# w_comment

created: 2001-11-15 17:04:58
subject: <b>what i was trying to say,TIAB, is:</b>
body:
That because there are a lot of Similarity between rand and Jesus, (the Messiah thing, the wounds in the hands, the all fisher king myth, and co) than one of those similarity was that ran need to die in order to save the world. I didn't mean the DO will win, but that he will not lose, because every time the human race and the dragon need to fight him in orator for the wheel to keep moving<br />Maybe the fact that dragon soul keep reaping (so far we know only about LLT and rand) represent the part that Jesus came back to life.<br />BTW what encyclopedia? Where did he say it?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 22:05:03
subject: <b>LTT's death</b>
body:
It wasn't just a huge bolt of lightning, on a huge scale?<br /><br />Okay, before everyone starts laughing at me for thinking lightning can make mountains... couldn't someone with a force such as the Power at their use create a lightning bolt large enough to make vibrations through the Earth? (We just did this in Astro., so I'm not sure how accurate I'm being...) But if you think of the lightning bolt as being a giant clump of potential energy, LTT hitting himself with it would obliterate him, and if the bolt had enough energy to continue into the ground, there could be seismic movement, right? Like an earthquake. Physics people? Help?<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-11-15 23:18:53
subject: <b>LTT was definatly taveren</b>
body:
I think it is pretty obvious that LTT was a taveren. there is specififc metion from Demandred that LTT was not as good a general as he himself was, but contionously managed to &quot;scrape up luck&quot;.  this speaks very significantly about a connection to LTT and Rand, who also just manages to get lucky in profound and somtimes odd ways...<br />the fall of the stone comes to mind. what were Rands chances if he showed up all by himself? not very good. but who happens by? moirainne, lan, mat, thom, the Aiel, the monster under the bed and just about everyone else!! pretty lucky if you ask me.<br />or, how about when rand went to the rebel camp? just like that 2 ppl who are against him show up, talk to him, begin falling in with him, the fog comes, destroys the rebel army fain's dagger cuts right across the &quot;old wound&quot; which many believe will counter-act each other and therby save his life...pretty lucky again<br />Yes, if LTT was considered someone who can make luck to help him win, then he was obviously Taveren.


created: 2001-11-15 23:56:47
subject: <b>Demandred's POV</b>
body:
Telamon's comment is true...IF you accept the version of one who betrayed his oaths and loyalties because he was consumed by jealousy.<br /><br />Since that's the only evidence you state, then it's far from 'obvious'. <br /><br />Demandred was a louse. He turned to evil because he was so insanely consumed with envy for LTT that he just couldn't stand it anymore.  Jealous people make rationalizations. What I'm saying doesn't DISprove that LTT's advantage over Demandred was being ta'veren...<br /><br />...but it sure bursts the bubble of it being 'obvious proof'.<br /><br />As the saying goes, 'consider the source'.


created: 2001-11-16 04:06:39
subject: <b>About</b>
body:
the Encyclopedia, I can't remember where or when eh said it, it was in some chat a while ago. All he basically said was he wanted to do an encyclopedia once he'd finished the series before he moves onto a new series.<br /><br />In TEOTW, Loial says that Rand is ta'veren, Hawkwing was ta'veren and he says he says something like &quot;I assume LTT was too&quot;. Now that might not be an exact quote, but the point is, even Loial didn't actually know! Think how much reading he must have done and with LTT being such a major name from history, he's bound to have read loads about him. Yet he's never read that LTT was ta'veren. Also, due to Ogiers' long lifespans, they are much more likely to have some knowledge of this than humans, in the same way the Trolloc Wars don't seem so long ago to Loial.


created: 2001-11-16 18:51:34
subject: <b>Comment #22...</b>
body:
Hey, nice lil' theory...I've already forgotten what it was about since I've read the 48,000,000 blackboard comments!  ahaha...ANYWAY<br /><br />I don't think there is proof either way that LTT was ta'veren, however, I think that he probably was.  That's based soley on Demandred, Loial, and other Forsakens' comments.  That, speculation and logic.  Either way.<br /><br />I think everyone pretty much said what needed to be said about balefire.  <br /><br />An encyclopedia?  Wow!  I can't wait!  <br /><br />oh, and the Ta'veren being a limited time thing...The Wheel of Time RPG states that you can be Ta'veren for 2 days or 2 years.  Or something to that extent, I'm paraphrasing, of course.  I'm pretty sure Jordan wouldn't let something like that get by, so I'm saying that Ta'veren can just 'go away.'  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-18 20:57:14
subject: <b>Interesting, very interesting</b>
body:
I'm of the opinion that LTT pretty much had to be ta'veren. Think about it. We know the AoL stories of most of the Forsaken, and they were all powerful, significant people before they went bad.  Thirteen of 'em. Now, how many GOOD GUYS do we know from the AoL?  Tha's right, chilluns, 'sactly one. The Dragon himself.<br />Now I admit that a lot got lost in the Breaking, but even so, the people in Rand's time know the names of the thirteen Forsaken, but never once do we hear of LTT's sidekicks.  And from the stories about Demandred and Sammael, it sounds like LTT got stabbed in the back, over and over and over again, by one of his allies selling out to the Shadow. <br />Considering that LTT had to learn fighting and generalship skills from scratch, and kept getting betrayed (including the time where the female Aes Sedai refused to go with him to Shayol Ghul -- that was a betrayal of sorts), AND the fact that the DO was a good deal freer to act then than he was now (after all, no seals) then LTT pretty much HAD to be ta'veren or he'd never have pulled it off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 23:19:33
subject: <b>Taim and Rand</b>
body:
If you think about it Taim is a lot like Demandred. He's always been just a bit under Rand. So Demandred being a bit behind Lews doesn't hold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 15:36:05
subject: <b>Women at the Bore</b>
body:
The comment a few notes earlier made me think of this.  Maybe that's why LTT's success wasn't complete.  And maybe it's one reason why Rand will finish the job (whatever it is).  <br /><br />As ta'veren, he draws to him those whom he needs...which includes two -very- powerful channelers for wives, and even a childhood sweetheart who is the Amyrlin Seat and quite powerful on her own. <br /><br />Toss in a few others (Alise, Nynaeve, etc.), and you have enough women to extend links of 13 for quite a bit....<br /><br />Good point, whomever made it.


created: 2001-12-03 10:58:41
subject: <b>Ta'veran</b>
body:
I think that LTT and Demandred were both Ta'veran.  I think that Demandred was to LTT, what Mat and Perrin are to Rand. He just turned to the shadow.  I think that the Ta'veran only comes into play for a short while and the gleam that some people can see disappears after a while.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 13:04:49
subject: <b>Ta'veren and the Horn of Valere</b>
body:
I think that LTT was Ta'veren. I think that being Ta'veren is part of being one of the heroes of the horn. If you notice in TGH Artur Hawkwing says something to the effect of &quot;I know you Lews Therin, even if you don't know yourself.&quot; It would make sense that the people who were always famous (Birgette, Gaidial Cain, Artur Hawkwing, etc.)would be focus points on the pattern. Oh well I bet I am getting flamed for this one so Flame On<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Flame<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">taintedman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> king of my own little universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> flamer of stupid posts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 14:12:18
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
First of all its spelled ta'veren not ta'veran. Females NEVER have and NEVER will be able to channel Saidin since its restricted more or less to males. Male channelers have the ability to link as was demonstrated in Winters Heart (notice no abbreviations!!!!!!) when Rand linked with Nyneave quite easily when they were using the Choeden Kal. Rand IS ta'veren and IS the Dragon Reborn!!! He has fulfilled too many prophecies to not be the Dragon besides was not Lews Therin the Dragon and is he not currently residing in Rand's head? He has the herons branded on his palms, the dragons on his arms, Callandor, and the foretelling by Gitara. So unless you can back up Rand NOT being the Dragon Reborn shut the hell up!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2004-12-08 11:51:44
subject: <b>lews therin telamon is ta'veren</b>
body:
i have no proof to offer here, there is none. however we can still aply good old white ajah logic to the problem.<br /><br />the reason the women refused to do lews therin's plan was because they thought it was too risky. even in a circle it would have been an incredible feat to get the flows placed in such a way that the plan suceeded, without freeing the dark one because of a mistake. For lews therin to achieve this, without a circle, and with just a small army ( he could only bring those personaly loyal to him, not to the hall) was a feat so miraculous, so incredible that to pull it off he simply had to have been ta'veren (come on, even rand taking the stone with a couple of aiel pales in omparison to this!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 14:04:52
subject: <b>Tel'aran'RAND...</b>
body:
I just had a minor thought........<br />Rand is of the Aiel. They are his people, and the Aiel prophacy says that he will do away with a lot of them....<br />So I thought perhaps the Blood spilt&lt;sp?&gt; will be Rand's people ie the Aiel<br />Perhaps in a mass attempt at a rescue?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-16 14:28:39
subject: <b>The Heroes</b>
body:
I don't think they shed blood at Falme, but that doesn't mean they can't.  They were not fighting anyone nearly as powerful as the DO.  If Moggy can rip someone out, I'm pretty sure Shai'tan can make one bleed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 17:56:25
subject: <b>My thoughts on prophecy...</b>
body:
I have always been of the mind that Rand will die and be sent to Tel'aran'rhiod because Nynave was the one present when Moghedian ripped out Birgitte plus she's the healing guru. The fact that it is possible and we have learned so much about the knowlege one aquires while in the world of dreams leads me to think that this is a plaussible solution to dying and being reborn. <br /><br />However, I have always thought that Logain's laughing over a paper-mache Rand, plus the Rand-as-begger fortellings would take place after the last battle when Logain, who has a much more regal bearing, would take over as head channeler all the time knowing that Rand is alive and well in retirement. They may even converse sometimes on matters but Rand will be done with the world and will slip into anonymity. In the fortelling Logain is stepping onto the black square that Taim has at the black tower so this would lead me to believe he will be head of male channelers. who knows.


created: 2001-11-17 00:09:33
subject: <b>Dragon's Blood</b>
body:
As long as we're throwing out the &quot;Dragon's Blood&quot; theories...  Isn't Galad Rand's blood?  <br /><br />I don't really see this as a possibility, but hey if we're mentioning the Aiel, why not?<br /><br />I agree with the Logain and Rand the beggar after TG.  I also think it would be a pretty cheap out for Rand to be ripped out.<br /><br />Remember, Mat has already died and been reborn without having to go to any big extremes.<br /><br />Anyways, back to Dragon Warrior VII (my main character is named Mat).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-17 00:24:50
subject: <b>I have never liked these theories...</b>
body:
For some reason I have always tended towards the theory that Rand will be alive and well to fight the Last Battle. This makes sense with the blood on the rocks thing, as one of Min's viewings aroung Rand was black rocks wet with blood. This seems to mean that he will spill it, and therefore he has to be there in a corporeal sense. <br />But then again, I could be wrong.<br />(BTW, GEORGE W.????? WTH?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 15:26:31
subject: <b>Logain?!?</b>
body:
Why does everyone assume that logain is going to follow after rand?  Sure, he has a big following in the Black Tower, but Narishma is the one who'll follow after, and I can prove it.  <br />Prophecy:&quot;into the heart he thrusts the blade, ito the heart to hold their hearts, who pulls it out shall follow after, what hand can hold that dreadful blade.&quot;<br /><br />Rand thrust callandor into the heart of the stone, and NARISHMA pulled it out on rand's orders.  Most people will now be saying: but logain has 2 bonded sisters, and can use it safely.  Well here's some news for ya...Narishma has already used it safely with 2 linked sisters.  I believe that logain will be Narishma's sub-ordinate.  Remember...before anyone had any clue that logain would ever be able to channel again, R.J. had already started telling us about Narishma, and how immensely powerful he would be.  So HA!  <br /><br />Now to wait for people to point out the countless flaws that i was blind to.  Hurray!<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 20:33:23
subject: <b>I think you missed the point...</b>
body:
I dont' think I ever said Logain would wield callandor.  I happen to believe that it will be Narishma who'll continue to wield that.  However, Logain WILL attain glory few can even dream of, according to Min, who we know is never wrong.  Just thought I'd clear that up for you.<br /><br />and that's jsut rude...&quot;Ha!&quot;  <br /><br />Welp, see ya later.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-18 21:02:37
subject: <b>On the Blood of the Dragon . . .</b>
body:
I think that somewhere in book four or five one of the Aiel mentions that they will be almost destroyed at Shayol Ghul and they will be the &quot;blood of the Dragon,&quot; but I'm not sure on this, and I'm not willing to go wading through . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 08:45:17
subject: <b>Rand dying</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that Rand WILL die before the last battle, but I have always believed that Nynaeve will heal him. There has been hints that Nynaeve will not settle until she heals a corpse dead for three days... just a thought though... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(By the way, I'm a newbie here. Hello everybody!)


created: 2001-11-24 20:47:07
subject: <b>What is the problem?</b>
body:
I do not see any imposabilities with this theory, only one minor change.  Personally, since the DO is a god for all intents and purposes, I do not believe that he can possably be harmed by any living porson.  However, as it is stated above and other theories and in the books, the heroes are not living people (with one notable exception).  Rand will valiantly go to fight the last battle, get killed off (now thats what I call a dramatic chapter ending!), so there is the whole bolld on the rocks thing solved.  Then things will go basicly as in the above theory with Mat blowing the horn and a now invincible Rand comming back with the rest on the heroes.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 23:33:08
subject: <b>telvin, telvin, telvin...</b>
body:
the do is on nowhere NEAR the level of a god (oir even teh creator).  he considers the dragon his equal, not a pawn that his equal is using.  we know this because when talking to demandred he referred to the dragon as his &quot;age old enemy,&quot; and not the pawn of his &quot;age old enemy.&quot;  Rand has untapped potential, but once tapped it can equal the do.  Btw...here's a thought: since the do is on our plane of realit to some extent, and since he is weak as hell compared to the creator, maybe the do is the pawn of a greater  force.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 03:51:43
subject: <b>That would be just great...</b>
body:
The DO is really a pawn of a greater force...so when the last battle's over, another DO is raised up, or his daddy shows up and stirs the whole anthill again.  Hope everyone's comfortable--we're in for a(n even) long(er) ride.  <br /><br />But then again that could explain &quot;the last battle done but the world not done with battle.&quot;  See ya on the other side of Book 32. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Papa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Founder of the Wotmania Writers' Guild <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to no one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 19:11:08
subject: <b>This couldn't happen</b>
body:
Why couldn't this happen? Because Rand is the leader of the dead heroes. Even though mat blew the horn Rand led them to battle. And remember the heroes' battle depended on how Rand was doing fighting Baalzamon. I think the heroes have to have this connection to life to actually fight. So if Rand is dead, no dragon reborn can be the symbol for the heroes. Of course you say he could do it as a hero. But I don't think so. I think he would be part of the heros and need the connection to a real battle to win.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WoTmen<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />need freedom to roll the dice!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />Female rulers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />need to be spammed!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-03 17:24:02
subject: <b>Probalby not....</b>
body:
Since Rand is Lews Therin reborn, wouldn't he be in Tel'aran'rahoid as Lews Therin rather then Rand al'Thor?


created: 2003-09-16 15:21:34
subject: <b>Good Theory In Theory</b>
body:
The theory about Rand coming back when the horn of valere is blown is a good theory, however that brings up a question? If and when Rand dies, Perrin and Mat will surely have the same fate, because the three Tavaren are tied together, thats why the DO doesn't care which one of the three dies.  All the dark one has to do is kill one of the three and all three fail.


created: 2001-11-17 14:08:47
subject: <b>Cadsuane and other things</b>
body:
I really like this theory. I don't know if I agree with all of it, but I like the ideas it opens up.<br /><br />Commentary about Cadsuane saying that 'hearing voices' is a symptom of the madness...<br /><br />We know, that since the taint, all male channelers go mad.  Maybe what they really are, are False Dragons going mad.  However, we DO know that male Forsaken don't go mad, because of their ties to the Dark One. *coughcoughTaimcough*<br /><br />Now, hearing voices could well be hearing Lews Therin talking, muttering, etc.  Maybe THAT is what CAUSES people to go mad?  After all, we would think someone who hears voices is mad in our world because we know that can't happen. But...well, in Westland, it can.  It can, and will, happen for the Dragon Reborn.  Perhaps it's Rand coming to some sort of accomodation with LTT that will help him prevent the madness.  As for how he acts...well, not like he's not under a little pressure or nuthin'. <br /><br />So maybe Cadsuane saying that hearing voices is a symptom is correct, but looking at it the wrong way. Maybe hearing voices is part of the cause, not side-effect.  Guaire wasn't mentioned as going mad, nor was Logain...Maybe those who try to be reborn Dragons stave it off for awhile, because they're trying to fill a thread in the Wheel. <br /><br />Anyway, nice thought-provoking theory, even if I disagree with some of it (haven't decided yet).<br /><br />Oh, lastly...have we ever heard of evil Ta'vern?  Maybe ta'veren are the Creator's response to the DO.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-17 15:30:42
subject: <b>How Bout Reincarnations of False Dragons</b>
body:
IN the series false dragons and false dragons kept being weaved out until Rand proclaimed himself<br />or was proclaimed. I'm sure that false dragons have purposes to, not to conquer but maybe <br />to be conquered.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-17 15:50:28
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I don't agree with this theory for many reasons, but the main one being that for me, another theory is so much more obvious.<br /><br />That is, of course, that the third man is the previous Dragon to LTT. Now I'm not going to go through the whole thing again (as I say this stuff so often, it just gets annoying), but the main idea is that one of the main ways the taint works is that it breaks down the barriers in the man's head between the current incarnation of the soul and the last. So the third voice is what LTT heard when he went mad and his barriers were broken down. This explains why Rand doesn't hear it. In other words, whenever the next Dragon comes along after Rand, if the taint effects him too, he'll hear Rand, Rand will still hear LTT, but this new Dragon won't. So Rand will be hearing two voices, the new Dragon only one.<br /><br />Just to point out, I don't actually believe LTT is a seperate person in Rand's head, but it takes too long to explain that everytime I write his name.


created: 2001-11-17 15:56:50
subject: <b>False Dragons...</b>
body:
While I do not agree that this will happen, I do agree that it is possible.  I like these theories, personally, they are more creative and more interesting.  <br /><br />     I'm gonna do some more research, and see what I can add to your theory.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-11-18 00:01:38
subject: <b>Wow, someone else thinks so...</b>
body:
I have taken this for granted, but never really thought of putting it into a theory...a couple of other points, are that GA was called the Second Dragon.  He was never called a false dragon, at least not that I recall.  I agree wholehaertedly, and hope we are proven right......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 02:41:25
subject: <b>Ishamael and Seanchan</b>
body:
You say that the Wheel arranged for Seanchan to be united. Actually that was Ishamael, acting for purposes of his own (to have a force waiting to disrupt everything nicely for Rand as the Seanchan are currently doing, and to deprive Hawkwing of an heir and cause the downfall of his empire.) He actually tells Rand this &quot;I whispered again, and the High King sent ships across the Aryth Ocean, sealing two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one king, and a doom yet to come.&quot; (The Eye of the World). O'course, maybe the Pattern was working <i>through</i> Ishamael, but I prefer the idea he did it to mess things up. So what is the Pattern's answer to the Seanchan problem?<br />Tuon and Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 05:54:35
subject: <b>Need?</b>
body:
One problem with GA being a &quot;real&quot; Dragon: Prophecy always said that the Dragon would be reborn in the hour of the world&#180;s greatest need <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />. Was there a need great enough for this at that time with all the seals still strong? I can&#180;t imagine. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 12:05:12
subject: <b>to llaydwhonn gaidin....</b>
body:
<br />The need was for Hawkwing.  If it wasnt for Hawkwing, Ishara would never have claimed Caemlyn, and established Andor and then the line would never have been established, etc...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 12:57:43
subject: <b>Ah...I've since thought about...</b>
body:
Ah, I've since thought some more about our little 'false' dragon and come to several conclusions, which I won't share right now.  However, to answer the question about the dragon won't be reborn until the hour of greatest need, here we go...<br /><br />The dragon was not reborn...LTT's soul was spun out again, but the dragon is not reborn until he correctly proclaims himself (which the pattern would not allow in GA's case).  Remember what happened to Mazrim Taim and the other false dragon when Rand raised the dragon banner?  Furthermore, most Randlanders will not recognize him as the dragon until he wields Callandor, as we've seen of our good friend Rand.  Therefore, even if The dragon's soul was spun out, it doesn't become the dragon reborn till the pattern says he can.<br /><br />In conclusion, I see that every argument against can be disproven with a little logic (I'm working on a theory that shows all of this).  I do not see, however, any evidence that proves Guaire as LTT.  I'd like to see that, personally.  <br /><br />Also, someone mentioned a while back they'd like to hear more about Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, and Davian.  Me, too!  Work 'em in Jordan!!<br /><br />BTW:  Westlands is not the name of Randland, only of the lands west of the spine of the world, according to the RPG book.  We still don't have a name for the entire world yet.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-18 13:48:59
subject: <b>The whole of that world...</b>
body:
should be called &quot;WoTland&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 21:23:18
subject: <b>Nice theory....But</b>
body:
I seem to recall Brigette talking to the girls about souls being spun out over &amp; over. She said that all souls come around again except for LTT, he was only going to come out again once.<br /><br />That appears to disprove that GA was the Dragon or that he is in Rands head.<br /><br />I believe that the third voice is actually the true spirit of the Dragon. Perhaps the sane section of LTT, but I believe this voice shall help guide Rand &amp; assist Cadsuane to make Rand feel once more.<br /><br />Thats my 2cents<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Read free or Die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-19 12:30:47
subject: <b>Hornsounder...</b>
body:
...your argument sounds perfectly logical except that Hawkwing never claimed to be a reincarnation of the Dragon...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 14:58:27
subject: <b>Nice thoughts, but are they new?</b>
body:
I seem to remember another theory being posted that Alamasan was another incarnation of the Rand/LTT soul. <br /><br />There is a certain beauty in its symetry.  In EotW, Ishy said that Rand would be used by the tower in the same way that Alamasan and the rest of the false dragons were used.  It would be quite ironic if these false dragons turned out to be different incarnations of Rand/LTT.  Especially since these men, who shook the foundations of the Earth, were probably being used not by the tower but by Ishy's real nemesis the Wheel of Time.<br /><br />Even more ironic, is the fact that Ishy thinks that he is the one who controls fate.  Yet, I have no doubt, that what Ishy thinks is his triumph, having the Seanchen Return for instance, was just him being pulled by the pattern through Hawkwing.  (Consider Dashiva; in the end Dashiva, through helping Damer Flynn served the pattern more than he served the DO.)  Ishy is a fool to want such a powerful army nearby.  He may control them for now, but for how long.  <br /><br />Ishy, as well, thinks that he is the one who plays both sides.  How ironic (and effective) it would be if it was the pattern who played all sides.  The heros of the horn are born to serve the pattern, not the other way around.  Having LTT/Rand born as a false dragon makes sense.  The pattern can have more flexibility to control the game that way.  It might even gives the pattern enough flexibility for it to decide under the right conditions to go ahead and make Alamasan a true dragon.  (Doubtful, but who knows.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 13:31:57
subject: <b>NO WAY</b>
body:
there is NO WAY that the true dragon was a false dragon before.  that is just plain crazy. it doesn't even make sense.  it's like saying that night is day.  i mean, being one precludes being the other.  and another thing, the dragon would be BORN in mankind's greatest hour of need.  not PROCLAIMED. to say that rand is only the dragon because he was proclaimed is simply ridiculous. rand is the dragon because he IS the dragon.  enough said.  i think robert jordan, speaking through rand, sums it up best: <br /><br />&quot;No, if the Dragons disappeared from his arms and the branded herons from his palms, he was still marked (as the Dragon).&quot;--Lord of Chaos, tradepaperback p. 268, 1st paragraph  <br /><br />nice theory, but no dice.


created: 2001-11-24 19:46:17
subject: <b>3rd Guy in a small cranium</b>
body:
just for the record, the colors and &quot;almost seeing a face&quot; crap is not exclusive to rand.  The same sh!t is happening to perrin.  so whattaya say to that!?  I think that since perrin, mat, and rand are all ta'veren who are connected (i.e. ishy said if one is cut down, all fall), maybe the 3rd face in rand's head, and the face in perrin's head, are the source of mat's memories.  i submitted another profound theory on mat's memories on the blackboard earlier, and although this contradicts it somewhat, you gotta cover all of your bases.  <br />until my next post, I remain:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 23:27:48
subject: <b>Subtle changes</b>
body:
i was in the middle of reading WH for the 3rd time when i wrote the last post.  I now rescind the part that says the 3rd man is the source of mat's memories (i d that idea anyway).  I say this, because upon getting further into WH for the 3rd time, i discovered that mat has ALSO been getting swirling colors, etc. in his head.  So there.  Mat Perrin and Rand all have it, so it isn't anything unique to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-16 22:21:50
subject: <b>Yeah, but</b>
body:
If you want to take it literally, the Dragon can't be Reborn 'til the Last Battle itself. An infant would probably not be much help against the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 12:50:33
subject: <b>Dragonmount</b>
body:
Rand, as the true Dragon reborn, has been fufilling prophecies since the day he was born on Dragonmount.  GA could not possibly be a Dragon who didn't achieve his potential, because he wasn't born on Dragonmount, or fufill any prophecies.  Rand had already done that, and gotten the herons before he ever proclaimed himself DR.  I do agree that the third man is probably another incarnation of the Dragon soul, I think a lot of theories act as if LTT and Rand are two different people, and the the third could be another person.


created: 2002-10-05 11:04:10
subject: <b>balance ?</b>
body:
Well Rand was indeed balanced/challenged by Hawkwing,<br />but Hawkwing was balanced by Ishamael alone.


created: 2002-10-22 21:43:35
subject: <b>i must disagree</b>
body:
i'm sorry but the theory that guaire could be the third man is absolutely ridiculous. he is brigitts love and i think it would cause severe conflict of interest for rand to be his reincarnate. what would elayne say?


created: 2003-01-23 20:51:56
subject: <b>Guire Amalsan</b>
body:
Is it not possible that Guire could be re-incarnated as Mazrim Taim or Logain? If Guire was re-incarnate, one of those two seem to be the most likley choice.


created: 2003-11-21 08:02:01
subject: <b>Um...</b>
body:
aviendha firehair, Guaire is not Birgitte's lover...I can't remember his name atm but he was in T'A'R and told Birgitte not to speak to the girls. As far as we've been told Guaire isn't in the Dreamworld<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 18:35:27
subject: <b>perhaps......</b>
body:
This was the first appearance of Shaidar Haran, and we just didnt know it.  He could have been responsible for the blue flashes in his use of the TP.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-18 22:29:40
subject: <b>Whitebridge and the AOL.</b>
body:
When Rand went into Rhuidean he saw the Aiel's past. Sometime during the end during the Breaking, some one was talking about one of the insane men burning a whole town to the ground and causing the whole thing to turn into a sheet of glass. Perhaps this has a connection to Whitebridge and how it was invented. The one power was used to create it, if inavertantly, so that explain why it hasn't been destroyed yet. However, this would not make it a Ter'angreal, it would be more like cuendillar. Anyway, it's just food for thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 04:57:39
subject: <b>I do..</b>
body:
..like the idea that the bridge is one huge ter'angreal and maybe it detected the Fade and someone came to fight it due to that (although I have absolutely no idea who). However, I don't think the bridge could have caused the flashes, as far as I know the only thing that does that is a Fade's sword clashing with a OP sword. So unless the Fade was actually hitting the bridge with his sword, I doubt we'd see flashes.<br /><br />I really hope Jordan reveals the truth behind this mystery, it's something I'd love to know.


created: 2001-11-19 12:54:35
subject: <b>Me like</b>
body:
the idea that Whitebridge is a Ter'angreal.<br />I can just imagine Rand, with LTT in his head now, going back there and seeing it, and then LTT will mutter something about it being the exact same ter'angreal that was made to protect the hall of servants from Shadowspawn or something...<br />Yes, I'd like that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 14:15:19
subject: <b>For the hundreth thousandth time...</b>
body:
THOM KILLED THAT *EXPLETIVE* FADE!!!!!!!!!! <br />think about it logically from the Fade's POV: The boys get away, what is your next move? Rely on Birds to bring you their info? Um... NO. How about torture the old man that was with them until he gives up their location? Doy. <br />This means that Thom must have killed it, because it would have gone after him. <br />Now, i know that thom said that thwe Fade left him alone after they got away, but he knew that they were something else since they were sought after by AS, and so he was playing the Game, which I believe he mentions in that same chapter to Rand and Mat.<br />One side note, Moiraine doubts that Thom was killed when the men tell her of it, and is quite sure. That leaves two possibilities: <br />1: She knows who Thom was before their meeting in EF (What WAS he doing there anyway??? It's not like he had to go into a no-man's land to do his thang.), and mabye something about him that we do not.<br />2: In her test to become AS, Thom was in her Future vision, like Lan was in Nynaeve's. Mabye she knew about him for over 20 years?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 15:32:20
subject: <b>Thom, Moiraine and Fades</b>
body:
I, for one, always assumed Thom killed the Fade.  Why not? He's obviously quite adept with his daggers and killing Fades is difficult, not impossible. We've seen any of a number of single combatants do.  I'm not sure how he got his limp, though.<br /><br />I realize this doesn't explain the blue flashes, and that's the one book I can't find *%!&amp;%#@!!<br /><br />As for Moiraine...she was of House Damodred, of Cairhien (and certainly knowledgeable of Caemlyn).  She left some 25 years ago for the White Tower.  There's no reason she shouldn't know of Thom as court bard.  She does have something of an interest in the Sun Throne, and the Royal House of Andor, and he was connected with them.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-20 17:06:20
subject: <b>Fade, killed?</b>
body:
I don't think the Fade was ever killed. Thom says it ran away after stabbing him, because Thom wasn't it's prey.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 17:23:44
subject: <b>Thought&amp;Memory....</b>
body:
Like I said, Why would it run away? Thom was it's best chance of finding them after they escaped! I must say that i do like the idea of it's being Shaidar Haran, but agasin, why would it just leave it's best chance at finding them again? I know what Thom said, but he IS known for playing the Game, which is basically lying to people 24/7<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 23:25:41
subject: <b>Yo, dude</b>
body:
The Fade would not have to torture Thom to find the boys. They were still in its line of vision. The Fade could see them quite clearly running off. It knew the way they went. Why else would Darkfriends be on the lookout for them all the way down the road? ( Well, actually, a number of reasons including the dagger, but that doesn't matter. It knew where they were and wasn't going to torture some old fart when it could see the boys plain as day)


created: 2001-11-21 06:18:25
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran?</b>
body:
Do you have any evidence for the hade being Shaidar Garn except that it would be 'cool'. For all we know Thom could have got his hands on a pair of power-forged daggers, unlikely but would perhaps explain the blue flashes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-22 15:48:42
subject: <b>Am I missing something?</b>
body:
I always thought that the events in whitebridge were an early example of Rand channelling.<br /> We know that he had channelled by this time as he 'aided' Egwenes horse in the flight from Emonds field (although his major sickness didn't catch up until later).<br /> It seems to me that the stress of the situation caused him to channel in an uncontrolled way (as happened again later with gode et al). <br />It also goes some way to explaining why 'no two houses next to each other' were affected, and Moiraines knowing demeanor as she viewed the destruction. <br />I can't see that things need to be any more complex than this.<br />P.S. I lied ,I haven't always thought this, but I've just re-read EOTW and this all seemed to be sensible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-22 20:02:18
subject: <b>It was Rand channeling</b>
body:
Completely agree with sulpicia on this one. <br /><br />The book has the line &quot;The air in the square flashed an eye-searing blue&quot;, Seems like a pretty good description of lightning to me. As he didn't know he was channeling the lightning would have struck randomly, hence no houses next to each other being damaged. Add to this the fact that he channels lightning later in the book (In the Dancing Cartman, when trying to get away from Gode) and I don't think there can be any argument about this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 17:47:44
subject: <b>Cheers!</b>
body:
Thanks Jimbo, very gratifying.<br />As a postscript,with regard to the original theory of the bridge 'dealing with' the fade. According to Thom and the boys conversation with an innkeeper in Whitebridge, the Fade had already been in the town for some days.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 04:02:59
subject: <b>sorry...</b>
body:
I think that people are creating way too many unfounded scenarios concerning what happened with the fade.  First, there is no way that the fade died, since it takes quite a while for a fade to stop kicking, which would surely have sparked some gossip amongst the townspeople, and Moiraine would have surely picked up on this.  Secondly, unless you behead a fade, we have been shown that it takes an amazing amount of puncture wounds to bring one down.  How are you going to behead anybody with a dagger or two, unless you are standing behind them and use incredible force?  Not to mention Thom would have to do this while this snake-like entity is fighting him with a sword.  So, unless somebody is going to say that Thom jumped him from behind and sawed his head off with a dagger (and somebody will probably post that as a theory soon), the fade is alive.  Thirdly, why is it so unlikely that Thom picked up some power-wraught dagger?  Much more likely than a bridge, without any precedence by-the-way, started attacking.  Also more likely than Rand channeling.  First, to channel at something, you have to be looking.  And, does anybody remember what happened to Mat when Rahvin sent some lightning?  He died, just from being near the bolt (his medallion only protects against primary effects of the power, not secondary).  Therefore, how would a lightning bold strike at the fade and not kill Thom, who was fighting it?  Also, we have it well documented when Rand channeled in tEotW.  Bela, Domon's deck, and lightning bolt to save his and mat's butts at that inn.  All were followed by sickness, each sickness coming on closer to the actual channeling (which Moiraine explains will happen).  There is no sickness related to the Whitebride incident.  Lastly, Thom's limp.  If he had been cut by the Fade's sword, he would have died.  The limp is consistent with Thom's story of the Fade ignoring him.  He didn't bother to do combat, he probably just did some quick, fade-like move and kung-fued Thom's leg and then disregarded the old man, all without taking his eyes off the boys.  All through tEotW, it was said that these particular fades and trollocs that were chasing the boys were very single-minded about there duty.  What happens when Nynaeve is confronted in the woods outside of Shadar Logoth?  The trollocs ignore her.  So Occham's Razor, people.  No mystery here, just a visual way for Jordan to show that Thom was in fact attempting to fight the fade, probably with power-wraught steel.<br />hopefully enlightening...<br />The original pre-socratic.


created: 2001-11-24 11:59:12
subject: <b>Whitebridge</b>
body:
Whitebridge a ter'angreal? I like it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I don't quite remember who said &quot;the fade left after stabbing Thom,&quot; but that person was obviously forgetting what those &quot;fade-blades&quot; are made of. Remember that part after the Aiel fighting the tree fades?<br /><br />Now, before we see Thom again, *with* the limp, he was very nimble. Now this part is kind of vague for me as I haven't had the chance to re-read it yet so I can't really remember exactly where they fought, but the fade could've hit some part of the ter'angreal, triggering it.<br /><br />However, I like the Rand channeling bit better than the Whitebridge as ter'angreal, but this is just defending the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What I remember from tEotW was that Rand was clinging to his calm while getting away from the Two Rivers. I can't remember such a phrase in the Whitebridge part. But then, my memory's all fuzzy.<br /><br />I'll stop now before I completely stop being coherent <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 20:36:19
subject: <b>Fade's Sword</b>
body:
There are multiple time in the series where there are flashes when people attack fades.  In all the instances that I can think of, it is when the fade's sword strikes something (If I remember right, there are some pretty good examples of this when Lan is fighting fades on the rush to SL in tEotW).  What is far more likly is that in the age of legends they had to build a brige and decided thay might as well make it look good.  When Thom fought the fade, it proabbably eventually got it's sword out and Thom deflected the sword with his knives, hence the blue flashes..<br /><br />Telvin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 05:03:55
subject: <b>No disrespect</b>
body:
Me again, defending the Rand channelling theory.<br /><br />i) I don't have the book handy but I believe Rand DID suffer illness after the Whitebridge incident but put it down to Thoms presumed death. P'raps someone could check for me.<br /><br />ii) I don't know if anyone's tried it, but if you try to 'dagger' someone who has a sword, you either stab them or lose your arm/hand. The 'Thom power wrought dagger' idea is nice, and is possible, but is unlikely in my opinion, it certainly DOESN'T explain the destruction of the houses.<br /><br />iii) It seems that the void is necessary (at least in Rands case) for concious channelling (e.g. Bela incident), But there is no evidence of it in any of the later 'unconcious' incidents.<br /><br />iv) Re- having to be looking to channel at something.<br />   I don't believe Rand did channel AT the fade. He certainly wasn't looking at Gode when the later incident happened, but still managed to kill him, and he nearly killed Mat in the process (and himself come to that).<br /><br />In conclusion, no disrespect, but I think the Rand channelling theory is the one that clearly fits all of the facts in the best way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 17:39:31
subject: <b>Rand Channeling</b>
body:
I don't remember any case of Rand being sick after the Whitebridge incident, but I can't recall him being ill after the Bela incident either (just a case of saddle-sore I think). He was definately unwell after the lightning strike to get away from Gode but I thought that was more down to him being thrown against the room and being almost hit by lightning.<br /><br />As for Thom's limp, I reckon he tussled with the fade for a short while, got his leg hurt and then the Fade left him to go after Mat and Rand. As was said before, the Fade wasn't actually killed and wasn't struck by the lightning therefore Thom wouldn't have been harmed by it. Someone let me know if I'm wrong in this, but I don't think Thom has since explained exactly how he got his limp - aside from saying that the fade wasn't interested in him.<br /><br />Finally about the line of sight issue. Yes, I remember Rand in a later book creating that big wooden tower with the telescopes so that he could see where he was aiming the lightning bolts. But in Whitebridge, he wasn't aiming at anything and wasn't even aware that he was channeling. He just had a subconscious wish to lash out at the Fade somewhere behind him (to help Thom get away safely), and this manifested itself in random lightning bolts.<br /><br />Makes sense?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 22:03:47
subject: <b>More on Thoms injury</b>
body:
I agree, Rand channeled and caused the blue flashes that were most likely lightning. That best suits the facts in the theory. But what about Thoms injury? Could he have been hit by Lightning? One of those bolts could have hit the Fade exactly at the moment when Thom engages him. The Fade only gets shocked just long enough for Mat and Rand to escape, but Thom is too close and he gets hit in the knee. This would explain his injury quite well and we all know how unique lightninng strike injuries are. So Rand injured Thom, not the Fade. An interesting twist to the story.


created: 2001-11-26 13:29:11
subject: <b>not AGAIN</b>
body:
Yep, me once more I'm afraid.Once more unto the breach etc.<br /><br />I am now reading GH so can quote Thom re- the incident.<br />He said (on Rand saying he wished he had returned to help)<br /><br />'Bigger fool if you had, boy.  That Fade had no interest in me.  It left me a little present of a stiff leg and ran off after you and Mat.  All you could have done was die.'<br /><br />Of course this still leaves a number of things unexplained, and still others possible, but I'm prepared to take Thom's word that he didn't kill it, and it legged it, rather than finishing him off.<br />Maybe he did have a power wrought blade which helped the thing decide to go, but I don't personally believe this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 03:22:53
subject: <b>The Night&quot;runner&quot; ran away...</b>
body:
Thom said afterwards that the Fade ran away, and therefore  the possibly Whitebridge-ter`angreal could not have killed it. Though I like the idea that Whiebridge is a ter`angeral.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord Captain Commander Crossbow, <br /><br />Watcher of the Wheel  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br />until his Heart is Cold as Steel <br /><br />&quot;Of history we learn that we learn nothing of history&quot;<br />George Bernard Shaw<br /><br />&quot;What was is what is, and what is is what w</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-30 08:16:22
subject: <b>Stiff leg, how?</b>
body:
I haven't gotten around to reading GH  yet, so I'll take Sulpicia's word on what Thom said.<br />But exactly *how* would the fade have left Thom with a &quot;stiff leg&quot;? We all know what their blades do. They kill, they don't wound.<br />The only way the fade could've done that was to grapple with Thom, and quite frankly, given Thom's daggers, the fade would've been skewered.<br />Also, I doubt the fade would go for another weapon besides his sword.<br /><br />My best guess would be that Rand DID channel lightning and Thom is very aware of that. Thom, being the diplomat he is, says that it was the fade instead of Rand, because Rand would just get more and more depressed about hurting the people around him (though I don't know how far he is with that in GH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />I sooooo need to re-read that book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-30 08:24:00
subject: <b>*mutter*</b>
body:
Do me a favor, next time I think about posting something when I'm tired, please thwap me on the head or something.<br />I mistook GH for WH (darned abbreviations <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />Was this post even necessary?<br /><br />...damn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 02:02:48
subject: <b>I think you're reading too much into this...</b>
body:
All these guesses about Thom's leg not being the Myrddraal's work and whatnot...the wound isn't really important, so I doubt it's as involved as all that.  The Myrddraal, seeing it's prey escaping, didn't have the time to waste on an old gleeman.  It struck him, not taking the time to effectively make sure he was down, and went after it's targets.  It could have simply busted Thom's knee out, not even using it's Thakan'dar sword...hell, it might not even HAVE a Thakan'dar sword.  It is stated that their swords wear out, and that there are always more Myrddraal than blades.  Maybe Thom's Myrddraal had to make do with a regular blade.  Or maybe Thom was struck by a Thakan'dar blade, and managed to overcome it against the odds (however unlikely).  Or perhaps he was wounded and got it Healed, however the tainted cut had been at work too long and full use of the leg couldn't be restored (although I doubt it, as Thom doesn't really get along with most Aes Sedai).  Or maybe Thom, being rather old, managed to throw his knee out in battle...stranger things have happened.<br /><br />In any case, I think it's prettymuch straight-forward.  Thom fights Myrddraal, gets hurt...not much of a stretch, it's none-too-difficult to get hurt fighting a fetch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 13:38:40
subject: <b>Use quotes if you can't use logic.</b>
body:
Here's a nice little quote from chapter 22 of The Fires of Heaven.<br /><br />&quot;The Myrddraal's blade flickered like a serpent's tongue, darted like black lightning, but to counter Mat's attack. When raven-marked Power-wrought steel met Thakan'dar-made metal, blue light flashed around them, a crackle of sheet lightning.<br /><br />Suddenly Mat's slashing attack struck flesh.&quot;<br /><br />I think this makes it pretty clear the blue lightning can be explained by Thom having power wrought daggers.  There is absolutely no need to make the theory more complicated with ideas of Rand channeling or Whitebridge attacking.  <br /><br />As for why the fade runs away, if I were a fade in a busy town and people could see me, I'd getta the heck out of there.  They may be good fighters, but they're not fool enough to try to take on a whole town single-handedly.<br />


created: 2002-07-17 14:56:11
subject: <b>I like it!!</b>
body:
Although, I don't think Whitebridge has anything to do with detecting Fades, etc.  I just think it is a Power-wrought bridge, meaning that if the sword of a Fade were to strike it, blue flashes occur.  <br />Woody


created: 2002-11-11 20:06:37
subject: <b>Ah, the &quot;two random items equals a new theory&quot; syndrome strikes again.</b>
body:
Whitebridge is now a shadowspawn-zapping ter'angreal. Nice.<br /><br />Ok. Here we go. <br /><br />The Fade didn't stab Thom with a Thakandar sword. He just smacked him down, like the angel who wrestled... Abraham?<br /><br />Thom could easily have a Power wroght dagger. He is a cool old dude, with connections.<br /><br />The bridge is a friggin bridge. Not an AOL bug zapper.<br /><br />Bela caused the flash when her Bellfounder-wrought cannon full of fireworks blew the Fade across the river, setting fire to the town.<br /><br />Stop it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 18:12:55
subject: <b>YES!!!</b>
body:
Do you know how long I have been waiting for someone to post this theory. I would have before but I never have time. You can also add that after Birgitte gets ripped out of T'A'R' she mentions that Gaidal is out there somewhere as a baby or perhaps a small boy. Thank you for finally getting that out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 20:49:22
subject: <b>Woohoo! I like this theory.</b>
body:
With all Niall's work in the Falme area, it makes a nice thought that he ended up doing something worthwhile there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 23:22:43
subject: <b>I like this</b>
body:
Pedron Niall is actually quite a sympathetic character: misguided, but not really a bad person. I like the idea that he could have done something important. It's very Jordanesque irony, as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-19 23:48:08
subject: <b>Wow....</b>
body:
this is a little bit confusing, but I can completely understand what you are saying and it could make sense. Nice work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 09:15:52
subject: <b>Confused?</b>
body:
I think you may have confused Niall with Bornhald Senior.  Niall was in Amador in tGH.  Bornhald led the legion of Children at Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 15:48:21
subject: <b>My brain is slow...</b>
body:
It took me 5 minutes to realize &quot;Niatur&quot; is supposed to be a combination of Niall and Artur. And the theory was a mite bit confusing anyways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="papyrus"><b><font color="#3366FF">Z</font><font color="#3366CC">e</font><font color="#336699">r</font><font color="#336666">a</font><font color="#336633">h</font> <font color="#336633">S</font><font color="#336666">e</font><font color="#336699">d</font><font color="#3366CC">a</font><font color="#3366FF">i</font></b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-20 16:10:39
subject: <b>not so much</b>
body:
i have two problems with this.  Fist, the time.  while it could be a reverse of the olver dilemma, there is just nothing telling us, so there's far less to go on.  With the olver/cain situation, it's easier to stretch the limits of t'a'r time since we have more evidence, but with this there's like nothing that could give us a hint besides the fact that both hawkwing and niall are good guys.  also, i was pretty sure that ta'veran-ism follows the soul.  the dragon is a ta'veran, not just rand.  i think if niall was a ta'veran we'd hear about it.<br /><br />!<br />johan


created: 2001-11-21 14:32:41
subject: <b>Why???</b>
body:
...is there always someone who thinks that every important character has to be somebody else reborn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />? I think that those who are re-born will not appear as leaders of big houses or organizations but as small farmpeople or somebody like that<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />. The rulers are just themselves because rulers can be exchanged without destroying the pattern<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 09:32:12
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
I don't like the Niall/Hawkwinge idea (or bornhald/hawkwinge), but when applying it to Olver, it sounds real nice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 18:01:40
subject: <b>Millenium</b>
body:
Has anyone noticed that the year is 999 or something,and if the major events are lined up (breaking,hawkwing etc.) they all seem to be a thousand years apart.<br />Not sure if this is relevant to this theory, but interesting nonetheless.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />The whiter your teeth the more piss you've swallowed<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />(Catullus-try it you'll like it,although Martials better)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 20:00:52
subject: <b>Put your hands where I can see them...</b>
body:
...and slowly step away from the crack-pipe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  stupid thoeries make baby Jesus cry  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 16:03:36
subject: <b>T'A'R and time</b>
body:
Okay, when they say time flows differently in T'A'R compared to the &quot;real world&quot; what they don't mean that it's one day in our time and a different day in T'A'R.  What they mean is that if you and I set our watches to the exact same time and then you physically went into T'A'R with a watch on and waited 10 minutes then came back out, your clock would have a different time than mine would.  It does not mean that you would step out days before you went in.  So, Pedron could not be Artur in T'A'R before he died.  Time still only flows fowards in T'A'R.  It just flows at different rates than normal time does.


created: 2002-01-22 21:00:25
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
...you're trying too hard to make Niall someone important.  The fact is, he had to go to make room for the next leader.  Some say Galad, some say otherwise.  His time of importance was over, so he got cut from the team, so to speak.  And don't take this the wrong way, but why is it that everyone wants to make every single character in the story into someone else &quot;reborn?&quot;  Surely new people get born along with old souls.  Or maybe Niall had an old soul and just never did anything notable until getting the Whitecloak gig.  My point is, I know RJ is complex and mysterious, but SOME things in the story have to be simple and straightforward.  I think this is one of those things.  Niall just had to go...that's all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 06:20:31
subject: <b>No No No</b>
body:
If time flowed THAT wierdly in T'A'R then when the Salidar AS were checking out the reports in the Amyrlin's study they would've been reading reports that were years old. Time just flows a LITTLE differently ie a few minutes in the real world might be an hour for you in T'A'R it does not jump around by months or years - so face it Olver is not Cain and Niall is not Hawkwing


created: 2002-03-17 16:10:55
subject: <b>in response</b>
body:
a little off topic wandering here.. but in response to the person who asked why ppl were always trying to make someone else reborn I believe that people find it interesting to try and match up characters with the same traits and it's probably got a lot to do with the fact that many people believe that everyone is reborn in the wheel of time....


created: 2002-05-07 15:57:30
subject: <b>just one thing...</b>
body:
Much of this theory's credibility comes from the difference in years between the real world and T'A'R.  As evidence to support this, you use Cain/Olver as an example.  Just one little thing: Cain was respun after Perrin chases Slayer to the Tower of Ghenjei, because he shows up there with Birgitte.  Perhaps months later, Birgitte states that Cain would be a small boy.  Now I can understand a few years, but 10?  10 years seems like a pretty large time differential.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-08 16:35:31
subject: <b>Not to be rude...</b>
body:
BUT GALAD IS HAWKWING REBORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<br />if you think about it it really does make sense.  Galad is sort of a mysterious character, with Jordan not twelling us readers much about him, so I think it would be a nice twist if Galad was Hawkwing.  Um yeah...<br />Why I think this:<br />Both are extremely moralistic (Hawkwing named his _sword_ JUSTICE, for Christ sake!!!!!)<br />Both feel some dislike for Aes Sedai (granted that this may have been encouraged by events during their lives)<br />Both are excellent soldiers and the sort of men that other men want to follow<br />Both are woven in at crucial times in the current Age<br /><br />Plus, Galad is Rand's brother (duh), and I think that once he finds this out he'll lead the Whitecloaks behind Rand.  This would be a nice wrap-up, if you will, to Hawkwings comment about them fighting together.<br /><br />Alright, I'm done my rant.<br />And yes, I do think that Olver is Cain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-03 19:49:06
subject: <b>good idea</b>
body:
this would be cool if it could happen.  i'm not saying it is not possible.  my evidence against you is this, if rand is LTT then by your theory LTT would be there at falme, even thought rand is already there.  I think it is possible that Niall could be another hero of the horn, because, i maybe wrong, but i think when Artur was talking to Rand he meantioned that some of us are not here.  this might suggest that niall or mat could be hero's of the horn and who they are reborn weren't there at falme in their origanal bodies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-02 16:15:21
subject: <b>just so you know</b>
body:
just wanted to say for someone up there that being taveren is not something attached to your soul.<br /><br />It comes and goes without warning. One day you're not Tav the next you are.<br />This is stated numerous times throughout the first few books and my opoinion is that the only reason we're not still hearing about it is that everyone now assumes that Perrin/Mat/Rand are just going to stay Taveren until the last battle is won. then Poof no more Taveren and Rand will probably leave the ashamen to Logain and become a sheepherder with Min. Elayne will move on and rule caemlyn with an Iron fist. Aviendha never really gets over Rand and when Gawyn dies becomes a Lesbian with Egwene. Perrin of course will move to saldaea where his wife will rule until the day his Taveren ways fade and Faille realizes how Fat he is and has him beheaded. Mat will ALWAYS be Taveren(because he kicks ass). Him and Tuon will start a kingdom and have many many grinning little children. Mat of course will use his new found power to get free booze and little else (besides the occasional &quot;night in the hay&quot; with one of his serving girls) Tuon cares very little because after she decided to grow her hair out she realized she wasn't nearly as ugly as the empress always told her and suddenly all those guys she made dance naked for her all these years  showed an interest.<br /><br />As for the other characters Lan ends up sheathing the sword after learning nynaeve cheated with............Moraine!! thats right it was actually nynaeve pulling that stone out of the fire. Tam lives on Rand's farm and hits on min every chance he gets. Rand can only reply &quot;If I was still the Dragon Reborn you'd show a little respect you old bastard.....*under his breath*youre not even really my dad ya dirty sheep fu.........


created: 2006-07-28 01:50:55
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
&quot;As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us. Here, all is part of the dream.&quot;<br /><br />I think this means they are in the Pattern in flesh, just as she says.  They are outside the Pattern, waiting.  The Power only effects the Pattern, therefore has no effect on the Heros.  Special people are outside the Pattern, in T'A'R', and the Dragon himself was beyond even that, born only once in a GREAT long while.<br /><br />Olver might have his own place somewhere, but I don't see him as the G-man himself, regardless of how you try and argue it.  We don't know yet, and the last book will blow so many of our theories out of the water.


created: 2001-11-21 13:48:18
subject: <b>Haven't we heard all this before????</b>
body:
I agree Taim is not Demandred, but there's nothing here that hasn't already been debated to death.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 14:53:09
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
Yes yes yes yes yes we have heard it all before. We get it. There is no need to continue to provide evidence that Taim is not Demandred. If there are people out there that, for some reason, still think that he is, then posting the same information for the fifteenth time will not convince them if the first fourteen times did not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 16:13:21
subject: <b>Any more thoughts...</b>
body:
on the idea of Masema being Demandred.  He is not a subordinate to Rand.  He seems to have a bit of loathing for Rand actually, and has from the beginning of TGH.  No other Forsaken were located near Shienar, and RJ seems to have spread them out.  Masema has gathered a dark and large following, a la Rahvin in Caemlyn.  And I believe it was Graendal that spoke of Demandred creating havoc in the Westlands.  The DO commends Demandred for his success for who knows what, and from a Darkfriend POV, Masema has certainly acheived that, especially given the fact he claims his and his follower's actions (which have been murder, rape, and pillaging) are for the DR.  Which certainly makes all fear the DR.  But that's all old news.  There are more reasons as well.  Does anyone have any defining evidence why it couldn't be Masema?  What better way for RJ to set up the rivalry (which is only surpassed by the DR and Ishamael rivalry) than to have Demandred be around since nearly the beginning of the series in the form of Masema?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 17:51:03
subject: <b>Demandred Reborn</b>
body:
I always thought that Taim might just be a reborn version of Demandred.  It is likely considering the physical description and Taims temper, and if you think that would be messed up, in granting immortality to the Forsaken, or having them in stasis could very well have allowed Taim to be Demandred reborn without killing him.<br />Or Demandred coud be Pychotic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-21 17:52:55
subject: <b>My thoughts....</b>
body:
First of all on the Taimendred thing:<br /><br />   The Taimedred debate will continue to move on with the speed of a subway train being driven by a geetered out spider monkey midget on acid unless one of the following scenes occur:<br /><br />a, Either Taim or Demandred has a real time (i.e. as it happens present tense) meetin with Shaitan wherein in the Dark One mentions the other character as a separate individual.<br /><br />b, One of the two parties dies. In real time, full daylight in front of hundred of witnesses, with balefire having been used. The other one is then seen alive and kicking, preferably talking to the dark one about said death.<br /><br />c, At another Chosen meeting someone complements Demandred on his cunning and skill in using Taim as a proxy and Taim is then seen thinking about how much he hates being under Demandreds thumb. This should take place in the middle of a heated battle being discussed at the Forsaken meeting as something that is occuring in real time.<br /><br />d, The dark one issues a proclamtion to each and every one of the Forasaken that Taim and aint Demandred.<br /><br />Or...<br />e, Demandred and Taim have a real time meeting that is witnessed from at least 3 perspective (i.e. written from 3 separate POV's) two of which MUST be Mazrim and Demandred. This meeting hill have to occur in Far Madding or an Ogier stedding with both parties having been stripped naked and given full body cavity searches (to insure that there are no well ter'angreals present), and Shadar Haran in attendance and having announced that neither person will be allowed access to the true source during the meeting. This way no one can say that Taim is having a Tyler Durdenesque multiple personality thing going on, or that Demandred is using an illusory weave to make an image of Mazrim or vice versa.<br /><br />If any of the above scenarios should occur then the Taimedred debate will continue only more mildy and with less supporters.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 18:04:26
subject: <b>My Thoughts Part two</b>
body:
I can't really lend much support to this theory becase it's all old hat. The guy who wrote it came off like he was revealing some great and secret tid bit to us the unenlightened masses. Sorry dude it's been rung into the ground with a jack hammer.<br /><br />   Now the thought of Masema being Demandred makes a lot more sense. I don't think he's been him since TGH however. Prior to that he just wasn't important enough.<br /><br />   Early on in TDR Masema leaves to go forth and spread the word of the Dragon as his prophet. I think Demandred might have replaced him at some point then. On one of his stops in a village Masema might have unwittingly encountered a member of the chosen and been taken out.<br /><br />   So how's this relate to the plan that Demandred lays out at the beginnin of LoC? Well perhaps it invloved spreading chaos by using his identiy as Masema (or taking over his identity at that point). The next step would be to have the recently rescued Mazrim Taim go to Al'Thor and get on his good side.<br /><br />   This while 'the prophet' is giving the dragon a bad name, and setting himself up as a big threat, the real danger is playing the friend. This would be a big risk for Demandred because he has to be the threat. That might also account for his worries about being around channelers, or it may be trying to keep in 'character' for appearances.<br /><br />   Masema is way more likely a candidate than Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 18:33:34
subject: <b>Masema?</b>
body:
Um........no. Not that I believe that Taim is Demandred after the said POV in WH, but still, at least we have the fact that Bashere did not recognise Taim at the start of LoC. Masema has been around in Shinear for a long time, with him not changing at all until Rand proclaimed himself the Dragon.<br />No, more likley Demandred is that Lord (Weiramon?) that was supossed to be fighting the Seanchan in PoD but his horse was not dirty. <br />Oh, and the Forsaken can use the Mask of Mirrors to disguise themselves l la Lanfear in tSR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-21 20:31:06
subject: <b>Masema</b>
body:
Sorry, but Taim is not Masema.  When I first heard that suggestion ithought &quot;wow!  that makes sense,&quot; but now i reallize that despite a large amount of suspicious behavior on Masema's part, one thing disqualifies him as a forsaken.  The wise one's read his dreams.  Although they wouldn't tell perrin what happened in the dreams, they did tell perrin that they read them (and lying violates ji'eh'toh).  So sorry all.  Try again later.  But btw, demandred didn't carve out a holding for himself, as lanfear herself said.  and remember, sammael said that &quot;events to the south had demandred's mark all over them.&quot;  Hey!  come to think of it, what is south of illian except for the sea folk isles?  Maybe Taim is a sea-folk person.  who knows?<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-22 03:08:03
subject: <b>Here's a thought</b>
body:
Instead of wasting time telling us Demandred is not Taim which we've known for a year now, why not try to figure out where Demandred is. Lord of Choas Chapter 6 - Sammael at Graendal's palace saying &quot;Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies.&quot;<br />Look south of Arad Doman and leave Taim alone.


created: 2001-11-22 06:59:27
subject: <b>Mesema</b>
body:
Mesema's initial dislike of Rand is due to his dislike of Aiel<br /><br />&quot;Killing Aiel is the Light's work&quot;


created: 2001-11-22 11:45:32
subject: <b>But he must be Demandred!</b>
body:
Noone else could be thet strong with saidin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of Manshima <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Killer of Chat  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;kn&#228;b&#246;j inf&#246;r hans n&#229;d draken. Eller era kn&#228;n kommer att b&#246;jas &#229;t er.&quot; - Mazrim Taim in the Swedish version of LoC</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-22 17:05:56
subject: <b>I agree, but</b>
body:
100% of this theory is 9 months old, and 75% of it is at least 3 years old.  25% of it is that Winter's Heart thing.  And you know what?  It's STILL been counter-argued.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 02:14:38
subject: <b>*pouts*</b>
body:
he is, too Taim...<br /><br /><br />*says it just to hack people off* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 09:38:30
subject: <b>why, why...</b>
body:
WHY was this allowed to be posted, I thought all new posts were supposed to be original and not something we have heard tens of thousands of times before... I suggest a non-confidence vote against Ras, or whoever let this in...<br />All the facts you show us, have been discussed over and over, and you have still not managed to convince me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-23 19:48:48
subject: <b>What Taim ISN'T Demandred? I'm glad somebody can see something that's completely obvious.</b>
body:
Well that's a pretty authoritative view of something that's been a dead debate for years.  Did you figure that out during your 3rd reading of the series?  Seriously what the heck is this theory even posted for?<br />Great Gatsby is everyone else sick of these same old crap theories being posted?<br />Let me guess, Rand is Lews Therin reborn?<br />Then his next post will be &quot;*GASP* I'VE JUST DISCOVERED DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT CYNDANE IS LANFEAR&quot;<br />then &quot;Darth Vader is Luke's Father, despite them having different last names&quot;<br /><br />C'mon Three in a boat help me out here, I'm losing faith in this message board, it was once stimulating, but now anything that a 12 year old figures out gets posted. Use some discretion with posting these theories.  I don't mean to be rude, but let's move on to some deeper hud.


created: 2001-11-23 21:54:59
subject: <b>I admit this theory was a retread . . .</b>
body:
But it does allow me to insert my two bits on the issue. Having just reread LoC, I feel entitled to point out some very interesting things.<br />One -- Damer Flinn is the VERY FIRST PERSON that Taim tests in the Black Tower (&quot;A Woman's Eyes,&quot; p. 110 in the copy I have).  So not recognizing him is veritably impossible. <br />Two -- Bashere doesn't recognize Taim.  Now, RJ has never mentioned Taim getting that ageless look from using the power so long, but what if he has it? We're constantly told that at first glance Aes Sedai look really young, then at second old. If Taim has that look, then at first glance Bashere could have taken him to be far younger than he really is. This would be reinforced by Taim shaving, as he comments.<br />Three -- the infamous &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; comment.  Let's see -- everyone since the Aiel War knows that they are murderous bloodsucking savages, but here are several thousand laughing at the Dragon Reborn's jokes.  Taim might have been expecting real demons and got the Maidens in a good mood instead.  People have a tendency to hold to first impressions even after proof is raised against their opinions. <br />Four -- the test:  Taim comments that he found another male channeler who was willing to learn.  The way the test is set up, Taim could easily have discovered the test by accident if he had been channelling a lot around this other guy, while the guy was in the void but not yet holding saidin.  <br />Anyway, I think that scuttles the argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-24 06:56:49
subject: <b>Ok, here I come....</b>
body:
What the hell is up with this thread?! It's &quot;Raserei&quot; again isn't it....::checks::....it is as well!<br /><br />I think everything else has already been covered by others. Good work.<br /><br />Oh and the ageless face comes from the 3 oaths. You can tell this because of the Knitting Circle and any of the other female channelers who don't have the ageless look (Seanchan, Sea Folk, Aiel etc).


created: 2001-11-25 04:17:19
subject: <b>48% disagree!</b>
body:
That means that there is something fundamentaly wrong with 48% of the people who read this theory. 48% of the people who read this theory think that Demandred is still Taim. 48%! Have you people not read the books? How on earth can you still think that Taim is Demandred in disguise?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 14:06:02
subject: <b>Um...</b>
body:
Is this really a theory about Taim being Demandred? Or is it actually a fight between the two major factions of Wotmania: the Fanatics and the Anti-Taimadredites? Do the people who know each other IRL arm wrestle to see who will win? Does Robert Jordan read all these to get ideas of what NOT to write? When I am an author, I will. I mean, with this hot debate going on it's surprising that Wotmania-dude hasn't put up flame pics as if the page were catching on fire. *insane giggle*<br /><br />Obviously, I do not believe tha Taim is Demandred, or vice versa. Hey- has anyone thought of that? Maybe Demandred is Taim, instead. Maybe Demandred is the innocent dupe of a great plot. Maybe the Creator hands out immortality, too. I mean, s/he is the CREATOR, and thus s/he had to have Created the Dark One as well, and thus has some control over him, and can use his powers to make her/his followers immortal. Taim is one of those Lightfriends that someone posted a theory about, and he went and took over Demandred's body, forcing him to do good. But then sometimes Demandred fights back, and forces Taim to do something bad (such as those times when he acts a little...shady...) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 14:14:54
subject: <b>Strong with Saidin</b>
body:
Regarding 'no one else could be that strong with Saidin'.<br /><br /><br />Uh....why not?<br /><br />We're discovering new channelers all the time who are incredibly powerful (Alise, etc.).  Even Nynavae was a match in stength for Moghedien.  Logain is powerful. That young wavemistress' daughter who 'out-wrestled' Nynaeve. <br /><br />I do really hope this was a joke....<br /><br />To better matters...that point about the Wise Ones reading Masema's dreams is a good one.  I'll have to go find that.  Plus, while I've argued for the Forsaken using disguises, I can't recall when any have actually looked like someone else specifically.  So my favorite candidate Masema is starting to waver.<br /><br />I still like (despite what I said above) Gawyn as a darkhorse candidate, but maybe because it's just be so darn mean and evil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Lastly, and this is sorta to invite more informed comment, but that Light Cloak Questioner sticks in my mind.  The Children of Light have certainly caused a lot of chaos, and he's close enough to the position of power necessary, without being directly there, but still having the influence to shape policy and actions...to fit some of Demandred's tendencies.


created: 2001-11-25 19:53:32
subject: <b>In an attempt to clear up certain misconceptions</b>
body:
A few points to address. <br /><br />In regards to point 1 of the theory, which stated that Demandred wouldn't pose as Taim because he wouldn't want to be a subbordinate to LTT:<br />1) You are the biggest idiot in the world.<br />2) Has it occurred to you that perhaps Demandred was ordered to do this, perhaps from the Dark One, perhaps in the prologue of book 6 where he got orders from the Dark One?<br />Most people who are Forsaken generally obey orders from the Dark One, last time i checked.<br /><br />As it happens, this is actually a point against your theory, because Demandred's attitude toward Rand successfully accounts for Taim's behaviour, in two ways:<br />1) When Taim first came up to Rand, the bargain he offered was a &quot;compact&quot; where they would be equal members. Demandred would want this, because he wouldn't want to serve under Rand.<br />2) When Rand is announcing the name of the Asha'man ranks and awards Taim with his pins, Taim goes nutcase:<br /><br />Taim walked to the block stiffly, and Rand bent to pin the silver sword to the tall collar of his coat... Taim's face had as much expression as the stone beneath Rand's boots... Taim's face made stone look soft, what was wrong with the man?... He was holding the bag of sword pins so tightly it was a wonder none of them stabbed him through the cloth.<br />[...] Looking at Taim, who was making no effort to hide his disdain<br />[...] &quot;What has gotten into you? You've had a burr in your breeches ever since i put those badges on you. Is it something to do with them?&quot;<br />The most remarkable transformation came over the man. Taim shook visibly - with rage, Rand would have said, not fear - but when the shaking stopped, he was his old self again.<br /><br />Can anyone possibly explain the above behaviour with a normal Taim? I have a perfectly good explanation with Taimandred...<br />________________________________<br /><br />Now, concerning everyone who thinks that Demandred is somewhere in the south because Sammael said so:<br />1) You are the equal second biggest idiots in the world<br />2) Has it ever occured to you that Sammael was wrong? Do you realise that in the same book that he implied Demandred was in the south, he said &quot;I would have had his [Rand's] head in the stone of tear, except that someone sent trollocs and myrddraal to save him! That was Lanfear, I am certain.&quot;<br />He was certain. And wrong. Semirhage's PoV:<br /><br />Their uneasy alliance&#8212; if it could be called by so strong a name&#8212; had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.<br /><br />So, when Sammael is certain, he is wrong. If he isn't certain here, how can he have a hope of being right? Now, have a look at his quote:<br /><br />He cut in sharply. &quot;You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to.&quot; Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred always liked using proxies. &quot;Tell him  to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans.&quot; Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. &quot;So long as they stear clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it.&quot;<br /><br />Sammael thinks he has people in the south. It would have to be an army if they could &quot;carve out what he wants&quot;, and he wants them to stear clear of Illian. Obviously he is refering to the Seanchan, who are busy with invasion plans in that book. Again he is wrong. It isn't Demandred who is in charge, but Semirhage, as we later learn.<br /><br />So Demandred has nothing to do with &quot;the south.&quot;


created: 2001-11-25 19:58:40
subject: <b>this tired old debate</b>
body:
Taim is not Demandred!!! i have never believed he was and never believe he will be!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 20:26:54
subject: <b>Carving out....</b>
body:
Oooo...nice catch on that. Forgot about that.  Three groups are 'carving' stuff out:  Masema and his rabble, the groups in the Haddon Mirk, and the White Cloaks in old...whatever country it was. <br /><br />I'll submit that it's not the Seanchan because they're not necessarily 'carving out', and Semirhage is with them. I doubt the DO would allow much duplication of efforts.<br /><br />As much as Masema would be a tasty possibility, I'm starting to waver on him because A) as stated before, we don't know of anyone using disguise (the Mirror) to impersonate any one particular person. But...if they were, the best way to do it would be a 'mad man'.  Plus, the dreamwalkers make a pretty good argument.<br /><br />It could be Masema's friend, but if Demandred was such a good general, I can't seem him tolerating the filth and poor discipline so evident.  On the other hand, Masema is really doing a GOOD job of damaging things for Rand.<br /><br />I know very little about the group(s) in the Haddon Mirk, but, as with Demandred, they've been very slow in developing a flavor. Can't rule them out, save for that RJ said it should be able to be established, and not enough has been provided there.<br /><br />The White Cloaks. I'm starting to like this one.<br /><br />One other:  Sevanna's group. They're accomplishing the chaos the DO loves...they zip around a lot and are hard to pin down....we don't know for SURE that Lanfear and/or Asmodean put the false tattoos on Couladin, but...<br /><br />....that'd be more duplication, I thought they were Sammael's pawns as well (remember the 'fool' boxes?).  That'd be Demandred in a army full of female channelers, who would be as likely to follow the DO as Rand, no matter their motives.  One way around that is to not channel (much). How would the women know, after all?<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-11-25 20:50:30
subject: <b>Vashti --</b>
body:
Attractive as it is, two problems with the whole Whitecloak thing:<br />1) You mention the &quot;Questioner.&quot; Do you mean Carridin, or however you spell that? Sorry, but no can do -- he's a simple Darkfriend, and his knees turned to rubber when he faced Lanfear.<br />2) The Seanchan just stomped the Whitecloaks. Do you think Demandred would allow that to happen?<br />I like the idea, too (the irony of the &quot;Children of the Light&quot; being controlled by the Forsaken would be rich) but I don't see how it could fly. Too bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 21:39:07
subject: <b>Compelling Evidence?</b>
body:
In APoD (A Cup of Sleep) Mazrim Taim doesn't remember Fedwin Morr's name, and he was wearing his black coat and all!  He was also one of the very first group to be tested at the Black Tower.  I don't think that Demandred not recognising Flinn in a situation where he did not expect to meet any Asha'man can be taken as evidence one way or another.


created: 2001-11-25 22:54:18
subject: <b>The Demandred/Semirhage alliance</b>
body:
Remember the WH forsaken tea party. There, Demandred thinks, &quot;He was surprised that the alliance has held for so long.&quot; The reason he is surpised is that he is breaking the Alliance and messing in Semirhage's affairs by using the Seanchen through his proxie Suroth. Yes, Semi does control the Seanchen, but from the other side of the ocean. She has problems traveling because she is not showing up at above mentioned tea party. She has a charge in Tuon that takes up most of her time. How could Semi find the time to talk too Suroth? All the evidence points to Demandred controling Suroth behind Semirhages back.<br /><br />As to who Demandred is? I myself have no idea. There is a new theory out that hasn't been posted here. Balwerdred. Balwer first appears in LoC. He is fired by Valda just before the Seanchen crush the Whitecloaks. He seems to know more then he should. He has a habit of disappearing. Plus he is now in the service of Perrin. It makes you think. I still have to check it out myself before I believe it or not.<br /><br />


created: 2001-11-25 22:58:37
subject: <b>I posted this...</b>
body:
So no more bloody Taimandred theories are sent in.  I'm sick and tired of the blathering.  Stop wil the inanity and think of something original.<br /><br />If you cant do that, save the energy and go look in the damn theory categories!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 02:32:53
subject: <b>Isn't it odd...</b>
body:
That as much as everybody complains about this theory and how it is all old news, it is still popular in terms of BB responses? With all of the discussion going on here, how can anybody say that this is bad? After all, this theory is hardly dead, as people are coming up with new points all of the time. <br />To those of you who complain about this theory: What would you have us do? Sit here and stare at the wall until book 10? Do that if you want, but don't expect me to do so while there is still this type of debate going on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 20:37:24
subject: <b>What?!</b>
body:
When did this turn into just any theroy? Oh and something on that with the cheoden kal thing i think demadread was surprised that Flinn COULD channel! now if that was Taim he would realize that there is the possibillitythat he could!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />------------------I am never wrong!!!!!!!!!!!---------------------<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> I am SSJ Jozan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> swords are awesome <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of good books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Lini is the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Cookies and cartoons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Masema <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 14:49:16
subject: <b>stranger in shadows, and rattlesnake</b>
body:
stranger in shadows...carridin is .  daved hanlon watched him die in caemlyn.  <br />rattlesnake...balwer has been the spymaster for pedron niall since way before demandred ever got out of his prison.  and if he wanted to control the whitecloaks, then why take balwer's place?  balwer affected what niall somewhat, but it would be much easier to just kill niall himself, and take his place.  <br /><br />oh well.  just relaying info.<br /><br />until my next post, I remain:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 18:16:46
subject: <b>masema masema masema</b>
body:
Masema is Demandred enough said.  Using proxies, Look to the south etc.  I know what he is doing etc. All comments which point right to Masema.  Demandred is spreading Chaos as the Dark One ordered...


created: 2001-12-13 12:41:02
subject: <b>Cant be denied</b>
body:
You theory really seems to work.  When you first think about it, why would a person like the False Dragon, just give up and join with Rand?  Also, Taim just appeard out of now where.  If he had all thes Aes Sedia after him, and an army of bounty hunters, how did he make it into the palace with Rand without being caught?  Third, and finally, if this is Damandred, he is not the first Forsaken to take on a different appearence.  Remember in The Dragon Reborn (or was it the Shadow Rising), Lanfear made her was into the Stone of Tear and confronted Rand.


created: 2001-12-18 14:21:30
subject: <b>We at times overlook the simple, in favor of the complex...</b>
body:
As we have all been pelted over the months (and perhaps years) with the various theories surrounding Mazrim Taim, Mazrim Taim - Demandred, etc., a striking oversight has come to the forefront of my mind.  What if Mazrim Taim is simple a very powerful male channeler with all the shortcomings of a mortal man.  Jealousy, Envy, Mistrust, Skepticism, Doubt, Fear? etc. etc.etc.   He (Mazrim, at one time, had been convinced that he was the Dragon Reborn, all indications at that time would have supported it.  He is undeniably powerful in the OP, and therefore (while other clear indications are present to support Rand being the Dragon Reborn) Taim may not wish to accept Rand as the Dragon Reborn.  He may falsely believe that if he somehow 'removes' Rand, that he will fall into the role of the Dragon Reborn, as he is (in all likeliness) the next most powerful male channeler that is not a forsaken.  He could be acting strictly out of self interest, and the similarity between Demandreds orders and Taims could merely be the (throw the masses off the true path of the plotline.)  Think about it folks.  We have seen other characters act with their own best interests in mind before, without them necessarily being a wolf in sheeps clothing.  I think at some point, Mazrim Taim is going to repent for his attempts to kill Rand and his further attempts to usurp Rands leadership.  In the end, Mazrim Taim and Logain are going to be the tandum force (though clearly different in their strategies and beliefs) that protect Rand from himself.  Mazrim Taim is the presence of force over thought.  Might makes right.   Logain (having suffered the Gentling process) is more thoughtful and wiley.  A man more prone to persuassion over bloodshed.  The combination of their approaches, will be the key to Rand's ultimate goal.


created: 2002-01-07 13:01:37
subject: <b>Ummm.. No.</b>
body:
Taim could very possibly be Demandred. <br /><br />If Damer had seen Demandred, it wouldnt make any difference.<br /> <br />We know that at the beggining of LOC when Taim walks in that Bashere recognizes him. <br /><br />So, oviously Demandred found Taim after the BA helped him escape, memeorized his face, then killed him. He used inverted weaves to desgise himself, then went to Rand. Wich means, that Demandred is using a different face for Taim and a different for himself.


created: 2002-03-07 10:28:44
subject: <b>is he or isn't he?</b>
body:
I'm one of those who never thought that Taim was Demandred.  It seemed far TOO obvious for that to be.  I'm one for the Norry theory.<br /><br />Is the Whitecloak Questioner you were speaking of not Carriddin but Asunawa?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Now it is rude and on many places considered flaming to call someone an idiot.  Perhaps we could have a discussion that doesn't come down to name calling?  I am not one for a shortcut to thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 11:15:47
subject: <b>Taim HAS to be someone from the age of legends</b>
body:
I've never put to much thought into who Taim is, but in Lord of Chaos when he is telling Rand he should build his own army, after Rand goes to the farm after being bonded, Taim calls the Aiel '..these so-called Aiel...'  Why would anyone except someone who knew what the Aiel used to be, and is shocked to see how they've evolved, call them so-called Aiel?  I'm not saying he's Damendred, but he's someone.


created: 2002-04-30 13:32:14
subject: <b>exactly</b>
body:
i think you are perfectly correct, and i also think that Taim isn't even a darkfriend, but just one power-hungry SOB. he may be acting in accordance with the DO's plans, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a darkfriend =) gtg now, class is over =P<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rintaun Juril<br />&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;&#175;<br />http://www.projectxero.net/ (down at the moment)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 08:03:53
subject: <b>Maybe!</b>
body:
It makes sense, but I was SURE Taim was Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> I'd like it explained why Lews Therin keeps saying 'kill them all' whenever he sees Taim tho...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nobody MADE you read that, so what's your problem? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The Wheel weaves as the Wheel Wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 01:20:19
subject: <b>Finally...</b>
body:
Finally, somebody can put the clues together to put down Taimendred. I completely agree with the theory and have to add one point as well: Also in WH, CH:35, we learn from RJ's POVs that Osan'gar, a reincarnated Forsaken, has been masquerading as Corlan Dashiva. Given the Chosen's tendency to plot against each other as adamantly as anyone else, I find it highly unlikely that two Forsaken would be in collusion. Granted Greandal and Sammael plotted together for a time but that didn't last very long at all, not to mention they were acting as equals of a sort while Dashiva took direct orders from Taim.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;My heart rises with the sun, <br />To the chime of swords, I die at sunset...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-20 15:29:38
subject: <b>To Rintaun...</b>
body:
Taim is a DF. He ordered his asha'men Torvald, Rochaid, and Gedwyn (I think) to kill him as we hear two of them (can't remember which two) discussing the M'Hael's orders as they come up the stairs in the boot makers shop in Far Madding just before they were killed.<br /><br />With some now solid evidence that Taim is not Demandred, there are still many things still to be explained about Taim if he is only really Mazrim Taim:<br /> - Taim's strength in the OP<br /> - His uncanny ability to locate Rand (at the end of tPOD beneath the palace and earlier when he kills the Gray Man in Rand's room)<br /> - His many &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; comments<br /> - From Demandred's POV in last chapter of WH, he makes a comment to the effect of, &quot;A general should not have to fight his soldiers&quot;<br /> - Resemblance in physical appearance (hooked nose, dark complection) and also mannerisms (almost smiling)<br /> - Knowing things with the Power, such as testing for the ability to channel, picking up the making of gateways very quickly (not really a strong point here though)<br /> - Holding off the madness until the age of 35, showing no (visible) effect of the Taint<br /> - LTT's screaming that he should have killed them all when he had the chance when Rand is near Taim<br /><br />And there's prolly others but IMO RJ created such a dupe that he's turned Taim into something greater than can be explained away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-25 18:59:43
subject: <b>iron</b>
body:
maybe the walking around won't be the answer, but maybe something he already has will allow him to enter, like his medalion, or spear.  though, and I've not heard this question before, wasn't the spear already in Rhuidean, before mat went through the gateway.<br /><br />Also, the tower of ghenji isn't the only entrance, in the prologue of tPoD, they talk partly of a huge gold spire in the black hills.  Maybe this is another entrance perhaps, or maybe an exit<br /><br />Anyway, there's my 2 cents<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-25 22:45:50
subject: <b>I'd be surprised...</b>
body:
I'd be surprised to see more than 1% of the masses disagree with this.  Very good job, el' poster!  Brilliant parallelism (I'm not sure if that's a word!).  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Hey guys...Big gulps, huh? ...All-righty...Welp, see ya later.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-11-26 03:13:20
subject: <b>Um..</b>
body:
I thought Alfheim was where the Elves of Germanic myth lived.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 04:00:35
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
That's one of the closest followed myths that Jordan has yet used. Do you by any chance know of any stories of someone being captured by these fairies and then someone rescuing them? After all, that's a common sort of tale and it would be really useful in our speculations of how Moiraine will be rescued. Also, what happens to the people who are caught?


created: 2001-11-26 07:01:58
subject: <b>hey kidblondeel</b>
body:
I thought the golden spire was just a spire, not a tower...<br />You know, like a radio-thing...<br /><br />nice theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 10:32:21
subject: <b>Very Interesting theory... more info...</b>
body:
I liked your info... very insightful... what is your source, and how can i read more?<br /><br />Torin the Chosen


created: 2001-11-26 16:54:06
subject: <b>Mat and his luck</b>
body:
Well, the theory is great, I guess Mat will just be plain lucky and do the thing he needs to get into the tower. Remember, Mat is just plain lucky! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mike Weir, Canadian golfer, world master!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 22:45:08
subject: <b>spire, tower meh</b>
body:
I never knew there was a difference, I just thought that since there were two doors to the finn world, it would be likely to have 2 towers, If a spire isn't like a tower, what would it look like.  well anyhow, a big gold spire in the middle of no where could have something to do with the finns.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS I forgot to mention, excellant theory I'm very impressed


created: 2001-11-27 13:18:37
subject: <b>Walkin 'round</b>
body:
Mat &amp; Co. might easily walk around the tower three time just trying to find the door.  And since Mat has such good luck, he would likely happen to pick the correct way to walk.<br /><br />However, Slayer probably didn't go round the tower 3 times before entering when Perrin was chasing him in TAR.  This leads me to believe that there is some other trick to getting in.<br /><br />Nice Theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 04:28:17
subject: <b>Slayer . . .</b>
body:
Maybe you only have to do the circle thing the first time to find the door, and after that, it's always there for you.  But that would be too easy, so maybe it has something to do with the fact that it was in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not the real world.  Or perhaps, it's just 'cause Slayer's all cool like dat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Invertedpanda<br /><br />Have an ambushed night (by an Evil Clown) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Consistency denotes a lack of imagination <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 07:07:45
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
RJ just won't use the walking around the tower thing, he doesn't have to (and never does) follow these myths exactly. Of course he might well use it, who knows.


created: 2001-12-01 03:29:32
subject: <b>aammmm</b>
body:
how is it dat slayer gets into the tower anyway cause if it is in anyway like trying to enter the ways in Tel'aran'rhiod it just doesnt work its like putting your and against a mirror as perrin descovers in TSR.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />Down With All Fail Haters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-01 04:39:07
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
In TSR, Perrin walked around the Tower of Ghenjei twice then was warned by Hopper to stop. Bridgette also warned Perrin about the tower. The only thing not mentioned in the book was which direction Perrin walked.


created: 2001-12-19 14:56:43
subject: <b>Since all of you are wondering...</b>
body:
Hey , guess what?<br />This is how slayer got into Finn world.<br />The guy's been in and about TAR for a LONG TIME.<br />It is quite safe he knows the trick that Egwene learnde from the Wise ones.  He just imagined himself in the tower and he was there.<br />Egwene and nynaeve do that to visit the Tower in TFOH, remember?<br /><br />True although the path is worn<br />keep in touch I am the storm


created: 2002-05-07 15:41:21
subject: <b>Re: Fairy lore, the Tower, and Snakes/Foxes</b>
body:
I think if this theory is correct then Matt will find the way in like he always finds stuff. On accident.  I can just picture him walking around the tower looking for some clue as to how to get in muttering to himself &quot;How do you get in this blasted thing?&quot; next thing you know he's walked around it three times and there it is.  The entrance.


created: 2002-05-20 16:33:12
subject: <b>dagger and Finnland</b>
body:
I've been perusing the theory post for some time now and I tend to believe (as previously posted) that Mordeth came from Finnland, as well as the dagger.  After re-reading TGH, I noticed that Fain/Mordeth describes the dagger as having snakes (Aelfinn?) inlaid on the hilt.  Perhaps Mat will somehow regain the dagger (where is it now?) and, after entering Finnland through the Tower of Ghenjei by luck, perhaps to rescue Moiraine, use it to keep the entrance open, as a knife of iron is believed to repel the Finn (from another post).  Mat definitely has some connection with Finnland--spear-thing and foxhead medallion.  Maybe Thom will go along, too, and play some music to draw away the Finn so Mat can do his thing.  Hopefully I've neatly tied everything together.<br /><br />I kmow this a lot of speculation, but what else can you do at this point? <br /><br />Comments and critiques are welcome.<br />


created: 2002-12-12 08:06:25
subject: <b>his name is..</b>
body:
Huck, Huck, Huckleberry FINN. He was an adventurous guy too. Maybe RJ used the MarkTwainian mythos of so long ago to come up with Mat... not really, I'm just BSing.<br /> Great theory. Very exact. Maybe one day RJ will take you under his wing and you will become one of the Seven Majestic Authors of Great Fantasy!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 17:46:49
subject: <b>The Dagger</b>
body:
&gt;&gt; I've been perusing the theory post for some time now and I tend to believe (as previously posted) that Mordeth came from Finnland, as well as the dagger.<br /><br />I have not yet read a theory that Mordeth was Finnland-ish, but I do not think that the dagger came from Finnland.  It was a normal dagger used by (perhaps) a wealthy merchant in Aridhol.  Then Mordeth came and corrupted the entire city.   Moiraine says that there is not a pebble of that city which is not contaminated with the taint of Shadar Logoth.  The Dagger is more dangerous than a tainted pebble, of course, but what dagger isn't more dangerous than a pebble?


created: 2003-02-03 11:33:51
subject: <b>Fantastic theory!</b>
body:
Now that I've got the flattery out of the way ( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />), I'll just say that I was thinking of something like this just this morning.  Of course I wouldn't be the first to post something about the fairy mythology link.  *sigh*.  I want to add my few cents, though.  For anyone wanting to re-read Mat's adventures in Finnland, they're all conveniently located in TSR - Chapters 15 (Into the Doorway), 24 (Rhuidean), and, for Perrin's encounter with the ToG, Chapter 28 (duh - To the Tower of Ghenjei).  Anyway, I was thinking about why and how breaking the rules works with the Finns, not just who is going to bring what.<br /><br />Sorry, this is really long, but it's not really a separate theory, so I can't post it as such.<br /><br />(Kind of relevant side note: I was also reading &quot;Taltos&quot; by Anne Rice, part of her &quot;Mayfair Witches&quot; series.  These Taltos creatures (in Scotland) are tall and pale, with longer than human hands and fingers.  One way they can be captured is by playing music - they are distracted by it and drawn into it, and often cannot be released until the music stops.  There's some other stuff, but I won't go into it here.  So I drew a parallel. )<br /><br />Ok, so (p. 462, pb)&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.&quot;  Courage - when Perrin is wandering about the tower, Birgitte pops up to warn him and tells Perrin he has courage (p. 462 pb &quot;..which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness&quot;, both of which Mat has shown in abundance).  IMO, it just takes courage to try getting in the ToG or even going through the gateways, no special significance there.  Music - I think they're either distracted or totally trapped by music, and most fairy stories talk about fairies and singing, or fairies and dancing in circles to music.  Iron - they always bound witches in iron shackles, and iron keeps the Little People and other fairy folk away from you.  Fire - what do you do with witches?  Burn them!!  (just kidding)  So they don't want any of that in Finnland.  <br /><br />A note on the entrance to the ToG - the whole counter-clockwise (or widdershins) thing really appeals to me.  I didn't think about that, but reversal has a lot to do with countering certain enchantments - like turning your clothes inside out (and whistling or singing - music again!) to keep from being taken in by fairy illusion, or turning around counterclockwise a certain number of times to remove the bad luck of a black cat crossing your path.  As for the three times around thing, many spells and such only work if you say the prescribed words a certain number of times - can we say &quot;Bloody Mary&quot;, or even &quot;Candyman&quot;?. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> The book doesn't say which way Perrin was walking around the tower, unfortunately, but he did walk around twice before being stopped by Hopper and Birgitte shows up.  <br /><br />I know this isn't big news to anyone, but well, I wanted to say it.  I don't post much on here, but it really got me thinking.  And I really get a kick out of the foxy people wearing kilts.  That's got to be some sort of hint.  <br /><br />Oh yeah, and does anyone think it significant that our lovely Tuon is playing Snakes and Foxes with Olver??<br />


created: 2003-07-30 00:36:20
subject: <b>Oh...</b>
body:
Three in a Boat, you jogged my memory.  There IS a myth about a musician who goes to the underworld to rescue his wife.  The Greek tragedy of Orpheus and Eurydice.  Eurydice was trapped in the underworld after being bitten by a poisonous snake at the wedding feast.   Orpheus, who is the most gifted musician alive, goes in after her, lulling Cerberus, the three-headed guard dog, to sleep with his music.  Orpheus' music is so beautiful that he convinces Hades and Persephone to let him take Eurydice back but they set the condition that he cannot look back to see if she is following.  On the threshold of leaving the Underworld, he loses faith, looks back and sees her...and Hades appears and takes her back.  Poor Orpheus.<br /><br />Anyway...there it is.  A snake steals a lover, who is regained through the use of music and lost through lack of faith.  I hope Thom doesnt loose his future wife in the same way.  BTW, I'm of the belief that Thom will go in alone after her.  I havn't seen anything to change my opinion of that yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 06:22:22
subject: <b>Well thought out</b>
body:
The discovery of gunpowder will of course radically change ht world RJ has created. In fact, it will change it so radically that I think we will only see it's introduction right towards the end of the series and then it will not be well known. I don't think we'll see much of a conflict, I think that will come after the series is over. e may see the beginings of a conflict, such as an Aes Sedai realising how this reduces their power over others and trying to kill Mat to stop the news getting out or something, but not a huge argument for and against it.<br /><br />Then again, if their's a breaking at the end of this Age as well, who knows what will be lost?


created: 2001-11-26 07:07:25
subject: <b>Raserei;</b>
body:
do you REALLY think people in Wot-world will be more sensible? REALLY?<br />They have not been very sensible none of them (apart from Moiraine and Cadsuane) so far.<br />I wouldn't get my hopes up...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 08:51:32
subject: <b>hmmmmm</b>
body:
Pre-gunpowder there were still civillian casualties in war, foraging armies pillaged the land leading to famine, and long sieges often ended in the massacre of the town's inhabitants (i.e.20,000 civillians killed after the siege of Beziers in the 14th Century.) Also if gunpowder is adopted it will be to make cannons, hence the need for a bell maker to cast barrels that the Illuminator woman (whose name I forget mentions).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 11:52:19
subject: <b>yeah.....</b>
body:
First, i dont want to see gunpowder in WoT. I mean, battle's would be faster and have no detail. With swords, you have emotions and luck and so on, but with gun powder, you have CLICK BOOM.<br />also: If this weren't the end of the age, it would create a new age. Not an age like in WoT, but an age like the real world.Gunpowder, along with the Schools, would create a revolution of sciences and so on.


created: 2001-11-26 12:25:25
subject: <b>I agree with God is Dead</b>
body:
Civilian casualties existed before gunpowder on massive scales. <br /><br />A couple more points as well.  I am not an expert on the history of warfare, but this theory doesn't seem to mesh with my understanding of gun warfare.  Gunpowder (used for fireworks and primitive artillery) is extremely ancient.  Someone will correct me if I am wrong but cannons were important long before guns.  I am not 100 percent certain why cannons replaced trebuchets.  I am not sure that cannons replaced them entirely until late 19th century.  (My guess is some combination of harder to destroy more mobile and faster to load.  I am not quite sure about accuracy.)  Trebuchets had ranges on the order of kilometers (if I remember correctly) and lofted quite massive objects so they packed quite a punch.  <br /><br />While it is probable that Mat will 'invent' a canon it is highly unlikely he will invent gun warfare.  Guns themselves are pretty old  and have coexisted with bows for a long time.  The reason that guns weren't used much was that they had a tendency of not working during wet weather and of being highly inaccutate.  It almost seems to me that the type of warfare is what allowed guns to be popular rather than the other way around.  It wasn't to around the American Revolutionary War that muskets with enough dependability and accuracy could change warfare.  (It takes effort to train someone to use the gun as well!)<br /><br />I am sure there are plenty of people out there that know more about this than me.  But I think that the situation is far more complicated than this post seems to suggest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 13:03:24
subject: <b>right then...</b>
body:
Guns aren't always the best weapon, an 18th century musket would be less accurate than a longbow, without rifling Small Arms aren't accurate much over 50 paces, but they can be used by anybody with a little training, a longbow reguires strength built from childhood, a boy would recieve a small bow and progress through larger ones as he grows and his body shapes to use the bow, in the 1300's English archers in the Hundred Years War could use the Great Bow but the french could not, Historians believe the Long bow was a craze during this period and gradually the skill became less common, being replaced by shortbows and crossbows and eventually the musket. in WOT we can see that besides TR's men only Lan can use one of the longbows, and he is most definately an exception.<br /><br />As for gun replacing blades, right up to the 19th Century the sword was considered honourable even when common soldiers used  a musket, and even today squaddies are still trained to use tne bayonet. And don't foget the beginning of tGH. Lan tells Rand about the War of Power when Aes Sedai created weapons far superior to the gun, but even alongside these they still made swords wrought of the power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 14:44:03
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
This is a very relevant theory, as I think many of the points mentioned will come to pass. I definitely agree that there will be some division between those who want to keep technology down to a minimum and stick with the current techniques/weapons (Whitecloaks anyone?), vs. those who will want to adopt new techniques/weapons (Rand, the school he funds).  I'm not sure that it will progress as rapidly as this theory suggests, but because Mat is involved, perhaps it will.  Certainly the discovery of new technologies (including gunpowder) will usher in a new age, whether the people want it or not.<br /><br />I also suggest that Mat will be the one to figure out how to finally kill a gholam, using some of the weapons/technologies he helps shape.  That alone could turn the tide of opinion towards his favor and change the outcome of the Last Battle.  Go Mat! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-26 16:09:30
subject: <b>Couldn't they...</b>
body:
Couldn't the Darkfriends use gunpowder bombs to start destroying stuff?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 16:10:58
subject: <b>Do you know... the muffin man?</b>
body:
Very interesting... very interesting indeed! I have given this same diea some thought in the past.  Matt mused to himself about tubes that a man could hold that shot things. Aludra already knows how to make weapons - she is probably bound by an oath not to make weapons, but now the chapter house is gone - Matt will probably get to use one himself, then think about how great an army he could have of men holding these in their hands... Now what group of men do we know who would fit the bill of the musketeer? Why, the Legion of the Dragon, or course! They are already trained with the slow crossbow. They would just need to use slow muskets!  Robert Jordan, may he live forever, has experienced battle. He was in Vietnam. Not everyone likes to think back on that type of thing, but not everyone is adversly affected by the carnage of war. Some are able to look back on it abjectively. Perhaps Robert Jordan, may he live forever, is one of these men. He may very well bring in artillery into the last battle or something.  He would know a lot about it and I think that it would be very interesting/cool!


created: 2001-11-27 00:20:01
subject: <b>The Muffin Man?</b>
body:
Meirin, WoT does have people who have thew ability to foresee the future. <br /><br />I kinda envisioned the moment Mat set off his first cannon shot, anyone with foretelling and who could view and whoever else can glean facts from the future would suddenly be taken over by this overwhelming vision of gunpowder leading to the end of humanity. <br /><br />Course, I'm dramatic that way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 03:39:02
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
The crossbow is actualy superior to the early hand cannons that were  used extensively in Europe when gunpowder came in vogue<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 03:40:57
subject: <b>I mean it</b>
body:
seriously people watch Tales of the Gun on the history channel<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 14:06:13
subject: <b>Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people</b>
body:
Let not lose sight of the purpose of guns.  Guns were invented, as with all war-making inventions, to make it easier to kill your enemy while at the same time making it less likely that you are killed.  General Patton said that you don't ever win a war by dying for your country.  You win a war by making some other poor loser die for his country.<br /><br />With or without guns, not all killing is done on the battlefield.  Just as many peasants were killed by looting and pillaging raiders before guns as after guns.  Guns did not cause more people to get killed it just made it easier (or more efficient).  <br /><br />Guns are tools, and as such, can not be inherently evil.  The goodness or badness of a tool is determined by its intended use, and the context in which it is used.  In fact, with the advent of guns has come democracy as well as facism and tyranny.  Guns were not the cause of either, but they are the tools people use to forcefully bring about change, be it good or bad.  Guns have won wars for freedom, and won wars for opression.  Guns are indifferent.  Therefore, I don't buy the idea that guns have lead to the downfall of society.  <br /><br />Tools don't have the choice of how they are used, humans do.  Therefore it is up to humans to decide if and when a gun is to be used to kill someone.  Sometimes that killing is right and justified, and other times it is not.<br /><br />The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars (or guns), but in ourselves.  -Shakespeare<br /><br />i.e. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.<br /><br />PS. I am not necessarily pro gun, I am just anti-(anti-gun).  Guns do need to be controlled, as do all other weapons. I just wanted to point out that it is not fair to blame the downfall of the world/society on guns.  We built society, only we have the ability to destroy it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 18:40:51
subject: <b>im not too sure about your history</b>
body:
while your actually theory in WOT may prove correct, i think you need to brush up on your history.<br />there were always civilian casualties in warfare. not on the scale we see today in industrialized warfare with mass production of long range weapons, but even in its most primitive state, war always caused the deaths of civilians, directly through sieges, moving battle fronts, and inderictly through famine, looting and raping. <br />now about your gun powder part.  black powder was invented thousands of years ago by the chinese. however it wasnt actually adapted for warfare until about 1500. when a monster canon was constructed which required over 100 oxen to pull and took almost a full day to reload, however it did take down castle walls with a single shot.  up until the creation of &quot;rifling&quot; there was actually not much danger in linning up 2 armies across from each other and firing at will.  as there was no real way to insure that you would actually hit anything anyway.  but you are completly wrong about linning up farmers and peasants with a weeks training and sending them to war. it takes alot of training and courage to stand there and get nailed by musket balls and canon fire.  as for the part about ducking behind something or lining up in a trench, doing so would be one way to insure your officers immediatly had you put to death and executed.  that form of warfare didnt evolve in its earliest form until Wellington allowed his british regulars to lay down on the ground to avoid unnesesary causualties while awaiting the order to advance, or to await the french attack.  the real &quot;era&quot; you are talking about could best be described as the time around the American civil war where there were many more deaths and causualties resulting from things such as the perfection, and wide use of rifling. the mass produtcion of weapons and equipment in an industrial war setting and new technologies like the repeater rifle.


created: 2001-11-27 19:39:36
subject: <b>guns only one factor of technology</b>
body:
guns only started to come into their own once industrialization had begun, the reasons being twofold<br />1. These are difficult to make and need industrial processes to be produced on a mass scale.<br /><br />2.The levy, down history war has only been in the summer months, the farmers who made up the bulk of an army would have to return to their fields to tend them between harvest and planting. Only when technology meant surplus food could be grown could wars start to be held during winter.<br /><br />so it is not just the technology of the weapons but the technology of the whole culture that dictates how war takes place, and hence the usefulness of guns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 02:05:13
subject: <b>Industrialization</b>
body:
... not only made guns easier to produce, but made them much cheaper as well. Guns were *expensive*, really expensive, until about 70 years ago (at least if you wanted to have enough guns for your entire army). In WWI, Russian czars couldn't afford to outfit their peasant army with real guns, so instead sent them into  battle with rifle-shaped sticks. Unless Rand is looking into the science of alchemy, I think he'll have some difficulties.<br /><br />Let's also not forgot that Rand has a far more potent weapon: the Power. Granted, its use isn't solely confined to his side, but one Asha'man could blow up a legion *and* shield himself and other people against its bullets. All you need is one reasonably powerful channeler (not bound by AS oaths <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) with each segment of your army and you have at *least* a defensive force against any number of guns. Possibly an offensive force too. I wonder if guns would be all that useful at all? Maybe to inter-country battles, but isn't Rand trying to *end* those?<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-11-28 04:21:22
subject: <b>Just another thought</b>
body:
From the early hand cannons to the matchlock musket soldiers who used firearms were required to carry lengths of burning match as well as loose powder on there persons and had a very unfortunate tendency to get blown up.<br />   Just something to think about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 07:14:47
subject: <b>Channelers</b>
body:
may well have the advantage now, but what about in the future? I know we'll never find out about this in the books, but it's interesting to consider. With Rand's schools and Mat going to discover gunpowder, things may well eventually get to the point where nuclear weapons exist in the world (it may take thoasands of years for all I know, but it's a possibility). Will shields be able to defend them then? Will they be strong enough? Currently the One Power is the main force in the world, but over time that may well change.


created: 2001-11-28 13:23:53
subject: <b>Casualties</b>
body:
In my theory, I am not arguing that there was not civilian casualties.  There were civilian causalities, but they were not to the same extent, or for the same purpose pre gunpowder as they were post gunpowder (please note, when I comment on the effects of gunpowder, I am also assuming it follows roughly the same effects on military strategy and reality in WoT as it did in our world, eg. trenches).  Pre gunpowder, when you attacked cities, you used your catapults to attack walls, and then went in and killed their troops.  It was imposable to actually go after the civilian population of a city because a catapult does very little damage per stone against anything that isn't as large as a wall or tower.  Each stone could take out one or two houses.  Do you realize how imposable it would be to take out Tear two houses at a time?  With explosive shells and catapults or artillery, it is feasible to attack the civilian population directly.<br /><br />It is effects like this that I was talking about when I commented on civilian deaths.<br /><br />Telvin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 19:30:44
subject: <b>sacking a city</b>
body:
in siege warfare, the worst  civilian casualties were often after the city had been taken. Once soldiers had fought through the defences they would feel they had won the right to do what they want and would relieve the tension of a long siege and a dangerous battle by looting, rape and getting drunk, during the 'sacking' all discipline would be lost and anybody trying to stop them would be killed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Supporter of Divine Right of Wotmania<br />Long live King Wotmania!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 12:18:03
subject: <b>Balls, balls, balls</b>
body:
A cannon ball would only take out a house or two also.  Catapults are just as accurate as cannon, given proper calculation of trajectories.  Thereofer, a catapult shot is just as likely to take out civilians as a cannon.  The most likely reason for a &quot;miss&quot; hitting civilians in either case is that the device was improperly aimed, either intentionally or unintentionally.  Intentional civilian casualties are terrible, but would occur despite the availability of guns if someone wants to kill civilians (rape, pillage, etc, etc).  Also, there are always unintentional casualties in war, whether with guns, knives, spears, or catapults.  Its a fact, people sometimes miss.<br /><br />In either case, your arguement that guns are worse for society than more primitive instruments of war is flawed, and deeply lacking.  Civilians are killed either way.<br /><br />Sorry, Mate.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 20:34:09
subject: <b>Ammunition</b>
body:
Cannons use more than one kind of ammunition cannon balls bounce along the ground grapeshot turns a cannon into a giant shotgun and explosive shells (powder filled projectiles with a fuse in the beginning)EXPLODE!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-03 12:32:59
subject: <b>no advantage</b>
body:
Guns are no real advantage in battle compared to a longbow unless you have backloaders. It takes quite long to reload and the accuracy as stated by several is not too good. Therefore the development of this &quot;art&quot; would have to be verry fast to give an significant advantage.<br /><br />Dopo


created: 2001-12-03 16:13:40
subject: <b>hate to beak this to you.....</b>
body:
....but gunpowder has already been &quot;discovered&quot;..... what do you think is the Illuminator's secret?????   Hello, McFly???  anyone home???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-03 17:50:12
subject: <b>Your history is far off.</b>
body:
During the first Turkish Ottoman attempt to conquer Austria, over half of the Austrian population south of Vienna was killed, raped or taken as slaves for the Ottomans.  To say that civilian casulties increased with the gun is false, the Romans burned Cathage to the ground and salted the ground, something that I have never heard of being done really until the first atom bomb.  Proportionattly it went down.<br /><br />Also, it took centuries of using powerder weapons to get effective guns, and I don't think that even a Ta'veren could skip centuries of refinement.  Also, I think mat may just go cannons, not guns because guns required more development than cannons to become effective.  Also, peasant mobs may be equiped in massive mobs with guns as you said, but they would be similar to the militia seen in &quot;The Patriat&quot;, they probably couldn't stand up to a cavalry charge, and you don't need guns to get peasant mobs.  Just look at The Prophet's hordes of soldiers, or during the hundred years war when the French massed over 40,000 soldiers for Agincourt.  It will take time to revultionize warfare, and it would probably at best jump into late 15th or early 16th century warfare when guns were used alongside traditional Medieval weapons.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-12-05 22:01:40
subject: <b>Just Thinkin'...</b>
body:
This has probably already been pointed out (too lazy to read ALL the comments, hehehe....) but in the American Revolution, for example, it probably would have been smarter to use bows and arrows than those crappy-ass muskets they were using. The B&amp;A were more accurate at the time. Now, in WoT, it's probably going to take a while to get the gun invented in the first place (cannons WILL come first), then it will take longer to make'em semi-accurate. Unless there's some AesSedai-Ashaman-DarkOne-Creator-Finn interference, but that's unpredictable at this point. <br /><br />Another thing to take into account is HOW STUPID BATTLE PLANS USED TO BE!<br />General during the American Civil War - &quot;Okay boys, let's line up with our accurate rifles and march towards the enemey shooting...&quot;<br />That's why the death toll was so high. Now, in WoT, as we have seen the generals are much more intelligent. No &quot;let's line up boys&quot; for Mat Cauthon, no sir-ee-bob. But you guys get the point: WoT battle tactics are much better than the real world tactics of days past<br /><br />But that doesn't matter anyway, because guns won't come around for some time yet *muhahaha* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 03:40:59
subject: <b>yeah right.........</b>
body:
Um in WoT they do line up in battle formations to fight and it does make sense and it made sense in the real world as well till WWI roled around.(not in all cases but usually when they did it)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />OMNIPOTENT BATTLE COMMANDER OF THE GREAT GALACTIC HORDE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 17:25:47
subject: <b>Channeling effects on Gunpwder</b>
body:
I don't know if this has already been brought up ( I got too impatient to post, and stopped reading), but...<br /><br />One of the major problems I see with the discovery of gunpowder is the ease with which anyone with some small ability to channel could make it pointless, and potentially deadly to the user.  Imagine a battle line armed with muskets, then imagine what would happen if an AS or a forsaken, or anyone else for that matter channeled a little fire into the powder kegs and muskets before they could be brought to bear.  For this reason, while I could see some limited use of gunpowder (maybe mat will start carrying a pistol) I don't think it can be introduced in enormous amounts more than one time.  I agree that the books definitely forshadow this discovery and use, I just have some serious concerns about how RJ will deal with that conundrum.


created: 2002-03-13 20:48:26
subject: <b>More corrections</b>
body:
The &quot;stupid&quot; military formations of the late 18th to mid-19th century warfare were a result of guns, not inspite of them.  Despite elementary school history books which portray farmers sniping at conspicuously dressed British soldiers marching around in plain view, the line-up-and shoot method was the best way of concentrating firepower.  The ratio of rounds fired to kills has always been staggeringly high.  Early guns fired a single shot, took several steps to reload, though trained soldiers could do it several times a minute, and were not very accurate.  Men would joke that they preferred the long bow to the Tower Musket, as it left no hang fire to give you away (so much for hiding behind a wall-you shoot one guy, and a pillar of smoke points you out to his now P.O.ed buddies, who are lined up in a firing squad formation to blast you while you try to reload without sticking up), had a higher rate of fire, and greater accurracy. As long as soldiers carried singleshot muzzleloaders, lining up in formation was the only way to deliver a decisive quantity of fire.  In other words, put enough bullets in the air at once, and something is bound to get hit.  The line was part of maintaining discipline, so they could stand up and fight effectively in the face of enemy fire.  You can't reload as trained lying down, and that breaks up the volley.  Of course you can always believe that the greatest military minds of this time period in all different countries were stupid, and despite being successful professionals, they really didn't know what they were doing.  In our time, thanks to superior educational resources, printing, and near universal literacy and availability of information, we effectively stand on the shoulders of giants, so we think we are smarter than these old-timers.  And yet the best people in professions like metallurgy, architecture, and sculpture or painting find it almost impossible to match the accomplishments of their fellows from 200 or 500 or 1,000 years ago, when limited to the same resources, techniques, and materials available at the time.<br />Also, as many people have said, it's too much of a jump to handguns.  Hell, the first machine guns were invented around the time of the War Between the States, and the first automatic rifles weren't used until WWII, a gap of 80 years, despite massive military-industrial complexes, and some bloody wars for motivation. The WoT is likely a generation, at least, away from personal firearms. However, it should be noted that cannons have always killed more people on the battlefield than any other weapon concurrently in use.  The trenches of 20th century wars were for protection against artillary barrages, not small arms fire.  More soldiers were killed by artillery than by rifles, poison gas, or machine guns in WWII, and tanks became successful once they stopped fooling around with multiple machine guns and concentrated on putting as big a cannon as they could inside.  Cannons will be plenty effective, especially against Trollocs who are only capable of massed attacks, and can only be controled by fear.  Also since the ballista was only invented a year ago in WoT time, I doubt they have trebuchets.  There is very little mention of seige engines, and the Aiel seem to do nearly as well without any.  Don't forget the WoT has no real concept of large, well organized standing armies.  Despite Tarmon Gaidon looming, Dyelin is horrified by the idea of a massive army answering only to the Queen (also it was the Queen's Guard Elayne spoke of increasing, not her personal soldiers.  Even if it was bad PR, who would argue with an army that large?), yet such a concept is entirely natural in the 21st century, when only the central governments of nation-states can afford true armies.  WoT military is primitive in more than weaponry.  Weapon technology seems not to be higher than the Dark Ages, despite the more 'civilized' concept of professional soldiers rather than 'warriors' or fuedal levies. The ballista was unknown before Idrien Tarsin invented it in the seige of Cairhien, and there seem to be only three commissioned ranks, lieutenant, captain, and general.  20,000 men was considered a large army before Rand brought the Aiel over the Dragon Wall, and someone seems to think it would be capable of conquering and holding a walled city which is one of the largest in the Westlands (maybe THE largest given that Elayne mentioned its population matching Tar Valon.  WoT has a long way to go before aproaching armies like those in even the Hundred Years War (ours not theirs), let alone Napoleonic times, Crimean/Civil War era, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 21:16:57
subject: <b>Mat, Gunpowder, &amp; Warfare in the WoT</b>
body:
I think this is a very interesting theory, and one which I think we'll see developed shortly in the next book or books in the series.<br /><br />We've already seen some precursor to this, in Mat's fascination with fireworks.  I think Mat will recall the power of gunpowder and the ease with which it gained him access to the Stone of Tear (TGH), and combine it with his idea of having peasants form a formidable army of crossbowmen.  He's already realized part of this potential in the Legion of the Dragon.  How skilled does one have to be to point a loaded crossbow at someone and fire it?  A great deal of damage can be inflicted with this unskilled army.  The theory is the same with guns, but with much more capibility of destruction of your enemy.  &quot;Point this end at your enemy, pull this little doober here, and BAM!&quot;<br /><br />Also, and admittedly this is a bit of a stretch, it may answer the question of how Mat loses his eye.  Recall your youth, when you were caught playing with something dangerous like a BB gun, or fireworks, and some authoritative figure shouting: &quot;you'll put your eye out!&quot; or some other such rot.<br /><br />In any case, something to thing about, and I think an inevitable plot development we can expect to see soon.<br /><br />-Logan47474 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Luck is a horse to ride like any other.&quot;<br />-Mat Cauthon  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Member of the English Quisition</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-10 03:06:47
subject: <b>A bit more on gunpowder developments in the real world.</b>
body:
A couple of points, not related to each other:<br /><br /><b>Armour</b><br />Another reason that gunpowder reversed the paradigm of small expensive armies:  previously, armour had significant military value but was costly.  The penetrating power of firearms made it less relevant.<br /><br /><b>Firearms making war worse/better</b><br />Worse: Firearms helped popularize mass conscription (damn that Napolean).  Bigger armies cause more destruction and can encourage expansionist thoughts.  Personally, I blame the legitmacy of consription more than firearms.<br /><br />Better: Firearms (specifically cheap firearms) make previously defenseless civilians the near-equal of trained soldiers.  They also close the gender gap in combat effectiveness.  An army sent to conquer is only a small percentage of a country's population, so they will be badly outnumbered if even half the defending civilians are armed.<br /><br /><b>&quot;Artillery&quot; vs &quot;Cannon&quot;</b><br />The term <i>cannon</i> originally identified an artillery piece of a specific size.  Other sizes had different names.  RJ is too clever by half not to know this, so I wouldn't be surprised if he refers to artillery as a <i>saker</i> or <i>culverin</i>.<br /><br />Jason<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-JasonDrake<br />&quot;Where the far left meets the far right&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 18:55:00
subject: <b>One Power + gunpowder = boom!</b>
body:
If this were a normal (non-magical) world, I would agree with everything you say. However I am wondering how safe gunpowder weapons would be against somebody wielding the One Power. I think that in the beginning gunpowder supplied forces would be extremely effective, but I am doubtful that they would remain so. For those who can channel, I wonder how hard it would be to explode gunpowder from a (safe) distance? All it would take would be a very small tendril of fire, and kaboom! Most channelers can channel small weaves as far as they can see, and I think that most would agree that the initial gunpowder weapons will not be terribly accurate nor long ranged. An interesting discussion would be if the AS oaths would allow that. Even if they didn't, I'm sure that there are enough others who can channel to make gunpowder weapons much less effective than they would be in a non One Powered society. Of course, if the OP can destroy gunpowder, than OP can protect it also. However it is a physical fact (entropy) that says that it is easier to destroy something than it is to protect it. And besides, channelers that are protecting your weapons and gunpowder supplies are channelers that can't be used someplace else. The only way I could see gunpowder effectively protected would be by shielding and then tying off the weaves. Not being an expert on channeling, I don't know how easy it would be to over come that, nor do I know how much energy it would take to generate the shields in the first place. Would you need a shield for each weapon? Or could you generate one shield that would protect all your weapons? Another topic for discussion. <br /><br />It's my view that the first few battles fought with gunpowder will be won by the side with the gunpowder. I could envision a battle where channelers exploded all the weapons and munitions stores, and would win the battle for the non gunpowder side. Then I think that gunpowder would become a specialized weapon used only in special circumstances. I think it's way too vulnerable to the One Power otherwise. <br /><br />NaClH2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-09-03 14:14:16
subject: <b>What are you thinking</b>
body:
No offence to the great moron but before gunpowder there were civilian casualties.  For one there was no such thing as a standing army until Napoleon.  All of the armies were made up of the Officers(Nobility) and the Enlisted(Commoners).  And only an idiot would think that the Officers were going to die first.  They would send wave apon wave of commoners from the nobilities' land to kill one another and whoever had the most men standing in the end won.  Nobility for the most part made up the calvalry, you know the ones with the armor, and the peasants made up the foot soldiers and the archers.  Peasants died constantly in wars, and lets not mention the fact that durring a siege everyone in the country side crowded into the castle, while it was being bombarded, attacked and starved.  So before morons come up with the idea that gunpowder made war more horrific they should learn about history. viva la Children's Crusade


created: 2002-10-24 02:44:22
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
your post really got me thinking about what the effects of gunpowder would be in a large-scale battle. it is obvious. with one side equipped with cannons and the like, the battle would be a slaughter... or would it? maybe you are forgetting the fact that we have people conjuring fire, making the earth explode under their enemies feet, calling lightning, and using other power-wrought weapons, at will. with this in mind i don't think that gunpowder will have as big of an effect on the BATTLES in the WOT world until after TG. i did particularly like the comment you made about how the Illuminators already knew what the effects would be if their craft was used as a weapon ( or something like that).<br /><br />on a different note, i don't think that firearms (artillery in particular) are not going to be advanced enough to be used until just before TG.  the ace in the hole for the good guys fighting trollocs maybe? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> the workings of a gun may seem simple to us but remember for the WOT people this is a really new thing. they would need time to develop their prototypes, test those prototypes, make any adjustments needed, develop new prototypes, test again, and start production. not to mention organize and train a group of people to make the cannons, cannon shot and gunpowder   (i do realize that there are bellfounders and Illuminators around, but not nearly enough to equip an army). <br /><br />in short, i think we are all going to be dissapointed (or maybe not) when we realize that in a world full of Aes Sedai, Asha'man, and other channelers, gun powder is not that big of a deal. fireworks are cooler anyway.<br /><br />smileys blow


created: 2003-11-14 16:08:03
subject: <b>Tatics...</b>
body:
Guns don't really mean that training of armies is ended, it just makes it easier to avoid. A man with a sword and a leather clad sheild could cut a large swath of men from your army with realativly little training (Highlander charge anyone??). And it would take training for a man with a musket (not to mention a bayonet) for the average musketeer to face him (remember Culloden).<br />And it takes training and drilling to manage and maintain the formations we saw begin in the mid 1800's.<br />Mat also has to make several more developments before small arms and field artillery become potent, but maybe he posseses the genius, or has the genius in Rand's schools.<br />What I'm trying to say I guess is that it may be a while before we see Mat with an army of musketeer's, and that they could be drilled and trained intenceivly.


created: 2003-12-25 05:28:12
subject: <b>Sorry, No Cigar</b>
body:
I thought I should interject here something no one seems to have noticed.  Aludra asks Mat what *she* may need a bellfounder for and if he can figure it out she will give him the recipie for explosive powder - the 'secret' of fireworks.  She does not say put gunpowder in a bell.  She does not say make a cannon or invent guns.  There isn't really anything to suggest Mat inventing firearms at all.  In fact RJ describes his world as being like the renaissance only without gunpowder (with the obvious exception of fireworks).  And contrary to popular belief, the earliest use of gunpowder in battle was in china where fireworks where fired above a battle to shake the morale of the enemy troops.  I'm very doubtful that anything beyond military fireworks will be developed in the scope of the series.  In fact I've always held that firearms are kind of pointless in a world where the one power rules supreme.  They are only worthwhile in an age where the power has fallen out of knowledge and use.  Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but it had to be said.<br /><br />Dovien Gleeman


created: 2004-03-06 16:47:37
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
Gunpowder wouldn't be used as the be all, end all weapon. Your right, the one power would limit its use. But in a battle the depends on whose channelers tire out first, guns add to the mix, and tip the balance in the favour of who has them (and agaisnt those that do not). <br /><br />     With an equvalent to muskets and cannon Mat or Rand can conserve their power wielders, putting them on the defense against the wielders of the enemy, and using the firarms as the main offense. <br /><br />    There are still some problems with this tatic, with hordes of Trollocs, simply arming men with muskets would be suicide, unless ther obtain the level of advancement at least equal to those of Gustav, lion of the North, back in the 30 years war. Whose light field batteries, and muskets gave him the edge. This still would pose problems, the musketeers would need training, and lots of it, similiar to what the English gave there troops in the late 1700's and onwards. This is because they will need to fire fast and somewhat accu, and remain calm facing a sword bearing charge against their front.


created: 2001-11-26 06:35:41
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
...that people forget is that the rules don't apply at Shayol Ghul, especially not in the Pit of Doom. Everything's twisted, it's possible that the DO is changing the Creator's rules as best he can. I can just imagine the Heroes of the Horn being called, riding forth all confident that they will be victorious as they can't die and then one of them gets cut and bleeds! Oh oh, that's never happened before, there's not mass panic amongst the heroes (as they are heroes), but they are afraid and some die. Hey, it's a possibility.<br /><br />I still find it quite hard to believe that Rand will return with the heroes having died. Firstly, I don't see how the pattern can settle on a dead person, so I don't think he'd be ta'veren while tied to the horn. That's a major blow.<br /><br />Like I've said before though, the Last Battle's just too hard to guess at this stage, I hope Rand survives it somehow though, then realises that the world no longer needs him specifically, there are other channelers who can do what he can and people who will want to get rid of him now that they don't need him to live for TG, especially if his ta'vereness leaves him right after he is victorious as I believe it will. He also can't return home as he has out grown it. He may think he wants a quiet life, but he's basically been an absolute ruler for so long now, he'll find it's not enough. So I hope he leaves, searching for either adventure or just time to think, promising to return one day. It'd be a really sad moment and I'm sure everybody would appreciate it, as he leaves all his friends and loved ones behind.<br /><br />But it's not my series, that's just how I'd end it, I have faith that whatever RJ does will be excellent.


created: 2001-11-26 11:17:38
subject: <b>Rand in dreamworld</b>
body:
I don't agree with the theory, but Rand being tied to TAR (usually from being dead) would be a good way to resolve his 3 wives thing.  They'd all have equal access.  After all, look at Egwene and Gawyn.  They've been having dreams only a porn movie director could love.


created: 2001-11-26 11:52:40
subject: <b>One thing about this theory</b>
body:
Okay.  The theory states that Mat will blow the horn after Rand has died on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and Rand, being one of the heroes, will come back.  My question is this.<br /><br />Why in the name of the light would Mat wait until the battle is that desperate, until Rand is already dead, to blow the horn?  Why would he not just blow at the very beginning of the battle and be done with it?  To me, this makes a whole lot more sense than waiting around until Rand (and most likely a great many other people) has died.<br /><br />Well, that's just my thought on it.  Maybe he'll realize that Rand has been bound to the horn and he will blow it again when Rand dies in order to bring him back....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Alundar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 12:34:35
subject: <b>If all it takes is a hero why do we need Rand at all?</b>
body:
Artur Hawkwing can finish him off.  Also, remember what happened at Falme.  Rand and Ishy fought at a location <i>above</i> or separate from Falme.  The course of the main battle depended on the course of the mini-battle between Rand and Ishy in that location.  (I'd assume that location is halfway between T'A'R and Earth.)  I don't think that this would be affected by Rand dying.  Rand will still have to face Moridin so whats the point of having him die?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 14:13:29
subject: <b>I was...</b>
body:
...thinking that myself Alundar, but then I thought of loads of reasons why Mat was blowing the Horn after Rand was dead. Perhaps the Horn gets stolen from him not long before the battle (by someone after selling it, not blowing it) and the time for Rand to face the DO has already come. Rand's holding the DO off from the world, Mat's desperately rushing after the Horn, just as Rand can't hold on any longer and is torn apart Mat picks up the Horn and blows it. Out pops Rand. I don't think it'll happen, but it's a way RJ could make Mat blow the Horn after Rand had died.


created: 2001-11-26 16:38:10
subject: <b>Hang on, that can't work</b>
body:
I hate to say this but the one of the safety precautions for the horn is that Lews Therin has to be there when the horn is blown for the heroes to march. To circumvent this most important and hard to achieve restriction if Rand dies by saying that he has appeared among the heroes and can thus lead them.<br />It is my firm belief that the Dragon has to be alive and present. Dead don't cut it


created: 2001-11-27 08:30:43
subject: <b>Are you saying...</b>
body:
...that the horn can only be blown during the Dragon's lifetime? And even then only if he's there to lead them? How do you know that? If that was the case, how come the Horn can also be blown by the shadow? Many a time we've heard that, contrary to popular belief, the Horn can be used by evil just as well as it can for good, but why would that be anyone's concern if the Dragon has to be alive and leading the heroes anyway?<br /><br />It may well be true that the Dragon has to lead the heroes, but perhaps he can be dead when that happens.


created: 2001-11-27 12:41:03
subject: <b>Because..</b>
body:
Not all of the rules of the horn are known. Many may have been lost in the breaking. It is not said that the horn can <br />be blown by a DF and the heroes follow the DF. It is said that nowhere does it say that the heroes of the horn will <br />not follow a DF if one sounds the horn. But we do know that the heroes have to follow the Dragon banner. They <br />know that LTT is present when Mat sounds the horn but do not charge until the banner leads them.<br /><br />By the way, why does the main battle have to be at the slopes of Shayol Ghul.I imagined it would take place in the <br />Blight/Borderlands and that Rand would lead a small force of a few people to Shayol Ghul.


created: 2001-12-01 19:57:52
subject: <b>holed on</b>
body:
wat about the fact that if rand dies ,wont the dark be able to bring him back 2 the dark side. i mean he is the lord of the grave or sum such. and if rand died and was tied to the horn wouldnt that screw up the hole theory of the dark one that when you die i will bring you back as a foot stool to myself.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-02 21:29:01
subject: <b>trustworthy?</b>
body:
can we trust what Ishmael said?  He is a notorious liar.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-06 09:50:14
subject: <b>um....</b>
body:
I read the other theory, and all you did was basically repeat what was said in the other one.<br />Altho it is an interesting concept.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-05 20:18:05
subject: <b>I KNOW</b>
body:
<b>RAFO</b><br />That is the only answer for this type of theory until it comes out in the book. In this case it will actually be...<br /><b>W</b>ait<br /><b>T</b>hen<br /><b>R</b>ead<br /><b>A</b>nd<br /><b>F</b>ind<br /><b>O</b>ut<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love animated smilies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 22:16:20
subject: <b>Thought..</b>
body:
Well.  Even given everything else that's been stated, is the Dark One only existent in the physical realm?  Or in the physical realm at all?  Once he's broken free, he will have the power to touch the Pattern anyway, won't he?  Eh, well.. More than he can now, anyway.  Besides, it's all going to be fought on his little playing field.  And apparently he has control over what goes on there, at least.  But as was stated earlier, we can't really know anything for sure until that time comes..


created: 2004-02-23 19:24:23
subject: <b>im stupid</b>
body:
i just tried to post a theory like this without realising this was here so i now feel uterly stupid anyhow i agree with this therory. but in my theory i  though of something that is not mentioned here. if rand is sent to Tel'aran'rhiod to wait to be spun out or called by the horn and then is called back all this means that Rand/LTT is pulled back into the world by the horn even tho he is now a non-corpoarl body he has one thing that he did not have in the earlier fight. he has the knowledge of all his previous lives. so if you belive like me that the time in randland is clycial(dodgy spelling) and all the ages have been played out thousands of times before then rand now has the knowledge of exactly how to remake the dark lords prison and will then be able to win the battle either by remaking the prison him self ( does any one know if the hero's of the horn can still channel after death) or if he can't still channel he could relay the information to others to accomplish the task,(possably some one like Nynaeve and Logain using the Choedan Kal)<br />


created: 2005-02-04 19:53:12
subject: <b>This has absolutely nothing to do with this theory,</b>
body:
but it just occured to me, so i'll post it here. I, from now on, (under the light, blah blah... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />) will carry a WoT notepad. this way, when random WoT thoughts appear in my head (as they so often do) i can write them down and not forget them. brilliant! i could make a fourtune sellin those things...<br /><br />Yes, i am WAY too obsessed with WoT... and proud of it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You should all be looking at your computer screens like this, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 06:15:41
subject: <b>no...</b>
body:
I just had to vote no... even though this was a nice thought, I cant make myself believe it... do you really?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 15:33:24
subject: <b>Good theory, but....</b>
body:
there is one problem. While I do think that LTT is real, and that the last incarnation of the soul is the one to inhabit T'A'R (hence LTT instead of another Dragon), I think that you forgot about the nature of the Heros of the Horn. That is, when one is re-born, their soul leaves T'A'R. This has been well documented by Birgette.<br />Also, LTT could not have killed Asmodean. From RJ's own mouth, he said that &quot;the Killer should have been obvious the moment that the killing happened.&quot;, and &quot;The killer was 'introduced' in that same book.&quot; Like you said, LTT made his first appearance in tDR.<br />However, most of the theory has merit. Good one, and very original!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 15:46:09
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
Just one thing. I like to know where the Taint comes into play in your theory. Cadsuane clearly states that the voices Rand hears are caused by the taint. Can you elaborate for me.<br /><br />Thankyou and good job


created: 2001-11-26 16:41:05
subject: <b>Because.....</b>
body:
Cadsuane doesnt know everything?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Nothings forgotten, nothing is EVER forgotten...&quot; - The Hooded Man</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 17:12:36
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
Great theory - I have had thoughts along the same lines myself!<br /><br />Maybe I misunderstood you, but I think that you said that Slayer could only come to the 'real world' as Luc. I don't believe this is so.  He seems to be able to choose who to come to our world as. This is demonstrated when he steps out of TAR as Luc and thinks that is a fitting body to kill his nephew in. I don't remember the exact wording, but he inferred there that he could choose which body to step out as. Also, I beleive he said that he remebered killing Aes Sedai and that it was a sweet memory - but it was not him but Isam that actually did the murder.  They share memories apparently.  He was refering to the Black Ajah chicks that he nailed the tounges of to the door (or something like that) in the Stone of Tear.  Now, Isam would have had to be in the flesh to kill the evil wenches, so that indicates that they choose who to be.<br /><br />I believe that Slayer chose to appear to Perrin in the real world as Luc beacuse Perrin saw him in TAR and would have recognized him. Slayer had no choice but to appear as Luc. Although I wonder if he has the ability to change himself into anything he wants to be and have the changed stick when he moves into the real world?<br /><br />As far as the same relationship existing with Rand/LTT?<br />I admit I too have wondered about this. LTT, as you say, didn't appear until after Rand first entered TAR in the flesh.  This sounds reasonable. However, I DO think that Rand is LTT reincarnated, just like Galad is probably Jaerom reincarnated. So, if Rand hadn't entered TAR in the flesh, perhaps LTT would never have gotten inside his head. But Rand's soul is the sould of LTT. Rand grew up and developed his own personality (albeit based on the basic Dragon character traits) and thus is his own person. LTT is also the same soul - he just has his own  personality that somehow got in Rands head. (Probably in TAR) This is kind of like Mat. It would seem that many of Mat's memories are memories of former lives.(especially the ones he had before the Eelfinn) He and those guys are the same soul. It was just reincarnated into different bodies over and over again. And each one had its own personality. But they all shared common traits like gambling and being good at generaling. Fortunately for Mat, the former lives his soul lived through are not talking to him directly!<br /><br />Many people here talk about 'the different Dragons' and about which one is 'the true Dragon'... They are all the same soul! The same soul reincarnated over and over again, experiencing new lives/experiences.


created: 2001-11-26 18:53:36
subject: <b>Souls and Mergings</b>
body:
First of all, very, very impressive!  I haven't seen this line plumbed before, at least nowhere near as thoroughly as you did. <br /><br />I'm not even going to go into a point-by-point analysis, just bring up some things you either prompted or reminded me of.<br /><br />-- Rand is not the only hero experiencing a merging.  Perrin also is.  And Perrin also enters TAR through the flesh.  Also, further of interest, is that Perrin is the one who encounters Luc and thwarts his plans and fights him and beats him. Another interesting point is that Lan saw Luc and didn't recognize him.<br /><br />-- Wolf-brothers, in general, could be examples of this merging across species. <br /><br />-- The Dragon Reborn.  Lews Therin Telamon could be a reborn Dragon himself, possibly? He's one of the very few (maybe only one) character with three names. This could be one of those 'hit us over the head with a brick' things...His three names indicate his own successful merging with a previous Dragon and his acceptance thereof.<br /><br />-- We know there have been Dragons who've gone bad.  As commented in TEotW, the Wheel seems to be spitting out a number of -possibilities- for Dragons.  They are incomplete or some other flaw and go down Logain's and Mazrim Taim's route, or some other such thing. Taim himself shrewdly said, &quot;Why not me? History tends to re-write itself to conform to what happens.&quot; (paraphrased)<br /><br />-- The Wheel does not depend on various Prophecies.  The Wheel does what it will, spinning out possible threads until one is right or needed.  Prophecies are things that reflect what the Wheel may or will do -- they do NOT cause the Wheel to do. Think of Prophecies as people watching a game or show and making predictions based on discernible events. That's stretching it, but Prophecies explain (or try to) what the Wheel of Time does, not cause it to do what it does.<br /><br />-- We know in the past, 'Dragons' have served the DO. Perhaps Slayer is an aborted example of this?  One very interesting comment by Slayer was that the DO knew how to contact him.  Just as there are other evils in the world beyond the direct malice of Shayol Ghul (Shadar Logoth), so too could one of those be the spawn of Slayer. That would make him/it compatible and acceptable and desireable to the DO, and vice versa. <br /><br />-- The Royal House of Andor.  Their footprints are ALLLL over this. You have Luc/Isam, Galad, Elayne, Rand, who knows who else.  I can't help thinking a bit of David Eddings' two versions of the prophecies. One will prevail and influence the continuing world.  Perhaps Slayer is the 'Dark Prophecy's  proxy, and it is a battle between the Slayer and the Dragon that will decide the outcome -- again.<br /><br />-- Hmm...another possible example of merging: Ishamael/Ba'alzamon.  Also known as Erin Morin Tedronai, he was also thought to be insane. Quoting directly from wotmania Encyclopedia: &quot;He believed that the war between the soul of Lews Therin and the Shadow had gone on since creation. He viewed this as an endless battle between the Creator and the Dark One, using human surrogates.&quot;   This supports the Slayer/Dragon proxy fight concept.<br /><br />-- LTT as the first Dragon. Why should we believe this?  Yes, he was KNOWN as the Dragon (-not- the 'Dragon Reborn'), but that's just a name.  Back to Ishamael, there's the strong possibility that the soul preceded LTT.<br /><br />-- Ishamael always claimed to not be trapped, at least not fully. Yet he only appears in dreams.  That stands to reason, if he was another merging. The Dreamworld would be apart from the Bore. I realize this also raises the strong possibility that Moridin is the proxy, and not Slayer. <br /><br />-- Keep in mind the non-inevitability of LTT taking over Rand, but maybe the opposite. Rand constantly does stuff that surprises the ethereal snot out of Lews Therin.  He does things differently.<br /><br />Okay, that's enough for now. Wow, very nice and fertile theory. Thanks.<br />


created: 2001-11-26 21:50:23
subject: <b>Vashti!</b>
body:
Perrin has never ever ever ever ever EVER... entered tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh! and I mean NEVER!<br /><br />Sorry if I was a little harsh there, but that was like saying that Nynaeve does not tug her braid when she is mad.<br />Some folks confuse Perrin's being in tel'aran'rhiod very strongly with his being there in the flesh.  They are thinking of the part at the end of book three when Perrin goes in after Faile.  They think that Hopper saying that Perrin was 'there to strongly' is indicitive of his being there in the flesh. Allow me to clarify for you:<br />The usual way of entering tel'aran'rhiod is through the spirit. The spirit (or a part of the spirit) leaves the body to go to TAR. When Hopper told Perrin that he was there to strongly he basically meant that Perrin's spirit was very disconnected from his body and that it would be hard or impossible for him to return.  (And the more strongly you are in TAR, the more strongly things such as injuries affect you in the waking world. As in, people who just barely touch it in their sleep might fall to their deaths from a cliff in their brief visit to TAR, but just wake up to soreness or a few bruises.)<br /><br />Being in TAR in the flesh means that the physical body is actually in the realm of tel'aran'rhiod. You are totally there. Only a channeler can open a gateway to TAR, meanging that a non-channeler would need a channeler to open the gateway for him.  If the ward around the room in Tear that Faile was trapped in was a gateway to TAR, then Faile's and Perrin's bodies would have disappeared as they stepped into the world of dreams. What the hedgehog ter'angreal did was force your spirit into TAR very strongly.<br /><br />Also, I think that people are allowed to have more than one name in the Westlands...


created: 2001-11-27 07:38:01
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
The theory is too long for me to go through point by point, at least not right now. I don't like doing this rather than actually adressing the whole thing, but I don't agree with you. Isam and Luc are 2 souls from around the same time put into the same body. As they are 2 souls they should be able to get by without going mad, there's no conflict in the head of these 2 as they are 2 personalities connected to 2 souls. I also think it is entirely the DO's doing in the same way that Balthamel returned in a woman's body, so it shouldn't be similar to Rand. In Rand's case, it isn't 2 souls and therefore 2 personalities, it's 1 soul with 2 personalitites. LTT doesn't exist seperatley to Rand, LTT's memories and personality are there, but they're still part of Rand. As for why Rand hears LTT speaking in his head, it's because the barrier between this incarnation of the soul and the last has been broken down by the taint. Due to this, Rand now has 2 personalitites in his head (along with new memories) and the mind just can't handle that. So what the Ran'd has done subconciously is assign a voice to these new thoughts and memories. That way the mind can cope for a while at least, it's made it seem like it's not Rand going mad as he would with 2 conflicting personalities always telling him to different things, instead he can blame it on this other man in his head and ignore it if he tries. The only reason the voice in Rand's head can be named as LTT is because, of all the people alive, Rand is probably the only one to know who his lot incarnation was, namely LTT. so when other male channelers hear voices in their heads, they think it's just a madness, when in fact it is the last personality which they have assigned a voice to, but of course they can't name that person.<br /><br />I have the feeling Luc/Isam's conflict will be with Lan more than Rand.


created: 2001-11-27 12:47:55
subject: <b>Only read the first paragraph so far but...</b>
body:
In tSR In the real world Luc has the body of Luc. When Perrin and Nyneave see him in the dream world he has a <br />similarity to Lan. We can assume that this is Isam's body.<br /><br />In WH (I think) Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave witness a man in the dream world who could have been Rand's <br />uncle. This could only have been Luc/Isam. So Luc/Isam can have the body of either in the dream world, why not <br />the real world.<br /><br />As i said I haven't had time to read the whole thing so maybe this point is obsolete but you do say that he is two <br />minds sharing Luc's body.


created: 2001-11-27 12:54:53
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
the fact that Rand must &quot;die to live again&quot; or sumthing could be used as a big factor of this theory - his death as Rand and re-birth as a mix of the 2.<br />It could be a psychological death instead of an actual one - maybe a long time without rand in the story and then a sudden re-emergence of his POV but with subtly different thoughts and all of LTT's memories (maybe even a kind of breakdown where he doesn't quite know whats what and who's who)<br /><br />Besides that great theory!!! <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> 14th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;center&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The Sandman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />*o* Gandalf's Aprentice *o*&lt;/center&gt;<br /><br /><i>&quot;the gift is the blessing of the giver&quot;</i><br />                       Frank Herbert <b>'Dune'</b><br /><br />o<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> It wasn't me. I swear! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 13:02:32
subject: <b>On Verin&#180;s Stedding channeling incident</b>
body:
As Cadsuane and Nynaeve proved at Far Madding, it is no problem to channel inside a Stedding using a ter&#180;angreal called well...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 13:04:41
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
Perhaps his isn't there in the flesh...perhaps.  The wolves (and Hopper) weren't exactly direct and obvious in many of their references.<br /><br />But...what IS established is that there are different degrees of merging within TAR.  Casual dreamers, as everyone is; dreamwalkers; wolf-brothers; full flesh entry. Plus, we also know from Perrin alone that there are different degrees.  <br /><br />I not only referred to him going after Faile, I referred also to his hunt with Luc. <br /><br />As to entering in the flesh only availible to channelers....I'm not yet convinced. Slayer may very well enter in the flesh, and we understand he cannot channel.<br /><br />Maybe it requires power of a sort...after all, Birgitte EXITED TAR in the flesh and yes, it was due to channeling, but not of her own.  <br /><br />There are different types of power; that we know for certain. Heck, the One Power, the True Power, etc. are an example.  But the dreamworld is yet another example.  What about the Horn of Valere? Does that have anything to do with channeling? I doubt it.  What about the wolf-brothers?  That's not channeling, or so we're told. Yet it also is a 'power' (since it allows some humans to do things they normally could not). The Finns are also another type of power (or represent it).<br /><br />So entering in the flesh may simply be one end of the range of degrees one may enter TAR.


created: 2001-11-27 14:06:13
subject: <b>Abstract please!</b>
body:
Hello, could anybody who have read this ridiculusly long theory supply a abstract please? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I do not want to read all that text not knowing what the theory is about.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 14:06:42
subject: <b>Addressing some questions.</b>
body:
Firstly, the Verin channeling incident I refered to was just a generalisation of that scene. The specific incident I refer to is when Verin touched that Machin Shin victim and gasped at how cold and lifeless he felt. It was often said that she used the Power to Delve him, but the incident in Winter's Heart where Berelain found Perrin dreamwalking and he also felt cold and lifeless makes it more likely it was only the phsyical sensation she reacted to. In other words, it can be taken as (almost) gospel that people with no souls, or whose souls are seperated from thier bodies feel cold to the touch. Verin's interest in Rand, her access to Corianin Nedeal's notes and the Dark Prophecy, her interest in the Slayer, and her stated intention to see Rand &quot;die&quot;, combined with RJ's implication that that was a vital scene led me to my conclusion.<br /><br />Secondly, with regards to the nature of the Slayer's changing face. It is important to note that we have never, in all the scenes he appears in, seen the Slayer wear anything but Luc's face in the real world. Until we do, I must assume that he cannot change his physical face to that of Isam's. Naturally, if we see differently in coming books I will eat my words, but for now I stand by my assumption. Besides, its alot easier to accept someone changing their face in Tel'aran'rhiod, where if you imagine yourself as Keanu Reeves in a black coat you turn into him, than to accept them changing it in the real world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i> &quot;Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.&quot; </i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 14:10:05
subject: <b>Abstract?</b>
body:
No need to get snippy, Urside. Theres a short summary at the bottom of the essay. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i> &quot;Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.&quot; </i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 15:06:22
subject: <b>I disagree but a damn good effort.</b>
body:
I believe you make a few assumptions that just are not true and therefore cannot support your argument.  I don't have time to go into them all, but the Isam/Luc Rand/Lews analogy is flawed on several levels.<br /><br />However, you researched your subject exhaustively Ashasan and took a great deal of time to get a quite complicated theory into a form that truly conveys what you are trying to say.  This is EXACTLY the type of theory I like to read, even if I disagree with it.  Kudos.<br /><br />Torin the Chosen


created: 2001-11-27 19:39:28
subject: <b>Possesion</b>
body:
I think it is much more likely that Isam possessed luc's body than a melding like you have suggested.  The other major difference is that I don't believe that Luc was Isam's soul reborn like we see with Rand and LTT.  With the possion, you have a sort of struggle between souls, while with Rand and LTT the soul is the same, it is only the memories which need to be reconciled.  I think Mat is a good example of how Rand/LTT could end up in the end.  So in effect both of them would die and a new man would be left.  <br />The point I would like to make is that Thom said possesion is possible and from what I have seen, Luc is the only example.  I think since we havn't seen Isam in the real world this also supports the possession theory.<br /><br />On another note,  it seems to me that the souls are supposed to be able to move between TAR and the real world, while the body is not.  The soul may be damaged by the body entering TAR with the soul possibly?  Maybee this is why it is so dangerous and Isam is so twisted.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 23:12:45
subject: <b>Hiya</b>
body:
I personally think that this theory is completely wrong, but ill fix an error in it anyway.  You said that verin could know the importance of luc/isam is so great that it is worth letting one of the 3 ta'veren die for him, but it has been strongly implied, if not said outright, that if one of the ta'veren die, they all do, because they are connected in some way.  Lews therin can't do crap outside of rand(i.e. kill asmodean), and rand can't get his soul tied to the wheel...its already tied.  He has lews therin's SOUL.  lews therin is tied to the wheel, unless you want to silmotaneously call artur hawking a liar, and launch us into a scenario where all of wot until now was a dream (if you do that i'll kill you!).  so you're wrong.<br /><br />Now as for lews therin's existance, you mentioned when ishy tried so &quot;suck out rand's soul.&quot;  Maybe even though he failed, he managed to extract some part that merges the two conciousnesses (rand and ltt), and maybe this is what min's viewing means when rand &quot;splits into 2 people, and they then merge back together.&quot;  maybe hell get that aspect of himslef back.  But one thing is for sure, he's not a sign of madness, because he knows things from the age of legends that are true.  <br /><br />As for posts on the blackboard, Vashti...SHUT YOUR MOUTH!  Isam can't be an aborted dark dragon, because they existed in their own respective time periods.  Isam and Luc both exist in the time of Rand.   And another thing, Perrin never entered T'A'R' in the flesh!  Hopper said that his body in the waking world would die beacause he was &quot;there too strongly.&quot;  Does that sound confusing to YOU?!?!  He cant have his body in T'A'R'and at the same time be in danger cuz his spirit's in T'A'R'!  And ANOTHER thing!  Where's my Tang?!<br />Im in a judgmental mood, and i like it!<br />this is,<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 23:53:35
subject: <b>Gotta Love Chumps</b>
body:
<br />Your logic is faulty and your manners non-existent.  First of all, there is no limit to possible Dragons. Logain was a False Dragon and is in Rand's 'time'.  Mazrim Taim was as well, plus others, and that's just since the start of the series time frame. Why would there be any limit to a dark Dragon? Mazrim Taim is certainly a dark False Dragon. Ishy was doing his best to make Rand one. We don't even know about Yurian Strongbow or Rogain Darksbane.<br /><br />As for Hopper, it's simply a matter of interpretation. Perrin being there in the flesh could certainly qualify as 'there too strongly'.   I'm not confused to other possibilities.  There is absolutely NOTHING in the statement &quot;You're here too strongly!&quot;  that negates the possibility that it means he's there in the flesh. <br /><br />Plus, you just contradicted yourself.  How could Perrin not be there in the flesh and be in danger if Slayer WAS there in some manner? We know that Isam essentially exists in TAR.<br /><br />Get a clue; volume doesn't equate to intelligence.  Closing your mind to possibilities won't teach you anything, but perhaps you already know it all.


created: 2001-11-28 00:04:57
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
when where there dragons that went bad, or to the dark one?  i remember a bunch of theories where people thought the portal stones were worlds where the dragon went to the dark, and all those were shot down because if one dragon went to the dark one in one time, then all the portal stones worlds would have gone bad, or something like that.  I just always thought that the dragon was the champion, and if he ever went over to the dark then the dark one would win, and if the dark one won then he would reshape the world in his image blah blah blah..


created: 2001-11-28 02:30:19
subject: <b>Verin</b>
body:
Kudos for the entire Verin part of this theory. I've never seen another particularly convincing explanation of what Verin's plotting is about. Your explanation of her plans also tie in to her new agreement with Cadsuane, right? I don't have WH (*cringe<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />, but doesn't Verin decide *not* to kill Cadsuane while they're talking about Rand? And if Cadsuane's job is to return Rand to humanity (laughter, tears, etc.)-- it would fit in well. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-11-28 04:42:34
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
Incidentally, I'd like to ask when Cadsuane has had another chance to deal with a Dragon Reborn, as opposed to just a male chaneller.  I mean, sure, some crazy people hear voices, but not everyone who hears a voice is necessarily crazy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Invertedpanda<br /><br />Have an ambushed night (by an Evil Clown) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Consistency denotes a lack of imagination <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 07:02:13
subject: <b>Pfff</b>
body:
People said I was rude! That guy up above, he was rude.<br /><br />Anyway, about the thing benny was saying. You aren't supposed to be able to understand that, ust as Verin and Egwene couldn't. The point at the time was, I believe, if the DO is free in one of these worlds, he's free in all of them, but if he's trapped in one of the worlds, he's trapped in all of them. Think about it too much and your brain is likely to leak out of your ears. The same goes for the Dragon. If one Dragon from these other worlds goes over to the Dark One, all Dragons would have to, but if one stayed with the Light, all others would too. Seriously, don't try to understand it.<br /><br />Personally I don't think that any Dragon has ever gone over to the Dark One. Perhaps the have in secret to bring him down from the inside, but they alwasy followed the light truly. Or perhaps they really did go over to the DO, but right at the last they realise what they have done and turned on him. My belief is based in the fact that the Dragon has to defeat the DO, if he doesn't there'dbe no wheel. People can bring up the idea that Ishamael said Rand had kneeled before him before now, but he's either lying or simply wrong.<br /><br />This theory is all over the place, it's just too hard to follow when commenting on it. I still like it though, although I suspect it could have been more than one theory.


created: 2001-11-28 14:17:36
subject: <b>Dark Dragons....</b>
body:
...should be, Dark FALSE Dragons. <br /><br />I think part of the definition of the Dragon is that he opposes the Dark One (or the presumed definition). <br /><br />Logain proclaimed himself Dragon Reborn.  Cadsuane says that one sign of the madness is hearing voices. No male channeler fails to go mad (until now, perhaps).  Ergo, all False Dragons go mad.<br /><br />Now, we KNOW the voice that at least Rand hears is LTT, or some segment of his soul/personality. <br /><br />So perhaps all False Dragons are potential REAL dragons. As Taim said (hardly the best source, of course, but the point is apt), it could've been him drawing Callandor.<br /><br />Could've, but wasn't.  The Real Dragon Reborn is the one who does it, and Rand did. Perhaps if the Trollocs had killed him when they attacked Tam's house in the Westwood, Logain would've still been healed by a newly discovered wilder named Nynaeve, and then gone on to draw Callandor and do other stuff, thus becoming the real dragon. And the voices would've started for him, anew (presumably), and away we go.<br /><br />Not all male channelers proclaim themselves as the Dragon Reborn. Very few do, actually. Thom's nephew Owyn didn't. Nor did any of the other Ashaman.   <br /><br />The Portal Stones revealed other possibilities where Rand did NOT become the Dragon Reborn. Many of them. Most of them. <br /><br />The Wheel demands a Dragon Reborn and will throw up potential people to fill it until somebody does.  The rest of the world has a way to recognize them by the insights from the prophecies.


created: 2001-11-28 15:23:21
subject: <b>Ah</b>
body:
I'm glad you cleared it up that you meant false dark dragons.<br /><br />Were any of the other false Dragons born on Dragonmount? That's the first part of the prophecy that they'd have to fullfil for your idea to work.<br /><br />Rand has always been the Dragon Reborn, but unless he claimed that, he wouldn't save the world. If Rand hadn't claimed he was the DR, the wheel might well have carried on churning out false Dragons, but no one else could ever actually save the world.


created: 2001-11-28 16:44:42
subject: <b>About the 'if' worlds, the Dragon defecting, and false dragons. The mystery solved at last!</b>
body:
Wow, I wonder if that incredibly long title will all show up!<br /><br />First of all, I really don't remeber where the quote is, but I think it was Sammeal who said it. He was saying that he had never been a theologan/philosopher, but Ishameal had, and Ishameal had said that there had been ages where the Dragon had, in fact, gone bad. Now we don't know for certain whether or not this true, seeing as Ishameal has no real access to this kind of information, unless he has voices from previous Nae'blis' in his head.  In this age, it would really suck if the Dragon went bad, considering what the stakes are and that the prophesies say that the Dragon must be there to fight the Dark One in order for the light to be victorious.  It is possible that, in other ages, the Dragon's position is not quite as crucial as it is now and he went bad. If he did, obviously the light was still able to triumph w/o him.  It is also possible that it was the pattern's will for him to go bad inthat age. Who knows for sure?<br /><br />-----------<br />About the 'if' worlds. They are really not so complicated as everyone seems to think. First off, there are worlds accessible by the portal stones other than the true 'if' worlds. The world we visited in detail in The Great Hunt is a prime example of this. That world was more like a different plane of the universe rather than an alternate reality / parallel universe. The 'if' worlds are essentially that - parellel universes. For every action there is an infinite number of reactions, as well as an infinate number of initial actions. For every one of those possible actions, a parellel universe exists for the outcome. For instance, you go out to eat, hesitate on what to order to drink, and multiple parallel universes are born for all the possible drink combinations you could have ordered. This happens constantly, so that the number of parellel universes is infinate and growing at an exponential rate!  Naturally, events in some universes would be similar to those in your own, since they branched off from yours (or you theirs) not too long ago in the stream of time.  Most of the universes would be way different than yours, however, because they branched off toward the beginning and a totally different time-line developed. It would appear that when Rand, Mat, Verin, the Shienarans, etc went on their stressful, three month journey by portal stone to Toman Head, that they only went through the worlds that were most similar to their own. For instance, it was mentioned that some worlds, probably ones stemming from the beginning of time, would kill you because of a different atmosphere. So obviously, they didn't pass through all of the worlds, but most likely those that were just most similar to theirs.<br /><br />The Dark One does not have doubles in the various worlds. He just exists as one Dark One that can touch all of them. The same if probably true of the Creator. The most likely explanation for this would be that they do not dwell inside of space-time, but exist seperate of it, in a different type of realm. All things that exist in space-time have copies of themselves in every one of the universes except for the ones that they were never born in of course.<br /><br />So that was basically the concept of the 'if' worlds. There is probably even universes where the Dragon's soul isn't even Rand's body. While I think that the Dragon soul has existed since near the beggining of time, due to the infinate number of possibilities, it has probably existed in other bodies.  Also, every one of the lives that Rand lived in those 'if' worlds possessed the soul of Lews Therin. Just because he didn't proclaim himself didn't mean that he wasn't the Dragon in those worlds.<br /><br />|8 &quot;Jumping off of bridges doesn't kill people; hitting the ground does!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-28 21:10:30
subject: <b>A Cool Idea</b>
body:
When I read the part of the theory that had the prophecy in it, I was struck by an interesting idea: &quot;once the heron, to mark his path&quot; or something like that.  Now, the heron is associated with swords.  And the most interesting mention of swords in the entire series (to my mind, anyway) is in TDR at the end when one of the Forsaken mentions to Rand that they (i.e., the F and LTT) rediscovered how to kill with swords. It was Be'lal, I think, but it could have been Ishy.  Now, perhaps it was the rediscovering swordfighting that set Lews Therin down the path toward being the best the AoL had to offer?  If it was in fact Ishy it would make for excellent symmetry that the first two swordsmen the age had wound up commanding the two opposing armies.  <br />Anyway, I just thought it was cool.  It would also fit with the theory if &quot;once the dragon, for remembrance lost&quot; applies to LTT and the &quot;twice with&quot; parts applied to Rand. <br /><br />Vashti -- I'm skeptical about your False Dragon theory.  As Rand mentioned to Taim, the first prophecy the Dragon Reborn had to fulfill was being born on Dragonmount.  Rand's the only one who met that.  It's my opinion that if Rand died before the DO was defeated, the Pattern was simply royally screwed.  The result being a bunch of really incredible luck (witness the boom of Bayle Domon's ship smacking a Trolloc at exactly the right moment) to KEEP Rand alive until he could fend for himself. <br />BTW, if that last bit's correct, then my theory about the Eye of the World is that someone back in the Time of Madness had a Fortelling that the Dragon Reborn was going to be facing a Forsaken without any knowledge of the OP, and constructed the Eye of the World not only to provide him with more power but also to do the bulk of the fighting for him. The description of power-duelling in tEotW seems a lot simpler than the whole weaving thing, and we've never seen saidin used that way since.  I think it was the Eye dumbing things down for Rand so that he had a half-decent shot at survival.  As for why his Ta'verenness didn't save him, as I've just described . . . well, his enemies at that point were Forsaken, and the idea of dark Ta'veren has been floated around, esp. with Ishy, so maybe the Pattern needed even more help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 21:54:37
subject: <b>stuff</b>
body:
First of all, great theory, although I have to disagree with some parts of it. Isam and Luc were around at about the same time, and it is sort of suggested that there was some sort of physical encounter between them when they melded, unlike with LTT and Rand. Furthermore, they were seperate entities, whereas Rand is a reincarnation of Lews Therin. The fact that LTT first began to show up after Rand entered TAR is very interesting.<br />This has been said plenty of times already, but just in case someone wasn't convinced yet - Perrin did NOT enter TAR in the flesh. We can be absolutely positive that he didn't when he was chasing Faile, because he was caught in the same ter'angreal as she was, therefore was there in the same way she was, and her body was still present in the waking world when she was caught. It is entirely possible to be in TAR with different degrees of strength, shown by the Wise Ones showing up hazy while on horseback, or what happens when AS are using weak ter'angreal. There has to be some sort of gateway for someone to go there in the flesh - I'm fairly sure you can't just fall asleep, and end up in TAR in the flesh.<br />About LTT killing Asmodean - that's not very likely, since Rand was already spun out at that point, so LTT shouldn't have been in TAR. Admittedly the time difference for the reborn heroes is confusing, but if the Dragon follows the same pattern as the other heroes (which I'm not convinced he does) he probably wouldn't be so clearly in two places at once.<br />I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the false dark Dragons, a _false_ Dragon who turned to the Dark wouldn't have any more significance than a any other powerful Dreadlord. It would not be at all the same thing as in the Ages where the Dragon supposedly turned to the Dark One. <br />I'm just going to stop before I confuse myself more than I already have...<br />Doesine <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 06:53:07
subject: <b>Hohum</b>
body:
&quot;It is possible that, in other ages, the Dragon's position is not quite as crucial as it is now and he went bad&quot;<br /><br />In a Q&amp;A with RJ, he said that a difference as major as that couldn't happen. He likened corresponding ages in one cycle of the wheel to another (ie the Third Age twice) to looking at two almost identical paitings on opposite walls. at a glance, they look the same, but on closer inspection you'd see that many of the tiny details have changed. owever, masive things like the Dragon fighting the DO and the taint and removal won't change.<br /><br />There is of course the possibility that in say, the Fifth Age, the Dragon turns to the DO. However, we can't prove or refute this, it's just a possibility, the pattern may require it for some reason.


created: 2001-11-30 03:14:46
subject: <b>In response to everything...</b>
body:
first off, great, well thought out theory!  I enjoy these, even if it takes me longer to read it than one of the books themselves.  J/k!!<br /><br />To Three in a boat:  People have called you rude?  You're blunt and outspoken, but where's the fault in that?  Many of our most beloved stars are that way/  But yeah, mr. Metallica man 2 lacks a certain degree of tact.  Not just here, but check out other blackboards he's commented on.  <br /><br />To Mr. Metallica Man:  Nothing personal, mr. metallica man (great band), but dude, you get a lot further with people, not to mention get more respect, when you respect others.  Being rude gets you nowhere.  It is, however, a good way to get a bunch of people ganged up on ya, if that's your fix.<br /><br />To Vashti:  I like your speculation on the false dragons.  I may not agree, but i find what you say interesting.  I'd like to hear more about it, personally.  Speculation on the false dragons is always great!<br /><br />To whoever said the thing about the eye of the world:  That is truly interesting...write a theory and post it.  I don't believe I've read anything like that, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, so go for it.  That explains why Ishy said, &quot;fool, the eye of the world will never serve you&quot; (paraphrased, of course).<br /><br />About Perrin in the flesh:  I am riding the fence here.  Yes, it's true his body has never entered t'a'r.  Therefore it would seem he has not entered in the flesh.  But do we truly know that you have to channel to enter in the flesh?  I don't know...maybe...this is just speculation...maybe you can use a portal stone to goto T'A'R.  Maybe that's where rand/hurin/loial/lanfear were all at?  I doubt it, it just popped into my head so I thought I'd say it.<br /><br />About Luc/Isam:  I don't know...I've always seen a connection there, theory is very interesting<br /><br />Who killed Asmodean:  I agree that it's fairly obvious...it was the butler!  Actually, no, it was harid fel...no, he was in Cairhienin, and last I heard, he couldn't Travel...so...it was bela!  no, asmodean wouldn't have recognized her.  What does it matter...nobody knows, we won't find out till later.<br /><br />Interesting note:  Maybe Mazrim Taim ought to change his nickname to Benedict or Judas, or someone else who betrays....hmmm...Ishamael, maybe?  *DISCLAIMER* I'm not saying anything about his identity, just poking fun at our little situation.  Besides, we all know Demandred is really Thom Merrilin (joking, of course).<br /><br />Anyway, there you have my 2&#162;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-01 04:14:07
subject: <b>Such a good theory, until.....</b>
body:
....you said that Luc and Isam could possibly be the Dragon (Reborn or otherwise).<br /><br />They were not ta'veren, acheived virtually nothing of significance during their lives (inc. NONE of the following: proclaiming at Falme, seizing the Stone of Tear, drawing Callandor, etc.), and were subjected to some kind of TP 'transplant' to become anything special, as opposed to being the Creator's most important tool in shaping the Pattern, reborn at the end of every Age since Time began.<br /><br />Slayer is nothing close to the level of importance of Rand, in that world or (appropriately) in the book.<br /><br />That said, you have some of the best explanations for Rand/LTT that I've read here. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-01 09:07:32
subject: <b>Elder Haman</b>
body:
You misquote me I fear. I never said anything about Luc/Isam being a Dragon, Reborn or otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i> &quot;Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.&quot; </i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 01:19:36
subject: <b>and then there was none.</b>
body:
anyway.... reading what you all have read<br />it is a possibilty that perrin can step between TAR and the real world, however slight, (just a theory, so hear me out)<br />Luc/Isam can obviously do this so why would it not be possible that someone else could? if i remember correctly he mentioned that the two Aes Sedai were quite startled to see him appear out of thin air so it's obvious he makes a full transition without channeling or else they'd see the gateway forming, so before anyone says it's not possible without channelling, remember that<br /><br />just making a point no one seems to have either noticed or cared about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-06 03:34:03
subject: <b>A bit of agreemant</b>
body:
I think your theory is good i just want to elaborate a tiny bit on it. <br /><br />Perhaps in the world of dreams all the spirits of everyone rest. and perhaps entering ther in the flesh makes you vulnerable to possesion by the spirit of your former incarnation. this would explain your problem with Artur Hawkings saying that he was lewis therin. cause when he rand entered in the flesh lewis therin attached himself to rand.


created: 2001-12-07 14:34:53
subject: <b>Cable modem went down</b>
body:
so i have'nt been here, but in response to vashti all the way back up by my post, i was talking about dark dragons, not false one's. they are 2 seperate things.  Also, hopper said to perin at one point, that if he stayed in T'A'R that powerfully his body would die.  that his spirit being in T'A'R' weakened his flesh....so HA.  sorry for the delay, and for making anyone who actually cares scroll all the way back up, but it's AT&amp;T's fault not mine.  <br /><br />Until my next post, I remain:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-08 01:24:14
subject: <b>NICE Theory</b>
body:
hey i love this theory well thought out with great detail. However i do see some things wrong with it, but they may be nothing and i thnk that this could easliy be true and possible. Anyways how do you explain matt having memories and other such things. He is having a rand like situation of his own with the exception that he has no mad man floating around in his head. But he seems to recall things too and say things without thinking. Like when he uses the war shouts so consistently. He also remembers battle tacticts that then trigger memories of battle. Now you are asking so? Well Matt is having the same problems as Rand however he doesnt have someone floating in his head. The major difference is that rand uses the power and Matt does not. However Rand also went into TAR and matt did not. So i am going to use part of this theory to explain this. Maybe TAR did trigger LTT. But maybe if Matt were able to channel and enter TAR he would have someone talking to him too. It seems to me that someone is in Matts head or else these sayings and stuff wouldnt be spurting out. Matt just doenst have to deal with the fact that whoever he once was is actually speaking to him but merely speaking through him. So basically what i am saying is that i like this theory but i do indeed believe that Rand is LTT reincarnate however creppy that is exactly the same way that he has always been LTT reincarnate but something this tim eis different and now he is talking to LTT instead of having LTT talking through him like what is occuring to Rand. Anyways i might just be crazy


created: 2001-12-11 01:53:07
subject: <b>Perrin in the Flesh/TAR</b>
body:
We know that one of the main times in question, rescuing Faile in the Stone, that Perrin goes into TAR and is told he is &quot;there too strongly.&quot;  We also know that he is under the influence of a Ter'angreal that basically puts someone in a coma.  When Egwene is meeting either Elayne or Min ( I cant remember which one at the moment..i think Elayne...) while being half-awake on the back of a horse, she is not as much there as she usually is...  join those with the belief that normal people who just barely touch TAR can wake with bruises from something that would kill someone that was totally there and I get the hypothesis that how strongly you are in TAR correlates with how deep you are sleeping...  just kinda a passing thought, I hope someone hasn't already exhausted this possibility and I'm just reporting old knowledge   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 21:48:18
subject: <b>Weell,</b>
body:
This is my first post here, but I have a couple of quotes that could make or break this I suppose..<br /><br />OK, the first one:<br />Path Of Daggers - Out Of Thin Air:-<br /> <br />   &quot;You destroyed them already,&quot; Lews Therin whispered in his head. &quot;Now you have someone else to destroy, and not beforetime. How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder&quot;<br />   &quot;Shut up!&quot; Rand thought fiercely, but cackling, derisive laughter answered him.<br /><br />And the second:<br />Winters Heart - Snow:-<br /><br />   &quot;I thought I could build,&quot; Lews Therin Murmured in his head. &quot;I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.&quot;<br />   Rand shivered, and scrubbed his hands through his hair. The other one? At times, the voice sounded sanest when it was the most mad.<br /><br /><br />I also thought there was another quote somewhere when Rand queried Lews Therin.. &quot;What other one burn you!&quot; or some such.<br /><br />Perhaps Lews Therin is referring to Slayer as the &quot;other one&quot;.<br />I myself don't think so. Guess this could open up other theories etc, I havent actually seen this posted anywhere on the web yet. Just ignore me if I'm way off track here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-02 15:43:08
subject: <b>Bayle's boom</b>
body:
&quot;The result being a bunch of really incredible luck <i>(witness the boom of Bayle Domon's ship smacking a Trolloc at exactly the right moment)...</i><br /><br />I always thought that Rand channeled, causing the boom's movement. Not that earth-shattering, but there you go.


created: 2002-06-04 14:32:13
subject: <b>Dragon... Slayer</b>
body:
This was a very impressive Theory... most impressive.<br />I've been going throught the posts &amp; I just stopped because there were so many.  One of the things I wanted to defend the original author of the Theory on was Perrin going to TAR in the flesh.  I think he was there at least partially in the flesh because of the &quot;hedgehog&quot; spirit trap.  Most of the people (at least the ones I've been reading posts from) are adimant that Perrin &amp; wolves don't enter dreams in the flesh &amp; I would agree with that, however the incident in question was not the normal way Perrin enters TAR.<br /><br />I also had my own little nugget to add.  This post made me think about how closely Luc/Isam &amp; Rand/LTT are.  I hadn't really thought of it &amp; maybe someone else has, but perhaps Luc/Isam is the &quot;Dragonslayer&quot;?!?  Maybe he will be the one to draw Rand/LTT's blood.  Maybe that is Slayer's purpose.  I thought of it like this (thinking of dragons in the traditional fantasy sense)... when townspeople are being terrorized by a &quot;dragon&quot; they usually hire a &quot;dragonslayer&quot;.  Maybe this is the Dark One's answer to the dragon.  I don't know but the name &quot;Slayer&quot; makes me feel like RJ is hitting me upside the head with a brick &amp; it never occured to me until now.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Goldeneyez


created: 2002-08-27 18:55:05
subject: <b>Just a point...</b>
body:
Ok, I don't agree with this theory in the least. No offense intended by that, it just strikes me as completely off. The main reason being that, if Lews Therin started emerging after Rand entered TAR, then how do you explain the ending of TEotW. If you'll remember, after fighting Ishy/Ba'alzamon he runs down screaming &quot;Shai'tan is dead&quot; and if you read it all he seems to have forgotten that he is Rand Al'Thor. For a few moments he appears to be Lews Therin fully. If Lews Therin weren't in his head before entering TAR than how do you explain this?<br /><br />I'm not trying to be rude, it just doesn't mesh in my head. I'm kind of wondering if you can explain it, because if you can I have no problems, but as long as that goes unexplained...


created: 2002-11-17 17:42:00
subject: <b>Isam out of the World of Dreams</b>
body:
There is a flaw in your theory: Isam has been out of the World of Dreams. <br />In Winter's Heart when Luc kills the man and woman hoping they are Rand and Min, he recalls the killing of Joiya Byir and Amico Nagoyin in the stone of Tear (the Shadow Rising, noting that it had been ISAM, NOT LUC, but had been fun nonetheless.


created: 2002-11-25 03:06:14
subject: <b>Hey dont mean to discredit you but</b>
body:
In Book 7<br /><br />Min has a viewing of Rand and another person, and he kills one and then they merge with the live one being more dominate (thats my interpretation).  Im only up to book 8 so i might have missed something im not up to yet if i have sorry.  But just that the fact you say that Slayer is in a more advancded stage of having two people.<br /><br />If Min's viewings correct then that may not happen.<br /><br />Sorry if im wrong.


created: 2003-02-11 10:06:17
subject: <b>Cool theory</b>
body:
I like the idea that entering TAR in the flesh began the breakdown of the barrier between LLT and Rand.  It seems to fit the timelines.  <br />As far as LTT concurrently existing in TAR i don't think so.  I think he exist WITHIN Rand himself.  He is part of who Rand is.  Another incarnation of the same soul.<br />And I'm not sure LTT should be characterized as a problem.  Sometimes he's helpful.  He tries to offer helpful advice when Rand meets Taim (kill him!).LOL<br />Seriously though, what knowledge Rand ciphers out of the ranting is a blessing.  He needs LTT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-22 17:06:07
subject: <b>Good Theory and I think its Right!</b>
body:
The more I read over your theory last night and looked up some of your points in the books the more I believe you have hit a home run! It all seems to me to fit except your little notion that LTT killed asmodean. That is sooo obvious! Everyone is so reading into that and its right in front of our face at the end of tFoH. The paragraph before Asmodeans death Bashere introduces himself to Rand carrying some goblets and wine. Then in the next paragraph we see Asmodean leaving Mat and Avienda and heading inside to the pantry to get wine. Well if this is happening the same time Bashere is getting wine before going to see Rand, this makes him the obvious killer. Though I don't know what beef Bashere would have with Asmo but I am thinking that maybe they aparently know each other. I don't think the &quot;wine&quot; bit was thrown in there by mistake.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-20 20:16:39
subject: <b>Interesting Theory</b>
body:
I think this theory is rather interesting, and the discussion that has followed, I'd like to throw in my thoughts on this as well.<br /><br />First off, the theory that entering the world of dreams in the flesh breaks down the barriers between a person and their past life is interesting, but asserting that that is why Lews Therin is in Rands head is off base. Voices in a person's head is a known effect of the Dark One's taint on Saidin. Saidin eats away at those barriers each time Rand channeled Saidin, with the exception of the pure Saidin at the Eye of the World and after he cleansed Saidin. Now, that's not saying entering the World of Dreams in the flesh didn't do anything at all. Entering the the world of dreams in the flesh may very well eat away at those barriers to a greater degree than the taint does. In effect, if could have been a year or more that Rand would have gone without hearing Lews Therin in his head if it was not for entering the world of dreams the way he did. At the same time, I am also sure that the Taint is involved as after Rand's first trip into the world of dreams, Lews Therin began to pop up, but he did not spend nearly as much time in the world of dreams as Egwene did when she entered in the flesh. So why doesn't Egwene hear voices as well?<br /><br />There are a couple of options on this, first:<br />The world of dreams breaks down the barriers at a greater rate then the taint, but because Rand had already taken in some of the taint by channeling (he wasn't just channeling, but wielding a power Sa'angreal) the barriers were weakened to the point where Lews Therin started leaking through. On the other hand with Egwene, there was no taint acting on her so the only damage was from the world of dreams itself, which on it's own was not enough to affect her.<br /><br />The second option is that the world of dreams did not directly do anything to Rand or Egwene, but it amplified the effect of the taint on Saidin. As a result, more damage would be done to Rand than to Egwene who has never been touched by the taint.<br /><br />Third is that the world of dreams has nothing to do with it. Almost every time Rand has been in the world of dreams in the flesh, he has used a large amount of the power, which means he's also taking in a large amount of the taint. Let's remember that Rand used Callandor twice before Lews Therin began to pop up. The amount of the taint that he drew in during those two times if frightening to think about. We must keep in mind that when Rand uses a Sa'angreal he is more likely to have a sudden decline than just channeling on his own.<br /><br /><br />Next is the whole potential dragon thing I saw, saying it was possible for the other false dragons to be the true dragon as well. I would like to point some things out to shoot that out. First, the Dragon is the same soul, born over and over again. Second, when the Horn of Valrie was blown in the second book, it was before Rand proclaimed himself, before any hint of Lews Therin in Rand head, Mat blew the horn and Lews Therin, a man bound to the wheel, and thus bound to the horn, did not come with the other heroes. This proves that Lews Therin was already reborn as he would have been summoned by the horn otherwise. Rand and Lews Therin are the same person, different lifetimes. <br /><br />That covers everything I have at the moment. I hope I covered everying in those subjects adequately.


created: 2001-11-28 14:28:50
subject: <b>No!</b>
body:
Two problems:<br />1. The use of the CK was planned to be restricted on &quot;securing&quot; the Bore from outside influences. That&#180;s true. But the reason was NOT that the AoL AS did not trust the OP to mend it. They just didn&#180;t know the proper weaves yet and wanted to gain time. Just read the end of the WoP in <i>The World of WoT</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />.<br />2. The TP is not the counterpart to the pattern. Neither is the Pattern driven by the OP. It should be quite clear that the Pattern can exist without the Wheel and thus without the OP. Or how could Shai&#180;tan otherwise break the Wheel and reshape the Pattern in his own image? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 15:26:52
subject: <b>Burr...</b>
body:
You pansy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-28 15:47:03
subject: <b>Mmmmm</b>
body:
If the True Power is in essence the chaos power, why is the Dragon known as the Lord of Chaos to those that follow the Shadow? That'd be like naming the Dragon the Lord of the DO's power.<br /><br />If the True Power is so needed by the DO, why has he decreed that only Moridin may use it now that he's Nae'blis (and Shaidar Haran if you believe he uses it)?<br /><br />^What do you mean the One Power doesn't turn the wheel which creates the pattern? Of course it does, we've seen numerous references to that in the books. And if it doesn't, why do the viewings Min sees around channelers heads fade when they hold siadar/n? Surely the reason for that is that their channeling is changing the pattern slightly, meaning the chances of those events happening are slightly less. You pretty much contradict yourself. The pattern can of course exist without the wheel (as you say), but that doesn't mean the One Power doesn't drive the wheel. If the wheel is being driven by the One Power and that is how the pattern is created, the DO has two choices if he wants to shape the pattern. Break the wheel, or prevent any channeling of any form. Clearly the latter is impossible to do some people channel without meaning to, so he has to break the wheel. The One Power still exists, but can't drive the wheel as it is broken, so the OP has no effect on the pattern. So the pattern can exist without the One Power, but that doesn't mean the One Power is what is creating it now.


created: 2001-11-28 16:52:12
subject: <b>Hmm... maybe Moridin can only use it (and Shaidar Haran maybe)</b>
body:
because... err... well, maybe the Dark One made a mistake? OK, so that doesn't really make sense. Maybe it is because Shai'tan is preparing to cast aside all of the Chosen besides Moridin, who is the only unfailing one of them, and besides, the others wouldn't use it much anyway because they are afraid of it.<br />As to the finding of the right weaves... hmm... I don't know.<br />As to the TP is Chaos Power, I just meant it was manipulative of the Pattern and was inherently destructive, therefore besides chaos it was the only thing that could weaken the Pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 15:23:21
subject: <b>the Choedan Kal</b>
body:
The Choedan Kal were not used, they were part of the origional plan to seal the bore using both male and female AS.  Since the females abandoned the plan the Choedan Kal were not used and the male AS went with another plan to trap the DO and the forsaken.<br />


created: 2001-11-30 20:09:42
subject: <b>Not called for....</b>
body:
Now let me start this off by saying I do have a good deal of respect for the work that the WOT volunteers put into this site. But a response to a theory like the one given by the reviewer of this one is just completely uncalled for. <br /><br />I understand that you are donating your time to go through these. But I consider the ability to review theories on a series like this more of a privilege then anything else. People work hard on formulating these ideas, and then submitting them. And I have seen far to many reviewers simple respond by basically saying &#8220;Yeah, you obviously don&#8217;t know what your talking about.&#8221; Responses like that are seeming to appear all over the place, not just on this theory by this reviewer. <br /><br />I have never submitted a theory personally, and I have a good deal of respect for those who put in the time and effort to do so. And I think as a reviewer you have the unique opportunity to be the first to congratulate the writer, and maybe throw in some ideas of your own. Not badger them and play their theory down.<br />


created: 2001-11-30 16:21:28
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
I like this idea. It's almost scary to think that RJ tied such small details together across nine books, but it's probably true. I always wondered what was really up with the pure saidin at the Eye of the World, but this explains it. Thanks<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-30 17:49:44
subject: <b>good stuff....</b>
body:
I think it is very likely that the same technique was used in both instances. It would have been cool if they had mentioned the correlation at some point but it seems to make sense. Why else would women be needed to create the eye.


created: 2001-11-30 19:34:31
subject: <b>One of my first MB posts</b>
body:
asked the question<br /><br />&quot;Was the Eye of the World wasted?&quot;<br /><br />At the time, all it seems to have accomplished was getting Forsaken killed (who came back anyway). This certainly presents a possible answer to that question. Interesting. I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="BLUE">Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />Excalibur's Mississippian <br />Druid's cute, dutiful, if pert, niece </font> </b><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-30 20:51:19
subject: <b>I think the EotW was drained because Rand used it up...</b>
body:
What he was going was tapping into pure, untainted saidin.  that way he could fight without seepinginto the yucky oily taint.<br /><br />I think so at least.  I may be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-30 22:43:38
subject: <b>Good but..</b>
body:
I like the idea that he got the idea to cleanse the taint from the Eye of the World but I think that he cancelled the taints out by putting them against eachouther and they did the same thing when they created the eye only with people not seperate taints.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-01 08:17:09
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure he figured out how to cleanse the taint through one of the questions he asked the Finns. No doubt the Eye covinced him that it was possible though.<br /><br />I don't really see how you can compare one taint being used against another to a taint being used against some people. I don't think the Aes Sedai did it the same way as Rand (or even that similar a way), had they, they'd have had to make themselves into an opposite evil to the taint...I can't see how they'd have done that.


created: 2001-12-01 15:34:59
subject: <b>Eye not wasted</b>
body:
...maybe it did help kill a few forsaken, but it did a few other things as well:<br /><br />1.  It allowed the Dragon Reborn to survive an encounter he most surely would've failed otherwise, as Moiraine and the Green Man were not enough match, by themselves, for the Forsaken.<br /><br />2.  It allowed him to counter a massive invasion of the Borderlands (this seems to get over-looked. If you want an analogy, think of Sauron's thrust at Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).  The Borderlands, as with any of the free nations, will of course play an important role, and Shienar would've been over-run without even a bump, as well as several others, perhaps. Cairhien and Caemyln would've been threatened as well, including the oh-so-important Royal Line of Andor. <br /><br />3.  It was the Repository for the Horn of Valere and one of the symbols hallmarking the arrival of the Dragon Reborn.  Consider all the Hunts for the Horn....very few places would be much safer from well-meaning meddlers who could've upset a great many things. <br /><br /><br />4.  It also allowed the Dragon Reborn to directly use Saidin for the first time safely, without being overwhelmed by the taint. <br /><br />5.  And lastly, in a side-effect, it allowed the Dragon Reborn to establish himself as a hero...a savior of the Borderlands.  Many False Dragons could be seen as trying to be heroes.  The only difference between some of them and Rand is that he IS the reborn Dragon.  One can't measure the destruction they cause, because Rand has out-destructed all of them.  Guaire Amalasen is not portrayed as 'evil', but as Artur Hawkwiing's principal opponent.  Hawkwing himself had more than a few skeletons in his closet.  Not all heroes are pure, nor all historical 'villains' evil. <br />


created: 2001-12-01 23:37:46
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
I always felt that Rand got the idea of how to clean te source on the other side of the twisted doorway.  I agree about your reasions on the death of the people who made the eye of the world, and SL as a filter though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-02 08:21:28
subject: <b>the doorway</b>
body:
I don't know how much information about cleansing the taint Rand could have recieved from the other side of the doorway.  Remember that questions touching the shadow are not good, how can you ask a question concerning the taint without touching the shadow if the taint is from a direct action of the DO?<br /><br />Also, Rand has a ton of things he has to take care of before TG, how can anyone be sure what his three questions were about.  If anyone knows any passages that they think might point to the questions he asked please respond, I would be very interested to try and puzzle that out.<br />


created: 2001-12-02 12:42:40
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
&quot;I believe Rand got his inspiration on how to clean saidin from the Eye of the World. He had to wonder how they managed to cleanse it, why were women needed, and why the procedure resulted in their deaths.  I think the reason they died is because they had no where to deposit the taint that they removed from saidin so they absorbed it themselves. <br /><br />I'm very drunk but - It wasn't tainted b4 they sealed the bore - it was the so-called counter-stroke - only cleansed by Rand eventually 2000 years later.<br /><br />&quot;Rand used Shadar Logoth as a place to deposit the taint that was removed from saidin.<br /><br />Saidar was used to make a filter of sorts that saidin was channeled through. Thats why it required both parts of the power to both create the Eye of the World and to cleanse saidin.&quot;<br /><br />This part I fully agree with - The taint and Mashy worked against each other just like they did with Rand's wounds - Evils opposing each other!<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-02 12:51:52
subject: <b>&quot; A moment of clarity&quot;</b>
body:
Five minutes later I think I know what you meant!  The essence of Saidar at the Eye was clean and they died without having anywhere to put the taint - Actually a brilliant theory and something RJ is capable of since he said he knew the ending b4 he started writing the series.  It's only when you read the series for the 2nd - 10th time u realise this - rather understanding theories written when your drunk!<br />


created: 2001-12-03 10:31:12
subject: <b>Not good</b>
body:
I know that questions concerning the DO and other related maters are not good things to ask on the other side of the doorways.  I also remember that the doorway was shaking itself apart while Rand was in there.  That may give some ideas into the types of questions he asked.<br /><br />Telvin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-03 12:41:49
subject: <b>&quot;He is another. The strain. The strain.&quot;</b>
body:
the doorway ter'angreal was shaking cos both mat and rand were on the other side at the same time.<br /><br />that's supported by what the finns say in mat's pov as well as by moiraine when she came out after our ta'veren.<br /><br />(tsr15: into the doorway)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-03 17:07:54
subject: <b>yes Rand did ask the Finn.....</b>
body:
We know this from his POV's, which let us know two of the questions he asked....in one POV, in I believe TPOD, he thinks concerning cleansing saidin that he had asked whether it was possible, in a place where he knew the answers to be true, and received a riddle for an answer....in another he thinks on his answer to suviving the Last Battle....&quot;if you would live, you must die&quot;...since obviously both these questions would have &quot;touched on the Shadow&quot;, how is that possible?  very simple.  He cheated.  He channeled a sword of fire.  As to the theory, just because Rand asked the Finn doesn't disprove it.  He might have combined the answer he received with Fell's comment and what he learned about the Eye to come up with his final plan.  I think it's a great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 11:42:49
subject: <b>Additional trinkets of information concerning theoried event</b>
body:
they said that people for miles, heck, all OVER, could see the funnely glow of the mix. but also, what was the paragraph long point of views from seemingly randomly selected people all over 'randland'? a carter in cairhien, the {wo(man) can't remember which it was...} on tremalking (i think thats the seafolk island....) and i think a few other around the world.... BUT WHAT WAS THE POINT?!?!<br />


created: 2001-12-12 11:19:21
subject: <b>Good solving</b>
body:
That is one of the best theories i have heard for a long time.<br />Thank u for allowing me to see this<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />religious leader of elpimpos&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Bringer of useless things in tough times<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Forever friend of Fair Angel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-15 16:09:53
subject: <b>Sorry - Rand got his idea from another place</b>
body:
I dont remember when, but Rand said he knew how to do it from the Aelfinn.  I'm not sure what book it is but I know it to be true.


created: 2002-03-11 17:59:30
subject: <b>Oops</b>
body:
Isn't there a possibility that doing this could taint saidar? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Then all the Aes Sedai would go mad! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Rand wouldn't be an angel anymore! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />He would look like a fool! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Aes Sedai would think he was evil! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />They would be mad! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-28 07:28:19
subject: <b>Opposing Evils</b>
body:
Rand's two wounds: One caused by forsaken, one cause by Fain's Dagger (The Mordeth evil). It's been said, a few times, that the two evils are duking it out, fighting eachother. Crap, if the taint on Saidin is DO related, and DO evil and Mordeth evil, well, &quot;hate&quot; each other.... Why wouldn't SL work to &quot;deposit&quot; all the taint that gets built up, and the two would counter act....<br /><br />A very powerful base will eat through anything, as will a powerful acid. However, when the right acids and bases meet, the result can have a balanced enough PH so that you could drink it safely..... While either alone would kill ya.<br /><br />But, that's depending on the fact that the taint would be considered a DO kinda evil, and if it would counter the whole SL greed/man-made evil. Just something to consider...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 09:32:40
subject: <b>Rands Visits to SL</b>
body:
I seem to remember that everytime Rand was in SL that saidin had and echo and was hard to control, like it was being pulled?  I didn't notice this until I read WoT a secondtime, but with the obvious importance that SL has on the entire story after WH I paid much closer attention.<br /><br />Lets remember as well that the Fin gave Mat very straight answers to his questions, but in the end not to the ones he wanted to ask, those sneaky russians.  Off memory he asked if he should go home to help the folks in the TR, the Fin answered that he must go to Ruidien.  Then he asked why Ruidien and got to die and live again, why, to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons... I would be hard pressed to to think Rand faired better.  <br /><br />So, I imagine that with Rand's experiences while channeling in SL and the 2 evils being drawn to one another and some far off direct statment/riddle from the Fin that he figured it out on his own.<br /><br />We all know that he is much smarter than the AS and Forsaken give him credit for, is it far fetched that think that he is smarter than even we give him credit for.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-20 20:22:00
subject: <b>hrmmmm do i have anything to say?</b>
body:
not really..... so, first ill waste some file space<br /><br /><br /><br />and now ill say good job<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And now ill get off my computer<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 10:38:16
subject: <b>What</b>
body:
There is no phrophacy saying that Rand will kneel to the crystal throne.  That is a Seachan perversion of a true phrophacy that has been changed to put their emperor/emperoress on top.<br /><br />Telvin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 10:46:23
subject: <b>Up until the part about Eggy and Elayne...</b>
body:
You had me. I can't imagine that those two would be happy seeing Rand leashed. Elayne especially,she doesn't give a fig about his subordination to women, unless by &quot;women&quot; you mean her alone. <br /><br />I also wonder what Elayne would feel if her Warder was leashed.  She can feel a lot of what he does through the bond, though he can mask it...  Can I get a ruling here?<br /><br />Egwene herself was leashed.  She would hate to see anyone, Rand especially, tortured like that.  If he gets leashed and his gaggle of women find out about it, Book 10 is going to be quite interesting!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 12:59:55
subject: <b>The theory brings up some interesting possibilities.</b>
body:
The theory brings up some interesting possibilities.  I still think there are a lot of other possible routes the series can take.  Any author, RJ included, delights in suprising the readers;  RJ has in many ways been successful at it, despite giving a number of clues.  Your solutions isn't too bad, but I have faith in RJ to come up with something even better.<br /><br />That being said it is still fun to speculate.  My pet theory includes something along the lines of yours.  <br /><br />Remember Egwene had a dream of rows and rows of AS in leashes attacking the WT.  Egwene dismissed it as a nightmare.  WHATIF it was true.  She had another vision with herself and a Seanchen I do believe and another with Mat she didn't believe was possible.  Combine that with Min's vision that Rand will be hurt by women who can channel (probably more than once, the first happened at the end of LoC) and Elaida's vision that Rand will face the Amyrillin and know her wrath and you have many dramatic possibilities.  <br /><br />WHAT IF the Halima influenced Egwene allies herself somehow with the Seanchen to attack the tower.  It would certainly be ironic and fitting with the tragic way that Egwene's thread is turning. (The more likely route is that Egwene takes control of the tower and Mesaana and Semirhage unite with the WT remnants and the Seanchen to try and retake the tower, but the other way is more dramatic IMHO)<br /><br />As far as Elayne joining with Egwene to subvert Rand, it may happen but I don't think so.  Elayne's first priority is probably Andor.  It is followed closely by protecting Rand and then by obediance to the Salidar hierarchy.  I am not quite sure where her loyalty to Egwene lies.  It would be quite ironic (with all of Elayne's moans and gripes about Galad choosing right above all else) that Elayne chooses the right thing that hurts Rand.  I just don't think that putting Rand under control of someone else is the right thing to do.  I don't think that Elayne will think so either.   Elayne not only loves Rand she admires his ability as a leader.  Even though she thinks he screwed up royally in Caemlyn-Rand did-she is continually defending him to the Wise Ones and Egwene and she admires his presence as a leader.  Elayne may 'betray' Rand but it will not come easily.<br /><br />I do like your explanation of Egwene clawing the AS symbols, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 17:10:14
subject: <b>You know what?</b>
body:
If Rand gets collared, I think that I'm going to go through a range of emotions. At first I'll be sad, then mad, then glad, then happy, and finally content. You know why I'll finish off content? Because It would be worth Rand getting collared for a book just to see him bring his wrath down on Egwene. I've been waiting for that since... well since the first time we met Egwene in EF. Rand is going to snap/lose it on Egwene, and I want front row seats!<br />As for elayne betraying Rand, It will only happen if, a mentioned above, Elayne feels that it is the right thing to do. Again, Smackdown baby!<br />Oh, and Egwene allying with the Seanchan? Fat fr!gg!n chance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 20:13:27
subject: <b>Random Thoughts</b>
body:
Interesting theory, though Rand being collared and that being okay is nuts.  Keep in mind, we just went through a monumental event in which madness will be staved off.  With Saidin as it was, tainted, it took years to erode a person.  Now it's either free or almost completely free, and we know/expect that events in the world won't last more than another year or two.<br /><br />Couple of random reactions:<br /><br />****Egwene is rapidly climbing my list of irritating people.  I like seeing her refuse to act the puppet, but to be so full of herself as Amyrlin Seat, when she got it purely because of manipulation and because people felt she could be used, is becoming boring and tiresome.  The Amyrlin Seat means precisely zip in comparison to the Dragon Reborn, and as intimately aware as she is of the circumstances, for her to fail to realize this is one of my major complaints with RJ.<br /><br />****I'm intrigued by Elayne's (and others) reasoning about going back to use the Oath Rods.  Simply, selfishness and greed.  She wants to live forever (or close to it).  She frets quite a bit about how being free of the Oath Rod allows the Kin to exceed all expected age.  What, 300-400 years in her effective prime isn't good enough for her?<br /><br />I wonder what her subjects (and political enemies) will feel about their seemingly ageless queen...<br /><br />****Lastly, I was going to go on about Moiraine and Tuon, but decided to submit it as a theory instead, so if you're curious, you should hope they post it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2001-12-05 00:43:44
subject: <b>a little support...</b>
body:
I know that the acceptance of Rand collared is a stretch the way I worded it but use your imagination. What if the agreement is to leash him in order to make him swear an oath on the oath rod that the girls think is reasonable? Plus the leashing doesnt have to be with torture and stuff, just a means to make him &quot;see reason&quot; as they see it. As far as Egwene agreeing with Tuon, I think it's inevitable and based on how quickly people in these books become friends from spending time together I could see it happening if it represented enough time passing (just look at Egeanin and her feelings about Nynave and co. from their time in Tanchico)


created: 2001-12-05 04:13:56
subject: <b>nothing constructive to say, but....</b>
body:
Your title, &quot;How Mat will save the day&quot; brought to mind a little monkey named George....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 08:54:01
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
...this theory is almost exclusively speculation, so I can't really definitely refute any of it, but I can give my views.<br /><br />&quot;Secondly, both Elayne and Egwene have been discussing the importance of Tower law and maintaining the Three Oaths.&quot;<br /><br />I believe Nynaeve has been far more adamant about folowing the Three Oaths than Elayne ever has been.<br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised if Mat does go to Elayne with the Band, especially if he hear's Caemlyn's under attack. After all, with Mat coming from Andor, it won't seem like the outside help she wouldn't want (from the Black Tower for example).<br /><br />&quot;Meanwhile Rand will have spent this time with his dad in the Two Rivers&quot;<br /><br />No way. Never. Or at least, not until the Last Battle is over. You think Rand has gone through all of this pain at having to leave Perrin to defend the Two Rivers against the Trollocs when he knew he could probably single handedly defended them, just to throw it away when his home isn't even under threat? Rand can't go home, staying away is the only way to protect them. Of course, that's not to say he won't be with his dad anyway. There's no way the Two Rivers haven't heard that Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn by now and whether he believes it or not, his dad will no doubt be searching for him.<br /><br />I would think it's more likely that Egwene's wrath will be because of his Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai into complete obedience and Rand's unwillingness to stop it, probably due to the fact that some of his Asha'man have in turn been bonded. The swearing of fealty to him from some of the Aes Sedai will no doubt annoy her, but surely not as much as the bonding will.<br /><br />I don't think we will ever see Rand go to Seanchan again. Nor do I think we will see a changing in their laws in the book series. I would think it's highly likely that the Seanchan will somehow be persuaded to side with Rand and perhaps they will stop putting new channelers into Adams, but I don't see how they could free all those damane, it'd just be too hard for them to handle. perhaps they'll try though.<br /><br />I'm not so sure the balancing scales thing hasn't already happened in the last book.<br /><br />I agree that the male Adam will be used and most likely on Rand. I don't think it'll be used in the circumstances you suggest though, if it's used by people in the Light, it'll be because Rand is mad and if it's used by the Shadow...well, that's what we're all hoping for right? A demonstration of how powerful Rand is against his own followers? There is no way that Egwene and Elayne etc will go along with this. I've been one of the strongest supporters of the idea that so many of the women in the books are incredibly annoying, including Elayne and eespecially Egwene, but they're not stupid. Both love Rand in their ways and whether they want to admit it or not, they know he is as intelligent as them if not more so. I think you're just going way too far when you say they want him to be subordinate to them. They just want him to be sensible and see the truth rather than what he wants to see.<br /><br />I hope that Moiraine's return might teach some of those who don't think Rand is that intelligent just how clever he is. She herself is an extremely bright woman, I have no doubt that she has figured out that even though and wouldn't tell her, he planned to capture a male Forsaken to teach him in the Waste all along. She herself has taught him Daes Dae'mar and he plays the game so skillfully already. One thing I do look forward to upon Moiraine's return is her discovery of all that he has accomplished. Everyone else is taking it as it comes, the DR keeps doing more amazing things, but she'll get it all in one big chunk, hopefully she'll be amazed. She may well find it hard to advise Rand anymore though, Cadsuane's around and Rand has realised that Moiraine was more a friend to him than anything else.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm going on a bit, there's not much more I can say about this theory, we'll just have to wait until the series is over for us to find out who's guesses are better, if anyone's.


created: 2001-12-05 19:01:50
subject: <b>The women</b>
body:
&quot;There is no way that Egwene and Elayne etc will go along with this. I've been one of the strongest supporters of the idea that so many of the women in the books are incredibly annoying, including Elayne and eespecially Egwene, but they're not stupid. Both love Rand in their ways and whether they want to admit it or not, they know he is as intelligent as them if not more so. I think you're just going way too far when you say they want him to be subordinate to them. They just want him to be sensible and see the truth rather than what he wants to see.&quot;<br /><br />Ahh...but they don't know he is as intelligent as he is.  One of RJ's most common and annoying problems is his massive stereotyping.  Almost ALL the primary women (and certainly the ones you mentioned) unfailingly think that men are pretty much fools.  Some consider them delightful fools, some consider them dangerous fools, even some consider them precocious children -- but from Eye of the World to Winter's Heart, they consider them fools who don't know enough to stay out of the rain, much less trouble.<br /><br />So yes, &quot;They just want him to be sensible and see the truth rather than what he wants to see&quot;, but they define the 'truth' as, basically, that which they believe in. And since men are fools, they can't comprehend the truth. <br /><br />Keep in mind, those ladies in question have no compunction about using various forms of compulsion -- power-wrought or otherwise (such as the Oath Rod).  They are entirely comfortable with telling people what to do and assuming they'll do it and since times are so dangerous and the stakes are so high, it is foolish of the world to leave salvation in the hands of a man -- a fool.  <br /><br />Another of my complaints is how the women always conveniently forget the fallibility of the Tower. Why, the very breaking of the Tower should give them reason to accept Rand's distrust of it, and when you compound it with the existence of the Black Ajah -- existence THEY helped expose! -- then for them to natter on about how Rand should place his trust in the White Tower is just pure idiocy. <br /><br />We have yet to see the fallout of the cleansing of Saidin.  Many of the policies Tar Valon and others have based their practices on are based on male channelers going mad.  If that's not the case; if the reason is 'removed'...then they have to adjust their beliefs, don't they?  And one of them -- Nynaeve -- can truthfully attest to the feel and foulness of the taint, and even perhaps WITH the use of the male adam, she can prove that it is gone (or so greatly diminished as to make it pointless before TG). <br /><br />Do any of you think there WILL be a change? Yeah, me neither.<br />


created: 2001-12-06 07:21:11
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
I suspect one of the running themes until we a actually get to the Last Battle will be the result of the cleansing of the taint. All those different cultures in the world will have to be told somehow, Rand's not going to let men be sent to their deaths just because they can channel when there's no taint anymore.<br /><br />You are of course right that many of the girls don't know how intelligent Rand is (which is why I'm hoping for a swift return from Moiraine, she knows if no one else does), but surely you don't believe they would ever feel that by capturing and and controlling him they can makem tings better. Well, ok, they probably do believe that, but who exactly is willing to do that? Elayne is a queen, Egwene the Amyrlin, Aviendha and Nynaeve aren't exactly great planners like the others and I there's no one else Egwene would trust with being in control of Rand. Besides, Egwene would never ever allow Rand to be put inot this Adam, not after her time in one.


created: 2001-12-06 09:38:48
subject: <b>Rand may get collared but..</b>
body:
I believe that Rand will be collared.  Yes the male a'dam being saved and held by darkfriends (Suroth does have it doesn't<br />she?) is classic Jordan foreshadowing.  But I don't think that Egwene and Elayne will stand for it.  Just like the earlier<br />post said, Elayne wouldn't want her warder (and lover) collared, and Egwene would want no one collared.<br /><br />Also while I do believe that Tuon will see channelers in a different light I don't think that she will be able to convinvece <br />the whole Seachan nation of that.  She may be the next in line for the throne but that kind of thinking would bring the <br />Seekers down on her in an instant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Roll the dice</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 10:09:37
subject: <b>uh-uh</b>
body:
Mat places his eye on a balance scale<br />he has to choose between two aes sedai<br />he has to give up &quot;half the light of the world&quot;<br /><br />As nice and as well thought thru as your theory is, you are forgetting one important point.<br />Elayne is not that important to Mat.<br /><br />Yes, he likes her, maybe even will eventually care for her like cares for Egwene,<br /> you know, kinda liek a sister, but she isn't &quot;half the light&quot; of his world.<br />Also, despite being a queen, she isn't half the light of THE world.<br /><br />I prefer the theory that he must choose between eggy and rand, they are important enough.<br />as much as it goads me to admit that Eggy is important *spits*<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 10:45:36
subject: <b>Rand</b>
body:
isn't Aes Sedai and while Mat obviously doesn't care for Elayne as much as he does for Egwene, he takes his promises VERY seriously, and he's promised Rand he'll protect Elayne.<br /><br />Mat's a guy in denial anyway and always has been. He cares for Elayne far more than he lets on, just as he cared for Moiraine. He says he's no lord but revels in that life style. He pretends to be hard, but he gives that starving woman a load of his money when he's with Thom. I don't think any of the main characters are the Aes Sedai he'll have to choose between.


created: 2001-12-06 12:54:57
subject: <b>Curious</b>
body:
It is curious that everyone either feels that Egwene and Elayne won't betray Rand or that they both will.  It is also curious the way people think that Egwene is still herself.  Egwene is heavily under the influence of Halima (her actions have changed dramatically) and will most likely continue to get worse for a while.  Until Halima is killed Egwene will be a large danger to Rand.  On the other hand, Elayne, while independent and capabable of betraying Rand if she thinks it is the right thing to do, is a very low risk to Rand.  Even if she underestimates Rand's intelligence (which I only thinks she does slightly, if that) she would still respect his right to make his own decisions.  <br /><br />As far as Egwene not aligning herself with the Seanchen.  She has more than one dream (that she dismissed of course) of her being allied with a Seanchen.  When combined with the fact that she is influenced by Halima (remember all those things Morgase did under Rahvin), who knows what 'Egwene' will do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 14:45:50
subject: <b>Could</b>
body:
you give an example of Egwene being under Halima's influence? It makes sense that she is, but so far I can't think of any actions she has shown that wouldn't have been considered quite normal after her sudden rise of power. After all, Rand isn't under anyone's influence but look how much he has changed with power from the boy we met at Emond's Field.


created: 2001-12-06 20:22:33
subject: <b>Egwene and the Adam</b>
body:
I think Egwene WOULD put Rand under the Adam, in a heartbeat, if the situations warranted it (to her). Remember, as much as she hated it before, she put Moghedien under it. <br /><br />It doesn't necessarily have to be betrayal, either.  What if putting him in the adam somehow protects or aids him?  Hard to think of instances, but him being under Compulsion is one.  What if he's shielded? Would the adam bypass that?  I don't know, and I don't think so, but these are just possibilities and there may well be others. <br /><br />Remember, one of her dreams had him begging her to kill him, and her readying herself to do so.  Maybe the adam is a way around that necessity. <br /><br />Maybe it's a way for two allies to succeed at channelling in Far Madding, when people don't expect it of them. Sort of like a human well.<br /><br />Maybe it's even a form of linking... We haven't seen a damane and a suldam both channel at the same time...perhaps the adam would allow that, and the two being able to be totally in concert. <br /><br />Egwene is climbing my list of annoying characters, but mostly because she is a GOOD character who's had a cruddy holier-than-thou attitude that wasn't warranted.  Even Siuan was more respectful of Rand as a person than Egwene (as Amyrlin) has been of him as the Dragon Reborn. <br /><br />Take away that factor and she's an extremely likeable character; one who has faced more than nearly all the others, who has bowed her head when needed, even when there was no promise of relief, and who has tried to get past the role of puppet thrust upon her.


created: 2001-12-07 04:47:30
subject: <b></b>
body:
Hmmm. I noticed that Vashti is often confused when it comes to matters of a technical nature. But her insight into characters seems to be sound. Maybe she could benefit from reading slower. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-07 07:07:32
subject: <b>Why Mat will go visit Elayne</b>
body:
Forget the logic behind the situation, Mat and crew will have to go to Caemlyn if for no other reason that a necessary plot contrivance.<br />Tuon can channel - she can train a damane as good as any suldam.  So when she gets to Caemlyn and sees what the Kinswomen<br />have been up to with the captured Seanchan, she'll have a big crisis of faith and come around to the mainland way of thinking.  Once we get<br />to that point, we'll see what sort  of Seanchan/Aes Sedai alliance can result.  I'd bet on Tuon acting as a peacemaker once things get bad with<br />trollocs running wild and everything out of control, but no sooner.   Look for the alliance in Book 12 or so.


created: 2001-12-07 09:15:34
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
She didn't exactly put Moghedien into the Adam, she was already in it and I'm pretty sure she would have found it a lot harder to use the Adam on the Forsaken if it hadn't already been on her. Besides, there's a massive difference between one fo the Forsaken and Rand.<br /><br />Surely no on here was expecting betrayal from Egwene to be a reason for the Adam being put on Rand anyway, were they? I've always imagined that the only way they would put it on him was either if he was going to destroy the White Tower for some reason or if he has gone mad from channeling so much tainted saidan. Of course, you have to remmeber that the risks for the two women who wear the bracelets are massive.<br /><br />Wasn't that dream you're talking about actually one of her 3 trials in those rings they have to go through to become Accepted? While there's a possibility it's showing something of the future, it's a lot less likely than than if it had been a dream.<br /><br />There's a bit of a dilema here. As much as we want Rand to sometimes tell these women what he has done or intends to do or show them what he can do to stop them in their tracks, it's actually showin his intelligence more that he doesn't. For example think back to Winter's Heart where Rand meets up with Nynaeve and she tells him that Egwene is Amyrlin Seat. She also tells him that there are 300 Aes Sedai with her and that his Asha'man wouldn't dare go up against that. Now this could have easily provoked many other people in Rand's place into bursting back with the number of Asha'man he has and how they're trained for battle and how in all likelyhood they probably could overwhelm the Aes Sedai. However, what advantage does this gain him? Shutting Nynaeve up for a few moments? Clearly revealing so much would be a stupid thing to do for something so petty, so Rand does the intelligent thing and simply replies &quot;You'd be surprised at what my Asha'man would dare&quot; (as he'd just been attacked by some of them). Now Rand can be provoked if the person doing it is clever enough, Moiriane managed to do it a couple of times (although I'm not sure she'd be able to anymore) and Cadsuane has. So as much as we want Rand to say things sometimes, it'd actually make him less intelligent to do so.<br /><br />My main complaint about Moiraine is that she seems to have some competition going against Rand that no one else knows about, not even Rand himself. Even when Rand totally overpowered her and Elayne with ease in Tear and she was forced to admit (to herself) he was stronger, she still couldn't admit how strong. She thought that Nynaeve could maybe match his strength! Hah, yeah right! It's like she couldn't admit that he was the strongest of those who came from their village or something. She won't admit how intelligent he is either, even after that time when she went to him to tell him to be well behaved in front of Elaida's Aes Sedai and he saw through what she seemed to think was the height of craftiness with contemptuous ease.<br /><br />I must admit though, ever since I read New Spring I have begun to give the girl's a new consideration. Just like Moiraine was, they've been thrown into ultra-important events before they're fully grown up so sometimes they still do foolish things. However, looking at how Moiriane tunred otu and how much she reminded me of Egwene and Elayne when younger, I'm sure if we got a glimpse of these two 10 years from now I'd like them a lot more....unless they die soemtime soon.


created: 2001-12-07 12:07:41
subject: <b>Reading</b>
body:
Seeing as how all my books have been packed up from a somewhat recent move for some months, it's not an issue of reading slower, but reading AGAIN.  <br /><br />and I'm a guy :-)


created: 2001-12-08 19:36:44
subject: <b>Mat and Perrin</b>
body:
I like this theory because I like Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But what part does Perrin is playing in your theory? It is foretelled that he has to help him twice, else the world ..blabla. So when Rand is kneeling to the Seanchan he will be rescued by Perrin....<br />But I doubt even that Rand will be kidnapped by the Seanchan. I think he will kneel of his own and this old Ladies will guide him to kneel. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />More trouble will make Masema and he&#180;s the guy where Perrin will help him out.


created: 2001-12-27 19:01:29
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
1.Moiraine is dead, otherwise Lan would still be bonded to her not Myrelle.<br />2.Mat won't ever betray Rand for any reason.<br />3.What makes you think Mat even likes Tuon? Never seemed to notice her much except after he found out who she was.<br />4.Mat will reconnect with the Band, but that army in murandy that is headed towards Caemlyn, you know the one that nobody knows which country it belongs to? thats a seanchan army.how else do you think Suroth knew about an army disappearing in murandy.<br />5.what also makes you think that Elayne and Egwene are the aes'sedai in the prophesy at all? i think it meant all aes sedai.<br />6.to give up half the light in the world means that he may have to let the Dark One have half the world save the world because, &quot;to win some, you gotta lose some&quot;.<br />7.Mat will arrive in Andor with enough time to defeat the Seanchan army, then he will be praised, gather some more recruits, and have Elayne and others make a gateway to Tar Valon to help Egwene out with the siege.


created: 2001-12-29 10:41:01
subject: <b>Mats Eyes</b>
body:
Why should not be Mats eye enough for giving up the half of the light of the world to save the world???<br /><br />He and Thom will go to the Finn. He to make the deal: His Eye for Moiraine (to give his eye shoul be enough emotions and pain to satisfy them) and Thom to betray them. Remember you can only win if you betray. Thom brings the Music and the Steel maybe he brings the fire to....  betraying is a difficult thing.<br /><br />&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot;


created: 2002-03-10 00:20:03
subject: <b>why mat's eyes?</b>
body:
why does it have to be mat's eyes? i think that kenny's suggestion makes more sense. <br /><br />and where the heck did &quot;Remember you can only win if you betray.&quot; come from??!?!?!<br /><br />has anyone even figured out how mat/thom might even be able to go back to the weird snake world??


created: 2003-02-12 12:14:04
subject: <b>no way!</b>
body:
I don't think it will be a good idea to leash Rand, you know how he became even harder after Dumai's Wells (LoC).<br />You can say that it was becouse they treat him bad, but Damane arn't well treated either, as you can see in tGH when they take Egwene as Damane.<br />besides, Elayne and Egwene will not let Tuon leash Rand!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 12:58:59
subject: <b>The aes sedai</b>
body:
I believe the two Aes Sedai are Teslyn and that other one, WhatsHerName.  He had to decide whether to free the one that was collered, or not to.  I do not remember which one was, but the one that was not, does not want the collered one to be freed.  There it is, he has to decide between whether to believe one or the other


created: 2004-01-10 16:37:10
subject: <b>Lott'a Thought</b>
body:
How Long Did you Spend on That Theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">What are the clouds <br />but an excuse for the sky<br />what is life <br />but an escape from death<br />	&quot;Kasagi Yabu&quot; James Clavell's Shogun<br /><br />I, am dying. I've been dying since the moment I was born.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 13:03:02
subject: <b>As good of a way of solving the dilemna as any.</b>
body:
We will just have to RAFO if thats the way that RJ chooses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 13:25:12
subject: <b>I dunno...</b>
body:
I agree with the statement that Aram is not a darkfriend at the moment. the thing is i believe he might change his way of thinking. If he adhered to the way of the leaf before but then went 'astray' whats to stop him not going even further next time. I just got the feeling that aram is going to do something  he will regret someday soon. Also i know there is another theory bandying around about Berelain and Galad getting it together eventually...but thinking about Aram what about him and Berelain???<br />I get weird vibes when i read about Aram like something is not quite right.<br /><br />Llandra <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Llandra<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Wannabe Naeblis&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-04 13:35:25
subject: <b>Umm...</b>
body:
Stands still except in battle, shows hardly any emotion at all...<br /><br />*cough*LAN*cough*<br /><br />Umm, right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I agree on the importance part though. Aram's going to live a bit longer and do something really important.<br />The Tinker Song perhaps?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 06:04:55
subject: <b>Aram's part in all this</b>
body:
I agree with Fenrar - Aram has something to do with finding the Tinker's Song. He's the only one of the tinkers who's had an ongoing storyline, and it's fitting that he will find it again, after going through this bleak and violent phase of his life.


created: 2001-12-05 09:03:18
subject: <b>He</b>
body:
could still be binded and discover the song.<br /><br />At the moment it doesn't seem likely that Aram would ever leave Perrin, but as you said he has to somehow (perhaps he'll die) and we know that love can do strange things to people, just look at Lan. If he falls in love with an Aes Sedai, a Green probably, I could see this happening. Besides, every other character in RJ's books seems to fall in love, unless they're old.


created: 2001-12-05 19:59:18
subject: <b>I like this.</b>
body:
I like this theory.  I can totally see Aram as a warder AND playing the other important roles discussed in the other blackboard posts.  Nice job everybody!<br /><br />Personally, I'd like to get to know more of Bode Cauthon myself.  I have a prediction:  She's gonna be a kick-(_|_) channeler, it's been foreshadowed.  She's got the spark in her, got the old blood.  Oh yeah, she's gonna kick.  I hope we get to see more of her soon.  Bode-Aram could work out well.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Logain in the membrane...Logain in the brain.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-06 09:52:56
subject: <b>Aram is a DF.Unshakeable Evidence.But I've lost it.</b>
body:
First, the sing.The only people who know what the song wa like are those who have been to Rhuidean.There is no <br />evidence that any of these people know about the Tinker's search for the song.How Aram would find out is beyond <br />my limited imagination.<br /><br />Second.I do not remember where the site is that says this is but there was a DF social somewhere in the U.S. a<br />while back.RJ himself showed up.He confirmed to those present that Aram was a DF.In fact he was surprised that<br />none of those present had worked it out.He thought (going by the prologue to tGH) that it was obvious that Aram <br />was a DF.


created: 2001-12-06 10:38:40
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
Aram found out about the Tinker's search for the song because...well, because he was a Tinker.<br /><br />As for teh prologue to The Great Hunt, I don't see how that proves he's a DF at all. It just proves that there are DFs amongst the Tinkers.<br /><br />Could you (or anyone) find this site as without it and RJ's comment, there's not much to go on. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a DF, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't too.


created: 2001-12-06 13:23:29
subject: <b>Could be...</b>
body:
..but isn't there something going on between him and sulin? (Or perhaps between him and someone else of perrin's aiels...)<br /><br />Him beeing together with one of the wise ones (who becomes aes sedai) is a possibility of course


created: 2001-12-06 15:49:33
subject: <b>My 2 cents</b>
body:
Aram the Darkfriend?<br />OK, first off I reckon Aram must be a DF. Remember the DF meeting early in the series where Bors spotted a tinker. How many other tinkers are in the story apart from Aram, tied with the visions of doom that people are having connected to him it seems kind of obvious. Otherwise, RJ is going to have to introduce another Tinker pretty soon and make him fairly prominent in the story so that he can cause some trouble. I can't really see this happening that quickly.<br /><br />About the song<br />Tinkers have always said they will know the song as soon as they hear it (it's in their blood, so to speak). I reckon Aram will play a big part in finding the song, I'm just not sure what that part will be.<br /><br />Aram the Warder?<br />I can see this being a possibility, but not sure about Bode, unless she gets more involved in the next book. I can see a member of the Black Ajah trying to bond him definately. The other alternative I can think of is Egwene, remember they had a little thing going when they first met. I know Egwene's besotted with Gawyn at the moment but who knows?<br /><br />His unhealthy obsession<br />It's ocurred to me that Aram's act of picking up the sword and his obsession with staying close to Perrin/Faile might be something other than loyalty/fanaticism. If he was the Tinker at the DF meeting, perhaps this is simply how he's carrying out his orders (whatever they might have been).<br /><br />One other point concerning one of Egwene's dreams:<br />&quot;Again Perrin; he turned away from a Tinker and ran, faster and faster though she called for him to come back.&quot;<br />I always thought that this meant Egwene was calling him back, then just today I realised I'd been reading this the wrong way and its actually the female tinker who's calling him back. Anybody have any ideas about who/what this refers to?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 03:29:26
subject: <b>Aram the Blademaster</b>
body:
I think Aram may be that legendary blade master... I mean, the boy has talent. The other suggestion that I heard was Galad... but Aram and Galad both have the whole look of dancing when walkin' thing going on.


created: 2001-12-07 09:23:38
subject: <b>I've</b>
body:
been convinced, I'm pretty certain Aram is a DF now. I also think he is one of the very clever ones, unlike those who like to think they're clever (Carridin). I wonder what his orders were though...it must have ben something to do with getting close to Perrin, but what purpose is he serving? He hasn't killed him even though he has had chance after chance and he hardly steers Perrin in any direction...the only thing I can think of is that he has been told to either keep Perrin alive for some reason or to not try and kill him unless he does something.


created: 2001-12-07 17:20:08
subject: <b>Can somebody please....</b>
body:
Point out to me the evidence that Aram is a Blademaster? I guess I must have missed that. Jearom? I have always leaned towards Galad in that role. Remember in FoH when Galad wastes like 25 soldiers who rushed Nyn and the Shinerians? I don't think that Aram is tha good just because he can press Tam back. After all, Tam hasn't even picked that sword up for about 20 years. Aram is good, but not that good. <br /><br />Also, where does it say that he is a DF?<br /><br />I guess I missed that, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 17:41:46
subject: <b>Wasn't their a theory/theories a while back...</b>
body:
trying to prove Faile was a DF?  Maybe this is why Aram won't harm him.  Maybe Faile, as a fellow DF, won't allow it. (I'm not saying that she is or isn't one though) Hasn't he been especially protective of her in this latter part of the series?  And hasn't Perrin fairly recently, in a POV, stated that he thought Aram was &quot;acting stranger than usual&quot; towards him? (or something like that)  Maybe there is a connection there...  Could this lead to another &quot;Ingtar case&quot;...from the shadow to the light kind of thing?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 21:00:47
subject: <b>Aram's orders</b>
body:
Nah, I reckon his orders would be something along the lines of stay close to Perrin, gain his trust then at a crucial point during the battle between light and dark either turn on him or more likely try and distract him by killing Faile.<br /><br />I could imagine that being fairly dramatic!<br /><br />...and it doesn't actually state that Aram is a DF, but then it wouldn't be much of a surprise if it did now would it? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 10:31:22
subject: <b>Blademaster?</b>
body:
I think Aram definitely is something special with a sword, he comes from a pacifist background, picks up a sword and in a few monthss became a near blademaster, Galad has been training his whole life so has had a lot more experience. Aram's acheivement is probabaly the greater one.  <br /><br />p.s. I think the Tinker at the DF social was more to show that there are DFs everywhere, not to cast future suspicion on Aram.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-11 13:03:37
subject: <b>Smells</b>
body:
I was just thinking of how Perrin can smell other peoples feelings. If Aram was a DF, should Perrin not have smelt something suspious around him? <br />And when Aram picked up that sword and his grandmother turned from him, according to Perrin Aram smelled lost. Very sad, and lost. Would a DF feel so about picking up a sword?<br />Not even a Tinker can believe the Way of the Leaf would survive the Dark One.


created: 2001-12-13 17:04:50
subject: <b>Compulsed</b>
body:
If Aram was under compulsion he wouldn't emit any odd smells and it would explain his obsession with Perrin and Faile.


created: 2002-01-31 16:29:32
subject: <b>Compulsion?</b>
body:
If he were under compulsion (it's been theorized that several characters, Min included, are under some kind of compulsion), he may not know what he is doing.  This makes him an unfortunate pawn of Shai'tan (or a Forsaken), but NOT a Darkfriend.<br />Anyway, I don't think Aram is a DF.  He is bloodthirsty because he is &quot;lost,&quot; but there really is no solid (or mostly solid) evidence that he is one.  He's got a lot of potential w/ his sword, and he really seems devoted to the Aybaras (Basheres?).  <br />Besides, I think Aram is a really interesting character, and it would stink if he went to the dark side. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-31 19:42:09
subject: <b>Remember</b>
body:
that Egwene is Amyrlin now.  Of the LT, at least, and soon the whole she-bang.  If Aram ends up as a Warder, I kind of see Egwene helping him along with it.  I don't think they've seen each other since EotW when she and Perrin ran across Elyas, but I'm sure they remember each other well.  And if anyone understands what it's like to leave custom and tradition behind for what they think is the best way, Egwene does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 01:24:53
subject: <b>The Aram Issue</b>
body:
I wont claim beyond a doubt that Aram is a dark friend; however, in TFOH Egwene has a dream of Perrin with Faile on his lap playing with his a beard and a man in a yellow coat standing near that she knows is a Tinker--everytime the Tinker steps near Perrin and Faile &quot;a chill of doom shoots through everything&quot; pg 214. Aram may or may not be a dark friend but it is clear that he has a major role to play and it will not be good for either Perrin or Faile.<br />


created: 2002-04-13 03:53:36
subject: <b>&quot;Doom&quot; Does Not Mean &quot;Evil&quot;</b>
body:
I realize it's been a while since anyone commented on this theory, but in case Blademaster of Disaster is out there watching, I have a thought or two on this issue.<br /><br />Although he has the makings of good Warder material, I doubt Aram will ever become one.  He is too loyal to Perrin, as many of you already said, and probably wouldn't pass the psych exam during his evaluation.<br /><br />As to the &quot;chill of doom&quot; Egwene sees in her dreams, I concede that Aram is a very dangerous person to Perrin.  He's just wound too tight, and sooner or later Perrin will dismiss him from service or punish him for his bloodthirsty ways at some time.  Then the boy's gonna snap and become a real threat to Perrin.<br /><br />However, this is NOT becuase he's a Darkfriend.  I'll admit having a loyal servant of the Dark in constant close proximity to a key ta'veren and a personal chum of the Dragon Reborn is a good place to put a chess piece, but I find it unlikely that any of the Forsaken or key Darkfriends would bother with him.<br /><br />Someone commented on his being used by the DO or a Forsaken with Compulsion against his will, making him an unwitting ally to the Shadow.  That I'd buy if we had evidence of Aram ever meeting with anyone or EVER doing anything except hanging around Perrin.<br /><br />Bottom line, Aram in neither Darkfriend nor future Warder.  He's just a plain ol' Tinker who popped his cork and will turn on his master soon.<br /><br />With the rescue of Faile (ahem, I mean the ESCAPE of Faile--she will DEFINITELY facillitate her own escape rather than wait for husband dearest to arrive) coming up, I forsee this as a potential time when Aram's hastiness with his sword will cause Perrin problems.  Let's wait and see (*rubs hands together in evil fashion<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Oh, and I also agree that Aram, while clearly talented at the sword (evidenced simply by the fact that he's still alive if nothing else), he's yet to earn the rare and special honor of &quot;Blademaster.&quot;<br /><br />Tootles,<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-30 01:23:13
subject: <b>Aram the Newest Darkfriend</b>
body:
I concur with the Darkfriendlyness of Aram.  as for the theory that Perrin could smell the stank of evil on him, has this happened with other darkfriends?  just wondering.<br /><br />who is to say that he is a darkfriend acting on orders, the Ta'veren pull might have made him chose his own dark path and then protected him from retribution from disobeying.  pehaps his evil will benifit good in the end?<br /><br />Song Shmong.  Aram will not find it, if anything he may try to destroy it.  he might have been placed amongst the tinkers for that very purpose.  Elyas is my choice for finding the song.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 10:19:43
subject: <b>CoT connection</b>
body:
Considering the info on the dustjacket of CoT about Perrin risking his soul maybe there is something to the Aram = DF theory. That could be how Perrin meets the enemy he will work with to get Faile back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-01 17:25:37
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
Since I don't really like Aram very much, I don't pay much attention to him. This theory is a clever one, though, and it would explain why Aram may become a threat to Perrin. Of course, there's still the consideration of Masema, too, so.... Well, at least we now have two interesting theories as to why Aram will become dangerous to our dear Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-<font color="gold">Sholyena</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />AKA <b><font color="blue">Yuna</font></b><br /><br />All hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />.... My most common gesture....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 22:39:58
subject: <b>Ogier, Aram and the Song</b>
body:
Ok, I know this is a long shot but I believe that Aram will be a crucial part to bring the Ogier together.  They pretty much live the Way of the Leaf.  But you really wouldn't want to piss one off.  So part of my belief is that he will bring the Ogier together and find the Song.  Oh yeah Elyas is Cadsuanes Warder because he is still alive.  If his Aes Sedai was dead he would be also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-12 03:12:10
subject: <b>Why can't Aram just be crazy?</b>
body:
Why does everybody think Aram is a DF?  I only see two things to support this:<br />1. presence of Tinker at DF social in TGH.<br />2. Egwene's &quot;premonition of doom&quot; dream.<br /><br />To refute:<br />1. there is no reason to believe that everyone noticed at that meeting is going to show up.  I recall there was a sea-folk MALE at the meeting too.  Should I expect a theory that Moad is a DF?<br />2. you don't have to be a DF to create problems for Perrin and Faile.  Being an unbalanced bloodthirsty teenager might be enough.  Personally, I think he's going to kill Masema, causing an undesired dust-up with the Prophet's followers.<br /><br />Just taken at face value, his abandoning the Way of the Leaf is similar to that of the Aiel from Rand's visions in Rhuidean.  It's a tragic story arc with many interesting possibilities as is.  He doesn't need to be a DF.<br /><br />Besides, there's too many stinking DF's already.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 08:26:50
subject: <b>Egwene Sedai</b>
body:
Well.. Atleast you have one point there, Aram will be Egwene's warder, don't they make a cute couple, almost like Nynaeve and Lan.


created: 2003-01-13 18:48:24
subject: <b>Galina's a DF</b>
body:
too bad galina is sworn to the Great Lord of teh Dark!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brutus de Petrovichski<br /><br />If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made of meat???<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-31 13:15:04
subject: <b>Aram = DF</b>
body:
From the style of RJ - hints and glimpses...<br />From the point of view of Bors we see one representative<br />of each of the unlikely characters to be a DF, starting<br />with Bors himself:<br /><br />Whitecloak - Carridin<br />Aes Sedai - Liandrin<br />Borderlander - Ingtar<br />Tinker - ?<br />All other characters were at least introduced. Which<br />leads me to believe that Aram is the DF Tinker in<br />question.<br /><br />The only sisterm anywhere around that could take him<br />as a warder would be Galina, but I find it highly<br />unlikely.


created: 2004-07-16 07:08:29
subject: <b>Aram the insane #^(&amp;$!</b>
body:
After reading COT i thought that the doom that Egwene felt was his madness, as someone else pointed out Aram is a &quot;bloodthirsty teen&quot;, and Perrin is a wolfbrother and one of the main plots with Perrin is his strugling to stay &quot;human&quot;. Now we all know Aram is insane, and Perrin is getting there in his hunt for his wife, I beleave that Perrin and Aram are feeding off of each others madness causing Perrin's grip on humanity to losin and we can see that he is close form his &quot;questioning&quot; of the Aiel at the end of COT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-19 12:04:44
subject: <b>Aram will find the Song</b>
body:
&quot;Yet RJ has hinted at a mysterious past for Aram, so I think Aram will at least live long enough for us to learn more about him.&quot;<br /><br />This alludes to a past he will learn about by traveling to Rhuidian and going through the rings to see the past of his ancestors and hearing The Song and knowing it for what it is.<br /><br />I think that the Tinkers already know The Song but don&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#226;&#8222;&#162;t realize it because The Song is a combination of many different songs just as the streams of Earth, Air, Water, Fire and Spirit come together to form weaves.  All dreams and references to The Song mention that many people were singing and usually a mix of races and species as well.<br /><br />The Wheel wants to bring balance and the power is unbalanced right now.  The One Power serves anyone, for good or evil, while the True Power comes from the Dark One alone.  So The Song must be the balance that serves only those of peace and harmony.  I&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#226;&#8222;&#162;m sure the song can only be used by those devoted to a life of peace as well.  Singing of the song doesn&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#226;&#8222;&#162;t mean that it will work for you.


created: 2001-12-05 00:14:38
subject: <b>Thinking out of the box...</b>
body:
Well, it sure was creative and new.  That's about all the positive I can say about it.<br /><br />Raserei's arguments are great, but try this one on for size...a weave of balefire strong enough to remove someone 3,000 years ago?  that'd be pretty crazy.  I don't believe even the Choeden Kal could help that much...anyway...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid<br />    May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-05 00:54:48
subject: <b>Is the size of the balefire relative to it's power?</b>
body:
If so, then that'd be one bigass weave of balefire!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 06:30:02
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
Though it is an interesting theory I don't think RJ will end it like this. because if this is done then like Raserei stated it will change history in such a way the recent events will never have happened. I thought about BF the DO but that would have even bigger consequences although it would be in keeping with the &quot;one of them dies so the other can live&quot; thingy from min.


created: 2001-12-05 08:24:16
subject: <b>HA</b>
body:
This would be pointless becuase then all of the books would be pointless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 09:09:06
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
That'd effectively destroy everything. How would Rand know that balefiring Cyndane would be the end of it anyway (incidentally, I suspect Rand will discover that the Forsaken are being reborn in other bodies because Cyndane won't be able to resist telling him how he can love no other as Lanfear did before trying to kill him)? Remember, Rand knows that it wasn't only Lanfear, but Beidomon (is that right spelling?) who bored into the DO's prison. So even if Lanfear didn't do it, Beidomon might well have found someone else to bore with him.


created: 2001-12-05 09:43:31
subject: <b>Mighjty YT</b>
body:
Wouldn't that just be RJ though?<br /><br />&quot;You paid for all these books, and they are technically obsolete.&quot;<br /><br />It would be an odd twist though.  You'd have a tale that never existed, and it would be the truth of how The Dragon Reborn saved the world, but was never reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 12:25:39
subject: <b>It would generate an insane paradox.</b>
body:
Mierin nevers drills the Bore with Beidamon, but the Bore, being one of those weird phenomen, is still open, even though that is impossible. Maybe all of Time would coalesce into one point, and Rand would indeed have Broken the World again, and destroyed most of the Aiel, because he would himself be a part of the past during the 1st Breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 18:03:45
subject: <b>Not mathematically possible</b>
body:
I'm going to make some assumptions here, so bear with me<br /><br />-With callandor, it would seem Rand is about as powerfull as 1000 men channelling at once<br /><br />-With the male choedan Kal, he's about as strong as 100,000 men channeling<br /><br />-Men and women linked are 10 times stronger than not<br /><br />-Rand linked with Nyneave using the Choedan Kal = 1,000,000<br /> men channeling<br /><br />-Let's say Rand busted Rhavin 3 hours back using an angreal that doubled or trippled his strength<br /><br />((3 * 1,000,000) / 24) / 365 = 342.46 years<br /><br />so if these assumptions are correct about the strengths invloved, I think that this is a pretty good estimate. 343 years is a lot less than 3000 years.


created: 2001-12-05 18:05:39
subject: <b>However</b>
body:
If Rand + Nyneave using Choedan Kal is as strong as 1 billion men channeling - i grant it's possible - then add a zero to the number above and it is possible.


created: 2001-12-05 18:19:52
subject: <b>I wouldn't</b>
body:
say men and women linked are 10x stronger than not. Certainly men and women linked allows greater things to be done, but I still think that just like when two women link, the One Power amount they can use is slightly reduced from the amounts they can do sperately added together. Of course, that just further proves your point.


created: 2001-12-05 19:50:11
subject: <b>Dark one doesn't break the wheel...</b>
body:
Rand does.  I don't even think he would have to necessarily do the what most of us have figured impossible (a powerful enough weave of balefire to erase 3000 years from the pattern), but he could cause a major, major hurting on it.  He balefires the hell out of somebody important (Lanfear, Ishamael...etc) or even himself, breaking the wheel of time.  <br /><br />Not that I think this would happen at all.  It just popped into my head.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  &quot;...Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai.  Logain.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-05 20:11:04
subject: <b>Absolutely Not!</b>
body:
If he did that the Geography of the world would totally change, most likely they would still be in the age of legends, Rand wouldn't be born, Rand's mother would be queen.............so many possibilities, Rand's whole purpose would be destroyed,  the pattern would instantly be destroyed. forever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 20:24:57
subject: <b>Yo</b>
body:
I based my 'men and women are ten times stronger linked' thing on something that Moiraine said in tEotW. I don't remember where is was, but Moiraine said something like men and women could do ten times as much linked as not. Nobody has ever commented directly in the series about how powerful men and women linked are, but Moiraine's comment is as close as it gets. <br /><br />Beside, I think that it makes sense. It kind of rounds things out


created: 2001-12-05 21:18:36
subject: <b>A Time To Die</b>
body:
Nice Title hunh. well anyways i think that the whole pattern could go to hell. But anyways all i hope is that rand Bale Fires each of the forsaken like that till we get asmo back. I MISS HIM!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> Bring Back Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 21:30:58
subject: <b>No offense</b>
body:
But that much balefire would burn the Pattern to shreds.  That would be a very baaaaaad thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Something in him flickered and died, he didn't know what.  Something.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 07:30:15
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Men and women linked may well be able to do loads more things than just women linked or just men seperately, perhaps that is what is meant by 10 times more.<br /><br />I don't think Rand destroying the Pattern in thsi way benefits the DO. Why it doesn't I don't know, but the Shadow stopped using balefire once they found out what it actually did. If it was going to breakthe wheel as the DO wants to, surely, balefire would have carried on being used.


created: 2001-12-06 10:00:02
subject: <b>Just assuming this could happen...</b>
body:
They'd probably reach a time in which Lanfear/Mierin did something that would eventually lead to Rand being born...<br />Which would mean that Rand would be wiped from existance before he could wipe out the part where Mierin and Beidomon created the Bore...<br /><br />Again, that's just assuming it was possible. The Pattern would probably fall apart LONG before they'd even get to wiping out the Bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 12:32:24
subject: <b>DragonAybara...</b>
body:
I know, it's one of my fav movies.<br /><br />Just going for effect. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 12:35:19
subject: <b>Fun with math</b>
body:
I like Rand al'Tor's post above.  This reminds me of the Drake equation (to calculate probability of intelligent life existing somewhere and being able to communicate with us.)  What is the longest balefire possible with both Choedan Kal's.  I got a similar answer another way.  Nynaeve drew more power than all the AS with all the Sa'angreal combined.  The amount of power the tower can max at probably can't be more than 10 to 100 times that of 1000 strong ASs.  Lets take the maximum at 100,000 Moiraine's for the entire tower's ability (I think this is high.  Most of the AS will contribute negligibly.)  Assumming Nynaeve was drawing 100 times this and multiplying by 10 (assuming male and females can somehow use the two halves to support each other by that amount.  This will give us 200,000,000 to 300,000,000 Moiraines.  Since Moiraine can balefire quite a bit less than Rand (Assumming 1 Rand = 60 Moiraines) gives 5 million Rands (5 times Rand al'Tor's) this is still too short.  (This assumes quite a bit, but most of the ways that this can be incorrect will give smaller numbers.  I would suspect, for instance, that it would get harder and harder to burn back longer and longer.)<br /><br />In the end, of course, it means nothing, but it is fun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 03:20:48
subject: <b>Just A Thought</b>
body:
Could Rand till be reborn? I'm wondering if LTT doesn't go insane, does it even matter? He still could technically be born, and just not have anything to do. Or, we know that LTT and Rand in essence, aren't the same people... maybe Rand is born without LTT?


created: 2001-12-07 21:32:22
subject: <b>hahah nice with this theory but...</b>
body:
as stated by several others that much balefire used w/ the Choeden Kal would unravel the pattern, and probably take out us readers of the series in our world.  Hmm maybe it would take me out of the Pattern far enough to erase the disasterous LSAT I took last Saturday.<br /><br />&quot;At least I'll leave a beautiful corpse.&quot;<br /><br />Torin the Chosen


created: 2001-12-09 02:26:25
subject: <b>Even if it WERE possible...</b>
body:
I'm thinking the mathematical calculations more or less show the answer. Kudos to whoever figured that one out! Besides that even if it were possible (which it's not, apparently) then Rand would erase Lanfear <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />, who wouldn't even become Lanfear, and also the entire War of Power, the end of the age, the Breaking of the World, the Trolloc Wars, the War of a Hundred Years, hence Andor wouldn't ever form, and by the way the whole Aiel breaking up thing wouldn't have happened, and not to mention THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY FRIGGIN' REASON FOR THE BLOODY DRAGON TO BE REBORN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> ......................... Okay, I'm better now. Sorry, nice try to the author of the theory, but none-the-less it was pretty self-evident if you sat down and figured it out that it won't ever (and I mean EVER!!) happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 02:28:50
subject: <b>post script</b>
body:
P.S. - Yeah, I know that was kinda harsh, but it had to be said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 10:22:38
subject: <b>The end?</b>
body:
Didn't RJ say he had the idea for the ending first and then worked backwards from there? If so this sort of messed up ending is exactly what we can expect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Nemo me impune lacessit<br /><br />&quot;I do not want my generals to be good, I want them to be lucky&quot;-Napoleon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> God is Dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-09 11:27:24
subject: <b>Ermm</b>
body:
I don't understand your &quot;logic&quot; God is dead. Firstly he never said he worked back from the ending, he simply said the ending was one of the first things if not the first thing he thought of.<br /><br />Secondly, I'd far prefer an author who's had an ending in his head all this time and therefore knows exactly how he wants to lead up to it throughout the series than someone who gets towards the end of a series and just tacks on some ending. That's when we should expect messed up endings, not when the author has known it so long that he can aim the whole series towards that ending right from the beginning. And there's no way he's been aiming the series at this ending.


created: 2001-12-11 01:09:53
subject: <b>About the ending</b>
body:
I think that at the end of the last book, the epilogue will be a 'flash forward' to the prologue of the first book. I mean, come on people! Time is cyclical! Everything that Rand does, he will do again in seven Ages (unless you buy that crap about him breaking the Wheel. Can you imagine that occuring to anyone in the series? This is the nature of the universe, Herid Fel in his wildest dreams never conceived the possibility). I bet, to drive this point home, the last chapter in the last book will be 'Dragonmount,' from The Eye of the World, WORD FOR WORD.<br /><br />Heh. When the beginning is also the ending, it's easy to come up with the ending first.


created: 2001-12-11 08:03:32
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I don't think you're really understanding the Wheel there. What you've said is that all the Ages are basically the same, ie the First Age, Second Age, Third Age...all have basically the same events happen in them. However, the actual truth is that all the 7 Ages in a turning of the Wheel are very different to each other and it's the corresponding Ages from different turnings of the Wheel that are similar. So the Third Age from one turning of the Wheel will have the Taint cleansed just as it will the next time the Third Age comes around.<br /><br />If you require some proof that you're idea is wrong, look at what has happened so far in this Third Age compared to the previous Second Age. The Taint has been cleansed in this Age, it wasn't last time. That's a major thing that would have to have been repeated, but it hasn't. i culd give you many more examples if you want, but it's kinda boring.


created: 2001-12-11 20:28:22
subject: <b>Re: Well</b>
body:
I don't think YOU understand the Wheel. You seem to be saying there is one one Age on the Wheel of Time. There are seven (hence the seven spokes). The Second Age is the Age of Legends. After Ages 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and then 1 again, we have the Second Age again. If there was just one Age repeating itself, how would &quot;memories fade to legend, legend fades to myth, and even myths are long forgotten when the Age that gave them birth comes again?&quot;<br /><br />Sorry if I sounded insulting.


created: 2001-12-12 06:54:40
subject: <b>Look</b>
body:
I said this: &quot;However, the actual truth is that all the 7 Ages in a turning of the Wheel are very different to each other and it's the corresponding Ages from different turnings of the Wheel that are similar&quot; and then somehow you manage to come to this conclusion: &quot;You seem to be saying there is one one Age on the Wheel of Time&quot;.<br /><br />I'm not sure how you managed to get there, but I never said that there is only one First Age, I said there is only one First Age evry turning of the Wheel.<br /><br />You're just contradicting your first post now too. You show that you do understand that the Wheel turns through Ages like so: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2..., yet you say that Rand is going to do what LTT did at the end of the Second Age. Now it could simply be that your first post was phrased badly and rather than this: <br /><br />&quot;Everything that Rand does, he will do again in seven Ages (stuff in brackets) I bet, to drive this point home, the last chapter in the last book will be 'Dragonmount,' from The Eye of the World&quot;<br /><br />you meant something more along the lines of:<br /><br />&quot;Almost everything the Dragon does is repeated the next time that Age comes round, so in six Ages time 'Dragonmount' will be repeated with the same major events only different people (as in bodies, names [therefore not LTT] etc, not souls) so the chapter will be repeated almost word for word.&quot;<br /><br />I hope that's it, that your post was simply phrased in a way that could be read wrong, otherwise you'd just be contradicting yourself.


created: 2001-12-14 02:25:49
subject: <b>Big whoops</b>
body:
Me: &quot;Everything that Rand does, he will do again in seven Ages.&quot;<br /><br />You: &quot;What you've said is that all the Ages are basically the same, ie the First Age, Second Age, Third Age...all have basically the same events happen in them. However, the actual truth is that all the 7 Ages in a turning of the Wheel are very different to each other and it's the corresponding Ages from different turnings of the Wheel that are similar. So the Third Age from one turning of the Wheel will have the Taint cleansed just as it will the next time the Third Age comes around.&quot;<br /><br />Oh, yes, totally. The thing is, you thought I meant the opposite of what I said. I suppose I wasn't that clear, but you ironically said what I was trying to much better than I did.<br />&quot;Almost everything the Dragon does is repeated the next time that Age comes round, so in six Ages time 'Dragonmount' will be repeated with the same major events only different people (as in bodies, names [therefore not LTT] etc, not souls) so the chapter will be repeated almost word for word.&quot;<br />That is precisely what I meant, except that I do mean EXACTLY. As in, cut-and-paste from EotW to book 13 (or whatever). There's really no reason for it to be different at all.<br /><br />To reiterate: You misunderstood me, I misunderstood you (I didn't even really read your post, and for that I apologize; it's just the &quot;I don't think you're really understanding the Wheel there&quot; that got to me. Sorry).


created: 2001-12-14 12:18:46
subject: <b>Well, how about this then?</b>
body:
Instead of Rand using BaleFire on Cyndane, what if he used it on the DO's prison, or on the bore, so that the bore never occurs?  <br />And let's not get into any mathematical formulas to prove this wouldn't work.  This IS a work of fantasy, after all.


created: 2002-01-07 13:50:24
subject: <b>The maths works out fine.</b>
body:
Rand al'Tor's calculation reckoned without Callandor. 342.46 years times 1000 makes 342460 years, which speaks for itself. Even if this is flawed, what's to stop another 12 Aes Sedai or Asha'man joining Rand and Nynaeve in the link? With the help of Egwene, Elayne, Moiraine (if she comes back), some strong Asha'man and anyone else they can find, they could easily get enough power to balefire the Dark One himself. Never mind the possibility that Elayne could make another access <i>ter'angreal</i> for the female Choedan Kal.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-08 22:29:39
subject: <b>?????????</b>
body:
damn good thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />but as they say it would unrave the pattern<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Bob, the Happy Vampire   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />=</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:55:39
subject: <b>raserei is right...</b>
body:
if rand did that... robert jordan would totally start from scratch... now why would he do that? i dont think rj would use something that involved temporal time manipulation... that kind of thing ruined movies... &quot;planet of the apes...&quot;, its just too complicated to comprehend stories that involved time manipulation... right??? <br /><br />loopholes... there would be loopholes in the story that happened... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 22:01:50
subject: <b>You know what I think?</b>
body:
Balefire is like a nuclear bomb, sure, it gets stuff done, but then there's the things like radiation(tearing up the pattern worse than you meant to, accidentally killing an ancestor somehow) that you really don't expect.  Too many nukes causes the apocalypse, ditto with too much balefire.<br /><br />On second thought, someone call RJ and ask real nice if he'll resolve this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Rillion<br /><br />&quot;Freemasons run the country&quot;<br />-Germs on Smithers' face</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 10:56:26
subject: <b>We don't know anough about balefire.</b>
body:
I agree with the main theory that to remove the bore, Lanfear has to be balefired, which is per Herid Fel's idea and the whole concept of the Wheel of Time. Otherwise Rand will have to come up with a new ability to remove both the seal and the bore, unlikely but not impossible, I suppose. But the effect that the balefire would have, and how much it would take, relies only on RJ. Since we don't know what the Fourth age comprises, only that it exists, so something positive happened. But remember, the end of every age seems to have apocalyptic overtures and the pattern rewoven seems to fit this idea. Also, it would remake the world as it was during the second age, also according to the requirements of Fel. This does seem likely occurance.<br />     Sidenote to people who think that the rewoven pattern will null the whole series; if Rand just reseals the bore, then we could end up with a repeat of the series with Rand in the place of LLT. <br />


created: 2002-08-22 06:57:55
subject: <b>Thanx</b>
body:
As the author of above mentioned theory ( I changed my alias) I thank every one for their opinions.  It was actually my very first theory posted.<br /><br />Keep looking, I'm working on the next one.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  Lord of the night  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />    Vanquisher of evil  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />           Paetar<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-31 18:44:13
subject: <b>just to clear a bit up</b>
body:
One person said &quot;balefire the DO&quot; (para), but you can't do that, I'm fairly sure, because the DO has no thread.  He is, as they say, &quot;outside the pattern.&quot;<br /><br />Another person mentioned BF the Bore.  You can't BF a place or thing as far as I know.  I don't know if everyone else just dismissed these people out of hand or not, but I just thought I'd let everyone know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-09 08:00:20
subject: <b>The GRANDFATHER EFFECT is why this won't work!!!</b>
body:
If lanfear was removed before she broke open the prison, then everything following that would cease to exsist, INCLUDING all the 3,000+ years of trouble that lanfear caused, which caused Rand to be prophecised, which caused him to use balefire. More importantly if she never broke open the prison how could he be there to balefire her, as she never did anything...... and so on and so on: THE GRANDFATHER EFFECT!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your Soul is Mine!!!  MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-15 19:31:54
subject: <b>Side Effects...</b>
body:
If Rand Balefires Lanfear (aka Cyndane) then he will change everything, Moiraine would still be alive, Lews Therin would never have love Lanfear etc etc. Everything that Lanfear had ever done would be undone... I think the paradox would be too much to handle, all those people she killed coming back?


created: 2004-02-28 16:52:58
subject: <b>Not Gonna Happen</b>
body:
At the risk of sounding redundant...  This is NOT gonna happen.  RJ has said himself that the Wheel of Time series is part of a cycle and that we can imagine that it is our past or our future - literally.  Therefore, he means that the Wheel is NOT broken, especially if it is our future.  Also, RJ has explicitly said that the amount of balefire to accomplish such a thing as killing the Dark One or balefiring someone back to the Age of Legends would destroy the world and is IMPOSSIBLE!<br />So, I mean, c'mon!  Read what RJ has said before posting a theory that's already been done and disproven by the Creator himself!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-31 03:06:53
subject: <b>Havoc</b>
body:
There's enough iffiness about balefire erasing a few seconds, a few minutes.<br /><br />You are talking THOUSANDS of years. True, Lanfear's been sleeping, but she was pretty active in the recent past, no?<br /><br />It boggles the mind to think of how erasing so much from the Pattern will affect the world. Actually, that might be how Rand breaks the world again. But I don't think that he'd ever dare.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 02:28:49
subject: <b>Prophecy?</b>
body:
One - you can't balefire the bore as it is a hole in the pattern/hole in the dark ones prison. You bale fire a hole and you just make the hole bigger.<br />Two - you can't balefire the dark one cause he doesn't have a body to balefire - he's basically a force of nature<br />Three - you balefire lanfear and undo the dark ones escape, you undo the war of power, you undo the breaking you undo 3000 years of history - yank that hard on that many threads in the pattern its gonna unravel.<br />Besides, what about the 4th age prophecies we keep getting tossed at us at the start and end of books. If the dark one never breaks free, the world never breaks and the dragon never gets reborn to fight Tarmon Gardon (sp?). What do all the fourth age historians have to talk about then?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-20 10:12:18
subject: <b>Good Idea</b>
body:
It was a good theory, i dont really agree with it as plausible, BUT, if Lanfear was balefired, it wouldnt be 3000 years, since the bore is outside the pattern, wouldnt it only have been a couple years? cause balefiring lanfear would take her out of the last 2 yrs of the 3rd age, and the pattern would skip right back to the sealing of the bore because lanfear wasnt part of the pattern after that.


created: 2001-12-05 04:23:58
subject: <b>Sounds like what happened at Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
Fight the Shadow by being worse than the Shadow. Just a random, late at night thought, but what if the third face Rand sees is supposed to be blurry? What if being worse than the Shdaow turns him into something like Mashadar? (is that that gray gook?) Ewww, icky fog Randman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />    BTW, first post!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 04:26:04
subject: <b>Mashadar is the misty stuff...</b>
body:
But he would be Mordeth, the guy who esentially made Shadar Logoth what it was with his &quot;Trust noone&quot; sermons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 04:56:53
subject: <b>Not Mashadar itself...</b>
body:
something LIKE Mashadar. That way we avoid the whole Rand/Fain/Mordeth/Mashadar/Lews problem. Just a random thought. Comes of staying on this site for two hours late at night with nothing else to do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 08:26:25
subject: <b>Ban lifted</b>
body:
Didn't Moridin lift the ban on killing Rand at the end of Winter's Heart? He wanted them to stop Rand from cleansing saidin at all costs.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-05 09:21:09
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
It doesn't make sense. Why would the DO allow Rand to defeat him? He'd still be defeated and Rand would rule in his place.<br /><br />I'm almost certain the Moridin has figured out that Rand can't be killed yet, the Pattern will use his ta'vereness to keep him alive. That's why he tells the other Chosen that they are allowed to kill Rand...if they can. He probably feels that the DR can't be defeated until the seals all break, then the DO's own luck can come into play.<br /><br />I think Moridin is still devoted to the DO and his comment about controlling both sides is simply that he has for 3000 years set the Dragon Reborn's path (after all, it was he who convinced Hawkwing to send the ships across the sea which has resulted in channelers who appose Rand returning) and he's still doing it as best he can.


created: 2001-12-05 11:42:08
subject: <b>It`s natural to become hard when you are going to ruin the world....</b>
body:
Rand is going to go mad and kill his nearest, nearly destroy the Aiel etc.  Then it`s not strange to try to prepare your mind for it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord Captain Commander Crossbow, <br /><br />Watcher of the Wheel  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br />until his Heart is Cold as Steel <br /><br />&quot;Of history we learn that we learn nothing of history&quot;<br />George Bernard Shaw<br /><br />&quot;What was is what is, and what is is what w</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 12:22:06
subject: <b>Although Moridin said Rand could be killed...</b>
body:
it is a good idea, and might be implemented later. This theory's idea, I mean. It would work, even.<br />Cadsuane is neat! *agrees with Raserei*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />~</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 19:41:55
subject: <b>&quot;What's my motivation?&quot;</b>
body:
Nice Job, el'poster.  New, interesting theory.  I totally agree that this is a plausible resolution.  And I agree that this could be the possible motive behind the actions of Moridin/Ishamael.  I have to side with Three in a Boat, though, I don't think it would be Shai'tan's best way to win, though.  <br /><br />However, I think Ishy plays his own game quite often...who knows?  I think the Betrayer of hope who calls himself Death is a much deeper and worse enemy than he has  been presented thus far.  But I'll save that for a new day...Anyways, great job!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for President!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-05 21:35:56
subject: <b>However</b>
body:
There is a theory that says that Rand can't be killed until Tarmon Gai'don when everything hangs in the balance.<br />I think Moridin wants the other Forsaken to kill themselves trying to kill Rand.<br />Thus so, he's dwindling the competition for after and during Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Something in him flickered and died, he didn't know what.  Something.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 21:57:16
subject: <b>I don't think</b>
body:
that the Dark One would allow Rand to grow into an evil apart from him (ala Shadar Logoth), because although it might make things bad for the rest of humanity, he would still be the enemy of the Dark One, and the Dark One doesn't really care what happens to anything else unless it benefits him. Having Rand spread chaos might suit him, but he would want Rand to serve him first, since I doubt the DO would settle for _indirect_ control of the world - he has too much of an ultimate power complex for that... Good, original theory, though.<br /><br />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-05 22:11:00
subject: <b>Nice Idea, but...</b>
body:
...how would the DO know exactly how to make Rand hard? The only way would be to have someone EXTREMELY close to him.  Not even a Darkfriend Maiden would know about his list of women; to my knowledge, only Perrin knows that.  The DO might not mind making Rand that hard, but he'd mainly be shooting in the dark as to how to get there.  This would probably just be a fallback plan, because Three in a Boat is right; it's not the best way to win.  It's the best way to cover your defeat, which is what &quot;playing both sides of the board&quot; could mean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 13:32:58
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Nice thinking, and I totally agree.<br /><br />(btw, &quot;WoTworld&quot; is MUCH better than &quot;Randland&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-06 14:34:54
subject: <b>Hmmm... Moridin's own game....</b>
body:
The rest of the forsaken really haven't figured out the game yet.  They are all playing their own games, while only Moridin, Shadar Hadan, and Shaitan really know what's going on.  Sure Moridin can say to kill Rand when he knows they'll all fail, he's just keeping them busy.  There is a much deeper game of trying to turn Rand going on here, and it's been going on since creation.  All the little schemes the forsaken have hatched are not really going to amount to anything that will keep Rand from the Last Battle. If Moridin can alter events or turn Rand to the shadow then he'll have succeeded at his true calling.  He's been trying to turn Rand since the first spinning of the wheel.<br /><br />But back to the forsaken, I'm reminded of a game my highschool history teacher taught me, it was a drawing game that you couldn't take you pencil off the paper to draw a house without crossing the lines.  Essentially you have to cheat to win.  The diabolical part of the game is that you can almost always win by simply drawing but it is, in the end, impossible.  You mind keeps itself occupied with a goal that is unattainable, unless you think outside the paper.  Exactly what Moridin is doing with both Rand and the Forsaken.... he's so deliciously evil *sigh*<br /><br />Torin the Chosen


created: 2001-12-06 15:01:05
subject: <b>Haha @ Torin!</b>
body:
Yeah, Moridin's my dream enemy too.<br /><br />I get quite anoyed when people say that Moridin sin't an exciting enemy for Rand anymore, owing to the number of times he's beaten him. It's just not true. The first two times rand faced Ishamael, the Betrayor wasn't trying to kill Rand, he was still trying to turn him. Then, the next time they fought, Rand had Callandor! There has never been an even fight yet between the two where both are trying to kill. Plus he's even more dangerous now, for the following reasons:<br /><br />1. He has a new body, so Rand won't recognise him. In fact, if he does it'll probably result in Rand being relatively friendly towards him, as he may well recognise him from Shadar Logoth and remember how he helped. So Moridin almost certainly will be able to strike first.<br /><br />2. He uses the True Power. Not only does Rand not know about this other power, he also cannot sense it or see weaves coming. However, Rand can only use the One Power which Moridin will be able to detect. that's a massive advantage to Moridin.<br /><br />3. Given the fact that Demandred was only slightly weaker than LTT in power and Ishamael was the strongest of the Forsaken, I would think that Moridin is basically the same strength as Rand, although possibly stronger as I don't see how Rand could have reached his full potential yet (perhaps he has jumped up in strength massively since channeling so much saidan when cleansing the taint).


created: 2001-12-07 15:55:31
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
with this theory. It makes sense. My thoughts are this:<br />Rand is too 'soft' in his head (hates to kill women, hates to hurt people, hates to do everything he has to) to willingly turn into something that he knows is evil.<br /><br />So far, I don't think he has done anything that could be openly called 'evil'. He even stopped hte killing at Dumai's Wells. <br /><br />What I agree with though is him getting too hard. If he gets too hard, he will break, as I believe either Cadsuane or Sorilea pointed out. If he breaks, he will be useless, and the Dark One will win. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 21:27:48
subject: <b>Oh yeah Three..the Rand vs. Moridin grudge match fight of the century.</b>
body:
You know it's coming, Rand and Moridin, mono e mono.  Moridin will decide it's time to really kill Rand because he won't turn, so they'll fight, no angreal or sa'angreal, both at the peak of their powers, in a knock down, drag out, no holds barred, groin kickin', hair pullin', Power word Killin', ear poppin', chin diggin', finger bitin', Nynaeve glowerin', sand in the eyes, suckerpunchin', chair over the back, spirit shieldin', balefirin', you killed my father, no I am you father, Channelfest that will leave me violated and breathless, beggin' for more. I'll sue RJ for the excitement based heart-attack. I just hope HBO picks up the fight.


created: 2001-12-08 07:19:55
subject: <b>So what</b>
body:
I think it would be neat that a bad guy wins, in all other fantasy the world is saved, everybody gets married and mass produce children (4-10) and i hate this in all fantasy, i would like some kind of new finish to the fantasy books.<br />I like Rand now that he is hard and strong, not weak and phatetic, even though he is weak to his women and i don't mean like that, he is weak to them by letting them controll him, the most powerfull man in the world. <br />I wouldn't like him to become a weak good-guy. If he  takes over the world and rules it with an iron fist then it would be something new and cool.


created: 2001-12-12 13:36:18
subject: <b>Well Joko</b>
body:
That's what happens in reality too. People grow up, get married, and mass produce kids.  Sometimes even in that order.  All your high school friends do this, all your college age friends do this.  In fantasy it's just a little more... well, fantastic that that's all.<br /><br />BTW, good post on Rand.  That's something orginal and well thought out. Way to go!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-20 11:28:47
subject: <b>The More I Read On This Site...</b>
body:
...The more I see things that hold shreds of what I was thinking, and improve my confidence in some of my anticipations/theories on the books.  I believe that when Moridin said &quot;...it's hard to lose a game when you're playing both sides of the board..&quot; he meant that he had pieces (players/followers) on both teams, the Black (Dark) side and the White (Light) side.  We've already seen that characters thought at one time to be friends or allies are infact working secretly for the Shadow. (Or being manipulated unwittingly.)  I also think a lot of people over-simplify the intents of the Dark One.  He may have commanded &quot;I want Al'Thor alive to serve me as Nae'Blis..&quot;, but he has also told the Forsaken that the last one left standing (or the one that helps facilitate his return to the 'real' world) will be exalted and stand at his right hand.  I think the Dark One is playing the Forsaken just as much as the Forsaken play the witless Dark Friends and henchmen.  The Dark One KNOWS that Rand, if he could be turned or made into the 'heart of stone' (stealing a quote from the books there), that he could serve best as the Nae'blis.  But this does not mean that it rules out anyone else, if Rand wouldn't turn, or failed to be deceived then another would have to step forward.  This is the thread of hope that the Forsaken (even Moridin) cling to.  <br />That somehow, some way Rand will step wrong and fall out of the masters plans (the Dark One) at which time they'll be allowed to pounce on him, and gain status themselves.  (This I beliee occurred in Winter's Heart, when Rand went to clean the taint.  You notice how ALL the forsaken dropped the gloves, and came out swinging?  Rand did something ENTIRELY unexpected, and stepped outside the guidelines the Dark One wanted to happen, so the Forsaken now will be allowed to openly challenge Rand.  I anticipate MANY head to head confrontations in the books to come.)   Buckle up folks, at the 3/4 mark of the series, we've just been given a glimpse of the deception that RJ has woven into this epic tale.  I imagine one of the more liked characters in the series will turn out to be, if nothing else a Darkfriend but more likely, a Forsaken.


created: 2001-12-29 06:39:24
subject: <b>You hit close to the nail but banged your thumb, in my humble opinion</b>
body:
I think that it is obvious that the dark one does not want to kill Rand, and he never has seriously tried. The problem with your theory is the why question. Why go through all the trouble of setting up these events just to harden up Rand? The DO is not looking for a replacement. Obviously the dark one would like to see Rand on his side but in this scenario he isn't really. I don't view the dark one like the devil. His ultimate motivation isn't the spread of evil, although undoubtably that doesn't bother him. His goal is to get out of the prison he has been put in and to re-make the world in his image. So how does Rand's no longer being the light's champion help him acheive this goal? Another thing to consider is the seals. If your theory were to be modified so that Rand's turning from the light and effectively becoming the shadow's champion were what was making them weaken, Why does this happen before Rand's transformation.


created: 2002-01-05 20:31:38
subject: <b>Agreed.</b>
body:
Joko is right, why couldn't the WoT end with Rand controlling a large (not all i guess) part of the world? <br /><br />Wouldn't it be cool to have a real hero as ruler, the more if he continues on his harsh way of treating the nobles of Randland :==) would be sooo cool.


created: 2002-02-26 00:15:23
subject: <b>Moraine</b>
body:
If Moraine is rescued, the hardness Moridin wants from Rand may all come toppling down. If she is at the top of his list every time and she forgives him, he might be able to forgive himself. Not only that but I do believe that Rand will jump in power, make a huge leap after cleaning Saidan to the point where it is beyond terrifing... where rather then a male channeler looking at him and feeling a inferno, it becomes like staring into the sun.<br /><br />If you look at the way Lews Therin died, a white hot shaft of pure light enveloped him... and created Dragonmount. That much power, could Rand soon be capable of doing something like that? could Rand be more powerful then LTT in the long run because he rose to power so much quicker?


created: 2002-03-15 16:22:29
subject: <b>How bout this:</b>
body:
Look guys, when Rand is memorizing all the names he's doing it like this. LTT is memorizing the names and that's why Rand can remember them,the names will be used to feed into the &quot;Flame&quot; during the void. look for this to happen at the Last Battle. So LTT has these names and after Last Battle LTT is gone (dies) and Rand takes over. The theory on LTT destroying the seals is valid because the Seals need to be removed so Rand can fight the Dark One's champion...<br /><br />Also the Dark One cannot kill Rand. If the Forsaken do Kill rand then the Pattern would basically hit a pothole. Now this would be GREAT for the DO but the Creator would get an advantage because the DO had a short advantage. Maybe this will happen:<br /><br />Rand get's killed(NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)<br />DO is all happy cause he wins<br />Creator is like &quot;Hell no! Cheater Take this!&quot;<br />Rand is Resurrected with the True Source and LTT returns<br />Moridin and Rand Fight<br />During the battle Rand mixes True Source and Saidin and balefires the hell out of Moridin....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> =  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> = BladeMaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> =</font><p></p>


