# w_comment

created: 2004-01-04 11:27:02
subject: <b>I have this burning question...</b>
body:
How did Lanfear get out of Finnland if she didn't die? The doorway in <i>and</i> out was destroyed (if you believe that Moiraine's coming back, why was she not able to get out of Finnland too? presumably because the only way out was destroyed). Unless there was another way out of Finnland, Lanfear had to have died, then been reincarnated to get out.<br /><br />Frankly, I'm torn. The attention to detail and the nuances of Jordan's style impressed me. Setting aside the debate over Lanfear's death, I must agree. The key word &quot;<i>intuitive</i> brings the motive and proof together. <br /><br />A side thought: using the same methods of interpretation we have also the means of Asmo's demise, he distinctly mentions balefire before his death. Quickly and easily his body is disposed of.


created: 2004-01-04 15:43:25
subject: <b>Two quickies</b>
body:
<b>Etzel</b><br /><br />Your motive for Slayer (&quot;he's an assassin!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> is pretty weak. That doesn't mean that he would have gone after a Forsaken, for goodness sake.<br /><br />Someone above brought up a GREAT point that I missed (whoever you are, GREAT work!): how would Slayer know that Asmo was shielded? He would have gotten the info from the only person other than Rand who knew that he was shilded: Lanfear. BOOYAH! Lets see y'all swat THAT one down!<br /><br /><b>Fyatuk</b><br /><br />I think what Columbo was saying was that you are starting to resort to les than ideal tactics to try and prove that Lanfear didn't do it, and you're looking the worse for it. There are 50+ blackboard posts and a popular theory, all of which deals with the fact that the killer has to be intuitively obvious as of the end of FoH. Taim doesn't shown up until LoC, and neither does Bashere, so your temper tantrum stays as just that.<br /><br />You're an intelligent poster. Lets see some stuff that really counts. But you've got to be open to the fact that... yeah, Lanfear just may have done it. Open yourself up to that (surrender to Saidin) and this convo will go through the roof with great posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 16:30:30
subject: <b>First things first....</b>
body:
Fytuk I mixed you up with Jordanian, who hasn't responded to a post of mine.  Hope you can accept my apology.<br /><br />To Olcennbuie - As Cyndane she thinks &quot; since the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held&quot; which others have suggested that this allows for a return through the other door.  <br /><br />I missed Asmodean&quot;s thoughts of BALEFIRE!  The weapon!  RJ is sharp, he leaves all the clues in Hitchcock fashion.<br /><br />To the rest I will respond tomm. when I have more time.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 16:58:01
subject: <b>A good theory, Columbo, but</b>
body:
I have to go with Etzel`s latest theory about Slayer.    To me, it is obvious that Slayer is the DO`s hitman. It seems that Slayer was ordered by the DO to kill Asmodean, and has used Asmo`s soul to enhance Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />I originally thought that SH did the killing, because he needed to correct his &quot;weakness&quot; from being away from Shayol Ghul too long.<br /><br />Etzel`s theory convinced me [90%] that SH was not obvious.<br /><br />My biggest problem with your theory is the time line.<br /><br />BTW, Etzel:<br /><br />Birgitte told Perrin in T`a`R that Slayer is a &quot;new evil&quot;, not an &quot;old evil&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 17:14:33
subject: <b>Probably my last reply for the next three days...</b>
body:
To GG,<br /><br /><b> Your motive for Slayer (&quot;he's an assassin!&quot; ) is pretty weak. That doesn't mean that he would have gone after a Forsaken, for goodness sake. </b><br /><br />The motive is not that Slayer is an assassin and that he therefore kills everyone. <br /><br />But because he is an assassin the DO ordered him to kill Asmo. <br />Thus Slayer's motive for the murder was to fulfill the DO's order.<br />That's a good motive in my view.<br /><br /><b> Someone above brought up a GREAT point that I missed (whoever you are, GREAT work!): how would Slayer know that Asmo was shielded? He would have gotten the info from the only person other than Rand who knew that he was shilded: Lanfear. BOOYAH! Lets see y'all swat THAT one down! </b><br /><br />First of all, since I believe (and nothing else is written in the text) that Asmo was killed before he could use saidin it doesn't really matter. <br />Slayer was too quick for Asmo and knew that in any case.<br /><br />But it's likely that spies told the Shadow that Asmo apparently can't use the OP as a Forsaken should be able to (otherwise Asmo would try to flee or attack Rand).<br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> Birgitte told Perrin in T`a`R that Slayer is a &quot;new evil&quot;, not an &quot;old evil&quot;. </b><br /><br />I meant TSR, ch.28, pg.466, Birgitte tells Perrin: &quot;This Slayer is not old, archer, but his evil is ancient.&quot;


created: 2004-01-04 17:34:23
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
<b>Taim doesn't shown up until LoC, and neither does Bashere, so your temper tantrum stays as just that.</b><br /><br />Re-read tFoH.  First of all, Taim was introduced back in tGH or EotW, just no on screen.  Yes Taim doesn't show up on screen until LoC, but there is important information we have before then.  We know he is a male channeler.  We can assume he has a connection to the Shadow (BA claims to have had a plot to free him).  We know he was freed under unusual circumstances.  <br /><br />At the end of tFoH Bashere shows up and talks to Rand, telling him that he thinks Taim is in Caemlyn.  This is all about the time of Asmodean's death.<br /><br />Double check that, because I already have.<br /><br /><b>Lanfear just may have done it</b><br /><br />I will freely admit there is a chance.  I seriously doubt it.  As I said, Slayer, Sammael, Graendel, and Taim are all much more likely.  I don't give the Lanfear theory much credit because its is very very unlikely, but it is a possibility.<br /><br /><b>Columbo</b><br /><b>Hope you can accept my apology.</b><br /><br />No problem.  I'm sorry I went a little overboard on some previous posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 18:43:29
subject: <b>Hey....</b>
body:
Don't you think some of you guys are taking this a little bit too seriously. I mean there is no need to get so personal about ones opinon on Asmodean's killer. I appreciate everyones ideas and to be honest I have no idea who did it.<br /><br /> I really enjoy visiting this site and I think theorists like Colombo, GG, Etzel etc really contribute heaps and make the site what it is... but sometimes it seems you fill up these pages with arguements that go round and round. And it seems some of you don't take criticism very well. It's cool for people to disagree with you know. <br /><br />It's just frustrating to find discussions on theories dominated by the same people arguing around and around.<br /><br /> I think a lot of other WoTmaniacs might have a lot to contribute but get shot down everytime they disagree with one of you guys who think they are the Prophet of Jordan.<br /><br />I look forward to seeing my paragraphs highlighted followed by attacks on my intelligence for saying my opinoin.<br /><br />Thankyou.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-04 21:59:14
subject: <b>Hey, uhhh....</b>
body:
You said it was possible they survived they (moraine and lanfear) trip through the red door because Lan said the bond was transfered not broken.  But if was just transfered why was there the need for emotional consoling.  If it was just a tranfer of a bond Lan would not suffer the usual emotional upheaval and depression.  Otherwise why would Nyneave want the bond to be transfered to her if it would cause Lan that kind of pain.  Or why would Alana offer to thransfer Rand's bond.  Moraine had to have died to cause the reaction Lan had not just transfered the bond. <br /><br />This ofcourse does not completly disprove Lanfear surviving.  So whatever...<br /><br /><br />PS. I really like the theory, but I have heard convincing theories for Grenadal and Sammeal as well.  The whole topic is a bit over-anylized.  By now it really does matter who killed Asmo, just that hes dead.  <br /><br />And what's with the fixed election, is this some Soviet-bloc country of what?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Just grasping for method in madness, <br />design in disorder,<br />beauty in blandness.</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 00:31:51
subject: <b>I have what may be a dumb question.</b>
body:
If so, I'm sorry.  Here it is: did we even know about the True Power before Fires of Heaven?  I thought that was a thing in later books.  It could be I'm just not remembering right.  If so, sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 04:22:47
subject: <b>Columbo already proven wrong</b>
body:
He tells Etzel about arguing for the sake of an argument, but after reading most of the posts and after very good rebuttals he still continues to claim the same old thing without valid rebuttals of his own, and I'm not going to even mention some of the idiotic posts of GreemGaidin.  If you dish it out, be ready to take it also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 04:33:14
subject: <b>You haven't convinced me Etzel</b>
body:
As far as we are concerned, Slayer is just an ordinary Darkfriend with dangerous abilities. We only truly see him in TSR when Perrin meets him. His activies in the Two Rivers seem to be that of a Trolloc leader and not an assassin. He'll kill Perrin because Perrin suspects him of something. We have no indication that Slayer was sent to kill Perrin. After all, the trollocs were chanting his name.<br /><br />As far as your TDR evidence goes, it's very easy to use it in hindsight, but it means very little. The events in the Tower are known to be 'an agent of the Shadow' but no more than that. Yup, they are likely an assassin from the shadow, but who do we know that is an assassin un to that point? Well, numerous darkfriends have tried to kill numerous characters in both books previous to and after Slayer's appearance. Hadnan Kadere, the Lady Shiaine, Black Sisters, black soldiers etc. Even Black warders are known. Why, from all this choice, would it be faesible to single out Slayer, especially when he hasn't even appeared yet and isn't even mentioned five books after he does appear.<br /><br />So, OK if you were very lucky you might pick Slayer out from a list of known Darkfriends to have killed Asmo. Aside from it not matching his known activities up to this moment (we know that he can use TAR, but that's all. He is simply a high up commander in Darkfriend terms), he is not an obvious choice. I would also rfere to the point that RJ said clues were supplied in subsequent books to who the killer was. Slayer, nor any mention of him, does not appear for five more books.<br /><br />The biggie comes with Slayer's PoV. Ah, we see he is a big assassin for the Shadow now. Now various events have been linked explicitly through his PoV we now know that he has killed the Aes Sedai in Tear and Grey Men. These are pretty important. However... where is the mention of Asmodean? You might say that Jordan would never spell something like that out, but he has done in the past. It might be that the reason Slayer never thinks about killing Asmodean is because he didn't. That seems to fit the simple and obvious solution.<br /><br />I guess my opinion is that Slayer's PoV in WH made everyone jump to a conclusion the shouldn't. Sure, Slayer has a motive (well, not his own motive) , a means and and oppurtunity... but so did other, more obvious people. People that fit other requirements that Jordan has stated. And just because he has all those thing, it doesn't make him the killer. It's very reasonable that he didn't do it, IMO. Lanfear, even Sammeal, have much better cases that he does for a while. Graendal has the best case of all, though a extremely strong motive is often missed by people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 05:04:09
subject: <b>still dont buy it</b>
body:
I think the reason people assumed Lanfear was dead is because after the battle between her and Mo Rand says &#8220;she&#8217;s dead they&#8217;re both dead.&#8221; Speaking about the two. At this point in the story no one except for possibly Ishy had been brought back by the DO. So how can it be obvious that a woman supposedly dead can kill when there is no basis for being resurrected?


created: 2004-01-05 06:01:42
subject: <b>,,again on Slayer's 'obviousness'</b>
body:
I see being obvious as at least one of the following:<br /><br />1. Knowing about Asmodean - in tFoH, Asmodean's situation is only known to a few. At least as far as we can tell, and that is what is important.<br /><br />2. Appears in tFoH- I see obvious as someone who is currently in the limelight.<br /><br />3. Appears in subsequent books (LoC and CoS)- Jordan says there are more clues ine these books. <br /><br />4. Has a reason for killing Asmodean<br /><br />5. Can kill quickly<br /><br />6. Someone we KNOW Asmodean recognises.<br /><br />Slayer only satifies 5 with the added comment that it isn't quite as quick as Balefire and there is a lack of evidence on any physical means of death.<br /><br />4. Is bypassed in that only the person who hires him needs to have a motive.<br /><br />6. Is extremely dodgy. You might assume it, but at this stage we have no reason to think that he would know Asmodean. They have no connection apart from being a Darkfriend. <br /><br />2 and 3. are false<br /><br />1. From all indications, Asmodean's predicament is known only to those that Lanfear shared it with. The exceptions are Moghedien and Moiraine. Moiraine learned it from the Finns and Moghedien <i>might</i> know because she was able to spy on the others. As far as we know, no one else knows. The other Forsaken certainly do not.<br /><br />Since there are already 4 people I know of that satisy all 6 requirements, why should we consider Slayer with only one almost solid assumption?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 06:12:36
subject: <b>True power</b>
body:
Aviendha would notice Lanfear using Saidar, especially when she had to draw enough power to create balefire. We must then assume she used the true power. But the true power had only been mentioned once before(at least to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong), namely in the prologue where Ishamael says that he follows a different power now, when he is about to heal Lews Therin. Not very obvious from my point of view...<br /><br />But as I said, the obvious comment by RJ is meant to mock us. And you cannot base a theory upon a comment made by RJ and discard pretty much all hints and clues in the books.<br /><br /><br />Graendal dids it! =)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 06:18:27
subject: <b>intuitively obvious?</b>
body:
what i find intuitively obvious is that RJ was being sarcastic when he said that. he KNEW that there was only ONE theory that was correct about Asmodean's killer. you really think he'd make a stupid comment like &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; and still be serious about it?<br />Columbo, that was a brilliant theory, and you had me going for a couple of days. I even voted yes. but now in retrospect after i read all of these replies, it seems to me you ALL are overreacting and reading too much into RJ's statement (which is intuitively sarcastic).<br />i think assuming slayer is ridiculous--Moridin_2000 (i think) already punched a big hole through that. Columbo's also has some problems.<br />Does anyone in here know what Ackman's Razor (sp?) is? Anyone ever heard of parsimony? Well, this is the simplist explanation: RJ was joking around when he said it jesting at the fact only one person knew who did it.<br /><br />since i am convinced it is not slayer and pretty sure it isn't lanfear, i have no choice but to assume Graendal or Sammael (I lean towards Sammael).


created: 2004-01-05 08:40:48
subject: <b>Some comments</b>
body:
Columbo- your theory is very well written and you've presented your case extremely well. But I think that you've reading way too much into RJ's notorious &quot;Intuitively obvious&quot; quote. As was said in the WOTFAQ, he possibly meant obvious in the way physics professors mean it - which is &quot;not obvious at all if you don't know it already&quot;. RJ just likes to play mind games with his readers and &quot;watch you squirm&quot; as he said himself. I think that all clues needed are in the first 5 books, but it's not intuitively obvious in the general meaning of the expression.<br /><br /> Anyway, I really can't accept Lanfear as a possible killer. For quite a few reasons:<br /> 1)He went through the Doorway along with Moiraine just several hours ago. There's one very significant quote about her experience in Finnland <br /> <br />WH,Ch.55 <br />&quot;She(Alivia) was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!&quot;.<br /> <br /> So obviously she was held a prisoner there for at least some time. And given that from Mat's experience there the time in Finn's realm moves much slower than in the rest of Randland, I can't believe she was able to go and free Asmodean. You can say that one of her wishes was to be freed just to kill ASmo but I really doubt she would waste a wish for something so small from her POV. <br /> <br /> 2)Why didn't she went for Rand or Aviendha's head? She has a much better reason for killing them instead of Asmodean.<br /> <br /> 3)The manner in which Asmo was killed certainly doesn't seem Lanfear's style. She likes to boast before killing, to show everyone how great she is. And as she showed when she went to kill Rand, she prefers to kill slowly and painfully.With her knowing about Asmo's weakened state and having the possibility to instantly take him with her through a Gateway to wherever she wants, I would've expect her not to kill him instantly. In the very least, Asmo can provide valuable info on Rand's progress.<br /><br /> Personally I believe Graendal did it.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 08:42:09
subject: <b>Thanks again, Rekesalat!</b>
body:
If we didn't really know about the True Power by the Fires of Heaven, how can one say any female forsaken is the obvious killer?  Maybe the fact the killing wasn't sensed is a clue, and not a clue to the True Power being used.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 09:34:45
subject: <b>About the saidar sensing...</b>
body:
Actually in TFOH there was no mention that noone sensed anything when Asmo died. The book ended too soon for that. So i don't think that this has much to do with &quot;intuitiveky obvious&quot; comment.<br />  Anyway, here are my thouths on the whole saidar sensing matter which I wrote a while ago for my own interpretation of the Asmodean death:<br /> &quot;  A)We don&#8217;t that Aviendha didn&#8217;t detect channeling.Sure,she hasn&#8217;t said or thought anything like that,by there were more than a month between the end of TFOH and LoC.She may&#8217;ve sensed something but after she didn&#8217;t know of anything strange happening at that time(remember,for her Asmodean is a simple bard,she doesn&#8217;t care for him at all),she didn&#8217;t tell anything to Rand and just forgot about it.We all know that WoT characters just love to keep secrets from each other.<br />  B)There are no rules from how far and on which conditions exactly can you sense channeling and especially women&#8217;s channeling.There is a a quote from CoS,when Moghedien balefires at Nynaeve,which looks as if balefire can be detected very easily.:<br />  Suddenly, what she had done struck her. She had always moved in the dim places, always kept herself hidden, always. ... Any woman in the city who could channel would know someone had drawn a great deal of saidar,<br /> But I think that Moghedien was wrong here because of his fear.Noone of the other channelers in the city at that time seems to notice that at all.And don&#8217;t forget that Moghedien used all her strenght here,she was completely out of herself. Also Lanfear used made numerous gateways while visiting Rand in Tear, in the Aiel Waste, etc, where there were a lot of women around him and none of them seemed to have noticed it.<br /> We don&#8217;t know how far from Aviendha was Asmodean when his was killed and whether how powerful was the balefire tha t Graendal used.Also Aviendha is quite unexperiensed channeler who have just been reborn in a way and may have well felt confused and somewhat disorienteted. We can expect her not to be very wary at that time.<br /> <br /> C)Graendal may have used the True Power.Yes,I know that TP is not mentioned at all before LoC(or CoS,I am not sure),but I think we have seen it used as early as TEOTW&#8217;s Prologue:<br /> <br /> &quot;Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste.<br />   I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes.&quot; His sudden smile was cruel. &quot;But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know.&quot;<br /><br />  It&#8217;s obvious for me that Ishamael is using something different from the OP here.He Travels in a different way and he calls his healing &#8220;Shai&#8217;tan&#8217;s&#8221;.<br />Using the TP is not probable,but still possible.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 10:10:32
subject: <b>ohhh</b>
body:
Wow, this is one controversial theory! Columbo, very well-written, and with a humorous introduction--I actually thought it was going to be a funny theory when I first read it. But you do make a convincing argument, outlining your points and making sure to deal with possible conflicts or contradictions.<br /><br />I'd have to disagree, though. Yes, Lanfear went nuts, and yes, she has motive. She still went through the twisted doorway, and powerful as she is, I doubt she can return so quickly and recognizably. But at the same time, Asmodean's reaction supports your theory so well that I'm starting to doubt my own doubt. Hmmm. Hmmm. Must think about this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 11:01:15
subject: <b>I agree that Asmodean's reactions...</b>
body:
I agree that Asmodean's reactions fit Lanfear well, but if the sensing issue isn't a big deal, can we for sure rule out Moraine?  His reactions would fit her as well, but it's hard to see what she's been up to.


created: 2004-01-05 12:33:50
subject: <b>Indeed</b>
body:
If the sensing issue isn't a big deal, then Moiraine is as likely a suspect as Lanfear. But it is indeed an issue. Do you really believe a Forsaken would be wrong about how easily she would be detected when channeling balefire...? She's a Forsaken, one of the mightiest beings on the world and has been channeling balefire for breakfast since...well...since forever. Point is; Aviendha would've sensed Saidar being used. Conclusion; the true power or a deadly weapon besides the one power must've been used(Slayer for instance). <br /><br />And for those of you who don't believe Asmo would recognize Slayer, RJ has said that ALL the forsaken knew about Slayer and what he did, namely working as an assassin for the shadow.<br /><br />I'll admit it's a weak possibility it was Lanfear who did it, but you CAN'T base a theory on a comment made by RJ(especially when it's only meant to mock us...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 12:46:53
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Lanfear seems right, but not w/o us knowing about the true power.  If we assume that the true power wasn't used, does that leave only Slayer as the killer?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 13:14:39
subject: <b>Lanfear did it</b>
body:
I think Phire was right with his scenario.  I would add that Lanfear didn't kill Aviendha because she wanted people to think she's dead.  So Columbo is right, but, ironically, not for the reasons he says.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thanks, octane!<br />The Dark One's favorite lady <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 13:28:36
subject: <b>See...</b>
body:
I am saying that RJ is quite inconsistent about the whole channeling sensing matter. As I wrote, Lanfear used to gate in and out of many places full of women channelers but was never noticed and to create a gateway takes quite a lot of Power.<br /> Of course the sensing stuff makes the the idea of a channeler killer somewhat less possible, but it still quite a easier problem to explain in comparison of those which the other theories has IMO.<br /> BTW, why on Earth Moiraine would want to kill Asmo? She has just wrote to Rand in the letter she left him that she accepts his decision to use Asmo as a teacher.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 13:37:52
subject: <b>on slayer</b>
body:
I personally do not think Slayer or Lanfear did it.  However, I do not think you can just say Asmo would not reconize Slayer like Moridin_2000 implies.  Slayer is important enough that there is a dark prophecy written about him in TGH.  I think the DO's top dogs would all know about those prophecies and would understand them fully.  I would be very surprised if Asmo did not recognize Slayer.  I still don't know how slayer would have found him.  Of course, he could have been spying on the court yard from a window and simply got into place when Asmo started to leave alone.<br /><br />Nothing in Columbo's theory makes me think that Lanfear could have gotten out of Finn land in just a few hours.  Also, she is ready to kill Rand and Avi when we last see her.  She is not hunting for Asmo.  Nothing Columbo has since written has explained why she would pass up killing Avi and would wreck her vengeance on her own tool instead.  Yes, you cannot trust Lanfear, and RJ's writing can be very symbolic at times.  If Lanfear did kill Asmo and left Avi alive and untouched just 100 feet away, I would say this is a major character change for a fairly major character to this point in the story.  I don't think Jordan would do that.<br /><br />If someone shut down the voting, that is very bad and should be fixed right away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 14:29:18
subject: <b>Thanks, Zeratul....</b>
body:
....for clearing up a bit more about the sensing of saidar. It has been irritating me for a while that people put too much meaning into this. <br /><br />As has been stated several times before, it's quite possible that Aviendha didn't think much of the channeling even if she sensed it, because there were many other channelers in the area at the time, i. e. Wise Ones, and as it was right after a battle, there was surely a lot of cleaning up to do. <br /><br />Secondly, and this has also been mentioned before, why do some people assume Asmo was killed by balefire? There are plenty of other ways to kill him and remove all traces using much less OP. So I think we can rule out the True Power, simply because there are many other, and simpler, possibilities. (Ockham's Razor again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 14:54:45
subject: <b>Sorry I was not availible......</b>
body:
I quickly read the posts, and have come to the conclusion that I will have to address your concerns in a different fashion.  I have given real evidense, but left some wiggle room as well.  There are those with questions that have been unanswered.  I intend to answer those questions, but not at this moment. Soon.  I have the answers, and by the time I'm done there will be no wiggle room left.  Facing the truth in the end will be painless I promise.<br /><br /><br />Stay Tuned to the Theory Post, the best is yet to come!<br /><br />This is the most fun I've had in quite some time.  Please continue to address your concerns, as I will keep an eye on your posts and address all of your concerns soon.<br /><br />Thanks Moridin 2000 for shedding light on the Slayer issue.  <br /><br />Columbo is all over this one!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 15:12:07
subject: <b>I mean seriously folks.</b>
body:
This is ridiculous. If people are putting up this much of an argument, they're steadfast in what they believe. And anyone, can you really say for certain that you're the <i>only</i> person who had come up with this idea of who killed Asmodean? The only person out of...however many people read WoT and ask RJ who did it? I didn't think so.<br /><br />On the other hand, you have to admit that I'm probably the only one who has said that Asmodean is sitting around in Shayol Ghul eating Girl Scout Cookies. Right? I think we should all believe that. No matter what.<br /><br />Oh yeah, Kudos to all of you on keeping this discussion going. I love it.


created: 2004-01-05 17:09:17
subject:
<b>This is some of the best discussion we've had in a long time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Columbo... I agree with your theory...but I have one little question.. Given the timeline of the events that day..do you see any way for someone other than a known channeler to have been able to do the deed? I don't...but i'm not so sure of the exactness of my perception of the timeline. Post more like this please..<br /><br />Etzel... I see where you are coming from ..I even like your well written theory...but in this I just can't see the same pattern you do. Sorry.... But do keep up the awesome theory posts... I have learned so much about WoT thanks to such excellent writing.  More....<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 17:33:43
subject: <b>She would've sensed it...</b>
body:
When Aes Sedai didn't notice Lanfear, or anyone else, use lots of the one power, they expected it to be used. If you can come up with an example where the one power is not expected to be used, but is, and is not detected, then I may be wrong. But don't you think Avi would've been kinda &quot;on the edge&quot; after an attempted assasination on Rand...? Just seconds away from Asmo, suddenly there's a good amount of Saidar being used, and you're saying she wouldn't even notice? She's never said that she noticed anything, and we've never seen her think about it in her POV's. <br /><br />The conclusion is that it was not Saidar being used. Saidin might be a possibility. The true power a stronger one, although the Forsaken is extremely catious about using it(cept for ishy...). And the&quot;obvious&quot; comment is meant to mock, not to base a theory upon. <br /><br />And it was Arthur Hawkwing who dids it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 17:47:39
subject: <b>Saidin would have been noticed as well....</b>
body:
Rand was on the floor directly above where Asmodean lost his life at the exact time of the act.  Rand surely would not have missed the fact that a large amount of Saidin was used below his feet.  Rules out Sammuel, doesn't it?  <br /><br />Avi was a alot greener than Rand at the time, and might not have interpreted what was happening in the next room.  The other explanation is the use of the  True power.<br /><br />Stay Tuned, lots more soon.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 18:44:33
subject: <b>The Jawa is on the case!</b>
body:
For all you people who continually repeat that Asmodean would have toasted Slayer with the One Power, answer me this: why do Aes Sedai have Warders? Because everything, even killing someone with the One Power, takes time. If you don't have time, you die. Not that I think Slayer did it, I just wanted to throw that little analogy in.<br /><br />Columbo: I suppose your theory introduction was humorous. Your posts on this message board have most certainly not been humorous, they have been egotistical. Please desist.<br /><br />You rebuke other posters for not responding to your comments. Why have you not yet answered all the people asking how Lanfear got out of Finnland? I must admit, this one has me stumped too. Note that Birgitte said in tSR that it was near impossible to get out of the Tower of Ghenji, the link between Finnland and Randland.<br /><br />You call the fact that RJ at another time mentioned a clue and a mystery within a page of one another a pattern. Very well, I have a similar pattern. Mat died in Finnland, therefore it is likely that Lanfear did too. Here's another: Mat came out of Finnland seven days later. Again, Lanfear would have too, assuming she could find a way out. <br /><br />You mention in your theory that Lanfear has Asmodean spying on Rand. Where is your evidence? What quote supports this? The one of Lanfear asking a question of Kadere? I think not.<br /><br />Returning to the point about Lanfear being stuck, how is it intuitively obvious that she is the killer, if a few hours before that we saw her thrown into another world with the doorway being destroyed behind her? She is removed from the picture. My first thought concerning Lanfear and Asmodean's death is not &quot;Must be Lanfear, she had a questionable motive.&quot; It's &quot;Lanfear's dead.&quot; Whether she was dead at that point or not, it seems intuitively obvious to me that she was out of the picture at least temporarily.<br /><br />Have you read the Two Servants theory? It's an interesting read. There are far less vague suggestions and mentions of the phrase &quot;intuitively obvious&quot;, and far more concrete facts. There's even a diagram...<br /><br />http://www2.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/main/theories.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 20:23:34
subject: <b>Here goes nothing</b>
body:
Well I have to say these arguments have gotten ridiculously heated when both sides have made some valid points.  Quickly I would like to say that I do not agree with it being Lanfear.  It doesn't feel right to me, i.e. my intuition tells me otherwise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.  But since i don't have a truly significant intrest in presenting any major evidence im just going to respond to what i see as loose ends on both sides (I definitly don't think its Slayer either.)  First point is if your argument is for Lanfear you have to at least postulate when and how she died after returning to kill Ash.  There is no reason for the Dark One to kill her or to make her weaker for that matter, so if she left the Finns as Lanfear she would still be Lanfear.  I know we are arguing this based on the information of the first five books but if you have access to other information use it.  If this theory was written right after FoH the dismissal of later information would be acceptable because there would be no later information but here we have some.  The next point is that although he may not have had a chance to talk to Rand, if Ash thought either Moiraine or Lanfear had anyway to get back from Finnland why would he not only assuage everyones grief and warn them as well, I have no reason to believe that something as big as portals to other worlds would be less than commmon knowledge, there was probably a waiting list to go through the doors in the AOL.  Another point is that many often attribute the Dark One's comments on Ash's death to mean he died by balefire.  Umm,maybe but probably not.  I am positive that the Dark One can only bring back those who are bound to him ah la blacker than black chords.  Ash is no longer bound to him and so is beyond his reach.  Meaning he could have died by natural means or by channeling of some other sort.  And as someone else mentioned just because channeling was felt in the city doesn't mean anyone paid it any attention.  Rand may not have paid attention if he felt some miniscule amount of saidin being channeled he would have thought it was Ash.  And regardless of Wise Ones, because I'm not sure if many or any were there, other Maidens beside Avi can channel and they all are somwhat trained or else they would be dead from the sickness.  A little saidar here and ther would not necessarily push any buttons.  Suian was sheilded in the White Tower because she was not paying attention to a building full of Aes Sedai channeling.  Those things aside if we truly going to go on intuitively obvious(like the identity of Demandred?), I would say regardless of the truth we all thought Moiraine was dead and in conjucntion Lanfear, anyone who says otherwise I would have no trouble calling a liar.  If someone did think it, its been at least <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />9 years since FOH was published. This is the first time I've read anything about either slayer or Lanfear. and IMHO both theories are a result of later information.  Could it be that knowing what we have come to know about the return of Moiraine and the rebirth of Lanfear as Cyndane that it became a possibility for one of them to have done it.  Could it be that finding out about Slayer abilities in  TAR we can guess that as usual RJ put somebody in the picture several books before we needed to remember them (Where is Hurin anyway?)   According to RJ's scientific obviousness perhaps its possible to figure out that Aelf and Elf are similar and connected, that there is a way for people to get from one to the other that there is a another way for them to escape.  According to that same type of obviousness it is possible to connect mysterious murders in several books to someone.  To compare, it is only a little more of a stretch to realize that Slayer was the mystery killer than it was to realize that Moridin was Ishy.  Meaning that I think to compare the two recent theories one is as valid as the other and though I don't believe either one, we can all see they both were very believable ideas and are both possible.  I personally hope that RJ will just tell us because I don't think obvious is obvious at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-05 21:18:16
subject: <b>Other Questions that must be asked</b>
body:
Asmo dies in Book 5<br /><br />Since then we have had Slayers &amp; Cyndane PoV but neither mention nailing a Chosen. Why?<br /><br />The answer could be <br />1) RJ is a sadist and likes to leaves us guessing <br />2) The killer is still in Camelyn or has close access to Rand and RJ doesn't want to reveal him/her yet.<br />3) RJ is writing a 'mother' of a prologue taking place the minute Lanfear and Moiraine crash through into Finnland.<br /><br />The answer could also be all 3 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-05 23:30:34
subject: <b>The secret weapon.</b>
body:
all right, i've gone extreme. over the last 3 months, i've addicted a friend of mine to WOT.<br /><br />i've lured her into figureing out several mysteries, such as Ishy being Ba'alzomon in the first three books.<br /><br />she is currently one chapter away from finishing TFOH.<br /><br />i have told her NOT to read book 6 until i get her opinion on something at the end of the book. that being asmo.<br /><br />i shall soon have her info and outlook, and ask her to name all possible killers from the eyes of someone who HAS NOT READ BEYOND THE KILLING.<br /><br />im hoping the names she spits out will incite some more discussion.<br /><br /><br /><br />oh as a quick question to those who have no lives, where was fain at the time of asmo's death??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 00:11:42
subject:
<b>I intuitively thought of Lanfear too. Here are some holes, and possible reinforcement to patch them up with.</b>

body:
Firstly, i immediately thought of Lanfear when i read the scene.<br /><br />Secondly, i have NEVER believed Lanfear and Mo died, not at any point. I found it inconceivable that anyone could think either one REALLY left for good when they fell through the doorway. No, i'm not lying On. I knew that Mo at least would be making a comeback at some point and still marvel at how Min thinks Mo is dead and gone. I can see how Rand would say she's dead, because Rand is thick.<br /><br />Now, to the meat of it. My real problem is that Lanfear didn't make an effort to kill Avi. I accept her reasons for Asmo, and i accept she had to be careful about how she used her power... but a wish granting her the power to exact revenge on someone... Rand was too lofty a target. Ok. But Avi should have been the next target for sure. If Lanfear was using the TP then she should have had NO problem taking a potshot at Avi from that same little doorway Asmo blundered through. I really don't think she was using the TP though. Either, as others have stated, her small, brief burst of Saidar was ignored as background channeling. Or, the Finns granted her the means, either with Saidar or a weapon, to do the deed fast and undetected and also to clean up after.<br /><br />So, why Asmo and not Avi? Was she conscious (and cool headed enough) to want to refrain from revealing her return to the land of the living to Rand et al? Did she feel she could do Rand (and Avi) more damage by getting them GOOD after biding her time and plotting properly, true FS style? Did she feel that she was in deep doodoo with the DO and realise she was about to go back to him with her tail between her legs and thought at the least if she eliminated Asmo it would strengthen her case and clean up recriminating evidence, hence keeping open the possibility the DO wouldn't realise how badly she had let him down in order to pursue her own dangerously lofty goals? (Sorry for the long sentence) Or possibly somewhat mollify the DO by undoing some of her damage and robbing Rand of his teacher? Was THAT uppermost in her mind, and personal vengeance and plots finally taking a back burner? Maybe, i think.<br /><br />I like the proposed scenarios for Lanfear's movements after falling through the doorway. I do NOT believe the DO deliberately placed her in a weaker body, no way. Cyndane. The name is just that, a name. As with the other resurrected FS, it's a reminder and a threat. It does not mean the DO killed her just to put her in a weaker body as punishment. I believe the Finns granted her wishes first, then exacted the price after. I don't think they killed her, she only Pov'd being HELD by them, not killed. So. HOW and WHEN did she become Cyndane?<br /><br />Not before she killed Asmo, that is possible only if you really squirm and twist things about, but to keep it simple, let's dismiss it as unlikely. As payment to the Finns? Sounds likely. So she didn't die and get resurrected the way the other FS were, but it was done by the Finns and then she was dumped back in the real world. OR, somewhere along the way, she wasn't as lucky as Mat, and she got damaged by the Finns, and the DO did have to resurrect her? That's all open to discussion, and a definite RAFO (if we're lucky and RJ isn't too sadistic about this one). It isn't in any way detrimental to the Lanfear Dunnit theory though. It's just an incidental detail.<br /><br />It's all complicated and convoluted, but the intuitively obvious factor is indeed there. It's only when you try to poke deeper that you hit problems and it all gets complicated (especially AFTER the FoH. But before the later books it IS simple and straight forward, though the finer details are a big quivering question mark promising to be explained in time). BUT even then you can still NOT discount Lanfear conclusively. Even with the limited information at the point of Asmo's death, we all know anything is possible with RJ, especially with enigmatic beings such as the Finn being involved. We also SHOULD know (in the same way we knew that the Ring WOULD get chucked into the Cracks of Doom in that last scene, just in time) that there is NO way Mo is dead.. like DUR. The manner of Asmo's demise should have been like a sign beating us over the head that Mo is on her way to save the day and shack up with Thom. And that the Femme fatale was still as live and lethal as ever.<br /><br />My two, long winded cents.<br /><br />P.S. What's with Bashere strolling in with fresh wine from the pantry two seconds after Asmo's death? Has anyone tried to tie that one into all this? Or is it just another red herring to keep us guessing about whether Bash is a DF, who quietly disposed of Asmo's body after coming across it? Or maybe, like Mo, Bash worked out who Natal was and didn't much care for him, and kept quiet about his body, but isn't a DF? But even then you'd think he would have the common sense to warn Rand that someone had knocked off his FS friend?<br /><br />OR maybe the whole thing with Bash strolling in with wine after the Asmo scene is to punctuate the fact that there WAS no body for Bash or anyone else to find.<br /><br />Please forgive any mistakes i've made, it's been a long, long time since i read any Wot at all. And sorry it's so long.<br /><br />By the way, i'm arguing FOR Lanfear Dunnit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 01:24:52
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
First of all to Lady Fortune:  Thank you; you seem to be the only person here who actually took the time to read that post <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />RJ must be rofl at this discussion.  I think he purposely left it such a mystery just to see what people would think.  Maybe he hasn't even decided who did it!  I have to say his comment on it bein so obvious is a big joke.  Also by his comment about figuring it out from the first 5 books, all that tells us it that the suspect was introduced sometime before tFoH.<br /><br />Now i seem to recall my personal reaction after I finished tFoH.  Maybe somebody can tell me why I'm wrong... But I thought it was Fain that killed Asmo.  He can kill quick, stay hidden, and he hates anyone linked to the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 01:28:05
subject: <b>Almost forgot</b>
body:
O yeah, and about the only 1 theory being correct.  I can't see this as anything but a total joke.  We've seen countless theories on basically all the possible killers so this would be saying that they are all wrong.  Meaning the right answer is... like a Gholam or something?  Ya, i wouldn't read into RJ's comments too much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 01:46:36
subject: <b>Hey Columbo</b>
body:
Nice theory...<br /><br />I just wanted to say that I like it.<br /><br />I haven't read the whole blackboard convo yet, but I'll get to it fast... cause I don't want to repeat some of you other guys.<br /><br />I have never been able to rule Lanfear out in my mind either.  We are still missing information on what exactly happened to her, so we can not draw too many conclusions.  <br /><br />I agree that Lanfear is the most intuitively obvious candidate.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Matrimony Cauthon hath gone and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 06:34:55
subject: <b>what did the &quot;You&quot; mean?</b>
body:
An interesting question as far as I'm concerned is the world you. In my opinion, it might mean two things, firstly, it may refer to a person Asmodean knows, maybe he knows what will happen at the sight of the person and therefore is surprised by his own fate.(This obviously leads away from Lanfear and more towards Slayer or maybe Fain a living forsaken is also offcourse a possibility), and second a person that he never thought possibly would be there (This might mean a person dead or a person he didnt think was of any danger to him, This certainly leads away from any of the forsakens except those dead)<br /><br />But if you met a person, under what circumstances would you use the world you, it is obvious that you know about the person, but obviously youre not prepared to see him or her, if you did meet an old friend, and maybe was unsure if it really was that person, you would quite possibly adress him or her with their name to see if they responded.<br /><br />The &quot;you&quot; would quite possibly refer to something he under no circumstances was prepared to see (like Lanfear), it would quite possibly be a comment of dissbelief, like if yuo were certain this person would never go after you. <br />This somehow rules the forsakens and Slayer out. Asmodean knew he was on the top of the forsakens most wanted list, and that the punishment for his betrayal would  give him some very dangerous enemies. If he knew of slayer, he would obviously not refer to him as you (except if he wasnt sure he recogniced him, and then said &quot;Slayer?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> it would mean his certain death, and he would probably scream out in fear. We have seen no other use of slayer than in the killing buisness so it had surely meant his doom if he couldnt defend himself. to follow the so called &quot;you&quot; lead we have to see closer on slayer because most people seems to make him a lot more powerfull than he really seems to be.<br /><br />Slayer:<br />Known as Isham and Luc. we learn that he is somehow working for the shadow, maybe as a general or a hitman. he has no channeling powers, but posesses a  strange ability in Tar. He travels Tar in the flesh (cant say it for sure, but its quite likely). We have no knowledge if he can read dreams (as far as i know). he is extremly strong in close combat, fast and agile(he is the master wolfkiller and hunter, killing a wolf in randland is no easy task)<br /><br />not very good, but we dont know much more about him, al least at the point this theory refers to, and its also difficult to conclude this just with the help of the first books. we probably cannot say this much for certain either. its been a while since i read those books.<br /><br />Does this make him a likely killer, nope, it makes him a really dangerous person, but not much more. His weakness to channelers at this point seems very obvious, its not like his got any resistance to the power like the gholam. it would be a very dangerous game indeed. i also feel he isnt quite as good in Tar as many believe, I mean, if he was, he could just pop up everywhere and kill people while they where asleep. it is possible though that he can locate sleeping persons and their whereabouts to some degree, or maybe he can sense darkfriends. asmodean could also quite possibly defend himself against a knife or a bolt, and the killing wouldnt be instant. Slayer is not more than a really small possibility.<br /><br />Lanfear is probaly the person that lives up to the &quot;you?&quot; word best. Asmodean hated, and feared her, and Asmodean would certainly be surprised to see her.<br /><br />The gholam is no possibility at all, how could asmodean refer to him as you, there is no reason, and there are tons of other reasons the gholam couldnt have done it.<br /><br />The living but not resurrected forsakens are certainly an ability, and first of them Graendal, she is hard to dismiss in any way, and should not be forgotten.<br /><br />our suspect should then look something like this:<br />1. Graendal: most people seem to think shes the one<br />2. Lanfear. she fits perfect, the only thing that doesnt fit in is that she as far as we know, she was trapped in Finnland<br />3. The living and not rescurrected forsakens, Asmodean would reconice them<br />4. the other forsakens, they have the power and the knowledge at least<br />5. Slayer. he could have done it, though much speaks against it <br />6. Fain: always to be reckoned shall not be forgotten in this case either<br />7. Gholam, hes got the power, but not much more<br />8. myrdraals, darkfriends, SH or the DO (Im joking, or so i think)<br />and then some other folks<br />Moiraine: She could have done it, she knew who Asmodean really was, and knew how to make balefire-a wish?<br />Lan: probably also knew about Ash<br /><br />Have I forgotten anyone?<br /><br />My bet is on Lanfear, she seems to just fit in best, though she cant be the top candidate before more is revealed about the finns and her whereabouts<br /><br />i may have forgotten some stuff, but its quite good i think<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 10:18:02
subject: <b>Just a quick comment about Moiraine being dead and a history of WOT theories</b>
body:
I never thought Moiraine was dead.  The LOTR's parallel is way too strong to ignore the Gandalf returning factor.  Also, there is the evidence of she and Thom getting married, blah blah blah.  I never thought either of them were dead.  Very few peopole did, at least those who were vocal on the net.<br /><br />Also, when the edition of the FAQ that was post FOH first came out, most thought it was Lanfear, a few thought it was Graendal.  When the fish was discovered, the Graendal theory became HUGE.  After RJ's comment on it people kept trying to find more stuff to indict Graendal.  It was only after WH came out that anyone started believing in the Slayer theory.  Prior to that everyone said straight out &quot;channeling's too fast, slayer couldn't have done it.&quot;  After WH, people back pedaled and said &quot;well, we decided channeling isn't ALL that much faster than normal humans.&quot;<br /><br />Incidently, I too have gotten someone to read WOT and she is currently on FOH.  Don't know when she'll finish though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 11:02:11
subject: <b>A few more points</b>
body:
I see people making the same statements again and again.<br /><br />For one, they keep saying that Rand brought Wise Ones with him, so there were a bunch of female channelers in Caemlyn.<br /><br />This is not true. He brought Maidens of the Spear. At this point in the story, Wise Ones did not take part in battles. <br /><br />If there were any Aes Sedai there, we don't know of any, except the Tower spy that we saw Rahvin using compulsion on. (He used her to send back only the info he wanted the Tower to know).<br /><br />As for Bashere, he enters the room Rand is in with his jar of wine and two goblets, BEFORE Asmo is killed. Go back and reread if you don't believe me. It's at the beginning of the chapter. It starts out with Rand looking out through the window on Avi, Mat and Asmo. He lets himself down from the window, a couple of Maidens offer him some soup, and then he hears Bashere approaching. Rand and Bashere have their conversation, then the scene shifts to Asmo. <br /><br />Now, I would like to address something that Etzel seems to be inferring in regards to Slayer's abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod. He seems to suggest that Slayer can find people from T'A'R in relation to the waking world. Jordan would have to bend his own rules in regards to this, to the point of breaking. <br /><br />Permanently placed objects in the waking world, like furniture, appear solid in T'A'R. Transitional things, like notes in Elaida's box on her desk, shift and change. Since people don't stay in one place, there should be no way they should be able to found from T'A'R.<br /><br />In fact, Egwene has told us that just because you can find someone's dreams, does not mean that you can find where there physical body is in the waking world. Several times we are told that distance has no meaning there.<br /><br />Slayer could not see Asmo from T'A'R. The DO may have given him special abilities so he can enter it, but the DO cannot change the nature of T'A'R itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 11:24:29
subject: <b>DOWN RIGHT RUDE YOU ARE InsaneJawa!</b>
body:
InsaneJawa's questions, followed by Columbo's answers<br /><br /><br />InsaneJawa ask -why do Aes Sedai have warders?<br />Columbo answers - Warders are the steel agains steel InsaneJawa.<br /><br />Next<br /><br />InsaneJawa - Why have you not yet answered all the people asking how Lanfear got out of Finnland? <br /><br />Columbo - Answer is coming, I won't let you done InsaneJawa.<br /><br />Next please,<br /><br />InsaneJawa - You mention in your theory that Lanfear has Asmodean spying on Rand. Where is your evidence? What quote supports this? The one of Lanfear asking a question of Kadere?<br /><br />Columbo - I won't waste my time answering this question.  It's a dumb question!  Of course he was relaying info to Lanfear!  <br /><br />Next<br /><br />InsaneJawa - Returning to the point about Lanfear being stuck, how is it intuitively obvious that she is the killer, if a few hours before that we saw her thrown into another world with the doorway being destroyed behind her? <br /><br /><br />Columbo - It's painfull but your going to have to wait a little longer for the answer to this question. <br /><br />Next please<br /><br />InsaneJawa - Have you read the Two Servants theory? It's an interesting read. <br /><br /><br />Columbo- Yes I have read the Two Servants theory.  Its a waste of time and has no foundation on which to base it.  Sammuel and Greandal did not come to Rahvin's aid.  They DID NOT COME! Threfore they were not there.  Sammuel and Greandal posing as servants and the found cowering in a corner hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  That fits Greandal and Sammueals profile right? NO!<br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 11:57:04
subject: <b>Replies and thanks....</b>
body:
Thanks for the feedback everyone, input for and against.  Sorry if I've come across poorly at times, I'm trying to defend the theory the best I can, and I get a little carried away once and a while.  <br /><br />Onarishma - I used only info leading up to the murder as Robert Jordan suggested, to try and prove my case for Lanfear.  You make a good point when you suggested we should use the info we've been given since, and I'm working on that as fast as I can.  You and others have made some valid points and I hope to have a response soon.<br /><br />Please be patient and stay tuned.<br /><br />iram_k - Its scary reading your post, we think along the same lines.  You took some of the words out of my mouth.  Stay tuned, you'll like what I'm putting together.<br /><br />Ghost of Matrimony - Thanks for stopping in, hope to see some comments from you soon.<br /><br />Light of the Night - Thanks for the corrections, your input is always needed and welcome.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 12:23:26
subject: <b>Not really a dumb question.</b>
body:
<b>Columbo:</b> <i>I won't waste my time answering this question. It's a dumb question! Of course he was relaying info to Lanfear!</i><br /><br />Why is this a dumb question?  Lanfear was talking to Karede(?) about what Rand was doing, asking him for her information.  Karede (?) was tryng to use Isendre to spy on Rand.  There's no direct link to Asmodean giving Lanfear information, and considering his thoughts about how he now had to side with Rand (knowing he was branded a traitor and the forsaken would kill him even if they didn't believe it) so he wouldn't go out of his way to give Lanfear info.  I admit if she tried to get info from him, he would gladly do it (he's terrified of her), but I see no indication she even tried to.<br /><br /><b>Columbo:</b>   &lt;/I&gt;It's painfull but your going to have to wait a little longer for the answer to this question &lt;/I&gt;<br /><br />Uhh, that's just odd.  You're asked to re-clarify why Lanfear would be intuitively obvious, the whole point of your theory, and you say to wait?  Oh well, hopefully it'll be worth it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 13:53:02
subject: <b>haha!</b>
body:
and guess what?<br /><br />my amazing secret weapon earlier responded! aaaand,<br /><br />she assumed it had to be the forsaken. <br />(slayer? who? the wolf killer)<br /><br />so i got a list of em all from the back of book 5, and she did a process of elimination, and ended up with sammael, graendal and semhirhage.<br /><br />semmy: &quot;who?&quot;<br />sammael: &quot;he's a genereal guy, he wouldnt do it in person&quot;<br />graendal: &quot;she's all thats left, must be her&quot;<br /><br />so there we have it folks, from a n00bs view, it was graendal!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 18:21:21
subject: <b>Well I can't resist posting just a little on this one</b>
body:
*waves to old friends*<br /><br />I just wanted to say a few things, not much in the way of proof or anything, just some observations I have had with friends who have read the series.<br /><br />When I first read asmo's death scene, Lanfear immediately came to mind. You know in movies and such when it looks like they finally kill the bad guy, only for them to show up in the next scene to make one last stand against the good guys, I kinda figured it like that. This was back on my first reading, when I was a casual reader. It wasn't till later after hanging out at this place all the time and rereading the series that I started to suspect other folks as the killer. Greandal was my main suspect up until reading columbo's theory. For some reason, I was back again feeling that gut feeling it could be Lanfear, in fact, I see no reason now that it couldn't. <br /><br />When I turned my older bro onto the series, and he told me one morning he finished TFoH, first thing I asked him: &quot;Who killed Asmo?&quot; his reply, &quot;I dunno, I think Lanfear&quot;. This was when he too was just a casual reader.<br /><br />Later I got my wife to read the series, she hasn't finished yet, but when she got done with tFoH, I asked again: &quot;who killed Asmo?&quot; her reply, &quot;I think it was Lanfear&quot;. <br /><br />I think you will find most people think it was Lanfear on their first reading. It's shocking that she could still be alive after she fell though the doorway, but at that point, that is as much of the book you have read in your first reading, and if indeed it should be obvious at that point, there just are not a lot of other suspects. <br /><br />Anyway, props on a good theory columbo, I know I don't offer anymore proof, just observations of three people (myself included) back when we were &quot;casual observers&quot;. <br /><br />Well, this work day is over, I am off to Waldenbook to buy me a copy of &quot;New Spring&quot;. Hope that revives my WoT spirit!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 19:11:17
subject: <b>Thanks Windsor..</b>
body:
Nice to see your name, its been a long time.  You have help rienforce the theory.  Sometimes we can't accept what is obvious.  Time and again we complicate matters, make them more than they are??<br /><br />RJ's qoute fits, RJ's pattern shows up and everything points to Lanfear, we even have a solid motive.  Slam dunk case right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 22:14:46
subject: <b>A few points...</b>
body:
Good points Vercingetorix, my sentiments exactly.<br /><br />Light in the Night:<br /><br />Sorry Light in the Night , as I said, &#8216;Please forgive any mistakes I&#8217;ve made, it's been a long, long time since I read any Wot at all.&#8217;<br /><br />Can anyone who has just read FoH please let us know if there is any possible source of background Saidar noise? Nevertheless, it does not matter even if there isn&#8217;t, as this theory suggests Lanfear knocking off Asmo could have been a wish granted by the vicious Finns. I think, if that is so, they would have provided her with the means to be fast, successful in her aim after all so Asmo didn&#8217;t stand a chance, undetected, and to possibly be recognized by Asmo the instant before he died just for the FS hell of it. And possibly to clear up the evidence after the deed.<br /><br />My earlier statement on this was, &#8216;Either, as others have stated, her small, brief burst of Saidar was ignored as background channelling. Or, the Finns granted her the means, either with Saidar or a weapon, to do the deed fast and undetected and also to clean up after.&#8217;<br /><br />As to Bashere&#8230; thanks for the info. Aargh, it&#8217;s been so long for me! What a blunder. But still, what does it mean? Is it a red herring? Is it suggesting Bash is possibly a DF, doing recon with the hit man just before Asmo was whacked? Is it indication that the killer was so good or even a channeler so that Bashere didn&#8217;t notice or even encounter them in the pantries? That&#8217;s an RAFO, and again doesn&#8217;t detract from this theory. Whether it does have any bearing remains to be seen I guess.<br /><br /><br />Mussels and Windsor, great input, I was dying to hear what the results were!<br /><br />To others who are disputing Lanfear using Asmo as a spy&#8230; why? What has that got to do with it? I know this sounds presumptuous, but I really thought I&#8217;d come up with the best reason why Lanfear would take out Asmo. Lanfear had just suffered major catastrophe in every way. She had been shunned by Rand, scorned and betrayed, all her plans torn asunder, quite publicly. Then she&#8217;s in a life death struggle with a midget AS and THEN she&#8217;s stuck in Finnland, bargaining for her freedom and wishes, knowing full well the nasty, tricksy Finns are gonna give her the short end of the bargain no matter what. What is left for Lanfear at this time? She gets her paltry wishes, but what will she do after she escapes? She is an FS, she knows she will be grovelling on her belly at SG&#8230; there&#8217;s nowhere else left. So. She needs to perform some major salvage operations, while in a tight situation, before she can hope to go home to Poppa DO. She needs to use her wishes for damage control. Whatever the other two wishes were, one would likely have been to undo the Asmo fiasco to some extent. She is still mad about events, but her priority is damage control in preparation for meeting the DO again. THAT&#8217;S why she takes out Asmo. Not for vengeance. But because she has to. If she got any pleasure or satisfaction from the deed then it was incidental.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 22:43:20
subject: <b>Fain...</b>
body:
When I first finished tFoH i thought it was Fain.  If anyone has some evidence about why it definitely isn't him, please let me know.  Otherwise be prepared for a new theory on Asmo's killer in the near future! mwuhahahaha<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 01:07:54
subject: <b>RE: Slam dunk</b>
body:
While I wish it were, and while I now have a new favorite level 3 Asmo killer, I am going to pull an agnostic on this. There just isn't enough evidence either way for me to make a decision... a &quot;for sure&quot;. <br /><br />About the theory: I especially liked how you pointed out that there is nothing that says Lanfear died when she went into the doorway. Moirane pushing away Lan from her conscience did a lot in making me accept that, perhaps she just passed the bond. Like you say, there is nothing that tells us what does happen when they fall though. The other great point I liked was both of them probably didn't show up in the same place once they fell though. They most likely went through a Finn filter or some such, and ended up in different doorsteps. We have already seen this happen when Mat, Rand and Moirane were in there together. These are things I overlooked, but are very important IMO.<br /><br />You pointed out many things I just had not thought of, and now thinking about them. I have no reason not to suspect Lanfear. There is no flaming arrow on who killed Asmo. Yet Lanfear has entered the realm of possibility for me again. Many suspect Moriane is going to make a comeback. I am one of them, but she is not dead is she? If we assume that they are going to rescuer her from the Finns? I want to believe that one, and await her rescue, but time will tell. But if we can believe that, then how come Lanfear died? Because some Aes Sedai said that questions touching the shadow would be bad? I am going to have to reread the series again, with this crap in mind now, thanks a lot (little sarcasm there, your making me think too much)!<br /><br />I wonder if RJ will ever clear this up for us. I know he likes to see us squirm, but this is turning almost masochist. Even if he told me the answer tomorrow, I am not so sure I wouldn't call BS and think he changed his mind. It has gotten that far out of hand, we now believe that RJ is changing things as he goes when we figure it out. *cough* *cough* *taimncoughendread* *cough* <br /><br />Yet Taimendred was so in your face obvious, maybe that was a setup. Maybe Asmo is a setup; maybe this guy really gets off on fooling us. Maybe he changes it as he goes, and writes it ambiguous so he can play with us. I don&#8217;t know if I will ever trust what happens is what was supposed to happen in the beginning (when he conceived the story), does that make sense?<br /><br />I am rambling, thing is, like I said, I am agnostic about it, don't really know either way, and by all accounts, never will. *shrugs*<br /><br />Still a good theory&#8230;<br /><br /><br />Yet, d<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 01:07:55
subject: <b>Fain was number two in my mind after Lanfear, when i first read FoH...</b>
body:
I would love to hear some facts about Fain's whereabouts etc during that period and a theory about him. You need to list:<br />How Fain got there, when, why and how he remained undetected.<br />Who would have been with him (trollocs, WCs etc) and where were they kept hidden.<br />Was there a particular motive, or did Asmo just blunder into Fain, and Fain lash out and enjoy the moment as is his want?<br />What did he do with the body?<br />Would Fain have known of Asmo's role to Rand? Would he not then have taken pleasure in leaving the body to be found?<br />Did someone else find the body and hide it, a DF, or someone who just didn't like Natal, or someone who had sussed Natal was a FS and thought it was for Rand's good that he was dead?<br />Could the body have been found by a Caemlyn servant who didn't know Asmo was a Dragon cronie, and simply been disposed of along with the other fatalities in the aftermath of the Rahvin battle?<br />Where did Fain go next (just to fit the theory chronologically into the rest of the story).<br /><br />Lanfear was the MOST intuitively obvious at the time, fitting into context with Asmo's last thoughts etc. Fain doesn't fit into the whole narrative pattern in that sense, but you could imagine Asmo's reaction being much the same with Fain... If Asmo knew who the hell Fain was and how powerful, evil and downright dangerous and nasty Fain had become in recent months.<br /><br />Did Asmo know Fain? Would he have COME to know OF Fain, offscreen so to speak? And then recognise him instantly before his death? Is there any time or scenario offscreen where Fain and Asmo could have become acquainted in the past? I dunno.<br /><br />I agree about how he springs to mind when you remember the scene in hindsight and think of Asmo's terror and the swiftness of his death. But only in hindsight. Lanfear is still my number one for intuitively obvious and the character i envisage as most attractive to an author who enjoys plot twists, impossible bombshells, and resurrecting dead people (especially bad guys) left, right and centre.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 01:47:40
subject: <b>THIS MAKES ME MAD... in a good way</b>
body:
OK, so about a year ago I had submitted (twice) a theory that Lanfear did it... but it kept being shot down by the admins because they said people just would not agree with the idea that Lanfear could have made it out of Finn World in time.<br /><br />hah. I'm so glad you've actually gotten this one through. Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 02:09:16
subject: <b>Another good point</b>
body:
It came to my mind yesterday that the reason for Lanfear choosing Ash as her target may be quite simple. Lanfear had Ash shielded at this time, I think with reversed weaving (or whatever its called) stuff ,much like sammael had in Illian to protect himself, or the stuff Rand used i Tear. In some way Lanfear might feel the whereabouts of Asmodean when theyre close, seeing her own threads and pattern, thus making  it possible to find Ash without much problems, and with the defense he can put up, an easy target indeed.<br /><br />Lanfear might have wished for getting close to Rand, and the Finns might have granted it for at least a short period.<br />When she couldnt get to Rand or Aviendha, she simply went for number 3, Asmodean<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 10:08:33
subject:
<b>Wow, what a discussion! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Although Columbo didn't solve any of the obvious problems with Lanfear, a few additional points against a channeler being the killer (and thus for Slayer).<br /><br />No channeler could know that Asmo would enter the door, it was by chance. <br />Therefore a channeler killer had to be surprised as well and tried to kill everybody who entered. <br /><br />That would mean the murder of Asmo in this scene was absolutely coincidental, if the killer wanted to kill him (then it was even more unbelieveable luck that the victim came to the killer) or not (then what did the killer want in the palace?). <br />That's very hard to believe. <br /><br />Another point is that we must conclude that the killer was already prepared (it was too fast); that means the killer had at least already taken the OP or the TP, so that Asmo could do nothing but be shocked. <br /><br />Against the TP speaks that you only take the TP if you want to channel, it's too addictive and dangerous. <br />How could the killer know that he/she had to use the TP in the next moment?<br /><br />If it was the OP, the person had to disguise it and the weave, so that no one sees or feels it (and indeed no one felt the OP).<br /><br />But then it makes absolutely no sense that the person had disguised the OP but not his/her face and appearance. <br />The face was not disguised because Asmo recognized his killer and you would not drop the mask for only one moment if you have to act fast &amp; kill Asmo directly. <br /><br />We know that Forsaken are quite striking people, it could have happened that Rand or Asmo sees one of them in the palace without the knowledge of this person, so a MoM had been necessary.<br /><br />It was also possible that more than only one person enters the room. <br />How could a channeler killer know that Asmo was the only person who enters? Had the person killed everybody who followed Asmo or entered before him?<br />No, it indiactes that the person only wanted to kill Asmo, waited until he was alone and then killed him without any witnesses (as Slayer can do as we see in his several other murders).  <br /><br />It's also not clear why a channeler had to kill Asmo such fast. <br />A channeler could have bound Asmo or use Compulsion and later kill him (see e.g. Graendal in PoD, ch.12 with Moghedien and Cyndane). <br />Especially Lanfear had probably rather tortured him a bit if she really was such angry about him.<br />On the other hand, Slayer had to act very quickly because otherwise Asmo had used the OP against him.<br /><br />Also these points speaks against any channeler being the killer and for Slayer. <br />


created: 2004-01-07 11:00:17
subject: <b>OK I'm tired of the Slayer idea</b>
body:
he didn't do it. let me explain.<br /><br />i'm going to throw out the &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; quote. its obviously become a point of contention whether RJ meant that as a clue, or as a way to make us squirm. however, jordan's been quoted as saying that all the clues we need are in tFoH and later in LoC and CoS. i'm going to go with these because while i feel that jordan may love to antagonize us, i don't think he'd outright lie to us like that.<br /><br />so if the answer is necessarily only up to CoS, then it can't be slayer. why? BECAUSE WE DON'T FIND OUT HE CAN TRAVEL PHYSICALLY IN AND OUT OF T'A'R UNTIL WINTER'S HEART!<br /><br />go back and read tSR (sorry i don't have quotes, i loaned my book to my girlfriend, and its taking her forever) it never states slayer can move physically into and out of T'A'R.  matter of fact, after perrin wounds slayer in T'A'R with an arrow, slayer vanishes. perrin wakes soon after and learns that luc was seen leaving the place he was sleeping, wounded(correct me if i have any of the major plot points wrong, please). slayer going to sleep in a place, entering T'A'R, then waking in the same place points one in the direction that he was a dreamer (why would he travel back to emond's field, then ride off for aid, when he could go to a trolloc camp right off the bat and get help?). the fact that he was wounded is also moot; we've seen examples of people wounded in dreams who wake with them too (verin, perrin). obviously we know that the idea that slayer is a dreamer is wrong after WH, but the point is, we can't use that piece of knowledge until we read WH, which is 2 books too late. the fact that slayer is unable to enter and leave T'A'R physically is inadmissable.<br /><br />once you take away the idea that slayer can't use T'A'R the way he does to kill asmo, he suddenly becomes out of the question; how can you build a theory about him if you suddenly take away his opportunity?<br /><br />i'm still not sure who killed asmo, but i do know it wasn't slayer.


created: 2004-01-07 11:10:08
subject: <b>No StormRider, we knew that Slayer was in the flesh in TAR</b>
body:
Hopper clearly says it to Perrin in TSR.<br /><br />Besides we knew since TSR that you lose your humanity if you enter TAR; Slayer has an unhuman scent.<br /><br />We saw in TDR (Ishy-Rand battle) and TFoH (Rhavin-Rand battle) that people who can go to TAR in the flesh, can enter and leave where they want.<br /><br />The only thing we did not know until WH was <i> why </i> Slayer can do that. But that was not necessary, we could figure it.<br /><br />The clues for Slayer in LoC, ACoS and PoD were mainly that other possible killers were ruled out (plus e.g. that the DO apparently ordered the murder).


created: 2004-01-07 13:02:47
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
This theory made me realize that Moiraine killed Asmo.  She was not held or killed by the Finns.  She was released, maybe altered in appearance, maybe in a foreign land, but she was first granted at least one wish.


created: 2004-01-07 14:23:58
subject: <b>Just a sidenote</b>
body:
You did a great job of putting this theory together.  However, since it started w/ RJ's statement &quot;It should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer&quot; I'd like to make a comment about that phrase.  I had a professor in college (who would be about the same age as RJ) for several of my engineering courses.  Anytime we got to something that was too difficult for undergraduate studies where he would just give us the answer (in other words we went from point A to point Z without the difficult hassle of B through Y) he would say &quot;It should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer that such and such is true.&quot;  My point it he used the EXACT same phrase as RJ as a way to facetiously say that something was really hard to explain but we should accept it as true.  Since they are from about the same generation, I think there may be some reason that phrase has that meaning to guys their age.  Consequently, it might not be safe to assume that RJ meant that we should be able to easily figure out Asmo's killer... he may have meant that we can't!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 16:01:46
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
Ok, I haven't read all 111 posts, so I'm sorry if I repeat someone else's comment.  After I read your theory, I re-read the passage, and it does seem obvious that Lanfear is the killer.  Like a horror movie, where the bad guy keeps coming back.<br />So the next question is, what did she wish for?<br />My guesses are:<br />1) &quot;I want to kill Rand al'Thor&quot; (I'm guessing the alien people wouldn't allow that, rules and whatnot) so her next wish is <br />2) &quot;I want to kill Asmodean&quot;- Done (It would explain why Asmo was killed the same day she fell in the ter'angreal- because she wasn't done with them yet)<br />3) &quot;I want to leave this place&quot; - Done<br />But perhaps she forgot to set a price (It HAS been a couple thousand years)?  Maybe the Finn's decided the price would be her body and/or power? Just a thought.


created: 2004-01-07 16:14:51
subject: <b>All things said and done...</b>
body:
I like your theory.  It's been a while since I read a theory that was well constructed.  I 100% disagree with you, and there wasn't actually much evidence, as there was an analysis of RJ's comment and then conjecture of what could have happened.<br /><br />We know that Asmodean died quickly.<br />We know that Asmodean's body was never found.<br />We know that Asmodean recognized his killer and feared them.<br /><br />We know these things from the book itself.  From RJ we have the phrase that we should be able to figure it out from what we know in book5 and before.<br /><br />I don't think that it's Lanfear for a few reasons.  Why kill Asmodean?  Why kill his teacher?  To take away an advantage?  Asmodean is so weak (because of her doing) that he's hardly able to teach Rand anything.  Rand is doing great on his own, and is using Asmodean as an informant more than anything else.  Instead, Lanfear is in a jeleous rage.  She's pissed about not being told about Rand and Aviendha.  She killed Kadere over it...he's just some filthy human...not even a channeler.<br /><br />Lanfear is in a jeleous rage...she's going to go after those that are the object of her rage...Rand and his women.  Or baring that...she will attack what would make Rand hurt...loosing Asmodean won't hurt Rand as much as taking out a Maiden of the Spear, or a friend.  Also, there is the whole &quot;when did Lanfear die...get new body&quot; thing.  If she was already in the Cyndane body...then Asmodean wouldn't have recognized her.  If she was in her Lanfear body, then how did she get out?  A wish?  And then how did she die and then get put into Cyndane?<br /><br />So who do I go with?  Graendal.  She is the most uncomplicated choice.  She knew that Asmodean was with Rand and Company.  She has the ability to take someone out, and to dispose of the body.  We know that Graendal and Rhavin were in bed with Sammael...and the whole point of the trap is to get Rand to attack Sammael....well Rand goes the other way and goes after Rhavin.  We know that Graendal is planning with Rhavin.  It's not unreasonable to think that she's in the palace.  Rand doens't see her...and doesn't really care if he did see her since it was Saidin that took out Aviendha and Mat.<br /><br />To make a long story short, what's Graendal's motive?  She didn't have any.  Asmodean on his way to find wine (and pet peeve...he was <b> not </b> in the kitchens or even a pantry) stumbled upon Graendal.  She is startled and scared...and she kills him without even thinking about it.  She doesn't tell anyone because such information is potentially damaging to her.<br /><br />She just let's sleeping dogs lay.<br /><br />Jeordam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 16:40:15
subject: <b>Theory pending</b>
body:
Jeordam, I just submited a theory that adresses your concerns.  If you could post the theory, I would more than glady discuss it with you.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments!  I can't wait to carry on this discussion!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 17:41:44
subject: <b>Jeardam,</b>
body:
Jeardam, Phire explained how Lanfear could have gotten free and needed a new body later.  Whether she killed Asmodean or not, I don't think she was killed by the Finns.


created: 2004-01-07 17:54:57
subject: <b>I want to make an apology</b>
body:
I said that I would feel completely ok with calling any of you liars if you suggested that you thought Lanfear was coming back.  And i could not have been any more wrong.  I at the time was the worse kind of kid to hand a series to.  I would rather read what was available than wait around looking for the first book and unlike most of you my introduction to the WOT was in fact Fires of Heaven.  I did not know of the repetitive dying of Ba'alzmon aka Ishy.  I did not have a clue what was on the other side of that door and I had no idea about the history of Lanfear and Rand/Lews Therin.  Knowing those things perhaps my first impression would have been a little more than the complete bafflement I enjoyed on my first read.  All I knew was that two witches fell through a door that drove a man crazy, destroyed it in a blazing inferno and a man who was significantly attached to one woman said she was dead, so both were.  Unfortunately that is the power of first impressions, a tendancy to ignore new information.  So my sincere apologies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 19:25:22
subject: <b>Are we reading too much into this?</b>
body:
Just for the sake of my foolishness, indulge me. What if, being clever with his phrasing as he normally is, RJ does not mean that we should figure out from the <i>inside</i> of the book who killed Asmo from his &quot;Intuitively obvious&quot; quote. What if he's just being cruel and means that he was the one who killed Asmo, he's the Creator afterall.<br /><br />Huh? What about that? What if he's just being mean? What if he's the one who it's so obvious that killed Asmodean? What if the killer in the books is hidden behind some sickeningly complex series of vague, all-but-non-existant clues? <br />Sorry. I just want to contribute something, and I haven't read the series in a while.<br /><br />Keep up the good discussion everyone!


created: 2004-01-07 23:16:37
subject: <b>LOL Jaric Mondoran</b>
body:
That's basically what I was trying to say. At this point, I am thinking even if RJ did have a killer in his head at the time, he is just toying with us now. He is remaking history, and can do so, because he was so vague in the first place. He puts down clues and then counters them. It's just a game now.<br /><br />You know how he is famous for saying in interviews that &quot;not every little plot element will be taken care of in the end&quot;? Well, THIS HERE is going to be one of them folks! &quot;Who killed Asmodean?&quot; will forever be a mystery. He even said that bit about the plot in his latest chat. We ain&#8217;t never gonna knows!<br /><br />Not so much that we weren't supposed to be able to figure it out when it happened, but because RJ just loves to mess with us. This developed by all our asking, not so much by his initial doing. By all rights, I probably would get a kick out of messing with my fan base like this too... If I were a major author with a legion of fans making theories about my work that is&#8230;<br /><br />I put my money on this never getting resolved. Even after the series is over, he won't say. You have it down pat Jaric, RJ killed Asmo, nuf said. <br /><br />HAR!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 23:43:31
subject: <b>Man oh man, is THIS a big one!</b>
body:
Etzel, you weren't kidding! What a convo! Lets keep this up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 00:48:35
subject: <b>If I had a braid...</b>
body:
Etzel, I do not want to be rude, but it is clear that you are not bothering to read ANYone else&#8217;s posts. Hence, you are reiterating all the same points even though they have been explained or disproved by others countless times.<br /><br />Wildman, what you&#8217;re saying has nothing to do with this. RJ hasn&#8217;t GIVEN us an answer, where as your lecturer would present you with A and Z. And so WHAT if he&#8217;s the same age as RJ?? Come back to planet Earth, it&#8217;s quite nice here, honestly, you might like it. We've had this discussion, and while RJ might be an ass, we're thinking he sounded serious about this one. Listen to the audio interviews.<br /><br />Jeordam. Like Etzel, you are asking questions that have been answered by other people like a gazillion times. I.E. regarding why go for Asmo and not Rand or Avi, and when did Lanfear become Cyndane. And by the way, if Graendal had no motive but just stumbled upon Asmo&#8230; well how is that intuitively obvious? How is it intuitively obvious to the casual observer that Graendal was in THAT part of the world, was creeping around in just the right place at just the right time to bump into Asmo and get spooked and quickly kill him INSTANTLY upon sight and dispose of his body? What about all her detailed Pov&#8217;s since that time? Has she speculated at all regarding being a witness to Rahvin&#8217;s demise or even Asmo&#8217;s?<br /><br />Marvin the Wise&#8230; when did Phire explain any of that? He&#8217;s rooting for Fain isn&#8217;t he?<br /><br />I&#8217;m going to re-read the book. That&#8217;s it. FoH only. Maybe I should read all five, but I haven&#8217;t the stomach for the sniffing and lace and endless descriptions. So. I&#8217;ll have a shot at FoH. Too many things I don&#8217;t remember at all. Yet, even so, I haven&#8217;t heard a SINGLE coherent, substantial and valid counter-argument from ANY of you&#8230; either against Lanfear or in favour of any other suspect.<br /><br /> Hurry up Columbo. Or maybe you shouldn&#8217;t bother&#8230; they can&#8217;t seem to be bothered to read before they respond anyway. Yes. I know. I&#8217;m being obnoxious. I don&#8217;t care. I just wish people would read properly first before they come out with the same old tired points. I know it&#8217;s a huge blackboard, and I for one am making very long posts, but there&#8217;s no point in responding if you aren&#8217;t going to make the effort to read first.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 00:58:04
subject: <b>Apologies...</b>
body:
To Marvin and Phire... it was Phire who gave the Scenario for how it might have happened. Phire, hope you're getting your theory on Fain together, i'd like to read it. As i said, i'm planning on reading FoH again, so i might be able to answer a few of my own questions regarding Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 02:52:35
subject: <b>Two things</b>
body:
To Green Gaidin,<br /><br /><b> Etzel, you weren't kidding! What a convo! Lets keep this up </b><br /><br />Yub.<br /><br />I don't know why, but somehow Columbo &amp; you can really increase discussion (*also looks at &quot;Four in the door&quot; with 179 replies* ).<br />Nice! <br /><br /><br />To Iram_k,<br /><br /><b> Etzel, I do not want to be rude, but it is clear that you are not bothering to read ANYone else&#8217;s posts. Hence, you are reiterating all the same points even though they have been explained or disproved by others countless times. </b><br /><br />I read the replies (even yours), show or tell me where any of my points (and they are actually different) is disproven or reasonable explained.


created: 2004-01-08 06:47:43
subject: <b>Etzel...</b>
body:
I'm not arguing against Slayer. I'm arguing for Lanfear. I can't rule Slayer out completely, but i think Lanfear is by far more likely than him. <br /><br />Please read my first two posts on this blackboard, stating how and why Lanfear could have done it. You argue against it being a channeller for several reasons. I've given several reasons, several times, for how Lanfear could have accomplished all this. And why. <br /><br />And i've stated why she went for Asmo instead of Avi or Rand. And i've given a rough outline of what happened to Lanfear after she fell through the doorway. Others have actually given much more detailed scenarios of what may have happened when she fell through. <br /><br />We have also gone on at length regarding RJ's style of writing and how Lanfear fits into this. We have discussed how Lanfear would have bargained for wishes, how she would most likely use them, what her state of mind and priorities would be at the time.<br /><br /> Columbo has pointed out that Lanfear is knowledgable about the Finns. And you can't wish to just leave, you have to bargain with them and pay the price. Moiraine will not have been as knowledgeable about all this as Lanfear. Mat was a Tav, and so barely escaped and he DID die, though Rand resuscitated him. Even Lanfear will have had a rough time with the Finns before she was released. <br /><br />Basically, the circumstances are not yet solid and still need to be fleshed out. They probably will be by the time Moiraine comes back. But at the time of Asmo's death, while we didn't have all the answers, it was like an alarm bell went off telling us Lanfear (and hence possibly Moiraine) wasn't dead. We knew Mo wouldn't die like that anyway, so it kinda works vice versa too. It was intuitively obvious. Like, when you know the bad guy is about to pop out behind the girl in a horror movie.<br /><br />The FS NEVER DIE unless we see them BF'd. They ALWAYS make at least one come back, with the odd exception. Please just read my posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 07:24:28
subject: <b>To Iram</b>
body:
Iram-<br /><br />RJ said he had an Engineering professor who used the same phrase (intuitively obvious).  Thus, Wildman's comment is not only relevant, but it reinforces what RJ said in the first place!<br /><br />Also, can't wait to see what Columbo's new theory is.  If it doesn't get posted, do you think he'll put it on this BB?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 07:24:53
subject: <b>Hey, I have a question.</b>
body:
My question is this: does any one who thinks that Asmodean was not killed by balefire have a theory as to why the Dark One didn't bring him back?  I know that some think he can't because his connection was broken.  Are there any other ideas?  Or is the fact that he's gone, really mean he's gone?


created: 2004-01-08 08:33:22
subject: <b>Marvin the Wise</b>
body:
Did you read the DO's comments in LoC prologue?  He said Asmodean died the final death <i>in his betrayal</i>.  The DO feels that Asmodean betrayed him, and thus did not bring him back.  The DO hasn't thought anyone else betrayed him.  Even Lanfear.  His anger at Lanfear (and thus &quot;Last Chance&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> was due to her doing things on her own, not betraying her.<br /><br />Personally the fact that the DO himself mentions betrayal shows that he chose not to bring him back and thus Asmodean probably wasn't killed by BF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 09:21:21
subject: <b>DO's limitations highlighted in that statement...</b>
body:
I always thought that when the DO made that statement he was glossing over the fact, or perhaps hinting at it actually, that he COULDN'T bring Asmo back BCZ of his betrayal, i.e. the severed black cords.<br /><br />The instant those chords were severed, Asmo lost his immortality, i.e. his chance to be resurrected, as well as his protection from the taint and his connection with the DO. The DO lost possession of Asmo's soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 10:15:23
subject: <b>To Iram (and Soulblinder)</b>
body:
Iram:<br />I think you might be missing out on what I'm trying to say.  I know RJ hasn't given us a clear explanation... that's the point!  When that phrase was used in my class, no clear explanation was ever given!  It was a catchphrase that meant &quot;There's no way you are gonna figure this out for yourself!&quot;  It is significant that they are the same age because here, on planet earth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, phrases have different meanings for different generations of people. Some meanings are not at all related to the literal meaning of the component words.  The whole has absolutely nothing to do with the sum of the parts. For example, to someone alive today if I said &quot;That person is gay&quot; I would mean that someone is homosexual.  However, 100 years ago that would have meant that someone was happy.  While that is an extreme example, the &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; phrase may be a more subtle example of the meaning of a phrase having nothing to do with it's literal interpretation.  I realize that you might not like the consequence of this line of reasoning because it would mean you can't claim that your favorite theory is absolutely right, but hey, life here on earth isn't always fair.<br /><br />Soulblinder:<br />I actually had no idea that RJ had an engineering professor who ever used that phrase.  However, the fact that he did leads me to believe he really may have been using that phrase in the manner I'm talking about.<br /><br />All:<br />While I am suggesting that the solution to Asmo's killer may not be &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; in the literal sense, I'm by no means suggesting that it is impossible to figure it out.  So theorize away!  I thought Columbo's theory was very well put together, and at this point seems pretty valid, I just thought I'd give my two cents about one of his initial assumptions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 11:06:43
subject: <b>I never thought he was restricted to the cords</b>
body:
In EotW we saw cords of light connecting the Eye to both Rand and Aginor.  I always thought the cords were just a conduit for the true power and protection from the taint.<br /><br />After the Kari al'Thor thing in EotW (she at least seemed to be real after her thankful look) I figured he could grab anyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 11:23:59
subject: <b>Iram_k</b>
body:
<b> I'm not arguing against Slayer. I'm arguing for Lanfear. I can't rule Slayer out completely, but i think Lanfear is by far more likely than him. </b><br /><br />There is already a difference since I can rule out Lanfear. <br /><br />Right, she would certainly frighten Asmo and has a good motive. <br />But Lanfear has an even better alibi, she was either imprisoned or dead!<br /><br /><b> Please read my first two posts on this blackboard, stating how and why Lanfear could have done it. You argue against it being a channeller for several reasons. I've given several reasons, several times, for how Lanfear could have accomplished all this. And why. </b><br /><br />That the Eelfinn granted Lanfear any wishes (and apparently not Moiraine who studied the Finn) is contrary to Cyndane's thought in WH. <br /><br />I copy the answer I already gave to Soulblinder from the blackboard of my theory &quot;Slayer vs. Graendal&quot;:<br /><br />We know that Lanfear &amp; Moiraine entered the realm of the Eelfinn at the same time through the same doorway which was destroyed.<br /><br />So the Eelfinn knew that they were responsible for the destruction, therefore probably already angry and surely not in the mood to grant them any wishes.<br /><br />This is supported by Cyndane's statement in WH that Alivia &quot;was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her.&quot; <br />When Mat went through this doorway he never met any Aelfinn, only Eelfinn.<br /><br />That shows that Lanfear not wished and then left the realm of the Eelfinn but something else happened in which both Finn races were involved.<br /><br />Cyndane says she was held and that indicates that she was a prisoner, certainly for some time. <br /><br />We know that the Finn can somehow consume human's sensations, maybe this was one reason to imprison her. <br />The same happened to Moiraine who most people think is still in Finnland and will be rescued by Thom; she also could not wish a return to Randland, why Lanfear then?<br /><br />Cyndane's thought in WH also indicates that she was Lanfear before the Finn held her, but either in or after her capture something happened to her and so she got a new body and her OP strength was reduced.<br />Most likely Lanfear was killed or died in another way. <br />Then the DO put her soul into a new body, named her Cyndane (&quot;Last Chance&quot; ) and gave her to Moridin who used his mind-trap on her (that's also what Demandred thinks in WH).<br /><br />Finally, if you read my theory &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot; you will find out that I believe that you can't wish everything you want and the Eelfinn won't grant everything. There are certain rules. <br />Therefore I already think that the Eelfinn had not granted your third and probably not the second wish you suggest (if you say that Lanfear wishes to travel back in time).  <br /><br /><b> And i've stated why she went for Asmo instead of Avi or Rand. And i've given a rough outline of what happened to Lanfear after she fell through the doorway. Others have actually given much more detailed scenarios of what may have happened when she fell through. </b><br /><br />It all depends on wether Lanfear had the right to wish something. <br />There is no likely scenario that the Eelfinn granted Lanfear any wishes as some other people and I pointed out.<br /><br /><b> We have also gone on at length regarding RJ's style of writing and how Lanfear fits into this. We have discussed how Lanfear would have bargained for wishes, how she would most likely use them, what her state of mind and priorities would be at the time. </b><br /><br />Look above for the wishes.<br /><br />Maybe you could say again why you think Lanfeardunnit fits RJ's writing style and Slayerdunnit not.<br />I don't see it. <br /><br />I already said in previous comment's enough to Columbo's &quot;obvious&quot; interpretation.<br /><br /><b> Columbo has pointed out that Lanfear is knowledgable about the Finns. And you can't wish to just leave, you have to bargain with them and pay the price. Moiraine will not have been as knowledgeable about all this as Lanfear. Mat was a Tav, and so barely escaped and he DID die, though Rand resuscitated him. Even Lanfear will have had a rough time with the Finns before she was released. </b><br /><br />You say on the one hand that Lanfear has great knowledge of the Finn, on the other hand that she became Cyndane because she failed in the bargain. <br />That's a contradiction in terms.<br /><br />Also you indicate that Moiraine died in Finnland what almost no one thinks for some very good reasons.<br /><br /><b> Basically, the circumstances are not yet solid and still need to be fleshed out. They probably will be by the time Moiraine comes back. But at the time of Asmo's death, while we didn't have all the answers, it was like an alarm bell went off telling us Lanfear (and hence possibly Moiraine) wasn't dead. We knew Mo wouldn't die like that anyway, so it kinda works vice versa too. It was intuitively obvious. Like, when you know the bad guy is about to pop out behind the girl in a horror movie. </b><br /><br />Read the various comments on this blackboard. <br />Maybe you will understand then what RJ's &quot;obvious&quot; term really means. <br /><br /><b> The FS NEVER DIE unless we see them BF'd. They ALWAYS make at least one come back, with the odd exception. Please just read my posts. </b><br /><br />Sure the Forsaken come back because the DO resurrects them. <br />But in LoC he states that he surely won't bring back the traitor Asmo (after he ordered to kill him). That doesn't mean balefire.<br /><br />Besides, even if the killer was a channeler it's very unlikely that he/she used balefire.


created: 2004-01-08 11:56:26
subject: <b>Balefire</b>
body:
I've always thought that it's pretty obvious that Asmodean was killed by balefire. As obvious as RJ can make it without writing it plainly so. The matter in which Asmodean's death is described is extremely simular to the way Be'lal died from Moiraine's balefire.<br /><br /> The balefire also easily explains the lack of body and Asmodean's not coming up. Otherwise why would've the DO given another chance to Moghedien who also failed and was forced to betray him, and not give such chance to Asmodean?<br /><br /> And I also have the idea that when Granedal killed Asmo, she didn't draw all her strenght to make a balefire. She needed speed and balefire kills instantly no matter how strong is the Power used to make it, so it's reasonable to assume that she hit Asmo with only a portion of her full Power. That would also help explaining why that wasn't sensed by Aviendha.<br /><br /> Etzel, I really like your explanation why it was impossible for Lanfear to have come back in time from Finnland to kill Asmo. Let's see how will Columbo respond to that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 13:22:55
subject: <b>Good theory Columbo</b>
body:
I also remember a conversation Lanfear having with Rand about providing him with a teacher and eliminating the teacher when the need was no longer necessary (you may have mentioned this here or in reloaded, sorry if I missed it).<br /><br />She is obvious.  Who's the last person Asmo would expect?<br /><br />Gena-how could they turn down your theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 00:44:29
subject: <b>This is Great!</b>
body:
I want to say first that this is an awesome debate going on right now.  I am really enjoying it.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, wasn't Ishy's (as Ba'alzamon) black cord severed by Rand prior to his death/resurrection?<br /><br />Also, I posted a fairly lengthy reply to Etzel on his theory &quot;Slayer Vs. Graendal&quot;.  Due to it's length I wont repost it here, but I think I answered his arguements fairly well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 14:12:49
subject: <b>Truthfully,</b>
body:
I read about the first 50 or so post then skipped to the bottom because there is at least one thing about the  Lanfear and Slayer theories that bother me.  Slayer first.  I have always assumed, no jokes please, that Assy was killed with balefire.  No body, no blood, he just dies and disappears.  As far as I know, Slayer cannot use balefire, right?  I mean, let's look at it from his point of view, he kills Assy with a sword, there is blood everywhere, and he has a body he has to deal with.  What does he do?  Get a mop and some Windex and start cleaning?  Can't see it happening.  As for the body, if he can enter TAR at will, can he drag the body in with him?  Possible, but not likely.  Now for the psycho chick.  How in the hell does she get back to the real world, use balefire to kill Assy, and then get herself killed only to be reborn in a new body with less power?  Uhhhhh, a meltdown?  Please, she's been a foresaken forever.  All of a sudden she slips and burns herself to a crisp?  Again, not likely.  Now I'm sure I missed alot of explainations from entry 51-the most recent.  But these two small details stick in my craw.  I'm still not really sure whom erased Assy, but I have to think that it was someone with enough power to generate balefire.  I don't believe Slayer has the gift, but at the same time, Lanfear if she was discovered by accident and had to waste Assy, still would have at least attempted to get Rand and Avi while she was there.  That's another glaring point against the psycho.  It seems to me that the person was hiding, what else do you do in a food pantry by yourself, when Assy just so happened to open the door and they fried him to keep thier presence a secret.  I think this leans more to the Grendal theory, and I must say, that it looks most likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">lowmanbuys<br />And I'm tired of buying! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What would men be without women?<br />Scarce sir, mighty scarce. -Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 19:18:11
subject: <b>How did he know</b>
body:
You said that he knew who it was. Why would he know Cydane? Noone else did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have absolutely no idea what's going on.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 22:42:45
subject: <b>After FINALLY retrieving my copy of tSR...</b>
body:
...i see that my post from a couple of days ago was completely, absolutely, totally 100% WRONG. man did i drop the ball. also, after rereading my post, i realized that i came off as a total, condescending know-it-all assclown. i apologize to anyone who wasted precious seconds of their life reading that post; i'm working on the way to return your seconds of life as we speak (it may take a while; be patient). thank you.


created: 2004-01-21 08:35:50
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
thank you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 19:21:21
subject: <b>Just a thought.</b>
body:
When did Lanfear die to need a new body? I don't think the Do would have killed her just to give her a new body.<br /><br />Just my 2 coppers<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-02 16:00:14
subject: <b>Ashandari...</b>
body:
...Cyndane means = Last Chance, it suggests that the one that gave her a last chance, was also the one that took away her previous chance.  The DO.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-23 00:09:55
subject: <b>not necessarily...</b>
body:
If the Finns gave her a new body, it stands to reason that she got a new name from the DO.  Remember, Lanfear was the only Forsaken to choose her name in the AOL, all the others were &quot;given&quot; to them by the light (i.e. Sammael = Destroyer of Hope.)  Besides, if the DO gave her a new name, she becomes completely incognito.  Remember, Demandred thought Cyndane was Lanfear reborn, until Mesaana told him she was weaker than Lanfear was.  Everyone (except Moridin, of course) is in the dark as to who the heck Cyndane really is.


created: 2004-01-08 12:38:54
subject: <b>I still don't think it's Lanfear.</b>
body:
I like this version of the theory better than the original, but what still doesn't change is that you are interpreting what you want out of the phrases.  You make a great case for Lanfear, but if we were in court, and she was on trial, I would say &quot;Not Guilty&quot;, because there is certainly reasonable doubt.  Your entire theory of her hinges on the fact that she has to be able to wish her way out of Finn-land, get Asmodean, and then get dragged back, ends up dead, then put into Cyndane.  It's possible, but it has some major jumps.<br /><br />Yes...after reading your motive of her killing Asmodean as Damage Control (which I totaly understand and think likely), I agree with you on that.  It does fit in with who she is.  <br /><br />My biggest problem is this.  Your interpretation of &quot;You? No!&quot;<br /><br />You automatically have jumped to seeing that &quot;You?&quot; as Asmodean seeing the last person he would expect, being Lanfear.  I don't see it like that.  I see him saying that as he's seeing someone he did't expect.  If it was Lanfear, he would immediately have jumped to fear and shock...more of a &quot;You!?!&quot; (it's hard to type this out and not say it).  He stumbled on someone that he knew...a fellow Chosen.  They are the only ones to have the ability to take him out, and also someone that he would fear.<br /><br />Think of it this way.  The Battle is over...Asmodean needs a drink.  He leaves Aviendha and Mat by the fountain, and goes on the search for some good wine.  He turns the corner, and stumbles on someone that he knows.  &quot;You?&quot;  He's curious as to why this person is there, not necessarily shocked about seeing that person.  &quot;No!&quot;  Asmodean knows that his death is imminant...he's probably got the tinglies from someone embracing saidar.<br /><br />To sum it all up...don't necessarily jump to that &quot;You?&quot; as meaning Lanfear because it's the last person that he expected...it very well may be just someone that he knows, that he's curious as to why they are in the palace.<br /><br />Jeordam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 12:52:05
subject: <b>Very Nice...</b>
body:
However I don't see this changing much. The motive part is the strength of your argument, and best addition in 'Reloaded'. However, all other evidence remains circumstantial at best. Of course, most evidence used for any suspect is circumstantial at best as well. I forsee the same arguments as given for the Homicide, without much progress.<br /><br />But the debate is great and keeps me coming back, even if I prefer the gallery.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 13:21:11
subject: <b>LOL Columbo</b>
body:
I think you get my award for the best theory structure, the best creative theory format, and most interesting ways of making the Theorypost interesting again.  Good work!  (I personally have to wait till NS)<br /><br />I am really Matrimony Cauthon (killed my old SN)  <br /><br />I'll post a review of the theory shortly.  I just loved your intros so much that I was compelled to reply before I even finished the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 13:21:20
subject: <b>Ah, the next try...</b>
body:
At least you apparently realized that your original theory was full of holes and not convincing at all... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Let's see.<br /><br />First, Asmo was surely not killed with balefire. <br />We know that the Forsaken refuse to use balefire if it is not absolutely needed. They saw what balefire causes in the AoL (see e.g. Demandred's POV in LoC).<br /><br />It was absolutely not necessary to use balefire against Asmo in his current state. <br />He could be killed with every other, less catastrophic weave. <br /><br />Or Lanfear could use Compulsion and take him with her, maybe kill him later, what would also make more sense. <br />Especially if we consider that balefire can be sensed by other channelers.<br />And other people, even Rand could follow Asmo into the room as well.<br /><br />Also I don't know if it can be right that &quot;the word still hung in the air&quot;, when the word was actually never spoken if you use balefire.<br /><br /><br />Your other points:<br /><br /><b> Does passing through one of the two known doorways into Finnland result in death? The answer is no, it doesn&#8217;t. As the reader we have an advantage, we get to see the same thing through several sets of eyes at times during the story (Robert Jordan&#8217;s fictional characters) What did we learn prior to Lanfear&#8217;s passing through the doorway? We learnt that even individuals with little or no experience can return home from Finnland with more than they entered with. Fact is, not one of Robert Jordan&#8217;s characters has died as a result of passing through the doorway. We would consider Lanfear to be an expert in dealing with the Finns. The age she&#8217;s from, Age of Legends, as well as the fact that she studied other worlds at that time. </b><br /><br />Lanfear did not die when she fell into the doorway, right. But we can conclude that she burnt out. <br />Therefore the Finn could capture her, because a strong channeler can keep the Finn in check with fire (see Rand in TSR). <br /><br /><b> From Cyndane&#8217;s point of view we learn that either doorway takes you to, and returns you from Finnland, one door Aelfinn&#8217;s home, one door Eelfinn&#8217;s home, and both homes in Finnland. We have a remaining door that functions in Tear, and thus we have an exit. <br />This leaves Lanfear two options;<br />Lanfear concludes her business with the Finns and returns via the doorway in Tear.<br />Lanfear is granted a wish from the Eelfinn that allows her to return to take care of urgent business. </b><br /><br />The problem is that she was burnt out and thus the Finn could capture her. <br />Otherwise she could have just walked, a fire sword in her hand, to the next doorway.<br /><br /><b> It&#8217;s obvious from Cyndane&#8217;s point of view in Winter&#8217;s Heart that she was held for a time by the Finns. At this point we have come to the realization that Lanfear survived Moraine and has had the chance to regain her composure. As well Lanfear has a pretty good idea of what is about to transpire back in Randland. She is anxious to return, minutes would feel like hours, hours would feel like days and days like weeks. Lanfear knows full well that every second lost in Finnland is a second lost in Randland (not the case but I hope you get my drift) and she can&#8217;t afford to be away for long. She will have some explaining to do once she returns to Randland and confronts the DO. How much explaining will Lanfear have to do? That will depend on how events unfold in Randland. The sooner she can return the better. Why? Because if another forsaken e.g. Greandal should get her hands on Asmodean and find out the truth about his relationship with Rand, Lanfear is finished. Rand, Asmodean and Lanfear new the truth about Lanfear&#8217;s designs for her and Lews Therin. If Asmodean fell into the wrong hands, he would reveal all and this would seal Lanfear&#8217;s fate, not to mention Lanfear now wants Rand dead, which is another reason to put Asmodean out of his misery. At this point Lanfear&#8217;s only chance at survival is to eliminate Asmodean before the others get to him, then she can return and put her spin on what happened. Without Asmodean to dispute her story, she&#8217;s greatly increased her chances of survival. Damage control, clean up on isle #4. If Lanfear succeeds, Asmodean will forever be remembered for being a traitor whom Lanfear took care of for the DO and that&#8217;s how Lanfear wants it remembered, as well as the fact that she killed the traitor. Asmodean was Lanfear&#8217;s top priority! If Lanfear could eliminate Asmodean quickly, her chances at survival would increase significantly. Lanfear would have an idea of how time worked in Finnland in relation to Randland; this knowledge would serve her well. </b><br /><br />You only say why Lanfear wanted to kill Asmo but not why she didn't want to kill Aviendha or Rand, contrary to her hate a few hours ago. <br /><br /><b> Looking around she realizes that she can&#8217;t return the way she came. She will have to bargain with the Eelfinn. They would grant her the means and opportunity but what at what price? Cyndane&#8217;s quote from Winter&#8217;s Heart reveals the price she had to pay. If we consider Lanfear&#8217;s profile, then we realize just how important status and power mean to her. A reduction in the amount of one power she can hold would drastically affect her standing and influence among her peers. A big price they would demand indeed. </b><br /><br />The Eelfinn had no reasons to fulfill any of Lanfear's wishes but many not to do it, as I pointed out on the blackboard of the original theory.<br /><br /><b> Eelfinn grant her means to return and the opportunity to kill Asmodean. Eelfinn send her back and put her in Asmodean&#8217;s path. She&#8217;s Johnny on the spot. Asmodean recognizes her and then she kills Asmodean with balefire to guarantee that he doesn&#8217;t ever return and tell his story. When she&#8217;s brought back to Finnland the Eelfinn find out she&#8217;s a darkfriend (Moraine)and imprison her there. Lanfear pays a big price not only because she is reduced in power but also because they hold her in Finnland as a prisoner. Loss of power and time = BIG PRICE. At this point Lanfear, in an attempt to escape dies. She is later put in a new body and given the name Cyndane which means last chance. Upon questioning she puts her spin on events, maybe blaming Asmodean for what happened in Cairhien and Camealyn. Dirty despicable traitor he is. Asmodean is forever remembered as a traitor. Randland will remember that Lanfear failed, made a big mess, but was given another shot to achieve greatness as Cyndane. </b> <br /><br />It's comical that you say on the one hand that Lanfear is an expert in Finns but on the other hand messed up with the price and did not wish the right thing.<br /><br />By the way, what were the three things Lanfear wished in your view? The Eelfinn don't fulfill every wish. <br /><br />Why couldn't Moiraine wish anything? <br />I suspect that you believe that <i> she </i> is still a prisoner in Finnland as most people do.<br /><br /><br />All in all it's nice fan fiction you wrote us but sadly not based on much evidence. <br />It's just designed to fit with your original theory but even so unlikely in my view.


created: 2004-01-08 13:24:53
subject: <b>Columbo, great job, BUT</b>
body:
You still can't convince me that Lanfear would waste a wish to Eelfinn just to return and kill Asmo. She knows how big cost every wish has in Finnland. And what was the whole point of the &quot;Damage control&quot;? Noone apart from her knew Asmo had a shield on him, so it was more than likely than noone of the Forsaken would try to capture him, it''s just too hard to do it against a full strenght Forsaken. Also why would anyone believe Asmo's story about being forced to become traitor by Lanfear? Anyone in his position will be suspected of lying just to save his life. There's a small possibility that someone captures Asmo and then believes him, but it's just not woth the price for Lanfear IMO.<br /><br /> And don't forget Lanfear's desicions are more motivated by emotions usually than by logic. She was so furious to Rand and Aviendha by that time that if she was to ask a wish  from the Eelfinn, she would've asked to kill either Rand or Aviendha IMO. It's just not her style to cool down so quickly.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 13:43:13
subject: <b>Read the theory Columbo</b>
body:
I have to say....<br /><br />This is fantastic.  I've always avoided the Asmodean homicide.  In fact, I've only reread that passage once.  To me, it never held much interest, because I wanted to focus my efforts on things that I could actually solve.  <br /><br />Ciel the Baerlon Maid attempted to make a theory like it a couople years ago.  She was flamed like an eyeball in Ishamael's socket.<br /><br />For one, you gave a quote that showed that Baelfire was used.  I never noticed that before.  That all but eliminates Slayer, IMNSHO.  This quote right there, was worthy of another theory.<br /><br />For two, you gave the motive.  Why Asmodean over Aviendha?  Lanfear cares for power above all else--  Power above even jealously.  I think you are right in saying that Lanfear knew she would be in a pickle if Asmodean was not rubbed out.  Lanfear did not want to have to die a hundred deaths with the Great Lord.<br /><br />The Finns gave Lanfear a way into the palace without being detected.  Lanfear most likely inverted the weaves, so that Aviendha didn't notice them.<br /><br />Lanfear knew that Rand was now her enemy.  Another motive is that she didn't want to impart him with anymore knowledge.  He would become increasingly more dangerous.  Asmodean was top priority for a multiplicity of reasons.<br /><br />The question is, how can the finns transport Lanfear to a different point in space?  The answer is that Finnworld is obviously some kind of extension of Tel'aran'rhiod.  The Finns made a kind of gateway.  This is why no gateway was detected by any of the channelers in the palace.<br /><br />As to what happened to Lanfear after she returned to the Finns, no one knows.  That is the great mystery.<br /><br />I am sure we will learn more of that mystery as Lanfear reveals herself to Rand.  Rand is still unaware of her.  This actually makes a great future plot.  No wonder RJ has been so hush about the killer to the fans.  Graendal is not nearly as exciting, because Rand has no previous experience with her.<br /><br />I really liked how you said that Lanfear did die.  She obviously did.  Everywise she wouldn't be wearing a cou'souvra (sp) around her neck.<br /><br />But when she died is the real question.  It appears that she died after she bf'd Asmo.  Otherwise, Asmo would never have recognized her.<br /><br />The DO was aware of who killed Asmo for one reason, and one reason only.  This is because Lanfear died, and then the DO had exclusive access to her knowledge.<br /><br />The whole Graendal conversation was just another red herring of RJ trying to throw us off the trail.<br /><br />I, for one, think that Finnland is one of the most exciting aspects of the story.  I am burning to know what actually happened there.  I sure we will learn some of the events later.<br /><br />Columbo, congratulations.<br /><br />You just convinced me that Lanfear is the killer.<br /><br />I have no doubt--- and in any future arguments I will be your right-hand man in asserting that Lanfear was the killer.<br /><br />Finally, there is the famous quote about RJ saying that we should have known who the killer was by book 8.  This is where Cyndane returned.<br /><br />I think this is all wrapped up nicely.  It is clearly the most intuitively obvious.  Some facts are missing, but who cares?  The missing facts are setting up an explosive Storyline in the future.<br /><br />Props<br /><br />-matrimony<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 13:57:49
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
&quot;There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.&#8221; THE MURDER WEAPON! BALEFIRE!&quot;<br /> <br /> Actually this is a reference to Asmo's recent resurection by Rand using balefire against Rahvin. He was thinking about that by that time. That doesn't mean we should rule out balefire, but hardly qualifies as a real clue to the mistery.<br /> And Etzel showed it's very unlikely for Lanfear to have used balefire. She knew Asmodean is very weak and could've killed him without risking using balefire.<br /> Personally I still think that Asmo was killed by balefire, but by Granedal, which makes much more sence, because she didn't know of the shield Asmo had on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 14:18:28
subject: <b>I'm lovin' it. (with apologizes to MickeyD's)</b>
body:
Columbo... well done.<br /><br />I can't say you are 100% correct (we all will have to RAFO ) but I am leaning toward your viewpoint. I see lanfear as the #1 suspect now.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  But i wouldn't pick her out of a line-up.<br /><br />I used to be a big supporter of Graendal as the murderer...and even toyed with the idea of Slayer..but your arguements for Lanfear are most in line with the way my mind works.<br /><br />One question about the 'Finns .... Do you see  the possiblity of them granting Lanfear's 3 wishes in such a way as to cause her OP strength to decrease? I view this as another possiblity myself.. besides just demanding that she give up said amount of power for her answer..sort of a twisting of the response the same as when Mat got his own person lynching...<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 14:26:14
subject: <b>Not much progress</b>
body:
Hey columbo, you came up with a more coherent story this time, but its still just a story.  You went to prove that there was another way out for her by using information from WH, but since your theory is based on intuitively obvious as of FoH, that doesn't work.  Just thought I'd point that out first.<br /><br /><b>Matrimony:&lt;B&gt;<i>you gave a quote that showed that Baelfire was used</i><br /><br />I'll disagree with you on this one.  I saw nothing to indicate that balefire was used.  Columbo said that RJ mentioning the damage in the palace shows us the murder weapon, except that this is RJ...  The person who likes to describe every facet of a dress a minor character is wearing and all that.  Its more likely that detail is to tell us about where Asmo is than the murder weapon.<br /><br />&lt;B&gt;Matrimony:</b><i>Lanfear most likely inverted the weaves, so that Aviendha didn't notice them.</i><br /><br />As Columbo pointed out on the MB this doesn't work.  See Graendel in WH.  She is utilyzing hide the power and inverted weaves, but Verin still feels an attack coming, she just can't see it.  Even inverting weaves as they are cast, they can still be felt.<br /><br /><br /><br />Personally I still think the most obvious is Taim, but no one agrees with me *grin*  Currently writing that up as a theory just to add more fuel to the fire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 14:27:46
subject: <b>Ugh</b>
body:
Don't you hate when you forget a tag and you're formatting gets all funky.  That's what I get for not previewing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 14:57:04
subject: <b>Not much too add here...</b>
body:
but i agree with jearodam its too many jumps from one to the other i have always thought it was greandal and never lanfear.<br /><br />I have seen far more convincing arguments for greandal than i think i coul ever see for lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 16:10:26
subject: <b>a few thoughts</b>
body:
I like this theory. The way it's been stated and defended, as well as 'flamed' by credible denizens of this site has brought up a number of interesting points. I suppose I'd like to throw a few sticks into the fire, a few thoughts and a question.<br /><br />Columbo's portrayal of Lanfear's sudden change of motive and the reasoning behind ( being her drive for power ) is the most accurate of all I've read. She desires power above all. To enjoy power, you must have your life. LT believed her love for him to be for power only because of his possition. And she was jealous of Illyena back in the AoL, though when she turned to the shadow she did not kill Illyena. LT killed her. Lanfear never gave up trying, however, and this shows with Rand.<br /><br />Also, if Lanfear wanted Rand so bad, she could have wove a net of compulsion on him back when Rand was ignorant (in tear, when the magnificent things he did just 'came to him'). She is a proud individual, and I believe she wished Rand to come willingly to her. She could kill Illyena and Aviendha, but that would not have made LT/Rand come to her. It's all about him submitting to her.<br /><br />As for the use of balefire, read the &quot;Big White Book,&quot; page 43 (paperback). Everything was stated in precise fashion. I believe someone said that everyone (light and dark) was afraid of using it. Or at least weary. In the book it says that in the first year of its discovery cities and entire places were destroyed with balefire. However, once they learned of its full power, they stopped. The dark stopped because they wished to have something left to rule once the war was over. This doesn't say that they stopped using it entirely. They just didn't use it in such vast amounts to take out entire cities or the like. They wanted something left to rule, and not the patten to be dismantled.<br /><br />I do have a question about the use of balefire, as I believe that is how he was killed. (By the way, I loved the pointing out of the scar left by balefire. To me, that's a sure form of forshadowing.) Balefire is destructive, and is a complex weave, as few in the present time actually know how to use it. Or have the power. Wouldn't Aviendha have felt it? I believe Rand, too, is in wonder as to why Asmodeon left. Somewhere, I believe, he states that Asmo must have run off. If Aviendha felt the weaves, and gone to investigate, wouldn't she have told Rand what had happened? Not about balefire, as I don't think she has been faced with that weave yet-- so she would not understand what exactly it was-- but instead that a female had channeled such a weave? He still had no idea power was being used.<br /><br />Etzel, you stated: <br /><br />&quot;Also I don't know if it can be right that &quot;the word still hung in the air&quot;, when the word was actually never spoken if you use balefire.&quot;<br /><br />Read that instant carefully. He spoke, and then his words &quot;hung in the air.&quot; We know that the greater the weave of balefire used, the further in the past the person's deeds were undone. If a small enough weave of balefire was used, wouldn't it be possible that his deeds stopped right as he spoke the final word?<br /><br />I got a few main points out. The others will come to me another time perhaps. Easy.


created: 2004-01-08 16:15:24
subject: <b>I like this one better</b>
body:
Again, a well done theory. But, I still don't agree, however it is due to totally inconsequential things, mostly I don't think RJ will tell us.<br /><br />I do like how you put across the motive, and the reason for balefire (no bringing Asmo back to confirm a story). Really, if I were going to have an actual opinion on this, I'm pretty sure that I'd be leaning more towards the &quot;Lanfear is the killer&quot; view. <br /><br />And I love the intros. Good fun. Good fun indeed.


created: 2004-01-08 17:03:43
subject: <b>Father of Lies.</b>
body:
Good theory Columbo. I guess of all the suspects I now think Lanfear is most likely, but I'm still undecided. The motive part of your theory is great but...<br /><br />I want to explore the intro to LoC a bit. The DO conversation with Demandred, I think, has a few points worth considering.<br /><br />1/ He knew Asmodean was dead. How does the DO get his info? I mean does he see everything that happens? Does he rely on darkfriends, rats, ravens etc for his eyes and ears? The fact that the forsaken think they can hide things from him suggests to me that he is not omnipotent. The fact that the good guys can surprise the shadows forces I think prove the DO does not see all that happens. <br /><br />Anyway back to Demandred and Asmodean. The day after the &quot;homicide&quot; the DO is aware of Asmodeans death. Asmodean was not tied to the Dark One at the time of his death so the DO either had to have ordered the death or been told of it by a servant. Rand didn't even know of Asmodeans death. What darkfriends in the palace knew who Natal was? A rat perhaps? No body was ever found and I get the feeling there were no witnesses to the homicide.<br /><br />I get the feeling the DO ordered the homicide, which is maybe the only thing counting againts the theory Lanfear was covering her tracks...<br /><br />2. The DO is the Father of Lies right? He is the source of the information that he cannot bring back a forsaken who has been balefired. Maybe the DO one was telling Demandred the truth, giving him info he didn't necessarily need. But maybe, just maybe the DO was lying...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 17:16:42
subject: <b>questions from a casual reader</b>
body:
Sorry to ask rookie quesstions but..<br /><br />Why is the damaged was surface near the pantry assumed to be from balefire.  The description always reminded me of damage from a gateway.<br /><br />Has it been established that the land of the ellfinn and aelfinn are actually in the same &quot;dimension&quot; and that travel between the two is easy?<br /><br />Thanks, I value everyone's thoughts as they help me understand appreciate the story so much more.


created: 2004-01-08 17:51:39
subject: <b>About Aviendha sensing Balefire and how the DO knew</b>
body:
First on Aviendha sensing Balefire....<br />even the smalest about of Balefire is able to be sensed...if a woman used it, any woman in the area would have felt it.  Also the amount of the Power needed for it would have triggered Rand's tinglies.  If it was someone wielding Saidin...Rand would have felt that in an instant. <br /><br />Ok...supposing that Balefire was used, and that Aviendha did feel it and went to look around.  She would have come across the place where it happened.  Balefire leaves a very strong residual presence...Aviendha would have seen it, and known immediately what it was...maybe not by name, but the weave most definately.  Remember that Aviendha has the very very rare Talent of being able to read a weave.  That is (in part) why she can pick apart weaves so well.  Take it for what you will....I don't think that balefire was used.<br /><br />Ok...how the Dark One knew.  Simple.  Someone told him.  We already know that the Dark One isn't all knowing...he isn't God.  He isn't even the equal to the Creator, but simply the polar opposite.  Anyways...the Dark One is told things.  Let's see...who told him?  How about Graendal, the Forsaken that killed him?<br /><br />Let's see...no pesky time issue to worry about, or memory down-load to the Dark One when being put into the MindTrap some time later.  Lanfear doesn't have the time for it if Colombo's theory is true of her taking out Asmodean and then going back to Finn-land.  When Demandred talks to the DO the next day...we're talking less than 24 hrs later...the DO already knows.<br /><br />Graendal told us herself that she has made many trips to talk with the Dark One.  Let's see...she takes out Asmodean like I said...and in her ever living quest to be the last one standing, she goes right to the Dark One and tells him everything.  Rhavin has been killed by Rand, Asmodean is dead by her hand....basically the weak and the traitor have been dealt with and the Lord of Chaos is rulling.<br /><br />Once again...the simple, straight forward explanation totally works...no crazy time line issues.  No &quot;can the Finns do that?&quot;.  No &quot;Why didn't Aviendha feel the Balefire&quot;.  Simple and uncomplicated.<br /><br />Jeordam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 17:56:36
subject: <b>Another point: the motive</b>
body:
<b> It&#8217;s obvious from Cyndane&#8217;s point of view in Winter&#8217;s Heart that she was held for a time by the Finns. At this point we have come to the realization that Lanfear survived Moraine and has had the chance to regain her composure. As well Lanfear has a pretty good idea of what is about to transpire back in Randland. She is anxious to return, minutes would feel like hours, hours would feel like days and days like weeks. Lanfear knows full well that every second lost in Finnland is a second lost in Randland (not the case but I hope you get my drift) and she can&#8217;t afford to be away for long. She will have some explaining to do once she returns to Randland and confronts the DO. How much explaining will Lanfear have to do? That will depend on how events unfold in Randland. The sooner she can return the better. Why? Because if another forsaken e.g. Greandal should get her hands on Asmodean and find out the truth about his relationship with Rand, Lanfear is finished. Rand, Asmodean and Lanfear new the truth about Lanfear&#8217;s designs for her and Lews Therin. If Asmodean fell into the wrong hands, he would reveal all and this would seal Lanfear&#8217;s fate, not to mention Lanfear now wants Rand dead, which is another reason to put Asmodean out of his misery.  At this point Lanfear&#8217;s only chance at survival is to eliminate Asmodean before the others get to him, then she can return and put her spin on what happened. Without Asmodean to dispute her story, she&#8217;s greatly increased her chances of survival. Damage control, clean up on isle #4. If Lanfear succeeds, Asmodean will forever be remembered for being a traitor whom Lanfear took care of for the DO and that&#8217;s how Lanfear wants it remembered, as well as the fact that she killed the traitor. Asmodean was Lanfear&#8217;s top priority! If Lanfear could eliminate Asmodean quickly, her chances at survival would increase significantly. Lanfear would have an idea of how time worked in Finnland in relation to Randland; this knowledge would serve her well. </b><br /><br />This passage is also not convincing. <br /><br />You say that Lanfear feared Asmo would fall in the hands of another Forsaken.<br />Why now? Why not before? <br /><br />The Forsaken think Lanfear is dead after TFoH, Graendal states it in LoC.<br />Why would they care to capture Asmo now, even if Lanfear was dead in their view, and ask him anything about Lanfear if they haven't before?  <br /><br />It's of course never said in any Forsaken PoV that they want to question Asmo or suspect that Lanfear &amp; Asmo were connected; apparently at least Demandred, Sammael, Semirhage and Graendal didn't care so much about Asmo if you read their PoVs because killing or capturing him is too dangerous and not really profitable. <br /><br />You think that no other Forsaken besides Lanfear could have killed Asmo, but now you say that any of them would like to get his hands on Asmo and probably would succeed in it without problems which is obviously not right.<br /><br />Finally, there is a difference between Aginor &amp; Balthamel who just get new bodies and Lanfear who is directly imprisoned in a mind-trap by Moridin (like the &quot;traitor&quot; Moghedien) and named Last Chance. <br /><br />This indicates that the DO knew of Lanfear's involvement with Asmo but since Lanfear is too precious he gave her a last chance.


created: 2004-01-08 18:52:21
subject: <b>Another answer....</b>
body:
I know who it was! It was a Lightfriend using special powers granted by the Creator! It was a lightfriend I tell you! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-08 19:12:35
subject: <b>question about the answer to mine,</b>
body:
Where have you read that balefire of any amount can be traced? I'd like to read that for myself. And Aviendha can see the different weaves for gateways and the like because they are active or tied off. Can she sense things that are already gone? <br /><br />Anyone can sense the residue of the powers they weild. A male channeler can sense if the male source has been used, the female can sense the female. But can they sence individual strands?<br /><br />And when has Aviendha learned of Balefire? She can't sense how Rand does it, and he's the only one to do it more than once, who's even around her. Moraine did it in the Stone, but Aviendha wasn't near. None of the Wise Ones have so much as hinted to know of it. Balefire was considered an almost lost art.<br /><br />I apologize for getting away from the main topic, but I'd like to work on closing a few doors to the main stream of this theory.


created: 2004-01-08 19:39:09
subject: <b>Quick thanks for the feedback.</b>
body:
I have yet to read the comments, but I will respond to as much as possible soon.  <br /><br />Sorry I was off the air for a time.<br /><br />Columbo is back on this case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 19:57:07
subject: <b>oh boy...</b>
body:
The Homicide reloaded was excellent, good stuff...<br /><br />I just thought of something - when Mat met with the wish-finns he didn't exit through a door, he just &quot;appeared&quot; in Avendesora, so it <i>is</i> likely that Lanfear appeared where Asmo was. Though Mat did die, maybe that's how Lanfear died?<br /><br /><b>Etzel:</b><br /><br /><b>First, Asmo was surely not killed with balefire. <br />We know that the Forsaken refuse to use balefire if it is not absolutely needed. They saw what balefire causes in the AoL (see e.g. Demandred's POV in LoC).</b><br /><br />Refuse to use balefire? I suppose that's why Rahvin used it with such wreckless abandon in his battle with Rand? pg934 paperback. If Rahvin can blindly balefire anything in his path, why can't Lanfear use it neatly and precisely?<br /><br /><b>Or Lanfear could use Compulsion and take him with her, maybe kill him later, what would also make more sense. <br />Especially if we consider that balefire can be sensed by other channelers.<br />And other people, even Rand could follow Asmo into the room as well.&lt;b/&gt;<br /><br />It would make an equal amount of sense if she incinerated him, or opened a gateway in the middle of the ocean... or balefired him - balfire's the option we have at least <i>some</i> proof of. <br /><br />&lt;b&gt;Lanfear did not die when she fell into the doorway, right. But we can conclude that she burnt out. <br />Therefore the Finn could capture her, because a strong channeler can keep the Finn in check with fire (see Rand in TSR). &lt;b/&gt;<br /><br />How can you conclude that she burnt out over she was released? There's no hard textual evidence of either, on bit of anecdotal evidence is just as good as another. Plus, why would the Finns hold her? They don't know she's Lanfear. <br /><br />The problem is that she was burnt out and thus the Finn could capture her. <br />Otherwise she could have just walked, a fire sword in her hand, to the next doorway.<br /><br />If you can find me a passage that even <i>hints</i> at Lanfear being burnt out before LoC, I'll give it to you, but at this point it doesn't stand.<br /><br />&lt;b&gt; You only say why Lanfear wanted to kill Asmo but not why she didn't want to kill Aviendha or Rand, contrary to her hate a few hours ago. </b><br /><br />Hot rage fades, the cold calculated need to survive lasts. Why would anyone else want to kill Asmo, pre-LoC?<br /><br /><b>The Eelfinn had no reasons to fulfill any of Lanfear's wishes but many not to do it, as I pointed out on the blackboard of the original theory.</b><br /><br />Why wouldn't they fulfill Lanfears wishes? Give me one reason. Let's start by ruling out that Lanfear waltzed and announced she was a servant of the DO, &quot;not gonna do it&quot;. Lanfear's too smart for that, if the Finns didn't know Mat was connectd to Rand - Tarmon Gaidon - the DO, then there's no reason to presume that they knew about Lanfear.  On the contrary, the Finns have much to gain from their baragains, memories/thoughts/sensations - why would they pass up that opportunity with some random woman who can channel? <br /><br /><b>It's comical that you say on the one hand that Lanfear is an expert in Finns but on the other hand messed up with the price and did not wish the right thing.</b><br /><br />She didn't mess up, she got exactly what she wanted (to be able to kill Asmo, and thus survive in the DO graces), and payed exactly what she meant to. Just because she payed a steep price and is angry about it doesn't mean she didn't meant to.<br /><br /><b>By the way, what were the three things Lanfear wished in your view? The Eelfinn don't fulfill every wish.</b><br /><br />what evidence do you have that they don't fulfill every wish, hard evidence. One conjecture's just as good as another.<br /><br />Let's just assume that for the price she paid Lanfear did only get one wish - help me kill an enemy(Asmo). <br /><br /><b>Why couldn't Moiraine wish anything? <br />I suspect that you believe that she is still a prisoner in Finnland as most people do.</b><br /><br />Because she's dead. Lanfear killed her as they were going in, Lanfear get to the other side, Moiraine's body get's to the other side. Lan was semi-conscious, he couldn't tell the precise moment of her death.<br /><br /><b>All in all it's nice fan fiction you wrote us but sadly not based on much evidence. </b><br /><br />Is <i>anything</i> you have said based on hard textual evidence from before LoC? I Have one more thing to say to you, keep clinging to that tuft of grass as long as you can.<br /><br /><b>Columbo</b><br /><br />To be fair, your theory was rife with anecdotal evidence too, especially toward the end. I agree with the text based analysis though, and would like to say that any case against yours had <b><i>BETTER</i></b> have hard evidence to match


created: 2004-01-08 20:12:15
subject: <b>&quot;he who betrays me shall die the final death&quot;</b>
body:
So the Dark One knew that Asmodean was a traitor.  Yet, if Lanfear killed Asmodean, did she also go to tell the Dark One what she did?  Obviously, someone told the DO that he was a traitor which means they got the unvarnished truth, or at least part of it, probably the same someone who killed him.  Lanfear didn't go back to SG since she was 'held' by the *Finns.  But the Dark One, describing Asmodean's death, made it sound premeditated, which we know Lanfear did not plan out with him, since she was planning to betray the Dark One with Rand.  <br /><br />And in WH, Moridin mentioned his awareness of Lanfear's treachery. &quot;You tell me EVERYTHING, don't you Cyndane?&quot;  This is obvious, given the context - Moridin was talking about the access keys which were part of Lanfear's plan of betrayal.  So no matter what, Lanfear's secret was revealed, as was Asmodean's, so her little cover-up attempt as you put it did not succeed.


created: 2004-01-08 22:21:07
subject: <b>I have to say I enjoyed reading the comments....</b>
body:
...very entertaining.<br /><br />The first theory tried to utilize everything up to the murder as RJ suggested.  This theory isn't restricted in the same way.<br /><br />olCennBuie - You make some strong points, and they support the theory.  I like this guy, he sees whats there.  Thanks for looking out for my buddy Etzel.<br /><br />Etzel - Keep hanging to that tuft of grass.  It seems that you'll try anything to turn opinion.  Lucky for me your arguments against have been weak.<br />Just hacking on you, please don't take it seriosly.<br /><br />Zeratul - You've missed the point!  It's also apparent that you've fallen victom to RJ's misdirection.  Have another read and then respond again. If you feel the same way about it we'll have a one on one, okay?<br /><br />Fantasmo de Matrimonio - ? Turned into a latin lover? hahaha.  Thanks for your feedback, its always welcome.  Its not everyday we agree, so this is something.<br /><br />Fyatuk - Please refer to above regarding why a second theory exists.  Hope this helps.<br /><br />p hart - You side with Jeordam, somethings never change.<br /><br />I will respond in more detail when I have the time, sorry!<br /><br />Thanks for all the feedback!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 23:50:54
subject: <b>Jeordam</b>
body:
I wanted to take some special time for you, your coming around slowly but surely to the idea that Lanfear is reponsible for Asmodean's death.  You've always been a Greandal supporter, I've almost got you!  It won't be long now.  Your sharp and you know the series inside out.  Your pride is the only thing holding you back, isn't it? Be honest with Columbo.<br /><br />You liked the first theory.  How do I know this?  You commented on the blackboard.  You don't usually take the time comment unless you feel threatend.  When I read your original comments I knew at that point that you were close but still had some questions. <br /><br />You asked how could Lanfear return? I gave you this....<br /><br />&#8220;She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!&#8221;<br />- Cyndane&#8217;s POV. Winter&#8217;s Heart.<br /><br />What can we gain from this quote? Let&#8217;s zoom in, have a closer look, and see what we can learn. &#8220;the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!&#8221;<br /><br />From Cyndane&#8217;s point of view we learn that either doorway takes you to, and returns you from Finnland, one door Aelfinn&#8217;s home, one door Eelfinn&#8217;s home, and both homes in Finnland. We have a remaining door that functions in Tear, and thus we have an exit. <br />This leaves Lanfear two options;<br />1. Lanfear concludes her business with the Finns and returns via the doorway in Tear.<br />2. Lanfear is granted a wish from the Eelfinn that allows her to return to take care of urgent business.<br /><br />Two KNOWN possibilities!<br /><br />You also asked &quot;why kill Asmodean and not Aviendha?&quot;<br /><br />I gave you a motive that works for Robert Jordan, Lanfear, Columbo and Jeordam.<br /><br />Now you say.....<br /><br />&quot;You make a great case for Lanfear, but if we were in court, and she was on trial, I would say &quot;Not Guilty&quot;, because there is certainly reasonable doubt.&quot;<br /><br />Reasonable doubt?????  It's okay Jeordam, let go and put your pride aside.  Afterall the Greandal idea never worked.  The &quot;Two Servant&quot; theory really gets me.  Sammy and Greandal disguised as servants? I can't visualize either choosing that disguise.  Then Rand comes around the corner and the two servents cower from him?  This doesn't fit either's profile, Sammy cower from Lews Therin? NEVER! Then they just happen to run into Asmodean?  Really going out on a limb with this one.  Why was Greandal no longer disguised as a servant?  Greandal wasn't there and either was Sammy.  Neither showed up to help Rahvin!  They didn't come to his rescue!  They didn't come!  Where's the proof that they where ever there at all?  On what basis, I ask?<br /><br />Lanfear is by far the top suspect.  Embrace it and help us nail it down Jeordam.<br /><br />Columbo is all over Jeordam!<br /><br />Listen to the little voice inside Jeordam, It's always right.  Your Intuition!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 01:45:21
subject: <b>Thoughts on the Reload</b>
body:
Columbo, you have plugged many of the holes in your bucket.  This one holds water much better.  (I say that, but your last theory conviced me; this one just cements it).<br /><br />However, I'm not sure I buy that Lanfear was wisked away back into Finnland after killing Asmo.  This is an excerpt from my reply to Etzel on his theory &quot;Slayer Vs. Graendal&quot;:<br /><font size="-1"><b>The issue here is the rate at which time flows. We know that there are other planes where time flows differently, i.e. Portal Stone Worlds, where time can flow either faster or slower; TAR, where time can flow both faster and slower, alternately. In fact, if you hold with the Olver/Gaidal Cain(sp?) theory, there can be a difference of years involved. If time flows in the Finn worlds similarly to how it flows in TAR(no proof either way) then the idea that Lanfear was held for some time and then released in time to kill Asmo becomes not only plausible, but highly believable.</b></font><br /><br />I think that idea could take care of the entire time Lanfear was held by Finns.  <br /><br />Also, I'm personally leaning toward this idea: after Lanfear killed Asmo, she went to report to the DO.  To let her know how far she had sunk in his/it's eyes, he kills her, then puts her in a less attractive body with a mindtrap.  This just feels to me like it flows better.<br /><br />Finally, to Jeordam-at the time of Asmo's death, just about anyone who he would be supprised to see would be dangerous to him.  Lanfear just has more reason than the others to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 03:31:42
subject: <b>To explain it a bit more</b>
body:
To olCennBuie,<br /><br /><b> Refuse to use balefire? I suppose that's why Rahvin used it with such wreckless abandon in his battle with Rand? pg934 paperback. If Rahvin can blindly balefire anything in his path, why can't Lanfear use it neatly and precisely? </b><br /><br />I said that the Forsaken don't balefire except it's absolutely necessary, e.g. against a deadly opponent like Rand. Read e.g. Demandred's thoughts after the DO asks him if he would use balefire for him in LoC, prologue. <br /><br />Asmo was far from deadly. Why balefire him immediately? <br />It's like an assassination of a defenceless man with a bazooka.<br /><br />As said we also have e.g. the problem of sensing the weave.<br /><br />And above all Lanfear couldn't use any balefire against him since she had an alibi as being a prisoner or a corpse. <br /><br /><b> It would make an equal amount of sense if she incinerated him, or opened a gateway in the middle of the ocean... or balefired him - balfire's the option we have at least some proof of. </b><br /><br />We only know that Asmo was killed fast. <br />I believe since the killer could not know that Asmo would enter (and the wish thingy can't explain it really, too), the person surely wouldn't balefire any person who enters the room without a second thought, but the scene would indicate just that.<br /><br />Besides, even if balefire was used, nothing says that Lanfear used it.<br /><br /><b> How can you conclude that she burnt out over she was released? There's no hard textual evidence of either, on bit of anecdotal evidence is just as good as another. Plus, why would the Finns hold her? They don't know she's Lanfear. </b><br /><br />Read Moiraine's last PoV in TFoH, ch.52. <br />Moiraine saw everything what would happen on this day, already in Rhuidean: &quot;it was in her dreams so often since Rhuidean&quot;.   <br />She sees Lanfear holding an angreal, and considers &quot;unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that.&quot;<br />Then we learn that actually Moiraine brought this angreal, a bracelet, out of Rhuidean and &quot;yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.&quot;<br /><br />That means although Moiraine knew that Lanfear would overpower Rand with this angreal she placed it there because she saw it in Rhuidean. <br />That seems like madness but then Moiraine strikes at Lanfear who is concentrated on Rand, and tries to &quot;clawing the bracelet away&quot;. <br />Both fall through the doorway, and the doorway is destroyed in the end.<br /><br />I think that Moiraine did all this to push Lanfear to Finnland, and while they fell together, full with the OP, fighting for an angreal, this uncontrolled angreal was responsible to burn them out.<br /><br />If Lanfear could use the OP in Finnland she could just force the Finn to let her out. <br />But we know that she was even a prisoner of both Finn races, which is even harder to believe if Lanfear could still channel.<br /><br />I don't think that Lanfear's connection to the Shadow is the reason why the Finn captured her. Also Moiraine was captured by them.  <br /><br />I believe the woman likely broke some rules when they entered together, fighting and destroying the doorway; they were intruders in the Finn realm.<br /><br />Plus, if they burned out, they were probably quite helpless in the first moments after their arrive. <br />So the Finn took the opportunity to imprison them since they like the sensations of human as you know. <br />We also know e.g. that Finn wear human skin. <br /><br /><b> If you can find me a passage that even hints at Lanfear being burnt out before LoC, I'll give it to you, but at this point it doesn't stand. </b><br /><br />That Lanfear burned out is also the first clue to the answer why Cyndane has less power than Lanfear.<br /><br />In my view Lanfear died later and was resurrected by the DO. <br />The Shadow knew from Logain that it's possible for a woman to heal a gentled man completely. <br /><br />If that is possible it should be even more likely that you can heal burned out channelers, when the OP ability is not severed &quot;surgically&quot; exact.<br />Probably either Moridin was not such successful for a man (maybe he used the TP?) or Moghedien was very successful in healing a burned out Cyndane, thus she lost a part of her power. <br /><br /><b> Hot rage fades, the cold calculated need to survive lasts. Why would anyone else want to kill Asmo, pre-LoC? </b><br /><br />The DO e.g. would want it as he said in LoC because Asmo was a traitor (and it allowed the Taim plot); he sent his assassin Slayer in my view.<br /><br />The other Forsaken have no good own motive and therefore it's not convincing that Lanfear thought all of them would suddenly try to get Asmo and that she has to kill him quickly.<br /><br /><b> Why wouldn't they fulfill Lanfears wishes? Give me one reason. Let's start by ruling out that Lanfear waltzed and announced she was a servant of the DO, &quot;not gonna do it&quot;. Lanfear's too smart for that, if the Finns didn't know Mat was connectd to Rand - Tarmon Gaidon - the DO, then there's no reason to presume that they knew about Lanfear. On the contrary, the Finns have much to gain from their baragains, memories/thoughts/sensations - why would they pass up that opportunity with some random woman who can channel? </b><br /><br />See above.<br />They would gain even more sensations if they imprison her. <br /><br /><b> She didn't mess up, she got exactly what she wanted (to be able to kill Asmo, and thus survive in the DO graces), and payed exactly what she meant to. Just because she payed a steep price and is angry about it doesn't mean she didn't meant to. </b><br /><br />I'm convinced that you can't wish everything and surely not something like: &quot;I want to be able to kill Asmo&quot;.<br /><br />The Finn can only give you things and grant wishes they can easily achieve (e.g. like Mat wishes to leave their realm).<br /><br />As I said the DO apparently knew of Lanfear's plot.<br /><br /><b> what evidence do you have that they don't fulfill every wish, hard evidence. One conjecture's just as good as another.<br /><br />Let's just assume that for the price she paid Lanfear did only get one wish - help me kill an enemy(Asmo). </b><br /><br />I wrote a theory about it, called &quot;Wishing from the Eelfinn&quot;, were I figured it. <br /><br />If the Finn grant, they grant three wishes.<br /><br /><b> Because she's dead. Lanfear killed her as they were going in, Lanfear get to the other side, Moiraine's body get's to the other side. Lan was semi-conscious, he couldn't tell the precise moment of her death. </b><br /><br />Well, you are one of two people I know who believe Moiraine is dead. <br /><br />There are some good reasons why the majority thinks she is still alive; search in the TP for it.<br /><br /><b> Is anything you have said based on hard textual evidence from before LoC? I Have one more thing to say to you, keep clinging to that tuft of grass as long as you can. </b><br /><br />Well, yes, as shown I got my ideas from reading the WOT series, even from all books.<br /><br /><br />To Columbo,<br /><br /><b> Keep hanging to that tuft of grass. It seems that you'll try anything to turn opinion. Lucky for me your arguments against have been weak.<br />Just hacking on you, please don't take it seriosly. </b><br /><br />Want to say it again, if I make a pointed remark, it's never meant as a personal attack; it makes the debate more lively and funny than only unemotional arguing. <br /><br />I respect you as a precious poster of the Theory Post.<br />Just can't agree with your view on this topic...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-01-09 05:53:30
subject: <b>Attack of the killer....</b>
body:
If slayer is the killer, it is obvious that Lanfear hired him, She were the only one as far as we know aware of the shielding, and the others would probably not risk loosing their top dog assasin at a quest like this. <br /><br />I dont think its slayer, but it leads to Lanfear anyway<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What do you think of Lanfear finding Ash with the shielding only she could see?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 10:24:18
subject: <b>Colombo...you rock</b>
body:
The only thing holding me back is my pride?!?  Well the Aiel are a proud people, not like you wetlanders....<br /><br />anyway, I will never think that Lanfear is the suspect, because there is just too much not going for her.<br /><br />Let's clear some things up shall we?  Those two servents that were cowering in the corner when Rand ran by...they were just servents.  I don't think that they were Sammael or Graendal.  In fact, I don't think that Graendal would have had a mask of mirrors up at all (we know from when she was in her home in Arad Domon that she has no problem looking bad for a while).  She had no mask of mirrors because Asmodean recognized her.<br /><br />Anyways, she was only in the palace talking to Rhavin, Sammael was still in Illian.  Rand didn't attack Sammael as they expected.  They continue to bait him into doing it, but Rand just isn't going for it.<br /><br />I'm comming to this.  We know that Graendal and Rhavin were conspiring together.  We know that Asmodean recognized his killer, and then was scared of his killer.  <br /><br />Say what you will, but that little voice in my head is telling me to go with my first instinct...Graendal.<br /><br />Jeordam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 10:51:30
subject: <b>Surprise</b>
body:
I have seen alot of comments about the use of balefire and whether the killer was prepared to use it (ie surprised by Asmo's entrance).  I happen to believe Asmo was killed by balefire.  If you agree with that assumption, then the killer must have been prepared to use it and hide its use. The only way I believe they could have been prepared is if they knew Asmo was about to walk through that &quot;pantry&quot; door.  Columbo's theory is the best I have seen that explains how the killer was prepared.  Asmo did die the final death, and I just believe that it was balefire and the person who balefired him was sitting there waiting to use it.


created: 2004-01-09 12:56:06
subject: <b>my little addition...</b>
body:
about &quot;You!No!&quot;  :<br /><br />I agree with the assessment that 'you' denotes the last person Asmo expected to see.<br /><br />However, when I read 'No,' I get a sense of pleading, one last chance to beg for mercy.  Asmo knew it would be futile, but maybe he thought his and Lanfear's recent connection would provide some sort of buffer.<br /><br />I'm still not set on how/why Lanfear returned to kill Asmo, RAFO...hopefully <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 13:14:31
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
i do like this theory more than the original, congradulations, i almost converted. <br /><br />i just cant get to grips with lanfear returning in her original body, THEN getting held by the 'finns.<br /><br />the cyndane quote PROVES she was helpd captive, and no way in hell can she be released to kill asmo and then captured AGAIN.<br /><br />oh and i am NOT saying who i think did it,  just i really want you to reply to this columbo, answer what i've said convincingly, and you've covered every damned hole in the lanfeardunnit theory.<br /><br />P.S. &quot;the final death&quot; need not be balefire, the black cords rand severed destroyed the DO's chance of ressurecting asmo. he couldnt be brought back, NOR could his death be sensed.<br /><br />why couldnt lanfear have died in finnland (skinned alive?)<br />then her soul caught by the DO, interrogated, and slayer sent to kill asmo, knowing he was in a weakened state?<br /><br />they had a good 24 hours (assume lanfear dying in finnland instantly) for this to happen.<br /><br />im ranting. adios!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 14:47:21
subject: <b>the long gash</b>
body:
<b>&#8220;There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.&#8221; THE MURDER WEAPON! BALEFIRE! </b><br /><br />first off, great theory. funny and informative. congratulations on developing a credible theory as to the murderer. while i agree that it is circumstantial, i think that circumstantial evidence is all we are given; had there been any &quot;hard&quot; evidence, i'm sure this mystery would be no mystery at all.<br /><br />i think that in the above quote from your theory, however, may prove fatal to your arguement.<br /><br />unless i'm mistaking, you say the Lanfear wished to killed Asmo and was place in his path, in essence, by the Finn (i forget which ones do the wish granting). So it's safe to assume that she did not arrive by gateway.<br /><br />also, based on your theory, RJ left us the clues to his murderer in the passages preceding the incident. then you went on to misinterpret the &quot;long gash&quot; evidence as balefire. maybe if he said &quot;long hole&quot; or something like that. here's how i see it:<br /><br />everything is as you say it is, but the evidence of a gateway not only backs your statement that a channeler must have killed him, it insinuates that the channeler is just made the gateway, due to it's placement in the text. whether the murderer traveled in or out of the area is of no consequence (yet).<br /><br />Lanfear, being placed in his path, would not need to make a gateway, and especially not outside the wine cellar room thing.<br /><br />i'm not saying Lnafear didn't do it. it's very possible. I'm just saying that she couldn't have done it the way you say she did.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 15:33:13
subject: <b>helzpont...</b>
body:
...you miss understand.  The passage refers to baledfire damage done earlier in the day by Rand and Rahvin, not a gateway.  Hope this helps?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 15:33:30
subject:
<b>This strains credulity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
How, in the Light, are the Finns going to release Lanfear and then get her back again? On her promise to return?<br />There is no evidence anywhere that the Finns come into the realm of Westland. Do you seriously believe Lanfear would return, voluntarily?<br /><br />The Finns have to know who she is. After all, they read the pattern, both future and past. Unless you are suggesting the Finns work for the DO.<br /><br />Etzel`s theory makes far more sense.<br /><br />As I have stated several times in other posts, the DO ordered Asmodean`s death, probably by Slayer, or maybe by Shaidar Haran, to gain Asmo`s OP to instill in Shaidar Haran, a trusted ally, in order to make him stronger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 15:43:43
subject: <b>jofraz....</b>
body:
...first thanks for your comments.<br /><br />I would like to see a theory from you that explains Shaidar Haran?  I've seen one from Etzel Re Slayer, maybe you can do better?  It's fine to say it was this guy, or maybe that guy, but please show us something to back it up.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-09 21:56:44
subject: <b>Asmodean's final death</b>
body:
Okay, I was just thinking, what does the Dark One really mean by the &quot;final death&quot; that Asmodean suffered? We should be aware that the DO knows full well about the recycling of souls. Now, I think that maybe this means that Asmodean will never ever come back. Normally, I would think that balefire would completely and utterly destroy someone without a chance of bringing him or her back. But, as per RJs recent comments...I no longer think that balefire prevents someone from being reborn. The only think that I can think of is being shoved into a vacuole. But that doesn't seem right with the whole &quot;and death took him&quot; sentence. <br /><br />Do you think I'm reading too much into the &quot;final death&quot; quote? Or, if not, what could the final death mean, since balefire no longer seems to be an option, as people can be brought back?<br /><br />Sorry if this is just silly, but...I'm a little conflicted on that.


created: 2004-01-10 01:42:34
subject: <b>Must post here too!</b>
body:
Ok, I am about half way done with new spring, and I must admit, I have been drawn back to Wotmania like a (fill in your favorite saying about bees to honey or some crap). <br /><br />Wow wow wow, talk about kicking the hornets nest Columbo. This rocks, I really wish you and GG would have kept in better touch with me when I was alive and kicking here! I am NO good at coming up with theory on my own, never had one published, EVAR, but I am great at pointing out flaw. <br /><br />That aside, I am not trying to pick on anybody tonight just to make somebody feel bad, however, Etzel, this is getting silly. This is no personal attack, though it might feel like one, I don't know you enough to personally attack you. But, that said, this is plain nuts. How many times do we need to rehash here? I read all the Slayer points, and sorry, but slayer was never a fit. EVER. He just doesn't work. <br /><br />It was BF that got the Asmo, not some secret covert operation where slayer popped in, killed a guy we never associate him with, and then draged his body in the world of dreams.<br /><br />Last I checked, in order to enter the world of dreams, you had to be either A) Alive and a Channeler or B) Dreaming. Never seen a DEAD guy go there... <br /><br />And before you jump on that, because hey we don&#8217;t know do we, we don&#8217;t know if somebody can enter the dream world, dead&#8230; Almost every argument you have given depends on interpretation, not what we KNOW. The whole slayer theory demands we draw conclusions based on faith. Lanfear doesn&#8217;t. We know she is still alive, that&#8217;s a fact. But how she died or even if she did, we guess at, we interpolate. But FACT remains; she is still around (I guess we assume that Cyndane is her based on the Finn line, maybe we interpolate that too). I don&#8217;t care that Asmo recognized his killer, I don&#8217;t care about all the likely scenarios, Lanfear is still alive&#8230; Asmo knew Lanfear&#8230; We saw this&#8230; We never saw Asmo and Slayer whooping it up, EVER!<br /><br />Facts are Facts! Coming up with a theory within a theory (slayer can take bodies into the TAR) is just reaching. I dig this theory, because it doesn&#8217;t make us need to make up a theory to make a theory work. It&#8217;s just simple, and that falls within &#8220;intuitively obvious&#8221;. We never saw Lanfear die (I don&#8217;t even care if she made a wish to kill Asmo). We never saw Moirane die. We never saw anybody die but Asmo that day, and well Kadre, but he was only good for hats, and he never gave me one. <br /><br />Facts are facts. Everybody thinks Moirane is coming back, and why would she come back and not Lanfear? Because Lanfear is shadow? The only thing we know, is that QUESTIONS about the SHADOW are bad, for all we know, being the shadow is the bomb in finnland, just don&#8217;t talk about it, we don&#8217;t know &#8230;  <br /><br />The foreshadowing that Columbo explained, what with Lanfear being dead, and the balefire marks on the wall, just before &quot;death takes him&quot; are enough for me. This is not as complex as we want to make it; it's as simple as your gut tells you. I believe now that RJ told us the killer and her means on the same page. It FITS.<br /><br />My only big fear, as I stated on the previous blackboard, is that RJ is going to leave this ambiguous, because we fret over it so much. He is never going to tell, and make it one of those plot ends he never clears up by series end. I can see that future for it, I can. But Slayer? No. I don't even care how likely it could fit if you can put 4 and 13 together, I have read all that crap, it just doesn't fit with the story. If I am wrong, and when and if we do ever find out, you can have all my WSE pts (I was going to buy the porche with them, but screw it, I will risk it).<br /><br />Again, no real personal attack here, I am just sick of the annoying counterargument. Slayer was just a side story in the two rivers when Asmo died...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-10 04:23:12
subject: <b>*Jumps on Windsor*</b>
body:
<b> That aside, I am not trying to pick on anybody tonight just to make somebody feel bad, however, Etzel, this is getting silly. This is no personal attack, though it might feel like one, I don't know you enough to personally attack you. But, that said, this is plain nuts. How many times do we need to rehash here? I read all the Slayer points, and sorry, but slayer was never a fit. EVER. He just doesn't work. </b><br /><br />Then you apparently didn't understand the Slayer points. Actually he fits best and has the fewest problems.<br /><br /><b> It was BF that got the Asmo, not some secret covert operation where slayer popped in, killed a guy we never associate him with, and then draged his body in the world of dreams. </b><br /><br />If you really read all points, you should know what speaks against balefire.<br /><br /><b> Last I checked, in order to enter the world of dreams, you had to be either A) Alive and a Channeler or B) Dreaming. Never seen a DEAD guy go there... </b><br /><br />Oh my.., of course Slayer <i> carried </i> the corpse to TAR. <br />If you can take you clothes with you, why not something else?<br /><br />Plus, in LoC we see that Egwene takes her possessions with her, when she travels via TAR to Salidar (in the flesh!).<br /><br /><b> And before you jump on that, because hey we don&#8217;t know do we, we don&#8217;t know if somebody can enter the dream world, dead&#8230; Almost every argument you have given depends on interpretation, not what we KNOW. The whole slayer theory demands we draw conclusions based on faith. Lanfear doesn&#8217;t. We know she is still alive, that&#8217;s a fact. But how she died or even if she did, we guess at, we interpolate. But FACT remains; she is still around (I guess we assume that Cyndane is her based on the Finn line, maybe we interpolate that too). I don&#8217;t care that Asmo recognized his killer, I don&#8217;t care about all the likely scenarios, Lanfear is still alive&#8230; Asmo knew Lanfear&#8230; We saw this&#8230; We never saw Asmo and Slayer whooping it up, EVER! </b><br /><br />The Slayer theory depends on connecting clues from all the books, which either support Slayer or rule someone else out.<br />E.g. Lanfear was ruled out in WH, if you are honest.<br /><br />Besides, since Cyndane appeared the first time in PoD, we can assume that Lanfear was not around in TFoH, a few hours after her &quot;death&quot;.<br /><br />That you don't care about important points in the murder scenarios, shows already that we can hardly take you serious.<br />You have your opinion and that's it. <br /><br /><b> Facts are Facts! Coming up with a theory within a theory (slayer can take bodies into the TAR) is just reaching. I dig this theory, because it doesn&#8217;t make us need to make up a theory to make a theory work. It&#8217;s just simple, and that falls within &#8220;intuitively obvious&#8221;. We never saw Lanfear die (I don&#8217;t even care if she made a wish to kill Asmo). We never saw Moirane die. We never saw anybody die but Asmo that day, and well Kadre, but he was only good for hats, and he never gave me one. </b><br /><br />It's not a theory that Slayer can take things with him, it's just common sense and we saw that it's possible in the books.<br /><br />You are also too much focused on the obvious comment and actually forget/ignore the facts you apparently demand so urgent. <br /><br />Cyndane says in WH that she was a prisoner of the Finn (you seem to admit that she did not wish anything). <br />We know that Cyndane is Lanfear in a new body. <br />That means Lanfear died. We didn't have to see her death to know that.<br /><br />Who else besides the DO can put souls of dead Forsaken in a new body? <br />No one, surely not the Finn, as e.g. Columbo pointed out, the DO is the &quot;Lord of the Grave&quot;. <br />Otherwise I want to see your theory in the theory why the Finn can do it. <br /><br /><b> Facts are facts. Everybody thinks Moirane is coming back, and why would she come back and not Lanfear? Because Lanfear is shadow? The only thing we know, is that QUESTIONS about the SHADOW are bad, for all we know, being the shadow is the bomb in finnland, just don&#8217;t talk about it, we don&#8217;t know &#8230; </b><br /><br />Well, if Moiraine &amp; Lanfear died, of course only Lanfear comes back because she &quot;is shadow&quot;. <br />That are really WoT basics you question here.<br /> <br />Of course I'm sure that Moiraine is still alive in Finnland; everyone knows the clues why she will be rescued. <br /><br /><b> The foreshadowing that Columbo explained, what with Lanfear being dead, and the balefire marks on the wall, just before &quot;death takes him&quot; are enough for me. This is not as complex as we want to make it; it's as simple as your gut tells you. I believe now that RJ told us the killer and her means on the same page. It FITS. </b><br /><br />It's sad and I would be glad if it would really fit. But grave, endlessly repeated and never disproved arguments speak against it.<br /><br /><b> My only big fear, as I stated on the previous blackboard, is that RJ is going to leave this ambiguous, because we fret over it so much. He is never going to tell, and make it one of those plot ends he never clears up by series end. I can see that future for it, I can. But Slayer? No. I don't even care how likely it could fit if you can put 4 and 13 together, I have read all that crap, it just doesn't fit with the story. If I am wrong, and when and if we do ever find out, you can have all my WSE pts (I was going to buy the porche with them, but screw it, I will risk it). </b><br /><br />Nice.<br /><br />And I agree, it's possible that RJ never tells the answer, although I doubt it a bit if we scream long enough at him.<br /><br /><b> Again, no real personal attack here, I am just sick of the annoying counterargument. Slayer was just a side story in the two rivers when Asmo died... </b><br /><br />You absolutely misconceive Slayer's importance for the Shadow &amp; the story.<br /><br />I can only suggest you to read the books again.


created: 2004-01-10 08:00:56
subject: <b>Oh come here wee columbo...</b>
body:
you've ignored us too often.<br /><br />WHY WOULD THE FINNS RELEASE LANFEAR.<br /><br />For asmo to recognise her, she would have to be in her original body.<br /><br />and as i already said, the cyndane quote proves she was held prisoner. she cant have been released, brought back, held captive, killed then ressurected. thats bullsh!te.<br /><br /><br /><br />also, the &quot;you?&quot; part, puzzlement? what, if i saw someone who really hated me, i'd skip straight to the &quot;no!&quot; bit.<br /><br />that means it was someone asmo didnt supsect, like a non-channler suddenly channeling, or a lan-look alike morphing  into a rand look-alike. luc/isam can change remember?<br /><br />you can respond to the big boys, you can respond to me. do so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-10 08:19:27
subject: <b>I just can't resist adding a little more fuel to the fire</b>
body:
One thing I think we all tend to forget, is that there were plots by all the Forsaken as well as the DO. While some of the FS plotted together, they also had their own plans, some of which might have come from, or been approved by the DO.<br /><br />Let's take a look at Lanfear's conversation with Rand, in the Stone:<br /><br /> &quot;Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to weild the Power without it killing you, teach what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.&quot;<br /><br />And here is a PoV from Sammael in LoC:<br /><br /> &quot;Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free.&quot;<br /><br />Here's the way I see it: Lanfear went to the DO with her plan to teach Rand how to channel and turn him to the Shadow in the process, by using all her good looks, charms, etc. All she needs is a teacher. Of course, she and Rand can rule side-by-side, as long as she is Nae'blis, and her leading. Sounds like a pretty good plan to the DO, since Rand needs to be able to channel effectively anyway, otherwise, what good is he? So the DO gives her permission to proceed, taking a chance to get the Dragon in exchange for Asmo. A bargain if it works.<br /><br />So, what happens? Rahvin gets BF and the DO finds out who did it.(Remember, some of the fades more than likely escaped, besides, he would know when one of his own died anyway, confirmation of who did it is all he needs). Obviously Lanfear's plan has allowed Rand to learn possibly too much, and not only hasn't she turned him, now he is killing the Chosen he values. <br /><br />Time for damage control, and switch to plan B. No more lessons for Rand, right off the top. Send someone to off the teacher. (I won't even speculate who). <br /><br />Ultimately Lanfear's failed plan earns her a second or &quot;last chance&quot;, and a mind-trap for punishment.<br /><br />Now, as for Asmo. Did the DO really think that he betrayed him? Afterall, he was just a pawn in a failed scheme. But, all the other Forsaken think of him as traitor. Perhaps he lets Demandred think what he wants to hear. Read what the DO says again. Each statement is separate, not necessarily connected:<br /><br /> &quot;THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.&quot;<br /><br />I'll be darned if the DO doesn't talk like an Aes Sedai! The 'Who betrays me shall die the final death' sentence, could easily apply to anyone as a warning, not necessarily to Asmo in particular.<br /><br />Sorry to disagree with you on this one Columbo, but after doing some more reading, I think Lanfear and Moiraine were both stilled. Lan's reaction indicates he lost the bond, IMO, however temporarily that might have been, for the time it took to pass to Myrelle. Even though the doorway was destroyed, I can't see how it would make any difference to that connection, since there was no similar loss when Moiraine went through the doorway in Tear. (IMO, the other doorway is still in existence, keeping that world open to be felt. At least I hope we agree it is the same world). And since I think Moiraine is alive, the bond was severed by the stilling, not her death. (Why would she transfer the bond before she tackled Lanfear? She had already made arrangements with Myrelle. Lan also doesn't say he can't feel her until the doorway starts melting. I doubt she would try to pass it while she's fighting for her life).<br /><br />Incomplete Healing is what we have to suspect for Cyndane's lower strength, too. No other Forsaken has professed to losing any power in their incarnations. Since the ability  appears to be linked to the soul, from what we have seen, her loss is not because of her new body.<br /><br />I also doubt the Finn would grant anyone three wishes that they were holding prisoner. Moiraine and Lanfear broke the treaty by channeling, more than likely, thus breaking the prescripts, voiding any wish-granting. I think it would also be impossible for a Forsaken to make a wish that didn't touch the Shadow in some way, if that holds true for the Aelfinn as well as the Eelfinn. <br /><br />I find it unlikely they would let a prisoner go on the promise to return, too. We have no evidence to show that their special abilities hold true in this world, that I'm aware of, so how could they force her to return once she left?<br /><br />Just thought I'd let you know I liked the original better than the sequel. Movies are usually like that too! <br /><br />(I thought Lanfear was a good choice since Asmo had just been thinking about her. Too much depends on the wishes though, IMO). <br /><br />I still don't think it's Slayer, either. Etzel has been insisting that Slayer can see people from Tel'aran'rhiod, which is not true. And he gave Asmo too much of a chance to react for it to be him. Compare that to WH where he stabs the two people in bed. He thought it was Rand and Min, in a city where he couldn't channel:<br /><br /> &quot;Isam paced the room, studying by the ever-present light of Tel'aran'rhiod. The bed linens shifted from rumpled to neatly made between one glance and the next. The coverlet changed from flowered to plain dark red to quilted. The ephemeral always changed here, and he barely noticed anymore.&quot; <br /><br /> &quot;Stopping beside the bed, he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the unseen world into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate.<br /> The room was dark in the waking world, but the single window let in sufficient moonlight for Luc to make out the mounded shapes of two people lying asleep beneath their blankets. Without hesitation he drove a blade into each. They woke with small cries, but he pulled the blades free and drove them in again and again. With the poison, it was unlikely either would have has the strength to shout loudly enough to be heard outside the room, but he wanted to make this kill his own in a way that poison could not grant. Soon they stopped twitching when he thrust a blade between the ribs.&quot;<br /><br />Plainly he cannot see people from T'A'R as witnessed by the shifting bed covers. <br /><br />Notice too, that he did not hesitate to stab either one the second he entered the waking world. They were also asleep. <br /><br />I don't think you can convince me that he would give Asmo the chance to channel, just so he would know who was killing him. Slayer is more apt to stab you in the back if he had the chance, than to take on someone face-to-face. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-10 10:05:01
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
<b> One thing I think we all tend to forget, is that there were plots by all the Forsaken as well as the DO. While some of the FS plotted together, they also had their own plans, some of which might have come from, or been approved by the DO.<br /><br />Let's take a look at Lanfear's conversation with Rand, in the Stone:<br /><br />&quot;Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to weild the Power without it killing you, teach what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.&quot;<br /><br />And here is a PoV from Sammael in LoC:<br /><br />&quot;Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free.&quot;<br /><br />Here's the way I see it: Lanfear went to the DO with her plan to teach Rand how to channel and turn him to the Shadow in the process, by using all her good looks, charms, etc. All she needs is a teacher. Of course, she and Rand can rule side-by-side, as long as she is Nae'blis, and her leading. Sounds like a pretty good plan to the DO, since Rand needs to be able to channel effectively anyway, otherwise, what good is he? So the DO gives her permission to proceed, taking a chance to get the Dragon in exchange for Asmo. A bargain if it works.<br /><br />So, what happens? Rahvin gets BF and the DO finds out who did it.(Remember, some of the fades more than likely escaped, besides, he would know when one of his own died anyway, confirmation of who did it is all he needs). Obviously Lanfear's plan has allowed Rand to learn possibly too much, and not only hasn't she turned him, now he is killing the Chosen he values. <br /><br />Time for damage control, and switch to plan B. No more lessons for Rand, right off the top. Send someone to off the teacher. (I won't even speculate who). <br /><br />Ultimately Lanfear's failed plan earns her a second or &quot;last chance&quot;, and a mind-trap for punishment.<br /><br />Now, as for Asmo. Did the DO really think that he betrayed him? Afterall, he was just a pawn in a failed scheme. But, all the other Forsaken think of him as traitor. Perhaps he lets Demandred think what he wants to hear. Read what the DO says again. Each statement is separate, not necessarily connected:<br /><br />&quot;THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.&quot;<br /><br />I'll be darned if the DO doesn't talk like an Aes Sedai! The 'Who betrays me shall die the final death' sentence, could easily apply to anyone as a warning, not necessarily to Asmo in particular.<br /><br />Sorry to disagree with you on this one Columbo, but after doing some more reading, I think Lanfear and Moiraine were both stilled. Lan's reaction indicates he lost the bond, IMO, however temporarily that might have been, for the time it took to pass to Myrelle. Even though the doorway was destroyed, I can't see how it would make any difference to that connection, since there was no similar loss when Moiraine went through the doorway in Tear. (IMO, the other doorway is still in existence, keeping that world open to be felt. At least I hope we agree it is the same world). And since I think Moiraine is alive, the bond was severed by the stilling, not her death. (Why would she transfer the bond before she tackled Lanfear? She had already made arrangements with Myrelle. Lan also doesn't say he can't feel her until the doorway starts melting. I doubt she would try to pass it while she's fighting for her life).<br /><br />Incomplete Healing is what we have to suspect for Cyndane's lower strength, too. No other Forsaken has professed to losing any power in their incarnations. Since the ability appears to be linked to the soul, from what we have seen, her loss is not because of her new body.<br /><br />I also doubt the Finn would grant anyone three wishes that they were holding prisoner. Moiraine and Lanfear broke the treaty by channeling, more than likely, thus breaking the prescripts, voiding any wish-granting. I think it would also be impossible for a Forsaken to make a wish that didn't touch the Shadow in some way, if that holds true for the Aelfinn as well as the Eelfinn. <br /><br />I find it unlikely they would let a prisoner go on the promise to return, too. We have no evidence to show that their special abilities hold true in this world, that I'm aware of, so how could they force her to return once she left? </b><br /><br />Agree with everything. That's in principle what I figured, too.<br />Especially good remarks on Lanfear's plotting &amp; the stilling. <br /><br />Another reason for the DO to kill Asmo at this time was probably the Taim plot. <br /><br />Also that the DO didn't necessarily believe that Asmo was a traitor but said this as an urgent warning for the other Forsaken to keep them in line fits with the DO's mistrust of his Chosen in the AoL and SH's purpose. <br /><br /><b> I still don't think it's Slayer, either. Etzel has been insisting that Slayer can see people from Tel'aran'rhiod, which is not true. And he gave Asmo too much of a chance to react for it to be him. Compare that to WH where he stabs the two people in bed. He thought it was Rand and Min, in a city where he couldn't channel:<br /><br />&quot;Isam paced the room, studying by the ever-present light of Tel'aran'rhiod. The bed linens shifted from rumpled to neatly made between one glance and the next. The coverlet changed from flowered to plain dark red to quilted. The ephemeral always changed here, and he barely noticed anymore.&quot; <br /><br />&quot;Stopping beside the bed, he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the unseen world into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate.<br />The room was dark in the waking world, but the single window let in sufficient moonlight for Luc to make out the mounded shapes of two people lying asleep beneath their blankets. Without hesitation he drove a blade into each. They woke with small cries, but he pulled the blades free and drove them in again and again. With the poison, it was unlikely either would have has the strength to shout loudly enough to be heard outside the room, but he wanted to make this kill his own in a way that poison could not grant. Soon they stopped twitching when he thrust a blade between the ribs.&quot;<br /><br />Plainly he cannot see people from T'A'R as witnessed by the shifting bed covers. </b><br /><br />I said I believe that Slayer can somehow find his victims, knows where they are. <br />One possibility I gave was that he can see from TAR, another would be that he uses TAR in a special way.<br /><br />Slayer could not know that Rand was in this room, nevertheless he found the room (though a bit late). <br />After his miss he says his patron he could try again to find Rand. How in a city like Far Madding?<br /><br />He also found the BA cell and in my view the Seal thieves in CoT.<br /><br />I believe he knew that Asmo would enter through the door. <br /><br />If indeed Slayer can't see or find his victims in TAR it was nevertheless possible that he saw in the real world that Asmo would probably enter the room and quickly went into it via TAR before Asmo.<br /><br />As the scene in WH shows Slayer is studying the area of his assassinations quite well in advance.<br /><br /><b> Notice too, that he did not hesitate to stab either one the second he entered the waking world. They were also asleep. </b> <br /><br />Anyway, as said Slayer did not hesitate to shoot Asmo dead.<br /><br /><b> I don't think you can convince me that he would give Asmo the chance to channel, just so he would know who was killing him. Slayer is more apt to stab you in the back if he had the chance, than to take on someone face-to-face. </b><br /><br />Slayer also takes the two BA face-to-face. Apparently only with his daggers. <br />Sure they could not channel but defend themselves or scream nevertheless.<br />Also it was possible that Rand or Min were awake, even if it's night. <br /><br />All this shows that Slayer takes controlled risks.  <br /><br />Furthermore it seems that his assassinations shall give him a certain thrill like his thoughts in WH indicate: &quot;With the poison, it was unlikely either would have had the strength to shout loudly enough to be heard outside the room, but he wanted to make this kill his own in a way that poison could not grant&quot;. <br /><br />Or: &quot;He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories&quot;. <br /><br />Finally: &quot;It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench.&quot;<br /><br />He also plays with Perrin in TSR.<br /><br />I have the impression that Slayer really appreciates the killing, it's a kind of art for him. <br />He wanted to kill Asmo in his special way.<br /><br />Besides, if you stab someone in the back or suddenly appear before him when he opens a door and shot is a similiar surprise effect. <br />In both cases you have no real chance to defend yourself; so the risk was not high. <br /><br />


created: 2004-01-10 13:37:46
subject: <b>We sure are milking this one.</b>
body:
I said I believe that Slayer can somehow find his victims, knows where they are. <br />One possibility I gave was that he can see from TAR, another would be that he uses TAR in a special way.<br /><br />Slayer does state that he was given special gifts, but not immunity to poison. He also thinks to himself that he can't use T'A'R as the Chosen can. I took this to mean that he can enter T'A'R in the flesh, w/o channeling or having to make a gateway. And he probably can't enter someone's dreams, from the look of it.<br /><br />Slayer could not know that Rand was in this room, nevertheless he found the room (though a bit late). <br />After his miss he says his patron he could try again to find Rand. How in a city like Far Madding?<br /><br />Looks as though he got info from someone, and it was old info at that. If he had found out where they were staying himself, he wouldn't have killed the wrong people. If the patron supplies him with new info, he can try again, is the way I interpret it.<br /><br />He also found the BA cell and in my view the Seal thieves in CoT.<br /><br />The AS had been being kept in those cells for three days, when they weren't being interrogated, and the cell didn't change locations in T'A'R. As for the seal thieves, I think you may be right about him killing them. However, they were probably supposed to meet him and hand over the seals once they got them. So he knew where they were going to be. The only question about this is though, why didn't they just send Slayer in to get the seals? He might have actually been able to do what the thieves weren't.<br /><br />I believe he knew that Asmo would enter through the door.<br /><br />This is a possibility, although there is no proof. I do believe, as you do, that Asmo's death was planned.  <br /><br />If indeed Slayer can't see or find his victims in TAR it was nevertheless possible that he saw in the real world that Asmo would probably enter the room and quickly went into it via TAR before Asmo.<br /><br />This is possible too. <br /><br />As the scene in WH shows Slayer is studying the area of his assassinations quite well in advance.<br /><br />Probably making sure that there were no chairs, etc. that might have been recently moved, to trip over when he stepped out of T'A'R. <br /><br />Notice too, that he did not hesitate to stab either one the second he entered the waking world. They were also asleep. <br /><br />Anyway, as said Slayer did not hesitate to shoot Asmo dead.<br /><br />If he was waiting behind a corner he knew Asmo was about to come around, he should have stabbed him before he got one word out, much less two. And I have seen Slayer use a bow that he made in T'A'R, but not a crossbow. In either case, these are not close range weapons. The poison from the daggers he used was fast-acting, and the two victims still managed to cry out, if not very loudly. <br /><br />I don't think you can convince me that he would give Asmo the chance to channel, just so he would know who was killing him. Slayer is more apt to stab you in the back if he had the chance, than to take on someone face-to-face. <br /><br />Slayer also takes the two BA face-to-face. Apparently only with his daggers. <br />Sure they could not channel but defend themselves or scream nevertheless.<br /><br />Two pretty defenseless women that are used to doing everything with the Power.<br /><br />Also it was possible that Rand or Min were awake, even if it's night.<br /><br />If they slept with their head out of the covers like most people do, and they were awake, they might have been able to put up a little bit of a fight.  <br /><br />All this shows that Slayer takes controlled risks.<br /><br />Small risks, IMO <br /><br />Furthermore it seems that his assassinations shall give him a certain thrill like his thoughts in WH indicate: &quot;With the poison, it was unlikely either would have had the strength to shout loudly enough to be heard outside the room, but he wanted to make this kill his own in a way that poison could not grant&quot;.<br /><br />I don't quite understand how this was special. All he did was stab them repeatedly w/o ever seeing their faces to know who they were, or letting them see who he was. What was so special? <br /><br />Or: &quot;He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories&quot;.<br /><br />&quot;But killing a Forsaken was even more special, because there were only eight in the whole world.&quot; At least, this is what I would have been thinking. <br /><br />Finally: &quot;It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench.&quot;<br /><br />Maybe next time. eh?<br /><br />He also plays with Perrin in TSR.<br /><br />As inexperienced as Perrin was, he should have died, but we couldn't have that.<br /><br />I have the impression that Slayer really appreciates the killing, it's a kind of art for him. <br />He wanted to kill Asmo in his special way.<br /><br />Stabbing him repeatedly with a blanket over his head? hehe<br /><br />Besides, if you stab someone in the back or suddenly appear before him when he opens a door and shot is a similiar surprise effect. <br />In both cases you have no real chance to defend yourself; so the risk was not high.<br /><br />He took one step inside the door. If he was hit with a bolt from a crossbow, it probably would have carried him back out into the courtyard. <br /><br />Of course that might explain how the word hung in the air when death took him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-10 16:49:04
subject: <b>I wonder...</b>
body:
I'm just wondering if weaves that are through a gateway can be sensed from the other side of the gateway.  For instance, if say Lanfear were to put a gateway up right behind that pantry door, and then smack Asmo around with some balefire, would someone close by on the other side of the door be able to sense it?


created: 2004-01-11 00:44:38
subject: <b>Interesting, but ....</b>
body:
I like the stuff on Lanfear's motivation, that's good. But I'm still not convinced.<br /><br />One: If there was no channeling after Lanfear and Moiraine went through the doorway (they went to separate points), why was it destroyed? This seems to me a major flaw in the theory.<br /><br />The second is Lanfear going back after she kills Asmo - highly unlikely!<br /><br />Another is Lanfear asking to whisked out just so she could kill Asmo - highly unlikely. She knows Asmo is weak and with Rand, she can track him at her own pace once free. <br /><br />I also think the DO getting all of one's memories when that person dies is unlikely. If so, wouldn't Lanfear know or suspect this, and want to keep Asmo alive, else her own traitorous act be revealed upon his death?<br /><br />If it was Lanfear, it happened differently than stated.<br />


created: 2004-01-11 00:56:24
subject: <b>Just want to add...</b>
body:
That it is never a good idea to spout off drunk.<br /><br />In all honesty Etzel, I have posted on both these theories without even reading the theory you had about Slayer, shame on me. I was mostly going by what I remembered from old Slayer theories. You have me there; I didn't understand where you were coming from. <br /><br />I have been a, heh, &quot;casual observer&quot; of Wotmania since CoT came out and left me sorely disappointed. I lost passion for this theory fun. When I came here the other day to read up on theories at work, I read the top most theory first, Columbo's. I never had time to read any of the others, and I posted my little bits. I came back later to check on that long blackboard, and honestly, I never read all the comments of that either (most of them though). <br /><br />Then last night, after wife went to bed, I read Homicide Reloaded, and posted the anti-slayer stuff. All without still realizing you wrote a Slayer vs. Greandal theory just below them. <br /><br />Anyway, long story short, I again slap myself on the wrist for not reading everything before opening my mou... err keyboard. You are right, I didn't understand all your slayer points, and I just realized tonight you put up a theory about him. It is late again, and I don't have time to read it right now, but I am going to read all these theories, and blackboard comments, before spouting off anymore drivel. <br /><br />Light In The Night, you always add the best fuel to the fire, great post. Dang, I really need to catch up on my WoT. It is happening though, The New New Spring is rekindling my flame. I can't imagine re-reading WoT again so soon, I have just come discover other book series, but I do so enjoy this theory stuff.<br /><br />Thanks for the great discussion all!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-11 01:22:22
subject: <b>Graendal did it, part 23048564</b>
body:
Looks like most of you assume that whoever killed Asmo, did it after following a thoughtout from before plan, he/she came to the palace with the intention to kill Asmo and did just that.<br /> I find this very hard to believe. The death of Asmodean has always looked to me as the result of a random encounter between him and his killer. Remember he was wandering around in the palace, looking for a pantry, and himslef had no idea where he was going next. It's virtually impossible for the killer to have predicted his route. How the hell those Eelfinn could've send Lanfear right in front of him(if we suppose Lanfear did it)? I don't think that they are that mighty. And if they are  in fact so mighty, why  didn't Lanfear ask of them the Eelfinn themselves to just kill Asmo instantly(which obviously didn't happen, because he knew his murderer)? <br /> If we suppose it was Slayer, he has been very unprofessional in his approach. He let his victim see him, he gives Asmo time to react and say &quot;You?!No!&quot; when he could've easily killed Asmo in his sleep or make ana ambush in some place where Asmo is supposed to come through eventually(for example the paasageway to the Throne room)? He knows the palace, he's an expert assasin, this shouldn't prove too big a problem for him.<br /><br /> The Granedal scenario is far more likely-she comes to the Palace(either she's late for a meeting with Rahvin or knowing of his death, she has come to take a look around in the chaos of the palace and take everything of potential value to her in the chaos-she did the same in Illian after Rand took it from Sammael), wanders through it and suddenly she accidently bumps in asmo, she's more wary than him and immediately embraces saidar, balefire and Asmo's gone. The simplest explanation. That explains why the murder happened on that particular day and why it happened in this way(balefire and while Asmo was wandering around the palace not knowing where to go). <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-11 15:24:42
subject: <b>More about Slayer</b>
body:
To Light in the Night,<br /><br /><b> Slayer does state that he was given special gifts, but not immunity to poison. He also thinks to himself that he can't use T'A'R as the Chosen can. I took this to mean that he can enter T'A'R in the flesh, w/o channeling or having to make a gateway. And he probably can't enter someone's dreams, from the look of it. </b><br /><br />Yes, Slayer can enter TAR in the flesh. Hopper says it. Plus, he has the typical unhuman scent.  <br /><br />Fain says somewhere in TSR that he has troubles in his dreams after Slayer arrived in the Two Rivers. <br />But I'm not sure if Slayer is really responsible for this.<br /><br /><b> Looks as though he got info from someone, and it was old info at that. If he had found out where they were staying himself, he wouldn't have killed the wrong people. If the patron supplies him with new info, he can try again, is the way I interpret it. </b><br /><br />I understand it so that Slayer could maybe find Rand but the patron doesn't want it now.<br /><br /><b> The AS had been being kept in those cells for three days, when they weren't being interrogated, and the cell didn't change locations in T'A'R. As for the seal thieves, I think you may be right about him killing them. However, they were probably supposed to meet him and hand over the seals once they got them. So he knew where they were going to be. The only question about this is though, why didn't they just send Slayer in to get the seals? He might have actually been able to do what the thieves weren't. </b><br /><br />That the Shadow didn't send Slayer, SH or a Forsaken to take the Seals <i> is </i> strange. <br /><br />I can only imagine that it was a first, still quite careful test of Rand's defense because the DO was not sure if the Seals are in Bashere's and Dobraine's hands.<br /><br /><b> Probably making sure that there were no chairs, etc. that might have been recently moved, to trip over when he stepped out of T'A'R. </b><br /><br />I think as an assassin he wants to be prepared and studies the areas of his assassinations before he hits as WH shows us. <br />If that's right he certainly did the same in the Caemlyn palace.<br />We also saw several times that Slayer likes to spy on other people.<br /><br />I believe he saw Asmo, knew that if Asmo would enter through this door he could kill him without anybody noticing it. So he went to this room in TAR and appeared before Asmo, the crossbow in his hand.<br /><br />If Asmo had not opened this door, Slayer had just waited for another chance.   <br /><br /><b> If he was waiting behind a corner he knew Asmo was about to come around, he should have stabbed him before he got one word out, much less two. And I have seen Slayer use a bow that he made in T'A'R, but not a crossbow. In either case, these are not close range weapons. The poison from the daggers he used was fast-acting, and the two victims still managed to cry out, if not very loudly. </b><br /><br />He took a crossbow in TDR, ch.15, maybe tried to kill Nynaeve &amp; Egwene with it (if it wasn't the Gray Man).<br />I think it's really not far-fetched that an assassin like Slayer can use a crossbow if he can also use a bow. <br /><br />I think Slayer did not want to stab Asmo or kill him from behind.<br /><br /><b> I don't quite understand how this was special. All he did was stab them repeatedly w/o ever seeing their faces to know who they were, or letting them see who he was. What was so special? </b><br /><br />It was an extremely brutal killing. Almost like the mess he did with the BA.<br /><br />My point is that Slayer is a psychopath. <br />His PoV shows us that he isn't an unemotional killing-machine but someone who really appreciates his &quot;buisness&quot;. <br /><br />Slayer thinks e.g. &quot;he always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during.&quot;<br />He kills for the lust to kill but also needs a certain thrill. <br />Apparently to kill a person in a very brutal way is something he likes very much. <br /><br />But sometimes he can't kill in this way.<br />In Asmo's case Slayer had to be quick because Asmo could channel and Slayer had to bring the body out of the palace before someone notices it. <br /><br />Another example were the Seal thieves in Bashere's camp. The victims were two armed men, who had to be killed quickly since Bashere's men searched for them. <br />Thus Slayer had no other choice than to stab them from behind. <br />But he does it at least simultaneously with two very precise and difficult strikes, which was surely also something Slayer liked and gave him a certain buzz.<br /><br />Slayer also likes to frighten people as he does with the BA (&quot;the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories&quot; ).  <br /><br />Slayer couldn't kill Asmo as he wanted, he only could get his thrill by suddenly appearing before him and so frighten his victim at least. Even, or better just <i> because </i> it was a little risky.<br />Maybe he wanted to renew the memory of the feeling he got shortly before he killed the BA.   <br /><br />Finally Slayer shows that he prefers certain victims for his own reasons. <br /><br />He looked forward to kill Rand &amp; Min, apparently because of his blood relationship to Rand: &quot;It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench&quot;.<br /><br />On the other hand, to kill a Gray Man doesn't give him much: &quot;It was not as it was with those slimy Gray Men, whom you just did not notice. He had killed one of them, once, in the White Tower itself. They felt cold and empty to the touch. It had been like killing a corpse.&quot; <br /><br />It's no fun.<br /><br />Slayer especially appreciates to kill Aes Sedai, in my view because they <i> are Aes Sedai </i>. <br /><br />Both of his personalities have reasons to hate Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Luc was sent by the AS Gitara into the Blight where his old single alter ego &quot;died&quot;. <br />He was also seperated from his sister with this.<br /><br />If you have read the original NS, you will know that Lan disliked/hated the AS because he thought, they didn't come to help Malkier and therefore were also responsible for its destruction.<br /><br />The same is true for Isam in my view. <br />We see him in TAR wearing Malkier fashion. <br />This shows that, although Slayer stands on the side of the Shadow, he still feels somehow connected to his Malkieri roots. <br />He hates the Aes Sedai as well for the same reason like Lan (of course, actually the Shadow was responsible but in Isam's mind the AS are guilty).<br /><br />Plus, if he was trained by the Shadow, as it seems, it's likely that he learned some Shadow &quot;propaganda&quot; against AS. <br /><br />Therefore I believe the explanation that Slayer loves to kill AS for personal reasons makes more sense, than that Slayer just prefers to kill more powerful channelers or people who stand higher in the Shadow's hierachy.<br /><br />This explains why Slayer &quot;especially enjoyed&quot; &amp; remembers the killing of the two simple (&quot;neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often&quot; ), but not the murder of one of the few Forsaken.<br /><br />Maybe Slayer was even a bit disappointed that he has to kill Asmo because it's one potential patron less who could rent him for a nice assassination... <br /><br /><b> He took one step inside the door. If he was hit with a bolt from a crossbow, it probably would have carried him back out into the courtyard. <br /><br />Of course that might explain how the word hung in the air when death took him. </b><br /><br />Yub.<br /><br /><br />To Windsor,<br /><br />It's ok. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2004-01-11 17:37:41
subject: <b>Still Not Buying It</b>
body:
I still don't buy that Lanfear did it. I think &quot;The Wheel of Time FAQ&quot; at http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jsdougan/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html offers the best analysis of the situation, and they argue fairly convincingly that Lanfear did not do it. The FAQ leans towards Slayer as the culprit, but does not say that this is known with certainty. I am still waiting for a completely flawless explanation of who killed Asmodean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-11 18:34:40
subject: <b>Meltdown</b>
body:
Another problem I can see is that Lanfear lost her Angreal when she was channeling everything she could via it. So she had more OP in her than she could handle. So in theory there should have been either huge explosion or at least she should have been burned out. In fact if there was an explosion that would explain why that door melted. It would also explain why Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear and why Finns could hold her prisoner.<br /> Besides I think that Lanfear died like all channelers who lost their ability to channel. Or she either made suicide or withered away. However when DO recycled her she got her ability to channel back but bc Healing was done by a female she had to pay same price than Siuan.<br />Naturally if I am correct Lanfear is innocent<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-12 04:36:23
subject: <b>Here's a ... GENUINE comment, rather than rabid flaming for or against...</b>
body:
I really don't want to get back into this discussion as it's really dried out for me with regards to new or original statements. Either people are OPEN to the theory being slightly plausible, or they're just hell bent against it and MINDLESSLY fighting tooth and nail to bring it down. And using old and boring ammo too.<br /><br />Just one thing i want to mention. This is NOT to the 'no to Lanfear' campaigners. It's just a genuine comment to anyone who is interested in REAL discussion. Columbo mentioned Finnland being one place. Ael and Eel (sp.) both being residents in the same dimension, possibly the same world, though in control of separate regions of abode. I don't think Finnland is ANY extension of TAR, but is just another dimension, like myriad others, that co-exist with the one we read about. TAR has the properties enabling it to link some of these other dimensions, not just probabilities and possible timelines, but also some entirely and otherwise unrelated dimensions of existence. But that's as far as TAR goes with this.<br /><br />Now, when people ask about doorways, possible exits, where is Moiraine and what will her wishes have been yada yada... I get this wonderful imagery in my mind, of a colourful and monstrous Faeryland where the very landscape is a twisted puzzle infathomable to us humans. Columbo mentioned Lanfear may have been forced to travel this crazy landscape to the Ael (i get the two, Ael and Eel, mixed up but u know who i mean) and barter with them in turn in order to use the exit on their land. It occurred to me Lanfear and Moiraine, separated of course, could have been forced to trek and traverse some of the nastiest, utterly nightmarish territory in order to get out of there. Lanfear is cannier than Mo about other worlds, and somehow, possibly through her bargaining or her knowledge has made it out quicker. Whereas Mo is stuck in a pickle and will need her butt rescued.<br /><br />Lanfear, with all her skills, knowledge and tough spirit still got a raw deal, had a rough time and managed to escape, but not unscathed. Mo is a tough cookie too, but lacked some of Lanfear's skill and knowledge and has become bogged down and thus detained a little longer than she may have liked.<br /><br />All in all, i think there could be a wonderful book all of its own entitled 'The Adventures of Mo in the Land of the Faery'. Not written by RJ, i hope, or we'll have 'She stared at him stonily with a flat-eyed gaze' and descriptions of Finn clothing etc the whole way through 25 novels 1000 pages each.<br /><br />Anyway, thought i'd get that idea down on the blackboard before i abandon this theory discussion for good. You either think it's a possibility or you don't, but it IS just a theory guys, no need to drag it down into repetition and kill it with the same old pronouncements of why it's so wrong. If you don't think it was Lanfear then fine, take a breather guys.<br /><br />And i tried to re-read FoH, but i can't bring myself to get passed the first page of the prologue... when i flicked through to find the scene of contention i glimpsed all those old passages about people sniffing, lace and 'Men!'. I can't do it. I'm sorry. I can't. Sorry. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-12 05:05:44
subject: <b>How about this?</b>
body:
OK here is the scene, your aes sedai has just been killed by a female forsaken you are in the palace getting supplies ready to bail. In walks a man your aes sedai knew was a forsaken. I think Lan knew as well and when he opened the pantry death took him.


created: 2004-01-12 08:42:43
subject: <b>I like it but I don't agree</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I like this theory, but I don't agree.<br />When I read the scene at first, I tought it was Rand/Lews, not Lanfear. I thought she was dead or something like that. (Ok I'm not a great thinker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Why I still think that it's Lews.<br /><br />Who have a motive to kill Asmo : Lews and Lanfear.<br />The others have no personnal motive.<br /><br />Who could really surprise Asmo: Lews (using Rand body with MoM), Lanfear. They are thought disappeared.<br />For the other Forsaken, Asmo know that they could be looking for him.<br /><br />Who know where is Asmo (in which area) : Lews/Rand<br /><br />Who could use his power undetected : Lews/Rand.<br /><br />Who could be prepared to kill Asmo at any moment, at soon he saw him : Lews.<br /><br />So for me, it's Lews using Rand body.<br /><br />But, for the fact I like the way Colombo presented his theory, if it's not Lews/Rand, I hope that it's Lanfear.<br /><br />P'tit Dino


created: 2004-01-12 11:25:43
subject: <b>well honestly,</b>
body:
this theory has made me re-read TFoH again, and i can honestly rule out lanfear as the culprit. i have a ton of quotes, and plan on posting a theory about it once i make sense out of them all.<br /><br />and with all these quotes, no nitpicking, just facts and basic assumptions, and i DO mean basic (eg, cyndane was held by the finn's, which i assume means she wasnt killed instantly)<br /><br />uhh... as i started saying, with all these facts, it narrows down to slayer, graendal or X. (X being someone else, it could have been lan, bela or a resurrected narg dammit)<br /><br />columbo, LitN, you/we need a full on chat one day, and hash it out in real-time. lets make it happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-12 16:54:23
subject: <b>Nice One Ptit Dino!</b>
body:
How cool would that be if Rand is occasionally getting taken over by Lews.<br /><br />Me, Myself and Ilenya! <br /><br />Still I don't buy it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-12 20:05:24
subject: <b>I don't think so Mussells....</b>
body:
....I'm not interested in talking with someone that doesn't have listening skills.  Sorry, just not interested in having to repeat the same thing over and over just to have you ask the same questions over and over.  You read the FOH that quick?  I hope your serious about posting a theory, but I don't think you are, are you?<br /><br />Iram_k - Its unfortunate but true.  Thanks for your feedback, it's nice to see someone post something worth while.  It's obvious that your interested in seeing where this might lead? I appreciate you comments, very insightfull.<br /><br />1. The Homicide - Written with three things in mind.  First and always important in any murder, show motive.  Second RJ said we had enough evidense up to the end of tFOH.  Third, that as RJ said &quot; It should be intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer&quot;.<br /><br />2. The Homicide Reloaded - This edition is not restricted to the end of FOH, allows for evidense gathered in later books.  Looked closer at Lanfear's motive and how she might have had returned, which showed two possibilities.<br /><br />I hope you enjoyed!<br /><br />Thanks to all those that took the time to read the theory and comment on the blackboard!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-12 22:14:12
subject: <b>Excellent Theory, Congrats</b>
body:
Thank you for clearing all that up Columbo, it makes much more sense now.<br /><br />I definately think the most interesting thing in the whole thing is what happened in Finnland, what were the exact deals? but we'll have to RAFO.<br /><br />One question though, (I honestly don't know. Sorry if you addressed it already, I skipped some of the blackboard posts) is it possible, after killing Asmo, she didn't go back to Finnland?  I just didn't see why she needed to.<br /><br />Anyway, a wonderful post and thankyou for fighting with reasoning, it's a breathe of fresh air.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-12 22:27:48
subject: <b>Borderland Peasent</b>
body:
Does the handle reflect a humble person?<br />I'm happy you enjoyed the theory!<br /><br />I can't answer your question because I'm not sure what happened after she killed Asmodean.  One thing we do know for sure is Lanfear has returned.  Why she has the new body I'm not certain, but the fact that she has returned only strenghthens my belief that she is the one that killed Asmodean.<br /><br />Thanks for your feedback Borderland Peasent,<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-13 08:46:33
subject: <b>Robert Jordan's comments, from Wot FAQs...</b>
body:
Here's what he has to say regarding Asmodean, from the 'RAFO' files. Apart from RAFO, some of his answers hold hints:<br /><br />Asmodean<br /><br />&#8226;  Who offed Asmodean? <br /><br />Read and find out, guys.<br /><br />&#8226;  On the discussion boards in the SF/F area, one of the hottest topics of debate is the question of who killed Asmodean. Can you shed any light on the subject?<br /><br />Yes... but I won't.  Read and find out!<br /><br />&#8226;  Who killed Asmodean? <br /><br />RAFO. All clues are included up to The Fires of heaven.<br /> <br />&#8226;  It has been alleged that you've said we already have enough information to determine who killed Asmodean. However, this is still a mystery to most of your readers. Will there be more clues, or perhaps an all-out revelation, of the answer to this whodunit? <br /><br />Read and find out...more is coming, read and find out.<br /><br />&#8226;  Any hints on who killed Asmodean?<br /><br />The Asmodean question? I've said time and again that there is enough evidence for you guys to figure out who killed Asmodean. I have, since Asmodean's death, put in a few more clues. The evidence is there, if not exactly listed with flaming arrows pointing to it. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.<br /> <br />&#8226;  You once said that all the info needed for solving Asmodean was there by the end of The Fires of Heaven. Does this eliminate a Gholam from being a suspect? It's generally believed that a Gholam was responsible for the murder of Lord Barthanes in The Great Hunt and the two black sisters in The Shadow Rising, but I don't think it mentions a name. <br /><br />Read And Find Out. (Editor&#8217;s Note: Yes, the Gholam is eliminated because there was no mention of a Gholam beforehand. Also, in Winter&#8217;s Heart, the two Black Sisters were revealed to have been killed by Slayer.<br /> <br />&#8226;  I know you've said we have enough information to figure it out for ourselves, but, are you ever going to come right out and say who(or what)killed Asmodean?<br /><br />Read And Find Out.<br /><br />&#8226;  Could you please give finally &quot;reveal all&quot; about who killed Asmodean at the end of the fifth book of your series? Much speculation has been bandied about, and you have said yourself you have given us enough clues, so could you put said speculation to rest? <br /><br />No. I will not put the speculation to rest! I'm rather entertained by the speculation, actually.<br /><br />&#8226;  Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him. <br /><br />I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.<br />(Editor&#8217;s Note: It doesn&#8217;t look like we&#8217;ll ever get an answer for this one. The only way is to work it out for ourselves; Jordan&#8217;s having way too much fun watching us try to figure it out.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-13 08:48:13
subject: <b>And...</b>
body:
...Although this is an entirely different topic he was questioned about, again note his wording in the answer:<br /><br />The general consensus seems to be that the Bowl of Winds caused the weirdness in the power around Ebou Dar. Do we know enough at this time to determine the true cause or do we have to RAFO more info? <br /><br />I think you know enough by this point. It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. I always hated it when my math professors said that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-13 09:02:51
subject: <b>AND... (sorry)</b>
body:
Here are some other comments on topics that have been touched upon by people in the discussions on this blackboard and the previous 'Homicide' Theory blackboard:<br /><br />Is it possible to go to the Dreamworld in the flesh, and take something with you out through the Gateway? <br /><br />No.<br /><br /><br />&#8226;  Is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?<br /><br />Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.<br /> <br />&#8226;  Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. The True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.<br /> <br />&#8226;  Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?<br /><br />No one can tell if you're using the True Power, except the Dark One, of course.<br /><br /><br />What was going on in Finnland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they travelling in time?<br /><br />Not travelling in time. The physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is *REALLY* bad. You cannot go to Finnland in Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod (similar to Stedding).<br /><br /><br />When did Mat Die and Live again? He said something that implied that the Die and Live again prophecy fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising. When did Mat Die and Live again? He said something that implied that the Die and Live again prophecy fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising.<br /><br /><br />&#8226;  All of Min's viewing have come true except one does this mean she is no longer infallible?<br /><br />No, it doesn't. And actually, that's not quite true, that all of her viewings have come true but one.<br /> <br />&#8226;  Are Min&#8217;s visions absolute foretellings or probabilities? <br /><br />Her visions are absolute foretellings. The problem is, she doesn't always know what it means. The only changes from that are two visions she's had which indicated the possibility of the future forking, an &quot;either/or.&quot; And that's the only time she's ever had anything like that. <br />&#8226;  Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the 7 towers around Lan in The Eye of the World? <br /><br />Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And here's what the Wot FAQs has to say about RJ's 'RAFO' answers:<br /><br />&#8226;	Can&#8217;t Spill the Beans- Jordan is planning something, or may be planning something involving the question. Giving us a proper answer may well just ruin the surprise. <br />&#8226;	Silly People- Sometimes he won&#8217;t answer a question because he feels that we should already know the answer. He likes to leave clues, and if we can&#8217;t pick them up, well we might pick it up the second time round. These are more accurately known as &#8216;Re-Read And Find Out&#8217;. I left most of these out when compiling this collection because some were too obvious. The others, while some may be obvious, have been major areas of discussion in the past.<br />&#8226;	He&#8217;s Sadistic- RJ sometimes likes to mess with our minds with things that he believes we can work out, though not without careful study and hours of deliberation. See some of the Asmodean RAFOs for an example of what I mean.<br />&#8226;	The X-Files- These just fall under the category of &#8216;I don&#8217;t have a clue why he said that&#8217;. Maybe he just gets RAFO-happy. <br />Here&#8217;s what Jordan has to say. One quote is from a chat transcript, an the other taken from a report of a bookstore signing:<br />&#8226;  Does RAFO mean you don't know how it will turn out, or do you want to keep us in suspense?<br /><br />I want to keep you in suspense. If I give away all of the secrets, sooner or later you guys are going to start saying &quot;Well I know all of this stuff. He's really gotten boring!&quot;<br />&#8226;  Some of the &quot;Read-and-find-out answers&quot; are partly due to that there are things that might happen, not decided yet, in future books. He also saw it as a way to diminish the reader's reading experience due to narrowing his view of the future works. And he was vastly amused by our loony theories.<br />The questions are organized into categories, just to make things easier. You may feel that a lot of these are obvious, but sometimes it&#8217;s easy to miss things, and some things are not quite as simple as they seem. Telling you which is which would just spoil the fun of RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-13 09:47:58
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
yes i am working on a theory, i just dont have the time to hash it up it in or two days.<br /><br />i am not asking you to repeat yourself, you have NEVER stated a good reason why the finns would release lanfear, then take her back, OR an explanation for the cyndane quote proving she was held captive.<br /><br />some of your other points are quite good, i liked the theory, but this is the hugest flaw in it, please enlighten me as to why you think it unimportant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-13 11:50:55
subject: <b>iram_k...</b>
body:
...agian you prove very resourceful.  Thanks for taking the time to post the very relavent information.  It reinforces the fact that we have everything we need to solve the mystery up to the end of the FOH.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 22:06:56
subject: <b>Has anyone considered . . . . . .</b>
body:
I have always been a Lanfear man myself, so it's good to see it set down here. Good work. Forgive me if someone had already mentioned this, there are too many comments to read them all but has anyone considered this.<br /><br />Lanfear makes a deal with the Finns to go back and finish what she started, however, as with Mat, what she gets is not quite what she thinks she is asking for, so the Finns send her back to Asmo rather than her intended target of Aviendha.<br /><br />Just a possibility that I thought I'd throw up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 01:25:00
subject: <b>Hey guys. Sorry I've been MIA</b>
body:
But now it's time to kick some arse, so for all you peeps out there who are onboard the Slayer/Graendal bandwagon, it's time to answer some questions under the heat lamp.<br /><br /><b><i><u>I AM THE LIGHTNING!!!</u></i></b><br /><br />Made me sound badass, didn't it? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><u>To all of you who would cite Slayer or Graendal as the killer, please answer the following questions <b>without</b> sidetracking or avoiding the questions.Also, please keep in mind that these questions should be answered with evidence only up to and including FoH.</u><br /><br />1. How did they know exactly where Asmo was at the time? Another way of asking: how did they know that he would be in that section of the Palace at the moment? In fact, how did they know he would have been in the Palace at all? After all, Rand could have sent him off to work on his own, the way Forsaken do...<br /><br />2. What were they doing in the Palace (and in the case of Graendal, why did she not Travel out of there during the fighting? Keep in mind, please, that travelling out AFTER the battle would be more dangerous than during, as without the hectic fighting such weaves would be easier to trace)?<br /><br />3. Why was Asmo horrified of them?<br /><br />4. What was their motive?<br /><br />5. How did word get back to the DO so quickly after they did it (LoC starts the next day)?<br /><br />SLAYER EXCLUSIVE QUESTIONS:<br /><br />6. Who sent him after Asmo, and how did he/she know where Asmo was and what he was up to?<br /><br />7.How did RJ set him up as the killer? At this point I believe we knew that he was a DF, but not that he was an assassin (comes in WH). Could you please quote exactly how RJ set him up? For Lanfear Columbo has pointed out thebalefire marks and his thoughts, so lets hear about Slayer.<br /><br />GRAENDAL EXCLUSIVE QUESTIONS:<br /><br />8. If Graendal was one of the servants in the hall and Sammael was the other, why did they not double (or triple, with Rahvin) team Rand? They could have gotten him easily.<br /><br />9. How did she get into/out of the Palace, and please don't say TP because that is a WEAK excuse. Lanfear would have to get in and out for revenge, Granedal would not have risked it when she had such a good position elsewhere.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And that's about it for that, thought I do have one more thing to say on this theory.<br /><br />There was someone (can't remember who) that said that Lanfear would get off in a court of law, but that makes zero sense. All we have to go on is the logical evidence from the books (I sound like a White. lol), and therefore we can convict on the basis of reasonable motive/intent/ability at the time. If we can't convict Lanfear because of a 'reasonable doubt' then who CAN we convict? There is doubt for EVERYONE. The only thing that's really against Lanfear is that &quot;it doesn't fit with her character,&quot; which is all a matter of interpretation and not not subject to conclusive debate at all. These objections often rise from the fact that there is a reasonable doubt as to their intentions, and once you get into questioning THAT you'll never find a solution.<br /><br />Let me put that another way: OJ can get off because of Reasonable Doubt, the reason being that this is reality where we can get a thousand pages of evidence and testimony from one witness. This is not something we can do in Randland (sorry for the term, but I HATE Westlands more). There, and especially in the case of Asmodean, we have to take the evidence we're given and not speculate on whether or not RJ was full of brown when he told us that it was obvious. &quot;Obvious&quot; connotates Red Herrings right out the door.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><b>Windsor</b><br /><br />My main man, how have you been? Long time no speak! I'll NB you soon so we can catch up on some WoT stuff. Reading NS, I presume? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 13:11:59
subject: <b>A Possible Scenario</b>
body:
First off, nice theory (s). I used to be a Lanfear person, then Grendal for a long time. I was intrigued by the Slayer theory, but it just didn&#8217;t seem all that likely. Now I think I support the Lanfear theories again..<br /><br />Many people have asked: why would the Finns let her leave? Especially if she was evil?<br /><br />I have a scenario here that just might answer that question.<br /><br />Once in the land of the *Finn, Lanfear approaches the appropriate people and asks to be allowed to return to kill an enemy. She offers some of her power as the price she will pay. Her other 2 questions are not really important in this scenario.<br /> <br />The Finns send her to where Asmo is/will be. Realizing that the use of Saidar will alert most other channelers to her actions, Lanfear chooses to use the T.P. (The use of the T.P. is not intuitively obvious, but hear me out anyway) to balefire Asmo. If she makes a small enough weave, and aims it right, no one would notice the damage to the walls, as there is already much damage there.<br /><br />When Lanfear seizes the T.P., the D.O. is suddenly aware of her every action (killing Asmo). (purely hypothetical)<br /><br />The Finns are also aware of the T.P., and kill her for her association with the D.O., but not before Asmo has been balefired.<br /><br />Once she is dead, the D.O. chooses to give her a new body and a &#8220;Last Chance&#8221; for her service to the dark side. The D.O. is unable to alter the amount of power she has, so she stays with the power she had left, &#8220;After the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her.&#8221;<br /><br />Since time passes differently in Finn land than RL, Lanfear would feel the she had been held for a long time. Long enough for her rage to be replaced by panic - what if someone else got to Asmo first? For this she is willing to give up her current body and some of her power, and this is where she makes the deal with the Finn that I outlined at the start.<br /><br />I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm simply saying this is what may have happened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 15:15:41
subject: <b>nope, nuh-uh</b>
body:
If Lanfear appears to have died in the fight with Moiraine, why would it be &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; that she showed up to kill Asmodean a just few hours later?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 18:54:00
subject: <b>My answers</b>
body:
&quot;1. How did they know exactly where Asmo was at the time? Another way of asking: how did they know that he would be in that section of the Palace at the moment? In fact, how did they know he would have been in the Palace at all? After all, Rand could have sent him off to work on his own, the way Forsaken do...&quot;<br /><br /> My opinion has always been that Graendal was there for a different reason and her meeting with Asmo was completely by chance.<br /><br />&quot;2. What were they doing in the Palace (and in the case of Graendal, why did she not Travel out of there during the fighting? Keep in mind, please, that travelling out AFTER the battle would be more dangerous than during, as without the hectic fighting such weaves would be easier to trace)?&quot;<br /> <br /> Either looking for something to loot(like she did in Illian after Sammael's death) or she's just come in late for the meeting with Rahvin and is wandering throught the Palace looking for clues what's going on. She didn't Travel out during the battle because she arrived after it(the battle was not long at all IIRC).<br /><br />&quot;3. Why was Asmo horrified of them?&quot;<br /><br /> Because Graendal is a Forsaken and he's a traitor.<br /><br />&quot;4. What was their motive?&quot;<br /> Self-defence, mostly. Graendal didn't know Asmo had a shield on and attacked first with all she had.<br /><br />&quot;5. How did word get back to the DO so quickly after they did it (LoC starts the next day)?&quot;<br /> Graendal reported to him.<br /><br /> 8. If Graendal was one of the servants in the hall and Sammael was the other, why did they not double (or triple, with Rahvin) team Rand? They could have gotten him easily.<br /> The servants have nothing to do with it IMO.<br /><br /> 9. How did she get into/out of the Palace, and please don't say TP because that is a WEAK excuse. Lanfear would have to get in and out for revenge, Granedal would not have risked it when she had such a good position elsewhere.<br /><br /> Gateway, that's how the Forsaken always travel. It's not so usually sensed by the other female chanellers as many seem to think IMO and there was only one really inexperienced one around by that time-Aviendha.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 14:51:38
subject: <b>what zeratul said</b>
body:
read the title.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 21:24:49
subject: <b>nmaria27 did you read the theories!?</b>
body:
nmaria27, Columbo posted to excellent theories stating and going over that.  It's okay if you don't agree with it but I beleive he made it quite clear how it would be &quot;obvious.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 23:40:18
subject: <b>you know....</b>
body:
....if you start making up theories based on hyperthetical situations based on MoM, the time differences in Finnland and the World of Dreams, the True Power, etc etc you can prove anything.<br /><br />I submitted a theory that didn't get posted (with good reason) that it was the mistress of sevants (is her name mistress Halfour) that killed Asmodean in a drunken fight over the last bottle of wine and smuggled his body out of the palace.<br /><br />My hyperthetical situation goes something like this. <br /><br />Asmodean, already drunk, enters the cellar (or is it pantry) and sees the Misress of servants pilfering the last bottle of wine. You see she is really upset that her palace has been trashed and all her servants have ran off; she needed to drown her sorrows.<br /><br />&quot;You,&quot;he says. It is an accusation, not the recognition everyone seems to think it is. Then he notices a horrifing fact. ALL THE OTHER BOTTLES OF WINE HAVE BEEN DESTROYED IN RAND AND RAHVINS BATTLE. &quot;Impossible!&quot; He says in denial. He can't believe there is nothing left to drink!<br /><br />The mistress of servants panics. She's just been caught getting drunk by the Dragons own Bard. She leaps at Asmodean brandishing the last bottle of wine as a weapon. &quot;NO!&quot; screams Asmodean, more fearing the loss of the last of the wine then in fear of his life.<br /><br />But a long life of cleaning and scrubbing has given the mistress of sevants uncanny strength and she delivers a terrible blow to Asmodeans temple killing him instantly. Death takes him as his scream still echos.<br /><br />The mistress of servants still has enough contacts in the palace to smuggle the body out, has a hang over the next morning and resumes her duties as if nothing ever happened. <br /><br />Hey, it has less holes in it then all these Lanfear, Grendal, Slayer etc etc theories.<br /><br />Just trying to make a point. We can make anything up... But really we are going to have to RAFO<br /><br />peace<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-19 16:07:38
subject: <b>Taint makes an excellent point...</b>
body:
I really do agree with you, though i seem to have been swept away with all the bickering myself.<br /><br />One point to the Graendal camp... You say Graendal was supposed to be meeting Rahvin that day...<br /><br />Can i just remind you all that Rahvin was bait. Willing bait, in a scheme cooked up by himself, Graendal and Sammael. Remember? Caemlyn was a trap. Rand thought he was being goaded into going for Sam, so he thought he'd be clever and hop on over to do in Rahvin instead. But all the trollocs were hiding behind the walls, poised and ready for Rand et al.<br /><br />Sam and Graendal were meant to team up with Rahvin in a link, but they did the dirty on him or somet. So. Graendal knew there was going to be a battle, she didn't just blunder in for her meeting with Rahvin. I can accept she may have been hiding out on purpose, waiting to loot Rahvin's palace of any 'toys'. But when she looted Sam it was specifically bcz he of all the FS was lording over the fact he's found at least one stash in stasis... he had a lot of goodies to loot. Tear likewise, for different reasons. Rahvin was not an obvious target for looting, but maybe she was just being meticulous.<br /><br />Still. How is she intuitively obvious? There is no mention, no hint, anywhere of Graendal. She Povs extensively in the next few books... not a single hint or clue that she BF or murdered a fellow FS, the traitor Asmo himself. Not once did she contemplate Asmo's location by Rand's side. Nothing. Also, someone with a better memory needs to remind us why she and Sam bailed on Rahvin, and then suggest why she would allow herself to be anywhere near Rahvin's vicinity so soon after the battle... what if he had won, how would he feel about Graendal? How could she know so soon about Rand's victory and be sure enough to go to Caemlyn? Wouldn't it take her a while to check and double check that Rahvin was history?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-19 23:34:45
subject: <b>Borderland Peasant:</b>
body:
Yes, I read both of Columbo's theories.  I was halfway convinced by the first one, then I reverted to non-belief after the second.  I just put up the point that keeps going around in my head.  <br /><br />All due respect, Columbo, you did a FANTASTIC job explaining and defending your theories, but I' think my best bet is still to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 21:42:11
subject: <b>Answers to your answers</b>
body:
<b>My opinion has always been that Graendal was there for a different reason and her meeting with Asmo was completely by chance.</b><br /><br />Ah. &quot;Opinion.&quot; Okay. &quot;Chance.&quot; Yup.<br /><br /><b>Either looking for something to loot(like she did in Illian after Sammael's death) or she's just come in late for the meeting with Rahvin and is wandering throught the Palace looking for clues what's going on. She didn't Travel out during the battle because she arrived after it(the battle was not long at all IIRC).</b><br /><br />Loot what? Sammy had found a stasis box and that was known to her. What was she raiding from Rahvin? Oh, and yeah: I can see a forsaken just wandering the halls of the Dragon's newly conquered palace, passing balefire marks and just ignorantly continuing a &quot;possible&quot; search for stuff that she has no clue would be there.<br /><br /><b>Because Graendal is a Forsaken and he's a traitor.</b><br /><br />Yes, but Graendal being there does not mean that he would be in danger of death. She could have taken him to the DO or anything like that. No, he knew he was going to die, right then and there. &quot;Intuitively obvious.&quot;<br /><br /><b>Self-defence, mostly. Graendal didn't know Asmo had a shield on and attacked first with all she had.</b><br /><br />Right. So, during her wanderings for loot she just happened to lock herself in the pantry and just happened to run into Asmo. We all know where Kings, Queens, and Forsaken hide treasure: the pantry, right next to the Salteens.<br /><br /><b>Graendal reported to him.</b><br /><br />Quote? At least we know that at some point Lanfear was given a Last Chance. I'd say they're even in this regard but this point shouldn't even come up because graendal is out of the equation wbecause of two simple words: &quot;Intuitively Obvious.&quot;<br /><br /><b>Gateway, that's how the Forsaken always travel. It's not so usually sensed by the other female chanellers as many seem to think IMO and there was only one really inexperienced one around by that time-Aviendha.</b><br /><br />Okay. This pesky &quot;Opinion&quot; thing again... Also, I don't care HOW inexperienced Avi was, she would notice the amount of Power needed for a gateway. Only the strongest modern AS can make one, so it must take a lot. And also oddly enough, a couple of months later in PoD, Avi refuses to leave the Gateway for the Seanchan to see. She has to stress her butt off to hold it for the troops to pass through. Quite a bit of Power is needeed. Avi would have noticed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 23:06:28
subject: <b>A few small suggestions</b>
body:
Let me start off saying that I agree with your theory.  However, I think that things happened a little differently concerning Finnland and Lanfear's reincarnation.<br /><br />First of all, it can be reasoned that the Finns hate anything to do with the shadow.  Likewise, they can probally detect darkfriends (by reading the pattern), and most likely would punish/kill a Darkfriend if they were foolish enough to enter Finnland.  <br /><br />When Lanfear entered Finnland, I think the Finn tortured her, possibly reducing her strength in the power in the process, and then killed her.  <br /><br />Next, the DO ressurected her promptly, she is after all one of his strongest channelers, and set her on a task to kill Asmodean (all this is happening in the same day).  She completed her assasination (probably with some satisfaction), and then got out of there.<br /><br />Throughout the books, the readers have learned a lot about the jealous nature of Lanfear.  In TFoH, she completely lost it when she heard Rand was with Aviendha.  If she got a second chance to kill Aviendha, I think she would jump on the opportunity, unless she was on strict orders to kill the traitor Asmodean and then get the heck out of there immediately.<br /><br />I disagree with the theory that Lanfear killed Asmodean out of pure revenge (as opposed to orders from the DO). If she was knocking people off who had betrayed/angered her, she would likely kill Aviendha as well.  After all, if she is killing people because of revenge, what is keeping her from killing Aviendha.  It doesn't make sense, unless you accept the possibility that the DO sent her to assasinate Asmodean discretely (meaning no side quest to kill a grudge.)  A more probable explination is that the DO ordered Lanfear to assasinate Asmodean and only Asmodean.  To me this is a lot more likely than Lanfear, the Daughter of the Night, swallowing her pride and not killing Aviendha.<br /><br />And lastly, I think that Lanfear's loss of OP strength was caused as punishment from either the Finns or the DO.  Either is possible, but I like the idea of the DO humiliating Lanfear by reducing her strength.  After all, her new name is Cyndane, aka last chance, and I think the DO wants her to know it.<br /><br />Thanks for reading my thoughts.


created: 2004-01-21 08:49:19
subject: <b>brilliant</b>
body:
I hope the masses will see the light with these theories. thank you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 12:42:01
subject: <b>Some points I'd like to answer</b>
body:
&quot;Yes, but Graendal being there does not mean that he would be in danger of death. She could have taken him to the DO or anything like that. No, he knew he was going to die, right then and there. &quot;Intuitively obvious.&quot;<br /><br />That's not the case. Graendal DID NOT know that Asmo was shielded. It seems natural that when she sees a very dangerous traitor she would like to kill him ASAP. After all Rand was nearby and if he had come to investigate Graendal would be in big trouble.<br /><br />&quot;Right. So, during her wanderings for loot she just happened to lock herself in the pantry and just happened to run into Asmo. We all know where Kings, Queens, and Forsaken hide treasure: the pantry, right next to the Salteens.&quot;<br /><br /><br />In all probability it wasn't a pantry at all - Asmo had never been to this building before and was effectively lost.<br /><br /><br />&quot;Okay. This pesky &quot;Opinion&quot; thing again... Also, I don't care HOW inexperienced Avi was, she would notice the amount of Power needed for a gateway. Only the strongest modern AS can make one, so it must take a lot. And also oddly enough, a couple of months later in PoD, Avi refuses to leave the Gateway for the Seanchan to see. She has to stress her butt off to hold it for the troops to pass through. Quite a bit of Power is needeed. Avi would have noticed.&quot;<br /><br /><br />Yeah, right. Like she sensed all the times in Tear, Rhuidean  etc when Lanfear visited Rand. Oh, wait a minute - she did not!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> RJ changes this rules for plot convenience. Another very easy explanation is that Avi did feel it, came to check but Graendal had already dissapeared.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 17:16:46
subject: <b>Walkerkranger</b>
body:
Thanks for the feedback, glad you enjoyed the theory.<br /><br />Concerning Why Lanfear killed only Asmo?  Reread the theory and look closely at her motive.  I think it will make more sense once you reread.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 17:29:16
subject: <b>Aemon_al_Caar</b>
body:
You believe Greandal killed Asmodean.  I would like to ask you some questions.<br /><br />1.  On What basis?  Greandal theory is based on....???<br />2.  Do you have qoutes from RJ that support Greandal? What are the qoutes?<br />3.  What's her motive?<br />4.  Oppurtunity?  Very important, what do you have for me?<br /><br />Let's start with these first.<br /><br />I've shown a strong motive, means and opportunity.  I've also used qoutes from RJ that fit perfectly.  I've shown a pattern in RJ's writing, which also works without a hitch.<br /><br />What do you have?<br /><br />Columbo is waiting on your reply.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 17:54:31
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
&quot;1. On What basis? Greandal theory is based on....???<br />2. Do you have qoutes from RJ that support Greandal? What are the qoutes?<br />3. What's her motive?<br />4. Oppurtunity? Very important, what do you have for me?&quot;<br /><br /><br />1. Mainly because I believe that the killer was someone from the circle of four Forsaken plotting against Rand in TFOH. And Graendal has fewest points against her. Plus she is very smart and is the only Forsaken certain of Asmodean's death in LoC.<br /><br />2. &quot;I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD].<br />[Aaron Bergman, report from NYC book signing, 20 October 199<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />&quot; (WOTFAQ)<br /><br />So in POD there was something about the murder case. What? IMO, that was the fact that immediately after Samael's death  Graendal dared to go to Illian and take some of Samael's belongigs right under Rand's nose. That shows us that she has the guts to visit the enemy territory so to speak. A little jump of logic could lead us that she might have done the same on the day of Rahvin's death.<br /><br />3. Motive? Self-defence. Or she just assumed that Rand has become too damn mighty with a teacher and decided to kill Asmo. But I fancy the first option.<br /><br />4. Opportunity - random encounter. Fast reaction - there you go - Asmo is death. Balefire or not is not the most important thing it could be either.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 04:51:05
subject: <b>Question to Columbo</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />here is your last comment:<br />&quot;You believe Greandal killed Asmodean. I would like to ask you some questions.<br /><br />1. On What basis? Greandal theory is based on....???<br />2. Do you have qoutes from RJ that support Greandal? What are the qoutes?<br />3. What's her motive?<br />4. Oppurtunity? Very important, what do you have for me?&quot;<br /><br />I agree with you about Greandal, but nearly all the points you used for Lanfear could be used for Lews (using Rand body).<br /><br />Motive: Lews said he wanted to kill Asmo a lot of time.<br />Opportunity: Who better than Rand could do what he wants without anyone questionning him.<br />No detection: who could detect Lews/Rand using One Power ? Asmo (so the surprise and the fear).<br />In your first theory, you said that Asmo just thought about Rahvin and Lanfear, but just before he thought about Rand.<br /><br />And who is the last person Asmo think he could meet ?<br />Someone who is dead for a very long time, seems better to me than someone who has just disappeared.<br /><br />So Lews using Rand body.<br /><br />P'tit Dino<br /><br />PS I hope it's clear, English is not my first language.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-01-23 16:32:01
subject: <b>whoa</b>
body:
Hey, Columbo, great as your theory is, it's still just a theory. You don't need to aggressively go after anyone who criticizes it. RJ still has the last word, not us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-23 20:00:00
subject: <b>nmaria27</b>
body:
I'm glad you enjoyed the theory and you don't have to agree, thats okay.  All I'm doing is trying to defend my theory to those that agressively attack it.<br /><br />Nothing personal just business.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 22:48:59
subject: <b>It was graendal</b>
body:
RJ confirms to a question that it was Graendal but nice theory...i cant cite my source but i am 100% certain<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 19:28:07
subject: <b>Murder weapon.......</b>
body:
can not be balefire for one simple reason.<br /><br />&quot;You? No!&quot; The word still stuck in the air as death took him. <br /><br />If he was balefired, he would not have never said the word, and it would not still hang in the air. <br /><br /><br />Just my 2 coppers<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-17 14:23:02
subject: <b>The Homicide Relaoded IS TRUE!</b>
body:
This theory was vary good by my standerds and this &quot;colombo&quot; is on to sumthing that will change the you think about the mystery on the death of Asmodean<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free.<br />Even you, and even me.<br />Soon comes the day all shall die.<br />Surely you, but never I.<br />- Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 13:27:17
subject: <b>One at a time folks....</b>
body:
Putnal08 - You are mistaken, RJ has never revealed Asmodean's killer.  <br /><br />Ashandari - If you have a look at others that have died by balefire eg. Belal you'll realize that your conclusion is wrong.<br /><br />Phatty -  Thanks for the support!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-20 03:10:54
subject: <b>IMHO</b>
body:
The DO cannot make anyone stronger or weaker in the OP, thus proving it was some other action that caused Lanfear's weakness once reincarnated as Cyndane. (Or else the Shadow would've conquered the Light a long time ago. lol)<br /><br />I agree that the Finn killed Lanfear rather quickly, being able to sense she was sided with the Shadow. That would give her plenty of time to be placed in her new body and to gate to the palace to wait for the perfect time to kill Asmodean.<br /><br />Was Balefire used? Depending on the strength of the weave, balefire can even destroy the memory of the person/thing it was used on. I'm too tired to look up Rand's reaction to Asmo's disappearance, but it is clear that if balefire was used, it was in a small portion, enough to do the job.<br /><br />Why not someone other than Lanfear? It wouldn't have mattered who Asmodean saw, he still would have feared for his life, considering his predicament. But I feel that he did see the person he least expected, considering he was just thinking about not having to &quot;worry about her&quot; anymore. That says Lanfear to me.<br /><br />Was Lanfear burned out? More than likely. Was Moiraine killed? I don't think so. Moiraine passed Lan's bond to another. Therefore, HE COULD NOT TELL SHE DIED. The simple passing of the bond is probably what he felt.<br /><br />So what happened to Moiraine? That's rather simple. Being that she is NOT connected with the Shadow, she is/was being held by the Finn. Perhaps she's free now, just hasn't let it be known yet. Maybe she's been free for a long time but no longer has any memories of her life. I believe the Finn like memories, yes?<br /><br />Truth being, we can debate this FOREVER until RJ finally tells us the answer straight forward, which he said he won't do since SOMEONE DID DEDUCT THE ANSWER FROM THE BOOKS.<br /><br />Questions? Comments? Let me have it!<br /><br />~The Probably-Not-So-Wise One~<br /><br />Linayus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> The Not-So-Wise-One? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Linayus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,&quot; he said softly, &quot;or you will be knelt.&quot; (Was that not the BEST ever? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> )</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-02 10:41:51
subject: <b>Yeah, but...</b>
body:
Now I freely admit that it's possible that I don't remember this well enough to be saying anything considering I read so freakin' slow that I've only read the books once.  That being said...  I think too much is made in this theory about the Webster's definition of the word &quot;intuitive&quot;.  I feel that it's much more likely that Jordan meant that with a reasonable amount of thought and investigation the killer would be easily percieved.<br /><br />I admit that I'm a little bit biased towards thinking that Graendal is the culprit.  Also I will admit that Lanfear certainly had the means and the motive to murder Asmodean.  But... and in my world this is a pretty big but, why would she be hiding in a pantry waiting for him?  How would she know that he would be right there right then?  I think that it's much more plausible that Graendal was hiding while attempting to help Rhavin in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Asmodean simply stumbled onto her hiding spot and was killed.  <br /><br />Just my two cents.


created: 2004-12-23 11:21:30
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
You agree that Lanfear had the means and the motive, then you have to agree that she is the most likely killer.<br /><br />Lanfear knew how to find Asmodean because she placed him at Rand's side, remember.<br /><br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 06:44:15
subject: <b>One More Thing...</b>
body:
Alright, first let me just say that I have always thought it was Lanfear, and probably always will, short of Robert Jordan calling my house and calling me an Idiot.<br /><br />Here's my thoughts on why kill only Asmo:<br /><br />1. Lanfear may have been mad at Rand, but she doesn't really want him dead, just under her control: see Moriane's letter, with scenario they come back, Rand is a lap dog, and calls himself Lews Therin.<br /><br />2. Likewise, she doesn't really hate Avhiedna, just the fact that Rand cheated on her with her.  Sure she would probably kill her if she got the chance, but she probably wouldn't risk a wish at the hands of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn just to do so.<br /><br />3. She is much more angered by betrayal than anything else.  Look at her choices post discovery.  First skinning K who she sees as having betrayed her by failing to keep Rand faithful and telling her about it sooner.  Then she wants to 'fix' Rand because she sees this as a betrayal.  She also wants to kill avhiedna, but her anger is mostly incidental in this case, as see in book 9 she still holds the grudge against Rand but not nearly as much as the trollops he's carousing with.  Finally Asmo was the ultimate betrayal as he was supposed to be teaching, watching and reporting, when in fact he had been withholding information.  She had not killed him (going against the wishes of the DO) for exactly this reason, and he spat in her face.  As a result, and coupled with the fact that were it to get out that she had spared him/ helped rand/ plotted to overthrow the DO, she would have been squashed like a bug, so she risked it all, and let herself be ensnared by the Aelfinn.<br /><br />Also: the idea that she was burnt out is still valid.  Perhaps that is why she agreed to give up her power so readily, not knowing that she could be healed (this is reasonable to assume as Ash'a'men had healed stilling, and Taim would have heard about it (and at the least he IS a high level DF).  The Aelfinn would have agreed, as in my mind they probably would know about this, as they seem to be constant throughout the cycles of the wheel.  So she returns, gets healed, but not to full potential, and viola the Aelfinn trick another.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Muahahah!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> I like these smilies!!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Longwinded, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Perverted, yep, that's me... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 22:08:52
subject: <b>Had me till the ending.</b>
body:
There are 2 people that if alive would have had the best case to kill Asmodean.  Moiraine and Lanfear.  Who would be a bigger shock?  Moiraine would of course.  After all Asmodean wouldn't have recognized Lanfear she in a different body.  So what happened then.  I think its plain.  Asmodean saw someone he thought was dead.  Ever thought how much Lanfear looks like Moiraine.  I personally think as part of the bargain Lanfear was reduced in power and changed bodies with Moiraine.  Thats the price Lanfear paid.  Loss of her great beauty and loss of some of her OP.  Still leaves her strong in the OP.  If she had died, she would have gotten her full strength back on resurrection.  How you ask, because the Finn are not the lord of the grave.  So who does Asmodean see right before he dies.  He sees Moiraine's Face but Lanfear's in the body.  Now Moiraine sits in Finnland waiting to be rescued and shes in Lanfears body.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just my theory!


created: 2005-10-25 12:57:01
subject: <b>Read Kod it backs up this theory.</b>
body:
if Moiraine is still alive, and if mat is supposed to save her then this means that  Lanfear is capable of the killing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free.<br />Even you, and even me.<br />Soon comes the day all shall die.<br />Surely you, but never I.<br />- Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 10:24:39
subject: <b>Not really intended for humorous...</b>
body:
but I'll take it.<br /><br />The humorous parts should be obvious, however, the main point of the theory is serious. The intention is to try and create a matrix that accounts for all of important factors of the murder and come to a conclusion based on who scores highest when rated by these factors.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 10:29:09
subject: <b>I'm really bad at putting things into boxes...</b>
body:
It was half-humourous, half serious so I didn't know wheree to put it. I think the bias of the scorer would determine who is the most likely, however.<br /><br />Still, the results are very agreeable. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> maybe you just think like I do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:21:13
subject: <b>I am torn between The Tooth Fairy and Tyrion.</b>
body:
But Tyrion is not too likely. He was busy with Sansa at the time.<br /><br />The Tooth Fairy should have scored higher than Santa. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seriously, I still go with Slayer (or SH). If it were Graendal, Why did only one person come up with her, at the time of RJ`s comment?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:27:28
subject: <b>jofraz...</b>
body:
<br /><b>If it were Graendal, Why did only one person come up with her, at the time of RJ`s comment?</b><br />I always interpreted that comment that only one person had correctly presented <i>all</i> of the events surrounding Asmo's death. It seems to me that it would be in one ear and out the other when people ask him 'Was it Graendal? Slayer? etc?' without presenting a full case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 12:20:32
subject: <b>I took it to mean that...</b>
body:
Jordan has only read one correct full explanation. My impression is that Jordan very seldomly reads theories. I think it likely that many people have a good idea of who did it and a few of them have the correct idea of how it was done. I don't think that it means that the explanation is very complicated or one we might not have seen before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 14:59:58
subject: <b>Wowza...that's a lot of work......</b>
body:
I don't know as your conclusion influenced me any, but I must say that you have certainly sealed your own position in the matter.<br /><br />Cool.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 15:11:00
subject: <b>i laughed when i saw Tyrion!!!</b>
body:
The ending of that was funny! lol<br />Good job of tallying up the scores and such, though i still have no real idea who killed asmo (for the 'serious part')<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If my book is accepted by Tor, Zshamaendal will be in it...and so you will know, it is me...*bow*</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 05:39:18
subject: <b>Goes with...</b>
body:
Tyrion as killer. Sneakly little b*rstard offed his own Father. Killing a wimpy FS turncoat would be no problem for him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> But seriously though, I like your scoring scheme and agree with the outcome of Graendal as Asmo's killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 06:25:32
subject: <b>Nice writing</b>
body:
It sums it up pretty well. I also think it is most likely Graendal did it, but Lanfear is my fav killer unless we find out that she really is an illusion that doesnt exsist.<br />Whatever you think Lanfear did it for me. I also came up with this great idea why she &#168;chooses not to go after Aviendha and Rand. <br />you can read it here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=80158<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 13:19:07
subject: <b>Well done</b>
body:
I especially liked the way you capitalized, Light, time-and-time again.<br /><br />Humorous or not, it was broken down well in terms of all the necessary means.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 14:33:15
subject: <b>Like it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
And of course don't agree.<br /><br />Since you said you are biased towards Graendal &amp; Lanfear as possible killers and Slayer as an impossible killer, I think Slayer's 5th place is not so bad! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />After all, in <i> my </i> matrix-based ranking Slayer is still the number 1. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2004-01-15 18:34:56
subject:
<b>Well, it was interesting for sure, and quite funny <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Of course, this is really just a theory based on your feelings and how strongly you personally would rank evidence, but that said it is a nice breakdown of some obvous questions anyone would ask in this situation. <br /><br />Oh, and by the way, Tyrion couldn't have done it. He was too busy being Demandred.<br /><br /><b><i><u>Tyriandred!!!</u></i></b><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 09:37:13
subject: <b>Thanks for the positive feed back.</b>
body:
I'm certainly willing to concede that bias plays a huge role in scoring for the matrix. For instance if I were a Slayer fan I bet that his score would have been the highest. My main goal is that to correctly identify the killer we need consider the situation in its totality, as opposed to just a few key possibilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 14:59:10
subject: <b>One of the Best</b>
body:
I voted thumbs up for this theory because of its creativity and humor. A scoring matrix is also quite helpful. I think Slayer should have scored higher than Lanfear, myself.<br /><br />I also enjoyed Tyrion Lannister and Santa Claus as suspects, though I don't think RJ would be so low as to make himself be the killer.<br /><br />There are still some seemingly insurmountable problems to overcome. For those who support Lanfear, how then are we to explain her being mindtrapped by Moridin. That could only have happened when she was reincarnated and not in control of herself. If, as Cyndane, she was already galavanting about, how do we explain that she is later captured by Moridin? Even with less strength in the Power than before she was Cyndane, Lanfear would still be a quite formidable adversary for Moridin.<br /><br />The other major obstacle I see, primarily for Graendal, though also for the other suspects, is how they knew where Asmodean was. How did they know that he was with Rand? How did they know he had gone to Caemlyn with Rand? How did they know he would go looking for the pantry through that specific door? Slayer to me seems like the most likely suspect to be able to do that (perhaps he could somehow track Asmodean in T'A'R). But even that is unlikely, I think, so until this question can be answered, I don't think we will know for sure who killed Asmodean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 19:36:29
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
very good job lad. i thought that your funny section sort of toned down the fact that this is the billionthed time that someone has written about my boy asmo and it keeps the rest of us from tracking you down and beating the wanker out of ya. On a more serious note i know who did it.  It was Graendal as you said, why, cause she told me after we made sweet love and she found out she was pregnant with my child which turned out to be a misconception anyways and she did her sorry ass in &quot;shrug&quot;, to bad she was a good pound after all but guess i will have to settle for Lanfear &quot;sigh&quot; what a pity it went down this way.  Stay tuned for massacre at dumais wells where the giant orgy threatened the lives of millions.


created: 2004-01-20 08:33:38
subject: <b>very good</b>
body:
i belive that lanfere did it right before the rand and avi deal she was mad at him because.................um because ...........<br />well im not sure but it has sumtin to do with rand and the gals<br />rand has many women problems up to WH<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duty is heavy as a mountain<br />Death, light as a feather<br />- a saying in shinar<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 17:33:06
subject: <b>KCF...</b>
body:
....thanks for the theory.<br /><br />I think you added it up wrong?<br /><br />Should be;<br /><br />1. Lanfear <br />2. Greandal<br /><br />Otherwise I like the idea.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 09:49:52
subject:
<b>check you math Columbo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Graendal clearly adds up to number 1. However, I have no doubts if you scored the matrix (or a similar one) who would be number - for that matter I bet I know who'd be tops in an Etzel matrix.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-23 17:07:41
subject: <b>Awesome!</b>
body:
I think you have given us the big-picture view we needed.<br /><br />Making the matrix like that is a great way to quantify and compare the data at hand.  I have to admit, I thought you were being a bit subjective at first, but after seeing the multiple citations of theories, I'm a believer.<br /><br />Informative, and highly entertaining.  I myself was beginning to believe Santa Claus was at fault.  Thanks to you, these the darkest of my fears have been laid to rest.  Nice work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-23 20:03:45
subject: <b>kcf.....</b>
body:
...I love this guy Etzel and he always has good stuff but on this one he is way out.  Slayer is not even in the running.<br /><br />As you've shown Lanfear and Greandal are the top suspects!<br /><br />Check the your math again.....hahaha....just giving you the gears as you know who I'm backing.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 11:05:01
subject: <b>Santa Claus</b>
body:
I think we need to spend more time on this Santa guy.  Maybe not for the Asmodean murder but if the guy is more likely than Padan Fain, maybe he represents some additional side.  I mean Padan Fain is a pretty horrible guy, and yet Santa has a greater chance!  I'm going to reread all the books with this new light; and should I find conclusive evidence . . . I'm blocking the chimney next December 24!!!<br />


created: 2004-02-09 15:50:15
subject: <b>Greandal did it, just listen to Moghedein</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I've come to agree that it must have been Greandal who committed the crime. I wanted to say thumbs up on the approach but as far as 'intuitive' goes I think there is a wealth of (admittedly) circumstantial evidence given by Moghedein that Greandal is the killer. If anyone wants to know what I'm referring to review the two sections where Nynavea has captured Moghedein prior to (and during) the battle with Rahvin. She makes it clear the trap Lanfear, Sammael, Rahvin, and Greandal put together is going to be launched the day Rand attacks Rahvin (they thought he'd go after Sammael) and Greandal was supposed to be in Caemlyn supporting that attack. There was also a plan B in case Rand did go after Rahvin (as he did). Greandal could easily have stuck around and finished off Asmodean since she knew him to be a traitor (Lanfear told her and she would have recognized Asmodean on sight anyway).<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-05 22:44:34
subject: <b>You are correct</b>
body:
i cant cite my source, i dont have one, but RJ confirmed that it was Graendal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Never interupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.&quot; Napoleon Bonaparte  <br /><br />Member of the Brown Ajah, and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />(http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=128826)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 13:45:12
subject: <b>Putnal08</b>
body:
You can't reveal your source because it doesn't exist.<br /><br />RJ has never revealed Asmodean's killer.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 04:38:15
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
Personally I would score LTT as a 65. I have a crazy theory pending (I hope it's not discarded because I've seen alot worse published here) that explains it.


created: 2004-01-14 10:55:41
subject:
<b>Sorry Fyatuk- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Have to disagree.   It has never been said that one could channel without the OP. With wilders, it`s a matter of not knowing anything about the OP or channeling.<br /><br />If you haven`t made contact with the OP, how can you channel?<br /><br />Maybe, I just don`t understand your Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:10:04
subject: <b>Cleansing of Saidin</b>
body:
Obviously this is more speculation on my parts, but I get the feeling Rand channeled a lot less of Saidin then most people assume when Saidin was cleansed.  It seemed to be he was directing it without taking it in to him.<br /><br />Also when linked you can control the opposite source (saidin users can use saidar linked and saidar users can use saidin linked) but obviously they cannot grasp that particular source.  They are directing it from what someone else is holding.<br /><br />Now of course there are other explanations, but I think the lack of notice of the feeling of saidin and saidar shown by Rand and Nynaeve is telling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:32:48
subject: <b>That would also explain...</b>
body:
...Verin Delving that Mashadar-damaged Ogier in the Stedding Tsofu. She did it without the Source - a small weave like Delving would probably be safe to do.


created: 2004-01-14 11:35:40
subject: <b>The Cleansing of Sai`din</b>
body:
He didn`t channel ALL of sai`din, certainly, but for long enough to get the siphon effect going. However, he had to hold on to the Source all those hours, and in that case, the Choedan Kal was causing an enormous amount going through him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 13:46:45
subject: <b>I dont think I understand..</b>
body:
Are you saying that they channeled without touching the source? So they used an alternate power, ie their own energy? I dont see Rand having enough energy in him to create a lightning bolt. Does this also mean that non-channelers could do the same thing? But, as I said I dont think I understood..


created: 2004-01-14 14:27:40
subject: <b>tydogg</b>
body:
<i>Are you saying that they channeled without touching the source?</i><br /><br />They channeled without embracing the source.<br /><br /><i>So they used an alternate power, ie their own energy?</i><br /><br />Since they did not embrace the source, they used some of their own energy to control the flows outside of them.  Normally one would draw the power into them and directly affect the flows within you.  The fact that they use up some of their own energy is what makes them sick.  Rand didn't make the lightening bolt with his own energy, he used his own energy to control saidin to make the lightning bolt.<br /><br />Think of it this way.  There is no physical way to control the flow of Power, which means its based on using a metaphysical force (something akin to telekinesis, but only affects the Power).  Under normal circumstances, with the Power drawn into you before controlling it its tiring.  Its even more taxing if you try to do it without drawing the Power into yourself.<br /><br /><i>Does this also mean that non-channelers could do the same thing?</i><br /><br />Not necessarily.  Its all about using your &quot;Power control&quot; muscle (applying the metaphysical force mentioned above).  Non-channelers probably do not have that particual ability/muscle/force.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 14:54:45
subject: <b>Color me ..... <i>confused</i> ...</b>
body:
Okay..I think you are saying that the sickness comes from using the OP to channel without actually following the proper route for it to follow. So it's like using your digestive system to process(and I know this is gross) the mucus in your sinuses? Or...hold on maybe I've got it...<br /><br /> Channeling without embracing completely is akin to trying to run 220 volts through a 110 volts line?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 15:21:34
subject: <b>An Analogy...</b>
body:
Let see if I can come up with a good analogy.  How about writing.<br /><br />When most people write, they write just in front of them, arm bent, etc.  After a while their arm will get tired bust that's about it.<br /><br />My channeling without embracing idea would be like writing on a wall with your arm extended as far as it can reach.  You get tired a lot quicker, and (at least for me) pain develops not only in the arm, but also the neck, back, and shoulder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 16:31:26
subject: <b>Fyatuk, thanks....</b>
body:
That I get.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I agree with you.  Great analogy.  Analogies help me think and to see that mental visual... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 17:29:49
subject: <b>One nitpick</b>
body:
Well more of a gaping hole than a nitpick.<br />After fighting Aginor/Tarwin's gap/Ishmael, the next chapter beging with Rand talking about remembering being racked with sickness. And theres the whole memory thing. Ill post the actual quote later, but he still gets sick.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 13:04:52
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
It certainly sounds as though they might be using their own energy to accomplish the things they did. Perhaps this is something RJ would be willing to explain, since it wouldn't be giving anything away.<br /><br />All of these touchings, even at the Eye, were brought about by extreme need. No attempt was made at trying to direct flows, just the desire to make something happen. <br /><br />I like original ideas, even if there's no confirmation from the books to prove them beyond doubt. Until we hear from the RJ, I'm willing to accept your explanation. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 15:23:23
subject: <b>Hmm, I don't no....</b>
body:
A question first.<br />The Hypothesis must be:<br />&quot;The sickness that strikes down 3 out of 4 wilders is not caused by the One Power itself, but by channeling with<i>out</i> grasping the source&quot;, or not? <br />You say &quot;with grasping&quot;.<br /><br />You also say in your last sentence that &quot;the root cause of wilders' sickness is channeling <i> with </i> grasping the Source.&quot;<br />That confuses me a bit, because it's the second time that you say &quot;with&quot; but I think &quot;without&quot; would be right if I understand your theory correctly.<br /><br />Anyway, I rather think that Wilders have to grasp the OP as everybody else who will channel, also if they use the OP for the first time. <br /><br />The difference is that most Wilders don't do it in a proper way as experienced channelers, but e.g. too hasty or too much (while you say the Wilders don't grasp the OP at all but form it to weaves nevertheless).<br /><br />You present an original idea, no question. <br />Especially the differences you point out between the heat if you grasp the OP in the right way and the lose of energy in other cases is interesting.<br /><br />But I think there is no need to say that the Wilders don't grasp the OP at all, if you imagine that there is a difference between people who learned &amp; trained to grasp the OP and people who do it intuitively without any instructions.<br /><br />The last group likely makes some mistakes which causes the sickness and finally the death.<br /><br />This view is supported by the Guide which says e.g.: &quot;the act of  <i> drawing </i> and controlling the flow of the One Power from the True Source is known as channeling&quot;. <br /><br />Or: &quot;drawing saidar and channeling it without benefit of guidance or training results in death for four out of five women born with the ability.&quot; <br /><br />And: &quot;some women die within the year, some survive as long as five years, yet without the control that is almost impossible to learn without guidance, all die.&quot; <br /><br />Finally: &quot;those women, often called wilders, who do manage to survive and train themselves in the use of the Power usually develop a mental barrier, probably as a survival mechanism, that makes it difficult for them to reach their full potential.&quot;<br /><br />We also never hear from any channeler that it's possible to form the OP without actually holding it, although it should be well known.   <br /><br />This strongly indicates that you can indeed only use the OP if you grasp/draw/hold it, but most Wilders just make deadly mistakes when they take the Power.<br /><br />Therefore I have to disagree with your theory.


created: 2004-01-15 16:52:39
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
You are correct, both of those should be without, not with.  Didn't run this theory through my roommate/proofreader.<br /><br />You said &quot;<i>This view is supported by the Guide which says e.g.: &quot;the act of drawing and controlling the flow of the One Power from the True Source is known as channeling&quot;. </i>&quot;<br /><br />This isn't a view so much as a definition.  In light of this definition (I just bought the guide and haven't read it through) my theory should say &quot;weaving&quot; instead of &quot;channeling&quot;, just so there's no contradiction in terms.<br /><br />You said: &quot;<i>And: &quot;some women die within the year, some survive as long as five years, yet without the control that is almost impossible to learn without guidance, all die.&quot; <br /><br />Finally: &quot;those women, often called wilders, who do manage to survive and train themselves in the use of the Power usually develop a mental barrier, probably as a survival mechanism, that makes it difficult for them to reach their full potential.&quot;</i>&quot;<br /><br />This really doesn't have much relevance, particularly the &quot;finallly&quot; one (as that is discussing blocks, which I did not bring up in the theory).  Control can easily be defined as conditioning oneself to grasp the source before weaving.<br /><br />You said: &quot;<i>Or: &quot;drawing saidar and channeling it without benefit of guidance or training results in death for four out of five women born with the ability.&quot;</i>&quot;<br /><br />This is perhaps the most damning, but doesn't have to be.  With our knowledge we've never been around a wilder <i>in the process of learning</i> except for Rand.  We have no reason to believe an Aes Sedai has ever seen an early wilder while weaving.  Aes Sedai find their pupils by sensing potential, even the wilders among them.  Its not likely an Aes Sedai could tell the difference between an early wilder (like Nynaeve after she healed Egwene years before the story started) and a sparker around the time of her change (Egwene at the beginning of the story).<br /><br />If a wilder was found that early they would be taken to the WT regardless of what they wanted and trained, since its not likely they would suffer the &quot;desparate &quot;circumstances&quot; that we've seen trigger the channeling in wilders, and they haven't had time to develop a mental block, they would be as easily trained as Egwene (aka no problems other than personality).<br /><br />You said: <i>We also never hear from any channeler that it's possible to form the OP without actually holding it, although it should be well known. </i><br /><br />I don't think it would.  As I said, its not likely any AS has seen an early wilder weave (that would be dumb luck if they had, and its such a rare occassion that they might assume they just missed something).  It would take a lot more effort and energy to weave without grasping, so its not really something that would have been taught.  It could be one of the many Age of Legends bits of knowledge that was lost.<br /><br />You say we've never heard of anyone being able to weave without grasping the source, but we've also never heard of any mistakes that could be made (and still get the desired outcome) that would cause a sickness like this as well.<br /><br />I freely admit its highly speculative, but it does fit all the facts that we've been given (Only wilders suffer from it, the lack of the feeling of grasping the source, the discomfort involved, etc).<br /><br />BTW, glad you made an appearance.  Theory discussions usually get more interesting when you show up.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 17:59:07
subject: <b>To Fyatuk</b>
body:
<b> You are correct, both of those should be without, not with. Didn't run this theory through my roommate/proofreader. </b><br /><br />It was just a bit confusing but I figured that it was only a little mistake.<br /><br /><b> This isn't a view so much as a definition. In light of this definition (I just bought the guide and haven't read it through) my theory should say &quot;weaving&quot; instead of &quot;channeling&quot;, just so there's no contradiction in terms. </b><br /><br />You must look at all these quotes together in a synopsis. It's in a chapter about the basic rules of the OP (ch. &quot;The One Power and the True Source&quot; ). <br />To me it becames quite clear that you have to draw the OP into your body to use it.<br /><br /><b> You said: &quot;And: &quot;some women die within the year, some survive as long as five years, yet without the control that is almost impossible to learn without guidance, all die.&quot; <br /><br />Finally: &quot;those women, often called wilders, who do manage to survive and train themselves in the use of the Power usually develop a mental barrier, probably as a survival mechanism, that makes it difficult for them to reach their full potential.&quot;<br /><br />This really doesn't have much relevance, particularly the &quot;finallly&quot; one (as that is discussing blocks, which I did not bring up in the theory). Control can easily be defined as conditioning oneself to grasp the source before weaving. </b><br /><br />I wanted to show that you have to learn and train channeling in the right way. <br />If you don't do that, you will probably make mistakes which likely lead to sickness and death. <br /><br /><b> You said: &quot;Or: &quot;drawing saidar and channeling it without benefit of guidance or training results in death for four out of five women born with the ability.&quot;&quot;<br /><br />This is perhaps the most damning, but doesn't have to be. With our knowledge we've never been around a wilder in the process of learning except for Rand. We have no reason to believe an Aes Sedai has ever seen an early wilder while weaving. Aes Sedai find their pupils by sensing potential, even the wilders among them. Its not likely an Aes Sedai could tell the difference between an early wilder (like Nynaeve after she healed Egwene years before the story started) and a sparker around the time of her change (Egwene at the beginning of the story). </b><br /><br />Some AS were wilders. <br />Such an AS, especially if she is a Brown AS, would probably question the difference between how she &quot;channeled&quot; in the past and what she does now.<br /><br />Also, in the same way as you do it in your theory, it's very likely that AS investigated the sickness and its causes.<br /><br /><b> You said: We also never hear from any channeler that it's possible to form the OP without actually holding it, although it should be well known. <br /><br />I don't think it would. As I said, its not likely any AS has seen an early wilder weave (that would be dumb luck if they had, and its such a rare occassion that they might assume they just missed something). It would take a lot more effort and energy to weave without grasping, so its not really something that would have been taught. It could be one of the many Age of Legends bits of knowledge that was lost. </b><br /><br />It could be, but as said above I think it's more likely that the AS know exactly why they teach the channeling as they teach it. <br />They know the wrong use of the OP can cause sickness &amp; death.<br /><br /><b> You say we've never heard of anyone being able to weave without grasping the source, but we've also never heard of any mistakes that could be made (and still get the desired outcome) that would cause a sickness like this as well. </b><br /><br />I'm not so sure if the AS never say something about it when they train e.g. the Wonder Girls. <br />Have to check it.<br /><br />Anyway, the AS had surely investigated it, and then we had heard if your view is possible.<br /><br />Finally, IIRC many Asha'man die because of Taim's rigorous &amp; fast channeling training. <br />That shows that some mistakes can even kill someone who is trained to channel if it happens too fast (therefore the AS training takes some time). <br /><br />Why can't a wilder just get a sickness if the mistake is not such grave (and dies if it was a big mistake)?<br /><br /><b> I freely admit its highly speculative, but it does fit all the facts that we've been given (Only wilders suffer from it, the lack of the feeling of grasping the source, the discomfort involved, etc). </b><br /><br />You could be right, but I think it can be explained as well (or better?) with mistakes while grasping/using the OP. <br /><br />The Guide's quotes, that no one ever mentions that it's possible to use the OP without taking it and the AS &amp; Asha'man channeling training are enough counter-evidence for me. <br /><br /><b> BTW, glad you made an appearance. Theory discussions usually get more interesting when you show up. </b><br /><br />I was a bit busy in the last days. My study begins to take some time...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-01-16 06:24:18
subject: <b>Etzel, on the Guide</b>
body:
Read that chapter of the guide, and found some interesting points:<br /><br />&quot;This death often takes the form of a lingering sickness that saps the individual of her life energy.&quot;<br /><br />This shows that indeed weaving in the manner that wilders do takes much of their own energy.<br /><br />&quot;If a woman draws too much saidar, or draws saidar too often, she can be burned out or overloaded, losing her ability to channel, or, at worst, killing herself.  If she weaves powers she cannot adequately control, she may cause her own death and damage those around her.&quot;<br /><br />No mention of making herself sick in the things that could possibly go wrong.<br /><br />On linking:  &quot;...the linked flow is not as strong as each of the separate strengths added together.&quot;<br /><br />This shows a loss of power which would be consistant with having to reach outside yourself.  Although in this instance its reaching out to a nearby person so it wouldn't have nearly as strong an effect as trying to weave without grasping the source at all.<br /><br />Also note the word usage in the chapter.  While in most places it uses the words &quot;channeling&quot; or &quot;drawing&quot;, in the section on the wilder's sickness (and the section on severing) it refers to it as &quot;touching&quot;.  In the novels, the processes is referred to as &quot;grasping&quot;, &quot;drawing&quot;, &quot;siezing&quot;, and &quot;embracing&quot;, but when referring to wilders or severing the term &quot;touching&quot; is typically used.<br /><br />The word touching itself implies that nothing is drawn in to oneself.<br /><br />Also, how would you explain Nynaeve's lack of feeling when she originally healed Egwene compared to the certainty she feels later about things?  Obviously the certainty is her recognition of grasping the source, but she mentions nothing unusual in that first instance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 08:48:17
subject: <b>Ah, well...</b>
body:
Maybe you are right. <br /><br />You changed my attitude from &quot;disagree&quot; to &quot;undecided&quot;. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Although I still find it hard to believe that e.g. no one ever investigated the sickness and found its spectacular causes.<br /><br />And why doesn't RJ tell us the real causes if you are right? <br />Makes probably only sense if he will use it somehow in the next books, but how?


created: 2004-01-16 09:39:36
subject: <b>Tell ya the truth</b>
body:
I don't think RJ knows what causes it.  I think he came up with an effect that he wouldn't have to explain why its that way.<br /><br />After all, how many series have every aspect of them dissected such as this one.<br /><br />Then again, if he does know the cause, I can't think of any reason why he hasn't shared it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 13:12:23
subject: <b>Regarding how much saidin Rand used at Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai sent to investigate said vastly more saidin was used than saidar (I think the analogy was Dragonmount next to a foothill), and the amount of saidar was far beyond anything any woman could believe.  He just might have channeled &quot;all&quot; of saidin.  Although Narishma and were holding the power during this time, the True Source is inifinite and cannot be used up.  It seems a huge paradox.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 19:40:28
subject: <b>huh</b>
body:
what the....is your point pub either way what is the difference and does it make any sense at all or is it usefull to anyone ask yourself that and then write a theory i might just have to balefire ur ass my self!


created: 2004-01-22 01:07:34
subject: <b>Sickness.</b>
body:
In Rand's case, did'nt Moiraine tell him the sickness was an after effect from channeling that got closer and closer to the actual event until they were one event and the sickness disappeared?


created: 2004-01-23 17:25:28
subject: <b>Light in the Night:</b>
body:
If you look at the scenarios stated in this theory, Rand tends to channel in desperation, to stop something that is about to happen - a combative response.  Nynaeve channels because she feels sad for the death of a friend, or certain of a good harvest - a nurturing response.  Aren't these consistent with typical male and female emotional responses?<br /><br />I've always thought of saidin and saidar as reflective of the male and female reactions to emotion.  Men tend to fight to control emotion, and to let it take control of them is subconsciously dangerous.  Women react to emotion by embracing it, and guiding it through expression (for lack of a better way to say it.)<br /><br />In this vein, perhaps the reason why wilders eventually experience channeling sickness is because they are attempting to use the OP in a way that is more &quot;mechanical&quot; or &quot;scientific&quot; instead of in a manner more in keeping with their emotional natures.  Honestly, I think this is the temptation for both characters and readers of WoT - to think of the OP in more scientific, quantitative terms, when in reality it is a far more nebulous and metaphysical concept.  <br /><br />Perhaps it is in falling into this trap of physical empowerment through metaphysical means that untrained channelers stretch themselves past their own bounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-26 21:26:46
subject: <b>Quick read and no time to read comments but...</b>
body:
...what happens to the wilder that survives?  Do they begin to conciously control the one power?  <br /><br />Sorry if this has been asked.<br /><br />Haven't given this much thought but it seems like a job well done.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-04 01:17:22
subject: <b>This makes sense...</b>
body:
Generally, I don't agree with a lot of theories but this one does grasp something.<br />Even though I can't cite references, maybe you guys will be able to know what I'm talking about:<br />First off, there has to be more than one way of touching the True Source (which is the root of the OP and of all the living force). This is shown in a conversation the Forsaken had. ARgh! I will have to go look up the references later. Anyway, one of the female forsaken was talking to one of the male (I'm sorry I CAN'T remember names!! I've had a long week).  They were discussing what would happen if Rand did clean Saidin--how could the Dark Lord trust him or any of the male forsaken.  Obviously, the male forsaken control the TS throught the bond that links them to Shai'tan. Also, in some of the other books/dialogues between the Forsaken, they talk about not using the OP but using the raw TS instead. Anyway, at this point I'm randomly babbling...I'll come back and really type what I think later (after I sleep!)


created: 2004-04-05 21:23:24
subject: <b>To belatedly answer Columbos question</b>
body:
The wilders who survive are the ones who learn to grasp the source.  They become like Nynaeve, with a certainty of what they do with the power without knowing its the power.<br /><br />Those who don't learn to grasp the source before they channel are the ones who die.  The pull of saidin and saidar causes them to keep channeling until they use up too much of their own energy controlling it and die.<br /><br />IMO the block doesn't develop until after they learn to grasp the source.  Its at that point their subconscious realizes the danger of using the power too often and forceably limits the persons ability to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 01:02:37
subject: <b>hmm...theres an inconsistency here</b>
body:
Grasping saidin is usually described as a struggle for survival, it is &quot;fire and ice&quot; trying to burn/freeze you, not a nice warm feeling like at the Eye of the World. whereas the first time, with Bela, it does make reference to freezing and chilling...just wondered what was goin on with that


created: 2004-07-09 14:32:44
subject: <b>Today's your lucky day! ... don't ask about tomorrow</b>
body:
Anybody remember in New Spring (towards the end) when Moiraine and Suian are trying to puzzle out why sisters are going around killing men who are lucky?<br /><br />Towards the beginning of the Epilogue:<br /><br /><i>[Suian's] eagerness turned to horror. &quot;Light! They're killing any man or boy who </i>might<i> be able to channel! Oh, burn me, thousands could die, Moiraine. Tens of thousands.&quot;<br /><br />It did make a terrible sense. Men who could channel seldom knew what they were doing, at least in the beginning. At first, they often just seemed to be lucky. Events favored them, and frequently... they rose to prominence with unexpected suddenness.</i><br /><br />They seldom knew what they were doing in the beginning. I think that perhaps it's an entirely instinctive action. If wilders <i>are</i> actually channeling, it's probably on a primal, subconcious level. There might not even be weaves involved. Which would explain how they can manipulate things without being aware of it.<br /><br />And the luck thing seems to go for both genders. Nynaeve could have been called a lucky healer in the case of Egwene, just as Rand could have been called... well, just damn lucky... in the case of Domon's ship rocking and the boom knocking out the trolloc. Did Nynaeve instinctively create the intricate weave for healing and lay it on Egwene? Did Rand instictively use flows of Water or Air--both of which are considered feminine elements, in any case--to rock the ship? Unlikely. But there was 'luck' involved. And it's my guess that it was just the emotional need that led them in desperation to use the One Power. Whether or not they knew they were using it, or how to use it, or even if they used it in a way we could recognize.<br /><br />As far as the original point of the thread goes...<br /><br />I always thought the sickness came from just <i>handling</i> the One Power. Sort of like the first time you take a drag on a ciggy--your body has never experienced anything like it, so you cough. Can't help it. Or like the first time you feed good Mexican food to a Canadian. Their bodies aren't used to the spicy food, and it's pretty safe to say that they'll spend an uncomftorable night or two before their digestive system can adjust. <br /><br />Or maybe it's like a one-time hangover. Too much of a good thing, ya know?<br /><br />Although I suppose it could be that since they aren't aware of what they're doing, the sickness might come from handling it the wrong way. Any idiot can use a knife, but if you don't know what you're doing chances are good you'll cut yourself. <br /><br />However. If the sickness comes from mishandling the power, why would <i>every</i> wilder get sick? By just dumb luck, there ought to be a few who would handle it correctly on accident.<br /><br />Eh, just some thoughts. Probably should have put all that in a real Theory, but I can't be bothered right now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>~<font color="#3300CC">Ran</font><font color="#0066FF">do</font><font color="#99CCFF">m</font> <font color="#0066FF">Dr</font><font color="#0000CC">eam</font>~<br /><font color="#000066">Question everything.</font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 09:30:28
subject: <b>Yes you are IMO</b>
body:
But that may be because I have my own thoughts about Taim.  It is a little suspiscious since Taim was freed shortly after Be'lal and Ishmael were killed, but that would make Be'lal the fastest turnaround we've seen.  Killed in tDR, active again by the end of tFoH (Bashere tracked him to Caemlyn).  Considering it took from EotW to LoC for the gars, and slightly less for Ishmael...<br /><br />Not likely, and it was the first thing that popped in people's heads after that quote.<br /><br />Cute idea, but I think if Be'lal is reborn we haven't seen him yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 10:29:46
subject: <b>No...Be'lal is gone for good</b>
body:
I was wondering how long it would take for this theory to make to the theory post.<br /><br />In terms of literary devices, we just haven't seen enough of and don't know enough about Be'lal for it to make sense that he is still around.<br /><br />Also, it is mentioned (in tDR I think) that Be'lal is a great swordsman - better than LTT. If you recall, Taim has a disdain for swords and doesn't seem to really be good with it. This is a major point against Taim being Be'lal. Face it, Taim is Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 10:42:52
subject: <b>In addition to Fyatuk`s and kcf`s rebuttals-</b>
body:
the AOL channelers did not know bonding, and Taim taught the Asha`man how to do this, with the &quot;little extra&quot;.<br /><br />IMO, Shaidar Haran has been instilled with Asmodean`s soul, but I suppose it could be Be`lal`s.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 10:45:59
subject: <b>jofraz...</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that it wasn't Taim who figured out the bonding. I don't remember who it was, but maybe Grady. Anyone remember. I think SH is something new, but I would entertain the possibility that his soul (assuming he has one, which is a big assumption) is prexisting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:27:15
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran has gained some awesome powers</b>
body:
I have assumed that was why Asmodean was killed-to gain access to his soul to use for SH.<br /><br />But I may be wrong!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:35:24
subject: <b>Regarding Sword Comment</b>
body:
I am open to proof that he has not been revived but I don't think that skill with the blade is sufficient.  If I remember correctly Dashiva is thought to be uncomfortable in his own body and clumsy which could be a result of soul not completely adapting to a body which could effect sword skill.  Also, I do not believe that all physical abilities are transferred with the soul.  A hypothetical example is that if Thom's soul was transferred to another body their is no assurance that he would be able to do all of his gymnastic tricks because the new body may not be suited to them.  Perhaps Taim was a clumsy guy and when Be'lal got into the body he was so frustrated that he no longer possesses his sword skill that he begins to shun the weapon as a result.


created: 2004-01-14 11:42:48
subject: <b>Dark One Quote</b>
body:
I found a quote after I submitted my theory that is intersting.  When Demandred is meeting the Dark One in the prologue of LoC this was said, &quot;THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY.  THOSE WHO BETRAY ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH.  ASMODEAN TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS.  RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.&quot;  He specifically does not mention Be'lal.  All the other Forsaken who were not mentioned but who had died at this point ( Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, Lanfear ) were revived so with the statement by Robert Jordan above it seems logical to think that Be'lal could have been revived too.<br /><br />Jesse<br />


created: 2004-01-14 13:32:10
subject: <b>no, sorry</b>
body:
everyone else raised good points. it would be an interesting possibility, but i think it's just too off-the-wall.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 17:14:19
subject: <b>Undecided on this one...</b>
body:
I personally have a problem with how everyone one seems to take what the DO says at face value... He IS the father of lies. I'm glad that Jordan has made those comments about bringing back those who had been balefired.<br /><br />I reckon Be'lal has probably come back. Maybe the only piece of evidence against Be'lal being Taim is the sword thing. But maybe he's distainful because he consideres himself so much better then the teacher. In tDB he is distainful of Rands swordsmanship.<br /><br />I've always been a bit unsure of Taim and was sure until the end of WH that he was Demandred. When Rand and Taim met Davram didn't see to believe Taim was really Taim. As I said I'm undecided on this one.<br /><br />Maybe Shadar Haran is Be'lal. He seems to have a more human personality than the average Fade. Ahhh I don't know.<br /><br />Nice theory though. It gives us something fresh to talk about beside &quot;who killed Asmodean?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 22:41:50
subject: <b>Regarding Ashaman Bonding</b>
body:
It was Canler who worked it out. And Taim was annoyed when he found out that the Ashaman were Bonding their wives and even more annoyed when they started  Bonding Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 01:50:35
subject: <b>intresting</b>
body:
while you do bring up some likely points, that were discussed, I still thinky no. Have no real proof for this, other then Moriane was a VERY strong channeler for her time (before they discovered the two rivers girls). But, I dunno, gut says, no. I give thumbs down. <br /><br />Though that said, and with RJ's latest comments, it would sure put a kick in the ol hornets nest!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 12:40:00
subject: <b>I'm torn on this issue</b>
body:
Jordan made it clear early on that BF put the souls beyond reach of the DO. Now it sounds as if he's waffling on the issue, or trying to make us believe that Be'lal has been or could be brought back in some form.<br /><br />For myself, I think Taim is just Taim, Rand's modern-day version of Demandred (Mr. Second-place).<br /><br />If Be'lal has been incarnated, he has been well hidden, IMO.<br /><br />*Curses RJ for sayng this*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 15:30:07
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
What was Be'lal doing the whole time? <br />Why doesn't Moridin know of him? <br />Why doesn't Be'lal help at the Cleansing?<br />That are only a few questions which can't be explained.<br /><br />Besides, Slayer's patron was Osan'gar in my view.<br /><br />Sorry, I don't buy it.<br /><br />


created: 2004-01-15 17:53:50
subject: <b>Disagree Response</b>
body:
Hello,<br /><br />I thought I would go in order with these:<br /><br />1. What was Be'lal doing the whole time?  Masquerading as Taim so that he might corrupt as many Asha'man as possible and create a new order of Dreadlords.  <br /><br />2. Why doesn't Moridin know of him?  Who says that Moridin doesn't know of him?  When did we learn of his knowledge of Cyndane?  Just because it has not been mentioned doesn't mean he does not know.  Also, the best way to keep a secret is to tell no one.  If Moridin does not reveal that Taim is Be'lal to anyone then there is no chance that someone  (Mogheiden, I am looking in your direction) could get captured and reveal Taims identity.<br /><br />3. Why doesn't Be'lal help at the Cleansing?  Because maintaining cover as Taim is more important then being discovered in an attack.  If Flinn had seen Taim/Be'lal fighting then the charade would be over and Rand would clean house at the Black Tower and the dreadlord recruiting would be over.<br /><br />Those were good point but I think those were solid answers that show they don't prove he has not been revived.<br /><br />Jesse


created: 2004-01-15 18:29:28
subject: <b>To jharaldson</b>
body:
<b> 1. What was Be'lal doing the whole time? Masquerading as Taim so that he might corrupt as many Asha'man as possible and create a new order of Dreadlords. </b><br /><br />Yeah, but is it really likely that Be'lal is Taim? I think not. <br /><br />Besides that Taim doesn't like sword fighting contrary to Be'lal, Taim gives orders to his Asha'man to kill Rand (what also Demandred knows).<br /><br />On the other hand, you say that Be'lal was Slayer's disguised patron and wanted that no one knows that he wants to kill Rand.  <br /><br />It also doesn't fit with Taim's angry reaction when Rand chooses Dashiva as his guard. <br />There is no reason that the DO wouldn't tell Be'lal that Dashiva is actually Osan'gar (and I think vice versa).<br /><br /><b> 2. Why doesn't Moridin know of him? Who says that Moridin doesn't know of him? When did we learn of his knowledge of Cyndane? Just because it has not been mentioned doesn't mean he does not know. Also, the best way to keep a secret is to tell no one. If Moridin does not reveal that Taim is Be'lal to anyone then there is no chance that someone (Mogheiden, I am looking in your direction) could get captured and reveal Taims identity. </b><br /><br />Because Mordin thinks in his PoV in PoD, prologue, that there are only nine sha'rah players. <br /><br />He means the living Forsaken at this time. If we include Be'lal we have 10.<br /><br /><b> 3. Why doesn't Be'lal help at the Cleansing? Because maintaining cover as Taim is more important then being discovered in an attack. If Flinn had seen Taim/Be'lal fighting then the charade would be over and Rand would clean house at the Black Tower and the dreadlord recruiting would be over. </b><br /><br />Taim could no know that Finn would be present.<br />And if he knew it, he could use a mask.<br /><br />Besides, also Halima shows that she is a woman who can use saidin. <br />After all, the Forsaken's first task is to prevent a big blow for the DO. <br /><br />


created: 2004-01-16 09:03:11
subject: <b>nah, don't think so</b>
body:
As was previously stated, the DO told Demandred he cannot revive people who've been balefired. (Of course, he may be lieing, but I still think he can't (after all, he's not the Creator!))<br />And from what I remeber of the killing of Be'Lal (it's been a while since I read it) Moiraine balefired Be'Lal.


created: 2004-01-16 13:26:50
subject: <b>nope, Be'lal is not coming back</b>
body:
While it's possible that Moiraine's balefire wasn't strong enough to remove Be'lal far back in time to prevent the DO securing his soul, the fact that he was not at the Forsaken meeting in WH proves that he is not alive.  If he were there's no reason for him not to be there since none of the others were exempt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 14:36:00
subject: <b>Astounding Idea, But...</b>
body:
I love this idea, but I am not sure if I believe it. According to RJ now, someone who was balefired might be able to be brought back, but I think that is probably unlikely. Also, as people have said, we have the problem of the lack of skill with a sword (I think the new body would have nothing to do with it; it is what the mind knows that is important; Look at Mat as an example; he got new memories and was suddenly a great fighter without any training of his body) and the problem of time (it would have been an unprecedentedly quick return to a body if Bel'al was put into Taim's body). Lastly, the comment about the nine sha'rah players was insightful as well.<br /><br />Now I have some comments regarding previous posts. First, about the possibility of Asmodean being killed to put his soul into the body of SH. I think this idea is ludicrous. The DO says that those who betray him die the final death. We have absolutely no reason to disbelieve the DO here. Yes, the DO is the Father of Lies, but that doesn't mean he lies about everything; only that he lies when it suits his purpose. Why would he even want the soul of Asmodean, who was &quot;twisted by weakness.&quot; It makes sense that the DO truly believes this about Asmodean.<br /><br />I also don't believe that Bel'al was put into SH. I think it is questionable whether a Myrdraal would even have a soul to replace. I seem to remember RJ commenting that trollocs (and maybe other Shadowspawn, too) have souls so twisted and shriveled as to be almost non-existent. Perhaps a human soul would explain a lot about SH, but it might not be possible even for the DO to do that. Can a human soul even be put in a non-human body? Furthermore, I would think that some of the Myrdraal's special abilities (i.e. slipping through shadows) are a result of the state of its soul, which would no longer be possibly with a human soul (I'm not exactly sure how I think a Myrdraal's soul is responsible).<br /><br />Finally, in response to the poster who commented that the DO was &quot;not the Creator,&quot; I have to say that the DO has the same abilities as the Creator. The DO is the antithesis of the Creator, which means that he is completely equal but opposite of the Creator. What I mean by this is that I don't think the Creator could bring back a balefired soul any easier than the DO could (if at all).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 11:50:36
subject: <b>Not Taim, but SH?</b>
body:
I definately don't think that Taim could be Be'lal at all for the reasons mentioned above.<br /><br />SH on the other hand intrigues me.  Maybe, since he was balefired, the DO did not have time to find a proper body for Be'lal to be put into.  He needed one right away and so used what he had on hand and put his soul in a Myrddraal, not knowing what would come out, but having no other choice.  What did come out was SH, not Be'lal, not a Myrddraal.<br /><br />Just a thought, not even sure if I believe it myself, what do you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 13:49:12
subject: <b>To Adan....</b>
body:
How could the DO be equal to the Creator?  ...the Creator captured and bound the DO...IF they were equals that would not have been possible, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 19:55:02
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
well, ineteresting very interesting indeed and makes you think good job.  of course i dont see how it would matter much if you were balefired by someone who could barely balefire cause i think any balefire is out of reach of the DO. It just doesnt make sense for a weaker weave to give the DO the chance to revive that person i just dont think that it works that way but once we get past that spot then i am up for idaes!!!


created: 2004-01-19 07:10:59
subject: <b>Not Necessarily</b>
body:
Let's assume for the moment that one of the forsaken has indeed been recreated, as it where, after having been balefired.  Moiraine didn't necessarily use a small amount of Balefire on Bel'al just because she was less powerful than Rand.  I can't remember the exact forsaken, but isn't there in one of the Forsaken death scenes where Rand actually changes his weave in mid-weave because just as he was about to let the Forsaken have it he remembered the advice given to him about Balefire's destructive power?  For memory, I think it was Sammael, but since RJ has said that Sammael is toast, it would have to be someone else.  It may be that we see a new Forsaken make an appearance in book eleven.  Although, RJ may have told us Sammael was toast because of all the theories about him not being dead.  Maybe Sammael WAS toast, but has been reborn as bread again.  Just a crusty thought for your day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-19 14:33:05
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I do not think this theory is likely to be true, since it doesn't mather how large amount of balefire you use, a thin bale rip pepople away as easily as a large, the difference is how long before they be ripped away. And, Moriane used as much power as she could to her balefire, and that would be more than Rand used against the shadow dogs in ruhedain, and they were ripped some seconds...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 12:54:07
subject: <b>It is possable</b>
body:
Well it certainly is theoretically possable, but I will have to see more proof to say he is Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>'One day all these cookie-cutter New-Wave ripoff bands are going to combine Voltron-style into a giant Mecha Ian Curtis and destroy downtown London. NME will give their rampage a 9 out of 10'</i> - QC on the Killers</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-22 13:21:56
subject: <b>Arguments That Bel'lal Cannot Have Been Revived</b>
body:
Hello,<br /><br />I have noticed a couple of posts rebutting my theory that fall into one of the following statements:<br /><br />1. Be'lal was destroyed with Balefire and nothing can bring those kind of souls back.<br /><br />2. Moiraine was powerful for her time so the amount of balefire she used would not be small.<br /><br />I know this theory is kind of loony and several people have raised good points as to why Be'lal may not be Taim but I don't think there is any doubt that it is possible for Be'lal to be revived due to the following quotes.<br /><br />1. To rebut the first point about all souls who died of balefire are beyond the reach of the Dark One you just have to go back to the quote in the theory where Robert Jordan definitively states, &quot;Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone ... unless the amount of balefire used is very small.&quot;.  This quote explicitly states that souls can be recovered in certain cases of balefire so depending on your definition of &quot;small&quot;, Be'lal could have been revived.<br /><br />2.  To rebut the second point I submit a quote from TFOH where Moiraine is talking about balefire, &quot;When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern...For as far back as you destroy [something], whatever it did during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain, for those who saw or experienced it.&quot; [TFOH: 6, Gateways, 119] She states here that she cannot make balefire powerful enough to remove a thread from the pattern for more then a few seconds which I would think qualifies for the &quot;small&quot; amount that Robert Jordan stated above.<br /><br />Thanks for the comments!<br /><br />Jesse


created: 2004-02-19 13:03:38
subject: <b>Another Rebuttal of the Sword Issue</b>
body:
Hello,<br /><br />I have been doing a reread lately and I found some more information on why if Be'lal is Taim that he would not have blademaster sword skill.  In CoS or PoD someone was contemplating on why the reserved Delana was keeping the flamboyant Halima around as a secretary.  They assumed it must be because she was a friend because they described her skill as a secretary as lacking specifically mentioning that her writing looked like some had just learned their letters.  Since I assume no one would say that Balthemmal didn't know how to write in the Age of Legands the only assumption we can make is that you have to reteach yourself things when you are given a new body.  Writing is easier then being a blademaster so I would assume that Be'lal being put in Taim's body would not be able to have his previous blade skill and as a result he might shun the weapon.


created: 2004-12-07 15:06:28
subject: <b>i disagree but...</b>
body:
bel'al may be disdainful towards the sword because inspite of all the hours of training he put in to becoming a bladesmaster he was still done in by an 'untrained girl weak in the power'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-11 02:47:34
subject: <b>Taim and the Sword</b>
body:
It could also be, hypothetically - if Taim is Bel'al. That he still has his skill with a sword, but wants to keep it secret as a last resort to use against his students in case they were to betray him. If they aren't taught the sword, then he has a big advantage. He can counter their channeling with his own, while at the same time cutting them down with a sword. That would explain his anger at being rebuked by Rand on this point.


created: 2004-01-14 10:30:48
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
She is a quick learner, as is Nynaeve. She did witness Nynaeve`s BF weave.<br /><br />However, I doubt she was in the Heart of the Stone at the time Moiraine used BF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 10:36:20
subject: <b>Jofraz</b>
body:
You know, it doesn't particularly matter if she was in the Heart when Moiraine balefired or not.  She would still be able to read the residue for a while (a day or 2 maybe?), and assuredly she went through the Heart at some point.<br /><br />Of course the entire theory revolves on her having some training before she officially became an apprentice, but her behaviour does make it seem she did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 11:45:04
subject: <b>I agree with your Theory, except-</b>
body:
don`t believe she had prior training before Tear. Can you imagine the WO`s letting her go once she started training?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 12:17:00
subject: <b>Not suggesting she could've used balefire back then...</b>
body:
Only that she was Talented enough that perhaps she didn't need training before seeing the weaves. Skilled sul'dam can see weaves, after all. Of course, during the training of Elayne/Egwene, there's a progression of skill documented:<br /><br />1. Channeling. They make blue balls of light<br />2. Seeing someone embrace the source. If I recall, when Egwene and Elayne first meet in the tower and show off their channeling skills, they &quot;see&quot; the glow around each other for the first time and hug and pledge friendship and all that.<br />3. Seeing weaves<br /><br />I claim that Aviendha could already do #2 at the time she saw Nynaeve's balefire, and I claim she is exceptionally Talented at doing #3, insofar as it may be possible she developed it way earlier in her breaking-out than anyone else in the series.


created: 2004-01-14 12:27:56
subject: <b>I too agree...</b>
body:
Good theory...<br /><br /> I have often wondered why we saw Ny channel balefire then.... I suspect we may see both of them channel it soon.<br /><br /> I had forgotten about the Talent Avi has...good thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 16:59:38
subject: <b>Damn good theory!</b>
body:
I love the theory post! It's fantastic that you guys can still unearth little pieces of info like this.<br /><br />It is interesting that the Aiel knew the term balefire. Maybe the wise ones know how to use it but choose not to...<br /><br />Whatever the case, I agree that Aviendah would have seen the weaves. We know she has the spark born in her, I think it would have began to manifest by then. I think she is a little older then Egwene who had been channeling for about a year at the time Nynaeve used it on the fade.<br /><br />One more point I'd like to make that is a little off topic. I think Narishma has a similar skill for reading weaves. He managed to get through the trap that Sammael left around the sword which is not a sword. No mean feat that...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 17:55:45
subject: <b>to taint</b>
body:
No, it was Rand who set those traps, and he told Narishma how to get through them just before sending him on that mission. <br /><br />tPoD ch 27, pg 582 PB<br />&quot;Light, he <i>had</i> told Narishma everything about the traps he had woven in the Stone when he sent the man to fetch <i>Callandor</i>&quot;<br /><br />Just wanted to clear this up. <br /><br />Good theory jahqueel, and it's a &quot;possible: yes. likely: not so sure&quot; from me<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 19:25:47
subject: <b>Sorry floffe</b>
body:
Rand set traps but Sammy added a bunch of new traps... can't remember when he tells Grendal about it but he does.<br /><br />That chapter when Narishma returns with the sword and accuses Rand of trying to kill him...Thats what it's all about. Shows the Taveren thing in action. Rand certainly would have been killed but trusted the one person who could have got the sword and survived.<br /><br />Peace<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 23:20:29
subject: <b>Mabey</b>
body:
Good theory but mabey balefire was just a memory of something destructive. Like oh i dont know.... man today is not my day. But you get what i mean dont you? Like... you do a puzzle. Like a 500 piece puzzle. And someone shatters it and you see one piece and you remember it was part of the ground but not where. Like they remember it was bad but not why or how. Am i makign sense or babbling?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 01:47:17
subject: <b>hrm</b>
body:
While I now doubt think that Nynaeve is going to do something with Balefire, someday, I don't know about this one. Comments about Avi not yet getting taught do strum strings, but so do her comments about &quot;we would never hurt Aes Sedai&quot;. A good theory at any rate, I gave it thumbs up. <br /><br />How it relates to Asmo&#8217;s death, well more fuel for the fire (it was never really suggested, but hey).<br /><br />At this point, I am a dumb robot, just wandering though the muck. I won't know jack till I RAFO, if I ever do.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 07:29:48
subject: <b>Asmodean</b>
body:
Aviendha in the wine closet with balefire... my next theory? Naw. I left that door open on purpose, though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-01-15 12:23:55
subject: <b>I have my doubts</b>
body:
Egwene was born with the spark, Elayne as well. And Elayne even grew up with an Aes Sedai present, yet she was no further along in learning about the Power than Egwene.<br /><br />To take this farther, it wasn't until the girls had quite a few lessons before they ever saw the glow around each other. In fact, Egwene said she had felt a kinship to Aviendha, although she couldn't explain it. When Moiraine reads the letter from the Wise Ones in the Stone, saying that Aviendha must return to them for training, is when Egwene first realizes that Aviendha can channel.<br /><br />I think it would be stretching it to say that Aviendha could see weaves at this early stage. Much of the girls first lessons were devoted to learning how to embrace saidar, before ever learning one flow from another (Earth, Air, etc). <br /><br />My point being, that you have to embrace saidar, to be able to see the flows or weaves. If Aviendha had already had her first touching, the Wise Ones wouldn't have allowed her to go to Tear, because of the sickness associated with it.<br /><br />I believe that the Aiel remember the name for BF because they are better at preserving their lore. Whether or not any of them can actually make it is yet to be seen.<br /><br />Still, a well written theory, and I gave it a thumbs up for that!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 13:56:53
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
&quot;My point being, that you have to embrace saidar, to be able to see the flows or weaves. If Aviendha had already had her first touching, the Wise Ones wouldn't have allowed her to go to Tear, because of the sickness associated with it&quot;<br /><br />no, you dont. what about the  sul'dam that can see the weaves then?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Erquu Blue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 15:23:07
subject: <b>LOL! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I like that suggestion about aviendha killing Asmodean. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Aiel are fast, but could she be that fast? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-01-15 17:00:44
subject: <b>Makes sense to me</b>
body:
Good theory. <br /><br />I had really forgotten that Nynaeve used balefire at this point or that Aviendha knows the term &quot;balefire&quot;. <br />Can someone tell me why Nynaeve knows how to use balefire?<br /><br />In any case, I agree with you.


created: 2004-01-15 17:05:50
subject: <b>Re: Erquu</b>
body:
You're right. I got sidetracked from what I was thinking, as I was writing. It happens.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 06:28:57
subject: <b>LiTN</b>
body:
<i>If Aviendha had already had her first touching, the Wise Ones wouldn't have allowed her to go to Tear, because of the sickness associated with it.</i><br /><br />Didn't Aviendha channel a big honking fireball about a week into her training.  Either she is an unbelievable prodigy, or there's something fishy here.<br /><br />This is of course during tSR.  Aviendha, Moiraine, Mat, and Rand leave for Rhuidean at the same time.  Mat and Rand are there for 7 days (not sure about Aviendha or Moiraine), and they headed out as soon as Rand was back.  A little bit into the journey is the fireball.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 09:27:38
subject: <b>Good Theory. A few notes:</b>
body:
The Aiel are not only 'better at preserving their lore', as Light in the Night points out, they are perferct in preserving their lore, thanks to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean. I think that it is quite plausible that in some of the Wise Ones' (and maybe Chiefs') ancestries, there is the mention and/or use of balefire. This would mean that at least some present-day Aiel know of balefire, which leads to a fair assumption that many, if not all, Aiel have 'heard of it' in some shape or form. Most Aiel probably do not know the truth behind it, and probably just think that it's some destructive power, but the WOs at least should know the truth, and thus keep the stories from getting too far off track as they are passed down generations.<br /><br />I think Nynaeve didn't learn balefire, hell, she barely ever learns stuff. Like Rand, she seems prone to discovering stuff on her own. Examples of this are her advanced Delving techniques using 5 powers, her Healing of stilling, and the actual process of Stilling (she invents it on-the-fly during a battle against Moghedian, by realising she needs to 'sharpen' the edge on her Shield). So she probably just used it out of instinct, not knowing precisely what it was.<br /><br />So yeah, good theory! I wonder if Elayne and Egwene know what it is, I don't think they do. This makes Aviendha the only one of the three that is really equipped with a potent weapon against the Forsaken. Maybe this will come into play in Book 11?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 10:24:32
subject: <b>Re: Fyatuk</b>
body:
Yeah. The only point of reference says they were into the twelfth day, and somewhere before that (it's really vague), is when she does the fireball, described as being as big as a horse.<br /><br />OTOH, Egwene was in the Tower for thirteen weeks before Liandrin took her and the others to Falme, and all we saw her doing before that was juggling colored balls with Elayne. (That's not to say she couldn't do more than that).<br /><br />However, once they put the a'dam on her, the sul'dame tells her to blow up a tree about a half-mile away. Egwene's pov says she's never done anything beyond arm's reach, and is unable to even try.<br /><br />The Tower does bring their novices along slowly, but it took some time for the girls to just learn to embrace saidar, much less do anything with the Power. <br /><br />It should also be remembered that Aviendha was spending most of her time with Rand, too. Seems like a pretty big discrepancy on the learning/ability curve to me.<br /><br />So, do you think she had her first touching earlier? Would the Wise Ones let her go over the Dragonwall knowing she had? Or start teaching her before she went to Rhuidean?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 14:41:31
subject: <b>Excellent Theory...But</b>
body:
I think this theory was excellently written and supported. However, I wonder about the significance of this discovery. Why is this a valuable discovery? Like many discoveries this might not be recognized as valuable until much later, but what is the speculation now that we HAVE realized it? When or how or why will this come into play again? I wouldn't expect RJ to leave this out after having so carefully developed this unique ability in Aviendha.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-16 15:40:31
subject: <b>Adan</b>
body:
The ability of seeing weave residues has already been demonstrated, dramatically. Elayne unraveled her Gateway, partially, because of what Avienda had said. The big explosion caused the Seanchan to believe that the AS have a powerful weapon.<br /><br />RJ doesn`t need to use that information any more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 07:02:26
subject: <b>I agree Adan</b>
body:
I think you're right Adan, and we'll be hearing about Aviendha's Talent again. It is pretty cool, and very useful, to be sure. In fact, I'm a little surprised it hasn't been made a lot more use of.<br /><br />To be able to see weaves up to 2 days after is a big advantage, especially when there are Forsaken sneaking here and there doing AoL weaves all over the place. Then again, they probably invert everything which might make it invisible to Aviendha. I'm fairly sure that they hadn't discovered Unravelling or Unweaving, or woteva, in the Age of Legends, so the Forsaken wouldn't be taking that procaution.<br /><br />Steel Heron<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 07:39:16
subject: <b>re: LiTN</b>
body:
<i>So, do you think she had her first touching earlier? Would the Wise Ones let her go over the Dragonwall knowing she had? Or start teaching her before she went to Rhuidean?</i><br /><br />I think she probably had her first touching at some point before going to Rhuidean.  Egwene &amp; Co are not very experienced and the story seems to imply that it takes a while before you can sense the ability before its manifested.<br /><br />Also the WO calling Aviendha seemed rather sudden.  They knew she was a channeler a while ago, but didn't pull her in.  Then  suddenly call her in and tell her it's time.  Maybe they heard something happened?  Or it got to close to the maximum age and decided it was becoming not worth the risk...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 19:17:10
subject: <b>Re: Fyatuk</b>
body:
{&quot;I think she probably had her first touching at some point before going to Rhuidean. Egwene &amp; Co are not very experienced and the story seems to imply that it takes a while before you can sense the ability before its manifested.&quot;}<br /><br />Moiraine was also in the Stone and she knew Aviendha had the ability, too. She had thoughts about taking her to Tar Valon.<br /><br />{&quot;Also the WO calling Aviendha seemed rather sudden. They knew she was a channeler a while ago, but didn't pull her in. Then suddenly call her in and tell her it's time. Maybe they heard something happened? Or it got to close to the maximum age and decided it was becoming not worth the risk...&quot;}<br /><br />They had been through the Rings as well as being Dreamwalkers. They were also expecting Moiraine, Lan and Rand. (If they didn't show up they would, or almost surely would die, IIRC). And Aviendha was cerainly a little late to manifest the ability for one born with the Spark. (I do believe she's the same age as Egwene and Elayne, isn't she?) From the way the letter reads, they already knew she could channel, and it was time for her to take her first step to becoming a Wise One, and that meant going to Rhuidean.<br /><br />I read your theory before reading this one too, and took some of that for what I was trying to say here. As you were saying, the first Touching involves unconscious incomplete grasping. i.e., not weaving anything knowingly, just doing something by needing it desperately enough to be done, and using your own strength. If that is the case, I don't believe Aviendha actually saw any flows until later, just like Rand or Nynaeve. (Of course we're never told if she got the sickness, and from all appearances she didn't). <br /><br />I don't see the WO's letting someone with her potential being subjected to possibly suffering that fate. (And of course, they could have foreseen her coming through it OK as well. However, you must also remember there is a lot of ifs and maybes in those dreams they read, too. Pretty risky, IMO, unless they are absolutely sure.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-17 19:59:16
subject: <b>huh</b>
body:
duh, of course u bloody dim wit fool that is a given and of no concequence or need to be said at the moment &quot;sigh&quot;.


created: 2004-01-18 15:10:29
subject: <b>*blink*</b>
body:
...Sorry, I was trying to decipher the comment that preceded mine.<br /><br />Anyway, great theory, well-argued and well-supported. Yay Aviendha!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-03 20:02:22
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
oooo yes do i ever<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-26 21:10:37
subject: <b>Let's see...</b>
body:
You've proven Avi knows *of* balefire, or at least the name.<br /><br />You've proven she was around when Balefire was being weaved.<br /><br />but that doesn't necessarily translate in knowing how to do the weave.<br /><br />Anyone with the power can see weaves, although perhaps not their &quot;shadows&quot;<br /><br />So by following your theory, anyone who'd ever been around balefire and wasn't dead could do it.<br /><br />Certain weaves have a lot of complexity and I wouldn't doubt that balefire is one of them.<br /><br />Also, people rarely get things right on the first try, think of all the practicing evrybody is always doing to get things perfect.<br /><br />Sure some people stumbled into the knowledge, like Avi stumbled into Travelling, even if she doesn't remember how to do it now the way she did it at first.<br /><br />(On a side-note: I think the travelling Sorelia taught Cadusuane is the type Avi did so she might get over her portal problem soon when that info reaches her.)<br /><br />Now for some answering of comments.<br /><br /><br />&quot;what about the sul'dam that can see the weaves then?&quot;<br />Erquu <br /><br />The sul'dam see the weaves when they're connected to someone by the adam. Basically, they're milking off their damane holding the power at the moment. You'll notice that usually when this is mentioned, their always connected and their damamne is holding the power.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;So, do you think she had her first touching earlier? Would the Wise Ones let her go over the Dragonwall knowing she had? Or start teaching her before she went to Rhuidean?<br />Light in the Night  &quot;<br /><br />I think she did. She knew she was going to be a wise one. She joined the crossing because she didn't want to go. And they really couldn't do much about it. (cept punish her when she got back)<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;RJ doesn`t need to use that information any more.&quot;<br />jofraz  <br /><br />that's like saying RJ doesn't need to use the info about Min's veiwings anymore. Or Perrins wolf sense. Or elaida's fortelling...or even Nicola's taveren-spotting ability. I doubt he would have given something that important to her is it wasn't important in more that just one scene.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;I'm fairly sure that they hadn't discovered Unravelling or Unweaving, or woteva, in the Age of Legends&quot;<br />Steel Heron <br /><br /><br />Avi says that the Wise ones basically teach it to everyone of them who can channel. Something about, if you can make it, you can unravel it. Unraveling your stitches was the analogy we were given. Makes me think it isn't really that new. Perhaps it was big in the AOL. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />so, while I do agree with your theory, I think it jumps to conclusions too fast...and I also think that if she could, she would've done it already.


