# w_comment

created: 2003-05-30 23:25:39
subject: <b>great theory but......</b>
body:
i think cadsuane is one of the forsaken. She tells rand about callandor lacking the buffer.... but i thought everything about angreal sa'angreal and ter'angreal was lost?


created: 2003-11-26 22:53:36
subject: <b>my 2 cents</b>
body:
I think that it is obvious that the voices do teach them about the one power.  I mean how many times has Randy boy leanred something life saving from &quot;Lews Therin&quot; and buying into the theory that everyone is someone else reborn, then who is to say that every channeler is not some other channeler reborn?  The idea that it might be a ter'angreal might be a little far fetched, but it is the best one.  Even Osan'gar(spelling?) as Dashiva seemed to know soemthing about the voices, I do believe that Cadsuane made some remark about the voices.  She does knwo alot about male channelers, so the idea that she is a member of a line of sisters seems very likely.  I really hate that I can never goto a signing, I have to live in the middle of nowhere.


created: 2004-09-07 22:13:19
subject: <b>cadsuane's angreal/ter'angreal</b>
body:
Cadsuanne got her hair ornaments from an old wilder who trained her. She had to &quot;earn&quot; the ornaments, one by one. I really want to know more about who the wilder was and why she was more knowledgeable than the tower.<br /><br />Also, here's something I've been wondering about all along...if you are a girl born in Far Madding, how do you find out you can channel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-04 17:59:57
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Great theory, even if I don't think it's true.  You pulled a lot of facts from the text, and it was definitely creative.  Kudos!


created: 2009-03-08 22:51:53
subject: <b>good effort</b>
body:
I think that you put some good stuff in the theary.I dont on the other hand tyhink that it is very plausable.<br /><br />#1 I think that Far Madding is just a Level playing field for men and women AS.A place to be were they would not feel threatened by one another.<br /><br />#2 Would it not be more likely  that if men did create it, it would a place of protection for the Dragon.It would be nice to know who was chanaling and in what derection even if you could not chanel yourself ,but I think it more likely that if it was created by men it could be beaten by men.<br />  #3 I just dont think so.But who really knows?


created: 2002-07-14 23:09:50
subject: <b>Queen Berelain of ?????????</b>
body:
Interesting that Amadacia now has no King or Queen and no nobility of any worth.<br /><br />Tylin &amp; Beslan made the comment about the Seanchan wanting Tylin to become Queen of all Altara and more besides. <br />&quot;More besides&quot; - I think they mean to make her the (albeit puppet) Queen of next door neighbour Amadacia. <br />But good old Beslan is planning an uprising for a month after Mat escapes. I'm thinking Beslan's head is headed for the spike on the walls of Ebou Dar and unfortunately Tylin's will soon follow.<br /><br />Who could replace the late King and Queen of Altara and Amadacia? A Peandrag of course. And Berelain is headed south and may meet up with Rand's enemy (the Seanchan) very soon.<br /><br />This also effects the Perrin the King formula:<br /><br />Perrin and Faile = Saldaea and Manetheran<br />Perrin and Berelain = Manetheran, Altara and Amadacia.<br /><br />All guess work of course. But 'glimmers' may give us the truth.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-14 23:24:41
subject: <b>mat too.</b>
body:
i agree with the idea of berelain shaving her hair. i also think she'll marry galad and in doing so become queen of cairheiren ( i might get around to writing a theory on that on day ).<br /><br />i also think mat will become a skinhead. the only bit of evidence for this is when perrin is thinking about his new beard in SR and thinks that mat would never stop shaving for a woman. i've noticed that little things like that often being a hint from the brilliant mr jordan...


created: 2002-07-14 23:33:12
subject: <b>Ummmm....</b>
body:
Uhh..no.....again, someone making a theory took the talking out of context.<br />    First off: Egwene was probably talking about how Berlaine is &quot;indecently exposing&quot; herself again and wants to make her feel a little bit of modesty, best way she knows how is to shame her.<br />    Second Quote: Faile is probably again mad at Berlain and is just making another one of her empty threats towards her. Obviously, Berlain would take great care of her hair because it is a major source of her beauty. Lose that and she will not be as attractive.<br />   I don't mean to sound rude, but does this not make sense? I mean, perhaps its just been to long between books and everyone is jumping at lots of quotes. Perhaps it could be forshadowing, but I doubt that RJ is that desperate for finding subtle things to hint at. But that's just me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-14 23:40:21
subject: <b>i will freely admit,</b>
body:
that this theory is lacking in any hard evidence.<br /><br />However, the combination of the 2 quotes could indicate forshadowing (although it also could just be happenstance).<br /><br />However, something fishy is going on with Berelain.  RJ has had to do a great deal of plot-work to move her to where she currently is (from Tear to Cairhienen, to Perrin's army).  If you add in her ancestry, there is a good chance of her being raised.<br /><br />This is highly speculative, but it in combined format it makes an interesting read, especially at this point when we are going on fumes for theory material.  Since we haven't had many theories lately, I offered you this one.  Hopefully it had some value (entertainment at least) if it didn't satisfy your scientific minds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 00:02:05
subject: <b>It is possible although, I am not confident in your logic.</b>
body:
I think I agree with your conclusions but not necessarily how you got there.<br /><br />First, I have major troubles with any theory that uses 'forshadowing' comments by RJ as the main source of proof.  Forshadowing only really works as an afterthought.  It makes a poor guide to the future.<br /><br />Second, I think you miss the biggest piece of evidence in support of your hypothesis.  Quoting from memory from the prophecies of the dragon (I don't have the books with me),  'he shall bind the west with the south and the north with the east.'  Rand interprets this as meaning that he will unite all four corners.  But by considering the fortelling of Nicola 'that the world is divided by the return' another more plausible interpretation emerges.  The Seanchen have taken the west and are sweeping across the south now.  Further evidence that Rand will not stop them before Illian is that Mat (via the horn of Valere) is tied to Illian as he is tied (by DotNM) to the Seanchen.  <br /><br />Putting together all those pieces, the Seanchen will eventually take over the south (probably including Tear and Mayene.  I know their are problems (Darlin being a king and Rand being king of Illian).  These problems aren't insurmountable, though. <br /><br />Third, how will the treat Berelain?  It is not as clear cut as you make it seem IMHO.  The question is what will they do with a person who claims descent from Artur Paendrag?  The Seanchen are not very forgiving of deviations from what the expect.  (Witness how the treated the watchers over the waves at Falme.)  Then again if Rand has any say (he is the one who does the binding) then he will probably try to protect Berelain.<br /><br />Fourth, although it is a minor point, how is Tuon associated with a golden hawk?  Tuon's personal sigil is an old war cart being pulled by cats (or was it lions?).  The symbol of the empire (or is it of the DotNM) is the raven and the roses.  (One of the symbols of the empress is definitly ravens, I am not sure if the roses is also part of her symbol or if it is added for the symbol of the DotNM.)  In any case the only symbology of a Golden Hawk associated with the Seanchen is Turak's <i>personal</i> emblem of the hawk holding either lightning bolts or arrows in its talons (my memory is poor at times).  Turak is dead and isn't female.  He is unlikely closely related to Tuon either as he is fairly low in terms of succession number.<br /><br />(Elaida on the other hand has golden hawks fighting on one of her boxes.  And she is a much more likely candidate to reach out and touch Egwene.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 01:05:29
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
But like several of the above have mentioned, the reasonings behind it seem a little weak... even if she is raised to the blood, it would be all but impossible to go back and say, &quot;Hey, I bet this random comment about Faile shaving Berelain was foreshadowing.&quot; It's just a completely different context.<br /><br />Overall, I do agree that Berelain has a good chance of being raised. But I think the strongest evidence to support this is how we know the Seanchan have treated the other nations they've conquered. As long as the ruler swears to &quot;obey, await, and serve,&quot; the Seanchan seem more than willing to let them continue to govern their territories, and even, as evidenced by Tylin, raise them to the blood. <br /><br />There seems to be some confusion as to the Hawk sigil... Yes, ravens and roses and whatnot are used a lot (most notably with the Deathwatch Guard and the Seekers), but the Seanchan Imperial Sigil is a golden hawk in flight, clutching three lightning bolts in its claws. This is the same banner that Luthair Paendrag carrid in his conquest of Seanchan. It has remained unchanged since his victory (TWORJTWOT, pg 157, sidebar). Also, remember who the Seanchan blood and Berelain all claim descent from... Artur HAWKwing. His personal sigil was the Golden Hawk, and the banner of Shandalle (the nation ruled by Artur Paendrag Tanreall before the Consolidation) featured three golden hawks in flight (TWORJTWOT, pg 103). All in all, I think there are plenty of connections between hawks and the Seanchan to make it worth thinking about.<br /><br />In reference to the above comment that Berelain (in the form of a female hawk) would be tied to Egwene... I don't think so. Egwene Dreamed this in relation to Perrin (the direct quote from the Wotmania FAQ - &quot;Perrin with a falcon on his shoulder, and Perrin with a hawk. Only the hawk held a leash in her talons--Egwene was somehow convinced both the hawk and falcon were female--and the hawk was trying to fasten it around Perrin's neck). The hawk isn't tied to Egwene, she just had the Dream that foretold it.<br /><br />I completely agree with the comment that talked about Rand &quot;binding the north to the east, and the south shall be bound to the west.&quot; It seems completely likely that the Borderlands will come to Rand (they're already marching through Andor to do it), and he's got the east pretty well locked up. I don't think he necessarily needs to lose Illian, Tear, and Mayene... I mean, the Seanchan already hold half of the southern coast of the continent. I think that's sufficient for the prophecy, and then the world is pretty much divided between Rand and the Seanchan.<br /><br />So I guess my only problem is that raising Berelain to the blood and having Mat marry Tuon seems to be killing the same bird with two stones, if you know what I mean. Mat and Tuon by themselves would be enough to bring the Seanchan to Rand... I don't think Berelain would really have that much effect. I still think it's possible, even likely, but I have a hard time believing that it will be instrumental to the plot. <br /><br />Just wanted to set some things straight with actual references. Thanks for reading my two cents.


created: 2002-07-15 01:16:05
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
You're getting desperate for wSE points, hey? lol.<br /><br />Seriously though, I don't see it. As mentioned above, I think that they were two seperate incidents completley unrelated and do not add up to foreshadowing. <br /><br />Then again, mabye it's just me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 01:19:35
subject: <b>berelain and the seanchan</b>
body:
Rabid Wombat and Luthair Paendrag: you both raised excellent points.  Just wanted to give you props for well-thought out responses.<br /><br />Luthair: you mentioned that you weren't sure what the significance of berelain alligning with the Seanchan would be, since Mat also appears to gain influence with the Seanchan (thus creating redundancy).<br /><br />I am not sure what will happen in the long-term, but in the short-term, I believe that it Berelain and her contacts with the Seanchan will be the ones to help save Perrin's bacon.<br />Perrin would be a fool to attack Sevanna, especially since she brought so many Wise Ones with her.  However, if he had Seanchan on his side, he could overcome the threat.  This might also have to do with Perrin selling his soul, which could mean that Perrin sold out to the enemy to save Faile.<br /><br />Since Seanchan is so huge, there might need to be many more people than Mat involved, to help integrate it with the Westlands.  Berelain could have a chief role in that regard.  And if Berelain was ever raised to the Imperial Throne, she could be a threat to Tuon herself.  Interesting possibilities arise.  But we will just have to see<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 02:43:42
subject: <b>what if...</b>
body:
so if Berelain is going to be raised to the dlood why not Rand? he is a king and we all know what else... If/when he meets some of the seanchan I see an chance... wouldn&#180;t it be nice to &quot;see&quot; a bold dragon reborn? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-15 12:20:36
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
It's possible, I guess, but I don't know how likely.  One thought I found fascinating is Perrin selling his soul to the Seachan.  Now that was an original idea, as far as I've seen on this site.  I always though he'd sell his soul to the Finn's, but the Seanchan isn't a possibility I considered.  I don't know how likely it is, but there could be some interesting ramifications towards Rand if he did.  I mean his other two ta'veren tied to his biggest enemy.  Interesting.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-15 13:18:21
subject: <b>comments on foreshadowing</b>
body:
In the replies above, it has been said that the quotes offered are out of context, meaningless and so forth. How many times have we read an event and then realized that one or two little lines were linked to it, lines that appeared to mean something else. RJ is like that and he does tend foreshadow a lot of things.<br /><br />I can't find the comment now, but I think it was mentioned by someone else in the books that Berelain was of Hawkwing's blood. (I think it was an Aes Sedai) So if she does meet with the Seanchan, maybe she's closer to Hawkwing than Tuon and thus becomes Empress by default <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 15:56:17
subject: <b>The Ultimate Reality</b>
body:
I agree with you, but Jordan does not seperate quotes of that sort by books; they're in the same book 99% of the time, and that other 1% deals with Prophecies.<br /><br />Even Jordan doesn't seperate forshadowing like that by 2 whole books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 16:33:55
subject: <b>Other Considerations</b>
body:
There are some interesting points, but I think other things need to be looked at and clarified.<br /><br />1.  Berelain DOES have a lot of power -- more than almost any noble in Westland.  She is nearly the chief advisor of the Dragon Reborn, as well as principal advisor of the budding northwestern kingdom (re-Manetheren).  Sure, these aren't official, but they are real.  Since power equates the ability to influence, then she has that in a meta-continent capacity that few others do (as in, less than half a dozen.<br /><br />2.  The Paendrag element really needs to be considered more.  First of all, we need to wrap up the Seanchan into this better.  Things aren't going well for them.  Lady Suroth just suffered a crushing defeat, she's also lost the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Said daughter is a channeler, and that, combined with the mareth-damane's secret, will rip the Empire apart.  Berelain may very well see an opportunity to brazenly take over the forces in Westland through her heritage -- and it just might play out.  That would rather neatly tie up parts of the Seanchan mess that otherwise don't show an obvious way out. <br /><br />Don't forget, Tylin's influence will be effectively nullified.  Plus, toss in that Semirhage is kicking up veggies in the Empresses' private garden, and you get an empire in disarray.  Berelain is strong while at the same time well-accustomed to being weak.  She may bring an element that the Empire did not have, and then package it to Rand.<br /><br />3. Let's not forget the Man in White (Galad).  Think of the ramifications of a marriage between the nephew of Lamen and a member of the Seanchan family.  Both characters are (or will be, as I firmly believe of Galad), strongly tied to Rand.  THIS is the unification he's been seeking!<br /><br />Speculation?  Sure.  But the elements are there.


created: 2002-07-15 17:07:34
subject: <b>Would be nice but...</b>
body:
Both of the references to getting her head shaved were things that Egwene and Faile would like to do to her...<br /><br />Her long hair was said to be very beautiful and to the women...no hair would be ugly and would shame Berelain...<br /><br />The rest was good though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 20:44:57
subject: <b>Somehow I don't see Berelain as a key advisor to Rand OR Perrin</b>
body:
Perrin is CONSTANTLY angry with her and would love it if he had nothing to do with her for the rest of his life. As well, Rhuarc keeps Berelain in line with a brisk humiliation every time she gets out of line (b4 she left w/ Perrin). Hardly a lot of power.<br /><br />Also, something we haven't addressed yet: Why would the Seanchan just roll over and say &quot;Oh, you have the same last name. Yeah, you can be Hawkwing's decendant.&quot; Officially Berelain has no proof that her ancestor WAS related to Artur, only a tale passed down in Mayene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 21:45:41
subject: <b>Egwene's Comment</b>
body:
I could be wrong -- I haven't checked the source material -- but could Egwene's comment not have held the implication that she HAD dreamed of Berelain with her head shaved?  Like &quot;I'll do it for real, that slut!&quot;


created: 2002-07-15 23:13:05
subject: <b>GG</b>
body:
I'm not trying to start anything, but I think you've seriously misread things. <br /><br />Rhuarc is actually quite fond of Berelain, and proud of her.  I believe it was the Shadow Rising, but not sure...Perrin could smell it on him, as if he (Rhuarc) was regarding a smart and precocious offspring.<br /><br />She was not sent off with Perrin to be a camp follower, but to essentially manage things for him.  It's Faile that Rand's not too impressed with (much of that coming from Moiraine's bias against Faile as something/someone that could distract the ta'veren from her influence).<br /><br />And Berelain has ALWAYS been nearby advising Rand, even at his direction.  I can't name the books and specific parts, but heck, she's in all of them.  Once they got the not-sleeping-with-him part straightened out in TSR, he's trusted her.  <br /><br />Check again...I think you'll find it so.  There has always been praise for her as an administrator (in general) for steering the ripe plum of Mayenne out of Tairan control.


created: 2002-07-16 02:01:19
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
Thanks for getting your intent in there. Makes things more friendly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Rhuarc is actually quite fond of Berelain, and proud of her. I believe it was the Shadow Rising, but not sure...Perrin could smell it on him, as if he (Rhuarc) was regarding a smart and precocious offspring.&quot;<br /><br />Agreed, but that doesnt mean that he wont humiliate her if the need arises. When Berelain and Faile were fighting, he threatened to spank them both. Literaly spank them. Beralain quickened her step <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;And Berelain has ALWAYS been nearby advising Rand, even at his direction. I can't name the books and specific parts, but heck, she's in all of them. Once they got the not-sleeping-with-him part straightened out in TSR, he's trusted her.&quot;<br /><br />When does Rand ever have her in an advisor position, or even take her advice? I just don't remember. It's alot of books for any one man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;There has always been praise for her as an administrator (in general) for steering the ripe plum of Mayenne out of Tairan control.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure where you are going with this? Did you just mean this as a character reference, or a part of the discussion? I agree, though. Also, something that we both failed to mention is her favor w/ the WO's.<br /><br />I'm not sure what that has anything to with, but what about how &quot;The seeds of the Hammer will burn the Ancient Tree&quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 06:52:11
subject: <b>But what about Galad...</b>
body:
Well, first off, great theory and I tend to agree with it.<br />The quotes, ja wel, they seem pretty loose and out of context, but the rest of the theory, in my opinion is sound. <br /><br />One question just keeps nagging at me....<br /><br />Galad was a Whitecloak, one of the few that truly believed in the Children's mission and vision statements, if they can be called that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />And the Seanchan destroyed the Fortress of Light. <br />Wouldn't Galad hate the Seanchan for that then?? Could make for interesting marriage convo's when the pretty-boy marries Berelain.<br /><br />Berelain, if she is made blood, will efectively tie Mayene, a great port and close staging point for an attack on Tear, to the invaders. <br />That should catch Rand's attention...<br />But we know Berelain is loyal to Rand and has lain her future with him. <br />The Seanchan in a neat little package? Maybe, but I don't buy it. RJ is too wily for that. More likely Berelain will be a major dividing point in the Empire. <br /><br />Imagine Berelain revealing her ancestry, raised to the Blood, and then revealing the shocking truth of the damane. She will become a rally point for a large faction of the Seanchan, especially once they learn she has the ear of the Dragon...<br /><br />Just a few thoughts...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'In the softly spoken words of the Virgin Mary: &quot;Come again?&quot;'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 08:02:23
subject: <b>Well done!</b>
body:
Matrimony Cauthon,<br /><br />Thanks for submitting such a well-written and intelligent theory!  I found it very enjoyable to read.  I don&#8217;t believe that finding a correlation between two seemingly small or offhanded quotes is overanalyzing in the least.  (Well, actually I don&#8217;t believe there is such a thing as OVERanalyzing, but who cares?)<br /><br />Perhaps people are right; perhaps these are just not very significant quotes from two women expressing their frustration towards Berelain.  But I just wanted to emphasize that perhaps YOU are right too (which is the opinion I hold).  Rereading the series is always interesting because I often notice things that seem small or unimportant that I never would have noticed during the first read.  Maybe such things are coincidence and maybe they are foreshadowing.  Light, maybe they are neither!  But, like you said about the quotes you cleverly noticed, they surely are interesting.<br /><br />I am always amused by things characters say that seem to be unimportant in the grand scheme of events but that later you notice are probably intentional and deliberate (as I believe your 2 quotes are).  For example, when Moiraine sees Egwene sneaking Rand into the women&#8217;s apartments in Fal Dara, she thinks,<br /><br />&#8220;If the girl shows as much initiative in Tar Valon&#8230; she will sit in the Amyrlin Seat one day.&#8221;  (The Great Hunt, chapter 4)<br /><br />I know the first time that I read it, I thought Moiraine was merely thinking wryly about Egwene&#8217;s spunky personality, but now when I read it I see it as a little hint or suggestion.  <br /><br />&#8220;You may go far, perhaps even the Amyrlin Seat, one day, if you study hard and work hard.&#8221; (Moiraine to Egwene, The Eye of the World, chapter 12)<br /><br />I know that those two things aren&#8217;t exactly in the same category as yours, but they are similar in the way that they seemed like simple comments at first, but then later become something more.  Perhaps one more similar to what you noticed is when Rand says about the True Source,<br /><br />&#8220;Oh, I won&#8217;t ever touch it again.  Not if I have to cut off my hand, first.&#8221;  (The Eye of the World, chapter 53)<br /><br />No one considers this proof that something will happen to his hand, it&#8217;s just a figure of speech.  But on top of viewings, it might be something more.  Well, anyway, I digress.  <br /><br />The point is that these hints and suggestions are very entertaining for me, and it is impressive that Matrimony Cauthon has seen them before they have &#8220;come true.&#8221;  Not that I think that they will come true without a doubt, but I think they are fascinating anyway.  I don&#8217;t consider them to be absolute proof for anything, but I think they are very far from coincidence.  Thanks again, Mat, for being so perceptive!  If you have noticed anything else along these lines, I would love to hear about it!<br /><br />Kaerie<br />


created: 2002-07-16 09:38:16
subject: <b>stuff</b>
body:
You raise some good points that I'll try to address. <br /><br />1.  Berelain is, in effect, a roof mistress.  The Wise Ones treat her as such; so does Rhuarc -- even if, in private, he'll allude to spanking her if she does not live up to his expectations and the talents she's displayed.  That's actually something of a compliment: she established a positive impression, and he's going to hold it to her.  And let's face it, she's earned it. (yes, it was essentially a character reference)<br /><br />2.  I do not know how she will establish, but in a moment I'll try to propose a possible scenario. It's not a theory, mind you, but just a speculation how it -might- happen.<br /><br />3.  Rand has her around.  He asks her opinion.  Sometimes, he demands her opinion.  He gives her assignments and expects her to carry them out...and incidentally they're assignments that put her into contact and public display in front of key governments.  So she comes to THEM with the authority of the Dragon behind her.  That gives her power.<br /><br />What does Rand offer her?  Nothing.  She came to him and offered her services (herself, briefly), and her tiny country to him.  She was the first to do so.  That means something to him.  He knows why, of course.  But she is honest with him, and he values that.  There can be little doubt that (assuming they win) Mayenne and Berelain will benefit greatly from her services and loyalty.<br /><br />You could look at it as if she's nothing more than a titular errand-girl.  But who else among all nobles (besides Elayne) does Rand trust so much?  Who else wields more authority in the Dragon's name than Berelain (among nobles)?  Weiramon? Puh-leez.  Heck, he probably TRUSTS Berelain as a politician more than he does Elayne, but of course he loves Elayne and values her freedom and self-will and individuality.  That means nothing to him in Berelain.<br /><br />So, this noblewoman who enacts the will of the Dragon Reborn, who is the only consistent noble extension of his will whom he trusts, does indeed, have great influence.  If she says something, he will listen.  If she is correct, he will most likely do what she suggests.  Who else can say that?  That puts her into the roll of advisor, even if there is no official title.  And the same applies to her and Perrin.  <br /><br /><br />4.  Galad.  Do we know of connections between Lamen and the noble house of Cairhien, and Artur Paendrag?  (real question).  That could be quite interesting.  I bet there is some.  In discussing how things could pan out, I'll use that to a degree.<br /><br />Mind you, this is just a toss-out about how, not WHAT will happen.  I submit it as a speculative case study, not an actual theory:<br /><br />The Seanchan advance and Return is in shambles.  Badly.  A secret is leaking out that will rock the Empire to its core.  More than one secret.  The mareth-damane, who are entrusted with controlling the female channelers, are indeed channelers of their own.  The Daughter of the Nine Moons is a channeler.  And the Dragon Reborn is back -- a man who can channel, in a position of power. It's enough to place the Empress in the Tower of Ravens. <br /><br />Tylin is being raised to the Blood, simply for her willingness to comply, and because she's the leader of a small country.  <br /><br />Now, first Berelain will have to meet Galad.  She needs to get free, I don't know how and it's not important.  She simply may be sent to the Seanchan by Rand to negotiate.  She will surely elicit excitement about her surname.  Keep in mind, the vaunted Seanchan Empire is on the verge of collapse, even if they're all not aware of it yet.  They may well be desperate for any leadership in world turned upside down from all their beliefs.  This could even involve some of Rand's ta'veren-ness, but as with others, I don't like using that as a cop-out.<br /><br />At some point or other, Berelain will be hooking up with Galad.  It's quite possible that the Seanchan have records that shed more light on Galad (and even Rand) and their ties to the ancient empire.  As mentioned above, I speculate that this is so. Again, this isn't a theory, just an exercise in free thought.<br /><br />So...if Berenlain Sur Paendrag hooks up with Galad Damodred, of some undetermined ancient connection...and can use her formidable skills to rebuild the Corenne into the true situation....well, there you go.  Couple that with Tuon hooking up with Mat and it further strengthens the ties.  The reunification will be complete, just not the way the Seanchan originally thought.<br /><br />Stretch? Of course.  Hugely.  But RJ's stretched much farther.


created: 2002-07-16 11:01:37
subject: <b>I'm changing my mind,</b>
body:
I think Matrimony does have an excellent point.  Foreshadowing is used a lot in the books, in meaningless, offhand comments.  Kaerie pointed out some great examples of foreshadowing.  <br /><br />  For Green Gaiden, you said that Jordan doesn't use obscure foreshadowing two books in advance.  This is not true.  In one of the first chapters of tEotW, When Rand, Mat, and Perrin are talking about the Dragon, Mat says, &quot;I like battles.&quot;  Come on, that's a perfect example of obscure foreshadowing.  The only reason I remember it was when I reread the series for the third or fourth time, I noticed it, and started laughing, since all he does is try to avoid them now.  But he DOES love battles.<br /><br />  So it is very possible that those two seemingly innocent lines are a bit of foreshadowing.  There is precedent.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-16 12:13:12
subject: <b>Wismail and Vashti</b>
body:
Wismail: YOu took what I said the wrong way. I didn't mean that he didnt foreshadow two books in advance, I meant that he won't put in a quote in tSR, then another in CoS, then another in WH to Foreshadow somethng. <br /><br />To Whomever wrote above on Rand losing his hand: Great quote! That's heavy foreshadowing along with him being Tyr (?), his dreams of Fain wanting his hand, Moiraine telling the story of al' Caar, whom Mordeth cut his hand off, and Min's vision of Elayne with a bloody hand and a white hot Iron (hand not hers) We can chalk that one up!<br /><br />Vashti: I am not saying that Berelain is not influential, just not influential with Rand/Perrrin. At least not to the degree you're thinking. What about Dobraine? Anyway, Rand does not Trust her. He trusts a SELECT few people, and she is just a tool for him to retain influence, but it's not like she's having meetimgs w/ the borderlanders discussing their intentions toward Rand, follow? She's not THAT big. Rand left her behind while he went on his conquests to run Cairhein with the help of Rhuarc( He actually ran things, she advised him).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 13:51:34
subject: <b>The trouble with forshadowing.</b>
body:
The trouble with forshadowing is that how do you know ahead of time which statements are forshadowing and which are just points of interest.  An example is Nynaeve's thought (LoC I do believe) that she could sooner breathe under water than channel with out being angry.  Is this forshadowing?  Sure, yet that same section had her thinking other thoughts like she had a better chance of flying, etc.. Without knowing what how Nynaeve finally breaks her block it is difficult to determine which one of the Forshadowing statements is true.  Knowing which is true makes the whole section more enjoyable on re-reading it.  <br /><br />Speculation based on forshadowing is great fun.  I do believe that forshadowing can be supportive evidence of a kind as well.  Speculation based on pure foreshadowing is of rather poor quality, though.  RJ is not a complete dolt; he knows that there are enough people trying to read into forshadowing that he will throw out distractions and fake forshadowing.  RJ wants to suprise us, even as he wants to give us clues.  (That is what makes RJ vastly superior to Rowling for instance;  Rowling may suprise but she doesn't give out the vast amount of clues ahead of time that RJ does.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 16:11:38
subject: <b>What foreshadowing???????</b>
body:
I think you have to take this theory for what it is...  50 WOT pts.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 16:30:12
subject: <b>alright, let's see how much forshadowing comments....</b>
body:
we can think of.  We should compile as many as we can find, and then make an faq for this site.  I think it would be a really good and fun project.  The compilation could also include quotes such as the one in my theory, that might or might not mean something in the future.<br /><br />&quot;I would cut off my arm before I let something harm you Min&quot;<br />She then looks at him askew, giving importance to the statement <br />and relating it to one of her visions.  (LoC)<br /><br />&quot;...I do not ever believe that you will be a part of the White tower, not<br />the way the rest of us are, no mater on which finger you wear your ring.&quot;  (TDR)<br /><br />There is the quote from the noble lady in TGH, saying that Rand looked like the mix between an Aielman and someone from the Andor Royal bloodline.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Possible Future Foreshadowing:<br /><br />Nynaeve will never be happy till she heals someone 3 days dead quote.<br /><br />Perrin in TSR says: &quot;I certainly am not Artur Hawkwing reborn, am I?&quot;<br /><br />We saw Rand's thoughts about Mat being King Aemon reborn in EoTW.<br /><br />There is the quote in WH about Mat expecting a forsaken to jump out of the fireplace.  This was when Mat first met Anath.<br /><br /><br />RJ's misleading forshadowing:  <br /><br />Thom's statement about the Amyrlin marrying the Lord commander of the Whitecloaks (Egwene and Galad).  We don't know if this will or will not happen, but I doubt that it will, unless Gawyn all of a suddden dies.  <br />In PoD, Rand told one of his Ashamen (I think it was Morr) that he would be with him for a long time.  And Morr died at the end of that very book. (or was it Hopwil?)<br /><br /><br />Well, that should be good for now.  I know that there are tons more, but I can't think of them right now.  We really should make an faq on this subject.  Let me know if you want to help, and we will get it done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 16:32:39
subject: <b>a couple more possible forshadowings</b>
body:
In WH, Lanfear said that she <i> would </i> see Rand die.<br /><br />Demandred also had the thought about Halima, that her lusts would someday be the death of her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 18:01:17
subject: <b>Matrimony</b>
body:
Regarding Hopwil, I don't think that was misleading...isn't Hopwil now added to Rand's list of names? And THAT stays with him more than just about anything.<br /><br /><br />GG -- we disagree. Shrug. I feel that if someone is consistently around another, has the ability to make suggestions or criticisms (judiciously), then that person is an advisor.  Very, very few can do that with Rand.  Rhuarc, Lan (because of their special bond), Min (but that's something else), Bashere and Berelain.  Cadsuane as well now.  Moiraine and Fel in the past.  That's a very, very select list.  A handful of people to advise the most important person on the continent.  I am not counting Mat and Perrin.


created: 2002-07-16 22:18:47
subject: <b>I was referring......</b>
body:
to the qoutes you used in your theory.  I see no foreshadowing.  Do you really believe that Faile's comment way back in book four was foreshadowing.  If you have even the slightest chance its with Egwene's comment.  Faile's comment in book 4 is just that and nothing more.<br /><br />You are correct in that someone can be raised to the blood.  I just cannot lend any wait to your theory based on two qoutes from books long gone.  <br /><br />Also I cannot beleive I missed the passage in TSR where Perrin thinks he might be Hawkwing reborn?  Could you please supply me with the page # as this is something I'd love to go back to and reread if it actually exists and not made up.  At this point I will give you the benefit of the doubt because of the knowledge of the story you have shown to possess.  <br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 23:22:57
subject: <b>Columbo:</b>
body:
The Artur Hawkwing quote you requested is in Chpt. 41 of TSR.  I used ideal seek, http://idealseek.no-ip.com/, (which is the best wot quote finder on the net) to find the quote, but I will let you look up the pg. number, since I don't know if you have hardback or paper.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 01:10:06
subject: <b>Matrimony</b>
body:
That's a GREAT idea! One of us should noteboard Moridin_2000 and talk about putting it up on the FaQ<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 10:55:55
subject: <b>Green Gaiden</b>
body:
Sorry about that.  I do see where you're coming from.  However, you are wrong about who ruled Cairhein.  The books clearly state the Berelain ruled, and Rhuarc advised her.  Amys told Berelain not to rely on Rhuarc so much when the Tower embassy arrived.<br /><br />This has developed into a great discussion on foreshadowing.  I never noticed the connection to Mordeth cutting off al'Caar's hand.  I do have one question though.  How could Perrin possibly be Hawkwing.  How can your soul be called by the Horn if you are there.  If that was possible, wouldn't Lews Therin have been there too.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-17 13:40:20
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thanks Matrimony Cauthon.  I will look it up!  Stay tuned.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 18:26:30
subject: <b>Re: Qoute in question</b>
body:
Matrimony you were close.  The exact qoute is different from the one you posted.<br /><br />It should read as follows; &quot; I am certainly not Artur Hawkwing, am I?&quot;<br /><br />Not, &quot; I am certainly not Artur Hawkwing reborn, am I ?&quot;<br /><br />One important difference between the two and that is yours includes the word &quot;reborn&quot;.  <br /><br />Thanks for the heads up.  I hope this helps.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 18:52:49
subject: <b>Perrin-Hawkwing</b>
body:
It makes one of the scenes from the battle at Falme even more intriguing...Perrin and Hawkwing, fighting knee-to-knee (on horseback).<br /><br />Would that be possible if he was Paendrag reborn?


created: 2002-07-17 20:12:34
subject: <b>Wismail</b>
body:
I don't remember that quote, or that Berelain ruled in Rand's stead. I mean, it's not exactly ruling if the person whom you have authority over will spank you for insolence. She may have met w/ emmisaries, yes, but it Rhuarc who called the shots when all was said and done. If, for example, she agreed to let AS stay in the city, and Rhuarc said no, what would happen? The AS would either A) leave, or B) be thrown out if Rhuarc deemed that the situation called for it. Not that he would, of course, but Rhuarc was running the show with his power, and the power of the WO's. What do you think Berelain would do if one of Rhuarc's wives gave her an order? Exactly.<br /><br />As far as Perrin-Hawkwing, no it's not possible. If that soul was spun out in Perrin, it could not have been called by the Horn. If it could, wouldn't we see LTT there?<br /><br />That's pretty basic stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 23:05:19
subject: <b>Berelain and Galad</b>
body:
Don't forget Min's fortelling was that the man in white will snub her. There's no marraige here.<br /><br />But if were talking about RJ's fortelling then what about in WH when Perrin sees a flying Hawk and thinks about his wife Faile.<br /><br />But Faile will live because RJ has a problem with killing major good guys. B Grade good guys is no problem. Nalesean, Hopwell, Morr etc. Tylin's son will get her killed and Altara will have a vacant throne for cousin Berelain to fill?????<br />


created: 2002-07-18 01:38:05
subject: <b>This has always been...</b>
body:
one of my favorite shot-in-the-dark theories.  Thanks for giving it a new twist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 07:56:07
subject: <b>Bold as an egg</b>
body:
Columbo says that Egwene's comment about Berlain is deliberate and Fail's isn't<br /><br />Fail said that she will shave her as bold as an egg<br /><br />perhaps when Berlain will be raised to the imperial family Fail will be the one to shave her <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 09:58:46
subject: <b>GG and Spankings</b>
body:
Dude, you're REALLY getting hung up on girls getting spanked. <br /><br />by your logic, that means Rhuarc also is at least part de facto ruler of Two Rivers/Manetheren, since it was Faile he also threatened to spank.  And Faile is VERY much in charge in the Two Rivers, along with Perrin. <br /><br />I submit that Rhuarc has no influence of note in the Two Rivers region.<br /><br />Since the comment was applied to both, you have to give equal weight to both.  You can't shift it to accommodate.<br /><br />Does Berelain only have the power that Rand gives her?  Of course.  You could say that about anybody who isn't a friend of the dark, however.  If Rand decided to finish off Elaida, don't you think it wouldn't happen? Bring Mat in with his army and work with Egwene and even have the Asha'man Travel in?<br /><br />If he decided to remove King Easar of Shienar, don't you think he could do it?  Pretty much, in the Continental landscape of politics, any time Rand decides to remove someone, they get removed. see: Sammael, Rahvin.  That doesn't mean he could control the succession or install his will, but he can remove anyone.  <br /><br />Beyond the list of people I gave, do you see anyone that Rand puts in a position of trust more than Berelain regarding governance and leadership?  In fact, I submit that he even trusts her more than he does Egwene.  Trust doesn't mean you have to be happy about it.  If you tell someone to do something and expect it will be done, that, essentially, is trust (of a sort, as opposed to, say, the trust of the emotional bond between a parent and child).  <br /><br />The fact that Berelain is one of the half-dozen people or so on the continent that Rand gives both power and autonomy to is, plain and simply, trust.  In fact, regarding pure politics, she's probably in the top two (with Elayne, not counting Rand).  Maybe also Elaida.<br /><br />  Berelain, in the past few years, has had power in Tear.  She has had power in Cairhien.  She has indirect power practically everywhere else because if she made an intelligent suggestion regarding, say, Illian, it likely would be implemented. Certainly at least considered.  Regardless of how or where she gets her power, she is, indeed, quite powerful. <br /><br />Why? Because the Dragon Reborn trusts her loyalty and political acumen.


created: 2002-07-18 14:15:56
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
Slow down and take a breath.  Rand does not trust Berelain as you say.  Rand uses Berelain.  Their is a big difference between the two.  So you can understand - Berelain is like Asmodean to Rand.  To be used when needed. <br /><br />Trusts Berelain more than Egwene??  I don't think so.  You truly misunderstand.  <br /><br /><br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 17:26:49
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Columbo, you've started to exhibit some decent sense recently, but if you think Rand trusts Egwene even a tiny bit, you haven't been paying attention.<br /><br />Last he knew, Egwene is the pitiful puppet of rebellious Aes Sedai, and worse, because she so willingly embraces it.  He SPIES on her.  If he trusted her, he'd simply visit and ask.  He doesn't spy on Berelain.  He gives her a task and trusts that it will get done. <br /><br />He's had many quotes regarding Egwene's departure.  &quot;She left Emond's Field farther behind than any of us.&quot;  &quot;She's more and more Aes Sedai every day.&quot;  (do I have to explain how much he 'trusts' Aes Sedai?)<br /><br />www.dictionary.com, re: trust:<br />-Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing. <br />-Something committed into the care of another; charge. <br />-One in which confidence is placed. <br /><br />Sounds precisely like what he does with Berelain.  He sends her to the hottest political spots on the continent, time and again.  Sure, he gives her backup and support and peers (I believe he also trusts Rhuarc as well), but running countries is a tough business.<br /><br />Note that he doesn't send Weiramon, or Bael or Erian or any other political figure.  <br /><br />Does it mean he likes her?  Nah.  But he doesn't have to.<br /><br />As for Asmodean...well, I don't recall him threatening her life repeatedly or bullying her or treating her in a punitive manner. She has never been an enemy, much less one who has sold their soul to the epitome of Evil.  That's a poor connection.<br /><br />Anyway, I imagine you're not going to agree with me, but don't mix up what you wish was the case with what actually is.  If you do feel the need to push it, make sure you examine and post all the instances where he says something to indicate his distrust of her, and balance them against the enormous political power he's placed in her (is there anyone on the continent who wields more, aside from Rand and maybe Elaida??). But that'll be for yourself.  <br /><br />(done on this topic) <br /><br />


created: 2002-07-18 17:38:39
subject: <b>Columbo's right.</b>
body:
Rand doesn't neccesarily trust Berelain.  He does trust her, not to screw him.  It's a fine line, but it is there.  But Rand does trust her to do what he needs done, and that is where she gets her power.<br /><br />  It's the same for Talmanes.  If Mat didn't want him running the army, he wouldn't.  It doesn't make Talmanes any less powerful in the eyes of his soldiers.  He's still second in command, and that's a huge step above a drill sergeant.  His power resides from Mat, Berelain's from Rand.  But it is still power.<br /><br />As for GG's obsession with spanking, what's the problem?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-18 22:00:13
subject: <b>Vashti ?</b>
body:
Sometimes I wonder about you too.<br /><br />Anyways thats alright.  Its good sometimes to have someone with ideas not simular at all to my own.  We will just have to agree to disagree most of the time.  Since you shared with me I will share with you.<br /><br />I wonder how you can suggest SPYING on Egwene.  Correct me if I 'm wrong, but the way I 've always seen it is as follows;<br /><br />Roughly 3 years ago Moraine and others showed up in Edmonds Feild.  Moraine took with her Rand,Perrin,Mat,Egwene and Thom.  You have to remember at this point Rand and Egwene were destined to be married and spend the rest of their lives happily ever after.  Moraine changed all that, didn't she?  From the start Rand was protective of Egwene.  This was obvious.  After some time and a few adventures it became obvious to both that they were not fated for each other.  Fine by both and both have been busy since leaving the two rivers, is this fair to say?  You have provided qoutes that you suggest shows Rands growing distrust for Egwene and her purpose.  You actually go so far to suggest that Rand barely trust Egwene at all?  I interpret them in a different way.  I feel they only show Rands worry for her well-being.  Remember this is someone he was to spend the rest of his life with.  From the start Rand has also assumed that Egwene needed looking out for,  that she was naive.  If you remember he sent Mat to look out for her.  <br /><br />SPYING??  This is also something that blows me away.  You suggesting that Rand is Spying on Egwene?  Do you beleive that Rand beleives she is a darkfriend?  That she needs spying on.<br /><br />Just the opposite is true. Rand's concern for Egwene's well being as well as her goals are a concern for Rand.  Rand is not spying he is interested in the goings on.  Also that fact that he has not went to visit Egwene is a testament to his trust of her,  not that he is worried she will try to still him as you might suggest.<br /><br />Again we disagree and we will again in the future I'm sure.  The Wheel Turns.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 16:48:03
subject: <b>Sorry I'm Late, but I still want to get my $0.02 in</b>
body:
Well, I realize I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to agree with Vashti in that I think Rand trusts Berlain at least almost as much as he trusts anyone else (excluding Perrin, Mat, Lan, Rhuric, and his honey's). She has demonstarted she is a competent politician, and he feels comfortable using her top that end. Does that mean he has total trust for her? Of coure not. But Moriane taught him enough to know that a good leader deligates responsiblility.<br /><br />In LoC, Rand asks Egwene where the rebel AS are, and she refuses to tell him. That is not her information to give him is what she says as I recall. At this point, after being bonded against his will by Alanna, Rand is going more distrustful of AS (rightfully so). This proves to him that Egwene is now more AS than old aquaintance, and he treats her as such.<br /><br />It really is a classic paradox in that both parties feel the other has grown &quot;too big for their britches.&quot; At some point in time, I'm sure the two will sit down and discuss their differences. And there will probably be yelling involved, but in the long run, they will need to join forces AS and Asha'man, to be successful at TG.<br /><br />GG, a while back you asked if the prophecy &quot;The seeds of the hammer will burn the Ancient Tree&quot; might mean anything pertenent to this discussion. I believe this refers to Tarabon being conquered by the Seanchan. Tarabon's sigil includes the tree of life, and it is thoight that at one time they may have possessed and branch from it. People from Tarabon are refered to as the &quot;People of the Tree&quot;, or something like that. I saw that on the Fact of the Day just recently.<br /><br />Oh, Ya, as for the theory... I've always beleived that Berlain claiming decendancy from Hawkwing would lead her into the Seanchan nobility. I just hadn't really thought about them shaving here head. But it sounds plausible. I just hope Galad marries her before she shaves her head. Of course, he would do whats right and marry her even if she was ugly. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace, Out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-20 04:46:09
subject: <b>Vashti, don't leave before you read this.</b>
body:
First of all, sorry for the delay in responding, I've been kind of busy.<br /><br />I can see that we're talking about 2 different things here. You put up a quote on Trust's definition, but you are using the word in a strictly denotative meaning. I would have thought that your years as an editor would have shown you what I meant, but it's really my fault for not explaining myself right.<br /><br />The 'Trust' I'm talking about it connotative. In a Denotative (dictionary) definition, Rand trust Berelain. Perrin also trusts his hammer to pound steel, Mat trusts his hat to keep the sun off of his head and Lan trusts the Hadori to hold his hair back.<br /><br />What I was saying is that he doesnt not trust her as he trusts the people someone above mentioned: Lan, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, etc. Those people he TRUSTS in a human way. As Columbo said above, he trusts Berelain in the same way Perrin trusts his hammer.<br /><br />The reason that Berelain was left in power along with Rhuarc in Cairhein was so that no local noble could assume the throne or gain too much power. It was a deft move by Rand to bring in 2 foreigners to rule in his stead where Daes Daemar rages the hottest in the world. Not to play the GoH, mind you, but just to rule fairly for him. He also has a steward in Tear, and leaves the Council of Nine to run Illian. Had, say, Thom offered his services to rule under Rand in Cairhein, who do you thnk Rand would have apponted and why? Thom, because he trusts him in a human way, and that is hugely important to Rand. Unless of course, Thom could not manuovre (sp?) as well as Berelain in a political arena. That was a joke, btw. WQe all know that Berelain is a frog to Thom's Komodo Dragon in that department. She's good, yes, but Thom is the best.<br /><br />BTW, could you run by me once more how Rhuarc is in charge of the TR? That flew right over my head. It must have been a joke because there's no logic there. Never mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Also, I need clarification on when Rand sends Berelain to the hottest political spots to speak for him. I don't remember anything of the like, but I COULD have missed it.<br /><br />I'm thinking of putting something new in my sig. Something like: &quot;He who will not allow Theory Post Blackboarders to Costanza out of an argument.&quot; What do you all think? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-20 10:07:44
subject: <b>Briefly</b>
body:
Since you asked some questions.<br /><br />First of all, add whatever nickname you wish, but have you ever considered that when I say I'm going to stop going after an issue that clearly won't have resolution, I am merely trying to be polite to the rest of the board and not get into a contest of &quot;Who Gets the Last Word?&quot;  I will only do that when things get uggggly and I feel I can best stop the flaming by actually pushing the issue (and it worked, too).  In most circles, that's regarded as tactful, diplomatic and positive.  I simply don't wish to be a screaming harridin.<br /><br />As for most of your points, it actually was randwashere who said what I was trying to say.  Rand doesn't have any noted affection for Berelain (as I've said), but he DOES trust her, as a political entity more than he trusts any other political entity in the world.  Yes, I'm generalizing.  I'm sure he doesn't have any problems with Lord Agelmar (yet!), simply because he hasn't interacted with him politically.  He also trusts Bashere, but Bashere is a military commander, not a political leader.  Incidentally, he trusts Bashere for precisely the same reasons he trusts Berelain, I'm guessing -- because he voluntarily joined him, without coercion, and with reasonably acceptable honesty.  And I'm sorry, I don't feel like backspacing, but he trusts Rhuarc as much, and almost certainly more than Berelain.  Which would place Rhuarc and Berelain at the top of 'Political Entities He Trusts' list, which of course means they are his chief political advisors, which, I recall, was my original point.<br /><br />No doubt if Thom decided to go into politics, he'd quickly ascend to the list.  I view Rand as having three 'fathers'.  Tam, Lan and Thom.  They are on the short list of people he truly, actually loves.  But there's no way in hell that would happen, and everyone (Thom, Rand, us) knows it, so it's useless to mention it. <br /><br />Rhuarc and spankings and the Two Rivers.  Yes, it went over your head. It sort of was meant to.  It was meant to be absurd.  It was meant to counter a point that was made that Rhuarc has political ascendacy over Berelain because he suggested the possibility of spanking her and she accepted the reality of that possibility.  I submitted that he did the same to Faile, and she, too, accepted the possibility, so by the logic of the commentor, that would mean he is politically ascendant over Lady Faile Bashere-Aybara of the Two Rivers.  Which, of course, is silly, which was my point. <br /><br />He has no notable affection for Berelain, but he trusts her. He has fond memory and probably residual love for Egwene, but doesn't trust her a lick.  He HAS spied on her (twice that I can recall in TAR -- remember how he found out about Salidar?) and he flatly doesn't trust what she says, and hasn't since the Aiel Waste. <br /><br />And I chuckle along with Randwashere about the paradox.  I think this is just about the stupidest element of the entire series, where Egwene (and other Aes Sedais) get all huffy because for some reason they still think he should be subordinate to them.  They prate on about obeying the Tower, despite the demonstrable proof of recent years that trusting the Tower would effectively be suicide.  Which tower?  How can Egwene possibly think that the Dragon Reborn, legend of prophecy, destined to fight and hopefully defeat the Dark One to save the world, is subordinate to an obvious puppet Amyrlin girl of a rebel faction of a White Tower shattered by betrayal? Heck, even Egwene knows she's supposed to be a puppet, though to her credit she's trying to not be.  This is why Egwene went from being one of my favorite characters to just about my least favorite. <br /><br />And now I will stop -- again.  Why?  Because I'm trying to be polite.  Because, really, the only other option is for me to be part of a disgusting social habit.  But call it what you will.


created: 2002-07-22 12:50:57
subject: <b>Hey, if you want to stop, be my guest.</b>
body:
I wasn't even IN the conversation at that point, and was therefore starting a new one with you. I know you have a bit of difficulty staying with me sometimes, but that's no reason to bow out of a discussion that hasn't begun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> j/k<br /><br />Seriously though, way to avoid my points. A classic move that is apparently 'tactful'. Do you think no one else here realises what you're doing? Jeez 'dude'. <br /><br />Anyway, as you're now done on the subject *snicker* I, too, will leave this 'conversation that was not to be' alone. It was an interesting topic. Too bad you 'bowed out' early.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-22 22:25:21
subject: <b>Whoever is manipulating the votes again....</b>
body:
Please stop it.<br /><br />That is all I have to say, it is an abuse of the system, and at any quantitative way of measuring a theories popularity.  <br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-23 17:31:48
subject: <b>*shrug*</b>
body:
Believe what you will.  The simple truth is, someone has to stop.  You've utterly demonstrated that you never will, even when you're wrong or don't have anything substantive or comprehensible to say.  So I will.  <br /><br />You disagree? Fine.  Columbo disagrees? Fine.  Yet neither of you have been able to answer my simple question:  Name political figures who have more trust and influence.  There are a few, but only when they blur the line, and typically for another reason.  Namely, Elayne (lovers) and Rhuarc (father figure).  Since nobody can name more than a couple, then that proves my point.  So why are you arguing?<br /><br />So yes, I'm stopping.  If you want to think I'm copping out, go ahead.  Get the last word in, as you must do.  It's a maturity thing, and the only way I'm going to deliberately stay in something and not let it go is when the tone gets nasty, and in that situation I've already explained why (and as I said, it worked).


created: 2002-07-24 23:13:56
subject: <b>Rand DOES trust Berelain</b>
body:
Just adding my support.  I agree that Rand has enTRUSTED Berelain with responsibilities as far as keeping things under control while he has to go do the &quot;Saving the world&quot; thing he does so well.<br /><br />I agree that there are few people that are placed so high on his list of people he trusts.  That doesn't mean that he has to like them, as a number of people have pointed out.  He just trusts them to do the right thing politically by him.<br /><br />I like the idea that Berelain will somehow  end up being raised, even into the Imperial Family.  It has definitely been set up that way by RJ, or why else would she be written in as a sur Paendrag?  Really?<br /><br />The Galad thing, I'm not convinced of.  I need to go back and do some more reading to be sure of that.<br /><br />The shaving of the head thing is just typical of the way RJ writes stuff.  I've read all the books several times, and though there are a lot of red herrings as well, its very pleasing when you reread something, and recognise how it ties in with what follows.<br /><br />Love all the posts, Keep it up.  I'm desperate for more until COT comes out.


created: 2002-07-25 03:21:05
subject: <b>Well,</b>
body:
Once again you compleley ignore my points. You ask us to name people who he trusts more in a political capacity? I say Thom, Columbo says Egwene. How's that? You ask us why he would put her there if he didn't trust her? I say, who else was there? A Cairhenien? Not likey. Without Thom there to help him play the Game of Houses, he had to do the best he could and appoint two foreigners: Rhuarc and Berelain. <br /><br />I find it quite silly that this has turned into another shouting match, and I will be the first to admit that I am not completley blameless. Why are we arguing when we seem to agree? Does Rand trust Berelain? Read my above post: YES. Does he trust her as he does egwene? No, and thgat is what this discussion is about. Perrin trusts his hammer.<br /><br />You brought up a dictionary quote, I come back with the explination of denotative and conotative meanings. You ignore. You ask Columbo and I to answer your question, we do. You ignore. You say that Rand has sent her to many of the hottest political hotspots (note the word 'sent', not the phrase 'left behind in'), I ask for an explination. You ignore. See a pattern here?<br /><br />You say 'I'm leaving this topic'. I come back with an inteligent rebuttal (except, admitedly, one on this Board when I took shots at you.). You come back talking about the last word.<br /><br />You call me 'part of a disgusting social habit'. You insinuate that your ignoring my (intelligent) posts is a favor to this board. You say that I will not stop 'even when you're wrong or don't have anything substantive or comprehensible to say.'. I come up with quality posts, such as my oft-mentioned ideas about Trust out of neccesity and the likening it to Perin and his Hammer. You ignore those, too. You tell me to get the last word in: &quot;As you must do.&quot; You then have the audacity to question MY maturity level? That is a low move without tact and an easy way to point the finger in a personal manner when my personality has nothing to do with the writings of Mr. James Oliver Rigney Jr. aka Robert Jordan. <br /><br />I know that people out there are going to look at this and say &quot;man, this guy just will not quit! He's a cancer to this board!&quot; You know why they will say that? Because you, mature Vashti, have poked and prodded me time and again with incorrect/ innacurate facts and I cannot stand to let that crap go on this board. Is standing up like this a hassle? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes. It is worth it JUST for the Noteboard messages I get saying that I'm right and to continue, along with a few others, keeping this board clean of innacurate facts. <br /><br />The message board has been ruined, for the most part, for WoT discussion. I, nor any of the others here, have any wish for this board to become another MB, and I realise that I am, by this very action, doing what I am trying to avoid. This is a general warning, not only to Vashti, but to all others to PLEASE keep crap ideas concoccted of innacurate facts off of this board. Nobody wants it here.<br /><br />Come to play with accurate facts AND an open mind, or you need not apply. Does anyone out there not agree with this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 11:05:53
subject: <b>Sanctimoniousness doesn't fit you</b>
body:
for starters:<br />p. 305 Hardcover LOC<br />&quot;She had stayed as cool as any Aes Sedai, seizing saidar when she thought he was threatening her. That was what he had to remember. Whatever clothes she wore, she wanted to be Aes Sedai, and she would keep Aes Sedai secrets even when he made it clear that he needed Elayne to insure peace in two nations.  He had to think of her as Aes Sedai.  It was saddening.&quot; <br /><br />Do I REALLY have to point out that from that point on (and even before), he has treated Egwene in precisely that manner?  He has spied on her.  He has flat-out not believed her when she has said stuff.  He has ignored her desires as expressed through 'her' emmissaries, believing (mostly correctly at the time) that she's a) a puppet, and b) doesn't have a clue of the bigger picture.<br /><br />I wish I could explain the quote, but I'm sure someone (most likely Matrimony, or others) could fill in the exact words of the exchange between Rand and Egwene elsewhere...something about buying a cat in a sack...but nothing for nothing.  That also was demonstrable evidence of his lack of trust for Egwene.<br /><br />ergo, he does NOT trust Egwene, despite his affection for her; in fact, he actively DIStrusts her.<br />End. Of. That. Story.  <br /><br />Thom?  Very, very simple.  I didn't think I had to mention it: Thom is not a political figure.  Was he a court bard? Yep, but not a lot of people know that outside of Andor.  And that's only a more dignified way of saying that the court jester is also a political figure.  He's not.  Now, if Thom went to Rand and told him that he feels he could best serve him in charge of a country, than I can imagine Rand might accommodate him and use his talents that way.  Maybe. He might find his skills and intelligence to useful as a wild card.   But to be frank, it'd be a tough sell.  Thom is not regarded as a political figure.  If he put him in charge of Ilian or something, there'd likely be another revolt (which Thom would most likely handle adeptly).  <br /><br />Remember when he and Moiraine were swapping info on each other?  He treated her comments as 'secrets'.  Again, in Andor, people would know (people in court -- 20 years is a long time, however), but beyond that? Who? Why?  And even so, he STILL would not be regarded as a political figure.  Servants also reside in palaces, but they aren't political figures either.<br /><br />Berelain IS a known political figure.  That gives her an 'in' when assigned to a political arena.  RJ has gone to enormous lengths to demonstrate how people in his books view the differences between Lords and Common Folk.  Thom is NOT perceived as a Lord.  By anyone.  He is not a political figure.  Therefore, your presentation of him as an option is fatally flawed and irrelevant.<br /><br />I'm fully aware of you discussing denotation and connotation.  I'm also aware that what you were applying it to was irrelevant.  Why do I say that?  Because the way you are using it, you are saying there is no discernible difference between an inert object (in this case, a hat), and a living organism with which one has social interaction that is also a political leader and the executor of one's will.  Careful with the use of the word 'executor'.  A hat executes the will of its wearer, but ANY hat would do the same job.  Maybe some would be more comfortable, more stylish, etc., but they'd still keep the sun off his head.<br /><br />That is NOT the case with &quot;any living organism with which one has social interaction that is also a political leader and the executor of one's will.&quot;  In other words, Weiramon would NOT be just as acceptable an alternative as Berelain. Padron Niall also would not have been, nor Couladin, nor Rahvin after he took over in Andor.  <br /><br />And, of course, this is ALL irrelevant.  My point that people took issue with was my saying that Berelain was &quot;A chief advisor.&quot;  Not 'THE' chief advisor, but merely one of the few.  Nothing either of you has said has countered that in the smallest way.<br /><br />The weird thing is, in trying to demonstrate connotation and denotation, you failed to demonstrate your own grasp of the concept in your examples, despite beating your chest about the intelligence of your words.  Frankly, I didn't think this needed to be pointed out, but then if you are so ignorant as to keep trying to sell such a broken idea, others may be ignorant enough to overlook it.<br /><br />Lastly, for you to natter on about the tone of this board is the height of hypocrisy.  The partnership of Columbo and Green Gaidin has defined itself as incendiary, insulting and muck-raking.  When it got too excessive, I matched it, in an explained effort of pushing it to the point where it had to break.  And it did.  You two settled down with the insults.  But do NOT be so shameless as to plug yourself as the protectors of decency and clean discourse! That's just about the lamest, most twisted thing I've seen here.<br /><br />The amusing part is how you yet again contradict yourself.  By assigning yourself the mantle of Champion Against Crap Ideas, you of course assign yourself the assumption of always being right.  In telling people to have &quot;an open mind&quot; (quotes used to show that I'm using someone's words; in this case, yours), you demonstrate that your mind is closed.  Only GG knows what is true, accurate and worthwhile!  But everyone else should have an open mind!  <br /><br />Check the DENOTATION and CONNOTATION of your last note.  If you truly mean what you say, then I trust we'll not see anything else from you on this board?  After all, you don't live up to the standards you insist upon.<br /><br />Are we going to do this again, GG? Am I going to have to bust you up again?  You're starting to get frisky...are we starting again?


created: 2002-07-25 12:45:40
subject: <b>Vashti.......</b>
body:
I will make this short and simple for you to understand. Okay.  Pay attention now.<br /><br />BERELAIN IS NOT A CHIEF ADVISOR!  SHE IS A TOOL!  BERELAIN IS A BABYSITTER!  DO YOU UNDERSTAND VASHTI?  REMEMBER IF YOU CAN WHEN YOU WERE 4 AND YOUR PARENTS WENT OUT FOR DINNER AND LEFT YOU WITH A BABYSITTER?  YOUR PARENTS LEFT INSTRUCTIONS FOR HOW TO CARE FOR YOU WHILE THEY WENT OUT! DO YOU UNDERSTAND VASHTI?  BERELAIN IS A BABYSITTER!!!<br /><br />IS THAT SHORT AND SIMPLE ENOUGH FOR YOU?<br /><br />COLUMBO IS ON THE CASE!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 14:02:38
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
Great Columbo! That's easy enough for a four year old to understand! It's the perfect way of putting it, but don't worryu. I'm sure Vashti, who may or may no understand it, will just ignore your point or twist it. THOM couldn't run a country? Whatever you say. How do you think Morgase got the Throne? Who kept the knife out of Rand's back in Tear when he was an ignorant shepherd? Who ran the country there? You see, Rand could have left Thom there to give orders to WHOEVER if Thom was available, including Rhuarc and Berelain. If you do not agree with Rhuarc and Berelain being appointed there because they were outlanders, can you just tell me A) why they WERE then appointed to run a non-native country?, and B) because they were the only ones there that were even viable as an option?<br /><br />I will ask again: WHERE HAS RAND 'SENT' BERELAIN (note: Not 'left behind') to a political hotspot? Will you respond to it, or just ignore itonce again? Never mind, I think I already know the answer to that.<br /><br />Your whole argument is flawed. I am sorry to do this, but could you PLEASE tell me where Rand ASKED for Berelain's advice. By this I mean advice moreso than any WOMAN would give. Such as: &quot;Don't offend Aes Sedai.&quot; Wow. That is an incredible peice of advice. I guess you're right. Hell, Berelain is as trusted as Lan. Rand values her opinion (Now THAT'Z Sarcasm.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Read your last paragraph in your above post. You &quot;busting me up&quot;? You know what? I think I've heard that before. Yeah, I DID ghewar that before. From a 12 year old gangbanger on Maury Povich. I think that speaks volumes on your maturity level. <br /><br />Thanks for your time, Vashti. Next, we'll be hearing about the time Vashti put Mike Tyson in the hospital. &quot;You, had ME?&quot; lol....lol...lol... Do you REALLY think you could match me? There's no such thing as a ta'varen in real life, but even if you were, I feel we would be on even ground here. rinse and repeat; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now I'll leave it to you to get the last word in; I'm tired of arguing with you. It's like arguing with a twelve year old if not in intelligence, then maturity level, and I believe that you have more than shown that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 15:13:53
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
Let me put it this way:<br /><br />The fact that you (both, now) so profoundly misunderstand some very fundamental character interaction and motivation, as well as basic plot elements, calls into question just about anything you say.<br /><br />I was only going to write this to Columbo, but then GG chimes in, in complete agreement.  <br /><br />I've provided quotes.  I've provided references to places in the books.  You have done none of that.  I find myself prompted to explain some things I didn't believe needed explaining...such as expecting that you do understand that Rand doesn't trust Aes Sedai in general.  (Uhhh...you DO understand that, don't you?) <br /><br />Somewhere along the line, you will both realize that when you have nothing to say, or are so completely wrong, it is NOT wise to degenerate into insults and screaming.  It is, actually, worthwhile at times to say, &quot;Hmmm...I was wrong.&quot;  I have.  It's possible.  if you're doing it vocally, you have to purse up your lips and press your tongue to your back teeth.  Or, if you type it, the 'w' is just above and a little to the left of the 's' (a popular key). <br /><br />I really have nothing further to say on this.  GG, you misquoted me (again).  You do this so frequently that it must be deliberate.  So I won't deign to respond to it.  I'm sure in your mind you think you've shot me down and feel all puffed up and clever.  Knock yourself out.  If it makes you feel good, by all means do so. Buh-bye.


created: 2002-07-26 02:26:04
subject: <b>I don't usually comment here, I just like reading theories</b>
body:
but I have to say that the stuff going on here is just ridiculous. in the past while we've all seen GG and vashti go at it. what I don't understand is why, you, vashti keep talking about how you whooped him. sorry pal but you got wasted. just like he wasted you on the galad thing. I actually agreed with some of the things that vashti was saying in the past and he usually has well thought out responses but it seems that whenever GG enters the building he goes coo-coo. vashti, dude, I hate to break it to you but you are chasing your tail in this argument. theyve answered your questions but you cant play with these guys. thats not to say that GG is blameless either, but at least he doesnt go around insulting peoples intelligences when it is in no way warranted. please, the both of you, stop arguing on this board. I think that I can safely speak for all of us when I say that reading arguments takes away from this part of the site. so please, vashti, cut the 'holier than thou' atitude when youre trying to grasp at straws and GG please just let him rant on so that you guys dont have to argue any more.


created: 2002-07-26 09:43:19
subject: <b>Stuff you haven't seen</b>
body:
When we've taken it off list, I've sent GG comprehensive notes of where he flat-out contradicted himself, made errors, and incorrectly read what was actually written (i.e., he'd say one thing, when what was said was something completely different).  <br /><br />Out of curiousity, how do you figure they 'answered my questions'?  I mean, they wrote words in response, but how do you figure they're accurate?  Do you think Rand trusts Egwene?  I've given a flood of evidence.  Direct quotes from the book.  So far all we've seen in response is that she used to be his girlfriend (for those of you who've had them...sometimes trust isn't a factor in ex-relationships).<br /><br />Instead of riding coat-tails, put up your own argument.  And as for Galad...I submit to you: whom has he beaten? Dude...proof.  You have to have proof.  Just because he looks real good doesn't mean he's the best. Don't do what GG has done:  conveniently forget that I DO acknowledge that Galad is likely in the top half-dozen and have several times.  But the best? No.  Not until he proves it. <br /><br />I've whipped him by getting him to stop his flaming, or at least severely curtail it.  I've whipped him by poking holes in his comments.  Shouting them doesn't make them accurate.  I've whipped him by demonstrating his extreme inconsistency.  To be blunt, most of what he says is bluster, presented so forcefully and followed up by insults and flames, that people don't challenge the holes.  I do.  Successfully.


created: 2002-07-28 21:12:13
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
Is something burning???? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 16:20:01
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
lets agree to disagree on this and move on.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-11 23:14:45
subject: <b>Ahem.</b>
body:
At some point above, amidst the bickering, there was a quote mentioned by... Vashti, I believe?  something about a cat and a hat.  Well, Dr. Seuss aside, I know the quote you mean.  Rand is trying to get Egwene to tell him where the rebel Aes Sedai are, so he can find Elayne.  Egwene won't tell him because she swore to Nynaeve and Elayne not to, but Rand's ta'veren-ness makes her almost tell anyway.  She embraces saidar to try to quell the urge to confess the rebel location, and Rand gets pissed, because he can feel the tingling and thinks she's afraid of him, that he'll hurt her.  <br /><br />   &quot;His anger was swallowed by a maddening grin; it was frightening how quickly that could happen with him.  'A cat for a hat, or a hat for a cat,' he quoted.<br />   But nothing for nothing, she finished mentally.  She had heard Taren Ferry folk say that when she was a girl.  'You can put your cat in your hat and stuff it down your breeches, Rand al'Thor,' she told him coldly.&quot;<br />                 Ch. 18, LoC, A Taste of Solitude<br /><br />Even though she won't tell him about Salidar, she still wants his help with the Wise Ones.  They aren't afraid or wary of each other yet, but Rand has become cynical (wise?) enough to know not to give out favors for nothing.  Just thought you might like to know about the quote.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 18:25:01
subject: <b>Rand doesn't trust Egwene...</b>
body:
... not even a little bit.  Vashti has demonstrated this point with several quotes and examples from the books that I will not bother to repeat.<br /><br />What hotspots has Rand sent Berelain to?  How about Ghealdan, to negotiate with Alliandre and to advise Perrin.  Okay that's not the same as keeping her around to advise himself, but Rand doesn't keep any advisors near himself since Moiraine (until Cadsuane in WH).<br /><br />It was clearly stated in the books that Berelain was in charge in Cairhien and Rhuarc was to advise her.  The Wise Ones would not have subverted her authority because they liked her (and maybe saw her as some kind of protoge).<br /><br />Clearly Rand has placed a lot of trust in Berelain.  The fact that he sent her to Ghealdan confirms it.  Remember that he keeps the people he doesn't trust nearby.<br /><br />Politically, he trusts Berelain, Dobraine, Darlin, and some guy in Illian (Gregorin?).  Sure, he probably trusts Thom just as much, but that doesn't negate the fact that he trusts Berelain which therefore gives her some power and influence.  That was Vashti's point...<br /><br />By the way, Thom couldn't rule a city or country because of his lack of status.  What he could do is work behind the scenes to support someone else (as he did for Rand in Tear at the beginning of TSR).  Amounts to almost the same thing.<br /><br />As to the actual theory:  I think the &quot;Paendrag&quot; issues suggests some interaction between Berelain and the Seanchan.  I wouldn't read too much into the hair thing, but it could be foreshadowing...  It was interesting anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 16:14:53
subject: <b>I don't know if this has been mentioned yet...</b>
body:
Alright, I'm not 100% sure how Daughter of the Nine Moons works (does it have to literally be the Emperor(ess)'s daughter or can someone be taken as the daughter and take the title), but what if Berelain could be somehow put in that position.  Think about it: the only ta'veren she never went after was Mat because they were too much alike.  Does that mean they could NEVER be a couple?  And as for the man in white viewing, someone has mentioned that white is the funeral color for Two Rivers people, so if someone close to Mat dies, couldn't he wear white just as easily as Perrin could?  I somehow think that Mat would much rather marry Berelain than Tuon...


created: 2002-11-07 22:25:11
subject: <b>possibility</b>
body:
the two bald comments, they count as foreshadowing.<br />the seanchan can probably verify tyrn's story, if it's true, it could be that he knew they would eventually return, and didn't want to get into a war with the seanchan. also, if true, berelain would qualify as a high lady of the blood, at least.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 11:44:44
subject: <b>Nice idea,</b>
body:
but I don't buy it.  Your evidence is mostly circumstantial.  For example, there are many reasons why Theodrin could be caged during the siege of Tar Valon.  Perhaps for impersonating an AS.  The Tower AS would definitely do this.  Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best.<br /><br />As for tapping her lip, I've been known to tap my lip at times.  It doesn't make me a Forsaken.  Or does it.  Muah, ha ha! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because she likes boys doesn't mean she wouldn't prefer to be a brown AS.  If she choose Red, I'd see your point, but we don't know enough of Theodrin's history to know what she prefers.  She is described as very passive however, not a Green trait, but a Brown.<br /><br />As for her being in Egwene's camp, and Romanda's.  She is spying on Romanda for Egwene.  That's why Faolin is in Lelaine's camp.  It's politics.<br /><br />Also, Brown sister's tend to dress drab, so the bronze pattern would argue against Theodrin, who probably dresses more humbly.<br /><br />You have some interesting points, but you really have nothing to back it up.  Personally, I think Mesanna is in the same category as Demandred.  We won't be able to figure out who they are until Jordan straight out tells us.  Then everyone will be able to say we knew all along.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just my two cents.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-16 12:00:02
subject: <b>Interesting points. Esp on the Icon</b>
body:
Just ran through the chapter. Besides them mentioning Moggy and her ideas, there was nothing else vaguely Forsaken in there. What if Tarna is Mesaana, if Galina beat her block out of her, then she may have been Black.<br /><br />Anyway, fairly good points.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 12:17:56
subject: <b>Whats Jordan cooking?</b>
body:
I am not so sure of 2 Demandreds and 2 Messana's.<br />The forsaken have such a hard time keeping 1 identity.<br />She could be as Theodrin with the rebels. Though I doubt it.<br /><br />Mesaana = Danelle  : Submitted by Ruriha kinda covers why she could be Danelle.<br />Though I doubt it as well.<br /><br />She knows that the real power lies in the Tower.<br />She has to be with the Tower and in a position where if the rebels come back she still retains it.<br />She has to be in a position where she has access to all Aes Sedai<br /><br />I have always favoured Laras as being Mesaana. Who better than the Mistress of Kitchens.<br />She has access to all not just Aes Sedia but Accepted and Novices as well.<br />She could always slip something into their food.<br />Also fits in with the fact that Alviarin cannot sense the ability to channel in her - possibly a side effect of her disguise.<br />And it has been said that Laras can't channel at all.<br />By freeing Suin and Leane she is also setup if the rebels win.<br />And by setting them free she is adding to the chaos like the Dark One wants.<br />Here is a small summary on the two characters.<br /><br />Mesaana<br />Born Saine Tarasind, she is a female Forsaken who hides in the White Tower. She is described as a tall woman of dark shadow and silver light, who has a habit of tapping her steepled forefingers against her lips. She was once denied a place in the Collam Daan, and thus relegated to teaching. <br />Alviarin cannot sense the ability to channel in her - possibly a side effect of her disguise, which is woven of the Power. She now has the Black Ajah under her, ordering Alviarin directly. She helped Be'lal set up the trap to capture Rand in Tear, but has otherwise kept a low profile.<br /><br />Laras<br />Fat Mistress of the Kitchens at Tar Valon.<br />She carries a long-handled wooden spoon like a scepter, using it to direct and order people about, even smacking someone who is not working hard enough (she believes work builds character), but never to stir anything with.<br />She is completely loyal to the Tower. When she was young she was willowy, beautiful and flirtatious. She had many adventures, almost getting herself hanged.<br /><br />1 + 1 = 2.5<br />I think thats how theories work<br />Need I say more...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />Only the dead can afford oblivion<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 12:19:39
subject: <b>Interesting theory, and some good points...</b>
body:
...except about Moridin being Taim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 13:09:42
subject: <b>Good Idea......</b>
body:
But there really isn't any evidence.  Everyone tries to use the &quot;lip-tapping&quot; as evidence for Mesaana, but I seem to remember AT LEAST 6 women who tap their lips (including SS, whom we KNOW isn't Mesaana).  I agree that the Forsaken are probably all trying to &quot;play both sides&quot;, and Mesaana may be in Salidar, but there's just not enough evidence to support that, yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Throughout history, when people get wood, I want them to think of Trojans&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Ned Flanders, aka The King Troy<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> &quot;That's no Moon...&quot; &quot;Here, let me hike those up for ya&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 13:28:36
subject: <b>Point by Point</b>
body:
<b>Forsaken don't do just one thing at a time - like Moridin saying he's playing both sides of the board. The best tacticians among the Forsaken make each plot serve several purposes...</b><br /><br />The Forsaken each have different styles.  Their seems to be 3 modes of Forsaken operation.<br /><br /><ol><li>Ordering DF and minions directly (numerous examples.)</li><br /><li>creating characters or impersonating other people for short periods of time at a time. (Examples: Selene, Jasin Nataal)</li><br /><li>creating a <b>full time</b> character (Ex.  Lord Brend, Anath.)</li></ol><br /><br />All Forsaken dabble in the first 2 I believe.  It is very important to distinguish between case 2 and case 3, though.  Theodrin is a full time (24/7) character!  If Mesaana was Theodrin she might be able to find some time to dabble in the WT, but not much.  There is no way that any Forsaken can have 2 24/7 characters as you seem to suggest here.<br /><br /> <b>...IMO, these same Forsaken also like to have two bases at once. I blelieve that just as Moridin is also Taim, and Demandred is with both the Whitecloaks (Probably as Einor Saren) and the Prophet (say as one of Masema's advisors), so Mesaana is with BOTH the White Tower (say as Danelle) and also with the Salidar Aes Sedai as Theodrin. It's her role to waste the AS in internal strife so they can't help Rand. This is best done by being in both camps.</b><br /><br />Forsaken do have more than one base.  There is no way they can do a full time impersonation of 2 people at once though.  I think there is fairly strong evidence that Mesaana is impersonating someone in the Tower close to full time.  She probably does dabble in the SAS camp but only through BA and short term impostering (Tarna?).<br /><br /><b>Evidence: <br /><br />1. Theodrin is a lip-tapper (like Mesaana). Incidentally, Danelle is not described as being one.</b><br /><br />A poor way to start.  It is better to put the strongest piece of evidence first.  Lip tapping is hardly unique.<br /><br /><b>2. Min had a Viewing in the White Tower of an apple-cheeked Accepted being caged as part of the White Tower battle (TFOH). Why would an Accepted be caged at this time except for questioning and death a la Forsaken (done by Mesaana and BA)? Theodrin is consistently described as an apple-cheeked Accepted.</b><br /><br />Interesting.  I like the connection.  (There really aren't that many accepted so it is possible.)  On the other hand, Min's visions are usually pretty specific when it comes to death.  I doubt Mesaana will simply cage Theodrin without killing her.  <br /><br /><b>3. It is suspect that Theodrin never dobbed in Nynaeve for eavesdropping on Tarna's meeting with Sheriam's 6 in LOC Ch 12. Are Nynaeve and Elayne useful for the Shadow?</b><br /><br />It may be curious, but not suspicious.<br /><br /><b>4. In next chapter, LOC, Ch. 13, there is a Forsaken icon. The only characters in this chapter are Nynaeve, Elayne, Tarna and Theodrin.</b><br /><br />Well Tarna is an interesting candidate.  That same chapter does mention that Moggy hid under the bed, though.  It could be that simple.<br /><br /><b>5. Even though Domani Theodrin was very keen on the guys in the White Tower and before - they inspired her to channel as a wilder - she chose Brown Ajah rather than Green when in Salidar. Brown suits Mesaana's character, not Theodrin's. As a Brown, (as is Danelle in WT) she'd wear bronze skirts - like Alviarin saw in ACOS. That would be handy if you're flitting between 2 places.</b><br /><br />I disagree, it is the inconsistencies that give people character.  The fact that she chooses Brown reveals another side of her character.  It is possible that Mesaana may choose to be Brown, but not necessary.  (Her cruel streak is close that of some reds.)  Second, being a brown is hardly damning evidence. <br /><br /><b>6. Even though Theodrin is stronger in the Power than Faolain, she lets Faolain take the lead. This is out of character for an Aes Sedai.</b><br /><br />Again, I think this reveals another side of Theodrin rather than being inconsistent.<br /><br /><b>7. Graendal hears Mesaana saying she is in the White Tower, but that doesn't mean she isn't secretly with Salidar Aes Sedai as well. No one really knows where Dem is either. It would be just like RJ to let us think each Forsaken is just in one place when far more is really going on.</b><br /><br />I agree.  I just don't feel Mesaana is impersonating a character that is in the SAS camp 24/7.<br /><br /><b>8. Theodrin tries not very capably to break Nynaeve's block. Considering she had a block broken herself, she has to know how great a shock it needs.</b><br /><br />Breaking a block is not an easy process.  By all indications Theodrin tried very hard to break Nynaeve's block.<br /><br /><b>9. As for Mesaana being in the White Tower all the time and overhearing everything that's going on with Elaida, I think she uses truth weaves like the Wise Ones, but inverted, when Alviarin reports. She knows when Alviarin believes she is telling all in her reports, but Mesaana knew no more of the exact wording of Elaida's Foretelling than Alviarin did. Therefore she didn't eavesdrop on Elaida as Alviarin thinks (ACOS prologue).</b><br /><br />The truth weave?  What truth weave?   Granted, Mesaana could be using compulsion on Mesaana as well to learn the truth.  You do make an interesting point.<br /><br /><b>As Theodrin, Mesaana is taken for granted by other Sisters and so can learn a lot of what Salidar Aes Sedai are planning. She has attached herself to Romanda (despite their different Ajahs) and to Egwene. The downside is that it took her a while to get established and get information and some influence in the Hall. But then it took a while for Hall to get influence also.</b><br /><br />As mentioned above, she attached herself to Romanda at Egwene's request.   <br /><br /><b>True, Arangar arrived in Salidar in LOC, Ch. 30. Arangar came to take charge of Hall at first and then eventually of someone thought to have the real power in Salidar. At that stage none of the other Forsaken except Osangar and Moridin knew who Arangar was. This is a good way for DO's plans to be advanced without Mesaana trying to bend them to suit her own plans.</b><br /><br />Good point.  I do believe the DO will want to spread out the Forsaken as much as possible, though.  They have a lot of territory to cover. <br /><br /><b>There appear to be too many factions in Salidar for one Forsaken to control: Egwene&#8217;s inner circle, Sheriam's 6, Romanda, Lelaine, and the Black Ajah. Theodrin never seems to have contacted Delana once the Hall had real power in Salidar (by about LOC, Ch. 30). Arangar arrives at this time... I believe Mesaana is using Theodrin to get info more than influence, perhaps leaving Hall for Arangar.</b><br /><br />This assumes Arangar and Mesaana are working together.  I don't know if that is a valid assumption.<br /><br /><b>If you doubt the Forsaken are working in this way, remember it takes a lot of effort to take over the world. The competition between Forsaken to get more area for themselves than the others ensures that they'll try for two areas at once. As for playing both sides of the board, as Moridin says, it ensures you'll win. Besides, it's also so ...chaotic.</b><br /><br />I agree.<br /><br /><b>I think the Forsaken have to work hard for their immortality - the DO demands it. Looking at it another way, they need to be immortal to do as much has they do. Maybe the link to the DO is a little like a Warder's bond as far as fatigue goes.</b><br /><br />We have seen no evidence of this that I can see.<br /><br /><b>Anyway, that's what I think is really going on with Mesaana and the other Forsaken.</b><br /><br /><b>Sorry about the length.</b><br /><br />There is no reason to apologize for the length.  I don't mind long theories as long as they are interesting.  I personally feel this is more of a MB quality post, but I enjoyed reading the entire thing.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 16:28:52
subject: <b>Not Bad.....</b>
body:
I also believe that some of the forsaken use several identities.  Demandred with the Whitecloaks and Dragonsworn is a likely possibility.  Mordin as Taim??  I'm not sold on that one....  <br /><br />Messana is definatley Danelle in the White Tower.  Is she also Theodrin?  I think as you've pointed out its very possible.  I also disagree with others that suggest these two positions are 24/7.  I think Messana could play both parts as I believe her part as Danelle is not that demanding on her time.<br /><br />Good theory!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 16:57:28
subject: <b>Theodrin theory rebuttal</b>
body:
In order for Messana to be Theodrin, she would have had to kill her and take on her likeness.  If this is true, then ANY individual can be a Forsaken and all the theories about who is whom are blown away.  Theodrin was already an Accepted when the Forsaken broke free from Shayol Ghul, so unless she went to visit her sick mother somewhere, (and do you really think the Tower would let her go?) she has been in the Tower and known by Sheriam, at the very least, since before Messana could have infultrated herself in the Tower.  So, since she is known and recognised by the Aes Sedai she trained under, she cannot be Messana.  If she is, then Demandred could be Bashere, or even Mat or Perrin.  I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 17:29:34
subject: <b>geoff_mc...</b>
body:
Some of the Forsaken couldn't be just anybody; they could only be people whose heads we haven't been in (no point of veiw from them). We have been in Mat and Perrins heads many times and know they walk in the light. I know you were just making a joke mentioning those two, but I thought it worth mention.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 19:59:42
subject: <b>I must disagree.</b>
body:
Your evidence isn't all too convincing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 22:04:18
subject: <b>Theodrin looks possible</b>
body:
I think a lot of your arguments are good, but I also had the initial reaction about time constraints.<br /> However, it wouldn't surprise me if Mesaana has links to the WT, so she can be seen to be active there, whilst not actually residing there at all.  This could be quite an effective ploy in protecting herself from other Chosen.<br /> For this to work she must have had some means of monitoring Alviarin's activities, perhaps an inverted ward on her study, or some such, but it would explain why she taught Alviarin how to Travel, and might also explain some of Alviarin's recent absences from the WT...<br /> I like this idea, but can only see it as likely if Moridin is unaware of where she is really hiding.  Aran'gar is the perfect agent for Salidar, as no one can detect her channeling, now that Logain is gone.<br /> And who knows...maybe she is masquerading as Danelle in her spare time, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 22:28:44
subject: <b>geoff mc...</b>
body:
Sorry to burst your bubble....... MASK OF MIRRORS, MASK OF MIRRORS, MASK OF MIRRORS. OR  TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE.  THEODRIN IS ALIVE AND IN SALIDAR.  PAY ATTENTION NOW.  MESSANA PRETENDS TO BE THEODRIN ON RARE OCASSIONS,  SOMETHING LIKE WHAT LANFEAR DID IN THE WT LONG, LONG TIME AGO, NOT SOMETHING NEW.<br /><br />There are several ways.<br /><br />Sorry,<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 22:59:29
subject: <b>Of Laras, Mesaana, Tarna and bronze skirts</b>
body:
I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the Theodrin theory, for the many reasons so eloquently stated above (the 24/7 problem, Egwene's request that she go with Romanda, the fact that Theodrin gave breaking Nynaeve's block a good try (remember, it required a near-death experience to be broken!) After reading the various posts, I have a few comments:<br />First of all, I reeeeally don't think Laras is Mesaana.  Unless we want to believe that she too has been knocked off and replaced.  That she uses the spoon to &quot;encourage&quot; just means she runs a tight ship (ugh, fishing metaphor, go away SS).  She takes Min under her wing, when Mesaana couldn't possibly have known yet about Min's abilities.  That motherly-ness doesn't sound too Mesaana-esque.  <br />I'm more apt to believe Mesaana is Danelle.  Remember, in aCoS, when Alviarin is running frantically (for her) down the stairs after Elaida's foretelling, she thinks to herself how everyone is stopping to acknowledge her - EVERYONE except DANELLE.  Sure, chalk it up to dreaminess, but even Alviarin thinks its weird.  Mesaana, with her Forsaken-esque sense of greatness, wouldn't think to bow.  <br />Ok, so that's kind of weak, but I digress.<br />Next, Tarna is almost for sure black (anyone who claims to have been block-beaten by Galina is surely black), and while she could be Mesaana on a spring excursion, I doubt it.<br />Finally, bronze skirts.  Being Brown does not mean you necessarily wear only brown, or bronze, so the fact that Theodrin (or Danelle, to be honest) are brown, doens't mean they'd necessarily wear bronze.  Just think of Nynaeve.  She's Yellow, but aside from her shawl, she usually wears blue or green, because that's what Lan likes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 01:18:49
subject: <b>Whoa Columbo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
The man has no mercy for the uninformed! lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 08:41:19
subject: <b>A shorter versionof RabidWombat</b>
body:
His point by point has good rebuttals.  The theory just doesn't stand on its that well, even before the rebuttal begins.  5 points (numbered after the original theory ((good system by the way)).):<br />5.  We never knew Theodrin well enough in the Tower to characterize her.  We learned that one tale of her as a novice and met her in tDR.  Nothing in-between.  Also, why would a Foresaken waste time guarding a runaway Accepted?<br />6.  Faolain is Blue.  Blues tend to take charge in political situations, just like Grays tend to be more assertive in negotiations or in matters of law.<br />8.  Theodrin tries really hard to break Nyneave.  She even gets slapped.  Mesaana wouldn't take a slapping and the Illusion she wove would have revealed differences then.  Also, Theodrin's block was broken by distraction and shock.  She tries the same with Nynaeve.<br />9.  Truth weave?  What is that?  Also, Alvarian did not report trivial matters and paraphrased conversations at first, but Mesaana knew she was leaving out minor details.  Even this mysterious truth weave you describe couldn't detect that.  Finally, the Foresaken can be lied to.  See Mat lying to Ravhin in tDR.  <br />Nice try but no real hard evidence there to support it.  Mesaana contacting BA among rebels?  Yes!  Being a rebel part-time?  No!<br />Woody


created: 2002-07-22 10:22:47
subject: <b>in my opinion...</b>
body:
i just think that theodrin being mesaana in disguise is just pushing the envelope... back it up more with evidence that concretizes your theory...<br /><br />the theory sounds good since there are relatively few mesaana theories out there...<br /><br />i just think theodrin was just too busy being an accepted... working for egwene and all and at the same time be messing with the tower power struggles...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 02:48:16
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
I agree totally.  And what about Theodrin ordering Nynaeve not to sleep that night (LOC, Chap 13) maybe Theodrin was trying to break Nynaeve's block, but maybe she just wanted to keep Nynaeve out of Tel'aran'riod for some reason.<br /><br />Also, when Theodrin catches Nynaeve eavesdropping, there is another woman looking at them from a second story window--could this women be Halima(Aran'gar) reconizing Mesaana?<br /><br />Just something to think about.


created: 2002-07-18 11:17:38
subject: <b>This theory is backwards</b>
body:
Could it not be that the Ajahs choose the new Amyrlin based on:<br /><br />1) External events: Elaida chosen because the WT needed a Red Ajah Amyrlin to offset the Black Tower.<br /><br />2) Internal events: Suian/Egwene chosen young because the more experienced sisters felt it too risky to be Amyrlin (Black Ajah killing AS before Suian chosen, all rebel AS want to keep option to return to Tower open so they put an Accepted up for Amyrlin).<br /><br />3) Politics: It suits the Aes Sedai to have a Red on the Seat after a Blue apparently secretly involved herself with the Dragon Reborn and hid the info from the Tower. Additionally, Aes Sedai such as Alviarin have different goals than WT as a whole. And of course some Amyrlins are chosen because the Sitters think they can influence her behind the scenes.<br /><br />4) Freedom: Cadsuane is very qualified to lead, but she desires freedom to act. She would be Amyrlin if she wanted to be.<br /><br />Granted, everything in the story is thrown up by the pattern one way or another, but the Amyrlin need not always be chosen by the pattern. It's quite possible the pattern needed an advisor for Egwene (Suian) more than a qualified Amyrlin in the Tower, so Suian was stilled to get her out of the Tower, not to achieve a Red Amyrlin...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 11:39:53
subject: <b>Hmm....just a clarification</b>
body:
Egwene is not actually green. She posed as a Green once, but she truly has no Ajah, at least not yet. Now, as for whether or not she'll choose Green...it is likely, but I can think of reasons why she would join a couple other Ajahs as well<br /><br />But other than that...I like the theory. It's quite intriguing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 12:29:23
subject: <b>Egwene's Ajah</b>
body:
Acutally, listening to her talk, she sounded more like a Blue than anything else.  Her main concern is reuniting the Tower and bringing the nations into line in order to fight TG.  Sounds like a cause for a meddling Blue.<br />Love the theory though.  Really solid reasoning.  I suspect that you could trace it back further if you wanted.<br />Woody


created: 2002-07-18 12:56:16
subject: <b>Kinghomer - you just proved the point</b>
body:
In your first example, you stated that the White Tower raised a Red Ajah Amyrlin to counter the Black Tower. Yet at the time of Elaida's raising and the rebellion, the Black Tower didn't exist yet.<br /><br />The rebellion happened in Chapter 47 of TSR, while we only learned about the amnesty and the beginnings of the Black Tower in the first couple of chapters of LoC.<br /><br />So, did the wheel raise a Red so she would be in place to counter the Black Tower when it arose?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 13:20:38
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
I think you are giving the wheel too much credit.  As RJ has stated the wheel is not sentient.  From my perspective I think of it in a vein similar to evolution.  In evolution solutions to problems are found by almost an almost completely random and unthinking process of trial and error.  This process works.  But, it more often than not produces solutions that are completely different than the solutions that we as rational humans would come up with. <br /><br />I don't think the pattern cares a bit what Ajah the WT is.  Its only concern is going from point A to point B.  It doesn't care how it will get there, only that it must.  It will explore many different paths where little things are tweaked randomly.  The path that works is the one that is taken.  An example of this is Rand picking Dashiva (by seemingly random).  This was critical because it allowed Flinn to learn enough healing to heal Rand in CoS.  (Probably a little ta'veren action there as well.)  But is this action (the pull of the pattern for Rand to choose Dashiva) something a rational thinking pattern would do.  I don't think so.<br /><br />I think that your solution to the pattern's dilemna is probably too simple and too rational.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 14:59:32
subject: <b>I don't buy it</b>
body:
I think the theory is a little bit farfetched. I think you have very little evidence to support it. The about the Black Tower does not suffice.<br /><br />Besides, are not Amyrlins chosen for life (I may be wrong here, though)?<br />Then it is improbable that Nynaeve would succeed her.<br /><br />Egwene will be the most powerful and long-lived Amyrlin ever, I think.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 17:05:36
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
though I really don't see any evidence to support it.<br /><br />I did thik it was relevant enough to point out that Egwene is really the first to truly be &quot;of no Ajah&quot; since she was put in as Amyrlin before choosing an Ajah. As pointed out, she may be acting like a blue because she wants to unite the tower, but after all, healing the tower is logical because of its history, so she may actually be displaying her &quot;of all Ajahs&quot;-ness.<br /><br />She also has a good connection with the Aiel WO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 20:51:04
subject: <b>I don't agree</b>
body:
The wheel isn't sentient and I don't think it controls what is going on like that. I got the impression that the wheel just spins out the pattern which is what happens and that the only way the wheel tries to control things is by spining out Taveren. Also, the only way I see Nynaeve as Amyrlin Seat is Egwene dieing prematurely or being taken out of office which neither has a chance in my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love animated smilies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 04:17:34
subject: <b>Egwene won't have an ajah</b>
body:
The Amyrlin is of all, yet of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Since she never WAS an AS b4 being amyrlin, chances are she will never have to choose an ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 08:13:56
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
<br />Since the Black Ajah have been around for 2000 years or so, and we have seen how possible it is for Sitters, and, indeed, the Keeper of the Chronicles, to be Black, could there have been Black Ajah Amyrlins?<br /><br />If so, then why would the Wheel choose/allow the choice of a Black Amyrlin?  <br /><br />Other than that, it's an interesting idea<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 11:26:31
subject: <b>What evidence have we seen of Black Amyrlins?</b>
body:
As you say, it would be odd if with all the other such successes they've had, there were no Black Amyrlins.  So it is odd.  Unless, of course, the reason there have been no Black Amyrlins is because the Wheel decided so.<br /><br />OTOH, if anyone can prove that there <i>has</i> been a Black Amyrlin, it probably would pretty much disprove the theory, unless perhaps it came at a time when the Amyrlin was only a puppet of the Hall or something like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 16:43:13
subject: <b>Reunification...</b>
body:
...would be the forte of Grays, actually, not Blues.<br /><br />Grays are the diplomats, and reunifying the White Tower and bringing the nations together sounds precisely like what they do.<br /><br />Mind you, I'm not saying Egwene will be a Gray, just that the style described is VERY Gray.  I think she won't be one at all.<br /><br />Remember her Accepted test?  She told her 'Keeper' (NOT Sheriam) that she never chose an Ajah. Who was that Keeper again? Beonwin?  something like that?  It's notable that there's someone we've never met who had a key position in that vision.  I don't know how to take, but its' food for thought.


created: 2002-07-20 09:03:08
subject: <b>its true...</b>
body:
that egwene never chose an ajah but wasnt there something in her accepted test that made her think Green?  immediately after her test she began asking alanna (i believe it was) about what it meant to be green and then started posing as a green.  she may never be green (or blue, or grey or white etc..) in truth but in her heart i think she is green.  battle ajah suits her too.  and at TG the skills she learned with the Seanchan could be useful.  If as amirilyn she actually is on the scene with TG and not locked up in the tower.  Sorry, i got off subject with that one.  Dont know if this theory is correct but it raises a point.  Nynaeve wont be Amirilyn.  She will be busy being queen of Malkier.


created: 2002-07-20 20:06:47
subject: <b>Thanks!</b>
body:
Thanks to all who gave their comments to my &quot;theory&quot;, both for and against. Don't worry I'll try to do more &quot;research&quot; about everything that you have stated. But as I've said in my original post, I am unfamiliar with the roster of the Amyrlins. Maybe I just have to stretch a little further.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind.&quot; -- E.Morrison, ToP <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 01:18:05
subject: <b>Kyrr...</b>
body:
Actually Nyn won't be the queen of Malkier. Remember the rules about the tests. &quot;no one knows what they are, possibly what would of happend, or could of. But they are not what will happen.&quot; or some such drivle. I don't have my books on me, but it is said when one of the girls asks what the archways do. Thus Malkier will not be reborn, and Nyn will not be queen (her last test).


created: 2002-07-24 17:42:06
subject: <b>Skald</b>
body:
I was thinking that the accepted test could be or could not be real, true etc...  that it was unknown for certain.  but in any event it doesnt seem to me too far fetched to think that when tg is won, the blight will recede and lan will be able to reclaim his homeland.  that would be cool too wouldnt it?


created: 2002-07-24 18:55:04
subject: <b>`asmodean - i think you're oversimplifying</b>
body:
To say that the Pattern or the Wheel,or however you're looking at it, wanted a Red Amyrlin to balance/defeat/face the Black Tower seems to me highly short-sighted.  We've seen how things that occurred years and years before end up drastically affecting the events that take place in the future (see all the stuff that happened around the time of the 'Aiel War' both to cause it and the results).  To say that the Pattern would force out an Amyrlin from a specific Ajah seems highly uncharacteristic, much too bold an exertion of its will than it would seem to act in general.


created: 2002-07-25 03:44:44
subject: <b>Okay,</b>
body:
Okay, I'll give you that it would be cool, but I don't think Lan would do that. On the point of the theory, I like it.


created: 2002-07-29 05:46:52
subject: <b>Couple of Points...</b>
body:
This is a well thought out theory. I like it, even though I don't necessarily agree with it. My only real problem with it is that it sounds like giving up on trying to understand something and just throwing up your hands and saying &quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.&quot;<br /><br />Of course, maybe the Aes Sedai know that the wheel chooses the Amyrlin, and that's why that is such a popular saying amongst them. Hmm...<br /><br />But seriously, to a couple of the above points:<br />Egwene's Ajah - She has none, and presumably won't until she steps down as Amyrlin. Upon that time (if she's not killed in office), every indication is that she will be Green. Trying to unite the Tower is just as much Greenworthy as any other Ajah, since she's trying to unite it to fight the last BATTLE. And, it's not as if she's trying to negotiate with Elaida to heal the Tower... she's laid siege to Tar Valon. Not a very Gray way to go about it. Her ter'angreal test indicated that she would be Green only in that her keeper, Beldeine, was Green, and the Keeper is generally raised from the same Ajah as the Amyrlin.<br /><br />We have, by the way, met a Green Aes Sedai named Beldeine that would be about the right age... she was one of the Aes Sedai sent by Elaida to capture Rand, and later swore fealty to him. Whether this is meant to be the same Beldeine or not remains to be seen, but by the descriptions of the two women, I don't think there was anything to directly dispute it.<br /><br />Also, I don't know if it helps, but the list of every Amyrlin since the War of the Hundred Years is listed on page 216 of the Guide. It lists each Amyrlin as well as the Ajah she's raised from and the years she served. Someone mentioned that the Amyrlin Seat is elected for life... I'm not sure that's entirely true. It is correct that there is no limited term, but I'm pretty sure Amyrlins aren't expected to serve until they're put in the ground. According to the list in the Guide, it looks like the average Amyrlin sits for about 25-30 years. Some longer (Edarna Noregovna of the Blue Ajah sat 51 years, from 64 to 115 NE), some much shorter (Marith Jaen, also a Blue, sat only 4 years, from  984-988 NE). Some Amyrlins left office due to death, of course, but I think it reasonable to assume that the vast majority decide to step down after two or three decades, otherwise, I would think that the longest-sitting Amyrlin would be more than 51 years. The point being, Egwene doesn't have to die to take off the stole, so presumably she could then choose an Ajah, and even if she sits for a century before stepping down, Nynaeve could still have a crack at the big chair<br /><br />Unfortunately, there's very little that we know about events that took place over that time period, except for the events surrounding Rand's birth about 20 years ago.<br /><br />Without more facts, it will remain impossible to tell whether or not this theory is correct. Was there a plague in 198 NE, and it was the will of the Wheel that Catala Lucanvalle of the Yellow Ajah had taken office the year before? Or was the plague in 196 NE, and the Tower elected Catala from the Yellow to deal with it? Was there a plague at all? We just don't know.<br /><br />I'm content with the fact that, if it becomes important, we don't know whether or not the Wheel cares who sits on the Amyrlin Seat, but Robert Jordan will make sure it's the right woman for the job.<br /><br />As usual, my post has gotten way out of hand. Thanks for the good theory! It's something to think about, anyway.


created: 2002-07-30 06:57:18
subject: <b>The weel</b>
body:
The main problem I have with this theory is that it supposes the wheel to be an intelligent, reasoning being, trying to decide what is best for creation.<br /><br />I see the wheel as being a metaphor for 'fate' or 'destiny' or some sort, and the Dark One and the Creator as main actors on it.<br /><br />A strange thing, imho, is that the Aes Sedai tend to say 'the wheel weaves as the wheel wills'. It is a strange metaphor because wheels donot weave. Wheels just make threads wich can then be woven in a loom. So perhaps this series of books should actually be called 'loom of time' ? Neh, not nearly as catchy.


created: 2002-08-17 16:00:16
subject: <b>The Wheel weaves...</b>
body:
The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern that is the fabric of reality.  People keep saying the Creator abandoned the Wheel as soon as he created it.  But did he?  Who has ever seen a loom weave by itself?  The Pattern does not have to be a feeling, thinking entity to weave it's threads if someone is there to direct the weave.  So, sure!  The Pattern can quite possibly weave in an Amyrlin of a needed Ajah at or around the time it is needed, I think.  I also think that a lot of the folks in the Pattern take a heck of a lot of things for granted.  Like the Creator not being involved in anyway. Heck! The Dark One is, why would the Creator just let the Pattern be with that entity muching up the place!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Is it November yet?<br /><br />


created: 2002-12-01 18:06:41
subject: <b>Egwene is NOT Green</b>
body:
She never officially joined any Ajah; in fact, she was not raised to Aes Sedai status prior to being made Amyrlin; she is a full Aes Sedai *because* she is Amyrlin (the books made a big deal of that point, actually). <br /><br />She is therefor, both symbolically AND LITERALLY, &quot;of no ajah&quot; ... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As big a deal as RJ made about Egwene being made Amyrlin -before- being raised to full aes sedai (which inevitably involves picking, *right then and there*, an ajah!) ... as others have said, this is the equivalent of RJ beating us over th ehead with a two-by-four. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Go re-read the place where Egwene is being made amyrlin again, if you don't believe me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />No, um ... actually, it's probably more the equivalent of him repeatedly running over us with a TANK.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-04-24 01:01:07
subject: <b>no Green</b>
body:
The amyrlins right now are a red and someone who had no Ajah. Egwene was raised straight from accepted to Amyrlin.


created: 2002-07-18 16:36:50
subject: <b>I was thinking the same thing</b>
body:
When I was reading glimmers, and saw Iltrude talking about chaos, it seemed obvious that a Forsaken was behind it. You just happened to point out all the evidence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-18 18:54:33
subject: <b>The first Glimmers theory</b>
body:
Congrats on being the author of the first theory on Glimmers. It may not have had a very important conclusion, but it is deserving of your points.


created: 2002-07-18 20:39:22
subject: <b>Is Graendal still there?</b>
body:
Or is she doing something else for Moridin?  Graendal may well have been pulled away from Arad Doman, and be working elsewhere under Moridin's directions.  <br /> The forces beseiging Caemlyn in Glimmers seem to me to be the likely place for Graendal to be working right now, as they are united behind some previously unknown noble.<br /> And Graendal's last thought before going to see Moridin in POD makes it seem she doesn't think she'll be going back any time soon...<br /> Of course, for someone who can Travel, this probably doesn't pose too much of a problem...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 01:52:49
subject: <b>thank you...</b>
body:
You clarified many of my 'stupid' questions.  Well said <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 08:01:35
subject: <b>yep, makes sense</b>
body:
I thought pretty much the same thing.  <br /><br />In response to a previous comment, Lady Arymilla is not entirely unknown.  Dyelin mentioned to Elyane that she'd put forward a claim on the Lion Throne, and I think she was called a silly goose as well.  But she is unexpected.  <br />Also, I noticed that while many of the banners belonged to supporters of Houses Arawn and Sarand, I don't recall Bashere actually seeing their banners.  Could they have decided that, with the imprisonment of those candidates, they'd unite behind the only other one?  Unlikely.  I suspect the Forsaken are behind this.  Probably Moridin himself, but you never know with the Forsaken<br /><br />And finally, the return of everyone's favourite Ogier! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Ok, so there's not much competition for the title, but still)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-20 16:45:01
subject: <b>It would be so much easier for me to judge this theory</b>
body:
If I had actually read Glimmers. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-22 11:47:16
subject: <b>The end is near!</b>
body:
Some very important things were happening in the prologue, and a very important pattern.  Namely, the attempted theft from both Dobraine and Bashere.  Why are darkfriends obviously trying to rifle through the rooms of the Dragon's closest advisors.  The answer....THE SEAL'S!<br /><br />We know that Taim saw Rand give Bashere the last Seal.  We don't know what Rand has done with them, but we know that the last thing Rand did was a major blow to the DO.  And we know that military forces throughout Randland are mobilizing.  Even Arad Doman, which is in chaos is mobilizing.  If military conquest is inevitable, that indicates that the DO is making a major move.  What could be more major than his breaking the seals.<br /><br />For the most part, this has been speculation, but I'd like to show two points that indicate the importance of what has happened.  The first, and probably the weaker, is that Slayer was involved in the attempt to steal from Bashere.  While this is speculation, remember that when Bashere's men found the dead bodies of the two men, he thought that they were killed by either multiple people, or one really fast person.  They were killed very skillfully, and didn't seem to see it coming.  This is Slayer's MO.  If Slayer is involved, you know that what was being done was important.<br /><br />Secondly, and most important, is that Bashere &quot;was expecting this.&quot;  Why would Bashere expect Darkfriends to try and rob him.  What could he possibly have that would make him think, I'd better watch out for Darkfriends.  Well, since Rand did give him a Seal to the DO's prison, I think it is safe to say that this is why he was expecting something.<br /><br />Now if Darkfriends are trying to get the Seals, I think that it is very likely that the Last Battle is coming.  Run Wotmaniac's, the end is near!!!!!!!!!! <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-07-22 13:08:11
subject: <b>I'm sorry about not posting spoilers</b>
body:
I thought I was posting a theory there.  Damnit.  Sorry for any spoilers there.  <br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!!


created: 2002-07-22 20:09:01
subject: <b>It is Graendal, for sure</b>
body:
The comments and names mirror the event at the beginning of Chapter 12 of PoD. She may be running messages for Moridin now, but she issued the orders that Ituralde received just before she was co-opted.<br /><br />I would have to agree that G is behind all of the orders. If she is able to issue orders that easily, then somehow she has control of the King, or possibly the Council of Merchants whoever they may be.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-22 22:34:55
subject: <b>What if</b>
body:
What if the King was under Compulsion, like Morgase, but is now &quot;breaking out&quot; of it, like Morgase.  The command to unify forces and attack the Seanchan seems like it would increase stability and reduce the amount of chaos in Arad Doman and Almoth Plain.  It would also account for the extreme secrecy surrounding the mission and the slaying of the messenger by a Gray Man.  <br /><br />What do you think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 08:41:17
subject: <b>Messages</b>
body:
AOBiD, the messenger that got 'killed' by a Gray Man was actually a story that Graendal made up to make the story seem more importnat.  As for why she did it, it sends all of the forces in Arad Doman against the Seanchan, a group that is knocking on her backdoor and controlled by Anath, aka Semirhage.  Semir, Demandred and Mesaana are as thick as thieves together and the other Foresaken know it.  Why wouldn't one of them use proxy forces to strike at their proxies?<br />And yes, wismail, your theory makes sense.  However, when I posted a similar theory, I was told that GLimmers takes place the day BEFORE the end of WH.  <br />Woody


created: 2002-07-24 11:20:10
subject: <b>Spoilers</b>
body:
Hey, don't worry about posting spoilers. Anybody who reads a &quot;Glimmers&quot; theory before reading Glimmers is asking for what they get. I stayed off of wotmania for the three days it took me to finish Glimmers over breaks and lunches. All I can say is... come on November!<br /><br />R<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 02:16:58
subject: <b>Graendal is gone</b>
body:
I would have to agree with an earlier comment that it seems like Alsalam uniting Arad Domon doesn't go along with typical Forsaken plans.  I think Graendal is gone from Arad Domon and now Alsalam is getting his country back, why else united with the Taraboners and the Dragon Sworn.  The grey man clinches things for me.


created: 2002-07-31 19:42:27
subject: <b>Greandal has him</b>
body:
I'm convinced, and always have been. The rumpled old man is him for sure. She <i>did</i> kidnap him, and I don't think she'd kill him. Graendal is too clever for that. As someone else said, he's under heavy Compulsion. He's not beautiful enough to be a 'pet' so she keeps him out of sight and uses his knowledge when it suits her.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 13:50:22
subject: <b>Rumpled old man.</b>
body:
Glimmers does seem to confirm that Graendal has Alsalam captive, and that Ituralde is independent. A number of theories stated with CERTAINTY that the old man was Ituralde, and, like 95% of readers agreed. Go figure.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 19:35:06
subject: <b>more agreement</b>
body:
if you remember (whoever you happen to be) that the forsaken were ordered to spread chaos. The fact that the king happens to be doing the same is sort of a giveaway. we also know greandal is already in arad doman...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /> ^__________________<br />(Dance with me Eyeless)


created: 2003-03-28 15:52:57
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
Remember in LoC Graendal sends a message from the Lady Tuva, who was supposedly killed. But we know that it was Graendal, Lord Ituralde receives this in CoT. Lord Ituralde says, in CoT, that Alsalam's orders could not be made better to create chaos, which we know was Graendal's intended result. And noone knows where the King is.. I agree with this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic"><br />Benjamin Arthur Hesketh<br />10.5.88<i></i>-7.26.08<br /><i>amor vincit omnia</i><br /><font color="white">love&amp;missyou</font><br /></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.tvtally.com" target="_blank">do eeeet!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-23 22:47:57
subject: <b>Hmmmmmmm</b>
body:
I'm gonna plead on the fence for this one.  It's really interesting and plausible ... but I'm not entirely convinced.<br /><br />The thing with Taringail may have just been Thom's devotion to Morgase, or may not have been.  And just because Thom was able to kill Galladrian doesn't mean too much.  He always took pride that a gleeman go places and find out things that a regular man could not.  And I'm sure someone with his ability in the Game, would know who to bribe so he could get in and out unannounced.<br /><br />We'll have to do the whole RAFO to make sure though.  I like your theory, but like I said, I'll need a little more to be convinced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Annatar, the Gift-Lord<br />Teacher of Ringcraft<br />Forger of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />And the future <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 00:59:21
subject: <b>very interesting.</b>
body:
and plausible, too.  i'll have to go back and read again, but i can't see anything glaringly wrong with this theory.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> *snicker, snicker*<br />Part-Time Lurker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Pagans; into sex, death, and religion, in an interesting late night tv sort of way.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 02:16:06
subject: <b>umm... no</b>
body:
If you actually look up any of the quotes that you vaguely refer to, it's easy to see that they don't mean at all what you claim they do.<br /><br />What you say about the WoT RPG, fine, maybe Thom's Cairheinen - that's about all I can even somewhat agree with...<br /><br />But what you claim is proof that Thom has connections with House Riatin have no proof behind them at all.  Getting in to get his revenge on the King means nothing.  There's no reason that Thom can't make the necessary connections just by being a gleeman as Annatar rightly pointed out.<br /><br />The description of what happened with Taringail and Morgase is incorrectly described.  Look at TSR, Chap 17, &quot;Deceptions&quot;, where Moiraine shows Thom how much she knows about his past.  Moiraine says that Taringail meant to kill Morgase to make himself the first King of Andor and that Thom prevented that.  There's no reason to see House Riatin as part of that.  Thom was saving the woman he loved from assassination.  The fact that the marriage took place already made House Damodred strong.<br /><br />A final unsupported claim was that Thom had to be a noble through some sort of ridiculous logic.  There's no reason to think that Thom would be a minor noble because 1)even a minor noble would have some sort of estate/reputation to take care of and uphold, a gleeman is not a respected position in comparison to a gleeman, 2) a minor noble with the skills that Thom has at the Game of Houses could have furthered his House a lot more by court machinations than by becoming a gleeman, 3) if Thom had a noble background in Cairhein, supporting an Andoran Royal House would squash any hope his House would have of becoming more than a minor House 4) in the same chapter mentioned above, we have Thom's POV and he says that the people that killed Owyn (the Reds gentled him upon capture instead of taking him to the White Tower like Tower law requires, and then left him to the people of the village they found him in... who killed him) were people he had known all his life, so there's no reason to think that Owyn was sent away once they found out that he could channel (Owyn only survived some 3 years according to Thom)...<br /><br />Basically, nothing here holds water...<br /><br />There's no reason Thom is a minor noble... and esp no reason for him to be a gleeman if he was...


created: 2002-07-24 11:44:32
subject: <b>Not So........</b>
body:
I don't agree wit the theory, becuase as it was stated Thom is too good at the Game to be sent to away.  But the people that killed his nephew did not know who Thom was because later on he says that when the found out I was his uncle they tried to kill me.  Which implies a time lag so those people did not know Thom all his life or they would have immediately known about Oweyn being his nephew.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 11:50:01
subject: <b>imfunny</b>
body:
Well said!  You are forgetting something though. Does the name Grey Fox mean anything to you?  Also think on how Thom was introduced in the beginning of the series.  As others suggest and we've seen, a &quot; simple gleeman&quot; can get away with murder.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />One day Columbo and Green Gaidin will release the unauthorized biography of Thom Merrilin the Grey Fox.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 13:00:59
subject: <b>???????</b>
body:
Silly me.  I was under the impression that proof constituted direct quotes with book and page number.  That theories with &quot;I think it said somewhere&quot; as support would be unceremoniously rejected.  Obviously a misimpression, huh?  The only page number you give is from the WOT Role Playing Game??????  Since when did that become a valid source? Also, Thom was not a &quot;simple gleeman&quot; for House Trakand as you claim.  He was a court bard. Previous posts pointed out other incorrect assumptions.  So, let's see.  Facts wrong.  No proof.  Thumbs down.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 16:09:16
subject: <b>where's the beef?</b>
body:
i agree with some of the people above in that there is no real facts to back up your argument. the one thing that you did have going for your argument was completely passed over. i think that the fact that Thom was a court bard indicates that he was of respected birth, and i think everyone can accept that Thom was from Cairhein. however, thom=noble from cairhein is about as far as i can see being possible. nothing really seems to indicate house riatin.


created: 2002-07-24 22:10:30
subject: <b>May I point something out here...</b>
body:
Several months ago a theory was posted, by me, which stated that Thom Merillin was Cairhienin. I didn't have access to the information from the WoT RPG book, but that merely provides confirmation. So I have to agree with you on this one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> However, I feel that the connection to House Riatin is extremely tenuous. There isn't any real proof. Thom may have been involved with Riatin in some way in his capacity as a musician, but that is it. Not a noble. <br />And I have to note that Caraline marrying Darlin Sisnera does not disqualify her for the position of High Seat of House Damodred, any more than Taringail was disqualified from it by marrying Morgase, who was High Seat of Trakand and a reigning monarch into the bargain. If Darlin is High Seat of Sisnera at all - we only know he's a High Lord.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-24 22:11:20
subject: <b>Not bloody likely</b>
body:
Anybody out there ever hear of a tall Cairhienian with blue eyes??? I thought not.Toms an Andorman,he was court bard for house Trakand.<br />Fires Of Heaven Memories pg351 sc<br />Morgase &quot;It was Maighdin who should have had the Lion Throne.But a fever had carried her away,and a young girl had found herself High Seat of House Trakand,in the middle of a struggle for the throne with no more support in the beginning than her House retainers and the House Bard.&quot;


created: 2002-07-24 22:34:41
subject: <b>bloody brilliant</b>
body:
right on, dedrah sedai...<br />in my opinion, that seems pretty definitive unless someone wants to argue that that House bard wasn't Thom... which no one should...<br /><br />thanks for clearing that up<br /><br />and something I've been meaning to ask the WoT community for awhile, why is the WoT RPG anywhere near a reliable source for quotes/information or anything of any worth whatsoever?<br /><br />and the final thing i want to say is an echo of a lot of other people's comments: please for the love of the Light, actually have a clue about what you're submitting a theory on... ie. do your research...


created: 2002-07-25 00:20:23
subject: <b>The WoT RPG</b>
body:
Anything said in the WoT RPG should be considered as reliable for the same reason that anything said in the Guide should be considered reliable.  RJ didn't write them himself, but he approved them both personally.  Thus, to say that the WoT RPG is not reliable is to say that RJ is not reliable.  If RJ is not reliable, then none of the evidence in <i>any</i> of the theories should be considered reliable.  If we don't want that to be true, our only other alternative for now is to consider the WoT RPG as reliable.<br /><br />Of course, if anyone can disprove the claim that RJ personally approved the RPG, please do so.  Then I wouldn't have to think of the mainland as being called &quot;the Westlands&quot; anymore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 01:22:31
subject: <b>actually...</b>
body:
actually, i would not consider the rpg book or 'the world of ...&quot; to be a very good source of information because of 2 reasons:<br /><br />1. RJ did not write it himself. this means that someone else's interpretation is the vast majority of the content.<br /><br />2. in 'the world of...' mat's shador logath dagger is depicted in two drawings. in one of them, it is a straight dagger -- in the other, it is a curved dagger. RJ gave his stamp of approval... but how much effort did he put into reviewing this stuff?<br /><br />just my opinion of non-RJ wot stuff.


created: 2002-07-25 03:30:55
subject: <b>I'll have to throw my lot in with the above.</b>
body:
The evidence just isnt there, and I, too, have never heard of a tall Cairhenien w/ Blue eyes.<br /><br />Also, I feel that the Guide IS a reliable source of info, but as we ALL know and agree, thos pictures were drawn by a third grade dropout with a box of crayons and two broken thumbs. I mean, have you SEEN Lan in that book?!?!?!?!<br /><br />I do not, however, feel that the RPG is a reliable source, at least not in the way the author of this theory used it. Just because he is a Cairhenien Wanderer doesnt really mean anything. I have not played the game, but doesnt a part of their stats focus on the ability to intereact w/ other people and have the charisma they need to charm people and stuff? If so, why NOT put Thom as a Cairhenien? They would ALL start out with a higher stat for that than any other nation, and I assume that Thom's would be much higher than ANYONE elses. In that looking glass, it would make sense to start that stat out as high as possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 16:58:22
subject: <b>Thom, at one point, did have money</b>
body:
In LoC, Thom is lecturing Mat on how he should handle getting Elayne back to Caemlyn for Rand. Thom tells a story about when he was young, and thought to rescue a young woman he thought needed rescuing. &quot;I had gold in my purse and a fine coach, a driver and a manserveant...I offered to take her away. I'd give her a maid and a house of her own...&quot; Page 727 in the paperback version.<br /><br />Anyway, this doesn't give any creidence to Thom being from House Riatin, or even being Cairhienen. But it does suggest he may have been some sort of minor noble.<br /><br />Peace, Out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-28 17:37:51
subject: <b>To randwashere</b>
body:
randwashere&gt;  Since he was a court bard he probably had a lot of money.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Reality is for those that cant cope with randland.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />All nargs are equal. But some nargs are more equal than others.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />-Homer Simpson</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 19:30:14
subject: <b>Young Thom</b>
body:
IMHO in the instance randwashere brought up Thom was referring to a time he was very young.  I'm guessing 1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />25.  He wouldn't have been a court bard at that time.


created: 2002-08-02 10:13:38
subject: <b>proof Thom is not in House Riatin</b>
body:
If he were the King would have merely ordered Thom to the Palace or had his men question him.  They would not have had to kill Dena.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-05 01:00:55
subject:
<b>That sly old Fox <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I have always been suspicious of Thom.  He is without a doubt one of my favourite characters, however there are some things that make me wonder about his motives.<br /><br />1.  He rocks up in the middle of the night in Emond's Field.  No flourishing entrance.  No waving of his multicoloured cloak.<br /><br />2.  Isn't killed by the Halfman, instead escapes - fair enough he was saving Rand and Mat but remember &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;.  Not present in storyline during Darkfriend meeting Bk2 (figure in grey cloak?).<br /><br />3.  Slaughters the Cairhien King, doesn't just kill him.  Ok he was pissed, but the body was found ripped apart beyond recognition save for the head fixed onto the spike.<br /><br />4.  His connection with Morgase.  He basically puts her on the throne, presumably killing off her competition and the husband who would destroy her...  All for love?<br /><br />5.  And finally how does a house bard come to know so much about the Great Game?<br /><br />I am only putting forward suspicions, not theories backed with solid evidence.<br /><br />Jimi


created: 2002-12-14 04:22:32
subject: <b>re: That sly old Fox</b>
body:
A minor correction.  Thom did not slaughter Galldrian, he killed him.  It was Lord Barthanes, the Darkfriend, who was found torn to pieces with his head on a spike.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Vengeance is Mine,&quot; sayeth the Lord.  I'm just here to arrange the meeting.<br />This is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-13 05:35:02
subject: <b>Physically.... NO.</b>
body:
its a good theory, but thom is TALL, with white hair and very BLUE eyes and, going by all those descriptions of him being left out in the sun, probably tanned. <br /><br />Cairhien peeps are SHORT, with dark hair and DARK eyes, with extremly pale complexions. He sounds nothing like a Cairhien. <br /><br />Though i like the RomeoJuliet side of Thom and Moiraine's marriage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-27 22:00:49
subject: <b>No flippin way</b>
body:
I agree with pretty much all of the above<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 17:09:50
subject: <b>i'm skeptical...</b>
body:
I don't know, but I get the feeling that the actual seal wouldn't be particularly important to the Dark One.  Of the seals that have been broken, none have required a darkfriend or fade to bring the Seal to SG to get it broken.  They're merely focus points for the seal over the bore.  For this reason, it seems unlikely that that's what they were looking for.  I don't have any idea what they could be looking for, other than information, but the Seals sounds unlikely... prove me wrong 'cuz that would be cool too.<br /><br />And I would think that the gholam would seem a more likely killer since the gholam's MO is killing utilizing his superhuman speed... <br /><br />but maybe that's just me...


created: 2002-07-29 20:20:31
subject: <b>Why steal seals?</b>
body:
Isn't the breaking of the seals meant to be a good thing for the side of light - clearing away the rubble? So why would the DO want to steal and break the seals? On the other hand, after Rand 'wins' he gets an unbroken seal, so maybe breaking the seals IS a win for the dark. Or alternatively, the DO wants to steal back the seals to prevent them being broken?


created: 2002-07-29 21:01:12
subject: <b>The Light does not yet realize that the seals have to be broken</b>
body:
As far as them stealing the seals, I agree. I am a bit skeptical about Slayer, though. While it IS his MO, he had quite a different task in WH...... we will have to see if he continues it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 23:12:44
subject: <b>a similarity</b>
body:
One thing I found interesting was the note found on one of Dobraine's assassins. I couldn't help but draw a parallel with the note that Bayle Domon was supposed to deliver, which contained orders for his death, in tGH. Domon claimed that trollocs and darkfriends were after him all the way from Saldaea, although he didn't know why. We know that he had one of the seals in his possession. This isn't hard evidence, but the similarity is interesting.<br /><br />The only other explanation I can think of is that they were looking for the Choedan Kal access keys, per Moridin's orders; although I wasn't aware that Bashere knew of them to be expecting an attack. Also, Loial and Karldin give some indication that they might know what the assassins were after. Hmmmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-30 01:45:14
subject: <b>I agree with this</b>
body:
Rand thinks in LoC that he has the two seals of Moiraine's &quot;in a safe place&quot;, so it is reasonable to suggest that Dobraine would have them in his keeping by WH - after all, he is in Cairhien, the last known location of the seals, and he is a trusted advisor of Rand's. There is no evidence to suggest he has anything else DFs would want - Rand has the Choedan Kal, and even if Moridin thought Dobraine had them...well, whatever-it-is must be something Loial knows about. Loial knows of the seals. He doesn't know of the CK. So he thinks it was the seals, and if he does, and someone tried to steal Bashere's seal, it makes perfect sense Dobraine has the seals. Rand wouldn't want them too near in case he got an attack of the LTTs, and there isn't anyone else he'd really trust with a seal. Also, the reason DFs wanted them - well, they were after them in TGH so why not now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-30 13:53:45
subject: <b>Seals as protection?</b>
body:
Fel said that the rubble had to be cleared away.  The next trip through the Wheel requires a whole prison when the bore is made.  If Rand needs focal points in order to undo the seals, then he would be hard pressed to repair things with one in the hands of the DO's minions.  <br /><br />Also, the DO might not be ready yet.  What better reason to foment chaos amongst your opponents and keep them off balance, then that you are not ready YET.  We have the scene where there are not enough bodies for Myrdraal swords or to provide choice for ressurected Chosen.  <br /><br />I have my own theory that this trip through the Wheel is different.  3 Taveren in the Two Rivers born at once implies that the Pattern is badly stretched.  Take into account that others seem to be acting as Taveren at other times, and it leads me to believe that the Pattern is close to the breaking point - where the DO would be freed.  (Maybe this is the first time that the seals were used.)  The Dark One may be trying to twist things so out of shape, that he is freed.


created: 2002-07-30 14:52:17
subject: <b>Well it definitely wasn't the Gholam</b>
body:
He may have superhuman speed, but he doesn't use knives in the back of the head to kill.  He rips people limb from limb(Fel), tears out throats(Naelsan), and turns people's heads around(that one Kin).  The Gholam is MESSY, and sucks the blood out.<br /><br />I would like to hear any other ideas as to what they might have been after.  I think it's clear that both sets of theieves were after the same thing, so either they thought that either Bashere or Dobraine had what they wanted, or they both did.  If they both did, it has to be the Seals.  That's the only thing they have similar.  I don't really buy the idea of them being after the Choedan Kal access keys, though.  Rand wouldn't let anyone he didn't really really trust have them.  The only ones he let hold them were Min and Nynaeve.<br /><br />Any other ideas, if it wasn't the seals?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 01:37:40
subject: <b>Taim and Seals</b>
body:
Dobraine was made Rand's steward in Cairhien, so he's basically the most important person in that town now, so wouldn't it make sense (to whoever ordered the theft) that he would know where Rand's important possessions are?<br /><br />Bashere's rooms were ransacked for a different reason. The thieves were after him specifically. Why? Because someone knew that he had a seal. Who knows this? Everyone in the courtyard when Taim gave it to Rand.  Who is the likeliest suspect? <br /><br />My guess: A Darkfriend who was clued in on the seals' importance and probable locations, but doesn't know much else. This leaves three suspects.<br /><br />1. Taim ordering Asha'man.<br />2. Demandred using Taim's information and Slayer as proxy. <br />3. Moridin using Taim's information and Shaidar Haran as a proxy. SH could have killed the men in Dobraine's room quickly, and entered without the hassle of gateways.<br /><br />I like the third, as it reintroduces them back into the action after being left out for a while.<br /><br />Elder Haman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Still out looking for Loial (hint, hint RJ) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-07-31 02:32:21
subject: <b>TIME</b>
body:
I got the impression, mainly form the final PoV, that Rand had yet to Cleanse Sadin, and that these events covered what happened everywhere else important while Rand did his Dragon thing....So it could have been a premptive strike, because the Forasaken did know he was trying to cleanse it.  Hmmm....If the strength of the dark on's prision waxes and wanes, based on Ishy's freedom 40-in and 40-out, and the seals effect the strength of the prison as the physical focuses for the prison..then...hmmm....Anyone think that the taint is directly related to the stenght of the Do's prison?  strong whn the prison is weak, and less when the prison is strong.  They could ahve been treying to strngthen the taint and make it more difficult to clense, not forseeing the shadar Logath end.....hmmmm....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 03:36:29
subject: <b>*GROANS IN AGONY*</b>
body:
Do I HAVE to post the Jordan quote that says that this Age is the same as every other Third? Jeez!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 10:01:50
subject: <b>Thanks for the feedback.</b>
body:
First off, this is supposed to happen the day before the Taint is cleansed.  I don't know where I read this but I know it was a reliable source.<br /><br />Second, they were after something, and I doubt they would go after the CK, considering that Rand had it on him at all times, and people had no idea where he was keeping them.  It seems pretty desperate to start searching random people's apartments in the hope that they'll find it miraculously.  Why didn't they search Rand's apartments?  (Aside from the fact that they no longer existed)  It is the most reasonable place.  DF's aren't stupid  (At least the Forsaken aren't.)<br /><br />There is the possiblity that the DF's were attracted to the Seals in a similar manner to Fain's dagger in tEotW.<br /><br />In regards to Slayer not being involved.  It wouldn't be a Gholam, because as someone pointed out earlier, they don't use knives.  And it wouldn't be SH, because Halfman use swords. Slayer is the only speedy asasssin who uses knives and appears out of nowhere, hence his MO.  Just my thoughts.<br /><br />In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!


created: 2002-08-01 10:35:51
subject: <b>re:what they were after</b>
body:
Im very skeptical that they were after the seals. As written earlier as of yet no DF has had need of the seals they have made no effort to obtain the seals at all. The seals are breaking on their own. Also i am 99% sure Taim is a DF considering in TSR Egwene is questioning one of the black ajah prisoners and she tells them Liandrins plan to rescue Taim from the Aes Sedai taking him to Tar Valon and using Taim. Well Taim was rescued from the Aes Sedai. I would have to think it was by Liandrin and the other blacks just like they said. Considering his options, go to TV and be gentled or join the black ajah what do you think he chose? Not to hard. Now if we accept that Taim is a DF working for the black then why in the world would he give a seal to Rand if they were so important? answer is he wouldnt. He would find some other way to try and win Rand's trust. As we see giving him a seal didnt win his trust at all. I think they were looking for something else, maybe callandor or even the cheodan cal but really there is no telling until RJ lets us in on it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-01 17:53:49
subject: <b>Additional Reasons why the Seals</b>
body:
I believe it's the seals as well, for the simple reason that if the good guys can do anything helpful to their cause with the Seals, the Dark One would want to prevent it. Especially with the taint in imminent danger of removal, it suggests that the DO is worried about what Rand could do with clean saidin and a Choedan Kal, not to mention an immagination unencumbered by assumptions of what is and isn't possible.  The effort put into making the Eye of the World pure (lest it debase or harm the seal and/or Horn) and the corruption of the saidin-made Ways suggest that anything Rand could do against the Shadow would need to be done with a cleansed Source, as it would risk aiding the DO by way of the taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 00:36:26
subject: <b>It was probably the Seals...</b>
body:
but that does raise questions as to why the Shadow might want them, and why there seems to be some urgency now.<br />  When Domon was being chased, he certainly had a Seal in his possession, but he also had something which may have been a male <i>angreal</i>, and this may have been the object of the chase.<br />  One of the greatest difficulties with trying to puzzle out the Shadow's plans in the first 6 books or so is that there are so many of them, with differing plans.  Maybe Domon wasn't being chased for the Seal, although I agree he probably was.<br /> So why do the Shadow want the Seals back now, after Taim gave one to Rand?  Did the way Rand reacted when given the Seal by Taim change the plans the Shadow had in this regard? I imagine they hardly expected Rand to break the thing.<br /> One possibility that springs to mind is that the Taint will slowly grow back, as it is generated by the Seals in some manner; or perhaps the Taint cannot be completely removed unless the Seals are destroyed.<br /> The other possibility is that this is a desperate attempt by the Shadow to recover and break the Seals themselves, before Rand cleanses <i>saidin</i>, thus freeing the DO.  Of course, we cannot be sure that it would free the DO, unless the Bore has grown since the AoL, but it's possible.<br /> Overall, I guess I'd agree they were searching for the Seals - Bashere's comment about expecting such an attack certainly points in that direction - I just want to know WHY?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 19:16:38
subject: <b>Yes is the Slayer</b>
body:
The people he kills in WH are at the same time with Daggers one in each hand and he can just step out of Dream World right behind them and bamm!<br /><br />Gholam don't use weapons<br /><br />SH would have used his Sword or if he can the True Power.


created: 2002-08-10 01:55:20
subject: <b>&quot;It appears someone is trying to see some of Ishamael's plans succeed&quot;</b>
body:
Remember that quote?  It was made  by Sammael in ACOS and foreshadowed the return of Ishamael as Morridin.  DF searching for the seals is Ishy's MO, which is why DFs seemed to look for the seals for a while, (Bayle Domon's seal) then stop and now are looking again.  Why is a different question, but I'm sure if anyone knows the answer it is the AOL's-premier-philosopher-turned-immortal-madman Ishamael.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 19:14:23
subject: <b>Not the Seals...</b>
body:
...the control statues from Rhuidean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mercy!&quot; cried Gandalf: &quot;if the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What do you want to know?&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 23:50:03
subject: <b>not CK statues</b>
body:
it can't be. rand doesn't trust very many people with them. <br /><br />i think the seals make the most sense.


created: 2002-08-19 10:16:59
subject: <b>Why steal the seals? Here's why...</b>
body:
I too think it was most likely the seals they were searching for; the &quot;why&quot; is the question.<br /><br />I think the reason they were trying to steal the seals is to keep Rand and Company in the dark.  Right now, Rand will know exactly when the last seal is broken, and could possibly even control the TIMIMG of the last breaking...therefore he would be able to choose the time and place of the final battle...a great advantage!<br /><br />Now, if the seals are in the dark's hands, Rand will not know when the DO is free.  This lends a large element of surprise to the dark's forces, and hence the avantage goes to the DO.<br /><br />This is the best reason I can think of to try and steal the seals from Rand.  <br /><br />Except for possibly one other reason, (which kind of goes to the same point)...to keep Rand off-balance.  I would assume there is a certain feeling of security having the seals in one's hand...to then lose them, especially when you thought they were safe, would at the least be a blow to your ego and could lead you (ie Rand) to make poor decisions or split his attention. (ie go running after the thiefs to try and get the seals back rather than concentrating on unifying his forces etc.)<br /><br />Anyway, This is just my humble opinion and I'm sure someone will find a way to prove I am wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Belgaria<br /><br />A humble newbie to Wotmania <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-06 21:25:56
subject: <b>I think it was the Access Keys.</b>
body:
This was the day before the cleansing, so the Forsaken could have still thought they had a chance to stop it. I doubt it was Moridin who sent the thieves; more likely it was Osan'gar, or maybe Moghedien. Even Graendal, perhaps. The thieves were sent to the Sun Palace, a place Rand was known to frequent; the Legion of the Dragon, one of the major concentrations of his power; and probably a couple of other places as well. Why? To find the Access Keys. The Forsaken didn't know exactly where he has them, so he'she sent the thieves to all the places he <i>might</i> have stashed them, not knowing that he had them hidden in the woods outside Far Madding. A desperate gample, certainly, but one worth the risk if it succeeded.<br /><br />Now as to who killed them...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 16:49:33
subject:
<b>On Taim an Black Ajah (a reeeeeeeally late comment <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> )</b>

body:
The Black sister who told about the Black Ajah plan to free Taim wasn't stilled, so she was still bound by the Black Ajah Three Oaths that prevent a Black sister from revealing their secrets. Remember, Vandene and Adeleas never got anything useful out of THEIR questioned prisoner.<br /><br />And the thought that Taim would work for any Aes Sedai of any color, even Black, sounds highly unlikely. Of course, supposing he is a DF, he can be told to do so, but he's too arrogant for that to REALLY work.<br /><br />Hmm, I'll be surprised if anyone actually reads this. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> (I only just read the Glimmers, so I'm only now starting on Glimmers theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-23 17:49:19
subject: <b>Not the seals</b>
body:
True, Rand did give a seal to Bashere, but there is no evidence of him giving one to Dobraine. Also, though there is nothing to suggest this, I dont think Bashere still has that seal. It seems more likely that Rand left that seal with Bashere so he could deal with Taim, instead of hiding the seal and leaving Taim and Bashere together - someone probably would have died in that case. After Taim was at the Farm, I would have hid it myself in Rand's place.<br />Also, though breaking the seals being a good thing is debatable, Rand believes the seals to be the only thing holding the DO in, and would be very protective of him. It would seem logical that he would hide them in the same ways he did the access keys - in a wall, with inverted traps.<br />On a side note, it is unlikely that the thieves were after the access keys, because from WH we know that Moridin believes Rand has them.


created: 2003-01-11 13:31:35
subject: <b>Dark One wouldn't be free</b>
body:
Someone suggested that Rand would have an advantage by knowing when the last seal was broken, or could break the last seal at a time of his choosing.<br />But, when the bore was sealed by LTT and the hundred companions the Dark One wasn't yet free........breaking the last seal should only allow the bore to expand again. Certainly something the forces of the Dark One would like to bring about, but not as important as has been suggested on this board.<br /><br />I think they were after the Chodean Kal. Cyndane knew Rand had them and therefore Moridin would know also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lewsdarren Telamon<br /><br />Lord of the Morning, but not too early maybe 11:00 or so?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Existentialist Heretic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-11 17:22:23
subject: <b>Hindsight is 20-20, waredragon</b>
body:
This theory was posted before the release of CoT, but after the release of Glimmers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 10:23:46
subject: <b>I wrote an MB about this recently</b>
body:
My conclusion was different. Sending Slayer to go kill a couple of random guys is ridiculous. You could've sent him in directly or something. No, I think a Forsaken told Lady Shaine/Mili Skane that Bashere had something they wanted and it looked like so. I think one of Shaine's AS killed them by thrusting a dagger with Air. Remember, the Forsaken don't know where the seal is.


created: 2002-07-31 00:34:46
subject: <b>why not compulsion</b>
body:
Why does she have to have been turned?  Could not Halima used compulsion on her.  If Sheriam has a strong mind she could have at least partially fought free of it.  That could be why she recieved the beating.  But that's just a thought take it for what you will. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-31 01:07:14
subject: <b>I doubt Compulsion</b>
body:
I doubt that she was Compulsed because from what we've seen of Compulsion, it's usually used on people in such a way that they do things without really knowing why.  Even if she fought the Compulsion, she wouldn't understand why she was being beaten if she was Compulsed.  She probably wouldn't have thought about wishing she had not talked to a sister in the Hall if she was Compulsed.  I don't have my books with me, so I can't check this with what happens in other instances, but that's what I remember at least...<br />If anyone has evid for or against, I'd be interested to hear it...


created: 2002-07-31 01:17:30
subject: <b>Why I think it's Delana</b>
body:
As was noted above, Compulsion is a possibility, and Delana does not know Compulsion. Halima would know at least some. If the assailant was a Forsaken, all the would have to do to ensure that Sheriam was not lying was use a bit of that, whereas they beat her for a long time before she could persuade them she did- hold on a second. <br />Aes Sedai cannot lie. <br />It specifically states that Sheriam had to CONVINCE her torturer she was NOT holding anything back. If she had sworn the First Oath, all she would have had to do is say &quot;I have told you everything I know&quot;. But she obviously didn't. Therefore, she cannot be sworn to the Three Oaths. Therefore, she is Black Ajah. <br />Of course, it is eminently possible that her assailant simply thought she had a bad memory. But, even so....<br />Oh, and Burr, Halima isn't a he. She's a she. She was a he, but even she thinks of herself as a she now. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 01:18:39
subject: <b>BTW...</b>
body:
Slayer killed the Gray Man in the White Tower, not Sheriam.<br />He admits this in <i>Winter's Heart</i>.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Still out looking for Loial (hint, hint RJ) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-31 01:30:31
subject: <b>Replies to three people</b>
body:
imfunny:  Grrr!  You've stumbled upon a pet peave of mine.  I dare you to go to dictionary.com or m-w.com and find the word &quot;compulse&quot;.  Don't waste your time.  Of the 1 billion or so words in the English language, &quot;compulse&quot; is not one of them.  The root word of Compulsion is &quot;compel&quot;.  However, RJ never says that to Compel is a talent.  He always refers to it as &quot;using Compulsion&quot;.  Sorry, I just hate that.  Nothing personal. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ruriha:  My name is Bad Ash.  Call me Burr again and I'll do mean things to you.  And I'll fix my error.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Haman:  Rightio.  Fixing it.  Thanks for the update, forgot about that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 05:24:55
subject: <b>I always thought it was Halima...</b>
body:
who knows? RAFO, I guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 07:57:51
subject: <b>Sheriam and the Three Oaths</b>
body:
Well, if Sheriam is Black (which I don't believe), since we don't know the Oaths, we cannot speculate on why she would get a beating.  What we have seen of the BA so far shows that they are obedient to superiors.<br />If she is turned, an agent of the DO shouldn't need to compel answers from her by beating.<br />If she is just being used and blackmailed, then a Sister like Delana wouldn't need to beat her because Delana would know that everything Sheriam said was true.<br /><br />I think the analysis is correct except that it is Halima doing the beating.  Using saidin, she can beat Sheriam to her heart's content without risking exposure.  Also, as a Forsaken (or semi-Forsaken), she would have reason to distrust the Three Oaths, in a similar fashion to the way Moridin and Semirhage and all the others dismiss anything discovered since the Age of Legends.<br /><br />Woody


created: 2002-07-31 08:55:07
subject: <b>It HAS to be Halima</b>
body:
Why? Well, aside from the strong evidence how &quot;she&quot; could beat Sheriam without risk of detection by her or other sisters, be strong enough to do so (Sheriam has been described as fairly powerful in the OP), and having the knowledge/skills to shield and then beat her; there is one other thing no one has mentioned yet, so I'll bring it up.<br /><br />At the Forsaken meeting in WH, someone asks Arangar how she is doing and she says that her charge is under control by making a motion of squishing her thumb down on something.<br /><br />Now, some may think this is Egwene. However, by all evidence we readers have been given, Egwene is by no means being swayed by Halima into doing what she wants. Egwene seems to be acting on all her plans pretty well and totally in control of herself (she has no memory probs ala Morgase, etc.).<br /><br />So this only leaves Sheriam as her &quot;charge&quot;, and after beating the sh*t out of her I would think she would be wriggling under her thumb so to speak and willfully reporting everything Egwene does and says. Remember how Egwene would always catch Halima looking at her (at the meeting on the frozen lake), well Halima obviously is charged with reporting back (to Moridin) what she does and what better way to know than to interrogate her Keeper.<br /><br />BTW, I guess her charge could also be Delana but I doubt it. Just covering all bases.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 09:58:00
subject: <b>It's a fact, no?</b>
body:
We already know she is  a DF, don't we? Isn't she the one who got snatched by Ishy from the tower and into Telaranthriod.


created: 2002-07-31 10:09:18
subject: <b>I don't like to think that Sheriam is evil...</b>
body:
I like to think that Elaida and others will be evil or (Myrdraal-turned), but not Sheriam.  She's the one Aes Sedai that should be good.  And Moiraine.  The two...and Verin.  All right, three have to be good, but THAT'S IT...Oh, yeah, and Cadsuane.<br /><br />*Ahem*<br /><br />Anyway, I can see her forcibly turned, but not actually evil of her own accord.  She could have been compelled (by the way, Bad Ash, there a one million, not one billion, words in the English language...or are you British?  I heard they use the word billion differently) to remove her oaths, and compelled to others.  And by the way, imfunny, compulsion can be made that way (so they forget what they've done) but it doesn't have to be.  Anyway, recall Morgase with her strong mind breaking free of Rahvin.  She had a broken and foggy but existent memory of her actions while compelled.  Is it really hard to believe that Sheriam, mistress of novices, is strong-willed?<br /><br />Another option is that she's simply intimidated (which suggests weak-mindedness, but oh well) by some agent of the Dark.  She might not even be *fully* aware that she's doing things for the dark (though I'm sure she has an inkling).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 11:12:10
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
<b>She might not even be *fully* aware that she's doing things for the dark (though I'm sure she has an inkling).</b><br /><br />She better have more than just an inkling. She's GOT to figure out that her punisher is a DF after he/she beats the crap out of her. That's not a tactic that people who walk in the Light employ...well except the Cloaks but they don't count (at least in my mind).<br /><br />But no. There's too much evid in favor of he being Black Ajah, I just hope she gets found out and birched.<br /><br />And what did happen with her Warder? Did RJ just forget about him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 12:26:57
subject: <b>Why should it be the Hall of Salidar ?</b>
body:
I mean, ok, she wishes she had nevr talked to a sister in the Hall but could it be the WT's hall ? before the breaking of the tower, she could have talked to a black Sitter (say Talene for instance) and have been turned forcibly to the black because what she new was to dangerous for the black Ajah. It could even be an old event. That would explain was she was behaving odly with the Grey Men without saying she's Black.<br />And then she could be used by delana or Sheriam without any differance.


created: 2002-07-31 12:52:36
subject: <b>To Jiarmai</b>
body:
That was Alviarin who was whisked out of the Tower and into TaR by our good friend Ishy.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 16:01:13
subject: <b>It aint Delana DUH</b>
body:
Sheriam is basically a strong Aes Sedai for the times, with few greater in strenght than her. Delana is not an overly strong channeler as is mentioned somewhere.<br /><br />Also we know that Aran'gar got Delana to convince everyone to execute Loagin, needless to say unsuccessfully. This is to allow Aran'gar to channel saidin. Everything else in the camp that is remotely important for the shadow is done by Aran'gar him/herself. The freeing of Moggers (less painful for a saidar channeler) etc etc.<br /><br />And this also accounts for people not sensing that amount of saidar.<br /><br />IT IS ARAN'GAR<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 20:07:04
subject: <b>Alviarin?</b>
body:
That's who I think it is. Halima's a good possibility, but if she has delana and is close to Egwene, why would she need to beat Sheriam to get info on the Sitters?<br /><br />Anyway, Alviarin knows how to Travel and also would give a great deal to know the comings and goings of the Salidar circuit. Sheriam is one of the people in control, the highest among the Salidar Six, I might add. That's who she'd go to see if she wanted info. To put tyhe icing on the cake, in the very next chapter Alviarin is noted to have been gone from the White Tower for a while. I'm betting that she was with Sheriam.<br /><br />Just my comments anyway....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 23:09:30
subject: <b>Actually Moridin you make good points</b>
body:
about Alviarin. I guess I'm somewhat retracting my previous post and I believe that it is more likely to be Alviarin. I had never even considered her before.<br /><br />The actual quote about not wanting to speak to any sister in the Hall but not specifying which Hall could be the clincher or just something Jordan didn't specify further on. I had never noticed how Alviarin was commented as being away in a chapter after the one in which Sheriam's beating takes place, or at least I never made the possible connection.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 10:06:46
subject: <b>re:sheriam</b>
body:
No doubt Sheriam is fishy. But as of yet we havent seen one person forcibly turned. i believe she is black but through her own desires not from being turned. Possibly even intimidated into it, but i dont think so. Power corrupts so i would think Aes Sedai more easily persuaded to become DF in their quest for more power. According to the Guide about 2% of the population are DFs. Yet the percentage seems to be a good deal higher among the Aes Sedai, closer to 5% i do believe.


created: 2002-08-01 15:32:31
subject: <b>Alviarin</b>
body:
Yes, I hadn't considered her, but she is a good suspect. Halima already knows most of what is happenging through Delana. And everyone says &quot;people would know if someone was channeling enough to use air to beat her, so it has to be Halima.&quot; There are over 300 full AS with the army and 1,000 novices. They have women Traveling and Skimming all over the place sending/retrieving messages, not to mention small things they probably all do all the time.<br /><br />One note to ctown_woody. Yes, the Forsaken do not trust things that post date the AoL. But the Oath Rods are from the AoL.<br /><br />As for Sheriam actually being bound by the oath rods, everyone knows the &quot;truth you think you hear is not always the truth.&quot; AS are masters of aversion. Sure, she could say &quot;I've told you everything I know&quot; but it would be truly impossible to tell someone EVERYTHING she knows (it would take a lot of time to tell someone everything.) So maybe the interogator just wants to be sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 23:22:38
subject: <b>oath rod and AoL</b>
body:
Randwashere... yes, the oath rod is from the AoL but after the Breaking, many ter'angreal's original purposes were lost... While the Oath Rod may seem like an object that could have no other purpose, it is possible that the use that the Oath Rod now has is different from what it was used for before... not that I can think of one such purpose... just something that might be important to keep in mind...


created: 2002-08-02 05:31:48
subject: <b>re: imfunny</b>
body:
You said you can think of no other use for the oath rod besides what it is used for now.  What about binding Semirhage.  In on of her pov's she talks about her being given the choice of binding never to know her pleasures again or severing.  The binding could be done by the oath rod by making her swear to only cause as much pain as is absolutely necessary to heal someone.  That would be a use for the rod and still not be an oath.


created: 2002-08-02 09:56:21
subject: <b>Power usage is moot.</b>
body:
As Moggy and Messana proved, people can hide their ability to channel, their strength, ans the waves they produce by inverting them.  So it could justa as easily be a woman as a man.  Alvarian realized messana was using inverted weaves (not sure if that was before or after the beating though), so she could have figured it out on her own.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 11:24:36
subject: <b>re: oath rods</b>
body:
Yes, I was refering to them as the thinggy Sem was going to be bound by. I also believe they are what was termed &quot;the nine rods of dominion&quot;, but I couldn't remember for sure what they were called, so I didn't mention it. I seem to recall somewhere that one of the Forsaken remarked how they were stunned AS of the 3rd age would bind themselves so, to know their own deaths. Of course, I was being lazy and didn't want to try to research who and when that was said. Thanks for the comments. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-03 19:29:52
subject: <b>Hey...</b>
body:
I really have no opinion on this, i just wanted to say that actually there are about 12 million words in the english language.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 02:16:43
subject: <b>Re: Oath Rod</b>
body:
Right on Greymans Bane.  That sounds very much like a use for it before it was used for the binding of the Three Oaths.<br /><br />Randwashere: as for the Rods of Dominion, what exactly do we know about them? is that all we've really heard about them?  I remember either elayne (that bitch), or egwene or nynaeve found a rod that looked like the oath rod but had 111 on it instead of 3.  A rod of dominion maybe? Were they able to make it do anything?


created: 2002-08-05 03:20:58
subject: <b>RE: imfunny</b>
body:
Actually I think it was that shaido women who had rod 111.  Remember she bound that black ajah women with it.  As for the numbers on the rods I think they are something like a serial number because I cant think of any other reason to number them the way they are, or rather to have more then one of the nine rods of dominion do the same thing.


created: 2002-08-05 22:09:25
subject: <b>Greyman</b>
body:
Right again Greyman, I remember the event now.  Good call.  I think I'll go look it up when I get a chance, or if any of you guys out there know where it is, I'd appreciate a finger in the right direction.


created: 2002-08-06 01:51:12
subject: <b>Sheriam is serving the Dark (Unwillingly)</b>
body:
I agree wholeheartedly with Bad Ash's assessment that for Sheriam to know about the 13 Fade and 13 Channeler trick, she would either have to be Black or have been turned herself.<br /><br />If she was Black, she wouldn't want to tell a Black Ajah secret, but maybe she was doing the best she could to sneak out information while under compulsion by the Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 01:50:11
subject: <b>What actually happens...</b>
body:
Do we know what actually happens when a person gets forcibly turned to the shadow?  So far, all we know about it is that it takes thirteen Aes Sedai channeling through thirteen Myrddraal, but that's about it.  We never learn what the results of this conversion actually are.  All we know is that when Egwene went through her test for Accepted, Rand sasy that they can do it to him.  But he never says what would happen to him.  I doubt that one would automatically turn evil and start praising the DO  when this happens.  It could be that it simply forces them to obey Dark friends as if bound by an Oath Rod, but leaves room to wiggle out.  It is quite possible that Sheriam got caught, and is trying to fight back as best she can.


created: 2002-08-12 07:29:27
subject: <b>Sheriam is Black .. and willingly I think</b>
body:
First off, I caught her lying back in TDR (Ch 22) when she says, &quot;It took 13 Dreadlords - Darkfriends who can channel - weaving the flows through 13 Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today...&quot;<br /><br />Now you think that she believes the BA doesn't exist? not really .. coz a few lines further...<br /><br />&quot;Thirteen,&quot; Egwene said. &quot;The same number who left the Tower. Liandrin, and twelve more.&quot;<br />Sheriam's face hardened. &quot;That is nothing for you to dwell on. You will forget it.&quot;<br /><br />Well, now its pretty obvious she lied (she knew Liandrin is BA), and I doubt the BA managed to take the Mistress of the Novices away from the WT to use 13 Myrddraal (Unless you think they got the Myrddraal to the Tower itself, which ....) so this basically proves that she is Black and of her own free will. Hey I hated it when I figured it out (I mean .. SHERIAM!) but ..... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> A Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Band <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> My 3 Ladies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 05:30:39
subject: <b>Sheriam's warder</b>
body:
didn't Sheriam's warder get killed in the Tower when Siuan was desposed??? Anywho...I think it was Halima too. And I think that Sheriam is one of those people who were turned to the dark using the 13-13 thing...just my 2 cents...


created: 2002-08-21 13:21:40
subject: <b>More evidence for Alviarian</b>
body:
Back in The Great Hunt, I think at the end of ch 24, Min was questioned about Rand by Eladia. Min thinks this odd because only Moraine and Sheriam knew who she was. I think Sheriam is in cahoots with Eladia. She told Eladia of Min. We know Eladia sent 12 WT loyal sisters with the rebels. We also know they did not know of each other. If Eladia and Sheriam were buddies who better to send? If Eladia sent her alviarian would know, since she was the keeper. So Sheriam is not black, but is Eladia's spy and was whupped by Alviarian.<br /><br />Mud


created: 2002-10-15 09:43:54
subject: <b>13 + 13 = Uh Oh !</b>
body:
Has nobody thought (with all this talk of her knowing about the 13 Myrdraal and 13 Dreadlords bit) that perhaps Sheriam herself is the first person we've come across who this dastardly thing has been done to?  Since we have not encountered someone who has gone through this, maybe we are seeing for the first time someone who is trapped in a situation but still has no love for the dark?  Just a postumulous pondering<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 15:09:59
subject: <b>Binders</b>
body:
The Oath Rod is a relic from the AOL, but it is merely a &quot;binder.&quot;  Sammael and Semirhage both refer to them as this.  Not as a &quot;Rod of Dominon.&quot;  We don't know what these Rods are, but they are clearly not Binders.  OK, for evidence:  Semi's quote.  &quot;To be bound to never know her pleasures again, and with that binding see the end of her life approach...&quot;  sounds like the Oath Rod to me.  Second, the Oath Rod has the numeral 3 on it.  The binder Sammael sold to Sevanna had the numeral 111 on it.  If these binders were labeled by number, as it would seem, since 111&gt;9, the binders cannot be the Rods of Dominion.  Remember, Galina describes the effects of Sevanna's binder to be the exact same as those on the Oath Rod, the tingling, the tightening of the skin, etc.<br /><br />Oath Rod = Binder, a common AOL ter'angreal.<br />9 Rods of Dominion = RAFO.


created: 2006-09-03 14:37:40
subject: <b>Delana</b>
body:
In Lord of Chaos it says that Delana was the only one to fully support Sheriam. I think this is because Delana is higher in the darkfriend standings and tells Sheriam what to do so she's really supporting herself.


created: 2008-04-03 18:21:21
subject: <b>Yup, Sheriam is Black Ajah</b>
body:
I had the same &quot;Ew! No!&quot; moment as Rand Shadow Killer: <br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Sheriam is Black .. and willingly I think<br />Submitted by Rand Shadow Killer on 8/12/2002 7:29:27 AM  <br />First off, I caught her lying back in TDR (Ch 22) when she says, &quot;It took 13 Dreadlords - Darkfriends who can channel - weaving the flows through 13 Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today...&quot;<br /><br />Now you think that she believes the BA doesn't exist? not really .. coz a few lines further...<br /><br />&quot;Thirteen,&quot; Egwene said. &quot;The same number who left the Tower. Liandrin, and twelve more.&quot;<br />Sheriam's face hardened. &quot;That is nothing for you to dwell on. You will forget it.&quot;<br /><br />Well, now its pretty obvious she lied (she knew Liandrin is BA), and I doubt the BA managed to take the Mistress of the Novices away from the WT to use 13 Myrddraal (Unless you think they got the Myrddraal to the Tower itself, which ....) so this basically proves that she is Black and of her own free will. Hey I hated it when I figured it out (I mean .. SHERIAM!) but .....  &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br />


created: 2002-08-01 00:11:59
subject: <b>What about other animals?</b>
body:
They are other animals in the Unseen World. Are they Reborn too? Can't there be a deer-brothers also? If wolves are reborn it is not like the Horn because they do not remember their past lives.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 03:23:48
subject: <b>Wolfbrothers</b>
body:
i reckon if wolfbrothers were spun out again their souls would be like anyone elses besides the heroes maybe<br />but i think the ability to communicate with wolves has sprung up and may be kept in future lives perhaps<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 08:57:25
subject: <b>wolf = wolfbrother</b>
body:
perhaps a wolfbrother is the soul of a wolf which has been born this time as a human, and when they die they are once again the wolf in the dream realm.  an abberant birth which is smoothed out over time.  since humans don't remember the dream world, then a wolf born as a man would suffer the same (slowly remembering and gaining control) until death returnes him to the greater world.


created: 2002-08-01 11:39:56
subject: <b>Problem is, wolves don't get reborn.</b>
body:
You see, the thing is, Wolves don't leave Tel'Aran'Rhiod when they are alive.  They are always there, like all other untamed animals.  So wolves, essentially, have no &quot;soul&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 12:16:39
subject: <b>very possible....</b>
body:
Analogies to other wild animals in TAR don't work because we don't know of any other animal capable of communication with humans. I think the limited number of wolves in TAR and their willingness to die in order to kill a <i>Neverborn</i> are excellent points.  Nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 13:41:05
subject: <b>Yeah good theory</b>
body:
Something I don't quite get is (and these aren't exact quotes) when Elyas said that wolves remember running with humans from a time that is older than old or something like that.<br /><br />Is this early, early on in the current spin of the Wheel (i.e. the previous 4th Age) or is it something remembered from a time before any cycles, as in early creation or some such?<br /><br />If the latter is the case, would this imply that at one point (or for a period) time was linear until the Wheel began turning????? Does that make sense to anyone?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 15:15:18
subject: <b>Thoughts</b>
body:
Wolfbrothers can communicate with wolves and can enter T'A'R (the Wolf Dream), but unlike wolves, they don't exist in both places simoultaneously.  They are humans that can touch the wolves' existance, but are not part of it.  Therefore, Wolfbrothers would be part of the pattern in the same way every other human is.  Are Aes Sedai souls always reborn as channelers?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  Perrin and Elyas may be very old souls that the pattern didn't need again until now, similar, I suppose, to Min, who has another unique ability.  I agree that wolves are probably constanly reborn, and would love to see a Hopper Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 15:49:27
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Yep, I pretty much agree with all of this theoy. In reply to the question about an earlier, linear period of time, I suspect that the thing about men running with wolves in a time &quot;older than old&quot; ,or whatever, refers to a previous 3rd or 4th age, with a larger population of wolfbrothers.<br />If we take each age to be roughly the length of the current one, around 3,000 years, the previous version of the 3rd age would be at least 4 ages back, presumably, or 12,000 years ago. That's plenty long enough for something to fade into an extremely vague myth - how many legends can you think of from 10,000 BC ?!<br />   Seia Cair<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 16:58:50
subject: <b>Wolfbrothers</b>
body:
Hmm...wolfbrothers being spun out just like the heros.  Makes me wonder how many might actually be out right now.<br /><br />Wolfbrothers--Manetheren Royal Guard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-02 15:40:10
subject: <b>Cool Theory</b>
body:
I never have spent much time pondering over the wolves in WoT, though Hopper is one of my favorite characters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 11:17:37
subject: <b>Wolves and the Past</b>
body:
The comment about wolves and men running together probably is not from the previous 3rd age, as that would be 21,000 years ago, not 12,000 (there are 7 ages, not 4). The comment probably dates back no further than the 2nd or 1st age.<br /><br />Throughout the fantasy genre, wolves are often given great significance. I'm not sure why fantasy authors are drawn to them, but the idea of men communicating with wolves is relatively common, so I'm not surprised that RJ incorporated into his series.<br /><br />All in all, I like the idea that wolves are reincarnated and retain their memories, which accounts for their fearlessness. I imagine tha the only reason Hopper hasn't been spun back out into the pattern is because the wheel needs him in TAR to help Perrin.<br /><br />I also like the idea that a wolf-brother is a wolf accidentally reincarnated as a human, although I would think that the other wolves would know this. However, given the odd and somethimes cryptic way they communicate, they may know.<br /><br />My $0.02<br /><br />R<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-03 12:49:23
subject: <b>one simple idea on WB</b>
body:
acording to this could not a wolf brother be the soul of a wolf reborn into a human or a human soul that in the next live will join that of the wolfs.


created: 2002-12-08 21:10:27
subject: <b>I think this works with</b>
body:
the fact that Perrin has dreams that are &quot;real&quot; dreams, kinda like Egwene.  I mean, his aren't really like Egwene's, just that they are both true dreams.  Anyways, yeah, if all wolves that are, were, and will be are in TAR, then there is a sense of limited omniscience.  So Perrin being a wolfbrother, either his soul is that of a wolf or somehow similar to a wolf's soul, so he joins wolves in their communal omniscience, thus he has dreams that draw from that knowledge.<br /><br />That wasn't clear, I know, but oh well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 15:43:11
subject: <b>yaaaaaaayy</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> a hopper theory<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />my favourite character gets a say<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 15:28:07
subject: <b>With hindsight</b>
body:
We know Perrin is not a wolf reborn.<br /><br />RJ has said that, like Min and Hurin, there are others in the World like them. The Wheel spins out these talents when needed, otherwise these souls are spun out in a normal fashion, as, too, are taveren.<br /><br />I believe I believe there are more wolves than you indicate. Just as Gaidal Cain was unseen by Perrin, there must be ways to avoid human contact in TAR. Birgitte broke the &quot;law&quot; by making herself known.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 00:09:12
subject: <b>Wow I get first comment</b>
body:
The idea is a good one but I don't think it will happen.  Remember, Elayne won't accept help from Bashere because he and his army are not Andorians.  Why then would she accept help from the Band?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 01:46:09
subject: <b>TEN THOUSAND NOW</b>
body:
THE BAND NUMBERS TEN THOUSAND AT LASR COUNT.<br />OH YEAH; RAND WAS ALSO VIEWED WITH A SEVERED HAND AND A WHITE HOT IRON.<br /><br />BUT ON THE POSITIVE SIDE; THE BAND KNEW THAT MAT WAS WITH ELAYNE AND WAS MEANT TO BE ESCORTING HER TO ANDOR.


created: 2002-08-01 02:07:23
subject: <b>The bansd's usefullness</b>
body:
**warning** : something about Glimmers ahead, I wouldn't want to spoil anyones surprise.<br /><br />Ok, we know from Glimmers that the siege of Tar Valon has already begun and Bryne doesn't need more soldiers than he already has : with the 30-odd thousand soldiers Bryne can count on, and the WT falling from inside (the Blacks beeing uncovered and the Ajah's heads meeting, probably to pull down Elaida) the WT won't be so hard take, at least it won't be an enormous bloodshed, even if it takes 2 books to happen.<br /><br />Of couse, Elayne desperately needs soldiers but she doesn't want mercenaries like the band and certainly not &quot;Dragonsworn&quot; as she sees them. She'd like to have natives Andorans swearing fealty like any other army. She's also too stuborn to change her mind about that. But she's already facing a siege by the other Houses contesting for the Lion Throne so maybe she COULD change her mind.<br /><br />Then, rmember, Talmanes said he would let himself stay a little while in Murandy, paid by the would-be-king to help him get a hold on the whole country. It's pretty far from tar Valon without Travelling. And then, it's pretty near many people we know:<br />- Mat coming north with Tuon<br />- Perrin and Masema moving east and north to Caemlyn<br />- What remains of the Whitecloaks army fleeing from the Seanchan<br />- Sevanna's Shido (can you imagine Talmanes rescuing Faile without Perrin knowing ? THAT would be a twist ! )<br /><br />So I guess there will be enough work for the Band to do without making it return to Caemlyn.


created: 2002-08-01 02:14:11
subject: <b>GLIMMERS SPOILERS</b>
body:
S<br />P<br />O<br />I<br />L<br />E<br />R<br />S<br /><br /><br />Okay, now I've made that obvious, some objections. <br />1)We have seen the armies outside Caemlyn. There were, as Elayne feared, those of rival nobles. No Ogier, no Younglings, no Whitecloaks, no Band. Robert Jordan has no imagination at times... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />2)The Band is about 10,000 at the moment, way larger than those armies in any case. <br />3)Elayne has refused all help from Bashere and his Saldaeans or the Aiel. Because they are Rand's troops, and if they help her take the throne she will be seen as nothing more than Rand's puppet, and she cannot allow that. She has to take the throne herself, without Rand's aid, or that of men who are effectively Dragonsworn. He can say he believes she is the Queen of Andor and Cairhien, but he can't give her any practical aid. <br />4)The Band are in Murandy, and there would have been news of such an army vanishing. Therefore they can't help Egwene either; they can't get to TV in time. <br />5)The Band have to stay where they are so Mat can join up with them. However it is possible Mat will THEN head for TV or Caemlyn, but given the timescale involved this shoudl be well after Egwene and/or Elayne have taken their rightful places. Egwene probably won't need his help taking the Tower; she cannot take any aid from Rand either, or all the AS will despise her, and she has 50,000 men according to Gawyn, as well as the aid of an imminent small-scale internal war in the Tower between the BA and the BA Hunters. <br />6)The severed hand is far more likely to be related to Rand's severed hand viewing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 03:03:05
subject: <b>The band can help....</b>
body:
The Band is a remanant of Menatheran which is now part of Caemlyn. Mat is a resident of the Two Rivers and therefore a subject of Caemyln. The Band is Mat's so in essence they are loyal to a loyal subject of the nation thus making Mat a lord with his own retainers. This could be enough to justify there help. Plus Mat has been adamant about helping Elayne no matter what due to his promise to Rand. Rand can't help, Mat can.


created: 2002-08-01 03:59:34
subject: <b>A response to some points:</b>
body:
&quot;1. We know of no other reference to severed hands through 10 books. &quot;<br /><br />Moiraine tells the story of Prince al'Caar or Manetheren who goes to Aridhol (Shadar Logoth) to create an alliance. Mordeth (Fain) cuts off his hand and sends him back. In one of the early books, (tGH, I believe) Rand says that he would cut his hand off before he channels again. In EotW, Rand has nightmares of Fain (who he does not know is a DF yet) chasing him screaming &quot;Give me your hand!&quot;.<br /><br />Also, a reference outside the books: Rand is an allusion to the god Tyr. At Ragnarok, Tyr freed the wolf god (Finaris, or something) but the wolf bit off his hand. <br /><br />&quot;4. This is an educated estimate: Talmanes and many of the Band are from Cairhien, and may have some degree of loyalty for protecting one who has a strong claim to their country's throne (even if they've sort've eschewed politics), who was also an object for protection by their Lord, and who is a paramour of the Dragon Reborn. They may be a bit more willing than normal to assist. Also, Egwene certainly would want them to aid Elayne if and when she knows of the problem, rather than sit around and destabilize a region as an unaffiliated army in the middle of a hot spot.&quot;<br /><br />First of all, have you read Glimmers? If not, do NOT read the rest of this paragraph!!! Bael tells Bashere that they can destroy the massing armies, but Bashere tells him no because if Elayne uses foregin soldiers, the entire nation will turn on her and she will be ousted. If she wouldn't use the Aiel, who could and would break these 'armies' in a heartbeat, she will not use the Band. Besides, I would think that the Whitecloaks would as soon go against orders from their leader as the Band would. They were ordered to follow Egwene, and that's where they'll go, I would think.<br /><br />&quot;6. Something esoteric: Mat's memories of Manetheren, the last known existence of the Band of the Hand, he was a ranking aide to the King, I believe. They were, essentially, his 'heartguard', and defending him and his Aes Sedai queen. This would be something of a repeat, with the Band once more defending the Queen of their leader's &quot;King&quot; (Rand). This is a bit of a stretch, but not really much of one.&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure where you were going at the end there since the queen died in the city, nt the battle field and therefore had no heartguard protecting her that the stories tell of. Also, Mat was the King, not an aide or General: he was the King. This was discussed and proven about a month ago. Look up the theory; it has some good discussion.<br /><br />&quot;Okay, so here's the situation: We have 4 armies approaching Caemlyn, all numbering around 5000, according to Norry. We have one friendly army whose actions are unaccounted for, who last we saw, was pretty close. They're estimated to be 6000 strong. It's also a natural to think that The Band of the Hand is one of them, or at least close enough to do something about it. &quot;<br /><br />You're forgetting something that Norry said: The armies are approaching from the East. So therefore, the Band would have had to travel around the country before going into it, and there was no time. As well, the numbers are off: as mentioned above, the Band was at about 10,000 at last count.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 11:13:27
subject: <b>andoran subjects</b>
body:
My two cents.<br />If I'm not mistaken a good portion of the band is Andoran not any other nation.  I don't have the books in front of me but when Mat is in that Andoran town on the river the band grew to twice the size it was at the beginning so Elanye could take support from those elements of the band giving her several thousand more troops and still fullfil the viewing.


created: 2002-08-01 16:24:12
subject: <b>Not Aide......KING!</b>
body:
Mat was the King not a Kings aide.  I'll give you a headsup Vashti.  Here goes.... Lookup the theory 'King Aemon Reborn' and then read the comments on the theory.  It was proven that Mat was indeed, without a doubt King Aemon.<br /><br />Vashti if you can prove to me that Elayne would welcome the Band's help then I might have a reason to think that you might have something.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 19:35:37
subject: <b>Some Responses:</b>
body:
I have not yet read Glimmers, so I can't respond to anything about that.  since it evidently identifies the four armies and one isn't the Hand, that disproves the extension of the theory, but not the theory in full (that the Band of the Hand is the severed Hand and that they will aid Egwene).<br /><br />I've racked my brain and cannot find the reference to Rand's hand being severed.  Could someone please remind me?<br /><br />Now to counter the counterpoints:<br /><br />That Elayne denies Bashere's and the Aiel's help is understandable, as they would be seen as influence.  Well, at least comprehensible.  Sounds a lot to me like she's risking the welfare of the land for her own ambition. But I haven't read Glimmers yet, as I said. <br /><br />But the Band, on the other hand, is a free agent now.  Heck, we have Talmanes talking with Egwene about hiring out to a local noble.  They are, effectively, mercenaries.  That makes them eligible to be hired by Elayne, esp. since Talmanes is a Cairhinien noble and currently the de facto leader of the Band of the Hand (and Elayne has a claim to the throne of Cairhien.  It is proven that he feels he can accept a commission of his choosing. <br /><br />Unless Glimmers said anything, they were last on the BORDER of Andor, or just over, so they are still nearby.  And Elayne moved the Kin and their caravan with traveling...no doubt she can do the same with the Band.  Egwene may inform her of Talmanes' mercenary standing (and location) in their night-time dream discussions.<br /><br />So the possibility for hiring them is there; the willingness of Elayne to hire them should be accepted, since they do not have the ties that she evidently rejects from the others.  Interestingly, Mat is still an Andoran citizen, so even if people decided to confuse it, that would leave the loophole. <br /><br />Columbo, in response to your King Aemon comment, I went and checked the site and did not find it as decided as you claimed it to be -- especially since your 'clinching argument' in that thread was that Mat was Aemon and would marry Egwene, and we all know for an absolute certainty that he will NOT marry Egwene, but Tuon.  And she will marry Gawyn, or be slain by him.  So I dismiss that argument and it remains the esoterica that I labeled it.<br /><br />Thank you for the responses, folks.


created: 2002-08-01 21:13:55
subject: <b>A response to a response</b>
body:
I gave the references to Rand losing a hand above. To be honest, I don't remember exactly which page or chapters they are in, but I'm sure that someone here will remember and post it. If not, noteboard Matrimony Cauthon. He has this great link to a site that help look these things up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;That Elayne denies Bashere's and the Aiel's help is understandable, as they would be seen as influence. Well, at least comprehensible. Sounds a lot to me like she's risking the welfare of the land for her own ambition. But I haven't read Glimmers yet, as I said. &quot;<br /><br />I'm not exactly sure why it would be acceptable to use one group of foregieners and yet not anothr. I'm sure that once you read Glimmers you will understand what I am saying.<br /><br />As far as the hiring of Mercenaries, yeah. I think that would work. However, I still just don't knowif Elayne would go so far as to hire an entire foregien ARMY. I know that she's hiring a few outlander mercenaries, but strill. An entire army? I think that since the Band is largley Cairrhenien, as you said, it would be like Cairheniens fighting an Andoran civil war and that is exactly why Elayne will not use Bashere ofr the Aiel.<br /><br />&quot;So the possibility for hiring them is there; the willingness of Elayne to hire them should be accepted, since they do not have the ties that she evidently rejects from the others. Interestingly, Mat is still an Andoran citizen, so even if people decided to confuse it, that would leave the loophole. &quot; <br /><br />I still do not see why Elayne would hire the Band when she will not use Bashere and the Aiel. It just doesnt make any sense.<br /><br />Oh, and I also had something in my post above (you must have missed it, I guess) about the Band's location.Norry says that the armies are apporaching from the East in WH. The Band is to the west of Caemlyn. As far as timelines go, Glimmers takes place about a week or so into the Siege of Tar Valon, so that does not give them enough time to do a switcheroo to the East side before WH and Norry's comment(damn, RJ really should get all of these timelines in order!)<br /><br />Oh, and as far as Mat being a general or Aide... uh-uh. It just does not make sense. That memory in tDR was from the Last Stand of Manetheren. We know this because Mat, in that battle, remarks on the name of the river and that is the name of the river at which the last battle of M ws fought. Oh, and there's no way that Mat's army would have won that one. Not as stupidly outnumbered as they were. Anyway, the point is that in that Battle Mat was in command of the Heart Guard. They follow HIM into battle when he charges. A heart guard does not do this for a General; they do it for a king. Besides, thhat King was a Warder and therefore must have known all about battlles and therefore would have been more than capable of leading his army. As well, in eotW, Mat screams the King's battle cry. Not the nations' cry, but the King's PERSONAL cry as remarked my Moiraine. It is my most sincere belief that Mat is Aemon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 11:49:24
subject: <b>The Band of the Hand</b>
body:
Yes, Elayne will NOT allow help from a foreign army. I would think an army of Cairhien would be especially bad, considering the bad blood between those two nations historically speaking, regardless of Elayne's claim to the Cairhien throne. She will have to get Andor on her own, then go after the Sun Throne.<br /><br />I think it is very obvious from Glimmers that the Band is not one of the four armies. The question is, as GG points out very succinctly, is whether the Band is a mercenary army know, under leadership of a native Andoran, Mat, or simply a bunch of Tearean and Cairhein nobles. If they are an army under the leadership of an Andoran noble(Mat could arguably be called a noble, Perrin is), then Elayne might feel she could accept the help of an Andoran noble and let the army and Mat side with her. Who's to say at this point. RAFO, damn it all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Peace, Out V<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 12:23:01
subject: <b>It's clear they are mercenary</b>
body:
I think it's obvious.  If they are not effectively a mercenary organization, then why does Talmanes (and Egwene) believe he is capable of accepting (or rejecting) a job offer from a no-name Lugard noble?<br /><br />If they can accept a commission from the noble, then they can accept one from Elayne.<br /><br />Let me point out something:  when I say 'mercenary', I mean strictly in the sense that they are not limited by obligations to any save that which they choose (which will usually by default be Rand, whenever he needs them).  They are not affiliated with anyone, officially.  <br /><br />Remember, most people don't even know who they are.  Gareth Byrne didn't when they first arrived, and they've been pinned to him ever since. And those who do hear of them won't understand the reference of their name.<br /><br />Also, when I mention Cairhienin or Andoran relations, I use that to discuss personal inclination.  I would say they can no longer be considered of any nationality -as a group-. After all, they were drawing recruits just as Byrne was, so they're also Lugard, Altaran, etc. <br /><br />Once more, my theory was that the Band was the 'hand' in question, and they would aid Elayne.  That they are not one of the four merely cuts short some further speculation.<br /><br />Thanks again for the responses and civil discourse.


created: 2002-08-02 12:42:04
subject: <b>Vashti....</b>
body:
hahahaha....you disregard everything re Mat being Aemon because of a comment on Egwene?  Forget about that.  And if that disproves it, try this on.  It is accepted that Toun has the ability to channel.  She will be my Egwene.  Mat is still King Aemon Reborn.  <br /><br />I CHALLENGE you to prove otherwise to me.  The passage where Mat recalls the scene is availble for you to look up.  If you feel up to the challenge, then lets get started.  Maybe something new will arise out of it.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />Look forward to hearing from you Vashti. <br /><br />Welcome back Randwashere,  its been awhile. Nice to have your feedback as always.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 13:24:45
subject: <b>*chuckle*</b>
body:
All I said was that I checked out what you said was completely proven and found that it certainly wasn't as 'decided' as you claimed it was.  Oh, I know YOU were certain of it, but I pointed to your demonstrably (and seriously) flawed statement as evidence that you being certain of a particular theory didn't equate to it being fact. <br /><br />Plus, you made a pretty strong and shocking statement about the relationships of two of the primary characters that was incredibly incorrect.  This isn't the first time, nor is it new.


created: 2002-08-02 14:48:06
subject: <b>Vashti.....</b>
body:
hahahahahaha.....So I made a mistake.  It looked good at the time and I was feeling inspired.  The problem is I just got a little carried away.  Their were things that pointed to Mat and Egwene at the time.  I have seen the light and have submited to you Tuon.<br /><br />That being said,  It still doesn't change the fact that Mat is Aemon reborn.  I CHALLENGE you to read the passage in question and then give an educated response.  At the moment I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.  Reread and then respond.  <br /><br />Will Vashti take the challenge?  We shall see.  After all Vashti used this in his theory?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 14:50:54
subject: <b>Hands</b>
body:
&quot;She says that a great deal,&quot; Elayne said dryly. &quot;One of the things she said she saw looking at me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says. She claims she does not know what it means,either.&quot;  TGH New Friends and Old Enemies.<br /><br />-- The Hand was severed from Mat because of Elayne.  If Rand hand not sent the Band for Elayne, Mat would not have been severed from it.  I see no hint that it will help her here.<br /><br />&quot;What about me?&quot; Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. &quot;The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral<br />bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood -&quot;  The Eye of the World - Strangers and Friends<br /><br />--  I always thought this was an interesting prophecy.  A pair of triplets Sword that isn't a sword and golden crown done from first triplet.  Water on the sand from the second.  Logically, the bloody hand and white-hot iron would be next.  <br /><br />I also think that the Black Tower might be part of the salvation of Elayne's situation, after Tam is gone.  They also are under siege, as they are located here.  Another thought just hit me, the children of Rand and Elayne would have very strong blood ties to the throne of Andor.  That would be an interesting resolution.  <br /><br />Most likely, to me, is that trollocs will swarm over the borders and the argument will have to be put aside until later.  Especially if the forces of the DO use the Ways.


created: 2002-08-02 15:34:34
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
I'm not sure what you're challenging me to do?  I don't think Mat is Aemon reborn.  I don't have any emotional attachment to that feeling.  I just don't think you decidedly proved the issue, though maybe you are right. I don't know.  I don't think so, but it's not important -- to me at least.<br /><br />Are you trying to revisit another theory within this one?<br /><br />However, if you're trying to break down a theory on relationships by citing one that is very, very wrong... THAT I'm going to call you on.  Tuon and Egwene are not interchangeable.  One is a Power-hating princess who doesn't even know she can channel; the other is the Amyrlin Seat of the Rebel Tower.  When likening one to the Aes Sedai Queen...it falls apart.


created: 2002-08-02 15:47:16
subject: <b>Not too bad, actually...</b>
body:
Makes some sense. Although you kept referring to it as 'the Band of the Hand' when it's 'the Band of the Red Hand.' Other than that minor error, this was a rather intelligent theory.<br /><br />Changing the subject, did you see the 'Aviendha is a Pyro' badge I've got on, Vashti? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 17:43:54
subject: <b>Mercinaries</b>
body:
I have no doubt that Talmanes consideres the Mat-less Band to be mercinaries, but whether or not Elayne would consider them to be is the question. I personally think it would solve a big problem she has with her army, not to mention that darkfriend Daved Hanlon being Captain Commander or whatever it is that he is. **SPOILER HERE*<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />I assume he may be the one that backhanded the civilian who didn't move fast enough after being rescued from the seiging army.)<br /><br />Ours is not to question why, ours is but to read or die. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 01:03:09
subject: <b>Not to split hairs....</b>
body:
but if you read the interview with Jordan at the end of Glimmers, (in case an interview counts as a spoiler, stop reading if you haven't gotten Glimmers) RJ says that these aren't Mat's memories.  Just random memories to fill the holes, which is what he inadvertantly requested through the doorway.  So he isn't anybody reborn, be it king or aide. <br /> As far as the theory, I don't think it's gonna go down this way, for many of the reasons stated.


created: 2002-08-04 22:28:28
subject: <b>*Sigh* I guess we have to revisit Mat as Aemon</b>
body:
There is just too much confusion already.<br /><br />Ok, here is a brief recap of Mat and his memories. This is for WtrNshade and the rest of you that don't know the order of these things.<br /><br />Ok, after Mat got healed from the dagger, in the chapter aptly named &quot;Awakenings&quot; in book 3, The Dragon Reborn, Mat wakes up and is a little foggy in the head. The first thing that happens to him is he has a flashback to commanding the Heart Guard of Manatheren at the nations final stand. Some of us on the Theory Board are under the understanding that this is Mat in a past life, as King Aemon of Manatheren <br /><br />The taint of the dagger is what put all the holes in Mat's memories. Or maybe it was the healing, maybe a combo of the two. Anyway&#8230;<br /><br />So later, book 4 now, The Shadow Rising, Mat visits the second door frame Ter&#8217;angreal (can't remember if it's the snakes or the foxes, but it's not really important for the point here) and he asks for the holes in his memory to be filled. He doesn't say he wants HIS memories back, just for the holes to be filled, and as RJ says *GLIMMERS SPOILER AHEAD* they put the memories of OTHER people in there.  *END GLIMMERS SPOILER*<br /><br /><br />So, just so that timeline is clear, Mat had the flashback as what some of us believe was King Aemon of Manatheren BEFORE he got the memories put in his head by the Finns. <br /><br />We all clear on that?<br /><br />hehe, sry to be harsh, we have just beat on this one so much you can't even tell it's a horse anymore!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 12:10:59
subject: <b>Thanks, Windsor</b>
body:
For the recap. <br /><br />I guess I feel for the Aemon thing, based on the Heartguard stuff, that it could either be Aemon...OR any member of the Heartguard who would use the King's personal battlecry.  And Elite Guards have commanders as well -- such as Daved Hanlon and Tam (other examples of leader figures of elite guards that we have encountered, either in their past or present -- and yes, I know, Tam was 'only' 2nd Captain). <br /><br />Thus, until we have more information, a leading figure in a personal bodyguard shouting out the personal warcry doesn't establish that it is Aemon, only the possibility.<br /><br />And...it sticks in my memory that somewhere, Mat remembered cautioning Aemon against making the stand in the ford and/or accepting the offered deal.  I confess this is a suspect memory of mine and hope someone can verify or negate that.


created: 2002-08-05 12:59:28
subject: <b>Been away....</b>
body:
If Mat being Aemon reborn means little to you Vashti, then...... I will still go done this road.  The reason being that I feel strongly that their is enough proof. If you would like to participate that would be great.  It would be nice to have someone who won't pull any punches.  I will look up the passage and then post it here for everyone thats interested to have a look and respond.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />P.S. &quot; let it be this.  Henceforth, a man who steals will have his right hand cut off. &quot;    -  Masema ( Prophet )<br />FOH pg. 612.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 16:11:33
subject: <b>Mat remembering giving Aemon advice</b>
body:
I too remember this vaguely, but mostly because it has been talked about here on the Theory Board. <br /><br />It is easily explained however. If the flashback that Mat had leading the Heart Guard is indeed him as Aemon in a past life. Then one of the memories of other people he was given could have been one of an aid or advisor to Aemon himself. <br /><br />You see, Aemon are the memories of his past life, the memory of somebody advising Aemon was a memory given to him by the Finns.<br /><br />If you recall in Chapter 9 of The Eye of the World - Tellings of the Wheel, as Moiraine is telling the tale of Manatheren to the people of Edmonds Field. She tells it such that Aemon was calling the shots, as in leading the army: <br /><br />&lt;Aemon had sent out messengers. Aid was promised if they could hold for but three days at the Tarendrelle. Hold for three days against odds that should overwhelm them in the first hour. Yet somehow, through bloody assault and desperate defense, they held through an hour, and the second hour, and the third. For three days they fought, and though the land became a butcher's yard, no crossing of the Tarendrelle did they yield. By the third night no help had come, and no messengers, and they fought on alone. For six days. For nine. And on the tenth day Aemon knew the bitter taste of betrayal. No help was coming, and they could hold the river crossings no more.&quot;&gt;<br /><br />I believe the aid was asked of the Aes Sedai, but none of them came. I think it mentions in the guide that The Amyrlyn was jealous of the Queen of Manatheren because she was an Aes Sedai and also a queen, giving her too much power. That is the betrayal that Aemon knows, that no Aes Sedai came to help. I would have to look all this up to be sure. This could also be why Mat is so anti-Aes Sedai, if he is indeed Aemon, than they betrayed him in a past life.<br /><br /><br />Book 1 &#8211; The Eye of the World &#8211; Chapter 19 &#8211; Shadows Waiting - Perrin says:<br />&lt;&quot;Aemon's warcry, she said - right? Maybe you're Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond's Field is, I'd think you would like that - being a king and hero reborn.&quot;&gt;<br /><br />Book 3 &#8211; The Dragon Reborn &#8211; Chapter 19 &#8211; Awakenings (pre-finn visit)<br />Mat&#8217;s hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. &#8220;Los Valdar Cuebiyari, &#8220; he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant - &#8220;Forward the Heart Guard,&#8221; or maybe &#8220;The Heart Guard will advance&#8221;&gt;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 16:27:40
subject: <b>Oh one more thing</b>
body:
The post by Shinowa is something I never considered. It really opened my eyes. If I had to vote on anything, I would say the severed hand has already happened, as Shinowa points out. Now all we need is for RJ to graft Mat back to his army at some point.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 01:45:05
subject: <b>Nada</b>
body:
My personal belief is that at some point, probably immediately after Tarmon Gaidon, Elayne will cut off Rand's hand. Maybe he is hold Callandor and can't let go this time and the only way to save him is to remove the hand. Hmm...that is beginning to sound like Frodo at Mt. Doom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 03:26:12
subject: <b>I hear ya Nada</b>
body:
but I have always thought that if anybody was going to do something bad to Rand, it was going to be Mat. For his own good mind, but still, that whole theory of Mat as the betrayer, and him in deep with the Scanchan right now, well, I just hope all is forgiven in the end...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 17:40:04
subject: <b>Windsor</b>
body:
The passage in question, has nothing re; Mat giving orders to Aemon.  In fact Aemon's name is not mentioned.  Which also points to Aemon's POV.  You have also supplied some good facts.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 07:22:14
subject: <b>whew!!!</b>
body:
I really did try to read the other post before hand but I gave up.  And because of that I fully expect this one to get passed over by like minded wotmaniacs.  But I would like to suggest, and I think that I have done so on other occasions, that you all reconsider.  I have heard several thoughts and referenced to the Band as the hand in both visions for Egwene and Rand.  As well as the unfortunate and rampant concept that a vision be taken literally i.e. Rand losing a hand and Mat losing an eye.  What i would like to point out to you is that their is more than one hand in the wot one much more important to the virtual King and Queen of channelers Rand and Egwene in that they are an organization that holds togeather an unfortunate system of belief that thinks to punish channelers.<br />The Hand of the Light of the Children of the Light, with the bloody crook they shepard the Children like the confused sheep that they are.  Yes I know that the Whitecloaks seem well on their way to defeat but they are surely not done with.  These are some very resilient sheep.  Sheep that terrorize countless people up throught the city of Tar Valon itself. Yeah, well thats my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 16:14:31
subject: <b>Not bad...</b>
body:
...Also believed that Demandred is using the Children by myself and others.  It also happens to be Galad's vehicle at the moment.  The Children will play a role in future books, they are not finished yet.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 22:27:19
subject: <b>Mat doesn't think himself as subject to the lion throne</b>
body:
Ok just to clarify the most glaring mistake in this whole theory and counter post thing.  Mat, Rand, and Perrin do not consider themselves as subjects to the Queen of Andor.  Or for that matter even as Andorans except to give a vague reference to where they live in the world.  They never say they are Andorians when ask they say they are from the Two Rivers not Andor.  If anything Mat would be subject to Rand now and no other authority and because Mat is Rand's subject so is all of the Band.  They gave up most of their loyalties to their countries when they stayed with Mat and started calling themselves the band.  Seeings how Rand is setting himself up as the king of the world I don't really think that his greatest general and close friend is going to be at the beck and call of Elayne or Egwene.


created: 2003-02-02 11:50:02
subject: <b>Elayne's dilema</b>
body:
I know this is a long time after the last posting but...to get back to whether Elayne would accept the help of the The Band of The Red Hand. Several posters have said &quot;no&quot; she wouldn't, either because they're a foreign army or they're mercenaries. I would like to point out that when Mat and Elayne were in Ebou Dar, several times she referred to Mat as her &quot;subject&quot;, ie. &quot;A most observant subject&quot;. And since the Band is MAT'S army, (not Talmanes') I think she most assuredly would accept the help of the Band. Just my nickles worth.


created: 2003-05-12 06:25:00
subject: <b>Maybe not help.</b>
body:
In thinking about Mat bein the king reborn, it's possible that the severed hand is still refering to the Band, but i don't think to help her. this probably means something along the lines of Elayne attempting to squash the Two Rivers rebellion and Mat's Band kicking some ass. Plus i think Mat's got alot of battles to get &quot;in the middle&quot; of. Shiado, Seanchan, Whitecloaks, possibly others. i think Mat will probably be fighting straight till Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-01 15:50:24
body: <p align="right"><font size="-1">Blackboard Post: 17855</font></p>None
subject:
<b>I agree with everything cept the 4 armies bit<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>


created: 2002-08-01 09:38:50
subject: <b>I'm not forking out for a bloody e-book.</b>
body:
Well, I was reading and then I saw the reference to Glimmers so I completely ignored the rest of it (I haven't read Glimmers).<br /><br />I'm assuming this is about Faile being the heir to the Saldaean throne (2nd in line) and that Perrin doesn't know about it yet.<br /><br />Quote (LoC, I believe) goes something along the lines of:<br /><br />Perrin trying to change the subject wondered what Davram Bashere had being talking about<br />&quot;Faile, what is a broken crown&quot;<br />She smelt upset and said nothing.<br /><br />So you are saying that Faile will be Queen (good possibility - Min saw a broken crown around Perrin in tEotW). All this theory needs to be definite is confirmation that the broken crown is the crown of Saldaea<br /><br />If thats the case I'd vote Yes. I'll have another look at this when I've read Glimmers.


created: 2002-08-01 10:37:37
subject: <b>good stuff</b>
body:
I just thought that this was fairly common knowledge? I did forget about min's viewing in tEotW, but it seems to tie it up nicely now...But since it pretty cleary states in the books that Faile is the heir to the throne, if second in line, that this was a bit of a no brainer? It's good for somebody to stick it all together, however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />A hard earned thirst needs a big cold spam,<br />and the best cold spam is ASI.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 12:22:05
subject: <b>not a no-brainer.....</b>
body:
if you haven't read Glimmers, which supplies the last piece of the puzzle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 14:27:41
subject: <b>Strong Evidence, Good Citations</b>
body:
It gets my vote for Agree<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 15:37:54
subject: <b>king</b>
body:
if this theory pays off Perrin will be the knig of Saldaea. Remember Nyneaves trip through the accepted te'angreal. Lan said something a bout here in the borderlands when a monarch marries his/her spouse becomes knig queen.<br />anyway good call<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 18:02:43
subject: <b>I agree wholeheartedly</b>
body:
Did anyone lese catch Jordan trying to send us a Red Herring by callin a chapter in CoS &quot;A Broken Crown&quot; (when Rand takes Covalere's crown by breaking and reforging it while Perrin is present)? Sneaky sneaky sneaky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Also, with Perrin as the King of Manetheren AND Saldea, it will create an almost cross continental line to stand aghainst the Seanchan's advance after TG (as Foretold by Nicola in LoC). That also fits with him having a dream with the memories of using the axe in countlkess battles. It's the dream where Lanfear comes to tempt him with power and he refuses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-01 21:26:48
subject: <b>What a choice....</b>
body:
Deciding between killing off Faile....<br /><br /> and supporting a neat bit of logic, backed up with actual quotes.<br /><br />It is a tossup, isn't it???<br /><br />Elder Haman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Still out looking for Loial (hint hint RJ) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-01 22:42:35
subject: <b>Faile vs Elayne</b>
body:
Why do so many people disagree with this theory? It is so obvious it hardly even counts as theory... Faile and Elayne and going to have a big fight over whether to let Perrin have the Two Rivers though (obviously he has no say), unless perhaps Perrin is able to help Elayne win back Andor, then she could 'bestow' it on Perrin as a reward so it doesn't look like she is allowing a rebellion.


created: 2002-08-02 03:12:33
subject: <b>Okay.....</b>
body:
- Yes, I know it was fairly obvious, but no-one had written a theory and the Glimmers quote strung it all together. Before that there were other theories like that the Broken Crown was the crown of Basharande (Bashere sounding similar.) <br />- Hadn't thought about this meaning Faile not dying. Yes!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />- Just because Perrin is married to the Queen of Saldaea does NOT mean he is automatically called the King. The normal practice in every RL monarchy I know is for the wife of the King to be called the Queen, and the husband of the Queen Regnant (e.g. Elayne) is the Prince Consort. If Rand marries Elayne, that makes him the Prince Consort of Andor, but her the Queen of Illian. (Of course, Illianer Kings are elected...well...chosen... so their wives may not be titled.) I would imagine that in the equal-opportunity Randland the Queen of Saldaea's husband would be the King. Boy, is Perrin gonna freak when he hears that. Being a lord is bad enough. <br />-As for the whole &quot;Lord of the Two Rivers&quot; bit, I imagine that marrying the monarch of another country does not disqualify a noble from owning lands in another, in fact this would almost be necessary given that monarchs often marry nobles from other countries to cement alliances. So Perrin can just be Lord of the Two Rivers from Saldaea. Elayne shouldn't have any problems with quietly officializing that when she realizes he doesn't want to raise Manetheren again, Perrin shouldn't have any problem with her as his technical liege lady - it's not like they'll have to address the situation much - and it ensures stronger ties between Andor and the Borderlands. As well as with the Dragon Reborn. Actually it works all round, politically speaking. <br />- And I agree, the Broken Crown bit in ACoS was <i>nasty</i>. Almost as bad as having the servant woman run in yelling Dobraine's head had been cut off, making everyone think of the DF noble killed by Cyndane, not to mention the <i>gholam</i>. Is it just me, or does RJ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> like playing mind-games with us?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 13:43:32
subject: <b>So many people disagreed because...</b>
body:
Some loser voted 'disagree' over 200 times yesterday to EVERY SINGLE THEORY that has been posted this week. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I wish I had so much free time...grrr.... anyway, this is a great theory, Ruriha, but you already knew that, didn't you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 00:33:46
subject: <b>Well, let me be the only one...</b>
body:
to disagree.  I see that quote in Glimmers differently.  I don't think the broken crown is Saldea's.  If it were, it would be Tenobia's... Bashere wouldn't have the right to present it to anyone.  Tenobia may die childless, making Bashere the King, but I think he has a claim to some other land.  I just don't see Tenobia being cool with Bashere's wife having her crown.


created: 2002-08-04 19:10:40
subject: <b>The Broken Crown? Whats Broken about it?</b>
body:
Do U think its also the crown to another country? or a large part of Saldea thats no longer under their control?<br /><br />Could it be something to do with Manatheren


created: 2002-08-07 11:32:13
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
Maybe the reason that Bashere presented Tenobia with the Broken Crown is because he gave up the rights to be king?<br /><br />Although I don't see his wife allowing that....but it's a possibility<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Come against me, if you dare! I am the storm! <br />Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn! <br />-Rand al'Thor</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-07 16:29:22
subject: <b>Ancient history</b>
body:
Wasn't there a reference somewhere in the books or the guide that hinted to Bashere's branch of the family losing or renouncing the Crown of Saldaea or Basharande long ago and Tenobia's branch taking over?<br /><br />That could be why the heir of one branch has to present the Broken Crown to the heir of the ruling branch.  That is, it's simply a coronation ritual of some sort between two close noble Houses.<br /><br />Presumably, the Crown would revert to the Bashere's branch if the ruling branch produces no heir, explaining the various quotes in the theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-07 21:54:52
subject: <b>Bashere' s a City</b>
body:
The reason the Broken Crown was presumed to be the destroyed crown of Basharande was because Davram is Lord of Tyr, Sidona and Bashere. Bit strange Bashere being a city or town. As well as Perrin asking Faile what the Broken Crown was and she making a vexed noise, smelling upset and changing the subject. (This after telling Perrin in TSR that her cousin was a queen).<br /><br />But I think the reason she didn't tell him, and Davram's wrath, maybe because of Perrin may be now 4th in line to the throne. Remember this conversation in TSR -<br />Perrin &quot;I already have a wife&quot;<br />Verin &quot;Yes you do. But you don't know what marrying Zarine Bashere means do you? When are you going to give this up for the hammer?&quot;<br /><br />What does Verin know that Perrin doesn't?<br /><br />This added to the &quot;If you fall. I will take up your sword&quot; mentality of the Saldaeans, could mean that Perrin if Faile dies may take over the responsibilities of his dead spouse. This maybe why Davram referred to the Broken Crown as if Perrin was a high society climber.<br /><br />And why didn't Min see a Broken Crown in Faile's future not Perrin's?<br /><br />The interesting thing is that Davram is next in line but Faile or Perrin will wear the Broken Crown!<br /><br />Excuse me, I think I'll get two goblets and a bottle of wine, just before you kill that guy coming to the wine pantry.<br /><br />


created: 2002-08-07 22:01:38
subject: <b>Davram's baton</b>
body:
I forgot. Davram carries a baton of the Marshall-General of Saldaea and suprise suprise it has a wolfhead on it.<br /><br />What an amazing coincidence!!!! (sarcasm sarcasm)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-08 03:19:18
subject: <b>The crown of Saldaea</b>
body:
I believe it's Saldaea's crown , not Bashere's or anything. Bashere says he taught Tenobia to ride, watched her grow up, presented the Broken Crown to her when she took the throne. So I read the passage like this. Tenobia was orphaned when she was young. Bashere was her regent, or whatever, because he was the Marshal-General and also the next in line. When she came of age, Bashere presented Tenobia with the crown of Saldaea, because he was regent or whatsit for her, and thus the authority-figure-whatever. No Archbishop to do the crowning, remember? <br />I noticed the wolfhead thing, having just read the scene where Bashere comes in. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Perrin probably gets it; after all, Ethenielle's husband was her general-person until Merean murdered him, so Perrin can be Faile's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-08 13:52:36
subject: <b>Male Prominence</b>
body:
My guess is, there is male prominence in Saldaea in the same way there is female prominence in Andor, regarding who rules.<br /><br />I think this because of both the way Faile and Faile's mother willingly take a backseat to their husbands, and indeed regard it as duty, so long as their husbands are worthy <br /><br />Tenobia, as the only child of the reigning family, was of course the Queen.  However, if there had been a brother, there likely would've been a king.  So if Tenobia dies -- and we've pretty much established that's going to happen -- then Davram gets it, as likely closest male relative (plus the whole house thing).<br /><br />But of course, he'll either die or pass it on in Faile's favor...except if there's male prominance, the Crown would go to Perrin, since Faile now has a husband to take the lead. <br /><br />This'll get even MORE interesting, if/when Perrin takes the throne of Saldaea.  He is essentially the Lord of a substantial portion of Andor's northwestern region.  Elayne will never willingly just 'give up' a part of her kingdom, just for kicks.  Maybe...MAYBE...some of it will be ceded to the new Saldaea in return for service or other trade.  Post-TG (assuming the good guys win), an Andor-expanded Saldaea (and possibly Cairhien) alliance would be a valuable counter to whatever alliances happen in the south.<br />


created: 2002-08-09 04:49:57
subject: <b>Male Prominence?</b>
body:
I don't think Vashti can be right about a male prominence in Saldaea because then Faile wouldn't be second in line for the crown.  The reason Faile gave for running off to become a Hunter for the Horn was that her father had taken her YOUNGER BROTHER with him into the Blight.  If Faile has brothers then they would surely inherit the crown before her husband does if these things go to a female only due to the lack of a male heir.


created: 2002-08-09 05:01:31
subject: <b>Basharande</b>
body:
The title of the old contry during Hawkwings time is too close to Bashere to be chance.  I think the broken crown is a referance to the time when Faile's bloodline rules this country.  If Manetheren is comming back, what to say that this isn't?


created: 2002-08-09 20:53:32
subject:
<b>Inheritance stuff    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Tenobia's mother was a Bashere. So why is Davram the next in line. Why not one of her fathers siblings. Either he didn't have any or the Crown was passed down the Bashere line.<br /><br />Tenobia's mother must be older than Davram and inherited the crown - which is confirmed by Faile being the eldest of Davram's children. Tenobia must not have any siblings either.<br /><br />It looks like the Broken Crown is most likely confirmation that Faile will live. Oh what a soft and fluffy series this is. <br /><br />No suRprises <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />   or suspense in this fantasy series. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-14 23:58:59
subject: <b>Not one, but two deaths.</b>
body:
If your theory is true then we are in for not just one, but two deaths. First Tenobia needs to die, to pass the crown on to Davram, and then he needs to die, in order for Faile to recieve the broken crown. Is Davram going to be a casualty of the Last Battle? or is this going to happen sooner? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-15 23:51:14
subject: <b>Am I the only one that doesn't agree with this?</b>
body:
Ok, I love Faile as much as the next guy doesn't, but doesn't anyone see a kink in this? Davram gave Tenobia the Broken Crown upon her arrival to the thrown yes? Well if this is the crown of Saldea, why would Davram be the one to give it to her? Wouldn't someone else be there to grant her the crown? Some like secretary guy or something?<br />This makes me think that it has something to do with the family. If not, Davram wouldn't have been the one to hand her the crown.<br />Another thing, why would Faile smell so deathly afraid of whatever it was that the Broken Crown means?<br />The last thing I will point out is this: Has Robert Jordan ever made something so plain out clear before? I don't think so.. The only time that anything has been so clear that stevie wonder could see it coming was when moiraine died, and that he solved in one book. He likes to keep the suspense up.. you know, keep the fans wondering so that they'll buy everything that comes out, that sort of thing. Seems to be working well enough for him now..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Shameless Chatroom Flirt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Warderette to Dodem <br />Aes Sedai to Jarrod<br />Alexia is my Cowgirl on shining mower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 04:23:52
subject: <b>Manetheren</b>
body:
Perrin is NOT the King of Manetheren (KoM). Plain and simple. Stop saying he is. My explanation involves some questions:<br />Does Perrin know Old Tongue?<br />No. If he was the KoM resurrected, maybe he would...maybe like MAT does. <br />Did Min see a big freaking RED EAGLE around Perrin??<br />No. The symbol of Manetheren was seen around MAT. <br /><br />Perrin leads farmers. Mat leads the Band of the Red Hand. <br /><br />In EotW, someone (Moiraine?..i cant remember) suggests that Mat has the soul of Aemon or something to that effect.<br />Nobody ever says Perrin is KoM.<br /><br />Perrin leads the Two Rivers and flies the banner of Manetheren. Why is Mat connected so strongly to it? They can't both be King. Whoever saw RJ make something as clear-cut as &quot;Perrin is leading them now, so obviously he will become King later&quot;? Nothing is like that in WoT. <br /><br />Read my words and believe.<br /><br />PS. This came out way more harsh than i wanted it to, but its got my message across mostly ok...so dont take any offense to it, i'm too tired to re-write it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Maverick<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Scourge of the Skies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Seducer of the Women <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 11:58:07
subject: <b>Just For the Record</b>
body:
I decided to see how long it would take to vote 200 times for a particular post.  It took me under 4 minutes to vote yes to this one 200 times. ( I don't normally taint votes, but I thought since one man did it over 200 times to the negative on this, I would see what it took to do it and also try to cancel him out)


created: 2002-09-16 03:44:07
subject: <b>My Review: Positive</b>
body:
Dammit! I can't get Glimmers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I have the money, but I don't have the capabilities to do it. But I read the entire theory anyway. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I like the Regent idea. And what's this about people dying? What if Tenobia fell head over heels in love with that guy in the prologue of PoD, and decides to pass her crown on so she can marry him? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Not bloody likely, eh?<br /><br />Hm...what else. Oh. Just becaue Mat *may* be Aemon reborn doesn't mean he'll be the king of Manatheren. And since Perrin's doing such a good job of getting the land in shape and keeping it that way, I don't see what right Mat has to come in and take it from him.<br /><br />Can you tell I'm not particularly fond of Mat anymore? I think it was somewhere around the time that I finally compiled a list of how many women he's been 'seen' with so far that my views on him changed....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-27 19:48:24
subject: <b>Davram Kneels To Perrin.</b>
body:
I don't see Bashere dying after he inherits from Tenobia, I see him swearing fealthy to Perrin.<br /><br />Then the Throne and the Broken Crown would be Perrin's without anybodies death except the Current Queen.<br /><br />Oh I've always assumed that the Broken Crown was the Crown to some bigger kingdom that Failes Line once ruled, but has become the defacto crown of Saldaea.  This would explain why Faile got upset about it when Perrin asked about it and why the Saldaea's Monarch wears it.


created: 2002-11-22 02:12:38
subject: <b>For what it's worth</b>
body:
Leane predicted jokingly that the blacksmith would wear a crown (and speak in high chant) in the Great Hunt


created: 2003-02-09 01:18:38
subject: <b>King Perrin, Queen Faile, Queen Elayne, and other thoughts</b>
body:
This is such a good conversation that I have to post my two cents worth.  Normally, I don't post theories, or even add any of the comments. I just read them.<br /><br />First of all, too all of you who have a problem with Perrin being an Andoran lord (Lord of the Two Rivers) owing feality to Elayne yet at the same time being the King of Saldea, well, there is very reall example.  Does anyone remember the Hundred Years War between England and France?  When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, at the time, he was the Duke of Normandy and owed fealty to the French king.  After the Battle of Hastings, if I remember my history correctly (someone from Great Britain is obviously going to correct me), William was proclaimed the King of England.  <br /><br />Several centuries later, through marriage and war, the English kings became lords and dukes over very large chunk of France, but they themselves weren't kings.  The English king was a vassal of the French king.  When the French king and his heirs died, the English king had the best claim to the French throne.  However, French noblemen did not want a strong king, so they supported a Frenchman with a weaker claim.  To make matters worse, the French themselves could not agree as to who should be king, and the English had their problems back home.  It took over a hundred years with intermittant fighting to straighten out the mess.<br /><br />Enough of the history lesson.  First of all, once Davram Bashere tried to figure out Perrin's intentions concernign the Broken Crown it was ovious to me that Davram (and Faile) were extremely important people in Saldaea.  I'm not talking about Davram being Marshal-Lord General, even though that's a very important position, either.  I kind of figured that Davram was either 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, dependent if Tenobia has any children, to being inline to the Broken Crown.  It wasn't untill we found out about Tenobia that I knew exactly where Davram was.  Too me this is all old news.  The only question is what does the Broken Crown actually represent.  Is it the crown to Saldea or some other &quot;lost&quot; kingdom that will raised like Manetheren, and what does that mean today?  How did it get broken in the first place?  Will Perrin remain as Lord of the Two Rivers, or will Elayne try to take his head off for starting a rebellion?<br /><br />Even though it is old news, I would have to say that Ruriha did a great job in presenting the facts.  Keep up the good work!


created: 2003-04-10 14:12:11
subject: <b>Broken Crown</b>
body:
You know, I am not going to dig into this too much but I dont think that the crown is Tenobia's Queenship.. Rather it represents some responsibility/ideal or something from Hawkwings day. I dont know why, but for some reason my mind keeps wandering back to Padan Fain when he was in Flame, he said he had the seal and horn passed down in his family. This may not have been something completely made up. Perhaps some families have such relics passed down that represent something. Like the broken crown!


created: 2004-03-24 16:05:26
subject: <b>Remember Manetheren</b>
body:
Remember that Manetheren was Ghealdan north to and including Saldea.<br /><br />Perrin is already lord of Ghealdan north to the two rivers.<br /><br />With his marriage to Faile he is in position to be lord of all of old Manetheren.<br /><br />And, if there's a broken crown in Saldea, who's to say it's not the crown of Manetheren.<br /><br />And who's to say there are not legends such as:<br />&quot;Manetheren will play an important role in defeating the DO at Tarmon Gaidon.&quot; Might have been why Ba'Alzamon made such a point of destroying it.<br /><br />&quot;Manetheren will not be again until a King comes and remakes land and crown with his own hands.&quot;  Perrin is just about finished with the first, and all trained to do the second.


created: 2004-06-18 18:21:00
subject: <b>look at my post on a broken crown</b>
body:
The broken crown refers to manetheren or Malkeri.<br />Sladea bordered manetheren an malkeri.<br />Saldea and manetheren were strong allies. <br />after manetheren was destroyed, the broken crown was sent to Sladea.<br />the crown is given to the king/queen gets the crown for safe keeping.<br />broken crown became a symbol of office in saldea.<br />mostly guess work but its what i think<br />Im Done.


created: 2005-01-15 22:11:16
subject: <b>Two things</b>
body:
First of all, Bashere presented the Broken Crown to Tenobia in a ceremonial event, like how Frodo, Gandalf and Faramir present the crown of Gondor to Aragorn in LotR. None of them ever wore it. It might be because Davram was Marshal-General, or maybe he was her Regent, but either way, it's plain ceremony.<br /><br />The other thing, RJ has made things much clearer than this is many occasions. For example, take a guess at who is gonna be King of Tear?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-21 21:40:03
subject: <b>If you haven't read KOD do not read</b>
body:
In Knife of Dreams page 156 (Hardback) Perrin is introduced to the Seanchan Banner-General Tylee Khirgan and Captain Bakayar Mishima.  B-G Tylee is relieved that Perrin wasn't introduced as the &quot;Wolf-King&quot; because according to the Prophecies of the Dragon, Tarmon Gai'don would be upon them.  She then recites:<br /> &quot;When the Wolf-King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.&quot;<br /><br />Okay, the Wolf-king can be no other than Perrin. (Under the circumstances the only other wolfbrother we know of is Elyas and that just doesn't make sense.)  Taking this into consideration, at some point in book 12 Perrin will have to become a king. He's already obtained the wolf part and the hammer. Now, whether it is Saldea or Manatheren (sp?) I haven't decided, but since he is married to Faile and she is second in line to the Saldean throne it is highly likely that it will be Saldea.  Also given the fact that Min sees a broken crown around Perrin and Tenobia has a &quot;broken crown&quot; given to her the coinincidence is palpable and points even more toward Saldea. Whether this involves Tenobia dying or stepping down we won't find out until later because her armies are only vaguely mentioned once as &quot;being to the north&quot; by Elayne.  <br /><br />There is however another idea that no one has thought of.  The crown of Malkier has been broken. This has been stated a thousand times over since the beginning. In &quot;The Golden Crane&quot; chapter of KOD, Nynaeve takes Lan to Saldea when he asks to go to the borderlands. She then finds some of his surviving kin and tells them that the golden crane is flying once more and calls for their aid.<br /><br />It is possible that the &quot;broken crown&quot; given to Tenobia wasn't the crown of Saldea at all but the crown of Malkier, and has been an heirloom in the Saldean royal family for protection (similar to the Sword-That-Was-Broken is held by the Elves in the &quot;Lord of the Rings&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> until such time as Lan decides to stop sulking and restore his own kingdom.  The link between Saldea, Perrin, and a broken crown may be that Perrin will help Lan with the retaking of Malkier and the crown will no longer be broken. <br /><br /> The prophecy of Perrin the &quot;wolf-king carrying the hammer&quot; might be that he will have to become king first and then he will realize what the significance of the broken crown is and reforge it with his hammer, being a blacksmith and all. (also close to tLoTR's sword reforging)The crowning of Lan and the rise of Malkier would be a direct blow to the DO wouldn't you say?<br /><br />The broken crown belonging to Lan and Malkier would also explain why this is a point of pain for those who know about it.  If I remember correctly, Malkier was highly respected by all the borderland countries.  In tEoTW Algemar says that if the Golden Crane would fly once more then everyone would follow. (paraphrasing) <br /><br />Results:  The Golden Crane is taking off for flight; Perrin is close to being king of Saldea via his wife; Saldea may have the Malkier Crown in its possession awaiting the return of the king (no pun intended); and the Last Battle is getting extremely closer.<br /><br />as written by Egwene19<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;Mother, mother ocean, I have heard you call,<br />Wanted to sail upon your waters since I was three feet tall...Yes, I am a pirate two hundred years too late. The cannons don't thunder there's nothin' to plunder...&quot; <br />   -J. Buffet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 11:32:07
subject: <b>Sisters with the Borderlanders</b>
body:
The Sisters with the Borderlanders are almost certainly the 'third faction.'  Merille informs Elayne that a lot of sisters are staying out of the conflict until one side wins.  The fact that they avoided Merille and Elayne during their separate visits points to hiding themselves.  Otherwise, fellow rebels would seek them out and the Tower faction sisters would confront both and try to interfere, or even try to kidnap Elayne.<br />Good theory.  As a corrolary, do you think their armies will be involved at all with the situation at Tar Valon?  They are north of Andor and if memory serves, almost as close to the Tower as to Caemlyn.<br /><br />Woody


created: 2002-08-02 11:57:13
subject: <b>Your right about Lan</b>
body:
In New Spring, it was mentioned that if Lan was to ressurect the flag of Malkier, most boarderlanders would follow. It would also be nice to see him be able to re-claim his throne. OTOH, he's got a wife now, and other duties which might not allow him to reclaim his throne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 12:29:27
subject: <b>Perhaps Something Else</b>
body:
I think the Borderlanders are willing to follow Rand, even from what we have seen; they are just upset that he has paid them no attention yet.  This isn't in a petulant way.  From their perspective, they are the spearpoint of the War against the Shadow, and they have some solid reason to believe that.  I simply believe they want an accounting for Rand's inattention so far and to know their place in the upcoming battles.  <br /><br />From my end, I feel Rand has never really doubted the aid of the Borderlanders.  After all, I believe it was Tenobia who sent him the first assurance of cooperation on her free will? Or was that one of the A-countries? (Amadicia, Altara, etc.)  It's the screwed up Heartlanders and Southerners that need to be straightened out...and then those pesky Seanchan.


created: 2002-08-02 13:36:20
subject: <b>re: Vashti</b>
body:
teh Queen that sent Rand assurance was the queen of ghealdan sp?.  Aviendha was there in caemlyn and Rand commented on it being nice to hear from someone simple in their was or some such.


created: 2002-08-02 15:52:26
subject: <b>Hmmmm.....</b>
body:
While I agree that Lan will probably lead those armies, I think it'll be his wife, Nynaeave, who raises the banner or convinces Lan to raise the banner. Lan has said countless times that he doesn't want to raise the Golden Crane of Malkier. So I'm thinking it'd probably be Nynaeave, who is an Aes Sedai and as you said, Aes Sedai are respected in the Borderlands. With an Aes Sedai raising the banner and Lan taking charge of the armies, the Borderlander army will unite completely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-03 16:57:23
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I agree that the Borderlanders will follow Rand, cos its hard to imagine nations that have spent thousands of years fighting the shadow opposing the Dragon Reborn. My only questions, then, are why do they fear that Rand will attack them (they make a comment along the lines of &quot;either Rand or the Aes Sedai may yet put our heads on pikes&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, and why have they brought their armies, if they just want to offer Rand support? I think it'll be a little more complex than them just going over to follow Bashere. <br />    Seia Cair<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 02:11:49
subject: <b>What will happen.</b>
body:
Is at the end of CoT, after the borderland army has finally got to speak with Rand, the trollocs will surge from the border and nearly wipe out the Borderlands.  Only the southermost will survive.  Then Lan will raise his banner because he doesn't want to see any more nations fall the the blight.  Then the borderland army south will feel remorse, and follow Rand's lead to take on the DO.  Since Tenobia would want to tell Rand how to fight.


created: 2002-08-04 23:36:23
subject: <b>Personally,</b>
body:
I'd love to see what you outlined happen. All the Borderlanders united under Rand, fighting where and what they should. RJ has said to comments about where are all the trollocs that they're coming, so I expect the beginnings of the trolloc invasions to appear in CoT.<br /><br />But, Lan raising the banner and everyone following, now that would be something I'd like to read.<br /><br />Godd theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 17:00:03
subject: <b>Agree with Rongar</b>
body:
I've felt this is why they've come south since I read PoD.  It gets most of the best soldiers (at fighting Trollocs, anyway)out of the initial onslaught, and Tenobia's comment about &quot;anything short of the Trolloc Wars coming again&quot; was asking for it, like saying &quot;I'll be right back,&quot; in a horror movie.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 20:13:27
subject: <b>Lan may or may not raise the Banner of Malkier</b>
body:
While it would be great if Lan did raise tha banner of Malkier and lead the borderlanders, I have a feeling he wouldnt raise it from his own personal choice. I mean, he has often said to anyone who asks that Malkier is dead and will not come back again. Anyway, does he even care about anyone or anything other than Nyneave anymore? I agree with The Dragon Lews TheRIN that if anyone were to incite the raising of the Malkier Banner, it would have to be Nyneave. The rest of the theory sounds great though.


created: 2002-08-26 02:04:41
subject: <b>good line of thought</b>
body:
Correct me if I am wrong but most of the borderlanders still think of the glory days of manetheren and as we all can see Perrin is going to be resurecting that country.  He will also be king of Saldea as we can see from Min's viewing.  So I agree that the Borderland army will follow Rand but I think it will be Perrin the follow behind.  As proof of this I offer up my supposition of the differences in the Taveren.  Rand makes different events happen more frequently and ppl speak their mind more freely in front of him.  Mat is lucky and his Tarereness gets him out of jams and saves his bacon when he should die.  Where Perrin just convinces everyone to do what he wants.  How many times now have we seen Perrin suggest something and almost immediatly the person following his advice.  So to conclude I don't believe Lan will raise the Malkier flag until after Perrin is king of Manetheren and leader of the Borderland Alliance.


created: 2003-05-20 00:57:55
subject: <b>Does anyone else think that all the obvious Aragorn parallels are a red herring?</b>
body:
I mean the first couple of books are like an entirely different series.  Everything we &quot;knew&quot; from those books has been messed with somehow, and there was a lot more mysterious, otherworldly-type stuff [how would you describe the functions of the Horn of Valere in terms of the One Power?  Or Shadar Logoth, which was dealt with far more in the earlier books?]. So much of what the earlier books stated was or wasn't possible has been disproved or undone, and so many great mysteries or wonders brought down to earth.  The origin of the Aiel has been exposed, and instead of a savage mysterious people in a foreign land, they are exposed as one more odd culture, just as screwed up and human as everyone else.  The Seanchan have even shown the humanity under the ugly helmets, and the sul'dam turn out to be nowhere near as bad as Renna, the Semirhage wannabe.  Even the Black Ajah group, exciting so much dread in the Dragon Reborn, are little more than ordinary Darkfriends.  Sure they're plotting against Elayne, and by extension, maybe Rand, but we know as soon as one of the major characters finds them out, they're as good as dead.  Callandor has been drawn and used in battle - as a back-up weapon by a flunky!  The Tinkers' quest is a lie, and the Whitecloaks have one last hurrah left.  Murandy, mock by Aes Sedai in book 2, is on its way to becoming one of the more unified countries, in better shape than many others.  The theme of change is reinterated over and over again, and I think the key to the future does not lie in the past with a dead nation, and a &quot;king&quot; who can't bear to give tough orders [he said in New Spring, that that was why he won't lead men-the responsibility of deciding who lives and who dies is too much].  From what we've seen, the Golden Crane would not make the rulers follow Lan, merely undercut their authority by drawing followers from their armies.  Also, Lan was a newborn infant when Malkier fell, and he's in his late forties.  How many Malkieri are left in fighting condition?  Rand will have to get the Borderlanders some other way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 17:25:57
subject: <b>Malkier with Lan King will not emerge until...</b>
body:
The Last Battle, and the DO`s forces defeated.  At that point, the Blight will have receded sufficiently for this to happen.<br /><br />This may take many years after the LB to root out the last DF`s and Shadowspawn.  At that point, the Blight and points north will be completely restored to normality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-13 10:19:41
subject: <b>As for Lan's Reluctance</b>
body:
As far as Lan not wanting to raise the battle, i think we should pay significant attention to his marriage vows to nyneave.  I think these are very intentionall placed by RJ so that when he balks at the idea of leading the armies, Nyneave will publicly order him to raise the banner and do what he was born to do, leaving him no choice but to obey.  <br /><br />The plant and payoff is right there for the using, and just subtle enough to not be blatantly approaching.


created: 2009-01-19 02:50:02
subject: <b>Rand might have them executed</b>
body:
The borderlanders considered it possible because in their soldier traditions they deserted their posts to come south. And desertion gets the death penalty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 23:42:05
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Makes good sense to me, and we all know that Graendal is a sneaky little gal. She did kill Asmo after all. She is so sneaky that some of you still don't believe that last bit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />I vote aye<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 00:55:48
subject: <b>too convenient...</b>
body:
It's logical thinking...<br />but to think that none of the other Forsaken wouldn't love to see another one bite the dust is a bit too much for me to believe.<br /><br />In fact, Sammael would be more of threat to the other Forsaken who don't have any real idea of what he's up to.<br /><br />Graendal also seems the least likely to have an agent in Caemelyn... not to say that she doesn't... but her overall lack of focus in and around caemelyn makes me doubt that she has such a useful tool in taim...<br /><br />but what do i know...


created: 2002-08-06 01:35:00
subject: <b>Taim - Yes, Graendal - No</b>
body:
Taim could have gated in undetected if he has been allowed to use the True Power (maybe), his timing is too convenient. He comes in just when the Gray Man gets there and only kills him after he's sure that Rand has seen the Gray Man.<br /><br />As fas as Graendal goes, however, that is all conjecture. No proof whatsoever. Just because she wants him dead doesn't mean that the Gray Man was supplied by her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Grand Master of the Hollywood Knights <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> High Priest of the Church of the Poisoned Mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 03:24:23
subject: <b>Who knows?</b>
body:
ever heard of chance? maybe taim actually was in the right place at the right time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> it would have been good if rand had of been able to catch the grey man and study it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 03:31:48
subject: <b>Ervs, I don't understand...</b>
body:
Your saying it would have been good for Rand to study it, but yet Taim was in the right place at the right time to kill it? Your statement is so vague, what are you saying? Are you in support of the theory or no? Are you in support of Taim killing it in the nick of time, or are you saying that it is too bad that Rand couldn't question it? Either way, I think it is the same thing....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 11:11:49
subject: <b>Taim...True Power?...I think not!</b>
body:
Taim would have to be of Forsaken level andto have been brought to SG in order for him to be able to draw on the TP. I think the theory is excellent and makes much more sense for Taim to have been in wait as opposed to arriving on time. He couldn't take the chance of Traveling directly into the room and the hall would be heavily guarded against entry while Rand is in chambers (simply to provide announcements if nothing else).<br />Rand is suspicious of Taim, but is he suspicious enough yet?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />CG<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Beware...the eye sees all!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-06 12:02:38
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
So, you are saying Graendal was in Cam. the same time Taim shows up and kills Asmodean?  Then has Taim kill the Gray Man to set up Sammael.  I have to vote yes.  Graendal was the only logical choice left to kill Asmo. for me.  And this kind of scheming fits.


created: 2002-08-06 13:12:29
subject: <b>Graendal ROCKS!!</b>
body:
as the books have said, those who dismiss Graendal are often sorry. <br /><br />the other reason this set up could be possible is that we have a repeat of that scheme with Elyane and her new Guard Captian from Winter's Heart.  scenario follows. she is being attacked after being doused with non-channeling tea. some guy rescues her and bingo bango he is in command of her personal guard. a few chapters later he is reporting to a black sister that he has succeded in the plan to kill her supposed attackers and gain his new position.<br /><br />granted rand does not trust Taim any more than he did but it set him on the path Graendal wanted if this theory is accurate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-07 10:03:10
subject: <b>You missed something</b>
body:
If Graendal set all of this up, Graendal could have made the gateway: Rand detects females channelling, but not Saidar and Saidar-gates.  Taim could easily have arrived after Rand.  The same is true for any female gater, or even those gate-cubes that the Shaido Aiel got.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-07 13:25:41
subject: <b>question for your.master</b>
body:
I got the impression that the gateway boxes were nothing and that it was the forsaken creating the gates, doesn't he drop the sack and think about how they were useless stone or something like that?


created: 2002-08-07 15:32:19
subject: <b>You are correct, Mr.Froggy 240</b>
body:
Sammael even calls them fool boxes in the Old Tongue to show his contempt for the Shaido.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-07 22:32:54
subject: <b>Good catch...</b>
body:
When I first started reading this theory, I didn't think there was much basis for it, but as a proponent of the Graendal-killed-Asmodean theory, I think this makes good sense. Graendal, Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin were all working together draw Rand into attacking Sammael at the end of Fires of Heaven. Their plan was to entice Rand into going after Sammael, but instead of facing him one-on-one, all four Forsaken would be there to ambush Rand (this is all taken from Moghedien's confession to Nynaeve in tel'aran'rhiod at the end of Fires of Heaven, Ch. 54, &quot;To Caemlyn,&quot; pg 658 hardback, in which she outlines this plot, although she was unsure as to Lanfear's true involvement). This was, of course, before the Dark One's commandment to Demandred to &quot;LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE&quot; in the Prologue of Lord of Chaos.<br /><br />Now, they had this big plan, but look what came of it: Lanfear and Rahvin both got killed before the end of the book (Lanfear has come back, of course, but they didn't know that). Now Sammael comes to Graendal and tells her that he has formed a truce with Rand. Suddenly, Graendal is standing alone as the only one left of her alliance, and SHE doesn't have a truce of any sorts with Rand, so it's a good bet (from her point of view) that she's next on his list. An uncomfortable position for Graendal, who prides herself on staying in the background almost as much as Moghedien herself. It makes sense for her to try to break the supposed truce between Sammael and Rand any way she can.<br /><br />My only original objection to this theory was that Taim is supposedly working for Demandred, not Graendal, but this can be easily explained because Graendal was also working with Demandred and Mesanna, and could easily have asked for Demandred's help in creating a little chaos while still knocking Sammael off his high horse. <br /><br />To me, this answers motive and opportunity. I think that Demandred actually sent Taim and the Gray Man, but I can definitely see Graendal having something to do with it. Good job.


created: 2002-08-08 13:41:36
subject: <b>Ok, well here is another take on it then...</b>
body:
We know Rand and Taim are teaching each other and have been since the beginning of LOC. Rand knows how to make wards and so would have taught Taim as well. Since Rand is rarely in Caemlyn wouldn't he want Taim to know when he is there so they could practice?<br /><br />I don't have time to write a compete explanation but I think Taim has (with Rand's permission) wards to let him know when Rand is there and so Taim brought the GM in order to get in with Rand; test Rand's ability; or even more devious, get Rand to attack Sammael.<br /><br />We know from CoT how Graendal has been working and what she has been doing. I don't think the GM was hers. It might have been Dem's through Taim or even Sammael's.<br /><br />I'm willing to offer a full explanation if any of you care to read it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-08 14:49:41
subject: <b>graendal killed asmo?</b>
body:
about a year ago i saw an interview with RJ that went something like this...<br /><br />Questioner... Why are people still speculating about who killed Asmodean? it was obvious that Semirhage did it.<br /><br />RJ... I thought it was obvious.<br /><br />sounds to me like semi was the killer unless RJ was just going along with the questioner.


created: 2002-08-08 15:06:13
subject: <b>Rand teaching Taim?</b>
body:
Of course he taught Taim the gateway but considering Taim was watching him weave it i dont think he had much choice. But other then that i dont see much evidence to lead me to believe rand is teaching taim much of anything. With Rands hatred/fear of Taim always seems to me he cant stand to be around him, unless of course Taim's &quot;private lessons&quot; are lead by Rand which is highly unlikely. I would think with Rands distrust of Taim the last thing he would want to do is teach him things to be able to track Rand. Speaking of which, if that were the case when Rand returned to Caemlyn to get Nyneave in WH Taim would have known immediately and sent some people after him. I would have to think Rand and Taim meeting to teach each other new ways to use the power would be a little too important for RJ to leave for us to read between the lines.


created: 2002-08-08 15:36:51
subject: <b>I made a bad mistake, sorry everyone.</b>
body:
I just looked up the RJ interview that i earlier pointed to, and it was actually close to 2 years ago. RJ said Graendal not Semi. I have no idea why i was thinking it was Semirhage. The interview was done by CNN back in dec of 2000. Sorry.


created: 2002-08-08 23:52:21
subject: <b>RJ's comment</b>
body:
The comment about Graendel was edited in afterwards...The original question that RJ answered had nothing about Graendel in it at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />  I am the Uncrowned King  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  I am a Diaemed Battle Lord  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Tis but a flesh wound!!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 12:13:23
subject: <b>To Uncrowned King</b>
body:
Thanks for the above post.  I didn't know that the Graendal tag post inserted on a post-edit.  I think this may lessen the possibility (in my mind, anyway) that Granny killed Asmo.  Besides, being that I still think it was Lanfear, anything that casts doubt on Graendal's involvement is cool with me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 12:16:29
subject: <b>About Graendal.</b>
body:
The text of the interview was thus:<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? <i>Graendal killed him. </i><br /><br />Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me. </b></font><br /><br />The italicized part was added. It wasn't part of it. Ask Vercingetorix about this. He frequents WoTMania. We've had a discussion about this acutally. If you want to see it go here:<br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/messageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=228131<br /><br />Be warned, it is long and the debate afterwards is even longer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 12:20:51
subject: <b>Teaching.</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Of course he taught Taim the gateway but considering Taim was watching him weave it i dont think he had much choice. But other then that i dont see much evidence to lead me to believe rand is teaching taim much of anything. ... I would think with Rands distrust of Taim the last thing he would want to do is teach him things to be able to track Rand. </b></font><br /><br />Alright, I'll post my evidence that Taim and Rand were teaching each other. I'm going to do it on a separate theory though (and on the message board). I don't want the discussion here to veer away from its original purpose.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 01:17:29
subject: <b>Thanks Ciel</b>
body:
for the above link.  I am most interested in your theory about Rand and Taim teaching each other <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 16:41:48
subject: <b>I posted it...</b>
body:
The link for Rand teaching Taim is:<br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/messageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=359667<br /><br />Enjoy the &quot;discussion&quot; too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 00:10:56
subject: <b>I'm not so sure...</b>
body:
about any connection being able to be established between Graendal and Taim.  Nowhere in this encounter is there anything to specifically link the GM with Sammael, and it is Rand who suggests such a possible origin, not Taim.<br /> However, I realy like the idea that Taim was already there, before Rand, but once again, I'd like to know why.  This does provide a good explanation as to why Rand didn't sense any gateway when Taim arrived, but as it is so early in the morning, it seems highly unlikely Taim would have just been waiting there for Rand to appear.<br /> This leaves two options, as far as I can see.  The first is some conection between Taim and one of the female forsaken, who both provided the GM and provided a gateway for Taim to travel through.  However, I'm of the opinion that Rand would still have felt the chill which goes with feeling a woman channeling, as he does when Aviendha embraces the source in this same passage.  So this seems unlikely, to me.<br />  The second option is one which I've written a theory of my own about; that Taim is one of the Forsaken, namely Moridin.  That would explain Rand not sensing his channeling and also his use of the GM.  I still hold to this idea, myself.<br /> I don't think Taim setting wards is very likely, for the same reasons as given above.  This passage remains most intriguing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 00:13:30
subject: <b>Matrim Taim, Graendal Boy Toy</b>
body:
I agree with theory but why can't Taim be Graendal's from at least after TDR, when Ishy's gone?  Graendal's compulsion would definately explain many of Taim's personality quirks.  Shave love slave! I don't like beards!<br />Would also explain the duplicate order's for the Fearsome Foursome after the Forsaken Tea Party.<br />Graendal order's Taim, Demmy order's the Foursome he's been working with...but don't let Graendal's M'hael know he gave the orders.  Moridin then order's the Foursome, but bring everything to me.  Three different order's from three different Forsaken.<br />


created: 2002-08-31 15:16:56
subject: <b>I don't think that a Female Forsaken opened a Gateway for Taim.</b>
body:
Because Avhiendha would have felt a female channeling that much of the power, and would have said something, because there were Aes Sedai in Caemlyn that she knew Rand didn't trust. Also, I don't understand how people can disagree with this theory so quickly. I mean, we all know that Graendal is/was a premier psychologist in the AOL; she schemes like most people breathe. And we know that she definitely did not like having to bow down to Sammael; she thought he was an idiot. She wanted to use him for her own schemes, and she was pissed when she thought that he'd been promised Nae'blis status by the DO. She arranged the Gray Man incident, point blank. Everyone knows the best way to start a fight between two people is to punch one and say that the other did it. That's what the GM amounted to. She took a swing at Rand, and made it look like Sammael did it. Doesn't take much thinking folks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />DWarder<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 16:02:21
subject: <b>I half agree</b>
body:
I agree that the sisters that joined the Borderland armies seem to have a purpose of some sort, and that Cadsuane may well have something to do with them.<br />    However, I don't really see a lot of evidence that the same holds true for the sisters at the Silver Swan. I suspect that they've just congregated and are waiting to hear about the future of the Tower before doing anything - it would make sense to do this in a city like Caemlyn where it would be easier to get news.<br />       Seia Cair<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 16:22:55
subject: <b>This overlooks Glimmers (slight Glimmers spoiler)</b>
body:
Without getting into detail, there is in Glimmers an insinuation of an as-yet unrevealed third (or if buying the Cadsuane theory, fourth) Aes Sedai group that is neither neutral, Pro-Elaida, pro-rebel, tied to Rand nor (so far as is known) Black.<br /><br />It is entirely possible that this third group is responsible for the unexplained Aes Sedai.  I have a theory I am too lazy to write up about exactly what this third group is up to.  In its conservative form, the theory would mean a bloodless reunification of the Tower.  In it's agressive form, the theory would mean the Red Ajah is done.  I leave it to those of you who have read Glimmers to sort through those implications.<br /><br />But, in support of the agressive form, no more taint means no more use for the Red Ajah, and there are several signs that their demise is imminent: Galina being Black (truth will out on that one), Elaida's doomed coup and whatever that 'messy business' 20 years ago was (I take it from New Spring it was some kind of Herodesque baby butchering).  Add to that that Thom has an axe to grind against the Reds and it looks like RJ is laying the groundwork for those threads to tighten like a noose around the Red Ajah's neck.<br /><br />Anyway, that's what I think, and hope.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">John B. Towers<br />Attorney, Reader &amp; Occasional Decent Human Being<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 16:27:15
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I very much liked your theory, canolli.  It was one of the few long theories that I was able to read entirely.  It even had a fair amount of meat.<br /><br />I think you make a strong case for the Silver Swan AS being part of Cadsuanes cadre.  I have often wondered if that wasn't the case, myself.  It fits very well as far as I can tell with Cadsuane's timeline.  <br /><br />I think your case for the Borderland AS is weaker although it might fit with Cadsuane's timeline.  It is very plausible, though.  She was chasing after Taim at one point.<br /><br />The only weakness that I can think of is a PoV from Cadsuane.  Just after Sorilea taught her to travel she thought that she was itching to try it out but had nowhere to go-because she didn't know where Rand was.  I know if I had a group of AS in Caemlyn I would be itching to visit them.  The borderlander AS would be hard to find.  <br /><br />Hopefully these other AS will come into the picture soon.<br /><br />You have earned you 50 wSE points.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-12 17:10:04
subject: <b>Good idea's here,</b>
body:
but I'm not sure if this is true.  As to a third active group that the previous poster mentioned, (the one before Rabid Wombat) where is this hinted at?  There isn't any evidence in Glimmers of another faction.


created: 2002-08-13 01:29:40
subject: <b>The Ajah Head faction</b>
body:
Remember what the Tower Ajah Heads were up to? There is some suggestion they have been collaborating with the Salidar Ajah Heads over the Sitters. IMHO this seems unlikely as one would think the Tower Heads would regard the Salidar Heads as upstarts and usurpers to be taken down ASAP. You can't have two, after all. Of course, the fact that Myrelle is only 15 years AS almost implies a collaboration over the election of Ajah Heads, as well...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-13 12:49:35
subject: <b>Good theory, but I do not buy it.</b>
body:
I think it is _very_ unlikely. There is mention in Winter's Heart that the White Tower has been divided before, albeit not to such an extent as now. Egwene remembers what she has been told by Siuan about the year of the four Amyrlins, when there were two Halls of the Tower.<br />


created: 2002-08-13 14:53:16
subject: <b>Thanks for the feedback</b>
body:
I read Glimmers before posting this theory, and it seems to me the as yet unrevealed Ajah-heads conspiricy is more focused on Tower politics.  Heck, all Aes Sedai are more focused on the civil war than actually trying to do something about the degeneration of the status quo, something the Tower has spent 3,000 years trying to maintain.  It was the Tower's inactiviy that motivated the Borderlanders' march south, feeling (probably correctly) that someone has to take things in hand.  The Ajah heads are probably more focused on making sure the Tower heals up properly afterwards, and that there are lines of communication between the two sides, much the same way Aiel warrior societies interact despite blood fueds between clans.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 00:05:48
subject: <b>Interesting Theory, and to add to it, what about Erian Boroleos?</b>
body:
I don't know if this has been discussed on Wotmania or not, I am sure it has, but anyway, there was an unaccounted sister that was with Cadsuane when they left Far Madding. Here is the exact text on this in the Wheel of Time FAQ at http://www.linuxmafia.com. The link to where this portion is: http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.7_generalities/2.7.6_missteps.html<br />In the section named &quot;Missteps, errors along the way&quot;<br /><br />&lt;BEGIN WOT FAQ RIPOFF&gt;Dame Not-Appearing-In-This-Battle: What happened to Erian Boroleos at the end of WH? She was in Cadsuane's Company when they went to Far Madding [WH: 23, To Lose the Sun, 452]. She went with Rand to Shadar Logoth; in [WH: 35, With the Choedan Kal, 630], Rand tallies up the members of his party, noting &quot;Verin and the other five Aes Sedai who had sworn to him, and the four who were Cadsuane's companions.&quot; The &quot;other five&quot; are Elza Penfel, Nesune Bihara, Beldeine Nyram, Sarene Nemdahl, and Erian Boroleos. Cad's Cadre is Daigian Moseneillin, Corele Hovian, Merise, and Kumira (who do not seem to have last names). But Erian apparently takes no part in the battle at Shadar Logoth, even though her Warders, Nethan and Bassane, are mentioned (scouting with Lan).<br />The circles formed during the Cleansing were: <br /><br />Elza, Merise and Narishma; <br />Daigian, Hopwil, Nesune and Beldeine; <br />Verin, Kumira and Shalon; <br />Flinn, Corele and Sarene. <br /><br />One could argue that Cadsuane simply decided not to use Erian in a circle, like Alivia, but then why does Elza think, &quot;Verin and Kumira even made a circle with the Sea Folk wilder; she was actually quite strong, and everyone had to be used&quot; [WH: 35, With the Choedan Kal, 639, emphasis mine]. So if they'll use Shalon, wouldn't a Green like Erian come in handy too? Plus it's clear from the rest of that page that Alivia and Cadsuane were the only two channellers who were not intended to be in a circle. Looks like RJ forgot about Erian. [Sydo Zandstra]&lt;END WOT FAQ RIPOFF&gt;<br /><br />Ok, so maybe Erian wasn't as forgotten as is suggested by this observation, maybe she went off, sent by Cadsuane, to inform one of these groups of the latest happenings?<br /><br />Just more food for thought <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. Personally, this theory is above me, I really haven't paid that much attention to all these Aes Sedai, and I salute you for keeping them all straight Cannoli , let alone coming up with a theory about them. This lost Aes Sadai with Cadsuane, that never went to the showdown in the final chapter of WH just popped into my head when I read this, and thought I would add it into the discussion, maybe somebody else can do something better with it then I <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 00:10:13
subject: <b>well seconds posted, and I already see an error in what I said</b>
body:
Erian Boroleos was one of the Aes Sedai that swore to Rand. Not one of Cadsuane's group. I suppose it could still work, but not like I said before. Unless of course, Cadsuane trusted her enough to deliver a message but not enough to bring her along with them. I dunno, anyway, just catching my own mistake before somebody else did. I had to read this theory twice, slowly, and I am still scratching my head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 04:32:12
subject: <b>If you looked in _our_ FAQ...</b>
body:
We have a long discussion on where Erian could be. I know. I wrote most of it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />But seriously, a quote pinpoints her leaving Far Madding, so she left the city....it is doubtful Cadsuane would trust her - she only let her and the others come because they begged, and wouldn't let them bring their Warders! She's Rand's, and Cadsuane knows it. So I don't think Caddy would use her as a go-between, or let her in on her plans.. Still doesn't tell us where she _is_....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 08:42:38
subject: <b>Sorry Ruriha Sedai</b>
body:
I went looking though the Wotmania FAQ last night and must have missed that big right up you did. Thats why I quoted the other FAQ. I guess we will just have to wait for COT for what really happened to her, I am almost sure RJ will clear it up for us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 22:42:17
subject: <b>13 BA</b>
body:
I disagree.  I don't see Cadsuane allowing the Borderlander's to take such a large army south and add to the problems already there.  Also, I can't see Cadsuane or any non-black AS weakening the blight's front line defense when they know the Dragon is Reborn and the Last Battle is coming.  <br />Coladara, Illeisen, and the other 11 AS are BA...13 AS needed to capture and turn Rand.


created: 2002-08-16 10:42:24
subject: <b>Boarderlands</b>
body:
Y' know a lot has been made about the boarderlands being ripe for an invasion, and it does seem like a good case for forshadowing. But I just remembered when Deamndred went to Shayoul Ghoul, and thought to hemself how he had never seen fewer victims there to make swords, and how the mydraal must be going crazy with the lack of victims (paraphrasing) Hardly sounds like conditions suitable for preparing for an invasion. Just thought I'd mention that. It has nothing to do with the AS. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 21:34:27
subject: <b>Re:Borderlands</b>
body:
The reason for fewer soul sacrifices is the DO has stopped the raids south...several characters have stated the blight has never been this quiet.  And just because the shadow's armies don't have a large amount of DO tainted weapons doesn't mean they don't have normal weapons. <br />Besides, what better way to get more victims than to influence the borderlander's armies to march south and have the trollocs invade the weakened borderland's and capture victims for the forges.  Not just foreshadowing...a good strategy.


created: 2003-01-07 18:20:16
subject: <b>I was right, partially!</b>
body:
Crossroads of Twilight, pg. 309!  I was right about the sisters in the Silver Swan.  Got to go finish the book now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 18:33:13
subject: <b>not bad</b>
body:
this theory is well thought out, intellegent, and I at least thought it was convincing. I don't know if it's true or not but it don't see why all those people voted against it.


created: 2003-08-06 10:31:29
subject: <b>LETTING the borderlanders...?</b>
body:
Cadsuane states in CoT that you can't solve every problem yourself, and is letting the political things in Tear work out without her help.  Even if she is aware of what the borderlanders are up to, how could she possibly turn aside an army that large, led by four very determined monarchs.  Even if doing the impossible is Cadsuane's stock in trade, she is concentrating mostly on Rand, because she understands that who is in charge of what country (or the Tower) matters very little in the face of impending Last Battles.  I doubt she sent the sisters to the borderlands saying &quot;Oh and if they try to lead a massive army south, stop them.&quot;  No one could imagine the rulers doing this, and only the fact that they are plainly gone from their countries let Elayne believe they were in Braem Wood when she heard the news.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 16:30:02
subject: <b>I agree..</b>
body:
Cadsuane is far more prepared than people think.<br /><br />Almost 300 years of doing what she does makes her almost ucanny with how well thought out her <i>campaigns</i>  are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 15:25:04
subject: <b>i don't agree...</b>
body:
I thought the same thing after seeing Masema in his actions toward Perrin when Perrin comes to reign him in.  But when I went back and reread tEotW &amp; tGH, I remember there being a scene when the Sheinarans are all in awe of him because they saw him in the sky during their battle.  The description of Masema's fervor during that exchange makes me think that that's not faked...which is the reason I discarded the idea...<br />I guess that's not very convincing, but I don't see any real proof except that his actions are in line with the Dark One's commands.  I think another thing is that I believe that meeting was before the Dark One said to let the Lord of Chaos rule and was when the Dark One was still trying to kill him... so it sounds unlikely that no attempt on Rand's life was taken at the time.  More likely, the Shienaran was just another Shienaran... not one we know like Masema... despite his actions...


created: 2002-08-18 15:26:52
subject: <b>Good Try</b>
body:
I'll give you that it is an original idea but there are a couple of points to consider.  <br /><br />One thing I was proud of back when I went through Book 2 for the second time I noticed in the 1st chapter when Lan and Rand are on the tower, Lan sees Ingtar coming out of the forest and comments to Rand on page 9, &quot;Ingtar is with them.&quot; (Them being approaching Aes Sedai)&quot;Been gone long enough. I wonder if he had any luck?&quot;<br />So apparently Ingtar was out hunting by himself for days?<br />Sounds like a good cover to sneak off to Shayol Ghul to me.<br />And it does say in Book 2 that Masema doesn't like Rand becuase he looks like an Aiel and Masema fought them during the Aiel War.<br />


created: 2002-08-18 15:40:39
subject: <b>Wasn't he a lord?</b>
body:
Wasn't the Shienaran that was at the meeting of darkfriends identified as a Sheinaran because he was wearing the coat of a Sheinaran Lord?  That would point to Ingtar over Masema.  If Masema was smart enough to disguise himself, you would think he would go non-Shienaran all the way...


created: 2002-08-18 15:44:18
subject: <b>As a matter of fact, Balefireboy...</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure you're right about Lan telling Rand that Masema didn't care for people who looked Aiel, but I didn't have the book in front of me and I wasn't certain.  I'll count your remembering the same thing as a vote in my favor, though.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><i>Queen of the TP</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 00:58:22
subject: <b>Your first point</b>
body:
seems rather week to me, in fact I would say it says exactly the opposite of how you interpret it:<br /> <br />&lt;The Dark Friend in the prologue, on the other hand, seems much more involved in the Dark One's agenda. First, he is &#8220;invited&#8221; to what seems to be a high level meeting, and second, upon hearing that the Dragon has been reborn he asks, &#8220;We are to kill him, Great Lord?&#8221; This does not sound like someone of Ingtar&#8217;s thinking, but rather a hardcore Friend of the Dark.&gt;<br /><br />I took this as Ingtar, a guy who has gone to the shadow, but isn't totally sold on the idea (he does go back to the light) is in shock that he realizes that he has been ordered to kill the one man who would bring salvation to him. It's like he actually realizes at this point what he has gotten himself into, he made a move witch he thought was for the best, ala joining the dark side, but then when he is faced with it's ultimate reality, he second guesses himself (we are really supposed to kill the Dragon?), and in the end, changes his mind, as we see at the end of book 2, when he gives his life to protect Rand and the others. <br /><br />Other then that, the other points work to a point, but I still don't think so. It was foreshadowing for one of the main chars of book 2, nothing more.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 02:54:48
subject: <b>Somethng that bugged me</b>
body:
Since we're on the topic, (sort of), didn't anyone else think it is odd that Moiraine was also AWOL during that meeting??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 06:49:54
subject: <b>agree a little</b>
body:
I think that it is more likely Masema. But I do not think it was Ingtar.<br /><br />The book 2 paperback pg 653.<br /><br />&quot;I never knew what he was going to do,&quot; Ingtar said softly, as if talking to himself. He had his sword out, testing the edge with his thumb. &quot;A pale little man you didn't seem to really notice even when you were looking at him. Take him inside Fal Dara, I was told, inside the fortress. I did not want to, but I had to do it . You understand? I had to. I never knew what he intended until he shot that arrow. I still don't know if it was meant for the Amyrlin, or for you.&quot;<br /><br />He said all this. Do you not think that he might of mentioned a big room of people all covered up with pictures of Rand, Mat and Perrin and some fella they thought might be the dark one himself saying remember these faces?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lurker Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />mother to siamese cats Monty and Cleo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 07:09:36
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
Ingtar was not the df in the prologue. I too hope it was Masema. And the instructions &quot;let the lord of chaos rule&quot; came from DO itself while the other orders given in the beginning of the prologue were given by Ishmael.


created: 2002-08-19 10:22:19
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
I don't see how Ingtar, conflicted as he was would be invited to a high level df meeting and trusted with an assignment of such importance.  When talking to Rand he mentions how he just had to let someone in the gates..blah blah blah.  Now that it's been pointed out I can see that Masema's behavior does indeed fit in with someone who was at the df social.


created: 2002-08-19 10:25:45
subject: <b>Let the Lord of chaos rule</b>
body:
That was said to the  forsaken, not every darkfriend. it was not told to Masema.<br /><br />And by what we see of masema the Prophet, he is crazy, heaten, not a darkfriend (he might be, but he's not acting the role). Darkfriends are always undercover, hiding, while he is displaying himself.<br /><br />the shienarian was a Lord, strong and used to carry weapons, as &quot;Bors&quot; says. that's a lot more like Ingtar than Masema, who doesn't even look like a guard. and like someone pointed out, the images displayed by Ishy of the three boys were forgotten but hiden in the df's memories. the order to get the little man in must have come later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 11:33:41
subject: <b>Now, I don't have the books in front of me...</b>
body:
But as aforementioned, the DF was wearing a coat of Shinerian cut. Now, wasn't the coat the same color as Ingtar's house sigil?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 12:12:20
subject: <b>Masema is Demandred's proxy</b>
body:
I don't really have an opinion about the DF in the prologue - it could be Ingtar, it could simply be a higher ranking DF who gave Ingtar the order to let the Gray Man in.  I just remember it was a Lord.  I don't think we'll ever know much more about that DF meeting, unless we can figure out more things when/if we know what Ishamael was really planning.<br /><br /><br />But I think Masema truly had this huge religious-like revelation at the end of GH, and really thinks he's the Prophet of the Dragon reborn.<br /><br />Let's look at the Forsaken distribution pattern in the beginning. Remember that Ishamael initially more or less bossed everyone - most of all Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana and Demandred who were all involved directly in his plan.  Mesaana/Semirhage couldn't even be where they were without his active help and approval.<br /><br />Also remember that except for Lanfear, the Forsaken showed little interest in Rand before the end of TGH at the earliest, hinting that Rand was really Ishamael's pet project, quite possibly secret until Lanfear started to meddle, and the others followed.<br /><br />- Graendal was put in Arad Doman, weakening it by war and chaotic orders from the King.<br />- Moghedien was in Tarabon or nearby, perhaps on her own or more likely she initially had the task to weaken it too.<br />- Be'lal was taking control of Tear<br />- Sammael was in Illian  <br /><br />Semirhage was of course with the Return and the DOTNM who would rule the Westlands.<br /><br />This means almost all of the South and West coasts were Forsaken-controlled and ready for the arrival of the Seanchan, while further North East the key locations to continue this conquest of the Westlands, Andor and Tar Valon, were also in the hands of Forsaken (or shortly to be, it wasn't as urgent as the Coast).  Mesaana and the BA were supposed to advance in the Tower hierarchy in prevision of TG by killing Siuan Sanche unsuspiciously in Fal Dara (which failed and eventually lead to the Breaking of the Tower fiasco after Ishamael's death - something Moridin is about to clean up using Halima).  Rahvin was establishing himself in Andor more or less at the time.<br /><br />There were possibly three gaps to fill : Saldaea above Arad Doman that could eventually come to repel the Seanchan in AD, the Gealdan/Amadicia/Ebou Dar area, and Cairhien/Far Madding/Murandy.<br /><br />This makes me think that Asmodean was working with Graendal (he told Rand he knew Graendal's whereabouts in Arad Doman), possibly he was the one in Saldaea but it's not so vital as I think Ishamael planned to simply overun the Borderlands from the Blight in a pincer once the Seanchan reached Andor or Tar Valon.  Either that or most of the Borderlands' AS advisors are Black Ajah.<br /><br />Lanfear was quite possibly supposed to take care of the King of Cairhien and start a war with Andor or Tear (similar to the plan in the West), but she left &quot;home&quot; very early and went to Fal Dara instead to spy on Ishamael's little plan ongoing there. <br /><br />This leaves Demandred.  I think he got the command of the Amadicia/Gealdan region, where much of the havoc would be wrecked though military operations lead by proxies, a speciality of his.<br /><br />TGH and Falme changed everything and set loose many ambitions.  Ishamael was wounded.  The Seanchan were thrown back to sea.  Rand was revealed as the Dragon Reborn.  In short, by liberating Padan Fain and sending him in the middle of her &quot;friends'&quot; invasion at Falme, with all the ensuing consequences, Lanfear has quite succesfully thwarted Ishamael's plans. No wonder she ended up in a mindtrap eventually.<br /><br />From there, Ishamael's authority was undermined and his sanity even more questionned.  With the Seanchan invasion repelled, the others started to establish power bases instead of using their positions to weaken their host country for the Seanchan, as presumably Ishamael wanted.  Many of them also became frightened by Rand Al'thor, or curious about him one way or another.  <br /><br />It's at that moment that various B plans regarding Rand started to emerge, while Ishamael thrived to take control back.  He eventually panicked, rushed toward &quot;the Fisher&quot; and lost his life, a mistake he won't make again as Moridin (who orders the Forsaken but also plays the game from the other side, in their backs).  <br /><br />I think Falme is the moment Demandred chose to start a side plan of his own.  Rand and co. camped within his presumed zone of activity.  <br /><br />I think Demandred spied on Rand's camp a lot (remember the many ravens and shadowspawn) and noticed Masema.  When Masema was sent away by Moiraine, I think Demandred stepped in and started to control the Prophet, making him more and more crazy through &quot;visions&quot; in fact coming from T'A'R or through Compulsion (or both).  He used Masema to further wreck his zone of influence (as he still worked with Semirhage and Graendal) and also to undermine Rand himself by soiling the Dragonsworn' reputation.  Later on, I think he also grabbed another proxy in Saldaea with help from Mesaana and the Black Ajah : Mazrim Taim, that he sent to Rand in Caemlyn where he would thwart Rand's plans regarding the male channelers.  <br /><br />Sammael didn't fail to notice Demandred's &quot;touch&quot; in the South, that's why he spread so many of his Shaido from Tear to Tarabon : to bug Demandred/Semirhage's plans.  <br /><br />I hope my theories about Masema and Demandred are close to the real deal, because if so, with the action involving Valda and the remnants of the White Cloaks, Masema with Perrin, Taim vs. Logain, the results of Graendal old letters in AD... COT should really be the Demandred book, or at least be the Semirhage/Mesaana/Demandred book as the fate of the DOTNM and the White Tower conflict are also on the agenda. Unsurprisingly, they are the three allies and the ones not really &quot;tamed&quot; by Moridin yet.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-08-19 13:02:15
subject: <b>Ingtar not Masema...</b>
body:
It was Ingtar at the meeting not Masema.  At the DF meeting he was described as Wearing a YELLOW Sheinarian coat.  Ingtar wears a yellow coat of the same description.  Also as someone earlier has pointed out,  Lan notes on Ingtar's return that he has been gone to long.<br /><br />As to Masema being a p$%@$.  Uno mentions later that Masema has always been a p$%@$.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-19 14:28:01
subject: <b>Forsaken Disguises</b>
body:
In all the arguments and discussions about how Forsaken could pass themselves off as other people, the strong linchpin and weakpoint has been their inability to adequately mimic the personality and mannerisms of the person they have replaced.  <br /><br />However, of primary pro/antagonists, Masema is I believe the only one who underwent a severe personality change. This has been excused and wrapped up as fervor (however mis-applied) for the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />That is the perfect cover for an impersonating Forsaken.<br /><br />We KNOW Demandred is very clever (clever enough to take advantage of such a situation).  It is strongly suggested that he is in the south.  It has been reiterated that he likes using proxies.  <br /><br />We KNOW Masema does not like anything whatsoever of channeling going on around him (since he became the Prophet, at least).  And Jordan has deftly guided channelers away from him, partly with this plot device. This could only help preserve his cover.  And we know Masema does not do thinks directly; he issues orders (like a general!) -- i.e., uses proxies.  And we know his actions are actually destructive to the DR, not helpful, and that they undermine (cause chaos) what Rand is doing. Lastly, he's never remotely possibly been exposed to Min and her viewings (not that he could've planned that, but handy on RJ's part).  <br /><br />Oh, and we know Masema is suddenly incredibly charismatic, when before he'd been a hateful SOB (clear indication of Compulsion at work).<br /><br />No other persona fits Demandred's profile so well, or covers itself against weaknesses so well, as posing as Masema.  There are other strong theories out there, but none of them are so armored against the possible weaknesses faced. <br /><br />Demandred is Masema. <br /><br />(Dang, shoulda posted this as a theory)


