# w_comment

created: 2002-11-15 22:45:50
subject: <b>there is a difference</b>
body:
I get what you are saying about the hole, but there is a difference between the very existence of life, and one person's general pattern. Personally, I think it takes alot more than that to close up a hole in the pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Zerinia Faershiam<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />129 w 87 tree<br />Murrinell Wood, WE, 98833<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 17:35:49
subject: <b>I like.</b>
body:
Wow, I really liked this theory.  You're arguments were great, and I think I agree with them.  It's something new, something I never even considered. <br /><br />I'm not sure who would be working with Nynaeve(assuming this is what will happen), but I don't think it will be Rand.  I think it will be Logain or Flinn, as said before.  Rand, I believe, will have to force the DO's hand back into the prison, and keep all of the DO in there while the &quot;Healing&quot; occurs.<br />And the &quot;clear away the rubbish&quot; might very well be the rest of the seals, as said in a previous post.<br /><br />All in all, great job.<br /><br />(I though Cadsuane was going to teach them laughter and tears . . .)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;Khorja&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> WolfSister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-30 10:08:11
subject: <b>teh bore being sealed by &quot;healing? no, no...</b>
body:
Twice and Twice shall he be marked,<br />Tice to live and twice to die,<br />Once the Heron to set his path,<br />Twice the Heron to name him true,<br />Once the Dragon for remembrance lost,<br />Twice the dragon for the price he must pay.<br /><br />Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed,<br />Once for mourning, Once for birth,<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul,<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.<br /><br /><br />which brings us to these two &quot;unhealing&quot; wounds in Rands side. Obviously Rand will become the &quot;Master&quot; of healing, as he is supposed to &quot;Heal the Wounds of Madness, and Cutting of Hope. If he can heal these two wounds, then obviously he will surpass Nyneave and Damer Flinn by FAR. However, there is nothing that suggests that they will &quot;Heal&quot; the dark one's prison. It is MUCH more likely that Rand and Matrim and Perrin will change teh &quot;Tar marat movrain&quot; (the weave of destiny, or the &quot;Lace of Ages&quot; for all time) this is supported by some of the things smart peoples have said all along such as moiraines quote &quot;a Ta'veren as strong as you could rip the lace of ages for all time, the pattern might NEVER heal itself&quot; now, she obviously thought that such an event would be a DISASTER, therefore she dismissed it instantly. BUT WHAT IF... Rand and friends either made it so that the prison would never be reopened, or DESTROYED THE DARK ONE!!!<br /><br />Now, Rand most probably ALREADY knows how to fix the prison, and/or Destroy the Dark One. How can I feasibly say this??? well, obviously any well read Wotmania fan would know of Rand's fisit through the Ter'angreal in Tear, where, he, like everyone else, was entitled to three questions. Two of them we can verify as being &quot;What must i do?&quot; and his reply was not clear, but we know that he was advised to go to Rhuidean. His Second question was a doosy &quot;How do i remove the Taint from Saidin?&quot; and his reply was something along the lines of &quot;Through the use if high principles and moral standards&quot; (i believe i got that wrong, but i plan on checkin later today. teh Third question has yet to be revealed, but i believe that someone as powerful as Rand could get away with asking questions related to the shadow without danger, so he went ahead and asked the mother of them all &quot;What must i do to win Tarmon Gaidon&quot; , or &quot;How do i Destroy the Dark one, or &quot;How do i reseal the Dark One's prison. therefore, RAND not some anynymous petty &quot;Healer&quot; will fix the hole in the Dark One's prison<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-08 20:28:58
subject: <b>the aelfinn</b>
body:
When mat says to rand in TSR how the snakey ppl told him to go rhuidean and maybe they tell every1 that, rand says they didnt tell him that...<br /><br />maybe i just have memory problems...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-25 13:18:10
subject: <b>Flinn won't be involved</b>
body:
Follow me on this one. True Healing is used on physical wounds, to knit flesh and bone back together.  No physical wounds are created by severing, so Healing a Severed person is simply a matter of re-establishing the conduit between them and the source. I believe that the use of the term &quot;Healing&quot; for this re-establishment is simply used for want of a better phrase.<br />I am convinced that Rand will reseal the DO's prison, however he does it, but we know that Rand is pathetic at healing (see his campaign to push the Seanchan back to Ebou Dar)<br /><br />There4, if Rand reseals the prison with a weave of whatever sort, i don't think it will truly resemble Healing, which means that Flinn, as the strongest available male Healer, would not be necessary.<br /><br />That's a little hard for even me to follow, and I wrote it, but...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 02:21:19
subject: <b>Uhhhhhhh..........</b>
body:
Mabye it is ME who is dreaming, but in WH, while in Far Madding, did Cadsuane not say that she had to &quot;Teach that boy how to laugh, and cry, again.&quot; ????? RJ is not saving ALL of the plotlines to be resolved in the last book. After all, if he did, it would be about 3000 pages long, and we already have to wait 2+ years for the drivel he has written since CoS. Damn. If only i wasnt so addicted.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 05:41:47
subject: <b>Green Gaidin is right</b>
body:
everyone knows what she is going to teach, so why are new theories being put up for what we know (sorry if i sound harsh<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Member of the ASI <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 08:25:13
subject: <b>Yes I agree</b>
body:
It is the consencus of most people here on theese boards that humility and humanity is what she will teach the Asha'man, but honestly is she really the one to do that, she is so full of herself that it makes me sick, can you actually see Cadsuane bend her neck and say, we are all just servants to the public, hardly.


created: 2001-09-10 10:01:09
subject: <b>Another viewpoint</b>
body:
It's a lesson they won't enjoy learning, not one bit. That from Min's viewing. When she told Rand this, and then later Cadsuane says she needs to teach that boy to laugh and to cry again, we all automatically link the two. This isn't unreasonable at all, but is it sure? I have some flyspecks to toss among the pepper.<br /><br />First off, in looking carefully over all that Rand has done in the last three books, I find that while he is confident in himself and what he knows he needs to do, I don't find this to be arrogant in the way that Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Egwene, or many others that could be named are arrogant. Since Rand has accepted who he is, he knows that he MUST do what he does, and he spent a great amount of time, first in Tear, studying all that he could do decide how to accomplish those things. And he has been fighting against both friend and foe over the how and the why, feels he can trust almost noone, etc...<br /><br />All this has led him to behave in a way that outsiders would view as arrogant. But pay attention to his internal POV thoughts. He expects that all this is certain to end in his death, that he has been saddled with the greatest mountain of duty ever, and onward he goes. Not you nor I can call this arrogant. He is SERVING ALL in the way he believes will work. Yes, he has had to don the mantle of leader and order folks that Rand al'Thor of the Two Rivers would have been pulling wool to, but even now that isn't something he wants, it's just what has to be and he is filling the shoes.<br /><br />I don't think Cadsuane is capable of teaching anyone humility in a way that will improve them. She is certainly able to humble others with her venomous style, but that won't improve anyone's attitude.<br /><br />Enough babbling. My guess is that Cadsuane will teach them how much they need to work with the Female Aes Sedai in order to accomplish their goals. They certainly to a man are more than wary of the Aes Sedai, and Rand especially still has a hard time with them. The only problem in this thought would be, which group of Aes Sedai would Cadsuane have them join? She as yet sees the Salidar group as rebellious children, but she is now aware that the Tower is broken and in turmoil, and likely she is aware of at least some of the Black Ajah's exploits.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 11:18:19
subject: <b>humility...... naah</b>
body:
sure it said in WH that she must learn him to laugh and cry again. well She isn't the most pleasent and carefull person in the book. <br /><br />mabe she will but... I don't know how she can do it. She isn't NICE!!!!!!


created: 2001-09-12 04:40:16
subject: <b>I like Cadsuane</b>
body:
Please don't shoot me...<br />I think saying that Rand is not an arrogant brat is about as wrong as you can be.  It is  not necessary to feel above others to act like you do. Half his PoV are about how he has to act confident and not give a hair to anyone. Myself, I think CAdsuane is already improving him. If he could just get off his high horse and listen to people for a change (something he never does unless the person who's talking to him has slept with him), he would instantly become a much better leader. Also I do think Cadsuane will teach RAnd to laugh and cry, which is fairly obvious since she told Sorelia she would. But perhaps she could teach him trust as well?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 16:30:46
subject: <b>In responce to Mierin Sedai</b>
body:
I don't disagree that Rand is arrogant in his own way.  I disagree, though that he doesn't listen to people.  He listens to Dobraine, and Bashere quite abit.  He doesn't always follow their advice but he pays attention to it.  The same is true with Cadsuane.  He might gripe and complain but in the end he listens to her.  <br /><br />Granted, without one of his three ladies around he can be more closed minded as in PoD.  On the other hand, in WH, he made a good portion of his decisions against his first judgement because he listened to others.  Nynaeve convinced him to let her join him.  Elayne and company convinced him to let them bond him.  Verin convinced him to apologize to Cadsuane.  Alanna convinced him to let the other AS help.  Cadsuane convinced him to accept the Sea Folk ambassador in his entourage (and to let the others help him clean Saidin I am sure.)  Before he got the note from Padan Fain, Min and Co. convinced him to leave.  Rand continually went against his own judgement when it was shown that it was wrong.  <br /><br />Who should Rand listen to that he isn't already?  Egwene has her own source of arrogance, and under Halima, is not trustworthy at all.  Or maybe you think he should listen more to Weiramon and company.  *Shudders*  He probably should pay more attention to the maidens, I agree.  I don't think I would listen to the Wise Ones, myself, though because of their habit of giving advice without explaining why.  They keep way too many secrets for Rand to trust.  <br /><br />Should Rand listen to the other AS more.  With the way AS, routinely operate behind close doors to manipulate people, I can't blame him for being wary of them.  I have already shown that Rand listens to Nynaeve, Elayne, Min, Verin, Cadsuane, Bashere, Dobraine, and Allana.  I can go on and on (Rand accepting Merana's chastisement in PoD when he criticizes her about the bargain is another.)<br /><br />Actually I think I have already went on and on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br />As far as what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'man I don't know.  I don't think that all of the Asha'man need to learn how to laugh and cry.  I can't imagine that learning how to laugh and cry is something that they will dislike.  A good portion of the Asha'man do seem to have some sort of humility already.  (They certainly are not any worse than the AS)<br /><br />Maybe, it is something like the Asha'man must submit themselves to Egwene or the WT.  But who knows.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-14 18:55:01
subject: <b>Cadsuane and WH.</b>
body:
In WH and in PoD( I think ) Min and Cadsuane talk about teaching Rand to laugh and cry again. So I agree with all those who are wondering why there are new theories out there...when its already been said what shes going to teach them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />~~Kaidrin Faeraih Sedai~~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />~~Blue Ajah~~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 11:28:58
subject: <b>What ever happened to the voices</b>
body:
I forget what book, but there's a passage where Cadsuane asks Rand if he has started to hear voices yet.  This suggests that she knows something more of how men control their sanity when using Saidin.  Granted, Rand cleansing the taint may have solved this problem, but it seems strange that Jordan would show such unique knowledge from Cadsuane without taking it somewhere.


created: 2001-12-12 23:31:32
subject: <b>Perhaps.........</b>
body:
I think she's aiming more at softening them up, they act arrogant because they are afraid not too. If Rand acted meek and humble Everyone from greedies, Aes Sedai, to the Dark One would swarm over him. <br /><br />If anybody reads this and has an opinion about it email me, refer to my signiture.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-24 21:43:26
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
I dont think she will teach them to be equals because I think Cadsuane thinks herself entirely to far above other Aes Sedai and everyone else that there no way she gonna teach anyone how to be equals


created: 2003-06-03 16:01:06
subject: <b>about the &quot;defenders balance the servants&quot;</b>
body:
Yes they did mean the Guardians(!!) will balance the Servants, in numbers and power, not in the level.<br />The Guardians are already like 500-700 or something like that.<br />The White Tower is about a 1000 with the Kin, thats another 2000 though they might not be counted.<br />After the Black Tower split the Guardians will be cut to like 300 I think and then they will have to grow to a 1000. <br />Then they will balance the Servants and the Last Battle will be done &quot;but the world not done with battle&quot;<br />since the new found guardians will fight the aes sedai and the world will be torn in the battle as in the <br />prophesy<br />&quot;we danced among the lightning bolts and tore the world asunder&quot; <br />a song near the end of the previous age<br />attributed to the DR since he founded them and thus broke the world again<br />ok im gonna make this a theory but its still a nice comment <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-05-06 15:49:18
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
&quot;think Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'man HUMILITY. Rand is so full of pride, so arrogant in his position as Dragon Reborn that he views most people as tools to use. Aes Sedai in his view are all grouped together as untrustworthy and conniving (justified in many instances).&quot;<br /><br />-This seems just like the Aes Sedai<br /><br /><br />What Cadsuane will teach Rand, the Asha'man, and hopefully the Female Aes Sedai, is that their ability to channel does not place them above people, but instead creates a responsibility to use their ability to care for the rest of humanity.<br /><br />-I'm not sure it will be Cadsuance to do this, but I do believe it will happen. Cadsuane is different from other Aes Sedai, to me, because strength in the one power doesnt matter to her- just the type of person someone is. I believe the Aes Sedai need to learn this even more than the Ashaman do.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WoTmen<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />need freedom to roll the dice!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />Female rulers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />need to be spammed!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-19 19:12:04
subject: <b>Defenders balancing the Servants</b>
body:
the quote is Nicola's first foretelling: The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond....the guardians shall balance the servants...and so on i cant remember it exactly.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a dark seed growing<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath<br />Trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-09 05:21:21
subject: <b>Random comments</b>
body:
Your on the right track with this theory. But instead of humility perhaps humanity? That they are human and can't do everything, yes? Why am I writing like a Taraboner? I saw someone mentioned submitting to Egwene... just this... lmfao. Not only is this not foreshadowed much (except in the mind of an arrogant little girl) prophecy is against this. Ahem... The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. And no, this is NOT the event of Dumai's well. 9 AS swearing to Rand is not the whole tower. Also you have the sea folk prophecy that the WT will bend to the Coramoor. These two prophecies is also why I see the whole face Amyrylin and know anger thing to climax in Rand teaching Egwene that the WT has no authority over thim. Sorry about the rant regarding an old comment on an old theory... major pet peeve of mine that Rand or BT will be doing any bowing to the WT or Egwene. Don't get me wrong... I respect Egwene, but she is far more arrogant to Rand. BTW someone else mentioned that no one knows where Cadsuane stands in the rebellion... anyone consider she leads the ones who are sitting to the side? They are mentioned in awful lot... Peace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-05-12 07:46:55
subject: <b>what must be endured</b>
body:
I think it's quite simple what she will teach:<br />What most be endured can be endured.<br />She was tough that lesson long time ago by a old wilder.<br /><br />And there is evidence her forcing him to accept the bargain. The conditions in Tear.<br />Her help in Shadar Logon.<br />It's a lesson to be learned for all that are part of the War Woman and Man and be able to channel won't set you apart or beeing a key figure.<br /><br /><br />1 of the reasons he his becoming harder and harder is that he blames himself for consequence of his actions but he has to accept that his actions can not always benefit others and sometimes harm innocent people.


created: 2001-09-10 15:59:52
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
all i can say is.....interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is easier to stab someone in the back<br />  then to look them in the eye.<br />Society is built upon this principle<br />  and is universal amongst those who rule.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 00:50:59
subject: <b>Raserai may have already said as much but</b>
body:
Lycanthrovirginity is a damned cool word!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-30 11:11:14
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I really don<br />t like to mak words but it really annoys me when people get lycantrophy mixed upp with controlled shape shifting.<br />lycantrophy is spposedly a virus that meses with your gens in a very curious manner so that your shapechanges are relative to the phases of the moon... sorry 'bout that couldnt help it intresting theory anyway.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-26 21:47:51
subject: <b>Actually, ^kabuki?</b>
body:
Actually, most scientists agree that lycanthropy refers to a type of insanity wherein the afflicted person believes<br />that he or she is a wolf, or can become a wolf or some other beast.  <br /><br />The word derives from Greek mythology.  Lycaon was an Arcadian king who was transformed into a wolf for<br />presuming to test the divinity of Zeus.  <br /><br />Ironically, some think that werewolf legends also stem from a Roman myth about the founder and first king of Rome.<br />Romulus and his twin brother Remus were the sons of Mars and Rhea Silvia, but were abandoned a babes.<br />A she-wolf nursed them until they were found and raised by a shepherd.<br /><br />Note that the actual historical foundation of Rome is still wreathed in mystery.  Instead of Romulus, it could just as<br />likely be named for Roma, a lady of noble birth who supposedly prompted the displaced women who, with their<br />families, had escaped Troy to land at the mouth of the river Tiber, to burn their ships and settle.<br /><br />Anyway, the point is that we all agree there is no such thing as real shapeshifting.  Lycanthropy was just a<br />convenient word that I assumed everyone would recognize and understand to mean werewolf-ism.  There, I just <br />made up a new word for your delight.  Woot.<br /><br />Cheers, Kagemeister (of the New Username) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-01-17 19:41:16
subject: <b>yeppers</b>
body:
Yeppers your right, because when Birgette is riped from the wheel remember the fight with Moghedien. Moghedien changed Birgette into a baby and said something about being able to permenatly change things in T'a'R and that means that your theory is very possible. Great thinkin!!!


created: 2002-02-26 18:23:44
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I realy like this theory! it would be so cool if Perrin where to become a wolf.<br /><br />i only wonder why this is in the humor section?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> uurgh the mighty norse warrior <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-08-10 12:35:35
subject: <b>*tsk tsk*</b>
body:
&quot;lycanthrovirginity&quot;??? You're too young to be doing these kinds of drugs.<br /><br />P.S. Great lesson about the ancient rome thing. J to the K to the izzle fo'shizzle is going down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Aquila al'Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Daughter of the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> High Tamyrlin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Captain of the Angels <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> RJ's Worst Mightmare <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 03:05:33
subject: <b>Good stuff...but...</b>
body:
thats quite a good theory but... so are you saying that the seals sealed off the vacoule? if so wouldnt the forsaken have been awake and roaming the vacuole for 3000 yrs? over 3000 yrs they would have got a good understanding of this place and would know all its secrets. then moggy would have been able to escape easily even out of the &quot;room&quot; she was held captive in but maybe not the whole place, because they were trapped in there by the seals... interesting...<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 09:29:52
subject: <b>Or maybe....?</b>
body:
If Shaidar Haran can control a vacuole to the extent of inserting and removing a person from one, then why would not the DO, the source of S.H.'s power, be able to overcome one? So, I have a problem with the DO's prison being such a construct.<br /><br />I do, however, agree with the concept that the DO can't actually EXIT the prison. The seals on the bore prevented him from even elementally touching the real world, which he now is partially able to do, and will more strongly as the remaining seals disintegrate. Thsi in itself would oppose something akin to a vacuole.<br /><br />Now, as to why the Forsaken don't actively pursue the seals. Well, the fact that they are freed from the sealed bore means that the seals are losing effectiveness, and they are all sharp enough to recognize this. My guess is that they believe the seals will all crumble on their own, and don't need any extra attention.<br /><br />There remains some questions though. Will whatever seals remain intact actually continue to degenerate now that saidin is cleansed, or will they hold out? It has long been suggested that the taint on the male Power is what is damaging them. That would throw a monkey wrench in the bad guys' plans. Moridin should know more than anyone alive about this subject, being held only in a limited fashion by the seals for all those years.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 09:46:48
subject: <b>Two problems with two of your arguments....</b>
body:
<b>Once Lanfear and co. drilled into the bore it was open for all to see for about 10 years or so.</b><br /><br />Unfortunately, the Bore was open for decades.  There was a period referred to as the Collapse, where society began to degenerate due to the Dark One's touch.  This period lasted at least fifty years and possibly over one hundred as per the quote from &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghul&quot; below:<br /><br />&quot;plainly at least fifty years and possibly more than one hundred were marked by a rapid decline in the social order and an equally rapid increase in a thousand ills that previously had been either rare or entirely unknown.&quot;<br /><br /><b>We never heard that the bore ever increased in size</b><br /><br />Actually, it had.  See this quote:<br /><br />&quot;Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier.&quot;<br /><br />I have to disagree with your hypothesis on the basis that the Dark One's influence on the world DID increase when the seals broke--before the seals broke, he was only able to slow the seasonal changes; after a few broke and the Forsaken got out, he was able to stop them entirely (until he was thwarted by the Bowl of the Winds, that is...).  There are other reasons I disagree, but that's the one that came to mind right away.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 10:51:14
subject: <b>The dark one could NOT jump through the bore.</b>
body:
The books made it clear that the DO could NOT jump through the hole in the pattern. He could only &quot;put his finger through&quot;.  <br />I Think this means that he could only influence slightly the people and events of the pattern.  The Forsaken were supposed<br />to be attempting the fully open the bore , or rend the pattern in such a way that the &quot;Shadow would lay completely on the Pattern&quot; <br />as Moraine says.


created: 2001-09-11 06:44:23
subject: <b>WHY</b>
body:
I had wondered why Lanfear&amp;CO didn't made either larger Bore or new Bores. She knew how to make that original Bore, so it should have been easy to give DO better access to real world. I am almost certain that DO would want that better access. In fact if I were DO I would use channelers to do that instead of letting them run around. If DO is free almost nothing Forsaken had done would have any meaning. So it would be more effective use of resources for DO to use them to liberate Him instead of meaningless way Forsaken are doing things. What I mean is that DO doesn't care who rules the world, bc He is going to change that something totally different, which means that anything that anybody else had done will disappear or be changed by DO.


created: 2001-09-11 15:51:42
subject: <b>The Forsaken don't want to break the seals yet</b>
body:
The forsaken don't want to break the seals yet.  When the seals break and the Dark One is able to touch the world in the manner that he was before the sealing, then it's pretty much over. Tarmon Gaidon is going to happen and they (The Forsaken) will have to make a stand where they are.  They are currently trying to build their power in the land so that the Last Battle will go off without a hitch.  They need nations and dreadlords behind them. Say for instance, that they busted the seals with just themselves(the Chosen) to fight the Last Battle. No matter how powerful they are, they would LOSE. Until recently, none of them had any angreal. Quote:<br /><br />Mesaana: &quot;No doubt there are some (angreal/sa'angreal) in Cairhien and Rhudien, but even if you do not walk right into al'Thor, both are full of women who can channel.&quot;<br />Greandal:&quot;Ignorant girls.&quot;<br />Semirhage:&quot;If a kitchen girl puts a knife in your back, are you less dead than of your fall in a sha'je duel at Qal?&quot;(Lord of Chaos page 6<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Also, in another place that I can't remember where, one of the forsaken is musing to itself, &quot;...untrained children! Of course, enough untrained children could crush us all...&quot;(somebook on somepage)<br />So clearly, the forsaken don't view themselves as powerful enough yet (not to mention their lack of knowlege of the world they find themselves in) to take on the world.


created: 2001-09-11 19:39:14
subject: <b>y they don't drill more bores</b>
body:
The reason that they don't drill more bores is because of the repurcussion remember from the white book that the city was distroyed by the bore.  Maybe Lanfear knows that another one would do the same but this time it might kill her.  Or maybe there aren't enough channelers to drill a bore? just some thoughts


created: 2001-09-23 02:33:29
subject: <b>The Dark One is a wimp!</b>
body:
Everybody is saying ooh...look at the big bad dark one, he's gotta be a balance against the creator.  Well i say pfah!  That is utterly ridiculous.  Think about it.  you are talking about a being who is, according to all of you, a small step below the creator if not more powerful.  And yet, the dragon (a human) kicks his a$$ on a regular basis.  The dragon is supposed to be &quot;the creators chosen one&quot; who fights for good, and yet he always defeats the dark one.  The dark one himself said that the dragon is his age old enemy.  NOT THE CREATOR...THE DRAGON!!  This leads me to believe that the DO is merely the pawn of the real balance to the creator.  Possably mickey mouse. Possably not.  But the DO is not so great. (BTW...the true power isn't from the DO, it is from his master, who focuses his power in to our world through the DO.  <br /><br />This leads me right in to my theory about the taint.  Saidin and saidar are opposite froces in the universe, both feuding, and yet dependant upon one another.  The DO, who is merely a servant of real power placed the taint.  Now lets think.  Hmm.....what does the DO have to work with?  The answer: saidin and saidar.  So...i believe that the taint has been a layer of saidar added on to saidin. <br /><br /> &quot;But why is it putrid then,&quot; you may ask.  it is putrid because men cannot touch saidar, so to them it is putrid (unless the are in conjunction with a female aes sedai, in which case they see it as the dames do) <br /><br />You may also ask why, if the taint is saidar, did women who were among the hundred companions, also go nuts (and they did).  The answer to this is that they were part of the direct feedback that the DO sent, so they were given more saidar then they could handle (keep in mind, its enoughto blanket all of saidin), and thus fell victim to one of the normal affects of that (you either burn yourself out, die, or go nuts)<br />i'm<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />a wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />, and thats news to me. <br /><br />(watch the daily show on comedy central...its hilarious)<br />(if you watch it already, you should get my signature) <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 14:51:07
subject: <b>To the comment above me...</b>
body:
NO YOU FOOL! The &quot;Women&quot; in the hundred companions didn't go nuts or burn out because THEY DIDN'T EXIST! The rest of your response is...decent...but think about it! There-were-no-women! That's why the bore was not sealed properly, and that is why the boys went loony! Simple as that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serving Home-cooked meals at affordable prices since 1999</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-02 02:15:54
subject: <b>Daddio</b>
body:
Metallica-Man you just made a lot of statements, but didn't back them up with much in the way of proof. While I think them interesting I was wondering if you could tell me how you came to your conclusions.


created: 2002-01-25 19:29:03
subject: <b>The **DO's** master?</b>
body:
Wow.<br /><br />I hope WoT does not need such a huge deus ex machina like that to explain this situation.<br /><br />I personally hadn't gone much further than RJ's own &quot;reverse myth&quot; thing. Thus the DO is merely a &quot;basis&quot; for Lucifer, who was just an (arch?)angel like all the rest, especially like Gabriel or Michael, one of which &quot;is based on&quot; Rand (i don't really know well enough to say for certain).  This is why the DO is such a failure Age after Age.


created: 2001-09-16 14:17:39
subject: <b>Almost right.</b>
body:
After Cadsuanne knocks Mats eye out with a slap for his foul mouth, he will drop his <i>ashandarei</i>.  The power wrought weapon will fall and cut off Rand's hand.  This will of course be happening in a forge where Perrin will cauterize the wound with a white-hot iron (See Min's predictions of Rand in EotW). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-17 09:00:25
subject: <b>*sniffles*</b>
body:
You stole the title I made up.  <br /><br /><i>To Laugh and Cry.</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 13:19:55
subject: <b>Re: Geer's hypothesis...</b>
body:
I have the foretelling, and Geer speaks the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Lauriana Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-11 17:31:41
subject: <b>A further study reveals...</b>
body:
Once Rands hand is cauterized by Perin he will spin suddenly to show off his new stump.  In doing so his intact hand swings wide slapping Cadsuane with a nasty backhand to the face.  Aveinda will see this and become aroused by the aggressiveness Rand utilizes and that will lead to a second child who will be Gaidal reincarnated :b


created: 2002-01-01 19:00:47
subject: <b>No No No,</b>
body:
Cadsuane slaps Mat and he falls loosing grip of his Spear as it falls and rand is laughing it cuts his thumb being the worse paper cut in the history of Randland! being he cry's cuz it hurts<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Slighly Sain <br />A bit Synical<br />Master Illit<br />Lord of Typo's<br />King Newbie<br />The Doomed BEDLAM<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 18:44:51
subject: <b>just like a funny riddle</b>
body:
This is hilarious!!<br />you made a question that the rest of the world was pondering like mad over, seem so simple.(ok, ok i know the whole world doesn't read WoT, but the people who matter do) <br />it reminds me of a riddle,<br />how do u put a giraffe into a refirdgerator.<br />open the door, put the giraffe in the refrigerator, close the door.<br />Very funy.<br />PS please excuse my bad spelling<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tulleel sedai<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 01:49:36
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
I like it! simple, blunt, and to the point! but where is the part where cadsuane dies! that part i like<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-28 08:36:21
subject: <b>right....</b>
body:
very short...but kinda funny<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 05:15:38
subject: <b>That would be cool</b>
body:
I like the idea, it would be cool I think.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 21:58:20
subject: <b>Just a soldier</b>
body:
There are repetative references to Dobraines jacket showing wearmarks from his armour.  Demandred is noted as the second best soldier to Lews Therin.  Dobraine was also present at Dumai's Wells, which would account for Taim and the Asha'man knowing the location of the battle.  Dobraine has been given the leadership of Cairhein, paralleling Lews Therins gifts and praise to Demandred.  Dobraine was also aware of Rands interest in Fel.  Another question is how the Forsaken knew of Rand's plan to cleanse the source.  At the beginning of Winter's Heart, he tells Min, just after they have travelled from...Cairhein and a meeting with Dobraine (followed the weaves?)


created: 2001-09-16 07:09:05
subject: <b>Nice, but...</b>
body:
Well, I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun if Breane actually had an excuse for being alive, you know, but you have not convinced me, and I still think she would be better off dead...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 22:12:49
subject: <b>Dobraindead</b>
body:
I was tempted to go for the pun as well, but because it's not a very sound theory.<br /><br />Demandred is someone who is likely to 'just stumble across' (or whatever the words were!) Rand. Does not compute with Dobraine.<br /><br />Demandred 'delights in using proxies' (or whatever the words were!). Does not compute with Dobraine (does he even have 'proxies'?).<br /><br />Just because Demandred is a good general is not a reason for him to be directly involved in battles. Demandred, being the Forsaken who has the dubious distinction of 'doing bugger all that anyone has actually seen so far'. Why would a Forsaken, with all the knowledge of the AOL, get involved in a real fight instead of where he can use OP? Does not compute with Dobraine.<br /><br />Demandred is somewhere off-screen manipulating people. Being an offsider of Masema is more likely. But that's someone else's theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 17:17:38
subject: <b>question?</b>
body:
I was thinking. Several times in interviews, RJ has stated whether or not we have me various forsaken. Has he said this about Demandred? I personally don't think Demandred can be any of the people who have been proposed. Dobrain or Taim are possibilities, but unlikely, as they have nothing to do with &quot;events in the south&quot; (well, Taim might, but there's too many ifs I think). Anyway, I don't see Demandred submitting himself to Rand's leadership one way or the other, so I think we have not met him, or at least he has not been prominent.


created: 2001-09-23 02:11:02
subject: <b>Shut Up</b>
body:
I dind't even read the theory or the posts.  I rushed ahead so that i could tell you just how idiotic a name dobraindred is.  say dobraine=demandred,  dont make up stupid words like:you guessed it, DOBRAINDRED.  the nerve of some people.  By the way.  watch your backs taimandred people.  you're next.  Now to read the theory, and discover exactly how big an a$$ i've made out of myself.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />jerry garcia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 08:49:42
subject: <b>Game of Houses</b>
body:
Demandred was a soldier, just like dobraine is.<br />That alone does not make him demandred, but why doesn't Dobraine play the game of houses? every Cairhienin can play it while sleeping, so you would expect he would at least try to play it. He doesn't, so that makes him not the real dobraine. Demandred is the only 'stupid' one among the chosen. That's why the are the same


created: 2002-09-19 01:31:30
subject: <b>Glimmers says no.</b>
body:
Chosen aren't often successfully tackled by by dudes with knifes, then injuring the attackers with physical force instead of Balefiring them (to save them from their own hurts)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">So I'm just sitting there all la-dee-da <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> when this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> drops out of nowhere, and Wham! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Son of a mother! Me beautiful eye is on fire! So now I'm all like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-07 14:27:29
subject: <b>Correct me if I am wrong, Please</b>
body:
I cant see how Dobraine has anything to do with &quot;events in the south&quot;, but I think I might have something that at the least suggests that Dobraine is not who he claims to be.  Be warned I dont have my books with me and it has been about 2 months since I read the book in question.  I believe in the battle near Ebou Dar Involving Rand and The Seachan, that at one point well into the battle Rand makes a comment upon seeing Dobraine that Dobraine looks as clean as when they first started out to confront the Seachan.  I believe this is also commented on other places in the books. This obviously has the possibility to point in the direction of the use of &quot;The Mask Of Mirrors&quot;.  Well discuss it amongst your selves and let me know what you think.


created: 2001-09-14 21:26:18
subject: <b>WHY WHY WHY???????????</b>
body:
Why can nobody accept that this is an age just like any other? Why is this the LAST battle? I know that is what is said, but if there is a fourth age to come, as is stated in some of the prophecies at the beggining/ends of some books, then this Battle WILL BE WON!!!!! There is no other explination for that other than: &quot;That was the last fourth age&quot; If so, why is this one different? If RJ were to tell the story of the AOL instead of this one, i'll bet it would have been a larger, more cataclysmic battle since it lasted decades. This one will last only a few months, unless RJ wants to make the series into 50 books. This is an age like any other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 01:05:43
subject: <b>I like it man</b>
body:
I think it does have a logic and reason to it even if it isn't proved true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 16:33:31
subject: <b>*clap clap*</b>
body:
*clap clap clap calp clap*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 18:58:27
subject: <b>A point</b>
body:
I would say that if this theory is accurate, saidar will be the first to go, just to keep a nice symmetry to things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 21:31:11
subject: <b>I really like it, but...</b>
body:
I can't figure out what makes it so obvious that our time is part of the Wheel of Time. I don't think it's an important point against your theory if it isn't (it's simply not possible to say if your theory is true or not, in any case), but it bothers me I can't see something that is so obvious to others. There are myths and legends in Randland that corresponds to things in our world, but it's mostly a strange mix, best explained by RJ simply being influenced (and admittedly so) by myths, legends and religions in our time, when creating WOT. Do you have any specific argument pointing towards our world being part of WOT instead of just saying that it's obvious?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 07:19:25
subject: <b>well, here it goes</b>
body:
As to proof that we are part of the Wheel of Time universe, you have the story of Alsbeth, queen of the world (English empire) etc. and Merk and Mosk with flaming darts if I am not wrong (Moscow and America with rockets ...) and a lot more, that you will mostly find in the Eye of the World.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />But I have a problem with the theory. I agree that our time is the first age, but HAVE YOU SEEN ANYONE CHANNELING(well, except my boyufriend, who claims to have balefired the top of a mountain)? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> (does this look like a pumpkin, or am I just hungry?)<br /><br />And, to all you unbelievers out there: this is NOT the last battle. I would be so very dissapointed if it was...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 19:02:43
subject: <b>My quibbles with the theory</b>
body:
First, I'd like to mention I have a misc. theory that explains almost all of the reasons why WoT and Earth are the same planet in different timeframes, called &quot;WoT is Earth - Compiled theory&quot;<br /><br />Okay, now for this theory.  First, there is no real evidence that ages are divided by power use.  Yes, in the Second Age we had the power, and in the third we have tainted saidin, and in our age we don't.  But that doesn't mean age divisions.<br /><br />Second, wolves remember a time before humans channelled.  The first age being the Age of Myths, that would mean that the first age can't have had channelling or the memory fades to legend to myth to nothing is wrong.  Since the fading memory is the basis of this theory, we must assume that the first age had no channelling.  Besides, I would think (for no particular reason other than our number system) that 1st agers don't know anything about 7th agers (7th age - dinosaur times?)<br /><br />MUCH more importantly, almost all of the evidence we have for the WoT-is-Earth theory suggests that current Earth would have to be the third age (my theory of WoT-is-Earth takes it for granted that if it's true, then Earth is the first age).  Most telling is Thom's declaration of his most ancient stories being from the age before the Age of Legends, the Age of Myths (1st age), and these stories being the most grand pieces of evidence for the WoT is Earth theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 19:50:12
subject: <b>The Age of Legends was the Third Age, too....</b>
body:
I'm kicking myself right now for not bringing my copy of <i>The Eye of the World</i> with me right now, but as I recall it starts off by saying something to the effect of &quot;In one age, called the Third Age by some...Lews Therin Telamon...blah blah blah...etc.&quot;<br /><br />Later, it has a person from the Fourth Age talking about the Dragon, or the Chosen One, or some such.  Now, if the Fourth Age new about Lews Therin, it would have to happen AFTER the Age of Legends and BEFORE the current Age.  Thus, both the present and the Age of Legends were the Third Age.<br /><br />I actually like the idea of the Age of Legends being the Second Age much better, but I don't think that's what I would interpret the story to be.  Any thoughts?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 22:02:33
subject: <b>Story from the FIFTH age &amp; its relevance to the OP wheel.</b>
body:
At the end of one of the books (LOC I think) there is a writing from the fifth age as well as the other stuff from the Fourth age, so no, it won't really be the Last 'Last battle'.<br /><br />There's no reason to assume that our world _is_ part of Randland's history just because of the myths &amp; legends link. Earth could just as easily be a portal stone world that has the distinctive feature of 'they can't channel OP' (cf the world where 'the Trollocs won against Artur Hawkwing').<br /><br />The balance of the OP wheel isn't right either way, because the Third Age is also the age of TP channeling. The reason the DO was freed was because Mierin and Beidomon made the bore- to have access to a Power that both men and women could channel. The third age is, therefore the TP&amp;Saidar age if it fits into this theory at all. However, the third age still has Saidin available, just those who used it had the unfortunate habit of rotting or going mad (or both). Personally, I think there being a 'no channeling' age would be unlikely and not a logical twist to the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 09:45:11
subject: <b>My own thoughts on this theory...</b>
body:
First of all, I am new to this posting thing...I have been visiting the site for some time, but never have taken part before.  I just couldn't resist responding to this though...<br /><br />While this theory does sound plausible, you need to take into account that this is a STORY.  The WOT is fiction.  Read any interview with Mr. Jordan, and you will find that the thing that frightens him the most is that people actually believe in channeling and saidar and saidin.  I love these books, and I have reread all of them several times, and I will admit, sometimes the characters seem very real to me - but it is still fiction.  The STORY is based on myths from our world, loosely, and I do believe that some &quot;myths&quot; have a basis in reality - but this is a STORY...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-09-18 19:22:51
subject: <b>True that</b>
body:
I completely agree with the comment right above mine<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 19:49:09
subject: <b>Our world is WOT world</b>
body:
First thing First :<br />I only read the series one time so far. <br />But I think there are several more hints (next to the ones mentioned ( Mysteries and Names etc) before( that show that we are living in another age of the WOT universe.<br /><br />So heres what i found :<br /><br />I remember a scene when Egwene travels to Tanchico in her dreams. She searches the Ter'angreal that could endanger Rand and is already being searched by the black ajah (don&#180;t ask me which book its in as i read that one in german and we got the books splitted up). When she reaches the &quot;museum&quot; in Tanchico she finds something VERY OLD. By the description it is a silver circle with a 3 pointed star inside (one point up, 2 down). She gets a feeling of arrogance and presumption (&#252;berheblichkeit). Correct me if i&#180;m worng but thats a Mercedes Star. Y'know? the car driven by those who can afford it...<br />Furthermore she finds a skeleton of a giraffe (however thats spelled in english) but doesn&#180;t know what she is seeing as it must have died out long ago.<br />So i think that those two things are parts of our age that somehow made it trhough the ages and give us some food for our theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />I agree to the theorie in the main post and maybe these two little aspects&#180;strengthen it a little bit.


created: 2001-11-07 17:14:18
subject: <b>Past or Future?</b>
body:
Why are we basing all of our assumptions on the fact that Robert Jordan intend Tarmon Gaidon to happen before our time.  Because I believe in the Crown of Swords, Graendal walks into Sammael's rooms and they have 'glowbulbs'  could it be possible that this is occuring in the future, to our world in the past?


created: 2001-12-02 13:05:46
subject: <b>The Portal Stones</b>
body:
I have to say I agree with your theory, however, correct me if I'm wrong, but the portal stones were made in an age before the age of legends, weren't they? The people of the age of Legends didn't understand them or anything. And they must have been made using the power or they wouldn't have been activated with the power. So it seems to me that the first Age may have been the age of the Most powerful channellers, and something happenned like the breaking in the age of legends. Maybe Shai' tan was born, and the most powerful wielder of his time discovered the secrets of life and death and the wheel and tried to make himself on the same level as the creator, so that the Creator was forced to lock him up, or maybe, the age of legends was the third age too, or something, and in the second age the things were made, and it was the age of philosophy or something, and oh, yeah, after Saidin was cleansed the fourth age did start, as I recall.


created: 2001-12-02 16:39:37
subject: <b>I deffinately agree, but one point is wrong</b>
body:
We can't be in the age were channeling is gone, because i can channel.want proof? i'm using small weaves of air to push the keys on my keyboard. how can i prove i am? how can YOU proove im NOT?<br />anyway, at the end of the third age, the M/F channelers must link to such an extent that the sources merged, as i have taught my sister to channel, and the source, now called the devine source, has been tainted, as my sister is mad, and im nearly...mad...but iiiim using my,, last bit of sanity to type this.... and using, my first bit of madness       to actua..*cough* actually ... punctuate it....... AAAAHHHHHHH HAHAHAHA!!!!!! I WANNA BE A DENTIST!!!!<br /><br />ps does anyone know how to stop from inserting all those faces everytime i post, its real annoyng<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 19:45:25
subject: <b>How could anyone not agree?</b>
body:
First of all, I'd like to say good job on the theory. I've been looking throught he however many hundreds of theories there are now for one like this.<br /><br />To expand on the ending of the theory, I sort of figured out a few reasons for your ending - male and female channelers going mad and breaking the world. I think you're right about that and I'm guessing that since EVERYBODY who can channel goes mad and dies, the taint will fade away. There's sort of evidence from the AOL when Saidin was tainted. The men who could channel went mad a lot faster than the men in the supposed 'third age'. So I think the taint is like a parasite. Without any hosts to target, it starves to death.<br /><br />Even if no one ever reads my addition to your theory, I still wanted to add my thoughts to it, since my idea apparantly isn't enough to be a full theory on its own.


created: 2002-01-24 00:16:56
subject: <b>Agreement with Yurian</b>
body:
I do not understand exactly what you were saying about Sha&#8217;tain.  Are you saying the DO that we know of, was actually a powerful male Aes Sedai in an age several ages ago or infinite ages ago <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  that gained enough  power that he felt he could challenge the creator?  Was there not a DO of sorts prior to this Aes Sadai&#8217;s desire for ultimate power?  It could explain a lot of things.  For instance, might Rand meet this same fate?  Thanks, this could prove excellent ground for a theory.<br /><br />Bytheway, did ya&#8217;ll know that much of the Old Tongue is actually Hebrew (Shayol Ghul, Tormon Gai&#8217;don, ect..) only slightly manipulated.  Food for thought eh?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 00:29:17
subject: <b>Re: My own thoughts on this theory...</b>
body:
I don't know about other people, but I think at least some of us speculate on this not because we think it's true, but just because it's interesting. When I think about it, I am well aware that it is fictional, and I'm thinking more of the possibility of there being an Age in the WoT universe that is &quot;like&quot; our own world, as opposed to an Age that &quot;is&quot; our own. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Out of my mind, back in 5 minutes.<br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 20:09:16
subject: <b>Tolkien Rip-off?</b>
body:
I think this theory is highly improbable. The main reason for this is that there is really no evidence for it. The similarities to our world, or our myth, is inevitable as long as RJ is writing the story in this world.<br /><br />I also think an importatnt argument against this theory is that it would be a rip-off of Tolkien. (Read Akallabeth anyone?) Tolkien's world gradually transforms into our world. First the world is made round (it was flat in his 1.st and 2.nd ages) at the end of the 2.nd age, and then the representatives of the old, magical world (the elves and the Mayar) leaves. I think this concept is far to important to JRRT's world for RJ to plagiarise!


created: 2002-02-13 08:52:08
subject: <b>I've read only the theory, not the blackboard, but...</b>
body:
The theory goes right, but i strongly disagree it. maybe just because i don't like it: i can't stand anyting related our world (i.e. the Black sword series of Weis and Hickmann)<br />I really hope that jordan will not fall in this trap.<br />anyway I haven't any element to deny this theory.


created: 2002-05-23 13:27:10
subject: <b>Wolves</b>
body:
Somebody mentioned the wolves remembering a time before channeling.  Do we know how far back the wolves memory goes?  Is there a time before wolves?  What i'm getting at is if the wolves have the collective memory to remember so far back as a time before channeling...do they remember a time before that when there was channeling...like a whole turning of the wheel?  I know that hasn't been mentioned but the wolves offer a chance to figure out the turning of the wheel.


created: 2002-07-30 14:58:05
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Does that make the loss of Atlantis the end of the previous third age?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-04 03:00:40
subject: <b>Supercontinent</b>
body:
I remember reading some kind of Science literature that was discussing Pangea(supercontinent) and it struck me that the world had a &quot;breaking&quot; of sorts a few times as the supercontinents seperated and rejoined numerous times and our continents are shifting towardds eachother once more... <br />just a thought really


created: 2004-09-22 20:19:12
subject: <b>An Unexpected Ending....</b>
body:
RJ has said on several occasions that the ending of the series will be totally unexpected. How about a Planet of the Apes-style finish with Mat and Tuon walking along a beach in Seanchan past a fallen but familiar looking statue?!!


created: 2001-09-15 13:54:43
subject: <b>nawww</b>
body:
We'll learn about the last battle first hand, in fact I bet by the time we get there, RJ will spend three books on it.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-16 07:23:16
subject: <b>Is there something wrong with my head?</b>
body:
I don't think I want to hear about the Last Battle first hand. It would be a dissapointment, I think.<br />NOOOO! DON'T SHOOT ME!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 21:21:28
subject: <b>Waste Of Space!</b>
body:
I feel kinda weird about ripping on this theory but i needed to for the simple fact its obvio2us that well see the last battel Jordan has practicly started to sell ring tickets for the bloody event! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 19:55:47
subject: <b>Well, that's the point!</b>
body:
I think RJ has been WAAAAY too obvious with the Last Battle thing, and we all know that Mr. Jordan is anything but obvious.  I think that i agree with Katiya that we will not actually see it, but will her about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 10:54:09
subject: <b>We won't hear of or see it.</b>
body:
We will al die the moment Rand balefires the DO. For the Creator will come down riding in it's little red wagon singing the famous muffin man song. And Rand will be mad and tired and accidently balefire the creator. The Wheel will then be shattered when it &quot;Sheathes the Sword&quot;(or was it blade, ohh well) Lews and or the horn folk will arrive and help Rand channel a balfire that wipes away everything.<br />And all that will be in the books is.<br />&quot;Ha and my wife said I couldn't rip the world  off.&quot;<br /><br /><br />Pray I'm wrong. But don't track me down. And don't attempt assasination.<br /><br />Death is my brother.


created: 2002-04-22 14:33:05
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
well, it was pretty raw.... not to mention holey.... but it was good... holey... but good...<br /><br />it actually made me read the book again... hehehehe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 01:45:29
subject: <b>And strangely...</b>
body:
Parts of this &quot;humorous&quot; theory end up being true.  Especially the part about Perrin wandering around the wilderness crying &quot;Faile...&quot;<br />Uncanny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity....<br /><b><i>I AM THAT LINE!!</i></b><br />Please don't tell me that I'm normal, or I'll have to get professionals to set you straight.<br />http://www.geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 00:32:35
subject: <b>Your close SirKrane</b>
body:
I believe that you may be thinking of the Amayar. Thos are the people that live on the island of Tremalking (and possibly other sea folk controled islands). Their beliefs in a pacifistic philosphy called the Water Way is very similar to the Way of the Leaf that the original Dashain Aiel lived by. Also their view of the physical world as a mere illusion is very close to the Aiel belief that life truly is but a dream.<br /><br />   By the way one hole I can punch in this theory would be that we know of one Sea Folk gal (Shalon somethin or other) that has had carnal relations with one of the shore bound as they refer to all others. If the sea folk were different creatures with illusory weaves then one would think that Ailil (the Cairhienin woman that Shalon had an affair with) might have noticed something odd and told Verin about it.<br /><br />   If you're talking about the Amayar living under illusion weaves then that is a little more plausible, but only a little. I will also agree that whatever secret they hold, they are still human.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 07:34:48
subject: <b>Yes, a real stew.</b>
body:
First of all you should not mix the Sea Folk and the Amayar. They are as different as anyone could be, both in looks and religion. You say they are dark, yes the sea folk are dark, but I think I can remember the Amayar being fair. Also, you talk about the time of Illusion as a Sea Folk prophecy, but I seem to remember it being an Amayar one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I agree that the Amayar seem like the Aiel that fled in boats after the breaking, or perhaps the Sea Folk. I'm not quite sure about that..<br /><br />If, however, I should accept your theory as being the Truth, I would mention Ursule le Guin or something. She wrote some books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> about a place called Earthsea, and there you have something called human dragons. That is dragons in human form, but with the knowledge and power of a dragon.<br />I do not thing that has anything to do with anything, though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br />Just rambling on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 02:40:28
subject: <b>this one be a real hearty stew...</b>
body:
I think the Amayar are hiding a city that survived the breaking. perhaps this is why they are so closemouthed. they may not trust the aes sedai with it or maybe its part of their prophecies that the Dragon (or whatever they call Rand) will come and revive all the AOL stufflike shocklances... that could make for an interesting last battle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 22:58:06
subject: <b>Hmmm Intresting, But Impossible</b>
body:
Lets sit back and actually think about the odds that they would have been able to hide somthing so enormous. First lets think about the forsaken wouldnt they have possibly mentioned somthing about the fact the fact there are aliens among us <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> = second how would they have been able to hide their selves from two thousand years of aes sedai contact however brief. but nice imagination. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> =<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 17:21:18
subject: <b>A second Aiel</b>
body:
It was the members on the island that had the proficy, not the sea folk.  everything i have seen says that the sea folk<br />will have nothing to do with the islanders.  they will trade for them and rule over them, however, the islanders rule <br />themselves.  Doesn't this sound a little like the Jenn Aiel?  The Jenn withdrew from the fighting Aiel and made their own little<br /> community.  Also the islander follow the water way.  Like someone said above they sound like Aile.  In the last age, Aiel served<br />Aes Sedia (sp?).  While it has been thought that all of the remaning Aiel left on the carivan route with the an'greal etc., maybe some<br /> were trapped on ships.  I seem to remember that a Sea Folk had said that they knew nothing of the water in the begining, but were<br /> blown away by the wind. Wow this got bigger than i thought it would.<br /><br />CAI <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> foster brother to Arther Pendragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Knight of the Round Table <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-24 14:00:35
subject: <b>Re: the sea folk stew</b>
body:
This can not be so. Only humans it seems can be able to harness and use the one power. If they are not human how can the wave mistresses embrace saidar? We know that they had to have weaved flows into the weather bowl to restore the weather so are you saying that not only humans can embrace the source. If so where do you draw the line at Ogier's?


created: 2002-06-12 08:02:21
subject: <b>The Secret of Nym?</b>
body:
I read another post that said the Tinkers will soon learn their lost song.  On the same thread was a post that said that the song would not matter because there are no more Nym to weave the songs with the Aiel and the Ogiers.  Maybe the Amayar are really a group of Aiel who are hiding some of the ancient Nym?  If that were so, then RJ would have a way of tying up two threads he has already started (Tinkers or Aiel and Ogier) and also inspire some hope for after TG?  One can only hope.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 15:50:48
subject: <b>Man...</b>
body:
Another example of taking any two random things and making a new theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-25 18:26:15
subject: <b>haha</b>
body:
well it would be cool if this were true...although kinda disappointing, a little too tabloid-ish for RJ. i think its much more likely that they used to be Aiel, and their part in this is that they have &quot;the song&quot;. Which is most likely not a real song, its a euphemism like the Aiel calling battle &quot;the dance&quot;


created: 2004-08-09 19:00:03
subject: <b>uhhhh don't think so</b>
body:
<br /><br />first shadowspawn don't or can't channel and second<br />what are you smokin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />&quot;Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-20 09:48:30
subject: <b>What hasn't been said allready?</b>
body:
1. The Seafolk are secretive to hide their channelers.<br /><br />2. That a seafolk quoted something an Aiel said does not prove anything. If an Amayar said it, it might be further evidence that the Amayar are from the same root as the Aiel.<br /><br />3. In Rhuidean, it was a dreamer that said the phrase. Maybe there are dreamers among the Amayar as well: dream-illusion?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 20:05:52
subject: <b>Not tryin to correct you or anything...</b>
body:
Vandene and Adeleas didn't go straigt from one end of the world to the other.  If my memory serves me, the twins were in Salidar.  They were chosen to go along with Nynaeve and party.  Anyways, nobody even knew that the Seanchan were going to invade Ebou Dar, at least not in time to inform the sisters about it.  Well, that's my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 20:42:01
subject: <b>That's no problem.</b>
body:
Well, the Salidar thing has been brought up, but not much indicates they went to Salidar and were sent to Ebou Dar. They rather were on their way to Ebou Dar, and Salidar just happened to be on the way. It's also hard to see why they would go to Salidar at all if they were prepared to just harry off wherever Romanda sent them. It's more likely it was only a stop on their pre-planned journey.<br /><br />The Seanchan invading Ebou Dar would have been a quite natural guess for anyone in Falme. The Seanchan had already cleaned out villages almost all along the west coast after channelers. The next step was naturally to stop their advance, possibly going back home or continue east-bound. This should have been pretty clear for those seeing what they had done in Falme and heard the stories about them from people in the West. Verin would be clever enough to see it coming. No one NOT in Falme or at least far West could have guessed though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 07:39:16
subject: <b>Has this been posted earlier on?</b>
body:
Or did I read it on the message board?<br />Doesn't matter.<br />I still like it.<br />But I also still think Adelas was a Darkfriend, and I think Verin would have known about it, since I like the Verin theories about her being a Black Ajah- hunter...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 08:23:44
subject: <b>Yes, I posted it first on the MB</b>
body:
Regarding Adeleas Black, I think we have very little to go on. It's almost certain that Vandene did not kill Adeleas because Adeleas was Black (comments made by Vandene after the event would break the three Oaths, if that is what happened), and Liandrin is still a better candidate for having warded the Draghkar. The only thing I can remember pointing to Adeleas being Black was her interpretation of some Black prophecy, and I'm not sure the Blacks had any reason to hide the meaning of that so close to the Falme encounter. Maybe Adeleas was Black, but I think very little points to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 11:26:39
subject: <b>Thought on the seanchan...</b>
body:
...Was it really that easy to guess that the Seanchan would eventually hit Ebou Dar? Recall that after Falme they fell back an took awhile to regroup. By the time they hit again they were doing a fairly good job of keeping their presence out west a secret from those in the east in the dark about things. No one seemed to know more about the coast countries than the fact that they were in chaos. When the Seanchan hit Ebou Dar it probably surprised most everyone even Verin.<br /><br />   Also I recall that one of the sisters (can't recall if it was Vandene or Adeleas) had given Elayne a scolding for endagering the secret of the Kin that Aes Sedai had so closely held. That tends to indicate that they would have been fine with leaving Kin alone, rather than being there for them specifically<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 11:48:06
subject: <b>Regarding the Kin and guessing Seanchan business</b>
body:
It was of course impossible for those in the East to guess that the Seanchan would continue east, because most of them wouldn't even know the Seanchan had struck at all. The only one who could know something would be those who had actually been in Falme, and seen what the Seanchan could do. It would be obvious that the Seanchan meant business, and it should have been an obvious risk that the Seanchan wouldn't quit because of one defeat. I don't say anyone would have been SURE they would continue eastbound, but it would definitely be a possibility and risk that could have been acknowledged by those in Falme, such as Verin.<br /><br />Adeleas and Vandene had been talking about runaways during the trip to Ebou Dar. It is a possibility that their trip had NOTHING to do with the Kin, but it's still the only thing that makes sense (we know of nothing else Vandene or Adeleas have even hinted about doing in Ebou Dar). Exactly what they wanted with the Kin is also not certain, but Adeleas and Vandene does not seem to know more about them than sisters in general, which is basically that the Kin can channel and pick up runaways from the Tower. This could be enough to make them want to somehow move the Kin to a safer neighbourhood, but hardly much else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 13:03:55
subject: <b>About Vandene</b>
body:
You said that the sisters are both Brown, but Vandene is actually Green. Okay, I know, I know, it doesn't matter but I still wanted to clear that.<br /><br />Anyways, I think you have something in this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Ciel<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 13:52:53
subject: <b>Why to Salidar and the runaways</b>
body:
The reason that Vandene and Adelas were chosen to go to Salidar with Elayne and Nynaeve is simple:  They are old.  Remember, Elayne and Nynaeve should be able to boss around any Aes Sedai they want to, because of their strength.  It took some time for the girls to realize this.  The Salidar Aes Sedai wanted to maintain some control over Elayne and Nynaeve, they kept deferring to the sisters because of their great age.  Once Elayne went ballistic, she took over the group, but even after it happened, she really didn't believe it had happened, because of their ages.<br /><br />As far as runaways, I believe the reason they were sent there was to look for the runaway <i>accepted</i>, Shemerin.  (The reasons should be obvious) They went to Ebou Dar to look for her because Aes Sedai often find runaways end up there, because of the Kin.  <br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 15:06:18
subject: <b>Answers to two last balckboard notes</b>
body:
To Ciel: I actually said both Verin and Adeleas is Brown which is in fact true. It's Vandene who is green. When rereading my own post, I almost corrected it myself before noticing that it was no mistake...<br /><br />To aerocontrols: I like the Shemerin explanation, but it doesn't fly. Shemerin was loyal to the Tower and we have no reason to believe any Salidar Aes Sedai or for that matter, the Namelle sisters, knew she had run off. Secondly, it doesn't even begin to explain why Adeleas and Vandene would harry off to Salidar in the first place. Furthermore, why would Romanda send another two sisters to Ebou Dar as escorts? The control in Ebou Dar was already held by Merilille, and that did not change when Vandene and Adeleas arrived. Nothing indicates that any new info came to Ebou Dar with the Namelle sisters either, so as far as we know, very little reason existed for Romanda to send them. Even if my theory is incorrect, it still makes most sense that the Vandene and Adeleas were on their way to Ebou Dar for one reason or the other, and that their objective did not change by their visit to Salidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 15:45:59
subject: <b>Shemerin</b>
body:
The girls saw Elaida's notice (in the world of dreams) that Shemerin was reduced to Accepted, and the Salidar Aes Sedai didn't believe her (That a sister could be lowered to accepted).  Then <i>they</i> saw a notice that the Accepted Shemerin had run away, and was ordered arrested, which Elayne tried not to be smug about.  I think it's before the part where Elayne and Siuan save the sisters from the nightmare.<br /><br />I didn't offer this as a reason why Adeleas and Vandene would go to Salidar.  I just offered it as why Sisters would be sent to Salidar with Elayne and Nynaeve.<br /><br />The reason (in my opinion) to send Vandene and Adeleas was to continue the farce that Elayne and Nynaeve weren't <i>really</i> full sisters, thus they could not be trusted even to travel to Ebou Dar alone.  Plus it would be embarrassing for the Salidar Aes Sedai to send only Elayne and Nynaeve to search for Shemerin, they could not be reminded that they were right where Aes Sedai were wrong.<br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 17:03:27
subject: <b>Thanks aerocontrols</b>
body:
I had forgotten that particular thing. I have no trouble seeing Romanda sending someone with the girls, with the extra (possibly so-called) mission of informing the sisters in Ebou Dar about Shemerin's disappearance (and possibly try to find her).<br /><br />But it does not change much. If Romanda thought of it as an important mission, she would almost certainly have sent someone she really trusted. Nothing indicates she has any relation to the Namelle sisters, and as 70-year retirees, they would be far from her first choices. It's more likely Vandene and Adeleas came to Salidar, claiming to be headed for Ebou Dar, and Romanda, seeing her mission as semi-important at most, took advantage of the situation, sending them as &quot;escorts&quot; to the girls, instead of someone else. She might or might not have included info about Shemerin for them to take to the sisters in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />But none of this changes much, as I said. Your explanation is not so much an alternative explanation, but a parallell one (Romanda's intention might simply differ from the Namelle sisters'). Adeleas and Vandene has not mentioned anything about their plans but &quot;runaways&quot; and as far as Aes Sedai are concerned, that's about the only interesting thing that can be connected to Ebou Dar. Adeleas and Vandene almost certainly had some mission apart from going to Salidar, and Ebou Dar is one of the only things that seems reasonable to assume connected with that mission. My theory is not  much perturbed by their visiting Salidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 17:36:42
subject: <b>Sorry, Yubi</b>
body:
I was critiqueing your theory, not trying to disprove it... While it's mostly speculation, it 'fits' and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Verin and the Sisters have a connection.  I just wanted to point out those couple of things.<br /><br />aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 23:08:37
subject: <b>Are they on the same sides?</b>
body:
I still have trouble trusting the Namelle sisters.  Ever since the Drakhar attack on Moiraine, I have not been satisfied that both of them are on the up and up.  A Black Sister may be able to ward a drakhar, but is there anywhere an example of one of the Black Ajah being able to command any kind of shadowspawn?  I haven't found any yet. Liandrin wasn't even that high up in the Black Ajah.  We've been allowed to assume she sent it and shielded it, but it doesn't hold true.  One of the sisters is more than she seemed.


created: 2001-09-17 00:10:25
subject: <b>Adeleas or Vandene Black?</b>
body:
Well, we don't know, but if Liandrin was not in a position to ward a Draghkar (because Blacks can't or something like that), Adeleas or Vandene wouldn't either. They are certainly not Forsaken, and has shown quite little that could indicate even being Black Ajah (although one of them definitely could be, I doubt both are). Unless Adeleas and Vandene is shown to be a &quot;special&quot; kind of Darkfriend, I'll assume Liandrin simply could be the one warding it. Remember that to ward something you would probably not need more than being close to it. Mesaana or som other Forsaken could have ordered the Draghkar to allow Liandrin (or for that matter Adeleas or Vandene) to ward it.<br /><br />When I talked about little pointing to Adeleas being Black above, I forgot to mention one thing. Insects weren't touching Adeleas and some thought that would indicate her being Black. I don't think it does, but it's definitely an argument for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 18:41:50
subject: <b>If the sisters were headed to Ebou Dar they wouldn't stop at Salidar</b>
body:
Salidar is way out of the sister's way for almost any route they could have traveled.  <br /><br />I have often wondered how the sisters found out so quickly and why they decided to join Salidar.  It doesn't make any sense.<br /><br />Verin is out of the question unless she used pigeon's.  Verin didn't know about Salidar until she arrived at Caemlyn in LoC and we pretty much know what she has done since.<br /><br />Two possiblities jump out.  Either one or both of them is BA which begs the question what does BA hope to gain from having them in the Borderlands in a secluded town.<br /><br />The second possibility is that they are some of the sisters that Cadsuane gathered.  She had eyes and ears that spied on Moiraine.  Maybe Cadsuane knew about Moiraines connection to Vandene and Adeleas and got Vandene to help.<br />(Iffy I know but Moiraine thinks as if she has visited fairly often).<br /><br />I would have to review the timeline but I think the Cadsuane hypothesis fits well if we assume that Cadsuane was able to find out about the WT splitting rather quickly.<br />Cadsuane is sort of in the area either chasing Taim or finding out what her eyes and ears say about Moirain in Shienar.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 13:11:36
subject: <b>Goodguy? Moghedian Clone</b>
body:
An interesting, if somewhat tenuous theory. I think Verin's actions, most especially with the sisters from Dumai's Wells shows her to be very much a manipulative spider. Also, at one point Verin is about to slip something in Cadsuane's tea, either something to kill her, or mroe likely in the context loosen her tongue, but Cadsuane starts confi8ding in her on her own. Her very sly and crafty use of compulsion, and the way she evry obviosuly dupes everybody.<br /><br />She's up to something major, that much we all agree on. Her journal we learn is all in code. People think it nothing but notes on flwoers and animals, but we don't know what it really is. She very very obviously plays at the absent minded woolhead brown. We can see her take on this role everytime our POV slips away from her. However when we're in ehr head it's not the least bit foggy, it's in fact incredibly sharp and precise.<br /><br />Finally, let's not forget the key peice of advice. When Moiraine tells Rand not to trust any other Aes Sedai, she specifically names Verin as one to be wary of.<br /><br />I Think our pleasantly plump little brown is very much a spdier to rival Moghedian, the question is who's side is she really on?


created: 2005-08-28 21:45:20
subject: <b>70 years ago</b>
body:
There seem to be a lot of mentions of &quot;70 years ago&quot; regarding Aes Sedai and the White Tower.<br /><br />Verin &quot;made a mistake&quot; 70 years ago, and has been working on something important ever since.<br /><br />A novice, Zarya, ran away 70 years ago.<br /><br />Adeleas and Vandene retired 70 years ago.<br /><br />Thought: All of these events had to do with the Black Ajah.  My guess... Verin tried and failed to unmask the Black Ajah back then (her mistake), and the consequences included A &amp; V going into retirement, and Z's runaway.  <br /><br />


created: 2001-09-16 11:38:58
subject: <b>Maybe just to be different</b>
body:
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but I did have one thought. If Thom is indeed just and Andoran and so skilled at the game of houses it would serve to break the stereotype that Cairhienin are the ones skilled at Das Damaer. Robert Jordan seems to have been spending a lot of time in the books demonstrating how often stereotypes can be wrong, particularly with the Aiel and their interactions with 'wetlanders'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 14:28:25
subject: <b>Different approach</b>
body:
I don&#180;think that Thom&#180;s skills in Daes Daemar have to do with his native country <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />. I believe it&#180;s rather a result from his former connection with Morgase who has to be a master of the Game of Houses or she would not have succeeded in securing the Lion Throne for Trakand and her. Being that close to her for a quite long time, he inhaled it and became a master of it himself. Just look at Rand how quickly he adopted it after freeing Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 14:30:54
subject: <b>I don't know.............</b>
body:
Isn't Thom taller than Mat? He is supposed to be of above average height for a mainlander, and carhenien's are shorter people. Over 6'1 for a carhenien would be like 6'7 for normal Two Rivers folk.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 16:38:42
subject: <b>correction...</b>
body:
Thom taught Morgase about the Game of Houses.  She mentions it in one of her PoV's while with the Whitecloaks.


created: 2001-09-16 19:04:07
subject: <b>Err...guys? Isn't Thom Cairhienen? I seem to recall from the books</b>
body:
that Thom is from Cairhien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 21:16:08
subject: <b>What Brought This Up Anyway?</b>
body:
Just Wondering <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-16 23:52:55
subject: <b>Only a fool thinks of where he is from</b>
body:
<br /><br />   Your all wrong, Thom is from Shara!  How can any of you not see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 02:11:42
subject: <b>I was just thinking....</b>
body:
That's all. It's probably not correct, I didn't think it was, but I put it on the MB and there seemed to be general agreement it was a possibility, so I sent it in. I know the name isn't everything, but....I just thought it'd be kinda cool, and maybe add to Thom's mystique. Ater all, we don;t know anything about his past before he came to the Andoran court.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 10:25:37
subject: <b>I, for one...</b>
body:
think you are right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />But I think perhaps his mother is Andoran. Or perhaps his father (I never could figure out from which parent the children get their last names). That would explain his looks, and I,too, think that he grew up in Cairhien and that Moiraine knew of him.<br /><br />Nice thinking<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 14:44:47
subject: <b>agreement</b>
body:
i agree wholeheartedly<br /><br />it all makes sence to me, its almost like i had an epiphany just reading it, so, yeah, good job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is easier to stab someone in the back<br />  then to look them in the eye.<br />Society is built upon this principle<br />  and is universal amongst those who rule.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 10:32:57
subject: <b>It would be cool . . .</b>
body:
I like the idea of Thom knowing Moiraine from before the series, although it's my opinion he would only know her in a very minor way, no major connection, otherwise he would have reacted more. <br />Speaking of breaking stereotypes, if Thom is going to break the Cairhien-only stereotype of the Game of Houses, then perhaps what will finally draw Thom to Moiraine permanently will be her finally thawing.  I mean, the stereotype of Aes Sedai is that they are all bloody manipulating without much compassion in them (this is certainly how Thom sees them), so if Moiraine would unbend a little bit, get off her high horse and show that she's got emotion too, then Thom might well accept her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 00:41:36
subject: <b>I just got an answer for the genetics thing!!!</b>
body:
You said Thom's father would have to be part Andoran to, because Cairhienin have dark eyes(dominant gene) and you must have two parents with blue-eye gened to have blue eyes (because it is a recessive gene). Well, Elayne and Gawyn both have blue eyes. Their mother is a blue-eyed Andoran, their father a dark-eyed Cairhienin. Then there is Temaile Kinderoe, a &quot;fragile woman from Cairhien with large blue eyes.&quot; So obviously, some Cairhienin do have the gene for blue eyes, or blue eyes. <br />Also, I wasn't meaning to say that Thom and Moiraine actually knew each other well, just that they may have met briefly a long time ago, been at the same court, or even just known of each other (like if Thom was at the Cairhienin court and heard about &quot;the king's niece who had gone to train as Aes Sedai&quot; or &quot;had just become Aes Sedai&quot;. Surely that would be news, or gossip.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 10:10:09
subject: <b>Thom &amp; Moiraine did know each other</b>
body:
When they first came face to face (when Moiraine, Lan , and the Gleeman appear in Emonds Field)at the beginning of EotW Moiraine refers to Thom as a &quot;court bard&quot;.  He downplays it, saying he's &quot;just a gleeman with stories that she will like&quot;.  This clearly supports the fact that they either knew or knew of each other before showing up in Emonds Field.


created: 2002-03-13 13:12:00
subject: <b>Thom is from Cairahein</b>
body:
according to the wheel of time RPG, which RJ checked for validity, Thom IS Cairahienian... i can't spell..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Enin Bar'nast<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 07:56:43
subject: <b>He's Andoran</b>
body:
I agree w/ L.L. Gaidin (sorry, I hate spelling out your name).  A well-travelled and worldly court bard who was the lover of Mogase, a master of the Game of Houses, would likely know a lot about the Game.<br /><br />It is possible he grew up there or spent a great deal of time there as a bard/gleeman.  Native countries have little to do with it.<br /><br />Plus he's tall and blue-eyed, like everyone's been noting.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-06-15 19:57:06
subject: <b>Come on!</b>
body:
He had a Seanchan father and a mother from Shara. Can't you see it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Unknown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Celtic warrior</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 07:19:31
subject: <b>Names?</b>
body:
Liam Is an Irish name<br /><br />But You can be called liam if born in england.<br /><br />Names don't necessarily mean that you are born in the place the name originates.


created: 2003-05-28 01:05:15
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
the conversation in the stone of tear proves that they knew 'of' each other not each other. thom will become moir warder when she returns. most liekly by means of saving-prolonging his life (ala birgitte).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>NEKRO</b><br /><b>VIVA LA REAGAN REVOLUCION</b><br /> <br /><b>Forget the dog he will sh<i></i>it in the den today a gat is mans best friend</b><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-13 11:00:53
subject: <b>Lovers?</b>
body:
i think they vaguely knew each other. wudnt that be really cute? wen they met, thom stared at her for a long time before speaking, and she knew he was a courtbard. woouldnt it be great if we found out that both, at some time in disguise (moiraine disguised and hiding from the Black and thom disguised and hiding from Morgase) had met and, this might be slightly far-fetched, had been lovers? moiraine's 1st man? and without their disguises they vaguely recognized each other 10 years later......  OOOOOOOOOO brainwave------- thats why lan distruts him so much, because he recognized thom even if moiraine didnt, and lan didnt want him travelling with them in case moiraine remembered..................<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 10:07:43
subject: <b>ummmmm......no</b>
body:
one constant in all the books has been this:  injuries in TAR are there when you awake, and if you die in the Dream, you never wake up...sorry your basic premise is flawed...thus, so is the whole theory...but thank you for playing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 14:35:53
subject: <b>Geez...</b>
body:
It took me ten minutes to say what you said in two.  <br /><br />Does that make me long-winded?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 14:49:38
subject: <b>hey now..</b>
body:
dont be so mean, you could give constructive critisizem, instead of just bashing the Hell out of everybody that has flawed information, there is no need to be so harsh, and you are not being as harsh as i think that you are, i apologize, but i just thought it should be said, oh, by the way, this goes for all theories, not just this one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is easier to stab someone in the back<br />  then to look them in the eye.<br />Society is built upon this principle<br />  and is universal amongst those who rule.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 16:14:15
subject: <b>Another hole to punch...</b>
body:
...Just for the record I'm not trying to be harsh or anything. Just offering constructive criticism.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />   Robert Jordan has made such a big to do about the fact that ALL of the info we need to figure out who done it is given to us by the time Asmo makes his final curtain call. The true power wasn't introduced to us as an audience until book 6. So the idea that Rahvin might've used it to get out of T'A'R don't fly.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />   I will however give you a thumbs up for thinking outside th box.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 19:04:14
subject: <b>Graendel Killed Asmodean</b>
body:
Re-read the books.  Graendel is the only one who is sure Asmodean is dead.  The reason why she belives this is because she killed him, plain and simple.  Remember that four forsaken were involved in that plan against Rand, Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammuel and Graendel.  Each of the first three showed some involvement: Lanfear and Sammuel attacked Rand while the Shaido attacked Chairhien, and Rahvin fought Rand in Camelyn.... so that left Graendel, who stayed in the background until Asmodean stumbled upon her.  Again, when you re-read the books, you will see that she is the only one who is sure Asmodean is dead.


created: 2001-09-18 19:11:25
subject: <b>He's dead</b>
body:
1) Can't point out irrelevence of number 1 too much.  They're in the flesh, he's dead.<br />2) It's a pretty big bar of balefire.  &quot;Human size&quot; He's dead.<br />3) If the DO can't revive from balefire, can he stop it?  No.  He's dead.<br />4) Pretty damn good illusion if you ask me.  Read that part again.  He's dead.<br />5) Pretty good guess if it was a guess, seeing as it was right.  Besides, he knows when the TP is tapped, and he didn't really avoid it.  He's dead.<br />6) See point 1 for this one too.<br /><br />And one big, huge, gigantic point you overlooked completely annihilates all of your theorizing.  <br /><br />AVIENDHA, MAT, AND CO. ARE ALIVE!!!!<br /><br />They were kind of dead, then revived.  Balefire could do that, Saidin couldn't, Saidar couldn't, and the TP probably couldn't, and why would anyone who used it want to do that???<br /><br />In conclusion, he's dead.<br /><br />Other than those holes, the theory is pretty good. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 10:48:40
subject: <b>One little flaw in Raserei&#180;s comment</b>
body:
Be&#180;lal and Rahvin are not the only humans we&#180;ve seen killed by balefire: What about Liah at Shadar Logoth? But that&#180;s certainly not important concerning this theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 12:53:24
subject: <b>Graendal...</b>
body:
killed him! Graendal killed jim! Graendal Graendal Graendal killed him! RJ said so himself RJ said so himself RJ said so himself!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 23:42:26
subject: <b>It's obviously...</b>
body:
MICKEY MOUSE!!! Who would have saw it coming?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aimless Wanderer<br />Coiner of the term &quot;point whore&quot;<br />Meeky's heartless ex-warder<br /><i>&quot;Narg no hurt&quot;</i>---Narg</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 10:44:32
subject: <b>Just out of curiosity . . .</b>
body:
Are we absolutely certain that a bad guy killed Asmodean?<br />I mean, there are some good guys out there with motives.  I once heard a theory that Lanfear was the one who did Asmo in; if Lanfear, why not Moiraine? I can't recall any specific examples, but she was probably not too happy with Rand for picking a Forsaken as an advisor.<br />Okay, so Moiraine's a little ridiculous as a candidate.  I'd say Cadsuane, but I don't think we had met her by then; my next choice from the &quot;good guy&quot; faction would be Verin.  On the other hand, it doesn't strike me as Verin's style . . . <br />All right, all right, I know it was the forsaken.  I was just trying to think outside the box. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 15:49:45
subject: <b>It was Graendal, but the TP Theory is intresting</b>
body:
Graendal killed him. If it would have been Rahvin, Asmo would be back to life when he was Balefired (Mat and Avi were brought back to life, so why not Asmo?)<br />However, the TP theory is quite interesting. It would be a possibility to use the TP to escape, but we would probably have noticed Rahvin in that case. It was said that one must ask the DO to use the TP. I cannot remember Moridin did this every time. It would be interesting to se Rahvin again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />For the honor of J.R.R.Tolkien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Gambler, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> Tharand, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 11:43:39
subject: <b>It was Rand</b>
body:
Asmo dies at the end of the book, and in all the next book or 2, only the forsaken make any comment on his disappearance. What about Rand, his teacher vansishes suddenly and he doesnt even notice?!?!? Obviously he killed him.


created: 2001-10-02 08:58:47
subject: <b>Rand does miss him</b>
body:
At some point in Rands POV he wonders what happened to Asmo - he definitely didn't kill him.<br /><br />I read on another site an explanation that when Rand was chasing Rahvin he came across 2 servants.  Apparently he mentions that it was strange because he hadn't seen any others around the palace.  The theory goes that it was Graendal and Sammael in disguise who had come for a meeting with Rahvin.  They hide in the servants hall and one - or both - of them are still there the next day when Asmo opens the door looking for wine.  It seems to make sense and supports the Graendal theory.


created: 2001-10-17 13:40:07
subject: <b>Graendal killed Asmodean</b>
body:
in an RJ chat (CNN i think) he tells anyone who is listening that Graendal killed Asmo.  so forget the pet theories!


created: 2001-11-06 10:52:36
subject: <b>interview from CNN.com Robert Jordan</b>
body:
Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him. <br /><br />Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeffron <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />DM Warder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />When I was a child, before my<br />mind was under the constraints<br />of knowledge<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />, I could predict<br />events that had not yet occurred.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 18:01:19
subject: <b>No chance of it being a good guy who killed him..</b>
body:
because Rand was the only one who actually knew who Asmodean was, right?<br /><br />   At least thats what i think<br /><br />   oh and wolfbro99 <br /><br />   not to be harsh or anything<br />   anything that happens to you in t'a'rhoid, you awake with.  Such as in book 2 i think it is, Verin shows someone a scar she got when she dreamed herself there once.<br /><br />   wotfreak


created: 2001-12-05 22:13:57
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
Rahvin still would need a motive for killin Asmodean, even if he weren't dead, which he is. Just being discovered *might* have been enough, but Rahvin was fond of Compulsion. He could have just made Asmo forget, and maybe through in some bad advice for Rand.<br /><br />Speaking of Compulsion, has anyone suggested that Asmo's killer was just Compelled to do so and doesn't remember? (But then we're back where we started: &quot;Who Compelled Asmodean's killer?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 11:43:43
subject: <b>Ouch</b>
body:
It hurt just reading this theory. I was hoping it was a joke but since it is not, lets get to the main reason why it does not work. Rahvin IS DEAD. I mean wow, this theory just does not work. To get the 1%, did you vote for yourself?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*insert creative sig here*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-11 18:52:35
subject: <b>mist effect</b>
body:
that always happens. however how fast it happens depends on the BF power. like w/the finger sized BF the Fades inverted un color for a second or two then turned to mist<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 12:06:02
subject: <b>I don't think so.</b>
body:
I don't think he was even Naeblis when Moghedien was first brought to him (or possibly that was the exact time at which he became Naeblis). The passage that I think of is when the watcher (Moridin) watches Sammael and Graendal, at the end of Ch20 in CoS:<br /><br />&quot;Sammael met her stare with one just as hard. &quot;Remember who will be Nae'blis, Graendal,&quot; he said, and stepped through his gateway.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless of course it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomorrow's.&quot;<br /><br />Moridin first contemplates the possibility that Sammael actually has been promised to be Nae'blis, and he does that with calm. This COULD have meant that he simply knew about the DO's schemes, if it was not for the last sentence I quoted. &quot;But today's truth need not be tomorrow's&quot; is as far as I can see simply very odd to say if Moridin already was Nae'blis, or even promised to be. While he is definitely a general under the DO, and also might have gotten different orders than many of the other Forsaken, I don't think he was declared Nae'blis until late CoS or early POD, which is actually some time AFTER he was brought back as Moridin. As opposed to the other Forsaken, his place has been more as a planning general right under the DO than a loose cannon out in the world, and his manners follows his position.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 12:41:02
subject: <b>A promise from the DO does not mean much...</b>
body:
A promise from the DO does not mean much, he is the Father of Lies. He at least insinuated to Demandred that he would have the title, and I don't think he would hesitate to outright lies if need be.<br />The DO promises eternal life to his followers, and then just use them as pawns. Even high darkfriends are sacrified if it is worth it for the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 12:54:03
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I did actually search for that chapter (...briefly), but I couldn't find it so I went ahead with the theory anyway.<br /><br />Even if we take it for granted that Ishamael was not Nae'blis, there is still the Shai'tan comment to discuss. Why can he say it? Any thougts?<br /><br />Even if he was half mad, looking at what we have seen of him, I still do not believe that he is crazy enough (no where near) to commit blasphemy.


created: 2001-09-18 17:07:34
subject: <b>On the Sha..umm..must not say that...</b>
body:
Well I kind of like this theory...<br />but I believe that this is a case of a change in plans...<br />As has many things during the series.<br />I believe the decision to ban the use of Shai'..oops..almost said it again..<br />Has come later on...<br />Well that's my 4 cents anyway...


created: 2001-09-18 18:41:14
subject: <b>I like it....</b>
body:
...It does seem to explain a lot. I think the dark one would rather have a leader sooner even if he did want to continue to use the Naeblis thing as a trophy for the rest of his cronies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 09:55:05
subject: <b>Not quite, I think.....</b>
body:
I seem to recall a passage in one of the books, I think it was CoS but I'm not sure, anyway, in there Moridin wathces Greandel and Sammael as they head back to Illian after a meeting with the Shaido, and Sammael says, &quot;remember who will be Nae'blis..&quot; thereafter Moridin thinks something like, &quot;a dangerous thing to lie about unless ofcourse it was true, well the table could turn many times before the end of the game,  etc....&quot; So I don't think that he is Nea'blis now and forever.


created: 2001-09-20 16:44:11
subject: <b>Another explanation of the name</b>
body:
Perhaps Shai'tan did not insist on being called the Great Lord until some time later.  Keep in mind that Ishmael's comment is early on while Lews Therin is still alive and the DO has just been sealed up.  Lanfear's comment is much later.  Perhaps during his time sealed, the Dark One became a lot more critical about how he should be addressed.<br /><br />By the way, props to Yubi for digging out that Nae'blis comment from COS.<br /><br />Here's a question, will it be Damandred or Graendel that try and take down Moridin first?


created: 2001-09-21 12:56:23
subject: <b>Uh...</b>
body:
The Dark One never wnted the Chosen to stay together. Infact he encouraged infighting to separate the weed from the wheat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 11:00:46
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
This theory would explain a great deal.  <br />I do think that Moridin is half-mad, but with a certain &quot;method to his madness&quot; which makes him all the more dangerous...<br />I think that most of the Forsaken have had the promise of Nae'blis dangled in front of them at one time or another, but in Ishamael's case he had more reason to believe it. <br />Furthermore, think about how badly some of the other Forsaken mess up because they didn't know the feel for this world.  They are learning, but if Ishy had been able to touch the world during his long imprisonment he would know more about the general shape of the world -- in short, the best man to take command, at least for the time being.  <br />The &quot;truth of today&quot; quote could be interpreted as Moridin warning HIMSELF that he might be removed from his exalted position. <br />And finally, those who are commenting on the length of time between Ishamael's meeting with Lews Therin and Lanfear's comment -- she was sealed in the Bore all that time!  I got the impression that time was not really elapsing for the Forsaken there -- except for Ishy, which is why he's half mad.  Of course, I've been dead wrong before.  Moreover, saying that something is &quot;blasphemy&quot; strikes me as something deeply ingrained.  Lanfear does not take lessons easily; if she once had the right to call the DO Shai'tan, I think she would have taken a LOT of teaching to break the habit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 10:48:59
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with this theory 110%. You see it fits perfectly because not only is Moridin a master of the True Power he is totally unconcerned about what the world thinks of him and seems to beleive everyone (even Rand) is playing to his tune. Now he may just be mad but it does seem to work out.


created: 2001-10-18 18:45:58
subject: <b>Contradictory</b>
body:
Ok first off, I agree with your theory concerning the fact that Ishmael is Nae'blis. However, I must disagree with you on the fact that the Dark one wants them united. Ok first of all in the book, it blatantly stated that the Dark one did NOT want them to get along but that he wanted them to compete and plot against each other for two reasons. First of all darwinism. The strongest of the forsaken will survive these plots that the others try to input. Secondly competition and conniving plots against each other would create a better &quot;forsaken&quot; I suppose. When competition occurs, that means that people will sacrifice more or come up with more ideas to constantly top the other, which means a more productive forsaken. However, you also contradicted yourself when you said that he wants the forsaken to get along, and then you stated that he wants competition, and competition would be anything but healthy when it concerns the forsaken. Anyways just my two &quot;cents&quot;. Thats exactly what its worth, two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Brittany  Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Center of the Universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Perrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Poster of controversial things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /> Well.. most of the time</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 11:09:06
subject: <b>The reason that Ishy/Moridan can use the dark ones name..</b>
body:
Why don't regular people use the dark ones name?  It draws the attention of the DO.  <br /><br />Maybe it works the same way for the forsaken, they are so busy with their own schemes that they don't want to draw the attention of the dark one for fear that he would be unhappy about them going off and doing their own thing.<br /><br />Ishy/Moridan has been working with the DOs interests in mind.  Why would he be afraid of drawing the DOs attention, he's doing everything the DO wants done, thats why he is in charge of babysitting all the rezzed forsaken.


created: 2002-07-04 05:30:11
subject: <b>definitely</b>
body:
I believe the truth of today comment was definitely a warning to himself<br /><br />plus he helped kill sammael <br />probably because he knows sammael is a threat to his position<br /><br />just a thought <br />peace


created: 2002-08-21 12:20:16
subject: <b>Of course he's been Nae'blis all along...</b>
body:
Who else would be for the 3000 years they were imprisoned?<br /><br />DO: &quot;SO NAE'BLIS, HOW FARES THE WORLD?&quot;<br /><br />Nae'blis: &quot;Well, you see I've been stuck here for 3000 years so I'm not really sure.&quot;<br /><br />DO: &quot;DAMMIT, I KNEW I SHOULDA CHOSEN SOMEONE WHO COULD do SOMETHING...YOU FIGURE WITH AN ETERNITY OF FIGHTING THIS DAMN BATTLE I WOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS BY KNOW.&quot;<br /><br />Ishy/Moridin was the only one who could touch the world for <i>any</i> period of time throughout the current age, albeit only for 40 years intervals.<br /><br />But, look at all the shat he stirred up in those time frames. Not bad.<br /><br />So, basically, I agree with the theory and its theorist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 16:58:26
subject: <b>He is Nae'blis...now.</b>
body:
Moridin is Nae'blis, I have no doubts of that, but I don't think was always Nae'blis.  That little internal monologue he had going on while he was watching Sammael and Graendal go at it.  He says a few things like, &quot;today's truth need not be tomorrow's&quot; referring to Sammael's claim that he was Nae'blis.  However, one thing he says is beyond misunderstanding, he says that Sammael's claim that he was Nae'blis was &quot;An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though.  Unless of course it was true.&quot;  In other words, Unless his claim of being Nae'blis was true.  This meant that he did not know whether Sammael was really Nae'blis or not, which indicated that HE wasn't Nae'blis... either that or my little statement about this being beyond misunderstanding was total crap, and he was referring to Sammael's claim of having an alliance with Rand being dangerous when he said &quot;Unless of course it was true.&quot;<br />By the way, I do believe that Ishamael/Moridin is mad, but in a weird sort of way.  It's a conrolled madness that he believes is just a part of the way he thinks, or maybe doesn't even notice.  Anyone who has read Orson Scott Card's Shadow series will know what I mean... you know... Achilles.  He was defenitely insane, but it only complemented his hyper-genius level intelligence, allowing him to honestly believe that the universe really did revovle around him, and keeping his conscious satisfied after killing over and over.<br /><br />Whew, sorry about the length.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 17:18:22
subject: <b>Not that anyone will ever read this...</b>
body:
but I no longer believe this theory, I haven't for a long time. Oh, and I wrote the theory if you hadn't noticed.<br /><br />Kind of funny, especially as I have the highest thumbs up rating in the entire Ishamael/Moridin section.


created: 2005-02-18 19:13:46
subject: <b>what??</b>
body:
but...but... i was just about to compliment it! urgh... now im all mad... I'm going to ignore what you said and keep talking.<br /><br /><br />I've always thought ishy was above the rest of forsaken, anyway, afterall, he's got a bunch of names (betrayor of hope, heart of the dark...) and no one else does.<br /><br /><br />im still mad you dont even agree with your own theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 20:04:43
subject: <b>Excellent Theory</b>
body:
I love this theory.  I hate Faile and I totally think that she could be a dark friend.  and like the man said now i hate her even more!!!  I hope Perrin axe's her darkfriend ass!!<br />


created: 2001-09-19 20:40:42
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Good thoery. You pointed out some good points to make it possible to believe. I for one have thought Faile to be a little bit reserved about herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lews_Therin_Telamon_01<br /><br />Bonded to the lovely Vali&#224;Snowstream <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 21:06:45
subject:
<b>As long as Faile gets axed in the end... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
We can only hope for an excuse for her untimely demise....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The_Gray_Trolloc <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Narg's brother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 21:08:46
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
I like it...as for hating her more, I might develop some respect for her character at that point....as much as one can respect a darkfriend....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The grave is no bar to my call&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 21:09:49
subject: <b>Yes!</b>
body:
The perfect justification for everyone who hates Faile... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />But more than that, think of all the trouble it could cause. After all, her father is pretty close to Rand... suspicion. Her cousin is one of the leaders of the Borderland force near Andor... where Rand goes sometimes, where Elayne is, and where (at some point) his children will be. More suspicion. And Perrin was worried in ACoS (wasn't it?) because Faile was with Colavaere's people and he thought Rand would kill her...<br />But I guess we'll find out soon, since presumably she'd make contact with some DFs now that she's with Sevanna... I hope it's true. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> (Yeah, I'm just bloodthirsty. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2001-09-19 21:43:28
subject: <b>Does it matter?</b>
body:
It doesn't really matter if she is a DF or not, as seeing to her obsession of either love or control or something in TPOD.  The last chapter, she says something like she loves him even more.  Whether she is light or dark doesn't matter, she is whatever Perrin is because she can't handle being anything else.  Guess it's just that power some guys have over women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 22:22:36
subject: <b>Wake Up!</b>
body:
Not Everything in WoT is something other than what it appears to be. You think that Faile is a darkfriend but you only have a few items of proof. have you ever written anytihng in your life? you write what sounds good. Not every string can be tied down. Jordan is good but not that good. Leave Faile Out Of It! You have to learn to trust people.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Ander<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 22:39:05
subject: <b>Re: Wake Up!</b>
body:
Why shouldn't we suspect her? She's so annoying that if she isn't a darkfriend, she must be a gholam or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The_Gray_Trolloc <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Narg's brother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-19 22:58:38
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
Its a very interesting theory, I've never even considered her as a darkfriend before.  She is my least favorite character so I would definately like to see her exit the story before Tarmon Gai'don!


created: 2001-09-19 22:59:53
subject: <b>hehe<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I think it'd be really cool if she was a DF, and that wolfdream... I'd forgotten all about that.<br /><br />But then again, just cause she's irritating and everybody hates her doesn't mean she'll be killed off or found out to be bad.  Look at Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene... come to think about it, just about every woman in Wot except for Min and a couple others is really annoying to a certain degree.<br /><br />But I agree let's hope she gets axed<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-19 23:05:49
subject: <b>I Like it, I don't believe it, but I like it</b>
body:
The idea that Faile is using Perrin to become Queen of Manetheran. And come the Day of Return she hands the DO a country is a good one. Or Faile learning Galina is a BA.<br /><br />But I think it was Lanfear Min warned him about and either Aram's aggression and influence on Perrin's rescue of Faile or his new respect for Masema is the doom in Egwene's dream.<br /><br />But please please please let the cliff be Faile's demise.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-19 23:42:54
subject: <b>Aahrm.. no.</b>
body:
Beautiful woman to run from = Berelain (Faile is described as bordering on unattractive, strong features etc.)<br /><br />Figure of danger = Prophet anyone?<br /><br />Cliff Perrin and Aram fall over while hacking through brambles = Seanchan invasion just moments to the south<br /><br />Being @ the DF social = monitoring visits from Myrddraal (Hi Jaichim, I'm a Lurk and I'm here to check up on your progress...) or some other bogey. You _can't_ have been at the DF social and be able to get away.<br /><br />Do you recall the Two Rivers? Do you remember Slayer and Ordeith being there? Don't you think that it's a little far-fetched of the DO to arrange a stunt like that to gain control after the event? He enjoys a bit of carnage every now and then, and is willing to sacrifice his own, but really...<br /><br />No way is Faile a DF. If it weren't for everyone being blinded by the mass of anti-Faile propaganda then this would be in 'humourous thoeries' where it belongs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 01:19:49
subject: <b>Oh my god...</b>
body:
Have you people even read these books?  In book 9 we get lots of Faile PoV's not once does she mention or think to herself she has anything to do with the Dark One.  We get no strange signals signifying she might be a DF ( plenty of strange signals about Berelain though, at least to Perrin) When I first read this theory and saw at this point 12 blackboard comments I thought, &quot;Aw man, people beat to the punch to burst the bubble!  But what do I find?  Everyone approving it because they don't like Faile!  Wow, all I have to say is; read Winter Heart for once.


created: 2001-09-20 03:47:10
subject: <b>I knew something is wrong with her</b>
body:
I just knew it. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I HATE HER!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Kill Faile<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Berelain rules!<br /><br />and Cadsuane is remarkable <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 10:12:32
subject: <b>YEAH RIGHT</b>
body:
I must say, you have put a lot of thought in to this, but<br /><br /> &gt;<br /> &gt;                     Egwene has had a Dream about a menacing figure edging closer to Perrin, and though we have always assumed this to be<br /> &gt;                     Aram, we have no proof. <br /><br />if you read the section on Eggy's dreams provided here at WoT, you will see that it says &quot;and that person was a tinker&quot;  It constantly refers to the menacing figure<br />being a tinker.<br /><br />&gt;                      Second, Egwene has had another Dream about Perrin and Aram fighting their way through brambles toward a cliff they cannot<br />&gt;                      see. This cliff is Faile, and they are fighting to save her from the Shaido. <br />how does this make her a darkfriend?<br /><br />&gt;                     Next, Min once told Perrin that if he ever met a beautiful woman to run for his life. Perrin (and everyone else) thinks that this<br />&gt;                      means Lanfear, but Perrin once thought (somewhere in TDR) that if might be Faile. She is, after all, the most beautiful person<br />&gt;                      in the world to Perrin.<br />Min never said it was a viewing, and Min said that AFTER we met Lanfear so ti was her.  And jsut because Perrin wonders about it being faile means nothing.  People have idle thoughts al lthe time that are wrong<br /><br />&gt;                      Fourth, when we first see Faile, she looks right at Perrin even though there is an Aes Sedai, a Warder, and an Ogier to stare at.<br />&gt;                      Her explanation of this later is a little sketchy. How could she notice his yellow eyes right away from the other side of the room?<br />&gt;                      She is also seen spying on Perrin later in the same town. I believe that she recognized him from the Darkfriend meeting at<br />&gt;                      Shayol Ghul in TGH.<br />this also is meaningless.  I see a guy I think is attractive, I would stare at him.  I wouldn't follow him around, but perhaps that is Faile's way.  Seewhat she wants and follows it.<br />She told that story about the eyes because you dont tell a guy you like you've been staring at them until you know they<br />are interested too.<br /><br /><br />&gt;                      Lastly, and most telling, Perrin once had a wolf dream in which he met Lanfear (in TDR, I believe). In it, he had a brief flash of<br />&gt;                      the future, specifically of Tarmon Gai'don. He hears the Horn of Valere blow in the distance,and he starts forward. He knows<br />&gt;                      that &quot;She is waiting for him there. His lover. His destroyer.&quot; Who else could that be but Faile? Sometime before the Last Battle,<br />&gt;                      she will betray him and try to kill him.<br />not necassarily.  this is the one piece of evidence I cant dismiss as quickly as the rest.  But she could lead him to danger unknowingly, she could die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> and he could (Heaven Forbid)<br />succumb to Berelain and she could screw him up.  Who knows?<br /><br />and general thoughts on Faile, even tho I dont like her and it would be sweet for her ot be evil so Perrin would ahve to say &quot;BYBYE- *CENSORED*&quot;<br />she's one of the good guys.  WE've heard her thoughts TOO many times for her ot be secretly DF.  Unless SHE doesnt even know.<br /><br /><br />It was a good thought, but rework your evidence.<br /><br />~Evamarie~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 11:59:40
subject: <b>It May Be a Long Shot, But Still...</b>
body:
The theory may be unlikely, but it brings back all of the suspicions and paranoia that surrounded her appearance in my mind.  After all, Jordan had been introducing all sorts of Darkfriends in a similar way - they all seem interested in the ta'veren, they befriend the ta'veren, and then they try to stick something pointy and sharp into the ta'veren.  Melindhra, the darkfriends on the road to Caemlyn, countless others who've blended into a general &quot;Darkfriend blur&quot; - they all seem a bit too interested in the ta'veren.  I thought the EXACT same things about Faile, and it's only been from the fact that parts of the book have been from her POV and that she seems to have had an opportunity to kill Perrin numerous times and hasn't, that my initial suspicions slowly faded.<br /><br />However, as someone pointed out in an earlier theory, the smart Darkfriends and Forsaken aren't trying to kill the ta'veren - yet.  These guys need to be present at the Last Battle, and the Pattern isn't going to let them get out of it.  Darkfriends who try rubbing out the ta'veren end up seeming to be like Wiley Coyote - anvils fall out of the sky to kill them, daggers suddenly break, they choke on their own tongues, etc.  But the Pattern can't keep them from being killed AT the Last Battle, as far as I can tell. What better way to completely demoralize the forces of good than to find someone to befriend, bewitch and marry one of the ta'veren, so completely win his heart that he will follow her, by his own admission, &quot;into the very depths of Shayol Ghul&quot;, and then, when the Trollocs are swarming around them and the Power is being thrown around like rice at a wedding, to stab him in the back?<br /><br />It's evil, it's devious, and it's the only way that I could actually appreciate the Faile character.  Which is why I think it's entirely possible.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 12:59:40
subject: <b>Doesn't add up</b>
body:
While I agree that Faile as a darkfriend would make for interesting reading, I simply cannot buy the theory that she is a friend of the Dark.<br /><br />It seems like A LOT of people on this site hate her; but while thoeries like this support this anti-Faile sentiment, they seem founded more on dislike than actual facts in the WOT.<br /><br />Folken <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-20 13:23:38
subject: <b>This is insane!</b>
body:
Faile is not a Darkfriend!<br /><br />1. She has saved Perrin's life on more than one occasion, and we know that Rand is the only one the the DO wants alive. Both Mat and Perrin have been targets of attacks; Mat in Ebou Dar, and Perrin's episode with slayer. So it's clear that the DO does not want them alive, why would Faile save him then, especially since 'some oaths are stronger than others'.<br /><br />2. We don't know who the menacing figure is - nuff said, no proof there. The cliff could refer to anyhting - no proof there either.<br /><br />3. The vision of Tarman Gai'don could refer to Rand.<br /><br />So, sorry, Faile ain't no Darkfriend. And I'll be laughing when we find out she isn't.<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-20 17:38:03
subject: <b>Sigh, the facts don't seem to matter</b>
body:
Fact #1: Faile is not nor has ever been a DF.  Her many, intelligent and caring, P.o.V.s makes that abundantly clear to anyone not obsessed with hating her.<br /><br />Fact #2: Perrin's obsession with Faile is HIS fault, period.  If someone is obsessed with eating candy would you blame the candy.  It is foolish to blame Faile for Perrin's problem.<br /><br />Fact #3: Faile loves Perrin.  (I know I said the l-word.)  There are very few words or thoughts in the series more tender than Faile's toward Perrin.  Like Perrin she would do almost anything to help and protect him.  Unlike Perrin, her love is not encumbered by an obsession.<br /><br />Fact #4: Perrin's difficulty with Faile at its heart stems from Perrin's inability to get angry at Faile.  Remember when Perrin was about to swear that he would never get angry at her.  Faile's responce was to tell Perrin not to do that because her father did and it made things miserable until her mother forced him to take it back.  If while in Cairhien, Perrin would have done what any reasonable person would have done--that is talk to his wife and yell at her if necessary--instead of running away by hunting then, their is a good possibility that that whole incident would not have happened.<br /><br />Fact #5: Faile RULES!!!  Faile isn't my favorite character but she has many qualities of someone I would like to know. <br />She is passionate, caring, feisty, strong, and daring. <br /><br /><br />Fact #6: Failaphobes Must Die! Faile haters are quite vocal, and obsessed;  but their obsession is of the type to make you want to question them and their weaknesses rather than Faile's.  To tell their truth, they don't seem to make up even a small majority.  <br /><br />Ok. Maybe a few of these are not facts but opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> . Still these types of arguments against Faile and other characters (mostly women for some reason) drive ME to the point of insanity.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 18:02:57
subject: <b>FAILE LOVERS!!!</b>
body:
Who needs 'em?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The_Gray_Trolloc <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Narg's brother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 19:33:52
subject: <b>Don't Get Me Wrong . . . (or at least not TOO wrong)</b>
body:
Hey, everyone! It's me. That's right, the loved/hated person who wrote this marvellous theory. Just so you all know, I resent being called a Faile-hater. I actually like her character. I just happen to think she's a Darkfriend. I believe it would make a great plot-device and it seems to fit all the facts (at least as I see them). Point-of-Views really mean nothing to my philosophy. Just because you see things from a certain person's perspective doesn't mean you get to see their deepest, innermost thoughts and secrets. After all, you'd never know Nynaeve was a hypocrite if you just looked at her POVs, would you? She never tells you that. It doesn't change the fact that she's a hypocrite, though (along with a certain daughter-heir . . . no names<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />). If my theory happened to bring all the Faile-bashers (hmmm . . . that's pretty close to Bashere, isn't it?) out of the woodwork and pump up their ideological zeal, well . . . all the better. We could use a few wars of words around here, complete with casualties and everything.<br /><br />But, just keep one thing in mind. I like Faile. And I think I'd like her even better if my theory turns out to be true. After all, every story thread needs an antagonist or two (or three or four or five . . .). Ciao.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 00:05:45
subject: <b>FAILE MUST DIE!!</b>
body:
I would respect her more if she were a DF<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 13:53:52
subject: <b>Who would be so cruel?</b>
body:
The one thing that springs to mind is why would an author single out one character to experience so much pain without it being a plot device? <br /><br />Perrin has already lost his entire family in a really horrible way, which A. brought him closer to Faile and B. gave him the strength to free the Two Rivers of Trollocs etc. <br /><br />The only effect of Faile turning out to be a Darkfriend (or dying for that matter) would be to drive Perrin insane, which clearly will not happen. I think one mad hero is enough even for WOT. <br /><br />Anyway, Perrin is a sweetie and Faile is a great character - I really can't understand why people (men mainly - food for thought) don't like her...


created: 2001-09-21 20:36:35
subject: <b>suckiest thoery I ever read</b>
body:
Seriously We've had so many portions written from her perspective and none of them have given any indication of her being a darkfriend.<br /><br />   Man Faile just can't get an even break from some people. Next we'll have someone one thinking she's one of the forsaken or something, yeesh!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 00:51:56
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
I dunno whether or not she is, but I think it'd be interesting if she was. I dunno, for a series that sparks so many theories and whatnot, the good guys and bad guys are relatively clearcut. Ingtar is the closest we've seen to someone who seemed genuinely good but turned out to be a darkfriend, and even he was trying to repent. Plus that took place over the course of a single book. And he wasn't a major character. I just think it'd be really interesting if it turned out she was. And Perrin, as you said, would go crazy and seek shelter, into the waiting arms of Berelain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 11:15:58
subject: <b>I like it, I like it . . .</b>
body:
. . . in a twisted sort of way.  Having the &quot;doomed romance&quot; sort of thing clouding the whole relationship would add a wicked punch to the series, which I would enjoy immensely.  I mean, none of the good guys have died yet, so let's do some treachery!  Personally, I think that if she is a DF, then she will not actually betray Perrin literally, but will reveal her past to him, and he will consider it a betrayal.<br />Unfortunately, the POVs are a bit of a stumbling block.  On the other hand, if Faile had *been* a DF and gave up, and was REALLY, REALLY certain that the DO would not come calling, then perhaps she wouldn't think about it.  As to what might keep her so safe -- being around a ta'veren might well do some good. <br />A good idea, but when it comes right down to it, we need more evidence.  RAFO, I guess . . . *sigh*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 19:24:22
subject: <b>Rebuttal coming soon</b>
body:
My comment last night was made in haste, I was just about to clock out of work so I had to hurry and read that theory.<br /><br />   I just submitted a theory that will be a rebuttal with all the serious and logical weight that my theory on the truth about light friends ['Secret friends' as light friends (warning may be offensive)] had<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> By the way the part in brackets was actually a part of that theories title. Those of you who are familiar with that theory may have an idea of what to expect from the one I submitted. Those who haven't read that, well may god have mercy on your souls.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 22:15:17
subject: <b>Just Listen</b>
body:
I don't know if Faile is a darkfriend or not (though i doubt it), and frankly I don't care.  Just for the record, if Faile were a DF she would never have married Perrin despite how she felt about him.  She saw him mow down the whitecloaks, and knows how dangerous he can be when someone es him off.  She is also smart enough to know that if she was a DF she couldnt keep it from a ta'veren.  She had a dream where she ed him  off and was running from him, and it scared the heck out of her, so.....i don't think she is one.  But again: WHO CARES? It's a trivial subject.  The only ppl who have talked about it so far are bashers, and lovers.  No one who doesnt have strong feelings onhe way or the other about faile aren't even intrigued enough to talk about it.  So HA!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />The Evil Coconut<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />A Wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 10:10:50
subject: <b>Irritating</b>
body:
I think 90% of the female charecters are irritating.<br />Elayne is a bimbo.<br />Egwene is a arrogant bimbo who isults Rand.<br />Nynaive is a bitch who insults all the males.<br />Faile is a control-freak.<br />Aviendha is bimbo who can't make up her mind about Rand.<br />Now what have we learned,<br />1) 70% of the females are bimbos.<br />2) 20% are just irritating.


created: 2001-09-23 14:19:46
subject: <b>This has nothing to do with Faile...</b>
body:
I highly resent your comment, Joko. The reason all the women in WoT are like that -some of them are a little annoying at times- is because RJ is a MAN and he doesn't know how women think. He's trying to make strong female characters -feminists in their own rights- in a genre of writing that makes female characters into...well, bimbos, as you called them. Take any ten books, from any ten different authors, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that eight of them will have a woman -or women- on the cover with very little on. <br /><br />To find a series with women who are truly on top -Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, the Queens of Andor, the Empress of Seanchan, Sea Folk Windfinders, Wisdoms, the Kin, etc- is a great pleasure to me, and I hope that he writes more about them.<br /><br />So PLEASE don't call them bimbos, or not like them simply because they aren't the submissive women you're used to in fantasy. <br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I will defend that which needs defending<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  I will be a BAD American if that is what is needed<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> I will live and love as I like, when I like<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I will worship as I will, or not at all if I desire<br /><br />-0- I am my own woman -0-<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 15:29:49
subject: <b>Iratating doesn't even begin to descibe it.</b>
body:
I am not a Faile lover.  <br /><br />I have been a Faile defender.<br /><br />Why?  Because I will defend ANYONE who is unjustly accused.  Faile is, of course, only a fictional character so their is no reason to defend her.  On the other hand, 99 % of attacks against Faile are nothing more than name calling without ANY substance.  Idiots who call people names and hate them for no good reason NEED to be slapped down even for attacking fictional characters.  <br /><br />More troubling is that the people who attack Faile have a tendency of attacking other female characters (and only female characters).  They also use name calling that ONLY applies to women.  They don't call them aholes or idiots or mean (although one person did use term control freak).  When pressed for a reason why they hate one or another woman (if you are lucky to get past the name calling) the best you can get out of them is either that they offended some male character (by pulling down flags or making them frustrated) or that they are to blame for corrupting a male character (as in Faile destroyed Perrin).  At best this is hero worship of Rand and/or Perrin.  At worst, it reflects a sexist belief that women are to blame for men's problem.  (The man can do no wrong.)  When combined with using terms that only disparage women and tendency to only hate women in the series this is extremely irritating and troubling to me.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong.  There is nothing wrong with disliking a character and venting a little steam.  (I, myself, don't like Nynaeve terribly much although I admire her in some ways.) On the other hand, if you are going to vent, you should be willing to back it up with more than just name calling (and sexist name calling at that).  In addition, you should me more mature than simply lumping those who defend the object of your attack as Faile-lovers and thus not worthy of being listened too.  Remember, as well, that when you vent, that venting says alot more about you and your weaknesses than it does about the person you are venting about.  Speaking of which I should end my own vent and hope it doesn't say too much about me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 16:13:21
subject: <b>Precautionary note:</b>
body:
The rebuttal theory that I submitted was about Berlain being a darkfriend/forsaken. If it gets posted it will be full of offensive terms. I use them not because I think words like skank and bimbo are appropriate for all women, but to laugh at the people who act like they do (believe skand and ho are words that can be applied to all broads in general).<br /><br />   I really dig that for the most part RJ has built a world where men are the weaker sex. Sure the protagnnist may be mostly male (our three main characters are ALL men), but they live in a womans world. I don't know if RJ has soe issues that he's venting through great fiction or what, but I dig his way with making women important not just as characters, but in the social worlds he's made.<br /><br />   Sure he may suck at writing believable women. Just like some women suck at writing believable men (think made for TV movies on channels like LifeTime). That's a stumbling block that will always be there. It makes life a little more fun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 19:40:16
subject: <b>Not a chance in Shayol Ghul</b>
body:
Faile couldn't be farther from a DF. <br /><br />1. There isn't a single word in her POV that comes even close to suggesting it. For those who think that doesn't matter, that internal POV thoughts can be false, think again. There is not one example in WoT where an internal POV isn't the true belief or thought of the subject. Before someone attempts to use Nynaeve as an example, with all of her hypocritical opinions, she has a mental block to believing that she is guilty of any of the things she claims of others, so she really does believe. She's wrong, yes, but her internal thoughts are really what she believes, not lies.<br /><br />2. Faile has saved Perrin's life several times, and uses her pseudo-aiel goofballs to back up Perrins plans, even behind his back. Going behind his back isn't going against him.<br /><br />3. She hates it when he patronizes her, tries to protect her or treat her like a fragile thing, and she loves it when he treats her like a warrior, like someone strong enough to take strong treatment. That is a trait of Saldaean women, as proven by her mother. It is what makes her so loathsome to some readers, but it doesn't make her evil.<br /><br />4. She has had chances to do immense amounts of damage to the cause of the Dragon, and she has never given a glimmer of inclination to do so. There's no way RJ would hide the intentions of such a significant character this long if it were other than what it seems. And before anyone goes there, I agree that the plans and intentions of Verin and Cadsuane aren't yet known for certain, and it would be far more likely that either of those is dark than Faile. (By the way, neither of them is either)<br /><br />As another respondent said, if she had ever been at the conclave of DF's, she would be getting visits by some minion of the dark asking why she hasn't done anything. If they could do what they did to Carridin, they would have complete control over Faile.<br /><br />About the supposed evidence offered by the original poster...<br /><br />When Min warned Perrin to run from &quot;the most beautiful woman he's ever seen&quot;, she is referring to Lanfear. It was indeed just after that when Perrin and Mat were visited in dreams by Selene/Lanfear. Perrin doesn't come to regard Faile as particularly beautiful for some time, is in fact quite disturbed with her habit of hanging around at first.<br /><br />Faile is initially attracted to the blacksmith because of his physical strength. A strong Saldaean woman would need someone of physical stature as a good male prospect.<br /><br />In Perrin's dream where he was shown personal glory and all that, this dream is engineered by Lanfear and she is the Lover/Destroyer he is aware of.<br /><br />I think that's about enough. There's more evidence denying Faile as a DF than there is that Taim isn't Demandred, and there's more than enough there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 09:15:16
subject: <b>Faile Lover/Hater</b>
body:
Actually, I neither love nor hate Faile. I find her a bit annoying (and I don't want anyone to take offense at that) but no more so than many other likeable characters in the books. My earlier statements were merely based on how I saw things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 12:49:39
subject: <b>Wrong!!!</b>
body:
I didin't say all the females are bimbos my favorite charecter is a female (Graendal), i just said most of them are Irritating not becaus their personalities but becaus they push the males around and i hate the males for putting up with it, i have read many fantasy books and allmost all the females in fantasy books are that way and control the males. They should be equals not one of them controling the other. I don't hate all the female charecters here are some that i like: Forsaken females, The Dark One, Min, Berelain, Cadsuane. I am really a feminist so i got a little mad when the females were a little dumb, write your comment to this adress: josip_kostic@hotmail.com<br />Please don't be insulting.


created: 2001-09-24 23:04:48
subject: <b>Zen Faile</b>
body:
I've already said I think Faile is not DF (nor her parents). I have to admit I've always been a bit surprised about the Faile-haters and can't understand the problem(s) people have with her.<br /><br />I neither love nor hate Faile. She's just a character in a book (a good book, but let's not forget that...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 01:11:59
subject: <b>Convenient yet difficult</b>
body:
Am I the only one who finds the natural progression of romances in the WOT a little fuzzy?  I mean take Nynaeve and Lan, did anyone REALLY see that coming?  They barely even interacted and all of a sudden, in the Blight in front of the destroyed Seven Towers of Malkeri, Nynaeve gives the &quot;some women would only ask for the man&quot; speech to which Lan replies with the &quot;widow's black&quot; excuse.  Even Rand and his girls.  They follow a vague pattern of meet . . . confuse him . . . be separated from him . . . then show up again and are madly in love. And let's not forget the sudden shift in Egwene's affections.  I mean for the first three books or so, Rand and Egwene seem the ideal childhood sweethearts.  Really tight and devoted and what-not, then all of a sudden they think of each other as siblings and Egwene is dreaming about Gwayn.  Okay, I admit that Jordan somehow manages to make such &quot;abrupt&quot; transitions smooth and believable and even enjoyable, but when you think about it they ARE abrupt.  There are very few WOT &quot;cannon&quot; romances that you can trace the progression of, the Faile Perrin romance is one of the few exceptions.  That's why I have to say as tempting and interesting as ngallagher's theory is, it probably wont happen.<br />     First of all, let me state, I don't like Faile.  Mostly because, when I started reading WOT, I was just a few years older than the three ta've'ren and I tended to regard them with the same possessive exasperation I would show towards my guy friends.  I'm not going to touch them myself, but anyone who does want to has to go through me first.  and Faile is not someone I would want for one of my guys.  Especially not for Perrin.  To... shrew-ish.  I mean Perrin really doesn't deserve some of the things she dumps on him.  Maybe if he were a bit of a rogue like Mat . . . but . . . no.  Bottom line, a relationship with Faile is something I would wish on a Forsaken, not on one of &quot;my guys&quot;.<br />     Unfortunately, Perrin loves Faile and she loves him in her . . . flawed . . . way AND we can see it.  We may groan about it but we can trace it.  From thier first meeting, to their travels, to Perrin rescuing her in the Dreamworld, you KNOW they're going to be a couple.  From their journey through the Ways (Gad I HATED her! The bitch.  I hope Perrin switched her A$$ but good), to the battle of the Two Rivers (OK. Have to admire her . . . grudgingly . . . but nonetheless, she did good) to the attack of the Shaido ( don't much like Sevanna either, but . . . actually root for her here . . .), Faile and Perrin have been nothing but solid.  And unfortunatly, I have to admit, as tempting a way to get rid of her while enriching the story as it may be, if Faile was a Darkfriend, we would have known or had some clue by now.<br />     Ngallagher's theory is intriguing and well thought out.  It would make an interesting plot twist.  It is NOT just a conveneint way to kill off a character and give a hero &quot;baggage&quot;, however, I don't think it is going to happen.  Mostly because, I tend to agree that, with the amount of screen time and POV's Faile has had, it will be awful hard for us not to have had some cule that she was a DF by now.  If Jordan is really building us and Perrin slooowwwly up for a shocker, I don't think that there is a way he can convincingly pull it off unless he:<br />A) abandons every other plot twist and decides to devote the rest of the series to the trials and tribulations of Perrin.<br />B) makes WOT go on till book 20<br /> <br />


created: 2001-09-27 09:47:05
subject: <b>I hate Faile</b>
body:
My message is pretty much self-explanatory.<br />Ever since faile was introduced in tDR she has got on my nerves. she managed to piss me off right from the start.<br />she was annoying and she is a control freak. what is her problem with Perrin's beard????? if he doesn't want one why is she so insistent???? IT'S HIS GODDAMN FACE!<br /><br />I reckon that Perrin and Faile are equally annoying. Faile's controlling of Perrin stems from the fact that he refuses to get angry with her, and his is that he sees as her as really fragile. That annoying woman is about as fragile as Padan Fain. He needs to get some attitude. he is too slow for my liking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Aimee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> I am all that was and all that will ever be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 19:59:04
subject: <b>She just might be...EXCEPT!!</b>
body:
Although I am always in for a tremendous plot twist, (and admittedly, Faile would make a GREAT DF), I just can't quite go there yet.<br /><br />I think all three ta'veren must have 'mates' that balance their weaknesses. Their &quot;other half&quot; possesses attributes in the areas that they are weakest in. That way, they are able to remain strong both mentally and physically.  After all, we know that they have to work together, or the Dark One will triumph.<br /><br />Matt- never takes anything seriously.  Tuon- definately someone WITH responsibilities and (we assume, being Seanchan, that she can be serious).<br /><br />Rand- has hardened himself emotionally to everyone EXCEPT his &quot;brothel&quot;, and even then, tries to &quot;protect&quot; them all the time.  Elayne- Soon to be Queen of Andor, and full Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah.  Aviendha- Former Maiden of the Spear, Wise One apprentice, and yeah, she channels too.<br />Min- Doesn't channel, but has &quot;insight&quot; that has forewarned her, usually.<br /><br />Perrin- Physical strength, but &quot;careful, and slow&quot;.  Doesn't want to resort to violence.  Faile- Intelligent, and quick to anger, not afraid to take chances.<br /><br />Okay, so what does this mean?  It means that just as Saidin and Saidar work together to form the TRUE POWER, all three ta'veren and their &quot;other half&quot; must work together inorder for the ta'veren's power to be strong enough to help in defeat of the Dark One.  <br /><br />My quick theory is that the Creator knows that power is strengthened with &quot;both halves&quot; working together, and so does the Dark One.  That's why, ALL of these women at one point or another in the story have been harmed or injured.<br />And, they all have been tested repeatedly to prove their loyalty.<br /><br />Last point,<br />Perrins dream of &quot;His Lover, His Destroyer&quot; could just as easily mean that His lover, Faile, was waiting up ahead, and by rescuing/fighting he would be destroyed.<br />Remember, Perrin keeps being asked when he will give up the axe, and, he is also told that his time to run with the wolves in the dream is not now.  Now, means presently, but leaves the option open for the future.  <br />He will die at the Last Battle, giving up the axe, and joining the wolf dream.<br /><br />r4j<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 01:26:18
subject: <b>Faile? A DF?</b>
body:
I just don't understand why all of you hate Faile! [wails unconsolably] I love her! She's so nice! You're all just ASKING for it, aren't you?? You wanna get balefired??<br />Mwahahahahahaha!!!!<br />Ha<br />Ha<br /><br />[we break this off as the writer appears to have lost his marbles.]<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 17:53:41
subject: <b>Never</b>
body:
Faile is Saldean and has no reason to be a DF.  The people that choose the role generally want soemthing unattainable.  Faile got Perrin, was able to be a Hunter of the Horn and is royalty in Saldea, loved by her parents.  She doesn't fit the profile of a DF.  Morover, the beautiful woman Perrin was to run from was Berelain (remember the hawk versus the falcon?).  She is irritating many times, but is also very young and undoubtedly spoiled.  I think she will play a pivotal role in Sevann's undoing, Thevara's downfall and Galina's doom.


created: 2001-12-11 16:42:22
subject: <b>It's worse than that...</b>
body:
Actually, Faile is Semirhage in disguise. The unruly charge obviously being Perrin (he is Two Rivers stubborn, remember)... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 12:48:23
subject: <b>Back off</b>
body:
I still don't understand this ridiculous dislike that everyone has for Faile.  She may not be the most enjoyable person in Randland, but she's hardly a darkfriend.  There have been a couple of different chapters from Faile's POV and none of them have revealed anything, that I can remember, to indicate she's a darkfriend.  Normally Jordan gives some clues as to whether a person is a darkfriend or not during a chapter from their POV, i.e. Sheriam.  Bottomline, Faile isn't a darkfriend and personally I think she and Perrin are one of the best relationships in the book.


created: 2001-12-21 04:44:53
subject: <b>I suspect that Faile isn't a darkfriend.</b>
body:
Now this isn't my theory my friend asked me to post this.<br /><br />He's still reading the series and is on book 4 so his memory of the earlier books is a little more, fresh.<br /><br />Anyway he reckons that Moiraine and Lan cann sense darkfriends &amp; he is also of the belief that M&amp;L and Faile have met, although I can't remember.<br /><br />That's my friends theory anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-25 00:18:30
subject: <b>How right this is...</b>
body:
Finally! a theory that recognizes that woman Faile for the darkfriend scum she really is.  I personaly think that she will not try to kill him, but rather in book 10 will be revealed when Perrin rescues her, Perrin loves her to much and won't be able to kill her, so she will leave, tell him to tell everyone she's dead, and to get with Berelain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JeevesI<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Wielder of &quot;&#8482;&quot;<br />Asha'man extrodinare<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Ruler of the WoT faction at Mass-Defect</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 18:55:45
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Very good.  Well researched...well written...hmmm....  I don't believe this theory, not because I took her name, but because she's way too innocent to be a Darkfriend.  I must admit that she can be devious when it comes to her plans for Perrin, but she isn't THAT bad.  Also, if she were a Darkfriend, then she wouldn't have much of a heart, and would have taken advantage of Perrin at his nadir (when his parents died).  So...very good, but not true.<br />- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-18 09:42:16
subject: <b>Most likely true, but damnit, stop bashing Faile.</b>
body:
She'll betray him, Aram will die saving Perrin from Faile and company, Faile will be executed or something, maybe sent off where Perrin will follow still.  Ultimately, though she may die a darkfriend, she'll still love Perrin and he'll still love her.  Mayhaps, just mayhaps, post Tarmon Gai'don, he and Berelain, who will have undergone some major changes, will begin to rebuild the <i>shattered</i> world.  In any case, I think the ending of the series is going to suprise all of us and be about the best thing any have read in a long time, especially since RJ has it mostly prepped in his head, so we can expect it not to slacken off and be crap.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 18:05:44
subject: <b>faile byebye?</b>
body:
Im not exactly Faile' #1 fan, but I think she cant be a DF, and would NEVER betray perrin. I mean, come on. We see her PoV so much, and its always &quot;I love Perrin but i cant understand him.&quot; and wouldnt min have had a viewing about her saying she was bad? i definitly think faile should go byebye and berelain should come hihi though. maybe she'll be killed by therava?? hopefully!


created: 2002-04-02 01:05:12
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
Anybody thought of Berelain being a DF?  She is sure in a high enough place to be able to screw up events for the good guys and she presumably loves Perin.  Plus she is beautiful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The REAL Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The REAL Prince of the dawn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  The TRUE Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Head of the Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />  Your just jealous because the voices speak to me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Asha'man, kill! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 14:23:27
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Like it has been said, she has saved Perrin&#180;s life and that dream was probably talking about Lanfear. I just wanted to add something. In her POV&#180;s in WH (and other books though I can&#180;t recall more examples since I&#180;m currently reading WH)the word &quot;Light&quot; is mentioned several times, especially during that trip through the snow. A darkfriend would never refer to the Light, he/she would think something like &quot;the Great Lord&quot;, &quot;by the Shadow&quot; or something similar.


created: 2002-04-21 20:50:23
subject: <b>Whats with all you Faile Haters?</b>
body:
I do happen to disagree with this theory.  But why does everyone hate Faile?  I don't think she is my favorite character, but I definatly do not hate her.  She has done so many things for Perrin, and the Light, that I don't see why she is so disliked.  Besides, I think Perrin's problem with not yelling at Faile is just that, HIS problem.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Yes Forsaken,&quot; Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep-winter ice. &quot;Past time!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Heroes are the people who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />     -Silverlight<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 14:49:03
subject: <b>Buzz ya!</b>
body:
Hmm, I can see where this is turning. if there will be ten more posts on this board, it will be a battle between men and women. I'm a man.<br /><br />Face it: Faile is not a darkfriend. Perrin asks Moiraine if she has felt any evil in or around Faile. She later lets <br />Faile join their party, meaning that she trusts her. If she<br />cannot feel such things, she would have told Perrin so.<br />I don't hate Faile (or Nynaeve either for that sake), I <br />admire their strengt. The only woman in Wot who bothers me and isn't of the red or black ajah is Egwene. she has enough arrogance to top Rand, LTT, all rulers and Elaida ten times over (oh, yeah, and Moridin, too). If Egwene turned to the dark, I would laugh. <br /><br />Faile is no darkfriend. The beautiful woman is Lanfear. The dangerous fellow could be Aram (the thought of tutha'an darkfriends doesn't really cheer me up, but hey, it's just a book-series)or it could be Slayer and finally, if saidin and saidar togeather would be the true power, then the Dark One could win this moment. <br /><br />sa sovraya niende misain ye<br />/Topace_III<br />//True Nae'blis<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 10:43:40
subject: <b>I totally disagree!!</b>
body:
there are loads of reasons why i disagree with this theory. firstly, when min warned perrin to beware a beautiful woman in TDR it wasnt a viewing it referred specifically to lanfear as min had met her at the end of TGH!!the only reason perrin thinks briefly that this might be faile is because he falls in love with her instantly(which is,btw why shes staring at him). Secondly, when perrin meets lanfear in the wolf dream he is in tel'aran'rhiod where lanfear is more powerful than him.in TAR lanfear can draw perrin into a dream of her own in her efforts to turn him to the shadow (the dark one wants ALL the taveren not just rand).<br />     i'm not a big faile fan but i cant see her being a darkfriend sorry!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> Deranged and Loving It!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 13:23:49
subject: <b>I'm not that lucky</b>
body:
While she is certainly a jealousy-crazed, controlling wench, I don't think she is a DF at all.  Vastly irritating, yes, DF no.<br /><br />A good deal of her irritating demeanor can be attributed to the culture that Jordan has defined in Saldea.  If Perrin just slapped her around once or twice, she'd be happy and we all would not want her dead.<br /><br />Also, since TSR (where I thought I could never detest anyone more), she has actually been somewhat bearable.<br /><br />If she is a DF, I hope somehow, someway, she kills Egwene.


created: 2002-08-10 00:15:22
subject: <b>Give the lady a break!</b>
body:
one thing is for sure im a faile supporter she is a strong person and if she was a real person i would want to meet<br /><br />also to the theory that faile is a darkfriend ok people will you give it up already she isn't why wont you give the lady a break already <br /><br />i agree with RabidWombat. <br /><br />what is up with you people does faile remind you of someone that did something to you? or do you just hate women in general well except for the submissive women that let a man walk all over them. <br /><br />ok and for those who think that the women are control freaks in wot remember this if the guys weren't such babies they would stand up for themselves. come on it took perrin what 2 books to finally yell at faile (even when she told him to) because men believe that women are delicate flowers and are afraid to hurt us (faile's own father says treat her like you would a flower and faile's mother is be strict with her). ok we aren't some of us are but not faile and any other strong female character in this series is that i think the  you people do not like them because they are emotionally stronger then the men. come on the men are train wrecks but not the women they always keep calm and don't freak out like the sterotype of women that society paints for us.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">GoldenEyes ( () ), GoldenEyes ( () ), where art thou GoldenEyes ( () )?<br /><br />Lady Faile t'Bashere Aybara</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 21:43:31
subject: <b>Wow, 58 comments (and counting)</b>
body:
basically either slamming Faile as a byatch or defending her as a gosh-darn strong willed girl. BTW, does everyone know that she is only 16 years old? She's 6 years younger than Perrin. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Well, I care neither one way nor the other...but, there is also an &quot;Evil Min&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> that you may all find interesting.<br /><br />It's not on this site (I think) but on another, and I'll post the link on this thread if I find it. It paints a really convincing picture (well, as convincing as possible given the subject) that Min is a DF or working for the other side. Trust me, there are about 5 or 6 solid pieces of evidence pointing to it, and after reading it you'll find yourself questioning her true motives.<br /><br />It's a good read!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 23:19:38
subject: <b>Faile is NOT a DF</b>
body:
Answer this: When the bubles of the DO started to come up they always seemed to try to only get Matt, Perin, or <br />Rand.  when Perrin's ax started to fly around it went after Faile the same as Perrin. Why would the DO want to kill her she was more valuable close to perrin then dead.  Also the DO just wasent interested in killing innocents or else Matts cards would have went after the lordlings the same as Matt.  I know that everyone seems to hate her but face it she simply isnt a DF.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />some delight in ale and wine,<br />and others girls with ankels <br />fine, but my delight, yes <br />always mine, is to dance with <br />Jack O The Shadows. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> some delight in ale and wine,<br />and others girls with ankels <br />fine, but my delight, yes <br />always mine, is to dance with <br />Jack O The Shadows. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 10:48:56
subject: <b>what about the lover/destroyer dream?</b>
body:
I don't really believe Fail is a DF, allthough there is no evidence I can give for that.<br /><br />However, this theory did make me wonder about that wolfdream. The only one that Perrin has loved is Faile as far as we know. I don't think it will be Berelain (she will find and fall for her man in white - probably Galad), and since Perrin knows who Lanfear is, I don't think it will be her either. <br /><br />So that leaves Faile. Allthough 'destroyer' doesn't mean she will do it intentionally, in my opinion it is most likely she will destroy him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Engeltje <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I'm not a guru or a sage. I'm a storyteller. The only times I get disturbed is when I find people who seem to be taking this too seriously.&quot; - Robert Jordan <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-27 06:49:21
subject: <b>hmmmmmmmm</b>
body:
I like faile - i havent always, but she isn't a darkfriend. I am aware that i have no proof,  but like someone said up there, you have to trust people sometimes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-10-04 08:47:09
subject: <b>To Clarify the Quote</b>
body:
Now I don't believe that Faile is a DF, she can be a bit annoying, but she's no where near as bad as Elayne (who should be balefired so hard she's removed from the entire series) but I digress...<br /><br />The 'His lover, his Destoryer' quote is in tDR. Lanfear asks him if he wants glory and: <br /><br />&quot;I don't,&quot; he said, though a piece of him shouted that he lied. The Horn of Valere. The Horn rang out, and the wild charge began. Death rode at his shoulder, and yet she waited ahead, too. His lover. His destroyer.<br /><br />The Lover/Destroyer is Death. Perrin is afraid of loving violence and death. It all tries in with him hating the axe, yet alway having it. It has nothing to do with Faile.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-05 01:16:42
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
being new to WOT, and also WOTmania, maybe you guys need a fresh argument, i think she is evil, that was my first impression of Faile anyway, first impressions ALWAYS count people.


created: 2002-11-24 09:41:04
subject: <b>Im not agree</b>
body:
You are may be right for the dream of Egveene but Min saw this and im not agree that the most beautiful women is Faile because if you remember when she saw Lanfear in TGH she said that she is the most beautifu women she eve seen.But even That is she is a darkfrien she may return to the light it is never too late <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> But she is from the borderland where the darkfriend are rare.But even if she is not a darkfrien she may try to stop Perrin in the last battle may be this is what he saw in how you said it ... seen in the future in TGH , because she will try evrything to save his life and its sily to think that she can do somethoink to kill him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> hah hah hah <br />But your theory is good anyway


created: 2003-06-12 08:04:18
subject: <b>No, she isn't...</b>
body:
...well, she better not be. She's my favourite character. She clearly loves Perrin... I have a feeling that the theory was not intended to be taken too seriously...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-12 09:49:56
subject: <b>I love Faile</b>
body:
All of you out there who are also in love with Faile, e-mail me at attempt@humour.com<br />I can't be the only one!<br />She's clearly not a Darkfriend, by the way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-21 18:09:00
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
I think some people are taking this way way way too seriously. She's just a character in a book.<br /><br />If Faile betrayed Perrin and he would go insane and kill himself and everyone around him. That man has problems. I like Faile better than him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 04:52:00
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
Why does she have to be a darkfriend?  Perrin would put her safety ahead of almost anything.  She may betray him inadvertantly by diverting his attention when it's needed elsewhere.  <br /><br />Also, they met in Illian... Faile may have been one of Sammael's pawns.  She doesn't have to be a darkfriend to to damage to Perrin.  She may have been compelled to grab on to Perrin and not let go.  The same applies to all the &quot;this guy's a darkfriend&quot; theories.  I'm tired of EVERYONE being accused of being a darkfriend or one of the foresaken in disguise...


created: 2004-08-08 00:23:26
subject: <b>Why hate Faile ?</b>
body:
I seriously don't get it. All of the ta'veren have undergone -serious- trauma and Faile has been the only one to actually give a damn.<br /><br />( Although now that Rand has been bonded a few times, that may change. Rand is the worst - he's got 2 permanent injuries, a guy ( and maybe a third ) in his head, he's got big responsibilities ( er... Tarmon Gaidon ? ) underwent a traumatic experience ( the chest ) And has to methodically mistrust everyone to survive. At least Moiraine respected him - and understood that he wouldn't be pushed around. I had hoped that they might actually get to trust each other, and instead she vanishes and is replaced by Cadsuane. I could just strangle that woman ! )<br /><br />Sorry for the rant.<br /><br />Anyway, Faile, as I said is the only one who actually did something to help. Remember, after he met Elyas in the Eye of the World, he kept his face lowered, stopped talking with people, etc. Everyone always felt uncomfortable when looking into his eyes ( kinda how like they felt around Rand in The Great Hunt ), and that is why I like the scene at the end of &quot; Among the Tuatha'an &quot; in The Shadow Rising. Read that, will you.<br /><br />And by the way, if she's a Darkfriend, so is Loial. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 14:53:52
subject: <b>im with snoid!!!!!!!</b>
body:
FAILE IS DEFINETLY 100% SEMHIRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-21 15:04:05
subject: <b>omg</b>
body:
why is everyone always so anti-faile......shes one of the best characters in the books. besides, there is absolutely no chance of her being a darkfriend.....shes Faile.....shes perrin's wife....she has as much chance of being dark as perrin and berelain do.... which is none!!!


created: 2007-03-14 16:28:54
subject: <b>Interesting, but unlikely</b>
body:
I found this an interesting theory - nevertheless, I also find it very unlikely, for facts that previous posters have already laid out.<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-20 05:49:00
subject: <b>come on</b>
body:
come on. That wasn't even funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> The only funny thing was this:  <br />&quot;I have a theory about Tarmon Gai'don <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />!!!&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-20 10:15:55
subject: <b>*blinks, not sure whether to laugh hysterically or cry *NM*</b>
body:
~Evamarie~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 12:01:37
subject: <b>It's Actually a lot like Ghostbusters...</b>
body:
...isn't it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 13:59:17
subject: <b>Wait...</b>
body:
This descibes the current season of DBZ perfectly.  I belive i will start calling the DO Buu.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 16:41:26
subject: <b>Of course...</b>
body:
It all makes perfect sense now.....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sentrosi <br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 08:56:02
subject: <b>But then...</b>
body:
It turns out that the big inflated thingy wasn't the DO, but only the DO's not-very-nice left hand (Shadar Haran is the right) and the DO has yet to show his face.  That's because the DO is a mole.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 13:29:29
subject: <b>I juste cant stop laughing</b>
body:
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahha, it's defenitly good but juste one thing he is not pink hi is purpel and white whit a sun on the chest.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 21:22:16
subject: <b>good laugh but...</b>
body:
good use of comedy relief but according to my little bro you been watching to many cartoons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" />=<br />


created: 2002-03-01 11:39:57
subject: <b>*gapes disbelievingly with one raised eyebrow*...</b>
body:
...yeah...the DO is Majin Buu...see I'd laugh, but...no...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 19:36:54
subject: <b>Majin Buu?</b>
body:
Sorry, but your description of the Dark One, the evil Shai'tan, seemed almost exactly like Majin Buu (my little brother watches DBZ, not me.) What next, you gonna have Shai'tan turning people into cookies and eating them?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 13:12:16
subject: <b>Majin Buu</b>
body:
OMG! I think this is about the dumbest (but funniest) theories I've seen all day! The only problem is you forgot to have him turn Rand into a cookie!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Goddamn it! Who gave Max Payne the power to channel?&quot; - Edge<br />&quot;Max Payne is officially Naeblis!&quot; - Maddy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-12 01:13:14
subject: <b>No, you got the end wrong</b>
body:
First, he reacts to Rand's Balefire by absorbing it, and then he decides to turn Moridin into a cookie and eat him. Then, after Rand thinks he's finally beat him ,he suddenly just loses a ton of weight instead, and then Rand's son and Perrin's son have to fuse to defeat him.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 11:49:01
subject: <b>Oh, goodness gracious</b>
body:
This is a terrible copycat.  It's one thing to like something and recreate it for your own benefit, but this is just copycatting.  Now, please excuse me while I go hurl.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 16:57:52
subject: <b>i have an idea</b>
body:
and then it turns out that instead of being mazrim taim, demandred turns out to be sebastien the whale washing dolphin after all... jut like i suspected!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> xwulfenx <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> hopper in disguise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-07 14:52:52
subject: <b>Majin Buu</b>
body:
you obvoiusly stole Majin Boo geez<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lad, I'm the best damn Gleemen ever&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> --&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&quot;Shall i never know who killed Asmodean&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 20:32:25
subject: <b>It does not make sense, even if it is true.</b>
body:
There are three Demandred theories that constantly comes up: Demandred=Bashere, Demandred=Dobraine and Demandred=Taim. Taimandred is the only one that is even possible to save if thoroughly investigated, without even that one being very probable.<br /><br />Demandred = Bashere is the least likely of the three and has the profile of a &quot;grand conspiracy&quot;. The problem with most grand conspiracies is that they simply don't hold. I'll only list what comes to mind right now.<br /><br />Bashere gets dirty in his position as general and fights among his men, which Demandred never would.<br /><br />Bashere is short. Demandred is not. Holding such a disguise for a long time would be extremely dangerous.<br /><br />Demandred didn't recognize Flinn. Bashere almost certainly would.<br /><br />Bashere has a whole Saldaean army under him. SOMEONE would notice if the chief or his wife acted differently. Nothing in Faile's POVs indicate she is a darkfriend either, so it's hard to see how the great conspiracy could hold the events up to now.<br /><br />Okay, maybe Bashere is Demandred, but frankly, he is  STILL further down the list of suspects than Mazrim Taim and even Dobraine.<br /><br />I don't think we have enough to be sure who Demandred is, although my guess is Masema's right hand, currently with Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 21:17:49
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
That would explain Faile as a DF, with her father a forsaken and all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The_Gray_Trolloc <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Narg's brother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-20 21:42:29
subject: <b>I agree with Yubi??</b>
body:
I must have had too much coffee, but everything Yubi has said makes sense.<br /><br />No, NO, NOOO!<br /><br />The Bashere's are not DF.<br /><br />I don't really want to say why not, because there are better things to do with my time...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 12:23:02
subject: <b>Yubi's right</b>
body:
It would be VERY dangerous for Demandred to take on the role of someone so much shorter than him. It would almost certainly have been discovered at some point in one of many ways, such as ducking to go under a space when it is clearly unnecessary to. It would be even more dangerous in battle as one of his own men might think he is swinging his sword over the general's head when he is in fact going right through it.<br /><br />I don't think it's Masema's right hand man though. Firstly Demandred is meant to be keping an eye on Rand and I don't see how he could be from there. Secondly Jordan has said that we have enough information for the identity, and we have far too litle info on this guy.<br /><br />I personally think Wieramon due to the fact that he always looks clean even in a dirty battle, but I believe I read a theory a while ago that convinced me it wasn't him. Can't remember the reasons though.


created: 2001-09-21 13:19:05
subject: <b>No way!!!!!!</b>
body:
How about the time when Faile was sititng on Bashere's lap when they met up in Andor??????  She would obviously have noticed something while TOUCHING him.<br /><br />Also, we've seen too much from Faile's POV w/o any hint of being a DF.  <br /><br />Let's all quit with the Faile-hating!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bearer of the mysterious name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 14:34:19
subject: <b>i liked it, except for...</b>
body:
the part that said that Faile and Bashere's wife was DF's too - i really don't believe that. And Yubi has some really good arguments - which makes me believe that Demandred is NOT Bashere. <br /><br />though i have no idea as to demandred is... and... who is masema's right hand? i can't recall having read about him. (although i have read the series a couple of times)


created: 2001-09-22 09:02:35
subject: <b>A fatal flaw.</b>
body:
You over looked one MAJOR point, Yubi.  You said &quot;Jaichim Carridin does.&quot;  Well, my friend, you should have said &quot;Jaichim Carridin did.&quot; He's dead, you know.  He had a little too much brandy.  Read TPOD again, towards the end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 09:19:45
subject: <b>Please attribute correctly, Zex</b>
body:
Please check who you are actually replying to. I did not write the Theory, but the first Blackboard post AGAINST the theory. I have not mentioned Jaichim Carridin at any point in this thread and I'm also fully aware of his demise (which I suspect the Theory writer also is, despite accidentally using the wrong verbform).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 11:50:11
subject: <b>Sorry 'bout that Yubi</b>
body:
My apologies are given, and I hope they are accepted, otherwise I may just go jump off of a bridge or something.  I meant to say that to ngallagher, but I had read the other BBP's and seen another one to you.  I did not mean to insult your intelligence by saying you did not know Jaichim was dead.  Thanks for being so understanding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 15:25:41
subject: <b>Quick point about Taim</b>
body:
Okay regardless of who he 'really' is, Taim wasn't sent to Rand to head up the black tower and give Shaitan a bunch of dread lords. When Taim was headed for Andor Rand hadn't even dethroned Rahvin, much less set up his own authority and offered amnesty to male channelers.<br /><br />   Therefore what ever reason Taim had for being sent to Rand wasn't to take over the black tower. He didn't know it'd be there to begin with. It was pure luck that Rand offered him the second most powerful position in the world that a man could hold. Hence the sketchy surprise that Taim had.<br /><br />   That fits into the Taimedred and Taimistaim theories. SO nyawww<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 14:02:17
subject: <b>One thing to support Yubi</b>
body:
The Saldean army would not only know if something was wrong with their General... it also makes Demandrashere impossible!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Just think of where Demandred Travels around all the time... and you know how tricky an opening Gateway is! Not to think of the problems of time when he can&#180;t be at two places the same time...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 16:59:42
subject: <b>Doesn't Look Good</b>
body:
I really hope that Demandred is not Bashere, but some of the points you make are half decent.  It is just too bad everything in the theory is &quot;if&quot; and &quot;maybe possible.&quot;  Rememeber in PoD when Rand went crazy with Callandor....It was Bashere that knocked him to his senses, why would Demandred care if Rand was killing his followers...That's right he wouldn't.


created: 2002-07-18 16:41:12
subject: <b>Are you out of your bloody mind?</b>
body:
There is absolutely no indication that Bashere is Demandred.  The idea that a WELL ESTABLISHED and WELL KNOWN family could suddenly lose its head without everyone around knowing it?  Absurd.  Bashere was too public a figure before the Forsaken were released to become one.  Perhaps if Demandred had died and been given his body, perhaps.  But Demandred did not die, he did not get a new body as Moridin, Cyndane, et.al. did.  If we assume that the Forsaken can take over anyone's place, why not assume Mat and Perrin are Forsaken in disguise?  It doesn't hold and it opens up way too many impossibilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 12:15:14
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
Well. My friend brought this up a few months ago and I haven't really thought about it. I can't see Demandred as Mazrim Taim, though. A spot beneath another Dragon would make him terribly grouchy. And even with the 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule', who could resist such a chance to kill Rand? He could have done it easily many times, or used Compulsion to have one of the other strongish Asha'man do the deed. It wouldn't be hard.<br /><br />Davram Bashere... well, if he IS 'dred, it doesn't mean Faile and Deira are. We've had many, many chapters, sadly, from Faile's POV... she never has such thoughts that would parallel her to a DF.<br /><br />His armies would not necessarily notice. Demandred COULD have been watching long enough to get most of his odd habits down, if Bashere has any, and there's always the possibility that he's using Compulsion, though he would have to be nearby....<br /><br />Well. That's all I have to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-01 19:37:29
subject: <b>Finally Someone who agrees with me!</b>
body:
Wow! That really makes a lot of sense. I had thought of Demandred-Bashere, too. <br /><br />If you'll remember, Bashere shows up right before Asmodean is killed, and it is entirely possible that Demandred had his own reasons to do away with him. Also, in his day Demandred was known as one of the world's finest generals, as is Bashere. <br /><br />Another note. When Nynaeve and Egwene visit Elaida's study in Tel'aran'rhiod in FoH, almost every time they find reports that Bashere was missing. Could this be because Demandred killed him to steal his identity.<br /><br />Well thats all I have to say.<br /><br />                 With all due respect,<br />                 Mutant 143<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Persons of the Dragon Unite!!!<br />   -Me<br /><br />No one would attack abunch of fierce goats!-Me<br /><br />Party on dudes!!!-Abraham Lincoln<br /><br />&quot;What's wrong Colonel Sanders? CHICKEN!!!&quot;-Dark Helment</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 10:34:42
subject: <b>Hey!</b>
body:
I wanna talk to Minnie!  WOOHOO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 13:02:25
subject: <b>This...</b>
body:
was BEYOND silly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 13:38:17
subject: <b>That's a vicious lie!</b>
body:
I've never even heard of the Asmodean person.  I was drunk in a hotel in the Bahamas at the time, you can call up the hookers and ask them!<br /><br />Mickey Mouse<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yeah, I'm a big star.  <br /><br />No, you can't have my autograph.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 16:38:46
subject: <b>LOL!!!</b>
body:
But I still say RAFO did it!  Thats right!  RJ has been telling us all along, only we're just too stupid to realize it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sentrosi <br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 00:45:06
subject: <b>RAFO</b>
body:
This RAFO fellow has done a lot of things, actually. Maybe RAFO is actually the Creator! It'd explain why he has his hand in everything... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Oh, and hilarious theory! Loved it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 09:11:36
subject: <b>And of course...</b>
body:
Snow White is Elayne<br />Cinderella is Min<br />The Little Mermaid is Aviendha (ironic, no?)<br />The pimping Prince Charming is Rand<br />Belle is Faile<br />The Beast is Perrin<br />Aladdin is Mat<br />Donald is an Asha'man (Logain)<br />Daisy is Toveine (sp?)<br />Huey, Dewey and Louie are Rhuarc, Bael, and Han<br />Chip and Dale are The Squirrels Of Shadar Logoth<br />Pooh is Narg and.....<br />Clarabelle is Bela! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-22 15:32:22
subject: <b>But you forget...</b>
body:
...That mickey is on the run from his arch nemesis. That would of course be Bugs bunny. Bugs is the true Naeblis (Morididn't is just his patsy). Think about it, he dresses up as a girl rabbit all the time. Unlike Aran'gar he can switch genders when ever he wants. Hee hee.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 01:51:30
subject: <b>Zex</b>
body:
Zex...are you implying that Rhuarc, Bael, and Han are related to Logain??? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 09:00:26
subject: <b>In response...</b>
body:
To KLitke7967, yes.  We have no idea to the whereabouts of Logains origin other than he showed up as a FD near I think Ghealdean.  I'm not sure about that, but it doesn't really matter where he came from.  We also don't really know about his age.  Channeling deceives normal people from age guessing.  (They would always win at those carnival games <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />)  Therefore, he could probably be anywhere between the ages of 13 and 83624.  Unless he isn't.  Anyway, if he is older than, say, 75 now and he's a late starter at channeling, he could have gone to the Aiel Waste, and played so well at Maiden's Kiss that there was a little more than kissing going on (Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)  Nine months later, Rhuarc, Bael, and Han came from their respective mothers, who were actually transgendered men because they have to be to be Clan Chiefs.  (Aint modern technology great?)  Anyway, They grew up among the Aiel, learning to be great leaders.  They never knew that their true father was Logain (or Donald) And that statement made me realize that most of this typing was pointless because Donald is their uncle or something, and it was actually Logain's brother, not Logain who went and slept with the Transgendered Aiel Chief Descendants  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />.  So pretend I typed all that stuff about Logain's brother.  ANYWAY, that proves that Logain (Donald) is Rhuarc, Bael, and Han's (Huey, Dewey, and Louie's) uncle.  Any disputes?  Thought not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 17:35:38
subject: <b>These are probably the most thoughtful posts that I have seen in a long time.</b>
body:
My posts included<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 01:51:46
subject: <b>Hey, Zex</b>
body:
If Mat is Aladdin, does that make Tuon Abu or Jasmine?<br />Methinks Abu <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />! Seriously, though, isn't he more of a<br />Peter Pan? But DotNM is hardly Wendy!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 19:54:52
subject: <b>Tuon is...</b>
body:
Jolene, Aladdin's girlfriend on the side!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 08:54:44
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
Belle is Faile??  Doesn't anyone remeber how NICE Belle was?<br />I think she's closer to the beast.<br /><br />And Belle loved books, just like Min.  I propose that Min is Belle, not Faile.  Rand is slowly becoming the Beast, because he doesn't care about much of anything anymore (except his women).<br /><br />I think Egwene would definitely have to be Jafar!<br /><br />As for Tuon being Jasmine?  It's a perfect match!  Both are princesses of a sort, both seem unhappy, and they both runaway.  (Tuon runs away with Mat).<br /><br />~Evamarie~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 09:28:03
subject: <b>Just burst my bubble why don't you</b>
body:
Okay, I wasn't really thinking when I put a few of those, and I can see Min as Belle, and maybe Rand as the beast, but who would Elayne and Aviendha be then?  Also, I guess Perrin and Faile could switch roles, but I think RJ won't take that path.  Besides, we haven't met an AS w/ the talent of &quot;Alteration&quot; yet.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I don't think we will.  Only the DO can do that, and I don't think he'll even go NEAR Faile.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  I don't know about Egwene being Jafar, I see Big J as more of a Fain than a al'Vere.  Tuon and Jasmine are pretty aligned too, save for the fact that Jasmine didn't get really violent (She had the tiger for that) and for the fact that Jasmine isn't bald as an egg with no hair.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 14:58:48
subject: <b>Agreed!</b>
body:
I just have one problem with your theory.  Goofy was not a cotl, Goofy is the creator.  That's right, no Bela, just Goofy.  Otherwise, it's all right!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> If the fades have no eyes, how can you tell if they are looking at you? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-27 20:58:45
subject: <b>That is funny my congrats</b>
body:
ffff<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 23:20:18
subject: <b>Belle</b>
body:
Uh, given the books link, shouldn't Loial be Belle? This would obviously make Erin the Beast (think about it- hairy 8' tall woman with a moustache....)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 01:57:12
subject: <b>then who would lan and moiraine and nynaeve etc. be?</b>
body:
hmmmm? i don't actually have any idea's myself, i'm open to suggestions . . .<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />does anyone see the similarities between WoT and the dark is rising sequence by susan cooper? anyone at all . . .<br /><br />kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;no wonder you're the emperor---you can write with your foot&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> i'm going to box her ears . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 16:33:21
subject: <b>the three fairies in Sleeping Beauty</b>
body:
I see Verin as Merryweather and Cadsuane as one of the other two fairies. Maybe Moiraine as the third?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 06:36:57
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Goofy is not the creator, not Bella either...<br /><br />I AM THE CREATOR<br /><br />MWHA HA HA HA<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 11:29:26
subject: <b>?????????????</b>
body:
What, me worry?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />The Force, Will Always Be With Me<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />What, you think it's something wrong with my hat, PUNK?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Walking on sunshine!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Big brother sees you, always<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> What me worry?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 22:13:17
subject: <b>Ironically worthy of a moments scrutiny</b>
body:
You are an utterly twisted wreck!  I am under duress to say you are brilliant in your madness.  Having succeeded in taking eccentricity to a new level (let the reader decide up or down), of far fetchedness.  I will no longer be able to see the series the same way again.  This was fun. Thanks for letting me vent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 19:11:55
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
First off, to Raserei, this may have been a specific heartstone, created after the Sealing.  Otherwise, why would they even need it?  All other heartstone would still be safe.  And to the post, The real reason that the seals are weakening is because they accidentaly trapped a pair of cockroaches in all seven, and since roaches can survive anything, they bred and mutated to be microscopic and then they started eating the cuendillar, seeing as they were now mutant miniscule roaches.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 23:01:47
subject: <b>d'oh!</b>
body:
I knew that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 16:10:49
subject: <b>Why isn't all Heartstone breaking</b>
body:
well if one of the forsake spent a really long time focusing on a peice oc Cueandilli... cuendiya... heartstone (now you see how that name came about) with the True Power say 4 or 5 centuries or a thousand years then it might break. So far as we are aware the seven hearstone ter'angreals that are the focus of the seals are the only ones that were emposed to MASSIVE amounts of the TRUE POWER.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 09:47:39
subject: <b>My answer</b>
body:
The reason not all heartstone crumbles is because it isn't all tied to a weave of saidin like to seals<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 00:05:12
subject:
<b>Because the Seals are linked directly to the Bore <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Due to the fact they are linked to the bore and are acting like a barred gate for the Dark One unlike other heartstone it is directly in contact with the Dark One.  Remember the feeling of evil, vileness Nynaeve felt in TFOH.<br />When the Seal crumbled eventualy, the feeling was gone.  It wasn't in contact with the Bore or the Dark One anymore.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-04-08 19:47:09
subject: <b>yeah thats sounds good</b>
body:
yeah thats sounds pretty good. And some of the seals are there because the hole isn't all the way open<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Just for the record, south carolina loves the c*ck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 06:06:34
subject: <b>roaches smoaches</b>
body:
Everybody knows that the natural enemy of the seal are killer whales. They even are black and white! How come nobody noticed this obvious fact before?


created: 2001-09-24 19:54:04
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
But I wouldn't suggest sticking glue to your fingers.  It may take lots of time and $$$ to fix<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 23:03:35
subject: <b>I use to do it...</b>
body:
I took some elmers glue, spread it across my hands in a light glaze, stuck my hands together, once it was totally dry, i'd break my palms apart, then peel the dried glue off.<br /><br />it was fun!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 09:18:48
subject: <b>To Raserei</b>
body:
Why aren't all males mad? The Seals are the only heatstones known to be tied to sadin, therefore the only ones affected.


created: 2001-09-25 13:19:06
subject: <b>Look...</b>
body:
OMG! I can't believe that anyone really thinks there's any merit in this theory. Look, the seals are only focus points for the power, the bore isn't a literal hole, it's a thinning in the pattern. The DO is trapped outside the pattern, do you really think you can patch a hole in the pattern with a physical element, be it heartstone or not? Sheesh!


created: 2001-09-25 16:43:18
subject: <b>Just focus points</b>
body:
The Bore was not sealed with cuendillar, but rather with weaves of Saidin. The hearstone disk (that may have been ter'angreals) were merely focus points like the stone and staff that Moiraine used to make use of.<br /><br />   The fact that they tried to patch to hole with only half half of the one power meant that the seals (which should have been made from weaves of Saidar and Saidin mixed together) were not complete and therefore improper for the task that they were made for.<br /><br />   The wood working analogy is actually very good if you think beyond mere physical matter and look at it as a metaphor for the one power and the true power.<br /><br />   The reason that the one power is stronger than the 'true' power is that it is balanced between man and woman. So to counter the dark one power you'd need both halves of it to seal the bore.<br /><br />   The fact that the bore wasn't cleared away would have made the effort of a two gender sealing useless anyway. It could have tainted both genders.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 03:41:10
subject: <b>The Dark one's escape</b>
body:
If we can have a theory about the dark one not being sealed completely and so on and so forth, and still think its legitamate, then lend your ears to the tale of Madrox...<br /><br />A quick and simple explanation of the Dark ones escape from his prison...<br /><br />The Dark one is Harry Hudini reborn...<br /><br />The word of the Madrox is bliss to the ears of the ignorant<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 12:27:25
subject: <b>I much prefer the theory that says that</b>
body:
Before defeating the Dark One Rand must smash all the seals (clear the rubble before rebuilding).  I mean, just you try to build a skyscraper on the uncleared ruins of a destroyed building (try this at home: bomb the Acropolis and try to build a skyscraper on it).<br /><br />Remember, there were no seals in the AOL, but the DO was not yet truly free.  Breaking the seals does not free the Dark One (it allows him to touch the Earth, not walk it), although it does clear the way for the Forsaken to play with the bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-18 22:12:04
subject: <b>Sowrd of Truth................</b>
body:
is my @nd favorite series<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded for life to amber <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 19:55:07
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Not a very nice place to be born if you ask me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  Death to all camels  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />  I've always been afraid of clowns.  I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my father.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;To hell with the Yankees!  Dammit, I mean the Spaniards&quot; Gen. Joseph Wheeler</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 23:04:26
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Not a very nice place to <i>die</i> either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 16:54:04
subject: <b>Point of fact Raserai</b>
body:
I have actually mentioned the idea of Avi's babies being born at Shayol Ghul, but said I find it less likely than Elaynes unless RJ want's this series to last as long as the war of the shadow since Avi isn't even pregnant yet.<br /><br />   I'm not trying to snipe on you or the theory writer just trying to point out that he's on a similar track to myself. In fact if Rand gets Aviendha expecting soon enough she may have something odd happen at her pregnancy at SG. That may be what makes them so &quot;...odd&quot; as Min put it. <br /><br />   By the way for all we know, Rand may be the first man to have actual contact with his former incarnation. Cadsuane made the comments about men that channel hearing voices but this may be different. After all Lew Therdawg never showed up til AFTER Rand went to Rhuidean and saw the history of the Aiel rewound in the glass columns. That may have been the trigger that woke up Lews, seeing his own past through present day eyes.<br /><br />   Rand being an unheard of unique case as he is (or could be at any rate) may be what affects the birth of his children with Avi. Her Aiel blood and her being a channeler both, could affect them in the wound since they will have two fathers in a sense.<br /><br />  Also what if every Aiel man and woman accept for Rand and Aviendha die? That leaves the quadruplets as the last Aiel born of Aiel parents and they may be the remnant of a remnant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 18:23:28
subject: <b>Just to pick up on Lord Sauvant...</b>
body:
Rand's children could well be the last of the Aiel, the 'remenant of a remnant..' - it would make sense, and would certainly make them 'odd'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 20:34:17
subject: <b>Close but no cigar</b>
body:
It is said that RJ will take 3 more books to finish the series (if he doesn't say that after he completes the next one like he has for several books so far) Remember one thing about the time between each book.. there is actually time there, whereas the books themselves usually encompass several months... there is at elast a couple weeks between the stories ending and the next ones beginning.<br /><br />Pregnacy = 9 months.. so unless Elayne has another set of twins, it's doubtful her kids will be borne on Shayol gul<br />


created: 2002-01-05 20:07:45
subject: <b>Nah, no babies on Shayol Ghul.</b>
body:
Can you see Rand Al'Thor, the same man who tries to send away his three girlfriends constantly allowing (even stubborn Aviendha.) To accompany him to fight the DO? Maybe if they're &quot;normal&quot; but there is no way one them will be allowed to come if she's pregnant.


created: 2002-03-19 02:29:10
subject: <b>But....</b>
body:
But We all know how independent theses ladies are so don't put it past them to come without Rand's permission.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-03 01:19:41
subject: <b>I also think as you do</b>
body:
i beleive your little theory is very good.  everyone always seemed to think he was going to die there then mins veiwing and soneone else died as him. i always thought he would be slighty injured or his side would break open but the point you make stikes me in such i way i beleive you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 09:31:23
subject: <b>Its very possible</b>
body:
This, I actually, was going to post.  If you read carefully, Robert Jordan gives away something I feel he did not mean to.  When Cadsuane talks about how Rand needs to show emotions again for the good of the world, she says something along the lines of if he were to win the last battle, it would be the same as having the Dark One win.  That to me means that he would live after the last battle, just as Lews Therin did, if I may point out, and rule.  Plus, in Min's viewing, she saw something special about Aviendha's babies.


created: 2004-08-27 17:42:36
subject: <b>Liked the first idea</b>
body:
The first part of your theory made me think. Rand's not my favorite character, but I don't like seeing a main character die. I liked your way of looking at things! And, yes, a baby born on Dragonmount or SG WOULD be messed up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chaos, panic, disorder-my work here is done.<br /><br />How do I set a laser printer for stun?<br /><br />Raine Sedai<br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Bonded to my Warders, Battle Ajah and ShadowAxe</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 23:08:31
subject: <b>Coma or LTT</b>
body:
I think his 'paper face funeral pyre' is either a coma or his continous merge with LTT.<br /><br />Main reason - if he pretends to be dead, then the bleakness will swallow the Aiel entirely. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-09-25 07:19:06
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
This might explain why Alivia must help Rand die. Maybe she will help him in his trick someway. And if the Aiel do think that he is dead, that's probably enough to break up the Aiel. So maybe the remnant of a remnant could probably be the Aiel who know that he is still alive.<br /><br />Just a thought.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />&quot;I love deadlines. I like the 'whooshing'sound they make as they pass by.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />      --Douglas Adams<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 21:31:17
subject: <b>What about the shed blood and all that?</b>
body:
I don't like this theory because it reduces all the mysticism of Rand's death + resurrection to a ruse.<br />Given the parallels to Christian belief (or mythology if you like) &amp; the imagery that's been brought up, I would expect Rand to _actually_ die and _actually_ be made alive again. RJ might deliver a ruse, but Rand's POV foreshadowings show that Rand (at least) expects himself to die, and most everyone else thinks that the Dragon will die during TG. It would seem a bit funny for there to be a double fulfilment of the Prophecies, particularly one that was based on a trick.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 12:30:49
subject: <b>I've always liked two separate theories...</b>
body:
one the above person mentioned, where he ACTUALLY DIES and comes back, three days later.  The other is that he never really dies or plays dead, everything is a clever play on words, much like the often less-than-clever plays on words found in the Sword of Truth's prophecies<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 10:09:51
subject: <b>The shattering of the body</b>
body:
Rand's body being shattered in Egwene's dream makes me think of a illusion falling together. Rand makes the world think he's dead, hence the dead body, but then at least Egwene finds out Rand is alive, hence the body shattering as it were made out of glass.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><b> Lupo </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Fantasy-Fantast magnific <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolf at heart <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Original Finn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 18:13:59
subject: <b>NIce</b>
body:
Nice theory.  the illusion making min's viewing may or may not be possible.  remember, she said that while they were are his funeral pyre, his  was still wet on the rocks of shayol ghul. <br />sincerely,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />a green sister looking at galad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S. i for one would like to see the installment of a theory searcher.  who is with me?!  Oh....no one.  oh well.  it would still be nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 04:12:21
subject: <b>A little thing called Bonding</b>
body:
HELLO?????<br />Rand cannot convince his ladyloves that he is dead because they have bonded him as a Warder so they will know that he is not dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Aimee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> I am all that was and all that will ever be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 10:26:01
subject: <b>Rand's death</b>
body:
I agree with you about Rand faking his own death somehow. After the Last Battle, the world won't need the Dragon Reborn anymore. Logain will rise to that glory Min saw for him. Alivia (sp?) will somehow play a part in Rand's &quot;death&quot; which Min also had a viewing of.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-03 20:44:57
subject: <b>Min's viewings</b>
body:
The problem with this theory, and I'm probably wrong because I have heard several people mention it, is that when Min views something that means IT HAPPENS.... Stay with me here...Remember in that book (TDR, TGH??) where they (Moraine, Min, the regulars) are in a camp and the Tinker comes to see Moraine? Remember the tinker walks through the snow? Min views her and knows she is going to die, a few minutes later Rand's earthquake causes her to get a bloody forehead. Min hopes this is her viewing but its not! She dies later. Are ya'll with me here. So if Min &quot;sees&quot; Rand on a funeral pyre - HE IS ON A FUNERAL PYRE!<br />Am i just totally off base here? He isn't just faking it.


created: 2001-10-10 20:27:36
subject: <b>Rand can't fool his ladies</b>
body:
Just a quick comment on a good theory. I completely agree with everything except Rand fooling his three girls. Since they are all bonded they would have to know he's alive because the bond wouldn't break. Even if he blocked the feeling out of it(Elayne's trick with rapping it up in a rag) they would still know it didn't break. Other than that good theory


created: 2001-10-17 17:31:24
subject: <b>Min's Viewing</b>
body:
Min saw Rand on a funeral pyre, she never said he was dead. I think he'll fake his death after the Last Battle (blood on the rocks) and live out the rest of his days with his women.<br /><br />As for the Christian parallelism, nothing says this has to follow the Bible through and through.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-21 17:32:34
subject: <b>Mat also died and lived..</b>
body:
.. so perhaps something like that is going to happen to Rand too.<br /><br />My other idea is that it has something to do with Lews Therin. Anyone got any ideas about that? Maybe they look alike and Lews Therin finally gets his peace...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-11 16:44:59
subject: <b>How about common sense!</b>
body:
Of course Rand will not really die.  What book have you read lately where the main character dies before the end?  throughout Rands career as the Dragon Reborn he has used subterfuge to gain much.  It seems only logical, as Aes Sedai of the White Ajah would agree, that he will continue to do so.  <br />Planetzebo...out


created: 2002-01-24 10:05:59
subject: <b>The bond between the women and Rand...</b>
body:
The women could be made to believe he is dead easily. First of all, the farther you are away from the person you are bonded to the weaker the bond. Remember how Allana(sp) couldn't exactly tell the Aes Sedai he was in that city near Tear. She only knew he was somewhere to the South. Well, say however that Rand goes to Seanchan, the bond would be incredibly weak.Or Rand could just find a way to break the bond. He might be trying to get rid of Allana's(sp)and end up getting rid of all of them then use it to his advantage.<br />Finally, what if Logain stepping onto the slab means that Logain is going to take Rand's place on the funeral pyre(sp). Anything could happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> DarkKnight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;What is, is, don't fight the past.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 17:02:53
subject: <b>RAND is ON the funeral bier</b>
body:
Ok your theory is really good and cool.... but Min sees Rand on the funeral pire.  The exact words are: &quot;Three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it.&quot;<br /><br />So therefore, he COULD fool them (if he somehow got around their bond) but he HAS to be on the funeral bier.  Maybe the girls are playing along.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-09 23:59:15
subject: <b>re: To live, you must die....</b>
body:
To me, Rand dying is what he's supposed to do, its part of how he wins.  If he doesn't die, then Shai'tan wins, the world destroyed for all practical purposes, and the wheel remade.  So to live, he has to die, and by dying he will be remembered, and history is immortality as are his children.  But if he doesn't die, then he will never be remembered, and his children will not live (the at least 6 we know are comin).<br /><br />Hope that made sense. =)


created: 2002-05-08 03:49:51
subject: <b>Both theories sound good. Let's combine them...</b>
body:
I say Rand actually dies during TG in the process of defeating the DO (however he does it--how is another theory)--Prophesies of the Dragon, several other prophesies.  He is placed on a funeral pyre and lies in state for three days--Min's viewing.  Then Nynaeve finally gets her chance to heal someone who is three days dead--frequently mentioned (like healing severing).  She resurrects him, but he is tired of being the Dragon bloody Reborn and decides to go into retirement.  So they don't tell anyone that he has been resurrected (fakes his death) and he turns over power to Logain--Egwene's dream, he sneaks off in rags--Perrin's dream, and goes across the sea with his three ladies (sword, spear, and seer)--Nicola's foretelling and dreamwalkers' dreams. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> And they all live happily ever after (at least those not horribly slaughtered in TG or before then).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Papa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Founder of the Wotmania Writers' Guild <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to no one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 12:17:09
subject: <b>Here's a fairly wild theory...</b>
body:
Okay, nobody laugh at me, please, this is my first posting... I think that possible Min's  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> and Egwene's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> vision may occur at different times.  I think that Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> WILL actually die at TG, and Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> will heal him after three days, as from Min's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> viewing and the comment about Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> not being happy until she heals someone 3 days dead... However, I think Egwene's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> dream will happen sooner.  Logain will become leader of the Asha'man, and Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> will go insane because of Lews Therin and become a beggar... I think somewhere along the line Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> will possibly (either purposely or accidentally) burn himself out.  PERHAPS it will be if Sevanna or Lady Suroth collars him, if it is possible to burn out while wearing one.  The bond between Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> and his ladies will break, and he will live as a beggar, where he will regain the humanity and emotions he's been losing along the way...  <br />p.s. I love these codes!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-12 09:50:34
subject: <b>I love that idea.</b>
body:
Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 13:48:48
subject: <b>bale fire</b>
body:
I think that Rand will die at TG then someone Asha'man or Aes Sedai will use bale Fire on whoever killed himand bring him back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 21:51:23
subject: <b>rags</b>
body:
just in regards to the whole perrin seeing him in rags like a beggar thing.....<br />his costume in caemlyn in WH?  Seemed like it could be thought of like a beggar to me..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 05:33:17
subject: <b>Faking death to his ladies? NAh</b>
body:
He is bonded to all three now - id like to see him make them think hes dead with a bond in place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 21:15:59
subject: <b>Yeah! common sense is good....</b>
body:
well.....<br />1. Rand IS bond to them....this far in the series a bond IS a BOND, and it seems like it cannot be broken. Yes he could invent a way to break it...but then again he could come up with an idea of how to travel to the moon....or how to fly (more likely)...<br />2. Rand IS going to die. Sooner or later...The thing with all the three of them stanting at his grave, can just mean that they are going to stay toghether for all their lives...<br />3. Jordan IS inconsequent on how to interprent the prophesies...it could be either way...<br /><br />There is only one thing to do....RAFO!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-03 07:40:36
subject: <b>Somone's made a cock-up</b>
body:
I might be about to destroy the entire theory here, but wasn't the &quot;to die and live again&quot; prophecy in the stone ter'angreal told to Mat and not Rand. I'm just saying...<br /><br />&quot;A dark power is rising...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;A dark power is rising ... and it brought cookies!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 20:20:37
subject: <b>But what about...?</b>
body:
The main thing everbody seems to be forgetting is the Athan Miere and their propheciecs about the Coramoor (Rand) and their future.  I havent seen the Athan Miere mentioned once yet, and they are having increasing influence on the white tower and the rebel Aes Sedais.  Also, the seancean have been mentioned very little.  TG is supposed to be the last battle, shouldnt all peoples of the earth be present at the battle?  Im probably not making much sense but i just wanted to let everyone know that the Athan Miere are part of RJ's world too.


created: 2003-01-23 22:37:10
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
We all assume that Min's viewings are always right,<br />so do I of course, but that leads to what I'm going to say next.<br />It involves Min and Moraine. Moraine is tha only viewing she's ever been wrong about etc. right?<br />And Thom pulling the blue stone out of the fire is symbolic (as far as we know) right.<br />What I am saying is that Rand doesn't have to die or nessecarily even be on the pyre.<br />So here's what i think will happen. (sort of what everybody else, has said, bu t w/ a twist.)<br />BEFORE TG, rand is going to need to tell the World he's dead. ( I just don't see why RJ would go into detail about what happens after TG but then...)He'll fake his death etc.<br />The question his, how will he mask the bond? well, Moraine'd bond qith Lan is gone. (this is assuming Moraine will come back of course.) Maybe Rand does the same after Moraine is rescued. Min's viewings are very symbolic, don't take the for literary truth.


created: 2003-05-17 00:05:54
subject: <b>nice...</b>
body:
min hasn't failed _yet_... we still don't know the exact thing that happened to moirane [whether she's really dead or not]...<br /><br />also, there are two types of min's viewings... the first one being seeing the viewing and knowing exactly what it means and the other one is just being able to see the viewing, and clueless/unsure about what it means...<br /><br />so... when min said that the seanchean girl[i forgot her name] is going to help rand die [or something to that effect], it can mean that it shouldn't be taken too straight-forward... if it means what it really is literally, min could've just easily said that that seanchan girl is going to kill him. and iirc, i think min was like saying &quot;all i know is that she is going to help you die&quot;[or something close to that line]. so there is a big possibility for this to have another meaning. in relation to this, about rand's funeral, i don't think min mentioned that rand is dead... yeah, i think min said that he's in that casket or whatever it is, but there was no mention from min of him being dead [or maybe i just missed it]. this is also one of min's viewing where she could see the viewings, and say it literally [as she sees it] and not really knowing what it means.


created: 2004-02-23 06:55:42
subject: <b>Re</b>
body:
I agree, I think Alivia will help Rand to fake his death, but the vision of three women over Rand's dead body is just a way to describe that there were three women who loved him in my opinion


created: 2004-03-06 01:03:02
subject: <b>A real long shot</b>
body:
Egwene sees his body shatter like glass... perhaps more like Crystal? As in Crystal Throne? Would explain the Alivia tie in, and as someone else mentioned, Rand being in Seanchan would dull-down the pesky bond.<br /><br />Just haven't figured out the three chicks seeing him ON the pyre...<br /><br />Only a thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Aussie WOT fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 23:50:08
subject: <b>My Interpretation</b>
body:
The entity that is the Dragon Reborn - Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon, merged within one body - must die.  In essence, Lews Therin will die at the Last Battle, redeeming himself, therefore shattering the being that is the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />In order for <i>Rand</i> to live, the <i>Dragon Reborn</i> must die.<br /><br />The one problem with this idea is how it relates to the funeral pyre and Nicola's &quot;three on the boat&quot; Fortelling.  Perhaps Rand will fall unconsious due to the shock of being split in half, and everyone will think him dead.


created: 2004-10-14 22:20:06
subject: <b>Did any one you consider</b>
body:
All of you who are saying that Rand could never fool the girls.... Who says he has to.  I bet being ta'veren and all he could convince them to play along and either they play along or use flows of Water to draw tears from their eyes to look like they are crying and quite convincing.


created: 2005-04-01 16:35:50
subject: <b>People have seem to forgot ....</b>
body:
lets say that rand does fake his death and lets also say that the 3 women are crying over him on the pyre well why couldn't someone mask another body to look like rand. plenty of WoT characters have changed their apperance with the OP. Just a thought


created: 2005-10-15 02:10:46
subject: <b>Lews Therin dies not Rand. (small KoD spoiler)</b>
body:
When Rand went through the doorframe ter'angreal he asked the Aelfinn how he was to win at the last battle and survive.  Their answer was that &quot;the north and the east must be one. The west and the south must be one.  The two must be as one.&quot;  They also answered, &quot;to live, you must die.&quot;  In KoD chapter 19 near the end of the chapter Lews Therin, having seized control of the one power from Rand, speaks of wanting to kill himself so he can be with Ilyena.  He recalls how he killed himself before by drawing too much of the power and begins to do the same with Rand.  Rand convinces Lews Therin to wait because he needs to be at the last battle or the world will die.  Lews Therin agrees and says that they can both die at Tarmon Gai'don.  Now with this said I think that Rand will not die exactly in the last battle but somehow with Alivia's help the Lews Therin in Rand's head will be removed or killed and Rand will then be free of Lews Therin.  The Aelfinn seem to give incomplete answers or riddles for answers and I think that their answer for Rand's question is a sort of riddle.  Lews Therin leaving Rand is like a bit of Rand dying and with Lews Therin gone Rand will neither go insane or be killed by the Lews Therin inside of him.  I understand the dream that Egwene had about Rand and the funeral pyre and all that still has to come into play in which Rand might convice others that he is dead but how does doing that cause him to survive the last battle?  All I see it doing is making others think he is no more so he can live the rest of his life in peace without everyone recognizing and bothering him all the time.  I think that Lews Therin dying has something to do with it.  Who knows maybe the answer is addressing both of these instances at the same time.


created: 2007-01-17 15:44:37
subject: <b>Bond Breaker</b>
body:
He'll fool them by getting alivia to shatter his bond to the girls. It would be appropriate considering Min's animosity to her. And let's face it, those bonds, good for sex but a pain in the ass when it comes to evething else. They hinder Rand. Bout time they came in useful


created: 2007-05-08 18:20:34
subject: <b>what about the two rivers</b>
body:
i agree the lews therins voice will be shattered at TG. This may also make Rand stop thinking about the dragon reborn and focus on regaining his humanity. i also think that maybe rand, at least for a time, will go back to emonds field and Tam will give him the sharon osbourne treatment and get him outta the gutter, because if i remember correctly having lews therin in his head is somewhat of a comfort and itd be weird havin that leave<br /><br />all speculation though


created: 2001-09-24 20:04:16
subject: <b>Tuon needs some hair</b>
body:
Tuon seriously needs some hair, maybe Mat will stop lettling her shave it or something, all I know is something has to be done about that.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-24 23:05:33
subject: <b>A bald woman traveling across country...</b>
body:
Will make more people notice.  She'll have to wear a wig just to semi-fit in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 23:08:27
subject: <b>Mask of mirrors</b>
body:
Maybe when she realises that she can channel she'll be taught the mask and have hair when she wants to (better than a wig!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-24 23:16:49
subject: <b>She's in Love Baby!!!</b>
body:
I think in typical RJ fashion, Tuon has thrown all common sense out the window and just wants to stay near him.<br /><br />As has been posted before, the fortelling may have said you have to chase this guy, (very insulating for the 2nd most powerful woman in the world) but in the end you will marry him. Reason enough to smile.<br /><br />Either that or her Seekers are following. Keep in mind Egwene's dream of Mat wrestling with a Seanchan woman who places an invisible leash on him.<br /><br />Invisible Leash? Something Mat is unaware of! <br />Seekers or Marraige Vows<br />


created: 2001-09-25 16:26:35
subject: <b>Not Quite</b>
body:
If Tuon was told anything about who she would marry, it would probably be that she would marry someone from <br />the oath brakers( the main land).  This would make her mad since the mainlanders had not kept their oaths to their <br />King, but fought over the land.  This may be why she beat up the woman who gave the prophecy.  Also, she wanted<br />to buy Mat probably because of his spear and ring.  With so many ravens on his things, she had to have seen an <br />omen in him.  Ravens hold a special place in their society.  Don't the seekers, deathwatch guard, and (i think) royalty<br />use the raven as sembols?<br /><br />Cai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> foster brother to Arther Pendragon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Knight of the Round Table <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-26 11:48:12
subject: <b>Married</b>
body:
<br />I think she beat her up because she said that Tuon would marry commoner/da'covael, which would rise blood temperature for sure!!!!!!!!!!


created: 2001-10-01 11:37:30
subject: <b>Uhm...</b>
body:
Does Tuon actually know of Mat's raletionship with the Dragon Reborn? I don't think she does, since it's dangerous information from Mat's point of view, as it makes him seem a tool to use.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 17:13:16
subject: <b>Why she smiled</b>
body:
I figure the foretelling was that she would be <br />kidnapped and would fall in love and marry her <br />captor. She was smiling because she realized <br />that Mat her destiny and was not entirely<br />displeased (as she was when she first heard <br />the prophecy).<br /><br />BB


created: 2001-12-29 01:10:37
subject: <b>A thought</b>
body:
Remember Egeanin recieved her promation for bringing the male A'Dam to Tuon. I think the smile will turn out to be related to an attempt to bring Rand under control.


created: 2002-03-07 18:11:12
subject: <b>Basically right, but...</b>
body:
I think the smile meant that everything that she had been told had come to pass. She was told in 'What a veil hides' something that upset her, but remember, so far, not one foretelling has been clear.<br /><br />Probably, because this are all speculations, what the damane told her was that indeed she would marry someone on this side of the Aryth Ocean, but what else? That he'd have a many symbols of the imperial family (ring and glaive), that he'd reveal her to the world (by removing the veil and putting the circlet on her head, she was very thoughtful after he did that). That he would _not_ be loyal to the Corenne (When he answered he had no chance to fight against the sanchean, she remarks 'So you would have'), and more important, that the crystal throne would be destroyed without this man (sanchean have a very high sense of duty, she'd marry him for that reason alone).<br /><br />Right now she may think that she needs Mat to make the Corenne succeed, to bring the Dragon Reborn to heel, or many other reasons, the truth is, she needs him to lead the sanchean armies against the forces of shadow in Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />On a happier note, it is just possible she's already in love with him and wants to be him =====&gt; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />RAKASHA<br />Yes, I'm a newcomer


created: 2002-05-07 13:51:06
subject: <b>re:tuon's smile</b>
body:
While I'm sure Tuon will fall desperately in love with Mat-- and/or have his @$$ kicked for carting her off without her asking for it-- I believe she smiled for the simple reason that  being in consort with Mat insures that she'll be closer to the dragon (Rand).<br /><br />During her introductory chapter in WH, I believe, one of her stated purposes was to find the Dragon and have him kneel before the crystalline throne (or else the world would fail, according to Seanchan prophecies).<br /><br />While I'm sure that she may have smiled for innocuous reasons, I think it's much more akin to Mat (for now, at least) representing the &quot;means to *that* end&quot;.


created: 2002-07-12 01:59:05
subject: <b>Just pointing out the obvious . . .</b>
body:
Some people have mentioned in these comments that Tuon may be smiling because she thinks that Mat will lead her to the Dragon Reborn. I need to point out that THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE! There is absolutely no indication that Tuon even knows Mat's name, and do you really think that Tuon and Suroth would let a close buddy of the Dragon Reborn run about wherever he chooses? Not likely. Even if Tuon does know his name, not even Tylin knows of any connection between Mat and Rand.


created: 2002-07-29 21:25:14
subject: <b>tuon</b>
body:
I would have to think that tuon was told in the foretelling something to the effect of falling in love with an oathbreaker and possibly marrying. i dont think her smile had anything to do with rand, but with the omens. she said she would wear the veil until an omen changed it. Mat removing it was the omen and at the same time her true identity was revealed. Through the foretelling she knew her fate was tied with mat's and being left in the stables would throw things awry. Even mat was real upset when the wise ones told him he couldnt go to rhuidean even though it was the LAST place he wanted to go. when mat changed his mind and decided to bring her she knew she was following the right path... producing a smile even if it was the LAST place she wanted to go.


created: 2002-09-07 01:23:55
subject: <b>DONT BE FOOLS!!!!</b>
body:
thank u Seita and Charlie Brown or whoever that was, u guys are right but no one else gets it! Tuon dosnt even know that mats even a friend of Rand!! if they even had the slightest hint, her and suroth would have surely captured him and used him for their success.  Thatll be all, class is over.


created: 2002-09-08 09:52:36
subject: <b>Portents and prophecies</b>
body:
I agree with the Seita/Annie Brown/perrin73 crowd.  Tuon does not know about Mat's link with Rand.  I think the simple reason she smiled is that Mat deciding to take her with him is an action she interprets as an omen.  Tuon's life seems to revolve around omens and prophecy.  They seem to be the first thing she looks for in her surroundings where ever she goes.  She would think going with Mat would be a good omen because of his apparent 'link' with Seanchan beliefs (i.e. all the Raven symbology centered around Mat).  Whether the omen she sees is linked to the shipboard foretelling she received or not remains to be seen.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-04 18:29:08
subject: <b>The smile</b>
body:
OK Tuon was deffinitly told that she has to marry Mat. She was probably given hints about him and puzzled out that she has to marry him. One clue probably was his spear, he found her looking at it a lot. She also has no idea that Mat knows Rand. The smile is simply that she is in love with Mat. RJ always has the women fall desperatly in love like this.


created: 2003-03-02 15:57:22
subject: <b>The Spoilers answer</b>
body:
Tuon defintly doese't know about Rand/Mat thing and wants to marry Mat for some reason or other, because in Seachan if a man says three times the times that a woman is his wife and if a woman says three times a man is her husband their married <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> and with the Royal Family it dosen't even have to be the same day.  <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Forever


created: 2003-04-27 17:46:02
subject: <b>EEK</b>
body:
i'm responding to the future being foretold thingy.<br />for somereason i don't think that Tuon would want to play into the hands of fate, atleast not on purpose.  so maybe she thinks that by being taken by mat he is helping her aviod the unaviodable...


created: 2005-05-31 23:24:29
subject: <b>A'dam</b>
body:
Surroth has the A'dam, got it when she captured Egeanin and Bayle's ship.  Then made Bayle property because he protested the bording of his ship.  Which caused Egeanin to have to buy him from the block.


created: 2001-09-25 20:06:46
subject: <b>Hmm.. me like</b>
body:
Elegantly simple (much like the joy of cheese on toast!).<br /><br />However, given the fundamental importance of the Pattern in the series, it needs to be tied in to this theory.<br /><br />Maybe from this perspective the creator can be seen as the 'custodian' of the pattern/age lace/wheel of time and the DO is the 'anti-pattern' or embodiment of chaos- the one responsible for 'unmaintaining' (destroying) the pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 21:45:32
subject: <b>Free Will and the all-knowing Creator</b>
body:
First off, I believe I was involved in the theory/comments you referenced from a few months ago.  This concept of free will verse all-knowing creator has always facinated me.  I just wanted to re-state the (believed by some) fundamental flaw in Christo-Judaic philosophy :<br /><br />If a creator is &quot;all-knowing&quot;, then he/she knows what each of us has done/is doing/will do...<br /><br />If true, we do NOT have free will...  everything is fixed and you can not change what will happen.<br /><br />Hence the pair-of-ducks..<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-09-26 05:27:52
subject: <b>Free Will vs All knowing God</b>
body:
This is a reply to Tim, i don't see a contradiction between free will and an all knowing god. the fact that the creator knows what each of us has done/is doing/will do, doesn't mean that he made us do this things.<br />i see it more as the creator creating the world, laying down the rules, and then &quot;seeing&quot; instantaneously what will happen. but what will happen is a result of our free will.<br />it is like saying that becouse the past has happend and we know exacty what happend, then the people who lived in the past didn't have free will.<br /><br />well this is my two cents.<br />Udi<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 12:36:45
subject: <b>Free will vs. Omniscience...</b>
body:
I don't find it a contradiction either (even though I'm Agnostic/borderline Atheist), but let me explain his point.  If the Creator sees the future.  If he sees the future, he's seen what we are going to do.  Therefore, there is no possibility of it not happening that way, which is the prime definition of destiny.<br /><br />However, there are 2 good arguments I can think of to this.<br /><br />1) The Creator sees all possible futures, and thus the true future, but cannot know which is true not because of a flaw of omniscience, but by the contradiction between free will and determinism.  Even Omnipotence is subject to contradiction, asking for a contradiction is like saying &quot;do nothing&quot;.<br /><br />2) He sees the future and what we will decide of our own free will.<br /><br />Oops...I'd say more but I have to go now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 12:16:50
subject: <b>contradictions</b>
body:
what this theory is saying is all contradicting it self, if there is a prophecy, and poeple are able to see the future, then it means that the path of the future is set. because if is not set, then there can not be any prophecy or visions of the future. if the path is set for the future, there is no free will. it is destined to happen, one way or another. like min said even if they know what will happen, they cannot avoid it. there is no free will in the world of wot. it is all about destiny, or patern.


created: 2001-09-29 13:30:40
subject: <b>In response to Lummox...</b>
body:
Just because you know something is going to happen, doesn't mean that you don't have free will. For example- I know that back in 1776 we signed the Declaration of Independence and became our own nation. That doesn't mean that Thomas Jefferson didn't have a choice on whether or not he could write it and sign it. We know it happened, BUT it could not have also. If your argument is such that -that is the past, of course we know it happened- then your theory is at fault. Because the Creator sees everything as the past, the present, and the future. Time is used by man to keep everything from happening at the same time, to differentiate between one event and another. But to the Creator there is no time, he can see whatever he wants in either past present or future by man's telling. So it's like he has seen the past, and knows what will happen, (and perhaps enlightens a few crazy people)thus the origon of prophecy! It all works out! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 18:06:38
subject: <b>I agree....over and over and...</b>
body:
I agree with the views on omniscience vs. free will.  I also agree with the dark one not being nearly as powerful as most people think.  i have a post about it.  someone wrote a theory called: &quot;what do the seals actually do? What is the bore and the dark one's prison?&quot; and in blackboard comments, i state my theory titled &quot;The Dark One is A Wimp!&quot; check it out, and feel free to laugh if you see obvious flaws.<br />sincerely, <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />a green sister looking at galad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.S. just in case anyone gets confused, look at the name of the poster, not the signature.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 03:16:04
subject: <b>In addition to Richard Al'thor</b>
body:
The Creator sees what will happen. He is sad for this man or happy for him because he will make this decision but He does <b>not</b> control that man's decision.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> IMHO  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 14:39:29
subject: <b>Omniscience and prophecy</b>
body:
OK, here are my thoughts on why, if the Creator is all-knowing, there is the existence of Prophecy.  Although I do not fully accept that the Creator is an omniscient being, I believe that if he were, he would indeed be able to see all possible outcomes of all events in history, both past and future.  And if Prophecy is instigated by His will, then I believe that He is attempting to set in motion the events that will lead to the particular outcome that the Creator is most fond of.<br /><br />This, of course means that all of His creations do have free will, otherwise the Creator would simply force people to do what he wants them to, rather than trying to insight them to it.<br /><br />These are just my thoughts and opinions, feel free to criticize to the extent of your critical abilties.


created: 2002-08-24 13:25:22
subject: <b>To quote my God...</b>
body:
RJ has said numerous times that the DO and the creator are of equal status. It has been proposed by some that the DO represents the &quot;evil&quot; impulses of a god that were physically sealed off. <br /><br />By the way for philosophy majors here is the real paradox: an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient god that allows evil to exist.


created: 2002-11-06 16:47:53
subject: <b>Alternate realities-time-omni creator</b>
body:
Point#1<br />Scientists now talk of possible alternate realities where, for any given event, every possible outcome does happen. The future branches off into a separate alternate reality for each possibility. What we think of as 'now' is really just one of those realities.<br /><br />Point#2<br />Time is a man-made invention. It doesn't really exist except as a reference point that we can &quot;agree&quot; on. We don't always...a day isn't exactly 24 hours, we have daylight savings time in certain places, different time zones and leap year in the standard western recognition of time. Other calandars have been established in other cultures...it all comes down to time being relative.<br /><br />Point #3<br />If the Creator is all-knowing, he is aware of all the potential outcomes for every possibility that ever existed/will exist (mind boggling!). Since every possibility DOES exist (in some alternate universe), every outcome IS &quot;what happens.&quot; <br /><br />RJ hints at alternate universes...The world (2nd book) Where Rand first meets Lanfear for example was a reality where Lews Therin probably sided with the DO.<br /><br />So everyone has free will, every choice is made somewhere and the consequences come to fruition (makes your head spin doesn't it?)<br /><br />Question is, is there a reality that is more real than all the others (answer: whichever one RJ chooses of course)?<br /><br />As for omnipotent, if every outcome happens, is there a need to step in and change the course of events? What other implications does this have? <br />


created: 2003-07-13 17:16:52
subject: <b>Variables</b>
body:
I agree with the above post (Alternate realities-time-omni creator by MikeSam) but there is another possibility. Assuming that alternate realities do not exist, or do not exist as MikeSam has it, there is only one reality. This would mean that the Creator (if he is omniscient) will know everything, from the moment of creation to the eventual end of it all. This &quot;ability&quot; could exist together with free will.<br /><br />Think about variables for a moment. Consider that a man's personality, his environment and everything else can be represented as a variable. Now consider, a certian input (creation) consisting of certain variables (the world, environment, creatures and people). A being such as the Creator (omniscient) will know all these variables, and given this information (exact personality of a person i.e. how he will react to certain other conditions or variables), he will be able to determine how a person would react, how a person would choose, he would even know what people's personalities are before they are born, thus he knows the future. <br /><br />So what i'm saying is there is no randomness and everything can be represented by numbers or symbols, pretty Draconic no?<br /><br />In summary: Knowing what each man will choose, given free will, gives the ability to know the future, but does not impede free will.


created: 2001-09-25 21:16:29
subject: <b>I disagree about the ending thing</b>
body:
What about the end of book 9 eh? A lot of people thought after book 8 that all was lost, and after book 7 some people, but the end of book 9 shows RJ still has the goods...


created: 2001-09-25 21:26:11
subject: <b>Maybe Not So Grim</b>
body:
While I do agree that the series has lost a bit of it's edge over the last few books, even though I do think WH was a step in the right direction, I still think the ending could be quite interesting. It's not that the story has been getting less interesting, it's just the way he tells them lately has been getting dated. We honestly don't need to know every single thing a character is wearing everytime they walk into a different rom from several POVs. <br /><br />Anyway, if you think about it, the ending is the whole reason he decided to write the series in the first place. I think I remember him saying something like 'I thought of ths ending, and I thought 'wouldn't that be interesting','. So obviously he's having some troubles getting to that ending lately, but I still think the ending will be good if he thought it was worthy to write a whole heap of books to get to it.   <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-25 21:52:31
subject: <b>Reality Check</b>
body:
Lets not forget one simple thing people :<br /><br />more books = more $$$ for RJ and (the real creators) the publishing company...<br /><br />Any questions?<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2001-09-26 05:44:51
subject: <b>Right On</b>
body:
There's not much I can add to this theory.  The reason is, it is right on.  I'm not sure about many of the WOT fans, but I've already lost respect for Jordan and the WOT series. And just like the post says, I'm just curious about Jordan's version of the end.  While it's sad to say, and it makes no difference whether I agree or disagree with the ending proposed in this post, at least it's a good theory, it's short, it's interesting, there's no skirt smoothing, and will probably be better, and shorter, than Jordan's.


created: 2001-09-26 15:26:31
subject: <b>strongly disagree</b>
body:
I strongly disagree that the series has been going downhill.  I have found many of the<br /> digressions into the politics and culture of the various nations to be fascinating.<br /> I think it is this level of detail that sets this series apart form so many others that are out there.<br />I think that although RJ kinows exactly what the final scene of the final book is going to be, he is not completely<br />certain of the path he is going to take to get there.<br />  In fact, this path has proven somewaht longer and more circuitous than he originally planned.<br />But, I am in no hurry to end the series if it leaves many plot holes, and situations unresolved<br />I eagerly anticipate where it is going to go next<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 16:06:55
subject: <b>Not surprisingly, I'm with Dr. Bong</b>
body:
I think everyone is holding Jordan to an incredibly high standard.  Think of the scope of the story he has created and picture yourself trying to keep it all under perfect control.  If you look at it that way, he's done a fairly impressive job.  Plus, what other Fantasy series would you rather read, the Sowrd of Truth one.  Please!!!<br /><br />I also agree with Dr. Bong in enjoying the political and cultural intrigue littered throughout the stories (although I do get a bit tired of the overdone attitudes between the women).  Plus, I think many people would agree that the story kicked into a higher gear come book 4 rather than got worse.  Yes, #8 and the first part of #9 are not to impressive, but all things considered, he's still keeping us all interested or else we wouldn't be writing these things.


created: 2001-09-26 21:08:37
subject: <b>Regarding more books, more money</b>
body:
This has been mentioned quite often, and I don't really understand why. Most people who have the view that Robert Jordan is dragging out the story to make more money, would probably also say that after book 4 or so, it's getting worse and worse. Seriously, why would he? As a writer, he's been pretty much safe since book 5 or 6 at least. He could start a new series, and get as much money. If he actually IS dragging this longer than necessary (which I don't think), it's because he likes the WoT setting so much, that he doesn't want to lose it. But money. No. At this point of time, he could probably get as much money whatever he writes, even if he started a brand new series of books.<br /><br />And regarding the Theory: Nope. I don't believe that's how the ending will be like. I'm sure RJ has something in store very few can predict. I also would like to add that I am among (the few?) people who do NOT think the books is getting worse. Then again, I started to read the series so late that I could read all nine in a row. That probably makes a slight difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-26 23:01:27
subject: <b>He Who Needs No Name</b>
body:
GRRRR!!! OK show me either your god like series of books you have or show me your masters in english. Lets all remember that it was you that decided to continue reading. Also we can not forgot that Robert, may he live long enough to finish this serries, has created many different races languages histories and charactors that we actually start to get to know and relate to. Ahhhh..... Once you get to reaally thinking about it wouldnt you go insane if you actually got the oppertunity to meet this literary genious. In all fairness i would think that you should at least write a responce begging for forgiveness and the right to continue reading this truely original and compelling series of books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 10:11:01
subject: <b>RJ is my GOD (sorry Allah)</b>
body:
I am in the same position as Yubi. I only read 'tEotW' in May 2001 and ever since I have managed to fail three AS exams 'coz I spent all my time reading the rest of the eight books instead of revising.<br />The books are great and Jordan's control of the stoylines are great. Considering how badly some of your theories and replies are constructed, I think you should show some respect to a true genius. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />(joke!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T SEND ME LOTS OF HATE MAIL).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Aimee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> I am all that was and all that will ever be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-27 18:48:02
subject: <b>The ending will be special... (I hope)</b>
body:
I totally disagree about the series going downhill from book4 - Lord of Chaos was IMHO the best of the lot, and the books since haven't quite managed to live up to it. Things actually Happened in LoC, but the pace has dropped since. Having said that, the only book in the series that didn't have me glued to the pages was tPoD, and WH was back to form.<br />Also, I think the ending will be something special - Jordan does still have the ability to surprise us, and as if the ending he thought up was so good that it drove him to write tWOT then it has to something else. <br /><br />ps After re-reading WOT for the 2nd time, I decided to take a break and read something else. This helped me to put into perspective just how good WOT is. If we judge tPoD and WH by the standards Jordan has set in tGH and LoC they come up a little short, but they're still among the best in the genre. I thik I'll give up on the other series and re-read WOT again. Now, where did I put tEotW? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 02:41:35
subject: <b>Ups and Down's</b>
body:
I agree with Yubi that the series is, while it has fallen somewhat, still incredible. I also agree that PoD was the more boring than &quot;old man in the sea&quot; but it still had some strong points... it brought us WH for example... uh can't think of anything else right now, but you get the picture. I really liked WH especially at the end (curse Jordan for making it such an ending and he isn't publishing the 10th book this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). I think that FoH was ok but then LoC came and blew us out of the water. CoS was ok and PoD as i mentioned earlier pretty much sucked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Stupidity got us into this mess--why can't it get us out? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> The ultimate Pink Floyd fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Shine on you crazy diamond! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> A storm is coming, <i>our</i> storm. Long live the fighter! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 18:32:21
subject: <b>Which were bad, which were good</b>
body:
EoTW was good. TGH was good. Dragon Reborn and TSR were good.  FoH wasn't bad.  LoC started to get a bit boring, but made up for it with an absolutely kick-a** ending on a huge scale -- Dumai's Wells is the single coolest battle so far.<br />CoS was worth reading for only a handful of scenes -- the takeover of Cairhienen, the healing of Rand by Flinn (proving that at least one Asha'Man was trustworthy) and the end where Rand grabs Illian.  <br />Like CoS, PoD was interesting only for a very few sections (Naishima delivering Callandor, Rand talking about cleansing saidin, and the campaign against the Seanchan).  The rest of these two books were just so much filler, IMO. <br />WH was good, but again mainly worth reading for &quot;With the Cho'dan Kal.&quot;<br />Basically, I like Rand's POV -- the rest of the plotlines leave something to be desired.  (Why?  Because Rand's the most powerful alive with saidin, and saidin is COOL.  Especially now that it's clean and Rand's not crazy yet... time to wreak havoc, Rand-boy!)<br />He Who Comes W/the Bong asked what else out there was worth reading -- George R. R. Martin's &quot;Song of Ice and Fire&quot; is worth it, hands down.  He's a better writer than Jordan, that's for sure, and the series is only three books so far, with a promise of done in six.  And before you all hate-mail me for saying anyone is a better writer than Jordan, I have to say that on my first reading of LoC I stopped reading any chapter that didn't have Rand in it.  That'll never happen with Martin's books -- all the chs. are cool. <br />But when it comes down to it, it's essentially a matter of taste.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 10:20:22
subject: <b>Song of Ice and Fire...</b>
body:
I skip every chapter that has whats her name Daenerys or whatever. Shes so boring. I hate her. Shes the reason WoT is better than Song IMO.


created: 2001-10-03 14:07:03
subject: <b>long complicated series equals very good end</b>
body:
Come on people.  Just think of how many subplots and different aspects WOT has.  RJ is a genius.  If he can write a series this popular and keep so many people enthralled the ending will last days and kick butt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 20:46:11
subject: <b>The master of fiction and fantasy</b>
body:
There is no equal to Robert Jordan, and I think that he can make the ending everything he promised.  The balefire's strategic placement is an interesting idea, and a good one.  However, I am a fan of the heroes of the Wheel theory.  This says that Rand will die in Tarmon Gaidon, but be tied into the Wheel through Tel'aran'rhiod.  From there his companions will rip him out of the World of Dreams--this will likely be the work of Nynaeve and Elayne, because they witnessed Birgitte's.  He would then be re-bonded to the three women to save his life.  But Mr. Jordan will likely do something that no one expects.  However much I like the happiness of the balefire idea, Jordan has already used that.<br /><br />  And the series has not nearly circled the drain!  Fires of Heaven was not my favorite, and Path of Daggers was imaginary eye candy, but everything else has been wonderful and intriguing.  And still, Mr. Jordan is the king of fantasy.  It is difficult to find any series half so complex, inventive, interesting, and not to mention realistic, on a a level as far as characters.  And Jordan is classy all the way, there isn't any need for play by play sex scenes as in Martin, because the story can stand on its own.  That makes a good work, the ability to capture an audience with concept, character and tale.  As it was said, show me your literary master!  Unguard!  We'll settle this the old fashioned way; fencing with wits!<br /><br />tsorovan'mais<br />storm maiden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> tsorovan'mais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> storm maiden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> commander of the lightnings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />keeper of the many series<br />one who take titles too seriously<br />If I balefire it, will it die?<br />                   --the question of the universe</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 10:35:44
subject: <b>Haha</b>
body:
U skip the chapters with Daenyrs in? She spends most of the time fighting battle or being made love to by her Handmaidens. <br /><br />Anyway back to the point, I think the ending might be like the start a Mad Rand sitting down with his women and all his blood kin dead around him and Taim laughing at him.<br />Or it could be Rand and the 3 chicks sailing away into the sunset.<br /><br /><br />WoT needs some Berzerkers<br />


created: 2002-01-09 11:37:57
subject: <b>Quit your complaining</b>
body:
The people who b!tch and moan about PoD not being a good book, &quot;there's not enough action&quot; &quot;it's boring&quot; are the same people resposible for the recent overflowing profusion of plotless, special effects driven movies. God forbid an author takes time to develop the PLOT of a story and flesh out the world his tale takes place in. The politics and &quot;little bits&quot; are what makes this work so great. I love RJ's attention to detail, and you know that almost everything he mentions is going to play a part in the story later on. It's not just page filler. Too many modern authors write books as if they are describing movies. I want to &quot;see&quot; the story in my head, not read the movie version, and that requires the vital, little details that draw you in and make you a part of the tale.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 02:20:20
subject: <b>Literary genius? You're kidding?</b>
body:
Someone mentioned that Jordan was a genius.  I have to respond, besides writing that Grim Inevitability is right on the mark--I'm just still reading because I'm curious as well.<br /><br />From the first book that I read over ten years ago, which I just happened to pick up because it was the thickest book on the shelf and I read fast, I was captivated by the storyline and ideas, not the writing, which leaves much to be desired.<br /><br />He is bungling characters, his logic is off at points, and I just get the feeling he is in way over his head and is struggling to write himself out.  I am not going to waste my time and pull out quotes, though there are plenty.  <br /><br />So just enjoy the books for what they are:  entertaining reading.  If you want to pay homage to Jordan, do it for his imagination, but leave his literay prowness, or lack there of, out of it.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-01-26 21:37:33
subject: <b>Sorry, Bad Ash</b>
body:
Already happened.  While not to the extreme in LotR, killing somebody's enemy's counts, not to mention the inspiration for how to cleanse saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 23:55:17
subject: <b>Did you forget LoC?</b>
body:
Lord of Chaos, in my opinion, was the best book in the entire series.  Fires of Heaven was definitly great as well, in my opinion.  CoS and PoD, they werent so hot.  WH was a bit of an improvement. especially the ending, it made the whole book.  if robert jordan can manage to continue downhill after the great ending in WH, well, that says something about him as an author.  but i dont think he will.


created: 2002-11-23 19:13:21
subject: <b>Mild disagreement</b>
body:
Some of what was postulated in the &quot;Grim Inevitability&quot; theory have validity.<br /><br />I don't think the series has been going downhill from The Shadow Rising, but I do believe Jordan has gotten profoundly sloppy and impatient from Crown of Swords on.<br /><br />Actually the end of the series has been woven throughout the books, namely another Breaking of the World.  In this case a far more subtle and low-key cataclysm has been building and now Jordan is showing us that after Rand dies (or exiles himself due to injury, physical or mental) the world will be wracked with cultural, economic, and military conflict.  In fact the Last Battle will be as subdued and anti-climactic as the removal of the Taint.  <br /><br />Perhaps the best paradigm would be after the collapse of Hawkwing's empire.  The beginning of Andor, Luthair abandoned, but determined to conquer Seanchan, the Sharan's defeating their invasion (who knows what effect that had on their culture? Many of the invaders would have been enslaved, possibly altering Shara's culture), the birth of the Whitecloaks, and on and on.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-06-08 17:19:25
subject: <b>i doubt anyone will read this</b>
body:
first i would like to say that i still think jordans writing to be excellent and if you dont like it stop reading the books<br />now that that is out of the way the ending that is proposed is not possible because balefire burns threads out of the pattern and the DO being an entity trapped outside the pattern means there is no thread to burn and saying that balefire could destroy him is like saying that balefire can destroy the creator


created: 2003-06-17 13:45:20
subject: <b>The Dark One...</b>
body:
I don't believe he can be balefired.  The universe would collapse.  I say this because Robert Jordan stresses how the Pattern always must balance.  The Creator balances the Dark One, for example.  The One Power, male and female halfs working both against each other and with each other.<br /><br />And as for the series getting boring, I couldn't disagree more.


created: 2004-04-19 06:19:18
subject: <b>Really...</b>
body:
&quot;In all fairness i would think that you should at least write a responce begging for forgiveness and the right to continue reading this truely original and compelling series of books.&quot; I completely agree with this person.<br /><br />When, in all due respect, was life all bouncing about? battles here and there. I make movies, for example, and of the action is the filming that's only the tip of the iceberg. Planning, scriptwriting, resource calculating, managing, casting, getting cameras ready and crew, all take the other bits up.<br /><br />He does NOT write the book for you people in particular. He is the story teller. Would you speed up the books to see the action? A portrait is done with a deft hand, a good touch. Ask the artist to speed it up...the detail and the beauty is lessened. Might as well paste your face to a photo copier.<br /><br />He writes it as he wishes. I see intricate storylines of how things MAY happen. If events speed up things won't...look...normal. You see, for example, if the relationship between rand and his three wives were speed up alot, he'd look like a three timer and a lecher. (hey is the role for Rand open for a WoT movie? movies are sped up....but those parts are definately in....oh nvm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />I hope you do not take offence at my words. My thoughts only. Not to say you're right or wrong. I merely voiced my opinion, though a bit angrily as i've seen others press their opinion hard.


created: 2007-02-03 02:52:27
subject: <b>My Two Cents Worth</b>
body:
I disagree that the WOT Books has gone downhill though the books after LoC did drag us like Tinkers looking for the &quot;song&quot;. I think that as Jordan was fleshing the details of the series from start to his pre-thought ending, he became overly engrossed (obsessed?) to the details of his work even more than us fans. The development of the story and his following is more than he initially imagined. I mean come on, EotW wasn't so great (almost a LotR rip-off). Books 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 however saw the intricacy and plot of the books develop to its finest though. It's the detail that makes WoT great but it's a 2 edged sword.<br /><br />In Books 7-10, RJ became too immersed in his details though.   There's just a point ,however where too much obsession with details and background info can really drag. I mean a sixth or so part of every book contains details previously written in all previous books. As RJ developed the story to the ending, he came up with fascinating details (esp. to him) that are interesting except that they have so little to do with the major plotline (see New Spring). RJ became as much lost as a Tua'athan. The heck he was thinking of writing post and side stories between writing towards the ending. He was also trapped (earlier) when he set it to 12 books. It seems he miscalculated his writing style and how long it would take the series. <br /><br />I think KoD was great work (and WoT's redemption) though some scenes seem hastily done and redundant (e.g. Mat Crossbows Suroth's lackeys machine-gun style and they all run towards it none of them even trying to escape - surely no gold is worth that, Perrin just pincushions 20,000 fierce Shaido with arrows with hardly a loss it didn't even seem he really needed the Seanchan at all. I mean if bows are the ultimate weapon, all army will be bows. And a box type crossbow formation!, c'mon!). <br /><br />It seems we don't have to worry. He has waken up to the fact that it has to end in Book 12 (see his blog, he is actually writing it instead of all the side stories he has in mind). I think he will give us the explosive ending we deserve. I just hope he does well in fitting it in the last book. (All writers know it's more tempting to write long than get to the point or summarizing what you've already written.) I'd rather have 2 last volumes than one crammed last volume at that.<br /><br />It's gonna be great or I'll balefire my WoT books!<br />


created: 2009-06-27 08:53:29
subject: <b>why so down on RJ</b>
body:
I know that Rj has drawn the book out for a long time and there have been times when I myself have become discouraged,but let us not forget that this is the big who  rah. I hope with all my heart that he comes up with a good original ending.I think that he will.He has kept us all wanting more over the years and has done some great stuff with his pen. He has helped us all through many hours of nothing to do ,and to tell you the truth you can read the books 3 times and not take it all in.I think book 12 AMOL will be awesome if anyone fu..s it up it will be Sanderson . Let us hope he[Sanderson], does not use any artistic license and sticks to the original pace.I find in a lot of stories that the writer seems to rush an ending and it turns out to be crap.Steven king does it all the time.He has only written about three good books and they were iffy at points. my fear is that the ending will just be hurried ,stupid ,or not weaved realistically,Love you RJ[RIP]dont mess this up Sanderson we are all counting on you,good luck. <br /> Thank you WOT for all you have done too,this site is nice to have in between books ,thanks.


created: 2009-06-27 09:14:33
subject: <b>let us not forget life</b>
body:
Life happens and every book cant be compared with all the others in a series .It is a story complete and separate .In all reality there is only one book TWOT.and it is a great book.


created: 2001-09-28 12:50:53
subject: <b>Legends and myths and stories, oh my.</b>
body:
Legends are generally considered to have a basis in historical events, however thin, and embellished with dramatic flair to become more interesting.<br /><br />Myths are commonly accepted to be primarily ficticious, though often the structure of myths are propagated to explain factual events in a light favorable to the ends desired by those who originate the myths.<br /><br />Stories are stories. They can be whatever the author wishes. There isn't a shred of evidence, either in the nine books so far or any of the interviews, that Jordan would have spent the time and energy of these many years only to have Shai'tan prove too powerful to be defeated. <br /><br />If you pay attention to his interviews, Jordan has a deeply held set of values regarding good and evil, and a strong wish that others would begin to see that making noble choices carries the greater reward. He does a masterful job of infusing this story with myriad shades of gray, but those things that are truly good or truly evil are clearly seen, and there is no way to draw a conclusiong that the bad guy will win.<br /><br />To set the stage for that, it is obvious that the Creator is far more powerful than the Dark One, to have sealed him in a prison at the foundation of the world. Then, when Lanfear tells Rand that with the Choeden Kal they could challenge even the Creator, well that means that it is quite possible to deal with the Dark One if done properly.<br /><br />Since one of the current keys is severely damaged, it will take Elayne gaining more knowledge of her Talent and creating a new one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 05:31:32
subject: <b>DO hasn&#180;t broken free yet</b>
body:
Even when Mierin and the others drilled the Bore in the AoL Shai&#180;tan did NOT completely break free, he only was able to touch the world through the bore before it was sealed up. Neither will he immediately break free when the last of the seals breaks. I think that this is a major difference!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 18:34:54
subject: <b>Spake the Creator:</b>
body:
&quot;I WILL NOT INTERFERE....&quot;<br />The Dragon Reborn is the Creator's champion; if Rand can't do it, then all our WoT buddies have problems.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 12:56:07
subject: <b>To Call Me Tim</b>
body:
Aren't there multiple keys to the Chodan Kal?  Egwene found one already broken in Tel'Aran'Rhiod in an earlier book, didn't she?  Maybe Elayne just has to find a non broken one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Invertedpanda<br /><br />Have an ambushed night (by an Evil Clown) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Consistency denotes a lack of imagination <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-31 11:46:57
subject: <b>Wouldn't that just stink-</b>
body:
and aside from the fact that if that happened, RJ would probably have his house stormed by angry fans, it must be possible for mere humans to fight the Dark One, or LTT would never have been able to seal him up in the AoL. True, it will probably become harder once he's free, but if Rand didn't have at least a chance to defeat the Dark One, why would the DO care so much about making all his minions try to convert/destroy Rand? For that matter, if the DO was so powerful that nothing in Randland could touch him, why would he need to have human servants or Shadowspawn at all? The importance the DO obviously places on Rand makes it clear it is at least possible for Rand to defeat him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-13 06:24:17
subject: <b>DONT BE STUPID</b>
body:
Of course Rand can defeat the Dark One..... why else would the Dark One bother to have all these servants trying to defeat Rand..... not to mention that if there was no way that Rand could stand up to the Dark One this really cool series of books would have a very lame ending


created: 2002-03-15 21:05:19
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
I don't think anyone has ever though up this idea before.  We all think of the last battle as Rand defeating the Dark One and dying, but it would be &quot;interesting&quot; if he didn't.  Also, one point I would like to make.  In the Age of Legends, they had all sorts of technology and could do awsome things with the One Power.  Well look at the current age. . . . Aes Sedai are very weak, everyone is afraid of men channeling, (even with saidin clensed), and there is no sort of advanced technology.  I am wondering how the world will stand up to the Dark One without all these things.  The people of the Age of Legends just barely did with them, so how will the current Age?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Yes Forsaken,&quot; Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep-winter ice. &quot;Past time!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Heroes are the people who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />     -Silverlight<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 21:35:02
subject: <b>If the Dark One actually won ...</b>
body:
It would be the breaking of the Wheel.<br /><br />The point of the Wheel is that history repeats itself, over and over and over.  Unless this series is supposed to be the 'linearization' of time, the inevitable end will be the resealing of the Dark One - neither his complete destruction nor his complete victory.  Anything else would break the cycle and thus theoretically break the Wheel of Time.<br /><br />~~Vikki<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Hello.  I'm Kamui of the Dragons of Earth.  I'm going to kill you all.&quot;  -- X Therapy</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 08:00:30
subject: <b>It is pretty obvious though...</b>
body:
that Mat HAS indeed betrayed RAnd in some other life. However; all these lives are not the same as this one. Or allow me to put it differently; this is the life where the exception is made.<br />First of all Rand accepts that he is the Dragon, and he did not do that in any of the other lives, did he?<br />(I do not have the books with me at present.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 11:58:37
subject: <b>Follow the Myths</b>
body:
Let's step back and look at this from an Arthurian perspective.  &quot;Judas&quot; in the Arthurian setting is really Lancelot.  Lancelot was married to Elaine but fell in love with Arthur's wife, Guinevere.  They fled, Arthur pursued them and Mordred came in to slay him in battle.  He was taken to Avalon by the ladies of Avalon to await the age when he would be needed again.<br /><br />Al-Thor sounds close enough to &quot;Arthur&quot;, but Jordan has twisted the story so that Egwene al-Vere (Guinevere) is not his wife.  Elayne does not become Mat's wife, but rather Rand's (or one of them).  Egwene is set to marry Galad or Gawyn (Galahad or Gawain).  But, even with the twists included, I think we've got a short list of traitors: Mat, Egwene, Elayne, Galad, Gawyn.  But, the important point is: THE TRAITOR WILL NOT GO OVER TO THE SHADOW, ONLY WEAKEN AND DISTRACT THE CAUSE OF THE LIGHT.  In other words, it's going to be a soap-opera sort of drama that causes bad blood and sets the outcome of the Last Battle on a razor's edge.  If Rand can forgive the &quot;traitor&quot;, the Light will win.  Otherwise he, like Arthur, will fall and lose.<br /><br />One other thing: no one ever says what happened because Mordred won - it's not like the world became the Land of Mordor or anything, with orcs and trolls.  What if losing the Last Battle doesn't set the Dark One free?  Has the Dark One ever stopped to consider that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 13:13:12
subject: <b>half the light of the world</b>
body:
wow this just gave me a flash of inspiration but what if Mat giving up half the light of the world is combined with this Judas theory.  Maybe Rand is the light of the world that Mat gives up.  And they all think he dies but he isn't really dead or he comes back from the dead.


created: 2001-09-28 13:23:50
subject: <b>Umm, Masema is a 'Judas' if there is one</b>
body:
To treat the life of Jesus on the same footing as the Arthurian legends does not seem right to me.  To suggest even in a fiction that Jesus did not exist and that Jesus was actually Rand Al'Thor seems more controversial than RJ is capable of.  (On the other hand, Masema's words to Nynaeve in FoH and the White Cloaks come close to being  offensive to more orthodox christian groups, like Catholics.)<br /><br />Don't get me wrong,  Christianity has its legends as do other main religions.  Christianity has even borrowed a number of them from other religions.  On the other hand there are things (such as the death and ressurection of Christ) that are the center of Christian belief.  And for RJ to imply that Jesus never existed and was nobody more than Rand Al'Thor doesn't seem right.  (How do you think Jews would feel if RJ had an Asha'man name Yamen give instruction to an Aiel leader named Musses on a mountain after setting fire to a bush.  I, personally, would feel it was a deliberate insult.)  Having a 'Christ figure' is one thing, but to reinterpret the live of Christ as never existing is another.<br /><br />That being said, and rant being over I hope, if there is a Judas figure in the series it is Masema (maybe even combined with Ingtar and the Illianer who shot Rand with an arrow who had Tar Valon marks on him.).  The Shienarians were Rand's first followers.  Of those followers Masema betrayed Rand.  We also know from the Wise Ones that if Masema gets too close to Rand that millions will die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 16:54:01
subject: <b>It is Possible</b>
body:
It is possible that someone betrays Rand. Egwene is a prime candidate because of being mad at Rand for enslaving Aes Sedai, but Mat is possible. Shoot, even Perrin. By the way, in tGH, Rand did proclaim himself the Dragon in some of those other lives.  Just because Rand has to be there, doesn't mean that he has to do all the fighting. Its possible that Mat betraying him wins the last battle. The most powerful thing that the Dark One ever did was the taint, and Rand got rid of that, (and that was when the dark one was out!) What if the entire earth was made into a type of ter'angreal like the one in Far Madding. Thus you come to our time, with only myths of stuff like witches and such. Maybe the Dark One is powerless in a stedding-like environment and that defeats him.


created: 2001-09-28 18:25:01
subject: <b>A few notes...</b>
body:
Someone said something about the eventual traitor not being on the DO's side, but distracting and weakening the cause of the light. This sounds a lot like what Latra Posumae Decume did... so the &quot;traitor&quot; might be Latra reborn. Obvious candidate: Egwene. <br /><br />It has also been said that the DO was free when he tainted saidin. This is nonsense. On the moment LTT and his Hundred Companions tried to seal the Bore, the DO couldn't stop them but struck at the only thing he could get at: saidin. So, the tainting of saidin was NOT a carefully planned strike of the DO with his full power. It was a desperate, impulsive, quick strike. Therefore your apparent conclusion that Rand can handle anything the DO does it totally wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 21:33:10
subject: <b>Great angle</b>
body:
Just a quick note to say &quot;great angle on the Rand/Christ thing&quot;.  My vote goes to Mat=Judas (has to be the right hand man of Rand for the full Judas analogy to work).  As far as RJ not going down that road due to its potentailly offensive nature...   I hope he does...<br />Not sure what RabidWomBat is talking about...<br /><br />That's my take.<br /><br />


created: 2001-09-28 22:40:08
subject: <b>Definitely a betrayer or some sort</b>
body:
There has to be, if only because Rand's had it pretty easy since LoC-- escaping destruction at every turn. He needs someone to hurt him again and keep the action up (although maybe that's what the tri-bonds in WH were for... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).<br />I *am* a little curious about Rabid Wombat's comment, though... why would it be offensive in any way? Even assuming that Rand were modeled solely on Jesus, with no other legends stepping in, it's not like there hasn't been such symbolism in literature *before* this. Galahad was actually a pretty potent Jesus figure. Jude in Jude the Obscure was supposed to be a war between the Judas/Jesus dualism (I think... or something like that). I'm sure there were more (esp. in Romantic American literature-- Hawthorne, Melville, etc.) but I'm at one of those times when, because I *want* to remember something, I can't. C'est la vie. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> And as for the Moses thing... there have been *many* treatments of the Passover story. The latest of which, I believe, was a cartoon by Spielberg. And in the realm of fantasy, Madeleine L'Engle wrote a book (Many Waters) which was essentially a fictionalization of the Flood story.. I may be completely missing your point, but that's what I picked up from what you said, that making a historical figure who has religious significance into a fictionalized character is insulting. So if that's wrong, I'm sorry, and please ignore this whole paragraph. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-28 23:56:54
subject: <b>No there won't</b>
body:
First off I'd like to say that I don't think Rand al'Thor is a Christ figure.  J.C. lived a sinless life and knew from the start he was the Son of God and what direction his life would take.  Namely, to take the place of all us sinners on the cross.  Rand is by no means sinless nor does he have a direct connection with the Creator/God to guide him.<br /><br />Additionally, Christ knew that he would be betrayed.  In fact he told Judas at the last supper he knew it was him. Rand I think would have no idea that Mat or any one of the main characters would betray him.  I don't think he would even suspect it.  Obviously, LTT is insane and paranoid and suspects everyone so maybe my argument is invalid.<br /><br />Bottomline though, Judas betrayed Christ because he was not the conquering king that the Jews expected of their Messiah.  Instead Christ came as a suffering servant to pay for the sins of the world.  Rand has by no means set himself up as the suffering servant.  In fact he has set about conquering the world.<br /><br />Since Rand is not a Christ figure the introduction of a Judas character would make no sense.  Besides.  Judas betrayed Christ for thirty pieces of silver.  Do you really think that would be enough money to entice Mat into the betrayal business?  No.  Plus, Judas hung himself after the betrayal.  Mat has already been hung.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-29 18:39:38
subject: <b>Nice idea</b>
body:
I don't think you have to agree with the 'Rand=Christ figure' to like this idea (although, to a certain extent I do). If Rand is to be betrayed, it must be by someone very close to him and unexpected (for dramatic effect) but must also be plausible. Someone he trusts. Hmm. <br />Mat is certainly an option, but at the moment we know of nothing that is more important to him than Rand defeating the DO. Perrin, however, does - Faile. Would Perrin betray Rand for Faile (assuming she's not a darkfriend, and Perrin must betray Rand to the DO or Faile dies horribly)? Especially if it seems at the time that Rand might be mad, or losing anyway.<br />Certainly you have come up with an interesting and original idea, worth discussing. Cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 18:59:49
subject: <b>First off to Wombat</b>
body:
I don't recall that anyone has suggested that Jesus never existed and was actually a retelling of the Rand Al'Thor legend. Even if that were the case it's fiction so who cares. The fact that RJ has some characters that have at least experimented with lesbianity tends to imply that he doesn't care about stirring up some controversy. However all evidence seems to point to the direction that he's using the life of Christ (among others) as a model for Rand, rather than using Rand to replace those legends, myths and gods.<br /><br />   By the way Jpdunn3 I don't think a character has to be totally modeled off of jesus to be christ like. Look at Valentine Michael Smith in Stranger In A Strange Land. He wasn't cognizant of who and what he was, he wasn't even the son of god. He was a christ figure though.<br /><br />   Considering what Rand is meant to do (save the world and possibly die in the act) he is most definitely a messianic figure. The markings on his palms and the wound on his side go with a christ like motif. The crown of swords also goes with that theme. Just because he isn't sinless and aware from the very beginning of his divinity is no reason to think that he's not christ like.<br /><br />  Besides (warning this will offend a lot of people) do we really know that Jesus was without sin? The new testament was written by his followers who my be said to be just a td biased. If he truly was god in human form as some say then would it not follow that he needed to get the entire scope of the human condition including lust, hate, greed, sloth, pride, covetnous, and gluttony? If he was meant to absolve sin and didn't have any experience of it himself that tends to invalidate the entire idea. It would only be valid to wipe out sin if you KNEW how good it feels to indulge in.<br /><br />   If Christ never lay with a woman, then he'd have no idea how hard it would be to lead other men away from that. You can use that to be applied to any other sin for that matter. His followers may have decided that tales of christ carrying on with a prostitute might not be very good for getting people away from sin and just took those parts out of the scriptures when he passed on. It's been done often enough (that is to say changing the bible). <br /><br />   With some of the things that Masema and his lot have been saying of Rand this may be a point about great figures of change being exaggerated in the history books. People in the 4th and 5th age may learn about a man called Rand Al'Thor that was without sin, who never knew the touch of a woman, and never told a lie etc. etc.<br /><br />   By the way I don't think Robert Jordan need necessarily have a Judas figure for the tale. Just because he models characters off of myths doesn't mean that he has to follow those myths to the letter. He might just ditch the idea of a Judas because he doesn't feel his story calls for it. Afterall RJ has made a point of turning myths on their ears and going in unexpected directions so far. Why stop now.<br /><br />   By the way I'm going to hell for this post, and your all coming with me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 23:16:51
subject: <b>Yup, were all going to hell...</b>
body:
...right after the battle of Armageddon (or in WoT Terms, Tarmon'Gaidon), which is the battle that will end the world (or humanity)...<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />----------&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" />||&lt;&lt;&lt;----------<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 01:53:44
subject: <b>How do you people deny the rand/christ parallel?</b>
body:
The brands on his hands, the wound in his side, his conflict with evil, evil trying to turn him to their side, his rebirth as the saviour of the world (which brings up some interesting anti-christ parallels as well), the predictoin that he will die and live again, and, to top it all off, what was his cleansing of the taint if not the sacrifice of christ, removing the &quot;taint&quot; of satan from humanity?  hmmmm....  i just don't understand how anyone can deny it.  and this is all off the top of my head, too... oh well.


created: 2001-09-30 23:55:20
subject: <b>first off...</b>
body:
i intended to begin by asking everyone not to get upset over comparisons between wot characters and important figures in certain religions.  the world is a big place and there as many ways of doing things as there are people on it.  those posts were not made with the intent to piss anyone off.  besides, this is not really the place for religious debate, so everyone please just take it easy.<br /><br />now, on to more important matters...<br /><br />as several other people mentioned, rj does not base his characters solely on one or even several religious/mythological figures.  rand knows that he is the world's only hope for salvation and that he must die to achieve that purpose.  he is not modeled solely on christ so all the details need not be the same.  therefore, saying that rand is a christ-like figure is entirely appropriate.<br /><br />if rj decides to include the judas aspect at some point, it could easily be one of several characters, depending on how closely he intends to parallel rand and christ.  should he choose to use a strict interpretation, remember that judas was a disciple (or student) of christ, and that rand's betrayer would be of the asha'man (one of his students), most likely narishma.  <br /><br />unfortunately, narishma hasn't had a very large role in the series thus far (hopefully that will amended shortly), but seeing as how there are a few more books (and another decade of waiting) ahead of us, rj has ample time to build up his character.  should he go for more dramatic/shock effect, rj would have to use one of the original emond's fielders, and egwene (to parallel the arthurian legends rather than christ) would be a wonderful choice.  she doesn't have to go over to the shadow (and it would be better storytelling if she doesn't), but just has to oppose him in some way that hinders whatever he's doing.<br /><br />just think about it...he grows up believing that the two of them will one day marry, only to grow further apart as time passes, till the day they stand on opposite sides of the field.  that's gotta hurt.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 13:45:53
subject: <b>Judas?</b>
body:
I'm undecided about whether or not RAnd is a Christ figure.  I'm about 80% convinced he IS.  I believe that the one to betray him will be Egwene, and I'm not just saying that becuase I hate her.<br />Egwene has already partly turned on him.  Haven't you noticed how she seems to hate him now?  That's the impression I get every time she thinks of him.  She either hates him or is growing to.<br />I can tell that she will never accept the Black Tower, and whether she likes it or not, it's going ot be there.  She is a strong-willed (STUBBORN) character, so she isn't changing.  There is going to be<br />a HUGE confrontation between her and Rand.  And I hope Rand wins, not only because I like him more, but I think the fate of the world rests on it.<br />As for Mat, Mat has a choice to make, a BIG one.   Between two Aes Sedai, now, a previous theory suggested that he chooses between Egwene and Rand.  Which makes perfect sense.  Now probably<br />Mat screaming about betraying Rand is foreshadowing that he will.  Everyone has been giving the impression that this &quot;Betrayal&quot; won't be too serious.  Meaning, Rand won't be harmed in a major way or that <br />it will be about one of Rand's women.  For Mat to have been upset has he was, he must have betrayed Rand in some drastic way, and he must have done it in every parallel universe, or ALMOST every paralell universe.<br />The fact that the betrayal will have something to do with Seanchan is so obvious, it just HAS to be true.  I can't believe that such a major decision on Mat's part won't involve his wife-to-be.<br />But what will Mat do?  Mat's generally a good guy.  He may have a commitment problem, but he generally does what's right with all his heart, and he puts people before himself.  I really have no idea what Mat would do.<br /><br /><br />~Evamarie~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 14:08:23
subject: <b>sigh, my point didn't come through very well.</b>
body:
As I tried to say in my original responce, but failed miserably it seems, I would be offended if it seems to me that RJ was trying to reinterpret the life, death, and ressurection of Jesus Christ as never happening.  <br /><br />Other things in Christianity are fair game as far as I am concerned.  Having Christ figures is a good thing.  (I wouldn't be surprised for instance if the Fisher King story started off more or less from the story of Christ filtered through pagan traditions and brought back to Christianity.  Christians have been around for a long time; long enough for other religous systems to borrow our imagery and traditions just as we borrow theirs.)  There is a fine line, though, between Rand being Christ-like and Rand <i>being</i> Christ.  To me, to have Rand die and being ressurected in three days pushes rather close to that line.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 19:24:58
subject: <b>Other authors</b>
body:
I think he is a Christ figure. One book I can name off hand which follows this concept with a Messiah is Dune with Paul MuadDib.


created: 2001-10-03 18:23:11
subject: <b>Mat as Judas</b>
body:
Well... I Posted a theory that WASN'T accepted, dealing witht he Idea of Mat as a betrayer. Half the light of the world, perhaps, means that Mat will have to give up half of what he loves in the world, his oldest and closest buddy rand. Mat will have to do something that will hurt Rand... maybe REALLY HURT Rand...<br /><br />Mat weighing things on a balance scale...His Love of Rand vs. the world... i love it... Makes so much sense!<br /><br />So... Yeah, I like the idea of Mat as a betrayerfigure on some level or another...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/5416.gif" /><br /><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="Teal"> Keith</font></font> (NOT BACK)<br /><font face="Times New Roman"><i> One always dies too soon-- or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are-- your life, and nothing else.</i>  - Garcin, <b>No Exit</b></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-04 18:55:33
subject: <b>Mat the Betayer</b>
body:
I think Mat will betray Rand, but unknowingly. He will lead the seanchan to him, not realizing that they have the male a'dam and get it on hid neck. Then, once he realized what he had done, he'll give up an eye for Rand's freedom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">FanFic Girl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 13:54:03
subject: <b>Rand's character may be analogous to Jesus Christ...</b>
body:
but I've always likened him to more of King David.  His physical characteristics are strikingly similar, he has similar abilities with instruments, etc.  Moreover, I see David as God's champion, just as Rand is the Creator's champion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 19:04:54
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
i think that in the WoT-Norse relation that Perrin is Thor i thank this becaus they both shown as builders. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-10 10:55:13
subject: <b>I don't think it will be Matt</b>
body:
I think it will be Egwene, cause when she was inside the ter'Angral when she was to be a accepted she betrayed him tree times.<br />I think it reflects the cours her life may take, and she will always betray him, no matter how things turn out. she will probably putt the tower before Rand.<br />And Min saw in a viewing that Gawyn was breaking Egwenes neck, maybe that is the concequence of her making Gawyn follow Rand and then she is the one who betrays him.<br />And Jordan has said in a interview that Rand is partially based on Jesus.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="#E9CFEC"><font face="tahoma"><b>Sansa</b></font></font> <br /><br /><font color="#BDEDFF"><font face="papyrus ms">Come home<br />Major Tom</font></font><br /><br /><font color="#8E35EF"><font face="tahoma"><b>Mary:</b> &quot;I could be a serial killer!&quot;</font></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 16:09:52
subject: <b>Rand as MANY different people</b>
body:
everyone is right and everyone is wrong.  Rand isn't just a Christ-figure.  he isn't just an Arturian-figure.  he isn't just a Norse-figure.  he isn't any ONE thing.  he is ALL of them.  in an RJ chat, RJ confesses that WOT is HIS take on how certain legends/mythos/philosophies COULD have come into being.  in some instances, the legend may involve only one person, yet in reality consisted of up to three people (which is why we see bits and pieces of, say, Thor in all three taveren, i.e. 3 persons became 1 myth) or, say one person becomes the basis for three different myths/legends (the story of rand branching into jesus, thor, and arthur).  i think it highly unrealistic that RJ meant to offend anyone with his ideas.  we have to remember that fiction is exactly that, fiction.  RJ isn't preaching, he's telling an awesome story.  i don't think he's suggesting that Christ didn't exist (and I AM a full-time Catholic).  if you read the series and get that vibe, it's something that is coming from inside yourself.  most of the time, the things that bother us about other people are the things that we interpret about them, and interpretation is ALL ABOUT YOU.<br /><br />as to Mat being the Judas, i just love this theory.  Rand and Mat are both my fav. characters, and to think that one would betray the other totally incites my rage that i just hope it happens.  i'm bad with names, but one of you mentioned a scenario where Mat leads Rand to the Seanchan, then they slip the male adam collar on him (the betrayal).  Mat unwittingly has given up the 'light of the world' (another jesus thing, case you didn't know) to save the other half.  this has so much poetic irony that it screams true!  even if it doesn't happen, kudos to you, my man!  and the other person who mentions the fact that Mat betrayed Rand in his 'other lives' while traveling through the portal stones also gets a large slap on the back!  foreshadowing to the max!  keep on theorizing!


