# w_comment

created: 2004-12-21 07:58:52
subject: <b>Very late replies</b>
body:
I beg pardon fo so late response (maybe so late that it becomes useless), I just have forgotten about haveng submitted a theory. And your replies were so interesting and valuable, that I want kick myself for not seeing it at time (why posting of theory if missing a good feedback?). Also forgive me my disastrous english.<br /><br />I'm not pretending that there are no valid arguments for the Hammer left: actually there are, and it's still possible that the right choice for Perrin would be the Hammer and giving up the axe. But there are too much good things assotiated with the axe and with controlling it, and there are some not so good things assotiated with the hammer. Whatever Perrin chooses there would be a price to pay, there would be some bad consequences among the good ones. I don't see harmless way for Perrin to walk. I cannot believe that Jordan will resolve the plotline with a perfect solutions and that the good and would be not spoiled with some bad and troublesome aspects - it would be just not like Jordan.<br /><br />I'm stating however that the reasons to choose the axe and not the hammer would make more sense and are closely connected with what Perrin must really do before the last Battle, during it and right after it, while the reasons for choosing the hammer imply either pure ideal with problematic connection to reality or Perrin choosing simple private life (i.e. him not being ruler, nor leader of wolves, nor connected with the spear-Aiel, nor still married to Faile) what would mean giving up a great number of his responsibilities by now. In that situation choosing of the hammer would leave too much ends loose, and that will be perfect condition of very serious mistakes that can cause doom for the whole world. While choosing the axe is something with visible dangers and everything needed to make the choice of the axe successfull is to stand against these visible dangers of the path. Also giving up the hammer is corresponding to the evolution all other main heroes from Two Rivers have - all they develope from the private life in Two Rivers to public life of importance for the whole world. In that efveryone of them have to sacrifice some traits that are obviously good, but that just cannot exist together with what is needed to be done for the sake of the world. All that makes the choice of the Axe much better candidate for the right choice.<br /><br />The hammer is still connected with ttoo much good, and the Hammer must not be forgotten. I still agree that it must not been given up entirelly. But I'm stating that the hammer must not been choosen before the axe, because that will be an inadequate choice. A choice to give up the axe will be choice with good intentions and with doom in consequence. And choosing the axe (without forgetting the hammer) will be admitting the responsibilities Perrin already has, and taking conscious control over it.<br /><br />to Kronik:<br />&quot;i feel that the hammer will represent him &quot;forging&quot; a nation. I also like the argument that him throwing the axe away and becoming the &quot;blacksmith&quot; again will mean the Shiado won't be able to kill him.&quot;<br />The problem here is, that I cannot see how Perrin could choose bot the ways of forging a nation <b>and</b> the way of Leaf. The both ways of life exclude each other: tinkers and dai'sain are never rulers, and rulers allways have the responsibility to defend their people. Perrin can either forge a nation in the future or choose the way of Leaf, but not the both. Also he maybe could come in Shaido camp as &quot;blacksmith&quot; (I doubt however that this would give him freedom enough, Shaido will just throw him away without hurting him, and if he hifghts he would be no more treated as blacksmith) or he could lead the armies he made to follow him after Shaido, but not the both. All these choises will have price. Ind I think that the price of the hammer will be much worse than the price of the axe.<br />Until now Perrin already made a lot for building a nation: the Two Rivers changes, Ghealdan, the loyality of lord Dobrain to Rand etc. Perrin's forged this unity not using the hammer but using the axe. The axe already proved it as the tool to forge the nation. The axe prove itself to be good in this building of nation. Why it wouldn't be good for it also later?<br />The Hammer as tool to forge a nation and a peace makes me to think about Hawkwing. Hawkwing was the &quot;Hammer&quot; who forged a nation and peace. But exactly Hawkwings work was actually a peace and nation made by the means of war. And Hawkwing's peace doesn't stand. Paradoxally the Hammer's way to create peace is the way of War.<br /><br />to phaethonin:<br />&quot;The Hammer is indeed a symbol, but ISH might only have been trying to get Perrin to more fully choose the axe to promote his loss of self, the descent into 'berserker' that you touch on in your theory.&quot;<br />I agree, that when it's about Ishamael, we never have to forget that he is known to be a supreme liar and a great contributor of DO's reputation of being &quot;Father of Lies&quot;. But I have some reasons to believe that in this particular case Ishamael wanted from Perrin exactly what he proposed. When Perrin denies Ishamael's offer, he for a moment senses Ishamael's anger for Perrin's refusal, and also Ishamael's attempt to hide his anger. It's not Ishamael's style to make himself look like he has weaknesses, so more likely the anger was real. Also in this scene ishamael attempted to put Perrin's mind under subconscious control and to drug him with something (Perrin feels dizzy and some strange feelings to accept, when Ishamael makes his offer), so in this case Ishamael would not need to play on Perrin's strong will, but rather to lull his will by playing on Perrin's own attachments. In the period of time of this scene Ishamael is continuously using a specific tactic against all the three ta'veren: he is seducing them to agree to take the Shadow's side (what he obviously wants) or he treatens them. But he never in this period uses the tactic of Sorilea. It is just not his tactic for the moment even if he is capable of it. I don't know why he choose exactly this tactic, but he chose open seducing combined with treatening. And he chose to weaken the ta'veren's will and put them in shock, not to play on their stubbornness.<br /><br />&quot;The axe is the tool that has brought Perrin into a position of prominence; i.e Lord of the Two Rivers, Emissary of the Dragon Reborn, but it is the Hammer that will secure his legend&quot;<br />Among wolves it's the Axe that secures his legend once forever. Also it would be valid for the Ogier. But the Hammer, until now it's only Perrin himself who assotiates his life with Hammer. All other around him prefer to see the axe as his attribute.<br /><br />And Axe is very good a symbol for building a nation. In a land of woods it's more important building tool than hammer. In WoT where the &quot;Builders&quot; are the Ogier, and Ogier are known to have axes not hammers, it's better symbol of building tool than a hammer. And even if Perrin's axe is visibly for everything made for war, the Axe is the only kind of weapon that can be effectively used for peacefull purposes. It's very significant that Perrin's weapon is the only not-only-weapon kind of weapon.<br /><br />to Shadow_killer_wolfbrother:<br />&quot;That this is a conclusion with a theory fit around it. It was clear to me in the first couple sentences that you had made your mind up which you wanted Perrin to choose and highlighted a bunch of evidence (term used loosely) in favor of that desire while discounting points against. I give you credit for mentioning opposing points, but mentioning and dismissing opposing points is essentially the same as never mentioning them at all.&quot;<br />I'm not pretending to give a neutral judgement about the case, obviously I'm arguing for the Axe. Tha fact was that the idea first came to me when I became to doubt in some of the traditional arguments for choosing the Hammer (Peace symbol, Builder symbol, Perrin's feelings about them, the Way of Leaf connection) and it fitted too good with the numerous pro-Axe aspects. So it was not ignoring of pro-Hammer arguments what has driven me. I don't have desire to discredit the Hammer, actually I like the hammer and the scene with he blacksmith of Tear is one of my favorites. But I have the impression that too often the arguments for the Axe are unjustly ignored in favor of a desire to see Perrin in the Way of Leaf or in some no-problems happy-end. And I think my arguments for the axe are not unimporatnt. By mentioning of the opposite points I wanted to show an way for them to co-exist with the pro-Axe interpretation without being dismissed. I wanted to find a good place for the Hammer in my pro-Axe theory. I wanted to show that the most usual arguments for the Hammer are not speaking against the Axe.<br /><br />&quot;You talk about the axe and hammer being symbols then try to back up your view with little details. Nearly everyone who reads the WOT series gets the feeling that the axe is symbol of evil (however necessary at times) and the hammer is the ideal (the goal). This feeling can't be supported by quotes because it's in the hundreds of descriptions of the two objects and all of the Perrin POV's. You're using exceptions to try to prove a rule.&quot;<br />I don't think that Perrin's feelings are the best proof for the real meaning of the symbol. Rand hates him being the Dragon, Mat hates him being a hero and being responsible and having the memories in his head, Nynaeve hates herself being an Aes Sedai... everybody has strong feelings against his/her destiny in the series. So I don't think that the axe being evil is the &quot;rule&quot;, it's just Perrin's way to perceive it. And I never had the impression that the Hammer is an obvious symbol for goal. The hammer is a symbol for perrin's good roots, for his past, and even Perrin perceives it so. Perrin's hopes about the hammer in his future are hopes that he will come back as if he had never went to the adventures, to come back home without being changed, and I cannot see how these hopes can be realistic after the changes already happened in Two Rivers, after Faile and after his connection to the fate of several countries. I haven't seen any connection between the Hammer and any future of &quot;forging nations&quot; &quot;building peace&quot; or any other great projects. But there are lot of cases when Perrin assotiates the hammer with doing not the ideal but what the miserable conditions offer. The only ideal aspect of the hammer is actually nostalgic, but never something with importance for the world. Most often Perrin assotiates the hammer with private life (good or not) away from any responsibilities for the broad world, but doing only things a private person has to care about.<br /><br />to Pathfinder<br />&quot;The key to understanding the &quot;AXE&quot; vs. &quot;HAMMER&quot; for Perrin is to recognize that the Axe represents violence and war while the Hammer represents building and peace.&quot;<br />I disagree. The Axe is really representing violence, but it is not so simple as representing the awfull bad violence. The manner Jordan describes the fate of the Da'shain and the Tinkers made it clear that this fate cannot be the solution of the world's problems. Jordan also said in some interviews that his books is about the balance between the necessary and the ideal that must be made for the good to be effective and real. For example:<br />Quote from RJ: <b>&quot;There are a number of themes that run through the series. There's the good old basic struggle between good and evil, with an emphasis on the difficulty in recognizing what is god and what is evil. There's also the difficulty in deciding how far you can go in fighting evil. I like to think of it as a scale. At one end you hold purely to your own ideals no matter what the cost, with the result that possibly evil wins. At the other end, you do anything and everything to win, with the result that maybe it doesn't make much difference whether you've won or evil has won. There has to be some sort of balance found in the middle, and it's very difficult to find.&quot;</b><br />All his good characters with good input in the world's history maintain some controlled violence. Rejecting violence at all leads to victory of the evil in Jordan's world. The violence ought be under control and only when needed but it must be there in WoT ethics. Only it must be never forgotten that violence is never a no-problem thing.<br /><br />And I completely disagree that the Hammer is a symbol of peace. It's not. It's only symbol of the good old private life away of the demands of the global situation. The Hammer is a symbol of insulated life. <br /><br />to Heiti:<br />&quot;The way the books present the issue makes me believe that while the axe is not necessarily a bad tool, it's not the final one. Your theory brings up a lot of circumstancial evidence that might or might not convince me that the axe is Perrin's final choice&quot;<br />I don't think that the fatefull choice is a &quot;final&quot; choice for all the Perrrin's life, it's rather to be a choice until the Last Battle that is so decisive. Until the Last Battle Perrin will be all the time in the situation to have to do with ruthless enemies and will be needed to defend the others from raging violence. If he gives up the axe in such circumstances, he will not stop the violence, but will become dependent of followers who will use violence wittout his control and without him to have the chance to see the real extent of his influence. Perrin will be unable to lead people in this hard times without to be a defender. And perrin never assotiated any kind of leadership with the Hammer. <br />But even if it's a &quot;final choice&quot;, I can see how a choice of the Axe could be a choice to build a peacefull world - it's keeping the tool of violence under control and never forgetting about the danger while using the axe for peacefull creative tasks (Perrin's people are from a place in woods, and building there needs axes, because they use timber to build). But I just cannot find indications how Perrin's use of Hammer would become a symbol of building. What would he do for to become a myth? Return to his private forgery? What would this give to the people? And what from the things Perrin sees in his hammer could contribute to future influence for the whole world. The only option I see for Perrin to choose the hammer would be for him to choose a private life far from world's demands. Is that perrin's destiny? I strongly doubt.


created: 2005-01-15 21:11:40
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
<b>1. Peaceful tool - Bloody weapon:</b> I don't get your argument at all. Having his anger under control? How? What I see is that having a weapon at your side makes the immediate reaction to anything a violent one. There is an old saying: &quot;When you have a <i>+5 flaming longsword</i>, the solution to every problem will seem to involve hacking or burning <i>something</i>&quot;. So this is certainly against the axe.<br /><br /><b>2. Old life - New life:</b> Nonesense. The fatal flaw with rand right now, his forgetting laughter and tears, comes from his destruction of his former life, in order to spare others. Scorching away your past won't help. Pro hammer.<br /><br /><b>3. Choices already made:</b> Nothing bad has happened from him using the axe, except that he feels he's losing his humanity. Nothing bad has happened from him using the hammer. I see this as a strong point for the hammer, losing his humanity is an important matter with Perrin, remember that Wolfbrother from <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>.<br /><br /><b>4. Rage symbol:</b> When Perrin is in a rage, he instinctively reaches for his axe, not his hammer. And to this point, letting no emotion show on your face has always been described as being a quality, so blind rage probably is not. Another point against the axe.<br /><br /><b>5. Conscience symbol:</b> I'm still stunned how you managed to arrive to that conclusion on <i>this</i> point, of all points. The axe reminds him of how cruel he has become. He sees the axe, remembers how cruel he is, until he convinces himself that he <i>is</i> cruel. And by that time it's too late. Definately against the axe.<br /><br /><b>6. Hasty reactions - Methodical approach:</b> Nonesense. Being methodical has nothing to do with Rand making himself harder. They're two wholly different concepts. Being impulsive is, however, the province of Mat. And something that has been continually throwing him into trouble. In fact, Mat is reputed for two things: Dumb luck, which Perrin does not have, and battle strategy. That is, planning battles in advance. So Mat's greatest achievements are through his planning, as opposed to the trouble he gets himself into when he's impulsive. So isn't that clearly indicating that Perrin should continue his methodical approach? Pro hammer.<br /><br /><b>7. Hope symbol:</b> So you admit that the hammer is a symbol of hope, and because it is a symbol, it restricts his hoping ability, so he should throw hope away? In what parrallel universe does that make sense?<br /><br /><b>8. Builder symbol:</b> You've admitted this was pro hammer, so I won't get into everything you said afterwards.<br /><br /><b>9. Ishamael:</b> You mean the same Ishamael who spends <i>The Great Hunt</i> trying to convince Rand that he is the Dragon Reborn? By your logic, anyone who supports Rand as Dragon Reborn serves the Shadow... I think that invalidates this point sufficiently.<br /><br /><b>10. Verin:</b> I think Verin's the smartest Aes Sedai we've seen to date. And the most dangerous. She is also completely dedicated to having Rand win the Last Battle. This supports the hammer, doesn't it?<br /><br /><b>11. Wolves connection:</b> Yes, probably. But this brings up another choice. Will Perrin run with the wolves, like Elyas, and choose the Axe, or will he take the Hammer and become a lord among men? I vote Hammer on this one as well, but other opinions are acceptable.<br /><br /><b>12. Aiel connection:</b> Ummm... Gaul in a cage was in <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>. That's how they met. And was followed by more bloody Whitecloaks. The axe is responsible for all his Whitecloak troubles, and by association, the Whitecloaks' coming to the Two Rivers and the death of his family. In a way, the axe cost Perrin his family. But that's not related to the Aiel, and I don't see any important Aiel connection. But I still want to point out that you've omitted the Children of the Light, a very important part of Perrin's story arc.<br /><br /><b>13. Tinkers connection:</b> You've admitted this was against the axe. Personally, I'd love to see Perrin turn to the Way of the Leaf. Perhaps to atone for breaking Aram. But that would cause a lot of problems.<br /><br /><b>14. Aram connection:</b> No, not pro axe. You've gone from &quot;The way of the axe has made Aram into something that utterly freaks me out, compared to which Rand is soft as butter in sunlight&quot; which is definately pro hammer, to &quot;Without the axe, Perrin would have to let his followers fight instead of him.&quot;, as if his followers weren't already fighting. And came out with pro axe. Come on, you could at least make an effort to seem impartial.<br /><br /><b>15. Ogier connection: </b>Let me get this straight, the Ogier way is the right way, the Ogier do not like axes, in fact, an axe's main purpose is cutting down trees. So the Treebrothers obviously don't like them. And &quot;putting a long handle to your axe&quot; is definately not a compliment. And you got pro-axe because of... what? Because Loial has actually used an axe? So the Ogier way is the right way, but when they behave un-Ogierlike and use an axe, that is what you're going for? Come on, man, this is definately against the axe.<br /><br /><b>16. Hawkwing connection:</b> Unless Perrin chooses Ishamael as advisor, I think your arguments are worthless. And you say that despite Hawkwing's dream of one nation and one people, which he nearly achieved, and is pro-hammer, you think there's more contre the hammer because of events that occurred after his death? Let me put this straight: <b>You have no power over events after you die. Once you're dead, you can't do anything.</b> Once again, strongly pro-hammer.<br /><br /><b>17. Faile connection: </b>Well, I am forced to agree with you here. Faile definately supports the axe. Of course, seen the number of Faile-haters ( of which I am not part ) around here, that might not be aiding your cause <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><b>18. Bubble of Evil in Tear:</b> Quite simply, the axe tried to kill him and Faile, so it's pro-axe. But wait, let me go even further with this: Mat was attacked by his cards, representing his gambling. Gambling is usually viewed as a moral weakness. Similarily, Rand was attacked by his reflections, coming from mirrors, at the time where he had become the Dragon Reborn, and was living in Tear in luxury. The reflections represent vanity, a capital sin. I think the Bubbles of Evil are channeled through the easiest point of access between Shai'tan ( evil ) and the characters, that the effects of the bubble were represented by their own greatest flaws. How's that for an argument? I might even want to get it to the Theory Post! Anyway, clearly against the axe.<br /><br /><b>19. Legends for the next Age:</b> Huh? Thor's hammer can be interchanged with the axe ( or so you claim, I have not seen this myself, but it is possible ) so you get... pro-axe? Because it is an available replacement? What the heck?<br /><br />Well, I think that pretty much wraps things up. I'll never pretend that I had not already decided that the hammer would be a better choice, but one thing comes out of the above. Where you have to take a twisted, convoluted logic worthy of a sophist to declare the axe better, I can usually point to the hammer in a sentence.<br /><br />And you still didn't include the Children of the Light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 15:05:37
subject: <b>About the Faile connection...</b>
body:
I'd like to change my reply. Faile would obviously support Perrin whether he chose axe, hammer or vorpal spork. So it's irrelevant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-24 17:25:51
subject: <b>Simplified...</b>
body:
Perrin Hates the Axe. He disregarded Eylas's advice and threw it away for selfish reasons. He couldn't deal with the way it made him feel.<br /><br />Its not as if he stopped killing people...he just uses the hammer now. <br /><br />He's using a weapon he likes using in favor of one he hates using. This goes counter to Eylas advice and will come to a bad end. Using the axe helped maintain his humanity because while he was using something he hated he was never able to fully loose himself.


created: 2004-02-11 11:25:24
subject: <b>Very entertaining read, but I don't agree</b>
body:
Don't believe that the Creator will save the pattern.<br /><br />It's Rand's job to fight and beat the DO, otherwise he would be quite useless.<br />The point of the story is after all that Rand is the prophecied champion of the Light, the &quot;ancient enemy&quot; as the DO says in LoC; he is the only person who can save mankind. <br /><br />That your only mention of &quot;Rand&quot; in a theory about the end of the series is in the term &quot;Randland&quot;, shows in my view that you ignore his central position as the main character. <br /><br />Furthermore, I don't think that the DO will break the Wheel since this is exactly what Rand has to prevent, and there are already enough proofs that Rand will be successful (especially the 4th Age texts).  <br /><br />Even if all seals are broken and the DO is free again, he can't immediately destroy the Wheel. <br />He also couldn't do it in the AoL, though there were also no seals to hold him.<br /><br />Therefore I think that after all seals are broken at TG, Rand will somehow manage not only to seal the prison again, but to close the Bore. <br />This way the DO will be imprisoned again as he was by the Creator before Lanfear freed him in the AoL. <br />


created: 2004-02-11 20:43:33
subject: <b>Selective hearing.</b>
body:
It seems to me you chose a couple ideas in history to &quot;prove&quot; your points and chose to ignore all the other religions and myths RJ likes to incorporate into his story. Also, the story isn't about the creator vs. the DO. If anything, it's about the Wheel vs. the DO. RJ states many times that the creator doesn't interfere. He doesn't weep for one dead flower in his garden. He created the wheel and it's the wheel's job to weave the dragon, and people to help him, to defeat the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 07:32:48
subject: <b>I liked it</b>
body:
I think you should of said someting about Rand but I think you got the background of what might happen and just didn't go into detail of how it will happen. Which is fine. Plus I like to disagree with Etzel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 09:38:23
subject: <b>The DO was put outside the Pattern</b>
body:
Not in the earth.<br /><br />If the Wheel were broken, there would no longer be a world, and my heart would be broken by RJ. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />While I do like agreeing with Etzel, and do in this post, we do have our differences. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-15 14:39:47
subject: <b>interesting but nah...</b>
body:
&quot;each reader will be thouroughly convinced that these events did happen in THIS world, we are direct decendents of THESE characters, that there WAS a Time when Aes Sedai influenced great rulers, and all remnants of the great cities have been swallowed by the earth.&quot;<br /><br /><br />I agree it's fun to relate the world of WOT to our world, but I think any attempts to prove that they're the same are misdirected at best. It's a fantasy story, nothing more. <br /><br />


created: 2004-02-16 21:55:31
subject: <b>so the creator</b>
body:
Was knitting a jumper, but ends up with a really long scarf?<br /><br />Interesting<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-19 21:03:14
subject: <b>Ja, I like it.</b>
body:
i like it, i like everything where the world does end and starts again, i love evangellion, if that has any relevance.<br /><br />This is a good theory i think, i just posted somehting utterly crazzzyyy so i cant criticize - i like this, i can see how RJ could fit it in if he chose, but because i think WOT will never be that origional (face it, we like it cos it combines familliarity with a touch of the unknown..as opposed to sheer oddness), i doubt its likelyhood.


created: 2004-02-23 23:18:54
subject: <b>You brought it up...</b>
body:
I think you really messed up with the evil thing and connecting it to our world. Christians, which includes all who believe Jesus is wholely God and salvation through faith and not works, not just but including Baptists,don't or at least shouldn't see evil as a thing but the lack of something: good. Genesis states clearly that God made everything good and therefore did not create sin, or otherwise broken or things that don't work, such as us. Gos gave a choice to Adam, the garden of Eden, and Adam chose wrong. Thats why even &quot;small things&quot; or things that don't seem to hurt anyone, like lust, are called sin because they are against Gos's plan. Also its not going to church and reading the Bible taht makes u saved or good or whatever, but if u want to hear about that ull ahve to im me or something.


created: 2004-02-28 20:23:46
subject: <b>linear time</b>
body:
time is not necesarily linear today, or ever.  I am sure a few of today's top physicists would like to argue that time is indeed circular.


created: 2004-03-05 16:11:11
subject: <b>Creative idea</b>
body:
Seems improbably that the series will actually end this way, but it's a creative theory nontheless.<br /><br />-OA


created: 2004-07-30 09:35:13
subject: <b>Time is linear</b>
body:
Time is already linear it is only the ages that cyclic.  As a student of Physics here is a way of thinking about these things.  Imagine a wheel and this wheel has a marker attached to it at the outer edge and in the dead center.  This wheel is say touching a glass wall in front of you so as the wheel spins it draws on the glass so that you can see the markings.  Some gives the wheel motion and it starts to draw lines on the wall of glass in front of you.  You will see two things, first the marker that is attached to the center of the wheel will give you a straight line on the glass wall, second is other marker at the outer edge will give you a design that is a bunch of humps, these humps represent the rise and decline of each age.  I will be posting a theory hopefully later on this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-27 17:23:30
subject: <b>the wheel might actually break!</b>
body:
Hi fans,<br />Many of you might be missing out on something.  You owe it to yourself to listen to the audio interview at the end of Knife of Dreams.  RJ actually addresses this flat out.  If you haven't heard it,  please go to your local library and check this out!!  It will be fun to listen to,  I promise!  RJ actually says &quot;the Greeks gave us the great gift that time is linear, and that IS a great gift because if time is circular, then change is impossible&quot;.<br />He chose time to be a wheel in WOT to show us where myths &amp; legends come from.  Get the interview<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />More to the point,  the Dark One has killed Rand/LTT thousands of times before, because time is like a wheel in the story. I don't think RJ is writing one huge long novel about the 10,037th time that Rand loses.  So it IS a possibilty that time will become linear, or something happens to the wheel when Rand finally wins!<br /><br />take care all,  but I think there IS a possibility here....<br />


created: 2004-02-11 09:45:34
subject: <b>Really like the theory</b>
body:
A return of Moiraine would surely make Rand happy. <br />Would love to see if Rand laughs &amp; cries when he sees Moiraine.<br /><br />The problem is that Min saw that Cadsuane (not Moiraine) has to teach Rand and the Asha'man something what they won't like learning from her. <br /><br />In the talk with Sorilea it becomes clear that Cadsuane wants to teach Rand to become more human again. <br />Or what do you think Cadsuane will teach Rand &amp; the Asha'man? <br /><br />Because if already Moiraine's return would make Rand human again, Cadsuane had nothing to do with it but has to teach something different, although she sees the problem of Rand being to hard and apparently wants to change it. <br /><br />Anyway, thumbs up for a very nice theory!


created: 2004-02-11 10:25:26
subject: <b>What Cadsuane will teach</b>
body:
There are several theories stating that Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'man something other than laughter and tears. I've always been more inclined towards these theories than the one saying she will teach laughter and tears. It just seems too obvious, and besides, it's primarily Rand who has to be taught these things, not the Asha'man.<br /><br />Anyway, that's just my opinion, but it speaks in support of this theory. I like it a lot!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 13:54:02
subject: <b>What Cadsuane Is Going To Teach</b>
body:
First, this is a good theory. I personally believe that what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Ashamen that they won't like is simply that they CAN trust some Aes Sedai.


created: 2004-02-11 17:22:54
subject: <b>Love the theory</b>
body:
I agree with those who say Cadsuanes lessons will not be laughter and tears.I think Caddie will teach em humility and respect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 19:07:09
subject: <b>I like this theory.</b>
body:
It supports my idea that Cadsuane will not teach all the Ashaman laughter and tears. Some of them are not in need of it, for instance.  Plus it's got to be something they don't like.<br /><br />Cadsuane is the only Aes Sedai we know of who helped capture Taim. I think when she finally meets him again she's going to notice that he has changed. this is what Rand and all the Ashaman are not going to like - Taim is not what he was,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-11 19:30:50
subject: <b>Hey, finally a theory that Cadsuane would not be the one.</b>
body:
I could never buy that Cadsuane will teach Rand laughter and tears, and that's because I don't think that all Ashaman need this, so Cadsuane will teach something else. I don't know if Moiraine's return would do that, but it's a nice way. Personally I think it would be his baby or him finding that he has a baby that may change him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 06:02:06
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
It's really great. <br /><br />I read a simmilar plot in a comic book, that time about a man that lost his strenght for each important descicion he made to the chair of responsibility he was sitting in. For each chair of responsibility after the first, he lost more of his strenght. in the end he realized what had happened, and started to collect all his chairs of responsibility putting them in his old bus he used before he became an important person, sitting in them, and each time, the energy was sent to the next. When he found the last chair, nothing more happened.<br /><br />He died when he finally entered his bus full of chairs, The bus seat where he every day was responsible for other peoples life gave him all his energy back, and it kiled him. I guess thats life<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 09:18:07
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I go with other comments above.<br />What Cadsuane teaches will be something greater than laughter and tears, although that may be included, but is not Min`s viewing.<br /><br />Moiraine will evoke both emotions in him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 10:53:58
subject: <b>Well done</b>
body:
I completely agree with the posters above that Cadsuane will teach Rand and 'all the Ashaman' (which is what Min said) something other than laughter and tears.  It's Moiraine's return that will cause Rand to weep with joy and laugh with delight, something he hasn't done in a very long time.  <br /><br />It'll be like a block breaker for him.  Once he's done it, he won't be able to rebuild those particular walls again.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 11:55:41
subject:
<b>Well done.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I also would like to add to this by saying to the dissenters that just becuase Cadsuane recognizes Rand's need to learn Laughter and Tears.... that is no indicator she will be the teacher..<br /><br /> Other than Cadsuane teaching the A'shaman something they won't like..the only other teaching she has in her future is for Nynaeve..(to be more Aes Sedai in terms of personality and control and fill in many of the gaps Ny has with OP usage skills)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 12:00:47
subject: <b>me like</b>
body:
I cannot but add to the chorus:<br />Cadsuane will teach them humility, not laughter and tears.<br />I never considered that Moiraine might do the trick, tough if anybody can, I guess it is she <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-12 17:34:07
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
I like the idea that someone other than Cadsuane will teach Rand laughter and tears. I think Cadsuane has another lesson to teach them I'm just not sure what yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 02:16:35
subject: <b>I agree fully.</b>
body:
to be quite honest I never did understand how such a cold woman like Cadsuane could ever teach Rand Laughter and Tears, a rock could do a better job. <br /><br />I also agree that our fav. AS will be the one to teach him that life and be good too, maybe her time in the gate world let her have something more as well, a touch of those dead maybe? a message from them? I dunno, but I don't think she'll come back and be the same person totally.<br /><br />As for what Cadsuane is going to teach the males, well personally I wish it would be how to buzz off and leave Rand alone cause I can't stand the old witch.


created: 2004-02-13 12:56:30
subject: <b>moving</b>
body:
The return of Moiraine will be monumental but if it brings Rand to laughter and tears it will be so moving...  I agree that this would be a defining moment in Rand's life and Psiche (msp?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serack Doushi</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 19:33:43
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
Moiraine's the first name on Rand's little list. Her return would be a fitting way to destroy it. As for Cadsuane- yeah, it's probably humility that she has to teach them. In a way, this has been foreshadowed. I can't remember where exactly, but Cadsuane's thought back to her early years, when she was young and overconfident. She said something like &quot;It took a toothless wilder in the Black Hills to teach her humility.&quot; That's what she will teach the Asha'man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-13 19:50:51
subject: <b>nice thought Illianer</b>
body:
The ash'aman are far to cocky for their own good. Learning that they can channel definitly hasn't been good for their egos. They seem to believe that it sets them apart from the rest of the world. unlike the original aes sedai who were servants of all (I assume since the hall of servants is mentioned several times in relation to aes sedai and the breaking)thats what she will teach them. <br /><br />(I hope)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-14 02:30:38
subject: <b>Laughter...</b>
body:
There is a section in CoT (it's in my car or I'd get it right now) about Rand. It's something to the effect that he ALMOST laughed but stopped himself before he did. I'll try to find it, ut it really hit me when I read it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Rob's wife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think geeks are sexy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> So I went and got my own! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Te quiero mi hermano!<br /><br /><font color="#0099CC">Caboose: Tell him about how his dad got to third base with you!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-15 02:25:19
subject: <b>Gotta agree</b>
body:
with everybody else, Cads will not be teaching Rand laughter and tears. Perhaps she'll teach the Ashaman (and Aes Sedai) what it means to be Guardians (and Servants) instead of pompus jackasses, its deffinately a lesson they won't like, the Ashaman for coming from an Aes Sedai and the Aes Sadai for coming from a volintary associate of Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-15 14:38:05
subject: <b>Another thought</b>
body:
Cadsuane`s teaching will be that the AM and Rand will have to trust the AS and ally with, in order to win the battles with the Dark Forces.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-16 14:21:23
subject: <b>Remember Jordans history</b>
body:
I always thought the Ashaman had become to hard as well, when they became weapons they lost all feeling for the people they killed, look at dumai wells for example.  Now remember Jordan played a large part in the Vietnam war where it has been quite proven that the American Soliders had the same problem.  It is my thought that the ashaman represent the Americans in vietnam and casanda has to teach them that some means are to terrible even for the best of ends.  She has to teach them to feel again for the people they kill.<br /><br />Just my two cents


created: 2004-02-16 21:24:37
subject: <b>humility or pity</b>
body:
Cadsuane couldn't teach tears to a bottle of Visine.  She claims to have learned humility, but Jordan writes her as the opposite.  Maybe Daigan (poor Eben Howpwil's AS, who is weak in Power, but mentally brilliant, which, ironically, counts for diddly-squat with her sisters.  Go figure.) can teach humility, but Cadsuane?  She WANTS them to be humble.<br />But perhaps pity.  She pities having to break Aleis in order to free Rand from prison in Far Madding.  She laments losing Kumira and Hopwil.  She appears to appreciate the cost in human life that must be paid for victory, and realizes that sometimes the price is too steep.  I suppose I'm kinda agreeing with the Vietnam theorists.  Ashaman guys, at present, are being educated to kill, not to serve, and not to have pity.  Not that they're all psychos - look at Flinn and Narishma, they're well adjusted.  But if the bulk win TG as is, then afterwards they'll be like a useless stockpile of nukes.  No use unless the Romulans attack.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-18 14:08:36
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
But i think that, in the end it will be Aviendha, Elayne and Min that learn him to laugh, and cry. Lan is a living fact of that...<br /><br />And I do not really think it's Moiraine who are the woman that will help him win the final battle, bot Morgase... Elaidas vishon is that the house of andor is the key, and that can be Morgase as well as Elayne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-18 18:22:38
subject: <b>Inteeeresting...</b>
body:
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo<br />oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo<br />oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo<br />oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong<br />but great!<br />I agree wholeheartedly!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Holder of a Naked License.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-23 23:02:01
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I totaly agree. I never thought Moiraine was dead in the first place, even though Lan lost his link with her. Maybe she burnt herself out. Anyways, great theory.


created: 2004-02-25 20:57:33
subject: <b>Caddie to teach....Moiraine to rescue</b>
body:
Cadsuane will have to be the one&#8230;Min foretold it.  Min is never wrong&#8230;<br /><br />&quot;'It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her.' &quot; <br />-A Crown of Swords<br /><br />&#8230;even about Moiraine&#8230;<br /><br />&quot;What good to tell him (Rand) he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&quot; <br />-A Crown of Swords<br /><br />&#8230; who couldn&#8217;t be dead&#8230; too much points towards Thom rescuing her.  I like the idea of her being somehow cut off, burned out or stilled.  This at least will make her a more interesting character.  She&#8217;ll have to grapple with her loss and the sudden disregard the other Aes Sedai will show her (if she is stilled it will be possible for her to regain her strength, of course)&#8230;but that&#8217;ll build character.<br /><br />Anyway &#8230;cool theory&#8230;wrong, but cool and well presented.  You just missed pointing out Min&#8217;s viewings, which didn&#8217;t support your theory and somehow discredit them or reinterpret them in another meaningful way.<br /><br />JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-26 01:08:33
subject: <b>Reply to: Caddie to teach....Moiraine to rescue</b>
body:
Yes, Min does say that Cadsuanne does have to teach Rand <i>et al.</i> something, however what Cadsuanne will teach them may not be what she wants to teach Rand.  She wants to teach him laughter and tears, but that may not be the lesson he learns from her.  All Min said is that he has to learn something from Cadsuanne, not what he will learn.<br /><br />Additionally, I never said Rand would be part of the Moiraine rescue, a possibility, but it will certainly be Thom who accomplishes it.  However, if a living Moiraine is presented to Rand his list &amp; hardness will be shattered.<br /><br />Geer<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-05-04 13:29:12
subject: <b>A Question</b>
body:
I thought that the whole bit regarding laughter and tears was Cadsuane and sorilea meddling in Rand's affairs. Personally I think they are being idiots, anyone who has studied Machiavelli would probably agree with me that in reality Rand is taking the right course and that going soft would probably make him lose Tarmon Gaidon. Fortunately for him RJ seems to disagree with Machiavelli. <br />Enough of my ranting, was it just the opinions Sorilea and Cadsuane(SP) or did I miss a prophecy somewhere?


created: 2004-07-09 21:53:48
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
*applauds* <br />you've put a lot of thought into this...hard not to agree with what you have to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">im from Randland<br /><br />spread karma and throw pennies</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-18 05:29:03
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
Before moiraine &quot;disappeares&quot; with lanfear, she says she has seen this in the ruhidean-ter-angreal, and that she will die... aes sedai cannot lie! therefore, i am pretty sure she is dead... (im not saying she cant maybe be braught back..)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-08 17:53:24
subject: <b>Or how about</b>
body:
If all of the women on the list haunt him as ghosts or something like that and start calling him an idiot and a woolhead and sniffing and convincing him that he's being selfish and arrogant to think that it's all his fault most of them chose to die so it was their faulthe starts crying and then something makes him laugh the end<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-31 09:45:51
subject: <b>Question:</b>
body:
Q: there is another cornerstone, you know...<br />A: It is true that moiraine started the list (sort of). BUT let's look back at the scene at the docks. What happens before this event, that triggers Moiraine to go to the docks with Altor? The &quot;death&quot; of MORGASE by Rahvin!!!<br /><br />Morgase, the MOTHER OF RAND'S LOVE (Elayne). Someone who is STILL ALIVE!!! Who thus doesn't NEED to be braught back by a 'deus ex machina'. Jordan must still have some use for her, otherwise he could have had her killed.<br /><br />So, conclusion: I think it will be Morgase who will break the list and finally give Rand the chance to forgive himself for Moiraine's death.


created: 2005-01-30 07:51:17
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
if jordan writes that scene when moiraine returns and makes him laugh and cry again properly, it will be so powerfull and emotional. <br /><br />ahhhhhhh just imagine it in a hollywood movie. and the music and slow motion.......................<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-20 05:26:00
subject: <b>morgase+Moiraine</b>
body:
i liked the throry and went with it all the way but somone said is probly Morgase who will do the whole Laughter and Tears thing but i want Moiraine to come back.....o well RJ will make it all right<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..........what?.....STOP LOOKING AT ME!!...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-26 06:27:37
subject: <b>true true</b>
body:
i agree, if uv read KoD u'll see the connection. Mat has to rescue moraine from where the eilfinn and ailfinn (however u spell it) are. Then rands list will be destoyed. AND yet another way mat can save rand's behind and b the coolest character ever!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-02-29 15:52:22
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I would say it's pretty obvious and accepted among most that Logain's faction with the AS will fight against Taim's faction at the BT.<br /><br />Some people say that the Seanchan will attack the BT, though, but I doubt that.


created: 2004-02-29 16:09:00
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
And given that all 51 are (at least in my view) skilled or have experience at capturing men that can channel...they add another edge to Logain's faction.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 16:21:56
subject: <b>Black Sisters might help Taim.</b>
body:
It depends whether Seanchan assault on White Tower and those Aes Sedai sent by Elaida to hunt Black Ajah being successful would happen before Black Tower civil war, because it might cause Black Ajah to run from Tar Valon and join with Taim.<br /><br />Also it seems that there are only around 30 Ashaman are Darkfriends, those that had private lessons with Taim, so if Logain convinces others that Taim is traitor, there would be no need for Aes Sedai help.


created: 2004-02-29 20:30:14
subject: <b>Agree with Theory</b>
body:
Logain will cleanse the BT, with possible aid of bonded AS. Also, Toveine has some plan to oust Elaida with the help of the Asha`man. Lots of action has to come down very soon, because TG is upon us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 22:41:45
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
There are two very good reasons why Logain hasn't attacked and probably won't attack Taim as things now stand.<br /><br />1.  The majority of the neutral Asha'man will side with Taim.  Logain tells Rand this in CoT.  Logain might be able to win but at what cost?  Taim has thirty or so Asha'man under his thumb.  Logain may have 50 or so under his command.  (We don't know if all the AS are bonded to Logain's faction.  We only know that there are none bonded to Taim's faction.) If he can keep the neutral asha'man from siding with Taim then he could probably win.  Taim's forces would have the advantage of superior training, though.  <br /><br />2. I don't think Logain would force his captive AS to fight for him.  It would be ethically wrong, IMHO.  I think Logain feels that way as well.<br /><br />Logain's strategy is the right one.  If Logain is going to remove Taim without massive bloodshed he needs Rand's help to do it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 23:41:03
subject: <b>White Tower</b>
body:
Logain is going to save Egwene and the rebel Aes Sedai from the coming Seanchan attack, and be instumental in bringing Egg to power in the White Tower. He will not forget that she was the one who let him go. <br /><br />The various strands being woven, of Aes Sedai and Ashaman bonding, will come to fruition in a joint Tower, and Logain and Egg will lead them to the Last Battle, where Logain will win his &quot;Glory above all men&quot;. Where pretty-boy Gawain fits into this, who knows but RJ. Perhaps Egg will bond both of them?


created: 2004-03-01 00:24:51
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
Simple and to the point. Well done.<br />I'd like to add that with a massive link, many of the soldiers and dedicated might side with Logain thinking he's gonna win. Especially the young ones and one's with family.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 08:16:21
subject: <b>Not only are the Aes Sedai skilled at capturing male channelers...</b>
body:
...but are also known to be non-Darkfriends.  Remember that all darkfriends were pulled from this mission so that they would not be killed in a lost cause.  This is key.


created: 2004-03-01 13:57:05
subject: <b>How about some math</b>
body:
13+13+13+13= 51.  Exactly four circles capable of shielding any man.  Hmmm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 14:29:47
subject: <b>agree</b>
body:
but canolli.. 13+13+13+13 equals 52! not 51, so much to doing some maths <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> so one of them is allowed to die<br />i think the fact that none of the AS is a darkfriend adds a lot of support to this theory!


created: 2004-03-01 15:24:15
subject: <b>Logain is a relative newcomer</b>
body:
Whereas Taim has &quot;proven&quot; himself to Rand by his rescue at Dumai Wells. Rand's inner voice might be warning him about Taim, but until he sees it with his own eyes, he at least outwardly appears to trust him.<br /><br />Like most people here, I think it will happen eventually. But Logain either has to prove his trustworthiness to Rand, or, for Taim's treachery to become obvious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 19:30:55
subject: <b>Light in the Night...</b>
body:
you don't think that Rand has already figured out Taim's trechery after the attack on him in Cairhien?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 21:20:19
subject: <b>I like lil timmy`s response.</b>
body:
It would be great for Logain and Toveine to pool their reasons for visiting the White Tower, and bringing down Elaida (Toveine`s plan), and repaying Egwene for releasing him (Logain`s gratitude).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 21:29:00
subject: <b>Re: Gena Sedai</b>
body:
Taim explained to Rand that the asha'man that attacked him were renegades to cover his own behind. Besides, Dashiva was in on it, too, and he's been with Rand since Dumai Wells. (So to Rand, it wouldn't have necessarily looked like Taim was the one behind the plot.) <br /><br />We the readers know what is going on, but Rand is suspicious of everyone, and more-so of his asha'man. I'm sure he was leery of Taim, and suspects him, but I don't think Rand's ever given us a clue to let us know, if HE knows how deep Taim's treachery runs. That was the reason that Logain came to Rand in CoT. He tells Rand that Taim is issuing orders in his name, all the asha'man Rand has with him are on the deserters list, that the full asha'man are getting special lessons, and that most of them will be loyal to him than Rand. Even knowing that Taim is splitting the BT, Rand says he will have to wait, as the Seanchan are a more pressing issue in his mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 00:48:17
subject: <b>13+13+13+13</b>
body:
=52. The one extra might cause them to consider how big of a circle with mena nd women they can make(one left out jumping around &quot;what about me!) Does anyone remember how the ratio goes....like how many men per 13women and so on down the line till they reach the maximum number of channelers in a circle?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 13:56:23
subject: <b>As of CoT, Rand knows for sure about Taim's treachery.</b>
body:
As of CoT, Rand knows for sure about Taim's treachery.  Logain told Rand, and there was no indication from his PoV that he mistrusts Logain.  (With RJ such comments aren't necessarily fool proof, though.)<br /><br />Quite frankly, I see trouble brewing in the BT, even without Logain present.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 14:26:52
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I think it's very important to remember that rand doesn't really trust anyone beside Min, Perrin and Mat.  In fact he barely trusts anyone even when Min says that her visions say that he can trust them. So I think the issue of Rand trusting Taim over Logain is moot. <br /><br />


created: 2004-03-07 21:54:07
subject: <b>fan-TAS-tic</b>
body:
Thanks for putting up a theory that's short and sweet. You've got my vote!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 10:12:19
subject: <b>Good one</b>
body:
The AS will be useful for the upcoming fight, but I'm still not liking seeing anyone bonded against their will.  Good theory, short and sweet.  It's one fight I'm looking forward to seeing.  And maybe we'll find out whether or not the Warder-type bonds can be released without anyone going crazy and dying from it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wandering Wolf   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Not all those who wander are lost.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 02:40:22
subject: <b>TO KRONIK Re: 13+13+13+13</b>
body:
Here is the a direct quote from the Big White Book.<br />(pg. 23 - last paragraph)<br /><br />&quot;A circle of thirteen female channelers can be linked together without the presence of a man. If a man is added to the link of thirteen women, they can then increase the link to include thirteen more women, or a total of twenty-six women and one man. Two men can take the circle to include thirty-four women. The next total is forty-five, with three men linked with forty-two women, then fifty-four (four men and fifty women), then sixty-three (five men and fifty-eight women), and finally seventy-two, is the maximum possible link in terms of numbers.&quot;<br /><br />The Big White Book goes on to say that if men want to form a circle the only requirement is that there must be one more women than the number of men if the number of men is tree or more. Except for the linking of one man and one woman, two men and one woman, and two men and two women.<br /><br />It also says.<br />(pg. 25 - first paragraph)<br /><br />&quot;The most powerful circle potentially, depending on the strengths and gifts of those linked, would be one containing thirty-five men and thirty-seven women, achieving the maximum possible size of seventy-two members as well as the greatest possible balance of male and female.&quot;<br /><br />The Big White Book goes on to say seventy-two may not be needed. The size of the circle needed would depend on the task it is intended for. Seventy-two may not always be best for the task intended. A circle of seventy-two may even hamper the task.<br /><br />I hope I did not make this to boring.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 02:50:23
subject: <b>Here are the ratios.</b>
body:
Here are the ratios:<br /><br />13+1+13=27<br /><br />13+1+13+1+8=36<br /><br />13+1+13+1+13+1+3=45<br /><br />13+1+13+1+13+1+11+1=54<br /><br />13+1+13+1+13+1+13+1+6+1=63<br /><br />13+1+13+1+13+1+13+1+13+1+2=72<br /><br />Notice the total increases by 9.<br /><br />I don't know if this helps explain anything. I just thought I would post it to see what anynone thinks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 16:08:56
subject: <b>more possiblities</b>
body:
or the biggest and strongest circle of 72.. 35 male and 37 female.. 51-37=14 leaving 13 to capture taim and one in reserve.. or something.. my point is that they will be used, not sure on how though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">erm.. hi?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 16:09:39
subject: <b>I think Taim was trained by Ishamael long before.</b>
body:
The reason that Taim went to Rand was mainly for his own interests.  One was for protection from the Red ajah, two for protection from Rand and Bashere's armies.  So ofcourse he will agree to recruit soldiers when Rand told him so.  He later saw the benefit of doing this, in that he can influence many of them and perhaps some of them will even be DFs.  He did not plan to immediately come out and say hey I'm a Darkfriend.  There's a way of manipulating them without that fact being known, can cause a lot of chaos.  Originally he wanted perhaps to destroy as many Aes Sedai as possible, and he would have done it if not for Rand.  So, yeah there are plenty of reasons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 16:51:06
subject: <b>Chaos</b>
body:
The answer is simple. The shadow wants chaos, and what better than having a couple of houndred channeling men going crazy just before the LB. Well, since Rand has cleansed saidin, the shadows plan has backfired.<br /><br />/Ibenon


created: 2004-02-29 17:35:13
subject: <b>Taim also brough Rand one of the Seals!</b>
body:
If Taim was a DF at when he first met Rand then why did he give Rand one of the Seals?? It couldnt have been only to gain Rand's trust, the Seals are too important for that. It is a simple fact, Taim was not a DF at the time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 21:43:26
subject: <b>So, somebody's gotta ask it........</b>
body:
Was Taim Turned by a Circle of 13? The more I re-read the books and allow my mind to preculate.... I think he was. RJ would never introduce something as major as  the Turning by 13 and then makes no use of it... I feel Taim first came to Rand because of the combined forces of the amnesty and Rand's being ta'veren.  I agree that he was likley turned to the Dark before Dumia's Well... but I do not think it was voluntary.<br /><br />So I do agree with you somewhat...but I disagree on the motivations...(so to speak)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 23:06:04
subject: <b>Ashaman vs. Aes Sedi</b>
body:
One reason to do such a good job with the Ashaman may be that he thought that Rand would send them against the Aes Sedi. A full scale battle between the Ashaman and the Aes Sedi right before the Last Battle would help the DO's cause greatly.<br /><br />Oh and about the Seal, an intelligent DF might think that the Seals will be broken sooner or later an the only question is when. When Taim gives the Seal to Rand the DO&#8217;s side is probably not ready anyways, so why not give it to Rand and get his trust then steal it from him.<br />


created: 2004-03-01 13:55:39
subject: <b>Good point, loial01</b>
body:
Since day one, he has spoken of matching the White Tower, and kept eyes out for Aes Sedai, and tried to influence Rand in that direction.  He even is the most likely candidate to have stabbed Demira and precipitated the conflict between Rand and the Salidar embassy.  His henchmen are the most obvious candidates for provoking the assassination attempt by Egan Padros in tPoD, and their attempt to blame Aes Sedai because they discovered Tar Valon coins on his person was so clumsy it was laughable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 15:02:39
subject: <b>Taim appears to have been trained by a Forsaken</b>
body:
Outside of the Aiel Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs, only the Forsaken know the true origins of their culture. The &quot;so called Aiel&quot; statement he made indicates he had to have heard the phrase somewhere before, and I think we can safely say he didn't learn this bit of information from an Aiel, nor did it come from a book, or it would be more common knowledge than it is.<br /><br />Taim knows how to test for the ability in men to learn how to channel. This test is very specific, and requires concentration and patience in both the tester and testee. This is not something he could learn by accidentally holding the power and sensing the resonance in another person without them being a willing candidate.<br /><br />He also knows a strong form of compulsion that we only see the Forsaken use. (Verin and Liandrin's just don't qualify in this regard.) Taim's compulsion was strong and the effects permanent, like Graendal's stronger weaves.<br /><br />Rand also notes that Taim appears to be 35 years old. Given that the latest for the ability to develop in men is 30, (Probably much earlier for a strong channeler like Taim), we can figure he has been channeling for years and has slowed, too. Plus he doesn't seem to be affected by the taint. (This is questionable.)<br /><br />Ishy would be an obvious choice as a teacher, since he was free around the time of the Aiel War. He would also be the choice for the source of the seal and the knowledge of its importance. (I doubt most laymen would know what it was. The story of how he acquired it, is probably just that, a story.) Ishy was also willing to teach Rand how to use the Power. The other Forsaken are reluctant to share their knowledge with anyone of substantial ability.<br /><br />I'll have to disagree for these reasons, but I will hold off on voting until I see a rebuttal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 20:57:32
subject: <b>Taim`s recruitment</b>
body:
You misunderstand how the recruitment is done.<br /><br />Basically, Asha`man are sent out to find men who want to join Rand, and go with the lightenings. Those who wish to, are brought to the BT, then tested to see if they are capable of learning to channel. Those who can stay; those who cannot are given to Bashere for the Legion of the Dragon. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The recruiters are not capable of finding only DFs. That appears to be Taim`s job, to sell the idea to those who appear to be amenable.<br /><br />For your theory; I believe Taim was a DF before he came to Rand, probably found by Ishamael.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 21:06:55
subject: <b>LOL-I posted before reading Light in the Night`s</b>
body:
response. Agree totally with him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 21:28:26
subject: <b>Let the lord of chaos rule</b>
body:
Lets not forget this little gem. Orders from the dark one himself that Rand was not to be hurt, and to increase chaos. Had the shadow known that Rand was going to cleanse Saidin it may have been different, but I think having a hoard of powerful channellers of questionable sanity would definitely increase the chaos in the realm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 21:29:02
subject: <b>Liandrin's Plan</b>
body:
In TSR, Egwene, Nynaeve and Avienhda are questioning Joiya and Amico in the Stone of Tear.  Joiya tells the girls of a plan to free Taim, and we learn that Taim has escaped only a short time later.  I like the idea that Taim was turned against his will at this time, and that he subsequently met with a Forsaken (Demandred, perhaps) and was taught the things that Light in the Night mentioned.<br /><br />As for his motivation in helping to create the Black Tower, he and the other bad guys should realize that Rand is likely to proceed with his plan of recruiting male channelers regardless of Taim's presence or absence.  This places an evil ally in a position of incredible influence that only increases in value along with the Black Tower's success.  It provides Taim with cover to recruit 30 male Dreadlords that the Shadow would otherwise not have.  It also gives him the opportunity to mismanage and misdirect a potentially powerful force for Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-02 23:52:38
subject: <b>To Diomedes.....</b>
body:
I always took her tale about Taim to be lies. I didn't think a BA sister could spill the beans about any plan that was currently in motion...(per Adeleas and Vandene's interrogation od Ispan) Have i gotten something wrong there?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 00:25:29
subject: <b>Taim turning.</b>
body:
I thought Taim may have been shaken by Rands chanting of &quot;break the seals&quot; when he gave it (the seal) to Rand in Caemlyn.


created: 2004-03-03 02:50:38
subject: <b>Taim was trained by Ishy</b>
body:
Light in the Night pointed out the relevant hints.<br /><br />I want to add that Taim also knows the term &quot;Travel&quot;. <br /><br />In LoC, ch.3, Rand shows Taim how to make a &quot;gateway&quot;.<br />A bit later Rand asks Taim how to test male channelers and Taim answers:&quot;You haven't tested any of them? Why, in the name of ... ? You cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you do not know how to test for the talent.&quot;<br /><br />I think this shows that Taim could already Travel, otherwise he couldn't really wonder and mock Rand that he doesn't know how to test a man which is much easier than Travelling. <br />He knows the term &quot;Travel&quot;, although Rand only mentioned a &quot;gateway&quot;. <br />This is also typical Forsaken knowldege of course.<br /><br />I wonder, though, which name Taim wanted to say when he said &quot;in the name of ...&quot;. <br /><br />Another point is that after Rand tells Taim of balefire and only to use it against Shadowspawn Taim says:'&quot;I have been in the Blight; I'v killed Trollocs before, and Myrddraal.&quot; He pushed a low branch out of the way and held it for Rand. &quot;I have never heard of this balefire, but if a Darkhound comes after me, I will find some way to kill it.&quot;'<br /><br />This shows that Taim knows Shadowspawn quite good and is especially trained in killing with the OP. <br />He even admits that he was in the Blight before.  <br /><br />See no conclusive clues which could show that Taim became a Darkfriend not until LoC.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-03 06:41:35
subject: <b>taim know compulsion???</b>
body:
when did taim use compusions of any sort?<br />I don't remember it although he did come up with plenty of interesting weaves(like the one they tried to scare the naughty laughter teacher Rand hired in WH<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 14:59:44
subject: <b>Re: guttering flame</b>
body:
Taim tells us about it when he meets Rand for the first time. He is talking to Bashere, to convince him of who he says he is, because he has shaved and Bashere has his doubts about it being Taim:<br /><br /> &quot;I had you beat at Irinjavar, until those visions appeared in the sky. But everyone knows that. What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?&quot; Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of the guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. &quot;I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.&quot; The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. &quot;They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they'll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy otherwise.&quot; LoC, A New Arrival.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 15:38:11
subject: <b>Taim=Moridin=Ishy</b>
body:
Is there any reason why Taim cannot be Moridin in disguise. He does behave like a person from the age of legends, and Lews Therin always gets hateful and crazy when he&#180;s around. <br /><br />Ibe


created: 2004-03-03 18:25:25
subject: <b>Agree. Taim is Moridin.</b>
body:
He even talks tile Moridin.<br /><br />As for the BA plot to set Taim up as a false dragon, that was a brilliant piece of misdirection by RJ.<br /><br />It is described as an either/or situation - only one of them is supposed to be true. When both could easily be.<br /><br />Joiya was able to spill the beans because with Taaim captured, the plot was no longer current.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 20:43:06
subject: <b>Thanks Linda....</b>
body:
That has always bugged me.<br /><br />About Taim being Moridin...I never thought of that.. Could you direct me to some clues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 19:21:36
subject: <b>Taim = Moridin</b>
body:
When I first visited the site in 2002, baphomet23 was in the early stages of working up this theory. I gave him a few ideas as it was discussed on the message board. He subsequently went on to post the theory.<br /><br />It was ironic that I just missed out on posting it, beciase I've believed that Taim is Moridin ever since ACOS came out.<br /><br />I became increasingly dissatisfied with the Demandred theory, because I could see that Taim and Demandred had different characters.<br /><br />I had decided that Taim must be a Forsaken - nothing else could explain the so-called Aiel and the Travel comments.<br /><br />In ACOS, Moridin turns up with 2 cour'souvras. Which got me into wondering how long had he been around.<br /><br />So when did Ishy come back? I decided it was prior to Aginor and Balthamel. No one would reincarnate those 2 first, the DO should be bending all his concentration on getting Ishy back.<br /><br />Otherwise it would be like getting a pawn to the end of the chessboard and asking for a knight instead of a queen. RJ recently said that the DO has only a short time to catch a soul after death, so in a way that supports what I was thinking - there's no time lag for the soul, but then you have to get a body. The Shadow has no scruples on that though, so there's no need for that to take months.<br /><br />Then I got thinking about how RJ set up the questioning of Joiya and Amico in Tear. As though only one of those plans could be right. Why not both plans? I thought.<br /><br />If Taim is Ishy it would certainly sow chaos. 2 Dragons. Sounds like an Ishy plan. But Rand won at Falme and Ishy gets captured. (I'm still waiting for Cadsuane to set eyes on Taim. She helped capture him, so she'll have something interesting to say.)<br /><br />The battle over Falme was intersting, because Ishy was not actually there in the flesh. Light in the Night agrees on that, he posted that very opinion only yesterday.<br /><br />TPOD only confirmed my suspicions.<br /><br />Moridin boasts about playing both sides of the board. If he's Taim, he certainly is. To play both sides of the board, you have to be in total control of both sides - not just have a few people in high places with Rand, Mat, Perrin, etc. Though he's got those too, of course.<br /><br />I also wondered what Moridin did in his 'spare time'. The other Forsaken are busy enough - their tasks. He didn't appear to do that much checking up on the other Forsaken, or DFs. If he's at the Black Tower, he would have plenty to do in advancing the cause.<br /><br />Moridin takes care to keep his identies 'separate' hence the 2 lots of instruction to Kisman and co about the attack on Rand in Cairhien. I also thought Ishy gave one lot of orders as his 'Moridin' identity, either to scare them, or else because that day they were at a location that Taim was not 'supposed' to know of.<br /><br />Nothing in WH or Cot added to it, I think.<br /><br />That's about it. Sorry it's long, but it can't be described in a shorter way. There's a lot more in the actual theory and BB's of course.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 07:24:20
subject: <b>according to the WOT role playing game book</b>
body:
taim is not a DF, he was rescued from a black ajah circle of 13 just before dumai wells<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Seek knowledge from wherever you can, even unto China&quot;. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 14:37:56
subject: <b>Thanks Linda....</b>
body:
Great research...you've converted me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 18:59:19
subject: <b>Thanks. Linda</b>
body:
Have read the Theory+comments on BB, and will certainly give more attention to this in next read, before voting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 22:51:37
subject: <b>Very nice Linda</b>
body:
But I have a problem with your timeline, and it's one I hashed out quite a bit with baphomet23 on the comment board of his theory.  There is a bit of prophecy that refers to winter's heart being born in the heart of winter.  I still believe this refers to Moridin.  Many people agree that the first time Moridin appears is in the guise of the watcher in ACOS, spying on Graendel and Sammael.  This occurs just after the beginning of the new year, according to the WOT timeline.  Also, Bathamel and Aginor were destroyed long before Ishmael's final demise in TDR, and RJ has said that there are limits on the amount time that can pass if he wants to reincarnate one of his followers.  This actually doesn't disprove the Taim=Moridin theory, but I think some of your details are mistaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 23:05:10
subject: <b>Also,</b>
body:
I don't really believe that there is a Black Ajah oath against revealing information.  Ispan's reticence in providing new and relevant information to Vandene and Adeleas can be explained by ignorance.  She's been out of the White Tower since TGH, and isolated since LOC when Moghedien scattered the remaining members of the 13 to do her tasks.  She hasn't talked to anyone beside Falion, Moggy and Moridin since then, and wouldn't necessarily know of any other Black Sisters besides the ones that are already known to Elayne and company.  Also, Talene reveals Galina and Atuan in the beginning of COT to Sisters that were unaware of their true allegiences.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-07 01:34:51
subject: <b>Diomedes</b>
body:
BA Oaths<br /><br />Talene was able to tell the BA hunters everything because she had been <b>freed</b> from her BA Oaths. Talene's the only one who has given any useful current information. Ispan said nothing about Falion, when that would definitely still be current. ALso nothing about who sent her to Ebou Dar, etc. The Oath wouldn't let her.<br /><br />Winter's heart<br /><br />Moridin being winter's heart is your assumption.<br /><br />In the latter part of Winter's Heart, Rand actively tries to make himself colder than Winter's Heart - this is what  the Prophecy refers to. There is the danger, as Cadsuane is fully aware, that he stays this way - and makes his victory as much to be dreaded as his defeat.<br /><br />When we see Moridin in ACOS he already has Cyndane's coursouva as well as Moghedien's. When did that happen? It took place off stage and the possibility has to be borne in mind that it occurred much earlier than his first onstage appearance.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-07 02:20:51
subject: <b>Diomedes</b>
body:
How can Moridin be said to be born in the heart of winter? He arrived while there was still the enforced summer. In fact, he watched from the Palace in Ebou Dar while Elayne and co Travelled to the Kin's farm with the Bowl of Winds. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-07 19:14:58
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> Of course, linda_sedai</b>

body:
You are right about Talene.  It can be difficult to keep track of all the details about such events.  And this can be a big chunk of evidence in favor of Black Ajah oaths.<br /><br />About the winter's heart prophecy, I don't think my interpretation is any more assumption than yours.  In answer to your question, I'm associating winter more with the shortening of days than with changes in the weather.  We still have winter in San Diego, even though it's warm and doesn't snow.<br /><br />Would you name the time of year in which ACOS and TPOD takes place summer, spring or autumn?  <br /><br />Finally, while considering the when, why and how of each Forsaken's reincarnation, Tor's website offers some interesting tidbits: <br /><br />http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html <br /> <br />The week 3 question and answer, about 2/3 down the page deals directly with the issue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 03:48:02
subject: <b>I think I can guess...</b>
body:
Hi all! This is my first post, and I hope it makes sense. I think Taim was turned by the AS that were sent to gentle and capture him. I do not recall their names ever being mentioned, but it ties in with some other clues-Liandrin's party of thirteen, Vandenes' knowledge of Taim (despite being holed up in a backwater village with Adeleas). This also leads me to believe that Vandene killed Adeleas (not the fact of Taim being turned, but the understanding that she is BA).<br /><br />Of course, that leads us to the Draghkar, and who was aware of Moiraine..and I am getting off subject.<br /><br />So, I think Taim was turned by the (unbeknowsnt to Suian Sanche) BA seek and destroy party.<br /><br />Steve


created: 2004-03-08 04:07:33
subject: <b>heh...</b>
body:
I should've read ALL the posts before posting.<br /><br />Well, I never really thought Taim-Moridin, but it is quite possible. Actually, one reason why I always felt Taimandred was so strong was because of how much knowledge Taim had, and of course that could equal Moridin as well. <br /><br />Now, we know from Aran'gar &amp; Osan'Gar that bodies are chosen as receptacles for Forsaken souls...so:<br /><br />Taim is captured by BA (the party I mentioned previously)he is turned , presumably on Messaana's orders, which came from the DO. Ishy is killed in the Stone, and the DO resurrects him in Taim, a strong channeler already (although I do now know if that would matter)..and he is now Moridin. This makes sense, since RJ has already had characters with strong duality in them.<br /><br />Steve


created: 2004-03-08 16:38:47
subject: <b>Taim = DEMANDRED</b>
body:
I'm sorry I can post my proof to back this up in this particular post, will post later, but Taim is Demandrad, not Moridin. Who you believe Moridin originally was is another topic. But anyways, it fits perfectly, explaining his relative strength to Rand, some of his behavior if not all, and his &quot;learning&quot; of balefire, gateways, etc. Post on here your replies and/or comments, please.<br /><br />Shane aka Redrummm86


created: 2004-03-08 17:11:39
subject: <b>RJ himself has said quite bluntly</b>
body:
in an interview on the TOR site that Taim is NOT Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:33:36
subject: <b>TAIM IS DEMANDORED</b>
body:
I just submitted this to the theory board but this is as good place to put this as well. For one thing Taim can not be Moridin. Moridin was not even around when Taim became a False Dragon right after the books began. Moridin is not even seen until ACOS. So thats that.<br /><br />I don't know why everyone thinks that Taim is not Demandored. But i know he is for a fact. First lets start with the fact that we know where all(save 2) of the forsaken are and have been. <br /><br />1: Asmo- DEAD(at the moment), but he was in the waste with Lanfear and later captured by Rand.<br />2: Aginor- DEAD, killed by Rand at the Eye of the World, later revived.<br />3: Balthamel- DEAD, Killed be Rand at the Eye of the World, later revived.<br />4: Ishmael- DEAD killed by Rand over Falme, later revived.<br />5: Sammael- DEAD(completly), Was in Illian, killed by Rand at Shadar Logoth(balefire)<br />6: Rahvin- DEAD(completly), killed by Rand in Caemlyn(balefire)<br />7: Be'lal- DEAD(completly), killed by Moiraine at The Stone of Tear(balefire)<br />8: Lanfear- DEAD, killed by Moiraine in Cairhien(Doorway), later revived.<br />9: Mesaana- ALIVE, at the White Tower.<br />10: Greandal- ALIVE, in Arad Doman.<br />11: Semirhage- ALIVE, widley beleived to be Anath(Tuon's truthspeaker) in Ebou Dar last we read.<br />12: Moridin- Ishmael Revived. not sure where he is. BUT CANT BE TAIM.<br />13: Moghedien- ALIVE, was in Tanchico, later Mindtrapped by DO and given to Moridin. <br />14: Cydine- Lanfear Revived, too  many places to list, Mindtrapped by DO and given to Moridin.<br />15: Osan'gar- Aginor Revived, was where Rand was. Was Dashiva. Whereabouts unknown at this time.<br />16: Aran'gar- Balthamel Revived, Is with Egwane (as Halima) and the SAS.<br />17: Demandored- ALIVE, Whereabouts ALWAYS UNKNOWN. only seen as himself in meetings with othe Forsaken, and with DO. <br /><br />Ok now that thats done with. Lets get to the meat of this. The DO told Demandored to &quot;Let the Lord od Chaos Rule!&quot; What better place to do this than as the M'Heal at the BT. And the most important point of all Robert Jordan tells us it IS him. <br />This is a question of the week from the TOR WOT website.<br /><br />Question: <br /><br />At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?<br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. &lt;Maniacal laughter from the shadows!&gt;<br /><br />The most important word in the question and answer is posed. Demandored has never POSED as Taim. Demandored IS Taim. I dont know how anyone got the idea that Jordan would give you a straight answer to such a well kept secret. Jordan is the best Aes Sedai of the group giving you a truth but not the truth you think. Come on we all know we have to read in to Jordans words. This is one of the situations where Jordan would use  his FAVORITE saying READ AND FIND OUT. <br /><br />Just to recap this not really theory but fact. <br />TAIM IS DEMANDORED!<br /><br />Torch this if you want but you cant when you read the facts. <br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 15:14:03
subject: <b>To the Taim is Moridin belivers</b>
body:
Remember that Taim was thrown from his horse when Rand and Ishmael(Moridin) were fighting above Falme. So thats another reason that Taim can not be Moridin(Ishmael)<br /><br />Just my 2 coppers<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:22:45
subject: <b>Correction</b>
body:
Sorry Ishmael was killed by Rand in the Sonte of Tear.<br /><br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 17:24:01
subject: <b>Taim=Moridin</b>
body:
I think that Mazrim Taim was captured (&quot;freed&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> by the black ajah and was then tortured (just like cabriana, the one tortured by semirhage)by the shadow to gain all his personal information. After that it has been a simple thing for moridin to weave a mask of mirror with the true power and pose as Taim approaching Rand. It is on of the reasons Moridin says that he plays both sides.<br /><br />The scenario does&#180;nt have any problem with the timeline since Ishy/Moridin was killed long before and therefor had to be back when Rand took Caemlyn, sin RJ has said that the DO only has a short time to regain a dead soul.<br /><br />Ibenon


created: 2004-03-16 14:45:07
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
First off, Taim is not Demandred. It specifically says in the end of Winter's Heart.  Taim was running to where Rand and the Asha'man were. He didn't think anything when he saw Flinn, until the old man b!tch-slapped him with the Power.  He said something to the effect of &quot;The old man's an Asha'man?!?!&quot; He had no idea who Flinn was, therefore showing he isn't Taim.<br /><br />I had never considered Moridin as Demandred before just now, and it's an interesting possibility. Here's my take on it. Forgive inaccuracies, and please correct me; I'm at work and don't have my books with me.  Assuming that Taim was turned by his own will, or by force is irrelevant. Keep in mind Ishamael's new body has to be dead for him to take it, just like Aginor and Balthemel.  The Black Ajah could have had turning him as an initial plan. But once Rand killed Ishamael, then things could have changed. They could have killed Taim, and taken his body back to Shayol Ghul to be used for Ishamael's soul. As I said, I don't remember the specific timeline, so this may or may not be relevant.<br /><br />And another thing I just considered....wasn't it stated that Moridin is roughly Rand's age? That could have negated my whole argument, but I spent too much time writing it to just delete it.<br />Please post replies/feedback


created: 2004-03-17 15:13:40
subject: <b>Taim is not either Demodred or Moridin.</b>
body:
I think that Taim is just a guy that is envious of Rand.  So he was easily convinced to switch allegiance to the Shadow.  I do not think he was turned by a circle of 13.  <br />I do not have my books readily available for reference.  But I do remember when he came to Rand in Caemlyn; he said something about taking the slices that fall his way (talking about glory and he was thinking about a partnership).  Sounds allot like what happened between LTT and Demodred.<br />I think it is as simple as that Taim would be a new Forsaken.  I think he swore himself to the dark side when Dashiva (Osan'gar- Aginor) infiltrated the Black Tower.  I mean some of the forsaken have been taken out.  They will need to be replaced.  Who said that they couldn&#8217;t add to their number from people from this age?  <br />Just as another side note, Moridin seems to be aloof.  He stays behind the scenes unless he must come out.  I do not believe that he would place himself in a position to be in a Battle (after Rand took Illian and was fighting the Seanchan).  <br />Sorry about the spelling and lack of references.  Did this really quick during business hours.<br />


created: 2004-03-17 23:55:21
subject: <b>Here we go again</b>
body:
First off Taim is not Demandred, I thought that was settled. <br /><br />Taim is also not Morridin as Rand meets Morridin in Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Anyway I beleive Taim is Taim and a pawn of Demandred's.  He was turned by a circle of thirteen who were part of the Red contingent sent to stop him.  He was then given to Ishamael for training.  When Demandred is released and after Ishamael dies, Demandred takes control of both Taim and the black Ajah in Saldea.  He sends Taim to Rand and then takes control of the Borderlands in the background, which is why there is constant rumours of fighting in the north.  There are countless reasons why I beleive this to be true but the most pertinent of them (Since this is a discussion about Taim and not Where's Demandred?) is the presence of the 13 AS with the borderlanders in Andor.  We know that they were in Saldaea where Taim was.  We also know that it takes a circle of thirteen to turn someone and I can't beleive that this is a coincidence.  Anyway, if you consider that Demandred is with the borderlands, and that there is thirteen AS with him then you can conclude that the 13 are BA.  If you consider that those 13 BA were in saldaea when he was captured and then escaped, and you accept the supposed BA plot to free Taim told by Joiya,  then it is reasonable to assume that those 13 BA were part of the escape.  IT is not that much of a stretch from there to realize that 13 is the number required to turn a channeller.  Anyway, I beleive that this will all be revealed to be true when the forces of Demandred, i.e. the borderlanders, the Andorian nobles who are following whatsername (Don't have my books with me) and Taim's Ashaman attack caemlyn and kidnap Elayne in the next book.  After all we have seen Demandred spying on elayne in TAR which indicates his interest in Caemlyn and herself.  And it would be a stroke which could net the dark everything which is what Messana thought of Demandred's plan in LOC.  Especially in conjunction with my other speculations for the future which involve Semirage and the &quot;dark Seanchan&quot;  and an attack on the white tower that wii result in the collaring of Egwene's AS who just happen to be mostly &quot;Light&quot; AS and Messana's infestation of the tower with her &quot;Dark&quot;  AS.  These three plots in conjunction do indeed give the dark everything.  (And if any of you have no idea what I'm talking about send me a note, and I'll explain myself in the message board fully)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-29 17:31:04
subject: <b>To Ashandari</b>
body:
I'm not even going to <i>touch</i> your theory, but I will take the opportunity to set your records straight on some details of the Forsaken and their deaths.<br /><br />1.  Balthamel was not killed by Rand, he was killed by Someshta (the Nym).<br />2.  Ishamael was killed in the Stone (which you corrected yourself).<br />3.  Sammael was emphatically not killed by balefire; he was killed by Mashadar.  It was Liah that Rand destroyed by balefire.  However, it does not appear Sammael is coming back, either.<br />4.  You give no evidence for Moridin's ties; saying something isn't true doesn't mean it's not true.  The truth is, we don't know what Moridin is up to (which you made note of).<br />5.  Dashiva is dead.  He was killed in Winter's Heart at the battle near Shadar Logoth.  The location of his remains is not known, but we can speculate that they are underground, decomposing, wherever they are.<br />6.  It's Cyndane, not Cydine<br />7.  It's Egwene, not Egwane.  (Not to nitpick your typographical errors, but as long as I'm pointing stuff out I might as well....)<br />8.  Calling one's self by someone else's name or making orders in someone's name without his knowledge qualifies as posing as that person (just ask an identity theft victim).  Thus, if we are to take RJ's statement at face value, Demandred has never let anyone believe that he is Mazrim Taim (that would be posing as him).<br /><br />Just to clarify.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-02 01:07:17
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
sounds interesting... *goes and read the series for the gazillionth time, looking for obscure facts*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 23:08:23
subject: <b>Blarg!</b>
body:
OK, Demandred is in the south, Sammael says so in LOC.  &quot;Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them.&quot;  He also says something about proxies which I don't remember exactly off the top of my head.<br /><br />The AS with the BoTO came from various places -- Tenobia had a few, Paitar had a few, etc.  Not from all one place.  We have no idea what the BoTO is up to, and it makes sense that a Forsaken is behind it (hey, they've got a hand in everything!) but I'm fairly certain that Demandred is in the south.<br /><br />But the Borderlands is the only place not covered by a Forsaken directly.  I think that Moridin has been/is in the Borderlands.  The DO's master plan involves the Trolloc Wars Round II, and the BoTO being away from the Blight is a step in the right direction for the DO...so my two cents, Moridin is active in the Borderlands.<br /><br />And he's not Taim.


created: 2007-11-09 08:32:35
subject: <b>Shadow's Tool</b>
body:
Taim decided join the shadow long before he became a false dragon and the M'Hael. He joined th BT to work from the inside so come TG he would supply the shadow with enough male channelers. With a sufficient number of Ashaman on the Shadows side they may turn the tide of the war( I know Rand is supposed to win but with the DF Ashaman more people will die)


created: 2004-02-29 14:50:13
subject: <b>hmmm : gateways</b>
body:
It would fit with RJ's style for the &quot;new power&quot; to refer to gateways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The subtle_knife <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />: <br /><br />It is not difficult to explain these things away - but, I wonder ! <i> Alan Turing on his premonition of Christopher Morcom's death</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 15:04:28
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
What lands would the Whitecloaks give? They don't control any lands anymore, the're like renegades now.  The Seanchan already dealt with them in Amador, kicked their asses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 00:59:01
subject: <b>it's my view that it's Masema</b>
body:
His hordes are very powerful. But the new lands thing might be a problem. But seeing as how Suroth is a DF, and many believe Masema to be as well... I think he's the more likely of the bunch.<br /><br />But perhaps the new ally might be Tiam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 10:50:03
subject: <b>I'm not so sure</b>
body:
As mentioned earlier, the Seanchan already kicked the Whitecloaks arses, and they are on the run.  I'm not so sure the Whitecloaks would want to treat with the Seanchan at this point.<br /><br />Also, the conversation between Asunawa and Valda that was referenced herein, whenever referring to Seanchan does so in a most unfriendly manner.  They express no desire to return to Seanchan held lands (See &quot;Where are the Whitecloaks headed?&quot; by yours truly).  I believe the Whitecloaks are undoubtedly headed north, but that is another matter.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-01 14:14:51
subject: <b>A powerful ally that will give access to many lands?</b>
body:
The Seanchan empire was built by using damane. They know the value of channelers as a fighting force, as well as a well disciplined army. <br /><br />The Shaido have both of these. Not only that, they undoubtedly still have the 'fool' boxes that Sammael gave them when he scattered them. Sevanna knows that it sent her people to different places, as witnessed by the Septs that have been rejoining her. <br /><br />Of course, we know they won't work, but, Sammy told her that they needed time to recharge, so she might still be thinking that they will work again, and convinced Suroth of this. Semirhage could use the same ploy Sammy did, and open gateways to wherever she wanted to, or call on her ally Demandred to help make the ruse work again.<br /><br />Unlikely perhaps, but possible. I myself am unsure about the whole scenario, and will do a reread soon to see if their is anything else to be gleaned in this regard. <br /><br />I'll withhold my vote until I feel more confident of the situation.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 17:36:13
subject: <b>Good Start but...</b>
body:
I think that you have a good start, but you may be missing something.  WHY would Masema be meeting with the Seanchan?  Masema is freakingly insanely committed to Rand and the cause of the Light.  So much so, that I can imagine him treating with the &quot;enemy&quot; in order to stop the Seanchan and act on Rand's behalf.  The &quot;new power&quot; spoken of, I believe, is Masema's promise that he would work on a treaty between Rand and the Seanchan, after he saw that that would be the only way for Rand to take.  People don't give Masema enough credit.  He WAS a soldier and he DID take over Ghealdan by coercion, etc., and force if necessary.  I'm sure he has seen the way to take the Seanchan - which is the way that Rand has seen.<br />The major question is:  How long has Masema been planning this?  Obviously he started right before Perrin showed up, which is why he acted surprised about going to see Rand and then readily agreed.  He knew that that would work perfectly with his plan.<br />So, your theory is partially correct, but the new ally seems to be a combination of Rand and Masema, whynot.  The timeline works out and would account for all possibilities.  I guess we can only what to RAFO if this is correct.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 19:12:48
subject: <b>My reasons for making Masema second to Whitiecloaks</b>
body:
I put Masema as my second choice as I consider it more likely that his dealings with Suroth are part of a darkfriend plot, and whatever he is doing seems to be for his own benefit rather than Rands, in addition all his meetings with the Seanchan have been in secret away from Seanchan held lands making it harder for rumours of the dealings to leak out. I do think he is a strong candidate though but the whitecloaks are even stronger <br /><br />I believe that Valdas hostility to the Seanchan is a ruse by Robert Jordan to throw us off who they are meeting, but still give us enough hints in the passage that it is the Seanchan he is going to meet, so that it makes sense when it is revealed in book 11 (or 12).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have no patience for Fools or Idiots....its just a shame I know so many<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 21:44:34
subject: <b>Nice one!</b>
body:
I like the theory.  I haven't read CoT in a while, but I will definitely look at the prologue a little differently with this idea in mind.  If the quote of the rumor is &quot;access to many lands&quot;, as opposed to &quot;control&quot; for example, then I think this could be fulfilled by the Whitecloaks and their network.  Since the main Whitecloak nemesis has always been the Aes Sedai, they may make quite natural allies with the Seanchan, who can control female channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-02 21:59:26
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
i dont think so. remember, the whitecloaks hate channelers more than the seanchan do, and would never ally themselves with those &quot;witches.&quot;


created: 2004-03-02 22:31:37
subject: <b>Masema</b>
body:
I don't think Masema is a DF.  The man is absolutely, positively, insane.  Not stupid, but insane.  I tend to agree the idea that he's been plotting something, presenting himself to the Seanchan as Rand's emissary, able to speak in Rand's name.  Whether or not they truly believe him, they themselves may see Masema as a means to get to Rand.  They're in a mutually parasitic relationship.<br /><br />Meanwhile, while the Whitecloacks may ally themselves with the Seanchan, they can't possibly be in any way eager, nor do I think the WC's are like-minded about channelers.  According to Carridin's POV, WC's view ALL channeling as a kind of blasphemy (save the Chosen, in his corrupted view).  They want channelers DEAD, not used as weapons, because channeling the OP is considered sacrilegious.<br /><br />Not that I'm 100% convinced it's Masema, but he seems a bit more likely to offer power than the WCs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 16:03:53
subject: <b>Traveling Seanchan</b>
body:
When I read CoT, I initially thought that the new power was Perrin. After all, his colleague Tallanvor found help in a Seanchan army of 15,000 also hunting the Shaido near So Habor.<br /><br />Then the speculation of Traveling Gateways made me think twice.<br /><br />Karede was studying a map of Tar Valon, indicating that the Seanchan plan to attack the White Tower soon. Without gateways, it could not be soon. The Seanchan still had to cross Murandy and Andor, and trek across the empty Caralain Grass to reach Tar Valon. If the Seanchan sul'dam somehow got hold of the Travel weave from captured Aes Sedai, the problem is solved. Traveling would indeed give access to many lands, in fact, to the entire world.<br /><br />But...Tallanvor's still making me lean toward Perrin as the new Seanchan ally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 11:34:28
subject: <b>Loony theories:</b>
body:
#1 The Sharans! <br /><br />#2 Forsaken! Fades wearing makeup on their faces will march with the Seanchan!<br /><br />#3 Belanarg!


created: 2004-03-08 11:06:18
subject: <b>Amador</b>
body:
If the seanchan made peace with the whitecloaks, they could prevent civilunrest in amador: the king died during the takeover. amador is without its king. the whitecloaks could become puppets for the seanchan. after all, the whitecloaks don't have much of a choice: they cant destroya the white tower if they are dead, so better to be a seanchan puppet than an enemy. Since valda may be above the average politian, military commander and soldier, he has probably realised this. he would could have as much power as he ad before he became the highest in command. its better that valda takes order than gives orders. the fortress of light was only temporary in the hands of suroth. Think she moved to ebou dar. she destroyed their old banner and such, but who cares. Valda could be like a new ailron.


created: 2004-03-10 10:06:24
subject: <b>Fanatics</b>
body:
Major problem is that a lot of WCs are religious fanatics or they know THE TRUTH. To that kind of people anybody who disagrees with THE TRUTH is a enemy and their holy duty is kill him. So if Valda tries to make Children subjects or allies of &quot;darkpals&quot; his own men will execute him as a traitor.


created: 2004-03-17 23:24:36
subject: <b>My ideas</b>
body:
Semirage:  semirage could give the Seanchan gateways which would give them access to many lands.  Also, depending on timelines, the ally could be Rand under Semirage's control.  If you accept the idea that Semirage has a fake DONM who is to meet with Rand, then it is possible that this meeting could have already taken place.  I beleive this is most likely what has happened and that by the time Mat hears the rumour, Rand has already met the fake DONM and been collarred by Semirage with the male a'dam.  It would not be the first time that the timelines have gotten crossed, distorted, especially in the last two books where the beginning of COT actually starts before the end of WH. I like this idea best because the other candidates are too low-powered to be considered at this time of the story.  Masema, the Whitecloaks, etc are much less powerful then the Seanchan, especially now that Semirage is there to take full control of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 19:51:53
subject: <b>The new ally is Rand al'Thor</b>
body:
No doubt the Seanchan have been circulating rumours about their distorted prophecies of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne, and announced that he would be coming to them. Maybe Bashere's passage also left it's trace.<br /><br />Makes much more sense than Whitecloaks being allied with an army ( reputedly of Darkfriends, judging from <i>The Great Hunt</i> ) using Shadowspawn and Witches.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 14:55:37
body: Just shocked!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>
subject:
<b>This is a theory? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>


created: 2004-02-29 15:44:24
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
We would surely know it if Karede had a relationship with the Empress in the past.<br /><br />But the question is if Karede loves Tuon like a woman or like a daughter. <br />I would say the second option is right.<br /><br />BTW, the name of the woman with Bayle Domon is Egeanin.


created: 2004-02-29 19:37:10
subject: <b>Etzel has it right</b>
body:
Tuon told Mat that her father died of a &quot;bad wager&quot;.<br />We don`t yet know what that means.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 21:47:55
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
when she said he &quot;died because of a bad wager&quot; she could have meant that he wsa turned into a da'covale after losing a wager. because beig turned into a da'covale is the same thing as dieing to the seanchan isnt it?


created: 2004-03-01 00:32:11
subject: <b>Very unlikely....</b>
body:
It's my view that the reason he's so attached to Tuon is that he's got a thing for Selucia(she likes dangerous men, plus he's taken arrows in the back for her).<br /><br />Not a bad idea though. I just don't think that someone who's father is unknown or a slave could be first inline to the crystal throne (maybe, but doubt it would go down like that).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 04:39:12
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
but thanks for thinking outside the box <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 13:33:10
subject: <b>I agree with Jofraz</b>
body:
She says her father is dead. <br /><br />We'll just have to live with that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 17:25:47
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
Karede pov has been shown in the books and if she WAS his daughter, I think a more fatherly tone would have been taken.  Also, he's not that many years older than her and the view that he gives off is just that he has an attachment to her.  More like one in which a soldier who thought he had severed all emotions becoming emotionally attached to his charge.<br />Anyways, seems like a decent theory, but I just can't see the point in Karede being Tuon's father.  What contribution to the story would it make?  The story is fine with Karede just being an emotionally involved soldier - similiar to the Tallanvor character.  AND, there's no proof that would even indicate something like Karede being Tuon's father.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 20:17:02
subject: <b>say WHAT?</b>
body:
So, to recap, you think that Karede is Tuon's long lost father.  Then you bring up how Egeanin sleeps with Domon.  Then you say that you think Karede wants to become Tuon's da'covale for the same reason.<br /><br />Let's forget the lack of evidence to support the conclusion that Karede is Tuon's father.  <br /><br />Unless I'm really off here, are you suggesting that Tuon's father wants to be her lover?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 00:07:54
subject: <b>Bad Wager</b>
body:
I'm writing off the cuff with no books in front of me - Tuon Father Dies of a Bad Wager?  Isn't One of the 'Fun&quot; passtimes hooking up damane to men to see if they die?  If he did that would support Tuon ability to channel that she would have inherited it at least form her father's side.


created: 2005-04-07 23:55:00
subject: <b>Tuon's pa</b>
body:
I think that the bad wager Tuon refers to maybe a gamble for the crystal throne. Maybe he tried to depose the empress, failed, and was executed at the  Tower of Ravens!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The truth it doesn't seem,<br />present in what we see,<br />its crouched in moonbeams,<br />that light our midnight dreams.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-15 02:51:05
subject: <b>WE don't know</b>
body:
In all truth we don't have enough evidence to prove if Kadre is her father or not.  What we do know is that he seems to love her like a daughter, but I believe its more his love of duty more than a fathers love.


created: 2007-01-03 17:57:58
subject: <b>age</b>
body:
Karede is a lot older than Tuon; I would think, at least 20 years older. He was a grown man when he was in her bodyguard when she was a little girl.<br /><br />I think that Karede PoV is just another hint from RJ that there is more to the Seachan than just evil empire.<br />If even a soldier of the Deathwatch Guard is painted with such emotions, it shows us readers that there is more than meets the eye.<br />Karede is just very attached to Tuon. No specific reason other than he admires her IIRC.<br /><br />I also think that he will help Tuon get back her empire; not just because he is Deathwatch Guard but because of his affection for her.<br />And since he's also a great general he might have a role to play in TG.


created: 2009-07-18 03:01:43
subject: <b>Karede;s family</b>
body:
Furik Karede had a wife and a son who died in the great fire at Sohima (?). His PoV makes it clear that he loved them very much - he's even wistfully contemplated healing for them despite his fear of AS and the OP. I think that Seanchan are monogamous though the rules may be different for the royals.<br /><br />Somehow I doubt that Da'covale or not, Karede would have slept with the late Empress Rhadannon, (may she live forever). Quite apart from Tuon's comments about her dad and the rumour that hermother had come to love her father. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-02-29 15:53:23
subject: <b>Ok here's where I think you went wrong.</b>
body:
The books that I read in my theology classes and my christian theologian PHDs say otherwise.<br /><br />Mohammad was run out of Mecca first, there were many attempts on his life by the Meccan pagans in power.  Mohammad was known to be a very honest and sincere man even before his prophetic life, so this is the reason why he was invited to Medina in order to mediate between two parties at odds.  He only agreed to go there if only they would give refuge to his followers who were being murdered by the Meccans.  <br />Mohammad never raided Caravans for fun nor for money.  After a while the people of Medina really embraced him and his people and converted to monotheism, and they provided Mohammad with food or whatever.  Remember he was himself a Caravan merchant and he would hafe frowned upon for the Caravans to be attacked, no matter who they belonged to.  <br /><br />Before he went back to Mecca there were 2 major battles in Medina where the Meccans came and tried to execute him.  After winning decisevly and being outnumbered and outarmed, fighting with old people and young kids, his following increased, and only after numerous attempts in his life did he finally choose to go to Mecca and take the battle to the people that wanted him dead.  After taking Mecca, he forgave every living person in there, including the ones that had tried to kill him and no one was prosecuted nor punished for any reason.  So those people embraced him also.<br /><br />Massema on the other hand:  Well you know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 16:40:13
subject: <b>Here's a small explanation of Islam and Mohammad</b>
body:
Mohammed The Prophet<br />By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy,<br />Government College for Women University of Mysore, Mandya-571401 (Karnatika).<br /><br />Re-printed from &quot;Islam and Modern age&quot;, Hydrabad, March 1978.<br /> A paper by a non-muslim.<br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />In the desert of Arabia was Mohammad born, according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571. The name means highly praised. He is to me the greatest mind among all the sons of Arabia. He means so much more than all the poets and kings that preceded him in that impenetrable desert of red sand. <br />When he appeared Arabia was a desert -- a nothing. Out of nothing a new world was fashioned by the mighty spirit of Mohammad -- a new life, a new culture, a new civilization, a new kingdom which extended from Morocco to Indies and influenced the thought and life of three continents -- Asia, Africa and Europe. <br /><br />When I thought of writing on Mohammad the prophet, I was a bit hesitant because it was to write about a religion I do not profess and it is a delicate matter to do so for there are many persons professing various religions and belonging to diverse school of thought and denominations even in same religion. Though it is sometimes, claimed that religion is entirely personal yet it can not be gain-said that it has a tendency to envelop the whole universe seen as well unseen. It somehow permeates something or other our hearts, our souls, our minds their conscious as well as subconscious and unconscious levels too. The problem assumes overwhelming importance when there is a deep conviction that our past, present and future all hang by the soft delicate, tender silked cord. If we further happen to be highly sensitive, the center of gravity is very likely to be always in a state of extreme tension. Looked at from this point of view, the less said about other religion the better. Let our religions be deeply hidden and embedded in the resistance of our innermost hearts fortified by unbroken seals on our lips. <br /><br />But there is another aspect of this problem. Man lives in society. Our lives are bound with the lives of others willingly or unwillingly, directly or indirectly. We eat the food grown in the same soil, drink water, from the same the same spring and breathe the same air. Even while staunchly holding our own views, it would be helpful, if we try to adjust ourselves to our surroundings, if we also know to some extent, how the mind our neighbor moves and what the main springs of his actions are. From this angle of vision it is highly desirable that one should try to know all religions of the world, in the proper sprit, to promote mutual understanding and better appreciation of our neighborhood, immediate and remote. <br /><br />Further, our thoughts are not scattered as appear to be on the surface. They have got themselves crystallized around a few nuclei in the form of great world religions and living faiths that guide and motivate the lives of millions that inhabit this earth of ours. It is our duty, in one sense if we have the ideal of ever becoming a citizen of the world before us, to make a little attempt to know the great religions and system of philosophy that have ruled mankind. <br /><br />In spite of these preliminary remarks, the ground in these field of religion, where there is often a conflict between intellect and emotion is so slippery that one is constantly reminded of fools that rush in where angels fear to tread. It is also not so complex from another point of view. The subject of my writing is about the tenets of a religion which is historic and its prophet who is also a historic personality. Even a hostile critic like Sir William Muir speaking about the holy Quran says that. &quot;There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries with so pure text.&quot; I may also add Prophet Mohammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery. <br /><br />My work today is further lightened because those days are fast disappearing when Islam was highly misrepresented by some of its critics for reasons political and otherwise. Prof. Bevan writes in Cambridge Medieval History, &quot;Those account of Mohammad and Islam which were published in Europe before the beginning of 19th century are now to be regarded as literary curiosities.&quot; My problem is to write this monograph is easier because we are now generally not fed on this kind of history and much time need be spent on pointing out our misrepresentation of Islam. <br /><br />The theory of Islam and Sword for instance is not heard now frequently in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion is well known. Gibbon, a historian of world repute says, &quot;A pernicious tenet has been imputed to Mohammadans, the duty of extirpating all the religions by sword.&quot; This charge based on ignorance and bigotry, says the eminent historian, is refuted by Quran, by history of Musalman conquerors and by their public and legal toleration of Christian worship. The great success of Mohammad's life had been effected by sheer moral force, without a stroke of sword. <br /><br />But in pure self-defense, after repeated efforts of conciliation had utterly failed, circumstances dragged him into the battlefield. But the prophet of Islam changed the whole strategy of the battlefield. The total number of casualties in all the wars that took place during his lifetime when the whole Arabian Peninsula came under his banner, does not exceed a few hundreds in all. But even on the battlefield he taught the Arab barbarians to pray, to pray not individually, but in congregation to God the Almighty. During the dust and storm of warfare whenever the time for prayer came, and it comes five times a every day, the congregation prayer had not to be postponed even on the battlefield. A party had to be engaged in bowing their heads before God while other was engaged with the enemy. After finishing the prayers, the two parties had to exchange their positions. To the Arabs, who would fight for forty years on the slight provocation that a camel belonging to the guest of one tribe had strayed into the grazing land belonging to other tribe and both sides had fought till they lost 70,000 lives in all; threatening the extinction of both the tribes to such furious Arabs, the Prophet of Islam taught self-control and discipline to the extent of praying even on the battlefield. In an aged of barbarism, the Battlefield itself was humanized and strict instructions were issued not to cheat, not to break trust, not to mutilate, not to kill a child or woman or an old man, not to hew down date palm nor burn it, not to cut a fruit tree, not to molest any person engaged in worship. His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers. At the conquest of Mecca, he stood at the zenith of his power. The city which had refused to listen to his mission, which had tortured him and his followers, which had driven him and his people into exile and which had unrelentingly persecuted and boycotted him even when he had taken refuge in a place more than 200 miles away, that city now lay at his feet. By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Mohammad's heart flowed with affection and he declared, &quot;This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free.&quot; &quot;This day&quot; he proclaimed, &quot;I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man.&quot; <br /><br />This was one of the chief objects why he permitted war in self defense, that is to unite human beings. And when once this object was achieved, even his worst enemies were pardoned. Even those who killed his beloved uncle, Hamazah, mangled his body, ripped it open, even chewed a piece of his liver. <br /><br />The principles of universal brotherhood and doctrine of the equality of mankind which he proclaimed represents one very great contribution of Mohammad to the social uplift of humanity. All great religions have preached the same doctrine but the prophet of Islam had put this theory into actual practice and its value will be fully recognized, perhaps centuries hence, when international consciousness being awakened, racial prejudices may disappear and greater brotherhood of humanity come into existence. <br /><br />Miss. Sarojini Naidu speaking about this aspect of Islam says, &quot;It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great.&quot; The great poetess of India continues, &quot;I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another.&quot; <br /><br />Mahatma Gandhi, in his inimitable style, says &quot;Some one has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded.&quot; <br /><br />Every year, during the Haj, the world witnesses the wonderful spectacle of this international Exhibition of Islam in leveling all distinctions of race, color and rank. Not only the Europeans, the African, the Arabian, the Persian, the Indians, the Chinese all meet together in Medina as members of one divine family, but they are clad in one dress every person in two simple pieces of white seamless cloth, one piece round the loin the other piece over the shoulders, bare head without pomp or ceremony, repeating &quot;Here am I O God; at thy command; thou art one and alone; Here am I.&quot; Thus there remains nothing to differentiate the high from the low and every pilgrim carries home the impression of the international significance of Islam. <br /><br />In the opinion of Prof. Hurgronje &quot;the league of nations founded by prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity of human brotherhood on such Universal foundations as to show candle to other nations.&quot; In the words of same Professor &quot;the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done the realization of the idea of the League of Nations.&quot; <br /><br />The prophet of Islam brought the reign of democracy in its best form. The Caliph Caliph Ali and the son in-law of the prophet, the Caliph Mansur, Abbas, the son of Caliph Mamun and many other caliphs and kings had to appear before the judge as ordinary men in Islamic courts. Even today we all know how the black Negroes were treated by the civilized white races. Consider the state of BILAL, a Negro Slave, in the days of the prophet of Islam nearly 14 centuries ago. The office of calling Muslims to prayer was considered to be of status in the early days of Islam and it was offered to this Negro slave. After the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet ordered him to call for prayer and the Negro slave, with his black color and his thick lips, stood over the roof of the holy mosque at Mecca called the Ka'ba the most historic and the holiest mosque in the Islamic world, when some proud Arabs painfully cried loud, &quot;Oh, this black Negro Slave, woe be to him. He stands on the roof of holy Ka'ba to call for prayer.&quot; At that moment, the prophet announced to the world, this verse of the holy QURAN for the first time. <br /><br /><br />&quot;O mankind, surely we have created you, families and tribes, so you may know one another.<br />Surely, the most honorable of you with God is MOST RIGHTEOUS AMONG you.<br />Surely, God is Knowing, Aware.&quot; <br /><br />And these words of the holy Quran created such a mighty transformation that the Caliph of Islam, the purest of Arabs by birth, offered their daughter in marriage to this Negro Slave, and whenever, the second Caliph of Islam, known to history as Umar the great, the commander of faithful, saw this Negro slave, he immediately stood in reverence and welcomed him by &quot;Here come our master; Here come our lord.&quot; What a tremendous change was brought by Quran in the Arabs, the proudest people at that time on the earth. This is the reason why Goethe, the greatest of German poets, speaking about the Holy Quran declared that, &quot;This book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence.&quot; This is also the reason why George Bernard Shaw says, &quot;If any religion has a chance or ruling over England, say, Europe, within the next 100 years, it is Islam&quot;. <br />It is this same democratic spirit of Islam that emancipated women from the bondage of man. Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton says &quot;Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man. It teaches that man and woman and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual and moral attainments.&quot; <br /><br />The Arabs had a very strong tradition that one who can smite with the spear and can wield the sword would inherit. But Islam came as the defender of the weaker sex and entitled women to share the inheritance of their parents. It gave women, centuries ago right of owning property, yet it was only 12 centuries later , in 1881, that England, supposed to be the cradle of democracy adopted this institution of Islam and the act was called &quot;the married woman act&quot;, but centuries earlier, the Prophet of Islam had proclaimed that &quot;Woman are twin halves of men. The rights of women are sacred. See that women maintained rights granted to them.&quot; <br /><br />Islam is not directly concerned with political and economic systems, but indirectly and in so far as political and economic affairs influence man's conduct, it does lay down some very important principles to govern economic life. According to Prof. Massignon, it maintains the balance between exaggerated opposites and has always in view the building of character which is the basis of civilization. This is secured by its law of inheritance, by an organized system of charity known as Zakat, and by regarding as illegal all anti-social practices in the economic field like monopoly, usury, securing of predetermined unearned income and increments, cornering markets, creating monopolies, creating an artificial scarcity of any commodity in order to force the prices to rise. Gambling is illegal. Contribution to schools, to places of worship, hospitals, digging of wells, opening of orphanages are highest acts of virtue. Orphanages have sprung for the first time, it is said, under the teaching of the prophet of Islam. The world owes its orphanages to this prophet born an orphan. &quot;Good all this&quot; says Carlyle about Mohammad. &quot;The natural voice of humanity, of pity and equity, dwelling in the heart of this wild son of nature, speaks.&quot; <br /><br />A historian once said a great man should be judged by three tests: Was he found to be of true metel by his contemporaries ? Was he great enough to raise above the standards of his age ? Did he leave anything as permanent legacy to the world at large ? This list may be further extended but all these three tests of greatness are eminently satisfied to the highest degree in case of prophet Mohammad. Some illustrations of the last two have already been mentioned. <br /><br />The first is: Was the Prophet of Islam found to be of true metel by his contemporaries? <br /><br />Historical records show that all the contemporaries of Mohammad both friends foes, acknowledged the sterling qualities, the spotless honesty, the noble virtues, the absolute sincerity and every trustworthiness of the apostle of Islam in all walks of life and in every sphere of human activity. Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message, adopted him as the arbiter in their personal disputes by virtue of his perfect impartiality. Even those who did not believe in his message were forced to say &quot;O Mohammad, we do not call you a liar, but we deny him who has given you a book and inspired you with a message.&quot; They thought he was one possessed. They tried violence to cure him. But the best of them saw that a new light had dawned on him and they hastened him to seek the enlightenment. It is a notable feature in the history of prophet of Islam that his nearest relation, his beloved cousin and his bosom friends, who know him most intimately, were not thoroughly imbued with the truth of his mission and were convinced of the genuineness of his divine inspiration. If these men and women, noble, intelligent, educated and intimately acquainted with his private life had perceived the slightest signs of deception, fraud, earthliness, or lack of faith in him, Mohammad's moral hope of regeneration, spiritual awakening, and social reform would all have been foredoomed to a failure and whole edifice would have crumbled to pieces in a moment. On the contrary, we find that devotion of his followers was such that he was voluntarily acknowledged as dictator of their lives. They braved for him persecutions and danger; they trusted, obeyed and honored him even in the most excruciating torture and severest mental agony caused by excommunication even unto death. Would this have been so, had they noticed the slightest backsliding in their master? <br /><br />Read the history of the early converts to Islam, and every heart would melt at the sight of the brutal treatment of innocent Muslim men and women. <br /><br />Sumayya, an innocent women, is cruelly torn into pieces with spears. An example is made of &quot;Yassir whose legs are tied to two camels and the beast were are driven in opposite directions&quot;, Khabbab bin Arth is made lie down on the bed of burning coal with the brutal legs of their merciless tyrant on his breast so that he may not move and this makes even the fat beneath his skin melt. &quot;Khabban bin Adi is put to death in a cruel manner by mutilation and cutting off his flesh piece-meal.&quot; In the midst of his tortures, being asked weather he did not wish Mohammad in his place while he was in his house with his family, the sufferer cried out that he was gladly prepared to sacrifice himself his family and children and why was it that these sons and daughters of Islam not only surrendered to their prophet their allegiance but also made a gift of their hearts and souls to their master? Is not the intense faith and conviction on part of immediate followers of Mohammad, the noblest testimony to his sincerity and to his utter self-absorption in his appointed task? <br /><br />And these men were not of low station or inferior mental caliber. Around him in quite early days, gathered what was best and noblest in Mecca, its flower and cream, men of position, rank, wealth and culture, and from his own kith and kin, those who knew all about his life. All the first four Caliphs, with their towering personalities, were converts of this period. <br /><br />The Encyclopedia Brittanica says that &quot;Mohammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities&quot;. <br /><br />But the success was not the result of mere accident. It was not a hit of fortune. It was a recognition of fact that he was found to be true metal by his contemporaries. It was the result of his admirable and all compelling personality. <br /><br />The personality of Mohammad! It is most difficult to get into the truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Mohammad the Prophet, there is Mohammad the General; Mohammad the King; Mohammad the Warrior; Mohammad the Businessman; Mohammad the Preacher; Mohammad the Philosopher; Mohammad the Statesman; Mohammad the Orator; Mohammad the reformer; Mohammad the Refuge of orphans; Mohammad the Protector of slaves; Mohammad the Emancipator of women; Mohammad the Law-giver; Mohammad the Judge; Mohammad the Saint. <br /><br />And in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like, a hero.. <br /><br />Orphanhood is extreme of helplessness and his life upon this earth began with it; Kingship is the height of the material power and it ended with it. From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and Arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its up and downs, its terror and splendor, he has stood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. His achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions. <br /><br />If for instance, greatness consist in the purification of a nation, steeped in barbarism and immersed in absolute moral darkness, that dynamic personality who has transformed, refined and uplifted an entire nation, sunk low as the Arabs were, and made them the torch-bearer of civilization and learning, has every claim to greatness. If greatness lies in unifying the discordant elements of society by ties of brotherhood and charity, the prophet of the desert has got every title to this distinction. If greatness consists in reforming those warped in degrading and blind superstition and pernicious practices of every kind, the prophet of Islam has wiped out superstitions and irrational fear from the hearts of millions. If it lies in displaying high morals, Mohammad has been admitted by friend and foe as Al Amin, or the faithful. If a conqueror is a great man, here is a person who rose from helpless orphan and an humble creature to be the ruler of Arabia, the equal to Chosroes and Caesars, one who founded great empire that has survived all these 14 centuries. If the devotion that a leader commands is the criterion of greatness, the prophet's name even today exerts a magic charm over millions of souls, spread all over the world. <br /><br />He had not studied philosophy in the school of Athens of Rome, Persia, India, or China. Yet, He could proclaim the highest truths of eternal value to mankind. Illiterate himself, he could yet speak with an eloquence and fervor which moved men to tears, to tears of ecstasy. Born an orphan blessed with no worldly goods, he was loved by all. He had studied at no military academy; yet he could organize his forces against tremendous odds and gained victories through the moral forces which he marshaled. Gifted men with genius for preaching are rare. Descartes included the perfect preacher among the rarest kind in the world. Hitler in his Mein Kamp has expressed a similar view. He says &quot;A great theorist is seldom a great leader. An Agitator is more likely to posses these qualities. He will always be a great leader. For leadership means ability to move masses of men. The talents to produce ideas has nothing in common with capacity for leadership.&quot; &quot;But&quot;, he says, &quot;The Union of theorists, organizer and leader in one man, is the rarest phenomenon on this earth; Therein consists greatness.&quot; <br /><br />In the person of the Prophet of Islam the world has seen this rarest phenomenon walking on the earth, walking in flesh and blood. <br /><br />And more wonderful still is what the reverend Bosworth Smith remarks, &quot;Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope's claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without an standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a right divine It was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life.&quot; <br /><br />After the fall of Mecca, more than one million square miles of land lay at his feet, Lord of Arabia, he mended his own shoes and coarse woolen garments, milked the goats, swept the hearth, kindled the fire and attended the other menial offices of the family. The entire town of Medina where he lived grew wealthy in the later days of his life. Everywhere there was gold and silver in plenty and yet in those days of prosperity many weeks would elapse without a fire being kindled in the hearth of the king of Arabia, His food being dates and water. His family would go hungry many nights successively because they could not get anything to eat in the evening. He slept on no soften bed but on a palm mat, after a long busy day to spend most of his night in prayer, often bursting with tears before his creator to grant him strength to discharge his duties. As the reports go, his voice would get choked with weeping and it would appear as if a cooking pot was on fire and boiling had commenced. On the very day of his death his only assets were few coins a part of which went to satisfy a debt and rest was given to a needy person who came to his house for charity. The clothes in which he breathed his last had many patches. The house from where light had spread to the world was in darkness because there was no oil in the lamp. <br /><br />Circumstances changed, but the prophet of God did not. In victory or in defeat, in power or in adversity, in affluence or in indigence, he is the same man, disclosed the same character. Like all the ways and laws of God, Prophets of God are unchangeable. <br /><br />An honest man, as the saying goes, is the noblest work of God, Mohammad was more than honest. He was human to the marrow of his bones. Human sympathy, human love was the music of his soul. To serve man, to elevate man, to purify man, to educate man, in a word to humanize man-this was the object of his mission, the be-all and end all of his life. In thought, in word, in action he had the good of humanity as his sole inspiration, his sole guiding principle. <br /><br />He was most unostentatious and selfless to the core. What were the titles he assumed? Only true servant of God and His Messenger. Servant first, and then a messenger. A Messenger and prophet like many other prophets in every part of the world, some known to you, many not known you. If one does not believe in any of these truths one ceases to be a Muslim. It is an article of faith. <br /><br />&quot;Looking at the circumstances of the time and unbounded reverence of his followers&quot; says a western writer &quot;the most miraculous thing about Mohammad is, that he never claimed the power of working miracles.&quot; Miracles were performed but not to propagate his faith and were attributed entirely to God and his inscrutable ways. He would plainly say that he was a man like others. He had no treasures of earth or heaven. Nor did he claim to know the secrets of that lie in womb of future. All this was in an age when miracles were supposed to be ordinary occurrences, at the back and call of the commonest saint, when the whole atmosphere was surcharged with supernaturalism in Arabia and outside Arabia. <br /><br />He turned the attention of his followers towards the study of nature and its laws, to understand them and appreciate the Glory of God. The Quran says, <br /><br />&quot;God did not create the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in play. He did not create them all but with the truth. But most men do not know.&quot; <br />The world is not illusion, nor without purpose. It has been created with the truth. The number of verses inviting close observation of nature are several times more than those that relate to prayer, fasting, pilgrimage etc. all put together. The Muslim under its influence began to observe nature closely and this give birth to the scientific spirit of the observation and experiment which was unknown to the Greeks. While the Muslim Botanist Ibn Baitar wrote on Botany after collecting plants from all parts of the world, described by Myer in his Gesch. der Botanikaa-s, a monument of industry, while Al Byruni traveled for forty years to collect mineralogical specimens, and Muslim Astronomers made some observations extending even over twelve years. Aristotle wrote on Physics without performing a single experiment, wrote on natural history, carelessly stating without taking the trouble to ascertain the most verifiable fact that men have more teeth than animal. Galen, the greatest authority on classical anatomy informed that the lower jaw consists of two bones, a statement which is accepted unchallenged for centuries till Abdul Lateef takes the trouble to examine a human skeleton. After enumerating several such instances, Robert Priffault concludes in his well known book The making of humanity, &quot;The debt of our science to the Arabs does not consist in starting discovers or revolutionary theories. Science owes a great more to Arabs culture; it owes is existence.&quot; The same writer says &quot;The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized but patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental inquiry, were altogether alien to Greek temperament. What we call science arose in Europe as result of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these methods, concludes the same author, were introduced into the European world by Arabs.&quot; <br />It is the same practical character of the teaching of Prophet Mohammad that gave birth to the scientific spirit, that has also sanctified the daily labors and the so called mundane affairs. The Quran says that God has created man to worship him but the word worship has a connotation of its own. Gods worship is not confined to prayer alone, but every act that is done with the purpose of winning approval of God and is for the benefit of the humanity comes under its purview. Islam sanctifies life and all its pursuits provided they are performed with honesty, justice and pure intents. It obliterates the age-long distinction between the sacred and profane. The Quran says if you eat clean things and thank God for it, it is an act of worship. It is saying of the prophet of Islam that Morsel of food that one places in the mouth of his wife is an act of virtue to be rewarded by God. Another tradition of the Prophet says &quot;He who is satisfying the desire of his heart will be rewarded by God provided the methods adopted are permissible.&quot; A person was listening to him exclaimed 'O Prophet of God, he is answering the calls of passions, is only satisfying the craving of his heart. Forthwith came the reply, &quot;Had he adopted an awful method for the satisfaction of his urge, he would have been punished; then why should he not be rewarded for following the right course.&quot; <br /><br />This new conception of religion that it should also devote itself to the betterment of this life rather than concern itself exclusively with super mundane affairs, has led to a new orientation of moral values. Its abiding influence on the common relations of mankind in the affairs of every day life, its deep power over the masses, its regulation of their conception of rights and duty, its suitability and adaptability to the ignorant savage and the wise philosopher are characteristic features of the teaching of the Prophet of Islam. <br /><br />But it should be most carefully born in mind this stress on good actions is not the sacrifice correctness of faith. While there are various school of thought, one praising faith at the expense of deeds, another exhausting various acts to the detriment of correct belief, Islam is based on correct faith and righteous actions. Means are important as the end and ends are as important as the means. It is an organic Unity. Together they live and thrive. Separate them and both decay and die. In Islam faith can not be divorced from the action. Right knowledge should be transferred into right action to produce the right results. How often the words came in Quran -- Those who believe and do good thing, they alone shall enter paradise. Again and again, not less than fifty times these words are repeated as if too much stress can not be laid on them. Contemplation is encouraged but mere contemplation is not the goal. Those who believe and do nothing can not exist in Islam. These who believe and do wrong are inconceivable. Divine law is the law of effort and not of ideals. It chalks out for the men the path of eternal progress from knowledge to action and from action to satisfaction. <br /><br />But what is the correct faith from which right action spontaneously proceeds resulting in complete satisfaction. Here the central doctrine of Islam is the Unity of God. There is no God but God is the pivot from which hangs the whole teaching and practice of Islam. He is unique not only as regards his divine being but also as regards his divine attributes. <br /><br />As regards the attributes of God, Islam adopts here as in other things too, the law of golden mean. It avoids on the one hand, the view of God which divests the divine being of every attribute and rejects, on the other, the view which likens him to things material. The Quran says, On the one hand, there is nothing which is like him, on the other , it affirms that he is Seeing, Hearing, Knowing. He is the King who is without a stain of fault or deficiency, the mighty ship of His power floats upon the ocean of justice and equity. He is the Beneficent, the Merciful. He is the Guardian over all. Islam does not stop with this positive statement. It adds further which is its most special characteristic, the negative aspects of problem. There is also no one else who is guardian over everything. He is the meander of every breakage, and no one else is the meander of any breakage. He is the restorer of every loss and no one else is the restorer of any loss what-so-over. There is no God but one God, above any need, the maker of bodies, creator of souls, the Lord of the day of judgment, and in short, in the words of Quran, to him belong all excellent qualities. <br /><br />Regarding the position of man in relation to the Universe, the Quran says: <br /><br />&quot;God has made subservient to you whatever is on the earth or in universe. You are destined to rule over the Universe.&quot;<br /><br />But in relation to God, the Quran says: <br />&quot;O man God has bestowed on you excellent faculties and has created life and death to put you to test in order to see whose actions are good and who has deviated from the right path.&quot; <br />In spite of free will which he enjoys, to some extent, every man is born under certain circumstances and continues to live under certain circumstances beyond his control. With regard to this God says, according to Islam, it is my will to create any man under condition that seem best to me. cosmic plans finite mortals can not fully comprehend. But I will certainly test you in prosperity as well in adversity, in health as well as in sickness, in heights as well as in depths. My ways of testing differ from man to man, from hour to hour. In adversity do not despair and do resort to unlawful means. It is but a passing phase. In prosperity do not forget God. God-gifts are given only as trusts. You are always on trial, every moment on test. In this sphere of life there is not to reason why, there is but to do and die. If you live in accordance with God; and if you die, die in the path of God. You may call it fatalism. but this type of fatalism is a condition of vigorous increasing effort, keeping you ever on the alert. Do not consider this temporal life on earth as the end of human existence. There is a life after death and it is eternal. Life after death is only a connection link, a door that opens up hidden reality of life. Every action in life however insignificant, produces a lasting effect. It is correctly recorded somehow. Some of the ways of God are known to you, but many of his ways are hidden from you. What is hidden in you and from you in this world will be unrolled and laid open before you in the next. the virtuous will enjoy the blessing of God which the eye has not seen, nor has the ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men to conceive of they will march onward reaching higher and higher stages of evolution. Those who have wasted opportunity in this life shall under the inevitable law, which makes every man taste of what he has done, be subjugated to a course of treatment of the spiritual diseases which they have brought about with their own hands. Beware, it is terrible ordeal. Bodily pain is torture, you can bear somehow. Spiritual pain is hell, you will find it almost unbearable. Fight in this life itself the tendencies of the spirit prone to evil, tempting to lead you into iniquities ways. Reach the next stage when the self-accusing sprit in your conscience is awakened and the soul is anxious to attain moral excellence and revolt against disobedience. This will lead you to the final stage of the soul at rest, contented with God, finding its happiness and delight in him alone. The soul no more stumbles. The stage of struggle passes away. Truth is victorious and falsehood lays down its arms. All complexes will then be resolved. Your house will not be divided against itself. Your personality will get integrated round the central core of submission to the will of God and complete surrender to his divine purpose. All hidden energies will then be released. The soul then will have peace. God will then address you: <br /><br />&quot;O thou soul that art at rest, and restest fully contented with thy Lord return to thy Lord. He pleased with thee and thou pleased with him; So enter among my servants and enter into my paradise.&quot;<br /><br />This is the final goal for man; to become, on the, one hand, the master of the universe and on the other, to see that his soul finds rest in his Lord, that not only his Lord will be pleased with him but that he is also pleased with his Lord. Contentment, complete contentment, satisfaction, complete satisfaction, peace, complete peace. The love of God is his food at this stage and he drinks deep at the fountain of life. Sorrow and defeat do not overwhelm him and success does not find him in vain and exulting.


created: 2004-02-29 20:03:33
subject: <b>Maybe not so incorrect...</b>
body:
<blockquote>Others, with the approval of Muhammad, set out in normal Arab fashion on razzias (ghazawat, &#8220;raids&#8221; ) in the hope of intercepting Meccan caravans passing near Medina on their way to Syria. Muhammad himself led three such razzias in 623. They all failed, probably because traitors betrayed the Muslim movements to the enemy. At last, in January 624, a small band of men was sent eastward with sealed orders telling them to proceed to Nakhlah, near Mecca, and attack a caravan from Yemen. This they did successfully, and in doing so they violated pagan ideas of sanctity&#8212;thereby making the Meccans aware of the seriousness of the threat from Muhammad.<br /><br />-Encyclopaedia Britannica<br /></blockquote>I don't know much about this, so I thought I had better check the facts. This one, at least, checks out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 20:21:14
subject: <b>Moridin_2000</b>
body:
The response just above by Blanco appears to contradict yours. For obvious reasons (far too long) I didn`t read the whole article, but I`m glad for your imput.<br /><br />Did not vote on Theory, because of ignorance. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 20:33:34
subject: <b>Well, I'm slightly annoyed with the post above..</b>
body:
..I don't have the tools to delete it, but it will be deleted. Not because of the actual content, but just on the principle that copying and pasting a number of pages of text onto a BB is not good netiquette. Grr.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 00:36:37
subject: <b>Ok, let's not make it a theology class.</b>
body:
That long pasted post is a bit overdone in my opinion, it leaves no room for discussion.  <br /><br />Just want to stand corrected by Moridin_2000 that there were perhaps raids on caravans as he found out from a reference book.<br /><br />But overall, as far as I know, I think that Mohammad was preaching peace and compassion and was for all humans being equal and respectful of others, traits which Masemma certainly does not have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 00:42:17
subject: <b>YO BLANCO!!!!</b>
body:
WHOA BUDDY!!!!Ease up dude! That was WAY to much to read!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 03:37:37
subject: <b>I'm waiting for an abject apology...</b>
body:
...from ANYONE who has ever said I go on too long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 03:45:44
subject: <b>perrin smells it</b>
body:
well, to show this theory crumbling to pieces, perrin clearly smelled that masema was insane. there is no historical evidence whatsoever to claim that the prophet muhammad was.<br /><br />case closed, theory shot down.


created: 2004-03-01 03:46:38
subject: <b>And by the way...</b>
body:
The Mohammedans in Medina did raid caravans from Mecca.  Whether or not Mohammed personally felt sympathy for fellow caravaneers (i.e. business rivals) is a ridiculous question from a historical perspective.<br /><br />And the whole resemblance of Mohammed to Maseema is purely superficial.  It is very easy to find many examples throughout history of people who rose to power in like circumstances.  It seems the intention of the author was to portray Maseema as a standard demogogue/rabble rouser and fanatic, rather than a founder of a world religion.  More of a cult leader than a true revolutionary.<br /><br />Moridin 2000 is right.  That long post is extremely rude, and insensitive to vast majority of WoT readers who are not Moslems.  The same sort of thing would be said if I posted a papal encyclical, or if a Protestant or a Jewish person posted a similar advertisement for their religion.  Just put a link to the site where interested parties can look it up for themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 03:55:47
subject: <b>what's really insulting...</b>
body:
is you using the term &quot;mohemmedans&quot; as if that has any historical accuracy at all. &quot;mohemmedans&quot; infers that Mohammad was/is central to the religion, which is absolutely false.<br />don't talk about historical contexts and such if you can't even get a simple fact right.<br />The religion is called Islam, and followers of the religion are Muslims, not &quot;mohemmedans.&quot;


created: 2004-03-01 05:23:47
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
if Masema is a religious character, he is John the Baptist. Mohammed was not the prophet of another person. Rand would be Jesus, and John the Baptist was the prophet of Jesus.<br />Your theory does not add up<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 10:37:10
subject: <b>In Defence of Cannoli...</b>
body:
I hope this isn&#8217;t too pedantic, but I think that we should clear a few things up about the term &#8220;Mohammedan.&#8221;  This term was used for somewhere around 1100 years in the West to describe those who call themselves Muslims, not just in polemics, but in history &#8211; including those by pro-Muslim historians (such as Gibbon, quoted in the tedious post above, who was in large part pro-Muslim simply because he was anti-Christian; not really the best of reasons, but one cannot really accuse him of trying to slander Islam).  In recent times, most particularly over the past half-century or so, the term has fallen out of common use, it is attacked on the grounds that it implies that Muslims worship Mohammed in some form (which is what I presume Cleantoe&#8217;s statement that he &#8220;was/is central to the religion, which is absolutely false&#8221; is supposed to mean).  This is simply not true.<br /><br />The reason that this misconception has arisen is, I suspect, by the parallel formation of &#8220;Christian&#8221;; people infer that if a &#8220;Christian&#8221; is one who worships Christ, then a &#8220;Mohammedan&#8221; must be one who worships Mohammed.  This is a false analogy.  The form is actually one which refers to the founder of a system &#8211; Christianity was founded by Christ; it is only coincidence (linguistically speaking, that is, not theologically) that He is also the object of worship.  Far better parallels exist: no one would be so foolish as to suggest that calling someone a &#8220;Lutheran&#8221; implies that he worships Martin Luther; likewise, many of the early Christian heresies are named after their founders &#8211; the Arians did not worship Arius, nor did the Nestorians (some of whom are still around) worship Nestorius.  And the use of these terms by the Church Fathers was not intended imply that they did, or misrepresent them; it was just a way of identifying a group based on its founder.  Now one might object that Islam was founded by Allah, and Mohammed was just his instrument, but I think that we have to put theology aside on this one, and at least admit that Mohammed was the earthly founder of the religion.  In that regard, I don&#8217;t think that anyone can really that the term &#8220;Mohammedan&#8221; is insulting, if it is properly understood.<br /><br />Now, I personally do not believe that we should continue to use the term &#8220;Mohammedan&#8221;, simply because it seems far more humane and charitable, and, frankly, helps us avoid pointless arguments, if we just agree to refer to any given sect by the name its adherents prefer.  I am not a Muslim, and therefore I feel that it is only proper for those who are to decide what they should be called, and I&#8217;m sure they would feel the same way about other faiths.  However, I feel that, once we understand the proper meaning of words, we can stop seeing insults where none were intended, and perhaps avoid making implications that someone is prejudiced simply because he used a somewhat old-fashioned term that was probably in his historical sources anyway.  <br /><br />Anyway, sorry if I sound a little preachy, or long-winded, or both <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />   And I do realise that this is meant to be an area to post responses to the theory, not clarification of religious terminology, but I felt that it might be a good thing to do anyway, to avoid any resentment that might develop between certain parties.  I hope that this has helped clear some things up, and that I didn&#8217;t offend anyone in the process.<br />


created: 2004-03-01 11:45:37
subject: <b>neither John, Mohammed, nor Jim Jones</b>
body:
is it generally believed that Rand is Jesus? if so, i think that's a pretty poor reading of the character and of the series overall. it's pretty safe to assume that RJ isn't writing an allegory, and to identify a character as being representative of one particular real world figure begins to lead toward allegory. <br /><br />having said that, i don't think that Masema is supposed to be mohammed or john the baptist (i'm sorry, i really don't buy the &quot;it has to be john the baptist because rand is jesus&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. i feel he represents the archetypal prophet gone awry. some old testament prophets play similar roles (though less violent ones) within the biblical narrative, and he even resembles some villainous celtic legends. one could even read him as Jim Jones with a less suicidal bent. Bin Laden is another possibility. the similarities between historical figures are endless. <br /><br />masema's inclusion in the story has always struck me as a little odd. while i appreciate his role as the misled prophet, i hesitate to even begin to anticipate where RJ is taking his story line. either way, radicals of every creed are getting a bad image. <br /><br />all of that to say, it's NOT Mohammed or JtB.


created: 2004-03-01 12:12:17
subject:
<b>What about Jesus Jones? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Mmmm.. cult figure. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Aaanyway, I think people are taking this far too seriously. Jordan picks a little influence from numerous sources for his characters. Rand is King Arthur, Jesus, and the Fisher King all in one. He isn't any one of them, and no analogies can be made to a single one. <br /><br />Masema is likely the same. There are many points against him being Muhammad and many points against him being John the Baptist too, being percieved as evil is one of them. Actually, Masema hasn't quite proved himself to be evil yet, just absolutely bonkers. A cynic might argue that this fits with most religious characters of the past. Oliver Cromwell, Saint Dominic, various Popes....<br /><br />Nevertheless, I think that Masema has a little of both in him. Neither totally one nor totally the other. Him being 'evil' doesnt really matter because it is quite obvious that he isn't either of them. Just as it is quite obvious that all other characters based on mythology/religion in WoT are not the characters they are analogous to.<br /><br />On Rand being analogous to Jesus in some ways, it's perfectly true. Rand is the 'Second Coming'. Twice dawns the day. Rand the Shepherd. Breaking the Seven Seals. There are quite a list of similarities listed on the rasfwrj-WoT FAQ (Available through the links section). The important things to remember are:<br /><br />A) There are a number of sources, not just Jesus.<br /><br />B)This story is fiction and as such bears no resemblence to fact or whatever you may believe.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 12:16:30
subject: <b>as long as we all agree that it's several sources</b>
body:
if Rand is related too closely to one source, it effects the reading of his character to (imo) the detriment of the story. though RJ admits that rand is the messianic figure, there is more than one in world mythology.


created: 2004-03-01 12:33:38
subject: <b>I think you take it too seriously</b>
body:
Most of RJs characters are based on characters known from mythology/history. While it seems very likely that he got the basic idea about Masema from Mohammad, I don't think you should read too much into it.<br />There are similarities, but there are also huge differencies.<br />I definately not think you can draw any conclusions from it, apart from what already is in the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 12:37:01
subject: <b>Hey-sus...you gotta be kidding.</b>
body:
Masema is the Lizard King!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />It isn't insanity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> that Perrin smells...it's patchouli.<br /><br /><br />JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 12:50:35
subject: <b>AKU SOKU ZAN</b>
body:
OMAE WO KOROSU!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 13:23:09
subject: <b>I'll just stick to the theory</b>
body:
and not get into the whole theology debate.<br /><br />I think you've done a good job drawing the parallels that you sought to make, and give you a thumbs up.<br /><br />Too many people are disagreeing on philosophical grounds and not judging the theory on its own merit, with the information she had to draw on. Who can tell for certain how accurate any written history actually is. I don't believe the author intended any slander or to demean the Islam faith, she just made a comparison, and IMO, made her point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 13:49:03
subject:
<b>I could call them musselmen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I just like the sound of the word &quot;mohammedan.&quot; It has a better ring to it, whereas Moslem, Muslim, or whatever has a silibant which gives it a villainous sound.  But I appreciate the defense.  But the point about worshiping some one because your religion is named after him is a bit odd. Catholics don't worship anyone named Cathol, Jews don't worship Judah, Mormons don't worship Moroni, and a good way to start an argument among &quot;Christians&quot; (since people who call themselves that are usually Protestant) is to ask whether or not Christ was/is God.  But of the various Protestant denominations, as cparrott said, Lutherans and Calvinists, and Arians, Nestorians, Donatists, Montanists, Manicheans, Zoroastrians, et al. never worshiped their namesakes.<br /><br />We should hunt down the Buddists, Confucianists, and satanists for starting that trend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-01 14:28:10
subject: <b>Ridiculous</b>
body:
Back to the original theory, I would have to agree with one of the earlier posts that comparisons between Mohammed and Masema are purely superficial, that is if any genuine comparisons can be drawn, which is quite doubtful.<br /><br />Comparing the central figure of one of the world's most prominent religions and a lunatic with nearly incoherent policies who leads a bunch of criminals, thugs, and bandits seems not only ignorant but insulting to anyone who is a Muslim. <br /><br />There is nothing similar in the revelations they experienced, unless you're going to draw up another theory comparing the angel Gabriel to the battle in the sky at Falme.  There is nothing remotely religious about the latter. <br /><br />Cleantoe and Cannoli pretty much had it with their first posts.  I just thought it was time to take note of how easy it is for us to make superficial and ridiculous comparisons, even insulting ones, as long as they are about another culture.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-01 20:44:57
subject: <b>One thumb up. Kind of.</b>
body:
I'd have to agree with Moridin_2000, Light in the Night and ursidae that there are most likely numerous historical references for all the major characters, including Masema.  I'd agree that RJ likely considered the accounts of how Mohammed generated a following among desert nomads in Arabia when writing about Masema's actions on Almoth Plain and in Ghealdan  That, however, seems to be where the similarities end.  Massed, forced marriages, confiscating property and encouraging people to &quot;break all bonds&quot; doesn't seem to fit in with the Mohammed narrative.<br /><br />As for the rest, you'd think we were discussing highly personal, deeply held and profound beliefs the way everyone's reacting.  Oh wait!  I forgot we ARE talking about WoT... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-02 04:05:39
subject: <b>I am a MUSLIM...</b>
body:
The thought of calling myself a &quot;Mohammedan&quot; is somewhat insulting.  You dont call Jewish people &quot;Isaacians&quot; or &quot;Mosesians&quot; do you?  Or do you call Christians &quot;Jesusians&quot;?  The word Christos, I believe, is actually Greek or Latin (I cant exactly remember), and from there you get the westernized word &quot;Christian&quot;. The arabic word &quot;Muslim&quot; means one who submits, and the word &quot;Islam&quot; means submission. <br /><br />As for the theory, I like the idea of Masema being John the Baptist, but I also have noticed that RJ uses religion to find small rules incorporated into the story line, and sometimes he changes things.  So the thought of RJ basing Masema off of my Prophet is interesting, w/ some obvious differences in character.  The Aiel rule of keeping 1/5th of the plunder is acutally an Islamic Rule of Law that any booty collected in war, 1/5th goes to the govt.  Hence, perhaps this theory has some merit to it. No way to know but by asking RJ himself.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lit from a blessed Tree - An Olive, neither of the East nor of the West,<br />Whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched  it; <br />Light upon Light!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-02 21:56:42
subject: <b>right on</b>
body:
I'm muslim too, and calling me a mohammeden is insulting, no matter how you justify or put a spin on it.<br /><br />but responding to the last post, the aiel are obviously slightly based on arab/central asian culture, especially considering there were tribes around there where women held lots of power.<br /><br />i'd say that the aiel themselves are loosely based on arab and islamic culture, but islamic culture does not mean Mohammad (pbuh).


created: 2004-03-02 22:54:43
subject: <b>Exactly</b>
body:
Yea, i've noticed that about the Aiel also.  The &quot;multiple&quot; wives thingy, the 1/5th of war booty, the desert landscape, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lit from a blessed Tree - An Olive, neither of the East nor of the West,<br />Whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched  it; <br />Light upon Light!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 03:09:10
subject: <b>Don't know enough about Muhammad</b>
body:
And I'm not really interested to read everything of Blanco's post. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, there are a few similarities you point out. <br />But I think it's mostly rather coincidence and not that RJ was specifically inspired by Muhammad. <br /><br />The similarities don't seem to be in the characters of both men but what they do in general, e.g. gather followers or fighting armies. <br />Certainly you can draw such parallels to many other (religious) leaders, too.<br /><br />Therefore it had been interesting if they are similar in characters and if you had compared it. <br /><br />Masema for example is an extreme ascetic, quite mad, acts brutally against people who have different opinions and doesn't like women (at least channelers) really, etc. <br />What was Muhammad's character in comparison ?<br /><br />As said, I don't know it since I never was very interested in Muhammad.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-03-03 10:04:38
subject: <b>2 cents</b>
body:
Aiel are loosely based on Arabian/Asian culture?!?!?  Hogwash!  Aiel are based on Fremen... case closed <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />The multiple wives thing is just for the purpose of procreation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Also, I'm going to have to call this theory weak, but plausible.  I think the primary similarity between Masema and Muhammed is that they are both referred to as Prophets, with a capital P.  Other than that, similarities are coincidental at best.  Think about it...  someone who is preaching a message that is widely different than the current paradigm is going to be forced to roam the country side until he finds enough people that his message resonates with to create a following to legitimize his teachings.  That's the stereotypical method for spreading new teachings. If Masema just popped into somewhere and started screaming about the Dragon Reborn and people said &quot;Oh...right..  the Dragon is reborn.  Sure, I'll follow you.&quot; we'd all throw a tantrum because that wouldn't be very realistic.  RJ is just following the standard template for how someone spreads new teachings that some people would be offended by.  Masema and Muhammed could both be considered 'radical' thinkers, but I don't think this is a significant enough similarity to conclude that their live's will share any substantial parallels.<br /><br />Incidentally, cparrott, I thought you response 'In Defense of Cannoli' was tactful and to the point.  I think so often we have hot button issues where any mistep is perceived as an intended insult.  The key to harmony is to think from the other guy's point of view and realize that not everyone has the same basic set of assumptions about everything.  I think most here on the WoT board are pretty good at that, which is what keeps me coming back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 10:06:42
subject: <b>A few flaws in Cannoli's last post...</b>
body:
although they're not relevant to the theory discussed, I still feel like pointing them out.<br />Firstly, this thing about &quot;people who call themselves Christians are usually Protestants&quot; - Only in America. Everywhere else, Catholics talk of themselves as being Christians, and only use &quot;Catholic&quot; when making the distinction with other kinds of Christians. Since Catholics are relatively rare in America, they feel the need to clarify their religion further all the time, so they just say &quot;Catholic&quot;. Perhaps it's the same in the Protestant countries of Europe (Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Switzerland I guess). <br />Secondly, the Buddhists nor the Confucianists are valid examples of religious groups who worship the person after who their religion was named. The point of Buddhism (and the reason why some people say it's not a real religion as such) is that they don't worship *anyone*. Buddha was the one who showed them the truth, their spiritual guide if you will, but NOT their god. And I don't think even the Confucianists would claim Confucius was anything more than a very wise human being who set out a number of ethical guidelines to live by.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 11:04:09
subject: <b>what a superficial theory</b>
body:
i couldn't really see any resemblance between Muhammad and Masema, beyond both names starting with M, and both calling themselves Prophet. <br /><br />As a muslim, i don't want to be labelled a Mohammadan, as this is too close to old western rhetoric about muslims worshipping an evil trinity of muhammad, apollo and satan (!!) so please be accurate and call us muslims. <br /><br /><br />As for the Aiel, i thought RJ had said himself that they were based on arab tribes but changed by making them blonde haired and blue eyed for a twist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Seek knowledge from wherever you can, even unto China&quot;. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 16:21:59
subject: <b>So if Masema resembles John the Baptist...</b>
body:
..will Berelain do a strip-tease and demand his head on a platter? Or maybe Faile, dancing the sa'sara...


created: 2004-03-03 16:40:49
subject: <b>Twofold resemblance</b>
body:
Masema does appear to have a superficial resemblance to Mohammad. Personally, Masema is more like any of the insane false Messiahs or Prophets that popped up in Judaea (a province of the Roman Empire=Israel) constantly around the time of Jesus. The tendency of the Judaeans to create madmen claiming to be the Messiah made the Herodian kings and the Roman procurators nervous and high-strung. Actually, this fear of religious madmen helped make Jesus' execution that much more likely. This is what happened to the Ghealdanin monarchy, except the kings and queens got killed or overthrown. If it wasn't for the Romans, the Herodian kings would be killed or overthrown by the zealots.<br /><br />What about Rand? Doesn't he resemble Mohammad as well? He received revelations (the Rhuidean memories, the Karaethon Cycle, the voice of the Creator--take your pick). He gathered desert nomads, led them out of the desert to the wetlands. These desert nomads shook the world with battle. Oh wait, Paul Muad'dib did that too in Dune. The only differences are that Rand lived long enough to lead the Aiel out of the desert, while Mohammad died before the Muslims exploded out of Arabia, and that the Aiel will be mostly destroyed in Tarmon Gai'don (as prophesied) instead of founding a vast empire, as the Ansar (Muslim warriors) did under the Caliphates.<br /><br />Furthermore, no offense intended to anyone at all, in our modern society, a religious visionary similar to Jesus or Mohammad would be considered insane. In fact, if Jesus was here now, the Catholic Church would consider him a heretic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 22:45:02
subject: <b>In the interest of KILLING this discussion...</b>
body:
I am first of all going to desist from speaking up in defense of MY religion, and recommend a much better fantasy Mohammed.  Thomas Harlan's &quot;Oath of Empire&quot; series takes place in an alternate reality just like our world in the seventh century, only with magic.  One of the main characters is Mohammed himself, and if the author's portrayal of Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, and the Byzantine Emperor, Heraclius, is any indication, then the characterization is dead on.  It is a great historical and military fantasy series with good action/adventure too.  Mohammed in that series is nothing like Maseema, and as I implied before, the historical figures with whom I am more familiar are very accurate, so I'll trust his handling of Mohamed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 23:55:14
subject: <b>Theory works for me as far as it goes, but try not to read too much into it.</b>
body:
Personally, I can buy the theory as originally stated.  Critical observation for those involved in the John/Mohammed debate: which of them, like Masema, spread their message with the sword?<br /><br />I also have a sincere question for the theologian PhD (in fact, two; I thought it was a DD?)  Could I have some more info on the pagans to whom you referred?  I was under the impression that by the seventh century virtually all of the Sinai was monotheistic, either Jewish or Christian (bearing in mind that polytheistic religions tend to have no problem with other faiths, but monotheistic ones like Christianity and Judaism would and do have real theological problems with Islam.)<br /><br />Now, despite the fact I like the theory (noteworthy in itself since it had never occurred to me) we have to bear in mind that regardless of the source/archetype for given characters, they DO NOT conform 100% to said sources.  I don't think Lan is going to try stealing Egwene away from Rand (he's a little late if he is,) I don't think Gawyn is going to be killed by him (though it would be a fun practice fight to watch,) and it's hard to imagine anything between Nynaeve and Thom.  Historical and legendary figures inspire many of the WoT characters, but the two don't necessarily behave in the same ways, and that's part of the fun.<br /><br />And Mohammed, like Masema, was the prophet of someone else, hence the offensiveness of the term &quot;Mohammedan.&quot;  It probably doesn't help that this was, I believe, the term used by Crusaders.  At the end of the day, while it seems an overreaction to me, I'm an outsider, and it's not too much to ask that adherents of a particular belief get to pick their own designation (for those unaware but curious, &quot;Christ&quot; is from &quot;Christos&quot; which is merely the Greek (language of the literate Roman world and the New Testament) version of &quot;Messiah&quot; a Hebrew word meaning annointed, like the kings of Israel and at least a few prophets of which we know.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-23 00:34:39
subject: <b>reading thru the BB</b>
body:
i noticed most of the comments were over religion and the like.. NOT THE theory. The theory was more of a statment saying that &quot;I believe that this character was based of this actually person so way some how and this is the evidence to back it up.&quot; Not this character is this real person just loosly based on them... I may be wrong if so i apologize...then again the odds of anyone of you actually meeting me very slim so i won't actually making any apologies...<br /><br />overal i thought the theory was good and thought provoking which is all i look for not the possiblity that it may be true but that it is an interesting idea that makes you think...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 13:27:13
subject: <b>Cool- I am excited to read this</b>
body:
However, I need to make one note.<br /><br />I always thought that the Fade did not have competing orders.  I thought the whole zig-zag thing was due to a power struggle between Fain and the Fade.  Fain something like, 'i had to wake back  up to see the Fade in control.'  I think this is because the Mordeth presence was slowing growing stronger, but then retreating back again when he slept.  It seemed to take a long time for Fain to totally merged with Mordeth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 13:42:17
subject: <b>Great start Light.</b>
body:
Did Fain have the daggar again at this point?  I thought that as Matrimony pointed out that the recovery of the daggar allowed Mordeth to gain control and grow in power.<br /><br />Having fun already!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:22:42
subject: <b>I've wondered about this, too...</b>
body:
But only sporadically... and I never got as far as your two-for-the-price-of-one plot... I'll Read on.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:39:24
subject: <b>Before I continue on into the theory's next parts</b>
body:
I'm thinking that the Dark was probably attracted to the dagger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 15:15:14
subject: <b>about Fain the dagger and competing orders...</b>
body:
Yes, Fain has the dagger at the point. It was taken from Mat when he broke out at Fal Dara.<br /><br />Yes they Fade and Fain have competing orders. The zig-zag resulted from these orders. In a POV from Fain he thinks this. He (Fain) was at his weakest in the mornings (we don't really know why) and at these time the Fade took charge and made them head towards the Blight. Later, Fain would gain his strength and take back the lead and make them head south. They zig-zagged like this until Fain became powerful enough to kill the Fade, and then they only traveled south.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:48:58
subject: <b>A thumb up.</b>
body:
A whole new Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 20:40:52
subject: <b>Fain broke out on his own?</b>
body:
Maybe with the dagger so near he was powerfull enough to break out on his own and then joined up with the Fade that had the orn of Valere.


created: 2004-03-10 01:40:45
subject: <b>RE: Rurouni_Kenshin</b>
body:
It's a pretty accepted fact that someone helped free Fain. He just wasn't that powerful yet. He spent weeks in that cell and the best he had managed to do was affect the people around him. By this I mean that Egwene noticed the guards turning darker in moods, and more sour tempered. But that was about it as far as his powers went, until he was free and rejoined with the dagger. <br /><br />There is even a POV by him where he says that &quot;he was now whole again with the dagger in his possession, it was a part of him.&quot; (Not a direct quote, but close enough).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 09:57:57
subject: <b>I was pretty sure it was two guards that freed Fain *NM*</b>
body:
the guards later turned up hanging skinned in an oaktree...am I wrong?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You were just taking a basic personality test, and you chose to matched against men. After some serious number crunching, the personality test determined that you are most like Logain.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 11:32:36
subject: <b>a few comments.</b>
body:
I'll try to keep my comment relative to the specific theory in question and not jump ahead to what's covered in other theories (but I know that I will anyway).<br /><br />I have long been puzzled by Fain's escape.<br /><br />1. Why were Egwene and Mat not killed. The gaurds outside were ripped to pieces, but Egwene and Mat were hit over the head.<br />You do a decent job (in the following theories) of showing a motivation as to why they were left alive, but I'd like to see it fleshed out a bit - especially in Egwene's case.<br /><br />2. How did Moiraine and Siuan know that the horn would head south? This is evident from Ingtar's comments and the order to give Rand the banner south of the river Erinin.<br />This is not addressed by this theory.<br /><br />3. When Moiraine is at Vandene and Adeleas's house, she is researching about the Watchers of the Waves and Toman Head. How did she know to do this? Rand wiped the Toman Head comment by Fain clean before Moiraine got there. IIRC there was a reference to 'the watchers' in the writing on the wall that Verin looks at - was this the clue?<br /><br />4. Someone mentioned Alvairin as a possible suspect for the release of Fain (on one of the other blackboard comments). I have never thought of her - that could be a whole new theory in of itself.<br /><br /><br />All in all, you present the best scenario for the escape of Fain that I've seen to date - much better that getting suspicious about Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 15:44:32
subject: <b>A couple more replies</b>
body:
To Mattias: The guards are the ones suspected of opening the dog-gate to let in the Trollocs. If you will recall, they were not on guard duty in the dungeon that night.<br /><br />To kcf: I have only supposition to go on as to why they were left alive. However, I think we can at least reason out some of it. Mesaana had to have known that Rand had ties to these two. This becomes evident when she uses Egwene as bait later, and the only way she could use her that way is knowing they were close enough that Rand would try to rescue her. The same goes for Mat. They were just in the way because they were heading to the dungeon or walked into the escape as it was taking place. If either of them had been killed, Rand would have been kept at Fal Dara for funerals instead of pursuing the Horn, dagger and Fain, which was the point of freeing him in the first place.<br /><br />I should have figured that you would bring up the heading south knowledge since I myself used it as a basis for another theory. And, as far as that goes, my other theory explains it better than this one possible could. To me, it appears logical to take the Horn north, even Anaiya thinks that is where it's going to head. So, taking that into consideration, I would say that their reason to suspect another direction would have to lie with Fain's escape. Moiraine's interrogation of Fain revealed that he hated what had been done to him at Shayol Ghul. One of the things she says about him is:<br /> &quot;The degradation of his soul almost makes me doubt he has one. There is something worse to him than a Dark Friend.&quot; and this: &quot;It is the things done to bring about those changes that Fain fears to remember; he hates his master for them as much as he fears him.&quot; She tells of his mistreatment by the Trollocs, him encountering Machin Shin, and that at one point Fain thought he was free from his master, only to find he could not give up hunting for the boys. She also says he managed to hold something back. And this is probably the encounter with Mordeth. The taking of the dagger was a puzzle to Moiraine because she knew it was from Shadar Logoth, and that under normal circumstances no Fade would have taken it. It is even one of the things she questions Vandene about. The only logical thing to conclude is that Moiraine must have figured the missing dagger was a large clue.<br /><br />The way I see it, she must have suspected that the dagger would not be going to Shayol Ghul, since its evil was used against the Shadow, coupled with the fact that Fain had been in Shadar Logoth also combined with the boys own run-in with Mordeth. By the time she meets Rand again in Falme, this suspicion she had is now a fact that she has figured out for sure, and even tells Rand about how dangerous Fain actually is at that time. The best I can say is Moiraine played her hunches very well and guessed that Fain would not be going to the Blight. (Smart girl that we know she is.)<br /><br />As to Toman Head, yes, that would have been the only clue she had from the Prophecy. Even though she says it might be fake, she obviously doesn't dismiss it as a possibility. Vandene confirms this for her.<br /><br />As for Alviarin being a suspect, I doubt it. We never see her near the dungeon, no POV that would point to her being at the DFS, nor any thought about the Horn, or dagger. In fact, she meets Fain in the White Tower when he steals the dagger back, and it appears to be the first time they've met.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 17:46:46
subject:
<b>Very nice work.....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I have only one thought to add..... even if Fain could not have orchestrated his own escape....is it possible that he only took control of the Trollocs after they had been secretly brought inot the keep?  i.e...Fain had enough power at that point to join the breakout...he was not part of the original plan?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 19:47:32
subject: <b>Why couldn't Fain just have messed up the fade's plan?</b>
body:
They could easily have rescued Fain as part of the stealing of the Horn. Perhaps they didn't want him to give information away to the good guys or maybe Ishamael wanted to &quot;distill&quot; him again to get more info on the three ta'veren. Just because Fain took over doesn't mean that he wasn't supposed to be rescued and taken with the Horn to Shayol Ghul. It could have been the plan to take him there with the Horn, but he - using his newfound abilities from SL - took over from the fade after the power struggle that resulted in the zig-zag pattern - and went his own way, messing up Ishy's plans. It's certainly simpler if it was the same group that saved Fain that took the Horn. And if it wasn't, why did they take him with them? If it was two different operations, why did Fain go with the group that had the Horn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 00:59:44
subject: <b>A little more</b>
body:
To bcondray: I think you'll agree that someone would have to have been with the Trollocs. Otherwise they probably would have killed Mat and Egwene. Someone usually has to control/drive/restrain them.<br /><br />(Quote)They could easily have rescued Fain as part of the stealing of the Horn. Perhaps they didn't want him to give information away to the good guys or maybe Ishamael wanted to &quot;distill&quot; him again to get more info on the three ta'veren. Just because Fain took over doesn't mean that he wasn't supposed to be rescued and taken with the Horn to Shayol Ghul. It could have been the plan to take him there with the Horn, but he - using his newfound abilities from SL - took over from the fade after the power struggle that resulted in the zig-zag pattern - and went his own way, messing up Ishy's plans. It's certainly simpler if it was the same group that saved Fain that took the Horn. And if it wasn't, why did they take him with them? If it was two different operations, why did Fain go with the group that had the Horn?(Quote)<br /><br />To Kalessin: Moiraine had already interrogated Fain in tEotW. She said he had held some information back, and was planning on trying again. But why do you think they would need Fain at Shayol Ghul? The Shadow already knew as much about the boys by that time as Fain did. What more little bit of information would he have that would be worth the risk of freeing him? You also seem to forget that Fain wrote a message directed to Rand saying he would meet him on Toman Head. It would be kind of stupid for the rescue party to stand around waiting for Fain to leave this note while they really planned to go to Shayol Ghul, don't you think? If you will reread what I stated, Fain found himself in a struggle for control of the group with the Fade. It took days before he was strong enough to gain full control. And, once he did, he headed for Falme just like he said he would in his message. He didn't just decide to go there on a whim. It was his planned destination from the time he left his cell, and don't think I can't make it any clearer than that. <br /><br />I believe I already stated in my theory, that &quot;Selene&quot; took advantage of a plan already in progress and freed Fain amidst the confusion associated with that. He ended up with that group as they left the castle to make it appear part of the same plot. Why doesn't that sound simple? Very little planning on her part. <br /><br />In this instance, Siuan's POV speaks loudly of something out of place. She thinks they took a huge risk to rescue Fain because she thought the Shadow felt he was important. I know better. Anyone that's read the books should too. If the Shadow was afraid Fain would give away information, they would have killed him, he was only a tool that they no longer needed. And they certainly didn't need him to carry the Horn in a chest that he couldn't even lift.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 09:58:59
subject: <b>Playing both sides</b>
body:
Remember, Ishamael was still in charge at this point, and he has no problems giving conflicting orders to different minions and changing operational priorities.  For instance, he wants Rand alive, because even if the Dragon doesn't serve the Shadow, he can be manuvered in ways acceptable to their ends.  (That little game Moridin is playing in aPoD serves to explain a lot about his character motivation).  However, when the alternative is letting him cleanse saidin, Moridin has no problem ordering Rand's death.  He probably had the whole Tomon Head thing planned (though not the outcome) and ordered Fain freed to have the Horn brought there.  He gave orders to 'Bors' to keep the Seanchan a secret, but to continue his work on the Almoth Plain, which in tDR turns out to have been the conquest of the Almoth Plain for the WC.  So who did Ishamael want to win?  The Seanchan or the Whitecloaks?  Moiraine's plan was for Rand to hand the Horn over to Sammael (or at least that's what the result of her plan would have been), so if it was as simple as letting the Shadow get their hands on the Horn, all Ba'alzamon had to do was put the Black Ajah to work expediting the journey to Illian with the Horn.  I don't think Ishamael wanted the Horn.  Hawkwing said they would come no matter who blew it, but they had to follow the Dragon, so despite all the worry in tGH, the Shadow really could not use it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 12:46:17
subject: <b>LItN..... about trollocs....</b>
body:
Ooops...I forgot that...but what if the tug of war between Fain and the Fade started when the trollocs/fade entered the keep?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 19:53:41
subject: <b>Re: Cannoli</b>
body:
I agree in principle to what you say about the importance of the Horn to the Shadow. They had ample opportuniy to take it for themselves at any time in TGH, and they never acted on it other than to remove it from the keep. Selene had many chances to take it herself, but was content to use it as a lure to Rand, and all of the boys for that matter, as per her conversations with them.<br /><br />However, I would point out that the comment by &quot;Lanfear&quot; at the end of TGH, seems to indicate her involvement with the theft: &quot;Ishamael thinks he controls events. I do.&quot; In reality, we saw her do just that throughout that book by trying to get Rand to channel, put him under her spell, and guide his steps, which she admits to doing.<br /><br />Also, Fain leaves the message indicating he is planning on going to Toman Head to Rand. It is apparent to me, at least, that he was never intended to go to Shayol Ghul. Fain was quite determined to get to Toman Head, and mentions it once or twice. So why put him in a group of Trollocs and a Fade that was headed for Shayol Ghul? <br /><br />It is also obvious that the Shadow wanted Rand alive, at least at this point in the story. Ishy himself offered to teach Rand how to use the Power, so we can see that even the Shadow knows he must be able to channel to be of use to their ends. Proclaiming himself the Dragon Reborn, I feel, is equally important. If he is to be manipulated, he must be known to the world as the DR, otherwise he won't have the same impact on events.<br /><br />One more point could be made about the Horn, too, though. It was from the recent Q &amp; A at Tor's website, and RJ said the Horn was never used in the AoL, in fact it is unknown when it was last actually used. He made it sound as though so much myth and legend surrounded it, that it is unclear if they actually knew if it even did what it was said to do. If so little was known about it, would Ishy know that the Heroes of the Horn would only follow the Dragon and his Banner? Food for thought, anyway.<br /><br />To bcondray: The struggle might have started then, but most likely at that point, Fain would just be wanting to escape, and the priorities could be worked out later. I'm sure Fain began getting stronger as soon as he was reunited with the dagger, and, IIRC, the trail did indeed start south first. Fain appeared to wake each morning somewhat dazed and weaker, and that is when the trail would head north again. As the day wore along, Fain would reassert his power, and the trail would shift accordingly. (I suspect that his dreams were being tampered with, myself. This would explain why he was confused when he woke up. Just my opinion. It could also be that having contact with the dagger was helping Mordeth assert his evil into him as well.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 22:25:44
subject: <b>LItN....</b>
body:
(I suspect that his dreams were being tampered with, myself. This would explain why he was confused when he woke up. Just my opinion. It could also be that having contact with the dagger was helping Mordeth assert his evil into him as well.)<br /><br />Could the above be the prelude to a sub-theory.... I am learning so much more about WoT...my main thing until lately(when I have been TPing more) was learning all the names of the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Kin, Windfinders, and damane..it's made it easier for me to keep track of things.... Now...I'm learning to find more clues and foreshadowing than I thought possible...no wonder it takes RJ two years to write each book.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 03:42:57
subject: <b>About Moiraine and the chain of command...</b>
body:
I think she didn't expect the horn to be brought south by the shadow. Instead, the plan was to have Ingtars company recapture it. Ingtar was under orders to bring it south afterwards, dropping Mat of to be Healed of Shadar Logoth, and letting Rand show the Horn to Illian and having him declare himself the Dragon Reborn immediately afterwards, possibly with AS support. Rand wasn't supposed to find out about the chain of command until much later, and I think Moiraine only got a clue of what really was going on with the horn and the Watchers at Vandene's. She then acted accordingly but was too late to make much of a difference.


created: 2004-03-12 04:24:34
subject: <b>Re: smallcatherine</b>
body:
Excellent point! I had heard this somewhere once before and completely forgot about it. It explains the reason very nicely, and without having to point a suspicious finger at Moiraine. <br /><br />Very good!<br /><br />To bcondray: Well, I don't know if there's enough for a theory there or not, but, yes, subtle clues like that early morning confusion certainly should lead us to suspect something is going on. It is exactly the kind of things that RJ puts in his story to make us wonder about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 06:39:39
subject: <b>Why fain is weaker in the morning</b>
body:
maybe because both mashadar and mordeth's power seem to be linked to the night while they are bound in SL and their power wanes during the day. so, while fain was still assimilating mordeth he was weaker during the day. just something to add here, overall a great theory <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 11:34:14
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
One thing to keep in mind is that the dark powers didn't know about Fain merging with Mordeth.  From their perspective he was a darkfriend who had been given some special power to track the 3 tavern, and eventhough they know rand is the dragon reborn, having a guy that can point to rand at any given moment would be an asset.   It's possible that they freed fain, but it's also posible that they were there to kill him. But since it was night he was not without power, that is where the struggle probably started with the fade.  As to why egwane and mat were left alive--eveyone likes matt, fain seems to be no exception <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-30 01:05:23
subject: <b>Fellow Followers of Narg the Great!!!!!</b>
body:
all of this thinking mumbo-jumbo is demeaning, we should all get back to the REAl purpose in life, which if of course to WORSHIP THE ALL POWERFUL NARG, FOR HE IS THE CREATOR AND THE DARK ONE MADE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />ok, i'm done now<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-08 15:41:46
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
Maybe somebody's already said this, but why would ISHY want Rand to go to Toman Head?  Compare the failed invasion at Falme with Rand's vision of his alternate lives in the Portal Stone.  One vision showed Rand as Queen's Guard's guy fighting the Seanchan.  He loses.  Another shows the Seanchan conquering the earth, then the Trolloc Wars Part 2 coming south and whacking them all.  Game over.  It strikes me that Ishy would rather let the Seanchan conquer everthing while Rand is putzing around in Illian than let him get to Falme, beat the Seanchan and everything, and then let himself get proclaimed TDR?  I've always thought that Moiraine's &quot;plan&quot; to get Rand proclaimed in Illian is really stupid and wouldn't work at all, especially with Sammy in Illian.  Therefore, all the Toman Head stuff came from Fain alone, not Ishy.  Just some thoughts.


created: 2004-10-14 00:06:30
subject: <b>Re: AgingComputer</b>
body:
I didn't say Ishy wanted Rand to go to Falme. I implied that he wanted the Horn taken north to Shayol Ghul. (The orders the Fade obviously had.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-12 16:38:27
subject: <b>This is definately the longest theory... Definately</b>
body:
You are one crazy cupcake(in fear of using words that are not allowed)! It's going to take me about three days to read this whole thing... (It's going to be fun though)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:22:28
subject: <b>YES!!</b>
body:
The bits with Rand I've always known - I've never been a huge fan of the lanfear-is-that-beautiful school...<br /><br />As to Mat and Perrin... ok, let's say she wasn't just messing with them, to make sure that their taverenness wouldn't interfere with her plans for Rand... why did she stop?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 15:06:58
subject: <b>hmmmm...where u going with this one i wonder?</b>
body:
Are you thinking Lanfear told them to release Fain?<br /><br />On a side note.... I like the fact Mat's luck foiled Lanfear's attempt to compel him. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:52:30
subject: <b>Kronik</b>
body:
He said in one of the 5 that Mesaana was out before Lanfear landed on the scene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 22:39:55
subject: <b>more than just the void</b>
body:
Sounds good, but one thing to add.  I think that part of the reason Rand was able to fight off Selene's inducements in front of the excavation was not just that he held the void and that the void helped, but that he was standing in front of the greatest sa'angreal ever created.  Saidin was filling his mind so much, Selene didn't have a chance.  Obviously, it's connected to the void, but the void alone wasn't responsible.  Had she tried to compulse him while he stood in front of the Eye of the World, she might have had a similar failure.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 01:49:13
subject: <b>Re: Comet Sedai</b>
body:
I looked very closely at that sequence when I was doing research for this. It kept saying that &quot;Saidin sang to him, it called him, etc.&quot; It left me feeling unsure of whether or not he actually embraced the Source or not. In fact, I think Rand's POV said he fought it off, IIRC.<br /><br />At any rate, I wasn't 100% sure, and I felt like it was an issue that wasn't worth having people vote no because they disagreed on that point. <br /><br />Even if it was only the void in that instance, it was a powerful moment, and her efforts would have been wasted. I agree on that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 04:05:44
subject: <b>Excellent!</b>
body:
Really good, I never picked up on these tidbits! Yet it seems so obvious now...another point, in the Lanfear/Mat meeting, why did Lanfear/Selene mention &quot;he&quot; (Ishamael) at all? Ta'veren perhaps? That is perhaps why she said too much? Just a thought, but seems cool that not even uber-Forsaken are immune to the ta'veren effect...


created: 2004-03-10 12:00:49
subject: <b>comments:</b>
body:
About Selene compulsion Rand:<br /><br />I'm not convinced. Remember what it was like to be a young man of 19 or so? With the level of repression of the Two Rivers, it might be more appropriate to use a 16 year old male. Rand is in the presence of the most beautiful woman he has ever seen - the fact that images of her naked or kissing her come unbidden, well that sounds pretty typical of the adolescent male mind to me (yes ladies, we are all pigs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />). <br /><br />Selene touching Rand often sounds a bit like she's training an uneasy animal. In fact, RJ describes this from Perrin's POV in the way Berelain deals with him.<br /><br />I guess that in my several re-reads, I have never thought of Selene compulsing Rand. The only evidence of channeling is her healing him. I've always interpreted Rand's reactions as the typical reactions of a boy/young man in the presence of an extremely attractive female. Hormones are a b!thch. However, I will admit that compulsion is a possibility. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 15:57:11
subject: <b>Re: kcf</b>
body:
I thought the use of compulsion was one of the most obvious things about this whole set of theories. I only put in sections that I thought were blatant, but I would suggest to everyone that a critical look in a reread will make it apparent. (I especially thought the part where he was thinking to himself about how she would touch his arm and look him in the eyes, and his resolve would melt away about leaving, when he had firmly decided to go earlier, was quite revealing.)<br /><br />As I have stated in other posts, I do believe that one of the reasons she posed as Selene was at least in part because of the effect her looks would have. This combined with the compulsion was just about too much for Rand to overcome.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 18:07:17
subject: <b>Again...great stuff.</b>
body:
I agree that Lanfear/Selene was doing the old compulsion thingy.....<br /><br />And as Danae pointed out..that's why she is seen as so other worldly gorgeous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 23:20:58
subject: <b>Compulsion? Perhaps, but not full blown.</b>
body:
I always thought that it wa quite obvious that Lanfear/Selene was using the OP on Rand in some way to make him more attracted to her and more tractable. However, I doubt that it was strong compulsion. Such would likely have been more difficult for RAnd to go against and to some extent Lanfear wants to &quot;Lews Therin&quot; to come to her of his own accord. Certainly after the whole Selene bit she gives up on the compulsion and even while she's using it it seems more to make him more susceptible to suggestion then come close to <i>making</i> him do anything. So, while I agree that the OP (and probably Compulsion) was used, it certainly wasn't really strong compulsion.<br /><br />Also, remember that in Sammael's PoV in LoC he mentions (internally of course) that Graendal's &quot;tricks&quot; won't work on him while he's holding the Power. So, I think that that would explain why Rans was less susceptible while holding the void. Also, that could explain why Alanna couldn't compulse him with the warder bond in LoC.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 17:24:42
subject: <b>Compulsion</b>
body:
I'm not convinced compulsion was used on Rand, though it's a strong possibility.  I think Lanfear is trying to get by without it, thinking her power-enhanced beauty should be more than enough.  Rand is a special case for her.  She's still upset that Lews Therin rejected her, and the only way she can feel better about it is if Rand chooses her of his own free will.<br /><br />Rand didn't feel anything to indicate a woman channeling on him, he didn't feel a tingle or shiver.  He didn't feel anything when she used Healing on him either, but still with all those examples you would expect him to shiver at least once.<br /><br />The way the forsaken touched people and looked into their eyes when using compulsion isn't much of a clue, it's a common gesture when trying to persuade someone.  I think Lanfear would have done that whether she chose to use the power or not.<br /><br />Anyhow, you're probably right about the use of light compulsion, but I don't think it's as certain as you suggest.


created: 2004-03-15 18:58:53
subject: <b>I'm back....</b>
body:
....Sorry, but I wasn't able to create the time.  You've surprised me with some of your conclusions in part 2.  I'm off to read the rest before I comment.<br /><br />Alot of work went into this, good work!<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 21:49:19
subject: <b>Re: Volbard:</b>
body:
&quot;Rand offered his hand to help her mount; Hurin scrambled down to hold her stirrup. &quot;Whatever that thing was I killed - a grolm? - there might be more of them around.&quot; Her hand was firm - there was surprising strength in her grip - and her skin was.... Silk? Something softer, smoother. Rand shivered.&quot;<br /><br />Rand shivered. This is right after their initial meeting.<br /><br />&quot;The ointment felt cold at first, then seemed to melt away warmly into his flesh. And it worked as well as Nynaeve's ointments sometimes did. He stared in amazement as the redness faded and the swelling went down under her stroking fingers.<br /><br />This example is more subtle because you have to think about it. People from the AoL used Healing weaves, not salves and ointments. It also takes years of training for a Wisdom to find the right herbs to blend that treat various wounds. The coldness he feels here is almost definitely her channeling. Where would she learn or acquire this salve if she was recently freed from the seals? <br /><br />&quot;One more day, he thought drowsily. Just one more, and then we go. If no one comes tomorrow, Ingtar or Darkfriends one, I'll take Selene to Cairhien.<br />He had told himself that before. Every day they had been there on the mountainside, watching the place where Hurin said the trail had been, in that other world - where Selene said the Darkfriends would surely appear in this world - he told himself it was time to leave. And Selene talked of the Horn of Valere, and touched his arm, and looked into his eyes, and before he knew it he had agreed to yet another day before they went on.<br />He shrugged against the chill of the wind, thinking of Selene touching his arm and looking into his eyes.<br /><br />This is blatant. I don't understand how you cannot see this for what it is. According to Rahvin: &quot;Repeated use of compulsion made obedience easier even when it was not in use,&quot; <br /><br />&quot;The dagger! All you seem to care about is that dagger. I told you to be rid of it. The Horn of Valere, Rand.&quot;<br />&quot;No.&quot;<br />She came to him, a sway in her walk that made him feel as if he had something caught in his throat. &quot;All I want is to see it in the light of day. I won't even touch it. You hold it. It would be something for me to remember, you holding the Horn of Valere in your hands.&quot; She took his hands as she said it; her touch made his skin tingle and his mouth go dry.<br /><br />Her touch made his skin tingle and mouth go dry. <br /><br />You have to look at Rand's reactions and take into account how easily he is being swayed. This is that stubborn Two Rivers blood we are talking about, that once they make up their minds about something they won't budge. RJ pounded this at us in those early books. If you didn't catch that, I don't know how you missed it. Selene used compulsion on Rand, and it should be obvious to the most casual reader.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-04 21:30:29
subject: <b>What is your point</b>
body:
Yes, I know that Selene was a deceptive woman that wanted to entice him toward the shaddow.  But basically all that I got from what you said in this theory is what I already know about her Character and her intetions.  What is your argument, because I don't see one.


created: 2004-04-08 14:05:10
subject: <b>Re: VanDan</b>
body:
The gist of this theory was that Selene used compulsion on Rand, and possibly tried it on Perrin as well.<br /><br />Most people missed this, thinking it was just the fact that she was so beautiful that had Rand all flustered.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 15:47:23
subject: <b>She even said it</b>
body:
It is hard to deny that she was trying compultion on Rand and Perrin when she specificly tells matt &quot;I won't compel you.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-17 13:34:21
subject: <b>not convinced</b>
body:
perhaps she tried compulsion on Mat, but not Perrin or Rand.  Perrin was in the World of Dreams, so she could create those situations much like Mog did to Egwene with the Galad/Gawayn fantasies.  <br /><br />With Rand she wants him back more than anything else.  I think if she had to chose between being with him and serving the shadow, she'd chose Rand.  If she compeled him he wouldn't be him anymore, he'd be a puppet wearing Rand's face.  That's not what she wanted.  <br /><br />I could see compelling Mat, cause that's about the only sure fire way to get him to do anything.  But i don't really think she was


created: 2004-03-09 14:22:32
subject: <b>Every feeling revolts!!!</b>
body:
But, since it's alos so damned plausible, I'll think about this long and hard.<br /><br />(Why was the Taimandred theory so obvious? It never was, to me)<br /><br />Ok, question: why Lanfear? Why didn't Mesaana take on any other beautiful female's form and make do with that? What difference would it make if a few people thought that Lanfy was back if she wasn';t yet, but would be, anyway?<br />And why the excessive seductioning?<br /><br />Also, Mesaana/Lanfear might have been in a position to know that it was Mat who blew the Horn. She <i>was</i> in Falme, after all... just nit-picking.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:04:41
subject: <b>Great reasoning</b>
body:
I am reading the 5 in order, but this is my first comment.<br /><br />The idea of Selene=Mesaana is totally new for me, but I believe it entirely. You`ve proved the point<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:05:20
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
Well done!!! A light started going off in my head (flickering at first) when you began talking about Mesanna's involvement.<br /><br />I love it because it makes alot of sense and I've always wondered why we haven't gotten any word on her. This makes her out to be a pretty interesting character now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:54:39
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
need is say more? you have me totally convinced of lanfear=messanna.... but the question is why would messanna go through all that trouble? perhaps its later in the theory...... great job though, that totally blew me away. though the thought never crossed my mind, i totally believe the thoery (as much as i've read so far at least)... its so logical.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Are you seduced?<br /><br />Stop bothering my flatworm!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 18:00:08
subject: <b>Nice Theory!</b>
body:
So far the three I've read have been good. Although I must say for this third one as soon as I read &quot;Selene's True Identity&quot; Mesaana as Selene just jumped out at me. Don't know why, but in truth you're right and it makes more sense than Lanfear. Well to me at least. I never would have thought that the same person was posing as Else though. Really good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 18:06:51
subject: <b>Don't buy it....</b>
body:
Mesaana's part in the plot was just to lure the girls to Tear, I don't think Lanfear even wanted Rand in Tear.  Mesaana executed her part of the trap by dumping the fake Black Ajah's leavings on the three girls as an inducement to go to Tear.<br /><br />I think there were two plans against Rand in TDR:  Bel'al and Mesaana planned to use bait to lure him in and Ishmael was trying to locate him to kill him.  The bait turned out to be irrelevant (a sting to Mesaana's pride)


created: 2004-03-09 19:34:57
subject: <b>So far I only disagree with one point in this great theory</b>
body:
I don't buy that Serelene wasn't Lanfear. Too many little things point to it being really Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 23:40:27
subject: <b>Big problem</b>
body:
I have one big objection so far, Light.<br /><br />In TSR, we saw Lanfear posing as the big fat peddler.  At one point, Lanfear tried to sell Mat Isendre.  Mat refused.<br /><br />Lanfear then said something to the extent of, 'Very few people have denied me once, but you have denied me twice.'  Something like.  I don't have my books to look up this quote.<br /><br />Basically, I always interpreted that quote to mean that Mat had refused Lanfear when she came to him in the White Tower and tempted him with glory.  The reason I thought Lanfear left the boys alone is because she realized how strong minded they were and that compulsion wouldn't work.<br /><br />So, I do not see this whole Selene/Mesanna thing eye to eye.<br />It does make sense, since Mesanna was in the tower, but there are certain edges about it that don't make sense to me.  (such as the paraphrased quote I just gave)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 00:25:01
subject: <b>Well, I voted yes, but I have a few problems with it</b>
body:
For one, the main arguments you use against Lanfear wanting Be'lal to possess Callandor could as easily be applied to Mesaana IMO, also Mesaana would know that if she was busted by Lanfear, or if Lanfear found out from a third party, that she was immitating her she would be in some serious trouble. So it would be a pretty big risk to take.<br /><br />That said, I was sceptical at first, but the bit at the end changed my mind, especially the bit about the mark.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 02:44:02
subject: <b>Some responses</b>
body:
To Xenocide: You say that you don't think that Lanfear didn't want Rand in Tear. Well, that's what I think, too, at least in as much as she had nothing to do with the attempt to get him there. <br /><br />You then go on to say that Mesaana's part was to dump the clues and lure the girls to Tear. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at, but that was the whole point in the first place, Mesaana was the one that did it, not Lanfear. And she did it disguised as Selene. And yet you disagree. <br /><br />I guess I don't see what you are trying to say, other than you seem to agree with the reasons I based the theory on, yet disagree with the theory.<br /><br /><br />To taint: Too much like Lanfear? What are you basing your information on? The Selene we see in TGH and the early parts of TDR act completely different than the Lanfear we see in the Stone. Different philosophy about fate, no use of compulsion, no arm touching, and we see Lanfear's lust for power for herself, while Selene offered fame and glory to the boys. Not only that though, Lanfear in the Stone has come to claim her man, only to find someone else has already claimed him by putting a mark on him. She even says: &quot;Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.&quot; (Not to be facetious, but I suggest going back and rereading that part there in particular. Just who do you think she is referring to as a caretaker?)<br /><br /><br />To MC: I think you are just remembering wrong. Here is the way it went. Kadere offers to let them look at his wares. Rhuarc says later, when they stop at Imre stand. At the last moment, Mat says, &quot;A hat. I'll give a gold mark for a hat.&quot; Keille shouts out, &quot;Done.&quot; Here is the conversation:<br /><br /> &quot;A good offer,&quot; she said in those musical tones. &quot;I am Keille Shaogi, peddler.&quot; She snatched the hat away from Kadere and thrust it up at Mat. &quot;Stout, good sir, and nearly new. You will need its like to survive the Three-fold Land. Here, a man can die ...&quot; Fat fingers made a whip-crack. &quot;like so.&quot; Her sudden laugh had the same throaty, caressing quality as her voice. &quot;Or a woman. Agold mark, you said.&quot; When he hesitated, her half-buried eyes glittered raven black. &quot;I seldom offer any man a bargain twice.&quot; TSR, Misdirections.<br /><br />She said that because he hesitated, and that was all. <br /><br /><br />To Shooganooga: I agree with the part about Callandor, too. Mesaana must have had guarantees from Be'lal or she planned to double-cross him later. It was a rather weak part of the theory, I think. However, I see Mesaana as a &quot;lesser&quot; Chosen for some reason, and I think she realized early on that she would be no match for Rand, and would need help to bring him down. <br /><br />Lanfear, OTOH, is at the top of the food-chain, and she knows she can handle him by herself, IMO. I think most of her actions show her to be independent and power-hungry. She uses Asmo because Rand needs a teacher, and buddies up with Graendal, Sammy, and Rahvin, but only to be in on their plans inasmuch to prevent them from interfering with hers.<br /><br />All that said, I just can't see Lanfear letting Be'lal get his hands on the sword. The animosity there has to flow both ways, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 06:00:42
subject: <b>I am ambivalent on this</b>
body:
Now, if I were to buy your theory, it would have to be based on an assumption that Lanfear had a tendency not only to call herself Selene, but accompany it with a certain kind of mask of mirrors. If not, it does not work. <br />Also. If RJ said Lanfear traced the dragon's fang on Rand, and you say she first noticed it in Tear... does that not conflict... Am I missing something. I feel like I am.<br />How would she be able to see it, but other aes sedai not? I find it odd...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 06:33:27
subject: <b>Re: mierin sedai</b>
body:
The &quot;Selene&quot; disguise is simply what Lanfear looked like when she was young. She wears this all the time, and only takes it off to show Rand what she really looke like in the Stone. So, all of the Forsaken would know this, and Lanfear even tells us in the Stone, that Selene is a name she sometimes uses, something else the Forsaken would know. (The name Selene means Moon Goddess, IIRC, BTW)<br /><br />What you missed that I was trying to say was that it was actually Mesaana that put the mark on Rand, in the guise of Selene/Lanfear. That's why the real Lanfear (In the Stone of Tear), says he's been marked, and obviously not by her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 12:41:30
subject: <b>comments:</b>
body:
Well, the gloves come. Mesaana posing as Lanfear. I don't know if I buy it - but I'm skeptic by nature and tend to speak in terms of possibilities and not absolute. So, it's possible. How possible, right now you got me at a 50/50 shot of the connections. I'll make comments on some of the points you make.<br /><br /><b>&quot;Mesaana in particular was annoyed, though she tried to hide it. She thinks Lews Therin soon will be in our hands, but then she has said the same every time. She was sure Be'lal would kill or capture him in Tear; she was very proud of that trap.&quot; LoC, chap. 6.</b><br /><br />You might be reading too much into this quote. It seems to be the inspiration of your theory. However, RJ does very little without purpose. We see so few POV from forsaken (especially early in the series) that every word they say is important. Maybe you are on to something. Maybe.<br /><br /><b>&quot;So many faces in his dreams. Selene had come, cool and mysterious and so lovely his mouth went dry just thinking of her, offering him glory as she had - so long ago, it seemed - but now it was the sword she said he had to take. And with the sword would come her. Callandor. That was always in his dreams. Always. And taunting faces. Hands, pushing Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne into cages, snaring them in nets, hurting them.&quot; TDR, The First Ship, HB, p.308.<br /><br />That passage shows us a multi-faceted lure to urge Rand on towards Tear. The promise of glory, Callandor, Selene, and the threat of the three girls being caged. We can definitely see that 'Selene' is infiltrating his dreams. The 'snaring them in nets' might indicate Be'lal was invading his dreams as well, since he was known as the 'Netweaver'. <br /></b><br />This is some of your best evidence - Selene is obviously working with Be'lal. Lanfear and Be'lal may not work well together - we just don't know enough. But you argue it very well.<br /><br /><b>Did you ever wonder why 'Else' was in a deserted part of the Tower grounds? This is most likely where Mesaana made her gateways in and out of the Tower, at least at that time. Why else would she have been there, and been so surprised to see Mat? I believe this shows that she hadn't taken up living in the Tower yet, but she had a place she knew well enough to make gateways for Traveling.<br /></b><br />This does not add anything to your argument IMO. And I'm not sure I agree. It would be simpler to find and abandoned room (or the room that whoever she is masquerading as occupies) and travel to and from there. It would be much less likely that she would be overseen. She also might do this to help eliminate the possiblility of an AS reading the residue of the weave.<br /><br /><b>&quot;Suppose? I did not come to you like this, talk in this way, for suppose, Matrim Cauthon.&quot;<br /><br />When I first read these lines, I took it to mean coming to see Mat in person, instead of in his dreams. However, we have never seen 'Selene' in Mat's dreams, ever. If you look at it from the perspective of Mesaana saying this, it takes on an entirely different meaning: (Looking like Lanfear, acting like Lanfear, saying the things that Lanfear would say.).<br /></b><br />This is pretty weak.<br /><br /><b>&quot;She frowned at his face. &quot;You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.&quot;</b><br /><br />Well, always interpreted this as the look on his face indicated reflected his actions with Elayne. Now, I'm not to sure. I believe the mark to be your strongest argument. Other info you can use involves to describe marks on forheads involves Fain. Fain has developed the ability to identify DF by seeing a mark on their forhead. He describes this in his own POV. I don't believe in coincidences.<br /><br /><b> &quot;I was buried deeply, in a dreamless sleep where time did not flow. The turnings of the Wheel passed me by. Now you see me as I am, and I have you in my hands.&quot; </b><br /><br />You're right, it does sound like she just woke up.<br /><br /><b>&quot;You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.&quot; Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. &quot;Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even ... the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!&quot;<br /></b><br />Her leaving out mention of the time in Cairhen is not (necessarily) significant. It doesn't fit well with the conversation.<br /><br /><b>Just a few more points, and we'll move on. When 'Selene', Rand, Loial and Hurin were about to get to the inn outside Cairhien, she asked Rand if they couldn't spend the night outside again, sleeping under the stars. Instead, they go to the inn, and after they&#8217;ve eaten dinner, she demands a room for herself. Did you ever wonder why &#8216;Selene&#8217; doesn't take advantage of spending the night in Rand's bed? Apparently Mesaana is brave enough to borrow Lanfear&#8217;s face, but smart enough to not risk Lanfear&#8217;s wrath by sleeping with her man. <br /><br />Another thing that I think you will see that is blatantly obvious is Mesaana&#8217;s constant lure of fame and glory and telling all three boys to follow their destiny. She also insinuates to Mat and Perrin that she will be back in the future to talk to them again. (She tells Perrin she can come to him in his dreams, and tells Mat to do as the AS want him to do for now.) Then she never visits either of them again. Why? Simply stated, the real Lanfear shows up soon after these meetings, and she can no longer impersonate her. <br /><br />Lanfear is interested in LTT and power for herself, not fame and glory for others. Who can forget the ecstasy on her face as she describes her visit to the DO, or how she lusts after the power of the Choeden Kal? Remember the words that Rand blurted out to her in the Stone?:<br /></b><br />You might have a point about the inn, but might not. Rand pissed her off pretty good, she wasn't interested in any 'action'. Also, it seems that she is trying to get him to come to her first.<br /><br />Your trying to separate Fame and Glory and Power from each other seems incomplete. They are often related, especially with fame and glory often being stepping stones to power.<br /><br /><br /><br />Sorry about the length <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> more to come in the next theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 16:59:08
subject: <b>Re: kcf</b>
body:
You might be reading too much into this quote. It seems to be the inspiration of your theory. However, RJ does very little without purpose. We see so few POV from forsaken (especially early in the series) that every word they say is important. Maybe you are on to something. Maybe.<br /><br />That quote was what made me suspicious, indeed. And yes, without the POV's of the Forsaken, we would have absolutely no clues to some of their plots, or who was involved in the ones we might suspect. Mesaana's pride implies involvement of some kind, at the very least. It makes her a prime suspect and we know that Be'lal would need help from within the Tower to get the girls pointed towards Tear.<br /><br />&quot;So many faces in his dreams. Selene had come, cool and mysterious and so lovely his mouth went dry just thinking of her, offering him glory as she had - so long ago, it seemed - but now it was the sword she said he had to take. And with the sword would come her. Callandor. That was always in his dreams. Always. And taunting faces. Hands, pushing Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne into cages, snaring them in nets, hurting them.&quot; TDR, The First Ship, HB, p.308.<br /><br />That passage shows us a multi-faceted lure to urge Rand on towards Tear. The promise of glory, Callandor, Selene, and the threat of the three girls being caged. We can definitely see that 'Selene' is infiltrating his dreams. The 'snaring them in nets' might indicate Be'lal was invading his dreams as well, since he was known as the 'Netweaver'. <br /><br />This is some of your best evidence - Selene is obviously working with Be'lal. Lanfear and Be'lal may not work well together - we just don't know enough. But you argue it very well.<br /><br />Thank you on that.<br /><br />Did you ever wonder why 'Else' was in a deserted part of the Tower grounds? This is most likely where Mesaana made her gateways in and out of the Tower, at least at that time. Why else would she have been there, and been so surprised to see Mat? I believe this shows that she hadn't taken up living in the Tower yet, but she had a place she knew well enough to make gateways for Traveling.<br /><br />This does not add anything to your argument IMO. And I'm not sure I agree. It would be simpler to find and abandoned room (or the room that whoever she is masquerading as occupies) and travel to and from there. It would be much less likely that she would be overseen. She also might do this to help eliminate the possiblility of an AS reading the residue of the weave.<br /><br />It was just an observation on my part. Even Traveling into unoccupied rooms could pose a danger of running into a maid doing cleaning. That's not something that couldn't be handled with ease, but if you start killing maids or using compulsion on them, it might become suspicious before long. I was only trying to show that she hadn't taken up permanent residence there at that time. I know it doesn't help my case, but why hide from the issue? Better to be up-front about it, and it also casts doubt that any other Forsaken was staying there either. If someone else was staying there, they would have met in a prearranged room that was safe to do so, and not be sneaking around in their territory.<br /><br />&quot;Suppose? I did not come to you like this, talk in this way, for suppose, Matrim Cauthon.&quot;<br /><br />When I first read these lines, I took it to mean coming to see Mat in person, instead of in his dreams. However, we have never seen 'Selene' in Mat's dreams, ever. If you look at it from the perspective of Mesaana saying this, it takes on an entirely different meaning: (Looking like Lanfear, acting like Lanfear, saying the things that Lanfear would say.).<br /><br />This is pretty weak.<br /><br />It isn't strong, true. But what did she mean? Even imagining that it was Lanfear instead of Mesaana, it's a strange thing to say, especially given the fact that we've never seen her in his dreams.<br /><br />&quot;She frowned at his face. &quot;You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.&quot;<br /><br />Well, always interpreted this as the look on his face indicated reflected his actions with Elayne. Now, I'm not to sure. I believe the mark to be your strongest argument. Other info you can use involves to describe marks on forheads involves Fain. Fain has developed the ability to identify DF by seeing a mark on their forhead. He describes this in his own POV. I don't believe in coincidences.<br /><br />His actions with Elayne? I'm not quite sure what your getting at here. Are you talking about them kissing? Unless they were kissing with the One Power, I don't see that she could be marking him in any way. <br /><br />Ishy also talks about people being marked for death or those to be brought to bow down to him in the chapter &quot;Daughter of the Night.&quot; This and Fain was what alerted me to Lanfear's comment about him being marked. Ishy was clearly referring to a mark that showed signs of ownership.<br /><br />&quot;I was buried deeply, in a dreamless sleep where time did not flow. The turnings of the Wheel passed me by. Now you see me as I am, and I have you in my hands.&quot; <br /><br />You're right, it does sound like she just woke up.<br /><br />Yes, the fact she states this twice reaffirms my suspicions, plus taking off the disguise shows us she is the real Lanfear.<br /><br />&quot;You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.&quot; Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. &quot;Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even ... the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!&quot;<br /><br />Her leaving out mention of the time in Cairhen is not (necessarily) significant. It doesn't fit well with the conversation.<br /><br />The real point to made was she had opportunities to say things that would lead us to believe that she was with Rand back at that time. But she never gives us any indication that she was. In fact, when he mentions returning her to Cairhien, she clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.<br /><br />Just a few more points, and we'll move on. When 'Selene', Rand, Loial and Hurin were about to get to the inn outside Cairhien, she asked Rand if they couldn't spend the night outside again, sleeping under the stars. Instead, they go to the inn, and after they&#8217;ve eaten dinner, she demands a room for herself. Did you ever wonder why &#8216;Selene&#8217; doesn't take advantage of spending the night in Rand's bed? Apparently Mesaana is brave enough to borrow Lanfear&#8217;s face, but smart enough to not risk Lanfear&#8217;s wrath by sleeping with her man. <br /><br />Another thing that I think you will see that is blatantly obvious is Mesaana&#8217;s constant lure of fame and glory and telling all three boys to follow their destiny. She also insinuates to Mat and Perrin that she will be back in the future to talk to them again. (She tells Perrin she can come to him in his dreams, and tells Mat to do as the AS want him to do for now.) Then she never visits either of them again. Why? Simply stated, the real Lanfear shows up soon after these meetings, and she can no longer impersonate her. <br /><br />Lanfear is interested in LTT and power for herself, not fame and glory for others. Who can forget the ecstasy on her face as she describes her visit to the DO, or how she lusts after the power of the Choeden Kal? Remember the words that Rand blurted out to her in the Stone?:<br /><br />You might have a point about the inn, but might not. Rand pissed her off pretty good, she wasn't interested in any 'action'. Also, it seems that she is trying to get him to come to her first.<br /><br />Actually it might be simply that he scared her off because of his reaction to the statue and his resolve afterward in turning her down. If that's the case, I think it's more evidence it's Mesaana. Lanfear would never react that way to anyone. She's powerful and she knows it. She would not be scared off so easily.<br /><br />Your trying to separate Fame and Glory and Power from each other seems incomplete. They are often related, especially with fame and glory often being stepping stones to power.<br /><br />The biggest difference that I see is that Lanfear talks about power only. She doesn't ever mention fame and glory for herself. &quot;And you loved power!&quot; was what Rand said to her. <br /><br />Some people do use fame and glory as stepping stones to power. Lanfear appears to just lust after power for its sake alone.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 17:57:58
subject: <b>Double Wow...</b>
body:
Wow...<br /><br />I'm pretty skeptical as a person...but the evidence you present seems to mount in favor of Mesaana as Selene.  I always thought that there was a dichotomy to Lanfear's persona.  I think you just scratched that itch rather convincingly.<br /> <br />I've read all the comments everyone has posted, but I think your responses either answers them or presents a compelling possibility of being just as correct an interpretation.  <br /><br />Wow...  <br /><br />JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS. Can't wait to Read And Find Out about the rest of this very long theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 18:13:15
subject: <b>an alternate explanation</b>
body:
There is a very revealing quote which I have to find from a Forsaken about Lanfear saying that she always meddles in other people's plots then flits away to safety when they fail.  A better explanation of all your theories so far is that Lanfear was out and about and meddling in other Forsaken plots.  (Lanfear may use dreaming ability to predict which paths will meddle the most even.)<br /><br />For example Ishy's plan was to steal the horn and possibly kill Fain.  Lanfear meddled by having Fain rescued and points him toward Falme.  (Remember Lanfear's comments 'Ishy thinks he controls events but I do.')<br /><br />In tDR, Mesaana and Be'lal plan to lure Rand partly by threatening to trap Elayne and company.  There is no need to actually capture them and hold them at Tear, for the threat to work.  If they simply disappeared it would work as well even if by some mysterious event information from the tower reached Rand.  Enter Lanfear to meddle in their plan by sending Nynaeve, and company in the most suspicious manner possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 21:53:59
subject: <b>A tour de' force.....</b>
body:
My brain wants to agree with you ...but my gut reaction is <b>no</b> ..... I am posting this before I read the comments of the others, I'll be doing that soon.. I just wanted to comment before i let other ideas cloud my current view... I'll say more after a bit of pondering..<br /><br />.... I will say this, however..... For your theory to be correct...well it would force me to re-evaluate many things in WoT...heck even if it wern't tru you have already done that...<br /><br /> BTW...it's theories like thisthat make the TP such agreat place to visit and play.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 00:53:59
subject: <b>Very well constructed, but I don't know</b>
body:
I have never seen any reason to disbelieve that Lanfear was Selene. You make some very good arguments for why she could be Mesaana, but it still seems odd. Lanfear could have tried one tactic with the compulsion and all and then decided that it was time to reveal herself to Rand as herself. And why would Mesaana masquerade as Lanfear. Certainly all the bits that weren't related to Rand could have been done as herself. I see nothing to be gained in masquerading as Lanfear in the events in the WT. The bits with Rand would work better if she was impersonating Lanfear, but why do it then? What would Mesaana have gained in being &quot;Selene&quot; and trying to get Rand to go after fame and glory? Lanfear certainly wanted to tie Rand (or more appropriately, Lews Therin) to her and she talks to him later in TSR and TFoH about having great power together, so trying to get him to go after fame and glory earlier dosen't seem all that different. It falls right in with what she says later. I just isn't as directed yet (as in take over the world with her) since she hasn't revealed herself to him yet. And for that matter, he'd probably be more malleable, if he wanted fame and glory and she was leading him to it. And since when has Mesaana done much in TAR? That's what Lanfear likes to do (as well as Moghedien and some of the male Forsaken of course). We have seen no evidence of Mesaana in TAR that I can think of and Selene was definitely doing some things in TAR. So, while you have some very good arguments, I can't buy it yet. I see no compelling reason to see why Mesaana would have done all that Selene did.<br /><br />And the big question that comes to my mind in rereading some of those sections. How do you explain Lanfear's remark when she first sees Rand in Tear?<br /><br />&quot;You are changed from the last time I saw you.  Stronger.  Harder.&quot; [TSR, p.180 paperback]<br /><br />If Lanfear wasn't Selene, <i>when</i> had she seen him? I can't think of any such circumstances - <i>especially</i> if she was just recently freed from the Bore. And as for talking about being deep in the Bore, she hadn't previously admitted who she was and thus is <i>now</i> explaining; and she is probably also explaing why she's still beautiful and relatively young after 3000 years or so of being locked up.<br /><br />And as for the Cairhien estates bit, she's now revealing herself as Lanfear as opposed to Selene, and is therefore informing him that that was a ruse and that she's really Lanfear and not some Cairhien noble. She doesn't give a hoot about Cairhien. She says, &quot;Now you see me as I am (<i>as opposed to Selene</i>), and I have you in my hands.... The time for games and subterfuge (<i>i.e. disguising herself as Selene</i>) is past, Lews Therin. Long past.&quot; [TSR p.182 paperback] If she wasn't Selene, why make a point of &quot;now you see me as I am&quot; and &quot;the time for games and subterfuge is past.&quot; Granted she showed up as Selene, but why do that if she hadn't been Selene previously? Why not show herself as herself when she first arrives? To my knowledge, RJ never makes a point of whether or not she looks like Selene or Lanfear later. And what games and subterfuge was she referring to if she hadn't been disguised as Selene?<br /><br />Now, the line about &quot;That can only mean Lanfear is loose again. Or someone wants us to think she is.&quot; in TGH makes me wonder a bit. And at the moment I'm not sure what the whole bit with the mark is about if it wasn't someone other than Lanfear that drew the Dragon's Fang on Rand's forehead, but I have yet to really look into it. Though, if you read the passage in TSR, Lanfear definitely <i>was</i> looking at his face (&quot;She frowned at his face.&quot;[p.181 TSR paperback]). And as for the RJ quote, there's nothing to point to Lanfear having done anything other than draw the Dragon's Fang on his forehead. And after all, he <i>is</i> the Dragon. Besides, in Lanfear's time, the Dragon's Fang wasn't even the Dragon's Fang. It was just the sign for male AS (and Rand's basically a male AS).<br /><br />So, you make some great points and you've certainly got me thinking, but I'm going to have to vote no for now. I just don't see why Mesaana would have posed as Lanfear and Selene's actions match better with Lanfear than Mesaana. And especially, there's the quietion, <i>when</i> did Lanfear meet Rand before TSR if not as Selene? There are unexplained points on both sides of the debate, but I'll have to go with Lanfear=Selene for now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 02:04:03
subject: <b>Some more responses:</b>
body:
To RabidWombat: Yes, the only way for Rand to suspect that Egwene and company were in danger was to tell him. Mesaana does just that in his dreams, showing them getting locked in a cage, and getting snared in nets. It appears Be'lal may have participated in this too. All a part of the lure to get him to Tear.<br /><br />As for her meddling, the only thing we can say that she did in that regard was to place herself with Sammy, Graendal and Rahvin, to prevent them from spoiling her plans for Rand. And of course the failed trap to get him to go after Sammy, spoiled by Rand when he instead goes after Rahvin.<br /><br />To Kalessin: Most of your arguments I have already countered in previous posts above this, so I'm not going to repeat it again just for you. I know the quote you refer to and felt it does need to be addressed here. <br /><br />&quot;You are changed from when I last saw you. Stronger. Harder.&quot; <br /><br />What you need to look at is the conversation that takes place after that. Listen to how Lanfear addresses Rand, EVERY TIME:<br /><br />&quot;Selene is only a name I sometimes use, LEWS THERIN. The name I made for myself is Lanfear&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I cannot trust you fully, LEWS THERIN. Not yet.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;No, LEWS THERIN. I will not trust you yet with that.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Stop calling me that,&quot; he growled. &quot;My name is Rand al'Thor.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You are LEWS THERIN TELAMON. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height, but I would know who is behind those eyes even if I'd found you in your cradle.&quot;<br /><br />Do you see how she is seeing him now? Not as Rand, but as Lews Therin. She is simply saying that he is changed from when she last saw him. And that was in the AoL as Lews Therin. It is the way she remembers her lover looking back then, that's all. In fact, Lanfear never calls him Rand as Selene did in the earlier books that I can recall. It is always Lews Therin. <br /><br />The other point you make is about the Selene disguise. This is what Lanfear wears constantly. Basically, a younger version of herself. &quot;Now you see me as I truly am.&quot; is when she shows what she really looks like by dropping the mask of Illusion, and described as: &quot;older certainly, but looking lusher, riper, a flower in full bloom as opposed to a bud.&quot; <br /><br />After she releases Rand to kill the Gray Man, he meets up with her in the hallway later, and she is wearing the disguise again. <br /><br />You can see that she also says the name Selene is one she sometimes uses, so we can assume the other Forsaken are aware of this, as well as the disguise she wears constantly, even when meeting other Forsaken.<br /><br />And for the mark on his forehead, look to my above post and the one by kcf.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 23:27:33
subject: <b>Great theory, but there's one thing I don't get...</b>
body:
In the incident with &quot;Else&quot; [TDR, Ch.25, <i>Questions</i>], when Egwene follows &quot;Else&quot; down the stairwell, at the bottom she finds a stunningly beautiful woman who matches the standard description of Lanfear- lots of silver, tall, and incredibly beautiful.<br /><br />I can accept Mesaana weaving an Illusion so she looks like Selene. I can accept Mesaana weaving an Illusion so she looks like Else Grimwell. But I can't see her holding the Else illusion for the entire conversation, going away, walking down some stairs, and then at the bottom switching. Why would she do that? Wouldn't it be easier to hold the Illusion of Else, instead of turning into a completely different person and possibly arousing suspicions?<br /><br />In fact, we don't even know if that <i>is</i> the Selene form. It could be Lanfear's true, un-Masked form- how would Egwene know the difference?<br /><br />What I'm trying to say here is, what if it was Lanfear masquerading as Else, and she released the Else-weave before Egwene caught up. When Egwene did catch up, she might have woven a small Compulsion, and then told her a very improbable story.<br /><br />Anyway, that's the only hole I can spot in your theory. Very good so far, I'm looking forward to the next sections <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud president of the Society of People Who Make Up Societies And Pretend To Be The President Of Said Societies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> People put WAY too many smileys in their sigs... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-14 20:51:22
subject: <b>I think I agree, but...</b>
body:
<b>On TOR&#8217;s new web page, a recent question of the week posed to Robert Jordon asked what Lanfear did to Rand at the end of The Great Hunt. His response:<br /><br />&#8220;She drew the Dragon Fang on his forehead. For exactly the reason you would think.<br /><br />After reading CoT and looking closely at Lanfear&#8217;s reaction at the Stone of Tear, I think we know exactly what that reason was. &#8220;First Claiming&#8221; was a very appropriate title for the chapter.</b><br /><br />Maybe it's just cause I'm tired, but, well, what exactly is that reason? It wasn't even Lanfear, unlike what RJ's words seem to confirm...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--==[[]]==--<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Matt Gluthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />[4.5] <i>years and counting since last read through.<br />Please inform me of any facts I ever get wrong.</i><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-14 21:43:03
subject: <b>Mr. Jordan</b>
body:
Mat Gluthon's post directly above mine seems to be along the same line i would like to draw, but I have a hard time understanding it. On the whole so far I have no problems with your theory, very well thought out and all that good stuff, though why it would be is totally beyond me, yet you included a quote from RJ in which it seems to me that he blatantly states that the person who marks Rand at the end of TGH, Selene, is Lanfear...isn't that contradictory to your theory?


created: 2004-03-15 02:33:16
subject: <b>More replies:</b>
body:
To Deaths lawyer: That's why I went to the effort of showing that the &quot;Selene&quot; that visited Mat in TDR, was the same one that we saw in TGH. She uses the same enticements on him as she does on Rand, making it much more likely it's the same person that visits the girls. Both encounters occur on the same day in the Tower. I can't see them switching off, and both being there on the same day, just hours apart. I think the evidence shows it more likely to be Mesaana planting the evidence and delivering the message, than Lanfear. This was part of the plot to capture Rand in Tear, after-all. <br /><br />The woman claiming to be Lanfear in Falme says: &quot;Ishamael thinks he controls events. I do.&quot;<br /><br />The woman that sees Egwene with the stone ring ter'angreal, that changes shape from Else to Selene, later appears in T'A'R as &quot;Silvie.&quot; (Silvie says: &quot;So you found your way at last.&quot; This shows us she was waiting for Egwene to appear.) <br /><br />Later &quot;Silvie&quot; says this: &quot;Plots,&quot; she said as if to herself. &quot;All of them pretending to serve the Great Lord, and all the while plotting and planning to regain what they lost. Each one thinking he or she is the only one plotting. Ishamael is a fool.&quot; TDR, chapter 27.<br /><br />Perhaps not the exact same thought as the &quot;Lanfear&quot; in Falme, but definite disdain for Ishamael at least. Take note that she says the others are hoping to regain what they lost, but seems to exclude herself. (And you can tell it's a Forsaken by the way she talks intimately of Ishamael and the others.)<br /><br />To Matt Gluthon: The &quot;mark&quot; is a sign of ownership. (Compare to Shadar Haran's comment: &quot;I mark you as mine.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To lonflobber: Not a contradiction in the least. The woman in Falme has just claimed the name of &quot;Lanfear.&quot; The questioner asks Robert Jordan what &quot;Lanfear&quot; did to Rand in Falme. <br /><br />What did you expect RJ to do? Correct the questioner? No way is he going to do that. Instead, he says: &quot;SHE drew the Dragon Fang on him.&quot; <br /><br />He didn't lie. In fact, he didn't even use the name Lanfear. He certainly isn't going to say Mesaana drew the Dragon Fang on him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 12:16:06
subject: <b>Yeah...</b>
body:
Yeah, Light, I guess that's just what I was wondering: if Jordan would go that far in his answers to confuse us even further <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. Man, he's a sneaky SOB, huh? Though I suppose saying &quot;That woman&quot; instead of &quot;She&quot; would have made it too obvious. Really, though, if he wanted to be nice he could have just not answered that particular question, but noooo, he had to further imprint in people's minds that Selene has always been no one but Lanfear...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--==[[]]==--<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Matt Gluthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />[4.5] <i>years and counting since last read through.<br />Please inform me of any facts I ever get wrong.</i><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 15:12:49
subject: <b>Almost convinced</b>
body:
After reading your theory so far i&#180;m almost convinced. Especially the bit about the chapter pictures (although i haven&#180;t looked myself) is good.<br /><br />Now some more info i tried to find based on your theory.<br /><br />Egwenes Dream (TGH) where a woman, face shrouded in shadows, stands above the sleeping Rand is one of only two dreams where Egwene cannot make out a face. It might be a clue that the woman she sees is masquerading as someone else (Selene/Mesaana).<br /><br />The other dream is about Mat and a shadow shrouded woman beckoning him towards monstrous danger (TLOC / A pile of Sand). <br />Now, if the woman in the first dream is posing as another, so the same truth should hold for the woman in the second dream. Reading the FAQ i saw that the explanation for the second dream is still undecided. If one can now find a good explanation with this additional info then this would be further proof for your theory.<br /><br />The explanations for the second dream so far :<br />Semirhage (don&#180;t think so, she isn&#180;t &quot;really&quot; posing as someone else (Anath=Semirhage=Your readily available masochist) and didn&#180;t have much contact with Mat till now)<br /><br />Tuon (Assuming Egwenes had other dreams about Tuon and she sees the face of the seanchan woman there clearly Tuon shouldn&#180;t be the explanation)<br /><br />Satelle Anan (a woman shrouded in shadows, not evil; a possibility)<br /><br />Aran-Gar (maybe, although he/she is definetly evil and the dream doesnt&#180;t state this).<br /><br />The female Assasin (known from (TEOTW) and later books, don&#180;t know her name but Mat following her makes Sammael realize Mats proximity. Also, the dream states &quot;monstrous&quot; danger. Maybe a clue for the Gholam. After all Sammael commands the Gholam. The explanation for the shadow shrouded face in the dream would be her posing as a noble, rather weak)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-17 21:13:34
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
The only problem really that I see is why would messana take this risk?  If every one of the forsaken knows thats what lanfear used to look like wouldn't one of them find out?  Wouldn't they then, to further there own plans and hurt messanas, want to tell lanfear knowing it would make her kill messana?  As far as I can tell this never happened..also the mark that she drew on his head seemed to do nothing.  If it was somehow related to the power and compulsion wouldn't it have had more of an effect?<br /><br />Interesting though, very interesting and thought provoking easily the best group of theorys I've read.


created: 2004-03-17 23:12:57
subject: <b>Yes!!</b>
body:
I posted AGES ago about not understanding why Lanfear set the 'trap' in the tower. I thought it should have been Mesaana and was confused about who was controlling the BA. Although I dont know if I agree with your theory, it definately answers my question.<br />I disagreed totally until I read that you supposed Mesaana hadnt found an identity yet. I was thinking &quot;Mesaana couldnt pretend to be Else and Lanfear when she is supposed to be an Aes Sedai (or some such) in the tower. How could she be traipsing across the countryside when she can't even make it to Forsaken meetings?&quot;<br />So, I might just agree with you, UNLESS we find out that at this time Mesaana already had an identity in the tower.<br /><br />Did that even make sense? lol.


created: 2004-03-19 05:23:33
subject: <b>More replies:</b>
body:
To Talathar: I'll have to check that particular bit of info out further. It may or may not be related, I can't tell at the moment.<br /><br />To dacole: Getting close to Rand and influencing him early would be worth it, I think. She certainly had a good chance to get to learn quite a few useful things about him. And if Lanfear wasn't free yet, the risk was small. As for the other Forsaken ratting her out, that's rather doubtful, too, if they were even aware of what she was doing. Lanfear seems to be somewhat of a loner, that is to say, she worked by herself towards her own ends for the most part. She used Asmo, not really teamed up with him, and looked what she did to him. <br /><br />On top of that, it appears to me that Sammy, Rahvin and probably Be'lal weren't freed from the seals until after the battle at Falme, when two more of the seals broke. All three of them are first seen during the following winter, taking their places in Illian, Caemlyn and Tear. For the most part though, I don't think the other Forsaken really like Lanfear all that much, and would keep their mouths shut about what Mesaana did.<br /><br />As for the mark. It appears to me it is a sign of ownership. As such, I think she is able to use it as a means of finding Rand whenever she wants to, no matter where he is. Fain seems able to find Darkfriends by seeing a mark on their foreheads. And as for complusion, I think I've shown that that isn't Mesaana's strong suit, and we don't know that the mark would help with that either. (They didn't know about the warder bond in the AoL, so I don't think the mark is related in that way. I liken it more to the coins that Moiraine gave the boys in tEotW.)<br /><br />To Miss_Persephone: I'm glad you found it a viable explanation for your earlier ponderings. Even though it looked like it might weaken my theory, I thought it was obvious she had not found a place yet in the Tower. Using the Tower grounds as a place to Travel I felt showed this to be the case, fairly well. Using Else as a disguise showed she had been hanging around there some, though. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-07 00:27:26
subject: <b>Just one question</b>
body:
I have just started re-reading the books, so I don't quite remember the events in the Dragon Reborn clearly, but wasn't there a scene where Perrin watched Selene stand up to Ishamael in the dreamworld ?<br /><br />It might actually be pointless, as they are all Forsaken, but I thought that Lanfear would be the only one to stand up to Ishamael face-to-face. He is after all very powerfull. And insane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-28 18:21:33
subject: <b>Re:Fanatic-Templar</b>
body:
Yes, Lanfear does just that, in the chapter entitled &quot;Daughter of the Night&quot;, in TDR, which I believe is her very first appearance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-20 16:22:22
subject: <b>Tower Trap</b>
body:
You argue:<br /><br />Later that same day, we see Egwene on her way to see Verin, whose quarters are above the library. For those of you that may have missed it, there is a POV from her along the way through the corridors:<br /><br />&quot;Many of the lamps were unlit, plunging much of the hall into gloom. Egwene thought she had it to herself, except for a flash of white ahead, perhaps a novice or servant scurrying about some task. Her shoes, clicking on bare black and white floor tiles, made echoes. It was not a comforting place for one thinking of the Black Ajah.&quot; TDR, chap. 20.<br /><br />This little blurb would not be worth mentioning if it weren't for what happens later. We know that 'Selene' planted information about the Black sisters that fled the Tower, and hid it beneath the library in a storage room. I'm confident that this is Jordan's attempt to show us the deed being carried out. Egwene thinking about the Black Ajah at that time is another hint of that being the case as well.<br /><br />DO we know that 'Selene' planted that information?  I always thought Selene/Lanfear was going to visit Verin.  I'm not convinced that she planted anything in the storage room - where's the evidence?  Though I'll keep an eye out next time I read the book to searh for evidence.


created: 2004-09-22 20:27:01
subject: <b>Re:Sam AlThor</b>
body:
When Nynaeve tells Siuan about all the clues they found in the BA's clothing that pointed them to Tear, Siuan informed her that all of their belongings had been destroyed, that no one would want anything that belonged to them.<br /><br />The fact that the girls found belongings with clues hidden among them, indicates that this was all fabricated evidence. Since this phony &quot;Else&quot; was the one that delivered the message to search for the clues, I think it's rather obvious who had a hand in it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-17 09:19:25
subject: <b>I agree-ish</b>
body:
Even though I really don't want to agree.  I just reread the first three books and am working on the forth now.  The sections that makes me believe this theory are as follows:<br /><br />TSR, Chap 9, Decisions<br />&quot;You have been marked.&quot; She smiled wryly. &quot;Estates in Cairhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name I sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name I made my own is Lanfear.&quot;<br /><br />AND<br /><br />'She was still the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. Elayne and Egwene were only pretty beside her. For some reason, though, she did not affect him the way she had'<br /><br />1. Because the mark, she seems to see a mark.<br />2. Because of the question mark after Cairhien and here lack of reaction to the statement, she would remember using that lie.<br />3. Because of 'Selene' being a name she only uses sometime, instead of, 'My real name is Lanfear'.<br />4. Because 'she did not affect him the way she had'. Selene effected everyone the same way, even the women.  That would lead you to believe it was because of her beauty, but here we see she is as beautiful as always, but does not have the same effect.  That leads me to believe that the power may have been involved and that it may not have been Lanfear before.<br />5. And never once does she call him Rand, always Lews Therin.  I don't think she could, no matter the case, call him Rand.<br /><br />I am sure they are two different people, but I am not sure Mesaana is the other Selene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For movie reviews and eternal life, check out http://www.richmondreviewers.com</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 17:15:51
subject: <b>Ever Read the Glossary?</b>
body:
On my paperback of &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot;, the glossary clearly states:<br /><br />Selene - The name used by the forsaken Lanfear.<br /><br />Crash! Bam! Don't think RJ would put that there without a reason.


created: 2004-12-02 16:50:14
subject: <b>Re: Kison</b>
body:
Yep. I've read the glossaries a time or two. I've also read the whole series a number of times. <br /><br />Do you realize that a lot of people in the Wheel of Time go by other names, pretending to be someone they're not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-13 22:29:33
subject: <b>Mat tied to the Horn</b>
body:
Just a minor fact correction here. In the theory it states that we find out Mat is tied to the horn when Verin talks to Siuan in TDR. But in TGH Turak tells Padan Fain that whoever blows the horn is tied to it, so we can know this as soon as Mat blows it.


created: 2005-04-14 12:41:13
subject: <b>Mesaana... You have a good head</b>
body:
I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet.&quot; She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far - and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. &quot;Not with that, certainly.&quot; she added, grimacing at Callandor. There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that.&quot;<br /><br />TWO more powerful that a man can use... The Choedan Cal and ...? Hmmm, good question, ha?<br /><br />And Lanfear(the real one, trusting your theory) said she knew the male sa'angreal still existed. many would think she found that out while escorting Rand as Selene. But I still think you are one hundred percent right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I have only read to this third part of your long theory. Since you have called it ONE theory, even though it is in many parts, I hope you have some kind of conclusion in the last building on all the other parts... I will be disappointed if not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-15 01:05:49
subject: <b>Nice theory but I dont buy the Mesaana bit</b>
body:
I just dont think that Mesaana would impersonate Lanfear, I dont think that she has either the guts to, or the desire to impersonate another of the Forsaken, they all seem pretty contemptuos of each other.<br /><br />  And at the end of tGH when Lanfear or Mesaana or whoever was talking to Min, she talked as if she knew LTT personaly like Lanfear did, and saying &quot;Lews Therin was, and is mine&quot; talking  possessively like Lanfear always does. <br /><br />  Besides, the only reason she would give her name to Min is to make Min afraid, and if it was Mesaana then her own name would suffice.


created: 2004-03-09 14:22:38
subject: <b>I hate you.</b>
body:
Do you know how much emotional energy I spent setting up my dislike of Lanfy, based on tGH alone?<br /><br />Like I said, I'll think about this. But I'll have you know that even if/when you are proved to be brilliantly right, this is the second-most heinous thing you could have done to me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:15:16
subject: <b>Adding to your case</b>
body:
Still haven`t found anything to dispute.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:19:01
subject: <b>Seems pretty good so far.</b>
body:
I've been inclinded to push agree on all four. But now I'm trying to figure out where you're going with the fain connection..... perhaps Messy tryin to setup Lanfear before she even shows up? Or maybe Fain was Lanfear's first act....hmmmmm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 18:13:26
subject: <b>Ummm....but what about this??</b>
body:
Why then did Lanfear appear to Rand in the Stone as Selene if that was Mesaana's disguise?  Mesaana surely wouldn't tell her what she was doing.  To pull off the masquerade and prepare for all contingencies, Lanfear would have had to know everything that went on between Selene and Rand to avoid mistakes.  Yet there is no hint of a Mesaana-Lanfear alliance.  Lanfear doesn't make an alliance with anyone that we know of till Asmodean.  Once he was taken, she formed the small cooperative including her, Graendal, Rahvin, and Sammael who seem completely opposed to the Demandred-Mesaana-Semirhage group.  There's the possibility this is a double cross but why would Mesaana do this?


created: 2004-03-09 20:59:56
subject: <b>Re: Xenocide</b>
body:
I think you are missing the point. Lanfear didn't know anything about the fact that Mesaana was impersonating her. She was taking advantage of Lanfear not being free of the seals yet.<br /><br />As for a reason, to turn the boys to the Shadow. <br /><br />Any number of reason to do it disguised as Lanfear. Anything goes wrong, Lanfear gets blamed. If Rand starts having LTT memories, like he does eventually, don't you think Mesaana's face might be recognized sooner or later. And LTT did love Lanfear at one time. Even though that stopped, it would probably be harder to bring himself to kill her, than it would to kill Mesaana. <br /><br />And the Selene disguise is known to the Forsaken as what Lanfear always uses, as well as the name,(It means Moon Goddess, IIRC) The Selene look, is just Lanfear at a younger age. It is her vanity that wants to make her appear younger, even though she is beautiful as she is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 12:49:06
subject: <b>chapter icons</b>
body:
The chapter icons are potentially a really big clue. I have worries about them though. Does RJ use them as clues for us to find? When did he start doing this? These are both key questions. Were they his idea from the beginning, or a publishing thing totally out of his control? Did he start incorporating them later? etc.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 22:11:01
subject:
<b>Lanfear+Imprisonment= Evil Sleeping Beauty...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
The point about Lanfear still being sealed gives much more weight to this... I'm leaning more to a <i>yes</i>  ..... but..... Do we have any clues as to when Mesaana was set free.... this would lend even more  weight to your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 00:22:55
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
This is certainly interesting... your arguments have a nice ring to them in this section.  They are all circumstantial, but I really like it.<br /><br />If you are correct, I will call you the greatest theoryposter at wotmania.  (although I might call you that even if you are wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Check my arguments in the 5th section about the mark, however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 19:14:44
subject: <b>Risky Business</b>
body:
Is Messana that much of a risk taker?  She has to weigh the risk vs reward and knowing Lanfear, would she as you suggest, pose as Salene?<br /><br />You make a good arguement.  You've all but convinced me and know I'm off to read the final chapter.<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 23:17:20
subject: <b>To elaborate on what Xenocide said earlier</b>
body:
When Lanfear meets Rand in the stone of Tear, he recognises her as the Selene he has met before. Lanfear then turns into the way she actually looks and tells him who she is. If Selene wasn't Lanfear, then why did Lanfear appear as Selene?<br /><br />I'm sure there is a clearer way of saying that, but who cares.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-16 03:29:28
subject: <b>Re: Shooganooga</b>
body:
Repeating what I said earlier, Selene is the illusion that Lanfear always wears. It is a younger version of herself, that is all. All the Forsaken know this is her permanent disguise, as she even wears it to their meetings.<br /><br />The name Selene comes from Greek mythology and she was the &quot;Moon Goddess.&quot; Lanfear tells us this is a name she sometimes uses, so we can assume the other Forsaken know this, as well. (She wears the moon and stars ornaments a lot, too, so I don't think this is a big jump in assumptions.) <br /><br />When Lanfear comes to Rand in the Stone, she is wearing her disguise, and drops it so Rand can see what she really looks like. When he meets her in the hallway a little later, she is back to her younger version of herself. As I said, this is how she always appears, so it's not some secret identity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-08 17:13:23
subject: <b>Err0r!</b>
body:
With this whole &quot;chapter icons&quot; thing, you just poked a glaring hole in one of your own theories.  The chapter where the fake Else appears to the girls has been bestowed the Lanfear icon.  By your logic, this chapter has to contain the &quot;real&quot; Lanfear.  Yet you say the fake Else is, once again, Mesaana, impersonating Lanfear.  What's up?  If this is Mesaana, then why can't every appearance of Lanfear REALLY be Mesaana?  If this is actually Lanfear, that means it was LANFEAR and not Mesaana who sent the Wundergirls haring off to Tear.  Which?  Which?<br /><br />Seriously, though, your theory is well-thought out and very convincing.  However, I'm not so sure that Jordan would go to all this trouble to convince us that Selene was Lanfear, only to reveal later that it's ACTUALLY MESAANA!  MUAH HAHAHAHAHA!  RJ STRIKES AGAIN!  What would this do for the plot?  The past books are, for the most part, the past books, and Lanfear's presence in TGH and TDR only shows that she's the wildcard among the Forsaken, wanting Rand to gain power rather than go along with Ishy's wish that he'll remain a scared little boy, easily turned to the Shadow.


created: 2004-10-13 23:13:28
subject: <b>Re: AgingComputer</b>
body:
What are you trying to imply? I stated, (maybe not too clearly), that RJ had helped confuse the identity issue by the non, or mis-use of icons. I did not say that the icon proved that it was one or the other. <br /><br />To figure out which is which, you need to look deeper than the icons. I hope that is clear enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-14 15:34:21
subject: <b>Please answer this one, or I will definately wote &quot;No&quot;</b>
body:
When the real Lanfear arrive in the stone of Tear, why does she not find it strange that Rand recognises her? If this was actually their first encounter, it would seem strange that Rand knew the Selene name and appearance. It doesn't make any sense... Or... Was the stone of tear- encounter not Rands' first meeting with &quot;real-Lanfear&quot;?<br /><br />I am confused... <br /><br />PS. If this theory proves to be right, I will bow deep and kiss the ground beneath your feet and hail you as the greatest theorist(a word?) of our time!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-25 16:28:58
subject: <b>For LTT</b>
body:
Lanfear never grasps that Rand is Not LTT. Why wouldn't her former lover recoginise her?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 11:16:21
subject: <b>Why Disguise?</b>
body:
I can't quite see, why Mesaana should disguise herself as Lanfear. There is no convincing reason, why Lanfear should have been freed later than Mesaana.<br />And after all, if Lanfear was still bound, how should Mesaana know beforehand witch disguise Lanfear would chose, after being freed.<br />Lanfear's surprise that Mat thought her familiar would be perfectly well explained by the fact, that cumpulsion was used to make him forget her persence in the dungeon - and then he still remembers her.<br />I think, Lanfear herself freed Fain - and wrote her own dark prophecy.


created: 2004-03-09 12:03:10
subject: <b>a couple questions</b>
body:
This is a cool theory, but I am not convinced.  I thought that  the act of physically touching someone broke through the maks of mirrors disguise.  Is this not true?  <br /><br />I think you might be right about the compulsion, but I am a little leary of this also.  Still, Rand feels cold when she touches, this could indicate that he is noticing Selene channel, only he does not know it yet.<br /><br />The other big problem I have with this is that you are comparing things in the first couple books with ones in the later books.  I love this story, but there are inconsistancies between the early books and the later.  Perhaps Selene is simply using her charms on a country hick boy.  Rand is still a confused youth at this point, not a man.  Throw in all the added pressure of channeling and being the Dragon Reborn, he is seriously messed up.  It would not be hard to confuse him and guide him in this situation.<br /><br />Having said all that, you wote a great theory and proposed a new idea that contridicts conventional wisdom.  I will wait a few days before I vote on it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 12:49:09
subject: <b>nice theory, if too long</b>
body:
i am definately looking this up in re-reads, i had noticed the part about lanfear marking him and &quot;forgetting&quot; it, and the statue outside of cairhien.<br /><br />those two, and the oddities make me beleive either lanfear is nuts, or there were two selene's.<br /><br />columbo! green gaidin! taskmaster jack! whoever!, please rip this apart and figure out the truth, for my / our sanity!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:22:43
subject: <b>Seems a bit elaborate, considering.</b>
body:
Mesaana's a wannabe-researcher, which would mean that she would have a strong incentive to check out the prophecies... ok, agreed. <br /><br />BUT it still seems a very elaborate way of doing it. And all for what? So that Rand could go &quot;Yeah, I'm the one you're up against,&quot; which might have happened anyway, seeing as how it was prophecied that he would?<br /><br />I'm not sure that I <i>want</i> to believe this.<br /><br />But oh Light, I just might.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:51:06
subject: <b>bravo!!!!!!</b>
body:
wow. that was something else. i agree with you on most of it. i might let it sit and come back with a critique or more helpful comments, but i wanted to say, good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 15:00:06
subject: <b>Hmmmmm......</b>
body:
Well, now that my eyes are bleeding... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good theory. It was certainly ambitious (TO THE MAX! lol), and it may be the most well thought out theory I've read in a LONG time. <br /><br />That said, I guess I have a couple of problems with it, though you may have already addressed them in the theory. If so, please just quote and don't waste a lot of time responding.<br /><br />1) Why would Messanna pose as Lanfear? It just doesn't make sense to me. There seems to be no point to it, and since we haven't seen Selene since, it doesn't seem like anything will revolve around it. <br /><br />One thing, though: this certainly fits well with Messana being in the WT, doesn't it? She comes with the AS to Fal Dara where she freed Fain, and then posed as Else in tDR.<br /><br />2) Why would she free Fain if the mission is to take the Horn north? His only purpose seems to be the ability to find Rand, so why bring him along for the ride? Not to convince the Seanchan at TH: Semi is already working with them.<br /><br />3) Is Messana being Selene really significant to the story? Would she have had time to do all of that while establishing herself at the WT?<br /><br />4) I don't see Mess., the teacher, doing what Selene does, which is basically flirt her arse off with Rand. Also, Selene says things like &quot;You were always... [stubborn],&quot; which shows me that this Selene was once very close with LTT, which Messanna was not.<br /><br /><br /><br />Hmmm..... Maybe you can sway me with these answers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Great work, btw. This thing is a behemoth!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:06:56
subject: <b>Excellent.</b>
body:
I'm convinced. The bit about the mark on Rand's forehead is the kicker - that, definitively, says that Lanfear was not Selene. Once you accept that fact (and you have to, now that it's been pointed out), the rest falls into place. Mesaana makes more sense as Selene than anyone else.<br /><br />Great theory.<br /><br />As to GG's questions, one might be that she disguised herself as Lanfear simply because it was the most beautiful form she was familiar with. She needed to be stunningly beautiful, after all. And she freed Fain because she didn't want the Horn to go north as per orders; she wanted it to go south, so that Rand would go south, so that she could be with him and attempt to manipulate him. If the Horn had gone north she probably couldn't have done that. As to the flirting thing, I have no idea. Maybe RJ has a thing for sexy teachers as well? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:37:36
subject: <b>Is this your masterpeice?</b>
body:
That was a LONG theory. But worth it. Very good! I can see why you would need to make 5 theories to prove that point. There was alot of clues that needed mentioning/explaining and making it into 5 different parts is a good way to go about it.<br /><br />I was thinking perhaps that the scrolling on the walls IS actually dark prophecy, and Messy just used it to her advantage. Or perhaps she knew this prophecy needed to come true and she just helped it along while gaining her own advantage.<br /><br />If your correct (i think you probably are), I'm wondering what Messy had planned for Lanfear.<br />if she didn't have anything planned for Lanfear..... <br /><br />then I'm guessing she's just covering her tracks REAL well so incase other forsaken are talkin to the 3 boys... nothing points to her plans (this is probably most likely).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:40:28
subject: <b>After all that, I`m still convinced.</b>
body:
Until something comes along to change it. The mark was it, in CoT.<br /><br />Accepting Mesaana as Selene makes all the action hang together. There are no items, where I can say &quot;but...)<br /><br />Except the icons on those 2 chapters?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 16:40:46
subject: <b>Because...</b>
body:
She would free Fain, and direct him and write the prophecy because she allies herself with Ishy's rivals.  First Be'lal, and then Demandred.  We are told that she allied herself with Demandred and Semi in the AOL, so perhaps Demandred was not yet available. <br /><br />And, she was insinuating herself with the Black Ajah.  They were Ishy's creation, and she did not completely take the helm until he was gone, in TSR when she turned his subtle plans into the breaking of the tower, by which time Demandred had insinuated his trio into a number of Ishy's plans, and turned them to the chaos he prefers over Ishy's chess moves. <br /><br />In any case, if you were going to get in Ishy's way, wouldn't you rather have him PO'd at Lanfear?<br />


created: 2004-03-09 16:43:06
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
This is one well thought out theory.  How long did it take you to come up with all this?  This does explain some of the inconsistencies that I noticed years ago when first reading the books and that I subsequently shrugged off in rereadings.  The one thing then that I question is about the Selene identity that Lanfear has.  Was this identity and name one that she had used in the AoL?  How could Mesaana know to take that particular form?  But other than that, I'm completely sold.  Great job!


created: 2004-03-09 16:50:21
subject: <b>to Arirlind:</b>
body:
to Arilind: Why would Messana chose that disguise without knowing that lanfear would actually use it herself? well, she knew lanfear would use it. as selene is described, she just seems a younger version of lanfear - a younger mierin, actually. (note how elayne in always described as beautiful and than in comparison to her mother there is suddenly room for improvement with age, until she kinda looks like Morgase.) probably that's what she looked like when she met LTT and they fell in love and Mesaana knew Lanfear would try and revive their love. Easy, that part<br /><br />as the the theory: I'm impressed! Wouldn't have that of that even though selene always seemed a bit odd to me compared to the read lanfear and her hysteria. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />well done!


created: 2004-03-09 17:03:19
subject: <b>Excellently done!</b>
body:
The theories hang together very well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 17:11:50
subject: <b>wow again</b>
body:
great theory. this must have taken forever to perfect... but i think its perfect now.  i agree with what someone said above, the marking of the forehead is what maid me let go of my doubts about it.<br />i would like to know WHY she went through all that trouble tho... i believe she did, but there must be a reason. get to work! *just kidding*<br />great job. *applause*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Are you seduced?<br /><br />Stop bothering my flatworm!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 18:32:05
subject: <b>Great theory but,</b>
body:
I'm not completely sold on it.  I'll admit that I'm a difficult person to convince on most subjects without concrete evidence, but this is what I'm thinking.<br /><br />When Lanfear comments on Rand being marked I also think of the wound in his side.  I don't know if she has been with him since he received it at the end of TGH, but the wound could be considered a mark put on Rand by Ishamael.<br /><br />Your usage of the recent question posed to RJ about the symbol Lanfear was drawing on Rand's head I feel is weak.  RJ said she was doing just what it looked like.  Well it looked like she was drawing the Dragon Fang, or the half of the symbol of the ancient AS that is associated with men.  It didn't look like she was necessarily using the One Power on him.  Another example of RJ answering a question with another vague question.  I took it to mean that it was nothing special.<br /><br />For all your hard effort to convince us that some of Selene's activities make more sense for her being Messana, I still think that other portions of what she was doing smack of Lanfear's agenda.  <br /><br />Finally, while I can believe that Selene was possibly the person that released Fain, I still think it's possible that Alviarin did it following orders she received from someone, most likely Ishamael.  I guess I believe it was possible for any number of people, but there isn't enough evidence to convict anyone.<br /><br />Once again though, great theory.  I'll be looking for further clues for this in the future.


created: 2004-03-09 23:11:26
subject: <b>scene with Min</b>
body:
I must say, I was never too shocked by the discrepancy between Lanfear's reaction to Karede's story about Aviendha, and her seeming indifference towards Min in TGH.  Basically, Karede tells her that Rand and Aviendha have a passionate, well-publicized love affair.  With Min, Rand is completely unconscious, on the brink of death from having fought Ishamael, and Min is really doing nothing more than keeping him warm.  <br />So, with Aviendha, there is something very clear of which to be jealous, whereas with Min, in that scene, there's no real threat.  Min is applying battlefield first aid shock treatment.  Rand is almost dead, he can't betray Lanfear in his current condition, so there's nothing to get hysterical about.<br /><br />Not that I disagree so much with the theory, it's fanatastic to read something that makes me re-evaluate forgone conclusions.  But the hysteria discrepancy just doesn't work.  It could still be Mesaana in the Min scene, but not BECAUSE she's not hysterical.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 03:17:23
subject: <b>To Fred:</b>
body:
Selene put the mark on Rand's forehead after he received the wound from Ba'alzamon in TGH. Also, it is mentioned that Lanfear, in TSR, looks at Rand's face when she mentions a mark. It is quite certainly the mark that Selene put on him that she is referring to. Selene and Lanfear have to be different people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 04:39:48
subject: <b>Mesaana's disguise</b>
body:
First, I think it is very apparent that Selene was Mesaana at the very least through out TGH.<br />Never the less, several people have raised the question, how Mesaana would know Lanfear's disguise? And, Why would Mesaana disguise herself as Lanfear at all? There are three good points that would allow Mesaana to know this.<br /><br />-Lanfear if nothing else seems to be very predictable; she wants only two things, power, and LTT. She is a creature of habit, with very little sign of change.<br />-The said that the wheel had passed her by. Basically my interpretation of this is that she was in a time machine (from her perspective), one minute she is in the AoL and the next she is in Rand land. So what ever she was like in the AoL would be the same in the present (i.e. her preferred disguise).<br />-It is safe to assume that Mesaana met Lanfear in the AoL. There for she knows Lanfear&#8217;s predictable habits, as most of the other Forsaken seem to know as well.<br /><br />The fact that Lanfear shows up in the Selene disguise right after she is freed and when she shows herself to Rand, gives us a clear picture of her habitual behavior. <br /><br />As for the REASON for choosing Lanfear&#8217;s disguise. Mesaana could have chosen ANY beautiful woman as her disguise if it was solely for Rand's benefit, but she choose Lanfear. Why? The only people who would recognize Lanfear is, of course, the other Forsaken, so she had to of chosen it for their benefit. She also went to great lengths to make sure everyone knew Lanfear was out and about, which is in contrast with the usual sneakiness of the Forsaken. It is well known among the Forsaken that Lanfear was in love with LTT and that she claimed him as her's. It is also well known that all of the forsaken are competing against one and other for the DO's favor. So hatches a brilliant plan to do just that then disguises herself as Lanfear to keep other forsaken from interfering with her plans. What better way to do that then to have the other Forsaken think the possessive, insanely jealous, and powerful Lanfear has already claimed LTT/Rand (which is what everyone expects her to do anyway).<br /><br />Of course, this is all just speculation but I feel it is probably close to the truth. I feel the key to understanding anyone is to understand their motivation. In this case, I can see no other motivation for Mesaana to use Lanfear&#8217;s disguise.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-10 04:51:47
subject: <b>The Mark Brings It All Together</b>
body:
Without Light's theory here, we would be left with no realistic way to explain Lanfear's comment about a mark in the Stone. As for all the seeming &quot;evidence&quot; pointing to Selene being Lanfear, none of it is unexplainable with the Mesaana theory. In faact, I think it all makes more sense with Mesaana. Light does a good job of showing how the Selene persona was just a piece of a crazy Forsaken plot. It makes sense that Mesaana would try to take advantage of Lanfear not being released yet. Perhaps she was hoping that Rand was enough LTT to fall in love with her at the sight of Lanfear, making him an easy piece to move on the chess board (what was the name of that game Moridin was playing?).<br /><br />I admit, it's not 100% airtight, but far more than any previous notions we've had about Selene. The only reason people will have (somewhat) reasonable disagreements with this theory is that it was SOOOO obvious that Selene was Lanfear. And everything fit so well. Nothing irked us about that idea.......at least not until Light brought the idea of the Mark to our attention.<br /><br />To the Light!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 05:06:21
subject: <b>Some resposes:</b>
body:
To Arilind: Opportunity. With Lanfear not yet on the scene, she has a chance to get close to, and manipulate Rand. She knows that Lanfear will eventually show up, and when she does, she'll try to attach herself to him, and that opportunity will be gone. At the very least, her manipulations get him to proclaim himself, and she makes efforts to get him to channel, something he must learn to be of use to either side.<br /><br />As to why use the Selene disguise, why not? She is very beautiful, and that has a big effect on Rand all by itself. Mesaana, as we learn in the BWB, is described as plain. Why show her own face and take the chance that those LTT memories might surface and have Rand suddenly recognize her as a Forsaken? So it only makes sense to disguise herself, and if she somehow messes things up, Lanfear ends up taking the blame. <br /><br />In fact, if you will look at the encounter in the Stone, we already see that Rand says she doesn't affect him as she once had. If you will look at the times Rand sees her after that, she affects him less and less, and at one point he says something like he could hardly stand the sight of her, or that she repulses him.<br /><br />I think if you look closely, you will see that there are some major differences between Selene and Lanfear. Selene offers fame and glory as enticements, while Lanfear is only after power, and those are not the same thing by any means. Selene tells the boys to follow their destiny, while Lanfear says he doesn't have to fulfill the prophecies. And Selene actually helped him achieve at least one of those prophecies. <br /><br />So why did RJ do it? Because he is a clever writer and likes to make us believe something while giving us the clues to see the truth of it. He likes to tease us and make us figure things out, if we are smart enough to piece together the evidence.<br /><br />To bme: I guess you are referring to the scene of Shadar Haran marking Alviarin? I believe that RJ put that in there to help uncover this mystery. It's been going on since the second book and no one has even suspected it before now. However, we have heard of marking people before. In the chapter, &quot;Daughter of the Night&quot; before Lanfear appears, Perrin is witness to Ishamael talking to some Dark Friends, he says this:<br /> &quot;You have been given tasks,&quot; Ba'alzamon said. &quot;Some of these tasks you have carried out. At others, you have failed.&quot; Now and again his eyes and mouth vanished in flame again, and the mirrors flashed with reflected fire. &quot;Those who have been marked for death must die. Those who have been marked for taking must bow to me. To fail the Great Lordof the Dark cannot be forgiven.&quot; TDR, chapter 36.<br /><br />So we have already heard of being marked by the Shadow, and at least one is a mark of possession. <br /><br />As for the disguise being broken, this is what Sammy tells us in LoC chapter 6:<br /> &quot;One touch would prove the angular contours of that face were not hers-only the most subtle use of Illusion could pass that test.&quot; <br /> So yes, touching her face would have shown Rand that it was a disguise. However, he never touches her face, only her hands to help her up, and she touches his arms, but that is it. They never kiss, although Rand thinks about it often. Besides which, the compulsion she was using would have clouded him from suspecting anything, anyway. Look at the way Graendal's servants look at her in worship, seeing what she wants them to see.<br /><br />To Mussels: Glad to see you here. Bring it on. If it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, it isn't a good theory anyway! I said I won't apologize for the length, and I won't. There was just too much that had to be shown to have a chance for this theory being possible. Besides, RJ isn't due out with another book for a year, so didn't you like the chance to read something long and involved pertaining to WoT?<br /><br />To Danae: I thought you would enjoy it. Is this gonna make you do a reread?<br /><br />To GG: I covered number one in my reply to Arilind, I think. Never underestimate the power of a beautiful face. It puts Rand, Hurin and Loial off balance right off the get-go, and makes them unleary of her as well. She talks to all three of them individually and we see how Rand opens up to her and tells her all kinds of possibly useful information that she might not have previously known. <br /><br />As for Fain, his soul purpose seems to be to carry the Horn in the direction she wants it to go. She might have also knew that Rand might choose to follow the dagger instead of the Horn. (Which Rand is actually more interested in getting back for Mat. Putting Fain together with both could have been insurance.) And if you look at the section where Fain gets to Falme, you will see that he knows nothing about the Seanchan except what he has learned after getting there. It was just where Mesaana wanted Rand to go to fulfill the Prophecy, as I see it. And she interupted Ishy's plans for the Horn going north in the process. (Remember in tEotW that's where he was going to have the Trollocs and Fade take the boys. Even Ishy probably knew about the Prophecy, but maybe not when it was going to happen. At the least, taking the Horn to SG takes it away from the Light.)<br /><br />As for her establishing herself at the WT, I don't think that happens until later. And as to significance to the story? I think it establishes a pattern of the way the Forsaken plot and disguise themselves. They go their own way and try to out-do each other, just like the DO endorses. It also shows us what kind of manipulator Mesaana is. She has been involved in the plot at the Stone as well as Rand's kidnapping. And it shows us what RJ is capable of doing right in front of our eyes.<br /><br />Selene showed her knowledge of Portal Stones and mirror worlds. Quite scholarly IMO. She even knew the name of the book and had knowledge of Prophecies as well. She definitely had a fascination with the Horn, another thing a teacher might have for old things of legends. And you must remember she was playing a role. If she was too out of character, we would have suspected this sooner, and Rand would have, too, when Lanfear really shows up. To this day, I will guarantee you he hasn't ever suspected the ploy. If he had known it, he might have said something that would have gotten Lanfear looking to see who had impersonated her, and she would know it had to be a female Forsaken to pull it off. Not playing the role all out, ends up with Lanfear seeking revenge, which I'm sure Mesaana knew the risks of.<br /><br />To Fred Gaidin: Of course Mesaana was there right after the battle to put the mark on his forehead. If that was Lanfear and the mark you think Ishy put in his side is what she's talking about, she would have seen it in Falme, on the very day it happened, and it wouldn't have surprised her to see it in Tear. Besides, she looks directly at his face when she says it, not his side. Look above at my reply to bme about the use of marks that is mentioned by Ishy as well. It is a mark of possession, not just a wound she is talking about.<br /><br />As for Lanfear's agenda, I see distinct differences in telling someone to follow their destiny, than one that suggests you can side-step fate by not fulfilling the Prophecies. Lanfear says in the Stone that doing so will lead him to Tarmon Gaidon and his death, which she doesn't want. Mesaana does want him dead, as she has shown us several times in her schemes.<br /><br />Alviarin freeing Fain is an idea I've never seen before. She is barely mentioned at all in Fal Dara. OTOH, I believe that I have given a legitimate reason why it was someone else.<br /><br />To everyone else that I didn't mention, thank you for your support. This was indeed a real project that I labored on for a couple of months to get it right. I hope that it was at least entertaining and enlightening to all that bothered to read it. I would also like to thank linda_sedai for proofreading my work and giving some insight as to how it might be improved. It would have been a far lesser theory without her help.<br /><br />Thank you, Linda!<br /><br />John <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 06:16:52
subject: <b>Fascinating...</b>
body:
you've got me nearly convinced, Selene and Lanfear do seem different persons. However, I have a couple of questions: <br /><br />1 I had the impression that Ishy keeps very close tabs on everything that happens in SG, and logically the other Forsaken should do it as well. How could someone think to put the blame on Lanny when everyone who matters knows she was asleep at the moment? <br /><br />2 How do you know it was Mesaana and not another female Forsaken? You've proved to us the extensive use of Compulsion, and the intricacy of the plan. In my mind these all seem more like Graendal, the only female Forsaken who would stand a chance against an angry Lanfear when it would come to fighting.


created: 2004-03-10 07:13:48
subject: <b>Re: smallcatherine</b>
body:
I think Mesaana has plenty of motive for using Lanfear as a disguise, and it is simple. Jealousy. Mesaana wanted to be a researcher and was denied while Lanfear was a widely reknown and respected researcher, as well as beautiful. I don't know that fooling the other Forsaken was paramount to her plans or not, but the one it really matters to is Lanfear, and if Mesaana can get the upper hand on Rand while she's not there to interfere, then why not use her face and manipulate him before Lanfear latches on to him. As I stated above, a beautiful face can be very disruptive to a man's common sense and blind him to many things. And why show her own face and take the chance of possibly eventually being recognized? It only makes sense to use a disguise of some sort, and Lanfear is the ideal one to use, IMO.<br /><br />As for why I don't think it was Graendal? I tossed this one around for quite awhile myself. For one, the plot at the Stone points to Mesaana's involvement most of all. For another, Graendal is a master of compulsion, it's her specialty. Yet we see Mesaana keep having to reinforce it, with words, eye contact, as well as touches. The other reason is because Graendal likes her comforts. This has been expressed time and again throughout the story. I don't see her likely to rough it for days, riding on horseback and sleeping on the ground. And, when they made it to the Nine Rings Inn, &quot;Selene&quot; said she would rather sleep under the stars again, instead of a bed at the inn. It looked too much out of character to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 09:05:52
subject: <b>abcdefghi</b>
body:
selene and lanfear are different people, you've proven that beyond a doubt, the only part of your theory thats being disagreed with is WHO was selene, and in which scenes.<br /><br />perhaps a compilation of all the scenes, with references to the symbol at the start of the chapter, &quot;selene's&quot; state of mind and attitude etc.<br /><br />maybe once its up we can all do a psych analysis of selene's many forms and see whats different.<br /><br />oh yes, her clothing, i noticed that in the waste with the real lanfear, she wears lots of silver things, with a narrow silver belt around her waste.<br />did messelene wear anything similar?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 10:10:15
subject: <b>Impressive, as usual</b>
body:
Awesome theory.  I've always enjoyed reading your theories and your blackboard comments, Light in the Night.  Well thought out, well written, and some really unique ideas.  As always I look forward to reading more.<br /><br />I agree with most of your points.  The mark at the end of TGH and Lanfear's reaction to seeing Min in bed (naked, as well, iirc)with Rand are both powerful pieces of evidence.  I love to quibble over details, however.  <br /><br />First, I don't think any of the Forsaken are willing to play second fiddle, as you say, to anyone else. Mesaana is trying to set her self up to be Nae'blis, and bring down her rivals.  This would explain her motivation for going against Ishmael, and disguising herself as Lanfear.<br /><br />I still have doubts about her role in Fain's escape, but those are slowly fading.  I'll have to read some passages from TGH, and see if I can come down firmly on one side or the othe of that one.<br /><br />Lastly, RJ's comment in the weekly interview section is so vague as to be useless.  IMO, throwing out something that weak to support your argument, when you've already used much stronger evidence, is unnecessary.<br /><br />Anyway, incredible job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 12:50:28
subject: <b>Superb theory!</b>
body:
I read everything quite quickly and have to say that I never noticed some of the things you pointed out. <br /><br />As others I found especially convincing what you wrote on the mark. <br />It really seems that Mesaana was at least the Selene in TGH who finally marked Rand. <br /><br />The only problem is that one could say that RJ indirectly admits that it was Lanfear with his answer to the mark question:<br /><br />Q: &quot;What did Lanfear do to Rand at the end of The Great Hunt, when she drew the Dragon's Fang on his forehead?&quot;<br />A: &quot;She [i.e. Lanfear since he refers to the question of course] drew the Dragon Fang on his forehead. For exactly the reason you would think.&quot;<br /><br /><br />Anyway, if that means that Mesaana freed Fain is more doubtful in my opinion. <br /><br />The scene is in TGH, ch.5:<br />'&quot;Pitch-blackness covered the dungeons whatever the hour, unless someone brought in a lantern, but Padan Fain sat on the edge of his cot, staring into the dark with a smile on his face. He could hear the other two prisoners grumbling in their sleep, muttering in nightmares. Padan Fain was waiting for something, something he had been awaiting for a long time. For too long. But not much longer.<br />The door to the outer guardroom opened, spilling in a flood of light, darkly outlining a figure in the doorway.<br />Fain stood. &quot;You! Not who I expected.&quot; He stretched with a casualness he did not feel. Blood raced through his veins; he thought he could leap over the keep if he tried. &quot;Surprises for everyone, eh? Well, come on. The night's getting old, and I want some sleep sometime.&quot;<br />As a lamp came into the cell chamber, Fain raised his head, grinning at something, unseen yet felt, beyond the dungeon's stone ceiling. &quot;It isn't over yet,&quot; he whispered. &quot;The battle's never over.&quot;<br /><br />I see no reason why Mesaana should keep secret that she is a Forsaken, especially if she wants to convince Fain of her plans.<br /><br />But what Fain says to his deliverer in TGH, ch.5, who he apparently knows, seems not like it is said to a (female) Forsaken. <br />Especially the &quot;come on&quot;, &quot;I want to sleep sometime&quot; seems as if it's said to someone below Fain in the Shadow's hierachy and surely not to a Forsaken above him. <br /><br />Fain is a very high DF and thus doesn't have to be respectful to other DF (except probably BA since they are extremely powerful because of the OP). I think Fain doesn't behave respectful in this scene.<br /><br />Also note that Fain knew that he will be freed by the Shadow (maybe due dreams) but not expected this particular person.<br /><br />Finally the deliverer uses a lamp, not the OP as a Forsaken would certainly do, which indicates that it was a &quot;normal&quot; DF. <br /><br />In this case it was probably Ingtar, who apparently was at Ishy's DF meeting in TGH, prologue. <br /><br />Fain was surprised since he never thought Ingtar was a DF. After all they met when Fain was captured in Fal Dara in EotW.<br /><br />Therefore I believe Ishy decided to free Fain (who still was a useful tool), so that he comes to SG. <br />He gave Ingtar the order to free him while the stealing of the Horn which was the main purpose of the attack. <br /><br />Against Ishy's expectations Fain (who was already more powerful because of the merging with Mordeth) didn't go to SG with the Horn as his master Ishy wanted but followed his own plans.  <br /><br />That's the reason why Fain was later called the renegade by the Shadow and should be killed.  <br /><br />Maybe Mesaana spied already on Rand in Fal Dara (some people feel &quot;unseen eyes&quot; IIRC). <br />Then she took the opportunity due Fain's plan to meet Rand at Toman Head (as he wrote on the cell door). <br /><br />Mesaana wrote the Dark Prophecies (which in my view Fain also knew as a high DF) after Fain &amp; his deliverer were gone. <br />This should convince the AS that Rand has to go to Toman Head or maybe Mesaana had some other reasons. <br />Later she joined Rand. <br /><br />But I doubt that Mesaana &amp; Fain had contact, and that Mesaana was the one who freed Fain. <br /><br /><br />Two other points.<br /><br />At &quot;Thus Spake the Creator&quot; I found two interesting answers by RJ.<br /><br />First: <br />&quot;Q: Was Else always Lanfear?  <br />A: No. Else did exist as a separate human but was played by Lanfear after Else was expelled.&quot;<br /><br />That clearly speaks against your view that Mesaana played Else and later changed into Selene. <br />At least this Else/Selene was Lanfear (if the Q&amp;A is correct, but normally the site is accurate). <br /><br />Therefore it raises doubts with some of your remarks. <br /><br />The second is: <br /><br />Q: In the Great Hunt, was Lanfear present to inspire the Dark Prophecy about &quot;Daughter of the Night, she walks again?&quot; <br />A: Of course she was about... <br />Q: But was she present in Fal Dara? <br />A: [after a weighing look deciding not to answer] Read And Find Out.<br /><br />In my view RJ indicates here that Lanfear was already free in TGH, although she maybe wasn't in Fal Dara.<br /><br /><br />All in all, a really great theory, although I don't agree with everything at the moment.


created: 2004-03-10 12:52:21
subject: <b>excellent.</b>
body:
Overall, I love the theories and the way conventional thought about the series is challanged. Like I said, you've got me up to about a 50/50 belief for Selene as Lanfear vs. Mesaana.<br /><br />I can't wait for the follow-up theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 13:09:57
subject: <b>Mad Props!!</b>
body:
Kudos for uncovering such a byzantine scheme! IF Selene was indeed originally Mesaana. I was often puzzled by how Lanfear could wander the White Tower without incurring the territorial ire of Mesaana. <br /><br />If Mesaana could indeed pierce the eavesdropping ward without being detected, wouldn't she be aware of the Tower hunt for the Black Ajah? Her orders to Alviarin indicate she still did not know about the witch-hunt (pun intended).<br /><br />So many attempts were made on Rand's life and failed. His ta'veren-ness is credited for that. Could it be that the mark that Selene put on his forehead was also an additional protection against harm from the Shadow? Shaidar Haran said that because Alviarin has been marked as property of the Dark One, no one in the Shadow can harm her without the permission of the Dark One. Personally, I think that the mark is part of choosing who would be Dreadlords, but that's an entirely other theory.<br /><br />Again, kudos for penetrating the layered plots of RJ!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 18:40:06
subject: <b>Some more responses</b>
body:
To Diomedes: Yes, at first I thought that RJ's reply about what she did to Rand was vague, seeing as how a lot of people might see it as Healing. But then I remembered what happened in to Egwene on the way to Tear. When the girls were being held captive waiting for the Fades to show up, Nynaeve Heals Elayne. But, if you also recall, Egwene was touching Elaybe when Nynaeve did it, and she felt the wash of Healing through Elayne as well. <br /><br />We see no such reaction from Min to indicate that a Healing weave was used. That was why I felt the answer was not so vague as we might think at first glance. We have seen the reaction to Healing enough times to know that it is like being dunked in cold water, and one can't help but gasp.<br /><br />To Etzel: I knew this was going to be a point of contention for a lot of people because it is one of the &quot;big&quot; mysteries of the series. While Fain does appear to be talking down to whoever is freeing him, we have already witnessed him talking to Lord Agelmar as an equal earlier in tEotW. He seems to change personas at the flip of a switch. <br /><br />The problem I have with Ingtar being involved in Fain's escape is two-fold: The biggest one is Rand passes him upstairs outside the women's apartments when the alarm is first sounded, and Rand is running for the dungeon. I don't know how many flights of stairs are involved, but that means he would have to go down, then up, and then back down again where we see him last in the dungeon. The timing just doesn't look right to me. The other point is that he admits to Rand that he let in the Gray Man that took the shot at him in the courtyard. If he was confessing his guilt to that, then why not come completely clean and own up to freeing Fain as well? Ingtar wasn't sure if the arrow was meant for Rand or the Amyrlin Seat, who, in the eyes of Shienarans is highly revered. Attempted murder of her would surely be a more serious offense than freeing a Dark Friend. So why not confess to a lesser crime?<br /><br />I will admit that what you say about Fain's reaction and words are with merit. The way I see that it might have happened is Mat and Egwene were the ones that might have actually opened that door. Selene and the Shadowspawn with her probably happened upon them at just about that time. Certainly Mat and Egwene wouldn't have entered the front chamber if Trollocs were already in there. And we can be pretty sure there were Trollocs in there from the carnage and the writing on the wall. Witnessing a beautiful woman commanding Trollocs and using the One Power would most likely be enough to make the other two prisoners go crazy.<br /><br />As for the interviews, I was unaware of them. But, it is just word-play on RJ's part. We see the woman about for most of TGH as Selene, then she tells us her name is Lanfear at the end of TGH, so it's only logical to call her by that name, and think of her as Lanfear for the whole book. The same with the Q &amp; A on Tor's website. She has already told Min her name is Lanfear, and at that point there is no longer any reason to call her anything else, even in TDR when we see her as Else. (You don't think RJ could call her by anything else in interviews without giving away his secret, do you?) <br /><br />Plus, the part where he hesitates and then says RAFO surely should raise some question marks. He was definitely hiding something, don't you think?<br /><br />I have to go now, but I will be back later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 20:06:17
subject: <b>For and against</b>
body:
Why would Mesaana impersonate Lanfear specifically?<br /><br />That's easy.  Lanfear was a highly successful researcher in the AoL, Mesaana was a failed researcher.  I know several researchers in real life, this is the sort of thing that breads a terrible amount of jealously in such people, particularly women.  Especialy if the successful reseacher is also stunningly beautiful.  Adopting Lanfear's image would be a natural extention of the jealousy.<br /><br />Also, Mesaana may have hopes that Lanfear's visage would trigger sumpathetic feelings from the part of Rand that is LTT reborn, making Rand more pliable.<br /><br /><br />Why would Mesaana, more than anyone else besides Ishamael, decide to try to directly influence the boys' actions?<br /><br />She has a wealth of experience dating from the AoL of imfluencing the inds of younge people.  It clearly is her area of expertise.<br /><br /><br />How can we explain away Fain's arrogance towards his deliverer while still having that deliverer be Mesaana?<br /><br />Alviarin is also in Fal Dara, no?  Perhaps Mesaana is in disguise with this crew and is already keeping tabs on Alvi as part of the White Tower crew.  If she rescued Fain in this disguise, he would not have recognized her as Forsaken.  Ok, this is kind of weak, I admit.<br /><br /><br />Why would Mesaana want Fain to lead Rand to Toman Head?<br /><br />If Mesaana and Semirhage are already allied at this early stage, and if Semirhage was aleady in place as Anath, Mesaana would know about the Haliene.  She could have reasoned at being present at the Seanchan invasion on Toman Head would force Rand to blow the Horn and assume the path towards glory (of course, Mat foils this by blowing the Horn himself).<br /><br /><br />What's the biggest problem I see with all this?<br /><br />Page 63 of the BWB: &quot;...Upon awakening to the world, (Lanfear) adopted the pseudonym Selene and sought out Rand al'Thor...&quot;<br /><br />This seems to be pretty definitive evidence that Lanfear did appear at least once as Selene.


created: 2004-03-10 21:01:36
subject: <b>To Avicularia:</b>
body:
When Lanfear appeared in TSR, she was at first in the guise of Selene, as Light in the Night's quotes indicated. She then removed the weave to show her true self.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 21:57:53
subject: <b>The mark?</b>
body:
Ok-- here is a question... perhaps I am a bit slower than all you theory blackboard Gods.<br /><br />Why can Lanfear see this mark that Mesanna supposedly placed?<br /><br />Why could Lanfear see it and no other Aes Sedai see it?<br /><br />That doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br />It seems more logical that the mark was done with an inverted weave that only someone like Lanfear could see.<br /><br />The only other explanation is that Lanfear has a rare talent to see inverted weaves.<br /><br />Can someone explain this to such a slow person as myself?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 22:28:58
subject: <b>With Part 5 you have gotten me to vote...........</b>
body:
<b>YES</b> ... Know I'll go read the other's comments...and maybe I can then make a few worthwhile comments of my own...or not...The reasoning and research behind this one have left my mind a bit ...well...pole-axed ...But in a good way.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 00:32:22
subject: <b>One more comment....</b>
body:
If Mat had seen Selene before, maybe it was in the dreamworld?<br /><br />Lanfear is quite notorious for entering the dream and spying.<br /><br />It is kind of odd that both Messy and Lansmear would be in the tower at once, but haven't several male forsaken also been involved with the Black Tower-- (Demandred, Moridin, Aginor)<br /><br />I don't see any direct proof yet, but the whole thing is pretty good candy.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 01:42:47
subject: <b>To Light in the Night</b>
body:
A very well thought out and researched theory as usual.  This one is pobably my favorite.  Most theories i see i have already considered but i must admit that this one caught me completely off guard.  Thank you for the quality WOT time.  I didn't think i would have anything good to read for awhile but now i am inspired to do another re-read.<br /><br />P.S.  You are my hero.


created: 2004-03-11 02:53:57
subject: <b>Re Fantasmo de Matrimonio (sp?)</b>
body:
To MC: In the chapter &quot;Daughter of the Night&quot; before Perrin sees Lanfear, he first sees Ishy talking to some Dark Friends about being &quot;marked&quot; for death, and others that are &quot;marked&quot; that must bow to him. This is just a guess, but we know that he like using the TP. And, at the time Rand was &quot;marked&quot; there was no prohibition against using the TP, so it could be done that way, with the DO's approval in this special case of the Dragon Reborn. <br /><br />However, Fain is also able to do this: &quot;It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads.&quot; LoC, chapter 28.<br /><br />In Fain's case, we can be pretty sure it was something that accidentally leaked through in his making and distilling process.<br /><br />What we observe that Lanfear sees, may be much the same thing. Shadar Haran's mark was clearly one of ownership, as was the mark Rand received, IMO.(It goes with the name of the chapter anyway.) I would venture to say that this ability is something granted by the DO to his Chosen, so they can pick the Darkfriends out from others when they need them. <br /><br />Shadar Haran said he marked Alviarin as his, too. Perhaps each Chosen has their own mark signifying their ownership, that others can see, but not be able to tell who made the mark? <br /><br />I am only guessing from the clues we have on that. Any ideas from someone else would be welcome to try to explain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 06:01:42
subject: <b>It might be that to see the mark,</b>
body:
you must know what to look for. Maybe there is a way to find the mark if you know about it, and maybe not. Maybe one of the other forsakens have told her about the marking, and maybe Jordan is playing us fools<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 12:51:25
subject: <b>The mark.....</b>
body:
Maybe only those touched by the DO can see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 13:22:10
subject: <b>I am going to start calling 'Light'</b>
body:
The identity theory guy...<br /><br />Look through his past work and you will know what I mean.<br /><br />-- Mil Tesen guy as Demandred<br />-- Graendal spying on Mat as a Domani woman<br />-- Messy as Lanfear<br /><br />This only touches the surface of Light's amazing theory list.  I was looking through it and I was amazed at how many theories he has, how original they are, and how well they are received via voting.<br /><br />Another list of his classics include:<br /><br />--The song of saidin<br /><br />-- Aviendha's time portal gateway<br /><br />-- The mirror world switch<br /><br />These are just my personal favs-- (my attention span is too short to read some of your other ones, it took me 3 days to finish this one up lol)<br /><br />Light sees patterns-- he would make a fantastic analyst in real life.<br /><br />Of course, sometimes we jump at nothing.  I am notorious for this.  I throw out alot of junk theories to get to the nuggets.<br /><br />The main reason I like this theory is this:  Mesaana.<br /><br />IMO, Messy is a worthless character so far.  She has hardly been featured in the books until the last couple.  I have no connection with her as a reader yet.  However, if she turns out to be Selene then I will have a much greater appreciation for her plots and keenness as a forsaken.<br /><br />Every other Forsaken has at least had a little action:  (although Semirhage and Demandred are also pretty mysterious to us)<br /><br />however, we figured out who Semirhage was, and Demmy had his awesome prologue in LoC.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 13:31:32
subject: <b>i must admit...</b>
body:
I wanted to not like the theory because it hurts to completely change your mind on something... but... well... nice job!<br /><br />The biggest problem I have with the overall idea of the theory is time. During tGH, all the Forsaken are still charged with trying to take Rand and get him before he becomes stronger and is a formidable foe... this is BEFORE the DO orders to 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule'... as a result, it makes NO sense that if Mesaana found Rand defenseless as he was, that she wouldn't try to take him out. BUT it makes complete sense that Lanfear does because everything about her indicates that she loves LTT still (remember: &quot;Kill you! I mean to have you, forever.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and would be willing to aid LTT, whereas there's no compelling reason Mesaana didn't pull his brains out his nose with saidar...<br /><br /><br />Additionally, statements in your theory (-ies?) that I did not agree with:<br /><br />(from the 3rd part of your theory):<br />1) You said that Mesaana didn't yet have a full-time persona in the WT at first... as a result, why would other Forsaken stay away? She doesn't have claim to it... Also, during several of the Forsaken meetings, we get the PoV of a Forsaken thinking that Mesaana might be in the WT... but that no one really knows for sure... if Mesaana wanted other Forsaken to stay away, wouldn't she want everyone to be sure that she's there? Additionally, you bring in the quote that Alviarin had met several Forsaken... all of this would indicate that there could be other Forsaken in the WT at some time... and would be much more likely early in the series because Mesaana hasn't had a chance to settle in...<br /><br />2) You use Selene's quote, &quot;Suppose? I did not come to you like this, talk in this way, for suppose, Matrim Cauthon.&quot; and conclude that the phrase 'talk this way' means speaking as Selene... I think that that's not at all what it means... What she is referring to is the things that she was talking about: glory, rewards, etc... she is saying: i did not take the effort to come to your room secretly and speak to you of these things for you to say 'maybe'... that makes more sense...<br /><br />3) You speak of how Lanfear doesn't use compulsion with Rand when she's in her natural form because she wants him to come to her on his own... that's well and good, but IF she was selene, there's no reason she wouldn't use compulsion on him to prod him in the directions she wants before she's ready to reveal her true identity to him... i completely agree with you that she doesn't use compulsion once her identity is truly revealed, but in tGH when someone is in the identity of Selene, both Mesaana or Lanfear would use compulsion to get him moving in the direction she wants...<br /><br />4)Additionally, why would Mesaana mark him at all? All that could do was cause her trouble when Lanfear finally found Rand... It just doesn't make sense... And again, RJ answered the question in a manner that makes it unmistakable that Lanfear did the marking...<br /><br /><br />(for the 4th part of the theory)<br /><br />This is all just wonderfully circumstantial... people reading through the first time aren't going to know it's Lanfear until she reveals herself... so until she does, she's just this mysterious, beautiful woman who seems to have bad intentions, but then again, you also don't really know if she does...<br /><br />More or less, any argument made almost entirely on the chapter icons, is not a very convincing argument at all... if you were looking for ways to make your theory tighter and less fluffy, this is what should have been eliminated...<br /><br /><br />(for the 5th part of the theory)<br />1) Remember that Lanfear is the mistress of tel'aran'rhiod (or however it's spelled) so Mat could easily have 'met' Selene for the first time in TAR...<br /><br />2) It seems very unlikely that Mesaana led Rand to Falme and again afterwards to Tear because she gains nothing from it... Lanfear would want Rand to proclaim himself because she wants him to be powerful, and to come to her when he's powerful and that required him to go to Toman Head where the prophecies say something about his proclaiming to be the DR... It is true Mesaana helped set up the trap in Tear with Bel'al because she admits it, but the plan there was to kill him and take Callandor, not help him get Callandor...<br /><br /><br />Final Thoughts:<br /><br />It seems more likely that Lanfear would use glory and riches, etc. to entice Mat and Perrin and Rand because that is what SHE deems important. She is all about power and glory.<br /><br />While there were lots of things that I disagreed with in the theory, THANK YOU for such a novel idea that utilized lots of research and great reasoning and for sharing it with us. LitN, you always seem to amaze. Well done!


