# w_comment

created: 2003-06-09 05:51:20
subject: <b>first paragraph is a quote,</b>
body:
my apologies for lack of clarity there<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-09 11:34:58
subject: <b>What about the Purple Ajah?</b>
body:
This theory was predicated on the assumption that it was either AS or Black Ajah who captured Egwene.<br /><br />This does not consider the idea of the Purple Ajah - a secret organization involving the heads of the Ajahs and a few trusted members (perhaps Verin?).<br /><br />By the way, the Sea Folk girl taken to the tower has a long way to go before she would reach it, and even if she did, she came from the Caemlyn group and would have no idea of Egwene's plans.<br /><br />Besides, against the idea of the Black Ajah holding Egwene, I have these two points:<br /><br />1) If the 'bargain' mentioned is in fact a bargain, why would the BA need to bargain at all? why couldn't they just take what they wanted to take? Especially if the betrayer is Nicola, trying to buy her way into the tower and extra lessons. What does the BA care about her? They'd put her to the question as soon as they found out she had information.<br /><br />2) If the 'bargain' is just a figure of speech, there is no reason for self-confident black ajah members to think that they got more than they could handle/expect (as the FoS would tend to indicate). I would expect them to say something more like, &quot;She will be very pleased with this; surprised, but very pleased.&quot;<br /><br />The very fact that they used 'we' points to a self-contained group, even more self-contained than the BA would be, having to report to someone (even if they don't know that someone is Mesaana).


created: 2003-06-09 16:41:00
subject: <b>The 10 SAS sisters in the Tower @ Merilille and Talaan</b>
body:
Lacerator:   the 10 sisters sent from Salidar are there to spread the word about the Red Ajah setting up Logain as a False Dragon, in order to discredit Elaida.  They left Salidar before Egwene arrived there, so have no knowledge of all the new weaves, such as Travelling, to reveal about the SAS.<br /><br />rubbernilly:  Yes, Merilille did escape Caemlyn with Talaan, apprentice WindFinder in tow, but I would expect her to go to the rebels at Dragonmount.  Both of them know how to weave Gateways.  You have some good points, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-09 17:54:59
subject: <b>Or</b>
body:
Unless Merilille is the Black Sister with Elayne (i.e. the one that killed Adeleas), and has taken Talene to Turn her.


created: 2003-06-09 21:36:47
subject: <b>jofraz</b>
body:
Forgot about one thing that disqualifies the sea folk, they all left to select the new mistress of the ships, although I was under the impression that at least one of sisters was still in contact with the rebel tower. I am not good with references but I believe they made it so she would still continue to report to the rebels and carry out there plans, but would tell them everything. But then again who's to say it's not the aes sedai with Gawyn, and the soldiers are actually Gawyn's men. Oh so many directions and only 2 more books.


created: 2003-06-11 21:00:17
subject: <b>It's everyones favorite blackmailer</b>
body:
It's the tower Aes Sedai. The girl is non other than Nicola, our run away. She ran straight to the tower with the info in hopes they would favor her for it. She is the one who is using the one power. And nobody, not even Halima, new Egwene was going to change her mind at the last moment. They were just there to stop whoever was changing the chain and perhaps get their hands on all the new spiffy talents the Rebels have picked up via our girls. But all this has just set up the perfect scene for Egwenes dreams to come true. Remeber Gawyn is running to save her, he has to make a choice, the door is closeing on her, her heads on a chopping block so to speak and all these things have to happen just right or she's toast. She also has the rebel Aes Sedai in the tower who have been found out by the ones searching for the BA. Who so convenently think Elida might be one or is being used by one. Why write so much about them if RJ isn't going to use them in a big way? Anyway, I think she will be just find after some nailbiting scenes. What a great way to get the plot a move'n.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lira Sedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br />Your words do not fall upon a heart<br />of stone - Prince John <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-13 12:48:49
subject: <b>3 Oaths</b>
body:
Many people are referecing the idea that the Sisters who sunk the boat with the Power were using as a weapon, thereby violiting one of the 3 Oaths.  I would point out that the Oath specifically excepts the case of defending their life, lives of fellow sisters, and warders.  Turning the chain into heartstone could be perceived as an attack on the Tower and increasing the threat of further attacks on the Tower.  By preventing this they would be defending themselves from possible death or injury.<br /><br />As for Paitr's reference to Egwene's inner monologue in CoT, I would point out that Egwene is far more concientious than many other sisters.  While she would perceive such an attack as using the Power as a weapon, less discriminating individuals might not.<br /><br />As a final point, throughout CoT we see the Black Ajah in retreat throughout the Tower.  Mesaana gets severely punished, Alviarin gets ousted, and the Green Sitter is captured.  Not that this rules out the possibility of course, but a major operation by the Black at this time would run counter to general trend of events that have been recently occurring in the Tower, vis a vie the Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-17 07:45:15
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
Why most of you think that BA had no good motive for capturing Egwene?I think it's pretty clear that BA have orders to prolong the Tower War as long as they can,thus keeping the Aes sedai weak and divided by the time of Tarmon Gai'Don. They've may not expected Egwene there, but they would've certainly wanted to make sure that the chain's not turned into cuendillar which woud've given the SAS a big advantage.<br /><br /> And most importantly, those AS who attacked Egwene clearly use the Power as a weapon thus violating the Three Oaths. The quote is pretty clear on that:<br /> &quot;She had just time to realize that somebody had embraced the Source not far away, above her on the wall, then something struck the boat, struck her, and she was aware of cold water enveloping her, filling her nouse, her mouth. Darkness.&quot;<br /> Egwene was hit with OP and felt unconcious in the water. If that's not using OP as a weapon,I don't know what it is.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-17 19:49:06
subject: <b>Diomedes-</b>
body:
has a point.  The WT sisters {not the BA, IMHO} could well have thought the Tower was under attack when they saw Saidar being wielded in the boat, thereby not violating the 3 Oaths.<br /><br />In addition, those in favor of BA assume the boatmen to be drowned.  We don`t know the fate of them.  The probability is that they were rescued, also {unless it was the BA, which I don`t believe, as posted above}<br /><br />We`ll have to RAFO, if we live long enough!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-18 17:12:26
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
the AS who captured Egwene would've no doubt seen that Egwene channeled against the port chain and it was not an attack weave therefore not endangering their life or the life of any AS or warder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-19 16:27:34
subject: <b>Zeratul</b>
body:
It depends on your interpretation of those events.  The chain is certainly an integral part of the overall Tower defense.  Anything that weakens that defense could be seen as endangering the sisters within the Tower.  Imagine that Bryne had builders making a floating bridge over the river.  Could the sisters attack the float bridge in an attempt to prevent an attack that might cost some sisters or their warders their lives?  Similarly any action against the chain could be seen as directly threatening the well-being of the Tower inhabitants.  So long as the chain is functioning properly there is little possibility for Bryne to send soldiers into Northharbor and Southharbor.<br /><br />Jofraz also brings up an excellent point.  I think it is  reasonable to assume that the boatmen are excellent swimmers that could swim away from their sinking boat and back to shore, rather than inexperienced swimmers who would drown when dumped into the river.  They make their living on the water, after all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-19 20:51:55
subject: <b>Stilling and Healing</b>
body:
It doesn't really matter that Flinn is nowhere near Egwene at this point in the plot. The Seanchan/Tower Battle will undoubtedly be huge. Many characters will proabbly be drawn there (Mat, for example). Leave it to the plot to bring Flinn there, because it's totally plausible.


created: 2003-06-22 07:00:12
subject: <b>It's got to be RAFO</b>
body:
You're all talking like the &quot;Tower Aes Sedai&quot; are one, monolithic, group.<br />This just isn't true, every sister is a faction on her own.<br />I think Egwene says something to that effect, about AS being full of deep currents, or something.<br />It could have been the BA hunters, the Ajah heads, someone who just happened to be guarding the docks, waiting for a message or something.<br />In fact, &quot;we got more than we bargained for&quot; supports the idea that they were engaged in some completely unrelated plot, and happened to be in the right place at the right time. We know &quot;Aes Sedai scheme like fish swim&quot; (is that right?)<br />It could just be coincidence.<br />The soldiers are not conclusive to anything; a couple of Greens with their Warders would fit the description.<br />The way the Tower is at the moment, with everyone avoiding each other, it is more likely to be a lone sister than anyone else.<br />Anyway, it can't be Elaida's doing, because she would never order the use of Forkroot. <br /><br />It has to be RAFO...<br /><br />Bladud


created: 2003-06-28 18:50:18
subject: <b>How do they know?</b>
body:
How do the Aes Sedai know that it is Egwene that they dragged out of the water? The quote is, &quot;Do you know who this is?&quot; ...&quot;Well, well. We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.&quot;<br /><br />The fact that they believe they got *better* than they bargained for implies they know she is more than a miscellaneous Aes Sedai. They certainly know she is the SAS Amyrlin Seat. I find it odd that a large percentage of the SAS still don't recognize Egwene by sight (without her stole, at least), but the Aes Sedai who dragged her out of the water do.<br /><br />Egwene spent very little time in the tower. Who is most likely to recognize her? Does this give us a hint?


created: 2003-07-09 16:36:58
subject: <b>In responce to Paitar Nichiman</b>
body:
&quot;Even one death would make what she did using the Power as a weapon...A sister who had sworn on the Oath Rod would not be able to MAKE herself set those weaves, perhaps not even to form them, unless she could convice herself she was in immdieate danger from teh ships.&quot;(Jordan's emphasis) Since we all agree that the captors knew what the person in the boat would doing and that the sister would not even be aware of their presence it is impossible that they could believe they were in immediate danger. No this was the work of someone not bound by the three oaths. <br /><br /><br />Paitar:  If you use that logic that the boat would sink and thereful people would be killed and it was used as a weapon; then they could very easily knock Egwene out with a weapon.  Egwene was using Cuindillar to seal the gate, therefore starting a seige, people die in a seige. This is indirectly a threat to anyone in Tar Valon. so an Aes Sedai could use a weapon against her.  This does not require the people to have to know who was coming to make it into Cuindillar, yet they would have to know what was going to happen.  Cause like everyones said &quot;more than we bargained for&quot; could just be a phraze or it could be what it says.<br /><br />I really agree that if they weren't going to use it to kill her it wouldn't be defined as a weapon.  But theres your logic for if you do define it as a weapon.  I'm not sure if I agree with this theory cause I haven't read the books in a long time but I like it.<br /><br />I'm not stating anything here as a fact just throwing some idea's out there.


created: 2003-07-21 21:02:28
subject: <b>A Revelation.....</b>
body:
Everybody, listen up.<br /><br />The OP was NOT used to sink the boat.<br /><br />After reading Zerutel`s thread above with the quote we are all argueing about, I went back to the source.<br /><br />CoT, HB pg. 677.<br /><br />&quot;....., then something struck the boat, struck her, and she was aware of cold water.....&quot;<br /><br />Don`t you see?  Egwene did not say the OP struck the boat. She said &quot;something&quot;.  If the OP had hit her, she would have named it as such.  She, or no other channeler, ever refers to the OP as &quot;something&quot;.<br /><br />IMO, an object of some sort, such as a boulder, sank the boat.<br /><br />If all of this is true, then it was not the BA involved, for all the reasons listed in the favorable threads above.<br /><br />Hope someone reads this and gets it posted for discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-06 20:58:58
subject: <b>Who Really Got Egwene</b>
body:
Uh, people, do you remember that little group of Aes Sedai with the Younglings in the little town near Tar Valon, the one trying to seek entrance into the city? They are a small faction that has mysterious missions to carry out, by order of the Amyrlin?<br /><br />I think that they are the ones who got Egwene. I mean, they were trying to find a way into Tar Valon, and she was nearby too. How many people would be simply hanging around Tar Valon's walls, in the dead of a winter night, and with a dangerous siege thrown in? Even most Aes Sedai wouldn't hang around such a conspicuous place, or have reason to, with the additional guard as the result of the siege. Doing anything furitively would have not brought too much success.<br /><br />As an additional plus, those are the Aes Sedai with the Younglings in that small town near Tar Valon whose name I cannot remember, and of course Gawyn is right there to fulfill all of his prophecies that Min and Egwene both saw. <br /><br />


created: 2004-04-13 09:16:57
subject: <b>I...</b>
body:
Hmm, i made a new theory post...but just submitted it. Would have put it here, but...oh well.<br /><br />Anyway my theory's on SHERIAM doing it...as seen from egwene's experience in the ter angreal. there ya have it, a 2 page writeout in one sentence<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-22 12:34:29
subject: <b>I always assumed...</b>
body:
that the AS that caught Eggie were the ones in the little town outside Tar Valon and the soldiers were probably younglings.  It was difficult to get in and out of Tar Valon, Right?  The red sister that was in Saledia (sic) and Katerine, the AS that escaped from the Aiel both wanted to get back to the tower but it was difficult.  I think Gawyn is closer than most of you think and I don't thing Eggie is in as much trouble as it looks.  I guess we will have to RAFO.  My guess is someone will make a mistake and think that she is under the influence of forkroot when she is not or that she does not need it when she is sleeping. Something.  I am not sure that she even needs anyone to rescue her.  She is a resouceful girl.  What is interesting to me is the &quot;bat&quot; she saw just before this happened.  The Seanchan believe strongly that all channelers should be collared so I am wondering if they think they can just go round up the AS in Tar Valon.  The thing that bothers me most is these characters don't seem to be able to put two and two together and come up with a logical answer.  Nobody tells anybody else anything.  They usually get miffed over something stupid and they totally misunderstand other's intentions.  I think the main theme of the books is look what happens when people don't trust each other.<br /><br />I have read the theory boards for months now and this is my first &quot;theory&quot; post so please be gentle.  I have read the books through four times.  I have notes in the margins and stuff highlighted but I still don't know who killed Asmo<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">:0 Alea Sedai :0</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-06 16:19:09
subject: <b>Why would they kidnap them in the first place?</b>
body:
If you assume that the captors were there to stop Leane and Bode from turning the chain to cuendillar and kidnap them, you have to ask yourself...why would they kidnap two people who supposedly were just there to turn the chain into cuendillar? Wouldn't it be easier to just kill them? Sure, you may say that they would take them in for questioning but they obviously have eyes-and-ears in the camp, so what more could they want to know?<br /><br />Bravo for the theory though...i'm convinced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hae rettii kippo fettei jii alno hae ettmae joi reddoj.<br />The dragon shall ride again on the winds of time.<br /><br />Mess with me you mess with all seven Warders.<br /><br />Kylarii of the Rebel Aes Sedai<br />Daughter of the Ravens.<br />Sister to the Wolf.<br /><br />DOWN WITH ELAIDA</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 11:31:07
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
&#8220;Suddenly Egwene was glad she had approved Beonin&#8217;s suggestion. Telling Kairen why she needed to try harder might have spurred her efforts but this was another secret that had to be kept until the time came to unveil it to the world.&#8221; <br /><br />This quote implies Beonin knew about the plan way beforehand. <br /><br />This quote implies nothing! Egwene only thought that she was glad she had approved beonin's suggestion. She didn't think that negotiation could buy time, only that it shows that Aes Sedai that Egwene and the Hall are doing something. Nisao didn't know about that plan. And she is one of egwene adviser. How could Beonin betrays Egwene while she had swear featly to her? She could hardly thinks that giving always the plan will give Egwene some credits!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 13:00:42
subject: <b>Twisting the Truth</b>
body:
I totally agree it was Beonin, nice theory!<br /><br />Even considering the oath of fealty - an Aes Sedai can make herself believe almost anything she wants to believe in order to accomplish her ends..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 16:03:33
subject: <b>Nicola</b>
body:
I don't see your logic...<br /><br />I also see nothing that implicates Beonin.<br /><br />In my head, everything still points to Nicola...<br /><br />You are forgetting that she is a sneaky little spy-like girl.<br /><br />She was already caught spying on the ground where they made gateways, she already tried to extort the sisters, and she had close association with Bode.  <br /><br />It would have been very easy for her to manipulate Bode's innocence and learn of the plan.<br /><br />Plus, we have the dream of Nicola testifying at the Tower.<br /><br />In short, I think it was Nicola.<br /><br />Why would Beonin betray Egwene when she had sworn an oath of fealty?  I just looked on Encyclopedia WoT, so I am pretty sure that she did.<br /><br />The only way aroundt this, would be to say that Beonin was BA.  But we have no indication of that-- and all evidence points to the tower capturing Egwene, and no the Black Ajah.<br /><br />So, I don't think there is much chance of this theory panning.<br /><br />But good work, and thanks for your theory.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 16:43:31
subject: <b>Oaths of Fealty</b>
body:
I am trying to find the exact wording of the oaths of fealty but since Beonin was forced into swearing them she only has to follow the letter not the intent. Most oaths of fealty say serve so and so and obey all their commands. Well if this is the wording Beonin could betray Egwene without going against these oaths (sort of like Aes Sedai avoid the three oaths)<br /><br />Also a member of the BA could betray her to the Tower Ajah, that is not beyond belief, since most of the time BA members act as normal Aes Sedai.


created: 2003-06-02 16:56:16
subject: <b>Don&#171;t forget</b>
body:
Beonin knew about the plan to turn the chains into cuendillar. There is no evidence that anybody knew about Egwene doing it herself. If I remember correctly, she only changed her mind to do this when she heard of Kairen&#171;s death, which turned Bode into the situation to be the one to do it, maybe even later during the sitting of the Hall concerning the Oath Rod and its possible use to unbind. Thus the betrayal was of Egwene&#171;s plan in first hand, not of her personally. The quote with the better bargain than expected can be seen as a point of evidence for this. In the consequence, this betrayal would not necessarily collide with the fealty Beonin swore especially considering the circumstances.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 17:19:17
subject: <b>Beonin does not know about the chain plan</b>
body:
Tha author of this theory obviously believes the quote about &quot;Beonin's suggestion&quot; refers to Beonin suggesting the plan be kept a secret.  In reality, the suggestion that Egwene approved was that they open negotiations with the real Hall of the Tower (and you know they are the real Hall; whatever they say about Elaida being a usurper and an illegitimate Amyrlin, they have nothing similar to say against the Hall in Tar Valon).  Egwene is glad she had approved the negotiations because it gives the appearance of doing something.  In reality, she is doing something - having sisters work on their cuendillar skills in preparation for wrecking the chain - but she cannot let anyone know ahead of time, so it looks like she is sitting there doing nothing.  The negotiations give everyone some thing to pin their hopes on until the chain can be frozen in place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 18:41:37
subject: <b>How did this ever become a Theory???</b>
body:
There is absolutely no evidence for Beonin being the betrayer except:<br /><br />1. One of the most ambiguous quotes I have ever seen offered in evidence.<br /><br />2. The author couldn't think of anyone else.<br /><br />In answer to 1. I cannot add much to Darien's comments above - Beonin could have made any number of suggestions that Egwene liked, but not to negotiate with Elaida is certainly up there. There is nothing to support this quote being proof that Beonin is the betrayer except point 2.<br /><br />In answer to 2, there are at least three more likely people that we know are Black Ajah:<br /><br />1. Nicola - the theory asks why Nicola should know the objective when some Aes Sedai didn't. Simple: she was due to be one of the two participants. Additionally, she is a very smart girl, and has shown herself a) perfectly capable of putting 2 &amp; 2 together (think about her deducing that Egwene would have posed as Aes Sedai because Nynaeve &amp; Elayne did, or deducing the truth about Myrelle &amp; Lan), and b) willing to put her knowledge to good use to her best advantage (trying to blackmail Egwene, and succeeding in blackmailing Myrelle and Nisao into giving her extra lessons).<br /><br />2. Halima - it has become progressively clearer that Egwene has become ever more trusting of Halima, to the point of allowing her to hang around during important meetings. I think it is (at the very least) credible that she has let something slip to Halima, either consciously or not, or that Halima is able to draw more out of Egwene's head than pain. And despite what the Theory-writer says, it makes much more sense to thwart Egwene by leaking to the BA in the Tower rather than betray her own position, which she has been maintaining since CoS for a reason (whatever that is). She did not of course know that Egwene would herself be one of the two to go.<br /><br />3. Sheriam - she has either been turned by the BA, or broken. See end of Ch.16 PoD. 'Nuff said.<br /><br />Furthermore, if it could be Beonin because it's not any of the other people listed, why not Carlinya (a much more likely Black) or any of the other Six?<br /><br />And if the Theory-writer cannot eliminate the Hall, Delana is also a better candidate - at least we know she's Black.


created: 2003-06-02 18:52:11
subject: <b>Betrayal.. bah</b>
body:
She was not betrayed. The tower would most likely have a rather skilled commander/leader of the Tower Guard.<br />He would most certainly have the weak spots guarded.<br />&quot;low and behold&quot; I thought it was &quot;lo and behold&quot;. Maybe you slipped... keyboards can be treacherous indeed =)


created: 2003-06-02 19:00:22
subject: <b>Just to make it clear...</b>
body:
...from my comments above, it is fairly clear I believe the Black Ajah captured Egwene. For my reasons why see my comments to the &quot;The Tower Ajah&quot; theory.


created: 2003-06-02 20:12:01
subject: <b>Beonin may well be-</b>
body:
the Betrayer. but only your second theory works.  The lst point about Egwene glad she had let Beonin go ahead was in reference to the negotians with the TV Hall,<br /><br />Your second point is well reasoned.  I think Beonin, in her dealings with the TV Hall-THE SAME DAY THAT EGWENE WAS CAUGHT- would explain the whole situation nicely:  Sisters being aware that something or someone would be at the Harbors-not knowing anything else except that.  I dont believe they were BA because of the use of the tea. And, let us not forget RJ`s use of &quot;more than we BARGAINED FOR'<br /><br />Aside to matrimony cauthon-- the last line at the bottom of your posting is still offensive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 20:34:27
subject: <b>Why did Egwene go herself?</b>
body:
This is the question we need to be asking. It was downright stupid for Egwene to go instead of Bode. Her arguments were not rational even in her own head, she seemed confused and dazed, she had no idea what she was doing, or why she was doing it.<br /><br />Lets assume two points:<br />1) Egwene is not stupid enough to make this massive mistake by herself (this is the weakest assumption in the logic)<br />2) No ordinary Aes Sedi would have the power to twist Egwene's mind without her knowing<br /><br />Therefore:<br />1) Egwene's mind was twisted<br />2) It was probably a forsaken<br /><br />So who 'betrayed' Egwene - Halima. She put the stupid plan in Egwene's stupid head, made her do it, told her contacts in the Tower (Black Ajah) and they picked her up (or told the non-Black Tower Ajah to pick her up depending on the end plan).<br /><br />What are the flaws in this theory?<br />1) Halima already had Egwene under her thumb - why get rid of her?<br />Answer - the Dark One has a plan. That is all the answer we need, he does things that make no obvious sense for the greater plan.<br /><br />2) Egwene would have realised she was being manipulated<br />Answer - Egwene is stupid and didn't connect the headaches to Halima, she doesn't have the power or experience of the forsaken, she can't feel Saiden, lead characters often act stupidly in WoT<br /><br />3) The Aes Sedi who picked her up was not expecting Egwene<br />Answer - maybe she wasn't told the full plan. Halima just told her contacts to pick up the Aes Sedi working on the chain. Wouldn't be the first time people were only told what they needed to know by Aes Sedi or Chosen.


created: 2003-06-02 23:06:20
subject: <b>My Overall response to everything</b>
body:
I realize there has been a lot of debate about the correctness of one of the quotes.<br /><br />&quot;Telling Kairen why she needed to try harder might have spurred her efforts but this was another secret that had to be kept until the time came to unveil it to the world.&#8221; <br /><br />The reason Kairen would have needed to work harder would have been to increase her skill for Egwene's plan. This is preceded by the line <br /><br />&quot;Suddenly Egwene was glad she had approved Beonin&#8217;s suggestion&quot;<br /><br />Since these two sentences flow together it is reasonable to assume that the first sentence relates to the second. The only logical connection is that Beonin's suggestion relates to Egwene's plan. Of course it could just be a mistake on Jordan's part but writing the sentences like this connects them together. <br /><br />As for the fealty - Most oaths of fealty in WoT say to obey and serve. Giving away Egwene's plan doesn't directly counter either of these elements. And since Egwene wasn't going to do it originally Egwene herself wsn't really being betrayed.<br /><br />Okay, yes I understand the Hall was not completely eliminated as possible betrayers, there are simply too many of them. Basically though, it appears Egwene told them at the last moment (no time to betray her) and I have yet to seen any evidence that supports any of them as having a motive.<br /><br />Obviously some people will continue to blame Nicola even if someone else were to claim responsibility simply because Nicola is so easily blamed. As is mentioned in theory though there is no evidence to show that Nicola could have obtained enough information to discover the plan. Also since Nicola was rebelling against all Aes Sedai (who were preventing her learning) I doubt she would run away to the other group of Aes Sedai left (ie the Tower)<br /><br />Halima is quite rightly a good suspect. She might have been able to learn the plans and she might hae betrayed Egwene because the DO said to. However both of these seem very unlikely. I guess the big quesion is What would the DO hope to gain by Egwene's plan failing? The only other thing that speaks against Halima being the betrayer is the statement that Tower Aes Sedai got more than they bargained for. If Halima was the betrayer she could not have negotiated with the Tower it is more likely she would have slipped it in through the BA and there would be no bargain involved.


created: 2003-06-03 00:06:35
subject: <b>Why would Egwene take a suggestion?</b>
body:
She only listens to Siuan and Leane and Chesa.  No one else, especially someone in an inferior position could have anything worth saying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 06:58:04
subject: <b>It's has to be one of the Sitter</b>
body:
Because except Sheriam, Siuan, Leane and the Hall nobody know about the plan. Sheriam knows because she was in the Hall when Egwene tells the Sitter about the plan. maybe it is the Sitter who torture Sheriam. By betray the plan it could weaked Egwene position as the Armylin. Maybe that was the reason for betray. Egwene alway comments how the sitter hates to be on her dumb because the Law of the War.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 13:39:25
subject: <b>Thanks to Adrian...</b>
body:
... for pointing out Egwene's confusion. This might be a pointer to Halima : Compulsion, which only the Forsaken know.<br /><br />I haven't seen a definitive theory on who's beating Sheriam, though Halima must be favourite. Either Sheriam is Black (2 Black Keepers? a bit hackneyed perhaps...), or she is being beaten/ been broken by someone MUCH stronger than her. Assuming none of the other Forsaken are popping in and out of Egwene's camp, it's got to be someone in the camp. Sheriam's pretty strong, certainly one of the top half dozen in the rebel camp. An extra reason for Halima is that no-one will be able to sense &quot;her&quot; channelling.


created: 2003-06-03 18:59:39
subject: <b>No Confusion in Egwene`s MIND</b>
body:
I have just re-read the section of Egwene`s thoughts just before she decided to replace Bode.  There is absolutely no confusion, IMHO, in her mind.  She was thinking clearly.  Go back and re-read yourselves, without prejudging that Egwene is stupid.  She is one of the most intelligent persons in the WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 21:40:31
subject: <b>Really?</b>
body:
Well then what was the logic that she should go do it herself? There was no logic, her thought processes were muddled up. It was basically, &quot;some novice ran away ... there are some things the Arymilin Seat must do herself&quot;. If the change was logical, why did it have to be a last minute change of plan without telling anyone? The only sane reason would be if Bode would not be able to do it quick enough - but this reason never came up in Egwene's POV, and even if it had, why wasn't it raised earlier?<br /><br />I do dislike Egwene, but usually she is intelligent while be a bitch. Here she was simply confused. If you have a quote were she states logical reasons to change the plan, tell me and you'll change my mind, 'till then ... compulsion.


created: 2003-06-04 04:13:13
subject: <b>Bargaining</b>
body:
I think this was mentioned several times before but since people still do not seem to understand: getting more then you bargained for is a very common saying which means you got more then you expected. It does not neccesarily have anything to do with negotiations, and Jordan has used it several times before in this meaning. If you want to prove the capture has something to do with the negotiations, you shall have to come up with additional evidence. By the way, most oaths of fealty automatically include no talking about your lord's secrets.


created: 2003-06-04 04:45:05
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
But who else could have knowed the plan? Egwene, Siuan, Leane, The hall, Sheriam and bode are the only. It is possible that Sheriam tell her little council and the Hall the other sister or Head Ajah. But that we don't know. The only think that we now know is that the Hall know about the plans.<br />They talk about bargain. Didn't that require some talk? Some negotiations about what the betrayer demand for betray the plan?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-04 05:51:07
subject: <b>A suggestion about the suggestion</b>
body:
&#8220;Suddenly Egwene was glad she had approved Beonin&#8217;s suggestion. Telling Kairen why she needed to try harder might have spurred her efforts but this was another secret that had to be kept until the time came to unveil it to the world.&#8221;<br /><br />If Egwene could not tell Kairen the real reason to spur her efforts then maybe she used a cloaked reason. In this case it had been approved to use the manufacture of cuendillar to fund their war effort. Now I have not read the book for a while and do not have it with me, but either this is a good reason to spur her on or she was opposed to the idea of selling cuendillar and that was why she lacked enthusiasm. In either case, the manufacture of cuendillar provided the perfect cover for the training operation. I can't remember but if Beonin had made the suggestion of selling the cuendillar then Egwene would be glad for the cover and the spur. This would also explain the two sentences being linked without suggesting that Beonin was in on the plan.


created: 2003-06-04 12:43:15
subject: <b>you read it wrong</b>
body:
Atleast I think so. Beonin suggest to start negotiation with the Sitter in the Tower. And Egwene was glad that she approves it. It did give her time for her's plan and also showing to other sisters that there is something going on. That they not just sitting and wait for Garet to find ships and block the Habor. But Egwene knows that it is impossible and start with her heartstone plans. I think nobody except Leane and Siuan know about the plan until she tells the hall in What the Oath rod can do. That is how I read it. She mentions something &quot;keeping the Hall about like a slap to her face or so&quot; that mean to me she tells the Hall about the plan when Kairen is ready to perform it and they decide what day Kairen and leane is going to do it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-04 13:15:06
subject: <b>just one statement</b>
body:
Compulsion doesn't work once you embrace the true source.  I wears off.  I think Egewene would have remembered being questioned.  Ohh, I think Lanfear was the one to tell us if someone who wards their dreams will be hurt if the ward is broken.


created: 2003-06-04 14:43:15
subject: <b>oh, boy</b>
body:
Cannoli and Jordanian...I completely agree with both of you. This theory suffers from illogical connections (eg, the whole &quot;bargain&quot; issue). <br /><br />Still, we have to appreciate that time was taken to shed a little light on Egwene's capture.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-04 18:27:52
subject: <b>Problem...</b>
body:
How do you account for any power hungry member of the Hall. You said you weren't sure, but even Sheriam is a possibility in betrayal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sargon of Akkad<br />Owner of the <font color="silver">Silver Couch</font><br />The Unknown Elder<br /><i><font color="crimson">I feel like grandpa on the porch with his stick grumbling about whipper-snappers      *giggles*</font></i>~Jenn<br /><font color="green">Doesn't Gary just love us all? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font>~Spettio<br /><font color="gray">The Sultan of Swing&quot;</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-05 04:18:10
subject: <b>I also think it was Nicola...</b>
body:
it fits with her character.<br /><br />But also all Hall members who learned from the plan can't be ruled out so quickly. <br />You said that only Beonin had a possible motive and a good opportunity. I believe that is wrong.<br />We don't know really what every Hall member, especially the BA Delana, plan. <br />Therefore all could have a possible motive though we don't know it yet.<br /><br />And the good opportunity for an Aes Sedai is really not a problem. <br />We know that Aes Sedai use pigeons. As soon as you learn the plan you can send a pigeon with a message to the WT which tells them everything. <br />That's a very quick way to tell it someone in the Tower especially since the Rebel Aes Sedai are so near Tar Valon. So there was enough time for the betrayal.


created: 2003-06-05 05:19:20
subject: <b>warding dreams</b>
body:
Egwene doesn't ward her dreams, btw. It would hinder her Dreaming (i.e she could enter TAR but not wander from Dream to Dream or have the Dreams coming) - she states that when she is still with the Aiel in Cairhien (can't remember exactly)<br />What is quite noticable is that Egwene hasn't had a proper Dream (yes, the capitalized ones) ever since her headaches started. But she Dreams that one night, when Halima is not around (when Egwene sent her off and Chesa gave her this strange tea). So obviously Halima's Compulsion or whatsoever is also directed to prevent Egwene from Dreaming, ie from knowing to much!! It's quite telling that Egwene is captured within the very same week of having started to Dream again. Maybe Halima is afraid of Egwene fidning out more than is good for the DOs plan and thus gets rid of her by handing her over to teh Tower where she certainly will be kept very strictly. Though I HOPE she'll not be stilled. Maybe she is going to find out a lot of useful thinsg during captivity, either by Dreaming or in other ways, before Gawyn shows up to resue her in a grande gesture! At least I hope so. Teh point in her captivity is to get Gawyn back on stage and to find out about a few things concerning the BA and the TAS, IMHO.<br />


created: 2003-06-05 13:58:50
subject: <b>Quote on oaths of fealty</b>
body:
Egwene refering to Sheriam in PoD<br />&quot;There was no need to say she trusted a forced oath only so far, even a sister's. And Sheriam might find reason to let a word slip into thw wrong ear despite that oath. After all, Aes Sedai were noted for finding loopholes in what they said.&quot;<br /><br />just a little comment that shows Egwene doesn't believe the oath of fealty will prevent those under the oath from revealing secrets.


created: 2003-06-09 08:44:31
subject: <b>Not Necessarily Beonin</b>
body:
I have to agree with a number of the comments already posted.  There is nothing in the text to suggest that Beonin has been taken into Egwene's confidence regarding the plan.  Egwene is pleased she agreed to Beonin's suggestion regarding the negotiations because it gives Kairen time to improve her cuendillar-producing skills.  That is not to say I think Beonin is not her betrayer, I have not the faintest idea who it is (save that I strongly doubt it was Leane or Siuan), just that I don't think there is any evidence to point the finger of blame at Beonin. <br /><br />Eochaid<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Moaning<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The Rising Son


created: 2003-06-10 11:54:56
subject: <b>I have a idea</b>
body:
Why don't we start gathering clue who could betray Egwene? Who is against her? The more I reread the chapter what the oaths rod can do I more I think it's Halima who betray Egwene. Why did she kill Kairen if not for the plan?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 09:58:53
subject: <b>supporting Evidence</b>
body:
I get this from Theoryland. It support that it is the Sitter that betray Egwene plan(which I keep telling) for buying more time for their scheme to unit the tower!<br /><br />The Pattern of Sitters That Are Too Young <br /><br />      Before CoT I thought that perhaps the Tower AS were leaving spots open for the returning Sitters who had left. (ie young Sitters, easy to push out). CoT has confirmed this idea- and expanded it. <br /><br />What we know of the pre-split Sitters: <br /><br />Blue Sitters: only w/ Rebels <br /><br />Red Sitters: only in Tower <br /><br />Gray: two in Tower, one with Rebels <br /><br />Yellow: two in Tower, one with Rebels <br /><br />White: two in Tower, one with Rebels <br /><br />Green: two in Tower, one with Rebels <br /><br />Brown: one in Tower, two w/ Rebels <br /><br />In the Tower: Five too young/doesn't fit Sitters- one in Gray, Yellow, White, Green, and Brown. <br /><br />Of the six pre-split Sitters with the Rebels only one stood for war: Janya- of the Brown Ajah! The other five promote negotiation, (w/o first clearing it with Egwene or the Hall)! <br /><br />Conclusion: The AJAH HEADS of the Gray, Yellow, Green, White and Brown, have been plotting to re-unite the Tower and save it from the foolish Blues and Reds. The Ajah heads have not shared their plans with the new Sitters- and maybe not any of the Tower Sitters. The five pre-split Sitters w/ the Rebels are working for the Tower Ajah Heads! Maybe from the very beginning. The Ajah Heads are saving them spots in a re-united Tower Hall- Janya is not part of this conspiracy, and thus no spot has been saved for her. The Ajah Heads w/ the Rebels may also be plotting w/ the Tower Ajah Heads! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 23:36:01
subject: <b>The First Oath</b>
body:
&quot;Under the Light, I swear to speak no word that is not true.&quot; I think. It's been a little while since I looked at the Oaths.


created: 2003-06-13 22:02:24
subject: <b>what is this plan that is talked about???</b>
body:
everyone keeps going on about this plan, but what is it. did i miss something when i read COT? if so, could someone please enlighten me as to this mysterious plan that egwene was going to do. i had thought she was originally going to steal the oath rod to enable the rebels to officially promote people and to remove people from the aging life-cut-in-half thingy. <br />either way, someone please tell me what this plan is.<br /><br />BTA<br />&quot;Free your mind&quot; -Morpheus


created: 2003-06-14 08:47:50
subject: <b>Black Tower Ash`aman</b>
body:
Egwene`s plan was to cuendalarize the chain across the North Harbor while Liane did the same for the South Harbor. Egwene succeeded before she was captured- we don`t yet know about Liane.  The purpose of this was to prevent supplies and new Tower Army recruits to enter Tar Valon.<br /><br /> the purpose of this is to make the Siege successful, and bring about the Tower`s surrender.<br /><br />As for the Oath Rod to free up the sisters who want to retire:  that proposal has only been mentioned to Romanda of the SAS Sitters.  It has not yet been brought before the SAS Hall.<br /><br />Hope this has helped your understanding.<br /><br />WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET A NEW THEORY?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-14 13:15:58
subject: <b>A Cuendillar chain - what a great weapon! Not.</b>
body:
Someone suggested this on the responses to The Tower Ajah theory too. But why should an iron chain have been any less good at blocking the harbour than a cuendillar one? Okay, so cuendillar won't break, but iron's not exactly easily broken either. Yes the OP can do it, but what would be the point? In order for supplies to be able to get into the harbour in normal times, the chain must be able to be let down sufficiently that a ship could sail over it. Why can a cuendillar chain also not be let down?<br /><br />We have not been told anything about cuendillar (e.g. very heavy) except that it's resistant the the OP. Therefore the reason for Egwene cuendillarising the chain must somehow have to do with protecting the chain from OP attack.


created: 2003-06-14 19:17:34
subject: <b>But a Cuendillar blob is a great weapon!</b>
body:
I think you missed the point, its not that a Cuendillar chain would be a better weapon than iron.  Its that as turned into Cuendillar the links fuse and cut off the supply line by sealing the gate.


created: 2003-06-14 21:55:23
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
No, I don't think I did miss the point, or at least not in that way. If you think I did, perhaps you could answer the following:<br /><br />a) tell me where it says that two separate pieces of metal fuse when turned into cuendillar<br /><br />b) explain how a chain with un-fused links is less solid than a chain with fused links<br /><br />c) tell me where it says the chain cannot be slackened to allow ships to enter the harbour<br />


created: 2003-06-15 23:40:33
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
a) tell me where it says that two separate pieces of metal fuse when turned into cuendillar<br /><br />When that novice tries to turn two things into cuendillar seperately, and they melt/fuse and become one<br /><br />b) explain how a chain with un-fused links is less solid than a chain with fused links<br /><br />Seperate links make the chain flexible, once the links are fused, the chain isn't just stronger (which it is since it is cuendillar), it is now a unflexible beam<br /><br />c) tell me where it says the chain cannot be slackened to allow ships to enter the harbour<br /><br />that is the whole point - when they were seperate links, the chain could have been slackened to allow ships to enter. but now that it is one inflexible rod across the harbour, it can no longer be slackened (you need flexible links for that)


created: 2003-06-16 08:33:04
subject: <b>Jordanian</b>
body:
Adrian was right, but he didn`t go far enough.<br /><br />a} CoT HB Pgs 433-434:  Bode and Althyn Conly joined 2 pieces of iron together while trying to see what would happen.<br /><br />b} the chain links are fused together {because they are touching}.<br /><br />c} more importantly, any iron touching the chain-i.e. the mechanism used to raise and lower the chain- is also fused to the chain<br /><br />Ergo- The chain cannot be lowered or raised; the whole thing is one solid mass.<br /><br />Hope this has been helpful for you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-17 18:40:10
subject: <b>Thank you!</b>
body:
Yes, very helpful. I have only read CoT once, and only intend to buy it when in paperback, so only have access to it in the library (which it never is!). I wish everybody was as thoughtful as you to include referenced evidence with their comments. I will make a note to read that bit again!


created: 2003-06-30 03:05:28
subject: <b>Kairen</b>
body:
I think that you forgot one thing:<br />Kairen was supposed to do this in the beginning, but she was killed, with SAIDIN. We all know it was Halima who killed her (and Anaiya and her Warder). <br />But why she killed her? so that Egwene would go instead and be caught.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 23:21:08
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I was surprised that it took so long before anyone mentioned the murders. <br /><br />I believe Halima(thats her name?Chosen anyhow) first killed the first choise of the sisters that were going to do it, then the second and had betrayed the third, but Egwene decided to do it herself just as the mission started, no one knew it was _her_ on that boat.So Halima would problaby be a little angry now..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 20:41:41
subject: <b>how about lelaine?</b>
body:
Lelaine fired quite an interesting insult at Egwene the morning before Eg. was captured, all but stating that the tower rebels had a made a mistake making her amryrlin but that eventually the tower corrects it's mistakes.  As a sitter w/ knowledge of the plan, I would think her high on the list of betrayers.  Her goal, of course, being to embarrass and bring down Eg. thru failure of the plan and install herself as the rebel amyrlin.  Thoughts?<br /><br />The one thing I don't like about my own proposal is that Lelaine is blue and should be loathe to do something that, in the short term at least, helps Elaida and the reds.<br /><br />But that was quite a veiled threat to Eg., was it not...<br /><br />The other two possibilities I like are Delana and Nicola.  But, as said by others, there is no evidence Beonin even knew of the plan, so I think she's out of consideration.


created: 2003-07-14 22:58:29
subject: <b>sitters conspiracy</b>
body:
Upon further reading, I really like a post by Saber on 1/19/03 under &quot;Egwene's Situation&quot; theory.  It seems the most likely possibility.<br /><br />For a full explanation, check out Saber's post.  The gist is some sitters &amp; ajah heads from rebels and tower are conspiring to reunite the tower w/o knowledge of either amyrlin.  To give themselves more time, they prevent the blockade of Tar Valon.  This makes the most sense, along w/ facts like the aes sedai that captures Eg. surrounded by soldiers (probably not black ajah, too public) who gives her sleepy tea instead of shielding her (to prevent aes sedai not in faction from noticing).<br /><br />In second place, I'd put the Nicola theory.  She was noted for spying on sisters, had a knack for piecing together secrets, knew about the cuendillar, disliked Eg., and disappeared at the right time.<br /><br />Much less likely would be the Delana/Halima(/Sheriam) theory, since, as others have pointed out, Halima was getting close to Eg. and would not want to lose her or see her fall from power.<br /><br />Also less likely would be my suggestion of Lelaine, unless she was among the sitter conspiracy.  As a blue, this is unlikely, tho.  The conspiracy seems to be among ajahs other than blue and red.<br /><br />I guess we'll find out in a couple years...


created: 2003-07-14 23:10:19
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I agree w/ Romanda or Lelaine.  They both wanted to be Amyrlin.  Even though they didn't know it was Egwene going, it would have made the sisters mad at Egwene when Leane &amp; Bode got captured, and maybe she wouldn't have been the Amyrlin anymore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-30 16:12:57
subject: <b>Kane</b>
body:
Halima`s 2 killings of Sisters at Dragonmount were:<br /><br />Anaiya {and her warder} in order to prevent Anaiya from verifying to the SAS that Egwene is a true Dreamer, thereby denying the SAS to take any action needed in response to Egwene`s Dreams, such as the Sanchean invasion.<br /><br />Kairen was killed because she was the 2nd strongest to Egwene in the cuendillar weave.  This left it up to Leane &amp; Bode {3rd &amp; 4th skill} to do the deed.  We all know who finally did it, but not the outcome.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-03 05:24:26
subject: <b>who betrayed Egwene</b>
body:
It could be any of the rebel Aes Sedai negotiating with the Tower Aes Sedai who betrayed Egwene. Several of them are sitters in the Hall, and would have been privy to the information. Beonin has been relegated to the back of the bus in negotiations, more likely to fetch wine than to talk to the others. So her possibilities in getting the betrayal information to the tower are actually more limited that some sitters. I don't think Beonin is strong enough to weave a gateway.<br /><br />It also could be Delanna. Halima killed Kairen, who knew of the plan. It is reasonable that Halima would have questioned Kairen extensively before doing away with her. Halima also killed Annaiya, obviously to question her. It seems that the Black Ajah wants to create discord and chaos in the tower, and Egwene's success turning the chains to Cuendillar (excuse spelling please) would actually make it possible for Egwene to reunite the tower, which of course the Black Ajah would not want. So Halima could have ordered Delanna to betray Egwene. <br /><br />So, while it is possible that it is Beonin that betrayed Egwene, there are plenty of other likely suspects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-09 06:57:43
subject: <b>Clearing a few things up.... it was Halima or Nicola</b>
body:
Halima has Delana under her thumb, Delana is in the hall, Egwene told the hall her plan, ergo Halima knew Egwene's plan.<br /><br />Egwene is glad she agreed to Beonin's suggestion - that they start negotiations, only just agreed on minutes before she got off Daishar, got a novice to hold him and walked into the cuindellar making tent - because it gave her time to get Kierin up to speed on the cuindillar making.<br /><br />Egwene went herself because she knows she can do it better, because the law says the Amyrilan cannot put herself in danger unless they're at war, which they are, and mostly becasue she can't stomach sending Bode into danger just after having to let Nicola's &quot;cousins&quot; from the Two Rivers getted flogged for helping her escape, when Egwene should have done something permanent about Nicola ages ago.  All perfectly valid reasons.<br /><br />The plan, and RJ has confirmed this, was to fuse shut the river so no more big ships full of soldiers and supplies can pass through - good siege practice.  Remember, that's what they'd ridden out to look at that morning when Beonin made her suggestion.<br /><br />So, classic sleuthing strategy...<br /><br />Opportunity<br /><br />Halima killed the two AS who could make cuindillar.  Maybe she discounted Bode as a novice.  Maybe Bode and Leane were next.  Maybe those two were the only two mentioned in the hall as contenders, so that's all Delana could pass on.<br /><br />But, why didn't she make sure and kill the other two as well (but then I've always wondered why she didn't kill Chesa along with the other two maids)?  And, how did she contact the BA in the WT?  Particulary with Mesaana there, and the Forsaken being a bit touchy stepping on each other's turf.<br /><br />Motive<br /><br />Tricky one.  We simply don't know enough about the DO's plans, except the spread chaos scheme.  We do know that the 'gars originally received instructions from the big lurk, who was also very recently seen in the WT, so maybe he's been getting around.  But maybe Halima's whole plan from the beginning was to get Egwene strung up in the tower as bait for Rand or something.<br /><br />Nicola<br /><br />Opportunity - we know she's a sneaky little blackmailing bint.  We know she can make cuindillar, so maybe she worked something out in the tent.  We know she left a little while ago, ample time to get to the WT.<br /><br />Motive - She's super greedy to learn more of the power.  The only place to do that is in the tower.  Regardless of her involvement, I'll bet that's where she is.  Her sneaky little mind must think that if she can betray the rebels to Elaida, she'll get rewarded with her own personal AS teachers fawning over her Talent and potential.<br /><br />Either way, the tower conspirators didn't know they were getting Egwene, so they were down there to catch Leane or any old rebel to do nasty things to.<br /><br />We'll know more if we find out if the sisters are BA or not.<br />


created: 2006-04-04 14:57:03
subject: <b>!!!</b>
body:
After KoD.<br /><br />This theory is correct.<br /><br />I eat my words.<br /><br />Great job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 12:47:11
subject:
<b>Ah, a new theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Well, it's a good possibility that the Tinker learn the Song from the Rhuidean rings, since everyone has access to the city now. <br />By the way, the rings are still in Rhuidean, aren't they? Or were they brought away like the other ter'angreal? <br />Can't remember... <br /><br />Nevertheless I still believe that the Amayar will bring the Song. This is mainly their plot relevance. <br /><br />Also I don't think that there is a &quot;Way of Leaf-power&quot;, and that this is the opposide of the TP or balance it. <br />At least in WH, ch. 35, pg.658, it becomes clear that the opposite twin of the TP is the Shadar Logoth evil. <br />The SL power would balance the TP.<br /><br />So I can't agree with your theory but it was good to read one! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-27 13:05:09
subject: <b>Interesting Theory</b>
body:
{QUOTE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />ne could argue that because the Dark One was fully sealed that there was no violence, but I would counter that by saying that the non-existence of war does not imply an non-existence of violence altogether.&quot;{QUOTE}<br /><br />You are correct in that the non-existence of war does not imply a non-existence of violence altogether.  However, the BWB states that <i>crime was almost unknown,</i> and <i>It was a time of idyllic peace,</i> and that everyone <i>had long outgrown any interest in material wealth.</i>  It seems to me that the entire world was united in pacifism, and that the Way of the Leaf, at least before the Bore, would entail little more than vegitarianism.  The Aiel were plenty special in other ways.<br /><br />{QUOTE}I believe that the Dashain Aiel were so respected (most notably by the AS) in the AOL because they possessed a power that was wholly separate from the OP. I believe that not only did the Dashain Aiel have this power, but the Ogier and Nym also had it.{QUOTE}<br /><br />The Aiel were also respected in the AoL for serving the Aes Sedai.  In the BWB it says the Aiel <i>were sworn to a covenant that bound them to serve the Aes Sedai and uphold the &quot;Way of the Leaf&quot;</i>.  It goes on to say that <i>Their loyalty to the covenant and their service</i> earned them tremendous respect.<br /><br />And I do agree that Ogier have a fertility power unrelated the OP in any way.  However, it says in the BWB that the Aes Sedai made <i>living constructs made with and/or able to utilize the OP,</i> and that the Nym were <i>another construct.. sentient beings with the ability to utilize the OP for the benefit of plants and growing things.</i>  I believe the Aiel were something like this.. but more like filters for the OP, which the Nym were using.  I don't think the Aiel themselves could exert any will upon plants.  (I actually wrote a theory on that, but it's rather scatterbrained..)<br /><br />However.. <br /><br />As I read your theory, I couldn't help but be struck by the last bit, and I think you've hit on it!  I don't agree with how you got there, per se, but I agree with your conclusion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Thanks for the theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 13:57:35
subject: <b>I don't know if I wholeheartedly agree, but</b>
body:
to further a point you made in the theory about balance in the Pattern: I view the Tinkers and the Aiel similar to, say, saidar &amp; saidin.  Both are halves of the same thing;both are halves of the One Power, and both the Tinkers and the Aiel come from the same ancestry.  Saidar is more quiet and controlled through submission - and we can all agree that the Tinkers are pretty submissive.  Saidin, on the flip side, is more violent and requires the channeler to struggle for survival.  The Aiel are much more violent in nature and the Waste forces them to survive by any means necessary.  I agree that eventually the Aiel and the Tinkers will HAVE to talk to each other, and I predict it to be quite a scene when they do.  As we all know, the greatest works of the AoL happened when saidar and saidin were used in conjunction; who can say what will happen when the Aiel and the Tinkers get together?  I guess it's RAFO.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 15:03:08
subject: <b>A minor glitch</b>
body:
In your theory, you present the Nym and the Ogier as examples of non-violent creatures with a connection to a power.  If pacifism is required, can Loial still do treesinging?  For that matter, how could Loial make a quarterstaff in the portal stone world in TGH?  I don't think pacifism has any connection to the power of the song.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 16:32:38
subject: <b>as for the glitch</b>
body:
Good point, Geoff.<br /><br />But at the same time, maybe that's the reason why Treesinging is so rare in present-day WoT.  Maybe the violence has driven it out of them.<br /><br />I mean, look at those Ogier the Seanchan cart around.  I'd be surprised if those things sang, period.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 16:55:29
subject: <b>Adding to geoff_mc's comment....</b>
body:
Concerning the pacification of the Ogier in the Age of Legends, we do not know anything of what they did beside Seedsinging. But as we have seen through the eyes of Coumin in the Rhuidean memory ter'angreal, Ogier were soldiers in the War of the Shadow: &quot;The soldiers fascinated him, men and Ogier, the way a colorful poisonous snake might. They killed.&quot; (TSR: 26, The Dedicated) Still more indication of Ogier being not so pacifistic: &quot;A woman was tugging at the man's arm. &quot;Come away, Toma. Come away, and hold your foolish tongue! Do you want the Ogier to come for you?&quot; Suddenly wary, the man let her pull him away into the crowd.&quot; (TSR: 26, The Dedicated) This indicates that the Ogier once served as enforcers of the peace or police in the Age of Legends, and particularly effective ones judging by Toma's reaction.<br /><br />The theory has merit and is quite interesting. Doesn't the Aiel already have toh to the Tuatha'an, even if they don't realize it yet? The warlike Aiel originally evolved to protect and follow (i.e. serve) the Jenn Aiel who were the true Da'shain. The Tinkers, by definition of their Way of the Leaf, were also the true Da'shain--in short, the Tinkers were also Jenn Aiel. By this reasoning, the Aiel have the obligation, or toh, to protect the Tuatha'an from the hostile conditions of the Westlands, especially of Tarmon Gai'don itself. This realization, in addition to the telling of the Song, would be quite momentous in the story. Perhaps this would come about during the upcoming Second Trolloc War.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 17:08:20
subject: <b>The Tinkers and the Aiel</b>
body:
The Aiel do not have toh in the way Gaeran suggested.  The Aiel were protecting the Jenn Aiel who were doing a service to the AS.  The Tinkers abandoned that service, and in so doing abandoned the protection of the Aiel.  The also took some of the wagons resulting in many things being left behind.  In actuality for that reason the Tinkers would have toh to the Jenn, except anyone who doesn't know ji-e-toh does not earn ji or toh and the Jenn no longer exist to accept it.<br /><br />As for the theory, I have long thought the song would be re-discovered by tinkers entering the &quot;Heart of Rhuidean&quot; but I do not think the Seed Song is the song they are looking for.<br /><br />And The rings are still in Rhuidean, they were too big to cart off by wagon.  They have been roped off to keep people from entering without permission though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 18:25:58
subject: <b>why i think the aiel loathe the tinkers</b>
body:
in AoL the Aiel were so respected because of the covenent so when the Tinkers were formed they broke the covenent because they abandoned the job the AS had given them. So at this moment the Aiel who still all followed the Way loathed the tinkers and eventually the reason was lost in the mists of time but the loathing is still there. Instead of remembering the breaking of the covenent now they think they loathe them for their pacificism<br /><br />I don't think that the tinkers could go to Rhuidean and enter the rings and see anything about the trip. I mean some could maybe. But the tinkers have been going around the world for 3000 years recruiting anyone that wanted to join and this made them less and less Aiel. In tEoTW when Perrin joined Raen and the Tinkers he didnt say wow they look like Rand.<br /><br />It doesn't seem likely that any of the Aiel did know the song or we would have heard about it by now. Some of the Aiel that gave up the spear probably went to some tinker camps to learn to be Jenn Aiel.<br /><br />Cool theory but I don't think it could happen that way. I think you are absolutely 100% correct about &quot;the Way&quot; being important for the song to work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I live by the Way of the Leaf<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 19:16:40
subject: <b>Setting the record straight</b>
body:
The &quot;Rings&quot; in Rhuidean, were what the females seeking to become Wise Ones went through, to see the future laid out before them, again and again.<br /><br /> On the other hand, the men seeking to be Clan Chiefs, and women that have already been through the &quot;Rings&quot;, go through the Glass Columns to see the history of the Aiel.<br /><br /> In LoC, when Rand meets with Elder Haman, there is this passage: &quot;As they went, Haman stroked his beard. Humans have not always thought us so safe, you know. Um. Um.&quot; His musing sounded like a huge bumblebee. It is in the old records. Very old. Only fragments, really, but dating from just after-&quot; LoC, From the Stedding, HB, p.317. <br /><br /> Perhaps someday, someone will think to ask the Ogier about some of those ole records. Hopefully Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 21:33:20
subject: <b>Just one tidbit, I thought i'd throw in</b>
body:
I don't know how exactly this fits in, but it does add to the whole pacifism argument of the AoL.<br /><br />The Tinkers are vegetarians and don't kill animals.  I'm not sure we're this originated from, but in EoTW in one of Perrin's PoVs we see this quote.<br /><br />Yes-- good point to mention that the Aiel will need to get together with the Tinkers.<br /><br />However, it is really only a select few Aiel that know about this song anyway.<br /><br />Actually, one of my prime candidates for an exhange of wealth between Aiel and Tinker would be Gaul.<br /><br />Gaul was in the 2 Rivers and interacted with the Tinkers.  Gaul also interacts with Aram.  Gaul is indebted to Perrin, and Perrin has an utter fascination with the Tinkers.  Look back to the earlier books, even Min said something about this, which makes me wonder if she had a viewing.  Kind of his whole axe/hammer debate thing.<br /><br />Gaul is also being pressured by the Wise Ones to return to Rhuidean and become a Clan's Chief.  This could easily be done with help of gateway.<br /><br />If it happens, I believe that the link is Gaul.<br /><br />Gaul will be the stepping stone in my opinion.  Of course, Gaul also has close ties to Loial, which adds even more dimension to this picture.<br /><br />Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-28 02:39:57
subject: <b>Rand went through the rings</b>
body:
and he didn'ty come out signing or telling the tinkers and he doesn't loath them or have toh or have anything the Aiel have to worry about. He heard the song in the memory and all he came out with was an inkling. I'm not sure the tinkers would be able to sing it after just hearing it once.<br /><br />Though who knows.<br /><br />Also, to the guy who said the Tinkers couldn't go through the rings, well Rands mom wasn't aiel and I'm sure the Aiel have interbreed somewhat. Anyway i'm sur there is at least one Tinker who's still aiel enough to go through the rings.<br /><br />Good theory blah I'm tired


created: 2003-06-28 04:05:35
subject: <b>Question...</b>
body:
Apparently we're assuming that only Aiel or those with Aiel lineage could go through the memory ter'angreal/Glass Columns. Moiraine was a wetlander and she went through the Wise Ones' Rhuidean Rings. Could a non-Aiel go through the Columns and see events through the eyes of blood ancestors? Could an Ogier go through the Glass Columns? The Ogier, due to their nature, would love to go through, thereby clarifying records of history.<br /><br />Does everyone who go through the Columns receive dragon tattoos? We know that the Wise Ones go through the ter'angreal without ever getting any tattoo...perhaps it's only males who get it. Imagine a dragon tattoo appearing on the arm of a male Ogier!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 01:26:21
subject: <b>good but no</b>
body:
although it is a good theory the main problem you had was that you didnt address who knew the song from the rings. the only aiel to know of this song were the clan chiefs over the past 3 thousand years and they would not of tried the song because although they know the truth about themselves and the tinkers, they do not go out and preach about it. but singing this song would again reveal to themsleves that they betrayed what their ancestors were


created: 2003-06-29 09:24:40
subject: <b>ARGGGHHHH!</b>
body:
Please, everybody, they are GLASS COLUMNS as Light in the Night pointed out. Not rings. Sorry, just got to let off a little steam.<br /><br />As for what would happen if any non Aiel went into the Columns:<br /><br />1. Possibly they would die, since the Columns are ter'angreal made by the Aes Sedai who accompanied the Jenn Aiel.<br /><br />2. Anyone who went in would see through the eyes of their ancestors at points that connected to the important parts of Aiel history. So for Tinkers they would see the Aiel being given the task of taking the ter'angreal away, but it would probably end with the parting of the Tuatha'an from the Aiel. Maybe if your ancestors had no connection to the history of the Aiel you wouldn't see anything.<br /><br />Those are my two takes on the possibilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 21:11:18
subject: <b>I find it hard to believe</b>
body:
I have trouble believing that a simple seed singing ritual is the song the tinkers are referring to. Since it is known they speak with the Ogier surely they must have been told of it.


created: 2003-07-03 07:05:31
subject: <b>Importance of the Song</b>
body:
Answering the question &quot;is the Seed-Singing ritual the same as the Song?&quot; may give us a better look at the probability of this theory being true. We know the Song is prophesied to bring about the paradise of the Age of Legends, as according to Elyas in tEOtW. His comment is not strait prophecy, so can not be taken literally word for word, but it's a base.<br /><br />The Seed-Singing is a Nym-Ogier-Aiel ritual for growing healthy plants. <br /><br />We also know from the last book  &lt;&lt;spoilers?&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />that there is a great problem developing with foodstores (grain mainly) and weevils. This problem persists even with Keepings. Can I say FAMINE!? With the people having contaminated grain with no natural or magical way of stopping it, they would need a miracle to save them... or at least one miraculously powerful third option. I'll let you decide what all this means.<br /><br />As far as the theory itself, Loial does represent potential holes in the theory, as he is no stranger to long-handled axes. But otherwise, very enlightening.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 19:46:04
subject: <b>the rings wont do squat</b>
body:
The rings show thing that will happen in the future etc. you dont have to be aiel because moraine went through them. But it was not the rings that let you hear the song. It was the forest of glass posts and if memery searves they got broken in the fight with asmodean.


created: 2003-07-07 21:15:07
subject: <b>!</b>
body:
Reffering to why the ogier wouldn't tell anyone about The Song. The Ogier live long, with age comes wisdom.<br />nNow, there is an entire peoples devoted to searching for the song, could you beleive any kind hearted ogier would tell them, well sorry, you will never find teh song because you need Nym to do it and they are all dead, oh! and you'd propbably need a reunion with the Aiel too.<br /><br />I believe the &quot;old Aiel&quot;s ,Nyms and ogiers growing song is The Song. What other song would they be searching for. It is a song in their history, and past and it was very important and celebrated.<br /><br />Oh and i don't know if this has been mentioned here but, &quot;the world of Robert Jordan's the wheel of time&quot; by tereasa (sp?) patterson and robert jordan is a great source of info of aiel history!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My sig got old and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 22:08:43
subject: <b>Excellent Theory!!</b>
body:
But...(okay, so I'm not the MOST read up or in depth person when it comes to the WOT, I'm just VERY VERY into it...) Now that THAT'S off my chest...<br />One thing pointed out a few times on the theory post, on the message board, etc... is that, all though certain things are quite  OBVIOUS to us, the READERS, certain things aren't obvious to the characters, as they don't have an advance copy of the book of their lives (see reference, SPACEBALLS the movie)<br />Anyway...do the Aiel even KNOW that the Tuatha'an are seeking a song?  They obviously loathe each other and all...And as for the Ogier, maybe the song has changed?  It has been pointed out that their are not many singers left, maybe because they don't know the whole song?  Maybe it is against Ogier custom to teach the song to humans?  Dunno, just a thought, please feel free to chop, dice, and julliene at will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />Unreal Shadow<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br />Death comes for us all. <br />We can only chose <br />how to face it <br />when it comes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 02:05:34
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
Thats a very nice theory and it really sticks to the balance of good and evil idea.  Especially since only a few are chosen to use the TP and not many people would be able to sing the song and be effective.  I think this is a great idea for a helping hand the tinkers could give in the Last Battle, but i will be very dissappointed in RJ if this plays a major role in the Last Battle, because lets face it, the tinkers are a bunch of hippies and nobody likes them.  If they can beat the DO and the Dragon can't I'll eat the hardback version of The Fires of Heaven.


created: 2003-07-15 17:09:48
subject: <b>Silly People</b>
body:
Youve Got it all Wrong!! Song is an Acronym. It Stands for Stuff Of Nagging Girls. The Tinkers are looking for all of the wagon Loads of artifacts the Aes Sedai told them to take care of, that they had previously abandoned !!!


created: 2003-07-19 21:06:30
subject: <b>..</b>
body:
mmmm..hhhhhmmm......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> the eternal protecter of the eye of the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> the dark ones black hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />               *o* slayer of shaidar haran *o*</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 21:12:09
subject: <b>My personal and vastly superior opinions</b>
body:
Point A - i don't believe the glass columns would work for a Tuatha'an, because their ancestry would be so interbred (as a result of all the kids who ran away to become Tinkers) that at some point it would branch away from the story of the Jenn Aiel<br /><br />B - I believe that the Seed Singing is the song that the Tinkers seek, but i do not believe that it will bring a return of the AoL. The tinkers branched away from the Jenn as a result a misinterpretation of the stories of their past. i don't have the books with me, but if you go to that period in the columns, you will find something like this: &quot;We will find the Song and make green things grow again&quot; - this is directly after a raid has hit the Jenn, and a bunch of them pack up and leave their responsibility to the Aes Sedai behind.<br /><br />So essentially, the Tinkers search is a result of a misunderstanding as to the implementation of the Song, which seems just a little sad...<br /><br />C - if the Song is the Seed Singing, it won't ever be sung because the Talent for singing is fading among the Ogier, and the last of the Nym is gone.<br />(personally, i do believe we will see a revival of Treesinging;after all, the Aes Sedai are recovering lost Talents, why no the Ogier?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-28 18:34:15
subject: <b>oh wow...</b>
body:
this is good.. real good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />nice work! i couldn't agree more!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-28 19:02:51
subject: <b>just a few points</b>
body:
A few of the things you are taking as fact are assumptions. For instance, when Marillin tell Shiaine &#8220;there is a woman already in the palace&#8221; Shiaine assumes she means an Aes Sedai. She could easily mean a wind finder or one of the kin.<br /><br />Secondly the point &#8220; Vandene was certain the Kin numbered no dark friends is suspect seeing as that until recently the Aes Sedai have even denied the existence of dark friends in the tower. Not to mention the kin&#8217;s fondness for herbs.<br /> <br />And lastly since it is not said when her inflection changed, it could have easily been when she said, &#8220;That was an utter failure unfortunately &#8220; meaning something totally different.<br />


created: 2003-06-28 22:46:18
subject: <b>I've come upon a revelation</b>
body:
I could care less about who killed Adeleas and I'm sick of RJ's millions of minor characters. <br /><br />I also am aware that Adeleas might be more than a minor character, same goes with Sareitha. Perhaps this just shows my limited memory after reading through the 10 books of the series. Can't RJ just rush this thing along and give us information on the more prominent characters?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Jason Dragon<br />&quot;Sa souvraya niende misain ye.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 00:09:19
subject: <b>I swear I heard this before...</b>
body:
Great theory, I swear I read one like it a while back...Although I got to agree with Jasondragon, I really don't care who killed some worthless aes sedai. <br /><br />Theory does make sense though, sense a shield is woven from spirit and spirit is the only thread that can be channeled in your sleep. Also Sareitha would have had to of killed Adeleas as well as Ispan because the link would have alerted the other one. If you remember a link is like an exreme warder bond in that you can read the persons emotions and thoughts extremely well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 03:45:30
subject: <b>Sareitha in the hut with the stake....</b>
body:
Wow...great catch there! Certainly another evidence to bring to the already long murder trial.<br /><br />One question inspired by Psykyle: If a link is indeed like an extreme version of the Warder bond where one feels the emotions and thoughts of linked fellows, wouldn't the shock of a double murder cripple Sareitha, not to mention the drowsiness to be had from a crimsonthorn-drugged Adeleas?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 05:02:39
subject: <b>Yes, very good catch!</b>
body:
Though I was already convinced that Sareitha is the killer, new evidence in this case is always good.<br /><br />Besides, I think you are right that Sareitha's link quote is the first evidence so far that connect her directly with the murder, while the other hints prove that Sareitha is a BA and therefore must be the killer. <br /><br />So, good job!


created: 2003-06-29 05:37:54
subject: <b>A couple of quick questions.</b>
body:
If as you say the link is held even while sleeping, then why didn&#8217;t Vandene know the link was severed when she woke? Secondly from Nynaeve &#8220;they might have remained conscious for hours, not able to move but aware.&#8221;. Now with the sharing of emotion through the link if Adeleas was awake for hours why then did her sister only realize her death when shown?


created: 2003-06-29 09:10:05
subject: <b>Easy: they weren't linked.</b>
body:
Vandene and Adeleas couldn't have been maintaining a link all the way to Caemlyn.  Elayne and Aviendha were wasted just from the link with the Bowl of the Winds, and Rand was wiped out after channeling for a single day in FoH.  Vandene and Adeleas just switched off holding the shield.  Ispan was likely cooperating, knowing she'd probably be killed if she got away and was on her own.  Her captors and guards were the only things keeping her alive.  Vandene and Adeleas likely just linked when they took over the shield, like the Wise Ones in the prologue to PoD.  <br /> The theory is based on the idea that the killer wanted to put Adeleas to sleep without undoing the shield on Ispan.<br /> Crimsonthorn's effect is described as a pain killer, and it would have left the victim paralyzed for a while- &quot;not able to move, but AWARE&quot; -so the fact that a cirlce doesn't dissolve while you sleep is highly irrelevant, as Adeleas was neither asleep nor linked.  Crimsonthorn was used so Ispan would have time &quot;to know who was killing them&quot; and not be able to resist.  They were both paralyzed, so it either crimsonthorn did not render them unable to channel or it did.  In any event, Ispan would have been unable to channel, whether from the crimsonthorn's effects or because Adeleas would not have let the shield go, ESPECIALLY if she found herself suddenly paralyzed by her tea.  Adeleas had her throat cut to keep her from interfering most likely, since she would not have been able to identify her killer with &quot;a brew this strong.&quot;  If the killer was finished with Ispan and Adeleas was still alive, why cut her throat and risk blood on your dress, when she's going to be dead soon anyway, with no way to incriminate you?  Therefore, she must have been killed first, to keep her from interfering with Ispan's execution, and then the Aes Sedai could have shielded Ispan herself.  The amount of saidar needed for a shield would have been expected in the hut, and no one would have paid attention, whereas Adeleas would have responded violently, or given alarm had the Black sister tried to shield or kill her with the Power (she can handle herself in a tight spot; remember her tossing a pickpocket through an upper floor window in LoC?  That was a stealthy attempt to steal a purse, not a frontal assault, so she isn't easily taken by suprise).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 09:57:11
subject: <b>Excellent theory</b>
body:
I, too, have long thought it was Sareitha, but had not put it together with the Bowl of the Winds episode.  This just about seals my conviction.<br /><br />The one problem left unanswered {for me} is:  why did  Vandene not notice the breaking of the Link with her sister?<br /><br />It has been offered that they were not linked, but somewhere in the books is evidence they were weak in the OP.<br /><br />Also, someone said above that they could not maintain the link, day in and day out, and gave the example of the women being exhausted after the BotW`s episode-plus Rand`s exhaustion.<br /><br />.  This is caused by the enormous amount of the OP flowing through the channelers.  <br /><br />Shielding requires only the use of Air, the easiest of the elements to be used!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 11:29:09
subject: <b>a few points</b>
body:
&quot;Shielding requires only the use of Air, the easiest of the elements to be used! &quot;<br /><br />wrong. it's spirit. air may have been used to hold her still though.<br /><br /><br />i'm thinking that the quote is important, it's niglging at me, i just need a re-read to figure it out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 11:38:47
subject: <b>linking</b>
body:
I would just like to point out that linking is not what wears you out from a link. When two people link, the person in control of the link can cause each person in the link to draw on almost as much OP as they possibly can. The book says that Nynavae or Elayne (i dont' remember which one) could feel themselves being pulled almost to the brink of pain (at the bowl of the winds scene)... almost but not quite. In other places when elayne or nynavae channel, and later again with angreals, it mentions that its how much op you are drawing that wears you out... not simply that you are channeling. If a person was only channeling a very small amount of their capacity they wouldn't be tired... so i think it would be very possible to maintain a link for a very long time without tiring... what tires you out is how much you are channeling in a link. I think they could have maintained a link a very long way, perhaps for a very long time on the road to Caemlyn or anywhere else, without even being tired.... the real question is why would they? The only reason they (and i mean anybody) would link would be to access saidin or to increase the strength of one of their weaves.... whats the point in linking if your not going to max out your combined energies? <br />I think Sareitha's comment is interesting as well... it sounds like at one time they tried to get around gentling the males by linking with them. Perhaps this way they felt they could still access saidin, and not worry about him going crazy, so long as they kept him permanently linked (hence her comment about going to sleep). This obviously didn't work, we know from the end of the BIG channeling scene with rand and nynevae that when the females linked with males, they could still feel the taint. So while they could control the weaves and not worry about the man using his powers destructively, it would still affect the females. <br /><br />It sounds also like this form of linking was going to be used in the Trolloc wars, two Aes Sedai could link, one could sleep and one could keep watch with an added portion of the other's energy... They could take turns and not get worn out. A nice battle strategy, and perhaps something Vandene and Adelas tried... Weren't they also the ones that kept channeling at mat's medallion? just a thought, they could have been linked for a while.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 14:35:33
subject: <b>Mussels</b>
body:
Thanks for the correction- it is indeed Spirit!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 16:13:24
subject: <b>They still weren't linked</b>
body:
Drawing on the Power, as a link does, still causes physical fatigue.  There was no need for them to be linked (and thus Vandene wasn't immediately aware of Adeleas' death), so they were not likely to have maintained the link.  Finding herself paralyzed should have stirred SOME distress in Adeleas that might have alerted Vandene if they were joined in a circle.<br /><br />The theory is wrong.  Sorry.  It might be Sareitha, but not because of her verbal slip back in Altara.  Vandene is much more likely, because if she is innocent, Nynaeve and Elayne are the best suspects, from her perspective, and she confides in them right away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 18:40:04
subject: <b>Connoli</b>
body:
My questions about Vandene not feeling the Link broken obviously means that I suspect her, also.<br /><br />But why in the world would you think Nynaeve or Elayne would be her most likely suspects in the murders (if she were innocent}?<br /><br />If she was innocent, why not suspect Sareitha or Coreane {or even Merilille}?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:20:56
subject: <b>hmmmmm</b>
body:
too lazy to comment, too lazy to actually read theory, too lazt to care...... but according to most good job, i guess<br /><br />Always here to supply some randomness<br />TDR314<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 08:49:42
subject: <b>I agree with your conclusion, but not with your evidence</b>
body:
Adeleas and Ispan are both given crimsonthorn. I think it is quite unlikely anyone would be able to channel when given a fatal dose of poison. It is mentioned time and time again you need to concentrate to be able to channel, and I don't think anyone would be able to concentrate that much when their central nervous system is being eaten away (that's how most poisons with the kind of incubation time Nyn mentions would work), so the murderer would not have to worry about Ispans channeling abilities. Secondly, I don't think Adeleas and Vandene were linked. If Vandene is not a Darkfriend, she would have given warning (I cannot believe anyone could sleep through feeling somebody else being murdered), and if she were a DF, she still would have broken the link to save herself the pain.


created: 2003-06-30 18:11:40
subject: <b>What - another go at this theory???</b>
body:
I thought this looked familiar, and in fact Rubbernilly posted exactly the same theory (pretty much word for word) on Theoryland 3 weeks ago. The comments there are much more interesting than on here so far, and I urge any of you interested to read them on:<br /><br />http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&amp;rec=75&amp;theo=1257<br /><br />I think the general drift of the comments there is that Rubbernilly has not proved his arguments, but his postings are so long-winded people lost interest in arguing them. Expect a denial from Rubbernilly a bit further down this page, presumably coupled with a request for me to argue against him. I can't be bothered, and anyone who reads the Theoryland page will realise why - life's too short.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I also think Sareitha killed Adeleas. As the one who is said to have slipped out of the palace at a strategic moment in Caemlyn (i.e. immediately after someone said a Black Ajah AS must slip out of the palace to report to other darkfriends), and who doesn't lose any opportunity to talk up Doilan Mellar (unlike all the other AS present), she is certainly indicated. But I don't think this theory adds anything, even the second time.<br /><br />Ok Rubbernilly, beat me into submission with a pile of wet feathers...


created: 2003-06-30 20:54:36
subject: <b>My reasoning</b>
body:
I still say her sister did it becuase that's what always happens in books.  It isn't like RJ at all to just say: &quot;Okay! Here are 4 people who might have killed Asmodean! We've worked it out and it MUST be one of them becauuuuse:&quot;  <br />I mean, come on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  This is still a book we're talking about, and I don't see any butlers around so I'm blaming Adeleas' sister! XD<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.  -- Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 20:55:36
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
Firstly, the fact that Adeleas was drugged to keep the sheild maintained opens the door for a non channeler to be the killer. I don't believe there is any proof to suggest this is impossible.<br /><br />Secondly, as to why Vandene didn't realise something was up through the link. Perhaps with distance, not only does the strength of the power received diminish, but the corresponding emotions flowing through also diminish. In this way, Vandene could very well miss her sisters reaction to being drugged etc. However, unless I recall incorrectly, Vandene did realise when her sister was killed, that's why she took Elayne and Nynaeve with her to the hut to investigate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 23:18:12
subject: <b>Typed in Haste</b>
body:
There is a theory on this - but Vandene as the killer. Couldn't find it though.<br />The bases of it was:<br />TPOD mentioned that the link remains strong unless one of the sisters walks away a certain distance - 50 metres? I think...maybe.<br />Adeleas would have had to given control of the link (and being linked) to someone she trusted. Only Vandene.<br />If Vandene was part of the link - asleep or no - when she woke she would have noticed that Adeleas was dead - duh. She didn't know when she arrived at the hut. Therefore someone else must have been linked with Adeleas (because they are weak in the OP) and Vandene must have known who. (unless Adeleas used forkroot on Ispan to subdue her)<br />And of course what happened to Moiraine in TGH.<br />Sareitha going missing that day is just way to obvious by RJ (unless this is an RJ ploy to be so obvious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />   )<br />There is more but I can't find the friggin theory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-01 06:00:42
subject: <b>New Evidence?</b>
body:
I posted a theory on 1/15/03, which uses this &quot;new&quot; evidence you describe. I believe it is the one Talmanes is referring to. It's entitled &quot;The Complete Case Against Vandene.&quot;<br /><br /> In it, I present quite a bit more than what is given here. You really needed to go further back in the book to get the whole feeling for this evidence, however. Jordan goes into GREAT detail about Vandene and Adeleas first linking. Elayne describes it as strong enough of a link, that even a Forsaken couldn't break it. He even tells us how far apart they can be before the link becomes useless. Then comes the part from Sareitha about being able to maintain the link while asleep. Then later we have Elayne's reaction when the link is released improperly by the Windfinder after using the Bowl. It was rather shocking, to say the least. The big difference is the people we suspect of being the killer.<br /><br /> One of the hardest things to determine is if they maintained the link. There is scant evidence they did. While they are making their way to Caemlyn, Elayne mentions that Vandene and Adeleas let Ispan go unhooded, if not unshielded. I pointed out that she uses both of their names, to me, showing Elayne is practically thinking of them as one.<br /><br /> On top of that, while the two sisters were living in Tifan Wells, they were curing the peoples' ills there. And all the while, no one in town knew they were Aes Sedai. Vandene even mentions that Lan being there has Jaem, her Warder, remembering that he is more than just a gardener. These bits of information strongly suggests the women had knowledge of herblore, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 09:38:52
subject: <b>Why would the quote be significant?</b>
body:
True, Adeleas wasn't asleep, but Vandene was. If Sareitha knew the link was active even while asleep, she probably knew more. Distance dimishes the effect to feel through the link, with the added lack of consciousness that sleep offers, Vandene might not have realised what she felt from her sister. <br /><br />(What did she feel? Panic? Not likely. Anger? Perhaps. Disappointment? Maybe. Worry?... The point is, none of these feelings would really have been all that strong or unexpected, Adeleas being an AS used to controlling her emotions.)<br /><br />Vandene might have woken up feeling the link gone, suspecting something had happened to Adeleas. Not sure whether she'd been killed, still expecting bad news when she came to the cabin, thus explaining her lack of surprise. She might have taken the girls along as an added precaution, Nyn and El are pretty strong in the OP.<br /><br />So, yes, I think this might indicate Sareitha.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-02 01:07:39
subject: <b>Re: Heiti</b>
body:
I'll assume your response was directed at me. Here is a couple of quotes from the book:<br /><br /> &quot;Without warning, Caire straightened, knuckling her back, and released the Source completely. Column and spiderwab evaporated, and she collapsed as much as sat down, breathing hard. The Bowl turned clear again, but small patches of saidar flashed and crackled around its edges. &quot;It is done, the Light willing,&quot; she said tiredly.<br /><br /> Elayne hardly heard. That was not the way to end a circle. When Caire let go that way, the Power disappeared from every woman simultaneously. Elayne's eyes popped. For one instant, it was as though she stood atop the highest tower in the world, and suddenly the tower wasn't there anymore!<br />TPoD, The Breaking Storm, HB, p.127 &amp; 128.<br /><br /> Here is the other part: &quot;Vandene released them, studying their eyes. The glow still enveloped her, yet Adeleas must have been focusing their combined flows. Vandene could have maintained the shield, once woven, without being able to see it, but had she been the one, it was much likelier that Adeleas would have brought them out. Vandene could have gone several hundred paces before the link began to attenuate- it would not break if she and Adeleas went to opposite corners of the earth, though it would have been useless long before that- but she remained close to the door.&quot; TPoD, A Quiet Place, HB, p.108.<br /><br />  I submit that if they were linked, Vandene would have felt the same thing Elayne felt- The loss of the connection to the One Power. The obvious correct way to end a circle is to release each person from the link BEFORE you release the Source. No matter how far apart they were, surely she would have felt the loss of contact to the Source. Jordan has made it plain over the course of the books as to how it feels to be truely alive while embracing it. Surely she would have registered this even if she was asleep, or half-way around the world.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-02 14:07:14
subject: <b>Adeleas died first - the link is irrelevant</b>
body:
Adeleas' throat was cut, as if she was just in the way.  The target was obviously Ispan.  So once you've administered an incurable poison to someone that will leave her paralyzed and unable to identify you until she dies, carried out the execution you came for, why cut her throat and get blood on your clothing?  Blood SPRAYS from a cut throat, and it's one of the messier wounds.  Obviously the killer wanted her out of the way to be free to act on Ispan without any interfering channeling, the only possible way Adeleas could stop her.<br /><br />As to why Nynaeve and Elayne should be Vandene's main suspects: Nynaeve has greater herbal knowledge than any other sister; Nynaeve and Elayne are both highly unorthodox by Aes Sedai standards, and in Vandene's hearing have denigrated the tests for advancement in the Tower, placed wilders or outsiders over sisters in various situations (like their bargain with Nesta), keep closer counsel with an Aiel wilder than any sisters, threatened to break Tower law to question a Darkfriend, acted recklessly in the gateway closing incident and the testing of the new-found ter'angreal.  Elayne has a female Warder and Nynaeve is married to another woman's Warder.  Furthermore, their discoveries make them suspect as to the source of their knowledge.  Might they be Darkfriends with a Forsaken patron?  A &quot;real&quot; Aes Sedai would see them as a pair of loose cannons and would at least be held as equal suspects to the three sisters who have sworn the Three Oaths.  A Darkfriend who had committed the murder, on the other hand, would know they are innocent, and would be eager to have them on her side and believing her story about the lack of progress in her &quot;investigation,&quot; especially after seeing how willing Elayne was to break the rules for interrogation in the case of Balck Ajah sisters (if Adeleas is dead and Vandene is a suspect who could stand up to Elayne and Nynaeve the way two really experienced sisters could?).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 01:50:49
subject: <b>yes, i have a thought.</b>
body:
i think it was her sister vandene. i don't really feel like going into it on a comment board, but here's a few thoughts, i'm sure u'll find more. <br /><br />when morraine was visiting the 2 sisters in the beginning of the series, a drakaar tried to kill morraine. how'd it know she was there when she didn't tell anyone and Lan would've known had they been followed.<br /><br />she doesn't have a warder.<br /><br />she coul've lead the link on ispan.<br /><br />she wanders around at night mourning and &quot;hunting for darkfriends&quot;<br /><br />at a time like this, her sister was her greatest threat.<br /><br />she could be shiaine(sp?) the darkfriends connection in the tower.<br /><br />bringing the 3 aei sedai's names up with the novices getting credit further throws off the scent.<br /><br />it's often mentioned that a dark friend will kill their own family.<br /><br />RJ likes to trip us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 00:30:01
subject: <b>to Kronik: Vandene does have a Warder</b>
body:
Jaem is her Warder, not Adeleas'<br />She may be the killer however, like you mentioned throwing people off her scent by holding up the other three sisters as suspects.  After all, she's consulting Nynaeve and Elayne, and what proof does she have that they are innocent?  We know because of Elayne's PoV, and Nynaeve being a main character, but Nynaeve is an herb expert, and she doesn't have much respect for Aes Sedai traditions or rules, while Elayne was willing to break Tower law to torture Ispan.  I'd be suspecting them first if I was Vandene, and I'd be most worried about them if I was the killer.  The smart thing for the killer to do is to pretend to get their help tracking down the murderer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-14 02:13:06
subject: <b>Change in inflection...</b>
body:
Nice work! The linking quote does seem to have some meaning in light of the murder. <br /><br />It makes sense that the change in inflection is during the mention of the link remaining even when one is asleep. The punctuation there (assuming the punctuation in your quote is the original) is one of a voice trailing off for a second.<br /><br />Maybe we should note that Elayne's notice of the change in inflection comes after the statement:<br /><i>&quot;there was very little else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact.&quot;</i><br />Could this be a little RJ irony here? Could the change in inflection represent that Sareitha, although AS and making a 'statement of fact', was actually lying here in some way?<br /><br />I'm not sure what the lie would be about, but it would most likely be about the parts that Sareitha admits are unknown to most AS - namely, the dynamics of having a man in the circle. Maybe men cannot stay in a link asleep; maybe the attempt she mentions was not unsuccessful; perhaps the change in inflection represents the fact that the 'attempt' was by the BA.<br /><br />Of course, this still pegs Sareitha as BA, which the other evidence supports anyway. I'm pretty convinced that Sareitha was involved in the murder, regardless of exactly how we understand that speech in PoD.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shloz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Reborn<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Fundamentalist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Soldier of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;No truce with the Shadow. No truce with the Forsaken.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-23 02:24:13
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Right, there is a lot of evidence pointing to Sareitha as BA, but since she DID speak up about the link, the others know about it now, so that does detract from your argument. I'm convinced, but I just thought it would be worth mentioning<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;No one tells us how to be men. We just are&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Perhaps that is why you make such a bad job of it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Let the Dragon ride again upon the winds of Time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-08 23:44:26
subject: <b>I say it's all useless</b>
body:
Question: <br /><br />The other big murder mystery - Ispan and Adeleas. Have you given us sufficient clues in the books that you think we should be able to figure out this one? Any hints on where to look? <br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />No, I haven't given you enough information to solve the murders of Adeleas and Ispan, but they will be solved in Knife of Dreams. How's that for a hint?<br /><br /><br />Off the official WoT series website. Enough with the theories!<br /><br />Logain did it. (Just kidding)


created: 2008-04-06 11:24:25
subject: <b>It was Vandene!!</b>
body:
Old Evidence: <br />Zarya and Kirstian have worked out that it must be X, Y or Z, have they?  Well, gee, thanks, Robert Jordan, I'll completely ignore the highly suspicious Draghkar incident in TGH then, and focus on the suspects you tell me to focus on.  <br />OR, it's a misdirect!  <br /><br />New Evidence: <br />This really doesn't prove anything.  Simply that she knows something that probably a fair amount of older Aes Sedai know.  I mean, I know she *supposes* most sisters don't *remember*, but she does.  So it's reasonable to suppose that sisters as old or older than she (A.K.A. Vandene and Adeleas?) would have a reasonable chance at also remembering this tidbit.  <br /><br />The Murder: <br />Ispan was the target?  How do we know this?  Oh, yes, it was in Elayne's POV that Vandene mused (like she was working out a puzzle) that it must have been Ispan.  <br />Personally, I think whoever did it went a bit over the top: they clearly had a knife, with which to cut Adeleas' throat.  Why was a knife not sufficient for Ispan?  Was it perhaps to throw doubt on the trail?  Clearly, the Darkfriend was the target!  Clearly, no one would want to kill the little old lady, it was just something they had to do, in order to pound a great stake into the Darkfriend.  Clearly, Adeleas was an innocent victim of circumstance.  So please look the other way.  <br /><br />Other Evidence for Sareitha as a Darkfriend: <br />The idea is, we posit a Darkfriend Aes Sedai (which we already knew, because of Vandene's suppositions after her sister was killed)--so RJ is reminding us, just in time for his misdirect--and then we see a sister acting oddly, right away.  <br />My problem with this is: &quot;But there's a woman already in the Palace. She can do what you need. It may take some time to make contact, though.&quot;<br />It may take some time.  That sounds to me like it should take some time.  And in fact, it sounds to me like it should take just enough time for us to forget about that need for a Darkfriend ... <br />I really think it's inconclusive.  <br /><br />I, personally, am convinced that it's Vandene, and suspected her ever since I first read the part where Adeleas was killed.  I suggest Light in the Night's The Complete Case Against Vandene .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you find shade this morning.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 17:12:27
subject: <b>He keeps using the word &quot;explains&quot;</b>
body:
I have NO IDEA why he's using the word &quot;explains&quot; when he could ONLY use the word describing.  And uses a method of describing something that most will find exceedingly opaque.  He revealed NOTHING.  NOT A DARNED THING.  He must've just gotten out of algebra 2 and thought he suddenly understood the world.  This provides NO INSIGHT AT ALL TO ANYTHING THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY UNEXPLAINED.  He mearly decided to describe how phenomena that we've obsverved might look when plotted 2 dimensionally.  How much in the book has transpired 2-dimensionally?  NOTHING.  Well, maybe someone out there really could find no way to relate to phenomena in the book without relating it back to 2D graphing.  I can't believe this &quot;theory&quot; was published.


created: 2003-06-29 17:23:29
subject: <b>Interesting.</b>
body:
Modeling WoT as a second order equation..<br /><br />It's no explanation or source of insight.. and it's rather simplistic.. but it's an interesting approach to thinking of the wheel of time.<br /><br />In reality, the world has many many dimensions, besides time, space, and man-made abstractions such as goodness, evilness, and gender.  It would be difficult to make a standard plot and model of the Wheel, as the greater part of this discussion would be conjecture, and even if one could reach a consensus as to the value of such a plot, it would undoubtedly be inconceivable to the human mind - it would have many, many dimensions.<br /><br />Also, while this is a tempting idea, it fails to take in the quantum nature of RJ's Wheel - as Verin (i think) explained it, the portal stones worlds are the infinite outcomes of every single event that ever happened, sortof a 'branching worlds' multiverse construction.  It would be near impossible to describe and plot such a world.<br /><br />In any case, though, i liked the bit about the bubbles of evil being like point discontinuities <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> so i gave it a yes.<br /><br />And in response to the first post:  All theories don't have to reveal something about WoT.  In fact, if they all did, theory posting in general would be a finite activity.  And no one wants that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And unless a theory has something to do with Taim being Demandred, it doesn't deserve such a severe heckling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 17:29:30
subject: <b>I liked him very much...</b>
body:
Crazy geometry to explain the deeds of the DO. I knew there was something sinister about my Mathematics Professor.<br /><br />But it is really good thinking on your part. The connection between &quot;Chaos&quot; and &quot;Evil&quot; was never explained - until now. And &quot;hot spots&quot; in the equatation might spring a few surprises - even for the Dark One himself. <br />Old thinks, like Perrin's communication with wolfes or Hurin's Sniffing might be such unexpected results.<br /><br />One warning, though. Don't try such theories too often. A few readers might wish you the same fate as Harid Fel's (-:


created: 2003-06-29 17:36:10
subject: <b>i'm not so sure...</b>
body:
there's lots of algebra in the theory, but all you've shown is that by supposition you can create mathematical models that show some of the same properties of the world that exist in Randland (I hate the term, but it's better than the alternative...)<br /><br />i don't see how this 'explains' anything though... you claim it explains ghosts, but how though? the ghosts weren't evil in any way, so why would it be a result of the an increase in the DO's power at a discontinuity? more importantly, if it was an increase in the DO's power, why can't he control it?<br /><br />Again, I don't see how your system allows for ta'veren unless you just keep adding eqns to the system...<br /><br />I know you admit that the theory can't be taken too far, i just feel like the one thing that mathematical models are made for is for the predictive capabilities... in my opinion, the model you're making is without this goal in mind... partly, I think it's because your variables are both immeasurable (and hence the model is untestable), but more because every aspect of the theory is based on suppositions that conform to data, instead of the data focusing your theory...<br /><br />sorry, no more ranting...<br /><br />I do want to thank you for the time you took writing the theory. Well done. It was a nice piece of work to think over.<br /><br />Something you might want to consider in light of your mathematical creativity is the concepts of good and evil as physical quantities, with (possibly) some sort of conservation laws. While I understand that I did say those were immeasurable, there are finite points of initial conditions, final conditions and general trends that can be utilized for analysis (ie. drill bore = release of evil, since it was nonexistent (more or less) before... cover bore = create location of constant evil, while some evil is left out in the world to diffuse... opening of bore = full evil allowed to diffuse through world... or something, i don't know...)<br /><br />A mathematical/physics analysis of the nature of WoT I hope has the possibility of being fruitful, so I'm glad someone is working on it.


created: 2003-06-29 18:33:11
subject: <b>Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.</b>
body:
Math is indeed evil.<br /><br />That WAS the point you were trying to make, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:39:10
subject: <b>Except...</b>
body:
I don't think Saidin and Saidar are opposites. As so often told to us, they are essentially the same force, with different properties.<br /><br />A much more realistic picture would be painted if Saidin and Saidar are both forces for the good (which can be used for evil since the Creator gives free will), and their opposite force is the True Power (otherwise what is the opposite of the True Power?). Of course this messes up all of your equations.<br /><br />Finally you missed one point that you actually stated - &quot;It goes without saying that the basis for the Aes Sedai symbol is the Yin and Yang, minus the small dots.&quot; The small dots also represent that in every evil there is some good, and in every good there is some evil. Yin-Yang were designed living in the real world, where there is no ultimate good or ultimate evil. In the WoT, where there is an ulitmate good (Creator) and evil (Dark One), there is no reason why good can't actually win, once the abberation (evil) is removed (ie like every other fantasty novel ever written).


created: 2003-06-29 19:59:37
subject: <b>actually</b>
body:
although i have no idea what they mean in real life (other than balance), RJ has said that the absence of the little dots is supposed to symbolize the huge divide between men and women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 20:41:02
subject: <b>too much time on your hands</b>
body:
i think taht you spend too much time thinking about wot. I dont think Rj put any math into the books<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefire78 <br /> warder to Min farshaw<br />and Danea sedai and nynaeve mandragon<br /><br />ITS ONLY A FLESHWOUND!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 00:47:18
subject: <b>good work</b>
body:
this took alot of work and i think you are getting too much crap for it. it does provide a very different perspective to look at the pattern. i also want to add, i forget exactly what you called it but the burst of negativeness that released bubbles of evil you said, could also explain the release of a forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 03:53:36
subject: <b>your knowledge of &quot;Chinese mysticism&quot; is incredible but...</b>
body:
&quot;In East Asian thought, yin and yang are the two complementary forces or principles that make up all aspects and phenomena of life. Yin is earth, female, dark, passive, and absorbing; it is present in even numbers and in valleys and streams, and is represented by the tiger, the color orange, and a broken line. Yang is heaven, male, light, active, and penetrating; it is present in odd numbers and mountains, and is represented by the dragon, the color azure, and an unbroken line. Together they express the interdependence of opposites.&quot; <br /><br />You were close on the &quot;opposites&quot; track, but Good and Evil?I don't think so... (a difference in the yin-yang from the ASotAS most people don notice is that in the yin-yang black=yin/female, and white=yang/male)<br /><br />&quot;This theory is heavy on the philosophy of the WOT and may be as dense as some of Fel's books are to Rand.&quot;<br /><br />obviously not very heavy on Han philosophy...<br />and I think it would only be dense to someone who hasn't completed their freshmen year in high school.


created: 2003-06-30 06:47:42
subject: <b>So are you really trying to say that.,...</b>
body:
so far we havent seen much evil which is creating more imbalance in the equation and the imbalance is favouring the good side but when it comes to Tarmon Gaidon because there has been so much imbalance towards the good side we'll see a HUGE HUGE HUGE mass of baddies and choas and success for the dark side ?<br /><br />Thats where i thought you were going until you finished and hadnt actually stated something!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 07:00:34
subject: <b>saidar and saidan</b>
body:
with saidar and saidan i dont think it would be accurate to label each the opposite of the other or that they are the same with different properties. while in the theory it was mentioned that saidar and saidan was yin and yang but without abit of each in the other. saidar and saidan are not like yin and yang but share the same  interdependency towards each other. although its probably not a good idea to name other fantasy authors however terry goodkind's sowrd of truth series has quite an indepth statement about &quot;opposites&quot;. also in raymond e. feist's midkemia series it also explains this &quot;force&quot; which they can use. this force is similar to that of saidar/saidan. each person with this force can then use it for good or evil as with WOT we have the good people and the darkfriends etc. this is why it is not accurate to label saidar and saidan opposites of each other as they are both forces which can be used for good and evil and yet each can only be used by the sex of the person (ie females can only touch saidan etc). while they may have opposite properties such as controlling and using of each they are only forces within the world or each worlds which can be used for the persons own judgement


created: 2003-06-30 13:17:46
subject: <b>hrmm</b>
body:
ok, before I get started, I just want to say, I DO appreciate the thought you put into this theory.<br /><br />allrighty-<br />First, you have to understand that, as mentioned in above posts, these models you created are immesurable and untestable, so simply serve as an excisting model, rather than a model of growth.  <br />Secondly, math was not something discovered, so, as previously mentioned, this simply is just a model, or a pattern.  When exploring the new world, someone did not simply turn over a rock and proclaim *in most proper of british accents*  &quot;Oh my, Trevor, it seems I've found calculus.  Put this in the carry bag, my collegues back home will be thrilled.&quot; So, though you may have created a system to project certain aspects of the WoT universe, it is hard to try and apply it as a working model. In other words, there was no pre-exsisting system in mathematics to be discovered, but one created.  <br /><br />overall, though, good work<br /><br />kazadorm blightsbane<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of all that is written, I love only that which is written in blood.  Write with blood, and you will discover that blood is spirit.<br /><br />It is not easy to understand the blood of another.  I hate the reading idler.  -Nietzsche</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 18:33:04
subject: <b>Congrats <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This was my second favourite of the candidates for the 1000th theory post and I think that most of the other admins would agree.  Very original and it appeals to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 21:19:53
subject: <b>Trying to confuse people doesn't make a good theory</b>
body:
Using big words, or in this case, equations doesn't make a theory any better. This theory has some serious holes and as such should at least have been cleaned up, if not discarded. For example, if the portal stones worlds contain worlds described by all possible equations, the should be one for x=3 for example. However in this world there is no evil, as it never contains a value where x is negative, therefore the DO cannot be imprisoned in such a world, which we know must be the case, thus this world cannot exist. <br /><br />Interesting idea, but I don't think it was very well written. But maybe I'm just bitter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 07:45:13
subject: <b>words and Math the two don't go well together</b>
body:
It's to complicated for me to understand. So I doesn't read it all. To confuse. but it is a great theory! That you came something like that is amazing!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 13:30:49
subject: <b>Hmmmm....</b>
body:
I'm with rahien din; while it's an interesting peice, a plaear representation is oversimplistic.  <br /><br />You should read Heinlein's &quot;Number of the Beast&quot; it goes into 6+ dimentional thinking of the same line.  It's also the way {I}I{/I} seee the WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 14:28:52
subject: <b>Predicting the past</b>
body:
I want to address two particularly lucid critiques of my theory, primarily because I agree with them.<br /><br />1)  RJ is not a two-dimensional thinker.<br /><br />Absolutely true.  My intent in cobbling this model together was not to imply anything else.  Rather, it was an attempt to characterize by analogy what could be happening in WOT.  If I had the time (and more than a year or two of college multivariable diffy-q) I would love to plot out every dimension and textured nuance of Randland.  I originally set out to describe a model in 3+ dimensions with reference to parametric functions, but, I confess, I didn't know enough to do.  However, polar coordinates deployed in a multi-dimensional framework could be used to explain a great number of things, including the Wheel itself.  Just as (Pi/4, 1) = (9*Pi/4, 1), so to does ages fade completely before they come again.  Perhaps the DO wants to break us out of polar coordinates by destroying the wheel (or perhaps he just got sick of complex math and wanted something simpler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ).  <br /><br />That brings me to the second critique:<br /><br />2) This model doesn't do a darn thing.<br /><br />Also quite true.  I don't even want to try to model something to predict the future, either in WOT or in RJ's fevered head.  Everyone who has tried that has gotten burned.  I was more interested in creating a model that could, so to speak, predict the past.  That is, I wanted to find some coherent way to order the happenings heretofore.  Can it be used to predict anything?  Do so at your own peril.  I'm more interested in developing it as the series progresses, changing and discarding as necessary, in the hopes of creating a tidy way of analyzing everything that has happened.  I won't say I did a complete and thorough job - I'm no literary analyst.  Besides, trying to order the mind along mathematical principles is best left to Asimov's Second Foundation.  If I could do that, well, we wouldn't need to RAFO.<br /><br />In short, I agree with those of you who say I didn't accomplish anything.  I wasn't trying to do something new, merely find a different way of looking at something old.  A lot of the comments made were terrific in terms of suggesting enhancements and alterations.  When I get time, I'm going to love looking at them.  I just want to concentrate on passing Occam's razor and avoid creating fanciful epicycles to explain myself.<br /><br /><br />TFK<br /><br /><br />PS - Someone asked how I derived the appearance of ghosts from the model.  Everyone in the books keeps talking about barriers breaking down and old things coming again.  The way I figure it, the more chaos (which is not evil, but the degree of oscillation between equations) there is, the more likely it is that weird things happen.  Which, incidentally, is why I think the DO wants/wanted chaos.  If you're in prison, an earthquake might be unpredictable, but it just might shake things loose and allow you to escape, or at least influence the weather.  The same would happen if equations shake things up.  And who knows?  Maybe the bending and twisting caused by ta'avern can be likened to a rapid oscillation between equations.


created: 2003-07-01 14:49:10
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Wow.  That was one of the most incredible theories I have ever read.  I have never before thought of using mathematics to that degree to explain the world of wot.  Such enlightment is often difficult to find.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 20:08:38
subject: <b>Very good beginning...</b>
body:
Intresting approach, and unlike most of the other posers, it doesn't take much math to understand the basal nature--<br /><br />But what it doesn't explain is how you can use the cartesian system to achieve the DO's goal.  Lemme go slow...<br /><br />instead of the simple number line...think of a scale.  okay, for ever &quot;evil&quot; action, it weighs towards the dark one, and good, opposite.  Simple--would almost explain the Cuelliander &lt;sp?&gt; breaking in some instances, sometimes not, and sometimes weakining.<br /><br />Now, along those line, think of a plate, balanced on a central point...anything you put on it will tip it along a specific direction, and the more acts of the world en masse would make it tilts in a certain direction.  this would be your Cartesian axes.  Now, while your y=-x&#178; can explain that if the DO nudges reality in that perspective, then there are still two paths--away from or towards him, it just throws the balance askew, since if &quot;-&quot; equals towards the dark one, what you have then is 4 quadrants--one full good, one full bad, and two neutral.  Well, any time X is positive in that scenario, Y may not be positive, but if X is good, and Y is bad, then it cancels to neutrality.<br /><br />For the non-math geeks, this means that no matter how hard the DO is pulling to tip the balance, a pull in any other direction shifts the balance from the DO. (and this forum doesn't allaow for a whiteboard).  Further, the more you throw in, the less of a chance the D.O. has...<br /><br />think now in 3 dimensions.  i won't do the math, but you have 8 different outcomes, 4 &quot;neutral&quot; outcomes, one &quot;all good&quot; and one &quot;all bad&quot;.  one could then realize that in order for the Lord of Chaos to rule, the effects of what's going on in the universe when all balances et all in this 3-axis scenario must put the overall &quot;weight point&quot; (again, think of a scale) in the &quot;all bad&quot; octant.  In the 1-axis scenario, the DO would have a 50% chance.  in the 2-axis, a 25% chance, in the 3-axis scenario, 12.5% chance.<br /><br />i would go onto 4 and beyond, but i'll leave the visualizations up to Stephen Hawking.  The point is, for any outcome to be favorable in a bipolar system, like WOT, the more variables and &quot;judgement axes&quot; you have, the less likely the outcome is for either side.<br /><br />Granted, although RJ may not have been thinking fo the &quot;mathematical&quot; aspects, he already did this at the time of madness--it ended in a grey area.  The DO wasn't free, but the Light didn't win, either.<br /><br />anyhow, something to ponder<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When Day and Dream unite the end is near...<br />...you better be prepared.<br /><br />~Blind Guardian</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 20:49:21
subject: <b>Chaos</b>
body:
When the status quo is law, order, and ovewhelming good, evil will always want chaos. Chaos, quite simply, is the best way of changing the current situation. If the Dark One ruled, he would no longer want chaos, as it would give a chance for good to win it back, instead he would want order to keep his new status quo. You don't need maths when you have logic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> *j/k*


created: 2003-07-04 12:00:03
subject: <b>Hmm, don't understand much math...</b>
body:
but nevertheless it was quite entertaining how you presented your theory. Funny! <br /><br />But really I believe that the DO wants chaos to increase simply because it's much easier for him to win when whole Randland is in chaos:<br />Nobody trusts anybody, men fight against men, riots, war, hunger, illnesses, bad weather etc. <br />That means not much resistance to the Shadow. <br /> <br />On the other hand, Rand's task is it to gather all nations and all people, bring order in the mess so that a united mankind has a chance to fight togehter against the DO and his armies at TG.<br /><br />Finally note that even in the chaos the Shadow wants some order. The DO only wants the chaos <i> he </i> spreads, and which fits with his plan. <br />E.g. Moridin wants to kill Fain because his acts are too unpredictable although Fain of course increases the chaos (Wh, ch.13). <br /><br />Another example can be found in ACoS, ch.20, where the watcher (Moridin) says that he let the plot which Sammael run &quot;for now&quot;, though it was something unexpected, and he says that &quot;small increases of the chaos could be every bit as important as large&quot;. <br /><br />That means that the DO (and I'm sure Moridin is the only Forsaken who knows his plan) wants the chaos but not at all cost, if it doesn't fit in his plan (then Moridin had certainly killed Sevanna and the other Wise Ones).


created: 2003-07-06 20:08:25
subject: <b>One Question</b>
body:
I have one thing that may disrupt the whole theory, then again it may be the rambalings of an old tinker.  If the Creator and the DO are = in power, then how is it that the DO was imprisoned?  If the Creator is the only creator then is not the world that he creats good, considering that he is the imbodyment of good.  He is required to creat the best possible world because he is good.  So What if he was not the only creator?  If the DO had a hand in creation then it would alow for his involvment in the world.  The one called the Creator by the caracters has chosen a different path to affect the world.  He is not alowed to interfear with the world becaues he gave up that right in imprisoning the DO, so the DO still has the possiblity of affecting the world where the Creator does not.  the Creator imprisond the DO because this was the Best possible world, forfiting his action in the world.  So the axis is now not x=y because one has the ablity to dirictly attack the world (imprisoned as of yet though), where as the other does not.  x therefore is not 0. What it is i do not know, but the song will be sung.


created: 2003-07-07 14:40:48
subject: <b>hmmmmmm...</b>
body:
if you've never studied statistics, you really should...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 01:32:46
subject: <b>Good God!</b>
body:
We've all gone insane! RJ has handed us a flavorful madness pill and we've all happily gobbled it down! RJ is a sadist, and we are all his meek and adoring masochists.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 12:07:26
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
That was ok i guess. My question is &quot;Was anybody doubting that the ghosts or bubbles of evil had to do with the DO gaining influence?&quot;. Also, of course the DO likes chaos, chaos is associated with evil while not the same thing they are closely related. I congratulate you on your skills of turning RJ's world into a complex series of math eqautions, but honestly your theory was more boring than Crossroads of Twilight.  The worst part is that you didn't explain anything at all, you just made an analogy, and a boring one at that.  If the DO or Moridin use a calculator Ter'angreal in the 11th book i'll apoligize for not taking your theory seriously but i don't see that happening.


created: 2003-07-13 21:29:11
subject: <b>Just think what the characters could do...</b>
body:
If they had a TI-160X Graphing calculator and a rudimentary knowledge of Freshmen Algebra.<br /><br />Will this theory be revised when you study Calculus?  Will we get to see another freakin dissertation on what the Z axis stands for?  How about limits? <br /><br />Jeez, I hate math people.


created: 2003-07-22 02:38:19
subject: <b>very good</b>
body:
alot of ppl ppl are saying, &quot;what about this, what about this....&quot;. the author did mention the possibilities of other axis's (infinite really) and this 2D setup is just a platform. like someone above said, too much to comprehend. but it gives a good mental picture to attach to the randland universe other then and massive wagon wheel with alot of spokes. saidin and saidar ARE opposites, but on the SAME &quot;axis&quot;. and the equation doesn't say the dark is equal to the creatr, the light is(otherwise it would be impossible for the DO to win). the Creator only made the universe and light and dark, etc. not part of the war himself. i like the bubbles of evil and the ghosts part. very good.<br /><br />and to Balefire78: there's no such thing as spending too much time thinking of WOT! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 03:01:23
subject: <b>Wheel Rotation = Sine Wave?</b>
body:
I was thinking, about halfway through your theory...if we were plotting each point on a graph of good/evil (on the y axis) with time on the x axis, a wheel's motion would be turned into a sine wave depicting a balance (over time) of good and evil, with temporary peaks of each side.  Hmm?


created: 2003-07-28 06:35:28
subject: <b>Bloody Flaming Light</b>
body:
I feel humbled and awed by the amount of thought put into that.  I thought I was a zealot (and I have the Aes Sedai symbol tattooed on my arm!).  But...well.....damn.<br />Anyways, yeah, nothing really explained as far as theory, but that was an amazing use of math to describe the mechanics of the Wheel.  Keep it up, maybe next you can tackle Tel'Aran'Rhiod and how it works.<br /><br /><br />-The mark of the Raven is forever.<br />- Killing a Seeker was frowned upon.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-16 16:31:18
subject: <b>just a simple math question</b>
body:
am i totally reading it wrong or are you saying y = x ^2 when x = 0 is equal to infinity....don't you mean do i have the equation backwards and you are looking for y = 1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />x^2) ?


created: 2004-07-10 12:06:38
subject: <b>Bravo.</b>
body:
I absolutely loved and enjoyed your theory.  I avidly look forward to your next update <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Although you didn't mention quantum I noticed your theory doesn't exclude it - in fact picturing a possible universe as an equation is perfectly valid and fits well with current quantum theory.  <br /><br />In response to the person who mentioned certain instances (values of variables) being impossible; it is mentioned several times in the books how some portal worlds are much less likely than others, some being hardly likely at all.<br /><br />To those who natter about the difference between the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai and the modern Yin/Yang symbol; if you look it up there are actually many ways to symbolise the Yin/Yang relationship - some of these symbols depicting *three* curved teardrops as opposed to two.  The omission of the 'dots' is practically meaningless (I say practically because RJ actually mentions a reason).<br /><br />I also feel I have to remind some people that The One Power is the Light, or the essence of the Light - the Creator's own power while the True Power is the Dark or the essence of the Dark - the Dark One's own power.  The True Power is divided in two that the two halves might, in pushing against each other, work with each other.  <br /><br />In conclusion I dont feel there's anything wrong with using a mathematical model to 'graph' the WoT, however simply.  I'm sure this model will be usefull in postulating the next step and helping us to a greater understanding of what lies beneath.  <br />Even if RJ had not come up with this himself, it makes such a theory no less valid.  The WoT is based on our world, it's not necessarily just the bones of a fantasy we are investigating, but the bones of our universe.<br /><br />Well done that man.<br />                             - Dovien Gleeman


created: 2004-12-07 15:26:17
subject: <b>blood and bloody ashes....</b>
body:
i must say that that is a lot of long and silly words in a small space but i understood (most of) it against the odds. as far as i can see you only had one real problem (other than using words most  professors of math would have problems with <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />). that problem is what was the point you werre proving?<br />(p.s. this is not a sarcastic jibe, i am a teenageer not an adult and am ever so slightly confused with all this maths stuff. if i have missed the point please enlighten me.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 13:33:13
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I wouldn't call this a mathematical model. More like a mathematical analogy. I really don't see how this predicts or explains things like bubbles of evil. Saying the Dark One can change the equation in his favor is just a way of saying he can affect things. I don't think anything is gained by this way of looking at things.


created: 2003-06-30 09:59:44
subject: <b>first....</b>
body:
and not friggin bad for a 1000th post. i gotta re-read on this one....<br /><br /><br />i like the bell's idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 10:18:15
subject: <b>The bells</b>
body:
I recall something about multiple bells in the Finn sequence in TSR as well.  I will look through that passage shortly, because I think we need to compare the 2 first and make sure multiple bells were not played there as well.<br /><br />Great theory, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 10:25:10
subject: <b>Excellent Theory</b>
body:
Green Gaidin, congratulations!!!  You`re #1000.<br /><br />It looks like I`m cthe first, since there was no &quot;read other&quot; posting.<br /><br />This makes for another Theory to ponder while re-reading the books.<br /><br />You`re reasoning is impeccable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 10:26:25
subject: <b>Looked at TSR</b>
body:
this theory is clear for take-off.  There are no bells in the Rhuidean Finnland ter'angreal.<br /><br />I think you are probably right.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 10:34:47
subject: <b>The 5th person</b>
body:
If there is such a person, would, without a doubt, be Berelain.<br /><br />Berelain would obviously know of this ter'angreal, and based on her history she would probably feel obligated to enter it.<br /><br />Another point in her favor is her sudden attachment to Perrin, and the fact that sticks like him like glue for the rest of the series.<br /><br />Something in the rings?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 10:49:59
subject: <b>Only one flaw i see.</b>
body:
You say Nyn and Egwene would not use workmen to move things they would use the power. I disagree, they were in a room with angreal sa angreal and ter angreal. I dont think they would use the power so recklessly, when any number of items could have been activated by a stray weave. besides that well done.


created: 2003-06-30 10:53:13
subject: <b>You know matrimony, I think you may be right</b>
body:
I could easily see Berelain going through there, as she would CERTAINLY know of it.  Hmmmm...I think I need to reread some of the sections mentioning berelain after the door incident...<br /><br />Also, fabulous job with the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 12:07:15
subject: <b>by the way</b>
body:
Egwene does know about the Doorway to Finn. She said Moraine told her about it when she told Mat about the Doorway. I also think it is Berelain and not Rhuarc went through the Doorway. She has reasons en he not.<br /><br />Great thinking on your part!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 12:18:12
subject: <b>more on Berelain</b>
body:
Incidentally, the doorways were used in the chapter right after the one in which Rhuarc breaks up the fight between Faile and Berelain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 12:35:30
subject: <b>Great theory GG!</b>
body:
I'd never considered this once before. Pretty shrewd of you to ask RJ about it, too. And I like his answer...I bet it gave you some sort of hint about your theory's correctness.<br /><br />I'm not sure if we can eliminate Thom as being the other follower only because the bootprints weren't dragging. A limp doesn't mean he *has to* drag his feet, right?<br /><br />Thom's only PoV after this incident came in chap. 17 of TSR, so it's possible he just may not have remarked upon the event. (Possible, yes, but you'd think he would, I suppose.)<br /><br />He was obviously in the Stone at the same time and I think could be as likely a candidate as Rhuarc.<br /><br />But there's really no way to tell.<br /><br />Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 13:08:54
subject: <b>I think its NOT Berelain</b>
body:
I seem to recall it being remarked that the reason Berelain gave up the doorway was that she had already gone through it.  If you'll recall, you may only enter the doorway and have your questions answered once in a lifetime.  So it couldnt have been Berelain.


created: 2003-06-30 13:13:21
subject: <b>I thought it was her father/mother</b>
body:
or whoever ruled Mayenne before her that gave the doorway to Tear.  Of course it's been a while and I don't have my books with me, so I'm probably off base...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 13:13:53
subject: <b>Very cool</b>
body:
I actually think that it was one of her ancestors that gave the Door away because he had already used it. I think Berelain is a good possibility. Great theory!


created: 2003-06-30 13:32:29
subject: <b>He is Another</b>
body:
Notice how one of the Finn says &quot;He is another.&quot;  If they said Mat is &quot;another&quot; that implies he was not the first one into the doorway.  Maybe I don't have the order right, but I was just reading from your quotes.  Also, I always assumed the bells were a warning.  Mostly saying &quot;hey morons, there are too many people in this place and if you're not careful the link between the worlds will be destroyed&quot;  The bells become more and more frenzied and finaly the finn, reluctantly, have no choice but to throw them out.  Also, Egwene and Nynaeve would NOT channel the power in the room.  There is a quote from Elayne earlier in the book saying her lamp went out and she was too afraid to even channel enough of the power to re light her lamp so she stumbled around in the dark.  <br /><br />However, with RJ's response you may have something here!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 13:49:18
subject: <b>You people are fast...</b>
body:
I was about to suggest the Berelain thing.<br /><br />Also one thing contra-Rhuarc: don't the Aiel wear something moccassin-like? I remember &quot;soft-soled boots&quot; from somewhere. These footprints would not be confused with your normal boots. <br /><br />That not counting that Rhuarc has WAY too much sense to rush into some unknown wetlander Aes Sedai thing.


created: 2003-06-30 14:00:06
subject: <b>Smooth GG!</b>
body:
A long time in the making but well worth the wait.  I agree whole heartedly of course.  Berelain also looks as good as any.  The usual suspects.<br /><br />Green Gaidin is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 14:04:52
subject: <b>Thank you very much everybody! The 1000th theory is MINE!</b>
body:
This theory has (so far) gotten such a positive response and I couldn't be happier to be the author of the 1000th theory here!<br /><br />Anyway, to matrimony cauthon:<br /><br />Berelain was my first thought for the other person also, but the boots seems to just be too obvious of a clue to me. That said, Mat wouldn't notice smaller footsteps in the room because of Nynaeve and Egwene's footsteps already. Also, on second thought, Rhuarc wouldn't sweep the steps going downward: that seems like something that (not trying to be sexist here) a woman would do because men are too dumb to see such an obvious solution. Anyway, Berelain is definetely a possibility.<br /><br />to other people:<br /><br />GG's hand is clenching, trying not to slap himself. Of COURSE they wouldn't have used the Power in a room full of ter'angreal/angreal. Me stupid. Anyway, I still see the bootmarks as a clue, one way or the other. What could they mean?<br /><br />Yay me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 15:18:47
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
me likey...i can't wait until rj clears up these issues...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 15:18:53
subject: <b>perhaps this will help?</b>
body:
A quote from the same chapter into the Doorway. Perhaps it was Rand who went into the Door before Mat?<br /><br />&quot;A boot appeared, backing out of the twisted stone doorway, followed by the rest of Rand, with that fiery<br />sword in his hands. The blade vanished as he stepped clear, and he heaved a sigh of relief. Even in the dim light,<br />Mat could see he was troubled, though. He gave a start when he saw Mat.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 15:25:06
subject: <b>You can't count out any df</b>
body:
questios &quot;related&quot; to the shadow are bad.  So they (being any of the forsaken) could have asked about something else, so if it was lanfear, she could have asked about rand's next move, and that's why she and asmodean were in the waste so quick.  Also, Lanfear and Moiraine fell through the doorway from the waste, which gives you what you want at a price, the one in Tear answers your questions.  Good theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 15:32:31
subject: <b>Corridor, Not Stairway</b>
body:
Just a minor correction here and further corroborating evidence.<br /><br />tSR, pb, pg247<br />Mat was walking a long corridor that had been swept, with the room he was looking for at the end.<br /><br />same book, pg 248<br />Inside the room  &quot;--footsteps crisscrossed the floor, some of them from boots,---&quot;<br /><br />same book, pg 250<br />&quot;Sometimes he caught a flicker of motion out of the corner of his eye. Only, however quickly he turned, there was never anyone there.&quot;  <br /><br />Could this be the booted man? <br /><br />Re:  The &quot;moufnful ring&quot;,  could this possibly be caused by LANFEAR?  She had been in the Stone a little earlier, and wouldn`t a Forsaken produce a mournful ring as she entered?  Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 15:55:52
subject: <b>replies:</b>
body:
darien lakenight: No, that could not be Rand for the simple reason that the Finns reacted the same way to the first bell as they did for Mat's presence. IOW, they are addicted to ta'varen and they flipped out at the first bell. Rand went in just after Mat.<br /><br />jofraz: Well, I suppose that one could view the mournful ring as Lanfear, but why would the bell ring mourfully for her? After all, there is nothing about her that gives her away as a Forsaken: the black cords are only on men to protect from the taint, so the finns would not recognize her as a df. No, I think it most likely that the bell would be from someone leaving.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 16:33:29
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
I definitely like this theory, I must say.  It has never even occurred to me that someone else might have gone in!  I do think, though, that Rand went in <i>before</i> Mat, and it's his bootprints on the floor.  The &quot;another one&quot; comment, I interpret as being another <i>ta'veren</i>, and unless Perrin snuck in, Rand must have gone first.<br /><br />Berelain strikes me as the most obvious choice for others in Finnland.  As the First of Mayene, she probably feels it's both her right and her duty to go in there.  The Firsts used the doorway to help solve difficult problems facing the country, and I think the Dragon Reborn taking Tear probably qualifies.  Which, of course, leaves us with the question of what she asked.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that her sudden attachment to Perrin stems directly from some vague answer she got in the doorway.<br /><br />As for who else could be in there ... well, Lan seems like a better candidate than Rhuarc, but I still can't really see Lan going in there for his own purposes.  A man who is so determined to let the past die probably doesn't want to know too much about the future.


created: 2003-06-30 16:48:05
subject: <b>Draelin</b>
body:
It is an outside possibility that Rand went in before Mat, but the possibility is VERY remote. If that were true, then who was coming out with the mournful bell? Was there someone ELSE in there? That's going a bit far, I would suspect. Also, the drug addict response of the Finns shows that whoever went into the doorway after Mat was ta'varen, and Perrin was no where near there. Does that mean that there was another ta'varen in the stone? The idea that rand was in before Mat introduces too many variables, wouldn't you say? <br /><br />Who would you say that the other person was?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 19:08:03
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
i was always a little curious about the prospect of others down there and why the bootprints where described as they were. i like what you've done here, but don't have much in the way of patience to question or think about it much more than the people here already have...so. yeah. you rock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />  &quot;But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.&quot;<br /><br />from 'the velveteen rabbit'<br /><br />first warder to lord malshun<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 19:08:50
subject: <b>Firstly</b>
body:
good theory, I'm probably far too negative so I'll make sure I say that straight off!<br /><br />The points about the words with an &quot;s&quot; at the end aren't exactly as conclusive as you make them sound. Certainly they COULD refer to someone entering before Mat, but if you try saying the word without the &quot;s&quot;, they sound very strange indeed, almost as if implying Mat has titles like &quot;The Questioner&quot;. I think it can apply just as easily to Mat being another person coming to ask questions as others have in the past as it can to another person already being there.<br /><br />None of that contradicts your theory of course.<br /><br />As for Lan...maybe. Surely Moiraine would have felt him though? Maybe there's some way to work it so that the timing of when Lan and Moiraine are inside coincide so nothing seems that strange, but it seems unlikely. Then there's the idea that Moiraine DID feel Lan down there but didn't ask him about it and/or it never came up in her POV. Which is feasible, but only as much as your idea that if any POV character had gone into it then we'd HAVE to have had a mention of it. <br /><br />I like the Berelian ideas.


created: 2003-06-30 20:46:55
subject: <b>Order of Entry</b>
body:
I had always assumed that Mat was the last of the three to enter. I assumed this because all three came out at about the same time, yet Mat would have stayed in for less time. (Yes I realize time might move differently, but I assumed my assumption would still be right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ). Moiraine and Rand required an interpreter (and since things have to be translated both ways it easily doubles the required length of any conversation). Mat also asked and received his questions quickly, the others seemed to have received more complete/longer answers and were not hurried out before their answer could have been finished.<br /><br />Good theory though, I can't decide whether I agree or not. The thing is, why? Why would RJ choose to not tell us that others had gone through. what information might he be hiding that would be important?


created: 2003-06-30 21:44:54
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Whoa...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eben<br />AshamanWarder<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 22:16:23
subject: <b>Congrats on the 1000 theory</b>
body:
I have a few points. First, I see the dust thing not as an indication that the first person was trying to conceal their presence. To me it just indicates that the ter'angreals etc are considered taboo for the tairens, so while the palace is maintained up to the door way, no one is prepared to go through.<br />Second, if Lan was going through, I think it more likely that he entered before Moiraine, not after. You quote of Moiraine talking to the girls saying they rush in where she wouldn't send Lan and 1000 warders to me indicates this. Plus in Illian I think, Lan claims it as a warders right to go first, and remember that the third and fourth bells sound after the first guy leaves. This also fits with the whole boot thing.<br />Lastly, I agree with the others that postulate Berelain as a candidate. She is one of the few with knowledge of the doorway and what it does. It would explain her fixaion on Perrin, and further, she may have asked a question about the Aiel, which would explain why she is treated better by them than most wet landers<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 23:27:44
subject: <b>Congrats</b>
body:
Very rare after so long to here an original theory - but I've been at this site since near the beginning and I havn't heard this one I think. Well done<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-06-30 23:36:11
subject: <b>Great theory! I like it a lot!</b>
body:
Again Berelain is a prime canidate, with a reason to go through.  I doubt the Tairens would touch it, though they knew it was in the past to pressure Berelain's ancestor to turn it over to them. And Berelain probably would take advantage of a situation that brought her close to the ter'angreal.  I doubt many Firsts go to the Stone of Tear and walk out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-30 23:56:23
subject: <b>Good theory, one flaw I see</b>
body:
Wether it is a minor flaw or not, significant or insignificant, I do not agree with the following: &quot;Nynaeve and Egwene would need men to shift around in a room full of priceless artefacts? Items that are insanely valuable for Aes Sedai and the White Tower? Especially when they could just move anything they want to with the Power. It doesn&#8217;t make any sense to have workers help them.&quot;  They were dealing with ter'angreal, sa'angreal and angreal.  I doubt that they would be channelling around so many artifacts for fear of accidentally activiting one of them and causing disaster.  Therefore, I feel that it is quite possible for them to bring a couple fo men with them to move things around...of course with careful supervision.  All in all, great theory.  I vote yes!


created: 2003-07-01 00:11:01
subject: <b>Hey Green 'Gay' Gaidin</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />   (inside joke, hehe)<br /><br />You should get to work and post that other theory you told me about, the one about the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />This theory post needs some more good theories.  This is probably your finest theory yet though, so ride the wave while it is high for a while.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 02:25:55
subject: <b>Lan is a distinct possibility...</b>
body:
From the top, we have to ask ourselves did Lan know Moiraine would be going in or not.<br /><br />If not, he's going to be shocked when she pops down the basement and vanishes (the bond) and will be right behind her on the trail of any prints she leaves in the dust and straight through the doorway.<br /><br />On the other hand, if he does know, what are the odds he'd let her walk through that doorway unescorted? As Gaidin go, he's not known for following instructions particularly well when his Aes Sedai's fat's in the fire...<br /><br />All in all, nice job on #1000, GG. Best I've seen in a long time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-01 02:52:12
subject: <b>Sorry, but I don't agree</b>
body:
Well, I agree that it's very likely that there was another in the doorway that night, especially in light of that RAFO that RJ gave you. But I don't agree with the theory you presented.<br /><br />&quot;As soon as she spoke their eyes all dropped to him again, and they leaned forward, breathing deeply again, but at that moment a bell tolled, a sonorous brazen sound that rolled through the room. They swayed upright, staring at one another, then at the air over Mat's head again.<br /><br />&quot;He is another,&quot; the woman on the left whispered.&quot;<br /><br />As I read this, it does not look like there is any addictive response to the bell. Rather, they breathe deeply before the bell, and the bell breaks them out of that enjoyment. Then notice that their gaze returns to the air above Mat's head. That is where they look to answer his questions, where they read a part of his thread. They look at it again after the bell, look at each other for confirmation, then one states that &quot;He is another&quot; meaning Mat.<br /><br />The bells are accompanied by increasing instability in Finnland, suggesting that the bells are tied to the increasing strain on the connection between worlds and not a matter of people entering or exiting. If the third bell, the mournful sounding one, was a person exiting, then the strain should have decreased, not increased as it does (&quot;and the entire room trembled&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. By the fourth and fifth bells, the strain has risen to earthquakes and reverberations of the walls.<br /><br />I believe that Rand entered before Mat, and that it was his boot prints that Mat saw. And perhaps Moiraine swept the floor of dust because she didn't want anyone else following her into the doorway (but then, where are her footprints?).<br /><br />One thing against there being anybody in their at the same time as them is that anybody would have heard the tolling and felt the strain on the connection, and would have left in a hurry. After all, Moiraine did, and she's not ta'veren. Yet the only people we see coming out of the doorway is Mat Rand and Moiraine. I suppose someone could have exited the doorway before Mat, but the close proximity with which Mat Rand and Moiraine exit it suggests anyone else exiting would have been noticed by Mat as he got out.<br /><br />Also, the answers Aes Sedai (or RJ) give you are not the answers you think you hear. You asked if anyone else was in the doorway that <i>night</i>. You didn't ask if anyone else was in there at the exact same time. So his RAFO is extremely vague.<br /><br />All that aside, well done, good job, and keep the theories coming!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 03:13:04
subject: <b>Very original theory...</b>
body:
though I'm not sure I agree with it. <br /><br />Though if it was berelain that went through the door it might explain her relationship with perrin. Maybe something the finn said told her to try to &quot;be with&quot; Perrin or something.<br /><br />But all this does seem a little sketch, like the bells ringing whe a person comes in and using bootprints that were probly just workmen as evidence for someone fallowing mat into the doorway. Though the whole dusting thing did seem kinda of strange. And RJs comment was interesting, but maybe the confused look was that he didn't know what you were talking about and the smile was him relizing that it could be construed that someone else went through the doorway and that it would be fun to set you on a false lead, &quot;yanking your chain&quot; so to speak. <br /><br />Anyway the theory was original and interesting, though not definitive


created: 2003-07-01 04:08:47
subject: <b>Bobsledai</b>
body:
First off, great sn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now, to get to the nitty gritty:<br /><br /><b>As I read this, it does not look like there is any addictive response to the bell. Rather, they breathe deeply before the bell, and the bell breaks them out of that enjoyment. Then notice that their gaze returns to the air above Mat's head. That is where they look to answer his questions, where they read a part of his thread. They look at it again after the bell, look at each other for confirmation, then one states that &quot;He is another&quot; meaning Mat</b><br /><br />You misunderstand me: their response is to ta'varen, not the bell, and yes they were reacting to Mat before the bell. After the bell sounds, though, they go wild. If the bells are people entering/leaving, and they have the SAME reaction but stronger to whoever comes in at the bell, what does that tell us about the person who just came in? That they, too, are ta'varen. Now, as I said, it definetely isn't Perrin, so that means that it HAS to be Rand. Therefore he is not in there before Mat; he comes in after.<br /><br /><b>The bells are accompanied by increasing instability in Finnland, suggesting that the bells are tied to the increasing strain on the connection between worlds and not a matter of people entering or exiting. If the third bell, the mournful sounding one, was a person exiting, then the strain should have decreased, not increased as it does (&quot;and the entire room trembled&quot;. By the fourth and fifth bells, the strain has risen to earthquakes and reverberations of the walls.</b><br /><br />Yes, Finnland is coming down around their heads, yet why would they thow Mat out and not bar the door to whomever else comes in? The men who grabbed and expelled Mat could have just as easily thrown Moiraine out when she entered, yer they did not. this suggests that the danger was present because f the strain created y ta'varen, not by more people. Like Moiraine says, the more ta'varen are in there, the more dangerous it is.<br /><br /><b>I believe that Rand entered before Mat, and that it was his boot prints that Mat saw. And perhaps Moiraine swept the floor of dust because she didn't want anyone else following her into the doorway (but then, where are her footprints?).</b><br /><br />Well, I've already shown why Rand had to come in after Mat. <i>Perhaps</i> Moiraine swept the floor prior to entering first, but how many people went in there? lol. That would make it a total of seven.<br /><br /><b>One thing against there being anybody in their at the same time as them is that anybody would have heard the tolling and felt the strain on the connection, and would have left in a hurry. After all, Moiraine did, and she's not ta'veren. Yet the only people we see coming out of the doorway is Mat Rand and Moiraine. I suppose someone could have exited the doorway before Mat, but the close proximity with which Mat Rand and Moiraine exit it suggests anyone else exiting would have been noticed by Mat as he got out.</b><br /><br />Not everyone knows how the doorways work. After all, Mat was not ushered out peacefully in either finn experience: he was thrown out both times. Besides, if Rand enters to this rumbling, how is he to know that it is abnormal there? Also, how is he to exit?The doorway dissapeared behind Mat when he entered... it seems that you don't leave until the finns let you leave.<br /><br /><b>Also, the answers Aes Sedai (or RJ) give you are not the answers you think you hear. You asked if anyone else was in the doorway that night. You didn't ask if anyone else was in there at the exact same time. So his RAFO is extremely vague.</b><br /><br />I'm confused here... whether he based his surprise and his RAFO on that night or on at the same time, the implication is the same, is it not? Besides, have you ever met RJ? That type of response (open surprise) is not common for him. He actually reminded me a lot of Perrin: very slow thinking and methodical. No wonder it takes so long for each new book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 04:11:11
subject: <b>Yes, I do think so</b>
body:
There are some flaw in your theory. If someone have entered the Doorway at the same time with Rand, Moir and Mat I think that we must know by now. Or atleast have enough clues to find out who if you are right. Yet we have none.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 04:37:46
subject: <b>And back to you, GG</b>
body:
<b>You misunderstand me: their response is to ta'varen, not the bell, and yes they were reacting to Mat before the bell. After the bell sounds, though, they go wild. If the bells are people entering/leaving, and they have the SAME reaction but stronger to whoever comes in at the bell, what does that tell us about the person who just came in? That they, too, are ta'varen. Now, as I said, it definetely isn't Perrin, so that means that it HAS to be Rand. Therefore he is not in there before Mat; he comes in after.</b><br /><br />Okay, how exactly do they go wild? I just see them sway upright, stare at one another, then look at the air above Mat's head. What in that suggests they are responing to ta'veren? After the second bell it says that the Snake people were &quot;anxious&quot;. That also doesn't go with what you're saying. As I read it, they breathe deeply before the bell tolls. Do you read it differently?<br /><br /><b>Yes, Finnland is coming down around their heads, yet why would they thow Mat out and not bar the door to whomever else comes in? The men who grabbed and expelled Mat could have just as easily thrown Moiraine out when she entered, yer they did not. this suggests that the danger was present because of the strain created by ta'varen, not by more people. Like Moiraine says, the more ta'varen are in there, the more dangerous it is.</b><br /><br />The point is that the bells are shown to be tied to something different than what you suggest. If the beels are people coming and going, then why does the rumbling and trembling accompany the bells? It would be near impossible coincidence for the five bells to be timed perfectly with the tremors. And look at this: <br /><br />&quot;a bell tolled, a sonorous brazen sound that rolled through the room.&quot;<br />&quot;The bell tolled again, louder this time; Mat felt its tremor through his boots.&quot;<br />&quot;A third time the bell sounded mournfully, and the entire room trembled.&quot;<br />&quot;Twice more the bell tolled, or the palace did.&quot;<br /><br />If the bells are tied to comings and goings, why is there an increasing tremor <i>with each bell</i>? these quotes seem to me to say that the tremors are tied to the bells are tied to the strain of having multiple ta'veren through the doorway at once.<br /><br /><b>Well, I've already shown why Rand had to come in after Mat.</b><br /><br />Yes, but that explanation depends on an above point in contention.<br /><br /><b>Also, how is he to exit?The doorway dissapeared behind Mat when he entered... it seems that you don't leave until the finns let you leave.</b><br /><br />&quot;The <i>ter'angreal</i> was still there, but this was certainly not where he had started.&quot; p 249 pb.<br /><br /><b>I'm confused here... whether he based his surprise and his RAFO on that night or on at the same time, the implication is the same, is it not? Besides, have you ever met RJ? That type of response (open surprise) is not common for him. He actually reminded me a lot of Perrin: very slow thinking and methodical. No wonder it takes so long for each new book </b><br /><br />Yes, the implication is the same that someone went through the doorway at some point in time, but the exact meaning of his answer depends on his interpretation of your question. Did he take it to mean that night or at the same time? I don't know, and no, I've never met RJ. Sounds like he's not your normal guy to talk to. I wonder how much his writing influences his personality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 05:07:57
subject: <b>I think RJ will plagurise (sp) your theory!</b>
body:
He was confused for a moment? I think he wrote that chapter the way he did by accident, so to speak, and your theory fits it so well and sounds so good he probably thought it sounded clever and he could stick it in at a later point as though he had planned it himself all along! But now that you've made it such a widespread idea he might abandon it as it's already expected now...heheh. Sorry, i'm a cynic!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 06:35:59
subject: <b>I'm not sure it holds water.</b>
body:
Good theory? Absolutely! And written with great conviction. But I think Bobsledai shows that each point is depending on eachother in order for it(the theory as a whole) to work. I also don't think one can put too much weight in the physical reaction of an author when asking about his work. After all, the question was cleverly put, and he had to be considering if he would be saying too much when answering. Also, he's just a man. A journalist asking a spokesman a question and not focusing on the answer, but rather on the reaction, would not be considered seriously if you ask me. Only a hardcore fan (like most of us) would do that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /> I believe we do not know enough about the Finns to make speculations. There is only one vague fact that supports the notion of the gong acting as a doorbell and that is that channelers, in the old days, used a sort of doorbell to announce the opening of a gateway. I think it was when Moridin first came to Graendal, or maybe it was sammael I can't be sure. Nevertheless there are too many unknown variables too be sure.<br />Does time flow the same way in their world as in Rand's? Could not the bell sound mournfully because a third question had been answered, instead of someone leaving? Are the sensations experienced by the finns only derived from Ta'veren? I seem to recall that Moiraine, shortly upon exiting the portal, telling Mat and Rand that Anyone who enters can get questions answered. Is the Tower really the habitat of the finns? If so then the matter of space is a matter of opinion. Did not Brigette claim the Tower to be a doorway to the Finns?<br /><br />Some of these questions are answerable (is that even a word?) but on the whole I do not agree with this theory even if I enjoyed it, and I very much did.


created: 2003-07-01 06:58:59
subject: <b>Congratulations GG!</b>
body:
Sorry I'm here late. You said you and your cousin had some good stuff, and you were right. This was definitely worth the wait and deserving of number 1,000. <br /><br /> I see quite a few people suggesting Berelain as the other visitor. I have a hard time envisioning her character down in that part of the Stone at that point in time. <br /><br /> Lanfear is probably a much more logical choice. We know she was in the Stone earlier. She certainly would not be afraid to go down there, and she would almost certainly know what the Doorway was for. On top of that, the pure irony of her death going through the other Doorway with Moiraine would be typical of Jordan.<br /><br /> Great job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 07:45:31
subject: <b>No answer?</b>
body:
No answer or ideas for how Lan could go down there without Moiraine knowing?<br /><br />The only thing I can think of is if he entered after Moiraine, but left before her. Though that depends on the bind being screwed while in Finnland, both while one of them is in and the other isn't, and while both are in. Which we don't have any evidence for.<br /><br />We are without doubt going back to Finnland at some point in these books, which I can't wait for incidentally, I'm sure more clues will appear then.


created: 2003-07-01 08:55:26
subject: <b>Lan and Lanfear</b>
body:
If it were Lan who went through, it could not be for the purpose of asking about Nynaeve going to Tanchico.  He was unaware of that plan until the morning she was leaving!<br /><br />Lanfear-- I still think it possible the mournful sound indicated the arrival of another person into the Doorway. That was when all hell broke loose.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 11:53:04
subject: <b>Great theory, with one little flaw</b>
body:
First, some quotes from the book<br /><br />Shadow Rising     CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway  <br />   A clutter of figurines and small things wrapped in rotting cloth occupied the top of a tall, upended barrel near him. He pushed the jumble to one side so he could set the lamp there, and studied the doorway. The ter'angreal. If Egwene knew what she was talking about. She probably did; no doubt she had learned all sorts of strange things in the Tower, however much she denied. She would deny things, wouldn't she now. Learning to be Aes Sedai. She didn't deny this though, now did she? If he squinted, it just looked like a stone doorframe, dully polished and the duller for dust. Just a plain doorframe. Well, not entirely plain. Three sinuous lines carved deep in the stone ran down each upright from top to bottom. He had seen fancier on farmhouses. He would probably step through and find himself still in this dusty room.  <br /><br />White light blinded him; the roar filled his head till it drove thought away. He fell heavily onto a dusty floor in dim light and rolled up against the barrel holding his lamp in the Great Hold. The barrel rocked, packets and figurines toppling to the floor in a crash of breaking stone and ivory and porcelain. Bounding to his feet, he threw himself back at the stone doorframe. &quot;Burn you, you can't throw me-!&quot; <br /><br />A boot appeared, backing out of the twisted stone doorway, followed by the rest of Rand, with that fiery sword in his hands. The blade vanished as he stepped clear, and he heaved a sigh of relief. Even in the dim light, Mat could see he was troubled, though. He gave a start when he saw Mat. &quot;Just poking around; Mat? Or did you go through, too?&quot; Mat eyed him warily for a moment. At least that sword was gone. He did not seem to be channeling-though how was anybody to tell?-and he did not look particularly like a mad-man. In fact, he looked very much as Mat remembered. He had to remind himself they were not back home any longer, and Rand was not what he remembered. &quot;Oh, I went through, all right. A bunch of bloody liars, if you ask me! What are they? Made me think of snakes.&quot; <br /><br />&quot;You! You were both in there. That is why . . . !&quot; She made a vexed hiss. &quot;One of you would have been bad enough, but two ta'veren at once-you might have torn the connection entirely and been trapped there. Wretched boys playing with things you do not know the danger of. Perrin! Is Perrin in there, too? Did he share your . . . exploit!&quot; <br /><br /><br />The first paragraph is before he went in the doorway, the second when he left.  The third is Rand seeing Mat, and not knowing if he went through.  Surely, if Rand found a lit lamp in an empty room, he would have assumed that whoever had the lamp there went in the doorway, but he seemed surprised that there was someone else in the room. The fourth is Moiraine's departure.  <br /><br /><br />The reason I think that Mat was the LAST one in out of the three of them, is that he left his lamp lit, and over to the side, near the doorway.  So if either Rand or Moiraine showed up after, they would have seen this lit lamp, and at least known that someone else who couldn't create their own magic light (neither Rand nor Moiraine carried lanterns) was inside.  Rand might have gone in regardless, but as for Moiraine, if she arrived and saw a lit lamp there, I would think she would wait to see who was there before taking the risk of going in.  Since it could have been one of the two ta'veren who can't create their own magical lights, and since she obviously knows the danger of ta'veren going in there, why would she risk it?


created: 2003-07-01 12:31:50
subject: <b>Great Theory GG</b>
body:
I can't wait to see some more of the juicy ones you got brewing, I know from our discussions they should be as good as this one. <br /><br />I read the entire chapter again, and I really like your idea's about the bells being people entering. <br /><br />To bobsledai's suggestion that the bells could just be the Finns answering questions, there are not enough tolls for the ammount of answers Mat asked.<br /><br />We have:<br /><br /><i>&#8220;You must go to Rhuidean.&#8221;</i><br /><b>but at that moment a bell tolled, a sonorous brazen sound that rolled through the room.</b><br /><br /><i>&#8220;If you do not go to Rhuidean,&#8221; the woman on the right said, &#8220;you will die.&#8221; </i><br /><b>The bell tolled again, louder this time; Mat felt its tremor through his boots. </b><br /><br /><i>&#8220;You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go. You must go! Quickly!&#8221;</i><br /><b>A third time the bell sounded mournfully, and the entire room trembled.  </b><br /><br /><i>&#8220;To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!&#8221; <br />&#8220;To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!&#8221;<br />&#8220;To give up half the light of the world to save the world!&#8221; </i><br /><b>Twice more the bell tolled, or the palace did. Everything shook as in an earthquake; the, walls rang with deafening reverberations, each louder than the last. </b><br /><br />6 answers, 5 tolls.<br /><br />The bells must mean something differnet than a question answered.<br /><br />Good job GG, you got my thumbs way up!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 12:33:22
subject: <b>Very good!</b>
body:
never thought of that! Yes Moir and rand would notice the lamp. So Mat is likely the last one to enter the Doorway.<br />Excellent!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 12:37:45
subject: <b>If they were throwing them all out...</b>
body:
Then the three we know about would have still been talking when the other was thrown out.  Unless the other that came in after did not come in the same way?


created: 2003-07-01 13:00:38
subject: <b>Correction</b>
body:
it was Jiarmai who suggested that the bells were after the questions were answered, not bobsledai. My apologies. <br /><br />I started my post before I read the latest evidence put forth by WineSpringBrother. Hrm, I am going to be pondering this for a bit.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 13:34:10
subject: <b>Door bell....</b>
body:
Its not so complicated is it?  The bell ( door bell) signals anothers presence through the doorway.  I like the theory.  Others have suggested that the bell rings when the strain is increasing.  To me it makes more sense that the bell signals the entrance of a questioner.  You have a doorbell at home to anounce visitors, don't you?<br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 14:04:05
subject: <b>the bells are not indications of people coming and going</b>
body:
First off there are six bells, not five as some have commented.  The fourth one that everyone seems to have missed is right when Mat is first being thrown out, &quot;What fate?  Burn your hearts, what fate?  It was the room itself that pealed, the walls and floor quivering, nearly taking Mat and his attackers off their feet.&quot;  The bells are an alarm, a warning that there are too many ta'veren in there causing the strain.  You'll notice after the first bell the Finns become worried and start talking about the strain, and also try to get Mat to hurry up and get out.  Also, there are six bells, which means that three people would have had to enter while Mat was being thrown out and I doubt anyone could come up with four other people who might know about it and be willing to risk going through.  Also, it makes no sense that the vibrations of the room increases with each bell if it is only an indication of people coming and going.  However, if it is as I said above and alarm system then the shaking of the rooms is an indication that the situation if getting worse.<br /><br />Also, I believe Rand and Moiraine entered before Mat, I'm gonna cheat and use WineSpringBrother's arguement, neither would have been surprised to see him if they had seen his lamp there before they went in.  Therefore it seems likely that Mat saw Rand's boots, especially since we know that Rand also found an angreal in the Stone's Great Hold.  Given this, if you are right about the bells being indications of coming and going then there must have been six others unaccounted for.  It seems highly unlikely that that many went through and we've seen nothing to indicate that anyone else has gone through.<br /><br />The Finns arent adicted to ta'veren, they get to rummage through people's sensations, &quot;Sensations, emotions, experiences.  They rummage through them; you can feel them doing it, making your skin crawl.  Perhaps they feed on them in some manner.&quot;<br /><br />Your RAFO answer is hardly evidence, take a look at Taimendred questions, for the longest time RJ RAFOed those but has now come out and said no, the same with Olver = GC.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 15:38:41
subject: <b>Not Berelain, not Rhuarc, not Lan or Lanfear, but Slayer</b>
body:
I think Slayer entered, and the bells rang twice. Once for Luc, once for Isam. The mournful sound for he who is dead (&quot;one lived and one died but both are&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. In Winters Heart he reveals that it was him who killed the darkfriend sisters Amico and Joia in the attack on the Stone earlier that same day.<br />In Perrins dream later in TsR we see Slayer escaping into the tower of Ghengei, so whe know he has dealings with the Finns. Birgitte says there is nearly impossible to escape the tower from Tel'aran'rhiod, so he must know some other way out.<br />As to what his purpose was, I don't know. He may have gone there to spy on the three others, or perhaps it is they who keep him together. If they could put other men's memories into Mat's head, then they should be able to glue two persons...?<br /><br />Because of this, I think Slayer might be an important player in rescueing Moiraine. He knows the way out of Finnland. Gitara Moroso told Luc that the fate of the world depended on him going to the Blight. We know from Min that Rand will fail without a woman dead and long gone (Moiraine, right?) I think I need say no more<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 15:44:18
subject: <b>ooops.. Small correction to the above..</b>
body:
When I say &quot;they&quot; I mean the Finns, and not the three others (Rand Mat and Moiraine) though it may look so. And that smiley is not supposed to be there...<br />Agh, why do I never read through before I post..? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />And why is there no editing possibility?<br />Well, well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 16:22:00
subject: <b>great theory &amp; congratulations</b>
body:
I though it was a great theory, very complete including a reaction by robert jordan himself regarding this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Protect the weak against the evil strong<br />Never allow thoughts of gain to lead into the service of evil<br />Do not back away from an enemy, either fight or die trying<br />It is not enough to say I will not be evil<br />Evil must be fought wherever it is found</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 16:38:33
subject: <b>the bell of mourning</b>
body:
Is it possible that the bell of mourning could be because Rand didn't like his answers and then wielded his sword of fire thus breaking their laws? We all know the only way to beat the Snakes and Foxes is to break the rules. This would explain their haste in getting Mat out because this is maybe destroying their tower? Thoughts?<br /><br />Also, I like the Berelain part and how she's following Perrin around for the rest of the series. I think this might be a good reason for the RAFO comment from RJ.<br /><br />Also, is anyone going to mention how Min's Talent seems awfully familiar to the Finn in this door?


created: 2003-07-01 16:57:55
subject: <b>Maginor, you might be on to something,</b>
body:
Slayer was at the Stone and apparently from what we've seen knowledge of the Finns.  <br /><br />Good thought.<br /><br />Something to think on.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 17:36:59
subject: <b>True-- it could have been Slayer</b>
body:
For one--- we do not know how he opens gateways yet.<br /><br />Does he open them from Finnland?<br /><br />And he can reopen them from the waking world?<br /><br />I very much like this idea of Slayer leaving the Stone through the ter'angreal.<br /><br />How else would he have left?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 19:08:08
subject: <b>Not sure about this - a bit circumstantial</b>
body:
Ok, I gotta say, despite the title, that I loved this theory. Original, possible, and argued very well and readably. Thank you, Green Gaidin, a well earned #1000.<br /><br />However, now to my problems with it:<br /><br />1. &quot;they&quot; doesn't really indicate anything. There are two reasons for this: in English we often refer to someone as &quot;they&quot; to avoid saying &quot;he&quot;/&quot;she&quot;, particularly if the actual person involved is not that important; also we use &quot;they&quot; of a single person of e.g. a different nationality/ race/ religion etc. E.g. &quot;A Frenchman has arrived.&quot; &quot;I don't like them. Why are they visiting us again?&quot;. Ditto for the plurals.<br /><br />2. There is no reason, given the importance of the room in question, that Moiraine might not have had the way to the room swept, but been wary about cleaners in the room itself (even though we know they moved some objects around in the room).<br /><br />3. There has been no indication (apart from speculation) that Lan, Rhuard or Berelain (or anyone else for that matter) went through the door. If Lan thought the first love (when he was aged 45 or so) of his life was seriously in danger, e.g. in the way that later transpired in Ebou Dar, no amount of duty would have kept him with Moiraine.<br /><br />4. If someone else had come in shortly before Mat, why would the first words to greet him be &quot;A long time.&quot;?<br /><br />5. The breathy quality of the voice may not be dissimilar to the sibilant sound of a snake: remember these are the snake-people.<br /><br />6. Mat, Rand and Moiraine came out of the doorway again within moments of each other. Why would a previous, or later, entrant not also emerge at more or less the same time?<br /><br />7. In fact the bells tolled 4 times after Mat not 3. How many people were likely to have gone in, all at the same time, without RJ giving any indication over the next 6 books??? Surely it is more likely that the bells just indicated strain, and continued to sound while there was strain in the connection between the worlds.<br /><br />8. &quot;A third time the bell sounded mournfully...&quot;. This means the first two were also mournful. Otherwise RJ would have needed a comma to indicate description of that one time: &quot;A third time the bell sounded, mournfully, ...&quot;.<br /><br />9. The most important point, however, which seems to have been overlooked so far, is: who knew about the doorway? The answer is: Moiraine, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Rand, Mat. Mat only knew because the girls blabbed, but the others all heard from Moiraine. Who else would Moiraine have told? Only Lan. So in as much as I agree with anything, I think Lan is the most likely to have entered too, but there is no indication that he did (e.g. Moiraine emerging and wondering where he was). Incidentally Perrin wasn't in there - some point later he denied ever going in (I can't remember where, but I'd guess in CoS as it would have been to Rand or Mat, and CoS was the only time he met either of them (Dumai's Wells aside) after tSR).<br /><br />10. RJ's reaction does not sound to me like you got one of his hidden plot twists. He is very used now to people coming out with theories, and if it was accurate he would not have looked surprised. He might even have denied it outright (e.g. he has denied Taimandred, among others). More likely this was something he had never thought of, and decided to let you imagine it was a possibility.<br /><br />All these points aside, I still like the theory and admit it is possible. I am, however, unconvinced by any of the evidence you advance, and so to me this theory is pure speculation.


created: 2003-07-01 19:34:36
subject: <b>The Power and the Ter'angreals in Tear.</b>
body:
First off, let me say that this is a very thought-out and well developed theory.<br />Now, I have one thought on the matter of the footprints mat passes off as workmen's.<br /><br />In aCoS, when the girls found the cache in Ebou Dar, they did not carry everything out with the Power, they had people carry stuff with their coats, etc.[pg. 776, pb].  Touching a Ter'angreal with the power could be extremely disasterous, and none of the Aes Sedai are dim witted enough (at least none present at the time--I have my doubts about Egwene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) to use the power around Ter'angreal without a <i>really</i> good reason.<br /><br />So, naturally, they <i>could</i> have had men to carry things around for them, making the footprints plausable without any hidden meanings.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="8A2BE2"><i><b>Fae</b></i></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Pronounced 'Nynaeve' without the glossary<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wonders why there is a <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> but not a Legolas<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="FF0000">Vash the Stampede is my hero.</font><br />&quot;This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo staff.&quot;<br />-<font color="339999">Napoleon Dynamite</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 19:37:25
subject: <b>A copule more points for the list</b>
body:
11. Moiraine's bond to Lan either needs to be screwing up due to being in Finnland (with timings needing to be that Lan entered and left within the time Moiraine was inside, that also assumes the bind does not give direction and distance while both are in Finnland) or Moiraine simply never thinks about it in a POV for it to be Lan.<br /><br />12. The whole lamp point someone brought up, that Moiriane and Rand shouldn't be surprised to find others entered if they entered after Mat, as they'd have seen the lamp.<br /><br />As for point no. 9, Berelain likely knows about the doorway too. No doubt she will have learned it when she was taught the hitory of her nation, a doorway which gives you absolutely truthful answers about the future is not something which would be ignored.


created: 2003-07-01 21:06:05
subject: <b>some additional points`</b>
body:
I have some other stuff to add to this theory, which was well-researched.<br />I personally think, after viewing the evidence, that it was indeed Slayer who went in there. I definitely think Rhuarc did not go in (though he may have seen the other one in Rhuidean during his ascension to Chief and been curious about this one during a stray walk to look for any surviving enemies).<br />Also, for Berelain, she's never even been in the Stone of Tear before, so how could she possibly have known where the angreal storehouse was? And she's only heard of it through historical documentation (maybe), so how does she know exactly what it looks like?<br />Lan has no reason to go in. He doesn't really give a damn about anything. Why did Lan insist on going with Nyneave and end up saving her? Maybe Moiraine told him about what would happen.<br />It's a consensus that Egwene, Elayne, and Nyneave never entered it.<br />So who does that leave? I think Slayer (or it could have been anyone else! keep reading and insert &quot;anybody else&quot; for Slayer). For a minute, let's assume that four people entered: Moraine, Rand, Mat, and X. Also, let's assume that the bells were tolling because of the strain on Finnland because of the ta'veren. We know Moiraine fled immediately, Rand left, and Mat was kicked out. Right there, Mat and Rand, the two ta'veren, left. So then, the bells and earthquakes very likely would have subsided, and X could stay without leaving, because there would be no rush. Now I'd tend to agree with some people that it was Slayer, but as you can see, it could have been anyone else in there, and they didn't necessarily have to leave. This basically refutes some of Jordanian's points, especially point #6.<br />Sorry, that was kind of long winded.


created: 2003-07-01 21:36:22
subject: <b>re</b>
body:
&quot;Also, for Berelain, she's never even been in the Stone of Tear before, so how could she possibly have known where the angreal storehouse was? And she's only heard of it through historical documentation (maybe), so how does she know exactly what it looks like?&quot;<br /><br />Rand only read about it in a book, yet he found it, and Mayene are likely to have far more detailed accounts of it if anything. She doesn't need to know exactly what it looks like anyway, how many free standing archways can there be down there? As for finding out where the angreal are, it hardly seems like something that would be difficult for someone like Berelain to do.<br /><br />&quot;Lan has no reason to go in. He doesn't really give a damn about anything. Why did Lan insist on going with Nyneave and end up saving her? Maybe Moiraine told him about what would happen.&quot;<br /><br />Of course Lan gives a damn about things. Nynaeve for a (I would hope obvious) start. he cares about defeating the Shadow. He cares about Moiraine (I seem to remember him almost crying when Moiriane died). He cares about honour and duty. In other words, there are questions he would want to ask if he knew of the possibility. I don't think you could find a single character from the whole series who wouldn't have questions to ask. Whether they'd risk it or not is another matter.


created: 2003-07-01 23:19:04
subject: <b>Wow!</b>
body:
I never even noticed the bell stuff-I thought it was just random! Your theory is amazingly detailed; everything is totally backed up by facts. I love RJ's reply to that-it's a perfect conclusion and final supportive statement! Happy 1000th post! Congradulations!


created: 2003-07-02 01:20:13
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
Well, good point about the Berelain thing. But then again, how many woman have we seen (aside from Min) that walk around in boots? No, the First of Mayene wears softer stuff. It still doesn't fit that it was her who went down there.<br /><br />How did Lan know about it? And why would he go in before Mat, Moiraine, and Rand? Why would he sweep the steps after himself? Even aside from those points, it just isn't in Lan's character to go through it. He has no idea where it leads to or what will happen to him. If anything, he'd make sure no one went in there, and if they did, with a guard only. That's more of the Lan we all know, not this philosophical answer-seeker.<br /><br />Also, if it was Lan, why haven't we heard about it for 5 or 6 books? Sounds a bit odd. Same with Berelain.


created: 2003-07-02 07:57:29
subject: <b>re</b>
body:
&quot;Well, good point about the Berelain thing. But then again, how many woman have we seen (aside from Min) that walk around in boots? No, the First of Mayene wears softer stuff. It still doesn't fit that it was her who went down there.&quot;<br /><br />That's only if you think Berelain went first.<br /><br />&quot;How did Lan know about it?&quot;<br /><br />Maybe he heard about it from Moiraine, or even Nynaeve as she would have known about it. Perhaps he just knew from some other time in his life, he's hardly uneducated. Perhaps he felt Moiraine go down there and followed her.<br /><br />&quot;And why would he go in before Mat, Moiraine, and Rand?&quot;<br /><br />I don't think he could have, given the whole bond thing.<br /><br />&quot;Even aside from those points, it just isn't in Lan's character to go through it. He has no idea where it leads to or what will happen to him.&quot;<br /><br />How do you know that? If Lan knew of the doorway, he likely also knows that he can find true answers on the other side. And I also see no reason for it not to be in Lan's character to go through.<br /><br />&quot;If anything, he'd make sure no one went in there, and if they did, with a guard only.&quot;<br /><br />Possibly he would do this, for Moiraine at least. But maybe he didn't know she was going in until she did and he felt it in the bond.<br /><br />&quot;That's more of the Lan we all know, not this philosophical answer-seeker.&quot;<br /><br />Where does philosophy come into this? Some of the answers they give are philosophical no doubt, but it all depends on the question.<br /><br />&quot;Also, if it was Lan, why haven't we heard about it for 5 or 6 books? Sounds a bit odd. Same with Berelain.&quot;<br /><br />Well, I don't actually think it is Lan, I've even given points against him, but I just don't think your reasons for it not being him are very conclusive. I'm not even sure anyone else went in after reading people's comments, though Berelain still seems most likely if I had to choose.


created: 2003-07-02 10:23:13
subject: <b>Interestingly....</b>
body:
Berelain has a cool quote about Perrin in CoT.  *Spoiler alert*<br /><br />I am not going to quote it exactly, but it says something to the extent of 'Perrin, if you keep behaving like your grubby desperate self right now, you are going to start losing support and respect from your camp, and we can't have that.  I very much believe that you are the center of our success, and that if we lose you that we have very little chance of coming out of here alive.'<br /><br />That was the jist of the message.  Of course, Berelain could also be referring to the fact that Perrin is ta'veren, and that his camp is currently threatened by Masema, Seanchan, Aiel, and Whitecloaks, and Shadowspawn. But that quote did interest me, because if anything else, Berelain and her camp did have the option of getting a gateway out of there.  And why is Berelain spending so much time helping Perrin accomplish his mission when she apparently has so little to achive by it? (other than serving the Dragon Reborn?)<br /><br />And why is Berelain so devoted to serving Rand when most of the other nobles are trying to backstab him?  Of course it has to do with Mayenne politics, and the fact that Rand is in charge of Tear, but it goes deeper than that.<br /><br />CoT keeps describing how 'determined' Berelain is, and I always wonder about that source.  Even Gallene is hesitant about staying around, but Berelian would hear nothing of leaving.  She expects to gain something from this personally-- but what is it?<br /><br />She has already extracted her revenge from Perrin, and no longer smells like the hunter to him. (she is not currently chasing him).  So what is her real prey?<br /><br />To me, this could be an implication or possible way of seeing that she may have had a viewing.<br /><br />Just like Mat knew that he had to go to Rhuidean, Berelain may know she *has to stay here, and knows that Perrin is the center of success*.<br /><br />Berelain would still be my top option, and given her desparateness and uncertainty at the time, it would surprise me if she didn't try to go into that ter'angreal.  I am just surprised nobody thought of it before.<br /><br />Finally, I would think that Slayer might be a better suspect than Lan.<br /><br />This Slayer idea is a very intriguing one.  But are you sure about the timelines?<br /><br />How do we know that Mat entered this ter'angreal on the same day that the Stone was assaulted?<br /><br />I think it was a few days after, actually.  Mainly because we have vivid descriptions of Mat stumbling around Tear, trying to evade Moiraine's agents, but then being pulled right back to Tear.<br /><br />It took Mat more than one day to decide to ask Egwene for help, and to enter this ter'angreal.<br /><br />So, I am not so sure it is Slayer now that I look at it deeper.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-02 10:50:07
subject: <b>Jordan says 'Read and find out'</b>
body:
If your theory is rubbish, and there were no other people inside the ter'angreal, there will be no future reference to them, and you will not be able to read and find out.<br />Therefore, I think his reaction means that yes, you are on to something.


created: 2003-07-02 11:14:01
subject: <b>The bond</b>
body:
Something I've just thought of:<br /><br />When Moiraine fell through the doorway in tFoH with Lanfear, her bond to Lan was broken.  Presumably she didn't die (everyone thinks she's coming back), so it would have to be going into Finnland that breaks the bond.<br /><br />Why then did the bond not break when she went into Finnland in tSR? The only answers I can think of are:<br /><br />a) the two Finnlands have different properties in relation to the bond (unlikely);<br /><br />b) the bond did (temporarily?) break - we have never been given any information that that would be possible, but some to the contrary;<br /><br />c) Lan was with Moiraine the whole time - which he wasn't as she emerged without him;<br /><br />d) Moiraine is dead.<br /><br />Oh dear, that's a shame, I was looking forward to her return.


created: 2003-07-02 11:43:37
subject: <b>Philbert</b>
body:
RAFO could just as easily mean &quot;... read further and you wont find any of that stuff at all&quot; meaning &quot;You were wrong&quot;


created: 2003-07-02 13:59:02
subject: <b>I think you're right</b>
body:
I don't know if Rhuarc went in, but it would make sense for Lan to go in, at least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-02 23:21:51
subject: <b>In response...</b>
body:
In brief response to Jordanian:<br /><br />&quot;When Moiraine fell through the doorway in tFoH with Lanfear, her bond to Lan was broken. Presumably she didn't die (everyone thinks she's coming back), so it would have to be going into Finnland that breaks the bond.&quot;<br /><br />I'd never thought about that. Assuming that its the same doorway (Isn't it? I guess it doesn't really matter, however.), the same thing would happen both times... unless the bond was broken in tFoH because it was the second time Moiraine had been through. <br /><br />And then in general...<br /><br />I was kind of in between the doorbell/alarm system. First off... if it's a doorbell, then it must ring when someone leaves. That would be the only way for everything to add up. I thought that Moiraine went in first, because as someone quoted earlier, the Finn say something along the lines of &quot;It has been long.&quot; (Thus speaking of a ta'veren in the tower.) Then, after Mat, Rand entered. Then Mat was kicked out (remember he stayed there for less time than the other two), then Rand and Moiraine came out.. six bells. BUT, they're all out of order, so that's obviously not right. I guess I've decided to stick with the warning-bell theory... it seems to be the most logical.<br /><br />Did we decide that there was another person? I'm slightly confused, this is a very jumbled Blackboard. Anyway... I'm against the Lan-in-Finnland theory. We never saw him come out and Moiraine said nothing... so... yeah.<br /><br />When I was reading some of the first comments I thought about Slayer but something made me drop it for the time... I'll have to go back and read this thread again. But I'm leaning towards Slayer as the fourth.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-02 23:59:15
subject: <b>In response to myself.</b>
body:
These are just quotes pulled from the thread... I really don't have time to credit them all, sorry sorry!<br /><br />&quot;Page 174: [Mat steps through the doorway] &#8220;A long time&#8230; A long time yet the seekers come again for answers. The questioners come once more.&#8221; Hmmm&#8230; Does this mean that someone is already in the doorway? Moirane or Rand? They have seen someone else recently&#8230;&quot;<br /><br />-- Not really. If they had said, 'yet the seeker comes again' and 'the questioner comes again' it would have sounded as if Mat was THE seeker and THE questioner... and as far as we know there are no such titles (at least no such titles that Mat fills!). Seekers and questioners seem to be the Finn's names/catagorizations for humans.<br /><br /><br />&quot;tSR, pb, pg247<br />Mat was walking a long corridor that had been swept, with the room he was looking for at the end.&quot;<br /><br />-- Oooh, random thought. Wouldn't a woman's skirts 'sweep' the dust from the corridor? (Re-reading this... never mind, there would be a path to the actual doorway, wouldn't there? Duh me. Besides, most women would hold up their skirts.)<br /><br /><br />&quot;same book, pg 250<br />&quot;Sometimes he caught a flicker of motion out of the corner of his eye. Only, however quickly he turned, there was never anyone there.&quot; &quot;<br /><br />-- Definitely sounds like Slayer, eh?<br /><br /><br />&quot;Also, the answers Aes Sedai (or RJ) give you are not the answers you think you hear. You asked if anyone else was in the doorway that night. You didn't ask if anyone else was in there at the exact same time. So his RAFO is extremely vague.&quot;<br /><br />-- Yeah... but how many people go through the ter'angreal? Remember, the Finns are all 'they come again', so it's been awhile, hasn't it? Its not often that someone in TEAR, of all places, walks through an object that uses the OP.<br /><br /><br />&quot;6. Mat, Rand and Moiraine came out of the doorway again within moments of each other. Why would a previous, or later, entrant not also emerge at more or less the same time?&quot;<br /><br />-- Yes; unless, as some have said, that person didn't come out through the doorway, but rather through the tower exit (wherever that is), i.e. Slayer.<br /><br /><br />&quot;8. &quot;A third time the bell sounded mournfully...&quot;. This means the first two were also mournful. Otherwise RJ would have needed a comma to indicate description of that one time: &quot;A third time the bell sounded, mournfully, ...&quot;.&quot;<br /><br />--Ah, well spotted! I'm definitely agreeing with this... all the bells were mournful. Yay, that's one thing that has been cleared up.<br /><br /><br />---Going back to this one...<br /><br /><br />&quot;When Moiraine fell through the doorway in tFoH with Lanfear, her bond to Lan was broken. Presumably she didn't die (everyone thinks she's coming back), so it would have to be going into Finnland that breaks the bond.<br />Why then did the bond not break when she went into Finnland in tSR? The only answers I can think of are:<br />a) the two Finnlands have different properties in relation to the bond (unlikely);&quot;<br /><br />--Whoops. They aren't the same ones, since the FoH one gives you what you want for a price and the tSR one gives you answers. The two Finnlands would not have different properties in relation to the bond, no, but -maybe- the doorways themselves do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 08:26:40
subject: <b>As for Moiraine and Lan's bond...</b>
body:
Don't forget that the door melted when the bond was broken, which it obviously didn't in Tear. That could have broken the bond. After all, assuming there are no other doorways open to that part of Finnland (The Tower of Ghenji would be closed), perhaps it's impossible for the bond to exist. In Tear there was a doorway open for the bond to pass through.<br /><br />Or maybe Moiraine did die or maybe she broke the bond herself, we really don't know how she's going to return, only that she will.


created: 2003-07-03 09:53:37
subject: <b>I shoose wrong</b>
body:
this theory is well constructed as all the frequent theory posters theories are,but you guys are looking too deep between you,you must have at least 50?How many have happened yet?<br /><br />the bells are a warning like jim says IMHO<br /><br />In saying that though i do enjoy reading these theories but i cant remember any of them coming true yet there should be a percentage correct guage,lets see how the theories really hold up then!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 12:11:11
subject: <b>To tincanchaser</b>
body:
Thanks for your (mostly) support of my comments. No one else has mentioned them, so presumably they think they're irrelevant (sigh).<br /><br />There were 2 separate doorways.  The one in Tear was not moved, and it leads to the land of the snake-people (can't remember whether they're the Eelfinn or the Aelfinn - I assume the former as eels are snakes, but that may be being too clever!).  The snake-people answer 3 questions, and do not charge a price.<br /><br />The doorway in Rhuidean, which was moved to Cairhien at the time Moiraine died, led to the land of the fox-people (presumably the Aelfinn, if my assumption is correct). The fox-people grant 3 wishes, and do charge a price, which can be very high. Perhaps that is why Moiraine died, though it could have been because the door melted.<br /><br />However it is possible Moiraine, on falling through, was granted wishes and was killed as the price (like Mat nearly was). If Finnland time moves differently to normal time, that might be almost instantaneous in our world, hence she appeared to die immediately after falling through the doorway. That may, incidentally, answer the point about Mat, Rand and Moiraine emerging from the snake-people door close on each others' heals (though makes a fourth person in Finnland even more unlikely).<br /><br />Incidentally, as most people reading this will know but for the interest of anyone who doesn't, the game Snakes &amp; Foxes is thought to relate to the Eelfinn &amp; Aelfinn; it starts with the ritual chant (I've forgotten the exact words, but it includes mention of all the things that can harm the Finns (music, iron etc.) - e.g. &quot;iron to bind&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />; and it is impossible to win except by cheating, hence the various theories re Lanfear cheating to get out again, or Mat rescuing Moiraine with iron/music/etc.


created: 2003-07-03 12:40:48
subject: <b>Random Responses/comments</b>
body:
Jordanian:<br />When Moiraine fell through the doorway in tFoH with Lanfear, her bond to Lan was broken. Presumably she didn't die (everyone thinks she's coming back), so it would have to be going into Finnland that breaks the bond.<br /><br />You missed a possibility.  She quite possibly have been burned out (incidentally it's a possibility with lanfear too, which could explain why she's weaker, but that's another theory).<br /><br />tincanchaser - &quot;same book, pg 250<br />&quot;Sometimes he caught a flicker of motion out of the corner of his eye. Only, however quickly he turned, there was never anyone there.&quot; &quot;<br />-- Definitely sounds like Slayer, eh?<br /><br />Also sounds like rats.  I think rats is probably more likely though, but it is possible it was slayer.<br /><br />tincanchaser again - 6. Mat, Rand and Moiraine came out of the doorway again within moments of each other. Why would a previous, or later, entrant not also emerge at more or less the same time?&quot;<br />-- Yes; unless, as some have said, that person didn't come out through the doorway, but rather through the tower exit (wherever that is), i.e. Slayer.<br /><br />Mat, Rand, and Moiraine were all huried because of the danger that was happening.  An earlier entrant might have left before the danger started, a later one might have taken long enough to get out that it settled.  Note even with the danger, they all got to ask their questions. (Mat more than his 3).<br /><br />Jordanian again - Incidentally, as most people reading this will know but for the interest of anyone who doesn't, the game Snakes &amp; Foxes is thought to relate to the Eelfinn &amp; Aelfinn; it starts with the ritual chant (I've forgotten the exact words, but it includes mention of all the things that can harm the Finns (music, iron etc.) - e.g. &quot;iron to bind&quot;; and it is impossible to win except by cheating, hence the various theories re Lanfear cheating to get out again, or Mat rescuing Moiraine with iron/music/etc. <br /><br />Its not likely Lanfear got out again.  Unless the finns changed her entire body shape anyway.  There's also no concrete evidence that any of those things will hurt the finns, only that you are not supposed to bring them and they don't like them.  (that being said I think they do hurt them, just pointing out it's not a given).<br /><br /><br />----  My own now ----<br /><br />I agree that the bells were alarms warning of the strain on that sub-plane.  I'm not sure if anyone else went through I imagine it would have been Berelain (as she is one of the few people who knew exactly how to handle the door).  I don't think Slayer did because I don't think he needs to.  I don't think Slayer actually went into the Tower of Ghenji, but left T'A'R there so Perrin would think he did.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 13:04:13
subject: <b>regarding discussions of moiraine</b>
body:
I think that Moiraine was stilled, not killed in the doorway. This would give a reason, a major character getting burned out (Logain was the first and fully Healed by a woman), for RJ to have a man learn to Heal stilling, namely Flinn. So maybe Flinn will have to heal her and she will have her full strength back instead of getting Nynaeve to heal her to less than her strength.<br /><br />Also, I seem to remember Cyndane (aka Lanfear) saying in WH that she was held by both the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. How is this possible unless they can be reached within one of the doorways? And how do you get to one from the other? I'm sure the Finns have a way. In relation to this, I remember RJ saying once that when Mat gained all those memories they were not of his past lives but rather all the men who went through the door before him. Remember he has memories from people in the Third Age while this door was in Rhuidean the whole time. So how can that be? Did I just understand RJ wrong? Any thoughts?


created: 2003-07-03 14:12:24
subject: <b>Faile?</b>
body:
What kind of shoes does/did Faile wear? She's a fairly well educated woman, maybe she knew something about the Doorway. A Hunter for the Horn probably wears boots. Just thought I'd post this because I think there a large number of people that could be included based on the these mysterious boots. How about some Tairen lord?


created: 2003-07-03 14:37:13
subject: <b>Lan Entering</b>
body:
If another person did enter the door, I believe it is Lan for the following reason.  (well.. actually it's a scenario)<br /><br />This is what might have happened before Moiraine entered the Ter'angreal.<br /><br />Moiraine- Lan, I'm going into this door thing to get some true answers.<br />Lan- You're not going in alone!!!!  Who knows what could be on the other side.<br />Moiraine-I can protect myself.<br />Lan-No you can't!  I would not want you to go in if you had a hundred more warders to guard you.<br />Moiraine-I'm going in anyway, don't make me use the bond to make you let me.<br />Lan-Fine, but I'm going in too.<br /><br />So.. They go to the doorway and both enter.  Except, they are separated.  When each person goes into the doorway they are by themselves.  The doorway sort of generates a new room for each new comer.  Otherwise... Rand and Mat at least would have seen each other, maybe not Moiraine since she is a woman and has a different translator.  So both Lan and Moiraine are in there but they aren't together.  So they get into their question asking, and the bells start tolling.  Moiraine, knowing her questions already runs out.  Mat and Rand are finally kicked out, but Lan is still there.  He probably would sit there for a while thinking of the best questions to ask, and would probably resist the finn's attempts to kick him out.  Once the 2 ta'veren are out as others have stated, he would be free to stay in.<br /><br />I don't like the idea of anyone other than Moiraine, Mat, and Rand being in there, however Lan is the most plausible other.<br /><br />To those who say slayer was there, What about the Two Rivers?  Hopper says Slayer has been there for weeks.  He would have had to be there for some time for all the wolves to get out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 15:15:24
subject: <b>Good theory but don't agree</b>
body:
Indeed, by far your best theory yet, GG.<br /><br />But I tend to disagree.<br /><br />Some comments (sorry if it's a repetition cause I didn't read all comments):<br /><br /><b> One of the most speculative pieces of the Wheel of Time puzzle is the Tower of Genjhi, and the mystery surrounding it. As it would seem, the Finn live within the Tower, the Tower itself exists in a strange other dimension, and there are doorways that, once stepped through, one can enter directly into the Tower through. </b> <br /><br /><br />Is it true that the Finn live in the Tower of Ghenjei as you say in your first paragraph? <br />I thought the Tower was just another doorway to Finnland but not contains Finnland. <br />Just a question...<br /><br /><br /><b> In The Shadow Rising, Jordan writes a chapter in which Mat enters through the doorway and meets the Finns. As everyone is well aware, Robert Jordan is notorious for using slight of hand in his writing: that is, he will show the reader a piece of the puzzle and focus strongly on it, all while slipping other puzzle pieces right by. One does not need to look any further than Taimandred, which was too obvious. He wanted the reader to focus on it, and in the process, he slipped Osan&#8217;gar by. He creates multiple characters who could be Demandred, all while having him remain anonymous. Anyway, the point is made: Jordan is sneaky. If he were not, I would not be writing this theory, as there would be no Theory Post. </b><br /><br />Yes, he is very sneaky! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Btw, I think at the beginning RJ wanted Demandred to be Taim but decided otherwise later...<br /><br /><br /><b> Page 173: &#8220;&#8230; he hurried on past doors dry rotted and aslant, past others only shreds of wood clinging to rusty hinges. The floor had been swept recently, but the air smelled of old dust and mold.&#8221;<br /><br />Hmmm&#8230; The doors are rotting, if they are not completely rotted away already, and yet the floor is swept? It smells of mold, and the place certainly has not been cleaned any time recently, so why was the floor swept? Read on.<br /><br />Page 173: &#8220;[Mat&#8217;s thoughts] Why am I whispering? There&#8217;s nobody down here to hear me.&#8221;<br /><br />Okay, this is hitting us over the head. There is obviously someone else down there with him. Now, I want to remind everyone that Nynaeve and Egwene were in those rooms a few days before, but there is a strange inconsistency: <br /><br />Page 173: &#8220;The room was littered with dim shapes, with crates an barrels and things stacked high against the walls out and into the floor. Dust, too&#8230; He was surprised that Egwene and Nynaeve had not dusted and tidied while they were down here.<br /><br />So, the stairs down are swept clean, and the room that they had spent all of their time in was not? Inconsistent. It would seem that someone else had gone down after Nynaeve and Egwene left. After all, dust settles. If one was to pay close attention to dusty stairs, they would be able to discern fresh footprints from old ones. If Nynaeve and Egwene had left the stairs unswept, and someone had come down days later after the dust had resettled, there would be fresh footprints. Someone else is down there with Mat&#8230; </b><br /><br />First, I don't know if Mat's thinking that nobody is there, is an obvious proof that there must be someone (though it could mean something). It's just a place where you don't speak loud like a church.<br /><br />To the footprints. <br />Maybe a silly question, but why do you think that there are stairs which are swept clean? Stairs are not mentioned. <br />I think it's just a long, maybe winding corridor which leads down, no stairs (I could be wrong, need a quote then..). <br />The floor (apparently the whole!) before the last room with the doorway is swept. <br />You need much time and a broom ( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ) to sweep this corridor. <br />Can't believe someone sweep everything (surely not people like Lan, Rhuarc or Berelain..) to make sure that the footprints are not visible since the risk that someone could detect you there in the time you need to clean everything is much higher, than the risk that someone might see some footprints. It would be much easier just to cover up your trace.<br />Especially since the room with the doorway is dusty and there are many footprints, also from boots as Mat sees. <br />Why didn't the person care about these footprints and use his/her broom there, too?<br />Besides, it's not a crime to go down there, what should be the motive to keep it secret?<br /><br /><br /><b> [Mat steps through the doorway] &#8220;A long time&#8230; A long time yet the seekers come again for answers. The questioners come once more.&#8221;<br /><br />Hmmm&#8230; Does this mean that someone is already in the doorway? Moirane or Rand? They have seen someone else recently&#8230; </b><br /><br />I don't think it means that someone else was already in the doorway and met the Finn. <br />The Finn just imagine that now seekers/questioners (probably Aes Sedai in the AoL after they made the agreement with the Finn) will come again after a long time when they see Mat. <br />Mat is the first one after a long time and they realize or believe that other people will follow now. <br />And don't forget that they can see in the future, maybe they knew that other people will follow Mat. <br />BTW, it could shows us that the Finn can't recognize channelers, if the seekers in the past were really always Aes Sedai and they think Mat is one of them (they believe Mat must know the &quot;agreement&quot; ).<br /><br /><br /><b> Finn: &#8220;It has been long,&#8221; the woman on the right said.<br /><br />&#8220;Very long,&#8221; the woman on the left added.<br /><br />The man nodded. &#8220;Yet they come again.&#8221;<br /><br />Yep. Someone is definitely in there before Mat. Remember, no one went through when Nynaeve and Egwene were down there. They had no idea what the doorway was, or what it did. That would suggest that no one went through it when they were down there. That means that someone beat Mat to it that night. </b><br /><br />I believe that the emphasis that it was such a long time means that Mat was indeed the first person after a long time.   <br /><br /><br /><b> A third time the bell sounded mournfully and the whole room trembled.<br /><br />Strange that Jordan would choose to say that the sound was mournful. Mourning is done when something is lost. Could this bell be someone leaving the doorway? </b><br /><br />But if someone is leaving the Finn should become a bit more calm since there are now not so many people in their realm. But they become even more nervous after this bell. <br /><br />I believe the bell is a warning signal.<br /><br /><b> Twice more the bell tolled&#8230;<br /><br />At this point Mat is being thrown out, but it seems as though someone else- indeed two people- are coming through. </b> <br /><br />Mat is not thrown out when the bells ring, he is still some time in Finnland. <br />Besides, it seems that the bells ring directly one after the other. <br />That would mean both persons went in almost the same time through the doorway. They should have seen each other before entering.<br /><br /><b> So, what can we conclude from the above? Each bell ring, other than the mournful one, is someone entering. We also know that someone had been in the doorway just before Mat arrived, as the guide and the judges were already aware of the questioners returning after so long before Mat came through. We also know that their drug-addiction like response comes from ta&#8217;varen, as they only have two such responses: one to Mat upon his entering and the other to the first bell toll, presumably Rand. It is of the utmost importance that we mark Rand as passing through the doorway after Mat does, and here is the reason. </b><br /><br />No, I think the bells ring to remind the Finn of the danger. <br />The bells ring if the burden is too great, so that they act quicker. <br />After the Finn heard the bell ringing it was clear that another one (another ta'veren) entered Finnland. <br />That's also the reason why the palace shakes and why the bells ring more often and in shorter time periods.<br /><br /><br /><b> <br />Page 173: Footprints crisscrossed the floor, some of them from boots, but no doubt they had had men to shift the heavier items about for them. <br /><br />Nynaeve and Egwene would need men to shift around in a room full of priceless artefacts? Items that are insanely valuable for Aes Sedai and the White Tower? Especially when they could just move anything they want to with the Power. It doesn&#8217;t make any sense to have workers help them. Also, as the first bell is Rand entering, and the second is a mournful tone (someone leaving), and the Finns know that questioners are returning, that must mean that someone was in the room just prior to Mat. Someone wearing boots. Not Rand- he entered after. Not Moiraine- her feet would never be mistaken for a workman&#8217;s. Therefore, we have someone entering into the doorway before Mat, and four people after him: one orgasmic reaction to Rand, and two final bells before Mat was thrown out. One of those final bells was Moiraine and the other is unknown. </b><br /><br />Of course Aes Sedai use workers and don't move everything with the power (especially *angreals). <br />An Aes Sedai has really better things to do than to carry many things with the One Power.<br />Also note that there are many footprints on the floor, some from boots. <br />That means that there are also different boot footprints, not only from one person in my opinion.<br /><br />Besides, it seems you forget one bell/person sometimes (though above you say two entered after Moiraine, and that Moiraine was probably the second bell!), we have 4, without the mournfully. <br />In your logic it means that there must be two unknown persons coming after Mat, Rand and Moraine and one before. Three unknown persons. <br />Of course later you say that Moiriane could be one of the persons who come with the last two bells. <br />Quite confusing. <br />And since the last two bells ring immediatly after each other, these persons entered the Tower at almost the same time and saw each other! <br />Not very likely.<br /><br />To make it clear, you mean that the first bell is Rand, the second Moriane, the third the man with the boots leaving and the last two bells two unknown persons or Moiraine and another person (in any case these two must saw each other!). <br />Don't understand it really. <br /><br /><br /><b> So, what do we now know? We know that Mat, Rand, and Moiraine were not the only people in the doorway that night-that two others had entered in at roughly the same time. Now, the question is, who were those two?<br /><br />Well, we know that one of them was wearing boots- the first one through. We also know that the other unknown entered right after Moiraine- they could not have entered in just before because Moiraine would have seen them ahead of her. So, we have one person wearing boots and the other following Moiraine.  </b><br /><br />Hmm, I thought three others! <br />One before Mat (with boots) and two after (or one with) Moiraine?! <br />Now you mean that Moriane come with the last two bells though at the beginning you said she came with the second bell! <br /><br /><br /><b> My first thought, and the most concrete one, is Lan.<br /><br />Page 95, Moiraine is talking to Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve on why they cannot barge into the doorway: &#8220;You three rush in blindly where Lan and a hundred Warders would tread wearily.&#8221;<br /><br />Hints galore here: she suggests Lan going through the doorway. Also, in the very next chapter (16- Leavetakings), Lan confronts Nynaeve and insists that he accompanies Nynaeve to Tanchico. It is as if he is afraid for her there, as if he needs to be by her side in case something bad happens to her. She refuses him, and he remains behind. Imagine this, though. One of his questions about Nynaeve&#8217;s safety is answered with a statement about her dying at some point if he is not there to help her. That not only explains his reluctance to let her go to Tanchico without him, but it is fulfilled when he rescues her from the sinking ship in aCoS. What his other two questions were, I have no idea. What can be assumed, though, is that one included the raising of the Golden Crane, or the rebirth of Malkier. The other is up in the air.<br /><br />In any event, the two unknowns must be non-PoV characters. If not, we would have obviously seen something in their thoughts. Even Rand, although he keeps his questions secret, acknowledges the fact that he has seen the Finns. This is a major event for him, as it gives his life some direction, just as it did for Mat. So, two mystery characters, one a man wearing boots, the other following Moiraine.<br /><br />Unfortunately, we do not know which of them is Lan: the booted man before Mat, or Moiraine&#8217;s stalker. It would stand to reason that Lan sensed Moiraine&#8217;s mood and followed her, and that would make him her stalker. No other non-PoV character makes sense: no one would be following her at this point.<br /><br />That means that our mystery doorman is a man- a man who wears heavy boots. I do not claim to know who that man is, though I can narrow it down somewhat:<br /><br />- He is not a Darkfriend (shadow questions are dangerous, as are Darkfriends. Remember: Lanfear did not make it out)<br />- He is intelligent to covers his tracks to a certain point (sweeping the stairs)<br />- He is in the Stone at the time<br />- He walks steadily (there is no drag to his step in the footprints, hence a strong stride. No Thom)<br />- He is not a PoV character.<br />- He is skilled at stealth, as neither Moiraine nor her stalker (Lan) saw him after he left and before they entered.<br /><br />Who does that leave, really? My only thought is Rhuarc, who may have seen the other doorway in Rhuidean, though how he knew what the doorway was, where it was, and how to handle the Finns I have no idea. Perhaps it was not him. Any thoughts on who it may </b><br /><br />Ok, you seem to think maybe Lan was the last bell (of the two last bells) and Rhuarc the boot man, first one in Finnland before Mat. <br />But again, you forget one bell, one person then: Rand the first, Moiraine (?) the second, Rhuarc leaving the third, Moiraine (again?) &amp; Lan the fourth and fifth bell. <br />Since Moiraine can't go two times, you miss someone, or I just don't get it...<br />Besides that Moiraine comes very shortly after Rand indicates that she entered not long after Rand, surely before the last two bells.  <br /><br /><b> &#8220;Read and find out,&#8221; he said, and winked. </b><br /><br />He always says that... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Well, I think a very original theory but probably wrong and sometimes confusing.


created: 2003-07-03 21:47:00
subject: <b>Keep it simple stupid....</b>
body:
....its good to be reminded of that once and a while.<br /><br />Some have suggested that the bells are tied to the strain on Finnland as a direct result of more than one Taveren present.  I agree with the later and not the former.<br /><br />The bells should announce, what is being felt and heard by the Finns?  a warning of what is most obvious?  Apparently they can't sense the earthquak,  but they can sense the arrival of someone coming through the doorway.  When someone arrives on my doorstep theres a bell to ring,  which tells me I have company.  <br /><br />Matt went through before Rand and Moraine.  Thats easy.  As Rand and Moraine enter, two things happen,<br /><br />1.  The bells ring<br />2.  The physical strain on Finnland increases.<br /><br />Mat thought he was going alone that night.  He was wrong.  We know that Moraine and Rand went also, don't we?  yes we do.  Isn't it possible others went as well?<br /><br />Isn,t this about the time that Berelain switch from stalking Rand to Perrin.  Was not Slayer present at roughly the same time and isn't it a piece of suspicious writing.  How about Lan allowing Nyneave to go without him to Tanchico?<br /><br />Everyone knows Jordan loves to be sly.  You can see it in every passage,  he can't help himself,  its a habit.  <br /><br />Dashiva couldn't handle a sword because he was a farmer.  The bells don't announce the obvious strain but instead announce visitors....who are currently an enigma.<br /><br />This theory explains things such as Berelain attaching herself to Perrin the way she has.  It explains why Lan let the only thing worth living as far as he was concerned go to the known vipers nest Tanchico.<br /><br />This is a theory because Jordan set it up to be.<br /><br />Good work GG!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 23:19:38
subject: <b>it was NOT Slayer</b>
body:
Why does everyone think it was Slayer?<br /><br />The timeline doesn't fit at all.<br /><br />I am checking the chronology website right now, as I write.<br /><br />The dates:<br /><br />On Saven 12, Moiraine reported that Joiya and Amico were killed  in the attack, which happened the day before.  Therefore they died on the 11.<br /><br />Mat did not enter Finnland until Saven 15.<br /><br />This is a FOUR day difference.<br /><br />So whoever said it happened on the same day is way off base.<br /><br />Therefore, I don't think Slayer was this mystery person.<br /><br />The only way to explain around it would be if he waited in the Stone for 4 days.  But why would he do that if he could have just entered the ter'angreal right after the attack.<br /><br />It was not Slayer.  Sorry.<br /><br />It was Berelain.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-03 23:35:21
subject: <b>Thanks Matrimony!</b>
body:
I wasn't sure on the timeline.  Its nice to have a resource like yourself thats willing to do the grunt work.  I'm too lazy.<br /><br />SLAYER'S OUT AND BERELAIN'S IN!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 03:25:22
subject: <b>Why the bells don't announce people entering or leaving</b>
body:
The main point of this theory is that a bell tolls if someone enters Finnland or (mournfully) when someone leaves.<br /><br />That is wrong in my opinion. Besides the things I said in my first comment I want to show why it is a warning signal.<br /><br />The first bell tolled. Then the Finn realize &quot;the strain&quot;, but since they seem to like it they say there is yet time to answer Mat's questions. <br />I believe that at this point Rand already entered Finnland, so the bell doesn't announce Rand, but is a warning of the reaction of Rand's and Mat's ta'veren influence which seems to be very dangerous for Finnland. <br /><br />Then the second bell tolled, &quot;louder this time&quot; and the remor starts. <br />Note that the bell doesn't toll in the same way! <br />If it would be a bell that announces people it should always toll in the same way of course. <br />I don't know any bell which changes only because more people arrive. That makes not much sense. <br />Now with the bell a tremor starts. The Finn become anxious want Mat to hurry because &quot;the strain is too great&quot;.<br />All this shows that the bell didn't toll because Moiraine (or someone else) arrived but becomes louder, more violent to remind the Finn of the danger because they like &quot;the savor&quot; of ta'veren too much. <br />When the first bell tolled the Finn decided to go on because the feeling is too nice and it was such a long time (they are in a way &quot;hungry&quot; ), but now with the second bell they realiz the seriousness of the situation, that they probably could destroy Finnland if it takes too long time, because of the tremor created through the influence of two ta'veren.<br /><br />Then the third bell tolled, mournfully and the entire room trembeled. The sound of the bell changed again. <br />Green Gaidin says it is because someone left Finnland. <br />But why should a bell ring if someone leave the Finn? Why should they care? They have enough people who bring seekers back to the doorway, also against their will like in Mat's case. And a leaving seeker can never come again. <br />So there is no sense in a bell that tells them that someone left.<br />No, it's again the warning bell because Mat and Rand were too much time together in Finnland. As a Finn says: You must go before it's too late!&quot;. The tremor becomes stronger. <br /><br />Then the Finn bring Mat back to the doorway and he hears twice more the bells. Now it's like an earthquake. Really dangerous. That doesn't mean that two other people arrived but that it was really too much time of two ta'veren in Finnland. Note that always the bell anounces the tremor. The bell tolls to warn the Finn of the influence of Rand and Mat which causes the tremor. <br />That's the only explaination which makes sense.<br /><br />Some said that the bells must announce people otherwise the Finn wouldn't know about a seeker. <br />But if you read the passage you should realize that a Finn already waited at the doorway to receive e.g. Mat. <br />So the bell didin't need to toll for a new guest since the Finn simply see when someone arrives!<br /><br />Finally note that no bell tolls when Mat arrives. Why not? Because he is the only ta'veren in Finnland at this time.<br /><br />Therefore the idea that always when a bell tolls someone leaves or enters Finnland is wrong.<br /><br />As I pointed out in my first comment the dust argument doesn't show anything, too. <br />It's really unlikely that someone like Lan, Rhuarc or Berelain swept the whole corridor to hide their footprints.<br /><br />Also the RJ's &quot;RAFO&quot; means not much. Maybe there was someone in Finnland we didin't know yet and that the answers he/she heard influenced their behaviour. <br />But we simply have no evidence for it. In the same way we could say that someone talked with Min or had a foretelling from an Aes Sedai which happened off-screen and that's the reason of their behaviour. No proofs. <br /><br />Therefore this theory is wrong. <br />Besides, as I pointed out in my first comment, I think even if we follow the theory's logic the title and some parts are wrong. <br />The title e.g. must be &quot;Five in the Door- Why Mat, Rand and Moiraine had company&quot; because we have four bells which would announce 4 people (and one bell telling that someone leaves..) plus Mat who is already in Finnland (and no bell tolls when he arrives..). Five people in Finnland not four.<br /><br />But maybe someone can explain me all this.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />


created: 2003-07-04 07:49:24
subject: <b>just one problem...</b>
body:
an interesting theory i must admit with some convincing evidence, not to mention apparent support 'straight from the horse's mouth' as it were but i see one problem. it is actually quite likely that Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene would have had help to move the larger objects in the hold as anyone who has spent any time at the white tower would know better than to Channel around a load of unknown ter'angreal! assuming that they did not all suddenly develop a death wish it is entirely possible that the boot markings on the floor were from workmen. <br />otherwise, very good.<br /><br />Ezma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-04 13:31:42
subject: <b>Dear Etzel,</b>
body:
I'm willing to bet that you had no clue Osangar was posing as Dashiva until it was obvious.  You can see exactly what Jordan wants you to see thats obvious.<br /><br />Jordan has you my friend Etzel.  Have you seen the movie the Matrix?  You are in the Matrix Etzel and you have not a clue.  I'm not Neo, and there is no way to save you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 17:08:13
subject: <b>calm down columbo</b>
body:
just cause your cousin writes the theory which i personally think is wrong,no need spit the dummy!!<br /><br />i think yous guys write mostly well researched theory but too be honest how many have come right or near to correect its mostly drivel.<br /><br />Though very well thought out no-one is entering the doorway its just because of two tavern a warning<br /><br />get over it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 19:15:25
subject: <b>A response, a clue, an adress, and a new idea.</b>
body:
Etzel:<br /><br />Good to see you in here at last! I was worried, seeing you on the other theories, that you were not interested in the winner of the 1000th! This was quite a shock to me, of course, because of your seemingly inexhaustable reserves of arguments, illogical though sometimes they seem. Anyway, good to see you back and now to your points!<br /><br /><b>Is it true that the Finn live in the Tower of Ghenjei as you say in your first paragraph? <br />I thought the Tower was just another doorway to Finnland but not contains Finnland. <br />Just a question...</b><br /><br />Well, hard to say. I don't believe that finnland is entirely within the tower, but it would seem that Mat was walking through an alternate dimension Tower, from his description. At any rate, Bir. says that the finn are within the tower, so whether that means that it is a base of sorts or their entire existance is up to debate.<br /><br /><b>Btw, I think at the beginning RJ wanted Demandred to be Taim but decided otherwise later...</b><br /><br />I couldn't agree more. And he says he never reads theories.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>First, I don't know if Mat's thinking that nobody is there, is an obvious proof that there must be someone (though it could mean something). It's just a place where you don't speak loud like a church</b><br /><br />Just a byproduct of Jordan's writing. I truly mean no offense here, but I know that English is not your first language and so I can't say whether or not you've read WoT in your native tongue, whether the translation keeps RJ's writing style intact, or whether you got all of the english version. This is, of course, not concrete, but if you know Jordan you know that there was something up...<br /><br /><b>To the footprints. <br />Maybe a silly question, but why do you think that there are stairs which are swept clean? Stairs are not mentioned. <br />I think it's just a long, maybe winding corridor which leads down, no stairs (I could be wrong, need a quote then..). <br />The floor (apparently the whole!) before the last room with the doorway is swept. <br />You need much time and a broom (  ) to sweep this corridor. <br />Can't believe someone sweep everything (surely not people like Lan, Rhuarc or Berelain..) to make sure that the footprints are not visible since the risk that someone could detect you there in the time you need to clean everything is much higher, than the risk that someone might see some footprints. It would be much easier just to cover up your trace.<br />Especially since the room with the doorway is dusty and there are many footprints, also from boots as Mat sees. <br />Why didn't the person care about these footprints and use his/her broom there, too?<br />Besides, it's not a crime to go down there, what should be the motive to keep it secret?</b><br /><br />To tell you the truth, I just conotatively took the passage to be stairs, going down and all, but now that I re-read it it seems that it was a corridor. However, the point remains the same. <br /><br />Yes, i can definetely see someone who doesn't want to be followed sweeping the corridor. Truth told, it doesn't have to be an indication of one of the above mentioned, but I know that if I didn't want to be seen I would do something like that. Yes, there are many footprints in the room Mat sees, but by the time a stalker found them, they would be confused with all of the others, and so the point becomes moot. One does not tend to look too closely at the last room on the right, whereas they would look closely at fresh footprints leading to the riches of the Stone and the second largest cache of angreal in the world. <br /><br />&quot;It would be much easier just to cover up your trace.&quot;<br /><br />Um, no, it wouldn't be. In the forest, yes, but on a stone floor covered with dust? Not unless you're an AS.<br /><br /><b>I don't think it means that someone else was already in the doorway and met the Finn. <br />The Finn just imagine that now seekers/questioners (probably Aes Sedai in the AoL after they made the agreement with the Finn) will come again after a long time when they see Mat. <br />Mat is the first one after a long time and they realize or believe that other people will follow now. <br />And don't forget that they can see in the future, maybe they knew that other people will follow Mat. <br />BTW, it could shows us that the Finn can't recognize channelers, if the seekers in the past were really always Aes Sedai and they think Mat is one of them (they believe Mat must know the &quot;agreement&quot; ).</b><br /><br />Here, again, I question your grasp of the language. Once again, I am NOT trying to insult you here, just trying to show you the finer points of English. First off, seekerS is plural, meaning more than one. Sure, they COULD have seen that more people were coming above Mat's head, though there is not even a sniff of evidence for that idea (it's reaching, to be blunt). However, the useage of the plural shows us that, yes, there have been more people recently. If he was the first, they would not say: &quot;the questioners come again,&quot; they would say: &quot;A questioner comes to us after so long,&quot; or &quot;A questioner graces us,&quot; or somesuch. <br /><br />Now, to forestall arguments, I realize that they don't speak english in randland, and I also realize that this scene is technically a translation of a translation of a translation, but come on people; we have to get it into our heads that this is a fictional tale written in modern day english. Mat was not the first since the AoL, or any recent time.<br /><br />Now, I don't know for sure whether or not the 'agreement' was made in the AoL, though I believe it to be so. After all, prominent languages change over time, and there have already been two major language changes (and therefore 3 major languages) used in the Third Age. that leads me to believe that the agreement was made in the AoL. However, why only AS would be allowed to use it is beyond me. Doesn't make any sense, though there were obviously restrictions. Anyway, why the fact that they can/can't recognise channelers is irrelevant.<br /><br /><b>I believe that the emphasis that it was such a long time means that Mat was indeed the first person after a long time.</b><br /><br />Once again, your use of language fails. Instead of saying: &quot;The man nodded. &#8220;Yet they come again.&#8221;&quot; they would say &quot;Yet one has come again,&quot; or perhaps &quot;A questioner has come after so long.&quot; See?<br /><br /><b>But if someone is leaving the Finn should become a bit more calm since there are now not so many people in their realm. But they become even more nervous after this bell. <br /><br />I believe the bell is a warning signal.</b><br /><br />As per Moiraine's explination/lecture to Rand and Mat after they all emerge, it would seem that ta'varen create strain, not normal people. <br /><br />And as to the bells being warnings, I'll get to that in a general statement following this message.<br /><br /><b>Mat is not thrown out when the bells ring, he is still some time in Finnland. <br />Besides, it seems that the bells ring directly one after the other. <br />That would mean both persons went in almost the same time through the doorway. They should have seen each other before entering.</b><br /><br />I'm confused by your first sentence, but I take it to mean that Mat doesn't hear his own parting bell. Why would he? He would be out of the door by then.<br /><br />Two people going in one after another. Why not? Lan and Moiraine?<br /><br /><b>To make it clear, you mean that the first bell is Rand, the second Moriane, the third the man with the boots leaving and the last two bells two unknown persons or Moiraine and another person (in any case these two must saw each other!). <br />Don't understand it really. </b><br /><br />Well, yes. The first is Rand, the second someone (possibly Moiraine) and then someone leaving, then, yeah, two more, one possibly Moiraine. <br /><br /><b>Now you mean that Moriane come with the last two bells though at the beginning you said she came with the second bell!</b><br /><br />Look up the english word: suggestion.<br /><br /><b>Well, I think a very original theory but probably wrong and sometimes confusing. </b><br /><br />Original, yes, wrong? I don't think so. Confusing? Only to you.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;p hart&quot;:<br /><br /><b>just cause your cousin writes the theory which i personally think is wrong,no need spit the dummy!!<br /><br />i think yous guys write mostly well researched theory but too be honest how many have come right or near to correect its mostly drivel.<br /><br />Though very well thought out no-one is entering the doorway its just because of two tavern a warning<br /><br />get over it</b><br /><br />This seems to be written from the point of view and with the same sentence structure as Etzel. Something you both want to tell us?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Addressing the bells=strain idea:<br /><br />Of course, as there is no concrete proof either way, I can't be 100% sure, but I can tell you that I am 98% sure.<br /><br />Look at it as if you were a finn. Too many people are coming in at once, causing the entire place to shake like an earthquake. &quot;I have an idea! I'll put in a bell to warn me!&quot; This makes absolutely zero sense. I would think that they can realize the danger if the house is coming down, right? <br /><br />Name me one company that has made money selling earthquake alarms. &quot;WAKE UP. THIS IS AN EARTH QUAKE. STAND IN A DOORWAY.&quot; Nope. People can instictivly tell when there is a rupture in the foundation of a tower, and the tower is threatening to fall. It is very simple.<br /><br />Now, on the other hand, it DOES make sense to put a bell in to announce when someone enters the doorway. Say, for testing purposes. &quot;Oh, okay, four people make the walls shake. Good to know that.&quot;<br /><br />That way, they can judge just how much danger there is by knowing how many people there are in the tower. The other does not make a hair of sense.<br /><br />No! No arguing! Not one hair!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />A new idea: <br /><br />Well, as I began to say to Etzel above, this theory is just that: a theory. It is not proven, and there are always a few kinks to work out. After all, I'm not RJ. Now, there seems to be some speculation as to whether or not Slayer went through the doorway in the Stone. As matrimony said, the timeline doesn't fit unless Slayer, for no reason, stuck around the Stone for a few days. However, could the mournful sound be someone entering through the doorway in TAR? What about through the Tower 'three times around' deal? It could be Slayer then, and a warning from another floor of the Tower. After all, it certianly seems as though there are at least 2 distinct levels: the curvy one and the straight line one. Perhaps Slayer could have gone through another entrance and made the mournful sound? Hmmm....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 19:31:47
subject: <b>Aah...</b>
body:
Aah, but we're not arguing... we're debating, and its ever so much fun!<br /><br />Anywho. I've only got one more point to make right now.<br /><br />&quot;Now, on the other hand, it DOES make sense to put a bell in to announce when someone enters the doorway. Say, for testing purposes. &quot;Oh, okay, four people make the walls shake. Good to know that.&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Well, sure it would make sense. But it doesn't make sense in that each time the bell tolls, the walls/floor/everything else shakes like mad, and it gets worse as it progresses.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 19:47:22
subject: <b>Well, Columbo...</b>
body:
I see that you are a strange person! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seriously, I don't want to upset you or your cousin (is that true, is Green Gaidin your cousin?). <br />It's certainly Green Gaidin's best theory so far! He obviously thought some time about it, and it's nicely written.<br /><br />But on a second look you and everybody else should realize that the evidences the theory presents is rather weak or not exist.<br /><br />First, the whole bit about the dust and Mat thinking that no one is there with him, doesn't prove anything as I pointed out.<br /><br />Also the Finn talking to Mat in the plural doesn't mean that someone else visited Finnland shortly before Mat.<br /><br />Finally the bells are obviously a warning mechanism. <br /><br />I pointed out why I think that all these evidences (and RJ saying RAFO doesn't mean much!) don't support the theory, now I would like to hear from the people who agree with this theory why I'm wrong, so that we can start a discussion (and I don't want to read something about Matrix... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />). <br /><br />Again, it's possible that someone off-screen, e.g. Berelain, entered the doorway, too. But we have no proof yet, including this theory.<br /><br />What really is a negative thing about this theory are the mistakes. There are little mistakes, like the first paragraph about the Tower of Ghenjei or a bit later the stairs, while only a corridor is mentioned. <br />That's ok, such mistakes happen. <br /><br />But as i pointed out the huge mistake in this theory is that it doesn't follow it's own logic. <br />Although the bells toll 4 times plus one time mournfully, it seems that Green Gaidin thinks only two other persons where in Finnland, while it should be three (on the other hand he says at one point that two other persons entered Finnland..).  <br /><br />You even see this mistake in the title of this theory. <br />To make the title right, it should be &quot;Five in the Door...&quot;. <br />Of course you don't have the nice rhyme &quot;Four-Door&quot; then, but at least the title fits with the theory. <br />And to make it really accurate and even get a rhyme I suggest the title: &quot;Five in the Door (and one already gone)-Why Mat, Rand and Moiraine had company&quot;.<br />Then it would fit with the theory at least...  <br /><br />So, it's not that I don't like the theory, the idea is original, no doubt. Even more important, there is much to discuss about this theory. Therefore I say it's a good theory, but I'm also sure it's wrong and has some mistakes.


created: 2003-07-04 20:08:32
subject: <b>no GG</b>
body:
considering i'm scottish and etzel is german?i think?<br /><br />No i personally have nothing to tell you apart from i think the theory is wrong howerver well written it is also as etzel points out himelf he doesn'tknow you are cousins.<br /><br />I do from your farewell posts etc as well as MC but you couldn't keep away (neither can i) <br /><br />i just think people are looking too deep into things with circumspect evidence and loose interpations although i enjoy reading them,are ultimaley wrong.<br /><br />Now stop insulting etzel with matrix mince and confusing him with a fat alcoholic scotsmanplease im sure he would appreciate it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 20:12:35
subject: <b>p hart,</b>
body:
Columbo is always calm, don't you know that?  Have you anything to add to this debate?  Step up or leave it to the bigboys.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 20:34:48
subject: <b>Yes, lay off the accents</b>
body:
GG, Etzel's too polite to say it for himself, but his English is pretty damn good. I don't know about you (maybe being Canadian you are fluent in French?), but I occasionally find it hard reading newspapers in my second language (Italian), yet he reads books and argues about them in his. So German has a different sentence structure to English - so what? You only really notice from Etzel's postings if you're looking for it - let it go, rather than making (several) snide comments.<br /><br />As to the arguments, I think he is making some good points, which will not surprise you if you saw my (long) list of problems with this theory, enjoyable though it was to read. You say your theory is only a suggestion, but then argue against every objection as if the other person is insane to consider raising it. If you deal with the arguements, rather than re-asserting your own view or insulting someone's grammar, you will generally find the opposition to a theory is as cogently argued as the theory itself.<br /><br />Sorry to have a rant, but it's the best way to get my views across speedily.


created: 2003-07-04 20:39:49
subject:
<b>Ah, the author himself! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
First, really congratulations for the 1000th post! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> Just a byproduct of Jordan's writing. I truly mean no offense here, but I know that English is not your first language and so I can't say whether or not you've read WoT in your native tongue, whether the translation keeps RJ's writing style intact, or whether you got all of the english version. This is, of course, not concrete, but if you know Jordan you know that there was something up... </b><br /><br />I have the original books and &quot;it seemed a place for quiet, though&quot; listens to me as if it's an old, &quot;holy&quot; place where it's just inappropriate to speak loud. Mat feels that. <br />In my view it's not a hint that someone <i> must be </i> there when Mat says there is nobody down here.<br /><br /><b> Yes, i can definetely see someone who doesn't want to be followed sweeping the corridor. Truth told, it doesn't have to be an indication of one of the above mentioned, but I know that if I didn't want to be seen I would do something like that. Yes, there are many footprints in the room Mat sees, but by the time a stalker found them, they would be confused with all of the others, and so the point becomes moot. One does not tend to look too closely at the last room on the right, whereas they would look closely at fresh footprints leading to the riches of the Stone and the second largest cache of angreal in the world. </b><br /><br />Really, how do you sweep a corridor? You need something to sweep, e.g. a broom. Can you imagine someone of the possible candidates for the unknown persons who are mentioned in your theory and the discussion sweeping a corridor? I think not.  <br />And note that Mat doesn't say that the boot track in the room looks fresh. <br /> <br /><br /><b> &quot;It would be much easier just to cover up your trace.&quot;<br /><br />Um, no, it wouldn't be. In the forest, yes, but on a stone floor covered with dust? Not unless you're an AS. </b><br /><br />I mean that you can easier blur (hope that's the right word) the dust so that no one sees your track. <br /><br /><b> Here, again, I question your grasp of the language. Once again, I am NOT trying to insult you here, just trying to show you the finer points of English. First off, seekerS is plural, meaning more than one. Sure, they COULD have seen that more people were coming above Mat's head, though there is not even a sniff of evidence for that idea (it's reaching, to be blunt). However, the useage of the plural shows us that, yes, there have been more people recently. If he was the first, they would not say: &quot;the questioners come again,&quot; they would say: &quot;A questioner comes to us after so long,&quot; or &quot;A questioner graces us,&quot; or somesuch. </b><br /><br />Hmm, we have also a plural in Germany... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />I believe that the Finn think that a new era of seekers coming to ask questions has begun when they see with Mat a human after such long time. <br />So they are happy and say in other words: &quot;Ah! The questioners come again! Her is the first one.&quot;<br /><br /><b> Now, to forestall arguments, I realize that they don't speak english in randland, and I also realize that this scene is technically a translation of a translation of a translation, but come on people; we have to get it into our heads that this is a fictional tale written in modern day english. Mat was not the first since the AoL, or any recent time. </b><br /><br />I believe Mat was the first one since the AoL. Otherwise the Finn comment about the long time makes no sense.<br /><br /><b> Now, I don't know for sure whether or not the 'agreement' was made in the AoL, though I believe it to be so. After all, prominent languages change over time, and there have already been two major language changes (and therefore 3 major languages) used in the Third Age. that leads me to believe that the agreement was made in the AoL. However, why only AS would be allowed to use it is beyond me. Doesn't make any sense, though there were obviously restrictions. Anyway, why the fact that they can/can't recognise channelers is irrelevant. </b><br /><br />The agreement was made in the AoL, I think there is something in the Guide about it. I just thought it would be interesting that the Finn probably can't recognize a channeler, can't sense the One Power... *shrugs*<br /><br /><b> Once again, your use of language fails. Instead of saying: &quot;The man nodded. &#8220;Yet they come again.&#8221;&quot; they would say &quot;Yet one has come again,&quot; or perhaps &quot;A questioner has come after so long.&quot; See? </b><br /><br />No, they believe that Mat is just the first one of many seekers who will surely come now in their opinion. Maybe they just wish that more seekers come since they like the savor so much.<br /><br /><b> I'm confused by your first sentence, but I take it to mean that Mat doesn't hear his own parting bell. Why would he? He would be out of the door by then. </b><br /><br />I meant that Mat is still some time in Finnland after the last two bells toll. <br /><br /><b> Two people going in one after another. Why not? Lan and Moiraine? </b><br /><br />At another paasage you said that probably Moiraine was the second bell. Besides, why doesn't Lan come from Finnland with or shortly after Moiraine then?<br />And as I said it can't be that Moiraine was one of the last two bells because she came not long after Rand through the doorway. It was not enough time.<br /><br /><b> Well, yes. The first is Rand, the second someone (possibly Moiraine) and then someone leaving, then, yeah, two more, one possibly Moiraine. </b><br /><br />So two times possible Moiraine? <br />Moiraine can only be the second bell. <br />But then we have no couple that would fit for the two last bells.<br />But you didn't explain why the loudness of the bell change. (the only explaination is a warning signal..).<br /><br /><b> Look up the english word: suggestion. </b><br /><br />So you don't know it? If I follow your logic Moiraine can only be the second bell, of course then we have the problems for the last two bells, but it's your theory, you should explain it...<br /><br /><b> Original, yes, wrong? I don't think so. Confusing? Only to you. </b><br /><br />E.g. the title. Why did you choose &quot;Four in the Door&quot;? It really confuses me.<br /><br /><b> This seems to be written from the point of view and with the same sentence structure as Etzel. Something you both want to tell us? </b><br /><br />Is my sentence structure really strange? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-07-04 20:48:21
subject: <b>Jordanian...</b>
body:
...your getting as excited as the rest of us.  <br /><br />I read your earlier post and you made some good points.  Jordan has made me second guess everything.  Thats why I love this series.  <br /><br />Its not as straight forward as Etzel puts it.  Mat sensed someone before he entered the doorway.  Moraine asked if Perrin was in finnland as well.  Theres more to this than meets the eye.<br /><br />Mat thought he was the only one in Finnland at the time as I'm sure Rand and Moraine thought.  This theory is just that, a theory.  The quotes you use to support your side have been used to support ours.  <br /><br />Whats wrong with giving the needle once and a while.  Its fun and no harm is intended.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 20:54:36
subject: <b>So GG, how many people do you think are in the doorway?</b>
body:
Cause from what you argue, there are people in there before Mat, at least one and according to your theory ever bell, except for the mournful one is someone entering.  There are six bells, not counting the mournful one, so that means that there were at least eight people in the doorway, that's assuming there was only one person in there before Mat.<br /><br />So I guess the next question is where are the other four, since one of them left before Mat did and had plenty of time to get out of the storage room.  This is especially confusing to me since four people, according to your later arguements, should be causing further earthquakes inside Finnland.  It's not like Rand, Mat and Moiraine just left the storage room, they should have at least seen one of the other people come out, since they were discussing things for a few minutes.<br /><br />On to the bells being the alarm system rather than an entrance bell.  In one of your responses you state that it would make sense to have a bell that indicates how many people is too many, however, there is no indication that too many people in Finnland have any ill effect on Finnland, we do know however that ta'veren can tear the connection from Moiraine.  You're right, having a bell as a warning isn't the greatest of ideas, however, the fourth bell, Mat describes as, &quot;It was the <b>room</b> itself that pealed, the walls and floor quivering, nearly taking Mat and his attackers off his feet.&quot;  What if the ringing is merely a side effect of the shaking of the building, the more severe the shaking gets the more the bell sound comes about.  In other words there is no bell, Mat and you are making the assumption there is one, when it is possible that something else is making the noise.  Also, since the Finn always have someone at the entrance to meet someone when they enter they will always know how many &quot;seekers&quot; are in there, thus making your arguement for the bell as unlikely as actually installing the bell as part of the detection for the weaking of the connection.<br /><br />As for the corridor, it's more likely that servants come down to clean the corridor, but are afraid to go into the storage rooms.  We know from Silvie(aka Lanfear) that servants clean inside the Heart of the Stone, so it seems likely that they would clean the corridors leading up to the storage area.  Or if you don't like that idea, it's likely that the wonder girls in their exploration, plus men to move things, stirred up all the dust in the corridor and it settled either inside the storage rooms or along the edges of the corridor.  To me it makes no sense for someone to have swept the corridor but not bothered with the storage room as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 21:14:57
subject: <b>3000 years...</b>
body:
....along time to stand and wait for someone to arrive.  Jim do you stand at your front door waiting for someone.  The doorbell is quite convinient isn't it Jim?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-04 23:29:45
subject: <b>Well, this ties it up.</b>
body:
This is, if all goes as planned, the 100th response to this theory. This ties the all time blackboard response record, and it has, thus far, been a great discussion! Let's keep it up, and see who gets #101 and breaks the record!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 01:07:18
subject: <b>Aw hell</b>
body:
I can't stand the build up. Here it is: post 101 and a new record <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 01:36:11
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
You said:<br /><br />Here, again, I question your grasp of the language...First off, seekerS is plural, meaning more than one. However, the useage of the plural shows us that, yes, there have been more people recently. If he was the first, they would not say: &quot;the questioners come again,&quot; they would say: &quot;A questioner comes to us after so long,&quot; or &quot;A questioner graces us,&quot; or somesuch. <br /><br />Perhaps it isn't Etzel that doesn't grasp the language, but you. It is perfectly acceptable to say &quot;the questioners come again,&quot; when the &quot;questioners&quot; are blanket statements referring to those who come to question ie other people. If anyone is reaching for something, it's you. You're the typical person who interprets something incorrectly and tries to argue otherwise just for the sake of trying to prove your own theory.<br />Your probably going to say something like &quot;well i majored in English in college.&quot; And I'll just laugh because it shows how much of a waste of time that was!<br />I think Etzel's arguments are more convincing than yours. Sorry man. Good theory though. You got me thinking that there was someone else there (cough slayer cough cough).


created: 2003-07-05 02:24:58
subject: <b>CleanToe</b>
body:
Well, I won't go into my accomplishments in the English language here, save to say that they are many. However, it is you, not I, who is wrong. It is very simple: an 's' at the end of a word makes it plural- more than one. &quot;The questionerS come again&quot; indicates that more than one questioner is coming again. Seeing as there is no evidence WHATSOEVER that the finns can foretell who is going to come next, or whether or not there indeed is someone about to come, the argument that it COULD BE holds precisely zero H2O. They can read farther along their questioner's ('s: belonging to) thread and see the future, but I have yet to see any proof that they can foresee everything. Something like Min, would you not agree?<br /><br />Sorry. Nice try. Whatever you want to say. The language proves me right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 03:03:44
subject: <b>the difference between the Finns and I</b>
body:
I actually have other things to do.  It seems like the Finn don't, and I would think that the longer that it has been since the last person the more anxious they would be for the next.  Also, it's only been about 300 years since the last person went through.  the last person through was a First of Mayene who then traded it to Tear in hopes of keeping good relations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 03:20:31
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
This is becomming like your Theory orgasm...<br /><br />100+ replies + the 1,000 post.<br /><br />Damn dood--- you've are the resident theory orgasm guy now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 04:16:17
subject: <b>Some points...</b>
body:
To GG,<br /><br /><b> Look at it as if you were a finn. Too many people are coming in at once, causing the entire place to shake like an earthquake. &quot;I have an idea! I'll put in a bell to warn me!&quot; This makes absolutely zero sense. I would think that they can realize the danger if the house is coming down, right? </b><br /><br />Well, the bell already warns the Finn before the place shakes. If they had hurried up and brought Mat to the doorway, there wouldn't be an earthquake. <br />So the bell tolls even louder to make the Finn realize their danger, especially as I said, since they so much appreciate or a addicted to the savor of the seekers.<br /><br />Besides, you also don't say that a fire alarm is senseless because people should realize that they or their house are burning. <br />The same with a bombing alarm. Of course you feel if a bomb goes down on your house but if you are warned before the bombing starts you can save your life.<br /><br /><b> Name me one company that has made money selling earthquake alarms. &quot;WAKE UP. THIS IS AN EARTH QUAKE. STAND IN A DOORWAY.&quot; Nope. People can instictivly tell when there is a rupture in the foundation of a tower, and the tower is threatening to fall. It is very simple. </b><br /><br />It warns you BEFORE the earthquake starts. Very simple.<br /><br /><b> Now, on the other hand, it DOES make sense to put a bell in to announce when someone enters the doorway. Say, for testing purposes. &quot;Oh, okay, four people make the walls shake. Good to know that.&quot; </b><br /><br />But why does the loudness of the bell changes? <br />It should be always the same. <br />And why a bell for a leaving person?<br /><br />Besides, as I said a Finn already waits at the doorway to look if someone arrives. No need to wake whole Finnland with a big bell.<br /><br />And at which point do you think the bell tolls when a person enters? It's important because Mat doesn't hear a bell when he enters or when he leaves Finnland though a bell tolls surely a few moments.<br /><br /><b> That way, they can judge just how much danger there is by knowing how many people there are in the tower. The other does not make a hair of sense.<br />No! No arguing! Not one hair!</b><br /><br />No, normal people are not dangerous for Finnland. <br />It's ta'veren. So the bell warns you not hold them to long in your land. <br />That makes sense. <br /><br /><br />To Jim,<br /><br /><b> Cause from what you argue, there are people in there before Mat, at least one and according to your theory ever bell, except for the mournful one is someone entering. There are six bells, not counting the mournful one, so that means that there were at least eight people in the doorway, that's assuming there was only one person in there before Mat. </b><br /><br />You are right there seems to be another bell. <br />But then I count 5 bells and one mournfull bell (and no bell for Mat!).<br />That means there are six people at the same time in Finnland and one left it already:&quot;Six in the Door (and one already gone)... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br />Four unknown people! <br /><br />Really are almost all people in the Stone at this time in Finnland? That just can't be!<br /><br /><br />About the plural (seekers),<br /><br />It's not strange that the Finn use the plural.<br /><br />Imagine a shop, which had a long time no customers, the shop owner stands there, it's nothing to earn. <br />Then after this very long time finally a man enters the shop again and wants to buy something. <br />The shop owner is glad and screams to his wife:&quot;Look, the hard, long time is over, we have customers again!&quot; <br /><br />Well, with this little story I wanted to demonstrate that it's not unusual to use the plural even if there is only one person before you, if you think/hope that now many will follow this guy. <br />And that's the case here with the Finn.<br />


created: 2003-07-05 07:12:50
subject: <b>Rebut</b>
body:
You aren't the only person who's taken English classes (and I'm not talking about English-as-a-second-language). You're right. The 's' in &quot;questioners&quot; IS plural. I never denied that. Yet it can also be a term describing an entire entity--in this case the 'entity' are those who seek answers from the Finns.<br />Who do you think we refer to when we say the Knights Templars or Knights Hospitalers? What about the Saracens? You CAN if you want say the &quot;Saracen army/empire,&quot; but you can also just say &quot;Saracens.&quot; (note the 's' at the end) I'm still not getting how you are denying you can do that. You're being incredibley stubborn. You know you're denying it now just because you've convinced yourself you're right. I'd like to see your rebuttal (if you have one, it'd be wise to just agree that you erred).


created: 2003-07-05 07:48:24
subject: <b>one thing</b>
body:
GG don't let ypur head swell too much!Many accomplishments in english hah!<br /><br />get hold of your self your what 20?<br /><br />Big boys sorry is there a clique for &quot;the theory posters&quot; how many have come right?Not a lot!<br /><br />any way one other point about the way the finns speak remember rand needed a translator and mat didn't so,they were speaking in the old tongue.Which may or may not be relevant but as i consider this theory well written drivel i won't be making a counter argument,i let Jim do that as i beleive the same way as him.<br /><br />best theory yet maybe from GG but not in the TP.<br /><br />Stop reading tomuch into these things its wasting your time.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 13:18:39
subject: <b>Dirtytoe....</b>
body:
...apparently you didn't pay attention in english class.  What was the problem sit to close to the chalk board?<br /><br />Following the logic put forth against this theory, it would seem because Rand and Moraine came out after Mat that they would have went in after him.  Based on Mat's encounter with the Finns and the way it was written, we have someone or someones yet unidentified who arrived  before Mat.<br /><br />Berelain and or Lan still seem likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 13:35:08
subject: <b>Why aren't more people listening to Jim?</b>
body:
People have got some stuff wrong, and Jim has done a good job of pointing stuff out.<br /><br />Two problems witht the theory that I see:<br /><br />As Jim pointed out, the bells are neither comings and goings nor warnings, but rather a natural result of the strain of having multiple ta'veren through the doorway.<br /><br />Alos, as someone pointed out way far above, neither Rand nor Moiraine seemed to expect seeing anyone when they get out of the doorway. Mat has his lantern set up on a crate. They would have noticed it. Thus they entered before Mat, so again, the bells do not indicate Rand entering.<br /><br />Isn't that all that needs to be said?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 13:51:44
subject: <b>Bobsledi,</b>
body:
What are you trying to peddle?  The room was crammed with old junk and your suggesting that Rand and Moraine would have noticed a latern.  I 've seen some weak stuff posted  and thats about the weakest yet.  Yes Jim has posted some good points.  He usually does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 15:42:25
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Its very, very dark down there underground, wouldn't you notice a lantern sitting next to your destination, even if you did have a nice little light of your own?<br /><br />I know I would, it would be kinda obvious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 17:15:42
subject: <b>Common sense demands that....</b>
body:
you don't leave a lattern on in a dusty storeroom for fear of starting a fire.  I'm not sure but I don't think there is a sprinkler system installed in the stone.  Also the strain on Finnland was nill until the first bell ( Rand entering).  Hope this helps.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 17:18:28
subject: <b>Uh...Columbo...</b>
body:
You don't seem to write the English language too well either, bud, so why don't you lay the hell of others who don't also. You live in Canada, correct? Then one can assume that you should speak the country's native language much better than you seem to.<br /><br />Further, hells yes Rand or Moiraine or whoever else may have entered the doorway would have noticed a LIT lantern sitting in the middle of the room. I don't see how you can argue this point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hedgehog</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 17:33:27
subject: <b>Dear Mr. Jeremy,</b>
body:
Mr. Columbo is not arguing that Rand and Moiraine would have failed to notice a lit lantern - he is arguing that Mat would have turned the lantern off, for fear of starting a fire in the dusty, moldy storage room while he was gone, and thus Rand and Moraine did not see the lantern because it was indeed unlit, and blended rather well into the rest of the junk that littered said storage room.<br /><br />I do not know if Mat turned the lantern off or not, and I don't feel like opening those durn books again to find out. I just wished to point out that Mr. Columbo is not arguing what you seem to think he is arguing. Good day. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Oh, and you people analyze things far too deeply. What happened to instinct?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 17:59:04
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
Following the logic put forth against this theory, it would seem because Rand and Moraine came out after Mat that they would have went in after him.<br /><br />there is no logic in this actually reme,ber mat in rhuidean he was in for 7 days also rand needed a translator so that would take longer,i beleive moirane went in first then rand and then mat,moirane would have took her time asking the questions as would rand,also he would have needed everything to be translated.Mat on the other hand blurted everything out really quicly and was chucked out quickly,rand backed himself away etc.<br /><br /><br />Just because it is the 1000th post doesn't make it correct!!<br /><br />come on the count on the bells wasn't even correct how are we meant to beleive the rest?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 19:07:46
subject: <b>Ron Jeremy...</b>
body:
you handle yourself as you should with that handle.  I haven't been on anyones case Re; english language.<br /><br />Thanks ngallagher for reinforcing my point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 20:01:16
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
It's interesting how you merely denied what I said rather than offering an alternate explanation. I suppose that you're also an English guru, just like, ironically enough, EVERYONE who writes on these posts (logic leads me to believe that most people are just lying to facilitate their own arguments).<br /><br />Not everyone always sees everything. What if the lamp was off? You know, an unlit lamp isn't that conspicuous...maybe someone left it down there awhile ago and forgot. I don't see how Rand and Moiraine must instantly notice everything. Maybe they didn't notice it on their way in.


created: 2003-07-05 21:26:09
subject: <b>Mr. Columbo</b>
body:
Yes were on another's case regarding their use of the language. Please re-read your post to Dirtytoe.<br /><br />As for my SN, how the f*ck does that affect my comments? Do I expect you to make posts like some washed up detective with a glass eye? Grow up.<br /><br />As for the lantern argument, please accept my apology if I either misinterpreted your argument, or (the more likely case) I totally got it wrong. It seems I'm in error, as was nicely pointed out by ngallagher.<br /><br />Either way, I'm glad this theory is here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hedgehog</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-05 23:34:08
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I do admit I hadn't thought about the dust, but to tell you the truth I myself would have left it lit, especially if it's the kind of lantern I believe it is -- one of those ones with the glass around most/part of them -- then the dust problem would not be too much of a danger. And, no, a sprinkler system would probably be Aes Sedai work and we know how the Tairens are about that. ^_-<br /><br />Anyhow. Oh, yes -- the strain was nil before the first bell because the first people to enter were ta'veren. (Right? Are we agreeing on that? If it was Rand or Mat in there first, then the strain would begin immediately. And even if Moiraine was in there before, it wouldn't have tolled anyway -- as far as we know she is not ta'veren.)<br /><br />I apologize for any silly mistakes, I've been gone at a horse show all day and haven't eaten a thing so I'm just a bit distracted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 00:57:17
subject: <b>DirtyToe...</b>
body:
First things first.  I don't claim to be a English guru.  Most of the time I don't make sense to myself.  I didn't ignore your post either.  I'll leave that to GG who is an english guru.<br /><br />Although again you've got me wrong.  Let me see if I got this right.  You claim Rand and Moraine just didn't notice the lantern?  GREAT!!!!  because thats what I believe also.  It seems again you've mistaken me for someone else.  RAND AND MORAINE ENTERED AFTER MAT.  It explains many things, including why Mat was in Finnland awhile before there was any strain.  <br /><br />Once GG clears things up with you, it will also be apparent that there was someone or someones before Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 01:08:09
subject: <b>Ron Jeremy</b>
body:
I thought I should respond to you separatley.  Again your comments reflect the handle you've chosen.  It also seems that after some quick investigation work, that your last post was your 6th blackboard post.  Either your a newbie getting your feet wet or you've invented another screen name.  I'll bet on NEWBIE because I haven't seen anything from you to prove otherwise.  If you want to come and flame others, thats fine.  Just expect to be ignored if you keep it up.  If on the other hand your here for the same reasons as the rest of us ( love to discuss WOT) then lets see something constructive from you.<br /><br />I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time only.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 03:29:33
subject: <b>Well well</b>
body:
Things seem to be getting nicely out of hand here. I should change my SN to Randall Flagg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, some responses:<br /><br /><b>CleanToe</b><br /><br />I just wanted to point out that I was NOT insulting Etzel, and I hope that he saw that. I did, after all, mention it twice. Anyway, I'm sorry to say that you are 100% incorrect as far as the English Language is concerned. The reasons are three:<br /><br />1) The attachment of an s at the end of a word to deotate an organization of a sort (Knights Templar, Saracens, etc.)  <b>must</b> be accompanied by a capital letter to begin the word. It is not &quot;egyptians.&quot; It is &quot;Egyptians.&quot; Without the capital, the s is excess baggage unless forming a plural. If you want proof, type &quot;saracen&quot; into a Microsoft Word document. See what happens.<br /><br />2) I was going to pull out the dictionary (Websters, of course) to give you the true meaning of attaching an s to the end of a word, but that is overkill. You have already acknowledged the plural factor, I just thought that I would point it out again as it is a main reason.<br /><br />3) My skill of the language has been called into question by you and others, but rather than get into my personal life and it's achievements (which, as I'm sure we can all agree, has no place on the BB), I will put forth the following evidence. This is an honest to goodness cut and paste from an e-mail I sent to one of my previous English Professors whom I still keep in touch with. Copy and paste:<br /><br /><i>Please read the following: <br /><br />&#8220;A long time&#8230; A long time yet the seekers come again for answers. The questioners come once more.&#8221; <br /><br />Now, the question is, how many &quot;seekers/questioners&quot; are there? </i><br /><br />The answer, cut and paste:<br /><br /><i>Well, in terms of an exact number, there is no definite answer, but if you mean more than one, then the answer is definetly 'yes'.  The plural indicates multiples.</i><br /><br />Now, if you want to argue with someone who is a professional in the field of the English language, be my guest. However, I strongly reccomend against it.<br /><br />Now, to finish your section off, I would just like to quote... you.<br /><br />&quot;You're being incredibley stubborn. You know you're denying it now just because you've convinced yourself you're right. I'd like to see your rebuttal (if you have one, it'd be wise to just agree that you erred). &quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>p hart</b><br /><br />Actually, I'm not even going to respond to you. Your own senseless posts (which I truly cannot understand) speak for themselves.<br /><br />You point the finger at me saying that I'm only 20, and how many accomplishments can I have? Well, more than a 24 year old, english speaking University student. I seem to be well ahead of you where the language is concerned despite being 4 years your junior.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>Jim</b><br /><br />Actually, believe it or not, I can count. You point out that in my theory I have 5 going in (minimum), the title is 4, and there may be 6 in total. The title was meant to rhyme. So sue me. As for the five vs. six, I was not completely sure which it was, which is why I left the topic open (as to whether or not someone entered before Mat). Now that we're discussing it, I believe there to be 6 people in there: Mat, Rand, Moiraine, Lan, one before Mat, and one after Rand (one of the misc. bells). It was the clan arguing against me that convinced me. Some people around here are like reverse barometers: whatever they say, bet the farm on the opposite. This seems to be such a situation.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>Warnings?</b><br /><br />A thought struck me earlier on today that made me chuckle and shake my head:<br /><br />We're arguing about nothing.<br /><br />Not in the general it's-only-a-book-series way (if we believed that, none of us would be here, right?), but in the context of the theory. The bells ARE warnings of a sort, are they not?<br /><br />Consider the following evidence:<br /><br />The strain does not begin until the first bell tolls.<br /><br />All agreed?<br /><br />Mat, a ta'varen, is in the Door, but there is no noticeable strain. When the bell rings, though, there is strain. Two ta'varen are too much. With each consecutive ring, the strain increases. Are we all agreed on that?<br /><br />As Moiraine says later, the strain is a result of too many ta'varen, right? Well, yes, but too many people, too. Imagine the Tower coming down when the stress level reaches 10.<br /><br />Each ta'varen equals 3, each normal person is one. Anything over five is a danger zone for strain. <br /><br />Mat goes in, no rumblings- 3<br />Another ta'varen enters, rumblings begin- 6- DANGER ZONE.<br />Bell rings again, another person coming in- 7<br />Bell rings mournfully, person leaving- 6, but still DANGER<br />Two more bells, rumblings at all time high- 8<br />Mat is thrown out- 5, medium danger with no end of the tower crisis in sight.<br /><br />So you see, the bells, signifying new people coming in, are a warning of a sort, but the warning itself is a byproduct of the bells' prime function: telling when people come in. If the walls just started rumbling, how would the finns know how many people were in there, how far beyond the danger point they were, how many to throw out, etc?<br /><br />I hope that has cleared this up to the point that we don't have to be quite so angry at each other.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>coughs in shock/amazement</b><br /><br />Nate! I think this is the first time I've seen you here! Good to have you.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>Ron Jeremy</b><br /><br />First of all, if you would be so kind as to read the posts, it was my comments that seem to have started this uproar over the use of the English language. Columbo had nothing to do with it.<br /><br />Secondly, I said that I meant no offense <b>twice</b>. Sad that I have to repost, but dems the breaks, kiddo. Now, that is not just addressed to you (despite the bold display of your name above. Hell, it's too late/early to change that: I'm beat), but to everyone who is rising to defend someone who was not insulted in the first place. Well, at least not meant to have been insulted. If Etzel was indeed offended, let me apologize here and now. However, as I know Etzel has a high comprehension (theories and the like proved it), I don't need to tell him twice. The second time was to forestall others from doing what you just did.<br /><br />Third, Canada has two official languages: English and French. Just thought you might like to know.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>CleanToe 2</b><br /><br /><i>You know, an unlit lamp isn't that conspicuous...maybe someone left it down there awhile ago and forgot. I don't see how Rand and Moiraine must instantly notice everything. Maybe they didn't notice it on their way in. </i><br /><br />Um, no, an unlit lamp in a recently rummaged room floors beneath the walls (and therefore the sunlight) of the known world's most impregnable fortress would NOT invite comment. There sure aren't any windows down there, and Nynaeve and Egwene had to see their way with something, didn't they?<br /><br />Just thought I'd point that out.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>tincanchaser</b><br /><br /><i> do admit I hadn't thought about the dust, but to tell you the truth I myself would have left it lit, especially if it's the kind of lantern I believe it is -- one of those ones with the glass around most/part of them -- then the dust problem would not be too much of a danger.</i><br /><br />Fire needs oxygen to burn, and therefore the lanterns you speak of (also how I envisioned them) are open at the top. There was a fire hazard. Besides, they only have a limited supply of oil in them; Mat did not know how long the 'quest' would take, or if there would be any oil left in the lantern when he returned, so logic states that Mat would have lturned it off.<br /><br />By the way, thank you for presenting your arguments in a civil manner. Goes a long way!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Jeez, that was a marathon! *cracks back*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 04:46:20
subject: <b>More discussion *sigh*</b>
body:
The bells are NOT people entering and leaving. The bells start when Mat asks his first question. I remind you once again what the Snakey people do when the bell tolls:<br /><br />&quot;The swayed upright, staring at one another, then at the air over Mat's head again.<br /><br />'He is another,' the woman on the left whispered.&quot;<br /><br />Mat asks his question, they look above his head, rwad his thread in the Pattern. Just after they answer bell tolls, and as we see with proceeding bells, it is the room itself which is tolling, thus a product of the strain of having multiple ta'veren.<br /><br />But the strain did not begin until they answered Mat's question. Then they look at the air above Mat's head again, reading his thread again. Then one of them declares that &quot;He is another.&quot; They are referring to Mat. Upon hearing the bell, they realize something is wrong, so they look at Mat's thread to see if he has something to do with it, which he does. After looking at his thread a second time they realize his is ta'veren.<br /><br />Look again:<br /><br />The first two bells follow the Snakey people's answers to Mat's first two questions. The third and fourth follow Mat's insistence on knowing what fate he is destined for. The fifth and sixth bells follow Mat cursing the Snakey people. I would say all these bells are responses to changes in the Pattern, specifically in Mat's life/thread.<br /><br />The first answer was he must go to Rhuidean. That changes his attitude about stuff. The second is that he must go or he will die. That is even more compelling for Mat to decide to go to Rhuidean.<br /><br />The third answer is very vague, saying he will have sidestepped the thread of fate. Thus, no bell. But the next two beels come with his insistence on knowing that fate. That certainly changes Mat. After this he is always on the lookout for the Daughter of the Nine Moons. If he had never been told about her, he would never have blurted out &quot;She is my wife! Your bloody Daughter of the Nine Moons is my wife!&quot;<br /><br />The fifth and sixth bells follow Mat's cursing the Snakes, as I said above. This leads to Mat's determination for revenge or maybe setting things right with the Snakey people, leading to him going through the other doorway in Rhuidean.<br /><br />THE BELLS ARE NOT PEOPLE ENTERING AND EXITING! FINAL!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 05:21:17
subject: <b>About the lamp and other things...</b>
body:
First, I'm not insulted by GG or Columbo. <br />I know that my English is not perfect (and that I have no clue about the Matrix..). <br /><br />Besides, it's probably impossible to really insult me in such a discussion. I give everyone who achieves it 50 points! No, wait, just a joke... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To the business,<br /><br />If you read ch.15, it's clear that Mat didn't put out the lamp, otherwise he had no light, especially when he returns from Finnland; it's dark down there. <br />He sets the lamp on a barrel near the doorway so he can study the ter'angreal. <br />Then he already goes through it, not in darkness.<br /><br />It's not mentioned that he puts out his lamp, so it's still lit. <br />Of course you can say that is not very intelligent to leave a burning lamp in such a room, but what shall we do, Mat just does it.<br /><br />Since the lamp is glass-manteled, Mat surely didn't thought that it would take much time, and as we know from the text he didn't expect someone else down there, the danger to cause a fire is very, very little.<br /><br />When Mat comes from Finnland &quot;he fell heavily onto a dusty floor in dim light and rolled up against the barrel holding his lamp in the Great Hold&quot;. <br />So the lamp was indeed lit the whole time; no one can seriously deny it.<br /><br />But what does it mean? I think not too much. <br />Even if Rand and Moiraine came after Mat and saw the lamp (what they surely did in this case) they still can wonder that <i> Mat </i> was the owner of the lamp and in Finnland, too, since a lamp doesn't tell you who left it there and why.<br /><br />Of course if Rand and Moiriane entered Finnland before Mat it would explain (also in Green Gaidin's sense) the plural of seekers etc. <br />Also the boot trace in the dust (from Rand) or Mat's thought about him whispering and being alone down there is explained then. <br />And as p hart said, Rand and Moiriane needed a translator so it's not unlikely that there trip was longer. <br />Besides, Rand and Moiraine couldn't be brought out quickly like Mat by the Finn since they had the One Power to defend themselves (Rand the fire sword). <br />All this would explain the timing.     <br /><br />It doesn't fit with the one bell/one man idea but other people and I already presented more likely purposes for the bells. <br /><br />Finally to RJ's RAFO. <br />I don't want to exclude that e.g. Slayer sneaked around in Finnland at this time if he has an easy access to Finnland. Or that someone else, at another time entered Finnland off-screen. It's possible, though I don't really believe it.<br />But other people like Lan, Rhuarc or Berelain, Perrin etc. were surely not together with Mat, Rand and Moiraine in Finnland. <br />We have no evidence for it, but some against this idea, e.g. where are their lit lamps since they can't make OP light? I doubt that anyone would go to the Great Hold in darkness.  <br />Why should they hide it? Mat doesn't really hide his trip, and Moiraine is angry, ok, but nothing else happens, it's not a crime.<br /><br />Ok, I hope it's clear that I don't agree with this theory. <br />But at least I want to give GG a bit from the book which can maybe support his theory (he needs a bit help.. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />When Mat enters and leaves Finnland alwasy a &quot;roaring filled his ears&quot;. <br />Maybe that's how the bell sounds if you are not already in Finnland but very close to hear the &quot;door-bell&quot;. <br /><br />Well, I don't really buy it, but I think GG should have said something about the problem at which time the bell tolls exactly if you go through the doorway, and why Mat didn't hear his bells. <br /><br /><br />And I have still no answer why the bell's loudness changed when more people go through it. <br />Our bell at the door tolls always in the same way, not louder sometimes.  <br /><br />Enough for now...<br /><br />


created: 2003-07-06 05:46:31
subject: <b>Why I believe Rand went in before Mat</b>
body:
[Rand] gave a start when he saw Mat. &quot;Just poking around, Mat? Or did you go through, too?&quot; p 255 pb<br /><br />I would assume Rand would not have needed to ask if Mat went through if he saw the lit lantern when he came after Mat. So I believe Rand went in before Mat.<br /><br />But what I just read is really bothering me. Rand said that the Snakey people were afraid of him from the start. Was that because Mat was already in there and they recognized the strain? I doubt it. Was it because they could recognize how strong a ta'veren he is, thus with potential for too great a strain? Or was it because they could immediately recognize him as the Dragon Reborn? Interesting...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 07:04:54
subject: <b>ok Green Gaiden</b>
body:
Well,i will try and write better,reread a few of my posts and i admit they would be hard to undertstand for anyone not scorrish to understand.I apologise for that,it's my fault!<br /><br />Ok I would still like to know these great accomplishments that you have done,completed etc etc ,or your grasp of english,granted i have none of any note a few distinctions at school an a level six year study and thats it.I have none at uni (I'm a physicist) as i rarely need the use of excellent written skills,I work more with the greek alphabet than the english one!<br /><br />although you were quite scathing with you i'm only 20 and better than thou speech,come on if writing perfectley was that important to me do you not think i would,also i'm at work most times so always in a hurry.I agree that my posts were mincey.But don't come across i'm better than you carry on i am educated in english to a fairly high level but don't feel the need to use it on a daily basis;i prefer to communicate orally.What level are you educated to GG (or do you proof read for the nobel lit commitee?)<br /><br />anyway this is no place for a slagging match its just a reply to your post on me.<br /><br />I will leave the blackboard clear for the discussion of this theory,but please tell me why you are a english guru,it can't just be cause your cousin said so.He admitted he wasn't one so how can he judge if you are?<br /><br />What level have you reached?Etc at least back your boasts up so they don't appear so wild!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 14:54:49
subject: <b>GG</b>
body:
Your professor said:<br /><br />&quot;Well, in terms of an exact number, there is no definite answer, but if you mean more than one, then the answer is definetly 'yes'. The plural indicates multiples.&quot;<br /><br />This is not in dispute. He says the &quot;plural indicates multiples,&quot; but no where in you English Professor's quote do I see any temporal qualifier. I know for a fact that there were other people in there; the last one in there was 300 years ago by the first of Mayene who gave the frame to Tear.<br /><br />Also, I was re-reading that chapter, and came across an interesting quote that proves (contrary to what I thought) that Mat entered AFTER Rand and Moiraine, which is very confusing considering the bells.<br /><br />&quot;He hurtled through--and stumbled against the crates and barrels on the other side. Without a pause, he turned and leaped at it again. With the same result. This time he caught himselfon the barrel holding his lamp, which nearly fell onto the already shattered things littering the floor under his boots. He grapped it in time, BURNING HIS HAND, and fumbled it back to a steadier perch.&quot;<br /><br />There we have it. Definitive proof that Mat left his lamp on in the storage room, and there is no mention anywhere earlier of him extinguishing it. Moiraine and Rand express surprise at seeing him, so they MUST have gone in before seeing the lit lamp.<br /><br />Why did the bells only toll when Mat started asking questions? Maybe it's the process of the Finn viewing strings from two different ta'veren at the same time that caused the bells to ring, NOT the actual strain of them both being in there at the same time. But that doesn't adequately explain why they were rushed out. Maybe they just caused too much damage already. I dunno. Just an idea.


created: 2003-07-06 15:22:59
subject: <b>Good stuff ...</b>
body:
...as a result of all the excitement.  Nothing to add at this moment but thanks for pointing out that the lamp was left on.  It seems I have to think on some of the new ideas brought forth.  <br /><br />Keep the ideas coming.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 16:28:25
subject: <b>Replies:</b>
body:
<b>Bobsledai</b><br /><br />You say that each bell is... what? A symbol of Mat's questions being answered? Sorry. Nope. Windsor destroyed that idea above. Actually, I'm not sure whether or not that is what you are saying. Truth told, I can't decipher the meaning. What exactly are the bells? <br /><br />Oh, and your eyes closed, ears covered resistance in bold print is very becoming <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>p hart</b><br /><br />I apologize for being blunt now, but my personal life, including the accomplishments, are none of your business. I believe that we can all agree that I have something of a handle on the language, and can not only make claims as to the validity of a plural statement, but back it up with proof.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>CleanToe</b><br /><br />Hmm... most interesting. The lamp was hot... Okay, this was how I saw it: Mat had no idea how long he would be in there, so he turned it to the lowest setting in order to conserve oil. Now, time seems to work differently in finnland. For example, it is my opinion that Rand HAD to have gone in after Mat, because it was not until the first bell that the rumblings started. 2 ta'varen in the door means trouble, so if Rand was already in there, why were there no rumblings? See, Rand had to go in after Mat... right around the time the first bell rang and the strain began. This means that Rand went in after Mat, waited for an interpereter, and stil came out after. Time works strangely there. When Mat came out, who is to say how long he had been in there? Perhaps the lamp WAS still hot after that period of time. Perhaps his hand landed on the metal part, which is the reason for the handles on those old lamps: it's hot. Not sure, but as you can see, the heat from the lamp is ambiguous. <br /><br />By the way, the professor is a woman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> And also, the point of organizations and the first letter capitalized still stands. Come back to me when you have something to say about that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 17:26:51
subject: <b>Why don't you give it up GG?</b>
body:
The truth is Rand and Moiraine go into the Doorway BEFORE Mat. It's that simple!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-06 19:16:50
subject: <b>so you say</b>
body:
First i would like to say that i'm from sweden so please don't  <br />complain about my english. There seem to be alot of mighty english gurus around here but you are still refusing to accept one point that even i as a swede thinks is obvious. Was some days ago i read the first 100 posts so please excuse me if i happen to offend someone because i've forgotten exactly how you wrote that message. To me it's VERY obvious that the pluralthingy you keep discussing does NOT indicate that there are multiple people in finnland at the time. Well it might indicate it but it certainly doesn't prove it. &quot;yet the seekers come again&quot; if i enter finnland as the first person in 300 years i'm still one of the seekers right? <br />Then you should be able to say that the 'seekers' come again even though it's just one person, works perfectly well in swedish. I think someone has already pointed this out earlier with an example of customers returning to a blacksmith or something but that didn't seem to get through to you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seems like GG has argued himself into a corner by replying sharply to those who don't think as he does even though he have been proved wrong (the lit lamp). GG has built up much toh, think you might just have to be gai'shain for a while.<br /><br />Probably should add that i don't mean to offend anyone i'm just amazed at how much arguing can be built around the word seekers.


created: 2003-07-06 19:27:21
subject: <b>vague question</b>
body:
&#8220;A long time&#8230; A long time yet the seekers come again for answers. The questioners come once more.&#8221;<br /><br />Now, the question is, how many &quot;seekers/questioners&quot; are there? <br /><br />The above is quoted from GGs question to the professor.<br />It really doesn't take a professor to come to the conclusion that there is more than one questioner does it? I think your average village idiot would come up with the same answer. Everyone knows that there are more than one seeker who has BEEN there, they don't necessarily have to BE there right then do they? You should instead have asked your professor if that sentence proves that there are more then one person in there at that EXACT time or if it is possible that they included the seekers who left finnland 300 years ago in those words. Feel free to correct my english as it's not top class and i'm more then willing to learn new things about the wonderful english language.<br /><br />And Please if you don't understand what i'm trying to say with these posts just ask me and i'll try to clarify.<br />Oh one last thing, spare me the snide comments just because this is like my 3rd post on the board, i've been visiting this site for 2 years but haven't felt the urge to post something before.


created: 2003-07-06 20:01:43
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
I took seekers/questioners to be the Finn anomaly for humans/people. You know... like how some people (notably those of Shienar) call the Ogier 'builders'. A bad example, I admit, but I can't think of one to best it right now. I suppose 'ta'veren' could be substituted for humans/people, but others besides ta'veren have gone through the doorways, so I'm going for a general approach for the time.<br /><br />Looking at my book again... the guide says the bit about the seekers/questioners -- so obviously it can't be the same guide that took Rand and Moiraine to the other Finn, if Rand/Moiraine entered first. Just a small point.<br /><br />Aah. So the lamp was lit. I thought it was, it would be like Mat to leave it lit, even if he has read that time may flow differently. ('I do read sometimes!') Even if he had turned it down, someone would have noticed, right, if they went after him? I imagine so.<br /><br />The fact that Mat was in for the least time of all three (or four, if that is still being disputed) fits in. Rand and Moiraine, going in first, should have been the first ones out, except they needed translators and Mat was rushed out rather rudely.<br /><br />Once before, I thought that maybe the bells were questions being answered. There are too many, though, unless I'm mistaken. Just thought I'd mention it, though since it's been personally disproven it's slightly irrelevant.<br /><br />Aah. Thank you, GG, for the comment. I'll take it as a compliment, though I don't really see anyone being uncivilized. A bit flustered, maybe. Guessing that everyone here is nearly twice as old as I am, the fact that you all have more responsiblity than a fourteen-year-old explains that. *grin*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 00:21:41
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I think you (the theory poster) read too deeply into what Jordan writes. And for the record, Taimandred does not exist, Jordan has actually told us this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Zerinia Faershiam<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />129 w 87 tree<br />Murrinell Wood, WE, 98833<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 02:11:51
subject: <b>GG, ???</b>
body:
<b>You say that each bell is... what? A symbol of Mat's questions being answered? Sorry. Nope. Windsor destroyed that idea above. Actually, I'm not sure whether or not that is what you are saying. Truth told, I can't decipher the meaning. What exactly are the bells? </b><br /><br />No, I'm not saying that the bells are symbols of Mat's questions being answered, though I do believe they are a result of the effects of the answers. Think about what effects the first two answers had on Mat's thread in the Pattern. The third answer was too vague to change anything, thus no bell after the third answer. Two more bells with Mat's insistence on knowing what his fate is. Two more bells for Mat hardening his heart against the Finns, thus setting him on the path to decide to enter the doorway in Rhuidean.<br /><br /><b>Oh, and your eyes closed, ears covered resistance in bold print is very becoming </b><br /><br />Huh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 03:57:15
subject: <b>Set Down the Book</b>
body:
well i thought i was all whitty and smart about 1/8 down the post but then stuff got mentioned and about 1/2 way through i realized u guys have too much friggin time on your hands<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I mean come on how does the fact that he said Questioner or ers make a difference? oh yeah i stopped 3/4 the way down. hehe im lazy. but back to the point. You guys got pretty wierd after awhile i think you guys need to get some fresh air or something. How long has this theory been up? a week? 2? its got like a zillion comments. You guys need to set down the books and take a breath. breathe with me. in 2 3 out 2 3. good. now i dont really think there is very much evidence except for jordans reply to your question supporting more people. boot tracks? moved dust? u guys look to hard. neways im just here to bring down the fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and remember BREATHE inhale 2 3 exhale.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 04:11:32
subject: <b>Interesting idea, bobsledai...</b>
body:
if I understand it correctly.<br /><br />You say that because of every answer consequently the pattern is changed since Mat will now, with this knowledge behave in another way as he had before, if he wants it or not. <br />As a ta'veren Mat is one of the most important threads and so several other threads around him will change as well. <br /><br />Probably the whole pattern changes if you tell a strong ta'veren about the future.<br /><br />In this passage we had two ta'veren who got answers, with Rand even the most powerful. <br />So the future/the whole pattern was fundamentally and very quickly changed through the short trip of the ta'veren to the Finn. <br />Maybe this caused somehow the eathquakes. Perhaps the Finn live directly at the pattern and that's the reason how they are able to knew the future but they are also affected by big changes in the pattern.  <br /><br />But I can't agree with the bit about the bells because we don't hear the bells which would be an effect to Rand's answers.


created: 2003-07-07 04:58:17
subject: <b>To Etzel about the bells</b>
body:
I agree that one possible working of Finnland may be that anyone in the doorway would hear the same bells. but I'm going to go with the belief that people would hear bells according to their own thread in the Pattern. We know so little of Finnland to say for sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 07:18:02
subject: <b>you replt to cleantoe GG</b>
body:
the lamp was hot this is how you saw it!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Youve spent 3 days trying to tell us how you thought it was turned off.<br /><br />Your wrong about this theory!Mat was last in!Grow up,you can define plurals and then your PROFFESOR backs them up,so what.Do you want a chocolate medal or a life,your big head is so stupid your certainly not acting 20,or at least like the canadians i have met,i'm assuming your doing an english degree?<br /><br />Stop being so big headed about this,and refusing to belief that you might be wrong .<br /><br />Have any of your other theories been correct yet?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 08:53:33
subject: <b>Plural of questioners and internal consistency</b>
body:
Since everyone is having such a great time bickering about it I'm going to do so as well. First I want to say I really like the originality of your theory, although I disagree on most parts. I am still firmly convinced the bells are a warning, not some kind of doorbell. Second, I think Mat was the last to go in (I'm not going to expound on this one, others have done so sufficiently). Third, I'm not sure if anyone else was in at that time, although some people have made a convincing argument about Berelain having entered at some point of time. Now, I'm going back to the argument about seekers/questioners and play devil's advocate. Whether or not there were some people inside the doorway when Mat entered, as soon as the finn saw Mat they would have known there would be more people coming in. After all, they can read/see the future and the first thing that happens to Mat after he's thrown out is his conversation with two other visitors, in fact Mat sees them coming out. It would be very unlikely for the finn to miss something like that. <br /><br />Other than that, I would like to offer some advice to Green Gaidin on communication: if you want to make it understood you didn't mean to insult someone, don't repeat it several times. It sounds demeaning and people will believe you actually meant the reverse. Secondly, I really don't think you should make comments on other people's English, unless it is so bad it is unintelligeble. I am sure you are fluent, but it is still not a nice thing to do and leaves you open to attack whenever you make a mistake, no matter how small.


created: 2003-07-07 10:09:29
subject: <b>Whoa...</b>
body:
Okay... I think everyone has sufficiently calmed down except for maybe p hart... Can we drop the personal discussion and the accusations and please continue our posting in peace? That would be lovely, it's far too early in the morning for me to be crawling through angry posts.<br /><br />bobsledai... I like that idea. And Mat would probably only hear his own thread changing things -- otherwise he'd be deaf by now, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />. I'm not saying this is a better idea than the doorbell/warning/strain ideas, but right now it makes infinitely more sense to me. <br /><br />I am no longer remotely convinced that there was someone else inside during this chapter. Maybe Berelain went in, but it's not really importaint -- it only explains why she keeps following Perrin around (which could also be under direction of her advisor Annoura, who I am convinced is Black Ajah).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 11:26:16
subject: <b>hahahahahahaha</b>
body:
hahhahhahaha.   Its nice to see that this theory has brought out some new posters ( newbies).  Its great to get everyone involved, isn't it.<br /><br />The fact that there was nil strain on Finnland while Mat made his journey through the halls, is enough for me to believe that Mat entered before Rand and Moraine.  And the lamp doesn't change that.  Sorry.  Moraine asked if Perrin was in finnland as well, but he wasn't.  Lamp doesn't change the order of entry. <br /><br />P.S.  P hart, do yourself a favor and take a deep breath.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 14:07:48
subject: <b>Bite my penis</b>
body:
4 in the backdoor--<br /><br />really stretches one's anus.<br /><br />This conversation is over.<br /><br />Lick me.


created: 2003-07-07 14:14:22
subject: <b>*takes deep breath*</b>
body:
to be honest i wish i could talk over this,as i seem to be coming across all angry.I'm not feeling angry and annoyed at all just a little perturbed over some accusations.<br /><br />Personally i think the bells are warnings due to reasons posted above mainly by jim and etzel i see no reason to reitterate them here.<br /><br />its certainly made good discussion which im very gratefull to GG for providing,but as was told to him by RJ i guess we will have to RAFO.<br /><br />To be honest i think most main points aren't made by any real newbies i think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 14:23:50
subject: <b>A couple of replies</b>
body:
Columbo:<br /><br />The reason there was nil strain when Mat first entered the dorrway was because there was no great changes in the Pattern or his own thread. That's why the bells started with the answers.<br /><br />p hart:<br /><br />Cool that you don't think any of the posts are by newbies. I'm never sure exactly when someone is no longer considered a newbie. When they post often enough? When they write a really good theory? When people start treating them like an elder?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 14:37:49
subject: <b>The simplest explanation</b>
body:
*Sigh*  There is already too much stuff to read, so maybe I shouldn't clutter up the board more with my opinion.<br /><br />The simplest solution is the most likely to be correct.  The first three bells rang just after Mat got a formal answer.  (The stuff about the DotNM and sacrificing half the light of the world aren't official answers.)  The last three bells likely occur when Moiraine and Rand are getting their questions answered.  There are nine questions with three people in 'finnland'.  Mat heard 6 bells.  The other 3 either happened before or after Mat entered.<br /><br />Now it could be just chance that the first three bells rang just after Mat asks the questions but it is simpler to assume that the two events are related.<br /><br />I like the idea, proposed by Jim that the bells are warning bells.  On the other hand it doesn't explain the timing of the bells with Mat's answers.  Second it isn't necessary to explain why the Finns are getting more and more nervous.  It is likely that they can sense the trouble that is happening without need of a warning system.  It is only natural that the Finns would get more and more nervous with time even without the bells.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 14:48:34
subject: <b>To RabitWombat</b>
body:
Ah, but notice that the first three bells <i>almost</i> correspond to Mat's three answers. There's a bell following the first two answers, but not the third answer. The third bell follows Mat's insistence on knowing what his fate is. Read some of my about posts for further understanding.<br /><br />What exactly is a wombat, anyways?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 15:40:08
subject: <b>My take so far.</b>
body:
First off regarding the bells.  So far what has made the most sense to me was whoever mentioned that it wasn't bells, but a side effect of the earthquakes.  There was no strain before Mat asked his first question because they were not trying to read the threads of 2 strong ta'veren concurrently.  I've seen more effective evidence for showing that Rand and Moiraine went in first.<br /><br />Of course the major hole in that idea is that they could have just refused to read the one ta'veren until the other left as soon as they found out.<br /><br />The bells being doorbells brings out too much confusion and allows for too many people to have access to that supposedly secret doorway.<br /><br />Bells as a warning seems too redundant since they can obviously feel the strain even without the earthquakes.<br /><br />It could be answers to questions or changing of the pattern, but why the different sounds of the bells?  And why do MOST (not all by any stretch) of the bells match the intensity of the strain?<br /><br />As for the english debate.  GG has provided ample evidence that the plurals implies multiples, not a group name.  It has also been pointed out that the plurals does not provide a time frame.  There's a simpler explanation folks.  Ever heard of Poetic License.  RJ was probably trying to get the point across that these people think/act/speak differently than humans, so he fudged the grammar a bit to make the point without losing the meaning.<br /><br />As for who else went through, the possibilities are Berelain, Lan, and Slayer really (no one else except the girls, and we can be pretty sure they didn't after their conversation with Moiraine).  Slayer would have no reason to.  I see no reason to think he has ever had contact with the Finns (someone is going to bring up the Tower of Ghenji, don't there's no evidence he went in, only that he apporached and disappeared).  Lan might have gone through, but he would have done so close to Moiraine and would have come out at the same time.  Berelain is the strongest possibility, but I really don't think that is why she's after Perrin.  Perrin's a darkhorse candidate (pretty much eliminated because we've had too many PoV's without mention and no proof he knew about it).<br /><br />As for the insults/accussations/etc...  Very immature.  You should assume everyone is equally qualified when you know next to nothing about them.  Don't trash them because of their opinions, argue their opinions.  Can we please get this back to a discussion instead of a flame war (this seems to be the consensus now).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 17:11:19
subject: <b>conclusion</b>
body:
Rand and Moiraine go before Mat into the Doorway. If there is someone else going into the Doorway that same night it is most likely Berelain. Because she knows about it and had reasons to go in. So END DISCUSSION!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 17:12:06
subject: <b>I am going to be heretical.....</b>
body:
But, couldn't RJ have made a mistake/oversight about the lamp?  I know it is unlikely that he would forget about it since he did mention it again after Mat came out.  But my first impression was that RJ could just have overlooked the fact that Moiraine and Rand would notice the lamp sitting there (without having the book in front of me and only going by what others have written).  But, I will be the first to admit it's a far-fetched idea as RJ seems terribly good at kepping small, inconsequential-seeming things straight and making them clear later on.<br /><br />Now, on to some of the points other people made:<br /><br /><b>Slayer:</b><br />If Slayer can come and go as he pleases it shouldn't matter if he'd been gone from the stone for 4 days; he could still have entered after Mat.  Of course there isn't much sense in that as far as story-telling goes...doesn't really seem to add much to the overall plot so I'd guess that's a no-go.<br /><br /><b>Berelain:</b><br />Ok, I haven't read this particular book in like 4 or 5 years, but I do remember I had a feeling about Berelain and the Door.  This is mostly because she knew about it and I couldn't imagine her not at least TRYING to use it.  She does appear to be a competent ruler (though how she's supposed to be ruling when she's off traipsing around with Perrin and Co. I can't fathom), and if she is willing to be the first to swear allegiance to the DR then I think she has enough moxy to step through the doorframe in search of answers (ie, Am I doing the right thing? What do I need to do to protect Mayene? etc.)  I also thought the way she pounced on Perrin somewhat strange.<br /><br />But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it happened at the same time or even in the same night.<br /><br />As far as the &quot;confused look&quot; and the RAFO, well I am sure the confused look was him trying to place exactly what you were asking since your question was a bit vague considering that there are now 10 books that he has to sort through to come up with exactly what you meant.  The surprised look could be because no one has ever asked him that (which could of course go either way; there could be a very good reason no one did!).  The RAFO, as many others have pointed out, could mean anything.<br /><br />But, in the end, I think the way in which RJ handled that particular experience leads to some questioning of what was really going on.  We have yet to find out what Rand and Moiraine's questions and answers were.  The fact that he pointed out the dustless corridor, boot prints, Mat feeling the need to whisper etc. all sound like classic RJ setting us up for something.<br /><br />That leads to the criticism that it is now up to book 10 and no answers yet. Well, I feel there are many, many &quot;loose strings&quot; so to speak, that RJ had at least planned on tying up a bit before the end.  I think some of these he has lost sight of (please, no Q about what exactly...I would have to go back and reread everything again, which I don't plan on doing until after the FINAL book comes out).  Though I love the series dearly, I believe RJ has  allowed it to become a bit monstrous and bulbous and there are likely to be many unexplained things at the end of the series.   <br /><br />So, my end 2 cents is thus: I really like your theory.  I thought your arguments sounded good.  I also have to agree with some of the points others made such as; the light being noticed, too many bell tolls etc.  I have rebuttal's for some of the criticism, most of which has already been mentioned.<br /><br /><b>No one following the threesome out</b>: could still be in talking; could have used another entrance/exit; &quot;time flowing differently&quot; might have had a hand. <br /><br /><b>Light not noticed by Rand or Mor</b>: They could have been preoccupied (not likely), RJ made a mistake (more likely but still not a great explanation).<br /><br /><b>Bell tolls in time with reverberations</b>: I like the last thing you wrote about this, ie how each person puts a certain amount of strain on the system, with normal people being less than ta'veren.  But, without having the book in front of me so I can read the entire passage in its entirety without anyone else's helpful quotes etc., I can't really make up my own mind.<br /><br /><b>About the general negativity from various posters</b>: It's not very nice or constructive and really doesn't give off the right ambiance for the TP.  Call me old-fashioned but I prefer a veneer of civility on all faceless exchanges such as this.<br /><br />Thus, my final thought is :<b>&quot;For whom DOES the bell toll?&quot;</b> LOL, ok, I am a big William Faulkner fan and couldn't resist throwing it out there.<br /><br />Sorry about the general randomness/tangential quality of this post.  If I had more time I'd try to pretty it up a bit, but I think I get my general sentiments out there.  I like the theory and think it has merits.  I hope RJ does actually (one way or another) cover what happened that day and what questions were asked and answers given. I am not willing to say that you are completely correct.  But, you have livened up my day a bit and there is much to be said for that!<br /><br />Here's to many more great, thought-provoking posts on the board!


created: 2003-07-07 21:23:02
subject: <b>Using the power</b>
body:
&quot;Nynaeve and Egwene would need men to shift around in a room full of priceless artefacts? Items that are insanely valuable for Aes Sedai and the White Tower? Especially when they could just move anything they want to with the Power. It doesn't make sense...&quot;    (exerpt from your essay)<br /><br />I have thought much the same about this particular instance, and find only one flaw (if it can be called so) in your analysis.... Egwene,Elayne, and Nynaeve were afraid to channel in these rooms. <br />&quot;...&quot;I saw that doorway,&quot;  Elayne said.  &quot;In the last room at the end of the hall.  My lamp went out, and I fell three times before I made it to the door.&quot;  ....&quot;I was afraid to channel in there, even to relight the lamp.&quot;.....&quot;(page 95)<br /><br />My point is, it does not mention them having anyone else in these rooms with them, and I doubt they would have.  However, channeling in the rooms was out of the question-at least to Elayne and we can assume for the others as well.<br /><br />I like the idea of the mystery man being Rhuarc immensely!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lainey Sedai  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 22:38:56
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
sorry- I should've read the rest of the blackboard before posting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lainey Sedai  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 23:46:53
subject: <b>On Reading it myself...</b>
body:
I now feel as if Rand and Moiraine arrived first.  This is due to Rand's comments to Mat after coming out of the doorway:<br /><br />HB p.178, &quot;Not liars I think.&quot; Rand sounded as if he wished they were.  &quot;No not that. They were afraid of me, right from the first.  And when that tolling started....The sword kept them back; they wouldn't even look at it.  Shied away.  Hid their eyes.&quot;<br /><br />It's obvious he was there for some time before the bells toll for the first time.  Mat only really got through one question before the bell tolled.  If Rand had only just stepped through the doorframe it is unlikely he would have had all his answers (which is made clear through him not denying he did when asked, and his inneundo that he felt what they said could be true in the above statement).<br /><br />This seems to discredit the bells tolling on the entrance of people I think.  Otherwise it would have tolled when Mat entered. (perhaps it did, but is certainly not shown by any of the surrounding text which means it does not exist for us, the readers.) <br /><br />Since Rand had enough time to a.) get a translator b.) get enough emotion from the snakey-people to realize they were afraid of him and c.) get his questions asked and answered to such an extent as he believes they are telling the truth then he must have had a bit of time with them before the walls started quivering.<br /><br />I do agree with another poster who made some comments about the &quot;Tolling&quot; being a signal/warning about something that touches upon the Pattern (can't remember exactly right now and am too tired to look back and see who it was or what it was exactly)<br /><br />Also, right before the bell tolls the first time is when Mat gets his question answered...the first chance they get to find out that he is Taveren.  Mat is the one they are referring to when they say &quot;He is another.&quot; on p.176  Rand was the first, Mat the follower, hence he is the &quot;other&quot;.  It is the most logical conclusion and therefore the most probable.  Of course RJ is the author and he is allowed to do whatever he wants in his world, including being illogical.  But so far he has shown himself otherwise.<br /><br />But, I do really want to commend you on writing a great post that actually made me sign on to Wotmania at night.  I normally only do the internet thing while I'm working.  This may be the first time in 2 years I was on at night (I am an old fogey at 29 LOL) So, great work.


created: 2003-07-08 04:44:51
subject: <b>bobsledia(SP?)</b>
body:
Don't worry about newbie midbie elder tags,too many people are too preoccupied about this,especially on the commMB<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />When discussing the books length of time here should have no bearing on your argument.Though it will almost certainly do.It's almost like aes sedia and their strength in the power thing.<br /><br />In short do you really care about some sort of &quot;site status&quot; achieved by length of time here and acceptance by your peers?<br /><br />I have been coming here for years,every day during term time but i don't think of myself as nebie midbie or god forbid elder.<br /><br />so i don't view others that way too mucj<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 08:51:42
subject: <b>Recent post struck me *light bulb*</b>
body:
At the time the doorway occurred, the girls were mostly doing an inventory.  As was shown above they went down quite frequently by themselves.  The didn't necessarily (and probably wouldn't) have workmen down there unless they were actually needed to move something heavy.<br /><br />We now Rand went digging down there because he ended up with the angreal.  I think the chances are good that the bootprints Mat saw criscrossing the floor are quite a bit Rand's.  He came down to go through the ter'angreal, felt something and got distracted and went looking for what caused it, found the little bhudda and pocketed it, then went through the door.<br /><br />That would imply he definitely went in before Mat, and as GG himself said somewhere Rand and Moiraine would take longer than Mat.  Since they came out shortly after Mat, they either didn't get to finish their questions (neither of them seem upset about that, so they did) or time flows faster on the other side of the looking glass (so to speak).<br /><br />It's circumstantial I know, but it does provide evidence that Rand at least went in before Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 09:37:11
subject: <b>Fyatuk</b>
body:
Actually, Rand said he read about the doorway in a book. He even named books that would most likely have info about the doorway, so I don't think he was lying.<br /><br />But interesting point about the foot prints. Maybe it was the other way round. Maybe Rand was looking for the doorway and stumbled upon the angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 09:49:09
subject: <b>That's what I meant..</b>
body:
Sorry if that wasn't clear.<br /><br />I meant to say that he went down to go through the doorway, but when he got there he felt the angreal and went searching for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 10:39:21
subject: <b>My fault</b>
body:
I misread what you wrote. I got things switched around as I read. Not your fault.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 11:20:57
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
&quot;Sorry, my fault..&quot;, &quot;No, it was MY fault!&quot;; <br /><br />it's such a nice harmony here again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />BTW, I wonder if Green Gaidin will reply over again to the comments. <br />That would be interesting. <br /><br />


created: 2003-07-08 14:48:57
subject: <b>Good work - a small correction though.</b>
body:
Awesome post, I like it!<br /><br />I just wanted to add something, with the number of visitors that night. I only count 4 not five.<br /><br />*enter unknown* - your evidence supports someone was there before Mat.<br /><br />*enter Mat*<br /><br />*enter Rand* - Page 176: As soon as she spoke their eyes all dropped to him again, and they leaned forward, breathing deeply again, but at that moment a bell tolled, a sonorous brazen sound that rolled through the room. They swayed upright, staring at one another, then at the air over Mat&#8217;s head again.<br /><br />*enter moiraine* - Page 177: The bell tolled again, louder this time.<br /><br />Now there is only three bells remaining...<br />-Page 177: A third time the bell sounded mournfully and the whole room trembled.<br />-Page 177: Twice more the bell tolled<br /><br />This means that Rand(mournfull bell?) and two other(moiranie+unknown) left.<br /><br />Therefore only one unknown person entered that night. And from your other evidence it's prolly Lan.


created: 2003-07-08 14:55:05
subject: <b>Yes Yes First post</b>
body:
first time i had first post here loving it,I would like to thank my mum my dad my dog my friends producer teachers orthodontist doctor driving instructor first love wife girlfriendd mistress toy boy and last bu not least myself!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 15:45:44
subject: <b>elanmorin...</b>
body:
Elanmorin, you should probably have read the rest of the posts before posting yourself... we've established that Rand and Moiraine went in (not sure which one of them was first), then Mat, then Mat came out, then Rand, then Moiraine. And that if there was another person, it was probably Berelain.<br /><br />And that the bells are not entrances or exits.<br /><br />^_^<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 16:12:40
subject: <b>you forgot that...</b>
body:
we are anxiously awaiting GG's latest comments to see what arises.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 01:35:52
subject:
<b>Nah, too much stress y'all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
To tell all of you esteemed theory posters the truth, I've hit E on this one. I have to say that it has been very stressful, arguing against two handfuls of people, all arguing different things, all wanting a piece of the pie. I did it for 160 odd coments, I think that's enough.<br /><br />I took you on, many would say I won, many would say I lost, but I personall y say that I never shied away from any comments or suggestions dealing with this theory. I backed everything up with WoT (and even some English <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) knowhow, but now it's time to bow out, waiting for the next theory.<br /><br />Good discussion, all, seriously, but now I would like to say something to everyone here in the form of a quote that has become my favorite sig ever: <br /><br /><b>Arguing on the internet is like winning the gold medal at the Special Olympics: you may win the argument, and you may win the gold, but you're still retarded.</b><br /><br />That isn't meant to insult anyone (note to whomever called me on two disclaimers: only one this time! Hope it didn't offend!), as I, too, was getting pretty heated. I just wanted to point out that a lot of people took this to heart, and that's no fun for anyone. Hopefully all of us (me included) can calm'er right down on the next one. <br /><br />Anyway, only time will tell if I'm right. See you all at the next blackboard!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 13:56:00
subject: <b>Yay!</b>
body:
I've been wondering about the bells for a while.  Hehe, it all becomes clear now.  <br /><br />With each kill I grow wiser and with added wisdom I grow stronger.


created: 2003-07-11 05:24:05
subject: <b>Wow!</b>
body:
I've never really thought about this, but this makes sense to me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 11:45:14
subject: <b>Good but Wait...</b>
body:
You've made some good points but i noticed some things you've over looked.  First of all, Nynaeve and Egwene WOULD need workmen to move the ter'angreal because they could very easily be stilled or killed blindly touching unknown ter'angreal with the Power.  Second, how could Lan be Moirain's stalker, and why?  She would sense the bond and notice he was following her, therefore making it impossible for him to follow her unoticed, no matter how skilled a Warder he is.  I would also bet against it being Rhuarc since we haven't heard more  than a couple lines from him in the last couple of books, unless the Aiel were doubting Rand and Rhuarc entered the doorway to find reassurance for his people.


created: 2003-07-11 21:20:36
subject: <b>Sorry if I'm being rude</b>
body:
But please, if you want to say something, read through everyone else before you say it to make sure there is no repitition.


created: 2003-07-20 17:45:01
subject: <b>New points</b>
body:
I have to go back and note what's been said so I don't repeat anything, so I will reserve nitpicking through the Blackboard until later and just say new stuff.<br /><br />The swept corridor Mat notices when heading to the storeroom is swept right up to the door and no further by Tairen servants, who either by their own superstition or that of their masters, don't go in there, as it's Aes Sedai work (maybe even Aes Sedai &quot;soil&quot;?). However, the door leading up to the storeroom is still part of the palace, to be immaculately maintained. I mean, all the pages spent on Reene Harfor and palace workings and decorum should make that obvious. The servants would clean everything they were ordered not to, so that they avoid punishment for overlooking something, right?<br /><br />Elayne and Nynaeve obviously had workmen, since they would have Moiraine's caution, and she did the same thing in Book 5 when loading the wagons.<br /><br />&quot;The seekers come again&quot;...would one Seanchan mean the <i>Corenne</i> was starting? I'm paraphrasing, but there is a saying that one is a aberration, two is a coincidence, but three is a trend.<br /><br />Moiraine and Rand entered before Mat. Thus Rand found the angreal before Mat came down there. He didn't do it afterwards. He might have done it during Mat's visit, but then Rand wouldn't have asked if Mat had gone in yet, since he would have seen Mat's lantern or footprints, and has a assumption which keeps him from considering it. It's not until Rand sees Moiraine that he realizes that more than one person could be in there at the same time (since he never saw the others, but must have asked questions at nearly the same time as Moiraine at least). He assumed that only one person was allowed in at a time (since that's the only number that entered in his book), and that Mat was waiting his turn. Thus his earlier question reveals this ignorance, which reveals the order.


created: 2003-07-21 08:17:07
subject: <b>To Elder Haman</b>
body:
<b> &quot;The seekers come again&quot;...would one Seanchan mean the Corenne was starting? I'm paraphrasing, but there is a saying that one is a aberration, two is a coincidence, but three is a trend. </b><br /><br />I don't see your connection to the Seanchan here. <br />Only because they have the Seekers for Truth as a secret police?<br />Besides, the Seanchan arrived already in TGH. Only the Hailene, but with them were surely Seekers. <br />Finally, I don't see why the Finn would tell Mat about the Seanchan/Corenne without being asked about it.


