# w_comment

created: 2002-06-04 18:57:25
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
It could be him. I really haven't heard anything that definitely proves it isn't, such as some other explanation of where he is. I agree that the crying thing seems unlike him, but Rand who is infinitely stronger or harder however you want to say it, seemed to be crying/laughing in the box and he definitely wasn't broken. I give you a lot of credit for coming up with an original theory and I like the way that you have thought out the possible connections. I am not entirely convinced that it will be him- it just seems like his meeting with his mother would have already happened at this point- but maybe not the Shaido camp does seem to be very large. Still you may very well turn out to be right. Good job.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I would rather be feared then loved.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-04 20:49:21
subject: <b>In my opinion this isn't a theory</b>
body:
This is just a guess.  There really is only 1 point to support your theory (a whitecloak being captured by the Aiel).  All the rest is just guesses to support your original guess.  This is why no one can make anything out of this theory.  Frankly, there isn't anything to make out of this theory, because it isn't even a theory.<br /><br />A theory or an argument needs at least two pieces of information to back it up.  All theories involve some speculation, otherwise they would be a fact not a theory.  But usually, theories also have some facts in which to expand on.  This theory has only one guess to expand on, and that is why nobody can make anything out of it.<br /><br />In a way, this kind of reminds me like that last theory I saw about Vandene being Mesaana.  They said this because both of this characters were seen to lip-tap.  But one piece of information cannot prove a theory (especially when the one piece of information turns out to be wrong).<br /><br />I like the idea of Galad being with the whitecloaks, but as someone above mentioned, it is only mind-candy, with nothing to support it.  But, what else is left?  I totally understand the lack of material to work with.  That is why only 3 theories have been posted in the last week.  That is why I am going to wait till Nov.  until making new theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 00:20:54
subject:
<b>A modest rebuttal to Matrimony Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
(edited from Miriam Webster's online dictionary)<br />the&#183;o&#183;ry: <br />1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another<br />2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I can actually substantiate this as a working theory (based on two or more facts) as well as speculation.<br /><br />Fact #1: RJ is famous for sliding in something important as a trivial reference.  <br />Fact #2: A trivial reference was made to a Whitecloak in the Shaido camp.<br />Fact #3: No mention has been made of Galad in a while, and I figure he's due to turn up again (glances at my watch) pretty soon.<br /><br />I know that &quot;If A, then B&quot; isn't always the case.  Which is why it's speculative theory.  Which is a fancy way of saying, &quot;I have a hunch&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Of course all of this is mind candy.  I love mind candy, it's a favorite snack.  Hence my 'name' here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 00:46:59
subject: <b>A even more modest rebutal of a modest rebutal</b>
body:
&quot;edited from Miriam Webster's online dictionary)<br />the&#183;o&#183;ry:<br />1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another<br />2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION&quot;<br /><br /><br />Well, I am glad you brought this up.  This is a good discussion and an important one.  Hopefully, it is one that other people will contribute to.  As I mentioned in my above post, all theories must contain speculation, otherwise they would be facts.    <br /><br />However, a theory must have a support of facts on which to support its speculation.  <br /><br />&quot;I can actually substantiate this as a working theory (based on two or more facts) as well as speculation.<br /><br />Fact #1: RJ is famous for sliding in something important as a trivial reference.&quot;<br /><br />This isn't a fact, this is your interpretation of a probability.  RJ is also famous for misleading people.  But he does not 100% develop trivial references or 100% mislead people.  The truth lies somewhere between. <br /><br />Plus, you cannot automatically assume that the developing of the trivial reference in this case would be the development would be the development of Galad.  This is a leap of logic.  It could be about Child Byar, or about Dain's son (can't remember his name).<br /><br />&quot;Fact #2: A trivial reference was made to a Whitecloak in the Shaido camp.&quot;<br /><br />Here is the bread and butter of your theory.  No comments here.<br /><br />&quot;Fact #3: No mention has been made of Galad in a while, and I figure he's due to turn up again (glances at my watch) pretty soon.&quot;<br /><br />You started out with a fact- Galad hasn't been mentioned in awhile.  But then you imposed your opinion on that fact- &quot;I figure he's due to turn up again (glances at my watch) pretty soon.&quot;<br /><br />You may be right that he is bound to turn up again, but that isn't a fact.  Galad could very well turn up soon, but he could turn up in any number of ways, with the whitecloak prisoner being just one of the many ways. <br /><br />However, Galad might NOT turn up soon also.  I don't think any of us believe that, but there have been times when we thought someone would turn up soon (such as Mat in PoD) and then they didn't. <br /><br />Therefore, what I am saying is that just because someone hasn't been mentioned in awhile does not automatically lead to someone reappearing in the next book.  This is another leap of logic from your original statement that &quot;Galad hasn't appeared in awhile.&quot;     <br /><br />&quot;I know that &quot;If A, then B&quot; isn't always the case. Which is why it's speculative theory. Which is a fancy way of saying, &quot;I have a hunch&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Hunch is a good word.  It is a good hunch, and something to be aware of.  But a lawyer can't base his case off a single hunch, he would be ridiculed by the judge.  There has to be series of facts to support the hunch, and this is where I differ with you about whether this is a theory or not.  <br /><br />You have a hypothesis, but in science a hypothesis is always followed by 2 or more facts.  As I demonstrated, 2 of the facts that you stated to me, actually have leaps of logic in them.  These leaps, in fact, make them speculative and not fact.  <br /><br />I don't mean to to be harsh, I was just bringing up a few valid points and constructive criticism.  <br /><br />I once had a theory (or so I thought) that said that Elder Haman will be the one to tell Tam and the 2 rivers that Rand was the Dragon.  It made sense, but it had only one fact on which to base itself (that Rand had sent Elder Haman to the 2 Rivers).  Thus, I would call it a statement and not a theory.  <br /><br />Cheers<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />Of course all of this is mind candy. I love mind candy, it's a favorite snack. Hence my 'name' here &lt;<br /><br />Bla<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 09:42:27
subject: <b>Back to a guess</b>
body:
I gotta agree with those who say tihs is nothing more than a guess.  It's based on pretty much two elements: that the White Cloak is brave and Galad is brave (not an uncommon trait -- esp. among warriors!), so it has a good chance of being Galad; and that we haven't seen Galad in awhile. <br /><br />We could also call the White Cloak 'shockingly stupid' -- it's just a different way of looking at it.<br /><br />Let me put up something else.  My rants about annointing Galad 'the best at' anything aside, he IS a terrific warrior.  The very strong implications were that the White Cloak was 'brought back' the 9th time.  That means he got somewhere.<br /><br />I submit that if Galad 'got' somewhere -- 9 times! -- that he would cause such significant damage so that it would be an issue, i.e., killing a dozen Aiel or so.  100 dead Shaido later...do think they'd just bring him back?  That there wouldn't be quite a fuss? That, after Escape Attempt No. 5 or so, (and 50-ish dead Aiel), the Shaido wouldn't s<br /><br />That even Galina wouldn't find something of it noteworthy?  Remember -- she DOES know Gawyn (in fact, worked with him).  She's not a fool; she's certainly capable of making connections.<br /><br />So, sure, I agree that it could be Galad. But it could also be pretty much any living White Cloak, and quite frankly, there's NO significant reason to think it's Galad.  We haven't seen Byar lately and we know he's no coward, either.  <br /><br />Jordan is building an image of Galad. Blubbering and sobbing is not part of that image.  You need far more to go on that what has been presented.


created: 2002-06-05 10:22:54
subject: <b>Galad only dangerous to Aiel if he has a sword.....</b>
body:
&quot;I submit that if Galad 'got' somewhere -- 9 times! -- that he would cause such significant damage so that it would be an issue, i.e., killing a dozen Aiel or so. 100 dead Shaido later...do think they'd just bring him back?&quot; <br /><br />All this assumes he escapes and has a sword.......not an easy thing to find in an Aiel encampment. Without he still might be an even match for an Aiel, but certainly not two or five.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 11:15:18
subject: <b>It assumes quite a bit.</b>
body:
Which is the whole problem of the theory.<br /><br />In short, there really is no reason to assume the White Cloak is Galad as opposed to any other White Cloak. <br /><br />None. <br /><br />It gets into the whole problem of 'Well, if it was, then he could've done this, which means it would've been this, which is an indication that it IS Galad' -- in other words, the only proof of this theory is based on the assumption it's Galad in the first place. <br /><br />This theory, as posted, would be equally valid if we substituted 'Child Byar' for 'Galad' (and frankly, make a lot more sense).


created: 2002-06-05 11:41:25
subject: <b>Galad IS one of the best, if not THE best in the world.</b>
body:
Somebody PLEASE put a sock in Vashti's mouth. Please?<br /><br />I'm not even going to get into his physical abilities here, but you mentioned Rand's ability. Don't you think that Warders train hand to hand?!?!?!?! Look at the two: Rand and Galad. Who would have time to practice more, who has more natural physical ability and who would want to be the best more (with a sword)? Sorry pal, you arent winning this one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> The only man alive (unable to channel and NOT ta'varen {The ONLY reason that Mat won<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> that could take Galad is Lan, and RJ's reluctance to answer a question &quot;Who would win a swordfight: Galad or Lan?&quot; in an interview on this site points that Galad may even get him. In fact, the person who asks it says that they would bet on Lan, and RJ tells him that he should spend his money on beer instead. Hmmmm....<br /><br />As for the theory, I like it. Although I agree with most of the points above, it adds alot to that part of the book thinking of exactly who that WC is. Personally, I would like to think that it is Byar. That WOULd be too cool!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 11:47:37
subject: <b>Hypothesis</b>
body:
Just a little comment on the &quot;is it really a theory or not&quot; issue.  I agree that this can't truely be called a theory.  However, I believe that many of the posts on the &quot;Theory Post&quot; can't truely be labeled &quot;Theories&quot;.  Perhaps the site should be renamed &quot;Hypothesis Post&quot;.  As has been mentioned, a theory is usually accompanied by a lot more facts.  A hypothesis is simply an educated guess based upon a relatively small set of observations that has yet to be disproved.  Regardless of what we call the submissions on the &quot;Theory Post&quot; thought, it is still one of my favorite sites on Wotmania.  And as was stated above, until the next book comes out with some new information, I am afraid that most of the submissions to this site will really be hypotheses and not theories.  I still feel that reading hypothesis is worth my time though, especially when the vote for those in favor of the theory is greater than 50%.  In those instances at least it may introduce me to a possibility I had not yet considered, whether it turns out to be true or not.<br /><br />In my opinion, Keep the well thought out Theories, Hypotheses, guesses etc. coming!  (Note the &quot;well thought out&quot; part though<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2002-06-05 12:01:49
subject: <b>Theory, Guess, whateva!</b>
body:
Wow, talk about getting bogged down in crap. <br /><br />Personally, I found this theory, or guess or whatever you pedantic people want to call it, great! It has been and is the most entertaining post on the theory board this week. Thats why I am here, for entertainment, I think some of you people loose that when you start quoting webster and stuff.<br /><br />I dig this &quot;guess&quot;, it would be pretty cool if it turns out this way. It puts Galad right where he needs to be for the plot to go how we have been thinking it will (Man in white stuff). <br /><br />I totally agree with the comments of endiot. I mean Galad does right to a fault, yes this is true, but he is not a freaking robot, cut him a little slack. He is not THAT narrow minded, he never turned in Elayne to the WC's afterall. <br /><br />Anyway, nothing to add to the &quot;guess&quot; that hasn't already been discussed, but keep these guesses coming, this one was great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 12:44:44
subject: <b>Galad - Galahad</b>
body:
I like Daemione's post about Galad's hypothetical imprisonment being a shaping influence on Galad, possibly bringing him into Rand's fold eventually.  This makes sense for another reason.  It has been repeatably demonstrated that Jordan's stuff often draws on legends, particularly Revelation and the Arthurian legends.  al'Thor = Arthur, eGwene al'Vere = Gwenevere, Caemlyn = Camelot, etc...  I haven't seen this anywhere (though I'm sure others have spotted it) is the Galad = Galahad connection, Galahad being Lancelot's true name.<br /><br />Consider the connections: morally rigid, beautiful (Lancelot is beautiful in many of the legends though not in The Once and Future King), a gifted (perhaps the most gifted) swordsman, and the name similarity.<br /><br />That connection made (possibly), one could expect Galad to come into the fold at some point.  The other big possibility would be a showdown between Rand and Galad since Jordan loves putting twists on the &quot;way we heard it&quot;, but since Gawyn is already all over the vendetta bit, I doubt that Jordan would use it for Galad.  I think Galad is about to come into Perrin's fold, and therefore Rand's.  His mother is already sworn, thus in a way, he's already somewhat comitted by his own oaths (his liege's liege's liege).


created: 2002-06-05 15:29:37
subject: <b>Show Us The Money</b>
body:
Actually, GG, I'm a little surprised at you.<br /><br />Aren't you and Columbo the ones always saying we should limit ourselves to what is there in the book?<br /><br />Fine, let's do that.<br /><br />Please stack Galad's accomplishments -- his resume, so to speak, against that of the following:<br /><br />Lan<br />Rand<br />Gawyn<br />Tam<br />Mat<br /><br />In every single one, FROM WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE BOOKS, Galad doesn't match up. Now, you may laugh at some, but be ready with your arguments, because I've got some already lined up.<br /><br />Now here's a new list of people who are in approximately the same category as Galad -- accomplishment-wise.<br /><br />Aram<br />Perrin<br />Loial<br />Luc/Slayer<br />Abel Cauthon<br />Vanin<br />Thom Merrilin<br />Any of a number of the Borderland warmasters<br />Numerous Aiel (Rhuarc, et al.)<br /><br />I know, you're chortling at the names, but if so, you're completely missing the point.  It doesn't matter if a major league baseball team beats every minor league team and if -- on paper -- they seem the best. What matters is who wins the World Series. Who wins the Super Bowl. Who wins the championship.  To be the best, you have to beat the best.<br /><br />So far, Galad has only gathered the praise or conquests of the second group.  Gareth Byrne called Vanin just about the deadliest man he knew.  I DO believe Gareth Byrne could be considered a fair judge. Aram is considered incredibly deadly by a heronblade master. Loial is never considered a fighter, but when he does, he's a walking catastrophe. Mat said his father was better than he was. Perrin? He could be in the first group, but I keep him in the second because he doesn't have the notches in his belt that someone like Rand or Mat does.  But he's serious and for real.<br /><br />You like quoting Jordan for your position? Okay...how about this:<br />&quot;He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you&#8217;re dead.&quot;<br />     -Lan Mandragoran<br /><br />Now, I'm sure everyone (myself included), regard Galad as one of the finest swordsmen around.  The build-up for that has been too big to ignore.  BUT...back to your frequently-stated standpoint:  You have to back up your words with what has been shown.<br /><br />Now, you can get mad at me writing this. You can get irritated at having your own hotly stated opinion used against you.  You can even get upset because maybe a favorite character of yours doesn't match the hype you give him. But...<br /><br />You can't find any demonstrable proof to back up what you say that sufficiently contradicts the arguments of almost half a dozen other candidates (and that's not even going into the Seanchan).  Sorry, you just can't. <br /><br />I guess what it boils down to is whether you accept hype or accomplishment as proof. I favor accomplishment.


created: 2002-06-05 16:44:31
subject: <b>more hypotheticals</b>
body:
This is getting pretty far off topic, but it's fun to think about.<br /><br />I think it's important to mention that the different characters have different areas of combat strength.  For example, in a toe to toe hack &amp; slash situation, characters like Thom &amp; Vanin probably aren't going to fare very well against someone like Lan.  But in another arena (political or criminal), Lan wouldn't have a chance.<br /><br />And different characters find strength from different areas.  Aram - his complete lack of self-preservation.  Galad - his innate athletic ability.  Lan - his experience &amp; determination.  Rand - well, from any number of things (desperation, Lews Therin, etc.).<br /><br />In any kind of hypothetical matchup, these context &amp; motive variables can't be ignored.  So to say that Rand can beat Galad isn't really accurate.  I believe that Galad's swordplay is technically superior, and in a &quot;friendly&quot; practice bout, Rand would not be able to keep up with him (ignoring saidin, of course).  But if it really came down to it, I don't think all the athleticism in the world would save Galad.  Rand has more than proven his ability to come out on top, no matter what the odds.  His victory over Turak in tGH is the first of many such situations.<br /><br />A good example here would be a Gawyn vs. Galad duel.  Despite what we saw in their last engagement (the practice yard in tDR), I'd put my money on Gawyn in a balls-to-the-wall melee.<br /><br />Also, I'm curious as to Abell Cauthon's actual prowess.  Mat has stated that his father is better than him, but Mat has changed quite a bit since he's seen his father.  The last time they squared off, Abell was the better.  Now, with Mat's ridiculous luck, an Aes Sedai forged weapon, centuries of battle experience crammed in his head, and a good amount of actual combat experience, I wouldn't be surprised if Mat has surpassed his &quot;da&quot; by quite a bit.<br /><br />But anyway, back to the theory . . . .   I think there's more evidence for it than credit is being given.  Granted, some is circumstantial, and some of the evidence (man in white) is based on another theory.  But given the available characters, Galad makes the most sense to fill that role.<br /><br />Some other widely accepted theories use similiar elimination logic, with even less hard evidence (Mesaana's identity, Asmodean's killer, &amp; Adeleas's killer, to name a few).<br /><br />And can anyone track down the specific exerpts regarding the group of Whitecloaks in the vicinity of Perrin &amp; the Shaido?  Their actions &amp; motives could be crucial evidence here.


created: 2002-06-05 16:51:22
subject: <b>Very entertaining indeed....</b>
body:
Good thoughts. I'll admit that I wish there was more evidence.  Although I enjoy all the speculation.  I like the idea of the prisoner being Galad.  I also like the idea of the prisoner being Child Byar.  The lack of evidence to back up either one hasn't kept me from visualizing the possibilities.  Thanks to the author for creating something that entertains!<br /><br />To those who believe that Galad wouldn't break under Shaido torture,  I have this - There are few characters in this series that would make it that long before breaking and everyone can be broken!  <br /><br />Wouldn't allow anyone to capture him???  Somtimes you have no choice in the matter.  Before Rand was captured by the Aes Sedai I doubt that anyone would have believed that Rand was capturable.<br /><br />Again, thanks for the entertainment.  I will keep my eyes open for the facts that might add to this theory.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 17:14:12
subject: <b>to vashti</b>
body:
where does it say that gareth said that vanin was about the deadliest man he knew?<br /><br />Isn't vanin mat's chief scout?  I don't remember gareth saying that, but maybe you can refresh my memory.<br /><br />As for all the previous theory distinctions I posted, I was did that for a specific reason.  I did it to show why we can't make heads or tails with this theory.  Since this theory is only based on one piece of information it can be applied equally to just about all the major whitecloaks, and even the minor ones.<br /><br />Personally, I like it when good speculation is posted to the Theorypost, but we have to be able to recognize it as such.  Plus, if no 'guesses' were posted, theorypost would just about disappear cause pretty much all of the well-supported stuff has already been taken.  <br /><br />cheers<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 18:51:45
subject: <b>do you guys know the expression....</b>
body:
Ever heard the expression beating a dead horse... To everyone who is arguing about the nature of theories, hypothesis, and guesses, who really cares? I don't have to classify an idea to know whether I support it or even like it. I like the originality of his idea. I would rather read a new &quot;theory&quot; about something not entirely substantiated then read a dozen more similar &quot;theories&quot; about Mat inventing gun powder no matter how much &quot;evidence&quot; they provide. Also Those who have disagreed with this theory by saying that this seems to be break in Galad's character have a legitimate point as well. In short who really gives a flying f#ck about how it is classified as long as it is interesting.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I would rather be feared then loved <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-05 20:44:59
subject: <b>*Groan* Are you actually trying to argue with ME?</b>
body:
If you are, just stop right now and go back to your theory on how Moiraine went through the doorway in Rhiudean <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Okay, you want to talk facts, lets talk facts.<br /><br />&quot;Please stack Galad's accomplishments -- his resume, so to speak, against that of the following:<br /><br />Lan<br />Rand<br />Gawyn<br />Tam<br />Mat<br /><br />In every single one, FROM WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE BOOKS, Galad doesn't match up. Now, you may laugh at some, but be ready with your arguments, because I've got some already lined up.&quot;<br /><br />First of all, IMHO, we cannot compare Galad to Rand, Perrin OR Mat (and that includes the Galad/Gawyn/Mat match) fairly becuase of one simple thing that was in the books, and the word may have just slipped your mind: Ta'varen. Do you really think that Rand, after not even a year of training, could have defeated Turak? If you do, then there is no point in arguing with you because you don't know your Arse from a hole in the ground. The reason that Rand came out on top was because he was (and here's that slippery word again) Ta'varen. Same reason why Perrin can kill Fades in book 3, with a bloody axe. TA'VAREN.<br /><br />Next, While I won't argue with you that he could beat Tam and/or Lan (although I feel he could, they are just waaaaay too cool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) I would like to ask you about something else. Gawyn? GAWYN??? I should petition for your screen name to be wiped off of this site if you just come here to annoy people! WTF did Gawyn ever beat?!?!?!?! Wait. I think I remember. Hammar? A blademaster? Is... is that who you are saying vaulted Gawyn into the 'elite' ranks? Last I remember, MONTHS before the White Tower split, Galad wouldn't even come to the training grounds anymore because (drumroll, please) He could beat Hammar 2 out of 3 without trying hard at all. And not just in swords, either. If you remember, when Mat fought G&amp;G, he picked up a quarterstaff from a multitude of weapons such as swords, staffs, spears, etc. Do you not think that Warder trainees would have to learn them all? No? Yeah, you wouldn't. Same thing goes for hand to hand; they would have to learn it. Just like the Aiel, Warders are bad mofo's. In fact, with an equal number of Warders facing Aiel, I'm not so sure that the Aiel would be leaving that day. Then again, most of the Warders, if any, wouldnt either. MY POINT IS (lol) that Warders have to train with ALL weapons including their body. If Galad was an expert with a sword already, don't you think that he would have picked up another weapon to learn, or do you think that he would ALWAYS expect to have a sword? <br /><br />That's not really here or there. So Galad's weapon of choice is a sword. Big deal! We don't fault Lan for that. Oh, and BTW, Gawyn repeatedly remerks on how Galad can whoop his arse without breaking a sweat, so I guess that takes 1 of your fair 3 elite out, right? Right. Moving on.<br /><br />Tam. Now, he is possibly my favorite character in the books, so this is hard to say, but... he's old. Not old in the way that Lan is (travelling around killing people for 20 years doesnt let you lose your edge) but old in the sense that HE'S BEEN A FARMER FOR 20 YEARS. Heck, even Aram can push him within a month of picking up a sword (as remerked in tSR). Bye bye Tam. Jeez, your ranks are falling to nothing here, hey?<br /><br />Lan. Now this is one, BAD, dude. He is an expert at everything as far as weapons go, and he's killed blademasters. Remember that quote you gave?<br /><br />&quot;He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you&#8217;re dead.&quot;<br />-Lan Mandragoran<br /><br />Yeah, that's the one. Do you remember how he beat that guy? (cant remember the guy's name) The guys made a mistake. Bottom line. He let up and Lan killed him. Now don't get me wrong, your insides and how you view things are immensley important to fighting, but to stand there and say that Galad is not a hard man is, well, stupid. I'm sorry, but it is. Remember when he killed (oh jeez. How many WAS it?), well, at LEAST a dozen men with Uno and the other Shinerians? Remember that the SHINERIANS, battle hardened by killing for their entire lives (unless you want to dispute that?) were in awe, REPEAT: in AWE of Galad after that? Of course you do, because you know the books so well, right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As for your second group, I could go through them name by name and destory THAT list, too, but I won't. I agree with it. In fact, there are only 3 things that I dissagree with you on, and they are small points. <br /><br />1: Vanin should not be in the running for best fighter. I see what your saying, but he's deadly in the way of slipping a knife in your back, not gutting Aiel.<br /><br />2: I think that Rhuarc should be in group 1.<br /><br />3: You don't include Galad, which I think is just because of stubborn pride.<br /><br />&quot;You have to back up your words with what has been shown.&quot;<br /><br />Check.<br /><br />&quot;You can get irritated at having your own hotly stated opinion used against you.&quot;<br /><br />How was that again?<br /><br />&quot;You can't find any demonstrable proof to back up what you say that sufficiently contradicts the arguments of almost half a dozen other candidates. Sorry, you just can't. &quot;<br /><br />Read above. If you don't think that Galad could kill Loial, or ANY of the other men mentioned (excluding Lan and the Ta'varen) in mortal combat, then your opinion aint worth, well, 'brown stuff'.<br /><br />&quot;I favor accomplishment.&quot;<br /><br />Then you must be pretty down on yourself right now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If you want to flame, let's rock. I have the facts (unlike my favorite &quot;Moiraine in the Doorway&quot; trick) and you don't seem to. Unless you can come up with some proof for why they could kill one of the most deadly and dangerous men in the story, don't bother posting because this will happen again, and it's hurting you more than it does me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 21:19:19
subject: <b>to kael</b>
body:
Lol.  I guess you probably wouldn't the study of logic.  But what is the other saying 'To each to his own?'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 22:08:10
subject: <b>Okay...</b>
body:
&quot;First of all, IMHO, we cannot compare Galad to Rand, Perrin OR Mat (and that includes the Galad/Gawyn/Mat match) fairly becuase of one simple thing that was in the books, and the word may have just slipped your mind: Ta'varen.&quot;<br /><br />------- No, it didn't slip my mind.  That does not change the fact that they have accomplished far, far more than Galad.  You're looking for excuses, I'm presenting facts; however they're come by. Their advantages may be countered by the deadliness of their foes.<br /><br />&quot;Gawyn? GAWYN??? I should petition for your screen name to be wiped off of this site if you just come here to annoy people! WTF did Gawyn ever beat?!?!?!?! Wait. I think I remember. Hammar? A blademaster?&quot;<br /><br />--------Since you like quotes, &quot;Who would've thought that Gawyn would prove to be the more dangerous one?&quot;<br /><br /><br />&quot;Is... is that who you are saying vaulted Gawyn into the 'elite' ranks? Last I remember, MONTHS before the White Tower split, Galad wouldn't even come to the training grounds anymore because (drumroll, please) He could beat Hammar 2 out of 3 without trying hard at all.&quot; <br />&lt;ongoing rant snipped for brevity&gt;<br /><br />-------- Practice is very different from reality. As you so eloquently stated later in your note, skill isn't the only thing.<br /><br />&quot;That's not really here or there. So Galad's weapon of choice is a sword. Big deal! We don't fault Lan for that. Oh, and BTW, Gawyn repeatedly remerks on how Galad can whoop his arse without breaking a sweat, so I guess that takes 1 of your fair 3 elite out, right? Right. Moving on.&quot;<br /><br />----- Have you not recognized that Gawyn has undergone a change? He is no longer standing in the shadows; he is a Power in his own right, a leader of men (which Galad is not), and barely acknowledges even the 'true' Amyrlin Seat as a superior.  Things change.  <br /><br />&quot;Tam. Now, he is possibly my favorite character in the books, so this is hard to say, but... he's old. Not old in the way that Lan is (travelling around killing people for 20 years doesnt let you lose your edge) but old in the sense that HE'S BEEN A FARMER FOR 20 YEARS. Heck, even Aram can push him within a month of picking up a sword (as remerked in tSR). Bye bye Tam. Jeez, your ranks are falling to nothing here, hey?&quot;<br /><br />-------- You seem to have forgotten something: Tam has NOT been a farmer for the past year or three; he has been a warleader.  And his sparring partners have been Warders and Hotshot Aram.  I'm sure he shed the few extra pounds many months ago.  He FOUGHT his way up the Companions.  He, more than perhaps anyone in this series, has earned his reputation.  Lan has, but he's also been helped by Warder advantages (and the finest teachers a downed kingdom can afford).  He had the skill already, he has the experience, and lately he's had the practice. Ding.<br /><br />&quot;Lan. Now this is one, BAD, dude. He is an expert at everything as far as weapons go, and he's killed blademasters. Yeah, that's the one. Do you remember how he beat that guy? (cant remember the guy's name) The guys made a mistake. Bottom line. He let up and Lan killed him. Now don't get me wrong, your insides and how you view things are immensley important to fighting, but to stand there and say that Galad is not a hard man is, well, stupid.&quot;<br /><br />------ Your implication here is that Toram wasn't hard. And the mistake he made was overconfident. I believe that Galad is very dangerously close to the same mistake. He simply doesn't think he can be beat.  As they say, it ain't braggin' if you can back it up. Well, Toram could back it up-- until he met Lan (and sorta Rand).  Galad will also back it up until the ONE time he makes the wrong mistake; and that time he, too, will die.  He NEVER assumes he can lose (just as Toram did) and he's right -- until the one time he does.<br /><br />Oh, and PLEASE point out where I ever said anything that could be remotely interpreted as 'Galad is not a hard man'? GG, are you making things up again? You need to stop that.<br /><br />&quot;I'm sorry, but it is. Remember when he killed (oh jeez. How many WAS it?), well, at LEAST a dozen men with Uno and the other Shinerians? Remember that the SHINERIANS, battle hardened by killing for their entire lives (unless you want to dispute that?) were in awe, REPEAT: in AWE of Galad after that? Of course you do, because you know the books so well, right&quot; <br /><br />-------- Ah, now we come to your oft-repeated main point.  He is held in grudging awe by Shienarans (grudging because they don't like him, but true awe nonetheless)....who I also think hold several of the warmasters of the other Border Kingdoms in awe.  Rand is held in awe. So is Lan. So are others. <br /><br />&quot;As for your second group, I could go through them name by name and destory THAT list, too, but I won't. I agree with it. In fact, there are only 3 things that I dissagree with you on, and they are small points. <br /><br />1: Vanin should not be in the running for best fighter. I see what your saying, but he's deadly in the way of slipping a knife in your back, not gutting Aiel.&quot;<br /><br />------ Noted. I included him purely to add a different perspective.<br /><br />&quot;2: I think that Rhuarc should be in group 1.&quot;<br /><br />-------- I considered putting him there, but I held rigorously to my own standards -- we haven't seen what he's done to 'earn' it. <br /><br />&quot;3: You don't include Galad, which I think is just because of stubborn pride.&quot;<br /><br />------------ Or perhaps he's not in that group because those are the people to WHOM HE IS BEIING COMPARED.  Logic 101. <br /><br />&quot;Read above. If you don't think that Galad could kill Loial, or ANY of the other men mentioned (excluding Lan and the Ta'varen) in mortal combat, then your opinion aint worth, well, 'brown stuff'.&quot;<br /><br />------- Of course, I haven't said any of this, have I? I rank Galad in the top half dozen. Where, I'm not sure. not in the top 3, though.  I merely want him to start having some incredibly impressive victories under his belt, the way the rest of them have.  So far, the best thing he's done is impressed some rank-and-file veteran soldiers in a mob struggle, and excelled at his Warder training. <br /><br />Let's see him beat a Turak, a Toram, a Slayer, a Forsaken, Shadar Haren, or something.  I'm sure he will (for some of them), BUT HE HASN'T DONE IT YET!!!!  How many times do I have to remind you this is my point?  Wait...here: I'll type s-l-o-w-l-y.<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;I favor accomplishment.&quot;<br /><br />Then you must be pretty down on yourself right now&quot;<br /><br />------Whatever for? <br /><br />&quot;If you want to flame, let's rock.&quot;<br />------Sorry, I don't flame. (lucky for you)<br /><br />&quot;I have the facts&quot;<br />--------- Where? so far all I see is hype and circumstantial evidence.<br /><br />&quot;(unlike my favorite &quot;Moiraine in the Doorway&quot; trick) and you don't seem to. Unless you can come up with some proof for why they could kill one of the most deadly and dangerous men in the story, don't bother posting because this will happen again, and it's hurting you more than it does me.&quot;<br /><br />---------- Twisting words into something else doesn't prove you're right, it merely proves you're manipulative and not dedicated to honesty.  You may persist in re-coloring things however you wish, but it doesn't change what it is.<br /><br />I'll close with a paraphrased Richard Pryor line: &quot;A &lt;butt&gt;hole is a butthole! You can't do nuthin' to it! You can put flowers and ribbons an' stuff around it, but then it's just a pretty &lt;butt&gt;hole -- but it's still a &lt;butt&gt;hole!!!&quot;<br /><br />Your argument, sir, also does not benefit from flowers and ribbons.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-06 02:13:50
subject: <b>sheesh</b>
body:
oh, bitch, bitch, bitch.<br /><br /><br />btw, I find both the Galad &amp; the Byar possibilities interesting, so thanks to the author for bringing it up.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> *snicker, snicker*<br />Part-Time Lurker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Pagans; into sex, death, and religion, in an interesting late night tv sort of way.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 11:08:35
subject: <b>Damn you RJ!!!</b>
body:
You've reduced us to re-fighting old arguments already fought! November can't come quick enough!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />BTW, the theory or guess has lead to much discussion, and I'd like to say great work on bringing it about, whether it is right or wrong, whether it is a theory or a guess, and whether Vashti is really RJ or not.<br /><br />Peace, out. V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 14:14:34
subject: <b>GG and Vashti....... behave.</b>
body:
&quot;What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog.&quot;<br />                       -- Dwight D Eisenhower.<br /><br />Do we have to argue about what we know to be true.  Galad is one to be reckoned with.  He has already shown that.  Whether or not he's the best really doesn't matter.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 19:07:01
subject: <b>Why am I responding to you anymore?</b>
body:
You would think that I would learn not to talk to people who are all opinions and no facts here, but I guess you'd be wrong.<br /><br />I'm not going to go through your post point by point because I don't have time, but I will sum some things up real quick for you to try and cram into your head.<br /><br />1: Gawyn has not proved himself anymore than Galad has. You say that his main accomplishment was killing Hammar? Wow. Something that Gawyn himself admits Galad could do no sweat.<br /><br />2: &quot;Their advantages may be countered by the deadliness of their foes.&quot;<br /><br />WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN? Did you REALLY think that Rand could kill Forsaken and blademasters with his skill w/the power or a sword? Especially in the first few books? They cannot die until the Pattern allows it, and therefore cannot lose a deadly fight.<br /><br />3: Your quote about Gawyn being the more dangerous one. That was not the exact quote. If you know who said it, when and in light of what (as I do) then put it down. You're just trying to slip one in so that paople will think you know what you're talking about. It won't work with me.<br /><br />4: Skill isnt the only thing? You apparently think that Galad has none. He is THE most talented sword fighter in the westlands bar none, the only reason that Lan could take him on is due to experience, which Galad has quite a bit of already.<br /><br />5: I never said that Gawyn hasn't changed, but as you always seem to do, you're getting off track here. We're not talking about Gawyn's political views, or leadership abilities (Galad is already a high ranking commander in the WC's), we're talking about who would win in a sword fight. Get it straight. If Gawyn admits that Galad can beat him no sweat, then why NOT believe him? Gawyn is NOT in the top ranks. In fact, I can't wait until Rand slaps his face.<br /><br />6: Tam is 50+ years old. With no Warder skills (?) as you said, he cannot hope to keep up with a man like Galad. Mabye 20 years ago, but not now. Sorry.<br /><br />7: This is a point where I may be wrong, and if I am, it's not really a big deal. You say that Lan killed Toram and then said that &quot;one arm&quot; stuff? Wasn't it his friend in NS that he killed and said that? I could be wrong here, could someone please help with a quote? Also, if Galad says that he can kill a man, or is not afraid of him, then I think that we should believe him. After all, he could beat a Blademaster 2 of 3 without breaking a sweat.<br /><br />8: The shinerians in awe of Galad. I have never, EVER read ANYTHING that showed that they were as awed by anyone's skills as much as they were by Galad's. Can you provide a quote? No? <br /><br />They are in awe of Lan because he is a Borderland King with no country and still carries on the fight, blah, blah, blah. Also, if I rmember right, they were in awe of rand because he ws the Dragon. Until then, they looked down on him. Remember Masema?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 19:55:18
subject: <b>GG and V</b>
body:
You guys have both made some impressive commentaries in the past, but I really am finding myself starting to lose respect for both of you. GG Siuanne makes the comment (I believe in her head) about Gw. being the more dangerous after Min tells her about him killing Hammar. V the warrior who Lan beats in NS is Rynne or something like that. He is a dark friend. As for the debate, remember that these people do not actually exist (sorry if that sounds condescending but it is important to keep that in mind sometimes). It really isn't worth getting that riled up about. If the two ever face each other or if RJ our lord god ever makes a distinctive comment we will know. Until then lets move on to other things. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I would rather be feared then loved <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-06 20:43:34
subject: <b>Point, Set and Match</b>
body:
&quot;1: Gawyn has not proved himself anymore than Galad has.&quot; <br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />A brief review shows that this, is indeed the point (in reverse) that I have been making.  I accept that Gawyn has not 'proven' himself enough to be considered the best, seeing as you have just conceded the entire point of this debate about Galad. (critical words: &quot;...anymore than Galad has&quot;.<br /><br />I'm done with this.  From now on, when someone calls Galad the best (until he earns that title), I'll let Green Gaidin deal with them, as he has so thoroughly demonstrated the point.


created: 2002-06-07 01:44:49
subject: <b>lol @ Vashti.</b>
body:
That is what you call a cop-out. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. You just won't leave until you're beat, and then when you are, you try to go out on a high note. Guess what Costanza? It didn't work. <br /><br />The aformentioned point was to illustrate that you were holding a double standard, and you know it. I find it strange that you did not argue with any of my other points. I'll take that to mean that you got redballed (ie. you couldnt come back to those points effectivley. Man, you've been getting redballed quite a bit latley, hey?).<br /><br />If you can't defend against the facts, then you shouldn't be posting here. End of discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 03:17:05
subject: <b>Ummm.... Wow! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I just dropped by to see how my theory was getting picked apart &lt;grin&gt; and ... well, to be honest I'm a bit amazed that so many posts have been dedicated to a casual comment I made in post.   <br />I'm an insomniac (as you can note from the time stamp on most of my posts) &lt;grin&gt; and sometimes I say something that's not, well, let's say 'meant' the way it came out.<br />For the record, I don't consider Galad 'the best' but can we all agree that he's probably, possibly, maybe one of the best? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />I'd have to scroll back through the posts to see who originally suggested that the Whitecloak might be Child Byar... I have to admit I never even thought of him!  <br />If it's not Galad, I really kinda hope it is Byar or even Bornhald, Jr.  Just because it'd be interesting to see how that plays out.<br />This is of course pure theory, speculation, hypothesis, guess, hunch. <br />I now return you to your regularly scheduled posting.<br /><br />&quot;I know you think you understood what you thought I meant, but I don't think you realize that what you thought I meant isn't really what I said.&quot;  ~Aes Sedai Logic<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 03:03:31
subject: <b>Just a minor point</b>
body:
&quot;WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN? Did you REALLY think that Rand could kill Forsaken and blademasters with his skill w/the power or a sword? Especially in the first few books? They cannot die until the Pattern allows it, and therefore cannot lose a deadly fight.&quot;<br />Which they is this? If you refer to the <i>ta'veren</i>, then they can be killed, and die. Remember all Moiraine's comments to Rand about how if he goes and gets killed the Creator will produce no miracles to save them. Of course we know Mat ain't gonna die yet 'cause he hasn't married Tuon, but he could be. Remember all the Worlds That Might Be, where Rand died at different times? <i>Ta'veren</i> does not equal immortal. It equals damn lucky, but not immortal. <br />As for the endless discussion as to who is the best, Rand is far and away the best even sans <i>saidin</i>. In Far Madding, he offed an armed man with his bare hands in three seconds flat. True, the guy wasn't a blademaster, but still...He would have killed the other, too. Rand is simply the best.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 16:47:39
subject: <b>Author of previous comments</b>
body:
Taveren does equal immortal in a way.  If Mat, as an example stays on his thread of fate,  he is immortal until he has accomplished what is required of him.  Also being strongly Taveren,  Mat hasn't much choice in the matter.  I imagine the only way for Mat to sidestep his fate would take an incredible amount of will power on his part as he is being forced along by the pattern.  <br /><br />Rand killed a man in Far Madding with his bare hands!  WOW! Big deal!  Why would you use this as your reference for Rand being the best? Lan once killed three gray men in 30 sec. with his bare hands.<br /><br />Rand is the Dragon.  He is the most dangerous of the bunch.  We should exclude Rand, Mat and Perrin as they are basically immortal until the pattern is finished with them.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 19:54:03
subject: <b>jeez</b>
body:
first off, Rand is the greatest. Second all the people being argued over are bad ass. no disput any could kill another(excucing OP an ta'varen). third why argue about cause GG and V you sound like two four year olds arguing over who the best power ranger is. so SHUT UP!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />now for the thoery, cool. id like to think it was Byar, but Galad would be too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 02:39:12
subject: <b>lol.</b>
body:
Power Rangers. lol. Good one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 11:36:12
subject: <b>hmmmmmm</b>
body:
and hmmmm again!<br /><br />I hadn't even considered it but the more I do the more I like it.  Wouldn't it all come together nicely if it was Galad?<br /><br />I have no problem (unlike so many others) with the idea of Galad crying.  After all the punishment he had received at the hands of the Shaido, who wouldn't cry at the thought of more?<br />Interestingly the possibility that Daemione posted to explain how Galad could have been taken alive had already occured to me.  Seems plausible to me.<br />Here's another thought that I didn't see.  Perhaps the Shaido, as part of Galad's punishment, gave him a scar or two across his pretty face, so he's not so pretty any more.  That might serve to bring him down a notch or two and teach him how to be more human.<br /><br />Good theory.<br />


created: 2002-06-20 05:28:20
subject: <b>Shame on you all.............</b>
body:
FOR FORGETTING ABOUT BELA!!! Everyone knows that Bela is the fiercest warrior in all of WoT! I mean, come on! Bela's carried some of the most important good guys (Rand, Egwene, others) on her back. She's rode into battles with Trollocs UNARMED (which, according to some of the IDIOTS [see: Vashti] on this blackboard, makes someone more deadly) and come out alive. BELA IS THE GREATEST FIGHTER IN RANDLAND!!!!!<br /><br />You know what's sad? This post makes as much sense, has as much depth, and uses as many facts from the book as most of the other posts on this blackboard. Some people here apparently think they can construct buildings on foundations of dust, empty space, and fecile matter. Newsflash: IT DOESN'T WORK!!!<br /><br />kael: I'm hoping that even these IDIOTS understand that Santa Claus isn't real, the tooth fairy isn't real, and WoT characters (yep, you guessed it) AREN'T REAL!!! Maybe I am overestimating their intelligence, but I doubt even they could be this stupid.<br /><br />Vashti: What exactly is your definition of the word 'fact.' Or is 'fact' simply your code word for 'vague information that I can twist and build on so that I can atempt to look intelligent'? From now on, please stop calling your opinions 'facts.'<br /><br />Columbo: If you give the needle so repeatedly, eventually everyone will get overdosed. Is it humanly possible for you to post w/out your daily dosage of sarcasm? Oh well, at least you're funny when you argue w/ people... others can't pull that off.<br /><br />Green Gaidin: Your name fits. You are a Warder. No matter how many times people criticize you for attacking Vashti's opinions, someone has to, 'else we'll all be overwhelmed by wave after wave of bulls**t.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 17:35:49
subject: <b>Yeah, too bad 'Aan'allein' is taken.</b>
body:
I apparently am &quot;The man alone&quot;.<br /><br />lol. Well, there are a few others. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 01:10:34
subject: <b>One quick note...</b>
body:
While rereading WH, I came upon an interesting quote. Sulin just returned from scouting out the ambush site, with the cut up dresses and arrows. She tell Perrin that Faile lives and that she was taken as a captive. Also she says that &quot;three of the men would have been taken but they fought too hard. They were killed with spear and knife, the rest with bow and arrow.&quot; Or close to that, I don't have my book with right now. Now after all of the droning on and on about how bad Galad is and his honor and the multitude of other attributes that have been listed ad infinitum. Don't you think that Galad would have been killed for &quot;fighting too hard&quot;, especially if a couple of common soldiers and one of &quot;Cha'Faile&quot; were killed for it. Galad is a much beter fighter than any of them. That leaves the OP to capture him. I just don't see him being the prisoner. <br /><br />Now as to recapturing an escaped prisoner. The pinnicle of pride are the Aiel. If anyone ever escaped they would search until they found that person(s) and make them wish they had never tried. I sure wouldn't want a pissed Aiel, nevermind a Shaido, taking out their wounded pride on my hide.<br /><br />All that said, it could be any WC. I would agree with many above that Dain Bornhold or Jor Bryar would be great in that role (they both deserve it). Another great thing will be the fight between Galad and Emon Valda. That would give Galad some more EXPERIENCE that we can see. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 11:40:53
subject: <b>great!</b>
body:
This is one of the best theories in here. Good because some theories are so loaded with evidence that they have to be true (boring) and others are so far-fetched that they just get laughed at (annoying)<br /><br />This one might just be true. I very much like the idea of that whitecloak being Galad. And I like to think that that in itsself is also a clue. It would give such a good twist to the story, Galad suddenly seeing his stepmother would definitely enrage him enough to want to try a tenth escape attempt, which then coincides with Perrin's fierce attack on the shaido.<br /><br />Even if in the long term this theory turns out to be false, I still think RJ wanted some people to come up with this.


created: 2002-08-01 15:51:30
subject: <b>Rand Overrated</b>
body:
Rand is overrated.  He is good, very good, but not the best.  He barely beats Turak, fights Toram to a draw, and is pretty much played with by Be'lal.  Most telling, Lan (who should know since he trained him), thinks Couladin would poke him full of holes.  Now granted, he probably could be the best ever, but he has more important things to do (like being the most powerful channeler in the world).  Lan has shown himself throughout the books to be a very, very good swordsman.  Galad and Gawyn are both very good.  I give even odds on either one of them in a fight with Lan, probably better than even against Rand.  Mat, however, is from what we've seen the deadliest.  He beat Gawyn and Galad at once.  Sure, Gawyn lost because he was overconfident, but he still beat Galad fair and square.  You can say whatever you want about that fight, but Mat was weak as hell and still came out on top.  He certainly had Hammar's respect.  He was also the one who beat Couladin, who was &quot;born with spears in his hands&quot; and who nobody seemed to have any doubt would kill Rand.  As for where Tam has been for the past twenty years, where has Galad been?  Go work a few years on a farm and see how &quot;soft&quot; you get then go live a few years in a palace and see how &quot;hard&quot; it makes you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  And if Tam has anything on Galad it's wisdom, he would probably put an arrow through before Galad's eye got within a hundred paces of him. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  As far as the actual theory goes, I like the twist of the man in white being a whitecloak AND a gai'shan (not to mention Galad picking up a few scars).


created: 2002-09-19 08:03:15
subject: <b>Just one more comment...</b>
body:
I know it is WAY too late for this comment, but what the heck.  I like this theory/hypothesis/hunch/WHATEVER.  It definitely sparks the imagination.  And I think with limited facts, it is a great line of thinking.<br /><br />And the side note... Aiel think a well-placed scar would make a man better looking.  One of the maidens said this about Rand even.<br /><br />Thanks for the thought provoking commentary.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Where do I sign up?


created: 2002-10-29 17:24:41
subject: <b>I agree: Child Byar</b>
body:
oh wow, that would be great! Just picture our own little Berlain wooing that naughty Child Byar.<br />&quot;Hit me again mummy!&quot;...<br />How risque!


created: 2003-02-08 20:21:06
subject: <b>It COULD be Galad</b>
body:
Ok, these points have probably been made before, but here goes:<br />1) If Galad was perhaps leading a group of Whitecloaks and saw that they would all die in a fight, he would command them to surrender. He might be a fight to the death guy when it comes to he himself, but, where others are concerned, I think he'd try to preserve life (especially when the blood would be on his hands).<br />2) Even RAND &quot;I'm a rock&quot; Al' Thor was broken. ANYONE can be broken given enough time. I know Rand was broken before he REALLY began his hardening process, but I still think he was 10x harder than Galad. Galad isn't as hard as he seems; he just doesn't always rely on emotion.<br />3) If Galad was captured, and he thought the danger he was in was great enough, he WOULD try to escape; think about it: die of exhaustion or get help to free yourself and your men (assuming there were others with him).<br />It could very well be Galad. I think it'd be neat...


created: 2004-03-11 13:20:27
subject: <b>Theory or not?</b>
body:
A wise man once said<br /><br />If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.<br />-Albert Einstein <br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 12:48:52
subject: <b>I'm first</b>
body:
I was thinking that the idyllic island was the site of the Sharon (sp?), but I just wanted to be first to comment. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 12:59:08
subject: <b>Bore drilling</b>
body:
I disagree with two points, though I give props for creativity.  I do not think sealing the Dark One will lead to the loss of the One Power world-wide because<br />  1) They used the One Power in the AOL before the Bore was drilled.<br />  2) Jordan's world is driven by the OP just as our world is driven by physics.  He uses channeling as a metaphor for technology.<br /><br />The second thing I disagree with is that the man who drilled the Bore with Mierin is unimportant.  I think he is one of the most important people in the series.  Mierin becomes so powerful as Lanfear; how could her &quot;partner&quot; be so obviously absent from the equation.  He's got to be Ishmael or the avatar of the Dark One.  Just imagine if this dude was the Dark One, he and Mierin actually had tapped pretty much absolute power, and he grabbed it and it corrupted him absolutely.  Jordan's always said he had the ending planned from the beginning!  This would also explain why Mierin (Lanfear) actually considers challenging the Dark One (with LTT and the Choedan Kal) as she would know his origins.<br /><br />Much more likely of course that he's just Ishmael.


created: 2002-06-05 13:05:42
subject: <b>One thing to remember</b>
body:
The One Power is not an Aversion to the order.  Think about it.  The Wheel is driven by the True Source of Power from which the One Power is drawn.  Therefore, it cannot be an aversion to order.  It helps create the order.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 13:15:14
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
RJ described a palpable thinness in the pattern definitely centered on SG.  Of course I don't have a direct quote, but I'm almost certain that it was close to 'palpable thinnes'.  This would indicate that the Bore is centered physically at SG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 14:05:32
subject: <b>The Prison</b>
body:
The Dark One is sealed outside the pattern. As the seals weaken he can begin to influence events....'touch' the pattern. <br />In the prologue to LOC Demandreds POV.....Shayol Ghul is no closer to the prison than anywhere else in WOTworld, but a thinness in the pattern allows it(the prison and the bore)to be sensed. The Prison is outside the pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 14:10:53
subject: <b>Beidomon</b>
body:
is Mierin's partner in the drilling. Definitely not Ishamael whose AOL name was Elan Morin Tedronai. I agree we will be seeing Beidomon again, but if he was one of the forsaken sealed up by the hundred companions, Rand would know from LTT or have learned from Asmo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 14:58:34
subject: <b>Moirane's comments</b>
body:
I never thought that Moirane's comments that &quot;the pattern can be torn in Tear&quot; meant that the pattern was necessarily thinner in Tear than anywhere else, but rather that there were enough ta'veren gathered in one place, and enough battling going on to change whatever weaving the wheel was doing, possibly tearing it in the violent process.  I don't have the books at hand, but I'm pretty sure that there are numerous references in other places of people saying that to do such and such would tear the pattern, blah blah blah.  Also, since Moirane used balefire, that could have something to do with affecting the pattern, too, although she certainly cannot create balefire anywhere near the strength of Rand's.  Anyway, I digress terribly.  I don't think that Moirane's statement had anything to do with a thinness of the pattern, and thus can't be used to support this argument.


created: 2002-06-05 15:25:12
subject: <b>Actually, Moiraine's comment was relevant</b>
body:
She had no way of knowing that Mat was in the city, so that would be only two ta'veren.  And, most of the time, she had all three ta'veren with her, but never said anything important about it.  To say, verbatim, &quot;The pattern can be torn, here&quot; means that there is something about Tear specifically.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 17:39:01
subject: <b>re: nature of the bore</b>
body:
To the first part of your theory about the bore and shayul ghul not being linked, it states that clearly in LoC by Demadred.  He says the shayol ghul lies no closer to the bore than anyother other place in the world, but a thinness in the pattern allows it to be sensed.  So the book &quot;clearly&quot; states they aren't related.  No need to repeat common knowledge.<br /><br />To the next part about the one power and chaos being antithesis to the pattern is incorrect.  The one power drives the pattern, the pattern is what is.  Good and evil, order and chaos, so even if the one power does create chaos, which I don't buy, it wouldn't matter, everything goes into the pattern.  Besides the one power can be used to create order and as stated before, they had access to the one power in the AoL before the dark one was known.  <br /><br />Nice try, but the facts don't fit your thesis


created: 2002-06-05 21:30:58
subject: <b>Moiraine's comments on Tear</b>
body:
I got the impression that when Moiraine said that, she was referring to whether or not Rand succeeded in obtaining Callandor.  <br />If he hadn't, the Pattern certainly could have been torn. If Rand had failed to be able to take Callandor, or if Rand took it and then was defeated by one of the male Forsaken... well, you see where this would lead.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 23:24:25
subject: <b>Some good thoughts, but a little off base</b>
body:
I like the aplication of physics to the problem of the Bore and Pattern, especially since Jordan as a physicist has probably played with modern theoretical concepts in his ideas for novels even before the Wheel of Time as we know it began to flesh out in his mind. A couple of quick things, then on with the show. 1.) The Pattern is not the &quot;avatar&quot; of Order so to speak. According to Moiraine's dialouge w/ Perrin in TDR, the pattern weaves all life into its Lace. I believe Perrin compares it to a blacksmith smelting and working iron along with lesser and tainted metals in a hodgepodge of chaos and order, good and evil. The Pattern itself is neither Choas nor Order, neither Good nor Evil. It just is. The Creator is the concept of Order, The DO the concept of Chaos. 2.) Beidomon, who helped Mierin open the Bore in TAoL either died at the fallout of that opening, died durring the War of the Power, or died from the Madness afterwards. He was not a Forsaken, and he certainly wasn't Ishamael, whose name was Elan Morin Tedronai. <br /><br />So here is how I would apply those same ideas. I am in the middle of my 8th (9th?) reread of the series, but I haven't got to a lot of what Shadar Haran says about the pattern as I am still in FoH, and spacing for CoT in November (YAY!). So I can't verify everything I am about to say, but here goes.<br /><br />The physics of Jordan's world is the same as ours. IE Mat rolls the dice and they fall to the ground instead of floating, or getting up off the table and dancing with the tavern maids. NOTE- this is not alway's true, just in the &quot;real world&quot; when under normal conditions (ie- no One Power, True Power, or tav'eren twisting of fate). However, Jordan has applied some rules of physics to his metaphysical construct known as the Pattern. If you will apply the idea that Verin gives Egwene in TDR about the world's being parrellel to each other, and other worlds running at angles and crossgraining the real world, we begin to see what the nature of the patern and the nature of the world is.<br /><br />A feature of Wave Physics, first noticed when the electromagnetic wave definition of light came into consideration is that a series of waves can be either constuctive or destructive. Without going into too much detail, it pretty much works out that waves stacked directly on top of each other add together for a bigger wave. While those stacked opposite to each other, where the trough of one touches the crest of the other, cancel out completely. This principle can in effect be applied to most physical particles in our world, although in a much more complicated manner.<br /><br />When we look at the Pattern, we see that it is the spiritual result of an object or beings actions in the world. It is not a tangible, physical thing. It is not order or chaos. It's also not heaven, but rather a spiritual concept. The Wheel of time is pushed by the One Power, at it weaves the Age Lace from the Pattern, however is does not provide the energy of the &quot;physical&quot; world. This is also an important concept. Also, we can assume that the Pattern has &quot;space&quot;. Anotherwords, our part of the pattern is bordered by the pattern woven from the other worlds surrounding us, and the worlds crossgraining us. It is a sort of spiritual space-time, much like Einstein's concepts of our existence. Also, the only &quot;real&quot; world is the one Rand is in during the story. It is where all the waves &quot;add together&quot; as in the Wave theory. That is why the DO is imprisoned in all the worlds, because what happens in some worlds is canceled out by others as in wave theory, so is doesn't matter if Trollocs have destroyed the whole world in one version of the pattern, because in another all the Trollocs have been killed and the Blight pushed back to Shayol Ghoul. This also explains the washed out effect on the world that Rand visits, because it is a world more out of phase and thus more canceled out that the real world.<br /><br />Here is the point. After all of the above preamble, we can see the Bore as a sort of Black Hole in Pattern-time, a singularity in the pattern that is a hole into the chaos where the DO resides. The patch that Lews Therin put on the Bore is just that, a patch- planks over an abandoned well. The singularity must actually be removed to &quot;close the Bore&quot;. Also the One Power doesn't actually physically affect the users surrounding; rather, the channeller uses the power to force the weave of the pattern, the &quot;wave&quot; function to where it no longer cancels out with the wave of the physical world. In other words, things that would require the wave to be pushed much farther out of sync with the set wave that the wheel is pushing (like say sealing the Bore or raising a mountain range) requires much more of the one power, while pushing the pattern only enough to heat the air around it to a flame is rather easy. This also explains how the Bore is everywhere and nowhere. It is a singularity in Pattern time, not a physical place ie Shayol Ghoul. However a peculiar property at Shayol Ghoul allows the Bore to be felt, the Thin-ness that Demandred speaks of. Also this Thin-ness is where the DO can reach through the Bore and feel the world more effectively, which explains the Blight. <br /><br />Well, its been long, but like I said the idea of applying physics (the thinness of the pattern at the Bore meeting the thickness of the Pattern at Rand are a lot like the waves canceling in the original theory) is a great one, and I think applies really well.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-06 02:34:54
subject: <b>IMBECILES!</b>
body:
Look Fools!<br />   First, Moiraine's comment was simply that things could go very wrong in Tear. It was a pivotal moment for the Pattern because The Dragon Reborn was going to declare himself by taking Callandor. At which point some of the Forsaken were going to attack him. The battle of the Forsaken and Rand had the potential to rip the pattern. If the Forsaken won, then Shai'tan would be free and destroy the wheel and remake the world in his own image. Thus, the pattern was in jeopardy in Tear because Callandor was in Tear. The same possiblity existed in Caemyln when Rahvin fought with Rand, and in the Blight and Tarabon when Ishamael fought Rand at the end of the first two books. That is all that was meant. Remember, not EVERY line in the books contain a special meaning, you guys are reading WAY too much into this.<br /> <br />   Second, the guy with Lanfear when they opened the Bore? Yeah, hes dead. Only 13 people from the Age of Legends were still alive after three thousand years when the Bore began to break down. You know who they are. He probably died in the resulting explosion. If not then he died at another time. Unless, of course, you expect him to pop into someones head like Lews Therin, which is doubtful.<br /><br />    Third, this is one of the STUPIDEST theories I have ever heard of and I hereby declare it BUNK! For all of you who actually read through the entire theory, I pity you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 02:48:36
subject: <b>Wookies battleing Ewoks? WTF?</b>
body:
&quot;This leads to the conclusion that either the Bore moved during the Breaking, or the land moved and the Bore did not.&quot;<br /><br />There was a blacklash that destroyed the floating Sharom, it created ripples in the fabric of reality and shock waves shook the pattern.  Lanfear was not the only one to survive this, there were a few.  She was lucky to be one of the few.<br /><br />What Moraine meant by saying that the patteren can be torn from here (Tear) was that it can be torn from anywhere, not just Shayol Ghul.  Though the pattern is thiniest around Shayol Ghul.  Which can be construed as where th bore was drilled.


created: 2002-06-06 07:56:36
subject: <b>Questions regarding Rand as a chaotic point in the pattern</b>
body:
Any divergence from the norm is usually contrued as chaos, so I would agree with the statement that Rand is a chaotic point in the pattern. However, I don't know if his ta'veren acts as a salve to the thin points of chaos. Moridin and hence the DO promote chaos, which seems to be the DO's goal or rather to rip apart the order of the creator. So my question to you is if they are promoting chaos in general then why would Rand's ta'veren counteract their chaos? And if it would why have they misinterpretated it? I believe the DO told Demandred let the Lord of Chaos rule.


created: 2002-06-06 23:20:00
subject: <b>How in the...</b>
body:
How in the name of all that is holy does this get posted?  The author flat-out contradicts themself...thick, thin...who cares?!?!  50 points, woohoo!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 23:20:17
subject: <b>What gets past the moderators these days....</b>
body:
This is less a theory, and more the ramblings of someone.<br /><br />Creative, and I like some of the ideas, however, I don't see any consistancy. Cool thoughts, though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 22:35:22
subject: <b>Tsk, Tsk, Tsk...</b>
body:
I'm fed up with all these intellectual theories. You people don't have lives, do you? &quot;Rand can restore balance by merging his thick spot in the pattern to the DO's thin spot...&quot; How many hours did you spend pondering over this? I spend hours every night doing far more productive things than wondering about the placement of Shayol Ghul in comparison to the Bore, such as... watching TV, attempting to blast my eardrums out with my stereo, playing on the computer, virtually lambasting people lacking social lives such as you, etc. QUIT WITH THE INTELLIGENT THEORIES!!! Do us all a favor and post a sad, depressed theory called 'the life of one who has no life' so we can all laugh at your patheticness. Thank you, come again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 18:40:57
subject: <b>Ummmm....</b>
body:
I think you got most of it right. I don't think the One Power would be destroyed though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 18:49:10
subject: <b>As for intelligent theories...</b>
body:
While I really like intelligent theories for the most part, in this case I have to agree with the above.  This theory is too much, to the point where it makes no sense because it's entirely a house of cards with no real foundations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 14:51:24
subject: <b>that is a good catch</b>
body:
i think it is obvious that narishma has some huge destiny ahead of him.  Your theory fits well with the other narishma theories, about him being tamyrlin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 15:29:36
subject: <b>An avatar is a manifestation of God in the flesh on Earth...</b>
body:
Narasimha was the manifestation of the Supreme god vishnu (who has had nine such manifestations so far... with a tenth coming uo!)<br /><br />Also, Narasimha translates as man-lion... which is what He was, half man, half lion. <br /><br /><br />I dunno, what's Narishma going to do? Break the DO's back in a doorway?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 15:32:48
subject: <b>Avatars don't destroy the world, either.. they save it...</b>
body:
Narasimha killed Hiranya when He was summoned by Hiranya's son Prahlad who was a true devotee of Vishnu.<br /><br />Vishnu will be manifested on Earth again, this time to end it, but not as Narasimha, as Kalki, a horse riding archer (think metaphorically) who will destroy the world.<br /><br />No, I can't agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 15:56:12
subject: <b>Hey</b>
body:
How come there's no opinion from an admin at the bottom?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 17:46:01
subject: <b>Narishma in Myth/Legend</b>
body:
I think this is as good a theory as any.  There has to be some importance to Narishma, as he's the one Rand sent to retrieve Callandor, and he did so successfully in spite of Rand apparently not telling him about all the traps he had laid.<br /><br />Keep in mind, that just because there's a paralell for Narishma in Real Life (tm) mythology doesn't necessarily mean that RJ's character is going to follow exactly to the myth.<br /><br />Otherwise, Egwene would be Rand's wife, and would end up cheating on him with Galad.  (Gwenivere, Arthur, Galahad mythos) and Perrin would be Mat's son. (Odin &amp; Thor)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 18:25:53
subject: <b>A Post</b>
body:
Wow! Something posted that makes sense! Good job. Now all we need to do is find one on a better subject than myth influences. Who cares about where this stuff comes from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 21:31:52
subject: <b>Avatars DO &quot;destroy&quot; the world</b>
body:
An avatar of Vishnu is the preserver of the triad of gods he belongs to.  Be balances the creater and the destroyer.  As such, his avatar heralds the end of an age and the beginning of a new one.  So, in a way, his appearance does &quot;cause&quot; the end of the age by preserving the world so as to bring it into a new age.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-07 22:26:16
subject: <b>Let's See... Hmmm...</b>
body:
I have no real interest in mythology, so I normally just ignore these posts. But I'm all for anyone saying that my favorite Asha'man, Mr. Jahar Narishma, will save the world. I'm sick near to vomiting over all these Logain theories. LOGAIN SUCKS!!!<br /><br />Down with the False Dragons!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 16:16:05
subject: <b>Hows this?</b>
body:
How's this for an idea.  Maybe Narishma is the hand that Rand will lose?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 05:08:10
subject: <b>In response to avadakedaura</b>
body:
Your post makes more sense than the theory that you were commenting about.I think thats a great idea considering the prophecy &quot;what hand will grasp that fearful blade&quot;(or whatever it says).It makes sense as you could look at the Asha'man as Rand's hands or his tools,to direct where he wills and to do his work.Also,maybe by retrieving Callandor,Narishma has become the hand mentioned in the prophecy and the hand that Rand will also lose.So Rand losing his hand doesn't necessarily have to be a physical hand,but maybe a metaphorical hand.Your post is the kind of idea that needs to be posted,not this garbage about trying to compare characters from the books to characters from all the cultures of the world.Great work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 15:18:15
subject: <b>Tai shar, please</b>
body:
Even if you consider the theory &quot;garbage&quot;, you could say it in a decent manner. Just because somebody says something that doesn't interest YOU doesn't make it garbage. I, personally, come to this site to read exactly this kind of post. To read stuff that didn't occur to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A Lurk and proud of it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Lurks. That was what they called Fades in Tear, in tales meant for children.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 23:27:40
subject: <b>My apologies</b>
body:
OK,maybe I shouldn't have been that harsh,but it seems like every second new post is one of these ones comparing characters from the books to other mythological characters.<br />I'd rather read totally far fetched theories that have little or no evidence than this kind of stuff because at least it gets you thinking about the books and whats going on in them.Real theories can be made from them because people pick up stuff that the writer missed.If this kind of thing interests you than fair enough,but I'll stick to saying its a waste of space.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 18:44:17
subject: <b>Small correction...</b>
body:
An avatar is an incarnation of a god, not of God.  Monotheistic religions don't have avatars, or if they do, give them special names (the Judeo-Christian &quot;Messiah&quot;, for instance, which translates to &quot;King of Kings&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />As for destroying the world and re-creating it, that is a metaphorical and not literal attribute of avatars.  The point is that they change the world (a more proper translation for destroying the world is &quot;breaking&quot; the world...sound familiar?).<br /><br />Although, as I recall from Grade 10 History, isn't Vishnu the Preserver?  And don't preservers, by definition, NOT change the world?  Correct me if I'm wrong, though, I remember that there was also a Creator (Brahma, I believe) and a destroyer (Can't for the life of me remember this guy's name).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 20:37:19
subject: <b>Vishnu is a preserver</b>
body:
There is also Shiva, the destroyer, and Brahma, the creater.  Shiva destroys live, but Vishnu preserves it, even if in a new form.  Therefore though death is an end, it is also both a continuation and a beginning through reincarnation.<br /><br />That is what I meant by he &quot;ends&quot; the world; his avatars actually fight against the end of everything, but in doing so they mark the end of one age and the beginning of another.  Don't blame the messenger and all, you know?


created: 2002-06-13 18:11:36
subject: <b>Clever!! Good find.</b>
body:
Now, in <b>my</b> book of Hindu mythology, Nrisingha (lots of different spellings here)  does not know he is an incarnation of Vishnu (the preserver god, later incarnated again as Krishna) &amp; has no idea of his powers.  But then he realises who he is &amp; then comes into his powers &amp; is able to kill Hiranyakapisu.<br /><br />I do not think Hiranyakapisu = the DO, more like one of the Forsaken, and I think this could tie in with the Fenris wolf strand somehow.<br /><br />I never understand when people don't like the mythological theories.  Playing with myths is one of Jordan's biggest things in this series (along with physics which theories also seem to be hated by some), a basic understanding of where he is coming from adds a lot of richness to one's understanding of the novels.  These aren't just any old fantasy crap you know, they're clever stuff.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-13 20:17:21
subject: <b>Guenivere and Galad?</b>
body:
Mind Candy, in the Arthurian legend, Guenivere has an affair with Lancelot, not Galahad, so by your logic, she shoudn't be hooking up with Galad, but with Lan.  Since Lan is obviously Sir Lancelot of the Lake, the greatest knight of his time.  (Until Galahad came along.)  However, your point is valid.<br /><br />Hmmm, perhaps an Egwene, Lan love affair is in the making?  Interesting.  What would Nynaeve think of that?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!


created: 2002-07-06 04:22:33
subject: <b>Mind Candy &amp; Vismail</b>
body:
It is pretty clear that when RJ wrote TEOTW he was intending Rand &amp; Egwene to be a couple, ie to mirror Arthur &amp; Guenivere.  He changes this in the interests of having more plotlines.  But yeah, he does change the stories round - eg, in myth, it is Lancelot who has an affair with Elayne &amp; she dies of the broken heart.


created: 2002-10-22 19:28:45
subject: <b>devils advocate</b>
body:
just trying to play devils advocate here.. what if &quot;follow after&quot; means litterally that... he will be a follower of Rands.  I know it is really a big stretch but everyone needs a devils advocate... also... has anyone mentioned the dashiva= shiva the destroyer connection?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-26 20:35:21
subject: <b>Narasimha and Narishma Completely Dissimilar</b>
body:
Well, in all good spirit I wanted to tell you that I believe there is absolutely no shred of connection between the story of the Narasimha Avatar and the Asha'man Narishma.  <br /><br />According to your argument, &quot;An Avatar is one who comes to destroy a world and make a whole new world.&quot;<br /><br />This is not true. I can quote the Bhagavad Gita, text of the Hindus, but it is in Sanskrit and its meaning would likely be lost so I'll summarize it.  <br /><br />An Avatar is an incarnation of the Supreme that comes down whenever unrighteousness (adharma) prevails over righteousness (dharma) to correct the balance.  <br /><br />If this were to take place in Randland, it would be analogous to the Creator incarnating himself into one of the characters to defeat the Dark One and the Forsaken.  This is not remotely likely (See theory &quot;Lightfriends?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  <br /><br />~Windbiter's Finger~


created: 2003-11-23 19:25:10
subject: <b>where did u learn all this hindu mythology?</b>
body:
because first of all, narasimha was an incarnation of vishnu, a god who decided to come down to earth to save the world. this incarnation of a god is called an avatar.  if the creator decided to take on a human form for a while, the human would be an avatar of the Creator<br /><br />also, narasimha means half man half lion<br /><br />and narishma is full human


created: 2004-09-30 11:27:53
subject: <b>Hmm,,</b>
body:
Bhrama- creator<br />Visnu- Protector of the good<br />Shiva- Destoyer of evil.<br /> <br />     As people already mentioned Narasimha was half man and half lion. Vishnu kills Hiranya at the prayer of his righteous son Prahalada.<br />       Since Shiva is the destroyer of evil I don't see any connection between him and Dashiva.<br />         Just because a name is similar, it doesen't mean te people are connected<br />


created: 2005-02-18 07:43:35
subject: <b>Almost all the details are correct.........</b>
body:
Well Renato my friend, You must be commended for getting almost all the details right.Although the name of the demon is HiranyaKashipu(HK).<br /> <br />The god's name is NaraSimha(Nara -man, Simha-lion). The god is said to have the head of a lion and the body of a man.<br />The story goes like this....<br /><br />HK was a very powerful demon who was terrorising the earth.<br />He had obtained the following boons from the lord Brahma(the creator) <br />1.he will not be killed by a man nor a beast, <br />2.neither under a roof nor in the open, <br />3.neither in the morning nor at night.<br />4.neither through the door nor a window(the killer's approach).<br />  He thought he had covered all the possibilities of getting killed. But he became unbearable to the people of the earth and when they asked the god Vishnu(the protector), vishnu thought of a devious plan to kill him. <br />  HK's son Prahlada was a great devotee of lord Vishnu.Once when HK questioned him as to whether the lord was in the pillars as well, the pillar burst open and out came lord NaraSimha, half-man half-beast, out of a pillar in the evening(when the sun is setting but it is not yet night),took HK onto the threshold and slew him there.<br /><br />I am not sure about Jahar Narishma's name and the actual story in the Hindu mythology or of his actual role in the Tarmon Gaidon.But I am happy that somebody has taken pains to research and publish their views. <br />well done Renato.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signing off in light, <br />Ajit.<br /><br />&quot;If reasons were as plenty as blueberries, I would give none on compulsion&quot;. <br />-Shakespeare.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 14:05:14
subject: <b>I dont think so</b>
body:
I don't think that Rand even knows that Logain is at the Black Tower.  I am pretty sure that Rand has not gone near the Black Tower in a long while (remember his encounter with Torval in PoD).  Taim probably gave Logain rank because of his ability and his fame.  Logain commanded armies and worked with the Power long enough for him to be a full Asha'man.  The fact that he says no Aes Sedai killed by the order of the Dragon Reborn, is simply explained by Rand's order to Taim that no Aes Sedai will be killed.


created: 2002-06-07 14:33:44
subject: <b>Taim cannot do anything he wants</b>
body:
He is still kept in check by the threat of Rand finding out about some of the things he has done.  Egwene was the one who helped free Logain, and Taim probably knew of the Aes Sedai plot to free Logain.  Thus, he might also have feared that word of Logain's release had spread to Rand.  <br /><br />Rand is, afterall, still very dangerous to Taim, and he might have been very angry at Taim 'bumping off' Logain. Thus, that option did not exist to Taim. <br /><br />Second, Taim had to promote Logain.  Logain is an infamous name that everyone knows, and it just would not fit to put him in the soldier rank.  It would kind of be like putting Bruce Lee in a white belt.  It just wouldn't work.<br /><br />Plus, Logain is still a threat to Taim.  Afterall, the 2 may be very equal in strenght and skill.  Taim had to be very careful in maneuvering Logain, because anything he cause a split in the white tower.<br /><br />Basically, Logain is a walking time bomb to Taim.  Taim can't 'off' Logain, and he can't keep him at the novice level.  Taim's options, are to promote Logain, and try to control his power and influence, or to start laying plans to bring Logain to the dark side. <br /><br />Of course, the down side to this, is that Taim's problem with Log will continue to grow like a fester.  Eventually, I think Taim will realize he will need to put an end to this and arrange an accident for Logain (a carefully planned accident).  I think what will happen is that the Aes Sedai may discover some of the Taim's plans for Logain, and not wanting to have the bond severed, they will alert Logain.<br /><br />Logain will then launch his counteroffensive.<br /><br />So, as you see, there are several different options.  It's possible that Rand promoted Logain, but we haven't seen anything like that from any of the PoV's. Thus, I think some of the options I just listed are more likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 14:52:58
subject: <b>taim is thinking</b>
body:
i agree with matrimony a little bit. rand hasnt been back to the black tower in some time. so how could he know anything about logain.  <br /><br />i think taim really didnt have a choice in promoting logain. the ashaman not under taim would start to wonder. taim doesnt need suspicion about him. what better way to keep an eye on someone that to put them in a high profile position. plus if something were to happen to logain while protecting the BT he couldn't be blamed for it.  <br /><br />about the chaos theory: who would give taim that kind of order   that loves this kind of stuff. uh maybe demandred giving taim that order. he probably doesn't like the fact that logain a powerful male channler has showed up not stilled like the world thaught.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 17:08:37
subject: <b>......</b>
body:
Wasn't this an already known thing? It would have been obvious that Rand made Logain an Ash'man (sp?). I thought I recalled him doing so, but maybe that was to the other guys he took as his students. But at any rate it was fairly obvious that Rand gave teh promotion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 17:32:34
subject: <b>Just in case you haven't read the rest of the story...</b>
body:
Rand hasn't been to the black tower since before Dumai's Wells.  If he had he would have figured out that his own (Asha'man's?  Asha'men?) were on the traitor list.  It also wouldn't really have benfited him to go under cover to Andor only to show up at the black tower with no disguise.<br /><br />Really.  Don't you think the meeting between Logain &amp; Rand would have been slightly important to the plot?  I would be <i>really</i> disappointed if it wasn't even mentioned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 18:32:58
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Skizore! Lauriana put the icing on the cake with the schism proposal. However, I would like to add that the only reason that Taim is in charge is because he was the only one available for the job. He was the only male channeler left who Rand could ever remotely trust. Now that Logain appears Taim cant possibly send him to work in the fields unless Rand is kept unawares. When/If Rand found out Taim would probably be replaced by Logain. Therefore Taim must give Logain a high position- they have the same credencials for the job. Therefore it seems Taim is following the saying keep your friends close but your enemies closer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 21:01:28
subject: <b>Defensive Move.</b>
body:
In reality Taim is too smart by half! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />He cannot avoid giving the sword and the dragon to someone as strong and experienced as Logain, but he thought he'd use that to his advantage.  Taim is obviously trying to become the sole leader of the Black Tower and is surrounding himself with those he can trust.<br /><br />He cannot trust Logain whom he has not taught and has never viewed him as a leader, but maybe an equal at best.  First, he give Logain &quot;command&quot; of the boys from the Two Rivers for two reasons.  One, the boys from the Two Rivers may hold more allegance to Rand than to Taim, and he would not want any plans or seemingly bad actions to inadvertantly slip out when Rand was next present.  Two, Rand may hold it against whomever is in command of the Two Rivers boys if there should be any accidents (Logain commented on as much).  <br /><br />Secondly, defending the Black Tower from any <i>Aes Sedai</i> may be relatively safe, but should something unforseen happen to those Taim does not completely trust to side with him (especially Logain), I do not believe that Taim would be overly upset over the loss of those individuals.  Additionally this keeps Logain occupied elsewhere and provides greater control of the Black Tower to Taim<br /><br />However, by Taim while trying to gain everything he will end up losing it all!  He has inadvertantly created a rival faction (loyal to Rand) who will, I believe, chase him (and his darkfriend buddy) off!  Or maybe be chased off. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-07 21:05:07
subject: <b>The _only_ possibility?</b>
body:
Come on...as has been mentioned, Rand hasn't been there.  There are no facts that would show Rand even knows Logain is there.  The reason why Logain has a ton of respect and authority among Asha'men?  He's arguably as powerful as any male channeler alive, short of Rand and the Foresaken.<br /><br />I think I'm going to start submitting either (a) really obvious theories that have been mentioned previously; (b) really ridiculous theories in which I contradict myself; or (c) really ridiculous theories in which I base everything on a tiny fact, with loads of speculation...<br /><br />Points, baby!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 22:20:49
subject: <b>I Seriously Doubt It</b>
body:
Rand doesn't even know that Logain is alive, does he? I just finsihed re-reading the series, and I don't recall Egwene or anyone else mentioning to him that Logain is even alive, let alone that Nynaeave Healed him. So, if Rand doesn't know that Logain is alive, let alone un-gentled and enrolled in the Black Tower, how could he promote him to the position of Asha'man. Besides, Taim can't keep someone as strong as Logain in the position of Soldier or Dedicated. He's keeping Logain out of the way with little meaningless tasks (to Taim, anyway) such as dealing with the Tower invaders and the Two River's men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 23:43:24
subject: <b>Umm...riiiight</b>
body:
I'm sure Rand knows that Logain is alive and probably at the Black Tower. I somehow doubt that he would not know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 23:46:59
subject: <b>Can anyone explain this?</b>
body:
Not that this is new, but I'm a little confused here.<br /><br />When Rand met Taim, he had Taim seize the Source so Rand could see how strong he was in the Power.  I seem to remember the statment that it was very close to Rand's own ability, unaided... but that Rand didn't feel any sense of strain from Taim so he suspected that Taim could have been holding back.<br /><br />But Logain said in LoC that he &quot;once saw a man who will cause more trouble than I ever did. ... He was far away, but I saw a... glow, and I knew he'd shake the world.&quot;  (referring to Rand)<br /><br />If Taim is near Rand in the Power, does that statement mean that Logain is not as strong in the Power as Taim?  Or did Nynaeve's healing of Logain make him stronger than he was before?  Or can Logain 'see' Ta'veren?  Or have I missed something?<br /><br />Taim promoted Logain, I belive, but only because he had to.  The man's reputation preceded him.  I like the idea that it may be part of Taim's 'orders' to sow discontent in the BT and rival factions would certainly do that well enough.  I'm still wondering though, if Dashiva used Compulsion on Taim.  Not that Taim was a nice person at the best of times but he seems to have become a Grade A Son of a Female Dog.  Perhaps Fain is now advising Taim?  *shrug*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 00:00:09
subject: <b>Of course Rand doesn't know!</b>
body:
Contrary to what Deathbone1 just wrote, Rand obviously doesn't know.  Since nobody in this story feels the need to share any information, unless it is literally pulled out of they're teeth, it is <b>NOT</b> known.<br /><br />&lt;Rant on&gt;<br /><br />Heck instead of knowing that Mat has been captured by the Seanchan, Nynaeve let Rand believe that he is with Egwene!  And neither Elayne nor Aviendha bothered to correct this misconception.  Never mind that the fate of the entire fabric of the universe (i.e. pattern) may very well depend on it.<br /><br />And Egwene wouldn't have bothered to pass on such vital information, like the arrival of Logain, to Elayne during they're meeting in the dream world.  Nope don't even tell those whom you trust implicitly with any information.<br /><br />Min doesn't bother to tell Rand that she spent weeks with the stilled Amyrlin and Keeper with Logain.  Nor that she had a vision about Moiraine.  Do you suppose that if Rand knew all of her visions come true and that she had an unfulfilled one about Moiraine, he might put 2 +2 together and realize that she just might not be dead?<br /><br />&lt;Rant off&gt;<br /><br />Suffice it to say that Rand does not even know that Logain is still alive.  As far as he knows Logain is gentled and dead.<br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-08 00:20:10
subject: <b>Contradiction to Rnad's knowledge that Narishma and co.are considered traitors</b>
body:
Taim surrounds himself with those he trusts, and appoints those he trusts.  That much is well known.  Taim can choose what he wants to reveal to Rand.  Those that follow Taim are subservient to him.  If Taim don't feel like telling Rand some of the latest additions to the Tower's hit list, and an Ashaman, or Dedicated, or whatever was present, that person would hold his tongue, and only tell Rand about those wanted traitors if given permission from Taim.  So the fact the Rand does not know that Narishma, and the others are wanted, and branded traitors, or at least fear they are, would likely be a result of the fact that Taim and his entourage are consorting together, and under Taim's guidance, choose not to reveal these things to Rand.  <br /><br />Remember, every time Rand has had dealings with the tower, it has been through Taim.  He would not find out anything about the tower if not for Taim, who has total control of what facts he tells Rand.<br /><br />Therefore, the fact that Rand did not know that those Ashaman with him may be traitors, does not have to be attributed to an absence from the Tower, but rather that Taim is selective in the information he passes onto Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 00:51:59
subject: <b>close but no cigar</b>
body:
First well done, but the fact that no Aes Sedai were harmed is not surprising because Rand had already forbid Taim or any other Asha'man from harming ant Aes Sedai and the apperance is given that orders from the Dragon reborn are posted on a message board. the part in Winters Heart shows that the renagaded names were posted. so it is likly thata general to not harm any Aes Sedai was posted.<br /><br />second although it is clear that Taim hates Logain his position within the Black Tower as a Ashs'man should not come as a surprise. because after Rand he is possibly the most well known fauls Dragon in 6the world, so he turns up at the Black tower and claims to be Logain, some people recognise him, and then some more people who are probaly sick of Taim dominating everything demand that he be given the rank of Asha'man, this puts Taim in a strange position because although Logain may be a threat to him Logains reputation makes him to big to kill outright.<br /><br />this theory does have hole in it but it does provide some answers


created: 2002-06-08 01:13:23
subject: <b>ARGH</b>
body:
Ok first off i seem to remember distinctly that Rand did infact meet logain. I think it was in LOC or COS I cant remember. Rand told him to go see Taim and work with him. <br />Second in WH Logains thought hints at the heriarchy at the black tower. Logain has been promoted by orders of Rand. Taim has then set logain to be incharge of the newbies, the soldiers and dedicated while he(taim) surrounds himself with the ashamen. <br />I think its going to be a showdown between logain and taim. they are both of equal strength or nearly, and they have power over two fractions. Logains young and inexperienced but uncorrupted followers and taims experienced less in numbers but corrupted followers. Its the typical showdown and it will happend. The aes sedai will be the wild card though, and i have a feeling that they will be the key to logains victory. <br />Just my two cents


created: 2002-06-08 02:56:29
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
maybe Logain's Aes Sedai will allow Logain's dedicated and soldiers to link in big circles and out channel Taim's asha'man.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Caraman Gaiden<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-08 05:49:53
subject: <b>logain and rand</b>
body:
I just fininshed re-reading those books and there is no meeting between logain and rand. I kind of like this theory though. I have a slight twist to put on it. I don't think that jordan would have had rand promote Logain without letting us know is some POV. I also don't really see Taim Promoting him, but that I guess is possible. What I think may have happened is that Logain being the smart guy that he is figured out some stuff about how the black tower works and TOLD Taim that Rand had Sent him as a full Asha'man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">taintedman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> king of my own little universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> flamer of stupid posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 05:53:52
subject: <b>Logain's Promotion</b>
body:
With Logain's reputation Taim would have had no choice but to raise him as Ashaman.  It would have caused comment otherwise and Taim cannot guarantee that Rand doesn't have his own spies in the Black Tower.  The same goes for having him killed.  I think he set him in charge of defending the Black Tower in the hopes he may be killed that way.  I don't think Rand knows he has been healed again, let alone that he is at the Black Tower.  It actually wouldn't suprise me if neither Nynaeve nor Damer Flinn have realised that they both can heal stilling and can iron out the strength problem.  This series really is an epic in a lack of communication.


created: 2002-06-08 15:05:51
subject: <b>Rand did not send Logain</b>
body:
Rand has never personally met Logain.  I haven't read the specific book in a while, but in the chapter where Logain is released by Egwene, I think she tells him to go to the Tower, or at least thinks he will end up there.  Some of you think that Rand made that suggestion, but it was Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 02:08:17
subject: <b>HTH?????</b>
body:
How the Hell did some one get the idea that Logain has more exp in the OP then rand? First he's been around longer then rand but total UNSTILLED/CHANNELIMNG time would have to be less then rand.<br /><br />second Rand got a crash course in channeling lasting a few weeks to 2 months from one of the forsaken so that'd make up for Logain som how having more time channeling


created: 2002-06-09 11:23:38
subject: <b>People are forgetting something</b>
body:
Everyone seems to be conentrating on the possibility of Rand knowing Logain is alive based on whether <br />or not the two have met in person lately. But couldn't it be that Rand knows about Logain because he saw it in<br />the ter'angreal in Tear? RJ hasn't given us any overt hints regarding what Rand heard, maybe Logain was one of<br />them<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 16:41:26
subject: <b>Re-People are Forgetting Something</b>
body:
WtH?!!! What makes you think that Rand saw THAT of all things in the ter'angreal. If he knew that, don't you think he'd be spending more time around the Black Tower. Might as well say that he saw Taim betraying him in the ter'angreal. If he had seen that, Taim would be dead by now. If he'd seen Logain at the Black Tower, don't you think he'd have met with the former False Dragon by now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 18:32:01
subject: <b>to mind candy</b>
body:
Yes Logain can see Ta'veren. That is one of his talents. Men don't see the halo only women do. Notice how the description is almost identical to Suianne's. As for the theory. It is possible that Min has in fact mentioned that logain is free and alive. I always believed that Logain would become Rand's spy in the black tower, whether he has met Rand yet or not I feel it is almost certain that he will soon if he hasn't. <br /><br />&quot;Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I would rather be feared then loved&quot;


created: 2002-06-10 10:17:57
subject: <b>Another View</b>
body:
While I think most of this theory is just speculation; we've had no indication that Rand has met Logain (yet no direct indication that he has not), we CAN make a pretty strong guess that Min has told Rand of her viewing of Logain -- and he trusts her. <br /><br />Rand did not have any negative reaction to Logain in the time he saw him early in the series in Caemlyn.  Of course, the voice in his head hadn't manifested by then, I believe (not precisely sure), or if it did, with great infrequency.  I believe Rand's general reaction was, if anything, admiring of Logain and how he was able to seem regal amidst the people who hated him.<br /><br />Given input from Min, his non-negative personal reaction; and given the instant hatred of Taim (compounded with every meeting)...I would say that Rand does NOT view Logain in the same way he views Taim. <br /><br />As for whether Taim would or would not put Logain in a position of power within his own heirarchy, keep in mind that Rand did just that with Taim, even though he was never considered anything but an enemy.  There is direct precedent for that that involves Taim.


created: 2002-06-10 15:52:37
subject: <b>another analogy</b>
body:
Elayne promoted Hanlon even when she didn't trust him, and was concerned about spies in the palace.  She put him in that position because he would be watched more closely by all of Elayne's female guard.  In a way, Hanlon's promotion was not completely a reward.<br /><br />The same may apply to Taim promoting Logain (I don't think anyone else promoted Logain).  Taim promoted Logain to keep a closer watch on him, and in a way, to restrict his power, not to enhance it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 18:21:42
subject: <b>I think Taim would be happy to promote Logain</b>
body:
Two main reason's Taim would be happy to promote Logain.<br /><br />1.  By promoting Logain, Taim states clearly who the leader of the BT is.  Taim is the M'Hael.  Logain by accepting the promotion is accepting being less than the M'Hael.  Remember that is Taim's main problem with Rand.  Taim wanted to be equal to Rand. (Taim doesn't wear the pins Rand gave him for instance and wears dragons on his sleeves in imitation of Rand.)<br /><br />2.  Taim has an obvious need to 'be like Rand'.  (I believe his insanity is that he believes that he is the dragon despite the evidence.)  Rand has under him a False dragon.  It is therefore natural that Taim should have Logain under him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 22:11:04
subject: <b>Taim's motives...</b>
body:
Since when is Taim insane?  I've never seen any indication of him being insane.  Sure, he's jealous of Rand and, from his first meeting with Rand in Caemlyn, we know that he once thought he might be the DR.  I just can't see how it can be argued that he still thinks he's the DR - there isn't anything supporting it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 13:03:17
subject: <b>It might be somewhat of a stretch to say that Taim still thinks in some way he is the dragon</b>
body:
In responce to the statement that there is no evidence Taim is insane and still thinks he is the DR on some level.<br /><br />I don't have any strong evidence that this is the case. It is a self-consistent model that the books don't refute, though.  This model is based on a number interesting pieces of information.<br /><br />The most curious fact about Taim is that he wears Rand's dragons on his arms.  Why?  That fact alone virtually eliminates the possibility that he is Demandred.  Why would Demandred wear the symbol of someone he hates with a passion.  It is fairly consistent with the supposed plot by the BA (tSR) to turn Taim and have him declare himself as Rand al'Thor.  Given the BA oath not to reveal any BA secrets that plot is somewhat in doubt, though.<br /><br />What if Taim as a False Dragon was sincere in his belief that he was the dragon.  (Incidentally that might explain his understanding of the OT.  A Dragon with time to plan might learn the OT in order to better understand the prophesies of the dragon.)   The fact that it was prooven beyond a doubt that he wasn't the DR would be a crushing blow.  This would explain the obvious conflict between Taim and himself when he first meets Rand.  <br /><br />In this model Taim is (was) basically a good guy that is hounded by DF, BA, and Forsaken.  He fights a good fight but succombs to the pressure and to the Taint.  One of the symptoms of this fight is that he mimics Rand and eventually grows to wanting him dead.<br /><br />IMHO, thinking about Taim in this way explains a lot more of his behavior and opens up a lot more plot possibilities than DF Taim or Taimendred.  Taim may even reach a point of possible redemption.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 14:14:09
subject: <b>taim and redemption</b>
body:
I don't know about all this about Taim being insane, but I do have one thought:  Taim was turned.  There is some very interesting quotes in the prophecies of Dragon book.  The interesting thing is, RJ actually endorsed these books and even wrote an intro in the RPG.  Please note that the context of the books says that Taim was almost turned, but that he escaped before it was complete.<br /><br />Here are a few interesting quotes from Prophecies of the Dragon:<br /><br />&quot;Taim is held and shielded by the Black sisters in the large tent. The Black sisters use their time with Taim to break him to the will of the Dark One through mental and physical torture. &quot; - p.93<br /><br /><br />&quot;The Darkfriend plot becomes clear: the Black Ajah sisters intend to kidnap Taim, brainwash and control him, and set him loose on the world to commit atrocities in the name of Rand al'Thor. . . In the course of events Taim escapes, free to eventually meet Rand al'Thor and found the Black Tower.&quot; - p.6<br /><br /><b> Important Note:  Taim was not turned.  He escaped before the plot was completed. </b><br /><br />However, if this info is true, there are several interesting theories we can draw from it.  If Taim was actually hunted by the BA, it strongly means that he may not have been a DF.  If Taim was not a DF, then how did he become a DF?  It definitely means Taim is not Demandred.<br /><br />Taim might have been caught and turned at another time and turned.  If it was tried once, it might have been tried again.  Obviously, there was a nice gap of time between TGH and LoC for Taim to have been captured.<br /><br />The interesting thing is that some of the Aes Sedai involved could be quite suprising.  For example, didn't Cadsuane have some kind of involvement with capturing Taim?<br /><br />I think we will see some big relevations with Taim and his past very soon.  These quotes certainly show why he hates AS so much.<br /><br />As for Rand, Taim may truely be envious.  If Taim was turned, and Rand wasn't, there is obvious motive for Taim to hate Rand.  It could be the kind of envious hatred, where you hate someone but you also want to be them.  <br /><br />Perhaps Taim is jealous that he had to go through his fate and suffering, while the Dragon caught to get all the glory and also was also not turned to the dark.  Maybe this is why Taim wears dragons on his coat-sleeves.  <br /><br />I really do like the idea of redemption, however, and I hope we get a better idea of who Taim is before he is burned out of the story-line.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 16:28:17
subject: <b>The rule of Law</b>
body:
Taim has been appointed head of the BT.  But he has not been given complete authority.  He still needs to follow rules even (or especially) if they are his own.<br />The men in the BT work hard because they believe it is the key to advancement.  Therefore there must be some known criteria for advancement that they can work to.  Thus they toil under the sun. So when Logan shows up and meets the requirements Taim is forced to promote him.  If Taim does not promote Logan the worker bees would feel betrayed and could stop working hard.<br />When Taim feels his position is secure with out the backing of the Dragon he will throw off any pretense of following rules.  Then motivation will come from the tip of the sword.<br />In the meantime Taim is too arrogant to believe that anyone would follow anyone other then himself.  He would view Logans' choice to live out of the Palace as an indication that Logan had chosen not to compete with Him.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Of course no one actually asked me.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-13 13:21:51
subject: <b>Matrimony Cauthon</b>
body:
I don't have Prophecies of the Dragon<br /><br />I think we pretty much agree.  I don't have Prophecies of the Dragon but I have heard some of what you are saying.  <br /><br />I wouldn't be suprised if Taim's actions can be explained as a mixture of his experience with the BA and the taint.  How and why he escaped is an important consideration though.  The main reason for this is that he says that he doesn't believe he is the Dragon, yet he tries to imitate the dragon (in particular with the sleeves).<br /><br />A simple PoV from Taim can clear up a lot.  It seems though that RJ wants to be mysterious with Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 15:32:45
subject: <b>The Loose Tower</b>
body:
(The Shadow has returned to Wotmania...)<br /><br />Rand has basically let the Asha'man (and for all those wondering, I'm of the opinion that that's both plural and singular, like Jedi) get away from him.  The Black Tower's a loose cannon.  The main reason, of course, is that Rand doesn't like being around male channelers -- he can only trust the three he has with him. <br /><br />Can he trust Logain? I'm not sure. Logain seems to be the main hope of saving some of the Asha'man and rebuilding the Black Tower after it's been &quot;rent in fire and blood,&quot; but what evidence is there that he is at all loyal to Rand? He might realize that only sticking with Rand will keep him alive -- the Red Ajah, now that Stilling can be healed, will probably start killing its captives -- but that's speculative, too. The only thing we know for certain is that Logain has built his own faction.  It might be entirely for his own ends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 18:40:46
subject: <b>Defense of BT</b>
body:
I wanted to add to all those posts here that I doubt Taim regards defending the Black Tower against aes sedai such an important job. I think he really disdains having to capture those women he despises, instead of dealing with them with brutal force. I think he kind of shoved the job on Logain figuring that if someone has to waste his time by capturing them it might as well be Logain who he dislikes anyway.


created: 2002-07-09 23:47:55
subject: <b>what perrin smelled</b>
body:
firstly i dont think rand and logain met. it will be cool when they do. on the theory of taim being insane it is interesting to note what perrin smells when taim and rand are together. Both have scents that change too fast. hate to determination and stuff like that. this can be explained by lews therin being in rands head and maybe someone dead being in taims. just a thought.....<br /><br />oh yeah about logain being more experienced in channeling somewhere (i cant remember what book) logain says hed been channeling for years before he declared himself the dragon


created: 2003-03-27 02:51:24
subject: <b>Jordan and Plot Gaps!</b>
body:
A  few  people  have  mentioned  that  Rand  has  not  been  to  the  Black  Tower  since  Book  6.  Isn't  this  a  tiny  bit  strange.  I  assume  Jordan  is  doing  this  on  purpose.  In  reality  somone  in  Rands  position  would  regulary  go  to  the  Black  tower  no  matter  what  his  other  responsibilts  where  (Seanchan  etc), espically  with  somone  like  Taim  in  charge.<br /><br />It  is  obvious  then  that  this  is  a  plot  contrivance  by  Jordan  to  prevent  the  character  Rand  being  anywhere  near  the  forthcoming  centre  of  rebellion.


created: 2002-06-13 12:01:51
subject: <b>I doubt it.</b>
body:
I think the prophecies are pretty much a given. We've been reading them, and seeing them fulfilled, for most of the series. Good story writing simply does not turn around so many things - OK, setting up that Warders can only be male, and then making a female warder, is allowed, but as an author you can't overturn one of the fundamental principals on which the story is based. It would be like saying &quot;Actually readers, Logain is the Dragon Reborn: that's what his crown of glory means in Min's viewing. The whole Rand thing was just a red herring to mislead you, in the same way as all the indication that Taim might be Demandred. Ha ha, had you all fooled there!&quot; It's simply unthinkable. The prophecies will all be fulfilled, or else RJ will lose all respectability as an author of fantasy writing.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 12:15:48
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
This would explain moraine's comment about all prophisies have a way of being fulfilled. However I have to dissagre in general, althouhg I wouldn't be suprised if the DO slipped some of his stuff in it. And yes, that lie thing is a fact, you hide your lies in truth and they are even harder to get at.


created: 2002-06-13 12:28:29
subject: <b>You're forgetting the Wheel</b>
body:
The prophecies exist every time the Wheel goes around.  Thus, they must be written either by someone who exists with every turn, or by the Creator or the DO.  This kind of suggests that the Dragon himself writes the prophecies in the Fourth age, or maybe even the Seventh, and the whole story goes around and around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 12:41:30
subject: <b>&quot;cleansing the taint&quot; in the prophecies?</b>
body:
I don't have my books with me so I don't have a page number, but I do remember this part... &quot;He will heal the wounds of madness and the cutting of hope.&quot;  It's part of the prophecies.  When I read it, I took it to mean Rand would cleanse Saidin...and many books later, he did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...but that's just my opinion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Now resuming lurk mode<br /><br />Brown Ajah<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Hmmm...fascinating<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> (scritch, scri, scritch)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 13:30:56
subject: <b>Jame is right</b>
body:
In TGH, when Moiraine is talking about some of the prophecies to Egwene and Nynaeve, she mentions that he will cut the chains of madness, and also that he would bind the Nine Moons to serve him, and a few other things. I also assumed, what with the clues we've been given, that this meant Rand would heal the Taint. I just thought it wouldn't be done until Tarmon Gaidon, but in that I was wrong.<br /><br />Nicely thought out theory, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It's nice to see something both original and interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 15:12:55
subject: <b>Very ineteresting.</b>
body:
I think this is very interesting, considering Ishamael went and created the Seanchan by manipulating Artur Hawkwing.  He knew that they would return and when hence the creation of 2 dooms. One fulfilled and one yet to come.  I think this theory has alot of merit.  Maybe the DO didn't directly influence the whole Cycle but just suplanted a few things here and there to tryto make Rand easier to control or to make people resist him more, ie the 'kneeling before the Crystal Throne'.


created: 2002-06-13 15:21:12
subject: <b>Truth shrouded in mystery...</b>
body:
As with any prophecy the definition of, or the fulfillment of the prophecy may not be what everyone immediately suspects.  For instance, Elaida Fortells stuff all the time, but we know that her interpretations of her foretellings are not necessarily correct.  So, in regards to this theory, I don't think that the DO wrote the prophecies of the Dragon.  I do, however, think that the prophecies were written in such a way that their fulfillment would be unmistakable, and cannot be manipulated to fit an individuals gain. The prophecies must and will be fulfilled in due time...correctly.  They cannot be controlled nor ignored, and that is why they are sometimes so confusing to those who are reading them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 18:18:56
subject: <b>Memory, Sorrow and Thorn</b>
body:
What your suggesting is very close to Tad Williams above series.  I certainly Jordan has a more original ending in mind.  It's occured to me in the past but I've always chalked it up to a nightmare.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taverenchris <br />Not-So Newly Bionic Resident of the Westlands <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Kind-Of Old Man River <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Random Wanderer Through the Message Board <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 19:31:57
subject: <b>Cool idea, but a disagree</b>
body:
I think that the origin of prophecy comes from a force that is neither the creator nor the DO. prophecy comes from the wheel. The creator will take no active role, the DO would if he could. There are dark and light prophecies. My feeling is that the wheel exerts balance through prophecy. Is this age the balance is distorted. Prophecy is a talent like fortelling. Ishy may believe that the DO is the source of the prophecies but I don't think this is the case. Ishy definitely tries to convince Rand that prophecy comes from the DO: all that talk about his mother being a mare bred for one purpose and his father the stallion, allowing word to escape, being the source of Laman's sin etc... but the truth is something else. Prophecy is a facet of the wheel.<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda<br /><br />I would rather be feared then loved


created: 2002-06-13 21:16:49
subject: <b>I DISAGREE!</b>
body:
Healing the taint was mentioned in the prophecies.  Moiraine mentions it.  She says (I believe in tGH or tDR) that the drawing of Callandor was not given any special importance in the Prophecies.  She said that other events in the prophecies were given equal weight.  (Or maybe Siuan says this to the girls in tDR.  I might be connecting two different examples accidently.)  Sorry, I don't have my books with me, but my memory is usually pretty good about these things.  She asks how the nine moons have been bound to him, what wounds of madness and cutting of hope has he healed, and how has he cut his people with the sword of peace, and slain them with the leaf.  These were all given equal importance in the prophecies. <br />And considering how he has broken the Aiel, and cleansed Saiden, I do not see how the prophecies could have been manipulated by the DO.  In fact, the entire idea appalls me.  I don't mean to insult your theory when I say this, I just mean that if that turned out to be the case, that the prophecies, the guiding force of this series could actually have been a pile of horse manure for its relevence, I would be very upset and disappointed.  It would destroy all of RJ's credibility.<br />A much more likely possibility to consider is that ther are two sets of prophecies, one Light and one Dark, and that their goals are very similar.  The fact is that having Hawkwing send his armies across the Aryth ocean was probably the fulfillment of a Dark Prophecy, just as starting the Trolloc Wars was.  We've already seen evidence of Dark Prophecy in tGH, and as far as we can see, it was fulfilled.  Heck, the writings on the dungeon implied that Luc traveling to the Blight was as much a victory for the shadow as the fall of Malkieri.  It is my personal belief that in the end the Prophecies of the Dragon and the DO will be fulfilled, leaving only a final confrontation between Rand and the DO.<br />On a final note, even Rand expresses similar thought in the beginning of the LoC when Taim tells him you are the DR, destined to destroy the DO, and Rand thinks that he believes that prophecy just sets the conditions of the battle, not the outcome.  (Sorry, I don't have my books with me so I can't quote it directly.  Feel free to post the correct quotes, or flame me if I'm wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  )<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!!


created: 2002-06-13 22:18:24
subject: <b>BLAH TO YOU ALL</b>
body:
I thought it was obvious, the Prophecies were written by Aes sedai with the foretelling, sometime around the war of Power. Whn rand is in rhuidean, he sees (well, his ancestor sees), a couple of Aes sedai, with the dragon banne + callandor, and one of them asks another about EXACTLY when something would happen, (they didn't give specifics), and the Aes sedai said something about not knowing exactly, and the other Aes sedai got all grumpy over it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 01:44:43
subject: <b>UUUhhhhhhhhhhh...............</b>
body:
What?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 04:00:16
subject: <b>Mussels is right...</b>
body:
...TSR, The Dedicated (p427 softcover); &quot;When he saw what was on the table...A crystal sword...held down by the Dragon banner[.]...&quot;What good is your Fortelling,&quot; Oselle was almost shouting, &quot;if you cannot tell us when?&quot;...&quot;The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!&quot;


created: 2002-06-14 12:15:08
subject: <b>They're probably right...</b>
body:
...wismail and mussels gave us most of the information we need to argue against this theory.<br /><br />The Prophecies of the Dragon were are actual Foretellings for the Light aligned Aes Sedai during the breaking, that were put <br />down in written form. Then the light Aes Sedai attempted to set as many pieces in place as they could to aid they're prophecis. <br />(I.E The Stone &amp; Callandor, The Eye of the World &amp; The Dragon Banner &amp; The Greenman, Rhuidean &amp; The Glass Ter'angreal and I'm <br />sure there will be others.) At the same time the Dark Aes Sedai with the Foretelling were creating the Dark Prophecies (the <br />Forsaken were only the thirteen STRONGEST) and trying to aid in their fulfillment.<br /><br />I feel that the Creator and the DO have some influence over the Prophecies and Ishy explained as much to LTT in the prologe<br />of TEotW. He explained about the eternal war between good and evil, light and dark, and how the Creator and the DO use <br />surrogates to fight their battles. How he and LTT have for endlessly as enemies and allies alike, and how both light and dark<br />have one over the ages. That the Dragon at times was the DO's champion and other times his hated enemy. Now remember that<br />Ishy was one of the greatest, if not the greatest philosophers of the AOL. So, if anyone would know he should. Then agian he<br />could have just been messing with LTT's mind just after curing his insanity with the True Power.<br /><br />Also, both prophecies are constantly getting assistance. I.E. Gitara Moroso, the sister who sent Tigraine (Rand's and Galad's<br />mother) to the Aeil to become a Maidan of the Spear and give birth to Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, and sent Morraine <br />and Suian searching for Rand. And as stated earlier Ishy. I'm sure there were more over the centuries.<br /><br />As to Harid Fel, well he could well have discovered some earth shattering news or revalation. He was one of the great <br />philosiphers of the current age. Or it could simply be that Morodin (Ishy) doesn't want anyone messing with his turf.<br />Ishy was never one to share well.<br /><br />Thanks for reading my ramblings.<br /><br />Wolfbrother<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 12:31:33
subject: <b>One costly mistake!</b>
body:
The author of this theory never had a chance.  Why?  His theory is based on the mad ramblings of Vashti = zero substance.<br /><br /> It looks to me like you put thought into this.  Sorry for hacking on you!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 14:05:02
subject: <b>poor vashti</b>
body:
I got you (Vashti) some respect for hanging around here with all the flack you take. <br /><br />I actually liked your last theory, and even many of your blackboard posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 15:58:08
subject: <b>Hey, It's no sweat</b>
body:
I'm flattered that my theory inspired another.  I don't necessarily agree with it, but it lies in the line of things I like to do with the series -- speculate on what's to come, not necessarily what's already passed.  That's not a better way; it's just my preferred interest. <br /><br />As for flak...well, I obviously rent a fair amount of space inside some people's heads.  Make of that what you will. I try to leave insults out of my posts (sometimes I get drawn into trading them, but I'm working on that).  Other people evidently aren't interested in that.  I dismiss it as more the need to insult someone, anyone, rather than adding substantive content.  <br /><br />It's actually kinda amusing, waiting for the knee-jerk response that always comes (including how this will be responded to).


created: 2002-06-14 16:03:11
subject: <b>Interestingly...</b>
body:
My 'mad rantings' garnered a 92-8% approval/agreement rating on this board.  <br /><br />But why pass up a good chance to take a dig at someone? Facts, consistency and accuracy aren't what some people are interested in. <br /><br />I bet I could post a note saying &quot;Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn&quot; and that would bring an insulting retort from some folks. <br /><br />Sounds more like a personal problem, to me.


created: 2002-06-14 19:36:51
subject: <b>Well, Vashti...</b>
body:
I think the reason people dis you so much is because you sometimes make some stupid comments. Are you by any chance blonde? If you're blonde it makes sense. If you're blonde you have an excuse. Otherwise... hey, I'm not about to call you a ding-a-ling or a dunderhead or an idiot. I see no need to insult someone I don't even know. But if you submitted a theory saying that Rand is the Dragon Reborn... you'd have everyone in the Wotmania community shouting &quot;Duh, you moron!!!!!!!!&quot; So I guess you're right about that. <br /><br />(Did I just say VASHTI was right about something? OMG!!! &lt;jk&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 19:44:47
subject: <b>Now that the Vashti thing's out of the way...</b>
body:
Good theory. I doubt the prophecies are wrong, but you obvious put too much thought and effort into this for me to insult it and spit on it. Well-written and well-thought-out. Effort is always a good thing. But it's still really sad when I'd give you an O for effort and an F for achievement...<br /><br />So I lied. I did insult you. But I love bashing theories. It's so much fun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 20:26:37
subject: <b>*chuckle*</b>
body:
And who's THIS now? Another one crawled out of the woodwork?  Does anyone even know you? Of course, you lead in with an insult, which pretty much plants you firmly in a certain camp.  I'll start calling it &quot;The Blue Flamer's Club&quot;<br /><br />Motto: Never let intelligence interrupt a good insult.<br /><br />I guess water finds its own level.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-14 20:53:56
subject: <b>lol @ Vashti</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 21:12:04
subject: <b>It's getting disappointing</b>
body:
to see many theory response blackboards getting filled up with the insults that the &quot;frequent posters&quot; love to fling at one another.<br /><br />I don't post much (so I doubt anyone recognizes my name) and I obviously see the need to disagree with others' comments, but I'd rather that you guys kept everything in perspective. Realize that there's no reason to insult one another's intelligence or go tell them to read the fricken books...since you guys have all read them like 8 times!!!<br /><br />Reading this post back to myself I'm wondering why I even bothered but what the hell...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 21:27:56
subject: <b>It could be that prophecy</b>
body:
As I mentioned above it could be that prophecy is a talent like fortelling but that is not certain. The prophecies could be based on Aes Sedai's fortelling but clearly that is not the whole of it else how do you explain the dark prophecies. It may be a simple talent and what the &quot;prophecies of the dragon&quot; are are simply a collection of these from all peoples. The other possibility is that prophecy is not linked with fortelling and is not dependent on the power. It could come from crazy people. This would be a cliche and I don't believe it but it is a possibility<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda<br /><br />I would rather be feared then loved


created: 2002-06-15 10:59:52
subject: <b>Am I wrong or...</b>
body:
am I right if I remember someone mentioning outright that the Prophecies came from Aes Sedai with Foretelling. It's probably in one of the latest books, if it's there... or maybe it was Moiraine... Ah, heck, I don't know...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 15:44:23
subject: <b>Vashti, I'm Hurt...</b>
body:
No, not really. But seriously... I try not to insult your intelligence, and then you give me one more reason to. You don't know who I am? Even after you posted a couple comments on my Narishma Will Wield Callandor theory? Even after I had to correct your statement that the Red Ajah set up Logain as a False Dragon? See, I am familiar with your work, Vashti. I wasn't insulting you for the sake of insulting someone who had already been insulted on this blackboard. I wasn't necessarily insulting you, either, though I normally insult people. Hey, I am just a newbie, right? I do have respect for my elders... NOT!!! I do have respect for people who have been around here a long time... (cough uncontrollably.) Really, I'm not a member of this 'Blue Flamer's Club' that you mentioned.<br /><br />FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Blue Flamer's Club is now publicly accepting members. Sign up today, and let the theory-bashing and blackboard-burning begin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 15:58:26
subject: <b>Correction</b>
body:
You didn't make the Red Ajah comment, it was nickiq (or some such spelling.) You made the comment that someone other than Mat could blow the Horn of Valere. And that Narishma might not 'follow after' Rand (despite clarity in the prophecies that the person who draws Callandor from the Stone will follow after Rand.) Sorry. Just wanted to make that correction before you did.<br /><br />Although I think you said that Red Ajah thing in a different theory... I might have to search through the blackboard posts for that... hmmmm...<br /><br />&lt;TO AUTHOR OF THEORY: Sorry for getting so off the subject of your theory. It is a good theory, even if I don't happen to agree with it. As P. Floyd pointed out, there is more insulting of opinions going on in the blackboards than praises or disputes of the theory itself. Hopefully you can look back on this blackboard weeks from now and laugh at people casually taking cheap digs at a long-time member of the Wotmania community, Vashti. The Light shine on Vasthi for being the victim of so many jokes. (Or are they even jokes?... maybe they're serious...&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 00:18:59
subject: <b>IS EVERY MEMBER OF THIS BOARD A COMPLETE MORON?</b>
body:
Well, actually that insult was just to get your attention.  I'm normally a soft-spoken, considerate, smile-toting associate at the local Walmart...<br /><br />However, I do have a valid point to insert into this discussion.<br /><br />The prophecies are not false, per se.  They were not composed by the Dark One.<br /><br />They were not written by the Original Dragon Reborn, whoever that was (assuming there can be a first on an infinitely spinning wheel).<br /><br />They were not foretold by Light Aes Sedai, deep in the cavernous halls of the secret fortress.<br /><br />And they were not dreamed up by Mr. Rogers or the neighborhood baker, either, just to cover that approach in case any truly insightful posters reason their way there.<br /><br />I am sure that you all sit with baited breath anticipating my answer to the question -- Well, what are the prophecies, and where did they come from?<br /><br />Isn't it truly obvious?  The prophecies are simply the compiled legends, the mythology if you like, of Randland.  Think about it!  The prophecies are continually mutating, as we can see by comparing the excerpts from the 3rd and 4th ages.  The prophecies were never &quot;written&quot;--think of it as the bible, taken mythologically.  The actual events are clouded through time and are written down as told by the grandchildren of the grandchildren who witnessed the actual event... Speaking of which...<br /><br />I have to cut this short, but &quot;ages come and go, etc&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Paladin, defender of excellence in morality, literature, and writing</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 03:24:13
subject: <b>Someone other than Mat can Blow the Horn....</b>
body:
...if Mat dies.  Why do people find this to be a problem?<br /><br />&quot;Until Cauthon dies, he is the only one who can summon the heroes of the Ages.&quot;<br /><br />That's from the Wotmania Encyclopedia.  This is one reason WHY they haven't announced that the Horn has been found.  It's not common knowledge. <br /><br />I'm a little befuddled (waits for the obligatory retort on this) about why you find my saying so is a problem. <br /><br />And, of course, a bit amused about someone who acts patronizing to me, then immediately follows up the condescention with another note admitting that they actually aren't really sure what they're talking about.  Speaks for itself.<br /><br />And just because I post within your theory, doesn't mean I'm responding to you  (as this note indicates that I'm not responding to the author of THIS theory, despite it being in his thread).  I frequently respond to what other people say. <br /><br />The Methane Group lives on...Blue Flamers, Flame On!  (Of course, hot air comes naturally to them, it seems)


created: 2002-06-16 03:41:47
subject: <b>While We're At It...</b>
body:
And is there anything more lame than someone whining about 'cheap digs' when, after they come out of nowhere with an insult to someone, they get flicked off by that person like an inconsequential bug?<br /><br />I mean, really!  Hey, Beavis -- sometimes they shoot back.  Life isn't always a Nintendo game where you can set the cheat codes to invincibility and then think you're all buff an' stuff.<br /><br />Looks like it's open season on me.  Fine, bring it on.  We can dismiss Columbo and his 'mad rantings', since I guess he was insulting me for posting a theory that was popularly acclaimed.  You...man, you're just lame. I've never even written a thing about you and you come in thinking you have some wit and then sniffling like child that just got its hand whapped by a wooden spoon.  And GG...y'all don't even WANT to know what I did to him.  Took his own exact words and demonstrated how the points he was trying to bust me on were completely and utterly wrong.  Him prancing on, saying &quot;Vash said this and Vash said that!&quot; when actually, I cut and paste to him the exact words I wrote that were completely opposite of what he claimed I said.<br /><br />Of course, anyone else notice how it's only the people who seem incapable of communicating without an insult?  I'd say it says something about them; consider the source, and all that. <br /><br />Y'know, I didn't even say anything in this thread before people started up.  Some guy posts, citing something I wrote inspired it.  Some folks couldn't handle that, I suppose.  Had to sate whatever malice they have, falling all over themselves to act like dicks.  And here, all I said was I was flattered by the author, even if I didn't quite agree with him.<br /><br />I think it's pretty funny that I rent so much space in some folks' heads.  Losers.


created: 2002-06-16 09:21:21
subject: <b>A very interesting discussion</b>
body:
As someone above pointed out, the original &quot;Prophecies of the Dragon&quot; were written due to the Foretelling of an AS during the breaking of the world. But that doesn't mean that the DO or DF's couldn't have changed the exact meanings of her foretellings. In the subsequent translations. We know, or at least think we know that the Seanchan version has been changed. Why couldn't some DF translator changed the meaning of some verse of the prophecies ? I don't think this has been the case, but &quot;me reborn&quot;, may have been wrong saying the DO wrote the prophecies, but that doesn't mean some DF changed their meaning at some time. <br /><br />This has been fascinating thread. I hope to see it continue.<br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 19:18:18
subject: <b>LOL @ Vashti!</b>
body:
this guy really is too much! In the words of Vin Diesel: &quot;YOU had ME? You NEVER had me. You never had your car (or in this case, your dignity)&quot;<br /><br />We all can't be the editors of our High School newspapers, as you apparently were. Now, how did I know that? Oh yeah, it was when you chickened out from my kicking your arse and refused to poat on this board for more redball action. Instead, you noteboarded me with more attacks. Guess what? YOU STILL HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THAT POST. Does everybody want to know why? Because I used sarcasm, Vashti's Kryptonite. He didn't see what I was saying and decided to use it to attack, when a HS newspaper editor should have known better. <br /><br />The bottom line is this: Vashti does not know what he is talking about 80% of the time. Granted, sometimes he has good points, but they are drowned out by all the garbage that flows from his pie-hole. You want to talk quotes? Here are some of my Vashti favorites:<br /><br />When speaking of Moiraine's rescuers: &quot;When you got me thinking, the one I thought of instead of Egwene (who's awfully busy with other things), is Aviendha. Why? Well, mostly because she's a fire freak and she doesn't have anything better to do. Every notice our pretty little redhead is a pyro?&quot; Yeah. Almost had one there <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Avi met Moiraine for about two months, and never really talked to her anyway (she was too busy following WO's orders.) Besides, when did she use fire?<br /><br />Ah yes. That brings me to my next quote: &quot;1. She blasts a fireball during her Wise Woman training in the Waste that just makes Mat more worried.<br />2. Right after Rand balefires a Draghkar, she sends out a torrent of fire to fry one moving in on him.<br />3. (little shaky on this one) I thought after their little igloo tryst in the lands of the Seanchan, she sent fire.<br />4. When Elayne was trying to unravel the portal, she kept up a non-stop stream of fireballs. <br />5. She and Egwene used a lot of Fire (and Lightning -- but I wouldn't be surprised if one preferred a particular type) in the assault on Cairhien.<br /><br />All other female channelers tend to prefer Air or Air-based powers (lightning). She likes fire -- and lots of it. If I recall, she tends to use fire euphimisms a lot, too, just in normal speach. Some of it is simple stuff (with Min, talking about the heavy booze that burns, while Elayne was getting it on with Rand).&quot;<br /><br />Whatever, dude <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Guess what? The wise ones use it at Dumai's wells, as do the Asha'man at DW and the Seanchan battles in PoD. Apparently moiraine will be saved by all of these people. Moving on.<br /><br />Actually, this is Columbo being a bit hard on you, but with your &quot;I have nothing beter to do&quot; attacks on the both of us here, I thought I'd let this one in:  &quot;Your not brainstorming here. What your doing is trying to hit the lottery. Aviendha used fire on a few occasions WOW! I overwhelmed. Vashti, I think Master Gill will be the one to save Moraine. If I recall he's always been able to build a nice fire in his inn.&quot; lol. Man, that guy cracks me up. lol.<br /><br />&quot;Aviendha has used Fire as a weapon more than all other female channelers combined, if I remember correctly.&quot; You don't.<br /><br />&quot;Aviendha has experience with the Finns as well. At least one set of them. &quot; When was this, exactly?<br /><br />When trying to defend Avi's meeting with the finns, Vashti was asked when Avi met the finns. This was his response: <br /><br />&quot;Y'know, that gateway? Quite likely the gateway that all other Wise Women (and perhaps Clan Chiefs go through?)<br /><br />The Gateway where Moiraine went for info, and Rand? And likely Mat?<br /><br />The place where she learned about her inevitable relationship with Rand, that made her in such a pissy mood? <br /><br />We ARE talking the same Robert Jordan, right?<br /><br />There's something called 'reading between the lines', where one takes that which is implied and not necessarily what is set out in type. After all, we know Moiraine went through some gates/rings, even though we weren't in her direct PoV.&quot;<br /><br />Oh MAN! Did you get creamed on that one! Moving on.<br /><br /> On The difference between the finns and the Rhiudean Wise One's testing tool. &quot;Thank you for proving my point. Like the Accepted go through. Does it matter HOW one goes through? Don't you understand the inter-connectedness of everything in Jordan's world? Something/Someone(s) told Aviendha some things, and she has acted on it. Maybe you don't make connections between disparate events. If you don't, then you're missing half (or more) of what goes on in this series. &quot; Do I even have to comment on this one? lol. <br /><br />&quot;My point of interconnectedness (between the finns and the Rhiudean rings) stands &quot; Alright. Whatever you say <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I could go on moreso, but I tire of making fun of children.<br /><br />One last quote:<br /><br />&quot;My 'mad rantings' garnered a 92-8% approval/agreement rating on this board. &quot; Sorry to burst your bubble,  but remember when Columbo posted his theory on Rand and Fain's awareness of each other? You know the one that people attacked him for saying that it was common knowledge? The one where Moridin_2000 (who works the FAQ) said that he'd never even HEARD of the like? Yeah. That one. It had a 100% for rating until some sick maniac got a hold of it. It was at 100% for the first 130 or so votes. You know what it is now? 27-73. You know how many votes there are? 2624. That means that some sick animal sat there and voted against it ALL DAY LONG. Now, I'm not saying that was you, but I AM saying that votes don't really mean a whole lot on this board. In fact, I don't vote period, and I've read almost every theory on this site.<br /><br />If you want to attack me when I'm not around or havent said anything to you on the current subject, that's fine. If you want to argue until you know youre beat and then cop out (as you have the last 2 major arguments) that's fine, too. In fact, the next time I respond to you (which will not be on this thread), it will be with facts. Cold, hard facts. Thyat way we can avoid this stupid arguing. It has no point. After all, I don't even know you. <br /><br />In summary, I won't argue with you anymore. If you are correct, I will start a discussion with you on it. If you are not correct, you will deal with the facts I present.<br />Now then; go on with your response (which I'm sure will be priceless). I'll see you at the next stop.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 00:04:21
subject: <b>GG's Right</b>
body:
I DID take it off-list.  Hell, I never wanted it ON list.  Do I feel like making this board a swap-meet for insults? No.  Of course, he failed to mention that, as I have said several times, I have no interest in doing this at all. <br /><br />But frankly, I'm pretty damned tired of some pre-pubescents (in maturity if not chronology) taking unethical shots at me.  So I'll burn this board down RESPONDING to any crap they choose to sling, if that's what I have to do.  Every single person on this board can do their own checking and find that I have never, ever instigated any exchange between us.  Anything from me has been in response to the inflammatory, isulting practices of the newly-named (but long-standing) Blue Flamers Club. <br /><br />Is this what everyone wants?  Because if these are the Rules for Engagement, I'll play the game -- and I'll play well.  I'll match it until those who administer the page step in. <br /><br />GG, I'm not even going to refute you on your stuff, since I really don't have the time or inclination to go through, as I did the other day, pulling exact quotes AND THE CONTEXT THEY WERE USED IN  (the part that you so often warp or simply ignore), and shooting you down like a clay pigeon. But I'll post what I sent you if you like; it was  effective, since it seemed to shut you up pretty well (you didn't even mention it here).  I'll do the same for the other stuff you wrote if I have to.  Actual truth and proof seems to be to you what garlic and holy water is to a vampire; makes you shrivel up and blow away like dust. <br /><br />As for your implications that I skewed the vote, two things:  1. I posted in Columbo's thread that I agreed with what he wrote and that it was a strong theory.  You seemed to have left that out (what a shock).  2.  Open to anyone: petition the webmasters of this page to see who actually DID do the negative voting for it.  If it proves to be me, then I'll never visit wotmania again.   But GG figures no one will do that.  That would be actual proof and he doesn't want that. He'd far rather insinuate and mis-represent. <br /><br />So I'll leave it to the rest of the board.  Is this what you all want?  That this is a flame board?  I'll never start it -- but I'll certainly respond.  So, if your answer is 'no', then take care of the people who instigate, and there won't be any problem. <br /><br />Oh, and GG? It was a Pulitzer-prize winner.  Once again you get it wrong because you don't have the facts.  And once again, you don't let that stop you.


created: 2002-06-17 03:13:59
subject: <b>Can you just answer me these questions...</b>
body:
before you Costanza out of this MB? <br /><br />1: &quot;&quot;Aviendha has used Fire as a weapon more than all other female channelers combined, if I remember correctly.&quot; Do you still believe this, or was this just an impulse. No hard feeling if it wasn't, just admit it.<br /><br />2: &quot;Aviendha has experience with the Finns as well. At least one set of them. &quot; When was this, exactly?<br /><br />3: &quot;Y'know, that gateway? Quite likely the gateway that all other Wise Women (and perhaps Clan Chiefs go through?)<br /><br />The Gateway where Moiraine went for info, and Rand? And likely Mat?&quot;<br /><br />Do the Clan Chiefs and Wise ones go through the same tests in Rhudiean?<br /><br />4: Did Moiraine go through the Rhiudean doorway? <br /><br />5: Did Rand?<br /><br />6: Are you SURE that Mat did? Last I remember, he was the ONLY one to do so.<br /><br />7: &quot;My point of interconnectedness (between the finns and the Rhiudean rings) stands &quot; Can you explain the connection?<br /><br />Surely you must understand that the reason I attack you (I can't speak for Columbo.) is that you pollute the board with incorrect facts. Heck, mabye it's me that's wrong here. It's possible, true, but I'll keep on fighting until you answer the above questions with FACTS, and not your incorrect half-memories. The same goes with our recent Galad discussion. You twist and subvert the facts. I could care less about winning or losing an argument with you. What I want to do is figure ut things like who Demandred is posing as. That is why I post here: to have more minds than my own working on these subjects.<br /><br />When you post these incorrect facts (you had all of the above wrong when you posted them the first time, by the way.) you will be targeted. Not only by myself, but by people like Columbo, and more recently the Dragon Lews TheRIN. People like me (like I said, I can't speak for them) want to discuss factrs, which you don't always have. Be honest, now. You don't always have the right facts, do you? I've shown that above, and that's just outof one thread! I don't really feel like searching the other ones to shut you down further. <br /><br />The bottom line is this: This board is for facts, and Ideas backed up by facts. If you don't know the facts, then don't post your hair brained half-memories as the truth because you might fool newbies and then the discussion goes to crap. Like when people took Vergencentorix's (sp?) question about Graendal out of context. It was VERY misleading and many people still think that way because of it. I don't want to have to tell somebody that Aviendha never met the finns a year from now because you didn't have a clue. Follow?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 04:28:04
subject: <b>Someone took a wrong turn</b>
body:
Two comments:<br />&quot;The bottom line is this: This board is for facts&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Theory Post Blackboard&quot;<br /><br />Dude, I think you're so confused you don't even know where you are.<br /><br />The SPECIFICS you pulled were items mentioned of an IDEA I had (which you didn't mention) that any portal to the Finns is a journey into uncertain and so far, unknowable answers regarding Power and influence.<br /><br />Also, that the Finns wield a great deal more influence upon the world than many people seem to think, that we don't know the extent of it.<br /><br />And with Aviendha, you seemed to neglect mentioning that I wrote about ALL characters who were intimately connected to Moiraine and the Emond's Fielders, assessing their possibility and availibility.  This is classic scumbag Green Gaidin:  taking something out of context and stating that it was said in reference to something else.<br /><br />Man, what's it like to be such an unethical and dishonest scumbag? Should I start taking statements you made and deliberately use them completely out of context?  Assuming you maintain the validity of your own practice, if I do this will you concede all the points I make with it? It doesn't matter what I use 'em for -- after all, it doesn't matter for you, eh?  Twist 'em any way I can make a point and that's it. <br /><br />I notice you're referring to ancient history.  Still got the red marks from the smacking I gave you?  How's it feel to be on shaky ground?  You're so used to people not wanting to call you on your bullcrap, not wanting to sink into a distasteful exchange, that you lose focus all too easily.  Sit down, shut up, and let the more intelligent and ethical people talk. You've been played out. <br /><br />Aren't you bright enough to notice the way I've manipulated you?  It's either back down or ramp it up.  The more you step into it, the more you get muddy.  And this is nothing new for you; it all started with me when I and others were asking you and Concubine to knock off the negativity.  <br /><br />But you just can't stop yourself, can you? You are flat-out incapable of communicating in a civil manner, it appears. Do you know how EASY that makes you to screw with?  I'm leading you around by the nose.  Y'see, everyone knows how you're going to react. You're just one big button.  A passing breeze is enough to push it.  What a schmuck.  If you can't come strong, don't come at all.<br /><br />New rules:  every attack you make is going to be followed up with one of your quotes, taken out of context. You'll see how easy it is to do.  Oh -- were you thinking you were clever doing it?  Uh...sorry. Time to put on your 'Big Boy' pants.


created: 2002-06-17 06:30:50
subject: <b>oh well</b>
body:
Well, my first post seemed to generate a lot of answers, even though most of it wasn't directed at me!  <br /><br />I'm glad some of you thought I wrote well.  Too bad no one agreed with me!  Oh well, better luck next time, hey?<br /><br />MR.<br /><br />p.s.  To all the people calling me &quot;him&quot;:  I'm a girl!<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-17 06:41:20
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Vashti and GG:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Shut up!!!!!!<br /><br />Could u please have this discussion elsewhere!!! This is, like several people have said already, the THEORY POST... Is that OK for both of you???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 10:39:11
subject: <b>Gladly</b>
body:
As I said, I never wanted any of this in the first place.  As long as the Blue Flamers keep a civil tone, I won't make a peep beyond my....what was it? Ah, yes...'mad rantings'.<br /><br />The entire point of my responding is that it's precisely that: a response.


created: 2002-06-17 16:41:05
subject: <b>I can speak for myself...</b>
body:
GG, some of us really, REALLY enjoy a good laugh. Thank you for providing some great, classic Vashti material, but this joke is already old. Hate to say it, but you killed it when you started talking about the whole 'FACTS' thing. This is a cool site to go to because you get to interact with people, and my way of interacting with people is burning other people's opinions in as humorous of a way as I possibly can. Ribbing and joking are my specialties.<br /><br />Man, I would have a really bad image of you being this stubborn uptight if you hadn't added in the humor because you think everyone attacks Vashti because he's always wrong. Vashti isn't ALWAYS wrong. If you want me to put all humor aside, (man, this'll be difficult, I LIVE for humor) I have nothing against Vashti. Everyone makes mistakes, you dumb-arse, and there's no need to exploit them with facts. A joke or two (or three or four or five) is enough to lightheartedly let everyone know whether or not there's a mistake made. But being serious and stiff-backed about pointing out a mistake is just plain cruel. <br /><br />I may be a newbie, but I have a sense of humor and an inability to keep my mouth shut (Vashti probably has already noticed this) when the perfect opportunity to piss someone off with a funny (at least in my PoV) comment comes along. That doesn't mean I really, honestly believe that Vashti is stupid. So please don't speak for me again, GG. My stupid comments don't intend offense toward anyone, and even Vashti understood to some extent that I was joking around when I made like Columbo. Vashti found it amusing that a newbie would make a comment like I did. You didn't seem to understand that I was making a joke. You instead thought that I seriously was trying to insult Vashti's intelligence like you seem to thoroughly enjoy doing. Again, I'm begging you, don't put words in my mouth. I do enough speaking on my own, I don't need you to do it for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 20:40:37
subject: <b>The Dragon Lews TheRIN...</b>
body:
You never made like me!  Go play your game on another website.  You don't fool anyone with your game.  Don't think you can give the needle and then take it back.  If you don't agree with someone fine.  Give your reasons WHY you don't agree.  If you want to use humour go ahead.  Don't think that you can insult for no reason and then play like you meant no harm.  READ CAREFULLY,  YOU DIDN'T FOOL ME AND I WILL BE WATCHING YOU!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 21:44:53
subject: <b>A book is ...</b>
body:
A book is a mirror: when a monkey looks in, no apostle can look out<br /><br />Please stop arguing I come here to hear thoughtful debate about a book that I enjoy not to read insults. If anyone has any power to stop this sort of thing please use it.<br /><br />As mentioned before good theory.


created: 2002-06-18 02:36:36
subject: <b>Can all the newbie's and people who arent sure what this is all...</b>
body:
about do me a favor? You don't have to, but before you see a bad picture of me due to Vashti's whinings, go and check out our previous arguments. You'll know better when you read them, I trust.<br /><br />The dragon lews theRIN: &quot;people like Columbo, and more recently the Dragon Lews TheRIN. People like me (like I said, I can't speak for them)&quot; As you can see, I did NOT speak for you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Vashti: As much as it would inflate your ego to think that I care about your feelings in ANY way, I think that you are a bit mixed up. I have nothing against you, as you seem to do me. I could go through your last post and cite the names I was called, but to what point? You're just going to go on covering your ears and talking louder than everybody else. That's fine. I HAVE been attacking you, but in all honesty, that's because I didn't understand you. Now I do. You don't have a prayer in an actual WoT argument, so instead you just want to shout insults. Fine by me. <br /><br />Oh, and speaking of out of context! You know what I meant with the 'facts on this board' thing. I meant that I don't want to talk about completley unfounded rumors and hairbrained ideas with NO proof and inaccurate facts. Instead, I want to talk about who Demandred is, etc. <br /><br />The last 'discussions' have ended their WoT segments with you COMPLETLEY ignoring the last strong facts I had presented and roaming on to something else. Everybody who has read them knows this. In fact, nobody else here seems to mind your sometimes innacurate facts passed on as real events. <br /><br />I will leave off arguing with you with just one simple request, and if you can't meet it, I'll know that you couldn't answer them. Just don't respond, and I'll know. Like theRIN said above, everybody makes mistakes. Mine was arguing with you in the first place. Yours was backing up innacurate facts.<br /><br />My request is this: Can you answer the seven questions I posted above without saying that they were taken out of context? They weren't (although I DID fail to mention that the Avi thing was just 'brainstorming' on your part), although you would have others believe that. How can I take your saying that Avi met with the Finns, Moiraine went through the Rhuidean doorway along with Rand, etc. etc. out of context? Like I said, if you can't answer them, that's okay. Everybody makes mistakes. I admitted mine, can you do the same, or answer tehm with FACTS? This is a straight FACTS question. It has nothing to do with Theories.<br /><br />Like I said before (one of the many things you ignored), I don't want to have to explain to some newbie that Avi never met the Finns in a year.<br /><br />See y'all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:39:01
subject: <b>Absolutely</b>
body:
I AM completely ignoring your points or whatever they are.  Could I? Yes.  But I'm not going to.  Do I have something against you? Yes.  Long ago I and others got incredibly tired of your constant mockery and insults.  Then, of course, you turned it on me.<br /><br />Well, I'm pushing the envelope until you stop.  I'm going to bust your balls and point out what you are doing every single time you do it, until you finally start acting civil.  You want to act like a complete jerk? Fine. Do it somewhere else.  But an interesting side-effect of acting like a butthole is that it tends to piss people off. And I'm going to bust you up every single time.<br /><br />You used up any kind of Mulligan you might've claimed.  You are such an unremitting jackass that at this point, I'm doing precisely what someone requested here: pushing it until people running this board step in and make you (and presumably me) stop.  The difference is, I'd much rather stop.  But not you.<br /><br />And please -- did you REALLY just complain that you were taken out of context????  Is that not the height of hypocrasy, even for YOU???<br /><br />Just because in whatever world you live in that it apparently is okay to spew non-stop crap about people, doesn't mean it's okay everywhere else.  Or even most places.


created: 2002-06-18 12:21:22
subject: <b>Ha ha GG...</b>
body:
Smell something burning?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 21:41:35
subject: <b>lol. *wipes away a tear*</b>
body:
Oh man. That's a man looking for a way out. lol, Amusing. I like it, I like it. <br /><br />Yes, you can call me names all you want. Go ahead! Go on! I just shows YOUR level of maturity. Whatever. Not my problem.<br /><br />BTW, in case you were wondering, it was actually myself and some others that ganged up on YOU because of your innacurate facts (which you have avoided FOUR times in these Theory Board responses). Just thought you might like to know.<br /><br />Oh, and theRIN: That's your butt hair burning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> lol.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 03:09:19
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Hmmmm... I thought so too... lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:49:14
subject: <b>Emmm....nah!</b>
body:
You ask what would be so horrible about the forsaken after the breaking that the world could not face,  basically could not be told.  To me this is quite simple.  We know right from TEoTW that the stories regarding shadowspawn,  forsaken &amp; even the Dragon are believed to be total myth,  something to scare the children with.  Now everybody knows different simply because of events that have occured.  What if Rossel of Essam discovered before anybody else that the DO prison was mearly sealed temporarily and that the forsaken would one day stalk the land again,  therefore the Dragon would have to return to save the day according to prophecy.  Only 200 years after the breaking i feel that if this was to become common knowledge,  it would have caused wide spread panic as the memory of the catastrophe was still fresh.  Think about it,  u're just getting the world together again when someone comes along and says ''guess what,  eventually the forsaken wiill escape and the DO will touch the world again sometime in our future,  oh,  by the way the only man who can save us is the re-incarnation of the man who caused the breaking''.  U'd hardly be over the moon would you.  So keep it quiet as possible for the vast majority of the world and not cause panic before there is need for it.  It seems only some Aes-Sedai knew the part of the truth,  although not that Ishy/Moridin has been floating about for so long,  which also backs up my point.  Considering up until TEoTW most people south of the Borderlands and Tar Valon had never seen a Trolloc aswell,  probably never believed in the things at all!  Its the whole Jordan 'story to legend to myth' thing!  The world couldnt know that it wasnt over,  very far from it in fact,  that simple!  It seems to me that alot of these theories poated are people looking for complexities when there are none. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 20:55:40
subject: <b>Healing the Taint is a Prophecy!</b>
body:
Page 93 of book three Moraine says &quot;Even scholars who have studied the prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all.  What does it mean that he 'shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf'?  What does it meant that he 'shall' bind the nine moons to serve him '?  Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle.  There are others.  What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed?  What chains has he broken, and who put ino chains?  And some are so obscure that he may aleady have fulfilled them, although I am not aware of it.  But, no.  Callandor is far from the end of it.&quot;<br /><br />Wounds of madness I'd say means that the taint must be healed as the cutting of hope refers to the healing of being stilled or gentled. However, my question is 'What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?'<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-30 00:41:23
subject: <b>prophecies written in Rhuidean</b>
body:
I thought (though I don't have the book in front of me so no reference, sorry) that in TSR when Rand is seeing his past lives we are led to believe the AS with the Jenn write the Prophecies of the Dragon. I may be wrong it has been nearly a year sinc my last reading of TSR.


created: 2002-06-15 17:28:38
subject: <b>possibly</b>
body:
i also think that it would make for a good plot twist. It also would disprove the taimindred theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Truth Vengence Honor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 21:24:00
subject: <b>Taim and Fain</b>
body:
This theory would also explain how Taim has been able to locate Rand in the past (Dumai's wells, and in the cellar at the end of POD), but these can also be understood if Taim has access to Tel'aran'rhiod or if Taim is one of the Chosen (I think Moridin is masquerading as Taim).<br /> The main problem I see is one of communication.  How would Taim find Fain in order to report to him?  Would Fain not just kill someone who could probably destroy him?  I know some will doubt whether or not Taim could, but I recall Fain being afraid of Alviarin when he was in the WT, and I assume balefire would work. <br /> Taim knowing the asha'man is problematic, and interesting. He didn't interrogate Kisman, but may certainly have questioned Torval and Gedwyn before killing them.  Fain should have been still able to ID them as darkfriends, yet they would have been powerless against him.  This explains Fains' knowledge, and leads me to the conclusion Fain must have been watching Rand the whole time he was in Far Madding.  This leads me to ask, is Taim still using the Ways? He seems to get about a bit..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 23:58:14
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
Taim is not Demandred, for the record.  I like the idea of Fain pulling Taim's strings.  Though we've never seen Fain go against channelers, or atleast I don't remember.  Fain seems to be spreading himself a little thin as an advisor.  Also, how is Fain able to get around everywhere?  Having an Asha'man slave would explain this.  As I recall Taim, can travel so why would he need to use the Ways?


created: 2002-06-16 00:59:27
subject: <b>actually....</b>
body:
we learned that Taim escaped from the Aes Sedai in TSR, from Siuan's POV. During this time, Fain was ravaging the 2 Rivers.    If Taim had been corrupted by Fain, it would have had to have taken place sometime in FOH.  Siuan would have learned about Taim's escape very quickly, since it was so important- thus I doubt that Taim's escape actually took place during TDR.<br /><br />As for your 2nd main point, that Fain knew all of the Ashamen's name, and used them in the letter.  Well, this makes perfect since.  Fain, probably noticed the Ashaman trailing Rand, and a little investigative work by Fain (and perhaps a little Mordeth power) could have easily told Fain who those men were.  Don't work that Fain is very, very powerful and could probably get any information that he wanted out of someone.<br /><br />Overall, I liked the theory, but I see it as highly speculative.  It is the best theory I have read here in a month, and I like the possibility, but the timing doesn't seem match up between Taim's escape and Fain's own timeline.<br /><br />I have a few more thoughts, but I will include them in the next blackboard post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 01:07:37
subject: <b>Taim and the Prophecies</b>
body:
Here is an expanded version of a blackboard post I made last week.  <br /><br />I do have one thought: Taim was turned. There is some very interesting quotes in the prophecies of Dragon book. The interesting thing is, RJ actually endorsed these books and even wrote an intro in the RPG. Please note that the context of the books says that Taim was almost turned, but that he escaped before it was complete.<br /><br />Here are a few interesting quotes from Prophecies of the Dragon:<br /><br />&quot;Taim is held and shielded by the Black sisters in the large tent. The Black sisters use their time with Taim to break him to the will of the Dark One through mental and physical torture. &quot; - p.93<br /><br /><br />&quot;The Darkfriend plot becomes clear: the Black Ajah sisters intend to kidnap Taim, brainwash and control him, and set him loose on the world to commit atrocities in the name of Rand al'Thor. . . In the course of events Taim escapes, free to eventually meet Rand al'Thor and found the Black Tower.&quot; - p.6<br /><br />Important Note: Taim was not turned. He escaped before the plot was completed.<br /><br />However, if this info is true, there are several interesting theories we can draw from it. If Taim was actually hunted by the BA, it strongly means that he may not have been a DF. If Taim was not a DF, then how did he become a DF? It definitely means Taim is not Demandred.<br /><br />Taim might have been caught and turned at another time and turned. If it was tried once, it might have been tried again. <br /><br />We know that Taim escaped from the Aes Sedai right about the time of TSR.  But we don't know if these Aes Sedai were the same ones indicated in RJ's quotes, or if they were a different party.<br /><br />I still think that Taim may not have a darkfriend at the beginning.  So who could have turned him?  If he escaped from the Black Ajah, could it have been Fain?  I really like that possibility, and had never though of it.  However, the timing still seems a little off.  <br /><br />However, Fain could have possibility caught up with Taim in FoH.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 01:40:33
subject: <b>Sweet theory</b>
body:
I like the idea of it. It sounds like something Jordan would do. That would explain alot about Taim. I dont think hes a forsaken. Or better yet hes a forsaken that is being controled by Fain......... right........<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-16 02:01:35
subject: <b>What about the Gray Man?</b>
body:
<br />Fain was in Caemlyn when Rand ruled there. He was nearby to receive news from the young Darkfriend that an assassin had been able to slip past Rand's incredibly thick cordon of bodyguards to within knife striking distance of him.<br /><br />You'll recall that Taim &quot;saved&quot; Rand from the Gray Man. If he were under Fain's control, you'd think that Taim would have given Fain the news instead of allowing Fain to hear it second hand.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-16 02:10:02
subject: <b>One other possibility...</b>
body:
...is that Osan'gar, disguised as Dashiva, used Compulsion on Taim.<br />If the BA got hold of Taim and didn't quite finish the job on him before he escaped, what better way to complete his 'conversion' than by putting a Forsaken in the BT where they could get at him? <br />This is another reason why I believe it's impossible for Taim to be a Forsaken himself.  Two of them supervising the same domain wouldn't work... too much power struggle, besides the obvious redundancy of having two in one spot.<br />It's more than possible that Fain could be influencing Taim.  After Fain left the Two Rivers, he went to Andor and then to the WT.  But wasn't there an assassination attempt on Rand in Andor?  Men in grubby whitecloak uniforms (Fain's men, I'd assume)... or do I have the wrong city?  That would sort of imply that Fain went back to Andor after he left the WT, before he went to Far Madding.  I don't have books or maps in front of me, but wouldn't he have to go thru Andor to get to Far Madding anyhow?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 03:23:08
subject: <b>Problem</b>
body:
The problem with Dashiva pulling Taim's strings is that he was nearly always with Rand nowhere near the Black Tower.  I do like the idea of the Fain/Taim theory...or would that be Faim???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 03:27:31
subject: <b>corrections</b>
body:
I got Taim and Fain mixed up in my post back there.  Not paying attention properly, so it doesn't make sense.  I meant to suggest Fain was using the ways, not Taim.<br /> I lean away from the idea that Taim was turned, because the BA seem to have been bound against giving accurate info away about BA plots.  I did think he was killed and replaced, and that there's no better place for Moridin to be than pretending to be Taim.  I just don't think the other Chosen, or anyone else at all, has been privy to this fact.<br /> It would explain Taim's reaction when Rand chose Dashiva as one of his guards, and also when Rand named Dashiva as one of the Asha'man who tried to kill him.  But there's no solid proof, of course.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 14:57:59
subject: <b>Not bloody likely...</b>
body:
How does Fain work?  By giving directions and receiving reports?  Hell, no!  He keeps the people 'working' for him around him, corrupting them the entire time - see the Whitecloaks in the 2 Rivers and the lord (don't have my books with me at the moment) with him in Far Madding.  It isn't his style, by any means, to let one of his follower's wander astray and do what they will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 19:18:51
subject: <b>Fain's possesiveness</b>
body:
Fain is insanely jealous of his right to kill Rand personally (as he makes clear when he kills Kisman). Taim has ordered others to kill Rand, so IF Taim is under Fain's thumb, then Taim must have independently given the execution orders, &amp; I think Taim better start finding a safe place to hide from Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 20:09:13
subject: <b>About the Gray man...</b>
body:
Let's not forget that Rand had the Gray man caught in a web of air and that Taim burned a hole in his chest just after that. I took this to mean that Taim didn't want Rand to question the Gray man. If I remember right Rand also commented on killing the Gray man. Taim gave the lame excuse that he had already been casting when Rand caught the Gray man. Still I think it somewhat plausable that Fain could do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 12:09:13
subject: <b>I think it is possible that Taim was corrupted by Fain.</b>
body:
I can't see Taim being controlled by Fain though.  Fain could have given Taim a brush of what he gave Pedron Niall or the Elaida.  (I sometimes wonder if the beggar Gawyn met who gave him the news of Rand killing his mother wasn't Fain.)  I agree that this is the best new idea I have seen on the TP in a long time, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:02:32
subject: <b>I don't really think Fain is controlling Taim...</b>
body:
I think Taim is a new-Age Dreadlord, so I doubt he's being controlled by Fain. Taim could even be one of the Forsaken; in Lews Therin's time, there were more than the thirteen Forsaken we know of. Only those thirteen, the strongest and perhaps most evil Forsaken, were bound in the sealing of the bore. So Taim could be a newly-raised Forsaken. This would also explain Taim's sanity- if he had the bonds like the other male Forsaken, he'd never go mad from the taint.<br /><br />So I have to disagree with this theory. I don't think Fain is controlling Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 16:03:53
subject: <b>Fain keeps his followers on a leash</b>
body:
Helo !<br />As much as I can remember, Fain keeps close to the ones he tries to use, never go far off or they start again to think by themselves:<br />Turak, Nial, Dain Bornhald, or the other guy (can't remember his name, but he's a blademaster) when Rand gets his 2nd wound by Fain. Fain stays close to them. So I can't imagine him driving Taim from far off, where his influence would be diminished.<br />Any Comment ?<br /><br />Drake


created: 2002-06-17 20:57:36
subject: <b>Matrimony Cauthon is right...</b>
body:
Fain went from Falme to Amador ( Niall) and then joined Dain Bornhald and went to the two rivers.  As Matrimony mentioned earlier the timeline doesn't match.  Fain and Taim don't work! <br /><br />Fain still uses the ways.<br /><br />Fain once showed interest in the Seanchan empire.  Cuddling up to the Empress controlling a nation united and strong is something more appealing to Fain.  That said Fain's focus is on killing Rand first and foremost.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 21:23:04
subject: <b>I have to disagree</b>
body:
I just can't see Taim taking orders from Fain. I don't see how Fain could control or compel him. Fain is almost never given direct charge of anyone or thing. Even with the Two Rivers fiasco He is there as more of an advisor. The idea of Fain ordering around Taim who is a very strong male channeler seems unlikely. Simply put I don't think that Fain has the muscle to compel obedience. His presence is capable of inspiring distrust in the extreme but not of comendeering anyone's will. It would be an interesting twist, but it isn't likely at all. Fain is better at playing the role of subservient servant and then turning on his master's wishes. It is possible that Taim orders Fain. I think that that would make more sense. Fain would be like a rotten worm in the apple slowly destroying it from within. He would slowly turn Taim against Rand, not that Taim didn't come into this set against Rand but it would certainly worsen his dislike. Can anyone provide a reason why Taim is not in contact with Fain?<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda<br /><br />I would rather be feared then loved<br /><br />A book is a mirror: when a monkey looks in, no apostle can look out


created: 2002-06-18 17:15:34
subject: <b>Fain is contagious</b>
body:
Everyone whom Fain controls eventually goes insane.  Fain's madness is contagious.  Anything Mordeth gives to you is tainted.  Riatin was last seen as a raving lunatic.  Bornhald went off the deep end.  If Fain and Taim had any contact with each other, Taim would be showing signs of it by now.  Paranoia and suspicions.<br /><br />The Shadow and Fain's brand of evil don't work together.  They cancel each other out.  Fain knew those 4 Asha'man because he spent a few weeks spying on them, studying them, watching their every move.  He can see Darkfriends at a glance.  He had plenty of time for spying, and he had Riatin with him to do his grocery shopping.


created: 2002-06-19 02:52:05
subject: <b>Yet another Moronic Post</b>
body:
OK, listen up. Taim is not in any way associated with Fain.<br /><br />At all.<br /><br />Fain's primary goal is to personally kill Rand. If Taim was in Fain's control or even allied with him then Fain could easily of had a Gateway provided that would lead him directly to Rand. Why would Fain ignore this possibility? A gateway to Rand's Bedroom, a quick slice and thrust and a jump through the Gateway and he is homesafe and ready and able to pursue his own vendetta against the Dark One. Fain likes using others and setting up intricate plots, but he is also somewhat of a fanatic (not to the point to ignoring his own personal safety thou) and would not simply lie low for such a long time. There is no connection between them. <br /><br />As for Taim and his motives all we know from FACTS (of which there are quite few in this post) is that either he serves the Dark One or has some really odd ideas about how to serve Rand the best. Of course, he could just be insane. Heheheh HA HA HA HA MUHAHAHA<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 14:15:33
subject: <b>scorp....</b>
body:
I don't think that this was a moronic post.  It got a lot of people talking and thinking about a possibility that had not been brought up before, even though I don't personally believe it.


created: 2002-06-20 12:47:34
subject: <b>Ooohers</b>
body:
Wow, I had never even thought about that.  Sure would fit with the evil scum sucking Taim's agenda.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I went to San Fransisco.  I found someone's heart.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /> I am da Hossmeister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> It's Uno! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />wotmania army of darkness<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Edge breaks the walls down</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 23:51:20
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
Could Fain control a channeler that's almost as strong as Rand? Honestly, I think Taim reports to Demandred or Moridin (if he isn't one of them- I doubt he is. Someone already said that they think Taim is a new-Age Dreadlord or Forsaken, and that seems far more likely to me.) Good theory, even though I don't really think it's true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 17:18:58
subject: <b>Parallelism</b>
body:
RJ is a big fan of Parallelism.  Remember that events similar to what is currently happening in the WoT have already happened in previous Third Age and will happen again in another Third Age.  So, I can assume that with each turning, certain events are repeated.<br />I like Matrimony's idea of Taim being turned but I think Taim chose to be a DF without being turned.  I am really curious what 'Demandred' means in the OT.  Sammael is Betrayer of Hope, Ishmael is Destroyer of Hope, etc.  Does Demandred mean 'Envious One?'  That is not a non-sequitor.  Taim is envious of Rand.  When Rand made his first speech to the Black Tower, his every comment to the group was well-received, if not with an ovation, at least with approval.  The scene where Taim first arrives at the farm shows how very distrustful the other prospectives are towards Taim but that Grady is more than willing to talk to Rand about a personal problem.  That Rand gets respect and Taim has to earn it is like LTT and Demandred.  That Rand is accepted as the Dragon Reborn by Bashere while Taim becomes something of an officier under Rand is like LLT becoming the leader of the forces of the Light and Demandred merely a general.  The paralells are too strong and tempting for RJ to do anything else.<br />Finally, consider the location of Demandred, relative to Semirhage and Mesaana.  He comments to them about how their locations, chosen by who was there not strategic concerns, are not as random as they seem.  If you draw a line from Tar Valon (Mesaana) to Ebou Dar (Semirhage with the Seanchan), you pass close to where the Black Tower is.  The DO, through some uber-subtle manipulations, has created a battle-line that fulfills the prophecy &quot;The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.&quot;  Right now Rand's forces are from the east with Bashere's forces from the north and the Borderland armies seeking out Rand to, probably, join with him.  At the same time, Graendal manipulates Arad Doman, the Seanchan control Tarabon, Altara, and Amador.  Illian aside (since control of it is being fought over at the end of Winter's Heart), the DO controls the south and west.  The dividing line is between Ebou Dar, Andor, and Tar Valon-right where the three allied Forsaken have set up bases.<br />All in all, this makes too much sense on a number of levels.  In a story this complex, RJ would avoid a convoluted answer.


created: 2002-06-26 01:09:06
subject: <b>A Unique Theory</b>
body:
First of all, i am one of the few supporters of the theory that Demandred is Taim.I know it doesn't make sense for there to be two Forsaken in the Black Tower, but if I remember correctly(and this is just of the top of my head) doesn't Greandel say in WH &quot;and you two were supposed to be watching him!&quot; to Osan'gar and Demandred?  But if Taim is just Taim, it would be a cool plot twist to have him be controlled by Fain.


created: 2002-07-01 22:52:26
subject: <b>Likely to one of the Black Ajah.</b>
body:
Why do I say this?  Because Taim is arrogant, and Taim conviently &quot;escaped&quot; from Aes Sedai custody.  Very few could have convinced him to &quot;serve&quot; certainly not any ordinary Dark Friend, so it would seem only one of the Forsaken or a member of the Black Ajah could have turned him.  I'm sure when he was held, promising to serve the Dark One was small price to avoid Gentling and death.<br /><br />Now why isn't serving Fain?  Well first Fain had no reason to seek out Taim.  After all Taim did not know Rand.  Furthermore whenever Fain got some one to serve him he broke them so that they feared him. Point in fact, the Trollocs it The Great Hunt, he kills their Fade to make them obey him.  Another example, the Whitecloaks that Fain controls in The Fires of Heaven.  They have lost all of their Military discipline and wallow in filth.  <br /><br />Finally Fain has never sent agents after Rand, he always goes after him personally. It makes me wonder what happens to all those who are controlled by Fain.<br /><br />So Taim is almost certainly a Dark Friend and probably well on his way to becoming one of the new Dreadlords (note the masculine lord, maybe Darkfriends aren't politically correct, or maybe not every man since the Breaking was Gentled or gone insane).


created: 2002-07-08 13:09:51
subject: <b>Wrong &quot;Facts:</b>
body:
I think we need to re-examine the evidence we have that Fain knows Taim, namely the letter in Far Madding.   <br /><br />Ok so lets examine everything we know about the letter; parchment with no seal.  No identifying marks.  Written in a spidery hand, no signiture.   <br /><br />Ok I think its safe to say that the person who wrote it DOESN'T want to be identified.  Why would Fain wan't to remain hidden?<br /><br />Now lets look at another candidate for the author, Verin Mathwin.   From her point of view we know she has been to Far Madding in the semi-recent past. If I am not mistaken she may be from there, in either case she has ties to the city.   She knows who Rand is, where he is, why he is there and who he wants to kill. She has given her loyalty to Rand as well. Being Aes Sedai she cannot write or speak a lie.  Most important the letter was in her writing, see A world of dreams in TDR.  We see her writing when she give the info on the Black ajah to the girls.  But as far as i can recall she has never sent Rand anything written in her hand.<br /><br />OK now lets analyze the letter's contents.  <br />She feels a certain amount of loyalty to him so she wishes him well.<br />She knows he tend to sow chaos and death where he goes by the mere presence.<br />She knows about Rochaid and Kisman via Min.<br />Having studied the dagger (via Mat) to a small degree she knows the appearance of a dagger-death and can listen for rumors about a person who died violently being found with a &quot;plauge&quot; victim being found together.  Since she has descriptions of the Asha'man and knowledge of the city she was likely able to find the location of the Asha'man for Rand.  <br /><br />Now why wouldn't Verin want Rand to know it was from her?  Why does she want to hide her identuty in Far Madding.  I think she wants to avoid his questions as well as the counsels, personally i think it has something to do with the 70 year plan.


created: 2002-08-04 21:58:25
subject: <b>Better than Taimadread *NM*</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> I am SSJ Jozan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> swords are awesome <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of good books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Lini is the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Cookies and cartoons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Masema <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 10:06:29
subject: <b>contradicting the theory</b>
body:
If Fain had infiltreaded the Black Tower,why would he then kill his would-be be-rid-of-Rand`s? In Far Madding he kills (I don`t remember,I think it`s Kisman or Rochaid) one of them saying &quot;he`s mine&quot;... And Taim ordered Rand dead. Why would Fain work against his own orders?


created: 2003-02-11 20:33:10
subject: <b>Makes sense!</b>
body:
This makes a ton of sense! I have long since given up on the Taim/Demandred theory, but it's clear that Taim isn't Rand's friend. Everything would fall into place if this was true!


created: 2003-07-12 22:33:34
subject: <b>Taim + Fain = Nonsense</b>
body:
Since Taim (the M'Hael) sent Asha'man to kill Rand, and then Fain killed on of said Asha'man, Taim and Fain cannot be working together/one for the other.


created: 2003-08-22 09:05:53
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
I think your right about Taim being corrupted but I belive heis one of the Forsaken in disguise. It could be true, Lews Therin wants to kill him and won't stop complaing about not killing him, he is as powerful as Rand and 'coincidentaly' discoverd something lost like Traveling and managed to fend off the inevitable madness for almost fifteen years. Being close to he Dragon Reborn is a good way to learn his plans,strenghs,weakness' and kill him and be named Nae'blis or something like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Never trust a skinny chef</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-08 02:54:55
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
But I think Taimn is the Dark one him self allready free from his prision. The Dark One always knows where Rand is so does Taimn.. something too pounder<br /><br />Robb44<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 21:44:53
subject: <b>Hmmmmmmm..........</b>
body:
Interesting, but I'll have to stick with the seeing ta'varen thing for now. At least until Jordan tells me otherwise. Read And Find Out, I guess. Dammit!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 21:50:35
subject: <b>I agree with GG</b>
body:
There isn't anything to suggest Logain is seeing anything other than Rand for the immensely powerful ta'varen that he is.  I don't have my books here, but hasn't it been said that he is as strong a ta'varen, if not stronger, than Hawkwing himself?<br /><br />If Logain can see ta'varen, as it seems, it would be very very clear to him that someone this strongly ta'varen would shake the foundations of the world.  If he had Min's talent, we certainly would have seen much more by this point - it's way too late, and frankly ridiculous, to insert this into the story now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 22:28:05
subject: <b>I agree, but this was mine!</b>
body:
Not that I am accusing you or anything, but I just want to point out one thing. Let me just say that I agree completely with what you said; I think it's  very true. I think that it is SO true, in fact, that I submitted this same theory about two weeks ago, and it never got put up! Argh! Whats going on here? It was the same exact thing! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />At least yours did get up, I guess, but this is really weird. Anyway, nice theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 00:03:33
subject: <b>Take a look at</b>
body:
Siuan's first impressions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 01:43:25
subject: <b>Damn, beat me to it...</b>
body:
As Darth Dragon says above, check Siuan's (who shares that Talent) impression of Rand. She says that he glowed like the sun, and he frightened her so much Agelmar thought she was being brusque with him.<br />Now remember, this is Siuan, the woman who took being stilled and stripped of staff and stole  and managed to turn it into a rebellion against the woman who did so, knowing almost nothing of where she was going or what she was doing, accompanied by a former False Dragon, almost without missing a beat. Siuan doesn't scare easily, but seeing Rand scared her, knowing that she could see ta'veren. Even if Logain didn't know, then I think the premonition would be there if he saw Rand &quot;glowing like the sun.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 03:26:05
subject: <b>Eh?</b>
body:
Whos sayins that Logain wasn't senseing Rand's strength in the power?  Maybe Logain can sense things such as that more acutely.


created: 2002-06-17 05:59:27
subject: <b>Rongar</b>
body:
Men can't do that. Full stop. They have to do the &quot;resonance&quot; test to know if someone can channel, the one Taim does with the Asha'man. A man can also never know what someone's strength is - when Rand tells Taim to hold as much of <i>saidin</i> as he can, he holds almost as much as Rand can, but Rand has no way of knowing whether Taim is really at his limit, or was holding back a little to hide his full strength. Besides, when women do it they have to be close, as in a couple of paces away. Logain couldn't make out Rand's face. No-one can know what a man's potential strength is either, until he reaches it his strength could just keep going up and up.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 09:47:19
subject: <b>Logain POV</b>
body:
I am seaching to see if there is a POV written from Logain's perspective in any of the books. If so, we might gain some insight. If not, we won't know what he may or may not see (i.e., an aura ala Min, etc.) or know.<br /><br />I'll keep looking.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mercy!&quot; cried Gandalf: &quot;if the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What do you want to know?&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:14:00
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
He's just seeing ta'veren. A really strong, powerful ta'veren. That's pretty much all I have to say about it. The admins pretty much wasted their time posting this theory. Even my brother's (brother= Unfriendly Asha'man, just incase anyone ever sees him on this site, but he rarely comes here anyway) un-posted submission was better than this one. And his submission really, really sucked. Trust me, I had the job of proofreading it AFTER he submitted it (that dumb-you know.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 15:54:22
subject: <b>&quot;Talents&quot; aren't black &amp; white.</b>
body:
It's fairly well documented that there are different degrees of sensitivity to things regarding the one power, the pattern, the big picture, etc.  A few examples include Loial's unexplained recognition of ta'veren, the Asha'man thinking of &quot;wind&quot; when they saw the Bowl of Winds at work, Nynaeve's weather sense &amp; various impressions when sorting through *angreal, etc.<br /><br />The most visual example of this awareness of the pattern is obviously Min, who probably represents the most extreme end of the scale.  Close behind her ability would be Dreaming, then maybe Foretelling, etc.  The general Ogier sensitivity would probably be towards the bottom of the scale, as would the wolves.<br /><br />And although I don't believe Logain has Min's power, it's entirely possible that his ta'veren recognition is more comprehensive than say, Nicola's.<br /><br />And it's also quite possible that his more complete view of Rand's destiny is simply a result of the Talent appearing in a man, instead of a woman.  Maybe men are generally better at picking out ta'veren, just like they are generally more adept with fire &amp; earth.  There haven't been male channelers in so long, that noone really knows what they're capable of, and what's typical of them.<br /><br />So in short, this is hardly a black &amp; white world that Robert Jordan has created, which makes classifications &amp; generalizations quite difficult.  A lot like in the real world, actually . . . . .


created: 2002-06-17 16:39:52
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
Its been awhile since we have had a thought provoking theory up.  My take is similar to yours.  I think Logain not only saw the glow around Rand, but could interpret it as well.  That leads into why I think Min saw the vision of Logain obtaining glory...His Talent will help him with this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 18:47:57
subject: <b>Good job Daemione.</b>
body:
I don't know as I necessarily agree with the theory but it is certainly a possibility. I like the way that you have pointed out the difference of degree possible. Nicely done. I personally believe that Logain has the talent to see Ta'veren (The description is too similar to that of Siuanne's and Nic's.) still it is an interesting idea. <br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda.<br /><br />I would rather be feared then loved.<br />


created: 2002-06-19 14:48:31
subject: <b>Logain POV</b>
body:
I don't think there is a Logain POV, except possibly in book 9. At any rate, it isn't in the flashy new POV Index!<br />          Seia Cair<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-05 07:36:13
subject: <b>That quote you were looking for... (Possibly)</b>
body:
When Min and Logain first arrive in Salidar and are waiting for Siuan and Leane [tFoH, trapped, P.436/437] I read these quotes and thought the same as the theory...<br /><br />&quot;Logain stirred, too, for a wonder, but only to stare at the people in the room, or maybe through them; it was hard to tell.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;He was staring at the Aes Sedai faces, one by one, and appearing to see more than he had in days.&quot;<br /><br />Hope it helps...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 10:38:45
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
<i>Ta'veren</i> always shake the world.  Rand was glowing; that's pretty significant to someone who doesn't know his Talent.


created: 2003-02-03 15:38:20
subject: <b>i dont think so</b>
body:
I think that this just means that Logain can see ta'veren, and he might have known thats what Rand was and he knew that this ta'veren would shake the world.


created: 2003-04-25 12:56:22
subject: <b>I would have to agree</b>
body:
Logaine can apparently see Ta'veren.  Nothing I can remember about any of the books would suggest anything more although it is a possibility.  I would also have to assume that ta'veren are pretty rare so Logain probably wouldn't have had much if any opportunity to exercise this talent.  Therefore seeing someone glowing like the sun would certainly have a pretty big impact on him.<br /><br />Regardless of what talents he may posess....and I don't discout the fact that he may have more than simply seeing ta'veren...just haven't seen proof of it yet...I look forward to seeing his storyline expanded a bit.  He is one of the more interesting secondary characters IMO.  I get the feeling that the black tower has become infested with darkfriends and that Logain and the followers he is gathering will be the ones on the side of the light at the end.  I don't think that merely being healed and gaining the status of full asha'man fulfills Min's vision of the halo around him.  He has big things in his future.


created: 2004-12-08 13:40:55
subject: <b>lets get 1 thing straight</b>
body:
min's kind of viewing would not help logain achieve hi afor-propheised glory. once he has viewed something it is a dead-cert. nothing can in any way shape or form can change that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 21:45:18
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
Maybe I'm forgetting something really obvious, but why would balefiring Lanfear have this result...Possibly a complete rip in the pattern, as you suggest, would have this result, but I just don't see why it would be Lanfear.<br /><br />Clearly, she's going to get her come-uppance at some point, but this just seems to be wild speculation; again, I may be forgetting something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 21:52:29
subject: <b>Why do these post keep coming up?????</b>
body:
http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/interviewmarcon36.asp<br /><br />&quot;No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.&quot; <br /><br />That should answer that right there. <br /><br />You have to remember, too, that the AoL didn't just happen. It must have gone through some sort of Industrial Revolution itself to be where it was. Hence Rand building these schools must have happened in the past/future, too. <br /><br />One last thing: just because our fellow Westlanders could forget about the Wheel (although they don't, hence the quotes from the 'Fourth Age') doen't mean that it's gone. If the wheel is gone, then the Pattern unravels and reality ceases to exist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 22:16:27
subject: <b>paradox</b>
body:
The idea of a balefire powerful enough to kill Lanfear back to before the drilling of the Bore, wouldn't that balefire also disrupt any path in time to create Rand, thus not having a Rand to kill Lanfear, etc.<br /><br />Just trying to say that the pattern itself may not let a channeler create a balefire strong enough to cause him/her to not exist anymore.  <br /><br />another thought on this is what if you could balefire a parent to before you were born...<br /><br />My two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">________________<br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 00:16:29
subject: <b>Other Possibilities</b>
body:
I like the line of thought Matrimony introduces regarding balefiring Lanfear might prevent the Bore from being made, but don't think it could go beyond that.  That would fit better perhaps the idea that Rand will oversee a complete FIX of the Bore, not just a plug. <br /><br />Moiraine is one possibility, but another could be Aviendha.  Remember, she and Lanfear have some basis for a grudge; the scene on the docks before Moiraine tackled her was because Lanfear was freaking out that Aviendha had slept with Rand. Plus, she was killing her (and Egwene, since she was unaware who was who) before Moiraine's interference.  <br /><br />I'd rule out Egwene, because that just doesn't seem to be the way she works.  Balefire's pretty personal.  But Avvy is capable of it; she's pretty ruthless and likely remembers. <br /><br />This is just another possibility, not a contradiction of Moiraine.


created: 2002-06-17 01:25:15
subject: <b>Re:Why lanfear</b>
body:
Hmmm i don't know maybe because she's one of the 2 that drilled the bore..and the others dead..nah that couldn't be it.. anyways that'd be the worst ending i could think of if Lan gets Balefired back to AoL ..the ripples would kill EVERYONE they are treads in the pattern it goes bye bye everyone would too ...so we'd be left with 1 REALLY POED Creator(if some stupid mortals just destroyed one ofr your greatest works wouldn't you me pissed hehe) the DO and a world with no one... great ending


created: 2002-06-17 01:29:18
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Nope, because everything thats happening now, has happened before in a way in another Age.  This is RJ's way of pointing out that history repeats itself.


created: 2002-06-17 04:17:33
subject: <b>I'm confused</b>
body:
I really don't understand why so many people want to conclude that this is the last age and that RJ will turn &quot;Randland&quot; into Earth and somehow channelling will be forgotten.  Maybe because Tolkien and a few other SF writers hint that their worlds could be precursors to Earth everyone wants to find a link.  RJ is telling this story because its a good story and he's showing how history is important and it will repeat itself.  So please everyone stop getting crazy ideas like the wheel will break or &quot;Randland&quot; will become Earth.  RJ is telling one story from the Third age.  The cycle will continue on and on.  Enough on that, I've vented my frustrations.  Long live Faile.


created: 2002-06-17 06:13:16
subject: <b>Just a few points</b>
body:
Moraine would be unable to balefire Lanfear that strongly as one the female Cheadon Kal(sp)has been broken and two she would be unable to control that much of the OP as she is not that strong. Also Moxyll asks the idea of a paradoxif that were to occur. This ahs been discussed many time but the best example I can think of off teh top of my head is when Rand balefires Rahvin. Rand should then never have been chasing him but he did. Balefire cannot cause paradoxes as the time that it occurs is the first 'univirse' as it were, there are not multiple univirses, thus causing paradoxes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 06:56:22
subject: <b>Mutiple universes...</b>
body:
Of course there are multiple universes or should I say is a multiverse. At least there are worlds with every possible different choice being made by every different person. That is a lot of worlds. Remeber back to TGH, when Rand, Loial and Hurin (the Sniffer) fell asleep with Inggtar and the boys and woke up in a hazy quasi real world next to a portal stone. Also, where Selene (Lanfear) makes her introduction to Rand. <br />Now unless Elaine or someone else make another Key ter'angreal for the Choedan Kal's female half noone is going  using them. They are too powerful to use without the buffer of the Key.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 10:50:23
subject: <b>Why that's REALLY REALLY DUMB....</b>
body:
If balefire that powerful was used (on anybody), it would probably unravel the pattern alone.<br /><br />If it was used to circumvent the entire drilling of the BORE, it is impossible to say wether any of the world of WoT as we know it would remain...Rand wouldn't have been born. Manetheren probably never would have been shattered...the Trolloc War never would have happened...Hawkwing...there's so much that happened because of Mierin drilling the Bore...<br /><br />NO WAY...would never happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 12:03:59
subject: <b>Breaking the Wheel</b>
body:
Also, doesn't the Dark One want the Wheel broken? If a shot of balefire that strong would break the Wheel, then what would be the point because the Dark One would still win.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-17 12:49:40
subject: <b>Bah</b>
body:
This is another theory that refuses to do the right thing and die.  The strongest balefire we have seen up to this point is when Rand killed Rahvin.  That burned out about a half hour from the Pattern.  Do you have any idea how many half hours there are in 3000 years?  52,560,000!!!  Do you think that any s'angrael increases the use of the Power by that kind of magnitude?  Recall that Rand still had the little fat man angrael when he fought Rahvin.  So even with the help of a small angrael, all he could manage was 30 minutes.  The idea that you could burn out 3000 years of history with no &quot;disagreeable side effects&quot; is preposterous.  It would <b>not</b> be a great ending.  It would be about the cheesiest ending possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:13:24
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I really have enjoyed your comments to the board, Matrimony, but balefire this strong would rip the pattern apart. Thats the whole reason why even the shadow stopped using balefire.<br /><br />That being said, there is no question in my mind that Moiraine will be back, and Rand will need her to succeed, but nothing yet has indicated she will be the one to face down Lanfear. And yes, the female half of the Chodal Kah has been destroyed. Although, I do believe that Elayne will make great strides in developing new ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal.<br /><br />On interesting thing to note is when Moridin asks Demmy (I think it was Demmy) if he would do anything for the Shadow, even use balefire... Could this be foreshadowing? Would the DO be willing to destroy Randland if he cannot conquer it?<br /><br />Peace, Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:13:40
subject: <b>It is not possible, I think,</b>
body:
to create such a strong weave of balefire.<br /><br />When Rand balefired Rahvin, he used quite a lot of saidin I think, and this weave removed Rahvin from the pattern a couple of hours back.<br /><br />To remove someone from the pattern over 3000 years back, would require several million times the amount of the Power Rand used on Rahvin (assuming that the power requirements increase linearly with time).<br />Not possible.<br /><br />Besides, if it was possible, it would probably totally unravel the pattern due to the enormous paradoxes.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:38:11
subject: <b>sorry,</b>
body:
that I subjected you to my worst theory ever.<br /><br />This is just speculation and mind candy.  <br /><br />I was on exile fromt theorypost, and then I got bored and had a few thoughts that turned into a bunch of thoughts, so I decided to post them to theorypost.  These mad ramblings are the result.<br /><br />We haven't had too many theories here in the days of late, so I figured I might as well bring it over here, seeing as how the admins have been quite lax in what they have been posted lately (this theory included).<br /><br />I am not really going to defend myself, but I want to make a few clarifying points.<br /><br />As far as the female Choedan Kal goes, there still is a half-broken access key out there.  Egwene saw it in dreamworld in Tanchico.  I believe that Elayne will eventually get ahold of it and fix it. But, as to how it will be used is still up in the air.<br /><br />I am going to throw out a few more thoughts here since we need a good discussion.<br /><br />What if a cicle of some 90 channelers was made, and all the known angreal and sa'angreal were used together?  What would the net result be?  <br /><br />The reason I wrote this theory in the 1st place was to explore the possibility of the wheel breaking.  I am well aware of what might happen if Lanfear was balefired since before the bore.<br /><br />That might break the wheel itself, or severely wound it for some time.  This is what was interesting to me, because if the wheel was somehow wounded then the people living in the world might completely forget of its existence.  Channeling might be lost in the process.<br /><br />I was interested in that idea from a mythological point of view.  A great deal of myths have a separation of the magical and the everyday.  In Hindu mythology, there is even a separation of ages from the Golden age to the Iron age to the Copper Age to The Dark Age (called yugas).  <br /><br />In the Dark Age it is said to be an age of materialism, where the spirit is almost completely forgotten.<br /><br />Personally, I could care less if RJ's world has anything to do with our world.  I am not one of those people who tries to say that his world is a reflection of ours.  However, I thought that his story might be greatly amplified if there is some special significance of the particular age in which he is writing about.  <br /><br />I thought one intriguing possibility is if the wheel was severely wounded, on the point of being broken.  I think you all get the idea (or hopefully you do).<br /><br />Flame on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 13:42:00
subject: <b>ah yes,</b>
body:
as a token of the fact that I submitted a lame theory, I will offer my 50 points to the most worthy cause, flamers need not apply.<br /><br />Let me know of your worthy cause, and I will weigh its worthiness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 15:37:19
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Even if a circle of 90 channelers was made and they all used angeral or sa'angeral someone would have to control the flows. No one, not even Nyn or Rand could do this. They would be burnt to a crisp. Or at least I think this is right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 16:09:12
subject: <b>Sparrahawk...</b>
body:
Most an'greal and sa'angreal (other than Callandor) are buffered against drawing too much of the One Power. Just thought I'd point that out to you.<br /><br />Good theory, but wouldn't that- balefiring Lanfear out of the Pattern completely- disrupt the entire Randland, kill a whole lot of people, re-write history, create new people who were never born because of all those people that died in the War of Power... the list goes on. I think that would do far too much damage to the entire population. Moiraine, and Rand for that matter, seem like too sensible of people to destroy the Pattern and the Wheel like that. It is a plausible theory, but I'm not sure RJ would have it end like that, cliffhanger or no. <br /><br />By the way, Matrimony, the whole theory post thing you mentioned and the lazier-than-usual admins angers me greatly. How dare you disrespect the admins like that... BEATING ME TO IT. But, as a newbie, I can't complain that the number of pending theories drops rapidly and the number of public theories doesn't seem to change AT ALL. I've sent in my fair share of well-written, well-thought-out theories, and just a day or two ago there was only one friggin theory posted in the past friggin week. Like I said though, I know my place as a newbie, and I will do my best to NOT complain and to NOT piss of the admins, no matter how much I'd like to. Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 16:41:51
subject: <b>Haven't we seen this theory before? or is it just me...</b>
body:
anyways,   balefire ain't gonna be it.  'Nuff said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 18:36:31
subject: <b>Wow I have never seen a theory with a zero percent approval</b>
body:
I am not going to repeat the obvious, but I do want to point out that it seems to me that not every age is the same. There are some differences even with in the wheel. Otherwise you would never have a completely whole prison. So in that sense there must be some amount of a linear universe in this wheel. Bad theory, but good to put a new twist on a theory that has been beaten to death<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda<br /><br />I would rather be feared then loved


created: 2002-06-17 19:02:50
subject: <b>Matimony Cauthon</b>
body:
Could it be that we have the same secret admirer?  2600 votes against?  Someone out there loves us.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 20:32:38
subject: <b>Vashti??????</b>
body:
Aviendha again?  I know that you and GG have been having problems of late.  Having said that how do you completley disregard GG's comments previous to yours?  Reread GG's comments posted prior to yours first.  Then reread yours.  The only thing I can think of is you posted your comments without reading GG's, otherwise you wouldn't have suggested what you did!  UNBELIEVABLE!!!!  You continue to amaze Vashti.<br /><br />Matrimony Cauthon had an idea and he went with it.  I don't believe it will come to Lanfear balefired back 4000 years.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 21:33:10
subject: <b>My, my, can't help ourselves, can we?</b>
body:
Pretty much I disregard what GG says, Columbo.  I've already proven him so inconsistent in how he portrays things and how he misuses quotes, that he doesn't have much hope for credibility.<br /><br />What do you have against Aviendha?  In the context of the theory, that a powerful female channeler presumably very trusted by Rand will try to balefire Lanfear, she makes sense as an optional candidate (which is all I presented her as).<br /><br />There aren't many.  Elayne, Egwene, Moiraine, Aviendha and Nynaeve. Moiraine ain't around, though we expect she will be.  It's REALLY not Elayne's or Egwene's or even Nynaeve's style.<br /><br />Aviendha is a warrior.  She's proven her ruthlessness as a channeler (in the lands of Seanchan), and she has reason for a personal grudge with Lanfear -- Lanfear tried to kill her SPECIFICALLY, remember? Last I knew, Aviendha isn't too forgiving.  <br /><br />Your knee-jerk responses, ever so eager to jump on the flame bandwagon, are getting in the way (as usual) of any modicum of intelligence you have.  Not everything has to be Stimulus-Response, y'know.


created: 2002-06-17 22:24:52
subject: <b>channeling a lost art?</b>
body:
I think you said something about Channeling becoming a lost art? If so I think that its a bit off. More channelers are being united that has been seen in years. Also the Rebel Tower is gathering in anyone who can learn, also the Ad'am users can all channel so if mat is able to break the fear/hate/misunderstanding then that opens the door for even more female channelers (isnt there more Sul'dam than the other?)  The Black Tower is growing stronger, and I hope, the Ajahs will be gone from the White Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 00:29:53
subject: <b>maybe i should start a fanclub...</b>
body:
I'll call it the 0% club.<br /><br />I don't know if anyone remembers, but I had a theory going a few months ago that had a 97% approval (the mat cauthon cannot channel theory).  Don't you just love the roller-coaster of life??<br /><br />Vashti- maybe things will eventually shift in your favor too.<br /><br />And to whoever has the trigger finger: <b> STOP IT RIGHT NOW </b><br /><br />I have seen quite a few theory ratings manipulated lately, and I don't like it at all.  It is abuse of the system.  If you don't like a theory, say so on the blackboard, but please don't manipulate the ratings.  <br /><br />Finally, as to someone's thought about channeling being on the rise.  Of course it is on the rise, but it is diffucult to predict what the next age will look like.  In the AoL, who could have predicted that saidin would have been tainted?  Anyway, I was just trying to draw a parallel to the ages of Hindu mythology (even though I didn't directly say it).  Obviously it didn't work.  <br /><br />Who was it that said you cannot be your own worst critic?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 00:47:36
subject: <b>Mr. Cauthon, I must commend you!</b>
body:
I've been a fan of your comments in the past, but I have to say that in my short stint on this site, I don't think I have ever seen a 0% approval rating.  (Or is that a 100% dissapproval rating! :0  )  I am impressed.  While I don't agree with your theory, I appreciate the effort.  The idea is interesting in theory, if unrealistic.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!!!!


created: 2002-06-18 01:21:08
subject: <b>Woohoo for Matrimony!</b>
body:
I just thought I would note, for posterity's sake, that 1% of voters support the theory as of this moment!  The ignomy of all those goose-eggs is gone...at least temporarily...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 02:50:52
subject: <b>I'm sorry, but...</b>
body:
I'm not trying to rag on anyone, or push them around, but can someone please tell me why the Wheel will be broken, or time become linear when (on the second response to this theory) I provided a direct Quote from <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> with him saying specifically that it won't?<br /><br />I'm just a bit confused by all this 'Breaking the Wheel' stuff. Why would RJ want to completley go against everything he has ever written, WoT wise?<br /><br />Oh, and MC, keep your points! Don't give them away! The Theory was posted and the Points are yours. <br /><br />One last thing: Whoever is manipulating the votes is a sick, sick individual. Seriously, it isn't funny, so stop it please.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:24:18
subject: <b>3000 yrs worth of balefire?</b>
body:
I dont think even the Choedenkal could do that.  Besides, <br /><br />WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SMOKING AND WHERE DO I GET IT?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:43:08
subject: <b>Agree about the Polls</b>
body:
It really is pretty lame that someone's doing it.  It kills any value they have.  So I'll add my voice to please stop.<br /><br />I disagree with the theory in general here, but it did spawn a theory that I posted (but didn't apparently make the cut!) *grin*<br /><br />To me, the value of most theories is the lines of thought they direct me along; even if they're wrong.  Matrimony's are usually pretty good at that.


created: 2002-06-18 17:27:08
subject: <b>cool theory, but...</b>
body:
Hey, I like it, except for that part about breaking the Wheel!<br /><br />Maybe Rand will finally get over his fear of killing a woman.  It's the ultimate sacrifice.  Rand will put aside his own moral beliefs, his integrity, and possibly even his sanity, to save the world.  He will be talked into overcoming his greatest hang-up (killing a woman) to save everyone.  Great character development.<br /><br />But wait!  If Lanfear never drilled the Bore, the Breaking of the World wouldn't have happened.  The Dragon wouldn't have killed his kin.  The world would still be a utopia, and Rand, Elayne, Mat, Aviendha, etc. would NEVER have been born.<br />Okay, nevermind.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-18 21:40:22
subject: <b>Re; Vashti</b>
body:
So you think Aviendha might have a motive. Okay.  Previously you had mentioned how Aviendha used Fire almost exclusivley as a weapon.  My question to you is this.  Why would Aviendha use Balefire when as you pointed out a while ago that she prefers to use fire?  Has Aviendha ever used Fire?  <br /><br />I disagree with this theory.  Thats why I disagree with your comments Vashti.  <br /><br />Also for someone who doesn't insult others in your posts,  you seem to be heading down the wrong road.  It doesn't look good Vashti.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 23:25:37
subject: <b>People Adapt</b>
body:
It's been getting shoved down Rand's throat (as well as ours) that he really needs to loosen up about women and danger.  Considering that he allowed Nynaeve to participate in the Cleansing of the Taint, and the dangers involved, I think he's slowly learning.  The Maidens are also fairly instrumental in this.<br /><br />I did not say Aviendha uses Fire exclusively; check your sources.  I said she used it more than any other main character female channeler.  Aviendha has the personal motive; she has warrior training and attitude; she has the strength; she has the trust of Rand...all these combine to make her a viable option to Moiraine WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE THEORY.  <br /><br />Mind you, I did not post the theory, I don't really agree with it, but if I'm thinking along those lines, I'll try to see how other pieces fit.  Within that context, Aviendha fits very well. Maybe as good, maybe better than Moiraine.


created: 2002-06-19 13:44:21
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
We disagree.  Alright.  I believe that Moraine will return and solve the problem.  As you say she is MIA at the moment.  We will wait and find out.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 03:41:45
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
Is Aviendha your favorite character, or one of your favorite characters? Cuz if she is, here's my little theory:<br /><br />You are a pyro, and you want your favorite character to be like you, so you continually suggest that Aviendha likes fire.<br /><br />Hmmmm... I ought to submit this... it's way better than most of the theories posted lately.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 12:56:57
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
I said it once.  Others have repeated my words often. I believe I clarified being misquoted twice.<br /><br />Like her? Eh.  I like Min better, and that's just among Rand's wimmen.  I like Graendal a LOT better, as well as Semirhage. I like Berelain better, and Suiane and Leanne.  Morgase is an idiot, so not her.  Birgitte is pretty cool, as is Tenobia.  Most of the Aiel channelers seem cooler, most of the Aes Sedai aren't.  Egwene is a twit and I like Faile better than Nynaeve, if that gives you any indication of my regard for Nynaeve. (ugh).<br /><br />So...just among female characters, I'd pretty much place her in the middle.  I guess I'd like her more if there was more written about her -- I really liked her when we first saw her, but the way Jordan's treated her since has dropped her back in the pack.


created: 2002-06-25 22:59:49
subject: <b>Cair alJinn - Correction</b>
body:
Just to correct you. The man has to control only when the circle or link goes above 13 channelers. Look at the end of Winter's Heart at the circles there, the women were directing most of the channelling. Especially with Narishma and Callendor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 19:30:32
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
I think if that were true the woman would be egwene elyne or Nynve cuz there all stronger then hyer  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-27 05:03:17
subject: <b>Balefire; It's not for what has already happened.</b>
body:
OK so your the Dragon Reborn and you have just Balefired your first Forsaken out of the pattern and your all broken up about it. <br /><br />Never fear a whacked theory is here.<br /><br />Harumph<br /><br />OH when you use Balefire against time, this does not mean that your have removed the past in the normal and understood sense. The wheel turns....<br /><br />If you remove a person with balefire everything that they did in the past still exists right up to the moment they are removed from the pattern. Then the wheel turns and the next time around that person does not exist.<br /><br />example: Lanfear gets balefired. This does not mean that the Bore doesn't get drilled, but the next time around it's somebody else doing the drilling instead. The wheel isn't that easily disturbed, unless you are the Dragon.<br /><br />This would be a very unpleasant thought for the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-02-18 18:27:15
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
Really that could be possible but I doubt it<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Just because to me, it doesn't seem something like RJ:J would do. And evem of it DOES happen...I think that Rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> WOULD be able to kill Lanfear<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> anyways, woman<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> or not;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />. Because after all, as far as Rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> knows, Lanfear killed Moiraine<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />...so he isn't too happy about that<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> and also, when it happened, Rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> blamed himself for Moiraine's<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> death...saying that she died because he couldn't bring himself to kill a woman<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> because he was too weak<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />. Now Rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> is all hard and ruthless<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> so he wouldn't have a hard time killing a woman.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> But then of course, Cadsuane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> is going to make him learn to cry again isn't she? And that will soften him up a bit<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" />...but I still think that Rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> will be able to kill Lanfear because, after all SHE wanted to kill HIM and she 'killed' Moiraine<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> as well...so he's going to want a bit of revenge I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aquaria<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 18:53:32
subject: <b>Choke on this</b>
body:
IF 3000 years could be eliminated by balefiring lanfear, A break in time would occur a never ending loop would start. Because if lanfear was balefired back 3000 years she would never have been around to be balefired at The last battle. Rand never would have born to balefire her. Think about it balefire shouldn't work at all. If the person is removed from the pattern a certain distance back wouldn't that mean that they weren't around to be balefired? Never ending loop would occur. Balefire was a bad idea RJ never should have included it. CHOKE ON THAT


created: 2003-02-28 11:01:43
subject: <b>The Thinker is wrong.</b>
body:
If you look at the description of the effects that Balefire has, you will notice that the location of the person does not change upon Balefire. Balefire only causes those things that the person balefired did in the burnt out interval to undo themselves, the people still have the memory of the first version. There is no paradox in Balefire. Consider burning a thread (using the WoT metaphor) - in a fabric, destroying one thread will alter the patterns of the other threads, but the location in which it ends (the point of the weaving) will stay the same. The lost thread will only change the past events, not the locations of the threads.<br /><br />Things would be different if you could balefire your own mother to before you were conceived, since the conception would never have occurred, and so you would no longer exist. This is equivalent to the case when Rahvin was balefired, and those who were killed were brought back to life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 11:56:43
subject: <b>ABsoLUtelY NoT</b>
body:
<br /><br />Excuse me but if you remember the strongest balefire Rand ever made was on Rahvin which, by the way, only went back 30 minutes. If the sa'angreal multiplies Rand's strength 100 fold he would only send the pattern back maybe a week. Even if he linked to Nynaeve. they would still just go back a week and a half. so there.


created: 2005-04-17 21:33:37
subject: <b>somehow i doubt it</b>
body:
although i cant find much wrong with your reasoning and almost agree with it, i highly doubt its gonna happen. for one thing, at the beginning and end of each book (or at least most of them, im not sure all), it has some weird quote and then at the end says some weird name and then &quot;the Fourth Age.&quot; this implies that there is in fact a fourth age, which almost definitely makes a necessity of a fifth age also. otherwise it wouldnt be the fourth age, it wouldnt be an age at all since since it spans all eternity. therefore, the wheel of time will apparently still be intact.<br /><br />not exactly hard evidence, but its good enough for me.


created: 2006-05-19 13:34:45
subject: <b>this wont work because every one will die</b>
body:
im not sure what book it is from but moirane or someone is talking to rand about balefire saying that even the forsaken in the age of legends feared to use it. That some powerful dude had balefired most of a city and the pattern had nearly undone itself and unravled. if rands balefired lanfear back over 3,000 tears not only would there be huge ripples because of random thisgs she hasnt done the bore would never have been drilled the do never have been needed to locked up again no war of power no taint on saidin no end to the age of legends the ripples would be so uberaciously huge every one would cease to exist and the pattern would unravel or become twisted and destorted trying to work itself out which would take thousands of years


created: 2009-06-17 19:39:24
subject: <b>moraine is a bad ass</b>
body:
moraine ,is pretty strong already.She could use a smaller device probably,that thing could burn a hole through the world.<br />


created: 2002-06-18 09:50:46
subject: <b>Could this explain Graendal's exclamation?</b>
body:
<i>Winter's Heart</i>, Chapter 13 <i>Wonderful News</i>. Page 317 in the Orbit Hardback. Cyndane reveals to Demandred, Graendal, Aran'gar and Osan'gar that Rand has the Choedan Kal keys.<br /><br /><blockquote>&quot;And you've just been hoping to blunder into him!&quot; she [Graendal] screamed at Demandred. &quot;Hoping someone will find him for you! Fool! Fool!&quot;</blockquote><br /><br />Wherever Demandred is, this proves that he is not with Rand at the moment, but hopes to &quot;blunder into him&quot; and that &quot;someone will find [Rand] for [Demandred]&quot;. Not Taim then, but we knew that already. Perrin has come to Masema and promised to bring him to Rand. As you say, &quot;Have I not done well, Great Lord&quot; said by someone who was told to &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; points to someone causing chaos, which does sound like Masema to me. However, I think that if Masema is connected with Demandred then he is a pawn rather than Demandred himself.<br /><br />My reasoning is that when Perrin came to take Masema to Rand, Masema was indignant at the thought of the One Power being used, as it was blasphemy against the Light or some such nonsense. Masema makes Perrin ride for months to get to Rand rather than use a gateway. Demandred would be completely stupid to do that. Why delay yourself by about two months? It's quite obviously not to keep up the disguise of the Prophet, because later on he allows a &quot;dispensation&quot; for Perrin to use gateways to find Faile, on the grounds that &quot;<i>He</i> [the Lord Dragon] would be grieved if harm came to your wife.&quot; He even says he will come with him, going through the gateway himself. If Masema's refusal to allow the Power to be used for transport was just a screen for Demandred to keep up the pretense of being the Prophet, he would never have refused it's use to get to Rand, but allowed it to find Faile. If Masema were Demandred, he could have easily allowed a similar &quot;dispensation&quot; to get to Rand without breaking his cover, on the grounds that Rand would also be displeased if Masema did not come promptly, and that pleasing the Lord Dragon was more important than avoiding blasphemy - everyone would have bought it, and he's so powerful that no-one can gainsay him anyway. It seems likely that, as it was implied that Perrin thought, Masema agreeing to the Travelling was <i>ta'veren</i> twisting chance and people saying unlikely things.<br /><br />Conclusion: Masema might well be Demandred's proxy in the South, but not Demandred himself. I don't think there can be a Masemadred. However, I like the idea very much, so if someone can find a way round what I've just said, please do. Masemadred would be a very cool twist.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:06:16
subject: <b>Well now...</b>
body:
This is a very, very interesting theory. I have to say that it is very plausable. It also would fit right in with RJ's style. After reading this there were only two groups that fit the quotes. As stated Masaema and the Dragonsworn and the Seanchan. I throw them out there just as an alternate possibility. We already know that the High Lady Suroth is a Darkfriend. That was proven in TGH when Liandrin brought Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve through the Ways and tried to deliver them to Suroth. Now since Suroth is a Darkfriend, and she has arguably the strongest army in Randland, wouldn't make sense that Damandred might be with them. The Seancahn are &quot;carving out&quot; large section of the south. They control Tarabon, the Almoth Plain, most of the Sea Folk Isles (including Tremelking), large portions of Amadicia and Altara and a small portion of Illian. All of those are south of Arad Doman and could fit the discription. As we have seen time and again the Seanchan are great at &quot;carving out&quot;. <br /><br />Now that Tuon and the Halene have come Suroth is not in sole control. But since Tuon has dissapeared or been kidnapped, do you think that Suroth will catch the blame and maybe that will be the end of her. One can hope <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:19:58
subject: <b>Couple of things to note though...</b>
body:
First: I sent in a theory stating this a year ago and it never got posted.  But that's okay, I'm not bitter.<br /><br />I too believe Demandred to be mixxed up with the Dragonsworn for several reasons.  One, it does fit all of the qualifications that were mentioned (proxies, to the south, etc.).  Two, the Dragonsworn are the only major group/faction that are not &quot;covered&quot; or influenced by the Forsaken.  Three, Taimandred at times seemed a little to obvious for it to be true, plus there was a forsaken already mixxed in with the Black Tower.  Four, following these same lines, there is already a Forsaken amongst the Seanchan.  I don't remember which one of them it is, but I know they have taken the place of one Tuon's most trusted and close advisors.  The Seanchan are therefor ruled out.<br /><br />I think though that if anything, Masema has been &quot;compulsioned&quot; if that's a word, which could be why he acting like he is, or one of the causes of his insanity.  Where Demandred stays when he's not giving Masema his treatments, is a mystery to be solved another time.<br /><br />Mateo - Seeker of Minute Hints


created: 2002-06-18 10:20:07
subject: <b>perhaps...</b>
body:
I think that the truth behind this mystery lies wholly within RJ's accenting the &quot;friends&quot;.  I cannot come up with any good theories though, but RJ definately accented on purpose.  I had also gone so far as to consider Demandred being in the Fortress of Light (till it got raped...) or him being in Tear (though surely Rand would have noticed his presence).<br />I do agree that Masema might very well be Demandred's proxy, but if Demandred is behind Masema, who are his &quot;friends&quot;?  Not dragonsworn i think.<br />Also, he is almost certainly not with the Seanchan as suggested.  It is made clear that the reason Semirhage had difficulty attending Forsaken meetings is due to her placement in the world, and many speculate that Semirhage is with the Seanchan.  I doubt she and Demandred would work together even if their supposed tryst (tFoH) still existed.<br />So, finally, I say this is a tough one, which is why noone here agrees on anything or can support anything with more than a scrap of evidence.  Let us hope that some light is shed in book 10, because this particular question has been in my mind for several months.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:33:30
subject: <b>I think you have something there......</b>
body:
I never thought that Masema would actually do stuff like that, he'd be most anxious to get to the DR like in tDR. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Masema is acutally Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 10:41:00
subject: <b>Whitecloaks are there, too</b>
body:
Going back to TDR, Sammy meets with the WC badguy Carridin and instructs him send armies into the area south of Arad Doman and basically cause a lot of trouble and tell people they are with Masema. So, I have kinda wondered how much of the beating people up and stealing all their belongings is actually Masema's men, and how much is being done by whitecloaks.<br /><br />Also, when Sammy comments to Graendal that Demandred and his freinds had better not interefer with his plans, I think he may be refering to his plans with the WC's, not necessarily with his plans in Illian. <br /><br />I do not think Masema is Demendred. Perrin smells just how crazy Masema is, and I don't think Demmy is crazy. He has the protection from the DO. He may be a proxy. I almost think all the badguy-non forsaken are his proxies.<br /><br />One note of irony: What if Demmy suggested he was doing good by not doing anything at all? The orders were to &quot;let the Lord of Caos rule.&quot; Perhaps all that Demmy did was stand back and let Rand run wild. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace, Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 12:04:11
subject: <b>Wow!</b>
body:
This is one of the best theories we've had in quite a while. <br />I don't think Demmy IS Masema but Masema MIGHT be under Demmy's control.<br />I've never bought the Taimadred theory either....especially since we know that Dashiva was Osan'gar....why would the DO waste TWO of his 'Chosen' on watching Rand.....Taim could of course still be a DF(and probably is IMHO) but I don't think he's Demmy.<br />Of course that still leaves the question of where Demmy is when he's not controlling his proxy/ies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 12:12:49
subject: <b>A way around Eyeless Myrddraal's comment</b>
body:
The traveling idea makes a good point, but Demandred doesn't want a confrontation with Rand. Demandred was TOLD to 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' not 'hunt down and kill the Dragon Reborn.' So taking the long way to Rand would delay that confrontation. Maybe Demandred doesn't trust himself to come near Rand, because his hatred for Lews Therin Telamon might overcome his orders from the DO.<br /><br />Anyways, Eyeless Myrddraal asked for a way around his counterpoint, so there you go. As for my opinion on this theory... interesting. There's a lot of interesting opinions on Demandred. Weiramon, Eamon Valda, Taim (though everyone SHOULD know by now that Taim isn't Demandred,) and now Masema. Hmmmmmm... I'll say this just to annoy the heck out of all of you... Read And Find Out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 14:11:26
subject: <b>Hrm...</b>
body:
I like this theory but I somehow have a really hard time seeing Demandred preaching anything good about his hated Lews Therin (Rand). This leads me to believe that Masema isnt Demandred though Masema could be under his control. Demandred seems the type who would try and sully Lews Therin's name by getting someone to preach his coming will commiting the worst atroicites imaginable.


created: 2002-06-18 14:56:05
subject: <b>This theory does not tell you who Demmy is, and it doesn't factor the Seanchan</b>
body:
Many people think that Sammael's comment about proxies (to the south of Graendal's palace in Arad Doman) indicates that Sammael knows the identity of Demandred. But this is not at all the case. Later, In To Understand a Message Sammael says to Graendal, &quot;I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding?&quot;<br /><br />Basically, Sammael does not know the identitiy of Demandred. He might know what Demmy is up to, but he has no idea of who Demmy is? Basically, Sammael's quote about proxies is useless in trying to figure out who Demandred is. Sammael didn't know himself. And Why? Because Demandred is fond of using proxies. This seems to support the old theory that Demandred is just himself.<br /><br />But the Seanchan are also an important factor, and it could be the Seanchan Sammael was referring to.<br /><br />The Seanchan were high in activity south of Arad Doman, and as we have seen, they have been heading directly for Illian.<br /><br />Seanchan is not a small country, it is a complete continent. Plus, the brunt of the Seanchan forces are in two places: Seanchan and the Westlands.  So, I think it is quite possible 2 forsaken were involved with the Seanchan.<br /><br />Semiranath just recently arrived in the westlands. She had to remain in Seanchan and develop herself with Tuon for some time.<br />Even if Tuon had been at Falme, Semirhage would have had her time severely restricted as Tuon's truth speaker.<br /><br />So who was to direct the forces in the Westlands? I believe it was Demandred. It makes sense that Semi and Demmy would have at least worked in a loose alliance, especially since they had the pact not to kill each other.<br /><br />Demandred has a complex role, I think, and I don't think he is posing as anyone in particular.  Demandred organized much of the chaos that allowed for the Seanchan invasion to come so quickly. He helped keep the Tarboners and Arad people at war, he helped instigate the Prophet, and he helped in removing Pedron Niall and the Whitecloaks.<br /><br />This is what I think.<br /><br />I personally, think that the one forsaken in one country formula just doesn't work with the Seanchan, especially since Semirhage had so many demands placed on her time (for example, all the meetings she was missing).<br />Plus, Semirhage is not a general (at least I don't think she was). Demandred could fill in the generalling. Seanchan is just too big too wield by one forsaken alone, and I think we will soon see how big a force it really is.<br /><br />As for the ending of LoC, when Demandred said, &quot;Aren't you pleased&quot; to the Great One, I think he may have been referring to the events that were taking place with the Seanchan invasion, as well as with the chaos that was seeded by Dumai's Wells (Demmy afterall did have a command of many of the asha'man there).<br /><br />So, what I personally think, is that Demmy is involved with Seanchan, and that is one of the reasons RJ has kept it a mystery so long. He wants to suprise us. And it could be a real surprise, because the Seanchan haven't become that involved in the story yet. But with the Tuon, Mat crossover, I think we will be getting more and more hints.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 15:25:42
subject: <b>Might not be much, but...</b>
body:
Well, this might not be much, but remember that, of late, Masema also seems not to recognize his own name...at least, when Perrin calls him that way, Masema complains that the Prophet doesn't need a name... ok, Masema could just be mad, or it might be that he just thinks if he were to be called with that name too often, he might slip...


created: 2002-06-18 16:41:31
subject: <b>dang, mat...</b>
body:
How many times have you read the series? You're a human friggin Wot encyclopedia, and I mean that as a compliment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 16:42:14
subject: <b>I LOVE IT!!</b>
body:
To me, this is the best theory on Demandred. It makes sense. If had to place a bet on which Demandred-theory was correct, my money would go on this one! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 18:42:35
subject: <b>Closeminded.</b>
body:
Why is every so set on the thought that Demandred is in Randland?  There are three other lands that haven't been gone over much at all.  Those being Shara, Seachan, and the Land of the Madmen.  Now its not likely that Demandred is in LotM, but he could be in Shara or Seachan easily manipulating the rulers there.  Hell he could already be amassing a massive army of Shara forces to crush Rand at the Last Battle.


created: 2002-06-18 20:28:57
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
I don't remember very well how this works, but couldn't Masema/Demandred not want to use gateways because it would cause a resonance and they would learn that he could channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I the shadow of time or is time a figment of my imagination.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Never underestimate human stupidity.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 20:48:32
subject: <b>Not Masema - hes mad!</b>
body:
Perrin has smelled Masema, and he is definately mad. Dmndrd is full of hate, but as he has his black cord he aint mad.<br /><br />And Masema went mad back in tGH, in the camp of the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 21:35:31
subject: <b>Yeah, I think you're on the right track.</b>
body:
I don't think he's Masema himself, but..... well, Columbo and I are putting something together <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Should be good for some laughs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-18 21:38:34
subject: <b>Its just no possible...</b>
body:
Perrin can tell who a person is by the way they smell, correct? Yes, Masema smelled quite mad but each person would still have the same general smell. In addition Demandred would have to look somewhat like Masema in order to masqurade as him from day to day. It would be risky for him to use the One Power to completly change his apperance i.e. someone could touch him. I don't think Demandred would take that risk. He may have a hand in what he does, compulsion or something along those lines which i tend to lean towards. Personally I don't think we've been intoduced to who Demandred is and if we have it will be someone we would least of all expect.


created: 2002-06-18 22:12:27
subject: <b>Almost spilled the beans GG</b>
body:
Since GG wants to hold onto what we have re: Demandred and Masema, then I will only share some with you all.  <br /><br />First Masema is not capable of creating what he has on his own.  Masema's role in Shienar ( where everyman is in the army) was to watch a gate.  Also some may say he accomplished this in the name of the Dragon reborn,  also too big even in the Name of the Dragon.<br /><br />Second.  We see all the signs of a Forsaken present.  Mobs,  Riots,  Murders,  burning villages, raping and pillaging etc. etc.<br /><br />If you recall Tear and Illian when Forsaken where present they showed the same signs that where visible to Lan and Moraine.<br /><br />The rest will have to wait for GG to share with you.<br /><br />I also don't believe Masema is Demandred.  Is he present?  Maybe GG will share with us?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 02:14:55
subject: <b>Inner thoughts.</b>
body:
If we have been introduced to Demandred in disguise, and i think we have, it must be a character whose inner thoughts have not been revealed by RJ.  That is the key to the puzzle.  Masema is among the group of characters who fits in the parameters.<br /><br />There are few others who immediately come to mind;  Weiramon, Masema, Dobraine, Taim.  I am sure there are others.  Masema though seems a pawn or bishop rather than the person moving the pieces.  So my vote is that he is not Demandred.<br /><br />More outer thoughts to come on inner thoughts<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 03:06:04
subject: <b>OMG</b>
body:
Mother's Milk in a Cup! A Theory that makes sense! My faith in humanity has been restored. I can definately see some connection to the Forsaken with the Dragonsworn. After all, evil takes many forms, what better way to hurt Rand's reputation than by doing evil acts in his name? It a sweet idea and I approve. I never really saw Taim as Demandred and this makes more sense in my opinion. As for Masema being Demandred, well, maybe but I doubt it. There would be too many inconsistencies. Demandred would have had to use compulsion on all the Shienarans cause they couldnt talk about the past anymore and it would be impossible (almost) to bluff past anyone who had met Masema without Compulsion (like the ta'veren or Two Rivers girls).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 08:57:09
subject: <b>A few more problems</b>
body:
Demandred is a complex individual.<br /><br />It may very well be that Demandred is using Masema, but I do not think it is prudent to confine him to Masema.  For example, We have positive proof that Demmy is working with the Black Tower, we know that he had several Asha'men in there.  <br /><br />As I mentioned earlier, that quote about proxies isn't very useful.  About the only thing it tells us is that Demmy is fond of using proxies, and that Sammael interpreted a certain group that was carving out territory to be under Demandred.<br /><br />The proxy quote should tell us immediately that Demmy is NOT masema.  Demandred may be involved with Masema, currently, but I do not think Masema is his sole domain.  As I said earlier, we know that Demmy was also involved with the black Tower.<br /><br />Additionally, the quote seemed to indicate that the group was carving out territory.  The only groups that really fit this are the Seanchan and the Dragonsworn.  The Ashamen and the White Cloaks weren't really actively carving out territory.<br /><br />Sammael was also relatively afraid of Demmy's group (or what he thought was Demmy).  Why would Sammael be that afraid of the Dragonsworn?  Sammael still had a very strong Illian army, and if he really wanted to, he could have immediately ended the threat of Masema, by assasinating Masema himself.<br /><br />But the Seanchan are a different story because of damane.  Sammael has great reason to fear them.  They are not something he can stop by himself, or with his army.  Plus, they were headed towards Illian, unlike the Dragonsworn.<br /><br />For those of you who think that Demandred was supposed to keep an eye on Rand, it could have been militarily.  Demmy might not have been near Rand physically, but he could have been watching his troops.  Plus, the quote about bumping into Rand, might not apply to Demandred himself, it could apply to Demmy's army, or to one of his proxies.<br /><br />Overall, I think it is reasonable to suspect Demmy is involved with the Dragonsworn, but I think it is not logical to assume Demmy is Masema, or that he is soley working with the Dragonsworn.<br /><br />If there was anybody that I think Sammael was referring to in his proxy quote, it was the Seanchan.  But it could have been that Sammael was mistaken and misinterpretated what he saw.<br />And what have we seen lately?  Masema was actually meeting with the Seanchan.  To me, this seems that Demmy might be influencing both groups.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 10:42:29
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Nice having so much feedback on a couple of thoughts.<br /><br />I agree that Big D is likely NOT Masema, but I don't think he is meddling with the Sanchean.<br /><ul><br /><li>Another Forsaken (I can't remember who, damn me!) is already in a high Position in the Sanchean Empire - and i don't think she/he will tolerate another Choosen;</li><br /><li>The Dragonsworn ARE a vital Danger even to Illian - think what a riot and/or civil war will do...</li><br /><li>The Fact that D has spies in the Black Tower doesn't imply that he can't be with the Dragonsworn (Every Forsaken has two or three different points of Focus</li><br /><br /></ul>


created: 2002-06-19 12:21:32
subject: <b>Yes, Masema is letting Chaos rule</b>
body:
but he is also very mad, and there are people all over the place who are abandoning their old ways because Rand has proclaimed himself and they think they should. This doesn't mean Masema is a &quot;friend&quot; of Demmy, and it doesn't mean he isn't.<br /><br />To discount Matrimony, I had to review the chain of events. sammy's comments were made in The Lord of Chaos, and the Seanchan didn't attack Amadacia until A Crown of Swords. Oh... that was just one book later, and even though it doesn't happen until half-way through that book, chronologically, it could have happened within days of Sammy's statement. So Mat does have a valid point. (and I was trying to find a way to discreadit it, can you ever forgive me? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ) As I stated earlier, Sammy's &quot;plans&quot; could have included plans he had with Carridin from the Whitecloaks. The statement doesn't necessarily have to refer to the Seanchan attacking Illian. (Sammy was toast before they could have gotten that far.) So, yes, Matrimony may be on to something there. Seachan is huge. Futhermore, that would put the Seanchan that much closer to the areas Sammy wants to control. He did try to make a pact with Rand stating he wanted the &quot;split&quot; Randland between them, given the southwest prtion of the continent to himself.<br /><br />OTOH, they already have accomplished generals, so Semirage doesn't necessarily need to have him around to fight her battles. With damane, they are quite the force. And don't forget Liandrin.<br /><br />Grandeal has already gone to Shara and killed their rulers, plunging that area into chaos, but only in a ploy to make Demmy think she was involved there. I think this discounts Shara as a hiding place for Demmy. And the Land of Madmen is out of the question. Nothing else has happened there, and RJ has said it's possible nothing will happen there.<br /><br />What we know of Demmy is that he uses proxies, he is willing to gamble, he was suppose to be watching Rand (which Masema couldn't do) and he was a general who knew LTT very well, and could possibly try to predict what and where Rand would do/be next.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 12:38:24
subject: <b>I dont think hes Masema</b>
body:
Masema seems to be too intent on his feelings to be Damandred. He could have been compulsed to be even more intent, he was already a bit crazy for Rand and I don't think that it would take much if anything to make him go as fanatic as he is at the moment. I've been wondering if he was with Masema as a close hand or if he was in with the Whitecloaks. Whitecloaks hate Aes Sedai and I don't think Demandred likes them very much, besides where better to hide than a place where Aes Sedai are hated and Al'Thor feared?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 14:38:58
subject: <b>I agree with Matrimony...</b>
body:
In fact I posted the following Theory to the Post a few weeks ago but it never got posted. I can't figure out why...<br /><br />Here are my suspicions for Demandred's location and identity.<br /><br />First it was Demandred's job was to spy on Rand, but he wasn't Taim, how could he have been close to Rand enough to spy. Well, actually we don't know what methods Dem was using to spy on Rand. If Dashiva/Osan'gar was following Rand's day-to-day movement wouldn't it stand to reason that the general would be following his troop movements and his direction of conquest? Why would the DO have two Forsaken watching Rand in day-to-day encounters? Twice the chance of getting caught and no additional utility. There were two because Rand has two main aspects to his life: his personal interactions and his army interactions. I think that Dashiva was watching the personal and Demandred was in charge of monitoring troop movements, etc. He could do that through two main methods. One, the Black Tower soldiers that Rand would call upon to do battle and two&#8230;being in charge of Rand's opponents. <br /><br />This leads into the next piece of evidence.<br /><br />Second, one of the most important pieces of evidence for the location of Demandred came from Sammael in LoC. Sammael is in Graendal's palace in Arad Domon when this passage comes up:<br /><br />&quot;You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to.&quot; Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. 'Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans.&quot; Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. &quot;So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it.&quot;<br /><br />Let's work through this paragraph one phrase at a time. First of all we know that Graendal is the real ruler in Arad Domon. To the south of her is Falme, Tarabon and the whole west coast of Randland. At the time the only group operating in that sphere is the Seanchan. <br /><br />Now if Demandred likes using proxies then it isn't likely that he would be in any position of prominence among them but since we do know that the leader of the Return, Suroth, is a DF then we can make a good assumption of who the proxy is. <br /><br />So that might account for him. Who are the friends Sammael is referring to then? Well it can't mean the Ash'aman because the next thing Sammael thinks is &quot;Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there.&quot; Well nothing has happened to direct Rand towards attacking the Black Tower and nothing ever could happen so that obviously isn't it. Rumors about the Seanchan spreading were increasing though and five days before Rand attacked Illian the Seanchan took Ebou Dar. Before that they had captured Amadacia. <br /><br />Now the logical path for the Seanchan would be to continue their swath along the southern coast right through Illian. Which could be why Sammael demanded that they &quot;steer clear&quot; of him. <br /><br />This whole paragraph doesn't apply at all to the Black Tower though because the Ash'aman aren't trying to &quot;carve out&quot; a kingdom or anything else. The only group that is doing that is the Seanchan.<br /><br />It makes sense, actually when you realize that the only major group without a Forsaken presence is the Seanchan. Oh, I know, they have Semhirage now, but up until WH she was in Seandar. It would be strange to assume that no one would snatch up someone as powerful as Suroth when Ishmael died in tDR. That is assuming Ishy was the one controlling her before. Demandred is a general though and he needs an army. His army could keep close tabs on Rand because Rand would be forced to follow him and block his strikes. He also could work through Taim (another proxy) and the Black Tower to keep an eye on troop movement since Rand is training the Ash'aman to be weapons.<br /><br />Whatta ya think?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 17:23:39
subject: <b>For the Most part, Good Reasoning, But...</b>
body:
Ciel, there's a few holes you need to fill.<br /><br />1.  The White Cloaks, last we saw them for any meta-activity, were trying to create a kingdom (of course, than Niall was assassinated, soooo....)<br /><br />2.  The Aiel, any group, are a power group with whom we have not seen a Forsaken.  We've seen Forsaken NEAR them, but Kadere and his troupe actually met up with Rand, I believe.  And Sammael and Graendal only fooled Sevanna, and are not a part of her group.  <br /><br />This doesn't mean nobody is, but the Aiel are typically free of Forsaken domination -- unless one of the very few of whom we don't know are with them (Cyndane, Moghedien currently, Demandred -- and please, I'm not saying they're with them!  We just don't have them pinned down anymore or at all).  <br /><br />Then, of course, there's Asmodean.  Is he permanently gone? He LIKELY was killed by Balefire, but if he wasn't...well, we know it's possible to come back from death.  Whether one needs the intercession of the DO, or the Finns, remains to be seen.  He could be a fascinating player -- if he was fried and not balefired.<br /><br />For instance...*grinning*...wouldn't it be funny if Asmodean, the ultimate musician, found the Song?


created: 2002-06-19 18:43:14
subject: <b>Personally...</b>
body:
I've always believed that Demandred has been controlling the Dragonswrorn. He's not Masema, Masema's just the 'proxy'. After all, what better way to get back at Lews Therin, albeit the new version, than slander his good name. Always bear in mind that Demmy was just that one step behind LTT and it's bound to reflect in what he does. It's a perfect revenge, if you ask me...<br /><br />As to exactly WHO Demandred is, I'm still out on that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 22:02:24
subject: <b>Nah...The dragonsworn thing is over-analyzed.</b>
body:
Good theory to a point but remember that Masema isnt telling his folks to rob, rape and pillage folks.  He has just created an atmosphere where when these things happen all his followers have to say is that the victims were darkfriends and Masema wont punish them.  Masema actually has the right idea (if not overzealously).  I think this is just a case of mob mentality.  Dragonsworn arent under Forsaken control.<br /><br />The seanchan idea makes the most sense.  I agree all the way that Suroth is Demmys pawn and he is using her and her Hellene to create chaos.  This explains the &quot;blundering into&quot; sentence too.  If he keeps pushing with his army eventually he knows Rand has to fight his proxies.  What he cant understand is why it hasnt happened sooner.  It explains Sammaels words and reactions as well.<br /><br />Nay on the Dragonsworn! Yay on the Seanchan.  Oh one more thing...Demmy is orchestrating a bunch of stuff...I dont think he has time to hide and act as someone else close to Rand.  He is too busy and he can keep an eye on Rand in other ways.


created: 2002-06-20 05:53:12
subject: <b>Let me think about it for a sec...</b>
body:
NO! Masema is NOT Demandred! Reasons?<br /><br />1) Masema is insane. Perrin even smells it.<br /><br />2) Masema really does revere the Dragon Reborn, more than life itself; that's why he named himself 'the Prophet' in the first place. He's preaching of Rand's greatness. It's not ENTIRELY his fault (ok, so it is, but he doesn't want to wreak havoc) that the Dragonsworn burn houses and rob/attack/kill people. <br /><br />3) Demandred has too much hate for Lews Therin to say anything good about him.<br /><br />&amp; there's plenty of other reasons, too. No, Demandred is NOT Masema. Jeesh, even the Taim theory had less holes than this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Jahar Narishma... the walking weapon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Forever hating AoC scum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> May my sword remain at the throat of idiots like the AoC <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> My path is that of evil... evil is my path. Watch my footsteps, do not follow, death is the price <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 14:28:33
subject: <b>To fill some holes then...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b><br />1. The White Cloaks, last we saw them for any meta-activity, were trying to create a kingdom (of course, than Niall was assassinated, soooo....)<br /></b></font><br />Of course while they were trying to build a kingdom they were being led by a known &quot;Lightfriend&quot; (Niall) who was being controlled slightly by a demented enemy of the Dark (Fain). Then Niall's attempts to create a kingdom were ended by the Seanchan led by a know Darkfirend (Suroth). I would thihnk that would cast serious doubt on the Whitecloaks having Forsaken presence. Especially since we only have one Forsaken unaccounted for. Dem has to be with one or the other.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>2. The Aiel, any group, are a power group with whom we have not seen a Forsaken. We've seen Forsaken NEAR them, but Kadere and his troupe actually met up with Rand, I believe. And Sammael and Graendal only fooled Sevanna, and are not a part of her group. <br /><br />This doesn't mean nobody is, but the Aiel are typically free of Forsaken domination -- unless one of the very few of whom we don't know are with them (Cyndane, Moghedien currently, Demandred -- and please, I'm not saying they're with them! We just don't have them pinned down anymore or at all). <br /></b></font><br /><br />Actually the Forsaken have been manipulating the Aiel since tSR. Asmodean was manipulating Couladin, Sammael was pulling Melindrha's (sp?) strings. I'm sure there are others. The problem with the Aiel is that we don't have any DFs high up to help Forsaken position themselves and they have such a rigid society structure it would be suspicious for them to try to enter using Compulsion. Look at how Lanfera and Asmodean had to get in. Even Rand was able to pick up on the guise and he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.<br /><br />The other issue is that when the Forsaken got free the Aiel were not an issue at all. They only became one when Rand entered the waste and now Rand has control of the bulk of them. The only time Sevanna et al were all together they were being manipulated by Sammael and Graendal and then they were scattered. Now there isn't a group of over 20,000 Shaido anywhere. They could have been a power group but now they are just a minor annoyance.<br /><br />Last time we saw Cyndane she was in the borderlands (I'm pretty sure). I'm not sure about Moggy but it seems Moridin has her and Cyndane running around for him (ie, in Ebou Dar, in Arad Domon...). I think Cyndane will end up in the borderlands but I don't know where Moggy will go. <br /><br />I just think there is too big a gap in the spread of Forsaken right now and the fact that no one was controlling Suroth and the Return for 5 books is too much to believe.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Then, of course, there's Asmodean. Is he permanently gone? He LIKELY was killed by Balefire, but if he wasn't...well, we know it's possible to come back from death. Whether one needs the intercession of the DO, or the Finns, remains to be seen. He could be a fascinating player -- if he was fried and not balefired.<br /><br />For instance...*grinning*...wouldn't it be funny if Asmodean, the ultimate musician, found the Song?<br /></b></font><br /><br />I keep thinking that the only reason Asmodean wasn't resurrected and mindtrapped is because someone balefired him. It would be funny to have him show up again. But then, that would mean RJ *still* hasn't killed any major characters associated with the Light.<br /><br />Asmodean would know the Song, wouldn't he? I mean the Song was just the songs they sung in the AoL... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 15:17:56
subject: <b>Hey Baerlon Maid.....</b>
body:
When disregarding the whitecloaks as a possibility you failed to question the questioners.  Remember them.  They are apart of the Whitecloaks.  If I where a forsaken hiding in the Whitecloaks gang I would definatley use the guise of a questioner.  No one questions a questioners.  Remember when Geofram Bornhald was sent to Falme.  On his way he ran into the questioners murdering entire villages.  To make a long story short, just before Geofram dies in battle he sends Child Byar to return to Niall with a letter Re; The questioners doings in Tarabon and Almoth Plain.  Geofram seems to think that Niall has no knowledge of the questioners purpose and seems to think it of grave importance that Niall knows ASAP.  Remember Carridon ( questioner ). You can hide in the Questioners gang because no one dares pay any attention to them for fear of being put to the question.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 22:53:06
subject: <b>Yes-this is why he is wary of one power usage</b>
body:
Masema never wants anyone to use the One Power around himbecause itmight resonate and give aclue to his identity. This would only be if there was a Masemadred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 17:11:02
subject: <b>I think so...</b>
body:
I was thinking that too.  I was re-reading LOC and I saw that passage in Threads Woven of Shadow.  I had to look up &quot;Proxy&quot; but when I did I was like &quot;DUH!&quot;  If Masema isnt Demandred, then I don't know who is.


created: 2002-06-24 17:25:13
subject: <b>Interesting thought Columbo...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b> When disregarding the whitecloaks as a possibility you failed to question the questioners. Remember them. They are apart of the Whitecloaks. If I where a forsaken hiding in the Whitecloaks gang I would definatley use the guise of a questioner. No one questions a questioners. Remember when Geofram Bornhald was sent to Falme. On his way he ran into the questioners murdering entire villages. To make a long story short, just before Geofram dies in battle he sends Child Byar to return to Niall with a letter Re; The questioners doings in Tarabon and Almoth Plain. Geofram seems to think that Niall has no knowledge of the questioners purpose and seems to think it of grave importance that Niall knows ASAP. Remember Carridon ( questioner ). You can hide in the Questioners gang because no one dares pay any attention to them for fear of being put to the question. </b></font><br /><br />I have wondered if anyone was pulling Whitecloak strings.  Especially the Questioners. I have one thing against the possibility though. Perhaps you can find a argument back.<br /><br />The most prominent DF Questioner is (or was) Jaichim Carridin. He was in charge of the Questioners at Falme and has been one of two Questioners we really know about. He was originally in the service of Ishmael from tGH on. He disappeared after Falme until we see him again in Ebou Dar where he is working for Sammael trying to find the <i>cache</i> of <i>*'angreal</i>. Next we see him he is back under Ishmael/Moridin's fist and is soon after killed off.<br /><br />Since we can account for the Questioner's actions at Falme to Ishmael and Carridin's actions at Ebou Dar to Sammael and his final death to Moridin then he can not be Demandred's proxy. <br /><br />Though there were initial beliefs that perhaps Einor Saren could have been Demandred but it is more doubtful when he reappears again after that one scene where he introduced as Carridin's second-in-command 4 books later. He is back from Falme and remaining at the Fortress of Light. Though it is difficult to ascertain his loyalties from the conversation with Morgase, his later conversation with Asunawa shows him to be just another zealous Questioner.<br /><br />Asunawa is also not a DF. We have had his PoV once and seen him in conversations again and again. He is not a DF but a somewhat sadisticly overzealous Questioner. He also doesn't seem to be under anyone else's control. I could find no evidence supporting it. <br /><br />Is there anything you could find that might suggest Demandred is among the Questioners?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 19:58:57
subject: <b>An Alternative Interpretation</b>
body:
Graendal's comment about &quot;blundering&quot; could easily mean that the Asha'man loyal to Taim (that is, under Demandred's influence) are blundering about the country looking for Rand. <br /><br />I think this theory has been raised before, especially in regards to the &quot;advisor&quot; Masema is known to have and has not yet been seen. But being old does not invalidate it; I like the idea.  Of course, I'm also quietly rooting for Norrydred, but the two theories are not necessarily contradictory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 09:49:03
subject: <b>still nothing new</b>
body:
this theory is as old as jain farstrider!  as old as reanna!  would somebody please come up with something different?


created: 2002-06-25 18:27:35
subject: <b>hmmmm intriguing</b>
body:
I just hada thought about the whole masemadred thing<br />In Winters Heart Just before the Shaido kidnap Faile they learn that Masema has had secret dealings with the Seanchan <br /><br />Now someone mentioned the whole supposed tryst between semhirage and demandred in TFOH I believe this is still in effect for a couple reasons<br /><br />1) Jordan has tried to make it appear that Masemas dealings with the Seanchan are all about his hatred of the one power but thats just to obvious<br /><br />2) In WH we also learn that Semhirage is Tuons Advisor or something<br /><br />3) Jordan has made it abundantly clear that Masema is completely insane these days......and so is Demandred. We know for sure that Masema is nuts thanks to Perrins wolf senses but in TGH when perrins wolf sense first comes in handy It never mentions any Psychotic scent about Masema<br /><br />4) When Nynaeve and Elayne meet Uno in Ghealdan Uno and the other Shienarans are totally freaked out about how insane Masema has become and about how much hes changed in such a short time <br />Iforget who said it but somewhere in TFOH (hmmmm strange that it would be in the same book as the tryst) someone mentions that Masema usedto be a drinker, Gambler, and liked his women......I find it hard to believe that the man could change that much so quickly<br /><br />So to conclude I believe that Masema was disposed of by Demandred shortly after Masema sets out to herald the Dragons coming and that the quickness of the seanchan return to Randland may have been aided by information Demandred(Masema) has been giving to semhirage<br /><br />Anyway maybe Im totally off the wall here but I think Its definitely plausible


created: 2002-06-26 01:41:06
subject: <b>Why Two Forsaken</b>
body:
Ok, i'm trying to figure out that if Taim is Demandred, why the DO would place two Forsaken in the Black Tower. We know for a fact that Demandred is involved in the BT in some way, because of his orders to the Bad Ashaman. But Osan'gar is also in the Black Tower, pretending to be Coral Dashiva. I  think that mabey Osan'gar's job was to keep tabs on Rand, seeing as he was his bodyguard, and Demandred's job to turn the Ashaman against Rand. Taim seemed pretty determined that Rand have at least one Ashaman bodyguard. Now Taim was suprised when Rand picked out Dashiva, but I think he might have been suprised because it was who Taim himself was going to suggest. I know this is kind of off the wall, and probably has a lot of holes in it, but it is the only explanation I can come up with so far.


created: 2002-06-28 16:47:00
subject: <b>Whoever said Demmy was crazy?</b>
body:
After all, it wouldn't have been from the taint. The leading theory on why Ishy went bonkers is because he was closer to the world -- and I think Demmy was buried more deeply. <br /><br />'Nother point -- people can and do change that fast.  Masema's case is a classic example of a &quot;religious conversion,&quot; which happens more than you might think. In Masema's case, however, it's fairly clear that the conversion strained his mind a bit, and Demandred made use of that. <br /><br />Or -- HERE'S a crazy notion -- maybe Demandred CAUSED Masema to go mad, so as to make things all the more chaotic . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 00:49:21
subject: <b>Demandred ,Taim Masema</b>
body:
I think Demandred compulsing Masema is more likely than him posing as Masema.Either is more likely than Demandred as Taim.Taim need not be any of the Forsaken.It has often been remarked tha RJ likes to make allegorical references to other literary figures, Rand notably as an Arthurian type,and often as a Christ figure.<br />Hold with the Christ-figure for a moment.&lt;keeping in mind this has been commented on earlier,wish I knew who it was so I could credit them here&gt; Rand has been referenced as a Christ figure often enough,for us to make a few assumptions.Likely Taim is merely his Judas.Directly posing as Taim does not fit Demandred's style,again he likes to use proxies.<br />Using Masema as a proxie fits his style and location.


created: 2002-07-25 13:24:08
subject: <b>demandred</b>
body:
Someone said Ishamael was crazy from being around for the 3k years, from what i gather Ish went insane from his use of the true power. The forsaken comment about how dangerous the true power is and the price is much more then using the one power and should only be used when needed yet Ish uses the true power almost all the time not bothering with the one power at all. I also believe that Masema's craziness is the result of being a fanatic. I think the most likely place for Dem to be is with the questioners. Keep in mind RJ said in an interview that by WH we should know where all the forsaken are. So dem is somewhere and the clues have been given to us. But i see 2 that contradict themselves, one Sammaels belief he is to the south, and the other Mesaana's belief that if the great hold in tear was not trapped Demandred would have had his angreal. There has to be a reason Dem would have access to the great hold. At this point i have to lean towards the white cloaks being his hiding place. maybe even the questioner who showed up right after pedron nialls death.


created: 2002-09-02 00:28:30
subject: <b>masema</b>
body:
yes, i think ur right demandred is probably involved with the dragonsworn, but as for being masema, i doubt it because when he talks to perrin he talks of rand as &quot;the light made flesh&quot; and i sincerely doubt that demandred would ever say something like that of rand. But i believe that he probably is using compulsion on him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />*0*Nynaeve*0*<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 16:35:19
subject: <b>A burr under Masema's saddle.</b>
body:
Myself, I can see Masema being a proxy of Demandred's but not the man himself. When we initially met Masema he kept to himself and didn't like really anyone. He seemed to not care about anything as well. Then he becomes the Prophet. There's time inbetween Rand's going to Tear, then the Waste and Masema's reappearance as the Prophet for Dem to get his hands on him unknowingly to the Shienarian. Masema suddenly has a concern? <br /><br />  Well, maybe it is just the realization of the Last Battle that has a burr under Masema's saddle. Still, I'm thinking compulsion could mess with someone's sanity if the person is made to do something against his normal wishes or desires. It goes along with Dem supposedly messing with things in the south, as well as leaving him free to put his hands into other events.


created: 2002-12-01 08:57:53
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Best theory I've ever heard on Demmy</b>

body:
I like this theory a lot, it brings up a lot of intresting possabilites.  However All evidence points towards Demmy controling Mesema(I know its wrong sp deal with it) and not acctually being him.  For one Mesema has been in the Books since The Great Hunt and i dought that Demmy became him that early on in the series we didn't even know about Demmy then.  Second Mesema is insane and Demmy is not.  So that leaves the possiablity that Demmy is controling Mesema but not acctualy him.  <br /><br />P.S. I wonder wht he'd think about being called Demmy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Jason Gaidin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Knight of the Old Code <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Defender of the Realm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-02 02:31:18
subject: <b>another damedred theory</b>
body:
well at least u dont believe that taim is.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you lend  someone 20 bucks and never see them again it was worth it.<br /><br />penguins will come into storyline i just kno it<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-05 09:26:13
subject: <b>prophet</b>
body:
i agree that demandred is something to do with the prophet, the wise ones dream also adds to it. they say that perrin must kill him because he means harm to rand. demandred will do anything to kill lews therin. it may also explain his hatred of the Power. if he can convince everyone he hates the One Power and that he will never let it touch him he knows that there is no chance of anyone acidentally channeling something at him and damaging his disguise or perhaps sensing his own weavings.


created: 2009-07-30 13:04:48
subject: <b>Evidence for Dem=Masema</b>
body:
Quite simply; Aram is clearly Compelled.  In a way similar to what Verin does to Elza, he comes to the conclusion &quot;Perrin must die&quot; for a reason twisted to his own logic.


created: 2002-06-19 16:52:02
subject: <b>I have to agree with StoneDogAiel....</b>
body:
but that's not to say your theory is without merit. It is possible and I can see how you could draw that conclusion. I just don't believe it, personally. I think Shaidar Haran has probably been around the whole time. But I really have no real theory on the matter. Glad to see some original thought. Keep up the good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society.&quot; ~Mark Twain<br /><br />&quot;No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.&quot; ~Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 19:02:33
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
Its not likely, but its far from the usual stuffy theories that are presents.  Why is it that only a select few get to post when many other people actually have new and inventive theories to follow. Or so thats the way it seems to me, and no I'm not bitter for having over 10 of my theories that had quotes and references, not to mention well worded.  Not at all ^^<br />


created: 2002-06-19 20:12:24
subject: <b>Corrections, and additions</b>
body:
First, I just want to say that when I said advisor, I didn't quite phrase it the way I meant it, I should have said something more like close confident.  Someone who could fill a roll of great trust and responsibility.  Also, it is not a matter of the DO wanting, or needing, someone for this, it is a matter of the Myrddraal convincing him he would be helpful.<br />Second, another thing that led to this theory was that it fits the timeline better than anything else I can think of.  I personally think if Shaidar Haran had been around a while, someone would have noticed.  I mean, I can't imagine it would be easy to hide a giant Myrddraal with super powers.  This way, however, he is brought into the story and given about a book and a half to work his way into the DO's trust.


created: 2002-06-19 20:23:23
subject: <b>Interesting Theory</b>
body:
and pretty original too. The Dragon Lews TheRIN likes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 21:04:52
subject: <b>Interesting.</b>
body:
I don't agree with you, but I think that it's common knowledge that SH wants to be 'away' from SG.<br /><br />Hopefully this will spawn some intelligent conversation!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 21:27:06
subject: <b>Not likely...</b>
body:
I can't imagine this is the case...remember, Fain is not allied with the DO anymore - he's his own little ball o' fun, a little splash of hound of the DO, a good amount of Mordeth, and his own insanity.  There's some evidence that Isam is hunting him, though I can't remember where that comes from, etc...<br /><br />I would argue he's operating on his own, and would have little use of, nor interest in, the Super-Fade...it just seems way too illogical to me, especially when there is nothing to back it up...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 22:21:20
subject: <b>But what about Darth Oz's &quot;The Everlasting Fade&quot; theory?</b>
body:
Darth Oz pulls together some very strong quotes that suggest SH has been around since the bginning.  It would make more sense for SH to have been there since the beginning, lurking in the shadows, rather than to have popped up because of one of Fain's psychotic moments and mananged to get this one particular Fade closer to the DO than any of the other Forsaken (with the exception of Moridin) had constantly dream of getting.<br /><br />[Zao]-[Tonic]


created: 2002-06-19 23:52:56
subject: <b>not from Fain</b>
body:
Fain seems to keep his servants close to him, most of the time, as he rules them by fear alone.  I cannot imagine that the DO wouldn't be aware of Fain's influence on one of his Fades, either.<br /> As for the 'everlasting fade' theory, it makes some very good points, but I have some reservations.  In particular, the Fade who visited Carridin in the prologue of TDR was almost certainly one of the forsaken in disguise, and probably Demandred, in my opinion. <br /> He commanded Carridin to kill Rand, which was not in accord with his (Carridin's) original orders, as Carridin himself exclaims that he thought the DO had wanted to use Rand.  So this was someone trying to highjack Ishamael's plans, and perhaps with the aim of laying the blame on Ishy if Carridin had succeeded.<br /> This fade also seemed a bit too arrogant to be anything other than one of the Chosen, but this argument could be used in support of the SH theory.  Personally, I think the DO does not want Rand killed at this point in the story, so I doubt SH would have been giving such orders to Carridin.  I doubt the DO really wanted Rand dead until he learned of Rand's intent to use the CK to cleanse Saidin; that's when he really started to marshall his forces in an effort to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 00:09:23
subject: <b>Beidomon????</b>
body:
Here's a totally wacky thought whilst we're discussing the purpose of SH.  How about Shaidar Haran = Beidomon?  The mysterious partner to Mierin/Lanfear-to-be's schemes of breaking the Dark One free waaaay back when, a la Bore (see TSR)?  We never do find out what happened to him, and from the Guide we know (hmm, I use the word &quot;know&quot; loosely, because one can never &quot;know&quot; with Mr. Jordan), that he's not Ishamael.  He could be dead (likely in fact), but then, that could be too simple.  Maybe he got pulled into some warp zone, and got mutated into a SuperFade.  Might explain why Shaidar Haran is just not like the Fade-next-door.  He's part super evil resurrected Dreadlord.  Could explain why Lanfear/Cyndane doesn't recognize him - I mean, the dude doesn't have eyeballs anymore.<br />And yup, would probably mean he's been around for while, not just since LoC.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 02:10:14
subject: <b>About Beidomon</b>
body:
This post has raised some very good questions.  We know Mierin survived the drilling of the Bore, but there seems to be nothing anywhere about Beidomon after that.  So where'd he go??<br /> Could Beidomon have been Baal'zamon?  Or could he now be Moridin? Might there not have been an extra, unknown forsaken trapped in the bore for all that time?  <br /> Actually, it seems most likely Beidomon simply died in the AOL, but with RJ, nothing should be taken for granted.  If you re-read Ishy's death in TDR, he sort-of splits in two after Rand sticks Callandor through him.  Maybe Beidomon merged with Ishy in some sort of Luc/Isam weirdness and this is why Ishy was never properly bound.<br /> One question on this point- when Ishy was about to die, he screamed &quot;Help me!&quot; and some of the darkness around him gathered into a ball in his hands.  What on earth was going on there??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 03:21:23
subject: <b>A few thoughts on the topic</b>
body:
First who says Beidomon is/was a dreadlord or other shadow thing?? Lan wasn't turned to the shadow on the spot when they drilled the bore was she?? she turned later maybe beidomon saw his hope for a new power turn into the worse thing to happen in the AOL and killed himself or maybe he later went with LTT to fix his error (theres 134 men that went the 133 Champions and LTT who's to say he wasn't one)<br /><br />as for SH IMHO it's always seemed to me that he was created as a way to scare the Forsakemn into place.he's showing them if you mess up i can make super fades to replace you so you better not.<br />


created: 2002-06-20 03:32:29
subject: <b>My Two Cents</b>
body:
Not too bad of a theory... and there's not enough info in the books for me to argue with it. Pretty damn original, either way.<br /><br />Oh, and The Dragon Lews TheRIN: are you a kindergardener or something? 'Me likes?'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Jahar Narishma... the walking weapon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Forever hating AoC scum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> May my sword remain at the throat of idiots like the AoC <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> My path is that of evil... evil is my path. Watch my footsteps, do not follow, death is the price <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 03:35:48
subject: <b>Jahar...</b>
body:
Shut your face.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 03:44:27
subject: <b>More</b>
body:
Okay, you have one Myrddraal that Fain is preparing to send out to do something for him, and you never hear of this said Myrddraal again.  Then you have another Myrddraal who no one has heard of before suddenly pop into the story fairly soon after.  Fain has said that he wants to get revenge on the Dark One, and maybe he felt the best way to go about this was to get someone close, and have him attack from the inside.  That would explain why he wants to get free of Shayol Ghul, after all, if the DO finds out, he has a fate worse than death coming to him.


created: 2002-06-20 09:12:47
subject: <b>Fear of the DO....</b>
body:
I'll agree that Fain/Mordeth is a pretty scarry character but, does any one think that he is more scarry than the DO. I doubt that Fain could scare or intimidate any one into walking into Shayol Ghul to con the DO. The DO is a GOD (or at least RJ's approximation of one). He is also faily omnipotent (all of the Forsaken take care not to lie to the DO). Don't you think the DO would question a Super Myrdraal just waltzing in and saying &quot;Hey I'm here to help&quot;.  Also, not even Aginor truly understood Myrdraal. He destroyed hundreds trying to understand them, and he created the Trollocs. As for Beidomon being SH, all fades were an accident. The mutant offspring of Trollocs, so how could Beidomon be SH.<br />It is far more likely that SH was improved by the DO. During the AOL he had hundreds if not thousands of Shadow alligned Aes Sedai to do his bidding. Now the DO has only the 13 Chosen/Forsaken (minus casualties), the Black Ajah, and whatever other channelers are out there that the DO can currupt. Let's face it modern channelers are no match for those from the AOL in strength or in sheer knowledge, though some recent progress has been made in both area's. So there is a definite need for someone like SH to help the DO enact all of his various plans and keep the Chosen/Forsaken in line  and oriented on the DO's goals.<br />Now with all of that said, I liked the theory but just can't agree with it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 11:48:01
subject: <b>One question</b>
body:
How is it that SH is bound to Shayol Ghul with the result that he can&#180;t be away too long from the place. I don&#180;t think Fain would have implemented that. But maybe it is just a precaution by the DO though I find it unlikely. <br /><br />Dopo


created: 2002-06-20 16:45:25
subject: <b>Absolutely No way</b>
body:
At the end of TSR, we saw a glimpse of Fain's PoV.  He talked about how the half-man, and how it was once one of Isam's agents.  <br /><br />Apparently, Fain stole the halfman from Isam and used him to attack Taren Ferry.  That was why Luc was so surprised when he heard about the Taren Faren attack.<br /><br />What I think is that Fain is building up an army of 'hounds.'  He stole the fade and used it to attack Taren Ferry.  Similarly, he took 30 of the whitecloaks and converted him into his own hounds.<br /><br />There is no way that Fain has the power to convert a fade into Shaidar Haran.  SH has super-powers, such as blocking a channeler.  Even Fain doesn't have these powers himself.<br /><br />Plus, we have already seen the Everlasting Fade theory, that showed considerable evidence that SH has been around since the beginning of the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 19:21:45
subject: <b>good point Mat...</b>
body:
I assumed that the assignment the fade had was to bring in more trollocs, but it is very possible. Shadar pretty much has to be a creation of the DO. I think that he is just an anomaly thrown in to keep everyone on their toes. If anyone controls SH I would say that it would have to be Ishy. He is in the best position to be Naeblis and if he hasn't been named that already he is certainly heir apparent.<br /><br />A book is a mirror: when a monkey looks in no aspostle can look out<br /><br />Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda<br />


created: 2002-06-20 23:47:31
subject: <b>Thank you Mat</b>
body:
For sucessfully tearing this theory to shreds. Why is it that you have encyclopedic knowledge of the entire series? Why do you always know the facts, and not just wisps of air that you decide to turn into words like the rest of us do? It's not fair to the rest of us. jk<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 01:56:52
subject: <b>Ridiculous</b>
body:
Yeah, the Dark One in therapy. HA HA HA HA HA. This theory is great if you want a ggood long laugh. If anyone actually needed Matrimony C. To point out that this is a bunk theory then they need to go back and read more than just the first sentence of each book. Fain is not a god. The fade he captured was just there to show all you idiots that Fain is uber-cool.<br /><br />Ha Ha HA! I can just see Shai'tan on the couch talking to Shaidar Haran: &quot;You know all this evil just has me down, ya know? I mean why am I always the Bad Guy? Its not like, ya know, Lew Therin was all that great, ya know?&quot;<br /><br /><br />Flaming Fools<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 02:41:49
subject: <b>uh thanks theRIN</b>
body:
I have read the series 3 times, so I am not ultra keen on it like some of the people here.<br /><br />I had to rank the best WOT theory-writers and people who have the most knowledge about WOT, I would put 3 names in the top tier:  Ruhira Sedai, Moridin 2000, and Dom.<br /><br />I think in the 2nd tier I might put Jim, Rabid Wombat, Jeordam, 3 in a boat, Vanin, and mahiro.<br /><br />If I had to put myself somewhere, it would be in the 3rd or 4th tier.  The thing is, alot of people who know the most about the series don't post to the blackboard.<br /><br />One thing I did, is that when I did my 3rd reread, I scoured the books and even took notes.  If I noticed even one suspicious point, I would make a post about it on the MB.  Alot of my posts are pretty flat, but I try to raise discussion on certain points.  I learn alot more from synthesizing other people's points of view, than always coming up with my own.  <br />I always have a few theories in my mind, and some are actually quite bad.  If you look back at alot of my blackboard posts, some are actually quite stupid.  Just look at my last theory on Lanfear:  it had a million holes in it.  <br /><br />But, keep trying, and you will get better at something.  It is kind of scary to say that I becomming accomplished at understanding the dynamics of WOT.  Maybe I should find a new hobby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 08:54:06
subject: <b>The Hand of the DO</b>
body:
<br />I always thought that SH was a special fade, the first of a higher race of Fade that matches more the DO than actual fades. The creator created the humans, and the DO created SH type of fade.<br />Practically, SH could be a fade made with the OP, by Ishameal for example (since Ishamael is using the OP a lot). I think that the desire from SH to free itself from SG is just to the fact that this bound to SG is a BIG WEAKNESS. Without it, SH could do more for the DO, and replace the forsaken as chief of the Darkfriends in the world.<br />As proof of this, I put together two quotation from the books:<br /><br />TGH, blood calls blood:<br /> &quot;The man who channels stands alone. <br /> He gives his friends for sacrifice. <br /> Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.<br /> Which will he choose? Which will he choose?<br /> What hand shelters? What hand slays?&quot;<br /><br />and the sentence in LOC, when the DO is giving orders to Demandred. He says &quot;My hand moves&quot;.<br /><br />SH is maybe the first creture of the DO, made with the OP. It is the Hand of the DO, that will enable him to remake the world to his own image. SH is the contrary of a human: it is bad, it likes shadow (ability to hide in shadow), ability to prevent channeling (whereas human have the abilty to channel).<br />


created: 2002-06-25 10:29:36
subject: <b>Fades on ACTH</b>
body:
Shadar Haran is enormous.  He has access to powers that even the mighty Forsaken don't have.  To build on top of Mat's comments, Fain just doesn't have the oomph to give him that power as well as make him grow so much.<br /><br />Nor, I think, would he have the desire to do so if he could.<br /><br />One thing that I'm really trying to get a wrap on, is the differing nature of the various Evil Powers in Westland. Slayer and Fain HATE each other.  Fain doesn't hate Slayer as much as Rand (or even near), but he's pretty high on the list.  <br /><br />We KNOW there are different sets of Evil -- the DO, Mordeth (and now Fain), Slayer, maybe an aspect of the Finns, maybe Machin Shin (don't flame me on the last one...been awhile since I've read anything on the Black Wind and am a bit fuzzy). Slayer is sympathetic to, and works for, the DO, but is not directly from him.  Fain was abused by the Dark One, and Mordeth arose independently in Aridhol.  The Finn(s) have established themselves as being beyond the control of the DO, and indeed, perhaps more powerful in their own way. <br /><br />The thought I'm working on is whether the different aspects of Evil are in any way related to the different aspects of Power, and if (as would make sense) there are Good counterparts.


created: 2002-06-25 20:38:11
subject: <b>Good, original theory.</b>
body:
It would be TOO coincidental, but good and original, anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 00:56:20
subject: <b>I think he. . .</b>
body:
is the Dark One's enforcer. The DO gave SH permission to use the True Power to help get the Forsaken in line.  I would really like to see and interaction between Moridin and SH, to see which one is in charge.  Oh, and baphomet23, I think asked what was the deal with Ishy saying &quot;aid me!&quot; and gathering a huge ball of darkness.  Ishy was channeling the True Power, which seemed to almost equal Rand with Callandor. That makes me wonder if the True Power is more powerful than the One Power, though probably not considering RJ's theme of balance.


created: 2002-06-26 14:48:45
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran could NOT have been around long</b>
body:
because Fades are the offspring between humans and Trollocs, and Trollocs were created during the end of the last Age by Aginor.<br /><br />Also, none of the Forsaken recognize him.  They are all surprised to see a tall Fade with a sense of humor.<br /><br />I like the idea of Haran being a product of the Shadow and Fain.  If he was solely a creature of the DO, he would not have any thoughts of escaping that control.  It seems to be that he is not the product of an ordinary Trolloc and human union, at any rate.<br /><br />Maybe Fain and a female Trolloc got together.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  Now that's sick!


created: 2004-04-19 01:37:48
subject: <b>WTF!</b>
body:
umm...fain KILLED his myrdraal. this is shown in a PoV from him AND Rand's party FINDS the myrdraal staked to a wall. DEAD. NOT Shaidar Haran.


created: 2005-02-04 08:17:29
subject: <b>Few thoughts</b>
body:
Quote:<br />&quot;Shadar Haran is enormous. He has access to powers that even the mighty Forsaken don't have. To build on top of Mat's comments, Fain just doesn't have the oomph to give him that power as well as make him grow so much.&quot;<br /><br />Well, I am also struggling to understand *what exactly* Fain is now, but judging from the book, it looks like whenever Fain enounters and/or kills a creature or person, he can acquire their special skills (I don't think that would apply for channeling though). Some of these skills, or several combined, indicate he DOES have a lot of oomph, after all you don't kill Greymen (or what were they called) and torture Myrrdraal so easily... even most of our heroes have trouble fighting Myrrdaal. To me, this indicates that Fain is very powerful in direct combat, but also vulnerable (e.g. the fight with Rand in Far Maddin). However, his trickery is where his real power lies. Fain seemed to have made some kind of 'agreement' with the Myrrdraal he captured (forced, of course, but still an agreement). And he possesses a lot of old knowledge as well, and I think even some 'lost' knowledge.<br /><br /><br />&quot;umm...fain KILLED his myrdraal. this is shown in a PoV from him AND Rand's party FINDS the myrdraal staked to a wall. DEAD. NOT Shaidar Haran.&quot;<br /><br />I think you're thinking of the Myrrdraal in TGH or TDR, when Perrin was hunting for the Horn of Valere.<br /><br />Maybe this theory isn't correct, but it's worth keeping in the back of your head. Personally, I think there might be more to this.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2006-01-07 21:01:20
subject: <b>SH is not a new character</b>
body:
If you read tEotW carefully in chapter 17 Rand meets a smiling fade and that proves SH is indeed not new. SH maybe however the shadow Nae'blis the one which is the equal to the real Nae'blis but hides in the shadows.


created: 2007-10-30 12:55:28
subject: <b>I dont think so</b>
body:
Fain might be able to order a Fade but not to that extent. WHy? because the DO is nearly omnipotent and Fain merely causes fear to a Fade or a shadowspawn. But not to the extent of being a mole for a rogue darkfriend.


created: 2002-06-20 09:13:17
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
The first time I came across &quot;What good to tell him [Rand] he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone&quot; I was sure min ment morgaz.<br />Not becuse of the 4 resons Eyless Myrddraal mentiond, but for another.<br />I was looking for a women who is critical for rands victory.<br />and i think that it is morgaz.<br />Rand is doing quite well without morian but morgaz is another story.<br />If he had morgaz next 2 him (or that it would be known that she is alive) would have brought Gavin 2 his side (gavin actuely liked rand) when he was kidnaped in book six.<br />With gavin as chief commander of rands soldirs in andor he would have had andor in his pocket.<br /> <br />And if I would b alowed 2 take a wild gusse then I would say that galad is destenid 2 b head of thw whiteclocks....<br />So morgaz abssence is a pain in the neck for rand....<br /><br />Then again, I might b wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />What is time for a wolf?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 09:39:07
subject: <b>That, my friend, is a very good point.</b>
body:
Rand needing Lanfear. Interesting. But wouldn't Min have been a bit surprised at that, since she was one of the most dangerous Forsaken, and maybe said something?<br /><br />This might also explain why seemed to have had a glimmer of hope at seeing Caraline Damodred - if Moiraine were alive, it would probably mean Lanfear was alive (from Min's perspective anyway).<br /><br />I'm sad Lanfear died. I really liked her, and &quot;Cyndane&quot; isn't nearly so good, being weaker in the Power and controlled by Moridin.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 09:59:15
subject: <b>Your logic holds together</b>
body:
really well, it had never occurred to me it might be a reference to someone else.  But you're right, Min seems to think her viewing concerning Moiraine has certainly failed, yet she expresses ambivalence concerning the viewing about TG, so that definately cannot be the failed viewing.<br /> Well spotted!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 10:28:15
subject: <b>Morgase, who?</b>
body:
First off, let me say that it has been my opinion that for the &quot;good guys&quot; to win TG, all nations, including the Seachan, perhaps even Shara and Tremalking, Aes Sedai and Asha'Man must unite to defeat the evil dreadlords and Forsaken. That being said, sure Morgase would help to sweeten the pot. And yes, maybe Morgase will help to convince Gawin that Rand isn't a really bad person (if Egwene couldn't do that.)<br /><br />But, Elayne sits on the throne of Andor, the same throne that Morgase has renounced. Elayne is the rightful ruler of Andor, and she seems to already have some sort of coalition worked out with Rand. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Furthermore, Morgase was never thought dead by those with her. Balwer, Tallanvor, Gill, Lini, et. al. Moraine is considered dead by EVERYONE. Therefore, I think she more accurately fits the description.<br /><br />Now, you may be correct. It is possible that in Min's veiwing about someone being dead, and to go along with your reasoning, that she was simply refering to someone SHE thought was dead, namely Morgase. And like I said, I think Morgase could play a major role in helping to re-unite Andor and even Cairhien. There is no doubt that she is a formidible ally. I'm still going with Moraine being the one this passage talks about, but it's a good aurgument either way.<br /><br />Peace, Out V<br /><br />P.S. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Eyeless mydraal scares me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


