# w_comment

created: 2002-05-15 02:53:48
subject: <b>History</b>
body:
I think this is sth for the histories: 100% at 65 votes!!<br /><br />But aside from that I think it might be possible to unweave unseeing if you learned it that way. Could be like all the motions with your hands which are only needed if you think they are. I myself never needed those <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> !<br /><br />Dopo


created: 2002-05-15 09:02:44
subject: <b>83 votes before someone dissagreed, or didn't like it</b>
body:
Wow....<br /><br />Feels good to be loved<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 11:13:16
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
When channeling flows, Aes Sedai particularly like to use their hands in actions which resemble what their flows are suppose to accomplish, such as throwing when they throw fireballs. The Wise Women think thats ridiculous, and limiting IMO. So it may be possible to undue a weave without using your hands.<br /><br />But, I would still think you would need to see the weaves. I need to re-read this section. What was she trying to undo? Could she just be using a large quantity of air to be clearing their campsite like a big leaf blower? So that noone, except a channeler, might know they were there?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 21:27:09
subject: <b>Nah.</b>
body:
The boys would have felt that, and they had no idea what was going on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-16 07:54:39
subject: <b>Great stuff</b>
body:
I'm convinced anyway. Nice work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-16 11:14:30
subject: <b>Rand's Unweaving</b>
body:
Not only was Rand not unweaving the shield from within the box, he could never have seen the flows in any way. The only way he can sense women channeling is the tingling. What he was doing was feeling along the shield. It wasn't until some of the women tied off their weaves that he even had a chance of breaking free.<br /><br />I don't think that Moiraine was untying weaves because what weaves were there to untie? Unless she had left some sort of a ward in place, all of her channeling was over and done with by this point. Maybe she stumbled across some way to dissipate residues...<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-16 17:24:39
subject: <b>Possible but I doubt it.</b>
body:
I don't think Moiraine untied the weave while she was in the blight.  First as you mention her eyes were closed, I have trouble seeing someone doing something as delicate and dangerous as untying a weave blind. Besides we already know it is possible to dispel the residue of weaves without untying the weave.  Remember rands dispels his weaves in the fires of heaven right after the battle with Lanfear.


created: 2002-05-18 20:08:34
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
it's possible to dispel a weave, yes, but it's never been possible to dispel the *residue* of the weave, except by untying it.  also, didn't toveine (Logain's &quot;warder&quot; TAS) say that men couldn't channel far because they insisted that they had to see the weaves to make them work?  i thought women didn't need to see the weaves...which would explain how moiraine could untie the weaves with her eyes closed.  seeing isn't necessary.<br /><br />by the way, do the weaves ever get in the way of seeing stuff that's really there?


created: 2002-05-22 13:14:03
subject: <b>To the Author of this theory</b>
body:
I have stumbled on something that might interest the author of this theory as well as any interested parties.  In The Shadow Rising,  Rand holds Lanfear with the power and is convinced that if he ties it off she will be bound until he returns to deal with her.  Lanfear unravels his weave!  What follows is a qoute from the passage in question ( paperback, page 194)<br /><br />Rand- &quot; You can't do that,&quot; he gasped foolishly,  and she smiled.<br /><br />Lanfear- &quot; I do not have to see a flow to unravel it,  If I know what it is and where.&quot;<br /><br />It seems that some from the Age of Legends were able to unravel weaves.  How do you untie shoelaces when you aren't able to see them,  feel them or sense them?  How are you to learn what and where when you shouldn't have the ability to learn what and where?<br /><br />Columbo is on the Case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 15:11:58
subject: <b>a couple of things in response to other posts</b>
body:
Luc and Isam - The exact quote is, &quot;men always thought they had to be able to see to <b>hold</b> their weaves, which meant that they did have to.&quot;  This is only based off of Toveine's experience and as she soon learns Logain does not need to keep sight of her to hold the shield.<br /><br />Columbo - I think Lanfear, either cut the weave or did the same thing that Rand did when he untied the shield.  I truely doubt it's possible to untie someone else's weave.<br /><br />Back to the subject at hand of the original theory.  As other's have mentioned there were no weaves left for Moiraine to untie.  The ward of illusion was already gone.  I think it is more likely that as others have mentioned this is one of the things that RJ was unsure about when he first started writing the series.  After all tEotW was originally a stand alone in case the series went bad.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 17:36:59
subject: <b>Jim</b>
body:
Thanks for your response.  Although how can you just disregard what comes out of Lanfears mouth?  Lanfear says she &quot; unraveled it &quot;.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 16:24:33
subject: <b>ANOTHER WAY OF DISPELLING (maybe)</b>
body:
Maybe.  In FoH, right after the battle with Lanfear, page 895, it says, &quot;Hastily he untied the weave of the dome, dispelling it rather than waiting for it to dissipate...&quot;<br />So he either HASTILY (key word) unwove it, or there is some way of blowing away the weave with out just leaving it there.<br /><br />Of course, maybe it means he just unknotted it, instead of waiting for the knot to unravel by itself.  But I don't think so...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I amuse myself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 01:46:15
subject: <b>Lanfear's unravel</b>
body:
I'm assuming that since Ishy doesn't believe that unweaving is possible, neither does Lanfear. In the 'I do not have to see a flow to unravel it' part in TSR ch10, the previous paragraph says 'The impact of severed flows jolted him, and<br />she dropped lightly to the floor.' So it would seem that this was just merely cutting the weaves. If Lanfear doesn't believe unweaving is possible, there's no reason she would even give it a term.


created: 2002-08-09 05:35:00
subject: <b>Could she have woven inverted residue?</b>
body:
In hindsight, the theory is almost as obvious as gravity (which only took fiftysome centuries for someone to figure out).  Whoever is counting can put me down as a yes.<br /><br />However, if the weaves were already dissipated as Jim pointed out (my copy of tEotW is on loan to a future convert) I might offer one other possibility.<br /><br />We've seen that &quot;live&quot; weaves can be inverted to avoid detection.  Consider an active weave analogous to some kind of energy-consuming activity, like burning a log.  Hiding the activity from observation requires some effort (maybe digging a firepit) but is not very complex.  However, the sum total of evidence, available to the careful and proximate observer, is more widespread (scattered ash and perhaps drifting smoke).  Maybe Moiraine spent all that time tracking down the bits of residue and weaving a tiny inversion to cover each one.<br /><br />It would certainly give me a headache.<br /><br />Jason<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-JasonDrake<br />&quot;Where the far left meets the far right&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 02:54:58
subject: <b>Kudos to Borderlander</b>
body:
Yes, Moiraine is an exceptional woman.  It's things like this that make me wonder why everyone thinks she needs rescuing at all.  She's just been fulfilling the terms of her agreement with the Eelfinn.  I personally believe she has been back since the Path of Daggers.  If I'm wrong, I'll owe everybody toh and a horse-grooming.  If she gets the power augmentation that Lanfear/Cyndane loses, it makes her much stronger in the One Power than she used to be.  Add this to her abilities already mentioned and she's one formidable lady.  I still say that she's posing as Alivia.  Everyone groan at the same time and maybe I'll hear you from wherever y'all are.  Think back to the Battle of the Cleansing/Shadar Logoth and ask yourselves who she is acting like?  Don't pay any attention to RJ's description of her because I think he's blowing smoke at us.  Every time she's described, the fine lines around her eyes get noted.  She's over 400 years old, made damane at 14 or so, etc.  Who are we getting this information from?  She hollers jump and Nynaeve JUMPS!  She went from timid mouse to roaring lioness in a very short time.  Coincidentally, who does she mix it up with except Cyndane, who throws what she considers a nasty web of fire(inverted) that falls apart.  Maybe some of this can be laid at the door of the array of defensive ter'angreal she is wearing, maybe not.  Concerning the Eelfinn, remember Moiraine is the one who said &quot;Name your price first.&quot; or something to that effect.  Take what you want and pay for it.  Once again, I believe she gets short-changed by a lot of people.  She is a very big girl.  Rip away.


created: 2002-08-17 00:13:50
subject: <b>What was Moiraine un-tying?</b>
body:
Borderlander piqued my curiosity, so I had to do a re-read of the section of TEotW from which he quoted.  Then I backed up to the end of the previous chapter and found this bit of information.  Moiraine does what she describes as &quot;a bending, so any eye looking at us sees around us, instead.&quot;  This sounds very much like invisibility, a Talent.  Rand does the same trick.  For someone as weak in the Power as she's supposed to be, she has quite a repertoire of abilities.


created: 2004-04-02 23:05:38
subject: <b>eyes open or not</b>
body:
i seem to remember rand trying to untie weaves of the shield tied to him, he couldn't have seen that of course. Just idle thinking


created: 2005-04-11 22:27:36
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
in response to all of those who say &quot;you have to be able to see the weave to untie it,&quot; i would like to say that that is probably just like all the aes sedai hand movments. they are only necessary because thats how the channeler learned it. i believe seeing the weave to untie it is the same.<br /><br />i really have nothing to back this up except logic, but i think it is clearly stated that moiraine untied the weave. i would like to suggest that she could FEEL the weave, much in the same way that rand was able to feel the shield on him. <br /><br />i would also like to point out that lanfear definitely did not untie rands weaves in the stone of tear. i think its already been said, but unravelling and untying are two different things. and, rand felt the impact of severed flows. there would be no flows if she had untied them.<br /><br />i also think its probably impossible to untie another persons weave when they still have control of it. if they tied it off, and then another person took control of it, it would be.<br /><br />again, i have nothing to support this but logic, and i wouldnt be surprised if every bit of my argument was torn to bits by other people, but there it is.


created: 2002-05-14 15:56:53
subject: <b>I can just say one thing...</b>
body:
CERTAINLY! It is great! Why did&#180;nt anyone think about this before? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-14 16:15:01
subject: <b>I did!!!</b>
body:
well...kind of;<br /><br />It&#180;s the ONE theory that is so true that we all should be ashamed <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> not seeing clear before!!!!<br /><br />and finally my name is in a theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 18:36:01
subject: <b>Lan should have gotten into a 10-step program...</b>
body:
I think it would have been far better than trying to hide his problem by killing Asmodean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 20:45:43
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Ek gawd brain!!!! (sounds like pinky from the cartoon &quot;Pinky and the Brain&quot; Why didn't I think of this before???!?! Those pesky darkfriends must be keeping us out of the light again!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 21:14:53
subject: <b>very funny!!!</b>
body:
i love it! great thinking!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 22:35:30
subject: <b>AWESOME!</b>
body:
You are so right! <br />Why didn't I realise? <br />It's obvious!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 10:27:10
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I guess I better call back the hunt for Asmodeans killer, he's too dangerous for these puny Aiel. I hope Lan is sober for Tarmon Gaidin or atleast discovers everclear


created: 2002-05-15 11:01:52
subject: <b>Of Course!!!</b>
body:
After all, Moirane knew Asmodean true identity. It makes sense that Lan knew as well. And he was pissed that Moir had just been killed by a forsaken. Why not take the opportunity to kill another forsaken to further his proxy revenge.<br /><br /><br />But on to more serious bussiness...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Am I the only one who sees the resemblence between Lan and the descriptions of Demendred? Maybe we finally have an idea of Demmy true identity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 11:28:25
subject: <b>yeah sure...</b>
body:
...Lan is Demandred!!! that&#180;s it!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-16 09:00:42
subject: <b>Lan's the hero...</b>
body:
not only did he kill asmo he is the creator!... with a drinkin problem... cause i think the guy must have been drunk when he made a pattern that repeats itsself. Imprisoning all those poor fellows in a timeloop. <br />Everyday is the Last Day....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />                     - Sun Tzu -<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-03 20:01:46
subject: <b>haha</b>
body:
i wonder why i didn't think of him before. but a drinking problem? lan? are you sure? i mean, he seems like the last person i could think of that would have a drinking problem. well, maybe it's from all those years of facing the dark as stoneface!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-14 21:21:15
subject: <b>Duh!</b>
body:
oh my! so that would explain why Lan is so strange! i never would have guessed...but that's what geniuses like you are for!


created: 2003-05-01 03:25:01
subject: <b>That Drunken Bast@#$!</b>
body:
I never trusted that stone-faced freak.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />TheGnome<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />I see dead people<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I feel the taint<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Go Goblins and Gnomes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-05 11:54:00
subject: <b>Good Grief</b>
body:
Lan certainly did not do it.  He has excellent control of himself (Except around Nynaeve . . . ) Thom is the one with the drinking problem.  Besides, Cyndane did it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 00:44:34
subject: <b>(sigh)</b>
body:
mabey if i hit you really hard you will start to make sense.....or not. Graendal killed him, you bloody idiot(yes  i really do use WoT swearing in real life)! Its on this bloody site you crazy DFhugger!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:14:52
subject: <b>NUH-UH!</b>
body:
You see, later Asmodean's skin appears... no wait, sorry. that was the tinker dude... i think. could someone clear me up on that one? but if Asmodean's skin appears then NO WAY am i voting for this theory. but i wont vote until i find out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:17:50
subject: <b>ACTUALLY...</b>
body:
yeah, i agree. because of course since lan's moiraine's warder then he would know. so... i vote YESSSS. sorry about the NUH-UH thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 19:32:34
subject: <b>wrong!!!!</b>
body:
That is totally not true!!  lan is way to cool for that!<br />he does NOT have a drinking problem!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mother always told me the best way to learn to deal with a man was to learn to ride a mule. She said they have about equal brains most of the time.Sometimes the mule is smarter.<br />     -Egwene al'Vere<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 11:07:19
subject: <b>So, is the theory that...</b>
body:
he is not General Ituralde? or did we not get the entire thing posted for some reason?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 16:05:22
subject: <b>accuracy???</b>
body:
I agree. The lean old man is not Ituralde. Your logic in the second part of your theory is impeccable. &quot;On p183 of LoC, Threads Woven of Shadow, she hides her identity when [Ituralde] comes to see the Lady Basene.&quot; So he cannot possibly be the old man who saw her as Graendal in tFoH, that is evident.<br /><br />But. You say about Graendal that &quot;She tends to overdo it with Compulsion.&quot; Robert Jordan's opinion: &quot;She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.&quot; (LoC, Threads Woven of Shadow, Sammael's POV)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 22:48:46
subject: <b>To Burr</b>
body:
How is it becoming evident the old man is Noal.  There is absolutely no set in stone evidence that this is true.  For all we know it could possibly well be that General.  Don't make your opinions seem like fact just because your some sort of Administrator.  That's all.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 01:43:31
subject: <b>Your all wrong</b>
body:
She just woke up from the Bore and he was the first man she saw...after 3000 years she needed a man and Boom the old man gets to bang one of the strongest women from 3000 years ago *grins evilly*


created: 2002-05-18 08:09:28
subject: <b>In fact</b>
body:
Actually he was young man, but Semirhage was horny too and after her affections he only looks ancient but actually he is only 19 years old.


created: 2002-05-20 17:52:43
subject: <b>Noal</b>
body:
If Noal is Jain, as many say (I won't throw my own opinion out there...), then it is safe to assume that Jain is not the lean old man.  My reasoning is thus:  would Greandal ever release one of her subjects?  I doubt it.  I think that the old man is probably the general, but I could go either way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 15:14:27
subject: <b>Damn! I had something to say but Eleana beat me to it!</b>
body:
Graendal is actually quite good at compulsion when she needs to be.  (As Eleana mentioned)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 01:57:24
subject: <b>true</b>
body:
I missed that quote when I was putting that theory together.  Thanks for straightening me out, y'all.  I still don't think the old man is Ituralde, though.  I don't think we have enough info to say for sure that it's Noal, but personally, I think it's probably him.  (Sigh...I kinda liked Noal)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...but that's just my opinion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Now resuming lurk mode<br /><br />Brown Ajah<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Hmmm...fascinating<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> (scritch, scri, scritch)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-02 18:41:47
subject: <b>Read glimers</b>
body:
In glimers you basically find out that it is not the general, But my own opinion is that it isn't Noal either.  I think that it is most likely King Alsalam Who has gone missing and keeps sending out messages that increase chaos.  It's really so obvious now that I almost dont need to post it, but hey at least it's now up to date.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-05-17 15:11:48
subject: <b>I don't know if I agree with the theory....</b>
body:
but I have to disagree with Burr's comments.  It has already been stated on numerous occasions that the capital letter was obvious in someone's pronunciation(when speaking of a Talent).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 15:44:40
subject: <b>True...</b>
body:
While I suppose we could make a case that the Common Tongue has different ways to pronounce letters to show if they are capital letters or not, the fact that so many authors use that same line without any regard for linguistics makes me doubt it.<br /><br />It sounds better than saying the listener figured out the meaning through the context of the conversation, and it is more concise than describing the expressions that pass by on the speaker's face each time they say a word.  In short, it's a simple explanation that the readers will accept; but it is not meant to be taken literally.<br /><br />Therefore, I don't think his previous statements about capital letter pronunciation is something RJ would have seriously considered when he wrote the Foretelling.  What he <i>would</i> have considered is how he could make the Fortelling vague while still describing the correct interpretation well.  Changing &quot;Sisters&quot; to &quot;sisters&quot; would have been the work of a moment as he refined the Foretelling; easily done and easily rationalized.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 18:16:34
subject: <b>Elaida Misunderstood (Again)</b>
body:
This is another Foretelling that Elaida simply misunderstood with her one-track mind that she is doing what's good for the White Tower.<br /><br />When she has the Foretelling, she immediately assumes it means that Aes Sedai sisters (they refer to each other as sisters commonly enough that it loses it's &quot;S&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> will be the ones to cause the blood/fire in an overthrow of the Black Tower, when in fact the blood/fire will be created by strife within the Black Tower and the Aes Sedai sisters are walking the grounds as captives/bondees not victors.<br /><br />Stupid Elaida, I'm trying to figure out if she'll realize how tricked she has been by her Foretelling and nudges in that misunderstood direction by the Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 01:38:23
subject: <b>I agree with Kinghomer</b>
body:
The sisters are the ones themen Bonded and the Blood is from the up coming battle...the Sisters still walking after seems to hint at Logain's victory over Taim as i think only his men have AS bonded...i could be wrong


created: 2002-05-18 04:27:09
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I also agree with kinghomer about her misinterpreting the foretelling. This is again shown where Elaida belives that the Amyrylian (sp) whos anger Rand will face is hers. I belive it is actually Egwenes as she is much more likely to get annoyed with Rand and shout at him!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 05:31:54
subject: <b>I agree with the above comments</b>
body:
The irony in this was that the sisters walking the grounds of the Black Tower are the captives, and the rending in blood and fire will be when Taim and Logain's factions have it out, not because the sisters are destroying it. Of course, it is highly likely that a lot of the sisters will end up fighting as they won't want to find out what happens if the Asha'man who bonded them die - it may be the same for them as for Warders when their Aes Sedai die - and they can escape the Oaths by saying that the Asha'man can technically be considered their Warders. Some of the Aes Sedai may even make this fact by bonding them, you never know - it's possible that at least one Aes Sedai and Asha'man will work together well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 09:59:18
subject: <b>Capitals</b>
body:
There have been loads of cases where sisters has been spelt with a small &quot;s&quot;, Nynaeve does it enough in WH. That's not an issue.


created: 2002-05-18 11:39:43
subject: <b>May Have Already Happened</b>
body:
As someone pointed out, Aes Sedai sisters ARE walking the ground.  The posters' view of Elayne and Aviendha was also a shrewd one.<br /><br />But...one could consider Rand's fights with the rogue Ashaman to qualily.  <br /><br />But I think the central point has been already mentioned:  Elaida's foretellings are always skewed the way SHE wants to see them, and she's pretty much always wrong in her interpretation.


created: 2002-05-18 14:20:13
subject: <b>The Capital is heard...</b>
body:
Ah, but Burr... Several times in the whole saga someone is saying that the Capital was clearly heard, as when Loial's mom is called &quot;Speaker.&quot;<br /><br />Great idea, never noticed that glitch before..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pike-Captain<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Prepare to pass the Heart Guard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <br />Its time to dance with Jak o' the Shadows! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />War is evil. But sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils.- Kissinger<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 18:18:41
subject: <b>Read PoD, chapter 26.</b>
body:
There is numerous uses of 'sisters' with a small s. Interesting thought, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 17:14:30
subject: <b>Elaida's Foretelling and the Black Tower</b>
body:
I believe that Logain will confront Taim when he finds out he is a darkfriend.. the Black tower will be split in two like the white tower and the Asha'man will rally. Taim of course will be rid of or chased off and Logain will lead the Asha'man for Rand the Dragon Reborn. What Elaida saw was the aftermath of the battle that happened and the sisters that walked the grounds were the ones that were bonded to the Asha'man that were there. hehehe sucks to be Elaida, shes so wrong.


created: 2002-06-01 04:34:43
subject: <b>Could be an oversight in editing, but....</b>
body:
I agree in general with the poster's thought and Burr's comment, but it may be deliberate. We know Mr. Jordan's love of subtlety(sp?), so the lower-case &quot;s&quot; may well be deliberate. Consider the Prologue of tEotW, where Ishamael is speaking to Lews Therin. (I don't have my copy of it....my l'il sis is reading it.)<br />Anyway, he says something like, &quot;It's too bad one of your Sisters isn't here,&quot; and I do believe it was capitolized.<br />OTOH, it could be that someone goofed, and it is supposed to be &quot;S&quot;. Were it an oversight, Mr. Jordan would likely say so, if asked. If it's not, we'd get the usual &quot;RAFO&quot; *shrug* <br />Just my 2-cents. This is a great site!<br /><br />Aloha,<br /><br />Joe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 23:45:26
subject: <b>Who cares about the capital...</b>
body:
In Book One, when Moiraine is asked whether or not she could fend off another Trolloc attack, she mentions that she could not kill all of them unless she had several of her 'sisters' with her. I noticed several other times in Book One where the word 'sisters' isn't capitalized when referring to Aes Sedai. Just pointing that out to you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 13:00:13
subject: <b>I disagree...</b>
body:
I think Elaidas foretelling is refering to when Taim reveals what an arse of a dark friend he is,  along with however many Asha'man have turned to the shadow and will und up squaring off with Logain and his Light faction.  We,ve already seen that Logain dislikes Taim and there are two factions emerging.  A scrap between the two would certainly 'rent the black tower in blood and fire',  would it not.  As Burr says aswell there are already Aes-sedai walking its grounds!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Ruathain,  first sword of the Rigante  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Member of the Trigger Fanclub  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He who comes with the Chicken Soup  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  I would love to be a Buddhist Monk,  but i would<br />    miss the immaterial far to much!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 13:32:00
subject: <b>Good call!</b>
body:
Great idea. <br /><br />Unfortunately, half of the time the characters don't see what's under their noses. <br /><br />Just like real life!


created: 2002-05-18 13:36:21
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I like this theory, but it's probably too simple to work.  I bet the Finns have already thought of this possibility and have set up something to prevent people from entering or leaving the Tower like this. If this idea were true and a channeler is stuck in the Tower, couldn't they escape through a gateway?<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-18 16:14:40
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
A good Simple theory, but dont forget that not only is The Tower of Ghengi connected to the OP, but also connected to TAR, i dont think this could be gotten around except thru TAR !<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> = &quot;God Bless Natalie Portman's parents !!!!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 16:22:09
subject: <b>Something new..</b>
body:
Very good.  Something else I hadn't thought about.  It's simple and thats why I like it.  Good work!<br /><br />Columbo is on the Case!<br /><br />Also, someone just mentioned above that if you can channel and create a gateway to get in, will it not work the same to get out?  If that's possible then maybe Moraine is already free as I have supected she might be.  Moraine seemed to have knowledge of the Ter'angreal and the Finns prior to falling through the doorway.  Did Moraine possess knowledge that would allow her to escape in a way that is like or simular this theory?  I believe that either Moraine is free or dead.  As you can tell I'm leaning in favor of alive,  free of the Finns and working behind the scenes at the moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 18:15:09
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
MAkes sense, but as soeone said above: they cant see what's under their noses. Then again, wasnt the tower somehow not in the real world? Or not in this dimension or something? I think that Birgette said something of the like in tSR, but I cant remember for sure. That could have an effect with the gateway, but I like the idea!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 02:52:40
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I can't imagine her alive and walking around..she's not dead as Rand needs her we see from Min's visions so she's trapped<br /><br />He to simple...maybe...but maybe RJ just wants to mess with us once and just have it be simple hehe seeing as most Look deeply into the problem


created: 2002-05-19 08:08:09
subject: <b>Jordan wouldn't do that to us.</b>
body:
It's far too simple. We've all been dying to know how to get Moiraine back, and just simply having Rand make a gateway would be a huge let-down. Also, as many people have said, the Finn probably wouldn't be too pleased about that possibility, and may very well have set up something to stop this. However, as far as we know, it is possible, and I praise your way of thinking.<br /><br />Two thoughts:<br />1) Finnland is not in our dimension. (Well, we all knew that - ever been to Helsinki? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) Remember how Rand and Mat in the Aelfinn <i>ter'angreal</i> were about to rip away the connection between the main dimension and the Finn's dimension? (No, fellow EQ members, it should not be &quot;Finns'&quot; because &quot;Finn&quot; is the plural of &quot;Finn&quot;.) The world of the Finn is quite obviously not in a physical location in the our world. (I say &quot;our world&quot; and &quot;our dimension&quot; because I <i><b>hate</b></i> Randland!) I suspect that if anyone tried to make a gateway into the Tower of Ghenjei (why can no-one spell it? The Tower of Genji is a Japanese novel. It's so simple...), they would fall into a nothingness, like the Skimming universe or like what happens to women trying to Travel like men. Obviously though this is pure speculation.<br /><br />2) The possibility is <i>not</i> under the characters' noses; it is under <i>our</i> noses! Not all the characters know everything that we do. Rand has only vaguely heard of the Tower of Ghenjei, and only seen it as a faraway point of light reflected from the sun, when he was sailing down the Arinelle with Bayle Domon all the way back in <i>tEotW</i>. He's probably forgotten all about it by now anyway, what with everything he's been through. He also has no idea that it has anything to do with the Finn. Remember, <i>Perrin</i> is the only one who knows this, from when Birgitte spoke to him in the World of Dreams. Perrin has not seen it in the real world, and Mat and Rand have, but Rand and Mat know nothing more about it than that it is a big metal tower with no door standing in the middle of nowhere. Mat probably can't even remember it, since he was under the dagger's influence at the time. Perrin and Rand both know the name &quot;Tower of Ghenjei&quot;, but neither has mentioned it to the other, and thus neither knows that the other has heard of it. Perrin knows that the Tower of Ghenjei has to do with the Finn, and that the <i>ter'angreal</i> through which Moiraine fell does as well, so presumably, if it is any of the three <i>ta'veren</i> who rescues Moiraine, it should be Perrin. No one but Perrin, I think, knows both of these two things, as Birgitte was not around when Moiraine and Lanfear fell through the <i>ter'angreal</i>.<br /><br />3)(OK, OK, three thoughts; shall I come in again? Nobody expects the English Quisition!) If this does happen, it would suggest that all three <i>ta'veren</i> and Thom will rescue her. Let's look at why:<br /><br /><i>Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, and iron to bind.</i> Snakes and Foxes is a memory of dealings with the Finn, and can only be won by cheating. The Finn forbid people visiting through the two <i>ter'angreal</i> to bring lanterns, musical instruments, or things made of iron. Obviously they're scared of them, so they can probably be defeated by these things. Children's chants can be very indicative of past events, both in real life and it the Wheel of Time (c.f. the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; chant), as they are passed down orally and do not change. In fact, they are one of the last remnants of our ancient oral traditions. I would imagine that Jordan knows this. Thus, it could well be that the rhyme is the only remaining memory from the last Third Age, although it doesn't have to be - I myself generally get pretty sceptical when people talk about ages before the First. The suggestion is that only these four things, working together, can defeat the Finn. The chant may (or may not) be a memory from when they were defeated by Rand, Mat, Perrin and Thom seven Ages ago.<br /><br /><b>Mat: Courage to strengthen.</b> He is a great general, and has many memories of being a soldier, therefore obviously Courage. He has had dealings with the Finn before, having visited both, and would love to get back at them both for cheating him (as he sees it). His foxhead amulet will probably be important. Perhaps it will make them listen to the heroes, instead of killing them, or something? He was also in the same viewing of Egwene's that showed Thom pulling a blue stone out of a fire.<br /><br /><i>&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot;</i><br /><br />They could be seperate, but the &quot;while&quot; does seem to suggest that they are linked somehow. Mat is with Thom at the moment.<br /><br /><b>Rand: Fire to blind.</b> He can Travel, so he can get the guys into the Tower in the first place. When he went to see the Aelfinn in Tear, he blinded them with his sword of Fire. Nuff said, I think.<br /><br /><b>Thom: Music to dazzle.</b> Obviously: he's a musician, and Egwene saw him pulling Moiraine's stone out of a fire. Simple enough.<br /><br /><b>Perrin: Iron to bind.</b> As we all know, he's a blacksmith. He also is the one with the knowledge needed to work out that Moiraine is in there in the first place. He knows more about the place than anyone else, and it's quite obvious from his conversation with Hopper and Birgitte that he's going to go in there some day.<br /><br />I think Perrin will not go in there together with Rand, Mat and Thom (assuming, of course, that it does happen this way). He will enter it via the Wolf Dream. He has seen the Tower there, and I have a feeling that his rescuing Faile from T'A'R in tDR was a foreshadowing of this. Perhaps they will meet up there, somehow being in the same place although Perrin is in T'A'R and the others are in the real world (I think Finnland is probably like that - a mixture or <i><b>Crossroads</b></i> between the two.) The fact that they escape at all afterwards will probably have something to do with the fact that Perrin is there in the Dreamworld and not in the real world. Perhaps he can change stuff around with his mind to get them out, or can exit by waking up; I don't know.<br /><br />Much of number (3) is influenced by Three In A Boat's theory, &quot;Courage to strengthen...&quot; in the &quot;Moiraine&quot; section of the Theory post. However, before you rally with cries of plagiarism, he thought that Egwene was the courage and Mat was the fire.<br /><br />Conclusion: Mat, Rand, Thom and Perrin are the Courage, Fire, Music and Iron that alone, and in conjunction with each other, can defeat the Finn and rescue Moiraine.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 15:17:14
subject: <b>RE</b>
body:
Snakes have alreydy Seen Mat and Rand, so if they tried to save Moiraine Snakes would know everything about it and they would not allow them to steal their pet AS. Naturally assuming that Snakes really have ability to see all possible actions and destiny of their customers and they want keep her. After all if I knew when and how burglar is going to break in my house I would do my best to stop him. So I think that it would be a good idea if Moiraine would be saved by someone who is not already Seen by Snakes.


created: 2002-05-19 18:44:22
subject: <b>Chant from a childrens game</b>
body:
No. You get into the tower by making a sign of a triangle intersected with a wavy line, and chant the verse: &quot;Courage to strengthen, iron to bind, music to dazzle, fire to blind.&quot;<br /> In LoC, Mat and Olver are playing Snakes and Foxes. When they start a new game that is what Olver does to open the game. I cant remember what page, around 600 odd, but those actions tickle something in Mats memories when Olver asks why you are supposed to say that when there is no iron mmusic etc, but he cant remember what. <br />Also, the quote at the start of the book about letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Another chant from a childrens game.<br />Remember: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Stories fade to legend, and legend fade to myth...<br />Where else to hide a very important piece of historical advice then in a often played, very innocent, and puzzling childrens game. Children do not corrupt things as badly as adult do. They also BELIEVE in the fantastic, whereas adults order things into Real and Unreal, with no shades of grey.<br /><br />There's my piece. If anyone remembers or finds the pg no., I would be greatful for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 23:44:15
subject: <b>. . . . . . Music to dazzle, iron to bind, . . . . . . .</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 01:36:34
subject: <b>just had a thought, can't go anywhere with it, but umm...</b>
body:
The new book cover says that Perrin is &quot;willing to sell his soul&quot; to get her back. I also think I have read this somewhere before, I thought it was on the cover of WH, but I just read it and I guess not. At any rate, perhaps Perrin will go see the foxes, via the tower, and ask for his wifes safe return. He will of course have to pay a price for this...<br /><br />I don't really have anymore to add to this bit, but it could mean something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 10:57:13
subject: <b>It was on the cover of PoD!</b>
body:
Windsor:<br />It was on the cover of &quot;A Path of Daggers&quot; that Perrin was going to give his soul to save her.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 11:36:32
subject: <b>point-blank traveling</b>
body:
I was under the impression that the short-distance traveling was only possible with a direct line-of-sight.  I don't think it actually mentions that anywhere, but that was how I interpreted the ability.  Like when the asha'man are searching for Seanchan in the forest, they bounce from hill-top to hill-top.  And in Rand's case in Illian, it was a tower-top that was visible to him on the ground.


created: 2002-05-20 14:49:58
subject: <b>The foxes have Moraine</b>
body:
I think that the foxes are using Moraine against the snakes.  Moraine clawed the angreal away from Lanfear when she tackled her, so Moraine was definetly the more powerful of the two upon entering.  She killed Lanfear and the foxes melted the doorway to keep her there and use her against the snakes.


created: 2002-05-24 15:14:30
subject: <b>Daemione:</b>
body:
We first learn of point-blank Travelling in the last chapter of ACOS when Rand is hunting Sammael. He Travels a short distance through the palace to a place about three floors directly above him. He muses &quot;You didn't have to know a place at all if you only wanted to Travel a short distance. Therefore, you don't need to see the place, just know where you want to go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 12:40:12
subject: <b>A different way...</b>
body:
I had forgotten about the triangle intersected with a wavy line that goes with the chant . Doesn't that remind you of the symbols that are found on Portal Stones? Perhaps that's the way to enter Finnworld and rescue Moiraine? It's a thought anyway...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-17 22:44:09
subject: <b>Simply Ash is right</b>
body:
I think Rand mentions the Triangle/wavy line thing at some point. Book 4?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-21 16:06:53
subject: <b>RE: Triangles and Wavy Lines</b>
body:
Hi there. This is my first time posting, so be nice to me. ^.^<br /><br />About the wavy line enclosed in a triangle, my first thoughts on that, I thought, were fairly obvious. Think of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn -- one race described as Foxes, the other as Snakes. A triangle (point down, of course) is roughly the shape of a fox's face, and of course a wavy line symbolises a snake. So the symbol traced in the air would naturally one of the Finns. <br /><br />Or, so I think. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Ana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-28 12:31:09
subject: <b>Mat will use cannons</b>
body:
I have always held to the idea that mat will rescue her. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Mainly because of his conection to the Finn and he has Thom with him. Also there are the refrences to mat rediscovering gunpowder, and reinventing cannons (See Egwen's dreams for gunpowder) The cannons not only fit the music, fire and iron he has been looking for a bellfounder, and it's uses. Cannons are made the same way bells are. I say he will get cannons and blast his way in, kinda like at the stone, but that is just me.


created: 2002-08-15 02:10:52
subject: <b>Entering the Tower of Ghenjei</b>
body:
Two points:<br />1.  Aludra's matches(firesticks) equal fire.  She has been perfecting the formula for some time now. Mat has samples of them. <br />2.  Although making gateways on a line of sight basis works well in Randland, the premise of knowing both the starting and ending points would be essential when jumping from RL to the world of the Eelfinn.  Even though the outside of the tower is physically in RL, the inside is very far away.  I'd hate to be there for that trip.  Besides, Rand thinks Moiraine is dead saving him from Lanfear and has other skulls to knock.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-10-28 17:53:42
subject: <b>The truth about the wavy lines and triangles</b>
body:
In TSR, when Mat, Rand, and Moiraine all went into the redstone doorframe ter'angreal in Tear, there were wavy lines running along the sides of the doorframe.  That doorframe led to the Aelfinn (the snakes) who told him all his prophecies and whatnot.  When Mat went through the redstone doorframe ter'angreal in Rhuidean, it had triangles along the edges.  That doorframe led to the Eelfinn (the foxes), who gave him his memories, the ashanderei, the foxhead ter'angreal, and the hanging scar.  While I don't know about making the little hand gestures from the beginning of the game Snakes and Foxes to access the Tower of Ghenjei, I can definitely tell you that those symbols are the symbols for the snakes/Aelfinn (wavy lines) and the foxes/Eelfinn (triangles).


created: 2002-12-27 17:10:21
subject: <b>is moiraine alive?</b>
body:
How can we be sure that Moiraine is really alive?  Didn't Lan feel her die, or feel his bond being passed to someone else?  And if Lanfear was brought back to life as Cyndane, dosn't that suggest that she had to die in the first place to be brought back?  And how can we be sure that if she did survive that she is in the tower, unless I missed someting, which is entirly possible.


created: 2003-03-07 17:20:08
subject: <b>Traveling into the Tower of Ghenjei</b>
body:
When traveling over short distances you don't need to have studies the place where you're traveling to, but you do need to be able to see it.  If Rand opened a gateway right outside the Tower of Ghenjei how would he or anyone know where you would come out.  You might come out into a wall or something.<br /><br /><br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.<br /><br />It's time to roll the dice.


created: 2003-04-25 21:52:07
subject: <b>The page number and quotes.</b>
body:
The page number that the passage about Snakes and Foxes begins on is 640...<br /><br />'Leaning on his elbow, Mat examined the game of Snakes and Foxes laid out on the tent floor...<br /><br />...piece of red cloth with the web of lines drawn in only one way and which both.' (note: and which both? am i missing something?)<br /><br />'Ten pale wooden discs each with an inked triangle were the foxes, ten with a wavy line the snakes.<br /><br />&quot;We'll win this time, Mat,&quot; Olver said excitedly. &quot;I know we will.&quot;<br />&quot;Maybe,&quot; Mat said. The two black-stained discs were nearly back to the circle in the middle of the board, but the next roll of the dice would be for the snakes and foxes. Most of the time you did not make it as far as the outer edge. &quot;Roll the dice.&quot; He never touched the dice cup himself, not since the day he had given it to the boy; if they were going to play the game, it might as well be without his luck taking a hand...'<br /><br />'...Only a child's game, but Mat did not like the fox getting him, and even less the snakes. It brought back bad memories, even if one had nothing to do with the other.<br />&quot;Well,&quot; Olver muttered, &quot;we almost won. Another game, Mat?&quot; Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened the game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. &quot;'Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.' Mat, why do we say that? There is no fire, no music and no iron.&quot;<br />&quot;I don't know.&quot; The line tickled something in the back of his head, but he could not bring it up. The old memories from the ter'angreal might as well have been chosen at random -- they probably had been -- and there were all those gaps in his own, all those fuzzy places.'<br /><br />----------<br /><br />Well. At first, I thought that perhaps Mat's luck did not work with Snakes and Foxes, but I read this for the first time in a few months and remembered that Olver always rolls the dice. <br />'...all those fuzzy places [in his memory]' Like when the dagger had him all crazy? Likely why he doesn't remember the Tower. There's no telling whether or not he would put the Tower together with the game if he remembered it. He might. But it also says the memories may be chosen at random... well... what about Mat's luck? He usually gets random thoughts when he needs them, but not now. Perhaps because he doesn't remember the Tower.<br />I imagine that using a gateway would not open/get you into the Tower... it's too simple, really, and it *is* in another dimension, unless the theory about the T'A'R is correct (which it very well may be!). The triangle/wavy line seems to make more sense. I don't think Rand has played Snakes and Foxes -- can anyone confirm that? He might remember the two ter'angreal with the wavy line/triangle borders and parallel it to the game, if he has.<br />I do agree with the courage, fire, music, and iron being the ta'veren and Thom. It makes sense.<br /><br />Well. There's no way to tell, really... but I suppse we shall RAFO. *sniffs*<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-09 19:41:24
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Tower of Ghenjei first visited in Tel'aran'rhiod? Or was it the wolf dream, because I thought it was Perrin. Anyway, no matter where they first saw it, they don't know anything around it, yes? Now, how do you find something if you don't know where it is? They'd have to have gone searching for a landmark or something to know where it was. Just a thought. I'm probably wrong, but... whatever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Falalalala la la la barf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />&lt;br&gt;<br />Constantly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />&lt;br&gt;<br />Always <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />&lt;br&gt;<br />Mostly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />&lt;br&gt;<br />Never <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&lt;br&gt;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-07 21:38:17
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Well, they saw the Tower from Bayle Domon's Spray on the way to Whitebridge.<br /><br />(*after hunting up TEoTW and the right page<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Page 355... <br /><br /><br />'...the sun glinted off something in the distance. &quot;What can that be?&quot; Rand wondered aloud. &quot;It looks like metal.&quot;'<br /><br />Then, from Bayle:<br /><br />&quot;It do be metal,&quot; he said... &quot;A tower of metal. I have seen it close up, and I know. River traders use it as a marker. We be ten days from Whitebridge at the rate we go.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;A metal tower?&quot; Rand said, and Mat, sitting cross-legged with his back against a barrel, roused from his brooding to listen. (note-- so he would remember it! that is, if the dagger didn't layer on the amnesia)<br /><br />&quot;Aye. Shining steel, by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust. Two hundred feet high, it be, as big around as a house, with no mark on it and never an opening to be found.<br /><br />&quot;I'll bet there's treasure inside,&quot; Mat said... &quot;A thing like that must have been made to protect something valuable.&quot;'<br /><br /><br />And then it goes on to talk about the statue sa'angreal on Tremalking. Well, I was mistaken -- Mat wasn't under the dagger's influence. But there's no reason for him to put together a tower of steel and moiraine's disappearance, though, is there?<br /><br />The measurements coincide with Perrin's wolfdream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 00:14:43
subject: <b>gateways &amp; other dimensions</b>
body:
Ok, first things first.  To Travel over short distances, the one making the gateway does not need to *see* the place he/she is Traveling to, nor do they need to be familiar with the place they are Traveling from.  I believe Eyeless_Myrddraal pointed this out using a reference from CoS where Rand is hunting Sammael.  <br /><br />This actually happens a few times.  First, Rand Traveled from the Square of Tammaz to the top of one of the towers on the King's Palace (pg. 835 paperback, CoS).  Arguably, Rand could see the top of the tower from the Square, so let's go the next example.<br /><br />Later in that chapter, while waiting atop the tower for Sammael to come back to Illian, Rand feels a man channel.  He quickly weaves a gateway from the top of the tower to a room somewhere in the Great Hall of the Council, across the Square of Tammaz (pg. 837-838 paperback, CoS).  Since Rand's gateway opened INTO a room, he couldn't possibly see where his gateway was coming out.  Rather, he had to place the gateway based on where he felt the man channel.  Once again, there is a good counter-point though.  Rand was on top of the tower for quite awhile, so he was probably familiar with it by then.  By 'awhile' I mean that he Traveled to Illian when &quot;Overhead, the golden sun was more than halfway down to the horizon.&quot; (pg. 831 paperback, CoS) and Sammael didn't return to Illian until &quot;Twilight, and the sun a low crimson dome in the west.&quot; (pg. 837 paperback, CoS).  So, to minimize arguments, let's proceed to the next example.<br /><br />In the Great Hall of the Council, after exchanging a few wicked Power blasts, Sammael taunts Rand into following him.  Rand feels a gateway open and close above him, then &quot;Weaving a gateway, he stepped through, to a place floors above.&quot; (pg. 840 paperback, CoS).  This example shows Rand weaving a gateway a short distance from a place he is not familiar with to a place he cannot see.  <br /><br />My case is closed.<br /><br />BUT, being the long-winded person I am, I must lastly say that this scene with Sammael isn't the first example of short-distance Traveling.  That honor goes to the end of FoH when Rand &amp; his raiding party Skin to Caemlyn.  Recall that while they are standing there in the street, someone (Rahvin) attacks them with saidin and kills a bunch of people, including Mat, Asmodeam and Aviendha.  At this point Rand goes into killer Lews Therin mode, then he wastes some Trollocs and before they even die he opens a gateway right through their bodies.   The exact passage is &quot;...a gateway opened right where they stood.  ...but Rand was staring through the opening.  Not into blackness, but a great columned hall with lion-carved stone panels...&quot;<br /><br />As proof that it was indeed Rand (in killer Lews Therin mode, of course) who opened this gateway (though anyone arguing that it was someone else [Rahvin?  Asmodean?] is a fool), see a few pages later. &quot;A residue hung in the air... Rand recognized it.  Different from the gateway he had made to Skin to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel--he knew now that was what he had done--into the throneroom.&quot; (pg. 935 paperback, FoH).<br /><br />Wow that was fun.  I am about to put up another b-board post discussing Traveling to other dimensions, which will finally make my GRAND POINT that Traveling into the Tower of Ghenjei is totally possible.  Stay tuned.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance.  Mine above all others  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 05:39:44
subject: <b>gateways &amp; dimensions part 2</b>
body:
Ok, my last post about Traveling over short distances was IMHO pretty obvious, but I always feel more comfortable making a point clear before proceeding.  <br /><br />This next one is also kind of obvious, but not on the same level of clarity.  Therefore my post is a HECK of a lot longer.  <br /><br />Here I will make a case for Traveling to other dimensions, and that will finally (combined with my previous post) show why I think Had's theory is entirely possible.  By 'dimensions' I mean other worlds of the Pattern; the kinds of worlds reachable by the Portal Stones, and some not reachable by the stones (like *finnland).<br /><br />In the prologue to LoC the second to last sub-section takes place in an odd room that I believe to be a vacuole, those odd 'bubbles' in the Pattern outside of the 'real world.'  I am going to use a handy description of these vacuole given in aCoS to demonstrate this.  I will then show that it is possible to use the One Power to Travel into a vacuole, which is outside of the Pattern.  Given this possibility, and the inarguable fact that it is also possible to Travel into T'A'R, I will ultimately show that Traveling to another dimension/world is completely possible.<br /><br />Let's start with aCoS so we have an idea of what I'm talking about.<br /><br />In chapter 25, after Ishy/Moridin asks Moghedien if she enjoyed her time in the vacuole, she reacts thusly, &quot;Moghedien felt icy fingers dig into her scalp.  She was no researcher or maker, but she knew that word.  She did not even think to ask how a young man of this time did, too.  Sometimes there were bubbles in the Pattern, though someone like Mesaana would say that was too simple an explanation.  Vacuoles could be entered, if you knew how, and manipulated much like the rest of the world--researchers had often done great experiments in vacuoles, so she vaguely remembered hearing--but they were outside the Pattern really, and sometimes they closed up, or perhaps broke off and drifted away.  Even Mesaana could not say what happened--except that anything in them at the time was gone forever.&quot; (pg. 532-533 paperback, aCoS)<br /><br />So we have Moghedien giving us a description of vacuoles from her limited knowledge of them.  She definitely knows they are 'outside the Pattern.'  She also considers Mesaana more knowledgeable on the matter.  Not just more knowledgeable, but an authority on the subject as someone who has studied them.<br /><br />Now back to the LoC prologue, the second to last sub-section in Mesaana's POV.  &quot;The chamber had the appearance of a palace sitting room--vaulted ceiling of worked plaster, finely woven carpets on the white-tiled floor, elaborately carved paneling for the walls--though it was far from any palace.  Indeed, it was far from anywhere, in any way that most humans would understand.&quot; (pg. 65 paperback, LoC)<br /><br />This sounds like a vacuole to me.  The most indicative comment I can make is the the correlation between the part about being 'far from anywhere' and Moghedien's observation about vacuoles being 'outside the Pattern.'  Also, since this is in Mesaana's POV the part about 'in any way most humans would understand' says to me that she is one of the humans who WOULD understand, which also correlates nicely with Moghedien considering her an authority on the matter.<br /><br />I used to think that this meeting between Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana &amp; Semirhage took place at one of the places near Shayol Ghul where reality is malleable.  Let's call them SG_Rooms to avoid confusion.  This is contradicted by one main observation though.  First, the SG_Rooms are close to Shayol Ghul, whereas Mesaana thinks that the chamber they are in is &quot;...far from any palace.  Indeed, it was far from anywhere...&quot; which would include, of course, being far from Shayol Ghul.  So they're not in a SG_Room.<br /><br />This observation of Mesaana's about being 'far from anywhere' sounds NOTHING like the way the Chosen think when they are at one of the SG_Rooms.  Here are some instances...<br /><br />Ishy/Ba'alz says &quot;The place where you stand lies in the shadow of Shayol Ghul.&quot; (pg. xxii paperback, tGH)  This is preceded by Bors thinking &quot;If one did not look too closely, the huge room could have been in a palace, with its tall marble fireplaces and its golden lamps hanging from the domed ceiling, its colorful tapestries and intricately patterned mosaic floor.  If one did not look too closely.  The fireplaces were cold, for one thing.  Flames danced on logs as thick as a man's leg, but gave no heat.  The walls behind the tapestries, the ceiling high above the lamps, were undressed stone, almost black.  There were no windows, and only two doorways, one at either end of the room.  It was as if someone had intended to give the semblance of a palace reception chamber but had not cared enough to bother with more than the outline and a few touches for detail.&quot; (pg. xv paperback, tGH)  So here we see that Ishy/Ba'alz is the one who intended an appearance but didn't bother with details.<br /><br />Then we have...<br /><br />&quot;Graendal had chosen the setting, since she had been first to arrive, and it irritated him.  View-walls made the striped wooden floor appear to be surrounded by a forest full of brightly flowered vines and fluttering birds that were even more colorful.  Sweet scents and soft birdcalls filled the air.  Only the arch of the doorway spoiled the illusion.  Why did she want a reminder of what was lost?  They could as soon make shocklances or sho-wings as a view-wall outside of this place, close to Shayol Ghul.&quot; (pg. 356 paperback, WH)<br /><br />There are a few others (when Osan'gar &amp; Aran'gar are introduced in LoC; when Moghedien first meets Ishy/Moridin after being imprisoned in aCoS; when Ishy/Moridin is thinking about the game sha'rah in tPD...) but in all of them the thoughts of the Chosen are nothing like Mesaana's.  Their thoughts are more along the lines of it being dangerous to channel there, or odd things happening in the SG_Rooms were to be expected.<br /><br />So this scene in the prologue of LoC takes place in a vacuole IMHO.  To prove that the One Power is used to Travel into the vacuole, consider these two quotes from Mesaana's POV...<br /><br />&quot;There was no warning, of course.  There never was, when a man channeled.  A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through...&quot; (pg. 66 paperback, LoC)<br /><br />...and on the next page...<br /><br />&quot;She felt the first spinning of saidar a moment before the glowing line appeared and became a gateway.&quot;<br /><br />The words 'gateway', 'vertical line', 'glowing line', 'saidar' and 'a man channeling' ABSOLUTELY 100% prove that both saidar and saidin can be used to Travel into a vacuole.  Thus the One Power can be used to get into a place outside of the Pattern.<br /><br />We also know from chapter 34 in LoC where Egwene Travels into T'A'R to get from Cairhien to Salidar, and from many places in the series where Rand Travels into T'A'R that the One Power can be used to Travel from the 'real world' into the World of Dreams.  <br /><br />The World of Dreams isn't just another world though.  Verin describes it best in chapter 21 of tDR, &quot;There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time.  Or perhaps surrounding them.  Writers in the Age of Legends call it Tel'aran'rhiod, 'the Unseen World.'  Perhaps 'the World of Dreams' is a better translation.&quot; (pg. 240 paperback, tDR)  So here we see that it is possible to Travel from a place in one world to a place in another.<br /><br />Here are the examples of gateway-making we know about then:<br />1)  Skimming - gateway to &quot;A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.&quot; (pg. 910 paperback, tFoH)<br />2)  'real world' Traveling - gateway from a place in the 'real world' to another place in the 'real world.'  This includes short distance Traveling (see my previous post on this b-board) and long distance Traveling.<br />3)  T'A'R Traveling - gateway from a place in the 'real world' to the same place in the World of Dreams.  Interesting how nobody has made a gateway from a place in the 'real world' to a different place in T'A'R, isn't it?  Maybe it's not possible.<br />4)  vacuole Traveling - gateway from the 'real world' into a bubble outside of the Pattern.  It must be assumed that the reverse is true as well, otherwise in the prologue to LoC all those Chosen would have been stuck in the vacuole until someone let them out.  Unlikely.<br /><br />Ok, so that's a good summary up to this point.  I'm going to end this post so I don't chase too many people away.  Stay tuned for the conclusion to my mad ranting.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance.  Mine above all others  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 06:49:55
subject: <b>gateways &amp; dimensions part 3 - jibba jabba</b>
body:
In my first b-board post for this theory, for those to survived it, I showed that short-distance Traveling was a real thing.  In my second b-board post, for those who haven't vowed to hunt me down and make me play Maiden's Kiss with a porcupine herd, I showed the different kinds of gateway-making:<br /><br />1) gateway from the 'real world' to &quot;A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.&quot; (pg. 910 paperback, tFoH)<br />2) gateway from a place in the 'real world' to another place in the 'real world.'<br />3) gateway from a place in the 'real world' to the same place in the World of Dreams.<br />4) gateway from the 'real world' into a bubble outside of the Pattern.<br /><br />Now we know that these are not the only places in the Pattern that exist.  After all, there are the worlds of 'if' or more commonly known as the worlds accessible via the Portal Stones.  It cannot definitively be argued one way or another whether these worlds of 'if' are accessible via Traveling.  The WORJWOT does not mention any kind of Traveling to these worlds, but only mentions them in connection with the Portal Stones.  That does not mean it is not possible, though.<br /><br />I am going to use Verin's description of the Great Pattern for my next and LAST section of argument.<br /><br />&quot;With one finger, Verin drew a number of parallel lines across the area she had cleared, lines clear in dust atop the old beeswax.  'Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way.'  'The worlds reached by the Portal Stones,' Egwene said...  'Very good.  But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child.  The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern.  Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though?  Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds--even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed--lying like this.'  She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set.  For a moment she stared at them.  'The warp and woof of the weave.  Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds.' &quot;<br /><br />Now that is some POTENT stuff there!  Moreover, I firmly believe that this isn't just a character musing over profound philosophies, but RJ himself telling us about his WOT.  I have ZERO proof for this, except for the unshakeable feeling that this chapter is about MUCH MORE than just introducing Egwene to the stone ter'angreal.<br /><br />I am arguing, based part on speculation and part on Verin's description of the Great Pattern, that Traveling to any of these worlds (worlds of 'if' and the 'cross-hatched' worlds) is difficult, but not impossible.  The difficulty would be in knowing where to have the gateway open.  The reason that these worlds of 'if' were not regularly Traveled to is because ending up in the exact world would be very difficult.  Too many of these worlds of 'if' would be so similar that a slight variation (accidental or intentional) in weaving a gateway might put you in a different world than the one you had intended to reach.  <br /><br />This might be simplified if, say, an Aes Sedai used a Portal Stone to visit some worlds.  Let's say they found one they liked, to collect grolm for instance, then marked it somehow.  Maybe they placed a 'marker' of the Power in the special world, similar to Rand touching his conduit of saidar to the male half of the Source in WH.  That's pure speculation though.  Maybe they Traveled back from this special world and in doing so made it easier to Travel to it from the 'real world.'  More speculation there, but I haven't read anything to the contrary either.  Regardless of how difficult it is to enter these worlds of 'if' I do not think that it has any bearing on Traveling to the world of the *finn.<br /><br />These other worlds Verin illustrated that 'cross-hatched' the worlds of 'if', which were supposedly harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones.  What about them?  I truly think that *finnland is one of these worlds.  It is not a world of 'if'.  *finnland is completely foreign to the 'real world,' so much so that it fits in this second set of worlds.  But the MOST IMPORTANT observation to make about *finnland is that two ter'angreal were MADE by wielders of the Power to connect it to the 'real world.'  That means, SOMEHOW *finnland was first accessed by wielders of the Power, who were then able to construct a means to bridge the two worlds.  <br /><br />This next statement seems so obvious IMHO that I hesitate to say it.  The doorframes were ter'angreal, which means they used the One Power.  Period.  Whether or not any ter'angreal requires channeling, they ALL USE THE ONE POWER.  Therefore THE ONE POWER can be used to access *finnland.  And guess what?  It can still be used to access *finnland!<br /><br />We know *finnland isn't a world of 'if' accessible through the Portal Stones.  That eliminates the Portal Stones as a means for the initial discovery of *finnland.  We know that it is possible to enter *finnland through the Tower of Ghenjei.  Perhaps this is how the original doorframe ter'angreal designers were able to access it, through the ToG.  Then they could have Traveled back to the 'real world' and worked on the doorframes.  This is PURE speculation.  But undeniably there were people in a previous Age who were able to wield the One Power, who accessed *finnland, then designed ter'angreal to permanently connect the two worlds.  These ter'angreal could then be used in the absence of people who could use the One Power to connect the two worlds.  I suggest that they initially did it through the ToG simply because Traveling to *finnland on accident (without even knowing it existed, let alone knowing where to Travel to) is near impossible.<br /><br />However, Rand happens to know where this world is.  He has been there, even if it was only to the Snakes part (are they the Eel* or Aef*?  I can never remember!).  Traveling back to that place would not be as hard for him.<br /><br />So I have shown that the One Power can be used to access *finnland.  I have shown that among those capable of making gateways, Rand has the best idea of where in the Great Pattern *finnland lies.  I have shown that making gateways outside of the Pattern is possible, as is making gateways between worlds.  All the pieces are there for Had's theory to work.  <br /><br />I sincerely apologize to all folks who hate me now.  I just couldn't take all the unsupported speculation and/or incorrect memories of the series surfacing to shoot down Had's good theory.<br /><br />Now I do have to say that I don't agree with Had's theory at all.  Though it is possible for it to happen, I don't think a gateway will be the way the rescuers get into *finnland.  I think the ToG is the key to getting in.  As Birgitte told Perrin, &quot;Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men.&quot; (pg. 462 paperback, tSR)  It IS possible to enter the ToG in the 'real world' and cheating is the only way out.  Sorry Had.  Thumbs down.<br /><br />I AM SO INSANE FOR SPENDING ALL THIS TIME SUPPORTING AN ARGUMENT THAT I DIDN'T AGREE WITH!!!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance.  Mine above all others  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 22:45:27
subject: <b>about Moraine and Lanfear</b>
body:
I have always thought that Lanfear and Moraine somehow witched bodies and abilities.  When Lanfear comes back as Cyndane, she has the capability of maybe a strong modern Aes Sedai.  I know this has nothing to do with the posting, but I saw it in the thread.  About getting into the tower of Genghi, the only way to beat those creepy A's and E's is to cheat.  I think that the One Power is cheating.  I have always believed that the One Power and True Power are not naturally given to humans. It was at one time brought out in the people of Rand land.  So Rand or some channeler is goign to have to help get Moraine out, cause the Dark One or Moridin got Cyndane out.


created: 2004-01-21 04:01:14
subject: <b>Nobody but Perrin, Slayer, or Birgitte could do it</b>
body:
A good topic to bring up, but I don't believe that the tower could be entered using the Power and Gateways.  In SR Perrin followed Slayer in &quot;The Wolf Dream&quot; to the Tower of Ghenjei.  There Perrin saw Birgitte and was told to leave rather quickly.  (I'm sorry I don't have any of the books with me right now and I cannot look any of this up right now.)  The only living characters who know anything about the Finn are Rand, Matt, Birgitte(though her memory seems to be fading), Luc, Tairen and Myan nobility, and any other Aes Sedai who may have studied breifly as Moiriane did of the Finn and the ter'angreal.  If any of the main characters were to go after Moiraine, I believe it would have to be Perrin under the guidence of Birgitte.  However, Perrin doesn't know the purpose of the ter'angreal and I'm not sure Birgitte knows the whole deal if anything about Moiraine.<br />In my opinion a rescue is out of the question and if we were to see Moiraine again, it would be she who got herself out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inflation would be much easier to endure if we lived in a third world country that made trade with coffee beans.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Range <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Right Hand of the Blade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Duke of Boiling Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> Culinary Ruffian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 06:34:23
subject: <b>Gateway to Tel'aran'rhiod</b>
body:
Egwene made a portal from the &quot;real world&quot; to Tel'aran'rhiod when she was summoned to the Hall in Salidar...


created: 2002-05-18 13:49:25
subject: <b>Good thinking</b>
body:
I like this theory. It kind of makes sense with the origins of the oath rod, too, if it truly is one of the Nine Rods of Dominion from the AoL. After all, when calling an Aes Sedai to account, the other Aes Sedai of the time would probably want a way to get answers from them without some of the other side effects of normal compulsion.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 15:43:39
subject: <b>Hmmm Interesting</b>
body:
I like the idea that the Oath rod uses a form of lasting Compulsion and that the stress from fighting it causes Aes Sedai to have shorter life spans.  That could explain why some live much longer than others (Cadsuane for example).  I seem to remeber Semirhage thinking that she went over to the shadow cause she was to be &quot;bound&quot; for tormenting the people she went to heal.  That could be a reference to the oath road as was used in the Age of Legends, but I dont know if it could be one of the Nine Rods cause the Shaido have a near duplicate of it with them that they use to bind galina.  So unless the rods were duplicated or all did something similiar the Oath rod isnt one of the Nine.


created: 2002-05-18 16:09:29
subject: <b>Stimulating...</b>
body:
You are on to something.  Keep it up.  Something I hadn't thought about and unable to help with ideas.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 18:40:57
subject: <b>A definate possibility</b>
body:
Hey,  you've got a great idea there.  I can't help seeing the similarities (and differences) between Compulsion and the Oath Rod.  In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were Compulsion warp factor 10 lol.<br /><br />Oh and it's nice to know there's a fellow Jamie on here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Annatar, the Gift-Lord<br />Teacher of Ringcraft<br />Forger of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />And the future <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-18 20:18:17
subject: <b>oath rod compulsion</b>
body:
despite the comments of the admin, it's quite possible that the oath rod is a superior form of compulsion.  a lot of stuff in this theory adds up very well.<br /><br />however, if the Aes Sedai have #3 and the Shaido have #111, they can't be two of the Nine Rods of Dominion...they appear too common.  besides, didn't one of the forsaken refer to them as Binding Rods?  i think the Dominion Rods would have been much more...


created: 2002-05-18 22:42:25
subject: <b>Re: Oath Rod/Compulsion</b>
body:
I like some of your ideas here.  I dont think that the person under the influence of the compulsion neccessarily has to idolize the weaver, it just makes that person easier to control.  And in most of the compulsion we have seen, it has been to get someone to do something, but that isnt to say someone couldnt be compulsed not to do something.  &quot;To speak no word that is untrue, to make no weapon, to not use the One Power as a weapon except in the last defense of your life, your Warders life or another sister.&quot;  I like it!!!


created: 2002-05-19 01:18:25
subject: <b>Problems/Questions</b>
body:
The Oath Rod only works on women who can channel.  Compulsion works on anyone.  The account quoted wherein Verin uses a form of Compulsion explicitly states that the weaves themselves are harmless.  This suggests to me that it is what Verin is compelling the AS to DO that might kill them, as opposed to the weave itself. <br /> Why it is that swearing an oath on the oath rod, or binder, shortens a person's life span is unknown, but I like the idea that it comes about from the conflict created by the restriction that prevents a person from doing what they want to do.  This is a good explanation as to why people such as Cadsuane have lived so long.  It also gives a reason as to why the Black Ajah swear their own trinity of oaths, otherwise they might be very short lived, indeed!<br />  Another point is, that as far as I know, strong compulsion does not make a person appear &quot;ageless&quot;, whatever that means.  The ageless look is undoubtedly due to being bound to the oaths, as is the limited lifespan; I'm curious as to how long people like Siuan and Leane will live, now that they've been freed from their oaths.  Is their youthful appearance a sign that they have a whole lifetime ahead of them ( 700-800 years?) or are their lifespans still limited, due to the fact they have been bound in the past?<br /> This leads to the queston as to whether or not anyone was ever freed from binding in the AoL, which I doubt, as only the worst crimes required people to be bound against what they would otherwise do.  Was the limited lifespan deliberately built into the binder, as part of the punishment?  Was the ageless look deliberately built into it so that criminals would be easily identified?  If so, how could those people who couldn't channel, and were restricted with a binding chair identified?  And was there a method for binding men who could channel, and did such devices have the same side effects on men as the binders we are familiar with have on women?<br />I guess we'll just have to RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 01:45:19
subject: <b>9 rods</b>
body:
perhaps they all say 3? 111 is three in a sense. Maybe another has a triangle on it. Another could have a cross (trinity), who knows. We have only seen two of such rods.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 14:38:47
subject: <b>Perhaps</b>
body:
Maybe the Oath Rod's shortening of the lifespan is due to the way it is used.  Perhaps the Aes Sedai are using the wrong flows of spirit and that causes the agelessness and the shortened life.  I believe that many terangreal are used wrong.  For example the one they use to make warder capes,  I believe that it also can be used to make the material that Grandeal's gown is made of (Streith??).  In conclusion I think that the negative side effects are possibly from using it wrong.<br /><br />Or it could be that it is one of the Nine and that the Nine must be used together in order to counteract the negative side effects.


created: 2002-05-25 01:45:54
subject: <b>Clarification</b>
body:
I have been pleased and suprised by the interest and discussion.  Thanx to everyone who has commented.  First off, I completely agree that compulsion as we've seen thus far in tWoT is not exactly like oath binding, but, as I said, I noticed some similarities...&quot;coincidences.&quot;  I suspect it might be a form of Compulsion, perhaps in a distilled form -- pure and powerful.  No frills, like adoration, dim-wittedness and brown-nosing.  Just a straight forward, permanent weave that the person essentially casts on herself, since the one holding it must say the words that will bind her, whether or not she's doing the channeling (hmmm...new thought...perhaps that's why it's permanent...she actually has to say the words herself).<br /><br />Now, something I've been researching and hypothesizing about since Baphomet23's post above sparked my interest...  Does the oath rod only work on women who can channel?  Do we really know that for sure?  I don't think so;  I suspect that it works on male channelers, too.  In CoS, Spears, p811, Sammael says straight out to Sevanna that it only works on women, and that he will bring what she needs when she captures Rand.  But is he telling her the truth?  He wants Sevanna to need his assistance, so he doesn't have even the smallest reason to tell her the truth, if an oath rod can in fact bind men who can channel.  Since it was made in the AoL, when men and women worked together with the power, why on earth would they go to the trouble of making the ter'angreal only work on one sex and not the other?  After all, a criminal is a criminal.  Would the punishment for crimes be different for men than women in the AoL?  I think not, since they were supposed to be an enlightened society.  I think both sexes would be bound against future criminal activity, and their lifespans shortened due to the internal conflict, with the ageless face for recognition (like the mark placed on Cain in Genesis 4:15).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...but that's just my opinion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Now resuming lurk mode<br /><br />Brown Ajah<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Hmmm...fascinating<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> (scritch, scri, scritch)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 09:26:07
subject: <b>Binding men?</b>
body:
Couldn't men bound by an Oath be rendered harmless before being driven mad by the Taint? <br />This seems to me to be a possible flaw in the story.  As Jame points out, criminals were bound, and it seems safe to assume that both men and women were found amongst those who committed crimes.  However, if men could be bound to an oath, why not bind them to oaths such as not using the OP as a women, like modern AS??  Was it not the destruction caused by the men during the Breaking that caused such distrust of people channelling that brought about the 3 oaths in the first place?<br />So, we know binders did exist in the AOL.  Once Lews Therin and his companions went mad and started the breaking, why were the surviving, sane male AS not bound to an oath not to kill or destroy with the OP??  This might have prevented the worst of the Breaking altogether.<br />Or does madness circumvent the hold such an Oath might have?  I doubt it, but that's just opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 12:16:22
subject: <b>I like your Style</b>
body:
I posted a Theory similar to this one on another site last year, so of course I agree with it. <br /><br />Though I did come up with a big problem with it, most Aes Sedai have similar life spans, but some Aes Sedai would have less reason to lie, i.e. Browns, Where as Blues have a greater reason to, and I am sure this would of been remarked on, as it would be quite odd if the Browns lived hundreds of years longer than anyone else. So though it does seem like a great explanation for Cadsuanne (sp) age, it just does not really match up properly, though I am sure you are close <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Destiny, you cannot destroy my Destineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee<br />*PoP*<br />-Infamous last words</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 04:01:27
subject: <b>another link to compulsion</b>
body:
If the restriction created by a binder is purely mental, like a permanent compulsion, then this would mean that an insane person could not be effectivley bound.  This in turn would mean that men from the AOL couldn't have been bound against using the OP to destroy in an attempt to prevent the breaking.<br /> However, the changes that occurred in Siuan and Leane after they were stilled suggests strongly that the binder in some way effects that part of a person which enables them to channel, and I can see no reason why a mental block would be removed by stilling.<br /> Maybe it's a bit of both, but the fact that Galina can still think about chaneling w/out permission after being bound against it goes against a mental block. There's got to be something more ther.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-02 02:35:42
subject: <b>Breaking Oath Rod + etc.</b>
body:
The Oath Rod binds a person only as far as the person is aware. Thus, any Aes Sedai can tell a lie, as long as they themselves believe it to be true. So even if a man was bound to not kill anyone, once they went insane, they would not know they were killing people, rending the Oath useless.<br /><br />Also, the agelessness and shortened lifespan may be artifacts of the Tower binder. We've seen no evidence that other binders have the same effect.


created: 2002-08-17 06:35:30
subject: <b>Agelessness and lifespans and binders</b>
body:
Actually, there are a couple of references within passages dealing with the Forsaken which suggest that both the 'Ageless' look and the shortened lifespan were associated with Binders, in general.  One of them comes from a Semirhage POV in LOC, the other from a conversation between Sammael and Graendal, either in LOC or ACOS.  It seems unlikely that it is unique to the Oath Rod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 17:26:09
subject: <b>Good, but...</b>
body:
The thing about achetypes didn't really make that much sense to me. I agree that the Finn have a vulnerability to iron, music and maybe light/fire, but I don't see why it makes any difference whether or not Rand wields music or Thom does. (The courage thing is somewhat of a puzzle. I think that that just indicates that they have to be united in their efforts.) I think whoever is there is going to be determined more by chance than anything else. I do of course see Moirane as being rescued and having some part in the last battle. A theory that I would like to see would be more about how it is that she lived while Lanfear died, also why the connection was torn and her bond was broken with Lan. When I get some time I may start writing that one.<br />Kael<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su camino.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I would rather be feared then loved <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-19 18:38:10
subject: <b>Oh no.</b>
body:
Not this again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 18:50:06
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
I disagree. Read my (Balefried) response to Hads theory about getting in to the tower. If i had read this one first, i would have put it all in here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 19:06:20
subject: <b>Mat for sure.</b>
body:
I think he will be there for certain.  In TEotW, after he gets the dagger, he is on the ship with Bayle.  Bayle tells him about the tower.  (p. 356 in my book)  And reveals some facts about it, which he would not know if he were not interested in it.  And of course Mat seems very interested in it and says, &quot;I'll bet there's treasure inside, a thing like that must have been made to protect something valuable.&quot;  <br /><br />Mat might want to go there becasue it might help fill in some of the blanks in his memory.  An I think it would be fitting for Bayle to come along too, as he is interested in it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 19:10:58
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I never gave much thought to Rand leading the rescue party.  Odd?  Rand is the Dragon Reborn after all.  If Moraine is required to help defeat the DO who better to rescue her than the strongest Ta'veren alive.  Rand owes Moraine after all that she has done for him and I think looking back he realizes this now.<br /><br />  Of all the Theories on this subject I like this the best.  Although as you said others have lead you to this.  Thanks for taking the time to put it on paper and adding your thoughts.  We have all the players.  Who will put it together correctly before Robert Jordan revieles this to us?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 19:59:52
subject: <b>just adding to a good theory</b>
body:
First off I think all 3 will go for one simple reason... Morain has saved all 3 of them many times... its about time they returned the favor for once.  This could also be one of those &quot;if Perrin is not there something bad will happen to you... very bad&quot; type things.<br /><br />This could also set up some very... odd twist in the book.  Rand could make a wish that would cause him to go blind... Mat could save Rands sight by giving up one of his eyes... and well... many more things that I am sure all of you could think up better then me.<br /><br />My main point is that Lan and Moraine saved Rand, Mat, Perrin and Thom in book 1 tEotW.  It would only be fitting that all three team up to save the life of the one person who has saved all of yours... in a way... they have toh to Moraine and don't even know it.


created: 2002-05-19 20:57:53
subject: <b>anther thought...</b>
body:
It could have a major effect having all three ta'veren in the world fo the Finns at once.  In Tear, Moraine remarked on the fact that two ta'veren entering the twisted door at once caused massive reverberation and could have destroyed it.  It may not have any effect depending on how they get there (probably not through a twisted door), but like I said, something may come of having all three ta'veren in Finnland at once.


created: 2002-05-19 22:35:37
subject: <b>One small thing</b>
body:
I like this theory, and see only one problem with it.  That is Perrin going to the tower of Ghenji in the wolf dream.  If he did this, he would be more of a liability than a help.  Birgitte told him that it's even harder to leave Ghenji in the world of dreams than in the real world.  <br />I believe that the location of the tower may be obtained from the wolf dream, but if Perrin's going in, he's going in the flesh.  <br />Aside from this...Great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 01:01:09
subject: <b>Doubt it any time soon...</b>
body:
If you had those 4 it'll take atleast 1 book to get to a point when they all together...or Mat could be fire..thom music,and other 2 could be ppl with them..


created: 2002-05-20 01:43:41
subject: <b>2 more points to chew on</b>
body:
One...  The Fins seemed to have a hard problem dealing with the 2 ta'veren in the tower at once.  Imagine all 3,  It might be enought to disract them.  Even Cheat.  2 Moiraine said that most Aes Sedei felt the need to show afterwards, witch shows a diffrence in the experiance for channelers.  Rand never mentioned it, so maybe it is just female Chanelers.  So if what they have to do is related to the one power.  Mat's Courage might be the fact that his amulet will prevent them from exacting thier will on him.  Think about it, They had to give him the amulet (he asked for it), and they had to let him leave (he asked for it), but if the amulet were a weakness of thiers, it would explain why they tried to kill him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 05:49:53
subject: <b>What about Olver?</b>
body:
I think that Olvers fascination with Snakes and Foxes shows that he too will take part in the rescue.  Also I believe Mat will be the fire.  He will learn to make fireworks and take them in with him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I the shadow of time or is time a figment of my imagination.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Never underestimate human stupidity.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 11:54:02
subject: <b>Mat loosing an eye</b>
body:
Have you ever noticed Mat say the line &quot;Stab my eye!&quot;? I think I have heard Nynaeve say it before too. Anyway, what would happen if Mat says this expression during a moment of surprise with the foxes? Would they make good on his request?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-21 19:11:38
subject: <b>Yah know what?</b>
body:
Yah, know, it'd be nice if you actually went to the theory post before you posted this. You would have found an almost identical post. *Yawns* I'm disappointed. Nothing new was really said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 18:43:08
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
Your theory follows through very nicely, and I would have to agree on most of the points. But I'm still not convinced that the whole saying/prophecy applies entirely to the Finns. The whole Tower of Genji thing is certainly important, but is it so important that it warrants the assembly of the three most important characters? (Who by the way haven't been together since the beginning of tSR in Tear)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 23:17:11
subject: <b>Three Ta'veren?</b>
body:
I don't think so. The time Perrin has to be there for Rand is when he gets his hand chopped off to release him from the 'sad' a'dam. It makes much more sense for Olver (especially if he's Gaidal) to be courage to strengthen and Mat to be the fire to blind.<br />This is all assuming that there are four archetypes to start off with- it may be that the four items/elements just need to be used together at the same time, and there _are_ no people directly associated with each one.<br />As has been said, this is more of a comment on a pre-existing theory than something new. Nice thoughts, but nothing earth- (or Westlands for that matter) shattering.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 03:59:45
subject: <b>Yes, what about olver?</b>
body:
I think that Olver will play a really important part too, since he likes to play with the games so much. Mat will accidentaly bring him or get an idea from him on how to win without cheating. But maybe with cheating a bit?.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />I believe Olver will have a very important rule on how to defeat the Aelfin and the Eelfin without cheating. Hey, hes Gaidal cain reborn, right?! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-05-23 05:42:45
subject: <b>Mat's Eye</b>
body:
I had a though about Mat losing one of his eyes as I was reading this.<br /><br />Lets say that that Mat will represents courage, well what if his courage is giving up an eye.  You'd have to be pretty couragous to volunteer an eye, I know I wouldn't let someone take one of my eyes without a fight.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />ShadowBlade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and say the opposite.&quot; - Sam Levenson


created: 2002-05-23 08:14:04
subject: <b>BaH</b>
body:
The courage to strengthen part is referring to Egwene as seen in the chapter &quot;Courage to strengthen&quot; in LoC. Mat will play a part, he'll be the fire. He'll learn from that illuminator of his to make fire to blind them finns... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 04:56:07
subject: <b>yes, I think you are right</b>
body:
so, it is not to be a canon, then. I must say I like this better. using human qualities instead of something like a weapon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 04:17:17
subject: <b>I have to disagree with ALL of you.</b>
body:
I think Moiraine is out already, and you just may see a theory soon on why from Columbo and I. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 20:37:17
subject: <b>oh, funny!!!!</b>
body:
What <b>Windsor</b> said:<br /><i>Have you ever noticed Mat say the line &quot;Stab my eye!&quot;? I think I have heard Nynaeve say it before too. Anyway, what would happen if Mat says this expression during a moment of surprise with the foxes? Would they make good on his request?</i><br /><br />LOL!!!  That would be great!!<br /><br />As for the idea of all 3 ta'veren in action together:  I like it.  I'd like to see it.  But... what about Olver?  Of course, nothing says that only 4 people should go in together.  Maybe Olver will accompany the 4 and give them the idea on how to cheat the Finns.<br />


created: 2002-06-04 10:42:05
subject: <b>link breaking</b>
body:
I go to thinking on this read through about how when people traveled to the parallel worlds the warders and Aei Sedai seemed to be effected more then the others.  I wonder if leaving the world gives the feeling like they died.  since they are not in the world anymore they can't pin point where they are.  maybe the fact that moraine was linked gave her an edge over lanfear.  lanfear was killed but moraine is stuck in the finn world.  When Everyone comes together Nyn and Lan will come and stay outside as a rear guard.  When they open the tower Lan will feel moraine again.


created: 2002-06-09 16:45:52
subject: <b>Good Theory, but...</b>
body:
I don't think Rand will partake in the rescuing of Moiraine. I think he'll be surprised as heck when Moiraine shows up at wherever he is. Rand thinks Moiraine is long dead and long gone, and Min doesn't want to tell him that he'll fail without Moiraine. Eh-henyway, everything else seems likely. Maybe Olver/Gaidal Cain will carry a torch into the Tower of Ghenji; that'd work for fire, wouldn't it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-28 21:15:53
subject: <b>Very good!</b>
body:
Very good, but like FAQ, I think that we're going to need more courage than just Mat.  Olver is, supposedly, the rebirth of Gaidal Cain (poor, poor Birgitte...), and he needs to get into this as well.  and, it could be any channeler, not just Rand.  if perrin finds out first, he'd go to one of the closest channelers he could find, 'cuz perrin's like that.  Mat on the other hand hates to be heroic.  we need more courage just for that reason.  Put olver into the equation, and we just might have something, but it's one of the best theories i've heard!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Daishara Damodred<br />The Sword of the Dragon<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Dragon Warrior<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My best friend is Min Farshaw...LYLAS!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> needs to kick <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />'s AZZ!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-23 21:58:37
subject: <b>yep</b>
body:
I had also made the guess that these four would be the ones to rescue Moraine.  Also something that Lauriana Sedai brought up, the three ta'veren working together.<br /><br />Remember what happened in Tear?  Mat enters the 'Finnworld and at the very end of his questioning, things start shaking.  The 'Finn say something to the effect of &quot;Get out!  There's too many!&quot;  Or some other such remark.  And you will remember that when Mat popped out he saw Rand and Moraine emerge as well.  I think the 'Finn are scared of having too many ta'veren or channelers within their world.  Also, it did seem to create some type of natural disaster within the ter'angreal. (the whole place started shaking if I remember correctly)<br /><br />So if all three go in, I suspect that would be enough to scare the 'Finn's pants off.


created: 2003-01-02 10:26:47
subject: <b>Losing his eye accidently?</b>
body:
How would that save the world? He's supposed to give up half the light of the world (an eye) to save it, remember? It also sounds like he will choose to do it, but maybe that's just me.<br /><br />I like the theory though.


created: 2003-01-26 13:06:28
subject: <b>re:</b>
body:
yeah thats all i got wrong with this theory, is that all those ta'veren would tear Finnland apart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Dovie'andi Se Tovya Sagain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 17:28:16
subject: <b>One small point</b>
body:
I do not think all three ta'veren could enter the world of the snakes and foxes without destroying it, or so Moiraine's comments on the matter seem to indicate.  And Rand will most likely be much too busy to embark on such an endeaver.  I believe that perhaps Thom, Mat, and Olver (Gaidal Cain?) would be the ones to complete this mission. I'm not so sure about Perrin, since I haven't read Crossroads of Twilight just yet.


created: 2003-05-05 03:09:04
subject: <b>Maybe so...</b>
body:
Being that Mat and Perrin could practically run into each other somewhat soon, I can see them being involved. I have a hard time placing Rand into the equation though.<br /><br />One thing I do like that you mentioned, was the way Perrin rescued Faile before. I have thought on this a long time. It seems to me that if Perrin can save someone through the wolf dream, and we know that he can get to the Tower in the dream also....well, then why couldn't he do it again?


created: 2003-06-17 17:47:13
subject: <b>ugh, some year i'll write a comment connected to the theory.</b>
body:
A few thoughts. They're all jumbled up, so don't expect anything particularly coherent.<br /><br />1. Cyndane- i'd swear, (though i'm not sure where) i remember her saying she was held captive by the finn people things. Ergo, she survived falling through the ter'angreal, so presumably Moiraine did too. I seem also to remember that there was something about not mentioning anything to do with the shadow or summat like that to do with the finn people things. from this i draw the conclusion that they don't like the &quot;evil&quot; people. Lanfear, if she is Cyndane, would have had to've died sometime between falling through the doorway, and reappearing, i e, reborn. But, if she was held captive, she wasn't killed straight away. So what happened? Anyhow. Despite suggestions that Moiraine used compulsion (a thought i won't dismiss) i don't think she's evil (Lan would never've allowed it. ever.) So, she could have survived where Lanfear didn't. Phew<br />2. I must confess, i'm puzzled. In the ryhme Courage to strengthen... etc, who does the courage strengthen? Think about it. The last three lines are about ways to hurt the finn people things, but would that courage strengthen the finn or the pothers?<br />3. as a totally general point, couldn't anyone appear to be anyone? With inverted tied off weves of the mirror of mists thing, the person wouldn't have to channel to maintain the mirror, so they could be anyone. i think that it's very difficult to be certain unless it's from their point of view. But maybe i'm just paranoid.<br /><br />See? told ya it was incoherent. I blame lack of sleep, and i'll go and rectify that now. c ya.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The almost but not quite totallly not lucid one <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />? Decisions decisions....</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 09:01:50
subject: <b>Olver</b>
body:
I'm fairly certain Jordan has publically stated Olver is NOT Gaidal Cain the association merely a red herring, but that he has an important role to play however. <br /><br />Likely in figuring out how to beat the Finn.


created: 2006-04-08 19:33:42
subject: <b>Almost!</b>
body:
in KoD, it says that the other man that will go with Mat and Thom is not an aquaintance of Moiraine's. Therefore, the third man is not Perrin.


created: 2008-07-11 13:50:59
subject: <b>Courage to Strengthen ...</b>
body:
Courage to Strengthen<br />Fire to Blind<br />Music to Dazzle<br />Iron to bind<br /><br />While I have no idea where, I am sure that I picked this up from another person's post:<br /><br />We know from previous persons' visits that the visitors to the Eelfinn/Aelfinn world(s)are asked if they have any instruments of iron, fire or musical instruments. Can we assume they are not permitted to enter further should they have them on their person? <br /><br />If so, that means such items would need to be hidden. &quot;Snakes and Foxes&quot; alludes to the need to cheat to win, it is impossible otherwise. Cheating would then be in the form of concealing these items.<br /><br />Fire to Blind: Alludra, the Illuminator, created matches. They are a source for fire, but not until they are struck.<br /><br />Music to dazzle: Elayne and Aviendha discovered a ter-angreal that plays music<br /><br />Iron to bind: The production of cuendillar starts with source-iron and is transformed to heart-stone by weaves with the one power. While it is not iron, it is sourced from it.<br /><br />Courage....I'm lost on this one.<br /><br />A note: with the music box ter-angreal, I wonder if this might indicate Elayne or Aviendha joining Mat and Thom on their adventure to the Tower of Ghenji. <br /><br />Elayne presents the best case: her respect for Matt grows throughout the novels and she makes an effort to repay her 'toh' to him.<br /><br />Aviendha stands in as my second choice because her first sister Elayne is pregnant. It seems unlikely she would allow Elayne to do something so dangerous when with child. This could lead to the vision of Aviendha with 4 babies; two somehow different. <br /><br />Does it seem possible that Aviendha carries Elayne's babies for some reason? Min's visions of Elayne only say that her babies (not necessarily Elayne herself) are safe until they are born. My only clue towards this refers to the Aiel Maidens. It is said that when they are with child, wise ones arrange for someone else to take the baby without anyone ever knowing where it came from. It seems like a stretch, but could the Aiel Wise Ones know some way of surrogate birthing; well, maybe the ones who can use the one power?


created: 2002-05-23 14:36:50
subject: <b>Too Complex</b>
body:
I think it is obvious why the prophecies the seanchen have are different. The emperor of the seanchen thrives on total obedience. The idea that he would serve someone was totally alien to him so he orded that the prophecies are changed slightly so the dragon serves the empire. As he has some much power over the seanchen it would be belived that what he said was true so in a couple of generations the old pure prophecies would have been forgotten.


created: 2002-05-23 15:37:09
subject: <b>The twain _could_ meet</b>
body:
If the Empress (MSLF) dies over in Seanchan, who becomes the embodiment of the Crystal Throne.  Perhaps the DotNM.  If Rand should find himself kneeling to her the two prophecies mesh, even if it is not a servant/master relationship.  Remember, we know he will do whatever it takes... whatever, and if Cadsuane manages to teach him humility, it wouldn't be so hard for him.<br /><br /><br /><br />Just a Peasant<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Find your soulmate, Homer&quot;


created: 2002-05-23 15:38:05
subject: <b>Another Misconception</b>
body:
I am starting to see a pattern in these prophecies, this is a good catch but again - the Crystal Throne could refer to the physical throne and not the ruler itself - the throne could be a ter'angreal or some such thing and kneeling in front of it could be how to activate it. Plus there is no mention that the Dragon Reborn needs to kneel in front of it with the ruler's knowledge - what if the beggar Rand supposedly becomes wanders over to Seanchan and kneels as something other than the Dragon Reborn?<br /><br />Um, RAFO?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 15:39:21
subject: <b>I completely agree</b>
body:
Just as you said, Ishamael sent Hawkwing's army across the ocean with a small twist of the Prophecies, so that when they Return, they fight the Dragon instead of join him. What could be better to weaken the Light and put more disorder???<br /><br />Hopefully Mat is here to settle evrything right! That's what make him a key to victory.


created: 2002-05-23 16:26:56
subject: <b>I never thought of it that way</b>
body:
I just thought it was a bit of Seanchan propaganda, made up to tie themsleves in with the Prophecies for certain.  Something to make people in the early days of Seanchan see the Crystal Throne as extremely important, and it stuck in official translations<br /><br />Mortecareus the Nefarious<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Lord of Chaos <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of Books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Teller of Bad Jokes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 17:12:58
subject: <b>Ahhh</b>
body:
I really like kinghomer's comment... Bowing to the Crystal Throne doesn't necessarily mean the Empress (MSLF), or the DoNM... However, bowing doesn't necessarily mean being subjected to, and letting them command you. It could be a diplomatic mission of some sorts, and what do you do when you meet a king, queen, or Empress (MSLF)? You bow (curtsy, what have you). Interesting theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 17:34:00
subject: <b>Hmm....</b>
body:
I never really considered these possiblilites before. I just figured that Rand would in some way figure out how to bow to the throne and not be held down. I think that even if he does kneel before it, even if it is a ploy, I think that some people will see him as being subservient to the CT. I like the ideas though.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 18:35:50
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
If Ishamael had the Seanchan believe that they needed to have the Dragon serve them, then they would fight through everything they could to get at Rand.  This contradicts the other Kareathean Cycle, which states that Rand must have the Seanchan serve him.  Meaning that Rand must do anything possible to prevent being taken over by the Seanchean.<br /><br />Great wawrs would result and this would help spread lots of chaos, as Sahi'tan wants. <br /><br />I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 18:48:59
subject: <b>Seanchan propaganda</b>
body:
I disagree that Ishy sent a modified version with Luthair.  There was no empire before he arrived and therefore no crystal throne to be sat on, it existed I'm sure but who knows who controled it at that time.  I also disagree that Seanchan might have had their own copies as they were written down on Rand's side of the ocean after the breaking, and probably after the Aes Sedai lost the ability to travel, so how could it have gotten there before Luthair???<br /><br />You have to conclude from this that after the Seanchan empire had formed,years after the arrival of Luthair that the prophecy was modified to include that line.  Think about it, if you're an all powerful ruler and the prophecy say you will bow down to the dragon reborn, I doesn't do you any good to convince your people of you ominpotency.  So what do you do, loose the line, add one that makes you the all powerful.  Anyways, the prophecies are never very clear, other than the Stone of Tear, why would this one be so automatic for the Seanchan people??


created: 2002-05-24 04:31:40
subject: <b>Doesn't really matter.</b>
body:
Since Rand is the Dragon Reborn, he will fulfill every prophecy there is concerning him.  Even if he doesn't know it.  If he has to strive to fulfill the prophecy, as in he read about it and decided to do it, then its not really a prophcey in its true form.  While that may be a self-fulfilling prophecy, its too unreliable.  Also, many events that are needed to fulfill a prochecy are too obscure.  Lets say that the Empress, may she live forever, dies.  Then Tuon is the Empress by proxy. Lets say that while this event occurs she is with Mat, and Mat returns to Rand.  Rand being a gentlemen would bow to her in greeting.  Since the Empress symbolizes the Crystal Throne, that means the Seanchan version of the prophecy has been fulfilled.  See how simple prophecies can be?  Of course it could be highly complex.  Of course I then to think that the Seanchan version is the truely corrupted version.  Of course, Mat is fated to marry Tuon and become the Emporer to the Empress, the Seanchan are well on their way to becoming a part of Rand's crew.  Since we all know Mat and Rand go way back.


created: 2002-05-24 13:15:45
subject: <b>just assuming</b>
body:
i think we can speculate that every major catastrophe in the last 2000 years or so had moridin's hand in it. the guy will do whatever it takes to help the DO which in turn helps him. he just wants to live forever and wants to be on the Winning side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 14:58:57
subject: <b>Alternatively...</b>
body:
Luthair Paendrag's version of the prophecies is the real one, and Ishamael changed the ones over here. I see no reason why it couldn't be the other way around. This way, it would also be more relevant to the story - the invaders bring back the true prophecies to Rand &amp; co. and thus prevent a great disaster, or something. Ishy might, as you say, have convinced the Hawkwing that the prophecies were evil Tar Valon witches' lies. Remember that prophecies invariably come from AS who have the Foretelling - how much is AH going to trust them? Luthair may have taken them over, realizing their importance and not sharing his father's anti-One Power sentiments. Problem with your theory: Ishy could only have talked about &quot;kneeling before the Crystal Throne&quot; if either of two things was the case: 1. Ishy has the foretelling (unlikely) or 2. The Crystal Throne came from the Westlands, and LP took it over with him (possible). Otherwise, there is no way Ishy could have known anything about the Crystal Throne.<br /><br />Or possibly, the line about Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne was later added by Foretelling channelers in Seanchan. &quot;Everybody knew <i>damane</i> could foretell the future.&quot; Whether this happened before they started making channelers <i>damane</i> or after is immaterial.<br /><br />The idea of the emigrants preserving the pure version is taken from Real Life. The removal of Hawkwing's armies to Seanchan reminds me of nothing so much as the European emigrants to America (if the Americans adopted many Native American customs, that is. Perhaps RJ wishes they had, and so had the Seanchan doing so?) Much as it pains me to say it, American English is probably closer to that which Shakespeare spoke than proper English is. There is evidence that our good friend Mr. Shogsper (as he spelt it on one of the two papers we have with his name written in his own hand) spoke with an American accent. Words like &quot;normalcy&quot;, which to us in Britain seem disgusting Americanisms (I merely observe the nature of reality, colonial brothers), were actually coined in Britain and later died out here. RJ, as an American skilled in the English language, probably knows this, and may have wanted to reflect it in his writing as a justification of America's separate linguistic identity. Or perhaps I'm taking this too far. If only I wrote as much about my English set texts as I do about WoT - you've no idea how happy I would be to have WoT turn up in my English syllabus!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 18:19:10
subject: <b>Ter-angreal</b>
body:
I like kinghomer's idea about the throne being some kind of ter-angreal. When Maraj was thinking about the prophecy he also said, &quot;There would be no difficulty with al'Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues&quot;. To me this sounds like there is some use of the One Power going on, maybe in the form of Compulsion. And if none of the <i>damane</i> or <i>suldam</i> have noticed before, maybe it uses <i>saidin</i> and Rand will be able to see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 02:11:18
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
In the few glimpses we get of The Karaethon Cycle, the passage is nearly always accompanied by &quot;as translated by...&quot;  Could the differences in the Seachan prophecies be differences in translation from the Old Tongue?  There are many different translations of the Bible since it was translated from Latin.  It has been stated numerous times in the series that words have different meanings.  Isn't it possible that the phrase &#8220;...shall bind the nine moons to serve him.&#8221; could be translated to &quot;the nine moons shall bind him to serve&quot;?  That's not too far fetched.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 11:18:56
subject: <b>already been mentionend</b>
body:
Well its already been mentionend but the idea that ishamael woudl have changed it does not make any sense. It seems a bit far fetched to me, instead it is much more likely that its been altered by the crystal crown themselves.<br /><br />Medieval rulers used to do this, they would alter stories, religious text and so forth to make their rights/claims seem valid. Since many couldnt read anyways this was easily done and not noted. <br /><br />Furthermore since the seanchen are the descendents of hawking, they would have brought hte keathenon cycle(sp) to seanchen when they migrated. So the original text would be the one remaining in Rand land. Since they would have set up a new land wouldnt it also have been very easy for them to alter it. I think tihs is more possible since the seanchen seem to adore and think the empress to be a demi god if not a divine being. (like the old chinese emperors)


created: 2002-05-28 13:52:09
subject: <b>re Crystal Throne</b>
body:
In the WoRJWoT it states: The Crystal Throne itself ia a great ter'angreal that causes anyone who approaches it to feel immense awe and wonder. Of course, only the reigning monarch is ever allowed to use it.<br /><br />Just wanted to confirm a couple of posts who had suggested this.<br /><br />So, it is possible that Rand may kneel to it, but then is able to break its control over him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 01:36:23
subject: <b>Eyeless Myrddraal...</b>
body:
I like your ideas a *great* deal.  There's nothing better than finding out that what you always thought to be true is nothing but a huge lie.  <br /><br />Well...it's great reading about it; only rarely does that kind of thing work out for the best in reality. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 20:27:23
subject: <b>both</b>
body:
Excellente theory.  I had forgotten about Ishy whispering in Hawkwing's ear.<br /><br />However, I think it's important to remember the connection between &quot;Truth&quot; and &quot;Ishamael/Moridin.&quot;  I don't think the guy actually lies.  Like an Aes Sedai, he merely twists the truth.  He's too cocky and secure in his own power to lie very often.  So perhaps he merely twisted that particular prophecy.  It's not a whole different version; it's a corrupt version.<br /><br />Maybe Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne because it's a ter'angreal made to inspire abject awe in all who view it.  Afterwards, Rand will probably stand up and say &quot;What the F?  Am I insane?&quot;<br />Or maybe Rand will &quot;serve&quot; the Crystal Throne because he owes some debt to Mat, who is married to Tuon by that time, and she has become the new Empress over the Seanchan.  Rand will repay his debt, thereby serving the Empress.  From there she will agree to unite the Seanchan with his people.<br /><br />In any case, I think the future relationship between Tuon and Mat (as well as the emerging knowledge about sul'dam) will result in a benign relationship between main Randland nations and the Seanchan.


created: 2002-06-01 22:20:02
subject: <b>Disagree but, I loved your theory</b>
body:
It is nice to see new ideas being posted here. I personally would believe that both versions are corrupt, however Rand does seem to be fulfilling one of them so who knows. As for Ishy, I don't really think that he meddled before it was sent to Seanchan. It seems more likely that it was tampered with while it was over there. The chrystal throne could have been something that was created here and given as a gift, but more likely it was created in seanchan or taken from those who ruled before, I seem to remember someone mentioning how use of the power was often for political gain. This seems right up that alley. Still a good theory.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I would rather be feared then loved <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-06 11:47:44
subject: <b>Unlikely that the Seanchan one is real</b>
body:
If Ishy did make the changes, and it would be like the slimy little bugger, then it makes sense to change the one that went with Luthair.<br /><br />Making changes to one volume and making sure that nobody else has a copy when the ships sailed is easy. Making changes to every copy in the Westlands, including those in Tar Valon would be an incredible feat. After a long ocean voyage to a barbaric land, Luthair having read the book from cover to cover, he would arrogantly assume the native's version was corrupted. See history for examples of that.<br /><br />As someone confirmed, the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal and Rand may well kneel in front of it. Most coronations of a king start in front of the throne before the new king mounts it and assumes power. Now that would be cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 18:37:03
subject: <b>Seanchan censorship</b>
body:
I always figure that the Seanchan version was &quot;censored&quot; by early Seanchan rulers, and that only the censored version remained.


created: 2002-07-02 05:08:54
subject: <b>Ishy's Chair</b>
body:
Ishy could have sent the chair along with Luthair with the doctor prophecies. The people on the mainland fear the Dragon Reborn the most, after shadowspawn (and some fear the DR more than shadowspawn). Thus, once the DR is declared, people will follow out of fear, respect for the prophecies, etc., but they will follow him because he is the most powerful. But, if prophecies say that he will kneel to someone else, then the awe and fear inspired by the DR is diminished.<br />This is evident throughout the book, especially after Dumai Wells. Rebellion brews up in Tear and Cairhien because people believe that Rand knelt to the White Tower. And at the end of books, there's usually rumors about one group kneeling to another, which make people uneasy at best.<br />So Ishy, by sending the chair and doctored prophecies to Seachan, ensures that when they return, they will bring a prophecy which'll unsettle the mainland.


created: 2002-08-17 01:02:50
subject: <b>why cant both be right?</b>
body:
Ok rand neels to the cristle throne right, but in doing so he binds it to himself,why not? Think about it if its a ter angrel then why cant it work both ways? and even if that doesnt happen what if both are whronge and like someone said it was becaus of bad translating,i mean only mat seems fluent in the langedge and thats whene he doesnt realize whats he is saing.so they both interpereted it whronge.it might not even be talking about rand ,it might be talking about mat.something like oh i dont knowe who mat was sopposed to be before dont recall the name but whattever the guys name was whould neel at the throne and by marring the bloody daughter of the bloody nine moons binds them to him. hey it makes a sens and it could be in the prophecies becaus mat and perrin are conected to rand . he needs them to fulfill his destiny,wich it doesnt say is to die but to fall this doent meen exactly that hell die it just implies.who nowes i cant whait to find out.


created: 2002-09-03 18:21:49
subject: <b>Both versions could certainly be true</b>
body:
2 things...<br /><br />In resp. to Huon asking how the prophecies could have gotten to Seanchan prior to Luthair, before the empire, Seanchan was ruled by Aes Sedai constantly battling each other for control. Who's to say those Aes Sedai couldn't have also independently foretold the prophecies? <br /><br />Furthermore, the collar and wrists male-controlling &quot;a'dam&quot; has the property of first allowing a woman (or women) to control a man then eventually he regains control over himself then begins to be able to control the holder of the &quot;a'dam.&quot; Given that Tuon has been trained as a sul'dam, I see a major set up for her to use the &quot;a'dam&quot;, thus bowing Rand to her control, then he will regain control and make her bend to him. <br /><br />Sounds like a Theory in the making. Hmmm. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 02:47:15
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
It is by bowing to the CT that he will bind the Nine Moons to his service? The two do not have to be mutually exclusive the way I see it...<br /><br />Sorry, I don't have two cents, can I get change back on a dime?? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Silver"><i>Harsh world be damned,<br />let's make a stand...</i></font> <br /><br /><font color="orange">Saknar Korybj&#246;rnen&#8482;<br /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-06 03:04:17
subject: <b>Ishy could have been in Seanchan</b>
body:
I tend to buy the argument that Ishy had a hand in altering the prophecies.  (Even if both can be true, it still sows discord if Randlanders think they are in conflict - which serves Ishy's ends nicely.)  But I have a hard time believing that Ishy would have handed Luthair a going-away present.<br /><br />Why couldn't he have just popped on over to Seanchan and wiggle in behind the scenes like he did with Hawkwing?  I don't see why Ishy would have any reason to only concentrate on the Westlands.  He's probably been all over the place.  This is a conflict involving the whole world that Ishy has been nurturing for 3000 years.  <br /><br />I would like to see more posts on the activities of the DO and Forsaken involving other cultures.  (Semirhage as Anath is probably just the beginning.)


created: 2003-06-08 15:01:27
subject: <b>Could have been Ishy</b>
body:
Iagree with most of your theory.<br /><br />Just an aside--I have always believed that Tuon`s POV in WH, What a Veil Can Hide, &quot;or all would be lost&quot; referred to The Seanchan`s Conquest would fail.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-23 21:53:15
subject: <b>the Sanchean version can't be the true version</b>
body:
Someone said something about the sanchean possibly bringing the correct version, but i take issue with that because it said that there was a version in existence there before luthair paendrag that was considered wrong by the current empire. It sounds like everyone started off with the right version, and then ishy sent a screwed up version... and he certainly is capable of lyeing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 23:08:44
subject: <b>The throne</b>
body:
What if instead of being some sort of compulsion, the Crystal Throne is some form of ta'veren, which is why the empress uses it, it makes her terribly important.  Then both of the forms of prophesy could be correct, Rand would kneel to the Crystal Throne, but because he's insanely strong ta'veren, the throne doesn't work like it should, and then the Nine Moons are bound to serve him


created: 2009-01-30 01:45:58
subject: <b>majority rules</b>
body:
The version used in Seandar before the consolidation does not mention serving the Crystal Throne. Neither does the version as it is used in modern Randland. Rand himself has studied several different translations and would probably have made a remark if any of them mentioned him bowing down to anybody. <br />The officially sanctioned(sic) version that the Seanchan empire uses is the <i>only</i> version that mentions it. And they say every other version is corrupted. Smells fishy? I think so too. I suspect the Seanchan version is an attempt at self glorification by the Seanchan leaders. Although the time frame at which the change was made is suspect. Seanchan are control freaks and I wouldn't put it past them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 16:06:27
subject: <b>Or maybe Halima is lazy...</b>
body:
I mean, she IS a Forsaken, so she probably doesn't want to all of Egwene's chores. She probably picked off the rest so that she can be closer to Egwene without a maid always around. So Chesa comes and does most of the chores and then takes some time to sleep, then Halima steps in right when Egwene gets her 'headaches.' Just my 2 cents


created: 2002-05-23 16:28:14
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
But then your assuming that sherim(sp) is at least some form of darkfriend which I belive she is not. I don't thnk she even mentions that her beaters are darkfriends, even though it is obvious they are. If she were a darkfriend of some sorts why would she have to be beaten to be made to tell what she know? Surly she would say it anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 17:13:51
subject: <b>I must've missed summat</b>
body:
in what scene is sheriam's work with the shadow revealed?<br />and how did i miss that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font color="silver">Your favourite place is you and me.</font></i><br /><br /><i><font color="white">Eat dirt, fascist herbivores!</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 17:41:36
subject: <b>I likes</b>
body:
This theory is good, even if lacking in any real concrete evidence. I wish we knew who she was burying, that would make life much more easy. Chesa does seem a little too goodie tooshoey doesn't she.....I like on the whole. Maybe she is a darkfriend, or perhaps she's ...*drum roll and dramatic pause* a light friend<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />j/king... i likes<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-23 23:13:25
subject: <b>Hmmm Sheriam</b>
body:
I dont think Sheriam is Black Ajah (nothing in any of her PoVs hints at her being dark).  I was recently re-reading LoC and found an interesting quote of Semirhage not liking being away from her own work when she was examing the Aes Sedai for Shadar Haran.  I think that Semirhages personal &quot;patient&quot; is Sheriam.  Semirhage enjoys causing pain and would love to take on someone like Sheriam (strong willed and full of herself).  Just my personal speculation.  I cant relay back this up but if anyone thinks of anything to disprove it or to help out with it feel free to put it in a theory and post.


created: 2002-05-24 01:29:45
subject: <b>Semirhages</b>
body:
i doubt it's her work..seems to sloppy for her ..i'd think she'd use a better form of toture like on the AS or her warder..but that i bet takes quite a bit of power so maybe it's her and just doesn't want to stand out


created: 2002-05-24 04:41:52
subject: <b>Suspicious.</b>
body:
She does seem a little suspicious.  She could be a darkfriend.  I mean I know if I was a Forsaken I wouldn't want to do chores, but I could find another darkfriend to do them.  Although Chesa speaks too harshly of Halima a few occasion to be a darkfriend.  Of course, she could have been hired by someone from within the Black Ajah, or even a ranking darkfriend soldier.  Think about it, should she really be so trusted as to know that Halima is really one of the Chosen?


created: 2002-05-24 05:01:23
subject: <b>I'll agree with Faythe</b>
body:
I like Chesa so much, and I'd really like to believe there are somebody nice like here in the series without them being evil at the bottom...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 09:14:21
subject: <b>Someone would eventually get suspicious.</b>
body:
If Halima and Chesa kept taking out Eggy's maids one after another someone would eventually notice the ridiculous number of servants Eggy went through.  Even though these AS seem to miss what's right under their noses...I think they would catch that.<br /><br />But anyway....I don't think Chesa's a DF.  I think she's clueless.<br /><br />penny penny<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 09:42:44
subject: <b>My spy's spy is my spy.</b>
body:
Another explanation can be that Chesa is Sheriam spy, and since Sheriam is under Black Ajah / Forsaken hands, then her spy Chesa is too, and therefore there is no reason to kill her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 13:03:43
subject: <b>dreams and seanchan</b>
body:
first we know semi's charge is tuon. the longer she stays away the more tuon will pull away from what anath has to say.(cant remeber who stated the semi thing)  <br /><br />just curious but couldnt egwene just look into chesa's dreams and figure out if she was evil or not. same as everybody else in her camp. if that was my Talent and i was as good as anyone in TAR besides cyndane and moggy or a WO i would wanna know a little bit about everyone around me. especially the ones closest to me. also, if someone whent agaisnt me like the sitters those beaches would be having some serious nightmares. <br />why hasnt egwene read halima's dreams yet.  <br /><br />AS are pretty freaken clueless. atleast elayne,verin, and moraine helped rand in someway or done something worth a sh*t for randland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 16:24:31
subject: <b>T'A'R</b>
body:
Eggy probably can't find Chesa's dreams in T'A'R. If I remember correctly, as your floating around in the space between T'A'R and the waking world, where all the dreams in the universe are arrayed around you like a field of stars, you can only easily find those that you have found before. If it's someone you haven't found before, it is very hard to find an individual person, unless you are very close to them. Not really their relationship - Amyrlin and servant...<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 02:47:17
subject: <b>Chesa and Sheriam</b>
body:
If Chesa *is* a darkfriend, then perhaps she was the one abusing Sheriam.  This might even be how she got the job in the first place, kicking the crap out of Sheriam and either ordering her (if Sherian is Black Ajah) or else blackmailing her into giving her to Egwene as a maid.  It would explain some things.


created: 2002-05-25 03:25:39
subject: <b>AS ward their dreams</b>
body:
Ok how can Eggy get into the AS's dreams around her..i know The forsaken know how to Break the wards but as far as we know eggy can't as she's looked at Rands and i think another AS ward and wonder about it..besides do you think she has the time to waste on finding the dreams of servents and soldiers??we know sleep in T'a'r or the Dreams place( one with the dreams where you have no body) isn't as restoring as normal sleep and i doubt she'd waste a ton of rest finding ppls dreams


created: 2002-05-28 14:02:45
subject: <b>I don't think so.....</b>
body:
I really just think Halima didn't want to do any work for herself. Even Eg says she doesn't need three servents. She had just been provided with them so they could spy on her and report back to the person who arranged for them to be there. So Chesa would report back to Sheriam, and her beater-person would have the information they wanted from her.<br /><br />Also, Chesa is not AS, and as such would not be able to ward her dreams. But then there is the difficulty of finding her particular dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 11:15:08
subject: <b>Sheriam's abuser...</b>
body:
it seems to me, is Halima.  When Sheriam's getting knocked around in her tent, 1) I don't recall anything in the book saying Halima was definitely elsewhere at the time, and 2) it had to take a pretty good bit of the One Power.  Now I realize we're talking about a camp full of Aes Sedai, but I think it would seem suspicious for that MUCH of saidar to be used in the Keeper's tent.  Which begs the question, &quot;Why didn't any of the sister's at least mention it later?&quot;  <br /><br />Maybe it was saidin, which they wouldn't be able to sense.<br /><br />As for Chesa, I agree that she's Sheriam's spy.  As such, whoever is pumping Sheriam for information would want her as close as possible, not to eliminate her.  <br /><br />Oh, and the book talks about Halima carrying off TWO bodies to bury <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />, so she got rid of the other competition in one fell swoop.  If she wanted rid of Chesa, she could easily do it.  Hell, if <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> didn't figure out who benefited from the disappearance of BOTH her maids on the same day and be suspicious, why should she of a third?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Crabuki<br /><br />Father of Emmaline Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Husband to Jennlene the Queenlene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Making pretty babies since August 2001 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 09:03:24
subject: <b>Sheriam's warder</b>
body:
Where Sheriam's warder was when her mistress was abused? After all his job would have been to stop that.


created: 2002-06-08 02:57:54
subject: <b>Why she wasn't killed...</b>
body:
Here's my impression of why Chesa survived and the others didn't: Chesa's running away would not be believable.  Even if the other two didn't seem to hate their jobs, they certainly showed none of the fierce commitment that Chesa has, and which therefore would have made her disappearance much more suspicious.  I had also thought it was more or less established that Chesa is no one's spy now--unless I am simply being gullible, it seemed to be implied many times that her loyalties are completely towards Egwene.  I will concede that she may well be &quot;too good to be true,&quot; but that almost makes my point stronger--who would believe Chesa would run away?<br /><br />--SiWangMu, who has no sig yet but perhaps will soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">SiWangMu<br />Lover of Wotwomen<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Loyal <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Reader</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 16:02:31
subject: <b>Re: Sheriam's Warder</b>
body:
PTH, I was recently pondering WOT.<br /><br />So I decided to check out the extensive FAQ at linuxmafia.com.<br /><br />They speculated on where the hell her warder was and eventually came to the conclusion that it was a little *gasp* mistake made by RJ. After all, he should have come running since it seemed like a prolonged kind of beatin.<br /><br />Don't remember the guy's name but I know he's from Cairhien...not like it matters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-04 11:14:19
subject: <b>Hell no chesas not a dark friend!</b>
body:
first i'd like to say that there really shouldnt be any doubt who halima was burying. it is most certainly the other maids. what no one seems to have picked up is that there is a reference made by someone that the two maids likely took off together for some reason (i know that's vague but it is definitely in there - wish i had the quote handy, might post it later). So clearly their disappearance can be explained and nothing will seem amiss. But if Chesa were to go missing Egwene would certainly realise that something was up.<br /><br />Also, has anyone considered that maybe Halima killed the others because they saw something they shouldnt have? And Halima makes no mention in her thoughts (does that make sense?) about an accomplice or anything.<br /><br />I think the theory that Chesa can spy for a darkfriend without being a darkfriend is a good one. You have to wonder just how much Chesa tells her though. But I do not believe Sheriam is a darkfriend anyway. I think the theory of working for a darkfriend but not being a darkfriend probably applies to her in this case. Likely the person has something on her like a captive family member or a secret from Sheriams past.<br /><br />in conclusion however, how could anyone suggest such a thing? for shame!


created: 2002-10-08 01:23:47
subject: <b>I think Chesa's too good to be true, but...</b>
body:
I am pretty sure that Sheriam isn't a darkfriend. When she goes into her room, she gets a beating so that she tells all she knows. Then, she says she never should have trusted a sitter, and so she most likely didn't even spy for the dark until after Egwene already had Chesa. She would have had nothing to trust a sitter with that she wouldn't have trusted to her little group.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-25 12:24:26
subject: <b>help?</b>
body:
Back to Liam?/b&gt;'s question, above.  Where is this scene that gives people the idea that Sheriam is a DF or some such?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 01:43:17
subject: <b>I say she isn't</b>
body:
All that we actually know is that Sheriam is being tortured for information.  Since Chesa reports to Sheriam, having Chesa around merely provides more eyes and ears for the torturer (I think we can assume that it is BA or Halima), which means that there is no reason to kill Chesa, whether or not she is a darkfriend.  She fulfills her function either way, and in fact would seem more genuine and thus be better at it if she were in fact not a darkfriend.  In other words:<br /><br />A]  There is no conclusive proof that she is in fact a darkfriend.<br /><br />B]  There is, however, evidence indicating (though not proving) that she is not in fact a darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">StanfordMatt0<br /><br />&quot;Don't blame me; I voted for Kodos&quot;<br /><br />We're # 1!  And I was there! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=240380024</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 17:05:55
subject: <b>One thing I noticed</b>
body:
Reading CoT again, the day that Halima was in Egwene's tent early (unlike her usual pattern of showing up late in the day), Siuan gave Egwene some tea that had some herbs from Chesa that was mostly covered up by honey, but still left a very odd taste in her mouth.  She only took a sip of the tea however before the news came about what Rand and Nynaeve did at Shadar Logoth.  It may just be me, but I started thinking that maybe Chesa was trying to give her forkroot - the rebel AS heard about it from Elayne and Nynaeve, but they had no experience with its taste.  Don't have my books handy so I can't give a quote though.  However, if that is the case, then it seems pretty obvious that Chesa is indeed a darkfriend (or at least trying to help kidnap Egwene).


created: 2004-06-30 19:28:36
subject: <b>quote</b>
body:
From page 450 of my hardcover copy of CoT:<br /><br />&quot;Rising, Siuan crossed the carpets to a small table against the tent wall, where several mismatched cups and two pitchers sat on a tray.  The silver pitcher held spiced wine, the blue-glazed pottery tea, both set there at first light against the Amyrlin's arrival and both long since gone cold.  No one had expected Egwene to go riding off to the river...Filling a polished pewter cup with tea, she added generous dollops from the honey jar, stirring it in well, and brought the cup back to Egwene. &quot;This might help your head. It's some sort of herb concoction Chesa found, but honey cuts the taste.&quot;  Egwene took a cautious sip, and set the cup down with a shudder.  If it tasted that sharp with honey, she did not want to imagine it without.  The headache might be better.&quot;<br /><br />So...if this was indeed forkroot, which I think likely, Chesa is almost definitely a darkfriend.  The reasons for this are as follows:<br /><br />1) The new &quot;concoction&quot; was only introduced on the day that Halima showed up in the tent far earlier than usual.<br /><br />2) With the other maids out of the way, and based on the conversation Egwene and Siuan were having earlier in the very same chapter, there was very little checking up on sisters.  While this is probably not so true for the Amyrlin Seat who must be protected, it could still last long enough for Halima and Chesa to make a getaway.<br /><br />3) Halima had to have known what was going on with the use of the CK, and if she even suspected that the rebels would try to ally with the Black Tower, she would would to get away from there ASAP for fear of being recognized by a male who can channel.<br /><br />Kulgan Noblesse


created: 2004-10-17 14:54:24
subject: <b>AAAARRRGHHH!!</b>
body:
People, people, people.  First off, we don't know if Sheriam's a DF.  She's just getting beaten by somebody.  It could be anyone, even one of the Sitters themselves -- remember, if they're really sadistic and think that Sheriam REALLY deserves it, then it's OK.<br /><br />Next, Chesa doesn't report to Sheriam.  In the beginning of ACoS, Chesa is in the tent with Sheriam, Siuan, and Eg while Eg's reading all the camp reports.  Sheriam doesn't like Chesa being in there, but Eg keeps her there because it keeps Sheriam off balance.  If Chesa was reporting to Sheriam, wouldn't she WANT Chesa to stay as close to Eg as possible?  Look at PoD, when Chesa reports that Selame has gone &quot;missing.&quot;  (Dead.)  Romanda is in the tent with Eg, and even she, the oh-so-composed one, can't help but frown that her spy didn't show up for work.  If Chesa is syping on Eg for Sheriam, Sheriam would be pleased at the dancing attendance.<br /><br />Third, in CoT, the drink that Chesa gives Eg is most certainly not forkroot.  Forkroot is described by Nyn as having a minty taste.  This tea is &quot;very sharp.&quot;  Furthermore, the night after Eg drinks this tea is the first night that she has clear dreams since Halima's been messing with her.  And it seems to clear her headache.  Doesn't sound like DF activity to me...


created: 2008-04-03 18:35:00
subject: <b>Sheriam IS a darkfriend</b>
body:
Sheriam is Black .. and willingly I think<br />Submitted by Rand Shadow Killer on 8/12/2002 7:29:27 AM  <br /><br />First off, I caught her lying back in TDR (Ch 22) when she says, &quot;It took 13 Dreadlords - Darkfriends who can channel - weaving the flows through 13 Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today...&quot;<br /><br />Now you think that she believes the BA doesn't exist? not really .. coz a few lines further...<br /><br />&quot;Thirteen,&quot; Egwene said. &quot;The same number who left the Tower. Liandrin, and twelve more.&quot;<br />Sheriam's face hardened. &quot;That is nothing for you to dwell on. You will forget it.&quot;<br /><br />Well, now its pretty obvious she lied (she knew Liandrin is BA), and I doubt the BA managed to take the Mistress of the Novices away from the WT to use 13 Myrddraal (Unless you think they got the Myrddraal to the Tower itself, which ....) so this basically proves that she is Black and of her own free will. Hey I hated it when I figured it out (I mean .. SHERIAM!) but .....  <br />


created: 2002-05-24 12:42:01
subject:
<b>So you&#180;re saying Lan didn&#180;t kill Asmo???<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Well, at least we know now that Moridin is not so bad at all. Giving someone cookies isn&#180;t a thing a bad guy would do!<br />Kudos to Moridin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 20:50:40
subject: <b>Sad, but true</b>
body:
I can sympathize with Asmodean.  I'm addicted to the Peanut Butter sandwich cookies...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-24 22:32:21
subject: <b>Everyone has it wrong!</b>
body:
Moridin does mean Death in the Old Tongue. But in the book it says Asmo was taken by death, not taken by Death. Grrr


created: 2002-05-25 15:27:22
subject: <b>Mmmm..... Tag-alongs..... *drools like Homer Simpson*</b>
body:
The Samoas are good, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 21:19:44
subject: <b>Exactly</b>
body:
Can you blame poor Asmodean? Those cookies truly are addictive, more addictive than any drug. I, personally, am addicted to the mint cookies produced by the evil Girl Scouts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 04:27:31
subject: <b>*looks around, smacking lips*</b>
body:
This tastes... like... *smacks some more*  This tastes like Dragon's Library!  Archival Dragon's Library, at that.  My, my.  I wonder if the knowledge has simply spread, or if it's independent research, or if you're a DL &quot;relic&quot;, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nice theory!  Kudos!  (Yes, the only true cure is to wean off of GSC onto Kudos, I'm sorry to say. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />Chocolate.... yum. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 09:01:07
subject: <b>I am but a messenger....</b>
body:
Its true, those at the Dragon's Library first enlightened me to the fact that the Girl Scout Cookies were evil in their tasty goodness, but I felt that I must pass on what I have learned to others, in an attempt to save them from the doom that is the Girl Scout Cookies, I wish to save them frmo the horrible fate that has befallen so many already. The people must know! Girl Scout Cookies are all just part of the devious plots by &quot;them&quot; to get us addicted to something, so that they can control us and shape our wills!! KEEP WATCHING OVER YOUR SHOULDER!!! THEY'RE OUT THERE!!<br /><br />Sorry bout that, I went kinda insane, disregard the last portion of that, but yes, thanks to the Dragon's Library for the inspiration to enlighten these unknowing people who were unknowingly treading closer and closer to their doom by extensive consumption of Girl Scout Cookies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br />For those who doubt me, what could possibly force someone to consume an entire box in one sitting, with or without milk! It's not natural I tell you! They are addictive!


created: 2002-10-12 14:57:14
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
Finally- the truth about Asmodean! I always knew he wasn't dead. You, sir, are a genius- are you absolutely certain RJ isn't a voice in your head? Or did the Girl Scout Cookies reveal to you the essence of eternal truth?<br /><br />Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... cookies.......<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> I am Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Asylum Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> The Ring of the Malkieri Kings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg lives! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Dammit my eye's on fire! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 04:05:43
subject: <b>Now that answers who Taim really is..</b>
body:
So does this mean that Taimendred is really Chris Cattan in a little girl scout outfit?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">False Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-01 03:19:42
subject: <b>Poor Asmo</b>
body:
Poor Asmo! I pity the poor guy, but Girl Scout Cookies ain't that bad. *MUNCH* *MUNCH*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />TheGnome<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />I see dead people<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I feel the taint<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-23 03:37:02
subject: <b>I perfer the Oreo shaped chocolate and vanilla cookies myself.</b>
body:
I'm not overly fond of the mint ones.<br /><br />But yes, those cookies ARE addictive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-06 21:50:03
subject: <b>Not true</b>
body:
Thats not quite true, you see Asmodean collects Hello Kitty, dolls.<br />That's how Lanfear bribed him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Wills.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />But Screw Robert Jordan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" />! He killed Asmodean!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br />Demandred is cool.. but I'm still...<br /><br />Asmodean's Number 1 Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-14 21:05:16
subject: <b>holy...</b>
body:
it's actually amazing how much non-sence that makes. but seeing as how this is the humour section, WELL DONE! <br />here in Canada, we have Girl GUIDE Cookies, but the effect is the same <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Men fight when they should run,and fools fight when they should run. But I had no need to say it twice.&quot; -Faile ni Bashere t'Aybara<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> NARG SMART!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 14:04:25
subject: <b>What the heck?</b>
body:
I clicked on this theory without checking what catergory it was in, and I thought that I was reading the humurous theories post.<br /><br />Who freaking cares if they switched places?  So far in the books they've been basically acting as one person anyways.  I think RJ just killed the one without a warder because it was simpler that way.<br /><br />And as for her being Mesanna  !!!<br /><br />The lip-tapping thing has been thouroghly (and completely) disqualified as a Mesanna thing - nearly every female in WoT does this at one point or another.<br /><br />Also, in order for her to be Mesanna, Mesanna would have had to excape from the bore almost 300 years before all the other forsaken.<br /><br />Sigh...<br />Sometimes I wonder what the theory post admins are doing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 14:40:10
subject: <b>Not to mention</b>
body:
Mesanna herself has admitted to being in the White Tower.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-24 15:17:20
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
The first bit was a good idea, not sure whether its true but it definatly could be, type of thing RJ would do.<br />Messana part I think was taking it abit far, but the first part is definatly an idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 15:33:17
subject: <b>What in the world is lip-tapping?</b>
body:
Does it even matter?<br /><br />The 2 pieces of evidence you brought into this theory are so minute, that they could be ripped to shreds.<br /><br />The 1st is the lip-tapping.  A gesture?  How does that point to Addy being Mesanna?  It doesn't.<br /><br />Next is Jaem's hard eyes.  While the idea you presented is a decent and creative idea and certainly a possibility (Adeleas switching with Vandene) it doesn't seem likely to me.  Jaem's hard eyes is not valid evidence.  Jaem is old and has seen much of the world.  Lan had hard eyes even before Moiraine died.  Big conclusions cannot be drawn from that piece alone.<br /><br />As for Vandene dying, I just think that it complicates things too much.  If this is true, the bond would have to have been passed before she died (or shortly after), and Jaem would have to be a df.  Also, Jaem hasn't really expressed any of the really desperate behavior of a Warder who just lost his Aes Sedai.  There are so many other questions to be answered.  If you can show me more evidence of Jaem being on edge than his eyes, I will consider this theory more.<br /><br />It is a good concept(discluding the Mesanna bit), but I am just not sure how likely it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 16:45:24
subject: <b>the first bit is interesting</b>
body:
Ignoring the wildly far-fetched part about Mesaana, your theory is pretty good.<br /><br />Explaining the passing of Vandene's bond is easy, though a bit speculative.  When Moiraine died, her bond with Lan passed automatically.  <i>If</i> Adelaes killed Vandene, rather than the other way around, and Jaem is still alive, then the obvious conclusion is that Vandene's bond was already set to pass automatically to Adelaes.  Considering that they are sisters, that would not be improbable.  Furthermore, the passing of the bond would help to explain the sincere grief.  If Adelaes didn't have enough grief herself, she could have allowed herself to feel Jaem's grief at the death of his Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 16:59:34
subject: <b>Willing to admit</b>
body:
I am willing to admit that the Mesaana bit is a stretch and am probably grasping at straws. But I am fairly convinced that Addy is the one still alive.


created: 2002-05-24 17:57:54
subject: <b>No way.</b>
body:
First off Mesaana is in the White Tower.  Her specific role is to mess things up in there.  One little gesture doesn't make Adeleas Mesaana.  Not every little word in RJ's books have some hidden and deeper meaning.  All will be revealed before too long.


created: 2002-05-24 20:33:37
subject: <b>A little toooooo far fetched for me</b>
body:
Why would Addeleane and Vandeane switch places.  That really sounds pointless.  Also we havent seen any suicidal attempts at vengence on the part of Jaim such as was seen when Moraine died and Lan's bond was passed yet he still tried to avenge her until Rand seized him with Saidin.  Jaim just doesnt act like a man who sees himself with no reason to live as Lan seems to.  I guess the sisters could have passed his bond beforehand but once again I must ask WHY????  What would be the point really?  Addy and Vaddy had equal character development and both knew exactly the same things so what would make them switch places.  It just seems pointless.  Well maybe there is something I missed about motivation for it but I dont think so.


created: 2002-05-24 21:17:57
subject: <b>Now I'm confused...</b>
body:
So the theory is that it was Vandene who was murdered, by Adeleas, and now the original Adeleas is going around saying she's Vandene, and that it was Adeleas that was murdered (not Vandene)?<br /><br />Okay.  I don't really see what point there would be for doing that though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-24 22:38:13
subject: <b>Uhh.....</b>
body:
Why would Messy automatically choose Addy and Vendy's place. She would have just gotten out of the prison.


created: 2002-05-25 03:00:01
subject: <b>ARGGGGGH</b>
body:
how many times must I post this: Suian Sanche too taps her lips... she is NOT mesaana.  This can not be attributed JUST to Mesaana.<br /><br />other than that, it is possible that the twins switched.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 03:45:11
subject: <b>First bit was interesting...</b>
body:
But Mat has not had hundreds of years with them. Other sisters can tell them apart. I like this as a wacky theory, but I don't think it's true. <br />As for the Mesaana thing...<br />A)The Guide states &quot;Upon being released from the Bore, Mesaana placed herself in the White Tower, where she remains.&quot; Sorry, people, she is in the Tower. End of story. <br />B)The lip-tapping thing is useless. Alviarin taps her lips, and she TALKED to Mesaana!<br />C)Mesaana is Danelle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 04:14:40
subject: <b>Now hang on!</b>
body:
I DO agree that Messanna is in the White Tower, but it seems to me that the lip tapping thing got blown WAY out of proportion by the above posters.<br /><br />Three years ago EVERYBODY was convinced that Taim was Demandred because of his half smile, and now everyone is just ready to throw the gestures out?<br /><br />Anyway, I will have to agree that I don't see the point of the sisters switching. There just doesnt seem to be a point to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 05:21:10
subject: <b>The half-smile bit was easier</b>
body:
Taim was the only other character who consistently almost smiled. Therefore it was possible. However, Moiraine, Siuan, Alviarin, Vandene, Sheriam...there are at least seven or eight characters, Aes Sedai, whom we have seen tap their lips. Of course, I suppose we could look for characters currently in the Tower who have tapped their lips, but the only one i can remember is Alviarin and we know it's not her. Lip-tapping is just a common gesture. It's more like sniffing, not braid-tugging. If we ever see Mesaana tug her braid, we'll know she's really hiding as Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Whereas so many women characters sniff it's no damn use. Same diff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 14:38:21
subject: <b>Taimandred was based on more than just a half-smile</b>
body:
Let's do a Taim-andred theory recap:<br /><br />1.  Bashere did not recognize Taim because Taim said he had shaved.<br /><br />2.  Taim suspiciously gave Rand one of the seven seals<br />3.  Taim has mysteriously held off the madness for a long time, and has expressed an unusual knowledge of saidin.  For example Taim asked Rand about angreals and he also taught Rand how to learn if a man could channel.<br /><br />4.  Taim's half-smiles and severely cold reactions towards Rand.  For example when Rand pinned Taim.<br />5.  Taim's quotes about 'so-called Aiel' and 'renegade Aiel'.<br />6.  Taim's uncanny ability to track Rand-e.g. with the grey man, Dumai's Wells, and with the Ashaman attack in Cairhienen.<br />7.   Taim's physical resemblance to Demandred- as in being almost as tall as Rand, having a hooked nose, brown hair, and a warder's deadly grace.<br />8.  Taim's reluctance to use the swords. 9.  Taim's natural ability to lead men, put together an army so quickly.<br /><br />So there are LOTS of points hinting at Taim being Demandred.  None are conclusive, but RJ purposely wrote it this way to make us think Taim was Demandred. <br /><br />With this Vandene=Mesaana theory.  There are really only 2 points, and they aren't really even as strong as the ones in the Taim-mandred theory:<br /><br />1.  The lip-tapping- as shown this gesture has been used by multiple Aes Sedai, and and it is not a trademark feature of Mesaana.<br /><br />2.  Jaem's hard eyes- but what is to say that Jaem didn't have hard eyes in the 1st place?  Maybe he was just holding back sadness at losing Adeleas whom he lived with for so long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 07:53:09
subject: <b>The heck? O.O;;</b>
body:
Everyone else got to tear a piece outta you before I got my chance. <br /><br />Now I don't want to be rude, but this theory truly is a pile of steaming stinky horse crud. You completely lost me when you said &quot;If Mat couldn't recognize them... etc&quot; That is such a useless point! Identifying people isn't ta'veren luck - he just didn't know the two Aes Sedai well enough!<br /><br />I don't think I need to mention the Mesaana thing- I think you got the point from other people. But to everyone else, stop having an orgasm about the two switching places, cuz they did not! After the death (notice it is death, not &quot;death&quot;, because Ads DID die!) of Ads, we have a POV from Vandene. And she prays to the Light, and spills her inner most thoughts and everything. No matter what secrets a character has, when you get a POV from them, they are always mentioned somehow. If Vandene was Ads, then it would have been said during her own POV.<br /><br />Phew! *adjusts his tie* Sorry to get so aggressive, but I was really REALLY disappointed in this theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 11:51:33
subject: <b>err...</b>
body:
The lip-tapping is SOOOOO way out there....and is also SOOOOO wrong...and also, Mesaana is Danelle, the dreamy brown, it's &quot;intuively obvious&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  And Adeleas and Vandene might be the same person, but I don't see the reason why they should be....but perhaps...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 21:11:39
subject: <b>My oh my.</b>
body:
I know why people thought Taim was Demandred, but the point of my saying he used the half smile (Who others HAVE used, might I add.) is just to show that one can't just throw things out just because they're too obvious. Really, if Jordan wanted to get us going, he'd throw something in that was too obvious and we would just discount it because everyone henpecks everything he does to death.<br /><br />The whole reason that I tried to defend the author of this theory is because it kind of gets irritating when peole jump on the bandwagon and just slam down the same point over and over. YES, she tapped her lips. YES other women tap their lips, but just because they all do doesnt make it any less of a valid point. BTW, I never remember Moiraine tapping her lips. EVER. That's something that someone here put up and everyone else just automatically agrees with. For example, I've hears it said that Thom will 'save' Moiraine because he is seen pulling her jewel from a fire. One person says it and everyone automatically agrees because it seems like a good idea. Guess what? That seems a little implausible to me. That could just as easily be him saving her from something else, not the Tower. People dont want to look at the facts (ie: Mat and Lanfear BOTH were thrown out of the Tower once their wishes were granted. WHY WHY WHY do we assume that Moiraine is still in there? You know what they say happens when you assume <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />That example was just to prove a point. I'm not saying that EITHER of the sisters, or whoever it is, IS Messanna, I'm just trying to say look at the facts before you post. Stay off the bandwagon because it really gets annoying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 10:56:50
subject: <b>Err...</b>
body:
First, the half smile was used to our knowledge only by Taim and Demandred(later we know others with the same attribute, and we know Taim aint Demandred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> ), and this lip-tapping is used by several people, for example Siuan and Alviarin, which leads me(and most others) to believe it is a common attribute, and one not to focus on when trying to identidy who the forsaken disguises as.<br /><br />Second, just because you don't remember a passage saying Moiraine tapped her lips, doesn't mean there isn't any, it's hard to memorize all those books, right? Oh, I don't remember it either, but I do remember Siuan and Alviarin, and that makes the point about the lip-tapping invalid(at least from my point of view...)<br /><br />Third, not everyone believes Moiraine will be rescued by Thom, but the majority do. It's a good theory with good arguments, which this theory about addy-vaddy-messy is not. And what are the chances Thom will save Moiraine from something else than the tower....pretty slim I'd say...<br /><br />Fourth, we do NOT know what happened to Lanfear in Finnland, and we surely do NOT know whether she was thrown out or killed on sight by the Finns. And we know for a fact that Rand was not thrown out, he walked out after having blinded them with the sword of fire.<br /><br />And fifth, and last, Mesaana is Danelle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 12:15:45
subject: <b>Taim v A/V</b>
body:
Firstly, I disagree absolutely with this. Why swap the twins when it is unclear which, if any at all, is black. Doesn't make sense.<br /><br />Also, passing a bond is difficult and not done normally. And even if it was done, how would Adeleas justify it to Vandene. And if it was a pass-at-death thing like Lan's, buddy would become suicidal like Lan did.<br /><br />End of rant - Part 1<br /><br />Just a quick point on Taim. Everyone thinks he can track Rand over distances and cites Dumai's Wells and the Grey Man episodes. WRT the Grey Man one, he expected Rand to be in the Palace.<br /><br />In Dumai's Well, he followed either the Aes Sedai or Perrin's group, which would have left a massive trail behind them. Easy to do, as shown in PoD, short jumps can be done with gateways without knowing the departure area. Rand was doing that when he took Caemlyn already. So it's something he would have mentioned.<br /><br />Taimandred is dead, long live Taim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-12 12:34:53
subject: <b>Laras = Mesaana</b>
body:
Mesaana <br />Born Saine Tarasind, she is a female Forsaken who hides in the White Tower. She is described as a tall woman of dark shadow and silver light, who has a habit of tapping her steepled forefingers against her lips. She was once denied a place in the Collam Daan, and thus relegated to teaching. <br />Alviarin cannot sense the ability to channel in her - possibly a side effect of her disguise, which is woven of the Power. She now has the Black Ajah under her, ordering Alviarin directly. She helped Be'lal set up the trap to capture Rand in Tear, but has otherwise kept a low profile.<br /><br />Laras - Introduced in The Dragon Reborn...<br />Fat Mistress of the Kitchens at Tar Valon.<br />She carries a long-handled wooden spoon like a scepter, using it to direct and order people about, even smacking someone who is not working hard enough (she believes work builds character), but never to stir anything with.<br />She is completely loyal to the Tower. When she was young she was willowy, beautiful and flirtatious. She had many adventures, almost getting herself hanged.<br /><br />1 + 1 = 2.5<br />I think thats how theories work<br />Need I say more...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />shadow killer, shaido killer I guess one and the same<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 20:59:42
subject: <b>Responce to Vanden-Adeleas</b>
body:
Well, now that I've sorted through the bad critisizms, I would like to post my thoughts.<br /><br />I have not considered that point before, but the switcharoow is possible, and although it's not very likely, I have not ruled it out as possible.  I don't think Messanna is Danelle either, Messanna is just there, never has to be anyone...<br /><br />I've also heard that Demandred is the guy that Rand has as the steward of Cairhein (spelling).  Can't remember his name right now... But I like him so it can't be true... heh.<br /><br />Well... the Moriane Thomdrill thingy is possible... NAH!  IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY!  Moriane is too cool for school... and DEATH!<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Fear not my friends!  This will be my greatest performance!&quot;


created: 2002-05-25 14:10:42
subject: <b>okay.</b>
body:
I don't think Rand would just take Callandor away from Narishma and give it to Logain - that wouldn't make sense.  If something were to happen to Narishma, however...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 15:04:31
subject: <b>The Logain Part I have problems with....</b>
body:
I don't really remember too well how much Rand knew of Narishma. Obviously he trusted him enough to get and use Callandor, but I don't think that neccessarily means that he will not let Logain wield Callandor. It would make sense that Logain would use it. The reason I think of that is because we have never really seen any odd behavior out of Logain, and he declared himself a False Dragon by urging of the Red Ajah. I don't remember where he said that, but I think it might have been in Book 5, don't hold me to it though. Really it doesn't matter, whoever uses callandor will be emensly strong and extrememly hard to kill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 16:27:20
subject: <b>Agreement</b>
body:
I would tend to agree that Narimsha will continue to wield Callandor but the prophecy could just mean that the person who draws Callandor would be one of Rand's followers and not himself.<br /><br />And deathbone, the thing about the Red Ajah setting Logain up was a lie Siuan made up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-25 16:28:35
subject: <b>Me likes</b>
body:
It makes sense that Narishma would weild Callandor. After all, Rand doesn't even know Logain, beyond hearing about the man as a False Dragon. Would he really give such a powerful sa'angreal to a man he doesn't know? And there's no one else I can think of who would be given Callandor to use, with the exception of Rand himself, who likely will use something more powerful. Hmmm...so yes, I gave it a thumbs up.<br /><br />There've been more well-written, original theories lately! Such a relief after a few I've read in the past <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 08:55:55
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
Personally I thought this was obvious. It states it clearly in the prophacies, but then it is good that someone has actually put pen to paper as it were. One thing people should remember when they say that the prophacy relates to the black tower is that Rand was never really the leader of the tower, more of a patron, or the creator of it but he never really lead it, Taim did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 23:49:26
subject: <b>I don't know?</b>
body:
I think that it is set up for Callandor to go to Logain.<br />Narishma has been bonded by one Aes Sedai,but where's the second one to link with to make it safe to use Callandor.<br />It was made pretty obvious that Logain has two Aes Sedai bonded to him and who are completely in his control.How easy is it for him to link with these two and use Callandor safely.The fact that one of the women has to lead the circle doesn't even matter because he's the boss and she'll do what he say's.<br />Narishma will follow Rand but it will be Logain who wields Callandor<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 04:01:55
subject: <b>Makes Sense on Several Levels.</b>
body:
I essentially agree with your point, but I'll just add a few more:<br /><br />-- Tactical consideration: Why give a powerful tool to an already-powerful ally? (Logain)  Giving it to Narishman gives another more-or-less trusted top-drawer allied channeler, as strong or stronger than any other male Forsaken, save maybe Moridin (currently as Naeblis)<br /><br />-- I doubt there will be any doubt as to Rand's trust of Logain.  First of all, our indications from Min will also be given to Rand, and he does trust her.  Plus, Logain is in opposition to Taim.  Then there's the 'testimony' from Egwene and Nynaeve.  Logain acted honorably with Suian and Min and Leanne. That'll matter.<br /><br />-- The one who wields Callandor will follow after...but we have indications that Logain has other fates in store (the crown).<br /><br />-- We can't completely settle on Narishma to follow after Rand (whatever that precisely means).  Don't forget the reasoning behind the Horn of Valere, just because Mat has blown it, doesn't mean it can't be blown by someone else. The same circumstances could, perhaps, apply here. At least there's precedent. <br /><br />Rand, Logain and Narishma w/Callandor is a heavy-duty trio for the DO to try to counter (not even counting allied women).  Moridin, Demandred and Shadar Haren seem naturally set up as opposition.  This could get interesting.


created: 2002-05-28 06:24:31
subject: <b>Prophecy is already fulfilled!</b>
body:
Well follow after means N. will follow Rand. So he followed him with Callandor so that is that!<br /><br />Nah, just kidding <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 06:53:54
subject: <b>Trust</b>
body:
When you think about it, I am suprised Rand trusted anyone with Callandor.  He did not even trust himeslf with it.  The one thing that makes Narishma different from the others at the Black Tower (except perhaps Taim and Logain) is that he was born with the spark.  The others chose to learn to Channel but Narishma really had no choice.  Maybe that is the reason Rand trusted him.<br /><br />Of course he put Callandor back in the Stone after he had been through the doorway.  He may have been acting on information received.


created: 2002-05-28 21:01:25
subject: <b>Vashti Vashti Vashti.</b>
body:
1: Narishma IS He who Follows After. He took the sword from the stone after the Dragon. End of Story.<br /><br />2: MAt is the only one who can blow the horn until he dies. It says expressley in the books that until Mat's Death, it is just another horn to anyone who uses it.<br /><br />Jeez <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 21:39:50
subject: <b>Once Again...</b>
body:
A major point in this theory was that Logain is a FALSE DRAGON. Why the heck would Rand, the real Dragon Reborn, lend Callandor to a FALSE DRAGON? Callandor in the hands of a FALSE DRAGON would be an oxymoron if ever there was one. Narishma will follow after Rand, he's got the spark born in him, and he's pretty strong in the power. I don't think a FALSE DRAGON will hold Callandor, but Narishma is the best choice in my opinion.<br /><br />FYI: My opinion is better than your opinions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 23:13:34
subject: <b>Follows after what?</b>
body:
That's the part that is unexplained.  This is the mistake Elaida keeps making -- assuming she's interpreting things correctly. :-)<br /><br />I don't recall it was definitely stated precisely what is meant by what Narishma follows.  And what it actually means.<br /><br />I only stated it as a point, while agreeing with the overall theory. The balance of my point (including Mat), was that other things can happen to change the circumstances.  Narishma could get cacked by Taim when he doesn't have Callandor.  Essentially, has he fulfilled the &quot;He who follows&quot; bit yet or what? (and please...any answer at this point is just a guess)<br />


created: 2002-05-29 11:37:01
subject:
<b>Prophecies can do that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I'm not so sure what is meant be 'He who follows after' either, but it says that whoever takes Callandor into their hands after Rand (Who can grasp that fearful blade?) is HWFA. Don't ask me what it means though. I can only assume that Narishma will lead the Ashaman after the Last Battle (I am a believer that Logain's Glory will come from dying in a supremley heroic way in TG. After all, since normal people dont really know what's going on, Logain may be remembered as saving the world, hence the glory. Jez, I dont know.)Then again, you know what they say happens when we assume <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 14:03:59
subject: <b>My Thoughts</b>
body:
Why should Rand hold a grudge against somebody who was a false dragon? Did Logain know he wasn't the DR? All he knew was that he could channel, which made him a candidate. Rand only knew he was the DR because Moriane told him, and then he set off to fulfill the prophecies.<br /><br />And lets not forget, Rand was the one who recruited Taim in the first place. I think Logain and Rand will get along by the end of the series, especially after Logain saves Rand's hide by ousting Taim from the BT.<br /><br />In spite of this, I still think Narishma will be the one to weld Callandor. No specific reason for this, just my opinion. Narishma has already proven his loyalty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 22:22:26
subject: <b>Small Point, Randwashere</b>
body:
Rand questioned Taim's decision to respond to Rand's amnesty in Lord of Chaos. Taim said something along the lines that you just said, Randwashere. Taim told Rand that because he could channel, he had to consider the possibility of him being the Dragon Reborn. Rand then told Taim that he, Rand, had already fulfilled a prophecy by being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. Taim is a Darkfriend, a new Dreadlord, so his excuse is just that; an excuse. A bad excuse, at that. What's Logain's excuse? Wouldn't he have read the prophecies if he thought he was the Dragon Reborn? No matter what Logain does, Rand will never really trust him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 13:17:45
subject: <b>BUT, The Dragon Lews TheRIN</b>
body:
Logain was set up but by the reds, and Rand knows it. Just a quick note.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 18:44:02
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
Vasthi is Robert Jordan<br /><br />I've always wondered how Vashti should be so consistently wrong and yet still come here...<br /><br />Therefore, Vashti is RJ trying to throw us off<br /><br />=]


created: 2002-06-01 19:44:02
subject: <b>Simple</b>
body:
I always thought it was pretty straight forward.<br /><br />He who follows after is Narishma, because he was the next male channeler born with the spark (apparently a pretty rare occurance).  This was why Rand trusted him, because prophesy was his guide.  Not much to say.<br /><br />Read my Theory: <i>Callandor</i> under &quot;The Winning Stroke&quot; category. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-02 16:00:22
subject: <b>but, nickiq...</b>
body:
Siuan Sanche TOLD Logain to say that the Reds set him up as a False Dragon, you moron!!! Don't worry, though, you're not the only idiot that's said that. Siaun used Logain's fake story to put the Salidar Aes Sedai against the former Red Sister, Elaida. Read the series over, you ding-a-ling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 12:47:40
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
My favourite part was when you called him a ding-a-ling....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.ffac.org</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 17:43:33
subject: <b>Just pointing out</b>
body:
Rand CAN'T give the fat man angreal to Logain because he didn't have it after the whole Dumai's Wells fiasco.<br /><br />Except for that part, I agree. Well done.


created: 2002-08-23 05:06:51
subject: <b>Logain Will Wield Callandor</b>
body:
Logain has bonded and compulsed two aes'sedai who could link with him in wielding the sword that ain't.  It seems to me that Jordan put that plot element in there to allow Logain to use Callandor.  As much as I like Narishma, I don't think he'll be around for long.  Just look at what happened to Nalasean, the moment you start to like the guy he gets his throat ripped out by the Gholam.<br /><br />just my two cents


created: 2002-10-06 18:12:12
subject: <b>fat little man</b>
body:
i'm pretty sure that rand lost the fat-liitle-man agreal at Dumai Wells (thats why he had the wagons searched).  since i don't remember him using that angreal after dumai, i'm pretty use he lost it (especially considering the number of times he used it before).  logain won't be able to use that one in a black tower power struggle.  he'll have to get something else or narishma will come with callandor


created: 2002-12-09 13:04:43
subject: <b>The spark in men?</b>
body:
Who says Narishma is the only Asha'man born with the spark,eh? What about Taim and Logain, not to mention Rand, where did they learn to channel if they weren't born with the spark ?(well it's obvious that Rand has the spark) and Narishma can't be the head of the BT, he's too young(but he's older than Rand. why do they always talk about him like he's the same age as Hopwil or Fedwin)<br />


created: 2003-08-01 10:48:48
subject: <b>About Rand and the Choedan Kal...</b>
body:
Very good theory, but i have one problem with it. Rand won't use the Choedan Kal in the last battle, because he can't. I read CoT back in May (you can find anything on the internet), and both the Choedan Kal melt when Rand tries to cleanse the male half of the one power, which he does by the way. He does it near Shadar Logoth, and destroys the whole city in the process (leaving a HUGE crater) hoping that with the city gone, his wound left by Fain will heal.<br />                                    -Hail to the king baby<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-05-28 08:24:40
subject: <b>Isn't this a repost?</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure we've seen this before and <i>someone</i> is just posting this for the 50 points.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 19:42:01
subject: <b>I'm Laughing Hysterically</b>
body:
Finally we discover what truly happens to the pending theories. Pure brilliance, Mr. Al'Thor. I must applaud your powers of observation. But couldn't you tell simply by looking at Mike that he's been eating too much of SOMETHING? Pretty obvious, but I'm glad you've announced the truth to the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 23:24:27
subject: <b>I'm sure he ate my theory</b>
body:
I am positive that he ate my theory.  As I was finishing up my seven page treatise on how Murundian Surnames are the true vessels by which modern (modern in the sense of the WoT continuum) scholars could derive nearly all the relevant data about the AoL they could ever want, I sighed and said to myself, &quot;Self, that looks good enough to eat.&quot;<br /><br />Little did I realize how right I was.<br /><br />Oh well<br /><br /><br />Just a peasant<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Nothing is preordained&quot;<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-01 19:43:42
subject: <b>Aarghh</b>
body:
I knew that there was something wrong with the Pending Theories! I'm surprised at Mike's enormous appetite though<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 01:08:17
subject: <b>A way to save the theories?</b>
body:
Perhaps there is a way around Mikes obsessive over-indulgence of our favorite electronic medium.  If we work together and post theories specifically for Mike to eat each week, we may fill him up before he has a chance to eat the ones we post with pride.  <br /><br />Who's with me?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/14389.gif" /> nine<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Deborah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am always reading over your shoulder...<br />Member of the English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-04 16:34:57
subject: <b>Heeeeyyyyyyy!!!!!!!</b>
body:
(before speaking strikes an painfully handsome, yet incredibly wise pose for the ladies)... So that's what happened to my incredibly ingenious theory... (shakes a finger) Naughty, Mike, tres naughty.  Hey, bookman 186, I WANT THE ROBOCOP SMILEY FACE, E-MAIL ME OR SOMETHING, ARRRRRRRRGGGGG, THE LEADER OF THE DESTROYERS OF SHADOW COMMANDS IT!!!!!!!<br /><br />Samshaidar Mhael <br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br />(by the way, how do you do the vertical slash in the green lightsaber smiley face, I have to use copy and paste, and its driving me crazy, someone e-mail me or something!!!)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 14:02:46
subject: <b>Does he need variation?</b>
body:
Or could we just repost all the old theories and maybe he'll leave the new ones uneaten?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 23:31:58
subject: <b>You Are The Weakest Link... Goodbye</b>
body:
Sorry, but I am a proud member of the Moiraine-getting-together-with-Thom camp. Your sheer brilliance in the mystery of the Missing Pending Theories case had be thinking you actually had any IQ that broke into the double-digits, but I can be wrong sometimes.<br /><br />If Moiraine chooses anyone for her new Warder, it will be her future husband, (one of Min's visions, though not officially announced in the books) Thom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 23:45:37
subject: <b>Well now...</b>
body:
If it's not in the books, how can I theorize on it?  Also - Moiraine is known to to what is best, not necessarily what she wants most.  Aes Sedai don't have to be married to their Warders, and they don't have to bond their husbands.  I think if Moiraine bonds Thom, he will be a second Warder, not a first - or if he is bonded first, he won't be her only Warder for long.<br /><br />As for my IQ...  Double digits?  Hmm...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Rand al`Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></b><br /><br /><font color="Blue"><b>Elayne Trakand</b></font>'s Warder and <font color="Purple"><b>Alexia</b></font>'s Guardian!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-26 23:46:51
subject: <b>To dispute The Dragon Lews TheRIN 's assertion....</b>
body:
Moiraine could have Rand as a warder and still be with Thom. I mean, heck, Rand's bonded to 4 women already, so conventions on what's proper with bonding have to go out the door. Rand IS the DR, after all. I'm not sure if I think it'll be that way, but it's a neat li'l package you wrapped there Rand al`Thor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><b><font color="blue">If It Makes You Happy</font></b><br /><br /><b><font color="820BBB">Frankly, I don't know why anybody listens to actors about anything other than acting. Since when does the ability to fake emotions on cue like a sociopath make one an expert on anything?</font></b><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 02:49:34
subject: <b>A New Moirain?</b>
body:
What happens if Moirain gets a new body? Would she also get the chance to change ajhas? (sp?) If so what stops her from bonding both Rand and Thom? I think you brought up some interesting points, and who knows. I would also like to quote Thom here &quot;sometimes you don't know if a woman is a freind, a lover, or an enemy untill it is to late. Sometimes she is all three.&quot; I think that they will hook up mostly because of that. In general a good job.<br /><br />The Skald<br />&quot;The legend never ends&quot;


created: 2002-05-28 04:18:28
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Moiraine earned Rand's trust when she stopped trying to manipulate him. I think they both valued that (as indicated by her parting letter). A warder bond would be a regression of that. <br /><br />I, too, am firmly in the Thom camp.  I actually think Thom trusts her -- warily. And Thom is a sucker for women in distress.   He's also a sucker for women tied to the House of Lamen (snide remark).<br /><br />And they are both master Great Game players. <br /><br />One of the more curious things in the books is Jordan allowing the bond with Alanna, and allowing it to continue.  She was a pretty major player early in the series, but since she bonded him, she's been a complete zilch.  And is it just me, or is she ravaged by the loss of her first warder(s -- can't forget if there were more than 1) far more than any other Aes Sedai? Sheeeeeeeesh.<br /><br />I'm disappointed. I expected more about her.


created: 2002-05-28 07:34:20
subject: <b>Ugh! Thom?!</b>
body:
What the heck's wrong with you people?! Thom's like a million years old now! He can't truly be leaping around, romping about the planet, taking arrows through the chest for Moiraine. He's rotting and gnarled and Moiraine can do MUCH better! Besides, what about Thom and Morgase? I know Morgase has Tallanvor now, but still, a cat fight between the two men could be fun.<br /><br />Anyway, I have a point! Yes, yes I know it's weird, but there it is. I think this theory has merit. Alanna's bond needs to be resolved somehow - and anything short of dying isn't gonna fix it. Except passing it on, on to Moiraine. The only thing is, I have an issue with both Moiraine and Cadsuane being in the same room together. Can anyone say sparks? Chuck Verin into the mix, and Rand has a three way tug between three different Aes Sedai with three different agendas. It's gonna be fun. =D<br /><br />You know what? Turns out I really didn't have a point, huh? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> (Conclusion: I like this theory)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 07:58:21
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
This is all very good but whats more interesting and potentialy important than the whole Moirane-Thom thing (which I agree is entirely possible, cmon she is aes-sedai who knows how old she is, besides the viewing is pretty strong evidence, besides all the little coincidences that with Jordan spell certainty )is Moirane's return and her effect on Rand whether or not he is her warder. Think about it Rand has been kicking himself, and I mean really KICKING himself since she died, what effect would her life have on his guilt complex thing he's got going about dead women.<br /><br />When she does return isn't it entirely likely he would have Alanna transfer the bond to Moirane so he could protect her (this could be central to him learning to cry and laugh again, because he could stop blaming himself and as we all know he uses the names of dead women to harden himself for what he has to do, as in far madding).<br /><br />Essentially I think that Moirane, Thom is gonna happen but only after Thom has a hand in rescuing her. They might have to work together or trust each other. than again if Rand &quot;I can cleanse Saidin in one afternoon, how about you ?&quot; Al'thor is there to solve all there problems they might have a slower relationship forming.<br /><br />Either way Moirane's influence on rand will be a far greater turning point than Moirane's new boyfriend.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;you say we should turn our swords into plowshares, well I say to you what good are plowshares when Trollocs roam the fields&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Caraman Gaiden<br /><br />The journeyman battle brother


created: 2002-05-28 08:34:35
subject: <b>What about the broads?</b>
body:
I think that the three women that Rand is in love with might perhaps have a problem with Moiraine bonding Rand. Does he himself want to balefire his own foot by allowing this? Imagine the scene when Moiraine is in the room with Elayne, Aviendha and Min, as well as Alanna. Throw in Nynaeve with her opinion on the whole foursome thingie, and Tarmon Gaidon would be an anticlimax. In the interests of having important characters survive, particularly to prevent Moiraine from dying again - more painfully this time - perhaps old RJ would not let this happen? Just a thought.<br />(Sorry, I don't have a snappy quote to go with my name)


created: 2002-05-28 10:35:31
subject: <b>See FAQ on Moraine</b>
body:
The FAQ (under the Was Moraine Stilled? section) mentions that Jordan has said he will not re-instate Moiraine in the guide position she had before, so I have an easy time disagreeing with this one.<br /><br />Unless we are going to start doubting our beloved FAQ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 13:10:54
subject: <b>Thom's age means nothing</b>
body:
C'mon...please tell me you haven't noticed Jordan's affinity for hooking up older men with younger (or younger-looking) women!! It's one of the more embarrassing elements of the series!<br /><br />Lan-Nynaeve<br />Gareth Byrne-Suian<br />Thom (before)-whomever that apprentice of his was<br />Bael-the fiery Aiel Wise Woman with twins (I -always- forget her name)<br /><br />crud...I had several other good examples even as I wrote the title, and am drawing a blank now.<br /><br />Moiraine is approx. 40, give or take a few years.  We know she was an Accepted when Rand was born (bit more than 20 years ago), we know she moved pretty quickly through the Novice/Accepted Ranks, and we can guess that she came to the tower somewhere in her mid-teens (give or take, again).<br /><br />Hence, about 40.<br /><br />I'm wondering if Alanna's bond with Rand is what causes him to weep again -- when she dies.  I mean, is she good for anything else whatsoever now?  Jordan's been carefully keeping her away from Min, if I recall right, some I expect soon they'll bump into each other and Min will get a shocking viewing.  The laughter....who knows. Maybe his other women comforting him (no joke).  <br /><br />The unique thing about Alanna is Rand having nothing to do with the bonding, so he doesn't feel any particular responsibility for her.  When she dies anyway, or whatever leads up to it, he's going to learn an appreciation of her efforts.  Don't forget, she IS a Battle Ajah, and proud of it -- and she was before he ever knew her.  (minor theory)


created: 2002-05-28 14:50:10
subject: <b>Ew</b>
body:
What is wrong with you people??!! Thom and Moiraine? Yuck!!! Where do you morons get the idea that Moiraine will end up with Thom? Just because he pulled a stone from a freakin' fire?! Puleese! Get a brain already! If Moiraine does end up with Thom I will send RJ some extremely nasty letters and burn all my WOT books. <br /><br />On a note of Moiraine coming back and resuming her place with Rand as before... RJ has said she will not. Check the chats, yo!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 15:11:27
subject: <b>HMMMMMM</b>
body:
I very well thought-out theory, and you seem to have done some serious thinking on it as well.  Very good.<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-28 16:03:19
subject: <b>Guide not necessarily an advisor.</b>
body:
1.The guide position- guide is not an advisor.  An advisor gives advice when Rand wants it.  A guide would lead Rand.  <br /><br />So Moiraine could be an advisor without assuming the role of a guide.  <br /><br />2.Moiraine, though a Blue, might not come back as an Aes Sedai.  She has spent very little time in the tower since being raised a Sister, and I don't think she will be any more fond of the Tower after all the stuff Aes Sedai have done to Rand.  <br /><br />She could probably bond both Rand and Thom, since she would not care for Aes Sedai customs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 18:16:40
subject: <b>why not Thom, whatabout Green</b>
body:
who says thom cant be warder. dude's got skills. fought a myrdraal lived, took out a king no one knows who did it. hes been around and not just with some important ladies either. thom knows things ya know. <br /><br />why cant moraine come back green. i think she is done with blue( always involved in messing with peoples lives and not having one of my own) ajah. leane switched ajahs why cant moraine. advisor to rand yes, she will not guide rand anymore. she will just want to be there at his side to protect him and take out any stupid AS who interferes with rand again. i hope she teaches cadsuane a lesson and fast. that old bi**h hits my last nerve. verin and moraine are the two most important AS in helping rand in this story. they will play a BIG part in keeping rand alive. <br /><br />alanna will kill a few BA before she goes count on it. she has been deeling with a warders death and a f'd up bond situation with rand. her and rands interaction in WH was a sign of things to come. she will handle AS who are against rand any a most serious way(not good). <br /><br />that will make seven women who's best interests for rand are in fact good for rand. Rand Is The Coach Of The Randland Women's all-star team. he can sleep with four of them and three others act like a mom and sisters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 18:49:45
subject: <b>Here's why Thom and Moiraine</b>
body:
First of all, it's based on the premise that Jordan is gonna marry EVERYONE off.  If Moridin survives, don't be surprised if he ends up hitched (tongue in cheek on that part).  RJ's hooking everyone up.<br /><br />Moiraine has stated she knows the face of her husband (or something like that).  I don't remember the precise words, but it was pretty tough to twist it around the Oath Rod to be 'I won't hook up with anybody'.  <br /><br />Her and Thom have an awful lot in common.  They both are incredibly well versed in the Great Game and the way around court.  They both are doers, despite being keenly intelligent, and would find good company with each other roaming around.  <br /><br />They both know the worst about each other, so to speak (or at least each others secrets)...and still respect one another.<br /><br />Thom treated Moiraine more like a woman than an Aes Sedai, while he is now always veeeerrrry careful around AS.  <br /><br />Moiraine was probably the first AS to ever deal with him honestly, even if it was part of a manipulation, it was a manipulation they both knew that they were both aware of. i.e., when she used him (as Moiraine of course uses everyone), she did it up front, and gave something in return (the names of the Red Ajah re: Owen). <br /><br />And then, of course, there is the fact that Thom will likely be instrumental in her recovery/rescue...and I ain't talkin' sneaking into a Trolloc camp.  All indications are that she's still 'beyond the pale', in Finnland, and for him to take the unbelievable risks for a non-channeler to go in....well, that's likely to melt the knees of even the frostiest princess/sorceress.  <br /><br />Plus, it's not something anyone does for a lark.  If Thom does it, it's an indication of his regard for her. <br /><br />And THAT is why people think they'll end up together (plus a few other reasons, I'm sure).


created: 2002-05-28 19:14:05
subject: <b>tag zero and ....</b>
body:
tag zero?  Where did you come from?  ZEROLAND?  I think that before you start MOUTHING off again about morons, you should have a look in the mirror.  I imagine that you are one that has read the series five times already and taken your time,  am I right?  If you haven't picked up on the Moraine and Thom connection after reading the series FIVE TIMES!, then you don't want to hear what I have to say.<br /><br />Ashaman al Cor?????????????????????????????  Thom to old???????????????????  Wake up and smell the roses man!  Theres not many WARDERS out there that can manage what Thom can and if you haven't recognized that by now then as I said to zero IQ man above,  you don't want to hear what I have to say.<br /><br />Thom as Moraine's warder?  We'll see.  I haven't been sold on the idea,  but if it comes to that. Moraine couldn't find anyone better suited for the job on short notice than Thom.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 20:59:19
subject: <b>No Way in Hell</b>
body:
No way, as much as I like Moiraine, it just wouldn't happen.  Elayne is going to have Alaana pass the bond to her.  Thats just how it will be.


created: 2002-05-28 21:30:23
subject: <b>Question?</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Moiraine said, sometime in the earlier books, that she knew the face of the man she would marry. She's known of Min for a long time, and I personally think that's a vision Min had while she, Lan, Rand, Nynaeave, Perrin, Thom, Egwene, and Mat were in Baerlon. She also gave Rand a letter to give to Thom. Min's failed vision was Moiraine and Thom's marriage.<br /><br />Suck that, Mr. Intelligence, I mean, Al'Thor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 23:45:18
subject: <b>absolutely no way....</b>
body:
First, Min's comments about Moiraine in COS are nothing that haven't been discussed before, many times. Second, Min's viewing about Moiraine most certainly was not that she would come back from the dead.  Otherwise, why would she think it had failed?  Rather, she would think that it was only half fulfilled.  But since the death part came true, why would Min doubt the return?  Obviously that wasn't her viewing.  Rather it was more like that she would hook up with Thom, for reasons already stated innumerable times.  Or very simply that Rand needed her to win.  Just like she has already seen about Mat and Perrin with the lights like fireflies filling up the darkness.  Maybe the lights fill up the darkness quicker when Moiraine is near Rand, too. However, if she is dead, then Min would think her viewing failed, wouldn't she? Finally, there are just so many hints that there is something between Thom and Moiraine that those who don't like the idea should just get over it.  Think Julian and Amathera.  The undercurrents of Thom's remarks about Moiraine are remarkably similar to Julian's thougths about the seemingly unreachable Thera.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 23:58:21
subject: <b>Moiraines Warder?</b>
body:
#1, Who says Moiraine will take another Warder.  If she does it wont be Rand.  I believe she will be by his side at TG without a doubt.  But that doesnt mean she will bond him.  Or even &quot;guide&quot; him.  But she will be there when the chips are down. <br />This is a bit off the subject but what kind of fireworks will there be when Moiraine learns that Egwene is the Amirlyn (sp?) and they meet face to face.  What a shock for Moiraine!  That will be a cool scene Im sure.


created: 2002-05-29 09:45:45
subject: <b>*sigh* Deductive Reasoning.</b>
body:
Ok. Who she can't bond, and why:<br /><br />Perrin: Distrusts AS, married to bitc.... I mean Faile. Never was too attached to Moiraine.<br /><br />Matt: REALLY distrusts AS, Has the whole Tuon thing going for him, the only reason he'll help save her is because she wasn't that bad, he's got a thing for protecting those crazy women,and he wants 'revenge' on the finn.<br /><br />Rand: He's already bonded to FOUR WOMEN. Christ. Sure, it would be great for resolving what's her frick's bond, but passing it on, but that would totally destroy/change/taint whatever trust and relationship she had with Rand. Even if she's not comming back in an advisor position, she still will want to have a good relationship with the Dragon Reborn, no? A bond would be a great way to destroy that friendship.<br /><br />Lan: Well, I can think of a certain someone who wouldn't be too happy with that..... This cattle's been branded.<br /><br />Thom: Well... um... he's old. Yeah, that's about it. And there's the whole nephew thing, but that's more a problem with the reds, and not AS in general. That prolly makes him MORE likely to join Moiraine, cause she's gonna kick some red ass when she comes back...<br /><br />Here's the beef though: Cool warder ninja magic that people get when bonded. Who knows, it might cure Thom of his gimpy limp. He DOES rock, he is kind of a bad ass, right? It would be a big change, going from the indestructable man tank to the sly gleeman pimp, but it's pretty obvious that Moiraine's going to change when she comes back. Warder's get a lot of benifits from being bonded, and those benifits might counter balance Thom's age. If he's this kick ass now, image how he'd be under a bond, a few years younger, right? Plus, he hasn't had a couple of yellows at his leg yet, I'm sure there's room for some fixin there...<br /><br />So, yes, I like this theory, for the most part. But I don't agree with all of it.<br /><br />Also: A quick note. I don't know if bonding's effects are stackable. Do more bonds give you more benifits? They do come with mroe drawbacks though.... Like, more targets to kill or hurt to hurt you. (four women to hurt/kill to hurt/kill Rand....).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 11:26:26
subject: <b>a few idle thoughts . . . . .</b>
body:
One thing's for sure, RJ sure has set up some excellent writing opportunities for himself when various characters meet up with each other again.<br /><br />Rand &amp; Galad<br />Rand &amp; Gawyn<br />Rand &amp; Galina<br />Rand &amp; Masema<br />Rand &amp; Bayle Domon<br />Rand &amp; the Black Tower<br />Elayne &amp; Perrin<br />Elayne/Nynaeve &amp; Egeanin<br />Siuan/Leane &amp; Elaida/Alviarin<br />Lan &amp; Moiraine (&amp; Nynaeve's thoughts on the matter . . . )<br />Nynaeve &amp; Moiraine<br />Cadsuane &amp; Moiraine<br />Egwene &amp; Moiraine<br />Nynaeve &amp; Myrelle<br />Morgase &amp; Gareth Bryne<br />Morgase &amp; Thom<br />Sorilea &amp; Lini<br />Thom &amp; the Red Ajah<br />Mat &amp; just about anybody <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And I forget, does Juilin know who Amathera really is?<br /><br />I agree that Thom would make a more than capable Warder.  The ability to survive a head to head encounter with a Fade using only a couple knives is a pretty good testament to his combat ability.  And the only healing for his knee he's ever received was by Moiraine.  While she's certainly capable in that department, I don't think she's in the same league as Nynaeve, Damer Flinn, that Kin woman (forget her name).  Before that injury, we see him in Emond's field doing backflips, cartwheels, etc.  Hardly a typical old man.  And despite his physical prowess, his true strength is from behind the scenes, as he's demonstrated time &amp; time again.  Moiraine &amp; Thom working together towards a common goal would be pretty scary.


created: 2002-05-29 11:48:05
subject: <b>Not on yer nellie</b>
body:
Am I the only one who thinks Alanna would not want to give up her bond now? Admittedly she did want to pass it off originally, but shes as happy as larry now. So I cant see her passing the bond off to anybody.<br /><br />As for Thom, that is far more likly bet<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Destiny, you cannot destroy my Destineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee<br />*PoP*<br />-Infamous last words</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 12:57:40
subject: <b>I don't think so.....</b>
body:
For one, Thom is still a bad ass! (Or haven't you read the books) Damit, nickIQ answered faster than I could, but he commented on the fact that bonding Moraine could help his leg out. It could also in general help him not feel his age.<br /><br />Furthermore, there are already 'old' warder who still are still tougher than your ordinary type of warrior. Jaem is the first to come to mind, but I think I can recall others.<br /><br />Second, I can think of at least one person who swore they would never be the pawn of an Aes Sedai, who later did become a warder. Lan. And it was Moraine who convinced him, in New Spring.<br /><br />Thom's fight, IMHO, is really with the Red Ajah, and Moriane could actaully have been trying to help her cause by giving him the names of those who stilled Owen. That may have been her way of trying to convince Thom that it is just the red he should be mad at.<br /><br />Now, we really don't know a whole lot about passing bonds. Is it possible for Allana to pass her bond to Rand's trio who already share a bond with him? I don't know. If it is that would seem most reasonable.<br /><br />I do think Moriane will be a welcome advisor to Rand. The other ruler who has always had a Aes Sedai advisor are the Quenns of Andor. But as far as I know, those Aes Sedai have never bonded the Queen. My point being is that Moriane can help Rand without being bonded to him.<br /><br />My vote goes to Moraine bonding Thom alone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 14:25:01
subject: <b>Re: tag zero and ....</b>
body:
I never said Thom is too old for Moiraine. I'm asuming he's in his 40's to 50's and she is in her 40's. So no, I don't think the age thing is a big deal. <br />I have read the books enough times to know what's going on and I just do not see it. You people are just obsessed with finding a match for everyone. Whoever Moiraine's 'match' is, I hope it is not Thom because... Yeah. Not my idea of fun. But hey, you guys go on thinking your sickly, twisted ideas and I will go on thinking mine. <br />And I think my IQ and self control levels are quite a bit higher than yours, thank you very much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 20:37:48
subject: <b>Yeesh...</b>
body:
&quot;Since this is the most likely scenario - that Moiraine will end up becoming an advisor for Rand again - who better to be her Warder than Rand?&quot;<br /><br />I couldn't stand it with one woman in my head, but with Elayne, Aviendha, Alanna, Min (Did she actual have part of the bond?), and Moiraine...<br /><br />If Lews Therin doesn't drive him mad, five women in his head will.


created: 2002-05-30 16:06:05
subject: <b>Note</b>
body:
I never suggested Alanna would keep Rand's bond, if Moiraine was to end up with Rand.  I specifically stated that the prerequisite for a bond between Rand and Moiraine would be the passing of Alanna's bond.<br /><br />Just to clear a few things up.<br /><br />Also want to reiterate the whole advisor is NOT the same as a guide point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Rand al`Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></b><br /><br /><font color="Blue"><b>Elayne Trakand</b></font>'s Warder and <font color="Purple"><b>Alexia</b></font>'s Guardian!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 16:37:41
subject: <b>al Cor</b>
body:
In the future please let us know when you are speaking of what you'd wish to happen in the story.  The rest of us will talk about what is likely to happen based on what we KNOW has happened to this point.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 09:11:20
subject: <b>Chill!</b>
body:
Chill Columbo, don't have such a stress attack over it! Jeez Louise, some people! O.O;; Just because I don't see Thom and Momo getting it on together, it's no reason to bite my head off! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 22:46:41
subject: <b>I want her to bond Galad!!</b>
body:
Heh heh. I think that she should bond Galad because he has the skills with a sword that she has come to depend on. Rand can't guard her all the time but poor Galad is left all alone. I hope that she gets her hands on a good San'Angreal so that she can keep up with Galads sword moves.. She has great skills but she needs more power. Ofcourse its I think that she has Far more chance of bonding Aram LOL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 20:05:09
subject: <b>I think RJ said...(can't find it in articles here but..)</b>
body:
that Moiraine would not return to the same position with Rand that she previously held, but would continue to help in other ways.  I can't find where that is maybe I'm just delusional but oh well that's what I seem to remember.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Member of the WoT-Jedi Council <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My First Duty is to the Truth<br />I am Jack's complete lack of Surprise</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 20:13:38
subject: <b>too kinky for Moiraine</b>
body:
Have we forgotten the effects of a multi-person bond?  Birgitte and Aviendha got drunk because they were so embarrassed when Elayne and Rand got together.  I doubt Moiraine would want to intrude in this love-quandrangle.  Nope nope nope!!!  She's a prissy Cairhienin.  Come on now.<br /><br />So who will her new Warder be?  I have no clue, but I would personally prefer to see her WITHOUT a Warder.  I think of her as the Gandalf-figure in the series.  Like Gandalf, she vanishes, left for dead, and... will reappear stronger than ever.  She will be like a deity... or a Lightfriend.  I hope she would operate as a agent unto herself, like Cadsuane.  No partner.  No love sub-plot.  She will just arise like the Phoenix from the ashes and guide the world towards victory over the Dark One!<br /><br />Go Moiraine!     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-02 19:14:36
subject: <b>Who says she is dead?</b>
body:
Everyone is making the assumption that she died. Just because Lanfear died does not mean that Moiraine did, in fact it is possible that Moiraine killed Lanfear (more on this later). The only reason people believe that she died is because Min believes it when she says &quot; what good to tell Rand that he would almost certainly fail without a women who was dead and gone&quot;. No Moiraine is alive. RJ will not ever bring any of the good guys back from the dead, because if he does it won't make sense. <br />As for who Moiraine will bond, RAFO. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would rather be feared then loved&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-04 10:21:22
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Well you said that in some of your theory he might be gaining from the multiple bonds. My question is this, if Rand does not know he is getting all these advantages from the bonds, and is still pissed off about being bonded against his will, why would he want another to be bonded to him even if it is Moiraine?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*insert creative sig here*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 10:54:45
subject: <b>Thom's respect</b>
body:
I remember in one of the first three books Thom talking about moiraine and what he thinks about her.  I think he says something along the lines of trusting her with my life and not having a choice about it.  sounds like Jordan forshadowing to me but I am but a lowly hermit.


created: 2002-06-06 17:50:53
subject: <b>Moiraine and...?</b>
body:
I think we all agree that if Moiraine does end up taking a new Warder, he will need to be experienced, skilled, and smart... So far, most possibilities point to Thom, and hey, I think that'd be great... However, I haven't heard one person mentioned who I feel is a possibility.<br /><br />Tam Al'Thor is a blademaster and very skilled with the bow; He is also well-respected and a very intelligent man. Even though he's been hanging around the Two Rivers for the past 20 years, he's still a good fighter, and a good few years younger than Thom.  Moiraine save Tam's life, and helped to save Rand's several times; he might feel he is indebted to her.  Also, sooner or later Tam is finally going to hear that Rand is the Dragon and go to him... if Moiraine is back by then, it gives her an extra link to him.  If Moiraine isn't going to fall back into the advisor role, then why not become connected to him through his father as his father's Aes Sedai or ... possibly even step-mother?<br /><br />I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, I just figured I'd throw this possibility out on the board... plus, I personally think it'd be a cool match...


created: 2002-06-11 21:38:08
subject: <b>TAM?!!!!</b>
body:
TAM?!!!!!!!!!!! That's the most OUT THERE theory I've read in a LONG time. However... that WOULD give Rand a very good reason to keep Moiraine around him and alive... Warders tend to die when their Aes Sedai do. Hmmmmm... maybe not such a long shot as I thought, but still pretty far out there. The logical Warder, if any at all, would be Moiraine's future husband, Thom Merrilin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 21:29:19
subject: <b>The Tower ???</b>
body:
Has anyone givin any thought as to how Morraine will be rescued. I think that it will probably have something to do with the Tower of Ghengai. I feel that Matt and Thom will be central to this. Matt because he's been to Finnland before and because of RJ's use of &quot;Snakes and Foxes&quot; with Matt and Olver. Also Matt's thought while playing that there must be a way to win, including cheating. Iron to bind, fire to blind and music to dazzle ( or close to that). I think that Matt will take fire and iron into the Tower (if anyone can find a way in Matt can) and Thom will bring his harp and flute. That, I feel will lead up to Thom pulling Morraine from the flames and bring her back. Consequently that could well lead to him becoming her warder.<br /><br />Perrin51<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 16:31:31
subject: <b>perrin51</b>
body:
Almost everyone who has a brain takes it as practically a fact that Moiraine will be rescued through the Tower of Ghenjei. Maybe that's why no one mentioned it, eh genius? God, I CAN'T STAND STUPID PEOPLE!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 01:57:04
subject: <b>If your theory is true then...</b>
body:
In The Fires of Heaven (page 214, hardcover), Egwene has the dream that has led everyone to believe Mat and Thom will be involved with Moiraine's eventual rescue: &quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot; <br /><br />Could this have to do with Mat losing his eye? Assuming your theory is true. If Mat loses his eye to save Moraine, and in turn Moraine saves Rand some how. Isn't he losing half the light of the world to save the world? I dunno. It seems right to me. But great theory one of the best I've read yet.


created: 2002-07-19 19:55:18
subject: <b>re:I want her to bond Galad!!</b>
body:
Oh, no, Galad's got to end up with Berelain! If nothing else to cheese off the Faile-hating, &quot;Perrin should be with Berelain&quot; crowd.<br /><br />I don't see Moirane bonding a new Warder after she is rescued from, uh, where ever she is (OK, OK, probably the Tower). Two books to go? Tar'mon Gaidon gotta happen pretty soon, when will she have the time?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Heh, Heh... Aiel are cool! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 15:57:32
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
Consider that the woman who is &quot;dead and gone&quot; that Rand needs could be Lanfear,<br /> although less likely than Moiraine, it leaves the possiblity that she really is dead.


created: 2002-10-18 21:17:24
subject: <b>Bonds can be terminated</b>
body:
Moirane didn't necessarily die when she took lanfear to the finns. Aes sedai can pass AND terminate bonds, and she quite likely terminated the bond with Lan when she thought to herself that he would have to survive the encounter on his own, or when she went through the doorway to convince Lan that she was dead so that he wouldn't try to go to the tower of genji to save her (once she realized she wasn't really dead). <br /><br />So, bond terminates, passes to Merille(sp?) upon termination (via death or choice, doesn't matter), and things are taken care of in her PoV. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-21 00:41:10
subject: <b>No not Rand</b>
body:
the theory states:<br />&quot;she's come to depend on having a Warder around&quot;<br /><br />Whatever else Rand does he is not the traditional warder figure. That quote suggests that she needs a fighting man now and then, for looks or for actual fighting. Rand is neither, as he has his own battles.


created: 2002-10-31 19:28:38
subject: <b>I wonder. . .</b>
body:
Considering all the history between Cadsuane and Moiraine, I think it almost impossible for both to be counselors to Rand.  As for Thom's wardering abilities, I think he has proved himself to be more than capable time and time again.<br />I think he would be a great warder for Moiraine.


created: 2002-11-06 18:21:51
subject: <b>Strange things happen to people who go through the doorways...</b>
body:
In a few different instances we have seen old characters die and receive new bodies, and we've seen how you can have your head messed with (Mat and his new memories). And as far as I know, everyone -without exception- has been changed in one way or another after going through the doors to the Aelfin or Eelfin. Who's to say the Thom won't be changed in some way when he goes to rescue Morraine? I for one believe that the two of them will end up together. Perhaps Thom will get a new body, or be young again when they get out. You sort of brushed aside Thom as a warder because of his age (not that I think that would be too much of a problem), but what about if he wasn't old anymore? I realize that this is not likely, and there has been nothing up to this point to suggest that anything of the sort will ever happen, but how many things we never imagined or expected has happened in this story? Robert Jordan seems to enjoy throwing in twists that stand all expectations on their heads and takes things off on a totally new direction, yet makes it all just that much more fantastic to read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mara Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Servant of all, slave to none<br />Peaceful warrior, ignorant scholar<br />Hopelessly hopeful, patiently persistant<br />One of many, yet one of a kind.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 05:02:33
subject: <b>My vote is for Thom</b>
body:
I'm in the Moiraine-hooking-up-with-Thom camp.  I've thought that since the first time I read it.  If Moiraine does bond a new Warder, I think it will be Thom.  As for the theory that Moiraine voluntarily  released Lan's bond, as someone put forward, I don't think that's what happened.  I don't have an explanation for what did happen, but I don't think that releasing the bond would have the same effect on the Warder as the Aes Sedai dying.  And Lan's reaction was as if Moiraine had died.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Vengeance is Mine,&quot; sayeth the Lord.  I'm just here to arrange the meeting.<br />This is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 18:41:48
subject: <b>Rand doesn't need moraine</b>
body:
I like moiraine as much as the next guy, and would Love to see her come back, but in responsed to the first paragraph where it says that min says that she doesn't want to tell rand about needing help from someone dead and gone, the person is not moiraine.  Who keeps following rand around saying, if I don't help him feel emotions again, everything will be horrible(not a quote)?  Cadsuane.  She is the one that rand needs.<br />


created: 2002-12-31 14:16:44
subject: <b>Im impressed really</b>
body:
I think many of us WOT readers have already established that indeed Moraine shall come back... and although i am one of the band crew of Moiraine with Thom crew i think your theory is absolutely great! <br />I know that Moiraine will get with Thom or atleast that she likes him is because of the sufficient evidence in the books (C'MON YOU CANT BE THAT BLIND!) <br />But ignorin that factor right now, I think it is highly Plausible for Moiraine to bond with Rand and i actually hope it does happen (you knoe for a short while i thought moiraine liked him... but yah... I WAS YOUNG! lol)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vishnu of the 3rd Order <br />Recorded Time Dragon <br />Recorded Sorceress of the Fire Plane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Devoted servant of Knowledge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Novice of the White Tower (Hey im workin my way up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />Oh yes and i love michael shanks... lol.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-01 23:00:31
subject: <b>maybe shell bond an ashaman</b>
body:
maybe she'll bond an ashaman like so many other have done and eventually will do. or (on a lighter note) maybe she'll bond with logain and have this huge orgy involvin moirane, logain, toviene, and gabrelle. im sure gabe will enjoy that immensly...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 10:13:16
subject: <b>I can't believe there are people who disbelieve</b>
body:
<br />Of course Thom becomes Moiraine's new carder ... could it be more obvious???? I'm not going to re-iterate all the points noted above ... but to the person who said that thom's too old ?? He's A) one of the best players of DD in Randland, and B) deadly with his knives. What does a warder need more?


created: 2003-05-28 01:08:33
subject: <b>i cant believe that i read all of that 4 rand as warder</b>
body:
i want my 5minutes back ditchbag. thom will be her warder, she will save him from near death (ala birgitte).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>NEKRO</b><br /><b>VIVA LA REAGAN REVOLUCION</b><br /> <br /><b>Forget the dog he will sh<i></i>it in the den today a gat is mans best friend</b><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 20:52:31
subject: <b>Moiraine will not Bond Rand-</b>
body:
She will Bond Thom, in addition to marrying him.  She really is VERY fond of him.  After he is in on her rescue. it is a foregone conclusion,<br /><br />As for age, I surmise Thom is about Gareth Bryne`s age-in his mid to upper 50s.  Moiraine is about in her mid 40s- I think 45 years old.  Based on Gabrielle`s comments, Thom will feel a lot younger!<br /><br />In addition to all that, they are a perfect match- enjoying each other`s company.  Thom appreciates her laughing at his quips.<br /><br />I can hardly wait for all the other meetings in the future, mentioned in an earlier thread.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-18 18:33:47
subject: <b>Odd Thought</b>
body:
while I was reading this theory, I had an odd thought.  where did moraine learn bailfire? and then i read that you thoght moraine would replace cadsuane as advisor to rand. then it hit me.  About the same time cadsuan was most active, Moraine and suane were looking for the dragon reborn. Cadsuane taught moraine bailfire and a few other helpful weaves. such as how to sheild men.  and thte sa'angreal in the shape of a small blue stone. end odd thoght.    Terin


created: 2004-10-25 02:47:10
subject: <b>I am afraid I must disagree...Somewhat</b>
body:
While the theory is sound I don't think Rand will be bonded by Moiraine.  While it is true it would benifit her greatly and the other three probably would not mind at all, Rand might have something to say about it and I don't think Moiraine would &quot;feel&quot; right about that situation.  I don't know who (if any)will be her next Warder but I think her sense of right and wrong would prevail on her not bonding Rand.


created: 2004-10-30 17:08:26
subject: <b>MOIRAINE BUT NOT THOM</b>
body:
Im sorry but moiraine will not bond thom, i mean the two of them would end up trying to manipulate each other so much that they wouldnt notice TG. Personally I think Lan should return to being her warder but nyneave might have a problem with that. Out of all of the male characters Rand would be the one who i think would be the best as her warder, just as long as he stays celibate for a while or Moiraine might do something regretable<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> lives <br />&quot;the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> wills&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-13 11:54:06
subject: <b>Read ALL of this!</b>
body:
here goes.......<br /><br />nyn will get lan's bond. about 5 mins after getting him, the bond will just vanish from nyn, but lan wont notice a change. then he will feel a tugging on the bond in th night, and will sneek off to find out what the hell is happening-nyn will also be out on a secret mission and he will think its her he's going to. he will find moiraine whos bond was ressurected when she enters Randland dimensions again, and all together they will head back to nyn and rand with mat etc. then moiraine and lan will agree to terminate the bond, and rise into the air surrounded by lights etc exactly like shrek and fiona at the end of SHREK 2.<br /><br />then moiraine, lacking a warder, will go to rand with thom. finding that cadsuane is advising him fine, she enters into his confidence/little sister role, as he called her that earily on in the series.<br />she will spend her days lolling around with thom. he will ask her about the letter and they will become vague friends. <br />he will say he cant bring down the certain reds *ahem ELAIDA* alone and breaks his pride completly to ask MOIRAINE an Aes Sedai, Cairhien, and Potential Queen (all of which are not really his type) to help him. <br /><br />she will have to weigh her growing liking of him and knowelage of what is right to do, against all her oaths to the white tower and to her sisters. As she decides to help him, she breaks (emotianlly) all conections to the modern, wrongheaded AS. <br />they go to egwene, where she meets siuan again and all the rebel AS and, under pretext of having married and come to visit siuan, (using that weave which hides your abilities to channel to make them believe she was stilled and inst helping eggy). they will learn of gwenes capture, and mo and siuan, will take over the Rebel AS. <br />The sneaky foursome (gareth siuan moiraien and thom) will get eggy out using poilitical skills, fighting skills, siuan's knowelgage of the tower and moiraine's newly (and secretly) increased strength, and take down elaida for her, then together root out the black ajah using the secret hunters within the tower and eliminate them or use them. <br />Eggy, moiraine siuan and rand will be the first of a new breed of AS, the decent honerable ones with people from all societies, and both genders. When they're all settled, moiraine and thom will marry and bond, and so will gareth and siuan and they'll all live happliy ever after! until TG that is..............<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-29 15:06:17
subject: <b>Well 4 one...lets get this straight...</b>
body:
I'll keep it simple...Rand is to die and Live again(He'll probably switch bodies with Moridin...Min,Elayne,Aveindha will die after they give birth...Moiraine will return and bond a new warder...I know some think thom..but i don't think so...it'll be Rand/Moridin...You ask why i say rand will swap bodies with Moridin...simple..Moridin is Lews Therin Telamon's Son...'The Dragon's blood Spilt at Shayol Ghul&quot;...well a child of the original dragon...at shayol...but thats my opinion...


created: 2002-05-30 12:01:28
subject: <b>Disagree about the first half.........</b>
body:
but the second part is brilliant.  No way is Rand going to use Callador, even without a buffer it cannot compete with the strength of the Choeden Kal.  Why would he take the chance with a weaker sa'angreal that is flawed?????<br /><br />Loved the second half though, interesting about Rand walking throught he hole, and the wand and Alivia.  I've forgotten about the wand, I wonder who has it in the White Tower right now.....it would definitly be something that Messana would try and take.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />  plus  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />  equals  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-30 12:31:23
subject: <b>The wand sucks.</b>
body:
I don't really think the wand is worth anyone's time.  I mean, during Nynaeve's first few days at the Tower, she felt she could channel half of what a full circle of thirteen using it could.  Now it's possible that they weren't using it to it's potential, but that's not a very impressive amount of saidar compared to what we've seen recently.<br /><br />I mean, even Graendal's wussy little ring angreal allows her to channel twice what she normally could, which would be roughly the same amount as the circle of 13 w/ the wand sa'angreal.<br /><br />I think a more likely scenario involves Elayne creating a new access key.  She has had success creating &quot;linking&quot; ter'angreal before in the a'dam.


created: 2002-05-30 12:39:17
subject: <b>It wouldn't make sense</b>
body:
It wouldn't make sense for Rand to use Callandor. I mean, as strong as it was, and even in a link, he'd be lucky to desrtoy a continent, and that's if he killed himself with that much power. We also know that the female part of the chodean kal is unuseable now because it had a.....meltdown. But even then, The amount of power that Rand had flowing through him was so great that he had trouble controlling it. And with it, he could have easily laid waste to the continent. The second theory wasn't so bad, but I don't know, I just have a hard time believing that he would choose a flawed Sa' Angrel over a perfectly good one thats emensly stronger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 12:58:28
subject: <b>Using *angreal</b>
body:
Don't get caught up in expecting Rand to try to survive. From what we see, he firmly believes he's going to die at Tarmon Gaidin, so he very well may WANT what Callandor can give him.<br /><br />The idea I try to toy with is trying to view a Rand after Tarmon Gaidin.  I seriously doubt, if he somehow survives, that he'll be able to channel. (just a hunch...but Rand is determined to be competent or expert in things besides channelling)<br /><br />If he doesn't expect to live, he may not particularly care about conserving his channeling.


created: 2002-05-30 12:58:46
subject: <b>Me likey</b>
body:
Me likey a lot!!<br /><br />It makes sense that the lack of a barrier on the amount of the OP is necessary to get the job done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 14:47:01
subject: <b>Disagree with Vashti..........</b>
body:
I know Rand doesn't plan on surviving Tarmon Gai'den (sorry if I spelt it wrong), but he does plan on surviving long enough during the battle to win!!!  There would be no point in him using callador at the begining of the battle just to die right then, he needs to win first then die.


created: 2002-05-30 16:23:02
subject: <b>About The General Consensus...</b>
body:
The reason why almost everyone thinks Rand will use the Choedan Kal at Tarmon Gaidon is because he's supposed to break the world. Callandor is a fraction the strength of the Choedan Kal. Besides, Elayne could probably make a new female access key to the sa'angreal. The two huge Choedan Kal being used together to fight the Shadow would fulfill the prophecies by breaking the world. Also, I agree with Deathbone on this: why would Rand use a flawed sa'angreal instead of a perfectly fine sa'angreal that makes Callandor look like a fly speck?<br /><br />Sorry, but I disagree with this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 16:26:45
subject: <b>Of course</b>
body:
I'm not saying he'd use it to beat Demandred or anything; it'd be more like (just a wild statement), Rand pouring an endless stream of balefire into the DO in the final gambit.<br /><br />Keep in mind, he's a pretty big gambler himself. I guarantee you that the winning move will not be something pre-planned, hashed out, discussed, debated, etc.(except with himself, maybe).  Rand will spring a surprise and pour everything he has into it.<br /><br />Callandor would fit that purpose. <br /><br />and once more, this is just a guess -- but it fits his profile.


created: 2002-05-30 17:10:39
subject: <b>heck...</b>
body:
...i just can&#180;t decide....I&#180;ll give it a maybe.<br />It would certainly have flair if rand would use callandor.<br />but as always RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 19:06:00
subject: <b>This is somewhat controversial. . . . . .</b>
body:
In most the cases, Rand used Callandor cause the Chodean Kal weren't around. I think that he doesn't use Callandor or the Chodean Kal just for the heck of it either. He uses them with great reluctance. <br /><br />However, the part where Rand holds off while the prison is sealed is good.. . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 19:56:57
subject: <b>Not Callandor because Size Matters!</b>
body:
Rand using Callandor at Tarmon Gaidon would be like Harry Truman ordering the use of really really big conventional bombs to try and end the war instead of Fat Man and Little Boy.  A previous post said they though Rand would have to be near the Bore, but it was my understanding that the Bore had no &quot;there,&quot; as such.  Personally, I feel Rand dominates Tarmon Gaidon until the Dark One breaks free.  Then whatever he's using, probably the male access key but it could be Callandor as well, gets obliterated.  In desperation, Rand travels to just outside Cairhein and accesses the male sa'angreal directly to seal the Bore &quot;permanently,&quot; but burns himself out in the process and probably blows up the big statue too.  In fact, at that point he's probably so hurt he doesn't know who he is and goes around as a beggar.<br /><br />Just a thought.  Back to lurker mode.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Crabuki<br /><br />Father of Emmaline Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Husband to Jennlene the Queenlene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Making pretty babies since August 2001 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 20:32:12
subject: <b>It's not how big, but how you use it</b>
body:
There seems to be discussion about whether the 'hugeness' of CK is better or the 'bufferless' ability of Call is better. Given the point just made by Crabuki, it's possible that CK is obliterated by the DO and then Rand grabs the next best thing- Call, being the second most powerful male Sa'angreal in the world.<br />Not sure about the theory though- I don't think that the sword imagery is vital, it'll be a matter of what Rand does on the spur of the moment to throw everyone off (think travelling to the waste using the stone).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 23:24:15
subject: <b>I don't think so......</b>
body:
Sorry but just too illogical.  Your theory hinges on Callandor being somehow more important than we think and the AOL Aes Sedai who put it where they did, knowing that and doing it for that reason.  And your support for this idea is &quot;why didn't they use the access key instead?&quot;  Oh, I can think of a few reasons.  First, how about the fact that only a handful knew of the existance of the access keys, much less where they were.  Second, Callandor was put where it was as much to keep the insane male Aes Sedai from using it as to serve as a sign of the Dragon's return. Unlike the access keys, the whereabouts of Callandor must have been well known. Third, how dramatic would it be for someone to touch a foot tall statue that no one else could.  Not very Arthurian, huh?   On the other hand, a sword....you get the picture.<br /><br />As far as the second half of your theory, well I must echo everyone else:  why use the third strongest when the strongest is available? (Lanfear:  there are only TWO more powerful that a man can use) As the saying goes, why send a boy to do a man's job?  Same thing with the s'angrael from the Tower.  Not that big a deal.  Not when there is the possibility of fixing the access key.  Or maybe finding the elusive Ring of the Tamrylin, which just might be that stronger s'angrael we haven't yet seen.  Like I said, sorry can't agree at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 04:16:42
subject: <b>The female Figure...</b>
body:
I don't know why but i had the feeling that Both the key and the Female one were destroyed..taking the ppl of the water leaf with them..and the end of illusions was the end of their lifes...like the Aiel call this life a dream... maybe i'm wrong hehe..


created: 2002-05-31 10:41:00
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
Disagree, like most others here commenting, no way would Rand use Callandor over Choedan Kal, it'd be like using a sword when you have a uzi ready....And Narishma will wield Callandar at Tarmon Gai'don, or so I believe...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 10:56:03
subject: <b>Hmm?!</b>
body:
Callandor is more a symbol then a weapon, I know it is powerful but it was meant more as a symbol of power then as a power it self. The Choedan Kal will be used, but with the female half gone will the male hal be even stronger. The DO needs to die or Robert Jordan needs to live forever cause if the DO is sealed up again it would be like a new bible or something... Might as well start a new religion and compose all of the wheel of time into one book and carry every where you go preaching the word of Robert. OR the DO  could die end the series and we could all be happy it's over and sad the its no longer there to comfort us.


created: 2002-05-31 14:42:46
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
Can I have some of what Maisac is smoking?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 17:12:02
subject: <b>re: callandor</b>
body:
I really wish people would stop posting theories without any real evidence even circumstancial.  <br /><br />To your first part of your theory about the aessedai choosing Callandor instead of the CK to herald the dragons coming.  It is probably because they didn't have the access keys or didn't want the forsaken to know that the dragon reborn had access to the keys.  Nothing states that the aessedai gained access to the keys after the bore was sealed.  Remember the area where the keys were being made was overrun by Sammael at the end of the war.  Chances are the aessedai in Rhuidean gave them the keys when they shielded Rhuidean.<br /><br />2nd Alivia is probably going to help Rand die before Tarmon Gaidon.  Remember the vision about he who is dead yet lives?  <br /><br />3rd the rest of your theory is complete conjecture without any evidence of anykind.


created: 2002-05-31 17:50:23
subject: <b>Calm down</b>
body:
If you are so tierd of the theorys without evidence, then try to think like a writer. I'm sorry, but some of these theorys, even with minimal evidence, make more sence then some with loads (taimedred for example (I dissagre with that but hay)). Quite frankly a well thought out theory is just as good as a mediocher supported theory. <br />That and he does bring a little RJ insperation that we all might of over looked in this. Remember, the wolfhound must look more the wolfhound in the wolf's eye than his own.


created: 2002-05-31 18:25:55
subject: <b>Aren't we forgetting something here...?</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we forgetting something here? There seems to be an argument here of which sa'angreal Rand will use during the last battle, either Callandor or the choden kal one. Question: Why can't he use both? We know that someone can use two at a time because Rand once used the little fat man angreal and Callador at the same time. So what am I missing here? He can grab Aviendha and Elayne to use Callandor, if need be, but it still seems very possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 18:49:22
subject: <b>No, not really</b>
body:
I like the idea of Rand using a sword to kill the DO or seal him in, but, correct me if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that Cad. tells him he must have a female directing the flows in order for it to not be tainted. It doesn't seem like a good idea to try and make a seal on his prison with a flawed instrument. Basically I think that the Choden Khal will be used it just makes more sense. As for Rand dying I am not altogether convinced that he will. I remember a scene where everyone is mourning a paper mask of his that he breaks through. It seems to me that he needs to appear to die, and that will be what Alivia helps with. If he dies and returns to life that will make absolutely no sense and I will burn every one of His books.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su camino <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I would rather be feared then loved <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-31 21:56:59
subject: <b>Broken</b>
body:
One of the choedan chal broke when rand flamin cleansed the bloody male half of the flamin true source.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 22:04:50
subject: <b>Something I've noticed...</b>
body:
I don't know if it has struck anyone as odd that the second most powerful sa'angreal that was made during the age of legends was flawed.  I mean, they were pros at making these things, so it seems kind of odd that it were defective.  Unless of course it isn't really defective?  Maybe it was originally intended to have no buffer.  That would be the only way to explain its &quot;defectiveness.&quot;  Maybe, when you use it in conjuction with another sa'angreal (such as the CK) you can bypass the second one's buffer, and use more of the power than possible.  That would definately prove usefull, especially during TG.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-05-31 22:40:30
subject: <b>I hope this Sword is used</b>
body:
I hope that Rand uses the Sword because it seems to make him far more optimistic. Rand always seems to do things that he doesnt fully understand when he uses the Sword. With the CK he had a plan and did what he had reasoned. With the Sword he always does what feels right, and for some reason allways seems to be just what he needs. If it were me and I was as strong as he is I would want someone to guard my back with the CK. Rand will have to throw his all into whatever he does and if I were him I'd want someone with the most powerfull San'angreal to cover my back from attacks...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 02:42:55
subject: <b>I wonder....</b>
body:
How about the &quot;missing&quot; buffer actually being a way to find what you need, kinda like how Elayne and Nym found the bowl of the winds, but with weaves instead? That would mean that the &quot;buffer&quot; is still there, but it redirects Sadin in a different way.


created: 2002-06-01 15:43:21
subject: <b>Couple of Points</b>
body:
First, regarding one who is dead yet lives --<br /><br />This, and any other resurrection/death/etc. issue is totally clouded by the Lews Therin thing.  We KNOW Lews Therin died.  We KNOW Rand is the Dragon (Lews Therin, though LTT and Rand could simply be aspects of a greater element, similar to the Fisher King).  And we know that there appears to be a personality identifed as LTT that interacts within Rand's head. <br /><br />Given that these two 'different' people are essentially just aspects of the same persona, and that both people seem to have cognizance, it is quite possible that one dies (seeming to fulfil the prophecies) at Tarmon Gaidin, and one lives.  BUT...until we have more evidence, anything that ANYBODY (save RJ) mentions is just speculation.<br /><br />Regarding AS 'choosing' Callandor (and other aspects of prophecy).  The Aes Sedai did not create the conditions of the prophecy; they (or just one of them) merely identified the prophecies; they have no power over any aspect of the prophecies.<br /><br />Consider the opening chapter of Book 1:  LTT created the vast destruction that he did (and Mount Dragon) WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE!!!  If Rand is essentially as powerful as him, imagine what he can do with Callandor. LTT drew in saidar way beyond any safe limits, with some astonishing results.  I wonder if the Choedan Kal's built-in buffer would actually prevent that. <br /><br />Callandor may not be flawed -- the lack of buffer may be on purpose.  Remember -- Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends were known to perform channelling that they know (or could expect to) would kill them (see: Eye of the World).  Perhaps Callandor was created to enable such a sacrificing channeler to accomplish what they could not do without the augmentation.<br /><br />Just some stuff to consider.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-01 19:08:55
subject: <b>Rebuttal</b>
body:
In defence of my theory I will try to answer some of the points previously posted here.  This is very long so please bear with me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As first mentioned by <b>Huor</b> and seconded by many others, the belief is that <i>Callandor</i> is not strong enough.  But this I believe goes back to what I was saying about the enormous strength of people channeling beyond their capacity.  Lewis Therin, who should have an identical strength to Rand, was able to call down a bolt of lightning that bore a hole all the way through the planet's crust into the molten layer.  This is far in excess of anything we have seen anybody do short of the <i>Choedan Kal</i>.  With the additional focus of <i>Callandor</i>, and possibly the extra strength/stamina from being bonded 4 times, Rand may be able to match/exceed the more powerful <i>Choedan Kal</i> for a short period of time.  We have seen that Rand has been able to force himself to his utter limits time and again.  He does not have to be alive at the end of it, he just has to hold on long enough.<br /><br />As noted by <b>Daemione</b> Nynaeve thought she could maybe channel half of what the circle did with the wand, which may very well be true.  But a fair analogy of <i>angreal</i> is a microscope, think back to Jr. High Science classes.  You have the eyepiece with a set magnification setting, this is like the individual power of the <i>Aes Sedai</i>.  Then you have the bottom magnifier which is like an <i>angreal</i>.  To get 100x magnification you can use a 5x and a 20x magnifier or 10x and 10x... etc.  The <i>angreal</i> magnifies what is already there.  With someone like Alivia, that <i>sa'angreal</i> may be quite powerful.<br /><br />I do agree that Elayne will make a new access key, but it will require both <i>Choedan Kal</i> to make a prison strong enough to hold the Dark One (more on this in another theory).  Only the access key was destroyed, the actual <i>sa'angreal</i> itself is untouched.  And as yet nobody has been able to explain to me how it is known that an <b>indestructible</b> substance like <i>Cuendillar</i> becomes harder when you channel more at it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As mentioned by <b>The Dragon Lews TheRIN</b> the Dragon Reborn is supposed to break the world again.  He already has!  The entire social and political system of the world is being forced to change by his presence.  The white tower is broken, the Aiel are on their way back to the way of the leaf, nations who used to war with each other are now allies, new laws regarding peasants in Cairhien and Tear, the Seanchan Empire will probably collapse once the secret about <i>sul'dam</i> becomes known, Ogier probably leaving the Stedding, etc.  He is forcing change on the world the likes of which has not been seen since the &quot;first&quot; breaking.  To quote from &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot;:<br /><i>His coming shall be like the sharp edge of the plow, turning our lives in furrows from out of the places where we lie in our silence.  The breaker of bonds'; the forger of chains.</i><br /><br /><b>damookster</b> and <b> first punic war</b> state that all of this is nothing but supposition.  And to some extent this is true because until Robert Jordan put it on paper we have no proof as to what is going to happen.  The only time we really know anything is when he makes it really obvious, like Thom will rescue Moiraine.  But if we return to &quot;The Dedicated&quot; from &quot;The Shadow Rising&quot; we know that a crystal sword (i.e. <i>Callandor</i> for those of you really slow on the uptake) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> and the Dragon Banner were present on the table when an <i>Aes Sedai</i> said:<br /><i>What good is your Foretelling, if you cannot tell us when?  The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!&quot;</i><br />Now these same sisters sent the Aiel off with a vast collection of <i>ter'angreal</i>, <i>angreal</i>, and maybe <i>sa'angreal</i>.  I am willing to bet that the two access keys were among the items sent off that eventually made thier way to Rhuidean.  So what did the <i>Aes Sedai</i> fortell that might mean the very existance of the Wheel itself?  I propose that it is the need of the Dragon Reborn to have <i>Callandor</i> at <i>Tarmon Gai'don</i> in order to defeat the Dark One!<br /><br />To <b>kael</b> with respect to Cadsuanne's information about <i>Callandor</i>.  The sword magnifies the effect of the taint requiring a sister to &quot;filter&quot; it and also required a female to lead the circle so that the male did not draw too much power.  The taint is gone, so the need for a sister to &quot;filter&quot; the flow is gone, and if Rand leads the circle of 2 he can draw as much of the One Power as he darn well feels like! <br /><br />*phew* defending my theory is longer than the theory itself!  To anyone who has read this far thanks for bearing with me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-01 19:52:18
subject: <b>and one more thing...</b>
body:
When Rand used the Choedal Kal, Lews Therin began screaming &quot;YOU FOOL!  THEY WERE NEVER TRIED!  THEY WERE NEVER TESTED!  YOU WILL DESTROY US ALL, YOU FREAK!&quot;  Or something along those lines.<br /><br />The most powerful sa'angreal made during the Age of Legends were ALL flawed.  They were made in haste by desperate Aes Sedai.  Or perhaps it's very difficult to make such immensely powerful tools.<br /><br />So saying that Rand should use the Choedal Kal because it is unflawed is not a valid argument.  It's unflawed ONLY as far as we know...


created: 2002-06-01 21:57:22
subject: <b>Yep you are right</b>
body:
Assuming that the taint is totally removed Rand can indeed direct the flows. Sometimes it is hard to remember how much the taint being gone will change things.


created: 2002-06-01 22:46:13
subject: <b>Well, I guess I like part of it</b>
body:
but I believe Narishma, not Rand, will use Callandor at Tarmon Gai'don. My belief stems from one of Egwene's dreams where &quot;A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was&quot;. Callandor shines like that when used. Narshima did use Callandor during the cleansing of Saidin, of course, but not in the foreground, and not to do much of anything important, as I recall. I doubt Egwene would have a dream about something that's not very important. What would be important enough for a Dreamer to see is the use of Callandor, the second most powerful sa'angreal made for a man, in Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />I do like the part with Alivia, though. And the imagery thing is cool too, I simply think Narishma with Callandor makes more sense<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-02 06:30:05
subject: <b>I didn't read all the latest replys but...</b>
body:
what about the Sad Bracelets, they will come into play, and without the Taint, they will function pretty well no? There will be no fight for control, just harmony, but it will be SAD, Rand will die. Rand has 3 girls, 2 of whom can channel, hook them up to the Sad Bracelets, and presto, you got the Dragon linked to his two fav gals rdy to rock and roll. Maybe he will wield the sword too while this happens, who knows. But the Sad Bracelets will play a part yet, for sure, they have been around too long not to. The CK, last battle, I think no, they were built to match the DO, and just for the fact that they were built for that, I think it won't happen, it's your typical things are going to happen not like we expect deal. Sword that is not without buffer and Rand with a Collar held by his two girl friend channelers, much more likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 11:32:43
subject: <b>why?</b>
body:
Why would Aviendha/Elayne need the bracelets?  They're not going to need to control him.  If they wanted to do something together &amp; have one of the chicks lead the flows, they could just link normally.  The bracelets are only a factor for the Seanchan, in their attempt to try &amp; control him (although, they're going to have to come up with several hundred more sets to take care of the Asha'man).<br /><br />And if the point of using Callandor is that there's no buffer, why would he want to link to gain a buffer?


created: 2002-06-05 00:49:12
subject: <b>Where did the &quot;Sad Bracelets&quot; come from?</b>
body:
I thought that that was a type of male A'dam but when was it made? I thought that a'dams were made after Hawkwing sent his sons to a different land. I thought it was made by Aes Sedai over on the new land. I didn't think that they had &quot;forced links&quot; in the Age of Legends. When was it made, in the First age? Somewhere after the Third? How can it be on Rands side of the world if the Return is the &quot;first&quot; time that the A'dam was brought to Rands home. Was a ship at sea lost with it, and the thing floated close enough that it was taken by a fisherman? Was it made and sent over with another person in mind? Was it even sent?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 16:21:23
subject: <b>Sad Bracelets</b>
body:
I just brought them up because everybody was talking about the different things that might be used at the last battle. There must be some reason that the bracelets &quot;feel&quot; sad. I was thinking perhaps they might be used to form the final link with Rand at the last battle. They would feel sad because they must sacrifice their savior during said battle. You bring up some very good points about them though, if the whole a'dam thing was not in the AOL, how did Moggy know so much about the things? Perhaps they were used for things other then controlling a male channeler, in fact, by Moggy's description, the man can also control the females to an extent. So exactly how long have these things existed, have they been around though every spinning of the wheel? They are made of cuendillar (sp), and therefore can&#8217;t be destroyed. So what if both parties don the bracelets working together? I am just throwing more food for thought on the table.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 15:23:40
subject: <b>heh.</b>
body:
I think Rand should put the collar on &amp; wear the bracelets himself.  Maybe then he could control Lews Therin.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I had assumed the male a'dam was created at some point during the breaking, as an attempt to control the insane male Aes Sedai.  Ishamael was around during that mess, so we can figure that's Moghedien's source of knowledge regarding them.<br /><br />As for the &quot;sad&quot; property in them, maybe the Aes Sedai were bummed out when they made it.  It was the breaking, after all, and they were developing a ter'angreal designed to enslave their former colleagues.  The making of it must have been passed down until whatshername (Hawking's friend) adapted it for use on saidar channelers.<br /><br />I don't see any use for it by the &quot;good&quot; guys, except maybe to teach a forsaken a lesson or two (Halima would be suitably ironic).


created: 2002-06-09 16:17:48
subject: <b>About what Rekesalat said...</b>
body:
YES!!! THANK YOU GOD!!! Someone else that doesn't think that Mr. FALSE DRAGON Logain will wield Callandor. NARISHMA RULES!!! And, just for all you idiots that agree with this theory, Rand is going to use the Choedan Kal. It's obvious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 10:28:25
subject: <b>Choenden Kal or not?</b>
body:
Everyone talks about the Last Battle as if it already happened. Did I miss a book? Look at it this way; the bore was probably opened using large amounts of the one power, perhaps saidin and saidar linked. It was then sealed with the maximum amount of linking between men and women. Why does anyone think it will take even more then that to remove the bore completely? The right amount of balefire would be enough to remove the bore, but how much power would be needed? Remember, when balefire was used during the War of Power whole cities were removed from the pattern. Not destroyed, just erased from time. I consider the maximum age of the average city to be 500 years during the age of legends. Now, to remove the bore would require 3200 years of balefire on Lanfear, right? She made it, linked I believe. The amount of power necessary would not require either the Choeden kal or Callandor, since neither had common use during the War of Power.


created: 2002-06-11 10:55:50
subject: <b>Deflector</b>
body:
i havent seen anyone mention the fact that Call. can deflect balefire. that could come as a huge role in TG. and the CK terrify Rand, so why would he use them at TG. true Call. isnt as powerful and it wouldnt be logical, but Rand isnt logical is he. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 17:42:20
subject: <b>In literary terms</b>
body:
it makes more sense to use Callandor than the CK.<br /><br />Why build Rand up as an expert swordsman?  Why bother having Callandor in it at all?  Its use so far has not fulfilled the hype.<br /><br />But on the other hand, the CK have been built up as able to break the world, so there must be some reason for this too.  Oh, who knows?  Will we ever get that far? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-07-02 05:42:39
subject: <b>Cal v. CK</b>
body:
From the flashback in TSR, it seems that Callandor was made well into the Breaking, after the CK access keys were lost in shadow-overrun territory. The Aes Sedai probably figured the keys were lost, or didn't know where they were, or even if you needed the keys (Strike and Shayol Ghul says only a few, even in the Lightside, knew of the keys). So they made callandor, weaker than CK, but which they figured would be needed. But now that Rand has the key..


created: 2002-07-25 01:57:12
subject: <b>um....</b>
body:
Already you can use more than one *angreal at a time so why would he need to select one or the other. Just use both.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-13 17:23:12
subject: <b>nah</b>
body:
i like the idea of this theory, but i personally think that Rand will use the Choedan Kal to fight the DO head up. and Rand will win b/c the amount of the power used will overwhelm the DO or Rand will reason out some new trick with the power. when Rand is cleansing saidin doesn't he mention something to the effect that the amount of power in callandor is like a small stream compared with the ocean of power from the Choedan Kal? maybe it was nynaeve. on a different note,  by eclipsing the buffer of callandor Rand would most likely burn himself out and then he would be useless against the DO. unless of course the DO challenged him to a sword fight. but i doubt it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-25 00:36:52
subject: <b>This fits very well.</b>
body:
I completely agree that Callandor will be Rands weapon of choice in the last battle.  One of the fortellings say specificly that Rand's death will be the key to victory in the last battle. This would fit perfectly with Rand overdrawing the one power, in one last dramatic act of self sacrafice he saves the world.  The imagery that Jordan gave us the first couple of books had people able to do extrodary things by overdrawing far surpassing their normal powers in that one last act.  I belive that this would more than compensate for Callandor not being quite as powerfull as the statue sa'aragel.  Remember that Rand didn't use Callandor for the clensing not because he didn't think was powerfull enough, but because he needed to do the weaving himself without using a woman proxy to safeguard him.  Besides Callandor is easy to carry and using the Chochen Chal seem to make the users immobile taking all of their concentration just to control it.  That would be a great hiderace during a massive battle in enemy territory.


created: 2002-11-07 14:39:16
subject: <b>The only problem with Callandor</b>
body:
Ok, first of all, I don't remember ever seeing that Callandor was unbuffered against drawing too much of the one power.  Please quote where that's said, because all I remember is that it magnifies the taint.  <br /><br />Now...Abby...what evidence do we have of the CK being flawed?  Even if LTT ranted and raved when the idea was kicked around, it means that LTT is concerned and in no way constitutes any proof that they're flawed...just that they're untested...also remember that LTT is absolutely nutso.<br /><br />Rand is learning the use of the sword because he knows he may not have access to the OP at some time, and will need to use a sword to defend himself (I believe he's said so at various times).<br /><br />Sub<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-03 14:14:38
subject: <b>Not sure but I like</b>
body:
I seem to remeber Rand thinking he could challenge the Creator with Callandor at one point. Or that there was nothing he couldnt do with it.<br /><br />I think we may be missing something though Rand may use the Key but someone else may be using Callandor in a very large link.<br /><br />I doubt they will remake the prison whole but something akin to how it was prior to the bore being drilled. Which was probably the remnant of the previous last battle.<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-02 00:47:45
subject: <b>3200 Years of Balefire</b>
body:
That's a damn cool idea(and I mean DAMN COOL!), but if that was actually how he did it, then what would happen to the 3200 years of history? And remember that balefire only cuts holes in inanimate objects, it evaporates only living beings(Rahvin, shadowhounds, etc.), so it's not necessarily true that they pulled out 500 years of threads. But even assuming that he can pull together a 3200 year balefire, then what would change? People would still have acted as though the same things had happened, and Lanfear and Shai'tan(odd hearing him actually referred to as that, used to the wimpy book names)  didn't do very much directly. But really, there's no background info on this, so we can't say how plausible it is. I don't think it's right, but that's one of the more imaginative ways of fighting Tarmon Gai'don that I've seen yet.


created: 2003-03-25 20:58:43
subject: <b>justy a small insignifcant thing</b>
body:
when you use the Quote <i>Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us.</i>  I do NOT believe that the sword in the quote is Callandor.  In a great Hunt on page 660(paperback) it says this: <i>Tall and hooked-nosed, with dark, deep-set eyes, <b>his great sword Justice</b> at his side. Artur Hawkwing</i> I believe thatthat the sward in the quote at the end is refuring to the same sword.  I think something happens with all the heros or maybe just Hawkwing.  So i dont think that you can base part of his use of Callandor on this quote.  <br /><br />I like to think he uses it but i think there more evidence for him using the CK.  i mean he decrides as an ocean compared to a stream.  Plus he knows he may die but he doesnt want to.<br /><br />well thats what i have to say.<br /><br />flame it all u want<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Truth is Shrouded by Darkness,<br />Only our Gaze Pirces the Darkest Night.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 16:52:02
subject: <b>Hmmmmmm.......</b>
body:
My Question is, why can't he use the Chodean'kal? I mean, callandor is a good sa'angreal, but the male key is much stronger, as stated many times in the book.   So why use callandor, when you can use something even stronger? just my thoughts.


created: 2003-04-29 11:39:44
subject: <b>pay attention to the theory</b>
body:
I didn't read all the comments, but most people think rand is going to use the choedan kal (which he might), but he wouldn't if he pursues the path this theory set out.<br /><br />This theory offers him going AS A DIVERSION.  If someone else would be sealing the bore, Rand would know they would need the largest amount of power they could get, hence they would use the choedan kal (both male and female, there should still be some surviving female access keys, its stated flat out in the books there were several sets made).  Rand would use the next best thing, which at the moment is Callandor.  I personally don't think he will, but within the parameters of the theory, he would.<br /><br />It is a very well thought out and reasoned theory though.  Arguments definitely make sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-12 16:51:19
subject: <b>Holding off the Dark One</b>
body:
If I remember the theory correctly, it is said that the DR will hold back the DO while the Bore heals. That may be correct, but I don`t agree. <br /><br />I do believe the Bore must heal to its original Seal made by the Creator in the beginning. IMHO, not so H, rand will first crush the seals made by LTT and then spill his blood on the dark rock of SG. This will give time for the Bore to heal while Rand and the rest of the World good people and Ogier, Wolves, etc battle Friends of the Dark, Shadowspawn,etc.  This fulfills Nicola`s Foretelling--the great battle done but the world not done with battle.<br /><br />For those who think RJ will bring WoT to our age, even if this is true, the Dark One is still with us!  To my knowledge, evil has never been defeated- only skirmishes over the Ages.<br /><br />In addition, the Dark One and the Creator are not people, like us.  They are Forces beyond anyone`s imigination, IMHO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-25 06:06:04
subject: <b>Ack.</b>
body:
The play of Tarmon Gaidon is pretty obvious to me but it seems everyone else hasn't actually paid attention while reading the books and have furthermore gotten themselves into a bickering match over the comparitive power of Callandor and the male Choedan Kal.  I'm not going to outline my theory here, it deserves a proper post all to itself but there are a few things need to be said.<br />Spelling is necessary.  You cannot balefire the bore.  Only that access ter'angreal to the female Choedan Kal was destroyed.  The Dark One's prison must be destroyed.  The seal was made by many male channelers (and no females) working together but not linked because it's impossible.<br />These points are written straight out in black and white in the books, plain as day for anyone to see.<br />Thank you.<br /><br />Dovien Gleeman - Lore Master


created: 2004-02-15 19:24:46
subject: <b>Sheathing the Sword</b>
body:
I agree with the theory that Rand will face Tarmon Gai'don with Callandor. I think that the remaining (male) access key will be used by Logain to reform the seal over the bore. Rand will decide to do it this way because he will want the most power available to reseal the Dark One, while he keeps the Dark One busy with Callandor in a duel.<br />I'm as yet unsure whether Rand will survive or not, but if he does, then he will be lessened somehow, whether burnt out, or suffering amnesia. But hey, we all hope for a happy ending!!


created: 2004-10-20 11:45:43
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
Well I don't think that given the choice Rand would choose Callandor over the Choedan Kal...but it's possible he won't be given a choice.  Maybe he'll just have to use whatever happens to be on hand.  If that were the case, I would say your theory can work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-17 00:31:31
subject: <b>A few points</b>
body:
In the prophecies it says something like &quot;Humanity will come to a crossroads of twilight, and all that is, was and all that  is yet to come will be balanced on the point of a sword&quot;. (sorry if ive got it wrong, i havent got my copy of the cycle with me).<br />This is obviously callandor.<br />And another thing, RJ talks about circles in the guide and mentons that the strongest possible circle is one with 37 women and 35 men (the most possible in a circle and the closest possible proportion of men to women).<br />Yet this has yet to be used in the story.<br />Hell we havent even had a circle with more than 2 or so men in it yet!<br />Why cant Rand circle up the Ashaman that hes got as his protectors and all of the strongest female channelers(wise ones, windfinders, damane, aes sedai etc) and use give the chlorel kai to the strongest channelers (other than himself) and use callandor. He would lead the circle (because a man has to, at these proportions) and the strongest possible cahnnelling in history would take place.<br />This would suit RJs &quot;shock&quot; style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-06 13:13:13
subject: <b>Dueling with the dark one</b>
body:
meh, could you imagine rand running around chasing after the dark one carying a foot tall statue of an old man...so not cool...<br /><br />everybodys forgeting that the statues are just ter'angreal not sa' they link to the big ones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> (or maybe your not forgetting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />oh and i read about the male a'dam awhile up...why does everybody call them sad bacelets? only nyneave is an empath (feels emotions from objects and people)


created: 2002-06-01 19:39:11
subject: <b>Awesome!!!</b>
body:
Wow, I really like this idea.  I think the supporting evidence is mostly coincidental, but it's still a nice, original comparison.<br />Egwene will need someone to save her when she's on the chopping block.  That someone will be Gawyn, I'm sure... but maybe Loial will play a part in it too.  He does have plenty of motive to go to Tar Valon.


created: 2002-06-01 20:08:09
subject: <b>Sir Loial</b>
body:
There does not seem to be a lot in this series to support this theory, but Loial certainly is the galiant character knights represented.<br /><br />Kudos on all your work on bringin this theory about<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-02 03:09:05
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
Although I don't agree, I think that might of been the premis of the Ogier. Loial doesn't fit the Paladin role at all. However, I agree it is original, and has given me something to read/think about. I do agree with your last comment about Loial helping our young Amerilin. Good work, and keep'em comming.<br /><br />Skald<br />&quot;The legend will never end&quot;


created: 2002-06-02 14:58:23
subject: <b>Loial saving Egwene?</b>
body:
I can't figure out any basis for this...they have had so little contact with each other, it would simply be coincidental, which would not only be extremely annoying, it would go against the grain of the painstakingly detailed plot.  If Egwene is betrayed, who would be more likely to save her, Loial, who's running around closing the waygates, or Gawyn, her sometime lover who will also be there, yet officially affiliated with the other side?  <br /><br />It would seem to make absolutely no logical sense whatsoever for Loial to be this person, although that alone doesn't rule him out, I know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-02 16:33:32
subject: <b>Keep in Mind....</b>
body:
...that a key element to Ogier the Dane's story is that he was unjustly condemned to death by Charlemagne (result of evil advice of jealous and corrupt advisors who framed Ogier for something).  The manner of the death penalty was that Ogier was only to be fed something like a half a loaf of bread and part of a cup of water (or so).  As he was an enormous person, it was expected he would die from this, but the abbotts of the abbey where he was hiding made the loaves enormous (so half would be able to feed him), and the flagon from which he drank was also huge.<br /><br />In a moment of dire need, on the brink of defeat, the loyal advisors revealed to a remorseful Charlemagne that Ogier was still alive, and the reunion was enacted.<br /><br />So...your theory is good, but there are some crucial (commonly held) aspects missing (for instance, one reason he was easily framed was because he was good friends with a Saracen hero).


created: 2002-06-02 23:50:18
subject: <b>Does RJ have ANY original characters</b>
body:
Or is he a complete ripoff?<br /><br />&quot;To steal from one is plagarism.<br />To steal form many is research.&quot;<br />by Some Guys


created: 2002-06-03 09:59:50
subject: <b>Mythic Structures</b>
body:
Rip Off of what?  A study of mythic structures (including religion) shows incredible parallels across the world, across history.  Once you start taking things back far enough, all stories start reducing down to a few core elements.  <br /><br />Is anybody original?  Lucas? Tolkien? Eddings? Card? that's just in the genre we're in.  I think it's pretty harsh to accuse him of that based on mere speculation.  I've seen comparisons that range from the Norse Gods, Hindu mythology, Christian mythos, African stories -- even a South American folk tale, if I remember correctly. <br /><br />Either Jordan's amazingly well read, or we are. :-)<br /><br />As for the pertinent subject, my post was partly to present that there are some conflicting (or at least different) views of the legend mentioned.  In fact, I confess that the spin originally posted was pretty different from the versions I've most commonly seen.  <br /><br />If you look, the only real similarities is that both are taller than almost all men (many knights of legend were huge -- Lancelot was said to be as big as six feet tall! This, of course, partially helps explain their great strength), Ogier the Dane's name is the same as the race of which Loial is a member (of course, Ogier could also equal Ogre, which has always seemed a bit more likely...), and they're both noble at heart (most heroes in any story are).<br /><br />I really don't see Loial slaying Rand's nepehew.  Loial is noted for using an axe, not a Great (as in, legendary) Sword.  Loial has always been a friend rather than a subordinate to Rand.  <br /><br />Beyond the three points, which are pretty common or easily explainable, there's really sort of nothing that indicates any other relation.  <br /><br />...nor that warrants the harsh criticism.


created: 2002-06-03 11:06:11
subject: <b>Eh</b>
body:
Just because he uses parts of mythology for some characters, does not mean that every single character he writes about has to be taken and molded from a mythological figure. Just my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*insert creative sig here*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 11:24:03
subject: <b>Correct</b>
body:
...but myths are prototypes for other characters, who are prototypes for others, who are...you get the idea.  You actually help make my point.<br /><br />I'm willing to bet that anybody who frequents this page couldn't make up a story character that could not be tied to some sort of myth, legend, or even any other story.


created: 2002-06-03 23:51:32
subject: <b>myth</b>
body:
There a very few truly original stories.  even genesis has basis in the stories of gilgamesh and earlier legends.  I like the idea ogier as chivalrous knight.  but i am not convinced he is a paladin.  A paladin is not a reluctant warrior as our ogier friend is.  A paladin fights like a priest or minister prays, it is his calling.  His calling may cause regret for the sin of the one he has dispatched and sorrow for the evil done by the sinner, but there is no reluctance to use force.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 19:33:59
subject: <b>Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111</b>
body:
Vashti<br /><br />I can't believe you just put Lucas in the same sentance as Tolkien and Card without emphasing that Lucas is an idiot and a thief.<br /><br />Yechhh<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 09:44:47
subject: <b>*chuckle*</b>
body:
That's sorta the point (well, the 'idiot' part was a bit harsh).  I was just using major, pertinent players in the sci-fi/fantasy genre. Regardless of your opinion of Lucas, he does qualify as that.


created: 2002-06-05 17:29:25
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
I agree, with Loial needing to go to TV. He has to close ALL the Waygates. If Black Sisters in TV cannot Travel - excepting Ailviarin - they'll still be using the Waygate as Liandrin once did.<br />An Asha'man in the Tower at the time of the seige of TV could have implications.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 11:25:36
subject: <b>Will he?</b>
body:
I don't think Loial will close the Tar Valon waygate until the Tower war is over and the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai are reconciled. The Asha'man with him probably won't be willing to go there.<br /><br />Makes for an interesting scene. The survivors from a Fist of Trollocs, say one Myrddraal and three Trollocs, finally stumble across the one waygate that is still open. &quot;Gate open, we go,&quot; says one and they step out into the middle of Tar Valon and a group of Aes Sedai walking through the grove.<br /><br />Or the remainder of the Black flee, entering the waygate because they have protection from the evil things inside. And the last gate gets sealed behind them. Oops, DEUS EX MACHINA (he won't do that, will he?)<br /><br />Vashti, I accept your point. It's just that I know too many people who think that Lucas is an original, spectacular and brilliant writer. He is a brilliant producer, but not a writer or director.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 18:50:51
subject: <b>going out on a limb</b>
body:
i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that while i really like this theory, to me it might make more sense for it to represent all ogiers instead of just loial.  the ogier used to be awesome warriors, although it seems like for the most part, on rand's side of the sea, the ogier have given up fighting for the most part.  in seanchan, the ogier are still great fighters, but i get the feeling that they're no longer chivalrous/noble.  it makes sense (at least to me, right now) that the two groups would hook up (maybe somehow through Loial closing the waygates?) and the randland ogier would teach the seanchan to be noble, and the seanchan ogier would teach the randland that it's ok to fight--even noble.<br />i see the crown that makes ogier the dane forget for both groups of ogier as the belief that they are special/unique.  On one side, they got so caught up in their nobility, that they forgot to fight.  on the other side, they got so caught up in fighting that they forgot to be noble.  and the knocking off of the crown is when they discover (or maybe it just clicks in their heads finally or something) that they aren't special/unique.  and just like when the crown is knocked off the dane's head, he remembers his former glory, when the ogier realize that they aren't unique, they combine knowledges and return to their former glory.  <br />i'm sorry if this is really stupid.  i'm tired right now because i had a really early class.  so i'm apologizing in advance.  sorry.


created: 2002-09-25 22:43:21
subject: <b>Ogier = Ents</b>
body:
Well, this is not so much for Loial in particular as Ogier in general, but the number of similarities between Tolkien's &quot;Ents&quot; and the Ogier are quite compelling.<br /><br />For instance, the Ents consider being hasty and angry as pretty much the same thing.  So do the Ogier.<br /><br />Ents are hard to anger, but when they are angered, very few can stand in their way, as are Ogier.  <br /><br />They love trees above almost all else, and (I'll admit, it's been a couple of years since I read LOTR, so I might have this wrong) I seem to recall them having their own songs that they sing to the trees.<br /><br />Ents are the keepers of the Forests.  Ogier are the tenders of the Groves.  <br /><br />Etc, etc...  Maybe this was so blatantly obvious that nobody felt like saying it, or maybe you all think I'm nuts.  I'm not; it's the rest of the world that's insane and out to get me.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Pianoman<br /><br />P.S. As to where Tolkien got the Ents, that's another matter entirely.


created: 2003-04-08 15:55:20
subject: <b>lucas a theif???</b>
body:
Oh come on lucas is no more a theif than any other sci-fi writers.  If you read any of his articles about his work you would see that the point was to repeat the hero myth/epic (something that was, and to some extent still is missing in our self indulgent/self centered society)which he did wonderfully, and in case you forget he also started the sci-fi epic movie phenomanon before lucas no movies of this type were created, now they are every where you look (star trek, babalyon five, etc all owe an incredible debt of gratitude to lucas) <br /><br />Now for the theory don't know enough to say if it's true or not it is interesting however the Ent connection has always seemed stronger to me.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-03 17:09:47
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I'm the first! Haha! Anywayas, I think it can' be Galad because he's not the type to run away- he'd think it his duty to stay- and also, like the admin said, he's not the type to ever be broken. AND he's an important enough character for RJ to make a big deal about. Nice idea though.


created: 2002-06-03 17:56:57
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
The theory does seem to make sense until you really think about who Galad is. It seems quite doubtful that Galad could be captured. If you recollect he is the best swordsman the world has seen to date (with few possible exceptions like Lan). How could the Shaido possibly capture him? The aiel would most likely shoot him full of arrows and kill him rather than attempt to subdue after they realize he is surrounded by about fifty dead aiel. Trying to capture an unwilling Galad is not possible. The only possible way would be channeling and I doubt that would occur as it violates ji'e'toh (yes yes I know the Shaido abandonded that principle at dumais wells but that was an exception so shush). Further more, trying to escape may seem cowardly to Galad if he cannot bring out all of the other prisoners with him. On a final note, GALAD WOULD NEVER CRY! He is too honorable and would die first.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 20:50:21
subject: <b>Not a chance!</b>
body:
Galad would have died by the sword, he wold not allow himself to be prisoner of the Aiel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Drooling Lunatic<br />Socrates Reborn  <br />Protector of Goats<br />He who must not be named <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 21:56:32
subject: <b>Umm...no.</b>
body:
Nice buildup in your theory, but I doubt Galad's been captured by the Shaido.  If he had been captured and was weeping and crying, that would make him a broken man - not the arrogant and condescending person he is.  I doubt Berelain would look at him twice if he was a prisoner and had lost all hope.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-03 22:33:48
subject: <b>Not a chance...</b>
body:
As has already been said:<br /><br />-Galad won't give in, or break<br />-Why would the Shaido go through the effort of capturing him, he'd likely have killed tons of them.  Remember, the guy is nasty with a sword - even the Aiel would have a bit of trouble with him.  It is much more likely that he would have been killed in any encounter, as he wouldn't have stopped fighting until all those threatening him were dead.<br />-Similar to the last thought - if he'd been captured and actually subdued, he wouldn't have run.  He probably would have gone through and killed those Shaido he could in a righteous rage.<br />-I'm far from convinced that he is Berelain's man in white - too coincidental so far, there isn't anything more than Min's vision, which is pretty vague.  How many other people could potentially be wearing white at some point?  Just because it says a man in white, that doesn't mean he will be wearing white at the moment she falls for him.  Maybe Faile will die and she'll finally get Perrin when he's made gai'shan...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-03 22:56:30
subject: <b>Tallanvor meets Galad</b>
body:
Tallanvor ends up 35 miles behind Perrin when the 'Travelling' 40 miles south-east begins.<br /><br />I think there is a purpose in this and this is to bring Galad (and 2,000 whitecloaks) into the Morgase (and perhaps Berelain) storyline.<br /><br />As for the whitecloaks who tried 9 times to escape? Could be nobody or perhaps one of them who hates Perrin.<br />


created: 2002-06-04 00:05:45
subject: <b>why not Child Byar....</b>
body:
How ironic would it be if Perrin ended up rescuing him?<br /><br />P.S.  it's not Galad.  For all the reasons already mentioned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 03:32:58
subject:
<b>Thanks, Everyone <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
... for finding the flaws in my post.<br /><br />I know not many agree with me, Galad being the warrior he is and all that, but I don't see Galad dying vainly in a fight he knows he can't win.   I don't think he'd 'die by the sword' so much as play along and try to escape.  Galad knows fighting, better than anyone else alive (except maybe Mat). He knows when a fight is hopeless.  He's also a man of high honor, and it's universally agreed that the Shaido have no honor. I don't think he'd be honor bound to accept his captivity, any more than he'd needlessly fight and die.  He's as much honor bound to protect House Trakkand as Gawyn is.  I think Galad is smart enough not to waste himself uselessly. He knows his worth and he's studied battle enough to know that if your enemy has you grossly outnumbered, you bide your time til you can find a weakness and make use of it... like trying to escape.<br />I'm not saying 'you guys are wrong, it's gotta be Galad'. I *know* it's more than possible I'm wrong.  I probably am. But something keeps telling me, why bother mentioning the Whitecloak at all, if more wasn't going to develop from it later?  RJ doesn't just mention things like that for no reason.  And what better way to (finally!) tie Galad back into the story line than by him being the one?  Conveniently placed to (if nothing else &amp; leaving any theories on Berelain out of it) see Morgase again. He has to have heard the rumors about her death, and be just as furious with Rand as Gawyn is.  <br />There's the issue of the crying &amp; pleading thing.  I'll concede that Galad is definitely one of the last people to do that sort of thing.  Normally.  Is Galad any harder than the Aiel?  Aiel are hard to begin with, but Shaido are needlessly cruel on top of it. I'm not so much saying that Galad's spirit is broken, but everyone has their limits - physically.  To have tried to escape nine times seems (to me at least) to be beyond the limit of any Wetlander except someone as tough as Galad in the first place.<br />As far as who Tallanvor might run into: why not Gawyn?  He was tracking Galina, last I remember.  Which means he's likely not too far behind the Shaido with the Younglings. <br />Hey, it could happen. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  *sigh*  I can't wait til Nov 12.  <br /><br />Ironically, &quot;This page taken gai'shain in 0.0166 seconds.&quot;  I swear Hawkwing knows the topic of my posts before I do.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 08:06:30
subject: <b>Mind candy...</b>
body:
Galad is a very talanted fighter, but there are a few that can match his skill or even excede it. Lan, Gawyn and a few more. <br />Anyway... back to the subject; Galad would not allow himself to be captured, he is a man of hoinor and TOTAL belief in himself, he would fight... and probably win. Even if there would be many aiels attacking him. (remember the chapter when he helped the girls flee from a city controlled by the prophet, he got in a fight with a s*itload of &quot;street thugs&quot; he was unharmed when the fight was over. The borderland veterans were injured and about 20 feet behind him)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Drooling Lunatic<br />Socrates Reborn  <br />Protector of Goats<br />He who must not be named <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 09:27:42
subject: <b>Grrr...</b>
body:
I was gonna let this go, until this comment (and 1-2 follow-up ones):<br /><br />&quot;Galad knows fighting, better than anyone else alive (except maybe Mat).&quot;<br /><br />Now, I can understand why some people who jump to conclusions will consider Gawyn the best SWORDSMAN alive, but why on earth does anyone even remotely consider him the best FIGHTER alive???<br /><br />Rand, with his intense training in Aiel weapon-less fighting, could smack him around a compound until he blubbered. In fact, most Aiel could.  I'm willing to bet (like the poster) that Mat would as well. <br /><br />Some people hold up Galad as the greatest swordsman in the world because he was Warder-trained (and admittedly better than most warders).  If you recall, While Rand was shielded (something of a distraction, eh?), he slew three ARMED Warders with his bare hands. <br /><br />Galad is terrifically skilled; of that there is no doubt.  But until he has 2-3 blademasters under his belt, plus beaten a few more dread enemies (like, say...an ancient power seeping with evil that is only a few steps below the Dark One), and until he demonstrates expertise in any other sort of fighting....<br /><br />CAN WE PLEASE STOP CALLING HIM THE BEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD????<br /><br />So far, Galad's only notable fight was against a half-dead boy with a stick -- and he had another blademaster (or one close to it) to help!<br /><br />Make him get that title the old-fashioned way -- make him earn it. Sheeeeeeesh!


created: 2002-06-04 10:12:59
subject: <b>Its not Galad</b>
body:
The reasons have already been mentioned above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*insert creative sig here*</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 11:02:37
subject: <b>What about Galina?</b>
body:
Not saying you are wrong or right, just more of a concern about her.  It sounds like she saw the whitecloak at least once when he was brought back, especially the last time.  Galina, having been in the tower until sent in the embassy to Rand most likely would have seen Galad training there at least once.  I know she was Black/Red but he is an important person in his own right (son of a queen and one of the quickest learners in training).  Of course Galina doesn't recognize Morgase, who trained in the tower, so maybe she is just oblivious to things going on around her.


created: 2002-06-04 12:15:32
subject: <b>A possibility</b>
body:
Alright, so a possible scenario . . . . .<br /><br />The Shaido stumble on a group of Whitecloaks, led by Galad.  The Whitecloaks fight valiantly, blah, blah, blah.  During the melee, Sevanna spies Galad.  Sevanna's a horny little wench, and Galad is hot.  Sevanna tells her &quot;Aes-Sedai-on-a-leash&quot; to wrap him up with a few tidy flows of air, and here we are . . . .<br /><br />Now with Galad's excessive sense of duty, he attempts to escape 9 times before being broken.  With Sevanna wanting to keep him alive as a trophy gai'shain, it would explain a lot.<br /><br />And perhaps the process of being broken will allow him to rebuild himself into a better person (hopefully with a little more compassion).  Finding out that his mother is still alive could very well jump-start the process, and finding out that he's the Dragon Reborn's half-brother is certain to shake him up a little bit.  I think Galad's in for a major reevaluation of the world, and being broken by the Shaido would fit in well with that.<br /><br />There's a definite theme throughout the series that hard does not equal strong, and it's fairly obvious that Hard doesn't cut it against the shadow (Aridhol/Shadar Logoth being the historic example).  This theme is most obvious in Rand, but is certainly present in others.  The characters that realize this are doing well (Nynaeve, Lan, Egwene, Elayne), and those who do not are struggling with themselves (Rand, all the Aiel who suffered the 'bleakness', Gawyn, Elaida, and Galad).<br /><br />Just a few thoughts.


created: 2002-06-04 12:18:30
subject: <b>Suppose for a minute</b>
body:
that it is Galad. The person HAS tried to escape 9 times, so I don't think I'd consider him &quot;broken&quot; even if he does cry. I can only imagine his condition after all the torturing he will have been put through, in addition to living under the conditions the Shaido would enforce on their Gai'shain. He would hardly be the perfect speciman anymore.<br /><br />Of course, there is no evidence that it is him. I do think that a skilled fighter would surrender under the right circumstances. But I also think the Aiel would put a few arrows through him before he decided fighting was hopeless ans gave up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 12:55:52
subject: <b>Maybe maybe not</b>
body:
OK if it were Galad wouldn't the right thing to do be serving the Shaido. I mean he was captured so wouldn't it be right to his mind to do what was required? Think about it he always does what is right no matter who it hurts even himself if he was captured and required to serve he might obey. But on the other hand he might see what the Shaido are doing is wrong and then he would try to escape. I think we need to learn more about him before we can predict anything. Good theory though I hadn't thought of that.


created: 2002-06-04 13:16:06
subject: <b>Interestink</b>
body:
I like the idea that it could be Byar, that would be an interesting scene to say the least, but in truth, it could be any number of muleheaded stubborn men <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />. After all, as mentioned above, whitecloaks arent just any soldier, they do rather be hardcore. And remember that Isendre was not really that tough she was just pretty and a schemer, not much physical strength or endurance<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scorp <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 13:50:25
subject: <b>Whitecloaks</b>
body:
I think a lot of people are being too willing to assume Whitecloaks are nothing but scum.  Granted, given many that we are used to seeing, that's the case.  Their politics make them the natural enemy of those roughly considered to be the heroes.<br /><br />But...White Cloaks typically ARE brave (including Byar). They truly believe what they are doing is the right thing, a 'good' thing (most of them).  And given their background and other history, there's some a little compelling in it.<br /><br />Hey...look at Artur Paendrag.  He could be considered the first White Cloak.  And he's remembered as a hero.<br /><br />The White Cloak in the camp could be just a rank and file member, but who was brave enough to try to escape, despite knowing the punishment he'd get.  If anything, I'd speculate that the Shaido Aiel may develop a certain grudging respect (not that it would change their reaction one bit). <br /><br />It doesn't have to be anyone in particular.  Maybe it's just a brave White Cloak.


created: 2002-06-04 14:18:27
subject: <b>Galad's loyalties.</b>
body:
The right thing to do in Galad's mind would NOT be to stay captured &amp; be a gai'shain.  That makes no sense.  Consider his loyalties:<br /><br />1)Family<br />2)Whitecloaks<br />3)Andor<br /><br />Obviously there's some conflict there, but the key thing is that none of those three include ji'eh'toh.  And certainly not the corrupted version of ji'eh'toh that the Shaido seem to be following.<br /><br />He can hardly help his family by being a captive of the &quot;evil Aiel&quot;.  And consider his Whitecloak point of view:  channelling = darkfriend.  The Wise Ones channel . . . .  There is no way he would feel &quot;obligated&quot; to remain a captive of a bunch of black-veiled Aiel channelers.<br /><br />Mind you, I haven't made up my mind on whether it's Galad or not.  But I haven't heard any good reasons why it wouldn't be him.


created: 2002-06-04 18:09:11
subject: <b>This certainly would make for</b>
body:
some good plotlines when Perrin, Morgase and the rest catch the Shaido. I've always liked Berelain-Galad as fulfillment of the 'man in white' vision. Gai'shain white is just as good as the Whitecloak. Plus, Galad would be a good candidate for slicing up Aram............<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 18:43:34
subject: <b>This response is kind of long-winded. Just a warning, sorry.</b>
body:
I agree with Daemione in that nothing voiced to this point can truely exclude Galad as the Shaido hostage.  I don't think that there is enough information at this point to make any realiable guess as to who is being held, though I would be very surprized if we haven't at least met him before.  <br /><br />With regards to some of the reasons stated above as to why it can't be Galad, I disagree.  <br /><br />1.  &quot;Galad would do the honorable thing and remain a 		   prisoner without trying to put up a fight.&quot;<br /><br />This makes no sense what-so-ever for several reasons.  First of all, apparently several people seem to think that Galad was raised in the Aiel Waste.  Why else would he feel any obligation at all to remain &quot;gaishan&quot;?  If he were se upon by robbers would he just hand over his posessions because that is what the robbers would expect of him or because in the eyes of the robbers that is what he should do?  Of course not!  The culture in which Galad grew up appears to be much more similar to our modern day standards and way of thinking than does the Aiel culture.  Few organizations in today's culture (especially militant groups) would teach that one should willingly submit and be subservient to the enemy if captured.  I really doubt that Galad was either taught that way or would come up with that idea himself no matter what his captors told him or did to him.<br /><br />Now suppose for just a moment that for some strange reason Galad did feel compelled to remain a slave out of duty, as stated by Daemione, his obligation to his family and country would surely far outweight any sense of duty to remain with the Shaido.<br /><br />In short, Galad (and probably most any other white-cloak) would most definately try to escape the Shaido.<br /><br />2.  &quot;Galad would not have let himself be captured by the Shaido, he would have died fighting.&quot;<br /><br />I agree that Galad would fight to remain free as long as he saw even a small chance of success.  However, as agrivating as Galad can be some times, we have to give him a little credit and assume he must be a least somewhat intelligent. I think that he would recognize that he would be of no aid to anyone dead.  At this point in the story he probably thinks Rand killed Morgase and that Elayne and Egwene are both in the evil grasp of the Aes Sedai or worse.  He would certainly feel an obligation to do everything in his power to &quot;right&quot; those &quot;wrongs,&quot; even if it meant subjecting himself to the Shaido for a time.  Besides, we know Galad isn't exactly humble.  Surely if he were forced to surrender to the shaido for some reason he would still be confident that he would be able to escape.<br /><br />3.  &quot;Galad wouldn't cry no matter what they did to him.&quot;<br /><br />Galad is still flesh and blood.  Granted that he would not want to show any weakness, but he isn't a god or anything.  At this point in the books, Rand is probably one of the hardest, coldest characters in the book, yet we saw how close even he was to tears after his ordeal in the chest and the whippings.  He did break down in sobs when he thought nobody could hear.  If Rand can be brought to tears by the Aes Sedai torture, then certainly Galad could be brought to tears by Aiel torture (remember that even Galina &lt;not only Aes Sedai, but Black Ajah&gt; is astounded by the severity of the measures used by the Shaido).<br /><br />Well, sorry if I went on a little long, but I don't think that some of you are giving this theory enough credit or thought or something.  As I said, I don't think we can say for sure that the Whitecloak is Galad, but I think the possibility is being rejected on some pretty flimsy grounds.  Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth (as if you needed an invitation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


