# w_comment

created: 2003-04-11 04:37:23
subject: <b>What's Setalle's part?</b>
body:
If you're right (and I think so) then what is Setalle Anan part in the stories? RJ wouldn't mentioned her and then forget her, would he?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 17:11:06
subject: <b>well done!</b>
body:
I read throguh this thinknig &quot;get to soemthing I didn't figure out in 2 seconds on my own&quot; Then I saw where you reasoned out who she was, and my jaw dropped. It's so perfect, it makes absolute sense. For some reason I found myself itching to look at the history of Amyrllin Seats, now I doubt I need bother. great investigative work. I think this one is darn well solved.


created: 2003-08-24 15:09:27
subject: <b>Satalle used to be an Amirlyn</b>
body:
It's pretty obvious by now that Satalle Anan was an AS.  But with her personality, and the way Joline almost gets scared when she hears her voice in the dark, I think points to more.  She was a stilled Amirlyn, erased from the general tower records, and she just changed her name.  Most of the Kin changed their names at least in the beginning once they got away from the tower, why couldn't Satalle change hers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-21 11:17:52
subject: <b>Wow Cant believe I havent read this before now.</b>
body:
This was an amazing theory.  Very well thought out and spoken even better.  Im going to go reread all of those chapters now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  This post has me excited.


created: 2003-12-11 17:42:34
subject: <b>Amazing theory... some additions...</b>
body:
First of all, to all those thinking she's a disposed Amrylin: <br />[TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 73-74] &quot;She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal...She did it for forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl... Then one day, Martine's maid found her unconscious on the floor of her sitting room. Burned out...That was more than twenty-five years ago...She vanished once she was well enough to slip out of the Tower... &quot;<br />^ Taken right from the theory itself. Look, it says BURNED, not STILLED. She was not an Amrylin. How would they force an Amrylin to Burn herself? Why not just Still her?<br />Second, about Anan wearing the A'dam- She showed no sign of receiving any emotions, but you have to consider the situation- Mog was a furious captured Forsaken. All who held her leash mentioned the overwhelming hatred. Joline, on the other hand, a trained Aes Sedai, isn't in a situation like that- the only thing she might show would be a little fear. You can't expect the reactions to be the same from two completely different women.<br />Next, I'll bring in another qoute I found-<br />   The woman had to feel the pressure of the flows, and even a half-wit would have known what those invisible bonds must be, yet she [Anan] did not blink! Her green-flecked eyes narrowed, no more. &quot;So one of you can channel, at least,&quot; she said calmly.<br />-CoS, Small Sacrifices<br />  Before I came to these posts, I didn't know that a burnt Sedai could not sense the power. I know, though, that a Stilled one could, and I suspected Burning did the same thing. Since she did not show any hint of knowing who did it, or even the knowledge they could channel at all, proves even more so that she was burnt. Sure, she could be hiding it, yet she never bothered to hide the other clues that she knew a little too much about the tower than a normal Innkeeper.<br /> A final thought- as much as I would like to see Janata back in action, I think that being Burned is final, while Stilling can be healed. Nynaeve sensed a cut- it was two ends that she just had to connect together. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that Burning removes even those ends that Nynaeve would use to build from. Also, it leaves some balance- one more thing, besides death, that is impossible to heal.


created: 2004-01-14 04:10:24
subject: <b>fine theory</b>
body:
This is probably the best theory i've seen on this site.  I'd also like to point out that bit about martine janata would seem to be another time-tested classical RJ writing technique of dropping a 16 ton weight on your lap for a clue that takes years to finally sink-in<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 17:05:33
subject: <b>Great Job- now for a twist</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I love the conclusion the Setalle is the burnt out AS who was studying terangreal. She is not one of the deposed Amyrlins from the end of the Aiel War. Siuan noted both of those Amyrlins were very old, and that they both died. Now I want to toss a twist into it, Setalle's study of terangreal, and the fervor of it, introduce a questions in my mind. <br /><br />It seems to me that we have hidden issues at two points in the past; the first is around the end of the Aiel War and I don't think it's relevant to this theory (Elaida &amp; Owyn= Elaida's overwhelming downfall). The second is about 70 years ago, around the time Setalle was nearing the shawl. I think if an AS was going to spend so much time studying terangreal she's be likely to be of the Brown Ajah, perhaps someone else can tell us for sure. It's not critical that she was Brown, but would make sense. What I'm getting at is Verin's behavior. There are two references throughout the series about Verin's plans- started 70 years ago. We've also come to learn that Verin isn't above 'coercing' novices, Accepted, or full Aes Sedai to help her achieve her ends. <br /><br />I think it's very likely Verin used her special form of Compulsion to 'encourage' a certain young sister's study of terangreal, in hopes of finding something she (Verin) could use to further her cause. Verin, of course, is Brown Ajah, that's why I think it'd be convenient for their paths to have crossed. What would happen if Verin and Setalle run into one another now, perhaps at a meeting involving Mat, Tuon, and Egwene following the Seanchan raid at Tar Valon?<br /><br />Am I way off base? Congrats again on the theory, I've been trying to remember how Setalle could have been connected to the Tower since it seemed so obvious she was.


created: 2004-03-17 07:29:37
subject: <b>Mat fading &amp; a wild guess</b>
body:
I think Mat's fading in Egwene's dream is because he has been badly injured in the Seanchan attach of Ebou Dar.<br /><br />My personal favourite for Setalle Anan's identity is Seraille Bagand<br /><br /> &quot;Both (Gerra KIsahr) controlled the Tower itself...Sereille by the sheer force of her will&quot;  PoD Stronger than Written Law<br />although her reign was 866 - 890 NE (The World of RJ'sWOT), which probably makes her too old to have been young when she knew Zarya Alkese. Also I'm not sure how she died / was deposed


created: 2004-05-31 13:02:08
subject: <b>but...</b>
body:
mat didn't die in Caemlyn, because Rahvin died before he could hit them with lightning. man, that's obscure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-15 13:22:55
subject: <b>disregard my previous post...</b>
body:
...i was tired. Here's another supporting quote for Setalle's case: &quot;Before Siuan and Leane, no woman had been tried and stilled in one hundred and forty years, and none burned out in at least a dozen&quot; LoC, The Storm Gathers.<br /><br />so the time frame is right, i think. How old are Setalle's children? Assuming that she was the last to be burnt out; i can't be bothered to look that up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-15 13:27:55
subject: <b>guess not</b>
body:
should have reread the theory b4 posting<br /><br />Vandene mentions a certain sister who burned herself out, a Martine Janata..... [TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 73-74] &quot;She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal...She did it for forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl... Then one day, Martine's maid found her unconscious on the floor of her sitting room. Burned out...That was more than twenty-five years ago...She vanished once she was well enough to slip out of the Tower...<br /><br />oh well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 02:28:35
subject: <b>Reread the last chapter of Winter's Heart!</b>
body:
A good portion of this theory seems to rest on the use of the two great sa'angreal. It's kind of hard to use a <br />sa'angreal that has been turned into a useless heap of slag! And since the one that is a useless peice of junk is<br />the one that Nynaeve would have to use, the prospect of her resurrecting Rand would have to be slim to NONE!


created: 2001-06-12 03:04:41
subject: <b>true but...</b>
body:
Hi.  this is an old theory of mine - banged it off ages and ages ago when I was still reading the books for the first time-I hadn't read 'Winter's Heart' then-bummer :-(<br /><br />I still like the idea of Rand being resurrected but I've updated my theory quite a bit since then - obviously the female sa'angreal has to be fixed if its to be used again by Nyn, or else the healing will have to be done by a male.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-12 07:46:21
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
First, the female sa'angreal isn't destroyed, just the access key, the ter'angreal.  Perhaps it can be mended or another can be created.  Second of all, there are two instances, I don't have the books in front of me but I know they are there, where someone comments that Nynaeve would not be happy until she healed somebody three days dead.  That is said twice.  Jesus was ressurected on the third day.  I would really like to see Rand die and stay dead, but it is my opinion that he will die and be ressurected after three days by Nynaeve.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 09:00:27
subject: <b>One dead little key...</b>
body:
Umm...in WH the female key was decimated guys, remember?  So there's no more linking going on w/ those sa'angreal unless they get another female key


created: 2001-06-12 09:09:42
subject: <b>3 days dead...</b>
body:
I hate te fact that Rand could die and be ressurected (Jordan WANTS us to beleive &quot;blood on the rocks&quot; means death, while I don't think so...) but Vergincetorix's got one heck of a point!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 10:19:22
subject: <b>Healing the dead?</b>
body:
I don't think that Rand is going to die at SG, the prophecy doesn't say so then way should we believe it?<br />And if he'll die I would like to see him stay dead, I hate novels were a good guy can't just die and stay dead. About the Choedan Kal (mb wrong spelling) I remember that there is the upper half of the female key in the Panarch Palast in Tanchico. From Choedan Kal used to cleanse Saidin is destroyed only the upper half (I'm not sure about that one) so Elayne might reassamble them and create a new Choedan Kal. (I think they'll be needed at TG)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 12:31:02
subject: <b>Umm... My thoughts</b>
body:
Throughout the series there have been few constances, but one of the things that there is NO hint to whatsoever is the ability to raise the dead. Nyn doesn't believe it is possible, i can't give an exact quote but i can try &quot;anything short of death should be healable&quot; The only person in the series that can 'raise the dead' is the DO, which would mean for Rand to get ressurected, the only person likely to do it would be the DO or The Creator, who seems to have already decided he's not affecting the world directly...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />MidKnight<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-12 15:05:48
subject: <b>There are a lot of reference to Rand dying and living again.</b>
body:
The snakes tell rand that inorder to live past Tarmon Gaidon he has to die.  Egwene has a vision of a man who has died when it was important that he lives.  Nicola's vision had a man who is dead but yet lives.  Min had a vision of Rand touching another man and one of them lives and the other dies. <br /><br />There are too many hints that say that Rand will die before TG is finished to think otherwise IMHO.  Whether or not this is done by resurection or some other method, using the horn for instance, is still up in the air.  <br /><br />I am inclined to believe that the death that Rand experience will be something similar to Mat's death at Rhuidean. Maybe Rand will have his heart stop and Elayne will immediately wrap a keeping spell around Rand's corpse and take him to Tar Valon where his body can be fixed and his heart started again.  This isn't all that different from the kids who drown in ice water and are 'dead' in the sense that their heart isn't beating for tens of minutes before being rescued.<br /><br />I am not saying this is the way it will happen. I am just coming up with one method it COULD happen.  (I don't think it is likely; there is a certain yechh factor in it)  There are likely hundreds of other ways that Rand can be brought back from the dead without resurection.<br /><br />Then again this is a RAFO.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 15:28:12
subject: <b>What about the old wound???</b>
body:
What if during the Last Battle at Shoyul Ghul, Rand's wound that Baalzamon(Ishamael) gave him breaks open?  That would give the prophecies their &quot;blood on the rocks&quot;.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-12 19:52:10
subject: <b>The snakes speak the truth</b>
body:
What the finns said to Rand about the last battle was pretty explicit. I don't think they would say that Rand must die if he wants to live when what they mean is that he must pretend to be dead or be seriously wounded. If Rand didn't get resurrected afterwards, though, the rest of their prophecy wouldn't make sense. However, I think it's unlikely that Nynaeve could actually heal Rand once he's dead. Perhaps Rand will be killed by Moridin or Fain, and then whoever killed him will be balefired.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> Myme <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 21:06:28
subject: <b>Rand dying...</b>
body:
I personally think that Rand will -not- die. But you must also understand that if many people believe him dead, he will be dead. I think that he must take a deathly wound at the last battle. Then I believe that Egwene's viewings along witht he others of him laying on a death bed or pyre and what not would be because of this near fatal blow.<br /><br />Now, as to comment on Nyn. I believe she heals Rand from this blow. Rand, believed to be dead by the world is 'dead' for three days. This brings in the Christ allusion. On the third day he rose again, blah blah blah. Nyn, is not satisfied until she heals someone three days dead.<br /><br />Tying it all up: Rand is believed dead by everyone but those close to him. He is believed dead for three days, and near death in actuality. Then Nyn, being the All Powerful, Grand Master Healer that she is will heal the wound. Thus Rand survives to live another day.<br /><br />-Rawin<br />


created: 2001-06-12 21:25:24
subject: <b>To extend the above comment...</b>
body:
but Nynaeve is so exhausted curing the mortal wounds that serious and perhaps permanent wounds remain.  Thus, Rand must walk away with a cane in beggar's clothes with a band around his eye...the Fisher, from The Path of Daggers.<br /><br />BTW the Fisher of men was another name for Christ, adding to the Christ allusion.  Actually, there are a lot of Christ allusions, just look at the poem at the beginning of the Great Hunt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 22:03:42
subject: <b>What about this...</b>
body:
For those of you who think that Rand is not going to die during the Last Battle, what about this?<br /><br />&quot;Rand,  I  like Alivia. I do, even if she does  make  Nynaeve have kittens left and right.&quot; One fist planted on her hip, Min leaned  forward and pointed a finger at his nose. &quot;But she  is going to kill you.&quot; She bit off every word. &quot;You  said  she  was going to help me die,&quot; he said  quietly. &quot;Those  were your words.&quot;<br /><br />Just an observation...


created: 2001-06-12 22:06:34
subject: <b>Alivia</b>
body:
Bah, help him die can still be she sets up some illusion or furthers the belief that Rand died at the Last Battle. Does it say she will indefinately kill him? Like, she chops your head off and kicks your dead body?


created: 2001-06-14 00:51:48
subject: <b>Whew...</b>
body:
All I can say is thank my lord and savior, (Robert Jordan, of course) that there are others who want Rand to die and STAY dead, for good.  Someone said it would be weak if Elayne's giving birth at SG fullfilled the propshesy.  IMHO, anything but Rand biting the dust would be a major downfall of the series.  Rand, I believe, wants to die in Tarmon Gai'don.  It would be...I don't know, more poetic, and for me, more satisfying if Rand did die permenently.  &quot;Poetic&quot; isn't the word I need.  When you look at the series as a whole, you'll see that it's, for the most part, a tragedy waiting to happen.  Besides some parts with Mat, it's people constantly dealing, or trying to deal, with very real and dangerous problems.  I think Rand dying would tie up the novel perfectly.  And for all you people that presume to know what will happen later on because there're too many Jesus or Arthurian legend comparisons, all you are doing is down-grading RJ's writing style.  He's blended every mythology and religion into these books.  To discover how he will end it is to become a scholor and know every legend and religion and then take a stab at which one RJ will base off of, unless of course, he comes up with something the world has never seen before.  I believe the latter.


created: 2001-06-14 02:27:19
subject: <b>Hi BalefireBoy!</b>
body:
True, true, but as I realised a few days after I posted the theory, Rand dying for good doesn't actually invalidate my theory.<br /><br />Rand could die, be resurrected, and then die for good a second time.  But thats another theory...


created: 2001-06-14 03:45:54
subject: <b>Quick thoughts</b>
body:
First of all the male sa'angreal can be used by Nynaeve to heal Rand. If she links with a man (we'll say Logain for example) then he could use the key and let Nynaeve direct the flows.<br /><br />   Nynaeve might have subconsious memories of how the key worked. If she went to T'A'R' with Elayne then they could figure out how to make one in the waking world. There might just be another one out there as well.<br /><br />   By the way put me down in the if-Rand-dies-keep-him-dead-for-bloody-good column. Of course The snakes may have told Rand the truth, just not the truth he thought. If Rand dies at TG then he'll be reborn in some future age to fight the dark one again. Thus the dragon (Rands true self) will live by dying. Aelfin may have meant 'the dragon' when they reffered to Rand as 'you'. These people could confuse Aes Sedai with out missing a beat or straining their brains.<br /><br />   I had a dream once that maybe Elayne will have to miss the last battle while she is in labor. When Rand dies as the Trakand twins are born (do you really think she'll call them by the surname Al'Thor and make them targets?) it could be seen as the dawing of life for the twins as their eyes see the world for the first time. Thus the day dawns twice. Or when Shaitan is defeated the Third Age comes to an end and the Fourth Age Dawns with the world safe for another turning of the wheel. Thus the day dawns twice.<br /><br />   If Rand gets the resurrection treatment after a slew of others die in the battle (whom would be just forgotten and after their respective funerals) then that would be so cheap and meaningless that it would be the ultimate anti-climax. Come on people let's at least hope for an ending that lets a savior die and not be returned.<br /><br />   Besides if you were Rand Al'Thor would you want to be around after the last battle knowing that the world hated you and had no further reason to keep you alive?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 20:55:34
subject: <b>Blood on the Rocks.......</b>
body:
ok. i was reading the Prophecies of the Dragon in german class today ( great use of my time before finals eh? ) and then i came here, and ive been thinking about ' his blood on the rocks '<br /><br />I dont remember for sure, but i dont think it says ' his blood spilt on the rocks ', just ' his blood on the rocks '.<br />Now, the Aiel are his blood. Elyane is his blood ( distant, distant cousin ) the children that Aviendha and later Elayne will have are his blood. Any of these people could be fighting at the Last Battle, which fulfills the ' Blood on the rocks '. <br /><br /><br />....oh bah. i just got my copy of the Prophecies. ' His blood stains the rocks '. oh well. If its that, then it could be Aiel, or Elayne, or his own blood. It never says he dies.<br /><br />While im talking about the Prophecies, im going to bring these up.<br /><br />&quot; The Reborn One, marked and bleeding, <br />dances the sword in dreams and mist &quot;<br />I think thats a referance to Falme, since thats where he got one of his Heron'd Hands. he fought Ish in the clouds.<br /><br />&quot; Chains the Shadowsworn to his will &quot;<br />I think this could be a referance to Asmodean, but it could also be some other DF. Maybe Taim, or Cyndane ( Lanfear )<br /><br />&quot; from the city, lost and forsaken &quot;<br />Most likely Rhuridean, or maybe Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />&quot; Leads the spears to war once more &quot;<br />his battles with Couldin, and others to come in the future<br /><br />&quot; breaks the spears and makes them see,<br />long hidden in the ancient dream &quot;<br />obviously him telling the Aiel their true past, and the huge Shaido split.<br /><br />&quot; Into the heart he thrusts his sword,<br />into the heart to hold their hearts<br />Who draws it out shall follow after<br />What hand can grasp that fearful blade? &quot;<br />i think this is a referance to the Stone of Tear. Rand attacked it, then held it and got the people's support. Dashiva went and took Callandor out, and he pretty much died. so.<br /><br /><br />&quot; What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up &quot;<br />i think the exalted is maybe the nobles of countries, since Rand has little to no respect for any of them. it could also be the Aes Sedai, since Rand, Mat, and Perrin all have little to no love for them.<br /><br />Whats raised up could be the Asha'man, since being a male channler prior to them was seen as evil and such. it could also be the Aiel. being ' bloody savages ', but then being seen as amazing soldiers could count as being raised up.<br /><br /><br />&quot; The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south &quot;<br /><br />Ok. North=Borderlands. East=Aiel. Two cultrues raised and bred to fight the Shadow. They will definetly be strong allies by the time the Last Battle rolls around.<br /><br />West=Seanchan, or Western Coast countries. South=Tear/Illian. or it could be the Land of the Madmen.<br /><br />If its the Seanchan, they would prolly make some-what good allies with the Land of the Madmen inhabitants. maybe. They would do well, i guess, with Illian or Tear, since both are Sea Trading cities, and the Seanchan have an amazing Navy.<br /><br />If its the Western Coast Countries, then the Land of the Madmen is left out, and only Illian and Tear can be made allies.<br /><br /><br /><br />God to Mortal Cameramen<br />Knave<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-14 21:30:45
subject: <b>Some Modern Mythology</b>
body:
Reading Lord Savaunt's theory (I think it was his, anyway) about the twins being born and Elayne not calling them Al'Thor to make them a target -- I just flashed on one of our modern myths.  Twins born to a famous father, but must be concealed to avoid people hunting them down?  How's this grab you; Elayne keeps the girl and calls her Trakand; the boy gets sent off to Emond's Field with the name Al'Thor.  <br />The boy grows up and becomes bored by his farmer's life, and is interested in learning about his father; the girl is raised in Caemlyn as a princess.  <br />The boy meets up with some crazy old wizard (probably some old Asha'Man), they go off on some damn fool idealistic crusade, meets up with some roguish mercenary, and rescues the princess from some huge fortress.  <br />It seems to me that Jordan borrows so wonderfully from ancient mythology and the more recent Tolkien; why not throw some George Lucas in too?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 01:27:38
subject: <b>The Dragon will die</b>
body:
I agree on part.....Rand will live.  I think that as the Last Battle approaches we will see more and more of Lews Therin Telamon.  Who pretty much is possessing Rand already.  I think that the spirit of the Kinslayer will forever rest at the end of the Last Battle, leaving Rands body and letting him live to be his own person.  To sum it all up....The Kinslayer dies and Rand LIVES.


created: 2001-06-15 01:35:19
subject: <b>Min's vision and the snakes prediction</b>
body:
I think you all are looking at this the wrong way.  Min had the vision of the two men touching, and one dying.  The snakes said that he would die.  Whick him were they talking about?  Rand or LTT?  Maybe Rand and LTT split at the Last Battle, and insted of Rand dying, it is LTT?  That would be a cool end too the series, and fulfill all of the prophesies also.  I mean, Rand will die anyways, of old age, and probably be reborn again, no matter how he dies, so what's the use of making him die a bloody, painful death?  To many of those in fantasy already.<br /><br /><br />All hail my mighty wit   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 07:56:00
subject: <b>Quick note Knave</b>
body:
Narishima drew out callandor, not Dashiva.  If Rand had sent Dashiva to get it, the forsaken would have used callandor against Rand(since he is osangar and aginor).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 12:09:45
subject: <b>I'll admit that he must die.</b>
body:
But we really don't know to what this refers. What does means viewing about Alivia mean. Help to die? It could mean that she might help him to get rid of LTT, but I don't think that Rand would agree that adressing him with you includes LTT. But it may be right. But it also be that he will sacrifice himself in due to rescue the world. And he'll need a stronger channler than Nyn. or Nyn. might doesn't want to help im in a plan that would kill himself. That would also be a Jesus like death. The term that he will live again could refer to his next incarnation if wouldn't sacrifice himself the wheel would be broken and there won't be any humans anymore. He could also return after three days but there's still no one out there who could convince me in which way that will happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 01:48:15
subject: <b>Day dawning twice</b>
body:
I always thought there was going to be a solar eclipse... Just because that's always been a big deal in mythology (since ancient people thought eclipses, floods, etc. were the gods getting pissy, and the DO's already changed the weather, another thing that gods did when they got mad-- cp. Zeus when Prometheus gave men fire). The phrasing works.. total eclipses don't last that long, and when they fade, the light gradually comes back.. like dawning.. and, just to tie it in with the rest of the thread, that can be when Rand dies. When everything's black and everyone's gaping, it gives Fain the perfect opportunity to sneak up behind Rand and stab him in the back. Or anyone else who's still around by the time the Last Battle rolls around.


created: 2001-06-20 05:30:13
subject: <b>The sa angreal are destroyed</b>
body:
<br /> nyaneve cannot use the immense stutues through the acess keys because after cleaning the taint from saidin, the female sa angreal access key is destroyed (the male one is intact)<br /><br /> therefore she cannot use that sa angreal to heal death...<br /><br />in book 4, Moiraine says to Rand:<br /><br />you are not the creator... and death cannot be healed<br /><br /> that doesnt work out<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-06-20 05:54:40
subject: <b>Humpf!</b>
body:
Dumb, dumb, dumb.  You are all dumb.  The key was destroted, not the sa'angreal.  Nynaeve can still use the damn thing, she just can't use it through the key.  Idiots.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 07:17:09
subject: <b>The Sa'Angreal</b>
body:
can only be used by the Choedan Kal otherwise they are very dangerous to handle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 11:41:58
subject:
<b>Thoughts from a newbie.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I'm a little behind the curve, new to the site, but actually I like this idea of Rand being resurrected.  Personally, I don't see a crystal clear ending for this story.  After all, it's the Wheel of Time, there are no beginnings, and there are no endings either (minus balefire, but that's another story).<br /><br />As far as Nynaeve and someone else using the Choedan Kal to do this, I don't think it's that out of the question.  In Winter's Heart Cyndane says &quot; 'Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each.' &quot;  She does not say that he has &quot;the two access keys&quot;, but implies that more were made and could exist out in Randland.  Aran'gar supports this by exclaiming that &quot;I thought the keys were all desroyed!&quot;  <br /><br />One reoccuring theme throughout the series is that there really are few bounds.  We keep meeting stronger and stronger people that can use the One Power.  We learn that stilling/gentling can be Healed.  The Chosen learn that &quot;involuntary link&quot; (a Warder's bond) is possible.  Everyone seems to think there is a barrier where death is concerned, but maybe a way is found to bring back the soul, as well as the functions of life.<br /><br />I'm not saying it's going to happen, but with all of the twists and turns so far, I think it's a set-up for a possiblity.<br /><br />FACPOV,<br /><br />Stats <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Statman<br /><br />- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 14:39:42
subject: <b>Few Points...</b>
body:
That's pretty good for a self-proclaimed Newbie.  You sound smarter than people who have read the series 5 million times.  Anyway, to clear things up the sa'angreal ARE the Choden Kal.  That is their name.  I imagine the only access key remaining is the one for the male sa'angreal Rand used.  There could be more hidden but I don't think anyone will find them.  And by the way, Rand sent Narishma to draw out Callandor.  And here is a piece of interesting prophesy hardly anyone brought up found in tSR page 244 hardback,  &quot;Into the heart he thrusts the sword, into the heart to hold their hearts.  Who draws it out shall follow after, What hand can grasp that fearful blade?&quot;  All I'm gonna say is that RJ seems to have a larger role for the pretty boy asha'man.


created: 2001-10-01 18:13:54
subject: <b>Option 5</b>
body:
I think perhaps Rand will somehow be forced to sacrifice his children on the slopes of Shayol Guhl.  I am by no means an expert, as I am only on my third reading.  But since he is Lews Therin reborn, maybe he is destined to be known as the &quot;Kinslayer&quot; again...


created: 2001-10-05 09:33:52
subject: <b>Rand's thoughts</b>
body:
i guess i might as well bite into this theory like everyone else!  first off, the access key is damaged, NOT the sa'angreal. therefore Ny can still use the damn thing.  and if we need someone to make an access key, there's always Elayne!  as for it being dangerous, ALL our heroes are constantly doing dangerous things that somehow seem to work out anyway. i remember shortly after Rand receieved his wound from Baalzamon (sp), &lt;although it could have been after he asked the finns,&gt;, i think he was either practicing the sword or fighting for real (i can't remember), the wound is throbbing and he says something to the effect that he knew it would be that wound that would kill him in the end.  i think we should take it to mean that during tarmon gaidon, the wound will bust open and cover the rocks with blood. it appears he must die, but we all know that he has had some hints he could live with a lot of if's and but's.  now, i can tell you all want the poor guy dead, but how would that satisfy min's vision of him floating on a boat with his lionsword, dedicated spear, and she who sees beyond?  i think we all know by now that min is never wrong, so tell me how RJ can kill off the dude for good without making min a liar?<br /><br />by the way, i love the whole Elayne bearing his blood (baby) on the rocks of SG, or the Aiel being his blood and taking a beating on the rocks of SG, and all the other theories.  i swear if we all dedicated ourselves to our professional lives as much as we do to WOT, we'd all be millionaires!  <br />Oh, and when someone brought up twins and having to change their name, the first thing i thought of was the whole Sith v. Jedi thing, so kudos go to &lt;stranger in the shadows&gt;!


created: 2001-11-16 23:27:15
subject: <b>Very Good Also + Another hint although not so strong</b>
body:
IN winter's Heart in the chapter &quot;a cup a tea&quot; (i think that's it) whats-his-name, the chief clerk dude<br />says that he would not believe Lord Rand to be dead unless he sat with the body for 3 days.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Dagashei <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> lord_tiger_vii@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> dagashei@hotmail.com <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Observer of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-22 04:25:54
subject: <b>My Thoughts...</b>
body:
Well. It is mentioned countless times that prophecies are more difficult to figure out than they sound. Jordan wouldn't even mention that if the prophecy about Rand's blood were slightly misleading. Everyone assumes death, that would seem to be the misleading part. In fact, that theory holdes more credit because Rand believes that, and it would be a more dynamic ending if the prophecy meant something entirely different than death (enter any of the other plausible ideas from previous posts here). Credence givin to that because the Elfinn told Matt that he would die and live again- his death wasn't a real clinical death, just momentary. Why would Rand's have to be different. I say, there will be a surprise, not just Rand dying. Do you expect any less?


created: 2002-04-11 23:17:30
subject: <b>Speculations on Resurrection</b>
body:
Don't forget there have been several other resurrections already throughout the series:<br />      - The use of Balefire has brought Mat, Avi and   Asmodean back.<br />      - Birgitte was dead - Moghedien brought her 'back to life'.<br /><br />Birgitte implies in the Great Hunt that the Dragon is 'bound to the wheel' in the same way she is. Perhaps Nynaeve remembers the weave Moghedien used.<br /><br />Balefire could also result in the day dawning twice.<br /><br />As to theries of Elayne somehow being at TG, there is a plan to kidnap here by the Captain of her bodyguard. <br /><br />Anyway, just a few ideas of what could happen.


created: 2002-08-28 17:22:23
subject: <b>Twice dawns the Day</b>
body:
I always thought that ment the Last Battle was going to be two days long. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 04:58:35
subject:
<b>Silly Christians!!!!!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />=</b>

body:
Idon't care if anyone is still looking at this theory and its posts, but i don't like the fact that every single christian has to bring up jesus and dog, oh i'm sorry god, into everything.  If there is a resemblence I don't give a rats @#*!  There is no need for it!  Sorry but this is my view and i can't help it.  <br /><br /><br />RJ(through Moraine) has already said that &quot;it is not possible to bring back the dead&quot;.  The only way I can think of is by using the two most powerfull sa'angreal.  with two very powerfull channelers.  But who would try?  Nynaeve and what man?  Who would want to try to bring back the Dragon?  None of the Forsaken(Chosen) for sure.  And what man would want to be second best?  None of the characters so far!


created: 2002-10-29 23:07:05
subject: <b>Silly NON-Christian</b>
body:
The Christ mythos is the most familiar ressurrection story in Western thought.  This is because we are not taught about rebirth and reincarnation.  Our entire damn counrty was founded by CHRISTIANS!!!  This leads to an understandable lack of knowledge on other mythology.<br />Ressurection after three days is a commonn myth involving gods and heros the world over.  Look up the true Green Man myths, or Jack in the Pulpit.  But don't berate christians for not knowing something they are not taught, and I might add something they are taught is wrong (looking into other religions).<br /><br />Just for the record I AM pagan.  Thankyouverymuch!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 10:12:32
subject: <b>Bloody Rocks</b>
body:
It's been a while since i read the serie, brothers girlfriend is reading the first one for like 3 months and i cant fget my hands on it to start again. anyways I think Rand does die in the last battle, and by the Do's power.  Although I believe the creator or LTT will have a hand in his ressurection, the creator has played no part in the past spinnings of the wheel, but there is a lot of passages where it mentions this spinning will not be like the others, and the only person able to use the true source is Moridin, so who helped Rand in SL when he was about to fall and who balefired Mash adder(sp) with him?  In my opinion After Rand is ressurected by the creator he is stronger in the power and cna defeat the dark one.  I belive Rand kills himself in the end also, if you all remember while Rand is trining shienar Lan tells him of a swordform called &quot;sheathing the sword&quot;.  thats all to it really<br />


created: 2003-01-29 19:33:33
subject: <b>Not really</b>
body:
Good well thought out idea but i still like the idea of the real dragon (LTT) dieing or at least dieing in some sense of the word at the last battle as a part of rand and there for allowing rand to be just rand and no longer the dragon reborn. That way he could die and not really be dead cause i dont think there is any one who wants rand to go bye bye<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Denethor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 03:57:07
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
ok i had about 3 paragraphs of writing here before i got disconnected from the internet. your resuraction theory is impossible unless the melted accesss terangreal still work or someone can make new ones. higly doubtfull.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 12:15:35
subject: <b>He's dead! No, wait, he's alive!</b>
body:
What if Rand is killed by some miscellaneous baddie at TG. Aviendha or Nynaeve or someone gets really mad after Rand has bled for a bit, gone blue etc, and balefire's the baddie that killed him?  Something similar happened before. Can't remember which book, but when they went to Caemlyn to put manners on Rahvin, Rand saw Aviendha lying dead. Whatever killed her got balefired and she was hale and hearty again. maybe..


created: 2004-06-17 13:54:25
subject: <b>Elayne,Avienda, and Min</b>
body:
I am new to this sight so bare with me.<br /> In Nicola's foretelling in LOC She says,&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear,she who sees beyond. Three on the boat and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a knife.&quot;<br />I think that the phrases &quot;the lion sword,the dedicated spear, and she who sees beyond&quot; refer to Elayne, Avienda, and Min. For obvious reasons. I think this means these three (three on the boat) will rescue Rand as he lays dying after the great battle between him and the DO.<br />But the phrase he who is dead yet lives suggest that the theory about LTT dying and Rand living is correct and that maybe LTT gets killed by the DO while the DO is trying to kill Rand instead. And of course you have to throw Alivia in this somehow. Maybe she tells Rand of a trick to seperate himself from LTT. And in turn the DO kills LTT thinking he is killing the Dragon (which he really is).<br />I don't know but this phrase seems to me to suggest that Rand will not die a final death in the Great battle. <br />But the great battle will not be the end because Nicola goes on to say &quot;The great battle done but the world not done with battle&quot; To me this means that the last battle will not be the battle with the DO but like a world war. To further support this theory Nicola-&quot;The land divided by the return (Seanchan) and the guardians(Ashaman)balance out the servants.(Aes Sedi) The future teeters on the edge of a blade.&quot; <br />HMMM....Doesn't that make you wonder?<br />So for me the battle with the DO is not going to be the end. Rand will defeat the DO only to have to contend with the world war afterwards. And correct me if I am wrong but doesn't everyone say Randwill have to be there at the LAST BATTLE? <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-23 02:15:21
subject: <b>Nicola's Foretelling</b>
body:
My take on prophecy:<br />       &quot;The lion sword (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" />), the dedicated spear (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" />),she who sees beyond (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />). Three on the boat (his women) and he who is dead yet lives (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />). The great battle done (Tarmon Gaidon), but the world not done with battle (killing remaining darkfriends, etc). The land divided by the return (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />) and the guardians (Asha'man) balance out the servants (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />). The future teeters on the edge of a knife.&quot;<br /><br />Referring to &quot;He who is dead yet lives&quot; = This is Rand/LTT After TG, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> IS dead, but he is in T'A'R, catching up  with Artur and the boys. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />, or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" />or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> knows how to pull someone of of T'A'R. They do so, and since he has a body in the real world (it's on that barge w/ his 3 ladies, being kept by a Keeping) he goes back to it. He was dead, and isn't anymore. Prophecy fulfilled, and everyone is happy. Of coursem I don't know how the rest of the prophecies will fit in  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Even for those of you who insist he'll be Healed from death, the Choedan Kal can be used. Why does Nynaeve have to be the one who Heals him? If anyone does, it'll be Flinn, with the Choedan Kal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;No one tells us how to be men. We just are&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Perhaps that is why you make such a bad job of it&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Let the Dragon ride again upon the winds of Time<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-15 14:53:06
subject: <b>A few things</b>
body:
First, as of KoD, we know that not only the key, but the actual Choeden Kal for females is melted. It's gone. No more. Callandor is now the #2 angreal in the world.<br /><br />That being said, I don't think it would even have been necessary to resurrect Rand.<br /><br />He's a hero of the horn, as Artur Hawkwing said. Thus, after he's killed at the Last Battle, he can come back when the Horn is sounded to spill his blood on the rocks again, then retreat to TAR...where the wondergirls know how to give him flesh again, a la Birgitte...<br /><br />So there we have a possibility of fulfilling the prophecy and keeping him alive in the end, without Creator intervention, DO lovin', or Healing death.<br /><br />Of course, RJ doesn't like the ideal situation, so there will be kinks.


created: 2006-07-09 23:08:59
subject: <b>No, no no...</b>
body:
Rand is GENTLED by ALIVIA after he defeats the DO.  remember it is written that to lose the One Power would be like dying...


created: 2009-05-28 18:55:14
subject: <b>nyneave ?</b>
body:
dont forget the foretelling of nyneave healing a man who is 3 days dead as this also adds weight to your theory


created: 2001-06-12 07:53:01
subject: <b>TRAVELING TIME</b>
body:
During early LoC Semi was in SG and A came Randland with D9M during early WH, so if traveling time from Seanchan to Randland is longer than timedifference between early LoC and early WH Semi cannot be Anath, bc A was then aboard a ship and I think that it would be almost impossible to travel in or out of moving ship, bc ships don't stay steady and they swing diagonally and horizantally even when they are anchored. Besides Semi could not find where the ship was when she returned, bc if she traveled back to place where that ship was when she left that ship she would had to swim or she would have cut something when she came back, bc gateway cuts trough anything and that ship would have swinged even if it was anchored. Besides that ship had many women aboard who could sense channeling, so S would have revealed herself, if she even embraced Saidar aboard that ship. However if the traveling time of the ship was shorter than the timedifference between early LoC and early WH and so A was in Seanchan during early LoC.I agree that Anath=Semirhage. So could somebody tell me how long it takes to travel from Seanchan to Randland?


created: 2001-06-12 10:04:49
subject: <b>So you think this PTH</b>
body:
Did you ever read the books? Do you know there's something like travelling?<br />Didn't you know that Moggy hid her ability to channel in<br />Salidar?<br />So read the books an comment again!!<br /><br />The theory is very good worked out, a very fundated and logical piece of work, one of the best so far I know.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 21:14:39
subject: <b>The Chapter's Title says it all</b>
body:
What A Veil Hides... Hrm, isn't the talent to cover one's appearance or abilities include something about Veil? This what a veil hides could indefinately mean the veil about Anath. That she is a forsaken... Straight and to the point.<br /><br />Rawin<br />Master of the Obvious


created: 2001-06-12 21:44:34
subject: <b>*sigh* To Wotan</b>
body:
*Satire mode on*<br /><br />Did you even read his theory?  He addressed the issue quite clearly.  Haven't you ever heard of a thing called it's-hard-to-travel-using-a-fixed-gateway-on-a-moving-object (ship).<br /><br />That said, the Seanchan ships are supposed to be even faster than the Atha'an Miere ones (partly because they abuse many damane to hurry the job).  Looking at the guide, the Aryth Ocean between Seanchan and mainland wotworld appears to be larger than the Atlantic Ocean.  Given this information, the combination of magic (causing storms to stop and ships to travel at max speed) it can't take more than two weeks if they know what they're doing.  Probably could be done in less time.  So, what was the time between the start of WH and Anath's rambling?<br /><br />I myself came up with the idea independently (like most WH readers) because the similarities are quite apparent, so I don't think there's any reason to thumbs-down this topic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 04:51:03
subject: <b>About those &quot;not being able to travel things&quot;</b>
body:
She may have been skimming, one don't seem to have to know either exactly where you're going to, or where you're from when you do that.<br />an one thing to add to the theory, tuon says that she had only asked anath to punish her once, but that anath had taken a strange pleasure in doing it which goes very well with semi being sadistic...


created: 2001-06-13 12:11:10
subject: <b>Uhhhh, your.master?</b>
body:
He was replying to the first guy's blackboard comment.  hence why it had PTH in the subject(that was the first guy's name).  So wotan DID read the theory, he said afterwords that he liked it and it was good.  Did you even bother to read all of his comment?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 21:59:46
subject: <b>mat and Anath</b>
body:
in LoC Eggy dreams of a dark woman menacing Mat. Perhaps Semi is the menacing woman in the dream?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">How I hate wotmania.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 23:24:20
subject: <b>Are ya ready for a headache...? This is gonna be a harsh one folks</b>
body:
Let's go back to the beginning. Ken Hornibrook submitted this theory. <br />PTH was the one who pointed out the problems with traveling by gateway on a ship.<br />Wotan ragged on PTH and asked if he'd ever read the book or heard of traveling (wich struck me as odd since that was what PTH had pointed out as flawed). Wotan  then said that he liked Ken Hornibrooks theory and that it was good work.<br />PTH then stepped in to give Wotan  a scolding (and rightly so) for raggin on PTH  and his thoughts and saying that he didn't even seem to read the books. The fact that Wotan did not seemed to have read and paid attention to PTH, made it a pot calling the pearl Kaf mug black. Your.Master was correcting him for not paying attention to what one person was saying, while chiding Wotan for not paying attention to the books. Your.Master was totally in the right in this.<br />Vercingetorix   stepped up to rant at Your.Master for raggin on Wotan about not paying attention when he did in fact do so. Vercingetorix   seemed under the impression that Your.Master had been of the opinoin that Wotan had been talking only to Ken Hornibrook and not anyone else. Vercingetorix   stated that Wotan was in favor of and liked Ken Horbrooks theory, and that Your.Master was raggin on him without paying attention himself. This tells me that Vercingetorix   didn't bother to properly read either post at all. Your.Master was snapping at Wotan going off on PTH with out proper foreknowledge. Wotan  praising or bashing Ken Hornibrook was not addressed what so ever by Your.Master . So now Vercingetorix   is raggin on folks for not having the proper downlow when he himself has no idea of what it is that is up. This needs to end NOW!<br /><br />   Everyone who post from her on further needs to first get a tatoo on their right and/or left arm with the current amount of messages on this entire thread upside down. Then they need to read it (that's why it needs to be upside down in respect to the arms positon and rest) until they can recite everyline and who said what by heart. Don't rag on a single person if you do not know what it is that is up. Now let's see if anyone can be a properly civil person to issue apoplogies if they are owed to someone.<br /><br />   For the record in the wrong are Vercingetorix   and Wotan . In the right are PTH  and Your.Master .<br />   PTH  is most deserving of an apology because Wotan was acting like an ass. He went off on him in a rude, uncouth, and altogether ignorant fasthion that he should aplogize for.<br /><br />   Vercingetorix  then needs to apologize to Your.Master for going off halfcocked and using the wrong loads. He decided to skim the conversation and then attack someone who had been quite clear on what it is that is up. He didn't even have the plain courtesy to read the post he attacked when he tried to call someone down for a sin that was his own.<br /><br />   Once the aplogies are out of the way I will take eveyone out for icecream and let you kids see if you can play nice. Now if you exscuse me I gotta pop a chill pill cause I have a fycking headache. This stuff is too gawddamn juvenile to be going on here. I say this in refference to all of those that are not acting maturely GROW THE FOCK UP!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 23:40:08
subject: <b>Quick correction</b>
body:
on Line 10 or 11 elven the text read that Yourmaster had called down wotan on blasting pth and chided wotan for not reading the books.<br /><br />   It should have said that wotan chided PTH for not reading the books when he has. <br /><br />   Sorry if anyone got offended by my language at the end by the way. I should have said Light BLinded wool heads and ash sucking goat kissers instead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 08:53:31
subject: <b>Oops <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Sorry about that YM and Lord Sauvant.  For the record, I did read all of the posts quite thoroughly.  I was just misreading them.  When YM said &quot;did you even read his theory&quot; I was assuming he meant the actual theory, and from that point on my response was jaded with that in mind.  So I'm sorry.  My bad.  Forgive me. I like vanilla ice cream by the way.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 18:10:03
subject: <b>Sorry PTH</b>
body:
Sorry PTH, Lord Savaunt was right about me reading your post not proberbly. And i admit that i haven't remembered that's impossible to travel on water.<br />And if my language has been to rude i apologize for that either. But the second point of my answer is still right.(About hiding channeling). The other point is the amount of time used to travel from Seanchan to Randland.<br />I estimate that a seanchan vessel is about 1.5 times slower than a Sea Folk raken. The journey from Tear to Tanchico takes about 10 days, so i would estimate the journy on the ship took about 30-40 days. PTH said that Semiraghe was in SG in LoC. I don't know exactly how much time it is between WH and LoC, (I don't have the newer books here) but i think enough time to travel from Seanchan to Randland. <br />I hope this post is better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 14:57:52
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
i think to remember from one of the last books where the chosen had a meeting and Semirage did not meet. Could it be that she was on a moving boat surounded with damane??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 06:05:22
subject: <b>Ice Cream is had by all.</b>
body:
It's good to see that this was all a bunch of misunderstandings that were easy to get past. On other web message board type places that I've seen grudges can go on and on forever because some folks are just too stuborn to admit their wrong or even might be. It's nice to know that WoT fans are above that sor've thing.<br /><br />   By the way in reffrence to inversion (the technical term for hding the ability to channel) I think it only works if you aren't channeling. If not is at least harder to maintain it. I believe that it works thusly. If you aren't channeling then you can hide your potential to do so. If you channel then all you can hide are the flows and the weaves (the results of said channeling), but the actual touching of Saidar is then detectable.<br /><br />   If the Semirnath (her combined name if Semirhage is also Anath) theory holds true then she would have easily been able to hide her abilities by inverting them. If she channeled then she would be able to mask the weaves and flows not the actual channeling itself. So she may have gone ingocnito during her voyage. <br /><br />   The last time I saw her was when she was either at SG or torturing that poor warder. I think that she is Tuons Soeifa<br />and is using the seanchan through the empress. If the empress is a DF or just being compulsed into obeying is something that can't be known til we know more about her/Anath/or Tuon. Getting a glimspe into one of their pasts might be a bit more educational in the next book.<br /><br />   Speaking of that, in book 10 there will not be any Forsaken dying. I have a valid reason for this beliefe, do you any of you know what I'm referring to? Well if you do not then look thru the quick run of events book by book and you will see a pattern emerge into your sight that has always been there. Concentrate and cycles, number and events and you should get it rather quickly. First to get the answer will get a prize to be determined by me.<br /><br />   Anyhow instead of going into detail her I ended up submitting a theory of my own. I hope it gets posted so that Kevin Hornbrook sees what I have to say about his brillian deductions and the thoughts they spawned inside of me.<br /><br />   Anyhow here's the icecream enjoy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-18 10:34:11
subject: <b>Mmmm...ice cream</b>
body:
Thanks for being such an upstanding guy.  And by the way, ability <i> can </i> be masked while channeling.  When Alviarin is with Mesaana, she does not notice any strength in the power.  She still does not notice when Mesaana teaches her traveling.  So channeling ability can be hidden whether or not you are channeling, and weaves can be inverted at any point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-18 16:07:15
subject: <b>19</b>
body:
I especially like this point, as it does seem unusual.  Regarding the traveling on a moving boat - who said that it couldn't be done?  I think it was either an Aes Sedai or a Sea Folk Windfinder who said so.  The Forsaken might know a better way.  For instance, if the ship isn't moving (unlikely, but wait), Anath/Semirhage could have a damane channel her into the air, giving her a flat surface to work from.  Then A/S could erase her memory via Compulsion.  Getting back would be harder, but not impossible, especially with Skimming.


created: 2001-06-20 09:17:12
subject: <b>the Guide</b>
body:
Quotes - perfectly proportioned form in black (tick)<br />appear forbidding, or motherly and gentle<br />hated everyone who called themselves Aes Sedai (trouble in the future when Tuon revealed as channeler and joins Egwene)<br />Headed network aimed at rooting out traitors (prob means she has infiltrated the Seekers) <br />so yes Anath is Semirhage. That fox medallion is going to be vital: she will try something on Mat or Tuon (when Mat gives her the medallion) and then she will be revealed and HOPEFULLY deaded.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 09:29:01
subject: <b>ships not ships</b>
body:
If Semi goes to he 'charge' immed. on getting free (with time off for retreats etc that let her kidnap the Aes Sedai and so on) she would be there in time for the death of previous person.<br /> Now, (1) it is said that person fell down the stairs - no suggestion she was on a ship. <br />(2) the Empress herself appointed Anath - a bit difficult if they on a ship, since Anath would not be able to Travel there (Seanchan do not know how to Travel even now) A possible answer to this is they are on ship and she arrive on a to'raken. But how does Empress know of death if it on ship?<br />So, that ship excuse does not work<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 07:38:12
subject: <b>a good one</b>
body:
I was almost convinced that Chesa was Semirhage until I read your theory, and was ready to laugh out loud at anyone suggesting she was with the Seanchan. Now, I am at the very least more uncertain. Good work<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 13:00:41
subject: <b>Ships..</b>
body:
The ship argument isn't that she wouldn't be able to have been given the position or kill the old one, it's that she wouldn't be able to travel back and forth freely when on the ship, she'd have to stay there all the time.<br /><br />Even if the boat was still, the environment around it (ie an ocean) isn't going to be, it'd constantly change. Even if that platform in the air idea could work, I'd like to see how you could travel from the mainland onto the ship when Semirhage couldn't even be sure where it was, it could have moved off course or found favourable winds for all she knows.


created: 2001-08-22 18:58:35
subject: <b>Possible Explanations</b>
body:
This is an idea I had that could help support the Anath/Semi thing.  The main question seems to be &quot;How could she get on or off the boat&quot; for meetings and whatnot.  First of all, it's a bit fuzzy to me, but she may not have gotten off the boat AT ALL.  Timing could be just right that she never HAD to get off the boat.  But, even if that is proven wrong, there are still a couple of ways for her to do it.  Skimming to and from dry stationary land, then traveling. Also, i don't recall how much (or lack of) skill Semi had in T'A'R.  But couldn't she gate to the boat from there easier than Traveling back to the ship?<br /><br />Thanx for listening,<br />Spear Dancer<br />


created: 2001-09-08 16:02:45
subject: <b>Lord Savaunt's Pattern</b>
body:
Well, the pattern, simply put, is that no Forsaken get killed in any even numbered books. At least, that is what I think it is. Here is the proof in more detail.<br /><br />Eye of the World<br />   Aginor killed by Rand.<br />   Balthamel killed by the Green Man.<br />(I may have that backwards, i really didn't check it)<br /><br />Great Hunt<br />   None...Rand kills High Lord Turak and only injures IshyBa'alzamon.<br /><br />Dragon Reborn<br />   Be'lal killed by Moiraine.<br />   Ishameal killed by Rand.<br /><br />The Shadow Rising<br />   None...Rand becomes Caracarn and gets Asmodean ala Lanfear.<br /><br />Fires of Heaven<br />   Lanfear seemingly killed(but later, I guess, killed by the finns) by Moiraine.<br />   Rahvin killed by Rand.<br />   Asmodean killed by ????(personally, I think it was Greandal)<br /><br />Lord of Chaos<br />   None...the daring rescue from dirty kidnappers.<br /><br />A Crown of Swords<br />   Sammeal killed by Mashadar.<br /><br />The Path of Daggers<br />   None...everyone is dealing with the Seanchan.<br /><br />Winter's Heart<br />   Osangar(Aginor) killed by Elza.<br /><br />Therefore, Book 10. None...read my book 10 predictions. I guess I'll have to update them now since I predicted some Forsaken going down.<br /><br />Did I get it right? What prize do I get? Ice cream sounds good. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Amp Ashaman<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Software Analyst <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's clean...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;You are taking your first step into a larger world.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-17 13:57:55
subject: <b>the pattern and High Lady Suroth</b>
body:
good work, Amp Ashaman!  iwas about to type in the pattern, but ya beat me to it!  by the way, can someone please tell me how we are supposed to know that the High Lady Suroth is a darkfriend?  is she a darkfriend ONLY if the Semiranth theory is true?  or do we have some other proof?  i can't seem to remember anything except for the male adam, of course!


created: 2001-11-15 04:11:39
subject: <b>Suroth's Darkfriend-ness</b>
body:
In The Great Hunt she meets with Liandrin after having brought the girls to her at Falme. They mention having the same master a number of times. Well, we know who Liandrin's master is so ...<br /><br />I've got a vague recollection of mentions later on in the series, but I'm only up to Dragon Reborn on my current re-read so I can't remember them.<br /><br />Jude


created: 2002-01-06 01:56:06
subject: <b>The pattern...</b>
body:
But that pattern can't be right. Jordan says that he thinks that he might be able to finish it in three more books. That would mean that Book Twelve would be the last book, and TG will likely be in Book Twelve. If that pattern was right, it would mean that none of the forsaken will die at TG, which I doubt. Book Eleven would also be the only odd book left in the series, so either some of the forsaken would have to survive past the Last Battle, or all of them will be killed in Book Eleven, which wouldn't be that great.<br /><br />I agree with the main theory, it's incredible. I never thought of it before, but now I wonder why I didn't.


created: 2002-02-13 16:42:38
subject: <b>Gonna knock of all the Forsaken in Book 13</b>
body:
If we're aiming for 13 books here, then the remaining Forsaken (those who make it through Book 11) will get the stew knocked out of them in Armageddon. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> (Please tell me you've all seen that connection!)   Plus I think 15 books would just be too many. So Tarmon Geddeon must happen in book 13 for the Chosen to die. <br /><br />  Of course, you must realize that Demandred won't die. We won't even know who he is until the very end of Book 13.  Some of the last remaining Dark Friends will receive orders from Demandred to lay low for a while so they aren't all killed. Something like this:<br /><br />&quot;The Aes Sedai are weak from battle. Shall we kill them, my lord?&quot;<br />Demandred spun about on his heels to face Mazrim Taim.<br />&quot;No you fool. We must not attack know, there are too many on them. We shall bide our time and strike when they think they are safe.&quot;<br />Taim bowed to the Nae'blis.<br />&quot;Yes, my Lord Dragon.&quot;<br /><br />MUAHAHAHHA! IT'S RAND!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 10:07:14
subject: <b>Why Semirhage CAN Travel on a boat....</b>
body:
Ummm,  I was kind of surprised that I haven't seen this posted on here, but I may have missed it so kick me if it's already posted.<br /><br />All Semirhage really has to do to travel on a boat is get a private room (large one would work best). All she would then have to do is make her weaves inverted so that no one can sense them and cast it in the air and jump right on through. Seems to make sense, sure it would be hard with the swaying of the boat but thats why the ummm (can't think of word for Travelling opening so will refer to as opening) opening is in the air, so it won't slice through the floor. And who says that the Seanchan haven't done something to remove the swaying of the boat for some quesy upper-class people goin along for the ride? In that case it would be very simple to avoid the problem of swaying and having the opening slice through the ship! How terribly exciting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />And please, kick me if I am sayin something that was already said, most of this blackboard seemed to be arguing between two people and talks of ice cream so I skimmed over a lot of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&#8220;Reality is nothing, perception is everything.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;Sometimes that's all life is, one desperate act after another.&#8221;


created: 2002-04-24 13:30:04
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
i just was wondering if anyone else found it odd that  she is blaker than black yet no one finds this odd in the whiter than white world of rand land  and yes i know she has not gotten there yet but would that not have bee refeldcted in the vision rand had of the age of legends.  i cannot read what i am typeing for some reason the computer is not transmitting  while i type so i apologize for the lack of clarity<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 22:42:37
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Great theory! Well thought out and clear. Two thumbs up!<br /><br />As for the whole boat/traveling thing, I have no clue. But she IS one of the Forsaken, there's no telling what all she can do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~Brandi Sedai~*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;A Cairhienin AND an Aes Sedai? There could be no worse combination.&quot; - Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 09:47:24
subject: <b>Another clue</b>
body:
<br />The prophecy at the end of LoC says: &quot;The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and the storm clouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down, what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.&quot; <br /><br /><br />In case you missed it: <br /><br />&quot;Beyond the horizon... serpents nestle in the bosom&quot;. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 19:49:41
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I completely agree with this theory, and I'd like to add that Demandred made a comment, sometime in Winter's Heart i think, about it being difficult for Semirhage to attend the meetings between the &quot;Chosen&quot;. It would obviously be hard for her to get to the meetings if she was on a boat sailing across the ocean, which is where Anath was.


created: 2003-05-21 07:41:26
subject: <b>Re: Darkeye and skin color in WOT</b>
body:
WOT populations are as far from homogenous in skin color as one can imagine.<br /><br />Don't forget the copper-skinned Arad Domani, dark skinned Tariens, pale Cairhienin, and sun-darkened Aiel.  Not to mention hints at very dark Sharans and the fact that Seanchan is composed of a lot of cultures, all ruled under a single empire.  Apparently, skin colors are equally diverse over in Seanchan and Semirhage doesn't stand out for that reason.


created: 2003-05-21 07:44:16
subject: <b>skin color continued...</b>
body:
...oh yeah, and I forgot to include the most important point:<br /><br />Tuon herself has very dark skin.


created: 2003-06-03 21:28:03
subject: <b>Just wondering...</b>
body:
Can anyone check if Anath does a lot of weaving?  I mean general knitting type weaving not the other OP type weaving.  I don't have the book with me, but if someone can confirm that Anath does weave, then I'll believe for sure that Anath is Semirhage.  Not that weaving is the only sign that Anath is Semirhage (in that case Elaida, Cadsuane, and Min would be Semirhage too) but it would certainly buttress the arguments even further.  Note that Mesaana made it a point to notice Semirhage enjoying the pasttime of weaving.  On another note, Mesaana was also noted to enjoy the knowledge of construction when she was stacking up some dominoes.  It's not good enough proof, but this can say something about Danelle who was in charge of the library construction...though of course simply being brown could give her that charge too...but at least with Semirhage and Anath, then the assumption along with all these coherent similarities would certainly be doing more than suggest...


created: 2003-08-22 07:50:56
subject: <b>Weaving...</b>
body:
Well, Anath isn't described as much of a weaver, but Seleucia (or whatever eher name is) always embroiders. I originally thought Sele was Semirhage, but I am convinced that it's Anath, since she fits with more points than just the embrodery. Anath could be the perfect decoy, tough... some Seanchan DF ordered by Sele. The problem (or should I say slayer) of this thing, is that Sele's been in training for some 25 years...<br /><br />One note on the 'Gateways at Sea': The problem here is not weaving the GW and keeping it still before it cuts the ship and Traveller to shreds, but Travelling back into the ship! How in the innermost circles of Hell would Semirhage know where the ship had sailed?<br />No, the reason Semirhage didn't show up at the Forsaken meeting in ACOS or TPOD, was that she was on a little voyage...<br /><br />Some of this might already have been mentioned; lots of the above seemed to be off-topic, so I just scanned most of the stuff quickly...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Shadow at Noon<br /><br />Economic liberalism and social darwinism has unnervingly much in common...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-02 05:20:43
subject: <b>Gateways on a moving ship</b>
body:
Remember when Rand walks in on Aviendha naked and she runs through a gateway?  Rand forces it to stay open and goes after her.  When they get back, Asmodean is there and says he's amazed that Rand was able to hold a gateway open like that.  He wasn't sure anyone was capable of doing that, but mentions Semirhage as one that may be able to do so...<br /><br />Could Semirhage leave a gateway open, anchored to one place in the cabin? That would allow her to leave the ship to attend meetings and return.


created: 2003-09-03 05:42:31
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
Dreamwalkers point requires it to be able to make a MOVING GATEWAY, since a ship at sea NEVER is completely still.<br /><br />And we haven't heard of such a thing yet, have we?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Shadow at Noon<br /><br />Economic liberalism and social darwinism has unnervingly much in common...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-02 21:35:29
subject: <b>Gateway at Sea</b>
body:
Here's a possible suggestion to the Semirhage/Anath traveling problem: <br /><br />Traveling, you have to know where your traveling from, right? And Skimming you have to know where your traveling to. <br /><br />Perhaps she skims to SG (Anyone that doesn't think the Forsaken know SG well enough to skim to it??), and then Travels back to the boat? <br /><br />Of course, this is assuming that the room in the boat counts as a place, and not it's lat./long. coordinants? <br /><br />


created: 2001-06-12 04:56:12
subject: <b>Demandred? Are you mad!</b>
body:
I know you said POSSIBLY but its impossible! Even Demandred's own PoV proves it. Personally I go along with the idea that he is involved with Masema. Greandal says that events to the south have Demandred stamped all over them. She is in Arad Doman therefore Ghealdan and Amadicia are south of her. Dragonsworn would be his style since he hates Rand with passion. What better way to bring Rand down than putting his 'followers' in a bad light and making people hate the Dragonsworn.<br /><br />Also Im not to sure about Osangar being dead, possibly a seperate theory would be needed here.<br /><br />But I agree with Mesaana being Danelle. <br />Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 05:52:39
subject: <b>Demandred?</b>
body:
The previous blackboard post leads perfectly where I was going.  I think Demandred might be a Questioner, maybe even Rhadam Asunawa.  Just a thought.  Nicely written theory on Mesaana.


created: 2001-06-12 07:53:47
subject: <b>Not sure about Osangar being dead?</b>
body:
In the end of Winter's Heart we see from Osangar's PoV that he is Dashiva, and is about to balefire Rand.  Then we switch to Elza's point of view, the Black Ajah, and she sees Dashiva and fries him.  He's dead.  How could he not be dead?  She turned the entire hill into a barbecue!  He's toast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 08:37:14
subject: <b>Osangar</b>
body:
As I say thats for another theory. All I'm saying is that its not certain.<br /><br />It doesn't say that Elza actually killed him all it says is that the Great Lord wouldn't mind if she killed an Ashaman.<br />What with Aginor being the third strongest Forsaken, the creator of the Shadowspawn and with that Gholam running about Id say he still has plenty of potential. It would be a shame to kill him off again.<br /><br />If you still insist that it is certain then you might as well say that Moggy and possibly Lanfear are dead too. They have the same amount of confirmation. Moggy was hanging on the brink of death and we know that Lanfear was facing a stronger opponent that was probably more proficient in attack weaves than her. Dont forget that Alivia DID survive<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 09:21:54
subject: <b>Sammael's dead?</b>
body:
This is too much!!! Quote: &quot;He just couldn't have survived&quot;.<br /><br />Meaning: he did survive.<br /><br />The end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 09:57:51
subject: <b>Osan'gar dead Sammeal dead</b>
body:
1) Sammeal is dead because Robert Jordan said so.<br />2) Osan'gar is dead because Cadsuane says so, I don't have the books here but as far as I know she said something like: .. 2 dead was a too high loss for a dead renegade and a few bruises on the forsaken...<br />So he is dead, there is no possibility he could live.<br /><br />Another interesting character is Demandred, I said this in the MB before and now again, Demandred is supposed to be at the Whitecloaks since he works together with S&amp;M. These 2 are in Seanchan and White Tower and infiltrate these Organisation. The only other Organisation like that ( a force independent of national Interests) are the Whitecloaks.<br />(And RebelSedai and BlackTower but these are founded after the freeing of the forsaken, thus the &quot;unkilled&quot; forsaken should be in an older Organisation,that's why Aran/Osan'gar are in Black Tower/Rebel Sedai).<br />The only prominent Characters of the Whitecloaks are Eamon and Asunawa and we have a POV from Eamon which proves he's not Demandred. So the only Person left is Asunawa and remember how he initiated the murder of Niall another hint he could be Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 10:54:58
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
I'm not going to be foolish enough to go into a full fledged theory of who Demandred has been portraying.<br /><br />I will however bring up a few points.<br /><br />One:<br />I agree that Demandred must be in one of two areas, the Whitecloaks, or the Dragonsworn.  Why?  I can't remember most of the reasons, but the quote from one of the other forsaken about the &quot;troubles to the south&quot; is one of the strongest.<br /><br />Two:<br />This might support the idea he's in the Whitecloaks camp (or was).  Didn't Asunawa take advantage of Morgase while she was under Whitecloak &quot;protection&quot;.  Although this doesn't really prove anything, I pose a question.  Can anyone remember from the guide if taking advantage of a queen simply because you could is something that fits Demandreds personality.<br /><br />Three:<br />This kinda goes against the idea of him being in Amadicia with the Whitecloaks.  Would he be likely to allow the Seanchan to take over the &quot;group&quot; (being the Whitecloaks) that he had infiltrated.  It seems to me that his pride alone would have made him keep this from happening.  Additionally, it seems as if this were true, it's two people on the same side bumping heads.  Semirhage's group (Seanchan) taking over Demandred's (Whitecloaks).  Seems a wasted effort by a group of people (Choosen) who shouldn't overlook something like.  This in turn leads me to think maybe Demandred is with the Dragonsworn.<br /><br />Four:<br />As for Demandred being with the Dragonsworn.  We haven't really been given much about them, especially in regards to a character that stands out that could possibly be Demandred.  But then again, and I dont care what RJ says, we really haven't been given much about Demandred at all.  If we had, there would be no Taimandred debate.  But, as we haven't been given much about Demandred, we also haven't been given much about the Dragonsworn, maybe the two having this in common points to Demandred. <br /><br />I'm basically still undecided.  Anyone have the books handy to say yay or nay as to information pointing to Demandred and Dragonsworn?


created: 2001-06-12 11:01:47
subject: <b>velleh...</b>
body:
I think mesaana is one of those who are hunting the Black Ajah, one of those who swore on the Oath Rode. If I remember correctly, everybody swore they were not _darkfriends_ except for one of the sisters, who swore she was not _Black Ajah_ which Mesaana is not. And, of course, she did take the Rod and removed the Oath on her that made her unable to lie right after..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 13:48:30
subject: <b>Nothing Important</b>
body:
This has no relevance to any of the theories, I just thought it was nice to see that there were people out there who were still fans of the Asterix and Obelix books.  Three cheers for Vercingetorix!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-12 15:28:53
subject: <b>Asterix</b>
body:
Continuing on the Asterix theme, did anyone else think that the new one just isn't up it the standard of the others?


created: 2001-06-12 17:35:43
subject: <b>Asterix</b>
body:
Unfortunately I haven't seen a new book in quite a while.  I do have a question though, does anyone know anything about the live-action movie that was supposedly in the works?  I thought it was already supposed to be out, but have heard nothing.  Info would be great


created: 2001-06-12 19:16:15
subject: <b>Don't know</b>
body:
I don't know about the movie, but a new book came out very recently - Asterix and the Actress (at least it is supposed to be brand new, and I've never seen it before)


created: 2001-06-12 22:09:09
subject: <b>Where did RJ say Sammael was dead?</b>
body:
Evidence in the books suggests otherwise...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 03:18:19
subject: <b>Off the topic</b>
body:
We have strayed somewhat from the original topic.   But as they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.....<br /><br />I believe the most likely candidate for Dem is Asunawa.  He is initiating chaos by removing Niall.  Having the Seanchan take over &quot;his group&quot; also helps spread chaos.  Besides, what would he care if the white cloaks got wiped out?  Why would he risk himself to try and protect the group he infiltrated?  There is no reason for him to.  The minute they are under attack, he gates himself away.  End of story.<br /><br /><br />Oh, getting back to the topic, I agree, Mesaana probably is Danelle.<br />


created: 2001-06-13 12:03:59
subject: <b>Wow thanks</b>
body:
I got three cheers.  Cool.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I always liked Panoramix<br /><br />Oh and your.master, RJ said so in the december 12th chat at cnn last year.  The transcript is around here somewhere, but he DID say it.  Mashadar ate him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 18:07:24
subject: <b>I posted the Demandred thread on the MB</b>
body:
The thing about him watching Rand is simple. He Travels, and he DOES have Taim as a spy...but post on the thread please!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 19:25:12
subject: <b>Danelle</b>
body:
Do we really know how old Danelle is??? If so, that could help us a lot.<br /><br />Also, is there any evidence that anyone knew her when she was, say, a novice or Accepted???  Because, if I recall, the Forsaken, with the exception of Ishamael, have only been awake for a couple of years.  But, you know, it would be easy for her just to 'take over' her body and get rid of the spirit.  Or, destroy the body and disguise herself as the dreamy Brown....Thinking.....Thinking.....Thinking....<br /><br />Too many theories....Not enough brain power<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 22:03:53
subject: <b>Aginor</b>
body:
Just like to point out to Moridin_2000 that I think it says somewhere that Aginor was actually fairly wimpy, and only made it into the Forsaken because he made the Trollocs etc.  The heck he's stronger than Rahvin or Sammael (I'm kinda assuming Ishamael's the biggest and baddest, with Demandred second).  Heck, Asmodean was at one point strong enough to balance perfectly with Rand!  Sure, Rand was younger then, but even still, Asmo's no weakling . . . <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Creator of Stupid Little Titles at the End of Posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 07:41:38
subject: <b>Actually, Aginor is very powerful</b>
body:
It is said that Ishamael was the strongest, and Lanfear was second strongest, with Aginor being the second strongest male, and Demandred right behind him.  Yurp.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 12:39:05
subject: <b>Aginor</b>
body:
Is second strongest in power but he's not very good at scheming and plotting among the Forsaken. And he certainly is not a soldier or a good general like many of the other male forsaken. An Additional point is that Dashiva was a very arkward Asha'man and doesn't seem to like fighting. (I don't think that is part of his disguise).<br />Thus I believe he behaved very clumpsy in the battle and. was killed.<br />Well not much about the theory but my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 12:41:17
subject: <b>A Few Random Points</b>
body:
1) The only candidates we have for Mesaana's ID are the Aes Sedai who she's not Black Ajah on the Oath Rod and Danelle. Danelle makes a whole bunch of sense but that inconsistency is definitly going to come up some time, and RJ likes having Darkfriends everywhere. <br /><br />2) I think it's more likely that Demandred is working with the Whitecloaks than Dragonsworn. While the Dragonsworn doubtlessly has darkfriends in it, I think the Whitecloaks are just too important for RJ to not have badguys present. While I'd PREFER that Whitecloak troubles are because of intelligent, ambitious and dangerous men, that seems pretty unlikely. On the other hand, the Dragonsworn did create plenty of chaos (part of DO's order to Demandred) so it makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, we have no minion of Masema's to ID as a Forsaken.<br /><br />Oh, and it was Valda, not Rhadam, who broke Morgase's spirit by getting her to put out. Rhadam merely tortured, which, though painful, was not nearly as disturbing to Morgase as letting Valda make love to her. And we've had PoV from both. Rhadam's last appearance his big motivation to be &quot;Hanging the First Queen as a Darkfriend&quot;. While Valda and Rhadam would be ideal places for a Forsaken or Darkfriend, I suspect neither is. <br /><br />3)


created: 2001-06-15 16:07:32
subject: <b>Strength in the Power</b>
body:
We know that the Forsaken can hide the fact that they can channel if they wish to, but what makes everyone think that they can pretend to have a certain amount of ability with the Power? This is pretty much totally different from completely hiding the fact, and Mesaana would need to have this ability to be able to pose as Danelle. I'm almost completely certain that there's no reference to the Forsaken having this ability in the books, but if someone feels the need to correct me..........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-wink-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 20:09:37
subject: <b>Cripes!</b>
body:
Talking about running off on a tangent!  I thought this was gonna be a hot topic about Mesaana and Danelle, and here it's mostly about Taimandred.<br /><br />Geez, but anyway, I think someone said something about whyt would Rj say he's dead if there is so much evidence otherwise.  Well, if RJ said he's toast, then I'm gonna go with what the author said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 00:13:33
subject: <b>Mesaana and Asmodean</b>
body:
I don't know that Mesaana's Aes Sedai at all. She doesn't have to be. It would be just as easy for her to impersonate a servant or a Novice, maybe even a lonely Accepted (since Accepted have less chores, in general). Being an Aes Sedai gives her more freedom, but it would also be much harder. She controls the Tower anyway, through Alviarin; why would she need to be Danelle (or anyone else in Elaida's little circle) to have her way?<br /><br />And about Asmodean-- I'm glad *someone* finally realized he's not a weakling! I just remember posts on the MB about a year ago, maybe still cropping up, that listed Asmodean as second-weakest, with only Mog below him... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Speaking of (just a random thought), isn't it about time someone started wondering where/how Rand learned to channel? *That* could cause some trouble for him...


created: 2001-06-17 00:34:23
subject: <b>Problems</b>
body:
Well, I have a few things to say about this.<br />1)I sent in this theory oh, a couple of months ago. I thought it had been rejected. A few days ago I posted the same theory with much better evidence on the MB. I was going to submit it...but my old one shows up! Trust me, the new one was a lot more conclusive.<br />2)RJ SAID at Marcon that we have met all the Forsaken, so we have met Mesaana's alias.<br />3)I thought at that time Demandred was probably Taim. I have changed my mind - I am sitting on the fence now.<br />4)In response to the Editor's Note, Graendal is hiding out as an ailing Domani noble called Lady Basene. It says so in black-and-white in either LOC or TFOH. Check for yourself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 20:52:42
subject: <b>RJ said....</b>
body:
that the forsaken could hide how much power they had.  It was in a chat transcript, I just don't remember which one.  But he did say it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 17:24:23
subject: <b>Hiding your power</b>
body:
Didn't Moggy know how to disquise her power???  How else could she be right next to Egwene and Nynaeve that they not know that she could channel???  Didn't she teach them, or something??? I know she taught them a lot of stuff.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ask me about the Bardic Tavern. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 23:43:24
subject: <b>I'd just like to point out</b>
body:
I'd just like to point out that due to the many flws of the 3 oaths, Messana could have sworn to tell the truth, and then sworn that she was not forsaken because in her mind she wasn't....she's one of the Chosen.<br />sincerely,<br />the devil<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 15:11:41
subject: <b>Hey metallica man</b>
body:
Ummm, they never swore they were forsaken.  They swore they were not of the black ajah.  Big difference.  But the forsaken do NOT know that the three oaths can be removed(this is assuming that the oath rod is a binder, which is generally accepted by most people).  We see from Semirhage's point of view that she had two choices, severing or being binded from knowing her pleasures ever again, and she found a way to show them all, blah blah blah.  So clearly the forsaken believe that binding is permanent.  Knowing this, I cannot see Mesaana agreeing to let herself be bound anyway.  But it doesn't amtter about the forsaken comment because they swore they weren't black ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 18:46:38
subject: <b>I agree with you (Ruriha Sedai) about the Mesaana=Danelle thing</b>
body:
But I think your evidence here is a little circumstantial. In this theory, D has nothing actively against M, but neither does she have anything actively for her being M. Until either of these comes along, she's our best guess, but I think we can hardly say that it's rock-solid evidence. I believe D=M because I didn't like the sound of her, but that's different.<br />PS<br />Sammael and Osangar are both alive- they have been reincarnated as a piece of bread, lightly toasted. Their contribution to the Forces of the Dark is to malevolently burn themselves and to fall on the side that is buttered.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Tuibird in Aotearoa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 19:55:25
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
You all seem to think the whitecloaks are destroyd! They're not, Asunuwa and Valda took off with 10 000 whitecloaks to the Ghealdian border to halt the prophets advance just before the Seancheans invaded. After that they joined forces with the Kings forces and had a little battle with the seanchean with the end result of king and nobles made property, kings forces dead or property and whitecloaks retreated. Now they will probebly play some role in Perrin's quest. And I think young Dain Bornhald is with that group of whitecloaks... hehe, should be interresting.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-24 11:42:33
subject: <b>Hang on....</b>
body:
This thing about the binding and the Forsaken not knowing the Oaths taken on the WT's rod can be reversed.  I was under the impression that something called a &quot;binding chair&quot; was used in the AoL.  It sounds fairly irreversible to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="pink">Elaine</font><br /><font color="darkgreen">Irish Honey</font><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 14:26:47
subject: <b>another reason</b>
body:
In either a crown of swords or a path of daggers it mentions that danelle has a flower pattern on the hem of her dress. In the next white tower scene alvarian is recieving orders from messana. Messana has disguised her appearance with the one power but the book says that alvarian can see the bottom of messana's dress which has flowers on it.


created: 2001-08-09 21:17:27
subject: <b>not flowers....scrollwork</b>
body:
Actually, in book eight, pg. 497-498,Mesaana's dress is described as &quot;bronze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork&quot; showing through.  I don't know where Danelle's clothes are described; but if Mesaana is Danelle, I think it's kind of a ripoff, since RJ has only written 2 or 3 sentences about her so far.  I think that it would be far more interesting if one of the characters we've come to know very well turns out to be Mesaana......Cadsuane, Verin, Nynaeve.....ha ha!


created: 2001-08-12 11:19:42
subject: <b>I still don't understand...</b>
body:
...the Aginor strength thing. Moiraine was the first to say that he was one of the strongest of the Forsaken, close to Ishmael and Lanfear. However, we know that many things Aes Sedai take for granted such as men and women being equal in the power and that Lanfear might have been as striong as Ishamael simply aren't true. So that evidence can be dismissed. But Rand has just defeated Aginor in battle. You could say this is because Aginor was no good at fighting, but apparently he once matched LTT stroke for stroke in the Hall of Servants. Then later on we see Asmodeon equaling Rand. Now we know that male channelers leap up in their ability and after all this time surely Rand has had an increase after fighting Aginor, so that suggests that Asmodeon is stronger than Aginor. If so why can Lanfear threaten Asmodeon so openly when Sammael and Rahvin who are both apparently weaker than Aginor feel confident they would overwhelm her? Then later we see most of the Chosen collected together and Osan'gar is backing down from one of the others and Demandred observes that Aginor always knew who he dared go up against. Once again you could say that he simply does not know how to fight as well as the others, but LTT knew how to and Aginor met him stroke for stroke. Demandred also thinks that Aginor would never have been Chosen if it wasn't for his abilities as in creatign Trollocs. That suggests that he isn't so strong in the power, because surely he would be Chosen with that sort of strength whether he could make Trollocs etc or not. So how powerful is Aginor? We have evidence suggesting he is very strong and also that he is below many of the others.


created: 2001-09-12 14:55:01
subject: <b>Damandred</b>
body:
Sorry to be off otpic, but I guess that's the way this has been going. I think it's impossible for Valda or Asunawa to be damandred, since both have had bits from their point of view and neither was consistant with anything a forsaken would ever think. Just a thought.


created: 2001-10-05 21:41:12
subject: <b>Events to the south</b>
body:
in response to Moridin's first post on the blackboard, She said the events to the south have his fingerprints all over them, but that doesn't mean HE has to be in the south.  After all Sammael had his hand in the north and he was ruling Illian.<br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-07 13:45:09
subject: <b>warders...</b>
body:
ok, sorry if someone already posted this, but I didnt wanna read through thirty nine posts...does Danelle have a warder?  Cause obviously it'd have to be someone without one...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 01:08:53
subject: <b>LOL *just laughing about some stuff don't mind me</b>
body:
Be'lal=very dead Rahvin=even deader<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 22:31:47
subject: <b>aginor again</b>
body:
Aginor is weak because I say so. he sucks. The only forsaken strengths we know are Ishy and Lanfear, who were the two strongest, in that order. Rahvin and Sammael must be overestimating when they say either could take on Lanfear, because RJ clearly says she's second.<br /><br />I have no idea where Be'lal or Balthamel fit in. <br />Asmodean was equal with Rand in tSR. If he were alive, he'd probably be a little weaker cause Rand was still developing then. Moghedian was equal with Nynaeve because it says so in tFoH. And I THINK Nynaeve is a little weaker, but not much, than Rand. So therefore Moghedian about equal with Asmodean, who is much weaker than Lanfear. We know Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, even in her current state. Graendal says so. And Alivia is stronger than Lanfear in original state. That comes from the end of WH. That's scary. The book also says Demandred, Mesaana, and Semirhage are of equal strength. And that Lews Therin was a tinsy bit stronger than Demandred. Therefore LT is up there...perhaps just below Lanfear? He certainly beat Rahvin in a fair fight. What I want to know: How strong is Halima??<br /><br />This is completely off topic, but who cares.<br />


created: 2002-05-20 20:52:16
subject: <b>More On Aginor..</b>
body:
Now, Asmodean wasn't NECESSARILY stronger than Aginor simply because Rand managed to defeat him so early in the series.  Remember that a person doesn't have to be stronger in the Power than another to destroy them--though it would definitely help.  Recall that Moiraine was able to destroy Be'lal--by catching him off guard.  Now.. Aginor was withered, and only just regaining strength after he was released, possibly combined with the fact that Rand was channeling through the Eye.  I don't know if it mentions whether this has an effect similar to channeling through an angreal, but that's not really important.  Aginor most likely wasn't expecting Rand to even know so much as how to channel, and found it even less likely that he'd know any useful attack weaves.  I think the fact that Aginor was withered, though, might hold some significance.<br /><br />Also, it's likely that the only reason he was able to match Rand was that he was channeling through the Choedan Kal.  Or, it could simply be that Rand hadn't achieved much strength in the Power.  Either way;  They were on pretty even footing in this fight, each person knowing the other to be dangerous and fully capable of destroying him.  Neither one was caught by surprise until Rand started channeling through the fat-guy angreal.<br /><br />Other evidence contrary to the argument that Asmodean was stronger is that Rand had gained much strength in the Power by ACoS, and I believe it's near the end of this book that Dashiva (Osan'gar) is described as being equal to or near Rand's present strength.  I'd have to read again.. Anyway.. I guess I'm probably just stating the obvious, but I hadn't seen this pointed out anywhere so I decided to toss in my 2 cents.  Muah-hah..


created: 2002-06-26 14:50:37
subject: <b>Binders, Binding Chairs, and Mesaana</b>
body:
First off, to make this pertinent, I completely agree that Mesaana mostly likely is hiding out as Danelle. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I'm posting to clear up a few things about binders and binding chairs, etc. in the AoL. As I took it, from reading the Guide, the binding chair was used upon non-channelling criminals, while the binding rods were for use upon channellers. <br /><br />And I see no reason for the Forsaken NOT to know that an oath can be removed (assuming, of course, as I do that the oath rod and its sister in the hands of Sevanna are merely binders--but that's another theory for another day) The reason Semirhage would have fled to the dark instead of being bound against her sadistic practices wouldn't be because she didn't know it was possible to remove oaths, but because in her circumstances she wouldn't have the chance. The Hall of Servants or whatever law enforcement agency that handled criminal channellers would have precautions to prevent a bound AS (or anyone else, for that matter) from getting their hands on the binders. And while Semirhage certainly wouldn't shirk at violence or other nasty things to get ahold of the binder once the oath had been put upon her, it is much more prudent to just avoid it in the first place. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So, there's my spiel. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Anaelle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-06-29 17:54:20
subject: <b>MORE PROOF!</b>
body:
alviarin (sp) said that messana ordered her to tell her EVERYTHING that elaida had said during their meetings and that when alviarin had left something out messana had known about it. messana would need to have another spy in wiht elaida to know what was said without alviarin since she isnt simply compelling elaida (if she was she wpouldnt need alviarin). IF SHE WAS DANELLE THEN SHE WOULD KNOW HERSELF WHAT WAS SAID AND COULD THEN COMPARE IT AGAINST HER MEMORY! that way shwe could tests alviarin's loyalty! and since danelle is in elaida's circle...u do the math<br />


created: 2002-08-22 14:57:49
subject: <b>Dang</b>
body:
Dang! I was gonna post a theory on this, but you got to it first!  good job though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When you start to hear voices in your head telling you to proclaim yourself as the Dragon Reborn, you know you have been on this site for WAY too long</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-28 10:47:24
subject: <b>Demandred being a Whitecloak (glimmers spoilers)</b>
body:
Asunawa seems a great possiblity for Demandred, except for one problem:  <br />In WH, &quot;Wonderful news&quot; in the chat with the F, Aran'gar states: &quot;You were responsible for watching him Osan'gar, you and Demandred.&quot;<br /><br />Do you really think that Demandred of all people would go against the DO so much to be that far away from him?  If Osan'gar could get that close to him as Dashiva, I see Demandred as being even that much more subtle.  He has got to be close to Rand.  I haven't done much digging, but what about Weiramon or Dobraine? Dobraine was strangely wounded in Glimmers, though Samitsu could probably tell from a delving whether he could channel, even if he had a way to disguise it in general.<br /><br />Though just now in rereading the section of Glimmers that deals Asunawa, there did seem to be some clues that would suggest he could be F. He is the only one who has a roof and fire, while all the other WC have to make do with tents and no fire.  He was also reading a book more &quot;suited to new recruits&quot;.  Someone who is not really a WC would need to do that.  Can anyone say where else Asunawa has made appearances?<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-30 15:15:43
subject: <b>Aginor's strenght</b>
body:
Hate to break up the intresting calculations on the forsaken's strenght but the direct quote from the World of the wheel of time is &quot;The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor,came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishmael in strenght.&quot;<br /><br />So there you go, nice theory I had no idea who Mesenna was and it was driving me nuts


created: 2003-01-15 04:21:55
subject: <b>Danelle? Probably and here's why...</b>
body:
Please read my recent MB post (from 01/15/03), it explains my suspicions in more detail, and in reading this theory I have to agree, Danelle is the most likely suspect.<br /><br />Basically, that post states that when Elaida deposed Siuan Sanche (tSR, Chap. 47), Siuan was shielded before she even saw a woman embrace <i>saidar</i>. This means she was shielded by a woman who can use the True Power, or that a woman present can hide her channeling ability, and that means a Forsaken, probably Mesaana. For Mesaana suspects, the women mentioned as present were: Elaida (no), Alviarin (no), Joline, Shemerin, and Danelle. htomren pointed out to me that Joline and Shemerin have both left the Tower since then. That leaves Danelle.<br /><br />Now that I've read there is other evidence for Danelle, it makes me CERTAIN (or at least as certain as I am that Semirhage is Anath). Good thing I read that chapter twice today (after losing my place), or I would have missed it.<br /><br />Elder Haman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-15 02:44:46
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
I personally am of the opinion that Demandred is like Moghedien, not posing as anyone really.  He likes using proxies.  Obviously Taim is one (his knowledge of the Power, his order to kill Rand, so-called Aiel reference, etc) and I think Asunawa is another.  I think Demandred is using Compulsion on Asunawa.  That explains why he is reading the book for new recruits; somewhere it said someone with a strong mind that is a victim of Compulsion tries to go back to the basics of somesuch.  Also, it explains the small in the prologue of CoT; the small is from the Blight when Demandred makes his gateway to leave.


created: 2003-05-01 22:47:51
subject: <b>in light of CoT</b>
body:
Well, I was fairly convinced that Mesaana was Danelle, but why didn't Alviarin recognize her in CoT (before SH appeared)?  I think I read a theory somewhere, or a response to a theory, that Mesaana was shocked by the sudden lurching shadows, and so appeared as herself, rather than as her normal disguise (which is why Alviarin didn't recognize, but instead felt she was only tantalizingly familiar).  My problem with this explanation is that the shadows lurched and there was a PAUSE before SH arrived, time enough for Mesaana to start threatening Alviarin (or was she debating killing off Elaida? can't remember).  Anyway, you don't get to be Forsaken if you let small things lower your guard.  She didn't yet know it was SH, so why would she suddenly freak out and drop her disguise?  In my opinion, this actually lends some credence to the idea that she COULD be Laras (for want of another idea), because likely high and mighty Alviarin doesn't spend much time in the kitchens.<br /><br />But, I could indeed be proven wrong by book #17.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-06 11:14:35
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I am reading ACoS prologue and after Alviarin sees Danelle I think, 'she's Mesaana'!  So I come here and you already had this theory.<br /><br />One thing in support:  How would Mesaana know that Alviarin was just entering her room unless she saw her?  We were only told the name of a few people that saw her leaving Elaida's apartments, Danelle, Berisha, Kera, and Norine.  So Danelle saw here, knew she just came from meeting Elaida and booked it out of there to talk to Alviarin as Mesaana!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For movie reviews and eternal life, check out http://www.richmondreviewers.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-12 00:24:05
subject: <b>more evidence for danelle</b>
body:
In TSR's &quot;the truth of a viewing&quot; Siuan is reviewing random paperwork and one of them mentioned was something about Danelle watching Master Jovarin, the mason, and letting herself be distracted by books.  <br /><br />She apparently has &quot;inadvertantly&quot; let too many helpers on the White Tower grounds for construction.  These same &quot;masons&quot; attacked the Tower right after the Elaida Coup.  <br /><br />Danelle was also at the confrontation of Elaida and Siuan. &quot;All wore their shawls, most red-fringed, but cool-faced Alviarin, a White, was at Elaida's side, And Joline Maza, a slender Green, and plump Shemerin of the Yellow came close behind with Danelle, her big blue eyes not dreamy at all.&quot;  A few paragraphs later Danelle &quot;actually smirks.&quot;  <br /><br />I believe that she is also the Aes Sedai/Forsaken/Black Ajah that kills Sahra and the farm owner for information on Min to give to Elaida to use for fuel. Not many of the modern Aes Sedai know compulsion to any large extent.<br /><br />Anyway, I could be way off the mark, but I am re-reading the series (and introducing my husband to the wonderful world of WOT) and as I review the first couple of books everything seems to leap out now that didn't the first 20 times I read them.  Please feel free to criticise, but before you do read this chapter!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;Mother, mother ocean, I have heard you call,<br />Wanted to sail upon your waters since I was three feet tall...Yes, I am a pirate two hundred years too late. The cannons don't thunder there's nothin' to plunder...&quot; <br />   -J. Buffet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-14 21:56:57
subject: <b>alivia is not stronger than cyndane</b>
body:
you must think that when Cyndane confronts Alivia during the cleansing of Saidan, that Alivia is wearing Nyneave's wrist angreal and other ter angreal, so her strength is more than it normally would be!


created: 2007-10-06 22:08:44
subject: <b>Mesaana's true identity</b>
body:
She is Morvrin from the Rebel Aes Sedai camp, I just read a chapter where Morvrin was tapping her chin with her finger like Mesanna. I read something else that insinuates it, but im going to look up more Facts before I post about it, but the chapter with the finger tap is chapter one i think of Knife of Dreams, something about rescuing Egwene that Mesaanna talks about at the Chosen meeting that makes me think the she is Morvrin. I will post as soon as i have the facts!!!


created: 2001-06-12 01:56:19
subject: <b>End of Winter's Heart</b>
body:
If this is true then the shield imprisoning the Dark One<br />should have been destroyed at the end of Winter's Heart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><b> Lupo </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Fantasy-Fantast magnific <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolf at heart <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Original Finn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 13:56:00
subject: <b>.....DYS</b>
body:
y should have it been destroyed?<br />after all LTT put the seals BE4 the DO tainted Saidin...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 20:40:56
subject: <b>One Quote</b>
body:
&quot;She [Mierin] said she had found a new source for the one power&quot;.<br />This implies that the True Power is in no Way connected to the True Source<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 12:25:00
subject: <b>The theory says ...</b>
body:
<i>Since saidin did not have saidar to shield it from rubbing up on the True Power(and vice versa) whenever a male channeler touches the One Power he is also just barely touches the True Power. </i><br /><br />The only way to remove the taint is to destroy the connectionpoint, otherwise when using the One Power you would touch the true power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><b> Lupo </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Fantasy-Fantast magnific <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolf at heart <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Original Finn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 18:36:17
subject: <b>I was refering to</b>
body:
When the True Source was created, it divided into the One Power and the True Power so that it would stay balanced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 18:51:33
subject: <b>Your all Bloody Fools</b>
body:
The True Power has nothing at all to do with the One Power.<br />The One Power is drawn from the Source ( maybe a referance to the Source of all creation ). The True Power is drawn directly from the Dark One. In all probability, there is a similar version, only drawn from the Creator. Thing is, WoT is kind of like the Catholic religion. The Ruler of Evil is an active participant in the lifes of people, while Ruler of Good simly waits in the backround, never having anything to do with anything. He's just there, and since he never really does anything its kind of like hes not really even there. <br /><br /><br />as far as your philosphy goes, i only have a problem with the idea that the Dark One was sealed by the Creator. in one of my other posts, i mentioned that if the Wheel of Time continues to turn, and lives are forgotten and so is the past, then Rand could be the 20th or the 1,000th Dragon Reborn, and Lews Therin the 19th or 999th. When the time comes again for the Dragon to be born, they will remember him as Rand Al'Thor, and that poor sap will have a sheephearder in his head. The seal on the Dark One's prison was made with saidin and saidiar, but by channeler's, not the Creator. Rand &amp; Co. at the Last Battle will use a whole butt-load of saidin and saidar to seal him again, and it will take another Age or more for someone to Bore a hole in it again. <br /><br /><br /><br />Master of the Blinking Colorful Noisey Box Machine<br />Knave


created: 2001-06-15 13:18:59
subject: <b>NOT the Creator?</b>
body:
I have a problem with a theory that builds on a foundation that says the Creator isn't the Creator, just something created by something bigger.<br /><br />The entire concept of a Creator who doesn't take an active part in the flow of events within His Creation is simple. If the Creator chooses when and how things come out, then NOONE else in creation has free will. This is a common question asked as an objection to Christianity; &quot;why would a good God allow bad things to happen?&quot; Because free will gives people the choice of doing right or doing wrong. If God prevented or reversed wrongdoing, free will is nullified. <br /><br />In the Creator's point of view, having creatures who support and serve him willingly and freely because they believe it to be right and because they love him, is so desirable as to be worth the cost of evil being a choice. <br /><br />The Creator could have made everyone in what we WoTmaniacs could call a constant state of compulsion, unable to choose, and noone would ever be killed, raped, maimed or otherwise harmed. But the creature wouldn't serve the Creator out of love or a willing desire, and that must be the thing the Creator craves more than all else. So much so that even interfering with events would cheapen the resulting joy.<br /><br />So, to get back to the initial point, why, if the one being named Creator isn't really the Creator, would he withhold his hand from any influence available? If he isn't the true object of people's reverence, he should be free to act as he sees fit. It just doesn't work for me to call someone the Creator for nine or more volumes, only to reveal that he is an underling of the REAL creative personality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 16:16:43
subject: <b>History refrences</b>
body:
I think Rj is missing something<br /><br />the companion book states<br /><br />&quot;a place outside the pattern where the dark one had been imprisioned since the moment of creation&quot;<br /><br />this makes me wonder - is it possible that the wheel was turning on and on, a nice happy place without the dark one <br /><br />( other quote from the companion book &quot;during the age of legends no one  knew of the  dark one or felt his touch&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />and that stupid humans altered the way the wheel turned? Could it be possible that in the age of legends (what age is that anyway? first? second? Last?) the dark one had never touched the wheel, and all was good. then they messed it up<br /><br />of course, this can't be proved until we see how rand seels the bore. If he does it imperfectly, well it would be almost true cause it wouldn't be a perfect seal. IF he some how manages to perfectly seel the bore, or the creator steps in, it means teh wheel continues on as before.<br /><br />i wonder what will happen?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Calis, Lover of many<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Spettio - One and True Love &quot;Moo&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Rhapsody - Sinfilled Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Hollie - Forbbiden Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> B.Alicia - Emotional Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Clover - Love in Waiting<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Catriona - Princess Bride Love</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 07:24:29
subject: <b>rebuild, not reseal</b>
body:
I think there have been some allusions that Rand must re-imprison Shai-Tan, not reseal him. Herid Fel sent him that note that told him to clear the rubble and rebuild (or something like that) so perhaps that's what it means.<br /><br />   If Rand just had a new bore made with both Saidin and Saidar this time then he is just replugging an old hole. He may have to call upon the power of the creator or use all of the one power that he can (with men and women in droves to help him out) to do it. This may be what his purpose is. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 05:47:53
subject: <b>Uh-Oh</b>
body:
Lord Savaunt, you named the Dark One!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  Run!  Run for you life!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 10:55:59
subject: <b>True Source</b>
body:
I think it more likely thet the True Source is drawn from the passive Creator, whereas the True Power is the Dark One's version (Meirin &quot;found that place in whch the DO had bee imprisoned&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 09:16:10
subject: <b>Just one flaw...</b>
body:
The creator said (mark me, he SAID): &quot;I will not interfere&quot;.<br /><br />This implies the unWILLingness not to act, but the capability to do so... Also, I have always though that the DO is just one guy who is completely corrupted, and somehow taps into the True Power. He would be the Champion of evil, while the Dragon is champion of goodness.<br />I think Padan Fain, being who and what he is, only needs some access to the true Power before he can challenge the DO (maybe after Rand destroys him...). So the DO could be different with each turning of the wheel, but always with the same caracteristics: corrupted in as many ways as possible (Fain's got the present DO's taint, Mashadar, Machin Chin, he only needs the true Power, which is also corrupted.).<br /><br />Sorry if that was long...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 12:50:57
subject: <b>2nd Flaw</b>
body:
While I agree with the overall argument of this post, I disagree with the<br />evidence Mountain Dancer presented to support the argument that Rand has <br />fought for the dark side.  Mountain Dancer writes:  <br /><br />&gt;Artur Hawkwing to Rand: &quot;I have fought by your side times beyond <br />&gt;number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more.&quot;  (TGH, 661)<br /><br />This line doesn't prove that Rand/Lewis Therin/The Dragon Reborn fought<br />on the dark side.  It could have been Hawkwing who switched sides.


created: 2001-06-12 13:54:52
subject: <b>Lies of Philosophy</b>
body:
The problem with most theories based on Ishy's statements is he was insane.  The DO never verifies his ideas of eternal conflict and the rest of the Forsaken seem to view his theories as off-the-wall.  Also he IS capable of lying.<br /><br />The Dragon never served the Dark One.  Rand challenged him and said something to the effect of, &quot;I know now that I've never served you etc.&quot; wherein Ishy gets really mad.  Ishy might even have believed the Dragon once served him and the DO was playing with his mind.  It's more likely Hawkwing fought LTT for the Shadow or even for neutral reasons.<br /><br />Too much of what is taken as fact about the Wheel was given by a raging lunatic


created: 2001-06-12 14:31:10
subject: <b>........</b>
body:
it is possible that LTT fought the dragon AFTER the battle and at that time it doesn't realy matter who was on witch side...<br />but...if  existed infinate time then u musty have done EVERYTHING!!!<br />just think of it for a sec....u can't just sit in 1 place without doing nothing for half an eterninty...<br />at some point u gotta move...and if u move once then u WILL move again...<br />so basicaly...if the dragon exsited from the begining of time and IF the wheel has no begginings as it is mentioned so many times in the first few books then....it HAD 2...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 16:10:56
subject: <b>hmmmm.....</b>
body:
Ishy did mention that a Champion of the Light has turned to the shadow before.  Yet Ishy seems to believe, as well, that if the dragon reborn can be converted that the WoT can be broken.  This suggests that not even Ishy believes that the dragon reborn has been converted.  Even if we assume that what Ishy says is true (about a hero for the light being converted) that hero isn't necessarily Rand.  Heck, that hero could even be Ishy himself!  Remember that Ishy appeared in the clouds along with Rand.  Maybe Ishy was a hero of the horn.  <br /><br />I don't believe that the Dragon has ever been turned to the shadow for the reason mentioned above.  Rand (while in the clouds after the horn was blown) felt certain that he had never served the shadow.  This happened just after the heros were summoned where Rand knew a hundred names for each of the heros.  The fact that he knows those names suggests that while in the cloud he was in partial touch with the memories the dragon has while in T'A'R waiting to be reborn.  It is this partial conection with his memories in T'A'R that allows him to know that he had never served the shadow.<br /><br />As far as Artur Hawkwing's comment that they have fought each other countless times, this doesn't mean that either one has turned to the shadow.  Two people fighting for good can, and do, fight against each other.  There is even a possibility that Rand was Guaire Alamasan or that Artur Hawkwing is Pedron Niall (I know about the time difference thank you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) .  <br /><br />My 2 cents.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 13:49:36
subject: <b>NOT!</b>
body:
!!!<br />by the theory of endlessness if u live long enough u must do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE!!!<br />and unless the wheel controls the souls...hten the dragon must have fought for the shadow...<br />and the wheel HAS been broken...probably fixed by hte creator...<br />but what u REALY need 2 ask is what will the DO get from it?<br /><br /><br />{<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />}<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />{<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />}<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 19:34:52
subject: <b>Excellent theory</b>
body:
I just wanted to say excellent theory.  Summarizes many of my own thoughts very well.  I particularly like the series because of the God/Satan analogy.  I would like more of the authors thoughts on the &quot;free will verse omnipitant God&quot; thing (big argument between God and angle of lights) and the fact that the creator in the series says &quot;only the chosen one may...&quot; which implies there is something the great creator can not do...  Thoughts anyone?<br /><br />- just another guy who reads the books...<br /><br />p.s.  general comment :  it IS possible people that RJ may have made a &quot;logical mistake&quot; some places in the series...  he is NOT the creator....  (sorry for the diehard fans...)


created: 2001-06-14 05:06:31
subject: <b>Beautiful Theory</b>
body:
WOT as a methaphore for human nature.<br />We have to integrate or good and bad sites into our own personality to prevent ourselves of being destroyed or harmed by either our good sites (for instance by ignoring our own needs on always giving in to needs of someone else) or our bad sites (certainly in extreme situations like war, violence, great poverty etc.)<br />


created: 2001-06-14 17:43:05
subject: <b>Dang. That's one sharp theory. Thanks.</b>
body:
Umm... I don't have anything more to add.  So have a smiley: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm&gt;Cool Fish&lt;/a&gt;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 20:33:18
subject: <b>x.x</b>
body:
i was too bloody lazy to read ...that....guys long post, but what i got from the blackboard responses sounds good. However, while i think Ishamael is/was the coolest Forsaken, never truely being sealed by the Bore, going some-what insane, believeing himself to be the Dark One Himself ( which he has an excuse for. Being the only Chosen free for three thousand years or so, he was pretty much Na'blis, or however you spell it the entire time. He most likely had usage of the True Power for that time, and his firey eyes and mouth could have been a side-effect of this ). Ishamael was also a philospher before he turned to the Shadow, so despite his long list of attributes to being insane, he prolly still retains his core self. <br /><br />On Good Ol' Ish being seen in the skies above Falme, there are a number of explinations, none of which are that he is/was a Hero of the Horn. ' It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Wheel '. No offense, but the Forsaken arent brave. no Darkfriend is ( Ingtar may be an exception, since he wasnt a DF anymore when he sacrificed himself for Rand, Mat, Perrin and Hurin ). Their greedy. Following any order for a chance of immortality or meerly being able to be powerful after the DO &quot; wins &quot;<br /><br />Reasons why Ish Was in the Sky Fighting Rand<br />1) He wasnt really in the sky. he was fighting Rand on the ground, and some divine intervention ( perhaps the Creator helping one of the Prophecies coming to pass ), or maybe one of Ish's own tricks made them appear to fight in the sky.<br />2)Ish uses the True Power to fight Rand in the sky, which could reason out why he used a charred staff instead of One/True Power against him. Too busy keeping them in the sky.<br /><br /><br />But, in the end, it doesnt really matter HOW they got into the sky. They were there. <br /><br /><br />Demon of the Little Turning Pictures<br />Knave


created: 2001-06-15 01:12:27
subject: <b>Good Theory, One thing to add</b>
body:
I think that RJ may be forgetting some of the things he has said in his previous books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> becaus in tDR (pg 674) Moiraine says &quot;You are ta'veren, Mat, a thread more crucial to the pattern than most, and the sounder of the Horn of Valere.  Nothing is done for you, yet.&quot;  She says it RIGHT IN FRONT OF Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve, and they heard her, yet in a later book, (aCoS, pg 461) Birgitte says &quot;For one, you've not told them you've blown the Horn of Valere.&quot;  They SHOULD already know, as that fact was already mentioned RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM!!!!  Just wanted to know what's up with that.  Sorry if this is long.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 03:30:47
subject: <b>Can/May</b>
body:
Just a little response to Tim and his saying that the Creator saying &quot;only the chosen one MAY&quot; implies that creator CAN not interfere. The Creator has chosen not to act, and therefore MAY not interfere, but if he changes his mind and decides to act, he is capable of doing so. I am pretty sure that the here-to-fore drawn difference between can and may is the correct one, or I have been wrong all these years.


created: 2001-06-15 12:27:25
subject: <b>The fight in the clouds</b>
body:
isn't connected to the horn, it's just the announcement of the dragon. This vision was also seen at the battlefields of Saldea and Tera where the false Dragons were captured.<br />I agree to some parts of the thoery to some not. I agree that the Creator and DO are kind of equal in strenght but these are different strengths and the Wheel of Time itself is also a very big constant you mentioned but not really included in the right way in your theory. The pattern itself changes things, does things in order to fullfill prophecies. It's the scale the weights the power of good an evil, the more powerful the Creator gets, the better the pattern will be, the more Evil it gets. The pattern choses also the &quot;chosen&quot;, remember that the people  say &quot;..the pattern weaves as it will..&quot; and not &quot;... the Creator weaves as he will&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 07:13:11
subject: <b>Good Sir I Am Awed...</b>
body:
That has to be the best theory I've ever seen. It gets to the  point, it stays there without wandering off, and it sets things in easily comprehisible terms. You sir are amazing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 16:32:56
subject: <b>A bow for Excellence</b>
body:
Firstly, as others have said before me, that was a terrific post. Nice and rounded. As ever, there are thoughts inpsired by the best posts.<br /> Now, it has always been my belief that the DO and the Creator were two halves of a whole, split by I don't know what. Therefore they're equal in a way that God and Satan are not. The fact is that the Creator values the world as it is, and so finds no reason to interfere, but the DO strives for mastery--and therein lies his weakness. What I get confused by is that the DO cites Rand/the Dragon/LTT as his arch enemy, but that implies THEY are equal...which, if the DO is parallel to the Creator cannot be--Rand is only a mortal after all, despite his everlasting soul. The only slight explanation I can offer is that the DO allows himself/itself/herself to see humans as threats, and that is why he takes direct action, in the form of ordering the Forsaken about in SG. <br /> Before I slide into a circle of confusion (on my part anyway) can I just say it's extremely unlikely that Fain will ever be able to challenge the DO in any way. Yes, Mashadar/Mordeth/strange dilution at SG/etc, but I don't see the clouds changing because of his presence. I also see the fact that if Rand got in balefire range of Fain there'd be nothing left for even Liandrin to sneeze at--can you see balefire working on the DO? Him not having a thread to burn does make the job just that little bit harder.<br /> Rand is not going to kill the DO. If that were possible, it will have been done--wonders of the AoL and all that--and besides, without the DO's touch, how can you define good and evil? That would be a reversion to T'a'R. <br />Completely lost my train of thought. Hate that.<br /><br /> ~Seidazar~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Seidazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Witch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Devoted Mat Follower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <i>It's been lovely but I have to scream now</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 00:36:39
subject: <b>The Dark One</b>
body:
I never really understood the reasoning that the DO was once human (except to justify Fain's still being alive)-- after all, the DO is powerful enough to put a taint on saidin that Rand needed a *huge* sa'angreal *and* Nynaeve with a *huge* sa'angreal (in other words, a lot of the Power) to remove. With Rand being touted as the most powerful channeler in forever (and equal to the strongest of the Forsaken, pretty much), it's hard to believe that the DO could be so many *times* stronger and still be human. Or have been human at any point. Shouldn't the TP have burned him to a crisp or something?


created: 2001-06-17 01:03:33
subject: <b>Here's an interesting thought I just came up with...</b>
body:
You know the whole cliche thing where omnipotent (well, god like) beings need to lower themselves to the form of their enemy to fight them sometimes? Well, maybe what will happen when the Dark One is freed is that he will have to take FULL possession of a human, thus making himself mortal temporarily. You see, this is so cliche but hey, at the point the Creator's chosen one eg Rand will possibly balefire his @ss. Now, this may be the purpose of the Dark One's Nae'blis, because, despite ALL the fighting that is going on between the forsaken only the STRONGEST will survive, now, that would be a pefect body to steal now wouldn't it! Obviously the Dark One has a bit of a superiority / inferiority complex going on.... but he still thinks he can find a way to beat the Creator's Champion. Upon possessing his numero uno man the Dark One may be able to have unlimited access to the True Power, and possibly still the One Power. This new pet theory of mine, which could SO easily have been mentioned before also helps with the Pain could reach the same level as the Dark One kinda thing. As, maybe Pain finds a way to escape the pattern, thus making himself god like, however he then becomes trapped (by the Dragon or someone else?)<br />I think this covers my idea. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Resident cynic.<br />KIWI and proud of it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-18 14:24:43
subject: <b>P-P-Pain</b>
body:
I rather liked 'Pain'...nice little agglomeration of 'Padan' and 'Fain'....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~Seidazar~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Seidazar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Witch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Devoted Mat Follower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <i>It's been lovely but I have to scream now</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 17:38:00
subject: <b>Gods Taking Human Form</b>
body:
I like Belal's suggestion about a higher being having to take on a lesser form to interact with the human world. It's the whole principle behind Avatars and things like that. Also, the WoT dualism really does resemble Zoroastrianism, with Ahura-Mazdha as the God of Light and Ahriman as the God of Darkness (or Shadow); also, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Shai'tan (the DO's true name) is derived from Islam, which some people believe was derived from Zoroastrianism. Just a thought.<br /><br />~D.C.


created: 2001-06-19 23:33:35
subject: <b>One Semi-huge flaw in this theory</b>
body:
I have trouble believing that creation started in the world of dreams, especially considering what i have to say.  Tel'aran'rhiod is not a constant between all of the different worlds, it is one of those worlds.  Oh well.  The rest seemed good to me. <br />c ya, <br />The drunk clown<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 21:05:46
subject: <b>Manichian</b>
body:
When RJ said &quot;manichian&quot; I'm pretty sure that he was refering to &quot;Dues Ex Machina&quot; or &quot;God and Machine.&quot;  It meant that he made the DO that way so that there would be some interesting conflict, not on the basis of that religion.  Its OK though, sometimes I think I'm the only person who knows that phrase (that I've met, I see references all the time in literature, ect.).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-05 20:32:35
subject: <b>Dragon being turned over.</b>
body:
In reply the idea of the Dragon being turned over to the Dark One just because it says that Hawkwing has battled him before is no proof.  For exsample, the book also says that those bond to the Horn can also fight for the Dark One if the Hornsounder is a darkfreind.  It never says which.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat Cauthon Son of Battle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Danielle Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Bladesmaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat Cauthon Son of Battle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Danielle Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner and Master of the Ashandarie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 13:52:33
subject: <b>LT/Rand Quote</b>
body:
Well, I didn't finish reading all of the above on the blackboard, so sorry if this is repeated somewhere up there, but...<br /><br />Remember that when the heroes are called by the horn they will follow whoever blows it - Therefore if a darkfriend blows it they will be on the DO's side, meaning the Dragon Reborn would be fighting against them... Although I do remember Ishy saying that the Dragon had been the DO's champion sometimes, so there are 2 explinations for that.<br /><br />And if I missed something that proves me wrong on that point, its probably because I just finished reading book 7, I still need to read the rest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-25 23:02:41
subject: <b>One Thought...Or Two...Or Three...</b>
body:
Assume for the moment that the Dark One doesn't have to take a corporeal form, and that the True Power is a finite source. I am going with the assumption that he doesn't have to take a physical form on one fact: there's no evidence that he did while free in the War of Power. I am also believing Lanfear when she claims that the Choedan Kal put together could handle the Dark One, and that the two statues multiplication factors, however powerful, are finite. Obviously it's not an infinite power, otherwise the first War of Power would have been over about the time the Sharom hit the dirt. It took several years, and although the Shadow appeared to be the stronger side, I don't recall it being because the DO was throwing around the TP right and left by himself.<br /><br />Is it possible that Ishy/Moridin (As well as Shaidar Haran, and any other chums'o'nastiness who get on the Big Guy's good side) will not be able to access the TP during the Last Battle?  My thought is that the only reason that the DO has given access to the TP to the 29 mortals (and, apparently, one steroids enhanced myrrdraal)is that it's not doing him much good to hoard the stuff in the Bore. Once he's free, he's got control of the situation. Anyone drawing on the True Power is merely taking away his power. Without the TP, Superfade might seem a little more vulnerable, not to mention Moridin being vastly reduced in power.<br /><br />On the other hand, should the Dark One take a more direct role in the battle, Shaidar Haran and Moridin, et al., probably wouldn't be the biggest of Our Heros' concerns.<br /><br />Just a few thoughts...anyone?


created: 2002-04-29 01:41:32
subject: <b>what about the age of legends</b>
body:
In the age of legends there was no war. Humans apparently never even knew what it was, or rather did know but had forgotten. How can you reconcile this with the idea of the two being in complete balance. Also things have changed since the age of legends and for the worse. In the books this change is linked with the DO having a stronger presence in the world. So if the two are in complete balance this would suggest that the Creator's has grown as well (no one mention light friends, or I will scream). My question is how can this be true. I liked some of what was in this theory but this part I can't quite fit in with it. There has to be some level of flux or the DO's goal is meaningless. I think that while they are equal, one must be able to best the other on a temporary level. The creator may be striving to keep this balance the same but the dark one is trying to destroy it and thus the world, universe, existence etc... and then he would re-make it in his image. This is another thing that we have been constantly told. The DO wants to re-make the world in his image.


created: 2003-07-08 04:27:09
subject: <b>Good theory but.......</b>
body:
I completely disagree with the idea that the dragon has fought alongside the DO. First of all Hawking's saying he had fought LTT many times bla,bla doesn't mean they were light/creator vs dark/DO battles. It could have been as a guy posted above just battles from differen kingdoms. Look at Mat's memories he has fought against Hawking many times without being rallied into any side. I think some battles were only meant to shape up the pattern.<br />  You quoted  Ishy telling LLT that their souls fight each wheel's turning wouldn't that be contradicting this:<br /> &quot;the Dragon Reborn can be the Shadow's champion&quot; <br />Or do your mean  the dragon reborn is that character who gives the balance to the DO/Creator struggle. <br /> and i don't think the next Dark One will be Padan Pain because he is bound with the wheel and Shai'Tan is not (I agree he is has no string in the wheel) Padan Pain's evil comes directly from men. It would be like an &quot;wheel born evil&quot; and it could prove that the creator split him self. If humans have evil within their nature and the Creator &quot;created&quot; humans he could have created them while he was still bound with his evil part (the DO)<br />


created: 2003-09-17 17:09:24
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
To me it seems like you are exactly right.  The only question is:<br /><br />If the Creator does not take an active role in the world, and the DO does, then why doesn't the DO win every time?  <br /><br />For example, if the Creator and the DO were playing chess, and the Creator wasn't trying at all, and the DO was doing his best, wouldn't the DO win?  It seems the same with Randland.  If the DO is constantly trying to take over in every age, what keeps him from winning???  Perhaps the Creator chooses to let his human subjects try to defeat the DO on their own, and just in case they don't, the Creator will step in at the last moment and finish what the humans could not.


created: 2003-12-19 19:55:16
subject: <b>I have a question</b>
body:
in most theories about the dark one/evil and the creator/good everybody says theres a balance between the dark one/evil and the creator/good and that the dark one/evil cant be killed for it would throw off the balance and only the creator/good would be there my question is why would that be a problem wouldnt it be good if there was only a creator/good?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-06 20:08:00
subject: <b>um</b>
body:
I know it's been 5 years since DarkHawk posted 'Remember that when the heroes are called by the horn they will follow whoever blows it - Therefore if a darkfriend blows it they will be on the DO's side, meaning the Dragon Reborn would be fighting against them... '<br /><br />When called in tGH, Hawkwing said something still held him and wanted to know if Rand had the banner.  They heroes answer the horn, but follow the banner.  To follow a Darkfriend and fight for the DO, therefore, the hornsounder would also have to have a dragon banner... not common knowledge in Randland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-25 21:12:45
subject: <b>Out on a limb here....</b>
body:
First of all, great theory, and I agree wholeheartedly with almost all of your conclusions; that The Dragon is reborn with every age to fight the Champion of Dark, Ishy.  This has been going on since the dawn of time and, therefore, should continue going on endlessly until (or if) the DO wins.<br /><br />But, again with RJ's love of symmetry (saidin-saidar, DO-Creator, Ishy-Dragon) Since there is a way for the DO to win, there must be a way for the light to win as well.<br /><br />Now bear with me on this one; in the movies the Matrix, the battle between the machines and humans has passed 6 times before Neo comes along and breaks the cycle. The movies were about the anomaly, not about the 6 other times where the status quo was maintained.<br /><br />How does this relate to WOT? Because RJ devised the world of Randland and began telling the story of this third age. Why did he not write about say... Lews Therin in the AoL? because that was not the end. All of the other fights between the Dragon and Ishy, and there have been infinite battles between them, were the same, the DO ended up locked up again and the Dragon died waiting to be reborn to fight again.<br /><br />The point is, RJ is writing about this fight. This fight cannot simply be a repeat of all the previous, fights or else there would be no point in telling it. This time, things will have to end differently, because the series cannot end with the bore sealed and the cycle of time simply continuing on with no end in sight. There is an end, and it comes with Rand.


created: 2001-06-12 15:02:51
subject: <b>You forgot something</b>
body:
Yeah, you forgot the channeling is linked to the soul. Thus every incarnation of LTT/Rand can channel and Prince Cerra probably couldn't. But the similarity between al'Thor could be hint that Tam al'Thor is a descendent of the royal Family of Manetheren. Not that that matters so far.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 15:19:30
subject: <b>NO LOST HAND!!!</b>
body:
I don't think that Rand will lose his hand for one reason.  How is he to be marked twice by the heron with only one hand.  &quot;Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live and twice to die.....&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-12 15:38:14
subject: <b>Maybe the hand represents something?</b>
body:
Like a valuable helper or a big supporting group. <br /><br />It could go like this: He tries to mend the peace between f.ex. the asha'man and the aes sedai, and ends up losing the asha'man, who are acting as an important group at the moment, especially in battle. He would have lost a lot without them. Besides, they are already untrustworthy...


created: 2001-06-12 16:19:52
subject: <b>why rand could lose his hand...</b>
body:
I don't remember which book, but I remember reading a passage in which Rand was dreaming.  He was being chased by a entity we later find out is Padan Fain/Mordeth, who was chanting something to the effect of &quot;all I want is your hand.&quot;  It didn't seem significant the first time I read it, but...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 20:44:43
subject: <b>Al'Thor</b>
body:
Must I really state that Rand is -not- an Al'thor? I mean really... Tam is, but Rand is not. Rand was found by Tam and is an Aiel. So blah! Rand cannot be related to this Prince or he'd have to be related to Tam.<br /><br />-Rawin


created: 2001-06-12 21:36:24
subject: <b>Guys...read the theory...</b>
body:
I disagree with the theory but some of the comments are really off-base.<br /><br />The Prince was suggested to be an allusion to Rand.  Nowhere did the theory say that the Prince is Rand's soul.  Nowhere.  Nor does it mean that Rand has to be a -real- al'Thor to represent son of Thorin.<br /><br />That said, I think the theory author is reading too much into a bit of simple fun history.  I don't think Rand is going to lose a hand, or a helper (although given that everything in the theory is an allusion, the helper idea is much more likely than the literal hand-chop-off idea).<br /><br />Oh, BTW, where does it say that channeling is linked to the soul?  The Dragon can always channel, sure, Birgitte is always a good archer and Gaidal Cain is always ugly.  Is ugliness inherent in the soul?  Birgitte wasn't always pretty, but sometimes she was.<br /><br />The Guide is actually pretty explicit in saying that channeling is linked to genetics in much the same way that eye-colour is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 02:48:16
subject: <b>To Y.M</b>
body:
Your forgetting something, the genetics theory can't explain Halima/Aran'gar. But combining that genetics and the soul affect the capability to channel causes some problems. One is, if everybody is someone reborn how can your parents affect your channeling capacity. But according to what we have learned about the wheel of time only those that are bound to the wheel are born anew. The others just disappear.<br />One question I would want to have answered is are there any channelers bound to the wheel, or are they just ordinary people.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><b> Lupo </b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Fantasy-Fantast magnific <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolf at heart <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Original Finn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 13:00:48
subject: <b>He's marked</b>
body:
Rand is marked on both hands. The herons, and the dragons, whose heads actually reach his hands. Can't lose those, can he. Maybe he could, but would he still be marked? Hmm...not something I want to get into.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-13 16:12:29
subject: <b>The losing of a hand</b>
body:
I think there will be a loss of a hand in WOT soon, but I think that will be Elaynes doing. And I cant see any reason for her to cut a off on of Rands hands =)


created: 2001-06-13 18:44:40
subject: <b>The Metaphorical Hand</b>
body:
What is the only direct reference to &quot;hand&quot; in WOT?  Matt's army, The Band of the Red Hand.  Perhap Min's vision of a bloody hand is metaphorical of Rand having to decide to cut them off from support in a significant battle.  Or perhaps Elayne must do it (somewhat of a probability since The Band are in/near Andor).  Just another way to look at it.


created: 2001-06-13 19:20:27
subject: <b>illyena</b>
body:
nothing to do with illyena here at all, but whatever.<br /><br />Min had a viewing once of either Rand or Elayne, I don't remember which, that contained a floating or bloody hand, i don't remember if it was floating or bloody.  Also, there was a story of one of the Heroes of the Horn with one hand, and shortly after, Rand had a dream where someone was chasing him to take his hand, which had been mentioned on the blackboard.  This dream could mean something, but it could just be some of his reflecting on the days events, hearing the story of the handless hero!  Okay?  YEAH!


created: 2001-06-13 19:28:05
subject: <b>Rand will loose a hand...</b>
body:
I believe Rand will loose a hand.  I remember something about a &quot;S'argreal&quot; (sp?) which is a 3-way bracelet and I think used by 2 women to control 1 man.  I believe Rand will get trapped with the bracelet and Perrin will need to cut off his hand (wolf teeth) to save him.  What do you think?<br /><br />- just another guy who reads the books...<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-15 05:10:19
subject: <b>Tim...</b>
body:
I really don't think Perrin will chew off Rand's arm, Tim, if that's what you mean.. I don't remember Min's viewing about the bloody/floating hand, but if Min had viewing about Elayne and a bloody/floating hand, it's probably something bout The Band of the Red Hand. And.. everybody has said that Min had this viewing bout Elayne, so I don't see where Rand gets into all this.. Because his _adoptive_ father is named al'Thor, and lives in the Two Rivers? Yeah, of course, why wouldn't he loose an arm because of that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 16:19:06
subject: <b>one hand</b>
body:
The losing of a hand seems to have always had major significance in fantasy and mythology.  I mean, it comes up enough times that you just can't ignore it.  Min's viewing of a bloody hand for Mat I think is an obvious foreshadowing of The Band of the Red Hand, and NOTHING ELSE.  Whether or not someone is actually going to lose a hand is a different matter, though. I don't think it has to do with that particular viewing. As for Halima/Aran'gar, aren't the Forsaken a little more than mortal?  I mean, so what if channeling is really and truly genetic?  That would make no difference to immortals like the DO and near-immortals like the Forsaken.  If the DO is raising people from the dead and sticking them in new bodies, he can probably alter the genetic makeup of the 'shell' of Aran'gar to allow him to still channel.  The DO is tricky, you know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 17:42:23
subject: <b>Another comment to Tim</b>
body:
Besides, Mr. Tim, if Perrin was to bite something off to free Rand from the A'Dam (sp, too lazy to look, like always.), he's have to bit off Rand's head, cause that would be where the thingy would be attached, and I don't think that it would be very good for the light if they had a headless Dragon Reborn.   But hey, maybe the Dragon Reborn would be Reborn.   Who knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 19:16:56
subject: <b>Thanks for the clarification...</b>
body:
People :<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification.  I am not sure where the &quot;Rand will loose a hand&quot; theory started (either BotRH or a physical hand) but my thoughts have been clarified regarding the &quot;2 women, control 1 man bracelet thingy&quot;.  I guess it goes on the neck of the man.  Thanks again.<br /><br />- just a guy who needs to read the books more carefully...<br /><br />p.s.  I was envisioning Perrin's axe as his &quot;teeth&quot;...<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-06-16 07:05:48
subject: <b>What about the suldams?</b>
body:
If Rand gets trapped in that A'dam and it's connected to a woman by her wrist that would make her a suldam. Well if Perrin can't figure out how to unlock it (and even though he is a smith, he isn't a locksmith) then he may have to cut off the hand of the suldam (or both if there are two and each using a bracelet). I can see Perrin doing this so as to avoid killing the woman. He is then stuck with Rand in the collar and not able to move him much. Rand wouldn't be able to even channel.<br /><br />   If Mat were there however, he could figure out the male a'dam. He is a real sharp boy with locks and such. He's already figured out how to unlock the female a'dams. The male conterpart might be a different kettle of fish altogether though. It might have a different style of locking, but Mat does have some kind of foreknowledge to take with him.<br /><br />   This would be a prime example of why the three of them need to be together at certain time. Perrin to cut off the hand of the suldam (so she can't use Rand to channel), and Mat to unlock it. In fact Mat may have to give the fox medallion to Perrin so that he can get in close enought to do the damage with out getting hit by the power. Meanwhile Mat may have to hold off some guards or such.<br /><br />   This would be Rand involved in something with Perrin and Mat that includes a bloody hand that is severed. It also gives Perrin a reason to do something and further shut people down when they try to call him the weak link. He doesn't take up so much space in the books cause he uses it effectively. It takes Mat forever to get through a certain phase or situation. Perrin just heads into a scenario and gets out in most cases. He's only been taking so long with getting Faile back because certain other characters are wanting more of the spot light. I'm rambling aren't I?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 16:02:47
subject: <b>Galad will lose the hand</b>
body:
Really to make Rand loose a hand is to much. He already got the doble wound in his hand, herons branded in his hands, the dragons, channeling sickness, possible madness and will probably go blind and die at Shayol Ghul. To also loose a hand is a little to much. Which all the times he almost died in the books and been healead from houndreds of wound, if the healing left scars he would be covered in scars. To put a lost hand on that is overdoing the thing a little. Nothing of Mins viewing says that the hand is his and it also appears in view of Elayne. So what do those two have in common - Galad their halfbrother. Galad is the one in the books that seems to have been most unharmed, except from fighting Mat he doesn't ever get even a small bruise. It is kind of time that something bad happens to him. Maybe he will be trapped and Elayne and Rand will be the only ones able to save him and by some reason they can't use the power and will have to cut off his hand.


created: 2001-06-18 05:16:23
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
Min has two viewings concerining a severed or bloody hand.  The first is in EotW and is connected to Rand ie &quot;...a sword that isn&#8217;t a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar&#8217;s staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood.  Most of all I see lightening around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you.&quot; <br /><br />The second is in tGH and is connected to Elayne ie &quot;One of the things she said she saw looking at me was a severed hand.  Not mine, she says.&quot;<br /><br />I wouldn't like say that Rand was going to loose a hand based on just those two viewings, and Elaynes viewing is more likely to be the Band of the Red Hand.


created: 2001-06-19 11:10:22
subject: <b>remember Tyr</b>
body:
Right does every one remember that rand was similar to the god tyr??? well i read Norse mythology and Tyr had one hand bitten off by the wolf (son of loki) hence perrin will cut his hand off<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />not fact just speculating.....


created: 2001-06-19 23:16:04
subject: <b>Thanks bayside</b>
body:
Thank you for clarifying exactly what the viewings were, which has ultimately led to this outcome in my mind: Rand may or may not lose a hand in his lifetime, and whether the hand is real or symbolic remains unseen.  However, I don't think that Rand will ever lose a hand due to the viewing Min had about him, because to me, this meant when he got mared with his first heron.       <br /><br />        Sincerely,<br />       Flaming Moe<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 08:50:24
subject: <b>Red Handed!</b>
body:
The Band are prety much a merc unit in Ghealdan now, near the Andor border right? At the same time the Queen's Guard has been infiltrated by a Darkfriend assasin as its Captain. SO, the Band will rescue Elayne. Maybe with Mat at its head, maybe not. I seem to remember that when they were all together in Altara the Band really doted on Elayne.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 15:02:15
subject: <b>Reply to Lord Sauvant</b>
body:
You said that a sul'dam would use an a'dam to bind the car'a'carn to her. (Just love those ' words)<br />In the Great Hunt Renna, the sul'dam who takes Egwene a prisoner (I think it's her) mentions, that both the man and the woman would die, if both were able to channel.<br />We know that Rand can channel and have known that sul'dam have the ability to channel since tGH (Seta's comment that only channelers can be bound by an A'dam, about page 600 or so) that would kinda kill off both.<br /><br />We also saw the effect the touching of an a'dam had for Rand, when he followed Aviendha to Seanchan and tried to get the a'dam off of the da'mane (I think that's what happened right?) so the idea of having Rand linked to a sul'dam seems unlikely if not impossible to me!<br /><br />ps- Tyr gets his hand bitten off by a wolf? Ouch, if Perrin really would have to use his bloody axe to chop Rand's hand off that'd suck!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:35:44
subject: <b>No, It's Bella who looses the hand!</b>
body:
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-16 10:12:32
subject: <b>Directed at Lupa</b>
body:
Channeling is linked to the soul, and evidence of that is that Arangar, a DO-raised forsaken, is a woman who can channel Saidin.  I dont believe that is *genetically* possible, but if its linked to the soul... well, lets just say its a whole new ball of wax.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mikel Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Bonded to Aida Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-01 13:59:52
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Its quite possible that Tam al'Thor is related to the prince, but remember that Rand is NOT related to Tam except that he was raised by him. There is no blood relation.<br /><br />However, to further support your idea of a blood relation &quot;al&quot; in the last name means &quot;Son Of&quot;, so it is quite possible Tam is related to the prince in some way.


created: 2001-10-07 20:18:39
subject: <b>The Hand is the Band</b>
body:
I think Rand will have a fight with Mat and lose the band's suport. Then the Band would go to Andor to help Elayne.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">FanFic Girl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 08:22:14
subject: <b>A little more</b>
body:
I remember when Nyn was fighting Moghedien or someother time during that book she touched the male a'dam and felt the same thing Rand felt when he touched the female one How could a channeler control Rand with it?


created: 2002-04-21 14:16:44
subject: <b>to mat101</b>
body:
Nyn didn't feel the same thing as when a man touches the link that can be entered by no man but she feels 'Pain and suffering' anywayz Moggy said that the male a'dam needed to women to control it and that the taint could affect the women when in that link.....


created: 2002-05-01 19:50:10
subject: <b>Rand and His One Hand</b>
body:
i dont believe that robert jordan would take rand al'thor 's  hand away.. since he made rand into a blademaster it wouldnt be fair to take his hand away... but i do believe that the his one hand would mean Taim as his Asha'man leader would be &quot;cut/severed&quot; or killed. but he of course has another hand and that would be Logain who is proving himself to be quite the leader. think about it. <br /><br />reptilian sin


created: 2002-05-13 03:30:05
subject: <b>Adding to the mix</b>
body:
Im just re-reading TSR and came upon this interesting quote Nynaeve says &quot;what makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be healed back into existence&quot; We've seen Nynaeve heal stilling/gentling so if Rand does indeed lose a hand then this quote shows that Nyn might be able to restore it back. I'm not sure if Rand loses a hand or something happens to the band or something else. but this was just someting i saw while reading and thought it was important in the whole bloody hand debate


created: 2002-06-29 06:54:04
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Another thing to consider, aside from the verbal similarities between Thorin and al'Thor in tGH it is mentioned that al' means son of.  Just something to chew on...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 15:41:56
subject: <b>A Possible Reason This May Have Already Happened</b>
body:
In many ancient cultures, and as we all know, RJ has borrowed from many, a mans weapon was often refered to as his hand. So, since we already know that Rands original sword was destroyed, it is possible that this is what was meant by the whole lost hand story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DO NOT TRIFLE WITH DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY, AND TASTE GOOD WITH CATSUP......</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 20:36:34
subject: <b>my $0.02</b>
body:
First of all I don't read into these books as much as some of you do, and the only reason I found this passage was because I just finished reading LoC. I found an interesting quote that seems to have been overlooked:<br /><br />p. 868 (paperback) ch. The Mirror of Mists<br /><br />   &quot;Trust me, Min. I won't hurt you. I will cut off my arm before I hurt you.&quot; She was silent, and he finally looked down to find her peering up at him with a strange expression.<br />   &quot;That's very nice to hear, sheephearder.&quot; Her voice was as odd as her vace.<br /><br />I think this quote, in conjunction with the other agruments and quotes (like the viewings), is Robert Jordans way of foreshadowing Rand losing an appendage.


created: 2003-06-17 13:27:30
subject: <b>I disagree....</b>
body:
...just because I don't want him to loose his hand! NOOOO, lol. Although, I have been thinking that too, during my newest time through The Eye of the World.


created: 2004-03-27 17:12:00
subject: <b>About Aran'gar...</b>
body:
I think that using Aran'gar and Osan'gar as proof that channeling is linked to the soul is sort of a bad idea: they weren't exactly reborn, were they?  People who are reborn have no knowledge of the past lives (with certain exceptions) and are reborn as infants: Aran'gar and Osan'gar came into being in previously occupied, adult bodies with their memories and personalities intact.  If the Dark One was able to transpose their minds onto two new bodies, it makes sense that he would transpose their channeling abilities to, without regard to the genetic makeup of the two bodies.


created: 2005-05-17 10:43:05
subject: <b>Don't think he'll lose his hand...</b>
body:
For one...Rand A'Thor...is not Tam A'thor's son...ONLY ADOPTED...Rand's Father was Janduin of the Goshein Aeil...and his mother was the Queen of Andor that ran away from her husband and became Shae of the Maidens of the Spear and later Rand was Born on the Slopes of Dragonmount!


created: 2005-11-04 20:20:41
subject: <b>RIGHT</b>
body:
Congrats <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded for life to amber <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-01 18:20:04
subject: <b>Great Idea!</b>
body:
Yes, congrats! You might not have gotten the whodunnit part right, but you were for a long while in the doghouse about this. Now that Semirhage has come along and offed Rand's hand, I'm sure you are like Clairvoyant Extrordinaire. Make more predictions, and in fact, if you want my email, feel welcome to predict the next lotto!


created: 2006-05-06 09:15:22
subject: <b>Rand and His One Hand - the next step</b>
body:
Okay,<br />I posted a theory which (miracously!) got published in 2001 (long time reader / ocassional poster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Its under the heading Rand and His One Hand.<br /><br />Foolishly I suggested that Rand losing his hand had been foreshadowed since Eye of The World when Moiraine explained some of the history of Aridhol.<br /><br />I stuck to the premise that Aridhol/Shadar Logoth would play a critical role in the series - I think this point is well proven.<br /><br />Now, to amend my theory that Padan Fain would be the one to cut off Rand's hand (clearly it was not), I want to draw attention to the fact that Prince Cerra, Thorin's son came from Manetheren to broker a peace with Aridhol, had his hand cut off in response to the peace offer, and then left Shadar Logoth to go to the Boderlands, and meets a woman there that leads to his own downfall.<br /><br />Now this is where I'm going to try to connect some points, and theorize what will happen next ....<br /><br />Point one: Rand comes to the Seanchan with an offer of peace/alliance and loses his hand in the process. The Seanchan are very similar to the citizens of Aridhol - they have been corrupted from the inside (for Mordeth read Semirhage) and this is leading to their downfall.<br /><br />Point two: A Memory of Light is the last book in the series. Our boy Rand is entering his final moves. As a long time reader of this series, I can not imagine RJ is going to have Rand bouncing across the continent tying up the myriad of storylines. Mat and Perrin will fufil this function, Elayne, Avi, Egwene and Nyna will also contribute, and RJ has stated that there is a potential for some burning questions never to be answered (my personal favourite is that he will never, repeat never, reveal who killed Asmodean - it amuses him too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />Anyway, I reckon Rand is heading to the Borderlands - Malkier to be precise (after the Prince Cerra story, Moiraine went on about the seven towers and its fate). The Prince Cerra story just states that there he meets a woman who will lead to his downfall - the same is going to happen to Rand.<br /><br />From Day One Rand's attitude to woman has caused him a lot of angst and nearly killed him on various occasions. The sheepherder (in my opinion) is set for a meeting with Alivia (prophecised role in final countdown by Min). I'm a personal believer in the whole Rand/Moridin doing a Luc/Isam style transfer and believe that Alivia will beintegral to this (check out Red Ear Evets post for a much better explanation).<br /><br />I would like to point out that this is a theory (i.e. guesswork / gut feeling/ stab in the dark) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So please remember - i'm linking Prince Cerra because he was Thorin's son - a direct allegory to the surname al'Thor. For those who argue this point - no where is it stated that Prince Cerra was Thorin's blood son  - he may have been adopted (a la Rand) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. The point being - in my connection I believe there is foreshadowing from the Manetheren story. I feel its detail is out of place at that point in the overall series (EoTW) and it screamed out to me that Prince Cerra and Rand are part of the same cycle.<br /><br />So to sum up:<br />Rand is off to the Borderlands - Malkier to be precise<br />There he meets a woman whjo will contribute to his downfall - Alivia<br /><br />And to all those who doubted me - I was right!!!!! Rand lost a hand (rubs hands in self-satisfactory way)<br /><br />I look forward to the criticism!!!


created: 2006-05-11 17:08:44
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
I have imbarked on a quest to post a comment on theorys that where prove wrong by RJ youres is such a one<br /><br />yes rand did lose his hand but it was by Semirhage<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-08 08:17:41
subject: <b>&quot;Meeting Alivia?&quot;</b>
body:
Uhhhh... sorry to break this to ya man, but Alivia has been with Rand since the cleansing. She dueled Cyndane remember? I don't see a real problem with the rest of your changes, he just won't need to &quot;meet&quot; Alivia. And imho this theory was only proved partially wrong. He did lose a hand(How could anyone think he wouldn't? I always to that for granted). Anyway, not a bad theory really.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-11-13 15:17:02
subject: <b>Great Job</b>
body:
Yeah, great job on that prediction, while I believed that someone would lose a hand, because of the statement that, I'm paraphrasing here, &quot;Being Stilled cannot be healed, it is as impossible as to regrow a hand, or to heal death.&quot;<br />So yes, I also think that Rand will somehow get his hand back, maybe not literally, but in some manner, gain something resembling a hand, even if it's someone else who follows him around and picks things up for him.


created: 2001-06-12 15:15:54
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Just one question, where it's said that Rand remembers beeing LTT? In fact he wouldn't even be only LTT but the DRAGON. Maybe I slipped over something but I just finished tDR and when he fights Ishi he's in Telaranrhiod  and doesn't remember beeing LTT? Or even before that he meets Perrin an Egwene in Tel. and he is the normal Rand, not LTT or even the Dragon. The Dragon would look different from LTT and Rand, it'd be the pure Essenence of his Soul.<br />(Birgitte looked different in every life but the Birgitte of Tel. looks so birgittelike that everybody who sees her would just think she's Birgitte)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 20:50:06
subject: <b>Olver and Min</b>
body:
Heh, I want to see Min read Olver. I think that would most definately be interesting! I wonder what images float about the boy.


created: 2001-06-12 21:17:19
subject: <b>Response to Wotan</b>
body:
First of all, LTT and the Dragon are one and the same.  The Dragon is a title of LTT's, just like &quot;lord of the sun&quot; (or whatever it is).<br /><br />Rand became LTT in Tel'aran'rhiod many times, especially later in the book series.  Are you re-reading or reading for the first time?  Because, and no offense, if this is the first time you are reading and you are only finishing up book three you really shouldn't be passing judgment on theories.<br /><br />Also, Birgitte always looks different, but it is stated that Gaidal Cain is ALWAYS butt-ugly, no matter what.  Birgitte is always a good archer and whenever she uses a different weapon more than a couple times it proves to be her downfall.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 21:59:06
subject: <b>Response to Your.Master</b>
body:
I'm just rereading for the 3rd time so I think I know enough about WOT to write comments and so I say:<br />1) The Dragon and LTT a different, LTT was an incarnation of the Dragon, the Dragon is the Soul that fights the DO at the end of every Age (This is the way I meant it).<br />So if Rand would be dead and you would meet Rand's soul in Tel he'd look like the Dragon not like LTT or Rand but the pure Dragon. (As the pure Birgitte)<br />2) Rand became LTT in Tel. when LTT was already in his head and he became also the third Destroyer in this Dreams. <br />3) I don't say Olver is not Gaidal Cain but I say that if Olver the boy would dream himself in Tel. he would look like Olver unless he wanted to look otherwise. And he could only look like G.C. if knew how he looked t.m. having his memories. But there's never a hint that O. expierences the same as Rand(talking to the dead in your head) and you  have to keep in mind the you are consciously in Tel. thus it can't be some part of him remembering it.<br />4) It's said that only dead Heros are summoned by the horn, so it just doesn't  make sense that Olver the boy would dream himself in Tel. to be summoned by the Horn.<br /><br />You see, it just doesn't make much sense. If you want prove is Olver G.C. this just won't suffice to explain is presence in Falme.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 22:32:50
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
I did not say that Olver remembers being Gaidal Cain.  I said that the &quot;part of Olver&quot; that remembers being Gaidal Cain dreamed himself in.  In very much the same way that Rand does not remember being Lews Therin, there is a part of him that is Lews Therin and remembers being such.  Just wanted to clear that up.<br /><br />Just hold on...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-13 07:46:30
subject: <b>Two things</b>
body:
First of all, that viewing doesn't say that Olver is Gaidal Cain.  All it says is that somewhere there is a much younger person who is Gaidal Cain.  That much younger person could be a two year old.  So all that quote tells us is that Gaidal Cain has been spun out of TAR into the world somewhere, which we already knew.  Whoop-de-doo.  Secondly, an interesting note.  In the glossary to FoH it says about Gaidal Cain that he was &quot;as handsom as she was beautiful,&quot; with the she being Birgitte of course.  Hmmmm, odd that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 09:29:55
subject: <b>I think Olver is Gaidal</b>
body:
Birgitte tells us when we first find out that Gaidal has left the world of dreams that he is either an infant or a small boy.  This implies that he existed for a time in both Rand's world and the world of dreams.  When the heroes are called by the Horn, they bring a bit of Tel'aran'rhiod with them.  They are not bound by the same laws of physics as the world.  If Gaidal and his new incarnation can exist in both worlds, it is possible that Gaidal's being in a pocket of Tel'aran'rhiod in the real world would not put too much more stress on the shared soul.  <br />     As to why I think Olver is Gaidal, I think he exists in the books for more reason than to just give Mat's since of responsibility something to look after.  Plus, he seems to be picking up skills all over the place.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />     On a final note, Min's vision doesn't tell us that Olver is Gaidal Cain.  What it does tell us is that Birgitte remains tied to both the Wheel and Gaidal.  Maybe its just the romantic in me but I'm glad Birgitte won't have to cry forever.


created: 2001-06-13 12:07:45
subject: <b>Hey Locksmith</b>
body:
All that that quote implies is that Birgitte has no idea how much time has passed in the real world.  It could be 5 years for all she knows.  But WE know how long it's been.  And I agree with you about min's viewing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 19:12:03
subject: <b>Nonononono.</b>
body:
I have some problems.  First, with the initial theory:<br /><br />&quot;...she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.&quot;<br /><br />Okay, so here's the deal.  There is no doubt that Gaidal has been reborn.  No doubt.  And Brigitte hasn't yet, and so she is her normal, heroic age.  Gaidal is reborn as a baby.  While this quote can be referring to Olver, all it really refers to is the person that Gaidal was reborn as, do you get where I'm coming from?  Good.<br /><br />Next, to tear up the blackboard.  <br /><br />Rand does remember being Lews Therin.<br />Lews Therin is not the Dragon, he is an incarnation.<br /><br />&quot;Rand became LTT in Tel. when LTT was already in his head and he became also the third Destroyer in this Dreams.&quot;<br />This is completely strange.  All that happened with Rand in T'A'R is that Rahvin attempted to see him as Lews in tar, but that's all.  Because Rand fought it off.  The whole thing is that if Rand were ever to be taken over by Lews (The source, the fighting voice, Lanfear kidnapping him, or being turned into his image) then Rand and Lews's places are reversed.  He never was the third destroyer.<br />


created: 2001-06-14 14:28:35
subject: <b>Um, Question???</b>
body:
Where is the Horn of Valere right now????  I kinda lost track of it and I don't have my books with me.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 15:50:50
subject: <b>My Opinion</b>
body:
Alright, I believe that Olver is Gaidal Cain. First of all, like it was said before, Birgitte said that Cain is out there as an infant of even a small boy. When we first meet Olver Mat guess's his age as six, but Olver says he is nine. Secondly, in all of Cain's past lives he is very ugly. When we meet Olver Mat gives a description of him as have a too wide mouth, big nose, and ears that are too big and stick out making him an ugly one. And, for the one thing I haven't heard anyone talk about, Birgitte says that Cain is always too brave for his own good and needs her there to keep him out of trouble or he will die. If you will remember Olver is about to die when we first see him, however Mat shows up to save him. I think that Mat has taken the temporary place of Birgitte in keeping Olver out of trouble (as we see in the books after as well) and when Birgitte meets Olver she will know who he is and Mat's job will be done. That is my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br />And one more thing, I believe that the Horn is still in the White Tower.<br /><br /><br /><br />Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-14 18:23:34
subject: <b>I'm referring to PoD</b>
body:
In Path of Daggers Rand dreams that he has the face of LTT and a third Person yet unkown. (I don't know if they took in Tel. but it's still this part thing)  And all i wanted to express that the situation of remembering an earlier incarnation is extremly rare and i don't believerthat Olver could dream himself in Tel. as Gaidal Cain (He isn't even a dreamer).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 00:55:06
subject: <b>Responses to Johan and Wotan...</b>
body:
First, to Johan.  While I realize that it has not been specifically mentioned that Olver is indeed Cain(otherwise this debate would be even more pointless <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> ), who else could it possibly be?  We know that Jordan does nothing without purpose, NOTHING, and knowing this, what purpose does Olver serve if not to be Cain?  I understand that there is no conclusive evidence, but this is one of those cases that until proven otherwise(see Taimandred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ), it almost has to be accepted on faith and the evidence presented thus far.<br /><br />     Now, to Wotan's comment about very few cases remembering who they were.  True, Rand is the only instance we have of a person remembering an earlier incarnation of themself so far, but at the same time how many heroes do we know of who have been reborn?  Lews Therin and Gaidal Cain, unless I missed something, and I am always open to corrections if I am wrong.  So if Rand remembers being LTT, and we have no other cases to refer to, it is possible that they will all remember being the heroes in one way or another.<br /><br />     Thank you for letting me sound off again, and I always appreciate a good debate, so I ask this:  Does anyone have any conclusive proof that Olver is NOT Cain that is stronger than the evidence pointing in that direction?  I would love to be wrong just once in my life <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Hold on guys, almost there... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Joar Addam


created: 2001-06-15 05:20:54
subject: <b>Rand is clearly MAD!</b>
body:
There is no part of Rand that can remember beeing LTT, cause RAnd is clearly MAD! It is the taint. Why else would LTT be quite for - what? 18 years? - just to come inside Rand's head and sob bout Illyena? Cadsuane also says that most mendo hear voices, telling them what to do. Some ppl say that the taint opens ..something.. that 'helpes'/'makes' them talk to 'the preson they were before', but I cannot agree that EVERY man who can channel is somebody reborn...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 07:52:18
subject: <b>Purpose for Olver</b>
body:
You want a purpose for Olver if he's not Cain?  Here's a few.<br /><br />A, He is the reason Mat has to stay in Ebou Dar.  If Olver wasn't missing he would have gone to the kin's farm and been in Caemlyn by now.  But because he went looking for him he broke his leg, stayed in Ebou Dar, and met the Duaghter o the Nine Moons.  That in itself is plenty of purpose for Olver.<br /><br />B, While watching Olver ride Wind, Mat sees the darkfriend who tried to kill him and Rand in the eye of the world.  Then he follows her, and finds Jaicham's house where he is told to watch it.  From there he follows that one member of the knitting circle to the stash of angreal, thus finding the bowl of winds.  If Olver wasn't riding you think that wouldn't have happened?<br /><br />C, Olver is intent on winning the game of snakes and foxes.  Olver will play it until he figures out how to win or Mat realizes what he has to do to beat the foxes, and then he or someone else will be able to rescue Moiraine.<br /><br />Do you disagree with anything here?  So far Olver has served two major purposes(getting Mat w/ the DotNM and helping find the bowl of the winds) and will soon start a series of events that will lead to Moiraine's rescue.  Now, that's plenty of reason for Olver to be in the story without being Cain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 08:58:34
subject: <b>No way!</b>
body:
Hi!<br /><br />OK - Olver cannot be Gaidal Cain.<br /><br />1: The timing is wrong: GC was in T'AR after the Horn was blown<br />2: We get the definite impression that stealing bodies is *bad*<br />3: There is no indication that time travkle backwards in T'AR<br />4: Mins viewing is explained by the fact that sometimes GC is older than <br />           Birgette, and sometimes younger, but they are always the same <br />           person. In other words, the Wheel has linked them.<br />5: Birgette herself tells u that, should she be spun out you would find her a <br />           babe - not a young girl, but a baby.<br />6: Birgettes comment that GC could be a young child is because she doen't <br />           know how much real time has passed sine she last saw him.<br /><br />Anything else?<br /><br />EJL


created: 2001-06-15 11:09:05
subject: <b>Further responses</b>
body:
All of you(Vercingetorix, Rinoa and Tenaka) make very solid points in favor of Olver not being Cain.  I do however disagree with you all on several of the points you made.<br /><br />First of all, with regards to remaining in Ebou Dar to meet the Daughter chick, and finding the bowl of the winds(Verc. A &amp; B), I believe you are giving Olver credit for something that has been in effect for so many books now I can't even remember...Mat's luck.  It is just possible that Olver is Cain reborn, and Mat's luck has been in effect in full force, both to fulfill his destiny(Daughter chick again) and to help those meddling pains in the ass find the Bowl.<br /><br />Second, there is no proof that Mat will be the one to rescue Moiraine(Verc. C, although I believe that it is likely), and even if there was, Mat already knows how to beat them...you have to cheat.<br /><br />In response to Rinoa, if Rand is just mad and hearing voices, then why has he learned to do things with the power that he did not know before LTT appeared?  And as for sobbing about Illyena(? spelling), we already know that was her real name(prologue to EOTW).  How would Rand know that?  Could it be that, oh, I don't know, maybeeee...he has a dead man's consciousness dwelling in his head?  Just a thought...<br /><br />Finally, for Tenaka, I will do a numbered list...<br /><br />1 &amp; 6) With regards to the timing issue, we all know that time in TWOD is all messed up, and no one knows exactly how much time passes, or even if it stays constant from minute to minute.  Please see my time travel reference in the original post to see that even real time can(theoretically) lead to an individual existing in two places at once.  Also, when Dreaming in T'AR, we find out that one hour could be several hours(I forget the number given), so using this ratio, why can't two years(Cain's appearance in Falme) be several years in the real world?<br /><br />2) I didn't say Cain steals his body, I said Cain could have been spun out into a living being after birth.  What I did say is that as Rand on some level remembers being LTT, Olver might remember being Cain.  If he doesn't, maybe Cain does not realize who he was either.  Remember, Rand did not start hearing LTT until after he started channeling, and I believe after he proclaimed himself(I could be mistaken here).<br /><br />3) I don't remember ever saying time traveled backward.  You must be thinking of someone else <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />4) This is the only point I might be wrong on, but I don't remember Birgitte ever saying Cain was sometimes younger.  I remember it being along the lines of Cain is always older, so when she cannot find him in T'AR she knows she will be reborn soon as well.  If there is a page number or quote you have to support this, I'll concede the point.<br /><br />5) Provided she says the word &quot;babe&quot;(again, a page # reference would help), this debunks only one of the three possible explanations I offered up, but the other two are still solid in the face of your points. <br /><br />Good form everyone, but nothing STRONGER than Min's viewing and the other circumstantial evidence yet.  Keep trying though.<br /><br />Hang on just a second longer...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Joar Addam<br />


created: 2001-06-15 11:55:30
subject: <b>To Joar Addam</b>
body:
Maybe I can hold a against you a little longer so here are my points:<br /><br />1) You are right about the time in Tel. it sometimes goes faster and slower than in the real world. But both stay always synchron. Elsewhile you must be able to timetravel by using Tel.. You'd only have to step in it bodily, than open a gate from time to time and look out what time is it.<br />It's much alike in the ways, the time floats faster in the ways, but it's still synchron to the real world. You could use a formula to calculate how much time has passed in the ways and say now, is that time in the ways. The only difference is that the time Tel. is nonlinear. The only slip there still is that the time for inhabitants in Tel. is different to visitors but I doubt that.<br />2)<br />I agree that heros spun out by the wheel remember some hint of their earlier lifes but this is not very much. For example Mat spoke the old tongue already in TEoTW<br />and Egwene almost understands. But it's never mentioned that they are taken over by their ancestors. <br />I agree also that Rand can hear LTT because of his taint sickness, but there we have a reason why he is set free.<br />Another point I want to add is that when you enter Tel. you are always at the same mental condition as in the Real World thus it seems unlik<br />unlikely to me that happens to Olver.<br />4) I think Min said that her life was sometimes linked to a man much older than Birgittes and sometimes younger. But i have not quote and i may be wrong but if 2 remember this it might be right.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 15:58:37
subject: <b>funny...</b>
body:
I was thinking these same lines of thoughts a few days ago... hmmm<br /><br /><br />But i was reading the comments and had to go leave through my battered copy of th tGH.<br /><br />Cain is there, yes, every hero is there but LTT, who hawking says rand is (as we all know by now)<br /><br />Hold that thought - this is a far stretch, but it makes some sense to me - someone (forgot who) mentioned that cain could be spun INTO oliver, as in after oliver was born, which would also explain why LTT only showed at a certain point in rands life.<br /><br />And i belive it's the real LTT, not some figment, cause it does know things, like at the end of LoC, when LTT helps rand break the sheild and get out, or when LTT helps rand learn new tricks. Balefire and such.<br /><br />Bridgette gets ripped out of Tel, not spun out like other times. But the wheel never does anything on accident. Maybe that was the way it decided to bring her into the world this time, because it needed that hero NOW, not in 18 years or something - she's proven her worth, saving elayne. But as bridgette says her and cain are ALWAYS together when the wheel spins her out - forget where on what exactly but something close to 'cain is gone, he has been spun out of the wheel. It will soon be time for me to go too, yadda yadda yadda, we are always together' something like that (if anyone can pull that quote for me, would be much appreciated.)<br /><br />So the wheel knew it would need bridgette  very soon, with all her memories intact, and all her skill availible right then. so it got her ripped out of tel. and hence it spun cain out where he was needed, into an young boy that so that he could still have a chance to meet bridgette. i mean she's only, what, 18? 20? something like that? 12 years isnt to big of a stretch for wheel bound true love. <br /><br />Here's the clincher for my argument - Wotan said that when you enter tel, you are always in the same mental condition as in the real world.<br /><br />Well he also (no offenece)  contridicted his statement about oliver being cain and dreaming himself into tel as cain with his earlier statement, the hero's remember some of themselfs.<br /><br />My point - rand remembers the hero's very well when they are summoned to the horn - &quot;But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different that he did not recognize them as names at all...&quot;(660, paperback by tor of tgh) Whats to say Oliver isn't remembering more of cain when he is asleep? who knows when these memories could pop up, we only have two hero's to observe - a reborn LTT, dragon, whatever (LTT i think is bound, and is the dragon, because hawking calls him lewis, not that the dragon is tied to the wheel)and a bridgette, who unfortunatly has all her memories and so doesn't make for a good case study.<br /><br /><br />i babled on. i apologize. i think i have a few more thoughts floating up in my head - if i get them, i'll post them<br /><br />oh..<br /><br />About time in tel, the inhabinants do know the difference, sorta - they can tell time, because bridgette states that it is many days, or only scant hours since she last saw elayne, when it was often at regular intervals (i.e. every night)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Calis, Lover of many<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Spettio - One and True Love &quot;Moo&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Rhapsody - Sinfilled Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Hollie - Forbbiden Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> B.Alicia - Emotional Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Clover - Love in Waiting<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Catriona - Princess Bride Love</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 06:46:43
subject: <b>Further thoughts down the road...</b>
body:
Just letting ya know that I have written a multi-pack theory that include responses to 3 or 4 theories total. Yours happens to be among them. I hope it gets posted so you can see some of my answers to your statements.<br /><br />   By the way with all the talk of wormholes I think you may have inadvertently implied backwards travel of time. Just pointing that out because I thought that you'd mentioned it breifly with out elaborating on that one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 01:24:08
subject: <b>Rand/LTT</b>
body:
About Rand having LTT's consciousness in his head, more of a question than a comment:<br />Either Elayne or Egwene (I forget which) at the Tower can weave things that she hasn't yet been taught because she sort of 'remembers' them. I always thought that this was sort of like what Rand did, and was just one of those things that strong channelers could do intuitively-- sort of like how really good math students can figure out a way to solve a problem without knowing the formal equation. So, while those who say it's the Taint have a point (that LTT gets stronger as time goes on/Rand gets more insane, although I'm not sure how crazy he really is), and those who say that it's because Rand's the Dragon and he's special have a point (although where was LTT when Rand was doting on Lanfear? *Kill them kill them all..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />, that doesn't really explain how someone who doesn't channel saidin and who isn't the Dragon can do about the same thing. So, for those people (since I've always thought Cads was like Moir except on even more of a need-to-know level), how do the girls do it?<br /><br />That was pretty confusing, sorry.


created: 2001-06-17 07:25:42
subject: <b>My Opinion</b>
body:
I think that only in Rand there are several consciosnesses (sp?) awake, and that is a specific damage done by the taint or maybe other infulences. The other like Nyn., Egw. Mat etc. remember something from their earlier lifes or even ancesctors by the old blood; &quot;The old blood sings&quot;.<br />If they would be affected by the taint, the dead might also speak in their heads but none of them will be. We had so far no hint that someone who couldn't channel was effected by this and no hint that something of their past manifested in Tel..<br />And it seems even more unlikely to me that Olver just slept in the Moment the horn was used, and then GC. manifested in Tel. or called by the Horn. <br />Another argument is that GC. still appears in Tel. after the Horn was blown so it isn't a horn specific effect. And i think there's a quote from Birgitte where she says &quot;.. and when he is gone, i know i will be reborn soon&quot; or something like that. So GC isn't reborn until he disappears from Tel. and that is some time after the horn was blown.<br />The only possibilty for Olver being GC would be if the soul went in him later.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-18 08:47:49
subject:
<b>One last response before I try to unearth other mysteries <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Lord Savaunt, I was not using the wormholes to suggest that time travels backwards at any given point in T'AR, as you and some of the others had suggested.  I was merely using the wormhole theory for time travel to illustrate that where there are two points where time is not in synch(read as, time is not moving the same speed nor is it at the same point in time), it is possible due to the flux in time that a being could exist in two seperate locales and times simultaneously.  <br /><br />Wotan, again my greatest rival. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  You make some valid points, but let me address them one last time.<br /><br />1) As stated earlier, time does not flow backwards, only forwards.  The speed of time in T'AR is not a constant however, so a formula involving constants is not possible to determine the time difference.  Now, knowing that we cannot accurately measure the amount of T'AR time that Cain has been missing, it is possible that it has been <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />10 years, as it has been at least 2 years in the real world.  There is nothing saying it is not possible.(reasonable doubt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />2)  Why would Mat and Egwene and the rest be taken over by their ancestors?  The only people spun out by the wheel over and over again are the Heroes as far as we know.  We have not seen Joe the blacksmith reborn yet, have we?  The Heroes of the Horn seem to be a special case, and until proven otherwise we have to assume that they will all be similar cases to Rand/LTT.  Besides, having borrowed from every mythology/religion known to man, it would not surprise me if the Heroes had a certain Buddhist quality to them, where in there celestial form they remember all of their lives, and in their present incarnation remember bits and pieces of who they might have been.<br /><br />3)  You did not have a 3. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />4)  Yes, the quote is right.  Trust me.  I mean that.  Read it just now.  Just double checked it.  Yep, that sure was a Jordan-esque proof quote if I have ever seen one. Yessiree bob.<br /><br /><br />Hold on to the grass, cling to life, cling to hope <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Joar Addam<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-18 21:45:03
subject: <b>My not so humble opinion</b>
body:
I have always thought that Olver and Gaidal Cain are one and the same, and I will agree with anything that supports my theories (isn't this true with all of us). There is just too much the same between the two for us to disregard it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*********************************************<br />http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/library/b/e/beccalynn/beccalynn.html <br /><br />'I like hippy chicks, he said, they're not so damned dumb. They don't sing like Ethel Merman, they don't imitate nuns. They comb their ha</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 03:57:32
subject: <b>Cain and time in T'A'R</b>
body:
to joar addam <br /><br />one problem with you're number one retort - Cain had been seen, by nyn i belive, tho it may have been elayne, in T'A'R.<br /><br />Cain chides bridgette for helping them, and continues to refuse to help them all while they are traviling with the circus. Not that i remember what book thats in but yeah...<br /><br />But this is why i belive olver may be dreaming himself as cain into ter<br /><br />and side, RJ is only human *gasp* and may have made a mistake, or has something else up his sleve for oliver.<br /><br /><br />As for cain showing up when the horn was called, i now have a theory as to why it could still be olver, even tho he'd be something like 6-8<br /><br />The Hero's are called to the horn - they must come. So cains comes, as the DREAM CAIN - which is like all the heros where - Only LTT doesn't show up, the reason being that HE IS ALREADY THERE. Rand is LTT, so hawking states, and he is already at the horn - so why should he show up? Cain however - if he is in olver, was not there when the horn was played, so he had to come - in dream form<br /><br />hmm, that kinda works<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Calis, Lover of many<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Spettio - One and True Love &quot;Moo&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Rhapsody - Sinfilled Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Hollie - Forbbiden Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> B.Alicia - Emotional Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Clover - Love in Waiting<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Catriona - Princess Bride Love</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 15:49:31
subject: <b>The soul is not linear.</b>
body:
The soul, spirits and whatever you want to call them, are not boiund to linear time as we know it. It is just to theorize that when one is to die, the soul can travel back to the haoppiest moments in one's life (heaven) or the worst (hell). It would stand to reason that if GC were already reborn, the Horn could call him back into the world in one of two ways; The first is to draw the Heroes from a time when they were not reborn in the present time. The second is to draw the reborn soul from the body of the sleeper (which would explain neatly what happens when one is in a coma). I still prefer the calling from a previous time period.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ptolomaeus<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Defender of Innocents<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Conservor of Useless Knowlege<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />CompTIA A+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Network+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Security+ Certified Professional<br />Microsoft Certified Professional <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 21:32:28
subject: <b>reasons for olver being Gaidal</b>
body:
Where in the books does it say that when the hero of the horn is spun out, it is into a newborn baby? LTT didn't appear inside of rand until much later in his life. Therefor, it is possible that Olver just resently received Cains &quot;soul&quot; (What else do you call it?) This could have been caused by some incident we havn't heard of, or it could simply be the pull of Ta'veren on things (just like every other unexplainable phenomenon in this book, i hoenstly beleived Jordan created the Ta'veren idea just so he could have an excuse to put in unexplainable coincidences) If olver is Cain, it would explain why he is so mature. Also, his treatment of women is VERY similar to Birgette's treatment of men.


created: 2001-06-20 09:06:03
subject: <b>Time</b>
body:
I am sure that Bridgette says/thinks somewhere something like&quot;Gaidal had disappeared.....perhaps he had already been born... time does not always flow in Tel as in the real world....he may be out there as a young child (siad to Elayne)&quot; I think this happened just after she was ripped out. It certainly confirms Cain is reborn and makes it Almost certain he is Olver. Also their personalities: both liked dancing and pubs etc. and Cain was a ladies man (his charm makes up for his ugliness, just as Olver's does) TBH, why is anyone questioning an issue that is dead and buried (no offence meant) Olver=Cain. Taim is not Demandred. Moridin is Ishy. Now who is Mesaana?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 15:21:07
subject: <b>hey mjasgar</b>
body:
Obviously it is not completely obvious because people are arguing that olver does not equal gaidal cain.  Also, up until Winter's Heart, a TON of people were saying Taim is Demandred, which clearly he isn't now.  I was one who said Taim wasn't Demandred originally, by the way.  ANyway, just because Birgitte says she can feel Gaidal out there as an infant or a young boy does not mean it's Olver.  Sure, it means that Gaidal is reborn, but it does NOT mean that he is Olver.  There are too many problems with it for it to be obvious.  As far as similarities, Taim and Demandred have a ton of similarities, but they are clearly not the same person, so similarities means jack.  There are too many problems with Gaidal equals Olver for it to be accepted as fact by everyone.  I for one refuse to believe it because it doesn't make sense.  How could a 9 year old boy have the soul of someone we saw who hadn't been reborn yet less than two years ago?  And the soul does come into the body at birth(if not before).  We know this because of what Lanfear said.  She said it would have been so much easier if she had found Rand just after he was born; she would have known who was behind those eyes immediately.  That is what she said(more or less).  So until someone provides conclusive unrefutable evidence that Gaidal Cain could possibly be in Olver's body(everything is pure speculation as of now) I will say he sin't and stick to my guns, and continue arguing what you ocnsider a foregone conclusion.  And Moridin is Ishy, yes.  As for Mesaana, my guess is probably Danelle, but I am not entirely sure of that.  I really haven't given it all that much thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 09:04:05
subject: <b>BUT....</b>
body:
..... time flows differently in Tel. Cain could easily have been born before his ' relative' recent appearance in Tel. Basiclly,  until I get proof otherwise Olver IS Cain. You are obviously entitled to be wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 13:29:30
subject: <b>Just something to add</b>
body:
I can't remember if it was one of the people who saw Cain in Tel or if it was<br />Rands POV when the Horn was blown.  I remember them seeing him guide<br />his horse with his Knees, hinting that he is a good rider.  Oliver spends <br />a lot of time with horses... Just one more connection.   <br /><br />Also just to add to the why Demodred is not Taim and why Taim is doing what he is.<br />That being he is certainly not a &quot;good guy&quot;.  There were two stories told by the Black<br />Sisters that were captured and questioned.  (When Elayne and Nynaeve are trying to<br />decide if they should go to Tanchico).  One story related to Tanchico the other to<br />Taim.  Something along the lines of them using him.  Maybe he is one 13 could have <br />been used on.  Though I tend to think he is doing everything by his own free will.  Maybe<br />he was convinced to turn then or maybe given instructions on what he was supose to do.  <br />Some of the Black Ajah's plans could have changed after Rand held Callandor.<br /><br />Oh yeah does anyone have any ideas on why when Rand thinks about Mat a face blurs his vision.<br />Or when Mat thinks of Rand the same thing happens.  I can't recall if this happens to Perrin.<br />Ta'veren perhaps?<br />


created: 2001-06-30 15:29:22
subject: <b>Re-Read tEotW</b>
body:
When Thom, Rand and Mat are in Whitebridge, they have a discussion about the dead.   Thom says something to the effect of &quot;The dead can enters bodies on the brink of the death&quot;. (Unfortunetly my copy of tEotW is being held hostage by my ex, so I can't give you the pages or the exact quote.) <br /><br />HENCE, if Olver was hurt by the the Aiel who killed his parents Cain's soul could have came in AFTER Olver was born.<br /><br />Very easy was to solve the problem wouldn't you say? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 10:36:18
subject: <b>My head hurts</b>
body:
First of all, in response to Olver being Cain based on his affection for horses, this really doesn't narrow anything down. Alot of characters like horses in the series. In fact, Siuan and the Sea Folk are the only ones who seem to have any dislike of them.<br /><br />As for time flow in Tel'aran'rhiod, I agree with the person who said that it is still relative to time in the real world. Olver was born a good 5 years before we even heard of Gaidal Cain.<br /><br />And just because Lews Therrin wasn't speaking to Rand since birth does not mean he suddenly was spun into Rand. Rand has been the Dragon Reborn since he was born on the slopes of Dragonmount.<br /><br />Min's viewing suggests that Birgitte has lived many lives, always connected to a man who was sometimes older, sometimes younger then she was.<br /><br />And just because RJ introduces a character of significance doesn't suggest that they are a hero reborn. If that was the case, which hero is Thom, Moiraine, Lan, Nynaeve, Egwene, Perrin, Mat,...the list goes on and on.<br /><br />As for Thom's quote saying the dead can enter a body on the edge of death, you'll have to give me an exact quote to convince me.<br /><br />Olver getting into trouble does not mean he's Cain either. Alot of characters seem to leap into trouble with their eyes closed. Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are some, and Mat seems prone to doing it himself.<br /><br />As someone else stated, just because there are similarities does not suggest a solid fact.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And for those grasping at straws to prove that Cain=Olver, do you find it odd that Perrin saw Gaidal Cain at the Tower of Ghenji and Olver likes the game Snakes and Foxes? Surely he has to be Cain now!


created: 2002-01-09 20:48:53
subject: <b>The Good the bad and the Olvar</b>
body:
there is something else to support your claim<br /><br /><br />when mat leaves Aludra in WH he looks at olvar and thinks that he will grow up to be an non handsome man<br /><br />that fits the gaidal cain outline<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> SURAVYE NINTO MANSHIMA TAISH'ITE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> MNDE MUAGHDE AES SEDAI MISAIN YE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> May you find good hunting, and shes to bring you many cubs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Zedrick Al'Stone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-25 02:30:18
subject: <b>Oliver is not Cain</b>
body:
Oliver in the last book was shown to be a flirt with the ladies, and the type of kid that would be charming as an teen, and probaly be that way as andult. Cain (in the brief apprence in the books) seemed to be the typw of guy to follow the rules, and not to be a flirt.  Now I remember that Birgitte saying that when she normaly meets Cain again, after reborn, she hates him. Well from what I've seen of her in the books, she would love to hang out with Oliver when he is an adult. She likes to drink and have a good time and flirt, I'm thinking Cain didn't, or doesn't like that.


created: 2002-04-07 22:32:22
subject: <b>What Thom said and where</b>
body:
In an above response to this theory someone stated that Thom said something about this whole reborn thing.  In fact, while rereading the series I came across this exact thing and thought it might be something important that I hadn't noticed before.<br /><br />On page 278 EotW (paper back) Thom says, &quot;That is dangerous talk, stupid talk.  The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly.&quot;<br /><br />I cannot think of another place where it is stated that the dead can take a living body.  We all know of examples of where the forsaken are 'reborn' into the bodies of recently killed people.  This has happened numerous times, but if the dead can take over a living body, couldn't it be possible that the wheel did decide that some of the heros were needed sooner than later and spun out Gaidal into Olver in just that fashion. <br /><br />Just an idea <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-08 06:41:29
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
Ok. One quick thing. We know that pretty much nothing is said without some reason, for the most part, in WOT. Why would they talk so much about GC's age he would be, if it wouldn't matter in some way? They've talked about GC so much, that it really seems like they would indroduce him in some form, and what's the next closet way to do that? Other than horn blowing, and T'A'R, It's Olver.<br /><br />True, Olver DOES have a part, even if he's not GC. As mentioned earlier, he's served his purpose. Mainly, I'd like to say that he plays Snakes and Foxes SO MUCH, and the fire/iron/music thing gets mentioned enough to stick in your mind. Also: &quot;There is no way to win at Snakes and Foxes, unless you CHEAT&quot;. Huge lesson for Mat, right there, that he wouldn't have said outloud if not for Olver, and you can bet that he's gonna have to cheat the Finn's in order to do whatever he has to do to them (rescue Moraine... or whatever... that's another theory).<br /><br /><br />I could see it happening either way, whether he's GC or not. There's certainly evidence to support both. Personally, I think he is, but that's just an educated guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 00:37:19
subject: <b>parelel Universes and the wold of dreams</b>
body:
It seems robert jordan has taken the theores of paralel universes and has implied it to the world of dreams, so if anyone studing quntum phisics it might be easier to explain the world of dreams and the being reborn theores.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha&#180;man of the Black Tower<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Son of Jim Son of Bert<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Speaker of Wolves<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 11:37:16
subject: <b>*eyes cross*</b>
body:
Oh, so many different ideas and so much firm believing one way or another. I'm not sure on the matter, but I'd have to agree with whoever up there stated that all the Heroes were there, even Rand and the ONLY reason that LTT/The Dragon/Rand or whatever you want to call it, didn't get called by the Horn is because he was already there. There was no need for him to come forth. <br /><br />As for the '100s of names for each face' stuff. The reason he knew those names then is because they were called by the Horn, those called by the Horn recognize one another and that whould show why the Heroes recognized Rand. <br /><br />Now, Olver, the reason he can still be there... lets see, child Olver was not in Falme so when the horn was blown, Cain was pulled, not the child, because... well, how would a 6 year old run all the way there? <br /><br />Now, the other Heroes, how do we know that none of those are spun out yet? There are many of them, and surely they too would be needed soon with so much turmoil, and to make them old enough to be help, they would have to be spun out soon, very very soon, or already. So, if those people were spun out, they came to the call of the Horn and were recognized by their 'soul' 'their hero face' you could call it, the one that stays in T'A'R. <br /><br />Okay, if Mat, Perrin, anyone else that Rand actually KNOWS, is a spun out person, would he not have known their names? In all those names he knew when he saw the Heroes, if any of his friends were one of them, he would have heard those names right? After all, in Randland, there are very few 'repeat' names. You don't see five Perrins in the Two Rivers or, there isn't another guy named Rand living down in Mayene... most names are original. Rand didn't recognize his friends names in the names of the heroes he saw.<br /><br /><br />Okay now, I've not read the books in a while, but thats what I've gotten from reading the posts and what I remember so far.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-08-21 23:48:18
subject: <b>Olver as Gaidal Cain</b>
body:
Now, many people are saying that Olver is Gaidal Cain. I myself would like o think that but it just isn't likely.<br /><br />Many are saying that Gaidal Cain could have been weaved in after Olver was born, now that is probable, but them saying that the reason we see him in Tel'aran'rhoid was that Olver dreamed himself there, is wrong. Birgette said she felt his presence leave. so it couldn't have been Olver dreaming himself there.<br /><br />I think Jordan put Olver there to express the amount of loss Birgette expirienced in risking her life talking to elayne in Tel'aran'rhoid. every character can't have a fairytale happy ending, and i think Birgettes' is a sad one.


created: 2002-08-26 20:22:16
subject: <b>hmmm... perhaps?</b>
body:
I've always had this crazy thought that perhaps THIS is the age that ties Birgitte to the wheel, and which she is reliving NOW with all her previous memories because she was ripped from T'AR.<br /><br />If Birgitte only remembers Gaidal being older, but Min saw him as younger as well, perhaps this age ties Birgitte to the wheel and in it she is &quot;linked&quot; with Olver.  In the next age, Olver is respun as Gaidal and Birgitte gets reborn later as younger with a differnt name and meets him as the older man she remembers in all her memories.  In this way she would NOT associate Gaidal with Olver, but they could be one in the same.<br /><br />*blinks*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-15 15:47:44
subject: <b>So many theories, so little time....</b>
body:
I've read endless arguments on this Olver/Gaidal Cain thing, and I just have a few comments to add.  Since this is the first time I've ever posted, please forgive any redundancies; my head starts to ache worse that Egwene's after reading so many theories and messages.  This is taken from several of the comments on this theory; please don't ask me to go back and cite each one!<br /><br />First, let's just establish Olver's age.  It was driving me mad, having people say he's &quot;7 or 8&quot;, or &quot;8 to 10&quot;.  He's NINE!!  When we first meet him in the beginning of LoC, when Mat rescues him from being beat up by those nobles for sitting on one of those horses, Mat does indeed think he's 6; &quot;Mat had trouble telling, especially with Cairhienen children.&quot; This is after Olver says, &quot;I am not a little boy: I am nine.&quot;  (page 159 of my copy; chapter &quot;A Different Dance&quot; ).  It's been driving me nuts that a character everyone seems to want to talk to death isn't important enough to warrant getting a fix on his age, since it's such a huge argument in the Olver/Gaidal Cain theory.<br /><br />Next, the looks thing.  Yes, it may describe GC as being as handsome as Birgitte is beautiful, but remember legend isn't always as it's made out.  Remember the story Birgitte tells Elayne when she realizes an Accepted has bonded her?  (&quot;A New Name&quot;, in FoH). She tells a story about Barashelle and Anselan; Barashelle who bonded before she was AS, and forced to give the guy up and saddled with &quot;leather-faced, stone-stubborn&quot; Anselan.  Elayne remembers a story she read/heard about a woman named Barashelle &quot;doing some long, arduous service to earn Anselan's love&quot;.  Legends don't always tell the truth.  Besides, I think there are several times that old memories (Birgitte, Mat, etc) indicate that what the people of this age think (those without that knowledge) about certain personages aren't real at all.  Point being - the definition of Cain could be the truth, but it also might be simply a definition to fit what people in this Age think.  <br /><br />As for the &quot;does Min's viewing of a younger ugly man mean anything about Olver/GC?&quot; question, I have to say that I found another reference which may help those who say the younger uggo means Olver.  In FoH, &quot;Meetings&quot;, Birgitte says she thinks GC has been spun out.  On p.272 (my copy), &quot;Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break.  She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.&quot; This may mean that Birgitte has yet to be tied to a younger incarnation of Gaidal Cain, who may be Olver.<br /><br />My opinon about the Olver/Gaidal Cain thing?  It's an intriguing theory.  I don't think it's beyond belief, and I agree it would give the character of Olver a twist.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  I agree with another one of the posters that I don't want Birgitte to cry forever either, so I'd like for her to find Gaidal, whoever he may be.  Besides, he's been mentioned too many times for him not to turn up at some point - apart from the Horn, of course.


created: 2003-04-10 00:14:25
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
lmao i never even thought to connect olver with gaidal cain. right when i saw that i gasped audabl as the whole thing hit me i laughed aloud a great theory that i beleive 100% <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 14:01:06
subject: <b>i think...</b>
body:
well you see... i think the idea of the wheel spinnning them into bodies already born is good and all but i think it would put them into bodies that could and would be present at Tarmon Gai'dan. so taking this into account dont you think that oliver might be justa *little* too young to fight.<br /><br />post script-also robert jordan said that he was not


created: 2003-11-28 12:37:28
subject: <b>From the Mouth of the Creator</b>
body:
Unfortunately, Olver is not Gaidal Cain reborn. I ask Jordan this question when he was in Edmonton for a book signing. He said absolutely NOT. Wow, finaly an answer from him thats not RAFO!!!<br />Well, there you go. Sorry, but your theories wrong.


created: 2004-10-16 15:00:22
subject: <b>don't think so</b>
body:
Sorry but you're theory has way too many holes, and you're little insert of olver being the younger is just you're own opinion and to much of an assumption.  Also, Olver is too old to be reborn as Gaidal.  Think, Rand is LTT reborn but actually was born and raised,  as well as RJ has never mentioned this other way of being reborn into a body already in use for one of the heroes.  That way is the way of the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />&quot;Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 14:26:15
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
If Olver is Gaidal Cain, which I don't think he is, then he doesn't remember anything whatsoever of his previous life. Birgitte said countless times that whenever she was reborn, she knew NOTHING of being a Heroine of the Horn, and it was only while in T'A'R that she remembered all of her lives. Plus, she's losing her memories. What's the point of her losing hers if Olver is gaining his? I mean, really. The point is to undergo a FULL rebirth, which bears NO memories of ANY previous lives - as Birgitte states.


created: 2007-01-30 15:36:08
subject: <b>welll</b>
body:
somthing elseto consider<br />[im not sure weather or not it has already been said or not, i got alittlelazy and didnt read every response]<br /><br />but if i remember correctly <br />didn't Ms silver bow say herself that SOMETIMES she was older? which doesnt mean that the second younger uglie man was olver at all<br /><br />it could have just bee reinforcing that she has had way too many adventuresfor one person nd in thoselives she was tied to the same uglie guy, regardless of his age.<br /><br />but anyways thats my thought<br /><br />good idea though<br />heh<br />my last couple theorys haven't made the cut<br />so you must be doing something right =]<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shippo</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 15:42:12
subject: <b>Good...</b>
body:
One problem: theere were only six gholams made, and they seem to be conscient beings. Would YOU accept being trapped in a stasis box? I personally think gholams are too valuables to be in the hands of even the Forsaken. Shadar Haran is my first choice of the gholam's master<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 17:06:51
subject: <b>It's a good idea...</b>
body:
The problem is how did Sammy gain control of the bloody thing to begin with. Any time a gholam gets near a person who can channel they want to kill them. I guess this is a real RAFO thing here.


created: 2001-06-20 18:32:14
subject: <b>The Gholam's bloody agenda...</b>
body:
There's a passage in either aCoS of PoD where the pov of the gholam is given.  From what I read, it seems that he (it?) is beginning to develop a will of his own...he thinks about countermanding his orders from whomever.  This isn't a big deal, but I thought it was interesting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 21:26:31
subject: <b>Sammael indeed</b>
body:
It is surmised in at least one place by other of the Forsaken that Sammael had employed the Gholam. Rand also believes by his deductive method that it was sent by Sammael to kill Herid Fel.  <br /><br />We can tell that it isn't Moridin, since the Gholam appears at the Palace just after Moridin Travels away using the True Power, feeds off the freshly squeezed Madic juice and notes that it itches from something similar, but not quite like, sensing the One Power. Curiosity from that itch is why it ended up where Moridin had been.<br /><br />And yes, it does have the ability to imagine not being commanded, and holds that concept.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 11:37:51
subject: <b>Samael</b>
body:
Who says that hes dead?  We just saw the Evil White Mist where he was a moment before.  We never actualy saw him die.  When I see the body, and personaly cut of the head, then I will believe that a Forsaken is dead.  No, actualy  Balefire while their still alive is the only thing that really works.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 00:58:33
subject: <b>In response to Efreet Sammy is DEAD</b>
body:
Robert Jordan said it himself that Sammy is dead &quot;Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!&quot; Interview of Robert Jordan by CNN on December 12, 2000&quot; (http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html) so the gholam can not have had more orders from Sammy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 13:53:16
subject: <b>Possible?</b>
body:
&quot;That something is a gholam. After all, the whole battle took place using the One Power, and a gholam would not be hurt by it.&quot; <br /> The problem I see is how they could possibly get a gholam there in time? It shouldn't be possible to transport a gholam with traveling, since the gate should vanish on contact with the gholam.


created: 2001-07-25 13:09:48
subject: <b>Gholam in Ebou Dar</b>
body:
This has nothing to do with the theory, just a note.<br /><br />It's most likely that the Gholam in Ebou Dar was sent by Sammael. I came to this conclusion when I reread the part when Jaichim Carridin saw Mat outside his palace. Sammael then told him that &quot;I will send...someone...who can take care of those Aes Sedai&quot; (translated from a swedish book, probabbly not right but close enough.<br />This someone must be the Gholam


created: 2001-08-13 02:05:42
subject: <b>Gholam, hmmm.</b>
body:
I believe that Moridin commands the Gholam.  No eveidence other than I believe Moridin is not to be underestimated, he is Nae'blis and as such is the DO's field marshal.<br /><br />He would have supreme authority over the other servants of the DO, under the DO's direction.  No one, and I repeat no one would be allowed to touch the true power who was not the DO's servant even more than the Forsaken.  The Forsaken, if you really read the dialogues they have with each other and Rand and crew, do not seem higly motivated most of the time to serve the DO other than to achieve their goals. Only a few have shown otherwise, and they still live.<br /><br />Moridin however, has never showed on inch of doing anything other than what was required by the DO. Never, without question.<br /><br />I think the True Power could fry the Gholam if Moridin needed to.  The true power outstrips the one power ten to one, otherwise whats so special about it.  Remember the One Power is a lesser form of the True Power. The Do and the Creator yield the True Power, only they have the capacity to use it consistantly and not fry themselves.


created: 2001-08-18 18:45:21
subject: <b>In Answer to everyone's comments</b>
body:
Apparently, it is possible for a channeler to open a gateway, and for a gholam to use it.  I believe this is so, because Mat, while wearing the foxhead, had no problem passing through the gateway in aCoS when he went to Ebou Dar with Elayne and Nynaeve...  So there you go.<br /><br />And to whom ever thought Moridin is the one controling the gholam...  give me a break, if he's the one in command, how come the gholam is spying on him?<br /><br />If Sammael promised Carridin to send someone to deal with the Aes Sedai, that makes perfect sense with the theory!<br /><br />About being in a stasis box...  I don't think the gholam cared much about that.  From his POV it seems he was sort of 'turned off' while in there.  'one moment the AoL, the next moment this place'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 11:38:06
subject: <b>lironj: time stands still in a stasis box</b>
body:
*nm*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 21:56:29
subject: <b>blood drinker</b>
body:
i thought the blood drinker/creatures in ebou dar was the<br />gholam and thats how mat knows he is still there?


created: 2002-02-16 16:50:23
subject: <b>dredah, that is correct</b>
body:
nm<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 12:21:46
subject: <b>great idea</b>
body:
i like this theory. not only does it make sense but it fits the gholams PoV evidence.<br />samael wants the girls dead because they are both competing for the angreal stash.<br />samael wants mat dead because he still believes that mat will command the huge army that is comming his way<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 15:30:10
subject: <b>COOL!</b>
body:
Wow!  Awesome!!  I like it!!!  I would offer a better reply and anlysis of the theory but I am about to leave work so there isn't time.  maybe later.  Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 15:45:38
subject: <b>Very good indeed!</b>
body:
Except that Elaida isn't black Ajah, and doesn't know Alviarin is. She took the lead of the deposition team by sheer strengh of character.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 16:06:41
subject: <b>A note about Military Attack on TV</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai can use the one power to defend themselves and their warders.  This can lead to strange situations since a bulk of the fighting will be done by AS (if it comes to that).  The big loophole is of course, in defense of the warders.  Warders aren't bound by the three oaths.  So if a warder from TV defends an area the AS bonded to that warder can use the one power to 'defend' him.  Of course if that warder is killed...  You can see where this leads.  We could easily have a warder blood bath unless both sides decide to fight civily.  If it gets too bad that warders are killed by rival AS as a matter of rule, then AS might be able to legally use the one power against rival AS as long as their warder is within range of the rival AS.<br /><br />Of course the rebel AS have the HUGE advantage of gating.  This alone might win them the battle, as long as they are careful not to give it away to the tower AS accidentally.<br /><br />RabidWombat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 16:15:59
subject: <b>Rebels</b>
body:
the rebels have rediscovered gating, making of ter'angreal and the way to heal stilling... they have the Kin and about 400 new novices(as was mentioned) along with knowledge of the Sea Folk chanelers and the Bowl of Winds (unles they plan to let the sea folk keep it). These things alone plus the possible help of the Ashamen will insure a quick and easy &quot;negotiation&quot;. Great post and i agree whole heartedly.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;were there any guards?&quot;<br />&quot;Yes.&quot;   &quot;Where are they now?&quot;  &quot;Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 16:21:49
subject: <b>Very Good</b>
body:
That is a very good theory m8, well worth a slap on the back for being so damn clever. I dont think i will read the theories anymore, after all with all these clever theories we could practically write the next book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />n1<br /><br />EoK aka Calis<br />Valerhu son of tomas<br />defender of Krondor<br />Plague on the Panthian Race<br />o.o.k i'll stop <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-20 18:53:38
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Looks like I'm in the minority here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thanks for the theory.  Quite a lot to think about here.  But I&#8217;ll focus on your main point: <b><i>I have given a lot of thought to how the struggle for the White Tower will resolve itself and ...In a nutshell I believe that it will be a relatively bloodless conflict with Egwene as the victor (like Rand&#8217;&#8217;s conquest of Illian). </i></b><br /><br />If I had to illustrate your well thought out theory I would compare it to the cold war between the US and the USSR.  Why wasn&#8217;t the trigger pulled by one side or the other?  The ultimate damage would hurt both sides.  By 1980 the USSR was struggling internally just like the Tower is in turmoil in WotWorld.  By the time Gorby was doing his thing the USSR still could have blown the doors off of parts of the West.  But to what avail?  It was smarter to cave and try to regroup.  Not a perfect comparison I know, but close I think.  So, in the real world, and if clear minded AS take ultimate control away from Elaida, I agree with you.  The big build up will turn into a series of negotiations and that&#8217;s that.  Let&#8217;s get ready for The Last Battle baby.<br /><br />But that&#8217;s all based on logic and sound reason.  So I disagree with you for two reasons:<br /><br />A.  I don&#8217;t believe things will go so smoothly.  One of the Dark One&#8217;s Great Plans is merely to screw things up.  Doesn&#8217;t really matter if he gets anything out of it.  As long as it doesn&#8217;t work.  Let&#8217;s not forget that The Dark Lord knows clearly what is going on from both sides of the street.  Okay.  He may not know about Dark Sisters being questioned in the Tower but I wouldn&#8217;t put it past him.  RJ has told us that the DO is equal to the Creator.  The Creator has taken a hands off approach.  The DO is in it up to his earlobes.  For that reason alone the Tower Battle could get very ugly.<br /><br />B.  In <i>this</i> world many critics and fans are getting bored.  Starting with PoD and then with WH book sales remain strong but the mood is starting to get ugly.  People are wanting some action.  So in this next edition they might get it.  Including the Tower.  And RJ has set it up to be messy.  Even if it is pretty quickly resolved.  It won&#8217;t be through negotiations but with Egwene&#8217;s bloody hand around the Tower&#8217;s throat tensing to cut off it&#8217;s air.<br /><br />That&#8217;s my take anyway.  Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm&gt;Cool Fish&lt;/a&gt;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 19:37:42
subject: <b>I think it will end differently</b>
body:
I think the battle will be going bad for Egwene...... Gareth Bryne will about to be killed by Mesaana....... then<br /><br />Rand/Nyn will access the keys, and everyone will be momentarily disoriented except Siuan who will rush in and balefire the Forsaken and then the tide will turn and Egwene will win...... <br /><br />(If Rand's cleansing of the taint doesn't play into the White tower battle, I will be horribly disappointed)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-20 20:39:06
subject: <b>Poetic Justice</b>
body:
Elaida held by an adam....I get shivers just thinking about it.  But who will hold the leash?  I mean, think about it.  AS get sick to their stomachs even thinking about damane and the sul'dam.  Even stilling.  Even men channeling (god forbid).  Who is going to have a strong enough stomach to do it.  Maybe Nynaeve and Elayne, but they are in Caemlyn trying to win Elayne's throne for her.  And are they going to have enough AS willing to hold all the BA from the rebels and TV?  <br /><br />Another question, are they going put an adam on the TV AS?  To keep them from stabbing the rebels in the back during the fighting? (also to use as a weapon instead of just tying off a shield, because we know those can be untied.)  And are the rebel AS going to have the stomach to do it???<br /><br />Too many questions.  My head hurts.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 21:04:40
subject: <b>About Elaida being black ajah</b>
body:
If I recall in book 9 we find out that at least one black ajah member THINKS that Elaida is one of their own. Her reason was that they (the evil Aes Sedai) are always aware of Elaidas plans before the rest of the tower is. They know what proclamations and such that Elaida will write and propose before the hall of the tower is even convened.<br /><br />   We the readers realize that is because of Alviarnin being the one who is black mailing Elaida. I can't ever remember if it is her or Galina that is the head of the black sisters. Either way Alviarnin is a very high ranking member. She's been using Elaida from the very beginning as a puppet. That way when things go south she (Alviarnin) isn't left looking guilty. The whole reason that Alviarnin supported Elaida was to split the tower. I doubt that it ever even occured to Ms. Roihan to think that such a consequence was even possible.<br /><br />   With Elaida being responsible for so many things she will definitely seem to be a member of the Black Ajah. Even the sisters that are interrogating the black sister that they've caught are suspicious now. The one that was originally charged with the task is starting to wonder if she may have misheard the instructions that she was given. Afterall Elaida never said the words black ajah.<br /><br />   That is of course because Elaida was trying to set a up a plot against Alviarnin. She was specific even in so far as saying &quot;Search even as high as the keeper herself&quot; (or words to that effect). She just didnt' want to make it obvious that this was vendetta. Elaida was also most likely uncomfortable with saying the term black ajah. We've seen in other books that she is one of those that doesn't believe in their existence (forget what book, but shortly after she got the seat and was reminiscing about Siuans questioning being filled paranoid rantings about the BA). So it seems that this was a plan to use the perception of the black ajah to sack Alviarnin. Of course if Elaida only realized the irony of that I don't think she'd laugh much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 05:03:56
subject: <b>*opens his mouth and shuts it*</b>
body:
I <b>really</b> am impressed. That's the best theory so far. Great job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-21 14:45:56
subject: <b>Justice for Elaida</b>
body:
I like your idea of Elaida possibly not being totally disposed of in order to present an image of a whole White Tower.  However, I think she'll receive justice via another hand, Thom's.  It's my belief that Elaida was the one responsible for stilling Thoms nephew, Owen, without a trial in order to lure Thom away from Morgase so she could become the Queen's primary advisor.  With Moraine's letter in hand, Thom finally has the info. he needs to extract revenge.


created: 2001-06-21 17:48:48
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I like your theory - in actual fact I tried writing a similar theory myself (didn't get posted though - not quite as well set out as yours <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).  I believe that a few of our friends will get disappointed and find that Egwene succeeds in a bloodless coup.  TV AS will certainly negotiate once they realise the sheer numbers of black ajah they have, as well as the crimes against Elaida.<br /><br />One thing to remember though, Egwene has her own black ajah worries herself.  She may have to do her own purge with the oath rod!


created: 2001-06-21 18:51:20
subject: <b>I agree to most part of the theory</b>
body:
But maybe the Seanchan will step right in middle of the struggle. Remember there's a prophecy that the Shining Walls are to be broken or something close to that (kneel). And I don't think this theory is fullfilled by the breaking of the tower. TV must break and what better than a fight of Aes Sedai vs. Damane to fullfill this theory.<br />This is supported that Min saw some Aes Sedai collared and since I don't think the Seanchan will use the a'dam after Rands visit in Seandar, there won't be much time for them to ge collared. It could also be one of those ends of a book where all storylines end up together in gigantic final.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 20:59:08
subject: <b>Marvelous....</b>
body:
Analysis of circumstances, and very well detailed. Now for my thoughts. (Did you imagine otherwise?)<br /><br />The Rebels have these several hundred novices with them, far more than the Tower housed in centuries. They are certainly double the TAS in numbers, if not much more. All it will take is one conversation via T'A'R, or Egwene tapping into Elayne dreaming, and you can add the AS, the Kin, the Windfinders, and the Wise Ones currently in both Caemlyn and Cairhien. Now the TAS are outnumbered something like 4:1 or more. Surely the Tower Guards are outmatched by Bryne's army at an even larger ratio.<br /><br />This has to happen in a fairly short time frame, or at least the beginnings do, so we can count Rand, Nynaeve, and the group that we left resting outside the tomb of Shadar Logoth out of the initial foray. As well, I don't see any Asha'man involved at the outset. But I have a feeling that when the Sitters see what is arrayed against them, they might be more than happy to offer up Elaida in just the way she thinks the rebels will offer up Egwene. (I know, wishful thinking)<br /><br />One wildcard remains Mesaana. What forces does she have at her disposal to counter such an invasion? Dragkhar, darkhounds, gray men, one of the remaining gholam? We just don't know. But we know that she won't be sitting around waiting to see who wins.<br /><br />The second wildcard is Halima/Aran'gar. She and Mesaana have been in touch at least on one occasion recently, so it can be assumed that since they are working the opposite groups of AS that they'd compare notes. That will surely spell trouble for Egwene, and Balthamel did know something about war.<br /><br />A third Wildcard, if indeed Elayne might be contacted to send help, is her own problems in Caemlyn. Daved Hanlon, a darkfriend under orders from Shiaine, is the Captain of her Bodyguard, and there are the four armies heading in from the East.<br /><br />Something else that needs consideration is the parallel timing of things. We see Perava and Seaine discovered by a group of Sitters during their hunt of Black Ajah, then in turn Talene is uncovered as Black, all in the prologue of WH. Then we see nothing more about that issue. I am of the opinion that the internal 'Black hunt' must be concluded before the invasion of Egwene's forces can commence, from a purely chronological standpoint. Since there is no telling how that will run, and how large an influence it may have on the Tower's ability to withstand Egwene's invasion, it could tend to make any analysis revert to mere speculation.<br /><br />I have a hard time thinking that the Tower/Rebel conflict will be bloodless, given all the chaotic forces at work on either side. So for those restless and disgruntled fans who crave action, I suspect you'll be satisfied.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 23:25:37
subject: <b>Different sort of action</b>
body:
Oh I agree there will be action, but I think it will all occur inside the walls of Tar Valon.  I think Egwene and her &quot;rebels&quot; will appear at the gates of TV and discover there is a mini civil war happening inside.  Surely it would be in the best interests of Egwene and her band to just sit back and wait to see what happens!! And as Call_Me_Tim stated, Mesaana is surely going to be involved, and who knows what she will bring to the conflict.<br /><br />Mesaana could,<br /><br />a) Stand and fight - defend her loyal DF's in a massive pitched battle.  This would cause the most dramatic action we've seen in the WOT in a long time!<br /><br />b) Intervene Subtly - Should she discover who is doing the hunting of BA's, she may seek them out and try to use compulsion on them to get them foget that they are hunting BA.  I can't really remember if Mesaana was a large compulsion user, and I don't have my books in front of me, so I'm not sure how viable this option is.<br /><br />c) Leave the BA to look after themselves.  She may decide there is no reason to risk her life in attempting to salvage control over the WT.  She might realise that Egwene's rebels are most likely going to win anyway, and that Halima - with her/his ability to channel undetected from Aes Sedai, might be able to control/influence the tower better then she could anyway.  Although she is unlikely to want to relinquish her power/influence over Alvirian and Elaida, she would probably prefer this to open combat.<br /><br />Anyway, regardless of the outcome, I see most of the action taking place inside the tower as opposed to outside.


created: 2001-06-22 08:49:03
subject: <b>Excellent Theory</b>
body:
But one thing that has been a common thread is that very few of the Black Ajah know each other, or about other plots in the Tower.  So it's very unlikely that anyone will find out about the 51 sisters sent to take out the Black Tower, or even about the failed attempt to capture Rand unless they get Alvarian herself.<br /><br />I think that Alvarian will fall when Seine and the other Sitters finally act in bringing down the Black Ajah.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Statman<br /><br />- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 10:48:08
subject: <b>My Thoughts</b>
body:
I think that given <br /><br />A) This rebel Aes Sedai thing has been going on for long enough. <br /><br />B) The fans want action; many saying that for a VIP Battle Royale in book 9, the cleansing scene was boring. <br /><br />C) We have only 1/2 a death on the women's side (Lanfear died, came back and Moghedien might've died)<br /><br />Mesaana will die either next book or #11. Obviously fighting would not be smart for her but we've seen some pretty stupid things from a group of 13 One Power Wielding supergeniuses.


created: 2001-06-22 11:25:33
subject: <b>Great theory, except....</b>
body:
I think it's a well thought out theory, and I suppose I agree with it, although I haven't really given a whole lot of thought.<br />Anyway, the point...<br /><br />While looking through the books to try and solve Demandred's identity, I cam across this tidbit.  Crown of Swords, American paperback, page 41.  Mesanna is talking to her Black Ajah cronie - Alviarin - and the text goes like this:<br /><br />Messana: &quot;You have a little strength, child.  Not much, but enough.&quot;<br />- A weave appeared seemingly from nowhere.<br />Messana: &quot;This,&quot; Mesanna chimed, &quot;is called a gateway.&quot;<br /><br />Hate to step on anyones toes...but the forces in the White Tower will likely have access to gateways come battle time.  They may not be able to use them as efficiently and tactically as the Salidar rebels, but still, the odds are somewhat evened.<br />


created: 2001-06-22 12:41:39
subject: <b>Gateways</b>
body:
I believe that in the same scene where Alviarin was taught the weave for Travelling she was also forbidden to teach it to anyone.  In fact I think Messana said something like 'use this the way I tell you and keep it to yourself or else.'  <br /><br />I seems clear that Alviarin has been Traveling, but there is nothing to indicate that she has taught anyone else.  If Alviarin had taught the weave to anyone outside the BA I think it would have really created a comotion in the Tower.  In addition, they would have used it by now to influence events, or at least try to save the 50 sisters sent to attack the Black Tower.<br /><br />I do think that Alviarin will use Traveling to escape with the remnants of the BA during the purge.  However, if the fight for the Tower is bloody as may are predicting maybe she will use it to bring Darkfriends or Shadowspawn into the Tower.  I am hoping for the latter myself but it just does not seem to be the most likely resolution.<br /><br />Key West


created: 2001-06-22 22:37:28
subject: <b>Bravo! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I rather liked the theory, and I think it's 50/50 between negotiation and fighting. Among the Towers, things will be get really intense in Book 10.<br /><br />Now that saidin is cleansed, Rand only has Flinn and Narishma that he can trust (Logain too, but he hasn't met him in person yet). With the taint gone, Rand will have to do something about Taim. With the M'hael building a cadre of fanatics to support him, the only choice is to cut off the rebellion's head (whether Taim is Darkfriend or not doesn't matter; he's still going for personal control of the BT, and must be stopped). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If Bryne can get his men to block the harbors and lay siege to the bridge towns, they can bring Tar Valon to its knees. My view is that the TG will surrender, but Elaida and the Tower Sedai will put up a fight. Enter Messana and Alviarin: while the AS are distracted, the Black Ajah stages a coup and attempts to sieze control of the WT. I'm assuming Elaida finds out she was a puppet, and takes on Alviarin; Egwene somehow confronts Messana (and finishes her). With Elaida exposed as a puppet, the Tower Sedai recognize Egwene as Amyrlin, and present a unified front to influence Rand.<br /><br />With what RJ has been building up with workers of the OP, he has to be settling the conflicts with the Towers. My guess at a working title for Book 10: Shattered Towers. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 02:43:39
subject: <b>Question...</b>
body:
What will happen to the resolve of the Red Ajah when they discover their whole reason for existance has vanished after Rand cleansed saidin?  I think this will have a great effect on the Reds in TV once they hear of it.


created: 2001-06-23 03:08:07
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
Given what we've seen of the Red Ajah so far, I don't think it's likely to have much if any affect on them.  However, added to evidence of Reds &quot;overreaching&quot; in the past, it could provide enough reason for the other Ajahs to decide there is no longer a use for Red.


created: 2001-06-23 20:19:17
subject: <b>No, no, no!</b>
body:
Well, yes to the begining, but I don't think the black Ajah will leave meekly.  Messena is in place with Alvahrian controlling the WHITE TOWER, aka the biggest suppository of *angreal in the world.  The BA also will have the element of cordination and surprise if they discover the kidnappings soon enough.  Along, with not being bound by those pesky oaths....Also, I don't think Messena would take the oaths and shortan her life by hundreds of years.  I would agree that the battle for uniting the tower will be bloodless for Egwene, but I predict she will have to re-take the tower after gining support form Aes Sedi fleeing the carnage in the tower.  Having the entire BA put out of comission would rob the DO of his main dreadlords, and we wouldn't want to see that.  Overall, I think the sitters gaining control of everything would just be tooo simple.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 21:41:59
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
Is Alviarin Not a member off the hall and a sitter? as soon as the sitters find out she will and as soon as she finds out (if not sooner) Mesana Will. What Will happen?? AND OPEN AND BLOODY GET AWAY OR TAKEVER OF THE TOWER (trying anyway) BLOODY <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 00:54:41
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
That is....wow. That is the best summation of the Tower conflict I have ever heard. And, it fits in with what I think will happen. *grins* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />However, I think something, probab;y involving Halima, will happen to fulfill Min's viewing about SS having to stay close to Bryne, or both of them dying. Hopefully something suitably dramatic...... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 03:08:18
subject: <b>Disagreement</b>
body:
&quot;On a side note, I think that Mesaana will get snapped up somewhere in the process. She will swear the first oath, because she will be in a situation where she will have no choice, and be asked something like &#8216;are you of the Black Ajah,&#8217; since she is not she will be able to truthfully answer no. She will then be released to help hunt, but instead she will sound the alarm for the Black Ajah and have Alviarin use her ability to travel to get the rest of the Black Ajah out of the Tower. It just stands to reason that the bad guys need their Dreadlords.&quot;<br /><br />I do not agree about the &quot;are you of the Black Ajah&quot; qn, 'cos take note here, Mesaana is not of the Black Ajah, and she is a thousand times more skilled and faster than them all. She also treats them like tools and dogs to be used when she should so wish. So, if she were asked about being of the Black Ajah, she would be able to go &quot;Hell bloody hell no! What sheepswallop!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 18:04:21
subject: <b>Prophecy</b>
body:
[b]The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.  The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.  What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path. [/b]<br /><br />I have two thoughts on this, and yes, since someone drug the Seanchan into it earlier, it does qualify<br /><br />A) The tower has already broken.  It WILL kneel to Rand (&quot;Under this sign shall he conquer&quot; - the ancient symbol for AS)<br /><br />B) The tower has already broken, but the &quot;forgotten sign&quot; is Hawkwing's sigil.  I know, I don't believe it either, but it is still a possibility.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-08-14 02:07:01
subject: <b>One word:</b>
body:
Wow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 08:22:11
subject: <b>Right</b>
body:
first of all there will be no flamin union between the black an white towers.1.ever since he had gotten flamin captured he never trusted aes sedai again and he said it himself i dont care if it is egwene.2.egwene hates asha'man and thinks the black tower was a bad idea.i agree(which is something i bloody ever do)that most black ajah will be rooted out.and egwene said it her flamin self that the war was going to be bloody.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 20:28:54
subject: <b>If there is a battle...</b>
body:
And I'm planning it, I would want to minimize Aes Sedai/Warder blood, Tower Guard blood, and collateral damage to the city, in that order.<br /><br />I would gateway a circle of 13 into Elaida's study or her bedroom, shield her, and command her to stop the fighting. At the same time, gate more full circles all over the Tower. They can shield anyone they see until the fighting stops. Send about 40-50 sisters and possibly a hundred or so of Bryne's men to the *angreal storerooms. Send the rest of Bryne's army to the gates leading into the WT. Have them hold those gates, maybe with some sisters as needed, against anyone who comes in. This would let you, especially at night, give you around 350 AS, more if they bring the novices, performing a quick strike into a sleepy, tired WT, with 30,000 men making sure no one decides to come crash the party, i.e. Chubain and the Tower Guard. (Note: Alviarin wanted the Guard at 50,000 men, and likely got it that high. I don't think Bryne has more then 30-40 thousand.)<br /><br />The Rebels can shield everyone in the Tower, get them to surrender, and then the Tower is reunited. (Perhaps while they shield everyone Pevara and Seaine will perform the BA tests.)<br /><br />What will throw a wrench into this plan?<br /><br />Mesanna and Aran'gar. Aran'gar may not participate, given that being in a battleground with hundreds of jumpy sisters shielding everything in sight is not a good place for a Forsaken to be. Mesanna could A) Gateway out, and start over. B) Get Alviarin, and figure out a way to evacuate the BA as well, giving the Shadow it's Dreadlords. C) Go for the *angreal cache and try to get a sa'angreal during the chaos. D) Let herself be captured/shielded, and remain in the Tower as her alter ego, continuing to lead the BA. E) Try to make a stand, and either die fighting, get shielded/stilled/executed, or kill Egwene or someone and run for it.<br /><br />Mesanna is a practical and intelligent woman, but also hardheaded. She will likely attempt B) or C), maybe D). I think she is too stubborn to roll over and flee, and too smart to get killed. D) is a possibility, but with all hell breaking loose in the BA, she might attempt to run for it. (Hmm, what happens when Pevara/Seaine try to question her?) <br /><br />I think she will do a combo of B and C. She will get the BA, try to take some *angreal, maybe get a few, then the AS will drive her off, and she will gate to Shayol Ghul with the BA. The Shadow has Dreadlords and some *angreal, so there will be a measure of balance at Tarmon Gai'don


created: 2001-06-20 15:30:12
subject: <b>Actaully, no....</b>
body:
It says somewhere in the books, I think it's one of the forsaken talking, that the stones were old even in the Age of Legends, so they can't be of this age, although they could be from the previous time this age was around. They probably just have nothing to do with the Ajah of this day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-wink-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 15:48:23
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
maybe the colors used on the stones and the colors of the Ajah simply stand out as being useful... i wouldn't use ogange, red, ocre, yellow, pink, deep orange, sun-red, etc. if I had to select colors. The stones AND the Ajahs are just the best choices. Lanfear says even in the Age of Legends, people didn't really understn the stones and the worlds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 16:07:20
subject: <b>Or it might be...</b>
body:
...that the steps with the Ajah colors were built later - after all, they are not a part of the Stone.


created: 2001-06-21 09:02:11
subject: <b>Build in 4th?</b>
body:
They could also have been build in the 4th Age, with Ajahs still remaining, though i doubt there will be RA after TG. But one never knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 10:19:20
subject: <b>different world</b>
body:
I don't like telling people their theories are wrong, because this one holds alot of logic, but if you re read the series a few times you notice very small differences between the early books and the later ones where there are small mistakes.  Just little ones, kind've how there was absolutely no mention of weaving the power didn't come about till the later books.  But then again, I think that example is not a good one, because I believe Robert Jordan wrote the series so that as Rand, or the other characters discovered how things worked you learned at the same time.<br /><br />That is all I believe this one is, unless of course my theory is correct about the red ajah becoming asha'man warders. <br /><br />But either way, I believe you are right!<br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-21 20:00:09
subject: <b>Fixtures outside the Wheel....</b>
body:
Remember when Verin told everyone that in every possible world, even all of those reached using the Portal Stones, that there were some things that never changed? The Stones themselves must therefore be among those things that never change.<br /><br />It is perfectly reasonable then, since it was the Aes Sedai study of the Stones that led to the creation of the Ways, that the seven colors of the steps of the Portal Stones would carry significance, and that Aes Sedai would, in their infinite arrogance, adopt them as their own.<br /><br />Hmm, parallel question here. Since certain of the symbols on the Portal Stones suggest the ability to travel backwards in time as well as forward, wouldn't there have been ANYONE prior to or during the Breaking that had a clue how to use them, and could have gone back a little bit to change things? If not, then where has ANY knowledge of their use come from? Obviously Lanfear knew how to use them, since she is the one who took Rand, Loial and Hurin through one in tGH, then showed him which symbols to focus on to return them. Well, it had to be asked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 12:07:39
subject: <b>Where did you read about TimeTravel?</b>
body:
It can be I'm wrong but I think time travelling in WOTworld isn't possible. The reason is that the Wheel weaves the pattern now!, when you travel backwards the pattern is already woven, thus changing it could destroy it. It would be very similar to the effect of Balefire, you destroy/change things that interacted already. It's the same reason why TimeTraveling in our World would destroy the world. <br />Maybe you can give a quote about the TT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 15:13:11
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
The current ajahs were probably (I don't think I have anything to base this on except logic) derived from groups within the AS during the Age of Legends. Based on that, so too could the colors of the ajahs. Maybe each color was significant for some reason or other. In the age of legends, when they studied the stones, they could have built the multi-colored steps around them. They were obviously built long before the Trollock wars, because in the alternate reality Rand, Loial and Hurin travelled to, the trollocks won a huge battle in that vicinity, and the steps existed and looked old then. I could be wrong, but I think the steps were built either in, or even before the Age of Legends, but long after the stones were put  there.<br />


created: 2001-06-23 21:50:11
subject: <b>Dust</b>
body:
If Lanfear knew how to use the stones then the must from her age or before. think Logic<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 15:22:37
subject: <b>Chaos Numbers..</b>
body:
I think Lanfear said in TGH that the stones were ancient even in the AoL. She may have even said they were used by the people who knew the Chaos Numbers long before the AoL.  I'll check this when I get home and have access to TGH.


created: 2001-06-30 13:12:11
subject: <b>i still might be right...</b>
body:
who says that the age of legends isn't thousand of years away and that the stones created now are considerd aintcent then...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> naa done the lot of ya!! ( sorry can't spell for <br />S{<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />}t scuse my trolloc <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 10:13:22
subject: <b>another addition</b>
body:
	the portal stones where probably created before the time of Arther Hawkwing because when his armys reach the seachan continent the seachan had already used the portal stones to bring Torm, Raken, and other creatures from the other worlds (see the chapter in the seachan beasts in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time(It also has some great background info on the forsaken and the age of legends))


created: 2002-01-05 19:59:09
subject: <b>Origin of the daggum colors</b>
body:
Remember all that garbage that Ishy/Moridin always spews out about Ages repeating themselves?<br />When he is playing Sha 'rah with himself, he comments on the most important piece, the fisher.  it's a guy who is blindfolded and holding his side as if he was wounded there.  Moridin says &quot;Perhaps this is a remnant of al'Thor from another age&quot;. The Portal Stones are a remnant from an age older than the Age of Legends.  Lanfear says so herself.   Says she read a book called the Mirrors of the Wheel to figure out how to use them. This is quite possible because she was a scientist in the AoL. Therefore the steps with the colors of the ajahs are a remnant from another age older than the AoL.


created: 2002-05-28 21:39:45
subject: <b>Correlation doesn't mean causality</b>
body:
perhaps the colors chosen for the stones/ajahs have a deeper/older meaning and the modern meanings were adopted...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 12:26:02
subject: <b>This makes sense.</b>
body:
Well, we know that there must have been some Aes Sedai left who were strong enough to use them.  Not to mention, there weren't Ajahs in the Age of Legends, were there?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 13:14:36
subject: <b>Could be other way around</b>
body:
Could be but what if it was the other way round! I mean the white tower gets built and there are already agahs but no coulors then some would be brown comes along with a big theoligacl reason on how the stones represent Aes Sedai nature and tne agahs adopt the coulors.<br />Also if they were made in this age how come so little is known about them even by know it all Verin whom says that there were practiclly no books about them and also if they were of this age then how would Lanfear know so mutch about them and a book wrigten about them.<br />She would only know about the book if the stones were made in her age ie: The stones were made in The Age of Legends.


created: 2001-06-21 05:14:04
subject: <b>Binding chair</b>
body:
There's been a lot of speculation on the Nine Rods of Dominions and the purpose they surved.<br />Sammael gave Sevanna one &quot;Oath&quot; rod but it could be used only on channelers. He mentioned something about a binding chair that can be used to compell non-channelers.<br />Besides we've read about Moghedien being bound by the mindtrap, though I don't know if it works on channelers only or not. But I bet it can be used by Darkfriends only cause, as far as I remember, the whole process of &quot;mindtrapping&quot; can be performed only in Shayoul Ghul.


created: 2001-06-21 06:08:17
subject: <b>Not the same</b>
body:
Hi!<br /><br />It is unlikely that the Oath Rod is one of the Nine Rods of Dominion.<br /><br />For one thing, it has the number 3 on it, whilst the Shaido rod has 119? on it. This shows a numbering scheme and that there were far more than Nine Rods.<br /><br />Secondly, the Forsaken do not refer to it as a rod, but as a binder.<br /><br />It seems obvious that the Oath Rod is in fact a Binder - a tool for punishment used on those who could channel.<br /><br />As for the theory that the Nine Rods could force someone into an Oath - that seems unlikely. Not impossible, but that ability seems more of the Dark One than the Light. Of course, maybe it is a side effect.<br /><br />EJL


created: 2001-06-21 08:51:45
subject: <b>Numbers</b>
body:
What if the number represented the number of people required in a circle USING that Rod to FORCE an oath?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 14:54:45
subject: <b>Other rods to consider</b>
body:
Another rod that may belong to the 9 rods of dominion is the one that produces balefire.  There's something about balefire that makes you think it's a bottom line force of nature or force of the true source.   If that's the case, then the oath rods alone would not be the 9 rods of dominion.  Also, what about that rod that Bayle Domon had on his ship in EOTW?


created: 2001-06-21 19:50:16
subject: <b>RE: Numbers</b>
body:
The rod Caddar(Sammael) gives to Sevanna is enumerated with 111. The rod used in the White Tower has a single digit, 3.<br /><br />There's no way these represent the number of channelers required to be used. The times that we see the Oath Rod in the Tower used, only one person channels into it each time. And why would Caddar bother giving the Shaido a rod that would take over a hundred channelers to operate, and not instruct them so? It's too useful a tool to waste that way.<br /><br />I don't believe the 3 1's on the rod the Shaido hold represent the number 'one hundred eleven', but have a different representation of some kind. I can't say what, but I see no reason to suspect that over a hundred such rods were created.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 08:42:57
subject: <b>not what i meant</b>
body:
what i meant was a circle of that many people that lets you do something extra. The person leading the circle would channel a weave into it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 10:07:27
subject: <b>Number and alphabet...</b>
body:
change when age and languages change! Maybe it was the way to write &quot;let me bind you to hell and shorten your life all at the same time&quot; when the Rod was made! We don't know that they were made in the Age of Legend, only used. I'm sure some Ter'angreal were made before<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 17:58:40
subject: <b>shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-go 2 sleap go 2 sleap...nanananna nanana</b>
body:
don't u guys know AN&quot;YTHING?<br />there is an ability i'm not sure how it is called...grandel uses it a lot... i think it is named :forcing!<br />y hsould htey make a terangrial made of 7 parts when they could do it THEMSELVES?<br />its a nice theory but i like dstroying peoples life so...<br /><br />it is possible that the AOL Aes Sedai's wanted 2 prevent something like the war of power and the Black Ajah sping on them...aperantly they didn't think of the removing sh!t so there goes 1 thing...ALTHOUGH LTT said that they were so logical that they would probably think 'y should any1 try and reasemble his bonds?' or somehthing like that...<br />the point is that it could have been made for hundreds of reasons and who the heck KNOW WHERE did he find that rod with the 111?<br />the rod with the'3' was probably made specificaly for the White Tower but we don't know about the other...<br /><br />most of these theories sucks so try 2 think NEW!!! WH!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 15:48:52
subject: <b>Oath Rod</b>
body:
The one Sammy have to Sev he said it only work on Female Chanellers. Also didn't Elayne find a Rod in Ebou Dar or some where but she couldn't work out what it did.<br />Maybe Ter'angeral were commonly made rods, like Wands.


created: 2001-10-31 17:00:46
subject: <b>111 channelers? Nope...</b>
body:
According to the Illustrated World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, the maximum number of channelers that can exist in a circle and work together is 72.  Thus, &quot;111&quot; cannot be the number of channelers required to make the rod work.<br /><br />However, I agree with the other comment that the numbers are something other than an enumeration.  &quot;3&quot; on the Oath Rod at the Tower, and &quot;111&quot; on the rod given to Sevanna, must mean something else, but I can't even begin to speculate on what.  Personally, I support the theory that the 9 Rods of Dominion are oath rods.


created: 2002-01-11 22:22:12
subject: <b>Crystal throne...</b>
body:
Maybe the High Seat is the Seanchan Crystal throne? <br /><br />If the tamylin could force ppl into the light, then why didn't (couldn't) he stop the Forsaken when they announced their new allegience? Makes no sense! <br /><br />&quot;Oh, so you're a Dreadlord now?, too bad we could have used you in the light... well, of you go!&quot;


created: 2002-04-22 21:10:03
subject: <b>maybe....</b>
body:
the rods when used in AOL for punishment were used for one person only so theres like rod 3 used on joe snow at some time or other and rod locked up, so the oath could not be removed.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-28 09:11:24
subject: <b>one point</b>
body:
just a little point. the oath rod and binders and the RoD are individual because of points i have stated previosly in other posts but thats not my point. my point is that it is a large coincidence that both the black ajah and the sisters both swear three oaths on an oath rod marked with a three (although i dont really see someone swearing one hundred and eleven oaths).<br /><br />this isn't enough for a real theory or anything, just to throw some of the things i've noticed in to the pot.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;you say we should make our swords into plowshares. well i say to you what good are plowshares when trollocs roam the fields&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Caraman Gaiden<br /><br />The journeyman battle brother


created: 2002-06-28 10:02:27
subject: <b>Concerning Numbers</b>
body:
Ok, to those of you saying the numerals are not numerals, it doesn't say anything like, there were three ones in a row, like someone seems tto think, it said that it was the old tongue symbol for 111, I think Aes Sedai would know about such things.  Still, there's the vague possibility that you are right, maybe they should ask Mat, or Birgitte.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 02:38:07
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
so youre saying that the 111 could mean 3? i just dont see that as possible from the aol. thay would try to make things clear so theres no mistake about ojects of power.<br /><br />p.s or we could RAFO &gt;:j


created: 2002-11-11 18:22:28
subject: <b>No No No</b>
body:
The oath rods were just binders in the AOL. Law enforcement tools. It's a big world, so there were lots of them. They were very powerful, so they were numbered and kept track of. There were probably hundreds of them; each juristicion had one. (We can see there were at least 111 of them...)<br /><br />The Nine Rods of Dominion were obviously a big deal or a Forsaken wouldn't have referred to them in the context Ishy did.<br />Sammael, however, is pretty casual about handing a binder... oath rod... over to the Shaido.<br /><br />The Seanchan Throne being the High Seat is an interesting thought, though. I kind of doubt it, but it's better than a lot of ideas I've seen. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 17:17:46
subject: <b>male oath rods</b>
body:
I would like to think the oath rods were once called binders in the AoL and were then used to punish women who could channel.  If they were, the oath rods were not created after the Breaking and were survivals from a former age.  My question is if there existed ways to punish female channelers in the form of an oath rod, why are there none for male channelers?<br /><br />Sammy in his dealings with the aiel led us to beleive that none such rod existed.  We know that ter'angreal can be specifically designed for men and women, but we also have evidence that while there maybe different ter'angreal for different people, it is possible to create the same object with the same effects with little variance.  (look at the access keys for the kol *somthin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />basically, if the oath rods were binders from the past, what did they use to punish male channelers?  If they had hundreds of these binders, shouldn't have at least several survived?  Shouldn't at least one of the forsaken know about it?  or at least Moridin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-09 04:29:30
subject: <b>Go read the RJ section of FAQ</b>
body:
Oath Rod/Nine Rods are not the same. The Nine Rods were offices/symbols of authority over areas, like governorships. The Crystal throne is not the High Seat. What ring does Elaida find? I'm to lazy to find the quotes, but go check QotW and blogs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 21:18:06
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
i dont know about this theory. i do not think the oath rod(s) are the nine rods of dominion, nor do i think they were heads of state. i think that they were people, powerful aes sedai, akin to ajah heads. This is purely speculation but the ancient aes sedai must have organized themselves in some way, it is logical. Therefore each grouping would have a head no? and i think that the nine grouping heads were the nine rods of dominion. As far as Ishy putting such importance on the topic, perhaps it was not done often, to summon the nine rods of dominion? perhaps it was a sign of great power to do these? more on this later.<br /><br />secondly, for the ring of tamyrlin and the high seat, i think that they were positions of power within the aes sedai. this is for several reasons. first off ishy used them in the same sentense as when he said that LTT was first among servants, so logically they carried some weight that came with being first? <br /><br />secondly, who is the head of modern aes sedai? the Amyrlin Seat. This is too close to the ring of tamyrlin and the high seat to be mere coincedence. After the breaking, the Aes Sedai would logically try to salvage whatever they could of their glorious Age of Legends, although some of it may have been destroyed. I would say that since the Amyrlin Seat is the head of all modern Aes Sedai, and its name was probably salvaged from some musty old document, they words Amyrlin and Seat were found in a document, with both being used in the same context.<br /><br />So if both words were used near eachother in a document concerning leadership of Aes Sedai, then logically both would seem to be heads of Aes Sedai. As to why Ishy put such emphasis on it, perhaps they were most often held by different people, and to hold both was a great honour and a sign of true wisdom and influence.


created: 2001-06-21 01:26:09
subject: <b>Response to Burr</b>
body:
John Glenn did NOT land on the moon.  Neil Armstrong landed on the moon first, departing from the Eagle.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 02:48:20
subject: <b>In Burr's Defense</b>
body:
He was speaking metaphorically (much as Jordan often does).  Glenn was the first American to orbit the Earth, thereby taking the first step from the Eagle (symbol of the US) to(ward) the Moon.  And the command module pilot of Apollo XI (the poor guy who DIDN'T get to leave his footprints) was Michael ColLINS.  <br /><br />In other words, just as Arthur Pendragon is represented by both Artur Hawkwing and Rand al'Thor, Len may represent LEM and John Glenn and Michael Collins, all combined together.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-21 04:39:08
subject: <b>Kool!</b>
body:
I've gotta to give it to you, this one. But, don't you think the time lapse difference is different?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 11:04:53
subject: <b>Well, no, actually.</b>
body:
I just had a brain fart.<br /><br />Can you believe I come from a family of 2 astronomers/astronaut-wannabes?<br /><br />But I still think that that is what RJ was metaphoricalizing (??).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 12:00:46
subject: <b>I'll be very disappointed if it is</b>
body:
It'll be a very bad ending with no originality if this theory is true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mutch<br />&quot;Do onto others before they do onto you&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 13:42:17
subject: <b>The only problem I have with this kind of theory is the way it's worded</b>
body:
Is Earth (our world, the one we all live in) an earlier Age of WoT?  Of course not. The evidence from the universe has led us to discard Time as a Circle for Time as an Arrow.  For an exhaustive study of the subject , read &quot;Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle&quot; by Stephen Jay Gould.  It goes into great detail in explaining how and why scientists discarded earlier theories in which time cycled over and over for more modern views that include movement in an unreversible direction.<br /><br />BUT,  are we supposed to believe that an earlier Age of WoT was Earth?  Of course we are.  There are too many similarities from before the Age of Legends for it not to be.  These continue the resonance that makes the story so powerful in the beginning.  The three young men from Emond's Field are familiar to us from the beginning (the Trickster, the Gentle Giant, the Leader).  They are attacked by Trolls called Goblin, Kobold, Demon, etc.  Stories are told of the High King Artur. All resonate to the archetypes we're familiar with, without simply putting them forward as yet another telling of the same old story.  Suggesting that our world is in their past (and future, since Time is a Wheel), allows that resonance to work in both directions. <br /><br />So, since it doesn't bother me to say &quot;Mat is Odin&quot; (another example of those resonances at work), why am I uncomfortable saying &quot;WoT is Earth&quot;?  Maybe because Mat and Odin occupy the same general space in my mental file cabinet (People who have never really existed), while Earth (Real world) occupies a different folder from WoT (Fictional universe).


created: 2001-06-21 14:46:23
subject: <b>It Would Be Stupid But...</b>
body:
I think it would be really stupid and cliche for Robert Jordan to make his world into ours.  Despite that, let's not also forget the story of Materese of Ind, which of course is taken from Mother Theresa of India.  Personally, I'm just hoping Jordan used our world as a source for names and story themes and nothing more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 18:32:01
subject: <b>One writer commenting on another...</b>
body:
Being a writer myself, I sometimes take past events in our time, and edit themm in someway as a part of the history for the world I am creating, perhaps Jordan does the same. Of course, Jordan never makes things like this without somme sort of reason.


created: 2001-06-21 19:42:19
subject: <b>Of course it could be true.</b>
body:
Symbology and significance of reference are Jordan's hallmarks. I can't imagine that anyone would deny this.<br /><br />The term Earth is used as a pronoun for the planet in at least five places that I have noted while reading the series. That could be a mistake once, but not five times. Foolishly, I wasn't paying closer attention to noting down the contexts or speakers in each case, or I'd be able to say clearly that every occasion of it occured when either a Forsaken or someone well read of history was speaking of the past. I am certain that this is the case at least three of the five occasions.<br /><br />For those that think the story will have a bad ending if it turns out to be future Earth, I can only disagree. It shouldn't be the most important factor in the conclusion of the story, but it could easily be handled as well as Jordan does other aspects. Don't shortchange him on a guess.<br /><br />For Hyam Kinch, Gould's work not withstanding, time is neither a circle nor an arrow, but better represented by a corkscrew. An infinitely long, supremely tightly spun corkscrew. <br /><br />Each point around the circular path represents a position in space, and each pass around at that same point represents an infinitely small passage of time at that location. <br /><br />Time moves along, and seems linear as with the flight of an arrow, should you remain in one place. But we know that movement at significant velocities influences the passage of time, such that we can infer that the force inducing the movement counteracts the force which constrains objects to flow along that time path, ergo the weakness in the most basic form of E=MC^2.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 22:14:30
subject: <b>I agree- Almost</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> I agree with ALMOST everything you say... In fact, all of it excepting where you say that Rand is Jesus counterpart.  I think that Rand is a representation of Jesus (possibly the second coming??)  If you think about it, alot of the events mentioned in WOT are similar to the ones mentioned in the New Testiment (esp. the book of Revelation).  For example, when the 7 seals are broken, the Dark One will be released... and the Anti-Christ will appear once the 7 seals are broken.  And the only one capable of saving one from the dark one and putting him back in his prison is Rand... or Jesus.  Maybe its just my imagination streching some of the facts... but I think theres something here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> A storm is coming... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 10:18:54
subject: <b>You really got it all!</b>
body:
I agree wholheartedly! You convinced me!<br /><br />To make unbeleivers feel better, I'll say two things (or three, I don't know yet).<br /><br />First, time is an arrow, but if the cosmological constant is under 1, then the universe is oscillating between expansion and regression (Big Bang, Big Crunch).<br /><br />Second, who cares what scientific evidence proves. This is fiction, and having fun with it!<br /><br />Third, maybe Jordan is only toying with us and his story, having a little fun by himself.<br /><br />Fourth, it DOES add debpt to the story.<br /><br />Fifth, it's not because you don't like it that it's not true!<br /><br />Sixth, Hickman and Weis did it in the Death Gate Cycle, and no one complained!<br /><br />That is all (three, I said?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 19:52:22
subject: <b>I still don't beleive...</b>
body:
Yes, the words and figures Jordan uses are similar to others propagated through ledgend, fiction, and history.  But then again, how do you communicate ideas through characters that no one can relate to.  People like reading about things thay understand and are firmilar with.<br />    Hawking, for example, shares SOME chracteristics with Aurther Pendragon, High king of Britan.  The simailarites are superficial once you look at those who surounded Hawking.  The False dragon, although in some respects resembaling Mordin, is little like the rouge prince.  Bonohwin and Hawking's queen as compared to Morgan Lefe (sp) and Guenivere have no similarities.  Their rises to power were nothing the same, as were their downfalls.  Hawking and Aurther are only similar in their likeable characterisitcs.  Aurthir is our ideal for a high king.  Start there and tweak it, you have Hawking: a seprate person with a tried and true persona.  <br />    As for your name arguements, much of the same retorts apply.  Grendal is a Forsaken, as opposed to a large evil monster who eats people in norse myths such as Beowulf.  Ishmael is Ne'blis, not a sea captain or a biblical forefather.  Naming  does not mean that they are in the book what they are in our world.  Some names are allusions to other works.  Some of the names are used only to evoke the feelings of what we know.  Mord = death in latin: Mordith, Mordin. <br />    As for the 'earth' idea I stay by my original idea that the name merely evokes the knowledge the reader has.  The planet is made up of earth, and thus is called earth.<br />  I disagree with some of the arguments made dealing with technology.  I reread the passage, and the 'satillite&quot; resembles few, if any, satllites of the present day.  It is a bowl in the ground with a tower in the middle.  In the GROUND!   The forsaken knowing about the planets and stars is unsurprising.  How advanced would you call a culture that thinks the stars are &quot;fire flies caught up there in that big bluish black thing?&quot;   There are certain things expected from advanced civilization, and knowing what we do, if not more, is expected.  <br />These are rebuttles to your reasons, and I think there there are other non-earth reasons.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 21:25:04
subject: <b>Question.</b>
body:
If the War of Power was in the future why the HELL did they not use present technlogy?? Firearms such as pistol,rifle, Rockets and Nukes? they Used Swords and the one power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 23:37:41
subject:
<b>Surprised to see my words used! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
First of all, Your Master. Thank you for using my words, even if only a few, in your theory.<br />Mosk and Merc were obviously America and USSR during the Cold War, as the Spears of Fire were Nuclear Missiles.<br />Len, I think, too, was the Lunar Exploration Module (L.E.M.), though you forgot to mention that the Eagle that Len rode to the moon was The Eagle (Apollo 11) &quot;Houston, The Eagle has landed.&quot;<br />You also brought up many points that I had forgotten about the names and Moggy's ref to astronomy and space travel.<br />I personally think that WoT's AoL is more than just a little ahead of our time. I'd call the end of the age of myth at about two thousand years up time, and WoT's pesent era at about 10,000 years up time. (Keep in mind that the AoL ended 3,000 before relative present, or Rand's time).<br /><br />You gave a very good argument toward WoT being a future Earth.<br /><br />Now for Burr's remark: !!!!!!!!!!!. John Glenn was the fist American to orbit the Earth (Yuri Gagarin was the first person to do so and Alan Shepard was the first American in space. Gagarin's flight was on 12 April, 1961, lasting less than 2 hrs.. Shepard's was on 5 May, 1961, lasting 15 min 28 sec. Glenn's was on 20 Febuary, 1962, lasting 4hrs 55 min. What can I say. I'm into these things).<br />The first man on the Moon was Neil Armstrong, the second was Edwin 'Buzz' Aldrin on 20 July 1969.<br />Any way. I like the theory. Especially since I agree fully.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ptolomaeus<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Defender of Innocents<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Conservor of Useless Knowlege<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />CompTIA A+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Network+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Security+ Certified Professional<br />Microsoft Certified Professional <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 20:04:43
subject:
<b>Compiled rebuttals to rebuttals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
First, I think the ending would be quite original.  I'd never read deathgate, I'm just about to start, I'm sure other authors haven't read it either.  Thus, some may NOT know it's been done.  Unless they'd seen planet of the Apes.  But that was Sci-Fi, so it's different.  Yup.  Anyway, I'd prefer it if WoT was Earth.  But to each their own.<br /><br />My belief on Wot is Earth is that Earth is the supposed history of WoT...not that Wot was the inevitable future.  If I believed that, I'd be put in the looney bin (insanity - the inability to distinguish fantasy from reality).<br /><br />I have considered that RJ might have taken a lot of stuff from our history to flavour the world, but for one thing I think that RJ puts everything with purpose, such things are hard to put purpose to.  For another thing, it looks like he's used a LOT of Earth references for &quot;flavour&quot;.<br /><br />Umm...I don't get the disagreeing that Rand is Jesus' counterpart and claiming that he's actually the representation.  Suffice it to say that that's what I meant.<br /><br />Even if the theory is true, some of my postulates proving the theory could be false, I grant, merely perceived similarities.  But I do believe that a FANTASY book can be written with things that people don't relate to.  I mean, who relates to dragons?<br /><br />Firearms were not used because war was forgotten in the Age of Legends.  Remember how Lews Therin and Demandred would play swords, an ancient game they thought unrlated to war?<br /><br />Funny.  Recent Quickpoll had belief about 45% for me, 55% against.  This theory has about 75% for the theory!  Heh..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 00:35:44
subject: <b>AOL?</b>
body:
What is all of this about AOL?  So, let me get this straight, those AOL version 6.0 CDs I keep getting in the mail are actually cuendillar discs?  Seals of the Dark One's prison?<br /><br />Yes, it is excellent proof that our world is actually &quot;Randland&quot; (ugh, hate that term) in the past.<br /><br />Now, we just need to prove that Bill Gates is the Dark One himself...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-25 12:26:46
subject:
<b>Lewin - AOL means Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
It's an acronym.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 20:53:42
subject: <b>earth</b>
body:
I don't even know where to start on this one.  First off I am certain that RJ was not intending<br />to say that AOL and the third age is our future, he was putting this stuff in to prove one of<br />his main points if not his main point.  That as thousands of years go by we forget part of our history.<br />Look at real life a second.  An example, we thought for years the story of Troy was completly made up.<br />Well the city of Troy as been found.  Given of course that we can't know where exactly to draw the line of<br />what really happened, what is based on what happened, and what is there only for story purpose.  (Obviously<br />the Greek gods weren't real, for example.)  Many people are still looking for Atlantis.    <br /><br />RJ said in some interview I read that one of the best ideas he liked was when ancient cultures in real life<br />went away from what some believed at the time and said time was linear and not a circle.  <br /><br />I believe that &quot;Randland&quot; -I really hate that word if anything it should be earth just so people can stop calling it that-<br />is earth.  Obviously &quot;Randland&quot; doesn't exist, not REAL.  Lets say though we put our history in RJ's story and say<br />that the present is the 1st age.  Now RJ doesn't want to write about our time that would be stupid, we already know<br />it.  He puts in some hints and changes some of the names as mentioned in the theory to prove his point of how things<br />are lost or changed with the passage of time.  In our history we have stories of magic and sorcery (obviosly not real)<br />in the Wheel of Time we could say that these are stories of the age when people can channel.  We don't believe any of it<br />because it was lost.  We advance without channeling destroy what we know currently through nuclear war.  The people<br />who survive refuse to make weapons or use them to hurt others because we realize what we did with them.  Time <br />passes until the AOL when there are stories of when we used weapons, but they currently don't exist.  Some are<br />remaid and used during the war of power...... and so on until the third age where there are stories of the 1st age<br />things changed slightly in the stories... even less is known of it than the AOL because it is before it.  You could say<br />that the knowledge of the fact that time is linear is forgotten and people turn back to the old time and wheel thingy right before AOL.<br />Though I highly doubt that that is what is intended at all by RJ, I am just saying.<br /><br />The Wheel of Time is pure FANTASY, but it would be cool to add our own history, put it into the fantasy.  It makes the <br />the story more believable and it stresses on RJ's point of through time we mix up facts and forget part of our history<br />The forgetting our past is a reality in real life.  We don't know all that much of our ancestors thousands of years<br />ago, considering how much we don't know.  If ever a huge war was to break out and it distroyed a lot of<br />what we have today, I believe a whole bunch of information would be forgotten simply because there is so much to<br />know.  Also we know for example that we can build a space shuttle, but a very low percentage of the population could<br />actually build one or even know how. <br /><br />I conclude that &quot;Randland&quot; doesn't exist, anyone who thinks that needs go to the loony bin, it is not meant to represent our future or reality for that matter.  The<br />Similarities are there to strengthen RJ's point of &quot;we have lost things simply because of the passage of time&quot;<br />(this point exists in &quot;Randland&quot; and real life).  He also puts it there to make his story more believable, which I believe he <br />has stated before, something along the lines of, I am not going to resolve everything by the end simply because<br />that doesn't happen in real life and I want the story to be more real.  I do believe the referances to our time was put<br />there for a purpose and I believe &quot;Randland&quot; is meant to be Earth.  What would be wrong with that any way?  It adds<br />to the story.  And I don't believe it as anything to do with how the series is going to end.  It is just there to add a little<br />and it is not at all related to the main plot of the story. <br /><br />Sorry for all the run-ons.  I also think that after I used the word &quot;Randland&quot; this many times I refuse to use it again.


created: 2001-06-26 19:28:36
subject: <b>WoT is not our Earth</b>
body:
I don't believe WoTland is supposed to be a future or past Earth.  I think RJ has worked VERY hard to keep his fantasy series solely in the realm of fantasy.  Just because his epic series contains elements from reality doesn't mean he's trying to insinuate the series is a future Earth.  More likely, he is just using a literary device.  <br /><br />Let's check some examples: the parabolic dish with a metal spike that kills people who approach it.  Satelite dishes don't kill people who approach them.  In the AoL, maybe this parabolic dish was something made by the AoLers.  That doesn't mean it was a satelite dish from our age that somehow gained powers of life and death.<br /><br />Another example: similar sounding words, cities, people, and gods from our mythology and world.  RJ is probably drawing on these things because they help flesh out his story.  If a character is an Odin figuire, that doesn't mean he's literally the character is Odin or that Odin existed in our world because we have a mythological Odin.  Drawing on our world's mythology, words, etc. and tweaking what we already have is a great way to build credibility that the world we are reading about is real.  If RJ wrote a book and invented every character name, city name, or country name and tried to not tweak reality's words, then we would have characters like Ranadnasie al'theorisena of the two risnverns and Elayianae Trankarheid of Andseriason, not Rand al'Thor of the Two Rivers and Elayne Trankard of Andor.  Its just a literary tool that is very useful for story telling.  It's proof that RJ is from Earth, not that WoTland is a past or future Earth.<br /><br />More examples: what about AoL inventions that are similar to modern day things?  Eesh.  If you are trying to write about a society that was once very advanced but then regressed to medeival times due to a terrible world war, using elements from our modern times is very useful.  My impression of the AoL is that its an advanced civilization that sort of co-exists with nature without really conquering it.  Knowledge of the One Power is advanced and individual standards of living are pretty high, but none of the advances were made through an understanding of physics in the sense that it is understood in our reality.  Its just a really neat fantasy world.  Again, I think he just drew on elements of reality to give us an idea of how different the AoL was compared to the setting we have when we read the series.  It just builds credibility.  They didn't seem to have rockets that travel between stars or satelites that orbit the Earth, but they did have the ability to travel between worlds and realities with the One Power.  That sounds pretty bloody well advanced despite not having computers, rocket fuel, launch pads, electricity, etc.  The lights that keep going for 2 millenia after the AoL aren't running on electricity, they are running on something else.  But saying there was a world that had non-candle light source certainly sounds more advanced than a world lit only by fire (WoTland during the book series).  Its just a literary tool!<br /><br />Well, I can go on with examples, but I think you get the picture.  Enjoy.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Best premises,<br /><br />Jonathan<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-26 21:55:43
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
notice the things that are said about T'A'R and the Portal stones; namely the fact that parallel universes do exist in the WOT world. Any and all planes of existence merge in these places. Also parallel universes are just spin-offs from an original where different choices are made. Therefore I agree that WOT could be a spin-off of modern day Earth in a pure parody form. In one of his interviews RJ said that he got a lot of the names, places, and things from Earth mythology and legend, so it could also be that all of the proof that you are finding is just what RJ did to come up with names for the many different elements in his books. thanx


created: 2001-06-28 09:43:02
subject: <b>Thank you, slvrdragonwsy...</b>
body:
That was always my alternative theory - if Earth isn't WoT, it's a parallel.<br /><br />As to the guy who thinks WoT-is-Earth means insanity...well, I think you read my post because you reused my looney-bin phrase.  I hope nobody believes that WoT is real, but I think that Earth is supposed to be WoT's first age.<br /><br />Jcatbays: with all the evidence, how can you arbitrarily declare that RJ was more likely just using a literary device?  You can't just say it's more likely, there is no statistical evidence at all for either side of the argument.  As for your saying that names aren't proof of Earth - no offense, but you obviously didn't read my theory very thoroughly.  When Mat blew the horn, he found everything to become EXACTLY ANALOGOUS to present-day names.  Names can change.  And I certainly don't propose that two rivers become tjiow sdfjlhfda or whatever.  And the Odin similarities are evidence to support my case, and that remains even if it isn't proof of my case.  And, guy, read the theory, once again: THEY DID HAVE ROCKETS.  They landed on the moon and other planets.  They had satellites etc. which you currently claim they didn't have.  It says so, right in the books.<br /><br />I don't want to bash you, but really, before commenting you should know exactly what you're commenting on.  I can appreciate that you don't believe as I do in this theory, but you corrupt my points into something obviously stupid and wrong before arguing them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 15:31:30
subject: <b>Symmetry</b>
body:
I have always felt that there is a wonderful symmetry to the theory of Randland being our future (and maybe our past as well), and our time being Randland's past (and maybe future too).  Maybe we're on one side of the wheel of time, and Randland is on the other.  We get our myths and legends from them, and they get theirs from us.  Its beautiful!  And IMHO, arguments based upon science don't necessarily apply, because after all, ITS FICTION!


created: 2001-08-14 23:36:48
subject: <b>Earth Residues from beyond the Portals</b>
body:
So what if the references to Earthlike mythos and creations come from things carried over from portal stones?  Imagine ppl from AOL or poor souls afterwards experimenting with traveling via portal stones and landing on Earth or some version (all worlds are possible blah blah) of Earth and bringing the myths to Rand's world.  Smatterings of relics (like the Mercedez Benz piece) get carried over into the world of WOT.  BTW: &quot;Those who know the numbers of chaos&quot; could represent physicists working in chaos theory--another similarity with Earth.


created: 2001-08-15 16:17:31
subject: <b>Don't forget the white lines...</b>
body:
Rereading TGH and just got to the reference to the white lines in the sky that Rand sees in the world through the Portal Stone. Areoplanes?


created: 2001-09-10 02:58:08
subject: <b>Further Proof...</b>
body:
Couple of more reasons that Randland is Earth...<br /><br />1. The Seanchan battle armor is clearly Samurai armor.  The Seanchan helmet is also the icon for Seanchan chapters, and it is on the right side of the Legend on every color map on the inside cover, directly below Tear.<br /><br />2. Seanchan ships are Chinese ships.  They are described as flat, and having slotted sails.  Just like a Chinese Junker.  All in all Seanchan has more evidence of being like China then Shara does.<br /><br />3. Think about this.  The Borderlands and the Blight are cold, and everything north of Shayol Ghul is always ice.  Tear, Illian, and Ebou Dar are always hotter, people are wearing less clothes.  Sea Folk Islands are South of the continent, and we know they parade around almost naked most of the time.  Therefore, every single part of Randland, Including Shara and Seanchan, is in the Northern Hemisphere.  Yes powerful Aes Sedai, in their Breaking of the world, leveled mountain ranges and changed rivers and changed the face of the world, but did they move the entire continents?  Do you know what kind of power that would take?  All our nuclear power today cannot move continents.  In all of Earth's history the continents have mostly been in the Northern Hemisphere.<br /><br />I think this is more than compelling evidence.<br /><br />-kingmanor


created: 2001-09-21 21:30:02
subject: <b>WoT names</b>
body:
Nice theory, first of all.  I've been toying around with this idea, myself, and I noticed that a lot of the WoT names are slight variations on common modern-day names.  For instance--<br /><br />Rand- Randy/Randall<br />Elayne (well, this one's obvious)- Elaine<br />Mat (again, obvious)- Matt/Matthew<br />Siuan- Susan<br />Thom- Tom<br />Owyn- Owen<br />Alanna (well, gee...)- Alanna<br />Sammael- Sammuel<br />Moiraine- I dunno, maybe Morgan?<br />Morgase- again, possibly Morgan<br />Alivia- Olivia<br />Kari- Carey/Kerri/Carry<br />Elyas- Elias (yes, Elias is a real name.  I know someone from school named Elias)<br />Artur- Arthur<br />Gaebril- Gabriel<br />Katerine- Katherine/Catherine<br /><br />Obivously there are probably a lot more that I don't have listed here.  RJ could have just been having writer's block about names (heaven knows I have that problem more often than not) but this isn't an isolated case. BTW, if anyone could think of more WoT-ified names, I'd love to hear them!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 09:53:31
subject: <b>No!</b>
body:
NONONONONONO!!!  Samurai is JAPANESE!  NOT Chinese!  BAAAAH!!!<br /><br />Actually, I think Shara is the China of Randland, and Seanchan is the Japan.  If you think about it, Shara and Seanchan must be fairly close together (all the way around the back of RJ's globe) ala the sea of Japan.  The Japanese almost worshiped their Emperor/Empress.  I would like it so much if that turned out to be true.  <br /><br />*spouts random Japanese* Kinoo piza tabemasen desita!  Kumo ga dai kirai desu!  Neko ga suki desu!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 13:13:06
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
As to SharonToggle Names thingy:<br /><br />A couple monts ago I met a girl named Xiuan,<br />can you guess how it`s pronounced?<br />Siuan<br /><br />My how I laughed d=)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 21:39:14
subject: <b>Oh! I just thought of some more!</b>
body:
Some more wot-ified names:<br /><br />al'Lan-Allen<br />Logain-Logan<br />Melaine-Mellany<br /><br /><br />hmm.... if I can think of any more I'll post them here...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-13 11:41:57
subject: <b>oh, yeah....</b>
body:
And Olver is Oliver<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 15:47:27
subject: <b>Look at history</b>
body:
History tends to repeat itself, as we all know, which fits in tightly with what Jordan is saying, a wheel of time.  After all, there is that quote, those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them, which implies that humanity does indeed spiral around.  Just my 2 cents that I once again blurted out without thinking.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-02 19:45:47
subject: <b>mabey</b>
body:
Lots of authors like to link their work to the real world - Tolkein for example. <br />He repeated over and over again that the HObbit and LOTR came from a time long ago.<br /> Just read the HObbits prelude if you need proff. Jordan might want to - or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />ISLAN<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />MASTER OF ALL<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />CAUSER OF CHAOS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />THE ETERNAL JOKER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />THE WISEST OF ALL<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />He Who Returns Again<br /><br />&quot;Ultimatly there is only one truth - We dont know.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-09 17:46:08
subject: <b>It's not the age of legends, but it's earth</b>
body:
Somewhere in the series it states that as the wheel turns, and a certain place is passed, the events during that space along the wheel change slightly. This could mean that WoT land is the earth, only instead of an age or two ahead of us, it could be BILLIONS of ages ahead of us. This would make sense because people now can't channel or feel the source, but as people evolve, their minds could become more fine-tuned to the source, and eventually, allow them to be able to channel it. This would also explain the similarities between names of their past. the names didn't change that much since the time they are speeking of, but it has changed greatly from the names we know today.


created: 2001-11-30 15:36:40
subject: <b>Maybe it's just a book series?</b>
body:
Anyway, didn't I post the bit about the lances of fire being nukes and the eagle of fire being a spaceship on the MB?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-03 18:36:22
subject: <b>Okay Morons......</b>
body:
This theory should not even be on here because if you actually read the books it is quite obvious that the age before the AOL   IS our age,   I'm not even going to bother stating the hints that RJ drops along the way,  just pay more ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Walk in the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-12 22:05:29
subject: <b>true proof</b>
body:
Here is the only bit of proof you need in order to know that Randland is Earth. Before the Prologue of TGH there is an excerpt from the Karaethon Cycle. It says &quot;And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered,and the Shadow shall lie across the patter of the age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide . . . &quot; The Cycle comes from the age of legends, and openly refers to thier world as &quot;earth&quot; Earth is a name, and not just a term. World, and planet are terms used to describe vast bodies in space. Earth is one specific one. There you go, finaly true proof, and it was in fron of us the whole time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 21:19:15
subject: <b>Believer</b>
body:
Finally, I have been watching to see if anyone would start to piece certain things together. It is a theory that I think is reflected in the number of times that the word Earth is used to describe the world. A couple of different times in EotW.  I agree that our present reality was a previous age.<br />


created: 2002-05-02 21:25:12
subject: <b>Arguing simply to argue?</b>
body:
Mr Wandering Gambler.  The fact of the matter is that 'monsters' or things of the sort from our myths were not Nessicarily as rigidly formed and evil-incarnate as they appear to be due their descriptions.  For every telling of the story, facts became distorted.  Perhaps there never were any Dragons or Griffons, or anything of that sort....but perhaps there were, and perhaps they still do exist, even if in the holds of our minds.<br /><br />Also, to say the civilization was not advanced because the Commoners looked at the sky as a glow of fireflies in a blackish murky thing, says nothing of the civilization as a whole.  I mean hell....going by that, our civilization is not advanced what-so-ever...the Majority of the population doesn't know how to fix a flat tire, or change the oil on their car....to say nothing of knowing how the vehicle itself works, other than...you turn the key, and it goes!  Yippie....<br /><br /><br />Dragonfire, you contradicted yourself in that post...just FYI.  -smiles-  <br /><br /><br />Be well,<br />-Xaiver Daekon Roshai<br />


created: 2002-05-08 15:30:10
subject: <b>Like our world but not SAME</b>
body:
There are obviously more than enough connections and observations to say that RJ did not use many modern day references in his books.  Some things just can't be coincidences.  However, how could he move from the cyclical wheel of time to our own linear timeline.  What I mean is, why don't we remember any distinct ages every 3-5000 years.  Why don't we remember any armageddon last battles between good and evil?  We have documented humanity back tens of thousands of years.  I think that that is a pretty long Age.  All of RJ's Ages seem to have obvious beginnings and endings, yet ours doesn't.  Wouldn't we remember something of the last cosmic battle?  Basically, what I am saying is that yes, RJ does allude to many modern day things in his books, but it is not meant to be taken as solid truth; the books are supposed to be fun too, not a historically accurate document.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 18:19:49
subject: <b>umm... NO</b>
body:
i think it could be but there is one problem... HOW DOES RJ HAVE TIME TO PLAN ALL THIS? i think he decided to make it something like earth but if all of these thoeries were true he would need the lifetime of an AOL Aei Sedai! IT MAKES NO SENSE! HOW DOES HE SUPPORT HIMSELF AND STILL WRITE ALL THIS SUPPOSED BACKSTORY!? HOW???? (umm sorry about my little rant there but... i have a little to much time on MY hands too)<br /><br />Feel free to disagree (but you WILL be hunted down and dealt with.)  <br /><br /><br />mynamestodamnlong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />i may have just been joking about hunting you down if you piss me off... then again i may not have. So the question is... do you feel lucky?<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-06 19:45:01
subject: <b>calms down....</b>
body:
anyway alot of the proof could be coincidental, an airport = sho-wing landing site or a specific gateway opening site to prevent injuries/property damage. a Bowl with a tower that kills all that come close = defense mechanism. i just think that it would be sorta stupid to make the world earth. sorry bout my ranting. lets just forget it k?<br /><br /><br />mynamestodamnlong<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />breathe deep and repress...


created: 2002-06-27 12:06:19
subject: <b>Star Trek <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Who says Satelites can't have the power of Life and Death? I mean, they did it in Star Trek right?<br /><br />But anyway, isn't said spire of Life and Death the same one the Borderland rulers met at? Didn't they just say it was superstition, and they met there so that no one would bother them?<br /><br />And yes this theory is cool.


created: 2002-10-13 03:55:16
subject: <b>A few more additions to the Theory.....</b>
body:
....In (I believe) Fires of Heaven, Nynaeve is in the Panarch's Palace and is looking at the collection of atrifacts.  There is one that when she picks it up seems to be older than everything else there and represented pride and vanity ( I don't have the exact quote) The item she picked up was a circle with a three pointed star in it.  The hood ornament from a Mercedes-Benz<br /><br />Another part to the Rand-Jesus similarities.  The books have said many times, people either say that Nynaeve &quot;Won't be happy until she Heals somebody three days dead.&quot;  Or else a person won't believe Rand to be dead until that have &quot;Sat with the body for three days.&quot;<br />Can we all say Easter and Jesus rising from the Tomb on the third day.<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-31 20:51:06
subject:
<b>Great Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Hey I have been looking for this theory!  I agree!  but i belive that we (now) are still living in the 1st Age and have not made the transition to the AOL yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 22:04:29
subject: <b>Mixing of names, lost legends, etc.</b>
body:
Well I just read through the whole post and I figured I'd add my two cents...<br /><br />Much of our history (or present or future, I'm lost as to the flow of time now, I always thought it was an upside down funnel, and we had a clear view of choices, but everything behind us was fixed) could have been lost due to the Merk and Mosc fight, right?  I mean, if all the &quot;civilized&quot; countries blew themselves to nothing, wouldn't there still be humans left, say in Africa, or South America, or remote islands somewhere (Greenland, Iceland, god forbid if they don't blow this one up, but Canada?).  Wouldn't they then, not fully knowing our technology, and only having heard rumors of it from the start, mess words and phrases up into legends and myths?  Seems to me this is how an age passes.  Happened to Rome and Greece and Babylon and Myan, ad naseaum.


created: 2002-12-19 13:06:10
subject: <b>The Eagle has Landed</b>
body:
On that fateful day, the words &quot;The Eagle has Landed&quot; came through the radio.  Connection?  Len flew the eagle to the moon.


created: 2003-03-24 13:39:26
subject: <b>Nah nah, u've got it all wrong with the names</b>
body:
RJ, while being a good writers, was too lazy to think of new names, so he just fiddled around with existing ones.<br />Egwene-Ewgene<br />Mat-Mat<br />Perrin-Perry<br />Thom-Tom<br />So most names in the book (i believe) were a result of RJ not putting enough effort into it.


created: 2003-11-12 10:54:16
subject: <b>Mercedes?</b>
body:
The biggest reference that Randland IS Earth to me was the finding of that metal disc with the three lines radiating from the center, an obvious hood ornament from a Mercedes.<br /><br />As to the &quot;particulars&quot; of some of the &quot;legends&quot; differing from the actual facts of things in our age, well, folks, just exactly how much of legend do you honestly think is the way things REALLY happened?  Are you so naive to think that George Washington and Abraham Lincoln never told lies?  What about Paul Bunyan and Johnny Appleseed?  Folks, I have never seen a mile-tall blue ox.  And I doubt anyone else ever did, either.


created: 2004-02-16 16:53:05
subject: <b>RJ says it himself</b>
body:
I can definitely see parallels between our world and the world in the WoT, but as to whether they are our future and we&#8217;re their past or it&#8217;s vice versa I&#8217;m not sure.  I do know that RJ says himself in an online Q/A session (http://cgil.us today.com/mchat/20040106007):<br />Q: I&#8217;ve noticed that many names, items, etc are similar, if not the same, as what could be found in material relating to the Holy Grail, and other subject matter relating to Catholicism, the Crusades, etc.  Is this coincidence or intentional?<br />A: It&#8217;s intentional.  I have intended from the beginning that these books should be a sort of source for all of our legends and myths.  That is the conceit that I&#8217;m playing with here.<br /><br />


created: 2009-07-02 14:21:52
subject: <b>RJ had me on earth at 'Lenn'</b>
body:
i 'knew' wot was on earth, as soon as i read about Lenn flying to the moon in an eagle made of fire ... i knew it for a john glenn reference, immediately.<br /><br />it doesn't matter that john glenn didn't really go to the moon, or whatever ... the story of Lenn has presumably been told for umpteen thousand years. it should be expected to be corrupted as much or more than his name. the essentials are there; enough to let us know who RJ was talking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-windowsill gardener <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 11:12:16
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
I think Mat giving up half of the Light to save the world is a metaphorical expression. Even if he loses his eye, it won't be because he looked at the Empress (may she live forever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />).


created: 2001-06-22 12:27:52
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
with the Theorie that Mat will probably sacrifice his eye to bring the Seanchan to Rand. (There's something in the Karaethon Cycle that he will &quot;bind the Daughter of 9 Moons&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. But I don't agree that'll happen like that, I suppose there will a book which takes place mostly in Seanchan (Rand has to kneel before the Crystal Throne) and somewhere in this book Mat has to give his eye.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 13:30:33
subject: <b>You're wrong Wotan</b>
body:
Rand doesn't have to kneel before the Crystal Throne. It's a corrupted version of Prophecies of Dragon. Before the Consolidation the Karaethon Cycle in Seanchan was the same as in Wotland/Randland. It was &quot;adjusted&quot; to reflect the Seanchan way of thinking about the might of the Empress (may she live forever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)


created: 2001-06-22 15:20:51
subject: <b>Ahhh, but IS he wrong?</b>
body:
I have a feeling that not only the &quot;true&quot; Prophecies of the Dragon will come about, but the seanchan ones also (as well as the sea folk, amayar (sp?), aiel, etc prophecies)....<br />To say that the original prophecies are the only true ones is like saying the bible is the only holy book.... you've gotta include the qur'an too


created: 2001-06-22 18:44:09
subject: <b>Seanchan Prophecies?</b>
body:
I don't think they are corrupted, we know that the Seanchan use the foretelling talent of the Damane, too. And there were also  Aes Sedai in Seanchan who could have written Prophecies for Rand before there even was the Seanchan Empire. There are Prophecies in all parts of the World and he has to fullfill them all. But maybe aquickpoll can answer this question!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 02:00:20
subject: <b>Wotan</b>
body:
I think Jordan has said that there won't be a book based mainly in Seanchan, Shara, or anywhere else but the mainland WoT-place.


created: 2001-06-23 21:06:20
subject: <b>ikkje s&#248;ren</b>
body:
Jordan has said that he will write about seanchan and Sarha no more than he has already. something like that anyaway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 00:25:51
subject: <b>The Empress and her throne</b>
body:
I though that the man who was given the honor of gazing upon the empress said he always was talking to someone on a throne behind curtains,  Not positive, but that sounds like a better plan than covering the eyes of all of the servents/ministers/etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:18:06
subject: <b>Another good theory...</b>
body:
but my gut says no.  He loses his eye for something of greater import than speaking to the queen.<br /><br />Too bad RJ won't set anything in Shara (I already knew he wouldn't, but you brought it up again).  That's about my favourite location in the books.  Witness my email address - cedlarpugsa@dragonmount.com.  Cedlar Pugsaki is a fictional character I created, an escaped male Ayyad from Shara to the Black Tower.  An unlikely story, perhaps, but everything was explained and all the holes filled in.<br /><br />Don't worry, I have a more normal @wotmania.com address, I just think that a fictional character is more likely residing near dragonmount than near whatever a &quot;wotmania&quot; is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 10:56:56
subject: <b>wrong- metaphor for odin</b>
body:
I believe Mat is partially taken from the norse god Odin. Hear me out. I know from a couple of different places that Odin hanges himself on the world tree (tree of life) to gain knowledge. So does Mat (albiet unwillingly) Odin also give up an eye. Its simple! Odin is the god of the slain and battle so the Band makes sense. think about it.


created: 2001-06-22 15:33:46
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
that was a well thought out theory. it gave me a headache just trying to think about it. good job.<br />


created: 2001-06-22 18:37:33
subject: <b>Well, it's kinda difficult to comment but I try anyway</b>
body:
So there are certain parts of the theory I agree wholeheartly and which formulated very good. But there one things I can't agree. Time in Tel. flows forward only, you can't time travel with Tel., this is a contratiction to the pattern concept. The realTime telTime function is nonlinear, but strictly increasing.  Thus I'm still not convinced that Olver is a normal incarnation of GC, but maybe he was somehow ripped out of Tel.,too. (Olver looks very similar to GC in Tel.)  He leaves Tel. before Birgitte, maybe he crossed Moggies way, and she did the same to him as to Birgitte.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 01:55:12
subject: <b>Damn......Damn....</b>
body:
That was one hell of a theory. I think the one thing that really impressed me though was the idea that Lews may be talking to Rand in the past, and Rand talking to Lews in the future. I'd like to hear more on you theories of this.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Stokes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-23 15:55:43
subject: <b>GREAT THEORY</b>
body:
I actually agreed with most of it.  The whole Soul Trinity explanations seems plausible.  And the &quot;backward timeflow&quot; in TAR seems as the best explanation so far of Olver=Cain (If he is at least).  The part about LTT having alThor in his head seems right too.  A couple of times he even said something like &quot;it wouldn't be so bad if only I did not have a madman in my head&quot;. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated. <br />-The Remarkable Rocket, Oscar Wilde</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 19:12:02
subject: <b>The whole Lews may be talking to Rand in the past</b>
body:
The fact that Lews makes comments to/shows emotion towards things and events that transpire in the present story kinda conflicts with that part of your theory. Like his fear/weariness of Cadsune and his hatred and insistent on killing Taim etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-26 00:48:36
subject: <b>Conflicting timelines etc.</b>
body:
The idea of Rand and LTT carrying out their quests simultaneously sounds really impressive, but that can't work because the madness of the taint was having voices in the head of the channeler.  That wouldn't have happened to LTT until after all of his great deeds.  Then came the madness, and the killing, and the hey hey hey it hurts everyone.  For Rand and LTT to be cross-accessing timelines LTT would have to be insane to begin with.  This idea could also be plagued by the fact that no one knows how long LTT lived after the sealing of the bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 10:23:39
subject: <b>Well thought out theory</b>
body:
I quite enjoyed reading it, and it seems plausible to me as well.  Have any more theories?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Loki <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> A Wily Fox <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 16:37:18
subject: <b>On timelines...</b>
body:
Well My thought on LTT and Rand wasn't that there conversation was happening accross time (i.e. Lews Therin in the past saying the things that Rand hears in present day). I was thinking that perhaps LTT in his final days may have heard Rand as a voice in his head. In other words a part of Rand may have been driving Lews batty toward the end of the AoL.<br /><br />   By the way Loki yes I do have some other theories. Some have been posted in various categories (such as my tongue in cheek discourse on 'Pillow Friends' in the misc. section) others have not as of yet. I hope more get posted when the admins have time, particularly the one comparing Elaida to a literary figure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


