# w_comment

created: 2002-01-20 18:30:34
subject: <b>Breaking the Bond</b>
body:
Simply falling through the doorway should not have broken the bond.  She would have to break the bond as she went through the doorway or have died.  Remember when she went into the doorway in Tear, the bond didn't break then.<br />  Feel free to disprove this.


created: 2002-01-21 20:30:25
subject: <b>About the bond...</b>
body:
Moiraine didn't have to die for the bond to be severed, she could have been stilled or burnt out in some manner. They all have the same effect on the bond.<br /><br />...as for all the speculation about Moiraine being dead or otherwise. Is there anything in the books that give us any clue as to what happened to Lanfear when she fell through the doorway?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 21:30:21
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
She came back in a new body, so she likely died....possibly to escape.<br /><br />In Winter's Heart she thinks something like: &quot;Impossible! She (Alivia) was stronger than she (Lanfear) had been before the Finns held her!&quot;. This means we know she didn't die in the battle with Moiraine at least as she was defintely held and it's also been speculated that her reduction in strength was due to the Finns, possibly a punishment/payment.


created: 2002-01-22 08:05:37
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
My thought was ... if Lanfear wasn't killed by Moiraine then chances are the same thing happened to both.<br /><br />Hmmm, then again maybe not. I guess we'll have to wait and see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 21:53:31
subject: <b>Back to Lan and Teaching Rand All That Stuff</b>
body:
I believe that at one point Lan &amp; Tam knew each other quite well, i also believe that there was a theory at this very site that said the same thing more or less that was quite generally accepted.<br /><br />Anyone have evidance pro or con?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 00:32:40
subject: <b>Cadsuenne (sp?) and I think it was Sorila...</b>
body:
Please dont yell too loud if Im completely, totally and utterly wrong about this...but didnt Caddy and Sorila make a &quot;pact&quot; to teach Rand &quot;laughter and tears&quot; or something like that?  Not meant to challange or be a pathetic attempt to disprove, just to make it known that their INTENT is to do so...But I really love the theory!! Great Job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 02:32:11
subject: <b>Hahaahah hahahaahaha ha hah</b>
body:
My dear God! Its all so clear now!<br />I have ahd the same thoughts in my head for a long time, but never bothered to realyl examine them.<br /><br />The Rand-Lan connection is obvious and the elaboration on the Tears and Laughter part of the pie is briliant.<br /><br />Well done Peter.<br /><br />In the future, send me your theories directly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />darklans@home.com<br /><br />-Darklans


created: 2002-01-25 08:45:07
subject: <b>Reason to live</b>
body:
Rand has many reasons to live.<br /><br />Elayne<br />Aviendha<br />Min<br />His unborn children and his children that haven't been conceived yet.


created: 2002-01-25 13:23:54
subject: <b>Comments on Moiraine being dead</b>
body:
I have two theories about Moiraine's 'death'. I can't decide which I like better. <br />First theory: Moiraine is a <i>damane</i> owned by Tuon. I'm serious. In the first scene from Tuon's PoV, she's angry at a <i>damane</i> who read her future and told her something she didn't want to know. <br /><br />The <i>damane</i> had been found on the docks, starving, shivering, wet, and dressed in rags, claiming to be Aes Sedai. Now what and how and why would an Aes Sedai be on the docks like <i>that</i>? Not of her own volition, that's for sure...but if Moiraine was tossed out of Finnland, she wouldn't have had much choice as to where she landed, now would she? And maybe Thom, as a non-channeler, will get her out of that mess, because he'd be able to open the <i>a'dam</i>.<br /><br />For those who say 'But Mat would have seen her, or Teslyn': Lanfear was certainly changed. So why couldn't Moiraine have been? And Teslyn's a Red- she might not care, and if she did, she might not have noticed in her self-pity; Mat hasn't seen all the <i>damane</i> in the 'kennels' as of the end of WH. <br /><br />Second theory:<br />She's in the back of Lanfear's head just as LTT is in the back of Rand's head. And she and Lanfear are constantly bickering. At some point, Moiraine will win out, and Lanfear's new body will become Moiraine's, and Moiraine will go to Rand. <br /><br />Since she died, she wouldn't be held by the Three Oaths, she wouldn't be recognized -unless Lanfear's new body is hers, that is- and she could say she was whoever she wanted to be. Obviously, she would be able to channel- as strong as Rand, if she still has Lanfear's power. <br /><br />On the downside of things, she would also have Lanfear constantly in the back of her head gibbering about going to serve the Dark One.<br /><br />What do you think? <br /><br />PS: Great theory, btw- I totally agree with every bit of it except the 'love' part...I don't think that's quite right. I will explain later; this is already too long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 19:13:17
subject: <b>Bravo, Bravo</b>
body:
This was an exellent theory.I pretty much agree with everything there. But I do believe Tam, right along side his old buddy Lan, will have somthing to do with Rand becoming more human again. Once again I say Bravo.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Truth Vengence Honor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 21:28:20
subject: <b>Dang.</b>
body:
Nice!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-16 16:43:09
subject: <b>WOW!</b>
body:
I think that this is one of the best theories ever!  I especially like the idea THAT LAN AND RAND HAVE SOME SORT OF FATHER-SON RELATIONSHIP! Good stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>The Duke of Wotmania.</i><br /><br />&quot;Ryan got made a king, Danielle cleaned up on Wheel of Fortune, and Maddy got molested by a dragon!&quot; <br /><br />Ohio Gathering 2008.  Where were you when the we laid siege to the Magic Castle?<br /><br /><b>OCWIATJ Forever.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 09:33:03
subject: <b>Tam Influences Rand</b>
body:
Okay your theories are very good especially those concerning Lan however I believe Tam will play a big part in reminding Rand what it is to be human.  And once Rand learns well the Ashaman that still follow him anyway will follow suit.  I also think Matrim and Perrin will play a part in this I mean who better than his two greatest partners to teach him he isn't the only one in this fight.  Though he has many burdens to carry they will help carry the burden thats what they are there for.  The Wheel has obviously spun them out because the Dragon as great as he is is not enough to handle the DO such as in Lews Therin's case.  Sure he had the one hundred companions but those are not the same as two other Taveren.  I think Matrim and Perrin will show him that despite the burdens they carry they can still have emotions.  In The Fires Of Heaven Lan tells Rand they are the same &quot;wedded to death blah blah blah.&quot;  He seems to forget that Perrin and Matrim are in the same boat neither wants the burdens they have to carry and they too are followed by Death perhaps Matrim above all.  Yet Matrim also seems to have a lot of fun despite his constant grumbling.  And Perrin has more compassion than any other ten characters in the book put together.  Tam is the only man he has ever known as a Father.  Tam will remind him what it was to be a child.  All of this will lead him to regaining humanity.  Perhaps in some weird way Lews Therin and Rand al'Thor will finally have a Duel inside his head.  If I remember rightly Min had a viewing that said one of them must die.  Well once he starts learning how to laugh and cry Lews Therin and he will have a duel inside his head and in the end LTT will be the one to drive it home that he must stay human in order to win against the DO that he must not let his pride overcome him afterall that is why Lews Therin pretty much lost.  It least in the long run he lost.  Okay I guess I am done babbling.  Geez Mr. Robert Jordan sure knows how to make a guy think about things.


created: 2002-07-05 06:02:10
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
I think Moiraine is dead, and not coming back. The women &quot;who is dead and forgotten&quot; could be Morgase, everyone thinks she is dead..


created: 2002-07-09 23:53:02
subject: <b>Wonderful job but, er....</b>
body:
...a few points or somethings...<br /><br />1. Is Aviendha going to give birth somtime? Perhaps to four girls???<br /><br />2. Sevanna is a DARKFRIEND!!! Not a lightfriend or a &quot;gray-friend.<br /><br />3. What's going to happen with Isam and Rand?<br />   One wonders and wonders.<br /><br />I do hope Moiraine comes back, but why so long? I wouldn't be to surprised if sha doesn't. I will cry...Thom and her will marry if she comes back.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-24 22:33:53
subject: <b>good!</b>
body:
This is an incredible post!!! Especially the Rand/Lan relationship. I only disagree at one point, love=reward, i just don't agree with that. Other than that, it is an absolutly great post. Great Job!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===========================<br />The cynics are right nine times out of ten.<br />HENRY MENCKEN<br />Funny how just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does.<br />DOUGLAS ADAMS<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I attempt to make everyone&#8217;s day a little happier. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 16:00:31
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
A very good theory. I agree totally with everything except the reward=love thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> The Lidless Eye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />  The Black Hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />  The Nameless One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />  Lord of Barad-D&#251;r <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 08:37:42
subject: <b>more ideas on the Rand/Lan connection</b>
body:
I think it is likely that Rand is closely related to the Borderland monarchs. If you read the conversation between Rand and Barthanes Damodred at his party (TGH, I can never remember chapter titles) Barthanes seems to make a link between the Andoran royal house and the borderlands even before he makes the connection with the White Tower. That seems to indicate a close (blood) relation of the Andoran Queens with the borderlands, and we haven't got a clue who Tigraine's father was. He might be from anywhere, but considering the above and the fact that he had to be a very good warrior, which most of the borderlanders seem to be, I would like to hazard a guess that he came from any of the borderland Royal houses, which would also make a nice link between Rand and the borderland monarchs coming south. <br />From Ethenielle' POV in the POD prologue, we know that they are all closely related (by the way, yet another reason why Nynaeve and Lan should both survive; the royal houses could use a healthy injection of fresh blood from a farmwive) and as they all seem to consider family very important, it could swing the scales in Rand's advantage.<br />Also I would like to make a point about something one of the other respondents said about whether or not Elayne was Thom's illegitemate daughter. It doesn't matter who her father is, Thom or Taringael, she is illegitemate anyway, because Taringael's marriage to Morgase is invalid. I wrote a theory about it which was unfortunately not accepted so I'll point it out here. Taringael's marriage to Morgase occured before the Aiel War as his failure to grab power in Andor was the thing that caused Laman to chop Avendoraldera down. Tigraine died much later, at the end of the war caused by Laman's action. Therefore, Taringael was still married to Tigraine, and his marriage to Morgase is bigamous. We know bigamy is a illegal in Andor from the way Min was persecuted after her first vision about a married man running away with another woman. The mere suggestion that she was involved was enough to make a large number of people treat her like a criminal. <br />I hope this has convinced anyone.


created: 2002-12-15 01:05:34
subject: <b>Rand/Lan connection</b>
body:
Rand and Lan do have a connection.  It is that Lan is the only person who taught Rand the sword.  There has not been any mention of blood ties between them, unless you count the Luc/Isam melding.  And there has been no evidence whatsoever that Tam and Lan have ever known each other.  Remember, at one point they were all in Emond's Field.  Tam spoke with Rand before he left, and after they left, at the Village Council meeting, he certainly knew who Rand left with.  And Lan has spent the majority of the story in close proximity to Rand, the son of his supposed old buddy.  And there has been no mention of them knowing each other.  And since Lan seems to let his emotional guard down more around Rand than anyone else except Nynaeve, I personally think he would have said something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Vengeance is Mine,&quot; sayeth the Lord.  I'm just here to arrange the meeting.<br />This is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-17 16:06:40
subject: <b>rand not related to Moiraine</b>
body:
Vashti:    and all others about kinship<br /><br />Cairhien: Laman, King<br />          Moiraine, his favorite niece<br />          Taringil Damodred--married to Tigrain<br /><br />Andor:    Modrellien, Queen   <br />          Tigrain, Daughter-heir, married Tigrain<br />          Galad, son of Taringil and Tigrain<br /><br />          Queen died, with no Daughter (in the Waste at Moroso`s insistence}<br /><br />           House Trakand succeeded<br />           Morgase, Queen--married Taringail --to continue good relations with Cairhien<br />           Elayne, Daughter-heir<br />           Gawyn, First Sword for Elayne<br /><br />Aiel Waste:  Shaiel {the former Tigrain} married {?} Janduin and gave birth to Rand.<br /><br />Rand is Not related to Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 16:17:08
subject: <b>small note</b>
body:
Melaine got preggers first, but she and Bael be in luv, l-u-v...<br />new york dolls, they be rockin it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-19 12:26:37
subject: <b>Moiraine's gone.</b>
body:
She's gone. Gone gone gone gone gone. You can't change that. I can't change that. History. Archives. Thing of the past. She's outta here. How on Earth do you think she will get back? Nyneave can't heal her, she's in another dimension. She killed off Moghedian, we know that, and she didn't use balefire, so... she's either dead in another dimension or she's stuck in another dimension. Trust me, Robert Jordan is original enough to not recreate what that idiot Tolkein did. Yeah, I called him an idiot. Because he was one. He was a crappy writer, and I'm not afraid to say it. Anyone who describes a battle in less than eight sentences is. Boo hoo.<br />Look, if you want some cheesy story about someone miraculously coming back to life, check out Tolkein. Personally, I'd rather not sit through that junk. The point is, SHE IS GONE!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-19 12:48:38
subject: <b>Oops.</b>
body:
Sorry. That was Lanfear, not Moghedian. Though I've been reading some of these theories. Moiraine may well be alive. Sure, the bond disappeared, but the doorway melted. Which is why she's gone. And even if the doorway melting had no effect on the bond, it's not like we know for sure that Moiraine could not unbond her Warder. So what if no other Aes Sedai claim not to know how? Moiraine was a smart cookie. Now she's a dead or stuck cookie, that's my point.<br /><br />Tolkein still sucks, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-07 23:51:06
subject: <b>Min is not seafolk</b>
body:
Min couldnt be seafolk i think she represents Rands home.  Aviendha=Aiel which are Rands true people<br />Elayn=Wetlander which Rand thinks of himself as<br />Min=The people Rand was raised from<br /><br />thats my thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-01 03:18:45
subject: <b>I gree...for the most part...</b>
body:
Personally on the laughter and tears thing here is my take.<br /><br />Rand is already begining to learn laughter from the girls (Aviendah, Elayne, and Min)....well mostly Min. I think it will be more so since their bonding him.<br /><br />However he will continue to think he needs to be 'hard' until he learns to cry. Which he will do as soon as he sees Moraine alive. I envision and embrace with Rand finally breaking down and weeping on Moraines shoulder.<br /><br />Why does he need to learn these though?<br /><br />Well I will get to that in a theory of my own later.<br /><br />


created: 2009-01-24 14:10:06
subject: <b>Good Job</b>
body:
I agree with your theory on Cadsuane, it makes a lot more sense than the other theories and personally i dont think it would be her to teach Rand tears and so forth.<br /><br />I think you've got the perposes of Rands lovers slightly wrong thought, i think that:<br /><br />Aviendha represents the Aiel - there is hardly any segregation between Wise Ones and ordinary Aiel, so there is no need for him to have two representatives.<br /><br />Elayne represents Aes Sedai and the Atha'an Miere - she will be high in statues when she is older with Aes Sedia because of her strength, and she is close to the Atha'an Miere because of the ship they took in the Shadow Rising and she learnt how to channel thicker flows and all that.<br /><br />Min represents ordinary people in Randland - to the normal person she is neither Aes Sedai or a Forgeiner, so most will see her as his link to normal people - farmers. merchants etc.<br /><br />I like his link to Lan, i really think it will be with the help of Lan and Moiraine that he will learn laughter and tears (symbolic as they were the first to help him learn he was the Dragon). Lan will feel better when Moiraine returns and his bond being finally transfered to Nynaeve. This will help show Rand that he needs to be less dark and cold, that he needs to feel and show tears and laughter (not his scary mad laugh to himself that he seems to do just a bit too often).<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-17 13:54:47
subject: <b>Birthdays</b>
body:
The only question I have are you saying that the characters FIT those signs, or ARE those signs? As I seem to recall, Moiraine mention in TEotW that Rand, Mat, and Perrin were born within weeks of each other: surely at least two of them would have the same sign.<br /><br />I agree with the assignment of Ages however; it seems to make almost too much sense.


created: 2002-01-17 16:43:20
subject: <b>Coincidences</b>
body:
Based on my experience, astrology is generally about coincidences.  I mean, everyone born in the same month (or under the same conditions within that month, if you wish) acts in a similar manner?  Right.  My best friend growing up was born within 2 hours of me, but has a completely different personality.  To compensate for these dfferences, astrology descibes people in only the vaguest terms, which usually leads to coincidences.  <br /><br />I believe that this is what has happened here with WOT.<br /><br />BTW, Rand was born in the winter, as were Mat and Perrin, but as a group, they all have generally non-winter signs.<br /><br />My $0.02,<br /><br />&quot;The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves.&quot; -Bill S.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 16:47:05
subject: <b>Mmmm...</b>
body:
No.<br /><br />Sorry, you pick and choose the characters you want and of course you can find people that fit the characteristics.<br />Of course Nynaeve is Aries too becase she is even more fiery, agressive and violent than Aviendha. Rand has just as much trouble staying with a single woman as Mat does. and while you associate some characters by physical and emotional traits you arrange others by the sign itself (ie Elayne and Leo (Lion)). I could go on...<br /><br />In fact I could go through and assign each of the 12 main characters to two or three different signs of the zodiac just by their characteristics.<br /><br />Then there is the complete randomness of the sextiles and squares. You could put these twelve characters in any of the twelve positions and rationalize a relationship between them. It is almost expected because they are so closely interrelated.<br /><br />Quit reading astrology. It is flakey to believe people have certain predispositions just because they were born in a particular month. You are what you want to be...or what you let others define you to be. Be yourself, define yourself.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 17:21:58
subject: <b>Aries</b>
body:
Being an Aries myself, Aries are natural born leaders.  This would put Rand in this category.  If the Dragon Reborn is not a natural born leader, then nobody is.


created: 2002-01-17 17:22:52
subject: <b>Astrology, GRRRRR.......</b>
body:
First, I am not trying to flame the theory poster here.  I will have comments (mostly positive) about it later in this post.  But first I need to rant.  If you don't want to here why astrology is garbage just skip the next four paragraphs and I will discuss what I feel about the post.<br /><br />Astrology is a pet peeve of mine.  I hate it. Not only are the claims completely baseless, but they can't even get the Astronomy right!  <br /><br />Astrology is based on the idea that peoples lives are affected by the position of the planets, Moon and the Sun in the sky.  These objects move around in the sky in a complex yet well understood way.  The paths that these objects takes are always in or near a region of the sky called the zodiac. (Believe it or not the zodiac is a real <i>astronomical</i>)  The zodiac forms a large band in the Celestial Sphere with the path of the Sun forming a circle in the middle of the zodiac.  The zodiac contains around 24 constellations (the astrological zodiac contains only 12 of them.)  As you might expect these constellations have very different sizes.  <br /><br />Astrologers, on the other hand divide the zodiac into 12 <i>equally sized</i> regions and assign it to the 12 signs.  Furthermore, because of the precession of the equinoxes, the postion of the section of the zodiac assigned to the signs has nothing to do with the constellations.  For example, the Sun is (roughly speaking) in Cancer from July 21 to August 7, yet the sign Cancer is from June 22 to July 21.  This is solidly in Gemini.<br /><br />Finally, for those who believe that Astrology is correct for other reasons than the sky (say because of the seasons).  If it works because of the seasons (say people born in summer all act in a certain way) why doesn't it matter where you are born!  People who live near the equator don't have the same type season's.  Worse, the southern hemisphere have seasons at opposite times to us.  Finally there have been numerous studies (for example studying people in the military where they have access to a large number of birth records and other statistics) that have shown no correllation whatsoever with Astrological signs.<br /><br />*The Rand ends here*<br /><br />Now back to the main point.  The theory post seemed well thought out.  (It also wasn't trying to say that Astrology is correct, which is good.)  I don't think RJ will go through so much trouble to make the main characters fit astrology, though.  I also think that when you talk about who the main characters are the line gets kind of fuzzy.  I would not consider Aviendha a main character myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 18:47:22
subject: <b>Speaking of the precession of the equinoxes</b>
body:
The precession of the equinoxes is a real astronomical phenomenon.  The position of the North and South poles relative to the stars changes on a cycle of 26,000 years.  The position of the vernal equinox (the location of the Sun on the first day of spring) also changes over the same cycle.  The vernal equinox is now in the constellation Pisces.  (For those of you who remember the beginning of the Age of Aquarius this is the year that the vernal Equinox moved into Aquarius as Astrologers recognize the sky-which is of course completly wrong!  The vernal equinox doesn't move into Aquarius until 2600.)<br /><br />Getting to the point, it is possible that the precession of the equinoxes can tell us what time WoT is set in (assuming that RJ set WoT in our future (and past).  (This also assumes that RJ is aware of this phenomenon (a good bet) and that he would incorporate it into the story (not nearly as good of a bet.))  <br /><br />The sky changes with the precession of the equinoxes.  For instance 10,000 years ago the North pole would be between Hercules, Bootes, and Draco.  Orion which is now prominent, high in the evening sky in the winter would be low in the sky and would be seen in the evening only during late spring.  Centaurus and Lupus would become visible to people at 40 degree lattitude in the North and would be seen in the winter. <br /><br />The reason I am bringing this up is that I have a memory of someone, I think Rand, mentioning a plowman making circles in the sky.  Bootes is known as the plowman today.  Twelve thousand years ago Bootes would have been circling the North pole.  According to this theory we are 16,000 years in WoT's past.  WoT is 10,000 years in our past.  <br /><br />Does anyone else remember this quote (about the plowman) or did I read it in another book?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 19:39:03
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I'm an Aries and...that's pretty much all I know about Astrology.<br /><br />Your theory was interesting, if a bit confusing due to words like sextiled, but I really don't think Jordan drew from this source. At least, if he did, not as heavily as you imply.


created: 2002-01-17 20:37:04
subject: <b>Interesting but probably not</b>
body:
While this theory is carefully explained and certainly seems interesting, I don't buy into it. As the preceding comments have indicated, the zodiac is too general and usually wrong to be taken seriously, since most people who may be the same sign or element can be very dissimilar. In any case, I think the environment shapes your personality and behavior more than the sign you were born under. <br /><br />This certainly appears to be true for these 12 characters, since many of them grew up together or in very isolated cultures (i.e. Aiel, Borderlands) in perilous times.  If anything, those factors play more into why Rand and company are the way they are.  Also, I think Jordan has stressed beautifully in his books that the poorest/richest person can rise or fall in life based upon their actions.


created: 2002-01-17 22:40:08
subject: <b>I agree with the Wombat</b>
body:
Firstly, this theory assumes that there are the same astrological phenomena in the Westland skies as are present in our own (if not, then there can be no connection).<br /><br />Second, astrology is wrong, wrong, wrong, and anything which is based on arbitrary divisions and vague predictions is not a sound basis for anything (even a theory trying to predict things based on a series of books needs to be a little bit logical).<br /><br />However, the arbitrary choice of characters to fit into the signs probably makes a kind of sense if you look at it that way. OTOH, the fact that the Forsaken all seem to end up as Scorpios would tend to indicate that there's no mystic connection, just a commonality of personality (ie they're all very nasty people)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 03:32:38
subject: <b>Astrology is a CROCK!!!</b>
body:
But Norse mythology is right on the target.  That is why we can post comparisons of WOT to it without persistant calls of &quot;crock&quot;.  Oh, and Camelot and all of those stories.  Those are real also.<br /><br />Come on, guys.  Astrological archetypes are valid comparisons regardless of the validity of astrology itself.  They are actually rather common in literature.


created: 2002-01-19 15:25:16
subject: <b>i'm sorry...</b>
body:
I'm sorry... but what's the point?????????????????<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 14:07:30
subject: <b>To Eggtooth22</b>
body:
You are right.  There is no difference in authority between astrology and Norse mythology.  I cannot speak for the others, but the reason that I rant about astrology and not mythology is for two reasons.  The first is that astrology makes claims of being a science.  (Where the evidence shows that its claims are false.)  Mythology does not.  It is closer to a religion.  Second astrology is still believed today by some.  That is the truly anoying part. (It is just as likely that a fly in China will be affected by me picking my nose that the position of Jupiter affects our lives.)<br /><br />The second problem that Astrology suffers is that the traits of each sign fit pretty much anybody.  Think about it long enough and you can put anybody into any sign.<br /><br />The third problem is that it is doubtful that RJ would include Astrology.  (It is a fair amount of work for little payoff, for one.)  For another, being a former scientist,  RJ is more likely to despise Astrology (Scientists are just as irrational as any other people, yet they have a tendency of being irrational in different ways than the general population.  Astrology is one area where scientists tend to think more rationally than the general public.)  Another reason that RJ would not include Astrology is because his interest in mythology stems from how history becomes mythology.  Astrology has little basis in history.  What basis it does have comes from other mythology!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 05:28:11
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
So basically the person who wrote this theory ( i forget ya name sorry !) has said that each of the 12 main characters has a different sign, and give or take a few, that means that they each have a b'day in a different month. So to me this seems like a hidden meaning.  Shouldn't there be say 2 in January, 3 in April etc. <br /><br />Maybe they are all black ajah and are still in the tower !!!!<br /><br />Dont ask me, i just thought of it as i was reading. Just my poor attempt at humor !!<br /><br />Demon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 11:38:31
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
I don't think the theory poster intended for this to become the forum to debate the validity of astrology, but I have to agree with the Wombat.  I think astrology is a crock, too, not at all worth delving deeply into.  Very mystical and useless in my left-brain logical world.  <br /><br />I do, however appreciate the theory having been well thought out and shared with wotmania readers- it's always fun to read a new idea.<br /><br />And thank you to the Wombat for the intelligent way he writes- I enjoy reading theories, thoughts and posts that are intelligent and where all the words are spelled correctly!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Wolf Sister of the White Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The way is clear, the light is good,<br />I have no fear, nor no one should.<br />The woods are just trees, the trees are just wood.<br />Credit to Sondhiem <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-27 05:04:48
subject: <b>From the Theory's Author</b>
body:
A couple comments just to clear some things up.  For those of you interested in the astrology-is-bunk issue, skip to the end.<br /><br />First, I didn't mean to imply that the twelve characters were actually born under those specific signs.  If you've studied a bit of astrology, and it seems that maybe one or two of you have, you know that your sun sign -- &quot;your birth sign&quot; -- doesn't play much of a role in determining your psychological make-up.  The signs of the zodiac are energetic archetypes, and I was just pointing to the correspondences between these characters and the archetypes.<br /><br />Second, I chose those twelve characters because, unlike Gawyn or Amys or Semhirage, they seemed when I wrote it to be the main characters of the series.  Those who commented that this is a bias are probably correct and there certainly are many other important characters that one could look at.<br /><br />A couple other quick things before I address the big issue.  Regarding Rand, Aries is not generally a sign of leadership, but I admit that Saggitarius isn't either; regarding Nynaeve, Scorpio is often mistaken for a fire sign because it can manifest with ferocity; regarding Elayne, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that she could be equated to any sign other than Leo.<br /><br />Okay, about astrology.  I'm not going to turn this into a forum for debating the issue, but generally speaking, people regard astrology as bunk because they know almost nothing about it other than what's printed in newspapers and magazines, which is not astrology at all.  It seems that there are a few scientific types out there delivering unilateral rejections of an entire field of study, but if you're going to do so, be scientific about it and learn about your subject first.  You simply can't discount astrology if you haven't bothered to try understanding it first.<br /><br />For those who stick to the argument that astrology can't have any validity because it doesn't correspond with astronomy, all I can really say is that the two don't have a lot to do with each other, other than referring to the same physical objects.  Again, if you're really interested, track down someone who knows what they're doing and ask for an explanation of how and why astrology does have a direct correlation with our psychological states.  If we only ever accepted ideas that corresponded with our pre-conceived notion of how things *must* work, we would never learn anything other than what we've told ourselves *can* be true, and what's actually true goes unnoticed.<br /><br />If you're still laughing out loud, it's probably not worth wasting much time with so please forgive me for &quot;still believing&quot; in something as archaic and misguided as astrology.  But for the rest, whether it fits with what you believe or not, astrology *is* valid, there is a huge amount to learn from its symbolic structure, and maybe worth getting immersed in while you're waiting for Book 10!  Thanks for all your responses.<br />


created: 2002-02-12 12:30:24
subject: <b>Not right</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but you've got it wrong. In Nynaeve, where is the ruthless perception, the driving need to get more than even? Where is the penultimate secrecy? In Rand, where is the utter naivete, the optimism, the detachmentand cooled emotions towards family? Lan is about right, though I'd dash a touch of either Aries or Scorpio as his Moon. Min and Thom haven't been developed as friends, and they are a 5-9 combination. Thom is WORLD - WEARY, not an aquarian trait. Morraine is too decisive to be a Piscean, too pragmatic, too secretive, too ruthless, too invulnerable, not someone anyone would easily confide in. Min is your Pisces, witha strong Earth (probably Taurus) or Fire (probably Leo?) thrown in as Moon. there's a lot more, but it's too much. Yo've looked only at certain aspects, both of character and zodiac.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 18:00:46
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Well, the basic Zodiac relations are quite possible. Since Jordan has been drawing from numerous sources, this Zodiac connection definately seems to work. If it doesn't fit perfectly, maybe Jordan didn't go all out to fit the mold. With Jordan, any of this is possible. By the way, Min fits with Thom and Mat better than you think. They have quite similar personalities, and they are all quite gifted with the numerous knives they can make appear seemingly out of nowhere. <br /><br />As for Burr's counter-arguments, NOTHING happens in WOT without Jordan. The theory isn't that the Zodiac governs WOT, just that Jordan might have used it in forming some characters, and the theories about how the ages break down seem to work very well.<br /><br />Nice theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 14:42:33
subject: <b>A good theory</b>
body:
I think a lot of people missed the boat on debating the validity of this theory. Whether or not Astrology is believable, has nothing to do with whether the zodiac archetypes can be related to the main characters of the Wheel. Some have said that because Astrology is believed by many people, they deny it can have any influence on our beloved series. However most readers agree that other Myths have some parallel or influence in the Wheel of Time.These myths have included modern day religions(i.e. Christianity) as well as Ancient religions(Norse, Greek). Is believing that celestial bodies have influence on your personality any less illogical than believing a dead man was ressurrected 3 days later. People have a lot of crazy beliefs, some people believe that Star Trek or The Wheel of Time is real, I say fine just don't hurt anybody.<br />The issue here is what parallels can be drawn from a mythic belief into a modern day epic tale. I am pretty impressed with the comparisons. They are not exact fits but are close enough to merit kudos. I don't think RJ intended them to be exact fits but he may have drawn from those archetypes for the complex characters he created. Even if he didn't, I think this shows how universal the tale RJ is telling.


created: 2002-10-01 15:44:32
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Great theory, but I think you should have provided more backing up evidence. Of course there will be connections between characters who fall into the different catagories of signs. I also think your character choices were simply for your own benefit. You did not include some of the other major people. <br /><br />However, I think you are on to something. Just that you need to dig it out more. After all, we all know RJ is compulsive about putting mythology into the books. Why not astrology as well?<br /><br />Again, great idea!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Amazingly without a signature and yet...<br />The greatest thing since the printing press...<br />And quite capable of kiling you with forks...<br />Very slowly...<br />Amazing adherant to randomness<br />And proud sponser of the possum posse<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-10 22:27:46
subject: <b>Flamer</b>
body:
I havnt read all the comments but I from what i've seen no one questions ur sexuality due to that non hererosexual post that barely has anything to do with the book.


created: 2003-04-03 18:28:42
subject: <b>interesting...</b>
body:
Well i must say, u must've put a lot of thought into this. I pretty much agree with you. I dont think Rand would not be able to get along with Mat.  I'm pretty sure they're best friends, or used to be back in the two rivers, and they didn't really seem to have any big fights or anything like that.  Of course if Jordan was creating his characters around this, it was probably a bit difficult to get all of the characters in sync with each other, but for the most part, id say ur pretty accurate.  Funny, my favorite characters Nynaeve, and we're both scorpios!<br /><br />If all your theories are this interesting, keep them coming.  Even send them straight to me via noteboard if u really want to!<br /><br />If u dont, i'll be sure to read them on the theory board.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Tulleel Sedai of the Green Ajah<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tulleel sedai<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 01:27:51
subject: <b>I like the theory but</b>
body:
I would re-arrange some of your character assignments to suit myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would not be surprised if RJ used astrology archtypes to define his characters. It's fairly common in literature and with a large cast like in WoT, you have to draw from another source sometime to get enough diversity, or all your characters start thinking the same. Norse mythology n whatnot has its limits, as those tales focus on external events and don't show a character's internal workings.<br /><br />Anyways, I would say Thom and Moiraine are Scorpios, and Nynaeve might be a Cancer (mood swings, overprotective and thinks about the Two Rivers a lot) and Egwene is a Pisces, because she's damn flaky.<br /><br />Perrin and Elayne are dead on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good job. It always amazed me that RJ could write different POVs like he does, and this would help explain how.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="#99CCFF">Shall we go shopping for a dress? Or will it be bare breasts and ankles, all the way? -- Elizabeth Swann<br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-23 11:54:51
subject: <b>good idea.......</b>
body:
......but unbelieveably confusing. my brain hurts!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-24 00:13:46
subject: <b>Rand</b>
body:
Some of this may already have been covered above but I'll continue nontheless. Obviously, OrangeAjah didn't mean that these characters were born in the corresponding astrological months but merely showed traits for these signs. Whether astrology has any validity to it or not is a null point...WE&quot;RE DISCUSSING FANTASY!<br />*ahem* <br /><br />I believe Rand is a Leo. From what I know of them (being one myself) he has many of the traits. <br /><br />Just for orders sake, I understand picking one character for each of the twelve signs, but a few would most definitely need to be doubled or tripled.<br /><br />With the exception of Rand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Very good job.<br />


created: 2002-01-18 12:31:33
subject:
<b>Hey I&#180;m first <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
But I disagree with the Horn thing. Why? Well, we haven&#180;t seen any evidence for channelers being bound to the Horn of Valere. Additionally, not every soul spun out again by the Wheel has to be bound to the Horn. Just take Rand. On teh other hand, it seems to make sense that Egwene has more hidden Talents. But she is definitely no <i>ta&#180;veren</i> or Nicola would have recognized her as one (she saw a special aura around Mat when the Band arrived at Salidar).<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:51:08
subject: <b>I don't...</b>
body:
...think that Mat or Perrin are tied to the Horn...not yet at least. When the heroes are called at Falme they instantly recognise Rand as LTT, despite the fact that we know he looked nothing alike except for height. Evidently they can recognise another hero, when they're still tied to the horn and haven't been spun out at least (as that erases past memories). So they would have recognised Mat and Perrin if they were tied to the Horn.<br /><br />If you are thinking that they simply didn't show their recognition (which would be a pretty flimsy argument), Birgitte spoke to Perrin when he was in TAR and still nothing was said. She has also become firm friends with Mat since her tearing out and she is intrigued by how he klnows the Old Tongue, yet she would surely suspect it's because he's a hero if he was one.


created: 2002-01-18 15:51:42
subject: <b>I don't understand...</b>
body:
Why does every main character in the series have to be someone reborn or a Hero of the Horn? It is possible for them to achieve greatness on their own and not be destined to it by past lives. Since Bob the Thatcher from Market Sheran isn't a reborn thatcher from the past, it IS possible that Egwene isn't a reborn Amyrlin, Aes Sedai, tavern maid, or some other profession.<br /><br />Besides, if there really were more people from the Horn walking Randland, then Jordan would probably have told us about them by now.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-18 16:08:58
subject: <b>Egwene sucks. Period.</b>
body:
If she is a Hero, it would be the loser hero that noone invites to their Horn parties.<br /><br />As far as the options of who she is, I would go with Latra (AoL chick). That simpleminded thinking and stubborness just mirrors Egwene too perfectly.<br /><br />I HATE HER!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 16:43:04
subject: <b>Rebirth in Randland</b>
body:
Whoa, I think that's the first time I've seen such a flame from GG. Cut down on the Dew, guy!<br /><br />Anyway, regarding the post on whether or not current heros have to be past heros, probably not. But isn't it true that everyone in RL is someone reborn? I thought that the whole point of the WOT and no beginnings or endings is that everyone is spun out again and again (unless burned out by balefire). This would mean a generally stangnant total population in the world - no totally new people at all, no one goes away forever.<br /><br />Here's another question: When do the heros of the horn get released? At the end of every age? Every couple of ages? Obviously it must happen from time to time, or else there would be no provision for addition of new heros (such as Mat and Perrin), or else after an innumerable number of ages, there would be more than 100 heros...<br /><br />Just my thoughts...<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 19:37:36
subject: <b>Wouldn't she be recognized?</b>
body:
I think if she was bound to the horn, Birgitte would probably have recognized her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Adarra Liselle<br /><br />You're the one who's exercising his logic. I wouldn't dream of interfering. -Sephrenia</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 19:44:35
subject: <b>I hope not</b>
body:
I think that the points made before are valid: she doesn't have to be a hero in order for her to be someone reborn, and besides, we haven't really seen any Amyrlin/ types as heroes so far. More front-line warriors, not AS leaders. If she understands a little bit of the old tongue, it could just be the old blood in her, as Moiraine said sometimes happened (in EotW).<br />And whoever said EGWENE SUCKS is soooo utterly right!!!!!!!! She's absolutely awful <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 22:39:37
subject: <b>the simple reason why none of the above....</b>
body:
...are Heroes of the Horn (Rand, Mat, Perrin or Egwene)<br /><br /><br />they're not dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 10:11:11
subject: <b>We don't know Latra's thinking was simpleminded.</b>
body:
We don't know if her plan would have worked or not.  But we now <i>know</i> that Lews' plan didn't work; and not only didn't it work, it caused the Breaking.  That suggests that Latra was correct all along.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 12:10:58
subject: <b>Possibly Latra was correct, however</b>
body:
her plan centered on using the Choedan Kal, and the access keys to them were captured by the Shadow during the War of the Power, so the plan couldn't have been implemented whether it was right or not.<br />It does seem likely that her seeming stubborness was somewhat helpful, still, because if there had been females among the Hundred Companions probably both halves of the Source would have been tainted, not just saidin. But Lews Therin's plan was the only alternative by the time it was carried out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 17:33:26
subject: <b>The old Blood</b>
body:
Moiraine mentions 'somewhere' (TEotW?) that the Old Blood runs strong in the Two Rivers. In relation to Mat it kicked in _before_ he got to Aridhol (think of the battle cry before they fled there).<br />There's no reason that Egwene can't have the old blood too, and in fact it would be unusual if she didn't given the whole interbreeding thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 03:41:18
subject: <b>We don't</b>
body:
know that LTT's plan didn't work as it was never carried out. His plan (I think) was to take 7 of the strongest female channelers and 6 of the strongest male so they could chain (am I getting my AoL terminology right?) and position the seals.<br /><br />You may well be right that saidar would ahve been tainted as well as saidan, but we don't know that. Perhaps with the women there the seals would have been placed a lot faster, not giving the DO time to respond in the way he did.


created: 2002-01-21 08:08:24
subject: <b>The Old Tongue</b>
body:
Isn't the Old Tongue probably similar to the Common Tongue, in the same way many modern languages are similar to Latin?  I think I read on the Big FAQ it is, and the reason it seems different to us is because they're really different languages.<br /><br />Example:<br />The characters speak the Common Tongue, but RJ translates it to English so we'll buy his books.  Since the Old Tongue isn't supposed to be readily understood, he leaves it untranslated.<br /><br />Since the two are related, it <i>sounds</i> familiar, but you can't quite place it.


created: 2002-01-21 23:01:14
subject: <b>Old Blood</b>
body:
The old blood explains all those things much more easily that a hero of the horn.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 13:07:47
subject: <b>Eldrene was Queen of Manetheren</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 00:32:49
subject: <b>Number sweet 16</b>
body:
Nice work dude. You have an intersting perspective here. Not much more to say right now but you've fired up some interesting thought in m'head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 01:18:54
subject: <b>NEVER</b>
body:
CANT BE!  EGWENE IS THE DEVIL!!<br /><br /><br />altho your theory was carefully thought out, you are forgetting just how truly terrible she is.  A horrible monster like that cant be a hero!!!<br /><br />~Eva<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 11:23:46
subject: <b>Egwene and Delving</b>
body:
In the post &quot;Egwene: A Heroine of the Horn&quot;, it says that Egwene has the ability to find ore's and metals, and that this would constitute the Talent Delving.  I just took one of those WoT quizzes about Verin.  It asked what her most powerful Talent was. Answer: Delving.  The next question asked what power she was weakest in. Answer: Earth.  Not sure where this leads, but some info.


created: 2002-02-14 00:51:23
subject: <b>in answer to blue84</b>
body:
If you look in the glossary, it mentions that delving is really the name given to two tallents. The older one has to do with the location and removal or ores, but this is so rare--or even non-exsistant--in channlers at this point that the name &quot;delving&quot; became associated with a second meaning. The present-day defination has to do with checking the health of a person and has nothing to do with metals. Egwene has the tallent delving under the first defination, and Verin has the tallent delving under the second.


created: 2002-02-15 12:02:52
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Hey, I thouht everyone knew that Egwene was Latra reborn! Light, I'm going to have to use the theory post myself soon!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 19:21:32
subject: <b>Something I forgot to add</b>
body:
I forgot to add another clue that supports my arguement. Lately, Egwene has been constantly compairing herself to other strong Amyrlins. It would make sense if this was a RJ hint that she was one herself.


created: 2002-03-26 11:31:11
subject: <b>Answer to Renee</b>
body:
Comparing herself to other strong Amyrlins does nothing to support the theory because she is doing so because she hopes to become one.  It is similar to a basketball player comparing himself to Michael Jordan, or a tennis player to Steffie Graf.  You naturally want to see how you can measure up to those you perceive to be the pinnacle of whatever endeavour you are pursuing.  If I compared myself to Robert Jordan as a writer it does not mean that I am Tolkien reborn.<br /><br />Also new heroes are added to horn who have not been before.  This is of course evidenced by Artur Hawking telling Hurin that he would be added to their number once he dies, but not saying that he was one of them already. <br /><br />//i\\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 00:14:26
subject: <b>I don't get it</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> I like Egwene and I don't get why anyone could hate her.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-01 18:35:21
subject: <b>come on, egwene isn't that bad</b>
body:
i think she's a great character and she could be a heroine of the horn, but it's more likely that she just has a lot of manetheren's old blood in her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 00:07:25
subject: <b>A Question</b>
body:
Ok now this may cause some debate but if a hero is attached to the wheel/horn, lets use birgette as an example, will they still be summoned by the horn if they are already alive?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-13 20:19:36
subject: <b>You almost had me ...</b>
body:
...convinced. But I still think your reading way too much into this.  There are alot of coincedences, but I think thats all they are. When I first saw your title I thoght &quot;bullsh*t Egwene is just a b*tch&quot;, but by the end I serieously had to consider it.<br />               (Egwene is still a b*tch)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">super Pyro<br />First Aiel Wolfbrother<br />I live for death<br />There can be no happiness without sadness<br />No peace without disorder<br />No light without darkness<br />There can be no good without evil<br />I am the evil that makes the good possible <br />So you owe me big time<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 09:51:00
subject: <b>Egwane Not what alot of you think.</b>
body:
I like the theory but i dont think it is true. But its good work and good reading. The best part about the theories is that they give people ideas about stuff amd make them thik. I LOVE EM ALL!! EEven thogh some are far fetched. <br /><br />But to all of you who hate Egwane think of this.<br /><br />If you were in her posistion what would you do. You couldnt just let the Dragon Reborn go against everything you want and belive. She is not the B*ITCH that alot of you belive she is just doing what she has to to get the White Tower back together and what she thinks is right. <br /><br />Just my 2 coppers. <br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-08 22:48:38
subject: <b>She is not</b>
body:
It is silly to look at everyone as some incarnation of someone else. In TGH Artur Hawkwing says &quot;Only a few are bound to the Whell, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages&quot; To me this is long winded way of saying ta'veren.<br />     That is one of the reasons why I belive that in the end Rand, Mat and Perrin will become/are heros of the horn. <br />     The other reason why I think that is because it feels right. What better way to end ther series than to have the three ta'veren as heros of the horn? By doing this the series will end on the note that it is not the end but just a ending, and it will a lot cooler to see that than to have the 3 heroe dead or retiring into obscurity.<br />     I do not believe that Egwene will be a hero of the horn, but she is the only other charater who I can say has a chance. Besides what has already been said about her, there are also other theories that she is also to some extent ta'veren. <br />


created: 2004-09-01 19:43:16
subject: <b>Whitecloak Syndrome</b>
body:
Egwene is not a Hero of the Horn. Neither is Mat nor Perrin, and certainly not Rand. They are someone-or-other Reborn, of course ( in tEotW, it is said that everyone was somebody reborn, by Rand, I believe, after Fain first mentions Logain ) but there is no evidence whatsoever that she is a Hero. Your entire theory has been stating that she is someone Reborn and who it might be. And you may be right, though I don't see any evidence for or against it.<br /><br />As for Egwene being a b*tch... Not necessarily. Cadsuane certainly is, but I think Egwene simply suffers from Whitecloak Syndrome. That is to say, she believes she knows the one and only truth, and that everyone who doesn't agree with her is a moronic, blind fool.<br /><br />I hope to make the term &quot;Whitecloak Syndrome&quot; an official WoT term ! Help me make this dream a reality !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:40:25
subject: <b>I Suppose you are right...</b>
body:
Ah, sounds all too likely to me, and guess what? I have logics exam next Monday. If I'm having trouble with the basics, no chance with RJ's &quot;obvious&quot;, *sigh*.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:43:53
subject: <b>Wow! The first to post.</b>
body:
I don't exactly agree with you on this matter. I think RJ tells us when we have enough clues to know and answer by saying the answer is obvious. When we don't have enough clues he tells us to RAFO.<br /><br />Let's face it, RJ doesn't HAVE to tell us anything. We'll buy the books anyways. He tells us thing because we ask and if we should have the answer already, he'll tell us that we can find the answer ourselves.<br /><br />You are right about the logical axiom of eliminating all impossibilities but sometimes we don't interpret things the way RJ expects us to. Most often the only way to resolve these questions will be to RAFO...<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titiles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:44:50
subject: <b>argh</b>
body:
someone posted while I was typing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 13:02:33
subject: <b>I suspect you're right</b>
body:
After all, that's the main reason I have for Graendal being the one who killed Asmodeon, I believe there is enough proof against others doing it that she is the only one who could have.<br /><br />I happen to fall inot the camp who are pretty much convinced that Demandred's identity has been solved (as Norry), so the only Forsaken left for me is Mesaana...and I'm not eliminating all those other Aes Sedai and servants at the White Tower.<br /><br />Ah, it's Danelle, I know it is, I just can't prove it.


created: 2002-01-18 13:22:06
subject: <b>Perhaps....</b>
body:
Perhaps the RAFO doesn't mean that all the clues have not been given... What if it means that all the clues are there, but we are not synthesizing them properly?<br /><br />Perhaps RAFO means that we should Read Again &amp; Figure Out.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> - Eriya


created: 2002-01-18 16:44:06
subject: <b>*chuckle*</b>
body:
It's always obvious to the person who already knows the answer, eh?<br /><br />&quot;Well OF COURSE Egwene was Demandred!!!  How could you not know??&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-18 20:07:32
subject: <b>the most interesting thing about Jordan I'll agree...</b>
body:
..is his ability to play on our memory and create logic problems like these. All the facts are mentioned in passing, as if of no importance, but they are there.<br /><br />An example of this will be a FAQ I might be putting up in the next few days. It tries to place identity of the whole of Suian's Hall of the Tower using such logic. Providing that RJ is being clever and most importantly, consistent, it is actually possible. <br /><br />I used to find such things on WoT sites and wonder how they came to the conclusions they did. Well, I've written out my explanations. However, I will say that some of my assumptions are perhaps a bit dodgy....well not all that dodgy, but they are still assumptions. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 00:26:48
subject: <b>But RAFO's ....</b>
body:
... always just prove something that you could of figured out if you reread the series alot. Just go look back through the series and you'll see what I mean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 18:44:47
subject: <b>Danelle?</b>
body:
Isn't she that dreamy AES SEDAI who we meet during Elaida's takeover? <br />Excuse me, but not even Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are Aes Sedai by that point, and they are the fastest ever promoted.  If Danelle's an Aes Sedai, how could she be Masema?  Masema's only been out for a few months (if that many!) before Nynave joins the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 18:57:34
subject: <b>Asmodean</b>
body:
I thought it was Lan-Fear that killed Asmodean, not Graendal... because that happens right before Lan-Fear goes after Egwene, Aviendha, and Rand.  <br /><br />The way Asmodean died... well it wasn't Graendal's style... Lan-Fear was enraged, so I could believe that she did that.<br /><br />It only made sense to me... maybe i'm wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 04:03:38
subject: <b>What's with putting a - in Lanfear?</b>
body:
Not that it matters. I don't think it can be Lanfear, we find out from her later comments that the Finn held her, she wouldn't have escaped (by dying I suspect) so soon. Besides, she comes back in a new body and there's no way she got it that quickly. Even if she had Asmodeon wouldn't have recognised her. There's a whole theory section devoted to it though, why don't you check it out?<br /><br />As for Danelle, she's described as not having any friends and brought up far too often for my liking not to have some greater involvement. So I reckon someone captured Danelle and Semirhage was instructed to get everything the woman knew out of her. Then Mesaana got this info and took over as Danelle. After all, she has no friends (and no doubt the Black Ajah would have been instructed to pick out someone like that), so it's not as difficult to be her as with others. A better explanation can be found under Other Forsaken Theories, Mesaana = Danelle.


created: 2002-01-21 23:07:43
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
I have always thought that it was Slayer that killed him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 22:32:30
subject: <b>Wait! I've got it! And It's &quot;Obvious!&quot;</b>
body:
Demandred = Olver<br />Asmo was killed by = Elaida<br /><br />It's &quot;Obvious&quot; because there's nothing to say they didn't do it...<br /><br />But it's highly unlikely!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 13:32:17
subject: <b>Just thought I'd point out...</b>
body:
BTW, I suppose I should let everyone know that I never intended for this post to be taken completely literally; while I believe there is some truth to the idea of logical deduction in WOT, the post was more or less a satire.<br /><br />Sorry.


created: 2002-01-30 16:31:22
subject: <b>maybe a satire......</b>
body:
.....but one can find all the clues if one wishes to. just get the pdf of all the books and use the find command to search for exact people and places mentioned in the text. works like buttah.


created: 2002-01-31 07:12:40
subject: <b>Hmmm...I'd stick with the logic....</b>
body:
...I don't think satire is your thing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 17:47:11
subject: <b>Telvin &amp; The Stranger in Shadows</b>
body:
1) Thank you Telvin. Everyone else I've talked to about Asmo's death immediately says he was killed by one of the Forsaken but I never even thought of one of them. I just assumed it was Slayer straight off. This does create the question as to how Graendal knew he was dead but she could have found out.<br /><br />2) Just a minor correction to your comment Stranger. Masema is the Prophet, I assume you meant Mesaana.<br /><br />3) I'm still kind of suspicious about the Aes Sedai who are taking part in Seaine's investigation now. Thay all swore they were not either Darkfriends or BA. But in TDR Lanfear is very clear that she doesn't consider herself to be either a Darkfriend or an Aes Sedai. If Mesaana feels the same way she could have made either of those statements while still being bound to speak no untrue word.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-30 09:20:03
subject: <b>mesaana part of the purge...</b>
body:
i find it hard to beilieve that mesaana would submit herself to the use of an oath rod, what with the restraints it would put on her until removed. Also we pretty much know that an oath rod shortens ones life and we don't know how immortal the forsaken really are....


created: 2002-01-18 16:05:09
subject: <b>Yeah, but...</b>
body:
...there is going to be chaos anyways.<br /><br />Don't the prophesies all say that the Dragon Reborn or the Car'a'Carn will bring choas and war? I don't see the DO wanting to kill Fel for something that, as Morgase puts it in TEotW, &quot;every farmer can see&quot; (not exact quote).  Rand will always be at the center of choas. Period. The DO doesn't need to influence that.<br /><br />Another point. The Breaking was FAR more chaotic than the current Randland but the seals weren't broken then.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 16:12:00
subject: <b>Jordan seems to have neglected the seals recently</b>
body:
I tend to agree with the theory, but Jordan seems to have neglected the concept recently. It could be that he was breaking these seals left and right and realized that, at the rate he was going, he'd have to end the series sooner than Tor wanted him to (I don't believe he's personally responsible for the shameful marketing ploys that have been going on since LoC). It could also be because we had to wait from LoC all the way to the end of WH to get a good &quot;bang&quot; at the ending (i.e., something really significant happening), and this last book ended so abruptly that we don't even know really what the fallout will be until the next book comes out, so there is still hope that there might be mention of the seals at the beginning of &quot;Spring's Liver&quot; or whatever the next book ends up getting called.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 21:39:52
subject: <b>Falme</b>
body:
Both of the seals that were present at the battle of Falme were broken. The two intact seals were found in Rhuidean and Tear, not to mention the seal given to Rand by Taim. The other four are broken.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-18 22:57:48
subject: <b>I stated this earlier...</b>
body:
So naturally, I agree <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~I know everything, it is just that sometimes I can't completely remember some things.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 16:24:43
subject: <b>seemes improbable</b>
body:
The most Chaotic time known to Wot, was during the breaking of the world, and they didn't break then, so I don't think that it has to do with chaos.  <br /><br />Plus the whole order chaos thing is more of something you might find in an L.E Modesitt book, Jordan has always seemed more of a good vs. evil kind've guy to me.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-19 18:05:16
subject: <b>To the theory-poster....</b>
body:
....so if Fel's discovery wasn't about the seals then what?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 19:59:13
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
The entire theory was that Fel WAS talking about the seals.<br /><br />I agree with the guy (or gal I suppose) who said that it doesn't make sense that chaos is the reason the seals are weakening, as they should have weakened during the breaking.


created: 2002-01-20 01:12:07
subject: <b>3 seals are broken, not 4</b>
body:
just to point out, someone earlier mentioned that rand has 3 seals, the other 4 are broken. this is not true.  rand got 1 from tear, 1 from rhuidean.  taim gives him a 3rd. but where is the other? i seem to recall that nyneave and elayne picked it up after their battle with moggy in Tanchico.  so, they have the 4th seal.


created: 2002-01-20 17:16:20
subject: <b>that one broke</b>
body:
Nynaeve and Elayne's seal broke in the bag, on their way to salidar if I remember correctly.<br /><br />(and I am of the male persuasion for the record)<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-21 08:23:48
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
well there might have been other reasons but yeah i think that the chaos breaking the seals does have something to do with the seals.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />cornbread master<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />master of all quifuses<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-21 20:03:24
subject: <b>Maybe the seals did weaken during the breaking</b>
body:
There is nothing in the books that says that the seals did not weaken during the breaking. The theory that chaos weakens the seals actually gives us insight into why the DO would use the counterstroke he did. He planted the seed for the break-down of his prison as soon as it was being formed. The seals have probably been weakening for an entire age and are just now becoming brittle enough to break.


created: 2002-01-21 23:13:22
subject: <b>Pet Peeve</b>
body:
My Pet Peeve:<br /><br />People who insist on making theories based on so little information, that there are more relivant sentances in my little brother's 'learn to read books' than in all of WoT put togeather.<br /><br />All that we have to go on is that Fel felt he had discovered something important.  Rand and Fel's prior discussions don't even give any clue because they talked about everything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 00:09:45
subject: <b>there's no way</b>
body:
first of all how can we theorize that an emotional/event dependant responce can effect something that is inanimate?<br /><br />Secondly...<br />at Falme...Rand won, yet Moiraine discovered that two seals were broken.<br /><br />And if is was the case that Chaos would break the seals, how come the one that Nynaeve found was whole, even after she duked it out with Moghedien?  They were channeling like crazy...no holds barred...and the seal was whole...for at least a few months afterwards.  It wasn't until Nynaeve and Elayne (with Thom and Julian) showed up at Salidar that the seal was broken.  They didn't show up in Chaos...and even if they did have to scrub pots, it doesn't &quot;amount&quot; to the chaos level that was displayed when Nynaeve and Moghedien were having at it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 13:02:05
subject: <b>What is channeling but an emotional response?</b>
body:
Is seems silly at this point to say that emotions do not have an effect on things in the series. Women surrender mentally and emotionally to the source when they channel. Men fight  mentally and emotionally to control it. In Tel' Aran Rhoid the mental and emotional responses of the people there actually affect the reality of life in the real world. Or is someone dying not an effect in the real world. To be honest, when I submitted this theory I thought that the only other way that  I could come up with a more simple theory is to say that &quot;You  know what guys? I think Rand is probably the Dragon Reborn.&quot; <br /><br />I never said that choas is the only thing that can break the seals once they are weak. That's made perfectly clear by the fact that a knife was able to scrape a piece off of one.  How many time's has someone had their china break in a move? Most china doesn't scrape when you cut a steak on it. <br /><br />My theory is simply this. Chaos cumulatively weakens the seals over time. Belief and order strengthen them. Once they are weak anything that would supply sufficient destructive force will break them.


created: 2002-01-22 13:47:07
subject: <b>Chaos</b>
body:
weakens the seals further.  Some of the seals held strong longer than others, and perhaps needed more chaos to break them.  I like this theory TwoHerons.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />The Moghedien/Nynaeve struggle weakened the seals further, hence the reason it did crumble shortly thereafter.  I agree that the breaking was the most chaotic time the world has ever seen, and it seems that that <i>began</i> the weakening of all the seals, but to varying degrees. The Trolloc Wars, the War of the Second Dragon, the War of the Hundred Years, and the Aiel War (etc. etc.) probably all contributed to further weakening the seals,  causing this mass amount of chaos spreading throughout RL currently, to finally destroy the seals altogether.  It eems absolutely feasible IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 15:18:19
subject: <b>I</b>
body:
just don't buy it. RJ's a scientist and the idea that he'd treat chaos as something that could break the seals, as some sort of physical thing, just doesn't seem to hold.


created: 2002-01-24 13:05:03
subject: <b>Jeordam</b>
body:
First of all,  why can't an emotion affect an inanimate object in Jordan's world.  They can channel can't they?  <br /><br />Secondly,  I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 15:58:09
subject: <b>Entropy is a Physical Phenomenon</b>
body:
I hadn't thought about it before but I should have. Choas is physical. You can't take a college level science course with out talking about entropy which is a measurement of disorder. My biochem professor just regaled us with the gory details of how protiens should be very stable, but because of the huge entropy of an unfolded protein they are less stable than you would think, about -5 to -15 kCal/mole.


created: 2002-01-24 20:54:49
subject: <b>Fel's death</b>
body:
Fel got killed because he puzzled the answer the aelffin gave to rand when he asked them about how to clear the source. (It is in WH) The only thing that we know for sure, is that the answer is: Belief and order strengthen the seals. Have to clear the rubble...(i don't quite remember the exact note)


created: 2002-01-28 18:24:00
subject: <b>Fel's murder</b>
body:
It seems to me, that Fel was killed possibly by two reasons:<br /><br />1) He came too close to the answer on how to cleanse saidin, and<br />2) He came too close to reveal the reasons for the seals to weaken.<br /><br />So, when the spies found out what he was up to: destroyed he was, I think.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-01 10:53:09
subject: <b>Fel's death</b>
body:
I thought that Fel was killed to prevent him from answering Rand's last question.  Rand is going to break the last seals himself, and on purpose.  Rand set Fel the task of finding out why he would do that.  Fel figured it out (a clue is in the message), and he was killed before he could impart that knowledge to Rand.


created: 2002-02-02 06:41:30
subject: <b>Oh come on</b>
body:
Has nobody noticed that the timespace covered by each book is getting shorted, and that 8 and 9 covered the exact same period from different aspects? Jordan didn't rush the breaking, the seals have been collapsing, for whatever reason, at about the same rate. Haven't worked it out yet. We may be due for another breaking in 10.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 04:24:41
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
A few thoughts to support this theory...<br /><br />What purpose would the DO have for asking the Forsaken to let the Lord of Chaos rule?  Perhaps the DO thought that trying to kill Rand or turn him wasn't working out so he decided to have his minions get him free as quickly as they could and then he could kill Rand himself.<br /><br />Two places where the seals were found not broken - Rhuidean and Tear.  Both places involved the Aiel, who &quot;Believe&quot; and will help Rand restore &quot;order&quot;.  Taim (whether or not he is Demandred - he follows the DO one way or another)gave him a seal in hopes that he would gain Rand's trust and then cause so much chaos that the seal would break.<br /><br />When Elyane and Nyn found their seal, it was intact.  But after finding it they pretty much put it in a sack and didn't look at it again.  They left Tanchico in chaos and then ended up in Ghealdan which was pretty much chaos incarnate.  Then they showed up in Salidar.  Where Aes Sedia had gathered after the tower had divided for the first time in 3000 years in part because of the BA and Mesaana.  When they get to Salidar and take the seal out again, it was broken.  Even though Nyn and Elayne pack it up with wool.


created: 2002-04-17 18:03:18
subject: <b>Great Theory in its main lines</b>
body:
I think there is a big Order/Chaos thing going on here, now that you mention it.  The Pattern is Order.  The Dark One wants to destroy the Pattern.  What will exist after the Pattern is destroyed?  _Something_ must exist, or the Naeblis has no world to lord it over.  But if it's not patterned existence, Chaos is the only word I can put to it.  So if Chaos is the Dark One's province, as Order is the Creator's (He made the Pattern, after all), then it makes sense that the great disruptions of history will work in his favor.  Chaos breeds more Chaos.<br /><br />Also, what are the seals themselves made of?  Cuendillar is a constructed substance--a great feat of magical engineering--and its whole purpose is to be unbreakable, that is, to hold forever the form it is first given.  It's as close to incarnate Order as matter can get.  If it becomes weak and brittle, it makes sense to call that the influence of Chaos.<br /><br />Why didn't they break during the Breaking, or the Trolloc Wars?  TwoHerons has suggested that the effect of Chaos is cumulative, but that doesn't work.  In Book 1, one of the seals broke a good knife like kindling; in Book 5, the seals could be peeled with a knife.  In the long view of history, with things like the Breaking in the past, the chaos that accumulated between Book 1 and Book 5 must have been infinitesimally small, and not nearly enough to account for this dramatic difference in the integrity of the cuendillar.  My guess is that the seals have always become weak during periods of great turmoil, but they were in safer places before.  But that might not be the best theory either, since I doubt there _was_ a safe place _anywhere_ during the Breaking...  Unless... maybe some of the seals did break in history past, and are just being found now.  How many of the broken seals were found that way from the start, instead of found whole?<br /><br />That's not enough reason to kill Fel, though...  Knowing the connection isn't going to make Rand any more eager to stop the chaos.  He wanted to do that anyway.  As someone else said, Fel must have been about to make a deeper revelation.<br /><br />Florian


created: 2002-07-15 05:16:31
subject: <b>Are you so sure that it's entirely bad thing?</b>
body:
It seems to me, that everytime after goodguys have won a battle there have been broken seal. Maybe all of them have to be broken before Rand could close the bore completely. Dark One seems to have been quite influental even when seals are inplace, weak as they are. I really think Fel's answer was that as long as the old seals are in place a new seal cannot be put into place. Rand would have to break the seals in order to win.<br />Rand is a personfiation of both order and chaos. His presense brings chaos, but his will creates order out of chaos. What the DO seems to be doing is undermining Rand's will so that he cannot create order, but keeping him alive and free. Thus leaving only chaos.<br />


created: 2002-01-22 14:20:44
subject: <b>First post!</b>
body:
Where does it say Joline is Black Ajah?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 15:09:56
subject: <b>Dunno about the Black Ajah, BUT</b>
body:
I think Teslyn will in some way end up helping Egwene. Remember, she's Red and Egwene doesn't have any Reds yet. And was there something about needin a Sitter from every Ajah.<br /><br />Wouldn't it be nice if Teslyn being Red and voting for Egwene would help to pull the mat from under Elaida...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 15:14:27
subject: <b>It wouldn't be surprising</b>
body:
Eliada did make her (Teslyn) resign her chair after being a Sitter for the Reds for 15 years and she's not exactly in a hurry to send info to the White Tower.


created: 2002-01-22 16:20:19
subject: <b>Not proof</b>
body:
Just because Teslyn is in no apparent hurry to aid Elaida does not maker her Black Ajah. Remember, she just had a job she had for 15 years taken from her by this woman. Aes Sedai may be able to channel, but they are still people too and are subject to holding grudges.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 16:36:38
subject: <b>No one</b>
body:
is accusing Teslyn of being Black Ajah, it's Joline who it has been said is and no one seems to remember this.<br /><br />The reason Teslyn isn't giving Elaida the info is to show her independence and of course to get back at her for taking away her chair.


created: 2002-01-22 16:54:14
subject: <b>Oops</b>
body:
Sorry, I took your mention of Teslyn's indifference towards Elaida as an accusation.<br /><br />You are right that Joline is the one in question. However, unless someone can offer a quote or some other proof that she is Black Ajah, then there is hardly any question at all.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 18:20:57
subject: <b>Joline can't take mat in a fight</b>
body:
i don't think one or even two Black warders could even think about killing mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />, even if he wasn't an essential character, and as for just a knife, remember when Mat's<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> darkfriend aiel maiden in rhiudea? she was dead very quickly...


created: 2002-01-22 18:47:35
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Teslyn and Joline are pretty much the only Aes Sedai around Mat at the moment. But there is a third, Edesina, and frankly, even assuming the Aes Sedai Mat will have to choose between are among those with him, it's far from clear which two they would be, and which one of them actually is the &quot;correct&quot; choice.<br /><br />Joline has not been said to be Black as far as I can remember. And it was pretty much said straight out that it was Teslyn's bad will against Elaida rather than any good intentions towards Elayne and the others that made her act the way she did.<br /><br />Furthermore, it's still very hard to see how something so big and important could come out of a choice between Joline and Teslyn. If indeed Joline is Black I guess there could be something in it, but before that is established, we are still pretty clueless on the subject. <br /><br />No, I can't see that your theory holds much water. Maybe it turns out to be true, but as of now, it's just as probable (well, really moreso) that it doesn't. We're still in a stage of read-and-find-out on this...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 19:47:19
subject: <b>Not a single word proof that Joline is Black</b>
body:
I haven't read a single word to convince me that Joline is BA.It is clear for the theory author but not for the readers.And even if she is black what could she do to Mat?<br />No,I don't believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 20:04:04
subject: <b>If Joline was Black...</b>
body:
I can see something like this happening: Something occurs regarding the White Tower conflict, where Teslyn and Joline takes different standpoints, or find themselves in different problems. Mat then comes in a position where he can chose to go along the ideas of Teslyn (who is Red, I might add) and those of Joline (or come in a position where he must chose to help one of them). If he goes along with Teslyn, even if it doesn't look so initially, Egwene takes the Tower, the Blacks is thrown out and eventually Tarmon Gaidon is won. If he goes with Joline (now assumed Black), the Blacks take over the White Tower (under Alviarin for example), and eventually hands the DO the Wheel of Time...<br /><br />Now, since I can't see that Joline is Black, this is quite far-fetched. But it wouldn't surprise me, would it turn out something like that (whoever is Black, and whoever it's advantegeous for Mat to follow/help etc etc). But we'll have to RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 20:56:36
subject: <b>Joline is not Black</b>
body:
People think Joline is Black because of the comment of Mat finding her note under his pillow.<br /><br />But this is NOT a lie. This is a classic Aes Sedai statement.<br /><br />&quot;All debts are cancelled once you get me outside Ebou Dar&quot;<br /><br />She did not say &quot;Yes I left the note under your pillow&quot;. <br /><br />She wasn't lying, just avoiding the question in the hope that Mat will be debt-bound in getting her outta Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Also when taking Teslyn into consideration with Egwene's troubles you have to take into account that she is thousands of miles<br />away and cannot 'Travel'. Most likely Mat is headed to Illian to use Tuon as a hostage to stop the Illian invasion. (and the HoV legend)<br />Therefore it would take about 30 days? unless they steal a to'raken to get there and 5-10 days to get to TV by boat.<br />The Tower problem could be over by then????<br />


created: 2002-01-22 21:10:23
subject: <b>I don't</b>
body:
know exactly where Mat intends to go, back to where he thinks the rebel Aes Sedai are I suspect as he has Aes Sedai with him and he'll want to rejoin the Band, but PLEASE don't let Semirhage or anyone catch them escaping and keep them in Ebou Dar, I am fed up with that city.


created: 2002-01-22 22:14:51
subject: <b>Why Joline isn't Black, and Why Mat thinks she is</b>
body:
Joline isn't black.  This is a quote from her PoV:<br />ACoS, chapter 17:<br /><br />&quot;... the heat made her afraid.  The Dark One was touching the world, and<br />their only hope a boy who was running wild.&quot;<br />     Her frame of reference pits mentions the &quot;Dark One&quot; not the &quot;Great Lord&quot; as all other darkfriends call it.  <br /><br />     But Mat most likely thinks Joline is black:<br />WH<br />&quot;And that meant he was mistaken about who he owed the debt to.  He made his leave without calling Joline on her lie- a lie even if only by letting his mistake pass- and<br />he left without telling Mistress Anan, either.  It was his problem. It made him feel sick.  He wished he had never found out.&quot;<br />      Mat mentions the word lie in his thoughts.  Anytime, lie, is mentioned in association with Aes Sedai this can only mean one thing: black Ajah.  So RJ is setting up an interesting dynamic here.  Joline isn't black, but Mat thinks that she is.  I wonder how Jordan is going to use this in future plotlines, and I have no doubt that he will.  Any ideas?<br />     By the way, I think, and I don't know if it is my original thought or not, that Rand and Tuon are the 2 Aes Sedai that Mat has to weigh.  Although they are not technically Aes Sedai, they can both channel, and it is possible that may both be Aes Sedai in the future.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 23:39:44
subject: <b>Two Aes Sedai</b>
body:
The possibility that the two &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; may actually just refer to two people is an idea I have had before, but sure convolutes the plot. I do like the thought that maybe he would have to choose between Tuon and Rand, but I don't remember Tuon having the ability to channel. I am wrong? I'll have to check.<br /><br />Another thing about Joline probably not being black is that she has two warders. It has been discussed before that having warders, especially more than one, complicates the issue of being black. Both warders would also have to be darkfriends, but that's always a possibility<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 23:46:53
subject: <b>I don't think Joline is Black</b>
body:
But she could have two Warders and be Black. Another Green/Black sister, Asne (one of Liandrin's lot) has four Warders, one of whom who is a Darkfriend, and three who she can control. So it's possible, but she didn't actually lie so she isn't. <br />But I do agree with the rest of this theory. This fits in with my own theory - to be elected Amyrlin Seat, you need ALL the Ajahs to support you. Both Egwene and Elaida only had five, so neither is technically the Amyrlin Seat. However if Egwene can get three Red Sitters to support her, or vote retrospectively for her, then she will legally be the Amyrlin and Elaida will be totally out. (And the Saildar Hall will have fits. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) Pevara is one possibility, Teslyn another (if, say, a current Red sister was found to be BA and she got reinstated) and then the third would probably swing. So Mat's choice between Teslyn and Joline for some reason could be very important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 08:30:11
subject: <b>Seven Ajahs</b>
body:
There are seven ajahs, not six. (Blue, Brown, Gray, Green, Red, White, and Yellow) Someone stated that Egwene and Elaida only have 5 ajahs behind them, but in actuality they have 6.<br /><br />Also, as for Joline's Warders, I think the argument there was not that she couldn't be Black because she had warders, but that two Warders against Mat wouldn't be a fair fight (they'd need at least four Warders to have a chance)<br /><br />As for Tuon, she cannot channel YET. In Winter's Heart Chapter 14 &quot;What a Veil Hides&quot;, Tuon thinks about a damane she trained, giving her the ability to wear the a'dam bracelet. What we've learned throughout the series is that sul'dam (women who wear the a'dam bracelet), is that they have the spark in them to learn to channel, only they cannot reach it unguided. So Tuon can channel, she'll just need help the first time.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-23 08:53:38
subject: <b>Egwene's</b>
body:
gonna have a LOT of difficulty getting the Reds behind her when they discover that Suian, who has been helping and supporting Egwene all along, spread the lie that the Red Ajah forced Logain to pronounce himself as the Dragon Reborn, which is one of the main reasons for the rebellion.<br /><br />I'm not familiar with Tower law, but if she does indeed need the support of only 3 Reds, she's well on her way. Firstly she should have Teslyn, then there's that Red who hates Elaida, the one Logain captured and finally the one who's searching for the BA in the Tower. She seems reasonable enough to turn on Elaida.


created: 2002-01-23 10:08:10
subject: <b>On the other hand</b>
body:
It would not be too suprising if we see the disappearance of the Red Ajah. Remember that saidin is clean. Once the partially mad men roaming the world right now as Asha'man die off, any man who channels will be no worse off than an Aes Sedai. If they grow into acceptance by the world, then what purpose would the Red Ajah hold? Their job is to protect the world from male channelers, but there is no more serious threat.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-23 11:02:27
subject: <b>ummmm</b>
body:
Siuan didn't spread the lie- she talked to Logain- Logain spread the lie.  As I recall, she convinced him about the red ajah story being his key to revenge, and he just elaborated from there.  We don't know if she ever mentioned it to any aes sedai before Logain did.  Am I mistaken?<br /><br />These are all very useful theories, it'll be interesting to see what RJ has in store for Mat &amp; the ladies- I hadn't remembered the bit about Tuon training a Damane- I thought she just speculated- what a twist for Mat that his wife will probably learn to channel!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Wolf Sister of the White Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The way is clear, the light is good,<br />I have no fear, nor no one should.<br />The woods are just trees, the trees are just wood.<br />Credit to Sondhiem <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 11:35:07
subject: <b>Various...</b>
body:
(from Egwene's dream)<br />&quot;Mat, weighing two huge Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.. She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot;<br /><br />I don't see that Teslyn OR Joline are 'huge'.  And, unless proof shows, we can assume that Joline is NOT Black Ajah.  I don't even think Mat thinks this; his feeling 'sick' certainly could have as much to do with his general distaste of the loopholed dishonesty of Aes Sedai -- especially when that dishonesty just caused him to be used. <br /><br />My guess is Egwene and Semirhage are the two 'Aes Sedai'<br /><br />Egwene has previous dreams of Mat racing against time to rescue her.  And don't forget that Semirhage USED to be Aes Sedai, so the dream may still qualify for her.  And it makes more sense.  Both are certainly 'huge'.  Where Semirhage's influence comes from her contact with Tuon.  And assuredly, Semirhage being the classicly devious bi--er, meanie that she is...she'll have some form of control (by the Power, of course) over Tuon.  That would weigh heavily with Mat.


created: 2002-01-23 11:39:02
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
I'm pretty certain that Suian has spread the lie. I seem to remember that the only reason they believed the Red/Logain thing is because Suian told them outright and they think she can't lie, they don't realise that being stilled frees you from the oaths.


created: 2002-01-23 11:44:46
subject: <b>You've</b>
body:
added the first huge there, the actual quote is:<br /><br />&quot;Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot;


created: 2002-01-23 12:31:59
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
Egwene dreaming of Mat racing towards her is in all probability explained by him trying to save Egwene from the Black Ajah in Tear.  Unless she has had that dream again.<br /><br />//i\<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Omnia Tempus Revelat<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 13:00:19
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
First, Siuan spreading the lie is not entirely true. She said that Logain had told her this. Which he had. After she had instructed him to it. So it's fully possible it will come out that Logain lied, without it being traced to Siuan lying. It could simply be explained by Logain wanting revenge on the Reds. Especially if Siuan can continue her usual manipulating self without the other Aes Sedai catching on, will make this scenario quite likely. And even if that's not the case, the choice of Egwene was meant to be a neutral one, NOT being connected to either of the two factions. Except for Egwene, Siuan and Leane, no one seems to realize the strong connection between the three, why Egwene actually might be considered an undependent, and therefore not falling even if Siuan is.<br /><br />Secondly, it's not the Aes Sedai themselves that have to be huge, but it's the choice of them that should make a huge difference. Therefore a choice of Teslyn or Joline might very much mean a huge difference, for example on the Tower conflict, even if Teslyn and Joline does not seem so important taken out of context. As is talked about above, Teslyn being a Red could mean Mat chosing her would pave the way for Egwene, while another choice might pave the way for the Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 14:49:05
subject: <b>Myrelle</b>
body:
knows about Suian at least if not Leanne. So that's a bit of a worry, even if she has sworn an oath of fealty to Egwene.<br /><br />I'm a little bit confused as to why the sisters who have rebelled are taking Logain's word as truth.


created: 2002-01-23 17:25:03
subject: <b>Aes Sedai fealty</b>
body:
...why they're taking it as the truth?  Because it's handy.  They rebelled before knowing about Logain, or even knowing Suian was alive.  But they've got a problem.  They look like rebels and will be treated as traitors -- UNLESS they have a compelling reason.  The Logain thing gives them that.<br /><br />And be careful; it may not even be a lie.  Whereas some Red Ajah have expressed outrage, others have suppressed guilty thoughts. Certainly it wouldn't be well-known Ajah-wide.  If nothing less, Aes Sedai know how to keep secrets and that would be a biggie.<br /><br />As for the 'huge' thing...odd.  I copy and pasted it from Egwene's view.  And I partly agree with someone's comment about it being something else (Tear).  Egwene's and Min's viewings all seem fairly immediately resolved.  Most of them, at any rate (within the same book or next).<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-23 18:14:43
subject: <b>Wait, wait, wait . . . Are we certain Logain lied?</b>
body:
Where is it written in the books that Logain made up his story about the Reds forcing him to proclaim himself as the DR.  I don't recall reading that this story was infact completely false and Logain's only means of revenge.  I took it for truth.  <br /><br />Please supply me with a quote proving that the Reds did NOT deliberately SET UP a False Dragon just to tear him down.


created: 2002-01-23 18:39:31
subject: <b>We know that Siuan told Logain the lies he then used.</b>
body:
Of course, that doesn't mean that they beyond all reasonable doubt weren't true in the first place (without Siuan knowing that). But there's no reason to believe that. It simply doesn't make sense. The Reds hate male channelers wih a vengeance. The only possible scenario where they would actually set up one themselves would be if they were on the brink of extinction as an Ajah. They are not. Quite the contrary in fact. They are the biggest Ajah of them all, and this is a time where there are so many false Dragons proclaiming themselves of own account, that making some up would just be ridiculous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 23:00:07
subject: <b>which witch is which?</b>
body:
I don't think Joline is Black Ajah, she doesn't lie, she is just terrified but is also an Aes Sedai (meaning that she is used to grasping anything and turning it to her best advantage). If she thinks that Mat is helping her escape enslavement because he thinks she left the girls a note, do you think she would risk being left behind because she told the truth straight out? There must be Aes Sedai game shows used to hone truth twisting skills... <br />Teslyn is fairly straightforward about being ticked off at Elaida's 'unseating', and I think that Aes Sedai are just as likely to hold a grudge. But it is handy that she is a Red, allied with 'Little Tower' allies. This looks like a step towards handing full tower power to Egwene. <br />As for the Reds being eliminated now that the male Source is clean, tradition doesn't allow AS to change Ajahs, so unless all the Reds are somehow killed there's no future for them... Unless they found the red tower, or (more likely) the Ajah will change it's focus.


created: 2002-01-23 23:15:48
subject: <b>New Ages Bring Change</b>
body:
With all the other traditions throughout the books changing (Aiel Wise One traditions, White Tower traditions, etc.), it could be entirely possible that Reds can change Ajah. After all, we have seen a former Blue switch to Green.<br /><br />On the other hand, perhaps the Reds will merge with the Asha'man somehow. Perhaps they'll be Warders to the Reds or vice versa.<br /><br />This is all merely speculation.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-24 21:11:48
subject: <b>you forgot</b>
body:
You forgot that, even if Mat must choose between 2 aes'sedai, nowhere is it said that one of them ought to be BA, or a forsaken. It could be as simple as choosing between rescuing Teslyn or Joline. Let's say that Mat choose Teslyn, then Joline die, and Teslyn help Egwene. Now if Mat choose Joline, Teslyn die, and in doing so, she cannot help Egwene, who failed and get executed. (anyway, i don't think that Mat's choice is between those two)


created: 2002-01-27 23:13:51
subject: <b>Egwene and Semirhage?</b>
body:
I found the comment about Egwene and Semirhage interesting. The poster said that because of &quot;Anath's&quot; influence over Tuon, Mat might be torn. But consider this: Tuon has the ability to channel, thus proven in Winter's Heart when Jordan makes a point of mentioning that she enjoys training marath'damane. As we all know by now, damane have the spark naturally, and sul'dam can learn how to channel.<br />So, if I were to stretch the comment about Egwene and Semirhage a bit further, Mat could be caught between Egwene and Tuon, in more ways than one, as Egwene as the Amyrlin Seat and Tuon is the heir apparent to the Seanchan Empire.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 07:00:54
subject: <b>Egwene and Moiraine</b>
body:
Well, this post produced some speculation, so I'd like to add another. I have no problem seeing that the Aes Sedai in question are in fact Egwene and Moiraine. Something happens, so that Mat get the choice of either going to the Tower to help Egwene, or try to rescue Moiraine. It's in fact the most natural solution of them all, although of course it's not for certain in any way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 13:38:21
subject: <b>back up.....</b>
body:
I confess to being somewhat confused. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  How do we know that Joline is Black ajah????  I must have missed that....<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 14:02:59
subject: <b>Black and Red</b>
body:
I think they think that Joline is Black because of a particular quote. <br /><br />*~*~*~*~*<br /><br />&quot;The note asking me to warn Nynaeve and Elayne,&quot; he said slowly. He licked his lips and added, &quot;The one you left on my pillow.&quot;<br /><br />She flicked a hand dismissively, but her eyes, focused on his face, never blinked. &quot;All debts between us are settled [when I'm out of the city]&quot;<br /><br />Mat swallowed hard. The note had been stuck into his coat pocket somehow, not left on his pillow...He made his leave without calling Joline on her lie-a lie even if only by letting his mistake pass [and left].<br /><br />*~*~*~*~*<br /><br />She didn't really lie, and I don't think she's Black. I could be wrong. But it would be interesting if the 'two Aes Sedai' he has to weigh are analogies for the White Tower Aes Sedai and the Rebels. See- I remember some place Egwene saying that he never broke a promise. <br /><br />He promised to get Joline &amp; Teslyn out of Ebou Dar, <i>and</i> he promised to get Elayne to...I think it was Andor. So...if those two promises come into conflict, he might have to choose...and if something happens that makes the Aes Sedai he's rescuing as important as Elayne et al -say, they save his life, or one of them bonds him (with or without his permission wouldn't matter- he'd still have to protect whichever of them did it)- than it really would be a conflict for him.<br /><br />My point is simply that the 'two Aes Sedai' could be two <i>groups</i> of Aes Sedai, not just single women or men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 18:48:27
subject: <b>Siuan did lie; Joline didn't</b>
body:
In PoD when discussing the Oath Rod, in the context of whether or not people should lie, and the occasional usefulness of lies, Egwene says that without Siuan's lie about Logain and the Red Ajah, blah blah blah. Siuan never contradicts her and when responding with her own feelings and personal compromise about lying, she tells Egwene how she only refrains from lying to Egwene and Bryne. While arguing for the 3 Oaths, and against lying, she almost certainly would have corrected Egwene if she had kept the letter of the First Oath and avoided a lie. She also mentions contemplating lying to influence Egwene. This implies that she hasn't or wouldn't have refrained from lying to others to influence them. Finally, it has to be a lie, since she would have corrected Egwene if the Reds had been setting up false Dragons for real (if they had and the mysterious Red Ajah scandal from 15-20 yrs. ago was part of that, Siuan would have known from her access to the secret records. She would not have overlooked recent history in favor of the millenia old stuff she keeps refering too, considering the events in New Spring, and the fact that she would have been looking for any clues that the Black Ajah or even Red where close to finding the Dragon Reborn.  Any kind of cover-up involving Reds and Dragons would have drawn her attention when she investigated the secret histories)and she would not have needed to lie, and would have been able to shade the facts to suit her needs. Sinc Siuan admitted (by not denying) the lie, and Elaida has said it isn't true (and she was involved somehow in the real scandal, so she'd know) Siuan did in fact lie and Logain knows the truth.  If he is loyal to Rand, he'd be likely to share that fact if he had the chance. He hates all Aes Sedai, not just Red's and don't forget, the Amyrlin leads the circle for gentling, so he would probably not mind embarassing her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 16:11:09
subject: <b>Forgot about Mat not breaking his promises...</b>
body:
Good comment by Crazy Aes Sedai about how the balance scales might be weighing two of his <i>promises</i>. But the logistics of Mat getting all the way to Caemlyn (since I doubt Elayne is leaving anytime soon) with Joline and Teslyn and then being forced to choose between them just doesn't work. Plus, by the time he'll run into Elayne he'll already have fulfilled the promise to J &amp; T.<br /><br />But still, I think this little sub-plot would better suit the greater story if the AS he chooses between are individuals rather than two groups...but we'll have to wait and see, also known as RAFOing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 07:14:55
subject: <b>WHAT?</b>
body:
Joline is definitely not black - theres a passage from when she's in Ebou Dar in book 7 or 8 when theres a short passage from her point of view.  She makes some comment in her thoughts like 'the light preserve us' or something. Also, Teslyn was with the group that ousted Siuan as well as Joline.  If we're looking for strangeness in the Sisters with Mat, we should look at Edesina - Joline, a known light-following-person says&quot;I heard that she...&quot; in a context suggesting that it was something very odd, ie not being a rebel, which she and Teslyn come right out and say &quot;she do be a rebel but i will no leave her&quot; etc.  Maybe not, but its a better idea than this one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 15:10:43
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
...it seems a little strange that anyone close to a ta'veren takes on something of their properties. You could be right though.<br /><br />As for Egwene, I firmly believe she has a certain Talent. I don't know which book, but in the Glossary of one of the books it mentions a Talent that replicates that of ta'veren when in extremely close proximity to that person who has the Talent. I see absolutely no reason for RJ to include this if one of the characters didn't have this ability and I think Egwene does. You point out the Talmanes example, and I'm sure that around the time that Lan is discovered and Myrelle takes an oath of fealty to Egwene Suian says something like &quot;I might even think you're ta'veren myself if I didn't know better&quot;.<br /><br />I should really check these things though...or someone else can!


created: 2002-01-22 15:23:05
subject: <b>It's a literary device</b>
body:
The whole ta'veren thing is a literary device to help with the all important suspention of disbelief.  It explains away those Charlies Angels moments where everything that's need falls out of the sky--literally or figuratively.  It would be one heck of a lot harder to swallow the books without the whole ta'veren thing.  Nice device, RJ.<br /><br />---&gt; Yeti


created: 2002-01-22 16:27:34
subject: <b>critic of the critic</b>
body:
doesn't anyone remember that min started viewing a LONG time before she met rand or even moraine (sorry about spelling i'm a bit out of it right now)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 17:02:43
subject: <b>I agree,mostly</b>
body:
There is a lot of reference, in the first two books in particular, that all of the 'main' characters (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Lan, and Thom at least) were important to the pattern.  Moiraine thought that Nynaeve and Egwene would be important to the pattern when going to the EotW.  Min declared that Elayne was part of the pattern (one of those who she she's the stars around).  Elayne, Egwene, and Min felt Rand tugging at them (Nynaeve didn't) in Falme.<br /><br />I disagree that the talents of these &quot;almost ta'veren&quot; is due to ta'veren, though.  <br /><br />One would have to think that Nynaeve is ta'veren at least part of the time (she might be at a level that Nicola can't sense).  Way too many strange things happen around Nynaeve.  (Many of the same things that have happened to Rand and is attributed to ta'veren also happened to Nynaeve.)  <br /><br />There are four things that I can think of off the top of my head that suggest Nynaeve may be ta'veren.  First, Birgitte talks to Nynaeve.  When she talked to Perrin she attributed it to ta'veren.  Maybe that interaction made her more prone to talking to Nynaeve.  Second, Nynaeve found Galad and the prophet on the same day in Samara.  This lead to mass chaos in a way that is reminiscent of how Rand caused chaos in Cairhien in tGH.  Third just when Nynaeve capture Moggy and she needs a way to control her, Elayne finds that she can create an a'dam.  (Just what is the chance of finding the a'dam AND having someone nearby who can learn how to create one and is willing to try to learn.)  Fourth and most telling is the way the flock of birds distract Moggy just has she tries to balefire Nynaeve.  (This is very similar to how an assasin (just one book later in PoD) tries to kill Rand but fails.  In addition, at that very moment Lan arrives to save her!  This event is crucial in that it saved Nynaeve's life AND broke her block.  (How much more ta'veren can you get!)  We know that Mat was in the same city-but there is no evidence that Mat's ta'veren influence extends so far.  I could go on. There is the Sea Folk raker that took them to Tanchico for instance.  (What other time have we seen Sea Folk being kind to AS.)  Then there is the grey man bolt that missed Nynaeve and Egwene.  (This is in a direct analogy to the one the just missed Rand and the Amyrillin in tGH.  Both of these are probably ta'veren effects.)<br /><br />Finally, I would like to repeat that I liked your theory.  I think it will stimulate a lot of interesting discussions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 17:38:04
subject: <b>I can't rember where...</b>
body:
I just wrote a paper comparing the Wheel of TIme to the Hindu Samsara and somewhere- either book or guide- i found the basic pricipals surrounding Ta'veren.  I think that THe idea of Ta'veren encompasses the idea that they will grant...emphisis, to those threads around them.  Rand had a strong enough pull to create two more Ta'veren in the pattern, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same emphisis was given to the other main characters through association.  Like you said, enough has happened that thay have obviously been given some special treatment by the pattern.  Overall, I think the mini-Ta'veren effect is part of the pattern, associated with the Strongest Ta'veren and planned by RJ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 17:52:49
subject: <b>re: critic of the critic</b>
body:
This is in response to shadowight79's post above...<br /><br />I don't think that a character would meet other ta'veren &amp; then develop his/her talents.  A character would exude similarities to ta'vereness based upon his/her thread's proximity to the threads of ta'verens.  This has nothing to do with meeting of ta'veren or being around ta'veren.  <br /><br /><br />- Eriya  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 19:53:56
subject: <b>I disagree...</b>
body:
Besides Egwene possibly possessing that rare Ta'veren Talent, I don't think that the theory hold water because if everyone that came into contact with Rand, Mat, and Perrin become Ta'veren themselves... then why is being Ta'veren unique?  And if you say that they become Ta'veren for a certain amount of time after being around Ta'veren... that still doesn't work because many times, the characters are away from each other for a LONG time, and they do do incredible things on their own.<br /><br />Nynaeve and Elayne picked up on reversing severing and creating Ter'angreal respectively, upon their own accord (this could be Egwene's Talent working).<br />Min had her viewings WAY before she met the Three.<br /><br />The Three Ta'veren have the 'tugging' thing going for them... which proves that they themselves are Ta'veren, and not the people that are being 'tugged.'<br /><br />And I believe that one of the Three can be killed off...  Proof: When Rand uses the portal stone to travel to the Aiel Waste, the entire group lives alternate realities (kind of like the tv series Sliders).  During this, Rand lives out a few lives where he does die, and others where he doesn't learn to channel or fulfill any of the prophecies.<br /><br />The Ta'veren 'literary device' is definitely a way to explain the not-so-ordinary things that will happen to people. <br /><br />I don't want this to sound like I'm totally berating the person who put up the original theory.  So I apologize if it is... I'm just tryin to make some interesting conversation.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> TrainerMikePSK@Hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 21:42:59
subject: <b>Maybe you could actually find a reference to this</b>
body:
If RJ hasn't already I think he will put in some line about how the strands Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, &amp;ct are interwoven with those of the ta'veren.  This is just off the top of my head, but maybe there are parralells between when one of the ta'veren does something ta'veren like and when one of the other major characters does something ta'veren like.


created: 2002-01-22 23:28:38
subject: <b>Not ta'veren</b>
body:
I don't think anyone but Rand, Mat and Perrin are ta'veren. Remember how strong Rand is as a ta'verne. The ENTIRE Age Lace is being woven around him not just a small portion. Also, the Pattern can control ta'veren (or manipulate them) for it's own purposes. I think a similar thing happens with threads that are close to ta'veren. Just because Nyneave is all over the place doesn't mean that her thread stopped being close to Rand and the same goes with the other characters. Basically it's easier for the Pattern to manipulate Elayne than it is to manipulate a farmer Rand or the others ever met.<br /><br />So, the amazing things Nyneave does or the insane things that happen around her aren't because she is ta'veren but because Rand is ta'veren. The Pattern assumed Rand would need her so she was manipulated by it to do amazing things. The ability for Aes Sedai to Travel, heal stilled or gentled people, the making of ter'angreal, Egwene being Amyerlin Seat, and Elayne being a Queen all help Rand in the end don't they. Rand being half Aiel allowed the Pattern to manipulate them so he would be Car'a'carn. Rand always says he will use people when he has to. He is using people and his friends thousands of miles away without realizing it. Also, the Pattern can manipulate anyone it wants but I assume it is easier and less hectic using ta'veren as a focus. Also, Nyneave can't be ta'veren at all because a novice, Nicola, has the Talent to see ta'veren and so does Siuan Sanche and they haven't said anything.


created: 2002-01-23 03:19:29
subject: <b>Stole my upcoming theory! Kinda.</b>
body:
This is somewhat similar to the theory that I have had bouncing around in my head for a while, but slightly different.  I've been getting the impression that Ta'verens are like magnetic threads (without the polarity).<br /><br />It has been seen that Rand is the strongest of the Ta'verens and has the ability to draw to him what is needed.  The other Ta'verens, being &quot;magnetic&quot; themselves are most affected by the pull as demonstrated by both Perrin's and Mat's knowledge when they are needed by Rand.  But as seen by the flashing colours in the most recent books, Rand is also pulled towards Mat and Perrin.<br /><br />Like wires connected to a magnet display magnetic qualities without being magnetic themselves, the other people around Ta'verens (especially those whose lives are most intertwined with them) show Ta'veren type characteristics without actually being Ta'verens themselves.<br /><br />Talmanes, being a smarter guy than is outwardly apparent, noticed the Ta'veren effect around Egwene even though Egwene is not one.  The great coincidences that occur with Aviendha, Elayne, and Nynaeve are mighty suspicious.  Further wires in contact with wires that are in contact with magnets will become magnetic, just weaker.<br /><br />The shear mass of threads (wires) in the pattern force the Ta'veren into a particular path, just as a light but powerful magnet is forced to move to a large heavy block of metal, not the large metal to the magnet.<br /><br />So macroscopically, the Ta'veren is forced to conform to the many threads of the pattern, but microscopically the individual threads are forced to move to the needs of the Ta'veren.<br /><br />Since the three Ta'veren in this story spent so long in Emonds Field, the effect was very contained.  As the Ta'veren have been traveling and meeting more people they are essentially binding the whole world to their cause.<br /><br />Since Robert Jordan likes the theory of resonance (i.e. linking of female channelers) it may be that it requires the resonance of the three Ta'veren to guarantee the final victory.  A single Ta'veren in the form of Lewis Therin was insufficient to completely seal off the D.O.  A single Ta'veren in the form of Artur Hawkwing was not sufficient protection against Ishamael twisting him.<br /><br />That is kinda the short and simple of my Ta'veren theory, let me know if I should develop this into a full theory, or if I should just leave it at this. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Geer<br />--<br />The summation of all forces must be zero.


created: 2002-01-23 11:36:35
subject: <b>A Matter of Semantics</b>
body:
In response to Art Pendragon's post about the other charaters not being ta'veren:<br /><br />If the effects of ta'veren are random, fortuitous events happening around them at the right time to cause the pattern to move it the direction that it wants to, what is the difference between Nyn being relationally, or secondarily ta'veren, and the pattern needing her to fullfill Rand's ta'vereness? <br /><br />Yes, Rand, Perrin and Mat are the ta'veren, and Nicola can see them as such. However, Rand doesn't create the random effects around him directly, they are a result of the wheel weaving the pattern around him in such a drastic way - side effects if you will. In the same way, the &quot;ta'veren&quot; effects around Nyn, Elayne, Egwene, et. al. aren't caused by them, but rather by their proximity in the pattern (if not neccesarily geographically) to R, M &amp; P. This could be called either being required by the actual ta'veren, or secondarily ta'veren themselves.<br /><br />My $0.02<br /><br />Rob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 17:08:54
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I know Rob, I was basically just restating some other theories without using 'almost ta'veren'in it because it put the wrong picture in my head.


created: 2002-01-23 17:14:50
subject: <b>What about Moiraine?</b>
body:
I agree that it sounds very interesting, but I must disagree only a little, because so far as far as facts go, Moiraine is as good as dead, and she is close to Rand (technically speaking).  Otherwise nicely done.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> The mighty and worthless reader of random funny things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you don't already know what it means, I'm not going to tell you.   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Dovie'andi se tovya sagain ... Time to roll the dice.&quot; <br />--Mat Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 17:44:22
subject: <b>So they have a lock on Ta'veren-ness?</b>
body:
Maybe I'm way off mark here, but could it be that with Moiraine and Suian and Loial and everyone else getting all hot and bothered about Rand, Mat and Perrin being ta'veren they didn't notice that Egwene, Nynaeve and maybe Min and Aviendha were ta'veren, too?  Can only men be ta'veren? I mean, people (most notably RJ himself) can't seem to stop talking about how stubborn these women are, and when you put that fact together with the fact that the ta'veren can turn peoples' opinions on their heads, the only way to explain why Nynaeve isn't washing Mat's dirty clothes with a smile on her face is that she's ta'veren, too.<br /><br />This whole &quot;pulling threads&quot; theory seems to overlook the more simple and probable explanation: that the major female characters in WoT are also ta'veren.<br /><br />Just please, please don't tell me Faile is ta'veren, too.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-23 18:02:32
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Suian, Nicola and Logain all have the Talent of being able to see ta'veren and all the people you've mentioed have been seen by at least one of them. So no, they aren't ta'veren.<br /><br />The theory is a bit strange. The reason that Nynaeve and all the rest do these amazing things is because they are in a ta'veren's pull, that's true. But that doesn't make them some sort of mini-ta'veren. The people who do something miraculous like falling out of a building and suffering no injuries when Rand's around aren't ta'veren are they? Knifes that fall in a prefect circle aren't ta'veren.


created: 2002-01-24 07:33:22
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
This is an answer to three in a boat's post. We saw that a man is needed to heal a stilled woman, and a woman to heal a gentled man, well, maybe it is the same thing with that ta'veren thing. We have not heard of women ta'veren, but there is also no proof that there is a male with the talent to see ta'veren in the black tower.<br /> <br />   The Lord Of Dragoons<br />  The Last Of The Logman<br />Brother Of The Mighty Evil<br />


created: 2002-01-24 10:12:38
subject: <b>Not Ta'veren</b>
body:
Logain can see ta'veren and doesn't have Min's gift. He specifically says he saw an aura around Rand, not anything his head or other signs. He see's ta'veren.<br /><br />The reason I avoided almost ta'veren when describing the woman is that it implies that the Pattern is weaving itself around them and that is why important events always occur around them. With Mat and Perring that is what happens. But the woman and other characters are caught in their whirlpool. The effects are the same but the causes are very different.


created: 2002-01-24 12:59:11
subject: <b>Great plot device</b>
body:
I agree with Yeti.  Good theory also.  Guilty by association, I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 13:01:34
subject: <b>Loial can also see ta'veren</b>
body:
I think Loial can most likely also see ta'veren.  He, afterall, is the first one to mention the 3 being ta'veren.  Shortly after meeting Rand he told Rand he was ta'veren and said that he could almost sense the pattern shifting around Rand.<br />        My point is that the women aren't ta'veren cause they have been seen by Nicola, Siuan, Logain, and Loial and none of them have mentioned it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 18:27:27
subject: <b>Fun with Magnetism and Ta'veren</b>
body:
Someone above made an anology between magnetism and ta'veren.  The point being that a strong magnet can magnetize other materials around it (both temporarily and permanently).  This may be (or may not) be a useful analogy.  But I thought it would be fun to take the analogy to its furthest extremes.<br /><br />Materials can be broken into a number of different categories depending on how they react to magnetic fields.<br /><br /><b>Ferromagnets:</b> Ferromagnetic material can hold magnetization.  They can be magnetized or not magnetized and can be changed from either state to the other.  (Heating a magnet for instance demagnetizes it.) Most ferromagnetic materials can become magnetized by being placed in a stong magnetic field.  As long as the magnetic field is applied the ferromagnetic material will produce a strong magnetic field of its own that is in the same direction as the stronger applied magnetic field.  When the applied magnetic field is removed the ferromagnetic material will become a weaker magnet itself.  Magnetized ferromagnets twist to align themselves with larger less mobile ferromagnets and become attracted to the ferromagnet. <br /><br /><b>Paramagnets</b> are materials that cannot become magnetized but nevertheless are strongly affected by magnetic fields.  Paramagnets become magnetized while in the presence of a strong magnetic field.  The magnetic field of the paramagnets aligns in the same direction of the applied magnetic field and therefore enhances the original magnetic field.  Paramagnets are attracted to both poles of a magnet.<br /><br /><b>Diamagnets</b> are materials that repel magnetic fields by becoming magnetized in the opposite direction to the applied magnetic field.  Diamagnets are repeled by both poles of a magnet.  Superconductors are near perfect diamagnets in that they completly expel all magnetic field from inside of them.<br /><br />So in analogy to magnets I propose the following explanation of types of ta'veren <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br /><b>ferrota'veren:</b> people who may become ta'veren (if the pattern chooses or if they get too close to a strong ta'veren for long).  Ta'veren may become &quot;unta'verenized&quot; to become only ferrota'veren if the pattern so chooses. <br /><br /><b>ta'veren</b> Ferrota'veren who have been &quot;ta'verenized&quot;.<br /><br /><b>parata'veren</b> People who cannot be ta'veren but nonetheless take on the properties of (in other words enhance the effects of) a nearby ta'veren.  (Whether nearby means in physical space or by relationship remains to be seen.)<br /><br /><b>diata'veren</b> People who are can nullify some of the effects of a nearby ta'veren.  We saw for instance (in LoC?) Egwene nullify Rand's ta'veren effect on her (to spill the beans on Salidar) by taking Saidar.<br /><br />People who can see ta'veren can almost certainly only see ta'veren and not &quot;unta'verenized&quot; ferrota'verens.  The heros of the horn are almost certainly all strong ferrota'verens. (They <i>can</i> be ta'verenized to a large degree.)  It is also almost certain that there are a number of normal (non hero) threads that are ferrota'veren to one degree or another.<br /><br />Obviously this analogy can only be taken so far.  (Hmmm, anyone have the feeling I am beating a dead horse here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).  Egwene for instance has qualities of both a parata'veren (she was attracted to Rand in Falme) and diata'veren.<br /><br />If nothing else I hope some people get a little appreciation for magnets.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 15:26:46
subject: <b>This is intresting</b>
body:
I would agree that Egwene and Nyneave are not ta'veren on there own but that they are so twisted in R,M,and P's Web that at times they may show some qualities of ta'vereness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 21:08:20
subject: <b>MY THEORY ABOUT TA'VEREN IS...</b>
body:
I think that only Rand, Mat and Perrin are Ta'veren, but that there abilities affect perhaps all over the pattern(maybe into past and future)(refer Talmanes(bad spelling i think) in Winter's Heart when he said that he and the band could feel Mat's need)<br /><br />I think that because Rand needs tools like Elayne or Min, he has them.<br /><br />The pattern meddles everywhere!<br /><br />I also think it's possible that our 1000000 lifetimes old friend Rand sub-consciously controls his Ta'veren ability. Though his conscious mind isn't upto it.<br /><br />And maybe bad things happen because of his Ta'veren abilities, because he too has evil in him(as most humans do).


created: 2002-10-07 13:13:03
subject: <b>dead or alive</b>
body:
...i completely agree with the concept of being able to show ta'veren like abiliteies when being threaded so close to one or three in this case.......but i don't think the theory can really make any conclusive decision on the mortality of the almost ta'verens...though i'd like it to be able to....thinkin' bout it i'm actually startin to disagree with myself so i'll stop now.........


created: 2003-06-11 21:05:39
subject: <b>Being pulled by Ta`veren</b>
body:
Moiraine said in EotW that those who are part of the Pattern are: Egwene, Thom , Mat, Perrin, Rand, Perhaps Thom and Nynaeve.  From the evidence of the events surrounding these characters, that they are woven tightly to Rand.<br /><br />Well thought out Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 10:50:32
subject: <b>Can't be</b>
body:
Byar was a character in The Eye of the World before Aginor and Balthamel were released. He can't possibly be Demandred, because Demandred wasn't freed from Shayol Ghul back then.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Naeblis<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> the next baddest thing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 11:41:49
subject: <b>We don't knoiw exactly when they were released.</b>
body:
That was our first glimpse of them, but they could have been out before that.<br /><br />Great idea for the Theory!It seems like it could work, but with all of the evidence for one guy or another being Dem, It won't be solved until RJ tells us Point blank. <br />Look at Taim, for example. Until WH, I thought it wa him for sure! Well, truth told, alot of people still think Taim is Dem, even though RJ told us pretty much straight out that he was not.<br /><br />All in all, an interesting Idea, but haven't we seen Byar's POV? Mabye I'm wrong here. And wasn't Byar in the TR? I really could be wrong there because I haven't read TSR for a while. If he was though, I hardly think that he would stand by for Fain's actions.<br /><br />This is just as plausable as most of the other Dem theories out there (Norry? PLEASE.). Good thinking!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 12:07:16
subject: <b>regarding we don't know when etc.</b>
body:
sure technically we don't know when they were released....but Aginor and Balthamel's aging so much from being the &quot;closest to the seals&quot; implies they were the first one's released....and Byar had been around long enough to achieve rank in the Children....don't think so<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 12:10:05
subject: <b>He was in the TR with Dain Bornhald</b>
body:
He's Bornhald's second in command. I agree with you that if he were Byar, he would take out Fain. We learn in Winter's Heart that Fain is a force that the Forsaken as well as the Dark One want taken out. Remember Slayer has been hired to take him down.<br /><br />One other thing that may kill this theory. At the same Forsaken meeting in Winter's Heart where we learn about the hunt for Fain, Aran'gar fumes about how Osan'gar and Demandred were supposed to keep an eye on Rand, meaning they are close to him. I hardly think Rand would keep a Child of the Light near him, especially since they've tried to assassinate him before.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-24 12:27:49
subject: <b>Whitecloak influences</b>
body:
It's true that there are no known forsaken influences on the whitecloaks, but do they really need any help in making chaos.<br /><br />It's also suspected that the reason they're a bunch of twisted little fellows, instead of the peaceful worshippers of the light they were when first created has been hinted in the books to be Ishmauls fault.  So they have technically been influenced by the forsaken if Ishmaul did put a little poison in all their ears.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-24 12:30:52
subject: <b>Another point against the theory</b>
body:
The point about the Whitecloaks being the only major organisation that do not appear to have Forsaken influences that you use to support your theory does not hold. Ihere is at least one more, the Aiel. There are others too, such as the Borderlands, the Sea Folk...


created: 2002-01-24 12:40:23
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
The Foarsaken have tried to kill Perrin in some occasion, like in TDR when trollorcs attack Rand and Perrin in the mountain, before Rand run off to the stone of tears. So, why would demandred, being child Byar, would want to help Perrin and Egwene escape??(When they were captured in TEOTW)


created: 2002-01-24 14:56:15
subject: <b>What??</b>
body:
Unless im remembering wrong and i dont think i am bacause i just read book 5 and the part where Perrin saves the two rivers, I dont remember Byar being emotionless i remember him being a man who wore his emotions on his coatsleeve and didnt care if you knew what he thought.<br />


created: 2002-01-24 15:29:47
subject: <b>Byar POV in tGH</b>
body:
Sorry, but we get a brief point-of-view from Byar at the end of the Great Hunt.  Nothing there to suggest he's Demandred, just some obsessing about how Perrin the &quot;Darkfriend&quot; betrayed Bornhald and the Children to the evil &quot;witches&quot; and their Seanchan puppets.  In other words, pretty much the sort of frothing you'd expect from a Whitecloak fanatic.


created: 2002-01-24 16:34:13
subject:
<b>Sarendred ( a little long but worth it of course <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )</b>

body:
I have been going through the WC trying to figure out if Demandred is with them.  I think I can safely rule out Asuwana (the head inquisitor) and Eamon Valda because of their PoV (in LoC).  Both of them rant in their heads about the witches and the way they rant is not like a Forsaken's disdain for AS.  Dain Bornhald can be ruled out because of his PoV in tSR.  He just isn't evil enough.  Plus Dain has a known father and is probably well known.  Demandred would probably not go through the trouble of assuming the identity of someone with well known connections with low rank (no real access to Pedron Niall).  It would be much easier to make up a completly different identity with no real history and insert him in to a position of power through a high ranking DF.  That leaves us with four WCs that I can think of that could be Demandred: Child Byar, Saren (a Questioner), Balwer (Niall's secretary), and the really big WC that Perrin fought in tSR and the spy master that Eamon Valder killed.  The last two can be eliminated because of lack of importance and being dead, respectively.<br /><br />So what about Child Byar?  I don't think that Child Byar is Demandred for a number of reasons.  The first is that he isn't in a good position to cause trouble.  Second he seems to have a well established relationship with Geofram Bornhald (although Compulsion may take care of that).  Third, I seem to remember a PoV from Child Byar where he observes G. Bornhald dying in tGH.  If I remember correctly, he cared too much about the elder Bornhald and knew too little about the Seanchen.  Plus he had ample opportunity to kill Padan Fain when it was well know that PF was a target of the DO.<br /><br />That leaves us with two possible WC (if indeed Demandred is posing as a WC) Saren and Balwer.  Of the two, Balwer would be the most dramatic (since he is with Perrin).  There is a lot of evidence to support Balwer.  (Balwer's body type is completly different, though.  Balwer is short.)  Balwer seems to be in charge of the WC network of spies and diplomatic trouble makers.  It was most likly Balwer who arranged for the rebellion in Tear (which definitly had WC support), for instance.  He would have complete access to Pedron Niall and would be in a position that wouldn't be difficult to secure quickly.  (Who really cares about who is secretary).  It doesn't appear to be a job that is needed all the time (at one point Pedron Niall has to summon his secretary) so it is conceivably a job where his absence would be missed when he goes about other Forsaken activities.  In short, it is a perfect job for a Forsaken (which Halima recognizes as well).<br /><br />Despite all of this my money would be on Saren (damn I can't remember his first name) for being Demandred.  We see Saren 3 times (that I am aware of).  When we first meet him (tGH) he is the second in command under Carridin (a known high level DF in the Questioners).  He is responsible for slaughtering a whole town of people in order to keep them quiet for his meeting with the elder Bornhald.  He is described as tall with a hook nose.  (If I remember correctly both of these are Demandred qualities.)  He is aware of the Seanchen (calling them strangers), but uncharacteristically says that they might not be DFs (despite probably knowing about Damane).<br /><br />The second time we see him he comes to escort Morgase when she just &quot;happens&quot; to see the fateful hanging of Paitr (the DF boy from EotW who was going to &quot;rescue&quot; Morgase).  Saren was in Pedron Niall's office when he was &quot;told&quot; to escort Morgase to Pedron so we know he has access to Pedron Niall.  Morgase at the time remarks that she has heard of Saren but has never seen him (a sign that he is often absent).<br /><br />The third time we see him he is with Asuwana (the high inquisitor who plots Niall's assasination.)  Again we see him with access to a key figure.  He also makes a comment about wanting the witch's (Morgase's) throat.  This doesn't seem consistent with Morgase's thought about how Saren treated her.<br /><br />Putting it all together we have a tall hook nosed man whose first known assignment was in a position that the Forsaken could easily infiltrate as the subordinant of a high placed DF (Carridin). (The Questioners seem to be a small group that other WC don't pay too much attention-ripe for infiltration.)  He quickly gains access to people of power-Niall and Asuwana.  He doesn't consider the Seanchen as DFs.  He is missing some of the time.  His behavior doesn't seem to be consistent.<br /><br />Finally, for those who don't think that the WC has a Forsaken attached, consider how much chaos the WC caused in LoC (where we know Demandred pleased the DO).  (Niall was probably on the list of those who should die at the beginning of LoC.)  Consider as well how much the WCs helped the Seanchen.  When the Seanchen needed chaos for their first invasion, the WCs provided it.  When the Seanchen needed a little cover after there second invasion for them to take root Pedron Niall abruptly reversed course and quarantined the area.  When it wasn't possible to keep the Seanchen a secret Niall was killed and the WC army led out of harms way for the Seanchen to attack.  When the Seanchen's attacked the Amidicians its army was routed, but the WCs escaped!!  This leaves Demandred in charge of a large well disciplined army on the prowl.  Which leads me to my final point.  We know that Demandred was primarily a general; he always returned to the field to try and defeat LTT.  What better place to get a large well disciplined army that would fight the DR than the WCs.<br /><br />For those of you who have made it to the end (and have read the middle) thanks.  I hope I at least gave food for thought.   For those of you who have skipped to the end- shame on you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> , or maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 16:35:35
subject: <b>To damook: Just because Aginor and Balthamel</b>
body:
were closest to the seals doesn't mean that they were the only ones released at that point in the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 17:14:48
subject: <b>about Aginor and Balthamel</b>
body:
When I first read EotW I was under the impression that Aginor and Balthamel were just released.  (After all everybody was in a hurry to get there because they thought that the EotW was in emminent danger.)  After reading it again I have a totally different perspective.  <br /><br />The EotW was well protected from the Forsaken and wasn't in any danger until the main characters went there.   Aginor and Balthamel didn't just happen to be freed at the same moment that Rand and company entered the EotW.  The trip of Rand and company was well planned by Ishy (as was Rand's trip to Tear and possibly Falme.) Aginor and Balthamel had enough time before the end of EotW to get instructions from Ishy and to pick up a mask for Balthamel.  Aginor and Balthamel may have been around for months before Ishy allowed them to show their faces. (Ishy probably sent the pair to keep them both in line-the fact that Balthamel died allowed Aginor to try to kill Rand instead of kidnapping him.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 17:15:46
subject: <b>One</b>
body:
of our main clues for who Demandred is is that he was meant to be keeping an eye on Rand. People seem to want to ignore that in theories like this. Rand has had little to nothing to do with the Whitecloaks, that's Perrin and Galad's storyline.


created: 2002-01-24 17:43:16
subject: <b>The Whitecloak's name</b>
body:
His name is Einor Saren. Though his appearance does resemble that of Demandred, there really isn't much information to prove that the two are in fact the same man.<br /><br />Ultimately, he fails the test of whether he can keep an eye on Rand, which he cannot.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-24 17:52:40
subject: <b>Where is Demandred?</b>
body:
The Whitecloaks do seem to be the only major organization that haven't had a Forsaken involved, though they are the most unlikely hiding spot for Demandred. Think about it:<br /><br />Seanchan - Sermihage<br />Tear - Be'lal<br />Illian - Sammael<br />Andor - Rahvin<br />Ghealdean - Graendal<br />White Tower - Mesanna<br />Rebel Aes Sedai - Aran'gar<br />Asha'man - Osan'gar<br /><br />As for the Aiel, we've seen Sammael, Lanfear, and Asmodean all have a hand with the Aiel. Lanfear and Asmodean both traveled into the Waste, Asmodean even gave Couladin his dragon marks. Sammael tried to have Mat killed by Melindhra and he's also spread the Shaido throughout Randland.<br /><br />The only Forsaken that have not been attatched to any particular places are:<br />Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, Moghedien, Moridin, Cyndane and of course Demandred.<br /><br />But we learn through dialogue at the Winter's Heart forsaken meeting that Demandred is supposed to be close to Rand, he must be a part of something connected with Rand. The Whitecloaks just don't fit that description.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-24 18:19:13
subject: <b>White Cloaks DO fit the description for keeping an eye on Rand</b>
body:
As a member of the WCs Demandred is perfectly placed to keep an eye on Rand.  Whitecloaks have influence <i>everywhere</i>.  Thom mentions this to Elayne at one point when she mentions that her mother has at least as much influence as the WCs.  They also have an extensive network of eyes and ears.  Their network is probably only rivaled by the tower and possibly by DFs.  This is mentioned in the BWB and fits well with the plot.  (White Cloaks are continually meddling in the politics of other countries and they have many hidden supporters.)  It is also mentioned that Pedron Niall also had a hand with the rebelion and Tear and other matters so the WC have political influence as well.<br /><br />That Demandred is keeping track of Rand through a WC network of eyes is also in complete agreement with Demandred's frustration in WH with information coming in at a slow pace (probably through pigeons by his description).  I am not saying that Demandred has to be with the WC but it is a definite possibility that people shouldn't disparage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 19:23:51
subject: <b>Why...</b>
body:
would Demandred be using an the WC's eyes and ears network when he could just use Darkfriends? The fact that WC's have eyes and ears everywhere is in no way an incentive for a Forsaken to join their organisation, DF's are more widespread by far.<br /><br />And you're right, the Aiel have been infiltrated to some degree by the Forsaken, but none of them ahve posed as an Aiel. Plus there's still the Borderlands and the Sea Folk.


created: 2002-01-24 20:35:43
subject: <b>They could just be one of Demandred's agents</b>
body:
I don't think we need to jump to the conclusion that a Forsaken would locate to the WC's just because they are the only major group that doesn't have a Forsaken.  As we know, there are many DF's who have infiltrated the whitecloaks.  A Forsaken could probably just as easily have a good agent or proxie in the whitecloaks as he could be there himself.  As Sammuel says, Demandred is fond of his proxies. <br />     The picture RJ is painting suggests to me that Demandred is Rand's most dangerous opponent (with the exception of Morridin).  Seriously, how many characters has RJ portrayed that are tall and/or have hook noses?  Lots- Taim, Norry, Bashere, ect. (I'm sure there are quite a few more).  RJ is giving us a mystery on purpose, and acting like we should be able to figure this out to perpetuate salivation for his next book.  Whoever Demandred is, the mystery that surrounds him is going to play an interesting role pretty soon.  Somebody is going to get surprised and surprised bad. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 22:47:41
subject: <b>I totally agree</b>
body:
There's no definite reason why a Forsaken would insert themselves into the Whitecloaks.<br /><br />As for the Demandred characteristics, Jordan's been throwing in look alikes just to keep us guessing, though I never thought Bashere or Norry were tall.<br /><br />Basically what it all gets down to is that Osan'gar and Demandred were assigned with the task of watching Rand. The conversation suggests they are working together in the Asha'man camp, but the conclusion of Winter's Heart suggests otherwise.<br /><br />I suggest that at the end of the series (Book 3,481) after Rand has won the Last Battle and all the baddies are no more, the Creator will come down from the heavens and explain all the mysteries of the books.<br /><br />Just a thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-24 23:42:53
subject: <b>NOT AT ALL</b>
body:
impossible... Demandred is not Byar...<br /><br />too many reasons to count.  First off, you say that the children of the light have not been influenced by the dark one or darkfriends.  NOT TRUE.  They have been what about the guy that went against Perrin in the Two Rivers when Perrin was fighting the Trollocs?  That guy dies in the beginning of book 9 in front of one of the Chosen.<br /><br />demandred is Taim... long live that theory!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 00:26:49
subject: <b>So you say..............</b>
body:
that Elayne lets Whitecloaks roam the halls of the palace?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 08:37:20
subject: <b>Who?</b>
body:
First off, Perrin, what Whitecloak are you talking about that died in front of the Forsaken? If you're talking about Jaichim Carridin, then he died at the end of Path of Daggers. In addition, he had nothing to do with the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Also, Emperor of Draco, what are you talking about Whitecloaks wandering the Caemlyn palace? I honestly don't believe anyone suggested that.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-25 09:10:05
subject: <b>Close but no.</b>
body:
I don't think there is a way that Byar could be Demandred because the only 3 that were released in EotW were Ishamael, Balthamael, and Aginor, and Balthamael and Aginor were almost falling apart because they were too close to the edge of the Seal.  So I'd say it's impossible for him to be Byar then.  He might take him over later, but that's a different possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 14:16:13
subject: <b>Actually, we don't know who was released in EoTW</b>
body:
Actually, I believe more of the forsaken than just Ishy, Balthamel, and Aginor were released in EoTW.<br />        Recall the scene in Baerlon where they were dancing and they were watched by the man with blond hair and the livid scar across his face.  Most likely he was Samuel.  <br />       I would wager most of the forsaken were probably released at this time, cause they all needed time to gain power and influence in whatever sphere they were working.<br />    For example, it is mentioned in WH, that one year ago Tuon's old truthspeaker was killed and replaced with Anath.  Semirhage needed time to gain this position.  In my estimation, the WoT has only been happening over a 1-1.5 year time span.  My reasoning is that the winter in WH is the first winter since EoTW.  So, by my reasoning, Semirhage was also released in EoTW.<br />       I am not sure about the others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 15:03:24
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
Hey, thanks everybody for posting a response.  It is quite flattering to see the reaction(even though almost all negative).  This is my first theory post and it was just an idea I was toying with and thought I'd throw it out there to see if I'd get ANY reaction at all.  So again, thank you very much!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Hey Peter, what's happening?  Ummm yeah, we need to talk about your TPS reports.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 16:00:44
subject: <b>I..</b>
body:
...wouldn't use seasons to judge timeframe, they're hardly set in the time we're seeing in this world. However, you're 1-1 1/2 year estimate is right.<br /><br />Even if Demandred was freed in tEotW, why would he have been posing as Child Byar? It makes no sense. At the time he had some influence, but not that much.<br /><br />Isn't it crazy how many points you can argue over when it was established within the first few posts that the theory is wrong?


created: 2002-01-25 16:29:02
subject: <b>Clinging to straws</b>
body:
The time period of the Forsaken's release hardly proves or disproves this theory. But since people seem to cling to timelines like straws, lets look at timelines. What we've learned of the Forsaken is that they climb to a position of power very fast. Though I have no quote to back it up, Moiraine did mention that fact in Dragon Reborn I believe. Look at Rahvin. He came out of virtually nowhere to all but rule Andor.<br /><br />As for Whitecloaks, it's still highly unlikely that Demandred is among them. THey've played a pretty insignificant role throughout the books. Their two major points have been the battle at Falme (which they lost) and their movement on TR (which was also a loss). The only other time we ever saw them was right before the Seanchan took over Amadicia. And of course, they still have no way of watching Rand, which is a major blow to this theory.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-25 17:27:38
subject: <b>what</b>
body:
this thing has 1000 votes.... umm ok<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 17:32:47
subject: <b>Actually, it's over 2 years for the series to date.</b>
body:
at the start of LoC, Rand thinks to himself that if Taim could hold off the Taint for 15 years, then surely he was in no danger after 2. Re-read it for yourself, if you don't believe me.<br /><br />EotW starts in winter.<br />tDR starts at the end of a winter.<br />LoC is supposed to be in winter, but it is unnaturally hot.<br />WH is in the Heart of a new Winter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />By that reasoning, it's been 3 years until now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 19:04:52
subject: <b>Re: Altara and Chaos</b>
body:
Byar's low position in the Whitecloaks in no way supports Demandred: Rahvin, Sammael and Be'lal all became rulers of countries in very short order.<br /><br />While Altara is in the south, consider the previous state of the country. Tylin was the fourth ruler in half a year, and her writ was only effective to 100 miles from Ebou Dar. That does not suggest a strong unified country; a weak hotchpotch of nobles (presumably) would be easy prey for the powerful and efficient Seanchan war machine.<br /><br />And also, while sparking an invasion would often cause a lot of chaos, with the Seanchan it is the reverse. Before, there was a lot of chaos, with all the people running around because Rand was the breaker of bonds, and famine and stuff. The Seanchan provide a lot of order to the places they conquer - bringing in their own supplies and society, and regulating food and other things, making sure people don't starve and that there is no crime. Thus, order, not chaos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4741.gif" /><br /><br /><font face="black chancery"><b><font color="#BD0000">W</font><font color="#DD0000">a</font><font color="#E0510C">r</font><font color="#F3690E">d</font><font color="#F58E49">e</font><font color="#F9BE44">r</font> <font color="#F3D00A">t</font><font color="#EBF525">o</font> <font color="#C2DB15">t</font><font color="#A0ED12">h</font><font color="#1DAC1A">e</font> <font color="#158060">f</font><font color="#4B62A2">a</font><font color="#3A11FD">i</font><font color="#4535D9">r</font> <font color="#742CC5">S</font><font color="#7625A7">o</font><font color="#882FD0">p</font><font color="#A24BD6">h</font><font color="#B44AD7">y</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="white">Kory</font><font color="EEEEEE">: not forgotten.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 09:37:32
subject: <b>No Way</b>
body:
People, you seem to forget that every time we have encountered a forsaken, he/she is someone WITHOUT a recordable prior history.  This includes Taim.  I know what you are thinking, and I also believe Taim cannot be Demandred, however look at the debate this theoy has caused.  And Why?  Taim has no recordable history until he proclaimed himself Dragon Reborn. (notice no abbreviations!)<br />No other forsaken has any history in any establishment in the Robert Jordan world!<br /><br />Stop looking at people in with an established history in any society apart from those introduced later in the series.<br />Anath(who is surely Semirhage)has no history mentioned until she suddenly shows up to replace the dead Sojhin employed(?) by Tuon.  This to me is a pointless debate.  No way is Demandred Byar, or Halwin Norry.  Both charaters have a histroy dating prior to tEotW.


created: 2002-01-26 11:19:04
subject: <b>You</b>
body:
can't know that, certainly it's easier to create someone new, but if the situation demands it I don't see why the Forsaken wouldn't imitate others. After all, the 2 Forsaken who we have yet to identify, Demandred and Mesaana, are both most strongly rumoured to be Norry and Danelle. You'll find that both Norry and Danelle don't have any friends, making them prime candidates for being replaced if the need should arise.


created: 2002-01-26 13:22:22
subject: <b>Blademaster?</b>
body:
I thought that of all the forsaken, only Elan Morin (Ish/Moridin) and Sammael were blademasters or into sword fighting. As far as I recall, Demandred resented the use of the sword as he thought he was far above it, and didnt need a silly tool when he could use the one power. Thats part of the Taimandred theory isnt it? Taim doesnt use or like swords and gets pissed off when Rand makes all Ashaman learn the sword. Child Byar is obviously excellent with the sword. Cant be him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Slayer of Idiots<br />Drinker of 40s<br />Guardian of the Light<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 13:27:48
subject: <b>For goodness sake people!</b>
body:
DEMANDRED IS NOT NORRY!<br /><br />Where the Hel|_ did that idea come from anyway? It could be the worst WoT idea ever. Taimandred was at least plausible until WH. You guys are just jumping to conclusions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 17:38:56
subject: <b>A few loose ends</b>
body:
<b>To 3 in a Boat: about replacing Halwin Norry</b>.  Even if Halwin Norry didn't have any friends (which we don't know) he still has a number of subordinates and co-workers.  It would be very difficult not to replace Norry without arousing some suspicion.  Sure he could do it, especially with liberal use of compulsion, but creating a new identity is MUCH easier.  The second point against Norry is why would Demandred want Norry's job.  Demandred is a general not a clerk or a politician.<br /><br /><b>Demandred is a General.</b> Why do people always forget this.  They are continually trying to place him into positions of intrigue rather than in a position where he can control armies.  (At least Taimendred has Demandred in charge of Asha'man soldiers, but Norrydred, PLEASE!!) Other examples are Bashere, Dobraine, and Weiramon  who are generals but are solidly under Rand's control.  Demandred wouldn't choose to be under Rand. Demandred would choose to infiltrate an organation with a large army he could use against Rand.  (This assumes Demandred has a choice. This is supported by the fact that Demandred seems happy by the orders the DO gives him in LoC.)  This means Demandred is most likely influential with one or more of the following: White Cloaks, prophets mobs, Roedran and his attempt to unite Murandy, the Shaido Aiel, or one of the Borderlands.<br /><br /><b>in response to &quot;Demandred is near Rand&quot;</b> Nowhere does it say that Demandred is near Rand.  Rather, it says Demandred was responsible for &quot;keeping an eye on Rand&quot;.  In the same chapter it says that Demandred was hoping to run into Rand.  This strongly suggests that Demandred is nowhere near Rand. (Bye, Bye Dobrainendred, Taimendred, Bashendred, Norrydred, etc..)  There are many ways to keep an eye on Rand without coming near him, through DFs and through other eyes and ears for instance.  (As I mentioned above-the WCs may make a perfect place to watch over Rand since many WC have extensive networks of eyes and ears.)<br /><br />Thats all for now.  I am sure I will have more later though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 17:57:01
subject: <b>You</b>
body:
assume that Demandred chose where to go and who to be. I think he was told to be whoever he is, especially when he is supposed to keep an eye on him. That suggests that he hasn't just lost him like the others, but that he will be in trouble for not knowing where he is, he's been ordered.<br /><br />I don't want to discuss Norry here, there's a massive thoery and debate about it elsewhere. All I will say is that so far from ideas people have put forward, Norry's a hell of a lot more likely than anyone else. GG, you've gone way over the top, there are a LOT of points that suggest that Norry is Demandred.


created: 2002-01-26 18:08:11
subject: <b>3 in a boat</b>
body:
I read that theory, and like I said, it blew. It was all just a bunch of assumptions. Even Taimandred had the physical description and mannerisms to make it believable.<br /><br />Norry isn't Dem. Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 19:08:24
subject: <b>What</b>
body:
are you after, proof? If you're expecting someone to come up with actual proof that Demandred is someone, it doesn't exist, not yet. I know I said I didn't want to discuss it here, but I guess it was inevitably leading that way, so here are some of the poitns for Norry:<br /><br />He is Demandred's height, an important point often used against Bashere.<br /><br />He smiles in the same way as Demandred does (not fully).<br /><br />Demandred stands to dominate a room and even when he is told to sit by his superiors (Elayne, likely future queen), Norry stands.<br /><br />We find that Osan'gar and Demandred are meant to be keeping an eye on him. Why two of the Forsaken? Because at least one of them cannot keep an eye on him all the time, it's just not possible. Where can't Osan'gar keep an eye on him? Caemlyn where the Asha'man are not allowed to go. So our suspect is likely to be in Caemlyn. Norry is.<br /><br />So we need someone in Caemlyn. That rules out Dobraine (as if he ever needed ruling out, he doesn't match Demandred at all being short even for a Cairhienin and Perrin has been around him without smelling his hate for Rand. Min hasn't seen loads of viewings round him either as the Forsaken should have). Bashere is in Caemlyn, so he's a suspect. He's too short though, Perrin has once again been around him without smelling what he should and you have to believe that the whole of his family are DFs to think that he could be a Forsaken. Wieramon is not in caemlyn and is also too short. I can't remember if Min has seen him or if Perrin has smelled him, but that's hardly needed info. I hope I don't need to point out that it's not Taim.<br /><br />Norry is in a position to spread chaos as we know Demandred must, while keeping an eye on Rand. Here's a quote from WH: &quot;the First Clerk had the power to bring a queen to her knees if unchecked.&quot;<br /><br />Demandred hates bending his neck to anyone, Norry has trouble bowing to Elayne.<br /><br />Whenever a Forsaken icon is at the start of a chapter, a Forsaken is within it. Except for 3. One of these chapters has extensive discussion of Moghedien though. The second time this happens is the same time that Norry is introduced to the series for the first time, in LoC, where Demandred was told to spread chaos. Samael was present (not physically) in the chapter, but we know how Jordan likes to divert our attention away from what we should be seeing. The third time there is definitely no Forsaken present, but Norry is.<br /><br />So, what do we have? We have a man who fits with Demandred physically. w have a man who matches Demandred's charcateristics. We have a man who is capable of keeping an eye on Rand as he has to. We have a man who is fully able to spread chaos as Demandred has been instructed to. We have a man who appears in a chapter with a Forsaken icon, where no Forsaken are present. We have a man with no prrof against him being Demandred, unlike any other theory I have seen. We have Halwin Norry.<br /><br />Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone who doesn't believe it that it's true, but to say it is one of the worst theories ever and that it is based on assumptions seems to be an injustice to the author (of the theory).


created: 2002-01-26 20:09:51
subject: <b>Thanks and a few points...</b>
body:
Thank you Three In A Boat for the support.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />RabidWombat, one of your contentions is wrong.  Sure Demandred was a general.  But guess what the Guide states that Demandred did in the Age of Legends...  That's right, he was a politician.  The Guide states Demandred held several high public offices. <br /><br />He is therefore familiar with politics and working with budgets.  The books also state numerous times, that very very few people who knew Norry well remain in Caemlyn.<br /><br />And if you believe Messana is Danelle, numerous people should know of her as well, but that doesn'tt stop people from believing Mesaana is her.<br /><br />They could easily be replaced.  Norry and Demandred do both complain about the same things and have similar (prudish?)reactions to others thinks about sex.<br /><br />Just my thoughts,<br />mahiro <br /><br />


created: 2002-01-26 20:47:58
subject: <b>Refuting Child Byer = Demandred</b>
body:
Your assertion that the White Cloaks have had no Forsaken Involvement is incorrect.<br /><br />1st example: The Myrddral that visited Carridin in the Fortress of the Light.<br /><br />2nd example: Sammael visiting Carridin again in Altara, whilst Carridin was meeting with the woman who attempted to kill Rand and Matt in E.O.t.W.<br /><br />Simple! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-27 01:06:26
subject: <b>Still doubt Norry</b>
body:
He's described as lacking all but a few hairs, which stick out of his head like quill pens. This sounds more like Aginor than Demandred. If someone can present a quote on Norry's physical appearance that suggests otherwise, that would be much appreciated.<br /><br />As for him not bowing to Elayne or sitting when she says sit, Taim doesn't bow to Rand or anyone for that matter.<br /><br />Demandred having a knack for politics? So what? Sermihage is skilled as a physician. She acts as sojhin to Tuon. Not a doctor.<br /><br />We also know Norry kept Caemlyn running almost single-handed under Rahvin's rule. Why would Demandred help Rahvin? No one knows Norry? Renee Hafor does. They've been working together since before Morgase.<br /><br />Forsaken have a knack for keeping clean. Norry lacks this talent, since he's been described as having ink stains on himself.<br /><br />Finally, the Forsaken icon. Norry's been in the series in seven different chapters. The Forsaken icon's been on two. The first is when Sammael's messenger arrives. The second is when the plan Mili Skane and Daved Hanlon is launched. If memory serves me correctly, they work for Moghedien and Moridin.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-27 01:43:58
subject: <b>drgnrbrn316 a few points...</b>
body:
Norry's actual appearance (the ink stains and lack of hair) are not relevant.  A &quot;Mask of Mirrors&quot; can easily cover it up.<br /><br />Regarding the forsaken icon, you misinterpreted the significance of it.  Numerous times, a Forsaken appeared without the accompanying icon.  This happened a lot of times and should be easy to find.  Taim even appeared several times without a Forsaken icon.  The lack of an icon is not proof.<br /><br />However, only 3 times did a icon appear without a Forsaken confirmed in it.  Two were with Norry.  The other had Elayne and Nynaeve discussing Moghedien.  It also had Tarna Feir in it.  <br /><br />Politics is simply another thing that Norry has in common with Demandred.  Using an objective standard, Norry has more things in common with demandred than Taim.  Politics is just one of them.


created: 2002-01-27 23:40:23
subject: <b>Still not convinced</b>
body:
Mask of Mirrors is a very risky thing to use. Remember that both Rand and Elayne have said that it is better to use it when you don't change your appearance much. Demandred is described as kind of the tall, dark and handsome, which Norry clearly is not. As for using the Mask of Mirrors anyways, that makes it possible for anyone to be Demandred.<br /><br />Assuming Demandred is actually Norry, where would he find the time for Forsaken meetings, attacks on Shadar Logoth, etc.? Elayne says that nothing exists but numbers to Norry. His day would be booked solid with taking care of Caemlyn business.<br /><br />&quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; How could Norry do this? I really don't think Demandred would brag to the Dark One at the end of the book about doing Rand's taxes.<br /><br />Also, you've yet to address the fact that Renee Hafor knows Norry from Morgase and before, as well as the idea that Forsaken don't like to work together. Not to mention the fact that Norry ran Caemlyn single-handed during Rahvin's reign. Demandred would have better things to do with his time.<br /><br />Until you can refute those points, I won't be convinced.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-28 01:51:36
subject: <b>drgnrbrn316...</b>
body:
You evidently have not read the entire theory on wheeloftime.com nor all the comments posted here.  Most if not all your points were already addressed.<br /><br />Norry is tall - almost as tall as Rand.  There is no doubting that.  Demandred is almost as tall as Rand.  A Mask is far more effective than you make it out to be.  Rand posed as Nuli in WH.  Nuli by all descriptions is extremly ugly.  Rand is not, yet he was able to fool by all appearances everyone.<br /><br />I already addressed that Demandred probably replaced Norry after Rahvin died.  Had you read the comments, you would have known this and read the quote I supplied.<br /><br />I already pointed out Reene Harfor apparantly dislikes Norry for an unknown reason.  It could be for guarding her turf v. encroachment, but then again maybe not.  <br /><br />Norry only meets with Elayne once or twice a day.  That leaves plenty of time to do other things.  For the average person, doing two jobs might seem like a lot, but Demandred is not the average peron.  He is the second most brilliant man of his Age - of any Age.  Such a man should be able to do three jobs at once.  More than three even.<br /><br />Norry created Chaos by helping to bring about the confrontation with the Salidar embassy and by having a hand in the battle at the end.  That is creating chaos.


created: 2002-01-28 02:03:36
subject: <b>RabidWombat...</b>
body:
Actually, you are mistaken.  Demandred is not looking for Rand.  He is remaining in place.  Others are doing the searching for him.  (WH: ch 13, p. 317)<br /><br />If having flunkies do the watching would explain the orders to watch Rand, then there would be no reason for Osan'gar watching Rand under the Dashiva cover.<br /><br />For those who insist that Demandred is a general above all else.  Ordering Demandred to order flunkies to watch Rand violates every security precaution I can think of.  Demandred would not have the need to know.  We have already seen Moridin give orders to low level darkfriends.  demandred would have no reason to know of the orders to watch Rand.  Therefore, Osan'gar's presence and his knowledge of the orders themselves means he was ordered to PERSONALLY watch Rand.


created: 2002-02-04 21:04:00
subject: <b>Was he ordered not to use flunkies?</b>
body:
I like Norrydred, btw.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 19:19:57
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I would have to start by saying that I agree with Burr, as this is certainly an interesting possibility.  I have two main problems with it, though...<br /><br />First, to me, it just doesn't <i>feel</i> right.  I mean, I understand some of the Forsaken are playing the game and controlling things from behind the scenes.  But Byar seems a bit too minor to me, like he couldn't really get enough done.<br /><br />The bigger crack I see in this theory, though, is the fact that Demandred couldn't have been Byar in <i>The Eye of the World</i>.  At the time Ishamael was the only one of the Forsaken who was even kinda free, and at the end Be'lal and Aginor were around for a few pages.<br /><br />To me that seems like the biggest problems, but it wouldn't be unlike RJ to pull the wool over our eyes in such a manner.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/1.gif" /><br />wotmania<br />Creator of wotmania<br />Making Admins Dance for Over a Decade</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 19:53:01
subject: <b>Interesting, but unlikely . . .</b>
body:
I tend to disagree that Child Byar is Demandred (just a hunch), but once you go down that road, there is some evidence that can support it.<br /><br />Demandred is a Forsaken frought with anger, but has exhibited immense patience throughout the series.  Perhaps he has discovered that his best chance to rid the world of Rand (and LTT) and to become Nae'blis is to keep quiet.  Yet, Child Byar clearly has a temper and a ruthless streak in him.  This info, coupled with the description of his physical appearance, could be used to support this theory.<br /><br />Next, Byar keeps an unpleasant company with Ordeith.  While Demandred himself probably cannot stand Fain, and would thusly act negatively towards him during their interactions, he could very well have seen Fain as a chance to kill Rand without getting his hands dirty.<br /><br />Assume Byar is Demandred.  He is well-protected as an officer in an army the mortal world avoids at all costs and the immortal world ignores.  Since he is not in direct command of any influential forces, he further disguises himself in obscurity.  Lastly, Fain is an excellent engine with which to strike at Rand--a wild-card darkfriend who is powerful in his own right and who despises Rand with a hatred equal to his own.<br /><br />Although neither Byar nor Demandred (in either form) could have driven Fain to do his bidding, simply telling him that Rand has a trapped Forsaken teaching him about his unknown powers would motivate Fain to kill Asmodean himself, something that is easily possible with his dagger.  Killing Asmodean would help to satisfy Fain's hatred of Rand and the Forsaken both, killing one of the immortals while depriving Rand of help that would increase his powers.  <br /><br />To sum up, I still believe it's a little far-fetched that Byar is Demandred, but it is a perfect hiding spot.  I predict in the books to come that we are going to see some serious &quot;squaring-off&quot; of the major divided powers such as the White Tower, the Seanchan, the Black Tower and the Whitecloaks.  Each has its merits when it comes to spreading chaos, Demandred's chief goal at the moment.<br /><br />I will not be shocked if Byar turns out to be Demandred, but I will be somewhat surprised.  Good thinking on the theory, tho.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2003-03-20 18:59:07
subject: <b>don't think so</b>
body:
I just don't think so...Aginor and Balthamel were both recently released in tEotW, and they were the first.  Even for Demandred, it would take time for him to rise in rank, and to gain the trust of Geofram Bornhald.  So not likely...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eben<br />AshamanWarder<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-07 20:48:49
subject: <b>I think that Byar was in Eye Of the World</b>
body:
In other words, he predates Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">we really need an edit button on the blackboard. I mean, who doesn't occasionally make a comment that (unintentionally) sounds really snooty, as if it insulted a lot of people's intelegence, then realize they mis-spelled it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 14:58:27
subject: <b>Faults...</b>
body:
Well, it's easy for faults to exist in ter'angreal, Callandor lacks the buffer needed to protect Rand from drawing to much, and also magnifies the taint.<br /><br />Then you have to take into account all of Elayne's rings that didn't work out so well, like the solid blue one, that gives it's bearer terrible nightmares.<br /><br />ter'angreal making in the age of legands, must have been something that took quite a bit of learning to do, despite having Elayne's natural gift for it, what do you suppose all the people back then did with ter'angreal that were rejects... I really don't know, I'm just trying to put the point through that mistakes in ter'angreal are very possible.<br /><br />And as to how the evil got into this world and who made it, well take Mat's medallion into consideration, did the finns make that, or did they just obtain it from someone else?<br /><br />I really like this theory, it has merit, and raises quite a few un asked questions. <br /><br />I agree that fain's power is going to grow, but I've had an inkling all through reading the books, that there is also a relationship between fain and the black wind from the ways.<br /><br />I don't know what it is, but fain is a combination of the two evils in Wot world, and already has quite a bit of power from his mordeth side, perhaps it's possible that in a recent book the black wind will be freed and fain will control it.<br /><br />I hope someone can come up with an idea of how this all fits together, cause(and I hope I'm not the only one)I believe it's all connected.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-26 15:36:01
subject: <b>tryin to figure out...</b>
body:
Where does it say that Fain gets more power from the dagger???  It infected him with the evil of Shadar Logoth.  The same way that it did to Mat.  <br /><br />Think of the dagger as cocaine...  Mat and Padan Fain held onto the dagger and were 'addicted' to it.  The evil took ahold of them, and not the power contrived from it.<br /><br />As for it being a Ter'angreal...<br />interesting theory, but what merit does it have?  I don't see it giving any type of power to the posessor.  Yes I know that there are 'flawed' Ter'angreal such as the one Elayne made to become invisible, but it just made you queasy.  But the dagger has the EVIL of Shadar Logoth in it, and to me that explains the evil.<br /><br />Daz it.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> TrainerMike <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 16:39:00
subject: <b>Huh??</b>
body:
Well, that would certainly explain the scene when Rand try to kill Fain in WH, and he (Fain) make an illusion of the two asha'man. I have always wondered how he did that.


created: 2002-01-26 16:55:57
subject: <b>Mordeth's quote</b>
body:
<br />     This theory is created entirely upon this one quote and events that happened to Mat, Perrin, and Rand when they were in Shadar Logoth.<br /> <br />&quot;Panting he shook his head as if he could not decide. 'Take what you want. Except... Except...&quot; (pg. 284)<br /><br />    What did Mordeth not want them to take?  It had to be the dagger.  But why?  This is why I created this theory.  Because Mordeth's quote is very troublesome.  I welcome any other interpretations, but why would Mordeth not wanted them to take this one object?  i do not want any negative replies unless someone can explain away Mordeth's quote.<br /><br />      Here is another intersting quote about the dagger I found in FoH.  &quot;The dagger was there.  He felt its pull where he stood.  He could have pointed to it.  It was his, a part of him... Having the dagger would make up for so much lost; he was not sure how, but was sure it would.  For Aridhol lost.  Too dangerous to return to Aridhol, perchance to be trapped there again.  He shivered.  So long trapped.  Not again...  One thing was sure.  He was not what anyone thought.  Those who believed they knew him were badly mistaken.  He was transfigured, now.  A force unto himself, and beyond any other power.  They would learn eventually.&quot; (pg. 26)<br />      To me this quote is interesting.  Fain is actually afraid of Mordeth and Aridhol.  He is afraid of being trapped there.  Many people seem to think that Fain is Mordeth, but clearly Fain's POV says something else.  What I think, is that Fain is becomming infected by the evil of Aridhol, the same evil that infected Mordeth. However, this does mean that Fain and Mordeth are the same. This dagger, however, is the replacement for Fain's Aridhol lost.  One question I have thinking about is:  Is Fain's dagger more important than another part of Aridhol?  For example, If someone took a rock from Aridhol, would that rock satisfy Fain as much as the dagger did?<br />      I don't think so.  And the reason I think this is from the above quote by Mordeth.  There is some special power to this dagger.<br />      One final question that I have seen raised by a few people is this:  How will Fain be affected by the demise of Shadar Logoth?  <br />      My answer is that I  think Fain will have mixed emotions.  As we have seen from Fain's POV, Fain was afraid to return to Shadar Logoth, he was afraid of Mordeth.  Mordeth, in a way, is a competitor to Fain, probably much in the same way that the different Forsaken compete to be Naeblis, or the most powerful person of the Dark One's evil.  Fain will be happy to see Mordeth done away with.  I think Fain's dagger's will satisfy Fain's longings for Shadar Logoth.  I think Fain will regret the demise of his &quot;Aridhol lost&quot; but he will have everything he needs becomes the dagger somehow makes him feel complete.  <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 17:48:01
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
What are you on about? This quote: &quot;Too dangerous to return to Aridhol, perchance to be trapped there again. He shivered. So long trapped. Not again...&quot; proves that Mordeth is part of Fain, not that he isn't. Fain's never been trapped at Shadar Logoth, certainly not for a long time, Mordeth has.<br /><br />Ohoh, a negative response without giving anohter reason for that other quote, what will I do?<br /><br />In response to the rest of the theory I think you may well be right that Fain's dagger is more important than we think, but not as important as you seem to be suggesting. I would think that it's far more likely that the dagger has been mentioned so much and in the ways you say because it will need to be destroyed/taken away for Fain's downfall.


created: 2002-01-26 18:02:18
subject: <b>again</b>
body:
Again, the dagger is like a drug to Fain,  that explains his need to keep it.  If you were addicted to something, then would you want someone else to take it???  The Dagger is also 'bonded' to him I guess you can say.  That is why he is able to know where it is.<br /><br />Mat had the dagger for awhile and it gave him no special powers, except forgetting everything and roid rage.  <br /><br />Early on in the series (around book 3?) the Dark One did something to Fain and possibly gave him some kind of power and that's how he does it.  Fain is a mix of the two evils... his power comes from that if he even has power.  <br /><br />I'm half-way through Winter's Heart so I haven't read about the scene where Fain creates the two Asha-man... but I would think that that would be caused by a woman's channeling, or a man channeling inverted weaves to come up with the illusion.  As RJ would say... I'll read and find out.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> TrainerMikePSK@Hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 18:30:53
subject: <b>Asha'man Illusions</b>
body:
Can't say as I remember the scene with the Asha'man illusions.  However, now that I think about it, it could be a property of Fain/Mordeth's ability to spread paranoia.  Maybe he kinda radiates an aura of paranoid delusion and Rand sees this manifested as the image of the two men he is hunting/being hunted by.<br /><br />Oh and not to spoil the WH for you, but lets just say that a woman/man channeling the illusion is almost entirely ruled out by circumstance.  There's a possibility, but only a slight one.  Not even worth considering.


created: 2002-01-26 19:43:05
subject: <b>Great food for thought</b>
body:
Nice theory.  I particularly like the analogy to the &quot;ring of power&quot;.  I have always viewed the &quot;ring of power&quot; as being not &quot;evil&quot; in and of itself.  I think it is the old &quot;absolute power corrupts absolutely&quot; idea.  If you had a ring which made you invisible, effectively where you could commit any crime and get away with it, would you commit crimes?  The honest answer is yes...  The dagger may be the same sort of thing.  Created with some &quot;special power&quot;, and now the power corrupts those who use it.  Nice job.<br /><br />- Tim<br />


created: 2002-01-27 00:23:51
subject: <b>Too much</b>
body:
I really think too much is being read into the dagger. Moiraine said at the end of EotW that Fain and Mordeth had merged. Then look at some of the assumed names Fain takes throughout the rest of the series. The dagger holds the evil of Shadar Logoth, which is an attraction for Mordeth. He's afraid to go back, since he could be trapped like he had been before. So, the dagger acted as kind of a &quot;fix&quot;, it gave him the taint he needed, that he couldn't get fron Shadar Logoth due to that fear. As for the attraction to the dagger, remember Mat could point to the dagger too. That's why he joined the group heading into Falme, because he could find the dagger and ultimately the Horn. He gained no power from the dagger, so why should Fain?<br /><br />As for the single quote that is holding this theory together:<br />&quot;'No. That is...' Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide [whether or not he still wanted them to help him move the treasure]. 'Take what you want. Except... Except...'<br />Suddenly, Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man.[...]'You don't have a shadow.'<br />A goblet fell from Mat's hand with a crash.&quot;<br />No mention of a dagger of any sort. Either he's already grabbed the dagger, or he takes it in all the confusion that follows this, but at the current time, the shock has caused him to drop what he holds, which is a goblet. As for &quot;Except...&quot;, this could be about anything. Except don't come back. Except anything in this pile over here. Except my back pills, which I'll need after I turn into a smoke-like entity and fly through that crack in the wall. As I said before, it could be anything. And finally, if the dagger meant a great deal to him, why wouldn't he want to hold on to it himself? Why have it laying amongst a pile of treasure? If I had something of great importance to me, I wouldn't toss it in front of someone and say &quot;Here ya go!&quot;<br /><br />Basically, the dagger may have some significance, but I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-27 11:30:43
subject: <b>Ter'angreal problem</b>
body:
Like your theory but one problem - no one could make ter'angreal during the Trolloc Wars.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 04:57:07
subject: <b>Spoilers included</b>
body:
It is mentioned in the serie that the Finns are amoral (they aren't either good or bad), so it is possible that they could create an object of power that wipes out a city, if there is even a possibility that slaying of all those people will have positive effect. So I think that they created that dagger so that it would be possible to clean Saidin. Without destruction of Aridhol it would have been impossible to destroy taint. So birth of Shadar Logoth was the price that has to be paid for possibility of victory in Last battle. If taint hadn't been destroyed DO would have won and the Finns would have been destroyed by Him. Now they have chance to survive beyond TG.


created: 2002-01-28 07:28:40
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
that's not entirely true. The finns are described as not evil as the Shadow is, but so different from mankind that many of the things they do might as well be evil. So it's not that they'd do something massively evil if it would benefit things in another way, it's just that something that they might do which to them is just something they'd do (whether good or bad or nothing to them), would seem evil to us.


created: 2002-01-28 09:52:33
subject: <b>But..</b>
body:
I don't think that the dagger is on par with the ring of power in any way, but I do believe it is important.  <br /><br />It carries the taint of Shadar Logoth, which was destroyed in WH (the rest of this depends on if the taint was of Shadar Logoth was destroyed with it)  It is all that is left of the Taint that destroyed the city, which makes the dagger (and Fain) extremely dangorous.<br /><br />Also lets not forget that the dagger is what infected Rand with the second evil, when he was cut, and given the second scar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Roll the dice</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 13:30:12
subject: <b>Origin of the Dagger</b>
body:
I believe that Fain's dagger is a terangreal. I think, perhaps, during the War of Power, the Aes Sedai were desperate for anything that would combat the shadow. As we've seen, though Mordeth is evil, his evil seems to work against the shadow's evil (just look at Rands wounds). It's possible that the AS of the WOP grabbed anything they could get as a weapon against the shadow, but when they realized what they had (with the Aridhol evil) they hid the dagger as best as they could. However, Mordeth somehow got ahold of it years later, and became transformed.<br />This begins to explain why he was reluctant to let the dagger leave (and I don't see what else the &quot;except&quot; could have been...RJ doesn't put stuff like that in for no reason). Mordeth, like Fain, was a man inhabitted by the dagger's evil: part of him wants to keep the dagger to himself, but the other part, the &quot;pure&quot; evil, will want the dagger taken so that it can be free again. Also, since the dagger holds (or ancors, much like the seals) the Aridhol evil, Mat would have partial control just by taking the dagger. In fact, this makes Mordeth's struggle in the treasure room much like Rand's struggle over his destiny: in order to accomplish the greater good, must I sacrifice the &quot;self&quot; I know?


created: 2002-01-28 14:17:14
subject: <b>Just Who the Hell is Mordeth Anyway?</b>
body:
I think there's a LOT that hasn't been explained even one bit that needs to be understood before anyone can start making theories about the dagger.<br /><br />1. Mordeth appears to have been a man.  Yet he &quot;lived&quot; thousands of years ago and seems to have an independent existence all the way down to the &quot;present&quot; time of the books, as some sort of ghost-like figure - after all, he wasn't gobbled up by Mashadar and he had no shadow and that odd power to expand and then become gaseous.  No explanation is given as to what he might be; he doesn't fit into the ecosystem of Jordan's world very well. Even bizarre things like Mashadar and Machin Shin (which are pretty similar phenomena when you think about it) are explained in some sort of nebulous way that suits their physical shape quite well.<br /><br />2. Why was he trapped in Shadar Logoth?  How was he trapped?  How did he end up getting free?  I always thought it was because the dagger was taken outside of Shadar Logoth, and that his &quot;except...&quot; was not that he couldn't take an item, but it was going to be something like, &quot;Take anything you like, except that you have to take this dagger out of the city with you&quot; or &quot;except that you can't leave anything here&quot;.<br /><br />3. Just what sort of an initial encounter did Fain have with Mordeth?<br /><br />Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't see how Mordeth &quot;fits&quot; into the cosmology of Robert Jordan but it is strange that he can't be &quot;ascribed&quot; to the phenomena that we fans seem to understand: he isn't made with the One Power as far as we can tell, he isn't a Forsaken or getting power directly from the Dark One, he isn't Shadowspawn in the usual understanding of the word and he isn't part of the naturally occuring fauna of WoTworld. The grolm, Ogier and the gholam were all pretty strange when they were introduced, but we later find out they're just fauna from Seanchan, relics from the Age of Legends and Forsaken-created relics from the Age of Legends, respectively.  Cuendillar, angreals, Aes Sedai, wise ones, and even the Forsaken all fit into the big &quot;One Power&quot; explanation category.  Machin Shin seems to be a manifestation of the taint on saidin.  But what the hell is Mordeth?  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 17:06:27
subject: <b>Another interesting quote</b>
body:
Who or what Mordeth exactly is is still quite a mystery.  From Fain himself we got that he is around since the Trolloc Wars, when he was councilor of the King of Aridhol and his plans to fight the Shadow &quot;created&quot; Mashadar. But was it really his first incarnation? <br /><br />There is the &quot;except...&quot; quote but there's also what Aginor says at the EotW when he explained how he tracked Mat because of the dagger : &quot;an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot;.  It's quite puzzling given that Aginor was long bound at the time of the Trolloc Wars and in theory wouldn't know much about Mashadar and/or Mordeth - unless it has an AOL backstory we still don't know about and that Mordeth himself forgot.<br /><br />Later (EotW, 19)Lanfear seems to sense some evil about the dagger too but she only tells Rand to get rid of it or to bury it if he insists. In any case, she didn't seem to know a lot about it or to be too worried about Shadar Logoth's evil spreading. Presumably, she would have worried if it was a power object or Evil that could hurt the Chosen.<br /><br />I wonder if &quot;Mordeth&quot; (or a previous incarnation) could be another shadowspawn experience of Aginor destined to create chaos by introducing a &quot;Mashadar&quot; in the enemy camp during the War of Power but gone out of his master's control and kept secret by him, stealing body after body until it finally succeeded to give birth to &quot;Mashadar&quot; but long after Aginor was bound (and possibly armed with a defective ter'angreal).


created: 2002-01-28 20:14:09
subject: <b>A number of things</b>
body:
A number of comments on the things in these posts.<br /><br />When Rand went back to SL, his wound pulsed in time to the evil their, responding to it.  I think this means that they are still linked in some way and the destruction of SL will hurt Fain severly.<br /><br />The dager does have special powers.  It can kill with a single touch.  I also seem to remember Fain doing something to a boy and his mother at one point and thinking that it was an old power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 22:17:45
subject: <b>Excellent thought Dom!</b>
body:
Aginor's quote about the dagger being an &quot;old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot; is an excellent addition to this discussion.  <br />    What I have been thinking is that the dagger/Shador Logoth evil was brought into this world long before the Trolloc Wars.  I also think that it is a very excellent idea that Aginor created the ter'angreal.  I loved your idea about Aginor creating Mashadar as a weapon and then losing control of it.  This definitely sounds like something Aginor would make.  I also wanted to add that the way that Mordeth moved inside Shadar Logoth was strikingly similar to the gholam.  Does anyone here see a connection?  Aginor may have created the Mashadar/Mordeth/dagger/whatever it is with the properties of a gholam in mind.  Many people have banged their heads over this similarity, some even suggested that Mordeth is a gholam, but to me Aginor creating both the gholam and Mordeth is a much better theory.  <br />    And somehow this all has to do with the dagger.  Perhaps the dagger was the control unit that gave Aginor control over the Mordeth evil.  <br />    I would imagine this dagger was lost, and then rediscovered (much like Bilbo's ring) around the time of the trolloc wars.<br />    To extend my analogy from the Lord of the Rings a little further, isn't it interesting that Gollum was the one who discovered the ring?  Perhaps now, we may have our very first real connection between a gholam and Gollum.(this is all based on my original comparison between the ring of power and Fain's dagger).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 10:08:41
subject: <b>WoT Short Story</b>
body:
I hope the next Short Story will be &quot;The Fall of Aridhol&quot;.<br /><br />By the way, great theory! I have always thought that Shadar Logoth is a evil made by man, not Dark One.


created: 2002-01-29 12:41:25
subject: <b>Not made evil</b>
body:
I think that the dagger became infected with the evil of SL like everything else in the city.Mordeth was bound to SL.<br />When he was released from SL he didn't want to go back but he had to stay close to part of the city - the dagger.<br /><br /><br />I like the ideas that:<br /><br />(i) The dagger is a ter'angreal<br />(ii) Mordeth is shadow spawn<br /><br />(i) I do not see why the dagger, if it where ter'angreal, should be faulty and do not think it was made by an Aes <br />Sedai in service of the DO.When Mordeth found it, it may have given him some as yet unknown power and he <br />wanted to keep it.It was later infected by evil.<br /><br />(ii) But I thought that he had the ability to move like a gholam because he had lost his body (he would possess the <br />body of someone who brought him out of SL).


created: 2002-01-29 13:28:21
subject: <b>but what do the Forsaken know?</b>
body:
&quot;Perhaps the dagger was the control unit that gave Aginor control over the Mordeth evil. <br />I would imagine this dagger was lost, and then rediscovered (much like Bilbo's ring) around the time of the trolloc wars.&quot;<br /><br />I like that (and the rather subtle Gollum vs. Sauron vs. Frodo connection it would bring).  Another ingenious device is that Fain seeking revenge for what Ishamael and the DO have done to him would hide very well that Mordeth is seeking revenge on his maker too.  I'd have to check the books if there's any clear instance of Mordeth talking about revenge for what was done to him beyond Aridhol or if that's always his Fain side that speaks.<br /><br />Another little Fain puzzle is that he recognized the person who came to rescue him in Fal Dara. As far as we know, the only Forsaken he had dealt with was Ba'alzamon but Ishamael already knew him for a traitor (and wouldn't have surprised Fain anyway). It can hardly be Liandrin since her orders seemed to have been to find Rand and make sure he was brought to Tar Valon under Aes Sedai control where Ishamael (and maybe Mesaana) could come and deal with him with a circle of Black Ajah near at hand.... unless the Gray Man could kill him first (or was it really destined to kill Siuan Sanche and open a door to the BA to advance its position in the Tower now that Rand was going there?).<br /><br />Since Fain thought Ba'alzamon to be the DO, yet later (as Ordeith in the Two Rivers) recalls having played in the hands of both the DO himself and Forsaken, it makes me think that Lanfear could be the Forsaken that manipulated him and that he recognized in the dungeon. Why he would recognize her is another puzzle. She could be the one that set him toward Toman Head via Cairhien (leaving her enough oppportunities to work on Rand and confusing Ishamael), while Ishamael's Fades wanted to bring the Horn to Shayol Ghul - and presumably the traitor Fain was supposed to be killed in Fal Dara and not be a member of the expedition. <br /><br />For sure, the Dark Prophecy that mentions both the victory of Lanfear over Rand and gives clues to go to Toman Head smells like a Lanfear-type device a lot : not only she just *loves* giving clues like that about her involvement but later on she used a similar device and manufactured clues in the Tower to put the girls on the track of the Black Ajah in Tear and forestall Mesaana/Be'lal without appearing to be involved. (and I'm pretty sure Verin smelled a rat about the Prophecy and it's what motivated her to follow Rand. One way or another Verin is often involved in events related to that prophecy : following the Hunt, giving Egwene the key to Lanfear's domain, being with the heroes on Toman Head, she studied for 40 y. the manuscript about Ba'alzamon being Ishamael, she's in the Two Rivers with Luc/Isam etc. and she's quite interested in Rand's friends that he is supposed to sacrifice, not to mention she's the one to puzzle out &quot;Hammer of Light&quot; and the one who is very bizzarely interested in Perrin's hammer in TSR. That makes a lot of coincidences, but that's for another theory!).  In any case, it makes one wonder what Lanfear, and for that matter the other Forsaken beside Aginor, really know about Mordeth/Fain. <br /><br />Was Mordeth really able to sense the dagger in Tar Valon from as far as the Two Rivers or was he clued on its whereabouts by a Forsaken? (Lanfear again would have known it's there and the Horn too and she might have clued Fain to create a wildcard in the others' plans). As far as I remember, the Tower forsaken didn't go through much trouble to keep the dagger from Fain, yet Mordeth worried another enough (I forget who) to send Luc/Isam to kill him, with Trollocs and Fades by small groups in the Ways etc. - overall a fair amount of efforts to take revenge on a simple renegade.<br /><br />I can see the similarities with the gholam too, but it's a bit vague to me - it's been too long since I read the books involving the gholam and I'm up to re-reading tFoH now - I'll sure look for clues when I get there.<br /><br />Another thing are the similarities between Mashadar and Machin Shin. Perhaps the corruption of the Ways (that could possibly originate from Shadar Logoth) could be another example of how the weapon was supposed to work in the AOL, when other grown stuff was apparently common (and vital). Another interesting thing is the way Mashadar is apparently circumscribed to a location, that too is pretty convenient if one want to use the phenomenon it creates as a weapon, say against the Hall of the Servants. Another thing is that the effects seem pretty much out of the control of the One Power (or at the very least, the present AS don't seem to have a clue how to stop it). But there was also Liandrin who said that she could deal with Machin Shin and that Moiraine didn't know as much about it as she thought. <br /><br />Perhaps the trick to control the &quot;Mordeth&quot;, once it created its Mashadar and died, was to recuperate the ter'angreal that controlled it. Who knows what could happen if a man channelled through it? <br /> <br />


created: 2002-02-02 17:48:11
subject: <b>hmm..</b>
body:
Questions about ter'angrel...<br />Okay, correct me if I'm wrong on this one.. <br />Mat was &quot;healed&quot; of his link to the dagger in Tar Valon, by multiple Aes Sedai.  Wouldn't they have known that the object they were dealing with was an ter'angrel?  If it was _only_ a ter'angrel, why would they need a heavy lead box and tongs to deal with it?  If it was oringinally something like a ter'angrel but was altered by the SL taint, that might be it.  Another thought, if this is a ter'angrel that can be used by non-channelers, would the Aes Sedai know how to use it, would any of the Black Ajah teach Fain anything, and how would we know?<br />-=yes I am much better at asking questions that answering them<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-02 06:22:51
subject: <b>the evil of Aridhol</b>
body:
The end of an Age... barriers are weakening, old things coming again. Old things that can't be explained by the &quot;One Power&quot; view of the world. Things such as Wolfbrothers, Portal Stones, or the 'Finns for instance. I think that the evil of Aridhol is something like this. I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with the One Power, that the dagger itself is an object of power quite different from ter'angreals. It uses rather some strange evil that has to do with emotions and illusions. Mordeth/Fain has a power over the mind of people, he does not affect physical reality the way the One Power does. He has queer, unaccountable talents, such as knowing Darkfriends at a glance. But I do not believe that he was a creation of Aginor, because he fights the Shadow too effectively. Rather, I would attribute Aginor's words &quot;an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot; to the fact that this evil is something in the mind. Sometimes it helps the Shadow, but other times it works against it. This hate of the Shadow that makes people as hard as the Shadow must have been a phenomenon known during the War of Power as well as the Trolloc Wars. Maybe Rand's hardness now is the same thing, that is why Cadsuane must teach him laughter and tears. Because his winning the Last Battle this way would mean an Aridhol kind of victory, that would be as bad as the DO winning. Actually I'm not so sure that the last bit is true, it's just a possibility. <br /><br />And the theory was great even though I don't agree with the ter'angreal part. The dagger was always important, and now that it's the only remaining relic of Aridhol, even more than before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 12:04:03
subject: <b>It struck me that...</b>
body:
Fain/his dagger represent the wildcard of the entire series.  In fact, unequivocally it appears that the entire result of the last battle will hinge on Fain's (??) decision with regards to the use of the dagger.<br /><br />Accordingly, the vision of the 3 ladies around the funeral pyre with a &quot;dagger&quot; holding fate/balance in its hands seem to drive this point home.  (Of course, Egwene's own permutation had Logain holding the/a dagger and laughing immediately prior to the &quot;traditional&quot; viewing, is itself something to ponder)<br /><br />Regardless, I would tend to think that the &quot;it's an angreal&quot; aspect may actually belittle the raw power &amp; corrupting influence that mordeth/padan fain represent.<br /><br />I don't profess to know what it is, other than either consummate evil or chaos or some facsimile thereof.<br /><br />If anything, I tend to think that-- just as all of the WOT universe is a morality play/mythological construct of/by RJ-- Fain's decision will be played out between his stated desire to see the demise of Rand al'Thor and his desire to no longer be subject  /return to the leash the GLOD subjected him to when he was &quot;just&quot; a DarkFriend.


created: 2002-06-20 19:02:27
subject: <b>Being Misty</b>
body:
I seem to remember something about Fain appearing out of the mists in the hills outside Carhein or something like that.  Cadsuane had to heal Rand and he almost blinked out.  That's when he got the second wound.  Now I think this is a little much, but somehow I think it is true.  I think that Fain/Mordeth is floating in the air most of the time, being misty.  How else could he travel as much as he does.  He seems to have no purpose, except opposing Rand and the possibly the DO.  He seems to &quot;appear&quot; in places that there is no reason for him to appear into, except to try and take out the owner of the voice in his head.  He tries to get away, but something, maybe the dagger makes his go after Rand.  I think the dagger makes Fain/Mordeth take on solid form, maybe it needs to suck up evil or something, but it is very powerful and very evil, but I don't think it is a Terangreal or a Angreal, nor is it a product of the Flinn's, it is something else entirely.  Just an ordinary dagger that became extrodinary somehow.  How it became that way, I have no idea<br /><br />Just because Mat didn't use that power, doesn't mean the dagger is not powerful.  Mat is not always the most observant fellow, nor would he be seeking out more power.  The thing made him very sick and he was out of his head.  It would be like looking through bad fish to see where the bacteria was that made you puke.  It may have also even thought Mat was not a good enough host or something like that, so it just concentrated on killing him and the pattern saved his butt and the dagger reunited with Fain


created: 2002-07-23 19:49:35
subject: <b>An overlooked source of power</b>
body:
ok, we know that the dagger, or at least some essence (power?) of it led Aginor to the EOTW, and that he recognized it as &quot;and old thing, and old friend, an old enemy&quot; and so on.  We also know that Aginor was the big inventor for the shadow in the AOL.  He's responsible for the Trollocs (and indirectly the Myrdraal), the gholam (which DID have some interesting similarities with Mordeth), the Draghkar, and who knows what else.<br /><br />We know that the Aes Sedai who healed Mat of the dagger regarded the dagger as &quot;an evil thing/a filthy thing/etc.&quot; but definitely NOT as a ter'angreal, which would have interested any Aes Sedai.  <br /><br />Now, here's the kicker.  Can you think of any source of power, probably evil, that Aginor or the other Forsaken would have had access to in the AOL?  I can.<br /><br />The True Power.  The Dark One's equivalent of the One Power.  Fueled by Shai'tan's evil, and channeled by the Forsaken (if on rare occasion), why couldn't it have been conceived to make a ter'angreal, or its equivalent, with the True Power?  <br /><br />I can't speculate as to the original purpose of such a ter'angreal (heh, third age aes sedai don't know the purpose of half of the ter'angreal they use), but I'm sure some of you could.<br /><br />That's it.  My $0.02


created: 2002-08-20 21:46:33
subject: <b>A completly new theory. (1 +2=3) (A little wordy)</b>
body:
1)The ruby on the hilt plays a more important role in this enigma than the dagger itself.<br />The only reason Mat took the dagger and kept it was because of the Ruby. The Ruby has been mentioned many times, but the dagger itself leaves a descriptive void (correct me if I am wrong, I don't mind, but DON'T call me opinion wrong!), it has a pointy cutting edge, and thats all I can rememer.<br /><br />2)The ter'angle theory sparked a thought. What if something was created that could syphon off power through a channeler till that channel burned himself/herself out? This could have been a powerful tool against any channeller. If it was made against Aes Sedai by a forsaken, this could explain Agrinor's(Spelling?) quip about Fain/Dagger/Mordeth/Mashadar/Aridhol being a friend. Now ofcourse, if the tool was stolen by an agent of light, and weilded against the Forsaken, this would explain Agrinor's quote about &quot;an enemy.&quot; Therfore, lets say that the tool needed somewhere to store the energy, be it shadow or light, what would be a logical choice? Now crossreferencing to Maggie Furey's Aurian Saga, crystals ARE the most efficient thing for storing energy. Therefore the storage unit of this tool could be a crystal or a... RUBY! After thought which should go in the paragraph but was thought up too late: Also the tool could have been used to absorb any attacks by the DO verses the Aes Sedai who were sealing the DO away.<br /><br />3)I think that the Aes Sedai gained control of this tool and somewho contrived a way to syphon off the power of the forsaken. In the following eras, the dagger made it's way to Aridhol. Now if Mordeth was responsible for the evil (or directly linked),he could have obtained the dagger as a sign of office for his position as a  Consuler. Now either two paths develope: <br />A)The energy stored in the Ruby, comming from the Dark One via the Forsaken some how corrupted or flawed the tool. (It happens every time, just when someone makes something Evil proof, they make a better Evil...) The DO power corrupts the Ruby causing it to radiate the evil power of  the DO into the city of Aridhol, BUT the corruption of the DO actually corrupted the imprisoned power within the Ruby, thus making Mashadar different from the DO.<br />OR<br />B)Mordeth tried to remove the Ruby or even released the energy accidentally, thus screwing all the people of Aridhol to eternal Hell. (This is the direct connection line.)<br />Which ever point is correct: the DO taint twisted upon itself making it like a radioactive evil. As one becomes infected, it sends out little evil isotopes and infects more, and on and on. The first infection must be made by prolonged contact though, or even all infections. The Aes Sedai used a heavy lead box to block the &quot;Radiation&quot;.<br />General unworditis version.<br />1)Ruby stores power.<br />2) DO power stored in Ruby, corrupting itself and its prison.<br />3)Mordeth released it by accident or it escaped on it own, infecting Aridhol like radiation.<br />4)The End<br /><br />-Tski


created: 2002-09-11 16:58:58
subject: <b>Fain as Gollum from LotR</b>
body:
This theory makes even more sense when you consider how many parallels there were between the first WoT book and The Lord of the Rings trilogy.  Even the names are similar:  Mat = Meri, Perrin = Peregrine, Egwene = Eowyn, Bela the small mare = Bill the pony, Ogiers = Ents.<br /><br />So if the dagger is a parallel to the One Ring, maybe Fain represents Gollum.  Does this mean he and Rand will have a battle over power in the end, where Fain dies by his own greed?  Will Mat fight Fain at Tarmon Gai'don?<br /><br />Yeah, I really like this theory!  It opens up some new lines of thought.<br /><br />And I also think it might explain the illusion Rand saw in Far Madding.  Fain is getting more powerful AND more currupted by the dagger.  He'll probably not look human anymore by the time he next faces Rand.


created: 2002-09-30 10:29:05
subject: <b>Saidin stuff up with the ways</b>
body:
This theory has merit and I would just like to connect the corroding power of such a Terangreal with the corruption of the Ways.  The Male Aes Sedai made the ways using tainted Saidin and over time, they corrupted.  In fact I think it was around the time of the Ten Nations when Mordeth showed up on the scene at Aridhol that the corruption of the ways was noticed.  Could not a terangreal with the power to defeat the dark one created at such a time also corrode with time?  My compliments to the thinker on this one and keep up the good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-16 19:29:11
subject: <b>Good Theory!</b>
body:
Wow, I never really thought that much about the dagger being different from anything else in Shadar Logoth.  For some reason I thought that Mordeth was less a man, but more like a creation of some sort by one of the Forsaken... but that didn't explain Mashadar...<br />I love your theory!  And I totally agree with you!  Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I a star beneathe the stairs?<br />Am I a ghost upon the stage?<br />Am I your anything?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-26 16:29:21
subject: <b>fains dagger a link to that other evil?</b>
body:
that other evil which might be in a different dimension? like TAR? the knife of dreams may very well be fain's dagger.<br /><br />and abby, perrin may sound like peregrin, and mat may sound like meri, but the characters are very different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 18:40:17
subject: <b>&quot;except...&quot; is not the dagger. period.</b>
body:
well it was mentioned earlier that Mordeth says &quot;you can take anything except...except...&quot;  and then he cuts off with Rand's comment.  he is clearly not talking about the dagger in any way because at this point Mat already has the dagger, which was handed to him.<br /><br />When Rand finds out later in the book (i forgot where exactly) that Mat has the dagger he says something along the lines of &quot;Mat, you heard what Moiraine said, you can't take anything out of Shadar Logoth&quot; wherein Mat replies &quot;i didn't take it, he (Mordeth) gave it to me.  so it doesn't follow the rules...etc.&quot;  since i don't have the book on me, i can't quote exactly how it goes, but along those lines.  from this we understand that Mordeth at some point handed Mat the dagger, so obviously he was not referring to the dagger when he says &quot;anything except...&quot; because if he did, he would have had it well hidden.


created: 2008-11-28 14:29:45
subject: <b>Agree that the dagger is what Mordeth was refering to</b>
body:
Woah no one talked about this one for awhile. About the last post, you have it backward. Moiraine asked if he had given them anything and they say no. Then later when Rand sees Mat with the dagger Mat says Moiraine's warning doesn't count because he took it himself.


created: 2002-01-27 17:27:07
subject: <b>You</b>
body:
ignore the point that Demandred is meant to be keeping an eye on Rand. I don't see how being in the WCs could do that. If you were to use his abscence as a way for him to keep an eye on Rand, you have to make allowances for Demandred being yet another person in disguise. Plus I don't see how Demandred's keeping an eye on Rand every so often when he's not being Saren is a good idea. I mean, why is he one of those keeping an eye on Rand if he's so far away from him all the time, as he would be as a WC?<br /><br />I honestly don't think the WCs have a Forsaken among them. They are certainly manipulated by the Shadow through the likes of Carridin. Which brings up the question, if the WCs are Demandred's domain, what's Sammael doing ordering Carridin, especially when, if my memory serves me correctly, he recognised Sammael on the spot, therefore showing that Sammael has done it before.<br /><br />I think it's far more likely that Sammael was the Forsaken attached to the WCs (not actually one of them).


created: 2002-01-27 22:30:36
subject: <b>Three,</b>
body:
The Forsaken aren't ones to mind each other's business, at least not wrt the Black Ajah. Alviarin mentions being ordered by Ba'alzamon, as well as being forced into T'A'R by Bel'al, iirc. <br /><br /><br />Rabidwonbat, your theory doesn't account for the prologue of book 6, where Demandred gives the DO's instructions: &quot;Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether from excitement or fear. It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler.&quot;<br /><br />I don't see how control of the Whitecloaks hands them everything.


created: 2002-01-28 03:28:25
subject: <b>I know</b>
body:
It's just that people who use the idea that Demandred must be with the WCs as surely someone is always seem to forget that Sammael was.


created: 2002-01-28 15:49:03
subject: <b>I don't think my theory is perfect either (as it stands).</b>
body:
I don't think my theory is perfect (as it stands).  If I was an administator it would probably be 50/50 whether I would let it through.  Personally, I think Saren is the best option (but only by default) right now.  All the other alternatives are much worse.  Nowhere do I say that Demandred must be in the WCs only that it is a possibility. <br /><br />As far as Demandred keeping an eye on Rand, the same chapter mentions that Demandred was hoping to stumble into Rand.  This means that Demandred is nowhere near Rand!  That leaves a network of eyes and ears and running a DF network of spies (as Demandred-not posing as someone else) as the most likely way that Demandred is watching over Rand.  The best networks of eyes and ears are those run by the AS (fat chance Demandred has access to those) and to those run by the WCs.<br /><br />As far as Demandred's risky plan I don't know.  (I defy anyone to come up with a plan for any of the other candidates as well, let's be fair!)  My gut feeling looking at the map is that Demandred's plan is to use the WCs (and possibly the prophets men) to pave the way for Semirhage's Seanchen.  After the Seanchen are fairly established, the WCs will sweep N and East through Ghealdean and into Lugard where he will collect Roerdan's army (I believe Demandred is manipulating Roedran somehow.)  After securing Whitebridge, assuming Mesaana is in charge of TV (which is an open question and makes the plan risky) the Southern lands will be cut off from the Borderlands.  From there everything depends on TV.  With TV secure Caemlyn would make an inviting target.  <br /><br />I am not saying that this is Demandred's plan, only that it is easily possible to have a plan with the WCs can you say the same for Bashere or Norry or Weiramon or Dobraine?  (OK, Taim would make a perfect place as well to form a risky plan but we all know the evidence against Taim.) The beauty of this plan is that it is a <b>military</b> plan.  Demandred is a general.  He wants to defeat LTT on the field.  <br /><br />Besides the Asha'man, Seanchen, AS, and WCs which groups of people are capable and willing to fight Rand?  We know that Mesaana is with the AS, (most think that Semirhage is with the Seanchen) this leaves Demandred with the WCs and/or Asha'man and/or the prophets men.  The prophet doesn't need too much nudging to do what Demandred needs, create chaos for the Seanchen to conquer.  On the other hand, Pedon Niall has ambitions of his own and needs to be controlled.  No DF can make Niall decide to cause chaos in Tarabon when it was needed (for Semirhage's Seanchen) and reverse course and quarentine them when it was needed for the Seanchen as well (not to mention Pedron caused more chaos in Altara with &quot;dragonsworn&quot; just before the Seanchen attack there)!  It has to be compulsion.   <br /><br />My hypothesis is admitedly imperfect, but it does have somthing very few other theories (besides Taimendred) have: Demandred acting as a General.  I think that has to count for something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 00:09:22
subject: <b>Who ever said it was Demandred's plan that was risky?</b>
body:
I never even got that idea. It seemed to me Demandred was repeating orders that the DO gave to him - hence it being the DO's plan, and not Demandred's.<br /><br />He could easily be with the Whitecloaks. After all, isn't Osen'gar the one responsible for &quot;watching over&quot; Rand? And there isn't too many geographical areas &quot;in the south&quot; where Demandred could be. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Demandred DID watch the Darkfriends killed. After all, the DO encouraged his followers to kill each other, and I'm sure if they got themselves caught, Demandred wouldn't risk anything at all to save people he probably felt were getting what they deserved for getting caught to begin with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves as the wheel wills...but I still control my thread.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 01:28:31
subject: <b>it's good...</b>
body:
I like this theory primarily because it is a battle plan and you know that Damandred is going to want to defeat Rand in some type of egotisticle way. Remember also that the prophet was meeting with the seanchan so there could be a correlation between those two groups, the WC's and Demandred. Plus, it's in the south, chaos is being stirred, Niall was acting whacky until he was whacked, and all the activity down in that region has been widely overlooked by the good guys with the exception of Perrin, yet it has been included in much of the storyline. So I like it.


created: 2002-01-29 10:12:51
subject: <b>Why</b>
body:
do you dismiss Norry? Personally I think that is a far better theory than any other on this subject.


created: 2002-01-29 13:46:41
subject: <b>About Norry</b>
body:
I can't prove that Norry isn't Demandred.  It is a possibility.  I just don't think it is a very likely one.  I believe that for simple reason that I don't think Norry is in a position to do the things that Demandred would like to do.  The BWB says that Demandred did govern but he almost always went back to being a general because he was obsessed with beating LTT on the field.  His point of view at the end of WH emphasized that he was a &quot;soldier&quot; and a &quot;general&quot;.  Besides trying to use compulsion on Elayne, Bashere, or Bael to gain control of military forces, what use would Norry's position be to Demandred?  (Yet there is no evidence that I can see of strange military behavior by any of these parties.)  I suppose that he could use the cover of Norry waiting for the right time to strike, but that doesn't seem to be Demandred's style nor does it play to his strengths.<br /><br />I can't see Demandred assuming Norry's identity willingly (any real use he could get out of the position would be better served by inserting a DF).  Neither can I see Demandred being happy about being assigned that position by the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 15:02:34
subject: <b>Norry</b>
body:
Here's a quote from WH: &quot;the First Clerk had the power to bring a queen to her knees if unchecked.&quot;<br /><br />Then there is the Forsaken symbol at the start of a chapter with no Forsaken in, but Norry is in it.<br /><br />I would think Deamndred's orders from the DO (whether he likes them or not, the DO gives orders, he obeys) were to gain a position where he could keep an eye on Rand, yet spread chaos without being noticed. Why would Demandred have to keep an eye on Rand though? Osan'gar as Dashiva was around Rand all the time, why couldn't he do it? Because there was one place no Asha'man was allowed, Caemlyn.<br /><br />If it was Saren, which I don't believe, Demandred would have an incredibly difficult time keeping an eye on Rand. He'd have to be Travelling all the time (even if he is using spies in Caemlyn he has to get the info from them) and would have to have yet another disguise so that Rand wouldn't recognise him in case he was seen.<br /><br />I just think Saren is another diversion.<br /><br />It will be interesting when to see who is right though (out of everyone, not just us two of course) when Demandred's identity is finally revealed (whether just to us through clues or obviously to the characters in the book too). PLEASE let it be the next book, I can't take another 3 years of this.


created: 2002-01-29 17:14:12
subject: <b>Trouble in south</b>
body:
Who said that &quot;chaos in south&quot; has to be in the southern lands of Randland? Isn&#8217;t it true that DO sealed in the lands, which are in the north of Borderlands? When I was reading this passage my thought was the DO said about causing chaos in south in general terms, meaning &#8220;south from where I stand&#8221;, which is all Randland.


created: 2002-01-30 16:02:12
subject: <b>His name is:</b>
body:
Einor Saren, second-in-command of the Hand of the Light (under Carridin).<br /><br />He was absent from books 3-5, only appearing in tGH and LoC<br /><br />See http://www.isl.net/~wjhamm/book2/chron.html#Saren  for my description.<br /><br />Since he's only mentioned briefly in only two books, I'd have to say that he's probably not a person of huge importance, such as Demandred.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 17:24:11
subject: <b>Norry</b>
body:
In the BWB, it says Demandred quickly returned to the field &quot;<i>not because of any love of war, but because he wanted to be personally responsible for Lews Therin's defeat</i>&quot;. This seems to suggest that the only reason he was determined to be in the front lines was because he wanted to defeat the Dragon, NOT because he was compulsive over being a general. <br />Which means that if he thinks he can get close to Rand by being Norry and later fight him man to man with the OP, or perhaps turn Andor against him, he probably wouldn't have a problem with being something other than a general for a time. So Norrydred is still a distinct possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 21:52:41
subject: <b>Sarendred suits me</b>
body:
I agree with the thought process. Until RJ tells us his view (he could well be wrong of course), we will not know.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/7289.gif" /> <font color="3399FF"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Druid</font></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/7289.gif" /><br /><font face="Comic Sans MS">The Old Man of Oz</font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><font face="Comic Sans MS"> Object of Desire (retired) </font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><font face="Comic Sans MS"><b> The People's Front For Wongy Jnr. </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I blame Alric&quot;</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.iscv.org.au/images/iscv1.jpg" target="_blank">That's my little puppy!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 01:52:11
subject: <b>Timing</b>
body:
We have to ask as well - Could Demandred be free from the prison only a month after Aginor and Balthamel? and have already assumed the position of a high level White Cloak.  I think the WC's are too suspicious of events to not notice one of their own being taken over by a completely different person.


created: 2002-05-01 20:05:38
subject: <b>Blasphemy</b>
body:
First of all, I take offence to the term &quot;Whitecloak&quot;.  <br /><br />Second of all, it is absurd to suggest that the Children of the Light have darkfriends or Forsaken among them, they're entire intent is based on the eradication of darkfriends. For suggesting such a thing I name YOU a darkfriend!!!  So there.  Jaichim Carridin's infiltration of the Children was a terrible tragedy but nonetheless it was a unique one.  I ask you this, what possible gain could a Forsaken get from an organization that is wholeheartedly dedicated to the destruction of the shadow and the Gre... Dark One?!  Their are no other darkfriends or Chos... I mean Forsaken among the children, and that is final.<br /><br />The Lord Captain Commander <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-08 01:21:23
subject: <b>Demandred is using Eamon Valda as a proxie</b>
body:
Demandred might be using EV. You never know, it's good to have control of the man who is in command of one of the largest military groups. He would certainly be able to use him well. Personally I belive demandred is also controlling Masema and Taim, but is in fact in the Borderland armies as a captain or general, this gives good chance for a battle with Rand.<br /><br />Think about it.


created: 2002-11-15 09:49:06
subject: <b>Demandred truly revealed!</b>
body:
Demandred is Bela the horse, just biding her time until s/he can wreak havoc throughout the Two Rivers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When all has been said and done, more has been said than done&quot;- I can't remember who said this.<br /><br />I am recently of the opinion that ee cummings is the greatest poet who ever lived.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Forever!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 14:33:42
subject: <b>well then</b>
body:
I've bandied about a few different ideas about Demandred myself as he is the only remaining forsaken still wrapped in mystery really.  I've read a few of the threads here that have a wide range of possibilities for where he is hiding.  Most of them sound fairly plausible in many respects.  Norry....makes sense in a lot of ways.  Saren....also has some validity.  Taim...makes the most sense but also has the largest number of conflicting details simply because Taim is such an important character as to be in a lot of the story.<br /><br />What I have finally come to believe is that Demandred is simply Demandred.  He isn't hiding anywhere under an assumed identity.  As Sammael said...he uses proxies to do his work.  I do think that he has had a hand in either events among the whitecloaks, events among the prophet and his army or both.  I don't think that he is hiding as someone else among any of them though.<br /><br />Just my opinion and some day Jordan will write it all out and prove one of our theories right...or all of them wrong =D


created: 2002-01-28 12:41:44
subject: <b>Ta'veren attract each other not negate each other</b>
body:
The statement that if both Ishmael and Hawking where both ta'veren they would both have an equal mass and there for not attract each other can not be true.  <br /><br />Lets examine Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  Rand attracts Perrin and Mat MORE forcefully then he does any other single person.  This means that ta'veren attract each other not negate each other.<br /><br />But Ishamel does seem to be naturally drawn to anyone that is ta'veren.  He located Rand, Mat, and Perrin and talks to them in their dreams at exactly the same time that thier status as ta'veren starts working.  He is also drawn to Hawkwing.  From this data it is more reasonable to sya that Ishmael is ta'veren then he is not.  Though I am not deciding for myself at this point.


created: 2002-01-28 13:08:22
subject: <b>ta'veren to ta'veren</b>
body:
In regarding Priest's comment, the multiple ta'veren do act on each other just like the space/time analogy suggests.<br />For example, think of mega-ta'veren Rand like the sun, and &quot;lesser&quot; ta'veren Mat and Perrin like large planets: though M&amp;P both attract a great deal on their own, they are still overpowered by the pull of the greater force, Rand.<br />The DO's ability to partially negate this force in his direct minions also makes more sense to me than having them be dark ta'veren. My biggest reason? I don't recall any of the Forsaken being ta'veren-like before turning to the dark one, and if the DO could make people ta'veren after they join him, why not do it all the time? (Especially when there weren't good ta'veren around to get in the way.)<br />


created: 2002-01-28 14:14:33
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
Isn't the whole point of ta'veren being to bring about some momentous thing that the wheel requires to maintain balance in the universe? The wheel spins out ta'veren when they are required, and, from what we've read, they tend to be required to do something to counter darkness - Hawkwing bringing order to the continent and eventually being the progenitor of the Seachan, who will have a sizable role to play at TG. Also, our three heros, needing to be around to fight the battle of TG against the darkness.<br /><br />The idea is that the wheel is neutral, maintaining a balance in the events of the universe. At the same time, the DO puts his fingers in as many places as he can, and the creator takes a mainly hands-off approach (bunch of bloody deists...) At any rate, because of this imbalance created by the supreme beings' respective roles in the universe, the wheel only spins out &quot;good&quot; ta'veren.<br /><br />Rob <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 14:24:20
subject: <b>The Dark One Wouldn't WANT Ta'veren Either</b>
body:
If I remember my Jordan Sunday School classes properly, the Dark One wants to destroy the Pattern and bring the Wheel of Time to a permanent halt.  Therefore, the Dark One wouldn't work by creating ta'veren around whom the Pattern is woven to meet their needs.  He would want to free his trusted minions from the Pattern as much as possible.  <br /><br />It would be the equivalent of the Dark One seeing a loose thread and pulling on it as much as possible to unravel the Pattern.  Such loose threads wouldn't be woven back in by the ta'veren, and they wouldn't find their actions twisted by ta'veren power unless they try to get &quot;mixed up&quot; with the ta'veren thread by attacking the ta'veren directly.  Such an action would, in effect, &quot;sew&quot; the Forsaken back into the main &quot;warp and weave&quot; of the Pattern.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 15:56:40
subject: <b>Nice thoughts The Voice of Lews Therin</b>
body:
The DO doesn't want the forsaken being ta'veren (because the ta'veren willing or not serve the pattern);  yet we see the complicated and sometimes brilliant plans of Ishy and the rest always being sucked up into the pattern.  The ending of the first three books prove that, no matter how hard ISHY tried the pattern always found a way to manipulate ISHY against himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 16:36:34
subject: <b>What confuses me...</b>
body:
The thing that's always confused me is that the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern right? Balefire burns the pattern, so why doesn't he just encourage balefire?<br /><br />As for the Dark One wanting to keep his minions free of the pattern as much as possible, I personally believe if he gets free, he won't care about those who helped him get there.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-28 23:43:53
subject: <b>Bodies of Equal Mass...</b>
body:
Actually, two bodies of equal mass accelerate each other, not negate each other.  Which is what I'd think two ta'veren would do - be drawn together.


created: 2002-01-28 23:45:05
subject: <b>He DOES encourage Balefire</b>
body:
Think back. Who decided not to use Balefire anymore? The Forsaken. They decided that there's no point in winning if there isn't a world to rule. I highly doubt the DO told them to stop. Remember the beginning to Lord of Chaos? Here's a direct quote: &quot;WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?&quot;<br /><br />Pretty much sums up the DO's opinion, don't you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves as the wheel wills...but I still control my thread.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 10:59:36
subject: <b>It's the wheel</b>
body:
I always thought it was the wheel that the DO wanted to destroy, not the pattern.  If he could destroy the wheel that constantly locks him in his prison, then time would stop and he would be in charge of the pattern.  Making and unmaking ALL lives/threads in the pattern as he wanted.<br />   Jordan talks about the pattern like lace (I think it was a Lace of Ages that Moir said was being built around Rand).  All ta'veran being the central turning points of the lace.  All the surrounding threads get pulled in and used, tied up, and come out somewhere else to create the lace.  Picturing everyone as threads, that includes the Forsaken that get close to Rand (trying to manipulate him).  It also can explain how things that happen so far away are able to help Rand.  Some lace creates a picture that you have to step a little ways away to see.  A section that is completely unrelated close up, is integeral to the design when viewed a step or two back.<br /><br />Just my thoughts.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-29 13:36:33
subject: <b>DO and the patern</b>
body:
The DO does not want to destroy the pattern under any circumstances.  He wants to corrupt the pattern to his own evil use but not destroy it.  The DO is as much of the pattern as anything else is...remeber that to get to him they bore a hole trough the pattern to reach him.  I think that to eliminate the pattern would also eliminate the DO.  His real goal is the complete and utter corruption of the pattern to his own benefit.


created: 2002-01-29 19:11:41
subject: <b>Completely off the wall</b>
body:
This may have nothing to do with this thread, but I think it needs mentioned. I have a theory that the DO and the Creator are in fact the same entity. Now, before you stop reading this, please read on. Bear in mind that the Creator is not as directly involved in the ta'veren of the world, (Rand, Mat, Perrin). He does not lead them, tell them what to do, or interfere with their actions. Now look at the DO. He is as directly involved with the world as one possibly could while still imprisoned. His &quot;mission&quot; of sorts is to break free from his imprisonment so that he can remake the pattern in his own image. It sounds like the DO is doing all the work he possibly can to break free, and the Creator is doing nothing. Here's my theory: The Creator is actually the Dark One. For whatever reason, when he created the Pattern, he was imprisoned outside of it. Now he spends his days trying to break back into his creation. I'm not saying the Creator is evil, nor am I saying that what he wants is evil, but I am thinking that this would solve the apperant silence from the Creator, and the &quot;string-pulling&quot; that the DO goes through in order to win TG. Now, here is where the ta'veren theory comes in. I think that a ta'veren is a &quot;safety net&quot; for the pattern that allows the pattern to maintain balance, while protecting itself from the DO/Creator's interference. Thus, the DO/Creator cannot make himself ta'veren, and must try other means to get himself into the Pattern again. This is most likely wrong, but the Mods won't post this theory and now seemed the best time to voice my opinion. If your still reading, thanks.<br /><br /><br />~Raistlin Majere~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Archmagus of the Black Robes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-30 00:09:28
subject: <b>I'm with rob the poser except......</b>
body:
The idea of only good ta'veren makes sense.  all the heroes of the horn(ta'veren folk)that we know of so far have been good and always with be good.  they live basically the same lives.  but what if a hero who did evil deeds could become a ta'veren.  if they come only in an age long forgotten for ex... in the third age many ages ago, TG was fought and obviously one.  a evil person almost turned the tables and gave the DO his victory.  Great deeds, but not good Great deeds.  This person could be spun out again and relive his/her evil life. Good ta'veren to balance evil, bad ta'veren to balance good.  any agreements?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 08:16:16
subject: <b>All Ta'veren may not be good</b>
body:
Look at what Hawkwing says when he comes after he is called by the horn.  He claims that he has fought against Rand and often as with Rand.  The Dragon is supposed to be the ultimate embodiment of the forces of good yet hawkwing has fought against him.  THis does not neccecerily mean that hawkwing ever sided with evil but it does imply the possibility.  Do not rip me apart for saying hawkwing has served evil because I am not saying that he did.  But you have to keep all the possibilites open until we have proof otherwise which we just do nto have at this point.


created: 2002-01-30 16:09:51
subject: <b>Good point priest</b>
body:
Although Hawkwings definition of against may be someting like...<br />        Fought against him controlling all the nations.  he was a leader.<br /> <br />        Fought against him for the shadow.  all that the DO offers can be tempting sometimes.<br /><br /><br />Either way, i still think about what Birgitte said when she was in TAR.  Ta'veren lead basically the same life with finer details.  I don't remember the exact quote.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 10:20:07
subject: <b>Lews Therin and Rand</b>
body:
With all this talk about ta'veren pulling each other toward each other so strongly. Can't remember is Lews was ta'veren. But let's say he was ta'veren write or wrong it would support past theories of &quot;merging&quot;. If the ta'veren pull on each other so much then why wouldn't the two strongest ta'veren just &quot;merge&quot; together. Being forced by the wheel and the threads being directly weaved together. Like taking to strings by the end and twisting till they are almost one.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-02-01 04:53:28
subject: <b>Lews Therin was ta'veren</b>
body:
In Book 1 when Rand meets Loial for the first time in the Queen's Blessing he said that: &quot;Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter....&quot;<br />So that would definately support the 'ta'veren magnet' theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Oblivious to everything but the obvious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> The only simian ta'veren <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 14:43:09
subject: <b>On Comments On My Theory</b>
body:
I just had a couple more points, which everyone's comments brought up.<br /><br />First, Moraine was giving one of her lectures on the pattern at one point, and mentioned that the pattern is made of light theads and dark, so one could assume that ta'veren need not all be good, but as the whitecloaks, Mordeth, and other such examples point out, one does not have to side with the DO to be a far cry from &quot;good.&quot;<br /><br />Second, I think many people may have missed what is the most imprtant part of my theory, which is the very end, where I pointed out that I don't believe the DO can create within the pattern.  He can touch it and warp it, and it seems to me that he is more interested in remaking it in his own image, but as the balance of power stands now, there is nothing more he can do with it.  I can't see where he would actually want to destroy it, though.  Then again, maybe the DO is really the creator, who after all that hard work making the world, took a weekend off, dropped acid, and is now convinced creation is really just a big snow dome, and he just can't stop himself from shaking it...although that muffin theory had promise, too.


created: 2002-02-01 23:49:47
subject: <b>How about....</b>
body:
Ishmael has constantly said that he and Rand/Lews Therin have fought the same battle for aeons.  Which means that he is someone that is constantly woven back out into the pattern, implying ta'veren qualities.  He also said that in some of those battles, Rand/Lews even served the DO.  Maybe in order to keep the balance, the Pattern weaves them both out to where one is champion for the light and the other for the dark.  With the end of the AOL, the sealing of the bore changed things up a bit by giving Ishmael life indefinite in preparation for the FINAL BATTLE.  Since he was denied the chance to be reborn, people simply forgot about him through the years (assuming there were ta'verens long before the AOL).  Therefore until the DO chooses to release him, he is a ta'veren in banishment, so to speak.<br /><br />Or...maybe he isn't taveren and the DO liked the cut of his jiff and resurrects him to oppose Rand/Lews at each rebirth.<br /><br />Another thing, I seem to recall that Ishmael was free from the Seal in only mental form, meaning he could touch other people's dreams and such but couldn't stroll down the street in physical form had he wanted to.  If so, then he couldn't have been affected by Artur Hawkwing because as we've seen in the books, the ta'veren effect is strongest with physical proximity of the ta'veren.  Meaning he probably sowed the seeds of suspicion in AH through means of his dreams, untouched by the ta'veren effects.<br /><br />I dunno...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-20 17:50:18
subject: <b>Ta'veren Neutrality</b>
body:
Ta'veren are born neutral how they live determine if they are good or evil.  That is one of the reasons why the Dark One would prefer Rand alive.  Having a Ta'veren as strong as Rand working for the Dark One would be much more powerful then any normal person.  The need for him to be alive is because once Rand was to die he would no longer be Ta'veren and would therefore be of less use.  Ta'veren's are neutral also by looking at the side effects of being around them.  The seeming accidents and miracles that while improbable happen and tend to happen often when around a strong Ta'veren.  This also points to why the Dark One must take an active hand in the world.  No one would go to serve the Dark One if he was not active and offering more power.  While the Creator does not need to be active because by default one serves him.


created: 2002-01-29 12:11:56
subject: <b>Aginor and the dagger</b>
body:
I posted this thread on the blackboard to the other theory about Fain's dagger and will write it again here because I think it is pertinant.<br />Aginor's quote about the dagger being an &quot;old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot; is an excellent addition to this discussion.  Aginor seems to almost know it personally. <br />What I have been thinking is that the dagger/Shador Logoth evil was brought into this world long before the Trolloc Wars. I also think that it is a very excellent idea that Aginor created the ter'angreal. I loved Dom's idea about Aginor creating Mashadar as a weapon and then losing control of it. This definitely sounds like something Aginor would make.  And it also sounds like Aginor to make something that went out of control. I also wanted to add that the way that Mordeth moved inside Shadar Logoth was strikingly similar to the gholam.  Mat even pointed this out to Noal Charin in WH. Does anyone here see a connection? Aginor may have created the Mashadar/Mordeth//whatever it is with the properties of a gholam in mind. Many people have banged their heads over this similarity, some even suggested that Mordeth is a gholam, but to me Aginor creating both the gholam and Mordeth is a much better theory. <br />And somehow this all has to do with the dagger. Perhaps the dagger was the control unit that gave Aginor control over the Mordeth evil. <br />I would imagine this dagger was lost, and then rediscovered (much like Bilbo's ring) around the time of the trolloc wars.<br />To extend my analogy from the Lord of the Rings a little further, isn't it interesting that Gollum was the one who discovered the ring? Perhaps now, we may have our very first real connection between a gholam and Gollum.(this is all based on my original comparison between the ring of power and Fain's dagger). <br />   I think Jordan will go more in depth about this soon, especially with Shadar Logoth being destroyed.  He has dropped us a few hints (Mordeth's quote about you can take anything, except) and I think there is a bigger picture that waits to be unraveled.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 15:56:34
subject: <b>Interesting, but....</b>
body:
if this is the case, how does the ter'angreal itself infect other people with the evil if it is merely a control tool for it. And why, when it was removed from Shadar Logoth, didn't it allow the evil (eg Mashadar itself) to follow it. I can accept that the controllee can't move it, like an adam, but if it is moved by something else, the evil should follow it.<br /><br />And on a side note, in WH when Rand is done with the taint, one of the Ashamen was surprised that his wound was unchanged. I guess this is because the dagger is still around, one last fragment of Aridhol that needs to be destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 17:16:21
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
The reason that Jordan included that line about the wound still being there is to prove that anything that has already been infected by either taint (Fain, the wounds, the ways, however mad Asha'man have got) won't get better, they just won't get worse.


created: 2002-01-29 23:48:38
subject: <b>Threeinaboat is right on</b>
body:
Think of the taint as a cut.  whatever it caused in the intial contact is still there as a scar or remembrence.  Rands wound or the Asha'mans madness. rand destroyed it (or moved it) but its memory still lingers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 00:48:48
subject: <b>my thoughts</b>
body:
I posted a theory on the whole&quot; an old friend, an old enemy&quot; thing a long time ago, but it was never added to the theory post.  anyway, it seems to me that there is a personal connection between the SL evil and the forsaken.  Not just because Aginor and Balthemeal followed the dagger (and Mat) to the eye, but the fact that they recognized it enough to know what it was in the first place.  For people who have been asleep for 3000 years, it stands to reason that this is not just something that happened along, but somethinng they dealt with in the war of power.  <br /><br />So, are you ready for the impossible theory you will all laugh at?  It wasnt the dagger they recognized, it was the evil of it, therfore the evil of Mordeth...but who was Mordeth? if this is true so far, that means that Mordeth himself was around during the War of Power. otherwise the forsaken wouldnt recognize him or his evil.<br />I propose that Mordeth is none other than our old friend Biedomon. yes, thats right, the guy who helped meirin (lanfear) drill a hole in the bore.  Who can say what happened, lanfear obviously survived, so it stands to reason that Beidomon could have lived too.  <br />with the Evil released and the War going on, LTT seals the bore, and the taint comes into play.  Many male Aes Sedia tried to hide from the madness.  some stopped channeling as long as they could, others hid in stedding.  I say Mordeth (even if he isnt Biedomon) tried to hide in T'A'R.  thinking to escape by traveling in the flesh to the world of dreams.  and because, as it has so often been said, time is different in the world of dreams (which explains how Olver can be Gaidal Cain) Mordeth could have stayed there for 1000 years, and emerged in the middle of the trolloc wars.  having a personal grudge against the shadow, after having seen it destroy the AoL, he used the shadows own methods against it, but succumbing to the taint, he himself went mad, and used his power to give himself life after death, in so doing he infused the very rock of arhidhol with his own personal evil.  thus preserving his life.<br />upon waking, the forsaken recognized that evil as something they had dealt with in the War.  Thats how they know the evil of the dagger, and how they recognize fain for what he is.


created: 2002-01-30 02:27:54
subject: <b>A crucial bit of information?</b>
body:
I think that you are all forgetting that what Aginor says is &quot;He led us&quot; pointing at Matt. &quot;An old object an old freind and an old enemy&quot; The only thing that led them was the strange sensation that makes darkfriends itch as it is described. I think saying that there is a connection between Mordeth and the forsaken is just wishful thinking without any evidence. The only evidence that we have would suggest so, in the sense that the two evils are described as separate but both evil. The evil of Aridhol is man made and that of the shadow is something more eternal in the form of the DO. It does sound good though,and it would explain how Mordeth was able to convince a whole city that they must become harder than the shadow, although I think you could chalk it up to mass hystery as well.


created: 2002-01-30 11:10:42
subject: <b>The Dagger Is the Key</b>
body:
I think that the only thing we can say with a level of certainty is that it is the dagger, not Mordeth, that seems to hold the key to everything.  Like the Ring in Tolkien's world, Mat was corrupted by it, and it took immense Aes Sedai efforts to remove its influence from him (yes, to remove its influence from a ta'veren - one of those sainted people who twists the Pattern to HIS wish).  Fain/Mordeth sensed where it was and travelled to Tar Valon to get it back because it made him &quot;whole&quot;.<br /><br />And of course, Aginor calls it old.  Aginor was from the Age of Legends; Aginor was sealed in the Bore for thousands upon thousands of years.  If he's calling it old, it must date to the Age of Legends, or perhaps it pre-dates the Age of Legends for him to call it old.  We can't say for sure, but I would argue that it pre-dates Mordeth, who came upon the dagger somewhere and fell under its evil influence.  <br /><br />It seems, however, that the evil of the dagger is an evil within the Pattern, as opposed to an evil from without set on destroying the Pattern.  This would explain why it does not seem to have any connection with the Dark One. Could it be that the power of the Creator is being turned against him?  Human hatred can be a very powerful force, and hatred and distrust are what killed Aridhol.<br /><br />Mordeth could then be seen more as a Satan-like figure; someone who was created by the Creator, someone who is lesser in power than the Creator but then rebels nonetheless in an attempt to wrest power from the Creator and control the Pattern for his own ends.  From the Dark One's point of view, he would still be part of that Pattern that needs to be destroyed and, to the extent that the Pattern Mordeth's trying to &quot;weave&quot; interferes with the Dark One's attempts to &quot;unweave&quot;, he may even be the current top priority.<br /><br />There have also been comments to the effect that Mordeth will become the new Dark One in the next age.  While I think he can't take the Dark One's place, he may be &quot;the new enemy&quot; of the Creator for the next age.  In this cycle, then, one would have the following ages repeat: 1) Dark One sealed properly with no evil (Age of Legends); 2) Dark One released and unleashed on the world; 3) Dark One sealed improperly (the Third Age); 4) Dark One re-sealed, with evil subordinate to the Creator (Fourth Age); 5) Dark One sealed properly with no evil (another Age of Legends), etc.<br /><br />This extra age would be necessary for people to forget the previous Age of Legends before it came around again.  It would also fit in well with traditional mythology from which Jordan draws, and, if he's planning on trying to mesh WoT with our world, he could say we're living in a Fourth Age reality...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 11:19:50
subject: <b>I Likes I likes</b>
body:
Nothing really to add here Just wanted to say that I like it is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 02:05:42
subject: <b>Age of Legends</b>
body:
If the Age of Legends was so stinkin perfect, then where was this evil dagger?  If it corrupts everything it's near, wouldn't there be some mention of it?  Some mention of something that wasn't perfect?  <br />     Birgitte describes the Aelfinn and Helfinn as being so different from the ways of light that they are reminiscent of evil.  Mat already got his weird spear thing from them, and even though it has no apparent taint, what if it does?  Maybe the &quot;evil&quot; of Aridhol wasn't evil, just what RJ said it was:  they were harder than the shadow, and created their own shadow.  Maybe Mordeth came from the Aelfinn or Helfinn (Mat described Mordeth as being a strange moving and looking person.)<br />     Another minor point is that Aridhol and the tower of Ghengi are not that far apart from each other.  No one knew where Mordeth came from.  Maybe his evil is that from another world, another pattern, perhaps not even evil at all where he comes from.<br />     Or perhaps Mordeth, Mashadar, and Shadar Logoth is what comes about at some really intense Daes Daemar.<br />     Just a thought, though.


created: 2002-02-05 13:53:09
subject: <b>&quot;Maybe Mordeth came from the Aelfinn or Helfinn&quot;</b>
body:
It's a good idea, I think. That theory would tie well too with Aginor's comment about old friend &amp; old enemy.<br />


created: 2002-02-09 08:45:59
subject: <b>Shaddar Logoth - Dagger - Tainted Ter'angreal</b>
body:
I believe that the dagger is a ter'angreal.  But a ter'angreal gone bad.  What else was created by the Power and then went bad?  The Ways.  Perhaps this dagger was created by male (and possibly female) Aes Sedia after the DO tainted Saidin.  The Ways were created after the taint by male and female Aes Sedia and they worked perfectly fine for a good long time, but slowly the taint on saidin that was used to create them resurfaced and began to corrupt the ways.  Now Macha-shin roams free there and kills seemingly everyone that comes in, even shadowspawn.  But for some reason, after Fain gets the dagger back, the ways seem to be blocked and can't be used by Rand ET all.  This happens at two different Way-gates that were tried.  Jordan makes a big deal out of it so I think that must mean it is critical.  Perhaps Fain's dagger has some power over them, because it was created and corrupted in the same fashion.<br /><br />As to what the dagger was originally made to do, I don't know but it was corrupted somehow.  How did it get to Aridhol?  Maybe Mordeth was a dark friend during the trolloc wars and for some reason he turned against the shadow (something like what happened to Padan Fain).  Maybe Mordeth was at Shayol Guhl and somehow happened upon the dagger or maybe the DO forced him to find it for him somehow.  Mordeth with his grudge against the DO decides to fight the shadow.  But at this point he has been corrupted by the dagger, but with the corruption comes some special power.  A power that makes people he infects very suspicious and untrusting.  There are references of Fain doing this to Pedron Nehal and Elaidia.  Mordeth uses this power to corrupt all of Aridhol and everyone becomes untrusting and hard, originally to defeat the shadow, but the taint begins to take everyone in the city and the mis-trust is so strong everything becomes tainted and then Mashadar begins to appear slowly and consume people as it did in the Ways.  Before long nothing remains except for Mordeth and his dagger.<br /><br />For some reason Mashadar or what ever enables Mordeth to have gohlam like powers and long long life prevents him from leaving Aridhol.  Morriane mentions in tEotW that people entered Shaddar Logoth and met Mordeth.  Mordeth would ask them to walk with him beyond the city walls.  If he succeeded, he would have been able to take over their body's, escape Shaddar Logoth and taint the world again.  Remember he tries to convince Rand, Mat and Perrin to help him move the loot from Shaddar Logoth outside to his pack horses.  I think after he failed to convience the boys, he happens upon Fain, who takes him beyond the walls and Mordeth tries to take over Fain's body and for some reason, maybe because of the things the DO did to Fain or maybe becuase he doesn't have his full power without the dagger Mat took, he is unable to fully take him over leaving the Mordeth/Fain creature we have running around.  <br /><br />This theory would explain how Aridhol would be able to feel &quot;an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot;.  An old Ter'Angreal that was created by Saidin, but corrupted by the taint.<br />


created: 2002-02-11 22:22:06
subject: <b>More Material</b>
body:
I am not very good at theories so I will leave the working out for the rest of you, however as I read FoH for the 5th time or so I found an interesting passage (p 327) conserning Fain's dagger, just as he finds it again in the White Tower. <br /><br />&quot;He sighted as soon as he tuched it ... one with what had bound him so long ago ago, one with what in a very real way had given him life.&quot; <br /><br />This would support a lot of theories on FainMordeth beeing a creation of his own or the resulting creation of a foulty ter'angreal.<br /><br />Well great work with the theories and I hope you can use the quote.


created: 2002-02-19 01:42:27
subject: <b>Referencing</b>
body:
I think the first comment by Aginor might be refering to the dagger (an old thing) but I believe the rest could possibly be a reference to Mat (an old friend, an old enemy).  If you look at what Ishamael is always telling Rand, that they have fought the same battles since time existed and they had been enemies at points and friends at others.  What if in a previous life Mat also fought side by side with dreadlords? and Aginor is just playing this up.  <br /><br />Or it could just be refering to the dagger, but it is an interesting thought none the less.


created: 2002-04-03 17:18:29
subject: <b>Tainted ter'angreal</b>
body:
I'm not saying I agree with the whole tainted ter'angreal thing, but if it is true, or something very like it, and it was the dagger that brought Aridhol to its knees just by being there, then what about the place it currently resides? Its just sitting there in the White Tower, what influence is it having on people and events there?


created: 2002-04-03 17:22:11
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
Ok, I guess its been too long since i read these books.  Scratch the part about the White Tower, but I still think that the dagger has more infection to do.


created: 2002-04-08 00:56:09
subject: <b>On the Aginor comment</b>
body:
When Aginor makes his comment &quot;an old object, an old friend, an old enemy&quot; I don't think he was directing it at Mat or the dagger.  I think he is directing it at the taint of Aridhol.<br /><br />The dagger is an old object and part of the madness that is Aridhol/Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />During the Trolloc Wars Aridhol's &quot;be as dark as the shadow&quot; attitude helped the shadow in a number of ways, including the destruction of Manetheren.  This would make the friend part.<br /><br />Also during the Trolloc Wars Mashadar killed an entire army of shadowspawn and shadowsworn, causing the shadow to lose an army and a vital staging point.  This would qualify the enemy part.<br /><br />Jordan's love of duality and paradox could be seen as evident in this, but there is still one problem.  Aginor says it is &quot;old&quot;, but he was trapped near the top of the seal which is why he aged.  Therefore he could've learned of these things during his imprisonment or as he came out of it.  I don't think the dagger is AoL or TerAngreal, but I do think that Fain has some correlation to one of Jordan's comment about &quot;persons with no souls&quot;.


created: 2002-06-24 19:15:20
subject: <b>very nice idea..</b>
body:
The only thing i want to add is about something that has been puzzling me since i first read tEotW. When they are in the treesure room with Mordeth, he (mordeth) suddenly sceams and squeezes through the crack in the wall. I couldnt work out why something that powerful would do this. But this coincides with mat picking up the dagger, therefore this implies that the dagger is some how related to mordeths power, be it a source or control, and why he is obsesed with getting it back. Oh yeah i dont recon that the mordeth that rand and the others met in arindol was a ghollam like creature, rather mordeths spirit, which went on to try to posses padan fain


created: 2002-07-02 05:29:24
subject: <b>Why dagger?</b>
body:
Out of curiosity, does it every say or even strong imply that the ruby hilted dagger is the source of Shadar's evil?<br />The true evil in Shadar seems to be the suspicion and hatred of its inhabitants that was propogated by Mordeth, and eventually manifested itself in three forms.<br />One form is Mashadar, the physical manifestation of the suspicion/hatred.<br />Another form is Mordeth, who being the propogater and the person with more suspicion/hatred, turned into something like Mashadar (hence why he turns into smoke).<br />The last form is an evil that permeates everything within the city.<br />Now nothing within the city can get out. The only way is if someone from the outside takes something out of the city. This is where the dagger comes in. While everything in the city may be evil, it is useless in affecting the outside world. The dagger however, was taken out of the city, and it is the only thing ever taken out of the city.<br />Now Mordeth hitches a rid on Fain and is able to escape the city. What can he do? He seeks the only other thing in the entire world that is like him, the ruby hilted dagger. Not because the dagger is a ter'angreal, or some uber magic item, but simple because the dagger is the only thing, other than Mordeth, to ever have escaped Shadar. Fain does that seek the dagger as much as the evil of the dagger.<br />As for Aginor calling it an 'old friend/old enemy' possibility is that since Aginor and Balthamael were partially trapped, or trapped near the very edge (hence why they aged) they were able to get news of the outside, and knew about the fall of Aridhol. Second is that Aginor somehow created the


created: 2002-08-30 03:32:40
subject: <b>No, no, no...</b>
body:
Some of these I definitely agree with.  HOWEVER, to say that the dagger is a ter'angreal is a HUGE leap.  If we all recall, Moiraine questioned our three ta'veren if they took anything from Mordeth when they met him and how it would be very bad if anything left the city.  <br /><br />My assertion is the dagger is just a piece of the city.  The very, very evil city.  Mordeth was always looking for people to carry the treasure outside the walls, because he, himself, could not.  Even Fain could not take anything since he became, essentially, Mordeth.  Mat took a dagger because it was a good looking piece of equipment, just as he might have taken some gold if a dagger weren't more attractive.  I say the gold would have been just as bad, even if it cut less.<br /><br />I think what people see in the dagger is Mordeth's evil transplanted from the city.  While Mordeth may or may not have been Aes Sedai (something tells me that's right on, by the way), I SERIOUSLY doubt it's a ter'angreal.  Fain wants it because it's a &quot;reminder of home&quot; and sort of a booster for his own evil.  The fact that it's a dagger is a plot device, if you ask me.<br /><br />Now, Mordeth disappearing as a <i>gholam</i> would...that's something for discussion... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Josh <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark,<br />and the great sword of justice defend us.<br />Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.<br />- from <i>Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-29 16:32:02
subject: <b>Dagger from another world</b>
body:
Ok maybe the SL Dagger wasn't made in the AOL, but it was found via the portal stones - hence the Forsaken knowing about and recognising it. I'm sure you can all imagine a multitude of ways to explain it's existence in general and Randland in particaular (moved to that world via Ghenji for example).<br /><br />As to Aginor creating Mashadar... we all know he was a genetic tinkerer, but Mashadar seemed quite non-corporeal to me, quite unlike trollocs, draghkar etc.


created: 2004-06-15 13:10:08
subject: <b>Phbbbtttt!</b>
body:
You're all bloody ridiculous. (Except Asha'man Josh - i too was intrigued by Mordeth disappearing like the gholam)<br />You really don't think that Moiraine would not have felt the resonance that accompanies channelling near a ter'angreal? If it it was a male one, that Rand wouldn't have felt it? What if Someshtu was standing behind Mat when Aginor pointed at him? He would qualify as a old friend/enemy, as Aginor would have had a hand in creating the Nym. What if there was a similar fallen city during the War of Power, that succumbed to its own hatred of the shadow? Maybe Aginor recognized that feeling, knew what it was about the dagger that made the Darkfriends &quot;itch&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-15 13:12:49
subject: <b>Except...</b>
body:
I highly doubt that a gholam would have a soul to merge with Fain's, so the possible theory that Mordeth is a renegade gholam is out. But, if he was from the AoL, which he's not, his geing a gholam would explain how he survived. I think they could survive even without a stasis box, given enough blood.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-29 15:22:58
subject: <b>?_?</b>
body:
Okay. Look.<br /><br />The fact that the dagger helped Aginor and Balthamel track the fellowship(=p) is easily explaind away by Moiraine's comments in EoTW, where she says it attracts shadowspawn, or those deep enough in the shadow.<br /><br />Aginor calls it and old friend because Shadar Logoth aided the shadow, and an old enemy because as Aridhol, it was a powerful city of the light. It's really no more complicated than that, none of your 'Aginor created Mashadar' rubbish.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-16 16:46:23
subject: <b>I have to disagree.....</b>
body:
I have been re-reading the series, and it seems to me that any piece of the treasure that was removed would have had the same affects that the Dagger wrought on Mat. I could have just as easily as been a coin, the ax that Perrin picked up, or any other trinket that was lying around. ANYTHING taken from Mordeth would carry his taint, so the Dagger could not have been predestined to wreak havoc, and then planted in Aridhol for that purpose.


created: 2002-01-30 01:02:36
subject: <b>I concur</b>
body:
With is an astounding theory. I'm absolutely just amazed at the finesse the author took to create such a spell binding and awe-inspiring peace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 01:05:37
subject: <b>Muffins?</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Nice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~I know everything, it is just that sometimes I can't completely remember some things.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 02:46:18
subject:
<b>*eats all the muffins*<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
There is no Cosmic Muffin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now there is no WoT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 05:23:34
subject: <b>This just brilliant.</b>
body:
Who ever would thought that the Creator and the Dark One were actually Muffins <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I just stand in awe of the originality of this theory. A great laugh.<br /><br />Avi, that was bad eating the Muffins and killing off WOT. You've just destroyed my life <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 10:08:18
subject: <b>*Makes some new Creators and Dark Ones*</b>
body:
Here ya go, Simon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~I know everything, it is just that sometimes I can't completely remember some things.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 10:38:36
subject: <b>New Mufins! Nooooo.....</b>
body:
Not new Muffins! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> You've just recreated the Dark One, but now he's not old and stale. He's fluffy and delicious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Great, you've just doomed the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 11:25:55
subject: <b>Quite Logical When You Think About It</b>
body:
I was always wondering how the Dark One managed to survive in a box on a forgotten shelf outside of the Pattern for millions of years.  But when you think about him as being a muffin, you realize that the additives and preservatives that have been mixed in will keep him at least half-fresh for another few million years at the very least.  Although honestly, I had always pictured him as more of a snack cake than a muffin, perhaps something like a Ho-Ho or a Ding-Dong, made with enriched flour, sorbitol, corn syrup, dextrose, sodium benzoate and a creamy filling made with partially hydrogenated milk, cocoa powder and sucrose.<br /><br />The Creator, then would be more like a Twinkie.  He's big and golden, with a rich, creamy filling, but he has a different set of artificial flavorings and colorings and not quite so much sodium benzoate.  Some people like to picture him as having a face, arms and legs and a big cowboy hat, but in actuality he's just a large yellow snack cake sitting on a piece of cardboard in plastic wrap.  We have re-made him in our own image, have we not?  For if the Twinkie did not exist, man would have to have baked him anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 16:22:27
subject: <b>So...</b>
body:
Does that mean the catchy tune used by Darkfriends to identify eachother is:<br /><br />Do you know the muffin man,<br />The muffin man,<br />The muffin man,<br />Oh, do you know the muffin man,<br />Who lives in Shayol Ghul?<br /><br />Very nice.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 16:29:23
subject: <b>Right food--wrong ingredients</b>
body:
NO NO NO! The Dark One is a BRAN muffin! All the fiber makes him VERY regular, and it all has to go somewhere: hence-the taint on Saidin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mossman<br /><br />Wielder of the Fungus of Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />Offical Stalker of Spettio <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br />Green Gaidin Approved.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thumbsup.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/39jz55" target="_blank">The Silver Serpent</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 17:09:57
subject: <b>Foods</b>
body:
Did anyone read RJ's most recent interview?  The one where someone asked him how he got his inspiration for WoT.  &quot;Actually,&quot; he said,&quot;I was eating a Charleston Chew candy bar and one of my teeth fell out.  I got to thinking that inherent in the foods we eat are varying properties of good and evil.  A macrocosm within the microcosm, shall we say.  It was just so blindingly obvious, I couldn't believe no one had ever realized it.&quot;<br />        RJ later went on to state what characters in his series corresponded to what foods:<br />       1.  Rand- Harriet's Baked beans- he gives you some sutainance and flavor-  but he leaves you with terrible gas<br />       2.  Perrin- kind of like a salad- good, but always leaves you waiting for the main course<br />       3.  Mat- like a big chocolate cake- sweet and enticing, but not entirely good for you<br />       4.  Elayne- tofu- a different kind of protein that builds and strengthens and good on the heart<br />       5.  Faile- brussel sprouts- REALLY annoying<br />       6.  Nynaeve- wormwood tea- horribly bitter to the taste, but with some medicinal effect<br />       7.  Demandred- kind of like a pizza that got lost on delivery- you never know quite who he is or when it is going to arrive.  But it makes your mouth water<br />       8.  Lan- kind of like a jawbreaker candy, tasty but hard on the mouth<br />       9.  Sevanna- like your grandmother's fruitcake- something you have to accept, but never quite want.  How many times is she going to be fought before she finally dies anyway?<br />       10.  A'rangar, O'sangar, kind of like leftovers- rehashed chow that needs to get eaten quick.<br />       11.  Min- is like pasta.  Something that is tasty and sustaining- that can be eaten time and time again.<br />       12.  Padan Fain- kind of like uncooked shell fish that can you bad food poisoning<br />       13.  Aviendha- Like a tamale-  You have to take off the nasty paper surface, but it tastes good on the inside.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 03:34:55
subject: <b>you say so..</b>
body:
it is really hard for me to visualize the dark one as food.  i love FOOD!  no i am not this huge guy but i love food.  so can he be like stale dog food instead i havent eaten that since kindergarten?? so how 'bout?  can he please be dog food?  huh?  can he??  pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese?<br /><br />raistlin dourden<br />archmage darkelf <br />master of time


created: 2002-01-31 16:30:53
subject: <b>How could I have missed this!</b>
body:
Muffins! Of course! There is now no need to read the rest of the books. I know how it will all come together now.<br /><br />Muffins... brilliant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society.&quot; ~Mark Twain<br /><br />&quot;No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.&quot; ~Aristotle</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 19:30:09
subject: <b>HHAAAAAAA! HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA!</b>
body:
&quot;Do you know the muffin man,<br />The muffin man,<br />The muffin man,<br />Oh, do you know the muffin man,<br />Who lives in Shayol Ghul?&quot;<br /><br />HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY FAVORITE SONG EVER! *Balefires KK*<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 11:23:31
subject: <b>Wow 46% against</b>
body:
The fact that that many people said no shows me that too many people take things too seriously round these parts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 13:09:50
subject: <b>Muffins of the</b>
body:
<br />  Some more insight.<br /><br />  Now the part about boring a hole makes sense. Since the dark one is a very very stale muffin( XX( ). The only way to eat him would be from the inside out. Which means the Rand has to drill into the dark one. <br /><br />  Also if the dark one and creator are muffins would that make everyone in Randland cupcakes?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 22:26:56
subject: <b>It's bagels, people. Bagels.</b>
body:
You're in the right section of the bakery, but you have the wrong baked good.  Clearly the dark one is a bagel.  Bagels have holes.  The dark one's prison has a hole.  But it can never be refilled.  Bagels aren't like donuts.  You see, Munchkins come from donuts (oh yes they do too!) They are the useful byproduct of donuts.  Bagels have no such equivalent.  A bagel Munchkin, if you will, would be far too tough to be enjoyed in the casual manner of donut Munchkins.  But this is all moot.  Bagels are made without hole pluggers from the start.  The hole is inherent to its nature. Thus Ishamael's theory of how this war has been going on forever is proved correct, as is Rand's or somebody's discarded thoery that the creator made the DO's prison with a hole already built into it.  It's a bagel.  Always has been, always will be.  You can shove some kind of baked dough into the hole, and it may be stopped up for a while.  But it that doesn't make it a single, solid baked good.  It remains a bagel with a foreign object lodged in its hole. In time, someone will drill it out of there with nothing but good intentions and things will be back to normal, thus requiring the wheel to spin out LTT again to plug it up... you see what I'm saying.  But I have to say, www.muffinfilms.com does make a pretty convincing case for the muffin theory.  I'm still working on deconstructing it.  More to come...<br /><br /><br />with love,<br />Eric, the inkeeper whose girth strains his apron<br />&quot;May you shelter in the oven of the Creator's corner bakery&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eric, the inkeeper whose girth strains his apron</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 21:45:21
subject: <b>Eric thanks for the link</b>
body:
Muffin films are cool hee hee.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 22:55:07
subject: <b>About the bagels...</b>
body:
But wouldn't that just make the Creator a custard-filled doughnut if the Dark One was a bagel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 01:10:29
subject: <b>Baked goods...</b>
body:
...brilliant! I can't believe I didn't realize it before. But I think, personally, that if the Dark One is a bagel, then the Creator would be a *glazed* donut. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Out of my mind, back in 5 minutes.<br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 17:30:14
subject: <b>Stuff</b>
body:
No, a custard filled doughnut, not a glazed one, because a custard-filled doughnut has no hole and is thus fulfilled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 00:38:05
subject: <b>Donuts...</b>
body:
I get it! I think. So... according to yourtheory, a custard-filled donut is fulfilled, and a bagel is empty, because it has a hole in the middle? Makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Out of my mind, back in 5 minutes.<br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 11:22:27
subject: <b>The One Power</b>
body:
So, how does the One Power fit into this?  <br />I have a theory:<br /><br />While you all argue about the Creator and DO; bagel or donut; twinky or ho ho...I have found the material that is the One Power: the cream filling.<br /><br />Saidar is the light fluffy cream in the twinky, ho-ho, swiss rounds, and many other little debbie snacks.  It is white, fluffy, light, and you can never have enough.  No matter who or what it is in, its very tasty.  The conduits for this fluffy filling are light pastries.<br /><br />Saidin is the cream in the donuts, bavarian/chocolate depending (chocolate fits this theory better, its dark....)<br />It is heavy, if it sits in the donut too long, it seeps through and taints your hands, the box, and you end up using too many napkins.  Oh, its tasty, but after a few bites, you are messy, and you can get a stomach ache if you eat too much.  Donuts are the only material that can hold this awesome, devistating power.<br /><br />However, i enjoy them both...does that make me a hermaphroditic channeler? <br />hmm...what about the True Power....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your humble servant,<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> AshaDom<br /><br />I'm not wierd<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br />just bored!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 23:50:58
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
You know, AshaDom, this makes sense to me! I prefer light, fluffy cream filling to chocolate filling, and I am female... although that doesn't answer your hermaphroditic channeler question...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Not only am I perfect, I'm <font color="red">Canadian!</font><br /><br />&quot;Lock and load, brides of Christ!&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 01:08:48
subject: <b>ooh... (Alrae, the normally compsed Tairen noble, stares in awe)</b>
body:
Mind boggling. Absolutely mind boggling. Just one question: who bit the Dark One and pulled off the seeds (etc.)?<br />feel free to send me a note with your answer!<br />Alrae <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="goldenrod">Lady Alrae of House Carillon</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="maroon">Snooty Tairen Noble Extraordinaire</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /> AKA <b><font color="red">Paine</font></b> <img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><b>I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All Hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-01 17:51:42
subject: <b>Boggled</b>
body:
Is anyone else as confused as I am?  My highly organized mind cannot hold with the incredible image that the speech of a . . . Have we decided which baked good it is?  Causing ecstasy with the sound of his voice.  In other words, I THINK THIS IS A POINTLESS DISCUSSION! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Now, on the other hand, I heard that the Second Law of Thermodynamics disproves evolution.  Isn't that far more fascinating?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 07:05:55
subject:
<b>MUFFINS!!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
This theory is a stroke of pure genius! It makes sense now, no one likes the creater because 1.) He's stale 2.) Somebody's already eate half of him (eww) 3.) All the good stuff is gone. It's like taking all the marshmallows out of luck charms, no one wants to eat it! (Unless there's an incentive, hence the Forsaken and darkfriends). All hail Roge_Trolloc!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> BirgitteSilverarrows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I don't suffer from insanity, I thoroughly enjoy every mintue of it! Bwaa ha ha!


created: 2003-04-27 23:48:16
subject: <b>MUFFINS</b>
body:
But if their both muffins who created them makes ya think! dont it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you lend  someone 20 bucks and never see them again it was worth it.<br /><br />penguins will come into storyline i just kno it<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 10:53:44
subject: <b>Mmmmmmmmmm.......................</b>
body:
I love to eat muffins mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I hope next time i eat a muffin it wont be the dark one since he seems not edible.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />TheGnome<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />I couldn't be bothered writing the rest of my titles<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-16 23:34:33
subject: <b>Mmmm...</b>
body:
*Licks crumbs off fingers*<br /><br />The Creator tasted better.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Erin, Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> ...but sometimes we can help it along...<br /><br />Aotearoa Forever! </b></font>


created: 2004-06-01 00:15:36
subject: <b>you missed something...</b>
body:
The thing you missed is that poppyseeds or whatever the hell they were dont go with chocolate chips! i myself always imagined the creator as the blueberry-lemon type. I do like you portrayal of the dark one as chocalte-chocolate chip. I thoutght of him as more the zuchini loaf type. With cashews, which i not only happen to hate, they also have e place whaever on muffins (and nither do sesameseeds)!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-21 19:29:31
subject: <b>fillings...</b>
body:
Hm...I like chocolate donuts better then the cream filled ones, and I'm a girl LOL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 14:38:58
subject: <b>Well thought out</b>
body:
This theory is very well thought out and answers a number of questions better than most other thories out their (why the seal doesn't work well, chaneling).  The only thing that I can find wrong with this is that the Forsaken have the same preconceved notions as the current Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 15:10:27
subject: <b>LTT</b>
body:
states several times in Rands head that &quot;we set our own limits and we set them higher then we have a right to&quot;.  I think that fits with your theory quite nicely.<br />


created: 2002-01-31 18:08:26
subject: <b>The forsaken and AOL AS had limits also</b>
body:
when nyeneve healed Logain, suain, and leane, mohegdien was just as suprised as every else.  the thought of healing the dead was impossible, healing madness was impossible, and healing stilling(gentling) was impossible.  Your thought of need makes sense but your notions of modern AS being limited on their acheivements simply becuase their minds say they can't is not quite right.  The little train that could just doesn't fit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When life gets juicy, squeeze it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />**CHOCO BLISS**<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 19:15:25
subject: <b>BRAVO!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Well that was long....but it made good sense! And it explains a lot of stuff!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 20:34:18
subject: <b>to &quot;the philosopher&quot; and &quot;Telvin&quot;</b>
body:
While the limitation side of my argument is the weakest, I will have to defend one small point.  People in the AOL thought that healing a severed channeler was impossible, and therefore didn't even try.  If I remember correctly, Moggy criticized Nynaeve's attempts to discover this healing, saying that she was wasting her time.  So, it is quite possible that with this pre-conceived block, nobody in the AOL attempted such things that were deemed impossible. While Telvin is right in saying that many of the pre-conceived notions that the Aes Sedai have are also shared by the Forsaken, I think this brings up another interesting point.  Why are the &quot;doers&quot; in this series all untrained and young?  Because young people share a common trait: they think that anything is possible and haven't yet learned otherwise.  And, to be honest, I used the premise of mental blocks and limitation to help explain the wonders that the &quot;primitives&quot; in the series were able to do, and got a little side tracked talking about the Aes Sedai being weaker, etc.  I used it to set precedent.  The main point I wanted to make concerns need as a &quot;barrier breaker&quot;, making &quot;faith and hope&quot; the keys to the last battle.<br /><br />Dedric, the philosopher


created: 2002-02-01 08:33:35
subject: <b>This</b>
body:
is the alternate theory? This is what I've always believed...what's the other theory for why Aes Sedai have lost their knowledge?<br /><br />Obviously I agree with your theory as I've always thought this, but some things we might see as people channeling without thought when they need to and therefore doing things they shouldn't be able to may well be due to past memories through the taint (onyl applies to men of course).<br /><br />Oh and while you present another reason for why Ishamael didn't want Rand killed, I think it's more likely that he has figured out (as he's a philospher) that the pattern simply won't let Rand be killed, that it will take the DO to beat the pattern.


created: 2002-02-01 10:12:22
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
Other interesting things is when Nynaeve uses balefire for the first time (in The Dragon Reborn somewhere), although she remembers how she did it, she had no clue WTF she was doing.<br />Also a nice picture of the mental blocks you mentioned is when Eleida muses about things like the impossibility of throwing firebals withouth some sort of throwing motion (highligted by aviendha flinging fireballs around like there was no tomorrow in the chapter before).<br />Or even better when Moridin whatched aviendha unravel the gateway and feels shocked, cuz that was clearly IMPOSSIBLE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 10:32:28
subject: <b>Pretty nice!</b>
body:
I agree with most of this theory, but I have one ?. If the AS block is only mental would you also be indicating that anyone else can chann. Like Tam al'Thor is told by Ishy that his dear son has a mental block and is his reason for not being super powerful without a silly statue. Then Tam says well then if its only mental. Next thing we know the whole book is channeling. Other then that I agree with it.<br />


created: 2002-02-01 11:47:05
subject: <b>Very nice theory Dedric</b>
body:
I pretty much agree wholeheartedly. I don't often say that about a theory. The things I really liked were A)The idea that Faith and Hope versus Doubt and Despair is the true battle rather than order and chaos and B) Rands Children being his impetus for saving the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 12:12:17
subject: <b>A for effort</b>
body:
Nice theory.  It was well thought out and well argued.  However, it seems to me that it hinges on the idea that you can do anything if you put you mind to it.  <br /><br />In real life, there are cases where an imagined barrier prevents a person from reaching their potential.  But there are also cases where there are hard and fast limits.  For example, you can't go faster than the speed of light; water boils at 100 deg C at 1atm. of pressure; overall, the entropy of the universe is increasing; etc etc etc.  Of course these are all physical limitations.<br /><br />This also applies to human psychological limitations.  Some people have a severly limited capacity for generating rational thought; you can't re-grow a leg that was amputated; as a man I can't give birth; etc etc etc.  Now no matter if i truely believe that I could concieve and give birth, it ain't happening.<br /><br />Instead, I suggest the old AA saying: &quot;Give me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, and give me the willpower to change the things that I cannot accept&quot; (paraphrase).  This is a much better summary that covers both mental and true physical barriers.<br /><br />Pardon the protracted verbiage<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 15:04:03
subject: <b>Wahoo!</b>
body:
Obviously, there are things that are constants, but not nearly so many as we believe. What the theorist is trying to get at here is not that ANYTHING is possible if you believe, but that you will accomplish ALOT more if you believe anything is possible than you would if you cruised through life with preconcieved notions about all aspects of life.<br /><br />I have always believed that anything was possible with the one power. The reason that wilders are often stronger is that they do things without thinking, and therefore perfrom these actions in the best way. For instance, Elayne's notion of cleaning a shirt with the One Power at the end of tFoH is to swirl it around in the water as fast as she can make it go. This demonstrates her primitive views on things. In the AoL, the Aes Sedai most likely knew more about science than we do today. They would have looked at the shirt and seen the elements/atoms that made it up and realized that the dirt was elements other than those the shirt consisted of that had clung to the shirt and would have spun a weave to seperate the shirt from the dirt. Remember that with the power, channelers can see 'all the tiny bits that things are made up of.' This is the reason why things aren't way more 'high-tech' than they are. The channelers in this age (and to a lesser degree in the AoL as well) couldn't think out of the box. They want to kill someone, so they think of something that they have some experience with, fire, and throw a ball of fire at them. They don't know much about 'science', and so when they puzzle out how to do something, it's always in a crappier way than it could be.<br /><br />Speaking of everything being possible with the power, here is how to fly with the One Power, which could easliy be figured out with the most elementary knowledge of flight dynamics:<br /><br />Create a vacumm, or an area of extremely low pressure above you! Duh!<br /><br />And about the theory, it was AWESOME! I have always thought the same. I must admit however, I laughed when I camd to the Vader part. It just seemed a little incongruous, but the theory is sound.


created: 2002-02-01 19:47:53
subject: <b>Another Good Theory</b>
body:
Herid Fels' &quot;Clear the Rubble in Order to Rebuild&quot; has to do with the Taint. But &quot;Belief and Order Give Strength&quot; is to do with your theory.<br /><br />Please look into the Amayar Way which states that &quot;Life is an Illusion - a reflection our beliefs&quot; from the start of TPOD. I would like to see your theory on what the &quot;End of Illusions&quot; means.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-02-02 06:27:05
subject: <b>So obvious</b>
body:
when you see it all laid out like this. Take Rand's clensing of the taint, the Chosen thought it may be possible, but doubted that Rand could figure it out. Nobody else thought he could do it, but he knew he could. And he did. And what was the taint anyway, maybe the 100 Companions went mad because of what they had to do, and the rest of the men believed there was a taint. And so there was.<br /><br />And in response to somebody above, you missed the point. Pure mental power may not be able to make a man fall pregnant or grow a new limb, but channel that mental strength into technological research, and bingo, our scientists are within a couple of decades of making such things happen. Because they believe they can do it and the human body is capable of doing it if triggered in the right way.<br /><br />Congratulations on a powerful theory. (Now, if we can find one for this Universe :-)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 16:20:18
subject: <b>Superb</b>
body:
A very well written and thought out theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 16:49:30
subject: <b>Brilliant</b>
body:
Sweet. I reckon you've sussed another major part of what the book is &quot;about&quot; (although I hate to burden good fantasy with a meaning). This goes right up alongside the gender issue and the &quot;what it's like to be tapped on the shoulder and told your the saviour of the world&quot; theme, and the bittersweet &quot;every silver lining has a cloud&quot; idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 23:00:16
subject:
<b>What about that (accepted?) who believed she'd rediscovered flight and jumped from the Tower?</b>

body:
I have always been of the opinion that those with the spark inborn are stronger in the power than those who need to be taught.<br />A point in favour of the theory: Those stronger in the Power tend also to be stronger willed, though whether this is cause or effect depends on this theory's truth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 19:03:46
subject: <b>Uhhh....</b>
body:
I agree, Rand definitely needs to give Ishy a hug.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 22:33:05
subject: <b>be careful where this goes</b>
body:
The theory is very nice and all, but it does bring up the dangerous question of the consensus.  For those of you not familiar, this is that reality asserts itself based on the belief of everyone.  This gets really complicated considering the number of completely delusional male channelers there must have been over the years.  If you didn't understand that, just skip it and go on with your life, it isn't a topic that really needed to be brought up and shouldn't be beaten to death.


created: 2002-02-22 04:14:56
subject: <b>very nice</b>
body:
I'm liking this theory. I can't really add anything new, but I wanted to voice my approval <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-27 14:05:10
subject: <b>Faster than c. How 'bout c+1?</b>
body:
First I would like to say that this theory is probably the greatest yet involving the OP. I have always been under the belief that anything is possible with the right tools. What better tool to accomplish any goal than the OP?<br /><br />To AOBtD:<br /><br />I have two questions first off:<br /><br />1-What if I put water in a styrofoam cup and microwave it to 100 degrees celsius, and lets assume we're at 1 atmosphere of pressure?<br /> The water does not boil. There must be imperfections in the container for the gasses to form around in order for the water to boil.<br /><br />2-Why can't you regrow an amputated limb?<br />We can't regrow limbs right now because we don't have the right tools at our disposal. What if we had the OP in our toolbox? Aes Sedai are able to heal anything except death, anything!<br /><br />I think that you have mixed up impossible with improbable. Let's look at Real life for a sec and the history of science.<br /><br />Centuries ago, men would have said it was impossible to have a man-made source of light without the use of fire. And yet, we now have electric lights all over the world.<br /><br />Decades ago, men would have said it was imposible to fly. And yet, we now have planes, jets, helicopters...<br /><br />Today, we believe that you can not travel faster than light...<br />Just because we haven't accomplished a goal, is it really impossible?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> I am The Dragon Reborn...<br /><br />...................Reborn............<br />........Reborn................<br />.................................Reborn...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I hate it when it does that!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Damn Wheel!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-26 22:40:30
subject: <b>silly f00l!!</b>
body:
there is such a thing as faster then light travel, silly, it's travveling at the speed of dark, because dark always get;s there first and is fast enough to get out of light's way! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;rant&gt; Canadian and proud of it! &lt;/rant&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 05:20:08
subject: <b>I don't think that's it.</b>
body:
I think there are three reasons why the Aes Sedai are weaker now than in the Age of Legends.  1. Through the breaking and over long time, they've forgotten many things.  2. The Pattern knew they didn't need to be super-powerful until the end, that's why there's a sudden spate of very powerful women in this generation (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha AND various Sea-Folk and Kinswomen ALL of whom have more potential with the power than any Aes Sedai for the past _1000 years_).  3. The Aes Sedai have been trying to do everything with one sex only.  Male and Female, their complex quarreling-loving balance, the way they fill each other's gaps (like saidar and saidin writhing around each other, following each other's contours so that a man can &quot;see&quot; saidar by seeing where saidin bends), is a very fundamental theme in Jordan.  The very One Power _itself_ is divided that way.  I think the all-female Aes Sedai have been depriving themselves of a great deal of power over the years since the Breaking by not working with men ever, and I don't just mean by not being able to link in groups larger than 13.  For either half of the One Power to work to its fullest potential, it has to be supported somehow by the other half.<br /><br />As for your specific examples:<br /><br />&quot;1. Aviendha's subconscious rendering of a gateway to get away from Rand. He appeared when she was naked, which instigated an extreme, emotional reaction from Aviendha and she fled. How did she flee? She reached for the power and made it happen.&quot;<br /><br />Aviendha can't be the first Aes Sedai in thousands of years to be in a situation where she NEEDED to travel.  One that was, say, trapped by Trollocs in an alley would have a much more compelling need than Aviendha did.  If simple need did it, it would have happened a lot, and someone would have remembered the weave.  Aviendha discovered it because this is the Pattern's purpose for the crop of very-powerful women in this generation: to bring back the glory days (Nynaeve figures out how to heal stilling, Egwene figures out Traveling, Elayne figures out the making of Ter Angreal, Aviendha almost figures out Traveling first, but can't remember the weave).<br /><br />&quot;2. Rand rescued his Keri, his quasi-mother from Ishamael. How? He just made it happen because the alternative was unthinkable for him.&quot;<br /><br />Nothing he did at the end of Eye of the World sprang from knowledge, because he didn't know anything.  Killing Aginor, wiping out the Trolloc army in the pass, besting Baal'Zamon--all that was just as instinctive as saving Keri.  I think that (and many things since) was just his inborn Dragonness--his remembrance of the past.<br /><br />&quot;3. Nynaeve healing Logain and Flinn healing the Aes Sedai. Both refused to believe that something could not be done, taking away their mental limitation. Combine that with a frustration on societal limitations, people telling you that you can't do something, and it happens. (Also, remember that Nynaeve uses all 5 subsections of the power to heal, as opposed to just a few like the yellows. She just thinks it &quot;feels right&quot; to do this, and we can assume that Flinn does the same thing. In other words, she just uses the power as a whole to accomplish something that she sincerely believes she can do.)&quot;<br /><br />You're confusing two causes.  She succeeded because she used all 5 powers, not because she refused to accept limitations.  Of course, her determination is what LED her to eventually try all 5 powers, but that's an indirect relationship that we're all familiar with from normal psychology: try, try again; the value of not giving up.  It doesn't mean her need or her confidence directly made the magic work.  If she had used just 2 powers, all the confidence in the world wouldn't have sufficed.<br /><br />&quot;4. Rand acting with any of the sa'angreal. He just does things because he feels he can, and doesn't accept the possibility of failure.&quot;<br /><br />That's because he has such a monstrous amount of the Power flowing through him that he knows it's equal to any task.  Well, any task with the Choedan Kal.  Remember, he failed to raise the dead with Callandor--not enough power.  The confidence comes from the quantity of power present, not vice-versa.<br /><br />&quot;5. Aviendha's undoing a weave. Aes Sedai thought it was impossible so they couldn't do it. Wise Women were never taught it was impossible, so they discovered it.&quot;<br /><br />Not impossible, just way too dangerous to try.  Again, that's a matter of meticulous training and will power, nothing to do with belief in possibility except indirectly.<br /><br />&quot;6. Nynaeve channeling in the ter'angreal when being raised to accepted. She did something thought impossible because she was emotionally involved, and she doesn't believe anything to be impossible (she has been quoted quite a few times saying that the Power should have no limitations).&quot;<br /><br />I'm sure _everyone_ taking those tests was just as emotionally involved.  That seems to be the whole point of the tests.  Also, they didn't tell her in advance that channeling wouldn't be possible inside, so why should we think they tell that to anyone?  All the women taking those tests would assume from the start that they _can_ channel, so they would all share Nynaeve's confidence until learning otherwise.  There must be another reason, something connected to Nynaeve's spectacular power and importance to the Pattern.<br /><br />Interesting theory, but I don't think it works the way you say.<br /><br />Florian


created: 2002-04-20 15:21:03
subject: <b>Wow....great theory....</b>
body:
Like I said, wow!!  This is probably the best theory that I have yet read!  All of the sections so totally add up and <br />they are like so right!!  By the way, how long did it take you to even come up with all of that?!  It was awesome!<br />Good job on the whole thing


created: 2002-07-02 18:46:19
subject: <b>wow!!</b>
body:
this is the best teory  I've read on this site..!! nice job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--~~kule Klem~~--</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 18:50:16
subject: <b>Just</b>
body:
a quick response to #6 on Florian's response.  Most novices would have had years of training and were most likely told (or at least found out) that channeling was &quot;impossible&quot; during the test.  I believe that if one of them panicked and did channel they would end up dead because they believed that is what should happen.  Nyneave, not being &quot;educated&quot;, didn't believe this and thus was safe.<br /><br />


created: 2002-08-16 14:34:04
subject: <b>you may have part of the answer....</b>
body:
... when it comes to why current Aes Sedai are weaker than those in the AoL, but there may be something you are not considering.<br /><br />Current Aes Sedai make no effort to gain strength (in the power).  The Aes Sedai from the AoL experimented with the power and tried new things, which is something current Aes Sedai do not do.  Even the brown ahja, whos job it is to study, spend there time buried in books.  They don't experiment.  If the OP can be viewed like a muscle, it is one that current Aes Sedai are letting atrophy.<br /><br />Of course there is very little time to learn and grow when you spend all your time plotting and manipulating each other, and the world around you.  I really hate Aes Sedai.


created: 2002-09-16 06:36:53
subject: <b>Bull`s eye!</b>
body:
This is one of the best theories I have read here in a long time, perhaps the best ever. We all know how Jordan can surprise us, but this theory is so well put together I can`t see any holes in it. I especially liked your thoughts about Ishamael and why he is called the betrayer of hope. Ishamael is certainly one of the most interesting characters in the series. I have been wondering a while about him and more importantly, his philosophy. This surely explains a lot. (The only reason I didn`t wonder if you were not Jordan himself was the allegy to Star Wars). Again: Great Theory!


created: 2002-12-02 20:48:33
subject: <b>Is this theory right?</b>
body:
Yes.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Would you fight the Dark One for a Klondike Bar???<br /><br />I would . . .</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 05:28:49
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
I don't very often run across theories as to the deeper meaning of so-called &quot;escapist fiction,&quot; so this was a beautiful thing to me.<br /><br />I disagree with whoever up there posted that they hated to burden &quot;good fantasy&quot; with a meaning.<br />I personally think any truly great novel or series of novels (even escapist novels) has a grand, unified moral or critique... something that we're intended to learn. We may not know exactly what it is, but we come away from the really good books knowing that there was something that set it apart. Some part of our subconscious says, &quot;this was Great.&quot; (Do I sound like Samwise at the end of the Two Towers yet?)<br /><br />Things like this.<br /><br />I love this. I bookmarked it. I can't prove that it's right, but even if it's not, literature is all about interpretation.<br />I can't help but think there's some modern-day application here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">livejournal: /~asmodeyum<br />(visit me at www.onetallcat.com)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> that axe! those braids! i am smitten.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 12:39:29
subject: <b>no need for meaning</b>
body:
i think this is an excellent theory, but this comment is for 5th stage eriksson who said that books etc. shud have a meaning, a universal truth that holds for your own environment.<br />I absolutely disagree. The search for understanding is not the search for meaning. Our foolish human minds tell us that there must be some universal truths, some meanings to life and the universe. We think this because it is unacceptable to think that we are just the result of a chance chemical reaction creating dna. Life is just a collection of millions of partial theories (small theories that hold in certain conditions)<br />Life doesn't have universal meanings, so why shud books?<br /><br />ahran


created: 2003-03-08 17:05:58
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
If you're right about rationality being a detriment for all things, does this include the DO's prison? If Rand wants it badly enough, could be re-make the prison (rather than just re-sealing it)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-18 22:55:29
subject: <b>absolutley amazeing</b>
body:
Absolutly wonderful!  Along with star-wars you should look at the end of the matrix it fits with that theory as well.  I agree that all good books should have some deeper meaning about the human condition, even if that meaning is that there is no meaning aka existentialism and its literature.<br /><br />for the record I do think there are universial truths, simply because I can't concieve of a world or a universe without them and I trust that feeling to be right.  Good work!


created: 2002-02-02 07:12:05
subject: <b>The song</b>
body:
The tinker song is the song that was singed in AoL for making the crops grow, and now that are no more Nyms, the song wont be singed <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-02 18:35:51
subject: <b>What if.....</b>
body:
A tinker went into Rhuidean's arches? MAybe in the past he would hear the song?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 22:10:44
subject: <b>very nice</b>
body:
2 points to consider.   the knights Templar did not have &quot;the true cross&quot; they had a &quot;sliver of the true cross&quot;  but that amounts to the same thing.  and supoosedly they had, or in some ways, still have, the Arc of the Covenant.  but it has also been theorised that they dont have a single Arc, but have created many. (based on the fact that the biblical describition of the Arc is nothing other than a primitive energy conductor).  and placed at certain points on the world were there iare natural wells of static electricity, the Arc will become charged.<br /><br />Anyhow, i believe you are right for most of your theory, but instead of a complete downfall, the children of the light will be saved by Galad who strongly belives in the original teaching of Mantaler, the founder of the children of the light.  and he will bring them back to what they used to be. and being Rand's half brother, he will align the newly reformed children with the Dragon.


created: 2002-02-03 00:27:17
subject: <b>Good theory!</b>
body:
Makes sense, but if RJ is using them as a template, we can expect their story to be changed a bit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 10:21:48
subject: <b>I just...</b>
body:
...can&#180;t believe that the Children have any <i>ter&#180;angreal</i>. Remember they are things that have to do with the OP which is the source of all evil in the eyes of a WC.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 10:21:59
subject: <b>Knights Templar? Hmmm...</b>
body:
The Whitecloaks aren't exactly as noble as the Templar.  The Templar, although ruthless in some instances, also were figures of benevolence to many of the god-fearing Christian peons...the Whitecloaks haven't shown that level of concern.  About all they've done is &quot;bring the grace of the Light&quot;, after that they seem to care little for the actual people, to wrapped up in their own mission.  Also, they are full of themselves to a Inquisition level, whereas in days of yor the Templar were servants of the Church (although nowadays the Knights Templar are just as full of themselves as everyone else...but I suppose, being a legendary organization, it was bound to happen).<br /><br />&quot;We have authority where ever the Light is, and where it is not we bring it&quot; (that was the quote, to the best of my rememberance), the Whitecloaks do that...but after they bring the Light, they don't seem to do anything but push people around and look pretty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 15:13:47
subject: <b>An interesting theory but based on misleading evidence</b>
body:
The Knights Templar's purpose, what all of their rituals were designed to accomplish, was to take ignoble knights of Europe, the knights that didn't act very knightly, and make good knights of them.  Teach them faith, respect, etc.  The never entered the Crusades to reclaim the holy land.  They entered for two reasons.  To save holy relics from the ravages of war and to use the war, which rallied some of the most evil of knights, as a recruiting ground.<br /><br />They were not disliked because of their ruthlessness.  When they were prosecuted later, for being too TOLERANT according to the church, the stories of the knight's actions before joining were used as evidence against them.<br /><br />Another misconception is that most Knights Templar wore white and red.  Only single knights wore such a tabard.  Married knights, more common, wore brown or black with a red cross.<br /><br />That is my input.


created: 2002-02-04 10:35:08
subject: <b>They're Closer to Teutonic Knights</b>
body:
I said this before when the Whitecloaks were compared to the Klan, and I'll say it again.  The Knights Templar are not the better prototype to choose, if RJ did indeed take one knightly order as his prototype (which, coincidentally, I don't think he did anyway).  As has been mentioned above, they were subservient to the Church, they were considered to be one of the more noble orders of knights and were later persecuted for their tolerance of faith, and it didn't take the Church long to get rid of them once it decided to.  The trust that they had among everyone in their day is evidenced by the fact that they established a letter of credit system by which a merchant could give the Templars in, say, Rome, the equivalent of $500,000 and then travel to, say, Paris with a letter from the Rome Templars which he would submit to them and receive $500,000.  Knights that are feared and mistrusted cannot pull off an operation like that.<br /><br />As I said in my earlier response, the Teutonic knights are a much better organization to pick.  They broke free of Church control and began to serve the less than pious mercantile interests of the Hanseatic League, forcibly &quot;opening&quot; the League's eastern borders to its trading empire under a thinly-veiled pretext of crusading for Catholicism against the Eastern Christian (Orthodo<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> churches.  And as I mentioned earlier, anyone who has seen Eisenstein's &quot;Alexander Nevsky&quot; knows that the Teutonic knights were not adored for their efforts - to the Russians at least they're seen as the evil cultists who throw babies into bonfires, devoid of human feeling and fanatic in the belief that they are right, and that they have the right to commit atrocities in defense of their beliefs.<br /><br />On the contrary, the only people who didn't like the Templars were the religious authorities who saw their power as being threatened by the Templars.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 17:59:05
subject: <b>The thing the Templars were most known for is...</b>
body:
Banking. They set up the first large banking system and established financial instruments. The reason they were hated was because they set up such a huge collective wealth though no individual knight was allowed to have much personal wealth.<br /><br />In the end they were defeated because the King of France envied their power and began a smear campaign against them claiming they performed satanic rituals and were hoarding money privately (which was against their code). While the allegations were not true they were very successful in hobbling the trustworthiness of the Templars and discrediting them in the eyes of the public. When this happened the Templars were no longer reliable as a banking institution and no one complained when the kings began taking chunks of their wealth in the name of virtue. <br /><br />So...I don't see the connection between the Templars and the Whitecloaks...I think you've been reading too much Sir Walter Scott.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />Doesn't need titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 06:12:09
subject: <b>Thank you, Ciel, the Baerlon Maid</b>
body:
Good job, Ciel. You know your templar history. Great group to study, for sure. I've done my fair share, I'm a bit of a fan, actually.<br /><br />The hate for them was mostly from jealousy, because they were the richest in the world, pretty much, at that time. The were accoused of blasphemy, and worshiping Baphomet (sp..).<br /><br />Before being abolished, and hunted down, they were giving holy order, that is, they answered to no king, and only the pope (if that...). So many groups wanted their wealth, that when the King of France Dupped the Pope into betraying them, a lot of people wanted in (this was during the era of Two Popes, mind you). As the leader (at the time) of the Templar was about the be burnt, he said that the pope and king of France would die within a year (and they did).<br /><br />The Templar started out as the poorest of knights. Their symbol origionally (standard, rather) was two knights on one horse, becuase of how poor they were. They formed to protect pilgrimages to the holy land, for incredibly low cost, or free. This was pretty much unheard of, at the time. Eventually, they found loopholes in the Catholic rules system against banking, and set up what we still use today as the banking system. There's actually VERY LITTLE in common with the WhiteCloaks, who are pretty much a tainted (not in a Saidin/Saidar kinda way), and corrupt.<br /><br />Good intentions, maybe, but ultimatly, just another broken political power who uses muscle to get their way, and McCarthy-ism to get browbeat people into submission. Boo-Ya<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-25 10:38:31
subject: <b>Perhaps we don't have to be so literal?</b>
body:
First, a few historical facts/corrections, and their implications....<br /><br />- The Templars were in fact independent of any ruler, and even of the local bishops - both situations which caused some problems for them - but they did have to answer to the pope, so they weren't an wholly loose cannon (as the Children are).<br /><br />- The Templars were bankers, yes, but not for just anyone.  They were the bankers for all the rulers, nobles &amp; other important people.  So when Philip the Fair started going after them &amp; instituted his smear campain, they didn't go into decline because of a lack of what we might now call 'investor confidence' among the populace, but because all the other nobles decided that they wanted to turn against them and get a chunk of their land &amp; money too.  <br /><br />- The Knights (of whatever order) were not allowed to marry - they were, after all, monks.  This does make me wonder: have we ever heard of any of the Children being married?  We know that they do not necessarily live a celibate life (cf. Eamon Valda), but is there any indication as to their ideas of marriage?  <br /><br />- The white habit (originally plain; the cross was a slightly later addition) was adopted from the Cistercians, because St. Bernard of Clairvaux wrote a monastic rule for the Templars.  Married men could not be full knights, but were allowed to serve as 'serjeants' (light cavalry), who actually outnumbered the full knights by a good margin.  So yes, the white habit could possible be connected to the Whitecloaks.<br /><br />- The Knights were not suppressed during the Great Western Schism (when there were 2, and then later 3, popes).  They were suppressed in 1307 under Clement V; the Schism began in 1378.  Clement was one of the popes who lived at Avignon, though, most of whom were French and greatly influenced (perhaps controlled) by Philip the Fair and the other kings of France. The Schism resulted from this situation, but it was later.<br /><br />- The Templars did not ever claim to have the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, or the True Cross.  The latter was found by St. Helena (the Emperor Constantine's mother) over 700 years before the Templars were founded, and pieces of it are now scattered across the world.  Claims about the Templars having the other two are all later myth (sorry, no Templar survival/Holy Grail/Masonic New World Order conspiracy theories here).  Of course, historical fact &amp; the later legend don't necessarily have to correspond (as the current Templar legends show), so Mr. Jordan might have felt it okay to play it a bit fast &amp; loose with this one.  Still, I find it dubious that the Children would knowingly hang on to any power objects (unless they couldn't destroy them and wanted to keep them guarded, as the High Lords of Tear did), or have the Song of the Tinkers.<br /><br />All that being said, it seems to me quite obvious that the Children are modelled on the old Military Orders of the Church - not so much on the Templars specifically, but on them all in a more general sense, with a hefty dose of the nastier possibilities of the Inquisition.  True, they do not correspond exactly to the Templars (or Knights of Malta, or Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, or Teutonic Knights, or whoever you like) in every little detail, but the general character organization is there.  They are an independent (subordinate to no secular government) military organisation with a religious mission (perhaps &quot;religious&quot; is not the right word for the Children, but you get the point) - yes, they are not as 'noble' as the Templars, but the parallels are quite convincing in spite of that.  Let's just say they are a somewhat darker version of the Military Orders. However, I think that we might have to stop the parallels there - general similarities do not indicate that Jordan will have them trace the exact history of the Templars.  Just because something serves as the model for an aspect of WoT does not mean that *everything* about it has to be the same....<br /><br />Oh, a final note about &quot;ruthlessness&quot;: none of these orders were really any more brutal than anyone else of the period.  If we start quoting Arabic &amp; Turkish sources on the Templars, and Russian sources on the Teutonic Knights, then we may as well start quoting Spanish &amp; French sources on the Moors; they'll all say about the same thing (horrible massacres, baby slaughtering, cannibalism, sexual perversion, etc.).  It's mostly propaganda and distortion.  However, the important connection with the Children of the Light is the way that any such military-religious body can get, shall we say, twisted into doing things that might not really be all that nice.  Remember that there were also Spanish Orders (e.g., The Knights of Santiago di Compostela) who participated in the Reconquista of Spain (which was considered a Crusade, too) and, to a lesser extent, the subsequent Inquisitions; and that there were many French knights (though I don't think the Orders did) who participated in the Albigensian Crusade - which was not as bad as modern historians make it out to be, but was still not a very great moment in Church history.<br /><br />My apologies for being so verbose.  I hope you have found this informative.<br />


created: 2006-03-22 22:52:21
subject: <b>In Hoc Signo Vinces</b>
body:
Interesting theory and some interesting responses. I am familiar with the templars but I am more familiar with certain later groups associated with them. I suppose on a superficial level the Whitecloaks are much like the Order, but that is where the similairities end. The Templars have been both ridiculed and romanticized by historians, propagandists, and popular culture alike, and through this our very knowledge of them has been perverted. We must remember that though heresy was the charge laid against them, the driving force behind their fall was the greed and jealousy of the French monarchy, and the envy of a Pope. They very well may have worshiped Bophomut, but many of the other charges were absurd. Worshiping Bophomut may not technically even be heresy, depending on what Bophomut really IS, and there are several competing - and I might add intriguing - explanations out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honk if your Demandred... Please!&quot;<br /><br />Jak'O</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 02:49:20
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
It gives a very plausible explanation as to how Mat could have already fulfilled the Balance Scale dream. I like your reasoning that Mat going to check on Tesyln led to Tuon being kidknapped. This is difintely a major storyline and it could be the &quot;fate of world&quot; has already been decided . <br /><br />If Teslyn and Joline are the two Aes Sedai on the &quot;Balance Scales&quot; ? I've no reason to doubt that yet. Only further reading will prove if that's the case. But if they're, then this theory is very likely to be close to what is true. Very nice theory. I hope it ends being the case.<br /><br />Simon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-02 08:46:19
subject: <b>It's</b>
body:
so difficult to say. Nothing clearly indicates that Joline and Teslyn are the two Aes Sedai, but there's a good chance they are. I don't think we'll find out whether they are or not before the end of the series. Then we can look back and say they're they only possibility, or that there are other choices he made that could be it too.


created: 2002-02-02 13:43:45
subject: <b>Mat's eye and the balance scale</b>
body:
Your theory does not take the vision of 'Mat placing his left eye on a balance scale.'<br />       It seems to me that this event is highly related to the 2 Aes Sedai that Mat will have to weigh.<br />   If you bring this into your theory, I might consider it more seriously.     <br />    I think it would be a major let down if Mat has already balanced his 2 Aes Sedai (unless RJ really builds it up in the next book).<br />       There are just too many Aes Sedai that Mat could have 'weighed.'  Using your lines of logic, Mat had to weigh Elayne and Nynaeve in CoS.  He had to weigh which one he was going to protect.  This led to a sequence of him saving the world, cause Elayne's life was spared.  This kind of thing has happened too many times in WoT.  Just picking Teslyn/Joline doesn't really fit unless you can bring some more evidence.<br />          I think RJ will give us lots of clues when it actually DOES happen.<br />     Plus if you consider it, there are going to be many more Aes Sedai to pick from when the Black and White Towers are united.<br />       My personal pet theory is that Mat will have to choose between Rand/Tuon.<br /><br />           I appreciated your theory, and like new ideas, so thanks for that( I don't mean to be a totally hardass here)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 02:38:38
subject: <b>good theory but the wrong Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I like the basis of this theory but the two Aes Sedai Mat will have to choose between are Egwene and Elayne. From what I have read so far both are going to be in REAL trouble soon. Mat will have to choose between Egwene and Elayne. He will realize he can't help both. My opinion is that the correct choice is Egwene (He will need the Horn of Valere later.). <br /><br /><br />                          The Narg reborn


created: 2002-02-03 15:04:06
subject: <b>Since they are visions...</b>
body:
ANd need not always be taken literally, isn't it possible that the balance scale is referring to more than one instance?  That is will be a theme in his life?  The eye on the scale could refer to one of those instances.


created: 2002-02-04 18:27:59
subject: <b>Balance Scale - you have to chose</b>
body:
I don't understand where you guys get the idea that Joline and Teslyn is the right AS to fulfill the vision. For me &quot;balance scale&quot; means you have to chose one of them. You have to consider all options before making a choice. But you have to pick one of them. As we know he took both of the AS. So it wouldn't be a &quot;balance scale&quot;. It's more &quot;wrap it and pack it&quot; deal. :-)<br /><br />Also we have to consider the other vision, which is tight to the &quot;balance scale&quot;. It's &quot;losing an eye&quot; thing. These two AS are not nearly close to the &quot;eye&quot; stuff. <br /><br />I think that &quot;balance scale&quot; and &quot;an eye&quot; thing refer to something unbelievble big in the WOT. I won't be suprise if Mat will have to chose between White Tower and rebelions. I can imagine that RJ will create some kind of plot, which can lead to massacre of Elaida's girls. And knowing Mat (he always was protective to women, any women) he might consider to go against that plot (here Teslyn could take part, for example), which means he might go against Egweyne (perfect theme for &quot;balance scale&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />). That also could lead to (or be part of) the &quot;eye&quot; thing. <br /><br />I'm saying that my idea is true. I'm just saying that these visions about Mat should be part of something big, something unexpected, some huge twist in the series. And definetly not a minor thing like picking two stupid AS.<br />


created: 2002-02-05 18:54:35
subject: <b>Egwene on the scales</b>
body:
I'm afraid I must disagree with Egwene being one of the Aes Sedai on the scales. The vision of Mat balancing the scales with the two huge Aes Sedai was Egwene's. Therefore, it would make sense if she was in her own vision, and make no sense if she was not in it while it directly affected her. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Jaded Angel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 00:53:01
subject: <b>I am surprised at all the 'Yes' replies</b>
body:
This theory, for not having much to back it, has a surprising percentage of yes votes.<br />            I am especially surprised since the last theory about Teslyn and Joline being the fufillment of the scales was only given a 60% nod.<br />       Surprising.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


