# w_comment

created: 2002-03-07 16:13:46
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
Norry's position would be a terrible one for Demandred to occupy anyway. Norry doesn't have much influence on anything except on the management of Andor and his job must be a lot of work. I'm sure Demandred found something less demanding for himself (and the same is true if he were Taim, training the Asha'man full-time is too taxing, better leave that to an agent). I can't imagine him as Rahvin's accountant either, nor can I imagine Rahvin accepting that Demandred meddles in his affairs. My guess about Demandred is that he changed his identity a couple of times since the series began.  He does what he has to do and then he moves on. I think he worked first for Ishamael and Graendal to set in Tarabon and Arad Doman to war, he got control of Mazrim Taim with Mesanna's intelligence, he got rid of the &quot;great general&quot; Pedron Niall just before Suroth's Seanchan invaded Amadicia and he could be the one who gives his &quot;prophetic visions&quot; to Masema.<br /><br /><br />That Norry could be a Whitecloak spy or part of a network of clerks is a very interesting theory, though.  I never noticed before the pattern that the top servants everywhere are almost always mentionned by Jordan. Very interesting find.  I'm not totally convinced the servants work in Balwer's network but for sure securing the top servants as spies in Rand's zone and elsewhere would be very interesting, whether for the Whitecloaks or for one the Chosen.  I'd bet that Mesaana and the BA have pretty much secured the Ajahs' networks by now (so many letters disappeared since the beginning of the series, especially in the Blue Ajah) and it would make a lot of sense that the Whitecloaks' spy network has attracted the interest of another Chosen. Much easier to take over control of an existing network than to create one from scratch, especially in a world that is new to you.  Balwer would have made a very interesting subject for Moridin or Demandred to control.  If Norry is a spy, he might not know for whom he's really working for.  Isn't it precisely what Moridin once said, that most of people working for him didn't even know about it?


created: 2002-03-07 20:39:13
subject: <b>We have seen two Forsaken...</b>
body:
Aginor and Baalthamel at the Eye of the World<br /><br />Sammael and Graendel with the Shaido.<br /><br />Lanfear and Asmodean in the Waste.<br /><br />I used to argue that we hadn't, but those are pretty strong indicators that we have.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-08 07:55:24
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but I see absolutely NOTHING of merit in this theory. There is no evidence that Norry is working with the Whitecloaks and the closest anyone can get to anything like it is that there must be someone in Caemlyn reporting to the Whitecloaks, which is an amazingly weak point to use for Norry specifically.<br /><br />As for your dismissal of Demandred being Norry simply because Taim dominates a room too...what does that have to do with anything? Would we dismiss Semirhage being with the Seanchan simply because someone else in the series likes to wear black all the time?


created: 2002-03-08 17:40:07
subject: <b>Time will tell</b>
body:
3inaboat - Mahiro brought that one up, and claimed that just because Norry refused to sit, he was D. Taim did a lot more than that, read the section, and got ignore. My point is that just because he refused to sit, doesn't mean he is D.<br /><br />Dom - The pattern I mentioned is seemingly centered around Rand, for example the following:<br />   - Fal Dara - The shatayan Elansu got more press than would seem right.<br />   - Tear - The majhere was placed fairly central to the goings on there.<br />   - Cairhien - When Rand was kidnapped, the girls became servants to hide, with the statement who suspects the servents being mentioned clearly. There was some senior servant mentioned, but I can't find the ref at the moment.<br />   - Caemlyn - Halwin Norry and Reanne Halfor.<br />Just a pattern I saw.<br />   - Tanicho - Mog was hiding as a servant.<br />   - Tar Valon - The chief cook, that big thing. She's loyal as far as I know.<br /><br />Matrimony - Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, maybe we're both wrong. Time will tell. But it just seems unlikely that D would take on the rigors and stress of a job like Norry's. It doesn't fit his character, he was a governer, not an administrator. Governers give orders and take photo ops, they don't push paper around. That's left to their clerks. Recall Spin City as a perfect example.<br /><br />On a chemical note, alum is a crystalline mineral, not a metal. Tastes incredibly bitter as well and is produced in factories because we mined it out in Europe.<br /><br />Traveller - I just find it odd that Balwer gave Niall highly accurate information about Rand's activities in Caemlyn a short while after, including a description of how he placed the throne on a pedastal and of his army under Bashere (who had just arrived) So his spy has to be in the palace itself, and only Norry and the First Maid remained behind when Rand took over. There may be someone else, but it seems unlikely, and we know Norry corresponds with other people in similar positions.<br /><br />Comments, flames etc welcome.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 23:18:24
subject: <b>Defining the First Clerk</b>
body:
&quot;But it just seems unlikely that D would take on the rigors and stress of a job like Norry's. It doesn't fit his character, he was a governer, not an administrator. Governers give orders and take photo ops, they don't push paper around. That's left to their clerks. Recall Spin City as a perfect example.&quot;<br /><br />The First Clerk, I think is somewhat misnamed.  It is a VERY important postion, and some have said it is akin to Prime minister.  The First Clerk is very much like a governor.  Elayne even stated that Norry practically ran Caemlyn in the days after Rahvin died.  Elayne also showed surprise when she saw an inkspot on Norry's shirt.  She thought he would have workers below him to do that kind of work.  The First Clerk is not like any other Clerk, it is a position with much power.<br /><br />You are right about Norry however.  It is RAFO matter.  There is no conclusive evidence on anything yet.  I am not even sure I believe Demandred is Norry.  My number suspect is that Demandred is himself, #2 is Norry, and #3 is Taim.<br /><br /><br />&quot;On a chemical note, alum is a crystalline mineral, not a metal. Tastes incredibly bitter as well and is produced in factories because we mined it out in Europe.&quot;<br /><br />Good point- I didn't know that.  I would imagine, however, that my theory still applies because the male power is strong in all 'Earth' elements and not just metals.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 23:43:22
subject: <b>&quot;First Maid disliked Norry for an undisclosed reason&quot;</b>
body:
Maybe the First Maid, Reene Harford, dislikes Norry because their duties and responsibilities somewhat overlap. The reason for the dislike may be as simple as a normal, everyday &quot;power struggle.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 02:08:51
subject: <b>to TheUltimateReality</b>
body:
I think you are referring to <b>alumn</b> <i>(potassium aluminum sulphate dodecahydrate)</i> as crystalline, but i always thought that norry's alum is aluminum in randland's term.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 22:23:23
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
you are both right about alum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />n 1: a white crystalline double sulfate of aluminum: the ammonium double sulfate of aluminum


created: 2002-03-11 20:17:16
subject: <b>Norry and his &quot;news&quot;</b>
body:
I read againt the chapters with Norry this week-end.  His exchanges with people from other cities are not really extensive and what he tells Elayne is not even &quot;creative&quot; misinformation, it's the real rumors from the streets that other peole (like Dobraine) report to Rand earlier in the book. I guess that a spy or a Forsaken would provide Elayne with more interesting stuff than that to get her confidence and increase Norry's influence in her decision making process. Basically, it seems to be what Norry is doing, only very much within the limits of his capacities. Overall, it does sound like Norry is loyal to Elayne and quite simply in competition with Renee Harfor. For instance he put on his formal clothes just after she did and tried to hid the ink stains from Elayne, etc.  Clearly these two have a back story of competing for Morgase's favors.    <br /><br />Someone also pointed out the quote about Elayne studying the books and finding out that Norry kept Andor alive almost from the moment where Morgase fell into Rahvin's clutches and the fact he has been vague about it with Elayne as a reason to suspect him.  In fact, it almost proves that Norry is Norry and that he cares for Elayne.  The reason why Norry is vague on this issue is simple to explain if you remember the way Morgase was with Rahvin, she lost her wits and began wearing revealing dresses that Andorans find indecent etc.  No wonder Norry doesn't want to hurt Elayne's feelings about her dead mother by talking about the reasons that made him take over rapidly when Morgase &quot;lost interest&quot; in the management of Andor and began to act like a complete fool.<br /><br />Still the pattern about the top servants in the story is very interesting.  Forsaken (notably Graendal) and Pedron Niall have used rumors and misinformation before. A good way to manipulate events in Andor would certainly be to send false information to Norry.  The same is true for the Whitecloaks.  A good way to use Pedron Niall as a proxy would be to get control of some of Balwer's agents and provide the spy master with carefully chosen misinformation.  Niall definitely acted a couple of times in ways that should have pleased Demandred or one of the others greatly.  For instance the support the CoL gave to the rebellious High Lords in Tear. To provide Balwer with the information about the HL would be an extremely good way to bait Niall to seize the occasion and create more and more chaos by interfering.


created: 2002-03-12 15:33:48
subject: <b>Norry as Norry</b>
body:
1. Alum in the book is alum, the crystalline mineral. It is used in industry (i.e. glass making, etc) being highly alkalai in nature and is a natural purifier.<br />2. The position of Chief Clerk would be more akin to Minister of the Treasury than Prime minister. Prime Minister deals with politics in and out of the country. Treasury Minister would be concerned with the day to day operations of finance and financing the gov't. In that regard, Norry would be called upon to &quot;run&quot; the palace, and maybe even the government of Caemlyn, not Andor as a country. No one would take orders from such a clerk for example on the dispositions of the army or palace guards.<br />3. Norry displays diffidence and humility of the quintesential servant. Even when a forsaken takes position as a servant, they frequently fall out of character (i.e. Halima, even Dashiva). His reluctance to take a seat in the presence of Elayne can be expressed as not wishing to take liberties and unwillingness to put himself as an equal to Elayne.<br />4. Harfor and Norry's mutual antipathy probably stems from the time when Norry ran the palace during Rahvin's time. Every request for money had to pass through Norry and he would be very unwilling to part with so much as a copper unless cost is fully justified and receipts accounted for. Is there anything more grating than an auditor?<br />5. Eyes and Ears do not necessarily mean intentional betrayal. &quot;If you keep me informed of things going on, I'll do the same and send whatever information I get to you...&quot; This would only facilitate someone in Norry's position without him being an intentional spy. In that arena, in order to get information, you must share information. This does not mean he is not a source for Balwer. I do not know where Norry's loyalties lie, but until there is evidence, I am willing to give Norry the benefit of the doubt.<br />6. 4 Forsaken in Caemlyn? Isn't that pushing it a bit?<br />7. Could Demandred actually be the Prophet? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 14:05:20
subject: <b>I have one word for you: conjecture. And, err... Matrimony...?</b>
body:
&lt;quote&gt;If Demandred really was Norry, he would definitely be in the position to probe for Elyane's new stash of metal. Especially since all of his Ashaman are out looking for stones and other materials to build the<br />black tower.&lt;/quote&gt;<br /><br />Sorry, <i>whose</i> Asha'man? Norry doesn't control the Asha'man, and Demandred doesn't either, unless he's Taim, in which case he's not Demandred. Eh???<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 19:05:20
subject: <b>Demandred controls several Ashaman</b>
body:
Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, Gedwyn were all under Demmy's control<br />These are the Ashaman in which I speak.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-16 03:54:26
subject: <b>Forsaken Icon</b>
body:
My question, if Norry is not Demandred, and I want to think he's not, is why did the WH chapter featuring Norry and Elayne begin with a Forsaken icon?  There are only about four characters in this entire chapter -- Elayne, Norry, Dyelin, and Daved Hanlon at the end, as well as the Darkfriend lackeys he kills.  The plot to get Hanlon close to Elayne was orchestrated from above, true, but do we usually see the Forsaken icon in a chapter with no Forsaken?  I didn't think so, but maybe that's just part of the subterfuge.


created: 2002-05-10 15:57:03
subject: <b>Aridhol Strikes Again</b>
body:
For the love... As far as I can tell, the only reason we have to suspect Norry is <br />the fact that RJ has us suspecting everybody. The fact is that Norry does not fit <br />Demandred's character type. He doesn't try to manipulate Elayne, <br />and we've seen no signs of compulsion. We have seen him show fear, nervousness, and discomfort when it comes <br />to the invading 4 armies. Not at all how Demandred, master of battles, would handle the situation. Unless we have <br />reason to believe Demandred himself is an excellent actor (which we do not) Norry doesn't fit at all. I was also <br />under the impression that Norry had been serving in the Palace under Morgase well before any of the Forsaken <br />were loose. <br /><br />The idea of him being part of Balwer's network makes sense, but remember that doesn't make him a Whitecloak.<br />Balwer himself is suspected by Niall of not following the Dogma of the Whitecloaks, and his spies are his own,<br />not Whitecloaks. I also am not inclined to think of Norry as anyone's pawn. Instead, I think Norry, Balwer, and <br />others have potentially set up a mutual share of information with each other to better serve each other's masters.<br />Norry would send information to Balwer and vice versa as they needed, for the sake of sharing up to date <br />information. They wouldn't send secrets or anything like that. Merely up-to-date news that would make each<br />invaluable to their respective employers.<br /><br />But Norry as Demandred? I think that one should be buried and left there. I am still not convinced that Taimandred<br />is wrong, and yes I have read WH. Taim fits the profile perfectly, from personality to strength in the power to views<br />of Aes Sedai. The double message could have been to keep his position hidden from the Asha'man, (and us, as <br />it happens.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 22:49:16
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
I think that Master Norry is likely not Demandred because Demandred is too conceited to be the servant to an Aes Sedai (and all the queens of Andor have some tower training). As far as the Whitecloak part of the theory goes it's pretty seamless. Good job, Norry is a charater who is easy to take for granted. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-12 03:43:54
subject: <b>Demandred's got better things to do...</b>
body:
... than Norry's time consuming job.  Besides, why go to the bother of impersonating Norry when he can just use compulsion on him or beat the information out of him (like someone is doing to Sheriam).<br /><br />Do we really have any evidence that Demandred is active or influential in Andor?<br /><br />By the way, there is excessive mention of servants EVERYWHERE!  To add to the above list, there is Boreane Carivin (servant in Rand's military camp, POD, Message from the M'Hael).  Perhaps someone should compile a complete list for the FAQ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 18:07:01
subject: <b>eh?</b>
body:
this dosen't make much sense.  i have always had the impression that norry was very respectfull to elayne, and that any disrespect would scandalize him to a great degree.


created: 2002-03-07 23:08:23
subject: <b>I don't think it's all that complicated....</b>
body:
....no doubt at one time there were more than thirteen-maybe even 29.  By the time of the Strike at Shayol Gul, only thirteen were left.  How many quotes are there about &quot;whittling away the deadwood&quot; and &quot;scheming against each other?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 00:33:43
subject: <b>among themself (the chosen) others (the forsaken)</b>
body:
the best of the dreadlords were given power and ability beyond that of others. Among themselves they were known as &quot;those chosen to rule the world forever&quot;, or simply &quot;the chosen&quot;. To all others they were know as the forsaken. p.49 (the world of robert jordans wheel of time)<br /><br />yes, there were more then 13 forsakens, but under the war atleast some of them died by the light (balfire) and some by the other forsakens.


created: 2002-03-08 08:07:11
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
And the DO killed others that he suspected of betrayal.<br /><br />Personally I do believe that there were more Chosen/Forsaken once and that they were seperate to the Dreadlords in that they were in this innercircle as it were. However, they were all dead either at the hands of the Light, other Chosen or the DO by the time the Strike happened.<br /><br />I was just wondering...do you think any of the Forsakee alive today in fact didn't come willingly to the Shadow and were turned with a circle of 13 and 13 Myrdraal? It's possible they might not remember their turning.


created: 2002-03-08 08:27:52
subject: <b>Yep, Forsaken=Chosen</b>
body:
Those who forsook <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  the light were called the Forsaken. But in their eyes, they were Chosen for greatness by the Great Lord, as someone else said his Chosen leaders. Even if they weren't the only 13 Forsaken left alive at the time of the Strike, the rest would have died during the Breaking and years following. <br />  I do disagree with 3-in-a-Boat about them being turned using Fades (too early in the day to remember how to spell <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />.) Though it is a very interesting idea, I think it'd be too late in the series for Jordan to throw that in. (Maybe 1 or 2 of them, but not all of them revealing now that they were turned against their will.) It'd kind of take away some of their bad-guyness, we might feel a little sympathetic for them. (I thought Asmodean was getting a bum wrap until I read the Guide.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 10:23:33
subject: <b>I</b>
body:
never suggested that all of them were, I was thinking 1, maybe 2, if the DO or another Forsaken felt it was necessary to get them on his side for whatever reason. I also never thought it would be revealed as such in the series even if it was true, if it was I suspect Jordan would only drop subtle hints here and their for us, the readers, to pick up on if we wanted to, ratehr than anyone in the book finding out about it.


created: 2002-03-08 13:01:16
subject: <b>Of course there were others</b>
body:
Why do people disagree with this? And yeah, all 29 or however many more there were called themselves Chosen while the good guys called them Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 13:17:16
subject: <b>Disagree that forsaken not chosen</b>
body:
Mad Ashaman, if the theory is all forsaken were not chosen, then to disagree means Forsaken=Chosen. Maybe I misread you?<br /><br />3 in a Boat- Thanks for clearing that up. I do concede that for 1 or 2 of the forsaken to have been turned against their will would be kinda neat, especially if it's shown very subtly. Something like a flash back viewing, like what Rand had in Rhuidean. &quot;A mob of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> closed in around Jim-Bo, at least 10(12?), maybe more. He drew his sword and flowed in the Dog-Squatting-in-the-Bushes stance....&quot; Even that is too overt, but I do like the idea.<br /><br />Book 13, final battle.<br />&quot;You will die NOW Moridin,&quot; Rand cried.<br />&quot;It's not fair,&quot; the Naeblis whined. &quot;I was turned against my will by a circle of 13 fades channeled through by 13 dreadlords. I only want to bake pastries and make the kids happy.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 14:57:16
subject: <b>I was always under the impression</b>
body:
that they all started as dreadlords, or something equivalent, and through their accomplishments rose to the &quot;chosen&quot;, which would be the inner circle of power for the shadow.  I also believe the number &quot;13&quot; to be significant.  <br /><br />It could be possible that the DO chose those 13 most powerful Aes Sedai that were serving him as a plan to turn Lews Therin to the shadow against his will.  With many Aes Sedai serving the DO, he could have his choice as to which 13 he choose.  The word &quot;chosen&quot; just implies to much to just mean &quot;the most powerful of the group&quot;.  The number 13 is also too coincidental to be overlooked.  Maybe that is why they were at SG, to get their instructions on how to accomplish turning Lews Therin.<br /><br />Obviously, though, I have no idea as to what is correct.  We just haven't been given enough information.<br /><br />I would like to see a theory exploring the &quot;why&quot; behind 13 Chosen, when it is more efficient in battle to have one clear leader and a distinct hierarchy of command.  I think there had to be a plot that involved the number 13.  Well, that's my opinion...


created: 2002-03-08 15:00:15
subject: <b>As to the theory</b>
body:
I just think that &quot;forsaken&quot; is the name everybody else that is not a DF calls the Chosen.  I don't think there is a discrepancy between the two as far as number is concerned.  This is similar to the whole &quot;DO vs. Great Lord of the Dark&quot; thing.


created: 2002-03-08 15:44:54
subject: <b>To Dedric</b>
body:
The Chosen didn't work like that, all 13 didn't do the same job. Moghedien for example would never have led in battle, but she was an excellent spy and of course her abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod helped her gain the position.<br /><br />As for an overall leader...that'll be the DO. Then again Ishamael was accepted as leader to a certain extent.


created: 2002-03-08 19:16:00
subject: <b>Three In A Boat</b>
body:
Your right, there was a lot going on besides the war, and perhaps my analogy to battle was misplaced.  However, I still insist that there is a reason that the Chosen number 13.  Doesn't the guide say that Lews Therin and the Companions went to SG and found the 13 most powerful forsaken there?  Maybe I am reading too much into it, but there is one piece of evidence to support my theory.  Everytime the Forsaken go to SG they are given instructions on what to do.  That is the only reason for going.  It is not like Shayol Ghul is the &quot;darkside water cooler&quot; where everybody hangs out.  If there were 13 there at once, then the instructions pertained to all 13, perhaps coordinating something massive.  It was not for &quot;news from the world&quot;, as was asked of Demandred, since it would not take all 13 to do this.  And, it was not merely a general order, since we have seen all orders of this nature given in TAR.  It had to be something pertaining to all 13.<br /><br />If not, I just feel that the shadow is terribly inefficient with its resources.


created: 2002-03-08 20:38:46
subject: <b>I always understood</b>
body:
that there were more forsaken, forsaken being those the DO had granted immortality to and the use of the TP, in the AoL. If the number thirteen is significant, and if there was some kind of plot going on, you gotta wonder about the DO's choices. Aginor might have been a brilliant genetiscist and such, but he has twice proven himself VERY feeble when it comes to getting his hands dirty. Asmodean, Be'lal, both either died or were captured fairly easily. Balthamel has already been killed too. So, either the D.O. had a very thin bench and had to call up the losers to fill out his numbers, or these were the only forsaken left alive at that point in the War of Power and there is no plot.


created: 2002-03-09 01:31:36
subject: <b>i have to agree with bastian</b>
body:
i can't imagine asmo to be very powerfull. i mean. what is his contribution to DO?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 07:51:58
subject: <b>Demandred's thought WsH chpt13 pg 316 HB edition</b>
body:
<i>He had hoped to have al'Thor dead-or failing that, captive-before this suspicion reared its head. During the War of Power, more than a dozen of the Chosen had died of the Great Lord's suspicion. </i><br /><br />That would fit with 29 others only, have been given the right to use the True Power. ie: Chosen = the right to use the True Power.<br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 12:44:45
subject: <b>To cybrmnk</b>
body:
Sorry I wasn't to clear. I agree with didric that Forsaken is to Chosen as D.O. is to Great lord of the Dark, so I disagree with the original theory on that point. However, I do belive that there were more Forsaken/Chosen in the AoL, at leats the 29 that could use the TP. I Thank Simon for the quote from Demandred's PoV saying that at least 12 Chosen/Forsaken died in the War of the Power<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 15:19:02
subject: <b>13 Chosen</b>
body:
I have wondered about the fact that there were 13 chosen at SG wen the seal was bored, and wondered if it had any significance. The way RJ writes, I think a lot of us have tried to find meaning in the smallest things, because the smallest things often have meaning. Could it be the DO was trying to turn LTT?<br /><br />As far as Asmo being weak, remember we had been subdued by Lanfear, who was probably the second strongest channeler of all the forsaken. In other words, she wasn't exactly a cream puff. I realize from the readers point of view he looks like a puny musician, but from the guide, he was still a bad person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 17:52:48
subject: <b>how about not all the choosen were forsaken</b>
body:
In winters heart Greandal comments on how many of the choosen have died because of the great lords suspicion<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;so exactly what sound does a goat make when you throw it out a window?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 15:00:11
subject: <b>Turak</b>
body:
I think you're confused with the Demandred thought that Simon has quoted above. Unless Graendal said it too of course.<br /><br />Lanfear was not the second strongest of the Forsaken. That is something people of the present day mistakenly believe like men and women being equal in strength in the power. Sammael and Rahvin were definitely stronger as is shown near the beginning of FoH I believe, Demandred is stronger as he was only just behind LTT in strength, Ishamael is clearly stronger and it looks like Aginor was too as it appears he was in fact the second strongest Forsaken as apparently he met LTT stroke for stroke.<br /><br />Lanfear is undoubtedly the strongest of the women, but at least 5 of the men were ahead of her. She was probably just stronger than Asmodeon and I really couldn't say with Bel'al. I think she was stronger than Balthamel too.


created: 2002-03-11 18:05:19
subject: <b>Lanfear's Strength</b>
body:
To quote the guide directly, &quot;The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear.&quot; That's straight from RJ himself. I realize that the book mentions several times that sometimes people are so close in strength the only way to see who the stronger is to have a contest. I'm not sure where you suggest she is only the fifth strongest, unless you are suggesting that the guide is based on flawed knowledge. If that is the case, I'm sorry I paid money for it. But if that is what you are suggesting, could you please reference where you obtained that information? Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 19:33:48
subject: <b>Sigh</b>
body:
I don't have quotes, but I can assure you the following is all within the actual books and not the guide:<br /><br />Ishamael is the strongest Forsaken for definite, equal to LTT in power. Therefore, stronger than Lanfear.<br /><br />Aginor matched LTT in battle stroke for stroke, therefore must only just be weaker than him. Therefore, stronger than Lanfear.<br /><br />When Lanfear is meeting with Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael, she mometarily gets distracted by Graendal I think and Rahvin feels Sammael draw on the source and prepare to attack Lanfear. He stops Sammael but in his thoughts we see that either he or Sammael could defeat Lanfear. Therefore these 2 are stronger than Lanfear.<br /><br />There you go, 5 are definitly stronger.<br /><br />Besides, we know from Moghedien I think that the natural difference in strength in the power between men and women is roughly the same as the natural strength advantage men have over women. Now we're talking some of the most powerful channelers who have ever lived here. Thinking in terms of strength, the strongest woman in the world may well be able to defeat almost all men, but at least the top 100 strongest men will all be able to beat her. Therefore Lanfear, the strongest woman in the world (or she was anyway) will be able to beat almost anyone, but the strongest men will be able to beat her and undoubtedly these Forsaken are among the strongest.<br /><br />I don't have my guide with me, but I'm sure it has some comment in it that not all the information should be considered fact and they may change in the actual books.


created: 2002-03-11 19:35:13
subject: <b>Damn</b>
body:
Forgot Demandred. Demandred was only just worst at everything than LTT, including strength in the Power. Therefore he's stronger than Lanfear.


created: 2002-03-12 10:00:07
subject: <b>problem with POV thoughts on strength....</b>
body:
.....just because you believe it doesn't make it true.  So, just because Rahvin believed either he or Sammael could take Lanfear easily, doesn't mean he was right.  The female Foresaken know the trick of concealing your true strength-Mesaana does it when she appears to Alviarin, Moggie did it when she hid as Glenda among the BA, and Marigan in Salidar so that surrounded by Aes Sedai, no one even knew she could channel.  How do we know that Lanfear ever let ANYONE sense her true strength???  Maybe Rahvin was right and he, Sammy, Demandred, Aginor and Ishy were all stronger, but just because he thought it was so doesn't prove anything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 11:00:54
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
It doesn't prove anything, but Lanfear has always been one for showing off and I can't imagine having always hidden her strength from the other Forsken (some of who will have known her from before they turned to the Shadow, why would she have hidden her strength back then?). Besides we've seen how annoyed Cyndane is that she's lost some of her strength, so clearly she isn't disguising what she can handle now. Yet Graendal has told Demandred that this Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear yet still stronger than herself...which would almost certainly not be the case if Lanfear had been disguising her strength in the power all along.


created: 2002-03-12 14:27:34
subject: <b>This is getting off the original thread...</b>
body:
...but what if Sammael and Rahvin thought they could defeat her because they were military leader types, and Lanfear was more of a behind the scenes type of person, and  used TAR for most of her covert operations. They may just be knowlegeable about weaves used to kill, maime, and destroy. The stronger person doesn't always win a fight, just the person who fights better.<br /><br />Also, it seems like it says somewhere that although men were stronger than women, women had additional abilities that balanced out thier comparative weakness. But I don't recall exactly what that was refering to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 20:18:29
subject: <b>Ya</b>
body:
that sounds right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 19:02:44
subject: <b>Strength</b>
body:
&quot;Yet Graendal has told Demandred that this Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear yet still stronger than herself...which would almost certainly not be the case if Lanfear had been disguising her strength in the power all along.&quot;<br /><br />That's probably right.  Is it even possible to hide your strength when you link with someone of your sex? I guess the female Chosen know about one another but never talked of each others' strength to the males, so that the males can't know how strong any pair, trio etc. of them could be when/if linked.  That's a tactical advantage they must have wanted to preserve in case of an open fight between them. I think it's skills they probably hide from one another. For instance Graendal hinted once or twice that she knows extremely subtle forms of Compulsion but makes sure to flaunt her pets in front of the others, probably so they believe they can detect any of her clumsily and heavy-handed Compulsed spies. Convenient if she wants to infiltrate less detectable spies near Rahvin or Sammael, for instance. <br /><br />OTOH, Graendal believed Cyndane to be Lanfear initially and it's Mesaana who told her that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear. It's not too clear if Mesaana knew Lanfear to be stronger than Graendal believed her to be or if Graendal didn't bother to observe Cyndane's strength when she was visited by her and Moghedien.  I'd guess it's the second choice.  Graendal first thought Cyndane was a darkfriend from this age, and she was a bit overwhelmed by SH afterward. She probably didn't bother to ascertain Cyndane's strength and only later it dawned on her she could be Lanfear.   <br /><br />In any case, to make that kind of remarks at all it implies that the Chosen believe (or know) that strength in the Power is linked to a Soul, not to a body.


created: 2002-03-14 19:41:47
subject: <b>The guide says</b>
body:
that men have more strength, and women have more ability with skill.  That is how it balances out.  Linking is also an advantage, yet sooner or later a man is needed for that, too.<br /><br />What interests me is Lanfear's/Cyndane's insistence in &quot;With the Choedan Kal&quot; that it was &quot;impossible&quot; for another woman to be as strong as she used to be.  She thinks this when she is facing (DAMN, if forgot her name...the ex-damane).  The word impossible is emphasized.  Is this just pride, or could it be that Lanfear somehow ensured that she would be the strongest woman, maybe via the Finn, and that is why she lost some strength.  As we know, you can only visit one doorway once.  So, maybe if you try to enter again, the bargain you made is void and they take it back.  Or, again, maybe it is just pride.


created: 2002-03-14 21:25:39
subject: <b>I have</b>
body:
wondered as much before about that comment Dedric. It looks innocuous, but that's exactly why I'm suspicious, Jordan rarely flings hints in our face, it's the little sidecomments that we need to watch out for.<br /><br />As for Graendal, we see her conciously registering that Cyndane is stronger than herself when she first meets her, but she doesn't link her with Lanfear. Why should she? Lanfear was stronger and would likely never have worked with the spider.


created: 2002-03-20 14:34:47
subject: <b>Lanfear is the most powerful Female Forsaken but . . .</b>
body:
She would be no match for any of the men. I know that sounds inflammatory but let me explain. <br /><br />The quote from the Guide that Lanfear was &#8216;. . . possibly the most powerful of all (the Forsaken) next to Ishamael (pg 61)&#8217; is clearly hearsay. This section of the Guide is headed by a paragraph basically stating that all information gathered on the Forsaken was pieced together from various fragments of second-hand reports spanning 3000+ years of history and has been collected and is related to you by a human inhabitant of the World of Wheel of Time.<br /><br />This Guide seems to be compiled by a PRESENT DAY scholar, (though he does not identify himself) living in the Westlands who has recently discovered new historical evidence concerning the Age of Legends. Thus, this is not the Omnipotent Narrator from whom we can follow the novels and see all the various POVs of Rand, Mat, Egwene, and so on. If you don't beleive just read a couple pages of the Guide again and see how it's written. <br /><br />No, in the Guide we get a first person essay from a researcher and historian who, like all historians, must report events and make hypotheses on a time long removed from their own with naught but the imperfect and often prejudiced evidence found only in the reports and accounts of earlier historians. <br /><br />This writer, who by his writing is clearly not an Aes Sedai or Asha&#8217;man, has grown up in the present and can be forgiven for not having any first hand knowledge of Lanfear and for his inaccurate approximation of her strength in the Power. His understanding of the Power is greatly influenced by what is commonly believed by PRESENT DAY Aes Sedai. They are the current authority on all that has to do with the One Power and who would dare gainsay them? <br /><br />We know from Moraine that most present day Aes Sedai believe that men and woman are equal in the Power. Since there has not been a great deal of male channellers in the past 3000 years, there was not much evidence to refute this belief. But from Asmodean and other Forsaken (as stated above me) we learn from those who were actually around in the Age of Legends, that the distribution in strength in the Power of a man and a woman will be roughly the same as their distribution of physical strength.<br />


created: 2002-03-20 14:36:28
subject: <b>The Numbers</b>
body:
Now of course there will be relatively weak men, and relative strong women, but for the most part men will be a good deal stronger than women. In the real world, I happen to be an amateur bodybuilder. A &#8220;strength expert&#8221; you might say. I think I know enough about human physiology to comment on the difference in strength between men and women, especially very strong men and very strong women.<br /><br />Now given that the rule of Power distribution in men and women is indeed similar to the distribution of strength, and that the distribution of strength in WOTWorld is similar to that of our own, I can prove that Lanfear could not have been close to as strong any of the Male Forsaken.<br /><br />Having employed resistance strength training for many years I feel safe endorsing the results of the New England Journal of Medicine&#8217;s fitness study conducted four years ago involving 10,000 men and 10,000 women of all ages, ethnic backgrounds and industries. <br /><br />Each man and woman was tested in a local health club and asked to do perform a One-Rep-Max of barbell squats and a variety of other common weight-room exercises in an attempt to find the average &#8220;natural&#8221; strength of men vs. women. The squat is one of the best indicators of a person&#8217;s over all strength (if not at all the only one).<br /><br />To make a long story short here are the findings that I think would be most relevant in determining how many average female channellers it would take to equal an average male channeller in strickly overall strength:<br /><br />The average man tested weighed 174 lbs. and squatted 351. lbs. (figures are rounded up)<br />The average woman weighed 116 lbs. and squatted 86 lbs.<br />Strength ratio - Man to Woman : 4.1 to 1 (351/86=4.1)<br /><br />So we can estimate that it would take more than four average strength female channellers (unlinked) to equal one average male channeller.<br /><br />Thats fine for our basic Aes Sedai to Asha&#8217;man ratio, but surely the results for the Forsaken (perhaps the strongest channellers in the world) must be different. <br /><br />Well I did some research on the Internet and found Guinness&#8217; worlds strongest man and woman (or at least those with the heaviest squats &#8211; and in the interests of expediency lets equate the two). <br />The current Guinness world record for men&#8217;s squats is 1047 lbs.<br />The current women&#8217;s world record is 508 lbs.<br /><br />Still more than 2 to 1. So from this evidence we can say that Lanfear (the strongest woman in the world) could at most be only half the strength as Rand (the strongest man) and that all the male Forsaken (even Asmodean) would be a good deal stronger than her strictly in the overall amount of the Power they could draw. Now this obviously doesn&#8217;t mean that she would be easy meat for them (as she has a great deal of knowledge, cunning, and skill &#8211; the strongest guy isn&#8217;t necessarily the most dangerous fighter) but she would be at a disadvantage.<br /><br />So how did she put that shield on Asmodean at the end of TSR? Well, if you remember Rand and Asmo had just had huge duel with the Choeden Kal and were so tired they couldn&#8217;t even stand, let alone channel. Weakened as he was, Asy had no chance.<br /><br />But why in the Guide is it stated that Lanfear was possibly the &#8216;most powerful of all next to Ishamael&#8217;? As I stated above that sentence is hearsay. The writer was giving his best account of someone who may have lived as many as 3500 years before his time. <br /><br />Lanfear was undoubtedly the strongest woman of her time and noted as such. More powerful than most men but not the strongest. Then war came. And madmen broke the world. Civilization dwindled and immeasurable knowledge was lost. For 3000+ years the only people who could channel were women. Since the ONE POWER was equal they began to think that men who could channel would be no stronger than they.<br /><br />So now 3000 years later a researcher finds that Lanfear was absolutely the most powerful woman of her time. So by the writer&#8217;s logic, since men and women were equal in the Power in the AOL, Lanfear must have been as strong as the strongest man, or nearly so. See, this is just hearsay.<br /><br />Now I&#8217;ll admit that Asmodean&#8217;s words to Rand could be less than completely accurate. But Rahvin thought he could overpower Lanfear and if necessary Grendhael as well. I think this principal works because with these numbers (1045/86 = 12.1) Rand would be about twelve times as strong as the average female channeller (or a weak Aes Sedai). Thus they would need a full circle of 13 strong Aes Sedai to overcome him.<br /><br />I know it&#8217;s hard to apply a mathematical equation to fantasy (and I don&#8217;t claim that it is exact) but I just wanted to prove that Lanfear could not be stronger than Dem, Rahv, and Co. Did I or not?<br />


created: 2002-03-21 14:30:28
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
I seem to recall that Asmo had already been partially severed before he and Rand got into their little to-do. Maybe I'm wrong. That does not matter. It looks to me like Lanfear was stronger than Asmo, een if she was not stronger than any other of the male forsaken.<br /><br />All I had attempted to do was show that Asmo may have been weak for a forsaken, but he was still a strong channeler. The guide also says that &quot;The 13 most powerful were gathered...&quot; Does this reflect the aurthors lack of knowledge as well, and maybe these Forsaken were not that strong. Does that mean the the 13 present consisted of the strongest men and the strongest women, but the men could still kick ass over the women, and that there were actually stronger men, but because of political correctness, they had to have so many women included in the meeting to avoid an ACLU lawsuit?<br /><br />I don't think I agree with the mathimatical evaluation you have spent so much time doing. I think this whole thing is just to qualitative to quantify. But, then, I'm not that good with numbers. Thats why I became an engineer. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 03:37:45
subject: <b>Okay, I agree with you . . .</b>
body:
. . . on one point.  It&#8217;s almost silly to try to come up with an exact formulative equation to prove anything scientifically in a fantasy world.  It&#8217;s fantasy.  But I was not trying to do so.  And believe me, I didn&#8217;t spend that much time on it.<br /><br />I was just trying to give a logical explanation for the reason women are gifted with the ability to link, and why it often takes many of them to overcome a single man.  Balance.  It would be unfair that men couldn&#8217;t link with each other if they were not significantly stronger than women.  We have solid evidence that they are much stronger.  It is a matter of balance.<br /><br />Remember that whenever a male channeller is discovered the Tower attempts to get at least eight Aes Sedai together to overwhelm him.  And then six to hold the shield on him at all times.  There is certainly a reason for this.  If the average man is four times stronger than the average woman (as my numbers make it) it would be horribly dangerous to approach a half-mad male channeller with anything less than vastly superior fire-power.  And sometimes even eight are not enough.  Rolin Darksbane killed two Aes Sedai and stilled three more, though we don&#8217;t know how many tried to overcome him.  Clearly not enough.<br /><br />Logain was also more than a match for the first eight they sent against him.  Take these bits of history and add what Asy told Rand about the way strength in the Power is distributed.  You can come up with you own &#8216;equation&#8217;, but it&#8217;s quite clear that a very powerful man will be stronger than a very powerful woman, no matter what the numbers are.  It&#8217;s just the laws of physiology.<br /><br />And to your point . . .<br />&#8216;The guide also says that &quot;The 13 most powerful were gathered...&quot; Does this reflect the aurthors lack of knowledge as well, and maybe these Forsaken were not that strong. Does that mean the 13 present consisted of the strongest men and the strongest women, but the men could still kick ass over the women, and that there were actually stronger men, but because of political correctness, they had to have so many women included in the meeting to avoid an ACLU lawsuit?&#8217;<br /><br />Yes and no.  There were certainly more powerful male Dreadlords than Lanfear, Grendy, and Moggy, (so here the writer is regurgitating inaccurate information) but pure power was not the only thing the Dark One was looking for.  You can be sure these ladies had many, many other marketable talents to put on their resume&#8217;s.  <br /><br />Moggy developed the most intricate spy network in the world.  Semrihage could take human torture beyond what anyone thought possible and break even the strongest mind.  Lanfear&#8217;s use of TAR gained the Shadow vast territories without having to fire a single Shocklance.  It&#8217;s a mistake to think that just because they were not the most powerful channellers in the world they didn&#8217;t deserve to be the Chosen.<br /><br />So in a sense the author had it right when he said &#8220;The 13 most powerful were gathered . . . &#8221; because in their particular fields, no one outstripped them.  But, as I&#8217;ve stated, these ladies were not the Shadow&#8217;s most powerful channellers.  The DO already had brilliant military talent in Sammy and D-man, and crushing violent strength and skill in Ishy and Rahvin.  He didn&#8217;t need any more arrogant muscle. <br /><br />RJ wasn&#8217;t being politically correct when he included five women in list of &#8220;Those whom you would least like to meet in a dark alley&#8221;.  They earned their place at the top. <br /><br />Please, if anyone thinks I&#8217;m off in my premise or calculations, by all means, flame away.  If anyone has something to add, please do so.  I think this topic should be discussed. We should get a consensus here.  <br /><br />Keep it comin'!<br /><br />The Kahn<br />


created: 2002-03-26 12:21:45
subject: <b>Another Fact</b>
body:
In A Crown of Sword, when Rand is visiting the Sea Folk, he makes a bridge from air and fire, and remarks to himself how noone knew why a women could make a longer bridge than a man, even if he was stronger in the power. (Pg. 685 paperback).<br /><br />Maybe thats just because women have a knack with air and water? I just thought I would throw that out, not really in an attempt to disprove or prove anyones points. Its just the way it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 00:12:28
subject: <b>The Forsaken were Those Chosen to Rule the World Forever</b>
body:
Also, Asmodean's whole plot was to swipe the access keys to the Choedan Kal. He damn near succeeded, and if Rand hadn't had his nifty little angreal...


created: 2004-10-15 18:25:42
subject: <b>Duh!</b>
body:
Sorry, I didn't read many posts but who really cares what their names were (Chosen vs. Forsaken). Does it really make a difference? I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 21:55:25
subject: <b>The problems of the Tuatha'an.</b>
body:
OK. obviously I can't give you the whole list of problems but I can give you one big one. The seekers can not find the song yet. Well, there you have it. I said it. You heard me. The seekers and indeed all of the Tuatha'an who have searched for the song since the breaking have missed the point of reference from which the hunt started. You see, the song is not a song. No that was not a typo, I said THE song is not A song. The seekers have searched for A song since the breaking, but THE song is simply a way of saying that once all of the world unites to overthrow the shadow, then and only then can a new age of legends begin. What better place for such an occurrence than DURING Tarmon Gai'don, not before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> I am The Dragon Reborn...<br /><br />...................Reborn............<br />........Reborn................<br />.................................Reborn...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I hate it when it does that!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Damn Wheel!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 21:55:47
subject: <b>The Song</b>
body:
I had always thought that the song would come to the Tinkers through the Aiel, since in the Age of Legends the Aiel were Tinkers. But since Rand is, in a way, Aiel, then It would make since that he has found it. The first time I read EotW I didn't catch that part. Good Job! I like this theory!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Give a man pride over arrogance, and he will defeat his rival.Give him a sword, and he will defeat an ordinary man or lesser being.Give him a crown, and he will conquer legions and empires.Give him Immortality, and there is nothing left to conquer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 11:57:08
subject: <b>The Wrong Song</b>
body:
I think that Rand HAS heard a bit of The Song before, but not the song that was in his dream of Dragonmount and the White Tower.  When Rand goes to Rhuidean and walks among the crystal spires he sees his history, indeed the history of all the Aiel.  In fact, when he sees back far enough he sees the Ogier, the Nym and the D'aishain Aiel singing/Singing to the freshly planted crops.  I believe that this is The Song the Tuathan are searching for.  After all, a Song that can cause crops to spring from the earth would be quite fitting for people that follow the Way of the Leaf.  (And I can't get it out of my head, so I'll say it; In TEoTW, in the prologue, when Lews first sees Ishmael, he welcomes him and asks him if he knows The Song... what's up there?).<br /><br />The Traveler<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 12:12:42
subject: <b>Song and Dreams</b>
body:
Your theory (an astute observation), made me think of something else:  When I believe it was the Aiel dreamers were instructing Nynavae and Elayne (reluctantly), they stressed that NEED was the key.  <br /><br />Have there been Tinker dreamers? Likely not, since the Talent needs training and they don't send their people to the Tower or the Waste (formalized training). <br /><br />That Rand heard the Song in a dream makes sense, since the Dreamworld spans all the others.<br /><br />This lends some credence to Perrin finding the song (and Rand maybe recognizing), because in his Wolf-dreams he can travel to TAR. AND he's familiar with the Tinkers' search.


created: 2002-03-09 19:35:56
subject: <b>It's a metaphor</b>
body:
All the song means is that everyone is coming together in unisen. It doesn't matter the exact tune, but everyone has to bind together in order for Rand to face his future. Everyone singing different songs to meld into one melody shows how everyone will be working in whatever way they can in order to reach the same mutual goal; getting rid of the DO.<br />I do agree with the theory, though. Good job.


created: 2002-03-10 19:20:52
subject: <b>Aiel heritige and the Growing Song</b>
body:
Rand heard the song when he went back through his Aiel ancestors to the AoL. It was sung by Ogier and Aiel together to help crops grow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 13:18:49
subject: <b>The Traveler and Mad Ashaman are Right</b>
body:
The Aiel and the Ogier sang the song.  And the Green Man danced for them.  That is the song that the Tinkers are looking for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 09:25:52
subject: <b>The Growing Song</b>
body:
I don't agree with this idea of the song merely being a metaphor. The Tinkers are the descendents of the D'aishain Aiel, who, as we have seen, used a song as a powerful devise of creation (growing those crops). It therefore seems likely to me that such a powerful tool will will actually make a return. The Tinkers turn up too much just for their role to be to provide the message that the forces of the light need to work together- I think Rand et al can work that out for themselves<br /><br />If there is an actual song and it is the growing song (which is what I believe) does this suggest the Nym might make a return? I'm a little vague on this but I seem to remember the Nym were created with the One Power (could be entirely wrong on that, tell me if I am) so possibly new ones might be created.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 10:20:24
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
They find the song sing to the DO his heart sheds darkness and he implodes from the first inkling of good he's ever truly felt<br />


created: 2002-04-01 10:17:09
subject: <b>Great job</b>
body:
Good theory.  I liked it, and I agree.  However, there's another piece of evidence there.  It could be what Lews Therin refers<br />to in book 1's prologue when he says that &quot;it will soon be time for the Singing stranger, and here all are welcome to<br />take part&quot;.  Since the Tinkers started out looking for the songs their ancestors sung (see books 4 and 5 for details)<br />it seems logical they could look for that.  That could also be the same song as in the dream.  It'd make sense wouldn't<br />it?


created: 2002-05-01 20:40:26
subject: <b>a different take on the song</b>
body:
Ok, I like your theory. And it actually works well. but what I propose to you is what happened when Rand was in the waste. In Rhuindu(sp) rand had visions of manu &quot;Green Men&quot;, Ogier and Humans alike. and they sang a song that was awsome at the core a song of creation and peace.  Now Tinkersfollow  The Way of the Leaf why woiuld the just look for one melodius song? Why not the song of creation and peace as the Green Men, ogier, and variosu people of WoTland sung? ( BTW Im new and Signed up just for you Theroy Feel Special.


created: 2002-05-12 04:50:47
subject: <b>uhu</b>
body:
The green men/nym are living Ter'angreal, they are required for the song to work, aiel have one part, ogier have another and the nym puts them together..... simple, now a Channeler of saidin/saidar might be able to replace the nym: this im not sure of though


created: 2003-01-26 10:23:35
subject: <b>he has</b>
body:
Rand found the song, but he found it in the ter'angreal he walked through in rhuidean.  I think those people were just happy to see him, the Dragon Reborn.


created: 2003-05-15 14:20:15
subject: <b>Tinker Tunes</b>
body:
I always thought that the passage mentioned in the theory post here from The Eye of The World, was just a matter of the noises clamouring together. I don't really feel that it has much connection at all to the song, ahem, Song, that the Tinkers are looking for. I believe the Song they're looking for will be the treesong that Ogier, particularly Loial, can sing.<br /><br />That would be nice, but it may very well come form the Aiel. That would be more appropriate, the reuniting or reunion or a race of people that had previously split apart. How Jordanic.<br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen<br />Fire to blind<br />Music to dazzle<br />Iron to bind.&quot;<br />      --said when starting a game of snakes and foxes


created: 2002-03-08 22:52:17
subject: <b>Get over it...</b>
body:
If Taim turns out to be Demandred I'll kill myself on public television. Seriously, how much more proof is needed before this theory is squelched? Demandred works through proxies, he doesn't get directly envolved. Demandred didn't recognize Flinn when Flinn was one of the origninal Ashaman recruited by Taim.  And last but not least, Demandred and Taim give redundent orders to the renegade ashaman about finding Rand. I don't mean to be overly aggressive but I think the time for speculation on this theory is past it's time.


created: 2002-03-08 23:11:40
subject: <b>You didn't include all the possibilties</b>
body:
I agree with Narishma and most others that Taim is not Demandred.<br />    I think evidence indicates that Taim is either an agent of Demandred or of Graendal, both of whom knew of Asmodean's death.  Since Taim is so close to Rand, I would imagine that his Forsaken master would divulge important information about other Forsaken to Taim, because Taim has to be ready from attacks from other Forsaken, and because he has to appear like he knows alot in order to maintain status in Rand's eyes.  <br />    We have seen one other example where Taim slipped a quote that was intended to turn Rand's attention on Sammael.  In Letters in LoC, Taim suggested that Sammael sent the gray man, and also that if he were Sammael he would ward Illian in blocks to know immediately when another man channeled in the city.  This sounds very much like another Forsaken sending an indirect message to Rand, to forcus his attention on Sammael.  <br />It actually sounds quite like Graendal to do something like this.  <br />    I think that quote about Sammael and Demandred may have been part of Taim's instructions from his Forsaken Master, to focus more attention on Sammael and Demandred.  So it very well could be Graendal's work there also.  My answer to your question is that Taim knows of Asmodean's death because another Forsaken told him: most likely Demandred or Graendal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 00:17:04
subject: <b>Asmodean</b>
body:
is exactly one of the most famous or notorious Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 00:26:52
subject: <b>Gentleman, Taimandred is alive and well</b>
body:
Mr. Badass,<br /><br />The Demandred-Flinn encounter proves absolutely nothing. It is ambiguous to say the least. We have no idea how good a look Demandred got of Flinn. And Flinn wasn't wearing Asha'man atire. <br /><br />Since we know that Power-enhancement of vision is a function of the volume of Power the channler holds, Demandred may simply have been too far away, and not holding enough of the Power to see Flinn.<br /><br />It's entire unclear what Demandred actually saw. <br /><br />He fails to recognize Aes Sedai agelessness on Sarene and Corele. Now come on here. <br /><br />(1) Demandred has been around for two years now. Is it possible he has no clue what agelessness is in a woman?<br /><br />(2) Even if Demandred has never seen an Aes Sedai, we have to remember that he's from the AoL. The effects of a binding ter'angreal would be a basic part of an AoL Aes Sedai's education.<br /><br />(3) Even if Demandred skipped all his classes and became the second most acclaimed man in the AoL entirely by accident, he should have noticed something odd about the two Aes Sedai. In TEOTW, Rand a Two Rivers shepherder noticed Moiraine's agelessness. Demandred should have at least noted that he couldn't put an age on the women, but he didn't.<br /><br />These three points entirely taint the Flinn encounter.<br /><br />***<br /><br />Demandred most certainly did not give redundant orders to the renegades. KISMAN interprets them as redundant, but they are far from that.<br /><br />Hypothetically, if Taim were Demandred, he would have acted the same way in WH.<br /><br />It is unclear whether killing Rand is sanctioned by the Dark One. Taimandred would have no choice but to give the order the way he did.<br /><br />&quot;Taim&quot; tells the renegades to kill Rand. But it's too late, the renegades have already been exposed as the assassins in Cairhien. <br /><br />Hypothetically, if the renegades succeed in killing Rand, taim could be in big trouble, since as exposed assassins Taim's lackeys would probably head straight back to Taim after finishing the deed. Taim's part in the killing would be exposed.<br /><br />Enter Demandred.<br /><br />Demandred gives the same order. Or something close. Since we only have Kisman's account of what happened, we can't really know for sure (I doubt Demandred would call Taim &quot;the M'Hael&quot; as Kisman seems to recall).<br /><br />However, Demandred adds a stipulation to the order. he says, not to be exposed by anyone, 'including the &quot;M'Hael&quot;'.<br /><br />Demandred is in effect shielding Taim by ordering the renegades not to go back to him even if they succeed. They are NOT TO BE EXPOSED. So succeed or fail, Demandred is telling them to stay away from Taim.<br /><br />Face it, Taimandred lives. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />***<br /><br />Matrimony,<br /><br />You make a very good point.<br /><br />My only response would be to argue that the Forsaken would be unlikely to divulge information about Forsaken weaknessess to their subordinates.<br /><br />There is no scenario I can imagine where Taim, as a Darkfriend, would absoltuely need that kind of information about Asmodean, because I think absolute need is the only way a Darkfriend would ever get it.<br /><br />Still, that's all just my conjecture. There are other possibilities, as you have pointed out.


created: 2002-03-09 03:05:26
subject: <b>mr teljanin, mr badass</b>
body:
Maybe we read too much into a few words. maybe demandred didn't recognize the ashaman because he is myopic/shortsighted. He didn't want to cure his eyes for the same reason as sammael chose not to remove his scar. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />bottom line, we don't have enough evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 06:03:48
subject: <b>I think it is meaningless.</b>
body:
It is just a rhetorical flourish: RJ picks out 2 names at random.  It wouldn't occur to him to give a long list of all the surviving male forsaken.<br /><br />Now, as to the other posts:  my heart still wants Taim to be Demandred.  There is evidence on both sides.  But I tend to go  with the idea he isn't after all.  I hope he is though!!<br /><br />If Taim is just Taim, he was working at the direction of Arangar (is this the right way round? I can never remember which of the knives is which) who was, as we now know, posing as Dashiva.  This is why he was so outraged when he discovered Dashiva was present at the assassination attempt on Rand.  Arangar had told him to set a certain thing up, and then ran it differently without telling Taim.  Taim felt he was being mucked about &amp; sidelined.<br /><br />Of course if Taim is Demandred his anger with Arangar would have another cause.<br /><br />By the way, the effects of binding were clearly not part of a basic AS education in the AOL.  Graendal hasn't got a clue what Demandred is talking about when he raises this with her in connection with the Sh'boan &amp; Sh'botay she has prisoner.  But, by the same token, Demandred clearly does know about binding!!<br /><br />Remember, there were Aes Sedai  &amp; Aes Sedai:  some had a full career in the public service, like LTT or Demandred, &amp; would have been more likely to understand the CJS of the day, some were purely scientists like Lanfear, others were in private business like Moghedien (a banker or stockbroker or something), and some, like Graendal, were something akin to a present day religious.  Personally I find the whole &quot;AS in the AoL&quot; thing a bit confusing &amp; would welcome some text-based elucidation from others.<br />


created: 2002-03-09 07:03:15
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
You got it backwards, Osan'gar was Dashiva.<br /><br />As to the theory I just think he randomly chose some names. As to why he didn't say anything about Asha'man, the whole point of Rand's threat is that if Taim doesn't train them well and keep them disciplined, it will be Taim who pays.<br /><br />Taim isn't Demandred. Flinn was the first person Taim tested, he's been the longest Asha'man. He would have recognised him. If he hadn't recognised him at first, he would have clicked when he started throwing fireballs at him don't you think?


created: 2002-03-09 12:37:32
subject: <b>The Problems Surrounding Taimandred</b>
body:
What are the main thing that support Taimendred?<br /><br />Well, primarly the simple fact that is just makes so much damned sense. We have but one unaccounted-for male Forsaken, and a male channeler who is just a smidgen less in power than Rand (as Demandred was from LTT).  <br /><br />...and that male channeler has no explainable background.  He's exquisitely familiar with the power and it's forms and techniques -- that means he is NOT a male wilder, as just about any male channeler could seem.  Even Logain views his abilities as tricks and such. <br /><br />...he's familiar with the servants of the Dark One.  How many people are?  It took Aes Sedai to know the identities.  Where did Taim learn about it?<br /><br />...people like to cite him working through proxies.  Taim has done that, very much so. <br /><br />...There is monstrous tension between Lews Therin (in Rand's head) and Rand, and 'Taim'.  Why?  Notably, Rand/LTT did NOT feel that tension when he saw Logain in Caemlyn the first time; rather, he seemed impressed and respectful.  Logain is about as powerful as Taim.  Isn't it odd that he doesn't engender the same rage?<br /><br />Problems against:<br /><br />...mostly, they amount to gaps and inconsistencies.  But nowhere do we get definitive POVs that demonstrate it.  I do not mean to give short shrift to those gaps; they have me grudgingly agreeing with the 'Just Say NO to Taimendred' camp.  <br /><br />...but that's pretty much what it amounts to. Gaps and Inconsistencies.<br /><br />People say they don't understand WHY some folks follow the Taimendred thread; the reasons are above.  And I'm getting more and more the feeling that perhaps the confusion is stemming simply from RJ making some mistakes -- that, or trying to stir the pot to make it not so obvious. <br /><br />No other main character has such a sparse background as Taim does.  The absense is notable in itself.


created: 2002-03-09 12:44:01
subject: <b>I just want it on record...</b>
body:
I still beleive in Taimandred!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 13:47:13
subject: <b>so do I</b>
body:
vote for Taim as Demandred, that is.<br />FIANLLY, someone who agreeees with me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 14:51:10
subject: <b>Regarding AoL education</b>
body:
Sarah,<br /><br />I fully admit that it is possible that it is no more than rhetorical flourish, but you can't tell me you don't find it in the least bit odd that Taim just happens to stumble the correct people for living male Forsaken. It is definitely suspect.<br /><br />Actually, Graendal does know what Sammael is talking about concerning binding. What she doesn't know is how Sammael found out about the specific incident with Semirhage.<br /><br />The point is that Sammael, who is in every way Demandred's AoL duplicate, knows everything there is to know about binding, going so far as to give Sevanna a binding rod ter'angreal --- knowing full well what it would do.<br /><br />If Sammael knew, why shouldn't Demandred? (Though admittedly, that point is now moot, since you already conceded that Demandred knew about binding...)<br /><br />As for Aes Sedai education, the Guide states that all AoL Aes Sedai, regardless of their specific professions, had the same basic education and went to special Aes Sedai schools set up all over the world, that taught regular subjects along with the Aes Sedai curriculum.<br /><br />Taimandred lives! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-09 16:55:01
subject: <b>This is a RAFO...</b>
body:
Personally, I'm not one who believes in Taimandred.  I don't disbelieve it, but I won't go either way without more concrete evidence, of which there is just about NONE either way.  For the names, a) it could have been random.  He just picks two names.  If I'd said something like that, I'd be more inclined to just say two names.  They pop into my head faster and it's easier to say two names than to say three.  Again, not hard evidence, but it could happen.  I'd think he would recognise Flinn, but if he was close enough to see the guy's face, he should have seen the Aes Sedai agelessness.  <br />As to Taim's power, it's rare to have so much, so maybe he's Demandred.  But then there seems to have been an outbreak of strong power-wielders in Randland lately (like Egwene &amp; co. Nynaeve, ALIVIA who's freakishly strong, the old grandmother-novice, Narishma, we could go on and on), so it could just be a strong guy.  Myself, no offense but I think it's going a little overboard with these people trying to calculate exactly how far away Flinn was and how much saidin enhances sight, or how good Taim is at combat and if his background betrays his Forsaken-ness.<br /><br />The point is, we've just got to read and find out<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> (wow I'm getting really tired of that phrase) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-09 20:13:12
subject: <b>God, people.... Taim is NOT Demandred!!!!!</b>
body:
Taim is just a jealous jerk,  who may be mad from his long exposure to tainted saidin.... enough of this Taimendred crap!!!!!  Either Logain is going to kill Taim,  or Taim will become the first of a new breed of Forsaken when he pledges to the shadow.... we shall see in like 10 years when the series is complete.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-09 22:03:21
subject: <b>Public Knowledge on Dead Forsaken</b>
body:
Most of the world believes Aginor and Belthamal are still alive!!  The events at the end of the Eye of The World are known to VERY few - the forsaken, those that were there, and those that have been told of the events.  For that matter, where did Taim learn of Be'lal's demise?  Be'lal ruling Tear is not a generally accepted fact (as evidenced by Elaida refusing to admit the Forsaken are loose), and not a piece of information Rand tries to advertise whenever possible (as Rahvin and Sammael were). So to most of the world that are closely following events, the surviving forsaken at the time of LOC are Aginor, Asmodean, Be'lal Belthamal, Demandred, Sammael, and all the women save Lanfear.  Rand was advertising Sammael's presence in Illian, so Sammael would be an obvious choice of who might taunt Rand.  And if you want to go with the theory that Taim is Demandred makes an obvious second choice as to who might do the taunting.  <br /><br />So Demandred as Sammael were not two drawn from three at random, but two from six, with some justification as to why those two were chosen, if you assume Taim is working with only generally available information.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Still seeking enlightenment</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 00:10:10
subject: <b>Stop Playing Games</b>
body:
If it turns out Demandred is Taim and Jordan was just trying to trick us, I'll kill him. After he finishes writing the WoT series.


created: 2002-03-10 05:11:24
subject: <b>Taim=Forsaken?</b>
body:
This may have been a posted theory before... and if it hasn't I might just post it myself... It just is late and I have no reason to stay up and type up a well-worded theory...<br /><br />But couldn&#8217;t it be possible that Taim is just who he seems to be?  Could he be a male channeler, of this age?  I&#8217;m not sure if you remember, but in SR, Joiya, one of the captured BA, talked of a plot to free Taim, and have him claim to be Rand and wreck havoc in his name (SR, p120).  Well, assuming there is some grain of truth in this plan (Taim was freed, probably by BA), ask yourself how would the DO use him, and why would he free him (I assume a grain of truth due to the BA apparent oath against betraying themselves or plans&#8230; perhaps Joiya heard of this plan but thought it just a theory and not an actual plan)?  If Taim were already a DF, everything would work out great, and he would sow chaos... and be high in the councils (due to his strength).  If Taim were just some fool who decided to make a grab for glory, he would have been re-captured, by the BA, for one of two things.  One, to be converted with a circle of 13BA and 13 Myddraal; or two, to be broken by Semirhage, and drained so Demandred can take his place... considering Sammael&#8217;s comment in LoC, that Demandred liked to use proxies (LoC, p135), it seems more likely that Demandred wouldn't become Taim, instead, convert him to the shadow... maybe acting as Demandred hand?<br /><br />...Well that&#8217;s my theory, have at it everyone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-03-10 14:19:24
subject: <b>RJ</b>
body:
Not fooling....perhaps merely making mistakes.  And we who jump at all his shadows read the wrong thing into them.<br /><br />The problem with Taim is Who Is He??? <br /><br />Logain had a nice, hefty build-up.  Taim had absolutely none, and we all know how rare that is.<br /><br />All I said is that the problem with Taimandred, is that it makes sense, when so far nothing else does.  The additional problem is that the contrary opinions rely on inconsistencies -- which simply could be mistakes. The inconsistencies could simply be editing and writing, not plot-driven.


created: 2002-03-10 16:56:58
subject: <b>Ever</b>
body:
since the Demandred theory disintegrated (to my mind at least), I've just assumed that Taim is himself as Logain is, I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.


created: 2002-03-10 17:19:57
subject: <b>Suspicious isn't it</b>
body:
that he mentions the only two male Forsaken that would be known to be alive to the others. Having read the Flinn incident several times today, I would say that Dem is not Taim. At the distance that the incident takes place at, Taim would have recognized Flinn. Maybe Dem is Taim's controller.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 18:48:10
subject: <b>Nothing much to say to this, but...</b>
body:
Taim almost certainly mentions only Sam and Dem for one or more of the following reasons:<br /><br />1. It would be awkward and cumbersome to say three to six names (depending on how many Forsaken a non-DF Taim could know still lived).<br /><br />2. Sammael and Demandred were the most (in)famous male Forsaken in the AOL, and would be the first to come to mind when listing two of them...<br /><br />2a. Especially since Rand talks about attacking Sammael all the time and LTT in one of his rants may have spoken something (using Rand's mouth) about Demandred in Taim's presence.<br /><br />3. The fact that Sammael is free and ruling in Illian is barely a secret at that point in time. No one but Rand knew where Asmodean reappeared.<br /><br />4. Sammael has already attacked Rand a number of times by that point, and that's not really a secret either. Wouldn't he be, to Taim, the most likely to try again?<br /><br />Actually, this theory should be renamed &quot;Why Taim mention Demandred at all?&quot;.  (Other than to emphasize to Rand that Demandred is someone other than himself, which can be evidence for either side of Taimandred.)


created: 2002-03-10 23:37:18
subject: <b>Taim not Demandred</b>
body:
While the Flinn thing is not so clear as to what happens there is another thing against Taimandred.  Why would Demandred once again put himself below LTT.  I mean he hates him with all of this being.  Now while the promose of Nae'blis may be enough it just does not fit.  Now Taim sometimes seems to resent Rand like when he gives him the pins but no were near Demandred hates LTT.  I know if I hated somebody as much as Demandred hated LTT I would not be able to keep a civl tongue no matter how little of a temper I had.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 01:44:34
subject: <b>Taim IS Asmodean</b>
body:
That's right.<br /><br />Forget anyone, even RJ saying Asmo is dead. He is in the Black Tower living the good life.<br /><br />Taim is a Forsaken, but everyone has been looking in the wrong direction.<br /><br />I believe that Moridin (Death) took him &amp; put an illusion of Taim over him with the True Power and breaks through the block Lanfear put over Asmo, after breaking out &amp; killing Taim. So, Moridin(hate spelling names) has a mind trap on Asmo. This says why Taim &amp; Demandred give somewhat conflicting orders and why Taim does not include Asmo.<br /><br />Taim arrives a while after Asmo disappears. We know from Rhuidean that Asmo was rather strong, not stronger than Rand however, just like Rand.<br /><br />Asmo thinks he knows Rand &amp; that he won't kill him as Taim because just as when he was Asmo, Rand needs him. Taim doesn't want the Ashaman to explore different talents cos Asmo himself doesn't know too much.<br /><br />Well there are a few ramblings. I shall look into it and perhaps even try to make up a theory<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Fades, a nutritious breakfast <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster of OZ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-11 09:39:09
subject: <b>Asmodoen? Nah</b>
body:
&quot;2. Sammael and Demandred were the most (in)famous male Forsaken in the AOL, and would be the first to come to mind when listing two of them...&quot;<br /><br />Well they were famous, but definitely less so than Ishamael.<br /><br />As for that Asmodean is Taim theory, no way. Firstly RJ has said in an interview that he didn't use death took him as meaning Moridin took him (cos man that'd be lame). Secondly as far as any Forsaken other than Lanfear knows (and Lanfear is with the Finns at the time of Asmodeon's death, so Moridin couldn't have got it out of her), Asmodeon is a traitor. I mean, even now that Moridin KNOWS that Asmodeon was forced into it by Lanfear and Rand, he hasn't been brought back. He should have died rather than train Rand. Of course, if he was as useful as Lanfear, perhaps he would have been given another chance.<br /><br />Besides, other than in strength in the One Power I fail to see similarities between the two of them.


created: 2002-03-11 10:45:01
subject: <b>Rand is Demandred's charge</b>
body:
The idea that Demandred couldn't possibly be Taim because of his personal hatred for LTT/Rand was debunked in WH. Demandred actually expresses admiration for LTT's &quot;brillance&quot; as a planner. There is no vitrol hatred on the part of Demandred, only a desire to see LTT/Rand dead.<br /><br />Don't forget that Rand was singled out by Aran'gar as Demandred's charge, that implies Demandred is impersonating someone close to Rand, Taim or not.<br /><br />Many have argued that a Demandred proxy could perform the task just as well as Demandred himself. But the word &quot;charge&quot; is always used in the context of custody and guardianship and never in the context of simply spying on someone.<br /><br />Egwene is identified as Aran'gar's charge, Rand is Osna'gar's charge, and Tuon is Semirhage's charge. All are close to their charges.


created: 2002-03-11 12:38:27
subject: <b>...no...hatred?</b>
body:
&quot;There is no vitrol hatred on the part of Demandred, only a desire to see LTT/Rand dead.&quot;<br /><br />Are you KIDDING me? No vitriol hatred? Have you been reading the series? Your description is more like that of Sammael (though even he wanted more than lTT to die, he really did hate him), yet even his hatred paled next to that of Demandred's!<br /><br />Oh and Rand wasn't only Demandred's charge, he was also Osan'gar don't foget which opens up all sorts of people as it means it doesn't have to be anyone who's regularly around Rand as that was Dashiva's job.<br /><br />Oh and another thing against the Asmodeon theory, do you really think that Asmodeon, even if he was brought back to life, would immediately be sent off to Rand again after what happened last time?


created: 2002-03-11 12:51:58
subject: <b>Hatred</b>
body:
That's the way others describe Demandred's feelings toward LTT/Rand. WH finally gave us Demandred's views of those feelings, and they weren't as vitrol as they were cracked up to be.


created: 2002-03-11 14:50:35
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
description of &quot;fervently&quot; wanting to kill Rand before any other Forsaken got a chance to sounds pretty vitriol (with the second i...unless I've been spelling it wrong for all these years) to me.


created: 2002-03-11 15:02:08
subject: <b>In the immortal words of Richard Kind....</b>
body:
... in the Carol Burnette show. LIGHTEN UP LADY. (and GENTLEMAN).<br /><br />You lot take WOT too seriously. The Tasmodean theory is supposed to be a joke, not reality. I bet GreySlayer is laughing hysterically at us.<br /><br />Taim != Dem != Sam != Asmo != Taim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 16:25:40
subject: <b>Back to the original theory</b>
body:
Aside from the Taimandred debate (which hopefully will be put to bed in the new book-Oh please RJ leave no doubt this time)-Sammael and Demandred are the two forsaken most likely to 'taunt' Rand.  Whatever Taim knows about Asmodean he probably realises that he is unlikely to taunt Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 19:30:57
subject: <b>Taim is Demandred's Henchman</b>
body:
I do not believe Taim is any of the Forsaken (Demandred, Sammael, or, God help us, Asmodean).  For all those who wonder why Taim speaks to Rand about info only Demandred would know, it is easily believable that Taim would talk thusly if he were working FOR Demandred.<br /><br />Demandred has clearly had an agenda of patience, whatever his dispotion back in the Age of Legends.  It seems infinitely more likely that he would instruct Taim to observe and guide Rand as needed.  Also, with Logain becoming a ranking officer in the Black Tower, there will inevitably be a squaring off there, a heated exchange between those in Logain/Rand's camp and those in Taim's, creating the new version of the Companions/Dreadlords.  It seems much more likely that Taim is an evil version of Logain.  After all, both were powerful false dragons who were hounded and betrayed by the Red Ajah.<br /><br />There is also an almost sick and demented kind of hazing going on.  Demandred lets his chief lieutenant, Taim, become second-chair drummer to the Dragon Reborn.  Demandred would likely not put himself in such a situation, but might see some grim humor in making Taim go through the same circumstances he did back in the Age of Legends with LTT.<br /><br />So, if we say Taim is Demandred's henchman, then he has the benefits of what Demandred knows (at least that info which the Forsaken decides to share with him), and yet Demandred himself would still fail to recognize Flinn during the clensing of saidin.  Fair enough?<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-11 20:55:14
subject: <b>Ha ha ha (histerically, not insanely)</b>
body:
Thank you TheUltimateReality!!!<br /><br />Come on. RJ has already said Asmo was gone &amp; Moridin himself said something defamatory about Asmo &amp; him deserving death. <br /><br />I was just getting sick &amp; tired of the Taimendred debate. I thought I would through a three-headed-monkey wrench into the works.<br /><br />Well, that was an hours amusement.<br /><br />I suppose I will have to do some work now.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Silliness in Theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Belcher of Flame <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Bane of SH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-12 10:37:08
subject: <b>Remember it's a book</b>
body:
The reason RJ didn't include Asmodean in Taim's list is because RJ knows As is dead and thus most likely when quickly coming up with a couple of male Forsaken he just subconsciously chose two characters who were still alive<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 13:26:06
subject: <b>Lanfear / Asan'gar</b>
body:
Why does Taim know about Asmodean?  Well, he sure didn't have to mention his name in this conversation, but anyway if he is working with one or some of the Chosen, he could have been told enough to know or at least guess about Asmodean's fate.  He could have been threatened with Asmodean's fate if he blundered, he could have been warned that Asmodean taught Rand and told not to worry about a reappearance of Asmodean, his Boss could have boast about being a better teacher to him than Asmodean was for Rand etc.   <br /><br /><br />&quot;Don't forget that Rand was singled out by Aran'gar as Demandred's charge, that implies Demandred is impersonating someone close to Rand, Taim or not.&quot;<br /><br />Asan'gar thinks of Egwene as her own &quot;charge&quot; but she doesn't use the wording &quot;charge&quot; for the others. She comments that Osan'gar was ordered to watch Rand and almost as a second thought she adds &quot;and Demandred too&quot;.  This is more an indication that Osan'gar is the Chosen watching Rand and that she adds Demandred too because he also has proxies of some kind near Rand, IMO.  It seems to indicate that Osan'gar is there to watch Rand while Demandred's interest is to control the Black Tower through Taim because he plans to use it somehow (I think he is planning to take control of the Westlands by throwing the Asha'man and what remains of the Aes Sedai after the battle of the Tower against one another, and while they are busy Semirhage will start the real Seanchan invasion from the South. I think they further plan to use the renegade Asha'man and the BA as Dreadlords after the Seanchan conquest has succeeded. The BA will be the sul'dams or they will be used to turn the Seanchan sul'dams to the Shadow. Semirhage controls Tuon to orchestrate this takeover. It would also make sense that the Blight has been quiet for so long because Demandred is building the shadowspawn armies for a major assault from the North while Semirhage comes from the South. If it succeeds it hands everything to the Chosen, if they blunder somewhere they might provide the necessary impulse for Rand to unite all the channelers, kill Mesaana and Semirhage and then face Demandred's armies. That's the risk in their plan. I guess Moridin condones this plan since the beginning, but also intends to turn the Dragon to the Shadow as well before reinfiltrating him in what remains of the Light's ranks until TG, or if necessary, to kill him.).  <br /><br />In the same chapter, Demandred doesn't sound at all like he's sharing the blame for the &quot;idiots&quot; who missed the attack on Rand in Cairhien, he seems to blame Osan'gar for the Asha'man's failure.<br /><br />This chapter is very revealing about Demandred.  He remembers that since the beginning he is working with Mesaana and Semirhage to undermine opponents, topple them, killing the necessary people *or worse*.  What is this &quot;worse&quot; if not turning a channeler against his/her will to the shadow??  I take this as a clue that Demandred and at least Mesanna if not Semirhage arranged for the capture of Mazrim Taim and turned him to the shadow. When Rand announced his amnesty, they decided to send him to Rand.<br /><br />I doubt that Mesaana would leave the complete control of Taim to Demandred.  I think they share his services. In a few occasions, Taim's actions with Rand or at the BT completed the BA's orders in the Tower. Maybe she is simply collaborating with Demandred, or maybe she has a direct hand too.  <br /><br /><br />-----------------------<br /><br />Lanfear's strenght : she was believed to be second after Ishamael, just a bit under LTT but she would compensate that by her greater knowledge.  <br /><br />As someone noted, no one seems to know her real strength.  The male Chosen have no way to know and the women would never be stupid enough to tell any of the male Chosen about the real strenght of any of the others.  The fact the men don't know how strong they are when linked and if they are linked is the main tactical advantage of the female Chosen against them. I don't think think they trust each other enough to spoil that advantage. Of course I guess the women also try to hide their real strength if possible, and also to hide their most powerful an'greal from one another as I guess they have a fairly good idea of each other's raw strength after all these years.


created: 2002-03-12 20:39:17
subject: <b>Do Forsaken know how to Link?</b>
body:
real question;<br /><br />I thought I recall one of them...Moridin?  being shocked by the linking.  But...I'm not sure if 13 Aes Sedai (in this case, Black) would need to link to do it.<br /><br />Of course, it makes quite a bit of sense that anyone who directs Black Ajah AS would know about linking.<br /><br />But I'm still recalling the surprise.<br /><br />Let's face it, the Forsaken aren't omnipotent.  They keep sneering about the 'half-trained girls', but there are constantly surprises. <br /><br />For instance, yes, Nynavae is the strongest AS (though not the strongest non-Forsaken female channeler...), and she matched the weakest; Moghedien.  If she had a warder around at the time (Lan), Moghedien would've been headless, as she would've had no strength to spare to deal with him.<br /><br />The Forsaken's bludgeoning use of Compulsion blinds them to other, subtler, more beneficial uses (such as Warder Bonding), which actually strengthens the willing recipient.<br /><br />RJ would be quite smart to show this with one of them. Like, Mesaana cops an attitude (with a few Myyrdhal to help), and gets smacked around by 3 normal Aes Sedai while their warders handle the Fades (or Gray Men).  Of course, being IN the Tower, Mesaana would know about linking, but still....<br /><br />Moiraine was no match for Aginor, but toasted Batha'mal (sp) when she surprised him.  Two AS almost certainly wouldn't be enough to mess with most Forsaken (consider how readily Rand handled Verin and Alanna).  But 3...now it's getting dangerous.  4 Definitely is.  And don't discount the Warders.


created: 2002-03-13 07:02:16
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
you mean Moiraine toasted Be'lal.<br /><br />The Forsaken did know about linking, though I believe they call it forming a circle. Don't forget how most of the wonders of the AoL came about due to men and women working together through links. The shock you may be thinking of from Moridin is likely when he saw Aviendha pull her weave apart.<br /><br />As for the amount of Aes Sedai a Forsaken could take on...well we got some strong hints at that at the end of Winter's Heart. Unfortunately there was often an Asha'man involved too, which makes it difficult to judge Aes Sedai's strength. However, if you look at how much stronger Rand was than Egwene and Elayne, you can get an idea. Don't forget that both these two are probably 3 times stronger than the average strength Aes Sedai (not the average strength female channeler of course) yet he had no problem shielding them, lifting them and doing all those other things at once. While LTT tells Rand that he can handle 3 Aes Sedai, I think he means the average strength Aes Sedai from the AoL which would have been a lot stronger than now. I think Rand could easily take on 6 Aes Sedai alone, which means some of the Forsaken should be able to as well.


created: 2002-03-13 14:54:22
subject: <b>Linking</b>
body:
The Chosen know about linking and I think at least Rahvin called it &quot;linking&quot;.  In the scene where Graendal, Lanfear, Sammael and Rahvin meet to discuss their plan regarding Rand, Rahvin is sure that Lanfear and Graendal are linked and ready to strike.  He worries that Sammael might do something stupid and that the women would kill both of them. <br /><br />I think later in the same novel, they also call it &quot;linking&quot; when they discuss awaiting Rand in Illian and using Sammael as bait. <br /><br />The Chosen were not surprised about linking because they don't know about it, I think Moridin in Ebou Dar was pondering whether the Aes Sedai knew enough about linking to use the weather control device properly. If I remember correctly, he was thinking that they wouldn't know how to bring males in to make a really huge circle and thus couldn't affect the weather much with the Bowl anyway. (if so, he was wrong to think that. Some Aes Sedai have researched and found how to bring men in circles).  He also thought in that scene that the Aes Sedai were in some ways so primitive but sometimes also came up with new things unknown in the AOL that stunned him, for instance the warder bond.  And I think he was very afraid of what Aviendha did to her gateway.  I don't remember if it was because he didn't know it was possible to do it safely at all or if he was just scared that Aviendha diddn't know what she was doing and would cause a disaster.


created: 2002-03-13 16:22:11
subject: <b>Sigh... Elder Haman has it right</b>
body:
Rand has been telling everyone about who Sammuel is it is only natural that Taim.  It is quite likely he has been rambling about Demandred as well.  It would only be natural for Taim to reflect that in his comments.  Taim after all has shown himself to be rather astute and having good sources of information.  (This may or may not be evidence for being Demandred.)<br /><br />Coming back to Taimendred, sigh..., those who favor Taimendred have a tendency of sighting the quote from Greandal that it was Demandred's and Osangars responsibility to watch over him forget an equally important quote from Graendal.  Graendal says that Demandred was hoping to &quot;stumble&quot; into Rand.  Taim, even with Rand's orders to stay away doesn't need to &quot;stumble&quot; into Rand.  That statement from Graendal strongly suggests Demandred is <b>nowhere near</b> Rand.  In addition, in the same chapter Demandred is standing when the other's are sitting and his own thoughts are about having to wait for pigeons (and who knows what else animal).  He is obviously giving the rest of the Forsaken his reports from his spies that Rand was seen in a number of towns.  In other words, Demandred's responsibility to &quot;keep an eye on&quot; Rand (nowhere if memory serves correct is the term &quot;charge&quot; used) is served by a network of eyes and ears that Demandred uses in all the various cities he mentions.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 18:25:34
subject: <b>Good point Rabid</b>
body:
We can't debunk the Taimandred theory, but I will give some evidence against.<br /><br />Demazrim supporters often invoke the Sammael quote about Demmy and his proxies to the south (of Arad Doman).  But that quote really doesn't mean that much.  It just means that Sammael knows (or thinks he knows) that Demmy is using a proxy.  <br /><br />In Sammael's next encounter with Graendal however, he tells her that he thinks he knows what Demmy is up to, but not who Demmy is.  <br /><br />I have always thought that Sammy was talking about the Ashaman when he mentioned the quote about proxies.  Sammy clearly was afraid of Demmy's lackeys, and he even gave an indirect warning to Demmy to keep them away from him.  Sammy has much more reason to be afraid of male channelers than of any other group, and this is why I think Sammy issues the warning.  He also specifically uses the word 'friends' in italics.  Although we can't rule out the Dragonsworn or white cloaks, I think the clues in this quote strongly point to the Ashaman.<br /><br />However, if Sammy was talking about the Ashaman in his proxy quote, then it means that Demmy is not Taim.  This is because Sammy said he thought he knew what Demmy was up to, but not who Demmy was.  <br />Taim is just not the best job for Demmy, because it would too much of his time.  If demmy could just as easily use a proxy for the job, then there is no reason for demmy to be taim.  And we know it wouldn't be hard for demmy to use a proxy, because demmy knows AoL secrets of compulsion and he is also in league with the best at the business, Semirhage.  Graendal could also effectively compulse Taim to do her bidding, and Demmy is on relatively close terms with her. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 23:35:31
subject: <b>Charge it!</b>
body:
Actually, the quote is from Aran'gar, not Graendal.<br /><br />And it goes something like this. Aran'gar says to Osan'gar, &quot;You were supposed to watch him, Osan'gar. You and Demandred. My own charge...&quot;<br /><br />When Aran'gar says, &quot;my own&quot; charge, it clearly gives &quot;charge&quot; status to Rand. And since Osan'gar and Demandred are both mentioned by Aran'gar, it is safe to assume that they were the ones given Rand's &quot;chargeship.&quot;


created: 2002-03-14 07:03:48
subject: <b>I agree completely with sulpicia</b>
body:
And on the Taimandred debate, don't you find it rather weak to say that Taim is Demandred based on Taim leaving out the name of a Forsaken, compared to the alleged weaknesses in the Flinn debate?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2522.gif" /> Excalibur <img src="images/personalsmilies/2522.gif" /><br />Aviendha's Englishman<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 01:00:29
subject: <b>quote, in full this time</b>
body:
&quot;These barbarous rustics offered to many surprises. A way to heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai.&quot; Spoken by Moridin on page 82 in the hardcover eedition of tPoD right after he sees Avi unweave a gateway. I didn't know what the unvoluntary rings were at first, but then I figured they must be a'dam. The forsaken didn't know about involunatary links, not links in general.


created: 2002-04-01 18:34:33
subject: <b>Taim=dreadlord</b>
body:
As For Me There is too much evedince against TAIM being a hidden Forsaken. <br /><br />My theorie DREADLORD


created: 2002-05-10 05:12:40
subject: <b>Taim=Moridin</b>
body:
I've put this up elsewhere, and tried to get it posted as a theory, but didn't ( and still don't ) have any concrete evidence.  However, I don't think Taim used those 2 names by accident, and i think it even more unlikely that it was just a literary thing.  If RJ tells us to RAFO, then i'm hoping that he'd be more careful with exactly what he has his characters giving away in what they think or say.  He does give things away in his POV bits, so i guess if we haven't been given a POV section on a particular character, then we can only speculate on what's going on with such a character.  There are too many that fall into this category.  <br />Now, i know that title will offend lots of people, but i still think the evidence points to Taim being one of the chosen, and if he's not D, then he's got to be Moridin.  Now, people will say that M doesn't appear until well after Bk6, but that doesn't mean he wasn't active before we got to see him.  In fact, IMO, the DO would most probably have brought Ishy back when he brought the gars back, and not let them know about it.  I wondered about this before WH proved, to me, that Taim wasn't Demandred.  He just didn't act right.  I wondered if he wasn't actually Ishy even before Bk 7 showed us that Ishy was back.  I know there's debate about that, too, but there seems to be debate about nearly everything.  RJ seems to deliberately create ambiguity so people like all of us with too much spare time will spend so much time arguing about it all.  I can't PROVE my theory, it's just a feeling i have.  Taim knows too much, he's too arrogant, yet he doesn't seem mad at all, and neither does MOridin, unlike Ishy.  Mad angry, yes; mad crazy, no.  His power level also suggests to me its Moridin.  lots of things suggest that he's a forsaken, he knows way too much about saidin to be a wilder, yet there's nothing definite anywhere to say yes or no.  If he is one of the chosen, and he's not Demandred, then he's Moridin.  he's certainly NOT Asmodean.  To me, he seems more like Moridin than any other character we have to chose from.  No proof, just opinions.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 16:52:29
subject: <b>meh</b>
body:
i dont think it matters what Taim is, Logains gonna kick his ass! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;wash the spears- who fears to die?&quot;<br />&quot;wash the spears- no one I know&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br />the Aiel are coming...


created: 2002-12-16 05:12:33
subject: <b>asmodean? not a threat...</b>
body:
I believe that Taim doesn't mention Asmodean because Rand never talks about Asmodean as a real threat...not like he rants and raves about Sammael and Demandred, anyway.  So Taim wouldn't believe that Asmodean would channel.  Besides, if he has intimate knowledge of the forsaken from other forsaken, he would also know that Asmodean is weak and a coward. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-03 05:11:55
subject: <b>Why not Asmodean</b>
body:
Why didn't Taim include Asmodean as a possible attacker?<br />Probably because he knew Asmodean was nothing special.<br />Because of the stories left over from the AoL. <br /><br />In the Two Rivers, and in other places I am sure, there were lots of stories about Semirhage killing little boys who stayed out too late at night, about Demandred killing children who didn't respect their elders, etc.<br /><br />Somehow I don't think the stories of Asmodean, the lace-wearing, music-writing surrender expert, scared the children of Saldaea very much, or at all.<br /><br />That's if Taim had ever heard of Asmodean at all. Be'lal was irked when Rand didn't recognize his name, and he was just as lame as Asmodean. How could Taim mention any Forsaken of whom he'd never learned, and why would he name a weak foe before strong ones like Sammael?


created: 2004-06-05 09:35:52
subject: <b>taim</b>
body:
we all know that Tain CANT be demandred now for a fact. during the attack on rand at the end of winters heart demandred attacks flinn and is surprised to find that the old man could channel. taim trained flinn and so knows very well that he can channel.<br /><br />i know this is likely to be a very unpopular theory but we all know jordan likes a good twist. could the reson that Taim knows that asmodean is dead be because asmodean is in fact taim? taim is def a dark friend at the least but he has knowledge and the strength of one of the forsaken (dont know if anyone els picked up on this but when rand first took taim to the farm rand told him something along the lines of &quot;this is a gateway i can show you again if you didnt catch it&quot; that is all he says on the matter but later that same chapter taim says to him &quot;you can Travel but you cant test for the ability&quot; how did he know it was called Traveling?<br /><br />many people say that asmo would not be reborn because he was a traitor but so was Lanfear &quot;we could suplant the Great Lord&quot; and she was reborn. maybe asmo was given a &quot;Last Chance&quot; too and secretly had Ossy (dashiva) put with him to keep and eye on him to make sure he didnt turn again. if taim knew who dashiva was he would not have been to angry at the fact that he had joined in the attack on rand in the sun palace.<br /><br />


created: 2004-09-05 03:43:25
subject: <b>*sigh* not Taim</b>
body:
I am convinced now that Taim is not Demandred, and I believe the &quot;Sammael and Demandred&quot; example is simply picking the two most notorious and threatening male forsaken to be dramatic.<br /><br />It's even possible Taim is not a darkfriend, although I'm not sure on this point. I can see Taim as being just a jealous, power hungry, greedy man (i.e. the high lords of Tear) that wants to be the Dragon. He certainly talked alot about earning glory in the first meeting with Rand in Caemlyn. He was excited about the proposition of joining Rand in fighting the Forsaken (i.e. sammael) and gaining glory. He is at first depressed that Rand is sticking him at a farm with training recruits, but quickly adjusts his attitude, and has now built the formidable Black Tower, hundreds of male channeling weapons loyal to him, the M'hael. I think that it is feasible that this is simple ambition--somehow it seems too obvious to have Taim be a darkfriend or Forsaken. <br /><br />That said, it is interesting to note the original black ajah plot to free Taim and use him to oppose Rand, and the mysterious escape of Taim from the Aes Sedai who are imprisoning him. We never get a real explanation of what happens...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-05-23 19:03:37
subject: <b>taim's strength in the power</b>
body:
Im a bit concerned - I accept taim IS NOT demandred - however why would Osangar/Agnior play second fiddle to him? And surely taim cant be ssttronger than Agnior? Im confused - If taim is stronger than agnior it puts him almost neck and neck with sammeal and demandred - infact at that level of strength taim is a threat to all the male forsaken and rand.


created: 2002-03-10 17:15:50
subject: <b>Sounds solidish</b>
body:
This does explain the incident fairly well, although the daylight bit doesn't ring true. Remember Aginor tested 100 Fades to destruction to try find out how they could enter a shadow and be in another shadow anywhere else instantly. I've always believed Fades could do that.<br /><br />Remember, Carridin may be a Darkfriend, but he's also a Whitecloak, and being given orders by a Fade would be more effective than another human because of the instinctive fear of Shadowspawn over humans. And Carridin may have always dealt with Fades.<br /><br />The scene has always bothered me with the way the Fade talks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 17:38:44
subject: <b>Almost everything can be explained by Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
but just about every line of your theory, I think the events are explained by Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />Near the end, however, you make a good point.  The point about the fade's cloak 'hardly moving' is very interesting.  This may very well mean that we are looking at a forsaken and not an actual fade.<br /><br />However, If a Forsaken used the mask of mirrors to create an image of a fade, would the mask of mirrors cloak move either??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 17:59:26
subject: <b>One thing i get from Bors/Carridin is...</b>
body:
that he is always disrespected by other darkfreinds. I mean, look at how he finally died, that was a pretty humiliating way to go for a high ranking darkfriend, not to mention a high ranking child of the light.<br /><br />I don't think that the fade was Demandred, but it makes sense that Ishameal would pull this off as a way of further belittling him. And he would have chosen a Fade's form because of the intimidation factor (gholams aren't known outside the circle of main characters and the forsaken); &quot;the look of the eyelessis fear.&quot; Ishameal is known to revel in his intimidation of others: appearing as baalzamon(sp?), openly displaying his saah(sp?), etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 18:44:29
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I like the theory but can a voice be disguised by a mask of mirrors. I noticed on page 287 of WH when Rand is pretending to be Nuli when he and Min encounter Mistress Harfor it states:<br /> <br />&quot;Yes, Mistress,&quot; he muttered gruffly. The First Maid might recognize his real voice.<br /><br />And again on 288<br />       &quot;Pardon, Mistress,&quot; he said in the coarse voice he had adopted for Nuli.<br /><br />Maybe he is using the power to manipulate his voice but it seems doubtful the way it is worded. I think it would be quite hard to impersonate a Shade's rasping voice unless the power is in use. And we have seen sound manipulated with the power (making voices heard over distance) but it is all speculation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. The forsaken have often shown there uncanny ability to do things previously unkown, in this age at least.


created: 2002-03-10 19:52:47
subject: <b>&quot;hardly&quot; moving cloak</b>
body:
&quot;Dead black clothes and cloak, hardly seeming to stir as it moved...&quot;<br />If the fade moved, his clothes would have to move somewhat. As to your theory, all your evidence seems to point more to SH than to Ishamael.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 20:03:26
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
I still am more inclined to believe that it's SH rather than a Forsaken.  SH has always seemed rather over confident, and I think that a Fade would be a strange disguise.  However, you make some good points... I guess RAFO. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 21:45:01
subject: <b>good idea</b>
body:
but a few things, the cloak moving isnt much of an arguement, fades clothes arnt moved by the wind, but it neve says that they dont move, how could they fight with a sword if the cloak arms didnt move when they did <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />i think its a good theory well though, but one more thing, y didnt ishy just come as baalzamon, that would be more intimidating then a mere fade, <br /><br />but i dont think it was SH because of the theory, however i think SH has been around for a while<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 04:04:28
subject: <b>You're On The Right Track</b>
body:
You have collected some impressive evidence, and I believe your theory to be true.  I had never even considered the Myrdraal's humorous reply, &quot;If you wish to see it so&quot;, could be a comment on Carridin's level of commitment to the DO.  I've always seen it as you seem to, that the Fade is admitting his own lack of servitude.  <br /><br />Since the Fade is clearly not Shaidar Haran (&quot;It was a man in form, no larger than most, but there the resemblence ended.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, I tend to agree that one of the Forsaken has opted to take the form of a Halfman for secrecy, security or other reasons.<br /><br />Who it is is still somewhat up in the air.  It certainly could be Ishmael, for the reasons you gave and more, or it could be Be'lal, though such a tactic as this doesn't strike me as his style.  <br /><br />If it's either of those two, it seems a bit of a mute point to discuss now as Be'lal and Ishmael (in the form we knew him at the time) were both destroyed later in the book.  Most of the other Forsaken still alive at this point in the series were engaged in other tasks.  <br /><br />Dressing up as a Fade is right up Moghedien's alley, though, and she does operate in Tanchico, where Carridin later sets up shop.  Liandrin could be another connection there.  It is also well proven that Moghedien is a free agent among the Forsaken who bows to the DO only when she is forced to do so.  Additionally, the Spider is the kinda gal who would conceal her identity, even to a mortal.  We have seen her on many ocassions using either Compulsion, changing her appearance or both as tactics to ensure secrecy.<br /><br />If I had to guess, I would say it is more likely that the Myrdraal is one of our first glimpses of Moghedien, given the time-frame of the book, but Ishamel is a strong runner-up.<br /><br />Nonetheless, your theory took me completely by surprise, and I thank you.  That's rare anymore.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-11 09:50:29
subject: <b>Timing is important</b>
body:
From the original appearance of SH, I believed he was one of the killed Forsaken, probably Ishy. I thought probably that this &quot;body&quot; was a small punishment to Ishy for getting above himself. The DO likes to take each and every one of his loyal servants down a peg or two whenever he has a chance. It just so happens that this manifestation suits Ishy. It also seemed from the start that SH had already been secretly selected as Naeblis from the way he was able to order all other Forsaken about.<br />It also seems that SH is able to channel True Power. (No eyes, no saa.) Ish is able to take up whichever persona as fits his need.<br />Is this a disguise or is it a true other body?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 10:25:53
subject: <b>but all that you have mentioned fits</b>
body:
for SH as well, does it not?<br />at least, if SH is the DO taking physical shape, as is my theory...<br />oh, well, that is just me<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 10:39:03
subject: <b>IT WAS FAIN'S FADE</b>
body:
Was I the only one that took that for granted?  We know that Fain/Mordeth had been using Fades as well as Trollocs as early as TGH, and as his power became greater, his control over them increases.  <br /><br />The &quot;if you want to say we're both serving the Great Lord I'm not going to correct you&quot; interplay betrays that the Myrddraal is working for Fain/Mordeth.  It also is in keeping with the fact that Fain and the Whitecloaks always seem to be working in tandem - they were both present at the fighting in the Two Rivers in TSR, they were both at Falme, and it would explain why there are orders outstanding to kill Rand.  Fain wants him dead, and until recently the Dark One has wanted him alive.  Even Ishamael didn't want him dead.<br /><br />That's my story and I'm sticking to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 12:37:34
subject: <b>Ni-ice!</b>
body:
Liked that! Now that is a good, and interesting possibility.<br /><br />Was there an interview coming, I mean, weren't we asked for questions to ask RJ? This might be one - if the Q is carefully worded!<br /><br />&quot;Was the Fade meeting Carridin in tDR a just normal Fade?&quot; or something along those lines could be it.  If the answer is RAFO it could tell of a thought to explore, while a straight  &quot;Yes&quot; would solve the question. (Always look for a way to form a question that even a RAFO can tell you something, apart from &quot;Go and by the next book too!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />I would go for Ishy, Moggy or Fain's Fade, they are all valid possibilities IMO. For some reason I don't buy the idea of it being Shaidar Haran, I believe it/he can't leave the Shayol Gul neighborhood. Might be wrong, but that's my guess. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 15:01:48
subject: <b>Gah</b>
body:
If the Fade said &quot;Serve me&quot; I think its SH.<br />As you all know SH means Hand of the drak or something = (maybe) The Dark One. Ah... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-11 15:54:47
subject: <b>Ishamael is normal height, Moridin is tall.</b>
body:
Now, I did read a theory here somewhere that SH is Moridin disguised in the MoM &amp; using this disguise to confuse the other F.<br /><br />That theory could tie to this one quite  well in explaining why Bors's fade is normal height.  Ishamael made it the same size as himself  &amp; then later as Moridin made it match his new height  (6'5&quot; or thereabout).<br /><br />This doesn't mean I believe either theory though.


created: 2002-03-11 18:49:13
subject: <b>His height doesn't matter</b>
body:
This was also a matter of contention in the 'Everlasting Fade' theory.  But don't be so quick to discount SH, just because he wasn't tall enough.<br /> <br />I personally think SH grew as the seals became weaker, and as the DO became stronger.  This, in a nutshell, could explain the whole Everlasting theory, as well as SH being the Fade talking to Carridin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 21:43:21
subject: <b>matrimony cauthon's right</b>
body:
<b>-- I don't remember where, but at one point Mat (I think) commented on how inaccurate it was to say that Halfmen disappeared if they turned sideways. This Myrddraal disappeared from a room that had the door closed, and he disappeared in an instant. The Myrddraal in Baerlon ran and faded; he didn't just disappear. The only other people we know can just disappear are channelers and Gholam. I think that RJ put the &quot;legend&quot; part in there to show Carridin's attempt at rationalizing the situation, and can be taken ironically if in fact it was Ishamael. As Cadsuane once stated, &quot;Sometimes it pays to be a legend.&quot; People tend to overlook possible explanations if they think they are dealing with a legend.</b><br /><br />Now while I don't have my books with me, I'm sure that in one of the times that SH pov is taken, it describes his moving throught the shadows kinda like the way TP travelling in Moridin's pov is described.  Only without the &quot;black flecks&quot; and the &quot;world screaming&quot;(those I can remember are said in the books, so don't say I lied earlier on).  This, I think, can prove that it was SH given that with nearly every point you made, you said that it <i>could</i> have been SH but you didn't think it was.<br /><br />It was a good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 03:09:19
subject: <b>isn't it moghedien?</b>
body:
we know that liandrin made contact with carridin and liandrin is moggy's pet. how did liandrin knew carridin if it wasn't for moggy?<br /><br />just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 11:05:50
subject: <b>What do we know about SH</b>
body:
Seems to me all your evidence for it not being SH is the height factor. Since we know so little about SH might he not have the power to change his appearance to a degree?<br /><br />Why would he bother to be smaller?<br />Couple of points here<br />1) His in a room, might be more convinient<br />2) Doesn't need to be any larger to intimidate a normal human, but does need to be larger in order to intimidate Forsaken i.e. he might normally be the ordinary size and his meetings with the Forsaken are in fact the exception<br />3) Possibly doesn't want to reveal the fact that he is special to Carridin (Who as a CoL would likely know fades are man-height normally)<br />4) Possibly Jordan had decided by this stage the DO would have a special Fade messenger but not that he would be special in anyway, the height is a later development<br /><br />I know that's all a bit weak, but I thought I'd throw it into the pot anyway- Can't come up with anything stronger untill I reread the books<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 11:07:50
subject: <b>clarification</b>
body:
I discounted SH because of the height issue, where this fade was described as regular height.  Everything else could be SH, yes.  However, every time SH is described his height is touched upon, so this probably was not SH.<br />Also, this is not something that I believe to be true, it just works out as a theory.


created: 2002-03-12 11:28:36
subject: <b>As for Fain's Fade</b>
body:
Fain was traveling by himself when he went to Falme, remember?  Hurin said that he was alone, that he couldn't smell any other DF or trollocs.  Fain no longer had a Fade to boss around, or trollocs.  So...I don't think it is possible that Fain picked up another one, and he didn't travel with this one, so it isn't Fain's Fade.


created: 2002-03-13 03:58:37
subject: <b>Thank you, Jahar!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Thanx, Jahar Narishma!<br /><br />As I said earlier on this theory (everyone wants to write, no one wants to read!), the Myrdraal talking to Carridin is described as &quot;no taller than most.&quot;  I believe that was SPECIFICALLY put in the Fade's description to later discount it as SH.  Shaidar Haran has appeared as the same immese Fade every time, and we've been given no indicators that he/it has appeared in disguise as another character.<br /><br />It's either JUST a plain ol' Fade, or it's a Forsaken in disguise.<br /><br />Moghedien is the clear choice in that case.  Here's why:<br /><br />-She's the Spider, who hides in the shadows <br /><br />-She uses the One Power to conceal her true appearance in most scenes<br /><br />-Uses Compulsion to make people forget her comings and goings<br /><br />-Is based in Tanchico, where Carridin later arrives <br /><br />-She uses Liandrin to communicate with him.  <br /><br />-She has made it abundantly clear she only directly obeys the DO when she's caught between Shayol Ghul and a hard place, and runs her own show the rest of the time  <br /><br />-Mog's just creepy and sadistic enough to sport the Fade look.  I sure as heck would pay VERY close attention if a Fade came and gave me instructions.<br /><br />I could buy Ishmael dressed up as a Fade--possibly--but all the clues (the Fade smiles and acts decidedly UN-Fadish, too short for SH) lead to the Spider.<br /><br />Jahar Narishma, you're on the right track. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-13 13:57:10
subject: <b>Size, afterall, is always an issue.</b>
body:
I've always thought that the Fade in this scene was peculiar.  Who that fade was, or who sent it?  I don't have firm grasp on that yet, but I think the issue of &quot;Size&quot; is important here.  For this reason, I don't think the Fade was the Spider using MoM because of the details of the prolonged and violent physical contact between between the two.  Moggy is much shorter than Carridin, so it would be pretty much impossible to disguise that size difference with the MoM once the Fade grabs Carridin and lifts him off his feet.  Now, I'm not arguing that the power wasn't used to pick him up and then toss him against the wall, but the Fade never lost its grip on Carridin's neck until the toss.  Moggy just isn't tall enough to do that.  If the fade is someone using MoM, the person would have to be tall enough to at least perform the physical act of gripping Carridin's neck while he's dangling above the floor.<br /><br />Now, as a side thought and because I love playing Devil's Advocate, even with my own thoughts....<br />The idea that great size differences are almost impossible to hide with MoM is an idea that Jordan has had many different characters repeat, and rather frequently, especially if any contact is involved, that I don't doubt RJ has a least on of his characters doing just that, and frequently.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Alric seVinta<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">OCWIATJ Forever<br /></font><p><a href="http://ofblog.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">OF Blog of the Fallen</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 09:57:47
subject: <b>Not moggy</b>
body:
I don't think this fade was moggy in disguise. First of all, why would she do it? Such a move does not seem to fit in with her own plans. Secondly, the fade doesn't act like her. Finally, as the spider, she hides in the shadows, more taking advantage of events than manipulating them to the same degree as, say, Demendred. Doesn't this seem just a little proactive for a Forsaken who seems to spend most of her time spying?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 10:35:03
subject: <b>I Like it</b>
body:
That's one well thought out theory I'll have to re-read that section. Just to clear up the strength issue when Fain captured the Myrdraal in The Two Rivers I can't remember the exact quote but he had to use enough chains to hold a wagon team or something like that and it was only just enough. Besides that I have to agree with the rest of the theory. It wouldn't be Fain's Myrdraal there is no way he want's anyone but himself to be the one to kill Rand or at the least he want's to be there to see it.


created: 2002-03-14 10:58:05
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
He has the ability to cut people off from anysource of power. That is why the forsaken fear him. They fear him even more in Shayul Ghul because they are forbidden to channel there. I believe this fade is SH. If it was not it wouldn't make much sense. A fade that is always there but never known. The DO special tool in way. Hand of the Dark, reaching his hand upon the world. Along with his ability to cut people off perhaps he may even be able to use the mask of mirrors. And as for fain having a fade anymore is almost impossible. Because after Fain became Mordeth he became an enemy to be feared yet a powerful ally to the DO<br />


created: 2002-03-15 04:12:18
subject: <b>Loony theory</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />My theory is that SH is taller near SG and reason for that is that he is construct totally made of TP not natural Fade like rest of Lurks. So without TP he would not exist at all. When he visited Carridin consentration of TP in Amador was lower than near SG, so he really was shorter. Naturally if I am correct he will grow taller, when seals become weaker and during TG he will be a giant<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-15 16:22:34
subject: <b>Ishy/fade</b>
body:
Burr: If someone had walked in, would they have seen anything amiss if Carridin was talking to another man, or if he was talkling to a fade and not trying to dismember it? Ishy/the fade was making sure that carridin was cowering and not able to take the upper hand.<br /><br />- if that was Ishy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 07:39:40
subject: <b>not SH</b>
body:
Carridin wouldn't be important enough for SH to care - by 'hand of the dark' we assume the DO's personal right hand, not someone to run errands for any forsaken not even the nae'blis


created: 2002-03-26 20:27:37
subject: <b>It IS Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
Think, a fade that laughs, who does this remind you of? Shaidar Haran, also one of the forsaken isn't likely to waste his time with Carridin.  But what if the DO wanted to send Haran out on some &quot;test drive&quot; with something easy.  And what would be easier than intimidating some puny darkfriend.  I think all this points to the mystery fade being Shaidar Haran and not one of the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JeevesI<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Wielder of &quot;&#8482;&quot;<br />Asha'man extrodinare<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Ruler of the WoT faction at Mass-Defect</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 12:14:34
subject: <b>sh / ish</b>
body:
Either of these is a possibility. The one thing that I think is agreed upon is that this is no ordinary fade.<br /><br />This eliminates the possibility of the fade being Fain's. Fades don't laugh. The only exception is SH, who is not a normal fade by any account. A fade that has been turned by Fain is still a fade. The other racial characteristics do not change.<br /><br />It could well be that this was Jordan's introduction of SH. If such were the case, however, it seems more likely that the descriptions would match, so that books later we would say, &quot;oh, that explains it.&quot; The height issue is relevant. More importantly, SH seems to be the DO's way of keeping the forsaken in line. So the heirarchy is DO -&gt; SH -&gt; Forsaken -&gt; Darkfriends. The forsaken aren't happy about this new development (being put third in line). Why bother with having SH try to replace 13 forsaken (trying to make sure the DO's will is done outside of Shayol Ghul), when it is more efficient to use him to cower the forsaken. The fade's clothing &quot;hardly seeming to stir as it moved...&quot; quote is also relevant here. As I understand it, the fade's clothing is almost a part of him/it. So while the fade's clothing moves when the fade moves, it doesn't &quot;stir&quot;. Stirring implies some degree of independence. If you touch the top of a curtain, the bottom might &quot;stir&quot;. A fade's clothing moves, but not in this way; it does not &quot;stir&quot;.<br /><br />This &quot;fade&quot; is more likely a forsaken. I agree with some others that this is not likely Mog. Mog does not risk herself. She would watch. She would kill Carridin if he got in her way. But she would not risk angering Ish by playing with his toy.<br /><br />The &quot;If you wish to see it so&quot; quote is also very relevant. Unlike others, I do not see this as the fade questioning Carridin's level of committment, or the fade admitting his lack of servitude. Rather, it is about practicality and reality. Ish serves the dark one. He goes to Shayol Ghul, gets his orders (or possibly in his own mind, converses with his other self) etc. Carridin does what the forsaken tell him to do. So the &quot;fade&quot; is saying in effect, &quot;You can say you serve the DO, but you do what I tell you.&quot;<br /><br />I will concede that the shadow travelling comment is not conclusive. Fades can, by all accounts, travel that way. On the other hand, the fact that fades can shadow travel does not eliminate the possilibity that it was a forsaken travelling.<br /><br />In short, my vote is Ish.


created: 2002-10-04 22:40:20
subject: <b>I dont think it is Ishy</b>
body:
I recently did the same thing, reading some of the books again trying to understand. It worked well, I figured out(i think) where demandred is, who killed Asmodean, etc. That was before I found this site, where some of you ripped apart my theories, thank you very much.<br /><br />I always believed that Fade was actually the early introduction of shaidar haran, because it is certainly never hinted at or mentioned later on that when we first meet shaidar haran he is newly made.<br /><br />so, here's my five cents (we dont have two cents over where i am.)


created: 2002-10-29 02:48:34
subject: <b>more speculation</b>
body:
OK, bear with me because it's late here and I don't have any of the books handy but I'm pretty sure that this is the scene where Carridin is given the threat to his family. Now I've always connected the deaths of his family members to Moggie's later comment about someone still carrying out Ishmael's orders, indicating that Ishmael was involved in this particular plan (something that makes sense of his anger about Carridin not having obeyed his previous orders). So unless SH is taking orders from Ishmael I don't think that it's likely that he's this particular fade. I like the idea of it being Ishmael though.


created: 2003-01-30 14:39:48
subject: <b>The Fade Betrays Hope</b>
body:
I agree that the laughing Fade was Ishamael. At first I thought there was something wrong with the picture. On second thought, I surmised it was Demandred. Upon reading your theory, I am convinced it is Ishamael, rather than Demandred or Shaidar Haran. As for why Ishamael would disguise himself as a Fade, &quot;it pays to be a legend&quot; and a Myrddraal is psychologically more frightening than a Forsaken who would seem merely human (albeit Darkfriendish) to a Whitecloak. We know that Myrddraal's clothes don't move at all, even in harsh winds. Here, Carridin's Fade has barely moved his clothes in a closed room. If the person you are facing is frightened, it is easier to command his respect and obedience. A human-seeming Forsaken is slightly easier to indirectly defy than a Myrddraal who seem to stand high in Shadow hierarchy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 20:25:39
subject: <b>Not just Darkhounds..</b>
body:
I think this has to do with more than just Darkhounds.  Crossroads can also mean choices, and twilight is the moment between dark and light.  I think that we will see all forms of Shadowspawn as well as decisions on who to serve, the DO or the Creator.  Remember, each of the major characters all are facing choice on their next action(s) at the end of Winters Heart.<br /><br />However, excellent theory. Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 21:07:30
subject: <b>Good observation</b>
body:
I guess you very likely found out the inspiration behind the title.<br /><br />I doubt it will be used litteraly because Darkhounds make a comeback, though.  I would rather imagine that it will be used as an image,in the vein of &quot;Path of Daggers&quot;, for instance Rand thinking &quot;I'm betrayed on all sides, everything I built was infested by traitors and is now falling apart. Why was I so blind? I now feel the Forsaken breathing at my neck from all sides with the relentlessness of darkhounds after their prey but there's no running water for me to cross to safety and I feel that whatever I do I'm heading straight for the crossroads and twilight is coming&quot;


created: 2002-03-11 21:13:58
subject: <b>Darkhounds and the Great Lord(and Moiraine)</b>
body:
As I recall, there was a popular folk conception that when the darkhounds were lose that the Great Lord would be right out there with them.  This darkhound quote could refer to the fact that the Great Lord is going to become much more active in the world.<br /><br />Also, Moiraine said this quote.  Could we be seeing a return by Moiraine?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 22:51:11
subject: <b>well done</b>
body:
i never even thought of that, i didnt like the new title but knowing RJ this does come into play, the titles rarely say waht is going on in the book, they are usually just sayings or thoughts, reading through the series you see many of the titles of the books not only in the book with that title but several others, ive noticed winters heart in 3 or 4 i know one is FoH, and i think it was in EoTW too, and mabye shadow rising, so while the titles may not seem to good when u get deeper into them and consider it does make sense, which is typical RJ, <br /><br />if ive learned anything from this series its dont take anything at face value<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> anything above this line is naught but the opinion of a fool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 03:07:25
subject: <b>Surface and obvious vs depth and subtle</b>
body:
(= My guess!) Surface thing would be what you say; loads of Shadowspawn, a meeting with Darkhounds in crossroads at twilight, even. Depth would be decisions, mental and storyline crossroads.<br /><br />Wasn't WH like that also: the physical winter and also Rand becoming more and more cold hearted, some of it also in Perrin with Faile imprisoned.<br /><br />Crown of Swords: the physical crown mentioned but also Rand having a metaphorical version of it (and in a way, Egwene too); leadership being a cruel job.<br /><br />Any others like that? Can't remember... But RJ seems to be one who often uses obvious, often &quot;physical&quot; versions of idea and with those, the metaphorical, hidden meanings. Well anyways, the meaning of that title is real RAFO, and the wait is likely to be shorter than with most other RAFO's...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 04:00:41
subject: <b>Portal worlds?</b>
body:
Could mean the ways worlds will play a big part, as well as all the metaphysical stuff. Or, even the other worlds Verin talked about, that arent connect except by T'A'R (when she first told Egwene 'bout the World o'Dreams). Twilight = they are less then real, or possibly, since the pattern likes balance, in all the world parellel to the main one, the Light wins. In all the worlds perpendicular, the Dark does...


created: 2002-03-12 07:26:29
subject: <b>No!</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but that is totally wrong.  To say it has to do with Darkhounds would be &quot;Crossroads <b>at</b> Twilight.&quot;  This is <i>of</i>, not <i>at</i>, therefore it simply grammatically cannot be about darkhounds.  Besides, do you really think darkhounds would get an entire book to themselves?  That would be like naming a book after Trollocs.  This is all in theory that I tried to get posted, hopefully it will get posted now as an opposing theory to this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 09:21:55
subject: <b>Ermm</b>
body:
I don't think you need to be QUITE so literal there. No doubt it will have many meanings, we could see a big chase with the Darkhounds in this book (though they wouldn't be much good anymore, too many people know balefire, especially around our main characters).<br /><br />Someone posted this on the message board, I wish I knew who, but I don't. Anyway, it's bloody good:<br /><br />&quot;It's really obvious, if you know a little about celtic mythology.<br />(I've posted this before, but now it's apparent).<br /><br />In celtic mythology, there was another world, inhabited by fairie people. The celts knew them as Aelf-something and Eelf-something (where we get our idea of Elf from). Jordan stole their names for the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.<br /><br />Now, the way to get to the world of the faerie was to go to a joining place of the worlds. The celts believed that there were many places to get into the other world, places where there were two things joined. Examples: Shorlines (joining of earth and sea), mountain tops (joining of earth and sky), intersections or corssroads.<br /><br />Whenever they found a place where the worlds joined, they marked it with a pile of stones, a cairn, or tower.<br /><br />The cairns and towers had tricks to getting inside of them. They appeared to have no opening, but if you knew the ritual then they would open for you. Here's a rough outline of things that had to happen:<br /><br />1. You had to avoid or defeat the guardian of the gateway. This was a person or animal set to deter people from gateway. Not necessarily just standing guard, but there none the less.<br /><br />2. You had to be there at the right time. In celtic mythology, this was twilight, the time between times (the joining of day and night). This was either early morning or early evening.<br /><br />3. You had to know the pattern to open the gateway. The simplest of these was to walk clockwise around the tower or cairn three times. The opening would then open (or appear) and you would be able to enter.<br /><br /><br />That said, lets look at the title: Crossroads of Twilight.<br /><br />Hmmm....crossroads....twilight...two things that are needed to get to some other world....usually marked with a tower...<br /><br />I'd say that it looks like the next book will have someone going to the world of the finns to rescue Moiraine, by going through the tower of Ghenji.<br /><br />My personal opinion is that this will be Mat and Thom (and maybe some others), but there's no reall proof of that.<br /><br />What do you think?&quot;<br /><br />Convinced me.


created: 2002-03-12 11:03:23
subject: <b>NI!</b>
body:
He's not thinking about crossroads -of- twighlight, he's think about crossroads -at- twighlight if you want to get technical.  I doubt it's just about Darkpuppies, but I suppose it's as good an idea as any.  *walks off, leaving footprints in the pavement*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 11:18:27
subject: <b>That was my theory</b>
body:
I posted it on the theory board, but aparently the admins don't think it's a very good theory.<br /><br />Anyways, along with that.<br /><br />One of the guardians of the world-portals (or whatever you want to call them) was a man with a yellow coat.  (I'm sorry I can't remember any names right now, I'm at work...)  But what's interesting about this is that this particualr guardian always had HOUNDS with him.  Of course, they were huge, white hounds with red ears and eyes.<br /><br />Remeber.  Jordan doesn't base his story off of mythology.  He draws from it.  This whole celtic world-crossing thing is pretty prevelant throughout his books (tel'arain'rhiod is actually the celtic goddess of dreams), and I'd say it's a pretty sure thing that he studied it.  How he will apply that to the story is another guess altogether...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 12:00:11
subject: <b>My thoughts (useless as they might be)</b>
body:
I like the idea that this title could suggest that maybe the Dark Hunt and/or a trip through the tower of Ghenjei will occur- given how the story has developed so far and the hints that Moiraine will return at least one of them seems likely. <br /><br /> Might be a reference to some other possible events though. For a start a crossroads is a meeting of paths, possible this suggests that certain threads will be drawn together in this book and some (or all- although that seems unlikely just yet) of the main characters will be brought together. Twighlight, given that it can be before sunrise or sunset, could suggest that these meetings/the events surrounding them in this book will offer both hope and despair for the future (i.e some things get better, some worse).<br /><br />Another possibility perhaps is that this book will be centred around the White and Black Towers. I read in another theory that Carhien will become an important focus, but it seems to me that the towers, given the power struggles already within them or likely to develop within them and the power they represent, are much more likely to shape events than what happens in/to Carhien. What's more <br />seeing as how it's been put off for a book the battle for the White Tower has to take place in CoT. So we have crossroads, a point where things come together, meet, are connected, and where decisions are taken and twighlight, the time of day when the light and dark are mixed (like the Aes Sedai symbol from the AoL).<br /><br /> Of course there are also the more general connetations (which I agree with) of this book involving decisons, convergences and divisions, and a general darkening og the tone since the last battle wont be very exciting if it involves Rand king of the world who has defeated all problems vs a practically defeated DO cowering in Shayol Ghul.<br /><br /> I could be totally wrong of course, but you never know.<br /><br /> P.S. Having just seen LotR I thought that there were some possible similarities; Mordor/Blight, A bastion against the dark being swallowed by the dark Malkier/Minas Mogul(or what ever it is called, the other dark fortress in Gondor), Aragorn/Lan being dispossed kings + excellent warriors who were companions to Gandalf/Moraine, Mount Doom/Shayol Grul, The Shire/The Two Rivers... <br /><br />** if you haven't read LotR and don't want the story spoiled don't read further **<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />...Gandalf/Moiraine apparently dying and then returning (hasn't happened yet with moiraine but looks like it will), <br />the general fact that what begins as a quest for the characters turn into them taking a far more prominent role in world affairs (o.k. the last one is a fairly common feature of this genre). Anyway, the whole point of this is that Fain seems very similar to Golum(sp?) in that he has been altered by the dark forces so that he can, and has to, hunt down the main protaganist, Frodo/Rand. Therefore, might it be that Fain will act at the last battle in a similar way as Golum did at Mount Doom, by actually saving the day, althought they don't mean to, just as it looks like the hero won't be able to resist the lull of the dark side.<br /><br />Just a thought, might post it as a theory with a bit of work, let me know what you think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 12:28:51
subject: <b>Wait a minute..</b>
body:
Xoe, do you mean the thing I quoted is yours and you submitted it to the theory post and it was rejected?! If so...light, I knew the theory moderators were pretty uselss sometimes, but a theory as good as that being rejected beggar's belief!


created: 2002-03-12 13:48:58
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
That thing you quoted was submitted, word for word, to the theory post the same day the new title was announced.  I don't know if it's still pending or what, but I assume it's been rejected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 14:34:22
subject: <b>I dunno if...</b>
body:
...this means anything, but in tDR, CHP 43, Shadowbrothers, some Darkhounds appear and it is described as &quot;dark as late twilight&quot;.<br /><br />It probably doesn't mean anything, but I thought I'd throw it in there.


created: 2002-03-12 14:43:05
subject: <b>Crossroads of Twighlight</b>
body:
When I first heard this title, the impression I got was the &quot;area&quot; between the waking world and TAR, where Eg sees sparkles of light which look like stars, and is a path between these two worlds. I thought this would just mean Egwene and company might get mentioned in this book. Maybe Eg would have some major breakthrough in TAR or something.<br /><br />I also like the suggestions that it has to do with the Tower of Genji. After reading what Xoe and Mr. Boat wrote, I agree with them that we might be seeing someone travel to the worlds of the Finns (but we won't see Moirane until the next book).<br /><br />Of course the DO will still be gaining power in this book. As the seals weaken, he gains power, and we will continue to do so until TG. So, while maybe the book itself is not literally about darkhounds, I think the title could well refer to this as the author suggested.<br /><br />IMHO, all these answers could be included in this title. RJ is very adept at finding titles that have mulitple meanings, such as Winter's Heart. While re-reading the series, it has amazed me how often that phrase had been used in the books it preceeded.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 15:48:48
subject: <b>I suppose I should defend</b>
body:
myself only to the extent that the Crossroads and Darkhounds thing struck me cause it seemed to fit so well together.  Of course I do NOT believe that Jordan will dedicate the entire book to darkhounds... and I do like your theory a lot Xoe. I am simply saying that the connection in the quote b/w darkhounds and twilight and crossroads works... and perhaps and hopefully something will happen that involves it.  Perhaps (and as usually happens) the title will work on multiple levels-- I'm just trying to give a suggestion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 20:23:24
subject: <b>It fits!!</b>
body:
Please don't misinterpret my comment. I agree with you,Gena Sedai, but I was just saying I think the phrase fits in several ways. And I also think there is a unique parallel between this title and Winter's Heart.<br /><br />And kudo's to you for coming up with that! I certainly didn't catch it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 22:41:14
subject: <b>Xoe, that is an excellent theory</b>
body:
I can't believe it was rejected!  That makes me peeved!  I can help you try to get it posted if you want- send me a note.  A theory that good just needs to be posted- it makes too much sense.<br /> <br />To answer your question about the Tower of Ghengei- I wrote a little bit about this in my book 10 theory.  My theory was that  Perrin is also going to enter the tower- through dreamland- and he is going to get trapped thre.  Perrin obviously has some unfinished business with the tower.  I am not sure why he would enter, but it may have something to do with Faile.<br /><br />Mat and Thom will enter the tower through the non-dream world.  Mat will be looking for advice, and Thom will be spurred to save Moiraine.  When they enter, they will save Perrin as well as Moiraine.  Just my theory, but I think Perrin fits in the picture somehow.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 03:38:36
subject: <b>You're On The Right Track</b>
body:
While I tend to agree that CoT will have little if anything directly to do with Darkhounds, I believe we're gonna finally seem some serious dookie hit the fan.<br /><br />Crossroads symbolically represent two things: 1) changes are coming, and 2) the decisions we make decide outcomes of those changes.<br /><br />There are several unresolved plots threads that have had us all chomping at the bit, for numerous books in some cames.<br /><br />Here is a list of unresolved plots threads which I'd very much like to see addressed (if not exactly completed) in CoT:<br /><br />-Showdown at the White Tower<br />-Showdown at the Black Tower<br />-Resuce of Moiraine ('bout time!)<br />-Confirmation that Cyndane is Lanfear<br />-Whitecloak civil war<br />-Faile/Morgase free themselves (Perrin will NOT resuce them)<br />-Mat will marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons<br />-We will learn WHO and WHERE the heck Demandred is<br />-Rand is reunited with and disciplines Masema<br />-Siuan Sanche and Gareth Bryne tie the knot<br />-Anath will be exposed as Semirhage<br />-Moridin will fail to behave himself and lose his Nae'blis status<br />-The Borderlands do SOMEthing . . . ANYthing<br />-Bela will be revealed as Demandred (just kidding!)<br /><br />The word &quot;Twilight&quot; in the title does, yes, address the conflict in Rand between light and dark.  At some point his &quot;necessary ruthlessness&quot; and his madness will truly dawn on him, though I'm not convinced he'll know exactly what to do about it.<br /><br />Defeating the Shadow by becoming as hard as it is is no way to fight evil.  He must discern his role in the world, see the differences between good and evil, not just &quot;us&quot; and &quot;them,&quot; and must ultimately choose to do good.<br /><br />I reckon that will be the entirety of Rand's role in CoT.  He might dispose of another Forsaken, but it would be nice to see Rand back off a bit to contemplate his existence while the rest of the world catches up and takes care of some bidniz.<br /><br />And (why the heck not?) we just might see a Darkhound or two.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-13 07:10:58
subject: <b>Ah</b>
body:
But you forget, this is an even numbered book, Forsaken aren't allowed to die in even numbered books.<br /><br />Why on earth do you need more confirmation that Cyndane is Lanfear? What do you want from her? Does she need to hold the oath rod and say that she won't lie or something, then say &quot;I was Lanfear!&quot;?<br /><br />&quot;-Moridin will fail to behave himself and lose his Nae'blis status&quot;<br /><br />Do you actually believe that or are you just messin?<br /><br />Personally I think the two big things in the next book will be Moiraine's rescue and the White Tower conflict. I don't mean we won't see other things, perhaps Faile will escape/be rescued, perhaps there will be a battle near Caemlyn and Elayne will take her throne...who knows? I still think the first two things I mentioned will be the big things though.


created: 2002-03-13 08:32:53
subject: <b>Even numbered books?</b>
body:
Are you sure forsaken can't die in even numbered books, three in a boat? I can't think of any exeptions of the top of my head, but it seems like a very odd rule. I would like to see some proof before I believe it myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 08:55:52
subject: <b>Forsaken do only die in odd numbered books!</b>
body:
Ok, here's a list of dead Forsaken<br />Aginor and Balthamel died in Book 1.<br />Ishamael and Be'lal died in Book 3.<br />Lanfear, Rahvin, and Asmodean died in Book 5.<br />Sammeal died in Book 7.<br />Osan'gar died in Book 9.<br />All the others are either alive or dead in the aftermath of the cleansing of saidin.<br />So I would have to agree with you Three in a Boat!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 13:08:21
subject: <b>one more to add...</b>
body:
One more to add to the list of things that need resolved...<br /><br />&quot;Who the heck killed Asmodean.&quot;


created: 2002-03-18 10:56:52
subject: <b>Graendal</b>
body:
*see title*<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Killed Asmodean. I also posted a theory on this exact same topic, but I got nuthin'. I posted this on the CoT thread of the message board too, although I had thought it a quote from Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 06:25:17
subject: <b>Plot Device</b>
body:
I rather seriously doubt that darkhounds will be a &quot;major part&quot; of the next book. I don't see how they could be a dominant plot device.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 16:44:39
subject: <b>Could the &quot;Twilight&quot; refer to the Randland equivalent of Avalon?</b>
body:
First, let me say I really like the Celtic mythology theory.  I do think we'll see a lot of action in Finn-land in the upcoming tome.  <br /><br />My own theory about the title requires me to go out on a limb and say that I think Rand will die before TG (naturally, though, either he or LTT or both will be spun out again just in time).  I think that Rand, having come in contact with massive amounts of the taint in the cleansing of saidin, will still go mad.  We will see this progression in CoT, and by the end of the volume, Alivia will have helped him to die and his body will be placed on a funeral bier and floated down a river, with the three women accompanying him for some of the trip.  This is clear Arthurian imagery, and I think Rand, although physically dead, will end up in wherever RJ's version of Avalon is, to await his return (also Arthurian--the return of Arthur in the end of days).  Thus, he will be in a twilight world, and the darkness will seem to descend more rapidly upon Randland because he is no longer among the living to keep the forces of the DO at bay.  This might also shed some light on the &quot;Twice dawns the day...&quot; business--maybe he will die twice?  Perhaps someone who has a better grasp of Arthurian legend than I have can comment on my theory and tell me whether or not it holds up.  Also, would Rand/LTT's time of waiting in Avalon (most likely TAR) to be spun out again mean that he is bound to the Horn as well as to the Wheel?<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-09 06:26:42
subject: <b>Twilight = Tel'aran'rhiod</b>
body:
I think Crossroads obvious means meetings but also breaking apart. <br />All the characters in the books want to destroy the seanchan but Mat is on track to becoming Emperor(or first prince)and maybe he doesnt want millions to die in a civil war I think he will break apart from Rand and go his own way and maybe free the damane by making them swear oaths on an oath rod (the shaidos oath rod).<br /><br />Twilight means they will meet in T'A'R, maybe to rescue moraine<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Newbie<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;I'd forget my own head if it wasn't held on with bones and skin and things!&quot;<br />                -Leonard Da Quirm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 01:06:21
subject: <b>just thinking</b>
body:
hey whoever said about the stones connecting worlds, where stuff meets, and you said about defeating the guardian.  if it was at the tower of ghenjei, couldnt slayer be the guardian?!?!?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Friend of the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Subject of Perrin Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Friend of Jaim Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Soldier for the Two Rivers army<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 10:00:50
subject: <b>crossroads</b>
body:
Three In A Boat said:<br /><br />&quot;In celtic mythology, there was another world, inhabited by fairie people. The celts knew them as Aelf-something and Eelf-something (where we get our idea of Elf from). Jordan stole their names for the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.<br /><br />Now, the way to get to the world of the faerie was to go to a joining place of the worlds. The celts believed that there were many places to get into the other world, places where there were two things joined. Examples: Shorlines (joining of earth and sea), mountain tops (joining of earth and sky), intersections or corssroads.&quot;<br /><br />Not only do Crossroads have significance in Celtic legend, but even in Western (or maybe just American) folk legends. Many &quot;magical&quot; or &quot;mystical&quot; items, creatures or persons could be found at Crossroads, including the Devil himself; who would have to be met there at midnight, the &quot;crossroad&quot; between one day and the next.<br /><br />Just my two cents.<br /><br />--imlad<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 10:09:33
subject: <b>Sorry Xoe...</b>
body:
I posted the above after reading Three in a boat's comments, before I realized I was quoting Three quoting you.<br /><br />I don't understand why the admins wouldn't have posted that theory ::shrug::, it makes sense to me.<br /><br />--imlad<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 10:09:04
subject: <b>Wot COT may mean</b>
body:
(TGH: Prologue)<br />&quot;Already a bend is forming in the pattern, one of many points where he who will be Dragon may be turned to my service. Must be turned!&quot;<br />(COT: Dust Cover Text)<br />&quot;Now Rand must gamble again, with himself at stake, and he cannot be sure which of his allies are really enemies.&quot;<br />From the above two quotes I drew the conclusion that Rand would be the focus of an attempt to sway him to the Shadow, also the title itself hints at the change from light to darkness.


created: 2002-11-28 00:15:55
subject: <b>I'm way over my head but...</b>
body:
First I have to say that all the ideas I've read are great, and it's really hard to come up with one specific one u believe is correct when there are so many possibilities.  I'm gonna pull a little from your guys's theories if u don't mind.<br />     Here's what I'm thinking.  There are connections and seperations, between light and dark.  Meaning a big decision will be made between the White and Black Towers.  Also there is the tower everybody keeps mentioning, I can't remember the name... and the seanchan tower. I can't remember the name of that one either, something to do with ravens.  If you take all four of those towers you get a crossroads.  Also there are the ways, telanrhiod (w/ the commas wherever they go), the portal stones, and the aelfinn and ealfinn worlds.  Also Mat could lose his eye/half the light of the world here, and possibly end up stumbling into one of the gateways yet again to save moirane and get his sight back.  Or maybe Mat somehow causes Rand or Lews Therin's death.<br />           Taking all these elements together I'm gonna make twilight the sunrise type thing, stuff getting better. You have the bad stuff happening.. then the towers unite, Moirane is back...... <br />       Well this was a theory when I started out, but I didn't have it formed well enough and it just ended up being a bunch of ideas.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-03-29 22:04:52
subject: <b>Genius</b>
body:
I read this theory before COT came out, and I admit I was skeptical. But while I was reading it, I was thinking, that one theory was freakin' right... Great catch.


created: 2002-03-11 22:24:11
subject: <b>Who's bad...</b>
body:
What a great theory!  But I also think that MJ (or the DO, though he's getting lighter every year) has a plan to remake the Wheel so that he can destroy all evidence of his bad career moves...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-12 01:03:08
subject: <b>By the way, Rand is Pink !</b>
body:
In response to the theory of Michael Jackson being the Dark One and Tarmon Gaidon being a come-back concert, I have to talk about the good guys a bit.  After all, they were pretty much left out. So I say this:<br />  Rand is Pink ... as in The Pink Floyd.  (I would have said he and his pals were The Grateful Dead, but Jerry Garcia is hanging out in Telaranrhiod with Elvis right now, smokin' a doobie.)  Anyway, what better opponents for a pop star than a &quot;Dark Side of the Moon&quot; star(s).  Rand is Roger Waters, Perrin is Richard Wright (and his wolf buddies are the &quot;Several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a Pict&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, Mat is David Gilmour, and Lan is Nick Mason.<br />  When our heroes (Pink Floyd) get to the concert and see all the dancing, gyrating Dreadlords and Forsaken, they'll call up a little &quot;Run like Hell&quot; and that's exactly what the dancin' freaks will do.  When MJ gets pissed and calls down a little &quot;Thriller&quot; and &quot;Billie Jean&quot;, our guys will just call up some &quot;Young Lust&quot;, then Egwene, Faile, and all the randy little Saldean farm girls will dance the sasara, causing MJ to lose concentration so Rand and Company can seal him back up in his prison.  Then it will be all &quot;Wish you were here&quot; and &quot;Have a Cigar&quot; as the good guys celebrate.<br />  This Breaking that Rand's supposed to do is simply the end of pop and hip-hop, and he saves the world by bringing back the edgy, grungy, 60's style of psychedelic tunes.<br />  Think about it ..... NO MORE MARIAH CAREY, BRITNEY SPEARS, OR CHRISTINA AGUILERA !!!!!  Nothin' but blue skies, cotton candy, and Pink Floyd on the soon to be invented by Herrid Fel (he's coming back, you know) radios.<br />  Total Bliss.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-12 21:22:01
subject: <b>Trippers....</b>
body:
....u all are<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 01:35:20
subject:
<b>LOL! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />This explains a lot....</b>

body:
Like how MJ had the power to disappear in the &quot;Remember the Time&quot; video, and also how he changed into a panther in another. And of course he has seemingly been around for centuries, and no one knows what he really looks like. Wow! All this evidence he was the DO and we never realised!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Prepare to experience the fury of ... </i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 17:02:28
subject:
<b>That's muh Warder! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I must agree with him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 21:54:19
subject: <b>Myrddraal as back vocals</b>
body:
we can not forget mike's strange pastyness.  The performer now is not real he is a Myrddraal helping to build his empire.  lets not forget the armies of little children in the Age of Legends.  interesting thoughts


created: 2002-04-29 11:57:19
subject: <b>*bows*</b>
body:
I am only here to amuse<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 17:25:47
subject:
<b>Great Theory  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Nicely done, a great theory. (the funniest thing about FF:TSW films Thriller parody was how much AKI looked like Wacko Jacko)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><u><b>Owner</b></u> of Mat Girl - I have it in <i>writing</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>'Wight now I imagwin your feewing a bit wike Awice, tumbewing down the wabbit hoewl'</i>-<b><u>Morpheus</u></b><br /><br /><b><u>I am <i>NOT</i> a Zoo!</u></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 12:39:35
subject: <b>LOL!</b>
body:
I always knew there was something REALLY wrong about MJ and all of his fans! Keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Goddamn it! Who gave Max Payne the power to channel?&quot; - Edge<br />&quot;Max Payne is officially Naeblis!&quot; - Maddy</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 05:55:33
subject: <b>MJ</b>
body:
There's another proof for the Myrdraal being Michael Jackson! On the cover of the 13th German WoT book (That is teh first part of LoC, they bl****  split the books into two to four smaller ones!)<br />Well, anyway on this cover is a Myrdraal and it looks EXACTLY like Michael Jacksons.. just without eyes..


created: 2004-08-20 16:12:15
subject: <b>I knew it</b>
body:
Thriller IS the song!<br />But Grease is the word.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If this is real then, I was mistaken...and if there is truth then why can't we find it? But beauty comes to those who have been waiting...for something that is bigger than themselves...&quot;<br />-Bright Eyes<br /><br /><i>Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-15 19:51:47
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
You got me at &quot;Jacksonspawn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. Hilarious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 13:59:17
subject: <b>Spinnings of the wheel</b>
body:
I think you are right.<br /><br />I took it to mean they had met each other in other spinnings of the wheel, not necessarily through the horn. Kinda like Birgette and Gadial being spun out throughut history. This is also been stated in a theory which clains the male channeler (Guire Asmun?? something or other.. I don't have my book with me) that Artur defeated was a re-incarnation of LTT as is Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 14:19:18
subject: <b>A slight monkywrench....</b>
body:
We have been given evidence and theories by several characters that indicate that &quot;souls&quot; of the heroes bound by the horn are spun out by the pattern over and over again.  Our most specific evidence that those heroes lived other lives in Westland, or the pre-breaking equivalent, comes from Birgitte's PoV.  She explains that she knows Mogehedien (I can never spell her name without looking) from the her incarnation previous to Birgitte during the War of Power.  The heroic &quot;soul&quot; that was bound in the World of Dreams as its last incarnation, Birgitte, untill it's next rebirth, but Moggy still recognized Birgitte as that previous incarnation.  It is also important that the heroes can remember all of their incarnations, if somewhat dimly, while they are between lives.  Now with this evidence that can characters can face each other as different incarnations at different times but in the same world, it would hold true that Hawkwing and the Dragon, two of the most &quot;powerfully heroic&quot; figures we know of, have met, faught or worked together, countless times during the many turnings of the wheel.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Alric seVinta<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">OCWIATJ Forever<br /></font><p><a href="http://ofblog.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">OF Blog of the Fallen</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 14:33:00
subject: <b>Ermm</b>
body:
I don't know how, but the souls just recognise each other, it doesn't matter how they do or whatever. The heroes still with the horn seem to be able to see the soul rather than just the current incarnation.


created: 2002-03-13 15:59:41
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I always took that saying to be talking about previous ages where they have ben spun out. Personally I think this is a more likely scenario.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 16:41:14
subject: <b>To Alric:</b>
body:
I seem to remember Birgitte talking about the incarnation where she met Moggy.  Did Birgitte, actually mention that the Birgitte incarnation was after this particular AoL incarnation?  I have been trying to narrow down when the Birgitte Silverbow incarnation actually happened and I have found very little to help.  I would appreciate it if you could find this reference for me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 17:52:25
subject: <b>Agree with Alric seVinta....</b>
body:
I don't think Artur recognizes Rand, I think the 'hero' who was once spun out as Artur recognizes the Dragon from previous lifetimes.  I don't agree that the other 'If' worlds come into play with the world of dreams.  I think they may be similar but how could you have a 'hero' die in one of the worlds and not in the other, ei Artur's forces lost in the 'IF' world in TGH.  Artur has been spun out many times, sometimes with the Dragon sometimes without.  He recognizes him regardless....plus how about those in-between times when both have not been spun out.  Wouldn't the both be in the world of dreams at the same time????


created: 2002-03-15 10:49:04
subject: <b>Alric is right</b>
body:
&quot;Worlds of If&quot; have nothing to do with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-16 13:54:48
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
In response (and thanks for the thoughtful comments), I like what Huor said.  This raises another issue, of course -- that of reincarnation.<br /><br />It's not just the Dragon Reborn.  It's not just Birgitte and Gaidal Cain. We've seen a whole web of reincarnation.  Mat talks of his 'memories'.  Are they his (i.e., his previous incarnations), or the memories of random people?  <br /><br />If RJ maintains his consistency, EVERYONE his reincarnated.  So who's Ilyena? Who is...a lot of people?  This puts a new element on Luc/Isam.  Luc IS Isam. <br /><br />(heh, can't help but being reminded of Zaphod Beeblebrox the First -- his great-grandfather was Zaphod IV, due to an accident with time machine and a contraceptive.)<br /><br />But, this leads up to how will this play out over time?  Surely such a prominent earlier figure such as Guaire Amalasan has a counterpart in the story -- Logain?  (I still submit that Guaire was not a villain; he didn't do anything that Hawkwing didn't do either)  Maybe that's why Logain is laughing in Egwene's dream; he finally gets what he wanted, only this time it's handed to him and he doesn't have to fight FOR it (but as an ally of it).<br /><br />Then, ultimately, we're talking about the issue of whether we're dealing with a whole set of archetypal figures.  It's starting to look that way.


created: 2002-03-16 18:34:59
subject: <b>Ilyena=Elayne</b>
body:
<br />Ilyena=Elayne<br />It makes sense...names are similar and looks are simillar too...to a degree or so.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> =  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> = BladeMaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> =</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 04:25:03
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
If I'm wrong, then shoot me<br /><br />In the world of Temporal Theory, technically there is no beginning and no end to time and thus the wheel of time.  So anyone bound to the Horn throughout history will be called back when the Horn is sounded, even if they are not born yet.  So a part of Brigitte's essence and/or soul will be brought back when the Horn is sounded again, even though she is alive when it does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 05:25:37
subject: <b>Ilyena et al.</b>
body:
I agree Elayne is the obvious choice, but what makes me hesitate is, well, what does that mean about the other two?  Chopped liver?  However, it is noteworthy that Elayne is the first one Rand fell for.<br /><br />Hmmm...having a thought...if Logain is Guaire, then maybe that gives an inkling to the clue of who Taim is...Raolin Darksbane?  Yurian Strongbow?  Those are the two in particular that get said in hushed tones among those in the know, while Guaire doesn't seem so bad (at least, from my memory).<br /><br />And it sparks a thought in me about the 'prized third name' from the age of legends.  Lews Therin TELAMON, Ishy's third name, the one that either Sammael or Demandred didn't get.<br /><br />Perhaps those third names are people who were or are famous enough to recognize who their predecessor personalities were.


created: 2002-03-25 18:01:28
subject: <b>nope.</b>
body:
your juncture idea just doesn't work ... what do those worlds have to do with eachother? nothing. theres no juncture.<br /><br />as for hawkwing, it's my guess that this is the name his &quot;self&quot; has chosen to keep/practice ... yah, he came after LTT, the last dragon, the only conclusion from this is that his name is recent. nothing more.<br /><br />so apparantly the heroes are aware of current events. birgitte hasn't been out since she was around to have all those stories created about her, else she'd have a different name.<br /><br />also, you missed hawkwing's comment about 'more time' ... he said &quot;i've faced you as many more&quot; as in fighting against LTT, not beside.<br /><br />makes ya wonder about the other names of LTT before he was LTT.


created: 2002-10-12 08:55:53
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Then how come Birgitte doesn;t recognise Olver as Gaid C. Is this evidence that he isn't?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Daughter of the Ten Moons<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Mat's right hand girl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Even dolls have a limit, and Timmy has reached his. What he needs right now is a big Martimmy&quot;<br />                - Timmy, to his Princess</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 11:42:08
subject: <b>Did you write that theory on the other site, or did you cut and paste?</b>
body:
I read one EXACTLY like it, same words and all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I like the idea of it, but why has Jordan not clued us into the technology of any sort of 'homing device'? I havent heard Jordan talk about it yet, and unless he's going to slap us in the face with it, I'd have to disagree <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 12:19:32
subject: <b>Good Theory, but highly unlikely</b>
body:
I like the concept, and i do agree that the Crown has special properties, but not as a homing beakon.  It could be that there was an inverted weave on the crown that let anyone know when it was touched be someone who could channel.  I won't argue each point by point, but I do believe that some of it can be easily explained but Rand being Ta'veren.  How about in TDR when everyone in Tear knows he's coming, I don't think that can only be caused by Be'lal's dreams.


created: 2002-03-14 12:48:54
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
&quot;why has Jordan not clued us into the technology of any sort of 'homing device'?&quot;<br /><br />Actually he has. Moiraine gave Mat, Perrin and Rand coins when she first met them which allowed her to know where they were in a similar way to the warder bond. They could even lose the coins and regain them adn it stillw worked. the author of the theory really should have put that in.<br /><br />Well if there is a hiing beacon it ain't Min that's for sure! They didn't know where he was in WH yet Min was with him all the time.<br /><br />The problem with your theory is that almost every example can be explained away with something else. Why did they attack Rand's room? Well, it was his room, the Asha'man could ahve been informed that he was in there by spies. the only, one that I couldn't really give another reason for is the Mat meeting thing. However, there are certain things...for example it might just have been a rumour that coincidentally started just after Rand had indeed been there. Or perhaps someone was spying on Rand (Moridin? He could be invisible w/o Rand knowing he was there) from Caemlyn and saw Mat through the gateway.<br /><br />None of these things prove you are wrong of course, but they kind of take awa any proof you might have had.<br /><br />I'm not sure if I believe it...it's very interesting that's for sure. Hoefully some other blackboarders will come up with further proof for or against it.


created: 2002-03-14 14:37:01
subject: <b>The Dark One....</b>
body:
The DO made Fain his hound, Fain was able to close his eyes and point directly to Rand and to a lesser degree the other two boys.  Now that the DO has lost control of Fain whats to stop him from making more hounds out of his other black followers.  I think that this is more likely then homing devices.


created: 2002-03-14 15:24:13
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
that doesn't work MrFroggy, if it was so then the Forsaken wouldn't have been wondering where Rand was, they'd know.


created: 2002-03-14 21:18:22
subject: <b>Sounds off the wall to me.............</b>
body:
The reason the attacking Asha'man hadn't felt anything was 'cause Rand hadn't channeled enough for them to detect,<br /><br />Taim went to the palace to talk to Rand and found the details, Asha'man can travel, they could scout the road between Cairhien and Tar valon fairly quickly.<br /><br />Whats his bucket in Shadar Lagoth must be watching Rand closely, so no homing device,<br /><br />The Ashaman could were trusted until they attacked, they could of easily found Rand's location,<br /><br />Whats his name under Mat wouldn't know anyone connected to such device, who would reveal such knowledge?????<br /><br />However.... if there is one on his person it would be the angreal of the man, Rand didn't have the Crown yet, he doesn't take his sceptor to telanrhioid either.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 21:29:35
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
doesn't Rand lose the angreal at the end of LoC (is that right? I think so, no doubt Taim has it) and some of these things happen later than that.<br /><br />Still, the fact that Jordan mentioned Rand touching the crown is interesting...though it might mean nothing. I have been guilty of reading too much into his words in the past.


created: 2002-03-14 21:49:37
subject: <b>Hmmm, 3 in a boat- that is interesting</b>
body:
Your point about Taim having the angreal.  This is high possibility, and I never even thought about that before.<br /><br />One thing I was thinking is that Dumai's Wells was planned between Mesaana and Demmy, and maybe Graendal as well.  <br /><br />I would imagine that Galina was instructed to alert Mesaana of any objects of power.  By giving Taim the angreal, then Galina could  have been guaranteed an escape from the crime-scene. Of course, Galina was later captured by the Shaido. <br /><br />However, if Taim had found the angreal- then I am sure that the angreal is now property of Demandred.  Taim most likely works for Demmy, so Demmy would most certainly have gotten the angreal.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 23:05:19
subject: <b>The Crown</b>
body:
I think the significance of Rand touching the crown before leaving his apartments had to do with Cadsuane not being impressed with a grand entrance with Crown and Scepter. So he left them. It is still odd that they survived the explosion, but perhaps its just ta'veren at work.<br /><br />And Rand had neither Crown nor Scepter when he went to Shadar Logoth.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-15 11:07:55
subject: <b>Not likely</b>
body:
The idea of homing devices is ridiculous. How would the Forsaken get their hands on the Dragon Scepter, let alone Rand's belt buckle? It is possible, but not very likely, that the D.O. gave a little of Fain's &quot;hound&quot; ability to the reborn Forsaken (Moridin and Dashiva/Osan'gar). Personally I think all this is coincidence and/or ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 12:26:37
subject: <b>Sigh</b>
body:
Do you two even bother to read other people's blackboard posts or just state uninformed opinions? I have already given an example of when a homing device has been used in the series, Moiraine uses the coins she gives the three taveren at the beginning of the series as homing devices.<br /><br />As to how they could get there hands on it if there is one, Moridin would be quite capable of getting at such an object undetected. Another way would be if a spy informed one of the Forsaken that Rand had left the city to go to another, it's risky as you never know when he'll return for certain, but opening a gateway to his room would be possible.<br /><br />I'm not saying I believe a homing device is being used, but I am saying that the idea that a homing device is ridiculous is, itself, ridiculous.


created: 2002-03-15 13:28:21
subject: <b>There *could* be a homing device</b>
body:
There very well could be a homing device along the lines of the coins that Moiraine gave to the boys at the beginning of EotW. This doesn't mean, however, that there is.<br /><br />Rand does seem to make a point of carrying around the Dragon Scepter, Crown of Swords, and Laman's sword whenever he has a chance. He has reasons (or rationalizations) for keeping each of these on his person, so any of these could be a homing device.<br /><br />However, we know from the coins that the device does not need to be kept for it to keep working, although it is best if it is. Therefore, it does not need to be something that Rand constantly has on his person, or even is in ownership of currently. I got the impression from EotW that once the boys put down the coins that the link would fade quickly, but if the Forsaken are involved, they may know of a better way to handle it.<br /><br />So, what items has Rand carried around with him for long periods of time? Here's a list off the top of my head:<br /><br />Tam's Sword. This is the first &quot;thing&quot; that Rand aquires in the books. He also kept it with him for quite a while, even sleeping with it at times if I remember correctly (since he was on the run through a great deal of EotW). However, there wasn't really a chance for anyone else to get their hands on it, and he hasn't had it for so long, I doubt that the link would still be effective now. Also, nobody was quite sure if he was even the Dragon Reborn at this point, and Ishy was keeping tabs on him through his dreams, where distance and location are pretty much meaningless.<br /><br />Thom's Flute. Pretty much the same as above, except that Rand had it for an even shorter time, and he got it from Thom, not Tam. As for his new flute, he doesn't even carry that around with him much.<br /><br />Mat's Dagger. It was pretty much said outright that in the books that darkfriends felt drawn to the dagger, even though they didn't quite know why. However, the dagger was in Mat's posession, and he is (as far as we know) completely free of its influence. Also, he isn't even with Rand now.<br /><br />Dragon Banner. Along with the first seal, this is the first thing that Rand picks up after it is proven without a doubt that he is the Dragon Reborn. It makes a lot of sense to make the homing device something that you know the person you want to track is going to get their hands on. However, it was at the bottom of The Eye, and I doubt that anyone could have gotten their hands on it until The Eye was emptied. Also, I doubt that it could have been rigged before it was put in The Eye. Finally, Rand left it in Tear and kept it as far away from himself as he possibly could.<br /><br />Callandor. Another really good choice for a homing device. However, we don't really know much about how it was held in place and what protection it had on it. Also, not only did Rand leave it in the Stone, he didn't keep it too terribly long.<br /><br />The Dragon Scepter. Good choice, since he seems to take it with him almost everywhere he goes. Who would have had a chance to rig it though? With all the channelers following Rand about, it would be very risky to try to do something like that undetected.<br /><br />The Dragon Belt Buckle. Same as above. Too risky. Also, it isn't something that people notice as much as the scepter. People named the scepter as such because he carried it around so much. Nobody recognizes the Dragon because of his nifty keen belt buckle.<br /><br />Laman's Sword. Another unlikely candidate. First, Rand had the hilt removed. Would that have broken the link? Would it have created two homing devices? It is possible, but there are too many complications to make it likely.<br /><br />The Crown of Swords. This is the first thing that has a really good chance of being an appropriate homing device. Not only was it in the &quot;posession&quot; (and I use that term very loosely) of one of the Forsaken for quite a while, and he knew Rand was coming for him. However, RJ has said that Sammy died, so unless he's been brought back, he can't be tracking Rand, and even then the link might have been broken when he died. Of course, it might not have been Sammy who was tracking him.<br /><br /><br />Those are all the things I could think of that could have been used to track Rand. None of them are really likely. It still is a possibility though.<br />


created: 2002-03-15 14:28:30
subject: <b>3 coins.</b>
body:
Whatever happened to those 3 coins anyway? Do we know? (Not that I think it really matters, but just wondering.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 14:29:21
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
To Sven Littlehorse &amp; Goldeneyes, the submitters of this theory - <br /><br />I read this exact theory word for word on another site a few days ago.  one of the posters on another theory put in the URL to the site.  it contained two other theories besides the homing device theory.  Perhaps you will submit the Evil Min Theory next - word for word<br /><br />if you are the author of the original theory at that site, then more power to you; you have the right to spread your thought provocing ideas with the rest of us.  however, if you just copied it from them, then you plagerized and that is wrong.  if you really wanted to post this theory at wotmania, you should have gotten permission of the writer, and then made a comment that you submitted this with their consent.<br /><br />the theory is good and well presented, though.  the Evil Min Theory at that site was good as well.  whether there are homing devices on Rand's person, we'll know eventually


created: 2002-03-15 16:09:22
subject: <b>Planning</b>
body:
&quot;One thing I was thinking is that Dumai's Wells was planned between Mesaana and Demmy, and maybe Graendal as well.&quot;<br /><br />I think the kidnapping was planned by Mesaana and Demandred, with helps from Graendal, perhaps, but I don't see how or why.<br /><br />OTOH, the rescue at Dumai's Wells, I think, was ordered by Moridin to Dashiva/Osang'ar, though Shaidar Haran.  Moridin kept an eye on Rand from Cairhien the same way he followed him to Shadar Logoth - whatever that is. He told Dashiva to put a stop to it and rescue Rand, either by ordering Taim openly or more likely by a more subtle manipulation like Asha'man scouts secretly controlled by Dashiva warning Taim that Rand was in danger, forcing Taim to act or reveal himself as a traitor.  By doing that, Moridin stole control of the Asha'man from Demandred. With Dashiva near Rand, Demandred has lost his &quot;private access&quot; - Dashiva could counteract on most Rand-related orders Demandred would give to Taim and Demandred could do nothing since Osan'gar was there on the DO's direct orders!<br /><br />This is something I'm currently working into a Moridin/Sha'ra theory and for which I'm still collecting evidence and clues. <br /><br />I don't think Moridin needs a tracking device or has one. His network of spies and his manipulation of the other Chosen are more than sufficient. <br /><br />Basically, I think that Shaidar Haran was a device used by the DO to hide Moridin's existence from the other Chosen for a while, so that Moridin could secretly take back control and REALLY tell the DO how the world fared and what the Chosen were REALLY doing. <br /><br />He could also take the time to plan properly with the DO the final strategy before TG, picking the pieces from where they were then placed on the Sha'ra board.  By giving them sspecific orders to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;, the DO could let Moridin observe in secret how they fit that in their plans, what their plans are and also identify the traitors. <br /><br />The game of Sha'ra is not played against Rand or the Light at all - the second side Moridin is playing is the Chosen's, the 9 other persons alive who knew how to play that game. Moridin was given three new pieces to place where he wished : Osan'gar, Aran'gar and Cyndane - plus Shaidar Haran.   Even the Gars were not told initially about the existence of Moridin - it was crucial that they believed the DO, not Ishamael, was ordering them directly, so that they wouldn't be tempted to join the others' plans. The DO now wants his Chosen held very closely from now on - he doesn't trust any but the Naeb'lis.<br /><br />Moridin plays his own side, the DO's, the game he has been playing as Ishamael originally, and he plays the other side. First he used only SH and the resurrected Chosen and put them strategicaly among the others, and eventually he won control of all the others using... the Fisher. They all played his game since LOC and they don't know it yet! Once Ishamael blundered.  He rushed blindly to get the Fisher from the other &quot;player&quot; (In Tear - out of the competing clutches of Sammael, Mesaana, Be'lal, Lanfear) and when a player does that, it results in a blood bath on the board - Ishamael lost and died. Moridin won't let that happen again, he won't let any control to the Chosen.<br /><br />Because of SH, the Chosen were all fooled from LOC to POD and learned about Moridin's existence too late to be able to hide their little schemes or adapt their strategies because of his arrival. Very very clever DO.<br /><br />Mesaana's personal schemes are now hindered by Aran'gar being among the Rebels, Demandred's are now hindered with his Asha'man and when he tries to use Taim to manipulates Elayne in the direction he wishes, Moridin has already recuperated BA sisters from Moghedien, Lady Shiaine from Sammael and Halon from Ravhin to stall him!  He did similar things to Graendal and Sammael, and even to Semirhage by putting Liandrin (her whereabouts provided to him by Moghedien) with the High Lady Suroth, but I'll leave that for the actual theory.  I'm sure he recuperated Isam too from his previous owner (Lanfear, IMHO - that would explain why he disappeared from the story when she did and why he returned only when she's back).<br /><br />I think Jordan, while providing many clues, very cleverly used Shaidar Haran to hide the existence of Moridin from us too.  This way, he didn't kill the suspense by revealing that the Chosen's current plans are a moot point and will all be forestalled, nor did he reveal much about the DO and Moridin's real plan which no doubt he wants to keep for the final sprint toward TG.  And if I'm right with this theory, I'd bet this big twist in the plan will occur in CoT, in a Moridin vs. Demandred showdown that will force Mesaana and Semirhage to choose their camp (and at least one will save her skin and choose Moridin's side, I think).<br /><br />But I don't think Moridin needs an homing device - he has sufficient control already.


created: 2002-03-15 17:17:28
subject: <b>This theory was posted by the writer</b>
body:
For those of you who are confused, Goldeneyes was one of the co-authors of this the Homing Device theory.  He posted it, on my request, to this site.  You will probably see a few more of his theories in the next week or so.  <br /><br />I want to extend my thanks to Goldeneyes for sharing his theories to this site.  Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, it presents an interesting perspective well-quoted.  And look what is coming out of the blackboard.<br /><br /><br />To Dom: I just want to say that your last post on this blackboard was brilliant!  I always saw an association between SH and Moridin also, but never put it together like you did.  I highly encourage you to post that as soon as you finish (hopefully before November!)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 17:46:01
subject: <b>In reply to Dom's post</b>
body:
This reply is worth replying to, so here is my analysis of your post:<br /><br />&quot;I think the kidnapping was planned by Mesaana and Demandred, with helps from Graendal, perhaps, but I don't see how or why.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure of Graend's involvement either.<br /><br />&quot;By doing that, Moridin stole control of the Asha'man from Demandred. With Dashiva near Rand, Demandred has lost his &quot;private access&quot; - Dashiva could counteract on most Rand-related orders Demandred would give to Taim and Demandred could do nothing since Osan'gar was there on the DO's direct orders!&quot;<br /><br />My one thought is that Rand picked Dashiva through ta'veren coincidence.  It wasn't planned for Dashiva to be that close to Rand, it just kind of worked out to be that way.  <br /><br /><br />&quot;I don't think Moridin needs a tracking device or has one. His network of spies and his manipulation of the other Chosen are more than sufficient.&quot;<br /><br />True<br /><br />&quot;Basically, I think that Shaidar Haran was a device used by the DO to hide Moridin's existence from the other Chosen for a while, so that Moridin could secretly take back control and REALLY tell the DO how the world fared and what the Chosen were REALLY doing.&quot;<br /><br />This makes sense.  Do you think that SH is Moridin??  Based on the theories of the last couple of weeks such as the Everlasting Fade, it makes perfect sense that SH is actually Moridin.  This is also the only way I could think of that allows Osangar and Arangar to be under Moridin's control.  Because Moridin didn't appear until ACoS, while SH made his first (debately) appearance in LoC.  If Moridin was posing as SH, then that is how he managaed to wean those 2 forsaken under his control.<br /><br />&quot;He could also take the time to plan properly with the DO the final strategy before TG, picking the pieces from where they were then placed on the Sha'ra board. By giving them sspecific orders to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;, the DO could let Moridin observe in secret how they fit that in their plans, what their plans are and also identify the traitors.&quot;<br /><br />Traitors??  Doesn't the DO already know their plans??  I thougth that the DO was the one who ordered Demandred in the 1st place (at least in LoC).  I am a little confused by this paragraph.  I don't think any of the forsaken are foolish enough to be full-blown traitors- although they might have a bunch of little sub-plots (such as Sammael, Lanfear, and Graendal) that are unknown to the DO.  <br /><br />&quot; Even the Gars were not told initially about the existence of Moridin - it was crucial that they believed the DO, not Ishamael, was ordering them directly, so that they wouldn't be tempted to join the others' plans. The DO now wants his Chosen held very closely from now on - he doesn't trust any but the Naeb'lis.&quot;<br /><br />This is the best point of your theory.  To me, it also makes sense that SH might be Moridin.<br /><br />&quot;First he used only SH and the resurrected Chosen and put them strategicaly among the others, and eventually he won control of all the others using... the Fisher.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not completely sure about this.  Dashiva was placed near Demmy's men.  But what about Halima?  Do  you think there was another forsaken in the Salidar camp?  And we still don't know much about his plans for Cyndane and Moggy.<br /><br /><br />&quot; Once Ishamael blundered. He rushed blindly to get the Fisher from the other &quot;player&quot; (In Tear - out of the competing clutches of Sammael, Mesaana, Be'lal, Lanfear) and when a player does that, it results in a blood bath on the board - Ishamael lost and died. Moridin won't let that happen again, he won't let any control to the Chosen.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure about his yet.  It actually seemed pretty foolish for Ishmael to rush into Tear the way he did.  Especially since Rand already had Callandor.  Be'lal was already dead.  And what good would Ishmael's death do to prevent Rand from being captured by Lanfear and the others during his absence?<br /><br />&quot;Because of SH, the Chosen were all fooled from LOC to POD and learned about Moridin's existence too late to be able to hide their little schemes or adapt their strategies because of his arrival. Very very clever DO.&quot;<br /><br />This makes sense.  But it really begs the question:  Why is Ishmael so important??  Why is he so much better than any of the others?  Why not demandred or Graendal?  What is special about the soul of Ishmael?  Do you think that Ishmael is the Anti-Dragon??  Sort of the exact reverse of Lews Therin??  Why else could explain this?<br /><br />&quot;Mesaana's personal schemes are now hindered by Aran'gar being among the Rebels, Demandred's are now hindered with his Asha'man and when he tries to use Taim to manipulates Elayne in the direction he wishes, Moridin has already recuperated BA sisters from Moghedien, Lady Shiaine from Sammael and Halon from Ravhin to stall him! He did similar things to Graendal and Sammael, and even to Semirhage by putting Liandrin (her whereabouts provided to him by Moghedien) with the High Lady Suroth, but I'll leave that for the actual theory. I'm sure he recuperated Isam too from his previous owner (Lanfear, IMHO - that would explain why he disappeared from the story when she did and why he returned only when she's back).&quot;<br /><br />Moridin definitely is moving around agents.  I think to what purpose, however, is a strictly RAFO matter.<br /><br />&quot;I think Jordan, while providing many clues, very cleverly used Shaidar Haran to hide the existence of Moridin from us too. This way, he didn't kill the suspense by revealing that the Chosen's current plans are a moot point and will all be forestalled, nor did he reveal much about the DO and Moridin's real plan which no doubt he wants to keep for the final sprint toward TG. And if I'm right with this theory, I'd bet this big twist in the plan will occur in CoT, in a Moridin vs. Demandred showdown that will force Mesaana and Semirhage to choose their camp (and at least one will save her skin and choose Moridin's side, I think).&quot;<br /><br />I wouldn't mind seeing a Moridin vs. Demandred show-down.  Demandred has definitely expressed his wish of supplanting Moridin.  however, I do not think it would be a direct combat showdown.  IT would be more subtle and indirect.  Demandred is not stupid, and to win the favor of the DO he could not kill Moridin directly.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;But I don't think Moridin needs an homing device - he has sufficient control already.&quot;<br /><br />probably<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 20:32:36
subject: <b>Answer</b>
body:
Thnaks for the compliments Matrimony... I sure hope to be able to post the full theory soon.  I'm sure you'll like how I fit Sammael &amp; Graendal, the gholam and Harid Fel into this... <br /><br />-------My one thought is that Rand picked Dashiva through ta'veren coincidence. It wasn't planned for Dashiva to be that close to Rand, it just kind of worked out to be that way. <br /><br />Yup.  An added bonus for Moridin.  But, correct me if I'm wrong (this is why my theory isn't ready yet, unending double-checking...), didn't Rand noticed that Taim was shocked that he chose Dashiva, and wasn't Taim the one to propose Asha'man body guards initially?  If my theory is right, Taim's allegiance is to Demandred but both are also forced to deal with Dashiva's presence, by the DO's orders.  Taim was ordered by Dem to suggest bodyguards but he also had no choice to let Dashiva come -  now he is shocked to realize that he won't control his little friends near Rand like Dem wanted him to because &quot;on mission for the DO&quot; Dashiva went with them!  Do you remember how pissed Demandred was with &quot;those idiots&quot; Asha'man in WH?  He has not realized yet that Moridin is playing the Asha'man piece on the sha'ra board - he gives orders to Taim but if Moridin doesn't like the orders, Dashiva manages to make them fail.  If SH was still the one ordering Osan'gar, then Dashiva may not even have known he was working for the Naeb'lis... and he certainly wouldn't tell Dem about orders from the DO...  That's how clever Moridin is : he is dislocating all the alliances between the Chosen and force them to work for him alone.  <br /><br />&quot;Basically, I think that Shaidar Haran was a device used by the DO to hide Moridin's existence from the other Chosen for a while, so that Moridin could secretly take back control and REALLY tell the DO how the world fared and what the Chosen were REALLY doing.&quot;<br /><br />------------This makes sense. Do you think that SH is Moridin?? <br /><br />I don't know.  It's still an open possibility for me at this point, one that I like but I'm not sure it pans out. A TP Illusion could well explain all of SH's powers, and a fade disguise is convenient to mask the saa!...  OTOH, doesn't SH show true Fade characteristics too, like the shadow travelling? I'm not sure Moridin could put that out with the TP, but maybe it's more complex than Illusion, transmigration to and from SH's body, etc. After all, that would not be much weirder than the still unexplained Luc/Isam. It's quite sweet to imagine that Moridin could have been standing right next to Demandred during his LoC chat with the DO, though... <br /><br />&quot;This is also the only way I could think of that allows Osangar and Arangar to be under Moridin's control.&quot;<br /><br />Oh, that - if Moridin came later than I think then SH simply had to tell the Gars that they now had to obey the Naeblis.  But I think that Moridin was the first to be resurrected and was provided with all the information the Chosen gave to the DO (&quot;Demandred, how fare this world?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. He learned about the Asha'man, Salidar, Graendal bringing Asmodean's body to the DO etc. I think the DO was getting pissed off by the Chosen not acting together after Ishamael's death, he resurrected Ishamael and gave him even stronger authority than before.  <br /><br />&quot;Moridin didn't appear until ACoS&quot;<br /><br />Except in Jordan's head maybe.  <br /><br /><br />&quot;Traitors?? Doesn't the DO already know their plans??&quot;<br /><br />Yes and no.  I think the DO's not all-knowing for now.  I think Ishamael was always the most honest with him. No doubt for me that the DO approved the whole Ba'alzamon stuff, for instance.  IMO, he knows what the Chosen tell him of their plans, and he counts on what they report to him about one another to double-check.  I think after FOH, the DO was worried about his Chosen being so busy scheming against one another that they could well all be balefired before TG. Lanfear's little plan got 3 of them killed back to back! So he decided it was time for a Naeblis, he resurrected Moridin and ordered him to unite them. The problem around FoH was that the Chosen were almost all having their little plan on the side, obeying the DO's orders in spirit but also trying to make the others stumble, others that were working on something else for the DO... Very counterproductive so close to TG. I don't think any is a true &quot;traitor&quot;, but they have peculiar ideas of what would please the DO.  Like Graendal and her plan to manipulate Sammael to kill Rand and get the blame in her place.  <br /><br /><br />-----Dashiva was placed near Demmy's men. But what about Halima? Do you think there was another forsaken in the Salidar camp? <br /><br />No. Mesaana's proxies there are Black Ajah. Ishamael was once the big boss of the BA, long before the Chosen awoke. No doubt he is the one who handed them to Mesaana, she was his agent in the Tower.  Note that Mesaana took active control of the Tower (Alviarin) *after* Ishamael's death. Possibly she wasn't allowed by Ishy to do that, but after his death she developped her own plan with Dem and Semirhage. Whatever she wants to achieve with the rebels, Moridin has apparently decided to take control back of the Salidar AS from her.  And with Halima heading for Tar Valon, he might even throw out Mesaana quite soon, if that's what he wants. She controls the Keeper and head of the BA, he controls Egwene as Amyrlin, friend of Rand etc.   <br /><br /><br />&quot; Once Ishamael blundered. He rushed blindly to get the Fisher from the other &quot;player&quot; (In Tear - out of the competing clutches of Sammael, Mesaana, Be'lal, Lanfear) and when a player does that, it results in a blood bath on the board - Ishamael lost and died. Moridin won't let that happen again, he won't let any control to the Chosen.&quot;<br /><br />------I'm not sure about his yet. It actually seemed pretty foolish for Ishmael to rush into Tear the way he did.&quot;<br /><br />I still have to work on this part. I'm not sure why Ishy rushed to Rand in Tear but there's no doubt he went in a desperate and hasty move to get the Fisher from the other player and got killed, he says so himself in the chapter where he plays sha'ra.  But I think he feared the dangerous combination of Lanfear+Callandor+Rand, or that Sammael would come and get Callandor.  I don't really understand his move, in any case - but it's probably not very logical anyway since himself considers it a big miscalculation.<br /><br />&quot;But it really begs the question: Why is Ishmael so important??&quot;<br /><br />Very good question.  I don't know.  This smells awfully like RAFO.<br /><br />&quot;Moridin definitely is moving around agents. I think to what purpose, however, is a strictly RAFO matter.&quot;<br /><br />As always!  But there's definitely a pattern since ACoS : he's getting more and more control over the Chosen from book to book. In WH, he even started making work on a single plan (that they don't really understand - it seems).<br /><br />Did I mentionned why sparked the theory?  LOC prologue. Mesaana thinks that Demandred's risky plan could hand them everything but at end she start to fear that the DO had another plan above it, hidden from them and *that* scared her witless. I think she was right about the plan, and right to be scared! And that it was RJ's first clue about another plan.  The second, more explicit clue, was the sha'ra game riddle in PoD.  <br /><br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't mind seeing a Moridin vs. Demandred show-down. Demandred has definitely expressed his wish of supplanting Moridin. however, I do not think it would be a direct combat showdown.&quot; <br /><br />Oh no, me neither! If Demandred is to be &quot;defeated&quot; in the next book, I sure hope it will be in a true machievellian fashion, not with a bunch of TP weaves in a single chapter... in fact, I hope the showdown with Demandred comes from a scheme where he tries to mount an alliance against Moridin that will fail and show us a bit of the extent of Moridin's tentacles. I don't even want Demandred to die but to submit and put his proxies (some still unrevealed) in the Naeb'lis hands, controlled by a mindtrap or forced by Moridin to use the True Power now that Saidin is clean of the taint and that the DO lost his hook on Demandred - the bad boy who tried to make the confirmed Naeb'lis strumble.  That would be a good way to keep Demandred in the story with his cool proxy stuff, a &quot;defeat&quot; worthy of the character and a way to preserve his quality as a dangerous opponent for Rand's forces.  It's also a perfect occasion for Moridin to reveal to us how much he controls all the others since his resurrection. Ideally, I'd like Moridin to act like that by pure rivalry and in a struggle for power, not because Dem has done anything &quot;bad&quot; in the grand scheme.


created: 2002-03-16 03:16:35
subject: <b>A possible Forsaken showdown</b>
body:
&quot;-if Moridin doesn't like the orders, Dashiva manages to make them fail. &quot;<br /><br />Hmm... Do you think that Dashiva helped keep Rand alive in Cairhienen?  Do you think that Dashiva purposely sabotaged Demandred's order to have Rand killed there?<br /><br /><br /> <br />I have  a couple of other additions to this theory.  Now that Dashiva is dead, Demandred will have some more flexibility in maneuvering his Asha'man proxies.  This could be a bone of contention with Moridin.  I also think that Demandred might have Rand's little man angreal (thanks to 3 in a boat.  I will write up a more ellaborate theory about this later).  Demandred is the last free-standing male channeler left- and now that saidin is cleansed, he will some more liberty.  Mesaana and Semirhage and Graendal are the last-freestanding women left.  Demandred, Mesaana and Semi are all an alliance to topple their opponents before they topple each other.  Graendal has also been in on the meetings with Demmy's trio.  <br />I think it is also interesting to note that neither Mesaana nor Semmy appeared at Moridin's latest meeting- neither of these women appear to be under Moridin's same spectre of influence yet.<br /><br />What we are looking at is a possible showdown.  We might actually have a fight between 2 different Forsaken camps.  <br /><br />1. There is Moridin's camp with Arangar, Moggy, Cyndane.<br /><br />2.  And there is Demandred's camp with Demmy, Semirhage, and Messana.<br /><br />Graendal is a wildcard- you never know which team she would play for.  She has alliances to both Moridin and Demmy.  She is clever and backstabbing, so you can't plan on anything with her.  But she is important, especially with her angreal.<br /><br />The camp's on the surface seem relatively evenly matched.  Let's examine these camps a little closer.<br /><br />1.  Moridin has access to all kinds of things we don't know about- including the grave.  I fully expect a return of Sammael, and a Sammael that is mindtrapped by Moridin.  Plainly, Moridin needs good generals to marshall his armies, and who better than Sammael?  Aginor or Asmodean could also make a return under the control of Moridin.  <br />     Arangar, Cyndane, and Moggy are also quite dangerous.    Do you realize that Moridin's faction has all the dreamwalkers (if you don't count those who enter dreamworld in the flash).  This faction probably also has the services of Isam, and maybe a gholam as well.  <br /><br />2.  Demandred is incredibly dangerous- and I think he probably has Rand's little fat man angreal.  Demmy also has his Asha'man (though we don't know who is black anymore) and Taim.  <br />    Semirhage is very lethal, and has access to da'mane.<br />   We have not really seen much of Mesaana's powers yet, but Mesaana does have access to most of the BA.     <br /><br />Dom- I think you are on to something.  I think it is very interesting that the only characters who have not died or are being controlled by Moridin also happen to be in an age-old alliance.  I would LOVE to see such a showdown.  I don't know how this showdown will go down, but I know that Demandred will put up a fight. I also predict that Sammael and possibly Asmodean will make their returns in the next book.  RJ did give us that whole hint about Sammael being dead.  Is that so that it will be easier but us to swallow that fact that he will be back alive in CoT?  Who knows?  But i think it could be cool, and it could resolve a lot of unanswered questions.    <br />There are 2 places, however, that would be excellent places for such a showdown to occur:  in the midst of either the black or the white tower conflicts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-16 08:09:58
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
This is certainly interesting!<br /><br />I'm not so sure that Demandred does have the angreal, I think Taim may still have it. After all, we've already seen Asha'man think of the Forsaken...well, not with scorn, but not with fear or worship like others. Taim is probably twice as arrogant as any other Asha'man and I would think only Logain comes even close to his power (I'm not saying Loagin is far behind Taim, I'm saying everyone else is far behind these two). It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that taim considers himself an equal to the Chosen and therefore if he got his hands on the angreal I doubt he'd give it to Demandred but keep it secretly for himself instead.<br /><br />As for a Forsaken showdown...I agree with you guys that it wouldn't just be between Demandred and Moridin. I was actually thinking about this a few days ago when I read that chapter in WH when Moridin gives the Forsaken orders to stop the CK being used. It would be incredibly stupid of Demandred to openly face Moridin alone for the following reasons:<br /><br />Moridin is naturally stronger than Demandred in the power as it is, not much stronger, but still the advantage is with Moridin.<br /><br />Moridin uses the True Power while Demandred uses the One Power. That means Moridin will be able to see what Demandred is doing and feel where he's doing it, while remaining practically invisible himself.<br /><br />Moridin, as Ishamael, has been free from the bore on and off for 3000 years. Who knows what discoveries he's made in that time. After all, we have seen that Moridin is able to do something similar to flight at least. None of the other have demonstrated that they know how to do this. Is it because it's impossible with the One Power, but not the True Power or is because Moridin has had the time to figure it out?<br /><br />So if there was to be a confrontation, it would indeed have to be between more than two of them. However, I'm not sure we'll see it. one of Demandred and Moridin would surely have to die. We just know Moridin isn't going to die, throughout the series he has been set up as the guy Rand's gonna have to face. Moridin will face Rand in the last book, I'm certain of it. However, I also expect Rand to kill Demandred at some stage. If not Rand I'd think even Taim is a more likely candidate than Moridin, especially if he's kept the angreal secret from him.<br /><br />Unless there is some weird Luc/Isam style thing going on, Moridin and SH are not one. We have seen both their points of views in the books with no hint that one is the other, yet we have seen hints that Moridin is indeed a Fade, if not a massively more powerful one. So for them to be one they'd have to not be aware that they changed, which doesn't seem likely.


created: 2002-03-16 20:36:58
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Three In A Boat is a God<br /><br />There are few people that are always right on in their posts.  Three in a Boat is one of those people.  all would do well to listen to his sage takes on matters.  he posseses a keen understanding of the series that surpasses most readers.<br /><br />in that case, i can't seem to recall where moridin flew (or was hinted at being able to fly) Where is that?


created: 2002-03-17 00:46:23
subject: <b>In reply to 3 in a Boat</b>
body:
Yep, rand al tor- 3 in a Boat is very perceptive.  <br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;I'm not so sure that Demandred does have the angreal, I think Taim may still have it. After all, we've already seen Asha'man think of the Forsaken...well, not with scorn, but not with fear or worship like others.&quot;<br /><br />You are probably right here, but it all depends on whether Demandred knew about the angeal or not.  If demmy knew, then Taim probably wouldn't have made it out of ACoS alive.  I did find one quote in ACoS that hints at Gedwyn finding the angreal however.  I will write a joint theory with you about this if you want 3 in a boat.  I definitely think that Demmy is not Taim, however- and I have another theory coming, using quotes I found that are not often used in this debate.  Hopefully it will get posted.<br /><br /><br /><br /> &quot;Taim is probably twice as arrogant as any other Asha'man and I would think only Logain comes even close to his power (I'm not saying Loagin is far behind Taim, I'm saying everyone else is far behind these two).&quot;<br /><br />I doubt this.  I bet Narishma is going to become very very strong- afterall Narishma also has the spark.  And some of the 2 Rivers males will become strong- Taim remarked on this find to Rand.  I think Damer is very strong but probably not nearly to the level of Logain and Taim.<br /><br />&quot;It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that taim considers himself an equal to the Chosen and therefore if he got his hands on the angreal I doubt he'd give it to Demandred but keep it secretly for himself instead.&quot;<br /><br />Me neither<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot; However, I also expect Rand to kill Demandred at some stage. If not Rand I'd think even Taim is a more likely candidate than Moridin, especially if he's kept the angreal secret from him.&quot;<br /><br />I think I would wet my pant if their was actually a Taim-Demandred showdown.  That would be the coolest thing ever!!<br /><br />&quot;Unless there is some weird Luc/Isam style thing going on, Moridin and SH are not one. We have seen both their points of views in the books with no hint that one is the other&quot;<br /><br />This all hinges on whether the true power can be used at Shayol Ghul or not.  If it can, which seems possible, then Moridin could have just weaved his Mask of Mirrors there.  If not, then Moridin and SH are probably not the same.<br /><br />&quot;, yet we have seen hints that Moridin is indeed a Fade, if not a massively more powerful one.&quot;<br /><br />What hints??  I recall the description of Moridin as being in a mcuh younger male body.<br /><br /><br /><br />For Rand al tor:  We saw Moridin and Rand in Flight at their battle in Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 04:17:57
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
Idea...<br /><br />A ward was woven in the room to let renegade Asha'man know when Rand entered the room.  The one Asha'man who said that he 'felt nothing' implying Rand is dead, would probably assume that Rand would hold onto the Power after the explosion (possibly to protect himself) and I believe that he was referring to that and not that he felt Rand was dead.<br /><br />Keep in mind that the Dragon sceptor is only a broken spear.  I do not think that it could be Power wrought because it was in Seanchan hands.  It's small, that could explain why it survived the explosion.  The crown could have survived because it is made out of something hard; metal.<br /><br />MR Froggy 420 has a point... maybe the Asha'man were clued in by Fain (highly unlikely) and they were killed by Fain because he wanted to take care of Rand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 08:24:57
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
Sorry, I wrote this:<br /><br />&quot;yet we have seen hints that Moridin is indeed a Fade&quot;<br /><br />but I actually meant this:<br /><br />&quot;yet we have seen hints that Shaidar Haran is indeed a Fade&quot;.<br /><br />While it's true that Moridin could disguise himself as a Fade, we have actually seen SH's point of view. We see it at the end of a chapter in ACoS I believe, he thinks of how he is a Fade, but a special one, because he can smell (it might actually be taste, can't remember) the difference between saidan and saidar and see it's residue. So it's unlikely he's Moridin.<br /><br />As for Narishma ending up as strong as Taim and Logain, certainly I think that may happen, but I simply mean write now in the series and Narishma is not near that level yet.<br /><br />&quot;I will write a joint theory with you about this if you want 3 in a boat&quot;<br /><br />Oh god, don't bother with that! You can use anything I say or whatever, but you don't need to credit me for anything.<br /><br />I was actually thinking of the end of TDR for when Ishamael flies/floats:<br /><br />&quot;Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.<br /> Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes.&quot;


created: 2002-03-17 10:21:39
subject: <b>An unnecessary theory.</b>
body:
&lt;quote&gt;mrFroggy:<br />The DO made Fain his hound, Fain was able to close his eyes and point directly to Rand and to a lesser degree the other two boys. Now that the DO has lost control of Fain whats to stop him from making more hounds out of his other black followers. I think that this is more likely then homing devices.<br /> <br />Three In A Boat:  <br />that doesn't work MrFroggy, if it was so then the Forsaken wouldn't have been wondering where Rand was, they'd know. &lt;/quote&gt;<br /><br /> <br />MrFroggy, did you notice how much Fain enjoyed being linked to Rand? The idea was that he would hate Rand so much for it that he would kill him. Fain killed an innkeeper whose inn had a Waygate in the cellar, just out of spite that the innkeeper had freedom to go where he chose and Fain could not but go on towards Rand through the Waygate. Fain was just a peddlar, a nobody: would the DO do that to one of his Chosen unless they'd done something <i>really</i> bad?<br /><br />Aside - homing devices aren't really necessary when the DO has copious numbers of ravens, rats, probably cockroaches, and so forth at his disposal for spying. Rats even get into palaces, you know. Roaches would be even better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 03:09:28
subject: <b>What About The Wound?</b>
body:
Although the coins certainly lead the reader to believe that &quot;homing devices&quot; do in fact exist, I think a combination of different factors makes more sense.  Two of these things have already been mentioned:<br /><br />1.)  Rand is strongly ta'veren, and, well, weird things happen to ta'vern, like your untrustworthy Black Tower leader showing up at an opportune time to save you from the White Tower.<br /><br />and<br /><br />2.) An inverted ward placed around a room seems much more likely.  I do believe that the Dragon Sceptre is Power-wrought, even if it only serves the simple purpose of a spear in the hands of a Seanchan soldier, but it isn't necessarily a &quot;homing device.&quot;<br /><br />The third thing is Rand's wound in his side.  Moiraine, among others, commented often that some lingering evil (perhaps a strange True Power residue?) remained that prevented the wound from healing fulling.  It seems much more likely a homing device to me because of its nature and the fact that Rand carries THAT with him 24/7.<br /><br />Also, it is possible that ANY object made with the One Power could be detected WITH the One Power.  Tam's sword, the Dragon Sceptre, Mat's spear, Fain's Dagger all angreals and sa'angreals and possibly even the Crown of Swords would qualify.<br /><br />I doubt specific homing devices could be found, much less used.  Moiraine might have had some because they'd been tucked away in the Tower for the Creator knows how long.  I also think somewhere it is said that Elayne is the first person in millenia who could design and manufacture new ter'angreals and such.  Not even the Forsaken knew how to do it.  Isn't that right?  If so, then it's even less likely a Forsaken could get his/her hands on one.<br /><br />There are some good counter-theories floating around there.  Good job, people.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-18 08:55:55
subject: <b>I still</b>
body:
argue that anything naturally focusing in on Rand himself rather than something he has just isn't possible as the Forsaken would have known where Rand was when they couldn't find him and clearly they didn't.<br /><br />As to those coins, they aren't in themselves homing devices. It was what Moiraine did to them with the power that made them that way as long as the person she gave them too held it. If you notice, when she gives Mat and Rand their coins, she cups their hands within hers, but she does not do the same thing for...whatever his name is, begins with E, high pitched voice which ends up low pitched. She also says there is a bond between them, so she has doen something with the power, something similar to a warder bond (but much milder) in that she can locate them if they hold the coin. However, I think it's just as likely that she could have used a kitchen sink as a coin if she wanted, but the coins would fit and they shouldn't question them. On a side point I think she also used a mild form of compulsion (naughty Moiraine! Though it's not surprising, she does balefire later on too) which is meant to make them refuse to give the coins away and does at first, but no doubt their ta'vereness allowed them to overcome it.


created: 2002-03-18 16:29:22
subject: <b>Another answer.</b>
body:
&quot;Hmm... Do you think that Dashiva helped keep Rand alive in Cairhienen? Do you think that Dashiva purposely sabotaged Demandred's order to have Rand killed there?&quot;<br /><br />I don't know - possibly.  Maybe the room was warded to warn Dashiva of Rand's departure and he made sure to launch the attack only when Rand left.  I don't remember a POV of Osan'gar thinking that he blundered on this mission, but I might forget something. I remember he flinched when Demandred scorned the Asha'man and the fact they were discovered, but Osan'gar might just feel uncomfortable to be the focus of Dem's fury. Quite understandable if Moridin forces him to betray Demandred - it's a dangerous game Aginor is forced to play. He is wary of Demandred but it's Moridin that terrifies him &quot;since the beginning&quot;.  Dashiva's POV during the SL battle let believe he never tried to kill Rand before, I think (I'm not sure).<br /><br />&quot;Now that Dashiva is dead, Demandred will have some more flexibility in maneuvering his Asha'man proxies.&quot;<br /><br />Some, but not that much. A side effect of his death for Moridin is that Demandred might make a mistake if he now thinks himself free of &quot;spies&quot;. Moridin has also taken to order the Asha'man directly in WH, in the backs of both Dem and Osan'gar, btw - and giving them subtely different orders, focussed on recuperating anything in Rand's possession, killing him only if necessary.  That sound a lot to me like an insurance policy : Moridin didn't want Demandred or any of the Chosen who could attack Rand to get the CK and Callandor, and by using the same people Dem sent, Moridin stalled him. That's why he told the Chosen that Rand had the CK I think. He wanted to check if any of them would move to get their hands on them, and he wanted the Chosen to be extremely reluctant of attacking Rand in person. Similarly, he ordered Isam to take care of Fain - at least so he told the Chosen, it's hard to take Moridin's words at face value and Isam's actions in WH are extremely confusing (IMO, Lanfear ordered Isam at least once. I'm pretty sure she asked him to rescue Fain from the prison in GH. Thus the &quot;dark prophecy&quot; that mentions him and mentions her victory over Rand. A better hand than a Trollocs', likely a Fade's? Hmm... rather Isam's hand, I think. The butchery is very much like him, in any case, and so is the apparition from nowhere in Fain's cell. Isam's comment that except the Chosen only a few men know how to reach him but would not dare order him and they can't channel makes me think Padan Fain was one of them, and that's why he recognized him. Lanfear was also the one with the best motive to kill the Gray Man who was after the girls she was gearing toward Tear, and probably the one with the best motives to want Isam to keep Fain busy in the Two Rivers. In fact, I highly suspects that Lanfear planted the rumors about the TR in Tear in the first place, to send Perrin and Mat away. Those rumors were everywhere suddenly and travelled *really* fast. Mesaana probably ordered Isam to kill the BA sisters in Tear, though.)    <br /><br />Note that Moridin also subtely lied to the Chosen about the cleansing of Saidin and the CK - he makes a Cairhienin seem blatantly obvious. He made them believe that Cyndane told him about the CK and the fact Rand had find a woman strong enough to use it and what he intended to do with it. In the final chapter, Cyndane's POV reveals that she thinks something like &quot;so, it was all true, and Rand has truly found a woman strong enough to use it with him, he betrayed me etc.&quot;. We were too busy with the final revelation she is Lanfear to note that what she says didn't match what she told the others earlier... She knew about the CK from Rhuidean, but that's all! Moridin made all the others believe that Cyndane knew more and tells him everything... <br /><br />Now that raise the interesting question : why Moridin wanted the Chosen to believe the information came from Cyndane?  For one, he identified Cyndane as his creature, completely. None of the others will ever trust her. He possibly protected his sources, which in this case were very likely Moghedien for the strength, the Caemlyn cronies for the disappearance of Nynaeve and Osan'gar who possibly told him about saidin. <br /><br />But it also really sounds like Moridin seeked not to be even remotely associated with Rand's plan in the Chosen' minds - he just learned about it and now he wants them to stop him, bla, bla, bla.  If that were so important, why not go there himself - he's the only one undetectable by Rand and presumably he's the only one alive who can channel without detection in Far Madding! He sure didn't put much efforts to stop Rand, just sending a bunch of Asha'man without Dashiva. And he didn't show up to stop Rand in the last chapter, when once again the True Power gave him a huge advantage over the others. Did Moridin or the DO really care to stop the cleansing of saidin?  That sure doesn't sound like it.  It sounds like Moridin playing sha'ra again, he sent all his pieces toward the Fisher, he forced them all to go. Note that this sha'ra strategy is one Moridin knows very well to cause bloodbaths.  Let's see who is loyal and courageous enough to go in the Lion's den and may the strong survive and the weak perish?? (and let's keep the two Chosen who are doing something worthy (Mes and Sem) out of it??) Big bonus, Moridin can blame them all for their failure to stop Rand and increase his authority accordingly.<br /><br />From the other side Moridin almost helped Rand or certainly didn't do much to hinder him, and certainly kept his hands off him. The game only starts when someone has the Fisher, and sometimes the best strategy is to let the other side handle the Fisher until the moment when you can seize him and make the last move to win the game. Demandred figured out late how Rand was to cleanse saidin. Moridin, OTOH, most likely knew all along - it was done according to philosophical principles and in doubt, he could ask the DO if what Rand planned was truly dangerous.  But was Harid Fel, the philosopher, really going...hmm... Fishing?? Fishing, philosophy, Lord Barthanes' palace...  it proves nothing, but it seems like a good way for RJ to point us to Ishamael. I don't think it's impossible that Moridin used Fel to confirm to Rand that he was on the right track to cleanse saidin, then he erased all traces of his deed by having Fel killed by a shadownspawn belonging to someone else.  Of course, killing Fel was the best way to convince Rand that he was on the right track and that the Shadow didn't want him to do that. As we know, there's no better way to make the Fisher move, as Sorilea and a few others have also found out.  Another clue might be Elza, the BA who swore fealty to Rand.  Why does she says in Shadar Logoth that especially at this moment she is convinced that Rand much reach Tairmon Gaidon? Is that solely the result of Verin's Compulsion or Moridin interfered through her dreams? For a few reasons, I think it's &quot;Baa'lzamon&quot;, the DO himself as far as she is concerned, who ordered her to stay right where she is and to serve Rand. <br /><br />&quot;I also think that Demandred might have Rand's little man angreal (thanks to 3 in a boat. I will write up a more ellaborate theory about this later).&quot;<br /><br />Is it Demandred, or it's Mazrim Taim who keeps it hidden as an insurance policy - caught as he is between a few Chosen? It's possible that Dem has it, but there's nothing in his POV's that clues us that he has it.  If I were Demandred, I certainly would have brought it with me to Shadar Logoth, notably.  It's a bit strange that he did not think of his own rather powerful an'greal when he noticed that Graendal had one.<br /><br />&quot;Demandred is the last free-standing male channeler left- and now that saidin is cleansed, he will some more liberty.&quot;<br /><br />In the WH meeting, Moridin told the Chosen that the DO was sure they were all loyal.... for the time being (it's one of my clues that the &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; was partly a test for the Chosen lead by Moridin/SH and that only Sammael failed).  Graendal is the one to point out that the male channelers will all be in a precarious position if saidin is cleansed, an opinion Moridin makes sure to reinforce by his comment about the DO being sure of their loyalty... for now. Note that Graendal also knew about the CK in advance, a fact Demandred notices. And we know she was there before all the others and the setting she chose for the room is one she hates, another thing that Demandred wondered about.   Now, would Graendal be clumsy enough to flaunts her knowledge of the CK in front of the hyper-dangerous Moridin or was she simply ordered by Moridin to say that, and to put on her little show about the CK that basically blamed Demandred in front of the others for being uncautious? Moridin certainly enters the room at the most interesting moment in that scene. Moridin also makes sure to point out the absence of Mesaana and the fact that he would have wanted her there, unsettling Demandred who start to worry that she could have broken their alliance. But was is the truth? Mesaana and Semirhage both were very busy and Moridin knew that - the imminent departure of Egwene's army he knew from Halima, notably. Did Moridin rather asked Mesaana and Semirhage *not* to come, precisely because he is trying to separate the little trio or has already done it?  What better way to achieve it than make Demandred suspicious of his two allies and weaken his position at the meeting by their absence? For sure, Moridin did not seemed to have bothered ordering Mesaana, nor Semirhage, to go to Shadar Logoth, for all his claims that he wanted Mesaana at that meeting.  My guess is that Moridin doesn't trust Demandred at this point, he sees him as his only potential adversary at this point. Moridin must have learned that Demandred tried to make himself the leader after his death.  IMO, Demandred made one mistake : he obeyed the DO's LOC orders very well, but he bettered them by throwing some orders of his own in the mix and by keeping Sammael out of it, all to make himself Nae'blis. He must have pleased the DO to boast about it in front of him, but I'd bet he made the Naeblis wary...<br /><br />Mesaana remarked in that chapter that the plan was totally like Demandred... strange a bit that she says that of the DO's plan, doesn't it? Thinking of where Sem and Mes were hidden and about the orders, Demandred also wondered how much the DO knew and since when. It's either a hint that Demandred was fooling the others by adding to the DO's orders &quot;oh, isn't it convenient that he asks this, bla bla bla&quot;, or that there's really something a bit too &quot;convenient&quot; in the orders themselves, like for instance the DO ordered something that necessitated to have been planned a long time ago but that until now Demandred had not realized that they were heading toward that goal, and he believes that if was Ishamael's plan anyway, not the DO's. I take that as a hint that Ishamael and the DO share a plan for centuries and that the other Chosen are merely instruments in that plan - Ishamael always claimed to the Chosen to want one thing and in fact worked to gain another, with the DO's blessing.  I'd bet this great plan wouldn't please the Chosen, not at all, and it's probably crucial that they don't discover what it is.<br /><br />&quot;I think it is also interesting to note that neither Mesaana nor Semmy appeared at Moridin's latest meeting- neither of these women appear to be under Moridin's same spectre of influence yet.&quot;<br /><br />Apparently. Or they have joined Moridin's side already but are ordered not to let Demandred know. Mesaana and Semirhage worked closely with Ishamael initially, that much we can be sure of.  IMO, Mesaana may have got enough incentives to switch sides already. Halima controls the rebel Amyrlin, Ishamael knows everything there is to know about the BA and has an history of ordering them from TAR. Mesaana is probably clever enough to understand that she has no choice but fall in line behind Ishamael reborn.  Semirhage I'm less sure of, but look at the pattern : Moghedien placed Liandrin with Amadician DF merchants, Moghedien is captured by Moridin and forced to tell everything she knows, Liandrin suddenly pops up, still punished, as servant to Ishamael's agent Lady Suroth who in turn has access to Tuon. Suroth doesn't seem to respect or fear Anath the least bit, so she likely doesn't know who she is. Is Liandrin in charge of spying on Anath for Moghedien or was she placed there as a secret liaison agent between Semirhage and Moridin (communications through her dreams instead risking meetings in TAR between Sem and Moridin)?. <br /><br />Presumably, Tuon doesn't do much without Semirhage's consent or knowledge. There sure is something fishy about the fact that Tuon ended up with Mat, and the fact that she was the one who ordered Suroth out of town with Tylin. It's all very very convenient - but I have no clue what really happened in Ebou Dar. Maybe Tuon really did it all in Anath's back because she was interested in Mat or Mat's escape, it's really RAFO. But when Mat started to suspect Tuon was stalking him, he notices that Anath was sometimes with her.<br /><br />But ultimately, let's think in terms of the Great Game of Houses for a minute :<br /><br />- Demandred doesn't trust Graendal because of a few things in WH : her comments about the CK, her angreal, her comments about Saidin.<br />- Cyndane and Moghedien are very established to the Chosen as Moridin's creatures. They have no allies.<br />- Osang'ar and Arang'ar are almost full proof because of the whole device that introduced them back : the DO named you, orders you, obey SH, Moridin is Naeb'lis - obey him.<br />- Mesaana and Semirhage are kept away from Demandred and he is becoming suspicious because of that.<br /><br />So basically Moridin, before revealing that Rand had the Choedan Kal, made sure that no pair of Chosen would collaborate to use them.  Demandred is the only one who could have dared, but Moridin ordered the men Demandred sent after Rand to bring anything they found to *him*.  Very clever.<br /><br /><br />&quot;I fully expect a return of Sammael, and a Sammael that is mindtrapped by Moridin. Plainly, Moridin needs good generals to marshall his armies, and who better than Sammael?&quot;<br /><br />If Demandred can't be tamed, then a mind-trapped Sammael sure would be convenient.  But I wonder if Sammael's soul is still accessible to the DO or if it's Mashadar that got it.<br /><br />&quot;Do you realize that Moridin's faction has all the dreamwalkers (if you don't count those who enter dreamworld in the flash).&quot;<br /><br />Interesting, especially since important actions could happen in TAR - Moiraine's rescue, Isam vs. Perrin, Egwene, the Wise Ones.  And we still have no clue why Verin sent Egwene there in the first place and what the notes of Corianin Nedeal contained (her spying on the summons of Ba'alzamon to the Black Ajah, IMHO. For some RAFO reason she couldn't trust anyone in the Tower so she decided to hide her notes instead of revealing what she learned. And she was very secretive about TAR and the terangreal that helped to go there so that only a full dreamer would go back to TAR).<br /><br />&quot;This faction probably also has the services of Isam&quot;<br /><br />Since the DO supposedly can order Isam directly (but I highly suspects Isam's DO is good old Ba'alzamon again), it's very likely that he will be instructed to obey the Nae'blis only, eventually. It's very interesting to note that his latest &quot;boss&quot; wanted to hide his identity from him, though - and why was Isam so sure he was male.  Can he sense saidin/saidar or is it just the male disguise that made him think that? I think Moridin ordered Isam in WH, but it's hard to totally rule out that Demandred was acting in Moridin's back too, however dangerous it would be to use Isam for that, especially since he knows that Moridin is currently dealing with him re: Fain.<br /><br />&quot;and maybe a gholam as well.&quot;<br /><br />Yup.  I was thinking about the gholam, the fact that it recognized the itch of the True Power, the fact that Graendal stumbled into one and also found streith in a stasis box, about all the AOL artefacts that Sammael found including the cruel game.  About the questions he asked whether other Chosen found stasis boxes and the silence they kept, about the fact that Moridin knew he could hear something interesting if he let a third callbox open... and about the timing of it all. <br /><br />Graendal concluded that Sammael found a stasis box that belonged to a friend of the Dark of the AOL but then, she didn't know about the gholam. Who but a Chosen would have a gholam, let alone be able to control it? I conclude that Sammael and some of the others paid a little visit to that Shayol Ghul palace after Moridin's death and that Sammael found and stole Ishy's gholam and many objects, perhaps after Graendal first met Ishy's gholam and fled. That would explain Barthane's previous gholam-like murder. It will be very interesting to discover how a gholam is controlled, the key is there.  It's possible that only the True Power can be used for that (explaining Graendal's comment that only a madman would have created such a thing), or perhaps the male gholam can't be controlled by female channelers and the female ones by males. Strange a bit that &quot;Anath&quot; does nothing in any case, reports about the &quot;Vampire of Ebou Dar&quot; reaching Tuon must have ring a bell.<br /><br />&quot;Semirhage is very lethal, and has access to da'mane.&quot;<br /><br />And with Mesaana's help, she can easily replace the sul'dam by Black Ajah dreadlords overnight. And no matter what the Crystal Throne knows at this point, Semirhage must know very well that all the suld'am can learn to channel... And we've not been told over and over again that this news could shatter the Empire for nothing, I think...<br /><br />&quot;We have not really seen much of Mesaana's powers yet, but Mesaana does have access to most of the BA.&quot; <br /><br />Except that Moridin very likely can supersede any of her orders as Ba'alzamon, and the BA are used to that - that's how they were ordered before Mesaana arrived. And I'm sure Moridin did not forget a single BA name in two years. Moridin has the advantage of being able to reach in dreams the sisters away from the Tower (as of now, I think Mesaana is the only Forsaken alive we've never ever seen in TAR yet). Mesaana, OTOH, has the head BA in her pocket for now.     <br /><br />&quot;I would LOVE to see such a showdown.&quot;<br /><br />Me too.  I fear Demandred might feel a little bit lonely when this happen, though!<br /><br />&quot;I also predict that Sammael and possibly Asmodean will make their returns in the next book. RJ did give us that whole hint about Sammael being dead. Is that so that it will be easier but us to swallow that fact that he will be back alive in CoT?&quot;<br /><br />I doubt Asmodean will be brought back but I wish it, if only to read Graendal's reaction scene when comes face to face with him! I think Moridin might also rise a few people to &quot;lower&quot; Chosen status under his total control before the end, Alviarin and Mazrim Taim are two of my favorite candidates. Somehow I expect soon enough many Chosen will be &quot;grounded&quot; as governors of Moridin's newly conquered lands. It's gonna be ugly when the Blight awakes (very good position for a mind-trapped Sammy to make a comeback, at the head of Moridin's shadownspawn armies invading the Borderlands during the White Tower/Black Tower conflicts, and very convenient moment to do it while the Seanchan are moving toward Illian and the WT/BT channelers have their hands full. Thanks to Graendal's little scheme before SH's visit, there's also some messy rumors about Arad Doman that have reached Far Madding in WH, but I can't remember what it was, war with Saldaea or something like that?).


created: 2002-03-18 17:51:44
subject: <b>The Wound</b>
body:
&quot;The third thing is Rand's wound in his side. Moiraine, among others, commented often that some lingering evil (perhaps a strange True Power residue?) remained that prevented the wound from healing fulling.&quot;<br /><br />There is most likely the taint involved, Rand's solution to cleanse saidin in Shadar Logoth came from the way his two wounds repelled one another.  Interestingly enough, the wounds were not altered by the cleansing or the destruction of SL. I have a sketchy theory that the wound was inflicted by Ishamael for a precise purpose and that's why he doesn't want Rand to die before TG, if that can be avoided.  Maybe the DO intends to use Rand or someone else powerful as a physically vessel, ideally Rand because he's the most powerful of them all, the wound might be his entry to Rand's body. I guess His powers might be limited when he jumps into the pattern, a bit like Mashadar/Mordeth that can do many things but seems more and more concretely powerful now that he uses Fain. Rand would have to let the DO jump into the pattern, because only this way can he be defeated, by killing Rand and sheding the tainted blood of the wound.  <br /><br /><br />&quot;Moiraine might have had some because they'd been tucked away in the Tower for the Creator knows how long.&quot;<br /><br />Hmmm... I'm with Three in a Boat on that, Moiraine &quot;bonded&quot; the TV coins somehow, they were ter'angreal IMO.  In fact, she probably mildly bonded the boys through the coins, using the coins as a contact. Remove the contact, the bond is cut - a bit like an electrical contact.<br /><br />&quot;Not even the Forsaken knew how to do it. Isn't that right?&quot;<br /><br />Actually, we still have no proof about ter'angreal, but it's highly unlikely they have the means to make angreals, even if the scientists among them may know the theory behind their making. I guess most of them probably have the theorical knowledge to make basic ter'angreal but nothing useful, so they don't bother. Maybe those require saidin (now tainted) or big rings of channelers to be made, or else it's a Talent that they don't have. It's one thing to know roughly how a clock, a lightbulb or a gun work (let alone a homing device), it's another to make one that works. I guess that even if it's a Talent at the root, each new kind of ter'angreal required special research and knowledge to create. It seems to me that Elayne just opened one clock and copied it, and not flawlessly at that. She has yet to create something of her own. <br />


created: 2002-03-18 18:05:50
subject: <b>The Importance of Being Ishy</b>
body:
This is the answer to Matrimony's question &quot;Why is Ishamael so important?&quot;<br />Mostly what I did was synthesize Dom's own words to answer the question he himself hinted at.<br /><br /><br />First, let me quote Dom:<br />&quot;The problem around FoH was that the Chosen were almost all having their little plan on the side... I don't think any is a true &quot;traitor&quot;, but they have peculiar ideas of what would please the DO.&quot;<br /><br />Also Dom --- &quot;Ishamael and the DO share a plan for centuries and that the other Chosen are merely instruments in that plan - Ishamael always [worked] with the DO's blessing.&quot;<br /><br />Ok, now the reason Ishamael is so important is that he has no &quot;little plans on the side&quot;, his goals coincide perfectly with the DO. The other Forsaken have petty desires to get revenge on &quot;Lews Therin&quot; ( Demandred &amp; Sammael) or have obsessions with pain/pleasure ( Semherige &amp; Grandael). Ishamael has no such problems. He is the only one of the Chosen that truely understands the DO's goals. Ishy wrote essays and entire books about the subject in the AoL after he went over to the Shadow.<br /> <br /><br />Matrimony --- &quot;Moridin definitely is moving around agents. I think to what purpose, however, is a strictly RAFO matter.&quot;<br /><br />Dom --- &quot;As always! But there's definitely a pattern since ACoS : he's getting more and more control over the Chosen from book to book.&quot;<br /><br />Two words: Tarmon Gaidon. Moridin know what the DO wants, &quot;FREEDOM!&quot; All the other Chosen tend to be shortsighted, only looking for their own personal gain. Moridin does nothing for personal gain. In the same way Rand is uniting the squabbling nations of the world before the Last Battle, Ishy is focused on uniting the Chosen for TG, suppressing their internal backbiting so that they can stand against the common foe. Most of the Forsaken are just like the foolish nobles that Rand constantly has to deal with. In my opinion, the final rounds of The Great Game will be played in the Last Battle!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 19:48:46
subject: <b>Wow!!!</b>
body:
Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the (very clever) theory itself, you have certainly stirred up the most interesting conversation in ages.<br /><br />Building on what mad Ashaman says:    Rand &amp; Moridin/Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai are equals because they are altruistic &amp; self sacrificing.  Rand is prepared to sacrifice his life (as he believes will happen) to defeat the DO.  Moridin (IMO) also knows he will die if the DO's plan of destroying the pattern is achieved.  They are prepared for this because each thinks he is doing the right thing.


created: 2002-03-18 22:04:29
subject: <b>More about Moridin</b>
body:
<br /><br /> &quot;Isam's actions in WH are extremely confusing&quot;<br /><br />As far as I recall, Isam did not play a very large role in WH.  Most of what we saw was Isam killing too older people.  My WH is not as strong as the rest of my wot knowledge, but I think he said that he wished he had killed his nephew (Rand).<br />It is confusing to think of who he might have killed, however.<br /><br />&quot; (IMO, Lanfear ordered Isam at least once. I'm pretty sure she asked him to rescue Fain from the prison in GH. Thus the &quot;dark prophecy&quot; that mentions him and mentions her victory over Rand. A better hand than a Trollocs', likely a Fade's? Hmm... rather Isam's hand, I think. The butchery is very much like him, in any case, and so is the apparition from nowhere in Fain's cell. &quot;<br /><br />Makes total sense-  You should write up a theory on this point alone- I have seen no one else suggest this yet, but it is very logical.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;From the other side Moridin almost helped Rand or certainly didn't do much to hinder him, and certainly kept his hands off him.&quot;<br /><br />Moridin, has aided Rand on at least one occasion (with Sammael), and probably several more.  We know that Moridin is helping keep Rand alive by eliminating those who mean to kill Rand (Sammael, Fain, Demandred, ect.).  <br /><br />I have 2 theories in waiting to be posted speculating that Moridin is not only helping Rand, but that he is also helping those closest to Rand.  Rand is not a one-man show, and if Moridin means to manipulate the fisher and allow the opposing side to hold until the right moment, then he needs to allow several of Rand's allies to stay in power (if in a manipulated fashion).<br /><br />This includes Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.  Hopefully these theories get posted (it seems quite difficult these days to get a theory posted- even if it is good), cause I think they will stir interesting blackboard debate.<br /> <br />Moridin could easily go and destroy/assasinate all Rand's allies, but the timing is not yet stragecally correct on the sharah board.  My basic point is that 'Letting the LoC rule' involves not just letting Rand live, but also letting his whole adminstration and teamates live.  <br /><br /><br /><br />&quot; The game only starts when someone has the Fisher, and sometimes the best strategy is to let the other side handle the Fisher until the moment when you can seize him and make the last move to win the game.&quot;<br /><br />True, true.  There are unseen plans and things we don't know about yet that are preventing Moridin from wiping out Rand right now.  <br /> <br /><br />&quot; But was Harid Fel, the philosopher, really going...hmm... Fishing?? Fishing, philosophy, Lord Barthanes' palace... it proves nothing, but it seems like a good way for RJ to point us to Ishamael. I don't think it's impossible that Moridin used Fel to confirm to Rand that he was on the right track to cleanse saidin, then he erased all traces of his deed by having Fel killed by a shadownspawn belonging to someone else.&quot;<br /><br />This is a good point.  I especially like your analogy between Fel 'fishing' and the 'fisher' on the sharah board.  This could be a subtle element of Moridin's humor.  <br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Presumably, Tuon doesn't do much without Semirhage's consent or knowledge. There sure is something fishy about the fact that Tuon ended up with Mat, and the fact that she was the one who ordered Suroth out of town with Tylin. It's all very very convenient - but I have no clue what really happened in Ebou Dar. Maybe Tuon really did it all in Anath's back because she was interested in Mat or Mat's escape, it's really RAFO. But when Mat started to suspect Tuon was stalking him, he notices that Anath was sometimes with her.&quot;<br /><br />Yes- Semirhage undoubtedly knows who Mat is.  Should lead into something interesting in the next book.  Mat will get strung to yet another women, and one that happens to be a forsaken this time.  I'm sure RJ will somehow find a way to make it suspenseful, humorous, dramatic, adventurous, and possibly tragic at the same time.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;- Mesaana and Semirhage are kept away from Demandred and he is becoming suspicious because of that.&quot;<br /><br />This is probably true.  But Mesaana and Semirhage will still have to make a choice.  Mesaana was the one who was afraid of a higher plan.  Mesaana probably knows enough of Ishmael from the AoL to realize some of what he is after, and may join Demmy just because she doesn't want to be one of Moridin's pawns.  The same might also be true with Semirhage.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Let's look into the question of:  Who is Ishmael??<br /><br />I think it goes very deep.  Recall all Ishmaels ramblings about dueling with Rand countless time in different ages.<br />I think that Ishmael is intimately died with the DO in ways that we do not know yet.<br />I think Ishmael may even be the anti-dragon, or the DO's protagonist, in the same way that Rand is the Creator's protagonist.  <br />It makes sense that Ishmael and Rand are each others equals, especially in a mythological perspective.  RJ's series is about balance, and for the Creator to use a powerful soul like the Dragon, it probably means that the DO has a soul that is also just as powerful.<br />It's the same kind of good vs. evil story that runs through almost all stories.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 02:05:21
subject: <b>I was looking...</b>
body:
for a scene in one of the books I thought I remembered where Sammael and Greandal had just talked to Sevanna and were having a little chat. I thought I remembered Moridin watching them and then Shadar Haran watching everything. But I didn't find it, if it even exsists, but what I did find was the scene where Shadar Haran was watching Sammy and says he has been to far from Shayol Ghul. It then says he turns to find the edge of shadow that it needed, persumably to travel Myrdraal like. In an earlier scene &quot;The Watcher&quot;, Moridin, is also spying on Sammy and Greandal, but when he leaves he rips a TP hole. If they are one in the same, why travel to different ways? <br /><br />Another interesting tidbit from this scene, located at the end of &quot;Patterns within Patterns&quot; in aCoS, is this. &quot;[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true.&quot; Now, if the DO and Moridin have this elaborate plan to create chaos and bring all the chosen to heel you would think Moridin would know if the DO all but promised Sammael the Nae'Blisship, you'd think it would be part of the plan. <br /><br />Also, wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier for Moridin if he just mind trapped them all? That way, he has access to all the proxies, darkfriends, groups, plans and whatnot, without all this really complex Daes Damar (spelling) craziness. And its not like it would be difficult at all either, just do like they did to Moggy, summon them to SG, have Shadar Haran do his thing and walla, a nice, new, shiny strokable ornament around Ishy's neck. Its not like they can do a better job at spreading Chaos and such free, Ishy can give them all a certain amount of autonomy in their work. He can just set a goal and have them work for it, whichever way they want, he doesn't need to watch over their shoulders 24/7. <br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I dig everything you guys have come up with, (though I strongly doubt Shadar Haran is the same as Moridin) and I compliment you on all the thought and Brains put into this whole thing, I thought for a few minutes on what Moridin meant by that whole Sha'ra POV, but I never connected things like you have. I even think its mostly true, though it would save ishy a hellofalot of effort if he just mindtrapped the lot of them. He's had 3000 years to come up with this master plan, he's probably so caught up in his own cleverness he can't see the easy way. I do that often. <br />


created: 2002-03-19 08:58:42
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
&quot;[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true.&quot;<br /><br />I don't know if you've quoted that exactly (obviously you put the ... and brackets in...heh, and mispelled Graendal though I doubt that was delibrate <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />), but if you did Moridin could well be talking about the truce with Lews Therin.<br /><br />You know this is what I want from wotmania discussions. It doesn't work in chat because everything moves too quickly, it doesn't work on the message board because the topic's disappeared in 2 days, so the only place left is the theory post blackboard...unfortunately even that doesn't have a section where it tells you when a blackboard is updated.<br /><br />Anyway, I agree with you Dom, Moridin is pulling all the strings here. However, some things you've mentioned are no doubt just what they seem to be, Fel for example.<br /><br />Oh and for the person who said that Moridin and Rand are equal because they both expect to sacrifice themselves for their cause...I don't know if Moridin will die or even expects to, but even if he did he wouldn't have any worry, he can just be bought back to life.<br /><br />I definitly don't think the DO will enter anyone's body as a vessel. Firstly it would just be so lame, Jordan wouldn't do it, secondly if he was going to enter the pattern why would he name someone the Great Lord's Regent on Earth? (There you go &quot;WoT is Earth&quot; fans, there's something for you to drool over.)


created: 2002-03-19 14:24:17
subject: <b>Random Comments</b>
body:
Matrimony --- &quot;My WH is not as strong as the rest of my wot knowledge, but I think he said that he wished he had killed his nephew (Rand).&quot;<br /><br />Slayer as Luc is Rand's uncle. Slayer as Isam is Lan's uncle. At the time, Slayer was Isam so the reference to his nephew was a reference to Lan, not Rand. ( Confused yet? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ). If you re-read that scene, you will notice that the people Slayer killed resemble Lan and Nyaneve.<br /><br /><br />Bastion ---&quot;[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true.&quot;<br />Three in a Boat ---&quot;Moridin could well be talking about the truce with Lews Therin.&quot;<br /><br />Moridin <b> was </b> talking about Sammael's claim of a treaty with Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 17:27:54
subject: <b>Oops! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
My mistake, I just re-read the scene myself and Slayer was <b>Luc</b> at the time, so he was refering to Rand. And the two people he killed were both old. What was I thinking?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 18:53:27
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Didn't I say that Slayer in WH was quite confusing! Moridin supposedly had him after Fain, yet he kills a couple who is closer in age to Lan and Nynaeve and seemed to believe he would kill his nephew... who is Rand (it's interesting that he knows about Tigraine's son, in any case - who the heck told him that??  The only one beside Rand who has all the necessary information and could puzzle it out is... Moiraine, presumably kept in a certain Tower around which Birgitte and Perrin happened to have seen Slayer).<br /><br />Anyway... later in the WH chapter Slayer thinks back on the pleasures of the murders he committed in Tear, noting on the side that in fact he was Isam and not Luc when he did it, but that was the same for him. So they share their sensations and memories...  Thus, he could think of both Lan and Rand as his nephews not matter if he's Luc or Isam, except for one thing : isn't Isam Lan's cousin, not his uncle?  I thought Isam's father was the younger brother of Lan's father.<br /><br />However, Slayer still has a second nephew : Galad Damodred.<br /><br />Also interesting in that chapter is Slayer's boss, who wanted to keep his identity secret. He didn't seem to worry a lot that Slayer &quot;failed&quot; as if he lied to him about his mission's real goal in the first place.  I'd have to read the chapter again, but doesn't the new assignment the Chosen gives to Slayer after this murder hints strongly that he is indeed Moridin and not another Chosen who could have wanted Rand to die (such as Dem)?<br /><br />The very reassuring part about that chapter was that RJ has obviously not forgotten about all the little unresolved mysteries from the early books like who sent this or that Gray Man and will spread elements of solution along the road.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-19 19:17:56
subject: <b>perhaps...</b>
body:
I should have started my earlier quote a line sooner. This is a direct quote, with no ... to make it shorter and no brakets. <br />&quot;The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Sammael to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. unless, of course, it was true.&quot;<br />In hindsight, it probably would've been easier for me just to quote it directly last night and not screw with the brackets and ...'s and all that. Mark it down as a case of me be blinded by my own supposed cleverness. When I quote it correctly it becomes very clear Moridin is talking about Sammael's claim to Nae'blis, NOT Sammael's claimed truce with Rand. Sorry to cause confusion. If you want to make sure I quoted correctly and see the context the quote is the second to last paragraph in the chapter called &quot;Patterns Within Patterns&quot; in aCoS.


created: 2002-03-19 19:32:10
subject: <b>urrrrrgh!!!!</b>
body:
curse, cuss sputter, sputter, curse!!!! I messed up again!!!! I should proof read these things before I hit the submit button. (More Curseing) replace &quot;What had brought Sammael to heel&quot; with &quot;What had brought Greandal to heel&quot;. Man, here I thought I had cleared up everthing only to find on more mistake. URRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!


created: 2002-03-19 20:35:13
subject: <b>Another way that Luc knows of Rand</b>
body:
&quot;The only one beside Rand who has all the necessary information and could puzzle it out is... Moiraine, presumably kept in a certain Tower around which Birgitte and Perrin happened to have seen Slayer).&quot;<br /><br />Moiraine could be his method, but there is another: himself.  Luc was the killer of Janduin, Rand's Aiel father.  Janduin was about to kill Luc until he recognized the strong ressemblence to Shaiel, his dead wife.  What was Luc doing fighting Janduin in the 1st place??  Was he trying to revenge the loss of his sister's life, who became a Maiden because of the Aiel influence?<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 21:03:53
subject: <b>Slayer and Lanfear</b>
body:
You&#8217;re right Dom, Isam&#8217;s PoV in WH <b>is</b> confusing. I did manage to find something that might be useful though<br /><br />Dom ---&quot;(IMO, Lanfear ordered Isam at least once. I'm pretty sure she asked him to rescue Fain from the prison in GH. Thus the &quot;dark prophecy&quot; that mentions him and mentions her victory over Rand. A better hand than a Trollocs', likely a Fade's? Hmm... rather Isam's hand, I think. The butchery is very much like him, in any case, and so is the apparition from nowhere in Fain's cell.&quot;<br /><br />I think Lanfear ordered Slayer more than once. WH gives us conformation from Slayer himself that he killed the two captured BA sisters. The important fact to consider is that the Black sisters were killed while the Stone was full of Trollocs, some of them sent by Lanfear to attack the other Trollocs. Isam killed the Black Sisters while the battle raged. Now, the only Chosen who could have known enough to make use of this distraction to send Isam were the one who sent the first Trollocs (I can&#8217;t remember who and can&#8217;t find the reference<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />) and Lanfear.<br /><br />The Chosen who sent the first Trollocs probably wouldn&#8217;t send Isam, if they wanted to kill the black sisters, they would have used some of the Trollocs already there and make it look like a random murder. Either that or they would kill the two after they had control of the Stone. It was obvious that the death of the BA sisters was not the point of the attack.<br /><br />Lanfear, however, is a prime suspect. She has probably ordered Isam before and she had the opportunity to call him in. You may note that I have no clue <i>why</i> Lanfear would order Isam to kill them, but why would any of the other Chosen?<br /><br /><br />To Matrimony:<br />You're right that Luc killed Janduin, but I don't think Luc knew or cared who Janduin was. Luc was probably just out hunting for anything to kill; wolves, people, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 07:48:29
subject: <b>Trollocs in Stone</b>
body:
Those shadowspawns were sended by Sammael and Semirhage. Reason why she sended those was direct order from DO (My source is her POV during early LoC).<br />I think that those 2 BA were killed bc they were failures. After all sometimes failure in service of Shadow is capital crime.


created: 2002-03-20 08:46:51
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
it can still be easily read as talkign about the truce with LTT.<br /><br />&quot;An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true.&quot;<br /><br />The unless could simply mean that claiming a truce with LTT is a risk, unless it's true, in which case it is hardly a risk at all and shouldn't be even compared to claiming to have been promised Nae'blis.


created: 2002-03-20 13:49:23
subject: <b>Thanks PTH</b>
body:
I thought Sammael &quot;sended&quot; the Trollocs, but I wasn't sure.<br />My point is that the initial attack and the killing of the two BA were not related. Lanfear and Be'lal used the BA to capture the girls (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve) and lure Rand to the Stone. Since the girls escaped, the BA failed, and Lanfear would want to punish the BA sisters who were stupid enough to get caught. Sammael and Semherage were no part of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 16:22:49
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
&quot;Moiraine could be his method, but there is another: himself. Luc was the killer of Janduin, Rand's Aiel father. Janduin was about to kill Luc until he recognized the strong ressemblence to Shaiel, his dead wife. What was Luc doing fighting Janduin in the 1st place?? Was he trying to revenge the loss of his sister's life, who became a Maiden because of the Aiel influence?&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure if I get it right but I remember the story that way : Gita Moroso foretold something about Luc and Tigraine. They were both studying at the Tower. She sent them separately in the Waste. We know that she told Tigraine the fate of the World depended on her becoming a Maiden. The substance of her foretelling about Luc we still have no clue about, but I suspect Luc died at Isam's hands eventually.  Unless Moroso told Luc that his sister was to give birth to the Dragon reborn - and given her other foretelling about the birth on Dragonmount and the fact Siuan, Moiraine etc. were not looking for an Aiel in New Spring I highly doubt that even Gita Moroso knew the end of it or at least told Luc or anyone else - then Luc probably learned about it from another source.  <br /><br />By the Wise Ones, Moiraine knows more than enough of the story to puzzle it out, but unless Slayer is the one who is keeping her prisonner in the Finn's worlds or has brought her from there to the Tower of Ghenjei (Ishy or the DO might not want her dead for RAFO reasons) I don't see why Moiraine would tell either Luc or Isam willingly about the Dragon, not after the Dark Prophecy (Isam looks just like Lan and she must know Luc personally, he is her brother-in-law). <br /><br />We know that Ishamael didn't know early on about Tigraine and Rand's birth because of the actions of the BA in New Spring, nor he knew in the EotW era because it's not really difficult to pick out Tigraine Mantear's son among Rand, Perrin and Mat.  Beside Ishamael, the Chosen probably don't know that Tigraine ever existed - they don't even seem to realize that Rand is half Aiel, at least none of them made a cynical remark about LTT being reborn as an Aiel, for all the despise they have for the so-called Aiel.<br /><br />Lady Dyelin seems to have figure it out, maybe others close to the Andor court too but then it must not be so obvious either since Morgase, Elaida etc. have not made the connection and Rand is said to look like Tigraine. In any case, it's not longer certain that Moridin doesn't know who Rand's parents were and he could have revealed it to Slayer when he assigned him his mission, for a twist. One wonders why Slayer refers to Min as &quot;the wench&quot;, though. It sounds like he knows Rand and his people already. <br /><br />Another person who might have figure out the connection between Rand and Tigraine is Verin.  She obviously figured out stuff from the Moroso era and she had clues about Luc Mantear being involved from the Dark Prophecy.  Actually, she could have recognized &quot;Lord Luc&quot; in the Two Rivers and kept quiet about it for her own reasons. She certainly found &quot;interesting&quot; that the Trollocs shouted ISAM! (like they shouted BA'ALZAMON! in the Trolloc Wars, something she studied closely).  Interestingly, now that Slayer seems to get closer to Rand, Verin who might have figured out Luc/Isam and have met Lord Luc is around Rand too.  Verin is definitely in great danger if Isam or Luc show up.<br /><br />It's also amazing to see all these connections/oppositions between Slayer and Moiraine. The Tower of Ghenjei, they're in-laws, Moiraine was bonded to Isam's cousin Lan, both were involved with Gita Moroso, Tigraine and Moiraine were students at the Tower together and for that matter Luc was training as warder too, aunt and uncle of the Dragon Reborn...  <br /><br />I remember now another interesting detail about that murder Slayer committed. He was using two poisonned daggers, that's strikingly similar to those AOL duel blades who gave their name to Osan'gar and Aran'gar. They were poisonned too.  I forgot to mention that earlier but that's yet another one of my clues that Moridin is playing sh'ra against the Chosen. That form of duel was not popular for long because both duellists usually died from the poison. Moridin put Osan'gar with Demandred's cronies supposedly to help and Aran'gar with the rebels AS supposedly to help Mesaana, but in truth Moridin's Gars were poisonned gifts. Dashiva sure proved as a poisonned gift for Demandred if controls Taim, Halima being in control of the Amyrlin who is coming to depose Mesaana's pawns sure could play the same role in book 10. <br /><br />&quot;I think Lanfear ordered Slayer more than once. WH gives us conformation from Slayer himself that he killed the two captured BA sisters. The important fact to consider is that the Black sisters were killed while the Stone was full of Trollocs, some of them sent by Lanfear to attack the other Trollocs.&quot;<br /><br />The DO might have ordered Slayer himself, but since I still believe that the DO gets all his information from people, shadowspawn etc. and that he plays on this like a master to leave the Chosen wonder what he really knows (ie : the Fades Sammael asked to attack Tear reported to the DO before leaving Shayol Ghul and the DO asked Semirhage to send another group to fight them, or else the DO is always aware of what the shadowspawn do anyway), I'd say it's rather a Chosen who ordered the BA killed. <br /><br />We can put some money on Mesaana who had the strongest motives : clean up her the mess after her failure of the operation and protecting the secrets the BA might reveal to Rand and co. etc.<br /><br />But it could still be Lanfear.  After all she works for the Shadow and as she was in the Stone she could have learned that two BA sisters were made prisonners and jumped to TAR to order Isam to execute them.  It would certainly help her explains why she was there at all if another Chosen saw her.  And Mesaana would be confused as to what happened to her sisters, in whose hands they are and what they could have revealed. She might wonder too if the DO is angry with her failure or something. Yup, that sounds like good old Lanfear all right. <br /><br /><br />I think it's also Lanfear who asked Slayer to kill the Gray Man in the Tower since she was the one who manipulated the girls to go to Tear in the first place.   I guess that's when the encounter with Lanfear Alviarin refered to occured. Lanfear questionned her about the orders given to the BA.<br /><br />That we know of, that leaves the Two Rivers second attack with Trollocs.  That could be Lanfear again. She knew that Fain was after Rand and had the motives to want him dead or at least kept away from her dear Lews Therin.  A Chosen involved with the Whitecloaks might also have wanted &quot;Ordeith&quot; dead.  Ishamael might also have ordered Isam to find and kill Fain before being killed by Rand. In fact, he is the most likely suspect since he speaks of that again in WH.<br /><br /> <br />&quot;The unless could simply mean that claiming a truce with LTT is a risk, unless it's true, in which case it is hardly a risk at all and shouldn't be even compared to claiming to have been promised Nae'blis.&quot;<br /><br />And I guess there is even a third way to read it, since Moridin is thinking and not speaking aloud. He didn't have to tell himself &quot;but I know that it's not true since I am the Nae'blis&quot;.  He could have been thinking that claiming to be Nae'blis was not a risk for him, but that after the truce this was a second strike against Sammael.  Notice that he was wondering if Graendal was or wasn't following the DO's orders and why : &quot;Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that.&quot; In other words, Moridin just got his reason for not killing Graendal or not putting her in a cou'souvra : she was not really betraying the DO's orders transmitted by Demandred, she was fooled by Sammael's claim that the DO gave him different orders and promised him Nae'blis.  In fact, Graendal wanted Sammael to kill Rand or get caught trying and get blamed - but Moridin got fooled about her true motives for not killing Sammael.  That's another proof that he was testing the Chosen's loyalty. <br /><br />&quot;Lanfear and Be'lal used the BA to capture the girls (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve) and lure Rand to the Stone. Since the girls escaped, the BA failed, and Lanfear would want to punish the BA sisters who were stupid enough to get caught.&quot;<br /><br />I thought Graendal said somewhere that Mesaana has been working with Be'lal on that one.  The 13 BA were there to trap and capture Rand when he took Callandor. Be'lal wanted Callandor, Mesaana would get Rand. When it failed Ishamael panicked and attacked Rand. <br /><br />It doesn't make much sense that the girls were to be used as bait by Lanfear, neither her nor Be'lal lift a finger to let Rand know about their presence! It was much easier for Lanfear to kidnap Nynaeve and Egwene herself in the Tower and deliver them to Be'lal if that was their mutual plan.  Lanfear lured the girls to Tear in secret to pester Be'lal and the Black Ajah, and she did it in Mesaana and Be'lal's backs.  Some other Chosen tried to stop them (and Rahvin tried to get Elayne for himself), but it didn't work.  <br />


created: 2002-03-20 19:31:18
subject: <b>I guess I need to add more</b>
body:
It seems I stil haven't cleared anything up with my last post of the quote, so I will add even more. This is the quote, &quot;The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. unless, of course, it was true.&quot; and here is the very next line, &quot;The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomarrow's.&quot; <br />So the whole thing together should read, &quot;The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomarrow's.&quot;<br />I really don't know what to say if this doesn't convince you he's talking about Sammael's claim to Nae'blis, 3 in a Boat.    <br />


created: 2002-03-20 19:44:49
subject: <b>&lt;reists changing Bastian's name to something similar&gt;</b>
body:
Well, you know, if you'd just given the entire quote in the first place I wouldn't have needed convincing.<br /><br />I'm pretty certain Moiraine isn't Rand's aunt. The lines connecting them are tenuous at best. Rand's mother was Tigraine and his father was Janduin. For Moiraine to be Rand's aunt she'd have to be sister to either of these...she isn't. I think (though please correct me if I'm wrong) that Moiraine was half-sister to Taringail, who was once married to Tigraine (and gave her Galad and would later give Morgase Elayne and Gawyn), yet he is no relation to Rand either.


created: 2002-03-20 19:52:24
subject: <b>It is more than just coincidence...</b>
body:
that Slayer killed Janduin.<br /><br />There is something deeper going on there- especially since Janduin was married to Tigraine.<br /><br />RJ does not use coincidences in the WoT.  <br /><br />Slayer is a fascinating character- he is actually one of my favorites in WoT.  <br /><br />RJ will reveal more about him-<br /><br />and we will learn what the story behind slayer.  <br /><br />But we cannot simply dismiss Slayer's association with Janduin, what really happened??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 20:59:50
subject: <b>I suspect</b>
body:
that Slayer will play a larger role in the next book, possibly to his death (if we can't kill Forsaken in even numbered books we'll have to settle for the closest thing!). My reason is that RJ obviously hasn't shown him entering the Tower of Genji for no reason and the next book seems likely to focus on the Finns quite heavily.<br /><br />I'm sure he'll die at some point, but the question is, who will kill him? There are 3 likely candidates, Perrin, Lan and Rand. If it wasn't for the relation of Luc/Isam to Rand/Lan I'd say Perrin for sure, Slayer likes to kill wolves and he almost seems his enemy like the gholam is Mat's. However, there's no way that Jordan won't have him meeting either Rand or Lan or possibly both at some point. My suspicions are with Lan, I doubt Rand would have any worries about striking down some uncle he's never seen before (besides, why would Rand have to worry about Slayer, he's clearly the stronger), whereas for Lan to discover he's not the Last of the Malkieri and then have to fight his cousin...that'd be difficult for him.<br /><br />Then again who'd have thought Lanfear would be killed by Moiraine. Perhaps someone totally suprising will finish him...Egwene say.<br /><br />Now that I mention that, isn't it about time one of Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Min...killed someone (human)? Ok, perhaps not Min, she's never going to be important in battles, but the others need toughening up for what's to come! Ok, I'm being harsh on Nynaeve too, she did try and kill Rahvin despite only wanting to Heal.


created: 2002-03-20 21:01:14
subject: <b>I just want to know...</b>
body:
Why bust Fain out of Fal Dara in the first place? They certainly didn't need a hound after that. They knew who and where Rand was, they even made a sorry attempt to kill him. The only thing I can figure is that Ishy wanted to lure Rand to Falme to fulfill some dark prohpesy, and try to turn him, as was is his plan even now, but that points more to Ishy ordering Slayer to make the break then Lanfear, and the writing on the wall was just a tastier bit of bait for Rand and a confusing twist for us. I supppose the DO could have ordered Lanfear to set the whole thing up. I'm just pointing out that Ishy had more reason to break out Fain then Lanfear did, I can't see any motive for Lanfear.


created: 2002-03-21 03:01:09
subject: <b>I hate to interrupt...</b>
body:
but if wotmania doesn't hire Dom and 3 in a Boat to write up the FAQ section, we'll all be missing out.


created: 2002-03-21 04:35:22
subject: <b>I believe there's reasons for all of these coincidences.</b>
body:
1) Asha'man attack on Sun Palace:  It's not hard to know that Rand is in his rooms... Everyone seems to always know if he's in town... there's numerous instances where Rand arrives in one palace or another, and before he even reaches his destination within, everyone seems to know.<br /><br />Also, you don't even mention some sort of inverted weave trap or trigger that would notify someone who had set it that Rand was near that throne in the sitting room.  Maybe him dropping the crown there triggered it?  Maybe they thought he was sitting in it because of that triggering?<br /><br />Also, his &quot;staring off into nothing&quot; could have been some sort of instinctive detection of that inverted weave... wondering what he was feeling... or it could have been something as innocent as him listening to LTT in his head.<br /><br />2) Remember that the Asha'man that went nuts down there with Min had tried to use the power to move the walls about to make &quot;a tower to protect her in&quot;... it's possible Taim felt that and pinpointed it.  (Lucky that the bad guys didn't I guess)...<br /><br />3) Taim mentioned to Perrin (I think) using gateways to travel quickly in hops of a few miles at a time to find where they were.  This is actually a better explaination than your own, because it explains the delay in finding him, but their sudden appearance.  Also, if Taim is Demandred... remember that Demandred was working with Sevanna at the time, and knew of the planned attack through her I believe... or at least was keeping an eye on her.  At the very least, he knew where they were through the Shaido.  Hell, even if he didn't leap about with gateways trying to find him (or if he did just to fake that he didn't know to the other Asha'man with him), he probably &quot;showed up just in time&quot; because he didn't know of the planned attack and needed to stop it because of his orders to &quot;let the lord of chaos rule&quot;... Light knows he didn't want Rand in Sevanna's control.<br /><br />4) Taim sent the gray man... the gray man knew where Rand was... Taim knew where the gray man was.  It's not hard to track Rand in the palace usually, right?  Hell, everyone else seems to just walk in on him... why not a gray man?<br /><br />5) Remember that Mordin is rather intelligent (if insane still)... and knows a lot about the plots between the forsaken (er, Chosen)... He probably knew about Sammy's plan to bring the battle to Shadar Logoth.  It seemed kinda obvious to LTT that Sammy wouldn't want to destroy what he already held in the battle to keep it... if LTT knew that, Ishy did to.<br /><br />6) Also remember that Rand is Ta'va'ren... and that if odd things happen in a place, people can assume he's there... thus the rumors of Rand being wherever he is, even when he's not wanting to be seen.


created: 2002-03-21 05:20:57
subject: <b>Dom Said Something About . . .</b>
body:
Mesaana and Be'lal joining temporarily to capture Rand and get Callandor.  He also said something about Lanfear ordering Slayer to kill the Gray Man (I totally agree with that) so the Wonder Girls could make it to Tear safe and sound.  Then &quot;she doesn't lift a finger&quot; to let Rand know they are there.<br /><br />That's because she visited Mat Cauthon in the White Tower earlier in that book (tDR) and he found out from her.  She wanted to make sure all three boys were there.  Rand knew he had to go anyway to get Callandor.<br /><br />To return to the original issue, I believe there ARE some things that might be homing devices for locating Rand, but not to kill him.  Let's take a look at how the Forsaken are NOT going after Rand:<br /><br />-Ishmael (back when he WAS Ishmael) escaped Rand once, fought him on Toman Head specifically to give him the wound (later explained--see below), and &quot;panicked&quot; when all did not go according to plan in the Stone of Tear (I hadn't considered that, but sounds good)--as Moridin, he's gone out of his way to even help Rand and his companions in some cases<br />-Sammael called truce<br />-Mesaana, since tDR, has made no further moves against him<br />-Graendal has doing NOTHING to provoke him<br />-Semirhage has simply been busy with the Seanchan, and doesn't appear to move outside her own plans without adequate backup (i.e. Mesaana, Demandred and maybe Moridin)<br />-Moghedien is not the type to go after the Dragon Reborn, but even so, the Spider's had other irons in the fire<br />-Lanfear helps Rand early on and shows considerable patience with him--she only wants to kill him now because she's now forced to take orders from Moridin as Cyndane, and because Rand rejected her love<br />-Demandred WANTS to kill Rand, but visited Shayol Ghul in the prologue of LoC, where the DO made it abundantly clear that the DO and ONLY the DO will be deciding who will live or die from now on<br />-Halima/Balthamel/Aran'gar is ignoring Rand at the moment<br />-Osan'gar/Aginor/Dashiva tried to warn Rand about Callandor's faults and MAY have saved him from the DF Asha'man (Demandred's cronies?)<br />-Asmodean, though he didn't have much choice, wisened up Rand a bunch<br />-The DO himself needs Rand alive, I believe (just wait, the theory is coming... )<br /><br />The Forsaken who went up against Rand:<br />-Be'lal found out the hard way<br />-Aginor and Balthamel were fried to a crisp in tEotW<br />-Sammael didn't want to fight, but Rand forced him and he either died or was trapped by Moridin<br />-Asmodean TRIED to run away, but was caught<br />-Lanfear was settled (in some fashion, anyway) by Moiraine<br />-Rahvin is &quot;yesterday's news&quot; (balefire joke)<br />-Osan'gar lost his cool in WH and was destroyed (let's hope for the last time, that punk)<br /><br />So, why does the DO need Rand alive?  I believe there is a direct correlation between Rand's wound and the Bore (see pending theory &quot;Rand's Wound _IS_ The Bore&quot;--hope they post that soon).  The DO plans to finally, after losing this cursed battle a thousand times, to enter the physical world through Rand al'Thor, the most powerful channeler there is.  If it turns out he can only &quot;touch the world&quot; it will then be through the wound.<br /><br />When the wound is sealed at Shayol Ghul during TG, the DO will then be resealed.  Ishmael went to Toman Head with the agenda to give Rand the wound so his master would grant him Nae'blis status.  The wound would enhance the taint and eventually kill Rand, but if the Forsaken were to &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule,&quot; he would live long enough for the DO to escape his prison.  <br /><br />Fain's dagger complicated this.  While the two evils fight each other off inside him, Rand's quality of life is bettered, but he still has a problem.  He must have the wound healed to defeat the Shadow.<br /><br />Sorry most of this is off the issue of the homing devices.<br /><br />Best discussion yet, WotMania lovers!  Let's keep it going!<br /><br />Oh, and Dom?  You're still the man/woman!<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-21 05:30:17
subject: <b>More On The Wound/Bore</b>
body:
Oh, and I totally forgot to add (will be in main theory when it's published):<br /><br />Rand comes close to breaking open his wound several times but doesn't.  Each time the wound actually does bleed, a broken or crumbling seal is found soon thereafter.<br /><br />Just a tag,<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-21 14:39:11
subject: <b>Family</b>
body:
Braidtugger, you're too nice! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> (and it's man, btw).  It's true we seem to agree on many things...<br /><br />&quot;I'm pretty certain Moiraine isn't Rand's aunt&quot;<br /><br />Damn, you're absolutely right Three in a Boat. She has no blood tie to Rand - I was totally mistaken. She is Elayne, Gawyn and Galad's aunt (or half-aunt if that exists, whatever) through their father Taringail who was her half-brother. She will be on the fringe of Rand's extended family if he marries Elayne but otherwise the closest she can connected to Rand is by saying that she was his mother's half-sister-in-law when Taringail was married to her. In our world, that's not enough to consider her Rand's aunt. I was wrong about her family link to Slayer too, Taringail doesn't tie him to Moiraine, his wedding to Tigraine only ties Moiraine and Tigraine as in-laws. So Luc is only the brother of Moiraine's ex sister in-law.  Quite messy family trees these people have!<br /><br /><br />The characters from the Light side who have links to Slayer so far are <br /><br />ISAM<br />- Lan (his cousin. Isam's mother is blamed for the downfall of Malkier)<br />- Moiraine (through Lan + the Dark Prophecy episode, possibly both are linked to the Tower of Ghenjei and the Finns)<br />- Verin (Dark Prophecy, noted that the trollocs shouted ISAM!)<br />- Perrin (wolfdreams, wounded Isam with an arrow in TAR)<br />- Birgitte (with Perrin in TAR around the Tower of Ghenjei)<br />- Nynaeve (attacked by Isam in TAR, TSR. Noticed he looks like Lan a lot)<br />- Egwene (saw him in TAR. Takes him for Lan)<br /><br />Remotely : Serafelle and Siuan (Dark Prophecy). Alanna was with Verin in the TR.<br /><br />LUC<br />- Rand (nephew. Can enter TAR in the flesh like Slayer)<br />- Galad (his nephew, but he was an infant when Luc disappeared)<br />- Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene (saw Luc spying on them in TAR, thought he looked like Rand's uncle) <br />- Faile (met Lord Luc in the TR, attracted his attention)<br />- Perrin (met Lord Luc, saw him wounded in the TR)<br />- Verin (met Lord Luc in the TR, She made him nervous)<br /><br />There's also Noal Charin, currently with Mat, who is very likely Jain Charin Farstrider, hero of Malkier who brought Isam's father to the King's justice.<br /><br />From his comments in WH about being Isam for the murder in Tear and appearing to the sisters, we can now assume that Slayer can be Luc or Isam both in TAR and the real world. <br /><br />Personally, I can well see multiple encounters or showdowns with Slayer.<br /><br />Let's see....  I can see 3 possible threads merging around Slayer :<br /><br />- Moiraine's rescue, the Finns<br />- The TAR task force (Egwene + Perrin)<br />- The Malkier plot (Lan/Farstrider/Isam)<br />- Verin and Corianin Nedeal<br /><br />Lan : He is a given.  When he'll learn about Isam, he's going to become his archenemy.  The whole &quot;Fall of Malkier&quot; subplot seems to have been included for a showdown between Lan and Isam.  Isam has been known to lead trollocs' armies and Lan knows the Blight like his pocket. Many hints have been given that Lan could unite the Borderlands but doesn't want to hear about it. But what if the Blight starts to advance again, under the man linked to Malkier's destruction???<br /><br />Beside his love for Nynaeve, Lan lacks a little something to involve himself into right now. A possible logical development would bring Isam to be ordered to destroy the rest of the borderlands from the Blight. I'm sure all the Borderlands' leaders are not in the South for no reason or without some Chosen knowing about it. IMO, Jordan is preparing something. <br /><br />Lan may finally raise the banner of Malkier against Isam, uniting the Borderlands behind him. At least, Isam would be a good bait for bringing Lan to do that. Slayer might hide in the Tower of Ghenjei, but perhaps his &quot;real world&quot; home is the ruins of the Seven Towers among the shadowspawn. Possible pre-strike encounter : Lan and Farstrider who might know a couple of interesting facts about the fall of Malkier. OTOH, I'm still unconvinced that Farstrider is working for the Light.  Not that he is evil IMO, but I highly suspect Compulsion by Graendal (the old man in her palace, her Shara pets) and Moridin also used him long ago for that EotW scheme. But a Lan vs. Isam showdown would be really interesting further down the road, not in book 10. The fruit is not ripped just yet.<br /><br />Verin will be involved with Slayer eventually, that's a given. She is a fountain of knowledge - some of it quite esoterical and she is linked with the Dark Prophecy, the whole TAR plot, the alternate worlds and the ta'veren plot threads (especially with Perrin and Rand but likely to become interested in Mat too eventually). She is also linked to Moiraine and interestingly she is now in a position to be right in the middle of a potential Moiraine vs. Cadsuane new plot thread (seriously hinted at in New Spring). <br /><br />With Rand, Verin, Lan and Nynaeve together, I can well imagine a little meeting with Isam along the road (Isam could flee by jumping to TAR when he sees Lan and Verin will reveal what she knows of the DP and Lord Luc in the TR). Now, just imagine if Slayer let slip something about Moiraine in that occasion...  But Verin won't have the necessary knowledge to bring the plot much further. Imagine how interesting would be if Verin discovers who Birgitte really is and where she came from, though... (Verin meeting Birgitte has long been my pet option for revealing further elements of Verin's real connection to TAR). <br /><br /><br />Birgitte, Mat, Olver, Thom : This gang is more obviously linked to Moiraine.  They miss Birgitte right now and are busy with a gholam, Tuon and Semirhage - and possibly they have a Graendal agent with them as well.  But momentum might come quickly if the three Ta'veren are reunited around Elayne or Egwene and share their news, let's say in the last third of the book. In the cons category, people usually don't share news in WoT... <br /><br />Cyndane : She had a costly showdown with Moiraine, she met Perrin in the wolfdream before, she will certainly add Nynaeve to her hate-list after the CK events, she was probably involved with Slayer before and she is strongly linked to TAR *and* to the Finns thread. Also, nobody around Rand knows who she is. She would make a very fitting partner for Slayer in a TAR aspect of Moiraine's rescue. <br /><br />Perrin and the wolves : Egwene dreamed of him leading a wolf army and Slayer is pursuing a wolvicide in TAR.  I think the Perrin + wolves army plot might happen in the wolfdream, not in the flesh.  It might well be an attack against Slayer or even the Tower/Finns if the Finns plot evolves into something quite unexpected (which I think will be the case). Egwene will be included somehow, IMO.  She is linked to Perrin's &quot;wolfbrotherhood&quot; since the beginning and IMO it's only a question of time before these two join their efforts and skills to do something important in TAR.<br /><br />I think all the events leading to Moiraine's rescue might come together in book 10 on the periphery of the White Tower/Black Tower plots, but the rescue itself might well happen only in book 11. I expect Mat and Perrin to meet first before joining Rand.<br /><br />But the real showdown with Slayer will probabky come later.  That'd be a pity if Jordan doesn't use the fact that he is both an enemy to Perrin and Lan and that he can use TAR.  So I would go with Lan moving against him in the real world while Perrin and Hopper close on him in TAR (and perhaps in the real world as well, with wolves too).  But that would make a huge subplot, so somehow I'm not convinced something like that could happen before TG (unless of course it's part of TG itself).  <br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-21 14:56:18
subject: <b>Nynaeve</b>
body:
I forgot Nynaeve.  If Rand, Verin, Lan and co. meet Isam in the real world, Nynaeve is the one who could tell them he can go to TAR.  She saw him as Isam there and noticed how he looked like Lan's brother. She would recognize him, I think.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-21 15:24:23
subject: <b>Ok</b>
body:
Now I'm worried, Dom's touching a little bit too close to a theory I submitted on who would rescue Moiraine. Thank the Light he wasn't focusing on it, I wouldn't be surprised to see my own theory uncovered before it has a chance to show itself!<br /><br />Not in terms of the evidence for it, we use quite different reasoning on the point, but it's nice to know that others suspect something similar to myself.


created: 2002-03-21 16:00:45
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
You make me very curious now Three in a Boat.  But let's keep it for your theory - hope it gets posted soon!<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-21 20:05:21
subject: <b>Speaking of theories...</b>
body:
When do we get to see your theory, Dom? Have you submitted it yet?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 21:08:23
subject: <b>Heh</b>
body:
I hope my theory gets posted too, but soon? Nah, there were 70 pending theories ahead of mine when I submitted it (which was either yesterday or the day before, can't remember).<br /><br />It's certainly not a full proof theory, but I hope it wil be posted as it should at leat spark some debate.


created: 2002-03-22 13:40:19
subject: <b>*NT*</b>
body:
I hope too!<br /><br />&quot;When do we get to see your theory, Dom? Have you submitted it yet?&quot;<br /><br />No I haven't submit it yet, I'm still collecting quotes and references.  I also have to condense and structure it a bit, and I'm really, really bad at that in English. I always end up with four long sentences to tell the same thing I would tell in one sentence in French. *sigh*.


created: 2002-03-30 09:02:58
subject: <b>you forget....</b>
body:
what he was doing when the attack happened... he was going to see cadsuane.. the last time he had gone to see her he had the crown and stuff and tried to impress her, which didn't help a bit... he left the stuff there so that he could try to just go as humbly as he could bring himself to be, and maybe have a chance of getting some info out of her... although there are possibilities... we do know that moraine gave them all coins she could locate in book one... we also know that anyone who has healed someone grows an affinity for that person... not as clear as the bond, but good enough for nyneave to find perrin and egwene in the right hotel in baerlon...


created: 2002-04-05 16:18:32
subject: <b>Three in a Boat is ........</b>
body:
CORRECT!  Three in a boat this I know comes as a surprise from me.  A homing device is valid theory.  As TiaB mentioned earlier Moraine gave the boys coins so that if separated she would have the ability to find them.  The second part that TiaB failed to add and the reason I agree with TiaB is as folows:<br /><br />The following is a passage from The Great Hunt, pg. 58 hardcover.  Moraine is speaking to Siuan Sanche about the boys.<br /><br />&quot;  I cannot travel with him. He must be let off the leash for a time.  there is no help for it.  I have had all of their old clothes burned.  There has been too much opportunity for some shred of what they were wearing to have fallen into the wrong hands.  I will cleanse them before they leave;  they will not even realize it is done.  There will be no chance they can be tracked that way,  and the only other threat of that kind is locked away here in the dungeon.&quot;<br /><br />So you see the idea of a homing device used to track Rand is a valid one.<br /><br />Your welcome!  My services are provided to anyone on this site free of charge.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />By the way I have found some of stuff posted here valuable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 05:58:42
subject: <b>Re: homing device</b>
body:
As well as his wound there is another thing RaT carries around 24/7 - Alannas bond.  And RaThor has been warned against Alanna b4 - maybe she's black/being used by the dark side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="00aa00"><b>Member of Wotmania Writers Guild</b></font><br /><br /><font color="00aa00"><b>S</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>o</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>m</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>e</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>s</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>h</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>t</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>a</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>l</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>i</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>n</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>a</b></font><br /><font color="00aa00"><b>(Help me sink this world into the shadow - of beautiful trees)</b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><font color="00aa00"><b><i>Blessed Be</i></b></font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 05:21:03
subject: <b>The homing theory has some relevance....</b>
body:
I say some, because it has been proven before in the books after the PoD and by other users, that (A) The reason why the Asha'man could find Rand at Dumai's well, is because of the principles of Travelling... that being that you need not know where you are going but know where you are coming from very well and know what you are looking for on the other side of the gateway. This is how any one capable of channeling and knowing how to create a gateway can find Rand when they need to. &amp; (B)As to what the Asha'man felt in the palace, by saying I'm telling you I felt nothing... that does still leave a lot for discussion.  I personally believe that, that has to do with them sensing his grasping Saidan at the time of there attack.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-13 15:13:29
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
for a wot book doesn't seem likely that there would be homing devices<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-21 16:31:31
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
Interesting theory, but I doubt it. If anything, I think that the wounds that Rand has may be homing devices, the wound from the Dark One leading him to it, the wound from Shadar Logoth leading Fain to him.<br /><br />Plus, you have to remember that Rand is ta'varen. I mean, weird things are supposed to happen around him.


created: 2002-03-18 09:59:09
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Makes as much sense as anything I've heard of. I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 10:11:12
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
The Golden Hawk is actually both the banner of Artur Hawkwing and of Mayene and Berelain.<br /><br />You can't disclude Berelain that fast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 10:26:20
subject: <b>Good points...</b>
body:
That is an interesting take on the &quot;Aes Sedai weighing&quot; dream. And Mat does have a history of rescuing Egwene. But for Mat to compare Egwene to Elaida, that doesn't seem like a hard choice to make, unless they're both (the 2 Amrylins) are in some life or death situation where 1 will die and the other live. But even then it seems kinda obvious that Mat would save the girl he grew up with. <br />Still, good job.<br /><br /><br />Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 10:33:54
subject: <b>hmmmm......</b>
body:
First off,  Berelain could be the Golden Hawk,  but Tuon is also a possibility,  which  would make for a good twist since Egwene hates the Seanchan so much.  And secondly,  I am almost certain the dream where Mat is shouting &quot;I'm Coming!&quot;  is because,  he's coming to rescue them in Tear from Covar...  as for the rest,  i like the two Aes Sedai on scales,  and choosing between Elaida and Egwene would certainly be considered a world altering event.  I don't think the seige of Tar Valon is going to go all that badly though,  she's got Bryne with her and RJ has spent to much time building him up as a great general.  One final note people:  Mat does NOT have a thing for Egwene...  we would have seen more of it by now...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-18 10:35:27
subject: <b>What about Teslyn and Joline?</b>
body:
I agree with some of your ideas, but not about Mat weighing Egwene and Elaida.  I think the two Aes Sedai on the balance scale were Teslyn and Joline.  At one point Mat was only going to rescue Joline; then he found out that Teslyn had done him a small favor once.  When he was debating whether or not to save her as well, they were on the scales.  As far as the whole world resting on his decision, well, if he hadn't gone back for Teslyn, he would never have kidnapped Tuon, she's almost the highest ranking Seanchean in the world, etc., etc.<br />   That's what I think, anyway.  But the rest of your ideas are pretty interesting.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 10:36:06
subject: <b>another couple points</b>
body:
I think it is quite possible that Mat do be the one to save Egwene.  And it does make sense that Tuon may be the golden Hawk.<br /><br />But Berelain is also a golden hawak- recall that both Berelain and Tuon both trace their ancestry back to Artur Hawkwing (who was also a golden hawk).<br /><br />Therefore you can't count Berelain that quickly.<br /><br />I doubt the choice would be between Elaida and Egwene.  That is not really even a choice for Mat.  He thinks of Elaida as a maneater, and Egwene is his hometown girl whom he has already gone way out of his way to protect in the past.<br /><br />The choice between Aes Sedai is probably a different choice-   I will throw out a few possibilites here:  Egwene and Tuon, Rand and Egwene, Rand and Tuon, Elayne and Egwene.<br /><br />There are quite a few possibilities which are much, much more likely than the Elaida/Egwene choice.<br /><br />Now, finally- how could Mat have a thing for both Egwene and Tuon??  I think it would be cool to see Mat in a white tower 3-some also, perhaps with Halima thrown in for comfort-<br />but even Mat could not survive a relationship with both the Amyrlin Seat and the Daughter of the Nine Moons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 12:50:53
subject: <b>hmm....</b>
body:
Some good ideas, but I don't think the second Aes Sedai is Elaida.  I think that the two Aes Sedai that Matt is weighing are Egwene and Rand with his three ladies.  There's another foretelling (or is it one of Min's viewings?) that says Rand was putting up a brick wall with him, Elayne, and others on one side and Egwene on another, while Rand says &quot;I won't let you stop me!&quot;  and in another of Egwene's dreams, Rand's putting a barrier between him and Egwene made up of the ancient Aes Sedai sign.  And the wise ones (Melaine and Bair) saw in one of their dreams a boat with Rand and three women that was on a scale going first one way and then another.  I always took this to mean that Matt has to choose between Egwene and co and Rand and co.  Rand's going to be the one to put Egwene on the execution block, and Matt has to decide between Rand and Egwene.  (Perrin might be involved, too.  In one of Egwene's dream, Perrin comes to save her from some punishment.)  And the Seanchan with Rand is the one that's with him now, Alivia.<br /><br />I think the situation will go something like this: Rand comes to Tar Valon during the fighting between Egwene and Elaida, and takes over.  He wants to unite the male and female channelers, with Egwene in charge, but she won't allow the male ones in without taking the three oaths.  (She thinks this is what makes someone an Aes Sedai)  Some where along the way, she breaks one of Rand's capital offenses, and Rand feels he has to &quot;execute&quot; her.  (Maybe not actually kill her, but something just as bad.)  Matt comes along, and so does Perrin.  Then something big happens.


created: 2002-03-18 13:22:19
subject: <b>What if</b>
body:
What if the Seanchan woman &quot;tied&quot; to Egwene is Alivia?  Alivia is/was a sul'dam, and Egwene was a damane.  Could it be a reference to a silvery braclet?<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 14:31:08
subject: <b>You Had Me Thinking for a Minute...</b>
body:
...that it was going to be a humorous theory.  Matt shouting &quot;I am coming&quot; at Egwene, her being tied down...Matt having a &quot;thing&quot; for Egwene...well, it all made sense in a twisted damane sort of way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 18:31:13
subject: <b>Oh boy...</b>
body:
&quot;even Mat could not survive a relationship with both the Amyrlin Seat and the Daughter of the Nine Moons.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> And let's not rule out Semirhage that Mat found pretty much to his taste.  <br /><br />I have no final opinion yet about the Golden Hawk. I think it could be Tuon or Berelain. We immediately think of Berelain because of the dreams/viewings related to Perrin, but that might precisely be RJ's point : confuse us with two female hawks. Tuon has a little plus for her, though, in the fact that Berelain is not linked to Egwene's story at all for now and in the fact that Mat will logically head for TV or Caemlyn and will probably have Tuon with him when he does. <br /><br />About the &quot;I'm coming&quot; dream, I might be wrong but didn't Egwene had that one while Mat was coming to Tear to save them? If so, it's highly unlikely that this one is not fulfilled already.<br /><br />About the two Aes Sedai, I love the idea that it's Rand and Egwene, but OTOH if Egwene had seen AS on scales in her dream it's extremely unlikely that she would not have noted the fact that one of them was a male...  <br /><br />We (almost) know from Min that Moiraine is crucial to Rand, this makes me believe that she might be one of the two Aes Sedai on Mat's scale.<br /><br />Elaida?  Why the heck would Mat consider Elaida over anyone else?<br /><br />&quot;I wonder how Egwene would lose in the first place, what with all her side has got going for her.&quot;<br /><br />Egwene is in a good position?  You mean the girl with a third of the army Bryne judged necessary to make the siege, a Chosen at her side, another ahead of her and quite possibly vengeful Asha'aman thrown in the mix?  If Egwene wins the TV battle, I think she may well have to send a thank you letter to Moridin for it...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-18 20:03:52
subject: <b>What Egwene has going for her is...</b>
body:
complete surprise, (she's 'sposed to be months away and here she finds herself with a nice easy jaunter to the shining walls), a nice hefty snow storm to keep the tower gaurds snug in their rooms, and Bryne. Militarily, I find it hard to figure the tower has any type of a chance. But it is also very liokely that Egwene would get betrayed in some way by all those evil persons hanging around. I'm pretty positive Mat shouting &quot;I'm comeing&quot; was fulfilled when he rescued the girls in Tear. As for the two Aes Sedai Mat has to pick from being Teslyn and Joline, He Picked BOTH! Not one of them, both. That doesn't sound like wieghing one over the other to me. I also doubt the Two Aes Sedai will be either Rand or Elaida or a man. Berelain is as likely to be the Golden Hawk as Tuon is, I lean towards Tuon myself though I don't know how either of them could be linked to Egwene in any way.


created: 2002-03-18 21:11:58
subject: <b>No Access to Travelling</b>
body:
Mat leaves Ebou Dar with no AS that has learnt to Travel.<br />This cuts down his helping Egwene down quit a bit.<br /><br />There's also Mat destiny with Illian and the HoV (rallying the forces of light).<br /><br />If WoT is 13 books long then Mat must be in Illian by the end of Book 11 (as I think the Last Battle will be 2 books long)<br /><br />Tuon's kidnapping will stop the Seanchan invasion of Illian - if RJ is into hostages like GRRM is -  and maybe Rand will send Tuon to Egwene and the WT for safe-keeping (after the BA purge) so you could be right about the Golden Hawk.<br /><br />And yes like you I believe Mat kneeling before Egwene and staring at her smile and having to clear his throat is suspicious - why would RJ put it in their in the first place??<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-18 23:43:37
subject: <b>I believe</b>
body:
that one of those dreams has already been fulfilled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 00:20:40
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
I like it a lot..... all except perhaps the fact that Mat likes Egwene; interesting but I don't agree.  ALso, I think Mat may have weighed those aes sedai already in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />But i Like the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 07:15:23
subject: <b>A Little Cleanup . . .</b>
body:
1.)  I agree that Mat has no &quot;thing&quot; for Egwene for the reasons stated and more.  He would have exhibited it more forcefully (Mat's not much for subtlety when it comes to women); he hates Aes Sedai as a rule; he's FINALLY hooked up with Tuon, who we've been waiting to meet for a long darned time.<br /><br />2.) The Golden Hawk is the Seanchan, not Berelain.  Sure, she might play some small part in it because of her linked heritage with the Seanchan, but they have a stronger connection to Egwene through Mat<br /><br />3.)  Who knows who the two Aes Sedai could be?  Egwene and Elaida is the simplest choice.  It could be Nynaeve and Elayne--perhaps Mat will need to make some choice concerning them in the future.  It could be symbolism for the White Tower and the Rebels in general, or the White Tower and the Black Ajah.  Too soon to tell.<br /><br />4.) If his choice is between Elaida and Egwene, perhaps Egwene will make it difficult for him.  She's been influenced by Halima, and Mat and Egwene have always been on shaky terms anyway.  Maybe he'll see it as choosing between the the lesser of two evils.<br /><br />Just some thoughts.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-03-19 09:20:32
subject: <b>good comments, thanks.</b>
body:
Yeah, I agree that the bit about choosing Elaida vs. Egwene is a little weak.  It's a fairly obvious decision for Mat, as of now.  But a lot can change, I suppose.  With Egwene wrapped around Halima's little finger, it's possible we could see something like what happened with Morgase &amp; Rahvin.  Who knows.<br /><br />But I don't believe Mat's &quot;choice&quot; has been made yet.  The wording of the dream (huge Aes Sedai) doesn't really indicate just two (fairly non-influential) sisters.  It is possible that the one where someone is coming to save Egwene has occured, but who knows.<br /><br />And I know it's a tough theory to sell, but I still have suspicions regarding Mat's thing for Egwene.  Every female he's actually had (or will have) some kind of longer term episode with has hardly been his archetypical woman.  Melindhra (darkfriend, taller than him), Tylin (queen, hardly a spring chicken), Tuon (skinny, inheriting the Seanchan empire).  As far as other evidence, we've got the wise woman in Tear's comments (can't remember her name), Thom's comments to him in Salidar, the throat clearing incident, and if you re-read the end of Fires of Heaven, he's pretty distraught when she gets hurt fighting Lanfear.  Yeah, I know she's his friend, yaddah, yaddah, but all these episodes read very strangely.<br /><br />Anyway, as far as Egwene's strategic position, you have to wonder how well she can do.  We've basically got the Forsaken running both the White Tower &amp; Egwene's camp, and in the words of Moridin, it's hard to lose when you're playing both sides.  I expect to see some heavy losses on both sides, unless the Forsaken are rooted out of hiding fairly quickly.  Knocking off the White Tower would have to be a fairly high priority for the forces of darkness, despite their opinion of individual Aes Sedai's abilities.


created: 2002-03-19 09:50:38
subject: <b>Personally</b>
body:
I don't expect to see any real losses to either side. I think the White Tower conflict will end up being settled more politically or possibly covertly...anyway, I don't think well see an open battle. Leave that to the Asha'man rebellion (I'm dying in anticipation of it)!<br /><br />As to Mat liking Egwene in that way...I've always hated that theory and don't see any merit in it, he looks at Elayne more than Egwene yet no one thinks he's gonna go for her.<br /><br />With the scales...well, everyone's pretty much said what I will, it can't be between Egwene and Elaida as that would not be something he'd need to weigh up, he'd go with Egwene everytime. UNLESS Egwene is against the Seanchan or something (which would be understandable), that could get in the way.<br /><br />I don't see how so many of you can say that the Golden Hawk could refer to either Berelain or Tuon and that Jordan might have been trying to trick us into believing it's Berelain and then immediately dismiss the possibility that he was doing exactly the same thing with the dream of Mat saying he was coming to Egwene. Perhaps Jordan wanted us to think it referred to Tear, when in fact it didn't. Who knows? But the possibility's there.<br /><br />I have to agree that the timeline issue is kind of strongly against Mat here. Many people are confident that Mat will be one of those who goes to rescue Moiraine, he has the gholam to defeat as clearly that's his enemy, he needs to get to Illian with the Horn at some point, surely he's going to head back to the band and no doubt Rand will want him to take charge of the Light's forces at TG.<br /><br />Then again I do think that Tuon is the Seanchan with Egwene in the dream, so what do I know?


created: 2002-03-19 13:15:26
subject: <b>Rand or Egwene</b>
body:
The one dream when Mat is comming (no dirty stuff) could allready have happend in tear, and the 2 Aes Sedais could have been Teslyn and Joline.<br /><br />I belive the stuff with the 2 Aes Sedais has not happend yet. And I belive the 2 Aes Sedais are Egwene and Rand.<br /><br />We know that Egwene need to be rescuded, due to some incident with the siege of the white tower or whatever.<br /><br />But if I remember correct, didnt Mat have a dream, or something.. when he was saying I would never betray you Rand. I'm really bad at plotting solutions, but I feel that this will have something to do with Mat's choice..<br /><br />will he betry Rand in someway to rescue Egwene, or will he go and help Rand, and maybe send Tuon and her armies to rescue Egwene..<br /><br />or maybe all this dosent add up.<br />


created: 2002-03-19 14:26:47
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that Mat's &quot;I won't betray you Rand&quot; comments happened after they travelled to Falme via the portal stone and they saw all thos alternate realities. Clearly in one or more (likely more as Mat seems so worried about it) Mat betrayed Rand.<br /><br />Whether this will have any bearing on the series is unknown, he might betray him, but it's nothing like a dream which predicts the actual future to some degree.


created: 2002-03-19 14:27:07
subject: <b>Why Would...</b>
body:
It be Mat that saves Egwene if things go wrong at the Tower, surely Gawyn is a far more likely candidate. After all, hasn't Egwene had another dream in which Gawyn chooses to either embrace her or cut her head off (or something to that effect, I cannot remember the exact details). I don't think Mat really comes into the picture as far as that storyline is concerned, he has too much else to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Rule Britannia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 15:09:23
subject: <b>The Tower Conflict</b>
body:
This isn't as cut-and-dried as people think.  Sure, Egwene's got a lot going for, but so does Elaida -- or should I say, Alviarin.<br /><br />First of all, all the real Aes Sedai can't really fight each other -- the others aren't darkfriends (this could be a real interesting test of the Oath.  We know it's possible for one Aes Sedai to channel upon another, but how is 'attack' defined?  In any event, there'd have to be a clear threat.  And would just -thinking- the other was a darkfriend make it acceptable?). <br /><br />Second, Tar Valon is eminently defendable. Bryne has an army, but he sure doesn't think it's enough.  I'm guessing the Tower Guards are a small army in and of themselves, and they can readily draw upon other countries.<br /><br />There is a Forsaken in the tower who has an awful lot of a vested interest in her position being maintained.  And don't forget -- Halima is more or less allied with her.  There won't be much surprise.  Mesaana will know almost precisely when the attack is pending.<br /><br />If I recall, only one third of the Tower were rebels.  So power-wise, the invaders are out-numbered.<br /><br />Let's face it -- the Battle of Tar Valon won't be a knock-down, drag out slaughter, such as Cairhien was.  There will be heavy fighting and bloodshed, but too many forces will have a say in the matter, and not just militarily.  Rand surely will take part in some way (or his proxies).  Taim and the Black Tower likely will show up.  Other Forsaken will be drawn.  Likely Sevana will be there (she's really starting to annoy me; it's like, &quot;Enough already&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.   <br /><br />The real fighting will take place on another, more personal level.<br /><br />This is not just a side event that needs to be resolved and gotten out of the way; this is a watershed moment in the war.


created: 2002-03-19 19:26:00
subject: <b>3 in a Boat...</b>
body:
as I read your comment about Mat betraying Rand it just popped into my head that that may have something to do with his giving up half the light of the world to save the rest, or maybe some other of the dreams/viewings involving Mat. Maybe what Mat sees as betrayal is really him doing what he has to do to help Rand win. But I think maybe we would have seen more of that in one of Mat's POVs if he was really that worried about it.


created: 2002-03-20 12:26:04
subject: <b>Another Thought...</b>
body:
When I read this post, one different idea that came into my head, was that maybe Eg gets captured by the Seanchan, and needs Tuon to rescue her from the headsman's axe. Eg has been very adament that she won't be taken alive again. And we know Tuon is very sensitive to damane.<br /><br />I agree that the battle for TV is not likely to happen militarily. But if it does, Bryne talked about laying seige, which is something that could take years. Futhermore, the Aes Sedai cannot kill unless their lives are in danger, so it is unlikely there will be alot of channeling going on.<br /><br />As for the forsaken becoming involved, why would they even care who wins? Why would they become involved? Alviarin won't do anything unless she is told to. Eg's AS all know how to travel, as well as other neat things they learned from Moggy, but again, they can't harm people, so what good does that do?<br /><br />And of course, Mat does seem to have a lot on his plate now. Maybe he was to give up Tuon so she can go and rescue Egwene. Maybe Tuon in the old tongue for eye, and he doesn't really loose an eye, he just looses his wife to the White Tower when she goes away to be trained as AS. Remember, Egwene wants ALL women who can channel to be associated with the White Tower.<br /><br />Good post, with alot of interesting ideas. Hell, we all have to have something to do between now and November!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 22:01:52
subject: <b>about the tower invasion</b>
body:
K I have this thought about how that will go, Its kinda influenced by Egwene's testing for accepted, remember how she was in the tower and she had to save rand and what not, well that may have been forshadowing of that event.  I mean consider what would happen if during the invasion Rand was somehow Collared with the male A'dam and almost executed, that could be a way that things may not go as planned, bringing around all the Mat and saving her and such,  but its just a thought....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> my geekiness is showing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 23:26:16
subject: <b>How Egwene will lose seige on tar valon.....</b>
body:
Just like the rebels who sent aes sedai to the tower to keep an eye on elaida and convert people to the rebels u can bet Elaida did that as well and so it will be those undercover aes sedai in egwenes camp that will somehow cause her to lose the seige and be captured. Now as was mentioned mat will save her and at the same time the blacks will be revealed most notably alviarin. Elaida will be stripped of the stole for not having figured out alviarins allegiance earlier, and for being part of the red scandal, and for sending all those aes sedai to the black tower. in the confusion that follows the rebels take control of the tower and egwene named amyrlin for all the world to see.  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Thank You for Reading  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat Cauthons conscience <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-21 04:04:20
subject: <b>We Seem To Have Gotten Off The Subject, But . . .</b>
body:
I agree with most of you in that the Tower is all but impenetrable.  Bryne will begin a siege, and Egwene will either covertly travel inside with a few key Aes Sedai, or she will be invited in for negotiations.  Somewhere in there she will be captured, and Gawyn will be present, thus the dream about him saving her or cutting off her head.  Her rescue will be facilitated by the aforementioned key Aes Sedai, Rand, Logain or someone of that sort (maybe even a Forsaken?).<br /><br />It is also possible an actual war WILL break out, with Bryne leading the rebels' forces, and Tuon/Mat leading the Seanchan and the Band.  Might be more exciting battle-wise, but the Tower sure does like to save face.  I think a quiet settlement is more likely.  I can see the news parchments now:  &quot;Tower Rebellion A Fraud, Amyrlin Has Good Laugh.&quot;<br /><br />WhatEVER RJ decides to do, he'd better do it quick.  We need a united White Tower ASAP.<br /><br />And since Mesaana is the only Forsaken who appears as three seperate people, i.e., with the Tower, with the Rebels and with Elayne/Nynaeve, she'll need to be dealt with (see pending theory:  &quot;Mesaana Is Three People!&quot; )<br /><br />Love stirrin' up that angry blood . . . <br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-21 08:18:00
subject: <b>Aargh!</b>
body:
Stop bringing up your future theories before they're posted! It's incredibly hard to resist countering them or adding points, bu I must as I don't even know what you've written yet!<br /><br />&lt;hugs knees, rocks back and forth&gt;


created: 2002-03-21 17:23:51
subject: <b>Three people</b>
body:
Hmm... interesting that.  We could disagree on that one though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  - but let's wait for your theory.<br /><br />My ideas for the White Tower conflict are constantly changing, but what I expect is that Mesaana won't be in charge of the White Tower after book 10. I think that Moridin will oust her using Halima. She might still be the one to control the BA for Moridin afterward, but from outside the Tower.<br /><br />All the plots that Mesaana was involved in (that we know of) have failed.  She might have wonderful big secret ones that we have not figured out, but that remains to be seen.  She does not appear very efficient at using the Black Ajah either.  She lost control of many sisters along the road, including formally well-positionned ones like Galina, the number 2 of the BA who is now Sevana's pet.  She lost 11 BA to Moghedien who are now slowly reappearing under Moridin's control after months of doing the DO knows what, probably more in the personal vein than important for the big scheme since it didn't save Moghedien from a cou'souvra. The mission in Tanchico has failed. She missed Rand in Fal Dara and I think she missed Siuan and Moiraine as well. She let Padan Fain steal the dagger. She missed Rand in Tear. Her kidnapping plot in Cairhien turned awfully bad and she lost sisters there again. Worse, her Elza ended up killing a Chosen in Shadar Logoth. Her control of the Amyrlin is deficient in some respects, as the ongoing hunt for the BA in the Tower has proven. Sisters she sent to the Black Tower for an attack that would have antagonized greatly the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai have ended up bonded by Asha'man and can't disobey them. Worse still, they are under the control of &quot;loyalists&quot; Asha'man, not those who are likely Demandred's proxies.<br /><br />My opinion about the Tower rebellion is that Mesaana blundered totally with the way she decided to replace Siuan Sanche. She had not foreseen the split at all. She thought she could control the Rebels using the Blue/Black Ajah, but Halima slipped in and took control of the Sitter and eventually of the Amyrlin Seat. For all we know, Mesaana might not even know about this and it could be the reason why Aran'gar stops talking when she was about to name her &quot;charge&quot; at the Chosen meeting in WH.  <br /><br />She has also started to use Alviarin for her own ends, ordering her to serve her exclusively. But Alviarin, not a fool, understood fully well from that that the Chosen are competing against one another and that she could use it to promote her own rise.  I expect her to betray Mesanna for Moridin or another the second she is contacted. I'm not really sure that Moridin will appreciate to know that Mesaana taught Travelling to Alviarin.<br /><br />So basically, I think that unless Mesaana has very clever hidden plans going on, she will most likely have serious problems in CoT unless she joins or have already joined Moridin's side.<br />


created: 2002-03-21 18:34:35
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Mesaana does prefer actual power to the perception of power, so I suppose it's a possibility that she is actually being extremely clever in a way we don't/can't see...but I don't think it's likely.


created: 2002-03-21 21:10:46
subject: <b>Tuon can't learn to channel</b>
body:
Tuon said that she had tested to become a Sul'dam.  And that she had failed.<br /><br />If you believe that the test made here deliberately fail, read the following.<br /><br />Considering the cut-throat environment around the throne, many of the members of the royal family would be hoping that she was capable so that there would be no reason for them to stop her, and Tuon, like other potential heirs to the throne has little contact with the queen directly (especially at Sul'dam training age) so the possibility of the Empress or the Royal Family making a false test are near null.  Tuon cannot channel and never will.<br /><br /><br />A little off topic, but the book constantly mentions shaving the side of the head, so Tuon might have hair<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />, also, after Tuon's attacks on Mat, Mat might deny her a razor and once again she should get hair.  Jean-Luc Picard is good without hair, women aren't


created: 2002-03-22 04:04:16
subject: <b>Siege is impossible</b>
body:
...after all, Mesaana taught Alviarin how to Travel.  That sort of negates the point of any siege.<br /><br />Actually, as I think about it, I'm guessing something totally different will happen.  Egwene will move in to attack, but then will learn of the Invasion of Andor.  Citing that the purpose of the White Tower is to serve and protect, she'll re-route the army to Andor, where Byrne's expertise and local knowledge will serve well.  That will give the Tower (sorry, the non-rebel group) time for Pevera and her cronies to root out the Black Ajah.  That will cause yet another split in the Tower, and Egwene will come in and clean up.  She may get captured at this point, and that might be the catalyst instead.<br /><br />To be blunt, straight up there's no way the rebels can win.  Their hope was a siege and that's now out of the question.  Well, there other hope is/was Elayne's angreals, but she's a tad busy at the moment.


created: 2002-03-22 08:05:49
subject: <b>Tuon CAN channel</b>
body:
Believe me, she can. The test the Seanchan do is only for those with the spark, they don't realise that some have the ability to be taught it. Anyone who can train a damane will be able to channel, Tuon can train damane.<br /><br />I don't think Elayne would be at all happy if it was sen that Tar Valon gave her the throne, just like she doesn't want Rand's help.


created: 2002-03-22 16:04:42
subject: <b>A Little Deductive Reasoning . . .</b>
body:
Thanx, y'all, for your comments on Mesaana.  I've been compiling information (with no particular theory in mind, save the aforementioned one) on who exactly she might be.  We know this much:<br /><br />-She likes REAL power.  She's not Moghedien, who lurks in the shadows, and dislikes having to pull puppet strings.<br />-She's REALLY strong in the One Power.<br /><br />These two things led me to believe she's a sitter.  Someone with influence and as whom she could better hide her strength with the OP.<br /><br />-We also have the one sister who answers, &quot;I am not Black Ajah,&quot; or something very like instead of &quot;I am not a Darkfriend.&quot; (sorry, don't have my books with me).  <br /><br />Many have speculated this individual is Mesaana.  What's her name again?<br /><br />There were some other things I have written down, but not with me.  Can anyone help me out?<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-23 15:51:31
subject: <b>Mesaana hasn't used the oath rod</b>
body:
Mesaana hasn't used an oath rod at all.  In her time, the oath rods were used to bind criminals, and no one wanted that.  (That's the reason Semi turned to the dark side; she would have been stilled or bound.)  I doubt that Mesaana would let herself be bound.  Sure, she could remove it later, but who knows what the effects of removal are?  <br /><br />Mesaana's been pretty smart, and I think she staged the whole split of the white tower in the first place!  (What better way to sow chaos than the break up the one group no one thinks will break?)  And it seems that a lot of the AS in the tower are black ajah.  Now that Suian's gone, with  Alvairin as the Keeper, Mesaana's pretty much running the show in the Tower.<br /><br />I've got this whole theory of who Mesaana is; but that's for my next study break!


created: 2002-03-25 16:58:27
subject: <b>Smart?</b>
body:
&quot;Mesaana's been pretty smart, and I think she staged the whole split of the white tower in the first place! (What better way to sow chaos than the break up the one group no one thinks will break?)&quot;<br /><br />That could be smart, but could she have foreseen it?  I find it extremely unlikely. Siuan was not the first Amyrlin to be deposed in controversial circumstances and it did not lead to a full split before.  Furthermore, orders were issued by Elaida (ie: Alviarin) to bring back all the sisters to the Tower. What prolonged the split and lead to creation of an actual rebel faction is quite outside the sphere of influence of Mesaana. It's Siuan Sanche and Leane Sharif and their lies about Logain and clever manipulations that galvanized the Salidar faction.  Before that they were merely a bunch of sisters waiting to return to TV when it was safe.  If it wasn't for Siaun the Salidar Aes Sedai would likely have joined back the White Tower long ago after a bit of negotiation with Elaida's envoy.  If it wasn't for Egwene and Siuan, they would not have goen with an army to Tar Valon either, the Hall did everything they could to delay the return and avoid a confrontation (except for &quot;Halima&quot; who seems order the Blue Sitter to help Egwene).  The split of the Tower would not have created chaos had the sisters who fled remained hidden until it was safe to go back, that it didn't happen that way is not Mesaana's doing.<br /><br />I find it much more likely that what happened is that with Ishamael dead Mesaana could now do what she wanted in the Tower and for her that meant trying to grab REAL power, not just playing a tedious chess game using the BA who hold a few interesting positions (Sitters, Head of Ajah etc.). Alviarin came to Mesaana reporting Elaida's words and Mesaana seized the occasion without pondering all the consequences, ordering Alviarin to get involved in such a way that it would garantee her place as Elaida's Keeper. <br /><br />When the Tower split and Siuan escaped, Mesaana has lost control of over 2/3 of the Aes Sedai. Many of those didn't spread any chaos, they quietly remained with the people they advised and fell out of Mesaana's indirect influence, sitting on the fence until they knew more.  Mesaana tried to get the sisters back to the Tower but that didn't work. Technically, she still had one grip over Salidar in the person of that Blue/Black sitter. But Aran'gar took control of her.  There's still not a single bit of evidence that Aran'gar works with Mesaana or even that Mesaana knows who &quot;Halima&quot; is or that there is a Chosen with the Rebels. When Aran'gar was about to name Egwene as her charge in front of Mes' ally Demandred at the meeting in WH she stopped. Notice that none of the Chosen has piped a word about the &quot;plan&quot; coming to fruition at the Tower. Even Demandred seems unaware of what's really going on. <br /><br />So far Mesaana's move to oust Siuan and secure her power in the hierarchy seems to me like a complete failure. Alviarin not only has her own ambitions and is far from being the most loyal pet, but her control over Elaida is limited enough that the Amyrlin was able to order an investigation that seems well on the way to uncover some of the most prominent sisters that the BA had in place, including perhaps Alviarin herself.  Mesaana's &quot;real power&quot; could well slip through her fingers quite soon and she might be forced to fight or flee, unless she has some very clever and astounding secret plan but, like Three in a Boat, I doubt it a lot. <br /><br />&quot;Now that Suian's gone, with Alvairin as the Keeper, Mesaana's pretty much running the show in the Tower.&quot;<br /><br />But there's little left to run, especially in the &quot;real power&quot; category. The faction loyal to Elaida has alienated many country leaders and the influence of the Tower is declining. In the Tower itself the influence of the Black Ajah is in serious danger.  To me it sounds like Mesaana, like some other Chosen, has not a very good grasp of the politics in this Age.  Ishamael had, but with him gone many mistakes were committed that as Moridin he now has to correct.<br /><br /><br />I doubt that Mesaana is a Sitter because to achieve that she would have to impersonate an experienced and well-known sister.  That would be very dangerous if a few sisters from her Ajah noticed that Sitter X is really behaving oddly or that she suddenly has forgotten some of the stuff any Sitter would know (such as the minute rules and traditions or simply the way she voted on issues X,Y,Z last year). The safest positions for her would be to portray some reclusive White that has no friend or even better, some dreamy Brown her nose always in a book and who doesn't socialize - providing her with the occasion to study Tower records at will and a nifty way to explain any knowledge slip she could make.


created: 2002-03-25 21:33:13
subject: <b>Egwene on the block</b>
body:
I've wondered whether Egwene's being bound and imminent execution has anything to do with the Forsaken who is her personal maid.  I could see a situation in which this is revealed and Egwene is branded a black ajah.  This would entail her actually winning the battle of the Tower and then being disposed of by the two Forsaken now in the Tower itself.  Nothing would throw the White Tower into chaos like the proof of a Balck Amyrlin.


created: 2002-03-25 22:45:03
subject: <b>Rumer</b>
body:
There is a rumer of a battle at Tar Valon at the end of POD. Here's the quote, in full. (I learned my lesson)<br /><br />&quot;At Tar Valon, some stories said, great armies had clashed, and the streets ran with blood, and rebel Aes Sedai had stuck the head of Elaida a'Roihan on a pike. No; Elaida had closed her hand, and those who survived among the rebels groveled at Elaida's feet. There had been no rebels, no division of the White Tower. It was the BLack Tower that had been broken, by Aes Sedai designs and Aes Sedai power, and Asha'man hunted Asha'man across the nations.&quot;<br /><br />We have seen times beyond number rumers being completly false, but we have also seen truth gleaned form rumers, I propose we do the same. We can discount the third one, which said there were no rebels, as being completly false. The first two, the ones we aren't sure about, has one thing in common, both speak of a battle of one form or the other. As they are rumers, they may both be wrong, but I still think this lends credence to the fact that there will be/has been a battle at Tar Valon and the whole thing wasn't decided by compromise. <br /><br />The Black Tower rumers have kernals of truth also. I think we all agree there will be a split, Taim vs. Logain, only now Taim is without his top Luetenants (sp?), those being dispatched by Rand and Fain in Far Madding. If there is a split, there will be those that run. But it is just as feasible the hunting Asha'man are after those whose names Taim put on the traitors tree, Namely his guys and Rands trusted that are now bonded to Aes Sedai. Also the little bit about Aes Sedai designs being involved could also be true, it being easy to see Toviene convinceing Logain to act against Taim. <br /><br />As for Mesaana screwing up royally, I agree with Dom and have nothing else to add. <br /><br />my two cents, whether its actually worth that remains to be seen.


