one can see in Mexico City to this day.  These are all just as tangible (to those who believe) as any manifestation of the Dark One in Randland.<br /><br />If I lived in a remote village in Randland, would I believe in the One Power or the Dark One?  Villagers (even those we have learned to love) dismissed Trollocs as &quot;stories&quot; until the Trollocs attacked them.  <br /><br />Mr. Jordan has chosen not to have an elaborate religion in his world, but to say that this is because &quot;it isn't needed&quot; avoids the issue of tangible signs of God or Satan that occur in our world.  It is his choice as an author, but I don't think it flows from the inherent nature of the world he is creating.  To say that is does is myopic on our part &#8211; because we have to ignore that we have chosen to discount what others see as tangible signs of God in our own world.<br />


created: 2003-04-16 19:37:22
subject: <b>PROOF THAT THIS THEORY IS WRONG</b>
body:
It clearly states in the biginning of the first book that people pray to the creator.  Here is the Quote:<br /><br />     And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.<br /><br />(from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,<br />The Cycle of the Dragon.<br />Author unknown, the Fourth Age)<br /><br />There you go.  It says right there, &quot;and men cried out to the Creator....<br />Case Closed, lets move on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Sancheward <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-07 05:10:41
subject: <b>spirituality vs religion</b>
body:
There is no need for missionaries in the 3rd Age since there is obviously no religious diversity.  EVERYBODY knows the whole Creator/DO deal.  There are varying superstitions that might border on dogma, but not anything enough to need a separate religion.  This is a different concept than people not getting involved with a God who does nothing-that is the essence of faith: no proof.  Notice that there are definitely evangelists of all sorts: Whitecloaks, Masema, etc.  Also, I might suspect that during the Collapse in the AoL, there were missionaries, converting people to the dark.  (The DO does *not* have enough power in 3rd Age for any missionaries--his followers would not survive exposure, not for long, at least not on a large scale basis.)<br /><br />I propose a different question: why are there no churches or temples?  Spirituality is very different from religion.  I find it extremely odd that no where at all in the 3rd Age is there a single house of worship, a place of guidance, a place dedicated to enlightenment on a level above intellectualism.  Why?


created: 2001-07-09 15:20:54
subject: <b>You even mentioned a flaw in your theory then forgot it</b>
body:
The Dark One CAN restore Sanity.  EotW prologue, Ishamael says something like &quot;the Dark One's healing is a lot worse than your own&quot;, and (evidently) used the true power to &quot;heal&quot; Lews Therin Telamon's insanity.  The true power is the Dark One's power, so the Dark One can restore Sanity.  Yes, Lews lost his sanity again, you would too if you were locked in a kid's brain.  Besides, Moridin has constant access to the restorative properties of the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 16:42:43
subject: <b>shaidar haren</b>
body:
Well, I'm willing to believe in either of the possibilities with this theory, I really don't care who moridin turns out to be, because I'm pretty sure it's ishmaul, BUT who the hell is shaidar haren?<br /><br />Is he moridin in disguise or a person unto himself?<br /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-09 17:55:26
subject: <b>isn't shaidar haren the super myrddraal?</b>
body:
i don't have book nine right now, so i can't look it up. BUT where the hell is he mentioned?<br /><br />ciau


created: 2001-07-09 19:23:04
subject: <b>A few points</b>
body:
Moridin and other Forsaken have said/thought that Moridin had been reborn. To me this clearly implies that Moridin is Ishamael.<br /><br />Also, didn't Rand say in the Dragon Reborn(I think) that he had never served the Shadow and he knew that for sure. <br /><br />Another thing(not really relating to theory), people have said that all the Forsaken can use the True Power, but I remember somewhere that now only Moridin(and Shaidar Haran possibly) can use the True Power.<br /><br />And another thing kinda opposite of what I have said, if the Dragon has turned in the past maybe Ishamael was a reincarnation of that turned person and the next Dragon was a new soul. I personally don't believe this but it's just a thought I had.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 11:45:08
subject: <b>it's not an alternate personality, ishy is feeling better that's all</b>
body:
I think that Moridin is calmer and acting less like the &quot;insanely evil philosopher whose carefully laid plans were ruined by a bunch of teenaged farmers&quot; that he once was because things are looking better for him.  He went crazy in books 2 + 3 because Rand cut his tie to the dark one at the end of 1.  The taint - which never touched him for 3000 years - took him pretty fast after he lost that fight with young Rand.  Well now that he's back, and with the never-tainted true power in his use he is more powerful than ever. He is Nae'blis, he's got Lanfear in check and several of his other rivals are dead and gone.  He knows the last battle is coming and that Rand is losing his grip; surely he thinks that he can influence the insane Dragon to bend to his will at the end, and that the Dark One's (his) victory is only a matter of time.  I'm sure that when Rand somehow kicks his ass again, Ishy will revert back to the screaming madman that we all knew and loved from the first three books...<br /><br />says me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> the big idiot


created: 2001-08-02 15:24:49
subject: <b>I think it more likely that</b>
body:
Ishy's insanity was some kind of chemical imbalance, possibly caused by using too much TP.  So once his body died he is now sane just as his eyes no longer burn.  Of course Moridin is quickly gaining saa in his eyes so he may be a little insane by the time TG rolls around.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 13:55:09
subject: <b>Moridin is Ishmael and he is NUTS</b>
body:
Moridin is completely off his rocker!  In the famed scene where he is playing Stones against himself and he reflects on Rand possibly being the Fisher, Moridin flies into a rage and nearly crushes the Fisher piece.  He then starts laughing so hard he cries.  This is a SANE person??<br />Also at the end of PoD he is watching Aviendha unravel the Gateway and his servant comes in and tells him they have the Bowl of Winds.  Moridin flies into a rage watching the spot where they girls just escaped him and he melts the bars on the windows with the TP and just happens to toast his servant as well.  This is suspiciously like the actions of a raving LUNATIC.<br />Moridin is Ishmael... the other Forsaken reflect upon how his sanity has always been questionable.  Osan'gar is scared to death of him.  They know who he once was and also know better than to use his OLD name.  The DO gave him a new, strong body but he is still the lunatic he always was.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dragon7<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Seventh Prince of the Wyrmkin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 15:30:43
subject: <b>Demandred Said</b>
body:
that to acquire the number of saa he had, moridin must have been using the true power exclusively since getting ressurected.  maybe he can't re-connect with the dark one from when rand cut him off, an thats why he only uses the true power.  also, the &quot;good guy&quot; has ALWAYS been known as the dragon.  we know this because when the DO (who by the way, is a much less powerful force than many think) talks about rand he calls him &quot;my age-old enemy.  the one called Dragon&quot;  just thought i mention it.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 20:49:21
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
seems fine to me, different things could happen, but the results are going to be the same I think.<br /><br />But I doubt that Elaida will be stilled, stilling can be healed now, so whats the point?<br /><br />I'd just kill her, but Egwene won't have the stomache for it, and she'll let her continue as aes sedai, but then Elaida will betray her later after the aes sedai have captured Rand somehow and asked for his gentling, and egwene will be stripped of stole and staff when she tells them she won't do it, and will be about to be turned to the dark by the circle when she'll wake and kill em all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and then go save rand kill Elaida and finally end the whole fiasco.<br /><br />So I predict that what happened in her accepted test was a glance at the future.<br /><br />Some of the things in that dream have already been fulfilled, take the fact that Egwene hasn't taken the three oaths.  That was why she wasn't afraid to go after Rand and kill all the Aes sedai, she wasn't restrained by her oaths.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-10 01:55:47
subject: <b>I think you need to think abou tthis a little more.</b>
body:
Ummmmm.... somehow i think yer a little misguided.  Egwene would probably still her.  Stilling can be healed but ONLY by Nynaeve or Flinn.  The AS who studied it from Nyn couldn't pick it up at all.<br />  So the only people who could Heal Elaida aren't exactly likely to. (Flinn being an Asha'man and all, isn't likely to Heal a Red. And Nyn? No way.) So that pulls apart yer theory nicely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 03:55:13
subject: <b>not quite pulled apart</b>
body:
Pulling apart a tiny thread on whether Elaida will be stilled or killed doesn't debunk the theory.  There are some great possibilities here, but they're only possibilities, they're as likely (or more)than anything I would predict.<br />I wonder if Rand would dare hand over Callandor to Narishma to fight Taim? If Taim got a hold of that somehow (unlikely as it is), things would sure get nasty.  Rand trusts Narishma but its dangerous.


created: 2001-07-10 07:46:14
subject: <b>Hmmmmm</b>
body:
As we all know Taim is Demandred and I agree that Logain will get his glory killing / capturing him. The trigger for this is will be Logain's discovery that Taim is a Forsaken. Narishma WILL have Callandor but Logain's bonded Aes Sedai must have significance. Will he have 13? Demandred may be an interesting character but the final battle is building up to be Rand v Dark One/Moridin. I don't think Demandred will live to see that day given what happened to Sammael (killed in an offhand way after all that character development).


created: 2001-07-10 09:42:17
subject: <b>Ohh.. how wrong you are Jimmy...</b>
body:
I take it that everyone has read Winters Heart and if you have you would know that Taim couldn&#180;t be Damedrad and then <br />you speak of a link betwen the full 13 sisters and Logain and if you had paid attention during the series you would know that the Forsaken has said that it is only custom not necessary to have the full 13. <br /><br />If you had 6 sisters with the strength of Nyneave or stronger you could just as easy keep one shielded. <br /><br />Now the one thing that is truelly usefull with a link of 13 sisters is, as you all know, that with 1 man in that link and if he is in control you can have another 13 sisters in the link and so on and so forth.<br /><br />As to he original posters theory, the battle at Tar valon will probebly be in that manner since they do not want to lay siege to the town.<br /><br />/Marcus


created: 2001-07-10 10:17:18
subject: <b>Elaida the traitor? No!</b>
body:
We know she's not a black, and look how she had her coup with Siuan.  I can't prove this, but I'm pretty sure Elaida said and thought (equally reliable) that Siuan WAS actually doing crimes deserving of the punishment.  Elaida is misguided and power-hungry, but she's not evil and she's not a traitor.<br /><br />Also, the other yellows were taking their sweet time learning sever-healing, but they CAN be taught.  I think their biggest problem is nobody to practice on and less raw power than Nynaeve.  Besides, Nynaeve won't keep sever-healing a secret, neither will Flinn - both are those ideal doctor types, who only want to help people.<br /><br />Jimmy the Hand...You think you have the beating heart of the Taim = Taim theory held in front of said theory's eyes?  I don't think so.  There is no true proof for Taimandred, a lot of the &quot;evidence&quot; is stuff that has been debunked a million times and people won't pay the attention to notice the debunking.  Also, WH, as is already mentioned, offers plenty of anti-Taimandred proof.  Especially the dual orders of Taim and Demandred.  Honestly, what darkfriend would question a dreadlord OR a Forsaken's decision reversal?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 10:18:49
subject: <b>Narishma will not be captured</b>
body:
Unfortunately, the &quot;Traitors' list&quot; is for names of people whose heads are supposed to hang on the Traitors' Tree.  Thus, if Narishma were to come to the Black Tower, they would not capture him, they would kill him.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 12:58:26
subject: <b>Reds</b>
body:
I don't think that there will be a Red Ajah after <br />the towers are unified, <br />because there is no more madness to defeat. <br />Probably they will just change Ajah.


created: 2001-07-11 00:33:25
subject: <b>Elaida the black</b>
body:
I don't know if she will actually become a black sister, but I am a firm believer that Egwene's accepted test was a glimpse of the future, and Elaida blinded by her anger and jealously of Egwene being Amyrlyn, will either go black, or make a deal with the blacks to have Egwene set up, and then she'll take over again.<br /><br />I just wish someone'd kill her, her intire antagonist role is a tree sprouted from her own ignorance.  (her prophesy of the royal family being the key to winning tarmon gaidin, but she picked the wrong family...)<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-13 23:44:45
subject: <b>What about Elaida's Foretelling?</b>
body:
I think that whatever happens with the reunification of the White Tower, the Black isn't going to get off so easily.  Remember Elaida's Foretelling when speaking with Alviarin?  I don't remember the exact wording but it said the the Amyrlin would be triumphant, treading on the grounds of the Black Tower in fire and blood, and reunite the White Tower except for a remnant scorned and forgotten.  Whatever the exact wording it shook up Alviarin significantly.  I also think that Egwene and the sisters are going to make the Asha'man pay dearly for bonding the sisters sent to attack them.  Just a thought!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-14 16:11:56
subject: <b>Egwene's Accepted vision....</b>
body:
The visions Accepted go through in the three archway Ter'angreal are not visions of the future. Its my belief that they are possible futures, the same way that the lifes Rand, Verin, Perrin, Matt and the Shinenars saw when they used the Portal Stones are possible futures. Those are the things that will NOT happen in the future. <br /><br />Besides, for Egwene's vision to come true, Rand has to be captured and shielded, and theres no way in hell Rand is ever going to be captured again. He's finally accepted Lews Therin as part of his conciousness, and this allows him to draw upon the knoledge of one of the most powerful Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. <br /><br /><br /><br />on another note, for god sakes, drop the Taimadread thing. Taim is not fricken Damodread! or howver the hell u spell it. If sometimes Dam does take the place of Taim, i think it was the way someone put it before. Dam takes Taim's place, inverting a weave of Mirrors of Mist i think, so he looks more like Taim, but only when he has to talk to Rand or something. Or something important, like when he visited Elayne. Winters Heart disproves the Taimodread theory completely, since Taim's bad Asha'man who defected at Cairherin got orders from Taim AND THEN Damodread to kill Rand. If they were the same person, the Asha'man wouldve gotten the order once, and wouldve recognised that Taim is Damodread.


created: 2001-07-17 15:28:47
subject: <b>why?</b>
body:
Am i the only person who gets even vaguely annoyed at the thought of the asha'man &quot;joining&quot; the aes Sedai? I, personally, cant stand those stuck up snobs! In my ideal &quot;ending&quot; they would all die, especially Cadsuane....yes...ESPECIALLY her.....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Prince Kheldar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Master Theif<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Practiced Liar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Guide<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 19:10:04
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
In response to WldDevil1, Elaida's foretelling said that the Black Tower would be rent in blood and fire, and that sisters would walk it's grounds. I am convinced that the rending will be an internal war between Taim's and Logain's factions. Nothing in Elaida's foretelling said that SHE would be there. <br /><br />Also, her foretelling said that the White Tower would be made whole but for a remnant, but it does NOT say that the Amyrlin would be responsible for it. Find and reread her foretelling in whole, and you will see that she presumes much in her interpretation.<br /><br />Elaida surely isn't Black, but that doesn't mean she isn't evil. She has made herself powermad to the point of being evil, which has allowed her to become the dupe of Mesaana. Can she be redeemed? It's not impossible. Will she? Not very likely. In fact, it is more likely that Mesaana will kill her to prevent her power from being available to the Salidar AS.<br /><br />Taim isn't Demandred. Such faith one must have to believe the obviously false.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-28 15:31:35
subject: <b>Bah prince khel whatever</b>
body:
I like cadsuane, she has a pretty important role to play, and shes pretty strong. And lets face it i doubt theres anyone in the book with a stronger will then her, myself i prefer to see women in power positions then cleaning the kitchen or whatever.


created: 2002-04-30 20:49:34
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
I think that your prediction sounds pretty good except for two things.<br /><br />First, I don't think that Rand will be using the Choedan Kal for fighting Taim and his cronies, it is WAY too powerful to be used in a fight like that.  I think the Choedan Kal will only be used again at Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />Second, I think its going to take a long time before the white and black towers see eye to eye.  The red ajah is not going to roll over and believe the taint is gone, even if it can be &quot;proven&quot;.  There's definately going to be some conflict there.  I think Rand and Egwene had better realize that their not as high and mighty as they believe and that they can't control everything.  Otherwise there are going to be some serious casualties from a White Tower - Dragonsworn war.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br />The Lord Captain Commander <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-02 10:41:15
subject: <b>Elaida's Role</b>
body:
Elaida is going to fortell that saidin is clear<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 13:54:20
subject: <b>Rand is the Man.</b>
body:
hello rand may need to learn he can function in society normally again, but everyone in Randland better realize you either back rand or not. this is not the time to sit on the fence. Its up to Egwene to get the AS behind Rand. So what if ashaman bond AS theyve been doing it for 3000 years. lots of things will change that the AS wont like.  <br /><br />No more blame on men who can channel, and every thing is better when men and women AS work together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 14:39:24
subject: <b>Long but completely wrong</b>
body:
There are some glaring mistakes in this theory and i dont know why nobody has spotted them.<br />First off,  you think Rand will use the Choedan Kal,  em,  correct me if i'm wrong but in WH when Rand cleanses the taint,  all that is left of the Ter'angrel access keys are a couple of melted stumps.  So how will he access the power?  By holding his twanger?  No!  Also if Rand was to fight anybody with even the male half of the Choedan Kal he wouldn't need anybody fighting with him,  let alone someone weilding the flawed Callandor.  He could pretty much take on anybody accept maybe the DO on his own!<br />Next,  your theory of using gateways to invade Tar Valon.  Again severely flawed,  Gareth Byrne has told Egwene on numerous occasions that Tar Valon will be a long drawn out seige.Egwene has produced gateways in front of him already and considering they are at the walls of Tar Valon you would think a great General would have thought and introduced this plan already!  Also why didnt they just gateway into the city in the first place,  using a true element of suprise,  not a huge leap of thought for a General like Byrne,  instead they travel to the walls OUTSIDE of Tar Valon,  pretty much announcing to the whole of Randland they are about to attack!  Why haven't they?  Ther are not enough Aes Sedai who are powerful enough to open big enough gateways for a sufficient amount of troups to move through,  at the same time,  for an attack from within the walls,  u can't just send troops in one at a time,  u need some sort of formation to attack!  Common Sense!!!  Also,  we are told many times that for a gateway to be successful you need to know the land you are travelling to like the back of your hand!  Again ther would not be enough Aes Sedai who could create gateways,  with this knowledge,  for the attack to be a success!  <br />Finally once again the theory that Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'man they are human,  please???!!!  Why the hell would they,  as Min puts it,  ''Not like it at all''?  I agree that Rand needs to laugh and cry again and from the evidence she is trying to show him that,  but never does she make any reference to helping the Asha'man with this!  Asha'man are not turning into stone like Rand is,  are there not familys in the Black Tower?!  Do we not see after Dumanis Wells that most of them cannot look at the carnge,  some of them have a haunted look in their eyes and i'm sure some of them even vomit!  Wheras Rand marches through the bodys searching for the maidens who died to add to his list!  The Asha'man are arrogant,  as Rand notices,  not cut off emotionally like Rand!  My theory is that Cadsuane will teach them that the Black and White Tower need to work together for the final battle and possibly before or there is no hope,  we know for a fact that Rand would hate this with a passion,  Who better to teach both sides this than an Aes Sedai legend,  who,  when snaps her fingers,  everybody jumps,including the Dragon Reborn!.  Or she will teach them that saidin is not fully cleansed of the taint.  Either one of thes is far more likely!<br />As for Rand being stupid?!  He does not trust Taim at all,  in fact you could probably say he hates him!  But at the time Rand had nobody else who could teach the Asha'man,  he had to give the job to Taim and if you read over it again he was never happy with this fact!  He needs male channelers,  at the time Taim was the only one who had experience to give him what he needed!   <br /><br />Don't think read!  Use a bit of COMMON SENSE for gods sake!<br />If anybody out there thinks i'm wrong i DARE them to prove it otherwise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />P.S.TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED FOR CHRISTS SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-09 11:30:54
subject: <b>Gladly</b>
body:
Ok, I'll prove you just a little wrong.<br /><br />First, we are only shown a melted access key for the female Choedan Kal.  Not both.<br /><br />Secondly, to Travel, one must know the spot he/she is Traveling FROM like the back of his/her hand, not the spot being Traveled TO.<br /><br />Hope that didn't hurt too much.


created: 2002-07-11 13:34:27
subject: <b>Not to much...</b>
body:
Ok i'll accept i was wrong on acouple of points.  Just finished the series for the second time and i realize i was off base on bits of my argument.  I was also in a bit of a strop on that day and got a bit carried away  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />The male half of the Choedan Kahl is still in one peice'  fair enough,  but for Rand to use this against the Asha'man would be suicide for a reason i did not mention before.  As we see in WH,  accessing the sa'angreal is like a beacon for the Forsaken,  Myrdaal,  Gollhum etc.  He uses it and every evil git who can sense a male channeling will be down on him like a ton of bricks!<br />What i said about the gateways is true,  over long distances though,  I realised my error after the re-read.  Obviously with Egwene &amp; co being outside the walls of TV.  But there are still not enough Aes Sedai who are powerful enough to open sufficient gateways to move troops through to gain an advantage.  I like how you ignored that point of my arguement.  Also as soon as a sister opened a gateway inside the walls every tower Aes sedai would sense the channeling and know exactly where it came from,  not much of an element of suprise then,  is there?!<br />We all make mistakes,  even the best of us  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-26 15:45:17
subject: <b>Gateways, and other advantages...</b>
body:
Thanks to Moghedien, and Egwene, Egwene's faction of Aes Sedai have access to many weaves unknown to the Aes Sedai in the Tower. I think the Salidar Aes Sedai might be unwilling to use such weaves (Gateways especially) where other Aes Sedai can learn them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Aliena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Preserver of Sanity<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Yawgmoth's alter-ego <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Calciferous Conjurer! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 07:40:25
subject: <b>Anotehr thought ...</b>
body:
&quot;Into the heart he thrusts his sword,<br />into the heart, to hold their hearts.<br />Who draws it out shall follow after,<br />What hand can grasp that fearful blade?&quot;<br />pg. 349, TSR, soft cover.<br /><br />Um.<br /><br />What if &quot;the heart&quot; isn't &quot;the Heart of the Stone&quot; ... but Taim's literal heart?  What if Callandor becomes, in a sense, a symbol of the M'Hael ... when Logain &quot;follows after&quot; ... ?<br /><br />&quot;into the heart, to hold their hearts&quot; -- thrust the Sword into Taim's heart, to regain / retain the loyalty of the Asha'man, who Taim is currently turnign against Rand?<br /><br />Nevr take the easy road when interpreting prophecy; it'll always bite you on your buttocks if you do ... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-19 20:38:54
subject: <b>White tower, Dark tower and Seanchan</b>
body:
I just read the theory about the black and white towers, and had a thought.<br />One way for the white tower (after it has been healed by Egwene) to recognize the equality of the asha'man could be for them to save the white tower from an attack from the seanchan.<br />Remember in one of the books (can't remember which) Egwene has a dream about the seanchan thretening the white tower, also we have that force of seanchan searching for the daughter of the nine moons (they think the aes sedi took her). They may very well attack the tower (with their &quot;leased ones&quot; of course) and the asha'man are needed to save them.


created: 2006-06-20 04:46:38
subject: <b>I'm just an @$$...</b>
body:
But you did say to prove you wrong Ruthain! Despite the fact the CoT material was unavailable at the time I believe, I'll still point this out! The reason for the lack of gateways is not in fact a lack of strength, but rather Egwene is still hoping for a peaceful resolve without sister killing sister. So in CoT, when Gareth Bryne proposed it, Egwene refused the plan! Sorry, I'm just an arrogant smart@$$.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 04:02:42
subject: <b>RJ likes his good guys</b>
body:
It seems RJ likes his good guys (they don't die off).  Your idea of balance is neat, but I just don't see Matt throwing a wrench in the gears to 'undo' some of the good.  Matt claims to like things real simple. <br />I believe Matt will bring in a seanchan alliance, this could be the allusion RJ is working at.<br />


created: 2001-07-10 05:39:16
subject: <b>mat balance eep</b>
body:
everytime i hear about mat i can't help thinking about his portal stone experience. After which he tells Rand that he would never betray him or some such. <br /><br />blarg<br /><br />phaw!


created: 2001-07-10 07:48:37
subject: <b>Umm, quote please</b>
body:
Your whole theory is based on the fact that you think some ruler somewhere has &quot;the Light of the World&quot; as on of his/her/its titles.  I cannot recall that exact wording from anyone's titles, and I would think that SOMEBODY would have picked up on that idea before now, since Mat is a ton of people's favorite character.  If you can find this quote your theory would have a lot of merit.  Other wise it is just made-up speculation.  Please find a quote.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 09:05:14
subject: <b>Light of the world</b>
body:
I think that the male Aes Sedai leader (the dragon)in the age of legend was also called that. Though im not sure since it&#180;s been sometime since I last looked at the books.<br /><br />/Marcus


created: 2001-07-10 10:21:07
subject: <b>Lews Therin Telamon, the Tamyrlin, has a title:</b>
body:
Lord of Morning.<br /><br />In a way, that KIND OF fits the twice dawns the day prophecy and the give up half the light prophecy (assuming Mat betrays Rand, which I don't believe).  But it's not the same as just saying &quot;half the light of the world&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />(It would help if we had an eyepatch pirate smiley to represent the Mat theories instead of this winking guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 14:26:30
subject: <b>Light of the World</b>
body:
is a name for the Creator<br />&quot;And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be bornn of the mountian, according to the Prophecies,...&quot;<br />Chapter 50 in  the Great Hunt<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Cairdazar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />The Swedish Eagle<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-07-14 15:55:22
subject: <b>Light of the World............</b>
body:
Mat isnt giving up any person, hes giving up half the light of HIS world. <br /><br />&quot; take what you want and pay for it &quot;<br /><br />When Mat discovers, or figures out how to use gunpowder in battle, he's going to lose an eye. Thats the price he has to pay for near-invincibility-in-battle. It has nothing to do with any leader of any country. Once he marries Tuon, he controls a country larger than all the lands east of the Spine of the World. With near unlimited army resources, and amazing power ( sul'dam, different exotic creatures ). <br /><br /><br />      Knave<br />Master of the Editors<br />Perviest of the Perv<br />Slave to the World


created: 2001-09-08 20:58:16
subject: <b>gasp!</b>
body:
I just thought of something... if the Amyrlin really is sometimes called &quot;the light of the world&quot; then does that mean he'll have to kill on of the Amyrlins (Egwene or Elaida)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 19:24:53
subject: <b>I agree with StoneDogAiel</b>
body:
Finally someone who has figured out that he will have to give up half the world to the Seanchan! Everything he does leads back to them just like Perrin always come back to the wolves and the last one... can't remember his name, R-something... has this Dragon-thing. He is linked to the Seanchan like Perrin is linked to the wolves, and it's cold logic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> to reason out that he will ally himself with them - and in so doing give up half the light of the world. I don't like the Seanchan - the damane-thing is creepy like hell - and as I see it he does give up half the light of the world to save the world, cause I can't imagine anything more horrifying then the thought of someone controlling my life like they are controlling the people in the cities they have captured.


created: 2002-01-09 14:01:25
subject: <b>who says they're both from the WT?</b>
body:
what if the two Aes Sedai which Egwene sees on balance scales aren't individuals? could they represent the female and male Aes Sedai?


created: 2002-02-09 01:11:02
subject: <b>The two Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Those two Aes Sedai he had to choose from in Ebou Dar in WH (which I read once when it came out, but not recently)...<br /><br />If one of them was Red, and he didn't choose her, then I guess he's saying that the Reds are bad, and beginning the elimination of the strongest opposition to the Asha'man rejoining the Aes Sedai.  Rejoining <i>saidin</i> and <i>saidar</i>, restoring &quot;balance to the force&quot;.<br /><br />Although I do like that Amyrlin thing....<br />Didn't Egwene have a Dream/vision about (Mat's) Seanchan attacking the White Tower, and wouldn't that attack be arriving just as Egwene's forces get to Tar Valon?


created: 2002-04-07 05:52:54
subject: <b>Couldn't it be that</b>
body:
. . . balance = good; imbalance = name for evil?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 18:01:36
subject: <b>If so...</b>
body:
If this was true, then wouldn't Rand winning Tarmon Gaidon (pardon spelling) negate all existance? Him winning the last battle would mean that good triumphed, and if this stopped wht wheel, then what would be the good in winning?


created: 2003-03-25 21:34:45
subject: <b>his marriage</b>
body:
i think his balancing has to do with him marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons. (if others said this i havent read the other replies yet)


created: 2003-04-17 14:25:17
subject: <b>This make sense</b>
body:
Remember in the sec book(Don't remember it's name(shame on me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />), When they had traveled with the travelstone and saw all of the mirrors, Mat said something like:<br /><br />&quot;Rand I would never betray you!&quot;...<br /><br /><br />O_o @ that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-29 14:31:03
subject: <b>OK?</b>
body:
Well I think you have the right idea just don't know if it will turn out to be true..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 13:43:44
subject: <b>Not much to add, it seems complete...</b>
body:
although I would like to propose an idea that just came to me: what if &quot;half the light of the world&quot; is Seanchan? There are two continents in WoTworld that we know of: Randland and Seanchan. What if Mat somehow revealed the fact that Suldam can channel, knowing what he was doing, and thus destroying Seanchan? I presonnaly DO beleive he'll lose an eye, but it bugs me to think that Nyneave would not heal him in some way... so I like to seek new ideas.<br /><br />Good text, in my opinion!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 17:50:58
subject: <b>no question</b>
body:
I think that there is no question as to RJ's intentions with the seanchan learning about the damane problem.  You've spelled it out great.  My only point of doubt is where you speculate on Matt and Tuon being King/Queen of the Seanchan.  It might be a bit of a stretch.  I would think if something that big was going to happen RJ would make someone have had a viewing or a foretelling, a wolf dream etc,etc.


created: 2001-07-10 19:35:45
subject: <b>2 Corrections</b>
body:
One, to the first comment: we also know of the continent of Shara (sa'Shara etc.), arguably the same as the mainland but really as different as Europe and Asia (not very, mostly political, but they are CALLED continents).  Also, we have the continent of the Land of Madmen, where the breaking is still occuring.<br /><br />The other correction is to the theory itself: it is NOT necessarily fact that Tuon and Mat will marry.  I believe they will, however there is a theory which states that Berelain is of a truer Pendraeg line than the Seanchan empress and is therefore the true Daughter of the Nine Moons.  It was a fairly prominent theory before Winter's Heart and all of that business with Tuon and Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 20:55:23
subject: <b>Re: Berelain</b>
body:
I agree with your.master's above post.  I always wondered what the significance of Berelain's surname being &quot;sur Paedrag.&quot;  We know she'll fall head over heels for a man in white, but wouldn't it be an interesting twist if she ended up DotNM somehow. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 23:41:11
subject: <b>Mat and Berelain</b>
body:
I don't think that Berelain will end up being the DofNM. She and Mat have already met and she made some comment about him being &quot;too much like me.&quot; And why would Mat be dressed in white? I just think that it wouldn't make much sense for Robert Jordan to go to the trouble of introducing Tuon and then not have her end up with Mat. I'm looking forward to finding out what was Foretold about her by one of her damane.


created: 2001-07-11 10:06:31
subject: <b>My Addendum</b>
body:
I do agree that I think the last paragraph of this theory is a stretch.  However, I believe the body and general gist of the theory to be good, so I gave it my nod of approval in the ADMIN comments.  Not that my opinion means anything, it's just I have the Power&#8482; to make comments, so I'll use it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 15:12:01
subject: <b>An Addition?</b>
body:
No one has seemed to mention this but doesn't Tuon herself have some ability to channel and sul'dams as she keeps six of damane. I'm not sure if this is correct or not as I haven't reread WH in some time but I think I'm correct aren't I ???<br /><br />Anyway if it was discovered that Tuon could channel this would throw the empresses entire line into doubt imagine one of her children actually being marath'damane. This in itself could destroy the entire empire as the knowledge would bring the empire to it's knees. <br /><br />And another point doesn't the empress alredy know that Sul'dam can be collared as Suroth decided it was a better idea to report this secret to the empress as she wanted to stay ALIVE!!! and not  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-11 15:36:52
subject: <b>There's no proof Tuon can channel</b>
body:
She just would like to teach damane, and wants them treated well (for a damane, that is)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 23:52:46
subject: <b>Predictions</b>
body:
RJ has a difficult task as he has to shake an entire society to bits and then have Rand &quot;bind the Nine Moons to serve him&quot;.  The first step is to unite Mat and Tuon.  RJ has had it continually brought up that Tuon is on some kind of penance or something and until she recants it she is equally ranked with Suroth so she has to die.<br /><br />I think the best way would be for a zealous Seeker who's discovered the truth to suddenly release Liandrin who will kill Suroth then die herself being attacked by hordes of damane.  Then Tuon returns and rebuilds from the ground up. this is why I think RJ has shown her kindness to damane.  It's a smaller step for her to accept their humanity.<br /><br />The all knowing Xenocide


created: 2001-07-13 09:42:40
subject: <b>Suroth=Semirhage</b>
body:
I agree with the majority of this theory although I have to admit that my personal opinion is that semirhage and demandred are both holed up in the seanchan empire....I believe that suroth is semirhage and that demandred has himself close to the empress and has yet to reveal himself....demandred does love using his proxies as sammuel hinted.  Just my opinion but I think it has merit


created: 2001-07-17 19:41:07
subject: <b>about mat and tuon</b>
body:
Yah the last paragraph of that theory was more just speculation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-18 19:00:30
subject: <b>Mat, Tuon, and Berelain</b>
body:
Remeber, in the Two Rivers, people wear white to funerals ( I just read this in CoS).  So (a wildly speculative idea) Mat has to sacrifice Tuon to save the world, wears white to her funeral and then Berelain-the true DotNM- falls in love w/him.  Hows that for outlandish.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 06:42:45
subject: <b>I thought Tuon could channel also...</b>
body:
I know I read she was tested to see if she could be a sul'dam...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inner_Turmoil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Inner: of or relating to the mind or spirit <br /><br />Turmoil : a state or condition of extreme confusion, agitation, or commotion <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-28 13:28:58
subject: <b>Tuon can channel, so there!</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart, it says that Tuon's hobby is training <i>damane</i>. In fact, she was the one who brought Mylen, also know as Sheraine Sedai, out of her depression--as it were--of being collared as a <i>damane</i>. You cannot train <i>damane</i> if you are not able to channel yourself. So there. Tuon <i>can</i> channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 15:19:20
subject: <b>attack</b>
body:
	getting someone onto seachan controlled lands or even the seachan main land to spraed that tasty tid bit around would be a great way to stop the seachan invation


created: 2001-09-28 18:14:43
subject: <b>Tuon can learn to channel</b>
body:
Hey everyone, this is my fist post here.<br />In WH, &quot;What a veil hides&quot; p. 324-325 it says &quot;Many had thought it odd when Tuon tested for sul'dam on reaching adulthood, though none could gainsay her, then....Acutally becoming a sul'dam was unthinkable, of course, but she found as much enjoyment in training damane as in training horses, and she was as good at one as the other.  Mylen was the proof of that.&quot;<br /><br />True, it does not say that she past the sul'dam test, but it says she took it and then trained damane.  We know that damane are trained by sul'dam.  Also, while actually becoming a sul'dam was unthinkable for her (presumably because of her postion), apparently it was a theoretical option.  If she had failed the test it would not have been an option.<br /><br />I agree with the general point of the theorey that the revelation that sul'dam can learn to channel will be a huge blow to the Seachan and will result in major changes that allow them to become allied with Rand.  I think that Tuon being able to learn will be a big part of that also.<br /><br />Also, I Suroth isn't Semirage, Anath is.  I can't see Suroth failing to strike down Liandrin when the two were bickering when Liandrin handed over Eg and company in tGH.  Also, the clues that Sem=Anath are too plentiful.


